0 ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT URBANA-CHAMPAIGN PRODUCTION NOTE University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Library Brittle Books Project, 2015.COPYRIGHT NOTIFICATION In Public Domain. Published prior to 1923. This digital copy was made from the printed version held by the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. It was made in compliance with copyright law. Prepared for the Brittle Books Project, Main Library, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign by Northern Micrographics Brookhaven Bindery La Crosse, Wisconsin 2015UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LIBRARY Book VolumeREPORTS FROM COMMISSIONERS, INSPECTORS. AND OTHERS: TWENTY-SEVEN VOLUMES. — a.)— ALIEN IMMIGRATION (ROYAL COMMISSION). Session 17 February 1903 -- 14 August 1903. VOL. IX. 1 9 0 3. -t~BEPOETS FROM COMMISSIONERS, INSPECTORS, AND OTHERS : 1 9 03. TWENTY-SEVEN VOLUMES:—CONTENTS OF THE FIRST VOLUME. N.B.— THE Figures at the beginning of the line correspond with the N° at the loot of each Report; and the Figures at the end of the line, refer to the MS. Paging of the Volumes arranged for The House of Commons. ALIEN IMMIGRATION (ROYAL COMMISSION) : [Cd. 1741.] Report of the Royal Commission on Alien Immigration ; with Minutes of Evidence, and Appendix : Vol. I. The Report. p. 1 [Cd. 1742.] Yol. II. Minutes of Evidence. 61 [Cd. 1741-1.] Yol. III. Appendix to Minutes of Evidence. 935 [Cd. 1743.] Yol. IY. Index and Analysis to Minutes of Evidence. 1041 Vol. IX,—1903. 1383:50ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION, WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND APPENDIX. Vol. I. THE REPORT, fJresenteb to both Douses of Parliament bp (Eommant) of |jis ^lajesttt. LONDON: PRINTED FOR HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE, By DARLING & SON, Ltd., 34-40, Bacon Street, E. And to be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from WYMAN and SONS, Ltd., Fetter Lane, E.C., and 32, Abingdon Street, Westminster, S.W.; or OLIVER & BOYD, Edinburgh ; or E. PONSONBY, 116, Grafton Street, Dublin. [Cd. 1741.] 1903. jReprinted 1905.[ iii ] ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. VOLUME I. TABLE OF CONTENTS. page. Members of the Royal Commission ... ... ... ... ... ... ... v Terms of Reference......................................, ...... v Warrant ............ ••• .............................vii Report :— Part L—Character and Extent of the Eyil. I. Area of Duty ........................... 1 IT. Short Historical Review of Alien Immigration ... ..... ... 1 III. Causes of present wave of Immigration ... ............ 3 IY. Previous Legislative action ..................... 4 V. Evils attributed to Alien Immigration ............... 5 YI. Acts in force ........................... 6 YII. Medical Examination at port of embarkation ............ 8 VIII. Methods now employed in respect of Aliens on arrival in London ... 8 IX. Treatment of Aliens on arrival .... ............... 9 X. Condition of Aliens on arrival..........................................10 XI. Undesirable Aliens .. ..........................................12 XII. Census and Board of Trade statistics ... ... ... ... ... ... 12 XIII. Statistical tables ... ...... ............ ............14 XIV. Number of persons unemployed in different trades ... ... ... 15 XV. Pauperism......................................15 XV[. Alien criminality............... ........................17 XVII. Industrial and economic aspects of Alien Immigration ... ............19 XVIII. Aliens in other countries .......................................20 XIX. Cattlemen...............................21 i XX. Naturalised Aliens ... * ..........................................21 XXI. Condition of Aliens after arrival in this country ........................2% XXII. Overcrowding ......... ... ... ..........................22 Part II.—Measures Adopted for the Restriction and Control of Alien Immigration in Foreign Countries, and in British Colonies. European Law General............. ......... ........................28 German Empire............ ....................................28 Prussia ......... ..........................................29 Bavaria ... ........... ....................................29 Baden ..................... ..................29 Hamburg ...... ................................................29 Alsace Lorraine ...... ... ....................................29 Wurtemberg ............ ..............................29 1000 Wt 28380 2/05 d & S 32 20638e a 2[ iv ] European Law—con tinned. page. Switzerland ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 29 France ..............................................29 Austria ... ... ... ... ...... ... ... ... ... ... 30 Hungary ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 30 Italy ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 30 Russia ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 30 Conclusions drawn from Continental Law ... ... ... ... ... ... 30 Regulation of Aliens affected by International Law and Treaties ... ... ... 31 Law of the United States ... .........................................32 Historical Sketch of Acts regulating Immigration...... ..................32 Giounds for exclusion......................................................33 Working of the Law ... ,.. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 33 Contract labour ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 34 Immigration through Canada ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 35 Unsatisfactory administration of the law .........................35 Deterrent effect of the law ................................................35 Colonial Legislation Not directed against Aliens as such .......................35 Immigration Laws of— Canada ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 36 Natal... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 37 Cape of Good Hope ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 38 Australia ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 38 New Zealand ...... ... ............... ... 38 Tasmania ............................................................38 Effect of Colonial legislation ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 38 The Channel Islands........................ ...........39 Immigrants returned from America and Canada ... ... ... ... ... 39 Results of Inquiry ....................................................40 Recommendations ............ ....................................40 Reservations to the above, signed by Sir Kenelm Digby..................45 Reservations to the above, signed by Lord Rothschild..................52[ V ] MEMBERS OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION. The Right Honourable The Lord James of Hereford. The Right Honourable The Lord Rothschild. The Honourable Alfred E. Lyttelton, K.C., M.P. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, K.C.B. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, M.P. Mr. Henry Norman, M.P. Mr. William Yallance. Mr. F. E. Eddis, Secretary. Mr. F. "W. Perrett, Assistant Secretary. TERMS OF REFERENCE. 'To inquire into— (1.) The character and extent of the evils which are attributed to the unrestricted immigration of Aliens, especially in the Metropolis; (2.) The measures which have been adopted for the restriction and control of Alien Immigration in Foreign Countries, and in British Colonies.[ vii ] WARRANT. EDWARD R. iEttkMrtr tije by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas King, Defender of the Faith, To Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Councillor Henry, Baron James of Hereford, Chancellor of our Duchy and County Palatine of Lancaster; (Chairman.) Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Nathaniel Mayer, Baron Rothschild; Our Trusty and Well-beloved Alfred Lyttelton, Esquire, (commonly called the Honourable Alfred Lyttelton), one of Our Counsel learned in the Law; Our Trusty and Well-beloved Sir Kenelm Edward Digby, Knight Commander of Our Most Honourable Order of the Bath, one of the Under Secretaries of State to Our Principal Secretary of State for the Home Department; Our Trusty and Well-beloved William Eden Evans-Gordon, Esquire, Major, on the Retired List of Our Army; Our Trusty and Well-beloved Henry Norman, Esquire, and Our Trusty and Well-beloved William Vallance, Esquire, Clerk to the Guardians of Whitechapel, Greeting. We have deemed it expedient that a Commission should forthwith issue to inquire into and report upon:— (1) The character and extent of the evils which are attributed to the unrestricted immigration of Aliens, especially in the Metropolis : (2) The measures which have been adopted for the restriction and control of Alien Immigration in Foreign Countries, and in British Colonies : and to advise what remedial or precautionary measures it is desirable to adopt in this country, having regard to the above matters and to the absence of any statutory power to exclude or expel any individual Alien or class of Aliens from its borders. , ftttflto gC that We, reposing great trust and confidence in your knowledge and ability, have authorised and appointed, and do by these presents authorise and appoint you, the said Henry, Baron James of Hereford; Nathaniel Mayer, Baron Rothschild; Alfred Lyttelton; Sir Kenelm Edward Digby; William Eden Evans-Gordon; Henry Norman and William Vallance to be Our Commissioners for the purposes of the said inquiry. UttiJ for the better effecting the purposes of this Our Commission, We do by these presents give and grant unto you, or any three or more of you, full power to call before you such persons as you shall judge likely to afford you any information upon the subject of this Our Commission; and also to call for, have access to and examine all such books, documents, registers and records as may afford you the fullest information on the subject, and to inquire of and concerning the premises by all other lawful ways and means whatsoever. Royal Commission on Alien Immigration.[ viii ] iEttif we do by these presents authorise and empower yon, or any three or more of you, to visit and personally inspect such places as you may deem it expedient so to inspect for the more effectual carrying out of the purposes, aforesaid; and to employ such persons as you may think fit to assist you in conducting any inquiry which you may hold. SUtttl we do by these presents will and ordain that this Our Commission shall continue in full force and virtue, and that you our said Commissioners, or any three or more of you, may from time to time proceed in the execution thereof, and of every matter and thing therein contained, although the same be not continued from time to time by adjournment. En* we do further ordain that you, or any three or more of you, have liberty to report your proceedings under this Our Commission from time to time if you shall judge it expedient so to do. Uttt) our further will and pleasure is that you do, with as little delay as possible, report to us, under your hands and seals, or under the hands and seals of any three or more of you, your opinion upon the matters herein sub- mitted for your consideration. Given at Our Court at Saint James's, the 21st day of March, 1902; in the Second Year of Our Reign. (Signed) CHARLES T. RITCHIE, By His Majesty's Command.-f i. ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. REPORT TO HIS MAJESTY KING EDWARD VII. May it please Your Majesty. 1. We, the Commissioners mentioned in Your Majesty's Oonimission above set out, humbly beg permission to present this, our Report to Your Majesty. 2. In pursuance of the commands contained in the Commission, we pro- ceeded to hear the evidence of witnesses. We 'commenced our sittings on April 24th, 1902, and held in all 49 public sittings. We examined 175 witnesses, and received much information contained in the Tables, Reports, and other Documents, set out in this Report. We held two evening sittings within the Borough of Stepney, for the purpose of hearing many witnesses who found it difficult to attend the ordinary sittings of the Commission. 3. One of our body, Major Evans-Gordon, visited many places, principally in Russia and Poland, for the purpose of obtaining information bearing upon the subjects submitted to us for consideration. The very valuable report Evans-Gordon, made by Major Evans-Gordon is submitted with this Report. 13,349. 4. The Secretary to the Commission, Mr. F. E. Eddis, also visited Rotter- Eddis,21,713 (b), dam, and obtained some useful information contained in his report submitted herewith. PART I. Review of Alien Immigration, The Character and Extent of the Evil. 5. We have not failed to take heed of the extent of the duties imposed i. Area of upon us by the words of the Commission. Duty. 6. But as our inquiry proceeded we found that the practical matters pre- sented to us were in point of time brought within the limit of the last 20 years; whilst the localities at present directly affected by this phase of Alien Immigration were mainly confined to the Metropolis, and to some industrial centres, including Birmingham, Cardiff, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Reading1, and Sheffield, and a portion of the mining districts of Scotland. 7. The Alien Immigrant is no new comer to this country. Following the ii. Short Norman Conquest many foreigners sought a home here. Some came as the Historical overflow of a victorious stream and flooded the country; others sought to R®VIE obtain land and to dwell on it. But as years rolled on, skilled artisans x^migh arrived to ply their trades and to make money in their callings. Men who followed trade and commerce also flocked to these shores; and so it was Moens, 23,062, that in these early days a native community formed of the Saxon and Norman races—one mainly following agricultural pursuits and the other devoted to arms—received a new and strengthening strain into its national life. 8. So far these Immigrants were moved by the hope of gain and benefit and by the desire to live in a land of good Government, 9. But the 15th and 16th centuries developed new causes for this immigra- tion. The dawn of Protestantism was soon followed by the day when Europe was torn by religious differences, and then all was changed. . 10. To a portion of the industrial population of the Low Countries, Ger- many and France, emigration became a practical necessity. It was not hope of 20638 ...... .. . a2 gain that moved these emigrants. The Inquisition was a great expelling force. A land wherein men could live according to their convictions was a great attraction. And so these foreigners fleeing from persecution came here in their thousands moved by religious causes, and yet to exercise great economic and industrial influence. 11. Towards the middle of the 16th century political events m England gave great encouragement to immigration. The attitude of Henry YIII. towards the Papacy, followed by the Reformation, ensured to the Protestant Immigrant a warm welcome and certain protection. This attraction of asylum continued through the reign of Edward VI., but a reversal of policy by Mary occasioned a flight of these Protestant Immigrants, to be followed by their return as soon as Elizabeth commenced her reign. From these causes the influx of foreigners into London became remarkable in extent. In 1540' apparently one-third of those who paid subsidy to the King in London were Aliens. In one Ward of the City, St. Martins-le- Grand, the proportion was six English to 207 foreign taxpayers. 12. In consequence of this great wave of immigration London became over- crowded. The Privy Council dealt with the problem by Orders that the foreigners living in London should be scattered and compelled to live away from it in different country towns. By virtue of these Orders in Council, Colonies were established in Sandwich, Canterbury, Norwich, Colchester, Yarmouth, Lynn, Glastonbury, Thetford, Stamford, and many other places. In 1569 the Colony of Dutch and Walloons in Norwich numbered 3,993. Upon all these colonists regulations and conditions framed by the local authorities were imposed. But a general condition was applied to all these Alien Communities. Every colony was required to build and maintain a Protestant Church. In the then existing bitter and doubtful struggle for supremacy between the two faiths, Protestantism thus secured many useful and important centres of action. But protected though they were by the State, the presence of so many active and enterprising foreigners naturally created jealousies and aroused opposition. They had either originated in this country or become competitors in almost every industrial trade. In 1618, 121 trades were carried on by foreigners in London, and against such an invasion by these Aliens, masters and men, Corporations and Guilds, united in protest. The records of the Privy Council during the reign of James 1st abound with complaints against the Aliens. For instance, the weavers of London complained to the Council " that Aliens injure trade—employ men younger than allowed by Statute—live more cheaply—and therefore sell more cheaply and engross the trade of foreigners." King James appears to have listened to these complaints, but to have acted with great deliberation in remedying them. But by the joint effect of Statutes and of Orders in Council, and by local regulations, the Aliens were subjected to a rigid control; yet no real .hindrance was placed in the way of the successful pursuit of their callings. Although Statutes affecting the Alien Immigration were passed in almost every reign since Richard II. it is superfluous to enumerate them. The General Repealing Act of 1863 swept them, with few exceptions, off the Statute Book. 13. As the 16th century had seen this great influx of Alien Immigration into England, so the 17th had similar events to record. 14. During the earlier portion of that century, the French Huguenots, protected by the Edict of Nantes, had enjoyed peace and protection. But from the commencement of his reign Louis XIV. had regarded 'them with disfavour. By degrees steps were taken to lessen the measure of toleration afforded to these Protestants, until in 1685 the formal Revocation of the Edict of_Nantes took place. Then came a great exodus from France; the recollection of the terrible massacre in the previous century having doubtless quickened it. Men of learning, men of property, the most skilled of her arti- sans, left France. They scattered themselves amongst many countries; but it is said that 80,000 landed in England and Ireland. Some were trans- migrants, but large numbers remained. Many stayed near where they landed. All along the South Coast of England Huguenot communities were formed. Many can be traced now. Their faith attracted them to the Flemish and Walloon Churches erected in the previous century. Not a few moved on to industrial centres in London. Norwich, Ipswich, or Canterbury. Their3 Moensr23,I63L -enterprise carried them to different places throughout England, and where- ever they established themselves some useful prosperous trade was found to be established also. From the very first these exiles were hospitably received.' Their misfortunes touched English hearts. Large sums of money were collected for them. Even James the Second could not refuse them welcome. But that welcome became far warmer after the Revolution of 1688. William the Third knew their worth, and sought their aid. The very flower of his earliest army was drawn from the refugees. Schomberg and Ruvignv were Huguenots. At the Battle of the Boyne no better soldiers fought for the maintenance of the Protestant religion, than these strangers. 15. To the records of the trades introduced and maintained by the Alien Immigrant of the 16th Century must now be added those very many important and useful industries practised by the Huguenots in the 17th. The list so completed comprises most of the industrial trades in which we now excel. 16. As a witness possessed of much historical knowledge said, " Nearly all our chief trades have been made by them." And whilst the superiority of the Aliens in these trades raised jealousies and hostilities amongst their con- temporaries', the impartial reader of the history of those times will probably come to the conclusion that this country owes a deep debt to those who so greatly contributed to make England " the Workshop of the World." 17. The 16th and 17th Centuries had each seen a great wave of foreign immigration. The latter portion of the 18th century furnished a third of less importance than the others. The French Revolution sent us many emigres, but few of them were of the industrial classes, and neither our industries nor commerce, were materially affected by their presence. 18. The 19th century has witnessed the present Alien Immigration, into which we are commissioned to inquire. 19. That the immigrants in past times made us their debtors cannot be controverted. The measure of that indebtedness may be traced in many directions. But, some will ask, can the Alien Immigrant of to-day claim to be our creditor, because our ancestors incurred a debt to the foreigners who sought asylum here ? If benefits were received some repayment at least was made. Are, too, the Immigrants of to-day the successors of those who benefited us ? Some may doubt the right of the unskilled labourer of Russia and Poland to claim to be repaid for the knowledge brought to us by the skilled artisans of France and the 'Low Countries. 20. The present movement of immigration may be said to have begun hi. Causes of about 1880, and is drawn mainly from the Jewish inhabitants of Eastern Europe. 21. The main causes of this exodus will be found set out in the special Report of Major Evans-Gordon mentioned above. 22. With regard to Russia the causes are partly economic, and partly due to oppressive measures. During the last seventy years there has been a more or less marked exodus of Jews from Russia. The influences impelling this movement in its commencement were, however, different from those which subsequently arose. Some of the emigrants were fugitives, others left in order to escape military service, while others again were anxious to find a wider field for their activity. Oppressive measures against the Jews had always been in force in Russia, but in the time of Alexander II. their stringency was much relaxed and the conditions of Jewish existence altered considerably for the better. Then came the assassination of thai sovereign, an event entirely unconnected with the Jews, but immediately followed by terrible anti-semitic, outbreaks in the Southern and South-Western provinces pl the Empire, and by fresh repressive enactments known as the May Laws of 1882. The principal provision of these laws was that the Jews, who had hitherto been allowed to live anywhere within the fifteen provinces of the Jewish Pale, a territory containing 313,608 square miles, were now required to prove that they had the right to live on the land prior to 1882. All who were unable to do so were driven into the towns. Moreover, the restrictions oil the right to live outside the limits of the fifteen Provinces which had been relaxed during the late Tsar's reign, were now enforced with extreme severity, and the Jews, especially the poorer classes, were expelled wholesale and driven within the Pale. the Present Wave of Immi- gration. Evans-Gordon,. 13,349. 20638 a 24 23. Some idea of the results of these measures may be gained ftom the fact that within eighteen months after the promulgation the Jewish popula- tion of the town of Tschernigor rose from 5,000 to 20,000 souls. This, of course, produced great economic pressure in the towns, a condition which the increase of population has since accentuated. It was mainly this forcing of the Jews into the towns that led to the exodus to England and America in the same twenty years; and although the great rush of emigration, which, owing to the' riots and .active persecution, had first partaken of the nature of a general flight, has since subsided, the expulsive influence still prevails. The channels opened by the first outrush have since then carried a steady stream of emigrants westward. In consequence of shipping agencies having sprung up, the traffic has become organised, and various shipping companies are now competitors for the business of conveying these Emigrants. Mr. "A,"3,361-5. 24. Considerable sums of money in the aggregate are annually sent by Evans-Gordon, Immigrants who have settled in America or England to their relations at 13,349. home, and exaggerated estimates of the prosperity of New York and of London are said to prevail amongst the poorer Jews of Eastern Europe, These two forces of expulsion and attraction are constantly at work, and supply the explanation of the immigration with which we are confronted. 25. With regard to Poland the laws regulating the lives of the Jews are somewhat different to those prevailing in Russia proper. In Poland, no restriction being placed upon their right to reside anywhere within the ten provinces of the ancient Kingdom, they are not forced into the towns. Here, the causes of emigration are mainly economic and are fully explained in Major Evans-Gordon's report. There is also from Poland, as from Lithuania, a movement of 'Catholics and Lutheran Protestants, and we have evidence that a considerable number of them are to be found in parts of the mining districts of Scotland and in some of the gas-works near London. Again, from Galicia there is a flow of emigration and, although in the Austrian Empire there is no legislation directed against the Jews, a strong anti-semitic feeling exists. Here the causes of emigration are principally economic, though the anti-Jewish feeling may have some effect in driving the Jews out. 26. In Roumania, on the other hand, the expulsive force is undoubtedly the intolerant attitude of the Government towards the Jews and the series of Oppressive measures which, contrary to treaty engagements, have appeared upon the statute book of that country. 27. The Jewish question has been a burning one ever since Roumanian independence was granted, and even long before. At the time of the Berlin Conference, in 1878, an attempt was made to place the Jewish subjects of Roumania upon a footing of equality with the other classes of the population. 28. The evident intention of the Powers throughout the negotiations was to establish complete religious and civil equality for the Jews. fT'he policy of the Roumanian Government was then, and is still, directly opposed to this intention. Rightly or wrongly, they have always asserted that such equality if given to the Hebrew race would end in the subjugation of their country by an alien people, and far from complying with the conditions laid down by the Great Powers, their policy tends towards the suppression, political extermination, and expulsion of the Jews. IV. Previous 29. The great increase in Alien Immigration after 1881 and the results Legislative which attended it led to a considerable agitation. Action. _I__30. In the year 1888 a Select Committee of the House of Commons was appointed to " inquire into the laws existing in the United States and elsewhere on the subject of the Immigration of destitute aliens, and as to the extent and effect of such Immigration into the United Kingdom, and to report whether it is desirable to impose any, and, if so, what, restrictions on such Immigration." 31. This Committee reported in 1889. Its general conclusions may be summarized as follows:— (1). It was impossible to state with accuracy the number of aliens then in the United Kingdom.I) (2J. The alien population was not numerous enough to create alarm, but the proportion of the alien to the native population had been for a long time, and was then, on the increase. (3). The better class of immigrants arrived in transit; the poorest and worst class remained. (4). The distribution of those poor aliens both as regards localities and trades was such that the pressure was out of proportion to their numbers. (5). They were confined to a few towns and generally to a special part of such towns, and were engaged in a few trades. (6). In those trades they worked longer hours and for less wages than English workmen. (7). Their physical condition was inferior to that of British work- men, but their health appeared to be good, notwithstanding their neglect of sanitary laws. They had good qualities and were inoffensive as citizen^, but generally dirty and uncleanly in their habits. 32. In the recommendations of that Committee (No. 5) they remark that " while they see great difficulties in the way of enforcing laws similar to those of the United States, and are not prepared to recommend legislation at present, they contemplate the possibility of such legislation becoming necessary in the future, in view of the crowded condition of our great towns, the extreme pressure for existence among the poorer part of the population, and the tendency of destitute foreigners to reduce still lower the social and material condition of our own poor." 33. No steps were taken as a result of the Committee's inquiry beyond an attempt to enlarge the scope and secure the accuracy of the statistics collected by the Board of Trade. 34. In 1894 the Marquis of Salisbury, then Leader of the Opposition in the House of Lords, introduced a restrictive measure, but it was not carried into law. In the Queen's Speech at the commencement of the Session of 1896 it was said that a measure for checking the importation of destitute aliens had been prepared. In 1898 the Earl of Hardwicke introduced the first part of Lord Salisbury's Bill of 1894 into the House of Lords, where it passed through all its stages. But it was not intro- duced into the House of Commons. 35. In January 1902 Major W. Evans-Gordon moved as an Amendment to the Address :—" To represent the urgent necessity of introducing legis- lation to restrict the immigration of destitute aliens into London and other cities of the United Kingdom." As the result of this action further inquiry into the subject was promised by the Government and in due course the present Royal Commission was appointed. 36. In dealing with the problem thus submitted to us we find that the V. Evils attri- principal evils attributed to the unrestricted immigration of aliens are as butbd to Alien follows:— Immigration. 37. It is said that a large and gradually increasing number of Aliens have during the last 20 years arrived in this country with the object of per- manently settling here. 38. In respect of many of these Alien Immigrants it is alleged— (1) That on their arrival they are (a) in an impoverished and destitute Johnson, 8,559. condition, (b) deficient in cleanliness, and practise insanitary Loane, 4,576. habits, (c) and being subject to no medical examination on Ty^el!, 3,686. embarkation or arrival, are liable to introduce infectious diseases. (2) That amongst them are criminals, anarchists, prostitutes, and McConnell, persons of bad character, in number beyond the ordinary 12,706. percentage of the native population. Howard Vincent, Co'ote,'l2,575. Newton, 10,457,6 Barrett, 2,201. Rose, 9,113. Harper, 10,904. Murphy,Dr.S.F., 3,968. Foot. 6,579. Thomas, Dr., 5,661. Silver, 2,659. Belcher, 4,293. Rev.A.E.Dalton, 10,149. Williams, A. T., 2,896. Blake, 7,783. Gillmore, 8,762. Rev. W. H. Davies, 9,757. Silverstone, 1,829. Amstell, 12,209. Vaughan, 13,145. Lyons, L., 14,155. Onion, 2,576. Marston, 14,320. Amstell, 12,365. Whatley, 13,716. Connellan, 15,072. Thompson, 14,655. White, A., 332. Rev. W. H. Davies, 9,746. Rev.A.E.Dalton, 10,174. Evans, 11,657. VI. Acts in Force. LI. Smith, 6. 10. (3) That many of these being and becoming paupers and receiving poor law relief, a burden is thereby thrown upon the local rates. (4) That on their arrival in this country they congregate as dwellers in certain districts, principally in the East End of London, and especially in the Borough of \Stepney, and that when they so settle they become a compact, non-assimilating community. (5) That this influx into limited localities has caused the native dweller to be dispossessed of his house accommodation, has occasioned overcrowding, has raised the charge for rents, and introduced the abuse known as " key-money "; and that in consequence in certain localities much ill-feeling exists against the Alien Immigrants. (6) That in consequence of these Aliens dealing exclusively with those of their own race and religion the native tradesmen in the localities affected by the immigration have suffered loss of trade, and in many instances, have been superseded by Aliens. (7) That, on arrival, many being unskilled in any industrial trade, and in a state of poverty, work for a rate of wages below a standard upon which a native workman can fairly live. (8) That the unskilled Aliens on their arrival in this country, set themselves to learn the easier portions of different trades, that during such probationary periods they produce work for a very low remuneration, and when by degrees they become skilled workers they are willing to accept a lower rate of wage than that demanded by the native workmen, who have by this cause been driven to some extent out of certain trades. (9) In addition to these allegations it was complained in respect to immigrants of the Jewish faith (a) that they do not assimilate and intermarry with the native race, and so remain a solid and distinct colony; and (b) that their existence in large numbers in certain areas gravely interferes with the observance of the Christian Sunday. 39. Into all these allegations and into the replies given to them we have felt it our duty fully to inquire. 40. The only Act now in force regulating the Immigration of European Aliens into this country, is the 6 William IV., c. xi. 9. 41. By the 2nd Section of that Act:—- " The Master of every Vessel which, after the Commencement of' this Act, shall arrive in this Realm from Foreign Part, shall imme- diately on his . arrival declare in Writing .to the Chief Officer of the Customs at the Port of Arrival, whether there is, to the best of his Knowledge, any Alien on board his Vessel, and whether any Alien hath, to his Knowledge, landed therefrom at any Place within this Realm, and shall in his said Declaration specify the Number of* Aliens (if any) on board his Vessel, or who have, to his Knowledge, landed therefrom, and their Names, Rank, Occupation, and Descrip- tion, as far as he shall be informed thereof; and if the Master of any such Vessel shall refuse or neglect to make such Declaration, or shall wilfully make a false Declaration, he" shall for every such offence forfeit the Sum of Twenty Pounds, and the further Sum of Ten Pounds for , each Alien who shall have been on board at the Time of the Arrival of such Vessel, or who shall have, to his knowledge, landed therefrom within this Realm, whom such Master shall wilfully have refused or neglected to declare; and in case such Master shall neglect or refuse forthwith to pay such Penalty, it shall be lawful for any Officer of the Customs, and he is hereby required, to detain such Vessel"7 until the same shall be paid: Provided always, that nothing herein before contained shall extend to any Mariner actually employed in the Navigation of such Vessel during the Time that such Mariner shall remain so actually employed." LI. Smith. 42. And by the 3rd Section of the same Act it is enacted:— 10. " THAT every Alien who shall, after the commencement of this Act, arrive in any Part of the United Kingdom from Foreign Parts, shall immediately after such arrival, present and show to the Chief Officer of the Customs at the Port of Debarkation, for his Inspection, any Passport which may be in his or her Possession, and declare in Writing to such Chief Officer, or verbally make to him a Declaration, to be by him reduced into Writing, of the Day and Place of his or her landing, and of his or her Name, and shall also declare to what Country he or she belongs and is subject, and the Country and Place from whence he or she shall then have come; which Declaration shall be made in or reduced into such Form as shall be approved by one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State; and, if any such Alien coming into this Realm, shall neglect or refuse to present and show any Passport which may be in his or her Possession, or if he or she shall neglect or refuse to make such Declaration, he or she shall forfeit the Sum of Two Pounds." 43. The whole of the Act had fallen into disuse until 1890, when, in LI. Smith, 26. consequence of the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on Immigration in 1889, the provisions of Section 2 were brought again into force. 44. The abolition of passports has prevented any revival of action under Section 3. 45. The lists rendered under Section 2 of the Act are forwarded by 13. the Custom House Officers, through the Home Office, to the Board of Trade. 46. But the provisions of the 2nd Section of the Act have not been carried into effect at all ports. Officers act under it at 29 ports, which, it is 15. 22,649. believed, include all the ports of the Kingdom at which Alien Immigrants arrive from Europe. At 5 of these 29 ports-—Dover, Folkestone, Harwich, 19. Newhaven and Southampton, it is sought to avoid interference with cross-channel traffic, and so the lists only show deck passengers, and 15. 90. persons who, after landing, proceed by train as third class passengers. 47. It must, further, be noted that the enumeration of the passengers travelling between the United Kingdom and Continental Ports is " voluntarily furnished to the Board of Trade by the principal English Board of Trade passenger shipping companies, English railway companies carrying Statistical Tables passengers to and from the Continent, the Belgian Government, and some ^uon^andlm-~ foreign shipping companies having agencies in this country." The enume- migration, 1901, ration, therefore, does not appear to be altogether complete, and, though p. 41. Ll. Smith, the figures thus obtained are tabulated in the Board of Trade's Statistical 22,371. Tables and are frequently used in drawing inferences as to the extent of Alien Immigration, the methods adopted by shipping companies for collecting them are not subject to the control of the Board of Trade. 48. By Section 336 of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894 it is enacted :— LI. Smith, 56-59. (1) " The master of every ship bringing steerage passengers to the British Islands from any port out of Europe and not within the Mediterranean Sea, shall, within twenty-four hours after arrival,, deliver to the emigration officer at the port of arrival, a correct list, signed by the master, and specifying the name, age, and calling of every steerage passenger embarked, and the port at which he embarked, and showing also any birth which has occurred amongst the steerage passengers, and if any steerage passenger has died, his name and the •supposed cause of his death."8 LI. Smith, 22,551. VII. Medical Examination at Port of Embarkation. Hawkey, 1,384. Evans-Gordon, 13,343. (2) " If the master of a ship fails so to deliver the list, or if the list is wilfully false, he shall, for each offence, be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds." 49. With the exception of some cattlemen, principally from Argentina and the United States, the passengers designated in the above Act arriving from places out of Europe do not appear to be Alien Immigrants within the scope of our inquiry, and therefore have not been the subject of evidence before us. 50. In relation to those who are termed " undesirable Aliens " it has to be noted that no inquiry is made at the port of embarkation in respect of the condition of the Alien Immigrants coming to England. The immigrants shipping to America are very differently treated. A full account of the elaborate precautions taken at Hamburg will be found in Major Evans- Gordon's report. In consequence of the American restrictive laws, which throw upon the shipowners the liability to carry back to the port of embarkation undesirable emigrants arriving in America, the Hamburg- American Shipping Company has at great expense established an institu- tion for the reception and treatment of emigrants about to embark upon the Company's ships. During their stay in this " depot" the emigrants are well cared for, especially in relation to their food and health. Major Evans-Gordon thus describes the protective steps taken to prevent undesir- ables from becoming passengers on board the Company's vessels :— " Every emigrant is inspected daily by the doctor who marks off each examination on a card with which each person is provided for the purpose. These cards have to be given up in exchange for the ship's ticket- and only those persons are allowed to embark whose doctor's certificates are satisfactorily filled in." 51. The Alien Immigrants, concerning whom our inquiry has principally been directed, arrive, for the most part, in London from four ports:— Rotterdam, Bremen, Hamburg and Libau. The three former may be regarded as German ports—the last Russian. The emigrant vessels sailing from Libau are under the Danish flag. The weekly services are four steamers from Hamburg, three from Rotterdam and Bremen, and one from Libau. Upon the arrival of these boats a Custom House Officer boards them, and, in pursuance of the Statute 6 William IV., receives " the Alien Lists " from the Masters of the Vessels. 52. The Custom House Officer then proceeds into the steerage and calls out the name of each Alien on the list, who is then questioned by the officer in accordance with the directions set out in the Treasury Minute, No. 9,999, of 1891. That minute requests information respecting these Aliens on the- following subjects :— (1) " Number. (2) " What means have they as far as can be ascertained. (3) " Their immediate destination, namely, within the port. (4) " What arrangements, if any, have been made for their reception an landing, as far as can be ascertained. (5) " Their ultimate destination, as far as can be gathered." 850. 53. The answers obtained to these inquiries are recorded, and the information forwarded to the Board of Trade. 858. 54. It must be observed that there are no means of checking the accuracy of this information voluntarily given—and from ignorance of language, and other causes, its complete trustworthiness cannot be ensured. 1,387. 55. The Alien Immigrant vessels, on arrival, are subjected to a modified Williams, Dr.H., medical examination. Three Medical Officers are stationed at Gravesend 6>041. engaged in " Boarding Medical Duties." One is always on duty. These 6,037. Officers are appointed by the Corporation of the City of London, but their 6,076. reports.are forwarded to the Local Government Board. In the first instance, upon the arrival at Gravesend of an Immigrant Ship, a Medical Officer goes- alongside the vessel and inquires from the Captain " Have you any sickness- VIII. Methods now Employed in respect of Aliens on Arrival in London. Williams, Dr.H., 6,978. Hawkey, 822-825. 827. 829. 845.9 on board?" If the reply is "No," a certificate to that effect is given and the vessel is allowed to proceed. The Medical Officer does not, as a fact, board the ship and test the accuracy of the reply. He has extensive powers Williams, Dr. H., of inspection under the Public Health (Condon) Act, 1891, but a practical 6,121. difficulty may prevent these being exercised. The vessel is under way, and 6,995. as the Act gives no power to the Medical Officer to direct it to be stopped, he would have to find his way on board as best he could. But if the 6,084. 'Gaptain reports illness on board, the Medical Officer proceeds on board and examines the patients. If the malady is not infectious there is no detention, 6,086. and the ship proceeds towards London. If any case of infection is discovered the vessel is moored and the patient detained and landed at 6,049. Denton, near Gravesend. The other passengers are examined, and, if the Medical Officer is satisfied that there is no risk of their spreading disease, 6,066. are allowed to land. 56. Under certain circumstances, special medical investigation takes place. 6,054. Vessels arriving from ports at which the exotic diseases of plague, yellow fever, or cholera, are known or suspected to exist, are boarded and the passengers medically examined. But the Medical Officer does not, at present, inspect or deal with passengers who may be in a most dirty and filthy condition in respect of person or clothes. 6,139. 57. Upon arrival in London the Aliens are disposed of in different ways. IX. Treatment Some are met by relatives or friends who take charge of them; others who 0N Arrival. are principally transmigrants have been consigned by the shipping agents Hyder, 7,394. to certain agents in London who provide lodging accommodation for the Blake, 7,751. immigrants. But all these steerage passengers are met on landing by the Dix, 5,378. officers of " the Jewish Shelter." This Institution was founded in 1885 with Somper, 19,087. the view primarily of providing a temporary refuge and protection for those g0a^pe7'i9 055 immigrants who were proceeding to America, At this time the German Landau,'16,271. Emigrants to "America were carried on English vessels and so had, for the most part, to pass through London. In the course of their arrival and during their necessary stay here they were unprotected and much imposed upon. "To afford them a very desirable protection, the Jewish Shelter was founded. During the years that have passed since 1885, it has extended its operations. Mr. Landau thus describes them: — "On the approaching arrival of every vessel carrying Alien Immi- 16,271. grants, the Agents of Lloyds, at Gravesend, by arrangement with the Shelter telegraphs to the Superintendent of the Institution. Each boat is boarded by an official of the Board of Trade and a representative of the Shelter. The passengers are counted and checked, and all particu- lars taken. No distinction is made between Jew and Gentile. Their names and other particulars are recorded, and those having addresses in London of friends or relatives are conducted to those addresses. Those who have through tickets are boarded out at the expense of the shipping 'Companies, and are taken to the railway station when their train departs. Those who announce their intention of staying in London may remain at the Shelter ia period not exceeding two weeks, after which they must leave. The average period of their stay at the Shelter is six days. » It may be stated that no dock or boat charges are paid by the Shelter as stated. The precise particulars relating to every individual are entered in the books of the Institution so far as they can be ascertained." 58. The statement of Mr. Landau that 95 per cent, of the arrivals passed ^ 273. through the Shelter requires some explanation. His meaning was that this large number were met on their arrival by the representatives of the Shelter, and by them assisted and directed in finding destinations and otherwise. But the number of immigrants who actually stayed .in the Shelter was, 16,309 (Ta,bleB.). during the years from 1889 to 1902, 29,511, showing a yearly average of 2,270. Of these 29,511, 18,237 stated that they were "en route." It appears from the Board of Trade Returns that between the years 1891-1902 LI. Smith there were 136,426 Russians and Poles and a few Roumanians who arrived (Table 5), at the Port of London; during the years from 1890 to 1902 the number Appendix, of'Russians and Poles was 143,425. 2036810 59. Those who actually stayed in the Shelter were dealt with by its officers Landau, 16,273. as mentioned above. Mr. Landau also said " the number of Immigrants coming from Harwich, Grimsby, and other ports also pass through to a very great extent, the only difference being that passengers are met at the Great Eastern Station or the Great Central in lieu of the Port of London, but the total number of such passengers bears a very small percentage to those arriving in the Port of London." 16,309. 60. The expenses of the Shelter are largely provided for by the Shipping Companies (see Table " A" attached to Mr. Landau's evidence), the remainder by the contributions of the Jewish community. 61. But another and more important charitable body greatly interests itself in the welfare of the Jewish Alien Immigrants. Cohen, L., 15,213. 62. In the year 1859 the Institution known as the Jewish Board of 15,254. Guardians was founded, and in the year 1891, another Society called the Landau, 16,269. Russo- Jewish Committee was incorporated with it. This latter Society was called into existence by the acute persecution of Jews in Russia, and was supported by the subscriptions of Jews and Christians alike. Cohen,L., 15,250. 63. The funds of the Jewish Board of Guardians, which are provided by i members of the Jewish community, are devoted to relieving the poverty and -^',43' improving the condition of the Jewish poor. The amount so expended is 15'715. considerable. In the year 1902, £14,747 was spent in relieving 4,806 cases (representing 17,790 poor Jews), 4,256 being foreigners. Of these 4,256, 380 had arrived in this country during the year 1902, of whom 260 were repatriated. 15,258. 64. Apart from its action in relieving the Jewish poor, the policy of the 15,505. Jewish Board of Guardians is to lessen the pressure of Alien Immigration Cohen L 15 641 uPon us- ^ develops that policy by the issue of circulars abroad, as the occasion seems to demand, with the object of persuading undesirable 15,257. Immigrants not to embark for this country, and by freely assisting them after 15,560. arrival to return to their homes or to emigrate to other countries. It also Joseph, 16,079. avoids any encouragement to the Immigrants to come here by refusing RevCanon them any assistance during the first six months of their sojourn. Its Barnett 17 532. influence is also employed to relieve the pressure upon the East End of London by persuading the Immigrants to fix their abodes in uncrowded districts. 65. At present no control is exercised over the Immigrant's selection of his place of residence. He is free to go where he will. The agents selected Belcher, 4,255. by the shipping agents abroad find lodgings, principally in the East End of London for some, but those are mostly, transmigrants. The relatives and Somper, friends who meet some of the Immigrants on their arrival may provide 19,278-83. habitations for others. But the great bulk of Immigrants accumulate in the Barrett, 2,278. localities where men of their race and religion are dwelling, and where Silver, 2,675. • identity of language and habits mitigate the inconveniences and difficulties Bev. W. H. arising from dwelling in a foreign land. This is a natural gravitation likely Davies, 9,731. to continue unless stayed by legal or other means. X. Condition 66. It is important to consider the personal condition of the Alien of Aliens on- Immigrants upon their arrival in respect of (a) health, (5) cleanliness, Arrival. (e) means of subsistence. 67. (a) In relation to health we feel that we ought to place reliance upon the testimony of 'Dr. Herbert Williams, the Medical Officer of Health for the Port of London. 68. Dr. Williams is appointed by the Corporation of the City of London and discharges the duties (mentioned in paragraph 54) of meeting the vessels and dealing with passengers suffering from infectious diseases. Answering a question as to the health of the immigrants on arrival in the Port of London, Dr. Williams said:— Williams, Dr. H., " As to their health, I should say it was fairly good. The number of 6.113. cases of infectious diseases introduced that I have detected amongst these people has not been numerous speaking as a whole. I cannot say that much infectious disease has come into the country among these people." Landau, 16,275b 69. This view was strongly supported by the evidence of Mr. Herman Landau, the President of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, who stated:11 that during the last six years only one case of sickness had occurred amongst the many thousands of immigrants who had been received in the Shelter. This statement was so remarkable that we sought for, and obtained, corroboration of it. From having lived for years in a state of great poverty many of these immigrants on arrival are in a condition of Joseph, 15,983. great weakness, " but after being in this country for a short time they become as strong as anyone else." 70. Mr. Hawkey also said: — " It has very seldom occurred that I have known a case of illness." Hawkey, 1,358. 71. It also seems that in consequence of the poor living resulting from poverty there are cases of children amongst the immigrants on arrival suffer- ing from a disease called " granular ophthalmia." This disease under certain Tyrrell, 3,672. conditions is contagious. It, however, appeared that the disease, which is Dr. Hope, 21,464. found in the ranks of poor children generally, did not exist to an exceptional extent amongst the alien children, and no instance was alleged of the disease being communicated by them to others. At the same time the Dr. W. Lang, desirability of permitting people suffering from this contagious disease into 20,628. this country has to be considered. 72 (b). In respect to cleanliness on arrival something depends upon the construction of, and regulations upon, the carrying vessels as well as npon the habits of the individuals. Formerly the arrangements for steerage Williams, Dr.H., passengers on board all these vessels was most insufficient and defective, so that such passengers had no opportunity of securing any approach to 7,119. cleanliness. But since 1895 great improvements were made in the vessels belonging to the German Companies. The condition of the vessels from the Port of Libau, although recently improved, is, however, still unsatisfactory. 6,176. 6,971. Dr. Williams' report of June 3, 1902, to the Corporation of London discloses a condition of arrangement, sanitary and otherwise, on board the Libau boats which must be regarded as deserving of the strongest condemnation. The persons who have the best opportunity of judging of the condition as to the cleanliness of the immigrants on arrival are Mr. Hawkey, the Custom-House Official who meets the vessel, and Dr. H. Williams, the Medical Officer of the Port of London. Upon, this subject Mr. Hawkey's evidence was as follows:— Q. " When you meet these steerage passengers what sort of condition Hawkey, 854. do you find them in if they come long distances ?" . A. "In fairly good condition." Q. " What do you mean? What state are they in as to cleanliness?" A. " I think they are clean." Q. " Compared with an ordinary English workman, if he has travelled two or three days on a railway and had had a sea voyage, does anything particular strike you as to these men?" A. " I do not think they are more uncleanly than any other similar class of people. There is now more accommodation for these people, and they are much better now than they were when I first had to do this work." Q. " Do the German shipowners see and insist that these people 1,413. shall keep themselves in a cleanly condition when on board f' A. "Yes." 73. Dr. H. Williams confined his evidence in respect of want of cleanliness principally to the condition of the passengers arriving on board the Libau vessels. These he described as being in a filthy verminous condition—their Williams, Dr. H., clothes and bodies being infested with lice and fleas. 6,180. 74 ifi). Several considerations affect the probable means of subsistence of the Alien Immigrant after taking up his abode here. His actual resources upon arrival are seldom large. It has been shewn that poverty is one of the causes which have led him to emigrate. Still destitution is by no means the rule. The proportion of those who, on arrival, declared they were possessed of practically nothing in 1901-2 was 24.8 per cent. For the last eight years Hawkey, 1,313. 20638 R „12 Hawkey, 1,314- 1,318. Hawkey, 864. 1,317. the proportion was 22 per cent. In addition, 15 per cent., including women and children, produced less than 10s. per head. Mr. Hawkey estimated that each person—two children counting as one—during the year 1901-2 possessed 24 marks. Large sums of money were found in the hands of many of them. In one instance the immigrant was in possession of a cheque for £1,000, in another of £500. 1,332. XI. Undesir- able Aliens. 75. It should be observed that there are no means of testing the statements of these Aliens as to the amounts possessed by them. Mr. Hawkey's opinion was that their tendency was to understate the sums that they possessed. Speaking generally, it is clear that the Alien Immigrant must, as soon as he becomes resident here, depend upon his labour for a subsistence. The trades to which the Immigrants are found ultimately to attach themselves will be dealt with in this Report. Some of them are skilled artisans, and these Landau, 16,274. bring the knowledge of a trade with them. Others are agricultural labourers, or entirely unskilled in any trade. Mr. Landau said that he learnt from the statements of the Aliens " that fully 60 per cent, of the Immigrants are skilled workmen, and some bring their own tools with them. Of the remaining number half (20 per cent.) are women and children, and as a large number of the residue are dealers, etc., there are comparatively few who have no real calling." 76. During the course of this Inquiry many witnesses have expressed the opinion that it would be advantageous in the interests of this country if those Alien Immigrants who are properly designated as " undesirable " be refused admission to the ports of arrival. For the purposes of future consideration, it will be convenient here to state that there was general agreement in designating as " undesirables " (1) Criminals other than political. (2) Anarchists, and other persons of notoriously bad character. (3) Prostitutes, and persons living on the proceeds of prostitution. (4) Persons affected by infectious or contagious diseases. (5) Lunatics or Idiots. 77. Different opinions were expressed upon the classification as " undesir- ables " of Immigrants who were possessed of no ostensible means of support, and were therefore likely to become a charge upon public funds or private charitv. O 78. In order to ascertain the number of Alien Immigrants arriving or sojourning in this country, two practical sources of information exist:—(1) The Census Returns; (2) the above Returns made under the 6 William IV. 79. From the Census Returns we should learn the number of Aliens resident in the different localities of the United Kingdom at the time of taking each Census, and thus be able to ascertain the increase or decrease of the alien population between the ditterent periods of Census taking. Of course, the Census Returns include every foreigner found in this country at the date of the Census who may be a traveller or a visitor, and so not coming within the term " Alien Immigrant" as used in this Report. But in respect of these Returns it is asserted that they are defective, and do not show the full number of Aliens in the country. The alleged causes for these defective Returns are (1) that the Census officers are not sufficiently careful in the discharge of their duties; (2) that the Aliens do not understand the forms to be filled in ; (3). that they prefer to be considered native born, and therefore wilfully misrepresent their nationalities. White, 931. Emanuel, 16,656. XII. Census and Board of Trade Statis- tics. White, A., 406. Williams, A. T., 2,956. White, A., 412. Thomas,Dr.D.L., 5,677. 80. We had a considerable amount of evidence bearing upon these allega- tions brought before us, and the conclusion we have arrived at is, that posi- tive accuracy is not to be found in the Census Returns; and that some McLeod,479. addition—an uncertain quantity—should be made to the number of resident Emanuey.6,597. Aliens given in those Returns. It was, however, established before us that u great and unusual care was taken in securing the Returns of Metropolitan Jewish Aliens in 1901. 81. The Census enumerators received special instructions, and carefully acted Gordon, H., 17,629,13 upon them. A circular in Yiddish and English was prepared by the Chief Emanuel, 16,597. Rabbi, and issued in the name of the Jewish Board of Guardians, on the back of which was a translation of the Census Paper into Yiddish. This was circulated by the Census Office throughout the Jewish Quarters of London. A second supplemental circular, giving directions, was also issued by the Jewish Board of Deputies. 82. In addition to these precautions the Chief Rabbi, with the sanction of the Census Office, formed a committee of ladies and gentlemen. A map of the foreign Jewish quarter was divided into minute squares, and each square was given to one of the Committee who visited every house in such square, and assistance in filling in the Census Papers in English was given in all cases where it was required. Notwithstanding these precautions we see no reason to differ from the opinion expressed by Mr. Reginald McLeod, who, as Registrar-General at the head of the Census Department, said that McLeod, 48 » the "Census Returns do not supply perfect accuracy." 527. 83. It is also deserving of remark that children, born of alien parents in this country, are ranked according to their legal status as native born. 84. In relation to the other source of information mentioned above it seems to be established that the Returns made under the 6 William IV. do not afford any accurate information as to the number of Alien Immigrants arriving in this country. LI. Smith, 28-33. 85. Further, a distinction is made in. the figures of the Board of Trade between those Immigrants described as en route to places out of the United Kingdom and those not so described. This distinction comes from the circumstance that, soon after the revival of the Alien Act above referred to, an arrangement was made between the Board of Trade and the Shipping Companies whose business it was to carry large numbers of transmigrants holding through tickets for America through the Humber and North Eastern Ports, that in the case of such passengers the total number only should be given, and the further particulars specified by the Act should not be required. The total number of persons returned under this agreement appears in the Board of Trade figures as Aliens described as en route to . other countries. All other Aliens, whether arriving at the ports to which the arrangement refers or elsewhere are classed as Aliens not described as en route, whether, in fact, they are en route or not is not ascertained. All that is meant is that they are not persons bearing through tickets and passing through one of the ports to which the arrangement applies. For instance, all Alien Immigrants arriving in London are classed as " not described to be en route." Mr. Somper, the Superintendent of the Jewish Somper, 19,051. Shelter, stated that, out of 26,796 immigrants who arrived in London in the year Ending October 31st, 1902, not stated to be en route, he believed from 10,000 to 11,000 passed on to America and elsewhere. Mr. Llewellyn 19,083. Smith also stated that in the year 1902, 7,964 alien immigrants not returned Ll. Smith,22,323. as being en route were traced outwards. 86. Accepting for the purposes of this Report that an "Alien Immigrant" is one who comes to this country with the object of residing here, it is apparent that deductions must be made from the numbers returned as Alien Immigrants under the 6 William IV., cap. xi., under the following heads:— (a) Foreign sailors who arrive here for the purpose of serving on board 210,22,367, our mercantile ships. (b) Persons who are travelling on business or pleasure, and do not intend 133. to stay in this country. /Brown,J.,11,296. (c) Persons who are emigrated and repatriated shortly after their arrival Cohen, L., by charitable agencies. 115 318 (d) Persons who are en route, although not stated so to be. I Isaacs,' 20,800. 87. It therefore appears that the number of persons shown in these Ll. Smith, 35. Returns as being Alien Immigrants in the sense above mentioned are of Landau, 16,285. but little value as a guide to the number of Aliens remaining in this country. 88. It follows that we have no accurate guide as to the number of Alien Immigrants in this country, and that the nearest approach to such informa- tion is to be found in the Census Retur/i.14 XIII. Statis- 89. Elaborate statistical tables containing much detailed information are tical Tables, set out in the Appendix to this Report. 90. It appears advisable to give a summary of the more important figures found in the tables. 91. The population of the United Kingdom according to the Census returns was as follows ................. 34,884,848 Table 55, Appendix. 1881 1891 1901 37,732,922 41,458,721 92. Of Aliens, according to the Census returns, there were in the United Kingdom:— Table 56, Appendix. 1881 1891 1901 135,640 219,523 286,925 Total increase in 20 years ... 93. The principal distribution was as follows :— Increase. 83,883 67,402 151,285 Census Reports. 1881. 1891. 1901. 60,252 . . 95,053 . . 135,377 2,805 . 8,941 . 11,737 6,858 . 7,402 . 8,974 2,134 . 5,927 . 7,426 6,399 . . 8,510 . . 22,627 For Alien In- habitants in other districts see Table (59) Appendix. London County Manchester Liverpool Leeds Scotland 94. In 1901 the general population of London was 4,536,541. 95. Throughout the different districts of London the distribution of Aliens is very unequal. Thus of the 135,377 Aliens resident in the County of London in the year 1901 the following figures are to be found in the Table (59) Appendix. Resident in Stepney ... ... ... ... 54,310 Westminster St. Pancras Marylebone Bethnal Green Woolwich 11,831 8,156 5,560 4,634 441 96. Of the 286,925 Alien Immigrants in the United Kingdom in the year 1901, the following apportionment of nationalities appears.— Russians and Poles ... ... ... ... 95,245 Germans ... ... ... ... ... 53,402 Americans ... ... ... ... ... 29,180 Italians ... ... ... ... ... ... 24,684 French ... ... ... ... ... ... 22,406 Scandinavians ... ... ... ... ... 17,762 Austrians ... ... ... ... ... 10,130 Swiss ... ... ... ... ... ... 9,026 Dutch ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,115 Other Nationalities ... ... ... ... 17,975 For nationalities of other Aliens, see Table (60) of Appendix. 97. Of the 95,245 Russians and Poles „ 53,402 Germans „ 29,180 Americans „ 24,684 Italians „ 22,406 French „ 10,130 Austrians Were resident in London 53,537 27,427 6,244 10,889 11,264 6,189 See Table (60), Appendix. 98. Of the 53,537 Russians and Poles resident in London County in 1901, 42,032 resided in the Borough of Stepney, whilst in Bermondsey only 96 were to be found.15 99. In the United Kingdom in 1901 the number of Aliens aged 10 years aind upwards working in different occupations are set out in Table (61) of Appendix. The principal occupations and the number of persons ^employed therein are as follows :— In England. In Scotland-. In Ireland. In United Kingdom. Tailors ......... !.. 21,786 775 137 25,698 Seamen ............ 17,091 1,910 694" 19,695 Domestic Indoor Servants ... 17,443 552 918 18,913 Waiters 5,650 284 139 6,073 ,Art, Music and Drama 5,600 308 132 6,010 •Commercial or Business Clerks ... 5,443 214 114 5,771 Hawkers and Costermongers 4,725 393 254 5,372 "Teachers 4,379 230 389 4,998 ■Cabinet Makers 4,615 168 32 4,815 Boot and Shoe Makers ... ... 4,671 82 17 4,770 Miners 632 1,262 — 1,894 Persons without specified occupation or unoccupied......... 70,660 4,949 5,298 80,907 •Children under 10......... 12,256 5,035 3,70.2 20,993 In England and Wales. In Scotland. In Ireland. "Of the Tailors......... 19,076 660 75 were Russians and Poles. Boot and Shoe Makers 3,577 56 were Russians and Poles. Cabinet Makers 3,022 120 were Russians and Poles. * Not distinguished. XIY.—Number of Persons, Unemployed in different Trades. * Not distinguished. 100. In respect of the number of persons unemployed in different trades, it will be observed from the evidence of Mr. LI. SmitH that there is great difficulty in obtaining any definite information. The tables handed in by him and set out in the Appendix refer to a very limited portion of the trade, and it is impossible to trace any effect of Alien Immigration upon the slight variation in the number of persons employed. 101. The same observations apply to the rate of wages received in the different trades. But it certainly appears that, notwithstanding the influx of Aliens, there has been a general tendency to an increase of wages in the trades mentioned in Mr. LI. Smith's tables. In support of this view, especial reference may be made to the figures relating to the bespoke tailoring trade. , 102. The representative of the Board of Trade placed before us some XV.—Pauperism. valuable figures showing the extent to which pauperism exists amongst Alien Immigrants. Tables 15(1.) and 15 (I I), Appendix. Tables (16 to 18), Appendix.16 103. It is important to have regard to those Aliens with whom the Report more immediately deals. Much information on this point is derived from the following table furnished by the Board of Trade :— 27.—Statement comparing the Number of Aliens to whom Poor Law Relief was granted in the Metropolis during the Years 1901 and 1902, distinguishing the kind of Relief granted in each Case. Number of Aliens Relieved. Alien Population of Outdoor. Sent to Lunatic or Imbecile Asylums but not otherwise Relieved. Distkict. Metropolis as .. Enumerated at Census of 1901. Indoor. Medical only. Other Outdoor Relief. Total. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901, 1902. Borough of: Stepney ...... ' 54,310 512 412 1,590 1,472 14 42 67 2,116 1,993 Bethnal G-reen 4,634 — 15 * 15 138* 8 j a -*7 a .2 £ 5 138 43 Westminster Holborn ...... 11,831 5,706 75 79 82 124 — 3 42 — 8 15 r-H 0) e8 a § S o o 10 6 75 79 103 187 Rest of London...... 58,896 308 577 14 79 36 172 J L 80 358 908 Total 135,377 974 | 1,210 1,604* 1,611 188* 245 t 168 2,766+ 3,234 * Medical relief was not separated from other outdoor relief in the return from Bethnal G-reen in 1901. t In the returns for 1901 from some of the Poor Law Unions, aliens transferred to Lunatic and Imbecile Asylums, but not otherwise relieved, were included but not separately distinguished. In other returns such aliens were excluded. It has since been ascertained that the total number of aliens so included was 40, and of those excluded about 90. It is not possible, however, to give particulars of the nationality of these aliens, or of the headings under which those included in the totals were returned. 104. The different nationalities of the persons so receiving relief will be LI. Smith,22,142. found in Table 28. It will be observed that out of 1,993 Aliens receiving relief in the Borough of Stepney during 1902, 1,620 were Russians and Poles, whilst throughout the rest of London only 210 were of those nationalities. Appendix Table 105. It will also be seen that between the years 1901 and 1902 there was 27» an increase from 2,766 Metropolitan pauper Aliens in 1901, to 3,234 in 1902; in Stepney the numbers stand 2,116 in 1901, and 1,993 in 1902. Appendix Table 3L Not given separately for 1901. 106. In the Borough of Stepney the figures are 1901. Total relief ... Indoor Medical only Other Outdoor 1902. Total relief ... Indoor Medical only Other Outdoor To Lunatics or Imbeciles 2,116 512 1,590 14 412 1,472 42 67 1,993 107. It will thus be seen that, excluding the form of pauperism repre- sented by medical relief, which, regarded solely as .a direct burden upon the rates is-of small importance, out of the 54,310 Alien Residents in Stepney, according to the Census returns of 1901, 526 in 1901 and 521 in 190217 received Poor Law relief. Borough of Stepney are :— The percentages of alien pauperism in the 1901, including medical relief excluding medical relief 1902, including medical relief excluding medical relief 108. The following figures are deserving of attention: Pauperism, 1902. Ratio per cent. borne by estimated total number of paupers to total population. ..... 50 England and Wales London County ... Stepney ... p.c. 39 097 37 096 Ratio per cent, borne by total number of Alien paupers to Alien population. 79 79 24 37 * Cannot be given. Appendix, Table 81. Appendix, Table 25. 109. In ascertaining the relative amount of crime amongst Alien Immi- grants the following figures are important. 110. In 1901 the native-born population of England and Wales was 32,280,085. The number of native-born persons sentenced to imprisonment in the year ending 31st March, 1902, was 166,579, or 0'52 per cent. 111. The total Alien population of England and Wales was 247,758. The number* of Aliens sentenced to imprisonment in the year ending 31st March, 1902, was 2,880, or 1*16 per cent. 112. The Prison Commissioners have, at our request, prepared with very considerable labour, elaborate tables set out in the Appendix, for the five years ending March 31st (1899-1903) for the purpose of throwing light upon the extent and increase of criminality amongst the Alien population of England and Wales. The first table gives numbers of foreign-born prisoners received in each year in the prisons of England and Wales, distin- guishing those received in Metropolitan and Provincial prisons. For the five years from 1899-1903, the total number of Aliens committed to prison in England and Wales was 13,114. In 1898-1899, the number of aliens was 2,181, out of 159,828, being the total number of persons committed to prison in England and Wales, and in 1902-1903 the number of alien prisoners rose to 3,449, being an increase of 50 per cent. The total number of prisoners for 1903 was not ascertained at the time the evidence was given, hut has since been furnished. It is 176,557. The number of alien prisoners in the Metropolis rose by gradual yearly increases (with one exception) from 1,143 in 1899 to 1,915 in 1903. The numbers contributed by various nationalities are shown in the second table : 23^ per cent, of the total number of prisoners in the five years were Americans, 19 per cent. Germans, and 17 per cent. Russians and Poles. The Germans in the Metropolitan prisons rose from 282 to 1899 to 474 in 1903; the Russians and Poles from 202 to 476. The numbers contributed by other countries were much smaller. 113. The other tables may be briefly summarised. Dealing with the principal categories of crime, and taking the figures relating to the metro- polis, it appears that the number of Aliens in prison for offences against the person rose from 184 in 1899 to 216 in 1903; offences against property with violence from 11 to 58; offences against property without violence from 252 to 369; forgery and offences against the coinage from 5 to 21; other offences including drunkenness, disorderly conduct, frequenting, hawking without a licence, indecency, keeping a brothel, obscene language, etc., from 676 to 941. As to the character of alien crime in the Metropolis in respect of gravity as indicated by the nature and length of sentence, the numbers of Aliens received in prisons on sentences of penal servitude in the five years in question were respectively 30, 23, 19, 40, 50; while sentences of imprison- ment rose from 1,113 in 1899 to 1,864 in 1903. Of these, however, 564 in 1899 and 853 in 1903 were sentences for fourteen days and under, and 211 and 416 respectively were sentences of one month to fourteen days. 20638 c Ll. Smith, 22150-22151, and Table 25, Appendix. XYI. Alien Criminality. Appendix, Tables 55,56. Appendix, Table 69, Appendix, Table 56. Appendix, Table 64. Appendix, Table: 64. Appendix, Tabl© 69. Appendix, Table 64. Appendix, Table 64. Appendix, Table 65. Appendix, Table 66.18 Appendix, Table 114. With regard to the number of habitual criminals among convicted ^8. aliens, as indicated by the number of previous convictions, it appears that in the Metropolis in 1899, 231 alien prisoners had one or more previous convictions recorded against them, while in 1903 the number of previously- convicted alien prisoners rose to 409. 115. We cannot but regard these figures as significant, and as having an important bearing on one of the recommendations we propose to submit. 116. The general results arrived at by the above figures are substantially J in accordance with the evidence given by Mr. McConnell, the Chairman of Sir Alfred New- the County of London Sessions, Sir Alfred Newton, and Mr. Dickinson, that ton, 10,458. there has been a substantial increase of Alien crime in London within the Dickinson, last few years. Mr. McConnell stated that of the persons charged at the 14,926. Clerkenwell Sessions in 1892 the proportion of Aliens was 7 per cent., in McConnell 1900, 11 per cent., and in 1902, 13 per cent., while at the October Sessions in 12.717* the latter year, of 69 persons charged, 15, or 22 per cent., were aliens; the 1^727' most serious increase being in burglary, house-breaking, and stealing from ' ' dwelling houses. 117. Details as to the charges made against Aliens and British subjects respectively in the H Division of the Metropolitan Police, which comprises Appendix, Table Stepney, were furnished by Superintendent Mulvany, and the Returns will 70. be found in the Appendix. Table 70, Appendix. Hayer, 13,006. 118. It will be seen that the number of Aliens charged with crimes of violence rose from 7 in 1892 to 29 in 1901, with burglary and housebreaking from 4 in 1892 to 18 in 1901, and with robbery and larceny from 135 in 1892 to 181 in 1901. A similar return was handed in by Inspector Hayer for the C Division, which comprises Soho. 119. This return gives the figures of charges against Aliens in 1892 and 1902 with the following results :— Increases.—Crimes of Violence ... Larceny and Receiving Night and Gaming Clubs Prostitution Drunkenness " Other Offences " Decrease.—Brothel Keeping 120. The result of the figures given above appears to be that there has been a substantial increase in offences committed by Aliens in the period referred to, both absolutely and relatively to population. 28 to 56 54 to 86 20 to 60 150 to 347 130 to 237 94 to 171 25 to 9 Mulvany, 8468. Hayer, 13,006, Table 121. As regards Prostitution, the evidence shows that in certain parts of London there are a large number of foreign prostitutes. In the police returns given for the C Division, where there are the greatest number of foreign women, of this class, the numbers of charges against prostitutes in 1892 were 256 against British subjects, and 150 against foreigners; in 1902 these figures were 350 and 347 respectively. In the H or Whitechapel division the numbers of similar charges in 1892 were 331 against British subjects and 13 against foreigners; in 1901, 220 against British subjects Appendix, Table and 52 against foreigners. With regard to these figures, however, it must tt' ^ borne in mind that prostitution by itself is no offence, unless it is accom- Hayer, 13,015. panied by solicitation or disorderly conduct; and that the evidence is to the • Mulvany, 8467. effect that the foreign prostitute is generally far more sober than the English. Hyder, 7365. 122. The evidence brought before us points to the fact that there is much gambling amongst the Alien population of the Metropolis, and that in a Gilmour, 21,253. large proportion of the prosecutions for keeping and frequenting gaming houses the accused were foreigners. White, S., 7586. 123. Evidencehas also been given as to the prevalence among the Aliens of the illicit distillation and distribution of spirits. It is probable that before the creation of the State monopoly by the Russian Government some of the immigrants mayhave been engaged inthe manufacture of spirits intheir own Highmore,9865. country. Mr. Highmore, Senior Assistant Solicitor of Inland Revenue, stated19 that this offence was greatly on the increase, and that certain men take advantage of the ignorance of the newly-arrived " Greeners " to lure them Highmore, 9,950. into the trade. 124. The Jewish authorities have issued leaflets warning the Immigrants 9948. against " persons who offer them employment in connection with the making and sale of spirits." 125. As closely allied with the subject of crime, we must point to the pre- valence of systematised bankruptcy amongst foreigners, the chief offenders being Germans and Russians and Russian Poles. Mr. E. Leadam Hough, the Senior Official Receiver, who supplied some elaborate and most instructive tables, showed that during the three years ending March 1903, whereas the proportion of Alien population to the whole population was 2*98 per cent., the receiving orders against Aliens in the Metro- polis represented 14| per cent, of the total number issued; the unsecured liabilities amounting to upwards of 16 per cent, of the total unsecured liabilities. It must, however, be noted that a few of the bankruptcies referred to represented failures of considerable magnitude. Mr. Hough further stated that the above-mentioned percentages by no means represented all the bankrupts of foreign extraction. The system of punctual payment at the outset of their career, with a view to inspire a false confidence in the minds of creditors, was also fully explained by Mr. J. L. Burton, who as Editor of the " Shoe and Leather Record " has special opportunities of watching its working and results. Other witnesses also spoke in strong terms against the prevalence of " fraudulent bankruptcies," whereby during the above-mentioned period of three years the aggregate sum of £1,220,850 was lost to creditors. 126. Upon the industrial and economic aspects the Alien Immigration there has been great conflict of testimony. Since the recent immigration of Aliens a new system of subdivision of labour in the trades of bootmaking, ready-made clothing and cabinet-making has been introduced. The result has been the production of a different and a cheaper article. Leadam Hough, 22,733. 22,808, Table B. (note.) 22,730. 22,804. 22,773. Burton, 13,250. 22,808, Table B. XVII.—Indus- trial and Economic Aspects op Alien Immigration. Silvergtone, 1875. Solomon, 3116. Evans, 11,705. Onion, 2488. Anistell, 12,205v Thompson, 14,703. ■ O'Grady, T., 13,522. Lyons, I., 3253. Whatley, 13,747. Connellan, 15,072. Joseph, 16,178. 127. Against this, however, must be placed the evidence of several witnesses to the effect that cheap articles of alien manufacture, particularly as concerns the shoemaking trade in the East End of London, are produced under conditions as to hours of labour and rates of wages which are far below the standard acceptable to British workmen. 128. It is beyond dispute that many of the Aliens who arrive in this country are unskilled and without adequate mea!hs, and the result is, at any rate in London, that they are compelled to submit to conditions of labour which must have some influence in producing cheapness of price. Many of these men, no doubt, in time become skilled workmen in the particular department of the shoemaking or other industry which they may adopt, but the continuous stream of fresh arrivals produces a glut in the unskilled labour market, and a very severe competition in the lower grades of alien labour itself. It is, however, clear that the effect of new arrivals upon the labour market is felt most strongly in London, where the organisation of alien workmen for self-protection seldom seems to be very effective or lasting. But in the provinces, where the influx of unskilled " Greeners " is slower and smaller, the alien workmen seem to be sufficiently organised to secure better conditions than prevail among them in the Metropolis. 129. The development of the three main industries—tailoring, cabinet- making and shoemaking—in which the aliens engage, has undoubtedly been beneficial in various ways; it has increased the demand for, and the manu- facture of, not only goods made in this country (which were formerly Finn, 20,271. imported from abroad), but of the materials used in them, thus indirectly ^r^™risch' giving employment to native workers. ' ' Lyons, L., 14,155. Solomons, 20,535. Freedman, 20,407. Policoff, 21,026. 130. As to the displacement of native labour, evidence has been very con- O'Grady, J., flictinp'. The English and Scotch Trade Union witnesses have contended 14,009. a ° Connellan, 20638 c 2 15,018. Smillie, 22,954,20 that there is distinct displacement of the native worker by the Alien, while Weber, 195:32. on the other hand it has been contended that alien labour is only or Richards, 211:57. chiefly employed in doing work for which the native workman is unsuited Brown,J., 11,348. or js unwilling to perform. 131. On the whole we arrive at the conclusion, after weighing the evfdence of both sides, that it has not been proved that there is any serious direct dis- placement of skilled English labour. But it is, of course, impossible to say how much, if any, of the work now done by alien labour would have been performed by native female or other labour had there been no alien immi- gration into this country. 132. The difficulty of arriving at any definite conclusions as to the industrial and economic effect of Alien Immigration is much increased by the considerations laid before us by Mr. Llewellyn Smith. ILLSmith, 133. From these it appears that:-— 22656-7,22663. (1) Changes in the rates of wages and the rates paid for piecework in trades which are in a transitional state as concerns methods of production, and especially in the trades most frequently mentioned before the Com- missi6n, are not trustworthy indications of the general increase or decrease of earnings among the whole body of workers engaged in the work concerned; and that / (2) There is a form of indirect competition, which works by changing the taste of the consumer and leads to the substitution of one class of goods for another, and it is impossible to determine the effect of such competition on the workers affected by the change of taste with any approach to exactitude. I ■ 134. Leaving the skilled labour market out of the question, we think it proved that the industrial conditions under which a large number of aliens work in London fall below the standard which ought, alike in the interests of the workmen and the community at large, to be maintained. 135. The effects of Alien Immigration are not confined to the occupa- Amstell, 12,209. tions mentioned above. The demand for labour in them is not unlimited, Lyons, L., 14,113. especially since the shoemaking and tailoring trades are seasonal and _i ,» 77-.Q1'706' fluctuate widely between periods of slackness and activity. There is con- Ball e?951 ' i sequently a tendency for the immigrants to overflow into other employments; Sharp, 7992. for instance, evidence as to the large increase of foreign costermongers and other street traders has been placed before us. This has caused ill-feeling and friction between them and the large body of Englishmen employed in the same trades. Brown, G., 2382. 136. Complaint was also made by several witnesses with regard to the ill Silver, 2628. effects which immigration has had upon the native shopkeepers. Their er68914 ' interests have suffered in two ways, for while there is a natural tendency, Walker 8958. and even, with regard to certain articles of food, a religious obligation, Cavalier, 9648. among a large class of the immigrants to deal only with persons of their own race, the great displacement of population caused by immigration has operated simultaneously to disperse the former customers of the English retailers. We consider that these complaints are not without foundation. XVIII.—Aliens 137. The following Table, showing the alien population in certain in other Foreign Countries, was placed before us by the representative of the Board Countries. of tr|de. f21 (23.)—Alien Population in certain Foreign Countries and .the United Kingdom. [Based on the Official Statistics of the various Countries.] Population at last Census for which particulars are available. Proportion of Aliens to Total Population at previous Census. Country. Date of last Census. Date of previous Census. Total. Of which were Aliens. Proportion of Aliens to Total Population. Per cent. Per cent. Norway J ...... 3 Dec. 1900 1 Jan. 1891 2,221,477 67,832* 3*05 2*41 Sweden:}: 31 „ 1890 31 Dec. 1880 4,784.981 10,112 0*21 0*09 f Denmark ...... 1 Feb. 1890 2 Feb. 1880 2,172,380 70,900* 3*26 3-19 Germany ...... 1 Dec. 1900 1 Dec. 1890 56,367,178 778,698 1*38 0*88 Holland ...... 31 „ 1899 31 „ 1889 5,104,137 52,989 1*04 1-08 Belgium ...... 31 „ 1890 31 „ 1880 6,069,321 171,438 2-82 2-60 France 24 Mar. 1901 12 Apr. 1891 38,961,945 1,037,778 2-66 2-95 Spain ...... 31 Dec. 1897 31 Dec. 1887 18,121,47 2 36,706 0-20 0*23 Switzerlandf ... 1 ., 1900 1 „ 1888 3,327,336 318,698* 9-58 6-62 Austria:}: ...... 31 „ 1900 31 ,, 1890 26,150,708 517,903 1-98 1-77 Hungary J ... 31 „ 1890 31 ,, 1880 17,463,791 179,809 1-03 0-77 United States 1 June 1900 1 June 1890 76,303,387 10,460,085* 13*71 14*76 United Kingdom ... 31 Mar. 1901 6 Apr. 1891 41,45S,72L . 286,925 0*69 0*58 (23.)—Alien Population in certain Foreign Countries and .the United Kingdom. [Based on the Official Statistics of the various Countries.] * Foreign-born population. t Provisional figures. The total population according to the definite figures was 3,315,443. X The following particulars in the cases of Norway, Sweden, Austria, and Hungary are added for the purposes of comparison :— Country. At last available Census. At previous Census. Norway—Aliens (exclusive of Swedes) ............... Sweden— „ ( „ Norwegians)............... Austria— „ ( „ Hungarians)............... Hungary— „ ( „ Austrians) ............... No. 18,170 6,731 No info: 20,172 Per cent. 0-82 0-14 rmation 0-12 Per cent. 0-50 0*09 0-81 0-10 * Foreign-born population. t Provisional figures. The total population according to the definite figures was 3,315,443. X The following particulars in the cases of Norway, Sweden, Austria, and Hungary are added for the purposes of comparison :— 138. It will be observed that the percentage of Alien Immigrants in this country is comparatively small. Our insular position, however, frees us from 1 that interchange of population which occurs between countries separated only by an undiscernible boundary. In some countries, mentioned LI. Smith, 22,528. in the above Table, children born of resident Aliens are enumerated as Aliens. In this country they are not sb enumerated, being regarded as McLeoi, 527. native born. In regard to the increase of our Alien population from 0.58 per cent, in 1891 to 0.69 in 1901, some effect must be given to the evidence (above referred to) that greater care was taken in 1901 to ascertain the number of resident Aliens than on previous occasions. 139. Some addition to the number of Foreigners arriving in this country XIX.—Cattle- Is derived from the men in charge of cattle imported principally from the men. United States, Canada and Argentina, In 1902 there arrived in Liverpool - by sea 8,120 cattlemen, of whom 2,590 were British and 5,530 were Harris, 21,681. Foreigners. It is difficult to trace the destination of these Foreigners LI. Smith, 22,552. after arrival here. Mr. Llewellyn Smith stated that there was " a balance inwards" of 2,343, that is, " they do not go out from Liverpool by sea, " but.....a very considerable number go home by the Continent." This is confirmed by the statement of persons connected with the shipping trade at Hull and Grimsby, "that a stream of cattlemen with tickets from " Liverpool had passed out to Hamburg from Grimsby and Hull." It may therefore be assumed that the number of cattlemen who permanently remain in England is but small. 140. The number of Aliens naturalised in this country during the year XX.—Natural- 1902 was 788, being an increase upon the numbers in former years; of these, ised Aliens.22 Home Office information. XXI.—Condi- tion of Aliens after Arrival in this Country. White, S., 7,556. "Williams, Dr.H., 6174. Rev. W. H. Davies, 9,714. Amstell, 12,365. O'Grady, T., 13,521. Loane, Dr. J., 4,575. White, A., 376. Montagu, 16,805. Silverstone, 1,848. Ward, 18,311. Mansfield, 18 399. Denniss, 18,288. Mather, 10,361.* Mansfield, 18,399. XXII.—Over- crowding. ' Murphy, Dr. S., 3,968,4,767. Loane, Dr., 4,562. Thomas, Dr., 5,739. Harper, 11,566. Rygate, 5,845. Foot, 6,576. Rose, 9,129. Appendix, Table 58. Appendix, Table 59. Appendix, Tables 35 and 35 (a). 383 were resident in London, the rest distributed throughout the United Kingdom. Of these naturalised Immigrants, 766 were Europeans, of whom 458 were Russians, 156 Germans, 49 Austrians, with minor contributions from other nationalities. 141. Whilst we have referred to the condition of the Immigrants imme- diately upon their arrival, it is more important to consider their condition and habits after they have commenced their permanent sojourn here. 142. On these subjects we examined many witnesses, holding strong and different opinions. , As these opinions were often in conflict, it is difficult to be guided by them to a positive result. 143. It must be recognised that the majority of these Aliens arrive in this country in a state of comparative poverty, and from the conditions of the voyage no great recent attention can have been given to cleanliness. For the most part they make their way to certain portions of the East End of London. Here they find an insufficient house accommodation, and so, for causes dealt with in this Report, being unwilling to leave the locality, they are housed under conditions most unfavourable to cleanliness and good sanitation. The poverty of the unskilled Alien still continues. His earnings represent a barely sufficient means of support. Whatever his wish may be he has, for a time, no means of improving the habits and conditions of his life. 144. But, as time proceeds, many of these men enter upon a different phase of existence. With the possession of greater skill and knowledge their earn- ings increase, and they are enabled to improve their modes of life. The balance of evidence before us is favourable to the Aliens after they have reached this stage. They appear to be industrious and thrifty. One of the complaints against them is that their hours of labour are too long, and that their tendency is to grow rich. They certainly are sober in habit, and are as law-abiding as the natives around them. The number of criminals amongst them is dealt with above. They send their children regularly to school, and are rewarded by the quickness with which these children acquire knowledge and the number of prizes gained by t'hem. A defect alleged against both alien parents and children is a want of truthfulness. Mr. Mansfield, the head teacher of a Stepney Board School, thus describes the alien scholar. " The children of the newly-arrived foreigners include a section that are very poor, dejected in appearance, wanting in physical force, and below the average Christian and Jew in brain power. They are, as a rule, less clean in their persons and habits than their fellows. I have, however, noticed that a general improvement has often followed in the wake of improved means of support and healthier surroundings; never- theless, so far as my experience extends, I see no reason why the bulk of the Jewish lads that have come under my control should not develop into a class of men possessing the spirit of loyalty and proud of the privileges of citizenship. . . Then I deal with special traits o? character of native and foreign Jewish children; (1) Regularity and punctuality of" attendance. The percentage of attendance made by the children is" never less than 90 per cent, and often reaches 95 per cent, of the whole- school. (2) Strong persistency of effort, often followed by success far above the average. (3) A ready response to the call for an expression of practical sympathy for the sick and afflicted." 145. The most difficult question to be dealt with in connection with Alien Immigration is that of " overcrowding." The fact is clearly established that in the East End of London—notably in certain areas within the Borough of Stepney—there exists a most serious amount of overcrowding, greatly increased by the continuous gravitation into the district of large numbers of Aliens from Eastern Europe. It is also proved that the increase in the- foreign population within these areas has caused the abandonment of houses, almost of whole streets, by the English working classes, and their occupa- tion by foreigners. It wiil be observed that the general population of the* Borough of Stepney has grown as follows :—1881, 282,676 ; 1891, 285,116; 1901, 298,600. The alien population during those periods has increased in- much greater degree, as is thus shown:—1881, 15,998; 1891, 32,284; 1901, 54,310.; In these last figures the children born in this country of Alien- parents are not included. 146. The increase of Alien population is not equal throughout the Borough of Stepney. It is intensified in some of its districts. In the registration district of White-chapel (within the area of the Borough of Stepney) the*23 foreign population appears to have increased from 9,660 in 1881 to 29,188 in 1901; the latter being 37.06 per cent, of the total population. In the registration district of St. George's-in-the-East (also within the Borough of Stepney) the foreign population has increased from. 2,765 in 1881 to 13,746 in 1901; the latter being 28.02 per cent, of the total population. In the registration district of Stepney (also forming a portion of the Borough of Stepney) the foreign population is enumerated as 708 in 1881 and 1,849 in 1901; the latter being 3.19 per cent, of the total population. In the regis- tration district of Mile End Old Town (also forming part of the Borough of Stepney) the foreign population is recorded as 2,865 in 18.81 and 9,527 in 1901; the latter being 8.44 per cent, of the total population. 147. In the Borough of Bethnal Green the foreign population has increased from 925 in 1881 to 4,634 in 1901; the latter figure representing 3.57 per cent, of the total population. 148. It will thus be seen that during the 20 years from 1881 to 1901 the population of Stepney has, by virtue of Alien Immigration, received an abnormal addition of 38,312 persons, without including the children born in this country of alien parents. 149. It is true that if these Aliens had not become residents in the East Emanuel, 16,601 End of London the district would probably have been overcrowded. Econo- Joseph, 15,785. mic and commercial causes would have tended much to produce this result. The proximity of the City of London to these districts has caused a demand Solomon, L., for sites on which to erect factories, warehouses, breweries, and offices, and 18,140. land has also been needed for the extension of railways, and for the erection jfrucT'lS 3752' of school buildings. To obtain such sites and land clearances of many resi- i>aTieg Rev- w. dential houses have been made. In one instance, upwards of 500' persons 9,840. ' were dispossessed of their dwellings in order to extend a brewery. Com- Brown,J., 11,104. paratively few residential houses have been substituted for those removed. ?^goQn' Under such circumstances these clearances: do not tend to diminish the ' population. As soon as the new buildings are erected they are filled by persons working in them, whose natural tendency is to obtain dwellings as Emanuel, 16,601. near as possible to the place of their employment. Thus the clearances of dwelling-houses and the erection of buildings used for industrial purposes alike tend to produce a greater demand for house accommodation in the districts so affected. It seems, therefore, probable that even if there had Gordon, H., been no increase of alien population, overcrowding would exist in the 17,680. Borough of Stepney. But be this as it may, the 38,312 Aliens who have arrived in the borough since 1881 have had to be provided with house accommodation, and have of necessity ta;ken great share in causing the regrettable condition of the district in respect to overcrowding. It seems impossible to draw a comparison between the house accommodation existing in the borough during past and present times. Many small houses have been removed, and large blocks of tenements erected in their place. In the Murphy, Dr. S., Census figures, these block tenements are enumerated as one house, and 4,069. therefore no positive comparison can be drawn. McLeod, 690. 150. But some very interesting evidence on this subject was given by Mr. Gordon H. H. H. Gordon. This gentleman is a foreigner by birth, and a member of the 17,594.' Jewish faith. He had taken much trouble to collect information, and with great industry prepared diagrams and maps for the purpose of placing that information before us. From his evidence explaining certain diagrams it 17,683-17,680. will be seen that whilst the population of Stepney increased between 1881 and 1901 from 282,676 to ,298,600, the number of inhabited houses in the borough had fallen from 35,300 in 1881 to 31,500 in 1901. But tliis diminu- tion is subject to the observation that no comparison can be made between the accommodation afforded in many instances by the large block tenements erected in place of the smaller houses cleared away. 151. Mr. Gordon also adduced specific instances where the clearance of inhabited houses in Stepney had not been met by replacement of population by new erections. 152. Thus in one instance 450 houses, accommodating 3,750 people, were 17,698. pulled down, and only 2,559 were rehoused. Again, Mr. Gordon stated that Loane, 4,509. in the year 1902, 2,600 persons had been dishoused, and onlv 1,500 had been Gordon, H 71,726.24 Gordon, H., replaced. It also appeared that one of the first acts of the Stepney Borough 1,7,708. 'Council after its formation was to write to certain Artisans' Dwellings Com- panies calling their attention " to the overwhelming lack of housing accom- modation in the borough." 153. Summarising the evidence on this subject, it is clear that, whilst a very large amount of residential property in Stepney has been converted to other purposes, the new tenements erected have not accommodated so many people as have been displaced, and the increase of 13,484 in population during the last ten years has been crowded into a diminished house room. Harper, 10,898. 154. For the purpose of localising the positions of the greatest overcrowd- ing, we have been furnished by the Statistical Department of the London County Council with a statement showing the measure of overcrowding— upon the basis of more than two persons living night and day in one room— in the several registration sub-districts in the Borough of Stepney. In the v-able 49). entire borough it appears that the total population so overcrowded was 88,683 in 1891 and 99,533 in 1901,—an increase of 10,850, or 12.23 per cent. 155. As will be seen from the following table, the highest percentage of overcrowding has been reached in the registration sub-district of Spitalfields, namely, 55.1 of the population:— Registration Sub-district. Population over- crowded 1901. Percentage of population overcrowded to total population. Civil Parishes comprised in each Registration Sub-district. Spitalfields......... 15,400 55*1 Norton Folgate, Old Artillery Ground and Spitalfields. Mile End New Town 12,974 45*2 Mile End New Town, Whitechapel (part). Goodman's Fields...... 7,418 33-6 St. Botolph, Aldgate (including the- Tower of London), and White- chapel (part). St. George's in the North... St. John 19,682 2,730 48-0 33-7 | St. George's in the East. Shad, well......... 3,806 35-4 Shad well and Wapping. Ratcliff ......... 3,307 22*3 Ratcliff. Limehouse......... 7,322 22-6 Limehouse. Mile End Old Town, 16,309 27-4 ) Western. Mile End Old Town. Mile End Old Town, 10,585 19*8 j Eastern. 99,533 33-3 156. But these figures do not sufficiently exemplify the extent of the over- Harper, 11,568. crowding in smaller areas. Whilst the Dercentage of overcrowding in the whole of the Spitalfields registration sub-district, according to the above table, reaches 55.1 of the total population, there are no fewer than 13 of the 20 enumeration districts of which the Spitalfields registration sub-district is composed—in which the percentage of overcrowding much exceeds that percentage—in one instance reaching as high as 85.5 per cent. Belclier, 4,162, 157. Of the nature and extent of the overcrowding we have had many ^ illustrations given to us. We have been told of rooms, or cellars, occupied T^er6 8 628 by more than one family—of rooms used as workshops by day and over- Davie's, Rev'. W. crowded as sleeping rooms by night—of ten houses (of 51 rooms, about H., 9,728. ' eight feet by nine feet) occupied by 254 people, and many other instances of a similar character. But in the instances which have been adduced in evidence the overcrowding has not been confined to cases in which there has been a mere excess of numbers living and sleeping in a house or tenement.. Silver, 2,627. They have included many cases in which the overcrowding must have a Shead, 9,055. destructive effect upon the morals of the people. Apart from the occupancy Barrett, 2,143. 0£ one room by adults and children of all ages, being the members of one family, cases have been referred to, in the course of the evidence, in which Pam, 9,305. more thaji one family (lodgers of both sexes being taken in) have occupied one- Holditch, 9,382. sleeping room, with merely a cubical division of sheets, whilst the same room has been overcrowded during the day time by those using it as a workshop.25 158. Thus within the walls of the houses wherein such overcrowding exists, heallh, cleanliness, decency, even morality, must necessarily be sacri- ficed. But grave results other than those mentioned above flow from over- Pearce, 8>994. crowding. By the occupation of one house by many persons a higher rent H' y can be paid for it than if it were occupied by a few. An offer of this higher io,045. ' rent tempts the landlord to dispossess the occupying tenant, who cannot Bi'own, G., 2,391. afford to pay an abnormally high rent. There was strong evidence before Dalton, Rev. A. us that many of those thus turned out were native workpeople, and that g 230 their houses have been occupied by Aliens, who, by sub-letting and much Fillmore, J. W., overcrowding, provide the means of paying the high rent which secures the 8,805. creation of their tenancy. 159. It was, however, proved before us that rents have of late years Joseph, 15,762. increased in different parts of London, but whilst a comparison between such increase in different localities is not obtainable, the East End of Harper, 10,987. London appears to have suffered most in this respect. 160. In addition to this increase in rent, a system called "key money" Foot, 6,579. has sprung up. This term represents the payment by the incoming tenant Davies, Rev. W. of a sum of money to the landlord or to the outgoing tenant, or to both, as a H-> 9,741. ^ premium payable before he can obtain possession of the house. It was rown» •> ' stated by Mr. Harper that out of 686 cases visited, deposits were paid Harper, 11,538- in 347 instances amounting to £3,757, or an average of £10 8s. 3d.; and U^l. that in 86 cases the deposits, amounting to £687, were paid to the landlord, and in 261 cases the deposits, amounting to £3,070, were paid to the outgoing tenant; also that, of the deposits paid, thirty, amounting to £215, or an average of £7'17, were paid by British tenants, while 317, amounting to £3,542, or an average of £1117, were paid by alien tenants. The inference drawn from these facts by the witness was that the alien 11,549. tenant was prepared to make much greater sacrifice than the British tenant in order to secure a tenement. This system can only be traced to the keen competition that exists for house accommodation in these districts, Silver, 2,663. where the demand greatly exceeds the supply. 161. The same substitution of alien for native tenants of private dwelling Williams, A. T., houses has extended to the occupation of shops. That such a change has l,-<86. to some extent occurred seems to be established, but the change is also due Wai™e5^5,l78, to the fact that the Alien Immigrant prefers to deal with those who are of a"''' his own race, speaking his own language, rather than with strangers. Walker, 8,961. 162. But, in dealing with the local incidence of Alien Immigration in the Metropolis, it is to be observed that the Borough of Stepney and other contiguous districts in the East End of London are not alone the areas in which side by side with a considerable foreign population there exists a regrettable amount of overcrowding. Eor instance, in the Registration Harper, 13,873. District of St. Giles, Bloomsbury, there were in 1881 a foreign-born Table Id. population of but 2 63 per cent, and in 1891 510 per cent., whereas in 1901 the foreign population had increased to 12 53 per cent. In the latter year the Census Returns show (upon the basis of more than two persons living in a room in tenements of one to four rooms) a population of 206 living in " overcrowded " conditions. At the same time, as exemplifying the difficulty Table 3a. of assigning " Alien Immigration" as a contributory cause, it has been stated in evidence that the above percentage of overcrowding is less by 9'2 per cent, than in 1891. The highest percentage of overcrowding in any Enumeration District in the St. Giles Registration District in 1901 was Table 3c, 560; whilst in the Holborn Registration District (with a percentage of but 3'29 of foreign-born population) the percentage of population living in Table Id. overcrowded conditions is stated to be 34 2 and the highest percentage in Table 3a. any Enumeration District in the Holborn Registration District 60*1. Table 3o- 163. In the City of Westminster (comprising the Westminster, Strand, Harper, 13,873. and St. George's Hanover Square Registration Districts) there was in 1881 Table id. a foreign-born population of 2 89 per cent., in 1891 of 4 21 per cent., and in 1901 of 6'46 per cent. It cannot, however, be said that the increase in the number of Aliens had any appreciable effect upon " overcrowding " in the Table 3a. Borough, since the percentage of population overcrowded in 1901 was 13'0, 20638 T)26 whilst in 1891 it stood at 19'5. The highest percentage of overcrowding- Harper, reached in 1901 was in one of the Enumeration Districts of the Registra- Table 3b. tion Sub-district of St. Margaret and St. John, Westminster, namely 521. White, A., 980. 164. All these results, injurious to the interests of the native resident,. Hodge, 8,038; have tended to produce within the affected districts a great amount of TVHte' A irritation and ill-feeling against the Alien Immigrants, who are regarded 1(^149!' * as intruders. It certainly is desirable that these feelings should, if ' possible, be removed and allayed. 165. Desirable as it is that' the overcrowding should cease to exist, it seems probable that unless some restrictive measures are taken to stay it there is but little probability of it even decreasing. General measures may- do much to deal with overcrowding in districts existing under normal conditions, but here in Stepney and the surrounding districts an inflow of population from abnormal sources is continually proceeding and will not,, as far as can be seen, be removed unless some restriction'is employed. Still, the general law and the administration of it ought to be exercised to the full, and, if necessary, improved and strengthened in order to deal as far as possible with the illegal overcrowding now existing. Harper, 13,937. Thomas, Dr., 5,652. Murphy, Dr. S. P., 4,013. 4,020. 3,973. 166. In relation to the law and administration affecting overcrowding, it may be observed that the statistics of overcrowding quoted in the foregoing pages are not based upon the cubical capacity of the houses or tenements, but upon the standard applied to " overcrowding" for purposes of the Census, namely, that not more than two persons shall occupy each room. The " bye-laws," however, which have been made under the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, in the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney with respect to houses let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one family, require the provision of 300 cubic feet of free air space for each person over 10 years of age, and of 150 cubic feet of free air space for each person under 10 occupying a room which is exclusively used as a sleeping apart- ment; but where a room is not so exclusively used the provision of 4005 cubic feet of free air space for each person over 10 and of 200 feet for each person under 10 is required. *167. Under these bye-laws, the keeper, or, where there is no keeper, the- landlord, of a lodging-house is required upon demand to furnish full information to the Council of the Borough as to (a) the total number of rooms in the house, (b) the total number of rooms let in lodgings, or occu- pied by members of more than one family, (c) the manner of use of each room, (d) the number, age, and sex of the occupants of each room used for sleeping, (e) the Christian name and surname of the lodger, (f) the amount of rent or charge per week payable by each lodger, and (g) the Christian name and surname of the landlord; and thereupon the house is registered and brought within the operation of the bye-laws. Upon such registration, the medical officer of health and sanitary inspector become entitled, at all times, to access for the purpose of inspection to the interior of any room or rooms in such house; whilst specific obligations are imposed: upon the landlord, keeper, or lodger in regard to the cleansing of such house. Every person convicted of an offence under the bye-laws is rendered liable for every such offence to a penalty not exceeding 51., and in the case of a continuing offence to a further penalty of 40s. for each day after written notice of offence from the Council. 168. It should be stated, however, that the operation of these bye-laws has been necessarily restricted by the judgment of the High Court in the case of Weatheritt «. Cantlay, under which " a building .which is divided into separate tenements which are let as artisans' dwellings is not a ' house' within the meaning of Section 94 of the Public Health (London) Act, 1891,. so as to enable the sanitary authority to make bye-laws for its regulation." 169. Apart from the salutary provisions contained in these bye-laws, it should be stated that under the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, the defini- tion of " nuisance " within the meaning of the Act includes " overcrowding " which is likely to be injurious to health, and under this Act proceedings may- be taken by the local authority against any person " by whose act, default,.27 be allowed to enter or to remain in the country. But nothing in the 1902. ' ' nature of .a right either to enter or to remain is recognised, except so far as- such a right may be the subject of a Treaty with the nation to whom the Alien belongs. For sufficient reason, in the case of some countries without the assigning of any reason at all, the Alien may be ordered to depart or be refused admittance. Sometimes the law specifies certain cases in which this power may be exercised, chiefly cases of pauperism, or conviction for crime, or bad character, and lays down the procedure to be followed. But there is in most of the codes .a general power of expulsion, if, for reason of State, it should be considered expedient. 177. It may be useful to give a short summary of the principal laws of' different countries in illustration of this general statement. German Empire. 178. In Germany it is stated, in reply to the official request for informa- Dr. Von. tion that in most of the States on the frontiers of the Empire special regula- Au»^9t]i*°1902 tions for the admission of Aliens have not been enacted. The law regulating ug" ' ' the Passport System of October, 1867, which .applies mutatis mutandis to the German Empire; provides (Article 2) that foreigners are not required to- carry papers of identity either on entering, or on leaving, the limits of the Empire, nor during their residence there, nor in the course of their journeys within the territory. Foreigners, however, as well as subjects of the- Empire, are obliged to furnish satisfactory proof of their identity when officially required to do so (Article 3). On the other hand, if the security of the Empire or of a single State thereof, or if law and order should be threatened in consequence of war, external disturbances or other phenomena, passports may be required by the Imperial Authority either generally, or in particular districts, for the purpose of proceeding from or to certain foreign countries (Article 9). the United States. See Berlin Memo. June 9, 1902.29 179. In the Kingdom of Prussia a decree dated January 3rd, ,1896, was Prussia. issued by the Minister of the Interior, directing local authorities to keep lists of foreigners residing within their district. " This will render it possible to remove any undesirable elements from abroad immediately on their arrival, and before they have permanently established themselves here." The decree goes on to mention other advantages which will result, and amongst them, the prevention of the inclusion of foreigners in electoral lists, " as frequently occurs on their being called on for military service." It then proceeds to prescribe the particulars of the lists to be kept, and the duties of the police in relation thereto. 180. In Bavaria, by laws of April, 1868, and February, 1872, provision is Bavaria. made for requiring foreigners, as a condition of allowing them to reside in any parish in the Kingdom, to produce evidence of their nationality. There are also provisions for the expulsion of foreigners, for specified periods, from the parish in which they reside in the event of their applying for relief, and continuing to be without sufficient means of subsistence or for non-payment of local rates, or, after conviction, for certain criminal offences, or for public prostitution. Where a foreigner has been expelled from any parish under the provisions of the law, the police authorities may expel him from the Kingdom during the period covered by the local prohibition should public necessity appear to require it. "The Ministry of State is empowered to refuse admission into the Kingdom to foreigners or to expel them, from Bavarian territory in the interests of public necessity." There is also a provision for reciprocity in the treatment of foreigners, "The Government has the right to issue a decree subjecting the permission to foreigners to reside to the same restrictive conditions to which Bavarian subjects are subjected with regard to their residence in the country to which the respective foreigners belong." 181. The Laws of the Grand Duchy of Baden contain similar provisions. Baden. 182. In the territory of Hamburg there are detailed regulations providing Hamburg, for proof of identity and notification of arrival and departure which do not require special notice. 183. In Alsace-Lorraine there are more stringent regulations requiring Alsace-Lorraine, passports to be carried by persons coming from the French frontier. There are also provisions for reporting to the Police after arrival and for the issue of certificates to persons who intend to take up permanent residence. 184. In Wurtemberg newly-arrived residents are required to report them- Wurtember^. selves and if they are not in possession of sufficient means to support themselves and their family, a declaration is "fexpected" of the manner in which they propose to defray the expenditure necessary for this purpose. This provision appears to apply to natives as well as foreigners. The refusal of the right to reside rests with the District Council subject to a right of appeal. 185. In Switzerland the laws affecting foreigners are cantonal, but are Switzerland.— substantially identical in each canton. In substance any resident foreigner Sir W. Conyng- is required to take out a per mis de sejour within six days of his- arrival. If May~23 1903 he desires to become domiciled, he must obtain a permis d'etablissement. aDL(i enclosure. These licences are liable to revocation in case of misconduct, insolvency, and other circumstances, which render his presence undesirable, and there is Law of 1844 the following general provision (Article 28): " Le Conseil d'Etat en vertu (Geneva) w x \ / k i • "j p aq de son pouvoir administratif supreme a toujours le droit de renvoyet dti Canton les Etrangers dont le sejour pourrait porter atteinte auoo interets du pays ou ci la surete de VEtat." 186. The cantonal law gives power of expulsion from the canton, and the expelled person may go to any adjoining canton, leaving the authorities of the canton into which the expelled foreigner may come to deal with him. Here again the expulsion of foreigners is a matter of police adminis- trative regulations under very wide legal powers. 187. In France, as in 'Switzerland, by the law of 1849 (Article 1), a France.— permission to establish domicile is required, and the permission may be r Law of 1849, Article 1.30 Austria.— Despatch of Mr. R. Milbank, June 14,1902. Mr. Rennie enclosed in above Hungary.— Memo, by Sir F. Plunkett, Jan. 28,1903. Italy.— Sir R. Rodd, May 24,1902. Russia.— Sir C. Scott, August 11,1902. Appendix Table 23. withdrawn by administrative order at any time before naturalization. Article 7 gives a general power to the Minister of the Interior to order any foreigner travelling, or resident in France, to quit French territory immediately, and to have him taken to the frontiers, and this power may in Frontier Departments be exercised by the Prefect on condition of referring immediately to the Minister of the Interior. A law of August 9th, 1893, made further provision for the registration of foreigners who settle therein with the object of exercising a profession, trade, or industry. 188. In Austria it is stated that there are practically no laws relating to the Immigration of Aliens into the country. There are, however, the powers usually existing on the Continent, vested in the Executive, and exercised by the police, for excluding or expelling Aliens whose presence in the country is undesirable. 189. " Austrian legislation contains no regulations for restricting the entry of Alien Immigrants into the Empire either by sea or over the land frontier. So long as Aliens and their families lead respectable lives and are not a burden on public charity, they may make their domicile in any municipality in Austria, and are not required to produce any proof relative to their financial resources. On the other hand there exists the right to expel persons whose presence is considered prejudicial to public order and safety." 190. In Hungary, the control of the Immigration of Aliens is regulated mainly by Ministerial Orders, which provide, under penalties, for keeping of lists of Aliens by the Communal Authority, and render liable to expulsion Aliens who " have not furnished satisfactory particulars, or cannot make evident that they dispose of sufficient means to support themselves and their families, or whose stay is deemed to be suspicious with regard to the interest of the State, the public safety and order." 191. In Italy " no special law exists on the subject" of the Immigration of Aliens. The Italian Police Law (Article 90) renders a foreigner liable to expulsion upon release from prison after conviction. It is provided by regulations that, if the Prefect of the Province in which the foreigner is liberated considers that expulsion is not desirable, or if the foreigner is compromised with his own country for political reasons, for evading con- scription, for desertion, or for offences for which his extradition has been demanded, the matter must be laid before the Minister of the Interior. A foreigner expelled under Article 90 may not return without special authoriza- tion from the Minister of the Interior under pain of arrest for not more than six months, and a second expulsion. Article 92 provides that Prefects of Frontier Provinces may send back, at the frontier, foreigners who cannot give an account of themselves, and are unprovided with means. 192. In Russia " there has been no immigration except on the smallest scale." Legally, Aliens, with the exception of Jews, are allowed to enter without hindrance provided their passports are in order, and the sanitary regulations are fulfilled; but in a country where police supervision is ,so strict and their powers so great, neither the expulsion, nor the refusal of admission of Aliens considered undesirable, presents any difficulty. 193. From the short statements of the law and practice of the countries above enumerated it is clear that on the Continent the question of the admission and still more of the expulsion of undesirable Aliens is a matter of police regulation; and to be dealt with rather according to the circumstances of each case, than on any general or comprehensive principles. We have no information, and are not aware that any figures exist, as to the extent to which these large powers are used. In this connection it may be observed that the statistics furnished by Mr. Llewellyn Smith, shewing the proportion of the alien to the native population in some of the principal countries of Europe, appear to lead to the inference that those countries do not pursue the policy of imposing any extensive restriction on the admission, or settle- ment, of Aliens. While in the United Kingdom, the proportion of aliens to natives is onlv ,6>9 per cent., in Germany it was at the time of the last census, 1.38 per cent.; in France 2.66: in Austria 1.98; and in Switzerland 9.58. '31 194. It must, moreover, be borne in mincl that the exercise of the powers Regulations of of rejection and expulsion by European countries, is regulated, in some ^international degree, by International Law and by Treaties, and in some cases by mere Law an(j informal agreements. International Law recognises the right of any nation Treaties. to expel foreigners, and it would seem that, unless the action is in contraven- See Berlin tionof a Treaty, no nation can complain of having its subjects returned to it memo., June 9, by a Foreign (government. 1^02. 195. On the other hand, the compulsory deportation of a foreigner to a country, other than his own, is regarded as a violation of International Comity, and as giving the country to which the Alien is deported a just cause of complaint. Moreover, there are Treaties between this country and most European countries, affecting the mutual rights of their respective subjects to enter into, and reside in the territories of the contracting Powers. 196. The following is the substance of the principal provisions of the Ll.Smith, 22,692. Italian Treaty of 1882, which may be taken as typical: "The subjects of each of the contracting parties who shall conform themselves to the laws of the country (1)" shall have full liberty, with their families, to enter, travel, or reside in any part of the Dominions and Possessions of the other contracting party; (2) they shall be permitted to have, or possess, the houses, manufac- tories, warehouses, shops and premises which may be necessary for them; (3) they may carry on their commerce either in person or by agents whom they may think fit to employ; (4) they shall not be subject, in respect of their persons or property, in respect of their passports, nor in respect of commerce, industry, to any taxes, whether general or local or to any imposts of any kind whatever, other or greater than those which can, or may be, imposed upon native subjects." 197. While, therefore, it is no breach of Treaty to expel alien law breakers, or persons becoming a public charge, or to take steps for their repatriation, a nation has just cause of complaint on principles recognised by International usage, if steps are taken by or on behalf of a Foreign Government to send across its frontiers objectionable persons either of the nationality of the expelling Government or of any foreign nationality, other than that of the State to which the person expelled is transmitted. 198. 'Complaints of action of this kind have from time to time arisen. For Ll. Smith,22,701, instance, complaints having been made of deportation of undesirable persons, Home Office not British subjects, from Belgium, an Agreement was arrived at in 1897, by ecor s" which Belgium undertook not to deport to this country any person " in a state of vagabondage" except British subjects. 67 persons have been deported from Belgium to this country under that Agreement. Similar complaints have, from time to time, been made of the action of the French Government, but assurances were given in 1872, and in 1888, which recognised the principle as above stated, and though a question as to some particular alien arises from time to time, in general there have been of late years few cases which have occasioned any very serious contention. 199. No evidence has been adduced before the Commission to lead to the inference that the obligations of International 'Comity are not recognised by Continental nations in this respect. English criminals convicted in France are liable, after serving their sentences, to be sent back to this country, but so far as the Metropolitan Police are aware it is not the practice for 'English criminals who have not been convicted—still less for nationals or foreigners—to be deported to this country by any Foreign Government. Of course, however, there may be, and no doubt are, cases where persons who have been expelled from a foreign country, and conducted to the frontier, find their way here of their own accord. But there is reason to believe that the bulk of foreign criminals who come over to this country do so voluntarily, and not under any compulsion from any Foreign Government.I 32 Law of the United States. Historical sketch 200. In the State of New Yor k, as long ago as 1847, an Act was passed of American law. by the State Legislature mainly with the view of preventing or r estricting the bvMaior Evans- entrance °f diseased or infirm Aliens. The condition of the emigrant vessels Gordon, 16,314. at that time was extremely bad, and there are records of a great number of deaths occurring from " ship fever." 201. The masters of these ships were required to furnish lists and particu- lars of the Immigrants imported, and a bond was required from the owner or consignee conditioned to indemnify the local authorities against the expense of supporting or relieving the Aliens brought into the State in their vessels. 202. In 1855 an Act was passed by the United States Legislature for the better regulation of Immigrant Ships, and the sanitary conditions of Immi- grants greatly improved. Immigration 203. By an Act of 1875 the immigration into the United States of women regulations, for -the purpose of prostitution, and of persons convicted of felonious crimes irmmL (not political) was prohibited. Washington^06' 204. An Act of 1882 imposed a duty of 50 cents on each Alien arriving by sea from a foreign port, and excluded convicts, idiots, lunatics and persons unable to take care of themselves without becoming a public charge. In 1885 came the enactment prohibiting the immigration of any Alien who had entered into a contract to perform labour or service of any kind in the United States. Certain exceptions were made to this general prohibition. Further legislation followed in 1887 and 1888; and in 1891 the Act was passed which remained in force until it was superseded in the present year by the law approved on March 3rd, 1903. 205. By the Act of 1891, to the classes of persons excluded under earlier laws were added: " All persons likely to become a public charge, persons suffering from a loathsome or dangerous contagious disease, persons who have been convicted of a felony or other infamous crime or misdemeanour involving moral turpitude, polygamists, and also (with certain exceptions) any person whose ticket is paid for with the money of another, or who is assisted by others to come." Penalties were imposed upon persons bringing into the United States by vessel or otherwise Aliens belonging to the prohibited classes, and the master or owner of the vessel bringing them was bound under a penalty to take them back to the port from which they came. All Aliens belonging to the prohibited classes, or who should become a public charge within a year after landing, were, within that period, made liable to deportation. An officer, called the Superintendent of Immigration, was appointed with a staff of clerks and inspection officers and assistants, whose duty it was to board all vessels carrying Immigrants, and there inspect all Aliens. " The inspection officers and their assistants shall have power to administer oaths, and to take and consider testimony concerning the right of such Aliens to enter the United States, all of which shall be entered on record." " All decisions made by the inspection officers and their assistants touching the right of any Alien to land when adverse to such right shall be final, unless appeal be taken to the Superintendent of Immigration, whose action shall be subject to review by the Secretary to the Treasury. The Secretary to the Treasury was empowered to make rules for inspection of Immigrants along the borders of Canada, British Columbia, and Mexico." 206. In 1893, provision was made requiring the master of any vessel bringing Immigrants to deliver to the proper officer lists containing detailed information as to all Alien Passengers, stating amongst other particulars, " whether able to read or write," " whether the Immigrant has paid his own passage," " whether in possession of money," and, if so, " whether upwards of 30 dollars and how much, if 30 dollars or less," " whether going to join a relation and, if so, his name and address," " whether ever in prison or almshouse, or supported by charity," " whether a polygamist," " whether under contract, express or implied, to perform labour," " the Immigrant's condition of health, mentally and physically, and whether deformed or crippled, and, if .so, from what cause."83 207. It was required that the lists should be verified by the oaths of the master and surgeon of the vessel, stating that they had examined all the passengers and believed the lists to be accurate. 208. In 1894, the poll tax was raised from 50 cents to one dollar, and by the Act of 1903, it has been raised to two dollars, and was extended to arrivals overland. 209. In 1895, the Superintendent of Immigration became the Commis- sioner-General of Immigration. 210. The Act of 1903 consolidates the existing law and still further Act of 1903, extends the classes of prohibited Aliens by the addition of "epileptics," " persons who have been insane within five years, or who have had two or more attacks of insanity," " professional beggars," " anarchists," and " con- tract labourers who have been deported within the previous year." Certain changes were made in procedure. If the officer whose duty it is to examine the Aliens on landing decides in favour of the admission of any Alien, any other Immigration Officer may challenge his decision and bring the Alien before a Board of Special Inquiry. " Any Alien who may not appear to the examining Immigrant Inspector to be clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to land shall be detained for examination in relation thereto by a Board of Special Inquiry." These Boards consist of three persons appointed by the Commissioners of Immigration at the various ports of arrival. It is their duty to decide whether any Alien who has been " held " as above stated shall be allowed to land or be deported; and both the Alien and any member of the Board dissenting from the decision have an appeal to the Secretary of the Treasury, whose decision is final. 211. The penalties upon shipowners, masters and others bringing any Alien into the United States not duly admitted by an Immigrant Inspector or not lawfully entitled to enter the United States, are largely increased. The offence is made a misdemeanour punishable by a fine not exceeding 1,000 dollars for every Alien " so landed or attempted to be landed," or by imprisonment for a term not less than three months or more than two years, or by both fine and imprisonment. 212. By Section 20 the period within which persons who become a public charge from causes existing prior to landing may be deported is extended to two years. 213. The principal grounds for exclusion by the machinery above described fall under three heads—contract labour, probability of becoming a public charge, and bodily or mental infirmity. In the report of His Majesty's representative it is stated that the " avowed object of the existing law is the protection of American labour." And there seems to be no doubt that, although as has been seen, the laws regulating emigration were in the first instance prompted by sanitary considerations, the more recent legislation is based mainly upon economic grounds. 214. Having summarized the law, it may be convenient here to deal with the evidence as to the working of the law so far as it appears relevant to this inquiry. We have been furnished with the reports of the Commis- sioner-General of Immigration for the years, ending respectively June 30th, 1900, 1901, and 1902, which afford some insight into the nature of the problem which has to be dealt with, and into the working of the law as it stood before the Act of 1903. See memo, by Mr. A. Raikes, Aug. 9, 1902, forwarded by Foreign Office. Major Evans- Gordon's evi- dence memo., p. 1226. 215. The following table, extracted from the above-mentioned Reports,, shows the total number of Aliens who arrived during the three years in 20638 f34 question at ports of the United States from the principal countries of Europe:— Principal Countries. 1900. 1901. 1902. Austria-Hungary ... ... 114,847 ... 113,390 ... 171,989 German Empire ... ... 18,507 ... 21,651 ... 28,304 Italy......... ... 100,135 ... 135,996 ... 178,375 Roumania ..................6,459 ... 7,155 ... 7,196 Russian Empire ... ••• 90,787 ... 85,257 ... 107,347 United Kingdom ... ... 48,237 ... 45,546 .. 46,036 Other European Countries omitted. ----- Total, Europe ... ... 424,700 ... 469,237 ... 619,068 Total A lien Immigration from ; : 1 all Countries ... ••• 448,572 ... 487,918 ... 648,743 These figures appear to relate only to " steerage " Aliens. In addition to these there were in 1901 and 1902 respectively 74,950 and 82,055 " cabin " Aliens. It appears that prior to 1902 it was considered that the laws Report of 1902, affecting the exclusion of Aliens did not apply to cabin passengers. In page 16. 1902 the " absurd distinction " was abolished, and the law was enforced in the case of cabin as well as steerage passengers. 216. From the tables which deal with the Immigration through the ports of the United States in reference to the race (not the nationality) of the Immigrants, the following figures are taken:— 217. Out of the totals given above, 448,572; 487,918 ; and 648,743, the numbers of the Immigrants whose entry was debarred {i.e., refused per- mission to land) and those who were returned within one year were— Year. Debarred. Returned. 1900 ..................4,246 ... 356 1901 ..................3,516 "... 363 1902 ..................4,974 ... 465 218. The largest number of those debarred fall under the head of "paupers, or likely to become public charges." These amounted to 2,974 in 1900; 2,798 in 1901; and 3,944 in 1902. Of these far the largest pro- portion are found amongst the " Southern Italians." Out of a total immi- gration of " Southern Italians " in 1900 of 84,346, 1,011 were debarred on LI. Smith, 278. this ground; the corresponding figures in 1901 were 115,704 and 1,292, and in 1902, 152,915 and 2,049. 219. In the same years the total numbers of Immigrant " Hebrews " were 60,764, 58,098 and 57,688. The numbers of " Hebrews " debarred on the above ground were, respectively, 444, 243, and 228. 220. The " Polish," as distinct from " Hebrew " Immigrants were in 1900, 46,938; in 1901, 43,617; in 1902, 69,620. The numbers of Poles debarred in .these years on account of actual or prospective pauperism were, respec- tively, 172, 98, and 162. 221. The numbers of those debarred on the ground of " loathsome, or dangerous, or contagious diseases" belonging to the three races above mentioned were, respectively :— 1900. 1901. 1902. Southern Italians 32 30 74 ' Hebrews ... 114 49 107 Poles ...... 33 50 140 222. So for as appears by the statistics, the figures showing the opera- tion of the American law in excluding " obnoxious persons " are mainly to be found in the columns dealing with the two grounds of exclusion above mentioned. The following figures, however, have some importance from another point of view. In the three years in question the numbers excluded of " contract labourers " were respectively, 833, 327, and 275. Great complaint is made of the inefficient administration of the laws as regards this class of Immigrants. It is stated in the Commissioner's Report of 1902, that35 the disuse of "the affidavit system" at the port of New York, a "most efficient aid in detecting attempted violations of the said laws, has resulted in their virtual abolition," as appears from the smallness of the figures of those rejected on this ground, when compared with the numbers of contract labourers who are believed to enter. 223. The numbers of " Idiots and Insane Persons " excluded were 33, 22, and 34; of " Convicts " 4, 7, and 9; of Prostitutes 7 (3 Cuban, 3 Japanese, and 1 Spanish); 3 (Chinese); and 3 (Japanese). 224. The Report of the Commissioner of Immigration for 1902 deals at some length with the immigration into the United States through Canada,- By an agreement with the Transportation Lines of Canada, inspection stations are established by the United States at Halifax, N.S.; Quebec; Point Levis; Vancouver; St. John, N.B.; and Victoria, B.C. Certificates granted by the United States Commissioners at any of these ports entitle the holder to admission into the United States territory without further examination. This process, however, only applies to immigrants who state that they are going to the United States. It is alleged that a considerable number of Aliens arrive in Canada who would be disqualified for entrance either at one of the ports, the subject of the agreement, or at the United States ports, but who ultimately find their way into the United States across the Canadian frontier, and that agents in Europe have been in the habit of encouraging persons of that class to endeavour to enter the United Report of States in this way. During 1902, stringent measures were taken to check Qg™e^\Sfornie902 this practice, and the result is stated to be that out of 4,900 immigrants p 43. examined on the Canadian frontier, 2,028 were found inadmissible. 225. The Act of March, 1903, has only been in operation for a short time, and we have no information as to its working. But the report of the Commissioner-General of Immigration for 1902 discloses some unsatis- factory features in the working of the law as it stood before the recent Act. It is stated that at New York a practice had arisen to appoint persons not Report of properly qualified to perform the important duty of inspecting immigrants; fo°T902 that the inspectors were in the habit of signing the cards, authorising 55. ' ' detention, in blank, and delivering them to mere interpreters or labourers, who thereupon inspected and detained immigrants at their pleasure. Opportunities were thus afforded to officials for exacting blackmail for passing immigrants possessed of means, and there was a failure to exclude " hundreds of immigrants reported by the medical officer be incapacitated from earning a living." Other evils are also mentioned, and the changes by which it was believed that these abuses would be rectified are detailed. It seems, therefore, that the condition of administrative action under the Ll. Smith,22,297- United States law is such that no sufficient discrimination has been exercised ^03. in that country between the desirable and the undesirable immigrant. 226. On the"other hand it cannot, we think, be doubted that the American laws have a considerable effect in making it the interest of shipping com- panies to exercise care as regards the immigrants whom, they bring over especially as to the bodily and mental condition of the immigrants. The Major Evans- investigations of Major Evans-Gordon at the port of Hamburg, and of our Gordon, 13,349. Secretary at Rotterdam, go to show that an efficient medical examination 1S> > takes place at these ports, and that a substantial number of intending emigrants are refused passages on the ground of unfitness. Colonial Legislation. 227. The legislation of the self-governing British Colonies presents certain characteristics differing both from the legislation of the United States and from that of the nations of the European Continent. We do not propose to deal with the class of legislation which relates to the exclusion of Asiatics and coloured persons. The ground of exclusion of those Aliens are not applicable to the circumstances of the United Kingdom. Dealing then with Immigration from Europe and America only, we have to observe that the restrictive legislation is not directed against Aliens as such. No distinction is drawn between British subjects and persons of other nationalities. The 20638 E 236 LI. Smith, 291. same restrictions and prohibitions apply equally to all Immigrants. Strictly speaking, therefore, there are no laws in the British Colonies restricting Alien Immigration. But there are laws regulating Immigra- tion, and the principal of these we proceed briefly to summarise. Canada, 228. Immigration into the Dominion of Canada is regulated by the Immi- gration Act 1886 (Revised Statutes, c. 65) and the amending Act of 1902 (2 Edward VII., c. 14). 229. The principal provisions of these Acts are as follows No vessel •bringing immigrants is admitted to entry unless she has been visited by an immigration agent. 230. If it is found, on the arrival of the vessel at the Canadian port, that proper measures for the preservation of the health of the passengers and crew during the voyage have not been observed, a duty of two dollars per head for every passenger or immigrant is imposed on the master of the vessel. The Governor in Council is also empowered by proclamation to impose a further duty payable by the master of any ship bringing passengers or immigrants, not exceeding two dollars, from every alien or passenger, independently of the duty above mentioned. 231. Every master of a vessel is required under penalties, before per- mitting any passenger to leave the vessel, to hand to the Collector of Customs at the port of landing a report, giving full particulars of all passengers, specifying in each case tne port of embarkation, the name, sex, and age of each passenger, the number of each family, the profession, occupation or calling of each passenger, the nation or country of birth, and the place in the Dominion of Canada or United States to which the passenger is bound. 232. The master is also required to report to the Collector of Customs at the port of arrival the names of all passengers who are lunatic, idiotic, deaf and dumb, blind or infirm, stating also whether they are accompanied by relations able to support them. 233. If the Medical Superintendent of the quarantine station, whose duty , it is to examine into the condition of the passengers, finds any person of the classes above-mentioned not belonging to an immigrant family, and such person is, in the opinion of the Medical Superintendent, likely to become permanently a public charge, he is to make a report of the facts to the Collector of Customs, who is to require the master to execute a bond with two sureties for three hundred dollars conditioned to indemnify the Govern- ment of Canada, the Provincial Government, and all local authorities from any expenses which may be incurred during three years for the mainten- ance of such passenger. The master is relieved from the obligation to give this bond if the Medical Superintendent certifies that the infirmity arose " from some cause not existing or discernible at the time of the departure of the ship from the port where such passenger embarked." 234. Arrangements may be made for the reconveyance of the person in question to the port from which he was brought, and the money payable under the bond may be applied to this purpose. 235. The Governor-General may, by proclamation, prohibit the landing of pauper or destitute Immigrants until the master of the vessel in which they arrived has paid to an "Immigration Agent" such sums of money as are necessary for their temporary support and transport to their place of destina- tion, and he may also prohibit the landing of any "criminal or other vicious class of Immigrants designated in such proclamation." The (Amending) Immigration Act of 1902 extends this power to any Immigrant or other passenger who is suffering from any loathsome, dangerous, or infectious disease or malady, whether such Immigrant intends to settle in Canada, or only intends to pass through Canada to settle in some other country. Such prohibition may be absolute, or may be accompanied by permission to land for medical treatment only for a period to be determined as provided by order or proclamation. 236. A proclamation under these provisions was issued by the Governor- General in September, 1902.37 237. The Act of 1902 also renders any Immigrant landing or remaining in breach of these provisions liable to be arrested without warrant and to be compelled to return to the vessel, and imposes on the owner or master of the vessel a penalty not exceeding 1,000' dollars and not less than 100 dollars for every Immigrant or passenger if he offends by violating any of the provisions of the Act, aids or abets an Immigrant or passenger in contravening any order or proclamation, or neglects to take back on board the vessel any such Immigrant or passenger. 238. All penalties imposed on the master become a special lien on the vessel and may be enforced by the seizure and sale of the vessel, her tackle, apparel and furniture (Act of 1886, Sect. 40). 239. The above-mentioned laws extend to the whole of the Dominion of Canada, and it does not appear necessary to mention the laws of the different provinces. 240. In the British Colonies throughout the Southern Hemisphere the Colonies in the principal Acts restricting immigration are those of Natal (1897), of the Southern Hemi- Cape of Good Hope (1902), of the Commonwealth of Australia (1901), and of New Zealand (1899). The earliest of these Acts is that of Natal, the provisions of which were adopted with some variations in the subsequent legislation of other Colonies. 241. The principal provision is contained in Section 3, which is as follows:— The immigration into Natal, by land or sea, of any of the classes defined in the following sub-sections, hereinafter called "prohibited Immigrant," is prohibited, namely:—- (a) Any person who, when asked to do so by an officer appointed under this Act, shall fail to himself write out and sign, in the characters of any language of Europe, an application to the Colonial Secretary in the form set out in Schedule B of this Act. 1 (b) Any person being a pauper, or likely to become a public charge. M Any idiot or insane person. (d) Any person suffering from a loathsome, or a dangerous contagious disease. ■(e) Any person who, not having received a free pardon, has, within two years, been convicted of a felony, or other infamous crime or mis- demeanour involving moral turpitude, and not being a mere political offence. (/) Any prostitute and any person living on the prostitution of others. 242. The education test provided by subsection (a) appears to be mainly li. Smith 298. designed to operate in restriction of Asiatic immigration. 243. The Act empowers the Governor to appoint and remove officers for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of the Act and to define their duties. It is made an offence for a prohibited Immigrant to enter or be found in Natal, and the Immigrant is liable on prosecution to be removed from the Colony, and to imprisonment, without hard labour, for a period not exceeding six months. The imprisonment, however, is to cease if the Alien finds two sureties in the sum of £50 each, that he will leave the Colony within one month. The restriction does not apply to the wife or minor child' >318- partment and of a court of summary jurisdiction. But it is done at the expense of much time, trouble and money. It would be much to be regretted if the institution of any State machinery should have the effect of superseding the effective action which at present produces the somewhat astonishing result spoken to by Mr. Brown, who was for ten years Chairman of the White- Brown, 'X 1/ V .. -I •< A-j Q chapel Board of 'Guardians, that " the Jewish Board of Guardians almost entirely relieves us of any burden with regard to the alien population." I do not, however, think that this result need follow if carefully considered legislation made compulsory repatriation possible in certain cases. Properly •organised and worked, the two systems might operate side by side, and even assist each other. Apart from the question of criminality, I submit that such evils as have been shown to exist, or may reasonably be apprehended, can and ought to be dealt with by less elaborate machinery than is suggested in the recom- mendations. As stated above, I think an improved system of inspection both of the ships and the aliens arriving at the ports is desirable. Foreign ships should, I suggest, be placed under regulation, so that the state of things which has been shown to exist in ships coming from Libau should be impossible. If inspection disclosed the presence on board of any persons whose bodily or mental state or hopeless pauperism rendered them unfit to be permitted to reside in this country, or if these conditions were found to exist within a period of one year after arrival, legislation should provide that proceedings might be taken before a Court of Summary Jurisdiction to •obtain an order for their repatriation. The sanction of a Secretary of State Should be required for these proceedings. To this extent I adopt the suggestions of Mr. Mead, one of the Magistrates of the Thames Police Mead "Court. A large discretion .should be left to the magistrate to consider all the 10,667 •circumstances of the case, for instance, whether the immigrant was coming to friends or relations who could support him. Mere want of means taken alone should not be a ground for repatriation. There should be provision for making the owner or master of the vessel, whether foreign or British, in which the immigrant arrived, a party to the proceedings, and the Court should have the Greenberg, 17,097. Par. 198. Williams, Dr. H., 6176.48 power of ordering him to pay the cost of repatriation on proof of knowledge or means of knowledge of the unfitness of the immigrant. Special pro- visions for giving effect to the order against a foreign shipowner would be necessary. This legislation would of course apply to all alien immigrants,, and not to any special class. Except so far as stated above, I am unable to agree with the fourth Recommendation. I am entirely in accord with paragraph (a) of the fifth Recommendation, but I regret that I cannot concur in the proposals made in 5 (b) and the following paragraphs. Those proposals are in effect that power should be given to a newly constituted authority to declare the whole or a portion of any area where the immigration of aliens has substantially contributed to overcrowding a " pro- hibited area," and that it should be an offence for any newly arrived alien- to take u,p his residence within the area to which the prohibition applied. It is also proposed that aliens on their arrival should be registered and parti- culars of their destination given which it is suggested would assist in carrying- out the measure proposed. Montagu, It is important to observe that although the views of some witnesses were invited upon some of the proposals above indicated, no opinion favour- able to them was elicited. Mr. Lithiby, the assistant secretary to the Local Government Board, in charge of the Public Health Department, pronounced the suggestion to be impracticable. The principal objections appear to be: — (1) That in practice it would be extremely difficult, if not im- possible, to prevent or detect persons coming into a congested area, although they might give their destination in the first instance elsewhere. (2) That this difficulty would be increased as actual vacancies occurred within the congested area itself. How would it be in practice possiDle to prevent actual vacancies being filled by new lodgers? And if the (prohibition is to be confined to newly arrived aliens there would be the greatest difficulty in proving whether the new comers belonged to the prohibited class or not.. (3) The expense of administering such a measure would be very heavy, a large staff of inspectors would be required, and it is very questionable whether even then the result aimed at would' really be secured. Are the inspectors to be the servants of the local authority, or of the Local Government Board, or of the new Immigration Board'? By whom is the expense to be- borne ? And how is this Department to be co-ordinated with the existing system of inspection? (4) What advantage after all would be gained over the thorough administration of the existing law ? It would be easier to prove overcrowding than to prove that the new lodgers were recently arrived alien immigrants. Even if a system of registration were established the identification of the lodgers with the registered aliens would in many cases be extremely difficult and evasion would be easy. In considering possible remedies it is important that the extent of the overcrowding, great though it is, should not be exaggerated. The result of the evidence seems to be that though overcrowding in the Borough of 'Stepney is probably extended over a larger area than in any other part of London, there are other districts in London in which an equal or greater degree of" overcrowding can be found. Canon Barnett, who has lived in the East-end for 30 years, considers that overcrowding has diminished during that time,, and that the standard by which it is judged is much higher than formerly; and Dr. Hamer, the Assistant Medical Officer of the London County Council, in the course of an inquiry made between the years 1894 and 1899 into the comparative amounts of overcrowding in different parts of London, found 16,985. Canon Barnett, 17,572. Lithiby, 23,471 23,482. Lithiby, 23,438. Canon Barnett; 37,529, 17560.' Brown, 11,067. Hamer, 17,971.49 that the number of instances of overcrowding for each 100 houses visited in 1894 in Mile End Old Town was two, in Whitechapel nine, while in St. Pancras in 1898 the number per 100 was 31, and in Kensington in 1899 14. The special element in the case of Stepney is the alien influx, and the question is whether any special measure of legislation is necessary in order to counteract or prevent its effect in increasing the difficulty. It seems to me that the difficulty can only be met in one of two ways— (1) By measures tending to diminish in a considerable degree the volume of alien immigration. The Recommendations make no proposal to this effect. The suggested exclusion of unde- sirables would not in all probability have any sensible effect upon the volume of immigration. The findings in the Report point to the conclusion that the number of aliens who would be excluded as undesirables if the proposals to that 4 effect were adopted would be comparatively few. It seems therefore that at present there is no proposal which would, if carried into effect, materially reduce the alien inflow. It may, however, be said that any measures which would be effective in reducing overcrowding, would also necessarily tend to diminish the amount of immigration. (2) The real question is what steps would be best adapted to diminish overcrowding in Stepney, and to prevent the recur- rence of similar conditions elsewhere. It is suggested that the remedy or mitigation of the evil is to be found in the enforcement of the ordinary sanitary law, with certain altera- tions and additions which experience has shown to be reouired. A careful comparison of the evidence of the witnesses examined before the Commission will show that there is a preponderating weight of testimony in favour of the view that an effective remedy for the evils of overcrowding in Stepney, as elsewhere in London, lies in this direction. Foremost amongst the effective provisions for the prevention of over- crowding are the bye-law-making powers conferred on local authorities by sect. 94 of the Public Health Act 1891 explained in paragraph 166 of the Report. Under this power bye-laws are or ought to be made providing for a standard of overcrowding in houses let in lodgings, for effective inspection, arid for the due responsibility of the tenant, the manager, and the owner of the house. The official witnesses were, I think, unanimous that for the full arid effective operation of bye-laws legislation is necessary to bring block or tenement dwellings under their operation, and Mr. Lithiby would include in certain defined congested areas all habitations whether let in lodgings or not. This suggestion appears to be well worthy of consideration by the Legislature. Dwellings not under bye-laws remain under the somewhat more cumbrous but still effective provisions of the Public Health Act as explained in the Report. Many witnesses of the highest authority emphatically expressed their view that these powers if consistently applied would in great measure meet the evil. Dr. Loane, who was medical officer for Whitechapel from 1883 to 1900 Loane 4584 said in answer to questions : " Supposing you had been able to register in ' Whitechapel all your tenement houses, and you had a sufficient staff of in- spectors to enforce inspection and registration, what would have been the result?—I think very few complaints could have been made against the district under those happy circumstances." " Do you mean that overcrowd- ing would be practically non existent I—Yes, practically you would have all the houses requiring constant supervision to be upon the register, and then, with a staff of inspectors to regularly inspect those houses you would 20638 O Lithiby, 2345& Loane, 4642,50 Loane, 4601. Murphy, 4065. Rygate, 59:55. Harner, 17968. Lithiby, 23440. 23441. 23485. Murphy, 4109. Mead, 10814. Corser, 12939. Silver, 2624. Foot, 6730. Thomas, 5708. Murphy, 4096. Harper, 13948. Thomas, 5678. Hope, 21436-42. have control of them." But Dr. Loane also stated that but little use had in fact been made of the powers, and that in seven years there had not been ten proceedings altogether. Dr. Shirley Murphy, the Medical Officer of Health of the London County Council, expresses the view that overcrowding in this part of London might be largely met and dealt with if the existing powers of making and enforcing bye-laws were properly carried out. The following extract from the evidence of Dr. Rygate, who was Medical Officer to the district of St. George's in the East and is a Poor Law Medical Officer, is to the same effect:— " Supposing sanitary laws were really effective and they were enforced, is there any reason why this overcrowding should not be dealt with as overcrowding has been dealt with in other parts of London ?—No reason, I think." " Of course there is the complication of the influx 1—Quite so." " Supposing they came to a place where sanitary laws were enforced, that might operate by itself to check it ?—Yes." " And especially if, in the surrounding districts the sanitary laws were enforced too 1—Quite so." Dr.Hamer,the Assistant Medical Officer of the London County Council, stated that in 1896 he was instructed to make inquiry as to the question of bye-laws in London generally; that he found that as regards overcrowding little had been done, no use, generally speaking, being made of the power of the authority to proceed straightway for penalty in the event of infringement of the law. The method of serving a notice to abate the nuisance was found to be practically ineffectual. In a few localities the authority had shown an intention to enforce the bye-law and overcrowding had temporarily ceased to exist. Mr. Lithiby when asked to suggest a remedy for the stale of things existing in Stepney said : " My suggestion is that the law at pre- sent in force with regard to overcrowding is not insufficient, at any rate we have no evidence that it is insufficient, to deal with the question of over- crowding in Stepney." He adds in reference to evidence which had been given by the Medical Officer of Stepney that 664 notices to abate nuisances had been given in Stepney in 1901, there being 31,462 inhabited houses in Stepney, that if such'overcrowding exists as had been stated, the only infer- ence he would draw was that a sufficient number of intimations were not served. Later he says, with reference to Stepney: " Judging from the reports we have received, and the statement as to the amount of proceedings which have been taken, it does seem to me that the existing law has not been thoroughly tried, and until that law is thoroughly tried it is difficult to say that fresh legislation is necessary to deal with tins problem." Quotations from the evidence to the above effect might be multiplied, but those given are enough to establish that there is at all events a great body of instructed opinion in favour of the view that the remedies under the existing law, if properly enforced, would be found sufficient to cope with the evil. On the other hand, the local witnesses from the con- gested district and some professional and official witnesses from the neigh- bourhood were strongly of opinion that neither the existing law nor any feasible amendment of it would avail to bring overcrowding within manage- able dimensions, so long as no restriction is placed on the constant influx of aliens. ' If, however, the view stated by several witnesses is correct that the enforcement of the sanitary law was much neglected by the vestry, and that although the Borough Council have shown greater activity during the short time that they have been in office, and have got their bye-laws extended, and have nominated two new inspectors, it would seem that there is still much to be done before the powers given by the Public Health Act of 1891 and the bye-laws made thereunder are fully enforced. If the evidence of the Medical Officer of Health for the Borough of Stepney is compared with that of Dr. Hope, the Medical Officer of Liverpool,51 .and of the. other witnesses above referred to it will be seen that Stepney is Lithiby, ■Still far behind other places in appreciation of the most effective weapon 23501-508. furnished by the Legislature. vf The answer so often given in the course of this inquiry to the suggestion Canon Bar- of enforcing the law, that it is impossible to turn the lodgers into the streets, nett> 17569. would equally apply to the enforcement of the law elsewhere, to the great displacements caused by public and private constructions, and to the opera- tion of similar legislation which has abated the evils of the terrible over- crowding in existence when the Legislature first took the matter in hand. The suggestion that on this ground the magistrates declined to enforce Mead, the law was strongly repudiated by the magistrates themselves. iMckinson It appears to me, therefore, that the true conclusions to be drawn from 14908-11. the evidence are :— (1) That in the East End of London the powers given by the Legislature have never yet been fully exercised. (2) That if they were exercised to an extent which is reasonably possible there is no reason why, notwithstanding the influx, overcrowding should not be brought under effective control. (3) That by a thorough and uniform administration of the existing law the object aimed at in the recommendation of preventing newly-arrived aliens adding to the overcrowding conditions of a district already full would be attained more effectively than by the method suggested of declaring certain areas to be pro- hibited. There would be the additional advantage that no novel or expensive machinery would be required beyond, what appears necessary, some addition to the number of inspectors. For the reasons above given I am unable to assent to the parts of the Recommendations numbered 4 and 5, to which I have referred. I also think that there are not sufficient reasons for the establishment of a separate Department,of Immigration as suggested in Recommendation 2. It is found in the Report that the main evil to be remedied is of a local character, and it might in my opinion be dealt with bythe existing Public Departments. I concur in the Recommendations 3, 4/, 5a, 6 and 7. (Signed) KENELM E. DIGBY.52 In signing the Report of the Commission, I desire to say that I entirely concur with the reservations so ably expressed by Sir Kenelm Digby, with regard to the proposed prohibition. I thinfi it right to add that in my opinion the proposal to proscribe any area, as overcrowded, involves much larger issues than does the mere fact that Alien Immigrants contribute to its overcrowding. Such a policy would have very far-reaching effects, one of, which would certainly be a discouragement to local authorities to solve,, by the erection of superior buildings, the all-important housing question. In the Report of the Commission stress is laid upon the inaccuracy of the census returns, more especially those relating to the East End of London. I would point out that, though the particular care which was given to their compilation at the recent Census would justify a reliance upon their accuracy, other sources of information in respect to the number of English and Alien Jews now resident in the administrative County of London, exist. Calculations derived on the one hand from the birth and death- rates, and on the other from statistics provided by the Board of Trade prove ineontestably that very many " not stated to be en route" proceed to America or elsewhere across the sea; while some undoubtedly settle within the provinces. They show that the native and Alien Jewish population in London does not exceed 110,000 souls. I am opposed to the adoption of restrictive measures, because even if they are directly aimed at the so-called " undesirables " they would certainly affect deserving and hard-working men, whose impecunious position on their arrival would be no criterion of their incapacity to attain to indepen- dence. The undoubted evil of overcrowding can, in my opinion, be remedied by less drastic measures. (Signed) ROTHSCHILD.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. VOL. II. frmniel) to bjr €ommanb of Jjig LONDON: PRINTED FOR HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. by wyman and sons, LIMITED, FETtER LANE, E.c. And to be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, lrom EYRE and SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding Street, Fleet Street, E.C., and 32, Abingdon Street, Westminster, S.W.; or OLIVER and BOYD, Edinburgh; or E. PONSONBY, 136, Grafton Street, Dublin. 1903, [Cd. 1742.][ ii ] CONTENTS.. Page Copy of Royal Warrant - - - - -- - . - , - - - - iii List of Witnesses, arranged alphabetically and in separate classifications - - v Minutes of Evidence ------- _ . _ _ jI "i ] WARRANT. EDWARD R JSbWSrb tbe Scvcutb, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas. King, Defender of the Faith, To Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Councillor Henry, Baron James of Hereford, Chancellor of our Duchy and County Palatine of Lancaster; (Chairman.) Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Nathaniel Mayer, Baron Rothschild; Our Trusty and Well-beloved Alfred Lyttelton, Esquire, (commonly * called the Honourable Alfred Lyttelton), one of Our Counsel learned in the Law; Our, Trusty and Well-beloved Sir Kenelm Edward Digby, Knight Commander of Our Most Honourable Order of the Bath, one of the Under Secretaries of State to Our Principal Secretary of State for the Home Department; Our Trusty and Well-beloved William Eden Evans-Gordon, Esquire, Major, on the Retired List of Our Army.; Our Trusty and Well-beloved Henry Norman, Esquire, and Our Trusty and Well-beloved William Vallance, Esquire, Clerk to the Guardians of Whitechapel, Greeting. milbcrc30 We have deemed it expedient that a Commission should forth- with issue to inquire into and report upon :— (1) The character and extent of the evils which are attributed to the unrestricted immigration of Aliens, especially in the Metropolis : (2) The measures which have been adopted for the restriction and control of Alien Immigration in Foreign Countries, and in British Colonies: and to advise what remedial or precautionary measures it is desirable to adopt in this country, having regard to the above matters and to the absence of any statutory power to exclude or expel any individual Alien or class of Aliens from its borders. IROW flttOW that We, reposing great trust and confidence in your know- ledge and ability, have authorised and appointed, and do by these presents authorise and appoint you, the said Henry, Baron James of Hereford; Nathaniel Mayer, Baron Rothschild ; Alfred Lyttelton; Sir Kenelm Edward Digby; William Eden Evans-Gordon; Henry Norman and William Vallance to be Our Commissioners for the purposes of the said inquiry. ant) for the better effecting the purposes of this Our Commission, We do by these presents give and grant unto you, or any three or more of you, full power to call before you such persons as you shall judge likely to afford you any information upon the subject of this Our Commission ; and also to call for, have access to and examine all such books, documents, registers and records as may afford you the fullest information on the subject, and to inquire of and concerning the premises by all other lawful ways and means whatsoever. Royal Commission on Alien Immigration. 6144. 1000 - -Wt. 10402.—10/03—Wv. & S.[ iv 3 Htlb we do by these presents authorise and empower you, or any three or more of you, to visit and personally inspect such places as you may deem it expedient so to inspect for the more effectual carrying out of the purposes aforesaid; and to employ such persons as you may think fit to assist you in conducting any inquiry which you may hold. Hnfc> we do by these presents will and ordain that this Our Commission shall continue in full force and virtue, and that you our said Commissioners, or any three or more of you, may from time to time proceed in the execution thereof, and of every matter and thing therein contained, although the same be not continued from time to time by adjournment. . Hnfc we do further ordain that you, or any three or more of you, have liberty to report your proceedings under this Our Commission from time to time if you shall judge it expedient so to do. Hnb our further will and pleasure is that you do, with as little delay as possible, report to us, under your hands and seals, or under the hapds and seals of any three or more of you, your opinion upon the matters herein sub- mitted for your consideration. Given at Our Court at Saint James's, the 21st day of March, 1902; in the .Second Year of Our Reign. (Signed) CHARLES T. RITCHIE, By His Majesty's Command.L v ] ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. IList of Witnesses, arranged according to certain classifications, and giving reference to the number of the first Question put to each. {N.B. —Witnesses, though they may be classified under particular headings, gave also, in very many instances, general evidence.) Classification. Name Capacity in which Witness appeared. No, of first Question. Census Authorities. 'Clergy* Connected with ^Education. |Oonnected •with the Jewish Board of Guardians and other Charitable institutions. Magisterial and Police. Manu- ( -facturers. McLeod. R. Lovell, A. H. - - - Myers, J. M. Vincent, J. - Barnett, The Rev. Canon Canney, The Rev. E. - Carter, The Rev. E. C. Dalton, The, Rev. A. E. - Davies, The Rev. W. H. - Eck, The Rev. H. V. - Headlamp The Rev. Stewart Walters, The Rev. C. Ensor - Bruce, G. L. Butcher, F.. H. - Headlam, The Rev. Stewart Mansfield, Oh. Mather, S.- Mathews, Wm. Ch. Nugent, W. A. - Rawden, J. W. P. Cohen, L* L. Ehrenburg, T. Fersht, B. A. Isaacs, T. A. Landau, H. Montagu, Sir Samuel, Bart. - Somper, Joseph - Bradford, Sir Wm. R. C. - Clayton, Major E. G. Corser, Haden - De Rutzen, Sir Albert Dickinson, John Gilmour, James Hayer, John Henry, E. R. - Hvder, Richard McConnell, W. R., K.C. Mead, Frederick - Mulvany, John - Newton, Sir Alfred White, Stephen Abrahams, B. Bairstow, J. O. - Booth, W. - Burlin, A. L. Cohen, M. - Kramrisch, J. Pearce, S. J. Pinto, J. Richards, A. E„ - Silverstone, Wm. Solomons, Z. Weber,. L. Wright, G. Registrar General Census enumerator ditto ditto ditto ditto W arden of Toynbee Hall - Rector of St. Peter's, Saffron Hill Vicar of St. Jude's, Whitechapel Rector of Stepney - Rector of Spitalfields..... Rector of Bethnal Green - - - Chairman of the Evening Continuation Schools Com- mittee: London School Board. West London Mission...... Member of School Board - Head Master of the Christian Street Board School, Stepney. See above. Head Teacher of the Settles Street Board School, Stepney. Divisional Superintendent of the Tower Hamlets Division of the London School Board. School Board Visitor in the Hackney Division - Head Master of the Betts Street Board School, Stepney Head Master of the Deal Street Board School, Stepney President of the Jewish Board of Guardians Connected with several Jewish Charities - President of certain Jewish organisation in West Central District of London. Clerk to the Manchester Jewish Board of Guardians - President of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter - President of the Federation of Synagogues, etc. Superintendent of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter - Late Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Secretary to the Prison Commission Magistrate of Worship Street Police Court Chief Magistrate at Bow Street Police Court Magistrate of Thames Police Court - Superintendent (B. Div.) of the Manchester City Police Inspector (C. Div.) Metropolitan Police Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police - Sub-Divisional Inspector. fl. Division Chairman of the County of London Sessions Magistrate of Thames Police Court - Chief Superintendent, H. Division - - - Commissioner of the Central Criminal Court Ex-Inspector of the Criminal Investigation Department Waterproof Manufacturer..... Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer .... Printer......... Manufacturing Chemist at Burton-on-Trent Mantle Manufacturer...... Manager of a Cigarette Factory at Glasgow Mineral Water Manufacturer..... Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer, Glasgow Manager to the West End Clothiers' Company - Shoe Manufacturer - - -, Manager of Shoe Factory..... Shoe Manufacturer Factory Manager to Chas. Baker and Co., Tailors 475. 777. 794. 698. 17505. 12654. 10230. 10137. 9700. 10013. 20213. 13073. 18325. 18793. 18386. 10275. i 10500. 18710. 18866. 15203. 19997. 20642. 20734. 16266, 16315, 17895. 16766. 19047. 23617. 23210. 12825. 23627. 14843. 21195. i 12971. 23547. 7299. 12700. 10547. i 8222, 10447. 7534. 18896. 15132. 9241. 20303, 20560. 18967. 21714. 8979. 20854. 20135. 1817. 2993. 4714, 19284. 19654.[ vi ] List of Witnesses arranged according to certain classification, and giving reference to the number of the first Question put to each—continued. „ Classification Name. Connected with the Mining Industry. Official. Workers in Sundry Trades in East End, Representa- tives of Trades Unions. Baird, R. - Gilmour, I). Lumsden, R. Ronaldson, J. M. Smillie, R. Barrett, C. Birch, F. H. Chalmers, Captain A. G. Clayton, Major L. G. - Evans, R. Foot, John Hamer, Wm. II., Dr. - Harper, Edgar - Hart, W. E. Hawkey, Thos. - High more, N. J. Hope, E. W., Dr. Hough, E. Leadam Jones, H. C. Lithiby, John Loane, Joseph, Dr. McLeod, R. Murphy, S, F., Dr. Newman, Geo., Dr. Niven, James, Dr. Ronaldson, J. M. Rygate, B. R., Dr. Smith, H. LI. - Svkes, J. F., Dr. Thomas, D. L., Dr. Vaughan, A. P. Ward, W. H. Williams, H., Dr. "A." - - Amstell, S. V. " B." a ^[i Cavalier, A. W. - Cohen, W. D.- Coleman, J. Coles, Wm. Cox, Wm. Jas. - Kreamer, J. A. - Lyons, J. - Onion, F. H. Pam, Jos. - Sealey,. D, " - . Sharpe, R. Shead, J. Simmons, Theo. Tuckwood, Thos. Turner, Fk. Tyler, A. - Amstell, S. Y. - Ball, Wm. - Bialofski, L. - - Blake, H. W. - Connellan, 0. Davis, Ben. Finn, J. Freedman, S. Gilmour, D. Levy,- S. - - . - Capacity in which Witness appeared. No. of first Question* Secretary to the Lanarkshire Coal Masters' Association Secretary tg the Lanarkshire Miners' Association Employed in a Lanarkshire Colliery - Mines Inspector ; West of Scotland .... President of the Scottish Miners' Federation Registrar of Births and Deaths in St. George-in-the- East. ' ; Relieving Officer, Holhorn Union - - - . Professional member of the Marine Department - Secretary to the Prison Commission - Assistant Inspector of Factories Chief Sanitary Inspector, Bethnal Green Assistant Medical Officer of Health, L.C.C. Statistical Officer, L.C.C. - Deputy Town Clerk of Sheffield - - Examining Officer of Customs - - - . Senior Assistant Solicitor of Inland Revenue Medical Officer of Health of Liverpool - . Senior Official Receiver in Bankruptcy - - - Town Clerk and Solicitor to the Borough of Holhorn - Assistant Secretary of the Local Government Board Late Medical Officer of Health (Whitechapel) - Registrar-General....... Medical Officer of Health of the Administrative County of London, Medical Officer of Health (Finsbnry) - Midical Officer of Health (Manchester) - Mines Inspector, West of Scotland - Public Vaccinator to the District of St. Georges-in-the- East. Deputy Comptroller-General of the Commercial, Labour, and Statistical Department, Board of Trade. Medical Officer of Health (St. Pancras) Medical Officer of Health (Stepney) - Factory Inspector in the North of London - Vaccination Officer (Bethnal Green) - Medical Officer of Health for the Port of London- Shoemaker - Boot clicker, etc. Boot finisher - Boot finisher - Milk seller - Boot laster - - Boot clicker - Sawyer - - - Plumber..... Pianoforte tuner Slipper maker - Boot clicker - Shoemaker - Employe at Beckton Gasworks Street vendor - Cabinet maker Employe at Beckton Gasworks - Employe at Beckton Gasworks Shoe maker - Basket maker - Delegate, London Metropolitan Branch of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives. , Chairman of the Hoxton Coster mongers' Union - Representative of National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives, Leeds Branch. President of the Costermongers' Association Secretary to the Leeds Trades and Labour Council , - Secretary to the Whitechapel and Spitalfields Coster- mongers' Union. Secretary to the Mantle Makers' Union Secretary to the Leeds Jewish Tailors' Machinists' and Presscrs' Trade Union. General Secretary to the Lanarkshire Miners' Associa- tion. Chairman, London Jewish Master Bakers' Society 21111. 23017. 14472. 22035. 22913. 2102, .. 14784. 22809. 23210. 11633, 11808. 6575. 17963. 10898, 11482, 13872. 21101. 820, 1311. 9857. 21395. 22706. 21976. 23410. 4480. 475. 3908, 4-722. 12428. 21739. 22035. 5834. 1, 22121, 22469, 22627. 13282. 5433, 7157. 13111. 18303. 6036, 6970. 3356. 12201, 12216. 3564, 3716. 3756. 9645. 20018. , 20072. 9592. 9449. 0675. 3237, 21571. 2485. ' 9284. 1784*. 7987. 9041. 9470. 1762. 8525. 8615. 13350. 7897. 15086. 7686. 14988. 19933. 20257. 20366. 23017. 20071, 21951?[ vii ] List of Witnesses, arranged according to certain classifications, and giving reference to the number of the first Question put to each—continued. Name. No of (Classification. Capacity in which Witness appeared. first Questioii. Lyons, L. - - - General Secretary to the United Garment Workers of 14061, 14110 Great Britain. 21704. Lyons, J. B. -... - President of the Whitechapel and Spitalfields Coster-' 19855. mongers' Union. j Marston, Wm. - Secretary to the Amalgamated Society of Tailors, Leedsj Branch* ; 14260. Murfin, Joe - - - Secretary to the Amalgamated Society of Tailors,| Sheffield Branch. j 14707. O'Grady, J. Secretary to the National Amalgamated Furnishing; ! 13962. Association. ' [Representa- 0'Grady, T. - Secretary to the Metropolitan Branch of the National 13514, 21701- tives of Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives. Trade Phillips, Moss - - Past President of the Whitechapel and Spitalfields 19980. Unions— Costermongers' Union. continued. Policoff, D. - Secretary to the Jewish Tailors' Machinists' and Pressed' Trade Union. 20999, 21704. Roth, J. Secretary to the East London Bakers' Union 21873. Solomons, Isidore Secretary to the Cap Makers' Trade Union - 20496. Smillie, K.- President of the Scottish Miners' Federation 22913. Thompson, E. H. Representative of the Alliance of Cabinet Makers' Asso- ciation in Leeds. 14643. Whatley, Thos. Wm. - Member of Executive of the London Clothiers' Cutters' 13658. Trade Association. Bradford, William Undertaker........ 9610. Brown, G. - Photographer........ 2377. Faber, John Milkman......... 8883. Tradesmen in East End. Francis, James - Haberdasher........ 8812, Gillmore, Jas. W. Undertaker..... 8756. Holditch, Robt. - Butcher......... 9366. James, Mrs. F. - Keeps a lamp and oil shop...... 9213. Say, Wm. - Umbrella Maker and Hawker..... 9545. Thomas, W. C. - Tobacconist........ 8651. Trott, Walter Fruiterer and Greengrocer...... 8997. \ Walker, Wm. Ex-Ironmonger and Tinman 8947. / Axelrad, J. Distressed English Jew - 8729. Ayres, Mrs. ' - Midwife .....- 9392. Ika Belcher, W. Manager to the Ch axeman Estate, a Borough Councillor of Stepney. 4117. Brown, James - Chairman of the Whitechapel Board of Guardians, etc. 10992, Bull, A. H. Mayor of Reading....... Editor of the " Shoe and Leather Record " - 20466. Burton, J. L. 13239. Calkin, W. L. - Agent of the Libau Shipping Company 23346. Chambers, Fk. Wm. - Manager of the Netherlands Steamship Company 23389 Coote, Wm. Alex. Secretary to the National Vigilance Association - 12568. Denniss, Capt. E. W. - A Gentile interested in Jewish Institutions - 18266. Dix, Geo. A. - Home and Insurance Agent in Stepney 5286. Eddis, F. E. Secretary to the Royal Commission on Alien Immi- gration. 21712. Emanuel, Ch. H. I.. - Secretary and. Solicitor to the Jewish Board of Deputies 16565, 16736. Garrett, G. H. East End Missionary....... 8489. Evans-Gordon, Major W. E., M.P. for Stepney, Member of the Royal Commission on 13343, 16313, Witnesses M. P. Alien Immigration. 20566. not , Gordon, H. Engineer : Member of the Borough Council (Stepney) 17594. specially Greenberg, L. J. - Publisher of the Jewish Year Book - 17089. ■^classified. Harris, John Alderman of the Borough of Whitechapel, etc. - 21594. Herzl, Th. Dr. - President of the Zionist Congress - 6244. Hodge, Harold - Member of the Mansion House Housing Council - Chairman of the British Brothers' League - 8026. Johnson, J. W. - 8553. Joseph, N. S. - Chairman of the Conjoint Committee of the United 15750, 15785, Council of the Russo-Jewish Committee and Jewish Board of Guardians, etc. 21577. Kilner, S. E. - Solicitor (appeared to complain why witness Gillmore received notice to quit). > ' 9206. Lang, Wm. President of the Ophthalmological Society of the United Kingdom. 20569. Levy, Mrs. - District Visitor in Manchester and East End of London 17897. Lewis, Harry S.- Joint- Author of the "Jew in London." A Borough 17224, 17267, Councillor of Stepney. Martin, J. W. - Ex-Mayor of Reading....... 19793. Moens, W. J. C. - Ex-President of the Huguenot Society of London 23062. Parkes, R, - Ex-Deputy-Chairman of the British Brothers League 8710. \ Prag, Jos. - Councillor of the Borough of St. Pancras - 17809,17896*[ viii ] List of Witnesses arranged according to certain classification, and giving reference to the number of the first Question put tp each—continued. Classification. Name. Capacity in which Witness appeared . No. of first Question. . ' / Witnesses not specially classified— continued. \ Rose, Wm, A. - Silver, J. L. - Solomon, L. Tyrrell, F. A. 0. - - Vincent, Gol. Sir Howard - Walmen, A. f Walter, P.- White, Arnold - Wigram, M. Williams, A. T. - Williams, T. E. - Member of the Board of Guardians of Whitechapel - Alderman of the Borough Council of Stepney Architect to the Federation of Synagogues - Surgical Officer to the Royal London Ophthalmic Hospital. M.P. for one of the Divisions of Sheffield - A resident in Stepney - A resident in Stepney...... Author: Interested in the question of Alien Immi- gration. President of the Sheffield.Hebrew Congregation - Member of the Housing Committee of the London County Council. Ex-member of the Rateliffe Vestry, etc. - 9069. 2603. 18137. 3666. 22398. 5156. 11438. 329, 899. 20075. 1570, 2892. 18443.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before the ROYAL COMMISSION on ALIEN IMMIGRATION. FIRST DAY. Thursday, 24th April, 1902. present : The-Eight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, called; and Examined. 1. (Chaitman.) Will you state what position you occupy at the Board of Trade?—-I am Deputy Comp- troller ^General of the Commercial, Labour and Statis- tical Department of the Board of Trade. 2. Has the matter of immigration and emigration come under your cognisance in that position?—Solely as regards the tabulation of statistics. The connection of the Board of Trade with the subject of immigration may broadly be said to be the record of the statistics of immigration and emigration. : 1 3. That is within your department f—That is within our department. 4. How long personally have you had this matter under your cognisance? , How long have you been in that position?—-1 have been in the position I now occupy since 1897. I was an officer in the Department before that, and so had some knowledge of the subject. ' 5. We will* go at once to the law that is in force con- trolling to a certain extent this immigration, and by virtue of which you obtaiii certain information. There ^ are two classes, I think, of statutes, one that affects more the criminal immigration, and the other that comes under the Merchant Shipping Acts 1—There is the Alien Act which, as at present administered, refers primarily to immigrants from Europe, including under that term the Mediterranean. 6. I believe the Adts which culminated in the Act of William IY. were directed against criminal immigrants' more than any other class Criminal and hostile per sons-^undesirable persons. 7. The original Alien Act was 1793 ?—That is so— 33 of George III. ... " ' 8; Then, there were other amending Acts in 1814, 1315/1816, 1826, and 1836?—That is so. . There were .a number of amending Acts of more or less importance. The Act of 1836 is, the 6tlh of William IY,-, and - tiat is the Act whidh is now in force in this branch of the..legislation %—Thatris'so.— , • - 10. We will get it on the note through your evidence, hut I will just state the effect of ^hat-Act. In tliesecond section t of that Act I believe -it is enac.ted -that " The < v6144: * ... ......a .. 'i ^ r ' " master of every vessel which after the commencement of this Act shall arrive in this realm from foreign parts ^r' shall immediately on his arrival declare in writing to Smith. the chief officer of the customs at the port of arrival 24 Apr. 1902. whether there is, to the best of his knowledge, any alien - on board his vessel, and whether any alien hath, to his knowledge, landed therefrom at any place within this realm, and shall in his said declaration specify the number of aliens {if any) on board his vessel, or who have, to his knowledge, landed therefrom, and their names, rank:, occupation, and description, as far as he shall be informed thereof; and if the master of any such vessel slhall refuse or neglect to make such declaration, or slhall wilfully make a false declaration, he shall for every such offence forfeit the sum of twenty pounds, and the further sum of ten pounds for each alien who shall have been on board at the time of the arrival of suoh vessel, or who shall have, to his knowledge, landed therefrom within this realm, whom such master .shall wilfully have refused or neglected to declare ; and in case such master .shall neglect or refuse to pay forthwith such penalty, it shall be lawful for any officer of the customs, and he is hereby re- quired, to detain .such vessel until the same .shall be paid ; Provided always that nothing herein contained shall extend to any mariner actually employed in the navigation of such vessel during the time that such mariner shall remain so actually employed." By the third section: " Every .alien who shall after the com- mencement of this Act arrive in any part of the United Kingdom from foreign parts shall immediately after such arrival present and show to the chief officer of the customs at the port of debarkation for his inspection any passport which may be in his or he* possession and declare in writing to such chief officer, or verbally make to him a declaration, to be by him reduced into writing, of the day and place of his or her landing, and of his or her name, and shall also declare to what country he or she belongs, and is .subject, and the country or place from which he or she shall then have come ; which de- claration shall be made in or reduced into such form as shall be approved by one of His' Majesty's principal Secretaries ©f State." Then; Section 4: The -officer of customs to whom such passport shall be shown; and.2 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGATION * Mr. H. LI. declaration made, shall immediately register such de- Smith. claration in a Tbook to be kept by him for that purpose ■ --- (in which book certificates shall be printed in blank and Pr* counterparts thereof in such form as shall be approved by one of His Majesty's principal Secretaries of State)." Then there are penalties for forging certificates, and there are certain exceptions, not to affect Foreign Ministers and their servants, or aliens who have been resident three years. Now that Act is still in force ?— Yes. 11. What information do you receive under that Act? —We receive the lists of aliens rendered to the Customs under Section 2 of that Act. Section 3, relating to passports, and so forth, is not at present enforced. 12. It has become obsolete ?—Yes. 13. Number 2 you receive from the Customs direct to you?—No,, the Customs forward them direct to the Home Office—" one of His Majesty's principal Secre- taries of State" are the words of the Act—and they send them on to us. 14. You are really and truly the place of destination of these certificates as Board of Trade ?—That is so. 15. How far do you think those reports completely represent the immigration of aliens ?—In the first place I should say these alien lists are only required at 29 ports, being those ports to which aliens come in any ilumbers. I will hand in a list of those port®, and with regard to some of them—Dover, Harwich, Newhaven, and Southampton—the lists only show deck passengers and persons who, after landing, proceed by train as third-class passengers. The object of that exemption is in order not to interfere unduly with cross Channel traffic. 16. Persons coming from Paris to London would not be returned?—No, unless they were deck passengers or held third-class tickets. Subject to that exception, that we do not get them for all ports absolutely, and at these five ports there are certain exemptions, I should say they fairly cover the number of aliens. 17. I do not think you read Folkestone. How many ports are there?—Twenty-nine: 18. They represent really all the principal ports of the United Kingdom ?—Yes, to which .aliens come from Europe. 19. The excepted ports are Dover, Folkestone, Har- wich, Newhaven and Southampton ?—Yes. 20. Passenger ports we may call them?—Yes. 21. In your opinion are there any other ports that it would be advantageous to bring into this 29 list?—No, we have not thought so. Two of the 29, Cardiff and Newport, have only been added within the last two years, because previously our information was that there was no sufficient number of aliens. Directly we get information that there is an appreciable number of aliens coming in to any port not in our list, we add it. 22. You meet the necessities of the times ?—Yes. 23. Will you distinguish, if you please, the nature of the matter that attracts attention. If an emigrant is going on he is what is called a trans-migrant ?—Yes. 24. Are they returned to you or riot ?—There is a dis- tinction in the published statistics between alienst described in the alien list to be en route for other coun- tries and aliens not so described. I should like, if the Commission will allow me, to give the exact origin of that distinction, because it is an important one. 25. Yes, it is ?—When the enforcement of the Alien Act was revived in 1890 in consequence of the report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on Im- migration and Emigration in 1889- 26. This Act of William IY. had fallen somewhat into disuse ?—Yes. 27. Until the Committee of 1889 reported ?—Yes. 28. And then in 1890 the operation of it wias revived ?—• Yes. Some of the shipping companies, whose business it was to carry large numbers of transmigrants to the Humber and north-eastern ports, made representations to the Customs that it was a very great hardship on them to have to ascertain all the details that were re- quired for the alien lists with regard to the large numbers of persons holding through tickets who were simply passing through the country to emigrate to America. 29. Bremen to Southampton, en route for New York, for instance?—Possibly that might be so, but the cases to which I refer arose with regard to ships trading to Hull and Hartlepool. The owners asked whether it would not be sufficient in those cases if. they returned a total number instead of names and occupations and nationalities. 30. Are those they referred to persons booked en route ?—Yes. I have the correspondence, if you care to go> into it. 31. No?—Anyhow, the upshot was that the Board of Trade agreed, under the conditions stated, that they would be content with a total number of such persons. The result was that the alien lists rendered under this Act with regard to the ports where a large number of through passengers come, have since that time con- tained two sections—a list of names, with other particulars, of persons not holding through tickets or not stated to hold through tickets, and a* total number of those returned as holding through tickets. So we had no choice. We were bound to carry that distinction into our statistics; we could not give the same particulars about the trans- migrants holding through tickets that we could give with, regard to those not so holding. That is the origin of the distinction. It has no statutory basis. The Alien Act does not prescribe any statement of destination ; consequently there is no power to compel the master of any vessel to ascertain from the aliens that he carries whether or not they are going through ; but he escapes a certain amount of clerical work and trouble by so ascer- taining, and therefore with regard to those ports, espe- cially on the north-east coast of this country, where a large proportion of the immigrants hold through tickets, that distinction has been made, and it also follows that, with regard to the southern ports, where the proportion is comparatively small, and where it has not been worth while for the captains to make the distinction, it has not been made. I want to make it quite clear that the figure- as to persons cn route is a minimum figure for that reason. 32. You receive in two returns persons who have a through ticket or are booked through, and all the rest of the people appear as persons who are going to remain m this country ; they are simply immigrants—persons entering ?—They are persons not holding through tickets. They may or may not be persons going to stay. 33. The result would be they would appear as persons who were going to stay prima facie ?—Yes. May I hand in a specimen of a Grimsby return ? 34. Out of the persons who do not hold through tickets or do not book beyond en route, do many people continue their voyage after having arrived at our Eng- ports ,—We have knowledge that a considerable number do so continue, but I could not say how many. We have taken means to obtain information so far as possible with regard to London, of which I can only say that the result is to show that a good many go through but without showing the whole number. 0 ' 35. Please explain that. That many go throuca without bemg booked through, do you mean 1—WithoV being described on the alien list as booked through. 36. Out of the persons who prima facie appear to bo coming to this country, are there a certain number yon must deduct from those who do not remain, but who go on. jl es. 37. Will you give us your assistance by giving us such approximate view as you cam of what sort of number W ™ Probably have to be deducted, say, from London ? —Would you allow me to postpone that until we have gone into the statistics ? It is so difficult to give a figure without. I can give you the number we have ascertained to go through. 38. When you use the term "go through," do vou wf^ ^?°k-pd KhlTg^'"i°V' f° thrOT1gh without being booked ?—Probably booked through. 39. That is not what I was upon, because they do not come into our alien immigration. They go through, and have nothing to do with us?—They go through, irnt they are not in the alien lists as going through. *' w 40. They are latently booked through as regards your list ?—Yes, because the masters of the vessels are urHf*r no obligation to furnish us with a return as to whether they are booked through or not. In London they do not do so, as a matter of fact. 41. This matter is very important, and we will back to it later. Now, the Commission would like to see this as a sort of return that is sent in—a list ofMINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 3 aliens. It is from the master of t,he steamship u Staveley," in compliance with, the provisions of the Act of Parliament of William IV.—that is, the Act we have been reading. It purports to he " a true and full account of all aliens who are now on board my said ship or vessel, or have landed therefrom in this realm, with their names, rank, occupation, sex, and description " ; then here come christian and surnames, then in French and in German the same words—christian and sur- names—'" Pieter Lieber, Jan van Doerp, Curt Krause." The first is a fisherman, the second is an illegible word, and the third In Londo'n and a few other large ports, but most completely in London a special officer of Customs is instructed to board all vessels .suspected of bringing a considerable number of aliens to London, and count, and not only count, but furnish a detailed report to the Board of Trade, with names and occupations,and, so far as he is able to ascer- tain, destinations. 'It is through the report that he furnishes to us of destinations that I say we have been able to ascertain that a certain number go on. That brings me to the point you asked me about just now. If this report from the Officer of Customs specifies a name of a man who he believes from inquiry to be en route—■ mostly with a through ticket, but not exclu- sively so—then a search is made at the Board of Trade in the outgoing passenger lists. I have not yet explained what the passenger lists are, but they are under the Merchant Shipping Act, and generally they are lists of persons- who go to places out of Europe. If within the next few days we find the same name, we record it that that man went through, although not so stated in the alien lists. In recent years we have not taken the evidence of the Officer of Customs unless it is confirmed by the same name appearing within a short period in fcae outgoing passenger lists. 6144. 48. How do you get the outgoing passengers' lists?— j^r jj jj They come under the Merchant Shipping Act, Smith. 49. If you take one of those before you, and find a a^7~L902 report from your Custom House officer that one had ~ _ arrived here at London, and then from London Port or from Liverpool or (Southampton, within what period shall I say—a week or ten days ?—Speaking generally within about a week, but in some exceptional cases names have been traced as much as three or four weeks after. 50. If you find any entry of the same name going out- wards, you assume that that person is the same ?—We do. 51. Of course, it is strong proof that it is so, because unless you had two persons of the same name coming in, it most likely would be the same person going out ?— Yes. We think it a good enough presumption, when the officer of Customs reports that he is going through, and we find a man of the same name did go through to the same destination.. 52. Do you make any special inquiry from time to time also?-—Yesj from time to time an officer of Customs is sent round to the outports to stay for a period of a week or so at each port, and board the vessels and make the same kind \of detailed inquiry there tlhat he makes regularly in London. The last of such inquiries was made in the year 1900. It is rather long to put in, but perhaps I might first read the last paragraph in the •report: "I have found the alien lists at each place generally correct both as to total number of aliens and as to trans-migrants." That is the conclusion. The details are given in case any member of the Commission would like to see them. 53. I think now it would be convenient if you were just to state what course is pursued under the Merchant Shipping Act as distinguished from what we call the Alien Act of William IV. ?—-In .1873 the Board took over from the Emigration Commissioners the administration of what were then known as the Passenger Acts, which have now become Part 3 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and under that Act the masters of any ships carry- ing steerage passengers to places out of Europe are bound to make returns of certain particulars to the Board of Trade. 54. Carrying out of Europe or from places out of Europe, do you mean P—Carrying from the United King- dom to places out of Europe. 55. That is emigration?—Yes, and with one exception the same applies to immigration. The one exception is that there is no compulsion to make a return for saloon passengers, but the shipping companies do that in practice. 56. What returns are made in relation to immigration ? The Merchant Shipping Act you are referring to is the Act of 1894 ?—-Yes, Section 336 of that Act says : " The master of every ship bringing steerage passengers to the British Islands from any port out of Europe, and not within the Mediterranean Sea, shall, within twenty-four hours after arrival, deliver to the emigration officer at the port of arrival a correct list, signed by the master, and specifying the name, age, and calling of every steer- age passenger embarked, and the port_at which he em- barked "—that is the point. It is confined to the steer- age passenger, but, as a matter of fact, it makes no difference, because we do get the returns of cabin passengers. 57. What are the places of origin again ?—'Any port out of Europe and not within the Mediterranean Sea. 58. What class of people come there ? Are they Las- car sailors, or what, because that does not affect Russia or Germany or any of the European countries ?—They are people of all classes-—mostly from America or Canda. 59. We have not many immigrants coming to us from America and Canada, at least not of (the class we are dealing with ?—'No, the greater, number, of them are not probably immigrants for settlement at all. I have not quite finished reading the section, and perhaps I may finish it. "And specifying the name, age, and calling of every steerage passenger embarked, and the port at which he embarked, and showing also any birth which has occurred amongst the (steerage passenger^, and if any steerage passenger has died, his name, and the sup- posed cause of his death." 60. I do not know that that is very material. What A 24 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mn ill LI. «°rt of returns do you obtain under that Act of 1894 ?-— Smith. I think they are very complete returns so far as regards the numbers, but I 'think there is a good deal of incor- r. 1902. reetness iii detail as regards the nationalities, occupa- tions and matters of that kind. 61. You are aware of the class ofiminAgrants that this Commission has principally to deal Vith. Do you think you get in these vessels, and therefore coming within those returns, many of the class of immigrants we are dealing with ?—In order (to be table to answer that I had an inquiry miade with regard to the year 1900 to show how many were cabin and how many were steerage.. I thought perhaps that would throw some light on that, and. this .shows of 175,000 odd persons returned as' coming ito the United Kingdom from ports out of Europe, 68,700 were cabin passengers, and 104,000 steerage passengers, the small balance being niot stated. 62. What class of people were the steerage passen- gers; do you think they come here to work and to1 settle here?—Of course the great majority of these steerage passengers are British subjects; as regard the aliens I should think the majority of them are birds of passage, but I should like to take a note of that ques- tion, and see if we can give you further information about that. 63. You have produced in the Board of Trade, I be- lieve, yearly, a statistical table of emigration and immi- gration from and to the United Kingdom?—That is so. 64. I think the last one was one , dated 16th May, 1901 ?—That i's the last published report. 66. I should like a copy of that" report to be handed in. I think the useful table is on page 54?—-I Have bad a number of small tables prepared, bringing up vo 1901 the more important of these figures, and I have copies to hand in. 66. It is page 54 of the report of the year 1900. " Com- parative statement showing the nationality of the aliens ^exclusive of seamen) who arrived in the United King- dom from Continental ports, and who were not stated in the alien lists obtained under Act 6 William IV., •chapter xi. to be en route to America or other places out of the United Kingdom in the years 1896 to> 1900." Then we have got particular's which we need not at the present moment deal with, and then come your, tables which include th^ years from 1896 to 1900.- I will take the totals first without going to nationalities •of ail ports. Would those be your 29 ports?—Yes, thoise would be the 29 for the last two years, but there "were only 27 bef ore that. 67. Cardiff and another one were added?—-Yes. 68. In the year 1896 there were 35,000, in the year 1897 there were 38,000, ial the year 1898 there were 40,000, in the year 1899 there were 50,000, and'in the year 1900 there were 62,000 ?—Yes, and I can add the number for the year 1901 now for you. It was 55,000. 69. As against 62,000 Yes. 70. You see there is a progressive increase from 1896 to 1900. Do you know any cause for the falling off from 62,000 to 55,000 in 1901 ?—Nb, but I think this immigration follows the course of trade, and there was & slackening of the labour market in 1901.. It always produces aai effect. 71. That is a very important answer. That is, so far as you know the cause ?—I think it is partly that, .and partly because there has been an increase in the number going through to America. Trade has been ex- tremely active in America, and has kept up rather better than it has here. The number described as MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 5 [passing.on-'-to page 56 the other large ports, Hull, and :«o on are given in the same way ?—That is so. 99. Now as to nationality ?—If you turn to page 46 • of the return you will find you have for each port of arrival and each port of departure the nationality. 100. Where the vessel starts from we call the port of origin ?—Yes. 101. Take the instance at page 46. Take Hamburg, which is the largest. Russians and Poles for London -3,600 men, 1,200 women, and nearly 700 children?— . Yes, I can give the figures for 1901 if you like. Russians and Poles 2,400 in round figures, 940 women, 660 ^children. That is a decline, and a considerable decline. 102. Then Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes 35 men and 2 women. That is small?—Yes. Then French 4 :men and 1 woman; Austrian^ and Hungarians 641 men, ..and 175 women, and 83 children. Then Italians 25 men .£ind 9 Swiss men, and of other nationalities, not dis- tinguished, 195 men, 102 women, 55 children, the total "being 4,000 men, 1,400 women, 850 children. Of course the figures I have given will not exactly add up, because 'I have given them in round figures. 103. You have not given us Germans in that list?— 'The Germans were 723 men, 200 women, and 47 children. 104. That is the only national increase ?—Yes, it is ..a, 'slight increase. It is 723 men as against 614 in the year before. That is, of course, only from the one port of Hamburg. 105. From one port to one port?—That is so. 106. Perhaps it may be useful if you will give us 1901 for all ports we have here—the totals ?—The totals of --all nationalities and from, all ports of origin ? 107. I think probably we had -better have the details -of Russians and Poles. How many Russians and Poles came to Grimsby in 1901 ?—1905 men, 936 women, 484 children, total 3,325. That is a falling off of nearly :2,000 as compared with. 1900. 108. Will you be good enough to hand in for all these sports your detail of the 1901 figure ?—Yes. 109. Do you know anything of the trades these people devote themselves to? Would that come within your ^knowledge, or is that census work?—We know nothing . about that. You will see in the alien lists that they are required to state occupation, but if that means anything . at all, it means the occupation they pursued before they -came, to England, which is a very different thing to the -occupation they are going to pursue. We have no means of checking that, and we have not considered it wise to tabulate it for that reason.. We know nothing about it except through the census. 110. I suppose it is known that probably some nationalities devote themselves to trade more than .-others; for instance, Germans devote themselves a good deal to the baking trade, and the Russians to tailoring, but that is only general knowledge?—No, we get it from the census returns. The census returns for Lon- don are published, and I could give them to the Com- - mission, but it is not our department. HI. I think you reserved what you were going to say -as regards the views you entertain about the nujnber of people who do not appear to be booked en route, but - still do not remain in this country, so as to make a deduction from the lists of the persons returned. Can jyou assist us in that direction?—I cannot assist the Commission at all in saying liow many of those who e the same alien® who come in. We cannot trace them through, at least not completely. 112. As regards proof, there is a break ?—Yes. 113. Give us the best idea you can ?—I have explained that under the Merchant Shipping Act we know how jnany foreigners leave this country for places out of Europe, and, how many come in from places out of Europe. That, gives us a balance of the excess of 'foreigners who go outwards, and for the last year, 1901, that balance was ajbout 64,000 ; 64,000 more foreigners went from the United Kingdom to America and other .....places out of Europe than came from America to this country. That is the first figure we have. With regard ;-to the traffic between this country and the Continent, I have explained that this Act does not apply. 114. Will you give me the American figures again?— It is the balance of 124,000 who went from the United Kingdom to places out of Europe, and 61,000 that came ]$n j£ from places out of Europe to the United Kingdom. Smith. 115. That is going out to America. A good many 24 Aoril 1902 of those may be Irish emigrants, or persons seeking ^ _ trade employment ?—I am speaking solely of foreigners. As regards the total movement of foreigners between the United Kingdom and places out of Europe, there is an excess outwards of that figure. Of course, that is only one step towards the estimate. 116. It is a long way off at present ?—Yes, a very long way off. The next point is as regards the traffic be- • tween the United Kingdom and the Continent. The steamship and railway companies who. carry such passen- gers have since 1800 made voluntary returns, not under any Statute, but voluntary returns to the -Board of Trade showing the total number of persons, British and foreign together, carried' in both directions, inward and out- ward. These returns show us that as regards1 tihe move- ment of passengers, both British and foreign, between the United Kingdom and Europe, there is an excess inwards, which' in 1901 amounted to 89,000; 89,000 more passengers came from Europe into this country than went from this country to Europe, but that total does not in any way dis- tinguish between whether they were foreign or English. In order to make what at the best must be an extremely rough estimate of what you require, we are bound to make an assumption, and the assumption that we have made is this—that the British passengers between this country and the Continent balance—as many go out as come in. I could give reasons to the Commission for thinking that is not far off the truth. 117. For love of home you think they return back?— Yes, but you will see at once if it is true then this total excess I have just given is the balance inwards of foreigners. It is, of course, to some extent an assump- tion. 118. We are getting very much away from the alien immigration. We have no knowledge that these are the persons we are dealing with?—No-, we have no knowledge of that, but these points- have a bearing on the total growth of the foreign population. 119. See if you can help us at all about the persons you think may go on although not booked on?—You mean of those who come in ? 120. Yes?—I cannot do it exhaustively. 121. The point we are on is this. The return has treated all persons as immigrants into this country if they are not returned by the master of the vessels under the Act of William IV. as being booked on ; and then it is known there are a class of people who, although not booked on, will transfer themselves from one boat to another, or from one port to another, and go on. That is to say, they are migratory still, and in a, state of voyage. We want to know whether there is any pos-, sibility of arriving at an estimate of that class which undoubtedly exists ?—We cannot help you. We do not know. We only know that a large number do< in various ways pass on or go back. We know there is a large number, for example, from returns which the Commis- sioners will doubtless get from unofficial witnesses, with regard to the number who are actually emigrated or assisted to return by charitable agencies. 122. You gave us something as proof, but what you very properly say is not strict proof, that is to say, you gave us the fact of finding the same name within three weeks' time?—I can give you the numbers actually traced in that way in 1901. They were 3,810. 123. 3810 who were supposed to be persons travelling en route, because 3,810 were found arriving with foreign names, returned under the Act of William IV., and within three weeks persons of the same names were found going away from this country ?—I might supple- ment that by saying we do not attempt to trace the correspondence of names until the officer of Customs hap stated that he has reason to believe them to be * going on. We never attempt to compare (the alien list as a whole with the passenger outward list as. a whole. We should probably find a great many more correspon- dences if we did. 124. I suppose you do not wish your evidence to bo put higher than this, that no doubt a certain numbtf* •»' immigrants arrive here who prima facie are regarded remaining in this country, but . who are really persoim passing on en route to other countries 1—There is no doubt there is a considerable number of those, and there6 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: :Mr. H. LI. Smith. 24. Apr. 1902. is no doubt a very large number of others who are going back to countries in Europe. 125. (Mr. Norman.) Would the converse be true that a large number who are supposed to be going on stay- here?—No, I should not think so. 126. (Chairman.) No, they are booked through. The persons who are supposed to go on have taken a ticket through ?—Yes. 127. And unless they are going to forfeit that ticket they go through?—Yes. 128. (Lord BothscMld.) Besides, those you know are going through you believe a large number of those who have, not taken a ticket through have gone on ?—-Yes, we know a certain number do, and we believe .our figure is under the mark. 129. (Chairman.) 3810 have been traced by identity of name ?—Yes. 130. Then you give certain numbers of those who stay under this heading : — " Statement of the number of aliens ascertained to have been en route to places out of the United Kingdom, in each of the undermentioned years, in addition to those so described in the Alien Lists : — Years. Number. 1891-1892—No information. 1893 ..... 420 1894 ..........2,166 . 1895 ..........2,074 1896 ..........2,961 1897 ..........2,676 1898 ..........2,336 1899 ----- 2,889 1900 ..........3,972 190 1.....3,810" In your opinion is this an exhaustive list of those persons whom we have called the en route persons, or not ?—No, I should think it is not. 131. Is there anything more that you can assist us with in relation to the returns, shutting out foreign law and foreign regulations as to these alien immi- grants?—You do not at present wish to pursue the subject of the returns under the Merchant Shipping Act ? 132. Will you tell us anything about it you think material; I do not think they carry us. any further, and 1 do not think they affect this class of inquiry very much ?—No, and I will leave them until any member of the Commission asks me about them. They affect esti- mates of the annual growth of the foreign element in the United Kingdom as a whole. 133. Let us have any information you can give about the returns, but I suppose they would include clerks and residents, and people who come over fox-hunting and *•0 on ?—Yes, anything, without going into greater detail. Pursuing the method I indicated, we should arrive at a net balance of foreign passengers inwards to the United Kingdom, that is to say, an excess of arrivals over departures of passengers of 25,000 in the year 1901, and a deduction has to be made from that for the case of a considerable number of foreign seamen who come in as passengers to the United Kingdom, and embark as crew. The Passenger Lists do not give any records of members of crews. If a man comes in as a passenger and goes out as a member of a crew, he is counted inwards and not counted outwards, and, therefore, deduction has to be made for that. 134. (Lord BothscMld.) I have only one question which I wish to ask you. Can you form any. idea of the number of persons who have not an en route ticket who leave the United Kingdom for America or else- where?—No, I am afraid I could not form an estimate, we only know that there is a good number, at least we suspect •there is a good number, but we are getting beyond the region of official statistics, I am afraid. 135. Have you ever compared your returns with the census returns making out the increase in the number of foreigners in the year?—Yes, I have looked at the two sets of figures in conjunction. 136. Do they bear out any of your anticipations, or do they prove anything?—The census figures are not at present put in. I understand that Mr. McLeod will lie called. {Chairman.) Mr. McLeod is going to be called, and perhaps Lord Rothschild will, postpone that until those ,iigures are put in. ' • 137. (Mr. Vallance.) I understand the variations in. the numbers of immigrants in different years were some- times associated with demands for labour. Have youi any facts which you can give showing where there has been an increase of immigrants there has also been a. special demand. You referred to the South Wales* works?—Yes, and I have heard of the employment of foreigners in the mines of the West of Scotland. I may say we do not hear officially of these things, but simply through the newspapers—information that is accessi- ble to all people ; but the great demand for labour that- there has been in such years as the year 1900, has no- doubt made an opening for foreigners. Perhaps, if you will follow the figures of the total number of aliens- who arrive who are not en route, you will see that they do correspond roughly to changes in the state of trade. I do not say they do precisely, but there is a depression, in the years of bad trade, and an increase in the years of good trade. I could work that out: by comparison with exports and imports. I have not done so, but I could do so. 138. (Chairman.) What years in recent times do you. call good years and bad years ?—I should say the recent years of most active employment were 1899 and 1900; 1901 started with being a good year, but on the whole, the tendency was downwards. There you see, as between 1898 and 1809 the number of these aliens who came in- creased from 40,000 to 50,000, and as between 1899 and 1900 they increased from 50,000 to 62,000; but in 1901 they drop to 55,000. I do not want to put too much stress upon it, but they seem to show a general sort of" c orr esp ondence. 139. (Mr. VaUance.) These statistics show the number of immigrants from various countries—Russia, Poland, and so forth. Have you any corresponding figures of emigrants to those countries?—No, we have not. We have no power to get them under the existing law, 140. (Chairman.) The Acts which culminated in 1836 were protective Acts against attack on this country by what may be called the alien invaders ?—Yes. 141. (Mr. Norman.) What steps are taken by the Board of Trade if, on the system of checking which you. have explained, the returns are found to be inaccurate ? —We always write and endeavour to find out the cause- of any discrepancy. I could >show you the results, say, for a month of the attempts to check the accuracy of' the returns. 142. Are inaccurate people amenable to the law in any way?—Yes, the masters of the vessels who make a false return are amenable to penalties. If you have a. copy of the Alien List you will find Section 2 of the- Alien Act printed on it. 143. Could you tell the Commission whether any of those penalties, and if so how many, have been en- forced within any given space of time ?—It must be a very small number, if any. I know of none, but, as a matter of fact, the checking has shown that the duties are very fairly carried out. 144. (Chairman.) It is in Section 2: "And if the master of any such vessel shall refuse or neglect to make such declaration or shall wilfully make a false declaration, he shall for every such offence forfeit £20." ' You would have to prove the wilful ?—Yes. 145. (Mr. Norman.) Have you any case of the master wilfully making a false return ?—I know of none— none have come to my knowledge since I have had to do with the matter. 146. Your inspectors, of course, come personally into« relation with these immigrants, or is all this which you have been describing to us so far done through the master of the vessel ?—The alien lists are rendered en- tirely through the master of the vessel, but in the case of the checking of one vessel in ten the Customs officer boards the vessel, and actually himself counts the aliens. He comes into relation with them, and in London, as I explained, and an certain other ports, that is done with a good many more vessels ; in fact, all vessels which bring or are suspected of bringing a con- siderable number of aliens. 147. Are the Custom House officers who check under the authority of the Board of Trade?—Technically not, but the special officer^ of Customs is put on by the- Customs at the reqiiest of the Board of Trade. As a matter of form we should write to the Customs and ask them to give directions, but the form of the return • was arranged in'consultation with the Board of Trade. There is not the slightest difficulty in getting the direc-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE tions carried out. I think I might put in, if you care for it, the general order of the Customs prescribing "what should be done. It is dated 1894. 148. What persons meet these immigrants on behalf of the British Government who speak the language of the immigrants ?—1The officer of Customs, if necessary, employs an interpreter. You will finid it is provided for in that Order. 149. Under what circumstances would he consider it -necessary to employ an interpreter ?—I think (he perma- nently employs: an interpreter in the Port of London. He certainly did, and I think he still does so. I am "told that the officer of Customs in the Port of London can speak the language to some extent. 150. What language?—Yiddish. It is "the jargon which the Russian and Polish Jews speak. 151. Oould you say what proportion of immigrants, speaking quite roughly, did speak Yiddish?—I should "think the vast majority of the Russians and Poles, and of the Austrians and Roumanians. Of a total of *27,000 who oaane toi London in 1901, 16,000 were Russians and Poles, and nearly 1,000 were Roumanians. .Nearly 2,000 were Austrian® -and Hungarians. A cer- tain number of those would not 'be of that class, but a •considerable majority would. 152. In this specimen list of aliens you showed us from one ship I isee certain occupations or professions put down. Is any occupation or profession put down that the immigrant states without investigation of any Itind?—I explained to the chairman that we cannot check that, but we do not, as a matter of fact, tabulate "the statements. 153. You spoke of visiting all vessels suspected of "bringing a considerable number of immigrants ?—Yes. 154. Oould you tell us something laibouit the grounds •of that suspicion with a view to enabling the Commis- sion to foum some opinion as to what proportion of vessels that are not examined might bring immigrants ? —You understand all the vessels which come, whether •examined or not, have to furnish the alien list. Ail vessels are under the statutory obligation with the ; ship's report to furnish this list- When I spoke of the boarding of the vessels suspected of bringing aliens, that was simply for checking purposes. I will make .an inquiry as to what exactly the Customs House officer's practice is. I know he boards a good many. I am informed that the officer of Customs at the Port of .London) judges by the port of origin chiefly. He boards all vessels coming from Hamburg, Bremen, Rotterdam, and Libau. 155. How do you know that people described as being ■ en route really go on?—It is the business of the master of the vessel to satisfy himself by his through ticket. * There is no such thing as a statistic of intention. There. must be some fact to go by. 156. That is my point precisely. The evidence that they go on consists of the through'ticket?1—Yes. 157. Who sees the through ticket?—I cannot go behind the return, The master of the vessel is supposed -to satisfy (himself. 158. Do I understand you to tell the Commission, that the only evidence that exists that these people go on is that the miaster of the vessel is supposed to* see their through ticket %—That is the only evidence. The master of the vessel is under statutory obligation to return these people, and he makes a certain return. I have explained to the Commission the mode of checking it in certain ciases by a count of 1 in 10, in which case the officer of Customs would satisfy himself. 159. The master is not under a statutory obligation to see their through ticket?—No, but he is under a statutory obligation to make a full return of Christian name, surname, profession, sex, and native country. "Unless he avails himself of this relaxation in regard to the persons who have through tickets, he comes under the obligation to give us a full list of all the particulars. 160. Am I right in understanding you to tell the Com- mission that the only basis for* that class of statistics - and all these lists of people who are stated to be en route to some other place outside the United Kingdom is the belief or the expectation of the Board of Trade that the master of the vessel has himself seen the through ticket which he is under no obligation to see ?—The basis is entirely the return of the master. I thought I had « explained to the Commission the method of checking .-about one vessel in ten, in which the officer of Customs himself sees the through tickets. Beyond the checking ji ££ there is nothing else. There is nothing else except the Smith. statement of the master checked at intervals. - 161. I attach very great importance to this, so I am ^ 1902. obliged to pursue it P—Apart from the methods of check- ing which I have given, which, as regards the ports at which there are persons in large numbers in transit, consists of the counting of one vessel in ten plus an occasional inspection lasting for, say, a week, of all vessels—apart from that, the return rests on the state- ment of the master entirely. 162. Then I may take it that in the case of nine vessels out of ten that bring immigrants into the port of London, you have no official knowledge that the people who afe stated to be en route to any other country have even the evidence of a through ticket that they are going on ?—I have stated what the basis of the evidence is. I cannot admit that a check by sample does not check anything except the particular sample. There is the logic of chance to1 be taken into consideration. 163. Would it be correct to say that there might be a considerable number of immigrants stated to be en route out of the United Kingdom who were, as a matter of fact, not en route ?—You mean if the returns were false? 164. No, I mean with the checking system is it not possible under that system that there might be a con- siderable number who are for any cause wrongly so described?—It is conceivably so. 165. (Chairman.) They may forfeit their tickets?— Yes, and of course it might chance that in the nine vessels not boarded, the figures were wrong, and in the other vessel boarded they were right. But it seems very unlikely. 166. (Mr. Norman.) There is the possibility of a very large margin of error in the statement ?—I will say there is the possibility of a margin. I would not say a very large margin, because I do not think it is large. 167. To pursue that question a little more in detail, "these through tickets, I take it, bear on their face no identification of ownership. They are just like any other ticket ?—I should think so. I have not gone into that. 168. Therefore what would prevent an exchange of ticket and the saane ticket being used for more than one passenger for the purposes of exhibition to the autho- rities ?—'I cannot say, except, again, the check. A Customs House officer who allowed that to be done would not be quite fit for the work. 169. If it were (and I do not say it is) to- anybody's interest to represent people as going when, as a matter of fact, they are staying, they would, in the absence of identification of ticket and the possibility of exchange of ticket, be able to a considerable extent to* do so?— If the interest in doing i't was sufficiently strong it would to a certain extent, but I could not say how far that would be possible. I think in a few minutes I could show you a passage of the adtuial report of the Customs House officer who saw the actual tickets. I do not know how far that would help you. 170. You told the Commission just now in answering a question of the Chairman about the explanation of a certain decrease of arrivals in the Port of London in a certain year that, in your opinion, this immigration follows the course of the labour market, and it is a matter, to a large extent, of the fluctuation of trade ?— It is not entirely. I merely threw that out as one ot the causes. It is not only the absolute state of thft labour market here, but the relative state of the United States and this country, and it also is affedted on the other hand by the measures taken by the Russian and other Governments with regard to the Jews, no doubt. 171. That is precisely the point 'I was conning to. Do you hold that caoises of attraction, if I may so word it, are more important than causes of rejection?—I think they are both important. It would be a mere guess if I said which I thought was the mqre important—in some years one is more important thaoi the other. In 1881 it was undoubtedly rejection, and also, if I remember rightly, in the year 1891 or thereabouts. In recent years I should imagine it was more because of attraction, except in the case of Roumania. 172. What was the cause of rejection in 18811—I can- not give details, but it was the enactment of w(hat are known as the May laws in Russia, which it was said pre- judicially affected the Jews. 173. (Lord Rothschild.) The May laws increased the immigration to this country ?—Undoubtedly.f ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: IMk H. LL 174. (Mr. Norman.) .Would not you expect racial timith. . troubles in the country of origin—persecution and re- i - pressive laws—to automatically increase the imandgra- 2* Apr. 1902. froim those places?—Certainly it would tend to - do so. 175. To a larger extent, do you think, or.^not to-so largo an extent as the attraction in say the United States from the labour ma;rket ?—I should not like to balance the two without thinking the thing over more. I will make a note of it. All I oain say is it is a com- plex of causes. In some" years, with some trades, and with some races one cause 'will predominate, and in other cases another. I should not like to go beyond that. 176. Would not you think that these causes, some of which I have roughly Specified, would be at least so im- portant as very mat erially to prevent under-any circum- stances this immigration following.the attractive course of trade ?—They undoubtedly complicate it. I gave one instance of the May laws of Russia in which they would entirely throw out any correspondence. May I take for the last year, 1900, two nationalities which will give an illustration of what I mean. There was a considerable increase in that year of the immigration from Roumania •and from Italy. I should say in the first case, the Roumanians, it was due to causes of rejection. In the case of the,Italians it was due undoubtedly to the attrac- tive (force of the great demand for labour in certain occupations. 177. Then to a certain extent, in your, opinion would they necessarily work automatically/ Severe treatment of any kind in the countries of origin woifld automati- cally; produce a rise in the statistics of immigration here?—It would produce a tendency of the people to go somewhere, and they might come here. 178. You would expect them, as a matter of fact, to come here or to go to the United States ?—Yes, I think it would be most likely. They would, not go to South Africa just now, but there has been a stream going there before. 179. Am I right in gathering from your answers to the question that the Chairman and Lord Rothschild put to you that you cannot say you have any know- ledge whatever of the proportion of immigrants not stated to be en route to other countries who, as a matter of fact, do go on?—No. Our official statistics throw no light on that beyond giving the miiiimum. 180. {Major Evans^Gordon.) Do the people specified as en route land in this country ?—Yest . 181. All?—Yes, I think all. ' 182. After they land they are completely lost sight of. * There is no further touch of them at all?—No, when they have been entered as holding through tickets, that is the end of them, so far as our figures are con- cerned. , 183. Except where the names sometimes correspond! —The people whose names sometimes correspond are the people not entered on the alien lists as in transit. .184. You have no information after these en routes land whether they go on?—No, except that if any con- siderable number of them do not go on they must accu- mulate somewhere, and we should hear of them. Of course, you will understand that the persons said to be in transit are almost entirely the persons who go to the Humber and the north-eastern sports. ; They are not the people who come to London at all. There were only five people so stated in the alien lists in London last year. 185. The en route list practically does not apply to London ;—No ; the ports where the shipowners sought relief from the obligation of returning full particulars of* all • the passengers they landed were the r ports of the Humber and the north-east coast. No doubt,' if anybody wished to make the distinction in London we should allow them to dq so in the same, way, r but r there1 is not the same motive. ~ May I hand you in a paper to show, very qXe&rly where the tra.ns-migria.nts, come to.' ' ' . ' - ' 186.1: understand as far as you can-say, - all the aliens' practically who come to London stay •?—Oh, . no. I say that th.e distinction is not made inrttye ali&n lists. It is riot a statutory distinction. . 187. Is it .,voluntary ?—It is voluntary ; and there not being "the" same motive to make it in London, it is i^Lot made. . . .. 188. Why is^ themotive non-existent in London?—' Because there is no doubt the proportion of tho§e- who come to London holding through tickets is lower than the proportion at those northern ports. If you turn to Grimsby or Hull, speaking without the figures before me, I think it comes to about 80 per cent, who are going through. It is a considerable relief to the master of a vessel to be allowed only to give a» total. ' 189. Can you assign any reason for there being a. greater proportion in the northern ports %—I think it. is explained if you see the ports from which they come. They are people coming largely from the Scan- dinavian countries and Denmark. 190. How do they come on from there? Do they~ cross by rail %—I should think they go straight across to Liverpool or Southampton, and go on—booked through. 191. There is a material difference in fact; in the^ case of people who go to these northern ports, they are mostly from Scandinavia and .so on?—The charac- ter of the whole traffic through these northern ports- is quite different from that which comes to the Thames, and should be kept, if I might suggest, distinct; and I think some of the questions which have been put with regard to the transit passengers have ignored. the fact that almost all the passengers shown in" the statistics to be en route are -those who arrive at the northern ports, not because there are none en route in the others, but because the distinction is not made. 192. The reason for the distinction not being made• is because there are comparatively few going on?— Comparatively few—that is to say a smaller proportion ; but also one other point which weighs a good deal is that they come in smaller batches. There is not. such a large number to get returns from on a par- ticular vessel. 193. They dribble in more ?—Yes; so that it i& > not the great relief which it is to say the Wilson Line coming to Hull to be allowed to give only a total instead of the names. 194. If there were many going on in the London. traffic, clearly the masters, because it would save them a great deal of trouble, would make tKat dis- tinction ?—-If the proportion was large enough. 195. It would save trouble?—It does not save much, trouble on a small list. r 196. The proportion being small %—Yes; and the consignments being small. There is no doubt, the - proportion is small. There is a very much larger immi- gration into London for settlement than there is to the northern ports. 197., I should like you to give me a, sort of rough , description of the difference between the; traffic in the northern ports and the London traffic, because it is important to have that. It is rather the quality I want to get at?—-If you take Grimsby, or perhaps Hull-—an even better figure—in 1901 there were 45,000 • trans-migrants who. came into Hull; that is to say persons returned as holding through tickets; 25,000 * of those, came from Scandinavian ports. Perhaps that almost answers your question. 198. (Chairman.) Could you make that table a little more complete by putting in the correspondence as regards the London immigrants? Take the Scan- dinavians and the Russians, so as to show the com- parison between the different nationalities going to * London and; the .northern .ports, because, that table ■ does not touch London, and what I thinfc ifr© want is to get the comparison ?—Yes'; I could easily do that! 199. If you will make that more complete we shall get at that which most of us. think very important? —Yes. . ' / , 200. This particular table only applies to trans- migrants, and I Would liike /th^t amplified ?/—-Cer- tainly. ,201. (Major, Evans-Gordon.) Can you help us with . regard to giving us any rough distinction between the quality or social status of the two classes of im- migrants to the northern ports as distinguished from London-?—I have not come to-day prepare^ to go in:o - that. I should rather like to take a note, of -that. I came to-day really to put in the statistical tables, and of course the statistics do not show that. ' , .. 202. But" you could - give us that ?—I coulli fgive "no • official information, and I do :not suppose I could give. •MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 9 so good a personal opinion as many unofficial witnesses whom you wall have. 203. The Customs Inspector employed indirectly by your department will know?—He would probably be able to say something' about that. 204. Some pf them, go both to the north and to .London?-—Yes. . 205. There is' one other point I wanted to make a little clearer with regard to the question Mr. Norman has asked you as to trade. Are these people attracted by the trade. Are they attracted to come over here and work, s&y, in the mines in Wales?—I should think in some cases they probably are, but we have no official information of that.' 206. They are attracted over ?—I should think in some cases they would be imported, and in some cages not; simply come over to seek for labour. In some cases they would be half-way between that—that is to say, they would be written; for by friends. I am simply giving you my impression. We have no information about that. 207. Now, there is one more point with regard to sea- men, I see that seamen are roughly 14,950?—Yes, in 1901 they were 15,146. 208. How are those statistics with regard to seamen collected ?—From the Alien Lists. 209. They are returned by the masters of the ships as seamen ?—Yes. 210. Is there any direct evidence that they continue in their employment as seamen. Is there any evidence that they go out again as seamen?—I took some trouble last year to make a number of inquiries at different ports, and also from 'Consuls abroad, so as to clear up what to me was rather mysterious about that number- of seamen coming. I am afraid I cannot give a statistical classification of them, but I canl tell,you pretty well what they are. In the first place there are a certain number who come in to take service in our mercantile marine. It is a small proportion of the whole as is shown by the fact that in the year in which the 15,000 foreign seamen came in, the increase in foreign seamen in the British Mercantile Marine was only about 800. Of course, that is a net increase, be- cause some would die or go out, but evidently it is only a very small proportion of the whole. A certain number of the remainder we understand are Scandinavian sea- men already employed in the British Mercantile Marine, who, when they have saved a little, go home for a holiday to their friends, and come back as passengers. They are not additions, but they are people who have gone home, and the remainder (and a very considerable proportion it must be) seem to be chiefly foreign seamen sent over to take charge of vessels •built in this country for foreigners, or sold to foreigners, to man them, and take them.,away. They come over as passengers, man those ships, and leave as crews. 211. Would Japanese man-of-war's men be brought into that in any way now ?—I do not know. I did not inquire into that, but if they were distinguished in the returns as belonging to a man-of-war they would, I understand, be excluded. 212. That is the sort of thing ?—Yes. You may take it roughly they are people who oome into our mercantile marine and people already in it who have gone back for a holiday and returned, and people sent over from abroad to take charge of ships, either newly built or sold off the register 213. Then those seamen who take service in our marine should not be deducted from the return of aliens ?—Those who enter our marine for the first time no doubt are true immigrants. 214. Then the statistics would not be accurate in that?—I do not think there is any inaccuracy so far as our returns of alien immigrants are concerned. We put seamen in as a separate total because so very large a proportion of them are not immigrants for settlement. We show them separately, but we do not omit them. 215. In your inquiries have you come across any evidence showing that there is a class among the seamen who come over here working their way over here as sea- men and then land and remain. My point is this, it is a natural way for a man who wishes to come to this country or any country to work his passage when he has not other means of getting a passage. He ships as a fH44 seaman and lands ?—'Yes, I see your point, and I cann@t Mr. JI. LI. tell you without refreshing my memory quite what, led Smith. me to think that there was not anything in that, but we ■ went into it pretty elaborately, and I did not find there Apr. seemed to be any evidence. These Norwegian sailors chiefly take service with the sailing vessels going long voyages. There is not much room, for them I should think to work their passages in the liners which trade between Scandinavia and this country. But, of course the shipowners could tell you better about that than we could. ... 216. On the figures as they stand it is possible that some of these 14,000 would be people whorworked their passage ?—None of these 14,000/ because people who work their passage are part of the crew,' and not passen^ gers and the Alien Acts are entirely confined to passen- 217. {Chairman.) They would be exempted from the return?—Yes. .< (The proceedings were adjourned for a short time.) 218. (Chairman.) The information that you get of a statutory character, as far as I. know speaking of the Aliens Act as distinguished from Merchant Shipping, is contained in Section 2 of that Act ?—Yes. 219. The legal obligation, thrown upon the master is " to make a return of any alien aboard his vessel, and whether any alien has to his knowledge landed there- from, at any place within this realm." That is all?— Yes. 220. So anything that is done by him as to this ques- tion of en route is not by way„of statutory obligation, but a voluntary act on his part ?—Yes. . 221. Therefore, you are, of course, considerably at the mercy of those persons who make the return ?—Yes. 222. It is by the same section also provided, " That nothing hereinbefore contained shall extend to any mariner actually employed in the navigation of the vessel during the time such mariner shall rejmain so actually employed " ?—Yes. 223. That would exempt the return of the Scandina - vian seamen working for passage ?—Yes. 224. There) is a question which has been suggested to me which I will ask you. Have you any -means of re- cording the nationality of foreigners who leave the United Kingdom for places in Europe ?—No. We have no means. Of course, from a statistical point of view we should be very glad to have means. It is a big gap in our statistics. 225. As to these tables I believe you can make themi rather more complete, especially about the northern ports. Therefore, you will complete them and we will recall you to put in these tables, so as to get them on the Appendix?—-Yes. 226. Can you give us any information as to the number of aliens that are chargeable upon the rates ?— Particu- lars with regard to the number of aliens chargeable to the rates are obtained for us by the Local Government Board, with regard to the chief towns of the United Kingdom. We have not the full returns for 1901, but I can give you the figure for London, and for one or two other towns for 1900. The number of aliens who- were relieved by Poor Law Authorities in London in 1900 was 2,015, of whom about 1,500 appear to have been Russians or Poles. That compares with 2,895 relieved including 2,306 Russians or Poles in the- previous year, 1899. As regards certain Poor Law Unions the figures for both these years relate only to> foreigners who had not acquired a settlement, but this, does not make much difference to the total, as the unions chiefly inhabited by aliens included all alien paupers in their return. I should like to explain that the figure given is the total number of separate indivi- duals who. were relieved at any time during the year. It is not the total number of cases of relief given, count- ing the same men over and over again, nor is it the- mean number relieved, that is to say, the average number relieved on any one day of the year. It is the total number of persons who at any time during the year came on the rates. 227. Would children come in as separate persons?— Whatever rule is applied in counting paupers for the Whole population would apply to this. I believe in cer- tain cases the children do come in, but I am not pre- pared to go into that point in detail, because all that is under the Local Government Board. B10 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. LI. 228. If it is out-door relief the out-door relief would Smith. be given to the head of the family?—Yes ; and then it ^ . ——- includes mediciail relief. A large number of these oases ^Pr* *902. are relieved medically only. 229. Is there out-door relief as ajpart from medical relief (now given in London 1—Yes, there is-—not to able- bodied people, but of course, Mr- Yallance would knew so very much more about that than I do 230. Mr. Yallance is good enough to 'hand me a docu- ment which shows each individual person. If there were two children relieved they would be treated as two persons, admission to infirmary is the same, and ad- mission to workhouse the same, but when you come to anything like general outdoor relief the head of the family would be treated as the person relieved ?—Yes. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is there any distinction in these figures you have got between outdoor and indoor I 231. {Chairman.) There is thi-s distinction that in in- door relief you would have each individual ?—Quite so (Major Evans-Gordon.) I think it is important do get whether they are indoor or outdoor. 232. (Chairman.) Mr. Yallance, a member of the Com- mission, says in cases which he has referred to in the Whitechapel Union there was no relief at all except medical relief, but there would be no outdoor relief in the shape of money or bread. Are those figures for the Metropolitan area?—Yes. 233. Gould you give, what we think important, namely, how many were relieved in Stepney, for in- stance?—Yes, I could get hat figure, and I could also I think get the classification as to whether it was indoor, medical, or outdoor. I was not sure you were going to examine me about this. We can, I think, show that for every metropolitan borough or poor-law union. 234. The two I should direct my attention to princi- pally would 'be Stepney and Hiolborn. If you cannot give this information to us, we must go to the Poor Law Authorities for it?—We can give it in any degree of detail you want, but the whole thing comes to such a small total that we have never published the detail. - 235. {Major Evans-Gordon.) May I ask one other question. Have you any information with regard to aliens in asylums ?—To some extent I suppose they are aready included in> the return. " Workhouse or Asylum " is one of the headings, but it would not include non-pauper asylums. I have not got anything except so far as the asylum comes under this heading 236. But not as to the County Council ?—I have not got the returns, but I should think I could get them. (Chairman.) ^Fow you can give me some assistance I believe as to the American and Colonial legislation in respect to alien immigration?—I have got together, thinking it might be of some assistance to the Commis- sion, all the information that we have with regard to the United States and Colonial legislation. Perhaps I should say I have reason to believe it represents the present facts, but we have not made a special enquiry of an exhaustive character within the last year or two. 237. 'Before you come to that I Will read a passage from a document to form a sorb of basis for this branch of your evidence. This was sent to me by the Foreign Office, It is the message of the President of the United States to the two Houses of Congress for 1901, and the President deals with this subject in a way which I think will be interesting for the Commission to> be aware of. " Our present Immigration Laiws are unsatis- factory. We need every honest and efficient immigrant fitted to become an American citizen, every immigrant who comes here to stay, who brings here a strong body, a stout heart, a good head, and a resolute purpose to <uld not keep out all anarchists, for. many of them belong to the intelligent criminal class. But it would do what is also in point, that is tend to decrease the &um of ignorance, so potent in producing the envy, sus- picion, malignant passion and hatred of order, out of which anarchistic sentiment inevitably spring. Finally, all persons should be excluded who are below a certain standard of economic fitness 'to enter our industrial field as competitors with American labour. There should be proper proof of personal capacity to earn an American living, and enough money to ensure a decent start under American conditions. This would stop the influx of cheap labour, and the resulting competition which gives rise to so much of bitterness in American indus- trial life; and it would dry up the springs of the pesti- lential social conditions in our great cities where anarchistic organisations have tfreir greatest possibility of growth. Both the educational and economic tests in a wise immigration law should be designed to protect and elevate the general body politic and social. A very close supervision should be exercised over the steam- ship companies, which mainly bring over the immi- grants, and they should be held to a strict account- ability for any infraction of the law." Now, will you tell us as far as you know, what is the existing law in the United States?—The existing laws in the United States as regards immigration are not codified in any one enactment. Broadly there are two sets of laws, or, perhaps, I should say three sets of laws. The first deals exclusively with the Chinese. I do not know whether the Commission will want to go into that— the Chinese Exclusion Acts. 238. Give us the general effect ?—By the Act of 1882 Chinese labourers were prohibited from entering the United States for ten years. That was renewed in 1892 for a further term of ten years. There is a certain saving for persons in transit, and persons other than laibourers. It applies to persons of the Chinese race, whether subjects of China or any other Power. The laws that should be noted are the laws of 1882, 1884. 1888 and 1892. Then in 1894 there was a Convention with the Chinese Government proclaimed by the President, and I suppose ratified, which, tinder American law, would form part of the domestic law. But broadly and without going into details, I have given the general effect. It is to exclude totally the immigration of Chinese labourers. 239. Now as to the general immigrant ?—The general immigration laws may again be divided, not so com- pletely but roughly, into two. The first set, which I may call the Contract Labour Laws, are designed to pro- hibit the entrance into the United States of persons under contract of labour or service. The main law is a law of 1885, and there are other laws amending and improving the administration of that, but practically under the general law, which I shall be coming to in a moment, regulating immigration generally into the United States, the administration of the Contract Labour Law is assimilated^with that of the laws regulating the immigration of the classes of persons that this Commis- sion is considering. The persons excluded under the Contract Labour Law are shown in the Act of 1885. " From.and after the passage of this Act it shall be un- lawful for any person, company, partnership, or cor- poration, in any manner whatsoever, to prepay the transportation or in any way assist or encourage the importation or migration of any alien or aliens, any agreement, parol or special, express or implied, made previous to the importation or migration of such alien or aliens, foreigner or foreigners, to perform labour or service of any kind in the United States, its Territories, or the District of Columbia." And there are penalties on any person who encourages or solicits such migration, and on the master of the vessel who brings them. There is a certain saving for skilled labour—" skilled workmen in foreign countries imported to perform labour in the United States, in or upon any new industry not at present established in the United States," also certain professional people, actors, artists, lecturers, or singers, and persons employed strictly as personal or domestic servants. 240. Take an actor going over ; he is not prohibited ? —No, his position is saved, and it was decided by the Courts in 1892 that ministers of religion were also exempted. I believe a case arose in which a minister had been called by some congregation in America, and had been refused admission. 241. He was under contract for labour?—So it was supposed until the decision of the United States Court.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 11 242. Thas has been altered ?—Yes, but there was an extension of the meaning of " contract" in the Act of 1891 which is, somewhat important. " It shall be deemed a violation of said Act "—that means the Act I have read—-" to assist or encourage the importation or migra- tion of any alien by promise of employment through ad- vertisements printed and published in any foreign country; and any alien coming to this country in conse- quence of such an advertisement shall be treated as coming under a contract as contemplated by such Act." 243. .Of . course these may be persons of high cha- racter and good economic condition. Give us the enact- ments with regard to what we call the unsanitary people i -—The general law restricting what may be called un- desirable persons ? I do not know that I need go behind the law of 1891. There was a law of 1882 which declared what classes of people were not eligible for conting in, but there was no particular machinery. 244. Is 1891 the existing law?—1891 is the main law. It is amended a little, but it is the main law. 1891 and 1893 are the fact that one of the questions the immigrant not answer is whotller he does possess 30 dollars ,or 251. Is there any exclusion on the ground of im- peowMosity-No, except as affording prima facie ch£?eCe man 'S Mkely t0 beCOme a P"blic 252. Read those words ?—" Paupers or persons likely to become a public charge." • 253. There is no definition of " paupers No, mome! 254. (Mr. Norman.) As a matter of fact, an iirwni- grant cannot get in without any money at all 1_Yes I have seen them let in without money. 255. Without any money or sign of money, or any- body to promise money on his behalf ?—I do not say without anybody to help him. The possession of money does not absolutely entitle them to go in, and the absence of money does not absolutely keep them out, but the amount of money is probably part of the evidence for the inspector to judge by. If you are interested in the legal " Feinknopf »qU 7°" might look "P case of 256. (Chairman.) Is that an American case ?—Yes I have a short report of it. The matter is also expressly dealt with m a circular issued by the Italian Government United Stei40 atl0n With the Govemment of the ' iIf PauPers are excluded, what test of pauperism could be obtained on a vessel except the fact that the traveller has got no money?—The duty is cast on the inspecting officer of saying whether an alien immigrant is likely to become a public charge, and no doubt he takes into consideration infirmity, age, the existence or absence of able-bodied relatives, and so on, in considering charge1 ^ °aU witllout becoming a public I258. Have you any return of the number of persons who have been kept out of the United States ?—I can give you the full figures of the number 6f persons re- 'ino? Mmreittrned'. Then> goinS on wit}l the Act of 18®3.: _Whether going to join a relative, and, if so, what-relative, and his name and ad'dfesis: whether ever before in the United States, if so when and where; wheifiher ever in prison or almshouse, or supported by charity ; whether a polygamic- whether under contract, express or implied, to perform labour in the United. States." That is not a question likely to be answered truly by a person, who knows he B 212 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. LI. Smith. 24 Apr. 1902. will be kept out. " What is the immigrant's condition of health mentally and physically, and whether deformed or crippled, and, if so, from what cause." 259. (Chairman.) "Deformed and crippled," does that come under a statutory enactment ?—No, I suppose it is simply one item of evidence that the man is likely to become a public charge. Another important thing in this Act is Section 5, which gives the actual method of admitting or reject- ing : " It shall be the duty of every inspector of arriving alien immigrants to detain for a special en- quiry under Section 1 of the Immigration Act of March the 3rd, 1891, every person who may not appear to him to be clearly and beyond doubt entitled to admission, and all special enquiries shall be conducted by not less than four officials acting as inspectors, to be designated in writing by the Secretary of the Treasury or the super- intendent of immigration for conducting special en- quiries ; and no immigrant shall be admitted upon special enquiry except after a favourable decision made by at least three of the said inspectors." The proceed- ing is, if an inspector has the least suspicion that a man belongs to an excluded class, he puts him aside; then he has to come before this board of four or more people, and three of these have to agree that he is admissible before he can get an. " And any decision to admit shall be sub- ject to appeal by any dissenting inspector to the super- intendent of immigration, whose action shall be sub- ject to review by the Secretary of the Treasury." That is a different machinery from what was in existence be- forehand, by which1 the inspector himself had to decide rejections or admissions subject to appeal. The only Act subsequent to 1893 which is at all relevant as far as I know, is the head tax law of 1894, and all it did with regard to this was to increase the tax fr in varying amounts to defray any cost to the public of the maintenance of such persons. The Act in Canada is the Immigration Act of 1886, and more or less similar Acts exist in Victoria, 1890 ; Tasmania, 1885, is the oldest ; then South Australia, 1891; West Australia, 1892; New South Wales, 1893. If the Commission are interested in the actual ♦clauses of those Acts they are contained in a very convenient little handbook issued by the Emi- grants' Information Office. 295. Where does Natal com© in in that list ?—It does " not come in under this head. These are the laws relating to the ^giving of bonds. Natal comes in as regards the ^education test. The infirm and idiotic person is dealt with chiefly by requiring a bond by the man who has "brought him, to s?ig)|yort:iany charges. Mr. H. Id. Smith, d 296. If a person arrived in a port subject to any on$ of those Colonial laws, say he was deaf and dumb, would they let him land, or would they say he must go back ?— -— I think they let him land, but if he becomes a public. 24 Apr. ,1902. charge, owing to his being deaf and dumb, the master of ^ the vessel has to defray it. 297. Is he put into quarantine ?—I think the Colonial Acts differ a little in that. I see the Canadian Act in Section 17 provides for the taking of a bond of 300 dollars from the master of the vessel to cover cost of mainten- ance if becoming chargeable within three years, and such person may be re-conveyed to the port fr»m which he was carried to Canada. Then there is a special power in this Act to the Governor-Genera! under proclamation to "Prohibit the landing in Canada of any criminal or other vicious class of immigrants designated in such proclamaton, except upon such conditions for ensuring their ^transportation to the port in Europe whence they came with the least possible delay." So as regards vicious and criminal immigrants, there is a proclamation under that section, on the 23rd of August, 1900, but I have no knowledge how many have been returned under it. The Act itself is dated 1886. It went on for 14 years without any proclamation. Then there is another power by proclamation to prohibit the landing of any pauper or destitute immigrant until such sums of money as are found necessary are provided and paid into the hands of one of the Canadian immigra- tion agents by the master of the vessel carrying such immigrants, for their temporary support and transport to their place of destination. It is merely a temporary delay to carry them to their place of des- tination. There is no provision for returning them. Generally speaking, I may say that the set of laws that I have mentioned vary in detail, but they deal with the case of infirm persons and persons who are likely to be a public burden, and the method is to require a bond from the master of the vessel. Then comes an entirely different set of laws of which the Natal Act is jl type which, besides excluding idiots and insane persons and so forth, imposes an educational test. The Immigra- tion Restriction Act, 1897, in Natal, begins by enume- rating certain classes of people to whom it does not apply. For example, " Any person for whose immigra- tion into Natal provision is made by law or by a scheme approved by the Government; any person specially exempted from the operation of this Act by a writing under the hand of the Colonial Secretary; Her Majesty's land and sea forces; the officers and crew of any ship of war of any Government"; and so forth. And, except as regards these classes, it prohibits the entry into Natal of any person of any of the classes defined in the following sub-sections, and the first of them is this educational one : " Any per- son who, when asked to do so by an officer appointed under this Act, shall fail to himself write out and sign, in the characters of any language of Europe, an applica- tion to> the Colonial Secretary in the form set out in Schedule B of this Act." 298. That seems aimed at the Asiatic ?—Yes, there is no doubt at all that it was. It was to keep the Asiatic out without naming him. That is clearly shown in the preamble of the New Zealand Act, which begins : " Whereas the Bill intituled ' The Asiatic Restriction Act, 1896,' has not been assented to by Her Majesty, and it is expedient to make other provision for restrict- ing immigration into New Zealand in certain cases, be it therefore enacted." 299. What is the date of that Act ?—1900. 300. By that recital there appears to have been a positive exclusion, reused by the Colonial Office here, and then this is done to produce exactly the same result in different language ?■—Yes. 301. That Act has been allowed ?—Yes, I understand so. 302. Of course, if the Japanese had that knowledge, which a great many of them have, of English, they would get through ?—They would get in. 303. I suppose the mere Japanese workmen would not come within that range of knowledge?—No, probably not. The Act of Natal was dated 1897; West Australia followed in the same year; New South Wales and Tasmania in 1898. 304. These are purely labour protection Acts—these education tests ?—Yes, but I may say the Natal Act, which is followed by some of the other ones, also deals with-idiots, paupers, destitute persons, criminals, and prostitutes, so it takes in most of the classes which the14 KOYAL COMMISSION ON AI.IEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. H. Li. American Immigration Law aims at, with this great distinction, that it applies them to all persons whether 4 : —— aliens or British. But New Zealand has got a real alien .24 Apr; 1902. Act. New Zealand follows the terminology of the Natal Act, except that it omits paupers and persons likely to become a public charge. New Zealand does not deal with them at all. So far as the illiterate clause is concerned it is confined to aliens. I will read the words : "Any person other than of British (including Irish) birth and parent- age, who, when asked so to do by an officer appointed under this Act by the Governor, fails to himself write out and sign, in the presence of such officer, in any European language, an application," and so forth. So that is an alien restriction, and the only one I know of- 305. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What is .the 'machinery of exclusion in this Act?—I have got the details about that. I will take the Natal Act as a type. There is a penalty on the immigrant if he gets in. Not only he may be sent back, but he may foe put in prison for not exceeding six months, unless he can find sureties that he will leaves the colony. There is a penalty on the master and owner of the vessel. (iGhdirrrtctn.) They do not say how they decide whether a man is an idiot or not. 306. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is it a matter for the Courts or is it a matter of administration?—It seems to be a matter for the Courts in Natal. There is a penalty on the master and the owner of the vessel, and on anybody Who has encouraged a man or helped a man of the pro- hibited classes to come, but there is a clause that the Governor may appoint officers for the purpose of carry- ing out tho provisions of this Act and may define the duties of such officers, so there is probably some adminis- trative machinery for the purpose/but I cannot really give you details about that. Perhaps I should say how far other colonies have followed Natal as regards these classes of people. West Australia is the only one that excludes them all; New South'Wales confines the Act to people who cannot read and write; the Tasmanian l*iw excepts prostitutes. New Zealand omits paupers, and confines the illiterate clause to aliens. 307. (Chairman.) You. have no; statistical return as to how many were excluded from these colonies ?—No, I have not got any. . They are all very recent Acts, and I do not think we have got any figures. We have certain imperfect returns as regards Canada, not from, Canadian sources, but from the shipping companies ; people who! have gone across from this country and been rejected. There have been a small number ; I could get those figures. * 308; I think we .should like those figures?—It is not a complete statement.' .. 309. No, but any guide will assist us ?—Might I refer, talking about the educational test, to the American law which was passed (through both Houses of Congress, but was vetoed^ by the President ('Cleveland) in l$97;?y It was just about the same time as the Natal Act—the same'year. .. ' '310. What was their test?—It left out the word "European." The te&t Was' ability to read and write in an^ language. 311v That was thought to be more general in its-scope. It was not aimed at Asiatic intrusion ?—-No ; the whole law in detail and the message of President Cleveland vetoing it are given in full in. a Foreign Office report on Immigration into the United States, dated 1898. • 312. (Major Evans-Gordon) There is one 1 question with regard to America that/ as far as I remember, Was not made quite /dear, with regard to the penalties for non-compliance with the Act. We did not make out exactly what were the penalties on shipowners-^hov? the law-isVedforced, in fact^-nMsiy I take first in order, the different obligations? Iri tfe first place the master or commanding officer has to, deliver to the Immigration OfficeJ all details'l^oiit 6very immigrant. -, Tfeo^e that you have read out ?—Yes. If he fails ."there shall be paid,to the-Collector of Customs at %e port of arrival the sum oMOdollafls for each immigrant qualified |o enter the United States concerning whom:the above inf'orniMbn isj not .contained in/ any ."list." He is fined. 'L ;' "w ' 314. He is fined for not filling up the list to begiii. with ?—Yes. " Any person who shall bring into or land in the United States by vessel or otherwise, or who shall, aid to bring into or land in the United States by vessel or otherwise, any alien not lawfully entitled to enter the- United States, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall, on conviction, be punished by a fine not ex- ceeding one thousand dollars, or by imprisonment for a. term not exceeding one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment." Then I think you have already had the- machinery about sending aliens back. That is not penalty. 315. They are put on board the ship?—-They are- reanoved to (the Immigration Depdt. The doubtful cases- are put aside, and this Board of four or more afterwards. sits upon them, and anybody to be sent back is sent back as near as may be on the same ship, or on some other ship, and the cost charged to the vessel that brought him. 316. And also if the master of the ship refuses to- pay the charge then he is noit given clearance ?—I believe so. I have got under my hand the provision about that. " If any master, agent, consignee, or owner of such vessel shall refuse to receive baick on: board the vessel such aliens, or shall neglect to detain., them thereon, or shall refuse or neglect to return them j to the port from which they came, or to pay the cost of their maintenance while on land, such master, agent, consignee, or owner shall be deemed guillty of a mis- demeanour, iand shall be punished by a fine not less than 300| for eaicih -and every offence ; and any such vessel- shall not have any clearance from any port of the- United States while any such fine is unpaid." There may be other clauses in the various Acts, but those are the main penalties. 317. (Chairman.) We shall have to recall you, and ask your assistance again, but is there anything else you wish to go on the note on this point ?—There is- only one point. I think when I was giving t|ie American > statistics I only gave figures as to the arrivals from particular 'countries. I did not give you a series of figures for the total. I do not know whether it ought not to go on the notes, because the numbers before the - Acta were passed restricting immigration and after- wards, might be important. 318. Please summarise them, and give them in the • total ?—I will not give (them for every year. I will give them for periods. The total immigration into the- United 'States inthe year 1885 was 395,000. 319. (Major Evans- Gordon.) Have you , got the re- jections ?—That was before the law of 1891. 320. I thought the law was introduced in 1882 ?___ Yes, but I do not think we have any statistics of it, at* all events in the earlier years. I do not think there was any elaborate administrative machinery. If you , want details about the administration of the law of 1882:: I should' have to inquire further. 321.; (Chairman.) What is the next to 1885 In 1891 I will give the next figure, because that was the year of the law. It had risen to 560,000. In 18S2 it was 579,000, and then comes a great drop. I must give separate years now. In 1893 it was 439,000, in 1894 it w&s 285,000, in 1895 it was 258,000. It rose a little* ■ to 343,000 in 1896. Then it went back to 230,000 in 1897. It was 229,000 in 1898, it was 31^,000 i in 1899, and now comes -the great increase to 448,000 in 1900, and 488,000 in 1901. The thing I want to point out is that there was a great falling off just after the passage of the Immigration Acts of 1891 and 1893, but I should like, if I may, to guard against the assumption i that more than a small percentage of it was due to 1 'those; Acts* As a matter of faict immigration into this - .country showed the same falling off, and there was a tremendous, collapse of industry in the United States . in 1893 and 1894. "322. Would you rather-,attribpte the great, increase • now to the briskness of labour demand ?-r-Yes, I should think so. 323. It looks like it?-—Yes, but there is little doubt1 the 1891 Act produced some effect, at least for a time. ,324i Can you give us the rejections during those years rr-You shall have a series of them from 1891. ■ 325; (Major Evans-Gordon.) The law really was not „ in force until 1893:?—The;present la'w was hot in -force. .MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 15 _I should not think you could trace any effect of the law -of 1891 until 1892 or 1893, because the statistics go by fiscal years. What you mean by 1892 in the United •^States is the year ending June. 326. (Chairman.) Would your return as to rejections Mshow at all the nationalities of persons rejected ?—Yes. 327. So you oould show British subjects rejected ?— Mr. H. LL Yes, Smith. 328. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have we not got them ^ Apr 1902* here ?—You have British subjects coming direct from the ^ United Kingdom, but if a British subject went from another place you would not have them there. SECOND DAT. Monday, 28th April, 1902. present : The Eight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Lord Rothschild. The Hon Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Mr. Arnold White, 329. (Major Evans Gordon.) Before we go into the -evidence, I should like to ask you what you know .generally about this question and your connection with it?—In answering that question I should like to say, in the first instance, that I am not posing before the Royal Commission as an authority on any single point on which I propose to give evidence. I could name many men who could speak with much greater authority and much greater knowledge on every single .point on which I am going to speak, but my interest and my public action in regard to the alien problem began in 1884. I was then interested and engaged in a study of the social condition of the inhabitants of East .and South London, and especially of the emigration problem. These enquiries were embodied in a book called "The Problems of a Great City," published in 1886. I found that although emigration from the agri- •• cultural districts of England depleted the rural vil- lages, they supplied the great city with efficient manual labourers required in heavy works of construction, and thus mingled the blood of strong and healthy people with the anaemic residents who were born in the streets. • On the other hand, I found that the alien immigration from abroad, if the evidence that is available is ' credible, was a national evil for seven reasons ; first, • because it depressed the Englishman's standard of com- fort; impaired their physical efficiency, by exposing them to a competition to which they were unsuited by ♦diet or housing customs; lowered the wages of un- skilled women and labourers; raised rents; enlarged the area of and established the sweating system. I am - speaking now of the evidence of 1886. I am not saying "what is now the case. 330. (Chairman-) No, you are saying what you found in 1886?—What I thought I found in 1886. The sixth reason was exclusive dealing, and, lastly, their • dogged refusal to assimilate through intermarriage, thus removing alien immigration of Russian sub- jects from the class to which belong the Huguenots • of the 17th and the Flemings of the 16th century. In i each of the six years subsequent to 1884, I paid annual visits to South Africa for the purpose *of planting small colonies of English labourers and artisans, among the Dutch population of the Cape Colony. The practical absurdity of exporting • or helping to export, British bone and sinew from the rural districts, and from London, only to see them replaced by foreigners of doubtful value, was thus forced upon my mind. During the intervals of my - visits to the Cape, I attempted to raise public interest in the question of alien immigration in London, with the view of stopping the influx of undesirables, until, < at last, the two Committees on Sweating and Alien Immigration were appointed in 1888. Invited to assist • those Committees, and under the belief th&t legislation would follow, I provided them, at my own cost, with - much of theevidence for restriction. Over 150 witnesses "were supplied; but «$. ©f them were not examined. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Yallance, Esq. called; and Examined. Mr. , . , T . . , A. White. No action was taken, mainly, I think, owing to my own - want of real knowledge of the subject, because the real 28 Apr. 1902, facts were not brought out. I should add that a Society 21- for the Suppression of the Immigration of Destitute Aliens, formed in 1886, was organised and financed mainly by Lord Dunraven and myself. I also pub- lished a book, called " The Modern Jew," in 1899. In the year 1890, the late Baron Hirsch, who, to the day of his death, disapproved as strongly m the bulk of his co~ -religionists, of my efforts to rouse public opinion in favour of a measure of restriction, invited me to visit Russia, on his behalf, for the purpose of reporting on the con- dition of the Hebrew subjects of the Czar, and, later, of negotiating with the Russian Ministers for such. • relaxations in' the Russian system, and for such regula- tions, as would enable distressed Jews, some of whom were then coming to this country, to avail themselves of Baron Hirsch's plan of planting colonies in Argentina. Glad to have the opportunity of visiting the alien in his home, I accepted the commission. Five times I visited Russia with this object, and finally I obtained the Czar's signature to an alteration of the law, granting the re- quired permissions. In the course of study and travel in Russia, I quickly discerned how superficial, uncon- vincing, and even irrelevant had been much of the evidence I had placed before the Lords and Commons Committees of 1888 and 1889, and how completely I had mistaken the real gravity of the problem. The essential facts of the case in Russia proved that the restriction of the immigration of destitute aliens into Great Britain is. but the fringe of a larger subject, and is one of greater difficulty and complexity than any other matter of mere local economics. The problem to-day in England, as in Russia, where the centre of gravity lies, is essentially racial and international, although its more obvious and immediate effects are at present, in England, mainly economic. The evidence that the crux of the problem is primarily racial and international, rather than economic and local, is indi- cated by the fact (and I am speaking only of the bulk of the. immigrants now) (1) That orthodox Hebrew immi- grants refuse miscegenation or assimilation, either with the Russians in Russia, with the Arabs in Tunis, or with the English in England, just as rigidly as did their ancestors with the Gentiles in the days of Nehemiah. (2) That this repugnance to ^assimilate either with English or Russians, so far from being con- cealed or denied, is both conscientiously felt and openly expressed by the very flower of the people, and especially by the poorer orthodox Hebrews immigrating into this country, or even by those born in the second or third generation. 331. (Chairman.) What do you mean by the second and third generation ?—The children of the immigrants in the second generation object, as I shall be prepared to prove. 332. I see what you mean. It is after they have come into this country ?—After they have come they do16 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN" iMMIGBATION : '■■■ 'Mt.' not plant as the Huguenots did ; that is my point. A. White. Among the upper and middle classes, i5t must be ad- • mitted that a few mixed marriages Have ia-ken place, 28|»:pjr.- -1902; they are the exceptions, like the conversions of . the' — Hebrews to Christianity. It is a fact that I will under- take to sustain in evidence that the Russian immi- grants, with which the Royal Commission is concerned, holding fast to the faith of their fathers, regard inter- marriage with the English as contaminationj , ancl as- similation, as involving tribal disgrace and religious delinquency. When, later on, the advent of prosperity causes the immigrants, or some of them, or their descendants, to sit loose to the doctrine they brought over with them, their racial proclivities still/continue to exercise restraint on assimilation. The .children of the immigrant still regard the Goyim or Gentiles—a term used for outside nations—as undesirable alliances. The Hebrew literature, both of fact and fiction, sustains this point. This fact is important, because it shows that the increase of the immigrants by birth in England is part of the question of immigration. In the case of the Huguenots and Flemings, and previous refugees, who have enjoyed the right of asylum, and who have created the body of English tradition, firmly established in reference to this right of asylum, the second genera- tion was a negligible element, because, in the course of 30 or 40 years they blended with the native popula- tion. I shall be prepared to show that the second generation of the Italians, who are settled in the neigh- bourhood of Saffron Hill, absolutely blend with the nation. For example, the choir boys of the Anglican " Churches in that neighbourhood are remarkable for .• their beautiful voices, and are the sons, as a rule, of English mothers and Italian fathers, and the Anglo- Saxon element has dominated the Italian parentage, and the children are as English, with certain charac- teristics. of musical ability, as the English by whom they .are surrounded. This assimilation is not the case with the children of the Russian Jewish immigrants. Those who hold fast to their religion—and they are the best, and their religion is the citadel of their nationality—do not blend by inter-marriage with the inhabitants of the country of their adoption. If the Royal Commission should see fit, at an early stage to 0ail Dr. Herzl, the head of International Judaism, they will be in a position to grasp the significance of this pivot fact, the aloofness of the immigrants, in- tensified, as it has been, in recent years, by the growth of national feeling created mainly by the futile and infamous persecutions to which these people have been subjected in Russia and Roumania, I may say that J)r. Herzl enjoys, in international Judaism, the same scrt of position that is occupied by Baron Bleichroeder in reference to the German Jews, by the late Baron Gunsberg in relation to the Russian Jews, and by Rabbi Zadokhan to the French Jews, and by Lord Rothschild in reference to the Hebrew community in England. (3) Other races and other nations are intimately concerned in this enquiry. Germans, Italians, Belgians, ana French take the bread out of the mouths of the native English, just .as cleverly, and no less surely, than the immigrants from. Poland and the 16 provinces of the Russian Pale. But no Italian nor German representa- tive sits on the Royal Commission, nor, as far as I am aware, is interested in the .enquiry; and the reason why no European Government has shown interest in this enquiry on behalf of their nationals, similar to that displayed! all over the world, by the whole of the Jewish community, is because they know that the rule for foreigners settled in England is absorption in the first or second generation, when they cease to be a race apart. Impelled by racial tradition, and constrained by religious sanction to keep their blood pure from inter- marriage with the English, the Russian immigrant communities necessarily form islands in the sea of the general population. Whether this formation of islands is good or bad for the nation, I neither affirm nor deny ; but cogent evidence can be produced to establish the fact, if it be challenged, that the immigrants in question belong to a non-assimilating race, and that the so-called Anglicisation of the Russian immigrants is mainly superficial Anglicisation. The growth of nostalgia for the Hebrew State of Zion, which the saintliest, no less than the ablest and noblest characters among them and their co-religionists expect to find in Palestine, is a point to which I shall ask permission to direct the close atten- tion of the Royal Commission. Now, in considering the gravity of the problem before the Commission, I respectfully ask them to remember that of the 11,000,000 Jews, who are supposed to be in the world, it is esti- mated that at lea,st 9,000,000 are in a st&'te of servitude - or misery of some Rind that the outbreak of fresh per- secution in Roumania, or in Rtissia, may at any moment, become intolerable ; and that in any case the phfeno« merial fecundity of the Jewish poor, and the extraor- dinarily low death rate among the children in., consequence of the tender care bes towed on them by their - parents, render the outlook for the future more serious than any mere numerical facts that may be presented to < them would possibly convey To arrive, therefore, at any practical conclusion as to the wisdom of asking Parlia- ment to take steps to arrest the immigration com- plained of, the first point to be weighed by the Royal Commission, I venture to submit, is, not that of num- bers, nor of the habits, nor of the occupations of these immigrants, but the fact that, good, bad, or indifferent, the orthodox immigrants belong to a race and cling to- a community that prefers to remain aloof from the main * stream of our national life, by shunning inter-marriage with Anglo-Saxons. Inter-marriage is the most- powerful, if it is not the only solvent of racial distinc- tion. I may be permitted, perhaps, to point out here that in St. Helena there have been negro families - resident there for 200 years. Their accent, manners, food, and characteristics are apparently; purely English, if you shut your eyes ; but the moment you open your eyes you find that 200 years in St. Helena have not in. any degree changed the racial type. I am not in- stituting that as a comparison, but as an illustration of the obduracy of racial type. 333. (Chairman.) Did they inter-marry 2—No. They would be glad to inter-marry with the white women, but the whites of course look upon it as infamy. It is the other way here. This centre fact of the Jewish aloof- ness carries with it two consequences. Firstly, it is im- possible for anybody to present fairly the case# for re- striction, and for amending the law without citing evi- dence as to characteristics of the Russian immigrants which, relating either to- the tenets of their faith or peculiarities of their race, affect their neighbours in this country. This evidence is indispensable in order to show the quality of the immigrants, and that many of them are undesirables, in the case of some because so far from representing the bulk of their race, their morality is defective, and their habits pestilential ; others because their virtues such as industry, stamina and capacity to* thrive on diet inadequate for English artizans prevent the native born English from competing directly on equal terms with them, or from maintaining the minimum standard of physical efficiency. I will not interrupt the main line of my evidence on that point, but I am exceedingly .anxious that the Royal Commis- sioners will allow me to put in what is now scientifically established as the minimum cost of the food necessary to maintain a man in moderate ■ work in a state of physical efficiency. The reason, of that is this, that the physical efficiency of the immigrants can be maintained at a much lower cost than the physical efficiency of the native born ; and just as a base coin, if introduced into the currency, drives out a superior coin, so a race that is capable of working and living on a lower diet, and of sleeping five or ten in .• a room, will drive out for all practical purposes of com- petition a race that cannot live without beefsteaks and beer, and cannot live except under the sanitary condi- tions which have been laid down by the law of England. 334. I think I would avoid calling in the analogy of the base coin. Your proposition equally stands with- out it ?—My last wish is to say anything which is not necessary. 335. You see what I mean. The proposition is a very - sound and necessary one, but we need not say that cheapness represents baseness ?—I will withdraw it if I may. The last wish I have is to say anything that is ; not absolutely necessary. 336. Any suggestion you are good enough to make as - to what evidence you think necessary to be called, to < Major Gordon or to myself, shall be favourably con- sidered. If you suggest any evidence should be called to carry out any proposition of yours, full consideration shall be given to your wishes on the subject?1—-I ami much obliged. I was making the point that anybody who undertakes to present or give evidence on the whole • case for restriction must in the first place necessarily point out conditions as to* both race and faith, which bear uponthe problem in England ; and, secondly, it follows that whoever frames an indictment against the quality of some of these poor creatures is laid open t© >MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 17 the dreaded charge of anti-semitism. Nobody can Jewish emancipation would not only swamp the Russian Mr. •,. ,.jbone$tily: .do it without being called anti-semitic all over State as it now exists, but would be inevitably followed Ai White. ,;;ithe world, thus gaining a reputation which in these days by . Jewish ascendancy. Repression of the Jews on ^ spells ruin to most people. In spite of one feature strictly mediaeval lines is accordingly the logical result. VT' > . of the situation being the admitted defects of Another result is that England receives the bulk of her the immigrants when they are particularised, un- immigrants in a pitiable state of destitution, misery, restricted immigration is still defended by the whole and superstition, which not being due to- any fault of •Jewish community, %nd its supporters, not because the their own, makes them inefficient for our national pur- «©vils ill question are imaginary, but because they are poses, solely because Russia grinds the Jewish popula- identified with the members of the Hebrew community. tion to desperation and misery. That is the main point ■The,prison diet and the prison cells of England present I want to make about this thing—that it is not due to the .undreamed of luxury to a very considerable portion of people, but it is due to the special treatment they have the inhabitants of such a city as Berdicheff and Homel. had in the country from which they come. 337. (Chairman.) Where is that?—That is in the 340. Does that apply to Roumania, too ?—Absolutely. Government of Kieff, in Russia. The disinclination of 34L The same conciition of things f—Yes. *every Englishman worthy or the name to harass the N _TT _ __ . , _ . persecuted Russian Hebrew, or to run counter to en- , (^airmanS) We fully appreciate the value of lightened Jewish opinion by undertaking the invidious what you say, but we are_confined to_ finding a remedy task of advocating restriction, makes it difficult for a ^or ^ie s^e things. Do you wish to dwell at any . mere private person to obtain trustworthy evidence : and peat length upon the causes which send the people here, it has left the case for restriction mainly in the hands because this Commission ^cannot interfere in any way of violent and unreasonable men, who neither appre- VV1^ Russia s acts. I calculated, my Lord, that my -ciate the enormous weight of the reasons advanced for evidence will take one hour and a quarter ; and if I am leaving things as they are nor refrain from exaggerating permitted to give it I will gladly give it, but if a portion the evils that exist, and who, therefore, weaken the cas- of my evidence is not received I shall be reluctantly for restriction by exaggeration. But for one dominant obliged to withdraw the rest, because this omission •consideration, nobody who realises the chivalrous posi- would destroy the argument entirely. iion adopted by the Jewish community, and by the anti- 343. Pray do not be under a misunderstanding. We restrictionists in this country, could take part in any are attending all of us with the greatest possible interest movement for excluding undesirables, or even for regu- to everything you say, but I was only pointing out that lating the influx with a view to its diminution. That we have no power to inquire as to what ought to be the -consideration, however, exists in the fact that unless conduct of Russia. That is all I ask you to bear in action is taken by the Government, it is to be hoped mind %—I hope your Lordship will not think me unduly with the consent and the assistance of the Jewish com- persistent in referring to this point, but when it comes to munity, history may repeat itself by unreflecting people the question of remedies (and that is in the reference), it who thinking themselves injured by the influx, may take is impossible to consider the question of remedies wit li- the matter into their own. hands, probably after inflam- out considering this one point which I have made, that matory appeals from demagogues, and anti-semites of the people are treated in a certain way in their own , "the Continental type. The inference to be drawn, if such country. a danger exists, is that evidence is imperatively needed Certainly, and by all means proceed, but on the n ^ ^ immigrants, and as to their 0£ Qommission I only wish to safeguard our- •quantity. Inquiry as to the moral and p ysica selves by saying, as we proceed, that we could not inter- v qualities of the immigrants should, therefore be of such fere with the action of forei nations. Having made ■•a nature as not to wound the ]ust susceptibilities of the & . gtatement as to 0UT position, will you please go on, community to which they belong; but, on the other . -r, ^ 7 T(. T . , Tiand, I strongly contend that such examination as to the (Major Evans Gordon.) _ f I may ^tiy so, it seems to character and quality of the immigrants should not be me that the causes which send the people here are very omitted, as it was in 1888 and 1889, merely because material. We ought to find out what they are which they happen to be protected by a powerful community. send them here 'Let me be perfectly clear about this point. I am not 345. (Chairman.) Yes, but we cannot carry our ( -saying this question of quality was not examined in remedy internally into the action of foreign countries. 1889, because they happened to belong to a powerful Will you please proceed with your evidence ?—The •community; but I protest against this question of policy of repression accords fully with Russian public quality being omitted to-day from the fact of their be- opinion, which is far more real and effective than is longing to a powerful community. I am not suggesting generally supposed in this country. Emancipation of "there was any influence brought to bear in 1888 or 1889, the sufferers pent up in the Pale is accordingly regarded or anything of the kind, but simply that the question in Russia as a measure out-side the arena of practical of quality was not exhaustively gone into. politics. Such a compliment of fear was never yet paid Now, the next point of importance is that these immi- by the tulers of one nation to the intellect and tenacity ■v grants are subjected to special treatment in their own ^ e poorest of their subjects. The economic conse- -country where.they are herded in areas inadequate tor quences of Russian policy towards the Jews is that the mere existence, where they are oppressed from their stress of want is continually exerted m their miserable birth to their grave by ingeniously cruel devices for homes, and its effect being cumulative, is also cbntri- •stunting their minds, and starving their bodies. The fug'aV and ^ « that which has chiefly caused the ap- reason for this is the belief which is shared bv the pomtment of this Commission. The motives of self- educated and uneducated classes alike in Russia, that if preservation which render the repression and persecu- Russia were to open the door of the Pale, and tion of the Jew a national necessity m Russia are re- give the Jewish subjects of the Czar equality mforced by the greatest intolerance of every kind. before the law, not ten years would pass away Orthodox Russians regard the Hebrew faith as an insult < "before every post of importance in the Empire to their own, the presence of Hebrews as a menace to i would either be occupied or controlled by members of Russian unity, and their ideal as an outrage on Kussian that race, while the manual labourer and the moujiks national life. I may state from personal knowledge that : -would become the serfs of Semitic money-lenders. The popular notion m Russia that J ewish influence there justification in Russian eyes of Monsieur Pobiedonoszief's is universally evil is not borne out by facts. According to -policy is to be found in the universal conviction the suppressed Government statistics submitted to the among educated and uneducated Russians that national Pahlen Commission, and afterwards withdrawn because -self-preservation requires the oppression of the Jewish ^ie conclusions were favourable to the Jews, it was •subjects of the Czar. It is their belief that if Russia found that the Jews of the Pale were less criminal, had -were to open the door of the Pale--fewer arrears of land tax, possessed more cattle pei • * // 11 • 1 -i* -n , £ head, were more sober, and supported only half as many 338. When you say their belief you mean that 01 honses 0f ill-fame per hundred thousand of inhabitants the supporters of the minister ?—The ministry. ^ as the Russians in the 12 adjacent provinces. Ac- 339. (Major Evans Gordon.) Russian State opinion cording to Russian statistics, published in 1897, the generally ?•—Russian State and general opinion. I am number of illegitimate children born in the various ,f not talking of exceptions, but taking the broad public churches and creeds for the year 1888 were only 2*9 for opinion of Russia, it is that if equality were granted the Jews, 26*3 for the orthodox, 34*6 for the Roman throughout the Empire, not 10 years would pass before Catholics, and 38*8 for the Protestants. The point I am ..... every post, of importance in the Empire would be making here is that we do not get here a fair average in occupied or controlled by members of the Jewish race. quality of the Jews, but we get the worst, or some of the Slav patriots hold with intense conviction the view that worst. Such investigations as I was able to make in 0144 U18 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. Russia over a period of 13 months substantiated these A, While, conclusions. Notwithstanding the extraordinary dis- -- nQ abilities imposed on them, the general domestic and 2 pr. civic virtues, their patience under suffering, their great care for their women and children modified the limited view, and the superficial opinons I had based on the qualities of the Russian Jewish immigrants, produced before the Committees of 1888-9. The fact is we do not get a fair average of the quality of the Russian Jews-— wo get the worst. If a delegation from this Commis- sion were to visit Russia to-day they would find the - following facts as to the immigrants who come here. They would find an overcrowded, but intellectual, popu- lation, subsisting on less than a bare sufficiency of food, competing with one another, and with the Christians; that they are multiplying like butterflies ; that they are the objects of official hostility, and yet remain loyal to their faith—a very fine quality. They would find that the enforcement of the May laws has not solved the question ; and that the only remedy, heroic as it is just, would be either to annul the Jewish question as such, and to admit the Jews to equal rights, or to migrate the Jewish population; and that is where something may be done. They would find, thirdly, that there is no chance of the emancipation of the Russian Jews so long as successive Ministers of the Interior continue to act on the theory that contact be- tween the moujik and the Jew would destroy national life. Fourthly, they would 'find that the situation of the Israelites in the Pale, always lamentable, is now intolerable; and that in the absence of help from outside nothing but massacre could aggravate or pesti- lence relieve the condition of things actually prevail- ing there. They would find that the immense majority of the Jewish population are destitute to an extent in- credible in England, and that but for their sobriety, family feeling, resignation, and the hygienic rules pre- scribed by their religion, they could not survive priva- tions which already strain their vitality to breaking point. They would also find that typhus has for some time existed in the cities of the Pale, and that the spread of this pestilence to I ondon is not beyond the limits of possibility. Seventhly, they would find that the over-crowding of the Jewish population, and its effect on over-crowding in Stepney, may be imagined by the condition of the city of Berdicheff. According; to the statistics of Souravski, the mean number of Christian inhabitants during the 40 years in one dwelling in Ber- dicheff was from 410 to 510, while of the J ews at Ber- dicheff it was 2,287 ; that is to say, the over-crowding of Jews at Berdicheff is five times as great as that of the orthodox population of the province. Such over-crowd- ing constitutes a formidable and real danger to the public health of Europe; and the capacity for the over- crowding constitutes a positive bounty upon the com- petitive value of the Russian Jew when he arrives in this country. 34^. I do not quite follow that ?—A man who has been accustomed to sleep 12 in a room all his life is in a much better position to take work, for which he is paid 8d., working 14 hours a day, than a man who is accus- tomed to 400 cubic feet of space, which is the law of England. 347. I see what you mean now. You mean competi- tive value ?—Yes. It is my base coin allusion again. I have made a very short summary of the May laws, and it will not take a minute to read them if I may do so. " All the Russian immigrants who come here are subject to these laws. They are forbidden to settle outside the towns or townlets with the exception of the Jewish agricultural colonies, which I also visited, which contain 30,000 people alone. They are forbidden to hold mortgages on real property, to become lessees of landed estate, or to accept powers of attorney, enabling; them to deal with such property. They are forbidden to carry on business on a Sunday or on Christian holidays, and as the holidays in Russia are numerous, they weigh heavily on a population whose sacred days are dif- ferent from 'those of Russia. They are refused the benefits of institutions and hospitals, even if founded and supported by their own money. They are borne down by exceptional taxes. They are constantly ex- posed to the exactions of the police and to the robberies of peasants, and to vexatious and humilia- ting restrictions of every kind. They ^are debarred froim access to the educational 'system, with the excep- tion of a handful of scholars, who are invariably the ablest pupils in the school. They are excluded from the Navy. They are not allowed to become officers in the Army, although the conscription levied on the Jewish community is on a far higher scale than on the* orthodox. The desperate courage of the Jewish com- panies at the Sihipka Pass was testified to by the late- General AnnenkofJ on many occasions in my presence. The alleged amelioration to a few compositors in St. Petersburg does not touch the condition of the in- habitants of the Pale. So much for the report of what exists in Russia to-day. That the state of misery in the Pale is greater than that prevailing in Armenia, is shown by the disinclination of the Armenians to come under Russian rule. The J ews of the Pale have made no attempt at insurrection, and they have firmly declined to free themselves from outrage by hypo- critical apostacy. A visit to the town of Berdicheff" admits the traveller into a City of Dreadful Night. It is one dead level of gloom, decay, and silence. The neglected streets are almost impassable from water- holes. Ordure lies untouched, festering in the sun or washed by the frequent rains. The very animals are afiliclted by the blight that hangs over the town. The droskies and carts are falling to pieces, the rib& of the horses stand out. Emaciated dogs prowl about in search of food. The trade of the town is unable- to afford sustenance to more than a portion of the- population. In Berdicheff 30 or 40 manufacturers might make a living. The number exceeds 500. Wage® run as low as 4d. a day." 348. Is that for adults ?—Yes ; that is for adults. " Early marriage is the only solace to distress which seems to be ever growing in intensity. Broken lattices,, unpainted doors, peeling stucco*, tell of the lack of hope. The filthy inn reeks with the stench of neglect. The only ray of hope comes from the synagogue and the doctor. Even the hospitals are converted into engines of oppression. At Homel I saw 18 men and women suffering and dying together. Oases of cancer, puerperal fever, B right's disease, meningitis, fracture, amputation, tumour, and fever lay hustled in dirty cubicles, irrespective of age or sex. The police had confiscated the Jewish contributions to the: hospitals, which would have preserved decency, and might have soothed suffering. My point is the conditions under which these people have been living all their lives,, and in which they arrive here. I am going to ask permission to read here1 a short extract fiom & report made to Baron de Hirsoh on the subject of the condition of the people. It is quite short, and it practically contains all I want to say on that sub- ject." I had the advantage of an autograph letter front M. Pobiedonoszief, describing my mission, and the objects of the Baron de Hirscih. I also had official credentials from the Minister of the Interior, and every possible assistance from the heads of the Jewish community in St. Petersburg. I found the higher officials very frank and courteous. They, with a few exceptions, took their colour from St. Petersburg; and I attach, therefore, more importance to the views of Tchinovniks not so highly placed as to come under the direct influence of the capital. These latter almost invariably spoke the Whole1 truth. The others told part of the truth, which, after all, is what jne expects- from a witness personally interested in a case. Every- where I went I met the most respectable Jews, and I also tried to see the worst and poorest. By this means. I not only sifted the Government evidence- in the Israelite sieve, but also was able to weigh the value of the Hebrew evidence in the Government scales. I examined over 200 witnesses, whose testimony, to- gether with my own careful observations, lead ine to the following conclusions : Assuming two things, the first being that the Jewish population of Russia amounts to 5,000,000; the second, that the Jews I have seen being; a fair sample of the Jews I have not seen. I do not consider more than 20 per cent, of the adult males at the present time to be physically fit to bear the strain inseparable from a settlement in a new country under strange conditions, and with physical hard- ships to endure. As a whole, the sedentary Jews are physically inferior to the sedentary Russians. Indeed, I can remember no country in Europe the town popu- lation of which does not excel in physique the poor- Russian Jew townsman. When, however, I contrast the Jew townsmen settled by the Emperor Nicholas in the Government of Kherson, the difference is amazing. I found them forming an active, well set-up, sun-burnt, muscular, agricultural population, marked by all the characteristics of a peasantry of the highest character. There are 30,000 of these people. So far as I could learn from the neighbouring proprietors— Ru^ians who employed them—they have no vice, unless an earl^ improvident, and fruitful marriage canMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 19 l)e. deemed a vice. Besides these agriculturists there is a population of 300,000 men who are engaged in .arduous manual labour in or aibouit the towns. As instances of this olasis I may cite the 10,000 labourers -and artisans in Berdiciheff, the wharf labourers of 'Odessa, the corn porters of Nicolaieff, and the 'agri- cultural labourers of Kremenschug, of whom ait least 4,000 are hired out at harvest time by neighbouring proprietors. All these men are fit for colonisation, though all are not equally fit. But, as a seit-off against the physical inferiority to which reference has been made, two elements must be taken into consideration in any analysis of the worth of the Jew as a colonist, -and which, in my opinion, more than compensate for .has poverty in muscle. The first of these elements is the highly-nervous temperament of the average Jew, which is not only the source of all the .accusations of cowardice brought against him, but at the same time gives him an astounding capacity to sustain exer- tion for lengbhy periods of time, impossible to the stolid beer-drinking Englishman or equally self-in- dulgent Russ. This quality of "last" is an atonement nature has miade to the Jew for denying him a coarser "fibre and a larger build. The second element in the problem is a factor the value of which can only be •assessed by those who have actually undergone the hoart-breakiing task of planting poor unemployed ZEnglishmen on unemployed colonial acres. I refer to the high moral tone of the average Jew. With one •exception (Admiral Zelenoi, of Odessa) the whole of my evidence points to the fact that the Jew fit for colonisation—I am speaking all through of the ■physically fit here—is habitually temperate ; he rarely drinks alcohol, rarely smokes, he is a good husband, "father, son; he is not addicted to the use of filthy or blasphemous language, he is patient in trouble, and is most industrious in his work. Faults he un- doubtedly has, but they are not of a nature that «enter seriously into the question of colonisation, pro- Tided the dilemma of " work or die" is 'sternly pre- sented to him, and provided he is not surrounded T>y a well-to-do population of an alien faith 'and of another race. So- far as my observations go, the Russian Jew and his children have not enough to eat. "Until _ I see what good, nourishing food will do for him, it is impossible to say what proportion of th* tidult male population will eventually be capable of outdoor work. At present dejection clouds the life of the whole Jewisih population." 349. (Chairman.) That was written, I suppose, in relation to the scheme of Baron Hirsch in the Argen- tina Colony?—Yes. One point I infer from the facts -I ventured to give the Committee are that the Jewish population of Russia are driven by Russian policy into habits and employments whioh render them 'thoroughly undesirable immigrants to any over-popu- lated country. However one may pity and admire ' the persecuted Hebrews of the Rale, it is not necessary to admit (his qualification as a desirable immigrant to Great Britain. The next point is this : Compared with the normal ^ existence of Jews in Russia, the diet .and accommodation of an English workhouse is luxu- rious and palatial. When, therefore,' the notorious generosity .and oompas'siion of the Jewish community "in England are increasingly .advertised in the cities of the Pale, the more adventurous and not the moist desirable specimens look to London charities and the Jewish Board of Guardians as offering a way of escape from an intolerable lot. It is a mistake to think that the bulk of the immigrants repairing to London come here because they are the victims of specific acts of perse- cution. ^ The form of persecution that does produce the main stream of immigrants is indirect, and consists in the ■prevailing conditions of life, which tend to become automatically -harder by. the phenomenal natural fecundity of the race in Russia. The bulk of the Jews in Russia lead sedentary lives. The immi- grants, accordingly, are sedentary, although this defect is partly counterbalanced by the wonderful stamina, characteristic of the Jewish race, enabling them to -sustain prolonged exertions on a minimum of nourish- ing food. It undoubtedly does enable them to sustain prolonged exertions, on a minimum of nourishing food to an extent which is quite surprising to those wiho look at them for tihe first time. The fecundity of the Jews m Russia renders increased immigration to this country not probable, but inevitable. The increase , vhf Jewish, population in Russia cannot be deter- mined by the figures of the birth rate alone. They mu£t be compared with the annual number of deaths, and the ratio between the two established. The result is remarkable, as calculated by Mr. E. J. Dillon, 6144 namely, that for every hundred Jews who died the Mr. number born was 171*4, against only 138*14 for the A. White. orthodox Christians. - 350. Where was that?—They are published in the Apr- 1902. report of the Warsaw Statistical Commission;, volume 12. 351. In relation to what country does that refer?— Russia. I am speaking exclusively of Russia. Taking the cities of European Russia by themselves, the official statistics show tihab the nett annual increase of Christians of all denominations in Russian towns amounts to 17 .souls, whereas among the Jews of towns and cities it is exactly 71*4. Therefor© the Hebrew population in the cities of European Russia is in- creasing and multiplying every year four times more rapidly than the Christians. In Roumania the same phenomenon is observable. In the city of Warsaw, in Poland, the statistics sihow that the Jewish element is better equipped for the struggle for existence than any of tihe Christian sects, inasmuch as it increases, even in Poland, in the ratio of 30 Jews to 15 Christians. See report of the Warsaw Statistical Commission, volume 12, page 126. 352. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And the space in which these people hiave to live does not expand ?—No ; it does not expand. The important part played by the self-sacrificing care taken by Jewish parents of their children is shown in the following figures. Of 1,000 children, during the first year of their lives, there died in Moscow 391 ; in Breslau, 314 ; in St. Petersburg 257; in Dresden, 251; in Lemberg, 216; and in Warsaw, 187. In other words, the more Jews in a city, the smaller the death rate among children. In Warsaw the Jews form 33 per cent, of the population. In Cracow and Lemberg, 28 per cent.; in Berlin and Breslau, 5 per cent.; in St. Petersburg and Moscow, 2 per cent. The 130,000,000 of the Russian people have the highest birth-rate of all the people in Europe, but of all the races that make up the Russian Empire, the Jewish element is by far the most fruitful, the members of which are increasing in the cities and town of the Pale four times more rapidly than their Christian fellow-subjects. At the same time the Russians who are working hard and successfully at the assimilation of the non-orthodox almost completely fail to assimilate or convert the Jewish element. Only 800 Jews were ostensibly con- verted to orthodoxy, against 25,637 Roman Catholics. The annual increase of the Jews amounts to about 80,000 souls, while the area in which they are compacted does not expand by one inch, Siberia now being closed to the Jewish element. They increase at the rate of 80,000, and I calculate there are about 5,800,000 in Russia to-day, and probably that is an under-statement. 353. (Chairman.) You say they increase at the rate of 80,000 a year ?—Yes. 354. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I should like to ask you with regard to the information you got in Russia generally. I understand you got it from Russian Minis- ters and the Russian authorities?—Among others. I had an opportunity of discussing very fully with three of the Ministers of the Interior, and the last time I visited Russia was in 1897, when I saw Mr. Goremykine and had the subject thoroughly out with him. I also saw Vorontzoff Daschkoff, and Mr. Dournavo, the Minis- ter of the Interior in 1891, and the Head of the Secret Police, his namesake, Dournavo, and the Minister of Finance. 355. Was the state of Russian opinion generally with regard to the emigration of these people, to the effect that it must go on—that that is the solution to get rid of the pressure within the Pale?—Of course they are delighted to see England do it. They laugh at us for receiving them. They are very much amused at our hospitality and delighted. 356. In fact, they are pleased that we should take such a burden off their shoulders ?—Naturally. 357. Then your view is based upon the two main facts that the migratory population is enormously increasing, and the space in which they live is rigid and does not increase, that the emigration must go on—that there must be an outlet?—That is one of the reasons why it must go on. There ar© many others. 358. Has there been any alteration in the Russian law which would favour the emigration of Jewish people?— They have abolished the cost of passports, which used to be 12 roubles. They have also forgiven a very large amount of the arrears of taxes and have facilitated the emigration of Jews. C 220 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr.: A. WKite. 28 ApM902. 359. In fact, they have encouraged it?—They have encouraged it. 360. Do you consider from your inquiries there that the causes which drive or impel these poor people to leave that country are of a permanent or a temporary character?—Of a permanent and strengthening charac- ter. 361. Now will you go on with your general evidence ?— - The next point I want to ask your consent to place "before the Royal Commission is this: I have only dealt with the effect of the restrictive laws of Russia on in- ducing this emigration, but, in adition to that ex- pulsive force operating in Russia, there is a magnetism in England, and I want to' describe what that magnetism consists, of. In the first place there are the great Jewish charities. . There are 64 Metropolitan charities, dealing with £116,509. Upon many of these I would venture to make no criticism, but some of them, I venture frankly to say, from an English point of view, are objectionable. I regard, as objectionable the endowment of £120,000 by the Baroness Hirsch for the use of foreigners in Lon- don. A foreigner, outside the country, leaves £120,000 to an institution in London, the only effect of which can be to bring in population, and, if it is proved that they are undesirable, this £120,000 is an undesirable magnet. Then again I object to the loans and I object to them on this ground, that these people, equipped with the intellectual and physical qualities which I have described, come over here and with the aid of the wealthy and benevolent members of the community, virtually receive these loans, nominally as charity, really as bounty, for the puprpose of what is both asserted and de- nied, of competition with the native inhabitants. At all events, they get their foot in here by the aid of these loans, and it seems to me the onus of proof is on the other side to show that they should come in and not upon us, who suggest that they should not be allowed to come in. Then another element in the magnetism is the free institutions of England. 362; (Chairman.) You do not want to get rid of those, surely ?—Perhaps you will be good enough to allow me to say what I do want to get rid of. I certainly do want to get rid of such free institutions as involve the prosti- tution of English women and the misery of English men. Most certainly I do. The English laws and struc- ture of society are more beneficial to creditors who are more; intelligent than their debtors. Costly unintelli- gible law favours the prosperity of clever poor immi- grants, all of whom desire to rise, and all of whom seek profit rather than wages. That is a most important point. They earn wages, but their ambition is profit, not -wages. England, although the conduit pipe to South Africa and to the United States of America, where some restrictions are imposed on immigration, receives with- out- question all the immigrants, and therefore neces- sarily obtains both from Gentile and from Jewish, the worst and not the best. The third point of attraction in England is' the demand for cheap labour. The manu- facturers -and those who profit by sweating naturally favour immigration. It brings them their income. Hence, in certain streets in the East End 95 per cent, of the inhabitants are,now foreigners. I am not prepared with evidence, but it is most important to take evidence on the question of whether there is an organised traffic of this sort. There is a prima facie case for inquiry. I would like to put in a paper, a translation from the Haschulamit, " Wanted, a number of good coat basters for policemen's; uniforms. Good wages," I acquired this| since the last Commission sat, although it'is of an earlier date, showing at all events, that the advertising was going on < then. -The advertisements in Polish papers—:— ; 363. Is that a; newspaper published in Poland ?—I can- not say for certain. 364. It is not an English paper ?-—I came across the paper the other day among my papers, and I brought it here now, hoping that it would be inquired into. 365. Will you read the translation again?—" Wanted, a number 6f good coat basters for policemen's uniforms. Good wages." ' 366. What language is it in?—It is in, Yiddish, jand it is printed in a. Hebrew paper. 367.-(Sir Kenelm Digby.). Was- not that given in evi-r d ence before^ ?—I looked for it, but I have not found it. 368. Norman.) Is what you have already read a complete, translation, of the Hebrew ?—I am not a Hebrew scholar, but I am told it is a complete translar- tion. Then the fourth point of the magnetism on thia side is the existence of the Poor Law. It is not that much recourse is had to the Poor Law, although of course* we have figures, but the knowledge that in England no man in the last resort need starve is a powerful lever- Becourse to Poor Law is increasing. The St. George's- in--the~East Board of Guardians' report to the Board of Trade on February 22nd, 1902, that 776 destitute aliens, were relieved from the rates in that Union alone. So it can no longer be urged, as it was in 1888, that they do< not come on the rates, and if they are coming on the- rates, they will come more heavily on the rates. Then, the fifth point is that if they do not obtain charity or loans or Poor Law or other assistance, in the last resortv they can always be converted. The income of the Lon- don Society for Promoting Christianity among the Jews- is £40,000 a year, and there are two others, of which, the money is at the service of convertible Hebrews.. These are few, and mostly of bad character. The- societies for the promoting of Christianity among the- Jews are to all intents and purposes one of the magnetic- effects presented by English social life. 369. (Chairman.) With regard to that advertisement from the paper you handed in, Lord Rothschild says, that paper was published in London. The use of the word "policeman" would rather indicate that. Just to clear that up, Sir Kenelm Digby hands in a volume of the evidence given on the 5th June, 1888, which contains, that advertisement which you say you found. The ad- vertisement emanates from Messrs. Hibbert and Co.,. who were the Government contractors for Post Office- clothing, and this is the translation of it: " Wanted, & number of good coat basters for policemen's uniforms. Good wages." You handed that in yourself ?—I had for- gotten it. 370. This is the passage, "Where is this paper pub- lished r It is all in the Hebrew language? (A) It is. printed at the publishing offices, 82, Brick Lane, Lon- don. It is published in the Hebrew character." That- is what it is, evidently ?—I only brought it for inquiry, nothing more. The last point that offers attraction to the immigrant is the growth since 1888 of the 79 Zionist societies which foster the national idea,. The extra- ordinary feeling of desire to return to Palestine is so strong as to be one of the great new features which ha^ arisen during the last few years, and the effect of these Zionrrt societies, which encourage the Jewish nationality,,. I suggest to be one of the attractive points to the immi- grants, and one of the attractions ol the immigrants to this country. 371. Is there a passage to Zion through England ? What, is the magnetic attraction to England to the Zionists ?—■- Because here they can organise them perfectly freely, and it is absolutely open to them to follow the double nationality. They could not do that, as far as I know, in any other country, but here they are absolutely free- to organise what they like without interference by the police and without inspection or registration of an inquisitorial kind. 372. Is there an objection in Russia to their being, organised ?—rThere is no possibilty of organisation. 373. Are there no societies ?—Nothing of the kind without police permission. 374. There is greater freedom here?—Much greater- freedom. All the artels or unions of the workmen in Russia are strictly under the supervision of the autho- rities. If the Commission decides to go into the quality of the immigrants, I have prepared a list of what I understand these qualities to be under three heads— the good, the doubtful, and the bad. 375. Do you mean the moral or the physical quality ?—- Both. 376. The Commission would think it very material ?—- I suggest that the good characteristics of these immi- grants are their great brain power and shrewdness, their indu^y, temperance, domesticity, and their great capa- city -for low living and high thinking, ambition and emulation, and almost universal desire to shine and get on, and stamina. As regards what they have done for us, they have enormously increased the cheap tailoring; trade?r They have made a great deal of furniture of an inferior kind, and they have made a great many boots,, many of' which are very bad. I admit they have very : greatly increased the ready-made tailoring and other classes of tailoring and boot and other industries. I freely .4^mit it, .but I would? point out that while the virtues, and capacities of these immigrants very largelyMINUTES OF EVIDEftCF. lend -themselves to statistical form, the objections to them and their vices do not. You can reckon how many pairs of trousers a man makes, but you cannot tell how many of these immigrants become money-lenders, for reasons which I will show later 011. So while you can put. in a statistical form the number of coats or trousers you cannot tell how many become money-lenders. 377. Not even now that they are registered ?—No; and I will show you why afterwards. That was a defect in yottr Lordship's Bill, if I may venture to say so. We know how many Israel Zangwills come over, but we do not know how many Isaac Gordons come over; and, as you know, Isaac Gordon was an immigrant in this generation, and not born here. So much for the good points, which I have endeavoured to arrive at fairly. The doubtful points are that they show a solidarity amongst themselves which is unnecessary in this country, and they show a detachment of mind to our national affairs which is undesirable in people who make their homes here. Then they minister to cheapness. Cheap- ness is also a doubtful point which I will not labour. I do not look upon cheapness as such a god as it is some- times believed to be. Another doubtful point is that while they obey the law of the survival of the fittest, what does that mean P The fittest for what ? The fittest to live on conditions which the Englishman and his wife are racially in- capable of satisfying. The man who lives on a straw a day may be; it is quite true, the survivor of the fittest, but it is an unworthy fitness, or at least it is a doubtful fitness. Then they prefer profit to wages. That seems to me a doubtful characteristic. It may be good or bad. It is a matter of opinion. 378. Would you mind just explaining that a little more ? Take these men who work at the tailoring trade and boot trade. That is piece-work. Do you call it profit if it-is piece-work?—Piece-work, of course, is profit. Wages is so much a day. 379. You would call piece-work profit ?—Yes, I would; but what I have in my mind is that all these men are trying to become masters. They are not like an English- man, who will work all his life comparatively contented at 25s. or 28s. a week. They are all looking up, and all intending to become masters, not to take piece-work themselves, but to give out piece-work. That is my point. 380. (Major "Evans-Gordon.) That is a characteristic that is admitted by such authorities, for instance, as Mr. H. S. Lewis in his work onthe subject?—Yes, that is notorious. On all these points, of course, I am pre- pared with evidence. 381. {Chairman.) You do not say at present whether that is an advantage or disadvantage?—No. 382. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But it is a characteristic, and an admitted one?—Yes. They prefer profit to wages. My point is that in this country, highly or- ganised as we are, we want morepeople who will under- take subordinate tasks rather than ambitious people who will want to get to the top. You do not find Jewish carpenters, as a rule.. You find a certain amount of furniture made, it is true. Then you do not find Jewish gardeners or bricklayers, or hewers of wood, or drawers of water. They take light speculative trades, like that of fruit, and so on, where there is profit to be made, and they all aim at getting to the top. Then there is a rapid encroachment on new industries. Thirty years ago the immigrants were comparatively few. I will not labour that; because the Sweating Commission went into it very fully, but since the Sweating Commission they have touched other industries. Hawking has greatly increased, and I attribute that entirely to ,our getting the worst classes, because the hawkers in Russia are practically mendicants and poor creatures and an un- desirable class. Now I come to the bad characteristics. I feel great difficulty in giving this portion of my evidence, because it is certain to be represented as though Is am attacking the race, and I want to make it perfectly clear I am doing nothing of the kind. I am speaking of a certain number of individuals who come over here-' whom I believe to be undesirables, whom, I may say I know to be undesirables, and whom I want to exclude; and I want, therefore, to protest beforehand against being represented- as attacking a race from whom I' personally have received far too many benefits ever to be unjgratoful. Now the first evidence that we are imp6rting? a criminal Jewish population is shown'by the fact that the '■ Government, without rrLentibning the matter in the' House of Commons, are building syna- gogues at Wormwbod Scrubs, Parkhurst, and Penton- ville. I cannot learn that any prison chapels aire being built for Unitarians or for Baptists, who are three times Mr. as numerous as the Jews, or for Independents, or any A. White. of those other Nonconformist sects which do not share -- _ the tenets of the Church of England, or the Roman ° Apr. 1002. , Catholics, or the Wesleyans, which are 'the officially endowed sects at prisons. It is unlikely that these prisons would be built unless they were inhabited. When I procured the putting of a question in the House of Commons on the subject of the inhabitants of these prisons, the member was informed that no information could be given on the subject, because it was not advis- able (I am only giving the drift of the answer) to give the number of criminals belonging to different religious faiths. 383. You used the word synagogue first, and then you spoke of prisons. What was it you meant?—I meant the synagogue in the prison. My point is that informa- tion is wanted about that. 384. Does this affect the alien immigrants ?—Very much. If out of these singularly few alien immigrants as we are told there are you are obliged to put up these synagogues in your prisons, surely there is a prima facie case for keeping them out. 385. But why are they put up for the alien immi- grants more than for the natural Jewish residents?— We never put them up before the alien immigration. increased since 1880. 386. You are rather assuming that they are put up for- alien immigrants?—Then I have put it very awkwardly because all I am trying to do is to suggest that an?,. inquiry should be made as to who the inhabitants of; these synagogues are. 387. (Mr. Alfred Lyiidion.) Yen say it may show that criminal Jews are coming in I do it with ths object of trying to get you to call before you the magistrates and the prison authorities. I make no a assertion, because I do not know; and if I said so, I went too far. 388. (Mr. Norman.) Your point, as I understand it7 . is that you know that the introduction of the synagogue into the prison has been synchronous with the increase' of alien immigrants, and you wish us to inquire if the: increased immigration has caused it?—That is exactly m> point. I shall be very glad to get over this bit of th# evidence. It is just as repugnant to me as it is to any- one else. The next bad point is the character that . the Jewish immigrants obtain for crawling underhand ways. They are not unpopular in certain ways, but they have the reputation among those who are in contact with them of crawling underhand ways. They are not re- markable for crimes of violence. The knifing is not traced to the Jewish immigrants at all, as far as I can get at the facts; but as regards perjury, lying, and cheating, the evidence of the magistrates, I think, will . produce a great effect on the Commission. Now, with re- gard to money-lending, a large number of them adopt money-lending as a means of livelihood, but a very: large number of them trade under Christian aliases.. They take the names of noble families in this country,,. and other names, and they trade as banks or companies,.. so that it is practically impossible to say to what extent • the money-lending profession is followed by the immi- grants, or by the sons of immigrants. The actual facts can only be obtained by a search of the file of registered money-lenders at Somerset House, which. would involve the inspection of several thousand re- turns, and which I submit is beyond the'province of a mere private individual; but I suggest you should inquire what proportion of these registered money- lenders under your Lordship's Act are immigrants, or the children of immigrants, and that that should be done secretly, and that it should not be published, be- cause it would be invidious ; but that it should be con- sidered by you when you come to weigh the evidence. Proceedings were adjourned for a short time. 388*. (Chairman.) Will you kindly continue ?—With reference to tho assimilation point, I want, as far as possible, to use the exact language of members of the Jewish community, who are trusted by them, so as to avoid any suggestion of stretching the evidence either way. On the refusal to assimilate I want to quote a ' . letter from Mr. George Pulberg, M.D., which is written from 260, Oxford Road, Manchester, and which appeared in the ." Jewish Chronicle," on August 31st, 1900: " Judaism is not a religion merely like Catho- licism or Protestantism ; it is a brotherhood, a race if you like, arid that it will remain as long as there are two Jews left in the whole world. Say, what you will,U'& 22 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: no matter how an English Jew or a German Jew may A. White, love and feel for his English or German neighbour, he a- ^ > will have a greater love, a greater sympathy for another 28 Apr. 190^. jew^ even if that other Jew may come from the other end of the world." That represents one section of feel- ing which is established by the quality, of aloofness, that the racial tie between the Jews of different countries is greater than the tie between immigrants who arrive in London and the English by whom they are sur- rounded, and it is this quality of aloofness that we are now upon. Then the next point is racial pride. In the language of Mr. H. S. Lewis, M.A., in " The Jew in London," on page 198: " Undoubtedly, the foreign Jew on his side" (he is speaking of the Russian immi- grants) " regards the Christian as his inferior, both morally and intellectually." I should also refer to an article by a Jewish workman, J. A. Dvche, in the " Con- temporary Review," of, I think, January, 1898, in which he refers to the English workman in language which I prefer not to* quote; but I refer to it as an indication of the intellectual feeling of the immigrant, when his qualifications are really being examined below the sur- face, and those of the people by whom he is surrounded. The next point is the capacity for overcrowding, and home work. On the question of overcrowding, and the Health Act, and the Housing Act, I do not propose to put in any lengthened or laborious evidence here, but I venture to refer the Committee to pages 89 and 90 of the book entitled " The Housing Question in London." 389. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) Perhaps it would be as well to get on the note the whole of the passages which you quote from " The Jew in London." The writer says, " Undoubtedly the foreign Jew on his side re- gards the Christian as his inferior, both morally and intellectually." The healing influence of time may not- produce uniformity of type, but it will gradually bring about a better mutual understanding between Jew and Christian, which will enable them to work out their destinies side by side. The part T have not quoted is, I venture to submit, not material to the point we are now upon. I have not omitted any part of the paragraph which would affect it. 389*. {Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) No, but it is part of the same paragraph?—I have not the least objection, but I am only trying to defend myself against the im- putation of having purposely left it out. It would be unnecessary perhaps in the view of the Commission to take up any time here on this question of overcrowding, because the question is so large and important that it had better come out of the mouths of witnesses who can speak with greater authority. My only title to speak on the question of overcrowding is that I happen to be the chairman of the Housing Committee of my particu- lar borough council, and I take a great interest in the subject; but I do not presume to speak with any authority. 390. {Chairman.) Have you any general view as to the housing question, because it is most material?— Yes, I have a very strong one. 391. Just state in a sentence or two what is your general view ?—My general view on the housing ques- tion and the relation of the immigrants to it is that their previous history and their capacity for over- crowding entirely disqualify them from entry to a country like this, where we are supposed to maintain the law, but where, as a matter of fact, in consequence partly—I do net say wholly—of this immigration the sanitary law is a dead letter. That is my view. You cannot level up the housing question in London until you have dealt with, inter alia, this alien question. I have here a book published by the London County Council, called " The Housing Question in London," and it gives the rise of rents, showing that the increase per week in July, 1899, in the case of direct letting, ranges from 3|d. to 4s. l^d. a week, and shows the im- mense rise in that way. That appears at pages 89 and 90. It also bears on the question of key-money, which 1 am about to mention. On the question of overcrowd- ing, since the inquiries of 1888 and 1889, a new practice has sprung up. "When I say new I was ignorant of it then, and I presume, therefore, that it did not exist. Perhaps I am mistaken, and if it did exist I did not know of it, though I was very intimately concerned in East End matters at that time. The practice of key- money is one of the results of the demand for house accommodation in the East End being greater than the supply owing to the immigration of which we are speaking. The foreigners are responsible for it, for it is they who are responsible for the overcrowding. If there were no foreigners coming in, there would be no overcrowding, and if there was no overcrowding there would be no such great demand for accommodation as there is to-day, a demand which has produced this practice of key-money. 392. Does that observation of yours apply all over London, or only to the East End?—No, I am speaking of the East End key-money. 393. Your observation was that if it were not for im- migration there would be no overcrowding ?—I refer to Stepney, Whi techapel, Mile End, St. George's-in-the- East, Bethnal Green, and possibly Bermondsey. The system of key-money is becoming—it is only fair to the immigrants to say—as common among the English in- habitants of the East End as among the foreigners. W hen a house in Stepney is about to be vacated, a score of foreigners are after it, everyone of whom is prepared to pay to the retiring tenant a certain sum of money for his help in getting him accepted as the new tenant. Unless the Englishman is ready to outbid the- foreigner, anc1 unless the landlord was this the only advantage reaped by England, The. . material wealth brought into the country was even less> .. remarkable than the high moral standard of the immk grants. They were the flower of the French population, and of the Low Countries. They were not attracted > here as mendicants by charities, nor did they come here because they were driven by economical or other - - reasons; they were driven out of their own country, and when they came' they frankly accepted the • nationality of the country of their adoption, and ' mixed their blood with, ours by intermarriage, re- • taining neither their racial pride nor exclusiveness, just as the Italians who settle here to-day. Nor • was England the only recipient of the advantages ; of these immigrants. In whatever countries the.. Huguenots settled, the same beneficial results were to- be traced. Three regiments of infantry and a squadron of Huguenot cavalry were raised by the Prince of* Orange. 700 Protestant gentlemen, of French birth^ served as officers in his other regiments. The friendly invasion of the Huguenots and the Flemings may be re- garded as the making of England, and one of the most beneficient events that ever happened to this country. There is no substantial case for establishing any r el ac- tion between the Huguenots and the Flemings, and the people who are thus spoken of by Mr. N. S. Joseph—one of the most beneficent and one of the ablest members of the ^ Russo-Jewish community. "There are thousands of immigrants"—he is speaking of people coming to this country—" who cannot be called refugees at all, but who, chronic, incurable paupers, have come from Russia or Poland in the hope of getting something from the Russo-Polish fund, of which they have heard such exaggerated accounts." I have dealt with the quality of the immigrant. With regard to the occupations of24 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: • Mr. '-iu these people, it would be almost necessary to go over White. -- a ^portion of the evidence which was given before - the Commission of 1888, and I do not propose to do that; 28 Apr. 1902. j d0 understand that an effort will be made to prove before the Commission that the sweating system • has been reduced since 1888, and has not been increased by this immigration. If that effort is made, I should attempt^ with the permission of the Commission, to adduce rebutting evidence, but it is not necessary for me to take up the time of the Commission by referring to the sweating system, because there is such a mass of evidence on the subject already. The Greener, as late as yesterday afternoon) (for I went myself to see) was in full evidence1 against the wall in Goulston Street waiting to be hired ; and the spectacle of the people who are there under those circumstances is very striking. I do not understand the arguments for their introduction. Then there is the boot 'trade, and the Commissioners will havean opportunity of examining a man like Mr. . Voitner and the people who understand the conditions ; and they wiill see the estimate which is formed by those responsible for the management of the industry so far as labour is concerned. The same may be said of furni- ture, cabinet^making, polishing and upholstery —■ all subordinate parts of the cabinet trade. Then tailoring, which is their best case—'I freely admit to the hilt any- thing that can be fairly claimed for their material benefit—increasing the number and cheapness of coats and trousers, but it takes a great deal more than that to make a nation, and you must remember that the coiats and trousers do not overcome the disadvantages which accompany their introduction. Then mantle making, cigarette making, furriering, and the increase of. vagrancy and lhawking, would be to investigate. Then as to the fare and lodging of the recent immigrant. I do not think it is necessary to do more than to suggest the desirability of instituting an inquiry which would take a very short time on these lines, if I am in order to refer to it here. According to Mr. Seebohm Rowntree, who' has made a special study of the question, a diet of 3,500 calories of food energy— I do not know much about calories, but I can explain the meaning of the word if desired—a calory is, I be- lieve, the hjeait unit which is produced by raising a -pound of water one degree Fahrenheit—that is the unit of nutriment obtained from certain classes of food —3,500 calories as food are required >as the diet of an •ordinary English working man in moderate work. The minimum cost of this food is 3s. per week each, for .^dulits, and 2s. 3d. each. per week for children. Every- body knows that tihe poor, buying their food and neces- saries in very small quantities pay a very much higher price for whiat they get than people belonging to the comfortable classes. Now, I venture to ask the Com- mission what is the effect on a population, one third of the native portion of which. are underfed already—what is the effect of introducing into Stepney, for example, 52,000 foreigners, whose diet contains a smaller number /than 3,500 calories, which is the minimum required to ' Tkeep an English, workman in ordinary health. The * ^existing low standard of hiealth among the British work- ing classes is already exemplified by the physical con- dition of army recruits. I again take Mr. Rowntree. because he is the latest, but I had other examples from ' Manchester, which are just as strong. "Striking evidence of the low standard of physical efficiency which obtains among the working classes, is afforded " by the statistics which show the proportion of recruits .applying for enlistment in the army which is rejected on account of physical unfitness." I need not go into the figures, because they can be put before the Com- mission, buit thev are very impressive, and the point I want; to make is that this plhysical fitness, which is < essential to our existence as a nation, is seriously im- paired .by the constant spectacle of tihe never-ceasing influx of people to whom physical fitness is a strange condition. 403. (Chairman.) But the immigrant cannot enlist. You are applying it to the general condition of things, and not to the Army?—Yes, my Lord. Of course, the Army comes from the fittest of our working population. 404. But. the alien immigrant cannot enlist unless he is naturalised ?—-No, of course not. I do not speak of ' that with reference to the alien immigrant, but with regard to the reduction of physical condition. 405. Speaking generallv ?—-iSpeaking generally. In i( Life and Ways of the People," the 8bh volume, Mr. Oharles Bbotlh, who now, I suppose, may be accepted as a standard authority, speaks of the principal causes of pauperism at Stepney in a table on page 314, in which he mentions drink, immorality, laziness, pauper asso- ciation, incapacity, extravagance, lack of work,' trade misfortune, accident, death of husband, mental derange- ment, sickess, old age—those are the principal causes of pauperism in Sitepney. This Royal Commission will observe-that the 54,000 foreigners resident in Stepney are not mentioned among those causes-—a very glaring omisision, and if Mr. Oharles Booth is right in stating these as the causes of pauperism, naturally the case I am trying to establish before the Commission falls to the ground. But my point is this : you do not. know, and you cannot follow by statistics, the hopelessness which is produced by indirect means, which cannot be followed by Government officials; and when they pro- duce' drink—nay, behind every one of these things almost you may find the destitute alien—-behind drink, behind immorality which comes from despair, behind the laziness, behind the pauperising association, extrava- gance, desertion, sickness, old age, you may find him not in the -statistical forms, but as a great operative cause; and I submit you cannot introduce 54,000 people into Stepney—I noit only submit it, but state it as a fact—without producing a vast physical and moral effect upon the population you have already got 'there. You may displace them, I admit, and yon may displace them gradually and painlessly, but you either displace them or you. influence them in some way which is pre- judicial. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where do you get the 54,000 from ? (Major JEvans-Gordon.) From the Census.. It is 54,310. (Witness.) Now I come to what I hope is nearly the last point, and that is the question of the numbers. I have put the question of numbers in this position be- cause I submit that the numbers are comparatively un- important. If you have a spoonful of prussic acid in a glass of water it is a very serious thing; but if you 'have a spoonful of prussic acid in Lake Windermere it does not matter, and my point is that these people are in the nature of poison to the immediate interests of the nation. Therefore the numbers are noit very important, but if you are taking the increase they are of course a certain measure of importance- On this question of numbers I venture to suggest to the Com- mission some considerations for entirely dismissing all the evidence that you hfave got in Blue books or from the Board of Trade, or from Mr. Llewellyn Smith, on t(he subject of the numbers. I am not challenging the book-keeping. The book-keeping of the Board of Tirade is as perfect as it can be, but it is a question of who (supplies the figures that come into the books, and it is on that that I -think I shall be able to show the Cotm- missiion, at all events, so much doubt exisits that there is no value in the figures that are furnished. In the first place, with, regard to the numbers, it is, I believe, an universal characteristic of Oriental races, accustomed as they have been for centuries to taxation, cruelly and arbitrarily imposed, to deal very freely and liberally with the question of numbers.. They dislike being counted, because counting and a census are gene- rally followed by taxation, or are often followed by taxa- tion ; and, therefore, tile numbering of any people having their origin in the Bast is by no means such an easy task as it might be suggested to be. With regard to tihe facility with which the masses of educated and the very best members of the community in England deal with numbers, I venture to cite from the two Jewish Yearbooks of 1898-90 and 1901-2 as in- stances. In the Yearbook for 1898-99 the Jewish popu- lation of Russia was put down at 4^ millions. At that time "Zionism" was not so strong as it is to-day. In the Jewish Yearbook for this year the Jewish population has sprung up to 6 millions ; but when I ventured to assert in 1898 that the Jewish population of Russia was 5 millions, I was told I was ridiculously exaggerating. But why this extraordinary discrepancy between 4^ and 6 millions? Because there is a certain amount of carelessness about the manipulation of numbers, which I 'suggest warrants very careful examination. 406. (Chairman.) Do you suggest the Stepney Census return which Major Evans-Gordon has referred to is inaccurate ?—I am going to suggest that the Census is inaccurate. I have only adduced this as a practical point to show the difficulties in connection with the numbers of these foreigners. 407. But that is. Russia, that you have referred to ?— Yes, but it is prepared in England. 408. But it is a Rus'sian alteration in numbers. li:MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 25 is quite .sufficient if you say there is ground for criticism of the numbers- I only want to know whether you -are Agoing to attack the Genius?—I am going to attack the Census. 409; (Mr. Norman.) His Lordship raises a very in- teresting point. Where do you suggest that alteration originated-—in Russia or in England ?—I do not know. The book is published in England. You will be able to call the publisher. 410. (Lord Rothschild.) lit is only hearsay evidence, lit is a publication in Rusisia 1—lit carries great weight with the British public. They say, we cannot go behind the figures published by .the authorities of the community. 411. (Chairman.) I am sure your sense of fairness will cause you to think about this. It is a very serious thing for a person in your position to make a charge against the Census authorities on the fact that some -figures in Russia have riot agreed. That is rather slight evidence, is it not?—When your Lordsihip suggests that I am founding what I am going to say about the Census on this, I assure your Lords'hip I am not going to do ' anything of the kind. I am going to challenge the Census on totally different grounds. W/faait I have in- troduced this matter for is to ishow that, in dealing with there is such a thing as what Lord Salisbury in his speech on the subject called a sweating down of figures ; and that there is a sweating up wherever you have the question of dealing with these immigrants. If Lord Salisbury uses the words puiblicly, " sweating down," I am entitled to use the words publicly "sweat- ing up.", Will you give us your views with regard to the Census returns, because this is most important P 412. (Mr. Norman.) To make thi® point quite clear : I understand you make absolutely no connection of any kind whatever between the Census in Great Britain, and these figures that you have been quoting?—None whatever. I only adduce that as an instance of deal- ing with figures, and the very liberal way in which the figures are manipulated up or down according to the necessities of the case, a dealing which is in no sense confined to these two books. Now with regard to the Census there is an extraordinary and incompatible con- tradiction between the number of these foreigners as stated by the census, and the number of these foreigners as suggested by the circulation, or, I should say, the alleged circulation of the newspapers; the children attending the schools, and by the general effect and in- fluence of these people in London. The question arises as to how the alleged inaccuracies, if they exist, arise. In the first place, bearing in mind what I venture to s put before the Commission on the subject of the dis- inclination of races of Oriental origin to being numbered, I ask you to remember a large number of these people when they were numbered were unable to speak any language but their own. It was, therefore, necessary to employ interpreters who are familiar with their language. These interpreters, from the nature of the case, were of the same race, shared the same prejudices, and were subject in greater or lesser degree to the same influences. Some of these Census enumerators are alleged to be untrustworthy. There are three sets of statistics for London, and as this reference refers particularly to London, I have only taken London. According to these statistics the marriages give 104,000 and the deaths 99,120. 413. (Chairman.) Are all these foreigners ?—Yes. 414. You would not distinguish in the deaths between alien immigrants and resident foreigners ?—No, I am taking the number of the Jews. 415: Are those Jews only ?—Yes, I am taking the Jews in London. 416. (Lord Rothschild.) Are. these only Jewish mar- riages you are giving, or the Jewish deaths?—I am sug- gesting there are three sources from which the numbers are obtainable, namely, the statistics of the marriages, the statistics of deaths, and the children at elementary schools. 417. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelion.) You say 104,000 mar- riages ?—Not 104,000 marriages, but the marriages would give a resident population of 104,000 Jews. 418. How mtich is that giving to each couple ?—I think it is five. I know the education figure is six. 419. (Chairman.) Do you mean marriages or married people Marriages. 6144 420. Annually 1—No. I must reserve that point for Mr. further enquiry. Taking the children at elementary A. White. schools it makes a much larger number. —— 421. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) Will you reserve the Apr. 1902. figures as to the deaths as well as the marriages ?—Yes, u" I will reserve that point. But whatever the figures come out to be I submit that the Census is entirely vitiated by the following facts. In the first place the practice of changing the name from foreign to English obliterates the alien origin, although the racial characteristic of non-assimilation remains. I have got cases even of Welsh names being taken by foreigners of the first generation. Griffith Evans is one of them. How would a foreigner who has come from Russia or Poland within the last comparatively few years be recognised in the Census returns under such .a name ? Take the constant changes of such names as Hirsch, which was originally given in Germany 120 years ago, when they were put in a row and became such names as Stagg and Wood, and other names like that—Hirsch is changed in England to Harris, Moses to Moss, Montagu Samuel becomes Samuel Montagu, and Schlesinger be- comes Sinclair, and there is a continual process of changing the foreign origin, so as to obliterate the alienage, while the non-assimilating quality remains. That I submit, as far as the Census is concerned, is one reason why it is impossible to say whether they are foreigners or not. Then the inducements to these im- migrants, who are visited by the Census enumerators, to conceal their origin, their numbers, and their place of birth. Seeing that the enumerators are also of the same race, however honest they may be, however skilful, however desirous of giving real returns to their Depart- ment, you will have this difficulty, that the people who come over here are subject to the strongest influence of racial tradition, the declining and dislike of being numbered; and the extent of their dislike and that repugnance to being enumerated exists are matters upon which I think some valuable evidence might be forthcoming. I know that a very high authority, namely, one of the Royal Commissioners, has publicly expressed a contrary view, but there should be a suffi- cient body of evidence to show this repugnance on the part of the people to be« numbered, and that the untrustworthiness on the part of certain enumerators, does, to a certain extent, account for the apparent dis- crepancy between the foreigners as given in the Census returns and the number of the foreigners as suggested by other means. 422. {Major Evans-Gordon.) In your opinion would it not be very difficult in any case for the enumerators, however they might endeavour to find out the real facts, to get at the accurate numbers inhabiting houses in districts like Stepney and Whitechapel, where it is known that the overcrowding is tremendous, and where, therefore, the inducement to conceal the numbers is of great importance to the people inhabiting the houses ?— I feel very strongly upon that point. I have had it brought under my personal notice that even among the English it is very difficult to get the right number of inhabitants in a house ; but it is still more difficult when the house is entirely inhabited by foreigners, and when those foreigners know that they are infringing the English law by inhabiting rooms in excess of the, amount allowed by law. Thus when they are num- bered it is in the highest degree improbable that you get the right pumber of inhabitants in a house. There is another strong reason which tends to indicate the in- accuracy of the Census. In 1889 the number of Jewish children in our public elementary schools in London was 10,122. According to the returns of 1901, there were 13,000 children in the Board Schools, and 8,245 in the voluntary schools, of whom 5,516 were born abroad, and 12,249 were born of foreign parents. Now, if the number of children at our public elementary schools have doubled since 1889, there is prima facie evidence for supposing that the foreign population have doubled. 423. (Chairman.) There is much more compulsion, and much more activity now than formerly?—At all events, my Lord, the discrepancy between the number of children (it is only a subordinate point) attending the public elementary schools then and now, and the number alleged in the Census of 1891 and of 1901, is a discrepancy which, to my humble- intelligence, seems to suggest that while we have accurate figures about the children we have not accurate figures about the parents. 424. I only #put it for your consideration. I qui to see what you say, and there may be prima facie some D26 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. suggested, discrepancy, but if it be that at the later * White, period there was much more care taken to compel the —-V attendance of children so as to get more children to 28 Apr. 1902. attend'than'did in the previous decade, does not that --- weaken your observation P—So far from weakening it I should say it strengthens it, because these children are educated out of the public rates, and why on earth should we educate them out of the public rates. 425. That is not my point at all. My point is that they did not attend formerly because the education officers did not make them attend so much as they do now, and, therefore, yoti get more children by reason of the greater stringency in the compulsion to attend, in the same way that you got a greater number of criminals when the number of police officers was increased, and they were more careful to arrest them. Does not that rather weaken the force of your observa- tion%—I frankly admit I think it does, if your Lord- ship's theory is correct. I admit it weakens the subordinate point, namely, that the Census is in- accurate, but it does bring out the major point. 426. You are quite right as regards your major proposition?—My major proposition is, we are,educa- ting at our own expense 21,000 foreigners, when we want the money for our own children. 427. (Major ~E vans-Gordon.) I should like to add to your point, Lord James, this very important point, that your argument would apply with almost convincing force if the children were the children of English parents. I think you would find, and it is a point worth inquiring into, that comparatively no pressure is required upon the children of foreign parents and Jewish children generally to enforce their attendance at school. It is a point tremendously to their credit that the everyday attendance at Jewish schools is enormously greater than it is with our children P—That is so. 428. (Lord 'Rothschild.) Formerly a great number of Jewish children went to schools which have been shut up by tlie authorities, and rightly shut up, for not being good schools, and more will come now because they are driven into the public schools ?—That may be so. 429.'* {Chairman.) You were referring to 1889 and 1901P—July 22nd, 1889—it is an exhibit to the second volume of the Alien Evidence. 430. Between those two periods free education came in, and if that was so, it added to the number of children, because it released them from all payment of fees. But I think you have made your point quite clear, and as regards your ma.jor proposition your figures remain quite good, but as to the first and second they are open to .the observation ?—-Quite so., 'Then the point about education is: to what extent the British rates are burdened by the charge for educating a non-assimilating race. That is the point—to what extent is it a public advantage? The hunger after knowledge characteristic of the people which I have described has nothing to do with the case from a national point of view, although it is as remark- able in England as it is in Russia, where they have re- cently out-grown their communal schools, and have re- sorted tp the public elementary education provided out of the rates. On the subject of the numbers, there are five further sources of error (I am not speaking of the census now) in the figures put before your Lordship by the, representative of the Board of Trade the other day. I only; had a copy of that evidence to-day for study, and I have had very little time to examine it. 431. Would you prefer reserving your comments upon it until Thursday ?—No, I would rather give those five points, because they are important. Before the last Commission, in 1888, I sent down (and I went myself) a ■couple of Inspectors who boarded every ship that came in, day and night, for a week, and I found certain dis- crepancies—not to a very large extent, but discrepancies m the Board of Trade Returns ; and I found that the reason why the discrepancies took place was because the master of the ship had no inducement to make an ac- curate report. He is not paid—^he may be punished if he does not do it, but he is not paid, and he has got no inducement. , l (Chairman.) So Mr. Llewellyn Smith said—it was voluntary? 432. (Mr. Norman.) His inducement is to make in- accurate returns because it saves him trouble ?—That is the point. The consequence is that he delegates it some- times to the cabin boy, sometimes to the steward, some- times to a member of the crew—but it is delegated,- and it is delegated in such a way as to destrcfy all statistical value in the return. I admit that the moment it gets iriside the mouth of the Board of Trade it is dealt with on absolutely perfect lines, the book-keeping is excellent, and I have nothing to say against the book-keeping, but the return before it enters the mouth of the Board of Trade is tainted. These figures are tainted, and for the following reasons, in addition. We are told that the immigration is so small on the balance, because so many go out and so many come in, and the one total balances the other. The Board of Trade takes that balance, which is struck with perfect equanimity. What really happens ? It is Lazarus who comes in and Lazarus has made a bit of money, and Very likely becomes a Dives. He goes out, and the Board of Trade in cold blood takes Dives and puts him against Lazarus who comes in. It strikes the balance. 433. (Chairman.) I think Mr. Llewellyn-Smith ex- plained that Dives and Lazarus were different people. That is a very crude method to take the number of people coming in and going out. We ought to look at the different classes ?—That is it. The next point is on this question of through tickets. Although it may seem almost like, blasphemy to challenge the accuracy of the principle followed by the Board of Trade Department, I venture to give the Committee, for what it is worth, the result of the very laborious and anxious thought and care and inquiry I have put into this matter, and I do not believe that the through ticket system exists. I do not think the examination of tickets is made sufficiently often, even to warrant its being called a return. There is no real difference between those who stay and those who go on, and that question was brought out by a question put by Mr. Norman, whioh really covers the point I want to make. ^ 434. Major Evans-Gordon got it out that many of these through tickets were for Finland men and men of the North, and did not touch the subject of our inquiry?— That is so. The Board of Trade Department deduct from the gross figures those people who ship and come here as crew, and they adopi'that system with the same equanimity that they adopt with regard to the through ticket system, but, according to this, no foreign seaman is ever out of work in England. You have only to go clown to the docks to see what is the case ; and yet, according to the Board of Trade, every single foreigner who comes to this country as a passenger and who ships as crew is not admitted to be a foreigner ; but the thing is absurd. Of course, there is a great margin of foreign seamen who are out of work and who come over here as foreigners and who, as a matter of fact, are not foreign seamen, and the Board has no right to deduct them. They take the word of these people that they are foreign seamen. Why should the Board of Trade select a par- ticular class and deduct them ? 435. If they come over here to obtain employment, and you find them in the shipping district, say amongst the docks, would you not assume rather that they do get employment?—Some of them^do. 436. There is some deduction to be made?—Yes, but not what the Board of Trade does, namely, to deduct the lot. 437. What becomes of those you say they ought not to deduct because there is a great demand for foreign seamen for our ships now? I do not understand there are any more men loafing about who have not got em- ployment ?—I take it they go into other trades, but they have never figured in the Board of Trade statistics. 438. Can you give us any figures ?—If I were plaintiff in this case and had the conduct of the case for restric- tion, I should undoubtedly attempt to get evidence on the point. 439. (Sir Kenehn Digby.) You have made a strong assertion, but have you any figures at all about this, or any information as to the actual facts ?—I do not under- - stand what the "strong assertion" is. 440. Have you any information as to the actual fact© as to the number of seamen who come here and who re- main unemployed in this country?—I am only a private individual. 441. I ask you the question, have you any figures ?—I have not; I have no figures whatever. 442. You have made a very strong assertion, not a sweeping generalisation, and I want to know whether there is any basis for it in your own mind, and whether you have any information on which you base it?—I have made a very strong assertion, which is not only an assertion, buit a fact. The assertion that I have made IMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 27 want to repeat, that the Board of Trade do deduct all the foreign seamen (that is my sweeping assertion) who come to this country as passengers and ship again as crew, That is my sweeping assertion. Then I go on, not with an assertion, sweeping or otherwise, but with an humble expression of my opinion. 443. (Chairman.) I understand you to say the Board of Trade makes the sweeping assertion ?—Yes. 444. Cannot we leave that rather open—-they may or may not ?—Yes; I do not want to be understood as making an assertion about things I do not know. 445. (SirKenelm Digby.) What I wanted to know was whether you could give us any information as to the number of sailors who come here and who remain here unemployed ?■—No private individual can, and I cannot. 446. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your point is that you do not think a deduction of the whole number of foreign seamen who come here is legitimate ?—Yes; that is not an assertion, but -that is my suggestion or opinion. 447. They are deducted en bloc, and you think some allowance ought to be made for those who remain ; that is not made ?—Yes. 448. (Mr. Norman.) We are all agreed, for whatever it may be worth, that the Board of Trade are not .abso- lutely and scientifically correct ?—I am much obliged, sir. Then a third source of error, which I'submit exists with reference to the Board of Trade statistics, is as to the number of destitute aliens who work their passages over here as odd men, or cattle helps, or cooks, besides those who are returned as rejected under ,the United .States restrictive laws, or who arrive here and who are dis- charged destitute at the port of arrival—that none of these persons who are temporarily employed on board these ships are included in the Board of Trade returns. They may be, but I am unable to find them. 449. (Chairman.) If they land I think they are, but if there is no proof of landing I think they are not ?•—A discharged cattleman ? 450. Yes, if he is proved to be landed here I think he is included, but I will look into that ?—I venture to suggest the point. The Census Returns I have referred to. Lastly, the figures are not collected by the Board of Trade officials themselves. There is no administra- tive responsibility exercised by the Department, and, from the result of private checks instituted at various times on incoming vessels at my own cost, I have reason- able ground, not. for making a sweeping assertion, but for doubting the accuracy of the figures obtained. 451. It is due to Mr. Llewellyn Smith to say that he said, as you have done, that these were voluntary returns and they could not give them accurately?—Yes. 452. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He said they were volun- tary and sketchy ?—Yes. The next point is the extent to which the existing law of England on sanitary matters and housing and building • questions is incapable of being enforced in consequence of the presence of these aliens. I submit it is a very seriotts matter that the Act . of Parliament which is presumed to be understood and obeyed by the native residents should become a dead letter in consequence of immigration. I submit that) is a very important point. 453. (Chairman.) Will you show how it is that that result is arrived at, and that the Act of Parliament be- comes a dead letter ?—I will endeavour to do so. 454. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) Is this in East London i' —-Yes, and wherever the foreigners are buying up the fag ends of leases. 455>. It is sufficient to say the sanitary law cannot be enforced, and has become a dead letter by reason of immigration ?—Yes. 456. (Chairman.) Would ycm, give us the example of East London ?—Yes. If you will take the sanitary clauses of that portion of the Health Act wilich relate to housing you will find the impossibility of doing anything, anil tiftat it is at this moment a dead letter in various pairts of London, mainly, not wholly, owing to this immigration. 457. Will you give us an example of one of the sections which you say cannot be carried out in conse- quence of this congested state of things ?—The chief one I would select is the bye-law which is confirmed under the Public Health Act, and which I believe is adopted by every one of the Borough Councils in London—that is, that 400 cubic feet of space shall be the minimum 6144 sleeping area of each adult individual. That I mention as the principal one. A. White. 4^8. That is the law. How is it that law cannot be a ~ qao- applied, and what are the obstacles ? — Because the APr- foreigners will sleep ten or twelve in a room and think nothing of it. 459. Why cannot the law be enforced ?—Because you would have to put them into the street, and you cannot do that in the winter. That is why it is a dead letter. 460. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You would have 50 per cent, of the population in the street to-morrow?—You would have a revolution if you tried to enforce that law. 461. (Chairman.) If you get a very congested district. in any town where you would have to put the people in the street if the law is enforced, the same difficulty would present itself ?—Except this, that the bulk of the natives would not sleep ten or twelve in a room. 462. I am on that hypothesis, but your case is that they do. not do it ?•—Not only they do not do it, but these people are living here as they are accustomed to live at home, and that is very bad indeed for us. 463. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) In that very book of Mr. Rowntree's, of York, he points to the same condition of things prevailing, not by reason of immigrants, but by reason of the nature of the inhabitants?—It is very much worse in London than York. York is a perfect gem. 464. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are there not other parts of London where the same or similar conditions prevail? Take the South of London or the North-West of London ? —That may be, but I am only giving evidence on the immigration question. 465. One wants to know how much of it is due to immigration, and the important question 'bo consider is whether the same conditions do not prevail elsewhere ?— I have never seen them. I cannot give evidence of places I do not know. I find in Hampstead, which I know thoroughly well, that we have overcrowding there, and we are unable to enforce the sanitary laws in conse- quence, although there are no aliens. I do- not want to press the point against the aliens unduly, but this I do find, that in Hampstead the fag ends of leases of low- class houses are beginning to be bought up by aliens, and it is the beginning of slum-making. When once you get the beginning of slum-making you get a slum popu- lation,and nothing on earth will cure it, because wher- ever they go they make slums, and these immigrants from the housing point of view are the womb of slums— they make slums. They are slum manufacturers neces- sarily, and to that extent are very bad for this country. 1 466. (Mr. Norman.) Your point, I understand, is that whatever may be the cause of overcrowding elsewhere, in the East End of London the alien immigration is the cause ?—The chief cause. 467. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The mere fact of the numbers is almost the, raight place for what?—For set- one district alone must have made an enormous difference to the population ?—Yea < The rise of the rents bears on this question of overcrowding. Take some c/ase*> froan Stepney alone—112, Oharle& Street, the rent was raised from 14s. to £1 Is. In 92, Sydney Street the renit was raised from lis. to 18s. 468. (Chairman.) Js> that for a house ?—-Weekly rentals—the tenement. > It may be a house, or it may be a tenement in a house. 469. Whatever it is the same thing that was lis. be- came 18s. ?—That is the point. 470. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That point you can elabo- rate to any extent?—Yes, I have a great deal to say with regard to that point,, but I do not propose t<> trouble you with these rises of rents, because you can get them from somebody who knows much more about them than I do. 471. (Chairmani.) It is an undoubted fact?—rThat is unquestioned. That is my point about how far the sani- tary laws supposed to be administered not only become a dead letter, but tend to become more of a dead letter, and that the area where they are a dead letter tends to extend in consequence of .the immigration of these aliens. Lastly, "while on this point I would mention the importance of applying part 3 of the Housing Act in any district where these aliens abound. 472. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) Is that the clearing part of the Act?—Yes, it is the operative part of the Act, The Act is pradtic&lly a deiad letter in consequence of D228 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. this immigration. It is useless. Then among these A. White, other effects, overcrowding and so on, there is the effect t. ;-. on the aliens themselves. I do not think it would be a 28 Apr. 1902. surprise to anybody who wishes to look into this subject to find there its a very sitrong feeling among many of these aliens who are doing well, to prevent immigra- tion. They know a great deal of it does not arise from persecution, but that it does arise from these causes which I hive given evidence upon ; and the effect on these aliens is really this, to keep submerged a consider- able portion of those who have already arrived, and to increase the heavy burdens which are borne by the bene- volent and richer members of the community, which burdens are enormous. I do not want to speak about the arrangements of the United States, but I do sub- mit that notwithstanding their infinite possibilities and power of absorbing elements which by reason of its size and resources would become poisonous in this country we are continuing to take in people who are positively rejected by the United States. The number of persons who are returned from the United States by the immigration laws are very few indeed. If you look at the figures I do not think they come to more than-— 473. (iLord Rothschild.) One per cent. ?—I never take proportions. There is nothing so dangerous on this sub- ject as to talk about one per cenit., because it is my example again of a spoonful of prussic acid in a glass otf water. It is not one per cent. It is the actual number. But whether it is 100, or whatever the number may be, I do submit it is an absolutely unthinkable proposition that we should become the sink of any other country, particularly the United States, which has the scum of Europe already—ithait this over-popu- lated country should have these rejected members frorfr the United States. I believe it is the fact (I cannot sitaite iit from personal knowledge) tihiaJt the United Sltaites Government has been petitioned by the Hebrew community against free immigration. 474. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Free immigration of their own co-religionists?—No, not their own co-religionists. You know what is done with Italians and Hungarians and others in the United States. T'hey have «a great problem which hias yet to be solved, and the feeling about free immigration in the United States is so strong—I speak from three visits (I do not pretend to any partieu i ar knowledge on the subject), but the feeling is so strong that it seems to me perfectly clear that if the rulers of this country had their time over again they would certainly noit pursue the same plan they have pursued of accepting everybody without enquiry ; and if they should not adopt measures of restriction however limited, a fortiori it is fair that England should do the same thing, because our traditions that we hear so much of and talk so much of were made up—Why ? Because we get great economical advantages out of this immigration. I think that is all that requires inquir- ing into that I can suggest. THIRD DAY. Thursday, 1st Map, 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James op Hereford (Chairman). Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. JR. Macleod. 1 May 1902. Mr. Reginald Macleod, called; and Examined. 475. (Chairman.) You, I believe, are at the head of the Census Department?—As Registrar-General I am at the head of the Census Department. 476. As we know, the Census is taken in periods of 10 years, so you have taken it in your time in 1891 and last year ?—I did not take it myself in 1891. I was only appointed in 1900. 477. You are acquainted with what took place in 1891?—-Yes, generally. 478. And also last year ?—Yes. 479. We are inquiring, as you know, into the state of things affecting foreigners in this country, particularly the persons we term alien immigrants. Has any change been made in the practice of taking the Census in respect to foreigners between 1891 and 1901 ?—There was a change made in the form of the Census Schedule. In 1891 people when born abroad were instructed to state whether they were British subjects or naturalised British subjects; and if they did not make any entry in the Schedule to that effect they were all classed as foreigners; but when the phraseology was considered for 1901 it was felt an effort should be made to obtain greater accuracy. Consequently the instructions were that all persons born abroad should state whether they were British subjects, naturalised British subjects, or foreign subjects. When they did so state in accordance with instructions we had no difficulty in allocating them to their proper position, but when they did not so state we were in this difficulty that we had no more reason to suppose they were foreign subjects than that they were British subjects. Consequently we had to weigh the circumstances of each case, and in giving the instructions to the abstracters we told them wliat to do in such circumstances. Perhaps I might read the instructions so given : —" For every person born in any foreign country a tick is to be made opposite the name of the country in which such person is stated to have been born, those described as British subjects or as naturalised British subjects being entered in the columns thus headed, and the remainder to be treated as foreigners and entered in that column accordingly. In the absence of definite information all persons bearing apparently British names and stated to have been born in any foreign country except the United States should be abstracted as British subjects. Women whose hus- bands, and children whose fathers, are stated to be British subjects or naturalised British subjects or of British birth should be abstracted as British subjects." 480. Why do you draw the distinction between out- side the United Kingdom except the United States ?— Because there is no means of differentiating between a British sounding name in the United States and this country. 481. Of course we see the effect of the change. The change, I presume, would be to make it appear there are fewer foreigners now than in 1891 ?—The change would operate in that direction. In order that I might have some facts to lay before the Commission I have caused a certain portion of the Schedules of the East of London to be examined, and I find that out of a total of 4,443 persons abstracted in this group of Schedules there was a definite statement which enabled us to allocate them in the case of 2,329, but there was no statement in the case of 2,114. 482. Which period are you speaking of now?—I am speaking of 1901. 483. • That is, they, neglected to fulfil the instruction ? —'Precisely, in the case of 2,114, or nearly one-half.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 29 484. If they do not fulfil the instructions you must .act according to the best ingredients for decision which jrou have in your power?—That is so. 485. That, of course, proves that you do not get perfect accuracy?—That is so. 486. Which do you say was the more accurate system, -that of 1891 or of 1901P—I think that of 1901. 487. Because there affirmatively they had to state ^according to the instructions?—Yes. 488. And you got more of them than you did in lodl, but not all ?—In 1891 we should have given the whole of those 2,114 to foreigners. On this occasion we tried - to do the best we could to allot them according to the instructions I have read. I might perhaps add as part -of this subject that of those who gave us information "1,992 said they were foreign subjects. 489. Out of how many ?—Out of 2,329 who gave us information 1,992 said they were foreign subjects, and 337 said they were British subjects. 490. What is the proportion of persons who neglected to make any statement at all ?—2,114 neglected to make -any statement at all. Of those 2,114 we allocated 1,930 to foreigners and 184 to British on the grounds that 1 have given. 491. Out of how many have you taken those 2,114?— 'The total number was 4,443 simply as a test. 492. You experimented on those ?—Yes. 493. And 2,114 have not answered ?—That is so. 494. What is the reason why there is so much default ? —I think it is ignorance and the want of appreciation of the value of statistics. 495. I suppose some people do not read?—If your -Lordship would look at a Census Schedule it is a little intricate to an uneducated person, and the value of a good many questions asked is not readily appreciated. 496. In taking the Census, of course the principal object, or one of the principal objects, is to gire the gross number of persons in existence in certain areas. You have a Census taken specially for London County? —-Yes, that is one of the areas. 497. Is that the same as regards boundary with the London County Council area ?—That is so. '498. We know what that is ?—It is the administrative 'County of London. 499. Divided into how many districts ?—Into 29 metro- politan boroughs. 500. You follow for the Census the metropolitan boroughs ?—Yes. 501. Do you mean the Parliamentary boroughs ?—No ; the metropolitan boroughs as created by the recent Act. 502. The municipal boroughs?—Yes; we also give in- formation by the Parliamentary constituencies, and also ^by registration districts and sub-districts. 503. In the first place you take the districts, then the gross population, of course distinguishing male and female; you then take occupations?—Yes. 504. I think that is the principle. You also have got under your control the number of houses ?—We have. 505. And a table showing the number of persons occu- pying the houses—not each house, but the number of houses with their rooms in each class ?—We only tabulate the rooms in tenements with less than five rooms. No ; notice is taken of tenements above four rooms. 50b. Where you would expect to get the crowding, that is in tenements under four rooms, you have got -the figures?—That is so. 507. Now, take in the first instance the London 'County area?—Table 37B is the table giving the occu- pations of foreigners. It is on page 162. 508. I am afraid we have not given you any notice of the exact information we require from you, but in the first place give us the total population in the London * County area ?—I can state that from the first table. In "the administrative County of London, and in the City of London, the total population is 4,536,541. (See page 13 *cf Census of England and Wales.) 509. Just divide those into male and female?— ::2,142,085 males, 2,394,456 females. 510. I do not know whether in the Blue Book you have worked out the summary ?—As to occupations ? 511. No, first as to the total' foreigners ?—Yes, w@ give that in Table 37, page 156—total foreigners for the County of London and City of London, and foreigners for each of the Metropolitan Boroughs. 512. Total foreigners in the area of the County and City of London, males 79,804 ?—That is correct. 513. Females, 55,573?—That is correct. 514. Just give the grand total?—135,377 persons. 515. First, if you please, we will trace as far as we can the place of their origin?—Immediately following these totals just below are stated the populations of each of the European countries, and following upon that the countries of Asia, Africa, and America, being foreign countries. 516. When you say the population of the countries you do not mean the gross population of the whole country?—No, I mean the foreign population enume- rated in London but born in the particular country. 517. Does that table correctly give the places of origin so far as they can be ascertained?—That is a correct abstraction, as far as we can do it, of the persons stated to be born in each country. Certain tables contained in the Blue Booh, Census of England and Wales, 1901 (County of London), were handed in, contained on pages 156-158, 20, 162 to 169* See Parliamentary Paper (C.D. 875). 518. The result is that Stepney is quite abnormal in its poulation?—Quite abnormal, not only in London, but in the whole kingdom. 519. Your tables will speak for themselves as to each one of these districts ?—They do so. 520. We will now go to the occupations?—That is page 162, table 37 B. The total number of foreigners occupied above the age of 10 are males 69,269, arid females 17,953. That is a total of 87,222. 521. What is the total of all foreigners?—79,804 males and 55,573 females. 522. Then 87,222 seem to be occupied out of 135,377 ? —I' may point out in dealing with occupied foreigners that it is important to keep the sexes apart, because the proportibn of males who are occupied is infinitely greater than the females. 523. There are 79,804 all told of male foreigners?— Yes. 524. Of those very nearly 70,000 are occupied?—Yes. 525- And there are 55,573 females ?—Yes. 526. Of whom 18,000 are occupied ? — Yes; I have some notes on the subject of the occupation of foreigners as regards the general population and the difference between the females comes out in a very marked degree, owing* as I think statistics will show, to the fact that a larger proportion of foreign females are married than the home population females, and of course married females are not so largely engaged in occupations as unmarried. 527. {Major Bvans-Gordon.) With oregaord to these figures of people 10 years and upwards, do you include in that only the children of foreign parents born abroad or the children of foreign parents born in this country as well?—We include only people who are described in our schedules as born abroad, and we do not abstract any as foreigners except those who state they were born, abroad. 528. You do not include those born in this country ? —No, we do not include those born in this country. 529. (Chairman.) Now, will you give us first the occupations throughout the London County area, and give them in the order of the most numerous persons employed?—Tailors are the most nuimerous of alL Those are at the head of page 169, Order 19. 530. Give me the number of tailors employed throughout the London County area who are foreigners ? —There are 13,183 males and 3,477 females, total 16,660. 531. That is by far the most numerously employed trade?—That is decidedly the most numerous. 532. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is throughout the whole metropolitan area ?—-Yes. i\:r. R. Macleod i May 1902.wmm^- 30 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. 533. (Chairman.) Now, will you give mo the place of B. Mmcleod. origin of the tailors. Turn to Russia, and see how —- many of these tailors are from Russia and Russian 1 May 1902. Poland ?—There are 6,595 male Russian tailors and — 1,814 female Russian tailors. 534. Does that include Russian Poland?—No, that is Russia alone. From Russian Poland there are 3,475 males and 789 females. 535. Now, give me the country that is next in produc- tion of these tailors %—Germany comes next, there being 1,305 males and 406 females of German birth. 536. And Austria?1—There are 607 males and 137 females. 537. From Servia and Roumania, there are 219 imales and 117 females F—Yes. 538. Now, give me the next most important trade?— That is the boot and shoe trade. 539. Give me the total employed in boot and shoe- making?—3,712 males and 140 females. 540. Give me the countries for the boot and shoe- makers?—There again Russia comes first with 2,158 males and 92 females, arid Russian Poland comes second with 732 males and 28 females. The others are not important. 541. How many from Germany?—292 males and 7 females. 542. Now, take the third trade?—I am not sure if it is absolutely the third, but bread and biscuit-making is an important one. There are 2,223 males engaged in bread and biscuit making, and 22 females, and the number of those engaged in a kindred trade, which it is . very difficult to differentiate, namely, bakers and con- fectioners (dealers), is 1,017 males and 144 females. Then cabinet-making is an important trade. That comes on page 167, Order 13, under " Furniture." Cabinet- making, 3,019 males and 6 females. 543. j$£a/jor Evans-Gordon♦) Of whom 1,606 are Russians and 292 Poles ?—That is correct. ; 544. (Chairman.) Now give us the people employed as waiters?—People employed in domestic indoor ser- vice are divided into two heads—those employed in hotels and those engaged in ordinary domestic service; those employed in hotels, etc., number 1,467 males and 192l females, and those engaged in, other domestic ser- vice number 1,746 males and 5,785 females. 545. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have you a heading " Hawking and costermongers " ?—-Yes, that is at the extreme end, on the last page, 169, Order 22. They number 1,754 males and 131 females. 546. Of those 403 are Russians, male and female?-— Yes. 547. And the Poles 112 males and 18 females ?—Yes ; total, 130. 548. ^Chairman.) How many foreigners are there living on their own means ?—The total living on their show how they contrast with "fee numbers employed among the general population. 560. That is what we want ?—In London the propor- tion of males of 15 years and upwards engaged in occu- pations is 93 per cent, of the general male population. Of male foreigners the proportion is rather higher, 94 per cent., but when we come to the females the pro- portion of the general population engaged in occupa- tions is 41 per cent., whereas the proportion of the foreign born females engaged in occupations is only' 36 per cent. 561. Is there any inference that you draw from these - figures?-—The obvious inference would be that the female foreigners were not as much engaged in the trade of the country as the population at large; but I think it is necessary to point out that these figures < really are modified by the fact that, the percentage of unmarried females among the total foreign females is much less than in the general population, and it is well known that married females are not engaged in occupations in the same proportion as un- married. I have worked these figures out simply think- ing they might be interesting, but I do not wish to draw any broad conclusion from them. 562. Are there any other figures that you can assist us with?—I do not know whether the Commission re- gard as of importance the question as to the number of J children that belong to foreign parents, but are not counted in the foreign born persons, owing to the fact» of their being born after their parents arrived in this country. 563. Yes, we should like to have that ?—I can only give that by citing certain test figures which I abstracted. In the regular work of abstracting the ordinary figures, as I have explained before, we only took out those as foreigners who stated that they were- born abroad; but in order to enable me to furnish the Commission with some means of drawing an in- ference upon this point, I have had a block in East London taken out and specially abstracted. 1,038 r schedules were dealt with, signed by foreigners as the occupiers. 564. Can you give the area they come from?—They come from St. George's-in-the-East, sub-district St.-.'MINUTES OF EPIDENCE. 31 •George's North. The persons stated to be born, abroad •on those schedules numbered 3,647. 565. Do those represent heads of families or all ^persons who stated they had been born abroad ?—All persons with the statement against their names that they, were foreigners, or whom we have allocated as foreign from internal evidence. On the same schedules persons stated to be born in the British Isles, or classed .as being so born, under the age of 15, numbered 1,590. The number of persons on the same schedules, 15 years and upwards, numbered 2158. For this test only schedules signed by foreigners were selected for abstraction. On those 1,038 schedules, 3,647 persons were found to have ^been foreigners born abroad. On those schedules there were also found, in this special littles iiiquriy I have made, 1,590 children under 15 years of age born in this country, and therefore not classed as foreigners. 566. That is in addition to the 3,647 T—Yes. Above .15 years of age there were 238 in the same position. 567. Children of foreign parents born in this country not classed as foreigners ?—That is so. , 568. That is 50 *per cent, nearly, in addition to tile 3,647 ?:—That is something like it. 569. There would be an addition if we take in the -children so born as you have mentioned to be .added to the foreigners ?—That would be so. I havo made the calculation taking that basis. I would like to express a caution that I think we have not got fround enough to build a great structure on this fact, ut for what it is worth, I may state that, taking the -foreigners as abstracted in London at the total already ..given, 135,377, if we add to that the proportion of chil- dren which has been disclosed in this statement under ^L5, the number so added would come out at 59,021, and the total of persons who were either born abroad or were presumably children of foreign parents, would work out 194,39a 570. Instead of 135,000?—Yes; but I wish par- ticularly, if I may, to emphasise the fact that 1 do not vouch for that. I am only giving a broad deduction from a small basis of ascertained fact. 571. You say, if things were equal, if that were carried out that would be the result ?—Yes, but indeed I should say that is certainly ari excessive estimate, because one could not in dealing with the shipping population, and persons engaged in certain trades, especially the sailors, make that addition since they vwould probably have no children with them at all. 572. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is the district from which ;you take these figures mainly the district inhabited by this large number of Russians and Poles?—Yes, St. • George's-in-the-East. It is part of the Borough of .'Stepney. 573. (Chairman.) If anything else occurs to you with inference to that last point we shall be glad to receive it ?—There is this point, which is really a part of the •.•same calculation. The numbers of foreigners differ very greatly in age periods from the numbers in the general population, Under 15 the number of foreigners abstracted such number only 9.8 of the total foreign population, whereas the proportion of • children under 15 in the general population to the total population is 29*9, so you have 9'8 as contrasted with "29-9. 574. (Chairman,) Does not that follow rather from immigration—that people who come over here to earn a living are very often unmarried?—I think it follows irom the fact that the children of these foreign parents born in this country are not abstracted as foreigners. It is confirmatory rather of the previous statement. 575. Then the numbers you gave us just before this bring that number up?—Yes. Then we come to the liiext age period which I have taken as from 15 to 45 "broadly., the period of greatest activity, and there the proportion of the general population at that group of ' ages to the total population is 51*2, but the proportion • of the foreign population at that age between 15 and 45 to the total foreign population is 72*7, in the latter case- being very much higher, and in the previous case very much lower than the percentages of the general popula- tion. 576. It seems as if we get more of the active labourers here than you have in respect of the general popula- tion F-^-Yes, at the active time of their life. 577i (Major Evans-Gordon.) But the difference of age jou have just referred to is accounted for on the same basis that you do not abstract them as foreigners ?— Mr. Yes, to a very large extent, I think. I do not think R. MacLeod. there is anything else I need trouble you with. -, (Proceedings were adjourned for a short time.) 1 May 1902. 578. (Major Evans-Gordon.) First, generally speak- ing, what means have you got of getting at the real facts with regard to the birthplace and foreign origin of the people we are inquiring about?—Simply the returns given to our enumerators. 579. Is there any penalty attaching to giving a wrong return?—Yes, but none has been enforced. 580. It has never been enforced?—There have been prosecutions for refusal to give returns. 581. Refusal altogether to give any sort of return?— Yes. 582. But not of giving a false return?—" at the top you will see that. I M^~T902 597-8. That does not give the number per room?— ^ * 1,734 cases where there were four persons occupying a single room. 599. (Chairman.) I do not follow that ?—In 1,734 cases there were four persons occupying a single room in Stepney. 600. Each, or four in one room ?—Four in one room.. 601. Just begin at Stepney. At the beginning there are " Tenements of less than five rooms." (Major Evans-Gordon.) First we get the total tene- ments, 61,113, and tenements of less than five rooms, 49,182 ?—Then there were 13,282 tenements of one room. 602. (Chairman.) Now, would you mind working that out ?—15,690 tenements of two rooms; 11,926 tenements of three rooms; and 8,284 tenements of four rooms. 603. You have not gone into anything above four?— No. 604. Now, will you dissect that ?—Following on, there were 3,081 cases where one person occupied a single-room tenement. 605. Alone 1—Yes. There were 4,273 cases where two persons occupied a single-room tenement, and there were 2,879 cases where three persons occupied a single room. There were 1,734 cases where four persons occupied a single room. There were 824 cases where five persons occupied a single room. There were 309 oases where six persons occupied a single room. There were 131 cases where seven persons occupied a single room, and so on. 606. We had better get all the figures now?—There were thirty-seven oases where eight persons occupied a single room; eleven cases where nine persons occupied a single room; , one case where ten persons occupied a.single room; one case where eleven persons occupied a single room, and one case where twelve or more persons occupied a single room. 607. (Major Evans^Gordon.) Twelve people in one room?—Yea. 608. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The meaning of the word " tenement" is what is held by a single family, is it not ? —Yes, in respect of which the schedule is filled up. It is so many schedules for so many tenements. 609. Nothing whatever to do with what we ordinarily know as " tenement houses " ?—No. 610. A four-roomed house ?—A four-roomed tenement. 611. (Chairman.) You have, dissected it, and taken rooms out with the population in each room ?—'Yes. 612. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Taking the ninth column, "persons per tenement/' in that house there would be one room with eleven people in it ?—That is exactly it. 613. You do not give the total number in the house ?— No. 614. But one of those rooms had eleven people in it ?— Yes....... 615. It does not mean there were forty-four people in that hotuse P—-No, not at all. ; 616. (Chairman.) That is a one-room tenement ?—That is a one-room tenement. 617. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) A tenement is that in respect of which a separate return ip made ?—That is so— at a. separate occupier. 618. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you oouve to the total tenements in the second line ?—I will go through that in the same way. There were 15,690 tenements ol two rooms each, and in 586 cases one person occupied these two rooms, in 2,864 cases two persons occupied the tenement of two rooms, and so on. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you want to go into any other part of London, with regard to those tenements ? 619. (Chairman.) Had you not better take what we call 'ail open district, so as to show that Stepney is iii a different'condition to the others? Take any one that you think is a fair specimen. Will Ghelsea do?—I should think Chelsea would be about the average. 620. Can you give us a similar table to that you have tiiken for Stepney ? Is Chelsea a district of its own?— Yes. 621. Would you give the corresponding number of one- room tenements and the occupiers of the one-room tene- ments in Chelsea ?—There were 5,812 tenements of one * room in Chelsea. Of those, 2,018 were occupied by a si ugle person, 1,111 were occupied by two persons, 436 bj three persons, 185 by four persons, 53 by five persons, seven by six persons, and two by seven persons, and in~ no case is there any higher number in a single room tenement in Chelsea. 622. (Major Evans-,Gordon.) That iwill do for the purposes of contrast ?—I might point out at page xi. in - the Summary the' comparative percentages in the dif- ferent boroughs of London are given. It is put very briefly^ but perhaps sufficiently for the purposes of the Commis- sion on this point: " The proportion of tenements with less than five rooms, which averaged 65*9 per cent, in the county of London, showed marked variations in the Metropolitan boroughs. The lowest percentages wer^ 30*9 in Lewisham, 42*2 in Hampstead, and 42*3 in, Wandsworth; while the highest percentages were 80*5 in Stepney, 82*9 in SouthWark, 84*1 in Bethnal Green,. 84-9 in Shoreditch, and 85*1 in Finsbury. The propor- tion of single-room tenements (which averaged 14*7 per cent, in all London) showed still wider variations int. the several boroughs, ranging from 3*5 in Lewisham, 4*1 ~ in Wandsworth, and 6*4 in Hampstead, to 24*8 in Shore- ditch, 26*3^in St. Mairylebone, 26*4 in Finsbury, and Holborn." 623. (Chairman.) Finsbury works out then as. the highest of houses below five rooms. Is there more over- crowding in theae rooms in Finsbury or in Stepney? The number of rooms is one thing, and the population in them is quite another. Just refer to Finsbury at nag* 59. Take the highest in Stepney, and you get four persons in one room in 1,734 cases, in Finsbury the figure is 648—less than half#—Yes, that is so. 6 (Major Evans^Gordon.) The overcrowding is not so - great according to these figures, though the four-room - tenement 'houses are more numerous. 624. (Chairman.) Finsbury has not anything like the total?—If your Lordships desired it I could easily pre- pare a statement showing the number of cases in the different boroughs where overcrowding exists; that is, where there are more than two persons for each room i in all the tenements below five; to be more precise, where there are more than two persons per one-room tenement, and more than four persons per two-room tenement, and more than six persons per three-room tenement, and more than eight persons per four-room tenement. I have not got that here, but if you desired me to do it, I could put it in. 625. Do you have like figures in your Census Office - for the rural districts?—Yes. 626. If you could also prepare a statement for those districts it would be useful, because some of the over- crowding in some of our rural districts is something disgraceful. If you could get us some information we should be glad of it, as to what is the condition of the Occupation of rooms in some of the rural districts, such a as Wiltshire or Dorsetshire, where wages are low, and let us know what that is ?—As soon as the tabulation is completed^ but I hope the Commission would not require that at present. 627. When would that be convenient?—I think that would not be until October, or some time in the autumn. I can have a special return made about some particular area, but I do not wish to throw the work of the census that is now going on out of gear if I can avoid it. 628. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I call your attention to the figures on page xi of the Summary, and you say to ■» your knowledge they are correct ?—They are correct. 629. With regard to these figures that you have given us : houses of four rooms and under, how are the figures ~ of the actual occupants of those rooms arrived at ?— The enumeration book which is sent to us by the Re- gistrars shows in each case the separate tenement, for which a separate schedule was returned. In tabulating for this particular table, the clerks have a sheet pre- pared so as to show the results as given in this table' and when they come across a case of ca J.' Vincent. 1 Marl902 ^aior Evans-Gordon.) I understand that you _1_ * were employed during the last Census as an enumera- tor ?—Yes. 699. How many houses did you visit?—25*4. 700. Whereabouts—in the East End ?—In the East End of London—Ely Terrace, Ernest Street, part of .Eton Place, and part of Duckett Street. 701. That is in Stepney?—Yes—White Horse Lane. 702. A good percentage of these houses were occupied by foreigners?—Yes. 703. What number of schedules did you leave at these houses ?—500.« 704. 254 houses and 500 schedules?—Yes, or there- abouts. 705. How many does that show per house—about two ?—About two. 706. What was the number of people enumerated in these 254 houses?—2,803. 707. That is an average of well over 11 persons to a house ?—Yes. 708. Will you tell the Commission what is the method adopted by enumerators; what have they got to do?—The enumerator in the first place has to go to the Registrar and receive his schedule papers with the different books—the enumeration book and his in- structions book. After that he goes round with the schedules and delivers them from house to house. If there are three or four tenants in one house he leaves a schedule for each tenant. 709. For each family?—Yes. After leaving schedules some two or three days, wherever it may be, he collects them. If I remember rightly, the 1st April last year was collecting day. He has to attend that day and col- lect all the schedules he has left at the various houses. After collecting the schedules he has to enumerate them in the enumeration book provided by the Registrar- General. making a copy of each schedule. 710. He copies out the schedule into a book?—Yes. 3d in; and Examinee. 711. A fac simile copy?—Yes, as it stands on the schedule paper. After that he makes a summary at the end of his book of the different males' and females' ages in the houses where the schedules are left. That makes one large summary. 712. Then are your duties finished?—After the de- livery of the books and the schedules to the Registrar of the district. 713. Then you have done with them ?—Yes. 714. As an enumerator, have you any power of check- ing the accuracy of the number of people entered in a schedule ?—No power whatever. 715. None ?—No. 716. You have to accept what they put down?— Certainly. 717. There is a penalty attaching to a wrongful entry, is there not ?-—Yes, £5. 718. Is it your duty to warn people of this penalty ? —Yes. 719. And you did so warn them?—Yes. 720. (Chairman.) It is a warning on the paper, is it not ?—Yes. 721. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Has the penalty ever been enforced, iso far as you know?—Not to my know- ledge. 722. No further notice is taken of any of the figures that you put in so far as you know ?—No. 723. What is the largest number of people you came across, going round, in one house ?—In one house in Vincent Street I came across 20 people. 724. How many rooms P—In a four or five roomed house. 725. You are not clear which?—No. 726. You do not remember how. many schedules yon left there?—No. 727. But there were twenty people, according to their r wn enumeration ?—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 37 728. As a-rule, how are the schedules filled up— are they done in a satisfactory way, "or are they difficult to make oiit ?—Very difficult to make out. 729. They are badly made out?—Yes. 730. What do you do when they are illegible P—Then the enumerator has power to make them out himself under the instructions of the head of the family. 731. He makes them out, and gives assistance?— Yes. 732. Did you in many instances do that?—In three or four eases. 733. Only three or four ?—Three or four. 734. When you did that, did the figures that you got correspond with the figures that they had already given ?—In one or two cases I found more given to me on my asking than were on the original schedule. 735. There were more when you enumerated them than there were on the schedule made out by the occupier himself ?—Yes. 736. With regard to foreign-inhabited houses, a great number of those you had were foreigners ?—Yes. 737. Would you say, generally speaking, from what you saw from your own observation, that the figures given were understated ?—I should think in some in- stances they were; but, of course, I have not any positive knowledge, only getting one or two of those schedules. 738. You have no power of finding out how many people live in these houses at all ?—No. 739. What sort of attitude did the foreign people take with reference to the Census—were they alarmed ? —Some of them were greatly alarmed. 740. At giving any information at all?—Yes. 741. What do you attribute that to?—Fear of a persecution. A policeman asked me how I was getting on, and he said it was a very difficult neighbourhood. I said, " Yes; very difficult indeed." He said, " Yes, there is a great fear; they know all about this, and there is the fear of a persecution, the same as is taking place in their own country." 742. (Chairman.) Bid they regard you as the per- secutor?—I do not know, my Lord. 743. (Major Evans-Gordon) They were in dread of some consequence resulting from it?—Yes. 744. Were they informed in Yiddish, and so on, and helped and assisted by leaflets, and so on ?—They had a Yiddish schedule. 745. Were they helped from outside?—They had leaf- lets left at the houses. 746. Now, with regard to the place of origin, did any people, in your opinion, return themselves as English people whom you had reason to believe were foreigners? —In several cases they returned themselves as English people, being born in Whitechapel, Bethnal Green, and Stepney, and they actually could not speak English. 747. They could just say where they were born?— Yes. 748. But they were obviously9 in your opinion, foreigners?—Yes. 749. And they returned themselves as English?— Yes. 750. You would say this generally, that there was in regard to these foreign people a palpable desire to conceal their origin; that they put themselves down as English if they possibly could ?—In many cases it was so—yes. 751. That was the conclusion you would draw?—Yes. 752. (Lord Bothschild.) You have no personal know- ledge that they wished to conceal their origin, but you took the papers as they gave them to you?—Yes, my Lord. 753. You hardly came in contact with the people themselves ?—Ohj yes, naturally. 754. Did you speak to them?—Yes. 755. (Chairman.) In what language ?—In the English language. 756. (Mr. Vallance.) In collecting these schedules, did you find that a considerable number of them had been made out clearly and intelligently ?—Yes. 757. Bv children who had been at the Board schools ? —Yes. 758. Or by the co-workers outside?—Yes. 759. Was it in many cases that they were greatly alarmed?—In numerous cases. , 760. But they had already been assured by the Jewish authorities, had they not ?—Yes, I think so. 761. And advised in every possible way?—Yes. 762. Have you knowledge of any other enumerator having had a similar experience ?—No ; we did not. cow* 111 contact with one another. 763. Have you any knowledge since?—No. 764. When you collected these schedules, where you found defective schedules, and you filled them up, as you were filling them up bad you any doubt in your mind as to the accuracy of those schedules ?—Not until I found one or two names added. 765. Who added the names ?-—They were given to me as added to the original schedule. 766. Did you add them, or were tliey added before they were given to you?—I will put it this way, if you. will allow me. The schedule is given to me, and, of course, the schedule is numbered 1, 2, down to so many. If it was unreadable, I had to take the instruc- tions from whoever gave me that schedule, and in two or three cases I found more names than were on the original schedule. 767. (Chairman.) But given in by the person who ought to have made the return ?—Yes. 768. You are not suggesting any foul play?—Cer- tainly not; that may have happened by their not sleep*- ing in the house that particular night, and coming home in the morning; but I could not exactly get that out. 769. At all events, you had no reason to conclude that it was from design?—No. 770. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you any reason to sup- pose that the schedules given to you were to any very great extent inaccurate?—No. 771. (Chairman.) Do you find any considerable num- ber of those people who do not speak English at all ?— Several; they can speak a small amount of English, but several ran to their neighbours, and got their neighbours to come and explain to them what the schedule meant. 772. In what language were those returns which had to be tilled up framed?—Do you mean the Census papers ? 773. Yes?—In English; the instructions were in English, and the Census papers in Yiddish and German were delivered with the English Census papers. 774. Was it only in Yiddish and German?—Only Yiddish and German. The English Census paper was delivered, and with the English Census paper was a Yiddish and German Census paper 775. You had to discriminate, I suppose. If you came to a person named Smith you would not give him a Yiddish paper ?—No, my Lord. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I have got samples of the Yiddish papers liere. (Producing same.) 776. (Chairman.) Is this Hebrew or Yiddish?—This is Yiddish. (Lord Bothschild.) And this one is German in Hebrew characters. Mr. J> Vififtmt. 1 May 190& Mr. Alfred Henry Lovell, called ; and Examined.. 777. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You have acted as enumerator in Census work, too?—Yes. 778. In 1891 ?—In 1891 and 1901. 779. Where?—In Mile End Old Town in the first place, under Mr. Struthers, and on the last occasion under Mr. Dodson, in Spitalfields. 780. Had you to deal with many foreigners there ?_ A great many. Mr. A. M. Lovell. 1 May 1902.38 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: * ' Mr 781' Wh.at is your impression with regard to the Lovell. returns given by foreigners ?—I found the returns were • T ' fairly done. The Rabbi sent clerical people round to 1 May 1902. make them out. I only had some doubts about four or five cases that they were not properly made out. 782. Do you think the number of foreigners gene- rally would be understated in the house ?—In some cases they were, I believe. 783. What led you to think so ?—Simply from what the foreigners told me—that they had lodgers coming in late at night and going out early in the morning, and who were not enumerated at all. 784. You had no means of ascertaining yourself how many people inhabited these houses ?—I could not do it; no enumerator could. 785. You have to take what they tell you?—Most decidedly. 786. Had you difficulty in obtaining information generally?—No, they gave their information fairly well. 787. Did you notice any nervousness about the- foreigners there?—No, not in my division, 788. They were not nervous ?—No, they were not nervous. 789. Can you give me any information at all as to- what class of foreigners there are in Spitalfields ?—~ Polish Jews chiefly—very few Germans. 790. Well-to-do people ?—No, very poor. 791. (Mr. Vallance.) In the four or five cases in_ which you had reason to suspect that the enumeration was not complete, I take it that that suspicion was after the return was completed, was it not ?—It was. 792. May I put it in another form? Had you at the time of the collection of the schedules any suspi- cion that the returns were incomplete or inaccurate ?—•- I could not tell. I had it afterwards, and I did my" best to get at the truth. 793. If upon the collection of the schedules you had had any suspicion you would have pursued the matter- further, would you not ?—Most decidedly. Mr. Jack M. Myers, Mr. . Myers. Rothschild.) You were one of the enuineia- 1 May 1902. tors, were you not ?—No, my Lord, I was one of the - voluntary workers who helped. 795. Would you kindly explain to the Commission the work of the voluntary helpers, so that they should know 'exactly what 'took place?—The Whitechapel dis- trict was divided, I believe, into divisions, and a certain number of gentlemen who understood Yiddish, or who had a certain knowledge of Yiddish, went into each of these districts under the command of a gentle- man. The 'commander of my division was a Mr. Rafts ch, and he went round "with us, each person taking certain houses—every other house or so—and we asked the people if they would fill up the forms. If they could not fill up the forms themselves we asked them the exact particulars, and we tried to clheck -them as much as possible. As regards myself, I found I could ispeak Yiddish fairly well, buft when they did not understand what I meant the children came in. Of course, all the children understand English, and I asked them to ex- plain to the fathers, and they were very good inter- preters. I got what appeared to be exact information in each case, and, it being Sunday, the whole family were more or less at home and I was able to ascertain that this information was quite correct. I filled up the forms myself, and when the head of the family could not sign himself, he either signed in English or 1 signed for him. I went round to each room apparently, and I was able to satisfy myself that the particulars were correct. The particulars in every instance were most readily given. No questions were asked. The explana- tion was very simple ; and, in fact, they had circulars sen-t round to them in Yiddish, and they fully under- stood what they had to do. 796. Have you any reason to believe that the num- bers were understated ?—Not at all. They went over each name. When any name was left out the children said, "There is so-and-so," and they went right through the family. There was the head of the family, the wife, and so many , children ; in fact, there were a very large number of children, and in many cases there were nine or ten children, so that fact would not be understated. 797. There was no concealment of foreign nationality ? —Not at all. 798. And no fear of the Census?1—No, absolutely none. Apparently they had received the papers which had been circulated and they had no fear whatever. 799. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you any reason to suspect any concealment as regards lodgers in the house?— No, I think not. In very many instances the names of the lodgers were given too, and where the names were not given I went upstairs myself into the rooms and asked the names of the lodgers. 800. And your efforts were directed towards ensuring a complete enumeration ?—Quite so. 801. (Major Jilvans-Gordon.) Whereabouts were you working?—In the district bounded by Fieldgate Street, which is in Whitechapel Road, and Plummer's Row. and two or three other streets in that district. 802. In the district of Whitechapel?—Yes. tiled; and Examined. 803. Have you worked among the people very much V —Yes, to a certain extent. I am a manager of the Brady Street Club for working boys in Whitechapel, and an officer of the Jewish Lads' Brigade, and have a very in- timate knowledge of the children. I know some hun- dreds of the boys in that district, and have an intimate- knowledge of the streets there and the ways of the people. 804. Have you in the course of your experience come across a desire on the part of these people of foreign origin to get upon the Register of Yoters ?—No, I know nothing about that at all. 805. They do not care about that ?—1 do not know. 806. You have never come across it ?—No, never. 807. You have not come across that at all ?—No. As. a matter o:f fact, I find they take very little interest at first in politics as politics, but the children are most enthusiastic as regards us. They.know all about things connected with this country, but the parents do not know, and they are quite indifferent. 808. Many of these people you come across know very little English ?—'Very little English, but generally you find that the children know English and speak English like natives. 809. (Chairman.) These children, I suppose,- over- five years of age, do attend the schools?—They attend- Board schools. 810. The same as English children?—Yes, and the Jews' Free School. There are 3,000 children at. the Jews' Free School, or more than 3,000, and seyeral of the Board schools are almost wholly composed of, Jewish children. 811. Are those children, so far as you can judge, kept in cleanliness ?—Exceedingly so ; in fact, if I • might say so, they are very much more so than the other children in the same district. They are very much brighter and very much cleaner, and altogether better than other children of the same age and standing in the district. 812. And as to intelligence?—They are very much more intelligent. 813. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Has there not been som«- considerable success lately in the case of Jewish children winning prizes ?—I believe so. In fact, the Board schools in the East End in which. Jewish children predominate—and' I have a knowledge of them—stand highest among the Board schools of the metropolis ; and I believe the Jews' Free School, according to the very latest report of the inspector, stand highest in London both among Board schools and Voluntary schools.. 814. (Chairman.) Among themselves what would be the language they use ?—English wholly. The children speak English. Some of them can understand their parents, but their language is English. They only speak Yiddish when they want to interpret for their' fathers and mothers. 815. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They mostly can speak Yiddish?—In some instances. I find when the fathers and mothers come up they speak English too, and they have always addressed me in Enolish. I am a Guardian >f Apprentices of the Jewish Board of Guardians, and:MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 39 I have gone round sometimes, and I find they always speak English to me, but they speak Yiddish among themselves—I am speaking of the parents. 816. {Chairman.) I suppose, in the case where these Polish . Jews do not speak English, -but only Yiddish, they must communicate with their children, and the children must talk their own language?—I find that even the parents speak English to the children very often. 817. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Those are not the new arrivals. Do you come across ma ay >f them ?—A fair proportion. 818. They do not know English at all in many in- jf stances ?—I have found boys coming up in my company J, M. Myers. of the Lads' Brigade who cannot speak English well, but — who take up the work in a most enthusiastic spirit. Last 1 year, in Deal, where we had 500 boys down in camp, ' . ' we took a census, and we found over 75 per cent, of the boys there were of foreign parents, and that a very considerable number were boys born abroad, but in several respects boys born abroad and boys born here of foreign parents, and boys born here of English parents, were exactly the same—they looked just like English boys. That is most remarkable. 819. Do you mean in appearance ?—In 'appearance and manners, and in many other respects. Mr. /Thomas Hawkey, called m ■ and Examined. Mr. T. Hawkey. 820- {Chairman.) I believe you are employed in the Customs House?—Yes. 821. What is your position?—Examining officer, second class. 322. Have you any duties to discharge in connection with the arrival of t'heise immigrants in the Port of London?—Yes ; I go on board the vessel's from Ham- burg, Bremen, and Rotterdam, bringing these- steerage immigrants, and I have to take particulars from them, first as to what means they possess, and then what their destinations are, both present and ultimate. 823. Have you an indication given to you of the arrival of the vessels with these immigrants on board, or probably on board?—Yes; the arrivals are regular. The arrivals from Rotterdam 'are three weekly with pas- sengers, and from Bremen three weekly, and from Ham- burg four weekly. 824. Do you know of the arrival of the vessels which periodically come into the port?—Yes, my Lord; they come on certain days. 825. How many come in> about a week?—Ten, and one from Libau, making eleven. 826. Is your investigation confined to any class of pas- sengers ?—Steerage passengers. 827. When you arrive on board the vessels do you receive any communication from the master?—I in- variably get the alien list, or a copy of the alien list, that he is obliged to furnish. 828. That is under the Act of 6th William IV. The master is obliged to furnish an alien list, and you set that from him?—Yes. 829. Having got. that, what do you proceed to do ?— Then I get the steerage passengers into their place. 830. What does that mean ?—Into the steerage; get them altogether into the place belonging to them, and take great pains about that, so as to get them all there. The ship's company invariably lend me some assistance, and then I call out the names from the alien list, and I speak to each one and .pass him out as I have done with him, till I have seen them all. 831. I want to see what your labours are. You say eleven vessels arrive in on© week?—Yes. _ 832. Do you board them all by yourself?—No; there is another officer employed, who does the Rotterdam boats. He attends the steamers from Rotterdam. 833. How many would that be out of the eleven?— Three steamers, but four arrivals, because one steamer makes two arrivals in one week. So there are four arrivals of the Rotterdam boats. 834. You have seven steamers to look after?—I have eight, really, because I have four Hamburg boats, three Bremen boats, and the Libau steamer. 835. Do you take the Sunday in as a day of work ?— Oh, yes; I have to work ail days. 836. A fraction more than one per day ?—Yes. 837. You have told us you go into the steerage, and jrou are calling over the list. What do you call out from fclhe list?—I call the name first. 838. Only ?—Only. Then the passenger presents him- self, and I ask hikri wtat his occupation is and where he is going—whether to London, or further. 839. Do you ask him where he comes from?—Yes, I do, but not always, because most come from Russia. Hiey are mostly Russians and Poles who arrive by these There are a few Austrians and * May 1902. ships in the steerage. Roumanians. 840. What language do you address them in?—In Yiddish—their own language. I do not speak much, but just sufficient to do my work amongst them. Out- side that I have no knowledge of it. 841. Can you understand what they say in reply?— Yes. 842. §uppose you find a person talking Yiddish, do you assume he is a Russian ?—No; the alien list states he is a Russian, and then I ask him occasionally, but I do not ask him always. 843. So far as you know, are the lists given to you accurate ?—I find them so nearly always. The excep- tions are so rare as scarcely to be worth mentioning. I have found a mistake in the list, but it is very rare. 844. You examine from this list Do you take any- thing down?—Oh, yes, I take notes of all the particulars that I am sent there to collect. . 845. What are you sent to collect—what par- ticulars ?—I may, perhaps, read this document. This is a copy of a Treasury Minute, No. 9999, of 1891, issued on the 1st July. It requests information respecting the class called pauper aliens. (1) The number; (2) whan means they have as far as can be ascertained; (3) their im/med&ate destination, liaaneily, within the port; (4) what arrangements, if any, have been made for their reception on landing, as far as can be ascertained; (5) their ultimate destination as far as can be gathered. Those are the points that I question them upon." 846. Anything as to means ?—I do question them as to means, because No. 2 is, " What means have they 847. Do you take the answers down in writing in respect of each passenger ?—Yes ; I put them into a note- book, and then return them from the note-book after- wards to the Board of Tride. 848. Take any vessel you like. Take a Bremen vessel. How many of these steerage passengers do you find in one vessel?—In the winter time there are not so many as in the summer. I suppose they 'Would probably average sixty. 849. You take these particulars in respect of the whole sixty and enter them in the book and make a return ?—Yes. 850. To whom ?—To the Board of Trade. I have a return for this week. 851. Is it a mercantile return, or what is it headed? As a Customs House officer you would not be answerable to the Board of Trade; but is this by arrangement, or' order, sent to the Board of Trade ?—The return gives the particulars required by the Treasury Order which I have quoted, and is headed simply with the number of the order by the Board of "Customs, namely, G.O. 22/1894, under which it is sent to the Board of Trade. 852. You were told to hand them in to the Board of Trade ; did you do it ?—Yes. 853. Direct to the Board of Trade ?—Direct. 854. When you meet these steerage passengers, what sort of condition do you find them in if they come lo^g distances ?—In fairly good1 condition. 355 ?—What do you mean ? What state are they in as to cleanliness ?—I think they are clean. 856. Compared with an ordinary English workman, if he had travelled two or three days on the railway and had had a sea voyage, does anything peculiar strike you as to40 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : . Mr. these men?—I do- not think they are more uncleanly j. Hawkey, than any other similar class of people. Undoubtedly the 1 M idno accomm°dation on the ships on which they come is not of ^ the best,travelling steerage as they do; it is better now than, iro used to be, very muich, since the German Govern- ment brought these vessels bringing emigrants to London under the emigrant regulations, so that they are on the same footing as are the vessels of the Hamburg- American line, the trans-Atlantic boats. There is now more accommodation for these people, and they are much better now (than they were whon I first bad to do this work, no doubt. 857. I am speaking particularly of the people who talk Yiddish and Russian Poles. Do you observe anything peculiar as to their want of cleanliness or their condition generally ?—As to their persons, I do not see they are . any more uncleanly man any other similar clas.^ of r. people. 858. What as to their means? Do you think they -teill you frankly what their means are?—Yes, I am surprised that- they tell me so much, as there is iu> obligation laid upon them. I think it is astonishing that I see as much means as I do among them. 859. When you ask theim their means, will tihey simply say they have got so much money, or in what way do they frame their reply?—I ask, "tow much money 'have you ? " They tell me, and I ask them to produce it. I only return to the Board of Trade the sums of money I actually see. 850. Do you get many refusals, and do they say that they will not show it ?—I have never heard anyone refuse to show me money if he has it. 861. In the first place, do you find any of theim totally without means ?—-Oh, yes. 862. Positive pauperis, or positively impecunioiis ?— They represent themselves to be entirely without means, and as luaving no money. 863. Can you give us any sort of proportion of that nuimlber?—If I take last 'year, the year which is ended now, the 31st Maircih, I have here an average for the passengers arriving from Hamburg, Bremen, and Biot- terdiam. I have an average per adult. In making this calculation, I take two children as one adult. Ilt is not per head. 864. Man, wife, and two children, ihow is that?— That is three adults. Per adult I have seen 24*20 marks for the whole year. 865. Per adult ?—That is per adult. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It seems to me that we have come across something here that we did not know -any- thing about before; it is a comprehensive return handed to the. Board of Trade. 866. (Chairman.) We have taken evidence upon it be- fore. Over what period and what number of persons is that average taken ?—For the class spoken of as pauper alieos, destitute aliens, travelling in the steerage, noit for any others. From April, 1901, to March, 1902. 867. That is the last year ?—That is the last year. The steerage passengers for that period are 62 per cent, of the total arrivals by those steamers. 868. Does that average represent your whole steerage passengers for that time ?—Yes. 869. 24*20 per adult, has it increased or decreased of late years?—'For the previous years—I have them for eight years ; I keep abstracts by me of the returns, which I forward to the Board of Trade. The previous year the average was 21*21; for 1899 the average was more, 25-87 ; for 1898 the average was 33*3, and then for the year before that it was 25*1, and for the year previous 28*0. If I take the average for the eight years, it amounts to 26 marks. 870. We will get this return. please. How many of your officers are there in the United Kingdom that fulfil your duty ?—Only at the port of London is this duity, clone, because only at the port of London do these steerage passengers 'arrive in -such numbers. Steerage passengers arrive ait the northern ports, but they are through passengers to America ; they are mostly .trans- migrants. 871. Are there only two of you officers, do I under- stand ?—Only t^wo. " 872. Boitih of whom have to make returns that- go to- the Board of Trade ?—I make all the returns. 873. If we get a return from the Board of Trade, it will be your return?—It is my return. 874. (1Major Evans-Gordon.) Wrill there be a return, at Harwich?—Yes, I believe since 1900 they have made a return from Harwich. 875. There is am official at Harwich to do it ?—I think the ordinary officers do it at Harwich. They incor- porate this with their other work. 876. (Chairman.) Were you an ordinary officer?—- Yes, I am an ordinary officer, but I am specially told off to do this work ; I do no other Customs work other than this. 877. It comes in the regular routine ?—Yes. 878. I slhould have said a special officer. There is. no special officer at all at Harwich to do this work, but only in London ?—Yes. 879. Where do these vessels arrive at in London?— At. St. Katharine's Docks—the Bremen boats, and two- of the Hamburg boats arrive at St. Katharine's Docks, and the two other Hamburg boats lie in the river, oppo- site St. Katharine's Docks at Horselydown, and the Hotter dam boats go through the Tower Bridge to the- Custom House quay. 880. WThen the steerage passengers go through this examination, they would have to be landed. Where- would they land ?—Officers from the Jewish. Shelter at Leman Street meet the passengers on their 'arrival, and either take them to their address, or see they are put in the hands of those whom they consider trustworthy to be taken to addresses. 881. These officers from the Jewisih Shelter board the* vessels ?—Yes. 882. I suppose when you are there, and when you. are going through the process they are there?—Yes,, when the boats arrive at London. 883. I suppose they come in an aiding and kindly spirit to meet these people?—Yes. 884. Do they bear any expense of their landing or •taking them away, or do these passengers pay for it themselves ?—If the immigrants are so poor as net to- have the means, I have known these officers pay for them, but it is not often that the immigrant is so abso- lutely without means as not to be able to pay hi& fare on tsihore, whuidh is only sixpence. 885. Do you know at all what becomes of them after they land, from your own knowledge ?—Do you mean as to whether they go further ? 886. Supposing they are not en route, but they are- going to stay here, you would, not, I suppose, know any- thing more as to what becomes of them?—No. 887. You see them over the ship's side, and you have- done with them in your official caipacity ?—Yes. 888. Do you find any of these passengers avowedly are not going to remain here,, but aire going on further afield ?—-Yes, some of them have through tickets to America by different lines. 889. Do they tell you that they have got through tickets ?—Yes, and produce them, and then they are classed differently. If they do not produce through tickets, I have a column in the return for transmigrants without through tickets. 890. If they do not produce a through ticket, why do you oalll them transmigrants—is ilt because they say- so, or what is it ?—There are some who pay their fares to America to agents in Russia, and do not receive from these agents through tickets. 891. What do they receive?—Simply the address of an agent in London. 892. They have to land in London, to go to the agent's- office ?—Yes, to get the through ticket to America. 893. May that be from Southampton or Liverpool, where the ship representing the through ticket starts ? —Yes, it may be either from Southampton or Liverpool' —mostly from Liverpool. 894. So of necessity they must land ?—Yes. Now, I believe it is wholly from Liverpool—-absolutely from Liverpool. These people do not go via Southampton; now ; they used to some years ago, but now these people go. by the Beaver Line of steamers, which sail! fronn liiverpool.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 41 895. That depends on the line and the rate they take them at?—This class of transmigrants who come to this country >and wish to proceed at once to America, must go by the Beaver Line, unless they change their names, and then they can go by other lines. 896. I suppose officially you see nothing of these people as they continue their journey?—No. 897. You are only representing the Customs at the Mr. port of reception ?—Yes. T. Hawkey* 898. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You said just now, unless —~ they change their names. Do they ever change their 1 May 1902. names?'—Yes, from the facts that have come to my knowledge, but, at second hand always. I have no personal knowledge as to that. What knowledge I have as to it comes second hand. FOUfiTH DAY. Monday, oth May, 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford {Chairman). Lord Rothschild. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p.. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. William Vallance, Esq, Mr. Arnold White, recalled ; and Examined. 899. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What you have told us about -Russia is from personal observation %—Almost entirely. 900. The purport of that part of your evidence, as I Tinderstand, was rather to suggest the reason why there should be a serious question here?—I had two objects. The first was as you state, and the second was to show the condition in which those people are necessarily placed before they arrive in this country. 901. In other words, the tendency of your evidence about Russia, or rathetr the purport of it, was to show a tendency for poor persecuted Jews to emigrate here, and an inference to be drawn from their condition there that When they arrive; here they would be- in a desti- tute condition ?—That is so, subject to the qualification that the expulsive effect of the persecution is not the most important cause in bringing them here. 902. What do you say is ?—I will give you the answer, if you will allow me, in the words of the Jewish Board of the Hamburg boats arrive at St. Katharine's Docks, question of connecting this matter of alien immigration with anti-Semitiism had been suggested the Jewish Board of Guardians issued the following circular, on the- language of which I rely for the answer to your question: " Fbr the past four years this Board has been much perplexed by the constant and ever-increa/s- ing influx of poor Jews from the East of Europe. Of these poor immigrants a small minority of skilled artisans or industrious traders driven hitherto by per- secution have become permanent settlers, and will, doubtless, become in the course of time a useful addition to this country. A still larger number of immigrants of a similar class have been forwarded by us and a-nother charitable body to America, where the great bulk have already attained a fair degree of success1." These are the significant words I want to draw attention to: " But the great majority of immigrants who have lately arrived have unfortunately consisted of wandering mendicants or adventurers who, unaccustomed to any handicraft, and being useless members of society in their own country, .have begged their way from town to< town and gravitated to London, the ceni re to which so many have been attracted by delusive hopes. In this country where, in consequence of the congested state of the labour market, there is the greatest difficulty for even skilled foreign artisans to find employment, these poor wanderers have been unable to discover a means of support, and after a short sojourn, in many instances have wended their way to the United States, but only to be promptly returned by the American authorities as useless tramps or paupers. These and others, unable here to find a footing, have, after a few months linger- ing oil the verge of starvation, begged to be assisted to return to thiedr native land, which they thus reach after great privation, and after great expenditure of the 6144 gifts of the charitable, in the same state of misery and destitution as when they left it. But no sooner have these left than their place is promptly taken by new batichas of immigrants asi hopeless and helpless as the last, who, after the failure of all efforts to raise them- selves above pauperism, have at length, like their pre- decessors, and at their own urgent request, to be assisted home." Mr. A. White.. & - 'ay 1902. 903. Whalt is the date of that?—'The 13th of June, 1888. That was handed in by Mr. Lionel L. Alexander, as a copy of the circular issued by the Board of Guardians for the relief of the Jewish poor. My point is this; that since that circular was written the quality of the immigrants has not improved. 904.1 should like to ask you as to that first. We have now passed from Russia, and aire now in England. Do you speak as to the quality of those men from your own observation ?—'From observation, if you are allow- ing me to include the synagogues which have been pui up in the prisons since. £K)5. (Lord Bothschild.) We have nothing to do with the synagogues of the prisons ?—I do submit that if I am to give evidence, no Royal Commissioner -should con- tradict me when I am not able to cross-examine him. The Times in reporting my former statement, reports Lord Rothschild, but excludes all I say in reply. I submit that is noit equitable. 906. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What I want to get very care- fully is that information which you can vouch for from your own knowledge and own observation, and that which you ask us to infer from various reasons and sug- gestions. Of course that extract which you have read us, in 1888, points, so far as I could gather it from your reading, to an increase in the arrival in London of desti- tute Jews. What I want to know is whether you have ever made yourself acquainted with the circumstances since 1888 upon that topic ? May I say what I have done in order to try and get at the facts ? I have paid personal and private visits to every magistrate to whom I could get access. I do not know whether I am authorised to give their names but I will submit a list of names of magis- trates whom I hope your Lordships will call, and in conversation with those magistrates I have gathered that the quality of these immigrants has not improved since 1888. I do not asseat that it has deteriorated, but I am not able to say that it has improved. That is one line that I have taken. Another source of informa- tion, upon which I rely, are the publications of the Russo-Jewish Committee, which I believe has been formed since 1888. 907. (Lord Bothschild.) I think the Russo-Jewish Committee was formed in 1892 ?—I think so. 908. I am not sure, but I know it was since 1888?— FROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: . , xes,^"'1 stiSmitffced'to theiloyal Coiriihissioners on the Kite, last occasion, an extract. I ha^e always endeavoured ~ , '"tb e^ploy the lahguage of unchallenged authorities 1902. frtan meihibersi tif 'the J&vrish Conimittee, and I used an extract in ^heJ language of Mr. N. 8. Joseph in con- trasting the;%11alify • 'of^hese^ itoimigraaits' with- the* im- migrants who came in after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes. 909. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It occurs to me that there might be evidence of far greater precision obtainable? —Of course there is. 910. And open too ?—Certainly. 911. For instance, as you have quoted the case in 1888 referring to London, there are surely .statistics of Eauperism in Whitechapel, or in the East End of ondon to which reference might be made?—We are using pauperism in two different senses. You are re- ferring to pauperism in the English legal sense, and I am referring to pauperism as it exists in a country where there is no Poor Law, but where all the condi- tions of pauperism are present. 912. {Chairman. Pauperism, in the sense of " relieved by the rates," is one thing, but there is an immense amount of want relieved by the Jewish Charity and the Board of Guardians for the Jews which must come in under the head of pauperism?—Not under the English law. 913. I was saying Mr. Lyttelton must extend his view of pauperism to the relief which is given by the Jewish Board of Guardians ?—Certainly. 914. (Mr, Lyttelton.) I quite appreciate your distinc- tion. Now, take the legal sense, is it or is it not the fact that ^pauperism in the legal sense has greatly de- creased since 1888 P—That is so, but in the immigrant sense it has increased. . 915. We will come to that. There has been a great decrease in pauperism in the legal sense?—Ov#r the whole of the metropolis, accompanied by an increase of foreign immigrant pauperism. 916. And a great decrease in Whitechapel itself?-— < Yes. . •• 917. Now please develope your other point. Notwith- standing that decrease of pauperism, has there been an 1 ^increase of what you call destitution ?—There has been ^ an increase of destitution. First, in regard to legal pauperism, you have the figures bbfore you; 2,200 odd, speaking from memory* as immigrants. were relieved ? last year/ as against a comparative, trifle 10 years before As regards the other 1 bave no statistics, but the quantity is larger, the charities distributed by the Jewish communities are greater, and the appeals made to bene- volence are more extended. 918. That is a little loose.: Can you refer the Com- mission to any official document, Jewish or otherwise, which points to the destitution being greater though the pauperism is smaller?—May I be permitted to reserve my reply to that question ? 919. (Chairman.) Certainly, but I think we should get that from the Jewish charities ?—Certainly. 920. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Now just a question upon the no n-assimilation that you dwelt on at length last time. Do you refer what you call the refusal of the Jews to make a mixed marriage to religion or to race?—I refer it to both, and although we have in the case of the Romaa Catholics an almost equal repugnance, you have ■ not in the case of either the Roman Catholics or the Society of Friends, or any other religious class a line of • • - < cleavage of religion coinciding with the line of cleavage -• r. of.-Tace» :.-;Thai-is-iriy point. 921. So fat as what may be called orthodox Jewish Religion tends to become feeble, would you anticipate that the freedom in marriage will increase ?—I should anticipate a greater freedom, but I notice such a matter . of notoriety as the will of the late Sir Julian Goldsmid, who, if my memory serves me rightly, expressly dis- inherited his daughters in the event of their marrying a Christi'aii, by which I understand him to mean an Englishhian— 922. {Lord Rothschild.) No, not an Englishman ?—He was living in England—it was an English will. /; 923. (Chairmm.) Any Christian, French or German? —Yes, naturally;; but I am answering your question. Now I understand that this practice which was contained in a clause in the late Sir Julian Goldsmid's will is by rio means an uncommon practice, and therefore the tendency to maintain a cleavage race is reinforced by the hereditary and religious customs. 924. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You said you did refer the dis- like of making mixed marriages partly to religioua orthodoxy, and you also said that orthodoxy, if it tended to diminish, would tend to relax that dislike to some extent?—Yes, so far as it operated, but it would leave the racial question. 925. Have you made any investigation at all of the question as to whether the Jews that now come into East London are more or less orthodox?—The whole effect of my investigations, so far as they have gone, and they will be spoken to by any Zionist witness you may call, is to the effect that, as a whole, the Jews who are in are highly orthodox. 926. That does not coincide with some things I have read, but that is your view ?—It is. I am speaking of Russia and Poland. 927. Have not you heard that the class lately coming into London, and which you have described as some- what the residuum, do not belong to the orthodox class, and are not guided much by religious motive?—Only the mendicant and hawker—the very lowest. 928. Is your case, the heads of which you have given to us, against the immigration of Jews at all, or of foreigners at all into East London ?—Absolutely not- I should greatly regret to see the immigration stopped at all. I am only protesting, and all my life I have only protested, against the people who are injurious to this country, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 929. Certainly; I did not mean you were attacking the Jew more than any other foreigner except from the circumstances which you think justify you in doing so. My point is do you draw a distinction between the immigration of the Jews and foreigners and that of desti- tute foreigners and Jews ?—Using the. word " Unde- sirable" in the Johannesburg sense——• 930. (Chairman.) What is that sense ?—The Hon. Member will tell your Lordship better than I can what, that sense is. 931. (Mr., Lyttelton.) Is it the destitute that you do not desire ? Everybody objects to the presence- of undesirables, but whether you can exclude them or not is another matter. Is the weight of your complaint against the arrival of destitute Jews or foreigners ?— The word destitute has seemed to me of late years an unscientific term, because a man may be destitute of money and. richly endowed with brains or high moral qualities, or he may be a Sandow, or he may be able to shoot very straight and yet be destitute of money,, and therefore, personally, I have abandoned the wordy or endeavoured to' abandon it and I use the word " un- desirable," meaning not necessarily a man who has no money, but a man who is not likely to enrich the Eng- lish race. 932. 'That seems to embrace a very wide- circle of the community. Is that really what you wish to say ?-— I do. 933. You are for prohibition but you do not make the test poverty or destitution ?—No. 934. You are quite sure of that?—Quite certain of it- I have altered my view about that since 1888 by what i have seen in Russia. 935. May T ask, as one who will have a share in drawing up the report, 'how you would suggest that we should define this large class whose test is not to be poverty or destitution ?—Not only. 936. How should we do it?-—I am not a Commissioner^ but I suggest to you th4t you .should have a medical examination* and that any man who is physically unfit you should exclude on the same grounds as the United States exclude him. 937. I quite understand that ?—May I finish, because I want to get this point on the notes. • A great deal has. been made of this point that only 365 immigrants have been returned from the United States during the last year. Now, that is true, but as Wheatley said, " What is hit is history, and what is missed is mystery." We do not know how many people were prevented from going by thiat legislation ; therefore, while you have only 365 returned as being likely to become a public or private charge you have, at any rate, kept out a certain number of the people who do not lend themselves to those .statistics.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. m 938.u Perhaps that is a little wide of the question I was asking. I was asking the tests ^by which you would invite-u^- to; embark upon prohibition. I understand first th,at, destitution, is not your"test?—No.- ; 939. Then you were going on to say that. physical infirmity was to be a test ?—Yes—a medical test. . . ; 940; I's there any other ?—Yes, . I should have a Consular Certificate of fitness for emigration. 941. From whom?—(From the nearest Consul liii •Ikis$i% ^th&tr fche> man was- likely to become: a good English citizen. ;; 942i-•. Fro'ni • the1 nearest British- Consul 1-—Yes. 943. A condition precedent - to the arrival of any immigrant should be a certificate of fitness by the Consul ?^-*Yes;either,.* as: an artizan, or as likely tc fulfil some useful service to this country. We have not a prasie like America has. .. 944vfSave , any- other suggestion to make ?^I ;haye.a i,You rather- take > me unawares as ail this, comes under;vthe heady of Remedies, and I wa,S; imagining this would-not arise until the end. : j : o v 945/ No. The evil ik what I am dealing with. I want-- to "know 'first how you characterise it ?—My third' test Would be that the man should hot have been punished, or been in any way a criminal, or a men- 'dicant)' or a- person engaged in. undesirable trades, by which I mean anything to do with adultery,. or coining, ' or house of ill-fame^ or anything of that kind. ' T * 946. Does that-exhaust the^hariacteristics^ whicih you ,describe;?—I would, also include the whole, of the im,mi- grants who iiow j>ire; or 'who until recently *31d figure, upon a Board of Trade return; which I believe was re- garde^ as secret;- whose' appearance was peculiarly filthy. 947. (LordBoth'schild.) 'I;;have never iheard; of that ?-^- lt f>exist§:. A .question, was. put. in the House of Com- mons; about, it, and it is a fact. . Whether it. has been v »ba|i&nedr or not I do not know, but those returns must exist in the Board of Trade to-day. I would keep .all those out. , 948> I daresay such*a return- does exist, but I have never heard of it 2—It is only for the Port of. London,.51 believe v Then, fifthly, I would not admit any "man who ' has deserted his wife The crime of Wife-desertion is one which" I /believe is- onfthe increase, and, therefore; that is why I would: require a ■ consular certificate as to .the capacity of the proposed immigrant to become a suitable citizen. ; 949. Perhaps we will ask Mr. Cohen when he comes as- to whether Wife-desertion is on the increase ?—I am not speaking of Jews, but I am speaking of wife-deser- tion £s a: whole. -I know what I am saying when I speak ' about my own* countrymen.~ It is on the increase. J ' '950: (Mr. Lyttelton.) Supposing theseother ^features io ;be! absent, would you object to letting in a foreigner who" wis" 'destitute I wish to answer you absolutely openly, and not to fence with the question at all. That ntuit "depend 6n-the condition of industrial employment in this country. If my countrymen are suffering from want of work; and you ask me would I let in able7bodied « foreigners to ■ comp ete - - with • . them, on economical ; grounds'—on the . lower grounds—I would not, just as I am-in favour of certain measures of protection. On the economical ground, I would not let them in} but I do not think that comes within the purview of this Com- mission. " ■ ' 951. (Chairman.) I think it does ?—I am very glad to hear that it does. 95&. We must consider it, because it affects the whole question ?—I am glad to hear it. Examined by Mr. Norman. 953. I want to ask you, in the first place, if you would suggest to the Commission where, in your opinion, we should best find evidence as to the quality.of immi- grants, a point on which, you. have laid great stress in your statement think the ' best evidence would be that of three of the London magistrates, shrewd men of •the i world, not prejudiced; and thoroughly acquainted 1 with the facts.' T would takefal^o that of the police court missionaries—-a man like Mr. Holmes., a man of known ? -great;benevolence andrshrewdness., I do not know what • -his-opinion is,; but I should be very much impressed by it whatever it is. 954. In the second' place, we want, to know where, in your opinion, we should best look for evidence as to 6144 overcrowing ?—I should call the medical officer of the Mr. Stepney Borough Council. I should call the medical A. W{hify. officers of the adjacent borough councils, and I should — call the chairman of the housing committees. I should 5 May 1902. also call the honorary secretary, and the solicitor of the -—'" * Tenants' Protection Society. I think they would give you ,the evidence you require. -.955, Now you mi*de^a reference to the. traffic immi- grants into1 this : country, being under some sort of organisation ^Suspicion of organisation. - 956. Where do you . think we might . possibly«find evidence about that ?—>1 think you might repeat or recall some of the .evidence before the Sweating Commis- sion with reference to the bootmaking trade. I should think then most likely you will get what you want, although it is' a thing which it is very difficult to obtain, ind Jjrouman- offer ^inducement* - You cannot even do what I did :in 1888 ;; that, is to say, pay the passage to America oft people » who^liad ,• given their evidence, and were dismissed in consequence of their evidence. . 957i ^With'Tegard .to itMe Board of Trade methods of estimating the ihOVeinent of ■ alien immigration in • transit,vjl3 have-'rheardlysugge'stions of some so-called secrete list iteAe possession of the Board of Trade. Is ' thatuthe; list to?avhifch;ryou referred a? moment agO; in answer to. Ir.3 Ly tteltofr ?-r-It was. .r. 958. A list o£, peculiarly undesirables ?—As far as I ' remember ;the .words^ it was a list of . people u Whose •appearancewm remarkable ais peculiarly filthy." There is no dispute as/to. the. facts. They have been brought out, and. I can give you the reference. The question has been asked. , 959. Has. it been stated what was the object of the Board of Trade in compiling that list?—I cannot tell you. You had better ask them what their object was, but-1 can. tell; you.what the history of it was. Mr. Lind- sey, the collector of customs, at page. 44 of the Immi- gration Commission, in reply to this question, " Is there any means, of ascertaining whether these people remain here, , or go out of the country ? " said, " I do not think so." Now," if there was no means of ascertaining whether these people remained here or go out of the ; country/'seeing that they pass out of the hands of the Board of 'Trade when they leave the ship, it is equally clear they coui'd not make any difference between the .olasse^o£\i^/i'm;niig^antsi I was so impressed by that answer of Mr. Lindseyy that I took the following steps. A question was put to Mr. Lindsey about the possibility of distinguishing between the transmigrants and those « who came here to remain. After his evidence, I went ' to the Home Secretary, and I obtained permission to board every ship that passed'the Nore for a week, and this I did, and I did make a distinction between the two. I had two agents there day and night, and I went - myself, and the result of that work was, I believe, the ;'appointment of these two—Mr. Hawkey and the other gentleman, and that has been done ever since: and what has been done in London can be done elsewhere. - You will see -the f acts stated on page 62 of the evidence. 960. Now, I will go to a different point. What do -.was-the- ;ca>usev over-crowding ?-r-I think there is a danger in generalising on that question of quality. Im- migrants are divided into three classes, broadly. GoodMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 45 immigrants, who, far all practical purposes, and for their own purposes, are hard working, sober, law-abiding ■citizens. Then there are the people who come over in —-Mr. Joseph's words, and in the words- of the Jewish Board of Guardians, which I quoted—frankly as mendi- cants, and to cadge for the magnificent charity of Lord Rothsdhild. His Lordship's name its a great mag- net, believe me. The third class are the undesirables— the people, I want to particularly keep out; and, therefore, I think it is most dangerous to use any word which should .include the whole of the Jewish popula- tion in the East End, as though they could 'be described by a single epithet. 1002. Is there any other point that you would like, before we close this examination, to refer to, that may be of interest to us? I do not want you to leave out anything you wish to say. You have reserved one point, I believe ?—Yes. Examined by Mr. Vallance. 1003. I take it from your personal observation in Russia you have formed generally a favourable opinion of the Jewish community there and their characters?— The exact opinion I have formed is in evidence. I have nothing to add to it. 1004. You spoke of their considerable brain power and of their being industrious, temperate, and having domestic qualities ?—I was speaking of the people who were fit for colonisation. 1005. Whilst you paid that tribute, you submitted that we do not get in England the better class of Jewish people from Russia?—Might I respectfully ask you to give me the number of the question in which I said that. 1006. Question 376, " I suggest that the good charac- teristics of these immigrants are their great brain power and shrewdness, their industry, temperance, domes- ticity, and their great capacity for low living and high thinking, ambition and emulation, and almost universal desire to shine and get on, and stamina." Then your view is that the immigrants we get in England are the less worthy class ?—If you look at the text of this ques- tion you will see that I am analysing or attempting to analyse the qualities of the whole race who come here. 1007. (Chairman.) These immigants?—Yes. 1008. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Good, bad, and in- different?—I am attempting to give & conspectus of th« quality. 1009. {Mr. Vallance.) In visiting these settlement*, did you observe or form any opinion as to any special mental defect in the children, or any considerable portion of the children?—On the contrary, they were the brightest. They were more like the children of aris- tocrats. 1010. In viewing this question of immigration, I take it you do not regard the condition of things in the East End of London as the crux of the question. Yon do not regard the congestion of population as the only result ?—I am very fully on record about that already. I can only repeat on that point what I have already said. 1011. The congestion of population in the East End of London is not the only result; that is to say, there* are objections and there are injurious influences apart -from the congestion of population ?—I am on record here. 1012. Assuming for a moment these immigrants had been distributed throughout the country, and had not gravitated to one part, of course the question would not arise in the same acute form, but would it arise in any serious form in your mind ?—I wish to answer you with perfect frankness. You ask me what would happen if something did happen that has not happened, and is not likely to happen. The whole point is that they do congregate, and, if they did not congregate, the question would not arise at all. 1013. (Chairman.) The question is hypothetical. It is a perfectly proper question ?—The question would not arise ,at all—obviously not. 1014. (Mr. Vallance.) What I want to get at is whether in your view this question of overcrowding is a necessary result of alien immigration ?—Yes. 1015. You regard it as such ?—Yes. 1016. Would you like to make any observation on the evidence which has been already given in regard to the Census?—I should like to ask permission to make one comment on the correspondence which you read with Mr. Reginald Macleod. I gather from that correspond- Mi. ence that Mr. Reginald Macleod and yourself were quite A. White. satisfied with the accuracy of the Census, and the point —— , I want to make is this, that a Census paper, whether in 5 May 1902. Yiddish or in English, is signed by the head of the house--- hold. If illegal overcrowding existed in the house, the head of the household would be signing evidence that would bring him under prosecution by the English law, and yet we are told that the Census was accurately taken 1017. (Mr. iAjttelton.) It would make him liable to prosecution, which is a rather different thing ?—He is asked to sign a paper, which 'makes him liable to prose- cution under the law. 1018. But they do not prosecute?—I only make the point for what it is worth. 1019. (Mr. Vallance.) Are you not aware that those papers were to all intents and purposes confidential papers, except with regard to the numbers and the analysis of numbers ?—If they were confidential, where was the check, and where was the accuracy. 1020. I mean confidential in the sense that no conse- quences should ensue to the householder ?—-At all events, theTe is such a thing as illegal overcrowding, and in his evidence the enumerator who came here mentioned cases of illegal overcrowding. 1021. I take it you have had considerable experience as chairman of the housing committee of your council m regard to the question of overcrowding ?—No. I have only been chairman eighteen months. 1022. Is it within your knowledge that there have been proceedings taken under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts?—Proceedings have been taken where there is some place for the evicted people to go» to ; but it is impossible to take proceedings unless there- is a body ready to receive them. Lord James put a question to that effect. You cannot evict unless you;. have some place for the dispossessed people. Examined by Sir Kenelm E. Digby. 1023. I should like your assistance to define the- questions which probably will come before the Com- mission. I suppose, most people at all events would agree, that there are very considerable evils to be met , arising from this immigration ?—I think so. 1024. I suppose there would be general agreement as to that?—I cannot say. 1025. We will assume that for the present. difference of opinion would be to some extent as to the causes of these evils, overcrowding and so on, and you attribute everything to immigration ?—No. 1026. Nearly everything?—No. Please do not try to ask me to express what I do not mean. 1027. I have got an answer of yours in my mind. Iix the East End you attribute the evil of over-crowding .to* the foreign immigration ?—To a large extent. 1028. To a veiy large extent. In fact, you went so, far as to say that in the East End, if there were no im- migration there would be no over-crowding?—I think that is so. I think I said it about Stepney. 1029. Then the extent of the evil people would pro- - bably not agree upon. 1 am trying to see what ques- tions we have got to inquire into, and I am not ex- pressing or indicating any opinion. There are differ- ences of opinion as to the extent of the evil and as to > the cause of the evil ?—I believe that is so. 1030. I ask you whether there are not serious differ- ences of opinion as to the extent of the evil and as to the cause of the evil ?—I believe that is so, but I Have no special knowledge. 1031. And, of course, still more differences of opinion as to the remedies ?—I suppose that is so, but I have no more knowledge than the man in the street. t i?3?/ 1 ?° not wan,t to 2° over the ground which Mr. Lyttelton has gone over before, although I intended to ask you some questions to the same effect. You have given a great deal of attention to the question of reme- dies, and, m fact, so. far as I understand from your answers to Mr. Lytfclefcon, you would have in some form or another an inquiry into every case ?—In the place of origin. Broadly, I would do whatever is necessary to stop the immigration. j. 1031' 1 waJ?t to. see what means can be adopted to ™migrati<>n. I gather from your answers to Mr. ljyttelton what you would recommend would be a consular inquiry into every case ?—Yes.46 KOYAL COMm^SlO^ ON "ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr\ 1034. I am coming to your Bill presently. I see you A, White, are anticipating what I was going to ask. You have 4 submitted yourviews to that most stringent of all tests, 5 May 1902. by putting them in the form of an Act of Parliament ?— ---Yes. • 1035. Which is in your book on the modern Jew ?-— Yes. ' ;; - ; - ' ' 1036. Do you adhere to that ?—No. 1037. (Chairman.) Is the Bill Withdrawn I1—It was never submitted. 1038. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It was submitted to the public?-—It was with the object of trying to put the ideas itito a practical form. I would make it more stringent now. 1039. Many of us know that that is the most severe test that a thing can be put to. However, if you say you have abandoned it I will not deal with it ?—I have not abandoned it, but I Would make it more stringent. - 1040. It does raise the question, and it may not be waste of time- to go through the main points of it. After a recital that the object is to prohibit the coming into this realm of such alien, unskilled, diseased, or incapable paupers as are likely to become a public or, private charge, and for that purpose to amend and ex- tend the provisions of the Act for the registration of aliens, passed in the sixth and seventh years of his late Majesty William IV.; you propose that: "The master of' any vessel which, after the com- mencement of this Act> shall arrive in this realm from foreign parts, shall not permit the landing of any alien from such vessel at any place within the realm until the isaid master shall have given to the chief officer of Customs at the port of arrival the declarar tiori in writing required by the second section of the principal Act, nor until he shall have received from the said chief officer permission to allow the land- ing of the said alien." Then, "when the chief officer of Customs has reason to think or suspect that among the .aliens on board any such ship there are any un- skilled,* diseased or incapable paupers, or persons likely to become a public or private charge, he shall inquire into,, the present and probable future means of living of every such alien." You there put everything the -chief officer of Customs ?—Yes. The Way in which I * would amend this Bill now is that, while I would main- tain that clause, I would also have a consular certificate. 1041. Is not that a very great burden to put either -on the consul or the chief officer of Customs ?—It is a much'less burden than the immigration is on the people. 1042. That is not the question I asked. The ques- tion is, whether it is practicable ?—I think so. I have talk^dkt overwith many' consuls.r> I think they would h&ve t6 he paid veiry much better than they- are now. 1043. You think a consul ought to hold an inquiry in each'fcaset—^No, I do not think it would, be neces- sary. think many intending -immigrants would be deterred from desiring to come, because they would know they would have to get consular certificates. The# there would be a class of those who would still want/to: come, and the onus probandi would lie on such a person to prove that he was a fit immigrant, and un- less he could, do that the consul would .take no notice. He would; have to show that his name: was free from the police lists, and there is a very thorough police ^system, as you know, throughout Russia. 1044. Just look at the fifth Section of your pro- posed Bill. " This Act shall not apply to any fugitive criminal who is exempted from extradition by the Ex- tradition Acts of 1870 and 1873, not to any person who has been expelled from his country or home on account of his religious faith, or who has been threatened With persecution on account of such faith', not to jany . liiember -of the family of any such person accompany- ing him ? "—Certainly. 1045. Would you have that decided by the consul ?— Certainly, but. I would see that the consul Was English. That is why I think it is so important to have English consuls, so as to maintain these traditions of letting any persecuted person come, over freely. 1046. At present your tribunal would-be the consul in. the port, or the officer of Customs here ?—Not necessarily the consul in the port. . ; 1047. tWherever he is?^-Yes, and the master of the ship and the officer of the Customs.. ■ • - > 1048. The master of the ship has nothing to do except to obey the decision of the officer of Customs ?— Yes. * ^ 1049. And you would have no appeal ?—That I would leave to wiser heads than mine. I do not object to an appeal if you will pass the Act. 1050. That, as amended, is your final view ?—-I think there are other things besides that. , 1051. What are they ?—Had not we better take those when all the evidence is before you? I would rather reserve them to the end. 1052. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I think this is rather premature, because you have not referred to this in your evidence yet ?—-No,, this is not in evidence. 1053. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is in evidence now?— It was not before. 1054. I will take it from you at present, subject to anything you may wish to say further, that your remedy for the evils which you believe to exist is a Bill framed on the lines shortly stated in your book as amended by what you have said to-day?—Yes. 1055. I understand from your answers to Mr. Lyttel- ton that poverty is only an element in the reasons for exclusioii. You would not necessarily exclude a man simply because he is poor ?—No. 1056. You want to take into consideration whether or not he is 'likely to become a good citizen?—Yes.-'' '• 1057. Is vour chief reason for excluding the class of immigrants which we are now immediately dealing with what you call the aloofness of the Jew, by which'I mean that he does not mix with other people, but remains separate and apart from the life of the country ?—il think it is a great danger, or, rather, I should say, it is 1 a future danger. 1058. The reason of that, you have said, is"first of all, that he does not inter-marry ?—That is th£ principal thing. 1059. Do you put other customs, such as the observ- ance of the Sabbath, high ?—No. 1060. How about the next generation, because that seems to me, from what I have read of the&e matters, one of the points of difference between you and others. Many writers, as far as I observe, seem to say that in the next generation this aloofness, to a great extent, dis- appears P—I do not find it so. 1061. I will just ask you whether you agree with this book, to which you have yourself referred—" The Jew in London." It contains two essays, one by Mr. Rus- ' sell, and one by Mr. Lewis, and the passage I am going r to refer to is on page 23 : " The ' Anglicising' process, ' however, cannot be said to be very widely or thoroughly effective, except in the case of t'he rising generation. Here the transformation effected by an-Ehglish training • is astonishing in its completeness. All the children who pass through an= elementary school'm.ay! be said to grow up into 4 English Jews' ; and in this phrase there 'is implied almost a world of difference. This, in fact, • is one of the central features of the whole Anglo-Jewish question. There appears to be almost a stronger line of severance between the English and foreign Jew than between the English Jew and Gentile." Then he goes on to say, a little later on, at pages 35 and 36, ^ Among the orthodox Jews of Whitechapel, the increasing laxity . and indifference of the rising generation is commonly recognised and deplored. As they grow up and make •money and mingle with Christians, they bring them- selves more and, more under de-judaising influences. They lose the sense of racial and religious separatene&s, and with English habits arid ideas, acquire something of English stolidity and inertia. The idealistic and enthusiastic elements of character which their parents imported from Poland do: not seem to take root in Eng- lish soil. Nominally, they remain 'Jewish in religion ; but religion is no longer one of the vital and potent factors: in their life." " Whether the transition should, on the whole, be called"aiirim;provementj depends largely on the point of view." I think the1 conclusion Mr. Rus- se»ll drawsris that possibly . the solution of the question might find itself in the absorption of the Jews after the first, second, or even- the third generation. You, do not aygree with that ?—I had some correspondence with Mr. Russell on this very point, and I must say he seomed tD.- me.'to^ omit: altogether- ;the question of race, and he trusts altogether* to prophecy to sav what will happen. He can^ point- to nothing that is going on at present as •i far as I can see.. ,MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 47 1062,. He points to the children becoming more and more English ?—That is where we differ. I submit they do not, 1063. You do differ as to the fact ?—I differ absolutely as to the fact. 1064. You do not think the solution of this question is to be found in absorption ?•—I think, it is the only solution, but I cannot imagine any absorbtion that does hot include inter-marriage. 1065. Now, another view materially differing from that of Mr. Russell is that the tradition of the Jewish community has been to be (to use your own expression) more or less of an island in a foreign country, and to combine the two features of being good citizens on the one hand, with maintaining their national ideas on the other. I daresay you have read an article in the April number of the " Quarterly Review ? "—Yes. 1066. What do you say to that ?—I say that is a per- fectly .satisfactory condition of things as long as- the community is comparatively small, and does not materially affect national life, But an element which may be innocuous when it is small, becomes dangerous when it is large. That is what I would fsay about the " Quarterly Review " article. 1067. {Major U vans-Gordon.) May I interpose a ques- tion for a moment with regard to that ? With reference to the views expressed by Mr. Russell with regard to the absorption, I think if my memory serves me right, that Mr. H. S. Lewis, in the second portion of the book, in the first page or two of his views, very much discounts and very much disagrees with what Mr. Russell says. On page 155 he says " I am in agreement with much that he has written, and do not wish to cover the same ground again. I think, however, that there are some misconceptions in his essay whic'h^ vitiate the' general conclusion to which his argument is directed. I shall endeavour to establish that the Jewish race, as a. separate entity"^ has a future; that itk mission as such is far from completed and that it can lbok forward to some- thing better than the painless euthanasia to which Mr. Russeill^appa^ently coiidemns it." So these two authori- ties differ ?—Yes. 1068. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) I think the most charac- teristic passage I have come across in Mr. Lewis's essay is to be found on pages 233 and 234, which sum up his pbint of view extremely well: " It should be added that the growth of Jewish national feeling is not out of har- mony with the claims of English citizenship. It may be a buriousi question foi casuists whether a conflict between the two obligations might arise in any conceivable cir- cumstances. For practical men it is enough that our adopted country to which we owe so great a debt of gratitude, does not require us to be worse Jews in order that we may be better Englishmen. We will not coii- ceaLthe fact that our ultimate aspirations are fixed on : the home of ou-r fathers, and that we believe that the ■ genius of the Jewish race will be best developed on Jewish soil. Rut for many generations to come migra- tion to Palestine must be a slow process, and perhaps the Holy Land can never be more than the centre of Jewish life. .Meanwhile our home is here, and we have to show ourselves worthy of the hospitality which we enjoy. The distinct but not divergent claims of citizen- ship and Jewish nationality may be exceptional, but so is the whole history of Israel." I suppose that may be taken as a tolerably typical passage of that point of view?—^<1 think it is typical of the highly cultivated member of the community, but I do not think it is representative of the people we are speaking of. 1069. Now to go back from these somewhat abstract phases to the principal question of, how to deal with the evils which are fairly generally admitted to exist; first pf allj I will deal with the question of over-crowding. 'There is a very useful map contained in Mr. Russell's book, .pointing out the localities of the over-crowding. 1 do not know whether you can say it is accurate or not. It is a map which shows by different colours the relative amount of populations, the dark blue representing 95 per cent, of the Jewish population. The red is non-Jewish. ; (Lord BotMcliitd.) I suppose that is fairly accurate. You do not dispute that ?—No, not at all. .*• 1070, {Sir. Kenelm ■Digby.) We had some rather im- portant; figures given us the other day. by Mr. Macleod ; with regard to Whitechapel. . "Wei fintji, a. thing which namely, tha^the^number ; rof houses in Whitecliapel diminished from 7,277 in 1891 to 5,735 in 1901, that is to say, it diminished over 1,500 since 1891. That has been a process which has been going on elsewhere in London ?—The process of build- A. White. ing Board Schools and so on has done it. r AT 1902 1071. And the population has risen 4,000 during those ° x years ?—Yes. 1072. The number of houses, having decreased by something not very far short of a third ?:—Yes. 1073. That, of course, is a cause of overcrowding ?— So far as overcrowding is concerned. 1074. Curiously enough one finds in Whitechapel, if you turn to the introduction of the Census at page xi, that although in that Census the houses have diminished, yet the number of single tenement houses have also' very largely diminished in Whitechapel. It is said in the preface to the volume of the Census: " It is satisfactory to know that these high percentages showed in each case a decline from those that prevailed/ in 1891. In the borough of Stepney, consisting of Whitechapel, St. George's-in-the-East, Stepney, and Mile End Old Town registration districts, which re- ceived between 1891 and 1901 a large number of foreign immigrants, the proportion of one-room tene- ments did not exceed 21*7 per cent. , showing a marked decline from the proportion in 1891." Therefore that is one element in dealing with the question of over- crowdings—Undoubtedly. 1075. We find the actual accommodation has decreased by this large amount, and we also find that the number of single room tenements, has largely decreased ?—Undoubtedly. 1076. I think we have been told that there .has been no large addition in that district to the number of tenement dwellings, that is to say, to> the number of houses containing a great number of families?—I can- not speak from first hand knowledge as to that. I should like to be permitted to point out- on that ques- tion of tenement dwellings that if Stepney is like other districts in London there are many tenement dwellings that evade the registration. 1077. I know there are. I am coming to that in a moment. That is all by reason of the rent limits?— Yes. So that rather vitiates your statistics about the comparatively small number of tenement dwellings. 1078. No. I was asking whether there were in Stepney (and I am only asking for information, because I really do not know) any large number of tenement dwellings which would, according to the definition in the Census, be counted as separate houses?—I am not- able to answer that, because I do not know. 1079. With regard to the cases of overcrowding you. referred to. this very important and interesting book. of the London County Council on the Housing Question. There it is summed up on page 90 : " The causes which at the time of the Royal Commission of 1884-5 were- found to have resulted in overcrowding have by no means ceased to operate. Demolitions for various pur- poses have continued in all parts of London ; the neces- sity for the poorer classes to live near their work is just as great as ever, for means of locomotion have not in- creased in proportion to the numbers requiring to use them; the influx of foreigners into certain parts still continues, and as will have abundantly appeared from. what has been already said, sanitary authorities do not yet fully avail themselves of the powers vested in them by the law over 40 years ago." That is a summary of the causes of overcrowding. I do not suppose you would have very much to dissent from in that?—I am afraid you would take me over considerable ground if I were to< challenge that, but I do not entirely concur. 1080. You attach more importance to the influx of foreigners into certain parts ?—Not only the influx, but I do not think among the causes they name is included the- acquisition by foreigners of the-fag ends of leases, which I venture to consider important. 1081. Except so far as it is included in the last sentence " The sanitary authorities do. not yet fully avail themselves of the powers vested in them by the law over 40 years ago'' ?—They are not able to. * 1082. Now, let me just call attention to an answer ,of.yours,at page. 35 of the notes, Question 346 : u I do not quite follow: that. (A.) A man who has been ac- customed to §leep twelve in a room all his life is in a much better position to take, work for which he is paid 8d., working fourteen hours a day, thin a man who is accustomed to 400 cubic feet of space, -wliich is the law48 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: , of England." Is that quite accurate to say that 400 A. White, feet of space is the law'of England?—I am not a legal • •—— authority. 5 May 1902. 1083. But you make a statement. (Chairman.) Perhaps Sir Kenelm will tell us what is the fact, and no doubt the witness will accept it ?— Certainly. 1084. (Sir Kmelm Digby.) The fact is this, that "by the Act of 1891 there is power to make regulations ?— The 29 councils have made regulations providing 400 feet. 1085. If you have read this chapter on overcrowding you will find that is not so. I think the fact is this, is it not, that under the Act of 1891 there is power given to the Borough Councils to make regulations. They were vestries in those days of course. Regulations have been made no doubt, and you will find the result of those regulations in this book. In a few districts the rent of tenements which excluded the houses from being subject to bye-laws was so low as to exclude nearly all houses from their operation. The bye-laws began with a rent limit, above which no house is registered, there- fore excluding it altogether from the operation of the Act P—That is so. 1086. In a few districts the rent of tenements which excluded the houses from being subject to the bye-laws was so low as to exclude nearly all houses from their operation. As an example of this may be quoted the case of the parish of St. Luke, where the bye-laws fixed a rent of 3s. per week for an unfurnished, and 5s. 6d. for a furnished tenement, as the amounts above which the houses in which such rooms were let out should not be registered and regulated. These bye-laws were confirmed by the Local Government Board in 1895, and, on an attempt being made to enforce them, it was found that out of 48 houses as to which notices were served, by reason of the lowness of the rent limit, only 16 came within the scope of the bye-laws, although other houses in the same and other .streets were substantially the same as regarded their occupation as those which had been registered. Out of a total of 177 tenements which in 1897 appeared to be of the class for which these bye- laws are intended, it was found that no less than 145 were let at more than 3s. per week, and would therefore escape registration." Therefore a very large number of houses in that way escape registration altogether. Then as to the 400 feet, that, I do not think, has any- where been imposed as a limit except in the case of rooms which were used both for living and sleeping. Is that so ?—I would be very sorry to contradict you. 1087. You have stated this with regard to the 400 feet; that depends upon what the bye-laws contain?— It is so in the borough in which I am concerned. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It might possibly be in the Building Act, as regards new houses. I do not know. 1088. (Chairman.) There can be no doubt about this question, and perhaps you will kindly enquire?—I think we are speaking of two entirely different things. There is a certain clause which every Borough Council in London has adopted. Whether it is that particular sub-section of that particular Act I cannot say, but if you will permit me to refer I will bring it up afterwards. 1089. (Sir Kenelm Digby-) My impression is that it entirely depends on the bye-laws, and the bye-laws do not provide for 400 feet except in some cases, namely, in the case of rooms which are usedi for living and sleeping. The limit is much lower, and there are a number of houses which escape the bye4aws altogether by reason of the rent limit, and for another reason, also stated in this book, which is that the bye-laws often contain a regula- tion that they are not to apply unless the vestry deems it necessary to apply them, and some vestries, notably the Bethnal Green Vestry, has not deemed it necessary to apply them. Now you referred to a question about synagogues in prisons as showing the growth of criminal population ?—No, not as showing—I said " as suggest- ing," which is a very different thing. 1090. Perhaps you will take it from me that you are misinformed there. I hope we .shall be able to give you information as to the facts of the case, but the syna- gogues to which you referred ,and which were subject to a question in the House of Commons were nothing to do with that ?—Do I understand you to say there are no synagogue© in the prisons ? 1091. Certainly there are synagogues?—-That is the only thing I have committed myself to. 1092. It is true there are synagogues ?—Then what is it you contradict that I have said 1 1093. I do not wish to put it in the form of a ques- tion, but it is not the case that the building of the synagogues was caused by the growth of the Jewish population. Provision has been made for them for a very long time. I do not say the Russian and Polish population has not grown, but that you will have evi- dence about?—I do not understand you to deny my statement that these three synagogues have been built, and that is the only statement to which I have com- mitted myself. 1094. Certainly the synagogues have been built at Wormwood Scrubbs and Pentonville?—And Parkhurst. 1095. I am not sure about that. I do not think that is so, but that was merely as a substitute for the insuffi- cient acoom'modation which we had before ?:—The insufficient accommodation which you had before. 1096. (Chairman.) Mr. Arnold White only put for- ward the fact that there had been these synagogues built?—That is al-1. 1097. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The Prison Commissioners are enquiring into this question ana will give you that information ?—'Then please acquit me of making a state- ment which you have contradicted. 1098. I did not contradict it ?—Then that is all right. 1099. I did not contradict the fact that the syna- gogues had been built, but I only stated that you were misinformed as to the reasons for which they were built ?—I did not say what they were built for. 1100. You .said it was for the growth of the criminal population ?—No, I did not say that. I challenge you tx> show me that in my evidence. 1101. Let me make this perfectly clear. Take ques- tion 382 : " Now the first evidence that we are importing a criminal Jewish population is shown by the fact that the Government, without mentioning the matter in the House of Commons, are building synagogues at Worm- wood Scrubs, Parkhurst and Pentonville."?—Is that untrue ? 1102. It is certainly not untrue; they were building synagogues at Wormwood Scrubs and Pentonville (1 am not sure about Parkhurst), but what is the fact is that they wished to make provision in the form of syna- gogues for the very inadequate provision which we had before in different rooms in the prison ?—May I respect- fully ask you to be so good as to point out the words in this question which you are quoting and which you are now contradicting. 1103. (Mr. Lyttelton.) At question 387 I said to the Witness : "You say it may show that criminal Jews are coming in ? " He replied, " I do it with the object of try- ing to get you to call before you the magistrates and the prison authorities. I make no assertion, because I do not know, and if I said so, I went too far."—That is all I meant. 1104. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We shall have the prison authorities before us?—Excuse me, but you have put into my mouth what I never said. Your question is printed and my answer is not, and that I object to. 1105. I do not wish to labour this. There was rather an imputation against the Government for doing this— I will not say on the sly—but for doing this without explaining what they were doing, because of the growth , of the criminal population. (Examined by Lord Rothschild.) 1106. I think I can put the question of the prisons right if you will allow me. The first synagogue built in an English prison was buiK in the year 1872-73 in the Portsmouth Convict Prison through my father's influence. Portsmouth Convict Prison is now closed and the synagogue has been removed to Parkhurst, which has no reference to alien immigration. At the same time that there was a synagogue in the Portsmouth convict prison, the Jewish prisoners, before they were tried for criminal offences, were kept at Cold Bath, where there was a synagogue . Cold Bath is now no longer used, and the Jewish prisoners .are taken to Wormwood Scrubs and Pentonville, and the synagogue has been transferred from Cold Bath to Wormwood Scrubs and Pentonville and it has nothing to do with the alien immigration. I think it is right to mention this, because it has gone forth to the world, I will not say in the nature of insinuations, but it has gone forth byMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 49 means of the remarks Mr. White made, that His Majesty's Government has been obliged to build new synagogues on account of the large number of criminals who came with the aliens ?—I never said so, and may I ask your Lordship to point out where I used those words, or else withdraw your statement. 1107. (Chairman.) These .are the only words you used at question 382 : "Now the first evidence that we are importing a criminal Jewish population is shown by the fact that the Government, without mentioning the matter in the House of Commons, are building syna- gogues at Wormwood Scrubs, Parkhurst, and Penton- ville. I cannot learn that any prison chapels are being made for Unitarians or for Baptists, who are three times as numerous as the Jews, or for Independents." Then at question 387, you qualify that by your answer to Mr. Lyttelton: "I do it with the object of trying to get you to call before you the magistrates and the prison authorities. I make no assertion, because I do not know, and if I said so, I went too far." That is the way the matter stands, and I am sure it is not worth much discussion?—But I claim the right as a witness to' make this statement. Lord Rothschild, with his enormous influence, has charged me with publishing the fact that these synagogues were built for the alien im- migratiorii population. I invite Lord Rothschild to be good enough to point to the words on which he relies for this assertion. Lord James has been good enough to read the words I used and I submit they do not warrant Lord Rothschild in making that statement. 1108. (Lord 'Rothschild.) I can only explain the im- pression which your words produced. A gentleman told me the next day: " A lie goes forth to the world and you ought to contradict it." I mid, " probably Mr. Arnold White is misinformed about the prisons," and I should have told you about it the first day, but you would not let me?—I do not know what you mean by saying that I would not let- you. (The proceedings were ad- journed for a short time.) (Lord Rothschild.) I shall not want to ask the witness any questions. Lord James of Hereford will ask them. (Witness.) May I say before answering your Lordship that I have reason to believe that the case that I cited this morning about Sir Julian Goldsmid's will is not to be taken in any sense as a prevalent custom, but was due entirely to private reasons. I should like, therefore, to cut that portion of my evidence out. 1109. {Chairman.) It was mentioned in the Press generally; but I was aware of the circumstance*, although I did not intervene when you were giving the evidence. What you say now is quite right. Now, I want to utilise your evidence as much as we can. In the first place, will you give me your definition of an " alien immigrant." You have used the words " alien immigrant" ; to whom do you refer ?—I referred to a non-naturalised person with a domicile in a foreign country settling in this country. 1110. And when you are suggesting remedies to be taken with respect to alien immigration you are re- ferring to all immigrants who come in?—To all immi- grants who come in, provided they affect English life in any way. 1111. You have been asking for some rule or regula- tion to be laid down. Having given me your definition, would not that refer to any citizen of Paris or anybody coming to this country. I want you to define to whom you wish to apply the remedies you have spoken of ?— Intending settlers. 1112. All settlers?—Yes. 1113. Would you apply it to any person who was coming over here intending to buy a country house ?—I would have no law that does not apply to the rich and the poor alike. 1114. Supposing there are regulations of a port affect- ing the Customs House officers, and a person arrives, how are they to know whether he comes within the class to which you apply your rule or not?—I should adopt the means which the Customs adopted after the com- mission of assuming that all the persons who come by Dover and Calais are people of means, and that the cir- cumstances of the people who come by the other routes require to be looked into. I.am not cross-examining in a hostile sense; but I want to see how we could work the scheme out. 6144 Then you would exempt the routes of Dover and Calais, Mr. and Folkestone and Boulogne ?—Unless I subsequently A. White. found that did not answer. - 1116. Jf you exempt those ports, what is to prevent 5 May 1962. some organisation bringing these men first of all to them and then right round ?—Because the traffic would not pay. 1117. They might have a fund at their disposal in order to defeat the rules and regulations directly you get these ports exempt?—I hope I should not be out of order in saying that if I wanted to keep them out I would keep them out. 1118. I want to know what we have to consider when we come to consider our report. What do you suggest is to be done, first with respect to marshalling the ports. Would you make some ports subject to rules and some not ?—Yes. 1119. Which would you make subject to rules and which not ?—I should ignore the northern ports, because that is mainly through traffic, and I should place the Port of London and Queenborough, which I believe is part of the Port of London, under very close super- vision. 1120. Would you confine your supervision or regula- tion to London and anything pertaining to the Port of London ?—To begin with. 1121. That would be the first step ?—To begin with. 1122. Then you would have no regulations at all in respect of eastern ports, southern ports, or any ports, in fact, except these you mention ?—That would be so to begin with. 1123. Would you not expect evasion ?—No. 1124. Why not?—For this reason, that the people who come and who are objectionable are for the most part people of either very little or no means. You had it in evidence that the average sum in possession of immigrants coming into the Port of London, according to Mr. Hawkey, was 26 marks, the average for the year. That being so, and as these people require employment, the respectable ones, as soon after they arrive as possible, it would not pay to bring them by any other route than by Hamburg or Rotterdam, or Libau. 1125. If they were obliged to provide their own money, they could not meet the expense, but supposing there were persons who wished to assist the immigrants from Russia whom they regarded as being oppressed, why should not they find the funds for immigrants coming into this country?—I should subscribe to them myself if they were oppressed. 1126. Why should not they take them to Hull?—In my Bill they are excepted. 1127. You have said you would not include them ?—I would not include Hull, but I would not do anything that would keep out people who are bond fide perse- cuted. 1128. These are the alien immigrants we have to deal with ?—No. 1129. I will come to that, because we shall have to- deal with that in the statute that you are suggesting. At any rate, I would suggest to you that the immi- grants may have funds found for them to bring them into ports which you have excepted from the operation of your rules ?—That may be so. 1130. With regard to London, would you subject any- body arriving by vessel to be inspected by a medical man or to be investigated, or do you restrict such treat- ment to steerage passengers ?—I think universal medical examination is the ideal; but it is impracticable in real life. I should keep it to the steerage. 1131. But what is the statute to say?—You have drawn one Bill with regard to it have you not?—I have sent my Bill home. I did not think it would be required. 1132. What do you say is to be done; is there to be a positive inspection of every foreigner arriving in the Port of London?—I should be content to take the re- gulations in force in Castle Garden, New York. 1133. What you want to adopt in that respect is the American rules ?—I want to level up my regulation to the American standard. 1134. I want to marshal for you or you to marshal for us, your objection to alien immigration, as you G50 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. A. White. 5 May 1902. now define it. Your first and principal objection is the non-assimilation of these alien immigrants?—That is so. 1136. That is your first objection P—Yes.. 1136. As to that non-assimilation, it merely means that they will not marry with the English people?—• That is the main point. 1137. Is that racial, or is that a matter of religion? —Both. 1138. First, as a matter of religion, no Jew will marry a Christian. You cannot give me an instance of a Jew man.ever marrying.a Christian: I do not speak of the Jewish female. Can you give me an instance that has ever been known of a male Jew marrying a Christian female ?—-That is precisely my point. 1139. No, it is not, because you are speaking of the racial question ?—The racial or religious. 1140. If no English Jew will marry an English woman, what has race to do with it?—What about Lord Beaconsfield ? 1141'." What do you mean?—You say no English Jew will marry an English woman. 1142. I do not say so. Lord Beaconsfield was a Christian ?—By religion, but not by race. 1143. I am speaking of religion ?—When I use the word Jew, it connotes two ideas, one religion, and the other race, and your Lordship is using it entirely in the sense of religion. 1144. So I am,, but you are speaking of the objection to the alien coming in here and that he wont marry. I put it to you he does not refuse to marry, because he is an alien, but because he is a Jew P—-It is the cloudiness of' that word " Jew " that connotes the two separate ideais. 1145. You can assume we do know what a Jew is. Does not your objection prevail as against Jews apart from their being alien immigrants, because they will not marry Christians. This is not an objection to the Polish or Russian Jew objecting to marry an English woman, which means the mingling of races, but it is an ^objection of the Jew of whatever nation he is to marry a- Christian?—I will leave outside the question of race for the moment, in order to reply to your Lordship's 'question, though my objection about the race is abso- lutely strong. My answer would be, so long as the . community in England is comparatively small, I think the! presence of Jews is a very great advantage to the • country, and a distinct strength; but in consequence ^ of their aloofness, if they become very strong, and very powerful, I should expect to find the consequences in England which I observe in other countries, that is to , say, they would become masters dominating. 1146. That does not answer my question at all. I am on the point whether your objection is not an objection to alien immigrants but an objection to the existence of the Jew as a Jew?—No, I have not the least objection to the Jew as a Jew. 1147. You admit, I think, that no Jew will marry a Christian ?—Y es. 114& Then, if that is so, wheare is the objection to the : alien.fimmigrant? If he is not an alien immigrant, bi}Lt ,:an English Jew, he will not marry a Christian. You are objecting to the alien because he will not marry . ,u yourself "admit that cheap production is beneficial to those who *re the purchasers ?—Yes, for the moment. 1210. If you say you do not want to have cheap pro- duction, that must be a different position?—I want to have cheap production provided there are not counter- balancing; evils. 1220. Your point is this, that these alien immigrants coming here are in a better condition than they are 'n their own country?—Distinctly. 1221. And ought not to come, becauise they do produce goods at a cheaper rate than they otherwise would be produced ?—That is not the reason. The reason why they ought not to come is because they impart mto this power of turning out cheap goods the power of lowering the standard of English workmen. 1222. That is by their competition ?—No, it is by their manner of life—by heredity. 1223. Explain that a little- mo-re. EOow do.you mean that except by competition as regards wages they lower the .standard of the Englishman's life?—-Take the diet, for instance. The Jewish tailor will take a4 cup of tea in the morning, a piece of bread, and a pickled her- ring a jerkin, and some other delicacy of a very moderate and inexpensive kind, while the Englishman is unable on that food to perform more than a propor- tion of the work which a Russian Jew can perform. Surely that is competition; it is not because the Russian person eats these delicacies that the English workman is driven to eat them, but it is because the English workman is obliged to spend more money in diet, the production of which involves more work. 1224. Is it not that which prevents successful com- petition with these workers ?—It depends what the meaning of these words " successful competition " is. 1225. You were giving as the result of this work- man not obtaining employment that he cannot obtain the food he wants to obtain?'—-Except that where two workmen are engaged on the same job, the Russian Jew and the English workman, the English requires more expensive diet than the other, and more expensive lodging than the other. 1226. What evil do you draw from that ?—The English workman either has to work more hours to produce "die same net result, or the Englishman gets less pay for the same number of hours work 1227. Is not that competition ? Is not that the result of competition by the alien immigrant?—Then why lot the Chinaman? 1228. We do not keep out the Chinaman?—I think you would have no Commission if it was a question of the Chinaman coming in. My proposition I will put in this form—my objection to the Chinaman or to the Russian Jew is that when you get competition of a cer- tain class with democracy as it is to-day, with not only a high, but a rising, standard of comfort, there comes a time when you act as the Australian Colonies acted in an early period. 1229. Doeis not the English workman get that com- petition of foreign workmen abroad who live upon much less food and different food, and cheaper food, with the result that our industries are undersold in the markets—do not we meet with that competition else- where?—-There is this difference, that the spectacle and constant presence of the foreign workman is not visible or in contact with the English workman. There is a difference, but economically I admit it is practically the same thing. 1230. We are bound to submit to the terms—what is the difference between coming in contact and subject to the observation—what is the difference so far as the result is concerned ?—The difference is this, that owing to their capacity for overcrowding the English workman is drawn out into the country, and to a greater distance, when he loses his work, or he has to go abroad. 1231. You are now coming to another phase—this overcrowding ?—No, I was answering your question as to what was the evil. 1232. I was rather on the question of -alien competi- tion. As regards the result to the workmen the evil is the same whether the competition occurs with the foreign nation as a whole or with the individual here?—-I ao not pretend to be an authority on economical subjects, but as far as I can puzzle it out, the thing is the same, -subject to the difference of the non-contact. There is the example also. 1233. That they wouM be led away to take less wages ? —No. Let me take my point, if I may. I admit the competition of the foreign goods. We will assume these goods are made, not in Germany or in Russia, but they are made here in London. Some of these workmen who come over—I do not say all—have a very low standard of truth. It is not a thing that lends itself to statistics, but the general tone of the neigh- bourhood is lowered, and this prevalence of lying and perjury is exceedingly common. I say that the effect on the children of the English workman is a distinctly bad effect, and must be taken into account along with this cheapness which is so highly regarded. 1234. I thought I had shut this out by asking you these questions about the virtues of these immigrants? —You have only asked one half. You must not snip off the virtues and not take the other things. 1235. You think it is not so much a matter of com- petition as "evil communications corrupting good manners " ?—The English Mve evil qualities, too, that the foreigner does not possess. 1236. You do not put it that he corrupt the foreigner ? __-Yes, he does sometimes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 53 1237. That is give and take?—Yes, but I draw tihe ^balance, and if it is even I give my own side in. 1238. I caught something which you said, and I was very glad' to hear you say it, that if you thought these ipeople were oppressed by foreign countries you would . not only let them in, but you would help to let them in?—Indeed I would. 1239. There ha-s been a good deal of oppression in .Russia, has there not ?—A great deal. 1240. Would you let them in ?—Those who were actually oppressed—not those who pretended to be oppressed and came here because they wanted charity. 1241. Supposing we got some Act on the Statute Book, how could we discriminate between those who have been oppressed and those who have not?—I think our donsuls could. 1242. In the first place T see the distinction you have drawn between ports and individuals. You would first have to determine a class of persons, who would have to apply to a British Consul?—Yes. 1243. It would be a Russian going to a British Consul —a Russian Jew or a Polish Jew, and saying to him, ■" I have been oppressed," and the British Consul would have to give a certificate that he had been oppressed ?— Yes. 1244. That would be very difficult ?—I am very sorry, *but we are not responsible for the Russian laws. I am much more sorry for my own people here than I am for them if it is a question of oppression. 1245. It is not a question of sorrow; it is a question oi practicability—the possibility of getting such a cer- tificate. Do you think it is possible for a Russian peasant to go to a British Consul and .to say that he has been oppressed and is the victim of such oppression that would justify a certificate ? It is not a question of -sorrow, but a question of practical business. I put it to you how difficult it would be to get this certificate ? —It is a question of sorrow in this way—one may be ^profoundly sorrowful for the trouble of other countries, but one ought to be more sorrowfulfor the troubles of one's own country; and if one believes this immigration is productive of evil, one should do nothing to facili- tate it. 1246. That is not the point at all. I am asking how the British Consul would be able to act judicially and say you have been oppressed enough to get this certifi- cate"?—I am unable to answer that. I do not know liow he would. 1247. I am taking your idea of the certificate, which I thought was well worthy of attention. You would yant him to be able to certify the fitness for entering into this country, such as the man being sober, and, as you say- not of the criminal class. How would the Consul be able to get any evidence of that ?—Because «very artisan in Russia belongs to an artel, and these artels are governed by regulations which are known by the police, and the members of each artel are on the police books. Therefore the Consul, if he. had access "to these documents, would have no difficulty in ascer- taining that he was oppressed. 1248. I am dealing now with practical questions. The Consuls exist principally at porta, and large towns ? —Yes. 1249. These peasants come from a large tract of ■country. Bo you think a Consul would be able to obtain "evidence over a large tract of country with regard to a peasant previously unknown to him ?—I do not think the peasant would come to the Consul. 1250. Then what would happen?—It would stop im- migration. 1251. How would that help the oppressed?—That is -quite another thing. 1252. No. You have told ime you wouild help the oppressed?—Yes, so I would. 1253. If youi stop them going to the Consul, there would be the same oppression, and how would they come -out?—You say, would I, Arnold White, help the op- pressed? I say yes, I would; but you say if I were the ijGoverriment of Europe would I facilitate my Con- suls scouring the country side, and I say certainly not. 1254. It is not a question of despotic government, it is a question of doing that which will pass through -public opinion, and I ask you to tell us how this prin- ciple of giving a certificate that a person has been oppressed, or a person is fit to come here can possibly work out practically?—Wherever there is a bond fide case, every Englishman would be exceedingly careful not to interfere with the rights of tradition ; and that is a very different thing to making a network of machinery in foreign countries in order to facilitate immigration into this country. 1255. I am on the point of .what you 'have been good enough to suggest as a practical thing of giving a certificate that a man ha,s been oppressed, or that a man is a fit subject for a. certificate ?—A refugee. 1056. A relfugee is a person who comes here. We are speaking of Russia, and he is not a refugee in Russia. The Consul there must act on his opinion and what he knows. I only want you to tell me how a certificate ever could be given as a true certificate?—I think it could be given as a true certificate that a man was an artisian, but not that he was a victim of persecution. I do not think that you could invent any machinery that would apply to this fact. 1257. You have spoken of your willingness to> assist these poor people?—As a private individual. 1258. As a witness?—Not as the Government of Eng- land. 1259. No, but you have said you think it right they should be assisted, and that you would assist them per- sonally?—Certainly I would, but that is a different thing, mv personal action. I would assist them as an individual, but not as the State. 1260. Do you think it right, as an individual if you like, to assist these people to come here?—If they are Englishmen, yes. 1261. If they are allien immigrants?—I mean if the people applying are Englishmen. I do not think it is right for Englishmen who live abroad to assist foreigners to come to England, and I have said so. 1262. But ilf a thing is a ri^ht thing to be done, what is the difference whether it is done by an Englishman or a foreigner abroad?—Because in the one case the foreigners are disposing of English privileges, and in the other case the Englishmen are disposing of their own. 1263. This is a question of charity, and I was struck bv what you said about Baroness Hirsch. Baroness Ilirsch, out of charity, has subscribed to the Jewish people in England. Did I understand you that she had subscribed only to foreigners, or generally to Jews in England ?—This £20,000 of which I am speaking—and I am speaking in Lord Rothschild's presence—was, if I am correct, left for the purpose of assisting poor foreigners who come to England. 1264. Poor foreigners do come to England, and must come to England to some extent. You prefer her say- ing : " I won't give it to the poor foreigners who come to England, but to those who shall go to any other place than England?"—I would prevent her giving it. It is contrary to public policy. 1265. I quite see what you mean, that you object to it, because it is an inducement?—Yes. 1266. You -think if the foreigners are 'here, they must take whatever be their lot, unaided by her charity, at any rate, so that fewer may come ?—Yes. 1267. You would not object to her helping the Eng- lish Jew as much as she liked?—I have nothing to do with that. 1268. Then I understand that you would stop this entry of foreigners into this country at all hazards?— I will not say at all hazards, because that includes mas- sacre, and all sorts of violent means, but I would not give them naturalisation. I have not put that point, but I certainly would stop the naturalising that is going on. 1269. That brings me to what I was going to ask you. Have you any knowledge of the condition of these immi- grants in any generation, except those who first enter ? Have you practically any knowledge of the effect of living in this countrv?—I notice that the whole Jewish population of this country must be immigrants, and, having regard to the small Jewish population that there, was at the beginning of the last century, the great majority of the Jewish people in this country are recent immigrants, or the children of the second and third generations. I have attempted to make an ex- amination into the characteristics of the more or Jes* prosperous middle class Jewish community in such dis- Mr. A. White. 5 May 19Q2.u ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. •: JL. White. 5 May 1902. ^ tricts of London as Maida Vale and Hampstead, and I liave formed an opinion upon the characteristics such, as they are, of these people, many of them of the second and third generation. 1270. Wha/fc is the result ? If you have seen these children of the second and third generation, do you find they have at .all improved since the time of the immigration of their farms in physical and moral posi- tion ?—If their grandparents were what we see to-day, they have greatly improved. • 1271. They are not deficient in intelligence ?—-Never; o ;• J stjiink. ijt is notorious that the intellectuality,;ofr the -Jewish community is phenomenal. , 1 1272. Do you find, as far as you can judge—I do not . know whether you have had opportunities of judging— they make good citizens P—Yes, they make good citizens of a type, but they are too detached in views for my taste. 1273. You come back to the want of assimilation ?—■ Yes. • 1274. But apart from that?—That is a very important point in these days. 1275. But the old British citizen Jew doeis not assimi- late in the same way. Is not your whole objection be- cause he is a poor man?—I do not object. I only say I do not want the poor ones to come here. ^ 1276. You know it is ail absolute fact that tihe old citizen Jew does not assimilate in marriage. What distinction do you find apart from that between the JEnglish Jew as a British citizen and the other Jew as a- British citizen ?—In the first place, there is a very considerable feeling between the recent immigrants and ,the. so-called Anglicised Jews. The recent immigrant .takes a very different view of things. 1277. He is naturalised, and he has a vote?;—Yes. I am now talking of the good one—not the criminal or the semi-criminal or the mendicant, but I should say iithe ^principal note of the recent immigrant is his pro- found belief in the nationality of the Jewish race, and that, therefore, he looks on our national life with the same sort of detachment that a Frenchman or a German looks upon it. 1278. Do you mean the Zionist and such-like societies ? —Yes, they are symptoms of this detachment. You began it with the organisation in Paris, which was a . distinctly nationalistic undertaking, and it seems to me impossible that in any nation, however clever the people are, you can have divided allegiance. 1279. They do become naturalised, and they do exer- cise their citizenship, when you come to the second and third generation?—Yes, they become naturalised, and they exercise their citizenship. I have nothing to say against any Jews who are in tike country now. I do not want to turn any out. 1280. You said you would turn out a man not likely to enrich the human race?—Yes. 1281. I do not suppose many men living live for the purpose of; enriching, the human race. These Jews are intelligent enough to enrich themselves at any rate?— Tften they are enriching the human race according to ybu, my Lord. It depends on how they make their money. 1282. They do as citizens act so as to earn their money, as they do earn it, and when you get a natural- ised Jew here of the second or third generation you admit that you do not proceed with your sweating indict- ment against him ?—-Not as worker ; but I think you would find a considerable portion of the money lend- ing, interest in this country in the hands of the children of t& second and third generation. I suggest you should inquire into that. 1283. I have not much sympathy with the money lending people, as I dare say you know, but how can keep them out. Take Isaac Gordon, the man you, mentioned. He does not come with a batch of people, but he belongs to a class of people who would come to London or Hull or anywhere else. What regulation or what Statute could ever have kept Isaacj Gordon out? ■—My Consul's certificate would have done it. He could ndi have got it. . 3204. (lion. Alfred Lyttelion.) Would he have had to- fsatisfy/ithe 'Consul that he came to enrich the British race?-—It is very easy to ridicule the idea. I entreat you to let me ?make this point. The Commissioners have great influence in the Press* and haye none. The point is that you have an Isaac Gordon in your crowd, and under my suggested system of the Consul's certificate this Isaac Gordon, who was a nomad, a mendicant of a type in the place where he came from, would have- gone to the British Consul, and, being a mendicant, could not have come over here, and you would have kept him out. 1286. (Chairman*) I assure you neither Mr. Lyttelton nor myself have the slightest intention of throwing . ridicule upon .anything you suggest. We are getting, , your views upon the matter, but Isaac Gordon may not have, come in with a troop—he may have come in at 'one pf^your ports where they would not want a certifi- c^te(|—Mte may have come. I will risk that. wc 128&. Would you apply your remedy to his tradings because he had been an alien immigrant, to carry your 3principle..out ?, Look at it from a statesmanlike point & vfew t—If I ga% that the members of one particular race, 'coming from one particular part of the world,, were attaching themselves to a trade, the effect of which was injurious to the English people, I should not hesi- tate * t'#-introduce such regulations as would enable me to modify the evil influence that had been made ap- parent by that investigation. * 1287. Would you give me some suggestion—for I am with you to a great extent—as to what sort of regulation you would propose.- Should we if these money lenders are traced tb'a particular spot within the Pale,, by Statute amend the late Act by saying that no in- dividual coming from within that Pale should carry on the business' of money lender ?—-No, I would not do it in that way. I should go to the leaders of the Jewish community in England after I had got my facts, and I should say, " this is a matter that affects you as Eng- lishmen as much as any part of the community, and I put before you the fact that an undue proportion of the Jewish race are coming from Central Europe and Eastern Europe, and are addicting themselves to the trade of money lending .and usury, and we ask you, What are you going to do for England in this matter, seeing that England has done a great deal for you ?" I should address Lord Rothschild in that way. 1288. Do you think Lord Rothschild could or would reply ?—I think Lord Rothschild, with the great means of communication that he has with the com- munities and with the Rabbis all over Europe, could bring an overwhelming pressure of opinion to bear upon this question. 1289. An expression oif opinion from whom?—From the whole Jewish community, which feels quite as strongly as I do about this question of money lending. 1290. You do not suggest thiat we as Commissioners could make any such Report that would lead to action to remedy the great evils you complain of?—I do not know why you should not represent to the heads of the Jewish community that it is a desirable tHing to stop this evil as far as possible if you think it is an evil. 1291. You regard as an eviil what we 'have not touched upon, the question of overcrowding ?—It is a great evil. 1292. Overcrowding, of course, is a question of degree. Do you think it exists more in Stepney;than anywhere else that you know of where these persons are prin- cipally centralised ?-—I think in Stepney it is a con- spicuous evil. I think in Southwark it is.-, probably as bad, but possibly from a different cause. 1293. I do not know whether you have had an op- portunity of considering other districts. You have referred to Southwark, but are you aware of the extent to which some of our agricultural districts in Dorset- shire and Wiltshire are overcrowded, because in some of those districts it is very bad, is it not?—Yes. 1294. Any remedies that can be found in those dis- tricts other than the Stepney district ought to be appliol to the Stepney district?—Yes. 1295. If they are good remedies |n , one case, they ought to be good remedies in the other ?—Not neces- sarily, because overcrowding might come from too many people or from too few houses. 1296. But if there are too many people there must be too few houses ?—You may liave a stationary popula- tion, with a diminishing number of houses, as you have had evidence of already in, Whitechapel, or you may have a , stationary number of houses' with an increasing population. That is my point. :<•MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 55 1297. That is quite a different point?—You see, my Lord, there is a difference. ,1298. I suppose you will not object to general legis- lation dealing with overcrowding in the houses in the hope that it may effect a remedy ?—No, certainly not, my Lord. 1299. There aire two< or three masters which we want your assistance on. You gave us in the opening part of your statement certain facts that you refer to, and then you stated that you can prove them by evidence and by calling witnesses to those facts. I will give you an example—there are many of them. At Question 331; " What do you mean by the second and third generation? (A.) The children of the immigrants in the* second generation object, as I shall be prepared to prove." Then you proceed : " It is a fact that I will undertake to, sustain in evidence that the Russian im- migrants, with which the Royal Commission is con- cerned, holding fast to the faith of their fathers, regard intermarriage with the English as contamination." Then you proceed in many other places say that you "have witnesses to prove these facts. Can you give us the names of these witnesses who will assist in estab- lishing your proposition, because we are very anxious to have every witness you would desire to have called ? —I expect to prove the whole of this—I do not under- stand it is denied—out of Jewish witnesses who will «come. 1300. Do I under stand you that after the number of years you have studied this question and formed opinions on it, which you have ably and forcibly put before us, you have no witnesses who will assist the Commission?—If the witnesses before your Lordship from the immigration side deny this, I will produco rebutting evidence, but I have never heard it was denied. Look at Mr. Lewis. You have had the book before you. There is a witness. 1301. You s>ay, " I am prepared to prove the second generation object" ?—I have put in Mr. Lewis's book. Mr. A. White. 1302. We have rather agreed upon the course to pursue, that the better plan would be for us to hear the case of those who wish to establish reforms- and we want to obtain as witnesses those who will 5 May 1902„ affirmatively come and show us the evils which we are —— very desirous to consider and meet if we can. Have you no names of witnesses to give us as persons who know about these things ?—-I would reserve thole witnesses until the other side has been heard. 1303. But we want -the plaintiff's caise first?—I aim not the plaintiff, I am only an individual witness. 1304. I said the pilaintiff's caise—we are taking that case first ?—'Am I responsible for putting the plaintiff's case. 1305. Yes ?—I never accepted the position. 1306. You have come here and given evidence, and made these assertions, and over and over again m put- ting your case you say: " I am prepared to prove this." What do you mean by saying you are prepared to prove this P—If you will allow me, before the Commission has ceased, I will say I will undertake to prove that that is so. _ 1307. Can you oblige us, as a matter of courtesy, by giving us the names of any witnesses whom you suggest we should call ?—I have put in a list of names. 1306. Can you do it through Major Gordon ?—I think these names I might be asked for in private. I have put in a list of names. 1309. I was not aware of it?—<1 was spending Satur- day afternoon doing nothing else to the best of my ability. You rather put me in the position of a person who is making assertions that he is not prepared to prove. 1310. I did not know you had given in a list ?—I have. (Chairman.) That is all I have to ask. I am very much obliged to you for having given in a list of names of witnesses, and the Commissioners are very much obliged to you for the evidence you have given. Thank you very much. FIFTH DAY. Thursday, 8 th May, 1902. present : The Hight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chaii man). Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby. k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. Thomas Hawkey, recalled; and further Examined. 1311. (Sir J^ewlrn, Digby.) There is only one thing more I should like to know. You spoke of the average of money that the immigrants had, some a good deal and flome nothing ?—Yes. 1312. Can you give any idea about that ?—I have made a note here of the principal sums I have seen. In 1901 and 1902 I saw 1,000 roubles with one person, 1,000 roubles with -another, 650 with a third; two ■500's, two 400*is, and two 300's with individuals. The rouble is about 2s., or a little more than 2s., so 1,000 roubles is £100, 600 roubles is £60, and so on. 1313. Are there a large (proportion who have practi- cally nothing ?—The proportion who had nothing for 1901-2 was 24*8 per cent. 1314. (CKarirmam,.) Ofri the too years In the oil© year. It does not always go that way. In 1899 it was 21 per. cent.; and in 1898 also it waa 21 per cent. The average for eight years of those people declaring they have nothing is 22 per . cent. 1315. Is that really nothing, or that they could not pay their own expense of going to where they live from the shelter ?—They have perhaps 50 pfennigs—sixpence, or something; I do not make any note of that. 1316. Substantially without means at ail ?—Yes. 1317. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You said the other day that they could practically pay their boats to the shore Y —Yes, I have seen larger sums than those I have men- tioned. I have seen a cheque for £1,000 on one of these persons on a Russian bank, and another time I have seen £500, and I have seen 4,000 marks in paper money and other sums with individuals. I have seen „ 2,000 marks several times. 1318. Those who have nothing in that sense you speak of—not absolutely nothing, but nothing to speak o£— are about 'one quarter ?—Yes, roughly, one quarter. Then I have made another distinction. I have got here an account of those that produce less than 10s. For the eight years 15 {per cent., had less than 10s. For one year it was 15 per cent., for another 12 per .cent. , a . third year 13 per cent., and a fourth 17, and so on. So the whole «right years gives a mean average of 15 per cent, that have under 10s. Mr. rI. Hawkey. 8 M ay 1902.56 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. 1^19. Would that include men, women, and children, T. Haivkey. or does (it only include [the head individual of the _ family ?—It includes men, women, and children, the head g May 1902. individual of the family. 1320. It is not per head?—I make the calculation always per adult. These percentages are reckoned on that basis. 1321. Tlwo children counting as one adult?—Yes. 1322. (Chairman.) If a man and his wife and two children came, would you count three or two P—Three. 1323. They may have 30s. in your estimate ?—They may have 10s. If a sum is produced to me—no matter how many in the family—I just make a note of that sum. 1324. What seeimed to me contradictory was that you counted the two children as an adult ?—Yes. 1325. What do you mean »by that in respect of this 10s. ? You have a man and his wife and two children arriving?—'Yes. 1326. You say to the man, "Let me see what money - you have got" ?—Yes. 1327. He, personally, produces 10s. ?—Yes. 1328. When you give us this estimate, is it 10s. per head or is it 10s. per adult head of the family?— Yes. 1329. Then the observation that you count two chil- dren as one adult comes to nothing for this purpose ?— No. 1330. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you any difficulty in getting these people to show you their money?—.Not a great deal. Sometimes they are rather islow in produc- ing it. I adopt a plan when I [go amongst them of placing aside the first few who say they have nothing, and I keep them there until I have finished the ex- amination, and sometimes (it occurs after they have seen the others producing money they themselves pro- duce some and ishow me. 1331. Alfter having said they have none ?—Yes. 1332. .Have you any reason to suppose that they do not show you the whole of their money to any great extent ?—I believe they do not. I have some instances here where they have not, positive instances. 1333. Oouild you joist give us one or two of these ?— There was a case by the " Portia" from Hamburg. There were 12 persons who represented to me tha)t they had little or no means, but on their arrival at the Jewish shelter they booked to America. The Superinten- dent of the Jewish shelter, I believe, booked them there, but all I saw was just a few shillings—not sufficient at all for that purpose. No one showed me enough for that. I suspected, too, that they were going further, and I challenged them, asking if this was not the case, and told them that they had nothing to fear in de- claring the truth—that it was to their own advantage. I do that generally. I make a statement to them that I am from the Government, and that it is being said that they are arriving here without means, and that they are stay- ing here in London in large numbers, and I represent to them that if they have means, or are going further, it is to their advantage to state the truth. I put them on that footing, and with these men I did try particularly hard to get from them this information, because they had the appearance of respectable people; they were very re- spectable in appearance, but they would make no ad mis- sion. 1334. Have you any reason to suppose that that kind of thing prevails to any considerable extent?—I do not believe it does to any considerable extent. I believe generally one gets a fair account of the immigrants' condition as to means, but as to destination I am sure I do not get the account—I am sure I am largely de- ceived as to the destination. 1)330. Wlhdicih Way ?—ODf tthey are going (further—to America. 1336. Do they say they are going on ?—They say they are not going on. 1337. When they are readily going on ?—Yes, in large numbers they do that. 1338. Are you in unif orm ?—No. 1339. What, as far as yon can tell, is the object of tHose who do conceal their destination?—I believe it has to do with the agents. The agents abroad, to whom they pay their fares to America, enjoin upon them that they are not to tell that they are going on to America. That especially applies to Germany, and they keep up the deception when they arrive in thi® oountry; but I have met some at the Jewish shelter; I invariably go to the Jewish shelter. When I have left, the ship I follow the people up, because or my inability to get the truth from them. I therefore take what ad- vantage I am able to from the investigation that is held at the shelter, and I find there sometimes that 'those who told me they were coming to stay in London are really going further, and have paid their fares- abroad. I believe it is to do with the agents. 1340. If they pay their fares abroad do they get tickets or passes on to some agent in London ?—■ Not if they pay to those Russian Jewish agents. These have colleagues in London, and they advise their collea- gues in London of these passengers having paid to them their fares. The passenger has no receipt and no acknowledgment of any kind but just the. address of the agent in London to whom he is to apply for his> through ticket, and then, having been told that he is. not to say he is going to America, he simply does not. 1341. I aim. tnot cilear now quite in regard to the average. Is the average amount an average covering the whole of the immigrants ?—Yes. 1342. Upon the computation of two children as one adult ?—Yes. 1343. And including those who have nothing?—Yes. That is to say, the whole of the steerage immigrants.. I divide the passengers into three classes—into steerage- immigrants, transmigrants, and other aliens. This, average applies to the steerage immigrants, I do not. question the others as to means. 1344. (Chairman.) Is that the average of money?— Yes. 1345. That is nothing to do- with the children— that is the average only of the head of the family. 1346. (Mr. Vallance.) I am not quite dear as to that. You have taken an average of the amount found or re- vealed by those immigrants ?—Yes. 1347. Is that average amount based upon the retire- number of immigrants including those who have nothing, and upon the computation of two children as an adult ?—I have here for 1902 9444 adults. 1348. 'Including two children counting, as one aduilt ?; —No—not yet. Then I have 2,015' children. For the purpose of this calculation I count these 2,015 children as 1,007 adults. Add this figure to the other and divide- it inw) the total sum, and so I get the average. 1349. (Chadrmcm.) That seems contrary to what you: told me. You told me you put the children out of the calculation, and only looked to the head of the family for the money?—I thought you were speaking; of the percentage of people who showed under 10s. 1350. So is Mr. Vallance?—I thought he was speak- ing of the average money per adult which they pro- duced to me. 1351. So we were. 1351*. (Mr. Vallance.) You also spoke of a certain number having less than 10s. upon them ?—Yes. 1352. How is that average obtained ?—I take the men and children for that average also, and I take two children as equal to one adult. 1353. (Chairman.) A man arrives and his wife and two children ?—Yes. 1354. Those would count as three?—Yes. 1355. The man produces 30s. ?—Yes. 1356. What do you take the average of the man's money ?—That would be 10s. 1357. Then yom do count in the women and children ? —Yes. 1358. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you, in your examination of these immigrants usually found them in good health ? —Yes, it has very seldom occurred that I have known ^ case of illness. 1359. And free from physical defect?—Free from physical defect. 1360. (Chairman.) So far as you know?—Yes. 1361. So far as is apparent ?—Yes. 1362. (Lord Rothschild.) When you go on board the ship do you go in plain clothes or in uniform ?—In plain clothes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 57 1363. They recognise you immediately as a Govern- ment inspector?—I declare myself as being such to them. 1364. You think they do not hesitate to tell you the truth and the whole truth. • They tell you exactly how much money they bring, and so on ?—I believe I get a fairly accurate account of them. I believe being in uniform would make no difference, and I believe that because in 1900 the heads of the Jewish community here, or some of them, interested themselves to get an article put into the foreign Jewish papers, into a Russian paper, and also into an Austrian paper. I have the papers here with me. The article was printed in Hebrew, and it represented to these immigrants that there was an official from the Government who came on board at Gravesend and accompanied the ships to London, and put questions to them as to their means, and as to their destination, and that there was a com- plaint here about so many people arriving with no means, and remaining in London, and it was to their own advantage and to the advantage of the Jewish com- munity generally that they should state the truth. I took those papers with me on board. I had a copy supplied to me by the superintendent of the Jewish shelter, and I got someone from among the immigrants to read the article to them. Invariably there was someone able to read Hebrew, and I used to get some- one to read this article to them, but that made little or no difference to their declaring their destination. 1365. Your deputy does not converse, I think, so freely as you do, or rather, the officer who goes on board alternately with you?—No. 1366. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to the boarding of the ships, I understand that you get 11 boats per week ?—Yes, a total of 11. 1367. Do you board them all yourself?—All but three or four really. There are four arrivals from Rotterdam weekly—those I do not board. 1368. Who boards them?—'Mr. Anderson. 1369. Is he your assistant ?—In that respect. 1370. Does he speak Yiddish?—'No.. I believe he is able to question them just as to their means and names, and so on, but I do not think he would claim to be able to speak Yiddish. 1371. Do you think the information' he gets is as accurate as you would get ?—I have no reason to think otherwise. 1372. Does anybody from the Jewish community go on board with you, or is he on board at the same time with you?—There is an officer from the Jewish shelter goes on board before I leave, as a rule. 1373. What is his name?—Godfrey. 1374. He is the officer of the Jewish Shelter, and he boards the ship at the same time as you do ?—No, before I leave it. I board the ship at Gravesend and accom- pany her to London. He comes on board at London. 1375. Does he assist you in1 the inquiries you make ?— Not at all. 1376. What is the object of his going on board ?—To meet the immigrants and accompany them to the Jewish Shelter, or to see that they are put into the hands of trustworthy people to be taken to their address, sup- posing them to have good addresses. 1377. You speak Yiddish yourself to# a certain extent ? —To a certain extent. 1378. Can you make yourself clearly understood ?—- Clearly understood. I am also able to read a little. 1379. Is there any leaflet or instruction given to these people at the port of departure beyond that about which you have told us published in the paper ? Is there any leaflet or instruction given to them to disclose to you what they possess or where they are going, and so forth? —-I am not aware of any. * 1380. With regard to the condition of the immigrants, you say that they are, generally speaking, clean and in good condition?—Yes. There may be an exceptional case, one being dirty, but it is an exceptional case. 1381. Have you any special list of those who are not in good condition?—We have no special list. That list that I heard referred to on Monday by Mr. Arnold -White is a list belonging to the port sanitary authority. At the time of the cholera the port sanitary authority placed medical officers at Gravesend to medically in- spect those immigrants on their arrival. The Customs (5144 put them on board. They came in the Customs' launch j^r to the ships, and they went on board, and they had T. Hawkey. the people brought before them and made a medical in--- spection of them, and then they had two lists. At first 8 May 1902. they placed them all on one list, but after a while they drew a distinction between them, and they had two lists numbered 1 and 2. No. 2 referred to people who were considered to be unwholesome—filthy or otherwise unwholesome, and under the Public Health Act they detained these on board. They furnished the cap- tain with a list of these people, and under the Public Health Act, he was not allowed to allow them to go on land until he received permission from the port sanitary authority. The Public Health Act, 1892, is the one they acted upon, I believe. Then on the vessel's arrival in London the inspector from the port sanitary authority went on board and liberated all those on No. 1 list, but the remainder, those on No. 2, remained on board till the sanction of Dr. Collingridge—then the port medical officer of London—was obtained for their release. They were invariably released. 1382. What time are you speaking of ?—That ceased in 1894. 1383. Such measures are only taken at the time of an epidemic abroad, such as the cholera epidemic at Hamburg ?—Yes. 1384. Otherwise no such precautions are taken?—- No. 1385. {Chairman.) That is a kind of quarantine ?—Yes. 1386. (Major Evans-Gordon.) As a rule, at ordinary times, there are no such precautions taken—they are not separated into different classes?—No. 1387. Does any medical officer board the ship at the, port of London ?—The medical officer has continued withi us in the Customs' launch since, and now there is a medical officer belonging to the port sanitary autho- rity in the Customs' launch, and he visits every ship. 1388. (Chairman.) At Gravesend or London?—At Gravesend. 1389. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What are his duties ?— He medically inspects vessels arriving from ports where epidemic diseases prevail. 1390. But not unless there are epidemics?—He is-,. there in the launch, and he hears the question put by the officer, and he hears the replies, and if he does not think they are satisfactory he goes on board and ex- amines the crew. 1391. And the passengers?—Passengers as well. 1392. How often does that happen % As a rule does; he remain in the launch, or does he always go on board ship r—He goes on board ships that arrive from ports . where epidemic disease prevails. 1393. It is not general?—No, only where epidemic. disease prevails. 1394. Does a medical officer invariably come out on., the Customs' launch?—Yes. 1395. If there is no epidemic, and he is satisfied witta. the report, he does not go on board the ship ?—No. 1396. It is only in fact where there is reason to sup- pose there is an epidemic ?-—Yes. 1397. That is the only medical examination ?—Yes. 1398. Supposing a ship arrives from a port like Bremen, and there is no suspicion or whisper of any epidemic or disease, does he go on board the ship then ? —Not unless the captain declares he has some illness. If the captain declared he had had some illness during the voyage he would. The Customs' officer puts the usual question, " Are you all well ? Have you had on the voyage any sickness ?" 1399. He asks that from the launch?—Yes. If the captain says, " Yes, I have had a case of sickness,'' the medical officer goes on board and sees the person. 1400. The person only ?—Then if he pleases it is in his discretion to examine all the passengers. If the case is one of an infectious nature, he removes it to the sanitary hospital in Gravesend. 1401. But if it were an ordinary case of death from ordinary disease he would not take any further steps to examine all the passengers and crew unless it were infectious ?—That is in his discretion—I have not known him to do it. 1402. (Chairman.) Are you quite sure in every case of every vessel arriving the medical officer goes alongside H"?5S ROYAL ommBSBB&S ON < ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ■'"Mr. ':TV Hawkey. 8 May 1902. in the launch far the purpose of asking these questions ? —Yes, he has 24 hours on duty and 48 off duty. There are three of them, and always one is in attendance. 1403. Up at Graves end?—Yes. Dr. Williams, I might be permitted to say, is the medical officer at Greenwich, and he could give you full information. 1404. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then this special list of specially undesirable people, or people in a filthy condi- : tiony was only compiled when ?—-The inspection began . in 1892, when the cholera broke out in Hamburg, and . it continued until 1894. 1405. And then it was dropped ?-—Yes. 1406. The special list was dropped then ?—-Yes—-all lists; . ;There were no .lists after that. : 1407While we are on this point of the condition of .• the people^ was there not a conference of the shipowners Ih with' regard' to the carrying of these people. Do you ; know-'about that P—-I know there was a conference in 1895. i :1408i^With: regard to rate cutting and so on ?-—Yes. 1409. Since that time the condition under which lothese people are carried has improved?'—Very much improved. 1410. And they come mostly on German ships ?—All on . German ships. . 1411. All ?—Except on the Dutch, ships—no English ships. 1..... ;1412. Are 'there any regulations on the German ships with; regard, to the conduct and condition of the pas- sengers?—Yes, each: passenger is furnished with a ... .ticfee^,; ,ajicl on, the, ba;ck of the ticket are. all the regula- . tio^s xi^ider wl)ich .lie sails, 'and what,,he is, entitled .to— what/ .space, ...what covering,. what food—everything is set out on the back of these tickets. 1413. Do the shipowners see and insist that .these people, shall. keep themselves in. a cleanly and proper condition while on board ?—Yes. , .. 1414. That is part of the regulation ?—They do. 1415. That would account for these people being in m, better condition now than they used to be ?—Yes. 1416.; The whole conditions of. the transport of these jpeople have, improved ?t—Yes.. 1417. You have just told us that some of these people ".'have very large* sums of money ?—Yes. 1418. The very large sums of money you mention ^would raise the average enormously ?—Yes, dt does. " 1419; It raises the average of the general amount — Yes, I have given the percentage of those with, none, and I have also given the percentage of those with under 10s. 1420. You said just now, I noticed, that you had : reason to suppose that some of the people went on who ; said they were going to remain ?—I have reason to sup- . ;pos© that (many go :on.. . - 1421. One of the reasons you gave us was that they nvere the? onost respectable-looking people. That is one of the - reasons which made you think they were going ,,pji 2^-1 said I..think, that, that .was the. reason which made ime think the twelve were going on, but it is not always the case. Sometimes very poor looking people -are going on. 1422.- With regard to those going on, I do not under- stand what the arrangement is. Do they get through tickets in Russia or wherever they depart from?—No, 'they pay their fares to agents in Russia, and they get no acknowledgment at all from the agent in Russia. 1423. (Chairman.) Their fare to America or to Eng- land, do you mean ?—Their fare to America—the through fare. 1424. {Major Evans-Gordon.) They arrive here with- out/tickets ?—Yes, simply with the addresses of the agents in London to whom they have to apply for their tickets. 1425. Who is the agent in London?—There are several. I see their addresses from time to time with , the passengers. One is Moses Feldman, 6, Church Lane ; another is I. Stern, 7, Little Holloway Street; a third is I. Kahan, 106, Commercial Road; and a fourth is J. Bloch, 41, Whitechapel Road. Those are "the - four engaged in this business. There have been others, but they have dropped off. _ 1426. Q!hese. are regular agents, to; whom these people are consigned ?—This is not their whole business.. They include this in their business. They are the people to whom these immigrants are consigned. 1427. An immigrant pays full fare at the pott of em- barkation, and arrives here without a ticket or anything —simply consigned to one of these agents?—He is ad- vised by the agent to whom he pays the fare to this agent in London. 1428. Do you know what happens to him after that ?— He applies to the agent for his ticket, and he gets hi J ticket, and is sent on to America so far as I know. 1429. Is there any condition with regard to the time he has to be in this country ?~The agent in London does not forward him until he receives advice or admits that he receives advice from the agent abroad. (Chairman.) What is the object of the break in the journey? 1430. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you know at all what the object or game is ?—The first time this thing came under my notice was in 1893, and then I found some passengers each furnished with a cheque issued by an agent named Flatau, in Hamburg. The cheque was for £5. .....There were several of the passengers, and they each had this cheque for £5, which I thought peculiar, so I asked them the reason, and the reason they gave me was that they did this to avoid changing their money in London. I said : " That will not do, because you must change this now, and you might as well change your foreign money here." They paid. 130 marks for this and their passage to London, to this agent, so they told me, but I found out afterwards that these were through passengers to America, and they were sent via Southampton. Some weeks or so! after- wards they went via Southampton to America. They were sent away from London. That was the first time -it came under my notice that people were arriving here as immigrants who were bond fide transmigrants to America, and were not admitting the fact to me. . , 1431. (Chairman.) Can you tell us what was the object of the secrecy? Why do not they take their through tickets and show them ?—I believe it is the oppo- sition of the German authorities to have certain people passing through their country to England for shipment from Eilgland to America. The German Companies, the North German Lloyd and the Hamburg-American Line, have ships going to America, and these passengers might go by their ships, and if they do not go by their ~ ships, the Hamburg-American Line and the North Ger- man Lloyd do not get any benefit from them. Therefore they object to their coming through, I understand. There was an arrangement come to in 1895 by the transatlantic shipping companies' both English and foreign by which they agreed, I believe, that the foreign companies should charge £7 10s. for the steerage passage to America and the English companies should charge £5 10s. from London or any port in England to America, and the German companies would pay the "balance of £2 into a common fund which was to> be divided amongst all the companies, and in return for this concession the English companies were not to book foreign passengers who had not resided six weeks in the United Kingdom. 1432. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is what I wanted to get at ?—Now, these foreign agents book these pas- sengers in Russia, send them through Germany clandes- tinely to London, and then instead of this £2 balance going into the common fund, it is put into the agents' pocket. I suppose -that is the object. 1433. That is the object of it?—That is it, as I under- stand ; but the Commission will get better information on that -head probably from others. This is second- hand. I have no personal knowledge of it, only what I am informed, but I believe that is correct. I believe there is sufficient evidence to show that this is the correct view. * 1434. How long does that man stop here, and who supports him while he is here?—The agent is respon- sible to support him, but the agent does not acknow- ledge him until he receives advice or says he has re- ceived advice from the Russian agent. If the passenger presents himself to the agent, and says: "I have paid my fare to So-and-so in Russia," the agent says : " Well, I do not know anything about you yet. You must call again." That is what the agent says if he has not got an advice. Then the passenger calls again, and he has to go on calling until the advice arrives. 1435. He keeps him cruising on and off until, he -has got the advice?—That is as I understand it, 1436. That may be some time. time?—That may be soineMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 59 iWith regard to this agreement about their stay- ing .six weeks an t-liis ©ountry/ who looks af ter-tbem dur- ing that six weeks.:,, You. say the agent is supposed to ? —But they , do not stay six weeks. I should havemen- tioned that im!899, .the Beaver. Line started, and they are not in this agreement or arrangement which was made by the other companies. The Beaver Line will take ipassengeri from England to America independent of thel time; of their stay here. : r r. 1438. Those "would not be passengers who had taken thefrr through tickets in Russia ?—Yes, they come to London. That is only since 1899. Previous to 1899 a;ll the^dohipanieswere in this agreement, but; sinee .1899 the Beaver Line is outside this agreement, and it takes ^ passengers to America independent of their stay in the - United Kingdom; but no other company does that pro- fessedly. • 1459.; If they; go by the other companies they would have to stay the six weeks in London,?^Yes, if they went by any other than the Beaver Line, or else deceive the - oompany by salying they had been here that time. ^ 1440. Do you know at all with regard to these agents1 youffet'e'^^'ta^ii'ed where- th^y com© in :?'and*fthen the agent here gets a commission on the booking again. 1442; (Chairman.) . Who pays the commission, iand what becomes of the man .who has nothing in. his pocket when he is kept calling at the office. How is he sup-' portM, aiid who pays the commission( to the agent ?— I suppose the agent abroad is in company with 'the ageiit here. They' are partners in a firm, so to speak. 1443. A combine ?-—Yes. 1444. Where does the money come from to pay the combi?n6 ?^-Ifsuppose they divide the profits. 1445. Where does . the profit come from ?—From the transmigrants. 1446. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There is a lump sum paid in Russia P — Yes, the transmigrant pays his fare in Russia. 1447. (Chairman.) What is the use of two agents. You have not told me yet why he cannot contract to go straight to America ?—It is the agent's business. It is the business of these Russian agents. . They succeed in getting more profit through it. If the passenger booked abroad his fare in the ordinary way through one of these oonf^ahies—say theAmerican Line, or the White Star Linfev(I have met passengers constantly for these lines with through tickets who have booked abroad)—the balance between what is charged there and what would be'6harged here goes into the pool, and the foreign* com- panies get some profit out of it. 1448. Are these names you have given us the names of the1 agents who* do make these arrangements ?;—'Who are concerned in these arrangements. f 1449. Are they the agents' of any shipping line that you can; give us ?—They are authorised by the Beaver Line, I believe. 1450. Who represents, the Beaver Line ?—Elder, Dkfr jester, I believe. 1451. Who is Mr. Landau?—He is the president or r founder of the Jewish Shelter in,Leman Street. The Superintendent of the! Jewish Shelter,, Mr. Somper, is t the Oxie from5 whom I have received most' of this infor- mation, and you will get it first hand from him. There • is one case, if I may bring it before you. In 1895 there was' a/£as& occuiTed in Lofidon where six of these Russians applied at one of: the London Courts. They sought to prosecute one of these agents for having kept them here for several weeks, and for refusing to send thorn' on after they .had paid their fares abroad to Ainerica. The London magistrate said he had no j uris- diction, as the money had been paid abroad'; but one ofyfeheifesHvn- papers* ;rthe:" Hashulamith,'-' gave a com- pleter account / of th.isy-.aHd I translated:from this the story which these six Russians told. Would you like me to read it. 6144 . 1452.. Yes ?—It is not very long. : There are some re- > jfr ■> marks from the editor at the 'commencement with which T.< Hawkey. I will not trouble the Commission. I will just give you - 4® their story They said : " We are six persons, and we > J ^ay 1902. come from Brisk, where five of us paid 85 roubles each to Meczyk's brother-in-law, who is an agent" (Mr. Meczyk was an agent at that time, concerned in this business in London, and his office was 11, Church Lane), " for our fare to America. With the usual difficulty we got across the frontier, and finally reached London. We have during the whole journey concealed the fact that we were goihg to America, and stated that we were going only vJor.Lon!(i0n,y,ast-jlihe.agents told us that most- of the shipping,companies would not carry Russian emigrants to America." Then the editor makes a note : " There- fore they bring all the Russian emigrants to London, and there do, a little swindle, and they write in. the ticket that • the emigrants are already six or eight months in London." That.is.his note. " On arriving in London a: man came to us, and asked us if we were going to America. We were, of course, afraid, and answered that we intended to stay in London. Thereupon the man said that London was a free plafce, and we need not- be afraid to say what office we wanted. Then he asked us. if we Tvere fPr Meczyk's agency, and of course we were more afraid, but then he showed us a list from Meczyk with, our names on it, and so we accompanied him to > Meczyk's; office r ;Mr. Meczyk told us that as it was : Friday it was, cop late to send us away this week, but he / would sendtus by the first ship that sailed the next week, * We could not say .anything against that, and one took us with our baggage to Meczyk's brother's in Princes, Street." 1453. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Meczyk's brother is the agent's brother?—Yes. The agent's brother had a lodging house, to which they were taken,.. " After Sab- bath we began to understand how great our misfortune: was. Mr. Meczyk would not send us away, One day he said that no money had arrived, and the the next day * that money had arrived for three only. Again, he said that.he had not received any money from his brother-in- law at all. Then he said that he had received from his brother-in-law the money that we had paid him for our passag<3^to America^ but as his' brother-in-law owed him money for some time he would keep ours to discharge that debt, and would not send us away till his brother- in-law sent him the money he owed him. So he led us by the-nose from day to day. We made a disturbance in. the synagogue, and he had us turned out by the police. We are three weeks in London, and we are starving."' That ,is taken from the " Hashulamith " of. the. 4th. October, 1895. . . . . ... • 1454. (Chairman.) What became of these men ?—This:, is what the editor says.- It is the editor who is telling this story. They call these new arrivals greeners. " The greeners; had scarcely finished their unhappy story when Mr. Meczyk passed by. The crowd accompanied him home with hooting." 1455.. The story was told before a magistrate ?—I do not know how much came out before the magistrate: It was taken into one of our courts, but the magistrate said he had no jurisdiction, as the money was paid. abroad.. What has become of them I do not know. This is only the completion of that night's history. They sought to turn them out from the lodging-house where- they. were, in consequence of their having made that. disturbance, but the editor of " Hashulamith " took up- their case, and explained it to the police, and so they were not turned outv . What became of them ultimately- I do riot know. Whether they went on, or went back, I could not say. 1456. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Generally, what you understand of this matter is that the advantage of this system of booking is. that the agent in Russia or at the port of embarkation gets a profit out of the ticket by sending them as far as England, and that they are con- signed to agents here who make a profit out of keeping them here and taking them, on ?—I do not know about the latter part, I should like to try and make it clear as I understand it. Supposing the emigrant booked abroad at an agency for the American Jine, he would have ito pay £7. -JLQiSv from . any , German .port to America plus the amount that it would take, to forward him to Germany, wihiLch would be perhaps about £2 more, so it would cost him about 100 roubles. £2 out of that total would be put into a pool by theAmerican Line to be divided amongst all the' linens'. -If he ; books. at one cf these agencies we are speaking about, 'he pays the sam e mon ey - or 'about that: 95 roubles to 100 roubles is what they pay. I asked them how much they paid, and they H 260 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr,. said 95 roubles to 100 roubles, but these agents do not T. Hawkey. put the £2 into the pool. That £2 is nob pooled to be ----' divided amongst the shipping companies ; iit is. divided 8 May 19 j2. amongst themselves. 1457. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Does it come to this, that if he book's through from Germany to America it(he fare is really more than if he books first from Germany to England and then from England to America ?—It is more. 1458. The difference you suggest may go into the agent's pocket ?—Yes. * 1459. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is evidently a regular traffic between these different agencies in these people?—There is. I reported in 1900 to the Board of Trade on the information of the Superintendent of the Jewish Shelter and also of the agent in London for the Beaver Line, Mrs. Kendall, through her clerk, Mr. Bennett, that there were over 600 people as the accumu- lation of three weeks sent by the Great Western Railway from Paddington to Liverpool, and I submit the Com- mission might get some information as to the actual numbers forwarded for shipment by the Beaver Line from the Great Western Railway Company. If the stationmaster at Paddington were questioned as to the number of people who go by his line to Liverpool he could give some information I am sure. Most of these people are of the class that we are speaking about. The bulk of these people have paid abroad their fares to America, and have arrived here without through tickets. 1460. And have been handled by the agents here?— Yes, and sent on. 1461. It is to the interest of the agent also to keep them in London for some time. 1461*. (Chairman.) If they had through tickets would that carry them on the Great Western ?—No, not neces- sarily. If they have through tickets they can go by any route. They would go by the North-Western pro- bably then. 1462. A through ticket would carry them across JDnglaj id ?—Yeis. 1463. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Ycu divide these people into classes. First of all how many of those with through tickets are there that tell you they are going on?—They 'have been very few of late. In 1894 and "1895 they amounted to 1,290 out of the total of 8,345. 'That As 15*4 per cent., but they have came down in 1901 to 2*8 per cent. 1464. Those who have got through tickets?—Yes, very few arrive with through tickets. 1465. (Chairman.) Can you form any estimate how many were going on?—No, that is 'all I have to go by. 'That was in the summer time, and naturally there Would 'be more going tihen than in the winter. At that -time there were 200 per week or about that just for that •rshort time. 1466. Arriving ?—Arriving, and going on. I made a note of it at that time that not more than 50 per week told me they were going to America, or declared to me that their flares were paid abroad. 1467. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How did you know 200 were going on?—Through the Superintendent of the Shelter, and through the clei*k of Mrs. Kendall, Mr. Bennett, who corroborated what was said. He said, "243 are going to-night." That is for one week. They were going from Paddington. T(he previous week they had sent away more than 600 as the accumulation of three weeks, -and there were 243 going that night from Paddington to be put on board tihe Beaver Line for Canada. 1468. What sort of proportion would they be of the general arrivals in the busy time ?—They would s 8 per cent, tnat declared to me, or that I found ooit through others after a visit to the -sihelter. In some 'cases I interrogated the people there, and got information from them that they Had paid abroad their fares to America. I was not depending entirely on the information I gob at the Shelter. I saw the people there, and they had admitted in .the mean time that they were going to America, and, therefore, they oould not hide it from me. They told me to whom they paid the fares, and to whom they were going in London. 1475. Lid you ask them why they had concealed the information ?—I did in the presence of the superintend- ent of the Shelter. They said the agents said they were not to say. I said, " Did they say you were not to say when you arrived in London " ? 1476. Have you ever asked the agents in London ?— Yets. These agents in London say it is not they that do it, and they have taken steps to persuade their col- leagues abroad that there is no cause for concealment, but still it goes on. 1477. Then there would be a third class—those who come to stay with money ?—I have got them under the head of " other aliens." 1478. What is the proportion of them ?—They are 34 per 'cent, taking thorn altogether. Perhaps I had better take them for the last year. There were 10-y per cent, immigrants—those who were really coming to stay in this country, Germans and Dutch people— principally waiters, gardeners, barbers, and so on— respectable people, and having a good many of them already situations provided for them. 1479. Those are the people who come to stay with money ?—Ye®. 1480. Then there would be a fourth class of those who come to stay without money ?—No, these would be " im- migrants." I am dividing " the other aliens " into immi- grants, visitors returning to this country, sailors, and itinerants, like musicians who go about the streets. They do not remain long. They come over for the summer, and go back at the end of the summer. I make a distinct class of them, called itinerants. Then the immigrants amongst the other aliens who come really to stay amounted to 10 per cent, of the total immigration into London, and the others, put together, itinerants, visitors, residents in the United Kingdom, returning to- England who had just been on a visit to the Con- tinent, and sailors amounted to 16 per cent. 1481. That is apart from the steerage passengers?— " Other aliens " are together 26 per cent, of the whole immigration. Then I mentioned for the last year the steerage immigrants were 62 per cent., and then you have the balance as " transmigrants." 1482. The most respectable class are those that you have just mentioned?—Yes. 1483. What is the relative amount of baggage in each case ? Have they all got baggage with them ?—The Russian immigrants, Roumanians and Austrians, etc., in the steerage invariably have with them a hand-bag. If it is a family they have a bundle of bedding invariably besides a hand-bag. If you average the steerage immi- grants at one package each it would not be far out. 1484. Do those who are going to stay here have more baggage than those who are going on?—No. 1485. Less baggage?—Less baggage generally. 1486. They are the poorer sort as a rule ?—Many of them come here with the sums of money which I have mentioned, and they are fairly well off. They cxmie here to see which they will do—whether they will stay here or go on. They decide after they have arrived here. They are not always the poorest who represent themselves as going to remain here. Very respectable people sometimes come and say they will stop if they can get something to do, and if it suits them. They make up their minds later on. 1487. Generally speaking, with a view to the restric- tive laws that exist in America, there would be a tendency for the poorer class to remain here and for the better class to go on ?—There would be that tendency. 1488. How do you collect the people for examination on the ship?—The ship's company invariably give me some assistance. 1489. Do you collect them on the upper deck, or where?—I get them into the steerage into their awn place.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 61 1490. Between decks?—Yes. 1491. Can you see them pretty well there ?—I can see them all. In the summer time, when it is very hot, I get them together, securely if I can so that they can- not elude me, in a part of the upper deck—any part of the ship on deck where they can get air. I prefer to do that. 1492. Between decks on a ship like that, have you any good opportunity of judging as to their condition and appearance, and cleanliness, and so forth?—One's experience is not confined to seeing them there. One •sees them on deck. I have two or three hours to see them, and speak to them, and so on. 1493. Now with regard to ages, are many of them old people P—Very few of them are old. 1494. There are some old ?—There are some old com- ing to their children. 1495. Coming over here to their children ?—Yes. 1496. Do you know whether those agents you have spoken of have any connection with the Shipping Com- panies ?■—Yes; they are acknowledged as agents for the Shipping Company—the Beaver Line. 1497. But not these German lines?—Do you mean these Russian agents? 1498. I mean all these four you have mentioned ?— "These four are agents for the Beaver Line, and I under- hand that an agency for the Beaver Line excludes them from acting as agents for any of the other lines. 1499. So they are committed to the Beaver Line?— Yes, they are confined to that. 1500. They are the agents for the Beaver Line?— Yes. 1501. And agents in correspondence with the people ■abroad ?—Yes. 1502. With regard to this arrangement about the ships, you say it is evaded by this arrangement with the Beaver Line?—Yes. 1503. With the object, you think, of diverting this £2 into the pocket of the agent instead of to the pool?—That is the object of those agents which I have mentioned. They make more by it. 1504. How do they manage that? Do these people change their names?—No. Since 1899, since the people ■can go straight through England to America, there is no need for them to change their names; but if they thought of going by one of the other lines, supposing there was not a Beaver Line ship ready and they thought of going by one of the other lines, and they did not remain here six weeks, then probably they would change their names. 1505. Have you any communication directly or in- directly with these agents?—I have been to each of them at some time, but I found that they would not give mej except Mr. Kahan in Commercial Road, -any information. I get good information from him as the Libau ships. I get good information from him as to the Libau. ships ; but I have never received informa- tion from the others. 1506. Mr. Kahan gives you information with regard to those who are going on ?—Yes. 1507. Do you check the information which you have •collected on board the ship by what he gives you ?—The iigures which I have given this morning are for the immigrants arriving from Hamburg, Bremen, and Rotterdam. X keep distinct from this return those arriving from Libau. The particulars on the Libau ships are taken through a sub- sequent order of the Board in 1896, so thev are returned separately from the others. One is made under one order and another under another order, but Mr. Kahan is the agent in London for these Libau vessels, and I have had much information from him as to those that go on. The people on the Libau vessels, the passengers arriving by the Libau steamers, are provided with vouchers by the agent in Libau, Knie, and these vouchers state what their destination is. Each person is provided with a voucher, and on the voucher is stated whether his destination is London or Africa or America and Kahan corroborates by saying that he has advice from the agent, and that these people have paid their fares, and are going through. 1508. They receive nothing to show that they are going through?—They receive this voucher. 1509. Those-from Libau, but not at the others?—The others receive nothing. 1510. They have nothing at all?—Nothing. 1511. They are absolutely at the mercy of these people T. Hawkey. then ? Absolutely. 8 M^7«52. 1512. Then there would be a direct advantage to the»e —- agents to induce people to come over here ?—To induce them to come over here in that way to go through. 1513. The more that come the better they are pleased?—The more that book to America; I do not see any object otherwise. 1514. Do not those -that are not going througjh have any truck with the agents here at all?—No. 1515. None ?—Not so far as I know. 1516. But the people over there would get the advantage of sending them?—Oh, yes. 1517. They do not do the business for nothing ?—No. 1518. So the more that come the more they would be pleased at all?—No doubt. 1519. Nobody helps you in the translating to these people at aJ- ?—No. 1520. You can manage for yourself as regards that ?— Yes. 1521. Those that have real through tickets produce them ?—Yes. 1522. You. have no difficulty with them?—'No diffi- culty at all. 1523. With regard to those that do not produce through tickets, do you ever put them down m your return as transmigrants?—Yes, I put them down as transmigrants without through tickets. 1524. And that information you arrive at from the source you have told us of?—Yes, the average trans- migrants without through tickets for the eight years of this return is 5 per cent., the same amount as those which have through tickets, who are 5 per cent, also for the eight years, but many more than that go on. 1525. I suppose it would be to the advantage of the agent here to keep these people who stay the six weeks in London?—But he doeg not need to do so. As the Beaver Line is not in this agreement he can send them forthwith, and the sooner he gets rid of them the better. 1526. But those that go by the other lines have to stay six weeks ?—If any do go by the other lines. I do not know of any going by the other lines. There was a case recently where a family arrived by the Bremen boat. The superintendent of the shelter will be able to say more about them than I can, -but I might just mention that there was a family arrived by the B/emen boat of 11 persons. As a matter of fact they comprised two families. They would not wait for the Beaver Line ship, which was sailing some week or ten days lateT, so they went by another vessel, and they changed their names. That information I have from the shelter. They went out, and I sent the report to the Board of Trade, so that they might be traced under another name. 1527. They changed their name in order to avoid going by the Beavei Line ?—In order not to remain here for six weeks. 1528. (Chairman.) Who paid for these people going ■out ?—They paid themselves. They booked their fares in L ondon. 1529. If passengers pay themselves, why should they avoid the Beaver Line : why are not they free agents: they are under contract to go by the Beaver Line ?_The other line is responsible through the agreement which has been made not to take passengers under six weeks residence in the United Kingdom. These passengers did not want to stop even for ten days. They did not want to be traced if anyone took the trouble to trace them, and, therefore, they altered their name. 1530. They would have had no evil consequences?-—1 No. 1531. It would be the shipping company?—Yes. 1532. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The shipping company would not have taken them?—No. In 1897 there were two agents from the Hamburg American Line. I saw them on their arrival. They came here to see how the English firms were carrying out this agreement, and one of them took an office at Tower Hill. His name was C. H. Harms. The agents in Russia took from the passengers a deposit of seven roubles, besides the fare, and from the deposit was deducted the cost of lodging in Hamburg or Bremen, and they had to apply to Mr. Harms at Tower Hill for the balance, and that broughtI 62v ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : them in corftae% witii"Mlm/ and^h@n^h© w^tchedAthem to 2&' <$ompmy ^oiild: ^ihasre 5 ^proved any of of them1 got money consigned in front of '> them to the agents ?—-They have1 told me they hav§Y. - •• (153)5. nPfr, i^all(wc&\)\ What o is-. :sthe fare from a Russian port to London, steer age?—-If they come direct fro^ J^b^^, X.thi^k^h^t4inre^bri3iLgs them oyer for ,as little as 18 roubles per adult person. r 4$36. What, is th^t, equal to ?—About - 36s, 1537. For an adult ?—Yes. 4t6$8.o And c<3(u=nt aspne adult. If the child is under three it pays nothijog.,, *1539* , It cost them > a^considerableasuan to; begin -with then?—rYes............. y..-7- *1 SWi^ifihMrmaril^ Is thete*^^ ^a^ie-^epil^ion oil the American side with; respect to- immigrants; coming - froin Libau or coming - from Southampton., Are v,the regulations the same in both; cases,, or do they I understand that most, of, .the transmigrants, as you have called rthem, cometothe eastern ports here, cross to Liverpool, and proceed by Liverpool to America?r-^Yes> • 1 • •• 1543. According to your accoiinta good many come to London also?—Yes. 1 ■■■'■<*■< 1544. You have given us the instance of two weeks of aboiit 200 each, which would amount to about 50 per cent ?—Yes. . 45,45. Do you fctiink "tliat, .is- & maint«dned_ result, or itexceptional 1—1 think it was exceptional. I do not'Siink tiiat is maintained. 1546. If there , is-no name change, it would be possi- ble, I suppose, to obtain, in the first place, the number of immigrants who arrive here, and then the number of immigrants going out to America in a period approach- ing that of the arrival period ?■—It would be possible. 1M7., Names are, taken of the immigrants, so as, prima facie to show whether they are foreigners or English ?-—If there was no change of the names,and these people really went out by the name by which they' came in, they could be traced by the Board of Trade in the emigration lists, but as it is, the Board of Trade is unable to trace them. . I give them information of those immigrants who have stated to me that they have paid-their i fares -abroad to America, but they cannot find them in the emigration lists because the names have been altered in some; way so as not to be identified. 1548. You can obtain a great number ?—Yes. 1549. You can approximately obtain the information is to how they do go on ?—Yes. ; 1550) - You have given the address of Dr. .Williams* the medical officer ?—At Greenwich. - 1551. Assuming the Commission were determined, to send down ah independent medical man to meet these immigrants upon their arrival, or to-• ascertain -their physical condition, would the immigrants, doyou think, submit to anything like an examination ?-r-Oh, yes, I am -sure they would. .... 1552. They might answer questions, but "supposing he said: "I want to :see if you are suffering from scrofula," would they isubaaifr?—I am sure they would. 1553. There is no obligation legally on them, but you think they would not object ?—From my experience I am sure they wouild not. I have had no difficulty m conducting the inquiry entrusted to me at any time. 1554. Can you give me any suggestions. In the-first ' place what would be a sufficient number of investiga- tions so as to produce a fair result of the condition: Would meeting two or three vessels suffice ?—I think it would. It is the same thing .over and over again. They are the same class of people. They vary- vetyv Httle,;, exceedingly? little. ......; .... ........ ......... ; ..,.y 1555. Is there any time of year when you think theii«i condition is better or worse than another -No, I think it is pretty uniform now. - .1556.-. You. Jiaye^spofeen favourably, of the states of .thei^,, health., disease:tiiat;eitherrtfeV adults or the children ^ould fee -suffering' could .mention, that, jpu think would fee '..likely ta be^ ■ detect'edTT-^Ido not know of *any disease.5 1557. Tafee the cage, of cleanliness itself or the exist- ence of vermin, cotild you suggest My^^'iil^whi® '^©-. could obtain evidence upon that? I do-not know that " a medical man would be better than anybody else. How could we obtain knowledge whether they were suffering: from filth as "distinguished from disease P^rThe exaMfnar- tion of their baggage as well as their appearance would? do that. . ,, v. ._r. ..... 1558. Who should you suggest should do that ?—The- Officers Of: .Customs. . . , 1559. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They do exaimine their baggage^ now P-—Yes. : , ■ 1560. {Chairman,) You would be one of them ?—Yes. 1561. You have examined their baggage ?—Yes.. Formerly-there was ^great dangerbefore 'the cholera epidemic in Hamburg you could not examine their'bag- gage- with any safety. You would be likely to get somer • vermin, but now you can do it; ;so f ar as I have had ex- - * perience of it, with perfect safety. ; ^ 1562. How long has that existed ?-—At that time the^ Gemlan authorities adopted very strict measures. X think"when they came across the fl-ontier "they had to be bathed and very often they had to be disinfected. They had to pay for it, and I believe that has all resulted in a much better condition. That is since 1892. Pre- vious to 1892 they were pretty bad, but since that time " they have been mu/cih better, and'they have continued to*w improve. . < 1563. You yourself are very impartial in this matter;. I do not conceive you have any feeling in the matter at all, but any person, I suppose, looking at this baggage —taking here and there out of each vessel three or four —would be able to form an opinion as to the general! condition P—Any person. ' 1564. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to their condition, would you be led to suppose that/ they are under-fed in any way ?—They do not look as if they had too much food. 1565. But the improvement in their condition is due to the point I brought out earlier about the regulations on board the ship, and the German regulations with regard to disinfection of baggage ?—That is so. 1566. The whole traffic in them has improved ?—Im- proved very much. 1567. If we thought fit to elaborate the statistics that are collected by you pro tem., would you have any difficulty in making a little more elaborate inquiry than you do now ?—None whatever. < 1568. You could elaborate, without much difficulty^ the information you already collect ?—Of course, if a more elaborate inquiry were to be established, then there would be more obligation laid upon the ship people, would not there,, and upon the people them- selves ? . ,1569.;Major, Gordon means a particular inquiry for the purpose of this evidence.. If we were to communicate with you and ask you to. find out "certain things1-for us '•dotild^" 'isb . I could do anything like that. * (®e proceedings were adjourned for a short time.)mimms m- wipskiE. 63 Mr. A. T; Williams, called ; and Examined. 1570. (2Major Evans^Gordon.) You are a member of 1foe liondonGounty^ Gouncil ?-r^Yes. 1571. For the Parliamentary Division of Stepney ?— ■ "Y©S^.>;' ,;J. -- : j f 1572^ Jjjd yorii are a; member of ;th© ®6usmg- Coitomit- " 'tee' of "the Lohdbri C&inty^ Caunpil P—Yes: v 1573. I understand you take an interest in this ques- tion of jalien immigration P-^Yes, I have taken a great interest in it since I have been representing Stepney. I did riot' take very much interest in it previously. In fact, I was rather of the opinion that Eligland should 1)© free to iailasa generalpririciple, but when I went 4own to the East End of London and came in touch • with- the^ people^ and> saw: the effect; ?it was 1 halving on -■*> i^^^i^ie^man^sand-th©^ •i^dividualfiainds on fthe increase ri^£#ent^ andson th© general' difficulty; of earning ;a liveli- hood;!I began to look into th© thing very carefullyi; and ^although' I refused at that time to attend >meetings or c identify myself with the question until I had more' fully .gone into it;;the; result of iriy investigations and the , i^yidence. I was able to obtain was that it had reached a , ,ve^ s#ious >stage indeed, and that a very great number . of. the people in Stepney whom I had to represent, and whose interests I was supposed to study,, were 'being most adversely affected by the great number of aliens. : .Stepiiey, perhaps, is the centre of the whole question, rij-ffttfethe'-most congested part that there is. ;I was told, .....4s lone of'the arguments used against anything being ^ done, that the alien population of the country was only •2 per^enti*:of the v^ole population, and that it would • foe abstird to legislate for such a very small number as 2; per cent, of a whole population,^ but when I went-down to Stepney, I found that the whole, or the greater part ' of; the aliens who came to this • country, were concen- trated in that one district. ■t?J"y '1574. Eighteen * per n cent.- lin Stepney ? ^•1 %'o^ I shall be able-to prove in my evidence that if is something very large indeedj and I shpul most desperate efforts to create a elientele at a distance ; because he find's those British people^ who used to deal with him have left, their houses being now taken up by the aliens, and he is unable to find any customers to buy his goods. 1582. What was his trade?—He was in the leather trade. I have his name and address here. . 1583; Is there any compensating trade either in milk or leather from the aliens,?—They will not deal with the British shopkeepers at all; they deal with their own people. 1584: Is there a foreign milk dealer; has1 he sup- planted your first instance4 ?^My man is told not to call, 'but there is no chance of his getting the trade if milk is taken. I do not know whether milk is taken by the aliens. I think I shall show a little later on it is not one of the articles that is very largely consumed. This man that I am speaking of employed something like 12 assistants, most of them married with families, and they are unable to get rooms in the neigh- bourhood ; they live at a distance. The point I am try- ing to make is this : This man will probably very soon realise that the struggle to carry on his business there is too much, and, in fact, he as good as told me that he will realise what he can before, he has lost too- much money, and he will retire on what he has got and risk his capital somewhere else. These employees, who are married men with families, have nothing else to look forward to but getting turned out. He told me a very interesting thing—-I give it for what it is worth—that some of these Jewish customers, who still came to his shop,, .for certain articles, which were not obtainable . elsewhere owing to his keeping a very large stock, told : him that the Rabbis tell the Jews always to buy from their own countrymen. They give them instructions of that sort. Of course, that is an exceedingly difficult thing to prove. I am assured of this by a man who I think is an honourable man, that people come to him, and he, doubtless to push his trade, says, "Why don't. you buy more of'me?" and' these Jews eay, " Well, we are instructed by the Rabbis to go and support our own people "; and he also said he had been told, which is a very remarkable thing indeed, that if the reply is, "Oh, we cannot go and buy from So-and-So," who is their own countryman, their own coreligionist, steps are taken by the Rabbi to see that the prices charged are not exorbitant. I give that fox what it, is worth; I have no evidence of that whatsoever. If I could get the names of the persons, I have no doubt that they would not be prepared to come up and substantiate this point. I merely give that as being a very interest- ing fact that occurred to me. May I take another case ? 1585. (Chairman.) I wish you would inquire whether there have been substituted tradesmen in the milk and leather trade you just mentioned, where the direction could be carried out?—I have no doubt whatever it is so. 1586. Just inquire, please ?—^ery well, my Lord. I will just give you a-few. , specimen - cases. . I take th e case of a man named Turner; he is a shoemaker; he runs a tiny - little? shanty—it is not a shop, merely a kind of little rough shantyrvery small, on a yearlv tenancy; but last * July this property was bought by,, a Mr. A. T% Williams* 8 May 1902,64 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. A. T. foreign Jew, who promptly came in and gave him Williams, notice. The man knew he had got a yearly tenancy, so 1 lie took no notice of fthe notice. A few days after the 8 May 1902. jew called in and said, " Now you have to go; I shall not keep you when your term is run out/' adding, " You had better make am arrangement with me. I will give you a weekly tenancy; you pay eighteen pence a week more rent on a weekly tenancy, and I will keep you on, otherwise when your time is up you will have to go." 1587. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The rent was for the little shed, not the house ?—Yes, the little shed. There is another little shed; it is called a shop, but it is not really more than a shed; and there is a small shop too, which, until this property was bought by this foreigner, just fetched £30 a year for the lot. These three build- ings, including the two- we dignify by the name of shops —they are nothing much more than sheds—which fetched £30 a year, are now fetching £90 on the basis of this increased rent; the other two are already let. This man I am speaking of is being turned out very shortly, and then the increased rent at which he is offered to be kept on will bring the rent of that pro- perty up to £90. 1688. (Chairman.) What is going to be carried on— the same business ?—I have no means of knowing that ait all. iSheds where foreign Jews take property are in very great demand, and very many of the backyards of the houses which the foreign Jews are inhabiting are used as little manufactories for storing dirty rags or manufacturing mineral waters; I will deal with that a little later on. This man who has ,got to go has got five children, and it rather weighs oil him. He is think- ing of what he will do, and where he will find a place, because the difficulty of getting in with five children is enormous at anything like a- reasonable rent, and the foreign Jew has brought this forward, and has not failed -to remind him of the size of his family, and said, " Now" if you get out of here, and you do not pay me this increased rent, you will never get a place again. You had better pay me the increased rent and stay on here on a weekly tenancy." That man, I -think, will come up and give his name to the Commission. 1589. You will hand that name to Major Gordon?— Yes. There are many more instances that one could give of tradesmen who are finding their trade steadily being ruined, because their customers whom they have lived on are driven away, and the aliens wh© have come in and taken their place only deal with their own co- religionists. 1590. I think it important to find out whether there has been an establishment of (Afferent tradesmen by these alien immigrants P 1591. (Major Evans-Gordon, j That is very easily established, my Lord. I know personally many instances where t'hey have been. Then we maj- leave the instances; you can give me the lists of instances, and we can call the people, or some of tlhem, who would be ready to appear. Of course there would be a tendency among people who are about to sell their business, and so on, to show a disinclination to come forward and say their businesses had gone down very much, because that would affect the price they would get for them?—Yes. Very many of these people have got foreign landlords, and very many of these people have paid the increase. I could give you scores and scores of instances of people who' have had to submit to their rents being raised. There are a great many people in the East End who must live on the spot; they have got to live on the spot, and they cannot go and live at Walthamstow or anywhere like that. They have to live on the spot, and they are pay- ing to-day under protest and with the deepest indigna- tion these very largely increased rents. 1592. (Chairman.) How have these foreign: landlords, as you call them, obtained the means to become the owners of these houses ?—May I deal with that a little later on? I have got a number of transactions with dates when the various properties have passed into the hands of these people. 1593. Can you state generally who the persons you say are foreign landlords are, alien immigrants who came into the port of London?—Some of them are, and as they get a little money they become most frugal—ami hard-working. There is no doubt about that. The r/ultv with these immigrant aliens is to stop their working. They work so industriously; they will work all day and all night They are the most extra- ordinary workers, and are most thrifty. I know the case of a foreign immigrant who came into this country, my Lord, and he was paid 5s. a week, and he saved a halfpenny a week out of that, and now in about 16 years that man is worth £40,000 or £50,000, and he is living to-day I was going to say on not much more than when he was earning 5s. a week. 1594. How did he make the £50,000 ?—On that prin- ciple—unending toil, and not requiring, I will not say the luxuries, but. the ordinary necessities of life which an Englishman would. 1595. He could not have saved it out of wages, but how did he get it? What was his speculation?—The fact is that man is in the timber trade, and he has no doubt made his money in that; but that has been the principle, never spending a single farthing, which is the great characteristic of the aliens. 1596. He must have done it by some trade. # Do you suggest they ought to be stopped from coming into trade?—No. That arose out of the fact of my saying that this man earned 5s. a week at first, and he saved a halfpenny a week out of it. I was illustrating the thrift. There is a case. I have no doubt at all that a man of that sort acquires house property. 1597. I want to know how he acquired it, because I do not see how out of a halfpenny a week this £40,000 or £50,000 came into existence. Did he become a mer- chant?—Yes, he entered into the timber trade. 1598. If he entered into the timber trade he was successful and made his money. Do you suggest he ought not to be allowed to enter the timber trade?— No, I do not; but I say that a man like that is able to do without, not luxuries, but what would be to an Englishman necessities. A man like that on 5s. a week practically lives on bread and oil and salt herrings per- haps—herrings and vinegar. No Englishman could live on that amount of 5s. a week, much less save a half- penny. 1599. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You referred in your opening remarks to the wages ?—There is a point I make there. I believe one of the great reasons why it is said that these aliens are an advantage which counter- balances all the overcrowding and everything else, is that they give us cheaply manufactured articles. There are certain articles which they can manufacture, coming over, living so cheaply as they do, and working long hours, which are put on the market at a very much cheaper rate than they ever have been before, owing to their being made by these aliens. That is all right so far as it goes, but my position is this : we have prac- tically adopted trade union imnciples in this country ; the London County Council only give contracts on their terms ; how can we pretend to congratulate ourselves on the result of underpaid labour, resulting in these cheap waistcoats and slippers, and these various otlier things, when they are produced under conditions so exactly opposite to what we profess to give the ordinary workman? That is a point that has never been able to find any reasonable solution in my opinion. It appears to me to be quite antagonistic to the principles of trade unionism. But the one point which I think outweighs all the others, if I might speak of that, is the housing question of these people. That is the one vital and important point which interests every- body from the King on the throne to the poorest person who has got to pay 4s. for his room; and there never will be, as far as I can see, any solution of the difficulty of housing people in the East End so long as you are fill- ing the East End up with the aliens. You are turning the tap on at one place, taking people out into the suburbs and the colonies, and you are pouring in at the top of the cask all the time far more than you are taking out. 1600. That pouring in would proceed from two sources —first the increase of the people who arrive here?—The increase of the people who come, and their families. 1601. The people who are coming, and, secondly, the natural increase of the people already here?—Yes, the natural increase of the foreign element. 1602. When the last inquiry into this subject was held the alien influx had been felt practically m a small part of the East End only ?—Absolutely none. I shall tell you of streets where an alien was unknown at the time of the 1888 Commission. 1603 They have been spreading steadily through the East End?—Yes. You will find they are overwhelming where five years ago there was not a foreigner. 1604. Will you proceed, Mr. Williams, with yourMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 65 evidence ?—I was going to say that the London County Council have put into execution in the last two or three years Part 3 of the Housing Act, which enables it to acquire land outside the borders, and construct practi- cally villages, almost towns, as in one case, with the idea that with increased accommodation the people from the East End, who do not have to live where they work, would be taken out into this kind of village, and would be provided for there. Thus room would be made in the East End, and there would not be this terrible congestion, which results in increased rents. This policy is being absolutely nullified by the great stream of aliens who come into the East End.. As fast as you take out some of the people who can go away to White Hart Lane, where we are going to have 70,000 or 60,000 people, the aliens are pouring in and taking their places, with the result that the con- gestion remains exactly the same- If you stop the alien immigration coming to East London you would see house rents would fall in a very short time. They never will fall as long as you allow unrestricted immigration. I should like to deal a little later on, if you will allow me, with the reasons which, enable an alien to pay. The obvious question is, if an alien can pay so much for a house, why not a British workman? I will deal with that in a moment or two. 1605. Should you say that unquestionably there has been an immense and constant displacement of the native or English population in the East End of London ? —I venture to say, Sir, that if the members of the Com- mission would walk or ride down some of the streets and look at the names of the shops they would not have to ask many questions of that sort. 1606. That there has been a great displacement of the English population is, of course, unquestionable We know that even from the Census ?—Yes. 1607. But should you say that the conditions of over- crowding and so on of the people who have replaced the native population is better or worse than the condi- tion of the people that have been replaced ?—In a sani- tary manner, do you mean ? 1608. I mean in all matters, sanitary and over- crowding, and so on ?—Certainly, I do think so>. 1609. Do you think the conditons are worse ?—I think the conditions are certainly worse in the case of aliens. 1610. So your view would be that we are replacing the population at the East End by people who are living under worse conditions than the people who lived there before?—Certainly, and there is also- another point that the emigrants who leave England are mostly the flower of the English youth and manhood ; the emi- grants that come into this country from Poland are any- thing but that, in my opinion. 1611. Can you give us, with regard to the schemes that the County Council have established, any instances of these recent schemes during the last few years ?—Yes, one of the big schemes of the Council was the great scheme of Boundary Street, where 5,700 people were displaced. 1612. (Chairman.) Is that Stepney?—That is in Shoreditch. I am not dealing with Stepney, only be- cause my work on the Housing Committee, my Lord, is over all London. (Chairman.) That is quite right. 1613. (Mr, Vallance.) Is it Shoreditch or Bethnal Green?—It is on the confine®. In 1898 5,719 were dis- placed by the pulling down of the houses for this vast improvement, and I am sorry to say that only eleven out of these were actually rehoused of those who had been displaced from the buildings that were pulled down. However, this clearance scheme was an enormously costly one, something like £54 per head of those re- housed came on the rates—we do not call it on the rates on the County Council—there is a little bit of manipu- lation done. I will explain the system, and leave it to you to criticise it. That is what is done. There is a site taken of such value that the Housing Committee cannot build on it without making a loss, so they go to the Improvements Committee, and say, "now this building, of course, will be an improvement, therefore you must knock £60,000 off it to your improvements, and when you have knocked £60,000 off the price to your improvements, that leaves so little for the land, that we can build so as to cover the expenses." 1614. (Chairman.) What is. got in return for the 6144 £60,000 struck off for improvements?—The improve- Mr. A. T. ment of London. That is the way it is done, so that Williams. there shall be no charge on the rates. I am afraid I -—- am letting you a little into trade secrets, but I want to ° May 19Uz. make this plain. That is the way it is done. 1615. It comes into the general scheme. It does come on the rates?—You have got to pay for it. 1616. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It makes this difference, that the scheme becomes a remunerative one. (Lord Rothschild.) £60,000 goes into capital account?—Lord Welby sanctions it. My point I am making was this. This was an immensely costly scheme, and there were £54 per head written off in this way before it could be made to pay its way at the current rents for the new buildings. Now to-day that great place which was taken by this Boundary Street is gradually slowly, but none the less surely being absorbed by the Jews. 1617. (Major Evans-Gordon.) By foreign Jews ?—Yes, by foreign Jews and English Jews, too ; but here in- stead of the people being rehoused who were on the spot, there is a different population coming in in their place. I have got two returns which are very interest- ing, showing the slow creeping process. In January, 1901, 19*25 per cent, of the tenants were Jews. I am not able to say whether these were all foreign Jews oi what proportion of them, but of recent lettings 24*33 per 'cent, have been Jews, showing a rise of 5 per cent, in those months My point is that here is a scheme which has been raised at enormous expense to rehouse these people whose habitations have been pulled down. Only eleven of them have actually been re- housed, and the area is steadily, if slowly, being assimi- lated by a population of Jews. 1618. (Chairman.) Was it that other people took the place of those who had been displaced and become tenants of the new buildings? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, my Lord.—In those days when this was done the County Council did not provide new accommodation for those persons displaced before they were dishoused. Some of us have thought since then that there should always be accommodation prepared ready, and when you serve notice on these people you should be able to offer them a place here until a new habitation is built, but in those days that was not done at all. 1619. Is it done now?—Yes, to a very great extent. In those days these people would be given notice to- quit, and they would not be offered a fresh place for perhaps a year. By that time they were scattered all over London, and had found new habitations. 1620. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your point now is that.. these great building schemes that are prima facie for the native population are gradually benefiting in part at least alien immigrants from abroad?—Yes, that is my point. 1621. And consequently that these great schemes . form, and continue to form, one of the many attractions which would attract foreigners to this country?—Cer- tainly 1622. With regard to 'Stepney itself with which you . are familiar, what about that ?—Stepney is not gradually or slowly but rapidly becoming swallowed up. Out of' the many that I have noted down in the districts, I have got a pretty striking instance in a street, the Red: Lion Street, Kingsland Road. 1623. That is not Stepney, is it?—No, it is not. There are 50 houses. Take a block of 50 houses. In Red Lion Street five years ago there was not a single foreign Jew living in that street. Eighty per cent of the houses are now owned and occupied by Jews so far as can be ascertained. 1624. Foreigners—is their birthplace known?—With regard to some of them it doubtless is, and all the rents have been enormously raised. 1625. Have you got the extent to which the rents have* been raised ?—I have not got the extent with regard to, this particular street. I have had returns of the raising of the rents in many other cases. 1626. With regard to Stepney, there is a great dis- placement going on at this moment there ?—A very large displacement indeed. I have a great many streets to supply instances. This is a kind of typical case. Here is a man named Cox, had a small general shop, which, did a fair trade. He was making a living. In the East End they do not make fortunes; they thinly they are doing very well if they live comfortably; they do not save anything, or have a banking account into X66 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. A> T. Williams, 8 May I9Q2. which, they put their profits, but they think tliey are doing well if they get a fair trade and living. This man was doing a fair trade until the aliens came in. Now they won't buy off him; he has lost all his trade, and he is compelled to go; His place has changed hands, and directly this man went the landlord raised the rent 2s., and when a new tenant came up to take these rooms at the increased price he demanded £5. 1627. Is that key money ?—I suppose so, but he ulti- mately accepted three pounds. 1628> {Chairman.) We were on displacement, which I treat as getting rid of old houses, and driving out people in that way. You have now come back to an individual instance of the first class Yes. Unfortu- nately, we cannot talk to< you very much about displace- ment in Stepney, because that is absolutely impossible, There is no pulling down and re-building practically. 1629. It is really our population, and a too strong crush coming in ?—Yes. ,1630. {Major Evans-Gordon.) What I mean by dis- placement, the' displacement of a resident population, was that caused' by an incoming population from abroad, and others ?—I can quote you any amount of statistics on that. 1631. {Chairman.) The displacement we have been talking of was that previous displacement, where the County Council had been putting it on the rates ?— Yes. 1632. We have got the word used in two , different .•senses ?—-Yes. 1633. {Major Evans-Gorclon.) That was a question of 'displacement by destruction of house property?—Yes. ;Now we are discussing the displacement of the British .people by aliens. 1634. Where house property has not been destroyed? —Yes. Now I will take a place in Stepney, called . Lydia Street, a very dark, dirty street, very narrow indeed. Now, eight years ago I gather after very careful inquiry that there was not, a single alien in it. Six years ago a few arrived, and to-day, or when my report was taken a few weeks ago, sixteen out of the twenty- four houses are occupied by these people. 1635. That is displacing at an increase of rent?—Yes, I will come to the rents in a moment. All the British have practically gone. They were dock or casual labourers who lived in this street, and since 1899—- and this is a very striking thing—these houses have been sold three times, and the rent each time previous to the sale has been raised a shilling. May I illustrate .tikis just to make it quite clear. A foreign Jew, and, . ;alas, sometimes an Englishman- 1636. You do not confine your statements to foreign Jews?—I am not confining it entirely. 1637. But the majority would be ?—That very great number. These facts, of course, are always most diffi- . .cult to elicit, but I make a great point of the case of Lydia Street. What happened was this : A man comes along, and finds that these houses are showing a certain profit on the capital. He buys them at a price to show that profit. He then goes round, and puts up the rents a. shilling each. This increased rent shows a much larger rate of interest on his capital. He there- fore sells those houses for a larger sum. The next man, ~ who holds them a month or two, puts a shilling on again, and again he sells them at an increased value. This is the case of this street. The houses have been sold three times since 1899, always to Jews, and the rent each time "has been raised a shilling. 1638. {Chairman.) As a rule you say in the majority - of cases it is the alien who buys ?i—Yes. 1639. He is true to his nationality; he puts the in- •creased rent upon the alien tenant, who pays7—Cer- tainly. 1640- Not upon the British tenant?—No ; if the .British tenant does not want to pay it he goes. 1641. But I understand you that the fact is he has •gone in 16 cases out of 24?—Yes, and there is another great reason why the British tenant goes, which I should like to deal with later on, and that is that where you get a man and his wife and a child living in two rooms on t% ground floor, when an alien Jew is on the next floor, th%, won't assimilate, they will not be neighbours, and tlie jposition. becomes so intolerable considering the h^ftsiarid!customs,,and the ways of the aliens—that the British go. 1642. The increased payment for the most part comes from the alien %—No, I do not say that, because when a man has lived in the place 15 years, he wants something to stir him out. If he can afford possibly by stinting himself to pay another one shilling or two shilEngs on his rent, he does. 1643. You must take these facts as you have stated them. You say in Lydia Street the British tenant has gone, and the alien has come ?■—Yes. 1644. Since he has come, the rent has been raised ?— Yes. 1645. Then the alieji has paid it?—Yes. 1646. You said no, but it is the fact ?—That is only 16 out of 24. Of course eight are British people, who will pay the increased rent. 1647. But upon your note you said that substantially the British tenant had gone. Therefore the burden has really been thrown on the alien immigrant?—Yes. 1648. And he is able to pay it?—Yes. 1649. You are raising a broad economic question?— Yes, why he is able to pay it is because he lives in condi- tions of overcrowding, which the British man does not live ins; he lives many in a room, and he lives, as I say, in a way that the British will not live in, and cannot live in. 1650. Has it come within your department, as a member of the London County Council, to see to the carrying out of the present law as to overcrowding?— No, my Lord, it comes under the Borough Councils. The Borough Councils have sanitary authorities who deal with it. 1651. Before the Borough Council was established^, three or four years ago, did it come within the London County Council or the Vestry?—The Vestry. It is a very easily said thing that " these matters of sanitation and overcrowding can easily be dealt with by the sani- tary officers. There is nothing that the sanitary officers cannot deal with." That is a very specious argument. If you look into the law that has to be put into operation by the sanitary inspectors, you will find that the routine of the law takes something like five or six weeks. 1652. Besides that there is .noplace for these displaced people to go to, and the sanitary authority cannot find it ?—Exactly. The routine is this. If I find a House is insanitary, filthy, disgusting, and injurious to human life,I report that to the sanitary officer. Some fuss is made by the Borough Council, and the Borough Council determine to get a closing order, and they go up to the magistrate to get a closing order, and they say here is a house or two houses, where there are 40 people living, and they are in an insanitary condition; we want to pull those houses down. Will you kindly give us a closing order or an order for demolition. "Yes," the magistrate may say at first, " but 40 people there ; where are you going to put them ; have you any fresh place ? " " No we have not in Stepney." Then he says, " v^h, no, I shall not give it. Half a loaf is better than no bread." And the magistrate is doubtless right, because half a loaf is better than no bread. 1653. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I should like to go back and establish clearly what you mean to say on this point. Your point is that there has been a great displacement, and that a great displacement is going on of the native population in Stjepney ?—Yes. 1654. That they are replaced by foreigners, aliens for the most part ?!—Yes. 1655. That the rents are invariably raised, and that consequently in some cases the tenants are given the option to stay on at the increased rent, or are told that they had better go?—Yes. It may interest the Com- mission to know that in Lydia Street there was a little while ago a bill up in the window : " This house to let; no key money." 1656. One more point before I leave this. The rents have been enormously increased. What enables the in- coming population to pay the enhanced rent is that a great many more of them go into the house than it was previously occupied by ?—Yes. 1657. And, therefore, the increased rent is spread over a larger number Yes. Where a family has had a house, a family or a collection of individuals now occupies a room. 1658. So in a four-roomed tenement you get four families, where formerly you had one ?—Yes, and occa-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 67 sionally two families in the passage. The passage is let as a living room to two families. Then I should like to deal with Cadiz Street, Stepney. It is in the East Central Ward. Four years ago in this street I cannot trace that there was a single alien. They were all English landlords and English tenants. To-day nearly 70 per cent, of the English have gone, both landlords and tenants. The property has changed hands, and the tenants have gone. The rents have risen in this street in these four years from 9s. 6d. to 16s. 1659. (Chairman.) All these alien immigrants seem to get rich very soon, because they only came a few years ago. I should almost wish to become an alien im- migrant, because in a few years they all seem to possess property—;£40,000 or £50,000 ?—That is an exceptional instance. 1660. But int these two streets they do become owners of property ?■—Directly the aliens get a footing in this country, and they see a chance of getting anything for themselves, without doubt they have their friends over, and there is no doubt that in that way they make some- thing even out of the labour of their friends when they arrive. 1661. Are the friends paupers ?—The friends are paupers, and I think are very often taken on to1 work. 1662. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I should like to elucidate that point about the house property. I have under- stood-—peiihaps you cian give us some information oil the point—that there has been a great deal of speculation in house property in the East End %—'I know nothing about how these men get property, fouit I know what is freely said in the East End that the Jewish authorities advance money to some of these people to help them to buy it, and Lord Rothschild's niame is freely mentioned as being one of those who find the money. 1663. {Lord Rothschild.) I can deny that?—Then you get the credit for what you do not deserve, my Lord. 1664. {Major Evans-Gordon.) House property is largely speculative, and -has fallen largely into the hands of foreign landlords Quite so. 1665. They form syndicates, in) fact?—Yes ; I have got instances of that later on. May I run through one or two others: Lomas Buildings in St epney—that is a very bad court. 1666. {Lord Mothschild.) Whereabouts is that ?—It is a court off- Ben Jonson Road, Stepney. 1667. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Is that south of Mile End Road ?—Right down the Commercial Road end. I should look upon Lomas Buildings as the worst place in Stepney. There are ten hooises on one side, of two rooms each. They are simply hovels, and the rent was 5s. 6d., now 7s. 1668. (Chairman.) For the house or room?—For the two rooms. 1669. (Major Evans-Gordon.) 7s. for two rooms?—Yes, these tare parts where it is impossible to rehouse, because of the expense. In this neighbourhood there is actually a vacant space of land with no buildings on it, with all this congestion' of people wanting rooms-, a piece of land lying deeolutely vacant belonging to the County Council. The reason why that bit of land can- not be built on is because it is impossible to make a paying scheme without acquiring some of the adjoining property; negotiations, were entered into some time ago to acquire the adjoining property, and the lowest price asked was at the rate of £16,000 per acre, which figure, of course, made the purchase absolutely impossible. We could not persiuiade the Improvement Committee to write off the 'scheme anything of tbait sort. So there is that vacant land to-day that anybody can see absolut ely unbuilt upon. : 1670. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Are these Lomas Build- ings occupied by aliens at all now P—No, they are owned, I understand, by a Jew, but whether he is an alien Jew or an English Jew, I do not know. Another reason why there is much a difficulty here is that the children of the aldenis (have to be educated, iand 'the percentage in some of the Board-schools is enormous. You will gelt officers bfore the Commission who will deal with this, but I will say that houses have to be demolished every now and then to provide more Board School accommoda- tion, and that this fact increases a little the difficulty of the housing problem, seeing that accommodation has to be found for tho children of these aliens. 6144. 1671. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Is house demolition Mr. A. going on from various causes ; .first of all School Boards ? , Williamf. 1672. Factories?—Yes. 8 May 1B02. 1673. And railways, I think, we may say chiefly ?— Yes. 1674. Sometimes hospitals?—Yes. 1675. That would emphasise the difficulty in provid- ing for these aliens who come in ?—Oertannly. 1676. Theref ore the alien influx where this demolition is going on is more seriously felt than if the demolition was not going on ?—Yes ; and, of course:, aill 'these things that we have mentioned are an immense attraction to the alien. Do you- imagine the alien does not hear of all these things from his friends over here? 1677. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) All what things?—All about the schools—the beautiful schools provided for them—iand that no man in England need starve. I am assured ithaib our workhouse diet is just ais good as many a small Polish farmer gets when he is at home. England is looked upon as the land of plenty; and they say: " Look at the beautiful free hospitals there, where they look after you when you are sick." They are accustomed to nothing of that sort. 1678. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These would all be at- tractions ?—Yes, and there are the charitable funds, too. What does the president of the Belgian Philanthropic Society say? I do not know whether he has been called before the Commission, but he says the great attraction to Belgians who come to this country is that it is freely said : " It is all right; if you get over there and do not do, the Society will send, you back." He siays it is freely iand constantly said in the most naive way to him, "We could do no good, we were told you would send us back again free, and all these things-, must be correct." The Belgian Government is not, anxious that their paupers shootid coune here, but I must say I think the Russian Government is most anxious that they should come, they encourage them, • buJt the Belgian Government discourage them. I think there can be no douibt that the Russian Government does encourage them. I understand that this is a fact: that by a recent regulation of the Rusfsian Government the refusal to permit emigration from Russia until after the completion of military service has been modified in the case of those who can obtain a medical certifi- - cate saying that they are unfit, and these certificates are granted with greater laxity to Jews than they are - to foreigners. Now that is proved by the fact that the percentage of rejected Jewish army recruits, in Russia , in 1899 was nearly 14 times as much as native Russians. 1679. (Chairman.) Proportionately?—Yes, on medical certificates. 1680. Where did you get that from ?—'That informa- tion was printed some time ago in one of the London papers, and I sent down to see if it eould be verified, and I believe you can have evidence on that poiint if you like. May I add one word on this, and that, is that the medical certificates on which these people were exempted from service in tho army included leprosy, and other terrible diseases. Where do those people go ? 1681. Do you know of any lepers who come Here?—I . say it includes leprosy and other terrible diseases. I believe there are very many terrible diseases, such as insanity. 1682. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) Have you any evidence of; it?—I do not know of any evidence of leprosy, but I am not sufficiently in touch with these aliens to kno w that they have leprosy. It is impossible for any ordi- mary person to oorne in toa,3h with tftiemi. 1683. (Chairman.) It does not come within your scope ?—No. 1684. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The points you want to - make chiefly 'are with regard to overcrowding, the dis- placement of the population, the increased rentals, and' the attraction which all these building schemes and1 other matters afford to these people coming over here % —Yes. 1685. With regard to their interference with trade, and their taking employment in trades, it is principally alleged that they do nothing but tailoring and bootmak- ing, and cabinet-making, and so forth. Have you other instances of greater interference ?—I should have liked to have given a great many more instances with rpgard to displacement and increased rents. I have> 1368 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. A. T. Williams. ^ May 1902. had a very great amount of evidence supplied to me by men who are most anxious to come up and testify to these things if you would allow me to run through it. 1686. (Chairman.) In< what sense are you using the word " displacement" ?—I have entirely limited it to the displacement of British by aliens in Stepney. 1687. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where house property is not disturbed. 1688. (Chairman.) There is not the slightest objection to your going on with the evidence, but we have these facts already—that a vast number of aliens do go into Stepney from year to year, and they do live in houses in Stepney ; therefore, necessarily, they must go into houses which have been all full before, and must have displaced previous occupants ?—Yes. Are you agreed that they do that, and that, in addition, the result of them being there is increased rents, because on these points we have got evidence. 1689. We cannot state any opinion we have arrived at, and it will be as well for you to state your facts'?— Will you allow me to run through them ? This is the most pathetic case of increased rent. There is a man who was a blind man, not born blind, but who had gone blind, and he was unable to earn a living, because he was not taught the various things the blind are taught now. His wife supports him and the children by mangling. They have four rooms and a kitchen ; they have been there 19 years, and they had always paid a Gentile lis. rent. Some time ago the house was bought by a Jew, and the rent raised to 15s. 1690. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) Where is this?—This is in a street, and I will furnish the name and address of this man if you will allow me. This house was bought, and the rent raised from lis. to 15s. There are abso- lutely. no repairs done, and when some time ago the water came through the roof the man had to repair it himself. Before that the woman was only just manag- ing to scrape along, and how she manages with an in- creased rent of 15s. I do not know; but she has sub- ?let one room for 3s. 9d., which, of course, will balance -the increase really, but it is a very very hard case in- „, deed. Stepney is the only single district in London - which is more overcrowded than it was ten years ago; - all the other districts in London which are under the - survey of the London County Council have improved, that is to say, show less people per room than there -«were ten years ago. 1691. (Chairman.) How 'has that been effected?—By =, fdearing schemes and housing schemes, and by taking jpeople into the country, and by the enormous buildings ton the outskirts of London, where those who need not live at their work have gone, but Stepney alone is the one district which statistics prove is overcrowded. 1692. Has that been worse in the two years ?—Yes; the figures show that 10,496 more persons are living , under overcrowded conditions in Stepney than was the , C£se ten years ago. 1693. Are these 10,496 in the same number of Houses ? . —In excess. 1694. I know there is that greater population, but ^ what .about the number of houses ?—In exactly the same number of houses. The way we reckon the overcrowd- ing in the London County Council statistics is this. We reckon that where buildings, no matter how many rooms, are occupied by not more than two persons per room that is normal; over two persons per room we call , overcrowding. If you have three persons per room we , should consider there was one person overcrowding it <—that it was overcrowded by one. -Children under ten count one half. 1695. You say 10,496 more population in Stepney? —No, not more population, but more population living . under overcrowded conditions. 1696. That is it does not affect the general popula- tion?—No, certainly not. We are drawing up a table of statistics about various districts of London, and we drew up our table of persons who are living more than two in a room on a certain date. In every district in London there are less people living more than two in a room than there were two years ago, except in Stepney, and in Stepney there is this number of 10,496 living more than two in a room. Do I make it clear ? 1697. Yes, 10,496 more persons living beyond the overcrowding line ?—Yes, and that is the only district in London. 1698. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then, will you go on with your analysis of streets?—I do hope that this Commission will consult, if they have any doubt upon this point, the Parliamentary Registers. They show the number of lodgers paying 4s. a week, and you see how few are entitled to vote, and that shows you that you have got in Stepney on the Parliamentary Register 4,000 to 5,000 out of a population of 70,000. I have not got the exact figures, but they can soon be ascertained, and it is a very important point. The names on the rate books will conclusively prove the displacement of the English, because you will see constantly names like Jabowski and Nepuski—these eort of names you will see on every board. 1699. Has the mumber of voters fallen off since the immigrants are supposed to have come in?—No, it has increased. 1700. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Of the lodger votes?—I should think so. I have not compared them because I thought this was not a subject for me to enter into, but you will have the officers here. I merely throw that out. 1701. {Chairman.) If they are alien immigrants they are not naturalised, and could not be naturalised in so short a time, and they would not get votes ?—No. 1702. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Very few are natura- lised ?—I have the naturalisation returns. 1703. {Chairman.) That is rather against your point? —No. I say there are 70,000 people inhabiting that district, and only 5,000 are entitled to vote. 1704. You were speaking of the lodger vote?—I was doing that because I was talking of the Parliamentary Register and the County Council; it is a different electorate. 1705. I will not press you on that point, because you say you have not thought much about it ?—No, you will get responsible men up here with their books, and I merely throw that out; that if you look at the popula- tion of Stepney, and then see how few are allowed to vote, you will see that ther© is a very large alien popu- lation there who have not the franchise. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is recent. 1706. (Mr. Vallcmce.) You are referring to the occu- pation list ?—Yes. (Chairman.) The occupation vote would be a much fairer test. It is really the leasehold occupier. (Mr. Vallance.) Yes. (Witness). Of course, the School Board authorities have all the information with regard to the growth of the number of children. With regard to the point about property being taken by foreigners, I may say since 1885 this district which I am speaking of (Stepney) has entirely changed. The English have gradually gone, because they cannot pay the rents, and, as I said before, because they cannot live in association with the aliens. The death of old owners and the selling up of their property, the falling in of leases on some of the larger estates such as the Mercers and the Winterton estates, and the Hawkin's estates, have brought about changes. People were anxious to get rid of further responsibility, and Jewish speculators have bought up these properties. The Antcliff executors sold off the 30 years remainder of the lease they held on the Brome- head estate. That is a block of property including one side of Bromehead Street, Antcliffe Street, Newbold Street, and Bromehead Street. These are all in my division that I am speaking of, Foreigners bought most of these lots. The rents have all been vastly in- creased. 1707. (Chairman.) Do you use the word " foreigners " advisedly ?—Aliens. 1708. How do you know they were aliens as com- pared with Jewish residents?—I have endeavoured always to draw a great distinction between them. 1709. Have you in this case?1—In this case where I have said foreigners or aliens I have always referred to foreigners and aliens. 1710. Take this last case as a test?—Yes. Ini that case foreign aliens bought most of the lots. 1711. Will you give the name of the last, the one you spoke of who was the alien?—I am not able to give that now, but I can easily give the Commission that evidence. 1712. If it is important at all, the importance is whenMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 69 the evidence refers to the alien immigrant who has come in under the conditions we are dealing with^ not to the Jewish citizen who may have been here for years P—Yes, quite so; but in all these cases, as I say, the houses .are mostly bought by aliens, and I can furnish the names of them, and the dates on which those various properties were bought. 1713. That will not quite do unless you carry your investigation a little further. Did they come in as alien immigrants or as Russian or Polish Jews, or have they foeen resident here for a long time ?—How can I tell 1 If a man buys a property you cannot tell whether he 'came over as an alien 20 years ago or when. 1714. That is what I thought—that you cannot do it. We are enquiring into alien immigrants, and we know what that means. We are not inquiring into the con- dition of ordinary citizens who may have been born in this country. If you can make that distinction (I thought it was very unlikely that you could), you will try to do so ; but we must find out if we can what is the position of affairs you are dealing with ?—I will endeavour to ascertain that information. I might •manage to rake it up regarding one man if you think it vrould give any satisfaction, and to find out if he came over 20 years ago as an immigrant. 1715. It is not a question of satisfaction, but a ques- tion of fact ?—If you think it important. 1716. The difficulty of accepting your view is to see how these alien immigrants jump into this wealth so as to enable them to purchase property ? I do not think they jump into it—they make it bv means of years of absolute persistent saving. That man that I was speak- ing about who had got £40,000 or £50,000 told a friend of mine in his trade that he never spent more than £1 a week on his personal expenses. He is the man who •saved a halfpenny a week out of 5s. a week. Anybody will amass money if they could do that sort of thing long •enough. 1717. I do not see how we are going to put an, end to it or encourage it. I do not know what the aspect it presents is ?—My point is they are competing on terms which are impossible to th© ordinary Englishman. 1718. Terms which he does not impose on himself ?— He could not exist on 5s. a week and save. 1719. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you dealing with pro- perties where the people who live on the place are Jews, or simply where they sell it to a Jew owner?—Both. 1720. The first is what we really want. It does not matter to us whom the property belongs to. The ques- tion is what is the condition of the people living on the property. 1721. (Chairman.) What you say is that the alien im- migrant is the person who raises these rents from his nature and disposition, and that he acts in this capacity of raising the rent which the other person has to pay ?— Yes. 1722. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) If he comes in as an alien immigrant ?—Yes. One very great feeling of bitterness in the East End arises from this, that where these pro- perties are bought by foreign Jews, notice is not given generally in a friendly or courteous way. It is no un- common thing to find a man in the bitterest indignation and with almost murder in his heart, when some Jew having bought the property has marched down to in- spect it without knocking at the door, saying, " May I look over the property?" or anything like that; but lias marched in and looked all round, and then very likely said, u You will have to clear out: directly your time is up you can go." 1723. They are weekly tenants mostly %—Yes. I have aiever come across I think more bitter feeling with re- gard to this, alien question than on the part of people who have been treated in this way. You can easily foave a gfeat deal of evidence from men who would come and would speak to cases of that kind, and the overbear- ing and insulting method adopted in giving them notice. IVhen an English landlord gives a short notice to a tenant who has been in his house some time, it is customary to help him out a little in the moving, or -give him time to look about for another place, but that never appears to be done. May I say one word as to the want of assimilation. I said that why the British often liad to go was because they would not assimilate with the foreign Jews. Their Habits are so different to ours. .1/24. Is not " association-" rather a better word, bei- 8 May 1902. cause we used the word " assimilation" before with Mr. A. 1. regard to marriage?—Yes, association. The aliens will not conform to our ideas, and, above all, they have no sort of neighbourly feeling. English Jews will associate far more, and Germans will, but these Russian Poles do not appear to be able to budge an inch. A foreign Jew will take a house, and he moves in on a Sunday morning, which rather, of course, upsets all the British people there. Then his habits are different. You will see the houses with sand put down in the passages instead of oilcloth or carpet. These are little things, but they all serve to make a difference. He will use his yard for some- thing. He will store rags there, perhaps—mountains of smelling rags, until the neighbours all round get into a most terrible state over it, or perhaps he will start a little factory in the yard, and carry on a hammering noise all night, and then he will throw out a lot of waste stuff, offal, or anything like that—it is all pitched out, and in the evening the women and girls sit out on the pavement and make a joyful noise, I have no doubt, and on the Sunday the place is very different to what the English are accustomed to. Most extraordinary sights are seen. In one place last summer there was a kind of leads to a house with other houses backing on to it, and two alien families put out their beds on the leads and two married couples slept out on the leads, much to the amusement of all the surrounding neighbourhood. These are little things, but they serve to show that their habits are not such as will enable them to associate. 1725. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your point is that the alien people come in, and some in one way and some in another, with entirely different habits and different ways, tend to squeeze the native population out?—Yes, and make them go. I am amazed to see that there should be any doubt as to whether these aliens in the East End live under filthy conditions. Mr. Stuart Samuel I know has announced that they are cleanly, and that they live in a more cleanly way than the people whom they have displaced. 1726. (Chairman.) Who is Mr. Samuel ?—The member of-Parliament for Whitechapel. You will understand it is extremely difficult for me to get informa- tion as to the condition of the houses where theses aliens are herded, because it is difficult enough for the sanitary inspectors to get information, much less for me, but I have been able to get some in- formation as to some of these houses here, and I will give you the result of the investigations that I have made of actual houses. They are not in that state to-day, be- cause they were so bad that they were reported to the sanitary inspectors, and they have been dealt with, but these are the accounts of two of the houses. 1727. How do these come to you ?—I sent two men. ' down to take exact reports of the condition of the rooms and everything. They went down there under the excuse of looking for work, and they got all the information, and they are prepared to come up and tell you all what they saw, and swear to their statements, if necessary. 1728. I do not think we ought to be very technical, but the eye-witness would be the better witness. Would the sanitary inspector have seen the room that you are going to refer to ?—He may have seen it. 1729. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They were dealt with afterwards by the sanitary inspector?—Yes, they were dealt with in that way. He will give you an idea of the state that some of these rooms are in, and I think the Commissioners with all due deference ought to know it. 1730. I should like to get it on the notes ?—In one small room there were three men, two women, and five children. The passage approaching the room was let as a living room. Each passage in the house was let as a living room. All was most filthy. Filth and excre- ment was all over the landing and in the corners of the rooms. The stench arising was awful. That is the first. Now another case. A front room, very small, was used as a shop and a bedroom; poultry and soused herrings lying about—three men and three women in the room, one woman lying on the bed half-dressed. You see in that case the food which would be hawked about in the day would be in that atmosphere. 1731. (Chairman.) Statistics sihow there are as many as 11 in a room, and we know that from the recog- nised statistics ?—Yes, and you will get numbers of these cases. It is impossible for me to get information of that sort in th# same way as the sanitary inspectors but the difficulty about these cases with the unitary in- spector is that people would say, "What has that to70 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. A. T. do with the alien immigrant—it is the duty of the sani- Williams. tary inspector to prevent that." But it would take him five weeks to deal with either of those cases. The 8 May 1902, routine of the law is such that it would take him five "* weeks before he got an order, and so on, to turn these people out. By that time they would move on their own account and start again. 1732. But i-he evil there would be remedied?—-Yes, but if you report overcrowding to the sanitary inspector he goes to the house, and he says, " You have got two too. many here. You cannot live here, and you must have more rooms." " Oh," they say, " if that is all, we will alter that, and we will send two of the biggest children away." The next day the inspector goes, and the children are gone. They are sent over the way, and they overcrowd that place, and then if by chance one of the handful of inspectors who have to look after the houses of thousands of people drops on them there they are sent back again. 1733. These instances are very terrible, but I am afraid in our agricultural districts you will find some frightful cases of overcrowding P—They are brought to me because I live in the midst of them, and I see the tears of these people and hear the groans of them, and I assure you I started by saying I did not believe in the evil at all, but when I heard the people, and moved about among them, I was absolutely convinced of it. I would draw the attention of the Commission to one or two other cases where Jews are not in. Ived at all. 1734. We must keep to the question of the alien im- migration P—These are all aliens. I was going to tell you about two cases in the Warner Street area where there are more immigrants. 1735. Yes, that is very important ?—There is one area which comes under the committee to which I belong on the London County Council, which is crowded with aliens, and they are living in very insanitary houses, and we wish to condemn these houses and pull them down, and in time rebuild, and as that system that I have been speaking about is now in use, that we like to offer rooms ready before we turn out and evict, it was suggested that we should deal with this area. May I ask that the name of the street should not be reported, because we are negotiating for some of the property ? 1736. Call it Street X ?—We are negotiating for some the property now. The idea was that we should offer these people houses—we could not have put them all in a block, and we had got some buildings which we were just opening, and the idea was that we should get theae people away from that special area. The very greatest opposition was offered then, because it was said these Italians were a most dangerous class, that they &11 carried knives, that they were most quarrelsome, and as long as they were all kept together within this area where we had got them the police knew where they were, and if they fought they fought among themselves, and they were controlled by a kind of ring fence. Repre- sentations were made that it would be most dangerous to remove these people from there and put them in dwellings, and that scheme has absolutely been hung up until the present moment, partly that we may negotiate the property and partly because we are going to endeavour to put them all down in a lump. 1737. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How many would have been affected ?—I am not able to say, but a considerable number—some hundreds. 1738. These axe Italians ?—Yes. Ice-cream men, and men of that sort. 1739. Organ grinders ?—Yes, I should think so. 1740. (Chairman.) It is very interesting from many points of view, but I do not see what this last evidence comes to?—-The undesirable character of these people. I say why ought we to take all this trouble? With ordinary persons we could suffuse them all over London and give up rooms to 100 here and 100 there, but these people have all to be kept in a ring fence. 1741. Owing to their bad character %—Yes. 1742. And to the use of the knife?—Yes. Perhaps 1 might give a little evidence with regard to the way in Which the aliens displace the British. I was going to point to the case of the Beckton Gasworks. This is a very important and large undertaking belonging to the Gas Light and Coke Company, and is near Barking ; they have a very great number of men employed there, but of late years a considerable number of aliens have come. These also are not Jews, I understand—they are Poles, and profess,, so far as I can ascertain, the Catholic religion. The gasworks at Becktqn empioy in one special part of the works about 2,400 men, and about 700 of these are Po'les. You would not ascertain, if you took the names by which they >are entered on the books, that they are Poles at all, because they are mostly put down in English names—Brown, Jones, Smith, and Jameson. 1743. Are they skilled workers ?—No, absolutely un- skilled. I understand that what they are employed in is a kind of large place where the coke comes down and water is thrown on it and it is raked out. They are called " fire rakers." I believe there is a man up here} from the Beckton Gasworks who will be able to explain the process. It is said when these men come in they are asked their names, and the foreman puts them down Smith, or Brown, or Jones. That shows in one case alone how it is absolutely impossible to rely on statistics. If you went down to a place like that and took only the foreign names and the Russian Polish names of the men employed there, you would get no idea whatever of the actual number. These men are employed there, and :so far as I can find out they are employed in preference to Englishmen. 1744. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Can you give any reason for that?—The only reason that I can ascertain is that there is a certain amount of bribery that goes on between the foreman and the Russian, who brings his brother over and gets him engaged. There is a certain amount of money passes which induces the foreman to put this man in. 1745. (Chairman.) Are the wages the same?—Yes, exactly the same. 1746. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The wages and hours?" —Yes, wages and hours. 1747. Is there any ill-feeling in the locality with re- gard to the replacement of the English labour ?—-There is the most tenible ill-feeling against it. These Poles are brought over; they send, for their friends; they bring them over, and they openly flaunt the Englishmen, and say, " You are no good ; we shall have all Beckton soon."" You will have men who will come up and tell you all these things. There are constant fights with fists, and fights with shovels; the Englishmen knock down the? Poles, and the Poles smack them over the head with their shovels, and there is a terrible state of war. The foreigners will not associate with these other men at all, and you will have evidence on this point. There is one other point I might raise about that. In the East End there is a most bitter feeling without doubt arising. This feeling has been augmented. People in the East End feel that a Commission was appointed in 1889, and say that Lord Salisbury and the Queen's Speech, and all the leading statesmen had said something must be done, and that the 'Commission had said that they thought even if now was not the time the time would come. These people in the East End know all this, and they know now that this Commission is appointed, and they are very bitter because they think nothing is going to be done. 1748. (Chairman.) Is that in consequence of the Com- mission being appointed?—Yes; they are very disap- pointed, and think they are fobbed off again as they were in 1889. The aliens are openly defying them in the East End, and they say you will do nothing, and if you will allow me I will read just a few lines from a paper which is published in the East End; it is a letter from a foreigner, from a Jew anyhow, which will show you the feeling which has been roused. It is not neces- sary to read it all. He says : " You will pardon me if I say that we consider ourselves far superior to the English people. If the English Government have this question seriously at heart, as you would have us believe, why don't they pass a restrictive measure? They dare not, and they know it. The moment such a measure was passed English credit would go down. You may rail at us as much as you please, but your Government i& dependent upon people of our race for its finances. You will, I hope, forgive me also if I say that without the- brains and the intellect of our race the English nation would be nowhere. Who are the smartest, the' brightest, and the most intelligent men on all your local boards— your Guardian Boards and Councils—but the people of our race? I would warn the English people against attempting any persecution or repression of our race. We dominate your House of Commons; we dominate your daily and weekly Press; we shall shortly dominate your Local Boards and your Councils; we are strong enough, powerful enough, and influential enourgh to spoil you if need be, as our ancestors spoiled the Egyp- tians. Our full power has never yet been put forth against you, but it will if the necessity arises, and then: God help England and the English people."MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 71 1749. (Chairman.) How is that letter signed?—This is signed by a nom de plume. 1750. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What paper was it in? —In the " East London Observer " of November 9th. 1753. {Chairman.) Does it not occur to yon that if anyone wished to injure the Jew cause such a letter as that might be written?—'Such a letter is written with the idea of influencing the passions of the East End. 1752. I should think it influences the passions of the anti-Semites ?—Yes, exactly, that is what I say, the anti-aliens. It is simply a defiance of the anti-alien. 1753. To rouse their passions ?—Yes. ■ 1754. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Who do you think has written the letter?—It is written by a Jew, of course. (Chairman.) Why do you say that? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Lord James's point is that it is a bogus thing. 1755. (Chairman.) When the writer says: "We dominate you in the House of Commons," do not you think it is very insulting to an anti-alien?—Y'es. The paper in which this:is published has taken up the alien side, It has not taken up the anti-alien side. There are two papers in the East End in the way of papers ; one has taken up one side and one the other. 1756. If that is correct, and they have taken up the anti-alien side I do not see why they publish it ?—It is headed " An Advocate of the Alien." (Chairman.) If the newspaper advocates it I can underso ld the point which is raised. 1757. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You only quoted that to show what goes on ?—Yes. This has been read right through every court and every back street, and it has inflamed the public opinion. Why I have read this is to emphasise the point, and is said. I want to show you what Mr. A. 1. Williams. 1758. (Chairman.) That is not quite the point. Lord Rothschild says he thinks it is written in an anti-alien ° May 1908. paper?—No, it is written in the "East London Observer." This is a reprint of it. (Chairman.) Do you know, Major Evans-Gordon, what view the " East London Observer " takes ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) In favour of the alien. (Witness.) I do not think it is the "East London Observer," but I understood it appeared in the "East London Observer." We can very easily verify that. There ds a great deal more in the letter, but I have only read just the concluding part. It is a defence of the Jewish race all through the previous part of the letter. 1759. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You have only read one part of the letter?—Yes. 1760. That is indicative of the inflammatory feeling ? —Yes, I only read that to show the inflammatory feel- ing, and I think this state of things in the East End is a most terrible one. If the people in the East End find there is nothing done for them, and that their claims are neglected, my experience from moving about with them there leads me to warn the Commission that there will be most disastrous results. 1761. (Chairman.) In what sense?—In the sense of riot and bloodshed and murder. (Chairman.) There are several questions the Commis- sioners wish to put to you, and perhaps it would be con- venient to postpone your further examination (Major Evans-Gordon.) There are two witnesses here with regard to the Beckton Gasworks, if you allow them to be called now? (Chairman.) Yes. Thomas Tuckwood, called : and Examined. 1-762. (Chairman.) What are you employed at?—I am employed by the London County Council at the present time,on the northern outfalls, but for about twelve years' I was employed at the Beckton Gasworks of the London Gas Light and Coke Company. There were a few of these Russians Poles when I worked there at the beginning— just a very few—but about six years ago they came in there ; their relations sent for them, and now there is & terrible lot; and, do you know, my Lord, the Christmas before last—1900—in one retort house, No. 11, there was only one Englishman employed—what they call a fireraker—and all the others were these foreigners. 1763. About' how many ?•—There were nine in that single house—nine foreigners to on© Englishman/ There they will defy you. They will say : " English no good—Russia all good," and hundreds—yea, I would say scores—this last winter said : "We cannot get em- ployed at Beckton Gasworks all through these aliens" 1764. Why do they employ these Russian Poles in- stead; of Englis|unen ?—That comes to the point—that is what we all want to know. 1765. Cannot you. tell us ?—As we believe, it is bribery. 1766. By whom %—The foreman. One of my mates who is here, can prove to you where one foreman was bribed when itwo Russians wanted to go to work in his retort house, and each one gave him half a crown. He said : " That is-; wha?t we get for employing Russians/' and he threw it. on: to the table in the lobby, and he said : " Go/and spend it in booze," and they spent it, and that man would not employ them without he was downright compelled. That is howrit is done with some of them, I can assure you—bribery. , 1767. What is the effect of this on the other workmen, is it good or bad, or what happens ?—They do their work just the same ; but do not you think an English- men, is not to be preferred before a foreigner ? Let me tell, you> my Lord, that there will be trouble and a terrible " do" down there if something is not done; there will indeed. Just fancy, l am a married man with five children, and I have got three boys. What are my offsprings to do if these foreigners keep pouring into the country ? 1768. Do they work better or worse than Englishmen ? —They work no better. I will guarantee to go and do the same work as they do quite as well. 1769. (Mr. Vallance.) At the time when these men were taken on were there Englishmen wafting to be taken on?—They were waiting on the staging in the retort house. Mr T. Tuckwood. 1770. At the time these men were taken on were there -- other equally good workmen for the gas company wait- 8 May 1902, ing outside willing to be taken on?—They are inside--— the works, and there are these retort houses, they stand on what they call the stage, and the stage foremen of:> these different houses want them if there are vacant places, and many prefer to take foreigners on before an Englishman. 1771. If a foreman were taking ten of these foreigners on were there ten good Englishmen ready to be taken' on?—I believe so. i 1772. (Chairman.) What is the name of the foreman? —There are different foremen. This was one named Lucko—the one I have spoken of about the half-crown. 1773. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your statement is that these foreigners are engaged in preference to the Eng- lishmen?—Yes. 1774. And that that causes a great deal of ill-feeling and indignation down there?—Yes, and it will be worse still. 1775. • And the foreigners are increasing ?—Yes. 1776. And they are taking more and more of them in ? —Yes. I do not know whether the Gas Light and Coke Company are acquainted with it. 1777. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How long have you left the Beckton Gasworks?—It is about 14 months since I did anything there. 1778. Were you regularly employed there before ?—I was employed, but I gave my notice in, and preferred to come out of these retort houses, because it was so terribly hot. 1779. Fourteen months ago?-—Yes, about fourteen months ago since I worked for -the Gas Light and Ooke Company. 1780. When do you say this took place about the half- crown and the bribery ?—My mate can tell you about it; he was a witness of it. 1781. How long ago do you say it is?—I cannot say. My mate will tell you himself. 1782. Was it while you were there?—While he was\ there, not me. 1783. After you left?—My mate here can tell you that. 1784. (Chairman. Why did you leave Beckton ?—For my health's sake; because when I was carbonising this gas it was so terribly hot. I came out fof the benefit of my health.72 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ^ .Mr, , D. Sealey. 8 May 1902, David Sealey, called in; and Examined. 1784*. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you employed at the Beckton Gasworks ?—I have keen. 1785. How long ?—About a month after this Christ- mas. 1786. You left in January about?1—Yes. 1787. How long before that had you been employed (there?—I have been there now ever since I was a youngster—about 14 years, 1788. Until January last?—Yes. 1789. Why did you leave ?—I never had a chance to stop. 1790. What do you mean by that?'—Because these foreigners, or Russian Poles as they call themselves, were taken on before me and my mates. 1791. At the beginning of this year?—Every year, every winter. 1792. Had they been employed there long before? During the 14 yeiars when you were first in the wtirks, how many were there?—I do not recollect any of them being there when I first went to the works. 1793. They gradually came in ?—They gradually came in. 1794. How many do you suppose are there now ?—I should say now there are 800 of them in the winter, or, I should say, there is close on a thousand, but in the Bummer they go and get work elsewhere at Silvertown. 1795. In Woolwich ?—-Yes. 1796. Do you work in the Carbonizing Department? —Yes. 1797. How many men were employed altogether?— Over 2,000. 1798. Was it out of that number that there were 800 foreigners?—Yes, quite that. 1799. They have increased rapidly lately ?—Yes, every winter there are fresh ones; you can see them lying about the coke-hole. If any of our fellows came down there to get out of the cold a policeman would coine down with a big cudgel and cuff them out, and if they did not go away they gave him one under the ear and had him out. We have picked up our own people when the police have knocked them about. 1800. Why are these foreigners preferred to English- men ?—I cannot say, but I do know seven years ago a man of the name of Shepherd, it wais rumoured—in fact, the Russians have told us themselves as good ais they can speak for themselves—that this Shepherd was their secretary for the Polish Club at Silvertown, and he used to bring them all down, and they used to come and ask us where Shepherd, the stage foreman, worked —where No. 9 was. We have even had games with them, and sent them from one end of the works to the other to find him. 1301. Where do these men who work in the Gas Works live?—These Poles, do you mean? 1802. Yes?—-The majority of them live in the coke- Iiold. Of .course, they are dirty and filthy. 1803. They sleep there ; they do not have houses ?— No, there are no houses in the factory ; the houses are outside—the cottages where the Englishmen live; but I do not believe myself that the head manager of Beckton or the Managing Director knows but what they are all Englishmen working there, because when they come there the foreman gives them a name. 1804. Give them van English name ?—Yes. 1805. The foreman does ?—Yes. 1806. What does the foreman get out of it?—It is rumoured' about that he is bribed, and that the man 1/ucko, as he called himself four years ago, said two Russians gave him half-a-crown each to find them a job, and he came and said, " This is what I get to find the Russians a joB," and he put it on the table, and he said, " Go and get some .booze " ; and I had a drink out of it too. 1807. (Chairman.) He did not get the money?—Noy. but he would not give it to them back. 1808. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These men paid to get employment. 1809. (Chairman.) But they did not get the best of it ?—Not that time ; he is the man who will not employ them if he can find Englishmen to do the work. He will run all over the factory if he can get an Englishman, but, like a good many others, if he cannot find an Englishman he must have (Someone to do the work before he does it himself. But there are foremen who when they turn round to us say, " Stand back." Then we have to stand back, and we can see the Russian given work before us. They have done it to me, and not only me, but I can bring proof of it. 1810. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is Lucko there now?—1 cannot say. 1811. Was he there when you left?—I do not know; I never went to that part of the factory. I was up at the other end. There have ,been some at the factory shifted; I cannot say whether he has been or not. 1812. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How do these people get on together—the English working men and the Poles and Russians?—I should say when next winter comes there will be some bloodshed, because I was at work one day, and' one stood over me—I was in my skin,, because it was hot—and he even dropped lumps of coal on my head, and cut my head open. When I went up to the top to ask him what he did it for, he said some- thing in his own language, and then he turned round and said in English, " Will you fight' me ?" I said " Yes, I will have a fight," and we had a fight. I got the best of him,, and he turned round and wanted to fight me in Polish. I could not fight in Polish. 1813. (Chairman.) What is fighting in Polish?— Wrestling. I got the best of him, but I was put on a month's notice thalt .winter. The foreman came and gave me a month's notice for defending myself, because I went and spoke about the fellow cutting my head open for nothing at all. I was doing my work. 1814. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The feeling between the foreign workmen and these English workmen is bitter ?—Yes. 1815. Do the British workmen feel very bitter about the foreign workmen being employed there?—Yes, that is the truth. 1816. You cannot explain why they are employed there?—No, I cannot explain that, because it is rumoured that the foremen are bribed. This manr Shepherd', must have been bribed, as I have often told other people, because when we have been on the stage looking for a job he has told the Russians to come down the other side, and started them at work, and then he has come up and said, "Full up to-night, chaps."- There must be something in it. I have never seen a man give anything. (Chairman.) We do not accept Ihe fact that these foremen have been bribed, because it would be very un- fair to them, but if there is any proof to be given of it, it must be given. (Witness.) One fellow last week was going to stab a man with a coke fork, because he would not give him a barrow to work with. The man defended himself, and this Russian fetched a policeman and had him locked up. Two of our Englishmen were supposed to go as witnesses for him, but when the time came they would not go, because they were afraid of losing their job, and he got seven days for that. They put it down that the Russian did not know what he had done.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 73 SIXTH DAY Monday, 12th May, 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford {Chairman). Lord Rothschild . Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m p Henry Norman, Esq. m.p. William Yallance, Esq. 1817. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are in trade?—Yes ; I am a shoe manufacturer. 1818. Whereabouts ?—In Wells Street, Hackney. 1819. How long have you been there?—'About 14 years. 1820. Of what religion are you ?—I am of the Jewish persuasion. 1821. You are a Jew?—Yes. 1822. Were you born in this country?—Yes. 1823. I understand you know something about the effect of this alien immigration upon your trade. Will you tell the Commission what you know ?—'When I first started in business, some 18 years ago, I made a very good thing out of it. The business was so flourishing that the manufacturers at that time would come into one's place, and beg of him to do the trade for them;; and that is in my experience, as I have seen them in these last 18 years not only beg, but I can prove in a, good many instances that they have come to my house —in a small house where I have lived—and sat on the •stairs and begged me hard t,o accept their orders. At that time there was a chance for a man to get a living, but I am sorry to say every year that has gone over my head since that time it is a matter of impossibility to make ends meet. 1824. To what do you attribute this loss of trade? —I attribute it to the amount of small people spring- ing up from time to time that have not any idea of business, and I do not know how they live. I am only a poor man myself, but I have been brought up respect- ably, and I try to live as respectably as I possibly can, and try to bring my children up to do the same ; but I am sorry to say, owing to the way the trade has Ibeen going on and has been cut down, that I do not see what is going to become of my children in the future. 1825. What is the reason you assign for this?—Be- cause there are so many people get into the trade that do not know anything at all about it. 1826. People coming from abroad ?—Yes ; foreign people. They come from -abroad. That is brought to my notice from day to diay. I am doing business -with London warehouses, and I see from day to. day new people springing up, and coming in and supplying the goods for such a ridiculous price that it would be a matter of impossibility for any honest man to do it. 1827. What do you mean by "any honest man"? Do you mean the wages they give are so small?—I put it down to sweating. They are getting the labour down so cheap that it is impossible to compete with them. 1828. Can you give us any idea of the prices now? Take a dozen pair of boots for finishing, and so on. 'Can you give us in your experience what the drop in prices is in those years ?—-In older years, of course, they did pay a good price for their work, because there were not so many people to do the work. 1829. That was some years ago ?—Yes ; but as time Tolls on there are so many of these people springing up and getting into this special trade that the prices they pay are something ridiculous, and in fact, as I say, 6144 Mr. William Silverstone, called; and Examined. the shoe I could stand firm and say that there is no human Mr. W. Silverstone. luioio i* uu M 19Q prices they are paying ,J being could ever exist on the for the wages for this work, and a respectable and honest man that wants to get an honest living and bring his family up could never compete with them. 1830. That you attribute to the inexhaustible supply of cheap labour from abroad?—Certainly. 1831. If a man hais larger wages they can tell him to clear out, because they have always other people to put in his place?—Certainly. 1832. That is your point ?—Yes. 1833. Can you give us any idea in figures, say 10 years ago, when the trade was better, before these numbers of people began to press upon your trade, what the price for finishing a dozen pairs of boots was ?—Before the population got so large, and before there were so many people to do the work, a dozen pairs of shoes for finishing may have been at that time- seven or ten years ago—from 6s. to 7s., and now some of them are getting themi done for 2s. 9d., 3s., and 3s. 3d. 1834. Out of that do they have - to find anything ? —Yes ; they have to find the material for all the dif- ferent processes. 1835. How much does a man earning that 3s. get into his pocket ?—The man that helps him has to get half the money. 1836. I understand that there are two people ?—Yes ; the man that takes the work from the employer takes it home, and he has got his people that do the work. 1837. He has got people undei? him ?—Yes ; he has got people under him that do the work. 1838. A man comes to an employer, and takes away so many dozen pairs of slippers ?—Yes. 1839. He takes them home ?—Yes. 1840. He employs people under him again in his own home ?—Certainly. 1841. He gets what, on an average?—Say 3s. on an average. 1842. 3s. a dozen pairs ?—Yes. 1843. He has to pay his people out of that 3s. a dozen P—Yes. 1844. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What is finishing, exactly? What does it amount to?—There is a lot of work at- tached to finishing. 1845. Tell us what it is ?—Say, for instance, I have got a finisher—I employ a finisher in my firm—one man takes the work home, and he has a certain amount of work to do before he can give it to the other man toi finish off. That is just how it is. 1846. You do not tell us what is the process of finishing. 1847. (Mr. Norman.) What do you do in the boot to finish it?—The man that takes the work out, he does the paring of the heel and the fore part of it. That is all he does. Then the man under him takes the boot, and he has got to what they call buffet, that is, scrape the sole clean, and then sandpaper it, and then ink it, and then iron it. It is very hard work indeed. 1848. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How many pairs can K74 RO VAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. W. individual man get through in a day ?—If a man was Silverstone, working a day from eight or half-past eight in the ^ - morning to seven or half-past eight at night, he might .2 May 1902, possibly get through from 18 to 20 pairs a day, but these - people get through such a lot of work, heedless of the hours they work. 1849. How many hours do they work? Have you Eersonal knowledge of the work that is done in those ouses ?—I have personal knowledge of several that are under my employ. 1850. How many hours do they work?—They may work till ten or twelve o'clock at night. 1851. From eight in the morning ?—Yes—perhaps from six. 1852. From six in the morning until ten or twelve at night?—Yes, in some cases. 1853. In order to do what ? In order to get through the quantity of work to get a living?-—Yes, in order to get a living. That is really what it is. These are facts and honest truth that comes under my notice of people that I employ myself. Although I am only in a small way, I know by the amount of work they get through, and the low wages they are paid for the work, that it h trould be impossible for them to get a decent living unless they put in the hours. 1854. You attribute this impossibility to the fact that these constant arrivals from abroad supply this cheap labour which must find an existence?—Most decidedly I do. ! That has caused the ruin of a lot of business men in this country, I am sorry to say. I would like to put it to you-quite clear as it happens with me. I am serving on£ or two London warehouses, and-have been doing so for these 18 years. Now, that is a long time. A man must do his work, or send his stuff in pretty fair to be able to keep a firm to himself, or to do business with a firm for that length of time, and I can assure you in tliat time I have seen every year any amount of new manufacturers—people that can scarcely speak for themselves. How they live I do not know ; how they manage to price an article up I do not know, and I believe they hardly know themselves; but I have got to" stand by and see that man go to the buyer, or to the governor, and offer him a certain article at a price. Of course, they know very well that the work cannot be done for long, but as long as it is done they take the advantage -of it, and r that is the honest truth of the way business is. carried on in our line. 1855. These people who come from abroad and1 so> on are, ,in fact; hopelessly sweated?—Certainly ; they have not anything else to do. They come over here, as far as I know, and they have not a trade in their hands, and they are glad to get in anywhere. Consequently, tKey go to the nearest place they can get and try, as it is called, to learn a trade. Consequently, the man is pleased to get these people, because he wants to get through a; certain amount of work, and he . cannot aff ord to pay a high wage for it, because he does not get it. Of course, he takes this man and gives him a few shil- lings^ week, and he works there a little time, and when he has been there two or three months, and gets a little money, he starts on his own account. 1856. And sends for some more people from abroad? —Most decidedly ; that is a constant thing. :1857; He sends for others ?—Yes. 1858. So as to work them in the same way?—Yes. 1859. Do you know, anything about the condition under which these people live in their homes ? Where, do they live?—I do not know. , I should not like to say anything thait I do not know. All I cto know is that 1 . have been in one or two of the workshops. The people are all working, and have been working for me, and I cw&kll youi ,truthfully that the .wayj these men work, andiihe t feel.they are hungry, they take a nibble'at a piece: of bread, or drinkim cup of tea :or xoffee out; ofra-cahf anid -go bn further. - - -v. ; m - ^8^0. ^lyhere! do they sleep™in. the workshop ?—Oh, no; i .should not like to say about sleeping in the wo'rkj. shop. Of course,. I do ,not know, ancj t ,\yiiat ;.I. dq< r^ot kiibw- l 'should not say, but as to wh^jt, J do know I am perfectly right and truthful. I am speaking as toposi- ( ti've fa6ts, I can say, $s a straightforward, honest Eng- lisfemafl^ 'th^t I have been working as "hard as any mail I believe in the country, to try and make a comfort-, able living; ' ^bring' my childrM tip respectably, but it is a hard matter to do. 1861.' You say th&t so* long as these people come streaming in this condition of things wiH go on ?—It stands to reason. I myself have been in it from day to day. There is scarcely a week that- goes past but when I go into these warehouses I find a new manufacturer— he can scarcely speak for himself. 1862. Hardly speaking English?—No. He manages somehow to draft out a thing and he produces it and offers it at a price. Of course he accepts the order. He does not feel inclined to work for the governor any more. He thinks he ought to be on his own account, and conse- quently he goes and starts for himself with a few pounds, and he manages to get on a little, and when he finds that he has got a few pounds to spare he goes a little further, so far as to try and get in a bit of credit from some of these small leather people, and consequently, after about 18 months or two years, when he finds he has got ten about £200 or £300, he stops payment and calls the creditors together. They want to know how it is he has failed. He says he could not get a living. Why he does not know. He must have been underselling or under- costing his stuff. 1863. Do you mean that that is a fraudulent bank- ruptcy ?—There are so many of them. I am only saying it is that because I, as a man who has been in business the time I have, and who is trying to pay 20s. in the £, find it difficult to do it, because it is not a matter of to-day or to-morrow, but I can bring your gentlemen, books—the " Leather Trade Journal"—-a pile of 20 or 30—and you will see for yourself what I am telling you is honest truth. Every week, or every other week, another manufacturer has failed, and has brought such audacious and ridiculous excuses that on the face of this earth no man could stand by and get an honest living. 1864. {Lord RothscMld.) I suppose you are aware that there are very large boot manufactories carried on at Leicester and Northampton, and Chesham, besides those* in the East End of London P—Yes, I am aware of that. 1865. You are also aware that there has been a great: strike in the district, because the employers have said! they must introduce the American machinery in order to compete with the large importation of American* goods ?—I am well aware of that—quite aware of that. 1866. I suppose you are also aware that there ha® been also a great increase in the price of town made goods to those who have bought them during the last year or two ?—Yes. 1867. Under these circumstances can you reconcile the statement you have just made?—Most decidedly I can. 1868. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Were you speaking of the slipping trade %—No, of the shoe trade, 1869. How many men do you employ ?—I employ perhaps 18 or 20 indoors. 1870. Do you do any work yourself ?—Oh, yes, I *do- 1871. You do the finishing?—No. 1872. Is it called knifing ?—No, I do not . do the making. / ' 1873. You do the finishing,?—No, I do i^ot do the finishing. I employ that labour. 1874; There are a great number of processes of making; a boot?—Yes. 1875. Are many of these processes done by hand or done by machine?—There is a lot of it now done by machine. 1876. A great deal of subdivision of labour ?—Yes. 1877. The machine does one little part?—Yes? and' th£ labour has to do the other. 1878. About how many processes are there in making a boot ?—There may be about 20. 1879. I suppose they 'have grown very much 'in the 1 apt 18 ye^rs ?—Yes. 1880. The subdivision and the making the different- parts?'—Yes. 1881. One set of men working on one part and on© set on another ?—Yes. ' . _ - 1882. The process.es have been very much increased by'tlie growth Of machinery ?—I't has been increased on account of trying to compete with the foreign labour.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 75 JSfi3u.T A$v &1I :$YjagLt& whe^bhor it is foreign labour or not, that modeofmaking boots has enormously in- creased P—Most decidedly. 1884. And very much, in the Midland Counties, as JLord Rothschild suggested ?—Yes. - < 1885. Especially Leicester and Northampton ?—Yes. ;; ig86>' Js not part bf this that you complain of due to "the manufacture?—No. 1887. All due to the foreign labour?—I am not talk- iaag about the country. I am talking about London. 1888. London is affected by the Midland Counties ?—< r Yesy MOsi of the trade is. What I am complaining of is the smaller manufacturers—the minor manufacturers —who are not in a position to compete with the machinery. 1889. You have to compete with the machine manu- facturers?—Yes, 1890. Is not part of the general competition between "the smaller men and the larger factories where machinery is employed?—Yes. 1891. It is very difficult to say how much of this: loss of which you complain—and no doubt quite rightly— is due to the one cause, and how much is due to the ■other. It is a very difficult question ?—It is a difficult -question, but everybody has not got machinery. 1892. But those who have not got machinery rather •suffer from the competition of those who have?—To -some extent. 1893. (Mr. Vallance.) During the 18 years you have been in business has. the character of the population much changed.—It has increased, but, a,s far as the •change is concerned, I should like to know what you mean. - r > 189#. Is there a much larger population now ?'—Yes. ' 1895. Is there a larger Jewish population, now than lwhen you commenced business ?-—Yes. 1896. What would you say was the proportion ?—I am -not in a position to speak about that. 1897. There is a considerable Jewish population, at .•all events ?—Yes. 1898. What was the character of the population when you commenced business, which has been displaced? : Was it a working class population ?—Yes. 1899; {Major Evans-Gordon.) In Hackney that is?1— Yes, in Hackney. * 1900. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you any Irish popula- tion ?~No. 1901. All English of the working classes?—-Yes. 1902. (Mr. Norman.) How many men do you say you ■employ ?—About 18 indoors. 1903J Can you remember about the rates of wages you paid the man you employed soon after you began < in - business-^about 15 or 17 years ago?—It would re- quire a little consideration, but, as far as I know, the wages came to, I should say, about 4d. in the Is. more. 1904. More than it is now ?—Yes. 1904*. You mean a third more?—They have dropped 4s. in the £. .......1905. Wages have dropped a fifth ?—Yes. 1906. Can you get as many hands as you want at the price you pay to-day ?—No, skilled labour is very hard to get. ^'1907. I think you said there was a constant stream «of inen coming in. I do not quite follow you there. . X> understood you 'to say there was a constant supply of iabour coming in?—Yes, but I do not employ them. It is the people that take the work from me that look .after' them. ? 1908; Can the people who take the work from you , j-^one step further .in the process, and who employ purely tin skilled labour, get as much as they -like ?—Yes, any aanount. 1909. To-day ?—Yes. 1?10. And the prices that they pay have a tendency .^togpo^Jess and -less ?—Yes, of course, they try to get it done as cheap as they possibly can. : ' :-'1911. Who are these men that they get nowadays?— ^They arer« people who come over here, ..an d they have <0144 nothing else to do or no trade in hand, and they are glad to turn in to do anything. , Silyeratone. 1912. In your opinion, why do these people come? ~— Why do they turn up in London ?—Because I suppose ^ May 1002. there is no other place for them to go to. - 1913. Why do they leave the place where they were before in your opinion. It is only a matter of opinion. Why do they leave their homes ?—Just as I said before, I suppose some of them come over here, and when they start doing a bit of work and they find there is a little work here to do, they write for their friends to come over. It is all done in correspondence in my opinion 1914. Are they encouraged to come ? Are there any agencies which bring them—labour supplying agencies? Is there any organisation to bring them?—I do not think so—not that I know of. 1915. You said just now, in answer to a question, that when these people come to London (you used the words) they go to the first place that offers work, or something of that sort?—Yes. 1916. But the people who come do not speak the language ; they do not know anything about the neigh- bourhood ?—No. 1917. How do they find a place %—I suppose they have got somebody who goes down there to bring them up. 1918. That is what I want to hear about. Can you tell us who meets these people and takes them, and distributes them ?—I am not prepared to say, but I * could let you know who it is. I have heard they have got special people down there to meet them coming over and to see who 'they are and whether they want some- thing to do or anything like that. 1919. Who do you suppose the people are that meet them?—I suppose foreigners of their class. 1920. Are they employed by somebody to go and meet them ?—I do not know—I should not like to say. 1921. But they would not do it without some object? —No; they must get something for it certainly. 1922. You would not be prepared , to say what they get, or where they get it from ?—No. 1923. You said by-and-by a man who establishes him- self here gets a little credit ?—Yes. 1924. Where does he get it from?—He gets it from the leather people in the :shoe trade. 1925. Does not he also get it from the Jewish charitable organisations in the East End?—No. 1926. But I see in their accounts that they supply, small sums of money to enable men to establish themselves in business ?—Thait would be very small. No man would be able tO' do> much business with wha/b lii tle credit they give him. We do'not put that down as credit. What we call credit in business is if a man deals with a firm for a little time, and He says he can get plenty of orders providing he can get a little more stuff to go on with, and consequently he gradually persuades this leather man ffco give him credit. That is whait we call credit. Those few pounds they get would not be credit. They would not do much with that. 1927. With regard to the competition of Leicester and Northampton and other boot manufacturing places, do they produce the same class of work that is produced in the East End?—No. 1928. Explain a little more fully ?—The explanation is this: They cater for a different class of work entirely. When a traveller, or when a man in the trade carries a Leicester shoe and a London shoe, or a London article—we do not exactly say shoe, but I say shoe because it is in my interest, and I would like to explain to you as plainly as I possibly can, he carries a brand that speaks* for itself; they know the London shoe as well as they know London, and they know the Leicester shoe as well as they know Leicester. There is no comparison whatever iri the two manufactures. 1929. I understand you to mean by that that there is not a direct competition between the Leicester shoe and the London shoe ?—No ; one is class and the other is not class. 1930. Which is which?—The Leicester shoe is the >hoe, the well-made shoe, beautifully turned out; the class shoe. *...•• 1931. The London shoe is the cheap shoe ?—Yes; because we cannot afford to pay for the labour. 1932. Labour conditions in Leicester or North amp- le 276 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: • Mr. W. ton—I mean such things as strikes and disputes about jSilvemtone. wages and the introduction of machinery—would not - necessarily affect the conditions under which this work 12 May 1902. is done in the East End of London ?—Most certainly ... no't. 1933. Are you a British subject?—Yes. 1934. Where were you born ?—In Birmingham. 1935. Where were your parents born, if I may ask ? —I believe my father was born in Russian Poland and my mother was born in Germany. 1936. Then your family name of origin would b>3 Silverstein ?—'Silverstein. 1937. You feel sure, in your evidence you have given before the Commission, that you speak not only for yourself as an individual, but for your trade generally and your fellow manufacturers ?—Most decidedly I do. 1938. I understand you to say that there is a con- stant supply of fresh labour in your trade at rates just sufficient to keep life in a main's body?—Just sufficient, and that is all. 1939. Would you feel a.ble to express an opinion as to what is the feeling generally in the East End of London among the men you know and associate with as regards this question of unrestricted alien immi- gration ?—As far as I know, they do not seem to like the idea of it themselves, from what little I can gather. Of course, I have not troubled myself much to try and get to know what they think of it; but of course it is natural that this is a free country, and they come here, as it may be, because it is more convenient for them, and they seem to be able to get something sooner to do here than they could in any other country, and they like it to be free. 1940. I am not asking the reasons- but as to the feeling generally among men of your own class ?—As to men of my own class they have got the same opinion as I have. 1941. They are against unrestricted alien immigra- tion ?—Certainly. 1942. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Do you ever employ any of these men yourself?—Unfortunately, sometimes I have had to, but only for a day or two, because I have been so used to getting the parts of my work done in a reason- able and proper manner. When at any time I had a little pressure on, and I liked to get the stuff out a little faster, I perhaps managed to get one or two of these people, and to get one or two lots of work done, but I was so disgusted with them that I was obliged to drop it. 1943. How often have you employed men of this class in the last two or three years ?—In the last two or three » years I have never touched it. 1944. When was it you employed them?—Perhaps six or seven years ago. 1945. Is it at that time you were speaking of that labour was hard to get?—No, labour was not hard to get. 1946. Has it been hard to get ever since?—No, it has not been hard to get. 1947. What did you mean when you said labour was hard to get ? what sense were you speaking in ?—I meant to say that the first man—the man that has got men under him—I meant to say the man that takes the work from the manufacturer—those are the people that you cannot always get. 1948. I do not know what you (mean quite by that. You are the manufacturer?—Yes. 1949. Do you sublet your work ?—No. 1950. But all the work that is done for you as a manufacturer is aone oil your own premises?—No, it is not done on my premises at all. 1951. Where is it done ?—The man takes it home. 1952. Piece work?—Yes. 1953. Who is the person you are speaking of who finds it hard to get labour 1—The man that comes in to me for the work. 1954. He subdivides the work again when he gets it from you?—Yes. 1955. You say that your experience proves that that labour is difficult to get?—Yes. 1956. Is that as difficult to get now as it was difficult to get for the last six or seven years ?—No, you can get any amount of it. 1957. What time were you speaking of when you say it was hard to get ?—seven or eight years ago. 1958. You thinjk that that difficulty is now removed £ —Quite so. 1959. Are you speaking from your own experience? when you speak of the habits and length of time which these men work ?—I am speaking of what I know and what I see 1960. Have you not employed these men yourself within the last seven years ?—No. 1961. Only very occasionally before ?—Yes. 1962. Did the men that you employed then work from 6 in the morning till 12 at night?—They did not do it at that time because there was not work to do. 1963. Where do you get your information that they work that time now?1—Because I go there to see how my work is getting on. I go to the shop. 1964. Is your work now done by these men ?—Yes. 1965. I did not follow that ?—Certainly it is. 1966. You go to the place where they are doing the work ?—Yes. 1967. What sort of places are they ?'—They have got d workshop, 1968. You go and see your work being done there?—- STes. 1969. Is it fro-n that experience that you say the- length of hours is from 6 in the morning till 12 at night?—Yes. Of course, I cannot speak for other people. I speak of what I know and what I see. 1970. Do you often go ?—When I give this man out a certain amount of work, and I want it in a certain time, and I do not get it, I go there and see how he is getting on with it, and ask him what time he will finish, and he says it will take him till 10 or 11 o'clock, or whatever the case may be. That is speaking on facts that I see. 1971. I suppose at Leicester and Northampton and Chesham, you are speaking of large manufactories?— Yes. 1972. Have you been there yourself ?—No, not myself,, but my son travels. 1973. Is there a Jewish population there ?—Yes. 1974. Is there?'—Yes, a small population, but of course, their business ds conducted differently alto- gether. They are large warehouses, and they Have got their regular time. There is no outdoor labour at all in Leicester nor in Northampton. 1975. None of the conditions you are complaining of here exist there ?—No. They are all large warehouses, and they engage them, it is no matter whether it is Jew or Gentile, to come in at a certain time and go out at a certain time, and to get a certain fair wage. That is; how it is they carry on their business so much nicer, and so much more respectably and so different from what we- can do it here. 1976. Do you suffer at all in your business from com- petition of American and foreign boots ?—Not so much' as in underselling. 1977. Do you suffer from, American competition ?— It would not affect my line of business much. 1978. Is there not a very cheap American boot coming into this country ?L-Yes. It depends upon what a man- makes. It does not affect me direct, because I do not make that class of work. 1979. Are you aware it affects the trade?—Yes, quite- so. 1980. In addition to these places which you have- mentioned— Leicester, Northampton, and Chesham— there are American boots coming into the market in con- siderable numbers?—Yes. 1981. That has been a source of suffering to you, and of competition to you?'—Yes, that has been one of the- troubles—there is no getting away from that certainly.. 1982. Is that one of the reasons which has forced the- cheap labour?—No, the cheap labour has been in ex- istence for these last 12 or 14 years. 1983. Your view is that the competition of cheap American boots has had no effect upon that at all ? The American stuff has only recently come in to affect us at all. 1984. Now one question on what my honourable friend has asked you. You 7-Tere speaking of the creditlINUTES of evidence. 77 which enables these men to establish themselves in business ?—Yes. 1985. I want quite distinctly to gather where you think that credit is derived from?—In my opinion it is derived in this way. A man starts with a few pounds. He deals with a leather man and he pays him as best he can every week, or every month, according to arrange- ment. He finds that he is getting very successful in getting large orders from the warehouses he is serving,- and consequently he comes to this leather man and shows him the order. Now those are facts which no one in the world can get away from. He takes an order out of his pocket and says, " Look here, I should do a larger trade if I got a larger credit. Here is on order for so- and-so, it comes to so much, money, but with the limited amount of credit I am getting from you I could not attempt to make this work." Consequently, he induce® this leather man to give him better credit. 1986. Then the credit that come in to him comes, not from Jewish philanthropists, but from the manu- facturers of the raw material, who think they will get larger orders from him if they extend to him the credit ? —Certainly, from no other source whatever. 1987. That seems to me to be a very ordinary opera- tion. Is it that species of credit that you say results in loss to creditors or not?—Yes, in loss to creditors and the manufacturers that try to pay their way. 1988. Do you mean that the men who have obtained this credit make use of it fraudulently; is that what you mean?—That is just how the thing is done. 1989. That is what you mean ?!—Yes. He gets men to give him a certain amount of credit, and then he pegs away at that as fast as ever he can; and the only people who do gain anything from it are the warehouses that buy the stuff. They know that they are buying the stuff at a less price than they could get it anywhere else; and, when the man finds that he is cornered and cannot do it any more, he thinks, " I don't see why I should be the loser of all this," and he makes somebody else lose. 1990. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He goes burst?1—Yes; it is an every day occurrence; it is not only once a week, but it is every day. 1991. Will you send me those leather journals?— Yes; I will send you about half a dozen that have re- cently occurred. 1992. (Chairman.) It may assist the Committee to turn to Mr. Macleoa's evidence in relation to what the witness has said—it is at Question 539—as to the num- bers employed in this trade. He says: "The total number employed in the boot and shoe trade in the metropolitan area was 3,712 males and 140 females. Of those, 2,158 males (striking out the females, because they are very small) come from Russia; 732 males come from Russian Poland; that would make 2,913 out of 3,712; and 202 come from Germany. So, of course, the bulk of these foreigners who come into the metropolitan area seem to come very greatly from Russia and Russian Poland?—(Major Evans-Gordon.) From my own know- ledge those figures are very much below the real num- bers of "those who are employed in this business. 1993. (Chairman.) Whatever the number is, the great proportion of them come from Russia and Russian Poland. As regards the shoe trade generally, are you aware whether the prices have fallen of late years. I am now referring to all the manufacturers, including Leicester and Northampton?—Yes; there has. been a fall. 1994. And jS a good deal more machinery used than used to be the case?—Yes. ^ 1995. And a good deal more skill, and they work rather quicker than they used to do?—They have to turn out a certain number of pairs from the machine. 1996. Our main places of production are Leicester and Northampton, and that neighbourhood in the county of Northamptonshire, and Chesham ?—Yes. 1997. They do, of course, the better trade?1—Yes. 1998. They turn out shoes cheaper than they used to do—you know that as a fact ?—Yes. 1999. Has not the cheapness of the higher class of goods to a certain extent driven out the lower class of goods ?—It may have done, but that has not had much effect on it. ,2000. I am perfectly aware of the distinction between the two classes of goods, but if a person formerly had to pay—take an arbitrary figure of say 8s. for a pair of boots from Leicester or Northampton, which now they Silver stone. can get for 7s.—of course they would spend the 7s. in -- buying the good boot instead of spending it on the in- 12 May 1902. ferior boot ?—That is, of course, a matter that I cannot say ; they do not do that; they seem to me more open to buv the cheaper stuff than the better in a great many instances. 2001. I quite agree that the cheaper you can get a thing the better. As a manufacturer, do you sell it to the retail shop-keeper ?—Yes, I sell it to the retail shop- keeper and to the wholesale warehouses. 2002. They put these things in their window at a certain price ?—Yes. 2003. As a producer you wish to keep the price up ?— Certainly; I do not like to be kept out of a place I have been serving all this time; in fact, it is my living. 2004. Do you wear boots and shoes?—Yes. 2005. What would you say if you had to buy them— would you like to buy 'them cheaply or dearly r—A dear boot is the cheaper boot in the end. 2006. That depends on) the relative ^rices of the article; but take it that the article is the same, I sup- pose there is some advantage in obtaining the thing cheaply, for the consumer ?—That would not make much difference to the retailer. The party who buys the stuff is different from the one that sells it again. 2007. Do you suggest that what has occurred of late year® has made the price in the retail shopkeepers' pre^ mises cheaper?—Certainly. 2008. Then every consumer who buys at any rate pays less that what he formerly did ?—Yes. There are so many people going round now; there are such a lot in the trade that one does not know where to stop. There are so many travellers, one trying to cut another out in price, that it is wonderful really how they can afford to offer the stuff at the price they do. 2009. As I understand, your object is to keep the price up?—-Most decidedly. 2010. And not allow it to fall ?'—Yes 2011. You treat a fall of price as an objectionable- thing ?—Most decidedly. 2012. You have told my friend, Mr. Lyttelton, that. you visited some of these places where the men are working ?—Yes. 2013. Do they employ foreigners, or do they employ only English people?—They employ foreigners. 2014. Man#- ?—As many as they can get, according to the amount of trade they do. 2015. They pay them less wages than they used to?" —Yes ; cut it down as cheap as they possibly can. 2016. That is less wages than formerly ?—Yes. 2017. So your point is that the English workman is, getting less money?—The English workman is getting knocked out, commonly speaking. 2018. Have you any knowledge whether the English . workman or the foreigner produces more work ?_The« English workman is not used to making the work like ' the other man does unless it is the same sort of work or the same class or prices 2019. I cannot follow you. Give a boot to be made by an Englishman or a Russian Jew, which would make it the quicker and better ?—The Russian would make it the quicker, but the Englishman would make it the better 2020. Slow and sure ?—Yes. 2021. Why do the persons you employ take on these- Russians ?—-I do not know. I could not say that. I suppose it is convenient for them, because they get the work done at the price. 2022. You say the Englishman makes a better article ? —Yes ; but he gets paid for it. 2023. With regard to the .article produced by the English workman and the article produced by the Russian, you say one is better than the other?—Yes. 2024. Would you give more for the om than for the other?—I would not give the one the same clan* of work as I do the other 2025. You have given it to a person, and you have nothing to do with him further, except paying and receiving ?—Yes.78 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: .. M\W. Silver stone. 12 May 1902 2(fe6. He employs some Russians and som ©English ? —Yes. 2027. You have nothing to do with whom he employs; when he brings you the work done by the Russian and the work done by the Englishman can you tell the. difference ?—Hardly. 2028. There is no difference in price?—No; not to know. 2029. As far as you know, they receive the same 7—'Yes. 2030. The real evil is (which, of course, is an evil) that .the English workman is receiving less than you think he ought to receive?—Most decidedly. 2031. You think you ought to pay more for your goods than you do?—And get more for them. 2032. That is the ultimate object of us all. You think the workman ought to get more. Therefore you would have to pay more. Then when you went to jour wholesale or retail dealer, you think you ought ^o get more, and when he goes to his customer he ought rto get more?—Yes. ' 2033. Has there been* any attack made on the London production by the Leicester and Northampton people ,3ut all lately?-—Not that I know of. 2034. Nor from foreign importation?—No. 2035. Nor by the American stuff ?—No. 2036. Really and truly, the result is you want to keep the work amongst the English workmen ?—I want to keep it among the people that will work honestly and get a living out of it. 2037. Do yon know anything of the number of .^English workpeople out of employ in your trade ?—Nc , I do not. 2038. Are there any complaints of people being out •of employ ?—No ; there ought not to be, because a man that knows his trade couild always get a job. 2039. Even now ?—Yes ; it is only those people that do not do the work properly or do not want to do it properly who would be out of employ. 2040. Supposing we were to stop these 3,712 people working in the metropolitan area, what do you think would happen to the trade?—It would be very serious at the first go off. 2041. In what way. Surely it would not be very •serious?—We would find it a difficult matter to get tthe work done for a time. 2042. You would get over that, surely ?—We would ; .get over it. We would have to find the labour from ^somewhere. 2043. Where would it come from?—It would have to oome from the town. 2044. Have you got 3,712 men, more or less ?—Yes ; and there are thousands of people now in Northampton and Leicester and Leeds 'that would be only too glad to oome to London or to go anywhere to get a decent job- 2045. These Leicester people are getting mucli higher wages now. You would have to bring them up to London?—Yes. 2046. Would you pay them Leicester and North- ampton wages?—No. • 2047. That would be a great deal more ?—No. 2048. But I know what those wages are ?—They work on a different system. 2049. They work time work ?—Yes. 2050. You would have to bring them up to piece work ?—Yes. 2051. You would have to pay more than you pay ^•■fchese Russian and .Polish. Jews?—Yes; you would have to pay them more—decidedly more. v 2052. And you would have to get vastly more from your retail and wholesale dealer?—Yes ; but then we ■ would be producing a better article. 2053. Do you say that the London workmen who are working for you produce an inferior article?—The majority of them. ; 2054, You get a- low price?—Yes. We have to work one with another. It is no good charging 6d. or Is. a pair more for my work than anybody else does., ■v* 2055. Would the Leicester and Northampton work- men interfere with your London workmen, as well as the Polish Jew?—No ; I do not think so. 2056. Why not?—Because there would not be any trouble at all in that. 2057. But you have told us that the British work- men and the Polish and Russian workmen produce pretty nearly the same article. You have told me if you get rid of these foreigners you would bring up the Leicester and Northampton workmen, who would produce a better article ?—Yes. 2058. They would produce a better article, not only than the Russian workman but also than the British workman ?—I do not say they would produce a better article than the English workman. 2059. But you have said that the Russian and the English produce the same article?—There are so many different branches and so many different sorts in the trade. 2060. Take it all round. I understood the Leicester and Northampton workmen were getting higher wages, and the reason was that they produced a better article, and if you brought them here they would go on pro- ducing that better article?—Yes. 2061. And that is better than the London article and better than the Russian?—Yea ; it is better class. You cannot get away from it. 2062. Do not you think it would somewhat inter- fere with your London workmen, whom you wish to protect?—Yes ; it would do a little. 2063. Which, of course, is a very serious matter; but I will not discuss it with you. 2064. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do most of the meni who work for you belong to unions?—No ; not that I know of. I do not eonploy any union men. 2065. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I should like to ask one or two more questions. Your general conclusion is that there is a great deal of sweating in this shoe trade in London ?—Yes ; any amount of it. 2066. And a man that does not sweat the man below him cannot make a living at the trade ?—That is so; he cannot get a living. 2067. With regard to these prices, can you take any certain class of shoe and say what it costs to get up ? —Yes ; half a crown. 2068. That is a certain class ?—Yes. 2069. Supposing it is 2s. 6d. or 2s. 4d., what will the sweater make it for ?—He would get 3s. for finish- ing that shoe, or 3s. 6d. 2070. 3s. 6d. a dozen?—Yes. 2071. What does he pay the men?1—He would pay the men, out of the 3s. 6d., Is. 6d. 2072. Also Is. 6d. per dozen?—Yes. 2073. Have the men to> provide anything out of that ? —No ; he would provide the necessaries. 2074. Then you say, with regard to these people •coming, that it is a fact that when a man gets up a little way he sends for more of these people to come? —Yes. 2075. So as to supply him with this cheap labour ? —Yes. 2076. Can you say anything from your personal knowledge as to the condition of these people ? Are they cleanly, or what?—It is a business that they -cannot properly keep themselves clean at. 2077. I do not mean that, but I mean in their 'habits ? —I should not like to say. They are not as clean as they ought to be. 2078. You would not like to say what?—I say they are not so clean as they ought to be. 2079.' In their habits. ?'—In their habits. 2080. Are they obliged1 to live in overcrowded and difficult conditions ?—Certainly; because they do not earn sufficient to do otherwise. 2081. Now, I want to get a little more out about these bankruptcies. Have you got any special instance now before you of a bankruptcy of this kind ?—I could tell you one or two instances ; but at the same time I would prefer bringing you the facts on paper. 2082. In the newspaper ?'—Yes, in the paper, and then you could see for yourself, and it would save me trying ' - to gueks at things, . because you would have it in black and white. 2083. Perhaps you would bring those papers ?—Cer- tainly. 2084. And you will ]*iit them before us ?—Yes.minutes: of evidence.. 79 2085.; Details of these bankruptcies! ?-—Yes, that occur from week to week. It is a matter of impossibility fo£ an honest man to keep time with them 2086. (Mr. Vallance.) Is there a 'superabundance of labour available .in your trade?—Just now there may be. . • ■ . ■. ........ 2087. But generally?—Yes, of late years. (^tajofr MvansfQbrdon.) What do you mean by your trade? 20813. (Mr. Vallance.) A superabundance of skilled labour in the trade—& superabundance of labour avail- able for the various departments of manufacture in your trade?—We have never been in want of anything of that land, as far as I can recollect. 9,i. If the foreign labour was not available, would there be -sufficient English labour available for the manufacture of the present quantity of goods?—Yes, 2090. Are you manufacturing precisely the same class of goods as you were 18 years ago?—No. I have been obliged to compete with some of the stuff that has been made to cut me down considerably, and under those circumstances, I have been obliged to try and get up a cheaper article, or else I should not , have been able to exist.,.... 2091. Is that cheaper article which is manufactured an article, which originally, 18 years ago. was manu- factured in this country, or was it imported?—It was neither imported nor manufactured. It is one of the different ideas these people have of getting up from time to time, to try and introduce a cheap thing into the market. 2092. Do you know anything at all of the cheap slip- per trade?—Not the slippers, I do not. 2093. There is a considerable quantity of these made ? —-Yes. 2094. Were those goods originally imported from Mr.W. Germany?-—Yes, part of them. , , , Silverstone. 2095. (Mr. Norman.) Is there a superabundance of. " skilled labour?—-Unfortunately,there is. ' ^ 2096* There was a question raised by your reply to a question of the Chairman, which I want to ask about. It is rather an abstract matter, but still it is an im- portant one. You said in reply , to the Chairman's question, that you looked upon the fall of price in the finished article as an evil thing. You do not mean to say that under all circumstances, you would regard it as an evil thing that a man wanting & pair of boots should . be able to buy them at a lower price ?'—No, I meant 1 would rather a man buy them at a higher price, because he would be getting an article that was worth the money. 2097. What I want to know is whether you really mean that you would regard, a fall of price in the fin- ished article as always an evil thing, or whether you would not think, given certain other conditions, it is an advantage that a workman should be able to buy his pair of boots cheaper. It is about the other things I was), going on to question youP—I do not quite follow you. 2098. I am afraid I do not make myself very clear?— You said in reply to,the Chairman, that you regarded a fall in price as an evil thing. Would not you say that a fall of price is an evil thing so far as it involves ruin and bankruptcy to tradesmen, and the most miserable wages, and the worst class of sweaters ?—Quite so. 2099. For that reason it is an evil thing ?—Certainly. There would be nothing else possible. 2100. When cheap prices involve those conditions . then you look upon their fall as an evil thing* Cer- tainly. 2101. But not necessarily ani evil thing in itself?— No, Mr. Chajiles Barrett, called ; and Examined. 2102. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are Registrar of Births and -Deaths in;iSt. George's ?—'Yes, in iSt. George's in the East. 2103. How long have you lived there?-—16 years. 2104. Have you any other public positions there ?— Yes, I have been on the board of guardians, on the late vestry, and am now on the borough council of Stepney, and have also been a member of the London County Council. 2105. Are you living in St. George's now?—No, I have removed within the last six months to Ilford, but I a^in.business in St. George's. 2106. What is your business ?—That of a confectioner. 2107. . How long have you been Registrar of Births and Deaths ?—Since October of last year. 2108. You were a guardian before, and also on the County Council?—Yes. 2109. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you on the County Opuneil ,now>?—No* I a.jtn bn the Borough Council of Stepney a £110, (MdjovMvans+Gordoni). Wheaiywearer> you / first on tlie board of guardians ?—About 11 years ago. :2111. How long) werevyou on; the guardians ?—Up trl 1 last October, when I resigned. : 2112.; When were; you on the County Council ?—1 served three years up till the last election on the County Council, and I have been on the ,olcL yest^y, ajid^sub- sequently on the borough council during the.last l2 years. 2113. [Chairman.) You resigned the -guardianship when you became Registrar of Births and Deaths ?— Yes,.. 2114. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You have been in public life of all sorts and capacities for a long time ?'—Yes, for'the l'kst" 12 years.' " 1 2115. Now, you have observed, of course, this numbei of'foreign people arriving in the Eakt 'End of London ¥ —:Unfortunately. i2115j : Will you tell the Commission wihat your feelings , and experience about these immigrants. are ?-^-My feeling is that in St. Gedrge's4n-therEa£t they have been the utter ruin of that parish since the time the great influx; began, about seven or eight years ago. (Chairman.) Are St. George's in the East and Stepney co-terminous ? 2117. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is one of the divi- sions of Stepney and part of the Borough. You say the influx into St. George's has been during the last eight years or so ?—Yes. 2118. Before that the alien population were confined , to Whitechapel and so on?—Chiefly Whitechapel. 2119. But they have spread ?—-Yes. The whole of the westward of St. George's, I may say, now is composed of aliens. 2120. And that has involved a great displacement of the local population ?-—Considerable. I may also addr because it may be an advantage to you to know that for some few years I was the honorary secretary of a certain political association in St. George's in the East,. where I had to do the registration each year. I can therefore speak from experience of the canvassing each year of whole streets that were devastated of the* British, the houses of which are now occupied by the- alien classes. 2121. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What is the population in the- west ward ?—-The whole of the population of St.: George's; is about 47,000, and the east ward is the largest. I should say the west ward is about 20,000. 2122. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is that process going on from west; to east ?—It is going right down to the east now. There is only one ward they have not touched, and that is the. south ward, because they wilL not have them there. 2123. Why is that?—They have attempted it, but the people will not have thejji. They smash the, iwindows and the doors in when the aliens get there, and they soon clear out again. 2124. The resident population do that?—Yes—in the aouth that is. 2125. Should you say this displacement of population, which has gone on owing to the influx of aliens from abroad, has been attended by hardship on the resident population ?—Undoubtedly, in every way. Mr. C. Barrett. 12 May 1902.80 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : 3fr#* 2126. In what way?—In the first place, it has not C. Barrett. only driven the people out from their houses, where —j— some have been bred and born and lived for 30 or 40 12 May 1902. years—there are instances I know personally of that —— kind—but you cannot get a house there unless you? pay key money for it. The houses are tenanted by these aliens. Then, owing to the overcrowded state of the houses the rents have gone up most considerably, and then when you have got into a neighbourhood of that kind they open parlour windows as provision shops, and deal entirely amongst themselves and deal with the neighbours, causing utter ruin to the tradesmen. I know several good tradesmen have had to leave in the last few years. They have either gone bankrupt or else had to leave. 2127. They set up a competitive business of +heir own, to the exclusion of the resident trade?—Yes; they deal amongst themselves!; they do poor ?—Yes. 2219. They always! say they are unable to pay, do they ?—Yes. L Mr, C. Barrett. 12 May 1902.82 ROYAL COMMISSION. ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: 2220. And, therefore, the ratepayers have to pay for 6. Barrett these people?1—Yes. T9 M~~^iQn9 2221. {Chairman.) Can you tell us whether there is a * 1902. greater proportion of mentally afflicted children amongst the aliens than amongst natural born subjects ?—Taking the population, there are more Britishers than there are aliens; I could not tell you the proportion. 2222: It is the poverty that '-causes this evil, I suppose ? —I suppose it is the poverty, and the conditions under which they live, which are greatly accountable for it. 2223. And their inability to pay ?—Yes. Then, again, there is another point that the Guardians - have fre- quently before them, and that is the number of females who go there to be confined. They constitute a charge on the rates; and the tale is, even when a woman is married, that her husband is away in America, and she cannot find him. 2224. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And they are confined in the infirmary?1—Yes, and they throw themselves on the rates during the time. - 2225. Should we be able to> get the actual figures 1— Yes. 2226. Of the imbecile children, the medical relief, and the confinements ?—Yes. 2227. Is there any other way in which you say these people come on the rates ?!—I think those are the three chief ways that struck me. 2228. With regard.to schools, do you know anything about the schools?1—Do you mean at Plashett ?' We have none there. 2229. With regard to the Board Schools, do you know anything about them ?—Yes. 2230. Are they largely attended by children of the . foreign population P—Yes; I believe the arrangement is that if 75 per cent, 'of the alien children attend a Board School it is really made a Jewish school; and I find a number of the schools given to the Jewish schools in consequence of the fact that they have more than 75 per cent. 2231. Is there a rule about that ?—I believe: there is a rule. I was told by one of the governors that that was the rule, when I was speaking to him about it. 2232. (Mr. Lyttelton.) I thought the Jews were one of those people who have the advantage of having a school to themselves on the terms of a Board School t—I think not. 2233. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There are none abso- lutely and exclusively Jewish?—No. 2234. Now, at Christian Street there is a new school ? —Yes. 2235. That has recently been built to accommodate 1,000 children?—Yes. 2236. Do you know what the proportion of Jewish to Christian children is there ?'—No. As to Philpot Street, one of the governors told me that they had 96 per' cent, of Jewish children there. 2237. We can get the figures from the School Board? —Yes, certainly. Examined by Mr. Lyttelton. 2238. You have been interested in work which brings you into intipiate connection with the poor, for how many years ?—Twelve years. 2239. I want to distinctly understand whether it is your point that the difficulties which you have spoken of have been created or increased by the alien popula- tion ?—Increased certainly. 2240. Over-crowding, of course, existed there largely before?^—I am afraid I did not quite catch your point. 2241. I ask you whether you say that these difficulties have been increased, in your view, or created ?—I may say created and increased. 2242. Before the last eight years, was key-money known?—I never heard of it; never heard the term used. 2243. Then, so far as key-money is concerned, your point is that it has been created ?—Yes. 2244. Now, take the next point—over-crowding ; of course that had existed, and exists widely all over London It had, but I might say not to any extent; we never found it to any appreciable extent in St. Georges- in-the-East previous to the last eight years. Now and then we would have cases of over-crowding, and w& used to deal with them; but never did we have mid-night visits or anything of that kind. That was unheard ot at thai time. 2245. Do I understand that you now have a reluctance to enforce the law, or that the magistrates show a m luctance to enforce the law ?i—The magistrates show a re- luctance; and I do not think myself that we are too keen upon it, because we think it is no good. We have the reports brought up. Our medical officer gave us a report about two- months ago, several pages of foolscap, on cases of over-crowding; but I do not think there was anything done in the matter, because, what can we do? We serve the people with notices, but if they do not clear out, and we take them to the Police Court, and the pro- cess takes six weeks; then they get fined Is., and they go into the next street. 2246. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You take proceedings against them as a nuisance?1—Yes; we cannot really do anything. 2247. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You consider that your efforts to enforce the law are paralysed ?—Yes, quite futile. 2248. Let, me take these two points of which you speak; you say that the natural population is driven out, and that the aliens deal entirely with each other. Taking those in the order of sequence, does the operation of the key-money and the higher rents, first displace the Christian population ?L—That is the first thing. 2249. Leaving, I suppose, a certain number of Christian tradesmen still in the street which has been invaded ?)—Yes; I have known .English tradesmen almost surrounded by an alien population not taking a shilling a. day. 2250. Are you speaking of your own personal know- ledge when you say that the alien will rather deal with a person remoter in distance from him if he is of his own faith than with a Britisher who is nearer to him ?— Yes, and I can exemplify that by stating that in the centre of St. George's is what is termed the " Watney Street Market," with splendid shops, and no doubt paying very high rents and rates'—it is where I have my own place of business. The fact is that these aliens have set up .a market of their own with stalls and barrows in James Street, and Samuel Street. We have even had toi send for the Commissioner of Police, and ask him to send two special constables to try to keep the barrows moving. It is a perfect market, like Petti- coat Lane on a Sunday ; and, instead of going to the ordinary market, they have created a market of their own all round the side streets. They have 120 or 130 barrows there every morning, and there are two con- stables doing nothing but moving them round and round the streets ; and all the foreigners flock there - to buy their things, instead of going to where the Britisher used to buy them. 2251. Except in the South Ward, have you known any instances of rioting or violence used ?—Yes. 2252. Many instances?—Yes. 2253. Outside the South Ward?—Yes, in the East Ward as well. In fact, there was a perfect riot about four months ago in Cornwall Street. Some people were moving into a house on the Sunday afternoon, and the people came out of their houses, wrecked the house, threw the furniture all over the place, and drove the van away. 2254. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That was in the papers at the time?'—Yes, and I was a witness of it. 2255. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You saw it yourself ?—Yes. There was a perfect riot. 2256. You apprehend the spreading of scenes of that kind ?:—I am afraid they are spreading. I am only sur- prised it has not happened before, considering the feel- ing. You cannot go among a body of men there but what it is all the talk. They say " Ain't nothing going to be done. We had better take it in our own hands," and that seems to be the feeling in the South Ward, where the Irish are chiefly preponderating. That is down at the docks, over the bridges. They will not have it over there. They know what has taken place in the Upper Ward, and they say, " If they come down we will see that they do not stop," and as soon as they show their noses they have to fly. 2257. Have you studied the question all over London sufficiently to give us any opinion as to whether the evil would be substantially , mitigated or removed were theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 83 aliens dispersed throughout London generally instead Of Concentrated at a particular point?—-No, I have not studied the question from the point of view of all London. I have simply studied the question from what I have seen before me for the last few years in the East End. In fact it has touched my pocket very consider- ably. I can speak personally of what takings were in my qwn business, and how I have suffered the last few years. Where -1 have some years ago taken £9 on a Saturday night, it has dropped down to £3. That was_ before I dropped my business. 22J58. That was as a confectioner?—Yes. Whereas people used to come from all parts of the parish I now nrid nothing but foreigners walking up and down, who do not want anything off me. 22159V Is it that there are alien confectioners com- peting with you, or a thriftier population declining to deal with you?—No. The tegular customers Who used to deal with me have gone. They have all left the neigh- bourhood, • 2260. (Chairman.) Have the others not got the; money ?—I do not know if they have got the money, but if they had the money they would not come to me. They tv culct iiot come to a Britisher, ■ 2261; (Mr. Lyttelton.) When you speak of the medical belief- are you speaking of the East Ward only?—No, I speak of the! East and West. 2262. How is the population there, British to alien? —In the West Ward the whole of the population is prac- tically'alien now, and in the East there is a majority of Britishers. 2263c When you speak of 50 per cent, of the appli- cants being alien is it a fact that 50 per cent, of the entire population are alien ?—No, I do not say that. My point, is this : that a working man, if he wants the help of a. doctor for his wife, or his child, will pay the 6d. or Is., and go to a dispensary, and get it, but these foreigners do not. They go where they can get it for nothing. \ 1 2264. I only want to see what the true purport of th© figure is. Can you tell us what the proportion of alien to British population in these two wards is, so that we can see how much 50 per cent, is ?—I am afraid I have not got those figures before me. . • - - , (Chairman.) 18 per cent, of the Stepney population is foreign, (Major 3vans-Gordon.) Yes, but that is irrespective of the children. Examined by Mr. Norman. ,<2265. You spoke a moment ago of the British in the %st'Ward?'—•Yes.'' • . ; ; 2266L Are their1 numbers stationary %—No,; they , are , gradually being displaced, and I might say another" thing—even a firm of English landlords, who have got' about" 300 houses, have only recently raised the rents of the whole of the 300 houses. . 2267. Do you happen to have any personal knowledge of the methods by which the Census was taken?—No, I have nothing to do with that. 2268. You could not say anything which would throw, any light on the accuracy or otherwise of the Census figures ?—No, I aim afraid not. 2269. Have you any knowledge at all of the methods by which the immigrants are enumerated by the Board of Trade and the Customs House officials when they come in f—No, I know that I see droves of them arriving. * J2270, Within your recollection has the class of Russian and Polish immigrants altered that comes in—has /it altered in quality ?—Only that they are very dirty and cjilapidated as they arrive. 2271. What I want to get at is, is there a lower stratum abroad being tapped, and are they decreasing; in quality?—That I could not tell you. i know they are a dirty lot altogether. -22*72. Do you happen to know whether there is any MM:^f organisation to bring these-"people in ?-^-That; I: could not say. I have heard, of course, when these settle down they send over for their relations to come. ^2273. Do you happen to know who meets these people When they arrive, not knowing the locality, and not sneaking the language?—I do not know who they are, but yoU will see droves coming along, and you will find 6144 somebody walking along at the head speaking to them Mki in their own language and beckoning on where they are Oi Barf to go. - 2274. You do not know who those leaders and guides ^ May l9Q2., are?—No; I have gone so far as to follow them, and I llave seen a large drove go into a large house in St. George's. 1 have seen as many as 20 or 30 go into one house; 2275. (Chairman*) Is that a shelter?—It is a large private house occupied by the foreigners. I suppose: they stop in there until they are distributed round- about. 2276. (Mr. Norman.) Are there any other nationali- ties in the district you know best, such as Italians ?-— No. We have a few Belgians, but they are a decent' class of people, and not many of those* They are chiefly ; Poles* ■. 2277. You do not see the Italians and that class of: immigrants ?—No; there is no appreciable difference. I- do not find any. 5 2278. Do these people in the districts you know amal- gamate with the British population?—No. ! 2279. Not &t all?—No, not at all. They keep them-, selves right aloof, and do not amalgamate in any way. 2280. Not even in the next generation?—No. 2281. They retain their alien solidarity?—They doJ entirely. 2282. I gather from several of your answers that these people only deal with their own race?—Exclu- sively, I can go so far as to . say exclusively. You will hardly find' one buying a ha'porth of anything off any Britisher. 2283. It is a boycott of the British trader ?—It 'is as far as St. George's-in-the-East is concerned, absolutely! 2284. It follows, whenj there are a large number of these, as in your West Ward, that what we have got is, practically a foreign colony ? — You have a foreign v colony. I should like you gentlemen to go round there one day if you have the time., You would be surprised. 2285. It is a foreign colony, speaking a foreign ■' language?—Yes. 2286. With foreign habits of life, with foreign virtues and foreign vices ?-—Everything foreign; 2287. And quite solid as regards trading amongst itself?—Exclusive. : 2288. With regard to the Statute of Charles the * Second against Sunday trading, there is, of course, no'."! attempt to enforce it ?- -I think it is practically obsolete all over the country. 2289. But there it would be ridiculous ?—It would be i absurd. 2230. Do I gather from your previous answers with • regard to the law about overcrowding that the point is- that, with the best will in the world, you cannot enforced it while this influx continues ?—I do not see how we can, because they will only go into the next street, and . if we attempt to prosecute, the magistrate fines them, a shilling each. - 2291. The magistrate will not attempt to enforce it ? —He says from the Bench, and we cannot blame him, " Where are these poor people to go?" 2292. You speak of yourselves, the Guardians not being much keener because of the impossibility ?—Yes, it is' so. 2293. With all the good will in the world you cannot enforce the law?-—No. We have served them with the abatement notices, and if they go we find them in the1 nest street, and we could sei^ve them with another notice, and then they would dodge back agaia. 2294. You know that a number of people referring to the alien immigration say that the law exists in this country, and all that is necessary to abate any evil which may have arisen is that the existing laws should be en- forced. No doubt you have heard that said ?—Yes./ ,2295. What is your opinion?—I should like those gentlemen who say so to try and, exercise it and carry, it out. • ... • . 2296. (Chairman.) Of course that only relates to over- crowding?1—Yes, I understand that. - ) , 5 2297. (Mr. Norman.) Of - course, I mean that. : Do L 2ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. you know that any classes of foreign residents them- Cm Barrett, selves are against unrestricted immigration?—Oh, yes ; 19 TV/r—1009 ^ know two or three who have been here a number y of years, and they are complaining about it. I know a man named Abrahams in Cable Street—a tailor. He said it ought to be stopped. He said they are all flocking over here; there are too many of them. , 2298. Those who have displaced the British are them- selves being displaced ?—Yes. Mow it is getting too strong. 2299. Bo I gather from all your evidence that you, as a public man of these districts, with an experience of many public positions' for over 12 years, . regard this matter of unrestricted alien immigration as constitut- ing a most grave and possibly even a dangerous evil, threatening to result possibly in a breach of the peace? —I say, with due deliberation, that it ought to be stopped, and that if it is not stopped I am afraid, especially in the East End of London, something serious will occur one of these days. 2300. You regard it as a serious matter?1—As a most serious question. 2301. Demanding some treatment of some kind?— That is so. 2302. You say that on your own responsibility?—I say it with a feeling of great responsibility. The proceedings were adjourned for a short time. Examined by Mr. Yallance. 2303. With reference to the effect of the alien popu- lation upon the pauperism of St. George's-in-the-East, you say that some 50 per cent, of those who apply for inedioal relief are aliens?—Just so. 2304. Medical relief consists of medical attendance and medicine?—Yes. 2306. And such nourishments as may be ordered?— As may be necessary: 2306. As may be certified ?—Yes. 2307. Have you, in your experience as Guardian, found that the certificates of the medical officer have been used for any purposes other than for that of nourishment?—No. That would not come under my notice as a Guardian. 2308. You have not heard that?—No, 2309. With reference to the number of imbecile chil- dren for whom admittance is sought in the Metropolitan Asylum Board's schools, are the imbecile children out of proportion to the Jewish population? Are the number of children admitted into the Darenth Asylum from your parish out of proportion to the Jewish popu- lation?—I do not know whether I can go so far as to say it. is out of proportion to the whole of the Jewish population. All that has struck us is that we have had a very large number of the Jewish population who have come before us in that way—a greater proportion than what we should have of the British population. 2510. The British population has been replaced by the Jewish population ?—If the Britishers had remained we should not have had so many imbecile children coming on the rates. 2311. Do you mean by that that the number of im- becile children of Jewish parents are out of proportion to the number of imbecile children of English parents ? —Just so. 2312.. How long were you a member of the Vestry before the formation of the Borough Council?—I have been altogether about 12 years now, and the Borough' Council has been in existence since last November 12 months. 2313. You have had considerable experience of the working of the Housing of the Working Classes Act?— No. We have never put that part into force. We have never had any opportunity to deal with the Housing of the Working Classes Act. 2314. But merely the clauses in the Public Health) Act ?-^-That is so. 2315. When you have taken proceedings for over- crowding, have the proceedings been taken against the occupier or against the landlord ?—Against the land- lord of the house. 2316. Have you experienced any difficulty in obtain- ing convictions against the landlord as compared with the tenant ?—No. We have generally served our notice upon the tenant, and if they have not abated the nuisance we have prosecuted the tenant. 2317. Have you found that the magistrate has hesi- tated to convict as against the owner until the tenant has been proceeded against?—No, because as a rule we have always gone against the tmant. 2318. And the fact has been that where an order to abate has been made, the overcrowding has been merely transferred to another house ?—iSimply transferred from one street into the next. 2319. You appreciate the value of the Act which penalises overcrowding?—Yes, if it could be carried into effect. 2320. And if the matter were cleared up you would do your best to prevent overcrowding ?—Yes. 2321. By proceedings ?—Certainly. 2322. From your experience have you come -to any conclusion as to the defects in the present Act, and as to the direction in which we should look for legislation? —No; I am not the Legislature. I am afraid I have not set myself down to lay out a plan by which it could be avoided or obviated; that is not part of my duty. 2323. The Legislature looks to those who have the practical working of Acts for suggestions?—We can see the defects, and we can see the causes, but the question of the remedy T think lies in another chamber, and not with us locally. 2324. With regard to the proceedings against owners or landlords, who would be the next person proceeded against after the tenant? Would you proceed against the person who receives the rack-rent of the tenement, or the landlord who lets the house?—In our case we have never had any difficulty in finding whom to proceed against. We have found out who has taken the house, and who has let it out to these various sub-tenants, and we have proceeded against him. 2325. What would be the effect of a person who lets to a .tenant at a high rent (being assumed to have know- ledge of the conditions of overcrowding and being made liable?—I am afraid I do not quite gather what you mean. 2326. What would be your judgment of the state of the law under which the person who is the immediate landlord of the tenement, the person who receives the highest, or rack-rent, were made responsible for any overcrowding in that tenement?—That is a very wide question. A landlord when he buys house property, as I have already explained, down there, lets the house to the best advantage for the most money he can get, but I am not able to say whether there is any law that can touch hian, or whether -there should foe a law to touch him, (because they are all alike. It is not only the foreign landlords, but the English landlords do the very same thing. 2327. You feel' that the house farmer should be reached if possible?—If he could be reached; I do agree with that. 2328. Can you say in what direction we should look for the dealing with him?—No. I am afraid I am not in a position to lay down the line which should be adopted. 2329. Just going back for a moment to the effect upon pauperism, can you say what number of children you have in Plashet Schools? — None at all of the Jewish, I think. 2330. What number of Protestant children ?—I think 136 is the number at the present time. 2351. Is it within your knowledge what number of these children there are in the Jewish Orphan Asylum? —No, I could not say. I do know this, and I think it may have an influence with the Commission, that at the present time the Board of Guardians at St. George's are considering the question of dispensing with the Plashet Schools owing to the fact that there are only the children of Britishers taken into the schools, and th» numbers have fallen so low that it is coming out at something like 17s. per head to keep the children there. The school is certified for something like 600, and we have only 136 in the school. 2382. Is that largely by reason of the children, of Jewish parents being sent to the Jews' school and the children of Roman Catholic parents being sent to the tertified schools?—We always did do that. Roman,MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 85 Catholic children were always sent to their own schools, and we were at one time able to fill[the Plashet Schools with our own, but it is owing to the depopulation that we have been unable to fill the Plashet Schools. 2333. In the East Ward of St. George's, where the English population have not been yet displaced, what •class of population are they—are they dock labourers ? —Dock labourers, coal porters, carmen, and men of «hat class, brick labourers and men employed in the building trade chiefly. I should say they are dock labourers and men who get their living at the water- side, and carmen. 2334. English or Irish?—They are chiefly English. 2335. Were the same class inhabiting the West Ward before ?—Yes. Examined by Lord Rothschild. 2336. You mentioned St. George'>s-in-the-East?—That is the place I am speaking of. 2337. I think you said the general character of St. 'George's-in-the-East has deteriorated ?—No doubt about that. 2338. And you attribute it a great deal to the alien immigration ?—I do. 2339. I suppose you are aware that the prosperity of "St. George's-in-the-East depended to a great extent on the prosperity of the docks. The population of St. 'George's-in-the-East was largely employed in the docks ? —A great number are employed at the docks and the waterside. 2340. And a diminution of the prosperity of the 'docks would mean also a diminution in the prosperity of St. George's-in-the-East .?-—I do not know that I go so far as that. I do not know that it makes very much difference. 2341. You do not know anything about what tihe medical relief used to be formerly before it was given lay the parish ?—No, I cannot go back beyond 12 years. 2342. Then it is no use asking you about that. You •say that the foreigners form a very large proportion of those who fall on the rates?—No, I do not think I said that. I said that they form a large proportion of those who fall on the rates as regards medical relief. I said there was about 50 per cent, who applied for medical Telief. 2343. I think you also said the foreigners had dis- placed the British in a large area?—In the West Ward undoubtedly. 2344. Do not they pay a very large proportion of the rates there ?—Of course they have to pay the rates. 2345. That is very important ?—Of course they have to pay the rates. Examined by Sir Kenelm Digby. 2346. I gather from your evidence that y taken by aliens—the English residents are driven away. Shops and houses have changed hands, and the English people are practically. driven away. 2383. .Do you consider that that driving away of the people is attended with hardship to the people driven away ?—Very great hardship. 2384. Have complaints reached you with regard to that hardship ?—Yes. I have numbers of friends who have suffered through the hardship. I -have one or two specific cases written down here if you will kindly allow me to read them to the Commission—I shall be glad to do so if I may. 2385. Please read them ?—Here is one case, the case of Mr. Chadbourne, who lived at 39, Varden Street. He was secretary to a very large and ably-managed pro- vident and loan society, whose sections met five times a week. His home at this time was within speaking distance of his society's room. I cannot exactly tell what his rent was previous to this time, but at this time it had been so raised that he could no longer pay it. -. 2386. How long ago was this?—-Four years. He got. notice to quit. ;;i!2387. Do you know who was the landlord ?-—Yes. - 2388. Did: the house change hands 1—The house had changed hands shortly previous to that. He spent a fortnight in trying to obtain another house in the neighbourhood, but could not find a, .suitable one. His notice was about to expire, and he was compelled to take a house in the suburbs, about four miles away. This is what followed: He was not a robust man— rather asthmatic. His principal work was from 8 till 10.30 in the evening ; and while he lived at Varden Street he could get home in a minute or two, and suffered no ill-effects in the worst weather, but it happened to be in the winter time that he went to the suburbs, and then he had first to walk a quarter of a mile to get a train or 'bus., and if it happened to be a wet night he could not get inside one at all, and this actually hap- pened a week or two after. A wet night came ; he had to travel outside, - caught a chill, and was dead in a few days. I say, emphatically, that man's death' was iriainly attributable to this influx of aliens. . 2389. Are there any other cases of that nature you know of?—Yes. : 2390. Where people are displaced?— Yes, there was Mr. Scott. I am well acquainted with an old man nearly 70 years of age, named Scott, who for 30 years lived at No. 36, Varden Street. That is the same street as the other man lived in. 2391. That is in the west ward of 'Stepney?—Yes. He was, and is, a jobbing joiner, who had a good con- nection, and could make a comfortablei living for him- self and family. His rent for many years was 7s. 6d., out about two or three years ago it was raised to 16s. His business had already suffered by the dis- placement of his English 'customers. He could not pay the rent, and was driven out to the suburbs, and has to travel four or five miles in his old age to his work. He has lost nearly all his old connection, and at his time of life " cannot make anew connection ; so that he is practically ruined , by this alien invasion. His rettt was raised from 7s. 6d. to 16s. 2392. Had the house changed hands in that case ?— No, in this case the house had not changed hands, but the houses on each side of his had changed hands. When his landlord found that the houses on-either side of him which had been recently, resold were getting their rents enhanced his landlord claimed the same roni from him. 2393. Are there any more cases of that kinjd?—Yes- There is the case of key-money. 2394. Are there any more cases of displacement No; I think that is the only other one I have written down. 2395. Those .are typical cases of the sort of thing that, is going on all the time?—Yesthese are one or two- typical cases I have written down concisely. ~ 2396. These could be multiplied to any extent?—To* any extent almost. 2397. This displacement of population has gone on under your eyes?—Yes. 2398. The English residents leaving and the alien people coming in ?—Exactly. 2399. I want to know, with regard to the character* of the people displaced, were they respectable, well- to-do people ?—I should call them the flower of the workers of Stepney. 2400. These sort of people who lived in Varden Street ?! —Yes. 2401. Now, what do you know about key money ?—r I know a good deal about it; but I will give you one- case which is typical, I daresay, of all the rest. There' lived for many years at No. 8, Gray Street a Mrs. Fox. Last autumn nearly all the houses in this street were bought up by a foreign Jew named Harrowitz, of. 316, Commercial Hoad, East. Mr. Fox goes to sea, and is away from home several weeks at a time, and Mrs. Fox does a little business as a dressmaker. Their rent up to this date was 8s. per week. The first time Mr.. Harrowitz called after becoming proprietor, he told Mrs. Fox her rent from that date would be lis. 6d. per week. She protested, and said she could not pay, and would have to leave. Well, he isaid, as she had been so long there he would take 6d. off, but she would have4 to pay lis., the solicitor's money, and lis. in* advance, besides a deposit. The poor woman—her husband being at sea—was at his mercv, and was actually mulcted of 30s. by this harpy at one swoop.. After a week or two she found another hotise at 62,, Spencer Street, where she lives now. And knowing, that others got key money, she naturally thought she1 might have it too. I should say, however, that whem she paid the 30s. Mr. Harrowitz suggested she could" get' it recouped by the key money which she could" obtain. She asked Mr. Harrowitz about it. He said,, yes, if she was going she could send to his office, and he would give her a bill to put in the window— a Hebrew bill, I believe, and that she was to ask £7 for the key. She was to send the applicant with the money to him in the first place, and then he would divide it with her. He said he would take half of the key money and give her the other half, and at the same time, if she sent to his office, he would give her a bill in Hebrew to put in the window. She did so, and in a day or two an applicant came for the house, and after some bargaining the applicant offered £6 key money, and£ she took him to the landlord, Mr. Harrowitz, who re- ceived the £6 from him, and then came the question* of handing over the half to Mrs. Fox; but at this- stage Mr. Harrowitz declined to hand over the half. He said it was one of her neighbours, an alien who kept a greengrocery shop, who had been the means of sending this tenant, and it was not through the bill in the window. He said the tenant had come through this neighbour, who had sent the teoiant, and he would require to get 10s. out of the £3; so eventually, after some squabbling, all Mrs. Fox got was £2 15s. So within a week or two of becoming landlord of this house which had previously for many years been let at 8s., and dear at that, Mr. Harrowitz squeezed, be- tween key money, etc., some £4 out of it. 2402. Now, with regard to key money generally, it: is a general practice down there?—-It has become so within the last 10 years or so. It has been introduced1 by these aliens. 2403. It is quite a new thing ?—Absolutely new. 2404. Produced by the tremendous pressure of these* aliens to get house accommodation?—Yes; to find a house at any rent, and then make it up by overcrowd- ing the hotise. v" 2405. The only way they can make it up is to over- crowd the house ?—That is so.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 87 . 2406. It has been alleged thiere.'have-'beeja.. notices g>ut up about "no English applying "?—Yes. 2407. Have you heard anything of that?-—Yes; I thave seen two of them. 2408. You have seen two notices personally ?—Yes. 2409. In which "no English need apply" is put up? —In on© case it was written with a finger or a brush with whitening on the inside of the pan© of the win- idow. It was not a painted board, but it was quite dis- tinctly written on the inside of the pane of the window. 2410. With whitewash?—Yes. 2411. Did you see any other notices?—Yes.- This which was written in whitewash was on the so-called "mansions" of a Jewish syndicate of builders, "Davis's Mansions/' at the corner of Rutland Street and Sydney Square. That is where I saw the notice written with whitewash on the window. In the other place a board was displayed further down Sydney Street, at Charles Martin's Mansions; that is two years ago. 2412. Is Charles Martin an English landlord ?—He is the proprietor of a public-house called " The Blind ^Beggar," and he is an Englishman, an English Jew. 2413. He is a Jew?—Yes. 2413*. Have you heard of other cases, not only in Stepney, but elsewhere, where there is " no English xieed apply " ?—I have heard of a number of cases in Bethnal Green, Blyth Street. 2414. Has this been the cause of a good deal of ill- feeling and resentment on the part of the people?— Indeed it has; feeling runs very high at the present moment on it. 2415. Was there mot a case in Bromhead Street, a Isey money case ?—Yes. 2416. What was that case ?—~A friend of mine, named .Alfred Walkerdine, lives in Bromhead Street, Stepney; lie has lived there all his married life, about 12- years. 'There were no aliens there when he took the house, hut gradually his English neighbours got displaced, till last summer his wife had not an English neighbour -bp speak to, nor his English children an English play- mate. He himself is employed in an upholstery factory in the City, where a number of his shopmates are foreigners also ; and one day last summer, at meal- time, he happened to say in the hearing of these foreigners that he was sick of it, and would get out of it as soon as possible. Next morning at nine o'clock a rap came to the door, and a gentleman, evidently *of the Polish persuasion, stood before him. " What do you want?" said Walkerdine. "Oh, Mr. Walkerdine," said he, " I was hear you was leaving, and I was come to give you £5 for the key." I could tell you Mr. Walkerdine's reply; but he did not take the key money. 2417. Is he still there, in Bromhead Street?—Yes. 2418 He was offered £5 for the key of his house?— Yes, the very next morning, after he had said in the Iiearing of these foreigners, in the workshop, that he thought of leaving because his wife had not an English neighbour to speak to, or his children an English play- mate. 2419. Bromhead Street, is very much further east than Varden Street ?—Yes, a quarter of a mile further -east, or rather more. 2420. And the influx is spreading down there?—Yes, much further down there; it is spreading itself out in all directions. 2421. With regard to this key money, and so forth, Tiave you any idea where these people get the money to play about with sums tike these ?—No ; it is very difficult to conceive where it comes from. ' 2422. Is it borrowed money ?—Borrowed, or got some- how or another; I could not tell you exactly how. It iis a marvel how they come to obtain it so soon. At any rate, English people cannot get it. 2423. Among other things that cause ill-feeling, and •so on, and feeling of resentment among the people, is the fact, is it not, that these people work on a Sunday?— Yes. Sunday is a perfect pandemonium, instead of being a pleasant time. Even last, night the streets were a perfect pandemonium, with Sittings and removals going on. At 11 o'clock in the forenoon, when the . so the places are filled" up t—Yes. 2482. And the market, m to speak, for these high rents, and the temptation to1 charge these high rents,, are supplied by this constant supply bf people from abroad. That is what enables the landlords to specu- late in house property ?—Yes. 2483. If these people were not coming here there would not be this tremendous pressure and rise of rents?—No ; that has been, and is, the cause of it. 2484. That' gives them their opportunity, so to speak ? —Yes*MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. F. H. Onion, called ; and Examined. 2485. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where do you live ?-— 53, Penshurst Road, South Hackney. , 2486. What is your profession or trade?—I am a clicker in the shoe trade. 2487. What is a clicker ?—A cutter of skins. 2488. Have you come across any competition in your business from this foreign influx^—JMost decidedly. For instance, there is scarcely a shop dn the trade now that does not employ in some shape or form alien labour, for the reason that they work so much cheaper than the native workmen do, and this not only affects the Christian workmen, but the native Jewish workmen. It affects anyone who desires to live decent, because they could never live decent on the price that these aliens earn for their weekly wage. 2489. It affects the native population and the Jewish population here adversely by the numbers of people who come?—Most decidedly. 2490. There is a constant screwing down of wages? —Yes. 2491. Owing to the constant supply of cheap labour from abroad ?—Quite so. 2492. Should you say those conditions were per- manent or temporary ?—Permanent, decidedly. 2493. Is it a thing that has been going from bad to worse?—Yes, and getting worse every day. The way they do it is this, to give an illustration. For instance, take a shoe in the finishing and lasting. Those are the two branches that they affect principally. It may be a shoe on* the London uniform statement of wages at 5^d., and the way they do it is this. One man, who has been here some time, and has got in the know of the work, employs five or six, perhaps, of these un- skilled labourers directly they come over, giving them 2s. or 3s. a week and their food, teaching them their trade, as he tells them. By the aid of these appren- tices he is able to take out the work so much cheaper and still make, a good living himself. He is the sweater, and in time the victim gets into the know. We must not assume that they are always silly for ever. The thing repeats itself. The sweater's victim becomes the sweater. 2494. And he gets others over ?—Decidedly, and takes the work out, and by the fact of taking the work home and finishing the work or making it, as the case may be, and by living and sleeping and working all in the same room, they are enabled to cut down their ex- penses ; and unless an English workman or a Jewish workman consents to live in the same indecent con- dition he has to go to the wall, and walk about look- ing for work. At the present time there are hundreds of men walking about looking for work, while these aliens have work and to spare, by reason of the cutting of prices. 2495. What do you mean by saying hundreds of men are walking about?—Looking for work. And at the price they ask they can get no work. 2496. Tbev will not pay the wages ?—No. It is neces- sary for theim to earn a certain sum per week to keep themselves in the way they have been used to, in de- cency. Say they have two or three rooms for their wives and children, their living comes to a pound per week. Unless they can earn 30s. per week, it is no use their taking a job, and they cannot earn much more than 15s. a week, whereas the alien® live on 7s. 6d. a week in one room, and their food costs them next to nothing. Consequently, they are able to save out of the 15s., a week's wage. 2497. The Sunday work has been referred to. Have you seen anything of the kind in Hackney ? You live in Hackney ?—Yes. I may tell you personally, this does not affect me, because it does not affect my branch of the trade so much as the lasting and finishing. I am in the clicking, and being in the clicking, unless they pay for skilled labour they would lose more than the;? would gain, because the skins cost 50s. or £3 a dozer:, and every piece thrown on the floor means so many pence, and consequently the masters have to employ skilled labour for the cutting up of the skins. 2498. The clicking is cutting up of skins ?—Yes, for the boot-uppers, but the parts they affect materially are the lasting and finishing, and that is where the cut- ting of prices' comes in. 6144 - ■ , . : "K, F. U. Onion. 2499. What about the Sunday, work ? Do you come ^ 1902. across Sunday working ?—-I do not think that refers-- to me. 25p0. I have noted it down here ?-—No, that does not refer to me, although, so far as I can see, I must say this;, that they keep their Sabbath, so far as I know, but, of course, they work upon the Christian Sunday. 2501. The general run of them would keep their Sabbath probably more closely than we keep ouir Sab- bath ?—That has come within my notice. 2502. Do you know anything about these cases of bankruptcy and people failing ?—I have here1, in the a Boot a,nd Shoe Record," the case of a man named Alexander Pearl. 2503. When is this dated %—'May 2nd, 1902, of the " Boot and SEoe Record." This man is a German-Eole. He came over here a matter of about nine years ago. I know the man personally myself, and he jhad not a penny piece nor a decent suit of clothes. lie went on in the leather travelling business* and. four, years ago he started for himself in business, and everybody believed he was going on very nicely. Early in May he goes bankrupt for £4,627. His assets are esti- mated to produce £334 10s. 4d., and the only ex- cuse he gives for the remainder of the sum deficient is, that he always lived decent and drew from £12 to £16 per week for his household expenses* Of course, I must leave that to your own consideration as to what you think of that, but those are the facts of the case. That was Alexander Pearl, of 210, Mare Street, Hackney. 2504. Is that a changed name or the original nante ? —That I could not tell you. 2505. Did you know his name before?—His affairs are not settled up yet in bankruptcy. I do not know how they will deal with them, but these are the facts; of the case, as laid before the Official Receiver. 2506. Did he make any offer of composition ?—He offered 3s. in the £, and they would not accept it, so they bankrupted him. They considered his explana- tions very unsatisfactory. 2507. Are these bankruptcies of frequent occur- rence ?—-Yes. 2508. What do you attribute them to ?-—I attribute them to deliberate attempts at a swindle, because at the price they sell the goods they could never legiti- mately pay for their leather, and therefore, such time as they are in existence, tihey are under-selling the goods, and honest men, wishing to pay their way and live decent, have no chance whatever of competing; with these people. 2509. The competition is so great that it induces them to try and .sell the goods for prices which bring them to ruin ?•—Yes. 2510. They buy the leather on credit ?—Yes. They start with a small banking account, and in time they get on the same as this Alexander Pearl. He obtained, the confidence of tradesmen, and they have the g$ods; on credit, and fail to pay. They go on for so long, and! then they pull up for a round sum, but during the time they are on the market they are injuring the trade in a dreadful manner, because anybody who wished to pay has not a ghost of a chance. Say he gets a shoe up for 2s. lOd., these people are enabled to undersell him by 5d. or 6d., because they do not mean to pay for the leather, and they employ sweated labour. 2511. And you say sweated labour is a great evil ?— They take the two. 2512. Sweating is going on badly?—Yes. 2513. Owing to the fact of these people coming over here and being at the mercy of the people who employ them ?—These people who are very fond of making a pleasure of bankruptcy are principally themselves aliens. They are really the sweaters. In the first place a man saves a little money and goes into business, and goes into a big swindle. Under our present laws, I sup- pose, we must not say it is a swindle, but the facts,are plain. It is a swindle, and everybody says so. 2514. Do you know anything about the conditions; under wbiah these people live?—I remember about three months ago, at the request of a gentlenian, I MROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. F. H. Onion. 12 May 1902. went in company with two Mends—I am speaking from memory, and if I make some mistake, I hope you will correct me. 2515. I have not got any note of it?—At 32, Fidd- ling Buildings, in one room, we discovered five adults and six children. 2516. What district is that in?—It would be Samuel Street, in Whitechapel. The passages approaching that place were in a most filthy condition. The child- ren had been using the corner of the passages for con- veniences, a^id it looked to me as if it had not been cleaned down for months, being of wood, and the stench was frightful. There were dustbins on the landing containing fish offal and the liike, and you can imagine the smell was anything but agreeable. Then at 19 or 21, Samuel Street, you will find; there is a front room in a small house. They were selling poultry and soused herrings, and in the same room was a bed, in which lay a woman, exposed to the gaze of passers-by, and two other women in the same room, and three men in this kind of shop and sleeping-room. It is very usual in the East-end for shops and beds to be in the same room. I think you will find there, as well as in Booth Street, Buildings 132, there were three men at work, two women, and a couple of children in the same room, and a bed in the room. 2517. At work ?—The men were at work. 2518. That is home work ?—That is what I say. They take the work out, and finish, or make it, as the case may be, at home, and they work and live and sleep in the same room. 2519. That is all shoe-making ?—Yes, I am speaking of shoe-making. 2520. That is what enables them to do it at these fearful prices?—About three years ago, I had occa- sion to see a finisher named Barnett. It was half-past one in the morning. He had not brought some work in which had to go away in the morning. Up in the room there was a woman and her child asleep dn the bed, and five aliens, besides this man Barnett, were finishing the boots, and cooling their irons in the chamber. 2521. In the same room 9—Yes. 2522. You saw that yourself ?—Yes. With regard to these other remarks I have handed in, I have two wit- nesses to substantiate them, one of whom is a man of the Jewish persuasion, who will substantiate everything I have handed in. Examined by Mr. Lyttelton. 2523. With regard to these bankruptcies you have been describing, are they chiefly aliens ?—Principally, when it is absolutely on the face of it a swindle. I do not say all the cases are, because you may have some Christians as well, but that is the principal thing they seem to aim at—reducing bankruptcy to a fine art. 2524. You say the particularly fraudulent bank- ruptcies take place among the aliens more than among any other, class ?—Yes. 2525. Are the aliens you are speaking of the aliens we have heard described this afternoon in Stepney?— Decidedly. 2526. Those are the bankruptcies you have been describing ?—-Yes, that is quite correct. 2527. Do you agree with the description which has been given of these aliens this afternoon?—I do not quite know what description has been given of them. 2528. For instance, that they live exclusive lives, and trade with each other entirely ?—I do not quite follow you as regards that. 2529. It has been said about 10 times that these aliens trade exclusively with each other, and not with other people ?—I say such is not the case. 2530. Then you do not agree with that?—I say they trade with Christians as well, and for Christians. In fact, the bulk of their trade is principally with Chris- tians, to the detriment of Christians. 2531. That is your point of view?—Yes. That has come within the range of my experience. 2532. You do not agree with the other witness that they trade only with their own class and their own people ?—Let me explain myself. When you speak of trading exclusively with their own class, do you mean that they employ their own class, or do you mean that they take work out from a master of the same class as their own? 2533. I do not know anything about it myself. I am asking you?—In regard to the employment of the labour, they would never get a Christian nor a Jew, who has been resident amongst us English people for a long time, to work at the same rate of wages as they get these aliens to do. 2534. Cannot you answer this question ? Do you or do you not agree with the witnesses who have said that these men are a solid community,, trading only with each other? Can you say yes or no to that?—Yes, but there are two views to take of that. They do not trade with each other. These aliens work for Christians. If they can get a Christian master to give them out work they will take it. If you ask who these sweating masters employ, I say they employ exclusively their own class. 2535. That is a question not so much of trading with another as working for another. 2536. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Shopkeeping is what the evidence referred to?—They patronise their own class as regards shopkeeping. 2537. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You say these bankrupts are traders ?—Boot and shoe manufacturers. 2538. It is triading debts* which they fail to pay?—• Now I can see your point. You mean they trade ex- clusively with their own people, and defraud their own people of money. 2539. Yes, that is what I want to know ?—No, suoh is not the case. You will find, if you know more of this class of people, that they are a very cunning class of people, and they would never let a creditor run for but very little time. The people they, defraud by fraudulent bankruptcies are principally Christians. 2540. Your view is that they do trade with Christians ? —Decidedly so. 2541. (Mr. Norman.) But, as regards retail trade, do they buy from Christian shops?—No. I am in the wholesale manufacturing. I can only speak on that point, but I can tell you it hais never come under my notice to find an alien has gone and purchased a pair of boots off a Christian. 2542. Then your replies to Mr. Lyttelton have only reference to wholesale trading) ?—Most decidedly. 2543. {Major Evans-Gordon.) They wo^ld not affect the welfare of the shopkeeper, the small English shop- keeper in a district largely inhabited by aliens, at all? —That is quite another case. I was speaking on the wholesale point. 2544. And the reason of their going to the wholesale leather people would be that there are very few of their own people in the wholesale leather trade, and, there- fore, they have to go to Christians to buy their leather ?—No ; it is because they find, as a general rule, their own people know the class of people they have got to deal with, and they are very sharp. To take in one of these people who is in a good position wants a bit of doing. Directly the time is up for a bill to be met they press it directly. 2545. As between (aliens?—As between alien and alien. 2546. They would press it directly ?—-Most decidedly. 2547. They are much sharper on the look-out?—They know the class of people they have got to deal with. 2548. They wiill not let them run a long bill?—No, that is it. 2549. (Mr. Lyttelton.) May we get a summary of your view of the questions I was asking. I do not want any- body else's view than yours. Is it your view that an alien deals with an alien in retail or not ? We have got a distinction set up (I do not know whether you set it up) between wholesale dealing and retail deaing ?—It is a very wide distinction, too. 2550. We know that, but I want to know whether it is a distinction which prevails in your view in this par- ticular connection?—-Upon the retail trade I have no knowledge, and I would not speak upon that. 2551. Then we will dismiss it. DCs it your view that the fraudulent aliens, of whom you have spoken, deal with each other, or with other people in the wholesaleMINUTES, OK EVIDENCE. 91 trade, or do they deal with both ?—I do not think they are over particular at all about it. I think they will deal with either and both. . Examined by Mr. Vallance. 2552. Axe these fraudulent bankrupts, of whom you have spoken, few or many?—They are many. In fact, almost every week in the " Shoe Record " you see an alien name down to meet his creditors. 2553. And to that you attribute the undue competi- tion?—Most decidedly. 2554. And the reduction of prices?—Yes. 2555. If these cases of bankruptcy are many, what is the effect upon the wholesale trader ?—I will tell you the effect on the wholesale trade. It is this. During such time as they are running in business the prices that they sraU their work at are such that no man who intends to live honestly and wants to pay his way could possibly compete with them. Supposing the very lowest a man could produce a shoe at would be, say, 2s. 4d. to pay his way. and meet his bills, and then, he finds when he£ takes it into the warehouse that somebody is producing a shoe for 4d. or 5d. less. Upon the face of it it shows that no one could produce that shoe at 5d. less, unless there was some underhanded means or another—the introduction of unskilled labour, or that they did not mean to pay for their leather. In fact, at some of the warehouses now, as I think my employer mentioned -this morning, they say when they have a shoe of that description, " Let us buy as many as we can, because it will not last long." It is a recognised thing when they get a shoe at such a low cost, that there is some underhanded means, and it will not be long on the market. 2556. How is it it is not a recognised thing on the part of the leather merchants to withhold that long credit?—That is a different point altogether. I am speaking of the wholesale production as a manufacturer. In regard to the leather merchant, they only injure other leather merchants, and not the manufacturers. When a leather merchant gets on the market and undersells the goods, it is bad for another honest leather merchant who wishes to sell and get a fair profit. 2557. I am speaking of the fraudulent manufacturer. If I am right, as he progresses, he obtains a larger credit from the leather merchant ?—That is quite correct. 2558. But these fraudulent bankruptcies are so fre- quent, that one would assume they have an effect upon the leather merchants, and that they withhold that credit ?—Decidedly it does. 2559. Hbw is it credit is given where these fraudulent bankruptcies are so frequent ?—Because these men start and get a little money together, and they have a banking account, which is necessary before they can obtain credit. Then these leather merchants from their Associations inquire as to the social standing and financial standing of the man, and if they are satisfied, they make no more inquiries, or very seldom, but they give him his credit. Then these men go on for the first month, and for two or three months they pay their bills and get the confidence of their creditors. Then, when they have sufficient to make a nice little spill for a round sum, they go bank- rupt, and let their creditors in. 2560. There is no suspicion on the paint of the leather merchants in regard to this transaction ?—No, because they run on very likely for two or three years, and then the leather nierchants regard them as old customers. 2561. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you mainly attribute this cutting down of prices to these fraudulent practices, which result in bankruptcy ?—Yes, and sweated labour as well. 2562. You aitltriibuite thecutting downof the prices in a. great (measure to the fraudulent practices which result in bankruptcy ?—Yes. 2563. Underselling in a way which leads (necessarily to bankruptcy ?—Yes. 2564. Hbw is that connected in your view with the alien immigration ?—It is connected in this way, because by obaining sweated labour from these aliens they under- cut the prices, and they are enabled to cut the shoe very low in the rate of wages. That is one point, and these aliens, when they get a little money together, become the fraudulent bankrupts. 2565. They start by underselling their lafbour, and then they prosper to a certain extent?—And if they do 6144 not prosper, they look after themselves. When a man Mr. goes bankrupt for £4,000, as I have got a-case here, F. H. Onion. inside of three or four years, and he «ays he has been Mav 1^02 drawing £12 a week, you can please yourself whether " v' ; you; Believe he has been spending £12 a week. I should infer he had not been spending it, and I should infor he had 'been putting a little bit by for a rainy day. 2566. Do you mean to say there are a great number of men out of work now ?—Yes, a great number. 2567. BDow long has thialt been going on ?—'For the laslt four or five years, and getting worse every day. 2568. Going aboult and asking for work, and not able to get it ?—Decidedly. 2569. I understand* you are in the employment of the first witness, Mr. Silverstone ?—Yes. 2570. Your work is thiaft of a clicker?—Yes. 2571. Dioes that bring you into personal conftaot with these aliens?—Yes, it does. 2572. Because they do the work for which you have cut out the leather ?—I have, to a certain extent, to see them every day. 2573. You cut out the leather, and' a certain number of leathers are given out to be made up with the other portions of the boot?—Yes. 2574. The people who make them up are, to some extent, these aliens ?—They are the aliens. 2575. So you see them in that way ?—Yes ; Not from, memory, but I shall b® very pleased to obtain it for you. The Poor rate and'i the General rate is what you want. In the Board iSchools. of the Stepney Borough the number of children born abroad or born in England of foreign parents is exceed- ingly large. 'I have not the latest returns by me, but accurate information will go to prove that there are now imany thousands. That represents an increase in the- School Board rate for increased accommodation and in- creased staff; and, incidentally, the very large number of foreign children for whom we have to find school' accommodation in Stepney inflicts another serious hard- ship upon our people. iSchools must :be built and eifces. must be acquired. There are few, if any, vacant sites, in Stepney; therefore houses occupied for the most part by respectable English people have to be pulled down to secure these sites, and in that way again our peoples- are dishoused—indirectly it may be in this case, but. none the less truly—through the increase of foreign; population. Only recently the (School Board have- scheduled three additional sites in our borough for new schools—Myrdle Street, Blakesley ,Street, and Bromley Street. This will involve the pulling down of at least 50 houses, all of which without exception are occupied by~ British families and long-standing tenants. It may be argued against this that the foreigners pay rates, and therefore pay their share towards the education of their - children. Eor the simple reason that they live for the most part whole families in a single room, and that it is possible to assess these rookeries only at their fair- rental value, I maintain that it is largely upon the shoulders of the British people who occupy at most one * house between two families that the burden of this additional cost falls. 2647. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Before we leave that about the Board Schools, I understand that there are- considerably more Board Schools in Stepney and this- part of London than there are in other parts of London of a similar area ?—That is an undoubted fact. 2648. That you attribute to the greatly increased num- ber of people on the ground, and the well-known prolific- nature of the foreign population that has come in ?—Yes,. I do. 2649. That is to say, there are a great many more- children there proportionately to the area of population* than there would be if the district were inhabited by our own people ?—{Far more. 2650. Consequently that necessitates the destruction^ of house property for the construction of schools?—Un- doubtedly. 2651. I understand that, although it is not in your* note, there has been a large Board School built at Chris- tian Street ?—That is so. 2652. Just opened?—Yes. 2653. Is it the fact that the school accommodates 1,000^ children ?—Yes. 2654. Have you any idea how many of these prolific • are children of foreign parents born abroad or in this country ?—I am given to understand that the great ma- jority of them are either children of foreign parents born abroad or iborn here. 2655. And apart from the effect that it has on the- rates, it would oe true to say that this puling down of" houses and building of Board iSchools for the accommoda- tion of foreign children is another cause of bitterness of" feeling and indignation in the East End ?—'Undoubtedly. 2656. Of course, when these children are here we have to educate them. That is unquestionable, and nobody^ objects to that?—GSTo. 2657. Buit still, it is a further cause of resentment and bitterness, and, you say, a rate burden?—Yes, it,is a- cause of resentment on the part of our people, and an additional responsibility which our people have to bear " in the way of rates. 2658. Now we come to the General rate?—As to the responsibility of these foreigners for the increase in the*MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 95 ^general rates, I would mention this fact: that in the nearly part of last year, in renewing a contract with -Messrs. Gibbs, Ltd., our then contractors for the •-scavenging -yf St. George's, we had to pay a largely in- creased sum because of the additional filth in the streets -which the contractor had to clear owing to the dirty liabits of these foreigners. They recognise no sanitary system of .dustbin or dust pail. All their garbage—all 'the filth of every house—is thrown promiscuously into the -street. It is true that we have a street inspector, and that wherever it is possible we try to bring the -offenders to book; but an occasional conviction does .little to induce habits of cleanliness or decency. 2659. Can you tell us something more of this in- troduction of the system of key money which is a form -of bribing people out of their houses?—Only this: "that it is the rule rather than the exception for key -money to be paid. 2660. You have referred to the introduction of key money?—Yes, the introduction of the system of key money whereby landlords and agents are bribed into tgiving undue preference in the selection of tenants for their houses, dates from the commencemnt of the foreign invasion of East London. Never, within my knowledge, .had I ever heard of such a system as key money until 10 years back. 2661. (Chairman.) Is that paid to the outgoing tenant -or to the landlord or the agent ?—It is paid in the majority of cases to the landlord, and in other cases to the agent, and in some cases to the outgoing tenant to ;get out. 2662. That is very much like what occurs in Ireland ivith the outgoing tenant. It seems to me to be a bonus when paid to the landlord or agent?—A bonus or premium. 2663. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is one of the results ill your opinion of the tremendous pressure and demand for house accommodation?—That is so. I may say I have a case before me, only given to me last night, in Bussel Street, Stepney, where a widow woman was -paying 8s. per week when she entered the house. The •'rent'has now been increased to 17s. 6d. per week, and tie landlord threatens to still further increase the rent unless she goes out. In the meantime a certain other 'tenant—a foreigner—who requires the house has offered Tier 30s. as a premium to go out of the house. 2664; That is how it goes on?—Yes. 2665. You were saying that this system dates from the commencement of this foreign influx into East London ?—Yes ; but I may say that it is not only with .regard to key money but in other matters that bribery has been almost reduced to a fine art by these foreigners. Take for instance the market which is being estab- lished in Samuel Street, St. George's, by the foreigners in opposition to that of Watney Street, once the most 1 flourishing in the whole of East London. The foreign -costers in Samuel Street are allowed to set all police regulations as to the distance to be observed between • street stalls at defiance; they block the pavement and 1 the roadway, and are generally allowed to do things which no English coster would be allowed to do, or if he \did, would be promptly summoned for. 2666. (Chairman.) Whose fault is that?—^The fault • of the police undoubtedly. " 2667. Do they favour the foreigner. (Major Evans-^Gordon.) I shall bring some interest- ing evidence upon this point, 2668. (Chairman.) But why is that?—I have only ;my own inference as to the reason. 2669. Do not state it unless you like. Exercise your • own judgment as to whether you will state it or not?— "In the early morning again one may see vendors of bread—all foreigners—using with impunity the door- steps of shops and houses as impromptu stalls. Is it wonderful then that our people of the poorer classes '•cherish considerable bitterness of feeling to these people whom, rightly or wrongly, they regard as usurpers, when they see them more favoured by the police than are the British people? I cannot bring myself to believe that their freedom from molestation by the police is due to any prejudice of the police in favour of the foreigners, and I am afraid that the strong inference to ibe drawn from this is that-the system of bribery known as key money finds a counterpart, in a smaller way of Aldermtm course, among the street vendors. . J. X. Silver* 2670. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Has it ever come to 15 May 1902. your notice that these street vendors, who pull up their" -- barrows in front of the shops, pay the shopkeepers to be allowed to stand there ?—I have had numerous cases of that sort brought before me in connection with a branch of the British Brothers' League, at St. George's East, which meets frequently and at which we receive complaints of this sort. 2671 They pay the shopkeepers for their stand there ? —Yes. 2672. So that the shopkeeper does not molest them or move them on?—That is so. 2673. I have heard of that myself, and that is why I asked the question. (Chairman.) That would not justify the police want of action. 2674. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, but the shopkeeper does not complain. They square him?—The commer- cial morality of the foreigner in the East End cannot be said to be unduly high. In the borough of Stepney I believe I am correct in saying that fully 75 per cent. of the proved adulteration of food-stuffs is traceable to foreign traders, and Councillor Lewis, M.A., who cer- tainly cannot be accused of being an anti-alien, admits in his admirable book "The Jew in London" that an altogether unduly high proportion of convictions for false weights and measures, as proved by the County Council returns, and a very considerable number «f fraudulent bankruptcies arise from these foreign traders. Judge Bacon, of the Whitechapel County Court, has repeatedly expressed his opinion as to the terrible amount of perjury committed by the foreigners in the cases tried before him, and we have on record the fact that I believe on two occasions strong representa- tions were made from juries empanelled at Clerken- well Sessions as to the increasing number of foreigners brought before them. Their fondness for gambling is notorious. If evidence is wanted on that head it can be found in the' records of the Thames and Worship Street Police Courts, as to the number of raids made on premises in East London, ostensibly used as foreign restaurants, but actually used as gambling resorts. 2675. With regard to the feeling generally in the East End on this subject ?—I should say another cause of the resentment felt by the English residents to the foreigners is the aloofness of the latter. They form a colony of their own; they trade so far as is possible entirely with their own people, they refuse to assimi- late with the English people, and they do .noit trouble in the slightest degree to learn the language of the country of their adoption any more than they will con- form to its habits or customs, or respect its sanitary laws. 2676. With regard to the language, you mean the new-comers—not, of course, the children?—The new- comers, although it has been a matter of surprise to me to find foreigners who to my knowledge have lived in East London for from 15 to 20 years, scarcely able to speak a sentence in English. They are not proud of the country which has given them a refuge it may be from persecution. They do not trouble except under severe pressure to become naturalised British.,subjects, small though tlhe fees, now payable are. I was actively interested from 1892 to 1895 in a naturalisation society formed in St. George's East, which offered facili- ties by the payment of small weekly sums and frequent ballots for "draws" for naturalisation to foreigners who had been resident the required period in this country, to take up their naturalisation papers. The results were so disheartening, the utter apathy evinced by these people in the direction of becoming naturalised British citizens was so great that the society died a natural death of inanition. I believe that other socie- ties have been started in Stepney and Whitechapel, and are meeting with the same experience. 2677. Have you got any figures with regard to naturalisation,?—I find that from the 1st of January, 1900, until December 31st of the same year, 581 certifi- cates of naturalisation were issued, of which 84 related to persons resident in Stepney and East London; 581 was the total number of certificates issued for the year 1900, of which 84 only related to persona resident i \ * Stepney and East London.96 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Alderman 2678. 581 was ;for the whole of the country?—Yes, J* L. Silver. 84 of which were for Stepney and East London. 16 May 1902. 2679." (Chairman.) What is the number of years neces- - sary to naturalise ?—Fire years. The impression ... created -amongst British people by results such as this . is- that, these people while willing to take all the ad- vantages offered by residence in this country, are un- willing to take up the responsibilities of citizenship. From my point of view—an admittedly anti-alien vie v —-that is perhaps a matter for satisfaction, for did these people use their opportunity rtoi. become British citizens with >a vote for Parliament and other bodies, the British vote would in Whitechapel, Stepney, and S. George's, I venture to say, be entirely swamped. In St. George's East, for instance, although the foreign population far outnumbers; so far as accurate statistics can be ob- tained, the British population, yet on our Parliamentary register there are not more than 10 per cent, of foreigners by birth or the sons of foreigners. (Chairman.) Eighteen per cent, of the population in Stepney are foreigners. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is not counting children. 2680. (Chairman.) That is for electoral purposes ? Are there asi many as 10 per cent, on the register who are foreigners ?—I have given a very wide margin in saying 10 per cent. 2681. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you know the total population of St. George's Easit now?—Roughly,speak- ing; it is 60,000. 2682. Out of that do you know what the register of voters is now?—The register would not be an accurate guide for this reason, that whilst St. George's proper for the purpose of municipal matters has a population of 60,000, for Parliamentary purposes we take in Wap- ping. 2683. With regard to the Parliamentary register of the Parliamentary Division of St. George's, the Parlia- mentary Division of St. George's is, roughly, 60,000?— Yes. 2684. That is the population?—Yes. 2685. But then you say the Parliamentary register is not ia guide, because it includes Wapping?—Yes. 2686. And Wapping is nearly exclusively inhabited, up to now at all events, by English people ?—Fortu- nately so far. 2687. That would obscure the statistics with regard to Stepney proper?—Yes. 2688. (Chairman.) Is Wapping in Stepney ?—In the municipal borough of Stepney. 2689. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It would be possible to get by the register from the streets in St. George's proper the actual number of voters to the population ?— Yes. 2690. Perhaps you would try to get those figures for us, because they would be interesting ?—Certainly. 2691. Taking St. George's proper, exclusive of Wap- ping, from the register, you could total up the number of household and lodger votes therein?—Yes. 2692. (Chairman.) It seems that in the East End boroughs, Bethnal Green has a percentage of foreigners 3*57, Poplar 1*24, and Shoreditch 2*21. Then we come to the enormous jump from Bethnal Green 3*57 to Stepney 18-18. As far as you know that is correct?— As far as I know that is correct. 2693. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Of course those per- centages are always open to this criticism, that thq children of foreign parents born in this country are not enumerated as foreigners?—No, that is so. 2694. They are not counted as foreigners?—No. I might add one other reason for the resentment of our p,eople against these foreigners, and that is what we deem to be their lack of patriotism. Our local Volun- teer Corps contains an infinitesimal proportion of mem- bers who are either foreigners or sons of foreigners, and during the dark days of our disasters in the early part of the South African War I have heard groups of these foreigners listening with unfeigned expressions of de- light while one of their number translated from a morning or evening paper the story of another reverse. I am not exaggerating when I say that with their in- creasing numbers in East London, the once fawning, servile attitude of these foreigners has changed to one of arrogance and even contempt towards the English people. If you walk along Cannon Street Road on a fine Sunday afternoon the probability is that you will, be compelled to walk in the roadway. Many groups, of foreigners fill the pavement and refuse to allow even passage room for another passer-by. Again, I ask is it. surprising, in view of these facts, and smarting under the bitter feeling that these foreigners are gradually, but surely, clearing every street in East London of its English occupiers, our few remaining British residents are actuated by no too charitable feeling towards these- —as they regard them—usurpers? 2695. What about the effect upon our own people ?—- I should say that the effect upon our people in East London of this ceaseless stream of foreign immigration is depressing in the extreme. Work is hard in East London, wages are hardly earned, work is not too plenti- ful, house rents are dear, rates are high, and the con- ditions of life at the best of times are not of the hap- piest. When to all these things is added the scene almost every morning of hordes of these wretched people—un- clean, unkempt, speaking a foreign language, and half- barbarians—coming tramping along our main streets in charge of some interpreter, is it surprising that the heart of the Englishman, stout though it is reputed to be, fails him, and that he asks himself continually, What is the end going to be ? The presence of a foreign popu- lation on every hand, speaking a foreign, tongue, living, under indescribably filthy conditions, under-cutting in every trade, insidiously working up the price of rents, adding appreciably to the rates, disheartens our people. When I have spoken—as I have spoken to many of our people during this inquiry, and asked them to come and give evidence, their reply has invariably been, " What's the use ? The evil is beyond remedy. Things can't be much worse than they are." 2696. (Chairman.) That is not very encouraging to* us ? No, it is not very encouraging to anybody. 2697. Do they mean that it is beyond remedy by legi*~ lation or in any other way ?—I am afraid that seemed to be the condition of many of our people, disheartened as they are by this constant stream of foreigners coming 2698. (Major Evans - Gordon.) Now what is the Hjouising Cbimmittee of the Stepney Borough Qofinricil dJoang with regard to the bousing problem down there ? —I aim lajfrtaa'd that we aire dioing estremeily little. The- patabletm seems isio gigantic, and our rates' aire increasing to such a terrible extent that we feeil almost afraid to' engage in any vetry large sichetme. As a matter of fact., at the preisietnt moment we have one area upon which we aire erecting dweilfegis, the' Queen Catherine Court area, in Lftm'ehioulse. With that exception we are -en- gaged for the present in no building operations. 2699. Building operations have gone on, and- there- have been big buildings put up in recent years in Sitepney amd about there ?—N'ot by the Council. 2700. But by private enterprise?—Certainly. 2701. Are these now mostly in the occupation of' foreigners ?—Mostly in the occupation of foreigners. I wouild limsftia/njce in that connection largely the buildings erected by Messrs. Davis. ° 2702. (Chairman.) Houses?—Yes; houses erected by- private enterprise. 2703. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is said,, and no doubt: you can corroborate it, that there is a great displace- ment of population owing to the demolition of house property from, various causes, such as School Boards, factories, and railway development. That is so, is it not?—There is a displacement. 2704. That is in no way comparable- to the constant, displacement tihJat is going on owing to the foreign invasion?—By no means. It is impossible to speak with absol/ute accuracy, but I have made centaim com- puMionis, arnd I guess rofugfhly that there are between 7,000 and 8,000 hous'es within the mumicdpail borough of Stepney occupied by foreigners. 2705. (Chairman.) Out of how many?—I could not; give the exact total. 2706. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is to say, that: taking the census figures for Stepney, 54,500 roughly- plus the ch/rldjren, wttokfh we may assiume to be some- thing Hike 550 per cent, incrlelasie, according to Mr. Miacleod, that woruild give us 74,000 or 75,000 foreign people ?—Yes. 2707. And taking these at ten people -a house it would! give you 7,000 hiotuses ?—That is: the. average.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 97 2708. Between 7,000 and 8,000 houses in the occupa- tion of foreign people, thiait would otherwise be iin the occupation of our own pefoiple. ?—^Certainly. 2709. So your housing problem on the Housing Com- mittee is greatly oomplicafbed to that extent ?—It is com- plicated, undoubtedly. (Chairman.) The inJbabited houses in Stepney are 31,000? 2710. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Of course the figures you give are merely computations ?—-It is simply guess- work. 2711. Anyhow a vast number are occupied by foreigners?—-Yes. 2712. (Chairman.) Taking it at ten a house, it would be about 7,000?—Yes. 2713. Then uninhabited houses in occupation, 1,042. That must mean, I suppose, occupied as manufactories or warehouses; and "not occupied 592." Out of the 31,000 houses there are 592 not occupied ; can you tell nie why these 592 would be unoccupied; are they dilapidated ?—I should s&y the majority of them were driilapidiaited, and unfit for human occupation. 2714. There are some like that?'—'There are several in New Boiad, for instance. 2715. It may be that as the Census is taken one set of people are going out and the other coming in, or that repairs are being executed ?—That may account for ait. 2716. There may be something of that sort?—Yes, tltoaifc may account for ilt. 2717. (Mr. Vallance.) Then there was a large block sold or bought by Mesisrs. Miaann ?'—In Haven Road ? 2718. Yes? Those would be treated as unoccupied? —Yes. 2719. They were in existence then %—Yes. 2720. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They were in course of demolition then. You would siay, as a. member of the Housing Committee that this foreign inflow must, of course,, enormously complicate your housing operations ? —I go so faT ais to say that this stream of foreign immigra- tion has produced to a veiry acuisidierable extent ouir housing difficulty. 2721. And the pressure would be felt not only there, but in aM the diatrMis inlbo which -these people are beting ste&dliiy driven ?—Undoubtedly. 2722. Into the .neighbouring districts 1—Yes. 2723. So that although the cause is immediately in the Borough of Stepney, the effect would be felt in a muoih wider area ?—Yes. Examined by Mr. Vallance. 2724. Your picture of the district of which you have been speaking is a very serious one. Have you reached any conclusion yourself as to the direction which legis- lation shiodld take in order ix> find a remedy ?—-No, I jhjave not, but I do maintain this, that restriction in etome form must be adopted. 2725. Would restriction ameliorate the condition of the East End of London to -any appreciable extent?— X am afraid that restriction would not ameilioraite the condition of East London to amy appreciable extent_ for a time, in my opinion there must be first restriction, and then we muslt cotmmjence < to detail with the evil as ilb exists under the powers which we have. 2726. In the east of London the area is relatively small for a very large population, is it not?—It is small. 2727. Amd, consequently, the main problem is the pa^bleon of horuJs&ng ?—Yes. 2728. At present there is a very terrible amount of aveircsrowdimig, and that overcrowding is occasioned, is it not, by the periodical admission of foreigners into cer- tain localities within the district ?—Yes, that is largely tbe cause of overcrowding. 2729. And they are set down in front of certain build- ings, and at nightMl they are all absorbed infbo the population of these buildings ?—That is so. 2730. That is how the thing goes ;step by step ?—■ Ties. 2731. What should be done, do you think, to pre- vent this condition of things. Miay I puit ihe question in another fotrtm: the stalte of overcrowding which is possibly iaJcoentuated week by week by the entrance of fresh batches of foreigners is an illegal overcrowding ? —It in. 6144 2732. Is it possible by any amendment of the law to Alderman give the Borough Council or isome public authority power j% £, Silver• to deial effeclfcually with the question of overcrowding ? -- —No, we have our powers, but as I have (explained 15 May 1902. before, if we put our powers into operation, we only — clear people out of one house. 2733. In what respect .are those powers defective ?— (Chairman.) If you were to filter the legislation, what would you sit down and write ? What would you like to siee on the Statute Book if you hiad your own way ? 2734. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Of course with regard to this particular housing and sanitary point ?—I main- tain that we have sufficient powers ait the ^present time to deal wilth the evil provided tbalt the evil is not accentuated as it us month .after monith and year after year by the continual drifting of theise people, into our midst. 2735. {Mr. Vallance.) And these foreigners are con- tent to live under conditions which English people are not ?—'They are. 2736. And by reason of that overcrowding by other than the members of one family the rents are increased ? —-The rents are artificially increased.. 2737. And consequently there is competition for other houses- ?—Yes. 2738. And the English occupants cannot pay ?—That is SO'. 2739. If the question of overcrowding was effectually dealt with by legislation, would the reisult be a material diminution of rents?1—Yes, if the question of over- crowding could be, as you suggest, fairly dealt with by legislation. 2740. Supposing it were not possible to place more than one poor family in one room, would not that at once reduce the marketable value of that room?—Yes, I venture to say it would. 2741. And ameliorate the condition of the occupants of other tenements?—Yes, if that were possible. 2742. Have you found by your experience that pro-' ceedings are necessarily taken in the first instance against the occupants of the room before you take pro- ceedings against the rent receiving person—I cannot call him the landlord ?—'Proceedings are invariably taken against the landlord. 2743. They .are taken against the landlord, are they ? —Yes. 2744. It has been given in evidence that there is a difficulty, and that the proceedings must be first taken again'st the occupant, and a nominal penalty is im- posed ?—No, I cannot say we have found any serious difficulty in the borough of Stepney in dealing with the cases brought before our notice. 2745. As a borough councillor you have no particular desire for any further powers than you have?—No, I am quite content so far with the powers which we have. 2746. Are these powers sufficient to prevent this terrible congestion ?—They are sufficient to prevent this terrible condition of things if you will stop the stream at the inlet. 2747. Assuming the stream was stopped, we should. then have by the natural multiplication ana natural in- crease of population of these aliens very considerable congestion?—Yes, but I am taking it we should then have the co-operation which has often been promised, but which has never been acted upon, of our Jewish friends, who would then commence the work of dis- semination. 2748. There is no doubt you would agree that the crux of the whole question is this question of over- crowding ?—That is the crux. 2749. And that has led to all sorts of abuses?—Yes, undoubtedly. 2750. Including the key money or the premium in addition to rent?—Yes. 2751. You have no opinion to offer as to the direction which legislation should take ?—No. That is a matter which I would very much prefer to leave to the Com- mission. 2752. Any restriction upon the lines of, say, the United States would scarcely affect the stream?—I do venture to say that the great benefit of any such restriction would be the deterrent effect that restric- tion would have in Continental ports. 2753. Not to be measured by actual figures of rejec- tions ?—No, that is impossible. I am speaking of facts N98 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Alderman within my own knowledge when/ I say that every J. L. Silver, foreigner who comes across here forms in himself a - centre of attraction to other people in the colony he May 1902. comes from; and that his wife, his family, his father, and very often his grandfather and all his relatives come gradually in course of time, brought over and attracted her© by him. 2754. Would the present question arise in any serious form if it were not for this congestion in this part of London?, Would the question of alien immigration arise in any acute form if it were not for this congestion in the East End of London ?—No, I think not. I should say, as in the past, that foreigners.would be treated as they were treated years back, with tolerance and with good nature. 27x55. With regard to the competition in trade, has the competition had the effect of throwing out of em- ployment large numbers' of English people, or has the competition (had the effect of bringing into our home markets what was formerly obtained from foreign markets ?—I should not say that the foreign immigra- tion has resulted in throwing large numbers of our people from employment, bxut I should be rather in- clined to say it has tended to reduce wages. 2756. (iLord Rothschild.) I think you said that the Jewish population objected to naturalisation?—That is my inference. 2757. I suppose you are aware that Sir Samuel Monta.gue represented St. George's-in-the-East for a long time in Parliament ?—No, I am not aware of that; in fact, he never did ; he represented Whitechapel. 2758. When he represented Whitechapel hue introduced a measure into the House of Commons to facilitate naturalisation ?—He did. 2759. Reducing the term from five years to two years, and diminishing the requisite fees from £5 to £2 ?—Yes. 2760. And that was thrown out?—Yes, 2761. I suppose you are also aware that there are two s flourishing naturalisation societies in the JEast End where foreigners pay 6d. a week ?—I am aware of one, I am net aware of any more. 2762. The one you were alluding to I think was founded by Mr. Harry Marks?—Yes. 2763. And that failed because it was a political society, and not because it was a naturalisation society ? —That may be your opinion, my Lord, but it is not mine. 2764. I think we can dispose of the question of naturalisation in that way. Now you referred to the in- crease in the poor rate in Stepney?—In the Stepney borough. 2765. Have you looked at the figures published by the Whitechapel Board of Guardians last year ?—No, I have not. 2766. I think the Whitechapel Board of Guardians show that the poor relief was decreased something enormously—-60 per cent, in 10 years ?—Outdoor relief. Sixty per cent, would be the diminution in the whole in Whitechapel, whereas throughout the rest of the metro- polis it was 19 per cent. 2767. (Chairman.) What was Stepney ?—Whitechapel comes within the municipal borough of ^ Stepney, although for poor law purposes Whitechapel is /entirely separate. (Lord Bothschild.) These are figures which are taken from the Poor Law Relief, issued by the Local Govern- ment Board. The Poor Law Relief issued by the Local Government Board says that in the Eastern District, which, would contain (Stepney, there were 25^ per thou- sand in receipt of poor 'law relief in some shape or other. In the central district, where there are no foreigners, there were 48i per thousand, and the expen- diture for poor law relief in the eastern district, which was 25i per thousand, was not much more than in the northern district and in the southern district of London. ,2768. (Chairman.) I should like the evidence to deal with Stepney. Is Stepney a different union ?—Within the municipal" borough of Stepney there are the Stepney Poor Law Union, the Whitechapel Poor Law Union, the Mile End Poor Law Union, and the St. George's Poor Law Union. 2769. Im which of those unions) do these 18 per cent, of foreigners mostly congregate?—I should say in St George's. 2770. (Lord Bothschild.) Not in Whitechapel ?—Not so much in Whitechapel. In Whitechapel you have largely an English Jewish population. I should nofc class them as foreigners. 2771. (Chairman.) You have ispoken of the raising of the rates ?—Yes. 2772. The rates are estimated upon the rateable value of the house?—Yes. 2773. That is taken upon; the rental minus a certain percentage?—That is so. 2774. If these rents go up in the way you have spoken of (I think you have given us an instance of them going up as much as from 5s. to 35s.), do not you at once, by getting a higher rateable yalue, get more paid in by the same house in favour of the rate?—Yes, if it is possible for us to ascertain that the rents have been increased ; but, as a matter of fact, by various devices not unknown to these foreigners it is rendered extremely difficult to the Valuation Committee to ascertain the real rentals which are being paid. 2775. My own experience is, they never find any diffi- culty in putting up your rates. I should have thought they would find out in a moment by inquiry what rent is paid. How do you get the information if your Assess- ment Committee does not gert it ?—I obtained this in- formation in the case of John Street from the occupant, but only after a considerable amount of trouble. 2776. (Mr. Vallance.) Since the quinquennial ?—Since the quinquennial, of course. 2777. (Chairman.) If this information is obtained, does not the evil remedy itself P When you say there is a greater sum thrown on the rates, do not you get a greater source of payment into the rates by the high rent?—No, we do not. 2778. If the information is obtained ?—Yes, if the information is obtained. 2779. Then the evil is to be really met by a keener scent on the part of the Asse>ssment Committee?—Yes, but would not the natural result be this, that the land- lord would not suffer? He would simply continue to increase his tenant's rent. 2780. I agree with you, but the rates are paid by the occupier, and it is the occupier going in who is the foreigner who will have to pay the rate?—Yes, and he would make his sub-tenants pay. 2781. You would sret the case of the evil remedying the evil, because the foreigner has to pay this increased rate ?—And he would obtain his increased rate back by adding to the rent of his smaller tenants. 2782. I aim speaking of the occupier paying the rates. This is a compound householder rate?—Yes. 2783. The landlord would have to pay it?—Yes. 2784. With regard to the other ratepayers, they would be met by that ? The compound householder would have to pay a greater rate?—Yes, if we can get the informar tion. 2785. It all comes to this, that if you obtain the information you would be moving in a circle, because the evil remedies itself?—Yes. 2786. The thing is for us to look aiud see whether we can give a keener scent and a better opportunity of hunting in favour of the Assessment Committee ?—Quite so. 2787. That would meet that difficulty to a great extent?—Quite so. 2788. Now about tihia displacement. You very pro- perly have said in your view the great evil that exists here is the displacement of the people. Do you find in your Assessment Committee that when you proceed to remedy the evil you are faced at once by the question, Where are the ejected people to go to ?—Undoubtedly that is the great difficulty we have. 2789. Have you any power of meeting that question of where the ejected people are -to go to when acting on your Sanitary Committee?—No, we have ncrfc, and un- fortunately that is also, if I may say so, one reason why we find considerable difficulty when we go for a closing order to the magistrate. The magistrate is extremely reluctant to make such an order, because he very properly remarks, " Where are these people to go to? " 2790. If you put tihem into the street they must go to the workhouse ?—Yes. 2791. And there they are a charge on the rates again? —Certainly.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 99 , 2792. Have you no suggestion to make to us as a practical man as to 'whether anything can be done to meet this difficulty of finding substituted houses?—No, I am afraid; I would rather not go into that question. 2793. Of coursei this difficulty would exist wherever you get great attraction ?—Yes. 2794. 'So that when there is a. famine of houses, as in Ireland there is a land famine, wherever that exists you naturally find by gravitation almost the evil comes into existence ?—Yes. 2795. And it so happens here that the aliens do form the cause of that evil ?—They do form the cause of that evil. 2796. I hope I am not throwing too much responsi- bility on you, but do you think the remedy lies more in checking the cause of the evil—that is to say, checking the immigration—or, the immigration being granted, finding a remedy for the effect of that immigration ?— I would suggest that, to commence with, the remedy must first consist in attempting to restrict the immi- gration into East London. 2797. "Would you restrict it at the port where tne immigrants arrive, or at the boundaries of the East London area ?—I suggest at the ports at which they arrive. 2798. Supposing, if we could affect what you have .not ineptly called dissemination, that is to say, if we could spread them over a large area, what would you say as to the evil ?—I would say if it was possible to disseminate these people in that way the evil would certainly be alleviated to a very considerable extent.. 2799. I must not ask you ito tell us what toi do, but practically you would feel that the evil would be lessened to a very great extent?—-To a very great extent. 2800. If we could disseminate them?—If that were possible. 2801. And the evil, therefore, according to your view, is really a Stepney evil, in consequence of the centrali- sation of the evil in Stepney?—Largely a local evil. 2802. Of course if you disseminate you would get, perhaps with some slight reduction, the other evils which have been alleged other than the housing evil, such, for instance, as the low-priced workman?—Yes. 2803. And you would get the non-assimilation, ana so on?—Yes. 2804. You would get that even if you had dissemina- tion ?—Yes. 2805. Still, you would treat that disemination from your point of view as mitigating your complaint?—It would mitigate our complaint locally. Of course I am speaking purely locally. 2806. The housing difficulty you put forward as being the chief difficulty ?—Yes. 2807. You hear very great complaints about that?— Yes. 2808. Do you find the people complaining much about the working at a lower price?—Our people, do you mean ? 2809. Yes. Do you find much public complaint of the working by the immigrants at a lower price than by the British workman ?-—Considerable complaint. 2810. Of course, as has been pointed out here, a lower price of production produces a lower selling price to the consumer ?—That is true. 2811. Is that benefit recognised at all?—Not by any means, and if it is true that our working classes obtain their goods at cheap rates as the result of these famine prices paid to these foreigners, I aan afraid they get it at a very great sacrifice. 2812. Are the goods that are produced -there sold within the area of their production principally, or are they sent away ?—Mostly sent away. 2813. Therefore your population is not getting the benefit of the cheapness?—No. 2814. It is so diffused that no particular person would probably feel the effect so as to feel gratitude in respect of it ?—No; boots and cheap clothing are (mostly sent abroad. 2815. Now you have spoken about these immigrants' existence here tending to the reduction of wages. I think the prominent trade is the tailoring trade. Can you give me any instance -as to any actual reduction of wages now received by the British workman coin- 6144 pared to what he used to receive ?■—No, I am afraid I Alderman cannot give you any accurate figures in regard to that. j% £. Silver, I only make a general statement, which is borne out- -- very frequently by people I have met. I would also 15 May 1902. allude to this one fact, thaifc in the tailoring trade, especially amongst tailors' cutters, I venture to say there are not twenty English tailors' cutters in thy borough of Stepney ait the present- moment. 2816. Going by (steps you cannot first of all say whether the reduction has been 20 per cent, or any figure?—No, I cannot. 2817. I suppose the want of houses has driven out a good deal of what I call our tradesmen or artisans ?— Yes. 2818. They are bound to go out because they cannot pay the rent?—They are bound to go out. 2819. One witness told us that the feeling was so strong that he fears almost an outbreak. What is your view upon that subject?—I do not think, my Lord,/ it would ever come to. so serious a matter as that, but the feeling is extremely strong, and it certainly has been a matter of surprise to me, and quite as much of ad- miration as surprise, to find how our people, in spite of all this hardship of which I have spoken, have restrained their tempers. I do not think myself it would ever come to a serious outbreak. 2820. You say you are a member of the Sanitary Committee ?—Of the Public Health Committee. 2821. And that you have done very little ?—When I was alluding to that particular committee I was alluding to the housing of the working classes. 2822. In that matter you have done very little?—■ We have done very little. 2823. Why is that Mainly because, unfortunately, our rates have almost a natural tendency to increase; ajnd we, as a committee, are naturally anxious not to add to^ the rateability of the district. In the second place, it is because' no large cheap area has been offered to us for building operations. 2824. I think you have power to acquire land out of your own area?-—Yes. 2825. That power was given lately ?—It is part of the Housing of the Working Classes Act. .2826. You can acquire land outside?—Yes. 2827. Then if you do, you have to secure the migra- tion of the people to a distance ?—We have to secure the migration of the people to a distance, and you will under- stand in the borough of Stepney, as I have explained, only the British people are there who are absolutely com- pelled to live there because of the proximity to their work, and to take them away to Tottenham, or any other place, would very often mean losing them their employment. 2828. Of what officer is it the duty to go to these houses and see they are in a proper sanitary condition Y —The sanitary officers. 2829. We have heard sometimes that they are terrible —the filth of nature, and so> on, collecting. Do you think those officers have been doing their duty ?—With regard to that I may state that at our last meeting of the Public Health Committee of the Stepney borough attention was called to streets I have mentioned—Lang- dale Street, Samuel Street, James Street, and other streets occupied entirely by foreigners, to the filthy con- dition of these streets, and to the garbage that was thrown into them. The sanitary inspector in charge off that particular district, Mr. Woonton, was called before the committee, and said in answer to inquiries that he had not considered, nor did he consider, it any part of his duty :as a sanitary inspector to report what took place m the roadway. He was only concerned with the in- terior of the building. 2830. What view did you take?—The view we took was this: We passed an instruction to the effect that every sanitary inspector shall in future communicate any nuisance of that sort to the street inspector. 2831. Then a,s to the houses, do you think the officers are active in seeing that the evils that ought to be removed are removed ?—In certain districts our in- spectors are extremeiv active. In other districts, and especially the districts inhabited by these foreigners, they are not, unfortuntely, so active as I should like. At the same time, one must admit that the inspector has the same difficulty to deal with as the magistrate has when we ask for a closing order. N 2100 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Alderman 2832. To whom does your inspector report?—To the J, X. Siiv&r. medical officer of health. iKMflv lunv 2833. And the medical officer of (health reports to y whom F—To the Public Health Committee, where a re- port is necessary. 2834. This is all with regard to the Borough Council that you are speaking of?—Yes. 2835. The Borough Councils came into existence! in 1900. Have they been doing good work, and have they been active in looking after sanitary matters in your district ?—-Yes,-1 should be inclined to say in the borough of Stepney that we are far more active than the other vestries were as a sanitary authority. 2836. That refers to the isanitary condition of houses and the action of your inspector P Would you like to see him have any further powers granted to him, or would you like to see the Borough Council have further powers?—Yes, I should like very much indeed to see the power to close houses which are declared to be un- inhabitable given, for instance, to the Bench of magis- trates rather than to the stipendiary. The stipendiary, in the first place, is an extremely busy man, as you can well imagine, and he is not always in a position to view the property. Therefore we find the greatest possible difficulty in securing a closing order at all. 2837. Where there is a stipendiary magistrate, what Bench Would you refer to?—I should suggest an the borough of Stepney the Tower Hamlets Bench. 2838. Do they sit for licensing purposes ?—Yes. There you have a. body of leisured gentlemen of education and considerable local knowledge who would be able to give the time and who would, I believe, take an intelligent interest in this question of insanitary property. 2839. You would not close a house for over-crowding ? Eor what class of objection would you close a house?-— Xargely because of its being unfit for habitation. 2840. Because the drainage was defective?—Yes. 2841. And want of any accommodation?—Yes. 2842. That would not remedy over-crowding of itself ? —No, that would not remedy over-crowding of itself, hut I am extremely anxious myself to see a great many of our slum properties put into fairly habitable condi- tion. 2843. Does that refer to repairs or defects ?—Repairs and defects. 2844. There is no power now to make any such order for repairing these defects?—No. (Mr. Vallance.) I am not conversant with the Sani- tary Acts myself. 2845. (Chairman.) You do not know of anything of that kind ?—No-. 2846. As regards the street regulations, those of course, are under the police ?—Under the Public Health Act. 2847. I mean as regards the market and the coster- mongers' barrows, and so on?—They are under the police. 2848. You passed it over with some hint that the -duty was not properly done. Do you think that that does result from any improper action on the part of the police ?—I ctan simply speak of numerous complaints which have been brought to me. In fact, I can say more than complaints, because I have had specific cases given to me of where policemen have received bribes from these foreigners for being allowed to trade in these market places under conditions under which no British coster would be allowed to trade. 2849. If it is bribery, whether the British man bribed him or the foreigner, it would have the -same effect?— Just ;SO. 2850. What is the offence that you think is allowed to pass unnoticed in consequence of the bribe?—For in- stance, in the police regulations *a certain space (I think it is 4ft.) is required to be left between each coster's stall, but you may go ilnto Samuel Street, and you will not find those 4ft. You will find no space at all between the istals. 2851. What is the advantage of the space of 4ft. ?—To allow a passenger on the footway to get into tiie road. 2852. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And the length of bar- rows is also regulated ?—Yes. 2853. (Chairman.) Your suggestion is that the police do not see these things ?—No, they do not see them. 2854. Of course, it is a serious matter. Has any re- presentation ever been made to the Inspector of Police? —Yes, from our Public Health Committee we have on one or two occasions communicated with the police, and I must sayjthe Chief Commissioner has taken notice, and has sent constables down with fairly good results for a time. 2855. Has there ever been any report of any con- stable ?—No. 2856. I suppose it is difficult to trace?—Very diffi- cult. 2857. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You told Mr. Vallance, I think, that in your view this constant inflow into the East of London should; be stopped, or checked, at all events ?—That is my view. 2858. You said that that would be a great element in improving the conditions of the housing problem?—I maintain this, that until you do start by restricting the stream at its inlet, you can never hope to deal effectively with the evil as it exists. 2859. Supposing financial considerations and other conditions were favourable, as fast as you do anything for the working classes in the East End, that is to a large extent nullified by the stream of people coming in ? I have often compared it to the process of emptying a bath of muddy water; you may keep on emptying it, but as long as you have a tap from which muddy water also comes into the bath, you may have the process of empty- ing, but you will never succeed in emptying it at all. 2860. Then you said to Mr. Vallance that there was no end to it so long as these people keep coming in ?— There can be no end to it. 2861. What you mean is that at present you have got an infinite problem, and if it were checked you would have a finite problem ?—Undou'btedly. 2862. You would then be able to cope with something which you could more or less measure ?—Yes. 2863. Now you have a difficulty which you cannot measure ?—We have a difficulty which we cannot measure. 2864. In fact, the housing problem amounts to this in the East End: that we are taking upon' ourselves not only the burden of housing our own people, but housing the poor from Eastern Europe and other places?-—Not only are we taking on ourselves the burden of our own poor, but also we are not only housing, but educating the children of the poor of Eastern Europe. 2865. And the clearing of slum areas is a hopeless task, because as soon as you clear away one slum area another is occupied ?—Yes. 2866. By overcrowding?—Yes. 2867. And that you attribute largely to the influx from abroad?—Almost entirely. 2868. (Mr. Vallance.) Are you a member of the Assess- ment Committee of the Borough Council?—No, I am not. 2869. Is it within your knowledge that where a house, say, of four rooms is let to one person, that that person is too1 often the house farmer who overcrowds the house ? —I have no douibt that such is the case, but it has not come under my notice. 2870. He would be the occupier who would make the return for the purpose of assessment?—Yes. •2871. And unless the Assessment Committee are on the alert very keenly, ifche rent which he pays, and not the rent which he receives, would be the return ?—Yes, that would be the return. 2872. The rent he pays to the landlord would be the basis of assessment?—Yes. 2873. Unless Ithe Assessment 'Com&nittee obtained knowledge that there was a further letting, an under- letting ?—-Yes. (Chairman.) Of course, with the compound house- holder t would be the head landlord who would pay, and he would compound upon the rent he receives from the tenant. 2874. (Mr. Vallance.) I think in the1 Borough of Stepney there is very little compounding ?—Compound- ing has been adopted throughout the whole of the borough. 2875. Recently?—Yes. (Chairman.) That assessment would not be made ujpou the underletting payment, but lib would be made upon vhe landlord's receipt from his tenant. 2876. (Mr. Vallance.) Yes. If it is based upon theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 101 < Tttturn of the nenfc paid Iby this occupier, then the rates . are not assisted to the extent they would foe if the mide* letting rente were brought into account ?—No, certainxj not. 2877. Assuming that the law enabled the local autho- rity, the Borough -Council, to hold this house-farmer re- sponsible for the condition of things there in the same way as the seller of meat that ia unfit for food—sup posing he were brought within the law in a very draistic way, what would "be the effect of that in your judgment? ----1 should welcome such a measure, and I believe the effect would Ibe lexfcremiely useful, land would do a great deal to mitigate the evils which are complained of. 2878. The principal causes of overcrowding in the East " End of London are the foreign Jews ?—Undoubtedly. 2879. Assuming that the man who receives the rack- . rent, the highest rent for a tenement which is over- - crowded, were held responsible for the condition of that i room, would that ibe a direction of legislation which you think would be effective ?—That would. 2880. {Chairman.) That is what we have been calling the inter-mediate tenant ?—Yes. 2881. He is the man who receives the highest rent ?— "Precisely. 2882. You would not touch the landlord who lets to the tenant, say, at £50 a year?—No, in many cases he is a perfectly innocent party. 2883. (Mr. Vallance.) The landlord' who first lets the Ihouse could not be assumed to have knowledge?—No. 2884. Whereas the person who receives an exorbitant Alderman rent for a room which is overcrowded and improperly «/. L. Silver. let tmay be assumed to have a knowledge?—He must — necessarily have a knowledge. 15 May 1902. 2885. (Chairman.) Just go down in the scale. The man lets a room, say, to A.B., and A.B. may take 8 or 10 people into that room, call them lodges or what you like ?—Yes. 2886. Would you try and deal with him too ?—Why not? 2887. I am afraid you must not ask me. I am asking you ?—He should certainly also 'be made responsible. 2888. Surely that is worthy of consideration ?—It cer- tainly is worthy of consideration, and personally I do not see why that man should not Ibe proceeded against in just the same way. 2889. (Mr. Vallance.) And the effect of such proceed- ings in such cases would bear hardly in the main upon recent immigrants into the district?—It would bear hardly upon them for this reason, that it would make it almost impossible for them to secure the accommoda- tion which they obtain at the present time. 2890. (Chairman.) It bears hard on them in Stepney, because they are the people who are in that condition ?—Yes. 2891. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is the difficulty Which faces you all the time ?—Yes. (The proceedings were adjourned for a short time.) Mr. Alfred Thomas Williams, recalled ; further Examined. Mr. A. T. Williams. 2892. \Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand1 you wis'h to refer to Question 1581 of your previous evidence ?— Yes. His Lordship asked me whether I could point to the names of persons who were customers of the milk dealer I had mentioned to the Commission as an in- . stance of shopkeepers losing their business. I was in- »stancing the case of a milkman whose trade had been . ruined by the district being filled up with aliens, and • it was suggested to me that I should ascertain where the milk trade that he used to do with the British popula- tion had gone, and whether aliens had taken his place, ' because it was naturally suggested they wanted some milk, and why could not he supply them. I replied v~ that a foreign Jew will not deal except with his co- religionists, and I was asked to get the names of those ..foreign milk dealers who had started in the neighbour- hood. I have found out the names of several, who supply milk in the vicinity of this man. There is one next door but one; there is a man of the name of Seeligman at v 96, Oxford-street—that is within a stone's throw ; there is another foreign Jew milk seller of the name of Levy also in Oxford-street, and there is another at 108", • Oxford-street. The name of the man almost next door lb -Schenofsky, and, as a matter of fact, almost every ;;general chandler's shop among the Jewish persuasion -sells milk. They seem to suppty milk as well as othel things. There are other names. There is a man of the • name of Gal'inski ; a man of the name of Sil'berstein ; i a man of the name of Peterkowsky ; a man of the name of Rossen, Who are all in very close proximity to this " milkman whose trade has all gone and whose milk shop is now closed. 2893. That was the shop of Faber?—Yes. 2894. His milk shop is closed ?—Yes, it is all done— ;it is gone; Mrs. Faber, 65, Jubilee-street, is the ad* ' dress. Then, in the wholesale milk trade, some hav^ , gone, and a man of the name of Duboski, in the New- road, seems to supply the whole of these men with milk. 2895. These retailers are supplied by a wholesale man ^called Duboski ?—Yes. 2896. With consequent injury to the English?—Yes, the entire trade in that district has gone, wholesale and - retail. Then I was asked also with regard to another ^ question where I instanced the case of a man who was in a much larger way of business in the leather trade 5 (Question 1582). He had been in business in the East End for a great number of years, and succeeded his " father. In this case all his trade has gone from the neighbourhood, and he has made desperate efforts for • the last eighteen months to try and find some new trade ^outside London, in the suburbs, and so on, but it - seems probable 'that "foe will have to relinquish his efforts in that way and realise what he can before ruin comes. The employees that he has got, who are married men with families, will probably have to turn out.. 2897. You have given us how many he employs?— Yes, he employs about a dozen married people. I did not give the man's name, but I will supply it to the Commission, because it is undesirable under the cir* sums tan ces ,of the case to mention it. He may want to dispose of his business. Then I was also asked to furnish the names of leather sellers near this man. 2898. Competing tradesmen ?—'Yes. Again I have got the names of a good many people—Worsfski is one of them, in Cambridge-road ; Rosengarde, in Oxford-street, and Lubinski, in Whitechapel-road. I should like to add that in the leather trade a great many of the busi- nesses work not only early and late, but seven days a week, and I should suggest that if the Commission should be going down to the East End they can easily ascertain for themselves that the' trade is carried on seven days a week—early and late every day in the week. 2899. Then, in Question 1592, there is a point raised how these people make money? — Yes. The Chairman asked how money was acquired. I remarked at the time that they accumulated money a great deal by extraordinary habits of thrift and their being able to live at an expense at which an English labourer could not possibly exist. But there are other ways in which these Jews make money. They make money, a good many of them, in ways which are hardly very creditable. A great deal of money is lost in bankruptcies by these men. I was very anxious to get the file of the local paper dealing with the boot and shoe trade, because' there is a very interesting case, but it will not be out till to-night. With the permission of the Commission I will put that in evidence. It refers to a German Pole who is a shoemaker. His name is Alexander Pearl—at least that is supposed to be his name. It is another illustration of the great number of cases where these foreigners go under English names. Thiis man has just failed after four years' trading, and he fails for £4,600, with assets £334. Among the items . in the account is -an item of borrowed money, so that evidently someone has assisted this man into business. From that statement it is impossible to say what the result will be, but I should think he will pay his creditors something like Is. in the pound, perhaps less than that, but he is employing a very able lawyer in his bankruptcy, and I am certain t'hat the lawyer will not work without his fees. This is a case of a suc- cessful way of making money apparently. I can give you -another case—and I can give all the names and exaM data** these if necessary—102 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. A. T. a Russian who starts in the shoe trade, and eighteen Williams, months 1 alter he fails for 600L Three ■-years later he fails " — for 2,0001.} and pays 7s. 6d. in-the,pound. A year or two 15 May 1902, later he fails again, and his liabilities are 4,000Z., and """ no offer is made. That man has evidently made some money very quickly and very successfully. I will give a. third case of another Russian shoemaker. This man fails. The creditors have the usual creditors' meeting and ask for the books. His effects are sold up but there are no books forthcoming >at all, .and he pays absolutely no dividend in the pound. That is four years ago. To-day I have the information that he owns house pro- perty in the East End. That is one of the ways. 2900. Are those eases, as far as you are aware, very ^numerous?—'They are very numerous indeed. The boot and shoe trade papers are full of cases of this sort. 2901. Are these taken regularly into the Bankruptcy Court?—Yes. I do not know whether you are aware, but it is rather an expensive thing to make a man a bankrupt. It is far better to accept a very small com- position in the case of a man going bankrupt, because if you actually make him a bankrupt, in the end you will get a great deal less than if you have an arrange- ment with the creditors by which you share whatever there is. 2902. Are there amy records of these arrangements in addition to the cases which are actually taken into the Courts ?—Yes, a great number of them. 2903. Those could be got?—Yes, they could usually be got out of the records of the trade papers. I was going to say the great point is this : that there is a way which is notorious in the boot and shoe trade, by which a igreat many of these men make money. It will obviously be asked how can they keep on getting credit time after time when a man is known to ha^e failed. The . explanation of that, of course, is that when a man fails he does not go to the same lot of creditors again, buit he goes on for a year or eighteen months and pays cash for anything he gets. Then after that, when he has established himself as a man who pays cash, he goes e» proved very likely, that a great number of them get work and remain here. When th*» time comes for them to go on to America they have got an uncertain reception to look forward to if they are not the best class of immigrants, and they may possibly get refused there. It is also to the interest of the agent who has got the money to forward them from London to America, to say to them, "You have got work here; work in America is uncertain; you might even be refused. Why do not you stop where you are ? " If the agent says that, and persuades them to stop, he naturally pockets the fares which have been remitted to him by the Russian agent for the journey from London to America, so it is decidedly to the agent's interest that they should remain here. Then they see that all these stories that are told about the various institutions in London, and fo on, are very good, and they find out from practical experience the generosity of the Jewish funds, because there is no doubt many of these men are supported by the Jewish funds, even if they do go on, until their arrival. It is quite unnecessary to me to say it is generally acknowledged how very generous the Jews are to these* people; in fact, I have heard several poor English Jews complain about the way in which these foreigners are- looked after to their own detriment. I believe there are many instances where, fairly recently, English Jews have seen that the Jewish funds have been terribly taken in by some of these foreigners, and they have naturally felt a great deal of resentment. There was a case some time ago of a foreign Jew who went to the Jewish Board of Guardians with a pitiful tale of desti- tution, saying that his wife was ill, and the brokers, were in, and he was in a terrible state. He was just going to be assisted when somebody suggested sending for his rent-book to see how much he was in arrear. That was sent for, but the wife, who also was a foreigner, and did not know very much English, made a mistake and sent his bank book instead. But these cases come to the notice of the people and get very much talked, aibout in the East End, and it causes a feeling, even among some of the poor English Jews, that some of their claims would get more recognition if these foreigners were not here as a constant drain on the resources. 2906. If there were less people there would be,more- to go round?—Yes. I was dealing with the attractions to the foreigners to come here. Take even this report, which appeared in yesterday's " Times," of & meeting, on the invitation of Sir Samuel Montagu, of delegates representing Jewish communities in London. There it was said that this organisation proposed to proceed in three ways : " To grant loans on mortgage or otherwise to those people who were willing to establish factories-' or workshops where Jews could be employed at regula- tion wages; to grant loans without interest to suitable settlers in certain towns; and to advance to congrega- tions settling in new districts funds for communal, interests such as schools, synagogues, etc." That is a most magnificent scheme, and it is certain to be attrac- tive to everybody of the J ewish persuasion who reads a thing of that sort. ,2907. (Chairman.) Supposing they were assisting Christians, should you object to it then? Strike out the word " Jews," and write " Christians "—what should you say then?—That would be for our own people, would it not? 2900. But you used the word. " Jews " as distinguished from aliens or immigrants?—The greater number of these aliens that we are speaking about in the East End are Jews.- 2909. That refers to all Jews, does it not?—Yes, I suppose so. 2910. Would you object to it if it were Christians ?— The only point I was using this for is to show the attrac- tion of this sort of thing. It does not say foreign J ews- will not participate in it. 2911. It says all Jews. I do not see why people should not be charitable among Jews as well as among. Christians, unless you are positively anti-Semitic and wish to exclude all Jews from this country?—Oh, no, I am not. 2912. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What you are saying,, as I understand it, with regard to the attraction to* these people who come here, is that that is a sort of" instance of the attraction to these people to come. You are not animadverting in any way against the principle of the thing, are you?—'No. I say that anybody will see that this must be an attraction if these advantages- are offered to Jews. 2913. (Chairman.) Including foreigners?—Yes, Eng- lish Jews and foreigners too. 2914. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is it not the fact that each individual who comes here is constantly attracting, others to come ?—Certainly. 2915. Sending for relations, and' so on?—Certainly.. 2916. So that each one who comes tends, at all events, to increase the number?—Yes. 2917. Then I think you have something to say with, regard to Question 1706, the Antoliff Estate?—Yes; I was asked for more information about that. I have had a little plan drawn of the displacement there, which shows the displacement of the English since 1895= (handing in a plan to the Commission). I do not know whether that will enable you to see it any clearer. That,MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 103 was an estate that I alluded to where the neighbourhood liad changed very largely and is still very rapidly changing. The red line on that plan shows the property ■sold by the executors in 1895 and bought by Jews. The property consisted of 79 houses. I have as carefully as possible analysed these. All those (marked in red have been bought by Jews, and mostly by foreign Jews, in 1895. 2918. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What is the name of the .street?—Bromehead Street, Newbold Street, and Ant- •oliff Street are the important ones. There are 19 houses in Bromehead Street, 32 houses in Antcliff Street, 23 houses in Newbold Street, and 5 in Bromehead Road— 79 in all. Not one foreign Jew resided here previously to 1805. These 79 houses were then sold to a number of people, mostly foreign Jews. One of the name of 'Goldberg, of 118, Brick Lane, who was assisted with several others by a syndicate, bought 10 or 11. He raised the rents at once, and then resold them. Several of the old tenants, however, managed to get enough money to acquire their houses. 2019. To acquire them by purchase?—Yes, by pur- chase. But at least 36 of these houses are to-day filled with aliens, and the feeling between these and the re- maining old tenants of the old school is of the bitterest -description ; and perhaps some of the most bitter feel- ing in the East End is to be found in that quarter. 2920. Then with regard to the Census figures and further displacement?—I was asked about the further displacement, and I find that although I said at the beginning of my evidence that I was going to go through. a great number of streets, there was not time then to go through them ; but I should have 'liked to mention some other streets where the British have been displaced and the foreign Jews have now taken their place. In the west ward of the district, I am speaking of Plummer's How, Coke Street, Salford Street, Mulberry Street, Greenfield Street, John Place, and Chapel Place— these are all more or less in an insanitary condition, and crowded with aliens. As illustrating the difficulty of ^getting a conviction even when places are in an insani- tary condition, 14 cases have lately been reported from these streets to the sanitary officer, and only one con- viction has been obtained. 2921. (Chairman.) Which particular district is that? —'That is the west ward of Stepney. 2922. (Major Evans - Gordon.) The Parliamentary division of Stepney?—Yes, I am only dealing with Stepney now. 2923. Stepney as a Parliamentary borough?—Yes. "Then in Rutland Street, both sides from Russell Street to Sidney Street, continuing to Jubilee Street, practically every house contains foreigners. In Sidney Square there are practically no English ; in Bedford Square, .now called Ford Square, rents are all raised, with foreign owners ; Clark Street is not entirely alien, but displacement is rapidly going on, and very shortly all the British will have gone from there. 2924. Do you know whether thiat Clark Street area is part of the Mercer® Company's property?—I am not aware as to that. One of the most important streets in this district is Oxford Street, Stepney. I have had an analysis taken of that street, and out of 91 houses from Bedford Street to Jubilee Street there are only 15 houses of Englishmen or Christians out of the 91 houses ; yet .a very few years ago they were all English. 2925. That is the western portion of Oxford1 Street, ,Stepney ?—Yes, from No. 110 to No. 124; I have ascer- tained,, the rents four years ago were 13s., and now they are 17s. There is another case that I know of there : a man named Coles, he paid 14s. 6d. ; he was given notice that unless he paid an increased rent he would have to go ; then he paid 17s., and very soon after that the rent was raised again, and he was* turned out, and the house is now let at an increased rent. Then Wind- throp Street and two streets near in that district were bought up by a Jew syndicate; all the English were turned out and foreign Jews were put in at exorbitant -rents. One of the very few open spaces in the crowded district on that side of the road is Albert Square, which was lately bought by the London County Council with the, assistance of •the Borough Council for a large sum of money, a great many thousands' of pounds, to be con- verted into an open space. 2926. To be kept as an open space; it was an open space?—It was an open space; but the reason it was bought was because the owner claimed the right to build mpon it. In that square all the British residents have gone, and we went to that enormous, expense to keep j an open space and make a square where the children Williams. could play for the sake of foreign children. I was there --^ at the opening^and in the crowd that was there there 15 May .1902. were very few English. 2927. That is south of the Commercial Road ?—Yes. It is only an interesting fact, but I may say that I stood next to the Mayor of. the district at the opening cere- mony, and I pointed out to him the foreigners going into' the houses near—they were simply swarming in. And there is no doubt that that vast sum of money was expended not for the benefit of British children at al'l, because there are not any in the square now. A typical case of the sort of thing which occurs is this: In Windthrop Street, Mile End, near Brady Street, six years ago they were all English; now 56 out of 60 houses in that street have been bought up and filled with foreigners. 2928. That is Windthrop Street, Mile End ?—Yes. 2929. That is north of the Mile End Road ?—Yes. 2930. That shows a movement northward ?—Yes, gradually. The man who gave me this information has lived for some yearsi in this street, and he finds that all the English are gone, so he is going too, and he is in negotiation with a foreign Jew to obtain £10 key money ; it is near Brady Street. 2931. It is one of those streets off the Mile End Road ? —Yes. 2932. Do you know how far down east it is ?—No, I cannot say exactly. These facts which I have given, of course, represent a great amount of investigation ; and I make the point that they clearly show that the British population is being absolutely ousted by the foreign Jew in that district. 2933. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) ^indthrop Street is marked on my map as containing two years ago between 5 per cent, and 25 per cent, of Jews?—And now it is all the houses except 4—56 out of 60. It is very remarkable how in a short space that has changed. 2934. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We have had evidence here, or it has. been referred to, with regard to' the dis- inclination of insurance companies to take policies from these people, do you know anything about that?—Yes, there is tne very greatest disinclination in the world ; it is almost an impossibility, speaking generally, to get a Russian Jew insured. 2935. From fire ?—Yes. 2936. How do you know that ?—I hgjve been in com- munication with a very great number of men who' are quite in touch with fire insurance. 2937. Officials of fire insurance companies?—Yes, officials of fire insurance offices—I might mentioit several. Take the Imperial Fire Insurance Office: one of the agents to that office told me that he had tried his very, hardest to get some foreign Jews taken, but with- out success. You can get foreign Jews taken by an in- surance company if you like to identify yourself per- sonally in the matter, or if an agent takes a foreign Jew up and recommends him personally himself as a desirable man to his own knowledge. 2938. Does he go surety ?—No*, he is .not actually surety; but an agent soon gets discredited if he puts undesirable people on the books of an insurance com- pany. 2939. If I were to recommend a man, but not accept any financial liability, would that satisfy the insurance company?—I should think a recommendation by any member of this Commission they would be glad to accept; but if I went .and did so it would be a different matter, although possibly I might be able. But, as a general principle, a Polish Jew going up to an insur- ance company in the ordinary way in which you or I should go up if we wanted to insure, and making a pro- position, would not be entertained for a moment. I do not mean to say that they would say to him, " You are a Polish Jew, and we will not take you." What they would say would he, " Where are you '?" " Oh, w« m Cripplegate." "We are very sorry, but we are quite full up in that district." But the principle is that none of the insurance companies, except the Alliance, I (believe—^hey very likely would, but I take it that that is quite an exceptional case'—will insure them. Another agent writes to me : " This ©lass of risk shows disastrous results, and it is. almost impossible to place insurances ; a great proportion of the alien Jews have to go unin- sured." Then I have got some other evidence of a most striking character which I have obtained . rom the agent104 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. A. 1\ to the owner of most of the. property in Cripplegate and Williams. Barbican, which, as you know, twice in a few years has k iwF—QAo srufi'ere much as you please; but your Government is dependent upon people of our race for its finances. You will, I hope, forgive me also if I say that without the brains - and the intellect of our race the English nation would be nowhere. Who are the smartest, the brightest, and the most intelligent men on all your local boards—your Guardian Boards and Councils—but the people of our own race? We dominate your House of Commons; we dominate your daily and weekly press; we shall shortly dominate your local boards and your councils; we are strong enough, powerful enough, and influential y enough to spoil you if need be, as our ancestors spoilt . the Egyptians. Our full power has never yet been put forth against you, but it will, if the necessity arises, and then God help England and the English people." 2948. I think, in justice to the paper I should say it does not pretend that it is expressing any opinion as to the genuineness of it; but it simply says : "A person :. has written us," and the editor heads it, "An advocate of the Alien " ?—I saw the editor of the paper, and I asked him if he could see his way to supplying me with the name of the writer, and he said that he had already, on my applying to him by letter a day or two ago, written to the writer to enquire if he might make his name public; but the writer had not yet given consent, and until he did so he could not give his name. I said : " You can at least tell me if he is a Jew," and he said : " Well, I do not know from my own personal knowledge, but it is a Jewish name, and the letter came to me in a perfectly bond fide way with a great mass of other correspondence, and I have no reason whatever to think that it is anything but a genuine letter, and I will put all the pressure I can to bear on the writer to try and get him to allow his name to be given." 2949. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was not there some other correspondence ?—Yes. When that letter appeared it appears that a man in the East End wrote to the Rev. J. Stern, who is a minister in- the East London Syna- gogue, and pressed him to repudiate in the paper the statements in that letter. Mr. Stern replied by letter, and expressed disapproval, and said that the letter did not represent the feelings of the bulk of his co- religionists. He was again pressed by letter to publicly disavow the sentiments of the letter. Then he wrote and sad there was nothing to add, and he declined to reply to any further communications. 2950. (Chairman.) What is the object of putting this letter in? Do you put this in as the accepted view of all these aliens?—No, I put that letter in to show the way feeling is roused in the East End. 2951. (Lord Rothschild.) The letter does not prove anything at all?—Many hundreds of people have read that letter. 2952. I might just as well put im a letter that "Reynold's Newspaper" published about me. It is rubbish?—It is not our feeling, it is the feeling of working men who do not judge from the same stand- point.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 105 2953. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It caused a great sensa- tion at the time?—I am quite sure it caused a great sensation, and it was sent to me from many quarters at the time. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It was also sent to me from many quarters. 2954. {Chairman.) The letter says such things as tlhese : " You will, I hope, forgive me also if 1 say that without the brains and the intellect of our race "— that is the Jewish race, I suppose?—"the English nation would be nowhere. Who are the smartest, the brightest, and the most intelligent men of all your local Boards—your Guardian Boards and Councils—but the people of our own race? We dominate your House, of Commons; we dominate your daily and weekly Press; we shall shortly dominate your local Boards and your Councils; we are strong enough, powerful enough, and influential enough to spoil you if need be, as our ances- tors spoilt the Egyptians. Our full power lias never yet been put forth against you, but it will if the necessity arises, and then God help England and the English people !" Anybody who wrote that wrote a very foolish letter to stir up public opinion ?—It was only put in to show how the feeling is aroused, and was aroused to my knowledge, over it. That spirit has been freely shown in the East End by word of mouth, and there are plenty of people who can come up and tell you that foreign Jews have said: "This, is going to be our land now in London and the East End, and you can go out— it is going to be our country." I merely put these things an to show the feeling that is existing. These work-people do not think of it in the way we should, but they take a letter of that sort for gospel. 2955. I should like to see the writer of that letter produced?—I do> not .think there is any chance of that. I do not think he will give up his name now. 2956. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Then with regardto the census figures:—His Lordship pulled mo up as to the 18 per. cent, only in Stepney. Of course, thait is not the district that I am talking about—it is the borough. It is far more congested in the district I am talking about, and everybody in the East End who knows any- thing about the census ridicules the returns which are given as representing anything like the foreign popula- tion down there. It has already been pointed out, I think, that children born of foreign parents here are not quoited in the census at all. That must make a difference of 20 per cent, aib least. Taking it at the very least, you ought to add 20 per cent, on to the 18 per cent, for the entire borough, because it seems to me that if I and my wife go to Russia, for two or three years, and we have a child there, that child is. English, and not a Russian. Then why should these alien children not be treated in the same way ? 2057. {Chairman.) Children born here in this country of foreign parents follow the country they are born in, and they are English subjects?—But supposing a child of mine was born while we were staying in Russia for two or three years ? 2958. Never mind about Russian law, ;I am speaking of English law—I do not know what the Russian law is, and I do not suppose you do?—It gives a false im- • pression. 2959. If they have foreign instincts it does, but the legal distinction is right—they are born here, and they are English subjects ?—But it gives a false impression of the number. Then with regard to Question 1731, the statistics show that there are as many as eleven in a room, and yet I understand that one of the enumerators before the Commission said twenty in :a house was the utmost he could find. 2960. How many rooms were there with eleven in them—very few, were there not ?—It is so extraordin- arily difficult to get information of that sort. I sent a man down to a street in the West Ward yesterday to ascertain what was the number in the houses, and between Nos. 28 and 50 in one street—only even num- bers, so that is only half—there were no less than eight houses with between 22 and 31 persons in each. 2961. {Major Evans-Gordon.) How did he get at these figures ?—I did not inquire too particularly, but he said the gentleman who' sent him was on the King's Dinner Committee, and he got information at once as to the number of people in the house. The feeling in the Past End isi that the census.figures are totally inaccurate for these and other reasons. 6144 2962. Have you got any information about the attitude of witnesses who wish to appear here?—Yes, I should Williams. like to say to the Commission on that point that the - difficulty of getting witnesses up before this Commission 1^ May 1902. is very great. From the very first when there was an ~ ! agitation started in the East End to press upon Parlia- ment that these aliens should be kept out, the Jewish Press has always endeavoured to persuade its readers that this was an anti-Jewish, and not an anti-alien, question. 2963. {Chairman.) What constitutes the Jewish Press in your mind ?—The two principal papers are the " Jewish World " and the Jewish Chronicle." They have always taken that line, and they have always attacked the speakers on this point, because of their anti-Jewish, instead of their anti-alien, opposition. There is no speaker whom I have heard speak of any note on any platform who has not laid down the principle that he was not in any way attacking the Jew as a Jew. It was only the aliens. To those of us who have appeared on public platforms on questions of this sort sneer and innuendo have been the common thing. All sorts of things in the Press have been applied to us, and not only to us, but the Borough Council has been attacked too. On February 14th Mr. Stuart Solomon, the mem- ber of Parliament for Whitechapel, invented a new theory, iand he made use of these words : " Overcrowding was not only allowed, but was connived at by the Borough Authority." Now, you have heard from Mr. Silver, and you know what has been done. The Borough Council have put forward in the last year or two every effort that persons could so far as you can see, and with* out putting on a perfect army of inspectors. Then such terms as "mild abuse," "slanderous statements," " unbridled charges," were some of the epithets that have been hurled at those who have spoken on this question. One writer writes with regard to myself (X am not going to maike a point over this—I do not like- to mention myself): " All his perception is through distorted spectacles, and his imagination is as great as his knowledge of the East End is little.'' He then in- vites the "visually-gifted London County Councillor" to make an abject recantation for all the rubbish he- talked at the meeting. 2964. What is that referring to ?—That is referring to a speech on this question dealing with the .evidence- that I have brought before this Commission, and other speeches. 2965. Are they commenting there on the evidence given before this Commission?-—No, they are comment- ing on something stated in public before. Then this writer goes on and deals with Major Gordon for about half a column in the same way. But my point is this, that if the J ewish Press treat us, whom they look upon. as fair .adversaries in this way, what sort of a time will their own co-religionists come in for whom they look upon. as traitors ? A Jew in my office yesterday implored me- not to drag him before the Commission. He said, "I am old, I want to live in peace." Now another one, who will appear before you shortly and who has most im- portant evidence to give, said to me, " I will go before the Commission and tell the truth, but after it is done I think my living will have gone." Now I honour these* men, that in the face of this opposition, and I can imagine what it is, they are coming forward to give' this evidence, and you will have them before you between now and the next few months—men who, bound by the ties of the brotherhood which perhaps is the closest' thing in the world, will yet forget that and will come forward and give evidence which will make them be stamped as traitors to their race, and they will give that under the eye of the head of their race on this Commission. I make this point, that thait is the strongest argument in the whole line of evidence that men like that should come forward against all these other influences, because they are convinced of the evil of these crowds and crowds of aliens. 2966. They are British Jews giving evidence against the aliens?—Yes. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Not only British, but aliens themselves. 2967. {Chairman.) But Jews. I understand you are speaking with a commendable view of the conduct of those people who are Jews, who say they will not be influenced by the bonds of their religion, but who will" tell the truth to us about the aliens ?—Yes, quite so. 2968. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Then there is traques- O106 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. A. T. * Williams. 15 May 1802. tkwiably in your opinion a great fear amongst the Jewish community generally of appearing and. giving ervtudetnioe ?—A very re's! feiar. 2969. And you attribute that to the attitude which has been taken by the Jewish Presis, and do you say aLsio to tihe attitude whliioh has been taken since the Cbmmission has sat?—No, I do niott say that. I say prieviioniisily to that. 2970. (Chairman.) Surely if that is so, we only wish to arrive at the truith, and cannot we get the truth from British subjects whio aire nolt members of the Hebrew persuasion. Is not there a miass' of evidence to be produced whidh will sihow us. exactly the state of affairs?-—We shall produce them, and they will do it, and I shall watch with very great interest (their careers for three or four years afterwards. 2971. But, surely, speaking of the British Christians as distinguished froim Jews, we can (arrive at the truth without fearing that any influence will stop it?—The difficulty, my Lord, is to get the evidence, because how dan I go and tell you about over-criowdinig—hotw can I go iinlto the houls'es wthere there are forty aliens existing ? 2972. But if we get the sanitary inspectors and the medical officers, and get everybody whose duty it is to eee to it—and depend upon it we shall do it before we nave finished this Comimiissiioo—shall we not arrive at the true state of things?1—But you will get tihe moist reliable evidence from Jews and aliens themselves. That waill be the most valuable. 2973. (Lord Bothschild.) You mentioned a charitable origandisiaftiton in your evidence to-dtay: Were- you allud- ing to the Baroness Hirsoh's' bequests, or to something else ?—I was al-ludang to a paragraph in the Times erf yesterday. 2974. You were alluding to a speech Sir Samuel Montague mlade yesterday, in which he sketched out a form of dhariity to remove the Jews from Stepney. Sio that tihe dha/rilty which you were alluding to would not be a magnet to draw them there, but would be a scheme which Sir Samuel Montagu proposed to remove the congestion there. You have quoted it against the Jews?—I am not at aH convinced that the distribu- tion of the Jews in the East End, unless the influx is stopped, would do any good at all. It is exactly what Aldertmian Silver said. You are pouring in at the top a® fast as you are taking out. You are getting •the Jews inito tihe East End at the rate of Hast month's returns, which is about 8,000 or something Ike that, will you take them out as fast ais that ? 2975. (Chairman.) But take the fact. Do you agree with Lord Biottlbsichild's view that thlat speech was delivered in favour of a scheme to take these immi- grants out of Stepney ?—Yes, that was stated publicly. 2976. (Lord Bothschild.) Now a question about Baroness BGirsdh'is bequest. Is there 'any difference in a large sum of money left by Baroness Hirsch to benefit Jews in England, and the large sums of money which have been left by Englishmen and noblemen to benefit poor Englishmen in Paris ?—No, I should think there is no difference. 2977. Are you connected with any insurance com- > pany?—No. 2978. Are you aware that there is the same, if not ,a greater difficulty in insuring Manchester goods in a certain area in the City of London than there may be -with regard to Russian Jews insuring similar goods ;further easit ?—No>, my evidence is all the other way. 2979. Are you not aware that the inhabitants of that district have petitioned both the County Council and the Borough Council to start insurance funds?—I do not know. (Chairman.) Is this in the City of London? 2980. (Lord Bothschild.) Yes, in the City of London —A^ood Street ?—Very probably they may have done so. 2981. And that it is almost an impossibility except at prohibitive rate to insure Manchester goods in that district?—The rates are very high, but it is not impossible to insure them at all for an Englishman. 2982. A great many insurance companies will not take the risk at all. Evidence will be called to show that. How you have mentioned the milk trade ?—Yes. 2983. Are you aware that there is a very large milk dealer at 33, Old Montague Street, of the name of Williams, who does by far the largest trade amongst foreign Jews?—No, I am not. (Chairman.) Is that in Stepney ? 2984. (Lord Bothschild.) Yes?—-Is Williams a Jew? 2985. No, he is not a Jew—he is a Christian. I believe Old Montague (Street is part of Stepney ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is in Wihitechapel, but in believe Old Montague Street is part of Stepney? (Witness.) It is probably not near the woman whose trade I said had been ruined by the surrounding com- petition. 2986. (Lord Bothschild.) You mentioned Lydia Street the other day ?—Yes. 2987. And I think you said that in Lydia Street sixteen houses out of twenty-four aire inhabited by foreigners—66 per cent. ?—Yes, I believe I did. • 2988. You mentioned also Cadiz Street?—Yes. 2989. I do not wish to throw doubts on your informa- tion, or the evidence you gave to the Commission, but your figures differ so much from the School Board returns that the difference is very peculiar?—My figures were obtained by house to house visitation made by a man wiho lives in the street, and knowing almiolst all the people goiing in, from his family seeing them day by day going in each house. 2990. On the 27th March, 1902, there was a house to house visitation for the London School Board, and that giveis the following returns. They state theire are thirty-seven luouseis in Lydia Street, containing fifty- two families—I do not know if these figures are accu- rate, but I give them as the London School Boiard return them. Of these fifteen only are Jews or foreigners, and the other 38 per cent. English or non- Jewsv So you have 25 per cent, instead of 66 per cent. The London School Board give very similar figures for Cadiz Street—also from a house to house visitation. The visitor for the London Sc(bool Boiard is prepared to come here and substantiate his figures'—Mr. Hanner is his name. In Cadiz Stret he says there are sixty-six houses in the street, and there is not a single Jew or foreigner in any of the thirty-five houses on one side. Taking the whole street, it contains seventy-nine families—only 10 per cent, of wihom .are Jews, thus making 12^ per cent, instead of the 70 per cent, given in your evidence. Do you say that is correct?—12^ per cent, of Jews in Cadiz Street, do I understand ? 2991. You, in your evidence, said that in Cadiz Street there were 70 per cent, more aliens?—I under- stand the School Board inspector says 12^ per cent. ? 2992. The London School Board officer says there are sixty-five houses in Cadiz Street, of which in thirty- five on' one side of the street there are no aliens at all, and taking the whole street containing seventy- nine families, only ten are Jews, or foreigners, thus making 12^ per cent, against the 70 per cent, stated by you ?—I will put my informant who made the house to house visitation before the Commission as a witness. (Chairmcm.) This is material, of course, but we have got the main result that it is not disputed that at least 18g per cent, in Sitepney are Jews, and I do not care wihiat street it is in particular. (Lord Bothschild.) Personally, I do not attach very much importance to one street or another, because it . is an acknowledged fact that there is a very large proportion of Jews in Sitepney, and the only reason why I mention it is because evidence of this kind, brought forward in a very hostile spirit, is not brought forward as affecting tihe whole question. I do not blame Mr. Williamis, but if the evidence is false it ought not to have been brought forward. (CKairman.) The abstract proposition we agree upon, but these figures may be put fight. (Witness.) May I say that this is not brought forward in any "very hostile spirit." I take a street; I get a man who lives in the street to go round and ascertain the people who live there, and I give you that return. I fail to see how that can be described as " a very hostile spirit." (Chairman.) We have agreed that the particular street these people are in is very unimportant. We have the fact that there are. 54,000 in Stepney. (Lord Bothschild.) I have nothing else to ask. (Chairman.) We will adjourn now to Monday week, the 26th inst. The Commission have resolved at some early date (we oannolt now fix the exact date) to hoild some sittings in the Borough of Stepney. Arrange- ments will be made for some pliace where the public can be admitted, and where we can hear witnesses. We will also make some investigation of the locality our- selves.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. EIGHTH DAY Monday, 26th May, 1902. present t The Eight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Lord Rothschild. 1 Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. | William Yallance, Esq. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Mr, Zachariah Solomons, called; and Examined. 2993. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where do you live?— 27, B Block, Stepney Green Buildings. 2994. You are a Jew?—Yes. 2995. An English Jew ?—Yes, born in Aldgate in 1871—-in the parish of St. Botolph's. 2996. You have lived in the East End most of your life?—All my life. 2997. What is your occupation?—I am manager of a firm of shoe manufacturers in Stepney. 2998 You have, of course, come in contact with this question of alien immigration since you have been there ?—'Considering I have lived amongst the foreign people all my lifetime, of course I have come in con- nection with them. 2999. How long have you been in the trade ?--I have been in the trade since I was 14 years of age— 17 years in all. 3000. I understand that you are president of a club down there?—Yes, I (have the honour to be the presi- dent of the Stepney Green Tenants' Club, connected with the building.j in Stepney Green. 3001. That is used by foreigners and others?—Yes, by foreigners; English and foreign Jews, and also English Christians. 3002. Will you go on with your evidence with regard to the alien question? Generally, how does it strike you P—If you will permit me I will give you my evidence truthfully, as far as my opinion is concerned, in con- nection with this alien immigration. I have watched the decline of my trade within two or three years of my apprenticeship to the slipper and shoe making trade. 3003. (Chairman.) Leather?—Yes, leather. I have seen the gradual downfall, and its present position I should term to be as low as it possibly could be. I attribute this to the introduction of unskilled labour, which has been derived from the aliens who have just come over. I make no positive assertion that it is either Jew or Christian, because in my evidence I will prove that it is not a religious question. It does not seem to me that because a man is a Jew he works for any the less wages. It seems to be a national sin, and through the circumstances these people find themselves in when they arrive. I have worked for a family of English Jews all my lifetime except on one occasion, when I worked 18 months in two foreign firms. I watched there the system under which these people employed their labour when it is required, and I will try to illustrate to you the position of the trade as far as an English manufacturer is concerned compared with that of a foreign manufacturer. The English manufacturer, as I myself, and as a family of five brothers and one father have done for 60 odd years past, employs none other than skilled mechanics. That is to say, they have had an apprentice occasionally, and he has learned his trade the same as I did myself, so they generally have given their work out to be done to people who are Well able to start the shoe and finish it ready for the wearer; but during those 18 months of experience m those two foreign firms which I told you I was working for, I noticed on one occasion a friend of the first manufacturer I was speaking of came round, and he brought with him a greyheaded old father, and in their 6144 Mr. Z. Solomons. language—of which I know very little, being an English - - Jew—he made some arrangements that the father should ^ May iw) . be instructed m a certain item of the trade. Naturally enough—I would do it for anybody—I felt for this man. The man really had nothing else to do, and I helped to instruct this man, and although this man was not getting paid for his work he put all his mind and soul into what he was learning—and he was a grey-haired man, mind you—and thereby learned a little of the trade. This man had occasion to call upon me to ask me to give him a job about two years after that occasion, and I told him I only employed skilled mechanics who could make a shoe right out. The next case I wish to speak of is a case where I worked for a firm where I dare say without exaggeration 100 to 200 people were employed, the majority of whom were of the alien class. There were some Englishmen among them also, and I watched their teams of workmen. There was not one team nor two, Jbut five or six teams of workmen, with perhaps 12 or 13 sitting in a team, and there was nof a single one amongst those men who could have turned round and said, " Well, I can make a slipper or a shoe by myself." 3004. What does a team mean ?—A team is a bench of men. One man would do the lasting up, and perhaps five or six would be sewing; another man would b° lasting the shoes, preparing them for the finisher. The shoe would then go into the finishers' hands, but each individual man upon that bench would not understand how to do what his next door neighbour was paid to do, proving the fact that he came over here and was> taught to do items of this trade. Now the conditions under which these people work I will speak of directly, but the advantage which the foreign manufacturer has who employs men in this way, against me. is this: I have to pay a man 7s. for making a dozen pair of shoes— and that is not too much, considering he has to work 16 hours a day, and men who are here will assert that what I say is a fact and that they have to work 16 hours a day for 7s., because I cannot afford to pay • any more—in fact, I cannot find any work. It is im- possible to find sufficient to keep them going at that rate. These people will sit down at their employment. for any amount of hours, in fact as long as they can sit, and not earn averagely one half my men earn in the 16 hours. That, I think, proves to you the dis- advantage that I have. I will give you another proof of the disadvantage. I have seen a shoe retailed at the same price as it costs me to manufacture. You might think that is strange. They pay as much for their material as I do, and in fact in one particular case he has to pay more than I do, because he buys in such small quantities, as he has to live from hand to mouth and" cannot get any capital together from the small amount of profit he receives, and the shoes he offers get retailed to people at the same price as it costs me to manufacture. How is this done? To save long arguments afterwards I will give you an instance. He might pay 4d. for the uppers 'and 4d. for the soles—that is 8d. Other necessaries in connection with the shoe might cost him 10d., making Is. -§d. The making attached to that would cost him 7d. That would be 2s. Id., but I have seen those identical shoes retailed at Is. ll|d.—that is to say, put on th© public market for Is. ll^d. How is this done? The sole costs him O 2108 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. Z. the same, and the upper costs him the same, and the Solomons. other things cost him the same, but the advantage is - gained, because I know the people who are making 26 May 1902. these shoes are making them under conditions im- possible for any Englishman, and for the matter of that, under which no foreigner should be allowed to live. It is only natural that I should take a great interest in the reports of this Commission, and I have read Mr. Silver stone's evidence, being a man of the same class as myself, and I thoroughly endorse all he has said, but there is something I should like to say further in connection with the cheap boots and shoes put upc' the market. Let us take the cheap boot and shoe. After all it is only a a. artificial article. It is not a boos and it is not a shoe. It is something -that appears to you to be a boot or a shoe, but they become much dearer in the long run, and I have in your presence men who have occasion to repair boots and shoes, and I would like you to question them, or question anyoouy for the matter of that, as to whether it is possible for those boots or shoes to be repaired once the first cover of leather is gone. JSHo, it is impossible, because there is nothing but paper underneath, so that the cheap shoe becomes a dear one. Then is not it the irony of fate when a man who helps to produce this boot or shoe .earns, as we have evidence to prove, 2s. 6d. a day to keep a wife and family on—when he also wants a pair of boots that he has to go to the cheapest market, but still the money he has earned at the proceeding will not enable him to buy a pair. You see the position. 3005. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You attribute this to the large influx of cheap labour i—Yes, most emphati- cally. 3006. Leaving that question of the shoe trade in which there has, been a great fall, can you tell us about these people coming here, and why they come here ? Will you sketch to us how they come here?—I could certainly give you what I have heard, but if it is pos- sible to hear some of these people themselves it would foe better. I can tell you what I have heard say, but I would rather prefer to give my personal experience alone. We have people here who can sketch that to you, because they were the principal actors in the drama. Therefore, I think it quite unnecessary, unless you want me to tell you all I have heard about it. I should like, if I am not interrupting, to speak upon inter-alien competition—alien against alien. I con- sider, although I know the majority will not think so, that I am doing a service to my race and doing a .service to these people in particular by coming in front of you gentlemen to give my evidence, and as an in- stance of that I will give you, not what I only heard last night—not as the evidence that came in front of me last night, but I give it to you as proving to you that this evidence could be got at any time, and that it is £b general thing. I happened to go last night, about 7 o'clock, requiring a bottle of Bovril, to> an Anglo-Jew —-although I think she was a foreign party—who kept a shop very close to where I live. I said, " I feel so ill and I have got—I used the word ' Beshtellung'— for to-morrow morning; I have got an important en- gagement tor-morrow morning, and I hardly feel able to go up." She said, 11 My husband told me you had taken a great interest in this alien immigration, and I hope you may stop it. And," she said, " you may use this as evidence, if you like. I am obliged to1 keep open -on jSunday night till 12 or past 12." I said, " You can shut if you want to." " No," she said, " I dare not shut. See that shop, and that one, and that one," and she gave me the names of three shops, " they open at -6 in the morning, and they do not close until 1 the next morning." These are absolute facts, mind you. These .same shops also open on Saturday from 9 in the morn- ing until 12, then they close and open again when the Sabbath is terminated, and keep open till 1. On the Sunday they open again at 6 o'clock in the morning, .and close again at a. very late hour Sunday night-- ^rhaps 12 o'clock. Every other day in the week they are open from 6 o'clock in the morning till 1 o'clock next morning. Taking a journey only a few weeks ago I watched this thing, and I found very near every •shop, especially these grocers' shops and chandlers' shops, and such like, open at a very late hour, because it was 12.30 or 12.45 when I was passing through the streets. 3007. That instance you give is an instance of the competition between aliens and aliens?—Yes, exactly. 3008. The pressure ?—Yes, the pressure that one brings upon the other to keep open any hours of the night. 3009. Are those Bovril shops grocers' shops?—Yes, grocers' shops generally, or chandlers' shops. They sell anything, from a bundle of wood to a pickled herring. Now I should like to give you another instance of alien competition. 3010. (Chairman.) Does this occur in all classes of shops or only in this particular class of shops ?—I am talking of the general thing in the East End of London, in Stepney, where I reside. 3011. As far as your observation goes it would refer to all shops?—No; particularly to grocers' shops. 3012. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Miscellaneous shops ?— Yes, miscellaneous shops I should term them. The next instance of alien versus alien you might think strange, especially when these people are governed by ecclesias- tical authorities—that is butchers' shops. About 2\ years ago there was a butcher's shop opened in Red- mond's Road. Redmond's Road is a neighbuurhood with about 20 or 30 shops—10 or 15 on each side, and it is not a market-place—not what I should call a market-place anyhow. A man opened a butcher's shop there, and he was getting a living, I suppose. He must have been, when you hear the further part of my state- ment, Within a few months of his opening somebodv else opened a butcher's shop, and within two years of his opening there there were six butchers' shops opened, and in my own ears these men have complained to me bitterly that it would be one of the best things that could occur if these people were restricted from com- ing over here in the quantities they have been—one complaining against the other. The older one reckons himself privileged to complain because of being the first one there. 3013. (Chairman.) Were the five subsequent butchers alien immigrants ?—All aliens. Now I will give you an instance of a competition in my own particular trade. There were two aliens working for one firm. I am not saying that these two men were Jews at all. There was one man who was employed by a master making work at 8s. per dozen. 3014. (Major Evans - Gordon.) Shoe-making ?—Yes. He naturally, after the same style as the people I employ, took out his dozen or 15 pairs a day, and he was getting a fair living, but somebody steps along to the employer who is employing on that work 6 or 7 men, who are making between them 12 to 18 pairs of shoes per day. This took place about two years ago. 3015. (Chairman.) Who make the 12 or 18 pairs of shoes—how many men?—Two men. One man might perhaps employ another sewer, but this was the general system. One man might have made three dozen, em- ploying 2 or 3 sewers. That is the old system, but a foreigner comes along and he makes overtures to the master of the employer, knowing the man was con- tinually manufacturing these goods, and says, " If you give me the lot I will make them for 6s. 9d. a dozen. 3016. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How is he enabled to do that?—On the same system as I spoke of before, by employing' sewers, unskilled men, to work for him upon the gross he has taken out, and paying them wages much below what the others are working for, he getting a fair parcel out of the difference. 3017. In other words, briefly put, you mean that this man receives 6s. 9d. for a dozen pairs, sweats people under him to make a profit out of them?—Yes. 3018. Your point is, summarising the whole thing, that what enables him to sweat in that way is the con- stant supply of cheap labour which reaches England from abroad ?—Exactly. 3019. (Chairman.) How much can a man who sweats first earn in a day, and how much does the man who is sweated earn in a day?—I will just take time to consider how many men he would have to employ to make that gross. 3020. We want to see how much the men make a day, so as to see whether they can live upon it?—I have reckoned it up and I find they would have to employ 8 unskilled men. 3021. Who would ?—The man that took out the gross of shoes to make. 3022. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How much does he receive for the dozen ?—6s. 9d. That would fetch him 81s. for the gross. He would employ about 6 sewers and 2 finishers, and the 6 sewers would earn, if they were sitting fair hours—14 or 15 hours—4s. to 4s. 6d. per day. 3023. Each of the 6 ?—Yes. That would make it 27s., and the finishers would perhaps earn the same, makingMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 109 : JB men working at 4s. to 4s. 6d. a day. That would bring it out at. 32s. or 36s., leaving him the remaining - amount out of 81s. 3024. Oan the gross be made in a day P—I am giving that man 9 men to make the gross in the day. 3025. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What would he make out of it? 3026. (Chairman.) 81s., minus 34s. ?—81s., minus 36s. 3027. (lLord JRothschild.) That is without paying for the . stuff ?—That is without paying for the room, and also grinding for making these things. 3028. Who would pay for the material?—The man who took the work out. 3020. How much would that come to?—4d. per dozen in this class of work. 3030. That is 4s. ?•—Yes, that is 81s., minus 52s. •3031. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then there is his rent *joi a room?—Yes, I should say a man would make a gross in a fair-sized room in the way they work. 3032. (iChairman.) It is not the point that the inter- mediate man makes too much, but the point is rather - that the men who work make too little?—You under- -stand that this particular item I am giving you is one - of the best paid for articles in the market—a shoe you might isee put in the West End. 3033. What the 'Commission would like to have are "instances of men being underpaid so as not to get fair wages for a fair day's work. Can you give us the .^smallest amount paid to men carrying on this work? ----1 have men here, and I know myself. I have also here a wages book of a man who is present, and you - will find that he is getting work out here at 2s. 6d. per -dozen, and considering the requirements to do that work, - that is to say the expenses attached to it—fire, light- ing, and room—he is working sixteen hours a day, and perhaps earns about 3s. 9d. 3034. (Lord Rothschild.) That is finishing?—Yes. 3035. Putting on the sole ?—No. That is. finishing the • sole after the sole has been already put on. That is -finishing the boot. 3036. (Major Evans^Gordon.) Smoothing the sole?— "Yes. 3037. (Sir Kenelm Digby,) As regards those six men tou have given us, do-they make the whole boot?— Yes, with the master, too—the master lias to work. 3038. (Chairman.) They would get 3s. 9d. a day ?— Yes, there are men liere who would know of instanocs ► of men working and only making 2s. 6d. a day. 3009. Do they w-ork six days a week?—Yes, they da —of course not the Sabbath. 3040. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Whathottre?—Oonsider- : ing the wages they are earning I should say their hour* - would be fully thirteen to fourteen hours a day. 3041. They could not get through the work under that?—No. ar»d that man would have to be fairly ♦ quick. 3042. (Chairman.) In whose shops do they work?— They find their own room. 3043. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is home work?— ~ Yes. 3044. That is work they take home?—Yes. . 3045. Then do you know anything with regard to the » conditions under which these people live ?—Yes. It is not an uncommon thing to walk down the streets and ^ see the private house front windows which are on a level with the street. You can see the bedroom, and the wife cooking or eating, and the children about the - place, and living and working at the same time—work- : ifcLg, living, and sleeping. I could state places, and give you absolute proof that this thing does exist, working - and living and eating in one room. But I know of an instance, and there is a gentleman here who has taken part in it, because he was one of the men employed, - where a man occupied two rooms, and in those two rooms himself, his wife, and his five children lived. ~ He employed two men for home work. They worked - there, and he also lodged a brother and sister. That took place in two rooms, and the amount of rent he paid for those two rooms was 9s. So there is an instance -'■of working, lodging brother and sister, wife, and five * children, and employing two men, all combined in two rooms, and it is so very bad that I would not be sur- prised if people cited cases even worse than that. 3046. Can you tell us where that is?—I cannot tell you where that is, but one of the witnesses can tell you where it is. 3047. And give us the address?—Yes. 3048. With regard to- the condition of affairs gener- ally in the East End, do you say that this influx of foreigners from abroad has a lowering effect upon the standard of living, generally, there t—Yes, it has lowered the standard. 3049. You have seen a general lowering in your eat* perience?—Yes. 3050. A lowering of the general standard of life?— Yes. 3051. Would you say it has resulted also in a great increase of rents ?—Yes, I am positive of that. 3052. And the lowness of wages and so forth obliges the people to crowd into the houses to a certain extent ? —Exactly. 3053. Should you say there was a bad feeling in the East End about this question ; what would you say the feeling was?—I might say this. Of course I know plenty of people in my own position, and plenty of foreign Jews themselves who would welcome this restric- tion, and who would come here to give you evidence, and to prove to you they would welcome it, but there is a great bar. There was a red herring drawn across the land by saying that this was done with a sort of religious bias, and. fearing, as they do, that they are likely to be hustled from one place to another—living under Jewish landlords, or working under Jewish em- ployers, fearing some bad results, they are afraid to come, but my fear is not in that direction ,* I fear a great responsibility is hanging over the heads of this Com- mission, and that if something is not done, I, amongst all of us—amongst all Jews—have to fear, because the feeling then will be much bitterer than what it is sup posed to be—what it was claimed to be by the other side when first this matter was talked about. 3054. (Chairman.) Who are the other side?—Those people who are not in favour of restriction—the Press in particular. 3055. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say the desire for restriction is by no means confined to the Christian population ?—No. 3056. You say that the aliens themselves, and the resident Jewish population also suffer ?—All that I have mixed with, and all that I have spoken to, seemed to agree with me that if this was not a religious ques- tion, by all means restriction, and as quick as you like. 3057. Now there is a feeling, you say, against these people coming up and giving their names. What do you attribute that to? They think they may suffer some evil results ?—They fancy so ; I do not. 3058. I think that is all I have to ask?—I should like to make a further statement in connection with rent and key money. I should like to touch upon rent. I have in my possession a rent-book belonging to a person who started occupation of a place in 1894, and paid the rent regularly, except that they went back 2s.. or 3s. one week, and they paid it the next, from 1894 until the 23rd of March, 1898. 3059. What was the rent at that time?—10s. per week. Between the 23rd and 30th evidently the house was sold, and on the Monday morning, instead of the usual landlord coming, somebody else came, and he presented them with this : This is a notice to quit, signed by a certified bailiff ; but at the bottom of the notice to quit it says, " I further give you notice that from and after the 30th day of May, 1898, your rent will be 16s. per week." He was an excellent tenant, and his landlord had no complaint to make against him, and on the 30th he came for his rent and pre- sented this. You will find the rent-book will bear out the statement of this notice to quit, and that the tenant stayed one week further, and managed to get out of it by paying 14s. 3060. (Chairman.) What was the original rent?— Ten shillings. 3061. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That was raised to 16s. in a week?—Yes. 3062. Now what induces these people to come over? Does one ask the other?—I never attracted anybody here, and that is evidence I should like to be given by one of the witnesses who follows me, because he can Mr. Z. Solomons. 26 May 1902110 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. Z. give you absolute proof of that. I might say I brought Solomons, this book as an instance of our friends the aliens in the • m '""'"i'qao London. It is often the case that men are ' vay * deprived of their wages. It is instanced here. After working all the week a man received 10s. and his employer ran away. That is not an individual case. It often occurs—often and often. In fact there are men here whom it has occurred to even in their time four or five times. 3063. A man employs another man and then runs away before lie pays him ?—Yes. 3064. What does that book show?—It shows a man received 10s. cash and he earned 19s. 4d. 3066. And he got 10s. ?—The employer paid 10s., and * m away with the other 9s. 4d. 3066. Is that a boot employer?—Yes. 3067. Does that sort of thing often happen ?—Often. I know of plenty^ of other instances myself . As regards key-money, I said I would like to give you some evi- dence, although I do not think it requires any evi- dence of mine, because it is no secret down our way at all, and I would suggest to the Commission that they should ask any of those gentlemen who follow in my wake, who are of a different opinion from what I am, to deny such a thing does exist. 3068. That is admitted?—Just one other point. In reading about the Commission and reading arguments in favour of non-restriction, I hear there have been trades introduced. Now it happens that the most im- portant trade introduced is mantle-making, and i hap- pen < to have a brother-in-law working at mantle- making, and the condition of the trade is so very bad that I, as an Englishman, would have felt very much obliged if they had never introduced it. 3069. You have a brother-in-law engaged in the mantle-making trade?—Yes, and he can only get his living by employing somebody else to do hard work— unskilled men to do the rough work, so that he can get a living as a skilled mechanic. If he had to get a Miring on his own hands as a skilled mechanic he could not get his living. : 3070. These constant arrivals from abroad have placed it in the power of the employer to keep the rate of was;es always down?—Exactly so. I will give you an instance / of that. I find in introducing my samples in the or- dinary way this season, that there is certain work I have endeavoured to place upon the market, and unless I turn out some of my English employees and employ foreigners, of whom I am positive I can obtain plenty, I shall have to forego getting up the article altogether. 3071. You will have to dismiss these men?—Yes. 3072. You have got certain men in your employ now, when there is work for them to do, but you would have to dismiss these men and employ this very cheap un- skilled labour if you want to market that stuff at all ?— Yes, that is so. In speaking of the introduction of trades, I should like to refer you to a trade they have done away with altogether. I am not in the clothes business, but I have the pleasure of saying all my family were in it. They were the old clothes' men, the general trade of the old English Jew, and they all got a very fair living, and there was one spot which is well known I daresay to many gentlemen in this place— the Cloth Fair, very near Houndsditch, where there were thousands of garments traded with daily, and now, to give you an idea that they have crippled a calling or trade entirely, that Cloth Fair is for sale, proving that there is no more requirement for it. Why ? you might ask. I will tell you—because they are putting trousers upon the market at Is. 9d. per pair, or a suit of clothes for 7s. 6d. I might say one good second-hand pair of trousers, as far as my opinion is concerned, would last three pairs of these so-called cheap articles ; at Is. 9d., at which they are retailed. 3073. Are they produced owing to their being able to sweat the people they employ, and the long hours they work ?—It is impossible to1 produce a pair any other way. The cloth, however bad it is, must cost at least lOd. or lid. 3074. Therefore to produce that pair of trousers you must sweat, and consequently you have all the other conditions attached to it?—Exactly. 3075. Is there anything you would like to add to what you have said ?-—There was something further I should like to say, and that is in connection with my own par- ticular trade. To give you an idea how low things are in it, there is a gentleman in Whitechapel who is looked upon as one of the most charitable and one of the most- religious men in the whole Jewish community, so far~ as Whitechapel is concerned, and he has got a very large boot and shoe firm, and evidently he instructed one of ' his managers or foremen, as the case might be, because* when a man asked him for -employment, the question that was put to the man was, " Are you married ?" The man said, "What is that to do with the case? I want work. Well, I iam married; perhaps that will... give me an opportunity of getting more work." " No ; we cannot employ a married man." "Why not?" " Because we cannot pay a married man sufficient enough for him to keep his wife and family." He said,. "Well, perhaps you do not know really my liabilities, what I require. What do you pay ?" "We pay 17s. a > week." Of course*, it was impossible for that man, to live, and to pay 7s. 6d. a week for rent, which is a very low price indeed. I will take the opportunity of saying.; that that is about the best place you can live in at Stepney, where this man lives; and he had to pay 7s. 6d. for his rent, and that is very cheap for Stepney way, considering the accommodation you get for your 7s. 6d. He said, " No ; that is impossible ; I cannot work for - that." The man took the trouble to see whom this generous, good-hearted man employed. He found out he was employing men who, although a foreigner him* self, he knew and could see could not speak a word of * English, and knew they were all late arrivals from foreign ports. So that gives you further proof that even a man who wants to do good cannot do' good. The man's name I would be pleased to write, and hid lordship, Lord Rothschild, would know the man's nam© * well. But still, that man, wishing to do good, cannot employ a married man because of the conditions under - which he has to compete with other people. Therefore - my last appeal to you is this : I come here honestly and fearlessly, although I know I am not pleasing the - community at large ; although I know what position I am placing myself in, still I fearlessly say that this restriction should take place; something should be done, and must be done if you want to allay some- thing more serious occurring in the future. (See 4714.) 3076. (Lord Bothschild.) I think you mentioned a very - charitable man in Whitechapel. Will you give his name ?—I will give it in writing. 3077. (Chairman.) If I had been spoken of as you i have spoken of him, I should like my name to be men- tioned ?—I do not see the objection. Why should I object ? Mr. Weber. 3078. (Lord Bothschild.) Mr. Weber has offered to give evidence on the boot and shoe trade in opposition to your evidence. I thought it was he. Are not you ... the foreman manager of Mr. Phillips, who carries on a boot and shoe trade ?—I did not sa^ so. 3079. I thought you were ?—I decline to answer thei- question. There are about a dozen Phillips's in Step- ney. 3080. You decline to say whose business you manage ? " —'Decidedly. I do not think that is any difference to you whether I do mention it or not. It is quite sufficient if I tell you bond fide I am a manager of a factory. 3081. Would you mind mentioning the names of the- two foreigners who employed you for a short time? You referred to two aliens who gave you work, which you did not appreciate ?—I did not say I did not appre- ciate the work ; it suited me at the time, because I had got nothing else to do. 3082. You will not give their names, either ?—I do « not wish to give their names. 3083. You say the boot trade has declined generally ? —Absolutely ; in the East End of London I am referring to. 3084. We are only talking about the East End of ' London. Would you mind telling the Commission what sort of boots and how many kinds of boots you make in your manufactory, wherever you are em- ployed?—From 1,000 to 1,400 pairs of shoes per week. 3085. I did not mean the number, but what particu- - lar kind. Are they all kinds, or one kind ?•—About 30 • or 40 different kinds. 3086. I suppose you are quite aware of the great com- petition for town-made goods—that is what you call yours 1—Ours are town-made goods. 3087. Are American goods in competition ?—There is >MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ill 310 competition with our trade or my trade. I have raiever yet met an American article to take the place ot ~=a shoe I make, or slippers, and nobody else has ever met one. 3088. The public prefer them ?—The public cannot prefer something they do not see. They see no American --article to take the place of the shoe o — duced in the same way as they were in the olden times. 26 Ma^02- They get a gross of soles with a gross of uppers, and ' come .tiome; one man, who only generally knows how to last the shoe, lasts the shoe, and they all get fed like a lot of hungry dogs hungry for the work. I have seen it in one of those firms I worked for, eager to get that penny, or five farthings, or three halfpence ; that is the sewers. , I have watched men sit opposite to one another, working for all they were worth ; one, I am sorry to say, almost gone blinct with his work, and the other in galloping consumption. These are facts. Then they get the work, and these so-called sewers, who know nothing whatever of the lasting up, sew that work. Now they are sewn, and they turn and hammer them to form them into the first shape. 3122. {Major Evam,s-Gordon.) Then they turn them inside out?—Yes. Then it goes into the hands of the that used to be a cow-driver—'he is called the laster in. He is instructed in that. The other people do not know anything at all1 about that. Now it goes to the (heeler, Neither tthe laster in nor the heeler know anything of this part. Be is instructed in heel- ing. Then it will go1 to the knifer, who will do the .knifing. Eventually it goes to the hands of the finisher; so there are a lot of unskilled men who have been instructed in (certain items of the trade who could gradually produce the ;shoe that the one man used to do. 3123.{Lord Rothschild.) The Commission may take it from you, I suppose, that formerly when a boot or slipper was made it was made by a man who knew every detail ?—Exactly. 3124. (Major Evcms-Gordon.) Except the uppers?— Yes. . 3125. (Lord Rothschild.) "Which were then and are gfcill cut by machinery?—Yes. Of course I tell you there may have been cases twenty or thirty or forty years >ago when an occasional man was employed as a sewer who was not perhaps intellectual enough to know his trade. That is an occasional case. 3126. We are not talking about occasional cases?— That was only an occasional case. 3127. Now, at the present moment, every part of the shoe or slipper is made by a different person ?—Down eastwards there is a lot of the work got up that way. That is the general thing in my place. For instance, there are skilled mechanics working. 3128. I am talking of the general thing. You affirm that the alien or Englishman who does part of the sub- division is an unskilled workman, because he can only sew or do part of the work ?—I claim him to be an unskilled man. 3129. If your argument is correct I think that would apply to all tradesl now where there is sub-division of labour?.—I have not got so much to say about employ- ment of unskilled mechanics—what I speak of are the -wages they get the shoe produced for by employing un- skilled mechanics. 3130. Could you tell the Commission what a boot- maker used to earn formerly when he had to make the whole boot ?—The general wages formerly, working ordinary hours, would be 35s. per week. 3131. I think in your evidence you said that a man had earned 35s. as a bootmaker who was swindled by his employer?—I corrected that mistake at the time. I thought it was both sides of the page I had to reckon, but he only earned 19s. lOd. really. It was a mistake. 3132. I suppose you are aware a great many people wear leather boots now who formerly had to wear cloth boots and second-hand ones ?—Yes, but down eastwards , they did not wear any boots at all. ■< 3133. I suppose you will acknowledge, taking boots, in the whole trade they are much cheaper now than they used to be formerly ?—I do not understand the argument about woollen boots or cloth boots or that "kind of boots. If you are going back to the people who used to wear cloth boots in times gone ^ those articles were better produced and better prepared than what they are now, and would cost more money than the leather shoes made to-day. !' 3134. You will acknowledge boots are cheaper than , they used to be ?—Most decidedly. Unfortunately they s are too cheap. Proceedings were adjourned for a short time. 3135. {Chairman.) When is it that you say the trade began to alter on account of this alien immigration ?r —My own personal experience takes me back about 13 or 14 years ago. 3136. The decline commenced then?—It commenced then. 3137. Has it been sensibly increasing in its effect ever since?—Thirteen or fourteen years ago we should not have had much to complain about, but gradually it has gone on, and now it seems to be rushing at us during this last four or five years. 3138. Is it going on increasing?—Yes, decidedly. It,., looks like increasing for ever under the present condi- tions. 3139. I do not know whether we can get like things - to compare, because the incidents of labour appear to- be different, but take 13 years ago. How much could a man in your trade—the slipper trade—fairly earn 13 years ago?1—35s., or between 33s. and 35s. to be correct. 3140. Is that piece-work or day-work?—They were • giving out piece-work. 3141. How many hours a day would he have to work...... to get 35s. ?—A quick man, say nine hours, and a slow man 12 hours to 13 hours. 3142. May we take an average of about 10 hours ?---- No, I would sooner put the average at about 11 hours. 3143. He coulid earn 35s. a day at 11 hours, pro- ducing slippers?—Yes. 3144- Did he work all through?—Yes, that was the - • man who made the slipper right throughout, 3145. About how many slippjers would he produce in .. the week?—He would produce about five dozen. 3146. Sixty slippers in the week?—Yes. 3147. Sixty slippers would be produced for 35s. 1—■ Yes. 3148. Can you give me the cost of material ?—The • cost of material is all according to the kind of shoe. 3149. We are talking of slippers?—What kind of slipper ? 3150. Leather. I am afraid that is the only par- - ticular I can give you?—You can say leather if,you. please, but there are qualities of leather. We have an upper that will cost us 14d. in the cut or 3^d. in the * cut. 3151. Take your best article first?-—We will take, for instance, men's best slipper. If I put down 14d., that would include the better quality of leather that is used in the best slipper. 3152. Then it would be 7d. for the labour, and with , the material Is. 9d. ?—-No, because with that high-class shoe we pay more for the labour. Do you want the cost of the shoe that we pay 7d. a pair to make? Is that what you want ? 3153. Yes. I want first the price of the material? —Between 6^d. and 7d. 3154. Call it 7d. That makes 14d. 'altogether. What would that sell for on the market ?—We have got something further to state than that. There is the- cost of cutting the upper. 3155. I was taking labour all through?—Oh, no. 3156. You do not understand n%e. I asked' if the man made the slipper all through, and you said « Yes " ?—Apart from the upper, as I explained earlier - in the day. 3157. I am asking what a man would earn making it all through. What is the cost of labour for, making it all through ? Add the cutting of the upper, if you i like ?—It is a most difficult thing to get at for one pair of shoes. It will take some little time. 3158. I 'ami taking it on the whole system 14 years ago, where men worked mostly at any rate throughout; the whole slipper?—9s. 9d. per dozen, or 9fd. per pair. 3159. What does that include?—-Making, fitting up, clicking, and operating the upper machines. 3160. That is labour?—Yes. 3161. 9|d. ?—Yes. 3162. "Now for the material ?—The material would be, to be sure, 13s. for the uppers per dozen, 3s. 6d. for lining per dozen, top-binding 6d. per dozen, sole leather * 5s. 6d. per dozen, including the heel, grindery 6d., ware- housing, discount, and carriage Is. 6d.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. II 3163. That is as near as possible 24s. 6d. per dozen ? —Yes, not including tlie make. 3164. Call it 24s., and call the make lOd., that would be 2s. lOd. each pair of slippers ?—Yes. 3165. What were they selling for ?—I was not selling articles then, and I can only give you hearsay from evidence of people who did manufacture at that time. They would get anything between 3s. 3d. and 3s. 6d., and in some cases as far as 4s. ; but to make an average price, say 3s. 6d. per pair, selling them to wholesale buyers, not to retail houses, but to wholesale factors. 3166. Do you know what the retail purchaser was getting those slippers for?—He would get those shoes for 4s. to 4s. lid., or say 4s. to 5s. 3167. Call it 4s. 6d. Yes. 3168. That is what was occurring before this immi- gration came into play?—Of course, immigration did take place before, but it was felt so much. 3169. Now take what it is at the present time. In the first place, do you get the same quality now?—We can get the same quality in stuffs, if it is required, ac- cording to the price of leathers, and such like. 3170. What is the equivalent for the labour for which you used to pay 9Jd. ?—Under this present system, of which I am complaining, do you mean ? 3171. Yes?—They would get the shoe produced on an average for 4s. 6d. 3172. Is that 4s. 6d. per dozen?—Yes; they would get the shoe produced at that. Instead of paying for the fitting up 6d., they pay 2^d., leaving a margin of 3£d. Some places will pay 2s., and some places will pay 2s. 9d. For clicking, instead of paying 9d. they pay anything from 5d. to 7d., so I shall call it 6d., and for machining the very most I could put down is Is. So the difference of making is 6s. 2^d. as against 9s. yd. 3173. 6s. 2^d. will be about 6^d. each?—Yes. 3174. As against 9fd. ?—Yes. 3175. Now, can you give me the material?—If it was the same shoe, the material would cost the same. 3176. That was 2s. ?—The material would cost 2s. 3177. That would be 2s. 6^d. as against the former figure. What is that selling at now?—The 2s. 6d. article is selling for 2s. lid, in shops. 3178. It is 2s. 6^d., against 2s. lOd. in olden times, so that it is only a reduction of 3fd- ?—Yes; but the reduction is in one item. 3179. You have taken the material as being the same ? —Yes ; and the reduction is in the item of making, and not so much in machining. 3180. They take it out of the workmen, according to you ?—Yes. 3181. What is the reduction in price to the public ? You gave it as 3s. 6d. wholesale and 4s. 6d. retail. Now, at 2s. 6^d., who is getting the benefit?—The public to a certain extent gets the benefit of this par- ticular shoe. 3182. Can you translate the words " certain extent" ? You mean, it is selling cheaper?—It is selling cheaper in some instances. You asked me as to the better class of goods, but there are very few of those better class of goods produced now. You will find the better class of goods were generally got up in the East End of London. These classes of goods are not made in the East End of London at all now. We have lost this class of goods. 3183. What has been the falling off in the price of the cheap class of articles ?—An, article that 12 years ago would be selling for 4s. we are now selling for from 2s. 6d. to 2s. lid. 3184. Are those cheap classes of goods?—Yes. 3185. These which you gave us, which you said were good, were selling at 3s. 6d. wholesale and 4s. 6d. retail?—What I wish to show you, and it is the only thing I can possibly show you, is this, because I have that the whole reduction in the price of the shoe is felt and the whole reduction in the price of the shoe is felt by the man that makes them. 3186. That is not the point I want. You are speaking of the cheap class of goods. You say you have lost the better class. In the cheap class of goods what has been the reduction of price to the public between now and 6144. 10 years ago ?—It is a difficult question, because there Mr. Z. are fancy prices. In some cases the man might be Solomons. putting a shoe on the market at absolutely the same --- price as 13 years ago, but the general rule is that they nay muz» are selling a shoe for 2s. lid. which they did sell for 4s. 3187. That is 25' per cent. off. Do you think it an evil that the public should get the benefit of that ?—I feel it is an evil when the men who produce them are the sufferers by it. 3188. I will not give any opinion upon it now, but you object to cheap production if the labourer who pro- duces gets less wages ?—Exactly. What I wish to ex- plain is this : These cheap articles that are being put upon the market are not as good as they were then. 3189. I was asking for the same quality of article. You say you are now producing the inferior class. Were inferior classes of articles produced in former times at all ?—Most decidedly. 3190. I want the comparison?—I will give it in my own trade in one article. A shoe now being sold for ll^d. was sold 13 years ago, when I was apprenticed, for Is. 5d. to wholesale factors. 3191. There is 6d. difference ?—Yes. In some cases it is greater and in some instances it is smaller. 3192. Do you regard it as a benefit to the community that a man who is only in a position to purchase a cheap article should obtain it at a cheaper price?—I again repeat my statement that I do< not regard any- thing as a benefit to the public when thousands are perhaps starving by producing that thing. Surely it is only natural that I, as one of the producers of this particular article, should say so. How ca.n I say the public aie receiving a benefit at my life's blood ? 3193v As thp price- decreases, dto not you find that the production m bulk increases ? There is more demand for the cheap article than when the price is high ?—No. 3194. Why not ?—Because we go back to the old argument that if men are earning small wages, they are satisfied to- find bread without purchasing articles of apparel, and therefore there is the falling off of the trade. 3195. It is not only the men who produce the article that wear it. These boots and slippers are worn by the whole community?—Then we have the rest of the com- munity who are producing these cheap articles. 3196. I am separating them. You really must take the two sides of the account. If a man can get these slippers for Is. instead of Is. 6d., is not there a greater consumption of the cheaper article than there would be of the dearer one?—I should not like to say that. 3197. Do you ask us to think that there is not a greater consumption of cheaper articles of the same quality than dearer ones? It is no good putting your case on a wrong basis. Surely you must admit that ?— As far as I am concerned, we are producing more slip- pers now than ever we did, and we are obliged to, but we are no better off by producing the quantity. n°t f but if a man can get two pairs of boots instead of one, he is better off ?—If I was a - clerk, say, in a City office, and I wanted a pair of slippers, which 12 years ago I had to pay 2s. for, and I could get the same thing now for Is. 3d., it would be wrong of me to say I did not gain an advantage. Of course I should. 3199. These things have to be considered. You have to consider that the community is getting an advantage by being able to get more of the same goods, or rather, getting the same quantity at a lesser price. You regard the producers' interests as being the chief considera- tion ? I say so, from my point of view. I am bound to say so. 3200. That is very natural. You are a producer your- self and you put your own case forward. Now just a word or two more. You said you have gone for restric- tion. What is the restriction that you practically suggest should be employed, or rather, what are the means of restriction?—That is taking me to be some- thing better than I consider myself. perhaps not better than we consider you? ■~l will tell you what I should like to see. I should like to see some legislation to stop people comma- here who are not skilled mechanics and who know no*trade I should like to see some legislation that people who 1-114 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. Z, are known to be of bad character should be stopped, Solomons, -and, furthermore, diseased persons and such like o tut- persons not of proper physique, and such as that. I *3 May 1902. have nothing to fear if only skilled mechanics are ~ allowed to come, because even although they are ex- ploited in the first few months they are here, they Are bound to find their level. They are bound to feel, " I should be getting more than this," and as soon as they begin to know where they are, if they are clever enough' to know how to make a shoe or a cabinet, as the case may be, they would soon find out the value of their labour, but these people who know nothing are the people I should say legislation should stop. 3202. Do I understand you, at the port of entry, would stop all persons who are foreigners who are un- skilled labourers, and I suppose you must go on td say who have no means ?—No visible means of existence. 3203. I was going to say no means of supporting themselves without some labour, and also who are not in good health?—But in good health or of good character, 3204. You would want them to produce evidence Of good character and stand medical examination?— Exactly. 3205. You do not do that only in the interest of the boot and shoe trade? -No, in the interest of the entire country. 3206. If a man came here and said he was going to be an .agricultural labourer, and was going to live in a sparsely populated district, you would not let Eim in ? —No, if there was proof that there was not sufficient work for the agricultural labourers we have got. 3207. You have spoken of the boot and shoe trade, where there is great competition, but according to your definition you would keep out the agricultural labourer who was going to Dorsetshire or Wiltshire, where there is a great demand for labourers; or would you let him in?—If he was an agricultural labourer and there was any demand for agricultural labourers, I would by all means let him come in. 3208. There is such a demand ?—I am pleased to hear someone is doing well. 3209. Your formula is a little broad as you first put it. You would let a man come into any trade where it would not push out other people?—My contention is this—I would stop people who are not skilled men who had no visible, means of existence who could not sup- port , themselves. 3210. I am putting to you the case of a mere labour- ing hand who, can do agricultural work. No doubt there is a great demand for agricultural labour at present, and it cannot be got, Would you shut him, out?—If he was an agricultural labourer where he came from I would consider him skilled, whether it is in agriculture or anything else. 3211. Take a, man who says he can dig and that is all. That is not a skilled artisan. Would you let him in or not?—You put it in such a peculiar way that I really cannot answer. I could not discuss that matter. You might as well speak French to me. I do not under • stand what you would call an unskilled labourer. X should reckon a man who would know how to grow a good carrot was a skilled artisan. 3212. I fancy you are rather seeking to protect a trade, and in order to do it you have extended your formula of prohibition to a rather broader basfs than you would naturally do. However, I will not press it further. You really do not wish that the artisan of this country should have the comoetition of the artisan of another country ?—I do not say that. I do not want the artisan of this country to be competed out of exist- ence by the introduction of unskilled men from other countries. 3213. I think you are right in your correction, but after the man has come in as an unskilled person, suppose he learns to be skilled ?—But I would not let him come in to learn, because while he is learning we are feeling the disadvantage. 3214. You apply that to all trades?—-All the prin- cipal trades in which the foreigner is employed. 3215. You do not apply it to all trades?—Not to electrical engineers, but I do apply it to such trades as . the boot trade and cabinet makers, and mantle makers and such like. 3216. Have you any knowledge at all of the want of houses in the East End, and that there has been of late years overcrowding?—Yes. 3217. What is your definition of the East End ? Do you confine that expression to Stepney and White- chapel?—I would confine it now to Stepney proper. That includes Whitechapel and all round. 3218. {Major Evans-Gordon.) The municipal borough of Stepney?—Yes. 3219. (CJiairmcm.) Of course you know the popula- tion has increased very much in 10 years ?—It looks very much like it to me. 3220. We know it has from the Census. Houses have not increased in number, and the natural consequence must be as the population has increased that they must be living in a smaller number of rooms ?—The houses have not decreased so much as you say. Take the buildings of which I am a tenant. There were 16 houses where 16 families lived. Those old wooden shanties were pulled down for these buildings, and there were 168 tenements placed up in the place of them—first-class tenements for 168 families, com- prising at least two rooms, in some cases four rooms, and in about 12 or 15 cases three rooms. In these 168 tenements, although 16 English families were dis- placed, there are only three English families living there now. They have taken away property and ousted 16 families, but still there are only three English families now living there. That shows that although property has increased there, they have still displaced the Englishman. 3221. There have been a great many alien immigrants coming into Stepney. Wherever there has been an in- crease of population throughout the metropolis in- crease of house rent has taken place ?—I do not know about any ^ther part, but if it is increasing the saun- as it is in Stepney, 'I fancy there would have been a riot before now. 3222. Now about this key money. Have you ever known a time when there was not key money to some extent paid in Stepney?—Yes, I do. 3223. When do you say key money commenced ?— At all events I can recollect it for 14 years, but I can tell you my old grandfather, who moved from Middlesex Street, on the clearing of that area, down to Mile End, got an excellent house of six rooms in an excellent turning for 12s. per week, and he paid nothing for key money. Since then, I might tell you, as an instance of the last occupation, they lived in the house for something like 19 or 20 years, and they were forced out. Although my grandfather died and left 'his two orphan daughters in the place, they were abso- lutely forced out by continual demand for rent. It was increasing and increasing, and the people who came in paid £15 for the key. 3224. Where was that house?—Lesna Street, Mile End. 3225. Does that come within Stepney ?—Yes. 3226. I have got a letter here saying it has existed for more than 50 years. You do not say it has not existed, although you give an instance where it did not operate. Has it anything to do with fixtures?— You have hit the point at once; 50 years ago it .might have existed, and more likely than not it did exist, but then it was for fixtures. 3227. Has it nothing to do with fixtures now at all ? —There is very little thought about fixtures now. They might leave you an odd bit of oilcloth or a bit of gas-pipe, but in more cases than not there is nothing left at all ; but the general thing is, and it is generally understood, that it is merely for the possession of the place. There is a demand for these houses, and we want money before we leave them. 'Here is an in- stance I did not state in the first part of my evidence. I was in a place, and a tailor brought round a suit of clothes. He looks round and says, " You have a splendid place here," and the man says "Yes." Then he says, " I have not heard you want to move, but if you do think of moving do not forget me. I am the first applicant. I will give you £30." 3228. Your point is that people have to pay to go into the houses, in addition to the rent ?—Yes. 3229. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) They pay to the occupier generally ?—They pay to the occupier, the person that is in. 3230. (Chairman.) Not to the landlord?—No. 3231. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is shared in sumeMINUTES OF EVIDENCED. 115 cases ?—I do not know about that; I daresay the land- lord has got something in it, because a landlord is not going to change his tenant for nothing. 3232. (Chairman.) You must be wrong. Supposing a landlord gives a tenant notice to quit, he is bound to go out, and how can he take the money ?—That tenant is the sufferer. 3233- Who gets the key money in such a case ?—The landlord gets it. 3234. In nine cases out of ten, does not he?—No; it is not only the landlord that gets it. Supposing I am g, a landlord, and I have 20 houses of my own, and I have Solomons. got 20 tenants; in 10 cases I might get the advantage _ by giving these people notice to quit, and in the other 26 May 1902. 10 cases the tenants themselves might arrange so that - they got the premium. 3235. They are selling the tenancy to let the new- comer come in in the one case, and in the other the landlord turns the tenant out ?—Quite. 3236. And says to the new tenant, "I will not let you in unless you pay key money" ?—That is so. Mr. Isaac Lyons, ca 3237. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What is your name?— Personally, I wanted my name left out; but owing to this Commission desiring the name to be given, I give my name. My name is Isaac Lyons. 3238. You did not want to give your name ?—No. 3239. Where do you live?—At 146, Stepney Green. 3240. Why did not you wish to give your name?— Because undoubtedly I shall be boycotted for coming up here giving evidence. 3241. (Chairman.) Th© Commission are very sorry to hear that, and we hop© it is not the case. Who do y ou say will boycott you?—Twill be boycotted by the aliens from whom I have earned, or tried to earn, my living for a number of years ; that is to say, if they knew 1 had given evidence up here, they would look upon me as a kind of private detective, because I know their lives, and I know their methods of living, and the result is that when I go for a job they will see my name in the Jewish papers, and they would know it was me, and perhaps it would be impossible for me to get another job if I turn up my present job. 3242. I am very sorry to hear that such a thing could happen in consequence of giving evidence. Do not you think if you came into a public room like this, where your comrades are, whether you gave your name or not, that you would be known. How do you suppose it would be kept secret?—My name would not be put in front of these peoplo. 3243. But all your colleagues know you have given evidence ?—But my colleagues are in the same dilemma as I am. The reason why I so desired to give evidence is that when I entered the trade 12 years ago I earned more wages than I earn at present, taking the year through, but if you want further proof I can prove my position is so bad that I have been absolutely com- pelled to give evidence. 3244. All I can say is every member of the Commis- sion sincerely hopes you will not be boycotted for tell- ing the truth, and I cannot believe you will be.—I .accept the responsibility, anyhow. 3245. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are an English J ew ?—Yes. 3246. Where were you iborn?—I was born in the City.. 3247. Of foreign parents, or English Jewish parents ? -—English Jewish parents. 3248. You are a slipper-maker by trade?—Yes, and a ladies' dancing-shoe maker. 3249-. You have worked among this alien population for some time ?—Yes. 3250. For years?—Yes. 3251. What effect have they had upon the standard of living generally?—-The effect they have upon the standard of living is that they live in overcrowded places, and I have instances of terrible overcrowding. Their workshops or factories are practically in their sbedrooms, and the food that they consume is far below that of the standard of Englishmen. 3252. When you say Englishmen, you mean English, Jew and Gentile as well ?—Yes ; I mean to say that it seems to me, as one who has observed this thing, that tne whole aim of the alien when he comes to this country is to make money ; and in doing so a problem gets pre- sented to him how to live as cheaply as possible in order to save, because he knows the power of capital in a country like England. 3253. In what way have, these greeners, as they are 6144 ed ; and Examined. Mr. /. Lyons. called—that is to say, the fresh comers—affected your - trade ?---The way they affect the trade is this : A. greener comes over here, and he is generally introduced to a slipper-maker or a ladies' dancing-shoe maker, and he is put down to learn the trade. He sits down, and he learns one section of it, namely, to sew. When he has learnt to sew he practically stops there. His wages are extremely low; he works extremely long hours, so that when he does 12 months of this labour his constitution is gone, and the result is that he continues slow at his work, and, aided by the food he eats, the result is they work for extremely low wages. They are never able by their constitution to> rise out of that standard. 3254. They depress the standard of wages generally? —Yes. 3255. What does an average greener earn ai week ?— An average greener coming over for the first few weeks perhaps would earn nothing at all. He would simply come and work for nothing, and depend upon a few friends to supply him with a little food or a lodging, and the friends are not very slow to inform him to go to the Jewish Board of Guardians for assistance. 3256. (Chairman.) What occupation is the greener supposed to have had before he comes here?- 3257. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you know anything about their occupations before they come ?—In some cases they have been, what they term " shoesters " ; in other words, something similar to the old hand-stitcher we have in this country, but the trade they learn is quite a different thing to what they have been used to at home; but the bulk of them at home seem to have lived in small villages, and have heard of making tons of money in this country. 3258- They are surely not by any means all " shoe- sters " ?—No ; they are very few. 3259. Then what would 'be their occupation before jhey come here?—They seem to come from small vil- lages in Russia and Russian Poland, and they are agricultural labourers, or something of that description. 3260. After a man has passed through that initial stage of " greenerdom," as I may call it, what does he earn then ? First of all, how long does that stage last, a few weeks or a few months ?—It might last a few years, until he has learnt his way about England, but if he learnt the lesson from those around him, although he only knew how to sew, he would walk into a shop and take work out on his own account, and get the other greeners round that knew the other parts of the work, and so be a skilled mechanic on his own account. 3261. Then after they have been here a short time, that is what they do ?—Yes ; I have known cases where, after they have done that, they have started manufac- turing, and employing the greeners, and in some cases they have run away with £200 or £300 of the workmen's wages and credit from the leather merchants, and they have gone to Paris or America with the money they have received. I have personal demonstration of that. 3262. Of instances of these small manufacturers running away with the wages of the men ?—Yes ; before they have paid the wages. 3263. Has that happened to you personally ?—What really did happen to me personally was this : I was working with a small manufacturer. I had worked with the same man when he was a machiner on one shop ; that is to say, I was taking out work to make, and he was taking out uppers to machine. He started manufacturing, and asked me to w^rk for him. We p 2116 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. who are in the know refuse to work for these alien J. Lyons, manufacturers unless the money is paid on the nail ■ —■— before you start work, because there was quite an y 1902. epidemic of this thing, and we took care that we should not be caught. The last lot of work I shopped I de- manded my wages for, and he tried to put me off until the following afternoon. That I refused to have anything to do with. I refused to leave his shop until he paid me my wages. H© paid me, but others that had to wait till the following afternoon never received their wages, nor has the man been seen since. 3264. What sort of hours do these greeners work?— If you ask what sort of hours these people work, the answer to that is how many hours do they play ? That is about the only solution to that question. They work so hard, hour in and hour out, day and night, that the puzzle is to find out how many hours they play- not work. 3265. Supposing 'they work 12, 14, or 15 hours a day, what can they earn at present?—I have known men working for 12 hours a day earning 2s. per day to keep a wife. That is as sewers. 3266. {Chairman.) Is that the greener?—That is the first step the greener takes. 3267. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Working 12 hours a day, he would make 2s. ?—Yes, and not only in a 12 hours' day, but even longer than that; that is to say, with the air and the food and the long hours of work- ing, their constitution goes, and if you gentlemen wish to have a demonstration of tneir constitution I should like to point out that if you were to go to Philpot Street any morning at 10 o'oi^ck, you would see a mass of these aliens waiting outside the converted Jewish doctor's place, and I say if you would only see it your- selves, you would be at once in favour of doing some- thing to put down these people invading this country in such a style as they have done. 3268. What do you say about the converted Jewish doctor ?—I say if you saw the mass of these aliens at 10 o'clock in the morning at Philpot Street, outside the converted Jewish doctor's place- 3269. What is the converted Jewish doctor ?—He is a doctor in connection with the Mildmay Mission. 3270. One of those 'missions for converting the Jews? 3271. (Chairman.) Why do they congregate there? —Because they come to see the doctor. 3272. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They get medical treat- ment free?—Yes. 3273. (Chairman.) They get that whether he is con- verted or not?—Yes, certainly; but I say if you went there yourself you would say something should be done to stop them. 3274. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It has nothing to do with his being converted, of course, but you mean that is a place they congregate at in the morning?—Yes. 3275. (Mr. Norman.) Do you know that doctor's name?—Dr. Dick. 3276. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do they live under very crowded conditions?—Yes. I know a case where there was a husband, wife, and five children occupied two rooms, and they employed two men. The husband worked and the wife worked at slipper-making, and they paid 9s. a week for two rooms. They let one room out to a greener and his brother who had lately come over, and they lodged in the other room. {Chairman.) Does this term " greener" mean that the man is going through an apprenticeship? (Major Evans-iGordon.) All these fresh arrivals are called " greeners." He is like what they call a " griffin " in India. 3277. (Chairman.) Is there any time in which, they are supposed to be in this position and then afterwards become skilled workmen?—The time they are supposed to pass as greeners is the time it takes for them to get to know their way about in the trade. When they get to know their way about they manage to do exactly as the man did that taught them. 3278. Then they get more wages as they get to know their work better?—They do exactly what the man who taught them their trade did. They would go into a shop and1 take work out at perhaps reduced prices in order to compete their master out of the job, and so get the work for themselves, and employ others in the same way as they have been employed. 3279- What I want to know is whether the greener gets into the position of an ordinary workman?—The greener never gets on the standard of the Englishman. 3280. But he gets to the sarnie standard as the alien workman ?—The alien workman never gets to that high standard ; that is to say, to talk of competition between an Englishman and an alien is absurd. 3281. That is another point. I want to know whether as between themselves the alien grows into a full- coloured workman. I gather he does?—In most cases the alien does not depend upon his own labour to show that he is a skilled artisan. I will just give you an instance, because it is well that you should understand the nature of the shoe trade. Formerly, when I entered the trade, a man would go into a shop, and if the governor wanted a sewer hand he would give him out a sample pair, and the man would make that pair, and would take them to the shop and receive 12, 15, or 18 pairs a day. His wife would render him a little assist- ance, and that man did every part of the work himself, but these aliens do not do that. They employ labour, and some of them that I know, who are making a gross a day, if they were asked to make a single pair by their own labour, could not do it; that is to say, they rely not upon their own skill, but upon the skill of others. 3282. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Keeping on employing people below them ?—Yes. 3283. What attracts these people here?—I have had many a conversation with them, and I think perhaps the thing that most attracts them here is correspondence. I will just give you an instance. The law in Russia, I believe, is that when a young man who is going into the army escapes the country and comes to England, it is usually the law of the country to demand of the father a certain tax in lieu of the son; that is what I have been told by those who come over here. The young man when he comes to this country, in order that his father should not suffer for his running away, after he has been here a certain time, sends over a certain amount of money, and this amount of money going over there into these villages in Russia no doubt attracts others to come over. Also if a man starts manufacturing he generally sends for nearly all his family. In proof of that I know two- firms, or three firms, which occur to my mind at once, where the great bulk of the family, all aliens, are employed. As far as I am concerned, I do not mind mentioning names if you like. 3284. The one attracts the other ?—Yes. 3285. What is the feeling among your people generally about this alien immigration question?-—The feeling amongst the English .slipper-makers with recpect to the aliens coming over is that if the alien gets into a shop or attempts to come into a shop he is at once tried to be kept out of it. I will give you an instance of what happened. I was working for a .man who worked for a shop in a better class work in the Hackney Road. An alien came in, and he said he was going into that shop to try and get on there. When he was gone the man started cursing. I said, " What is the matter ? " He said, " Do not you think it is time they should be stopped ? Of absolutely every shoe that we have had in this place this week the aliens have been in and cut down the price." 3286. Do many people of your own religion and race feel as you do on this question ?—Yes. 3287. Is there any difficulty in getting them to come up and say so ?—Yes, the same difficulty as I explained at first. 3288. Are you convinced personally that the inflow of these people does lower the standard of living, and de- crease your chances of earning a living ?—Yes, without a doubt. 3289. You are- convinced of that?—Yes. I will give you another instance of that. You had a witness up before the Commission by the name of Silverstone. This is an incident that occurred to me yesterday week. I met a friend of mine who worked for Mr. Silverstone. Let me say I knew Mr. Silverstone when I was quite a child, and a more fair man than he tries to be in hi® trade there is not in the shoe trade. Nevertheless I to him, " Did you hear your old governor gave evidence on the Alien Commission ?" He said, " What did he say? Did he say he was losing his orders, because I know the man that is making the same work as I madeMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 117 lor Mr. Silverstone last year, and they are not being made for Mr. Silverstone now." He said, " I am work- ing for him, and I made them for Mr. Silverstone, and I got 7s. 6d. per dozen." 3290. He got 7s. 6d. per dozen when he worked for Mr. Silverstone ?—Yes; but from this man whom he is working for at the present moment, who takes work from a shop, he was receiving for the same work, which undoubtedly were Mr. Silverstone's orders, 5s. per dozen. When I remonstrated with him, and asked him how he made these for 5s., he said, "What can I do ? I must live. God does not give me anything. My governor is my god, and my workshop is my synagogue, and my last is my prayer-book." Those are the sort of people we have. got to get a living against. H© was making work for.-2£d. a pair less than what Mr. Silverstone was paying, and he said his governor was his god, his work- shop his synagogue, and his last his prayer-book. That is the nature of the people we have to compete with. 3291. You say it would be a benefit if some restriction were put on these people coming here in such numbers ? —As fa-r as the benefit is concerned, we would be benefited to the extent that trade would not get worse ; but if these people are allowed to come in in the manner in which they are coming, and going into the trade, goodness only knows what is going to happen in the East End of London in regard to the shoe trade. 1 can assure you I can bring up 100 men at the present moment, and we will take their pawn-tickets and rent books, and will practically fill the table with them. 3292. People in your own position of life?—Tes. 3293. How has it affected you ?—If you want to know how it has affected me, I will show you a few, if you wish to doubt my evidence. 3294. Are you in a worse position than you were for- merly ?—I am in a worse position now than ever I was. I darned more wages the first year I was in my trade, taking the year through, than I earn at the present moment, 'taking the year through. Mere are some pawn-tickets, and you can have a look at them (pro- ducing.) 3295. You attribute this to the competition you have had ?—Yes ; here is my rent-book. When I first en- tered the trade I was getting eight months' full work, and during the remaining four months there was always a bit. The trade has come down to such a state now, not that there is less work being made, because there is more work being made to-day. yet the trade has come down to such a state that practically in a year you can only get four months' full work, and for four months it is absolutely dead as far as the English workers are concerned. 3296. (Chairman.) Is it made in shorter time, or what causes that? (Major Evans-Gordon.) More people making it, I suppose.—The position is this : When the work was given out in former times, if a manufacturer got out two gross of work a day, there would be 17 men working at that shop making that two gross by taking 15 or 18 pairs a day. To-day you only require two foreigners, and they will do the two gross for juu. 3297. Wibait is fthie reason of that?—I have explained. It is the cheapness of their labour. 3298. And it is on account of there being more people to do it ?—Yes ; the skilled workman is entirely eliminated by the greener that comes over. It would take 17 skilled men to make that two gross in one day, and now it will take three skilled men and 14 greeners, 3299. There are more men employed?—Yes. 3300. That 'hits a man in your position very hard?— Yes. 3301. Do you see any chance of' any betterment or improvement of things unless some measure of restric- tion is adopted?—No. What I can see of it is that things will get so bad that you will practically eliminate a certain section of people in the East End of London. The people of the East End of London are beginning to feel extremely strong upon this matter, and they have come to the conclusion that something must be done. It does not matter whether they are painters or builders, or what their trade is, they feel that strong that what they really claim is that something must be done in order to check this import of aliens into the East End of Londor. Examined by Mr. Yallance. Mr. 3302. The congestion of tjhis labour is in the East End Lyons. of London alone?—The congestion of this labour was 2g May 1902 confined to Stepney proper, but the alien has not stopped-- at that, and he is now trying to compete in the better class work, and the congestion is gradually going on also in Hackney. 3303. Are you making the same class of work as you were when you first went into the trade P—The class of work I made when I first went into the trade was much better class than what is made at present, as far as the material is concerned; that is to say, that formerly a manufacturer would give out good leather, and to-day the problem with the manufacturer is how to make you work on as common material as possible. In fact, one manufacturer told me they did not want a workman who could make a good thing look good, but what they wanted was a workman who could make a common thing look good. 3304. Why ibave you changed your clasis of goods?— That has been changed through the ordinary course of competition. 3305. Is the competition alien corn-petition or labour by the aliens, or is it the competition by other nations as well ?•—If you like to call it competition, but as far as I understand competition there is no competition between alien and Englishmen. The alien has only to come and get his foot in, anid get accepted, and the Englishman walks outside. The alien gets the monopoly 3306. Notwithstanding the cheap goods you produce, there is considerable importation from America?—Not in my line of goods. 3307. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you attribute the whole of this deterioration of the trade to the aliens?1—Yes, and I am not alone in that. 3308. Never mind whether you are alone. You do attribute it entirely to the aliens ?—Yes. 3309. Do you isay the growth of machinery has nothing t(f do with it at all ?—No. 3310. Nothing at all ?—No. 3311. Formerly much fewer hands made a single article than they do now ?—Formerly one man made the article. 3312. Now a great many do 1—"Yes. 3313. Is not that i&uib-division duie a» great deal to the introduction of machinery in other places, in the Midland Counties in particular?—The introduction of machinery in the Midland Counties does not affect the ladies' dancing shoe. In fact, hand labour beats the machine ; that is to say, hand labour is so cheap that in my work, which is ladies' dancing shoes, if they were to introduce a machine the chances are it would cost more for machinery than it does now for labour. 3314. Therefore the hand labour has arrested the pro- gress of machinery ?—What I would say is this : Although it may be asserted hand labour has to a certain extent stopped the machinery, yet there are so many different parts of a shoe that it would even surprise you. to see how mechianically an ordinary dancing slipper is made. T'hey would require almost for every point a new machine, and at the present moment there is no such machinery in the market. 3315. How many separate processes are there of making a slipper?—Cutting the shoe, lasting up, sewing, turning, hammering out, making a sock, putting the sock in, getting it in straight, hammering it out, iron- ing, buffing, scouring, and pulling it off the last, every one of which things is mechanical, because if you tried to pull off the last and did not understand the trade you would simply break it. 3316. Are any of these processes done by machinery in London ?—Only in one or two places the sewing is. 3317. Now, with regard to these greeners you spoke of, how long does it take as a rule before a greener gets position enough to be able to become an employer ham- self?—You could not bring the question down to a proper time for the simple reason that some are quicker than others. For instance, I have known them in two years to be able to make themselves intelligible in English, and I have known others for ten years who cannot speak a word of English. 3318. But still they dio getfe on pretty quickly consider- ing everything; they do not remain in this very im- poverished state very long?:—They have come here to get on. As workmen they are not stable. With great118 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. I. Lyons. m May 1902. respect to one of the members of the Commission, every - one seeks to be a little Rothschild on his own. 3319. His idea is as small master himself ?- soon -Yes. possible to become a 3320. Not to (get higher wages, but to get better con- tracts ?—Yes. 3321. Tha/t as a rule /does itake .place toleraibiy quickly, and a good many of them get on1 ?—Yes, but you see their system of getting on. 3322. I only want the fact, whether it is good or bad ? —Yes, they do, but they are not over scrupulous which way they do it. 3323. Never mind that. As a matter of fact they do get on ?—Yes, 3324. Do they work themselves when they employ other people in this way?—Yes, they work exceedingly hard ; that m to say, they would not pay a penny for wages if they could do the work themselves. 3325. Do they do the higher class oif work? In the first place, what is the highest class of work, the finish- ing ?—No, the highest class of work, so far as price is concerned, is this. For instance, when a greener starts, and goes for himself, he would take on 3s. and 3s. 3d. work, and the treatment these aliens receive at the hands of the governors is a dangerous precedent to the English workmen in that shop. They work .their way gradually until they have got the 7d. and 8d. work, as it is at the present moment, but then the 7d. and 8d. work they are making at the present moment used to be lOd. and lid. 3326. Whait dis the lOd. or the <8d. work, as it is now? —Glace kid shoes. 3327. When they take this> sort of work do they under- take to finish the shoe, and turn it out, or only to do certain processes ?—-They undertake to take the uppers and the leather, and return the shoe made. Examined by Lord Rothschild. 3328. There is a certain proportion of the greeners who arrive here who are bootmakers or shoemakers in their own country ?—Yes, but the system of the boot- makers in cheir own country is a different system en- tirely to what we have in London. 3320. That I do not deny, but they have some know- ledge of bootmaking bef ore they take to the trade here ? —A few of them have. 3330. A certain number ?—Yes. 3331. I understand you to desire a higher rate of wage for bootmakers and shoemakers?—I am not going to say I desire a higher rate of wages, but what I object to is the lowering of the rate of wages. 3332. {Chairman.) From the present standard' you want it raised ?—Yes, certainly. 3333. (Lord Rothschild.) You object to its being lowered from the present standard, or do you think the present standard too low ?—The present standard is too low. 3334. If the present standard of wages were raised the cost of boots and slippers would be raised too ?— Yes. 3335. Wlhiat is {there to prevent foreign-made boots and slippers from coming in, then?—In this class of work we oan hold our own ; that is to say, that there is no fear of foreign competition in this class of work. We can hold our own even if an increased price was paid. 3336. Supposing the coist of this (class oif (boot were in- creased 25 per cent, or 50 per cent., you do not think a foreign-made article would come over?—It is not a question of raising the price 25 per cent, or 50 per cent. It is a question of raising the price of labour one penny or twopence, which is a vast deal of aifference: that is to say, instead of producing that shoe for 5s. retail, if you raised its price by 50 per cent, that means 7s, 6d., and it is a big increase. 3337. A previous- wfiftnass siaid -that a price which was 4s. 6d. is now 2s. lid. 3338. {Chairman.) I think his evidence was 3s. 6d. and 2s: lOd. ?—I should; like to poin/fc ou/t that there is no benefit 'attached1 to the country as a whole (by re- ducing the standard of wages in order to have cheap lungs for the consumer, because if you analyse the position of this country at the present moment you will find that the bulk of the people are engaged in -production. There is another class of society who gst their living on production—not by production, but they live practically on production. Therefore those that live by production or in distribution are poor, and thoae that live on production are rich, and they can better afford to pay for something than what the producer can by working at lower wages. There is one other point I should like to mention, not as evidence, but I should like to warn Lord Rothschild of what takes place. I was working in a place when two aliens came down, and they had a letter in their hands. They spoke in Yiddish. I could not understand them, but there was one name mentioned I could understand, and that was your own. They continually mentioned Lord Roth- schild. After they were gone out I said to the governor, " What is that ? " He said, " Any Jewish person writing to Lord Rothschild receives a sum of money." He asked me why I did not write, as everybody got it. I said, " Suppose I do not require it ? " He said, " Well, every- body gets it who writes for it." At that time I made up my mind I might inform you on the matter, but I thought it would be rather taking a liberty, so to speak, so I take this occasion to inform you. 3339. {Major Evans-Gordon.) What is your point upon that ?!—My point is that it seemed to be the general „ impression that by writing to Lord Rothschild they can get money, and they do so, whether they require it or not. 3340. Do yoiu mean that that is one of the baits that attracts them to come?—No doubt the Jewish charities are a bait, not individually, but collectively they are a bait. 3341. There is something for them to go for?—Yes. Another thing I should like to point out before I leave the chair, and that is that I was working in a street off Cambridge Road, and I heard rather a commotion out- side, and I asked the governor what it was. He said it was a woman who had lately come from Russia. Her husband was in America, and she was waiting for the Board of Guardians to send her out to her husband, and it was the usual thing for these men who had left Russia and gone to America to send their wives to England, and then leave the Board of Guardians the further trouble of sending them on to America. I have not the least doubt you will get a witness here from the Board of Guardians, and it would be interesting to know to what extent they have assisted these women to go to their husbands in America. 3342. {Chairman.) You have spoken of these greeners who go into your trade. You say they have had some knowledge of shoemaking, and you call them shoesters ? —Yes. 3343. They have ia rorugh knowledge of their trade ?— No. Their knowledge is that of a first-class stitchman in this country, and that would be an entirely different trade. 3344. But it is so far similar tha/t they4 gravitate into the shoe trade here?—Yes. 3345. Does that apply, do you think, to other trades ? —No. I have known them to come over here and do a day in the shoemaking trade and not get on with that, and then they become cabinet-makers there and then. 3346. We kniow the greatest number of ithe alien immi- grants who come here go into the tailoring trade. Have you any knowledge as to whether these people have been doing any tailoring work before they come ?—No, they have not been doing tailoring work. 3347. Whait have they done?—(Some of them seem to have come from small villages in Russia and some of them have travelled through certain parts for their living, or else they have been agricultural labourers; but the question of which trade they follow is just a matter of chance. 3348. You isay tlh/affc is so. It a® not on account of any previous knowledge of the trade?—No. 3349. In this shoemaking trade there is some trace of such a thing?—Yes, the shoe trade, but take the bulk—the trade they learn here is a matter of chance ; that is to say, they could be shoemakers at home and yet be costermongers over here. 3350. Your chief complaint is thait they have lowered the quantum of wages paid?—Yes. 3351. You would wish to see wfaige's raised ?—Yes. 3352. Your view is, even if they raise the price to the consumer that the greater benefit would be derived from, high wages to the producer than from a low rate of price to the consumer?—Yes. It is muchMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 119 better to pay slightly extra for a commodity than to let the producer of that article live in holes and corners, like rats in traps. 3353. We have heard that doctrine for a long time in this country ?—It is a sound one, I think. 3354. You are -a Protectionist. Ha,ve you been troubled at all with the house question P—Yes. I should like to' point out that as far as I am concerned, with regard to the house question, last year I lived in a place in Smith Street, Stepney. The landlord had a house next door, which he used as a kind of store- house, but to all intents and purposes the house was empty; that is to say, from the outside it appeared as if the house was empty, and the people that passed the Mr. house used to pass the remark, " What is the matter I. Lyons. with that house ? Why, it is empty! " That shows that - houses to be found in Stepney are so few that it is 26 May 1902. quite an unusual sight to see one to let. The people ~ moved out that occupied the house, and I had to search other places, and I may assure you that I and my wife searched and searched Stepney through and through, and at the finish I was compelled to take one room at Stepney Green, near to where I am living now, and there were six families living in one house. 3355. You say that is entirely from the increase of these immigrants coming?—Yes. NINTH DAY. Thursday, 29th May, 1902. PRESENT r The Eight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton k c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans-Gordon, m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. A., called; and Examined. 3356. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand you do not wish to give your name and address?—No, I decline to give my name and address. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I will state this at once. The Commission have decided that a witness who does not desire to give his name will be permitted to give his evidence; but that if he makes any specific charge against individuals or classes of individuals, in case of his attempting to do so his examination on such points must be discontinued. 3357. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where were you born? —I was born in Russian Poland. 3358. What was the name of the place?—The name of the place I was born at wats Podambitz. 3559, How old are you?—'Forty-one. 3360. How long have you been in England ?—Thirteen years. 3361. Why did you come to England?—When I left the Russian Army, in which I had done five years' ser- vice, a man had come over from England with a lot of money; and a lot of money was sent over from England from relations there, and people began to leave our town, which is a small town, and began sending over money very often, and that made up my mind that I should go over there as well, and so I came here. Espe- cially a man left our place—an old man who had no trade at all. He was here only a few months, and he sent over £30. I made up my mind, "lama mechanic. I believe when I go over there I shall be able to make more money than he can." 3362. 'And that man seint over £30?—£30 in a very short time. 3363. That got about in the town?—In that small town, as soon as a letter comes in the morning, in the evening everybody all over the place knows what letter ha® come and. how much money—everything. They call 300 small houses in a place a town, and when a letter comes from abroad, especially with money, in the morning, in the evening everyone all over the place knows who sent the money, who received the money, and everything; and that makes people come over here very often. Thalt is my opinion^ and I came over my- self. 3364. You came over because you saw .people were getting money from here ?—Yes. 3365. You assumed they were making money over here, and therefore you thought you would come over and have a try yourself ?—Yes. 3366. You had been five years in the Russian Army before that ?—Yes. 3367. What was your trade at that time?—Shoe- making. 3368. You were a shoemaker by trade ?—Yes. 3369. Did you know anybody in this country to come to ?—A pal of mine When I was in the Army left our place from where I came, and he came over here to England, and when I went round to his relations they gave jme his address. I cannot state the exact number of his address, but I can recollect the street. lit was Spelham Street, Spitalfields. 3370. I think it will be interesting to the Commission to know how you came over here. You started from your place in Poland ?—Yes, from Podambitz. 3371. And you made your way from there to where ? —To Germany. 3372. To Hamburg or Bremen ?—The first place where went to in Germany was a town near the frontier. From there I took the train. 3373. Did you have to have papers to come ?—No. 3374. You simply came without papers ?—Right through. 3375. In a train ?—Yes. 3376. Did anybody ask you any question ?—No. 3377. Nowhere?—No. * Rothschild.) You crossed the frontier on foot/—I paid five roubles to a man who took me over the frontier. ^3379. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Were you walking?-— 3380 How were you going ?—In a cart. I am going to explain to the Commission which way people go over the frontier, because it is not very easy to go over the frontier. It is very well protected. In the towns in our country near the frontier, as a rule, you can get a pass to go over to Germany. The pass is only in exist- ence for a week or a fortnight at most. 3381. It is only good for a fortnight ?—Yes. 3382. That is to say, they are supposed to go back t— Mr. A. 29 May I90'2120 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. A. 20 May 1902. He must deliver that card when he comes back to the police station, and that card gets marked on the frontier. 3383. At the police post ?—Yes. 3384. He gets a pass for a week or a fortnight just like a soldier gets a pass?—Yes. 3385. And he is supposed to come back?—Yes. When you get to the frontier you give the card, and they ask you what is your name. The name is stated on the card, and you turn round and give the name which is stated on the card. 3386. You paid five roubles for that?—Yes. 3387. In Podambitz ?—No, it is in the first town from the frontier, by the name of Karlich. 3388. How far is Podambitz from this town?—Podam- bitz to Karlich, roughly, I should say, is about 10 or 11 Russian miles. 3389. You walked from Podambitz to Karlich?—I travelled by cart. 3390. Anyhow, you got there ?—Yes. 3391. And then you went to the Russian police autho- rities ?—No. 3392. Whom did you go to for the card ?—I bought it of our people. There were three of us, two men and one female. 3393. You got a card which you bought from your people?—Yes. There are people living in the country who get their living in that way. Some people tell you they get their living from bootmaking, and some people tell you they get their living from tailoring, but some people get their living in a different way. These people in the country have a privilege to give a pass across the borderts. They .go round to the station and take out a pass. They do not take out a pass to go over them- selves, but to do a little business dn that way. As I have said, there were three of us, two men and one male, and we paid 15 roubles, and they gave us a pony and trap, wihich went to the frontier. Whe$ we came to the station the driver demanded the card or pass from us, and we delivered it to him, and the driver delivered the pass to another man. When the card is over that man returns the card back to the station or police authorities, and he gets another card, like 3394. How did you get across the frontier ?—By show- ing this card. When you go to the frontier they do not let anyone pass. A policeman comes and says, " Where are you going?" You say, "I am going Jena to see my friend." I say that, while I have it in mind to coin a to London. He says, "What is your name?" Th*> men had told me before what my name should be, the same name as on the card. I stated the same name, and then he said, " How old are you ?" and so on, and he marked the card and I went on. 3395. You went from there through Germany ?—Yes. That carman took us round to the first railway station past the frontier in Germany. From there I booked a ticket right to Hamburg. 3396. Not to London ?—No, to Hamburg. 3397. And from there you came over by ship ?—-Yes. ^ 3398. Whom did you pay for your passage ?—The ship- ping company. The shipping company has got offices in Hamburg, just the same as in London. 3399. (Sir Kenebri Digby.) You took your ticket rrootn the Shipping Company?—Yes. 3400. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was there any difficulty thrown m your way of leaving the country at all ?—I should say before I went to join the Army, which is compulsory there, my father, who is dead and buried now God bless his soul!—.tried to persuade me to leave the country and go over to America or England not to serve the Army, but I would not do that, because I was absolutely sorry to part with my country where I was bred and born. There is a thing which I have pointed out to the Commission before, namely, that people come over here through money being sent out. People here send .money out, and that makes people come over. j-i. 3^01. (Jtfr. Alfred Lyttelton.) The question is whether vxe authorities made it easy to leave Russia or made it uimcult?—I do not understand. 7A^: (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) The question is whether any difficulty was thrown in your way to leave the country, or whether you could quite easily come?—No, I could not come easily at all. 3403. Did the authorities try to stop you coming ?— What authorities ? 3404. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The point of your evidence is that you had to resort to these contrivances to get across the frontier ; therefore the inference is that it was not easy. 3405. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There does not seem to be any contrivance. You simply got a pass and came across ?- 3406. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You had to put your name on the card, and so on ?—Nobody would be let through without a pass—certainly not. I went over there just the same as what anybody else does with a false pre- tence. 3407. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You paid five roubles for a card, but that was a private transaction. Then you arrived in London P—Yes. 3408. What did you do then?—There were a lot of us coming over in the same ship, a lot of friends to meet their relations, but I did not have relations to come and meet me. 3409. You had " greener " friends on board the ship ? —Our country people which came over together anrl those people had friends in London, and before they arrived in London I suppose they sent a letter to them, and they came on board the ship to take them off, and I followed them. 3410. You went with them ?—I followed them, and I showed a man the address I had of a friend of mine who lived in Spelham Street, or Pelham Street. When I came to Spelham Street my friend had gone away to America a week or a fortnight before that. 3411. So you were alone in London ?—Yes, I was left in the street with my parcel. Foreign people came round to me and began to ask me some questions. 3412. Had you any money ?—Yes, I had 38 pfennigs German money. 3413. How much is that in English money?—100 pfennigs is lOd. 3414. You had 38?—Yes. 3415. You were alone in London?—Yes. 3416. What happened to you then$—When the foreigners came round to me they saw I was a greener because I had my parcel under my arm, and they began to ask questions as to where I had coime from and what I was. I told them where I had come from, and I told them I was a bootmaker by trade. They took me round to a finisher in the same street. When I came to the finisher's place there were ajbout four or five people working in the place, so the finisher asked me what tradesman I was. I told him I was a bootmaker by trade3 so he turned round to me and said, " Have you got any money ? " So I put my hand in my pocket and I showed him the money which I had, which, as I stated before, was 38 pfennigs. The finish of it was he gave me no answer when I showed him my money, and some men took me round to Leman Street—I recollect it very well—No. 84, Leman Street, where I had lodging and grub free. there, 3417. At the Jewish Shelter?—Yes. 3418. How long did you stay there ?—I stayed I believe, nine or ten days, or something like that. 3419. Looking for work ?—Every morning after break- fast I went out and looked for work. I found work in the first week I stayed there. I had been staying there about three or four days, and I found a job from a foreigner in Old Montague Street, in a court. There were about eight people working there in one room. It was only a three-roomed house. The master lived on the ground floor, and on the first floor was another room—that was the workshop. There were eight of us working there. I worked there one week. 3420. What hours did you work ?—I did not work long hours at that time, because I had to be back between 8 and 9 o'clock in the Shelter in the evening, so I only worked up to 8 or quarter past 8, or something like that. When it came to Friday he gave me 2s. 3420*. For how many days' work ?—-I believe that was five days' earnings. I knew very well that 2s. is just like 1 rouble in our country, so I turned round to the governor and said, " This ain't muchI cannot get my living with one rouble a week. I ould earn more thanMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 121 that in my awn cbuntry." He said, " You are only a greener. You cannot do my work which I give to you." I said, " Any work you give me I know I am doing the same as other people are doing.55 He said, " Next week you can do piece-work." I said, " All right. I am satis- fied to work next week piece-work." Then next week I came to work on the Sunday, and I began to work piece- work, buffing and finishing shoes, and sand-papering. I began to ask questions of the people there, the eight foreigners-—they were all foreigners. There were seven, and I made the eighth. There were three Poles amongst them—what I call Christian Poles. I was lodging in the same place. They had a little room on the top—what I call the third room. I began to ask those people what price it was per dozen for buffing shoes or papering them. They did not answer me. I was surprised. I was ashamed to ask the governor. I did not have the courage. I asked the Poles, and the Poles told me 2d. a dozen. All that work I was doing in the day I booked down in my own book, in my own language, every night. 3421. You spoke no English theix at all ?—No. My master turned round in the evening and said to me, " If you like you can lodge in here. It will be better for you, because in this trade you have to work late into the night." I was hard up. I did not come over a millionaire or a rich man, and I was very glad, so I said, " All fight. I am going to-night to sleep in the Shelter, and to-morrow morning I will take all my things which 1 have got there," which I did, and the next morning I came to work, and I brought my things with me. I had a little parcel and one thing and another, and I slept in the same room where these three Poles were lodging, and I made the fourth. But these Poles turned against me because they did not like it, so they told the governor the next day, "If you are going to keep him in here we are going to leave." He did not tell me nothing in the day, but when it comes to late in the evening and I had done work, he said, "You cannot sleep in here because they do not want you." What was I to do then ? I have not got any relations here. I , walked out, and I walked up to Wentworth Street, and I began to ask people where I could get a night's lodging. One said, "I do not know," and he left me and went away. I met somebody else and I asked him, and he said he did not know. Then at the finish I came across a German, and I asked him. He began to think, and he said, "Come with me, and I will show you where." So he took me round the corner of Wentworth Street and Commercial Street to the Victoria Home and Working Men's Lodging House. I could not speaJs, because this was an English place, so he spoke for me. He told me to put down 4d., and I had a night's lodging there. 3422. What sort of place was that?—An ordinary workmen's lodging-house. So the next morning, when I came to work, I began to tell the lodging people what had happened to,me last night, so one old man who was there, it may be he was about 60 years of age, and a foreigner, said to me, "I have a friend not living far from here, and when I go out to dinner I shall go round to this friend of mine, and you can get a lodging in there." 3423. Never mind what was said, but tell us what happened ?—-This foreigner found me a lodging there in a little house in a court—only a two-roomed house. I was lodging there on the top room—me and another one —aild the governor lived on the ground floor in.one room with, his wife and six kids. I and another man was lodging in the second room on the first floor. * 3424. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Were there two rooms on the ground floor?—No, only two rooms in the house. 3425. Then he and his wife and six children lived in one room ?-—Yes. 3426. (.Major Evans-Gordon.) How long did you stay there ?—I worked for a week up till Friday. My governor had told me I should be on piece-work, and I had put it down in a book, but when it comes to. Friday my governor gives me 5s., and he says, "Now you have got two roubles and a half." I had reckoned up the book before he paid me, and I had earned 10s. 4d., and I was only paid 5s., so I said to him, " I have booked in my book what I earned according to the prices I was told, and my money is 10s. 4d." He said, " There is good money for you. You are only a greener," so I go to my lodging-house and tell my lodging keeper. He said, " What can you do? You can only summons him, that is all." Where can I go if I cannot speak no 6144 English? I do not know where to go. I say to my 7^ ^ lodging mister I am going out to look for another job, ,—r— and so I did, and I found another job. 29 May 1902. 3427. You went on to another place and stayed there some time ?—After that place I went and found a place, in Umberston Street, Commercial Road. I was working there about six months, and master lived there in two underground kitchens. One kitchen used to be the workshop, and in the back kitchen my master lived with himself and his wife and his children, and my master's wife had a sister, a single girl, who slept in the workshop on a chair bed, and when I came in the morning to work I had to knock at the door. Sometimes, like a female, she had not got up quite so early, and he said, " Wait a minute," and I waited till they waked the girl up and she left the place. I was working there six months. 3428. How many were thexe working there?1—Two foreigners and the master. I worked there for six months, and afterwards I got ill working there late hours. 3429. What hours were you working ?—Working till one o'clock in the morning, and sometimes till two, and every Thursday night all night. 3430. Was trade very brisk then?—Trade was. At that time what I recollect was eight or nine months busy during the year, and three or four months slack, but in the slack time a person had the chance of getting a bit. 3431. What wages were you earning at that place ?— I used t oearn from about 24s. to 25s. a week. 3432. What hours ?—From 8 o'clock in the morning, and I never left there before one the next morning, and sometimes two, and every / Thursday night all night. 3433. What was the work you were doing—finishing 1 ' —I was only doing the same work -as I am doing now—• slippers and dancing shoes. 3434. After you left that place that you were six months in, where did you go?—I was obliged to leave chat place, because I got ill. 3435. Then you went on to another place?—Then I was queer for two or three months right off. . I was under treatment in the hospital. 3436. Then you went to another place ?—Then I went to learn another trade. 3437. What trade ?—Lasting. 3438. Also in the shoe-making line?—Yes. Then I paid a man half-a-sovereign for learning. 3439. How long were you learning ?—Our agreement was made up to work four weeks for nothing, which I did. 3440. While you were learning?—Yes>. 3441. And you paid ham half-a-sovereign besides ?— Yes. I learnt lasting, and after four weeks he began to pay me 7s. per week. I was working two or three weeks at 7s., and I said on Friday when he paid me the 7s., " Master, I cannot get a living with 7s. a week," and he raised me another Is. I worked one week, and then I turned round to him and said, " I am not going to work for that money/' so he said " I will give you half- a-sovereign." He gave me half-a-sovereign, and I worked three or four weeks, and then there was a lock-out in the boot and shoe trade in London. 3442. That was some 10 years ago?:—Soime 10 or 11 years ago, so I had no work after that. 3443. They locked you out ?—Everyone in the boot trade was locked out except the slipper-making trade, which was not. I did not learn the trade properly in this time, because they do not try to learn you. They were only trying to get half-a-sovereign, and make a man work four weeks for nothing. I had no money, because although I had saved a few pounds I was queer for three months, and so my money went away, so I was obliged to look for a job in my old game of slipper- making. I just found a job with a foreigner, and I was working for him a nice few years. ^ 3444. How long?—Nearly two years, or something like it. He lived in that court as well. In the same court was a three-roomed house. We were working oi?. the ground floor. 3445. How many people worked there ?—In the busy time about 11 or 12 of us. He had three rooms. We were working on the ground floor, and one set was in the second_room on the first floor. Then he had a little garret, which wasi the third room. He kept one lodger there, and three people were working in the same place. QROYAL COMMISSION 0^ ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. A. 3446. One man slept there, and three worked in the —garret?—Yes, I worked there nearly two years. I was 29 May 1902. working there very long hours, because when the master oame home from the shop about 7 o'clock in the even- ing he brought some work, some 12, or 15> or 18 dozens. He turned round and said, " There is all this work, which is special. All this work must go into the shop to-morrow morning." Of course we are only working people, and the master says so, and it must be done. We could not refuse it. Every day when he oame from the shop in the evening he always brought home specials, and we had to get on with those specials, but 1 would not work on after 12. I left at about 12 o'clock. He picked a. row with me, and called me a gentleman because I would not work after 12. 3447. You worked very long hours there?—Yes. 3448. What wages did you get ?—I used to earn then about 28s. to 29s., and sometimes. 27s., all according, because it is all piece-work. These are not constant wages. Sometimes it was Is. more and sometimes Is. less. 3449. After that where did you go to?—After I finished I had a row with my master, and left him, and I had just the opportunity to go and work indoors. 3450. That means in a factory ?—Yes. I was working at that factory over eight years. 3451. How many people were employed there ?—When I went there first I cannot state it exactly, but I should say between 45 and 50. 3452. All foreigners All foreigners ; only a few Englishmen amongst them. The biggest lot amongst those foreigners were all relations of the firm. 3453. The people who were working were related to the firm?—Yes. 3454. How many partners were there in the firm?— Three partners. 3455. And the workmen were mostly composed of theii relations ?—'The biggest part of the working people in that firm were relations, and some of them who were not relations! came from the same town as they came from. They were what I call landsmann. 3456. Used they to senid over for their relations to come and work ?;—One partner of the firm who came over here years back did not have any trade. He was not a tradesman at all. When he came over here he began to learn a trade—to make boots. As soon as he learnt to make them he began to bring over some relations, his brothers, his wife's brothers, and cousins and sisters, and brothers-in-law. I knew personally 18 of his rela- tions oame over here who had no trade at all. They were drivers and carmen, and they began learning a trtende. When that man started manufacturing, the biggest part of the employees he had were his own people. 3457. When they came over here they were worked these long hours?'—They worked under the same con- ditions under which I worked. I was working among foreigners for 12 solid years, and I do know how 1 worked, and how I got treated. They make you work long hours. 3458. Had you got relations of yours here asking you to come over ?—No, I have not got any relations of mine here. I have got relations at home. I have got a littio letter here which I hold in my hand. I found it in an old pocket. It is a letter in which my brother is abso- lutely begging for me to send for him to come over here. He is hard up. The letter is dated 1899. My answer was only one answer. I said : " If you have got a potato and a cup of tea to it, stop where you are, because people coming over here, if they are foreigners" (I am a foreigner myself, but I am going to speak the truth) " cannot make no fortune." It is absolutely a hard job to make a living. I know people what I call foreigners in the East End of London who sent for their own rela- tions, their own landsmanns, who had bad reputations in their own country, and they were sent for by big manufacturers here to work for them. 3459. You told your own brothers not to come ?—Cer- tainly. 3460. You said they had better stay where they were ? —They had better stay there than come over here, be- cause I was working 12 years among foreigners, and I * told them how many hours I worked and how I* was paid. 1 am working now for an Englishman, and now I begin to see that I was absolutely 12 years in Siberia during all those 12 years I worked amongst foreigners. I am working cow for an Englishman, and have been for 12 months, and I begin to see there is a difference. I begin to see what a cruel life t had when I was working amongst the foreigners. 3461. During those 12 years you had to work very long hours, and, in fact, you were sweated ?—Quite so. 3462. You say you worked for one large foreign firm for eight years?—Yes 3463. What were your wages then ?—My wages were paid in this way : when the busy time commenced in our trade my governor took me on weekly—to work weekly for him. 3464. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Paid by time, and not by piece ?—Weekly wages. 3465. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How much a week?— I started at 27s. per week. 3466. What hours?—The weekly employment ought to be from 8 till 8, but I was not particular. I. worked sometimes tail 9 and sometimes later, to satisfy the governor. 3467. (Sw Kenelm Diaby.) Eight till 8 were your regu- lar hours ?—Supposed to be, but I was not particular. I worked perhaps an !hour a day longer, or perhaps an hour and a half longer a day to satisfy the governor. Then when the busy time goes and the slack time begins, the governor turns round to me and says, "You will have to work piece-work." 3468. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What difference did that make ?—All according. Sometimes I earned 7s. in the slack time, sometimes 10s., sometimes 5s., and sometimes half a crown. 3469. If you had worked piece-work in the busy time you would have got a great deal more wages ?— If I had worked piece-work in the busy time, and he had paid me the full price, my wages ought to be, at the lowest, £3 10s 3470. -{Sir Kenelm Digby.) You said it started ab 27s.?—Yes. 3471. What did you go up to ?—■-Up to 30s. 3472. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Weekly wages?—Yes. Only for that short time that the busy season, was on. # 3473. If you had been doing piece-work in the busy time, how much would you have earned?—In the 'busy time my wages ought to be, at the lowest, £3 10s., piece-work. 3474. So the idea was to put you on weekly wages during the busy time, so as to avoid paying you these high wages?- 3475. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How about the hours if you are doing piece-work ?—Piece-workers work longer hours. By the Factory Rules it is supposed to be 8 till 8, but I saw people working till 12 o'clock at night. 3476. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In a factory ?—Yes. 3477. After you left that place where you worked 12 hours, where did you go ?—I would not have left that place at all, but it just happened that there was a strike in the boot and shoe trade and I was locked out, and during the strike my governor said to me, " Go in tp work," because all his relations had been working in the time of the strike. 3473. You not being a relation?—;No. I would not go, because I belonged to a union. 3479. Was there a union at that time ?—-There was a union at thjat time. 3480. What has become of the union]—does that exist still P—It still exists, only it is not much in favour of the working people. 3481. Through the strike you lost your billet ?—My governor met me in the street, and said, "Go in to work. There are some people working there." I kne^i ; very well there were only relations of his who had been working at the time of the strike, and I turned round to the governor and said, " I would like to go in, but I cannot go against the majority." He did not answer me, but he went away. When the strike was over 1 went back to work and saw the governor. He picked us four people whom he had asked to work in the time, of the strike and who had refused and put us in a separate room and gave us work there at Is. to Is. 4d. a dav. I stopped for one week only. I could not stand it and I left. f 3482. Then what did you do?—When I left I went out looking for a job, and I found a bill in Brick Lane in our own language. 3483. You got a job?—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 3484. What was it?—In my own trade in a small manufactory. 3485. What was that factory ?—When I came there to work there was only a little room, a very small back roo^< oil th& first ffoor. I Was working there and another man, a foreigner who was only about six months over here, and the master. 3486. There were three of you altogether ?—Three of lis have been working there. The next morning my master told me to come a little bat early. I knocked at the door and the governor let me in. I went into the passage and went upstairs, in to the workshop. I did ndt knock at the door because I knew very well no one would & in the workshop, but I opened the door and I foiind the greener sleeping there. 3487. The greener was sleeping in the workshop ?— ^es * 6rily a little room. I woke him up. There were two -low dhairs, and a board was laid on those chairs, and a sack was placed on the board, and he slept on it. When I woke him up he took ithose things away and sat, down to work. When we sat down to work, I said, " Do ypu pay anything for it ?" I thought possibly the governor gave it to him as a 'benefit, 'but lie said, " No ; he charges me Is. a week." 3488. That was for" sleeping accommodation ?—Yes. After: that the greener took over hiis son. 3489. He sent for his son?—Yes ; his son was in the same trade—a shoemaker; so his son was working there and four of us were working there in that little room. • ; - 3490. Did the son sleep in the room too?—Yes. 3491. The two of them slept ini the room ?—The two of them slept in the room, and I left him because I could not stand it. It was very close there. 3492. After this experience you are now working for an English firm?—At the same time as I was working there I was looking out for a job, and I found a job in an English firm. It is only 12 months since I have been working with an English firm.. 3493. Do you mean an English Jewish firm?—Yes. 3494. As opposed to a foreign Jewish firm?—Yes. Now I see the difference how it is to work for an Englishman and how it is to work for foreigners. I am treated like a man, and I could not see it before. 3495. Now you see many of these foreigners are coming over here?—Yes, they are coming over here very fast. 3496. What sort of 'condition do they come in chiefly?—I never saw1 a foreigner coming over here with money.- They generally all come over without money. 3497. Some of them have money, but most of them not ?—I believe a person with money can get a living very easily in his own country. 3498. Why do those come over here who have money ? —I believe people with money do not come over here at all. I do not think so. 3499. Have you noticed any change in your trade in,.the 13 years you, have been, here?—The first change is i this : from the first beginning when I came over here I remember from eight to nine months during the year it was busy, and between three and four x^onths in the year it was slack, as I stated before, only in the sl^ck time there was always a, phance to get a . bit. 3500. Something or other?—Yes; and the prices were faiy. Now I can say tihere are only four months in th8 :'y&ft '• busy," and eight months in the year slack, in my trade. , 3501.' Your special trade is the lady's dancing shoe making ?—Yes. 3502. What do you attribute that change to ? What is the reason of that, in your opinion?—In my opinion the reason is that there are too many people in the trade. The trade mostly lies in foreigners' hands, and there are too many hands in it, and they are coming over every day, and when the busy time commences they are absolutely working day and night, and, of course,'the, ^work o^iiptllast very long. 3503. They mop it tip when the busy time comes?—• Yes; , " c; 3504. Because there .are* so many of them coming over here to find employment?—Yes. People who come over here and have not got any ja*ade go to the shoemaking tradfe-^s fekiheri o*severs/ : Especially %hen a man in a short time starts to take ^ork out of the shop and 0144 Mr. A. works at home; as soon as he ttekes work home he sends for his brother to come and give him a lift. When a man is only a short time over here and sends 29 May-1902. money over to his brother to come over, others begin to hear about it, and that makes others come over, and they only come and get caught in a trap, like I was caught in a trap 13 years ago. 3505. Now, what about house accommodation and lodging ? Do you say there is a difficulty about that, too ?—I cannot say there is a difficulty, because I say it is something shocking. You have people living in houses, and the property gets sold to foreigners, and they raise the rent and can do absolutely what they like. They have the power in their own hands. 3506. Englishmen raise the rents, too, of course ?— I cannot tell you if an Englishman raises the rent. I can explain it to you in one way. I know a street in the East End of London where there are only eight houses in it. They are all one-shape houses, with six rooms each. Those eight houses belonged to English landlords, one landlord had two*, another had two, and the third landlord had four. Unfortunately two of them were sold to a foreigner. They were at 10s. a week all those years, and when the foreigners bought those two houses he raised them up to 16s. When he raised them up to 16s. the tenants could not pay. They went out to look for a house somewhere, but there was not an empty house to be seen anywhere in the East End, or rather in the neighbourhood of Stepney, so they went round to the landlord, and they had a hard struggle, and made it up to 4s. more every week, and they are paying 14s. Now there is another English landlord who* had four, and who sold them, and a foreigner bought them. He raised the rent something like Is. 6d. per week, and he sold them again. Another foreigner bought them, and the other foreigner raised it something. Then they were sold again to a foreigner, and now they are 14s. per week as well. The rates and taxes were raised round in this district because the rent was higher. One Englishman was left there, and his house was at 10s. a week. He did not raise the rent. The rates and taxes were raised, and all these houses were in one condition and the same shape, so the Englishman's rates and taxes were raised in the same fashion, and he was obliged to raise the rent through that. 3507. Although he was charging a low rent, still his rates and taxes were raised ?—Yes. 3508. And that made him raise his rent?—Yes. 3509. Your general conclusion is that these people who come over here are damaging one another and cut- ting one another's throats as regards work and wages ? —So they do. In our trade among foreign employers they are giving people what they like—paying what wages they like, and these poor creatures cannot help themselves, because if they leave that place they have to go to work for another foreigner, and he does thf same, thing, so they cannot help themselves. 3510. And there are always more coming in ?—Always more coming in. If a person says : " I want a rise in the wages," the employer turns round and says : " Go, I do not want you, I have got somebody else in the place." 3.511. You can always. get plenty more at the low ,vages ?—Yes, especially people coming over here who are no tradesmen at. all, and relations, and one thing and another. They are always coming over here with a recommendation from someone. They, get out into a trade to learn a trade, and .get paid hardly anything. I know a greener who used to work where I was work- ing. He got paid 7s. per week, and he was a shoe- maker at home. 3512. What do you say is your remedy for this ?—My remedy is, we should not allow them to come over. 3513. Not in such numbers ?—No. .3514. (Lord Rothschild..) I understood' you to_say that most of the alien immigrants who come here receive money from their friends on this side to bring them over ?—The biggest part of them. 3515. If that is the case, could you explain how the alien immigrants, earning, as you say, very low wages, can save money to bring their relatives over here when they know that bringing them here must still further depress the market?—I pointed out before, and I will point out again, how the foreigners live. I lodged in a foreigner's place, me and another man, and we paid 4s. per week for two of us in one room. That man who kept that house with his wife and six children lived only in one rcom, That house was only 5s. 6d. a week Q 2-..... ~ ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION • Mr. A. f°i" rent in those times. A married man with a family ^—— of six children and his wife only cost Is. 6d. for rent per 29 May 1902. week. I believe that they can save money in that way, while an Englishman could not live in that condition, with a man and wife and six children in one room. 3516. There is another point I did not understand. You said when trade was good you received weekly wages ?—Yes. 3517. And when trade was bad they put you on piece- work?—Yes. 3518. Did they pay you less proportionately for the piecework when trade was bad than the weekly wages you were earning ?—In the busy time, when trade was good, I was paid wages. 3519. You were earning 27s. ?—I said from 27s. up to 30s. ' 3520. The quantity of work you did' in the busy time depended entirely on yourself?—That job I had on weekly wages in the busy time was a different job alto- gether.' I had a job like a foreman, to be responsible for all the work which was done in the firm, and then I had to do work which two other people could not do, and I had to be responsible for all the work. 3521. Do you know the firm of Flatau and Lyons, a very large firm?—I never worked there. 3522. But they are the largest employers ?—They are very large employers, and they have a very good name. They pay a fair wage. 3523. And they employ a good deal of machinery ?— They do so, I was told. I never worked there. 3524. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How long was it after you first came here that you were earning this 27s. a week ? You have been here 13 years?—Yes. 3525. How long did you take before you got to earn 27s. a week ?-—It only took me about three years. 3526. You began with 2s. ?—The first start off was with 2s. 3527. You have done pretty well for yourself?—I began to find out more and more. I believe I ought to have earned more, only my master did not pay me the price of what I earned. He told me I earned 27s., and I had to believe him. 3528. But that was weekly wages ?—It was after three years when I earned 27s. a week. 3529. Now, about the slack time. Did you ever take up any other trade ?—Yes, I began to learn another trade. Unfortunately there was a lock-out in this trade, and I had to drop it, and I had to go back to my old job, so I am still in the position where I was before. 3530. What I mean is- that your work has been in the boot trade generally ?—In the slipper trade. 3531. Did you ever take up any other trade quit out- side the boot trade ?—No. 3532. Some people do, do they not, turn hawkers or something of that kind?—A lot of people, foreigners, learn absolutely two trades. 3533. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Two different trades? —Two different branches in the same trade. 3534. Do they ever take up an entirely different trade ?—During the slack time there is a lot of people go out hawking with barrows in the street; I have done it for a nice few slack times, because I could not get money in any other way. 3535. (Mr. Vallance.) You say you were 12 years en- gaged in this trade with Jews?—I did not mention any Jews. I said "foreigners." 3536. You were working for foreigners for 12 years? —Yes. 3537. Before you engaged yourself to an English firm ? •—Yes. 3538. During those 12 years did you inform yourself at all as to the conditions of trade?—Where can I go and inform myself ? I do not know where to go. 3539. Could not you inform yourself that there was a better market for your labour than what you were getting ?—All our markets are foreign people, and they all pay bad wages. When a master takes out work from a factory, when he comes home he says to his work- ing people, "I only get so much a dozen for this sort of work." He has got his work-book with his price in it, and I do not know how much he gets; I am com- pelled to believe him, 3540. What is your particular class of work? Is it the slipper trade?—Yes. 3541. You have been engaged in that trade all through ?—Right through. 3542. Was the slipper trade largely in existence when you came to London first? Was there much of the slipper trade being done in England?—When I came over here, as I stated before, I had from 8 to 9 months' full work in the year, and now I only get between 3 and 4 months' full work, and the rest of it is slack. 3543. Have you been naturalised ?—No. 3544. What do you say should be done to prevent this condition of things which you have described?— If it were in my power I should stop foreigners coming over altogether in one way. 3545. If that had been done 13 years ago, that would have stopped you?—I would not be sorry. 3546. You .say very few come over with any money ?— I know only one man who came over with money two or three years back. He brought over, I was told, 30,000 roubles. That is what I was told. I believe he ran away from there and came over here. 3547. (Chairman.) Was he in trade?—He was a busi- ness man at home, and he come over here with 30,000 roubles. I was told he had to run away, and now I am told he is a big property owner, and he is joint partner with another one. 3548. (Mr. Vallance.) How is it with this terrible con- dition of things in London it is an attraction to foreigners to come over here? You say that the foreigners are attracted by their relatives, and they even have money remitted to them to Russia, and are advised to come over?—I did say so. When I come over here, as soon as I begin to save money I work for myself, and become like a little master, and if I have a brother at home I send for him, because if I send for my brother, and I work at home and make him work, I have always got a chance to reap a little bit of benefit off him. 3549. Have the conditions of existence in Russia, the persecutions, anything at all to do with the exit of the Jews from Russia?—I cannot state what the condition in Russia is now, but when I left my country 13 years ago, the condition was very well. 3550. When you came to London first and engaged in the slipper trade, did you know that that was a trade just commencing in this country? It had not commenced long then ?—I did not know it. 3551. Do you know now that years ago this class of goods was largely exported?—I cannot explain that, because I do not know. 3552. Do you know whether the persons engaged in the boot and shoe trade are in excess of what they were 10 years ago, or whether they are fewer? You know every 10 years a census is taken?—Yes. 3553. You know what the census is?—Yes. 3554. Supposing the census reveals the fact that there are fewer engaged in that occupation now than there were 10 years ago, how would you account for that, having regard to what you say?—I do not understand your question. 3555. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Every 10 years the number of people is taken?—Yes. 3356. Ten years ago there were so many thousand people in the shoe trade?—Yes. 3357. Ten years afterwards the census shows there are fewer people than there were 10 years ago in the shoe trade. How do you account for the fact that there are fewer people in the shoe trade now than there were 10 years ago, according to the census? What is the reason of that ?—The reason is because the trade is in such a bad condition that people cannot get their living in the trade, and they are obliged to leave the trade and go and take up something else. 3558. (Mr. Vallance.) Is the bad condition of the shoe trade general throughout the trade, or is it only in regard to the slipper and the cheap shoe trade?—The shoe trade used to , be very well years back, and as to the payment, it is very low now compared to what it was years back. 3559. Do you k;iow anything about the high-clas§MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 125 shoe trade—the best shoe trade ?- in it. -No, I have never been 3560. You cannot say whether the workmen engaged in the making of a pair of boots for which the pur- chaser pays 27s., is paid more or less than he was 20 years ago ?—I cannot explain that to you. I know only one thing. I met a fellow last week who is in my own trade, and he works for a foreigner, and a foreigner who takes out work from a foreign firm—what we call glac6 kid. That is the best shoe in the trade. I asked him " How are you getting on ?" He says, " Very bad. I am working now for a man and I am sewing glace Kid shoes for Is. 9d. a dozen." 3561. The employment must necessarily be precarious, must it not, seeing that dancing shoes and slippers are necessarily a seasonable trade ?—I suppose so. 3562. There is a special season in which there is a demand for dancing shoes and slippers?—Just so. 3563. Therefore it is a more precarious department of the trade than the general run of shoes ?—Quite so. Mr. A, 29 May 1902 . Mr. B., called; and Examined. Mr B. 3564. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You do not wish to give your name?—'No, I do not. I would be too pleased to give my name, but the reason I do not wish to give my name is because I shall be compelled to go and get my living at these places where I have been getting my living up to now, and for that reason I refuse to give my name. 3565. You do not wish it published anyhow ?—No. (Chairman.) I think we had better let it be known under what circumstances we permit this, because it is unusual. Application was made to the Commission that certain witnesses should be allowed to give evidence without giving their names except to< the Commissioners. That is not a usual course that is generally taken in ordinary inquiries, but certain special matters were stated why it should be allowed in this instance. The Commission came to this determination: that a certain class of witnesses may be presented for examination who for reasons of their own desire not to give their names when examined, but the Commission will not permit -uch witnesses to make any specific charges against in- dividuals or class of individuals, and in case of their attempting so to do, their examination on such points must be discontinued. We do not allow this without good reason. It is abnormal. 3566. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where were you born— in Poland ?—In Poland, near the German frontier. 3567. How long have you been in England ?—Twenty- three years. 3568. What is your occupation ?—I am a boot finisher by trade. ' 3569. Had you an occupation over there before you came here?—No. I was 15 years old when I started away from Poland to come over to this country. 3570. Why did you leave?—I had relatives living in this country, and my father gave me 20 roubles to come over here to this country. He thought perhaps I should be able to learn a trade over here to get on. 3571. Your father gave you 20 roubles, and you came over here?—Yes. 3572. Had you any difficulty in coming away?—No, none at all, nothing stopped me from coming. 3573. Nobody stopped you from coming?—No. 3574. How much did the journey cost you?—All I can remember is that I had about 6s. 6d. left when I arrived in London. 3575. What happened to ybu when you arrived?—1 followed the people that came over in the same boat that I came by into the East End of London, and there I went into a place. They could see I had just come over, and there was a boot-finisher living in the same house, and he said it would be very wise for me to start learning the finishing trade. 3576. You stopped therewith him?—Yes, I stopped there three months. 3577., Learning the boot-finishing,?—I learnt the boot- finishing for three months, and I had to sleep and eat during the three months while I was learning to know it. 3578. You did not. get any wages?—No. 3579. Were there other .people stopping where you wer© 1—Yes, it was a seven-roomed house in Spitalfields, and they found me a lodging there and to eat, at the same time that I was learning the trade. 3580. What hours were you made to work?—From 6 till 12 as a rule, barring Thursday night. Then it was a rule we always worked all night. 3581. What isthe reason pf tfi^t on Thursday night? —It was all according as when the Sabbath comes in. In the winter time, when the Sabbath comes in early, they are working all night to make up for time they will be leaving off earlier. 3582. Do you know how these greeners usually come. Do they come in the same way as you came?—Yes. 3583. Do they usually have money with them?—As a rule now very seldom one of them comes over that would not have 5 or 10 roubles in his possession, because they know before they start that they must pay a certain amount for learning a trade. 3584. They have to pay ?—Yes. 3585. So they come over provided with some roubles to do that ?—-Yes. 3586. A rouble is 2s. ?—Yes. 3587. What happens to these people when they land as a rule ?—As a rule, the first thing they do is to go and look for a place where they can learn a trade, if they have a chance. 3588. Does anybody meet them on arrival?—There are people there from the congregation or the Shelter, who take them off the ship, and take them to a place down in Leman Street. 3589. The Shelter ?—-Yes. 3590. You did not go there yourself?—No. 3591. What happens to a man when he arrives, say, with 10 roubles in his pocket ?—He has to pay 10s. for learning any trade he wants to go into. 3592. He pays that down?—Yes, he has to pay 10s. down. 3593. And that is to learn the trade ?—Yes. 3594. And they lodge him and feed him ?—No, he has got to lodge and feed himself. 3595. Were you lodged and fed?—I was. 3596. Because you were paid nothing ?—No ; I was paid nothing. 3597. How long does it take as a rule for a man to learn before he begins to earn wages?—It is all according. If a man comes over who is a shoemaker at home, it does not take him so long to learn the lasting or finishing as it would take someone to learn who was a carman at home. 3598. Do many come over who are shoemakers over there? Is there a large shoe-making industry where they come from ?■—-Where they oome from tfiey make the shoe right out, whatever orders they get. 3599. The one man?—Yes; when they come over here they have only got to learn a part of it. 3600. Numbers of people who come over here have no trade at all?—There is a lot of them come over who have no skilled trade at all. 3601. They might be labourers ?—A good many come over here who are labourers. 3602. Of course, the man who has worked at shoe- making before, learns the shoe-making quickly, but as regards a man who has not learned shoe-making before, or who is not a shoe-maker, how long does it take him to learn the finishing or lasting ?—About 10 years ago it would take him about two months to leair the boot-finishing or the lasting, but at the present time he can learn it in a week. 3603. Why is thaH—On account of the machinery. 3604. They use machinery in these shops ?—Yes ; very much. 3605. So he can learn it in a week?—Yes; becausei2r EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mi\ B . ' it is only part 6f the woarlC jjtoey .. to take : a brush and paint in a bottom, arid he is a mechanic. 29M^(M2^ 3606. After he has learned that, what does he get then ?—They start him off at 5s. a week. 3607. You say 'he comes over here with 10 roubles in his pticket ?—Yes. - 3608. That is 20s. ?—Yes. • 3609. He pays 10s, of that ,away for a premium to learn the trade ?—^-Yes. 3610. Then what happens ? How does he get on on the remaining money1? He gets no pay?—He gets no pay for four weeks. .... , r 3611. In any case ?—In no case, unless when it comes to;,the ,end of the week, if he has a good master. who likes:i tp , give him a shilling, or, sixpence, but very seldom you' find one. 3612. (Chairman.) I suppose this is a kind of appren- ticeship ?~Yes. V. ....... 3613.' It would occur in pretty nearly all trades. 3614. ;(Major JUvans-Gordon.) Just so. ..You say you have been here 23 years ?—Yes. 3615.' Have you noticed any change in your trade of shoe-making ?~Yes, a very great change. 3616. What sort of change?—If you would! allow me to tell you, I will not' keep you long,' but if you will not interrupt me, I will tell you from beginning to end. About 23 years ago, when I started my trade, we worked at home under a condition ^of what we? call the sweat- ing masters, and, after I got out of my apprenticeship, i started earning 2s. a day, and worked my w;ay up to 35s. a week. Of course, it is true that I have had to work very long hours, and when it has coriie to the seventh day, instead of enjoying myself, I simply had to lay arid rest my bones, because I worked so hard the whole week. That went on until about 1887, and we heard of some gentlemen come down the East End of London from the West End, because1 the cry was sa great about the sweating that was going on in %he East End, which has been going on very much" in the East End. A gentlemen came down from the West End, who told us. he would take us to the House' of Lords', and there he will get rid of the sweating, and they will try and get us indoor workshops!. . This very same gentle- man has. given : evidence-here before you, two or three weeks ago. 3617. Who is that ?—If .I am allowed to, mention the name, it is Mr. Arnold White. He came dewii into t^eW dens. I iam a Jew myselfy and. I am proud of my religion, but if people such as that come down and instruct these poor boot finishers, -when they have been sweated all night, that they should come out in front trf th^LorSs dirty, and such things "as that, such people I do not hold with. . * 3618; Never mind about1 that. You say they came down for the Sweating Commission ?—-Yes. ; 3619. What was; the result of the Sweating Com- mission £—The result was nothing. It did not ease it1 oft. It' did not take anything off the sweating at all, and the sweating still went on till 1890. * 36.20; Thef Commission was in l886. There was no result you say ?—No, I have been working, under the saitter sweating condition^ afterwards. . . . 3621., Till. 1890 ?—Yes. . 3622. What happened then?—In 1890 the English Boot and .Shoe Operatives Union told the foreign work- menin the East End of London that it would be time they should come out of their sweating, dens, and come out and strike for indoor workshops as a body, in the East' End of London.' It hurt' us; v'ery much, but we came out, and stood out with the English-' until "we' gained our demand. * - - 3623; Th© home work was done away with P—Yes. ,.3624.' You went into factories?—Yes, we, were pro- mised a .uniform statement of wages for London," that they should pay us an union rate of wages, and supply , workshops < and' lighting free- of , charge. • We went on life that for two years, but during those two years none of us could grumble. We earned.^nice money,, and we" worked vfery ishort*. hours,r "and we went "home < in time that,ywe, shouldr berable to .see -our children,and not life it was before, wh&n we could not see ourchildren, from one Saturday till the other, Those workshops we 3625. How do you mean you could not see your chil- dren?—We went aWay on Sunday morning at six o'clock, to wo^ in the^ sweating detis^ and' when we got home at twelve o'clock, the children were asleep, and we went away the next morning the same time. 3626. Then came the strike, arid then came the re- formed conditions, under which men worked in these big factories, with good wages, and you had nothing to complain ofP—No. 3627. Then- after that what happened ?—It hap- pened that the employers in the East End started to break away from their association, and started to re- duce wages, and to give work out of doors back to the old Sweating' again. 3628. From 1890. to 1892 things were all rights ?—Yes. -3629. And after 1892 they began to. change?—Yes, and the machinery began to come about, and wages were reduced very: much. Then, eight years ago, I had been' getting for a box-calf boot finishing 5s. 6d. a dozen, and two weeks ago I went after work in a firm in Hackney Road, and was offered for the. same boot 2s. a dozen. I was called up in the workshop where that work is done, and there were six Polish Catholics sitting and doing them for the price of 2s. per dozen. 3630. How long does it take to do a dozen?—When I have got 5s. 6d. a dozen for them, I have done 18 pair a day. 3631. Working what hours?—Working 12 hours a day. 3632. Do you mean 12 hours working, or with an interval for food?—With an hour for dinner. 3633. What do you earn now ?—If I should do '18 pair of those a day, I would only have 3s., and it would take me the same amount of hours to do them in. 3654. What do you attribute this evil to P- 3635. (Chairman.) Do you earn now as. a day, work- ing the same number of hours ?- 3636. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you working at the boot trade now?;;—I am a casual labourer now. 3637. Where ?—Anywhere I can get to. 3638. You have given up the shoe business?—Yes, because it waS impossible to support five or six for 14s. a week, and pay 7s. 6d. rent out of it. 3639. You could not earn a living at your trade any more?—No. 3640. What do you attribute this change to?—It is like this: I went into a firm in Commercial Street, where they offered me out a shoe at Is. 9d. a dozen, after it is knifed, to finish, and if I was to do two dozen of them a day, and they want me to take them home to do them and find my own grindery to do them with, and go back to the shop, it would leave me clear half a crown a day to work for 12 hours. As a casual labourer, if I only do 12 hours' regular work on a day I would have 6s., getting 6d. an hour. 3641. What is the cause of this depression in wages and the change ?—The cause is a good deal to do with machinery and unskilled labour. 3642. Machinery,, you. say, is one cause and unskilled labour the other cause ?—Yes. ....... 3643. Do you mean by unskilled labour, foreigners arriving here ?—Yes. ..••• ' - 3644. You say they come and depress wages because there are always numbers of them ready to be em-' ployed?—Yes. ' ' 3645. What is the class of work done in the East End—shoe work ? Is it good work or bad work ?—In the East End I cannot call it leather work. I should call1 it more paper work than leather work that is done in the;: East End of London. 3646. Slipper and boot making ?—No ; I have nothing at all to do with the slipper trade,: and I: have" no idea of the slipper , trade. All L have an idea of is the boot and shoe finishing. ..... 3647. (Chairman.) Does it depend on th© material or the labour when you say it is paprer work ?—It depends on the material. A man like me is . a finisher, and .if I take out a dozen of paper heels I must make them, look like leather, put more labour into them, aiid get les§ pay than I .would get out Of a dozen leather hdeis, ancl' if would 'be' easier to d'd $he leather heels,-' > ~ ?..MD^ES ,0F-,^YZDE^CE r 3648. (Major Evans-Gov don.) You have given up your shoe trade because you say it is impossible to ' earn a living at it?—It is impossible for me to earn a living at the shoe trade; that is all I can say. During the 23 years I have been in this country I have never applied to any charitable institution for any help, neither have I been in any criminal court, and I have always been loyal, and done my best to support my family, if .it was possible. Last winter I have seen the times my children 'have come home from school and I did not have a crust of bread to give them. No- body knew it; and I made the best of it. I had a stone laying here on my chest before I started speak- : ing, but n*ow it is coming out I am getting easier, and I am proud to come in front of you gentlemen and tell you the conditions that people have to live under in the East End of London, which the West End people have no idea of. If West End people came in front of you they would not have any idea at all. Those other people living in the East End of London are the jpeople to come up in front of you gentlemen, and state to you the conditions people have to live under. I, as a tradesman being 23 years in this country, have ta gr» out in a morning to look round and see if I can get a brick labourer's job, or swinging a sledge-hammer, or anything else to earn bread for my children. -3649. What can you earn as a casual labourer ?—If I have 12 hours' work a day I would have 6s. If I had that all the year round I, would not ask for any trade. We get 6d. an hour. 3650. 6d. an hour at the docks ? — At the docks mostly.v 3651. (Chairman,) About how many hours can you get a week ? Can you get 6d. an hour all through the week ?-—I get a little every day, and when the week comes rofund i earn just as much as I would have earned in my own trade by working all the hours that God Almighty sent. 3652. Take the week round as an ordinary week. Can you earn £1 a week P—I have earned as much as 30s. as a labourer. 3653. Can you do that all the year through ?—No, I am not a permanent labourer. Those permanent men get 24s. a week wages from 8 to 4, and what they do before 8 or after, 4 they get 6d. an hour for. 3654. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you have to stand outside the dock gates and take your chance %—Yes.. 3655. With English working men P—'Yes. .... <3656. As a casual labourer, miact^Y#s.^;K ; v^^ ^ 3657. You say, being a foreigner yourselfthafrone ;pf 29 May' 190 the reasons, at all events, for this state of things; :igvhy the likes of me are thrown out of work, ana have, to go and look for other jobs. J • • * 3662. You say yourself you, as a foreigner—a skilled man—have Loen thrown out of your employment by un- skilled foreigners from abroad ?-—By machinery and un- skilled foreigners. ... 3663. By the two things together ?—Yes., ; 3664. That is, they a^e now able to employ unskilled men at these machines; and therefore you/ a skilled man, have no longer a chance ?—Yes. (Chairman.) What was the cause of the reduction p • (Major Evans-Gordon.) Machinery and foreign immi- gration from abroad are the two main causes? (Mr. Lyttelton.) Machinery and unskilled labour;, 3665. (Major Evans-Gordon.) This labour we are tally- ing about is labour, which comes chiefly from abroad ?— In the East End there are English employers who em- ploy skilled mechanics for tradesmen, and they pay them a proper rate of wages, but a place' ;wfeere:;th^y used to employ 30 finishers before the machinery only employs now six,, and all the rest are boys and so on, and unskilled men; -■ ■ :' y . ' ' % ... (The proceedings were adjourned for a. short time, ) " (Major Evans-Gordon:) With your permission, . my Lord, I would like for convenience sake to interpose a witness at this stage, Dr. Tyrrell. (Chairman.) Certainly. ' Dr. Francis Astley Cooper Tyrrell, called in; and Examined. 3666. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you medical officer to the London School Board?—Yes ; and surgical officer to the Royal London Ophthalmic Hospital, City Road. 3667. (Chairman.) Are you medical officer to the whole School Board ?—There are several oculists ap- pointed by the School Board, and I am one of them. 3608. What district have you to deal with ?—At pre- sent I am dealing with the Brixton and Tooting dis- trict of the School Board. 3669. Not the East End?—No; but I see a great many East End children on account of my connection with the Royal London Ophthalmic Hospital. 3670. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What are you prepared to tell us?—-I wrote to the secretary a short time ago to inform him that cases had been sent to me which had been returned from America, aliens who had gone out to America, and had been examined by the im- migration officers at certain ports in America, and sent liack, not to Poland, but to London. So that there is a possibility of them accumulating in this country, on ac- count of the fact that the shipping companies find it cheaper to send them back to London than to Poland. I had two boys sent to me the other day; and I should like to show you this letter which was forwarded to me from the Jewish Board of Gu_ardiahs. This was sent on from a Dr. Cohen—I do not know Dr. Cohen, but it was sent on to me with the boys who arrived at the hospital. 3671. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) From whom? — From the . Jewish Board of Guja^ia^s^ under^whose .£a$g the boys are at present. The letter is as follows : " 1 am sending you to-morrow two lads named Solomon and Leib Elb, who have been returned from America;^they having1 beetle tefusedrsadmissioh by ■. the I imbrication officers, as it is alleged they are. .sufferingwith a !i ^ Dr.F.A.C. Tyrrell. disease of the eyes called trachoma. The boys originally 29 May 1902. went from Russia to America, and never passed through-- London; but our correspondents both in Boston and in .New York have consigned these two boys to my Board with instructions to have them cared for, and' when they have been cured from their disease, to "be reshipped to Boston, U.S.A. Evidently a great dqal of troiibje lias been taken over these boys, as a direct application was made by the United Hebrew Charities of New. York to . the authorities in Washington; • But without sU'dcess^ Mr. Leonard L. Cohen, the president, who saw these' boys to-day, desired me to saythathe woul4ybe;much obliged if you could, have these^ ladsh£jxamdne*l >by saii eminent oculist, and,; when . treated,■ 'a, certificate! obtained from such a person whose naitie woxtld>'bear- some weight, with #ie.. Amerioan authgrija^ ^Quld there be any difficulty iri securing their admissioii int;Q the States." 3672. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have other cases of that kind from America reached you?—Before those boys came to me I had some half-a-dozen cases of pa- tients suffering from the same disease; i.e.-,. chronic trachoma, or granular ophthalmia, which is practically an incurable disease. 3673. Is it infectiousIt -is.. contagious^,--certainly. The patients get well for a time; and if you send them off'for a seia voyage, at the end of their journey they may be as bad as ever again if they have not had treat- ment. ...... ' - " .. ' 3674. Have you had other qases which have ifeeij sent back from America?—I have had on6 or two, //; 3675. Do the .aliens who arrive here from pQlai\d.and stop in this country suffer in the same way ?-^To a' very large extent. I should think there are, on an *Vera^J,•i*8 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr. F. A. Ci 80 patients a week suffering from chronic granular Tyrrell. ophthalmia, and certainly more than half the cases which -—~ I see are aliens. My hospital deals very largely with the ^ 1902. End, where the aliens are; but outside that district I do not think you would see so many. I was Ophthalmic House Surgeon to St. Thomas's Hospital at one time, and there we did not see very many; it was an exception to see them; but even there there have been cases among a certain number of aliens. 7fo76.(Chairman.) Why should this disease attack people in the East End more than in any other district— is it from weak blood, or any reason of that kind ?—I think that aliens are peculiarly subject to this disease. You do not see it amongst English people so much. But why I call the attention of the Commission to this point is that lately I have had several English children suffer- ing from the same disease. 3677. (Lord Rothschild.) Disease in the eyes?-—Yes. It seems to me a very serious thing for these children going to Board Schools and affecting other children of the same class with a chronic contagious disease, which may eventually lead to blindness. ^ 3678. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) What is the cause of the disease—is it referable to habits ?—I suppose it would be certainly more prevalent in the case of unclean habits, but it is also very largely a disease of race. 3679. Of what race?—The Jewish people are pecu- liarly prone to trachoma. 3680. Do you say that half the cases in the Ophthalmic Hospital come from the East End ?—Half the cases of granular ophthalmia are amongst the aliens; they are nearly all Jews—'Polish Jews. -3681. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How many of these cases among children do you see a week in your work connected with the Hospital and the School Board?—I should say I see certainly more than 10 children a week. 3682. (Lord Rothschild.) Is not this disease very pre- valent in all German schools, whether they are Jewish schools or not ?—I think that is the case. 3683. And is it generally attributed to the children working too hard in the schools ?—I do not know that I could say that. 3684. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your point is that you think there is danger that these people should bring the disease from abroad ?—Undoubtedly. 3685. They have sent them back from America, you say ?—That has only just commenced; I have not seen more than half a dozen cases of people who have been stopped here on their way to America, or who have been sent back. 3686. If a medical examination was made in the River Thames, for instance, where these people arrive largely, do you suppose you would find among the arrivals of children and others many cases of this granular oph- thalmia ?—I am quite confident that you would find cases of people suffering from this disease. 3687. You think that is a wrong thing, and that they should not be allowed to come like that?—Certainly I think so. 3688. You think it a dangerous thing to spread among other children ?—Certainly. 3689. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to these ten cases that you see in a week, is that over the whole of London P — The district which the hospital drains is chiefly Whitechapel. 3690. You are the oculist of the School Board ?—I was going to say in my district of the School Board I have not met any case of trachoma, but that is out-side the area. I have inquired of the other oculists who have been attending the schools in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel and they have come across cases in the schools, but 1 have not so far ascertained whether these are th# same cases that I have seen at the hospital or not. 36&. Where is it that you see these ten cases a week ? —At the Royal London Ophthalmic Hospital—the old Moorfields, but it is now rebuilt. 3692. That is in the City Road ?—Yes. It is quite a new hospital—it has only been open some two years now. 3693. Po they come there from the East End of London ?—That part of London. 3694. Can you tell at all what sort of proportion of thsse cases come from the East End ?—I cannot give you exact figures, but the majority of them are in that district. I have not come across any myself outside the district, and I have inquired of several other oculists who have attended at hospitals in other parts of London, and they do not come across the number of cases I have come across at the Royal London Ophthalmic Hospital or the Metropolitan Hospital, which drains the same dis- trict. 3695. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) I think it is a very serious matter if diseased children, or diseased persons of any kind, are sent from America expressly to England. Have you anything except that letter which you have put in which has led you to that conclusion ?—I have no other written evidence in support of that statement. 3696. Never mind about its being written. What was in your mind when you made the statement?—I have seen at least half a dozen cases of patients who have either been stopped by the shipping authorities, who refuse to take them to America if they find out there is trouble with their eyes. They come up to the hospital to have a certificate, distinctly saying that they are free from this disease, so that they can travel to America. 3697. Those cases would be children in England who have been refused by the shipping companies for con- signment to America ?—They state here that they are on their way to America, but they never get further than London, because the shipping companies will not take them. 3698. They are transmigrants ?—Yes. 3699. Are there any cases, except these two cases that you have mentioned, that have come within your ex- perience of having been returned from America and consigned to England?—I have had no more from the Jewish Board of Guardians. I have had two, I think, who have stated that they had been sent back—that is, about three or four who have been stopped on their way—so that the thing is quite in its infancy now. There is no question of its being seriously of importance now, but in the future it seems to me it will be important. 3700. (Mr. Vallance.) In your work in connection with the School Board in the Brixton and Tooting district, is it your duty to make any periodical examina- tion of the whole of the children in the schools?—Yes, that is so. 3701. Hare you in that district the children of the y©ry poor, or are there many very poor persons resident in that district?—It is not a very poor district. Most of the children are rather of the better class. 3702. When you make this general examination do you find few or many of such cases ?—I have not found in my district, so far, any case of this disease. 3703. Of course in your hospital work you simply take the cases as they come ?—Yes. 3704. You are not able to say definitely whether they come from the East End or not?—I can say definitely that a very large number of them come from the East End. 3705. (Chairman.) You said you thought there were two cases other than the cases referred to in this letter ? —Yes. 3706. Were they what we call these alien immigrants, or English ?—They have all been alien immigrants. 3707. How did they come back ? They did not come through the Jewish Board of Guardians, but did private individuals send them to you when they arrived back?— I gathered they came up on their own account. One woman who came to me was brought up by a relation ii this country. She could not speak a word of English herself, but this relation interpreted for her, and what I gathered from her was that she had been trying to get into America via Canada. 3708. Do you know what ultimately became of these two cases ?—They attended at my hospital for, I think, about three or four weeks as out-patients, and I have not seen any more of them since. I refused to sign a certi- ficate, because I thought that probably the thing would break out on the voyage out to America again, and they would be refused. 3709. For general information may I ask the derivation of the word " trachoma " ?—I cannot tell you at the moment. 37X0. Has it increased in this country at all of late ?— Not in my experience. I have only been at the eyeMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 129 hospital for two yoars, but what I gather from others is that it is not increased very much, and there has not Ifoeen a very large increase anywhere certainly outside London. 3711." And almost all the cases, you say, are of foreigners ?—Yes. 3712. Have you found cases where the foreigners have communicated it to our children?—No, I cannot say I J)r. F. A. C. have. I have had families of children who have come up Tyrrell. together suffering from the same trouble. ~- 3713 Foreigners?—Yes. 29 ay 19(/a 3714. It is contagious, and not infectious?—Yes. 3715. That you gather from the families who have come up before you P—Yes. Mr. B., recalled. Mr. B. (Witness.) I should like to say that I hope, my Lords .and gentlemen, you will not take this as a religious ►question, because I can point out certain places where it not only affects Jews, but it affects the Gentiles just as well as the Jews. For instance, a remark has been made •here that Jews do not want to marry English people. It is just as great a sin for Catholics to marry Protestants -as it is for Jews to marry Gentiles. That is one in- stance. Then I can give another instance. There are sweating dens in the East End of London where there are Polish Catholics sweated just as much as Jews, and I can point out one sweating den, not far from Commercial ^Street, where there are five Englishmen being sweated also. Therefore I hope you will not take it to be a religious question—it is a general question. 3716. (Jkfr. Vallance.) You have been in England 23 .years ?—Yes. 3717. Was this sweating system in existence when you came?—'Yes. 3718. But there were very few foreigners then in the !East End of London, were not there ?—In the East End of London, when I started to learn my trade, I was started learning it by a foreigner. 3719. Would you say the sweating system was going on then ?—Yes. 3720. If there were but few of these foreigners in the East End of London at that time, would the sweating Ibe' mainly by English people?—At that time English- men were sweated just as well as foreigners. 3721. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You spoke of what took place after the Sweaiting Committee of the House of Lords. There was an agreement then come to, wa.s there not, between the employers and the employed in the boot trade?—In the tailoring trade. 3722. The boot trade I am talking of now ?—No, not an the boot trade. We went on under the sweating just the same. 3723. Was not there an agreement under which the workers were brought into factories or into large places where they worked?—After the Sweating Commission such people as Flatau's and Lyons started taking their lasters and finishers indoors, but there were not many "who did it—not the small manufacturers. 3724. Did not they provide for it to a very consider- table extenit ? Was there not what was called the indoor agreement?—That did not stop them very long. 3725. What has happened since? Has more work "been taken home since than before?—Since 1892 the work has been taken home, and there is any amount of it taken home at the present time certainly. There is plenty of work, but they do not pay anything for it. 3726. You say that indoor agreement does not operate -very largely now?—No, not in the East End of London ^especially—only in those places where they have got machinery. Whatever the machinery cannoi do, when they have more than the machinery can do, they have put bills in the windows, " outdoor finishers," of " out- door lasters wanted." 3727. Has the use of machinery increased very much in the East End of London ?—Yes. 3728. And it is still increasing ?—'Yes. 3729. Greeners do not work with machinery, do they 2 They do not work by the machine, but the employer there are lots waiting for work. • The d.Muand for it is not considerable ?—There is a very considerable number who employ labourers. for^4 YPf ?plymS than there is employment at R Iwt ? 7 may start Off to work at 8 o clock in the morning, and at 12 o'clock at noon if they see that there is not any more for me to do' R130 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. B. they pay me for the four hours, and I have to go away -—- and wait till the next day ; or perhaps that same clay I May 1902 j- not get any work elsewhere; and, therefore, I must take the 2s., go home, and make the best of it. 3748. Where do you principally get employment ; is it at the docks ?—Yes, that is the principal place. If I have got no work, very likely somebody offers- me a job to move things from one place to another, and I sum not afraid to do it in order to earn 2s., or to dp any of those .things in order to (support my family. 3749. I suppose no pref erence is given to the English- born person over the foreigner, or to the foreigner over the English-born person. Supposing In the labouring work do you mean? 3750. Yes, I am speaking of your labour?—The- Englishman gets it first. 3751. Are you sure of that ?—Yes. 3752. Why?—Because the foreigners are very little seen in the labouring work; the foreigners are mostly connected with trades ra/ther than with the labour work. 3753. You do not understand me, I think. Supposing two men come to the dock gate at 8 o'clock in the morn* ing, does the person who employs them, if he wants only- one of them, give any preference to the Englishman over the foreigner or to the foreigner over the English- man?—If he wants them he takes them as they come. 3754. He does not care which is which ?—No. 3755. (.Major Evans - Gordon.) Are there many foreigners outside the dock gates applying now for work ?" —At the present time I can only see myself at the gate- where I get on, and I am lucky if I get a job. Mr. Cf Mr. "C.," called; and Examined. 3756. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You do not wish to give ^lur name?—No. 3757. What is your religion ?—A Jew. 3758. What countryman are you?—A Pole. 3759. How long have you been in England ?—32 years. 3760. Wlhat induced you to come to this country?—I was left an orphan, and I had a brother here, and he sent for me to come here. 3761. Had you any money when you arrived here ?— Yes, my relations helped me with my fare to come to London. 3762. What happened on your arrival ?—I went straight off from Poland to Germany, and came from Germany to England ; and when I came to England my brother found me a place, and I learnt the trade of shoe-making, finishing. 3763. Slippers or boots?—Boots and shoes. 3764. Your brother taught you the trade, did he?— My brother did not teach me, but he found me a place. 3765. Who was the person you worked for then; was he a foreign employer P—Yes. 3766. Did he keep a factory ?—No, a private house, taking work out from the factory. 3767. What were you paid when you came over here? —They paid me 50 per cent, more then than they pay now. . 3768. You were making a better living then?—Yes, because the employers paid better then than they do now in the place where I was working 20 years and 8 months —I was working for one place, and I left last June. 3769. Why ?■—'Because I could not get a living ; work came down to such a. low price that it was impossible for me to get a living. 3770. Have you got a family ?—Yes. 3771. How many ?—Six children and me and my wife. 3772. Were you a skilled man in the finishing ?—Yes. 3773. And now your work has got so bad that you cannot make a living at it any more ?—Yes. 3774. What 'are you doing now ?—At the present time I am out of work. 3775. After you learned your trade here and were doing well, what were you earning in the way of wages? —After I learnt my trade, I started earning gradually more and more, and then I started for myself by taking work out from the factory and working at my own place. I employed three men and myself; but, of course, we had to work hard to get a living. 3776. How much could you earn then ?—I could earn between £3 and £4 a week. 3777. As an employer and a working man yourself ?—■ Only as a middleman. 3778. But you worked yourself, too ?—I worked my- self, certainly. 3779. And it stood you in about £3 a week ?—Between £3 and £4 a week. 3780. At that time?—Yes. 3781. What has led to that coming to an end? —Our position during these last 12 years, as my friend has stated before, since we forced the em- ployers to give us workshops, and they promised to give us workshops, and signed an agreement with the Board of Arbitration that they would provide- us with workshops and light and fire free. Unfortu- nately, after two years, they broke away from that, and the same employers who promised to give us the work- shops and light and fire free, took us one by one into their office and asked us to sign a paper on the condi- tion that if we would not follow the rules of the union we would get employment. 3782. All the arrangements that had been made were- broken through, and you reverted back to the old sweating conditions?—Yes. A statement of wages- was drawn up by masters and men, and the lowest clas- of work was paid 3s. 6d. per dozen. 3783. (Chairman.) Was that agreement made by the- union—by Mr. Freake?—Yes. 3784. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And that is now all broken through ?—For the commonest pair of shoes we had 3s. 6d. a dozen. 3785. That was the lowest minimum wage?—Yes, by the agreement. 3786. What would be paid for that class of work now?—Between 2s. and 2s. 3d. for the same class of work. 3787. Had you to find anything out of that?—Yes if I take a dozen pairs of boots home, I get 2s. 3d. or 2s. 6d., and I have to find my light and fire and all. grindery; and after that all I have left to myself is- 2b. 2d., and 4d. has got to come off that for expenses. Then I have to lose the time in taking the goods back to the shop. 3788. How long would it take you to do a dozen like ' that ?—Six hours. 3789. How many hours a day would you have to work, to make a living at that ?—I could not make a living at it. If I were to try to make a living at it, I would kill myself at the same time. 3790. You would have to work such long hours ?—Yes.. 3791. To your knowledge, are those sweating condi- tions as bad now as they were before the strike?—Since 1892. 3792. Just as bad now as. they were before ?—Since they threw us out of the workshops the sweating system*, is now a thousand per cent, worse than it was 30 years ago. 3793. It is now worse than ever?—'Much worse now than it was before. 3794. What do you attribute that to?—The cheap- labour. 3795. The constant arrival of people from abroad, do you mean?—While we were in the workshops, the fresh arrivals did not have a chance to come in to learn the- trade, because the employers would not allow them to* come in and occupy a place for nothing. 3796. Now they can come in and learn the trade ?— In a private house they can come in and do as they- please. 3797. What do they get) when they comer like that1—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 131 the " greeners " ?—It is useless my repeating what my friend has said before; it is the same tiling. 3798. Then the continual arrival of these people from -abroad pushes out the people who axe already here?— Yes. 3799. With regard to the prices paid for high-priced „goods and low-priced goods, are the same prices paid for the work ?—If there is a man who understands the -quality of the articles, he understands what price to ask for; but many men do not understand the difference between common and good articles, and they take what they get. 3800. They do not know the difference ?—'No. 3801. Therefore the employer takes advantage of their ignorance; is that what you mean?—Certainly, that ds itv. 3802. Do you. say that these people are constantly 'being'sent for by their relations?—It is generally the rule if these people try to get more benefit they soon send for the fresh ones, rather than they would employ .people who have been here a number of years. 3803. Because they can sweat them?—Yes. They -cannot sweat any more those people who- have been here a number of years, because it has all been sweated out of. them. 3804. The new supply of people coining in is an ad- vantage to the employer ?—That is it. 3805. Do you know whether these people fear perse- cution in Russia?—It is all according; those who do not behave themselves have got to fear; they have got to go according to the rules of their country. 3806. Is the treatment they get here better than that which they get there ?—-They have got good treat- : ment here; they have everything free; they can do ar> they like. 3807. But their treatment (by the employers, is that good ?—No, far from it. If they were to be treated well by their employer, the employer would not. throw us out and tell us to go back to the certain places where we mine from. If we made a good living, the employefi could afford to pay a proper wage; but now we have to go ba&k; everything is against us, and everybody takes advantage of us. If the workman has to work at home, the landlords take advantage. 3808. (Oan you give instances of suffering and trouble ' of this kind ?—We have to suffer ; some cannot afford to keep up their places, and they are compelled to suffer. 3809. Do they overcrowd ?—They are compelled »to. I can get work now at home, if I were to take my kitchen or my bedroom for a workshop; I can have * -work;now, but I have not got any place where I cau do it; I have not got the convenience for it. 3810. Many of these boot firms, and more particu- larly ,the small employers, cannot make a profit, or .make the thing do, unless they sweat the people below them, because others are sweating • all round'?—Yes, ' they are all the same. 3811. Therefore, even the good employers have to pay lower wages?—The good employers have to suffer for the bad ones. (Chairman.) In your sense, sweating is synonymous ■with under-payment ? {Major Uvans-Gordhn.) Yes—paying the lowest wages &nd working the longest hours. (Witness.) There are employers who employ people indoors and pay for a workshop land light and fire, and pay them Is. more a dozen. These finishers, for in- stance, work at. the employer's place; the employer finds tjiem a workshop and light and fire, and then the employer pays them Is. more a dozen than those who work out. 3812. (Major ^Evans-Gordon.) Why is that?—Because these inen work indoors, and they cannot cut one an- other down. 3813. But the outdoor ones can cut one another down ?—Yes. 3814. {Chairman.) Is there not some regulation as 'to trade price; are the outdoor people subject to the " trades union regulations ?—-That has been broken up. 3815. You mean that the agreement was broken up ? —Yes; there is a trades union in existence; but those men who belong to the ranion have to work ac- cording to .the union rules. 6144 3816. At the union rates?—Yes. Mr, C 3817. Has this extra payment of Is. in. the work- 29 May 1902 shop anything to do with the trades union rate?—It is _ Is. below the union rate. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The witness's point is that the employer gives Is. more in the workshop, because the people outside can compete with one another, and cut down the price to any extent they like. 3818. (Chairman.) Why cannot the employer cut- down the people in the workshop to the price of the people outside ?—The people who work indoors are only a small number, say, there are 20—they are combined together, and one tells another the price. 3819. Why does not the employer send the work all out, instead of having some people working inside at a high price and at a.loss to him?—It is convenient for some employers to have their work done indoors; and some of them are ashamed to break away from their promise. 3820. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are they a better class of workmen who work indoors?—'The same. 3821. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Among all these foreign shoemakers working in the shoemaking trade are many of them members of the union?—Oh, yea. 3822. Then, what benefit do they get from the union ? —They get a benefit when they are sick. 3823. But in wages and hours ?—They are only allowed to work 52 hours or 54 hours a week; and they must not work for a weekly wage under 30s., those who belong to the union. 3824. Are there many foreigners belonging to> that union?—Yes; there were 4,000 or 5,000 in the union, but, unfortunately, they had to break away by com- pulsion of the employers. 3825. Is any useful work done by the union existing now Thirty-two years ago. 3876. That was in what year?—<1870. 3877. After that, when did you enter this permanent employment for 20 years—do you remember the year? How many years was it after you arrived here ?—In 1883» or in 1882 ; something like that. 3878. About that?—Yes. 3879. You entered the employment of a certain firm ?' —Yes. 3880. And you stayed in that employment till when?' —Till last June. But in between the 20 years I left. 3881. I want you to go. on now, and tell us what hap- pened from 1892 till when you left—how long was that T —I left in 1890, 3882. Why did you leave then?—Because the em- ployer would not provide the workshops. 3883. Because he would not or could not ?—He could,, but he would not. 3884. He would not provide a workshop in accordance* with the agreement ?—With the agreement of the union. 3885. You left in 1890, for how long ?—Up to 1896. 3886. What were you doing between 1890 and 1896P _I went to work for a firm im Moor Lane.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 133 3887. Another firm ?—Yes. 3888. Then an 1896 you went 'back where ?—In 1896 I went back to the old place where I was employed before. 3889. And you remained in that employment till when ?—Till last July. 3890. From 1882 to* 1890 is eight years, .and from 1896 to now is six years, so you were wrong in saying you were 20 years in one employment, because you were 14 years in one place and six years in another ?—I reckoned in between. 3891. You, do not want to conceal anything, or any- thing of that kind ; it is a perfectly plain statement you wish to make?—Yes. 3892. Ate a matter oif fact, you were in one employ- ment for 14 years ?—Yes; if you take off the six. 3893. And you were six years in employment in Moor Lane?—-Yes. 3894. You. left that original employer because he would not provide a workshop ?—Yes. 3895. Why did you go ibaiok to him ?—This employer in Moor Lane forced me to sign my name on the condi- tion that I would not follow the union rules, and he would not give me employment, and I left him. 3896. Because youi would -not sign the (agreement?— I would not sign the agreement that I would leave the union. If I was to leave the union I should be in his employment. 3897. Are you a union man?—Niot now. Mr. C. 3898. Then you went back to the original man ?— 29 Mav 1902 Yes. —Z— 3899. And there you stopped till June last?—Yes. 3900. (Mr. Vallance.) That includes the time within which you were a middleman employing three men?— I was a middleman before I went to this man. 3901. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You came (here in 1870, and you went to this employment in 1882?—Yes. 3902. Between 1870 and 1882 you were working for different employers, and also you were a middleman yourself ?—-Yes. 3903. How long were you a middlemen yourself?— When I started to work for this man in 1882. 3904. Then you were a middleman ?—Yes ; from 1870 up to 1882 I worked for another man, a contractor who took work out from the warehouse, and I worked under him. 3905. Were you in one employment (practically from 1870 to 1882?—Yes. 3906. You were working for one man as a 'contractor ? —Yes. 3907. Then you 'started with this other man, in 1888,, and went on to 1890, and then broke off, and went t»> Moor Lane in 1896?—Yes. TENTH DAY. Monday, 2nd June 1902. present i The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford {Chairman), Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans-Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Yallance, Esq. Dr. Shirley Forster Mm 3908. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I believe you, are the Medical Officer of Health of the administrative county of London ?—I am. 3909. Have you held that office for 13 years?—Yes. 3910. In rtttuat office have your duties led you to deal with the question of overcrowding amongst other things in all parts of the county of London?—Yes, it has been my duty to make inquiries as to conditions of that sort, and to report to the London County Council. The actual administration of the law relating to overcrowding is vested in the sanitary authorities. 3911. I think we will deal with that a little later, but at present I think you have been, for the purpose of giving information to the Commissioners, in communi- cation with the Registrar-General in regard to the vari- ous points in connection with the influx of foreigners into London, especially into the East End of London ?— Yes, there are two sets of figures the Registrar-General has been good enough to supply me with for this pur- pose, which go beyond those published in the census returns. 3912. At present we will confine our attention to the Eiast End of London, and I suppose that part of the East End of London which is comprised in the Metro- politan Borough of Stepney ?—Yes. 3913. Am I right in (supposing th/at the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney consists of four sanitary areas— that is to say, the areas which existed previous tt the Act of 1899?—Yes. hy, called; and Examined. jjr ^ ^ Murphy. 3914. Those are Whitechapel, Sit. George's-in-the- 2 T,1Tm in™ East, Limehouse, and Mile End Old Town ?—Yes. 3915. Have you, taken out figures showing the per- centage of foreigners in those areas, in the county of London, comparing their numbers in 1891 with 1901 ?— I have. 3916. Would you give u& those ?—In 1891 Whitechapel had 24*1 per cent, of its population as foreigners. In 1901 the proportion was 31*8. In St. George-in-the- East in the two periods the proportions were 16*2 and 28*8. 3917. That is 16*2 *ais compared with 28*8?—Yes. In Limehouse 2*1 and 3*7; in Mile End Old Town 5*3 and 11*5. 3918. That shows the largest increase in St. George's- in-the-East and the smallest in Limehouse 21—Yes. 3919. Then the figures below that—the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney—form, I suppose, the sum?—Yes the sum of those figures 11*3 and 18*2, and I also added the Borough of Southwark, which I took for the purpose of comparison. It is a borough with a large working-class, population, and I use the figures a little later with re- gard to Southwark, so I put in these figures. They are 0*7 and 0*8. One sees that Southwark has been very little affected by the interval of time; it is a very small addition. 3920. I suppose it will be useful to bear in mind thaffc the largest increase is in St. George's-in-the-East and the smallest in Limehouse ?—Yes.134 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Dr. S..F. Murphy. 2 June ]902. 3921. It affeicfts the subsequent tables ?—Yes. 3922. Can you gi/ve us the. inctfeaise of the total (popu- lation of Stepney between those two census years t—• Yes, tha increase of the total population is 13,000. 3923. And' of the (foreign population?—That is over , 22,000. Consequently there has been a decrease in the native population of some 8,500. 3924. That decrease of population is found to exist in other parts of London?—That is so ; in certain dis>- tricts. In central London there is a tendency for the population to decrease owing to houses being pulled down, and the land being devoted to commercial build- ings, and so on. 3925. Therefore, if it had not ibeen for the large in- crease of the alien population we might have found a similar decrease in Stepney ?—I think it is very probable that would have occurred. I note also between 1881 and 1891 the increase was small, therefore tending to show that Stepney was getting more or less filled up. 3926. So mulch for the tactuail facts as to the increase of the population in those parts, and the increase of the foreign population. Now let us come to the subject of the second table, which is the table that shows over- 'orowding in tenements of less than five rooms ?—There .again I am indebted to the Registrar-General for details ■as to the four areas of Stepney which enable me to give them separately instead of Stepney as a whole. 3927. In the first place what do you exactly mean by overcrowding?—Overcrowding in the sense in which it is used in what I am saying now does not mean anything that infringes an Act of Parliament or a bye-law, but is a term used by the Registrar-General in the Census reports to indicate a proportion of population of more than two to a room in tenements of less than five rooms. 3928. More than two per (room, in tenements of less than five rooms'?—Yes. 3929. Two. per room is the (accepted re-housing stan- dard ?—Yes, two to a room is the standard which I know is that which the Government Departments and the London County Council proceed upon in re-housing in Tespect of population that is displaced. 3930. And (that is also adopted in Home Office Re- housing schemes?1—Yes. 3931. By overcrowding you imean anything over two per room in .a tenement which consists of les^ than five rooms ?—That is so. 3932. What does your table say occupants per room, and the total number of the occupants of such tenements ?—Yes. 3947. And that again generally follows the same lines ?—Very much. 3948. There is a great increase in St. George's-in-the- East, and, on the other hand, in Limehouse, which has the smallest foreign population, the figures are rather the other way ?—Yes. The increase in the population thus living in two, three, or four room tenements has been especially marked in St. George-in-the-East, and in Limehouse much less so, the population in the four room tenements having actually declined. 3949." I do not know that it is necessary to go into the details of that "here so long as we have these tables on the note and can refer to them. Now you come, I think, to the question of what we call the vital statis- tics ?—Yes, I have prepared some tables .showing death rate's in the Borough of Stepney and in the four areas I hiave before mentioned, and also in the Metropolitan Borough of Southwark, which I took for the purpose of comparison, and in London. I have stated these' in a taib.le in three periods, 1886 to 1890, 1891 to. 1895, and 1896 to 1900. They are each of them periods of five years, and they enable the census results to be used so .as to get accuracy of statement as to population. 3950. I suppose the best plan will be to take these three heads separately. First of ia.ll, the first column is '' Death Rate, All Causes (correlated for age and isex)." These figures are not very numerous—perhaps you will go through them and explain them ?—tl think it will be sufficient if I take the first and last periods for your purposes. 3951. Yes?—In 1886 to 1890, the first period, the death rate in Whitechapel was 24*18 per 1,000 ; in 1896 to 1900 it was 23*3'8. There was therefore a fall in the death rate. 3952. There the intermediate figure shows a slight in- crease?—Yes. I ought to mention with regard to the period 1891 to 1895, that it was a time when there was a great deal of influenza, which affected the death rates, and those figures I look upon as being more likely to be of a fluctuating chiaracter. 3953. (Major Uvans-Gordon.) What is the compara- tive figure underneath that line?—If one assumes 24*18 is 100, then 23*38 is 97. It is simiply done for conveni- ence. ' 3954. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is to say, it shows an increase between 1891 and 1895 of albout 6 per cent. ?— Yes. It brings them all into line for the purpose ofMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 135 comparison. In St. George-in-the-East, in the first period the death rate was 30*79, and in the last period 27-12. 3955. That is practically a reduction of about 12 per cent. ?—-Yes. In Limehouse the death rate was 27*84 in the first period, and 27*18 in the second, a very slight fall. In Mile End Old Town it was 21*64 and 21*04 in the two periods. In the whole Borough of Stepney it was 25 in the first period, and 23*82-in the last. ,3956. The Metropolitan. Borough of Southwark is about equal ?—Yes1, with a islight increase in the Second period. 3957. That is the death rate from all causes. Now, as to the birth rate ?—The birth rate in London fell between the two periods. It fell a little in Southwark, but in the Borough of Stepney it increased. In White- chapel the birth rate rose from 35*7 to 39*2. In St. George-in-the-East it rose from 39*9 to 43*3; in Lime- house it fell from 35*3 to 33*4. In Mile End Old Town it rose from 37*5 to 38*2. 3958. There again you have Whitechapel and St. George-in-the-East heading the poll?—Yes. 3959. But in this case, in Whitechapel the increase is rather more ?—Yes, a trifle more. 3960. Now as to infant mortality ?—Infant mortality, I miay say, is the proportion of deaths under one year to 1,000 births. In London there was an increase in these two periods from 153 to 161. Infant mortality is largely affected by such a condition as a hot summer, producing infantile diarrhoea, and a series of hot summers would emphasise that, and therefore I have given- the London figures, so that it may be possible tp see how far that condition of things may influence the figures of the other areas. In Whitechapel between the two periods the infant mortality fell from 170 to 144; in St. George-in-the-East it fell from 195 to 181; in Lime- house it rose from 191 to 204, and in Mile End Old Town it rose from 147 to 155. In Southwark also it rose from 172 to 186., 3961. (.Major Evans-Gordon.) It fell in Stepney?—It fell in Stepney as a whole, and rose in London. 3962. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) But it fell much- more largely in Whitechapel and St. George-in-the-East than anywhere else?—Yes, that is very noticeable. 3963 Can. you account for that in any way?—I am not able to state precisely with exact knowledge as to what it may be due to, but I read in these figures, taken as a whole, that if foreign immigration has ;had any effect at all; it has been in leading to the diminution of the death rate, both from all causes and the infant death rate. I may say, wihen I began to study these figures I was very much interested to■ se® what the result would be, because I had had experience of in- quiring for the London County Council into certain unhealthy areas in different parts of London occupied by the poor, mostly, of course, Christians, and I came to deal at a particular time with a large area in this district in the neighbourhood of Sandy's Road—Bell Lane. When I came to examine the death rates, which I had expected to find very high, in view of the condition of the houses and the prevailing conditions of the district, I found them very low. I was very much interested to learn how it was that people" who were living in close courts and crowded alleys under conditions that I was accus- tomed to find associated with high death rates wherever I had looked in London, had a low death rate. I had all sorts of thoughts floating in my mind as to what this could be due to. One ot them was as to whether people as they got old migrated from the locality. I asked those who were familiar with the habits of the population whether that practice did obtain at all, and I was told it did not. In the end, the only conclusion I could come to was that the difference in the death rate was due to the^ better care the inhabitants took of themselves and their mode of life. I got much evidence from people who were daily seeing them as to the absence of the use of alcohol. I was told they were a very abstemious people. Then I got the impression certainly that they " were very careful of their children, and that they led more regular lives than it is generally the habit of people living in the same class of house over here to lead. When I came to put these figures together I was particularly interested to find that the general life of them corresponds with what I had had experience of before in connection with the statistics of the Bell Lane 3964. How long ago was. that ?—In the early nineties. Since then, imore recently, I have had the death rates Murphy. of another area, ,a smaller one, it is true, but still, -—- the figures are large enough to teach lessons. That is " June 1902, in the neighbourhood of Backchurch Lane. There are a large number of little cottages there, and some of the 'houses, I am sure, are in a very 'bad state qua sani- tary condition. There again I got low death rates, and I think that the whole thing must be due to the more careful lives these people lead, and to their ability to safeguard themselves against disease in a much larger degree than the ordinary Christian population does. 3965. (Mr, Lyttelton.) And greater care of their chil- dren ?—I think greater care of their children is probably a large element in the result. 3966. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I think that ends that part of your evidence with regard to the facts on the over- crowding?—That is so. There was just a question as to whether the Commission would like any statement about phthisis particularly, which is especially asso- ciated with overcrowding. I have prepared reports at different times showing how very closely thei amount of phthisis in a population runs with overcrowding, but so far as I have been able to get any exact information, in one area occupied by aliens I have found the phthisis death rate low, although no doubt the overcrowding exists there. There is some compensation somewhere that disturbs the balance of the figures, 3967. Your experience of course leads you to different parts of London?—It does. 3968. Would you say that the overcrowding in Stepney is very considerably worse than it is in other parts ?— I am not able to speak precisely about that. I doubt very much whether the actual overcrowding that occurs has been sufficiently gauged in London. It is very difficult to find overcrowding in the ordinary way of life even by day visits. (See Q. 4785.) It has to be looked for by night visits, and. only sparsely has that- been done, but I should expect to find a great deal of overcrowding in Stepney. I should cer- tainly expect to find overcrowding worse in Stepney than in other districts of London, because there have been two factors at work, first of all the- ordinary current of population towards the centre which occurs with regard to every place round the centre of London, and also there has been the supplementary pressure of a large number of immigrants, so I would expect to find , the overcrowding of Stepney distinctly in advance of that of other districts in London, and the- figures obtained from the Census suggest that, because ■Stepney is the only district in London which shows an increase in the proportion of the population living in overcrowded tenements of less than five rooms. There has been a tendency for this proportion to become less1 in the other districts, but it has not been so in Stepney. (Chairman.) The tables show us this. 3969. (Sir (Kenelm Digby.) The tables, so far as you. have given them, and so far as they appear in the Census, do distinctly show a considerable excess of over- crowding in Stepney more than in the other places ?— Yes, I think Stepney is distinctly worse. 3970. Proceeding on that basis that Stepney is worsen than, any other part of London in this respect, what do - you say is the remedy for that overcrowding? In the first place I think it would be convenient to get through you what the liegal powers of the authorities are?— I will give those toi you now. 3971. It is your duty to inspect the: various localities to make representations as to unhealthy areas and so on ?—That is so. 3972. Therefore your duty does bring you into inti- mate knowledge with the conditions of overcrowding in the different parts of London ?—It does to that extent. 3973. Just give us as shortly and as clearly as you can the leading provisions of the law as it stands with regard to providing remedies for overcrowding? — The # law that enables a sanitary authority to deal with overcrowding is contained in the Public Health (London) let, 1891. There are two ways of dealing with ororcrowding. Sec- tion 2 of that Act defines as a nuisance " Any house or part of a house so over crowded as to be injurious or dangerous to the health of the inmates, whether or not members of the same family." If this nuisance exists the sanitary authority may " serve a notice on the person by whose act, default ,or sufferance the nuisance* arises or continues, or, if such person cannot be found,136 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. S. F. on the occupier or owner of the premises on, which the Murphyt nuisance arises, requiring him to abate the same within r • the time specified in the notice, and to execute such 6 works and do such things as may be necessary for that purpose, and, if the sanitary authority think it desirable (but not otherwise), specifying any works to be exe- cuted. (2) The sanitary authority may also* by tne same or another notice served on such occupier, owner, or person require him to do what is necessary for pre- venting the recurrence of the nuisance, and if they think it desirable, specify any works to be executed for that purpose, and may serve that notice notwithstand- ing that the nuisance may from time to time have been abated, if the sanitary authority consider that it is likely to recur on the same premises. (3) Provided that (a) where the nuisance arises from any want or defect of a structural character, or where the premises are unoccupied, the notice shall be served on the owner ; (b) where the person causing the nuisance can- not be found, and it is clear that the nuisance does not arise or continue by the act, default, or sufferance of the occupier or owner of the premises, the sanitary •authority may themselves abate the same, and may do what is necessary to prevent the recurrence thereof ; '(c) where the medical officer of health certifies to the sanitary authority that any house or part of a house in their district is so overcrowded as to be injurio u© ur dangerous to the health of the inmates, whether or riot members of the same family, the sanitary authority •shall take proceedings under this section for the abate- ment of such nuisance ; (d) where the nuisance is such •absence of water fittings as is declared a nuisance by Section 33 of the Metropolitan Water Act, 1871 (set out in the First Schedule to this Act), such absence shaix ~be deemed to render the premises unfit for human liabitation unless and until the contrary is shown to the satisfaction of the Court. (4) Where a notice has T>een served on a person under this section and either <(a) the nuisance arose from the wilful act or default of the said person ; or (b) such person makes default in -complying with any of the requisitions of the notice •within the time specified, he shall be liable to a fine not •exceeding ten pounds." The procedure is shown m & later section. (Chairman.) It says in the first place: "Any pre- mises in such a state as to be a nuisance or injurious •or dangerous to health." That is general. Then there is the physical condition of the house: " Any pool, ditch, gutter, watercourse, cistern, water-closet, earth- closet, privy, urinal, cesspool, drain, dung-pit, or ash- pit so foul or in such a state as to be a nuisance." Then it says : "Any animal kept in such place or manner as to be a nuisance." Then it says: "Any accumulation or deposit which is a nuisance." Then: "Any house or part of a house so overcrowded as to« be injurious or dangerous to the health of the inmates, whether or not members of the same family." Then the next is the absence of water fittings. Then it says " If it is not kept in a cleanly state and free from effluvia arising from any drain, privy, earth-closet, water-closet, urinal, or other -nuisance, or is not ventilated," and so on. Then, lastly, •" If it is so overcrowded while work is carried on as to he injurious or dangerous to the health of those em- ployed therein." I think the principal ones are letter '(e): " Any house or part of a house so overcrowded as to be injurious," and then next, "So overcrowded while work is being carried on as to be injurious." Those are the principal ones you have to deal with ? 3974. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Of course, in proceedings' under that Act you have to prove that the house is so ■overcrowded as to be a nuisance. There is no* definite number given which constitutes overcrowding and no test of overcrowding is given ?—That is so. 3975. (Chairman.) What is tlhe procedure section? —The procedure is shown in Section 4. 3976. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Is that the one dealing with the owner being liable under certain circumstances ?— Yes. 3977. (Chairman.) "On receipt of any information respecting the existence of a nuisance liable to be dealt with summarily under this Act, the sanitary authority •shall, if satisfied of the existence of a nuisance, serve a notice on the person by whose act, default, or suffer- ance the nuisance arises or continues, or if such person cannot be found, on the occupier or owner of the pre- mises on .which the nuisance arises, requiring him to .•abate the. same within the time specified." I do not know what is the difference between the occupier and the person who causes it. I should have thought they were the same. In practice whom is the proceeding taken against ?—The person proceeded against generally and upon whom the notice would be served would be the person by whose act the nuisance is created ; that is to say, it might be served on the tenant. 3978. Who is the occupier?—The occupier is, I think defined in the Act. 3979. Is that in the definition clause?—Yes, I think Section 141. 3980. " The expression ' owner' means the person for the time being receiving the rack rent of the premises in connection with which the word is used, whether on his own account or as agent or trustee for any other person." Where is occupier dealt with? — I should have said that owner is the one that is defined. " Occu- pier " is not. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Before we leave this point I will call attention to Section 7, which contains a further provision : " Where two convictions for offences relating to the overcrowding of a house or part of a house in any district have taken place within a period of three months (whether the persons convicted were or were not the same) a petty sessional court may, on the appli- cation of the sanitary authority, order the house to be closed for such period as the court may deem necessary." (Chairman.) That is by order of justices. 3981. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Yes. That says that where there have been two convictions for overcrowding tne house may be closed. That, I think, exhausts that remedy by prosecution for a nuisance. Now, will you tell us what other provisions there are giving powers and duties to the sanitary authority to deal with over-1 crowding 1—The most complete powers are obtained by the sanitary authority making bye-laws for liouses let as lodgings. Those bye-laws are made under Section 94 of this Act. 3982. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That applies to houses let in lodgings or occupied by the members of more than one family?—That is so. 3983. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There is one power in that section, I think, which especially refers to this ?—Yes, " for fixing the number of persons who may occupy a house or part of a house which is let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one family, and for the separation of the sexes in a house so let or occupied." 3984. There is power to make bye-laws regulating that matter ?—Yes. 3985'. (Chairman.) Supposing one very large family of 11 or 12 occupied, would there be any power to deal with the matter, except under the general overcrowd- ing offences created by Section 2 ? (Sir Kenelm Digby.) But that would apply, would it not, where different rooms in a house were let to different families ?—Yes. 3986. Suppose a small house with a family of 11 or 12 children, is there any power of dealing with the nuisance except under the general power of overcrowding'{— No, that is so. 3987. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Supposing the owner or occupier of a house lets his house to two* families, then he comes under the bye-law?—'Yes. 3988. It is under the! bye-law that you can hit the owner of the house?—Yes, it is the most convenient way of getting at the landlord of the house undoubtedly. 3989. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Is it a power or an injunction to make the bye-law ?—They are required under the Act—it is obligatory. 3990. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There are powers to the County Council to intervene if the sanitary authority does not do that?—Yes, that is so. That is Section 100 and Section 101. 3991. "Where complaint is made by the County Council to the Local Government Board that a sanitary authority have made default in executing or enforcing any provisions which it is their duty to execute or enforce of this Act, or of any bye-law made in pursuance thereof, the Local Government Board, if satisfied after due in- quiry that the authority have been guilty of the alleged default, and that the complaint cannot be remedied under the other provisions of this Act, shall make an order limiting a time for the performance of the duty of such authority in the matter of such complaint. If such duty is not performed by the time limited in theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 137 order, tire order may be enforced by writ of mandamus, or the Local Government Board may appoint the Counvy Council to' perform such duty." • In the first place, liav e &ny' bye-laws been made under this power ?—-There Were bye-laws made ; under a previous power under a somewhat corresponding section in the Sanitary Act of I866y namely, Section 35- That is a very similar power, and , almost the same. Those bye-laws were made by each of the separate sanitary authorities, because, for instance^ for the Borough of Stepney there were four. 3992. The bye-laws that are now in existence are the by-laws which were made under the Act of 1866 by the various sanitary authorities?—'Yes, that is quite true for Mile End Old Town, the bye-laws were made pre vious to the passirg of the Public Health (London) Act, and therefore they would be under that section of the Act of 1866. In St. George's-in-the-East the bye- laws were made, I think, under this Public Health Act. 3993. Mr. Yallance has here a copy of the bye- laws of the Board of Works of the Whitechapel dis- trict, which are said to be made under the Public Health (London) Act, 1891?—Yes, but I may say the Whitechapel District Board proceeded not long ago1 to modify one of those bye-laws in an important respect, and practically made new bye-laws under the Public Health Act. That was about 1899. 3994. (Chairman.) What is the sanitary authority?— At the present moment the Metropolitan Borough Council of Stepney. Before the Act of 1899 there were four sanitary authorities in the same area which is now comprised in the Borough of Stepney. 3995. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is to say, before the London Government Act came into force, the bye-laws were made by those different sanitary authorities, but now they are made by the Borough Council for the whole ?—Yes. Now it is within my knowledge that the Borough Council has at this moment bye-laws before the Local Government Board which are awaiting con- firmation. I understand that the thing is practically settled, although I am not sure at this moment that they have been actually confirmed. 3S96. For the whole borough?—Yes. 3997. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We do not know that fchey will be sanctioned?—I am told that the whole thing is agreed between the Local Government Board and the Borough Council, and they have sent me, in reply to a request, an abstract showing the bye-laws re- lating to the occupation of rooms. 3998. Then these which we 'are considering now will be out of date?—Yes, I am not sure that they are not out of date at this moment. (Chairman.) Perhaps we had better postpone this until -they have become authentic. 3999. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Certainly. I will go on with the general procedure. They have the power and duty to .make bye-laws to deal with these questions, and I believe the Local Government Board have made certain model bye-laws ?—That is so-. 4000. Could you give us the model bye-laws as far as fchey relate to overcrowding? (Chairman.) Are these made as suggestions to the Borough Councils to adopt ? —Yes.. 4001. When were these suggested ? Have they been ]ately suggested, and how far have they been adopted?—Bye-laws were made by a number of the sanitary authorities under the Act of 1866, and they have been in force for a number of years. All sanitary authorities, however, did not make bye-laws. 4002. The 'model bye-laws which I have in this County Council book seem to be suggested bye-laws by the Local Government Board ?—Yes, they were made a number of years ago. First of all I may say model bye-laws were drafted by the Local Government Board shortly after the passing of the 1875 Public Health Act. Thoy did not relate to London specially, but they were avail- able, for the purposes of London. 4003. Have they been acted upon sinjce 1866 ?'—Bye- laws were made in some districts soon after 1866. 4004. Do you approve of these as being sufficient ?— I think the later bye-laws are better, but broadly I think they are good bye-laws. 4005. Have any modifications been made since the Borough Councils came into existence in London in 1899 ?—There is an important point that has been before ■ 6144 some of the Borough Councils, and that is with regard j)r ^ j to the question whether there should be a rent limit Muvphy. in the bye-laws. The bye-laws which were made by a -' number of the sanitary authorities ran something in 2 June 1902, this way : " These bye-laws shall apply to houses let in lodgings, the rental of each tenement of which is not above a specified amount." Whitechapel had such a bye-law with a provision of that sort, and it was found to be very inconvenient. 4006. So as to confine it apparently to the smaller houses ?—Yes. 4007. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It was 5s. unfurnished, and 7s. 6d. furnished ?—That is so. 4008. Whitechapel raised that? —■ Whitechapel doubled that in 1899, I think. 4009. To 10s., I think, unfurnjished, and 14s. fur- nished ?■—Yes. 4010. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It also doubles the motive for raising the rent?—No doubt if the bye-law limit is near the rent it is a convenience to the landlord to raise the rent to get out of the bye-law. 4011. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Therefore it would be con- venient to raise the limit of rent to prevent that occurring ?—Yes, or to get rid of the rent limit alto- gether. 4012. Had that bye-law the effect of keeping a great many of the houses off the register?—Yes. 4013. (Chairman.) These bye-laws, as we read them here, relate only to sleeping apartments?—The first is with regard to sleeping apartments. That is a room occupied by night only. The other is a room occupied by day and by night. The cubic space for each person is different. " The landlord of a. lodging-house^ or a lodger therein, shall not knowingly cause or suffer a greater number of persons than will admit of the provision of 300 cubic feet of free air space for 'each person of an age exceeding 10 years, and of 150 cubic feet of free air space for each person of an age not exceeding 10 years, to occupy at any one time as a sleeping apartment a room which is used exclusively for that purpose, and!. which is under the control of such landlord, or which has . been let to such lodger respectively, as the case may be." 1 Then No. 4 is, "The landlord of a lodging-house, or a lodger therein, shall not knowingly cause or suffer a greater number of persons than will admit of the pro- vision of 400 cubic feet of free air space for each person of not find ,so much the evil arising when the overcrowding is by one family—one occupier having too large a family; but surely the evil results arise from sub-letting to lodgers or from the employment of work- men?—'Yes, I think that is so in the main, but there is a great deal of overcrowding. Where a large family will go into one room that does arise very frequently, but the overcrowding of the worst sort is where people will take in other people, two or three a night, because it gives rise to worse results than the mere want of space, 4036. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You mean moral results?— Yes. 4037. (Major "Evans-Gordon.) This case would also arise, would it not: A man and his wife and, say, one child would go into a room to-day and have sufficient culbic space, but in two or three years' time he would have a family that would be too big for the cubic space, and overcrowding would arise from the natural increase of 'his family ?—That would be so, but what I am constantly told is that people often take rooms, con- cealing the facts with regard to the size of their families. 4038. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It does come to this : that if this decision had gone the other way you would have been able to investigate the state of each tenement with much less trouble ?—Yes, far less trouble, and there are other advantages arising from dealing with it in that way. For instance, with regard to houses which are registered and made subject to bye-laws, there is a right of entry day and night. The hours of entry are more limited for the purpose of abating a nuisance. They are from six in the morning till nine at night. They might be used much more than they are, but still, the right to examine at night is an important point. Then there is another thing, that with houses which are under regulation there is a moral influence resulting from the regulation. The landlord knows that his house is on the register, and that he has got to look after the proper condition of things in it, and there is an amount, I think, of disciplinary effect resulting from regula- tion which is valuable. 4039. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is an immense saving of time, because we have had it before us that it takes six weeks to serve an ordinary notice of abate- ment?—It is a very tedious process, no doubt. 4040. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Therefore the real effec- tive machinery to check overcrowding is this proceeding by bye-law?—Yes, but I should like to say there might be difficulty in applying bye-laws to these large block buildings which already exist abundantly in Stepney, and which are increasing in number. 4041. Even assuming you cannot at present, as the law now stands, regulate under bye-laws these block buildings, still there is an enormous amount of over- crowding which might be dealt with by bye-laws ?— Yes. 4042. (Mr. Norman.) The question of re-Eousinjg must be always considered with that?—'No doubt re- housing must -not be lost sight of, but the fact remains that overcrowding ought to be abated. 4043. Is the provision of any use whatever without provision for re-housing ?—I would enforce the law re- lating to overcrowding. The re-housing is an important thing, and I am not denying the importance of it. 4044. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What I mean by enforcing the law against overcrowding is first of all taking steps to have efficient and proper bye-laws made, which is the duty of the Borough Council, and enforcing these bye-laws ?—I think so. 4045. We have heard a great deal here about the rela- tion of overcrowding and rents, and I suppose you would assent to that, that the undue rise of rents is a great deal due to the conditions of overcrowding which prevail?—I should think it is very likely to be due to a catase of that sort.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 139 4046. An effective proceeding gives you a much better hold against the landlord 1—Yes, you can pro- ceed against the landlord of a house. 4047. Do you see any practical difficulty in enforcing the existing .powers of the law and so checking this eviJ of overcrowding ?—I am certain it would be a big thing to be faced, but it ought to be faced. It wants great backbone to do it. I see no insuperable obstacle in the way of enforcing bye-laws for this purpose. No doubt it would inflict hardship in particular cases, and it. would want anybody administering to .steel his heart to a good deal, but I am perfectly certain the thing could be done and ought to be done. 4048. What sort of bye-laws do you suggest? Are you satisfied with the model bye-laws of the Local Government Board ?—I think those bye-laws would be good, and I think there would be a great advantage in having no rent limit. I understand the new bye-laws that are before the Local Government Board are with- out a rent limit. 4049. .In the bye-laws, as they exist at present, it has been the practice for the bye-Jaws themselves to fix the rent limit?—Not in every district. They did in Whitechapel, but I do not think they did in Limehouse. 4050. (Chairman.) The Whitechapel bye^laws say: " In either of the following cases a lodging-house shall be exempt from the operation of these bye-laws, that is to say, (a) where the rent or charge payable by each lodger, and exclusive of any charge for the use by such lodger of any furniture, is at a rate exceeding ten shillings per week ; (b) where the rent or charge pay- able by each lodger, and inclusive of any charge for the use by such lodger of any furniture, is at a rate exceeding fifteen .shillings per week." Supposing there are four lodgers in the house and one pays 12s. a week and the others pay 8s., how does the bye-law come in then ?—I have always assumed myself that the bye-law applies. 4051. To each lodger?—Yes. 4052. Supposing you have only one abote, one cannot be overcrowding ?—It says : " Where the rent or charge payable by each lodger." That I 'have understood to mean this : that if each lodger pays something outside the limit the house is exempt. 4053. That, is self-evident, but the point is, if one is above the limit and three below the limit, what happens then?—Then I should say the bye-law applies—that the house is in the nature of a tenement house. 4054. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is one suggestion you would make, that there should be no rent limit allowed by th© bye-laws ?—I think there is advantage in not having a rent limit. 4055That might either be done by legislation or by the action of the Local Government Board ?•—Yes, the Local Government Board can assent to and confirm such bye-laws. 4056. Is there any suggestion you have to make with regard to bye-laws ? Are there any parts of London in which effective bye-laws have 'been made, and that have been effectively used, with the result of prevent- ing overcrowding 'Yes, a few have done work of a very good sort. For instance, the district in which we are at the present moment, Westminster, did. Kensington has done so too. Bye-laws have been unpopular very oftpn because of the various interests of the persons concerned, but the sanitary authorities who have had experience of the working of bye-laws, and especially medical officers of health who have seen their effect, have always spoken favourably of them, and there has been a steady advance in the tendency to use bye-laws of late years. ^ The London County Council has pressed it and urged it for years upon sanitary authorities, and I think public feeling has come round to the use of bye-laws. 4057. (Chairman.) Where does the unpopularity of bye-laws exist ?—I think in substance the unpopularity has been with the owners of th© houses. 4058. I should think that proves the wisdom of the bye-laws ?—I think so too. 4059. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Sometimes the owners of the houses are members of the body who have to make the bye-laws?—-Yes, there is no doubt of that. That is the chief opposition. 4060. That has been the case?—Yes, undoubtedly. 4061. (Chairman.) Owners of houses are on the borough councils very often ?—I do not wish to speak 6144 of borough councils, but owners of houses get on to the j)r. s. F. sanitary authorities, and the bye-laws limit the use o! Murphy. the houses and require periodical cleansing of the house, - and this means an outlay of money. ? June 1902. 4062. Would you suggest that any other body, except the borough council, should be the sanitary authority, so as to frame bye-laws ?—I would keep the enforcement of the bye-laws with the borough councils undoubtedly. 4063. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With the power that the London County Council has to call the attention of the Local Government Board to1 them, and to put pressure on them through the Local Government Board ?—Yes. I think there is a growth of feeling in favour of the en- forcement of bye-laws. For instance, I know that there have recently been appointed two inspectors to deal specially with houses let in lodgings. Even to get any inspectors appointed for such a purpose is an advance on what went before. 4064. Has that power of supervision by the London County Council been effective ?—Not entirely; the London County Council has. met with its difficulties. For instance, it represented one local authority for hoc enforcing the bye-laws, but the local authority had got within its bye-laws a power of discretion as to what houses should be registered, and the result was that the Local Government Board were of opinion that they could not be held in default because they exercised their discretion to the extent that they practically did not register any houses at all. The thing has not been entirely free from difficulties. 4065. To sum up this part of the case by a general question, your opinion I gather is this : That if the existing powers are properly enforced of making bye- laws, or of enforcing bye-laws, this evil might to a very great extent be abated ?—It might be very largely met. and dealt with. 4066. Without going into the re-housing part of the case, there are powers which the local authority may also exercise in that direction too ?—Yes ; I am not suggesting that the general question of housing should. not be fully considered, but I may say this—that if we- are going to wait till pressure on the central parts of* London ceases, we shall never get rid of the overcrowd- ing at all, because whatever the quantity of accommoda- tion that might be found elsewhere, there will always'. be that tendency to> press towards the centre, simply for the convenience of living near to places of employ- ment. 4067. (Major Evans-Gordon.) May I say that the Census figures show there has actually been a decrease m pressure on the central district ? Normally speaking, you say there has been 8,500 native population sent away, and you think probably that the population in Stepney would, were it not for foreign immigration^ have decreased?—Yes; because there are two conditions working. The on© is the pulling down of houses for warehouses, that tends to reduce the population in a dis- trict. On the other side, the dearth of dwelling accom- modation tends to overcrowding m what is left, and a fuller use of it. I should think that in all probability there would have been a decrease in the total population if it had not been for the immigration. 4068. With regard to your point as to the diminu- tion of houses for factories and school boards, and so forth, we know that process has been in operation, and I want to^point out to you that another process is also in operation, that is, in many places—certainly in btepney, where the ground is occupied by two or four^ roomed tenement houses—large buildings have grown up, so that the diminution in one direction has been compensated for by the very enormously increased size of the houses m another. Do you follow me?—Yes ; I dare say they do get more people on the acre in White- chapel than they used to. 4069. I can point out one instance where 16 or rather more, small houses—little wooden cottages they were—were pulled down, and upon that site a building was erected with 168 tenements in it, so that the people on that space were enormously more numerous than they had been before?—Yes. 4070. I suppose there are 600 or 700 people in that building ?—That may be so. 4071. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is there anything else yon want to call attention to?—I do not know whether it has any bearing upon the matter, but I have been asso140 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : £)r. S. F. elated with the County Council's administration of Murphy. various Acts. I have mentioned the Housing of the ; ......_ Q Working Classes Act, and I have had experience of th» 2 June 19Uw. administration of the Dairies and Cowsheds Order re- lating to the cleanliness of milk premises, and I hav^ had experience of this population in that connection. I have mentioned that because I think it may interest the Commission to know that we have not found any diffi- culty in enforcing the sanitary laws with regard to them. 4072. (Mr. Lyttelton.) In this alien population, you mean?—Yes; they have the habit of opening little shops, and selling a little milk, and they oome under registration, and have been subject to the inspection of the County Council's inspectors. These powers are now transferred to the borough councils, so I am less in touch with it just at the present moment. The con- ditions under which they sold milk, and the cleanliness of milk-cans, and things of that sort, were often found not to be what they should be, and I asked the council to increase the number of inspectors for the purpose of getting a better hold of them. This was done, and there was a series of prosecutions, but the people seemed to respond very well to influences of that sort, and there was a very distinct improvement in those conditions before the powers were transferred to the borough councils. 4073. (Chairman.) Will you. dissect your evidence a little more with regard to aliens?—I am speaking now .entirely of aliens who took upon themselves to sell milk to their neighbours. 4074. How do they compare with the Christians P— I have talked to our own inspectors about it, and I thinis: they thought that the Christians who were engaged m the milk trade had a better knowledge of the cleanli- ness of milk-cans and premises than these people when they first came over here ; but the feeling was that after , action. 4086. I want to know what action ?—They took some action. This report, which called attention to the various sanitary wants of Whitechapel, was communi- cated to them. 4087. An attempt was made to influence them—would that correctly describe it ?—I should like to read an •extract from this report. This is Dr. Hamer's state- ment : —" It thus comes about that little can be done by the existing staff in the way of house-to-house in- spection, that no systematic attempt can be made to carry out the bye-laws relating to houses let in lodgings (and more particularly to enforce those of their pro- visions which relate to cleanliness and overcrowding), and that it is impossible to bring under thorough con- trol the large number of workshops." This is a report in October, 184, and upon that some action was taken by the Whitechapel Board ; and I know they did pro- ceed to register a number of rooms in houses let in lodgings, but they were then confronted with the diffi- culty about the rent limit incorporated in their bye- laws, and they proceeded to amend that, and in 1899—I think September—those rent limits were doubled. Then I know they proceeded to deal in some sort of way with the question ; but as a matter of fact, there has been one circumstance that has led to delay in the development of sanitary administration in London, and that is the change incidental to the new authorities taking the place of the old. That has led to the hand being held often when it would not have been if there had not been another authority coming in the way, which would be assuming responsibility. 4088. I think we all know the zeal of the County Council itself in this matter, and it has endeavoured, I take it from you, to guide the feelings of the sanitary authorities in the direction- of the enforcement of the bye-laws?—Yes ; it has done so very largely. Does the County Council desire any further power in dealing with this matter or not?—I can only speak of the County Council's views from the point of view of what action it has taken. It has called attentionMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 141 to tli© difficulty arising with regard to the rent limit, and with regard to the exercise of the power of discre- tion &s to houses, which has distinctly created difficul- ties^ 4090. I want to know your view as to whether you think hope in this matter is to be derived from tne borough councils, from the County Council, or from the Local Government BoaM, because here we have got apparently a perfectly efficient law, and might have a perfectly efficient machinery, but we get the law not administered by the borough councils., or not adminis- tered by the sanitary authorities, and that duty not en- forced upon them b ybhe two bodies who have the power to enforce it upon them. I want to know what your .•solution for the problem so created is ?■—I think there are several steps. First of all, it was very desirable to get bye-laws that were free from the objections that J mentioned. 4091. You seem to have got that in terms?—Yes; -then the question remains, Will the borough councils •enforce them or not ? I can only say that I cordially .hope they may ; but if they do not, I have seen no in- dication. on the part of the London County Council to Ihesitate to use such powers as it has. 4092. The powers are, first, to attempt to influence -the borough councils, and next, if you fail to influence them, to approach the Local Government Board, who «can apply by mandamus to enforce the bye-la.ws being exercised. I know it is difficult for you to criticise the Local Government Board, but I want to know quite ■candidly your opinion as to whether these powers are likely to be enforced, from the experience at present existing?—I think the only difficulty has been that ot the legal one. I do not think there has been any un- willingness anywhere. I am not speaking of the old ■sanitary authorities ; I think there was distinct un- willingness there. 4093. I want to know where is the practical legal difficulty arising, for I confess I fail to follow it?— I do not know that there is any difficulty now. Very likely, with these new bye-laws there will be no diffi- culty. I take it it will be simply a question of the wil- lingness of the local authorities to' proceed. 4094. The willingness of the authorities is one matter. I quite appreciate the position, anyhow. You do not wish'to criticise the borough councils, and quite rightly, if you can avoid it; but we have to get the opinions of gentlemen like you. Do you think that the borough 'councils are at this moment failing in their duty ? It was stated so by one of their own body, but do you agree with it?—I think there has been failure on the part of the sanitary authorities in the past. 4095. (Chairman.) But the borough councils?—They have only been in office a short time; they have pro- ceeded to get their bye-laws extended, and have pro- ceeded to appoint two inspectors, and I think the thing is fairly promising, but I cannot say more than that. 4096. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) I gather you think the steps they have taken show reason for hope ?—Yes ; and one is hoping now that the thing is going to be dealt with substantially, not dealt with as in many districts in London, a few hundred houses being put on, but dealt with with a strong hand ; otherwise this ques- tion will never be tackled at all. 4097. On the part of every local authority there is a natural reluctance to cause suffering. Supposing these "bye-lawsi were stringently enforced, the result would be to turn a certain number of people out into the ■streets, I suppose ?—No doubt it wouid lead to turning people out. 4098. When that has occurred, if it ever has occurred, what has happened—where have these people drifted to, or what has become of them ?—I think the best answer :I have to give to that is that it has not been done, or «o sparingly that I am not able to cite illustrations. 4099. Are you not unduly sanguine in. supposing that, confronted with such a. difficulty as that, con- fronted with the suffering that would follow, the Borough Councils would proceed to carry out these bye- laws stringently? Does any experience that you have in the past lead jm to the conclusion that they will do . so?—It is very difficult for me to make a forecast as to what newly constituted authorities will do. I think .public opinion is-altering towards the subject, and that is where I have got some hope. I spoke of West- minster and Kensington going to work very well, and I am hoping that the others will. I cannot say they will not. 4100. You are perfectly right to adopt that view, but assume hypothetically a darker forecast than that, and that these powers will not be enforced under the exist- ing (conditions, is there any proposal that you would make for strengthening the law in any direction under such hypothetical conditions ?—None occurs to me just now, unless the Local Government Board could confer on the County Council the powers to do it itself. 4101. (Chairman.) Do what?—To carry out these bye-laws. 4102. I think Mr. Lyttelton asked you whether any- thing could be done to mitigate the evil of turning people out without having any place to go to. We have heard that difficulty has prevented the law being put in force, and it is a serious thing to say, " You go out," and not provide any place for them to go to. Can any- thing be done for the people who have to go out?—I am not prepared to make any suggestion. People must in the end look out for themselves—there is no ques- tion of that. I can tell you an experience of my own in a parish where I was responsible for a number of houses being closed under the old Torrens Act, and it Was a painful sight for me to go down the morning after the order had been carried out to find a quantity of poor Irish people sitting on their beds and sticks of furniture outside the court, and having apparently nowhere to go. I know, as a matter of fact, it was not a great number of hours before those people found ac- commodation. There was a great unwillingness to move or look out for fresh accommodation before the actual event occurred, but as soon as they found that the sanitary authority was in earnest about the thing, accommodation was found for them, and the difficulty was overcome. Now, I do not think anybody could take Whitechapel and say, " I will reduce the whole of the overcrowding in Whitechapel in a week." I do not think it practicable, but I do say this, that if you proceed systematically to deal with it street by street, and make it perfectly clear, both to landlord and tenant, that the overcrowding has got to be red'uced, I believe that it will be reduced, and that this overcrowding would melt away. One knows it is focussed. There is a great deal of overcrowding in London generally. I can find lots of instances where the overcrowding is as bad in streets as it is in Whitechapel, but the difficulty about Whitechapel or Stepney is that it covers a rather large area. The people should be spread over a larger area. There is no* dou'bt the difficulty will exist as long as they are permitted to live in the smaller area, 'but they can be spread out by the application of the sanitary law. 4103. So far as legislation is concerned you have at present, according to your view, in the first place reason- able expectation of thoroughly efficient bye-laws ?— I think so. 4104. Then, you have the representative local autho- rity to enforce them, and if the local representative authority will not enforce them, you have the County Council ready to influence and with power to apply to the Local Government Board to enforce the bye-laws where they are not enforced by the local authority?— That is so. 4105. Lastly, you have the central government, with the dutv of enforcing these bye-laws upon the local authority. I take it you cannot suggest any strength- ening of the law as it stands for dtealinsf with that matter ?—Broadly, no. The great thing is the willing- ness to enforce. It all turns upon that. 4106. You cannot get beyond a representative local authority and control by a central authority, can you ? No other machinery occurs to you?—Nothing occurs to me. I should quite anticipate that if there is local failure it would be supplemented by action of the County Council. 4107.' You do not make any suggestion either as to the mitigation of the necessary suffering that must take place from the enforcement of the law against over- crowding ?—No. I think the way to deal with the matter is to proceed steadily and by degrees, and I think that the difficulties will be found to be much less than tihey are anticipated to be. 4108. We have got your opinion now that no legis- lative proposal is remuired to enforce the law. Do you think that any legislative proposal is required to mit Dr. S. F. Murphy. I June 190142 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. S. F. ga^e increase of the evil by the admission of im- Murphy. migrants ?—I am not prepared to make any suggestion —- with regard to limitation bofore knowing the full effect 2 June 1902. of what could be done with the existing sanitary ~ law. I am only dealing with the sanitary ques- tion now. There is just one point I have on my notes that I want to mention, and that is this, that I do think something should be done with regard to these aliens who oom-e into London and stop a few days in transit to America or to South Africa. There is want of an organisation that should provide fit and proper places for these people to go into. ' 4109. May I take it generally from you that, in your opinion, you should allow time for tihe new authorities to work under the exis'fcinxr law before any legislative action is taken to prevent immigration ?—I should not at a'll like to accept any such responsibility for sug- gesting new legislation in that direction until I saw what could be done. Everything ought to be done by the sanitary authorities. 4110. Is there, in your view, speaking entirely from the medical and sanitary point of view, a greater pvU ■present in these, what I may call foreign districts, than there is in other portions of London where the foreign element does not exist?—I think there is a greater tendency to overcrowd. 4111. I think that is shown by your figures, but your other figures upon vital statistics seem to show that the overcrowding there does not result in danger or increased disease?—So far as these people are con- cerned their own rates of mortality are low, but I am not going to justify overcrowding in spite of ,the figures. 4112. Certainly not, but why I ask the question is* supposing there had been a proposal made for dis- seminating or diffusing the foreign population through Wider districts than they at present occupy, would you be in favour of such a proposal ?—I should be very glad to see these people diffused over wider districts, speak- ing as a medical officer of health. 4113. That seems to show their presence in one dis- trict operates disadvantageously to health ?—I am sure of this, unat the amount of overcrowding that now exists ought not to be tolerated—I am certain of that. 4114. And these people increase it ?—I understand these people increase it, therefore I say there is a greater necessity in Stepney for the enforcement of laws relat- ing to this matter than even in other districts, but if I were asked whether I would approve of special legis- lation that should have that effect I should be very desirous of knowing what legislation it was, and what other results might accrue from it. 4115. I do not want to commit you to anything except the principle. From a sanitary point of view you would think it desirable to diffuse, this foreign popTilation more throughout London rather than to concentrate it in a particular district?—Yes, I am sure- it would be an advantage to reduce the overcrowding and spread this population over a larger area. 4116. (Mr. Norman.) An advantage to Stepney or an advantage to London9—An advantage to Stepney. ELEVENTH DAY. Thursday, oth June 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Councillcr Councillor W. Belcher, W. Belcher* ~ 4117. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What is your naime and 0 June loG-j. aj(j(jreSiS p—.Councillor Walter Belcher, of the Borough ~ " of Stepney, and manager to the Chapman Estate. The Earl of Winter ton is the owner. 4118. Why is it called the Chapman Estate ?—It formerly balonged to the Chapman family. 4119. And now it belongs to the Earl of Winterton? —Yes, he is the owner. 4120. What is the Winterton Estate composed of ?— Between 900 and 1,000 houses. 4121. In which district?—In St. George's-in-the- East. 4122. All in St. George's-in-the-E as t ?—Yes. 4123. What is your position with regard to that ?— I am the general manager, and do all the building and all the repairs, and help to collect the rents, and every- thing that is required on the estate. 4124. You are general manager of the estate?—Yes, for . building and alterations and repairs, and help in rent-collecting. 4125. You are a Councillor on the Borough Council of Stepney ?—Yes. 4126. Of course, since it has been created ?—Yes, and a member of the old vestry of St. George's-in-the-East. 4127. How long were you a vestryman ?—Two years. called; and Examined. 4128. How long have you lived in the district?— 15^ years. 4129. You say you are in close and constant touch with the population?—Yes, always. 4130. You are always about in the streets ?—Yes, and in the houses. 4131. Can you tell us about this question which we are inquiring into—the question of alien immigration? Have you observed that it has created a change ?—When I went to St. George's-in-the-East from Godalming, in Surrey, I found it a very thriving, prosperous place, the shopkeepers doing a good trade, and everything looking bright and well ; but I am sorry to say now things are- just the reverse. The estate I am connected with was a leasehold estate running out in 1900. 4132. What does that mean—expiring them ?—Yes, the leases exoired in 1900. Several lessees sold them, and the foreigners bought them. I take it back from 1894, when the influx of the aliens first commenced in St. George's-in-the-East. They bought those houses at the sales, and houses went up from 8s. to 14s., some from 12s. to 22s. 4133. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You mean the rents went up ?—Yes, they raised the rents on purpose to' get the English people out, and to get the foreigners in. 4134. Up to 14s. for what sort of house?—-For dif- ferent houses. Take Anthony Street, a very respect-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 143 able street. When I went there there were about three foreigners in the street. 4135. Where is Anthony Street ?—Off the Commercial Road. 4136. (Chairman.) South or north ?—South. The numbers were 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12. That was in 1894. Taking four-story 'houses at 14s., they are gone up to £1 and £1 2s. 4137. (Major Evans-Gordon.) First they were what ? —14s. 4138. Before that ?—They used to be only 10s. 6d. 4139. Then 14s., then £1, and then £1 2s. ?—Yes. 4140. In all, £1 2s. ?—No, only one. 4141. What sort of houses are they?—They are a decent class of house for the neighbourhood where they are; in fact, they are a good cilass of house for that part. The displacement of native population has been .great. I have found from the commencement when the aliens first arrived that if you once get one foreigner in the house, -he- will pester you day and night to get houses for his co-religionists coming, or for his brothers or his sisters, and the first thing they do is to try and bribe you with a nice few pounds—that is the common phrase they use—they will not leave you day or night, Sunday or any other time, but will try to get you tc turn an Englishman out on purpose to take in others, &nd when you do get them in, you know it well. 4142. Has that been done to you personally ?—It ha& 'been offered to me and to the collectors in hundreds and thousands of cases. As late as last Monday morn- ing Mr. 'Collier himself—that is the agent.—was offered £5 to let a tenant stop in who was given notice to leave for overcrowding. 4143. You gave notice in an overcrowding case, and they tried to pay £5 to be allowed to stop ?—To let it slide over, as they call it. 4144. That was as late as last Monday ?—Yes. 4145. I see you have put down in your notes an in- stance at 33, Lower Chapman Street?—Yes. At 33, Lower Chapman Street the house belonged to a man who was not the owner, although he was a sort of guardian for some children. In fact, the house had only three months to run before it fell into, the estate, and the agent let one of these foreigners in for £16 for- the key money. 4146. For a three months' lease ?—Yes, for only three months before it ran into the estate. I called the owner's attention to it. 4147. Who was the owner ?—Mr. Betts. 4148. It was not a Winterton house?—It was when it fell in. 4149. Mr. Betts had the lease of it ?—Yes, he had the lease. I called his attention to the shameful way of taking £16 for a key. I happened to see him on the Saturday after, and we were talking in front of the house, and he would not believe his agent would take £16. I convinced him, and I took him in to the tenant, and I found it was so. 4150. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Who took the £16?—The agent for Mr. Betts. 4151. Who is Mr. Betts ?—He is a householder. Un- fortunately, he is like the rest, he has gone with the majority. 4152. Was the £16 paid to the landlord or to the outgoing tenant?—It was paid to the agent. I sup- pose he put it in his own pocket. 4153. Was it the landlord's agent or the outgoing tenant's agent ?—A new tenant coming into the house. 4154. (Major Evans-Gordon.) As I understand, Lord Winterton owns house property there?—Yes. 4155. Mr. Betts has got a sub-lease of the house?— Yes. # 4156. He has sub-let again to somebody else?—Yes. 4157. There were three months of that sub-lease to ?—Yes, on the expiration of the three months it fell into the estate. 4158. Somebody comes along and offers the agent £16 for the three months of that house ?—Yes. 4159. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The agent being supposed to be the agent of the sub-lessee?—Yes. 4160. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You told Mr. Betts this ? Councillor —Yes, we were standing outside talking about it, and jy. Belck?r he went in and saw the tenant, and he found what I -- told him was quite correct. As we were standing there 6 June 1902 a Jewess, or foreign woman—an alien—came along, and - said, ''Mister, is this house to let?" He said, " Un- fortunately, lady, it is let." I allowed the lady to get along two or three houses, and called her back. I said, " Now, you ask her what she will give you for the key of the empty nouse." He said, " Now, my goort lady, if this house is not taken, what will you give me for the key?" She says, "I will give you £10." She had not looked at the house. He said, " You ought to be ashamed of yourself to offer a thing like that." In fact, he sent to his agent there and then and dis- charged him, and said he was not to take another rent for him, and he gave me £1 out of his own pocket for telling the truth. 4161. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Who gave you the £1?— Mr. Betts did. 4162. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Now, with regard to over-crowding, and the habits of these people. Can you tell us anything about that ?—Yes. Take 14 and 16, Anthony Street. That was in 1894 and 1895. They were leasehold houses at the time, belonging to a German I think—I do not know the name of the tenant. These houses were let at 16s. They were formerly 10s. I found to my surprise, one morning when we went for the dilapidations of this house, 27 people working in two small rooms. I called the factory inspector's atten- tion to it, and, in fact, I wired up to Whitehall here, and he got them removed. 4163. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That was a workshop?— They made it a workshop. They pulled a partition down, and destroyed the house on purpose to make it a workshop. 4164. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Were they sleeping there as well %—There were beds and mattresses. They were all round the rooms with their backs up against the partitions, and they were working. What I saw them eating was black bread and coffee. 4165. Were there any other people in the house ex- cept those 27 ?—That was in the two top rooms at work. Down below they were living there, and I suppose sleeping as well. There were a man and wife and two or three children in the house as well, and two or three servants. 4166. You telegraphed up to the factory inspector ?— Yes, I telegraphed up to the factory inspector, and he got them cleared out. 4167. In those days had the factory inspector juris- diction over those houses ?—Oh, yes. Then 68 and 70, Anthony Street, was a very respectable house; in fact, the best house in the district. I found one morning to my surprise, when I went down to see if the dilapida- tions of the house had been completed, 21 greeners sitting round as I have described before, on those beds working down there in a front room—a kitchen about 16ft. by 12ft., and only 7ft. high. 4168. Were they working there?—Yes, men, women, and children, and all lying on these mattresses. That was at the time of the influx first, when they fetched them over to make their pile of money. 4169. What years would that be ?—1894 and 1895. 4170. Was that a house where they were taken in, or where they live ?—A tailor lived there, and he got these poor greeners over, I suppose, to work for about 8d. oi 9d. per week, -and fed them on black bread and coffee. 4171. And housed them in this house?—Yes. 4172. Was that one of your houses ?—It is now. 4173. What did you do in that case ?—I sent up to the factory inspector and he got them turned out like- wise. 4174. Then about 48, Lower Chapman Street?—With regard to 48, Lower Chapman Street, I had my atten- tion called to the fact that they were taking in greeners, and I went round, and I found that an agenit of the name of Kalian^ of Commercial Road, had got eleven of these greeners just deposited in this house. 4175. Fresh landed ones ?—Yes. I turned them out there and then, with all their luggage. They were just settling up. He was taking money off them all round in the passage. I got them turned out of the house, and the man was served with a notice, and he had to get out likewise.144 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Cpvncillor U\ Belcher. 5 June 1902. 4176. Was t,he tenant a foreigner ?—Yes, he was a rag merchant, and they used to lie on the rags all over tie place—in the yard, and in the shed, and anywhere. 4177. (Sir Kenelm Digby). Were these people going on ?—It is all very well to say to you " going on." Lots of them say they are going on, but they never move any further. They only move into a fresh district. I think you will see that if you see statistics of the re- movals of these people. 4178. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You turned the tenant out for tha b ?—Yes. 4179. For taking these people in in such large num- bers?1—Yes. Then t'here is 66, John Street, Cannon Street Road. 4180. That is also in St. George's-in-the-East ?—Yes. A gentleman came to me one morning last October and he called my attention to the overcrowding of a certain house. He said if I did not call the attention of the sanitary inspector he should. I went up along with himy and, to my surprise, we found three beds in a cellar there, and eleven people sleeping there. There was one little back window fixed. No ventilation what- ever. 4181. An unopening window, do1 you mean?—Yes. 4182. In a cellar below the ground?—Yes ; Richard- son was the owner of this house. He was a Jewish landlord. 4183. What did you do1 in that case ?—I went round to Dr. Thomas, and he sent the sanitary inspector, and got them removed at once. 4184. Were there other cases ?—I have got one here at 24, Winterton Street. 4185. As regards this one in John' Street, when did that happen?—Last October—1901. ( 4186. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is after the lease had come to an end ?—That has nothing to do with us. That is off the estate altogether. 4187. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You went up that time in your capacity as Councillor?—Yes. 4188. Not as agent of the estate ?—No. 4189. Is 24, Winterton Street, one of the Winterton houses ?—Yes, we had taken it over a few months. It is as'bad a street as you can find. 4190. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is marked blue on my map?—It is about as bad a street as you can find—on one side, I do not say both sides. I had to see about a stove. I went upstairs and knocked at the front door on the first floor landing. A woman said : " What is itj; mister?" I said: "I have come to see about the stove." She says: "Not in my part ; in the other part of the room." So I found two families living in. one room, with only just a curtain drawn across. I went back to the agent at once. I gave them notice forthwith, and got them out at the end of the week. There were five families in a four-roomed house. 4191. What was the condition when you called there ? —In a; most filthy disgusting 'condition. 4192. What do you mean by that ?—They are not clean in their habits. They dirt al*l over the floor. If you do not mind how you go you may slip down and find yourself covered over with vermin, or something else. . ft 193. What do you mean by dirt?—They are not clean in their habits even in the w.c. You never see them sit down. It is worse than what it is in the main road when it has been a very wet day. 4194. What did you do in this case of 24, Winterton Street ?—They were out within five days from that time. 4195. How do you act in these cases ?—We take the bull by the horns, and turn them out. 4196. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What is the process ?— Whdn we' find anything bad like that, we give them notice forthwith. 4197. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They are weekly tenants, and you give them, notice?—Yes, they are weekly tenants. 4193- You use your power as landlords ?:—Yes. 4199. You do not need the assistance of the sanitary inspector ?—No. If every one had the! same power as we have, no doubt things would be better ; but I shall be: able to give you better evidence on'that point directly., as to the way these poor unfortunate people are fetched by these agents and Jew landlords; with the money bags. 4200. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) On the Winterton Estate are they weekly tenants P—Yes, and some quarterly and some monthly. 4201. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But mostly weekly- ten ants ?—They are mostly weekly tenants. We have. 700 houses of weekly tenants. 42(52. 700 out of altogether between 900 and 1,0001— Yes. 4203. In the case of the weekly tenants you simply turn them out when they behave in this way on the* Winterton Estate ?—Yes. 4204. Where do these people go whom you turn out ? First of all, how long ago was this lot you are speaking; of turned out?-—About a ye with it whatever. 4300. It is simply the inflow of poor people from abroad ?—Yes, and the way they get the English people removed, the way they bribe the collectors and the aliens on purpose to get English tenants out, and how they force the rent up to make them move and get the key money. That I can prove in many instances. 4301. What about the sanitary laws? You say the sanitary laws are a dead letter in face of this?—To people outside the estate, because if they send us a notice we carry it out to the best of our ability. 4302. Do you say that bye-laws or new arrangements of any kind would be of any avail at all ?—Of no avail whatever as long as these people keep coming as they do. They stay a few years and get acclimatised, and then they get hold of greeners and sell them their houses at three times the amount of money they paid to go into it. That is the evil. 4303. You are clearing people out to-day, and at the same moment you see people coming in carts into the same streets you are trying to clear?—Yes. 4304. Then it is said that the sanitary authorities are apathetic and indifferent; but can you suggest any- thing by which these sanitary authorities could cope with the difficulty?—The only thing I can suggest is that these big owners of houses would keep their money bags together, and I do not think we should have that trouble. 4305. What do you mean by that -answer ? I do notMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 147 understand it ?—If they did not encourage them to come and take these houses and fleece the poor unfortunate beggars that come in there I do not think we should have the trouble. 4306. What is the practical remedy in your opinion ? —Nothing can stop this unless you stop what they are doing now—-building these big blocks to entice these foreigners here and promise them work. They tell them England is a country where if you go out into the street you can pick up gold. That is what I believe they are told. They are told they will live like lords, and that is the story that is put to them. 4307. Do you say anything should be done with regard to restricting these people coming here ?—'The only thing the Government can pass is a law that no foreigner shall buy land or be the owner of a house. Then, I think, you can soon stop it. 4308. Anyhow, you say that too many of them are * coming ?—Yes. They are coming worse this last fort- night than ever I saw them come before. 4309. Do you know that the Census return says that there are 54,500 foreigners in the Municipal Borougn ol Stepney ?—Yes. 4310. Exclusive of children ?—I should think 170,000 is more like it. 4311. You say that there are many more than the Census returns disclose?—Yes, about, three times as many. T think the Census is a dead letter. 4312. What makes you believe that?—Because I can prove with regard to some of these houses in Richard Street, where the foreigners live, they returned three when there were 10 or 11 in the house. They will not show their hand, or else they know very well the Govern- ment would move in the matter. In Winterton Street exactly the same thing applies, and also in Planet Street, where there were only 11 returned when there were 23 in the house. 4313. That you know ?—Yes, I know that. 4314. Do you know that there was a Committee sat upon this question some years ago, in 1888 or 1889 ? Do •you say things are worse now than they were then'?—• Yes, 10,000 times worse now than when the Committee was sitting last, in the conditions of trade and the way they get their living, and in every respect. 4315. Do you say that these people are an injury to the local shopkeeper P—Certainly they are, because they will not deal with an Englishman ; and, in fact, they take all the trade out of the district. 4316. You mean they will not deal with an English- man when they can deal with their own people?— They are so clannish. You do not see a penny pass ever between them and an Englishman. 4317. Of course, supposing their own people can pro- vide them with what they want ?—I think there is some- thing at the back of that. I think the big financiers tell them that what the English sell is no good, and they must deal with their own people. 4318. They deal with their own people for such things as their own people supply?—They supply them with everything. Take the motzes they use. 4319. What are they ?—Those are cakes. 4320. That is different. That has to be made by their own religious people ?—Take the wine and spirit trade. They open little shops, and really I do not know how they get their licence, but it is put up, " Licenced to sell wine and spirit." It is all kosher, which means pure. 4321. Of course, the articles they consume as regards food have to be bought more or less from their uwn people, because they have to be kosher, and therefore they are obliged, and are quite right according to their religion, to buy from their own people those J lings?— Yes, but they are not particular when they ao not cvst anything. If they go out to a banquet you can always see them eat the English meat, or anything like that, when it does not cost anything. 4322. There are two points I see on your note with regard to J. Stone and Co., general passenger and ship- ping agents. Have you anything to say about theim ?— That is exactly the same. I suppose they are the agents that fetch these people over and carry them to different parts. There are several names that I can give that I have seen on vans running about. I have seen them continually. 4323. Are the names on the vans?-—Yes, 6144 4324. Carting these people about?—Yes. 4325. To find accommodationi for them ?- -Yes. Councillor W. Belcher. 4326. Then you mentioned the Union Steamship ?— 5 June 1902. Yes. - 4327. Is that the same thing ?—Yes. 4328. They cart them about?—Yes. 4329. Of course, someone must oart them when they arrive ?—No doubt. 4330. Then Samuel Samuels is another man. You have mentioned him already ?—Yes. 4331. (Mr. Vollance.) With reference to the Census returns which you have impugned, you refer to one case in which three persons were returned as occupying a house where 9 or 10 or 11 were actually occupying it ?— Yes. 4332. Did you see that return?—I was told a return was made for three when I knew very well I was in the house the next morning and the day before, and there were as many as 13 or 14 or 15 in the house. 4333. When did you become aware of the return having been made of three ?—It was common talk all round St. George's-in-the-East about the returns in different streets and about the number of people that were entered. I think a man ought to> take each name down, and then we should be able to get the Census return, but where you allow the landlord to fill up the papers you never do get the return. 4334. Is it the fact that the landlord is allowed to make the return ?—Certainly. He is liable, but you cannot bring it home. 4335. If there is a house of four rooms and a family in each room, who makes the return ?—'The landlord. 4336. Are you sure of that?—Yes. 4337. Is that within your personal knowledge ?—Yes, 4338. Did you upon ascertaining that there were only three persons in the house that you have mentioned re- turnee! as in that house take any steps at all ?—No ; in fact, it came to my knowledge afterwards. We were talking about the returns, and the man that took them said : " Oh, but there were only three returned for such and such a house," I said: "Well, there must have been 14 or 15 in that house." That is how I really got it out. The man that took the return is now a postman. 4339. Is it within your knowledge that there was a considerable body of educated men and women co- operating for the purpose of securing accurate return's, and that they assisted the head of each family in filling up each schedule?—I do not think they do. Take the instance of my own house. The paper' was left, and I had 'to fill in who was sleeping in the house that night. I could have done it just exactly by saying there were only myself and my wife and two children, but there might have been four or five more in the house, and I need not have put them down. These foreigners put. down exactly their own family, but they do not put down their lodgers. 4340. The schedule is not served upon you, because- you are the occupier of .a house ?—Oh, yes it is. 4341. Is it not served upon you because you are the head of your family?—No, it is on the householder. 4342. Now you have given a very sad story of the con- dition of some of these places. Take that place in Winterton Street which you found in a most disgusting condition. You found five families in four rooms?— Yes. 4343. You found the sanitary condition horrible?— Very filthy. 4344. Would that condition of a house so overcrowded. be the result of natural habit on the part of these people or would it be the result rather of insufficient sanitary appliances ?—They had got a good w. c. they could use, but they never used it. They do it all over the place. It is their filthy habits. The house had been only just done up from top to bottom. 4345. Had these people been in this country long ?— About six weeks. 4346. They had not acquired cleanly habits. The result was you got rid of them ?—Yes. 4347. Were they followed at all?—I say they went- over into /Bedford Square along with the woman who took this house that lived there. The house came into the estate in 1900, .and we found this foreign woman in the house, and by-and-bve she sub-let this house, and. T 2148 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Councillor W, Belcher. B June 1902. removed away. We did not know she had removed away. She moved into Bedford Square. She was doing likewise there. 4348. Is Bedford' Square in. the Borough of Stepney ? —Yes. She was paying 9s, a week for this house, and perhaps getting about 23s. 4349. You as a Borough Councillor were evidently in- terested in these cases, and you are anxious to improve things?—Certainly I am. 4350. Were you active at all in ascertaining where these people went to, and whether the condition Ox things which you there discovered and remedied had been re- peated in the place they had gone to ?—I sent to the sanitary inspector. You will find that the sanitary inspector will give you all the information about where these people moved to. 4351. You set the sanitary inspector to work ?—Yes. • 4352. You rather despair upon the whole of improve- ment being possible under the present condition of things, and under the present law?—Just so. 4353. Are you on the Housing Committee of the Bcrough Council?—Yes, on the Housing Committee of the Borough of Stepney, and on the Works Committee too. 4367. With regard to the carting of these people from the dock or from the river side to these various places, are these people who are coming to settle down in London, or are they transmigrants on their way to America or elsewhere ?—They say all manner of things^ but I do not think you can believe a word they say. 4368. In your experience have you seen whether they have remained here or whether they have merely re- mained here for the time being ?—I have noticed ill scores of cases that they are supposed to go on to* America, but I have seen them carted away somewhere else, and I have seen them living in the . houses after- wards. 4369. Did I understand you 'aright that you yourself have been offered money?—Yes, in scores of instances. 4370. For the occupation of these houses ?—Yes. 4371. Have you experience as to whether money is largely offered and taken?—Yes, with these different j and rent collectors. 4354. Are active steps now being taken to prevent this overcrowding?—Yes. 4355. Do you in your work find practical difficulties ? —We find all the difficulties imaginable to keep people in a condition that they ought to be in. 4356. When you find actual overcrowding, and you &s a Housing Committee decide to take proceedings, what proceedings are taken?—No doubt it might strengthen our hands a little bit if the sanitary in- spector had the same power as the factory inspector has to serve a summons forthwith. If the Government would do that no doubt they would strengthen our hand to a great extent, but I believe then we should want an army of inspectors day and night half as big as our army on purpose to keep these people right. 4357. How many sanitary inspectors have you in the Borough?—There are four in St. George-in-the-East. 4358. That is not sufficient to cope with the work ?— No, there ought to be three times the number. 4359. Supposing you had three times the number, would it be possible to meet the difficulty ?—No, the evil •exists, and unless we can get rid of these people it will stick to us even if you could educate them up, and I do not believe you ever could educate them up to make them clean. Let me remind you it is not the Jewish population. It is the alien population that is coming over that is the worst. I have nothing whatever to say about respectable Jews in the district. There are some •as good people as ever Englishmen know how to be. 4360. Take Anthony Street and this other street to which you have referred. What class of people lived there prior to the present alien immigration ?—On one •side of the street I believe there is only one Englishman lives, but that does not belong to> the estate. That belongs to the Buross Estate. Of the 50 houses on that 'side 49 of them are occupied by foreigners. They are -all tailors, and they take these greeners in to get a living out of them. 4361. You Lave succeeded in improving the condition -of some of the houses?—Yes, decidedly. 4362. What class of tenant do you take in?—The Earl of Winterton will not take in anybody except Jewish ^people that have been born on the estate in these houses, or good English tenants. In fact we can demand good tenants. 4363. If you clear all tenants out who have been over- crowding, and using the houses improperly you do not fill them with the same class again ?—No, we do not. 4364. What do you find with regard to this class as to their dependence for payment of rent ?—On the Chapman Estate we have got very good tenants who always pay. In fact even in holiday week you would find 99 would pay out of every 100. 4365. Do you find that you often have to put dis- tresses in?—No, we get some bad, but very few. Not •one a month. 4366. Have you to take extreme steps with the alien population, more than with the others?—The only thing is when we find them dirty it is a job to get them ; out. That is th^ only difficulty we find. 4372. Is it a bonus to the owner or to the outgoing tenant?—I think it goes into these rent collectors' pockets. If the landlord was to know anything about it lie would not take it. It is these foreigners who go round collecting rents—the agents of these foreigners. I think that is how it has come about, For instance, in the Commercial Road there were four shops. The shops were wanted for the Capital and Counties Bank. When we came to treat with these tenants they knocked their heads all together to say they had a lease of this pro- perty, and had paid as much as £20 and £25 for the keys to go into these small shops. 4373. A short time ago, was not there a little fric- tion between yourself and the sanitary inspectors ?— Yes, there was, because I found seven more in a work- shop than there ought to be. 4374. You were more active than they desired?— Yes. I found out, in fact, that the inspector had not got the power that he has now. 4375. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Was this the factory or the sanitary inspector?—The factory inspector had not the power. 4376. Hew long is that ago ?—That is six months the same thing as you do?—If they would. 4433. You said fairly enough in your evidence what you thought was most required was pressure on land- lords ?—Yes. 4434. That you adhere to ?—Yes ; to get them to do it. 4435. That is part of the function of the State to do. Councillor Wt Belcher. 5 June 1902. but you have got150 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: ViMncillor in 0110 way or another, you can put pressure on fV. "Belcher, landlords, and if these people were prevented from —— living in these conditions, would not that have the 5 June 1902. effect, 0f stopping them .coming over?—Yes, if you put " pressure on. 4436. If those conditions were prevented from exist- ing as you are preventing them from existing in this small area, would not that remedy the evil?—You would, want to put the same pressure on the tenant as on the landlord, and then you might stop it. 4437. Does not the law provide a means of putting on that pressure ?—No, only on the landlord ; not on the tenant. 4438. Why not?—Because the pressure is all put on the landlord, and not on the tenant. 4439. The pressure ought to be on the landlord?— And on the tenant as well «,s on the landlord. 4440. 'Why is it not now?—That is the fault of the legislature that made the law. 4441. Why is there not a power of putting pressure on the tenant; the tenant must not create a nuisance? -—If the landlord lets a weekly house, he is not autho- rised to go through that house week after week to see what tenants there are in. It is the tenants them- selves create the nuisance. 4442. There is abundant power of inspection by day and night ?—But not week by week. 4443. Why not?—I do not dare to go into a house more than fly unless I ask. 4444- You are not a sanitary inspector?—No. 4445. But a sanitary inspector is armed with certain powers?—-Yes. That is what I say—we should want an army of inspectors. 4446. I grant you may want 'more inspectors. That is quite possible ; but supposing you had a sufficient number of inspectors, we have got certain nuisances which must be stopped ?—Who is going to pay the taxa- tion? 4447. We are accustomed to that. I think I see your point of view?—That is the poiitt. 4448. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to these fair rents that you speak of, you say that you get a fair reasonable rent?—Yes. 4449. But that does not prevent the question of high rents, because you have given us instances of sub- letting ?—Yes. 4450. And Lord Winterton's tenant makes a profit from the house he rents from you ?—Yes. 4451. That is another difficulty to cope with. You let at fair rents, but they sub-let again, and1 overcrowd ? —-Yes, that is right. 4452. How long have you been dealing with this alien question on the Winterton Estate ?—This last six years about. 4453. Yon have been working trying to drive these people out from overcrowding for six years ?—Yes. 4454. And you are working at it still?'—I am work- ing at it day and night. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You had not power until 1900? 4455. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You have always had the power to give notice to tenants to quit ?—'Yes. 4456. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You do not appear to give them notice till the leases fall in?—No, only since 1900. 4457. Since 1900 you have had the power?—Yes, but then we were owners of about 300 houses before. They have fallen in gradually this last 10 or 15 years. 4458. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You have always had the power over your weekly tenants ?—Yes. 4459. As the houses become weekly tenancies so your powers increase ?—Yes. 4460. You have been doing that for about six years ?' —Yes. 4461. You tell us now you have got 700 houses under- weekly tenancies ?—Yes. 4462. Do you find now, working on this night and day, that it is a difficulty which you have always got to cope with?—Yes, week in and week out. 4463. What do you attribute that to?—Because the ones we find there will be sub-let these places, on pur- pose to find as much money out of them ais they can get. 4464. Have you ever had an instance in which you hav cleared people out of one house, and they have crowded into that same house again?—Directly they get the chance, they will. 4465. What I want to get at is, do you see your way by constant vigilance to permanently put a stop to this running in and overcrowding?—We never will as long as there are people there to overcrowd. 4466. As long as these people come pouring into the River Thames week by week, they have got to be found with lodgings somewhere ?—Yes. 4467. What I want to get at is this : whether you see any hope, no matter how vigilant you are, to cop© with this thing as long as these people come pouring in ? —No, it is something like trying to put water in a sieve—as long as you put it in it will come running out. It is just the same with these foreigners, as long as they are allowed to come here. 4468. In the six years you have been working at this you find there is a decided improvement in your estate'/ —On our estate there is. 4469. But still you are working at it day and night T —Yes ; but outside the eistate it is ten times worse than ever it was. You will see houses overcrowded, and you- might have all the inspectors in the world, and I do- not believe you would get them out. 4470. Those are partly people driven from the Win- terton Estate ?—Partly. 4471. In the Winterton Estate itself it has decidedly improved ?—It has decidedly improved because we will not have houses overcrowded. 4472. As soon as you hear of them you go and make the tenants either leave or abate the nuisance?—Yes. 4473. But you have got no guarantee that if house X is crowded to-day, and you drive the people out, it- will not be crowded two or three weeks hence?—We- have got no guarantee for that whatever. 4474. Do you find that does happen ?-—It does happen in lots of cases. 4475. In the same identical house you have cleared out once, you find overcrowding again?—The next, person will overcrowd it just the same. 4476. And you have to be constantly chasing them ? —Yes. 4477. (Mr. Norman.)- The result of the action of a good landlord like Lord Winterton is that necessarily the district round him becomes worse than it was be- fore ?—Certainly. 4478. Therefore, carrying out the train of thought suggested by Sir Kenelm Digby, it would be necessary for this whole district to come into the hands of good landlords before the evil would be remedied ?—You will never get any better so long as the foreigners are allowed to have houses, because it is they that send the rents up, and tenants are obliged to recoup the money back, and therefore they overcrowd the houses. 4479. And as long as there are landlords who think - more of hiigjh rents than of the condition of the pro- perty that will continue ?—Certainly. (The proceedings were adjourned for a short time.) j)r Dr. Joseph Loane, J* Loane. 4480. (Mr. Vallarwe.) You haVk been in medical practice, I think, since 1866 ?—Yes, that is so. 4481. And in 1883 you were appointed Medical Officer of Health for the Whitechapel district?—Yes, tfhat is so. 4482. And vou held that office until 1900, when, by [led; and Examined. the operation of the London Government Act, White- chapel became merged into Stepney ?—Yes. 4483. The district of Whitechapel forms one of ther districts which have been merged into the Borough at Stepney ?—Yes. 4484. Will you be good enough to state what the-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 151 'Condition- of the district was when you first commenced practice, and what it is now; first of all, as regards the population ?—There were very few foreigners in the district, comparatively few, comparing them with what they have been of late years. In the south part of the district, which I had more, to do with, the population consisted almost entirely of riverside labourers, dock labourers, who were chiefly Irish people. 4485. (Chairman.) Would this be in 1883?—Yes, be- tween 1866 and 1883. 4486. (Mr. Vallance.) I take it you will accept Dr. Shirley Murphy's figures, that the proportion of alien population in 1881 was 13*5 P—Yes; that, I think, is -my figure. 4487. In 1895, 24*1 ?—Yes, that is so. 4488. And in 1901, 31*8?—I take that as no doubt • correct. I have not the records of the figures. 4489. So that in 20 years the -alien population has increased 18 per cent. ?—Quite so. 4490. (Chairman.) It has increased a great deal more than that in itself, because it has increased from 13 to 31 per cent. ; it is 18 per cent, of the whole population ?— "Yes. 4491. It is 150 per cent, nearly ?—Yes. 4492. (Mr. Vallance.) What has taken place in the ^district as regards clearances ?—I have a list here which shows the clearances within the district during 20 years, and they show a total of accommodation for 14,177 people dislodged and 15,754 accommodated. 4493. In what period?—In 20 years, roughly. Of course, very many of these dwellings which caused the dislodgment of the 14,000 have never been re-occupied. Some of the sites still remain vacant. 4494. (Chairman.) Which years are you speaking of? —I am speaking of 1880, practically, or 1881 to 1900. 4495. Then to make that of any use you must give nis the increase of population in the same period ?—The Census population in 1881 was 71,363, and I have it from Dr. Murphy's figures that the Census population for 1901 is 78,768. 4496. That is not a very great increase ?—Not r. aliens domiciled in these artisans' dwellings?—Yes, J. Zoane. the greater number of aliens, or by far the larger pro- — portion, at any rate, of aliens are inhabiting the model 5 June 1902. dwellings. 4526. Would you say that a larger proportion of the residents in model dwellings in the district are aliens ? —Yes, I think one might almost say that. 4527. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In spite of the fact that in .some cases they are excluded?—Yes, because there are some very large model dwellings occupied entirely by the foreigner, so that that counterbalances the rule on the other side. 4528. (Mr. Vallance.) I think the area of the district of which you are speaking is somewhere about 406 acres, is at not?—It is 406 acres, including 23 acres of tidal water. 4529. That is 383 acres of land, upon which 78,000 people are housed ?—Yes, that is so. 4530. And the density of the population at the pre- sent time, according to that calculation, is somewhere about 208 per aiore ?—208*3. 4531. Do you know whether there is any section or district of London where the density is as great as in Whitechapel ?—I do not think so. 4532. (Chairman.) Is this the Whitechapel district, or are you speaking of the west part of Stepney borough? Yes. 4533. And it is the worst, is it not?—I should not like to express an opinion upon that point. I do not know the whole oif Stepney well, so it would be impos- sible for me to compare Whitechapel with the others. 4534. (Mr. Vallance.) Am I right in saying that the Whitechapel of which you are speaking is the section of the Borough of Stepney bounded on the west by the City of London?—Yes. 4535. And on the south by the River Thames?—Yes. 4536. And on the north by Bethnal Green?—Yes. 4537. And on the east by Mile End Old Town and St. George-in-the-East ?—Yes. (Chairman.) Is that portion that the witness is speak- ing off the worst portion of your case, Major Gordon ? (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) That I cannot say. (Chairman.) Your case is not all Stepney, but you have something outside this Whitechapel district where there is a good deal of this alien immigration? iMajor Evans-Gordon.) Yes, we have Whitechapel and St. George. 4638. (Mr. Vallance.) Will you be good enough to give us such statistics as you have before you in reference to the health of the district, and also as to the vital statistics with regard to births and deaths?—I have not calculated these out specially for the Commission, but roughly, I can say that about 1880 the death-rate for the Whitechapel district was 25 or 26 per thousand, and during the year 1900 it was reduced to 18 per one thousand. 4539. How do you explain the diminution?—I think a great deal of it is due to the changed 'character of the population, and that the foreigners have an im- munity the English people cannot pretend to, and, there- fore, we thave gained in Whitechapel in our vital statis- tics by the advent of large numbers of these people. 4540. (Chairman.) When you say immunity, what does that mean ?—Immunity against disease producing death. 4541. Is it an immunity by the action of individuals, or what?—No, by race chiefly. There is no doubt the foreign Jew has far less tendency to diseases which carry off a large number of the Whitechapel people— I am talking more of constitutional diseases, consump- tion, and diseases of that kind. 4542. (Mr. Vallance.) Is that immunity of which you speak in any sense, in your opinion, due to their temperate and regular habits?—No doubt it is very considerably due to them. 4543. It has been said that the mothers tak& greater care of their children?—Yes, that is so. 4544. As compared with the native population?—- I think 'a far larger proportion of the foreign mothers nurse their children, than is the case with the English labouring population. 4545. Do the figures, which have been given by Dr. Shirley Murphy, correspond to your own experience^ that the proportion of deaths under one year to a thousand births has been reduced in 15 years some 25 per cent?—I should think that is miost likely correct. I have worked it out myself for the last four or five years, and I have it in my report, and practically my figures are in harmony with Dr. Shirley Murphy's re- turns. 4546. That is in an inverse ratio to the increase of alien population?—Yes. (Chairman.) How does that compare with other dis- tricts in London ? (Mr. Vallance.) Taking Dr. Shirley Murphy's state- ment, the quinquennial period from 1896 to 1900 pro- duced 137 deaths in one year per thousand, and the next quinquennial period 158, and in the next, 127 ; and bringing it into a percentage, you find a 25 per cent, reduction. (Chairman.) I want to compare it with some other district. (Mr. Vallance.) Southwark has gone down from 17& per thousand, to 166, a reduction of 4 per cent. only. 4547. (Chairman.) I want the number of persons per thousand who died in 1880 and 1900 ?—Over 25 per cent, in the first class and 18 per cent, in the latter. 4548. I want the number per thousand?—25 per thousand. 4549. 25 persons per thousand?—Yes. (Chairman.) How would that compare with South- wark and St. Pancras, for instance. (Mr. Vallance.) Taking all the causes of death, of adults as well as of infants, and taking the two periods 1886-1890 and 1896-1900, the Whitechapel figures show a death-rate of 2418 in the first period, reduced in the last quinquennial period to 23*38. The death rate in Southwark in the first period was 24*89, and in the last period 52. 4550. (Chairman.) It is almost the same?—Our figures may vary a little for this, reason, that I take- it on the estimated population, and Dr. Shirley Murphy is taking it on the Census population, but there is not (much difference. 4551. What I want to find out is this : These alien- immigrants represent a less amount of mortality than we find among the more Christian population of South- wark and St. Pancras?—I cannot say anything about St. Pancras or Southwark, but in the Whitechapel dis- trict, certainly. 4552. I meant the district you were speaking of?— Yes. 4553. (Mr. Vallance.) As the population is being re- placed by the alien population the death-rate has dimi- nished ?—Yes. 4554. ('Chairman.) Has not the great progress of sanitation and medical science rather tended to de- crease the death-rate generally?—Certainly. 4555. We want to know what has been taking place in other districts, so as to see whether these alien im- migrants have done better or worse in those districts ?' —Certainly, but in the Whitechapel district, where I' have an opportunity of comparing the death-rate be- tween foreigners and English, I find one has a death... rate of 15*6, as against 20. 4556. That is very important, no doubt?—Yes, that is taking the one district, and simply contrasting the - one population with the other. 4557. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Can yow at the same • time, with regard to Whitechapel alone, give us the- corresponding birth rate? Is the birth rate high and the death rate low among aliens?—Yes, the birth rate has increased considerably. In 1881 the general birth rate was 36*2 per cent., and in the 1891 Census it was 41*2, 4558. And since ?—I have not got that. There is an important point I should like to mention here. I have got the birth rate out for the different sub-divisions of the Whitechapel district, which constituted the five registration districts at that time. 4559. We have the broad fact which we all admit, I think, that the death rate among the aliens is low, and the birth rate is high, as compared with the English-:MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 153 population?—Yes. If yon will allow me, I will point this out for this reason. I have drafted this' for an •express piurpose-7—in :f;m> subdivisions of, this district, in one made up of altogether English peoiple^ thebirtha Tate js fjand j55j in the other part of the district wher^ foreigners liye, it gpes up to 48, so that the birth Tate is liigh amongst,:, the foreigners—enormously high compared with the birth rate "among the English people. ,45§QV* In Englisli; dij^triots, as, we rWill call those, ,35 ^ -and ,34 birth xates, and in foreign districts> as we call ■ them,,,it[yaries from 39 to 48?—Yes. u ■ 4S61v Vallamicm) Nowy on the . subject of over*, ; crowding, you have had a large experience of that sub- ject in Whit^,chapel,? f J , believ^ ?—Ye?s. ; ; r , . ^ , ; 4562. pan .you give the Compassion inf ormatibn iwith reg^yd te^th.^t,..with fa. ^ew illustrations,,?—-This ^mprn- inglj\wnQthe;sfir&fe»floor, for which the tenant p>$ys 9s. 6d. a week. ^he>*house consists of > eight rodms; and a work4 shop, for which the owner of the workshop paid 28s. .a^eek ;and taxps; and in1 a house at the back of this ^es^.fare ynewi, houses just-erected on* the . site : o£epe:|of the, old . cleared places) there were four rooms, -a kitchen, and ^culleryth^t house w.enifc for 12s., ;-%he» landlord, paying taxes. ^ These were all occupied by foreigners,but in a district adjoining,, a large block of buildings^ the name of which may. mention, the • Metropolitan Buildings, which are erecited under a charter, and Occupied absolutely entirely by English people, three rooms,j with a -, scullery5 and w. ci. j go for 7s. a week. There is nothing to be found in the ad- joiningsc^part of . this district under about 7s. * 6d.: to 9s. 6d. a week. Tlien l) .ha Booth; Street'Buildings/ Bootji. Street Buildings will be mentioned, I dare say, more # than once to the Commission, and I think Dr. Shirlgy^Murphy alluded to them. Two rooms there go for 8s, 6d. In one room 12 by 12 a man and his wif$ atid r|hree children live, and in the other slip l)o6t-makmg is carried on. 4^^..;.(^ajor ;^arisMordoh.) I® Booth Street Biiild- < ings a private enterprise ?—Yes; the very worst type of building, occupied, by the lowest type of people; i Jn m ost of these build ings. they are very car e^ if you want to see the alien at his woi^, AI should recommend Booth Street Buildings as being the place to go, to. ° 4565. (Chairman.) If that is so, can you give us any general idea of the master ? If we were to go to Booth Street Buildings, how many people should we find in one room as a piaximum ?-—I am afraid you cannot alw^s jiidge bjr day rvisrts^ * there; but when I was medical officer I have sent inspectors at night. I have not .got. the records by me, but the number of people who :ha?e been occupying the ®ame room has -been •startling, , • ..< 4566. (Mr. Vdllance.) How many have3 your in- spectors discovered ?■—-I am afraid to say how many, but certainly 10 or 11 in one rooih at night 4567. Adults as well as children ?—Yes. 4568. {Chairman.) I suppose these are moderate sized rooms ; some of these lodging-houses have very large rooms--have- theyin^^Sdmie^^of^ themj} Th^r vary a good deal; The new buildings, of course, have a more . limit|df area per room than you will find in some of xne old-fashioned houses. r t 4569i The- same: sex, or both sexes?--In that par- ticular case of Booth Street, both sexes,. 4570. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What sort of sized room would that be., which had 10 or 11 persons in lt ^ln Booth Street, buildings there-are : no rooms lai^er than 14 by 13 or 14. That would be. the largest, ana most of these rooms have little slips adipining- - which are always let. ,, as-separate rooms ?—Yes, and sometimes J}® cupboard outside. . When these buildings were origin- ally erected and occupied, the sanitary arrangements ° were within the houses, in the buildings, but we had 6144 those taken out and put into the yards, and bo ill the Dr. space where the sanitary arrangements, the w.e.'s and1 J- sinks were, very frequently one sees in the early mom- >. 19021 ing a bed, or some material answering to the purpose __1_ ' „ of a bed; lying there, showing that it ha9 been used } - > a during the night. 4572. For a sleeping apartment ?—Yes. The outer doors are never closed. 4573. (Mr. Vollance.) What was the result of that removal of the sanitary arrangements as regards the habits of the people ?—It rendered the houses a very great deal more sanitary. ' It prevented the fearful nuisance of the stairs always being in a- state of filth. . 4574. Did it induce other filthy habits, or did it . remedy them P.-^It improved the sanitary condition of ; the ihouses^ but tthe yards were distill, kept in a dreadful condition. The owner is obliged to keep a man eon- , ployed to . cleanse the yards every morning. If you were to go into those yards before he had been there it would astonish you. They not only use the^w.c. for the purpose for which it is intended, but other parts of the yard as well, I have even seen the coppers, which were erected in the wash-houses, used as recep- tacles too, and the night conveniences, emptied into the^& placed to save going into the yard. It has been very dreadful. 4575. In your experience, were tho:se h^]bits(/im- proved as they became longer resident here ?—Ye& ' * one usually finds the better people, who hiave lived in Boqth , Street, migrate to other parts of the district when they have been in the' district some time. They improve in their habits then. 4576. (Chairman.) Are these filthy habits peculiar to aliens, or could you find the same practices exist amongst the natural born subjects P—No^j that is alto- gether a peculiarity of the newly-*arrived immigrant. 4577. Is there an, alteration the longer they remain here ?—Certainly. We can find no better citizens than these people after they have been here a few years. The children grow up and become educated, and fine, healthy childi^n, as bright as can 'be^ they- are the brightest children we have, and the parents are much better, -I' could show you some of those who have been here for/ 'perhaps, six 'Or seven years, and their rooms are a very pattern of > cleanliness and neiatness. They oertainly improve. • • • .........^ w. 4578. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you other illustrations ?'—- I have andtheip case> where the parents live in an inher room and the mother and-daughter and one child in an outer foom, which; is really a two-room tenement— that is in the model block of dwellings; bootmaking goes on in the inner room.; so that they are carrying on an3 operative industry, besides having two families living - in the two rooms. These are instances that you will see all over the district, cl course. 4579. The important parts of your evidence, I think, will be tht> steps which have been taken at your in- stance by? your, Bo^rd for the remedy of this condition of things in Whitechapel. First of all, have you regis- tered houses, and, if so, to what extent under the Public Health (London) Act?—The 94th Section? 4580. Yes ?—Almost as soon as the Act became opera- < tive- the Board of Works submitted to the Local Govern- ment Board a set of bye-laws for their approval, and tney^were; approved immediately.; but we found that the exemption clause, which provided that where the rent . •• or charge payable by each lodger, and exclusive of any charge, for the. use by such lodger of any furniture, is at the rate of 5s. a week, and, in the case of a furnished room, 7s. 6d. a week, operated very adversely, because we had very few- places in the district which would come within the purview of the bye-laws, and, as a matter of fact, I was told by my inspectors in 1884 that they had brought up all the places in the dis- trict that they could by any possibility submit 4581. Can you tell us the number ?—279. 4582. The 279 'houses, registered were, in your judg- ment,. as many a;s could possibly be registered within the t%ms ofr the Act?—Yes,' that-is so; • : 4583.. rBi^t tb-at. was; prior to 1899 ?—Yes, I hadlm^re than once alludedr^ thei difficulty of my station, Owing to that exemption ciause; and -at last, in 1899, the Board of Works agreed to ask the Local Government Board'to jdoujile those sums, so, that for Ss. we had 10s., and for, furnished rooins: 15s. insteaa of 7s. 6d. ' With regard to furnished rooms, we need take no^^ tniotice U154 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. JLoane. 5 June 1902. that, because practically there are none. Of course, I have no experience of anything beyond that, because the end of my term as medical officer had arrived, so there was no opportunity of putting that to the test in the way of adding houses to the register ; but my sug- gestion would be really not to include any sum at all for exemption, and I think it is better to have no limit at all. Then, of course, each case would be brought up. to the Borough Council for registration, on its merits. 4584. (Mr. Vallance.) Supposing you had been able to register in Whitechapel all your tenement houses, and you had a sufficient staff of inspectors to enforce inspection and registration, what would have been the result ?-—I think very few complaints could have been made against the district under those happy circum- stances. 4585. Do you mean that overcrowding would be prac- tically non-existent?—Yes, practically you would have all the houses requiring constant supervision to be upon the register, and then, with a staff of inspectors to regularly inspect those houses you would have control of them. 4586. (Chairman.) Having obtained that, would you have -any greater power of inforcement of the bye-laws ? —You would have the power to enforce the bye-laws, but the difference would be this: Without the bye- laws being in operation, you have to go through such a long process, and1 that would all be cleared away. 4587. In a case where you found a great many persons, and there was overcrowding, and you have to get rid of them under your bye-laws, or under your statute, Jtiow would you carry out the law then?—You prosecute the owner for non-compliance with the bye-laws, and you get penalties. 4588. But what do you do with the persons who are on the premises ?—That is another question. 4589. Would you put them into the street, or into the casual ward ?—They would have to go somewhere. . 4590. But cam you suggest how we can deal with that difficulty ?—No ; I should simply be concerned with the district I was interested in, and put that into a sanitary condition, and leave other districts to do the same thing. Accommodation must be found for them some- where, or else they will crowd into some other houses, and make those conditions worse. 4591. (Mr. Vallance.) What has been the result of the provision of the law with regard to inhabited house duty ?—There was a section introduced into the Customs and Inland Revenue Act of 1890. It took medical officers of health by surprise, for they could scarcely have looked for a sanitary provision being included in a Customs and Inland Revenue Act; but, at any rate, it appears. Section 25, sub-section 1, is this: " From and after the 5th day of April, 1890, as respects England, and from and after the 24th day of May m the same year as respects Scotland, the duty payable upon an inhabited dwelling-house under the Act of the fourteenth and fifteenth years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter 36, at the rate of sixpence for every twenty shillings of the annual value of the house, with the household and other offices, yards, and gardens there- with occupied is, in case such annual value shall not exceed forty pounds, hereby reduced to the rate of twopence, and is, in case such annual value shall ex- exceed forty pounds and shall not exceed sixty pounds, hereby reduced to the rate of fourpence. (2) And from and after the said days respectively the duty payable upon an inhabited dwelling-house under the said Act at the rate of ninepence for every twenty shillings of the annual value of the house, with the household and other offices, yards, and gardens there- with occupied is, in case such annual value shall not exceed forty pounds, hereby reduced to the rate of three- pence, and is, m case such annual value shall exceed forty pound's and shall not exceed sixty pounds, hereby reduced to the rate of sixpence." 4592. (Chairman.) What is the point you are making on this?—Briefly it amounts to this-nthat if the owner of a house occupied by people of the working class obtains a certificate from the medical officer of healith that the house has either been built or adapted for the use of the people so inhabiting, and lit is m a perfectly sanitary condition, then he gets a rebate of his inhabited house duty. That is a very sanitary provision, because it ensures first of all that the medical officer should certify. 4593. That is the law now ?—Yes. 4594. And nobody is going to repeal it %—No ; I aim not aware of it. 4595. (Mr. Vallance.) As a fact, houses have been registered to the extent of 279 in the district, and cases have been dealt with under that Act 1—Yes. 4596. In what way have cases of overcrowding been dealit with? Having adopted bye-laws and having, registered houses, supposing those houses are over- crowded, what are the steps taken ?—There is a. summons taken out for non-compliance with the bye- laws. 4597. Against whom ?■—Against the owner. 4598. What is the nature of the complaint?—That it is overcrowded. There is a limit fixed of 300 cubic: feet of space per individual, where the room is occu- pied by day only, and 400 cubic feet where it is. occupied by day and by night, two children counting as one adult. Where that space has been found to be encroached upon, then proceedings are taken for non- compliance with the bye-laws. 4599. Have you taken] proceedings in many cases?— No; not in many. The number was altogether not. large. 4600. Can you state roundly in what number of oases you have taken proceedings?—In several in- stances, but not many. 4601. (Chairman.) I want to know whether the law is put in force or not. In the course of the year have you taken as many as 10 proceedings?—No; I should think not 10 altogether in the seven years. 4602. (Mr. Vallance.) In the proceedings which you have taken, have you encountered any difficulty?— No; not under the bye-laws. 4603. The difficulty has been in proceedings under the Public Health Act against the occupiers for a nuisance ?—Yes; quite so. 4604. Has the operation of the bye-laws at present, in force been salutary?—Yes, certainly. 4605. Have you been assisted by the sitting magis- trates, as a rule?—There has been no difficulty with regard to them, because the majority of these houses registered are in the poorest parts of the district, and the inspectors serve the notices once a year that in ac- cordance with the bye-laws the cleansing of the house is to be proceeded with, and the houses are so* cleansed,, so there has been no necessity for proceeding. 4606. Has there been a case in which you have pro- ceeded against the owner of the house, and he has been convicted, with a penalty, and that overcrowding has- been again discovered in the same house?—Not under the ibye-laws. Under the Act of Parliament of 1891 that has been the case. 4607. On a second conviction the magistrate has the power of closing the house?—Yes. 4608. Therefore, your proceedings' have been con- fined to the first information?—Quite so. 4609. Have you ever had any communication' from the London County Council in reference to any laxity on the part of your Board to carry out the bye-laws ? —Yes, the Whitechapel Board about six years ago had a report by Dr. Hamer to the Council forwarded to it, complaining of certain parts of the districts, and Booth Street Buildings were particularly mentioned in that report. 4610. That is in October, 1894 ?—Yes. 4611. (Chairman.) Did they complain of overcrowd- ing ?—They complained of the general insanitary con- dition of certain parts of the district, and overcrowding, amongst them. 4612. (Mr. Vallance.) What was your answer to that ? —The answer Was to put on some additional inspectors, and to reply that as much as possible would be done to improve the condition of the district. 4613. And were those inspectors appointed?—Yes. 4614. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How many years ago was that ?—In Ocoiber, 1894. I think we put on two new inspectors after that. As a matter of fact, when White- chapel caltte to an end we had six inspectors, and when I took charge we had only two, besides a number of outside helpers. 4615. Had that increase from two to six any cor-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 155 responding benefit to the people?—I believe it decreased the sickness rate immensely. Every additional in- spector produced a corresponding benefit. It was manifest, 4616. A benefit to the sickness or the overcrowding ? One could only appreciate 'statistically the sick rate and the death rate. 4617. (Mr. Vallance.) Going bagk for a moment to the registration of houses under the bye-laws, are you able to place on the register the artisans' dwellings blocks ?—No. 4618. Has that been a difficulty?—Yes. 4619. (Major Evans-Gordon.) So that Booth Street Buildings do no coine under the bye-laws?—No; we have no hold on them in any way, except under the Public Health Act, and that, of course, has been oon- eJtantly applied. 4620. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is the rent limit that keeps them out?—Not only that, and now that the limit has been altered that would not have any effect whatever; but it is simply the question of the definition of a house. 4621. (Mr. Vallance.) With reference to Booth Street Building^, would you say that the sanitary accommoda- tion there was sufficient ?—Oh, no; those houses ought never to have been erected at all. 4622. Is there some excuse for the specially dirty habits of the people there?—No, I do not think any- thing oould be an excuse for that; they are the filthy haibits of the people who oome uneducated in any sani- tary way. 4623. You have encountered a little difficulty with magistrates when you have taken proceedings against owners under the Public Health Act?—For overcrowd- ing, do you mean? 46(24. Yes ?—Where the overcrowding is in one f amily •overcrowding—that is, too large a family, magistrates will not convict. That has been my experience. 4625. Where you have taken proceedings against the owner, has the magistrate required that the proceed- ings should be taken against the people creating the nuisance ?—We have only taken proceedings against the persons creating the nuisance, because that has been the direction of the Thames police-court magistrates. They want you to take the culprits in the order in which they are placed in the Act, and, first of all, it is the individual creating the nuisance. 4626. Then the net result of your evidence is that these block buildings should be classed as tenement houses?—Yes, quite so. 4627. What in your judgment are the weaknesses of the law as regards this overcrowding?—I think you have touched on the most important points. 4628. (Chairman.) You would have no restriction in respect of the rent, and you would have more inspectors to work the bye-laws ?—Quite so, and inspectors visit- ing these houses regularly would be aible to be in touch with every change that takes place adversely, and keep them in good condition. 4629. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you anything to suggest as regards an amendment of the law to enable a public authority to cope with this question ? Have you formed any opinion as to whether a person receiving the rack rent of a tenement should be assumed to have know- ledge of overcrowding, and that he alone should be the person proceeded against? (Chairman.) You are ■speaking of an amendment of the criminal proceedings under the Act?—Yes, it is under the head of " Nuisance." I would make a landlord prime defendant in all cases of overcrowding rather than the tenant creating the nuisance. 4630. But supposing the landlord was some person living a long way off?—Then he would have an agent 4631. But it is criminal proceedings ?—Yes, but it Tnicrht. be varied so that a fine was inflicted. 4632. It is a fine now ?—But I would still make the owner responsible defendant in the case. 4633. (Mr. Vallance.) The non-resident owner would not be the owner under the Act?—No, it is tie person taking the rack rent. 4634. (Chairman.) He may be non-resident although taking the rack rent ?-—He may be, but, as a matter of fact, in nearly all these cases in the. district I am speak- 6144 ing about, there is some agent who comes and collects j^. She rent. That man knows as well as possible when j jroanr places are overcrowded, and he is the man I would _— make responsible for it 5 June 11>02. 4635. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The agent?—Yes, 'he knows. 4636. (Mr. Vallance.) He is receiving an illegitimate rent?—Yes. 4637. By reason of that receipt he may be assumed to have knowledge?—Yes. In one house the other day, a house consisting of three rooms in one tene- ment, each of those rooms was occupied by a separate family. It is a comparatively new house. I saw this myself, and as I came out the agent was collecting his rent, and he was outside in the lobby. I called his attention to it. He knew well enough what was going on, and he could have informed his principal. 4638. (Chairman.) Supposing he could, aind his prin- cipal said, I will not do it, and the agent is fined out of 'his own money. The agent says : " This is most inhumane. You are taking this rack rent, and I say no such thing should be allowed/' The owner would say : "You may go where you like."' Are you going to make -the agent liable under those circumstances?—I would make somebody liable other than the poor person who has to live somewhere. 4639. I quite agree. The Act says : " On the receipt of any information respecting the existence of a nuisance liable to be dealt with summarily under this Act the sanitary authority shall, if satisfied of the existence of a nuisance, serve a notice on the person by whose act, default, or sufferance the nuisance arises or con- tinues/' That is in the first place. Then: " or if such person cannot be found on the owner or occupier of the premises on which the nuisance arises." Would it meet your view to strike out those words " or if such person cannot be found," and make the occupier or owner of the premises liable?-—Yes. 4640. At present I am rather dissenting from your view of making the agent liable; he may be a clerk?— I mean somebody other than the poor wretch who is occupying the room. 4641. You want to make the person who receives the money from the occupier liable, rather than the poverty- stricken lodger ?—Yes, quite so ; that is my case. 4642. (Mr. Vallance.) Would there, in your judg- ment, be a public advantage to have a registration of every person who has an interest in these houses?— No doubt that would bring a moral influence to bear on some of the wealthy owners of property in neigh- bourhoods such as Whitechapel. 4643. (Major Evans - Gordon.) While we are on this point, how would you deal with sub- letting? We have a case, for instance, before us to-day, of a woman who takes a house from a good landlord, who charges her a reasonable rent. She sub-lets these rooms, and makes a large profit out of the house without any knowledge of the landlord at all. 'Hie landlord's agen<+ comes to the house and gets his 9s. for the week, but does not know that the four rooms of that house are sub-let, and bring in a profit of, perhaps, 10s. or 15s. to the woman who has got the original lease. Whom are you going to tackle in that case ?—May I put it that that woman rather stands in the position of the owner ; she is the indi- vidual above the person overcrowding. I think you could go for her under those circumstances. That is a common case you are mentioning, and I have illus- trations of that frequently. 4644. These cases are common?—Very common. In some cases it is almost, I was going to say, necessary. . 4645. Why ?—For instance, I had a letter some time ago from Dr. Shirley Murphy. He first of all asked me some questions with regard to some new buildings erected in Whitechapel, as to how it was that those plans came to be passed and the houses built- I re- plied that they were built in accordance with the Building Act, and that the district surveyor had ap- proved the plans. Then, of course, the plans had beer submitted for drainage purposes to the Whitechape' Board of Works, and naturally approved by them, as they were in accordance with the regulations. Sub- sequently it appeared that parts of these premises which ought never to have been occupied at all—base ments—were inhabited separately. That caused Dr. Murphy to make some inquiry as to the way in which these houses had been built and allowed for the pur- V 2156 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : 2)r. pose. They were in accordance with ^he Building J, lioarie. ; Acrfc, andwe found that numbers of these basements . '^7—* .1 Wfeie being illegally occupied ; Mt in serving notices 4 June 19d2. on the owner, to abate the nuisance and close these — ;%rein4«®i> lie adopted 1 what Was a very simple manoeuvre; he simply called upon the individual who -ihad 'tihe shop and aim or two rooms - above to , take the basement as well as his rooms, for what he bad been .letting it to ,a separate tenant for. Now the result of that was thi&—that he could let it ,to' some, other ;fa?uily for Meeping purposes^ and tlhfen sub-let the'rooms whidh he Jias set free up above. The whole law was, of course, set at de£ance. 4646. What is your remedy for that?—I am afraid theory is no remedy easily to be foreshadowed for that. 4647. For these evasions of the law and the over- crowding resulting from them, you do not see any Jifcmedy at all ?-—I am afraid not, unless you strike out from that section of the 1891 Act applicable to cellars and underground dwellings the word " separately— it means a room separately occupied—they may sleep this room, although it is very insanitajy, if they " another room in thesame house. If that room ~is: M 'such an'insanitary condition that it ought not to * be 'dceupied j separately,* it'; cer$rinly ought not to be occupied in connection witlt "iii^^Mier'^ifl: l 7 5 . B^^se that rent by letting the bad ' ^boriis and o6cupying the "good Ones yourself ?—Yes; ' tha"t is a firery common arrangement. 4649. While we are on that point, to get at the owner is a very di%ult thing 1 have always been told so in the East End ?—I "have no' doubt it is. 4650. You cannot iind put?who does own the houses? .-—But if you have a registration pf all people, having ail interest in, ,the property that would obviate the diffi- culty: - '7' ...... 4651. .Original holders and sub-lessees and everything ? •"^JSverybody who is interested in the property, from the'very highest, I would have on the register. 4652. {Chairman.) Would you limit it to lodging houses only, or where would you limit the registration of leasehold property?—I, should put no limitation on it. j r;46§3,, You would. register every owner of every house ? ;46§4. Everywhere ?—Yes. j - 4655. In, London ?—Yes ; it would be invidious to make distinctions. ^ ^656. It might be invidious, but if you do not make ^distinction, why , should a man, who is the owner of a house in Belgrave Square, be^ registered ?—What I mean is this, that a house with regard to which there can )w iio: excuse now for.putting on the register,, still, under V bther circumstances, and by force of altered conditions, . in a few ye»ars may become one of these very worst tene- ment houses. „ , j 4-657. It is a very broad proposition, that we are to ./• register every person's title in these hundred* and thousands of houses, in order to meet this evil. Look = at the expense of it for one thing?—But it would certainly not be prejudicial to the owner, even in Belgravia, to have his name put on the register. 4658. It is like giving a dose of a particular medicine to every human being, in order to cure small-pox, which exists among a few?—If giving a dose to every indi- vidual would cure small-pox, I think it would be a very good thing. '. 4659. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your point is that with- >btit' some system of registration, at all events in these districts that are badly affected, it is very difficult to yget hoM of the' hbuse owner?—That is so. 4660. And, failing that, the law has been compelled to tackle the poor people who are herding in these in- sanitary conditions ?—Yes. As a matter of fact, the %orst tenement houses I know of are those which have been built in the best and most favourable circum- stances ; houses that have been occupied by excellent "families fifty years .ago, - with mews attached to them, have now become the very worst class of tenement houses. . 4661. Your cures, as I understand you, are registra- tion and an increased number of inspectors, and a much v wider registration of houses undeif the bye-laws ?-^Yes. 4662. (Chairfrtan.) You want no rent limit at all£— That is so. 4663. (MajorEvans-Gordon.) Bringing, in fact, under , the. Act every house which is let in lodgings, or where lodgers are taken in ?—Yes. - - 4664. Supposing you had -all those things to-morrow —increased number of inspectors, and so on, and very much'more active ^administration of the law generally,, have you any suggestions to make as to what is to be- come of these unfortunate people you are going to turn out?—No; I think you must provide for them outside- the Metropolitan area. 4665. That is your cure ?—Yes, and find some means, of conveyance for them into the districts where they ... work. It is no good, if we rely on driving away these . aliens, it is no good doing that, and it would be prac- tically useless, unless you can take markets and schools, as well. Many of these people, who can really afford, x "to li^:out oflthie!district stibk^here because! of that. ;; 4666. The cure you suggest is a wholesale trans- plantation of population ?—At any rate, a provision to prevent the increase of the present condition of thing*. 4667. To what do you attribute. this condition of things, so bad in the East End as it is ?—There are- . ,;Very great attractions for these people coming over. London is the magnet naturally. < ..r 4668. The magnet to foreigners coming from abroad f —Yes.. .. . 4669. Am I right in taking it that you attribute the- present conditions of things in the EastEnd to the- inflow from abroad Oh, yes; I think so. , r t v 4670. That is borne out by what Dr. Shirley Murphjr said. He said that in a period of, I think, 10 years,. 8,500 English people have been displaced and their places have been taken by 22,000 foreigners ?■—I have- these figures myself, extracted from my own reports. In 1881 there were 5,293 Russian Poles and Russians out of a total of 9,660 foreigners of all nations. 4671. (Chairman.) In Stepney?—This is White- chapel. That gives 13'5 per cent, of th& population for the fetal foreigners. Then 10 years later we had 24*1 per cent., when we had 13,538 Russians and Russian Poles-Mhat is almost an increase of nearly three tiinesj in three years—as° against 17,961 foreigners of all nations. So that it was the Russians and the Russian Poles who had increased so enormously, and not the> other nationalities. 4672. Do you regard this inflow from abroad, these figures that you see, coupled' with their very high birth rate, as a very serious problem?—The natural increase of births over deaths will go on, and you will be in- - creasing your population., apart from any further im- migration ; obviously that must be so. 4673. You have two sources of supply of these- foreigiiers ; you have :this natural increase, which is very much higher [ than the natural increase of our - own population, and the constant inflow from abroad t —Certainly. 4674: Do you regard it as a very serious and grave matter?—I do. ' 4675. And your remedy is the wholesale trans- plantation of these people outside?—Yes, I am only suggesting that that might be a remedy, but as to its; practicability, I am afraid I cannot offer any sug- gestion. 4676. That is a suggestion, and that would be an excellent thing, but is that a practical suggestion?— It might be if some philanthropic agency was incor- porated into the building. I do not think you could expect it to> be done by the municipal authorities en- tirely. 4677. Anyhow, - whether it is done by private enter- prise or by the municipal authorities, this problem is . a burden thrown upon somebody owing to the incur- sion of foreigners from abroad ?—Yes. 4678. It is an extra burden thrown upon us %—Yes.. 4679. Now another point. You are taking these special things.. Supposing you have sanitary in- spectors and all the machinery you demand at your disposal, and you clear out .a certain street—we will take any street, or two or three streets, but take one street, which I will call Street A—would not- this, con- dition of things arise absolutely in practice—that while you were clearing out Street A, at that identicalMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1ST moment when you put the people into the street you might have shiploads of foreigners arriving -in the Thames and coming into the same street again?—Cer- tainly. n4^8(^,.^en «that amounts to what has been called -$>o^ring in water at one end of; the vat, and, pouring it q@©ff at the other I—Somebody suggested turning the tap off at the inlet. ; Th^t is what I aim coming to as a possible ^^utaon^ I want „ to know whether these suggestions of : ^ansplanting these people and hunting them up an army of inspectors, and. driving /them awlty, is . a practical one as opposed to stopping this thing, ,,. which ypuadmit is a grave problem, at its- source, or, at all events, checking' it at its source. Would you regard that as a solution?—I do not think I can, be- ! 16ause the natural increase is so great, and the district remains stationary as regards area, that, even sup- :t posing you cut off further immigration^ in the course of ?.time you will still go on getting-your increased overcrowding. 4682. You say that the problem is an; immense one r from the if act of the natural increase alone?—Cer- tainly. _ £Qic$^3xi Without any additions1 f#oitt'v,j-ub¥oad-l?~Cer- i tainly. 4684. Do you keep touch at all with what the addi- tions are from abroad?—-No, my last figures were for the half-year of 1895. • 4685. What did you make them ?—655 ; that is the ,jrfirs^ihajf of 4895. , The way I got these figures * was through the cholera order from the medical officer for ^itfye part,. .who was Dr. Collingridge. In 1893, I have ;1894 rlyQ46^and; then in 1895 655 for the , jfirs t half get that. Xir. answer to that Dr. Murphy said, " No, house destruc- tion accounted for overcrowding to a certain extent." I said, " House destruction does not, 'because house de- struction is compensated for by the increased size of the houses." I think that is a fair statement of the position. What I ask is, if it is not due to influx from abroad, to what is the overcrowding in Stepney due? We have got the fact that in every other district in London the population is going down, but here in this district, which is subject to a constant influx from abroad, we get overcrowding conditions?—Yes. I have said before, on Monday, that I had no doubt that the overcrowding was in considerable part due to immigra- tion. It is an element in the thing, and an important one. 4755. You say, "considerable part," I my "en- tirely " ?—I should not have said that, because I think you would probaibly have had increased rents in Step- ney, and that would give rise to overcrowding. 4756. (Chairman.) Take central London,. If central London has been diminishing its population, and if the houses remained in statu quo, why -should not Stepney have diminished its overcrowding unless alien immigra- tion had come in. Why should not Stepney have followed the rest of central London and decentralised by going further afield ?—I think the fact that Stepney is diffe- rent from other central districts in that way is very likely and very largely due to immigration, but there is another point that this Commission, I am sure might well consider, upon which I am not able to give precise information myself, and that is, how far the opportunities of communication within and without Stepney have kept pace with the- growth of London. 4757. What do you mean by " opportunities of com-. munication " ?—I mean railway travelling, improved tramway services, etc. 4758. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I must insist upon that point, 'because I think it is a mosft important point. I want to know what the other elements are in this1M ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. S, F*. Stepney problems besides foreign influx to cause over- crowdings. If there are. any other elements* what are they ? Yoi^ have gone so far as to say that foreign influx 1902. ^complicates the. problem, to. a considerable,. extent, I Want to know to what the balance is due?—*In other woiMsy ^wolild the overcrowding; have existed if there had be^n »no immigration, and if so, what would it be due to. 4759.: That is hypothetical ? 4760f (CMrmari.) No, I think that is your question. Just answer that?—I think; there,is a tendency in central London—I will not say in Sitepney oifl^—-- 4761. We .want Stepney 1—The percentage of popu- lation^! a-rti using the . Census , figures now—4ii . oyer- cfWdea: tenements is not very, greatly larger .in, Step- ney in 1901 than in 1891 " — ' ? 4762. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where does that lead us ,'to'?—-rl have the London figures here as a whole. . Further, I notice that in Stepney the proportion in Stepney living in overcrowded tenements in one room is^ actually less in 1901 than in 1891, and tha/t is a , condition that ha^s prevailed very largely in London as a whole, - 4763. (Chairman.) You have got off Major Evans- Gordon's question. Admitted that there is some over- crowding, you say as to part, that is due to alien immi- gration. • What are the other reasons that you think have < caiiised ; that overcrowding ?-—I think the growth of- London affects - the central districts in raising rents and leading to overcrowding ill the central districts, and :that Stepney would share with other districts in any result of that sort. 4764; {Major Evans-Gordon.) But you have told us that:in totherdistricts; and, iri fact, universally in London,i the tendency: has been directly opposite ?^— What X waut to. .distinguish between is overcrowding withinc.t'he tenements and diminution of population within: the total;! area,' which are two different things altogether. 4765. Should I; be interpreting you correctly in say- ing that in: your opinion the overcrowding in the East End of London is, in a very large measure, due to the " alien influx ?—I think so. < : v 4766. And you ^re not clear as to what the other Teasons; are ?.—-No. I am assuming that the other reasons would be those which are shared by other ^central districts in London, in which overcrowding has /also occurred. 4767. I have got here the County Council Report upon overcrowding- It is dated the 13th February, 1902, and oh page 3, in the column "Number of per- sons f i^iew only. ^ ^ vn. ,,. ;; r vk> , 479®!:' (Majpir iihat -point of view they lower the standard oi life in the meighfeburHood' generally T'+K;n 0/V -f,av d« 'i-'b1 „„o_____________ o___._____^ . ^I ' thlnk in so'far as they ■enu^'to ^feo'niote overcrowding they are a disadvantage tbtlie;ipopulatio^L. 11 ' ! / :ih 47^r}^ow,- with regard to your remedies as to this overcrowding. I undenstand in the first place you: ad- •vogate the re-form^fcion« of. the bye-laws?—Yes. 4794. Those bye-laws, I understand, have bqen prac- tically- re-formed now ?—Yes: I have not seen the bye- laws exactly as they stand. , • 4795. I ..have- here the bye-laws as approved by the A;Looal, Government Board. They, are going to .be put ^ibefor§' the r: Stepney Borough Council- on.- Wednesday , pex%•;|l.nd^1j^y:^•h4veI been approved of, and they will in .^^§^|iiijiy- •-i.be- ^asse^^ Bo 'you the.'-npt fixing; fany rent limit at all for lodging-houses in the foye4awsj?'—I think' it is an advantage not to fix that. 479j6>r«That ^ the same remedy as was recommended ij/'Sjl; Loiane,.; i He was, very strong on ,'thaft point. '^he^J 1b^4^y^ as'drafted ..probably will"fee..passed on Wedtiesd-ay. They do not put any rent limit at all, and that would bring under the edgni^knce of the sanitary -authority-e^eryi house^ takiiig :in a lodge^l—MVerjr lh^use let in lodgings. : ' 47$7. ..Is not that taking in a logger P—If a family occupiedL one house who took in a lodger who boarded there';f think ' ; < 479g. HeTYould;not be a lodger ?—It is not clear to me ■that that would be a house let in lodgings. y j^tfGfejAnyhow^ there would be an enormous number fpfvli^aes in the East, End. We know that nearly all jfcav$: ledgers; ^taken in who do not ; bqard—-living separate. - They are separate families in most instances. -It would bring an enormous number of houses under the .•«t>g|Bisaiice 0^ the sanitary authorities ?r—;Yes, a very large number. i : ! . 4800! I waut-broadly to get at the remedies you re- ^iiiitiend 'f0 e alihfcf with this donditiOii of things. You &&y, Cat all events, bye-laws,' and then the active, ener- %eti(? enforcerirent v6f the powers that exist ?—Yes: - t4Spi. Or that will exist under, these bye-laws ?—Yes. I have referred to this class of buildings which may not "be found to be subj ect to the bye-laws—the 1 arge block buildings. , .. 4802. You would include the block buildings P—-Some of them I am sure require regulation. ' 4803. And ought to be included ?—Yes. 4^04. - But whatever bve-laws you have, it mainly de- pends upon the way matters are administered in the .locality,?—-Yes, certainly; .' :({, ".... - 4805. I think your words were: " The great thing is - willingness to enforce" ?—Yes, I think that most im- portant. ; 4806. Do you say that hitherto there has been an unwillingness to enforce ?—My best way of answering -fchat is to give the number of houses on the register at ♦certain times, and then the Commission will be able to •see how far they Juave been enforced. I find in a rep orb •I gave to the County Council in 1897 the number of houses registered wasIn Whitechapel 64, St. George's- in-the-East 17, Limehouse 69, Mile End 180; making 230 in all. 4807.- (Chairman.) Is that in the Borough of Stepney ? —That is in the total Borough of Stepney.' When the Ixmdon Government Act came into force the numbers were 665 in-Stepney as a whole. 4&08. (Major, Evans-G-ordon.) Those were ,all that they had the right tq inspect:?-^rA 11 they had registered, and therefore had the power to regi'late and inspect at ..night under the regulations. . 4999. Had they any power to inspect other houses ?— They have a general authority. 1- 4810. To go; in anywhere if it is pointed out to them ? ^-Wh'erever there is believed to be a nuisance 6144 4811- Over and above t^e 600 that you mentioned ? —Y&s,' over and' £bov.^ tho!&. j ^ ; 4812, Therefore their'attentions were'not solely con- fined s to rj60b hpuses ?—No, ]b,ut ;tfie greater powers |he^e bye-laws . conferred> ^ere: only exercisable in. respect of 665. housed'in-Stepney. ; . „ , ( •• 4813;- Bid the Dounty ©ouncil take action- upon that? —-I forget 'exactly what action wasvtaken upon that. - 4814. Admonitions were sent by the County Council to, the local authority;?^—"^es, the County Council ad- dressed letters to the sanitary authorities. 4815. To the Borough Council: Sanitary Authority?— No, I do not think they have addressed letters to the Borough Councils- vet. The Borough Councils are now making their bye-laws and getting ?into w^orkv 4816. When was the last communication 'to the local authority ?—I could not remember. 4817. Did not you Mentioii 1^897 ?—In 1B97 ; those figures I gave were in a report I gave to a Committee of the Council, and the existing sanitary authorities were communicated with. * !/ ' ' ' - 1 •• - - 4818. What I want to get at is when was .jtjie last j*e- :monstrance addressed -by- the. Cpunty.:-Cpimcil-..?- When did the .;County Council la^t jise ,their powers ?t—I could not recollect the date, but it was towards the close of the time during which the old sanitary authorities existed. 4819. But not since the Borough Councils have come into power ?—No ; I should like to look the matter up before I give a definite answer, but I do not remember at this'moment any distinct action. 4820. You have been waiting for the Borough Councils to get into the saddle before taking any action ?—Yes, that has been so. 4821. You have practically got your bye-laws, and you have got the powers of the County Council, "and the Public Health Act. When you have got all this machinery, what I want to know is' how, as a practical man; you would proceed to put it in force?—The pro- cedure of the bye-laws includes the"measuring up <.r the rooms, and the ascertaining of how many people may properly sleep -in* jt^em^-vTheii - the - -next tet£p is to point out to the owners where there is overcrowding, and to call upon those owners to abate thstt overcrowd- ing, and the next step is to jjroceed under the bye-law, and there they can proceed against the lodger, or against the landlord. • 4822. Landlord or keeper " . it , is -called ?—Yes 5 it would be as well if there is. very great overcrowding to proceed gradually no doubt, and take the worst 'Cases first, and enforce the bye-laws. < 4823. What provision is to be made for the1 people you are going to turn out in this way ? You have got a population here of 99,000 living under overcrowding conditions in Stepney. If yo.u enforce you^. b^e-laws unquestionably you can'-'tuth-"all"*these^ pebble Mt$ the street.- What are you going to do with them ?—May I point out that the overcrowding condition within the meaning of the bye-laws is a very different thing from overcrowding within the meaning of the! Registrar- General, and you must not assume that that number of population would be displaced by bye-laws made under the Public Health Act. 4824. What proportion of them would you take ?—It is very difficult for me to say what the relations would bp between the two figures, but. it would be a very much smaller proportion than that. f 4825, You. cannot give-any estimate as to what the proportion would be?-—No, I could not. It would re- quire a house-to-house inquiry to tell you that. 4826. Do you know what steps the Borough Council of Stepney have been recently taking in this matter ?—I know they have been measuring rooms. I was told that they had a very considerable number that were ready to be dealt with. 4827. Her© I have a report of the Stepney Borough Council as to the overcrowding in St. George's-in-the- East. The examination was taken between 6 and 8 a.m. —two hours in the morning. A few streets were taken, and her£ is the result. Taking one street alone— Waterloo Place—I find No-s. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Mp 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 171 18; 19, 20, and 21, are all ma grossly overcrowded eonclition, and would all need to o& dealt v/ith. I need not trouble the Commission with this Dr. Muvflky: 9#iine162 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Br S. F. whole of the report, but here is a very interesting list Murphy. shewing a very bad state of overcrowding in Waterloo '''' -- Place, Wellington Buildings, St. George's Street, St. 9.,Jiine 1902 .George's Buildings, St. George's Street, Cannon Street --Road, Cable Street, Shorter Street, Christian Street, and Winterton Street, Winterton Street being an espe- cially interesting one, as it is on the Winterton Estate, where the landlord takes every possible care apparently to prevent this sort of thing going on. What I want to point out is that here in a very small proportion of St. George-in-the-East alone is an enormous number of houses containing very many inhabitants who if these houses were dealt with under the bye-laws would be driven into the street to-morrow. What I want to know is> what is going to be done with these people when they are driven out, and that is only a fragment of the case? —I believe if the bye-laws were steadily and systemati- cally enforced people would find their own accommoda- tion. $28. What I want to point out to you is that the influx of aliens is certainly steady, but it is not gradual—it is very rapid ; 1,900 odd have arrived in the port of London in the month of April alone. What 1 put is this : If you drive all these people out to-morrow, will not you be in the same position a couple of weeks hence ?-—I think not. I think it could be done. It would want a considerable number of inspectors and a good deal of backbone on the part of the sanitary authority, but I believe the difficulty would be very much less than appears at first sight. No doubt there would be oases of individual hardship, but I believe the thing is to be done, and this is the proper way to do it. 4829. Where, in your opinion, are these people to be accommodated? Would it not result in their imme- diately overcrowding some neighbouring district I—1 think they would be scattered over a larger area. That would be the effect of the operation of the bye-laws. The very fact that has been before this Commission, that they are really centred in the same area, shows the need for the enforcement of the bye-laws. I think if the bye-laws had been enforced that never would have occurred, and the best thing is to enforce the bye-laws and spread these people out over a larger area. 4830. You know, of course, that there is a great ten- dency on the part of these people to keep together, especially this alien population ?—Yes. 4831. There are questions with regard to their re- ligion, to their food, to their schools, and to their language ?—Yes. 4832. Which keep them together ?—Yes. 4833. Therefore your solution is to disseminate this state of things in the neighbouring districts. Where ? t—I should turn the people out of these overcrowded rooms,' and leave the matter practically to settle itself upon such lines as it must settle itself; that is to say, the people would migrate to greater distances. 4834. You regard putting these people into the street as a practical remedy for overcrowding, and you do not tell us how you propose to deal with the constant and steady stream of people who are coming in. If it was a finite problem, if you state "We have got so many people, and we can distribute them about," that is one thing, but what I put to you is that this problem is always going on increasing day by day. People are coming in much quicker than you can move them?— Here is a remedy to hand which the law has provided, and which ought to be enforced. I believe these condi- tions have grown very largely from the fact of the law not being enforced before. 4835. You say your remedy of putting these people out and driving them goodness knows where, without making any arrangement for accommodating them, is a more practical remedy than stopping the inflow coming in ?—I have no experience of stopping the inflow of people coming in except by regulation of their houses, but I can quite imagine that if the sanitary law were en- forced it might affect the tendency to come in. I should feel myself on perfectly safe ground in saying that if they are to have the proper amount of cubic feet space in their dwellings if they come, and if they find they cannot find homes under such circumstances, it might affect their desire to come. (Chairman.) Using the term " stopping the inflow coming," do you mean stopping the inflow at the port, or do you mean stopping the inflow coming into houses that will not contain them? (Major Evans-Gordon.) I mean at the port. I mean restriction. (Chairman.) Could you not consider whether yon cannot stop a house receiving them once they are turned out? 4836. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I have a letter her© from the clerk to the Borough Council, Mr. George Clarke, in which he says : "At the present time special observation is kept upon houses which are suspected 6>i being overcrowded, but we often find that after abating a nuisance one week fresh tenants are admitted another week or1 so afterwards." That means this, if this letter is correct, that as fast as you deal with the thing, it is filling up again; it is pouring out water at one end of the vat and pouring in water at the top ?—I think the answer to that is that the way in which it is dealt with has to be considered. If there is no further disadvan- tage to the person allowing overcrowding than receiving a notice, you will not get anything like the same at- tempts made to prevent the overcrowding as you would if a penalty fullows. If the proceedings that are talien by the sanitary authorities merely amount to serving a notice, the person who has permitted the overcrowding is placed under no particular disadvantage. On the other hand, if the sanitary authority proceeds to obtain a penalty for infringement of the bye-laws, as they can do by going before a magistrate, the person permitting the overcrowding would find it was very much to his disadvantage to permit it, and he would not allow it. This question has been dealt with in Stepney in some degree by the serving of notices. Nobody is pre- judiced by receiving a notice. 4837. (Chairman.) A notice under the Act?—Under the Public Health Act. If these houses are reg l*- tered, and instead of proceeding by notice there i. a sufficient number.of prosecutions and proceedings tak -n for infringement of the bye-law, the result, I believe, would be quite different. As I say, I do not think the people can be turned out into the streets in a week or a month. 4838. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We cannot take any correct figures, but we know there is an enormous number of people living under illegal conditions in Stepney, and this inquiry into these few streets in St. George's shows that practically all the houses are in this condition. You say you can deal with it by degrees, but meanwhile, what I want to put to you is, as fast as you are dealing with it, or faster than you are dealing with it, these very people are coming in, still flowing in, on the top of the measures that you are taking, and coming in by a thousand or two thousand per month?—I think that if a certain number of penalties were recovered in proceedings taken before magistrates the persons letting these rooms would begin to look out for themselves, and you would produce an influence on a great many more houses than those con- cerning which proceedings are instituted. Steacty and systematic enforcement of these bye-laws would, I be- lieve, ultimately be successful. I do not doubt it at all myself. But you cannot do it all in one week. A thing that has grown up in a number of years cannot be remedied in a very short time. 4839. To what do you look for ultimate success ? You have to face the fact that thousands of these people are coming here, and you have to put them somewhere. Is there anywhere to put them ?—I do not think you have to put them somewhere; they have to put themselves somewhere. If they find they cannot come into Stepney they will go elsewhere. Now, the thing is entirely un- controlled. 4840. Then you would get the same problem elsewhere unless you had an enormously increased house accommo- dation ?—Then the sanitary authorities in those other districts must proceed and deal with it as they should do. 4841. You would allow these people to come here merely to chase them round and round, and hunt them ? (Chairman.) Subject to gravitation. 4842. (Major Evans-Gordon.) According to Dr. Murphy there would be a constant system of chasing. (To the Witness.) How many sanitary inspectors would have to be appointed if you are going to do this?—I am not prepared to answer that without a great deal more con- sideration. No doubt a considerable staff would be wanted. 4843. (Chairman.) How many are there now ?—I think they havo two inspectors appointed for Stepn©yMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 163 for this matter of the regulation of houses let in lodgings. I do not for a moment suggest two would be enough. They would want a staff very much larger than that. 4844. (Major Evans-Gordon.). How many should you say?—I would rather not express an opinion. 4845. It is a very important point ?—It is an im- portant point, and I should be very pleased to consider it if the Commission wished. 4846. (Chairman.) You cannot give us an exact number, but surely a very substantial increase would be required ?—It would be a substantial increase. 4847. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would you say 20— roughly?—I do not think you would want 20, but I would really very much rather not express an opinion upon this matter. 4848. We will leave it at that—that it would necessi- tate a very large increase in the number of sanitary officers ?—It would necessitate, a material increase. 4849. And that, of course, is another burden thrown on the ratepayers of the district in order to keep down this inflow from abroad, or to deal with it, is not that so P.—No doubt it means expense in administration. 4850. To what do you attribute the apathy on the part of the local authorities to cope with this danger?—I think that the original reason of the apathy of the old local authorities was that the regulation of houses let in lodgings was opposed sometimes to personal interest, and a want of appreciation of the necessity for it. 4851. (Chairman.) Must not you add to that, and also that they did not know where the people were to go if they werei turned out P—That has been put forward a great deal by sanitary authorities, but it is an argument that can be used by people who are not desirous of pre- venting the overcrowding. 4852. (Major Evans-Gordon.) My point is that it is all very well sitting here or anywhere else and formu- lating these schemes, but when you come to the question of enforcement and driving these people in the streets you are also faced with the fact that as fast as you drive them into the streets you have thousands more arriving in the river ; and the view one hears expressed is that it has been a hopeless problem to tackle ?—I do not agree with that at all. I believe it is quite a possible thing to do, and I think it can be done, and should be done. I think the difficulty is infinitely less than would be thought of by anybody who. looks upon it as hopeless. That it would want more courage and persistence m dealing with it I do not deny for a moment, but I have no doubt whatever myself that it can be done, and that these conditions could—overcrowding particularly—be very largely remedied under the Public Health Act. 4853. Do you know of places in London—you have mentioned Kensington and Westminster—where the law has^ been successfully enforced ?—Kensington and Westminster are the two districts in which it has been most largely enforced. It has been enforced in different degrees by other sanitary authorities, but generally in London it has been very badly enforced. 4854. And, therefore, even in the districts where they are not confronted with this tremendous influx from abroad, it has been found difficult to administer the law ?—It has not been attempted really. That is to what failure has been due—the want of effort or attempt to deal with this thing. 4855. Supposing you had got this ideal condition that in all parts of London there was an immense activity started in every one. of these different boroughs, then, surely, the problem would be complicated to an enormous extent, beca/use there would be no houses for these people to go to P The point I am putting is that if you had an active authority in one circle, and a less active authority in another, you would from your over- crowded district, where the active authority existed, ~be driving your population into a circle where less activity prevailed ; but if they were all equally active, where would the people go ?—London is always grow- ing, and fresh house accommodation is being built. I p>nnt ± wan *3 to insist upon. 4855*. With regard to the conditions under which t-hese people live, have you visited them in their houses?—Marny times. 6144 4856. Frequently?—Yes, frequently, 1 have inspected the houses in Whitechapel. 4857. When was the last time ?—A few weeks ago. 4858. All the streets all over that part of London? —I cannot say I have inspected every street. 4859. Not all, but a great many ?—Yes ; I have in- spected a great many. More particularly my inspeo tion's have related to proceedings under the Housing of the Working Classes Act. 4860. Have you ever been over Booth's Buildings ?— Yes, those I am familiar with. I am not familiar with Whitechapel street by street, in the same way that I should be if I were medical officer of health of the district. 4861. Do you know, with regard to these people coming here, that their ideas of life and sanitary ar- rangements, and the use of closets, and so on, are of a very primitive kind ?—I have not noticed any special difference between them and the native population. 4862. You have not?—No, I have not. I should have expected to have found it, but, as a matter of tact, I have not found it. 4863. What time of the day have you been there— in the early morning, or at night?—I know these houses better in the day time. I am familiar with common lodging-houses at night as well as day. 4864. Are they all houses under supervision that you have visited ?—No; I have been to many tene- ment houses that were not under regulation. 4865. You would say that the conditions under which these people live are not worse than the conditions unc?er which our own people live?—I would say this, that the condition seems to me to stand very much in relation to the condition of the house, probably when they come into it. I mean this, that there is pro- perty in that district that has not been properly main- tained. People come into rooms that are not clean, that have got vermin in them, and one cannot expect thorn to maintain proper conditions. I do not think these people have had a chance in that way. But I have not found any reason to make me distinguish specially between this alien population and the native population. 4866. We have had witnesses before us, and shall have more, no doubt, who tell us that they have seen many cases where the use of a water closet is ignored, and the yards and staircases and corners of rooms and places of that kind are used for that purpose, and the places are in a very disgusting and terrible condition. Have you never come across that yourself ?—Oh, yes, and if I had been living in those buildings, I should pro- bably have been a contributory cause, but the fault is not necessarily with the people. I am speaking of places where the water closets are practically open to the public. Water closets in that position cannot but become filthy, and the cleanest inhabitants in the world could only have added to the nuisance. 4867. What do you mean by open to the public ?— They are accessible from the staircase and the street, and people can walk into the house from the street and use these places. 4868. Have you come across the native population, the ordinary English working man, with habits of this kind, too. 4869. (Chairman.) Subject to such a condition of things?—Subject to such a condition of things, I should say it would be very much the same. 4870. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is only supposi- tion because the people who were actually living in this way were the alien people?—I have come across very filthy conditions quite of the same sort, where the same opportunities of fouling these places existed. May I just mention one thing in this connection P Some time ago I took particular note of a number of houses I was going into to see whether the water-closets of the tene- ment houses occupied by these aliens wer^ dirty, and I found the whole difference was where the water-closet was accessible to* the public and where it was not ac- cessible to the public. I did not find them dirty; they were well maintained and kept olean, and they struck me as being used as reasonably, enrtainly as the »vm. 4871. (Chairman.) When you saw this state of things existing, did you do anything? Is there no means of preventing such a terrible condition of things as this ?— X 2 Dr. S F. Murphy. 9 June 1902.164 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : r^S.^. $<*, my ^o^.^wagrthe place .Major Gordon 'urjyk% has mentioned—Booth Street JBuildiifgs;v- There wasa '*-ssaam prosecution. .abo^t^them, b-ii^ these water-closets were coliftfti^i^v'iiiy-#;w^y "tfet,v was Jd^med to be neC&sskry —........... f oi<>tM& ^jo^ula^ny)because it ;was said they - had: parti- cular habits#^ thing is this, that -if - they ha^d... proper accommodation . providedfor them, -and. as 'L say the people who have been coming in f4h® street fQutside^ ?&xel^d£dr mnd fthey' were kept under lock and key, this sort -of thing would not have happened, at all.: - ; •f;4872i :,W}i^t did* you do when you saw' a Condition of thitigs which-jwas ia disgrace to this country ?«^-There were proceedings by the White factiof^their being5sc> overcrowded ?r—I know these'Hiildihgs sof Wellothat I am quite prepared to^ay they have not >beeni maintained at all as they should be, and. that it would be heart-breaking. Work for any clean people co- go and live in them under conditions of decency. That is to say, if .aliens are- allowed to como oyer herefl and go into .places of that character, it is not- ,a maftter. of surprise . at - all that dirty '• conditions ean .be associated with them. ■J -4881.: (fJhairm'ari.) Assuming your statement, as I do, to be perfectly accurate, do not you'think it a public scandal in this great metropolis that such a state of things' should' ber.allowed by the law to exist ?—*Yes, my Ibord/ I think that there ought- to be Stricter en- Torcpm^nt'of the samtai-y law in -these places ; but I think the difficulty- about Booth Street Builctings nlay turn a good deal on the inability to regulate them, a matter to which I attach considerable importance.; i?:}4882.-As the law now stands ?—As vthe 'law- now stands. " ..............v' * , 4883. (Major Evaris-Gprdon.) Then with regard to the satisfactory feature of the vital statistics. The higli birth rate and the low death rate are botb contributory influences in complicating this problem among the foreign population ?—In so far as the^.,contribute to the population. ; 4884. You say these people's death rate, is low and' the birth rate is High; and, I suppose, we may infer from that that these people are able to live under worse con- ditions than our own population, and to thrive nnder them ?—-I think that very much of..the; difference, be- tween the two death i'ates of the1 Christian .population: and the-alien population- is due to the fact that'.the latter being very much more careful in the way they live, and being much more .abstemious,, manifest le^s disadvan- tage,'^perhaps, from living in a crowded city. - 4885. Have you ever studied the condition under which these people lived before they came here ?—No,T am not at £11 familiar with ity l cohfess. I have" seen a little of it in some continental cities, that is ito say, in some parts of Vienna. ; 4886. With regard to phthisis, you say that this is- not a prevalent disease among them?-^-I am speaking; from a limited experience with regard to * that area with reference to which I have the facts before me, and I. find a very low phthisis death rate. 4887. I should like to quote to you a passage from at pamphlet entitled, " The Persecution of the Jews in Russia," issued by the Russo-Jewish Committee The cooping up in towns is beginning to tell most terribly oxx the morbidity and general vitality of the Russian Jews, who alone of all their co-religionists fail to show superior vital statistics to those of their neighbours. . Doctors, used to credit these with immunity from phthisis. But of recent years the number of rejections for this disease,, which cannot be malingered, was among Russo-Jewish recruits 6*5 per cent; against 0*5 of other Russians. For other diseases and for feeble constitution ato less than 61*7 of the Jewish recruits were rejected- against but 27*2 of the ordinary Russians." That would point to the fact of their not being immune at all events from phthisis ?—Yes. 4888.' You have not noticed that the overcrowding Conditions increase that disease at all events ?-—I'-.think one ought to compare the same Jewish population over- crowded with a Jewish population not overcrowded to get the lesson. I was taking an area which is over- crowded by a Christian population, and comparing it with another area, but I have not sufficient or full information about phthisis in the Jewish com- munity to enable me to Vspeak with any certainty about it. ■ 4889. Then at the end of the statement of the evi- dence that you were going to give before the Com- mission, you mentioned some dreadful places yorn have come across, where these people are taken in when they arrive ?•—Yes ; they are very bad. 4890. Do you know that these were merely places: where they were passing through ?—I do; it was in that way I came across them, because the .question arose as to whether these places were common lodging- houses, and that was how they came under my notice. 4891. Are you aware these 'places are constantly full %—From time to time they are full, I understand. 4892. Practically then, though the individuals may changej the conditions remain, and keep stationary ; they are always living there?—JI am told they come- and stop a few days, and then go away. It is not the- same every night. 4893. Ships are arriving every day of the week But I am told they come in rushes, ' 48941 Is there not any' power under the sanitary law to; deal with these people ?—I think it Is Bubjeot prob&bly to the Common Lodging-house Act, but the extreme1; difficulty1 is to get the evidence which is re- quired for a conviction. The County Council pro- ceeded quite recently against one man, and did obtain a conviction. He was . using his place in ,the way of a common lodging-house. The difficulty is more ia getting the evidence than in any other way. 4895. The evidence was apparent enough to you. You saw the terrible condition of things; would not that be sufficient evidence ?—There are several points which liave to 'be' proved to show that a house is a common lodging house ; for instance, the people oceupy-MINUTES OF, EYU)ENCE. 165 iptig. the house must be strangers to each other to make t^te -house a common lddging-houSe. - ' u \ (j4896. (Chairman.) Which are the common lodging- h^use statutes ?—They-are ihe statutes of 1851 and 1853. '"4897. (Major Evans-Gordon.) "You say this in your' statement: "On Thursday last the County Council £r6,4ecuted a man in St. George's-in-the-East for using Ejus-blouse'as a ^oiftmbn lo'dging-hoiise without it Being approved and registered." 1 That is an offence, I sup- pose?—-Yes ; that is an offence.1 '1 {^898. ? This House s wfys -quite r unfit for -the, purpose, ajid the keeper a s!Pole, who could not §pea^ tilnglisli^ was quite unfit to k^ep such a house. This Howse "fre- quent^ received num^ of aliens. The , charge per night was 2di The man was convicted, ,and fined.£2 and costs. , . Another house I saw the other day; the house: rwas i slet : in tenements, and, the man twho occu- pied the hasement> who is a rag-sorter, .receives aliens. On* r¬her occasion, the County Council inspectors found a number of these persons housed iu> a donkey- sh^d, and ^,t ^another time in the, street without any sheltfer whatever. I amu told that an agent in London, acting for the person in Russia or .Poland- who re- ceives from the aliens a sum of money to coyer their ' expenses to their ultimate destination, deposits them with, whoever will take them, and keeps them for vary- ing periods until a suitable ship can , be found. I am satisfied that proper provision should be made for these people during the short period they are in London;" That is a very serious state of things, and what would you suggest should be done to' remedy it ? am sure there ought to be provision made for these people, and they ought not to be allowed to go anywhere, as in other cases. The question is as to Wh&' itouldr do; this, and that I think is a very difficult qf&estioiiV I- am not sufficiently familiar with the ques- tion as to whether these people could be made to pay a' sufficient; sum vto cover' expenses. • 4800. It all comes down again to a question of accom- modation. You Have to use more houses to put these people^ in ?—-I think there would be no difficulty in providing'accommodation of a suitable sort ; some- thing :in the nature, I was going to say, of a public institution; a place under regulation or control. 4900. There is a place of that kind—the Jewish shelter—but that does not apparently accommodate enough of these people?—The Jewish shelter only:takes in men, and I think a limited number of men. The poor J^ws' shelter is now a common lodging-house, and, itregis tered ajid dealt with as a common lodging- hsus^:: That, is a very useful institution', and it is mee,ting,; with regard to some of these people,, the circijmstancosofthe case. Then there is another in- stitution, the Sarah Pike Home, for which there is accommodation. for girls; but that exists primarily, I understand, not for the purpose of providing accom- modation for poor people who do not know where to go, but for the protection of young girls of this kiijd, to ensTlre their being placed in safe hands1. V t 4901.' (Chairman.)Most of these institutions: repre- sent separation of families; they do not represent movement of the whole family?—No. In fact, the only place I know where the whole families go are places of the sort that Major Evans-Gordon was refer- ring to just now. • 4902. (Major Eva/ns-Gordon.) Have you reason to suppose from what you have seen that a number of places of that character exist ?^-~I know of others. f J4903: Iii your knowledge, are there houses of a similar bad character ?—Yes. Hoirible condition^ ?—Bad conditions. It may be "said for these people that they come after a voyage, aiicrtkttd in some "tenement, Without any proper .pro- vision1 being made for them, and they are circumstanced in a most unfavourable way, and they have to make the best^tif it until they are sent off by ship. :,ri90;5. -"You have.no. actual proof of how many of these peopje do not stay here; you do not know -that they have gone on ?—Whenever. !;hear of a number, of people being found -in a house, inquiry is made: to ascertain whether, it is a common lodging-house, -and in that w:ay that house is- .kept undeT. observations , 4906.! A hriuse of rest f or * transmigrants would not be ar common- lodging-house within *the meaning of the idct^Slseare & • timber . of' points which have to be proved before a house is a common lodging-house people have to be strangers to each other. ; 4907. {Mr: NSrma'n^ You mean not related to eabh other Yes. 4908. Strangers in blood, not strangers in the ordi- nary sense of the word?—I think strangers in the general acceptance of the word. ; ;: . 4909. ]SJ", sfc°P ? Surely it is more necessary to deal with those . who are going to stop than to deal with those who are going on ? 1 say that they both. want dealing with. I say the sanitary authorities ought to enforce these - laws; but their want of accommodation is more of a special sort, more than is found in the. ordinary tene- ment houses, which is why I say it deserves special consideration from that side. 4917. You said that this influx, looking at it from a sanitary point of view, was, a detriment to the people generally. What do you say about any form of filter through which these people should pass? I want to point out to you that there are two filters through which they have to pass when they go to America. There is the filter through which they have to pass . before the captain of tlie ship, who will not take them on board if they do not conform to special specific-- regulations, and there is the filter on the other side* • of the Atlantic. Would you recommend anything of that kind here? I am not prepared to make any such suggestion, I say these people are a detriment so far as they induce to overcrowding, and that, I believe, is- a matter which can be dealt with by the sanitary authority. 4918. We had a professional man, an oculist, before us, who told us about a certain disease of the eye that he thought to be prevalent among these people, and ho made some suggestions* Do you think a sanitary in- spection on arrival in the river to cope with such a thing as that would be an advantage?—No, I do not think so. I' think I know the condition of the eye that was referred to, and I have found it generally in over- crowded districts, whether occupied by aliens or Christians. It is a very common condition among the poor Irish—trachoma. 4919. With regard to this drastic administration of the law against overcrowding, what do you think would be the effect upon rents?—I think the rents would pro. Mbly Ml. I think if people were not allowed to let their houses to so tnan'y tenants the thing: would be determined'by the ability of the tenants to pa,v and therefore rents would fall. 4920. You consider there would be better circum- stances at work, which would be the cleansing- and putting these places in order and so on? People "would •have to get compensation for that somehow, would not Dr . S. F. 9 June 1902.166 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. S. F. they?—Yes, but I do not think that would be suoh a Murphy. very large item. At any rate, I do not believe it would .—— lead to any increase in rents. I should think if there 9 June 1902. is any change at all it would be rather in the direction --of diminution. But that is a matter of opinion. Adjourned for a short time. 4921. {Mr. Norman.) One word about the Census figures. I understand that you simply take them aa they appear, without looking inito them or criticising them in any way?—I take them as they are. 4922. You are not officially aware that a good deal of doubt has been thrown upon the validity of these Census figures?—No, 1 have nothing to do with the taking of the Census myself. I am not officially con- cerned in it in any way, and I have no greater know ledge than anybody else about the matter. 4923. You simply take them as they are—right or wrong ?—I simply take them as they are. 4924. I want to ask you a question or two with regard to the better care that the alien population take of their mode of life. You have said they took better care of their mode of life, and that they lived more careful lives. Bid not the results that you got at in that respect rather surprise you ?—The low death rate that I found in areas occupied by these people rather surprised me, and then I began to look for the oause. I was necessarily dependent very much upon what others told me as to the way in which these people lived. For instance, absence of intemperance. I saw no sign of intemperance among them myself, but I was not living among them in the way that would be re- quired to test such a matter myself. 4925. Their wages, I suppose, would hardly admit of intemperance in many oases?'—In answer to that I can say that where people drink, however low their wages are, the money will go for drink rather than for food. 4926. We have had so much evidence upon the point, .and t)ie fact is not denied, as to the overcrowding and insanitary condition and the smells, and the great poverty, and the very poor food, and not very much of it. It must have surprised you to find such remarkable statistics in such surroundings ?—Yes, I was surprised. But I will say this, that I should distinguish betweer. the overcrowding, which I looked upon as a very definite fact with regard to these people, and other insanitary •conditions. For instance, I have not found their rooms particularly dirty. Indeed, in many respects they have little ways of making their rooms look clean and attrac- tive by putting up curtains and little decorations, so that I 'do not think they compare unfavourably with the rest of the population so far as the cleanliness of ,-their homes goes. 4927. You said a moment ago that you had not had so much experience of this as medical officers, for in< rstance, living on the spot?—No, that is so. 4928. Are you aware that we have had a mass of evidence befoTe this Commission wthioh would contradict a great deal of what you have said, with your more limited experience, about the conditions in which these people live and their pleasant apartments, and their curtains and their general state ?—Of course, everybody does not see things with the same eyes, but I am per- fectly certain of this, that I have seen quite enough of the conditions under which these people are living to be sure of the accuracy of my statement. I am per- - fectly satisfied with it myself. 4929. You are perfectly satisfied with your own state- ment?—Yes. 4930. It would follow that, in your opinion, with regard to those who have given us evidence whose lives are passed among these people, and who know them intimately and all their surroundings, their evidence would be untrue and inaccurate ?—I give the result of my experience, which is not the same experience, as if I had been medical officer of the district, I do not know what Dr. Loane has said. 4931. I was speaking of one or two of the other witnesses—Borough Councillors and Registrars^ and people occupying official and semi-official positions there, to say nothing of private witnesses?—J should ratUch a great deal of importance to any statem-nt Dr Loane made, because he would approach the thing abso- lutely impartially, and he has had a very long experi- ence. *2. People having such vital statistics under suoh conditions must possess extraordinary stamina and ability to live on comparatively little food under diffi- cult surroundings; in fact, the best possible equip- ment for competition with a race requiring more food and ampler surroundings to do its work?—'Yes, and of course there are other questions. There is the ques- tion of the provident and wise expenditure of money, making it go. to its full extent, and the provision of food and clothing, and so on, and that may be an ele- ment, and probably is, I should think. 4933. Our evidence has been to the effect that masses of these people get only just food enough to keep life in them—tea and bread and a herring ?—That may be so. 4934. In the notes of your evidence that we were sup- plied with—not your evidence as given here, but the statement of the evidence you were going to give—you say: " I do not know of any reason why the enforce- ment of regulations with regard to houses let in lodg- ings should not suffice to deal with the greater part of the overcrowding of Stepney " ?—Yes. 4935. Since you wrote that I judge from some of your replies to Major Evans-Gordon that you must nave rather changed your mind ?—I do not think so. I hope I have not said anything to-day that makes me appear to have changed my mind. It has not been my infcen tion. 4936. Under cross-examination by Major Evans- Gordon you said this constant influx of the aliens very greatly complicated the question, and was a very diffi- cult matter ?—It makes it more difficult undoubtedly than in another district where there is not this influx, but I am perfectly satisfied the thing could be dealt with none the less. 4937. I rather gathered—I have not your exact replies before me—that in one or two of your answers to Major Evans-Gordon you seemed to think the question of im- migration must also be dealt with to some extent or in some form ?—Speaking from the sanitary point of view I do not see why the Public Health Act should not be equal to it. I should not propose to go outside that law. 4938. Speaking from your side of the question, would you not deal with it in iany way whatever?—I am not discussing the thing here from the economic side. I am limiting myself entirely to the sanitary aspect of the case, and I see no reason why the law that is ap- plicable to the whole population should not be good enough for this particular class of it. 4939. Are you aware that all the local witnesses that we have had so far—Alderman Silver, for instance, and Mr. Barrett, the Registrar of Births and Deaths, and Mr. Belcher, the representative of Lord Winterton's estate—all take diametrically opposite views to yours on this point ?—No, I did not know, but I am not con- cerned with their views at all, because I am perfectly satisfied that I have seen enough of these people to form a very good estimate about them, and I feel certain I am not in error about it. 4940. Then, again, it follows that if you are not in error on this point, these other gentlemen, who have lived all their lives in these parts, and have to deal with it day by day, must be in error P—I do not want to impute error to them. 4941. I want you to face the fact. Your more limited experience is put against the very much greater experience of a number of witnesses who have been called?—I would like to say this, that I have not heard the various witnesses, and, if I had seen the exigence of the other witnesses, I might find them agree- ing with me. For instance, the witness whose evidence I should particularly have liked to have heard would have been Dr. Loane's. If he has differed materially from me, I should like to look at it very carefully. 4942. I have not seen a copy of Dr. Loane's evidence yet, but we have had these gentlemen called before us, to whom I have referred. I want to draw your atten- tion to the fact that those who have great local experi- ence do not hold your views, particularly on the point of dealing with this matter of enforcing the housing regulations. They say, positively, in their opinion, it would be absolutely futile to attempt to solve the matter simply by turning the people out into the streets?—I can only speak from the experience of a good many years as medical officer of health, and I s^y the names you have mentioned to me are those to whese opinions I should not attach very much importance in such a connection. I do not think they probably have come in contact with the question.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 167 4943. Why not?—I do not think registrars would know very much about satisfactory regulations for houses let m lodgings. 4944. Besides that, we have had called several officials of experience?—In Stepney? I think they have had very little experience in Stepney of it. I should not look to Stepney for experience of the registration of houses let in lodgings. 4945. Would you consider that Councillor Belcher, of the Borough Council,. and the manager of Lord Winterton's estate, is a person who has had experience of this matter?—If his experience is limited to Step- ney, I should think it was not worth very much, because they have not administered the regulation there at all efficiently. 4946. They have tried to, as far as they could ?—Oh, no. 4947. Have they not brought up cases before the magistrates ?—In a very feeble way in Stepney. I am practically familiar with what they have done in Step- ney, and I should not look to the experience of Stepney if I wanted knowledge as to the administration of the law relating to houses let in lodgings. 4948. Your suggestion is that you would have the sanitary laws enforced in a wholesale way with a strong hand ?—I- do not remember what words I used, but I fc/iink they want efficiently enforcing and persistently enforcing. I attach a great deal of importance to the fact that the work should be done regularly ? so that the people are educated into expecting proceedings if the regulations are infringed. I attach a great deal of importance to the moral influence of prosecutions. One does not want to be penalising everybody, but, if the law is enforced equally throughout the popula- tion, and it is known that overcrowding will be dealt with, I think the population will very soon re-arrange itself. 4949. You would admit, of course, that the enforce- ment of these laws would result in turning out a large number of people into the streets?—I do not know how many, but it would result in a considerable displace- ment. 4950. While we were turning those people into the streets, van loads of others, amounting to thousands a month, would come pouring into the same place. Do you seriously suggest that as a solution of the housing difficulty ?—I have said all along I am not saying that the whole thing turns upon the enforcement of the regulations with regard to houses let in lodgings. I think there is such a thing as the question of dealing with the amount of house accommodation. To go be- yond that, I look upon the question of opportunity of > travelling to and from the district as a very important one, so that people should be able to live" outside. I am not limiting it to the sanitary question, but it is mainly a sanitary matter, which can be dealt with under the Public Health Act. . 4951. You would have the streets in a given area and at a given time filled by people -who had been dis- housed by the authorities, and, on the other hand, people are pouring in from outside, and you regard the enforcement of sanitary laws as a solution of this ques- tion ?—I am not at all sure they would begin to pour in if they found themselves liable to prosecution—if they were found to be overcrowded. I think the fact that overcrowding was going to be put an end to would very soon be learnt, and learnt, not only on arrival in England, but even before the people come here. 4952. Can you give us any idea wfyy magistrates are so loth to enforce the laws that exist at present ?— It is very difficult to say, but X think it has been from a feeling of tenderness to the people who would be dis- placed. 4953. You think the magistrates' decisions have been besed on feelings of tenderness?—Yes, I think it has been sympathy for these people. 4954. That is rather a severe criticism of the magis- trates ?—No, I do not think so. I do not wish to be critical upon the magistrate®. 4956. A magistrate is supposed to enforce the law whether tender or harsh ?—Magistrates do more than enrorce the law in a rigid way. It is a patent fact that one magistrate will inflict larger penalties for an offence than another will. 4956. That is personal equation that would come in m any case, but there seems to be some reason why several times, when prosecutions have been insfituted j)r. & for an appalling state of things, such as was described Murphy. to us this morning, the magistrate fines the defendant --- is. and 2s. costs. Tenderness is not a sufficient ex- 9 June 1902. planation of that?—It may be that the magistrate has —-- not looked upon the evil of overcrowding as of so much importance as I should myself. 4957. May it not also be that the magistrate, w?~fch his knowledge and experience, knows that the dis- housing of the people is not a solution of the question, and, therefore, he will not exert all his powers ?—I do not think the magistrate would know more about the matter than any other people. 4958. But might not that be his view?—I cannot tell what views the particular magistrate may have. I can quite imagine some people might hold that view. My own opinion is very 3trongly that the only way of dealing with this thing is on the lines I have men- tioned. 4959. I am trying to get you to suggest to the Com- mission some reason for the uniform action of the magistrates in this matter. Is it not that the magis- trates think better some house than none for these people, and under these conditions ?—It may be so, but I think the easier plan would be to ask some of the Metropolitan magistrates, who have dealt with these cases. 4960. If it be so, then you find yourself, not only in disagreement with the local authorities on this point, but apparently also in disagreement with the magis- trates, who will not enforce the law?—I am not sure^ that the magistrates would not enforce the law. I think very likely, as the result of this Commission,. there may be in the future less difficulty, if there has, been a difficulty in the past, in enforcing the law. 4961. But w'hat is the specific order that the magis- trates make? Are people turned bodily out of the, house?-4Do you mean under the regulations? 4962. {Chairman.) Take it either way—either by the-. Public Health Act or the bye-law ?—The magistrate can make an order for the abatement of the over- crowding, and then there is a period of time, during which the people are given an opportunity of com- plying with the order of the magistrates. 4963. Supposing the order is not obeyed, and the • overcrowding continues, is there not a specific order made for them to turn out ?—I think under the Public Health Act it is a penalty. I do not think it goes: beyond that. 4964. {Mr. Norman.) Is there not such a thing as a closing order ?—Yes. 4965. Actually closing the place altogether ?•—Yes. 4966. Which would have the effect of turning the people into the street?—Yes. 4967. Why do not the' magistrates more often do that m these terrible cases ?—I think there has been some unwillingness, judging from the small fines that. have been inflicted, to impose penalties. 4968. In other words, they do not take your view- as to the proper solution of this matter ?—That I do- not know. 4969. It follows, does it not?—I should be pleased' to answer for myself; but it is difficult to answer for- somebody else. 4970. ^ou said a moment ago that there was an unwillingness in the magistrates' mind ?—I think there has been an unwillingness in the magistrates' mind. 4971. Because they do not hold your view of the solu- tion of the matter ?—I am not able to state what view they hold. I am judging from the small fines that have been inflicted for overcrowding. 4972. If they held your view, they would inflict the maximum fines, would they not ?—Oh, no; I do not think so at all. There is judgment and discretion exercised m dealing with these matters; but as a matter of fact, the number of prosecutions in White- chapel for overcrowding have been scarcely one in two or three years. 4973. (Chairman.) The section I was thinking of is Section 7 of the Act of 1891. 11 Wliere two conviutions for offences relating to the overcrowding of a house or part of a house in any district have taken place within a period of three months (whether the persons convicted were or were not the same), p petty sessional168 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : & F. court may, on the application of the sanitary autho- Mu&phy. rity, order the house to be closed for such period as '*• (the court may deem necessary. " I suppose closing June.1902. t house as a lodging-house; means that the people been in proceedings under, the ,.Bublic:Seal4li^Act«againstrtlie-;-Qeciipiers for a nuisance f (A.) Yes ; quite so." There are new bye-laws, but under,the old bye-laws they, proceed .as well as under the Public Health Act. The bye-laws were made under the Public Health Act, were not they? 4979. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The bye-laws that Were •enforced were under the Act of 1866, were not they ?— r They were made under the Public Health Act. 4980. (Mr. Norman.) You have read these proposed bye-laws for Stepney, which we understand are going to be sanctioned ?—No ; I have not seen them yet. ■ I have seen the one relating to the occupation of rooms, but I have not seen the bye-laws as a whole. 4981. Do you know the corresponding bye-laws; of the Bethnal Green sanitary authority?—I have seen them, but I have not got them in my mind now. 4982. Are you familiar with the case of Weatheritt v. Oantlay ?—Yes; that is the case I referred to in • .connection with it. 4983. Would you say in a word what the effect of that decision has been?—The effect of that decision was that a block building containing numerous tene- ments was not a house let in lodgings, but that each - tenement was a house, and unless it was sub-let was mot subject to regulations .made under section 94. 4984. That was the decision ?—Yes. > 4985. What has been the effect of that decision?— I do not know what has been the effect, but it is quite a recent decision. It was a decision in the beginning of last year, so that the effeot could not be very wide- spread yet. 4986. You are not aware yet that that has had the effect of almost nullifying the operation of the bye- laws in Bethnal Green ? I am told myself that not in more than a very small percentage of the cases which . • they would like to deal with as overcrowding can / they do so, in consequence of that decision?—I do not think that has been the case in Bethnal Green, because the omission to regulate houses existed long before that decision, I think. * '' . v(Chairman.) Apart from the witness's observation, the effect of that "decision is clear, that in resjfect , of all these large blocks of buildings, it exejmpts e&ch o®e of these blocks from the operation of the Act. (Mr. Norman.) Yes. We shall put in evidence from Bethnal Green to a contrary effeot to the statement just made by Dr. Murphy; but the point I am coming to is this—that the part oi the bye-laws which under th^.s decision has stultified, as I say, the action of the Bethnal Green sanitary authority recurs precisely in the new bye-laws proposed for the Borough of Stepney, and which we understand are just about to be sanctioned. 4987. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That would be so; If I understand it rightly, the effect of this decision is prac- tically,'to take out • ot the operation; of the bye4aws what are called tenement houses ?—^Blocks. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where there • are blocks let 4n separate tenements," and the tenements are not them- selves sub-let, then the bye-laws do1 not apply. (Chairman.) As each tenement contains a family, and therefore it : the occupiers of the tene- ments on that site to withdraw and leave?—Yes, I think the Housing of the Working Classes Act provides that more than a certain number of houses, I think 15, cannot be pulled down without the consent of a justice of the peace. 5075. There was not an actual provision for the re- housing of the inhabitants of those 15 houses at the time of the clearance ?—No, there has to be some clearance as a rule before there can be any houses built. 5076. Have you, in your experience, observed there has been any serious inconvenience resulting to poor people who have been displaced?—I think they have experienced difficulty, but it has been perfectly prac- ticable to carry the thing out. 5077. You have not found they have had to have re- course to the Poor Law ?—That I cannot say. It hardly comes under my observation. 5078. It has not come under your notice that there has been any serious difficulty?—No; but it has been perfectly practicable to carry out the Housing of the Working Classes Act, which requires, from time to time, the removal of a number of persons from their dwellings. 5079. So any rehousing scheme is a scheme subse- quent to the clearance of the site ?—Yes, generally. 5080. Hfcve you, in your experience, found that the persons who have been displaced have been provided by this rehousing, or have they been dispersed to the-^ four winds?—They have dispersed. 5081. (Major Evans-Gordon.) As I understand, only eleven of the original occupiers of the buildings 011 the Boundary Street area came into the new buildings?— I know it was a very small proportion. 5082. (Mr. Vallance.) What would be the special ad- vantage of an attempt by the public authorities to re; house, if the poor persons displaced are not provided for there and then?—It provides a better class of ac- commodation in the neighbourhood, and people round about would leave the accommodation they are in, and go into it, and vacate their homes, which would, in turn, be occupied by a population of a lower grade. 5083. Is there any special public advantage in pro- viding for the housing of a superior class, if they have already the means of providing for themselves?—I think there has been an advantage in providing ac- commodation of a better sort—it has raised the stan- dard in the district very often. It has got rid of an unhealthy slum, and put something of a respectable sort in its place. 5084. You have got rid of an unhealthy slum, and' you have put up in its place artisans' dwellings, so at- tractive, as to provide for policemen, postmen, and5 men of a higher class. Is that an advantage to the district, do you think ? Is it not attracting that class from other districts?—-I dare say it is attractive to people from outside. 5085. So any attempt at rehousing by a public autho- rity, after a clearance has been effected by the poor having been dispersed to the four winds, has only the effect of attracting a higher class from another district? —I would not say only that. I suppose the people in the neighbourhood would be most cognisant of these buildings being built and ready for occupation, but, I think, if you want information on that subject, Mr. Harper, who Was here recently, would be able to tell you where the people come from who come into the buildings erected by +he County Council, and as to Y 2{ • / 172 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. S. F. Murphy. 9 June 1902. whether they come from far, or whether they come from the immediate neighbourhood. I think that in- formation is obtainable. 5086. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is there any informa- tion as to where the other poor people have gone top— Yes; they were watched in Boundary Street, when that neighbourhood was cleared, and they have been watched as far as they could be watched. You can get that better from somebody else than from me. 5087. (Mr. Vallance.) With reference to the immi- gration into the Port of London, and to the arrange- ments for the reception of these people, I take it that a certain number are drafted to the Jewish shelter, or Borne kindred institution, and they are dealt with until they are either transmigrated or get into occupation of other places ?—A certain proportion. 5088. Is the machinery for the reception of these people such as is satisfactory to yourself P—I am afraid I do not know anything about the machinery in con- nection with the shipping. All I know is they are met by people and brought down to this institution. I have been over the institution a good many times. It is a common lodging-house now, and is on the list of buildings that have to be looked after, and it provides suitable accommodation. 5089. Would you be in' favour of a system of regu- lation for the reception of these people where they require a probationary accommodation? Would you regard a system of regulation where the expenses are met by capitation payments by or for the immigrant? —I think it would be a great advantage to have ac- commodation provided at the moment. I do not see any objection to its being financed by some such method, but the second point is not one I have thought out at any length. 5090. Would it not, in your judgment, be an advan- tage in being able to follow somewhat these people, and to insure that they are transmigrants and their going into definite accommodation?—I should think there would be an advantage in knowing where they went. It might particularly be useful if they came from a district infected, say, with typhus. 5091. With regard to the remainder, families who do not accept the shelters, too many of them are dumped down near large buildings, and become at nightfall absorbed with the population. Could any- thing be done, in your judgment, to prevent that in its first inception ?—I think it might be, if it was known where they were going to ; but I should like to go beyond that, and require that unless people were known to have definite and proper accommodation fco wilich they were going—-these people, in their passage through London—they should be taken to some place that was registered. 5092. You 'have already given u,s, as your opinion, that if the local authorities are active and systematic in their dealing with the question of overcrowding, there would be little cause for complaint, and the thing would gradually remedy itself. Would this suggestion I have just made with regard to dealing with the im- migrants in the first instance contribute to that end ? —I think it is very probable that it would. 5093. (Sir Kfinelm Digby.) To go back for one moment to these blocks of buildings, would you attach very great importance to those being brought within the scope of the bye-laws?—Yes. 5094. That, I suppose, would require legislation?— I think tha/t requires legislation; but that is a matter that the Commission might look at, and see the state- ment of the case that I have referred to. 5095. You can give us the reference to that case?— Yes. 5096. Your experience ha® taken you, as you have told us more that once, all over London in these mat- ters ?—Yes. 5097. And this question of turning people intoi the street is one that arises very commonly, does it not, in practice? It arises in reference to what Mr. Val- lance has referred to, these great housing schemes where areas are cleared, because you do not, as a matter of fact, have the re-housing accommodation ready when the people are turned out ?—That is so. 5098. It is also so in the other schemes under private Acts of Parliament ?—That is so. 5099. For instance, it was the case to some extent in the great Holborn to Strand improvement?—Yes. 5100. Therefore this question of re-housing and having a re-housing scheme rightly comes into opera- tion at once in Stepney; it is only part of a larger problem ?—Quite so. 5101. It is a difficulty which, occurs in various directions in various parts of London?—Yes; fre- quently. 5102. As a matter of fact, the housing accommoda- tion that is provided under schemes we know, as a general rule, does provide for a class somewhat dif- ferent to those which are really turned out, and that they go elsewhere ?—Yes; that is so. 5103. The difficulty in Stepney is one of degree, and not of kind?—Yes, that is so. 5104. As a matter of fact, do you know, and has yoUx% experience led you to observe, any particular form of disease which these alien immigrants introducer- No ; I have not had experience enough of them from that side of the question to discuss that; but I have not come myself in contact with any disease that they have specially introduced. We have had very little typhus in London lately, but that is the disease I should bear in mind in connection with them, because there is often typhus in Russia, and I believe in the past people from that part of the world have brought typhus into this country; but I have had no experience of that, and I have watched every case of typhus that has occurred during a number of years in London. 5105. (Chairman.) Am I right in construing your evidence to be that, apart from the over-population of Stepney which produces the overcrowding, you do not treat this immigration of aliens as introducing any evil into the country?—That is so, my Lord. 5106. So far as your opinion goes, we (have to deal with it then as overcrowding in one particular area ?— Yes, overcrowding in one particular area, but this is not the only area in London that is overcrowded. 5107. From, alien immigration ?—Yes, without alien immigration. 5108. From alien immigration you see no evil what- ever except what I have mentioned—overcrowding in one area?—That is so. 5109. And, therefore, if you can remove that evil you would not take any steps to prevent alien immigra- tion?—That is so, my Lord. 5110. Of course you admit—at least I understand that it is so—that in Stepney there is now an overcrowding which ought to be dealt with, if possible?—Yes, I fo?J sure of that. 5111. You have two remedies only now—under the Public Health Act of 1891 a criminal procedure and the making of bye-laws under the same Act to be enforced—'that is so, is it not?—Yes, that is so. 5112. I do not know of any others. As regards the bye-laws they, so far as I know, apply only to the re- gistered lodging houses?—Yes, that is so. 5113. And do not apply to the occupation of one tenement by one family?—That is so. 5114. Would you see any advantage in extending the bye-law so as to make it apply to houses occupied by one family in certain localities ?—Yes, I think there would be an advantage in that. I found many houses in Bethnal Green some years ago, when there making an inquiry for the purposes of the Home Office, occupied in a way that I should have wished very much to have put them under regulation, but it could not be done, because they were occupied only by members of one family. They were small houses. But I think there would be an advantage in being able even to deal with houses of that sort, but then I do think that the neces- sity for it would have to be shown before the bye-Laws were made to apply. 5115. I do not think you are using the right terms. Your difficulty existed not on account of the size of the house, but on account of the fact that it was not a lodging house?—Yes, quite so. 5116. Do you think you could extend your bye-laws to houses other than lodging-houses ? Do you think the gentlemen in Belgrave Square would like to have inspection ?—'No, as I say, I think it might be necessary to show that there was a necessity in a particular case. For instance, take a house that is not let in lodgings,MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 173 and overcrowding is found in it. I think if overcrowd- ing is found in a house that should justify the putting of that house under stricter law than a house under ordinary circumstances. 5117. Any law must either be general, applying to the whole of the metropolis, or you might have—I do not .know whether you could have—a prescribed area in consequence of overcrowding, and you would exercise particular powers with regard to that area ?—Yes. 5118. Have you considered whether anything could be done in the way of legislation to> carry out what, 1 think, Mr. Norman asked you about, namely, that when an order is made that a house shall be closed, that is no longer to hold the people living in it, that the autho- rity should be made liable to provide in some way or other—we can consider in what way—some tenement to receive the persons evicted ? There is a duty in one sense to receive them in the Union workhouse. I am asking you as a substitute for that receptacle whether something could not be done to say to the local autho- rity : "You have taken proceedings, you have caused these people to be turned out, and now you must see that they do not die in the street." If you have not considered the matter, you will say so?—I have not ^considered it, my Lord. That is a very large question, •and not one I should like to assent to. 5119. Your answer that by natural gravitation they go somewhere raises a very large question, too?—Yes, it does. I quite see that. But tha.t would mean prac- tically to impose on the public the necessity for pro- viding for the overcrowded population of London, which would be one I should hesitate to assent to with- out more thought. 5120. T'he State has certain obligations cast on it, and people begin to think one of the obligations is to see that people are properly housed. You, of course, have had no experience yet in Stepney of the new bye- laws, and I understand they are only proposed new bye-laws?—Yes, I understand they are not confirmed yet. 5121. Have you (gone through them 1—No, I have only seen those relating to the occupation of houses. 5122. You have nothing particular to suggest as to how the old bye-laws could be improved, or in what direction you could improve them?—No, I have not studied them with sufficient care at the present moment to be able to speak to that. 5123. One question as to the landing of foreigners here. You Lave spoken of providing some habitation, for those foreigners who are spending a short time here, and then, supposed, to pass on to America or elsewhere! Can you make any suggestion as to any regulations or law affecting foreigners coming here and their disposal, when they arrive to remain and not pass on so as to prevent them getting into the congested district?— There was an order made by the Local Government Board, which came into force during the time cholera was prevalent in Hamburg. The order provided for persons coming over in ships where cholera had occurred, and that these persons should give their name© and addresses, and satisfy the medical officer of health of the port that they were going to these destinations. Dur- ing this time a large number of aliens were coming over, and it was looked upon as a matter of soime risk that people were arriving in this way, and getting lost in the London population. There was included in the order, issued at that time, all persons—I forget the exact expression, but they were persons who were called filthy or some expression of that sort was used, people of dirty haibits and neglected—had to satisfy the medical officer of health of the port of their arrival, before they were allowed to proceed to their place of destination, and in that way some numbers of^ them were detained, and as the expense of them mostly fell on the captains of the vessels bringing them over, they were taken back to Hamburg. 5124. I am not dealing with that case; I am dealing with the case of aliens who arrive here, and there is no objection to their coming. I ask you whether you think any regulation or law could be made to prevent them going to an overcrowded district, and to say that they must go to a district that is not overcrowded ?—I do not think so. If they have a fixed address to go to, I do not see how they are to be controlled, but if they have not got a &xed address, and that would be the way with the people wl.o are passing through, then it might be done. 5125. I am. not speaking of persons passing through ; Dr. S. J?\ I want to deal with the people who are going to re- Mw.p}iy. main here, which is the evil we are dealing with. You T—— have nothing to suggest with regard to that?—Except 9 June 3,902. they might be called upon to give their names and —~~ addresses, and then, the officer might go to their ad- dresses and see how they are circumstanced. 5126. We are anxious to see whether we can relieve this district of Stepney, within which, according to you, part of the evil is located. Is there anything to be done to prevent theln going to the place where the evil arises ? I gather you say no ?—I think if the sanitary law was enforced, that would prevent some from going there, but I think it can only be brought about in that way. I cannot suggest any other method by which the thing could be dealt with. 5127. Suppose it was said that a house contained the proper number to exist in the two-tenement houses— four persons, or whatever it may be—and that any other would exceed the fixed number, and that would con- stitute an offence, do you think that would at all stop people going ?—That would be the effect of the bye-law. 5128. In one sense, but that is as regards overcrowd- ing generally. A man may permit persons to come and live beyond a certain number, without questioning whether it is overcrowding or not—making an arbi- trary fixing of the number?—I do not see how it can be enforced. 5129. But you are going to increase the number of your inspectors very much?—A substantial increase would be wanted. My own impression is that this is really a much less difficult problem than it gets the credit for being, because I believe, when once they go to work, and you have a certain number of prosecutions, the population would begin to see what is being meant. 5130. You are giving valuable assistance to the Com- mission, if you can convince them it is not a difficult problem to deal with?—I think it is a difficult problem, but I believe it is a less difficult problem than has been suggested. 5131. Now, as to holding persons suffering from disease. Now, on the approach of the vessel, when the medical authority learns that there is any contagious or infectious disease, the person suffering from that disease can be removed to a hospital, and detained till the evil is over, I understand ?—Yes, my Lord. 5132. So that if it be a case of bubonic plague or cholera, or a disease of that kind, the person is stopped ? —That is so. 5133. That would apply to English born subjects?— Yes. arriving in the port. 5134. Not only to English born subjects or to alien immigrants, but to the ordinary arrivals from America or anywhere else?—Yes; there is no distinction. 5135. You would not draw any distinction between the alien immigration coming from the localities we have spoken of, or between the ordinary foreign or English born subject arriving at our port?—I should take that view, unless some special circumstances arose that one has not got in one's mind now. 5136. Have you had any instance of disease being disseminated here from the alien immigrants more than from aaiy other portion of the persons arriving?— No ; but I should not probably be the officer in London who would know most about that. I do know about typhus, which is the disease that might be thought of in association with these people, and I can say with regard to that, that has not manifested itself at all. There is one question you asked me, as to whether the law can be strengthened in any way. It occurred to me, I might mention, that if an authority, say, like the London County Council, had concurrent powers, instead of only power of acting in default, then they might be more easily used powers than those that already exist. 5137. It is very awkward, if they should want to fire two barrels at the same man .at the same time ?— I am not suggesting that. The first duty of enforce- ment would be on the Borough Council, but it should not be necessary to prove default to the satisfaction, of a Government department, and so on. _ 5138. When would you let the second body, the County Council, proceed ?—I should say when the cen- " •tral Metropolitan authority satisfied itself that the ether was not going to proceed. J174 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr. S. F. Murphy. f June 1902 5139. That is default in the opinion of the central authority?—Yes, that would be so. 5140. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There is an analogous pro- ceeding to that under the Factory Acts?—Yes, and under the Housing Act, too. 5141. (Chairman.) Who is the central authority, there ?—The Home Office. Under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, the position is very much what I Lave stated. A representation with regard to an un- healthy house, if communicated by the London County Council to the Borough Council, has to be acted upon by them. 5142. (Mr. Norman.) You told us just now that you would attach very great weight to anything said by Dr. Loane, because of his knowledge of the locality, and because of his experience ?—Yes. 5143. Did you hear his evidence?—No. 5144. Of course, you have had no opportunity of reading it?—No. 5145. Allow me to read to you Question 4664, which was put to him by Major Evans-Gordon, and his reply. " Supposing you had all those things to morrow—in- creased number of inspectors, and so on, and very much more active administration of the law generally, have you any suggestions to make as to what is to become of these unfortunate people you are going to turn out?—(A.) No; I think you must provide for them outside the metropolitan area." Dr. Loane, so far as that question and answer goes, does not appear to share your view as to this housing question. Then there is another question I should like to put to you —4681—a, question by the Chairman: " I want to know whether these suggestions of transplanting these people, and hunting them up by an army of inspectors, and driving them away, is a practical one as opposed to stopping this thing, which you admit is a grave pro- blem, at its source, or, at all events, checking it at its source. Would you regard that as a solution?— (A.) I:do not think I can, because the natural increase is so great, and the district remains stationary as regards area, that even'supposing you cut off further immigration, in the course of time you will still go on getting your increased overcrowding." Then again, at 4689: "Now I want to call your attention to these figures, because that seems to me to be a very, very serious thing—a constant increase of inflow compli- cating, and as I think, rendering almost insoluble the problem with which we have to deal?—(A.) Certainly ; I think so, too." Therefore you do not agree with Dr. Loane in that ?—No, I do not; but I am speaking of Dr. Loane's knowledge of the local condi- tions. These are not statements as to local conditiotns. 5146. We have it on record that Dr. Loane, whose authority you have so great a respect for, also does not agree with you in your suggestions as to the solu- tion?—No ; I do not know that. I should like to ask Dr. Loane. 5147. So far as that goes?—So far as that goes. He appears to be more dissatisfied with the enforcement of the regulations than I should be. . 5148. But he does not consider that enforcement to be a solution, and you do; that is the difference 7 I have said it would be a solution in great part. 5149. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There was one answer you gave to Mr. Norman I should like to ask you about. You said that the strict enforcement or im- proved enforcement of the sanitary laws in this country would act as a deterrent upon foreigners coming here. You suggested that it would become known both here and abroad that they were to be hunted up in that way, and that the existence of that condition would deter them from coming?—I do not know about the forces on the other side, and I should think it would have an influence upon them in coming to a particular district. 5150. You said it would have a deterrent effect, and that that would be one way, indeed, of keeping them out?—I have not said it would; I have said it might have that effect. 5151. If that is the case, would you think that other legislation, if enforced—such a legislation as we hear of in America—would be desirable? Do you know what the American law is with regard to immigration ? —'I have heard of it; but I do not know of it in detail. 5152. It is a law by which they are closely examined medically, and they have to be people of a certain character, and they must not be criminal or suffering from loathsome diseases, and not persons likely to become a public charge. Those are broadly the con- ditions. We have been told over and over again that those laws have not had the effect that it was looked for that they would have in America. They have filters on that side of the Atlantic, and they do not succeed in keeping out the people they desire to keep out. What I want to know is, if we had a law of that kind in this country, do you think that would act as a deterrent?—If it has failed in America, I should think it would not act here. 5153. Then that would rather affect your conclusion with regard to the effect of sanitary laws, which would b-3 a much weaker thing?—I think that is so. I have not attached any great importance to it, but I sug- gest it slight have that effect. 5154. But, under the circumstances I have described you do not think it would ?—I should question whether it would. 5155. (Chairmcm.) You have been asked; as to whether you agree with Dr. Loane. I see Mr. Val- lanoe put this question to him : " Supposing you had been able to register in Whitechapel all your tenement houses, and you had a sufficient staff of inspectors to enforce inspection and registration, what would have been the result ?■—(A.) I think very few complaints could have been made against the district under these happy circumstances. (Q.) Do you mean that overcrowding would be practically non-existent?—(A.) Yes, practic- ally, you would have all the houses requiring constant super vision to be upon the register, and then, with a staff of inspectors to regularly inspect those houses, you would have control of them." Do you agree with that ?—I quite agree with that. (Chairman) The Commissioners desire to thank you for the evidence you have given before them. THIRTEENTH DAI Thursday, 1 '2th June 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Lord Eothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttleton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. Mr. Alfred Walmer, called; and Examined. A. Walmer. - • 5156. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You live at 7, Lydia 5158. That makes you 73 years of age ?—Yes. 12 June 1902. Street, Stepney ? Yes. 5159. What is your nationality?—I am a Dane by ; 5157. When were you born?-—I was born* cm. the 13th birth. I came to England, or rather Grangemouth, in August. .1828. Scotland, at the age of 14.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 175 5160. How long have you been in this country P—I have been here,"off and on, always. Since 1863 I have constantly, resided here. I always lived in the East wfeen a< young man. 5161. 3k the East End of London ?—-Yes. 5162. How long have you been continuously living in the; East End?—Since 1&63.: 5163. What employment have you had since you have been in this couht^P joined the Metropolitan Police in 1865 or i864,. and went through the Hyde Park riots. : 5164. How lofi^g wer© you in the police?—I was in the police one year and ,one month, and I left because I got J^e^^r,sitiiatioin. . 5165.; What did you. get then ?-—I had only 18s, a week in; t&e Metropolitan, Police in those .'days,, and I received about £6 va week afterwards. 5166. In what ?—-I do not care to go into, it-—social, political, and commercial. 5167. Were you not in the Brighton and South Coast Railway Company ?—I joined the Brighton and South C6Jast Railway Company as a detective officer in 1873. v 5168,. You were there nearly 18 years ?—Yes—17 years arid 11 months. 5169. You have lived altogether in the East End about 40 years ?—Always in the East End—Whitechapel, Wapping, St. George's-m-the-East, Stepney, and Mile End. '* ;; 5170. You therefore have been conscious of the influx of the aliens from .abroad—-you have come in contact with thpt ?—-T have' watched this nearly all my life. - 5171. You.live in Lydia Street?—No. 7, Lydia Street. 5172. We have had some evidence about Lydia Street already. I believe there has been some mistake as to the figures. Can you give us the exact figures ?—Yes, I Will. About ten years ago not a single foreigner was living there.: About nine years ago a Jew resided at No. 2. I will give you the numbers of the street. $&y-,l is [occupied, by English, No. 2 by Jews,, r.r.Q ■ 5173;; Do you mean foreigners by that ?—I will, with your permission, explain that the influx of aliens in the East End is entirely composed of members of the Jewish race, jWith: a very few exceptions. Now in No. 3 there are Jews; Nb. 4 has a1 Jewish landlord-—I mean the householder is a Jew—the; .tenants are English; No. 5 all Jew§)^Mov, 6/.allv pnglish ,'No. 7, your humble servant; No, 8 all Jews; No. 9 English; No. 10, a Jewish land- lord and English /tenant; No. 11 English; No. 12, -Jewish landlord, English tenant; Nos. 13 and 14 Eng- lish; No, 15 is at present empty, but was occupied formerly by members of the Jewish race; No. 16, a Jewish landlord and English tenant; No. 17 is also ^ptyr>at|ip^e33t; No. 18 English; Nos. 19, 20, and ^rall^ Jews;. j^p. 23 English, and No. 24 Jews who only recently came, three Sundays ago, with six vanloads*. How EPLany ther,e. are in the house I could not tell you. I have ppunted 12 men, besides women, but to get at the number is impossible fpr me. Frpm Np. 24 tp No. 37 are wholly and solely occupied by Englishmen. The lan41 gradually displace the English population, and re- place them with their co-religionists. 5196. Is that accompanied by rising rents?—Of course it is, undoubtedly. In these houses it is almost impossible to raise the rents. Still, it has risen 6d. more; but those rooms are in such a state that, as I have already described, you cannot stand there with a hat unless you destroy the ceiling or the hat. 5197. You say the tendency is when these people acquire house property to put their own people into it?—It undoubtedly is, because we have positive un- deniable proof that the English population is displaced by aliens. 5198. What about Cadiz Street, in White Horse Lane? There are some figures which have been given us for that. Perhaps you can correct them, if they are wrong?—-The right hand side up to No. 40, which is the corner of Ocean Street, was bought by a Mr. Cat- ling, who re-sold them to a man named Joseph London. The first landlord, Mr. Catling, raised the rent from 9s. to 16s., a 7s. increase. I may mention it is also a slum street. 5199. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Whereabouts is that?— That is next to Shandy Street, leading into White Horse Lane. The present landlord has not raised the rent because it is very obvious that beyond 16s. it would be almost impossible to raise any more rent in these slum houses. 5200. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is that street being in- vaded now by foreigners?—Yes, there are a large number of Jews there, and formerly there was not a single Jew living there. I may say the same of Ernest Street, which is at the top of White Horse Lane. 5201. That is another turning out of White Horse Lane?—There are about 140 houses there. There the rent is raised from 9s. to 15s., and it is constantly invaded by foreign aliens. 5202. (Mr. Vallance.) Within what period is that? —Say within the last 10 years. 5203. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But when did the rent go up ?—In the last few years. 5204. There was an agitation, I remember, some three or .four years ago about the raising of rents. At that time did the houses change hands, do you know?—I could not say as a positive fact. 5205. Anyhow, rents have gone up enormously in that street ?—Yes, from 9s. to 15s. I may mention another street, Greenfield Street. Some years ago, in my work as a detective officer I brought a witness 'there, and at that time, speaking of a good many years ago, some- where about 1865 or 1866, the whole of the street was then occupied by English, and I have yet to learn that there is an Englishman left. 5206. Greenfield Street is in Whiteehapel ?—Yes. 5207. There is a consequent constant displacement ©f the English population going on in all these streets you have mentioned ?—In every street in the whole of the East-end. 52U8. Cadiz Street and White Honse Lane and Lydia Street, of course, from the eastern side of the Stepney Division?—Yes. 5209. That shows the pressure eastwards of the influx from abroad ?—Yes. 5210. That is a comparatively new feature ?—Yes. 5211. Now you are constantly among these people? —I live among them. 5212. What is your opinion with regard to the feeling on this question ?—I can only repeat what I have just paid—the feeling is so intense that if a powerful leader was to come forward it might have very serious conse- quences. It only remains for somebody to spring up. You may go into a public-house—I may say I am not a frequenter of public-houses—but you may go where you like in any street, and go among the people, and you will hear expressions which are anything but Parlia- mentary. * 5213. Do you think the people are likely to become violent, and that the feeling is rising rapidly on the subject?—If this influx of aliens is not stopped I am afraid, looking into the future, something very serious will 'happen, because Englishmen are rather tenacious and bulldog like, and when they once fasten their teeth it will take a crowbar to loose them. 5214. We have been told of trouble in the Wapping district of St. George's-in-the-East. Do you know any- thing about that ?—Yes. In Anthony Street there was a very serious row. A vanload that came there im- porting aliens was wrecked, and the house was practi- cally wrecked also, and they had to run for their very lives. 5215. How long ago is that?—It is now about two- months ago, or it may be a week more. I am not certain about the time. 5216. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where is Anthony Street ? —In St. George's. 5217. Near the docks ?—Yes. 5218. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is in the dock district where they have shown strong feeling against these people coming in. Now, I see you have noted something about Walthamstow. Was there any trouble there?—Yes. About a month or five weeks ago in a street leading off James. Street, a quarrel took place between a Jewish painter 'and an English painter, and the people gathered round, and they wrecked the house, and they pulled even the stove out of the house, and they intended to burn it. 5219. Do you say there are signs of the influx spread- ing to Walthamstow ?—It is undoubtedly so, because we know as a fact they are also going there. 5220. Would your view be if these people were more widely distributed in different directions through- out the East End (that has been put forward as a solu- tion of the difficulty) that that would give rise to feeling in other parts of London as well ?—-Do I gather from you that the English people should be transplanted ? 5221. No, the English people are being transplanted already; but I mean the foreign people from the over- crowded districts?—It would be the same. Assuming they were transplanted into the suburbs it would only create the same feeling >and the same state of things that exists at present in the East End, and assuming, if I may be allowed to, that the English were supposed to go there, you know very well that the population which lives in the East End—dockers, and so forth—cannot be transplanted to Belgravia and Eaton Square, or even Chelsea Embankment; but you must naturally put ihem in a working-class locality. Where is room to be found, and why are they to be driven from the home of their birth and their surroundings to make room for aliens ? 5222. Driving the dock population from their neigh- bourhood you would say was a great hardship ?—Yes. I will describe that, having worked in the docks myself many years ago before I joined the Metropolitan Police. There are two classes of men. I will explain that minutely, if I may. There are the A men, who are perre anentlv at work, and the B men that go to the docks in the morning, and who go every haJf- hour to see if they are called up, till about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. If these men are driven away to the suburbs, how would they be able first to come up to London and stand all day waiting for a job, and then return to their homes, perhaps penniless? It would be simply unreasonable, unjust, and inhuman. 5223. That is being brought about by the influx of these people driving the native population away ?—Yes, and this gives ris^ in consequence to over-crowding. 5224. Now, you say the feeling amongst the workers in the East End Walmcr. the landlord is a Mr. Cohen. It was a six-roomed ^ house, and each room is occupied by a family. There 12 June 1902. ;s another place, Fieldgate Street, and I have been in- formed- 5255. Is this a thing you know yourself ?—No, I have only been informed of this. 5256. We will get that from people who know?—For myself, I came into a house in my experience as a detective officer on the Brighton Railway in Petticoat Lane, which is now pulled down, and I came in the evening to make my inquiry and I found a girl of about 24 getting out of bed with nothing on her but her shift. She took no notice of me at all. 5257. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How long ago was that?— About 1878 or 1879. : 5258. Was Petticoat Lane inhabited by Jews at that time ?—Yes, mostly at that time. In fact, to show the influx-- 5259. (Major Evans-Gorclon.) We need not go into that ?-—I can show you in my 40 years that I watched Spitalfields, street after street, which was formerly occu- pied by English, and it is now a second Palestine. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We have had that over and over again. 5260. (Lord Rothschild.) I only want to ask you one question. I think you said that there was a feeling against Jews manifested in public-houses. I may have been wrong. Was not that the statement you made?— Yes, when you go into a public-house and the conversa- tion turns upon this subject, you find that there is a general opinion or a general feeling against them. 5261. That, I suppose, could be accounted for because the majority of Jews do not go into a public-house P— I admit the Jews are a sober race. 5262. (Mr. Vallance.) You said that the property was being increasingly bought up by these foreigners in t your district ?—Yes. 5263. And that the property was being bought up with an ob j ect ?—Yes. 5264. That object being to displace by every possible means the English population by an alien population ; but did you not enumerate a good many instances in -the case of Lydia Street, where the owner was an alien foreigner and the whole of the tenants of the house English?—Yes, the tenants are English. They were living there at the time when the houses were bought, but it will be only a question of time, because it is a gradual process, and all these English tenants will have to go and make room for the aliens. 5265. At all events, for the moment there are a good many houses in the case of Lydia Street that are owned by foreigners and tenanted by English ?—No. That is a slight misuiiderstandinig on your part. The whole of the street, from No. 1 to 24, is owned by a man called Rosenthal, of No. 9, Beaumont Street, Stepney Green. The previous landlord was Mr. Cohen, of No, 2, Beaumont 'Street, and he did not raise the rent, but my present landlord, Mr. Rosenthal, has risen my rent from 10s. to 13s. 5266. Ha>s the increase of rent been occasioned in any measure by the local authority allowing the over- crowding to the extent to which it is carried on now ?— That comes back to the sanitary inspectors. 5267. May I put my question in another way ? Two families are applying for the tenancy of a certain house or tenement, and the man with one family is only able, oust of his own earnings, to pay a certain rent, and it is only by means of illegal occupation—by means of illegal overcrowding—that these augmented rents are possible?—The rent is raised by the landlord in the first instance. Of course, the occupier of the house, being a working man, cannot possibly pay 13s. or 15s. out of his earnings, which are, say, 20s. or 25s. a week. Therefore, he is bound to re-let thp rooms at auch a price, so that he may be able to pay the rent. 5268. Supposing the local authority adopted strin- gent measures to prevent the illegal overcrowding, and supposing it to be practicable, would not the rencs automaticaly fall?—You made use of the expression " practicable." Assuming that you had an army of in- spectors, one in each street, and still allowed this in- flux to take place, it would be still the same. 5269. My point is that, assuming that was possible, would that not lead to a diminution of the rents ?—My answer is simply that it is impossible, because no candi- date would stand the slightest chance of getting a seat on the Borough or County Council who would advocate such an enormous increase of sanitary inspectors, which un- doubtedly would have to take place. 5270. You spoke of the considerable public feeling being aroused in the district by the immigration of these aliens. I take it from your statement that it is not an anti-semitic feeling ?—No. 5271. There is an intelligent objection to the popula- tion being ousted from a district, and being replaced by the foreigners ?—Yes. 5272. If the objection is an intelligent one, what is the general feeling as to the direction in which we should seek a remedy. Is there a feeling that alien immigra- tion should be entirely stopped?—To the more intelli- gent class of the working class there would be no objec- tion for aliens to arrive in England who were desirables, or who had some means or another ; but that class which at present invades England, of course, displaces the native population. 5273. Has the immigration of these foreigners led to the creation in London of a. large unemployed English class?—Undoubtedly it has. 5274. Is there a large unemployed English class of workmen now?—There is unfortunately, and anyone can verify it by going to a dock wharf or to factory gates any morning at eight o'clock, when you can see hundreds and hundreds of Englishmen waiting for an hour's work. 5275. Have those Englishmen been displaced by this particular immigration?—A large number. 5276. That is, that the foreigner has taken up the identical work that the Englishman was doing ?—Not in the docks. There are very few Jews employed in the docks, but those men could obtain work otherwise at other places ; if this influx of aliens had not taken place, there would be other work for them. They need not devote the whole of their time at the dock wharf or the factory gate. You fin®1 Jewish painters, who never had a brush in their hands. 5277. You will admit, I suppose, that a very con- siderable portion of the aliens who come into- this country introduce new industries, do not they There is an industry in goods, for instance, say in the tailor- ing trade—it is cheap and shoddy, and I think, with all due respect to you, Ave could very well dispense with it, because we never had it before. Their goods are cer- tainly cheap. 5278. Cheap and shoddy goods?—Yes, but they are no use. 5279. Are not they goods for which there is a demand ? ■—There is undoubtedly now. 5280. Would not there be a probability of these same goods being imported from abroad ?—I am not prepared exactly to go into the trade matters, but we never had it before. I am speaking from experience and age, having been here all my lifetime. We could do without them, and did dp without them. 5281. Foreign nations might say the same ?—Yes, but here is what I, having travelled all over the world, am pointing out to you, namely, that I have seen both in Paris, Berlin, and other places, as well as in India, Burmah, America, and Africa, where I have travelled in my time, English colonies—in every capital in Europe almost—but Englishmen never oust the natives of their country. They never bought up property to such an extent as to drive the native-born population from their rightful soil. 5282. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do any of these people you speak of as waiting at the dock gates come from the country. Has not there been an immigration from the country as well as alien immigration?—Yes, unfortu- nately there has. 5283. To a very considerable extent?—Yes, to a cer- tain extent. 5284. We know the country districts (have become very much depopulated, and the population has mi- grated to the town ?—Yes. 5285. That is to be found, in other places, amongst these casual labourers applying for employ- ment at the docks?—It has had, no doubt, a certain effect, but the real fact is that the English population is displaced solely and wholly by the influx of un- desirable aliens. Adjourned for a short time.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 179 Mr. George Augustus Dix, called ; and Examined Mr. • G. A. Dix. 5286. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you a house and in- surance agent ?-~Yes. 5&87. You were born in the East End ?—Yes. 5288. And you have lived all your life in Stepney? —Yes. 5289. What is your feeling about this question of alien immigration ?—My feeling is that it is disgust- ing that it should be allowed; I do not see why we should be swamped by these aliens. That is the general feeling of the few Christians who are now left in the East End of London. 5290. Do you say that iin your experience the district has been deteriorated ?—'Most decidedly ; there is no doubt about it., Every day you will see a Christian going away or driven away, I might say ; and you will see an alien taking his place. It does not matter whether it is a private house or a shop in any street or road within, we will say, a radius of three or four miles from where we are located. (Major Evans-Gordon.) My Lord, with regard to over- crowding, does the Commission wish to have any more evidence, because we can go on giving instance after in- stance ? (Chairman.) Not in detail. If we can get round figures, they will speak for themselves—so many more inhabitants, so many houses, in relation to the increase of inhabitants, which necesitate overcrowding. If you have an instance or two of extreme evil—that is to say, matters of bad health or disease, or anything of that kind, you can give it. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We have so much detail that I wish to save the time of the Commission ; we can go on givinghouse after house and street after street. (Chairman.) The details will not help us ; we want the result. 5291. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We had better depend on the sanitary officers for that. (To the Witness.) Generally speaking, you can give, if it is wished, a great number of cases, as I see from your notes, of gross over- crowding ?—A large number of them. 5292. Add you say that the result generally is that the neighbourhood must be overcrowded ?—It is to a very large extent; there is not the slightest doubt of that: . 5293. And the consequence is that you, as house agent, come .across overcrowding constantly ?—I do, certainly. Of course, I am continually in the neighbourhood of the various streets, and I see it; and no one more so. 5S9£. Whole streets formerly occupied, in your memory, by English people are now practically entirely in the possession of foreign people ?—Scores of them. 5295. And is there, as a consequence, ill-feeling arising from displacement, and so forth?—Yes, cer- tainly, and from loss of trade. 5296. The loss of 'trade is the natural consequence of that ?—Yes. 5297. The English shopkeepers lose their customers by being replaced by aliens ?—Yes. In the Commercial Road East every week or two you will see a Christian go away and an alien take his place. 5298. That is in the shopkeeping class ?—Yes; and nearly all the shops round about there now are occupied by aliens, that were formerly occupied by Christians; and this last year or two it has been worse than ever. 5299. This has been accompanied again by another evil, which. is a great rise of rents ?—Yes, enormous. 5300. And that you have come across personally, being a house agent?—Yes, from 10s. to 17s., and 18s., and from lis. and 12s. to 19s., and £1 and 22s. I have any amount of evidence here to prove what I have said. 5301. I .think we have gone into this pretty closely already. You can go on and state a great number of in- stances of rents being raised ?—•'Yes. The consequence is that our folks have to be crowded into one room where they bad before three, because they cannot afford to pay the rent, and they cannot afford to go away, otherwise they lose their employment. So, they simply crowd in, and they have to live under the condi* tions that these aliens live under in many oases. 6144 5302. An important point with regard; to this liigh jwne i'artg! rent is that the landlord may charge a reasonable rent, - give us instances of that ?—You have got an instance in but it is sublet at a very much higher rent; can you your notes of Bunk Street?—That is just off White - chapel; that- is a case of assessment. 5303. Will you just explain that?—This is a case where the assessment is upon a rent of 15s., and the man is paying 27s. The consequence is that that alien landlord is taking a mean advantage of English land- lords who give a proper return; and of course that occurs in scores of cases. 5304. You mean to say that the house is assessed at 15s., but the real rent is 27s. ?—That is right. 5305. (Chairman.) And what happens then?—'My Lord, the consequence is, I will say, that I am paying rates to the extent of £12 a year on this house, while this other one, by giving a false return, pays but £6. The consequence is that that man is making £6 more a year out of that house than I am making. 5306. All I gather is, that if a man makes a false re- turn he does not pay the proper rates, and honest men have to make up the difference ?—Yes. A great number of these men have no conscience whatever. 5307. That observation would apply to a great many of the community?—Yes ; but especially to aliens. 5308. (Major Evans-Gordon.) This i® a common thing?—Yes, there is no doubt about it. Supposing the clerk to the Assessment Committee, or one of his deputies, goes round and says to one of these aliens, what rent are you paying ? He' will say 15s. That man knows very well that if he states that he is paying 27s. the landlord will turn him out probably, for giving a proper return. He is only too anxious to remain in the house, and therefore he tells a lie. 5309. What would be the cure for that, an inspec- tion of the rate books?—I do not think there is a cure for it myself, because so long as these people are there you never can get them to tell the truth, because if they tell the truth they will probably get cleared out of the house; and, therefore, in order to stop in the house, which is so valuable to them that they will pay £10 or £11 for the key, they will tell a falsehood ; and they will do it, looking you in the face, and think nothing of it. (Chairman.) Does the compound householder exist at Stepney ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes. (Chairman.) Then the landlords pay the rates. Does compounding exist, Mr. Vallance? (Mr. Vallance.) I think the Borough Council have adopted the compounding scheme. (Witness.) Yes, they have. 5310. (Chairman.) Then, I do not follow the evidence. The landlord makes the return, does he not?—Yes, I am not denying that the landlord pays. 5311. And makes the return?—Yes, that would be so. 5312. Then, where does this matter come in?—The tenant pays a greater amount of money per week ; but the landlord, instead of giving a correct return, gives a return of so much less. 5313. The landlord knows what the rent is, and what the rating is ?—Yes, decidedly. 5314. Why does he not make a correct return?— Because it is to his advantage to give an incorrect re- turn. 5315. It is the landlord you are speaking of, not the tenant ?—Yes ; I am not. speaking of the tenant of the house. 531)6. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) You were, were you not ?—The owner of the house. (Chairman.) Let us get it clear. 5317. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your point is that the tenant does not disclose the right rent which lie pay®, because if he did he would be turned out of his house k —Yes. (Chairman.) I do not understand that. He does not disclose to his landlord the real rent he pays, because the landlord makes the return and pavs the rate, do you say?•r.:: •, 180 ROYAL COM.MISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Jf*, Cr. 4- (Major Eucins-Gordon.) No, the rate people come round, and they say, " How nxuch rent are you paying ? " and tlie tenant says " I aan paying 15s.," when he is ,Ji|ne 1902. really paying 27s. - 5318. {Chairman.) The landlord lias to pay the rates ; and do you say that the landlord and the tenant are in collusion to make a false return. Because the landlord makes the return, and he knows whether it is right or wrong?—Yes, that is so. 5519. Then you are charging both the landlord and - the tenant ?—Yes. 5320. They are. in a conspiracy to defraud the authorities ?—That is so. 5321. Are they both -aliens ?—Yes. 5322. Alien tenant and alien landlord ?—Yes. Most of the landlords in the East End of London now are aliens. - ' 5323, And most of the tenants ?—Yes. 5324: (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) Then, most of these houses are under-rated ?—Yes, in many cases no doubt. 5325. If they were properly managed and not over- crowded, there would not be a further reduction ; the rates would not lose, would they?—No, not at all, cer- tainly not. The only thing is, that they will crowd 25 people into a house in which five or six years ago there were only eight or nine. 5326.. (Major JEJvans-Gordon.) Then your point is that an injustice is inflicted upon the people who charge a reasonable rent ?—Certainly. 5327. And pay the correct rates, and do not let to aliens who overcrowd ?—Yes. 5328. t it is an injustice on those people who have house property in that position, as compared with those who do let to aliens who overcrowd and get this high rent?—Yes. 5329. Paying the same rates as the man keeping his house in a decent condition?—Yes; and that is how lots of these people have acquired so much property as they have, because they have been mere paupers when they have started, and in a few years they have got together no end of property; and there is no other way in which they could have got it, only that way. 5330. Do you go into the houses ?—I do in some cases, and a lot of them are filthy. 5331. You say their hdbiifts are bad ?■—Yes, and in many cases very immoral. I heard of a case the other day where there were six men—it occurred 17 years ago. 5332. That is rather a long time back?—Yes. There were six men, aliens, in one room, and there was a worn an lying in bed ; this woman got out of bed stark naked, and walked across the room; but they did not take any notice of her. Mr. Belcher, who was here the other day, gave evidence of a similar nature. 5333. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) lit is rather remote?—I heard of a case at Hackney Wick a little time ago. 5334. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Give us cases you know of from your own experience ?—.As regards these immoral acts, I could not say that I have seen any. I heard of a case a little while back from a man I know, a builder. The other day he was looking out of his window, and he saw one of these aliens living opposite standing in front of his window ; there were no curtains to the window, and he was stark naked ; and this man's wife and children in the house could see all he was doing. He moved out on the same night, which was a Sunday. 5335. With regard to your own neighbours, have you got neighbours who are aliens ?—Yes, there are about 17 living there, and in our house there are five Christians. In that house there are so many more to pay the same rates as we have to pay. 5336. Seventeen persons living in the house next door to you ?—Yes, or more, mostly aliens. 5337. In the same sort of house 'as you occupy with five people?—Yes. Those houses were originally occu- pied, in some cases, by retired people, which are now nearly ^ all let to these alaens, who, of course, occupy every room. And through that it comes very hard on those people who wish to live respectably, because they have large families, as you know, and they all have to be educated. Each child costs us £6 a vear to educate, and the consequence is that we are paying for the education of their children, instead of them paying for it themselves. They are not paying one- fifth of the rates we are paying, and yet they, have the same benefits from the rates as we have. There are the library, the recreation ground, and various other in- stitutions, which they use more than we do. 5338. With regard to the question of loss of business that you referred to,, can you give us specific instances of people who have lost -business ?—Yes ; there is a greengrocer that I can mention. The man was there, I suppose, for about five years, and he was a very respectable man. There was his son and wife in the business, and they were never away from their busi- ness. His trade fell off, and he had to leave. 5339. Who was this?—I do nolt care about mention- ing the name, unless you wish. 5340. (Chairman.) Why did luis trade fall off?— Only through this alien immigration, nothing y an Englishman. He had to clear out, and an alien took it. A working man was passing at the same time, a-nd there was a lot of furniture standing about; he pushed against some of it, and there was a fight over it. 5362. Is there much Socialism among these people who have arrived here?—Some time ago I attended a meeting at Cooper's Hall. 5364. When was this?—Five or six years ago; and a joiner's shop, but there were any amount of Socialists there. 5336. When was this?—Five or six years ago; and they ran our gentry down something shocking. 5365. Were these aliens you are speaking about?1— Yes. 5366. You say that among the aliens who come over here from Poland :and'. Russia Socialism Is prevalent .amongst them ?—Yes, itis. 5367. Is that-a cause of hostility to our own people? —I do not know that it is, but there is a good deal of G. A. Dixi' feeling. During this last war I have heard a lot of —— . them say they hoped we should lose it, and that we 12 June l90SH. should be beaten. — 5368. This was among the newer arrivals, I suppose? Yes. The English Jews were with us all the way through. I have a friend who is an alien, and he told me that at the street corner you would often hear them speaking and running down this country ; and very often he stops and hears what they have to say, and then lie turns round and says, "You are in here ; we did not ask you to come ; it is a pity you cannot speak well of the country." 5369. These matters are the cause of ill-feeling among* the local population, are they?—Decidedly-. 5370. Now with regard to insurance ; you are an insurance agent?—Yes. 5371. Is there any objection on the part of insurance companies to take these people? We have had some evidence of that?—There is a very great objection; I have tried dozens of times, and have had most of thein refused; and I have some evidence here to prove it, if you wish to see it. 5372. {Mr. Alfred Lyttleton.) Fire insurance, do you mean ?—Yes. 5373. Not life insurance ?—No ; they will accept them for life assurance, because as a rule they are a very hardy race. They have a large number of fires. 5374. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say that there is a decided objection on the part of insurance companies to accept these people as fire risks, do you?—Yes; so much so that I have given up trying to get them insured, because it is only a waste of time and money. 5375. (Chairman.) What is the ground of objection? Is it that they absolutely commit arson, or that they are careless ?—It is both, my Lord. 5376. (Major Evoms-Gordon.) For both reasons?— Yes, and the fact of their being aliens ; the insurance companies know what they are, and directly they see it is an alien's name they refuse the insurance. They write back to say, " We regret this is not a class of in- surance we care to accept" ; and another will write and say, We do not accept foreign Jews." I can always- get English Jews insured without any trouble. 5377. You have got cases that you can refer to upon this point, if necessary?—Yes. 5378. Do you know anything about the agencies which deal with these people when they come here?—I know there are two agencies in the Commercial Road; and the other day I saw six 'bus-loads of these people coming up, pair-horse 'bus-loads; and I saw three big vanloads of their baggage, and I believe they were landed at this agency. I was passing there an hour or so after- wards, and I saw some of them filing out. 5379. Is that the place which takes them in when they come here ?—Yes ; they go to the other place in Leman Street too, the Jewish Home. I was passing there this morning, and I saw two of them trying to get admis- sion, but they would not let them in; thev kept knock- ing and banging at the door, and the man in charge kept trying to send them away. There were a lot coming up to-day, I was told. 5380. They arrive every day in the week almost?—- Yes. (Major Evans-Gordon.) My Lord, I have got some evidence here with regard to police cases; but perhaps we had better defer that and get it from the magis- trates. (Chairman.) If you please. (Witness.) I have a number of cases here. We are told in the papers that these people, are such a law- abiding race, and never do anything wrong, but I have here a number of cases which will prove to the contrary. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We can get these from the magistrates. (Witness.) As regards loss of trade, I was talking to a man yesterday who used to sell about 18 tons of coal per week in the winter time. His trade has now dropped to 6 or 7 tons ; he has been there 25 years ; and that is all within the last five or six years. He has barrows outside his place on a Sunday morning selling vegetables.182 ROYAL COMMISSION OX ALIEN IMMIGRATION : *v.. l%Jpiae;J®02, 5381. (Chairman.) Selling against him, you mean1?— Yes, selling against him. What chance has that man got ? 5382. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Are they alien costers? Yes. That man has to pay rates and taxes, and the aliens live in one room. Then there is Watney Street. Nearly the whole of the street is taken up by these aliens, where our own people formerly lived, and a large number of the shops the aliens have now. 5383. Is that in St. George's?—Yes. They have got a. Russian in Lower Chapman Street. That poor fellow works there from half-past 5 in the morning to 10 and 11 o'clock at night, most of the time sawing up wood, and he works seven days a week. That is near Mr. Belcher's place. Speaking about key money, to give you an idea of what love there is between them ; I know a case where some time ago a woman went to her landlord and said, " I am going to leave my house; would you mind accept- ing Mrs. So and So F " who, of course, was an alien. He said,. "No; you aliens knock the place about so that really I would rather not do so." After some persuasion (they are very persuasive, as you know) they accepted this tenant. The tenant proved to be a very respect- able woman, and she was there for some time. The other people took a shop in Chrisp Street, Poplar, and they lost their money. They are nearly all Christians there, and I suppose they would not deal with them. After they lost their money in that shop they left. They tried in vain to get a house in two or three streets close to where they lived before, and finally came back to this same landlord, and actually asked him to turn this other tenant out who had given them £5 fcr the key. 5384. Did they offer key money themselves ?—No, they did not offer key money themselves; they had had key money off this tenant whom they brought in, but did not tell the landlord anything at all about that. 5385. With regard to this evil you have seen growing since you have been down there all these years, do you see any remedy for it other than checking the inflow ?— I do not think there is any other remedy whatever. 5386. Do you believe that the improved administra- tion of the .sanitary law would have any effect?—'It would mean an enormous amount of money, and I do not know who is going to pay it. The rates and taxes are going up something enormously now, and to clear the people out who do not live in a respectable way, and then to have to bear the burden of them, would really distress very much the few English inhabitants who are left. 5387. To clear these people out would mean the dis- turbance of an enormous number of people?—Of course it would. 5388. That would lead to an increased demand for houses all over the neighbourhood, would it not?—Yes. . 5389. Would you get a rise of rents then ?—I do not think they could go very much higher than what they are at the present time. 5390. You do not think an increased demand for house would increase the rents ?—Yes, it might do that certainly. I was talking to one woman yesterday. She is one of a few left in Lucas Street, and she was telling me that in order to pay the rent she has had to take in three single men lodgers. 5391. Is that a house of which you are agent ?—No. I was making inquiries, and while I was there another woman caine up and endorsed her remarks as to the enormous rise in the rents. 5392. There is no question that the rents have gone up enormously ?—Yes. I have a case here where a .shop 'was let at 15s. a few months ago, and it is now let at 30s. ; and these people have got to adopt all manner of schemes and live in. hovels in order to pay these enormous rents. 5393. You say the high rents lead to great over crowd- ing ?—Undoubtedly. 5394. In order that the rent may be paid?—Yes. There was a case I heard of yesterday. There were no less than 48 people living in that house and shop. 5395. Where is that?—In the Commercial Road. They say it is rack-rented at £48. There were 48 people living there, and two of them were sleeping on the leads aft the back during last summer, and they drove a nail into the chimney stack to hang their clothes on; the man n^xt door would not put up with it any longer, and made a noise about it, and then they stopped it. 5396. Were the Sanitary Inspectors sent for on these occasions ?—I do not suppose they were. The Sanitary Inspectors get sick of this sort of thing ; they have so much of it. In another case I found in this same house one man sleeping on the parapet over the shop. 5397. These are all cases of overcrowding, which we have already gone into generally ?—As regards the risfc in the value of property, this lease three years ago was- sold for £80, and 18 months after that it fetched £120. A month ago it fetched £150, and the lease has only between 10 and 12 years to run. 5398. Was that a premium on the purchase of the lease ?—I suppose so. The man who has been living there for some years is an alien. He told my: in- formant about this overcrowding. There are only six, rooms in it, and he was paying £75 a year just for this shop and a parlour, and one room above. 5399. We need not trouble you about these details, because we have had all these overcrowding details- before ?—Yery well. Examined by Lord Rothschild. 5400. I think you mentioned Coopers Hall as an alleged Socialist haunt ?—It used to be. 5401. When were you there last ?—I really could not say ; it was some years back. 5402. Would you be astonished to hear that Coopers Hall has been closed for at least eight years?—No, I should not. 5403. It is eight years ago since it was a Socialist haunt ?—Yes. 5404. If it was a Socialist haunt eight years ago it cannot have much to do with alien immigration at the present moment ?—They were all aliens who were in this Hall at the time I was there. 5405. We are inquiring into the conditions of the aliens, not eight years ago, but now. You also said there were a great many alien landlords ?—Yes. 5406. I want to know whether these aliens become landlords when they arrive here or after they have been here some time ?—-After they have been here some time. 5407. Then they have made money here ?—Decidedly. 5408. You also said that there was collusion between the landlord and the tenant about the amount of rent ?' —Yes. 5409. Can you name any distinct case where there was?—Yes. This was told to me by an alien I could mention. 5410. You know nothing about it yourself?—I only know what he has told me, that is all. 5411. You do not know the names of the people ?— Yes, I do. 5412. But you have no proof yourself of it?—This- man's brother is the one who is doing it. 5413. You have no proof yourself. I think you men- tioned Albert Square ?—Yes. 5414. Do you know who the landlord of Albert Squar©' is ?—Morris Cohen. 5415. He is not an alien ?—Is he not ? I was told h© was. 5416. I suppose you know he has improved the pro- perty considerably before putting up the rents, and built large workshops ?—I was not aware of that. 5417. He has also bought property all over London- and improved it ?—Has he ? I know a very short time ago he was in a very small way. 5418. I am told Morris Cohen has been here 30 years^ and you cannot call him an alien ?—Has he ? 5419. (Chairman.) I think you said you thought he was ?—Yes. 5420. (Mr. Vallance.) With reference to the case which you referred to in Dunk Street, you say there was collusion between the tenant and the landlord and a false return was made ?—Yes. 5421. That return was the basis of the assessment? —Yes. 5422. The actual rent was 27s., and the rent re- turned was 15s.—Yes. 5423. What was the rateable value?—I really could- not tell you. I do not suppose this man knew. He was an uneducated man, and we were talking about this-MIXI TES OF EVIDENCE. 183 immigration, and he is a man who has beeii here for some years, and he was saying that it ought to have been stopped some years ago. 5424* How can you say it was based on 15s., if you do nat know the rateable value? (Chairman.) Is not the rateable value always taken, particularly with the compound householders, by taking an arbitrary percentage of the rent paid ? Do not you take the rent first, and then take the rateable value so -much less ? (Mr. Vallance.) It is on a scale. The scale is fixed by the County Council, and it depends upon the amount -of rating in the district, so that they take a certain table upon the basis of the general rating. Having adopted this table, the sum roughly comes out at a .deduction from the gross weekly rental of 33 per cent. . (Chairman.) I thought that was about it. So that df you get the right rent and take off the 33 per cent, you get your rateable value. (Mr. Vallance.) No, that is the gross value. (Chairman.) But with regard to the compound house- holder you take less than the gross value. (Mr. Vallance.) No, the gross value is the rent -which a hypothetical yearly tenant will give for the property, and to reduce the tenure from a weekly to & yearly tenure a deduction is made—roughly it approxi- mates to the 33^ per cent., and that represents the gross value which a hypothetical tenant pays. Then there is a deduction of a fourth, fifth, or sixth, accord- ing to the rent, to represent the cost of maintenance. (Chairman.) Then you get what you are rated at by taking off these sum®; but to the compound house»- iholder again, inasmuch as the authority has not the expense of collecting, an allowance is made, and he pays -a smaller sum. (Mr. Vallance.) That is under the Bate Collection Act. 5425. I want to know what your justification is for MrW. saying that the rate was based on 15s. a week, when Q. A, Disc. you cannot say what the rating was?—This man told — me that his brother lived in this house, and that the 12 June11902 landlord gave the return as 15s. per week rent received, and he fcold me that his brother paid 27s. 5426. As a house agent you would be aware probably that the occupiers are required to make returns ?—Yes, they are. 5427. And appended to that return is a declaration? —Yes, that is quite right. 5428. It is also within your experience that assess- ment committees in dealing with these returns very frequently require further evidence in the shape of rent books and so forth?—I have been told that they base their calculation upon what they think it is worth very often; that is to say, if you had a house and you said that you only paid £15, and they thought it was worth £20, they would assess you on the £20. They would not take your word for it, unless they thought it was correct. As regards the loss of trade, may I mention the case of a friend of mine who fourteen years ago was taking between £3,000 and £4,000 per annum in a hosier's shop. At the present time he is only doing £2,000 per annum, and he puts this change down entirely to this alien immigration. 5429. (Chairman.) Where is the shop?—In the Mile End Road. He says where a man would come in for a 2s. 6d. shirt he now comes in for a Is. 0^d. shirt, and whereas people would come in for a white shirt, which means 4s., or 5s., or 6s. 6d., these people will come in for a 6^d. front. 5430. Does your friend the hosier deal in these cheap things ?—'He has to. 5431. Then the people are getting things cheaper than they did before?—No, they buy a less price article. 5432. They pay less for a shirt front?—Yes. FOURTEENTH DAY. Monday, 16th June 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Lord Rothschild. . I Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. I Mr. William Vallance. Dr. Daniel Lewis Thomj 5433. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What are you ?—Medi- cal Officer of Health and Public Analyst to the Borough of Stepney. 5434. Since when have you held your present posi- tion ?^7-Sinoe December, 1899 ; but- the previous Medi- cal Officer of Health held office until March 31st, 1901. 5435. You have been Medical Officer of Health and Analyst to the Limehouse District Board of Works for . 4g years ?—Yes. 5436. And you have been in general practice in the Mile End Road from 1892 to 1896 ?—I have. 5437. What appointments have you held besides ?— I have been District Medical Officer to the County Council, Surgeon to the Fire Brigade, Deputy District Medical Officer of Mile End, and of various Provident Societies. 5438. You have studied at the London Hospital?— Yes. 5439. So what is your total experience in the district in question 1—About 15 years. 5440. On your notes first you give u ssome informa- tion with regard to the steps you have taken in J, called ,* and Examined. ])r. D. L Thoma*. respect of food adulteration, and I think it would ir, T lono be convenient to run through these. I think you had ___ better take the totals of the different districts, beginning with Limehouse, rather than each detail ?—The total samples purchased from Jews were 24 ; six were adul- terated, or at the rate of 25 per cent. 5441. What is the total number of shops?—312. 5442. That is to say, shops in which the articles— milk, butter, pepper, coffee, and mustard—have been sold ?—Yes. 5443. The total of these shops is 312?—Yes. 5444. And what is the number of Jewish and foreign shops ?—75. 5445. And Christian shops?—237. 5446. (Chairman.) Do you say Jewish as distin- guished from alien immigrants? 5447. (Major Evans - Gordon.) Are some of these shops, or a number of them, held only by foreigners ?— A large number cannot speak English.. 5448. The inference is that they are foreigners largely ?—They are Jews largely. I have not made out my statistics except, as between Jew and Christian.184 IvOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr.m D. L. 5449; It is impossible to distinguish ?—Yes. Then' 100 articles were bought of. Jewish shops? -'—Yes ; and 23 were adulterated—'that is, 23 per cent. , 5455., And the Christians ?—Twelve of the articles purchased from the Christians were adulterated, or at the rate of 7'6 per cent. Eleven persons were pro- secuted, and one cautioned. 5456. Then take St. George's-in-the-East ?—The total number of samples purchased from Jews was 85. t ,5457. What was the total number of shops, first of all?—Two hundred and twenty-five, and the numoer of Jewish shops was 135, and the number of Christian shops was 90. The total number of samples purchased •from Jews was 85, of which 32 were found to be adul- terated, or at the rate of 37*6 per cent. The total number of samples from Christians was 53, five of which ' were found to be adulterated, or at the rate of §*2 per cent. ' '5458. Then take Whitechapel ?—The total number of shops was 290; the number of Jewish shops Was 213, ancl the number of Christian shops was 77. The total number of'' saniples purchased' from Jews was '96, of which 21 were found to be adulterated, or 21*4 per cent. The total number of samples purchased from Christians was 34, of which 10 were found to be adulterated, or at the rate of 29*4 per cent. 5459. Now, will you sum these figures up as regards the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney ?—There were 541 shops owned by Jews, and 560 shops owned, by Chris- tians ; the total being 1,101. 5460. What were the respective adulterations ? The total number of samples bought from Jews was 293, of which 82 were found to be adulterated, or at the rate of 28 per cent. ; 40 vendors were cautioned, and 42 were prosecuted. The number of vendors prosecuted was 42, or 14*6 per cent. ?—Yes. 5461. The number of samples bought from Chris- tians was 379, of which 49 were found to be adulterated, or at the rate of 13 per cent, ; 23 vendors were cautioned, and the number of vendors prosecuted was 26, or at the rate of 8*8 per cent. ?—Yes. 5462. What does that generally lead you to as com- paring the two populations ?—That the percentage of ;• t adulteration is more by 14*6, as compared, to 8"8 ; but with regard to some of the articles the adulteration is confined entirely to the Jews that- is to say, pepper and. mustard are confined practically entirely to the Jews.. Only occasionally we find adulteration among Christians in these two articles. 5463. All over, you get about 50 per cent, more adulteration among the foreign than the Christian population'? 5464. {Chairman.) You use the word " Jews." A good many Jews, I fancy, speak English?—There is the difference between 14*6 and 8 8. Tt is not quite 50 per cent. 5465. (Major JBJvans Gordon.) These figures you give us represent a great change of ownership of the shops, do they not?—Yes, they do. 5466. That is to say, among these shops with Which alone you deal, a great many Christian shopkeepers have given up business, or have been turned out, or does it mean that these other people have started businesses ?—Both ; if Jews come to a street, or occupy two or three streets, then you generally find one or two Jewish shops being opened where there used to be private houses ; so that the tendency is to have shops where formerly there were only private houses. 5467. Then also Christian- shops are displaced:?-t~- Yes ; this is more marked with milk especially. •••I remember will en I started as a medical officer of 'health, , there was hardly a Jew dairyman in the Lime ho use District Board of Works, comprising the parishes of Limehouse, Shadwell, and Wappimg. Now there are many. There were very few Jews, selling milk ill that district six years ago, but they are going in very largely for this particular trade now. 5468. That lias a corresponding effect on the Eng- lish trader ?—Naturally, it displaces Christian milk- sellers. , • . 5469. Do you consider that that is a subject of com- plaint and hardship amongst the shopkeepers ?—I should not like to say that. 5470. There has been a Mr. Williams, a milkman, ih Old Montagu Street. Do you know anything about him ?—There used to be a Williams in Old Montagu Street. 5471. In a large way of business ?—He kept a large- number. of cows. 5472. He was a dairyman ?—Yes. 5473. What do you know about him?—He has left the neighbourhood ; he left nine or twelve months ago. He sold his business to a Jew. ? 5474. Do you know whether this adulteration gene- rally is increasing?—It. is impossible to say, because it is impossible to compare. The conditions are not the same now as they were two or three years b^ck; the' method of taking samples has altered; and the Act is carried out more stringently now than it was under the- old vestries; that is the Food and Drugs Act. There- fore, no doubt, we have discovered a great increase. Our result during the last 15 months shows a great increase in the adulteration; but I think thai' is due' more especially to the method of detecting the: adultera^ tion, and not to the increase in adulteration, so I do not think it can be compared. 5475. (Mr. Vallance.) Are there no figures of previous- years of Dr. Loane's in Whitechapel with which you can compare these figures ?—Yes, but as regards Dr. Loane, in the old Whitechapel Board, they had one «anii«iy inspector to do nothing else but take samples under the Food and Drugs Act. He was an old man named Mr. ' Roake, as you know. If he went down a street every- body in the street would know what his business was, because he did not do anything else but administer the Food and Drugs Act. Therefore, the amount of adul- teration he found was very small. Now, all the in- spectors that were under the Whitechapel Board of Works are inspectors under the Food and' Drugs Act, and when the people see an inspector coming down a street, they do liot know whether he is going to take a*1 sample under the Food and Drugs Act, or whether be is on his ordinary dirties ; but under the old conditions . they knew when they saw the inspector out what his business was. 5476. (Chairman.) What then?—Then, of course, they would prepare, that is to say, they would know a sample was being taken for the purpose of being analysed, and generally nearly every milkman has two receptacles con- taining milk, one to sell to his best customers, and the' other to casual customers- Very often they have two* prices. So you can depend upon it when, they saw this inspector in the street they sold the best quality. 5477. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Take this question of the milk trade P—I think in the milk trade there is more adulteration, for this reason : that the price of milk has gone down. Christian milk-sellers invariably sold the milk for 4d. a quart. Now., since Jews have gone in far the milk trade, one started selling milk for 3d. a quart, and the Christians followed suit. It is a matter of impossibility to sell pure milk for 3d. a quart and to live by it. Therefore, the adulteration in milk, I con- sider, during the la§t few years is greater. - 5478. Therefore the competition set up in this way has deteriorated the milk?—There is no question about that. 5479. With regard to these articles which you deal with, in your evidence, should you say that this Jewish competition has lowered the standard of articles generally, and led to more adulteration?—Yes, because the adulteration of pepper and mustard was really un- known a few years ago in the East End, and it is only recently that we have discovered adulteration to a greatMINCJTES OF EVIDENCE, 185 <3^eat. As I say, the. adulteration of these two articles is practically confined, to all intents and purposes, to the Jews. Therefore, they must add to the general irate of adulteratioiL. v T ^ r •■■'i ";548Q^.Ntwjm will come to the subject-of overcrowd- ing in yoiir notes. First, will you "give us your' views .about the administration of the Public Health Act?— The difficulty in the administration of the Public Health "Act is, to a great extent, due to the fact that a :riotice shall be served on the person by whose act, default, :or'sufferancenthe nuasanbe arises or continues, or, if such person cannot be found, on the occupier or o^ner of the, premises^ ^requiring him to abate the same within the time specified. Some magistrates maintair. Airat the. occupier is the person who ought to- be pro- feeeded}agaiii;st. I have taken proceedings against the •owner, and at other times against the occupier. Th? •owner has always a good defence ; that he does not live last person to< , be attacked-- *>f Tell us about the first person ; that is to ,sa"y, the .person occasioning the nuisance ?-—If thab .always,,occurred it would be putting a premium on- overcrowding.. ,, It is:impossible for us to find out such overcrowding..as occurs immediately. Before we dis- cover overcrowding the.....owner has been receiving: the illegal, rent due to the overcrowding ; that is to say, .before wfe discover overcrowding, the owner has been receiving the extra- rent owing to the fact that his house is overcrowded. The tenants can afford to pay, »nd ^do-gay, a higher rent 'for ^ ^room if itf~ m- bver- •crowded. Of course, the tenantW also gain by it, be- cause iff they complied with the 'Acfr *" they would have .to j>ake a larger number of rooms, and* pay more rent; that is to say, they split the difference ; but, on the other hand, it is also true that the tenant would be able to afford to rent a larger number of rooms if the landlord ' did not demand a high rent, so it cuts, both ways. The high rents cause overcrowding, arid the want of accommodation and the overcrowding cause the high rents. The two work together. 5483. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They act and react ?—-Yes. 5484. You are speaking of proceedings for a :riuasance ?—I am speaking of proceedings for a nuisance under the Public Health Act. to abate overcrowding. 'MfeJjirod6dure is that the inspector, when he detects overcrowding, serves an intimation notice, calling on •.the owner > or the oidcupier^—that is, the man' that he •considers the cause of the nuisance—to abate the nuisance. If that does not occur he reports' to the Public Health Committee through me, and a statutory inotice is served calling on the person to remove the nuisance within fourteen days, or, if he does not within lourteeii days, then proceedings will be taken against him for overcrowding. At the end of the fourteen days, if1 the overcrowding is not abated, we take out a summons. The summons is made returnable within iesven days—generally on that day week after the appli- cation. So from the time we detect the overcrowding to the time the summons is heard a month or five weeks is bound ;to elapse. If the magistrate convicts and makes an order to abate the nuisance within seven days, or if he takes into consideration the difficulty of get- ting house accommodation in the East End, he may make it 14 days, or three Weeks, and it is impossible io abate the nuisance from the; time it is discovered under aix weeks. i- 5485; {Major E vans-Gordon.) Do you find in your ex- perience -that the magistrates5 do take;: this view of the •difficulties of providing for these people ? Do they think that is a reason for being lenient with them?— 'There is no question about it, 5486. Do the magistrates say : " It is all very well, Imt where are you to put these people ? "—-That depenas on the magistrate. Mr. Dickinson does not take that into consideration at all. Other magistrates do. Before going on I should like to say there is a section in the Act which says that if we take proceedings on two occasions for the same house within three months, then, we can proceed to have an order to close that house ; 6144 Dr. D. Thomas." but, as you see, if it takes six weeks to abate one over- crowding, it is a matter of impossibility to get two con- victions within three months, arid that section of the --^ Act is absolutely a dead letter. It has never been put lo June 190£| in force to my knowledge by any district in London. It is ideally a dead letter, because it. cannot be done. • 5487. You- cannot get your convictions in the time laid down?—No. : 5488. You would suggest it would be an improvement to extend that time?—It would be an improvement; but, at the same time, if we> went to the same house, say, a week after we had had an order from the magis- trate to abate, and followed that up practically, I am afraid we should be charged with persecuting and not prosecuting—that is to say, if we went immediately after we had had a conviction to try to prosecute again, I think we should be charged with persecuting. 5489. Will ryou go on now about; the sanitary in- spectors and what they do ?—The sanitary inspectors for the various parts of ;the borough have from time to time reported various cases of overcrowding, and the Public Health Committee have, without exception, authorised proceedings to be taken to abate the nuisance. The inspectors visited^ a;t night, or what ! found more successful, and gave rise to the least annoy- ance, they visited between six and eight in the morning. In no instance was it necessary to have a magistrate's order to gain admittance to the premises. If we go to the premises between nine o'clock at night and six in the morning we must have a magistrate's order, or they can refuse to give us admittance, and ,t}ie magis- trates will not grant an order. In fact, there has been a High Court case to decide that there must be evidence of nuisance at a certain house before he can grant an order. . 5490. (Chairman.) A night order ?—Yes. 5491. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yqu &a>ve never had any difficulty in getting in?-—No. People are under the impression that we have that power. 5492. '(Chairman.) And you do not undeceive them ? —No, we do not. 5493. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Give us the total number bf cases in which you have taken action. ^These are all, J understand, under 'the Public Health Act ? —Yes, under the Public Health . Act. 5494. (Chairman.) Within what area?—Iri the Borough of Stepney. 5495. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) This is since you have been Medical Officer of the Borough of Stepney ?—Yes. There are 434 cases of overcrowding which were abated during the year, 36 of which occurred in workshops. 5496. (Chairman.) Was that by proceedings?;—By proceedings where the nuisance was not abated. I will give the number of proceedings. 5497. (Major Evans-Gordon.) 434 cases were abated? —Yes. 5498. (Lord Rothschild.) That is to say, you put a stop to overcrowding in these cases ?—Yes. 5499. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Take the district of Limehouse?—Thirty-five occured in Limehouse, 17 were Jews and 18 were Christians ; 42 occurred in Mile End, 41 being Jews and one Christian ; 190 occurred in St. George's-in-the-East, 173 being Jews and 17 Chris- tians ; 167 occurred in Whitechapel, 145 being Jews,and 22 being Christians. These were practically from the 1st April to the end of the year. That was the time I took entire charge. 5500. That is nin,e months ?—Yes. Then this year from the 1st January practically to the present time, 189 cases of overcrowding have been abated, three having occurred in workshops, 26 occurred in Lime- house, 12 being Jews and 14 being Christians ; 73 oc- curred in; Mile End, 50 being Jews and 23 being Chris- tians ; ,6Q occurred in St. George's, 68 being Jews and one being a Christian ; 21 occurred in the Whitechapel district, the 21 being Jews. So that from the 1st April of last year to the present time 623 cases of overcrowd- ing have been abated, 526 being in houses occupied by Jews and 96 in houses occupied by Christians. After serving intimation notices arid statutory notices the overcrowding was abated in most instances, but it was necessary to take proceedings against 12. 5501. In the other cases the notice was efficacious? —Yes. A A186 ROYAL COMMISSION 6K ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr. D. L. Thomas. 5502. Without any further proceedings f—Yes. 5503. That was under the Public Health Act?—Yes. 16 June 1902. 5501. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) In how many cases was the --notice effective?—623 minus 12. 5505. (Chairman.) Does that mean in all these cases no proceedings were taken?—No proceedings, except- ing notices, with the exception of 12. 5506. Did the notices abate the nuisances ill the 611 cages P—Yes. 5507. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You took actual pro- ceedings in the Court against 12?—Yes* 5508. That is this year ?—There were 12 last year. 5509. Up to date, have you taken anff ?<—~Yes, I have >aken this year eight summonses, or rather nine sum- monses, against eight persons. 5510. I saw in the paper there were two in the Court on Saturday?—That is so. 5511. Do you include those?—I include those. 5512. In these cases in which you took proceedings— 20 altogether—have you divided them between Jew and Christian ?—Ye*. With the exception of two, they were all Jews. 5513. First of all, will you give lis the list of penalties and costs?—James Donaghue, £7, Perth Street, who was ordered to abate the nuisance, &nd to pay 23s. costs. Joseph Spurling, 99, Bedford Street, filled £3 and 23s. costs, and order to abate. Solomon Mardoltz, 1, Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate, and fined Is., with 27s. costs. Woolf Gre&nbaum, 4, Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate, and fitted ls.r with 27s. costs. Nathan Klertz, 5, Waterloo Court, St, Georges, ordered to abate, and fined Is., with 27s. costs. Morris Limp, 7, Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate and fined Is., with 27s. costs; Morris Werma- toosky, 8,Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate, and fined Is., with 27s. costs. Jacob Wym&n, 13, Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate, and fined Is., with 27s. costs. Jacob Finklestein, 14, Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate, and fined Is., with 27s. costs. Morris Vecksher, 15, Waterloo Court, St- George's, ordered to abate,,and fined Is., with 27s. costs, Asher Mendles, 16,Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate, and fined Is., with 27s. costs. Solomon Greenbaum, 17, Waterloo Court, St. George's, ordered to abate, and fined Is., with 27s. costs. 5514. In all these 12 cases I see the fines were prac- tically Is. and the costs 27s. ?—Yes. In 10 of the cases last year the fine was Is. with 27s. costs. 5515. And this year what has it been ?—In this year one man was fined Is., with 23s. costs, and one was fined £2, with 23s. costs. One was fined 5s., with 23s. costs, and one was fined 25s., and in two instances Is., with 2s. costs, and last Friday one was fined 40s., with 23s. costs, and in another case of overcrowding in a workshop the fine was £6 ani 23s. costs. In the majority of cases the fine is a small fine. 5516. Do they have to pay the fine iiu Court?—They have to pay the fine before they are allowed to leave the police-court. 5517. And the costs ?—The costs, if they do not pay at the time, we have to recover by means of distress warrant. 5518. In that case, do you get your costs ?—No, five of the 12 prosecuted last year paid in full; five paid the fines only, the costs being still owing ; two paid nothing at all, and were detained for one day in custody, and • then allowed to go. 5519. So that in these proceedings hitherto the result of what you have been doing is that the burden of pay- ment has fallen upon the Council itself ?—That is so. 5520. So if the Borough Council pays the costs, and these people are only fined Is., it is a premium on over- crowding ?■—It is. Up to the present we have not gone any further to recover the costs—that is, we have not had any distress warrants. 5521. Supposing you went further and took out dis- tress warrants, that means civil procedure, and con- sequently more expense ?—It would cause more expense. 5522. And a doubtful return?—Yes. If we sold them up the money recoverable for the goods and chattels would probably not pay the costs incurred. 5523. You would be out of pocket over the whole transaction ?—Yes. 5524. I shall ask you presently about the Booth Street Buildings. You have had occasion to prosecute the owner, Mr. Harris? — Yes, for overcrowding and for various nuisances. 5525. How many summonses have you had against him altogether ?—Since I have been Medical Officer of Health I have served him with 22 summonses. 5526. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What is he?—He is the; owner of Booth Street Buildings. 5527. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Twenjty-two summonses have been issued against him ?—Yes. 5528. What has he been fined ?—He was fined for per- mitting overcrowding Is. and 2s. costs, with an order to abate, and to prohibit the recurrence of overcrowd- ing. The magistrate only made an order to abate m the first instance, but we called his attention to tne fact that if he convicted, and there were two convic- tions within three months, then we could proceed against the owner to close the house, and we asked him to impose a penalty, and he imposed a penalty of Is. 5529. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) In order to give the juris- diction to close?—Yes. 5530. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These 22 summonses have been apparently quite ineffective?—The first 10 summonses he carried out, or rather he did what he could for the time being to abate the nuisance, and the summonses were adjourned sine die. Then lh» nuisances recurred, and were worse than before, f nd we took out another 10 summonses. 5531. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) For overcrowding?—Noy for various nuisances. We only served him with .wo summoiises for overcrowding. 5532. We had a description of the sort of nuisances the other day ?—I think I can give you a description later on. They are the worst houses in my district. 5533. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was there a recent pro- secution of Isaac Israel, of 8, Bromehead Street ?—That was last week. 5534. He was fined 40s., with 23s, costs?—Yes. 5535. Has that been recovered ?—I could not say. 5536. Bromehead Street has always been' one of the best streets in Stepney, as far as I remember ?—It used to be a very good street- We had another prosecution* this year in the same street, at No. 32, so we have had two prosecution this year in Bromehead Street—at. No. 8 and at No. 32. 5537. That would indicate that the bad conditions are moving into Bromehead Street?—Yes. 5538. (Mr. Variance.) Where is * that %—It is at the eastern end of Stepney. It is close to the George Tavern. It is about two turnings on the western side, of the Geoge Tavern in the Commercial Road. 5539. In Mile End Old Town ?—Yes. 5540. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I think you come tc* Booth Street Buildings on the next page of your notes. Will you deal with that now?—The owner was sum- moned for failing to abate various nuisances at Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, Blocks, Booth Street Buildings. These buildings are occupied entirely by- aliens. The floors and the passages are always covered with about half an inch of caked mud. The paving of the yards and washhouses was defective. In the yaras^ are various trough closets for the use of the tenants. These are flushed automatically. The frequency with* which they are flushed can be regulated as to whether they are flushed every half hour or every hour or simply once a day, and as Mr. Harris pays for the water by meter, the reason is obvious why they are not flushed frequently enough. The w.c.'s, with the exception of about three, which are kept locked, out of 25 or 30, are always in a filthy condition; they are always^ choked up, and not sufficiently flushed. The seats- are always in a filthy condition. 5341. (Chairman.) Cannot you say the result is that* they are kept in a most filthy condition and unfit for human use? We can take that from you?—That is so. They are really the worst in my district. 5542. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The result of it is that the floors and yards are all filthy, too?—Yes, all filthy. They are the worst. I wanted to emphasise that, be-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 187 cause, 1 believe Dr. Shirley Murphy told you they were not worse than any other house in the neighbour- hood. 5545. (Sir Kendm Digby.) No, he did not say that. What he said was they were open to other people ?— Then I was under a wrong impression. 5544. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you go on to tell txs about what steps the caretaker takes to keep these places clean ?—Yes. 5545. They are absolutely ineffective ?—Absolutely ineffective. 5546. And the sai&e process therefore, the closets not Ibeing cleaned out, goes on fouling the floors, yards, and so on ?—Yes, day after day. 5547^ You say the pavement of the yards if full of lioles, and so forth ?—Yes. . 5548. What is the population of these buildings?— $53—-349 adults, and 204 children under 10 years of age. 55#. In spite- of all these other conditions and the summonses, what has been the effect?—-The magis- trate simply imposed a fine of Is. The dirty condition of. these premises made overcrowding a worse offence than if it occurred in a clean house, and in spite of this we only had a fine of Is., and 2s. costs. Our ex- penses in connection with that case came to about £2 5s. in e^ch. instance, so that we were from about £2 10g. to £3 out of pocket. 5650. On each summons? — Yes. We paid the •solicitor two guineas, and then there is the summons 3s., so that is £2 5s. in each summons. 5551. In each summons out of the 22 P—Only two summonses were taken for overcrowding. ,5552. So it is a most costly business for the council? —Yes. 5553. What happened in the other summonses for nuisance ?—We had 25s. costs in those. 5554. Those were recovered ?—Yes. 5555. But the penalties attaching to this disgrace- ful state otthings are not real deterrents at all?—Not a bit. 5556. They go on just the same ?—Yes. I must say that the owner of these buildings is the worst man that I have to deal with in the whole district. 5557. He has had 22 summonses during the last 18 months ?—Yes. 5558. You say something about Mr. Romain, Mr. Harris's solicitor?—His defence for the filthy condi- tion of the premises was that it was due entirely to the people, and his solicitor, Mr. Romain, said if these people were placed in Buckingham Palace they would be exactly the same. 5559. His argument was that the pigs make the sty instead of the sty making the pigs ?—-Yes. 5560. With regard to these proceedings which you take for overcrowding, do you find where it is abated in one neighbourhood, or series of houses, it is in- creased in another?—Taking it as a general rule we find that if the overcrowding is abated in one street the people do not go very far. Therefore, it naturally follows that it causes overcrowding in the surrounding streets. 5561. You have Had personal experience of that re- cently?—Yes. I visited a house, at 2, Richardson Street, Mile End ; it was grossly overcrowded. There "had been a suspicious case of small-pox in the house, and I visited the house for that purpose. The notice was served and the overcrowding was abated. When the inspector who had served the notice was taking particulars of overcrowding at 32, Bromehead Street, a few days afterwards he found the tenants that had been displaced were the new tenants at 32, Bromehead head Street. 5562. Therefore, the overcrowding at 2, Richard- son Street was reproduced close by at 32, Broomehead Street ?—Yes. 5563. That is the old story of the ferret in the burrow again ?—Yes. 5564. (Sir Kendm Digby.) Did he take proceedings against 32, Bromehead Street?—Yes. We got rid of the old tenants and-prosecuted the tenants of Brome- head Street, but the new tenants who came in were the 6144 people we had displaced in Richardson Street a few days Dr. D. L. before. Thomas. 5565. You will prosecute again?—We shall have to, 16 June 1902, or serve notice at all events. — 5566. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is an illustration of the endless process which goes on ?—It is an illus- tration. 5567. Now, tell us you view about working under the new bye-laws. I understand your work as to over- crowding has been practically exclusively confined to the Public Health Act ?—Yes. We found that the bye- laws were too cumbersome, and it was impossible to get a conviction under the bye-l^s. 5568. (Chairman.) Which bye-laws?—The old bye- laws with regard to houses let in lodgings, but so far as overcrowding is concerned, the new sections are ex- actly the same as the old sections. 556&. (Major Evans - Gordon.) Have those been passed ?—Yes. 5570. The council have accepted them ?—Yes. 5571. Now they have to go to the Local Government Board again?—Yes, they have to be submitted. The process after they are sanctioned and approved by the Local Government Board is for them to be sent back to our council for approval. Then they have to be advertised for a month in local papers and then sub- mitted to the Local Government Board. 5572. So when will you be able to work under them ? —In about a month's time, I should think, from now. 5573. Tell us what has happened?—The great bone of contention between the Local Government Board and ourselves was the exemption clause. That is to say the Local Government Board wanted to put in a clause exempting houses above a certain rental from the provisions of these bye-laws. The bye-laws of the Limehouse and Mile End districts did not contain an exemption clause. In St. George's the rental was 5s. for unfurnished and 7s. 6d. for furnished rooms. In Whitechapel the rental was 10s. unfurnished and 14g. furnished in the revised bye-laws. The bye-laws would be useless practically if we inserted the rental clause. The landlord naturally objects to have his house registered, and he would give two rent-books to the tenants ; one would be the real one and the other would be a fictitious one; the second one would show a higher rental, and would be such as to exempt the house from registration. There is a rent-book kept by people in the district now which is produced and shown to the assessment committee; that is to say, these people have two rent-books at the present time, one the book on which the rent is paid, and the other that they produce at the landlord's request when he requires abatement of assessment. 5574. When he wants to be low he shows the low one, and when he wants to be high he shows the high one ?—Yes. 5575. These you have actually seen yourself ?— Yes ; in fact, when I have asked what the rent is, they have shown me a wrong book, and I have said, " This rent is very low," and they say, " Oh, I beg your pardon ; that is the wrong rent^book." 5576. If you were to go to purchase the house, they would show you the high one?—They would. 5577. You say the insertion of a rent exemption com- pletely defeats the law ?—It does. 5578. Is there a rent exemption in these new bye- laws ?—No. That was the greaJt bone of contention between us and the Local Government Board. The Local Government Board wanted us to insert an ex- emption clause, and we told them that it would make the bye-laws practically useless to us if they did, and we stuck out, a.nd after about 12 months' correspon- dence and deputations, and various other ways of trying to bring pressure on the Local Government Board, they gave way. 5579. (Chairman.) Is it always in the discretion of the Local Government Board, especially in relation to rents ? (Sir Kenelm Digby.) No ; not specially. (Chairman.) It is only general supervision? 5580. (Sir Kendm Digby.) Yes? —In the Public Health Act, it says the local authority shall make bye- laws. They issue model bye-laws to us to make bye- A A 2188 ROYAL COMMISSION UN ALIEN IMMIGRATION : laws, and we inalseSie"faye-Iaw^ b$ Thomas, ^proved by the Local, Government Beard. 16 Ju£etiiio2 55S1. (Chairman.) When you, say " "Y^e," whom do ■«„„ . , ' you mean?—The local authority. '558^1'That f would be1' the borough council' now?— l?es, tile borough council; 1 the Local Gofernihen|t Board have the power off vetoing any of these "bye- liw^%hatr -wemayinake,*^ and they refused to approve several of; the - bye4aws that we suggested. 5583. Do you know now if the Local Government Board allow all the authorities to make bye-laws with- out limitation of rent, or is it specially in • you? case? —-The last ..authority, I believe, wais Southwark ; I ^nk they1 clid not %aw an- ^^top^nJ^cfeuse. They have insisted on the exemption clause in a" great many, or 'they asked, at the; new bye4aws the same as the old ones, except in relation to- the non-limitation ?—There are a few additions with re- gard to cleansing, but nothing with regard to detect- ing and aJbatmg ^^overcrowdlihg. ' ' 5585. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It makes all the difference whether you get the use of the bye-laws or not ?—Yes ; but in Milfe End and'Limehouse we do not have a rent limit at all, and it was for the purpose of bringing the four bye-laws into line and trying to arrange diffi- culties that, we, had. .bye-tla^s-. ior. t'heJBorough of Step- ney, because we found the bye-laws for the four districts did not correspond. . 5586. (Major Evans - Gordon.) So you have made them for the whole borough ?—Yes. f; :558?& (©^aiTO^%) Al^ wit^xit limitation ?^—Ye&± 5588. (Major Evans-Gordori.) Then you go on to say the; bye-laiws state the' keepei* of a house, and so on ?—Yes';', the bye:laws state that the keeper of a house let in 'lodgiiigs' ihusV keep ?the common passages and staircases' blea^ii:, etc. A:" keeper " is any one that rents a house and sub-lets. It is no unusual thing for a person to/take a housS, sub-let it, and1 by th&t means not only live rent^ffeehiniself, butmale a few shil- lings a week;clear profit. . It is therefore only right that these duties should ibe placed on him. Unfor- tunately, these so-called model dwellings cannot be registered, though the owner who sulb-lets these tene- ments is in an analogous position to that of a " keeper." A " keeper " is a man that rents a large house, and he sulb-lets in v^rious teiiements. He is called a " keeper. " He is the! man against whom we take proceedings, whereas in model dwellings like* Booth Street Build- ings the owner takes the place of the keeper ; that is to say, he sub-lets each of these tenements, but we can- not bring the model dwellings under the bye-laws. i> v5§8^i Is it by virtue of the old: limita- tion, or why cannot you bring them under the bye- laj^ |~fl'tr,£as J^een ruled, and I r believe you., had. the isase before you, that where there is not a front door, then each tenement is a separate house. 5590. Why should not they be inspectedi except for the limitation of jent?r—Because each tenement in a ^ tjiodel dwelling is a house in itself. If that tenement is Sublet, then wfer,can bring that part5 of it under'the bye-laws. <« WhiEit is the e^laniatidnr6f that P-i- 5 ; 5§92. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Every separate tenement is for this purpose to be* coBisidered a house, and therefore you do not bring the separate tenement under this Act unless there is in that separate tenement an under- letting ?—That is so. 1 , (Qhq,irm;an.) Why?. . .......... ; (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Because it is not a lodging- house. ■ ' • r. ■ • ' : ' 5593. (Chairman.) You do not get it within the words of the Act as a lodging-house ?—No. !,US5@4: ^Mafcrt' Mvbm-Gordon.) In retut^ for ^tMtyy^ou have always got the Public Health Act?—Yes. 5595. And the Public Health Act you have found effectivj?—Yes ; in-the case I quoted just now, the 10 out of the 12 cases we prosecuted we could not touchvunder the bye-laws. 5596.' At Boath Buildings ?-—No; at Waterloo Court. We "could. not touch tihem Under the bye-laws at all, because each house was occupied by one family only. 5597; (Chaitmati) That is a ' tenem&ItMor ParliaP- inefttary' purposes aiid evfei^ythiiig'el^^-^eSv 0 ,v 5593. (Major Evans - Gordon.) But still they were overcrowded ?—Yes. * " • , : • 55yJ. And you had them under the other barrel of your gun, the Public. Health Act ?—Yes., 5600. (Chairmdn.) You have no bye-laws in the- Public Health'Act; it is merely a criminal proceeding under the Public Ifealth Act?—Yes/ ' 5601. (Sir Kenelm Digby ) I suppose the real diffi- culty is to find out whether there is under-letting _ or siot."You may have a tenement ^Hich is Occupied by a number of people, and the difficulty is to find out whether it is one family or whether there is under- letting ?-1~Yes'^ but if* it v- ofc, ebuite;%r should proceed in any case* (Chairman.) I think in these modtel houses- like L'orJ Rowton's houses, each family occupies separately ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) There are only bachelors in Lord Rowton's houses. r , ^ 5602. (Chairman) Is there; any under-letting m these model dwellings ?—Yes. ' . 5ye-laws you do not .give nqtice ?•—-No. 5609. How can these bye-laws be evaded P—By a change of ownership. Under the Limehouse Board of Works I prosecuted. About nine sunimonses.; were taken out, and three of the summonses were dismissed. 5610. You were acting under the bye-laws P—Yes. The.mragisjtrate.'said /they, had changed .ow^eriship .^ince- they were registered. As a matter of fact, they had changed agency. That is, the owner had changed hi* agent, and as the agent was the person to receive the* rent he was,.the' owner, and as the agent had been changed, the Jiouse had become unregistered, and th© magistrate dismissed these three cases. Under the'/MINUTES4 OF EVIDENCE. #&8tfl4 ha^e; at fcye^law -that a> housei once -registejeed should be always registered, unless with the consent of; tihe' borQughi: council^ but rthey refused to allow itbat ;bye-law. •' The! Local Government. Board l£%te§ ifrom ^e magifeatev inasmuch: as itY.was the ^giiiioga of the Local Government Board that when* a ^houseriis^nce-^agisiered^dt alwiaysiis:registered, but^un?- fortunately, we have to deal with thermagistrates and .npt with, the Local Governmentr Board in prosecutions M this,so^t.{,c They differ;from the opinion of the magisr trate. A change of ownership, according to the magis- trate^ m^ and we should h^ve to re-register iWse houses from'the beginning again; 5611. ^understand from you. that the Local Govern- ment jBoard, consider^a house one© registered as always registered ?-^That is so. - , . §612.. If . they~ are of that , opinion, what objection 'paft, they have to' stereotyping that opinion in a special bye-law ?—I da not know ; but they refused to do it. 5613. Would that bye-law, that if a house was once pgi&t^e^^fOTStalways -registered,^avoid the>evasion by a change of agency, and would that improve your posir tion?—That would improve our position. .. ^§63$. ■ At. aJI events, qua acting under the bye-laws ? —-Yes. . i;s .: i.f561§f I rS^.-yQu have given us a resume here of the correspondence with the Local Government Board?— Jes. ... : ... . . ...... • 5616; That would go so show that neglect has not foeen shown on the part of the local ^authorities at all events ?—Yes. •- : • 5617. There has been a long correspondence, begin- ning on the 29th May, 1901, and ending on the 11th June, 1902 ?—Yes. The council adopted the bye-laws ori^the 29th' May; 1901, and the». Local Government Boar^ j did inot approve the bye-laws till June 11th, 1902,; more than 12 months afterwards. 5618. (Chairman.) Was there any causie for that delay tofoney cause was the exemption clause. The Lgc&L Government Board would not give way, and allow us to leave that exemption clause out, and we main- tained that the. exemption clause would make our bye- laws useless.. -/ j . 5619 a (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is the rent limit ? -Yes,, , - • 5620. (Mr. Vallance.) Was the origin of the exemp- tion clause in the model bye-laws prepared by the Local Government Board ?—Yes, it is in the model bye? laWS. .... . ... ts,. 5621. {Major Evans-Qqrdon.) It is their own child, api-tfrey' W6uld;^—Just so. The pro- :: -to • re^iiteriirg: house is to recommend it to the douncil; and the Stepney Borough Council passes it, that is to. say, registers it. There must be a resolution pf ;the borough council before a house can be put on tii$-$egi6ter, -'So"if 'there is any injustice or hardship done' oil the owner, he has an appeal before it is passed by the borough council. '^(Chairihan) What is the effect of non-registration? h ($ir'Kenelm Digby:) The effect of non-registration- i& that ,they: are not under the bye-laws at all. You must register in order to make the bye-laws apply. ih^Hwitfmarv.}These persons? would' wisli to keep off the register if; they could. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Certainly, because then they sa&io&ly genei^lf ; v ^ 5622. (Major Evans- Gordon.) Although these diffi- culties5 shave been thrown in your way about bye-laws, they have not in the least, or only to a very small extent, affected; your activity with regard to dealing with this overerwding question ?^Justf sb; ' . 5623. You have been using your other weapon, the Act-itself ?~l?es:, ■' : , . ..... y . 5624. Do you consider jthat th$t weapon you ha&e been using will, ]>,§.• ^.r^^ecti^e-^jbt.an.v this that you have obtained by these new bye-laws ?—We intend giving the new bye-laws a good trial, but I. cannot say whether they will be more effective. My only answer is, they do not prosecute in the other districts under the J)^il^^>fVa«d in the different; pMishes we did not pro- secute under the by-laws. h r ; I , y (Ghqdrman^)! Where did the limitation as to. rent come from ? -Was that merely an inherent power in the supervision of the Local Government Board ? — (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It was: merely this, as I under- stand it, that the model bye-laws by the Local Govern- ment Board contained a model clause leaving the amount blank : "In either of the following cases a lodging-house shall be exempt from the operation of the bye-laws ; that is, toisay, where-the, rent," and so .on. That -power only comes from the general power to make, bye-laws. 5625. (Chairman.) Such bye-laws as are. requisite ?— The sanitary authority " shall make and enforce." (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There might be a class of house witii -xegfcd to; wtiich it Would not be necessary. 5626. (Chairman.) It says : ^ requisite for the follow- ing pur poses/' and if requisite with one rental why nQt with another ? I should ;have: thought it was a strange thing for the Local Government Board to say : " We. say the Act shalltnot apply to certain houses." Supposing these councils had themselves said : " Under Section 94 we will fix bye-laws &s regards small houses and not large ones." I doubt' very much, whether they would be within the Act. At any rate it would be a most ex- traordinary thing for them to do, because their duty is to complete and ,pass bye-laws as a whole for houses,_ and it does, not say for small houses- However, the*- model bye-laws of .the Local. Government Board did:, have that limitation ?—Yes. In connection with that the County Council disputed that the Local Govern- ment BoaM had this pOwer of putting in an exemption. They had counsel's advice, and counsel advised them that the Local Government Board had not that power under the Act at all. 5627. That is just what T was saying. What became...... of that contention -It is before them now, and that was the reason the Local Government Board would not give way because of this dispute. 5628. Now they have given way ?—Yes. 5629. It may Ibe they hiave been advised they had no power ?-—I know they had Mr. Cripps' opinion on the question. 5630. However, this period of insufficient action is passed, because the Local Government Board y have given way, and you have got rid of the exemption ? - Quite so. ...... 5631. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.)_ You found, when the^ borough council came iiito being, how many houses; registered under these old" bye-laws ?-^-626. As "there • . had 'been a change of ownership in a large nu'mfber of cases, I; decided to register the lot. At the present time there are nearly 2,500 houses properly measured ' and recommended by the council to be registered, waiting , the oonvehience of the Local Government Board. 5632. They will be registered under the new bye-._ laws V—Yes. 5633. 2,500 houses ?—Yes. } 5634. Are they mostly in St. George's?—No; 5635. All over the district ?—Yes. 5636. Then you go on to say what you have already^ sadd, that you only endeavoured to enforce the old bye-laws, but they.. were so unsatisfactory that you left - them alone, and depended on the Public Health Act ?—Yes. .We had six convictions and three, sum- monses dismissed under the byeJaws in the Limefattse District. Board of. Works, the last conviction ■ being October, 1898. The fines imposed by the magistrates were 5s., in the first two, 20s. in' the second two, £4 and 20s. in the last two. I may say, with regard to the first 5s., the people' were so poor that they oame before the ^imehouse Board of Works) and the board paid the fine for them. 5637. Were the other fines recovered ?—Yes, so far as 1 know. • > 5638. Under these new bye-laws, will you get over the difficulty about this Ownership question ?—^1 am afraid we shall have to* fight it out from the start again. 5639. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You can get the keeper under the bye-laws %—Yes ; but the keeper very often is a man of straw—that is to> say, a person in some of the poorer parts of the district will take a house and sub- Thomas 16 June 1902*190 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. D. L. 1st it to others, and it is not really very much use Thomas, prosecuting him. What we want to get at, of course, would be the owner himself. 16 June 1902. {Chairman.) These suggested or model bye-laws did not come into force themselves. They were only sug- gestions to the sanitary authority. Supposing the sanitary authority said, "We will not accept the sug- gestions. They could have done so ? (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Certainly. 5640. (Chairman.) I do not understand why the offence is less in a place \ th a high rent than it is in a place with a low rent—The idea was, of course, to exempt places like Portland Place, where they have several families in one house. 5641. I do not suppose in thosay " abated," is it the abatement of each one of these particular cases, or is it an abate- ment throughout the district?—In each individual case. 5685. They abated what they complained of?:—Yes. Br, D. L. That is the nuisance was abated where it was com- Thomaa. plained of by means of notice without going to the - police-court, and all ur.*der the Public Health Act and June 1902 not under the bye-laws. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your view upon that point would differ from that of Dr. Shirley Murphy (Witness.) I have the replies of all the meaicai officers of health, so if there is any particular district with regard to which you would like to know tile answer of the medical officer of health, I should be only too pleased to give it. 5686. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Dr. Murphy pointed out there were, roughly, only 600 houses registered under these bye-laws in the whole of the Stepney Borough, but your point is that you have taken an enormous number of proceedings quite apart from- the bye-laws?—Quite apart from the bye-laws. 5687. Has the County Council brought any pressure, to bear upon you with regard to the administration of ' the sanitary law?—No, not while I was connected with- Limehouse, or during the time I have been connected with Stepney—not in a single instance. 5688. With regard to the effect of this administra- ... tion of the sanitary law, Dr. Murphy all through his. evidence kept on repeating that in his opinion the whole question of alien immigration and overcrowding was . exaggerated, and could, and should be, in his opinion,,. dealt with by a steady and systematic enforcement of the sanitary laws, with better bye-laws—which you have ... already got. I want to know what is your view on that point?—With regard to the bye-laws, the by-laws as,., amended by the Local Government Board are prao-. . frtically the same as they have in Islington, and in; Islington they had no case abated under the bye-laws; last year, or this year ; therefore if they proceeded! against overcrowding under the Public Health Act last year and this year in Islington, I do' not see how we shall gain very much by them. I am afraid we shall have to depend to -a very great extent even yet upon the Public Health Act. 5689. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) When you say no cases •abated, do you mean no prosecutions ?—No prosecu-. tions. 5690. (Chairman.) Is Islington a bad district for-., overcrowding ?—In Islington they abated. 145 cases of • overcrowding last year ; that is, overcrowding occurred." •in 145 cases. 5691. (Lord BothschZd.) Under the Public Health Act?—Under the Public Health Act entirely. 5692. They are all the cases they discovered?—Yes; there is no district in London that has not •& certain. amount of overcrowding ; there is no question about . that. 5693. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What I want to get from you more is, do you see, with your new bye-lawsi. and your Public Health Act, any hope of coping witfy the overcrowded conditions of Stepney, in view of the,. constant stream of people who are coming in ?—We, certainly could cope with the work, far better if we hadi none coming in ; that is, if the tap were turned off, and with the .same number of houses we could deal with the overcrowding in a far better way than if vt% allow any more to come in. As it is now, the vat is nearly full, or practically full, and flowing over, sq,, that any more water pouring into the vat makes it. worse for us. There is no question about that, 5694. (Chairman.) Unless you let it out at the other, end?—Yes, my Lord. 5695. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Dr. Shirley Murphy's view is that a systematic and steady enforcement of the sanitary law will lSad to a settlement of the whole question ; that it will settle itself ; that the evil would be scattered over a wider area, and all that is required are more backbone and energy. That is scattered all through his evidence, and I have no doubt you have noticed that ?—Ves. 5696. What I want to get at is, what do you yourself recommend? We put it to him that a very greatly increased staff, for one thing, would be necessary. Can you tell us your view?—That would be necessary undoubtedly; but the difficulty of abating ove-r-192 ROYAL COMMISSION" ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : JDr, D, L, eroding amongst aliens is this, that the larger number $jkoma$> settle for the first few years of their lives :in 4-— Stepney. When they arrive here they know nothing MHjS|a®4,9Q2. at all about santory laws, and they know nothing at about sanitation. They . have not the slightest idea, that there is a law to prevent overcrowding. We have; all the difficulty of enforcing these laws on people who know nothing at all abouv them. When they have settled here for; a few years, then they understand what it-m-eans, but then they scatter out to the neighbouring districts,. and their (places are taken by other aliens, and.; the same ^process will - have to be gone through again ; .so that no amount of vigilance will stop the evil and obliterate it altogether. We may improve matters as-' • we; go -along, but so long as thfes'e people come over th6y ; are bound to cause overcrowding, because they know nothing at all about the sanitary laws. I admit in a few years afterwards they do ; but -so long as they come over bhey have to be taught, and if, as ydu sug-^ gest, the system-is a continuous system, the' process is a continuous process. 5697. What staff do you at" present employ?—We •employ 18 sanitary inspectors, we employ seven clerks in the sanitary department, -besides about 18 or 20 men who act as disinfecting men and also assist the sanitary inspectors in measuring up the various houses. 5698; Have- you got a list of you? present sanitary establishment ?—I have not got it'with me. 5699. I should like to get that fact, because it is very important to know what staff you have got, and how much you would increase it by ?—I can give you some idea as to the staff. Taere are three sanitary inspectors, to each of whom we pay £250 a year; and .there are five, to each of whom we pay £200 a year. 5700. {Chairman.) Is this Stepney Borough Council? —Yes ; with regard to the remainder, that would ha- .10, their salaries start at £150 a year, rising by £10 year to £200. 5701. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is 18 inspectors? ...—Yes. Then we have one chief clerk, and his salary -is going up to £200 a year ; two clerks at £130, two ..at £100, and two at £60 a year. ..... 6702. Do any of these rise ?—Yes; the £60 rise up to £80 or £90—1 am not quite sure at present-—ana • the two at £130 go up to £150. 5703. {Chairman.) Can you give us the total of those < • .employed by the Stepney Borough Council for sanitary • purposes ? This is sanitary inspection, is it not ?— These are the sanitary officials in the Public Health ; Department; Public Health officials. 57Q4. What is about the annual sum ? \[Major Evans-Gordon,) There are three at £250 & • -year and five at £200 a year ; then .ten at, say, £175 a year ; one, say, at £180, two^.at £140, two at £110, find two at £70. t >"• Adjourned for a short time. <5705; '{Major Evans-Gordon,) You have probably noted in Dr. Shirley Murphy's evidence what he says vwitoh regard .to the administration of the sanitary laws. He says that a largely increased establishment would • j be necessary—he did not comanit himself to any figures, . but he said a large increase—and willingness to enforce,. ... and backbone, and so on, on the part of the local ... .authorities. He depended upon these matters for the : .solution of the overcrowding and the alien immigra- • tion problems. You have referred to the present staff, s fjuid we will get the complete figures of the staff, and •.the salaries and the expenses presently; but what : should you say would be the increase of a staff neces- sary if you were really to supervise these people "efficiently?—If what Dr. 'Shirley Murphy suggested was So that the death rate amongst artificially fed children is twice as great as those breast fed. In Limehouse there are a large number of factories, and married women are employed in them; their employ- ment is probably the cause of so many artificially fed babies. That is a difficulty which occurs in Lime- house, and that undoubtedly causes the high death rate amongst children, that they are brought up arti- ficially. The great difficulty with Jewish women is to persuade them to give up suckling their babies. 5788. (Lord Bothschild.) They will not bring up the- children artificially?—No. All children ought to be weaned at nine months, but the difficulty with Jewish women is to get them to wean their children at nine months. They go on suckling. 5789. (Chairman.) Do you use the words "Jew" and' " alien immigrant" as being the same thing there, or do you speak of Jewish women alone?—The Jewish race. 5790. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is it ra'cial ?—Yes. 5791. (Lord Rothschild.) How do these figures com- pare with the deaths in the Concentration Camps ?—I do< not know. During the siege of Paris the infant mortality was reduced to one-half of the average it had been for several years, although the ordinary death rate from sickness alone, apart from wounds, etc*, had doubled. This was due to the mothers being obliged to suckle the babies on account of the scarcity of milk and other food. The same tale is true of the Lan- cashire cotton famine as well. 5792. Now with regard to phthisis ?-- (Chairman.) Are we not getting a little away froim the question?—— (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to Dr. Shirley. Murphy's evidence, he stated the condition of these, people was good, and that the low death rate, especially, among children, and generally, was due to their tem- perate habits, and to the care that they bestowed upon their children, and to various other causes, showing that they were better than our own people. The poin'. I am getting from the witness is that there are other causes at work as well as those which Dr. Shirley Murphy gave. 5793. (Chairman.) I understand you to say that Jewish women do not wean their children at the time they ought to wean them?—The Jewish women suckle their babies. 5794. Longer than they ought to?—Yes, but the* English women do not suckle their children as long as- they ought to ; and of the two evils the Jewish women's* evil is the least, because the death rate is twice as great"MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 197 amongst artificially-fed children as amongst breast-fed children. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I do not see how that differs from Dr. Shirley Murphy's evidence. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The 'cause of that is that the English women are, many of them, em-ployed at fac- tories and works, and therefore have not an opportunity of nursing their babies to a large extent. {Chairman.) That may be so, but the result is the same. I think Dr. Shirley Murphy says—and this gentleman rather agrees with him in the result—that there is not so high a death rate among what you call the Jewish people, and I should call the immigrants, as there is among English women. The cause of that is immaterial. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I suibmit there is a certain amount of importance attaching to the cause of that. (Chairman.) By all means go on with the evidence if you think it is material. ' (Major Evans-Gordon.) The point I want to make is that it is not .solely due to these excellent habits, but there are other causes at work. 5795. (Chairman.) It is due to the fact that they suckle their children linger, and, as I understand, that is better than artificial feeding?—Yes, my Lord. fMajor Evans-Gordon.) There is an answer of Dr. Shirley Murphy's at Question 4884 that I should like to get a little further explanation about. "I think that very much of the difference between the two death rates of the Christian population and the alien popula- tion is that these people are. very much moire careful in the. way they live, and they are so much more abstemious, and people who live under those more favourable -circumstances do manifest less disadvantage, perliaps, from living in a crowded city." Then he went on with the subject of phthsis. (Chairman.) He did not touch this question of feed- ing the children. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, I want to point out what: the .exact explanation of these differences of haibits was. The point, generally speaking, that appears to anybody reading this evidence of Dr. Shirley Murphy's is that these people ^re in many ways, superior to our own in their habits, and .so on. That to a certain degree we adimit, and also their lives are more careful, and more sober, and more carefully looked after in many ways. 1 (Chairman.) Yes, and Dr. Thomas adds to Dr. Shirley' Murphy's list by, saying, yes, and the mothers are more'maternal by suckling their infants. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, but the point I want to make is that there are other causes at work as well. Jor instance, the suggestion which Dr. Thomas has given us accounts very much for the lowness of the death rate amongst these people. In addition to their better habits, this low death rate is accounted for by the fact of their being immigrants. 5796. What were you going to say about phthisis? We have been told that these people are immune from phthisis?—I think that is a fallacy. During the last year we had 626 deaths due to consumption, that is equal to a death rate of 2*09 per 1,000 of tiie population. That is, that out of every 1,000, two die from consump tion. The death rate in Limehouse, where thertj a*e not many Jews, was 2*1 per 1,000. In Mile End it A\as 1*6 per 1,000. In St. George's it was 2*1 per 1,000, and in Whitechapel it was at the rate of 2*6 per 1,000. So that though the general death rate in Whitechapel was lower than the rest of the district, practically the death rate from phthisis, or consumption, was very much greater. So that I do not think that Jews are immune from phthisis. 5797. (Mr. Vallance.) In that connection, would you mind just saying whether the cla^s of population is diff erent in . Whitechapel fr om what i t is in the other places ? For instance, is there, or is there not, a larger number of persons resorting to lorlging-houses and shelters there than elsewhere ?—Yes, there is. 5798. A larger proportion of whom would come in the last stage of sickness?—In those cases those that we have there are deducted from the district We deduct those who have died in the district belonging to another district, and add those who have died in out- lying institutions belonging to us, £u that as far as pos- sible we deduct that 5799. The number you deduct are those who are in j)r% jq ^ the infirmary or hospitals belonging to other districts ? Thomas. Yes. 10*^-w*2 5800. I am speaking of the larger number who do not ____ belong to other districts, because so many that are ---------- domiciled in lodging-houses and gravitate into the in- firmary there are not deducted?—That is the case in the other districts as well, but in spite of that, adding those, the same numbers that give a low death rate in Whitechapel give a high death rate for consumption. That is, if that is a reason why the death rate should be increased, the large number of common lodging- houses does not increase it. Whitechapel is still lower than St. George's or limehouse ; but, in spite of that, the death rate from consumption is increased. I quite agree there is a greater number of people dying homeless in Whitechapel than in any of the other three districts, but adding those in, the death rate is lower in Whitechapel than in 'St. George's or in Limehouse. 5801. (Lord Rothschild.) For consumption?—No, for general death rate, though the death rate for consump- tion is higher. The same number of people that give a low general death rate in Whitechapel, give a high death rate for consumption. 5802. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The only point I was making, here was to< show, and I think it is interesting to show, that these people are not practically immune from phthisis as was stated?—That is so. 5803. You have a long list of workshops which might be put upon the notes?—Yes. The list is as follows: — Workshops. The number of workshops in the district is at least 1,778, employing 15,317 Jews and .5,307 Christians. These do not include people working in factories and homeworkers. District. Number of workshops. Jews. Christians. Limehouse - 116 834 1,143 Mile End 583 3,771 1,480 St. George's 372 ' 2,806 540 Whitechapel 707 7,606 2,144 These do not include people working in factories and homeworkers. They consist of : — Tailoring......1,169 Mantle making - - 34 Cap making - - - - - 50 Ladies' tailoring and dress making - 88 Boot making......149 Brush making.....7 Furriers......45 Portmanteau making - 3 Cork cutting.....3 Purse making ----- 1 Underclothing making - 6 Dressing-gown making - 1 Bedding making.....1 Card box making - - - - 3 Cabinet making and upholstering - 56 Bag sorting......31 Sack tarpauling making - 3 Waterproof making - 10 Millinery and hat making 11 Embroidering and trimming making - 5 Bamboo works and stick making - 8 Basket making.....3 Picture frame making - 4 Packing case making - 2 Laundries..........13 Paper bag making.....2 Umbrella making ----- 1 Overmantel making - 1 Corset making.....2 Slipper making.....2 Shirt making.....4 Miscellaneous, which consist of :— - 60 Japanners, tin plate makers, cane workers, confer tioners, silk makers, perambulator makers, blind makers, foicy paper cutters, French polishing, wood carving:, metal workers, tea blenders, old clothes renovators, overmantel makers, tin makers,, orange-pee] driers, etc.198 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. D. L. .5804. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are these the returns *jfThomas. made under the Factory Act?—-The new Factory Act 16" June 1902 .^e worksbops under our control, and this is • • ' practically the result of a house to house visit by the sanitary inspector in order to get the register under the new Act up to date. 5805. (Chairman.) How do you get the distinction of religion? Is that returned?—Yes. 5806. Bo you get the distinction in nationality ?— The inspector calls on the occupier of the workshop, and he has to put up on the wall the number he em- ploys or that he can employ, and then the inspector asks him how many .Jews and how many Christians, and in the last case he asked the people how many were Jews and how many were Christians. 5807. Do you get any distinction] between English- born subjects and foreigners ?-—No. 5808. In this district there are a number of English born Jews?—Yes, but in workshops the greater per- centage are foreign Jews. 5809. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is to say, Jews who have not been naturalised ?—Not born in England. 5810. (Chairman.) As regards Jews and Christians, they seem to be one-fourth Christians and three-fourths Jews?—Yes. 5811. These details you have given are of the work- shops?—'Those are the workshops, not the individuals employed in the shops. 5812. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is this complete over the whole district ?—Yes, it is as complete as we can get it. 5813. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Does -this include all places where work is done at home ?—No, this does not include outworks or factories. 5814. "What is a workshop ?—A factory or place wh«re ' - mechanical power is used, and a workshop is where two or more persons are employed. / 5815. (Lord BothschUd.) A workshop with no me- chanical power?—Yes. 5816. (Chairman.) That is the definition given in the Factory and Workshops Act?—Yes, I think that is so. 5817. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) Generally speaking on this whole question, I understand you do not agree with Dr. Shirley Murphy, that what he recommends with regard to structure, administration, and enforce- ment of the sanitary law is a solution of this question? —It will never produce or reduce overcrowding to a minimum. We shall always have overcrowding with the present conditions. 5818. As long as the inflow continues ?—Yes, because even - without the inflow we should have a great diffi- culty in doing away with the overcrowding, and in addition to the present population and the natural in- crease of the population, the influx would, of course, make it worse ; it would accentuate the overcrowding— it is bound to do so; always adding to our difficulties. 5819. In spite of everything you can do; you have shown the Commission the law has been very actively administered, at all'events of late, in Stepney, but in spite of that you do not see daylight in the problem ?— The existing law will never do away with overcrowding altogether'. It will redud© it—there is no question •' about that. 5820. In face of that conclusion, do you recommend that any restrictive measure for putting a stop to the influx is the cure or not P—I should not go so far as that, but I would alter the stream from Stepney. As long' as it goes somewhere else I do not mind. 5821. (Chairman.) You dilute it if you scatter it?— As long as the stream is diverted for a few years, ana leaves us alone in Stepney, then • we have a greater chance of administering the law. Speaking from a sani- tary point of view, I do not care what happens then. 5822. (Major Evans-Gordon.) As it is going on at pre- sent your position is more or less !hopeless ?—I should not say that exactly. 5823. You are spending a great deal of money, and there has been an enormous amount of activity, and you have told us that you have no guarantee that the con- dition of these places is not as bad to-day as it was at the beginning of the year?—That is so, no doubt. 5824. In order to enforce the law you would have to keep real supervision over all these houses, and you would have to have an enormously increased staff?— If we should register them, yes. 5825. If you acted upon them at all. I do not under- stand where registration comes in. They are all regis- tered ?—No. 5826. Every house that takes in lodgers you are en- titled to deal with under the Act?—Yes, and if the remedy that you suggest is to register every house that can be registered, then I say that it would mean an enormous increase. 5827. It is not a question of registration at all. You are saying if your remedy is to take action with regard to every house that you can take action about, because my point is that these houses now and all. houses that take in lodgers in Stepney, come automatically under these rules, and there is a definition of the houses that are under the rules?—Yes. 5828. Consequently, if you take action on this you will require an enormously increased staff?—Yes, and that will not do away with overcrowding. 5829. Then you are hunting in a circle again, ferret- ing, as it were, in a rabbit warren—driving them out from one street into 'another?—Yes, because if we get rid of overcrowding in one- house, the people will simply go into another house in another district. 5830. That means an increase of staff ?—Yes. 5831. When you have got your increased staff, you have no guarantee that you are going to put an end to this terrible state of things?—You will not do away with overcrowding, and so long as you have the influx it will never be done away with. 5832. You may be active in this way, -and you may clear a street, and make it right to-day, and have it filled from abroad to-morrow?—That is so. 5833. (Lord BothschUd.) Before I ask you any ques- tions, it might be convenient if I referred to the Booth Street Buildings. I do not know if you are aware that the Jewish Board of Guardians issued a notice that they would not grant relief to any Jews living in the Booth Street Buildings; and that the owner, Mr. Harris, threatened them with an action for libel on account of that notice; and I believe that he based his action for libel and his immunity from this notice on the fact that the magistrates had never really thought his build- ings worthy of punishment. Now I am told that when he was summoned the other day for the twenty-second time there was only a fine of Is. 5d. inflicted upon him. Do you know these statements to be correct—I think Major Gordon knows they are correct. (Major Ewans-Gordon.) No doubt it is so, and it is a most monstrous state of things. (Witness.) £1 5s. were the costs. The magistiaies made an order to abate the nuisance, and allowed £1 5s. costs, it was not Is. 5d. fine. 5833-(l) (Lord BothschUd.) The costs were £1 5s. ?—- Yes, he did not impose a penalty. No penalty is ever asked for a nuisance. 5833-(2). That makes the case worse. The point I want to raise is, do> not you think the fact of the owners of such premises not being substantially punished is an inducement for them to go on keeping them in that bad condition ?—Undoubtedly. 5833-(3). (Chairman.) That isi the point you are making ?—Yes. 5833-(4). (Lord BothschUd.) If they were substantially punished there would be practically much less over- crowding and the immigrant, knowing that he could not come for fear of overcrowding,, would not come to the place?—There is no question if we could do that I quite agree with you, but under the bye-laws we can- not touch the owner. It is the keeper that we must prosecute. 5833-(5). I am supposing new laws to be passed that would touch him ?—If we could touch the owner and heavily fine him, no doubt he would be more careful to whom he let his house. 5833-(6). A few questions about the adulteration which you mentioned first. I do not know that the questionsMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 199 I ask you have anything to do with Jews or Christians. I want to know whether the articles which were adul- terated were adulterated by the shopkeeper who sold them or by the person from whom he bought them ?— The persons that we prosecuted were the shopkeepers, and unless you accuse me of doing an injustice, I must say that the shopkeepers were the persons who adulterated. 5833-(7). In the case of the butter, was the butter adulterated by a shopkeeper, or was it a similar case of, which there have been a great many lately, what they call milk-blended butter?—Some of the butters had un- doubtedly had water added, and I only know, in addi- tion to the large firm that adds milk to butter, Jewish shops that do add water to their butter. They put water .to their butter, or rather they do not do what they ought to do—they do not exaract the water. Thus they sell butter from which a sufficient amount of water has not been extracted. 5833-(8). That was not adulteration of butter; that was supplying a badly made article %—That was supply- ing an article not of the nature demanded. 5833-(9). 1 see that you have examined a great many shops, and you say that none were adulterated, but that samples of coffee bought from Jewish and! Christian shops, and you say that none were adulterated— the coffee is always genuine 1—Yes. 5833-(10). Is it grounds coffee?—Yes, not the berries. 5833-(ll). You say that although they adulterate j)r j) jJt other articles, according to your returns here no coffee, Thomas. which is the commonest article of consumption, is - adulterated, but pepper and mustard are adulterated1'/ 16 June 1902. —Yes. - 5833-(12). (Chairman.) Is coffee sacred?—I think a lot of that is due to this, that our men to a great extent are known in the district, and nearly every shop has a coffee grinding machine. If a man goes in (we always employ a man to buy the articles) and buys a quarter of a pound of coffee, they always—both Jews and Chris- tians—look upon him with a certain amount of sus- picion, and they grind the coffee and sell it freshly ground to him. 5833-(13). (Major Evcuns-Gordon.) Is coffee largely used in the neighbourhood ?—Oh, yes ; but it is not adulterated, because they are suspicious when a man comes in and buys coffee. They know he does it for an object, and there is not a shop that has not got a coffee grinding machine, and they sell it out of that, whereas with pepper and butter and mustard they have not got that remedy. They are bound to sell what they have got, whereas they can manufacture the coffee, or rather grind it. I think that is the only explanation I can give. 5833-(14). (Lord Bothschild.) I suppose the milk is only adulterated with water?—Yes, they do not put chalk into it, but they only add preservatives. FIFTEENTH DAY. Thursday, 19th June 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Mr. Henry Norman, m.p. Mr. William Yallance. Dr. B. R. Rygatb, < . 5834. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What are you?—I am Public Vaccinator to the district of St. George's-in-the- East, and I was Medical Officer of Health from 1883 to 1901, and I am also a Poor Law Medical Officer. 5835. You have had 20 years' experience in this dis- trict ?—-Yes. 5836. During that time you have noticed a great change in the character of the district ?—I have. 5837. Will you describe to us what the nature of the change is ?—The change has been for the mo&t part that houses which were formerly occupied by Christians are now kept by Jewish people. I think the trade among the Christian population has fallen off very much amongst retail shopkeepers, especially amongst grocers, butchers, tobacconists, and so on, and other changes I have noticed are that the houses which were occupied in former years by members of one family are now occu- ied by members of a good many families. Instead of aving one family, a house now has four or five families in it. 5838. Twenty years ago the district of St. George's was practically without an alien population ?—I should say so. 5839. Ten years ago the north-west part of St. George's had what percentage of foreigners and Jewish people ?— About 16 per cent. 5840. You would say that most of those people that you refer to here are alien incomers—new arrivals ?— Yes. 5841. Now the north-west part of St. George's is very largely alien population ?—That is so. 5842. Do you think that has been accompanied by a general deterioration in the district ?—Certainly de- lled : and Examined. _ Dr. B. R, Mygate. terioration in trade, I should say, amongst the Christian —— population. 19 Jan© 1902. 5843. Among the native population?—Yes. 5844. The better class people that used to reside there have gone ?—Yes, certainly. 5845. And the native population has been almost en- tirely displaced ?—Yes, and it continues to< be displaced. 5846. That is a process that is going on now?—Yes. 5847. Can you give us any figures with regard to this displacement?—STes, the western district of St. George's- in-the-East, where the Jewish people mostly live had, in 1891, a population of 12,000. The population in 1901 is about the same, although there has been a considerable number of houses pulled down for 'warehouses. 5848. The houses have diminished, and the population has remained stationary?—Yes. 5849. You infer from that that a larger number of people are squeezed into the houses ?—Yes, per house. 5850. (Chairman.) How many houses have been diminished ?—I could not tell you exactly. I should think about 50 or 60. 5851. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Not no re than that ?— No. 5852. (Chairman.) The population is the same ?—Yes. 5853. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In 1891 the English population was, how much ?—10,000. 5854. And the foreign population ?—The foreign popu- lation was 2,000. 5855. And now, in 1901?—Those figures are just re- versed. 5856. English 2,000 and foreign 10,000:* —Yes.200 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. B. E. ' •; Rygate. IS June 1902. 5857. Now, with regard to tradesmen, you say that their business has been damaged 'by this inflow ?—Yes. 5858. You infer from that that there is a tendency among these people to set up small shops aild deal with one another?—I should say so. 5859. Of course, with regard to butchers, and so on, they do, and more or less have to, deal with one an- other ?—Yes. 5860. Have you got specific instances ? Do you know people yourself who have been damaged in trade in any way?—Yes, I can give instances. There is one butcher's shop in Cannon Street Road, and a tobacco- nist's, and a chemist's, and a grocer's shop, all in Cannon Street Road. That is one of the main thorough- fares of the parish. 5861. This displacement of population is felt keenly among the shopkeepers?—Certainly. 5862. Do you say there are resentment and bitterness of feeling owing to their loss of business ?—Yes, I think there is. 5863. Now, with regard to the sanitary arrangements, what was your experience ? Has there been an alterar tion in that with regard to the staff, and so on ?—Yes, when I was first appointed Medical Officer of Health we only had one sanitary inspector, and when my office was abolished we had four sanitary inspectors. 5864. {Chairman.) When were you appointed ?—When I was first appointed—that was in 1883—there was one, and when my office was abolished we 'had four sanitary inspectors. 1 5865. What is the date of that ?—1901. 5866. For what area?—For the whole parish of St. George's-in-the-East. 5867. (Major Evans-Gordon.) St. George's is one of the four sanitary divisions of Stepney ?—Yes. 5868. There are four inspectors now?—I believe so. Of course, I do not know what the present borough council is doing. 5869. Do you know about the new bye-laws that have been brought in?—I do not. 5870. Under those bye-laws, which I anay tell you are practically coming into force in a month, at all events, the suggestion is that all rent limit should be abolished ? —Yes, I think that is a very necessary thing. 5871. You think that is a good thing?—Yes. 5872. Consequently all houses which take in lodgers will become liable to inspection?—Yes. 5873. Would that involve a further increase, in your opinion, of sanitary inspectors?—Yes. 5874. And staff?—Yes. 5875. And cause an additional burden on the rates ? —They would have to pay for it, of course. # 5876. And clerks and so on, and an additional estab- lishment generally?—Yes. 5877. With regard to the habits of these people that arrive, have they come under your notice on first arriving ?—Yes, many times. 5878. What should you say with regard to their habits then ?—Their ideas of sanitation are exceedingly limited when they first arrive in this country. They have a great tendency to. throw their rubbish < into ' the yards or into the street. They do not seem to cafe very rauc-i whether the filth is taken away from the dustbins, and so on. Refuse which should be burned is strewn about. 5879. And the surroundings are generally, "vou say, filthy?—At first. - 5880. They do not understand the sanitary, appli- ances?—No. . .. 5881. But after that there is a gradual improvement? —Yes, they improve very much. 5882. They are constantly flowing in from •abroad ?_ Yes.- Tii the north-western part of the parish I think we are almost completely filled up, but in the other parts of the parish the influx still continues. 5883. Do you say that the change in, population and displacement is moving steadily eastward ?^-Yes it is going that way. ' ... . , V • - 5884. Steadily eastward ?—Yes. 5885. Touching Limehouse now 2---Y<3$ ,v''" 5886. Consequently, whale those that have'been here a little do improve, the insanitary element is always being recruited from outside ?—Quite so. 5887. Consequently your educational and sanitary arrangements have no finality about theim ?—They have to be continued, of course. 5888. I see on your note something about under- ground residences. Have you got any [figures about then?—Yes, I just took out from my annual report a few figures. This, applies to the western district only. For the yeans 1898, 1899, and 1900 the figures were: " Underground rooms which came under notice, and which were remedied, 13, 23, and 301 respectively," showing a steady increase, and the overcrowded rooms far 1898 were 29, for 1890 they were 26, and for 1900 they were, 43. 5889. That was in the face of an appointment of another inspector?—Of a fourth inspector for nine months during the year 1900, by means of whose appoint- ment the number of houses to- be inspected, by the inspector of this district was diminished. Yet, notwith- standing the diminished number of houses under his cognisance, at the same time these nuisances increased. 5800. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You would expect the addi- tional inspector to increase the number of houses; the new inspector would find out more Chouses ?—The old inspector woruld have less work ito do, because he had ■more houses to visit formerly. 5891. But the thing would be done more completely ? —Perhaps that its a factor in the case. Tiben another point was the dirty and filthy floors, passages, (staircases, and w.c.'s cleansed during the same three years—45, 41, and 128 respectively. 5892. Would you isay generally that this influx haave all these rooms where lodgers are taken in measured ?—Yes. 5913. And their cubic capacity ascertained ?—Yes, and a more active enforcement of Section 94 of (the Public Health Act. That is to say, all houses that take in lodgers ought to be registered'. 5914. They^do come under /the new bye-laws. There is no rent limit, and they come 'automatically under the new bye-laws ?—iE was not aware of that. 591$. Having got these reforms, and an increased r staff of inspectors, do you think matters would be much improved ?—I -think the existing overcrowding would be -diminished very materially, certainly. 5916. You must always remember you have got to cope with the inflow from abroad?—Quite so; that is the difficulty. 5917. Does noiFthe fact of this constant inflow, which we 'know to be very large, discount very largely any '•steps you can take ?-^it adds to the difficulty of the situation undoubtedly. 5918.. You do not see any finality in what you are going to do?—No. You must increase the number of your staff, and diminish or abolish this overcrowding, so far - as I can see 5919. And keep up a constant hunt ?—Yes. As people . get to know they must not overcrowd, possibly the diffi- culties will decrease. We found in St. George's that when people found they must not do it, the number of -cases- which came under notice decreased. 5920. 'Gould you enforce (that now? What would happen to the people that you would displace?—They would have great difficulty in finding accommodation > elsewhere, I should say. 5921. You are in face of a practical difficulty on humane grounds, that you cannot drive these people into the -■ street ?—-Quite iso. 5922. And you have also got the fact that there are ; always numbers coming in ?—Yes. 5923. (So it makes the problem a very, very compli- *cated one to deal with?—Yes. There were numerous -cases of overcrowding which the inspectors found out by night visits, and when they came to reckon what the^ cubical capacity was, and .the number of chil- dren. We found (in numerous cases that there were two or three children too much—more than there should be. I remember the 'Committee hesitated to deal with these cases because the poor people could not afford to pay for two rooms, and if you insisted on them going out, Lord knows where they would go to. There was no ac- commodation for them found to be suffering from small- pox also. That is a specific and actual case. A very common thing is, a captain will report he has got a man with a cold. A cold, if I may explain, is very serious, because generally by cold they mean that there is a man on board who has had shivering rigors, and as rigors and shivering fits are the onset of nearly every form of infectious disease—in other words, it is the- onset of fever, therefore the mention of the word " cold " is always regarded with great suspicion. 6093. What about the case of lumbago you mention in your notes?—-A man is reported to be suffering from- lumbago. Lumbago is always very carefully investi- gated, because pain in the back is one of the early symptoms of small-pox. 6094. Then there is the case of the steamship " Georg " ?—The steamship " Georg " is a specific case in point. She left Liban with, I forget the number of immigrants on board. She was bound for London. 6095. That was on the 20th February, 189$ ?—Yes, on arrival the captain of the vessel had the usual ques- tions put to him, " Are you all well on board ? " He said, "Yes." "Have you had any sickness during the voyage?" "Well, I have had one child a little sick." "What is the matter with it?" "I do not know." I went on board the vessel, and, with the aid of a lantern, I got into the quarters where these people were herded togther. 6096. With a lantern in the daytime, do you mean ?—- No. This was at about 10 or 11 at night. After much difficulty I managed to discover the child who was re- ported sick, and who was covered with the rash of small- pox. I mustered everybody on board, and in the course of the examination found two other children also with the rash of small-pox upon them. These cases were landed at the 'hospital at Denton, where one of them 4 died. Every person on board and all the rest of the immigrants were landed at the hospital for the purpose of undergoing personal disinfection and vaccination. The women were separated from the men ; their clothes were taken from them and made up into bundles ,* they were wrapped in blankets, and a good fire was kept up, and their clothes and personal effects were taken a/way and disinfected by super-heated steam. In the mean- time all their effects had been landed from the vessel and went through the same process. Then the space occupied by them on board was merely a portion of the hold, which was boarded off from the ponies which formed part of the cargo. 6097. This was a sort of tween-decks part—part for ponies and part for these people ?—Yes. 6098. Was there any segregation of the sexes?—They were all together, men, women, and children. 6099. Very crowded ?—Yes, it was a space I should think about the size of this table round which we are sitting. If I remember rightly, I think there were between 50 and 60 of these people. 6100. Crowded into this space?—Yes. 6101. In this particular case there is an important point noted in your notes that this child was in an ad- vanced stage of smallpox ?—Yes. 6102. Therefore I take it that that small-pox could have been discovered at the port of embarkation ?_Un- doubtedly, if it had Been seen by any medical man. 6103. If there had been inspection at Libau that would have been seen?—Yes.206 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. H. 6104. Or if the captain of the ship had been under Williams4 any obligation not to bring infected persons, it would — have been stopped there ?—>1 will not say that, because 19 June 1902. I suppose there is a certain amount of obligation on - these people not to bring infected persons. 6105. Is there any law or are they bound by any re- striction whatever, because, if so, it is new to me?— Perhaps I am wrong in saying that, because I cannot refer you to any definite authority on it. 6106. It is a most interesting point ?—You would mean a legal obligation, and I think perhaps what I had in my mind was a moral obligation. 6107. It does not seem to work very strongly. The moral obligation is not working very powerfully at present ?—No. 6108. My point is that in America especially, the captains of the ships are under very strict specific obligations as to the people they take on board their ships?—So I understand. 6109. Had any provision of that kind existed there, small-pox cases would have been stopped in the filter that those specific conditions provided?—That is to say they would have been examined at the port of embarka- tion.. 6110. In their own interest, because the shipping people have to keep them on board, and take them back from America?—Yes. 6111. If they are suffering from any loathsome disease—that is the wording of the American Act?— Yes. 6112. You have seen numbers of these people arriving. "What is their condition on board the ships ?—-Do you mean their condition as to health or personal cleanliness ? 6113. Generally speaking?—As to their health, I should say it was fairly good. The number of cases of infectious diseases introduced that I have detected among these people has not been numerous, speaking as a whole. I cannot say that much infectious disease has come to this country among these people. 6114. So far as you know ?—Yes. 6115. Will you tell us about their other conditions, as to their cleanliness and so forth ?—In 1892 and 1893 their condition was extremely offensive. 6116. On all sliips ?—On practically all ships. Their clothing was dirty, and the smell was almost unbear- able ; it was such a smell that you would not like to travel in the same 'bus with these persons ; it was a peculiar smell—a smell that I have never been able quite to find anything to compare with ; the nearest approach to a comparison is the smell of an acetelyne lamp which has been blown out. It somewhat xe- sembles that. 6117. That was in 1892 and 1893?—Yes. 6,118. The wording of the Order is,: " If a vessel comes from a place infected with cholera, yellow fever, or plague, or has on board passengers in a filthy or un- wholesome condition." Have you got that power now? —-That power still exists. v6119. So that a filthy and unwholesome condition gives you access and inspection, and so forth?-—I have been advised that these expressions only apply to the risk of the importation, of cholera. 6120. Specifically to cholera?—Specifically to cholera, and it was on the interpretation put on that expression that the supervision and medical inspection of aliens was discontinued in about 1895 or 1896. (Chairman.) Are you speaking now of the individual inspection of each person or the general inspection of the ship and all on board ? \ (Major Evans-Gordon.) Individual and general? '6121. (Chairman.) By Section 110 of the Public Health Act, 1891, it is enacted : " For the purposes of this Act .any vessel lying in any river or other water within the district of a sanitary authority shall (subject to the provisions of this Act with respect to the port sanitary authority of the Port of London) be subject to the, jurisdiction of that authority in the same manner? as if it were a house within such district." Then turning to tlie house power section (1) It shall be the duty of every sanitary authority to cause to be made from time to time inspection of their district, with a view to asceiv tain what nuisances exist calling for abatement under the powers of this Act, and to enforce the provisions of this Act for the purpose of abating the same, and other- wise to put in force the powers vested in them relating to public health and local government^ so as to secure the proper sanitary condition of all premises within their district." Those are the sections?—Yes, my Lord. 6122. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You have got full power to generalise, but are those powers well known ? -—They are well known, as a rule, but vessels go into dock, and they come up and go into dock at the top of high water, and their passengers may leave that ship within an hour or two hours. (Chairman.) The words are "lying in any water or river within the district." 6123. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Does it apply to a ship in transition—a ship passing by?—I am not prepared to say. 6124. Have you ever tried it ?—I have done it. 6125. I suppose the captain is not bound to let you in ?—He would probably not stop his ship, and, as I say, that is a weak point, the absence of power of detention of a vessel in motion. 6126. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The section only says "lying"?—Yes. 6127. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In practice, in spite of those powers that Lord James has read out, they go on with their voyage, and they come alongside the docks, and they put their passengers ashore before you can do anything'*—Yes, if I was not at the spot at the time to get on board. 6128. {1 Sir Kenelm Digby.) I want to see whether there is a power of inspection while the ship is still on its journey and in motion, or whether the power of in- spection/ attaches before the ship is actually stationary and "lying"?—It is quite clear what we are talking about now does "not relate to vessels coming from infected ports, it is a general power. 6129. (Major Evans-Gordon.) To come back to this point, you had in those cholera days a power which extended to passengers in a filthy and unwholesome condition ?—Exactly. 6130. You continued to inspect those people for some time after the epidemic of cholera had ceased?—Yes, exactly. (Chairman.) We must notice this that it does not seem to give power to inspect with regard to in- dividuals ; but it is to inspect as regards the condition of all premises within their district, which is a very different thing. i 6131. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, these powers are not sufficient, but this order relates to people in a filthy and unwholesome condition, which power; you continued to exercise for some time after the special necessity had ceased. That power was a sufficient and good power?—It was. 6132. (Chairman.) Where do you get the power to inspect a dirty individual ?—It is an order of the Local Government Board. ^ 6133. Under what Act is that—that is not an infectious disease. What we are upon is the arrival of these filthy people coming in ; what power have you to inspect those persons?—That which Major Gordon has referred to was an order under Regulations made by the Local Government Board under the Public Health Act. 6134. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is there power under the Public Health Act to make regulations ?—-Yes, there is. (Chairman.) That is as to premises—not as to in- dividuals. (Major Evans-Gordon.) My point is that these regulations were made with that object during the cholera epidemic, and. that they were continued to be acted on after the cholera had ceased, and that they were dropped subsequently. 6135. (Chairman.) I think they were made alia inter• alia, compared with the state of filth or poverty,, they were made for cholera and infectious diseases ?-— They were ; they were made entirely for cholera. 6136. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Biit you went on using that, power, principally resting on the provision with regard to the filthy and dirty condition?—Yes. 6137. If you had continued to exercise that particu- lar power with regard to the filthy and unwholesomeMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 207 condition, that would have been an advantage. It was dropped anyhow?—It was. 6138. Why was it dropped ?—-It was dropped because I was advised that I had no power to act under those regulations, inasmuch as cholera did not exist. 6139. {Chairman.) Supposing you went on board a vessel and found no infectious disease, but found people covered with vermin, and with scarcely any clothes on ; could you deal with that state of things at all ?—No. 6140. {Major Evans-Gordon.) What I am anxious to get at, is this, I am of opinion, and I think some of the other members of the Commission are of opinion, that it would be a very desirable thing that we should have information with regard really to the. physical condi- tion of these people ; but, as I understand you at pre- sent, that would be impossible to collect ?—Unless I gave merely a few examples which I have seen, which it would be perhaps not safe to generalise upon. In the case of this vessel, the " Georg," coming from Libau, when I took these people into the hospital and stripped them of their clothes and wrapped a blanket around them, and proceeded to vaccinate them, I had an excellent opportunity of judging of their state of personal cleanliness. 6141. What opinion did you arrive at then ?—Their state of personal cleanliness, that is to say, their skin, was fairly clean. I have no fault to find with that, but practically every person had body lice upon them ; and the worst example of the lot was a lady who was travelling first-class in'the vessel. I remember she was clothed in a green velvet sort of cloak, and I rather hesitated about submitting her to this indignity, or what persons might call an indignity, but as it was necessary to have all their effects disinfected she went through the same treatment as the rest, and, to my astonishment, she had more lice on her than anyone else. 6142. (Chairman.) Were those lice picked up on board the vessel, or how would they be obtained?— No, they would be on their person. They would not be picked up on the vessel. They are bodv lice. It is a thing that.you see in London. May I mention other cases? I was house physician at St. Bartholomew's for a year, and it was my duty there to see the people who attended in the mornings, and there were a number of people who came there then, and you would be sur- prised at the number of instances I found. 6143. English or foreigners?—Both. You will find them1 on English and foreigners, too. 6144. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Anyhow, with regard to these people on that one ship that you had the opportunity of inspecting, it was a peculiar fact that they were all infected with body lice?—Yes . 6145. {Chairman.) Is it not a fact that it is an in herent disease to have these animals about you,, and not acquired from a mere want of cleanliness?—?No, my impression is that it occurs in people who are not accustomed to take bath# and to change their cloth, ing sufficiently. I am speaking without the book; but probably the information could be obtained if you inquired about the state of our soldiers in South Africa. 6146. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is quite ture. It has never happened to me personally, but I know it does happen in campaigns, that if you are a long time without your clothes being taken off and not washing, these things will, I might almost say, automatically appear ?—Yes. 6147. {Chairman.) These people were a long time crossing Europe, and they are in the ship for a long time. How long would it take for these vermin to appear ?—I'have nothing to form an opinion upon. I have no experimental evidence or observations. 6148. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand that in 1892, or after that cholera epidemic, the condition oI German ships was altered ?—Very much. 6149. And very much improved?—Yery much im- proved. I was inclined to attribute that to the result of the supervision which was exercised at Gravesen^ by the medical officers. 6150. Not from any measures taken over here. It was not initiated here?—I think it probably all re-acted. The captains of the vessels, finding that people were detained on board, because they were filthy and un- wholesome, on the day before arrival in port would have all these people on the deck, and have them all t)r. if. washed. That was one result. Williarhs* 6151. They prepared them for landing?—Yes. 6152. That was one result of an efficient medical ex- amination here at the port ?-—1That is my opinion. 6153. {Chairman.) That was voluntary washing ; you could not enforce it ?—It was quite a voluntary thing, and it was done in the interests of the captain. The captain did not want his ship detained, or have these people kept on board longer than he could help, if he could get them out of it by having these people washed. ,6154. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say that he washed them, and took steps to prepare them for landing?'— Yes. 6155. (Chairman.) Are there canvas baths fitted up, or how do they get these people subjected to the wash- ing?—I should think they would put half a dozen buckets on the deck, and give them a piece of soap, and a towel, and the chief mate probably stood by and saw them wash. That only refers to the face and hands I think. 6156. {Major Evans-Gordon.) It does not go below the waistcoat ?—I do not think so. 6157. {Chairman.) This would not affect these para- sites?—No. 6158. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These measures in the port do reflect on the ship ?—They hark back. 6159. Anyhow, the German ships have been better since ?—Yes. 6160. But the Libau ships have not been affected ?— After the cholera epidemic many of these immigrants coming from Russia into Germany were subjected to re- strictions at the frontier, where they were kept in a sort of modified quarantine, and were washed, and the German Government then, I think, instituted regula- tions for the carrying of these people, and certain it is that the condition of these people on German and Dutch boats has considerably improved. 6161. And is better now than the Libau boats ?—Yes, certainly. 6162. Libau stands out as abominable?—I will not use the word " abominable." 6163. But bad?—It is bad in comparison with the others. 6164. You do not think, albeit the action here affects the German ships, that it affects the Libau ships, though the captain of the Libau boat does not want his boat stopped ?—He used to have them washed. There is even an improvement in the people on the Libau ships. (Chairman.) I do not understand how ships being allowed to go on, or being stopped, could depend on the face and hands of the people being clean. 6165. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I imagine this, that if these people are in an extremely filthy and dirty con- dition personally that when the medical officer comes on board and sees them like that it leads him to suspect there may be infectious disease, and it may lead to the ship being stopped, and some obstruction being put in the way of the captain, and to avoid that the captain fakes them up in the best way he can, and says, " Here are my passengers, they are clean, and all right" ?:—• That is it. (Chairman.) If he is telling a lie I should have thought the fact that the faces and hands are clean would not have told the doctor anything. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Lice is not an exotic disease. 6166. (Chairman.) But the fact of having clean hands and faces does not contradict the existence of exotic disease?—But clean clothes would. 6167. But you gave us the fact that washing that did not go beyond the hands and face?—There has been a great improvement in the condition also of their cloth- in or The clothing has also improved. In the old days their clothes were shining with, grease, as though they had wiped their hands and their mouths upon them, and worn them for years. 6168. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Now that is better?— That is very much better. One of the first things to im- prove was the condition of the clothing. 6169. You attribute that to two things, activity here, which, alas, is no longer prominent ?—Yes. 19 June 1902*208 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr., H. 6170. And the German regulations?—Yes. Williams 6171. But the activity has now been reduced, and the 19 June 1902 ^J^au boats without regulations are still in a very un- ' ' desirable condition?—Yes. 6172. (Chairman.) How wasi the improvement in the clothing effected? Did they make them start with better clothing?—I think they made them start with better clothing. They supervised them at the port of embarkation. 6173.. Is Libau the principal Russian port from which they come?—That is the chief port from which these immigrants come. 6174. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Now, tell us about the Libau ships ?—The German ships are constructed to carry these passengers, that is to say, they have separate accommodation for the sexes, and for the married couples, but the Libau ships have no provision whatever for carrying these people. There is the hold of the vessel, and as far as I can judge an agent in Libau says he wants so many cubic feet, so he takes a certain part of it, and he crowds into this space as many people as he can sell tickets to. These places are part of the hold. Some of them are totally unventilated ; some of them are absolutely dark. There is no provision for ventila- tion. There are simply two wooden shelves, put all the way round with uprights, and beds are put in there, and on these the people sleep at night, men, women and children indiscriminately. I imagine the different families keep together, but there is no pro- vision whatever for decency. There is no- provision for washing except a bucket, and the sanitary conveniences are only two temporary structures on deck, which are used by either sex. 6175. And' rarely used ?—They are used a great deal. 6176. (Chairman.) Your report is very full, and gives us most useful information. If the Commissioners see no objection you might prove it and let it go upon the notes ?—This is a portion of a report submitted by me on June 3rd, 1902, to the Port Sanitary Committee of the Corporation of London: "Foreign Immigrants.— This matter has been brought before your Worshipful Committee on several previous occasions, and I would like to draw attention again to the subject, with a view of some action being taken which may tend to the abatement of what is undoubtedly a serious nuisance, and in some respects a menace to the public health. The class of immigrants to which I refer are those "brought to this country from Russia at a low rate, and they are herded together—men, women and children— in a space which is not limited by any regard for health or decency. It is, of course, a fact that the standard of comfort with these people is'much lower than obtains even amongst the lowest in this country. Therefore, it -can be readily understood that in the small space which is allowed to these people on board ship, the conditions referred to are aggravated to a degree which can be better imagined than described. There is no separation of sexes, the whole of the immigrants occupying the one space by day, and -ait night sleeping on on a common bench or shelf, which occupies one portion of the space. The temporary closets provided on deck are used indiscriminately by all, and in the case of the vessels which I mention below the foulness arising from the condition of the people and their surroundings was made worse by the drainage of urine, etc., from the * horses which occupied adjoining parts of the hold. £L) On the 14th May the ss. " Riberhuus," of Esbjerg, from Libau, arrived at Gravesend with 133 Russian immigrants, made up of 91 adults and 42 children. The vessel left Libau on the 11th May. The immigrants were carried in the upper after 'tween decks, except seven, who were berthed in the saloon. This space had a total cubic capacity of 7,621 feet, which provided 72*6 cubic feet per head. The total floor space was 433 square feet, which allowed 4*12 square feet per head. The only ven- tilation provided was by four side ports, which were, of course, closed, by the after hatchway, and by way of the bunkers. Access to these quarters was afforded by the bunker hatchway on each side. The space was lighted by deck lights. The vessel carried 272 horses. Fifty of these were carried immediately below the immi- grants' quarters, and the emanations from the animals and ordure had free access to the quarters by means of the hatchways. Ninety horses were carried in the upper 'tween decks forward of the space occupied by the immigrants, and liquid, consisting principally of urine drainage from these animals, was allowed to run down the intermediate lobbies into the immigrants' quarters. (2) On the 21st May the ss. " Hengest," of Aarhuus, from Libau, arrived at Gravesend with 171 Russian immi- grants. The vessel left Libau 011 the 17th May. The immigrants were carried in the after main 'tween decks in a space with a total capacity of 7,172*9 cubic feet, giving 50'16 cubic feet per head only. The total floor space measured 393*3 square feet, an area of 2*3 square feet only per head being available. I would here call attention to the fact that the cubic space and floor space in the case of this vessel w£s even less than that provided in the case of the ss. " Riberhuus," previously mentioned. The quarters occupied by the immigrants were in a filthy condition, the floors being strewn with all kinds of refuse, and offensive liquid from the horses carried on the same deck had leaked through into these quarters. No attempt had been made at cleansing this space since the vessel had left Libau. Two temporary closets were provided, and both were used indiscrimi- nately by the sexes. The only ventilation provided was by means of the bunker hatchways, and by two 12-inch ventilators, one of which was without a cowl, and closed. The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, provides that steerage emigrants carried on the lower deck shall have not less than 18 clear superficial feet of deck space, and that if the height 'tween decks is less than 7 feet, or if the apertures for admitting light and air, exclusive of side scuttles, are less in size than in the proportion of 3 square feet to every 100 square feet of deck for each steerage adult emigrant, each such emigrant shall be entitled to 25 square feet; that all unmarried male steerage emigrants of 14 years or upwards shall be berthed in a compartment divided off from the space occupied by other steerage passengers ; and further, that not more than one steerage passenger, except married couples, females, or children, shall at any time occupy the same berth ; that with regard to privies separate provisions shall be made for (a) males, (b) females and children, and that all privies and w.c.'s shall be firmly constructed,, and maintained in a clean/1 y and) service- able condition throughout the voyage. The master of the vessel is liable for infringements of these provisions to penalties varying from1 £20 to £500. With reference to horses, the Act provides that none shall be carried below any deck on which emigrants are carried, nor in any adjoining compartment unless separated by water- tight bulkheads, and in vessels of less than 500 tons not more than two head of large cattle shall be carried, and m larger vessels one head of large cattle for every additional 200 tons; that the number of steerage pas- sengers shall not exceed the proportion of 15 to every 100 tons registered tonnage. The registered tonnage of the "Riberhuus" and "Hengest" is 340 and 145 respec- tively, so that had they been British vessels they could only have carried 51 and 62 emigrants. I am of opinion that the limitations laid down by this Act express a minimum incapable of reduction without prejudice to health. I think it might be reasonably urged that limi- tations of a similar kind should be enforced on foreign vessels carrying immigrants, and, if your Committee approves, I would suggest that this be brought to the notice of the Board of Trade and the Russian and Danish Governments. Wi^h regard to the nuisance which un doubtedly has existed, and still exists, in every case of arrival of these immigrants, and for which the masters of the vessels, and the owners, by whose default clearly the nuisance arises, are liable, I wish to suggest to your worshipful Committee the advisability, as soon as vessels in a similar condition to those mentioned enters the Port of London, of serving a statutory nuisance notice on the master while within the jurisdiction of your authority, not only to abate the existing nuisance, but to prevent its recurrence. Then upon any subsequent arrival of the vessel, should a recurrence of the nuisance be found, legal proceedings might be taken for non-compliance with the notice. I would recommend that this course of action be referred to the City Solicitor for his opinio*! thereon. 6177. Your penultimate paragraph has raised some veiT grave questions for consideration with regard to our jurisdiction over foreign vessels ?—Yes. 6178. (Major jEvans-Gordon.) On these Libau ships the conditions are extremely bad, and you recommend that they should be altered P—Certainly, that they should be brought into line with English legislation on the subject. 6179. If you were to take the next lot arriving from Libau you would expect to find the same conditions ?_ I should expect to find them berthed under the sameMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 209 conditions. The only improvement probably would be the difference in number. 6180. And lice, most probably ?—I did not examine for lioe, but I managed in just visiting one of these vessels, to come away a.nd catch eight fleas in the next ten minutes. 6181. They are infested with fleas ?—Yes, they are full of fleas, and my inspector also, who was with me, was infested with fleas. 6182. I do not think I was far out in using the word "abominable"? They are dreadful conditions, cer- tainly, and we would all agree that it should be put a stop to ?—Yes. 6183. These people coming off the ship in that condi- tion and under those conditions mix in with the people of the locality P-—Yesthose who are going to stay in this country I presume would do so. ! 6184. Though they may not bring specific diseases, they would not be an advantage, you would think ?—I do not think they are an advantage. 6185. Can you judge of their physique ? Are they well fed, or what is the general appearance of these people?—They seem to be people who have been over- worked and underfed, and as though they had been harassed a great deal. They always have a worried look. There was an absence of gaiety among them; they all seemed sullen and subdued, but, speaking generally, apart from thinness, their physique was not unfavourable. 6186. You would not say their physique was ruined in any way ?-—No, I think not, and I think probably you might assume that it is a sort of survival of the fittest, and it is some of the best of those who come over. 6187. You- would expect to find worse conditions where they come from ?—I do not know. 6188. And* are the Polish people more robust ?—The Pole always had the same sad look, but he was not so gaunt or so withered. He was more sleek, speaking generally, from my general impression derived from see- ing a number of these people. 6189. What about the arrangements that have been made with the Jewish shelter with regard to the re- ception of these people ?—I will lead up to that. Many of these people who came over in 1892 and 1893 at the time cholera existed in Russia, on arrival in this country gave the addresses where they were going to. These were notified to the medical officers of health of the respective districts, who returned a large proportion of them, saying, " These people have not arrived here, and I cannot trace them." That pointed to the fact that the addresses given by these people were inaccurate, amd, therefore, it became necssary to detain these people on board the ships, in order to verify their ad- dresses. There is power for that under the Local Government Board Order, that these people shall re- main on -board the ship until the Medical Officer of Health is' satisfied as to* the correctness of their names and addresses. We verified them by sending a letter to the Medical Officer of Health for the district in which the address w^s 'situated, and asked him to verify that, and the directions to verify would be: " Were these people known there, or were they expected to arrive there." If they replied " Yes," they, were immediately liberated to go> to that address. But, as I say, that took some time, and in the meanwhile, these people being detained on board the vessel^ the captain would not stay in this country for their convenience, and he took some of them -back to Hamburg with him. We naturally thought that that was a hardship on the people, and that it was incumbent on us to take every precaution to carry out these regulations of the Local Government Board, and I believe the Jewish Shelter authorities approached Dr. Oollingridge on the subject, the result being that these people were detained, a notice was given to the master informing him that these people must be kept on board, and that they were not to be liberated except by the permission of an officer of , the,, authority. This was merely for the purpose of control. On the arrival of the vessel in the dock no one.was allowed to land until the. representative of the J ewish Shelter came on board and one of the inspectors of the Port Sanitary Authority attended and handed them over personally to the repre- senta|)iye the Jewish Shelter. They were taken to the Jewish shelter by him, and the arrangement was that Shelter authorities would personally verify the addresses given, and that any persons leaving the 6144, shelter for a given address would be conducted there by Br. H. their officers, and that a list of all persons leaving the Williams. shelter, would be sent daily to Dr. Collmgridge at — Greenwich, and also it would be sent to the Medical ^ June 1902. Officer of Health of the district to which they were . going. This looked very satisfactory upon paper, but practically it did not work at all satisfactorily. The Port Sanitary Authority carried out their part of it. They were handed over to the Jewish shelter, but there was great difficulty in getting the returns and in getting the correct notifications, and we were not satisfied that the people were personally conducted to the addresses given. 6190. You carried out your part, and they did not carry out theirs ?—That was the position of affairs. 6191. That resulted in a lot of correspondence?— There was a lot of correspondence, all of the same tenor, pointing out that they were not carrying out their part. 6192. I have here an extract from a letter of March 30th, 1893, from the Medical Officer of Health of the Port of London to Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter: " Kindly note that in no single instance up to the pre- sent time has your arrangement been carried out, namely, of notifying the names and addresses of people leaving the shelter." Did that arrangement only take place in vessels where illness occurred?—No, this oc- curred in vessels in which the immigrants were perfectly healthy, and found so on examination at Gravesend during the cholera time. 6193. Has that arrangement come to an end now ?- * It came to an end in 1895 and 1896. 6194. Of course, there would be great difficulty lis verifying their addresses, because many of these people haye not got addresses, to begin with ?—But then thej must be going somewhere, and they should know where they are going. They do not come over to this country, as a rule, without having some friends here. I should think in the majority of instances they would have- friends in this country. 6195. (Chairman.) But they do not know where tho residence is ?—-But they stop at the J ewish shelter. 6196. You said they were going somewhere—that did not mean the Jewish shelter?—No, but they had an idea of going somewhere, and they could remain in the shelter. It is most satisfactory on paper that they should remain at the shelter until they know definitely where they are going to, and when they go to that place they should be personally attended by the officers of the shelter. 6197. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And. the Medical Officer informed?—And the Medical Officer informed. 6198. (Chairman.) They should be accompanied by the representative of the Jewish shelter and an officer?— And the fact of their departure reported to the Medical Officer of the port, and also of the district to which they are going. 6199. But you would not get the ultimate address by that means—you would only know they were going to the shelter?—No; it would be when they were leaving; the shelter for their ultimate destination. 6200. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The second stage ?—Yes.. 6201. When you refer to overcrowding, do you mean- overcrowding on the ship?—Yes, on these Libau ships. 6201*. Do you take proceedings ?—We have no power to take proceedings against these foreign vessels. 6202. Have you made representations to anybody?" —'Representations have been made on several occasions- to the Danish Consul, and in some instances (I am: speaking of three or four years ago now) proceedings- were taken by the Danish authorities in Copenhagen against these masters of ships, and they were fined for overcrowding, but I believe on appeal that decision was upset. I think the line of argument taken was, that as these vessels were bound from Libau to London and did not touch at Copenhagen, therefore the Copenhagen authorities had no power to enforce penalties. I believe, speaking roughly, that is the reason. 6202*. (Chmrman.) Liban is a Russian port?—Yes. 6203. Then the Danish jurisdiction would not come in, would it ?—No; that is where the conviction was upset on appeal. 6204. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to these people, you say an arrangement was made with regard D D210 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dr. H. to the separation of the infected from healthy people. Williams. In a cholera-infected ship where would you send them ?— — They would all have to he disinfected first, and then 19 June,1902. they would he sent there. 6205. They would be sent to the shelter?—Yes. 6206. Disinfected and sent there ?—The ultimate pro- cedure would »be exactly the same, there being no quar- antine in this country. 6207. But all that arrangement is terminated now? —Exactly. The only supervision of these immigrants now is by Mr. Hawkey, an officer of His Majesty's Cus- toms, who collects certain information. 6208. What have you to suggest? You know these people are coming in large numbers and streaming over here, especially from Libau. What do you suggest should be done in the way of remedies ?—I should suggest first that these people should be medically in- spected at the port of departure, in order to ensure that there is no one embarkiiig with an actual infectious disease existing. Secondly, that these vessels bringing them over should conform to the English law with regard to accommodation, etc. 6209. The boats are foreign, and the peoplo are foreign?—Yes. 6210. {Chairman.) Inspected at the port of embarka- tion first, and secondly, they should conform to the English regulations ?—That the boats, with regard to the accommodation for these passengers, should con- form to the Merchant Shipping Act. 6211. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You would appiv Hl0 Merchant Shipping Act to these vessels if possible ?— Exactly. 6212. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would it not be possible to say to the shipper of these people, " If you bring people in these conditions, we will not allow you to land them ? "—You would have to give us power before we could say that. 6213. That would bo a remedy, and would probably { stop it?—I gather from Lord James that we have no \ power of entry on board these ships with regard to in- ( fectious diseases, but I think that we should have power of entry on all vessels for the detection of infectious diseases, such powers to include power to detain the vessel for the purpose of inspection. 6214. To stop her ?—Yes. That is the keystone of the whole question. 6215. That is your weakness now?—Yes. 6216. Because she runs up into the dock and away the people go ashore, and you have no* hold over them vat all ?—Quite so. I believe that is the difficulty which Mr. Hawkey finds with regard to his examination and • questions to these people. 6217. Supposing an English boat arrived, one under -your jurisdiction, with people in these conditions, what would you do ?—I should report the facts to the Board ^ of Trade, the German vessels coming from Hamburg 1—No, I am speaking entirely of vessels from Libau. I have no unfavourable criticisms to bring forward in respect of German vessels. 6232. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You, of course, look upon the whole thing from a sanitary point of view?— Absolutely. I have nothing to do with political or social questions. 6233. Your views would be in sympathy with those of the local sanitary authorities of the districts where these people come ? — My sympathies are in a large manner with the people who' are brought under these conditions. I would like to see them brought under better conditions. All port sanitary authorities find a difficulty in raising the standard of comfort of the sea- faring population—that is. to- say, people who are carried on ships, especially the crews, and when shipowners bring people under these conditions, which absolutely defy the English law, it rather tends to set the clock back. 6234. Exactly, tliose remarks apply to the sanitary authorities on shore?—Exactly. 6235. They are trying to raise the sanitary standard and condition of the people in their districts ?—Yes. 6236. Would you* say that they are handicapped in that by the reception of people of this lower standard ? —I certainly think so, because these people's standard of sanitation is of the most primitive description. One can only liken them ffco children in that respect. If you give them a plate with food on it, anything they cannot eat they prefer to throw on the floor, and they prefer to wipe their hands on their clothes, and if you go into their quarters on the arrival of these vessels you see the whole floor covered with crusts of bread, back- bones of fish, onions, and vegetables which they have thrown down and trodden in all over the place. 6237. And that people should come with these habits, either off a ship or into a neighbourhood, is a very seriousMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 211 thing to consider, too ?—I think it has a tendency to lower the standard of sanitation in the district to which they go. 6238. About these restrictions of health, generally there is no restriction in England at all except for these exotic diseases, as they are called?—None whatever. 6239. We have ihad xt .stated here by one medical officer that he would not interfere in any way with diseases other than exotic diseases ?—I have expressed an opinion to my committee that all infectious diseases coming in on vessels, the dangerous infectious un- orders, I would specially emphasise smallpox be asked to read his own statement as a basis for our subsequent questions. The following statement by Dr. Herzl was put in and read: — I am an Austrian subject, and seven years ago, when I was living in Paris, I was so impressed with the state of Jewry throughout Europe that I turned my attention to the Jewish question and published a pamphlet which I called '* A Jewish State." I may say that it was nob my original intention to publish the pamphlet or to take part in a political movement. But, after placing before a number of influential J ews my views upon the J ewish question, and finding that they were utterly oblivious of the danger which I then foresaw—that they could not see the large black cloud gathering in the East—I published the pamphlet which resulted in the establish- ment of the Zionist movement. The first Zionist con- gress was held at Basle, Switzerland, in 1897, and I was elected president. I have been re-elected to that office at every subsequent congress. My position as head of the Zionist movement brings me into close touch with Jews living in all countries throughout the world, and I am therefore cognisant of the state of affairs as affect- ing Jewry both locally and generally. On the whole, I regret to say, the state of Jewry is worse to-day than it was seven years ago when I published my pamphlet. To go no further, there had not then arisen the necessity— actual or supposed—for instituting an Alien Immigration Commission in England. If I may without presumption say so, I foresaw that the Jewish difficulty would arise in this country. In "A Jewish State55 (published in 1896)1 said : " The Jewish question exists wherever Jews live in perceptible numbers. Where it does not exist it is carried by Jews in the course of their migrations. We naturally move to those places where we are not persecuted, and there our presence produces persecution. This is the case in every country, and will remain so even in those most highly civilised, France itself being no exception, till the Jewish question finds a solution on a 6144 political basis. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying anti-Semitism into England; they have already intro- duced it into America." The fact that there is now for the first time since Cromwell a perceptible number of our people in England is the true cause of this Commission being called together. Those who deny this are, I feel quite certain, perfectly sincere. When they cry out about alien immigration they are quite unconscious of the true cause of their complaint ; they feel the pain, and they point to the place which hurts—the cause of the pain is to be found somewhere of which they know nothing. But I think it right to say that the mere establishment of this Commission has created a diffi- culty, in itself no small one; for, as a result, the Commission must either recommend restrictive legisla- tion or not. If the former, and its recommendations are given effect to by Parliament, then England will break away from the great principle of free asylum to the oppressed which hitherto has been its glory, although the endeavour to keep out the poor oppressed Jews can- not, I believe, be successful. But if restrictive legisla- tion is not recommended, the mere fact of this Com- mission having sat will give an impetus to immigration to England—it will have formed an additional notifi- cation of the desirability of England as a place for emigration to. Because I cannot regard the question before the Commission as a small one in comparison—a question, for instance, of local housing or local over- crowding. As to these 1 know little so far as they affect the districts of the East End of London. The most I know is what I have read of the evidence placed before the Commission; and that evidence tells me quite plainly that questions of overcrowding and of housing are at most incidental, that the forces at work are the identical forces at work against our people elsewhere— the forces which I have denominated " Forces of common trade jealousy, of inherited prejudice and of pretended self-defence." These forces are at work here, and, mask it ir any way you choose, the cry for restricting alien immigration arises from the presence here of a per- ceptible number of Jews, and the desire that that number shall not be perceptibly increased. You havy had witnesses before you who have explained to you the* reasons which induce Jews from Eastern Europe to come d d 2 Dr. T. Herzl ' July 1902.212 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: to this country and to America. Permit me to say that Ty fferzl. it is not by any means chiefly material advantages that draw them hither—moral advantages play the larger 7 July 1902. part— a desire for the freedom of life and soul which ' the Jew cannot under present conditions know in Eastern Europe. Whether the immigration is in itself desirable for this country or not it is not for me to say. I am at best a partial witness, and just because they possess distinct virtues, such as remarkable industry, sobriety, and thrift, these immigrants are possibly no moire welcome (than if they had vices unalloyed. And! so far as Eastern Europe is concerned:, which, because it contains so large a portion of .the whole of Jewry, regu- lates tine whole .of Jewry, things, as I have said, are be- coming worse and worse day by day. I need only point to Rowmania as a very present instance of themethod by which Jews are forced from their homes—even after they have seirved in the army there, there are still aliens in the land of their birth. For the Commission must understand that Jews more than other peoples—cer- tainly not less-^-are attached to their homes.- This fact makes their lot the more tragic. In mediaeval German the word "Elend" means both misery and exile, and the two have ever been synonymous for the Jew; so you must not imagine that the Jew has rushed from the land of his birth immediately conditions were made un- favourable for him, and that you here in England have got to the end of the question. Indeed, I must con- gratulate this country upon instituting an inquiry into it at what hereafter will, I have no tLoubt, be regarded as almost its inception. The perceptible number of Jews of which I have spoken is most likely to increase, and to increase from immigration under present circumstances, because I notice that even Mr. Arnold White would not try to exclude those immigrants who are victims of per- secution. That limitation, if adopted—and it is im- possible to think of England doing otherwise—leaves free entry for our people from Eastern Europe. I read the evidence tendered to the Commission by Mr. Llewellyn Smith, in which he stated that as many as 58,000 Jews migrated to the United States last year. The numbers to me are appalling, because I can form an estimate of rthe misery and the wrong that has driven these people rtforth from the places in which they were born, always -remembering that the self-imposed sentence of exile is -jnot with the Jews as with those of other nationalities, for a term of years—with the Jews it is a life sentence. r'That a serious pressure already exists in England, the fact of your Commission sitting is full proof. It matters not whether the pressure that is felt ought to be felt— c if it ought not, that makes it none the less severe. And, . from what I know, I am certain that only a big measure will meet what must become a big question. The ques- tion will naturally always be a bigger question for Jews than for those among whom they live, however big it . may be for the latter ; and the solution of the problem is primarily for Jews themselves—others can only help. I „ see that a proposal to remedy the evil complained of has been made for disseminating or dispersing our people by inducing them to leave the East End of London and settle in other parts of England. This appears to me at jbesi a most shortsighted means of meeting the trouble. T agree with what Mr. Greenberg has written upon this ,point in the current number of the Jewish Year Book, that if to-day there is an evil in one spot, to-morrow, -i his plan being successful, the evil would be in many gJ>ots. But above all I object to any tacit arrangement whereby only a certain number of our people, and no sinore—for that is what it comes to—shall live in any t>given district. That Jews themselves should be devising ijneans for excluding their own people from whole di*« tricts is to my mind monstrous. In principle they are pursuing the same policy as those who favour a restrict Hon of alien immigration. I cannot say I am altogether surprised at the despair of which this is indicative, which at the very outset of the Jewish difficulty here has settled upon the Jewish community in England. I have warned English Jews of their unpreparedness to meet a gtate of affairs they hoped could never arise, in speech pfter speech that I have made—and, for the matter of that, others of our school of thought—have made in England, What surprises me is the depth of the despaif, i?he extent of umpreparedness, which can suggest only the senseless proposal of dissemination as a remedy foi the evils which are fast gathering round Jews here in England as they have gathered round thecm elsewhere. The fact is that this scheme is conceived in the same spirit—-the same antiquated spirit as what is known as Jewish charity. Jewish charity is still run upon lines which in the Middle Ages* were ample; alteration of con- ditions has entirely outgrown it. In old-fashioned times , Jewish charity in various localities was instituted largely *"0 relieve the needs of those travelling from other 'ocaliti.es who had been rendered paupers by persecution, and the motive spring was to a considerable extent the uncertainty as to how soon the charity giver of to-day might become the beggar of to-morrow. There was a kin- ship m misfortune; if not actual, then prospective. But in those days the space that had to be traversed by the wandering Jew was but a few miles—a walking distance, perhaps—and the relief required was what was necessary to carry him a short way. To-day, however, the means of communication have outgrown the charitable system, so that London charity, for instance, is responsible for the moving on of Jews who wish to migrate from Russia to America. And to such a point of perplexity has the old system reached that it cannot any longer always employ itself to relieve the people. Thus°it comes about that money intended to release Jews from their wi etched state has been used to send them back into it. This was notably the case with the Roumanian refugees who came to England and found their only reception in the one recipe "Repatriation"—repatria- tion to a place where the repatriatees will arrive again as aliens. This is what I have meant when I have said that Jewish charity is bankrupt. Its business is to move Jews from worse to better conditions—when it has to move them from better to worse it has broken down and railed. Then there is the proposal of assimilation, and, of course, those who put forward assimilation as a solution of the Jewish question do not mean merely an apish assimilation of slavish and often vulgar imitation, ,u 7x?ean' suPPose> assimilation by intermarriage, so that the small stream of our race may be merged and lost m the broad stream of peoples amongst whom they live.■Well, as to intermarriage, there are two sides to the question. Suppose the Jews were willing —a very large supposition — how is it to be imagined that people who will not put up with us as neighbours will become allied to us as members of our families. I am, of course, speaking of intermar- ri3f xn_aS a ^or^"w^8 not in a few instances here and there, for -those take place now. Bo .that prior to in- termarriage taking place the whole status of the Jew would have to be -different—'ait least throughout the world he would have to be regarded with feelings far different from those which are now general. And when that came about, when the world came to appreciate the Jew at his true worth to1 a sufficient extent as to desire intermarriage with him, then the world would probably recognise his value as a, separate entity, and give us our right 'to exist as a separate people, according us our rightful place amongst the peoples of the world. We should either intermarry before the world was ready for us, and thus court disaster by a revulsion against our entering Gentile circles, or we should do so when the world was ready for us, and then there would be not only no necessity, but we should be destroying a people the world had come to recognise, to respect, and to desire, to^seo maintained. I am, you will understand, arguing this matter for the moment on the presumption that our people were willing to intermarry. But there is nothing the great bulk and body of our people hold to more ^ strongly than the sentiment as to marriage. Inter- marriage is not regarded with aversion—even by the most orthodox—so long as the person contracting a marriage with a Jew or a Jewess becomes also a Jew or a Jewess. There remains, then, the solution I fore- shadowed in my . pamphlet, "A Jewish State." Naturally what I wrote then I would not entirely write now in the same language or in detail. When I wrote it no congress of Jews had been held ; there have now been five such congresses. I was writing therefore with- out any of the knowledge I have since obtained from comxrse with Jews, nor did I then write ;n any official capacity. But the main principle holds good—the solution of the Jewish difficulty is the recognition of Jews as a people, and the finding by them of a legally recognised home, to which Jews in those parts of the world in which they are oppressed would naturally migrate, for they would arrive there as citizens just be- cause they are JeaVs, and not as aliens. This would mean the diverting of the stream of emigration from this country and from America, where so soon as they form a perceptible number they become a trouble and a burden to a land where the true interest would be served by accommodating as many as possible. Given to Jews their rightful position as a people, I am convinced they would develop a distinct Jewish cult—national charac- teristics and national aspirations—which would make for the progress of mankind. I perhaps have no right to direct the attention of the Commission to this branch of the subject, which, it may ibe, lies outside entirely ofMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 213 the reference for its inquiry. But I feel very strongly that nothing will meet the problem the Commission is called upon to investigate and advise upon except a ■diverting of the stream of migration that is bound to go on with increasing force from Eastern Europe. The Jews of Eastern Europe cannot stay where they are*— where are they to go ? If you find they are not wanted here, then some place must be found to which they con migrate without by that migration raising the problems thiat confront theim 'here. Tlhese (problems will not arise if a home be found them which will be legally recognised as Jewish. And I do submit that whether the Commission can directly influence that solution of the problem or no, they must not omit to consider it and give it the high, -value of their opinion. So far as Jews are concerned, I have no hesitation in saying that the solution is practicable and feasible, and is the one above all others which they would welcome and which would obtain the most earnest co-operation of those wh^se hopeless misery is the cause of the troubles with which they and you are confronted. (IkLT. Norman.) You are aware, are you. not, that this Commission does not regard the question of alien immigration into this country as only a Jewish question ?—Yes, but after having read the evidence with a certain amount of attention, I fonnd that the Com- mission de'alt principally with the Jewish immigration ; there was very little queistion about the immigration of other nationalities. I found that it was principally &n inquiry about the Jewish immigration. 6245. My point is that your communication would convey to anyone who was not otherwise informed that this whole question is a question of Jew and Christian, whereas the Commission, I think, regards it as an economic question. I wanted to be sure that in any- thing you might say afterwards yon understood that we -deal not only with Jews, but with Italians and any class of immigrants, just as we should with Chinese if they were here?—I see that it is principally an economic question, because of the tendency to« inquire about virtues. When you deal with alien immigrants you ask whether these people have virtues or vices. I under- vstand your inquiry is not only from the. moral stand- point, but principally from the economic standpoint; otherwise there would have been more examination in respect to certain classes of immigrants, which are massed in several points of London, and whose mtoral standing is rather lower—I do not wish to say anything against another group of men, but whose moral .stand- ing is rather lower than that of the Jewisih, working men in the East End. T!he enquiry about virtues shows that it is an economic question, because a competitor wiho is more virtuous is more dangerous. 6246. As to whether this immigration is a good thing for us or not, you express no opinion?—I am not an Englishman, but if I were an Englishman I should not find industrious, sober, and thrifty people undesirable immigrants. If I were an Englishman I should try to find out the right place for these forces which are coming, and strengthening, in my opinion, the power of the land. I should try to find out the right place for them. That would be my point. I could not find them undesirable if investigations proved that they are sober, thrifty, and industrious. 6247. Your reply takes me rather further than I meant to go at this moment. I will pass to another point: You say that the number of Jews coming will necessarily, in your opinion, increase from immigra- tion ?—Yes. 6248. We must expect that?—Yes. 6249- You lay emphasis here upon the moral forces which bring these Jewish immigrants, but you do not, of course, overlook the fact that there are great material forces which bring them as well; the fact that they find it easier to get on and prosper here and make money in competition plays at least as large a part as the moral forces in bringing them over ?—An immi- grant Jew is in a condition in which he is not able to foresee what will happen ten years after when he comes to a higher social scale where he will make greater enterprises. At the moment of his immigration he thinks only of not starving ; that is his only thought at that moment. I think there is less reflection in it than you think; that is to say, it is It must be in a manner acceptable to them ?— Yes ; and to bring them under happier conditions. 6269. But at any rate it cannot be dealt with, in your opinion, at the place itself where the trouble and burden occurs ; I gather that is your opinion ?—Yes. 6270. It must be dealt with far away where the trouble begins, where, according to your own simile, the wounded man lies?—Yes. 6271. Therefore it follows logically from that that you would regard any regulations about overcrowding, sanitary regulations, and remedies of a purely local character-As insufficient. 6272. (Chairman.) As insufficient to meet what?_To meet the difficulty by measures against overcrowding. 6273-4. Do you mean the difficulty throughout Europe ?-- (Mr Norman.) No, in East London ; to meet the diffi- culty of the trouble and the burden. The Chairman desires me to ask you whether you mean the trouble and burden on the J ewish race, or the trouble and burden on the community here ?—On the general community. 6275. In England?—Yes. 6276. You mean the local burden?—I think if you could succeed in bringing a remedy as to this local question you would cure only a symptom, and not the illness. I do not believe you could find efficacious* measures against iliis overcrowding ; I do not believe it. 6277. When ycu spoke of "when there becomes a, perceptible number of these immigrants here, then the trouble and burden arises," what you had in mind was- the trouble and burden in the community in which they found themselves P (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I did not understand that. (Mr. Norman.) I will refer to the passage ; it is in the quotation on the first page : " This would mean the diverting of the stream of * immigration from this country and America where so soon as they form a per- ceptible number they become a trouble and a burden " ; that means they become a trouble and a burden here. 6278. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I understand the point of his evidence to be that in order to deal satisfactorily with the Jewish problem it is desirable that they shall be diverted elsewhere than to countries where they will be aliens. I 'thought he was at no time speaking of the; trouble and burden here, because he had no experience of it ?—I said that I knew about that only what I learn through the evidence given before this Commission. The local question and the London question you know far better than I do. 6279. (Mr. Norman.) As regards the details, but as- regards the general effect, I presume you judge it from the results?—I must confess I think it is a mere commonplace, because it is the most natural thing in the world, that if you get too many shoemakers in one- street against the last shoemaker there will be a riot perhaps. One cannot tell in what state of civilisa- tion they will be. 6280. You have said that this trouble and burden •must be dealt with at its source, and not at the place where the burden is felt?—Yes. 6281. If you look at it for a moment from a purely English point of view, whatever the distant cure is,, from an English point of view it can only be cured by- taking some step which will 'stop the influx of these immigrants into the country where they cause the trouble and the burden ?—That is the question before you to decide ; whether you will be English or inhumanr if you will allow me to say so> in my free speaking way ; whether you will protect your native labour which pre- tends to be damaged, or whether you will close your doors on. a very miserable and very pitiable group of men. 6282. (Chairman.) Does not the Witness accept the old Latin saying, that you must go to the fountain to find the evil, melius est petere fontes quam sectari rivulos ?—Yes. 6283. (Mr. Norman.) You would accept the Chair- man's words, that to cure the evil you must go to the fountain ?—'Certainly. 6284. You point out that the fact of this Commis- sion having sat makes it imperative in our own interest that something should 'be done?—Yes. 6285. Having begun, in self defence we must go on? —In self defence, or by way of help ; and I think the best self defence would be a generous and broad-minded measure, which perhaps I could put, in one way or another, before you for consideration. 6286. Apart from the actual cure which might be adopted, you hold that the Commission, having sat,, is, as it were, a great advertisement of this country to- these immigrants everywhere; and, if nothing is done, their numbers will increase even more rapidly than before?—I think in every case when| a commission comes together, they must try to get at -a result. If you ask me whether you can do any efficacious work as regards the local question, I give you my opinion that I think it is -not possible. 6287. I only desire to get your meaning quite clearly upon this one point; I will put it in this, way: Sup- posing it were desirable for us to do something, havingMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 215 sat now, it becomes much more desirable than ever ?— Certainly. 6288. On the whole, yon think it a good thing, and you congratulate us that the Commission has sat?— Yes, because in other countries, even in free America, they simply closed the door. I think it is a good thing that you should first try to understand the situation, and you will do so. 6289. You understand, of course, that it is not from any lack of sympathy that I am not putting questions of a different kind to you. I have been as brief as possible, turning my attention only to these very material points ?—Certainly. 6290. (Major Evans Gordon.) With regard to persecu- tion, I want to get clearly from you what ground there is for saying that the immigration of Jews to this country is solely or mainly due to persecution?—Do you .ajsk if I mean that the immigration to this country is solely due to persecution? 629il. No; but the tendency of your statement is that these are a persecuted people, and they conse- quently come here, being driven from their own homes ; what ground have you for stating that their coming here is due to persecution, either solely or mainly?—I do not think it is due 'solely to persecution. All these questions touch general human questions. I think a man has a natural tendency to remain on his -soil if he has a soil ; there may be exceptions among some young people, adventurers and merchants dis- covering new parts of the world, and so on ; but the average person has rather a tendency to remain on his soil. 1 cannot say it is solely persecution, because amongst those coming here there are adventurers and young people who like to know the world ; just like your young English people go to India, China, and so on. But I think among the family fathers, the patres familias, coming here, they only come when they are in very deep depression. When a man has his1 fixed home, and his family also, he does liot like to change his place of domicile. 6292. Have yt>u ever been within the Russian Pale? —No, but I get from there every day 30 or 40 letters. 6293. What I want to get at actually is the nature of the persecution. You say that part of it, at all events, is due to persecution, and part to the smrit of adventure and the desire to move onwards. I want to know what the persecution actually consists of?—It is .an 'economic boycott. Is that persecution ? Cer- tainly. Then they are persecuted. This persecution has many forms : In one place it is administrative, and in another place it is legal, persecution. You find local persecution in one town, and general persecution in another, but everywhere the Jew is the scapegoat, the whipping boy ; and one day he tries no longer to be a scapegoat, and he seeks other skies. 6294. Do you know whether it is the fact- that the Russian-Jewish 'Committee or the chairman of it$ Mr. N._ F. Joseph, has stated that not one in ten of the ap- plicants for relief here even .alleged that they were per- secuted?—You have definite outbreaks and persecutions which come occasionally, and then you have the far- reaching pressure every day. A man who does not know what it is to be a free mam says : " No, I am not persecuted," because he bias not got his head wounded. He understands by " persecution" something which we should find very dreadful. 6295. Do you understand that it is the economic conditions of the 16 provinces of the Pale of Russia which constitute the persecution, or is it a consequence of bygone persecution when the Jews in Russia were concentrated in the 16 provinces ?—I do not quite understand your question. 6296. Is it the economic condition of the Pale which exists now which you define as persecution ?—It is a permanent state of misery, and, beyond that, you have the fact that they cannot better their condition ; they cannot go into another town to find work ; they are under a constant pressure. 6297. (Chairman.) Do you trace that misery existing now to present causes, or to causes arising in the past ? —To both ; the present is a consequence of the (Major Evans-Gordon.) But the economic con- ditions of overcrowding and so forth where there is great pressure, is a' form of persecution which exists . anywhere where people are overcrowded ?—Yes, but add to that, that the Jew is not sure of his life to- morrow, and if his house is burnt and his windows are smashed, that is nothing ; he lives in a perpetual fear with the madness of persecution. 6299. There is another cause at work for these people coming here, and I have questioned great numbers of these people, and have been among them a great deal, and I find that there is a tendency to send for their relations to come over here?—If you had a friend and vou came here under a better climate and better con- ditions, you would write to your friend : " My friend, here I am more happy than I was yesterday." But if you mean definitely sending for him, I am not aware of it. 6300. That tendency is at work which brings a num- ber of people here?—Yes, I think so. 6301. The one attracts the other?—Yes ; but that is rather a primitive means of announcing a thing nowa- days. To-day we have newspapers, and all these people read the newspapers, and they know that you have such and such conditions of life here. It is not necessary that each man must inquire for himself. 6302. You would say that to send these people back to their own country is persecution?—It would be cruel. 6303. It is a cruel thing to do, in your opinion ?— Yes. 6304. As you have stated in your statement, you know that considerable numbers of them are sent back here by the Jewish community ?—I do not think that was done by mere cruelty, but because they were so un- prepared ; they never believed the information we had given to us in the first Congress in Basle in 1897. Per- haps you will allow me to give you a very interesting statement. We got from Roumania alone 5,258 petitions of 37,043 people ; they asked us to help them as they were starving in 1897 ; and only in 1900 began this im- migration of starving people—after three years;; their cry for need was three years old when they started. The charity bodies of the Jewish community did not take that warning seriously ; they were' wholly unpre- pared, and they could not help them. That was the reason. And if my greatest foes did it, I would not attribute it to cruelty. As I have said, the Jewish com- munity here could not help themselves ; they were perplexed. 6305. If the English Government had done that it would have been called restriction?—That is a ques- tion I myself put to these people. But they had the excuse of not being able to help having not the means of a largei empire. They had an excuse, which would not hold with the English Government. 6306. To pursue that point further with regard to persecution.^ You say in your statement: "Where it does not exist it is carried by Jews in the course of their migration. We naturally move to those places where we are not persecuted, and there our presence produces persecution." You say the presence of Jews in large numbers produces persecution. What evidence have you that there is any tendency to persecution here ?—-Persecution must be taken here as a word of school language, if I may say so. It includes the several forms of animosity against Jews. I cannot write books and books about it, but I must employ a general term for it, and I included in it even tihe slight anti-Jewish feeling in society where it exists. Persecu- tion may be a smile in Society and a coup de poing in Stepney. 6307. You say it produces persecution, but we will modify ^ that, and say it produces anti-Jewish feeling or anti-Jewish action. Have you any evidence -that there is any anti-Jewish feeling or action here or that their presence has produced this ?—I take it out of the evidence given by your witnesses before this Commis- sion. 630'8. Would you call a wish to exclude these people or to restrict the number of them that come here per- secution ?—It depends on the way you take it. Ther is a loyal self defence, and you may defend yourself if a rightful way and even in a human way. I think you. Major Gordon, said that there is a difficulty on humane grounds. There is a difficulty. 6309. Has anyone that you have seen in this con- troversy or agitation since it has been going on ever suggested the withdrawal of a single privilege enjoyed by the Jews in England to-day?—I have not heard it. 6310. Is not what we believe and I believe to be the Dr. T. Herzl. 7 July 1902.216 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : DVt necessity for preventing an unlimited increase of the 1. Herzl. poorest part of our population perfectly compatible with the fullest religious and social freedom 7 July 1902. equality of the Jews?—'I understand your point. ~~~ 6311. Is it not compatible with the perfect freedom of the Jews ?—I do not wish to be the 'Crown witness for anything against Jews. 6312. Are not the two positions! perfectly compatible ? —That is a question of execution. 6313. I put it to you that the Jewish community themselves- have been hitherto the only restrictionists —-it is they who have sent the Jewish people back to these countries, as you describe them, from better con- ditions to worse, but you cannot say that the Jewish community are anti-semitic in any way ?—'Certain things you may do with a member of your family which would be an offence if done by a stranger. 6314. That is a refinement. My point is that nobody has ever hitherto sought or suggested that a single privilege enjoyed by the Jews in this country to-day should be even modified or removed, and I say that that position, which is any position as one of the leaders in this controversy, is perfectly compatible with the desire not to allow too many of them to come in. {Chairman.) Not only too many of them, but too many of the alien immigrants of all kinds. 6315. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I was coming to that. It is a perfectly reasonable position on my part. You opened yoiir statement by saying that you understood this to be a Jewish question entirely, but I would remind you in that respect that we are only unfor- tunately at the outset of our inquiry, and we have been dealing with the East End particularly, where most of the people who come do happen to be Jews, but that does not say that we are not going to inquire equally closely into the coming in of people of all other nation- alities. Do not take it, therefore, as a Jewish ques- tion ?—You will have a witnesis, wtho can give you de- tails concerning those people. 6316. I do not want you to go away thinking we are merely approaching this question from a Jewish point of view. Now, in another part of your evidence, you say, in quoting your article, that our people are acting on pretended self-defence ?—Yes. 6317. Why do you say pretended self-defence ?—Be- cause self-defence is always a question of judgment. I do not know when the moment of self-defence has arrived for you, but I know when it has arrived for me. Therefore, self-defence is always, pretended. (5318. I raitheir take exception to the word " pre- tended" self-defence?—Always pretended, but in one oa.se justified, 'and in the other not. 6319. Surely, men who are driven out from their homes by people wtho come from, abroad, and are com- peted with in their employments, and so forth, have got a right to defend them'sel've's ?—I confess I under- stand that feeling. 6320. There is no pretence whatever with regard to their hardships?. 6321. (Mr. Norman.) I think you use the word in the sense of the French word " pretendre " ?—Yes. 6322. Without a moral reflection on anything, be- cause with us the word "pretend" implies rather an offence?—No; I would not put it offensively in the evidence I give to you. 6323. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Whether it is what you say, "pretendre," or "pretence," there is, as a mat- ter of fact, and must be, a real source of grievance when people crowdl into one district and turn others out ?— I think that is a question which answers itself. 6324. You regard this rightly, no doubt, from a purely Jewish point of view—from the point of view of your own people?—'Yes. 6325. But we English people,, have ,we not a duty to our own people, as well .as to the poor and oppressed of foreign countries?—No* douibt. 6326. Would not a cry for1 restriction equally arise frpm the presence either of a perceptible number of any foreigners, particularly non-assimilating foreigners —say, Chinese—or the inflow of a foreign people into a country? Will that not lead to a cry for restriction irrespective of their being Jew1®, or whatever they are ? —But what makes the question so painful is that all the other people have homes to which they can go back md the Jews have not. 6327. But that, surely, is somewhat discounted by the fact that some hundreds of them are sent back to- and these non-existing homes by the Jewish people every year ?—It was a great fault, in my opinion, to do that,, and the penalty is already being reaped—the punish- ment to the community for doing it; because I under- stand the inference, you intend to draw out of that,, and what you, Major Gordon, or you other gentlemen will say* is, if our Jewish community did that, what- shall we do from our point of view ? 6328. You say in another part of your evidence that these people cannot live in the places that they come from, and. where are they to go? I maintain that the fact of their being sent back there and sent back to places as is repeatedly pointed out in the Jewish reports where persecution is non-existent, and where they can live, proves that there are places where they can live, because they do live there, and they are- living there now ?—There are several views with regard to the conditions under which a man can live. 6329. Another point in that connection I want to* point out is that I am assured (I feel sure with truth) that many of these people who go back actually apply to be sent back?—That brings us to the question of the schnorrers and the wandering of the perambulating Jews from shelter to shelter. 6330. How is that compatible with what you have. said—that a man asks to go back to persecution?— Certainly I shall not say that all these Jews are angels or gentlemen. They seek to journey if they can any- where where there is a charity shelter, and they make the trip. 6331. We will leave that point. What I want to get from you distinctly is that these people who come here and whom we are talking of now at all events are your own people, and in need,- as you say,, of an asylum somewhere, which ds the chief thing—'the principal consideration?—Yes. 6332. All other considerations are secondary to that in your eyes ?—Yes. 6333. Having those feelings for your own people, do- you deny us the right to consider our own people too >-r- You do not want me to answer that question ?, (Chairman.) Whatever the witness says I do not think the right will be denied to us. (Witness.) It is a rhetorical question. 6334. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There has been a great deal said about anti-Jewish feeling, a thing I have per- sonally resented in the strongest way, but what I wank to get from you as a great Jewish authority is, if the Jewish people are paramount to you and your ways. of thinking, may not our own people be paramount to us without our being charged with anti-Jewish feeling? —-It is the same question. 6335. I understand that you are in conflict, that there is a divergence of opinion between your opinion and a certain portion at all events of the Anglicised Jewish opinion here?—Yes. 6336. On what points do you differ ?—They believe in assimilation. 6337. Kindly explain what you mean by your re- ference to " the black cloud gathering in the East" ?— Since I wrote that book the state' of Jewry is worse now than it was. Since I wrote that we have had the Rou . manian emigration question. I am afraid we shall have one in Galicia, and there are far more Jews there. There are about 700,000 Jews there in deep misery—very deep misery—and when I read the evidence here about the housing conditions in East London, I say that the worst of it is a paradise, when compared with the conditions under which the Galioian Jews sometimes live. I have heard of cases where they have in a small room of a few square metres four families, and in every corner there is a family. 6338. The people come from conditions unfortunately worse than the worst conditions in London ?—I do not know the worst conditions in London, but I think they are under very bad conditions where they are. 6339. You do not give any opinion as to whether it is to the advantage or disadvantage of this country to import people largely who habitually live under those conditions ?—I have given you already my opinion in an answer to Mr. Norman, saying that I should in every case look at the immigration of a working man, and of a man able to rise economically—I should always see in that an advantage for the whole community ; not forMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 217 his neighbours perhaps, but certainly for the general community, because he is a means whereby taxes can be levied. 6340. Do you think that the Jewish difficulty has actually arisen in this country?—I think the diffi- culty is here since you are obliged to discuss it. You must have a reason. 6341. What do you anticipate would be the result if things are left as they are1—if there is a policy of laissez faired—I should not like to make any prophecy. 6342. ou see from the black cloud that is rising in the East and from other influences at work, that this question is merely at its inception here?—Yes. 6343.- That we have to face a very big thing?—Yes, I cannot but so look at the question. 6344. All the tendencies are to drive more and more people to this country ?—Yes, I think so. 6345. In Lord Salisbury's words, as you close one channel the flow will come all the stronger down the one that is remaining open ?—You cannot close it with- out changing all the conditions of your land—Russia is a closed land, bat England is not. 6346. Unlike the heads of the separate Jewish com- munities settled in various countries, you view these Jewish questions from the point of view of nationalism? —Yes. 6347. That is the point of difference between you and others?—Yes- 6348. Is, in your opinion, Jewish nationalism binding on those Jews who share your views?—In what sense binding ? • 6349. Loyalty to the Jewish nation and loyalty to the Jewish idea ?—Yes. (Chairman.) Binding upon whom, do you mean equally with him ? 6350. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Binding on those who share Dr. Herzl's views of Jewish nationalism. My first question was that unlike the many heads of the separate Jewish communities all over Europe, you view these questions from the point of view of Jewish nationalism?—Yes. (Lord Bothschild.) Would not the best thing be to ask Dr. Herzl what his views are about a Jewish nation? 6351. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would you say briefly what.your views are about Jewish nationalism?—I will give you my definition of a nation, and you can add on the adjective " Jewish." A nation is, in my mind, a historical group of men of a recognisable cohesion, which is held together by a common enemy—that is in my .view a nation. Then if you add to that the word " Jewish " you have what I understand to be the Jewish nation. 6352. What would, be the common enemy in this case?—The anti-Semite. 6353. Under these circumstances; with those people who hold the views with regard, to the Jewish nation that you hold, is complete assimilation with the English community possible to those who are politically loyal to the Jewish state ?—Oh, certainly. I think assimila- tion is quite possible. I do not say that it is always desirable, but it is quite possible. You have the his- torical .example of the Huguenots of France going to Germany, and invited after the persecution of the Pro- testants in France, and you have all the great families who are perfect Germans, Then , you have General Zurlinden, which is a German name, but who is a General. - 6354. I want to point out to yoru. in regard to the Huguenots that there is no analogy at all between the Huguenots and the people with whom we are dealing. The Huguenots were essentially an intermarrying people, and were speedily absorbed by marriage into the general population. In this case it is not so in any shape or form?—Then it is proved that they will not assimilate wholly. 6355. It does not seem to me to matter whether the objection to intermarriage comes from the Gentile side or the Jewish side, the result remains exactly the same, that there is not intermarriage, or in very few instances is there intermarriage ; and consequently no real assimilation is possible. Do you think that the relief and hospitality to the oppressed Jews of Rou- mania and the Russian Poles involve any possible 6144 danger to the English working classes by competition ani so forth ?—No. I do not think that. Why should charity do harm to others? 6356. I mean the charity that brings the people here ? —We have spoken already about that question. 6357. We have also spoken about dissemination, you do not believe in that either?—(No. 6358. You say that a Jewish question exists wherever Jews live in perceptible numbers?—-In the same way that you hiarve an Irish question .where Irish people are in great numbers. 6359. And, therefore, you would not disseminate?— No. 6360. And you say further, that the plan of dissemi- nation carries with it the idea of exclusion in detail. If you disseminate you say to them in practice, " So many of you may live here, and so many may live there." That is exclusion of them in detail?—Yes. 6361. So that exclusion in detail involves the exclu- sion in gross. If you say : " You may not live here," to one lot, and then to another lot, " You may not live there," then it amounts to the same thing?—It is contrary to the principle of free moving. 6362. You consider that the efforts of the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russian J ewish com- munity here have .broken down ?—In this sense—I think they are not able to supply the need. 6363. They cannot deal with the number of people who come here?—They cannot. 6364. Baron Hirsch left large benefactions for the Jewish people ?—Yes. 6365. Have those benefactions increased or diminished the evil ?—I thank they were rather ineffective one way or the other. 6366. They did not have any effect on© way or the other ?—No effect. 6367. With regard to the enormous question, they were nothing ?—No. 6368- A drop in the ocean?—I really think they did not do more than provide for schools, and for several small agricultural stations. 6369. Did it do any good, or was it, in your opinion, money wasted ?—It was rather money wasted. 6370. The money was spent on sending them to Ar- gentina, partly ?—Yes. 6371. And partly also to Palestine ?—No. 6372. Was none spent on the Zionist movement?— No. 6373. But they went to Argentina. Has that attempt to settle them in a country set apart for them been a failure ?—It has been a failure because when you want a great settlement, you must have a flag and an idea. You cannot make those things only with money. A thing must have an idea in it; and as they had not that they could not succeed. 6374. It has been suggested to me that Baron Hirsch's charity tended to increase the number of wh'at you call " Schnorrers " ?—I think so*. 6375. It did?—I think so, because so many people know there is a large bag of money, and they come. 6376. And have a go at it ?—I think so. All that is so natural—I do not think it is merely J ewish. 6377. I agree with you. Do you know of the pres- sure that has been brought to bear upon the Russian Government with regard to improving, the condition of the Jewish people who live under the Russian Govern- ment ?—Certainly ; there is a general movement in what you call public opinion to work upon the mind of the Russian Government, because I think since the times of antiquity there has been mo example of helots, And our peiople are really helots or jpiariaihs in Russia. 6378. Do you know anything about the financial posi- tion of Russia?—No. 6379. It has been suggested that pressure could be brought to bear upon Russia by withholding financial assistance ?—I am not informed upon that. 6380. Have you ever seen it stated that the Jewish community helped the Russian Government in 1894, and at other times gave the Russian Government con- siderable financial aid?—-For what? 6381. Loans ?—I am not informed on that question. E E Dr. T. Herzl. 7 July 1902L218 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: j)f.. 6382. You do not express any opinion as to whether T« Serzl: the withholding of such pecuniary facilities would en- - able us to bring pressure upon the Russian Govern- 3T Jttly 1902, ment£—I should prefer not to speak about questions —-...... which might do any harm to> my friends and brethren in Russia. 6383. I am sorry to have troubled you at such length, but I think I have come to the end. You have been most kind and most helpful ?—I am sorry that I could not answer you more readily. (The proceedings were adjourned for a short time.) 6384. (Mr. Vallance.) There was one reference you made to the difficulties of assimilation. I do not know exactly what you mean to apply to the word in your sense. Do you mean assimilation by inter-marriage, or in any other form?—By assimilation I understand verbally what the word implies—to fbecome assimilar —'that you are no more distinguishable. That is as- similation. 6385. Then assuming that dissemination is possible, would not that lead then to an assimilation in your sense?—No. Dissemination has been going on for 1,800 years. For 1,800 years the Jews have been scat- tered, and they have not assimilated. 6386. Looking at the question from an English stand- point, and assuming that the aliens had not concen- trated themselves so much in one district and had been distributed over different parts of the country, would the question of alien immigration have arisen then?—I think so. 6387. You think that the evils which you have pointed out would be still existent ?—I think so—it would come later on. 'It was bound to come later on. 6388. And there is no possibility of the question being dealt with other than at its source ?—I think not. 6389. I am not quite clear as to what you have in your mind when you speak of diverting at its source the stream of immigration into this country. Have you any particular scheme in your mind?—Yes. 6390. Would you mind describing that?—I should prefer to point it out here only in a broad manner, and I should be very glad if I could give the details to your chairman privately, and if he thinks it worthy — then he could give them to his colleagues. For doing -so, I have certain reasons that will be apparent to you. 6391. You look upon dissemination as impracticable in this country, and almost a senseless proposal in deal- ing with the large question ?—It seems to me to be one of the schemes proposed. I read in the English Jewish newspapers of so many schemes of this and that to alleviate the question, but it seems to me that it is only one of the schemes. 6392. Looking at the question of alien immigration from the standpoint of the United States for a moment, you have referred to the fact that America excludes ? -r-Yes.. 6393. The exclusion is a partial exclusion ?—Exclu- sion, as I know, is worked in this way, that the im- migrant must show a certain amount of money at the moment of his landing. When he lands he must show £hat he has a certain amount of money. 6394. You are aware that the stream of immigration -into the United States is twice as much as the immi- gration into the United Kingdom ?—I know that. New York has now the greatest Jewish population of all towns in the world. 6395. And the actual exclusion is the actual exclu- sion of a small proportion?—Yes, but they go through to America, and I think it is so easy to evade such a prohibition. For instance, if they joined a small company it would lend the necessary amount to eacfc emigrant, and the emigrant shows it and comes in and, sends back by post the amount he has borrowed. There, are not efficacious measles to prevent that. 6396. I took it that your reference to the United States was -an approval of the action of that country as an act of self-preservation ?—-No. 6397: With regard to the scheme which you propose to submit to the Chairman of the Commission, can you state in a few words, broadly, in what direction your scheme would worfc?-Jt would work m creating a centre of sufficient .attraction, so that it would induce men to come there. I beg you to allow me not to go further now. There will be time to enter into details later on. 6398. Anything that is in your mind is in the direc- tion of an attractive force in another direction?—Yes. 6399. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You do not advocate the exclusion from the countries to which the Jews go at present from your point of view. You do not advocate any restrictive measures being adopted by the countries to which Jews now go ?—No, There are countries of bad reputation-, .which can do that, and those which have not such a jealousy of conserving their renown and their old ideas of freedom as exists in England. They may do what they believe right. 6400. At present these Jews, who, from one cause or another, leave Roumania and Russia and other places in the East, go partly to England, partly to America, and, I suppose, to -a great extent, to South Africa?—I think so. 6401. And to other places?—Yes; other parts. 6402. I do not understand that you desire at all to influence that by legislative measures, but you would advocate attraction elsewhere?—I would only advocate attraction to make the channel. I think that is the only way to direct the stream of migration. 6403. But, even if your ideas were successful, and had practical effect, that would not, as a matter of fact, would it, entirely .stop -the Jews going elsewhere, and I do not suppose you would expect that?—I think it w'o'uld not only stop, but call there those who feel them- selves, or were rather felt to be, superfluous—who were not desired. 6404. You think, in fact, the moral and religious ideas, as well as their material advantage, would at- tract them?—As a whole—the whole block of advan- 6405. You do not advocate, in order that that idea may be carried out that other nations should exclude Jews from their countries. You do not consider that a necessary step in carrying out your ideas?'—'That the others may exclude? 6406. Yes ?—I should not like to exclude. I should prefer to be a dreamer of dreams and the events not prove that I have seen aright. 6407. Do you really anticipate danger from any rise of any anti-Semitic feeling in a country like our own ? —Yes; there exists a French proverb, " Cet animal est tr&s me chant; il se defend quand on I'aitlfcaque.^ If the Jews are attacked, they will defend themselves, and you will get something like internal troubles. 6408. Do you anticipate any serious danger of their being attacked?—Unfortunately, I know anti-Semitic countries. I will not give examples. But I may state not only that Jews feel that they are uncomfortable there, but there is a difficulty even for anti-Semites. There comes a time when even anti-Semites regret that they go against Jews. 6409. You have not, as yet, except in the evidence you have read, given before this Commission, seen any evidence of anti-Semitic feeling arising in this country, have you?—I have seen tlhiese things, and I re- member the time before the beginning of anti-Semitism in France. I was present at the beginning of the Drey- fus case, and then there was no anti-Semitism, but it came in, and I do not believe that it is good for a country to have aniti-iSemuitism—not only for the sake of the Jews, but it is .not good; for the country itself. 6410. I have before me a statement, and I should like to know whether you agree with it or not. " The' outcry against the pauper alien "—speaking mainly of the Jewish alien—" seems, in fact, to be the commoner, on the ^vhole more bitter in political than in industrial circles1." That is. a statement of a gentleman who has made a good deal of study of this question. 6411. (Chairman.) Does it refer to this country ? /Ftir Kenelm DigJy.) Yes ; it is an extract from Rus- sell's " The Jew in London " ?—I think it is in the nature of a fact that the political movements are always a little exaggerated. It is in the nature of political proceedings. 6412. I gather from your evidence that the opinion you have formed as to the danger of anti-Semitic feel- ing in England is rather derived from the evidence given before this Commission, which you have read ?-— Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 219- 6413. One word with regard to dissemination. You Have been asked a good deal about dissemination by Mr. Norman. Do you understand by that coercive dis- semination, that is to say, dissemination by operation of law?—I understand by that, that if these Jewish gen- tlemen who propose it would carry it out, it would be as great a fault as it was to send back the Roumanian Jews, because they would prove that Jews themselves use a kind of restrictive maans against Jews. 6414. Supposing there was legislation here prevent- ing overcrowding, or supposing steps were taken under the existing law to prevent overcrowding, that would naturally spread the Jews rather wider, and send them to other parts because they could not get taken in, as there would not be sufficient lodgings ?—As I see in the evidence given before the Commission, the over- crowding restrictions are the mosit easily evaded. 1 have read it in the evidence of several witnesses* that there is a system of .housekeeper and owner, and it makes it impossible to> prevent' it. 6415. That would depend to some extent on how the law is administered, but, however that may be, sup- posing the housing restrictions were enforced, that of itself would cause dissemination, would it not, because they would have to spread over a wider area of ground 1 —I think so. 6416. You would not see any great evil in that ?—I would not see an evil in it when there is not pressure upon a man to go to a certain pfoinit. If by the working of the surrounding conditions, he is obliged to go else- where there is nothing against freedom. 6417. Taking dissemination in that sense, as the natural result of ordinary causes, you would see no objection to it?—No, I could not. 6418. (Lord Rothschild.) I propose recalling to your mind some of the evidence you gave Major Gordon. I am afraid you did not quite understand some of the questions he put to you. I am going to put them in rather a different way : Do you think it possible that a Jew should be a disciple of Dr. Herzl and a Zionist, whatever that may mean, and at the same time a good citizen, and a good Englishman or a good American or aj good Austrian?—I am deeply convinced of it, and you have the proof of it in the last war. I know of Zionist societies who belong to the Zionist groups, who, as a body, were in your Army. 6419. I am obliged to put that question in that way because I think you misunderstood Major Gordon, ■although I think he meant to put ,the question in the way I did, but he was rather more polite than I was. It was stated here at the beginning of this Commission that the fact of a man being a Zionist precluded him from being a good citizen, and rendered it imperative that he should be excluded from the country; I want to put it to you, so that you may explain to the Commis- sion ihow it is compatible for a man to have the same feelings about persecuted brethren in Roumania, and yet be a good citizen?—I think that is one of the rhe- torical questions. 6420. Therefore, the Commission may take it from you that a Jew, or a body of Jews, may share your views about what you call Zionism, and yet be good and devoted citizens?—-Yes, I think so, and far more than those who are not Zionists. (Chairman.) Will you kindly define your view of the word " Zionist" ? ^ 6421. (Lord Rothschild.) Lord James and the Commis- sion are anxious to have a greater knowledge of what you mean, or what is meant by the word " Zionism," whether you mean that there should be a combined movement to re-establish a Jewish State in Palestine, or whether, by the word "Zionism," you simply mean that some great endeavour should be made to colonise some part of the world entirely with Jews. Do I make myself clear?—It is quite clear. 6422. (Chairman.) Would you say what a Zionist is according to you ?—We have a programme formulated in the Basle Congress, and that states that the aims of Zionism are to create a legally-assured home for the Jewish people in Palestine. That is the programme stated at the Basle Congress. Now, it is certainly the goal, but there may be moments where immediate help or a step forward is indispensable, and so* Zionists be- lieve that maintaining always their principle and pro- gramme they should, in the meantime, try to alleviate the hard conditions of oppressed Jews bv adeauate means. 6*144 6423. (Lord Rothschild.) As we are on that question I will go on with it. You are aware that philanthropic T, Hetzk gentlemen, I will not mention their names, have tried ——" . to establish Jewish Colonies in Palestine ?1—They did 7 July 190^ not succeed. — 6224. And these colonies, all of them, have failed hitherto ?—Yes, 6425. There are different opinions why they have failed, but I believe the great majority of people say they failed, because the Turkish Government would not allow them to succeed ?—Well, my Lord, I should pre- fer not to speak about the Turkish Government here, and about the Palestine Settlements, for the moment. 6426. I will not say the dream, but the object that a Zionist has in view is to find a fresh opening for oppressed Jews, apart from the present openings they have got—a fresh home for them, whether it be in Palestine itself or whether it be on the road to Pales- tine or elsewhere ?—I should prefer to speak about it at a later moment. I may ask his Lordship to give me a few moments, and I will put my views in a few words privately to him, and then the Chairman may communicate it to his colleagues. 6427. We will go to quite another subject. You were asked about persecution of the Jews, and if I under- stood you rightly, you knew little about the persecu- tion in Poland and Russia; you were not personally acquainted with the state of Poland and Russia?—I am not personally acquainted with it, but it is the same as with many facts ; I know, for instance, facts of history when I was not present; but I know tihem from trustworthy sources. 6428. You can tell the Commission what is taking place in Roumania to-day?—Yes, I can. 6429. How many Jews are there in Roumania?— About a quarter of a million. 6430. They are obliged to serve in the army?—Yes. 6431. They never can become non-commissioned officers at all ?—There are very few exceptions ; very few. 6432. They can hold no land ?—They can hold land. 6433. Will you tell the Commission what are the particular disadvantages they suffer from in Roumania, and how they have been persecuted there, and how the new laws which have been passed will affect them ?—First, they are affected by the uncertainty of to-morrow, of the coming day. I think that is one of the greatest disadvantages a man can have, that he is not certain of not being turned out to-morrow of his profession and of his house or standing—the in- security of all his conditions. Then there is a real boycott, and a legal boycott. The real boycott is the same we know, for instance, in Galicia and in several countries where anti-Semitism is prevailing. They say, " Do not buy from Jewish shops" ; arid in Rou- mania there is a legal boycott now, and they have brought out a new law against alien tradesmen. But you must understand that in Roumania even natives whose forefathers were born in the land are treated as aliens, and in Roumania the words " alien" and " Jew " are synonymous. 6434. Can a Jew become a lawyer in Roumania?— I know, for instance, a lawyer who has been turned out. He was a lawyer in Roumania; the name was Eskow, and he had a solicitor's office in Roumania, and he has been turned out; I do not know for what reason. 6435. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was he turned out be- cause he was a Jew ?—If he had been a Roumanian he could not have been turned out. 6436. (Lord Rothschild.) In Roumania, in order to practice in any way, you must be a Roumanian, is that it?—To have security you must be a full-righted citizen. 6437. And the fact of your being a Jew prevents your becoming a Roumanian ?—You know what was in the Berlin Treaty. 6438. The Berlin Treaty stated that the Roumanians would have to alter that 1—Every Jew has to go through Parliamentary decision to get an authorisation or a reception from the Parliament, and they vote upon each demand for citizenship, which they refuse or give. There are about 300 who have the rights only among a quarter of a million. I am not quite sure of the figures. EE 2220 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: J)r. 643-9. Supposing the Roumanian 'Government were T, Herzl* forced to carry out the provisions of the Treaty of *i t v i qaq Berlin, an(i put the Jews of Roumania on an equal 7 July 1902. footing with the Roumanians, is there room for them in ..................Roumania or not ?—With regard to land, do you mean? 6440. I am taking the whole question together— land, army, law, medicine, trade—put the whole thing together?—It is not only that. That is a theoretical thing. It is not only a question of having equal rights. I know countries where the Jews have the full rights, but in execution they have not, so that even if you use force, which is quite impossible, in the interest of the European Powers, such intervention with the Roumanian Government will be useless. If I were Roumanian statesman I would ask any country which threatened to intervene, and which was itself anti- Semitio to go ahead. For that reason I do not believe in that intervention ; but even if it could be done, I think the population would make it ineffacious in iprar.tio.ft-. 6441. The surrounding population hate the Jew there ?—We must think so, because they kill them and throw them into the water. These axe proofs of a certain aversion. 64'42. Or is it that the condition of the whole of Roumania is so miserable that someone must go from the country?—I think certainly that the poor Rou- manian is a very poor man. 6443. iiOhairman.) I want to crystallise your evi- dence. You, of course, appear here in one sense on behalf of your race, in which you are interested ?— Yes. L. 6444. And you are very anxious to see everything that you can see done to benefit that race?—Yes. 6445. Maintaining that character, and speaking as the advocate of your race, without consideration of this country alone, do you wish any alteration made in the present law affecting the right of them, as a portion of the alien immigrants, to come into this country ?—Oh, no ; I should not wish. 6446. You, as their advocate, ask for no restriction ? —Yes. 6447. And you want to -maintain perfect freedom ?— Yes. 6448. I distinguish between the alien immigrant and the Jewish immigrant. I ask you with regard to your Jewish brethren as a portion of the alien immi- gration?—I ask you not to make any difference be- '"•-•V tween them. "6449. Of course, you say so, speaking simply as their advocate and on their behalf ?—Yes. 6450. May I not, with your permission, draw a -com- plete -line between that portion of your evidence, in which you have spoken as their advocate, and the other portion, to which you have been led to speak by some of the members of the Commission who have asked your opinion upon things affecting this country ? —Yes. 6451. I may draw that line ?—Yes. 645'2. I am sure y-ou will forgive me if I say to you that it .may be we here in this -country have more know- ledge of what takes place than you have when you express an opinion of what is good for us here?—Cer- tainly, my Lord. 6453. Do you wish us to pay any degree, or a great degree, of attention to the latter portion, as I call it, of your evidence, which affects the remedies that are suggested here for evils, if they exist; do you wish us to pay much attention to what I call the British por- tion of your evidence ?—-I say so in my evidence. 6454. I have paid every attention and great respect to what you have said on behalf of your race and1 your brethren ; but when we come to deal with what exists here, do you wish us to pay the same attention to that portion of your evidence as we do to what affects your race?—I put it before you ; -certainly I have less knowledge of the real conditions here than you have yourself. 6455. Let me .give you an instance. Your general knowledge of what exists throughout the world, of course, will tell you. that overcrowding in houses is an evil; lam sure you will be the first to admit that?— Yes. 6456. As to the- extent of the overcrowding in any one locality in this country, have you any knowledge beyond what you have read in the proceedings of this Commission ?—No. 6457. Then the data upon which you could found a remedy are scarcely in your possession, are they? You have not the knowledge of these data which exist in this country with which we have to deal ?—-No. I knew about it. I had general knowledge, but the figures I found in the evidence were the most statistical material I have had ; the best statistics. 6458. You state on the first leaf of your paper the two alternatives : that we may forbid immigration or we may allow it to continue as it exists. On these two matters you express your opinion properly enough. Do you wisli to express any opinion as to a third course we may take, and that is to regulate and control the present immigration, so as to meet the evils which exist here ?—Certainly ; I understand there may be an administrative way of dealing with it, without -changing the laws or the general institutions ; I understand that, but I am not sure if it will be sufficient. 6459. You do not know yet what any suggested con- trol or arrangements would be ?—But I have two facts to give me a slight instruction, and those are, first, the general conditions of entrance into your land ; and, secondly, the misery present impelling to this land or to any free ports the oppressed Jews. On these two facts I have not the presumption to antici- pate what measures can be taken. 6460. Will you repeat the second .point that you made ?—I repeat that I think the oppression or the misery is so great that it would refine their minds to find out how to turn—for they are dying—-if they tried to live elsewhere. 6461. That is not quite my point. Supposing we could find some arrangement here to control immi- gration, and by arrangement lessen the overcrowd- ing and the other evils,- do you feel qualified to ex- press an opinion that we ought not to make an attempt to do that?—Oh, no, from the English point —no. 6462. I quite understand, if anything occurs, you would wish to allow things to go on as they are in this country?—I think it would be preferable. 6463. From your point of view?—From my point of view. 6464. But if the interests of this country require ar- rangement and control, I understand you would not say that it would be either in-humane or contrary to any view of charity for us to take the step of control and even arrangement of the immigration?—As we are not in the millenium, I should admit that every country decides for itsel fthe necessities of self-defence. 6465. There is one more matter which Lord Roths- child probably abstained from questioning you about from a desire not to be egoistic. You rather, as I understand, condemn the amount of charity that the Jewish people show in this country to the immigrant ? ■—I do not condemn it. 6466. But you regret it P—I regret that the moneys spent in the work of charity iare not used in some general scheme which would perhaps be more effica- cious, and which would avoid creating professional beggars, and which would help real working people. '6467. Will you be a little practical? What would you have altered in the present system of Jewish charity, and wfliat would you like to see that system resolved into?—That would mean that I should have to give a lecture on the subject, if it would not make you impatient. May I give a quotation from a French author ? A lady came back from church and said : " How wonderful that preaching was! " " About what?" asked another. "About charity." "Well," asked she, " What can he have said new about charity ? there is nothing to say new about charity." Cer- tainly, you ought to be charitable, but you must be charitable in the means, and considering the general conditions of your time. In the time of railways and shipping, and so on, when you can for £3 get from one far distant land to another, you must -have quite another kind of charity to what you had in 1800. I do not condemn charity, I am not foolish enough to do so. 6468. I want something practical, if you can give a suggestion to Lord Rothschild, or any of those who MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 221 lead charity in this country?—I should do it with pleasure. 6469. What should you tell them to do? What would you wish? Would you say "Send the Jews to one place," or " give them a particular means of living/' or, what would you suggest?—I would give them general advice, and say " Unite your forces, and find out the right place, and help the real work- ing man instead of the wandering beggars and the professionals. 6470. Find out the right place for what ?—For set- tling. 6471. You want a system of settling, probably away from this country?—Yes. 6472. And you believe that that would relieve the •strain here ?—Yes. 6473. Have not some of these settlements been tried and failed ?—They have been tried and they have failed, because people making these trials thought that money is all in the world; but, it is not. With money you cannot make a general movement of a great mass of people. You must give them an ideal. You must put into them the belief in their future, and then you will be able to take out of them the devo- tion to the hardest labour imaginable. I will give you an example. Argentina has a very good soil, and the conditions for agricultural labour are much better than in Palestine, but in Palestine they work with en- thusiasm and1 they succeed. I am not speaking of the artificially made colonies, but seilf-helping colonies -which have that great national idea. I will not make a long speech, but I think it is clear enough what I mean. 6474. (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton.) Did they fail in Argentina?—They failed partly, because there they were thinking always of the administration of what was given them by Baron Hirsch and there was a com- pany started which surrounded them with all the necessities and avoided the difficulties, and so on. They are not self-supporting. 6475. This is an extract from a book that is as- cribed to Lewis with regnrd to Zionism. I want to ;ask whether you ascribe to this paragraph which I will read : " It should be added that the growth of Jewish national feeling is not out of harmony with the claims -of English citizenship. It may be a curious question for casuists, whether a conflict between the two obliga- tions might arise in any conceivable circumstances. For practical men, it is enough that our adopted country, to which we owe so great a debt of gratitude, does not require us to be worse Jews, in order that we may be better Englishmen. We will not conceal "the fact that our ultimate aspirations are- fixed on the home of our fathers, and that we believe that the genius of the Jewish race will be best developed on Jewish soil. But for many generations to come migra- tion to Palestine must be a slow process, and, perhaps, the Holy Land can never be more than the centre of Jewish life. Meanwhile, our home is here, and we have to show ourselves worthy of the hospitality which we enjoy. The distinct but not divergent claims of citizenship and Jewish nationality may be exceptional, but so is the whole history of Israel ?"—Those are 'excellent words. 6476. (Mr. Norman.)'Are you aware whether it is the fact or not that the leading Jews of America have Br, informed their correspondents here they cannot re- T. HerzL ceive and distribute any more Jewish immigrants?— I have heard of difficulties of emigration and that they ' July 1P02. are overcrowded with Jews. As to that information, I cannot say. 6477. You know in a general way, but not in so definite a way as I have put to you?—-No. 6478. In your opinion, would not the stream of emigration to America have been much greater if no law had existed ?—I think this law did not alter it much—this prohibition—it could not change it. 6479. On what grounds do you believe that?—It is a question of coasts and harbours. They come in. How will you prevent a man from coming in? 6480. Do you mean they are smuggled in?—No, I do not believe that, but they always find means to come in. 6481. They evade the law?—They do not evad® the law; they fulfil the conditions of the law, but the con- ditions of the law are not efficacious. Certainly they fulfil the law. 6482. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) One question on that subject. You refer to the American law, and to the Jewish community sending a great many people on, to America, or trying to send people on to America. They help them on to America from here ?—Yes, several communities try to give them the necessary mean®, or three shops within the area of my district that are not kept by alien immigrants at this present time. (Chairman.) Can you define your district? (Major E vans-Gordon.) It refers to the area of the 500 houses with which the witness's mission dealt. 6509. (Chairman.) Whereabouts is that area?—The boundaries are Mile End Road, oil the north; on the south Oxford Street; on the east Jubilee Street, and on the west Sydney Street—comprising a square block. 6510. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is in the Parliamen- tary division of Stepney, and also in the Stepney Borough. I happen to know that block quite well. Are you in touch with the feeling of the people in the locality on this subject?—I think I am. I cannot be otherwise, because I have laboured amongst them for fifteen years, and I share their sorrows and their difficul- ties. 6511. What would you say as to the feeling ?—In some cases it is bitter, and in other cases there is an attempt to assimilate—to mix. 6512. But you have come across frequently the feel- ing of bitterness and resentment at being turned out, and so on?—Yes, I have noticed it on frequent occasions. 6513. When people are turned out in that way, and their business is done with, a natural feeling arises?-— Yes, I suppose they cannot help it. 6514. And you would share that feeling?—To some- extent I do. 6515. Now about the habits of these people, do you. know anything about them ?—Some of the tenements are in a wretched condition. I was in one last week. I can give you the name of the tenant, and I am not afraid to, and the name of the landlord. It forms one oif the lititile tenements of a row of small houses that was bought, by Mr. Barnettj of London Wall, who immediately raised the rents. That is No. 1, Adelina Grove, form- ing the corner of Sydney Street and Adelina Grove, and the tenement itself is in a most deplorable and wretched5 condition. My fowl-house is a palace to it. He has no grate to cook his food, and no oven to bake it in, and His rent has been raised. 6516. Are these newly-arrived foreigners?—No, this, is an Englishman. He has been offered by aliens money to .turn out, but he sticks there, although doing precious little. 6517. (Chairman.) Is Barnett an alien immigrant or an Englishman ?—I do not know. He is a Jew. 6518. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Those places are in a. deplorable condition. Has this tenant brought that to the notice of the sanitary authorities?—I advised him to, and I think if the County Council saw the place they would condemn it- They must do, I should think,, in the natural course of things. 6519. What I was thinking of were the habits of the foreigners who come in ; do you know anything about, them?—The men dress more decently than the women.. The women seem to be very ignorant, and in many cases indecent. There are streets leading out of Old Montague Street, such as Buxton Street, Hanbury Street, and many adjacent streets in Whitechapel, where I have seen things I should not like to describe before the Commission. I should not like to mention- them. 6520. Do you know anything about the feeling that exists; have you come across many English-Jews in your time down there, as opposed to the foreign Jews V —Yes, I have lived by them in Grafton Street, where I was mainly surrounded by English Jews. 6521. With whom you were on friendly terms?— Yes, intimate in some cases. 6522. Do you know now what their feeling is With: regard to this constant inflow of foreigners?—Yes, iu is against them. 6523. They feel it as muck as the English people- feel it ?—Yes, they expressed it as freely, too. 6524. Yon. have often heard them express their ob- jection to that?—They have done to me. 6525. To these foreigners streaming in?—Yes. 6526. Your view would be that this constant inflow from abroad bears as heavily upon the English Jew^ as upon the Christian Englishman?—Quite—in house- rent and competition in trade, and taxes, of course, going up with the rent. The taxes increase as the* rental increases. 6527. They feel it in that way, too ?—Yes. 6528. Is there anything else you would like: to tell us that you think would be useful?—I should like to-> say th'at the immigration has had a very bad effect upon the religious life in the East End. As a missionary I.. have an opportunity off observing the halbits and manners of the -people, and I have been iamong ithem night and day, by isick bed's and &o forth, and I haive Ibeen in touch with most of the places of worship in the East End, and there are several that have been closed. There is- what was formerly a Primitive Methodist chapel, in* Jubilee Street, on what I may call my side of tht* street. That is closed, and T't is now called the New- Alexandra Hall; I believe it is a place of amusement,, or a dancing place, or something of that kind, or club. 6529. In that case the congregation fell off so much that it could not be carried on ?—It could not. There- was a lease of 12 years to run; the Salvation Army took it, but they failed to get a congregation in. There- was no one to canvass in the district. Then there is the Wycliffe Chapel, which has considerably declined,, in Philpot Street, and in the Miile End Road', the* Brunswick Chapel', they cannot get a minister to serve, ThJatt has been without* a pastor now for nearly two years. The Rev. T. P. Lansdown was-the last iriinister - who was there; andoneofour own halls, in Bedford Street, which was worked by Mr. Murray, who now has* a district in Stratford, is entirely closed.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 223 6530. Does it have a corresponding effect upon the •Sunday ? I suppose these people have got nowhere to .go now for worship like the places they used to have —'the few remaining English?—Accommodation could be found for them if they could find people to go ; but there are not the people living in the district. The Tbetter class of people migrate further out. 6531. With regard to the Sunday, has there been an •effect upon the English Sunday in this district ?—Many •of the aliens work seven days in the week—Saturdays as well as Sundays. 6532. Our Sunday has disappeared in that neigh- bourhood?—Practically, as regards business. Here and there you will find it. The large establishments in the main road are not affected. I .should: think from Bedford Street to Jubilee' Street along Oxford Street, there are 91 houses, and only 17 English families living in those 91 houses. 6533. Of course, the habits of the foreign population with regard to our Sunday are entirely different from our own?—Yes, they are materially different. That is taking them as a rule. There are some of our people who do not regard iany day, or who are not orthodox in ;any way; they are careless iaind; godless, but, as a rule, you do not find' them. They form an exception. 6534. How many of these places of worship have been closed in your memory here?—Four. 6535. Including yours ?—And two others are in a pool state. 6536. The Wycliffe Chapel ?—Yes, there is not a large •congregation there. 6537. It is going down?—Yes. 6538. That must be so from the change of popula- tion?—It is bound to be. 6539. (Chairman.) Of course, going as a missionary amongst these poor people, your opportunity of test- ing them would be by finding out whether they &re Christians, or whether they are religious, I suppose? —You would not have to find it out; it is very patent upon the face of it. You would, not 'be received by the aliens, as a rule, unless they are in gre>a)t distress. 6540. You do find out- easily as to whether they ttre Christians or whether they are Jews?—Yes. 6541. Of these Jews that you have found coming into the district, are they all foreigners?—All that have come in since I first went there—up to .now. 6542. They have been %—Yes. 6543. All foreigners ?—Yes. There were two streets when I went there composed mainly of English-speak- ing Jews ; they are very short streets, and I do not suppose the streets contain more than 20 houses each, Leslie Street and Cecil Street. 6544. Were there many foreigners there when you went in 1887 ?—No, not then ; but there are now. 6545. They have come in ?—Yes. 6546. Are they principally Russians or Poles?— There are some Dutch, some German, but mainly Poles and Russians. 6547. What are the Dutch and Germans? What trades do they follow?—il think some are'in the tailor- ing trade, making clothes, and boot-making, and boot- clicking. 6548. You have spoken of these women being almost indecent; but as to the men, after they have been here a time, how do they behave ?—They dress bettei. 6549. How do they behave ? Are they temperate ?— I do not think they ever were intemperate; I could not say they were ever intemperate as a rule. 6550. Do they learn to speak English %—Quickly. 6551. We have heard the children are intelligent children?—Yes, the children are fairly intelligent. I had a son at the Whitechapel Foundation Schools, and I believe 70 per cent, of the children there were Jewisn children, and my son used to say they were very in- telligent and sharp. 6552. I jam not going into the economical or over- crowding question; but is there anything in the con- duct of these people that would cause you to say that evil results from their presence here?—The men do not seem immoral, except in language; they can use bad language freely. 6553. In the English language ?—Yes, when they get to know it. But the women seem very ignorant, and I really pity them in many cases. They seem totally Garrett. ignorant of spiritual matters altogether, and they do " not seem decent while standing at the doors of a night 7 July 1902# in the hot weather. -— 6554. Do you mean they are only partially clothed, or is their conduct indecent ?—Partially clothed. 6555. There are improper houses all over London, but are there many houses of ill fame in this district ? —-No, I do not know of one in Stepney now ; they have been purged out. In 1887 they began, just as I went there. There were from 90 to 100 in Stepney when I went there- in 1887, but there were very stringent measures taken, and they were turned out; in fact, those which were in Stepney were notable, and they caused the whole of East London to have a bad name. 6556. (Mr. Vallance.) The number of aliens have in- creased in your area from 10 per cent, to about 80 or 90 per cent., have they not?—i~es. 6557. When you first went there, there were from 90 to 100 houses of ill-fame 'f—in Stepney ; not in my district. 6558. Were any of those within that area ?—Yes ; I think I can give you the numbers that were in my dis- trict, exclusively. In Stepney there were from 90 to 100 m 1887 ; 20 in Oxford Street, in Adelina Grove 8 or 10, m V^olseley Street 2, and in Richardson Street 1. 6559. How many of these would be within the area to which you have referred ?—14. 6560. With the increase of the alien population, has the moral condition of that district improved, or other- wise ?—When these brothels were purged and the popu- lation cleared out of them, they were taken mainly by Gentile families, with a few exceptions. 6561. From your experience, are the alien Jews a less moral people than the English?—On the whole, I could not say that they were less moral. Perhaps there is a great deal isaid that I do not understand, and that I cannot catch the meaning of. 6562. You refer to the deplorable scenes which you have witnessed in Old Montagu Street and Buxton Street, and that neighbourhood. Were those scenes in "> which the aliens were parties ?—They were foreign Jews at the doors—in fact, it is mainly a foreign Jewish ' ' colony—all those streets. 6563. Had you experience of the East End of London before this large imimgr&bivB nad taken place of Jews ? —ISot before 1887 ; that is saout fifteen years ago. 6564. You have spoken of the increase in that area. What class of people were displaced by these foreigners ? —They were dockmen, carpenters, all trades—boot- makers, and a respectable working class population— mechanics some of them. 6565. Have the scenes since then been less orderly than previously ?—You mean the general conduct of the district ? 6566. Yes?1—To my mind, perhaps, I should speak from a religious point of view; and I should say there is a greater desecration) than there used to be. You. might think I was prejudiced in that way. 6567. Beyond that desecration of the Sabbath, what would you say was the relative moral condition ?—I do not think their moral condition is any worse than other people's, taking them all round. Of course, there are exceptions iiu all classes. 6568. It is generally admitted the Jews are a sober people?—Yes; I think they are fairly sober. They drink, but not excessively. 6569. You have spoken of a considerable increase of rents, occasioned, from your point of view, by the immi- gration. Has that increase of rent been in any way associated with overcrowding 3—Yes, very much so. I remember there was a house in Oxford Street, just be^ fore I left, in which there were several families, of aliens. It contained five rooms and a wash-house, and there were 31 people in it. 6570. When was that?—That was five years ago, in 1897; 6571. A Jewish family would be no more able to pay an increased reut than an English family?—Oh, yes, they are, because they sub-let more extensively to other aliens who- come. 6572. It would be no more possible for an alien family224 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. G. H. Garrett* 7 Jtily 1902. to pay an increased rent than it would be for an English, family, assuming that the occupation was strictly limited to that family t—If it was. 6573. And, therefore, if you admit that, you admit that the increase of rent is attributable solely and en- tirely to the overcrowding which is existing?1—I think so. I could give you, as an instance, No. 13, Adelina Grove. That is a very poor pant. There are four rooms in this house, and there is no back outlet! to it. The back is abutting on the dead wall of Harlow House. That contains four rooms. The rent was formely 8s. per week, and a widow woman had it. It is now 15s. a week, with a deposit of £5 for the key, and it is sub- let to aliens who sleep in relays on the premises. You cannot possibly tell the number of people. 6574. And by reason of that sub-letting they are en- abled to pay the rent ?—They are enabled to pay a very much heavier rent. That house belongs to Mr. Chis- wick, a bootmaker, in Assembly Passage, Mile End! Road. It formerly belonged to Mr. Pollard, the baker. SEVENTEENTH DAY. Thursday, 10th July 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford {Chairman), The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. I Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. | WiuLiAM Vallance, Esq. (Chairman.) Dr. Herzl, who gave evidence before the Commission on the last occasion, has sent a written document to us which he wishes to be read. It is. as follows : " Dr. Herzl wishes to state that he regrets to find he was in some quarters misunderstood in respect to a reply he made in the course of his cross-examina- tion before the Alien Immigration Commission, as to Jewish charitable institutions in England proving an attraction for alien immigrants. Dr. Herzl, as the text of his evidence shows, of course, referred only to the attraction of the small " schnorrers," ie., the beggar " class. Obviously the Jewish working men who form the large bulk of alien immigrants, since they would refuse to rely on charity,, could not be attracted hither from that cause. It follows, therefore, that although, in Dr. Herzl's opinion certain aliens are attracted to this country by Jewish charity, they cannot in numbers? be but a paltry few." Mr. J. Foot. Mr. John Foot, called ; and Examined, L0 July 1902. 6575- (Major IEvans-Gordon.) Would you state what —- your position is ?—I am Chief Sanitary Inspector to the Borough Council of Bethnal Green. 6576. I believe you are connected with the Mansion House Housing Council ?—-I was asked to give evidence to this Commission, first by the Mansion House Council, on the dwellings of the poor, and I reported that to my authority, who passed a resolution authorising me to do so, and to have the evidence that I could give to this Commission printed. I am here in pursuance of that resolution that was passed by the borough council. The area of the borough I represent is 755 acres ; the rateable value is £523,245; the population is 130,000, and the rated premises number 17,000. In the early part of 1890 I was appointed a sanitary inspector by the then Vestry of Bethnal Green. Over six years ago I was appointed chief inspector of the Public Health Department. I have thus had, for over 12 years, daily official experience of the results caused by the un- restricted immigration of foreign Jews. I only propose to speak on the question in so far as it affects the sani- tary conditions of the borough, especially as regards overcrowding and housing accommodation. In the early part of 1890 the Jewish population was practically confined to a few streets on the southern boundary of our parish, viz., roughly to Pedley Street, Code Street. Weaver Street, Eckersley Street, and to the southern portion of Brick Lane up to and including John Street. During the 12 years mentioned there has been an enor- mous increase of Jewish immigration. This increase has been much more rapid during the later part of the period, and is still increasing, with the result that the foreign population has overflowed into a number of other streets from whence the original inhabitants have, of course, been ousted. The following' streets are now, more or less, occupied by these aliens—Arundel Street, Vallance Road (part), Bacon Street, Hare Street, Fuller Street (part), Collingwood Street, Brick Lane (part), Fellbrigg Street (part), Darling Row, Lisbon Street, part of Bethnal Green Road, particularly a number of houses and shops, at the western end. On the northern side of Bethnal Green Roa-d there are now numbers of aliens to be found in Ebor Street, Chance Street, Church Street, L.C.C. Boundary Street area, and Brick Lane, also in large blocks of dwellings in Newling Street,. Chambord Street, Queen's Buildings, and Gossett Street, where a few years ago there were practically none. In addition to this a whole street called Boreham Street and the part of Brick Lane adjoining has been pulled down and rebuilt, and is now entirely occupied by foreigners (say accommodation for 200 persons); the previous occupants, which were all British, have been entirely displaced. o677. (Sir Kenelm Digby.} When you say rebuilt, what sort of buildings are they?—Large flats. They are three storeys high, with workshops on the top." The same applies to George Gardens area, in Bethnal Green Road, covering about four acres, which has been pulled down and cleared away, and where an entirely British population of about 500 persons have been completely displaced, and the new houses, so far as they are built and inhabited, are occupied by foreigners. The in- crease is noticeable, though not to such a great extent, right away through the north-eastern part of our borough, and so on into South Hackney. It is almost impossible to say in numbers what this increased popu- lation amounts to, but one is quite safe in putting it at several hundreds, and when one considers that no addi- tional house accommodation has been or can be pro- vided for them, it is obvious that overcrowding,, originally quite bad enough, must be more intense, and the difficulty of the housing question enormously in- creased. This increased overcrowding would not, of' course, be restricted to the foreign Jews, but would react on the original inhabitants by the very fact that there is so much house space and accommodation en- tirely taken away from them. 6578. (Chairman.) I do not understand the meaning of the words "be restricted to the foreign Jews"?—I mean that overcrowding does not exist only among the Jew population. I mean to say the very fact that such a large number of immigrants have ccme has caused the overcrowding to extend to the original natives.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 225 £v57& It, does not fall only on the foreign Jews, but it affects the others ?—Just; so. .As a consequence you , iiave both Jew and Gentile herded together in their respective districts, and living and working under the most unhealthy conditions. The difficulties of sani- tary administration are being greatly! enhanced by this •continuous increase of numbers on space, and I do not think it is too much to say that the 'efforts the public, health authorities are making 'to itaprove their districts are largely nullified by the importation of large numbers of persons, for whose, accommodation no provision is made,, and many of "whom are uncleanly in their persons and habits, and absolutely ignorant of all hygienic and sanitary ideas. It need hardly be pointed out that, with the larger number of persons nowrequiring house accommodation «on a comparatively small area, rents have been in- creased to an entirely fancy value. This agaiin tends to -overcrowding, from the fact that the demand far exceeds. the supply, and is especially hard on numbers of the working classes whose wages have not liicreased in pro- pOi|iohi and who afe compelled to liVe in'1 the districts iiiSvllich their work is situated. This position of affairs lias been taken full advantage of, and made the occa- sion for what appears to be nothing more,'or less than a •sort of gambling in house property. Jew house dealers, who are artful enough to appreciate the situation, are 36iind buying up property after property, and so soon as they are in possession, the tenants get notice, and they Iiave to pay increased rents or go. Subsequently the pro- perty may be sold at a profit on the returns shown by the increased rentals, and in some oases this procedure has been repeated, each change of ownership meaning more rent for the unfortunate occupiers. Whether the tenants be tradesmen, shopkeepers, or dock labourers, they are equally at the mercy of the , house dealers, .as in each case " their living " is there, and there they must reside. These fictitious, values are further in- creased by the modern system known as " key money," under which various sums of money are charged to the tenants when takijng the premises on entering into occupation. ' This, of course, is practically increased Tent, and all leads to sub-letting and dividing up of rooms, resulting in overcrowded and unhealthy dwell- ings. I may perhaps be allowed, before I conclude, to •anticipate a very probable question as to whether the overcrowding, which undoubtedly exists, generally cannot be dealt with more stringently under the exist- ing laws. Having taken action in numerous cases, I may fairly claim to have some experience on which to T>ase an opinion, and I venture to say that the existing , machinery is totally inadequate to cope with the evil. -"First,, the provisions of Section 94 of the'Public Health (London) Act, enabling local sanitary authorities to make bye-laws for the proper regulation of houses " let in lodgings," or " tenement houses," -as they are termed* have been completely nullified by the decision in the ease of Weatheritt v. Cantlay, except in those very few cases probably under one per cent., where the lodger either lives with the landlord or the landlord retains •some permanent control in the letting. As a result of this, local authorities have to fall back on the statute itself, and take action, as in the case of a. nuisance or insanitary premises, 6580. Is what you complain of here the) btye-laws toeing insufficient ?—I complain that under the defini- ton as defined by that judgment in Weatheritt v. •Cantlay they do not apply to hundreds of houses that we thought they did apply to. 6581. It was a proceeding under the bye-laws?—Yes. 6582. It is that the bye-laws are insufficient ?—The definition is bad. 6583. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That it did not apply to a house; then you are driven back to the question of nuisance ?—Yes. This means that when all initial diffi- culties are overcome, and the inspector has discovered -a case of legal overcrowding, he has then to serve an intimation notice under Section 3 on the person liable to abate the Overcrowding. The officer has then to wait for a meeting of his authority, to whom he reports the facts, and they then order a statutory notice to be served on the person by whose act, default or suffer- ance, the nuisance is caused. If this second or statutory notice is disregarded, the person liable then only becomes subject to a penalty under Section 4, Sub- section 4, provided always the inspector is still in a position to prove his case ; but as the statute does not give an absolute power of entry to the officer, it can 6144 be readily understood that his chances of inspecting the Mr. J. Foot. interior of the rooms are somewhat remote after the —— service of the two notices named. To do this the officer 10 July 1002. must apply for a magistrate's order to enter by force if....... need be, and then his difficulties commence afresh." 6584. (Chairman,) What is the power of entry?— Notice is served under Section 4. 6585. Section 10 of the Public Health Act of 1891 says: "The sanitary authority shall have a right to enter from time to time any premises, for . the purpose of examining as to the existence thereon of any nuisance liable to be dealt with summarily under this Act, at any hour by day, or in the case of a nuisance arising in respect of any business, then at any hour when that business is in progress, or is usually carried on. " What is the qualification in that power of entry ^Supposing : you apply for entry and to make an inspection, and you get refused, you are then at once stopped, and you •have to apply to the magistrate for an order to enter. The authority has no power off-hand to enter. 6586. {Sir- Kenelm Digby:) If there is an actual nuisance, there is power to enter ?-—Not to enter with- out the magistrate's nrder. 6587. (Chairman.) I father doubt that ?— (Sir Kenelm, Digby.) If you have a reasonable cause to suspect a nuisance, you can enter?—Yes, that is the whole thing, but owing to the necessity of serving the first and second notice, and having a meeting of the authority, there must be a delay of some days. 6589. (Chairman.), It says the sanitary authority shall have the right to enter for the purpose of ex- amining. Then, if the sanitary authority have a right to enter, they may enter by any member of the authority . apparently 'without any authorisation, and by any officer authorised generally or in a particular case. That is Section 115. Why have you not got general authority to enter ?—A sanitary' officer has general authority by the terms of his appointment. 6590. Then, why not enter?—Supposing you are refused ? . 6591. They cannot go against the statute. You have the right ?—'There is that unfortunate case, at all events, of the North London Collegiate School. I can give you the reference to that case. This is rather, of course, on the assumption that I am right with regard to the section. Then, to continue my statement, the magis- trates quite properly require to be satisfied that there is real urgent reason for granting the order asked for —that is, an order to enter by force. The Inspector can only say that on his visit (of necessity) some days ago overcrowding existed, but he is unable to go further. Suppose, however,, the order is obtained, and he ulti- mately gets admission? 6592. Is this an order to enter, because the person has refused to let you in?—Yes. 6593. And you treat it as an offence, as wilful obstruction, or do you get an order to authorise you to enter?—An order for the .authority to enter for the purpose of making an examination. iSuppose, however, the order is obtained, and he ultimately gets admission, he will, after the notices are served, find a different aspect. The bedding, that on a former occasion covered ' . the whole floor space, is now very carefully packed away on the one bedstead, and so far as this is concerned, there is nothing to show more than one bed. Perhaps some members of the family may have removed to an obliging friend or relative living near, and the over- crowding is abated, if only for the moment; or suppose all the members of the family are at home, they quickly assume new relations to each other. The big son and daughter may become a pair of lovers (or visitors), who have " come in to spend the evening, and was just going as you came in, sir." They do,go, in fact, but not far. The smaller children may become nephews and nieces for the time being, but sometimes spoil the play and appear lost when told to run home now, as mother is back by this time, and aunt cannot have them any longer. These and similar devices cause the officer to consider that' he'might have a better chance of secur- ing a conviction if he had been present at the birth of F F226 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. J. Foot. all the family. These are cases that have happened •<- to me in my -own experience and to my staff. As a 10 July 1902. matter of fact, overcrowding in the main is never abated, - rooms here and houses there, and probably streets, are dealt with from time to time, and certain families go out of one room or house into another, or if followed up persistently may go from one district to another and be lost sight of, but the bulk is practically never reduced. The machinery requires simplifying, and there should be a penalty for each day overcrowding is found to exist, not after two or three notices have been served and expired. As to overcrowding generally, I should like to add that although, unfortunately, there is too much overcrowding for anything like a healthy state of life, I do not think, so far as Bethnal Green is concerned, that the matter is quite so bad as has been represented in some quarters. We had a sipecial inspec- tion made some months back of certain areas specially with a view to ascertaining as far as possible to what extent overcrowding did exist. The result of that inquiry showed that there had been some exaggeration, more particularly with regard to those cases where it was alleged two or more families occupied one room. The condition of things disclosed was bad enough to warrant one in saying that some speedy remedy was needed, but no doubt there has been exaggeration. Another thing is that we have not yet, perhaps, felt the pressure to such an extent as the other parishes have, but after making every allowance, I have no doubt that the evil is serious and progressive, and should not be allowed to continue unchecked. May I say here, my Lord, with regard to what I consider the exaggeration. ^ It was alleged some few months ago in a certain evening paper, that a large number of rooms were being divided up, and that one, two, three, and four families^ were allowed to occupy one particular room—a family in one corner and a family in another. 6594. (Major JEvans-Gordon.) And a lodger in the middle ?—And a lodger in the middle. As to other dis- tricts I am not speaking, but as far as Bethnal Green is concerned, that particular phase of the question has been exaggerated. We did not find so much of that, &s they did in other districts. 6595. (Lord Rothschild.) It was imaginary ?—As far as Bethnal Green was concerned that portion of it was absolutely. I did intend that to be the end of my evidence, but I attended your 'Commission on other days, and I heard the evidence of Dr. Shirley Murphy, and with your permission I should like to go on with something that arose during his examination. 6596. {Chairman.) Certainly?—'With your consent I should like to refer to the evidence given before your hon. Commission, on Monday, June 9th, by Dr. Shirley Murphy, Medical Officer of Health to the London County Council. I gathered from that evidence that Dr. Murphy is of opinion that neglect and local self- interest had caused the existing machine^ to be largely neglected, resulting m the present overcrowded con- ditions^ and that no further legislation is required to deal with this matter, a steady systematic enforcement of existing powers being alone necessary. With regard to the self-interest and neglect of existing machinery, I beg to point to the fact that up to 1893 the sanitary staff of Bethnal Green consisted of three inspectors and one clerk ; in 1901 this staff had been increased to ten inspectors and three clerks, and at the present moment it remains at nine inspectors and four clerks. 6597. Are you one of the ten?—There are ten in- spectors, including myself, at this moment. There were ten and myself. 6598. What position are you in in regard to those ten?—I am their chief. 6599. And they are under you?—Yes, my Lord,. To show further that existing machinery has not only not been neglected, but the utter futility of driving these poor people from pillar to post, I have had reprinted an extract from my annual report of 1898 : " Housing of the Working Classes Act. No doubt this question is advancing at Spring Gardens "—the question there being the ^question of housing accommodation—" and apparently has got to this point, that both the Council and its housing committee have found out that the housing of the working classes is a much larger and far more difficult question than many of the members appeared to think about a year or so ago, when they so lightly suggested that a rigid' enforcement by the sani- tary authorities of the clauses of the Public Health Act relating to overcrowding would provide a solu~ tion of the question. If any of the hon. members are still of the opinion they then were, I venture, with all proper submission, to request their attention to the experiences obtained in your department during the last twelve months or so, both under the Housing and Public Health Acts." 6600. To whom was this report made?—To my sanitary authority. 6601. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The vestry, as it then was ? —Yes. "As regards the first, the proceedings taken prove absolutely (what we all knew very well before) that there is not, and has not been for years past; any- thing near approaching sufficient housing accommoda- tion. Here you had houses unfit for human habitation, the sanitary authority endeavouring to carry out its statutory duty, and from whom did the request come that you should stay your hand ? Not from the owners or agents but from the unfortunate occupiers of these miserable habitations, seven of whom had to be taken to the police court and fined, and another actually sent to prison, for the simple reason that they had nowhere to go, and wretched as these places were, they afforded some kind of shelter, and, at all events, better than the streets. The same applies to other parts of the district, besides Collingwood Street. Take, for in- stance, George Gardens and Middle Walk, where, for a considerable time, people there have been in absolute dread of housing operations, which, to them, in many cases, means unhousing. Does any sane man suppose for a moment that these people would cling to old, decayed, and damp habitations (as a large number of these premises undoubtedly are) if proper and suffi- cient house accommodation were obtainable at reason- able rents? So much for repression under this Act. Let us now see what it has done under the Public Health Act as regards the question of overcrowding." 6602. {Chairman.) What is the tc it" ?—Repression^ " With the addenda that if the like proceedings were taken, the like results would follow in the district generally. I do not know that I can do better than present the report I made in November last on this question, so far as it related to the streets therein men- tioned, and which may be taken as typical of a large portion of the district. The report is, I venture to think, sufficiently explicit, but for the information of those who talk so cheerfully about legal proceedings, and the rigid enforcement of the law, I should like to point out that in these cases you had people in two streets followed up for overcrowding until they were evicted from any kind of habitation at all, and for some weeks, their only shelter was the walls of back yards, their sleeping-places washhouses, on the steps and passages of the houses from which they had previously been ejected. One of these families was ultimately broken up, their goods taken to the Vestry's Depot, the wife and smaller children going to the workhouse, the man and boy to Croydon and elsewhere. To witness such «oenes was distressing in the extreme, and I greatly regretted that I oould not place them before those hon» members of the Housing Committee at Spring Gardens, and ask how much farther they would consider the local sanitary authority ought to go in for ' the rigid enforcement of the law.' The truth is very well known to those who have actual everyday experience of this matter, that theorising about the question at a distance is as futile as prosecuting and evicting these poor people. What is wanted is more—much more—house accommodation at the lowest possible cost, both in London and the suburbs, instead of which we have an increased population, both home and alien, and a de- creased house accommodation, with ever-increasing rents. The report above referred to was forwarded to the Local Government Board, the London County Council, and to the members of the Council for this parish, and was as follows: At a meeting of the Sanitary Committee held at the Vestry Hall, Bethnal Green, on the 23rd November, 1898. Overcrowding.—The Chief Inspector reported with reference to the notices served, and the proceedings taken for the abatement of over- crowding in Wolverley Street and Canrobert Street, that in several of the cases some of the families had merely abated the overcrowding of one room, by moving into another room of similar size in an adjoining housed and that others were unable to obtain the additional accommodation required. At No. 35, Canrobert Street, after the notices had been served on the owner and occupier to abate the overcrowding, a family had been ejected, and such goods as they had had been put in the washhouse in the yard, which was the onW shelter thisMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 227 family had for some days. He understood that they had been allowed to sleep at different places, but no one seemed to know exactly where; probably they had been sleeping in this house, but the tenants did not wish the fact to be known. At No. 33, Wolverley Street, where notices were also served on the owner and occupier to abate the overcrowding, a family some short time since took a second room, but, being unable to pay the rent, were ejected and their things put into the yard. The family consisted of a man, his wife, a girl about 14, a boy about 12, and a small boy about 3 years of age. They have been in the yard of these premises, entirely without any shelter or housing accommodation, for the last 14 days. To-day the Oxford House authorities called his attention to them, when he found they were all wet through, and shivering with the cold, and apparently destitute." 6603. (Chairman,) What is meant by the Oxford House authorities ?—That is a settlement in Bethnal Oreen from the Oxford University. 6604. Charitable ?—Philanthropic. It is a settlement for young Oxford graduates. 6605. It was not a legal interference ?—No. " He had telegraphed to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, and also communicated with the Relieving Officer. He had instructed the Vestry's men to rig up a temporary tarpaulin, to provide them with a coke fire and some food. He understood that the family and their goods would be put into the streets to-morrow morning. He had made inquiries, and there were abso- lutely no empty rooms or empty houses to put the people into, and it appeared that the only result of serving notices for the abatement of overcrowding, and following them up with proceedings, will be that a large number of people will have to be put into the street, there being insufficient housing accommodation for them, even in their overcrowded state, in the parish. It was resolved that a copy of the Chief Inspector's report be sent to the secretary of the Local Government Board and the Clerk to the London County Council. At a meeting of the Sanitary Committee, held at the Vestry Hall, Bethnal Green, on the 30th November, 1898. In con- tinuance of the report as to the notices served and proceedings taken, in respect of the overcrowding in Wolverley Street and Canrobert Street, the Chief In- spector reported that the family that was ejected from 35, Canrobert Street had, after being without housing accommodation, and having lived in the yard in rear of these premises for nearly three weeks, succeeded in obtaining another room. He supposed the committee ought now to commence to take proceedings against them again for the overcrowding of this room, which would apparently only lead to their being evicted for the second time. The family that was evicted from 33, Wolverley Street remained in the yard of these premises up to Friday last, the 25th November, when the owner put their things into the street. Suoh goods as they had were subsequently removed to the Vestry's Depot, and there they at present remained. He under- stood the man had gone to Croydon to get some work, and that the woman, who was far advanced in preg- nancy, had gone into the Infirmary with one of the smaller children, and he was unable to say what had become of the other two members of the family. He had made inquiries with reference to the increase in the rents, and found that the houses in these streets originally let at 9s. and 9s. 6d. per week. Some time ago the rents were increased to lis. and lis. 6d. per week. Soon after the present owners took possession these were again increased to 18s., 19s., and 19s. 6d. per week. From inquiries he had made, this increase of rents had now become general in the district, and did mot by any means apply to these two streets only. The question appeared to be fast approaching a climax, as, what with the alien immigration, the insufficient housing accommodation, and the enormously high rents now being charged, it was no longer within the means of working men, earning ordinary labourers' wages, to provide decent housing accommodation. It was re- solved that a copy of the Chief Inspector's report be sent to the Secretary of the Local Government Board and the Clerk to the London County Council. Besides these, there were 102 cases of overcrowding dealt with." 6606. By whom would that be dealt with P—By me and my staff. " Besides these, there were 102 cases of overcrowding dealt with, and in order that no one may suppose the above to be isolated cases, it will be well before leaving this subject to mention that, at the time 6144. of writing, we have in hand cases which are nearly Mr. J. loot, as bad. One is a family found by Inspector Bridel - living in a shed, utterly unfit, and in fact never 10 July •• 902o possessing or intended to possess any of the require- —------ ments for a habitation—simply a shed, originally in- tended, no doubt, for standing a horse, or two or three carts. The other was reported by the Jewish Board of Guardians, and on Inspector Weston visiting he found a family of six persons occupying a cellar of a house in Code Street, which was as unfit for habitation as the previous case. Proceedings are, of course, being taken, which no doubt will result in the usual eviction scene and subsequent crowding into some other wretched place. But this can hardly be called 'housing the people,' even if it is continued ad lib. If further evi- dence is required to represent the views of those who are locally doing their best with this problem, I venture to add an extract from the annual report of Dr. Bate, the Medical Officer of Health for the Borough, which report has just been presented, and is as follows : Ex- tract from annual report of Dr. Bate, Medical Officer of Health: Houses let in lodgings.—The concluding paragraph of my report for 1900 was as follows : I con- gratulate the Council-" 6607. Is the Council the new Borough Council ?—Yes, my Lord. 6608. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to these tene- ment house regulations, are they new bye-laws ?—Yes. 6609. New bye-laws for Bethnal Green ?—Yes. 6610. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have you seen the ones introduced for Stepney?—Yes; Dr. Thomas sent me a copy of the bye-laws. 6611. Are they the same?—I am afraid they have the same fault as ours. 6612. Are these approved?—Yes, and enforced, too. They were allowed by the Local Government Board in 1895. 6613. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Stepney has had new ones ?—-Yes. We were in default. We had them made in 1895, but they were not enforced. Dr. Bate says: " I congratulate the Council1 upon their resolution to put these tenement house regulations into force. We sliall at least know if they be worth the paper upon which they are printed, and a fruitful source of friction be- tween. Spring Gardens and Bethnal Green will be re- moved. It is well known that the ordinary clauses of the Public Health Acts are utterly inadequate for the purpose of dealing with what are known as " tenement houses" ; by whicih expression is meant houses (usually, but not always) originally intended for the accommodation of single families, but afterwards sub- divided and let out in tenements. Most of these houses have a street door which is used in common by all the tenants, sometimes latch keys are provided, but usually the door is simply secured by what is known as a " Norfolk latch." Personally I was of opinion that premises of this nature (of course excluding blocks of so-called model dwellings) were such as could be dealt with under regulations, but this idea was rudely dis- peJled by the decision of the judges in Weatheritt v Gantlay. The Council had appointed a special officer, Mr. Bare, and set him to work to inspect a number of houses let out in tenements, with a view of registering them. Almost at once our right to demand the par- ticulars necessary for registration was challenged. ,/The Town Clerk's report and counsel's opinion were care- fully considered by the Public Health Committee, and it was decided that it would be futile to attempt to enforce registration in the present state of the law as to the definition of a house." Then follows the judgment of the Lord Chief Justice in Weatheritt v. Cant lay, and the following is a copy of the judgment. " The Lord Chief Justice: I think, now this case has been argued out, that there really is no difficulty in it. I do not think any of the cases on the meaning of the word ' house,' for the purpose of particular statutes, help us. I think we have really to look to see what the object of this legislation was, and then construe the words with reference to the object of the legislation By Sub-section A of Section 94 of the Public Health (London) Act, 1891: " Every sanitary authority shall make and enforce such bye-laws as are requisite for the following matters, that is to say (a) For fixing the number of persons who may occupy a house or part of a house which is let in lodgings." I think the object of this legislation was to control the number of people who should occupy a tenement which may be fairly F F 2228 ROYAL COMMISSION ON AlilEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. L Foot' described;: as $ separate ..that is shown the, rzrr- ; wpjrdspart of a house which is l6t1 in lodgings.' Speak- 10 July 1902. ing for myself, I do not draw any distinction between the words ' let in lodgings,' or ' occupied by members of niore than one family,' except that one state of facts may^ring' it within pne set of words, and another state of facts may bring it within the other, but whether the lodgings are furbished or unfurnished for the purpose of this section Seeans to me to make no difference. I thinly I must find in order to bring it. within the section either, a house which" is itself let in lodgings^ or a part of a house, which is let: in lodgings. It is said when, you come to clear with the facts of this case, that you are to look at the whole structure, and regard the whole building of bricks and mortar as one house, and then ij you fiild it sub-divided' inside it is a house which'is, or a part'Bf which is, letin lbdgings. I do not 'call attention to the extraordinary result, of that arguitfent except for the purpose of trying to see why the regislature should hiave put in those limiting words, but one cannot help seeing that if Mr. Maomorran's view is right, there might be some very large structure of absolutely separate residential, flats, and if any one of them was let in lodgings, the whole of them must come in for the purpose of this. Further than that I cannot help thinking that there is a good deal in the view that ^althoughthe legisla^ure might haye ijnposed t a limi^ojhe yalne^in ^vfry case, either lodgings let at a certain rent, or houses occupied by members of more than one family, or a house, that is? to s'ay, a separate tenement let., at. >a,:yet still, when you find these general words, ypu would expect to find them applicable to a given subject matter, and not to a s-ubject matter limited by some pecuniary standard. I think when you look at the-facts of this case, this building is a collection of houses for the purpose of, this section. ,There> is no front door.. There is a common passage and common; staircases. On those common passages and common staircases open a number of front doors which may be locked, and are separately occupied by the tenants of those. If any one of those is let in lodgings, or if a room is occupied by members of more ihan one family,,then the particular landlord of that particular house would come within the terms of the section. In my opinion it is going too far to say that the whole structure of bricks and mortar is a . house or part of a house let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than ons family, simply because there afe separate tenements and separate occupations Under the circumstances stated ih this case. I think, therefore, the judgment of the. magistrate was quite right. (Mr. Justice Lawrance.) I am ".of the same opinion. (Mr. Justice Phillimore.) I agree. (Mr. C. A. Bussell.) The appeal will be dismissed with costs? (The Lord Chief Justice!.) Yes. (Mr. C. A. Russell.) To include the costs of the previous hearing, my Lord? (The Lord Chief Justice.) I am afraid so. (Mr. C. A. Russell.) If your Lordship, pleases." There are not more than. twenty houses (within the meaning of the judge's definition of a house) let out in lodgings, in :he borongh, to which the regulations could be made to apply, and these particular premises are not by any means tho worst of their kind. ) Under these circum- stances it was felt that the special inspector's appoint- ment! was, at any rate for the present, superfluous. Fortunately a vacancy caused by resignation occurred, and Mr. Bare was made dairy and cowsheds inspector, in which capacity he has done excellent work. The London County Council have been foremost in urging local authorities to put these regulations into force, they have regarded them as a sort of panacea for all sorts of sanitary evils, including overcrowding, and much abuse has been expended in Bethnal Green for failing to do impossibilities. The sooner the London County Council bestir themselves in the direc- tion of inducing Parliament to amend the definition of < a house let out in lodgings,' the sooner the sanitary authorities will be in a position to work tenement house regulations, which, in the present state of the law certainly are not worth the paper upon which they are printed. I would only add that Dr. Bate has been medical officer of health for thirty years, and has resided in the borough for a longer period, carrying on a Targe private practice, and filling numerous public appointments, and is ^ thus peculiarly qualified to speak' on this question. 6614. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We have hitherto been dealing in this inquiry with thei Borough of Stepney principally,;where the alien immigration has been most strongly felt. The fact of our dealing with Bethnal Green in itself shows how fast the movement of immi- gration is affecting the districts to the eastwards ?— Yes. 6615. This Bethnal Green question of immigration is a comparatively modern one ?—Yes, as I say, in 1890 we had practically very few aliens. 6616. But now they are coming in rapidly ^Now they are becoming general. Might I also add to that,, that I saw a map in your office in Great George Street,, which your secretary, Mr. Eddis, told me was up to date, coloured blue where the aliens are dense, and so gradually going on to red; but, as. a matter of factr the increase in our parish has got ahead of that map. 6617. Th^ map does not accurately show any longer the conditim of things ?—No; speaking from memory, I think the map shows practically no aliens on the- northern side of Bethnal Green Road; but, as a matter of fact, there are numbers of aliens to> be found there- to-day. 6618. Of course, this alien immigration question hast added enormously to the difficulty and complexity of your housing problem ?—Yes ; we have trebled our staff,, and are continually going on and going on, and it is quite an endless thing. You send a family on from house to house, and there is no finality about the pro- ceeding at all. 6619. And no hope of finality iso long a.s the influx keeps going, on ?^-iNo, because you have this state of affairs; your house accommodation does not increase ira proportion to your increase of population. 6620. In addition to the alien immigration, ancE although you have modern dwellings in the spaces that originally were occupied iby smaller dwellings, the gain is not as large as it appears to be ?—-r^^nt-.-mojnent. I had another inquiry for the piirpoise of this Commission, and I found there has been somewfoat of a drop, or else we did not get quite the rents that are being paid ; but the rents now given if we are told the truth, are 16s. 6d., 17s., and 18s.,-in place of 8s., 9s., a;nd 9s. 6d. 13 years ago. But it is more difficult now to get at the actual rents being paid, because the assessment authorities (have in some cases increased the assessments on the rental, with the result that you do not always get the actual rents told you— hat is, not the rents that are paid, in fact. 6635. We had. it from Dr.. Thomas that there is a custom pretty widespread of two rent-books being kept; hate you. ever come across that?—Yes, I have known, of such cases. 6636-i, A. high rent for the purpose of selling the pro- perty; a low; rent for the purpose of assessment I do.{not quite know what the high rent-book is for, but I know the low rent is for the Assessment Committee. 6637. There would be a natural tendency on every- body's part to keep the assessment down?—Yes, no doubt; that is not peculiar to the aliens. 6638. You refer in your statement to Jew house dealers .to whom you attribute apparently the responsi- bility for this tremendous appreciation in rents ?—Yes. 6639. But these transactions in house property are by no means confined to Jews, are they ?—ISTo, not only Jews ; it has become more or less a gamble—I use that as a term. ^ You see, a few years ago persons bought nouses for investment, and then let them, and they did not often change hands again till their leases ran out - put now you have repeated buying and selling, and an increase of rent every time. 6640. The enormous demand for house accommoda- tion has created a speculation in house property?— j-es. Speculation is a better word. , y°u the foreigner and Jew dealer Jr® ? considerable share, but it is not confined to them ?—No, not altogether. , Save these dealers you speak of or who l»ve -Win this country for sorjie time?—T know numbers of them 00™P»rftlvely modern times were immigrants buTTwf'..... I - than tllree 1 could mention, W f° I68"6 t0 do so> toless 1 am pressed. I f,"0W at least three cases m which not many years ago th^g p^iculajr persons landed in this country them- sfilves, I think T,: could name four. J 6643. Where have they got the money from to buy y j?oot these houses ?—>1 do not know. Apparently they can '' always get money on mortgage and deal in property. io July 1902 6644. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They sell again and make a profit and clear out ?—Yep. 6645. Then you say: " With the larger number of persons now requiring house acommodation on a com- paratively small area, rents have been increased to an entirely fancy value. This again tends to overcrowd- ing from the fact that the demand far exceeds the supply " ?•—Yes, I say that is so. 6646.." And is, especially hard on numbers of the working class whose wages have not increased in pro- portion." How does that act in Bethnal Green?—I should say it acts with special hardship taking the driving out policy, as it has been, termed. There are a large number of trades and industries who would suffer if the driving-out policy were pursued. For instance, the Spitalfields Market must be the centre for the costermonger industry. There are a large number of street dealers who live in Bethnal Green, who have to come to Spitalfields Market to get their vegetables; they must reside near their market. Then we have also Curtain Road, which is the very centre of the cabinet-making industry, and we have also hundreds i pfersons employed in the cabinet-making line, and their market is Curtain-Road ; they, again, must live close to Curtain Road. We have also a large number of dock labourers, and they must of necessity live near < the docks; and there is a limit to how far they can be driven out. In addition to that there is the clothing trade and the boot-making trade ; their markets are the large markets in the City, and therefore with regard to all those industries (and there are others) there is a limit to the driving-out policy, even if yo>u propose to adopt it and could adopt it. I say you could not adopt it from other points of view, which, no doubt, we shall come to directly. 6647. You are talking from a sanitary point of view entirely?—Quite go. 6648. You cannot go on driving these people out for several reasons, but that is one reason ?—Yes. 6649. What you have said just now as to hardship applies with equal force to the foreign alien popula- tion, and to the English population?—Absolutely. 6650. {Chairman.) You have given an instance of the costermongers having to dwell in the neighbourhood of Spitalfields Market?—Yes. 6651. Are they alien immigrants?-—Large numbers now are, but originally there were not so many. Practically we have got to this, that Middlesex Street, or what used to be termed Petticoat Lane, has now overflown, and goes on to Brick Lane, and Brick Lane has become a continuation of Middlesex Street. 6652. I want to know as to the trades, because in our statistics we have not many costermongers ?—There are,, as a matter of fact, I happen to know, in my own district, large numbers in Brick Laoie, and to-day where there used to be none, you will find a number in Green Street, that is a part of the Borough of Bethnal Green, and you will see them selling fruit and second-. hand clothes, crockery ware, iron ware, and things of that description. 6653. Are the cabinet makers in Curtain Road foreign immigrants, too ?—They are becoming more so, but not to such a large extent as in other trades. 6654. What we want to do is to distinguish between the alien immigrant question, as distinguished from the more normal condition of things in the country, and I want to kniow how many of these men in the different classes would be the proportion of the foreign immigrant to the subject born here ?—In the southern portion of our parish the alien cabinet-maker and boot- maker and tailor has practically supplanted the original natives altogether. Take round Hare Street, Bacon Street, and John Street. I do not think there is a British-born person in John Street to-day. 1 should not think so. There is a large number of aliens, and that proportion is fast increasing. 6655. (Major Evans-Gordon.) A great and useless hardship would be inflicted by driving out people for sanitary reasons ?—Yes. 6656. Then, another great hardship is the nati^ population being: driven out by immigrants flowing frum abroad ?—That causes discontent if nothing else230 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION*. Mr; J. Foot. an(^ men entertain ill-feeling. They do not like to be --- driven out to Walthamstow, and then find the street 10 July 1902, they are driven out of occupied by foreigners. 6657. You have pointed out in your statement: " This position of affairs has been taken full advantage of, and made the occasion for what appears to be nothing more or less than a sort of gambling in house pro- perty. Jew house dealers, who are artful enough to appreciate the situation, are found buying up pro- perty after property, and so soon as they are in posses- sion, the tenants get notice, and they have to pay in- creased rents or go." With regard to the hardship of the people being driven out by these increased rents, and the general feeling in Bethnjal Green, I want to quote to you what I quoted in the House of Commons from a lecture oil this question of alien immigration given by Mr. H. S. Lewis, of Toynbee Hall. You know him ?—Yes. 6658. I want to know whether you would be in agree- ment with what he says : " The main cause of the pre- sent unpopularity of aliens in East London remains to be stated. The inflow of the foreign Jew has brought with it an immense amount of overcrowding, the direct and indirect effects of which have been alike injurious. The number of families occupying one-roomed tene- ments is very great, too many lodgers are received, and illegally occupied basements are far too common." Would you agree with that ?—Yes. 6659. Then, Mr. Lewis, who is, I need not say, not an advocate of any restrictive measure at all, says: 'It is significant that some East End landlords, and not Jewish ones only, have publicly announced that they will not accept Christian tenants." Have you come across that?—I only know that, as a matter of fact, certain estates get into certain hands, and, as a matter of fact, every old tenant disappears absolutely. 6660. Then Mr. Lewis says : " The undoubted cause of this discrimination is that only Jewish tenants will be able to afford the rents demanded, and will pay these rents by overcrowding their houses. The bitterness of feeling caused by this infamous state of things can be readily imagined. I should have a word to say about the bitterness of feeling, but I think that I have said enough, to prove that these people are displacing our own people, and that the conditions which result from this displacement are of a serious and most dangerous character." That is Mr. Lewis's opinion. Would you agree with that ?—J agree in the main ; but, of course, I am not sroing so far as to say that overcrowding does not exist amongst our own people. I should say, as a matter of fact, the very fact that these numbers of people are still brought to this confined space does restrict the house accommodation, and again cause overcrowding among our own people. 6661. They are driven into neighbouring distucts and overcrowd there ?—Yes. 6662. Mr. Lewis also says: " The increase of foreigners has been extremely rapid in that part of the parish "—that is, Bethnal Green—" to the south of the Great Eastern Railway, and the consequent displace- ment of the English population has caused much bitter feeling aginst the new arrivals." You would agree with that, I suppose, that there is a great deal of bitterness of feeling 1—South of the railway I do not know that there are many of the native population left. I agree with him. 6663. (Chairman.) What is the meaning of " south of the railway " ?—South of the Great Eastern Railway. 6664. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The pressure has gone up to the railway, and over the railway now, has it not ? —Yes. 6665. Would you say that there have been, by reason of this immigration, a hardship and loss and injury inflicted upon English tradesmen?—Of course, that follows. Unfortunately, the Jewish population largely deals with the Jewish population, and it follows as a matter of course that hardship to many tradesmen has followed. I know of several. 6666. The English tradesman naturally loses his busi- ness ?—Yes. 6667. Then with regard to key-money. You say it is not so publicly demanded as it was a few months ago. Has there been a. check put upon it ?—I do not know the reason, and I do not profess to understand why, but you do not hear so much about it nowadays ; it is not such public property that enormous sums of money are charged for keys as used to be charged' twelve months ago, or a little longer. 6668. Should you say the inquiry here may have had some effect upon it?—Possibly. I have personally thought (it is a mere matter of opinion) it was perhaps on account of the action of the Assessment Committee. 6669. Would key-money be taken into consideration by the Assessment Committee P—I take it that key- money would be brought into the value of the premises. I do not know—it is only my opinion, for what it is worth. 6670. If you heard that £25 had been paid for the key of the premises, would you assess it higher?—I assume that £25 would be brought into> consideration on the question of the value of the house, and it would be assessed accordingly. 6671. You call key-money a form of premium ?—That is practically what it amounts to. It is termed so in the West-End parishes. 6672. It is a high premium paid in many cases for a very bad and broken-down house?—Yes. Not only that, but if you were taking a lease or an agreement or anything of that kind, and paid a premium, you would have a certain amount of holding, but these poor, wretched people have nothing but their weekly tenancies. They are at the mercy of the first man who chooses to dharge1 them a higher rent, and they must either pay up or go. 6673. The payment does not include any improve- ment in the house?—No. 6674. Is it not more or less a bribe for the person to clear out so that the other can obtain the house ?— I should call it taking advantage of a house, famine. 6675. It is symptomatic of the enormous demand for house accommodation ?—Yes. There is a house famine, and certain traders and dealers take advantage of it. 6676. (Mr. Vallance.) Who receives this key-money— does the landlord, or the agent ?—The agent probably, on behalf of the landlord. 6677. Not the outgoing tenant?—No. 6678. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Never?—I never heard of it. 6679. The evidence here has been that the outgoing tenant receives it in a considerable number of cases ?_ I know of cases where a tenant would not give up pos- session until he had been paid out, but the key-money I am speaking about is where the landlord would get it direct from the tenants. I have known several cases where a tenant says, " Until I get key-money, or call it what you will, I shall not go out." Then it is two or three weeks before the landlord can go to the court and get an ejectment process. 6680 (Chairman.) This keyjmoney would be, according to you, a premium to the landlord by the tenant as a term of allowing him to come in?—Yes. 6681. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And also key-money as a bribe, or whatever you choose to call it, by the person desirous of taking the house to the person in the house to clear out. ' (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That- is purchasing the tenant- right. 6682. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Supposing I go to you and say, " I will give you £5 or £10 to clear out of the house " ?—That may be plus the key-money. 6683. These things are all symptomatic of the one thing —the enormous pressure?—Yes. 6684. (Chairman.) Are these tenancies monthly or yearly, or what?—They are generally weekly. 6685. The tenant has to go out by notice within seven days?—Yes; but supposing they want particularly to get possession of that particular house, and the tenant is a weekly tenant, he cannot be ejected then and there; he must have his first and second notices, and the police court or county court procedure must take place. It must be three or four or six or seven weeks before he is really out. 6686. There is a legal process to be enforced ?—Yes, my Lord. 6687. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say, I understand, that all the existing machinery is really a dis-housingMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 231 machinery?—Oh, yes, absolutely; with the exception of Part 1 of the Housing Act, and that we do not en- force at all. We are not an authority under that Act; but I do say the unfortunate position of all existing machinery is that when you have done your best, and forced it to the bitter end, it is a dis-housing machinery, and it does not provide accommodation. When you have done your best and worst, you can simply turn people into the street—that is what it comes to. They may be fined in addition, but, from the overcrowding point of view, the ultimate result is the street for these people. 6688. And you, as an active authority in Bethnal Green, if with your full powers you succeeded in purifying Bethnal Green, to a great extent would simply overcrowd some neighbouring place?—Shall I answer that in this way, as I did when that report was made in 1808 ? Supposing to-day your tenement house regulations and1 your Public Health Acts were simply what we wanted them to be, and that you could concentrate an anmy of sanitary inspectors in Bethnal Green to-day, you would have to evict thou- sands of people to reduce overcrowding to a normal ex- tent. What that number of persons may be varies. I have seen it fixed at 5,000; I have seen it fixed at 8,000 and 10,000, and 12,000. Probably the larger number is as far wrong as the lesser number, but I should myself say to-day that to reduce the overcrowding to anything like normal proportions in Bethnal Green, you would want house accommodation for 7,000 or 8,000 people. 6689. And whatever you were to do would be nullified, to a large extent, by the constant inflow from abroad ? —If you turn out that 8,000, and 8,000 more come to the docks to-morrow, you have to begin again. This is an endless thing, and it is like a little game you play at Christmas called " General Post." You go on and on, and there is no finality to it. 6690. (Chairman.) You say there is accommodation re- quired for 7,000 or 8,000 more?—Yes, I am quite satis- fied, to make up for the immigration, the loss on trade premises, the railways, the School Boards, and the like of that, and to reduce our overcrowding to normal pro- portions, we should require house accommodation for 8,000 people. 6691. (Major Evans-Gordon.) To start with, and then you would have to constantly keep it up ?—Having got that, then would be the time to comm'ence to work these tenement house regulations, and then I say they could be worked with advantage; but you have such a mass of overcrowding, such a mass of people, that you could do nothing with them literally, except to take them by force and bodily put them into the street, or take them into another district. That is the only thing you can do to-day. 6692. You are not doing anything really seriously to abate things at all?—We simply keep them moving about. As our medical officer put it the other day, you put your hand in a padl of water and you shift the bulk, but you do not decrease it at all. 6693. This pressure of Bethnal Green and Stepney and elsewhere generally is felt in the neighbouring dis- tricts—say, Walthamstow ?—I should say, in answer to the driving out policy, that the driving out policy has been adopted, and has been in force for so many years that at last you have got to the limit now. I do not want to mention any particular district that is over- crowded, but, as a matter of fact, the outlying districts all the way round are becoming in parts as overcrowded as certain East End parishes. 6694. Then you have the additional difficulty of trana- ferring these people out there by train. Your train accommodation is insufficient ?—I believe it is a matter of common knowledge that the workmen's trains and the accommodation provided are absolutely choked up every morning. The driving out policy has been carried to such an extent that at the present moment the workmen's trains are not nearly sufficient. They were not in 1898, as a matter of fact. 6695. And the driving out policy has been largely nullied by the inflow from abroad ?—Yes. I have not . got it with me, but in 1898, arising partly out of what I have said in my evidence as to the number of persons put in the street, and also arising out of an unfortunate fire that occurred where a number of persons were burnt in a house in Dixie Street, seven or eight persons were burnt to death in a small house where there was over- Mr. J. Foot. crowding ; there was an inquiry that followed that fatal - fire. The result of that inquiry went to show that even July 1902. then the transit accommodation of trains and 'buses and trams, morning and evening, was not sufficient to carry the people out to and back from their homes and work. That was in 1898, and the increase has gone on and on, and as it was acute then, it must be much more acute to-day. 6696. Even this statutory standard of 300 cubic feet and 400 cubic feet living and sleeping combined, of course, is very low?—We only adopt that simply be- cause it is a legal standard, but, from a health point of view, 300 cubic feet for an adult is altogether totally inadequate ; but it is impossible to talk about more. Soldiers in barracks have 600 cubic feet. In hospitals they allow you 1,200 to 1,500 cubic feet. Three hundred cubic feet has grown up out of custom under the old Common Lodging House Act. That was the only stan- dard, and then it was customary to take 300 cubic feet, and from that 300 cubic feet we have accepted it as a kind of standard simply because it was 300 cubic feet, and th-3 only standard that has ever been fixed. Nobody pretends 300 cubic feet is a healthy standard, but it is the legal standard. 6697. (Chairman.) Where does the 300 cubic feet stan- dard come from?—I think it originally came from some of the old Common Lodging House Acts, of which there are several, back in 1855 or 1856. 6698. Where do we find that now ?—It is printed in the bye-laws now. 6699. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Take a room 12 by 12 by 10, what would that represent in cubic feet ?—You would get 1,440 cubic feet for living and sleeping, making it 1,500 cubic feet in round numbers. That would accom- modate five adults. 6700. So that in a room 12 by 12 by 10 you can get five adults legally living?—Yes. 6701. (Mr. V allance.) Nearly?—Nearly. In taking measurements for the cubic feet capacity in proceedings it would be " about," and if it is a little under you would not prosecute for that. 6702. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I make it 1,440?—Call it practically 1,500 cubic feet; on the basis of the 300 cubic feet you can have five adults sleeping there. 6703. (Mr. Vallance.) Is it within your knowledge that the standard of the 300 cubic feet as the area for sleeping in a room originated in medical expert opinion with regard to workhouses and poor laiw institutions ?— No, I am not aware of that fact. 6704. Long before the Common Lodging House Act.' was passed ?—No, I have not been back so far. 6705. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not think I need dwell any further upon all this question of machinery, which we have been into very closely, or with regard to the case of Weatheritt v. Cantlay and the bye-laws, but what I want to get from you is this : that all this, machinery at its best does mot go any length, or does not help us at all in the housing problem or the over- crowding problem ?—Not in the main. 6706. You may get a little improvement here and }here, but the bulk of it remains as bad as ever ?—That s so. You improve one street at the expense of another,, one house at the expense of another. That is prac- tically what it amounts to. 6707. With regard to the housing problem, I put it to* you as it seems to me, that, robbed of all the discus- sion and of everything that surrounds it, it is simply the relation between the number of houses available and' tha number of people you have to get into them?—It is. really a question of accommodation. 6708. And consequently, to solve the housing pro- blem, you must do< one of two things: you must either increase, and very largely increase, your housing accom- modation, and constantly increase, your housing accom- modation, or decrease the number of people demanding the houses ?—That is the way, there is nothing else. 6709. Our own problem of housing is a very serious one independent of any people coming in from outside ? •—Yes, the population is far in advance of our housing accommodation. 6710. The normal population ?—Yes. 6711. Apart altogether from people flowing in from abroad ?—Yes. As a matter of fact, may I put it in this232 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : uJfr. J.Fcot, way? This appears to me nothing more or less than | ; t;' " simply'ar branch of the housing question, which has be- 10 July 1902* come more acute in the East End of London in conse- u quence' of these immigrants. Then, if you take London as a whole since 1890, when the Housing Act was passed, the London County Council are the authority under Part I. of the Housing Act. Probably the accommoda- tion provided has not been more than sufficient on the balance to accommodate the persons who have been dis- turbed, so that with regard to the housing accommoda- tion, so far as-the London County Council or the other municipal authorities are concerned, it has been prac- tically stationary; it has not increased nearly in propor- tion to the rate of increase in the population—not nearly. ; Side by side with that has gone on, as I said just now, the loss on the balance caused by the trade premises, and. ; • things of that description. We are rapidly getting worse from the housing point of view. 6712. When these new buildings axe put up, and you • have referred to several here, ihey do not fall into , the occupancy of the English working classes, but in nearly all instances they come into the occupancy of foreigners ?—On page 2 of my state- ment, to take as an illustration Boreham Street and the block of Brick Lane, that abuts up to Boreham Street, right through the square block; • J knew that before any pulling down took place, and i ;;there was not a single alien on that area. The whole of the British population have been pushed out. They have gone somewhere, to use the words of Dr. Shirley Murphy, and to-day every one of the new houses are occupied (I do not believe there is one single exception) by aliens. 6713.. Therefore, in such schemes as that, what we are doing is to build up houses to provide for foreigners from abroad?—Unfortunately I am afraid that is so. 6714. {Chairman.) That is a portion of them?—Very largely. In the particular case I have cited it was all; but very largely that is so. 6715. {Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to a great . scheme like the Boundary Street scheme, how does that work?—We had to do with that. My medical officer made the representation, after a survey of the whole thing. 6716. There was an enormous number of English peopie displaced by that scheme ?—Yes. In the Boundary Street area there were 5,700 persons dis- 6717. (Chairman.) How were th.ey displaced, and for what cause?—It was a big improvement scheme in 1890. 6718- (Lord Bothschild.) Was not that inconsequence of the novel called "The Child of the Jago" P—I am sorry to differ, my Lord, but the position is the reverse. " The Child of the Jago" followed the improvement scheme. We mader a representation to the London ' County Couiicil immediately the Housing of the Work- ing Olasses Act came into force. " The Child of the Jafeo " did not appear till after that scheme. 6719. You may have made the representation, but it was " The Child of Jago" that made the County Oouncil move ?—I am afraid not. A large number of that population, of my own knowledge, were as described in " The Child of Jago," but, in addition to that/ I know some hundreds of families amongst them who were turned out—hard-working, respectable, decent people. 6720. (Chairman.) What I wanted to know was what caused them to be turned out. You say it was this improvement scheme?—It was an improvement varea dealt with under Part 1 of the Housing Act. 6721. In this improvement scheme was no provision made for displaced people?—No, they went where they could. Inquiries were made in the district round where there were empty rooms to be got, but, in the main, these persons had to go practically round about the surrounding districts. 6722. In any improvement that displaces a number of persons, is not there some provision for the dis- placed people? {Sir Kenelm Dighy.) Yes, if it is done under an Act of Parliament. There are always special clauses. (Witness.) If you disturb twenty houses or more, you have to provide for them. Might I say in this very , Boundary Street area scheme those people were turned out, and they went round about surrounding districts, where they could. Of course, no special district could be provided for them, and, as a matter of fact, only eleven persons, who originally lived in that area, have gone1 foack to it. They still remain absorbed in the then overcrowded areas around. 6723. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There were some things that it was a good thing to be rid of ?—-Yes. 6724. There were 63 persons in one street who had served varying terms of penal servitude ?—Yes. 6725. And the whole area was a well-known hiding pla-je for criminals of all kinds?—Yes. 6726. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The point is that in this Boundary Street scheme you have cleared a broad area, no doubt, and you have scattered the population, good and bad, into the neighbouring districts, and your ; splendid buildings that have been set up have attracted other people from outside. There were no aliens displaced in that Boundary Street area ?—No. 6727. But in the new buildings, do you find aliens? —Oh, yes there are several- Jewish families on the Boundary Street area at the present moment. 6728. Then I may take it from you that, with regard to this turning out policy, and what Dr. Shirley Murphy calls the strict enforcement of the sanitary laws, that is, in your opinion, no remedy whatsoever with regard to the existing state of things ?—Not in the present position of the housing accoinmodationi and the unrestricted inflow ; but, I o ?—It comes to this, that these Tenement House Regulations do not apply to the proverbial drop in the ocean. 6831. Why not ?—That judgment that I quoted. 6832. Surely you exaggerate the effect of the judg- ment? You put it in your evidence as 1 per cent., but in your evidence that you gave just now you isaid it ~was 20 in 800?—I say it would be probably not more than one per cent. 683,5. The effect of that judgment is this, that where you have a large house you cannot go against small houses if there is overcrowding in any part, but you ■must go against the specific tenement that is contained in that house ?—Yes,'and that is what we have not got. We have^ not got the rooms in one house with two families in each room. I said just now that had been exaggerated. I am not a lawyer, but we did take counsel's opinion. Our town clerk is a solicitor, and he took counsel's opinion, and on that opinion I say to-day that on our register we have got less than 20 houses where, in round numbers, we estimated to put a larger number. 6834. I quite understand your having on the register less than 20 houses, because it is only quite lately you have had any cause to register at all?—We cannot put on those that we have inspected. 6835. Why not? I cannot understand your inter- pretation of Weatheritt v. Cantlay?—I am sorry I can- not make it sufficiently clear. < 6836. As I understand, your interpretation of that judgment in Weatheritt 1^. Cantlay practically prevents not only in Bethnal Green, but all over London, the enforcement of these bye-laws Except—I make an ex- ception—in those few cases where the landlord resides with the lodgers—that is, in the same room, or the landlord retains some permanent control in the letting. For instance, if I let a lodger a room to-day, he occupies that room with his family. Provided in that room he does not take a lodger, he locks his door, and it is his G G 2236 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Ju^J» Foot own house, is it not, in the terms of this judgment? It! July 3902 ape advised that it is. ■ I.T'.. * 6837. Take the ordinary case of. a six-roomed house belonging to a single man, and he lets room No. 1 to an excessive number of people, and then lets room No. 2 to another excessive number of people, and No. 3 to another excessive number of people. Do you mean to say he cannot be proceeded against under the bye- law& f^Certainly, for overcrowding. - 6838* Is not that a common case ?—Members of more than one family, do you mean ? 6839. No, it has nothing to do with members of more than bne family, but there is overcrowding in that house, and it is one tenement because it is let tb one person.* Why cannot he be proceeded against?—He is, every day. 6840. Do you mean to say that the number of cases of that kind is anything like in the proportion you gave just now of 1 per cent., or 20 in 800?—No; I did not pretend that it was. 6841. Where does the difficulty off Weatheritt v. Ctantlay come in ? It comes in, I admit, in these large tenement houses, but where does it come in anywhere else ?—Not at all for overcrowdings but you have omitted the difficulty. You get the room overcrowded to-day-- 6842. That is another point. You say that you can- not enforce these bye-laws because of the judgment in Weatheritt v. Cantlay. That is the position you have taken up in answer to Major Evans-Gordon ?—I say sso, absolutely. 6843. Because it would only apply to an infinitesi- mally small number of tenements. That is what I am ■questioning. {Major Evans-Gordon.) He goes a great deal further rfchan that* You take a portion of what he says, but that is not all he (Witness.) May I ask a question? I understand you are under this impression, that supposing this room to-day is overcrowded, legally under the statute law a notice can be served and the overcrowding can be proceeded against, but the bye-law does not apply in that case. 6844. (.Sir Kenelm Digtiy.) Why not, if it is let in lodgings?—You say it has nothing to do with mem- bers of more than one family ; but you must get either the, landlordJiimself, or the lodger, or some other person in this room besides the one family, before you can make those regulations apply. 6845. The case I put to you was the landlord living in the house and letting five rooms out of the six to five different families. Is not that a case that can be proceeded against if you have the house regis- tered?—In. that case it does not necessarily follow that the house could be registered. 6846. Why?:—I understand they are in five different rooms, and five different families overcrowding five ■different rooms. I say that tne regulation does not apply to that house, and we are advised that it is so. We did not submit the question of five different rooms, but we submitted the question of four. Our point of view is simply thisi, that to make those regula- tions apply to any house, room, or part of a house, you must not only have that particular room overcrowded, hut you must have more than one family in it. 6847. I do not agree with you at all ?■—That is what We are advised, and we have taken counsel's opinion. 6848. {Lord Bothschild.) You consider that one iamily does not overcrowd ?—No, that is not my mean- ing. ^6849. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I am dealing with all these families as being lodgers in the ordinary sense of the term?—Let-us try another way to see if we -can understand one another. I should like to see if we could do so. Does your landlord keep in his own room? We have got the case of five rooms and four lodgers. Four of those rooms are let off, Does your landlord reside in his own room ? 6850. I will say he does ?—Then I say that that house is not registerable in view of the judgment given by the Lord Chief Justice. i, 685;[- Have y°u tried?—Yes, and we are met with this: liie first step is, we served1 a notice on the owner to provide the necessary material for registration We are met point blank with refusal, and they said, " We shall not comply, and you can summon us/' One authority did iii the West End of London, and the summons was dismissed. 6852. Your view is< that the decision in Weatheritt Cantlay is a considerable obstacle in your way?— Hightly or wrongly, that is our view. 6853. If that decision was taken out of the way by being overruled, or by legislation, that difficulty would be removed, or might be removed ?~Yes, that is why I say we want an amendment of the law. 6854. Now, with regard to one or two other mat- ters. You say that you want an amendment of the law. You say the machinery requires simplifying, and there should be a penalty for each day over- crowding is found to exist, not after two or three notices have been served and expired ?—What I meant by that was this : I think it should be an offence to overcrowd, and, being an offence, the penalty Would follow. It does not follow now, except under the bye-laws. Under Section 4, you have to serve a notice on the person " by whose act, default, or sufferance," and if he does not comply with the notice he is liable to a £10 penalty ; but the sanitary inspector is bound to serve an intimation notice under Section 3. Under 'Section 4, he is bound to report to his authority when that notice is served. Then, and then only, the penalty becomes enforceable, afid by the time he is served with the second notice, or the penalty becomes enforceable, the ctinditions may have changed. They may have gone out of that particular room and into another house or street, but still be in an overcrowded house. Then you .follow them on to that street, and there the same thing again has got to be done, and over and over again. 6855. You are speaking now of proceedings under the btatute as for a nuisance ?—Yes. 6856. Ycu will a^ree tfyat but for these difficulties which you imagine to exist-?—I am- afraid they are not imaginary. They are real difficulties to us. 6857. But for that you would say the proceedings under the bye-laws were far more effective and quicker ? 1 worked under bye-laws 17 or 18 years ago, and it is quite a modern idea to represent these bye-laws as providing a complete remedy for overcrowding. The first of these bye-laws was made under the old Sanitary Act of 1866, and as a matter of fact until quite recently, until ther house famine and the house question have become so acute, they used to be used largely for the case where two families or more used common closets and common staircases and) passages, where it was nobody's business to cleanse those passages or staircases, or to keep the conveniences clean. Twenty years ago, and longer than that, certain vestries used to use these bye-laws for that particular thing, and for the cleansing of the tenement. It is hard to prove to the magistrate's satisfaction that because a room has not been whitewashed for seven or eight years it is of necessity a nuisance. There they could enforce periodical cleansing and whitewashing as well as keeping clean the staircases and passages. I do say that those tenement house regulations are abso- lutely useful, and should be enforced, but to pretend that any kind of tenement house regulations that we have ever seen yet, however useful they may be, is any substitute for an active housing policy, I beg to differ most respectfully. 6858. It may not be a substitute for an active housing policy, but I suppose overcrowding would never have been remedied at all if steps had not been taken to make overcrowding illegal. Overcrowding in the earlier part of the legislation prevailed to an extent that was e?cefTof anything that now takes place in tne Ji/ast Jl/nd of London or anywhere else ?_Yes. 6859. There are terrible records of what took place at that time?—Yes. 6860. That was remedied by the enforcement of sani- tary laws to a great extent, long before re-housing schemes were thought of ?—If it was fever remedied. 6861. Even in the East End you had a terrible state of things when Lord Shaftesbury took up the matter?_ In given parts, but there is general overcrowding as against acute overcrowding in spots. 6862. If you have an even enforcement of the law first of all you put the existing powers of the law in force, and, if the, sanitary authorities enforce them with an even hand, may not the other be largely diminishedMINUTES JOE EVIDENCE. «or, at all, events, are we in a position to adopt heroic remedies till we have tried that?—Supposing you drive 1,000 people out of Bethnal Green to-day, and another 1,000 comes in to-morrow, and you go on as we have been going on since 1896 ; at all events, you -cannot say against our authority that they have not .tried to do their duty since 1896. Is it not almost useless to go on and on until you drive theon out. I ■ am not; advocating doing nothing, but you drive out to- day, and you find, to-morrow jthat more people come in, and you have to begin again. There is no finality .about it. 6863. But, supposing it was known that the law ,*a&£inst overcrowding was administered firmly, and not unjustly, would not that -of itself tend to prevent the overcrowding taking place at all', if they knew that, as soon as t&at overcrowding took place, the authorities Would be down upon them ?—Six years is a long time to give notice to the world at large that you are doing ;your duty. • 6864. I am not talking of six years ; I am talking of the effect of the even administration of the effective law properly administered P—If you could make it uni- form all, throughout England, 6865. Throughout London. We are not concerned with England now, but with the Metropolitan area?— - Does, it; mitigate the evil if you drive it on to Waltham- stow, Tottenham, or Enfield, as you have done, and are • doing?;: I-say, then, you have not reduced the bulk. Not that I care once I drive it out of Bethnal Green. „ 6866. You would let the Walthamstow man take care '■of himself?—Yes; that is the selfish man's point of view. 6867. That is, assuming the Walthamstow man will • do his duty as well as you do yourself?—He must pass it on to somebody else. - 6868. (.Mr. Vallance.) The position in which you are placed in Bethnal Green is, I take it, that, according to your computation, there is a population of some 8,000 in excess of the house provision?—;Yes. * 6869. But you also say that the difficulty is accen- tuated by the fact that the residents in Bethnal Green very largely have their occupations within, reach, and are Compelled to reside there, and to pay the high, rents?—-Yes. 6870. Are we to infer from that, notwithstanding the r alien immigration, the residents in Bethnal Green now are a necessary population, and that their labour is in demand within reach?—Unless you remove the fac- tories*, As things are to-day, yes. If you remove the : factories, the people could go with the factories, I take : it. 6871. Would an uniform administration of the law lead to a diminution of the number of factories within : such an area as that of Bethnal Green?—I do not fol- low you. 6872. If the enforcement of the law was so uniform : and so firm as to lead to a considerable diminution, if not abolition of the overcrowding, would not that dis- placement of a portion of the population lead to an . area within your parish being left for occupation by residents rather than for factories and workshops ?— As I understand it, the people of Bethnal Gren would be driven out, and that is what has taken place in fact. The people of Bethnal Green would be driven - out and aliens come in to-morrow. 6873. But the population you have there now is a s population which has its employment within reach?— Largely. 6874. For instance, Curtain Road for the furniture i makers. We know that in cheap furniture making the . alien is a considerable factor?—Yes. 6875. Then there is the proximity of the docks, and other employments, which you refer to. The al^ns are : required in certain departments of labour, and they are residing in your parish. Do you say they must reside there because of the proximity of their occupations?—■ Not necessarily aliens—I do not say that. 6876. But, as a matter of fact, aliens are largely • employed?—Yes, that is so. 6877. The bye-laws, which were passed in 1895, were not enforced at all till 1898, I understand?—No. . 6878. And between 1893^ and November, 1900, you took but few proceedings for enforcement ?;—Just so. 6879. Were those proceedings in any case against Mr. J. Foot those who were overcrowding rooms, but other than members of the family, or were they against members IP ^uly 190$.: of the family only ?—Against other than members of the family—both cases have occurred. 6880. Have you taken proceedings against members of one family for overcrowding?—Yes; I am prosecu- ting a man at Worship Street at the present time who has his family in one room. 6881. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Under the Public Health Act ?—Yes. 6882. (Mr. Vallance.) Since the passing of the Local Government Act, and the formation of the borough councils, how many cases have you proceeded against in Bethnal Green ?—I could not say ; they run into a large number. 6883. Have you got the numbers with you ?-—I have not got them with me, but, roughly speaking, I should say, for insanitary conditions of all kinds, our staff makes about 100 inspections a week, and these in round figures are followed by about 40 or 50 statutory notices, including overcrowding and insanitary condi- tions of all kinds. I could get out what proportion is for overcrowding.. In this particular year, 1898, we dealt with 102. cases entirely overcrowding, and that, figure I got out for that year's report. You may take it as a fair average year. 6884. And of the 102 cases, how many were neces- sarily proceedings before magistrates ?—For purely overcrowding, very few, because they moved out from that particular room, if it was into the next house, andi then that particular case was d'one with, as far as that particular room was concerned. There is a provision under the Act, that you can get a recurring order, but, I do not know the reason, the magistrates are somewhat jealous, generally, of giving recurring orders. They think they would be used oppressively, or some- thing of that kind. 6885. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is a power of closing the house?—It is to prevent the recurrence. When you have got rid of the overcrowding to-day, you have the order in your hand to-morrow. But the magis- trates seem to be rather jealous of granting recurring orders ; that is to say, each specific offence must have specific action taken, and, although the Act provides for it in -Section 4, it is very rarely you can get an order that, although the overcrowding is abated to-day, it shall not recur again to-morrow. I do not know why it is so, except it is thought that local authorities might use oppressively these powers'. 6886. {Mr. Vallance.) With regard to those cases, in which proceedings were taken in 1898 and 1901, how- many were taken under the statute, and how many under the bye-laws?—Only a very few under the bye- laws, because we only commenced to work them, when we got the board elected. We appointed the inspector about fifteen months ago, and he went through several areas, and that, of necessity, would take some weeks or months, and then we started to register those which we thought should be registered. We then got on, and registered a good many, and we were giving notices every day, calling on owners to supply the particulars for registration, and then we were met point blank with a refusal (we did not know why at first, and I ■ was recommending legal proceedings) to supply the necessary particulars, which is the initiatory step for registration. 6887. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That was after this case of Weatheritt v. C'antlay ?—Yes ; we did not know about that case really. 6888. (Mr. Vallance.) Assuming the difficulty which has been raised by the decision in Weatheritt v. Oant>- lay to be removed in practice, what would be your pre- ference with regard to proceedings—would you pro- ceed under the statute, or proceed under the bye- laws? You have already referred to the proceedings under statute as being cumbrous and dallying ?—Cer- tain cases offer certain advantages. Some houses are let out in tenements, and the landlord resides on the premises, and in those cases I should prefer to go under the Tenement House Regulations. 6889. Supposing all these difficulties were removed, and also the difficulties as regards the limit of rent in the bye-laws, what should you say then?—We do not limit the rent. 6890. What would be your judgment as to the uniform238 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : enforcement of the. bye-laws? Would it have the '—-r-_ effect of materially diminishing the amount of over- lO July 1902^ ci^owding in your district ?-^-It would have the effect -rsn"ifrr of. driving it about. 6891. Would it have the effect of diminishing it?— If jwe: could follow it up long enough to drive it right out.,:.;.v.':. .. ... .....■ 'fj ' \ Iii - practice, do you regard as a serious prac- tical difficulty the fact of having nowhere to place these •people, when you obtain an order ?—-Yes, quite so; we are met with this difficulty: that, in taking proceeds ings, both under the Public Health. Act and the Hous- ing of the Working Classes Act, magistrates have said "toj me,: prosecutor, at Worship Street, where I attend^ on behalf of the authority, "Is there anywhere for these-, people to go, or, shall we have the same scenes at this court that we have had already—will they cpme back' Here weeping and wailing that they are being put into the '-'street ?", Take that case mentioned in my evi- dence: there an order was made in February, but was: licit; as a matter of fact, executed till the following September ; and, during those six months, there were repeated adjournments at Worship Street Police Court, and these people were there crying and begging the magistrate to give them seven days longer, and another seven days,- and so on ; and at least one man actually went to prison simply for disobeying the order. 6893. Yet, "by special Act of Parliament, within your own parish .there is displacement of nearly 7,000 people by the closing of the Boundary Street area?— Perhaps our difficulties are so acute because of that clearance, 6894. But as a matter of fact, while there are diffi- culties in certain cases, yet within your own parish there Were -displaced some 6,000 or 7,000 persons in connec- tion-with the Boundary Street area, and no contem- poraneous provision, was made for those thousands ?—. That is the fact. Not quite all the 6,000 would have got into Bethnal Green, but the surrounding locality; the large/bulk, of the, 6,000 practically went into Bethnal (rr.ee.n and there was no special accommodation pro- vided for them. . 6895. These questions of overcrowding and the in- crease of rents act and re-act on each other ?—Yes. „ 689,6. Woujd not the strict enforcement of the law as Regards overcrowding lead automatically to a very material diminution of the rents?—I have heard that 3-rgued, but there is an argument both ways, I under- stand. « ; ' . 6897. Could a man possibly pay the rent which is de- manded for a tenement now if he was restricted to its occupation by his own family?—-No. 6898. And it is only by overcrowding that he is able to pay the rent?—Principally; but they use the room as a workshop, making the one rent cover the two ; there is that! to be taken into consideration, 6899; That would bo an explanation of how these aliens manage to pay these high rents?—To some ex- tent; 'and they work double hours, ' their standard of living is much lower than ours, and they have the one rent. , 6900. With regard to the George Gardens area in Bethnal Green Road, covering about 4 acres, was that a scheme by the County Council?—No; we were going to make, a scheme, but some private owners, some Jew builders, Mesisrs. Davis Brothers leased the whole four acres from the freeholder, iand commenlced to pull down before we couild take any steps, 6901.; There again, while you are face to face with the difficulty of proceeding by reason of the dishousm# of one family, there is a case of 500 persons dishoused without any interference on the part of any authority at all?—There could not be; it is buying and selling •between the speculative builder and the landowner. 6902. (Chairman.) I want to get two or three figures on tho notes for the purpose of reference: Are you aware that between 1891 and 1901, that is between the dates of the two censuses for that period, the houses in Bethnal Green decreased from 16,374 in 1891 to 14,000 An 1901?—I do mot know the numbers, but I do know that there was a great decrease. 6903. A decrease of 2,374 in that decade. I take it that! your population has remained stationary ?—Prac« iically. 6904. You may call it so in relation to the numbers r- —Yes. ' .....?... \ : " 6905.. The fact of those 2,374 houses being absent, an also to the action of the Danish authorities, and also to the publicity which this question has attained. 6974. (Chairman.) When was the report to the Danish . Consul ? 6975. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The report is on the Notes?—I have not the date. I believe it was sent from the Guildhall by the town clerk. 6976. (Chairman.) About when? Was it before you. gave evidence?—Yes, before I gave evidence. 6977. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What was the date of- your report?—My report, I think, was on the 3rd of June. 6978. We have got the report on the notes m extenso practically?—These boats bringing these immigrants- are Danish vessels flying the Danish flag, and there- fore the recommendation was made, in accordance with my suggestion, to the Danish Consul. 6979. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Libau is in Russia?—Yes. 6980. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They have expressed.:MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 241 ^ipieir intentioii of improving the accommodation and -dividing the sexes, and so far as possible altering the -arrangements ?—Yes, but might I point out that, ilthoiign these improvements are certainly minor im- provements, yet these vessels are not properly con>-( structed for the carrying of such passengers. They -allot a portion of the hold of the vessel for them, and in some cases even spare bunkers have been utilised^ -so thati; apart from the merely superficial and, minor •qaestiondf general cleanliness and a little provision •ci sanitary conveniences for the sexes, the present state of affairs?, I think, is likely to continue. 6981. As regards the existing accommodation as ^ described ift your report, it would be Impossible to alter these ailringements and do away with these unseemly -conditions on account of the absolute construction- of the si» jp ?—Exactly. 6982. It would be necessary to have different ships vor to reconstruct the ships internally completely in « order to bring about a proper condition ?—I think so. §98?.! Will you describe to us the existing evils oil these ships which you say are evils of construction in these ships?—These people are berthed in a part of the hold which was originally intended'to carry, and < on other occasions, in the absence of immigrants, o&rry cargo. The conditions necessary for carrying c&igo are absolutely antagonistic or opposite to what utfe required for carrying passengers. In these vessels there is not sufficient superficial area for the people "below; and in many vessels there is not even sufficient -cubical space, even taking into consideration the amount which is allowed by the Board of Trade for persons on ships, that is to say, 72 cubic feet per head. In these vessels there are no means of separation of rsexes or of married couples. In some there is not suffix oient light;. In one vessel it was absolutely dark, the only means of lighting being by the hatchway by which the passengers had access to their, sleeping accommoda- " tion. ' 6984. r Which would be closed in rough weather ?— Which might be closed in rough weather. There is :not sufficient closet accommodation, two rough wooden structures being erected on deck and used by immi- grants of either sex. Part of the hold of these vessels is occupied by ponies. The bulkhead between the ponies and the passengers' accommodation is defective, : inasmuch as it is usually a temporary structure which, if the ponies are, as they generally are, in the foi;e part of the passengers' accommodation, the natural • shear of the ship, that is to say, the bows being higher than ffie stern, allows the urine and liquid from the ponies to run down into the passenger quarters under- neath the teinporary bulkhead. I think those are the -chief objections. 6985. In any case these people would still have to -occuity the hold of these vessels ?—Yes. 6986. With wretched ventilation?—Yes. .'6987. ..Close to the horses ?—Yes., 6988. Practically often in perfect darkness ?—Yes, •-adjoining the engine room spacing. 6989. They would still probably have no means of /.removing their clothes?—No. 6990. And their food would still be provided for vuiider the- same insanitary conditions ?—Probably. 6991. No matter what you did with the ships?— . Just so. 6992. Now as to the remedies ?■—These vessels have i.a certain amount of space available for the carrying of passengers, and if it is intended they should continue to carry large numbers of passengers, it would involve almost the reconstruction of the ships. If you are "to l€|t;^>ut a part of the hold, it would mean that there t'sjtou}d be port holes in the side of the sliip, that there should be sufficient ventilation provided, that there • should be lavatory accommodation in order that people liright go and wash. The usual method, as I men- tioned oh the last occasion I was here, being the pro- vision of a bucket and a piece of soap, and people t>eing required to wash ini full view of everyone else. There is no privacy whatever—--no more privacy for these people ;than- there is for the ponies, ih $a&t they are "brought under practically similar conditions. 6993. What powers have you to reform .these things ? am afr&id I hSa/ve no power practically to reform 'these things. I can deal with it, as I have suggested ^t should be dealt with, as a nuisance, but the diffi- 6144. culty with that is, that immediately the people are landed and the place is cleaned up the nuisance is H. Williams. abated. — 6994. (Sir Kenehri Digby.) Is there any case in which ^ it has beeii dealt with as a nuisance ?—No, there is no> such case. 6905. {Major Evans-Gordon,) Will you refer to Question 6121, a question by the Chairman: " By Section 110 of the Public Health Act of 1891 it is en- acted: 'For ihe purposes of this Act, any Vessel lying in any river or other water witliin the district of a sanitary authority shall (subject to the provisions of this Act, with reSpecit to the po^t sanitary authority of the port of London) be subject to the jurisdiction of that authority in the same manner as if it were a house within such district..' Then, turning to the house-power section (1): ' It shall be the duty of every sanitary authority to cause to. be made from time .to time inspection of their district, with a view to ascer- tain what nuisances exist, calling for abatement under the powers of this Act, and to enforce the pro- visions of this Act for the purpose of abating the same, and otherwise to put in force the powers vested in them relating to public health and local government, so as to secure the proper sanitary condition of all pre; mises within their district.'" The Act gives power to deal with a ship as with a house ; but is this possi- ble, seeing that in one case the thing dealt with is a fixture, and in the other a constantly moving object? —It would not be possible to deal with this as a house.. The vessel, would arrive .at Gravesend, pre- sumably oil a flood tide, and assuming, as indeed is the fact in some of these cases, there is overcrowding, the necessary procedure to be adopted in order to deal with that would entail so much time that it is not practicable to deal with the question, I think. 6996. (Chairman.) As the law stands now?—As the law stands now. 6997. Without power of detention?—Just so. 6996. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I take it your conten- tion is that you are hampered by the fact that you have no powers granted you of' detaining the vessel ? —No, I would not like to go so far as to say that. What I had in my mind was this ; assuming there is overcrowding when the vessel arrives at Gravesend, if I wish to deal with that as a case of overcrowding under the nuisance clause of the Public Health Act, I must report that fact to my authority. If it is a matter of urgency, I have to call a meeting of my authority together. That would take two or three days. Then they would order a statutory notice to be- served on the owner or occupier, or the person by whose act or default the nuisance arises. 6999. (Chairman.) That is the captain?—Assume it is £he captain or the owner. By that time the nuis- ance is abated. 7000. By the vessel having got into dock ?—Yes, and landed the people, and had the place cleaned out. 7001. The people get into dock and they are off in a few hours ?—Yes. 7002. (Major Evans-Gordon.) If you consider Grave- senci as your place of-action, you cannot .therefore pos- sibly deal with the ship as a house?—No, I cannot. 7003. You must entirely depend upon the statement of the captain as to whether or not exotic disease exists ?—-No, because if exotic disease is likely to exist, I should inspect. 7004. Unless you have reason to suppose there is a case of illness on board which necessitates special inquiry ?—Quite so ; but if there is exotic disease likely to exist on board, the vessel will have come from -a place at which exotic disease prevails. We have certain knowledge of that fact -and we have ample authority, under the regulations of the Local Government Board as to cholera, yellow fever and plague, made the 9th of November, 1896. 7005. (Sir Renelrn Digby.) What Act does that refer to ?—Those are regulations made by the Local Govern- ment Board, under the Public Health Act, 1875, the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, and the Public Health Act 1396. It is Section 130 of the Public Health Act, 1875. 7006. (Chairman.) " The Local Government Board may from time to time make, alter and revoke such regulations as to the said Board may seem fit, with a view to the treatment of persons affected with H HM2; ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Df% cholera, or any other epidemic, endemic or in- 'E&WUfcfang*.- fecti-qws ':;' disease, and preventing the spread of —— ' cholera and such other diseases, as well on the seas, 14 J\ily l902. waters and rivers of the United Kingdom, and on the ' high 'fe&aS1'- within three miles of the coast thereof, as on laftd^ Then let lis have the 1691 Act 1—Under Section 82 of the Public Health Act, which relates to the prevention of epidemic . diseases, Sub-section^ 3 sayssanitary authority, shall have power to enteij pniany premises or vessel for the purpose of .exe- cuting 6r superintending th£ execution of any of the e^i*ifeniic regulations.^ . 7007. That is the regulations under the Act of 1875T —The epidemic diseases regulations made under the Act of,1875. 7008. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The Act of 1875 does not only apply to London But all bye-laws have to be made under that section. 7009. ^Chairman.) The Act of 1375 was general ?— ¥es. Then I may qudte Section 134 of the Act of 1875: " Whenever am part of England appears to be threatened with or is affected by any formidable epi- demic; endemic or infectious disease, the Local Govern- ment Board may make, and from time to time alter and retoke regulations for all or any of the following purposes." Then Sub-section 2 says: "For house to house visitation " ; and Sub-section 3 says : " For the provision of medical aid and accommodation, for the promotion of: -cleansing, ventilation and disinfection, and for guarding against the spread of disease." Those regulations have so fa* only been made in the case of plague, yellow fever and cholera. 7010. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Supposing a special medical officer was appointed by you, or acting under your instructions, to board vessels at Gravesend and to accompany the vessels to London, could you not tKen act, and would not your objection with regard to the removal of the nuisance cease to exist ?—-We should not be able , to take steps to deal with the nuisance, owing to the delay which would be incurred in putting the machinery in action. As soon as the people are out of the ship and landed, and the place in cleaned up, the nuisance is abated. Could not the legislature give the medical officer power to detain? 7011. iChmrman.) The first thing is to make it clear that^ you have power to stop a vessel coming up the river under full canvas. You go and board her, but the captain does not stop for you ?—I have no power except in the case of exotic diseases to detain that, vessel., .7012. .{Major Evans-Gordon.) You have power to enter but not to detain ?—Yes. 7013. (Chairman.) I am not quite sure about that when the vessel is coming up the river with full canvas, because she is not " lying in the river" but suppos^ ing they do not wait for you, and they finish the voyage with you on board, and if they choose to land at the docks, all the passengers go and. you cannot stop them ?—No, I have no power whatever. 7014. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Quite so; but if there is a special officer appointed, with power to detain, have you any practical suggestion to make with regard to the removal of the disabilities which you are now under ? —Then you would have to specify clearly what should be the condition which would lead the medical officer to detain these people. 7015. (Chairman.) You do not want to enter every passenger ship that comes to this country, to Folke- stone, or Doverj or even up the river ; but it is a certain class of ship, where there is a cause for investigation, that you want to stop ?—When they bring people of this nature. 7016. That is what you mean ?-—Yes, , my Lord. 7017. Would it do to say they must anchor for a cer- tain time, and not proceed beyond a certain part of the river until the medical officer has boarded them and investigated ?—That would do, my Lord, if the medical officer had power. There are three medical officers of the Port of London Sanitary Authority, who take turns on.:duty at Gravesend. There is always one medical officer on duty there. He visits every vessel from foreign ports, and would be in a position to select the vessels for the purpose of examination. He should have power to detain these vessels there for the purpose of exami- - nation. " 7018. The word " detain " wants something in front of it. Must it not be that the captain of the vessel shalll not be allowed to pass a certain mark in the river until his vessel has been boarded by the medical officer,?•—* Perhaps it would be advisable to utilise the expressions in the Local .Government Order;. 7019. Will you read those conditions?—" The master of any such ship, on being required so to do by the; Medical Officer of Health, shall cause the ship to be- brought to, and, if necessary, moored or anchored in some convenient place while the same shall be visited and examined ; but due regard shall be had to the safety of the ship and to the convenience of navigation." That is the regulation that is made in the case of exotic • diseases, and if this clause were to apply generally it- would, in my opinion, not interfere with commerce. 7020. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What about ships tra- velling with perishable goods, and so on, requiring,, prompt delivery ?:—It might be considered that if the owners or the master of a vessel found it profitable to bring 200 of these immigrants as passengers, he should be prepared to meet with some inconvenience, or even, possibly, some loss in the carrying of his perishable- goods. As an analogy for this, we will assume the- vessel has a cargo of perishable goods. 7021. (Chairman.) In addition to the passengers?— Without any passengers; and that the captain or the - owner, for the sake of gain, decided to bring, say, 20Q • cases of explosives instead of passengers. If he brings- these explosives, he would not be allowed to go beyond a certain point on the Thames below Gravesend. would be reqaired to bring-to there, to land these ex- plosives at Gravesend into barges, and then the vessel could proceed. So that the carrying of alien immi- grants and the carrying of explosives might entail deten- tion. 7022. It is analogous T£—'Yes; I put it as an analogous . case. 7023. Supposing that, either upon the explosive - vessel, or upon the alien immigrant vessel, you have got vegetables, or anything else that are perishable articles, have you anything, to say as to how the vessel should then be dealt with ; must those articles be sacrifW*^' —I do not think they would be sacrificed. It would probably mean only the detention, say, for a tide of 12 I hours, and as these vessels take five to six days in coming over, I presume articles of food that will stand. a six days' voyage would not be damaged very much by an additional 12 hours' detention. 7024. The first thing you want is to get rid of this . reference to your sanitary authority, and to give the - sanitary officer the discretion to act ?—I am an employe - of the sanitary authority, and in the wording of the- Public Health Act everything refers to the sanitary authority. 7025. Surely anything that causes delay in carrying, out the orders of the sanitary officer must be bad ?—Oh, . yes. 7026. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would you consider * that the carrying of aliens, of itself, would be a suffi- cient cause for detention ?—No; I do not think so> unless I had reason to suspect that there was infec- tious disease on board. 7027. I want to know whether you would recommend the appointment of a special officer to attend to, these- particular matters ?—'No, I think not; I think" it could be dealt with by exactly the same machinery and staff ' that are existing at the present time. 7028. And the obstruction in your way now* is the- absence of power to detain ; is that tfte point ?—Exactly (Chairman.) And to board? (Major JEvans-Gordon.) You can always board. 7G29. (Chairman.) You can only" board for a -certain< purpose ?—I have never met with any objection to board - ing vessels. 7030. You board in order to find whether there are- infectious diseases on board?—We only board, and inspect everyone on board when they come from places- where there are exotic diseases. . 7031. It is the question of exotic diseases and the class of diseases that come from specific portsbut it^ has nothing to do with alien' immigrants ?—No, not per se. , 7032. (Major Evans-Gordon.) ! understand, from what Mr. Hawkey has told us, and yourself, that every vessel coming into the Port oi London? is-j approached by mMinutes of evidence. 243 ^medical officer in a Customs boat ?—It is approached by the Customs. I think it is the Customs who have •the power. .^033.J There is a medical officer in the boat, and you "4sall out, " Is all well on board?" Then it is in the discretion of the medical officer as to whether he will accept the captain's story or whether he will not. He has absolute power to go up the ship's side if he wishes to?—He would always exercise it. 7034. lias he got any legal power, or not, to go on aboard of the ship ?•—I am afraid that is a legal question - which I cannot answer. v 70,35. {Chairman.) Whatever power you have got, it . is n a^isiijg in respect of any business, then at any hour when that business is in progress or is usually carried -on." 7038. Is there any definition of " nuisance " ?—-Sec- tion J 2 says : "Any house or part of a house so over- crowded as to be injurious or dangerous to the health • of the inmates, whether or not members of the same family." ' 7039.' (Chairman.) Then sub-section (i) says : " Is not kept in a cleanly state and toe from effluvia arising : fr<>m any dram, privv, earth closet, water closet" ?—* ~ Yeis. ' 7040. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you a general statutory right to enter premises for the purpose of detecting a : nuisance ?—Yes ; that is under the Public Health Act. ' 7041. (Chairman.) Which is the pcwer of entry?— 'Section 10. 7042." (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is not there a little ques- tion as to whether you have power to enter when, as a matter of fact, there is no nuisance there ?—You cannot "tell until you go in. 7043. (Chairman.) "For the purpose of examining as rto the existence thereon of any nuisance liable to be "dealt with summarily under this Act at any hour by '^day, or, in the case of a nuisance arising in respect of any business, then at any hour when that business is in progress or is usually carried on, and where under this Act a nuisance has been ascertained to exist." Has it been held that under Section 10 the sanitary authority -shall have the right to enter from time to time; is that fulfilled by the general authority given to the sanitary « officer, or does it go in each case to the particular autho- rity ?—«I have an annotated edition of the Public Health . Act, which says : " The power of entry here conferred may be exercised by any members or officers of the sani- - tary authority or any persons authorised by them gene- rally or in any particular case. See Section 115." "That section says :Where a sanitary, authority or their • officers, or any person acting under such, authority, -or uiider any of their officers, have by virtue of this Act power to examine or enter any pre- mises, whether a building, vessel, tent, van, shed, structure, or place, open or enclosed, they may examine or enter by any members of the authority, or , by anj -officers or persons authorised by them, either generally *or in any particular case." 7044. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Supposing the entry is re- fused,r then your remedy is to go for a warrant ?—The Temedy is to apply to a justice for a warrant. 7045. You have-not the same power as the Factory r Inspector, as if his entry is refused it is?, a, criminal ' offence No, I do not think that. If it is proved the refusal or failure is with intent to prevent th^e discovery of some contravention of this Act, I think it is an < offence. If you look at Section 115, I think you will ssiee that. . , v ,7046. (Major Evans-Gordon.) To summarise the mat- *6144. ter, you have an absolute power of entry of a ship ^ coming from a port where exotic diseases prevail?— jj WiUiwmi Exactly. __ 7047. An absolute power ?—Yes. 14 Julyi 1902. 7048. Whether^ there is a case on board or not, you can always go on board ?—Yes; 7049. Then you have the power to go on board the ship when she is in motion in cases of suspected nuis- ances?—Exactly. 7050. That is pretty wide, because with regard to;-cer- tain of these vessels you, would (always suspect' a :>nuis- arice ?—It is a very fair thing to suspect it^-a safe thing. 7051. If you were refused admission on board, you would have a remedy by going for a magistrate's order ? —-Yes. . 7052. And a magistrate's order on shore would npc be given unless you showed good ground for suspecting it?—I should probably have to make a statement on oath that I suspected there was a nuisance. 7053. But by the time you got your magistrate's order, your ship would have left the port?—Qr the ship would have got into the dock, and the. people would have all gone. 7054. And: the nuisance is abated?—Yes. 7055. You say a special officer is not necessary ?— No, not if we have the power to detain vessels. 7056. But supposing you have not the power to de- tain, would you recommend a special officer then ?—A special officer would have to be appointed. 7057. How would you be better off with a special officer then ?—If there is one medical officer on duty at Gravesend, he has other duties in connection with exotic diseases and infectious diseases to carry out, and if one of these vessels comes up, and he was on board going up to dock, the whole place would be left. - You would want a special officer detailed to carry out the work, and I do not know whether it could be done very well by one man. 7058. Because he would have to be up and down so often ?—There is so much uncertainty as to the arrival of these boats. Mr. Hawkey manages it, but I know that it practically means his giving up nearly the whole of his time to it, night and day. 7059. And he does not board them all?—No, he has to let some go, I know. 7060. Supposing you had your special officer, what would the procedure be?—I should like to ask what would be the conditions which would lead the medical officer to think it necessary to detain the ship. Would it be a question of general cleanliness of the passen- 7061. Broadly speaking (of course, I am speaking without any knowledge at all), I should say a ship in the condition such as you have described these Libau boats would be in, would be ample and sufficient reason ?-rrQuite so. 7062. The mere appearance of them would be enough ? —Yes. 7063. (Chairman.) To detain would be no remedy un- less you sent back ?:—Then what are you going to do -with the passengers when you have so detained them ? 7064. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Quite so. Would not the mere fact of movement in this direction—in fact, the mere discussion of it here—have an immediate effect upon the ships ?—I think probably if we had power to detain these vessels for inspection, it would mean probably that these people would be provided with; better accommodation almost forthwith. 7065. They would not ever run the. risk of being de- tained. Once they knew there was a power to detain, you may be sure they would put better ships on the line ?—Yes. 7066. (Chairman.) The immediate remedy, in order to produce a deterrent effect, would be to send ships back, and not allow them to enter the port ?—That would be the remedy, but a very drastic remedy. 7067. But it would be deterrent for future vessels. It would prevent the people at the port sending vessels over here ?—Yes, my Lord, if that were done in the case of one of these vessels arriving here with a general cargo, perishable and otherwise, and if she were found carrying passengers in excess of a certain number, and H H 2244 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr. if they were not provided with & minimum of cubical Mi Williams, capacity and superficial area, or with proper sanitary — conveniences, or in a proper state of personal clealili- M July 1902. ness, and if that vessel were prohibited from entering —--the port, it would stop it straight-away. 7068. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Probably) if notice that it would be done after a certain date were? given, it would be sufficient ?—Yes. 7069. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They could prevent the people in a filthy or unwholesome condition landing, or insist on their being detained till that condition was remedied, and the doctor could certify that, if landed lii that condition, they would be violating the section relating to the public health and local government?— Yes. 7070. (Chairman.) Detaining people in a filthy con- dition will not remedy anything that is deficient in the structure of the ship. That could only be done, as the witness says, by saying you shall not enter ? 7071. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, but all these powers to; interfere would lead to an instant improve- ment in the ships and in the condition of the people, would it not ?—Yes. As I said, in my evidence given On the previous occasion, there is a great, improvement in the condition of these people now to what it was in 1892 or 1893! I have here a copy of a report which was furriislied by Mr. Hawkey to the Board of Trade, as illustrating the condition of the people at that time. He was reporting upon the poor Jews temporary shel- ter at 84, Leman Street at that time. This is not a certified copy, but I have no doubt it is accurate, and these ire his words The shelter, 84, Leman Street, is a charitable institution, furnished with 60 beds; its object being, as its name implies, to shelter and supply with food needy Jews who arrive here without addresses. If this were done the institution would be a boon, not only to Jewish immigrants, but also to London, as the immigrants would be protected from crimps and sweaters to a great extent, and much of the misery occasioned by the activity of these persons, saved. I regret to say that this is not done. The beds of the shelter have not been occupied for years, the reason being, as the superintendent, Mr. Smith, himself told me, that the immigrants were so dirty that the com- •iriittee found' it better to ha,nd them over to lodging- house keepers, who, he remarked, were glad to have them." That is an extract from Mr. Hawkey's report. 7072. (Lord Bothschild.) In 1893?—Yes, 1893. They were received in the shelter at this date, I believe, and have been since 1895. 7073. (Chairman.) You were going to tell us the con- dition you have seen lately ?—t-In 1892 and 1893, as a result I believe of the medical inspection, and because some of these people had to return to Hamburg, there was a great improvement in the general, state of cleanli- ness of the people. 7074. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Resulting from sending them back ?—I believe from sending them back. I have here a copy of the certificate, which is issued by the German authorities to German bpats sailing from the Port of Bremen, with immigrants on board :—" I, Doctor .................., being a physician and medical in- spector, do declare and certify hereby that the ship bound to carry immigrants from this place to London, has on this day undergone an inspection from me, and that the examination and inspection have proved that among the immigrants, officers, and crew Of the said ship, there are no persons infected %ith any contagious disease, or any persons so ill that their voyage onwards might appear hazardous. The children have been vac- cinated, as far as was practicable, and th« captain, in order to complete their vaccination, has been supplied both with the necessary sound lymph and the requisite directions." Then the third provision relates to the medicine chest. 7075. (Chairman.) That does not place any restric- tidn on the number carried, or the number of cubic feet of-air space ?•—No, this is a general medical certificate of the examination at the port of embarkation. 7076. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is that under any recent legislation ?—I am not prepared to say. This certificate is dated the 10th June, 1902. 7077. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Some people were sent back in 1893 ?—I will not say sent back, but not having sufficiently good addresses they were detained on board the vessel for production or verification of these addresses, but the ship having to sail back in 48 hours, the captain decided to take them back with him. They- were not sent back ; they were taken back. 7078. In these cases of sending back, whom do you Say the authority to send back, or leaving them on board, ought to rest with?-—I think probably it would be necessary to have a magistrate's order for sending the* people back? ' 7079. ^Detention on board practically means sending them back, because the Captain takes them back?—• That is so if the captain is under a heavy penalty not to land them. 7080. (Chairman.) It is our refusal to allow them to- land that represents the remedy, because they must do something with them, and it is the captain who muSt do something. Let him do what he likes so long as they do not land in this country ?—Quite so. 7081. (Major Evans-Gordon.) "With regard to the- power of refusing to land, do you say you would have^ to get that from the magistrate as well?—No, I think that should be done probably by the medical officer. 7Q82, So the magistrate would not come in *—No. 7083. There has been a recent case in which a man * has been sent back owing to the magistrate's action. Do you know anything about that ?—I have no know- - ledge of it. 7084. Mr. Mead sent a man back, I believe, or told him that unless he returned to his country he would imprison him for the offence of mendicancy ; so lie* Went back. He had a considerable amount of money in his pocket. At Question) 6132, you were asked by the Chairman, " Where do you get the power to inspect a dirty individual? (A) It is an order of the Local, Government Board." Then at Question 6133, "under what Act is that—that is not an Infectious Disease. What we are upon is the arrival of these filthy people coming in, what power have you to inspect these persons ? (A) i That which Major Evans-Gordon has referred to was an order under regulations made by the Local Government Board under the Public Health Act." Have you any- thing further to say on that matter?—-Article 20 of the Local Government Board Regulations says, "Where a ship is not ascertained, or certified to be infected, but has passengers on board who are in a filthy or other- wiseunwholesome condition, or has come from a place infected with cholera, yellow fever, or plague, the Medical Officer of Health may, if in his opinion it is desirable with a view to checking the introduction or spread of cholera, yellow fever, or plague, give a cer- tificate in duplicate in the following form, or to the like effect, and shall deliver one to the master, and re- tain the other or transmit it to the Sanitary Authority: — Certificate. .day of...............,189... ...District (or Town) Council or .Port Sanitary Authority. I hereby certify that I have examined the ship......... from.............., now in the port of..............., and that» such ship has passengers on board in a filthy or other- wise unwholesome condition {or has come from an in- fected place), and that in my opinion it is desirable, with a view of checking the introduction or spread of r cholera, yellow fever, or plague, that the persons on board such ship should not be allowed to land unless they satisfy me as to their names, places of destination, , arid addresses at such places!" The words " filthy or otherwise unwholesome condition," must be read with the words " with a view of checking the introduction or spread of cholera, yellow fever, or plague." 7085. (Chairman.) I think so. It is clear it is aimed at infectious diseases ?—Yes. It was because I was ad- vised that this was aimed at infectious diseases that the- - inspection of alien immigrants ceased about 1,895 or - 1896. 7086. There being no suspicion of infectious disease ? ' —There being no exotic disease at the ports they came* from. . 7087. (Major Evans-GordonDoes that alter your ■ answer to the Chairman's question at 6139 at all.?—Yes, that is under Section 130 that I referred to. The Local! Government Board could apply these powers, but I think only with a view to regulating the introduction of "r infectious diseases.MINOTES OF EVIDENCE. 245 7Q98. Otherwise iiot?—Otherwise not. 7089V1 ) ^©dTaJt'd^^-yoTi. tell us if the cus- tom ofv the Fort of London is siinilar to Southampton- with regard to tho medical arrangements? ?-—They are not the saaney because in the Port of London the Port of London nSasjpcitary- Authority is, I believe,, , the only authority ^ichkeeps- a staff of medical officers to visit every incoming ship from foreign. 7ti901 Is a ship coming to the Port of London found to exhibit a yellow flag Tike a ship coming to the !Poft of Southampton ?-^Not unless she is an infected ship within the 'meaning of these Local Government Board Regul&tidiis. ' 7091. If she is infected within the meaning of the ......~ ~ ~ " * " ' >? yellbw flag quartered with black quarterings. 7092. Supposing a ship came into the port of London flying a yeiloy flag, would you allow the same thing to happen in London as happened at Southanap- ton on Saturday last ?-i-I am not aware of whait hap- pened at Southampton. - 7093. As fa;r as I can make out from the papers the ship "Oratava" came into Southampton flying tlie yelloW £ag ?r-^Quitie soi ' v"' ,7Q9^. They were thenj notified there was a case of small-pox on board ?—tQuite so. 7095. Notwithstanding there being a case of small- pox on board, all the passengers were allowed to land-? -^If the medical officer of health saw no reason to suspect that fithese passengers were infected in .their clothing, or did not require disinfection) he had no p<>$er iossjjop them from landing. 7096. I want to know that; May we take it that unless the. passengers are. in direct contact with the person who is illy and unless, the medical officer ihas reason ../t-o suspect, that they have ; caught i the disease, there is no power to stop them?—I should not stop them in the port of London. 7097. Therefore the arrangements are; very similar ? -—Yes. ., - 7098. (Chairman.) They are under the same law ? —Yes. •'"' 7099. (Lord Rothschild.) I think we have understood from you that the condition of alien immigrants is, to a great extent, due to the bad accommodation on board the ship ?^To a large extent it is. 7100. I think you do acknowledge that the accom- modation is better now than it was in 1893?—Yes, on German vessels. * 7101. (Chairman.) And Danish!—No, only German and Dutch vessels. 7102. (Lord Rothschild.) I suppose you remember the case that occurred in 1893, th&t occasioned so much excitement in the East-end ? There was the case of a ship called the "Hamburg" that arrived on the July 6th iii London^Will you give me the instances ? , This - is the .^tatepaent wliich has been given to me; 0$ Thursday afternoon., J!uly 6th, 1893, the ss. " H^m^urg ainpiy«d in London from Hamburg carry- ing 113 immigrants, and although there was no illness on- jbhe captain was served with tlie usug,l no- tice, not'to allow any of: them to land. The cargo was siibse(|uehtly discharged, aiid fresh goods reshipped for Germany, during the time- of which the people were bound - to! remain^ oil dfeck in a rope; enclosure, to the ex- posure of the burning sUiiy and in a state of starva- tion, and as the captain had brought them to their des- tination he; refusedi to supply then* with food> and fche$ were not discharged till Saturday. nigW, as usual* in two b^tphes,, the Christians first and; the Jews; much latere until the missionary Levin^ki, wjio acted; as in- terprat?r to the; collector • of statistics*. had finished preaching the Gospel to them—a fact, which no doifbt |)r. ^ilHairiS; willrecollect. On one of the ^winter days of'the same year, when the River Thames was frozen,, the ss. " Jessica' arrived from Hamburg with some, 30 immigrants, women and children inclusive, They we?et kept ,bn ideck fpr 36 hours, and were nearly frozen to death #Jieii tlie sanitary authorities ^rrfrM to discharge them. It is, therefore, hot surprising iii fiie4!$a§#^t$tat ^these^ jjec^ple1 werenot1 so clean when leaving the boats, especially when all their clothes (even new clothes) were burnt by; tfie sanity authori- ties, and consequently tjiey bad no clothes to change ? jyr, -—This is new to me. I ain not familiar with the facts. R. Williams. 7104^ (Chairman.) Is this within your jurisdiction ? u Julv 1902- —Yes ; and these people were probably detained by the authority ; but it merely illustrates the fact that the vessels bringing these people have not proper and suffi- cient accommodation to carry them ; otherwise the people, if they had had proper accommodation, food and such like, should have been perfectly happy lying in the dock as if they were at sea. 7105. (Lord Rothschild.) Whether this is an exag- geration or not an exaggeration, I suppose there is a certain amount of truth in it, and you would admit that the accommodation now is much better than it was in 1893 ?-—Certainly. 7106. (Chairman.) Is this a German boat?—-That was an old German boat. I know the boat. 7107. Is what Lord Rothschild has put to you likely to have occurred ?—I am not prepared to say that it did occur. I know these people were detained, but I think it is unlikely that the master of the ship would refuse them food. I do not think he would be entitled. to do that, or that they were roped on the deck. It would simply mean that they probably came over partly on deck, and that the vessel was not fit to carry people. 7108. (Lord Rothschild.) I think in your evidence before you said that the alien immigrants who came, over here in 1894 had a very nasty smell Yes. 7109. Would that be accounted for by the fact, or could it be accounted for by the fact, that they were brought over in boats which also carried large quantities of un- tanned skins and various things which smelt ve?y strongly, and, therefore) their clothes and all their luggage got contaminated ?—I do not thiitk 40, biit: if it were to be explained by that fact, it would seem that these people were placed in the holds of the vessel with the cargo, and this would simply be another example of the conditions under which these people are brought. 7110. I do not know if this statement is correct or not, but as it has been given to me I am bound to put it to you. Have you heard that the bulk of the passengers arriving by the boat "Georg" from Libau, were not passengers who intended to stop here, but were going through to America and Africa ?—■What date was this? 7111. In 1898. That was the time when there was a case of small-pox?—I am not aware. The question as to where they were going at that time would not come before me. 71(12. (Chairman.) Are these vessels mostly steamers ? —All steamers. 7113. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you had much prac- tical experience of the diseases introduced by these people, notwithstanding the bad conditions ?—-Do you mean infectious diseases ? 7114. Yes ?—Do you wish me to tell you of any specific instances. 7115. I want to know whether the evil results,, which you might expect from these conditions under which they coine really occur ?--£ think I explained point in what I said before, namely, that I did not think, speaking generally, .there w^s mucji in- fectious disease introduced- 7116. (Mr. Vallance.) With regard to the case of small-pox which ca^ie from Paris, was that the case of a steerage passenger?—I .think not. I have not the facts absolutely. It is a tiding whicfy is within general knowledge, but I could quote cases where a man has been landed from a vessel and subsequently developed small-pox from whicfrr 30; or ,40 cases have occurj^L It is an absolute fact that a person may be landed f|$m a vessel while incubating an infectious disease, and may develop it at the |>laee to which he or she has gone,. and that may lead to a :serious epidemic. I thi^k; this arose out of a question which I was askedv^y^Migjor Evans-Gordon, the point ' being whether if disease exists in this country, what I may call indigenous disease as opposed ,to exotic, whether that should: be a reason for merely not imposing regulations, and I said my opinion was it should be no reason whatever, and that all cases of infectious disease should be treated from the same standpoint; that is, to prevent them spreading, and subsequently developing in this country.BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr. 7117. Is that with reference to thfe case of three Ji Williams. children suffering from small-pox to which you refer --- in answer to. Question 6096. It is possible there that 14 jnly 1902. the incubation period had not commenced so as to ::- be discoverable by any medical man at the port of departure ?—Certainly, one and probably s two of those children came on board the vessel with the rash of small-ppx out,, upon them. 7118. . With regard to the appalling condition in which immigrants are sometimes brought into the port >of London, are we to understand that, your description alone applies to those brought from the Russian port 1 would not say that they could not be improved, but they might be taken, I think, as a fair sample. 7138. Supposing you had now yourself to draw up regulations, first, as to the structure of the vessels, what subjects should you deal with—cubical contents of air space?—It would have to be cubical capacity, superficial capacity, lighting, and ventilation, means of personal cleanliness, separation of sexes, because if we do not separate the sexes they will not strip and wash, one in the presence of another. Then you must- provide the proper sanitary conveniences. 7139. You say the Bremen ships are a great improve- ment on the Libau ships?—Certainly, 7140. They are capable of improvement ?—I think they might provide more cubical capacity. That is a statement which would apply to every passenger ship and every ship. 7141. It would be easy, or comparatively easy, to erect that standard, and say a vessel must be con- structed to that standard for the purpose of bringing alien immigrants to this country, and if not so con- structed it would not be allowed to deliver the people over the side of the ship. That you could say ?—That; is possible. 7142. Is there anything you can suggest as to what could be erected as a standard for the personal cleanli- ness of these persons ? You say persons come with vermin ; have you anything to say as to how you could deal with them, or must that be left at large to: the dis- cretion of the medical officer?—That would have1 torbe left to the medical officer ; but if they had vermin it is perfectly easy to get rid of the vermin. It is only a question of taking their clothes away and baking, them for a couple of hours., .7 7143. I want to know what practically could be done... Supposing a person has only the clothes he is standing up in, and he is covered with vermin ; what practically do you suggest ?—-I would suggest, if a person is found in a verminous Condition, his clothes should be taken away and disinfected by heat with a view to destruction of such vermin, and that the person should be properly cleansed. 7144.. And other clothes supplied?—That would be the thing to recommend ; but at whose expense should that be? 7145. Gould that be imposed upon the only persons here,, namely, the captains of the ships ?—I do not think you could impose that on them. 7146. Could you say, if the clothing is not supplied, the verminous passenger must be taken back ?—-Why not say his clothing should be subjected to heat with £ view to the destruction of all the vermin ; and' if the clothing is fairly clean, why should he not put it on again1 f * 7147* You might have a series of conditions framed in some way or other, saying that no such person is allowed to land ?—I think there is an Act called the Verminous Persons Act. I am not familiar with that Act> and I do not think it applies to the port of London ; but why not legislate on those lines ? . , t 7148. (Major Evans-Gordori.) That is a. voluntary Act'( -I believe so. < ! . 7149. (Chairman.) Hay & you anything to suggest as* *A MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 24?.. to anyjprovision that could be made throwing upon cap- taiiiSj Who representthe owners of the vessels, the re- sponsibility of finding some habitation for these people when they iand/ 'or would y leave that as it is?— I think that should be feft as it is. I do not think that iwould" be practicable legislation. 7150. But even so far as you have made suggestions, if they were carried out you think they would have the ^effect of bringing the alien immigrant to shore in a condition that would not, so far as his physical condi tion is concerned, injure the Englishman here ?-—I do not think m- 7151. That mtiher reduces the objection to an economic suggestion rather than a sanitary one ?— jQjiitesoV; ■' MmttowM.) Cquld this fumigation be car- ried out on board ship No; because it ^aneans heat, unless a ship carried a disinfecting apparatus. Oh board these small vessels they would not have space for it. ' ,. , j 7153. If yo.u found eight or ten verminous passengers on board, it is probable the apparatus with the super- jyr heatea steam would be occupied for a considerable jy. Williams, time?—We have frequently to disinfect the effects of between 200 and 300 people at Gravesend. ... 14 July 1902. 7154. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Is there any other point ....... you would like to mention before you gp?~No ; I think I have nothing further to say. 7155. (Chairman.) Do you see any change in the general class of immigrants since 1893; do they appear better or worse, or are they the same class of people 1 —That question has occurred to me, my Lord, and 1 am not prepared to say that they are not a slightly better class than they were "at that time. . On fully thinking it out, they certainly are cleaner. In the absence of any personal knowledge at the port of embarkation as to the mode of living and position in life of these people. I am not prepared to say absolutely. 7156. But, on the whole, you think they are better? —They certainly look cleaner and much better. (Chairman.) The Commissioners are very much obliged to you for the assistance you have given them. Br. Daniel Lewis Thomas, recalled ; and further Examined. ■' '7157. {Mdjor Evans-Cordon.) I had practically com- pleted my questions to you, but I understand since you have given evidence you have had an interesting ex- , rperienee uwithV^regard to Waterloo Place ?—Yes. 7158: Am T. right in saying Waterloo Place is a part of St. George's-in-the-East, largely inhabited by aliens ? les. ' 7159. It has received the earnest attention of the sanitary authorities ?—Yes- 7160- With a view to removing the nuisance of over- crowding and so on?—Yes. • 7161. And prosecutions have taken place in Waterloo .Place?—-Yes, I mentioned this in.my last evidence.. 7162.' A good number of prosecutions took place ?— Ten were summoned. 7163. Under the Public Health Act?—Yes. 7164. They not being registered lodging houses ?—- Yes. In fact, there was overcrowding in all the houses in Waterloo Place, but we found it necessary to take proceedings in ten. In the remaining houses the overcrowding was abated by statutory notices. 7165. And were fines inflicted ?—Fines were inflicted. n 7166: Were the fines paid?—-In a few cases the fines and costs were paid. In a few cases the fines were paid, but the costs were not recovered. In two cases neither the, .fines nor., the costs were recovered. . 7167. When were these proceedings taken ?—I" think it was about March last. 7168. At all events, the nuisance was temporarily abated ?-yiYes, /because these people had to clear out of their houses, : : . 7169. And since then you have had these houses re- inspected, I understand ?-r-Yes. 7170. Wh£n ?—Within the last three weeks. 7171. You fount! the condition of affairs almost as bad as it was before you ever began acting at all ?— We found overcrowding hot in all the houses, but in eight of the'houses; !' . 7172. Eight^of the ten?—Eight of the 21. 7173.. So that in eight of the 21 houses the condition of things had reverted to as bad as it was before ?— Yes ; that is, the families that caused the overcrowd- ing were removed, and they were replaced by other families who also caused overcrowding. 7174. Different people moved in ?—Yes. 7175., You did not find the same people moved back ? •-^b. . ... 7176. But different people had moved in ?—Yes. 7177. You would use this practical experience as an illustration of the somewhat hopeless nature of the task of clearing these places out ?-—Yes, so long as we stop «the overcrowding or prevent it re- curringj because if we get rid of one family it is replaced by anothejp family, and the family that come in knows nothing at all about what we have done to the previous tenants, and so the thing goes on. 7178. (Chairman.) You have a remedy against, the owner, have you not?—We take proceedings against the person who causes the overcrowding, or by whose act or default the overcrowding is not abated, and in most cases we take proceedings against the occupier/ 7179. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Whatever proceeding you take you abate the nuisance, and then on it comes again?—Yes. 7180. You have no power tp prevent people coming into the houses ?—No. 7181. To that extent your labour and expense have been thrown away?;—Yes.. 7182. With regard to your establishment, we had not the, figures exactly as to what the present sanitary establishment of the Borough of 'Stepney costs?—The present salary list, excluding my own, is £5,998, reach- ing a maximum of £6,448. That is for inspectors, clerks, staff, and disinfectors. 7183. I think you and Dr. Shirley Murphy both agreed that a very large increase of the staff would necessarv to carry out these stringent enforcements of the sanitary law which nas oe>en suggested as a remedy for this matter ?—That is not quite what was said. What I said was that if we are going to register, or to increase the number of registered houses let inf lodgings, we should have to increase the staff. 7184. Then we come back to the same question?— But we have got sufficient inspectors to deal with %he matter in the ordinary way ; but if we are going to do* away with the overcrowding altogether, I think we- should have to proceed under the bye-laws, and then we should have to increase the staff. 7185. But with your increased staff and your bye- laws, do you then see any finality in the problem ?— No, I do not. 7186. Even with these improvements ?—No, even if you increase the penalties. For instance, the Food and Drugs (Amendment) Act increases the penalties three- fold almost, and even with that it has not had any in- fluence whatever in reducing the amount of adultera- tion ; and in whatever you do you will never get rid of adulteration of food, neither will you get rid of over- crowding so long as there is any profit attaching to> illegally occupying these premises ; that is to say, an illegal rent that can be got from the overcrowding £ it will be a temptation to the landlord. 7187. All this machinery that we are discussing herp seems to me, at all events, not to touch the source of the evil at all?—-No, it does not. 7188. As I put it to Mr, Foot the other day, it seeing to me to be a housing problem, and an overcrowding problem which is simply a problem of the numbef of houses you have got and the number of people you have to put in them?—Yes. 7189. And if people on the one hand increase rapidly, and the houses are not increasing rapidly, you will get your overcrowding in one place or another, no- matte* what you do ?—That is so. ' 7190. And also ^ with regard to the penalties, I under- stand the penalties are inoperative, inasmuch as you Dr. D. X. Thomas~ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Jnot get the penalties out of the people when you inflict them ?—No. mfrL. Thomas. 7191. You do not get the fines, and you do not get 4. July 190-/. costs ?^-No, .people leave the premises, and it is not wortji while following them up in order to sell their goodl and chattels up. 7192. It is no use kicking, a dead dog—r-there is nothing much to get out of them ?—No. 7193; Your statement, I think, has been contradicted since,:or I have seen a certain discussion about, it, with regard to the keeping of the two rent books. Have jrou seen that yourself ?^Yes,. I have seen' it myself. 71Q4. You know it is a frequent practice among these £eo|>ie ?—Yes. 7196. And, of course, when the assessment people ■come round the rent book which is shown is the rent book for the assessment?—That is so. 7196. If a man is going to sell his property he would show the other one ?•—Yes* 719*7. So as to get the best terms he could both ways ?—Yes. 7198. I do not in the least attribute this entirely to. aliens or anybody else—it is simply an ordinary quality gristing in every human being to get the best terms he ■can—the lowest rates and the highest price ?—Yes. 71.99. (Chairman.) The object, of the evidence was to stow we do not get the highest rents before us, but we get the smaller ones ?•—-Quite so. , 7200. (Mr. VaUanee.) Are we to understand from you that, it ;is,hopeless to expect to be able, under any given circumstances, to do away with overcrowding?—With the present law it is hopeless to think that overcrpwd- ing c&n be done away with absolutely. 7201. Assuming for a moment that the person who receives the excessive rent of an overcrowded tenement were held liable by law for that overcrowding, would summary proceedings in- such a case lead to a diminu- tion in the overcrowding ?—Summary proceedings with- out any preliminary notice ? 7202-3. Yes?—If that was the case, and you make it a criminal offence—after, tlie second or third offence the owner shall be sent to prison without the option of a fine—I have no doubt that it would, if you will introduce very much more drastic remedies. ' 7204. Or if it "vras not niade a criminal offence, and the tenement Was liable to be closed by magistrates' order, would that have the effect'?—Yes, if you guaranteed that the magistrate would exercise that power, but my, experience of magistrates is this: that they take into consideration the difficulty of finding ihouses for the people, and they would not go to that e&trelne. In fact, I have failed to close several houses that were, in my opinion, absolutely unfit for human habitation for that very reason. They were inspected by the magistrate, and in giving his decision he men- tioned the fact of the great difficulty there is of housing the. people, and he refused to grant the closing' order. 7205. We have your admission that the overcrowding is not alone by the aliens ?—Quite so. 7206. But the admissioii of alliens into tlie district in, such large numbers accentuates the difficulty ?-^That is so; ' ; 7007. "Would you be in favour of the local authority beiiig authorised to make provision to a limited extent ill afiticipiation of orders Upon the owjier for overcrowd- ing ?-^I! should certainly like to see the law amended, And to fhrbw the responsibility more upon the land- lord, * 7268. Bo you think the effect of it would be to con- siderably diminish this overcrowding?—-I do—to «di&iiiish it. You have spoken of the activity of the Stepney Thorough Council since it has been in power in some ;600 eases ?—600 up to the time I gave my evidence. 7010. You fear there has been no substantial result? •—•Yes. This report is only one report for one small district in the Borough of Stepney. (Producing docu- ment.) . If you look over this document, you find. that d^ercrb^ding is distributed all over the district, aaicL wii&t i*oes on in one part of the district is absolutely xuiferioWni in the other so far as the people themselves are concerned. 7211. When you speak of the hopelessness of dealing ^ith overcifb^iSng, I take it you mean in the present state of the law ?—That is so. Perhaps 1 should say tlie hopelessness of doing away with overcrowding alto- gether. Yoi* . paay. abate it, you may mitigate it, but to do away with it altogether it is hopeless. 7212. (Chairman.) Your evidence is confined to your district—it is not with regard to the country generally ? —4 am only, speaking of my own district. 7213. (Mr. Vallance.) You have thought this matter out a good deal, I suppose ?—-I have. It has caused me very anxious moments. 7214. Have you anything to suggest as regards the direction that legislation should take with a view of dealing with: this question of overcrowding, assuming the continued entrance into the country of these alien immigrants ?—Yes. The great difficulty is to detect it. For instance, the inspector has to go between 6 and 8 in the morning, say ; as soon as he knocks at the door it is known throughout that street that the sanitary inspector is in the street, and what his object is. It is absolutely useless for him to go to any other house, everybody in the street knows what his object is, and they answer him accordingly. There is no liability on their part to speak the truth ; therefore, unless you can detect the overcrowding, you can never abate it, and it is impossible to take more than four or five houses in each street to get .the correct number of people in that street. 7215. But if by an amended law the landlord were held directly liable,, the detection of overcrowding in four or fiye. houses in a street would suffice, would it not, to deal effectively with, it ?—'Probably. 7216. With reference to the entrance of these aliens into the port of London, have you through your in- spectors at any time followed these aliens to See whs^t overcrowding has been occasioned directly by them ? —No. 7217. It is only the condition you find subsequently ? —That' is so. 7218. The number of houses which has been referred to in the borough of Stepney is some 31,000 ?—Yes. 7219. Probably a considerable deduction w«uld have to be made from that by reason of the peculiar inter- pretation which has been placed on the word "house" in the Census returns ?—Yes. 7220. I take it that your reference to the inspection is an inspection of a certain number of houses, not tenements Within a hotise ?-—A tenement in a block of buildings counts ais a house. 7221. Are you disposed to count a tenement in a block of buildings as a house in relation to the pro- vision of an additional inspector ?—No. 7222. There is also a deduction to be made of pro- bably 25 per cent. or more for houses which would not be brought within the registration ?—Not so much as 25 per cent. 7223. 20 per cent/?-—I shbuld say 90 pier cent, of the houses in Stepney could be registered under that Act. . 7224. Assuming those houses to be registered, the preliminary work of registration would be a heavy work, would it not ?—The preliminary work would be heavier than afterwards^ 7225. But given the registration,, would it be neces- sary then for you to have one inspector to each 1,000 houses?—It would. 7226. Assuming that summary procedings were pos- sible again'st the owners receiving the excessive rent?— That is if the law'were altered. 7227. Yes,, I am assuming an alteration in the law? —Yes, because they, would require the same amount of supervision afterwards ; that is, I consider that 1,000 houses let in lodgings is quite 'sufficient for one sani- tary inspector/ because to enforce these bye-laws they would have to visit houses more frequently than if they were not on the register. 7228. Put after registration would it be absolutely necessary periodically, to visit every house?—Oh, yes, it. would, or else the bye-laws would be futile. 7229. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) As I understand, you have had a good deal of trouble in getting these bye-laws made?—Yes. 7230. You have had a long controversy with the Local Government Board ?—We have. 7231. You at last succeeded in getting them and inillxWIS OF. E^IDjPNCE. 249 getting bye-laws without any rent limit at all?—We have. 7232. I suppose you consider that a subject of con- gratulation ?—Yes. 7233. And it is so far a good bit of work done?•— We are satisfied with it. 7234. I confess it is somewhat disappointing to hear that you think these bye-laws will be no use now you have got them ?—I did not say that. What I. meant was 1 that these bye-laws with regard to dealing with overcrowding will not be of very much value to us. 7235. I am dealing only with "the question of over- crowding ?-—Quite so. 7236. You said in answer to Major Gordon, who asked you: " Will you be better off with regard to over- crowding than you at present are?" "I do not think we shall be so very much." That is your answer?— Yes. 7237. I should like to follow out these bye-laws with you. You have told Mr. Yallance that a great number of these houses are capable of registration ?—That is so. 7238. Therefore you wholly differ from the witness we had last time, who told us that the effect of the decision in Weatheritt v. Cantlay, in the case of Bethnal Green, was practically to take away the whole of the houses from the operation of the bye-laws?—I did not know that. 7239. You would not agree with that, and I do not think anybody else does?—No. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The character of the houses in Bethnal Green is somewhat different from the character of those in Stepney. 7240. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Probably it is an exag- geration. At all events, in Stepney you say a great number of houses would come under the bve-laws?— Yes. 7241. Let us see what powers you have under the bye-laws. The important bye-laws for our purposes are 2 and*4 3. No. 2 is: " The keeper of a lodging- house or a lodger therein shall not knowingly cause or suffer a greater number of persons than will admit of the provision of three hundred cubic feet of free air space for each person of an age exceeding ten years, and of one hundred and fifty cubic feet of free air space for each person of an age not exceeding ten years to occupy, at any one time, as a sleeping apartment, a room which is used exclusively for that purpose, and which is under the control of such keeper, or which has been let to such lodger, respectively, as the case may be." The other overcrowding bye-law refers to a room not exclusively used as a sleeping apartment?—Yes. 7242. If the keeper of a lodging house does do that now, you have got your effective bye-law, and you will be able, will you not, to prosecute him, and for a first offence he will be liable to a penalty of five pounds, and in the case of a continuous offence to a further penalty of 40s. for each day after notice from the council ?—-That is so. 7243. That is a tolerably stringent provision?—As far as it goes. 7244. Where do you say it is deficient ?—Because the keeper is the man who rents the house from the owner, and if his goods were sold up, they would not be worth £5. 7245. You have not only a remedy for these fines, but you can send him to prison if he does not pav ?— How? 7246. Have you not found that out yet?—-No. We can levy a distress warrant. 7247. Supposing he does not pay under the distress warrant?—We have not gone further than that. 7248. That is what I am afraid. I should recom- mend you to go a little further?—We should have to get the magistrate to agree with our suggestion. 7249. The magistrate cannot help himself when he has once ordered the fine. Take the definition of the word " keeper " keeper " in relation to a house or part of a house which is let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one family, means the person (whatever may be the nature or extent of his interest in the premises) by whom or on whose behalf such house or .part of a house is let in lodgings." Therefore the keeper is the immediate landlord?—Yes. 6144. 7250. Do you mean to say that the immediate land- Dr. D. L. lord is a man who is hot capable of being reached Thoma*» under such a provision as that I have just read?—: tTIqao What I mean to say is this: the man who rents the 14 July iyU2. house, and sub-lets, very often at a profit, to the other is one of themselves ; that is, he is a man of straw, and we fine him £5 and that is the maximum. 7251. You issue a distress warrant, and the return is nulla bona?—That suggests that we have the maximum penalty in the police court, which we never have. 7252. Any penalty—I do not care whether it is the maximum or not ?—If we get a, penalty we can recover it by distress warrant, and sell him up. 7253. And if there is no return to the distress warrant what is the next step ?—By that time you find the man is gone and left the district. 7254. Then he will not overcrowd any more?—No, 7255. (Chairman.) And the lodgers have gone too ? —Not necessarily. 7256. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is rather a serious- matter. You come here and say these bye-laws are going to be waste paper ?—You are taking one part of my evidence without the other. What I said was, look- ing to what has been done in other districts, that though they are recent bye-laws they have not taken proceedings in a single instance. 7257. Do not you know what is said about local authorities all over London is that they have not en- forced these bye-laws, and have not done what they might do with regard to overcrowding?—Dr. Shirley Murphy said- 7258. Never mind what Dr. Shirley Murphy said. I want to know what you say?-—Dr. iShirley Murphy said that Kensington and Westminster had, and Stepney had not. 7259. You say not only Stepney had not, but Stepney is not going to, as I understand ?—No, I do not for a moment. We are going to enforce these bye-laws as much as we possibly can, and to show we are in earnest in doing that, at my request the council have appointed two men to do nothing else but to enforce these bve- laws. 7260. Of course you have been subject to the gentle persuasion of Major Gordon. When you come -to> enforce the bye-laws I have no doubt you will do< your best. 7261. (Chairman.) Do you want these bye-laws altered, and if you do, will you tell us in what way ? —Instead of going to the keeper, we want to go to the landlord. 7262. Is that the only thing ?—That is the only thing. 7263. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Was that proposed in the bye-laws ?—Yes. 7264. Was it struck out by the Local Government Board ?—Yes. 7265. (Chairman.) What definition would you give to '• landlord " ? Do you mean the man who receives from the^ keeper only, or do you go further up in the landlordism strata? WJiat is the landlord whom you wish to hit ?-^-The man really who takes the rent. ' 7266. From the keeper?—-Yes. 7267. The keeper takes it from the lodger, and you say that is not enough ?—'That is not enough. In order to get rid of the responsibility the landlord then would not sub-let it. 7268. If the landlord lets the house to John Smith, and that landlord is a gentleman living at York, how is he to follow up that house and see how many people John Smith puts in .a room ?—But he has an, agent. 7269. He cannot control it. He lets the house to A. B., and surely the person you ought to deal with is the occupying tenant?—The landlord ought to be re- sponsible for the number of people in the house. 7270. A landlord is not responsible for what his tenant does. If I take a house from a man in the country the landlord cannot come in and see what I am doing in that house ?—That is just my point, that prosecuting the keeper will not do away with the over- crowding altogether. 7271. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Why not? The keeper is the man who actually overcrowds the house. Why will not prosecuting him stop the evil? — I can only speak from practical experience. II250 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr. 3, L. Thomas. U July 1902* 7272. You have not prosecuted under the bye-laws yet?—Oh, but we have, excuse me. We prosecuted under the old bye-laws. 7273, You have not found out that you can send a man to prison if he does not pay his fine?—We prose- cuted the keeper, and we found he was so poor that the Limehouse Board of Works actually paid the fine, anc| you will find that these keepers are so poor, and keepers do not know their liabilities when they take on from the landlord the duties of a keeper . 7^74. (Chairman.) I cannot see how you can make the landlord, who is non-resident and knows nothing about what is going on in his homse, liable. How is he to follow the action of the tenant, and become liable for it ? —That may be so, but the owner himself in the great majority of cases (I do not say it is so in all cases) knows what is going on, and in order to get over his liability he receives the rent from one tenant who then becomes the keeper, and the whole responsibility is on his shoulders. 7275. That may be a fraudulent act, but take the ordinary case of a landlord. I cannot see how that unfortunate person is to be made liable for what takes place in a house into which he cannot enter and whichj he cannot control. (Major JEvans-Gordon*) Am I right in this, that the # point of view of Lord James and the point of view of the East End are two different things P The owners in the case of most of these properties are owners of small job lots, of houses P—Yes. 7276. And it is nonsense to say that he does not know what is going on. He is constantly there, and he knows perfectly well what is going on. Is not that so ?—That) is so; he collects the rent in the great majority of cases. 7277. That is one side of the case. We know that the first thing every man with a few pounds in his pocket, or who has scraped together a few pounds, does in the East End is to buy up house property?—Yes. 7278. One man owns one house, and another two. They know perfectly well what is going 011 in their houses, and if you were to prevent them it would have some effect?—Yes. .7279. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) So far as I see, you think these bye-laws are defective in not sufficiently applying to the landlord?—-The landlord as described by Major Gordon. 7280. In that respect you would wish them to be amended—in fact, you did, as I understand, try to have them in that form, but they were not allowed?—Yes. 7281. But, at all events, as far as the keeper is concerned, the remedy against him is an effective one? —Yes. 7282. There is a fine, and the consequence of non- payment of fine is prison ?—Yes. 7283. You spoke, in answer to Question 5682, of the answers to some letters you wrote to other medical officers of health?—Yes. 7284. When were those letters written?—The replies were on the 20th June, the 14th June, 17th June, and 16th of June of this year. 7285. What was your object in getting these replies ? —Because I saw in Dr. Shirley Murphy's evidence that overcrowding could be abated by these means, and thati practically Stepney had been backward in not going for thjsm. I did not look on the bye-laws as dealing entirely and exclusively with overcrowding. They are excellent bye-laws for these reasons, and for these reasons we ,had them revised. 7286. Was it for the purpose of giving your evidence before this Commission, or for the purpose of your own work, that you got these letters?—For the purpose of giving evidence. 7287* And to show that the bye-laws were believed to be no good to you?—To show we were not at fault, as Dr. Shirley Murphy wanted to show. 7288. I am not sure you have succeeded in doing that,, because was not that evidence rather a formidable in- dictment against the local authorities for not having put in force the powers the Act gave them?—I do not remember the particular evidence you refer to. 7280. You have given a summary, which I have no doubt is accurate, showing the number of cases in which the local authorities have not enforced the bye- laws. Dr. Shirley Murphy's position is that if the powers of the Act were properly carried out a great deal might be done to stop overcrowding. You have cir- cularised all the local authorities to show they have not done the very thing that Dr. Shirley Murphy says 19 the reason for overcrowding not being properly dealt withr—Every medical officer of health has +ri3i to prosecute under the bye-laws. 7290. That does not appear. It ajDpears they hav«- noK done so ?—They have all done so at one time or other. 7291. I do not think so. If you read the London County Council book you will find there has been very great neglect in putting these powers of the 1891 Ac# into force ?—That County Council report is six or seven years old. 7292. No, I do not think it is ?—I think you will find the inquiry was made six or seven years ago. 7293. But the book I have quoted from is last year., However that may be, you have brought out the fact that the greater part of the local authorities in London have either not got efficient bye-laws or have not en- forced them ?—That is not what I think. 7294. As regards overcrowding?—What I said was there have not been any proceedings under these bye- laws during the last 18 months, because the medical officers had preferred to go under the Public Health Act, because they found the bye-laws were too cumbersome to proceed under. 7295. I am trying to show that the bye-laws are not cumbersome, and provide a very simple and effective remedy, and I want to know why they are not en- forced. I agree with you that they are not enforced; I want to know why?—The answer of every medical officer of health is that they have been found too cumber- some. I have found them too cumbersome in the Limer house district, for one reason, that as soon as the agenfo was changed it was a new owner altogether. 7296. Then you could go against the new agent for the new owner ?—Then they have to be re-registered. 7297. There is a difference of opinion about that, is not there?—Yes, there is; but when we apply for a summons we do not know what magistrate it is coming before. 7298. I have no doubt you have difficulty in carrying them out ?—We have.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 251 NINETEENTH DAY. Thursday, 17th July, 1902 present i The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Yai lance, Esq. Inspector Richard Hyper, called; and Examined. Inspector R.\Hijder. 7299. (Chairman.) I believe you are Sub-Divisional Inspector of the H Division ?—Yes. 7300. Where are you stationed at?—Leman Street Station. 7301. What does your district comprise?—From the City boundary down to the New Road; thence in a straight line to the river. 7302. You must tell us a little more than that. What New Road is that?—The New Road, White- chapel. It is in the Whitechapel district. 7303. I believe your district runs from Aldgate, running down Whitechapel High Street and White- chapel" Road, until you come to a certain place near Mount Place?—To the New Road. 7304. Then, if you turn to the south that would bring you to the river ?—Just so. 7305. That is all in Stepney Borough?—Yes, 7306. And it includes part of Whitechapel and part of Mile End ?—Yes, and part of Wapping. 7307. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) New Road and Cannon Street Road?—Yes. 7308. (Chairman.) How long have you been stationed there ?~^Six years and eight months. 7309. I believe you were moved to that district from another district?—Yes, I came from the West. 7310. Is this district very much inhabited by foreigners ?—Yes, peculiarly so ; I should think about 80 per cent. 7311. Do you really mean that of the whole popula- tion 80 per cent, are foreigners?—Yes, in my particular sub-division. 7312. Was that so when you first went there, or has it altered since you went ?—No, it was not so. 7313. Has the increase been gradual, or has it been more of late ?—Oradual, I should say. 7314. For the whole period of six years ?—Yes— more during the last two. 7315. What were the class of people inhabiting this district before this alien change took place ?—Princi- pally labourers from the docks, wool warehouses, and general warehouses in the neighbourhood. 7316. Of course, those represent the poorer class of the population?—Yes. 7317. Were there wool workers there?—Yes, 7318. What class of people are they—what do you call wool workers ?—The whole of the wool which comes into England practically comes to London, and there are very large warehouses all round the docks, both inside and out. I do no.t mean manufacturing the wool, but labouring the wool. It is sold in the raw state. It has to be shipped and got away, and it is taken away in various vehicles to the different rail- ways. 7319. It is unskilled labour dealing with the wool packages ?—Yes. 7320. Have you any knowledge of what has become of these people? Where have they gone to?—They have been driven further out. 7321. Can you trace them at all?—No, 7322. Have you got a good many dock labourers in your district, especially near Wapping?—There may 6144. be a number of them live in Wapping, but it k only yi jul 19Q2. a small portion of Wapping that belongs to my district ______ —very small. 7323. Have they been disturbed in that small por- tion of the district?—No, I think not—nothing mate- rial, at all events. 7324. Is there any part of the district where the dock labourers live where they have been ousted ?—Yes, all over the sub-division, with the exception of Wapping. 7325. Is there a part there known as the Island?— That is the part I am referring to. 7326. That is your part ?—Yes. 7327. They have not been ousted there?—No, not to any extent. 7328. Then, may I take it that in your district, with the exception of the Wapping district, this ousting by aliens has taken place ?—Yes. 7329. You have seen the class of people that come in—the aliens?—Yes. 7330. First tell me, speaking generally, what class of people they are. How do they strike you as regards their cleanliness and bearing? I will deal with their conduct afterwards?—-When they first come in? 7331. Yes?—I do not form a very good opinion of them myself. 7332. In what direction?—They are not clean—the majority of them—nor decently clothed, 7333. That is, you say, when they first come in. D© they continue in that condition or is there a change ?— We generally lose sight of them after they land. One can scarcely tell where they go to. 7334. You say 80 per cent, of this district is inhabited by these foreigners?—Yes. 7335. You do see the 80 per cent. ?—Yes^ and un- doubtedly they improve. 7336. In what respect ?—In respect of their cleanliness and their clothing. 7337. As regards their conduct, are they temperate or intemperate, as a rule ?—I do not find them much better than the old ones, in my opinion. 7338. " Not much better? " Do tell us frankly. Are they about the same as the old persons were ?—There is one thing—their women do not drink so much as ours. 7339. Are they, as a rule, abouft the same average as our men would be, who were there before, or are they better or worse ?—I think my answer is that they are no better. 7340. Do you mean they are the f these foreigners^ we understand, are Russians or Poles?—I should think the great majority of them are Russian and Polish Jews. 7364. And a good many of them belong to the Jewish faith ?—Yes. 7365. Has gambling shown itself in the district since the > ousting- of the British inhabitants ?—Yes.' 7366. More than it was before ?;—I may say this, that I neyer taew a gambling house kept by anyone else but a foreigner in my time. 7367 That was during the whole six years?—Six years Si & y<3U d0 ?~Send oncers to the landing <* ***** T <• 7376. What is your landing place?—'At the Iron Gate Stairs. We have no jurisdiction in the dock. ^ 7377. Are thef landed from boats?—Yes. — .7378. When you see the vessel lying at anchor off the stairs do you board the vessel or not?—-No. The Thames Police may. We have no facilities for board- ing • vessels. When you say the Thames Police i)(iay, and that you have no facility, for what object do you sup- pose you are sent there ?—To prevent these people from being interfered with and their luggage being interfered with,- and to prevent any breach of the peace. J 7380. You have no duty cast upon you to inspect ;j them or tc stop them ?—No. 7381. Then, you j)rotect them, really ?—That is so. 7382. For instance, in case of the boatmen over- charging, or any imposition upon them, you would stand as their friend?—That is so. 7383. Do you report the number that arrive ?—Yes. , 7384. How do you obtain that number?:—The officers that are present count them. 7385. That is all—in a rough way ?—Yes ; he says 39 were landed or 49r or 59, or whatever it may be. 7386. To whom does he report?—'He reports to his inspector at the station to which the ground belongs where they are landed.. 7387. Does that go to the Thames Police or -up to Scotland Yard?—It goes into our Occurrence Book— the book of every day's work—that is kept on record for all time; it is accessible at any time. 7388. No use, that you know, is made of that ?—-Not that I am aware of. It is treated by us as an ordinary occurrence. 7389. Now, tell me the result when you have been there yourself, as I gather you have been ?—Yes. 7300. What is the condition of these alien immi- grants as they arrive? We will sub-divide them in a moment. Do you distinguish between the German vessels and the other vessels ?—No. 7391. Does the condition of the alien immigrants vary a great deal, some vessel loads being better than others?—No, they appear to be about all one general class to me. 7392. What condition do they appear to you to arrive in?—Sometimes better than others, and some persons better than others. If a vessel has had a rough passage they look very bad ; if she has had a fine voyage they look very well. 7393. That refers to other people besides alien im- migrants. How are they clothed? Do they come sometimes in rags and tatters ?—Not exactly that, but poorly clothed. I have never seen them clothed so bad as to call attention to them—no other than what they might walk through the streets in. Of course, they do excite attention because they are dressed dif- ferently from our people. 7394. Who meets these people, as a rule?—Usually some of their own people. 7395. How do you designate their own people ?—They are met from the-J ewish Shelter as a generalrule. Some are met by friends, I take it. At all events, there is alwavs someone to take them away. 7396. You would not know, probably, but it is possible, I suppose, that some of the people living in the East End districts come up to meet the frieilds they know are coming ?—Quite probable. 7397. And some from the J ewish Shelter ?—Yes. . 7398. Do they generally go off in cabs or walk away ?— Walk away, as a rule. 7399. And their luggage ?—That is taken away on barrows or vehicles. 7400. Then, of course, that is all you see of them, and all you know of them ?—That is all. 7401. (Mr. Vallance.) Upon the landing of these immi- grants, have you found, in the course of your duties, that any proportion of them have been actually destitute out- side the dock gates ?—I think about 12 months ago—I am not quite clear about the date—there was a number landed of destitute Roumanians, and they lay about the streets for a night or two. 7402. They were neither met by friends, nor by the 253 -•agents of the Shelter ?—Not so far as I know, That is i)he only instan.ee I can recollect. 7403. You say that the loafing class is just as prevalent • now there is such a large alien population as formerly? *f¥es. _ ........_ ;...... _ ,.....;iV - 7404. Have your duties carried you at all to the com-»- . mon lodging-houses ?—-No. 7405. You are not prepared to say what proportion, -roughly, of the occupants of the common lodging-houses ^ai^ forieign^ ih ^ho district ?^-No; v . , 7406. With reference to the English population being) -ousted by the foreigners, you say you do not know what the operation has been—how they have been ousted? •;—No. 7407. Have you ever had any complaint frorii an English occupant in regard to the foreigners driving him out of the district?—No, they would scarcely come to us. 7408. Have you ever formed yourself, from your ex- perience, an opinion as to what the cause would be of -an English tenant leaving an English tenement Or house, and going out of the district ?—No. I have no v ' opinion on it. 7409- You have never had any complaint from an .English tenant to the effect tha"0 he could not pay the rent for his own family, and that the foreigners over- crowded, and consequently could ?—No. 7410; (Mr. Norman.) Have you received any in- • stractions from your chiefs regarding the evidence you should or should not give here to-day?—Yes. 7411. Will you tell the Commission what the instruc- tions were?—The instructions were, that I was to^give •evidence that had already been taken from me, which :was submitted for approval. 7412. And no other evidence?—Yes—anything. 74131 Then you am free to give any evidence ?—Yes. 7414. And to answer any question ?—Yes. 7415. You aire'under no restrictions?—No. 7416. Is it within your knowledge that the magis- trates in the districts you know have publicly com- mented upon the increase of foreign crime of late ?—I cannot" say. 7417. Have you never heard a magistrate say that? —No. 7418. Never heard of him saying it?—No, I never lieard him say it. # I cannot speak from hearsay.. 7419. You say that these people, when they come, are -ditty and poor, and impudent, and unaccustomed to fr6e institutions. All that is in your evidence, I think ?—I do not think I said they are impudent when they come. 7420. They become impudent ?—Yes, the loafing class. 7421. And that they are unaccustomed to our own free, institutions'. I think you say that in your evi- dence ?—Yes. What I say, I think, is that they get a great deal more liberty here than they do in their ^wh oountryj aM they very soon find it out.- 7422. And take advantage of it, 1 understand your meaning to be ?—Yes. 7423. Yet, in spite 6'f all these things, you place them, on a par with the .British working man as regards .general behaviour ?—Of course, there are loafers among the British working men* I place them oii a par with our own. < 7424. In spite of these characteristics, you' still say that these people who come in with these qualjiiies are, under the circumstances, neither better nor worse than the average British working man?—That is my1 opinion. 7425. Is it easier or Tlarder to keep the peace and / enforce the law in. your district, than it was when you first knew it?—I do not find much difference. Of course, it would be. hard for you to explain the law to a man. who could not understand you. That is the only difficulty—the language question. If I meet a man in • the street, and I want to tell him to get out of the way, I have to take hold of him and put him out of the way. ' 7426. (Chairman.) ThsLt is a very conclusive way of expressing your opinion?—And then he will come back. ^ 7427, (Mr.i Norman.) He does not understand that .language, eWii$—He will not. aw;7428: Would you find with the British working man if you were compelled" to do that, that he would im- mediately /eome, back ?—He would move on if I asked himj If I say " Move on " to an English crowd they will go away, and this crowd will not. 7429. The English .crowd, when it understands, is willing to go away?—Yes. 7430. But I understand, from what you said just now, that if you take a man by the collar and put him away, he is not willing to go away—he comes back ?-* Yes, as soon as I have passed on. 7431. Although he cannot have failed to understand what you mean ?—Undoubtedly. 7432. Therefore, he is not so willing to obey the law as th^ British working man?—If you put it that way, that is so. Of course, the presumption on his part would be that he did not understand me. 7433. I gather from what I have read in your evi- dence tha^ you look upon that as a pretence ?—Yes, in nine cases out of ten. It is a very hard thing to prove. It is only my opinion. 7434. It is your opinion that is of so much interest to us. You say you or some police-officer attends the arrival of these people to . prevent their being inter- fered with, or to prevent a breach of the peace ?—Yes. 7435. Have you (ana wnen X say "You," I mean the police generally) an^ reason to expect that they might be interfered with ?—No. 7436. Or to fear a breach of the peace ?—No. 7437. Is there, within your knowledge, any local feeling in favour of these people or against them among the British population?—I never venture to ask that question. It has1 never come to my knowledge. 7438. You are not aware whether there is any feeling in favour of them or against them ?—I have no feeling. I cannot say what others have. 7439. It is not within your knowledge that there is any feeling against them whatever ?—Not from a police point of view—I say I have no such knowledge. 7440. How many years have you been in this dis- trict?—Six years, eight .months; 7441. Have there been any outbreaks amongst these people during that time?—No, not anything like an organised outbreak. 7442. Or an unorganised outbreak ?—Solitary quarrels, undoubtedly. 7443. Breaking of windows or furniture?—No, you have got too far up for that. I think you are alluding to Cornwall Street. 7444. I am not very familiar with the geography of the district?—It does not cover me. 7445. That is not in your division ?—No, my part of Wapping is between the two bridges, which, when the two bridges are open, makes it an island. 7446., Is it across the bridge that there have been, these outbreaks ?—That is so. 7447. But not in your district ?—-That is so. , 7448. Even the fact of your knowledge of these out- breaks does not lead you to form the opinion that there is any feeling against these people ?—I have no opinion that way. 7449. Have you formed an opinion as to whether it is an advantage to the community or not that these people should be allowed to pour in in these large numbers ?—No. 7450. I take it from your answers to me that, in your own mind, you draw a line of distinction between your opinion purely as a police officer, and whatever private opinion you might form?—I am giving evidence in my capacity as a police officer. 7451. Therefore, if you have formed any opinion one way or the other on these points, you would not feel at liberty, as a police officer, to express it ?—No; I am only here to speak to facts. 7452. (Major Evans-Gordon.) One point with regard to the sobriety of these people, on which you answered one question of the Chairman's. Can you tell us, have the charges of drunkenness decreased or increased, in your division, since this influx has gone on ?—There has been no material difference during the last six years. 7453. It remains about the same?—It fluctuates, but there is no material difference. One half-year there might be more than the corresponding half-year, and the next half-year there might be less. 7454. With regard to this going to meet the aliens on landing, what is the object of that ?—I think I said it lector lyj&r-. Ins H, '* 17I 254 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATIONS Inspector R. Hyder I7f July 1902. is to prevent their being molested or their things taken, and to prevent a breach of the peace. 7455. Has there been any fear of molestation P—No, not that I know of. 7456. If there is no fear of molestation or breach of the peace, why are the police officers there ?—It is one* of the Commissioner's regulations. 7457. It has not been caused by any actual breach ofj the peace in your knowledge ?—I cannot say that. All I know is it is one of the Commissioner's regulations. 7458. You are there by order?—By the regulations of the service. 7459. You do not say what the origin of that order is, or the reason, or whether any reason exists?—That is impossible for me to say. The orders were there when I joined the service in 1877, and have been there ever since. 7460. I understand you cannot tell us, or will not tell us, what you hear in the district. You are constantly moving about the district?—No, I cannot give evidence about hearsay. 7461. You are in close not tell you all I hear. 7469. Are you under any instructions with regard to> telling us what you hear ?—Yes; my instructions are to communicate facts. 7470. And to express no opinion at all ?—I have no- opinion. 7471. Those were your instructions ?—Yes. 7472. You refer here to the difficulty you have with regard to the language with these people. Will you tell us more about that? Where does that difficulty come in?—In various ways. If a person loses anything, and they cannot speak the English language, they cannot give you information respecting their loss. If you go to arrest a man for anything, and you happen to get the wrong man, you have no means of ascertaining whether it is the right man or not. 7473. Bo any of the police officers speak Yiddish?— No. 7474. None?—No. ' 7475. I understand that there is not a single con- stable in the whole of the division who understands the language ?—No, 7476. When you are arresting these people, or are concerned with them, I suppose they talk to one another in their own language ?—Yes. 7477. And you, as police officers, cannot understand what they are saying?—No. 7478. That would be a difficulty in your way?—That is a great difficulty. 7479. Is it part of your duty to go to places of enter- tainment in your division?—Yes. 7480. Entertainments where a foreign language is spoken ?—-Yes. 7481. You do not understand the nature of the per- formance at these places?—No. 7482. So that you cannot express any opinion, and it is impossible for you, as police officer, to know what is going on?—Just so. 7483. With regard to this loafing population*. you say one of their characteristics is impudence. Tell us more about that. How does that impudence strike you?—I scarcely know how to express myself there. 7484. What you would call* cheek ?—They turn round and not only use cheek, but abusive language, and, if there are three or four of them, you would stand no chance if you took action, because they could swear they did not do so, and they would be four to one. 7485. After they have been here a little time they get what 'we should call above themselves—will not that describe it?—Yes, 7486. I do not think you need be very cautious about that—that is a question of fact. I do not think that is opinion. In other words, they take advantage of the in- creased freedom they have got on coming to this- country ?-—That is so, 7487. What you call immunity from interference by the police ?—That is so. 7488. That is felt by other classes of the population, besides the police, 1 imagine ?—I presume so, 7489. Generally speaking, whether you regard th*> question from the economical point of view, or the moral or the criminal point of view, you consider the characteristics of your district remain about the same,, unaltered ?—Yes, 7490. What do you say with regard to the charges, that come under your notice? What would you say with regard to the particular form of crime—the pre- vailing form of crime—because that is what we are chiefly on ?—Do you mean the maioritv of their offences P offences? 7491. Yes, the prevailing form of crime—the majority. Are they guilty, for instance, of crimes of violence?—- Yes. 7492. There is no change there. It is about the same as it was before?—'Yes. 7493. Do they fight?—Yes, frequently with one an- other, 7494. Often violent to one another ?—Yes. 7495. Then, as regards sobriety, we have had that. Thieving and pickpocketing?—Yes. 7496. Certainly no improvement on the old popular tion in that respect?—No. 7497. Now I see here burglary. What about bur- glary ; is that prevalent ?—About the same as before. 7498. Would you say there were many foreign bur- glars residing in Stepney ?•—I can-not go outside my own sub-division. 7499. In your own division?—If you look, you will see that I say there was a gang of 12 arrested. 7500. Becently?—Yes, last December. 7501. Were they a regular organised gang ?—Yes. 7502. Germans?—Yes. 7503. Y©u do not know whether they came over her© organised, or organised themselves here?-—No; I can- not say. 7504. That did not come out?~~No, 7505. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Were those Germans conj- victed %—Yes, the whole 12. Those 12 men effected no> theft whatever at Stepney. 7506. (Major Evans-Gordon,) They were working outside ?—-Yes. 7507. They lived in Stepney?—In various parts of Stepney. 7508. And worked outside?—Yes. 7509. Where were they tried?—At the Central Criminal Court. 7510. At the Old Bailey?—Yes; 7511. Do you find any difficulty in getting evidence with regard to convictions in alien, cases ?—-We have to depend' largely on our own. 7512. On your own evidence ?—Yes. ^ 7513, Does* that difficulty with regard to evidence give the foreign criminal a better chance of getting off than the English criminal No, I cannot say that. evidence is taken with regard to our own criminals before anything else, 7514* (Mr. Wormwn,)) You say it is naturally, be-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 255 <«jause of the difference in language, more difficult to £et evidence against these people, and you have to depend on your own evidence only?—It has to be in- terpreted to them, and the interpreter does not always •convey to them what we mean, and vice versa. 7515. Of course, it is easier for you to succeed in z. prosecution against a man whose language you know, is it not ?—Undoubtedly. ' 7516. Therefore, the man whose language you do not toow has rather a better chance of escaping you ?—Un- doubtedly. 7517. Therefore a foreign criminal has a better chance of escaping justice in this country than the British criminal ?—If you put it in that way. 7518. If you put it in that way. I am asking you whether that is so. I think it follows, from what you have said ?—Yes, I should say so. 7519. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I want to ask you once -more, is it or is it not a fact that you have heard opinions against aliens expressed among the English population in Stepney?—I have heard all sorts of •opinions. 7520. Against?—And for. 7521. Among the English population?—Yes. 7522. I want to know with regard to the position you are in as a witness, and precisely what it is. Who gave you instructions with regard to what your posi- tion is, and what you may say and what you may not say ?—My orders were received from Mr. Henry. 7523. Who is Mr. Henry?—The Assistant-Commis- 7524. You got your orders from him?—To attend Inspector here, and give evidence according to the statements E. Hyder. taken, and of any fact. - 7525. But you were expressly told you were not ^ to express any opinions ?—No ; I was not told any such thing. I was told to give such evidence as might be asked from facts within my own knowledge. It is from my own knowledge that I decline to give any hearsay evidence, because I might talk here for a week. 7526. (Chairman.) You say there is a difference of opinion in this neighbourhood expressed on one side and the other for and against these alien immigrants? —I have heard both sides. 7527. You are an officer of police and are acting as inspector in this neighbourhood ?—Yes. 7528. Would it be advantageous for your position to be regarded as a partisan of either one side or the other ? —No. 7529. And therefore, if you expressed an opinion here, you would run the risk of being regarded as a partisan ?—>Very likely. 7530. Therefore you have confined your evidence, under instructions, to facts?—Yes. 7531. Those facts you have given unbiassed by any- body's views, but your own?—That is so. 7532. (Lord Itothschild.) I think you mentioned there were 12 burglars caught in Stepney?—Yes. 7533. Were any of them Jews ?—I think not; but I will not be sure. I am only speaking from memory. I have not got the papers in front of me; but to the best of my belief, there were no Jews. Mr. {Stephen White, , ^ V534. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you a retired s inspector of the Criminal Investigation Department ?— 1 Yes. 7535. You retired in October, 1900?—Yes. 7536. In 1881 you were sent to reside as detective ^officer in the " H," or Whitechapel, Division ?—Yes. 7537. You went through all the grades of office until in i896 you became local inspector?—Yes. 7538. And you held that position when you retired in 1900?—Yes. 7539. What does the Whitechapel Division include? —It- includes St. Botolph, Aldgate, Whitechapel, St. George's-in-the-East, Wapping, Hatcliff, part of Shoreditoh, Mile End New and Old Towns, Stepney, a part of Bethnal Green, Spitalfields, and .the ^Liberty of the Tower and the old Artillery Ground ; that is, all the east side of the City boundary, and round Shoreditch Church as far as Warner Place, and then in a line running through to the London Hospital and down to Mile End Road to the Globe Bridge, and .along the Regent's Canal basin, and then all along the waterside right up to the Tower and including the Tower. 7540. Do you still reside in Stepney 2—Yes. 7541. You have seen a great change in the district -since the time you went there, in 1881?—Oh, yes. 7542. Would you describe briefly to us what the ■change has been ?—When I first went to reside in the neighbourhood, such streets as Commercial Road and St. George's Street, and a good many of the streets in that neighbourhood, were peopled by our own -people; but since that time our people have had to go iaway, and the place is now filled with foreigners. The other side of the New Road and Cannon Street. Road, and such streets as Baden Street and Rutland Street, and many streets on the east side of the New Road -and Cannon Street Road were entirely peopled by our own people. 7543. They were formerly ?—Yes. 7544. And now our people have 1been displaced by the 'foreigners ?—Yes, they have. 7545. In fact, during the last 10 years, the neigh- bourhood that you have described has Tbecome practi- cally a foreign town ?—It has. 7546. How did that affect you in dealing-with. your police work ?—In what way ? '.7547. With regard to the language and that sort called ; and Examined. ^ S. White. of thing ?—Of course, it is always a difficult matter to - conduct your business when you cansnot understand the language. This last 10 years it has been like being in a foreign country. I might as well have been on the frontiers of Russia. I scarcely hear my own language spoken. 7548. That, of course, presents a difficulty in the detection and hunting out of crime ?—It does. 7549. Would you say for that reason that the foreign criminal is in a better position than the English criminal?—Yes, certainly. 7550. Owing to the fact of his language not being understood ?—Yes. 7551. With regard to this displacement, I see in the notes of your evidence you say something about a co- operative society, which you quote as an instance?— bome years ago there was a co-operative store estab- lished at the corner of Albert Square and Commercial Koad. Ihe society was composed of nearly 3,000 share- holders, and they were nearly all Englishmen. I be- lieve there were one or two foreigners—I was told sd this morning, but I did not know there were anv foreigners in it; but I believe one or two foreigners were shareholders. Still, the majority of them were English- men ^ residing in the neighbourhood—mechanics and* working men. It was in existence some years, and we seemed to go on very well for a time; but the invasion. began to make itself felt so much, and the foreigners were displacing the English people, and turning them out of the neighbourhood, that eventually our share- holders began to fall away, and in 1895 we were com- pelled to close the doors, and that shop has been taken, over by a^ foreigner, who carries on exactly the same business that we were unable to carry on. Then in Albert Square there were 38 or 40 houses inhabited by Englishmen, but at the present time I do not think there is more than about one house with an English family in it. 7552. Was it part of your duty to be present-on the wharves when these people arrived ?—Yes. That came about in this way. Some 14 or 15 years ago such rowdyism and so many robberies occurred down at the* wharves—these aliens were robbed of all their clothing, and one thing and another ~that some gentlemen con- nected with the Jewish charities suggested that some deputed to attend the arrival of these steamers to see that these poor people were not robbed. 7553. Was there any ill-feeling shown by the English people towards them?—Yes; there was at that time?256 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. 7554. " Going" for them when t-liey landed, and sq S. White, on p-—-Yes. If July 190*? 7555. That was put a stop to by the police going . there?—Yes. 7556. Can you tell us about their condition on arriv- ing ?•—I frequently saw them on their arrival, and they were in a very filthy condition. I have many times, on iny arrival home after waiting on the boats, found ver-r min on my own clothing. 7557. You have had constant opportunities of seeing them, as your office was near the shelter?—-Yes. 7558. You did, and do still, I suppose, move a great deal about the district ?—Yes. 7559. What is your view as to the feeling in the neigh- , bourhood with regard to alien immigrants ?—-There is no doubt there is a very bitter feeling existing at thei present time against the aliens. If any person goes into the Commercial Road, and sees 300 or 400 of these people coming over in batches, he will see it causes an ill-feel- ing among our people, because they think they are dis- placing the native population. 7560. You know a;bout the overcrowded condition, but I think we need not go into that. We have had a great deal of evidence about it, but you would say there is 2^ gVeat deal of overcrowding in these districts?—-There is. There is no doubt about that. 7561. With regard to the moral and criminal con- ditions of Stepney. Between 1880 and 1890, these thieves' kitchens and lodging-houses were extirpated tai a large extent ?—Yes; there were a great many lodging- houses in Spitalfields pulled down for improvements in Oate Court and about that neighbourhood and Went- worth Street. 7562. Then there was the raid made in 1887 on these brothels ?—Yes. Mr. Charrington, of the East End Mis- sion, attacked all the brothels about the Ladylees Grove and the district. 7563. Those movements had a marked effect for good on the neighbourhood?—They had. 7564. Has that good effect lasted?—No. 7565. It has not?—No. 75,66- Has the evil of immoral houses and prostitution shown itself again ?—Yes, as bad as ever. 7567* Foreign prostitutes have been substituted for the English ones ?—Yes. 7568. About gaming dens. Have you come across many of them?—Yes • previous to 1081 it had only been necessary to take steps in one case against a common gaming house. They were unknown. But since that time there have been raids made on dozens and dozens of them, and hundreds and hundreds of pounds in fines have been inflicted, and they are still as rife as ever. 7569. There are a great many gambling dens ?—Yes. 7570. Are they mostly kept by foreigners ?—Entirely by foreigners. 7571. In all the cases you have come across they were kept by foreigners ?—Yes. I do not think I know of a house, unless it was kept by a foreigner. 7572. Are the people who go there and use these places foreigners too?—Yes; you very seldom find an Englishman in them. 7573. The people in a gaming house are not prose- cuted, are they ?—No. 7574. (Chairman.) They are taken up, and then bound over ?—Yes. 7575. They are prosecuted in a sense, but not punished ?—Yes. 7576. {Major Evans-Gordon.) In your experience, which is considerable, of criminal work, what would you say were the criminal characteristics of the foreign population ?—The criminal characteristics of the foreign population are these. Years ago the thief who was so much in evidence in the East End was the ordinary watch-snatcher and women whom wo called " trippers up," who preyed upon drunken seamen, but since the invasion of these aliens these people have invented crimes we have never heard of before. 7577. What sort of thing ?—Forging Russian rouble notes, forging postage stamps, forging Bank of England notes, and even in the recent Bank of England case foreigners were engaged in the crime. 7578. You are speaking of the district in which you_ have been concerned?—Yes. 7579. And these things have come under your obser- vation ?—Yes. 7580. You would say that it is a more scientific class, of crime?—Yes. 7581. Have you come across persons who have been sent to this country who had been previously criminals, in their own country?—Yes, I can mention one place which I raided shortly before I left the service which was kept by a man named Elbone, an escaped murderer- from Russia, and he was extradited and sent back. 7582. Were you after him on the extradition war- rant ?—No, we came across him by accident. 7583. How long had he been in this country ?—He had been about a year. 7584. Then he was identified as this Russian murderer ?—Yes. 7585. (Chairman.) A fugitive from justice?—Yes. He was the keeper of this gaming house, and he was con- victed of keeping it. 7586. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to another- form of offence, the illicit still business, does that go on in your experience ?—Yes, for this last 2Q years there has been a very great number of illicit stills raided, and thousands and thousands of gallons of liquor been destroyed, and penalties and fines amounting to thou^ sands of pounds have been inflicted on these people. Some have been sent to very heavy terms of imprison- ment. It is still going on, and there have been several , raided since I left the service. 7587. What sort of liquor do they make in these places ?—They make a white spirit, and they colour it, to suit the taste, and then it is sold as whisky or rum. 7588. Is it a bad sort of stuff they make?—Yes, it .is. very bad. 7589. How do they market this stuff ?—It is hawked about among the Jewish population from house to hiousu - just before the holiday times. 7590. Is it used in these gaming houses and places of* that kind ?—Yes, it is used in those places. 7591. About the general state of the crime generally,, would you say that the condition of things is better or worse than it was before the invasion was so great?— Worse. 7592. When the English population was a great deal more numerous had you less to do than you had during; the alien invasion ?—Yes. 7593. What forms of crimes would you say that would refer to ?—Since the alien invasion you get so many people who are taken into custody for criminal offence®; all over the country. They live in Whitechapel, but they are taken in different parts of the country. There was the great jewel robbery at Reading, where they wired the lawn. Those people came from Whitechapel. 7594. Foreigners ?—Yes. The same thing applies ta< the man who robbed Lady Mary Trefusis, in iSaxony; he was a Whitechapel man, and the man who committed a robbery at Cherlotte'burg, in Brittany, was a White- chapel man, so they travel to and fro, and those .who are not actually engaged here, go to the provinces and all parts of the Continent. 7595.. Those who are not working neighbourhoods round London?—Yes. 7596. Have you come across organised bands of these- people, like those 12 Germans who were convicted the other day?—Yes. ^ 7597. They inhabit these districts, and they work out- side ?—Yes. There is one place in the neighbourhood, of Whitechapel, called "The Christian Home," infested: with these people. 7598. Are those mostly Germans ?—Mostly Germans. 7599. Have you arrested people in that place ?—Yes,.. many people have been arrested there. 7600. Either by you or your officers ?—Yes. 7601. In this so-called Christian Home?—Yes. They are not Jews. 7602. Has this increase of foreign crime, or crime with* a foreign origin, been commented on by the magistrates to your knowledge ?—To my knowledge it has, and by grand juries. 7603. Would you have to take any of these cases to, Clerkenwell Sessions ?—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 257 7604. Has Judge McConnell commented recently very severely about the increase of foreign crime?—Yes, he has, and Mr, I/oveJand Loveland. 7605. And the grand juries as well ?—Yes. 7606. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) A propos of what you said about the illicit stills, I suppose 'that would ibe what is returned in the police return under the head of " Hawk- ing illicit spirits, or working stills"?—Yes. 7607. You left the police force in 1000?—Yes. 7608. I see, according to the return which I have, but Which has not yet been proved, there were no cases in 1898, and 18 cases in 1899, under that head?—Yes. 76d9. Had you anything to do with those cases ?—Yes. 7610. Was that one large haul ?—'No, that was a num- ber of stills. One case mentioned in that return would be where I stopped a man with two horses and a van, loaded with illicit spirit. 7611. Would that ibe one of the 18 cases ?—Yes. That was going to a public-house, kept by a foreigner. 7612. In 1899?—Yes. 7613. That was rather an exceptional year apparently. There were no cases in the three preceding years accord- ing to this return ?—INo. 7614. There were 18 cases in 1899?—Yes. 7615. In 1900 there were seven cases, and in 1901 three ?—Yes. 7616. Would that foe about right?—Yes, that would be about right. 7617. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is for the H Division ?—Yes. 7618. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is what you are speaking of?—Yes. That is in the H Division alone. i 7619. This is the H or Whitechapel Division?—Yes. 7620. (Chairman.) That was the division of ithe last witness ?—Yes. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Part of the division* The last witness only had part of that. 76>21. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) This is the whole of the H Division?—Yes. I had jurisdiction over the whole of the division, and the officer who was called just now was a sub-divisional inspector. 7622. What was your division?—I was the local detective inspector of the whole of the H Division. 7623. And this is a return by Buperintendeut Mulvany for the whole of the BO Division ?—Yes, but that would not include cases heard in the other East End Divisions, at West Ham, and (Stratford, and those places. 7624. I am now talking of the H Division, and with reference to your statement as to the enormous in- crease of these stills, and I find there were 18 in 1899, 7; in , 19$), and 3 in 1901?—Yes. 7625; (Major Evans-Gordon.) I want to be quite clear about this. Would this return include all the cases which you had dealt with of stills and so on?—In that division. 7626. But would you have dealt with any cases outside the H division ?—Probably. 7627. (Sir K. Digby,) How?—I go anywhere in the East End. 7628. Were you attached to* the H Division?'—I was the l'ocal inspector of the H Division representing Scot- land Yard. 7629. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But your jurisdiction took you outside the H Division ?—Yes, anywhere in the East End. 7630. In all these districts you have described?—Yes. 7631. So that when you speak of the large increase of cases you refer to what you dealt with over and above what v/as in the H Division?—Yes, that will be a return for the H Division ; but if I went over the H Division boundary and went to Stratford, it would not be shown on that return, because that would be another division. 7632. (Sir K. Digby.) But your evidence I understood related to the H Division ?—Yes. 7633. (Lord Rothschild.) Do you think the H Division of Whitechapel differs largely, or is it very similar to the other divisions in the East End ?—Theim is a great difference. 6144. 7634. Is the H Division of Whitechapel worse or better ?—Worse. 7635. (Chairman.) More foreign?—Yes. 7636. (Major Evans-Gordon,) More foreign, and worse?—More foreign, and worse. 7637. (Mr. Vallance.) Do I understand you right, that the crime in the H Division of Wihitechapel was not alone to be measured by the crime scheduled in that division, but that a great many crimes were committed out of that division by persons residing in Whitechapel ? —That is so. 7638. On the other hand, would there not be a con- siderable number of crimes in Whitechapel by persons resident in other parts of the Metropolis 'i—There would be some, but njot many. I have known as many as 30 watches and chains stolen in one day. 7639 With reference to your duty carrying you to the docks upon the arrival of these aliens. You spoke of their unclean condition. Was that in the early days of your duty there ?—Yes. 7640. How imany years did your duty take you to the landing ?—For about 15 years, I should think. I should think it was about 1895 when we started going to the boats, and I used to go down there occasionally, ;right up to the time I left the service. 7641. Did you find in the latter years a considerable improvement ?—There was an improvement. 7642. Were you able to distinguish between the aliens landing from German ships and aliens landing from Russian ports ?:—Yes, you could. 7643. Was one more clean than the other?—The Germans were. 7644. Was that state of cleanliness continuous right through your period, or did it date from the cholera epi- demic in Germany ?—After the cholera epidemic. 7645. After the cholera epidemic, you have noticed a very distinct improvement as regards those landing from German ships from German ports ?—Yes. 7646. But it was not so with those landing from the Russian ports?—No. 7647. But upon the whole they were in a more cleanly condition than they were in the early period ?—Yes, and now lately there has been a slight improvement in their cleanliness, but their clothing is very bad now. 7648. (Chairman.) As regards gambling, there has been a good deal more activity lately in attacking these gambling houses, than there used to be by the police authorities?—Yes, my Lord, there has, but still there were no gambling houses in the East End like there are now. 7649. Wherever they are attacked it is proved, not only in the Jilast End, but all through London, that a great many of those keeping and frequenting the gamb- ling houses are foreigners, I think?—It seems so. 7650. It seems to be rather their habit apparently ?— • Yes, in nearly every alien house you will find they -have a pack of cards. They are inveterate gamblers. 7651. It is a matter of degree amongst many nations, but foreigners seem to be more addicted to it than the British subjects ?—That is so: 7652. According to your evidence, you were conversant with crime, at all events between the years 1892 and 1900?—Yes. 7653. Is it your idea that the crime of robbery and larceny increased or decreased during that time?— One or two years it increased, and then it went down, and, I think, it has been normal. 7654. I have it in this return that the number of charges of robbery and larceny in 1892 were 1,070, and from then it has steadily decreased. In 1897, it reached 870 ; in 1898, 920 ; in 1899, 858, and 1900, which was your last year, 778 ?—Yes. 7655. There was a substantial decrease in those nine years?—Oh, yes, there was. There is another thing I ought to call attention to, and that is, that most of the receivers of stolen goods are foreigners. They work to and fro to the Continent. Just before I leftthe Service I stopped a train on the Great Eastern Railway and took a whole truck load of valuable goods—stolen goods—from the train, which were consigned to a well- known receiver of stolen goods, a foreign receiver. 7656. Would that class of people be the class of alien immigrant we are inquiring into, or would they be Kk Mr. S. White. 17 July 1902.258 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. general citizens of the world, as it were, roaming about S. White, to commit crime?—The thieves would be the class of —— persons you are inquiring about; but the receivers July 1902. would be people of a better standing. 7657. They would not come in here as alien immi- grants ?—No, not the receivers. 7658. We have got here the number of thieves that •have been convicted. You are quite right to give me that information about the receivers. Then, there is a point about the costermongers, upon which you may not be able to give evidence. A good many of these foreigners seem to become costermongers ?—Yes. 7659. There seems to have been a great activity in re- spect of them lately. In 1894 the number of persons charged with obstruction was 94, and in 1901 there were 449 charged, which is the maximum number that has ever been reached. Do1 you know whether there were different instructions given between those years?—No, my Lord, that would not be in my presence. 7660. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You do not know about the judgment in the Queen's Bench Division?—No, that would not be under my jurisdiction at all. 7661. (Major JEvans-Gordon.) Your department was the Criminal Investigation Department ?—Yes. 7662. (Chairman.) You could tell, perhaps, from your general observation. Is it your idea that prostitution lias increased or decreasel in the years between 1892 and 1900?—In my opinion, it has increased. 7663. I only put these figures to you. The figures that are given are the number of persons charged. I suppose, under some Act, for being disorderly prosti- tutes—344 in 1892, which figure had fallen to 228 in 1900?—That is a very delicate question, and a difficult matter to deal with—-prostitution. They do not touch it more than they can possibly help. 7664. Anyhow, the number had fallen off, and of the 228, 200 were British subjects and 28 foreigners. Have you the idea that the majority of these unfortunate women are foreigners ?—-Yes. 7665. I am quite alive to the fact that these figures represent the number of persons charged, but on the dis- parity of numbers, there are 200 British prostitutes to 28 foreigners charged with being disorderly?—Yes. 7666. Yet you say the majority are foreigners ?■—Yes, the majority are foreigners. 7667. How is it that the charges are as 7 to 1?—I could not explain that, my Lord. 7668. What do you base your observation upon. Is it mere general observation ?—General observation, from what I see in the streets. I see more foreign prosti- tutes than I do English. Of course, I do not know all the prostitutes. 7669. (Lord. Rothschild.) You do not know they are prostitutes?—I know some to be prostitutes. 7670. (Chairman.) Through all these years this re- lation of British subjects charged with being disorderly prostitutes to foreigners charged with the same of- fence, is maintained. What I have given is rather more unfavourable to the foreigners than in previous years. In 1892 there were 331 British subjects charged and 13 foreigners. In the next year, 1893, 320 British sub- jects and 14 foreigners. In 18'94, 214 compared with 11 ; in 1895, 254 compared with 23 ; in 1896, 229 com- pared with 22; in 1897, 240 compared with 24 ; in 1898, 290 compared with 32 ; in 1899, 304 compared with 48 ; in 1900, 200 compared with 28. I am not at all suggesting your information is not correct?..... I cannot tell what part of the division those women were arrested in. 7671. The whole of the H Division?—In some -parts of the H Division you would find English prostitutes, and in some parts all foreign. 7672. But the greater contains the less, and this is the whole of the H Division. This is only the number oij people charged, and does not refer to the number of! women who are prostitutes, but it is some evidence that the persons charged are so greatly in excess of British as against foreigners ?—Yes, I see that. 7673. (Major Evans-Gordon,) With regard to the term " British subject," what evidence have you when you are charging these people as to< whether they are British subjects or not ?—Only their own word ; and if they give the name of Peter King or William Jones, you accept it. 7674. There is no further inquiry at all as to their origin ?—None whatever. 7675. When these foreign prostitutes or others are charged, do they accept the position of being prostitutes, or do they give other occupations when they are asked their occupations ?—I could not say. I have never had a charge of prostitution myself* 7676. That point about " British subjects " is rathei an important one. You have got nothing except the bare statement, and that is accepted ?—Yes. 7677. Just as a man's occupation is accepted ?—Yes. 7678. If a man says "I am a tailor," it is put down, and no questions are asked ?—Yes. 76/9. (Chairman.) The name, I suppose, would assisi a little ?—Yes. 7680. (Major JEJvans^Gordon.) Is it not the case within your knowledge that a change of name is frequent among these people ?—Yes. 7681. They are frequently using English names on tfeir shop fronts, and so on?—-Yes. If you go down the Commercial Road you see lots of names of persons I know myself to be foreigners—such names as Mitchell, Dymond, Beaconsfield, Boxer, Knight, White, and such names as those. 7682. All people you know to be foreigners?—Yes. 7683. You know those are not their right names at all ?—I know they are not their right names. Then I should also mention that these people commit murder. 7684. Crimes of violence, we have heard from other witnesses, are as prevalent now as they were before?—• Yes, and there have been as many foreigners executed for capital offences as English in the last 20 years. 7685. (Lord Rothschild.) Do the police as a rule accept the name given without making any inquiry at the time or afterwards?—That depends. If it was an ordinary case of drunk and disorderly, where a man was going t<* be taken before a magistrate, they would accept hia name, but if it was a serious offence, robbery or anything of that kind, the man's name and address would be taken, and he would be remanded for the police to inquire and see whether it was correct or not.MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 259 TWENTIETH DAY. Monday, 21 st July 1902. present : Sir Kjjnelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. The Eight Hon. Lord James op Hereford {Chairman). William Vallance, Esq. Mr. Henry Weston Blake, called ; and Examined. Mr. II. W. Blake. 7686. {Major Evans-Gorclon.) Where do you live?— 33, Lechmere Grove, Battersea. 7687. You are a costermonger ?—I am. 7688; You have been a costermonger all your life? —Not exactly all my life, but for the past 20 years. 7689. You were president of the Costermongers' As- sociation of Great Britain and Ireland ?—Yes. 7690. How long were you president?—Two and a half years. 7691. When did you retire ?—Last June twelvemonth, in June, 1901. 7692,. That is a year ago. Is the Federation still an important body ?•—-Not at present; it was; it has now ceased to have much influence. 7693. Why?—iSiinply because it requires the services of one man's whole voluntary work to keep the thing going. I was connected with it for some time, and I gave up all the time I could to it, until I could not do it any longer, and I had to resign; and the result is that the Federation is broken up. 7694. You gave it up on account of the great labour attaching to it?—Yes, and for several other minor reasons, which, of course, it is not worth while discus- sing here. . 7695. Was it essentially a British Federation ?—• Almost, absolutely, but there were isolated cases; we had no definite rule, whereby we did not receive aliens, but we scarcely had an alien throughout any of the blanches. 7696. In Fulham, I believe, there was an absolute rule'?—One of the branches which we had in Fulham absolutely refused to take any foreigners. I will give you briefly the reason why they did it. They had a young man who came from Germany, or some other country, arid lie had not been a member of the union very long before he imported his brother into the union; and then he wanted to introduce three or four others. The English costers saw the danger which might arise from so many foreigners coming into Fulham, and that thereby they might be deprived of their living, and they immediately passed a rule to exclude all foreigners from belonging to the society. Those two still remained in the society, but they would not accept any others. 7697. You have always taken a great interest in the costers' organisation?—Yes, for nearly 20 years. 7698. You were editor of a newspaper for costers ?—. Yes ; I was editor of the costers' newspaper. 7699. That newspaper has come to an end?—-It has ceased to exist since I left the Federation. 7700. You wrote an: article some time ago, which I saw in the " Pall Mall Gazette " ?—Yes. 7701. The article was called " The Alien Coster " ?— Yes. your 7702. It wasi signed restriction on the selling of ice-cream by Italian cream-vendors on Sunday, is there?—No, that is carried on every day in the week ; the trade is1 growing enormously. At the corner of every street, almost, throughout London, and in the back streets, the children are encouraged to come and ■speiid their halfpence by these men ; and, in my par- ticular neighbourhood, it is not only the trading I 'Complain about, but, as a well-behaved citizen, which, I say I am, I think it is an annoyance as well. The men. gather together hobbledehoys, boys and girls, and they spend their halfpence on ice-cream all day on a Sunday. 7739. What sort of stuff is this ice-cream ; is it ..-wholesome?—It should be, if made properly of eggs, snilk and loaf sugar, and frozen; but, as to a good deal of it, I doubt whether it ever sees much eggs and milk. 7740. Are the conditions under which these things mre made insanitary ?—I could not say, definitely. One can only use one's discretion, but I should judge by the amount of accommodation and the number of people they have got in their houses, they must be any- thing but sanitary. 7741. What is the alternative concoction to eggs, -sugar and milk ?—-Cornflour, and a cheap substitute of another kind added, with a little unwholesome colour- ing makes up what they term cheap ice-cream for children, which is more or less injurious, I should -say. 7742. Is there any standard for ice-cream?—Do you mean from the sanitary point of view? 7743. Does it come under the Food and Drugs Adul- teration Act ?—No, but I think it should. 7744. There is no standard of -goodness or of badness ? -—Not to my knowledge. 7745. So that they can make it pretty well of any stuff they like ?—-Exactly. 7746. You object to this alien competition generally, on the ground of the conditions under which they work, and the competition thai; they bring against you as .an English working man?—Yes. I do not object to an alien, because he is an alien—I should like that particularly understood—I object to him for the con- ditions under which he works and competes with us. I hobject to the infernal sweating system under which ' they employ labour. 7747. Italians, deal in those things which you have specified, ice-cream, baked potatoes, chestnuts, and hot • drinks in winter, and knife-grinding?—Yes. 7748. What- do the others deal in, the East End costers ?—The East End foreign Jews usually deal in sweetstuffs, cheap photo, frames, haberdashery, and Bruimmaigerri jewellery. 7749. And toys?—Also toys. 7750. And also vegetables, I suppose, and poultry ; and fish ?—Except in their own locality, in the neigh- bourhood of the East End, where many of them deal in poultry and fruit, they do not come into the gutter in other parts of London to compete with the English poultry or fruit dealers. 7751. Now, you say Italian people are imported ; do you mean that they are deliberately sent for to work for a low wage?—Yes. A large number of the . Italians during .the! summer realise enough money out of ice-cream to go back to their own country in the winter, and spend the winter in their own country— whether on a holiday or in occupation, I could not say. When they come over again, if they have sufficient money, they usually bring two or three or four others. You can see it for yourself. I have seen them myself at the beginning of this summer in Battersea; there -was one man sent to the railway station with a barrow, -and he had their boxes and luggage, some tied up in «a pocket-handkerchief, others had it in their pockets, and others had old hampers and old baskets. There Mr. were six or eight Italians going down Falcon Road, -H- W, Blake. Battersea, looking about as strangers would ; and the tT~"ioao next week they were out with a barrow vending ice- July 1902. cream. 7752. What is done with them when they arrive ; are they taken to some particular place to lodge?—They are taken to their employers, and they work for them for a shilling or two a week as wages and, so-called, board and lodging. 7753. You say in your notes of evidence that people arrive at Kingston ; is that the Kingston near Rich- mond?—That is Asylum Road, Kingston, Surrey. I work round there once a fortnight or once a week. Asylum Road, Kingston, is a small street, with about 50 houses in it, and one-half of them are monopolised by Italians. They go out with either organs or ice-cream. Originally, there was one man, or two men came there ; they either had a bit of money or they got money by some means, and they imported all the rest of them that are down there. Previous to arriving in Asylum Road, Kingston, a gentleman—he is a working man, but I call a working man a gentleman until he is proved to be otherwise—told me that this Italian went to the proprietor of the houses and offered, instead of 5s. 6d. a week, 8s. 6d., provided he wofixM left hJirn thie whole of the houses. The proprietor let him the whole of the houses, and this Italian turned them into one-room. tenements, and he has four or five families in each house, and he lets each room for 4s., making from 16s. to £1 a week out of each house; whereas, before, the working man used to pay 5s. 6d. for each house. 7754. How long do these Italians go on living under these wretched conditions ?—They seem to remain here until they die, unless they make sufficient money ; some of them do go back to their own country, but the majority turn into employers themselves and sweat others. 7755. They go home and fetch more of these people ?—Yes, or send for them, or advertise for them. 7756. And they are becoming very numerous ?—That is hardly the word for it; we are getting inundated with them all over the place, 7757. Not only in London, but in other towns?— Certainly. 7758. What sort of characters have these Italians got ?—I do not think they have got any ; they are very desperate and very violent; they think nothing of using a knife, or knocking you down with a brickbat, or anything they can lay hands on. They are men you cannot hold an argument with. 7759. They get excited at onice?—They are very 7760. Do they wander about or settle down in one district like they have at this place in Kingston?— As a rule, my experience is, that they locate them- selves—they scarcely ever leave the neighbourhood in which they live, except it is on a Bank Holiday, when they take up their positions on a place like Wanstead Flats or Hampstead Heath, or round some fair to make a decent day's work on account of its being a Bank Holiday. 7761. Have you noticed in the newspapers lately, dur- ing the last few days, a desperate fight with Italians ?— I saw a slight account of it. 7762. In which they used knives That is the general character of them, as I read it. 7763. They very nearly murdered a policeman ?'—Yes. 7764. Three or four of them were concerned in that? —Yes-. 7765. You do not know whether they were costers or ice-cream vendors ?—No. 7766. Where did they live ?—They live in the neigh- bourhood of Clerkenwell, I believe. 7767. It was iat Whitbourn Street, St. Pancras. I do not know whether they lived there, but that is the sort of (thing goes oni?—There are exceptions, of course; they would have been a bad lot if there were not. There are exceptions, but, generally, that is their character. 7768. They give the police a lot of trouble ?—That is so. 7769. Then there are the organ grinders; that is an- other branch of the same street trade ?—Yes.262 ROYAL COMMISSION, ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION . Mr. Blake. Lc|jily 1902. 7770. Do you know anything about the children they take about with them?—No, except that they are very young. I have travelled the country a good deal. You find , them more in the country places than in the big towns. You find quite young children, from eight years to 14 years of age, playing a musical instrument, or With a monkey, or something of that kind, and they appeal to the sympathetic ladies and gentlemen in the villas and mansion residences in various parts of the* country, and, generally speaking, I think they come off very well. 7771. Are these the children of the people who bring them over, or are they imported children to appeal to the sympathy of our people? Do you know anything! about that ?—I could not say; but certainly they speak with a foreign tongue. 7772. They are foreign children V—Yes. 7773. You do not know anything about their parent- age?—No, I do not. 7774. The people who employ them take their earn- ings, I suppose?—Yes, I guess that. 7775. You do not know anything about how these children are treated, or how they live ?—No, I could not tell you. They are treated anything but decently and kindly, because I have met them sometimes when they have been very sad and dejected, and when they were, crying and saying they have done very bad, and they must take home some money, or else they would get a good hiding, but those have been isolated cases. 7776. • You cannot say whether there is any regular traffic in these children imported for this purpose ?!—■ No, I cannot. 7777. Now, about the Russian and Polish costers : is the competition with them equally injurious to your people as^ English people?—Only so far as the over- crowding is concerned, where the space is limited in any particular market. 7778. You mean the overcrowding of the gutter?—< Yes, where the space is limited. Their competition is equally as keen with us as any other foreigner, and it is principally on that account that our trouble has come about throughout London. 7779. There are very large numbers of them engaged in this street trade ?—Absolutely swarms of them. 7780. There is a foreign costers' union in the East End!—Yes. 7781. The existence of that union is not detrimental to you?—No, not as a union. 7782. It looks after the interests of their own people ? —Yes, it looks after the interests of costers generally, the same as our union does of us. 7783. Can you trace any distinct loss of market, owing to this Russian and Polish competition?:—-Well, I can only talk, so far as my own district is concerned, where I live, where I am well known—namely, in Battersea. There the shopkeepers bitterly complain to me not so much of the opposition .ais of the hlaibits and manners in which the Jews live. They deal in haberdashery and cheap jewellery, and they are drawn up outside a tre- mendously big 'premises, where, a gentleman did a trade with well-to-do people, and they used to drive up in their carriages. These Jews refused to move, and the result was, a general agitation sprang up, and we fought the case in the police courts, but, I am sorry to say, in the finish, we all had to go, English and foreigner alike. 7784. Was there any more opposition on the part of the shopkeeper to the Jewish costers than there was to the English costers ?—Considerably; I was deputed dur- ing my term of office in the Federation to visit several tradesmen, and find out their views, and I almost always, without exception, found that there was a very bitter feeling amongst the tradesmen against these foreign Jews. In Camidien Town, a tradesman told me " If you can get these people away, the trouble will be got over." I pointed out that there was no freehold) in the gutter, and that was a matter of impossibility. He said, " Very well; then you must all go," and we all did go. Of course, I was not there, but our men all had to go. 7785. There were constant disturbances between the two classes of costers—the alien and the English costers ? —That is so. 7786. And that was not a nice thing for the trades- people ?—No. 7787. Those disturbances go on now ?—Yes, more or- less. 7788. And the antagonism of the local authority and . the shopkeepers is due to the enormous increase in theses people ?—Exactly. 7789. The increase of the costers generally?—Yes, the- increase in what I term the gutter traffic. It is brought about by the immigration of these foreigners into this country. 7790. You say if this unrestricted immigration goes, on, and this unrestricted competition with costers is allowed, you will be deprived of your means of living —Yes. , 7791. Like the tradesmen have in the East End of London ?—Yes ; I do not think there is any alternative. If this goes on, and all other traffic is increasing at the same time, and these continual quarrels and disturb- ances between us and the aliens go on, the public and. other people will be so bitterly opposed to street traffic that I can see nothing else before us, except for som e - oif us, who are a bit more useful than others, who will , be able to find work, thatn to go intoo- the pauper classes, or into prison, or to starve—that is the only outlook I can see. 7792. Is a hawker the same as a coster ?!—Not neces- darily; a hawker may be a coster, but a coster may not be a hawker. A coster does not always hawk. A„ coster may continually, year in, year1 out, stand at one particular spot in the market place, but a hawker - will hawk round the country, as I do myself, except on Saturday nights, when I locate myself in one particular spot. 7793. Would a man pushing a barrow of strawberries about in the City be a hawker?—No, because he does > not leave the town. A hawker is a man who hawks- from town to town. 7794. Does a hawker require a licence?—Yes. 7795. And a cos term onger ?—Yes.; I pay £2 a year. 7796. Whether the goods are perishable or not"?—No ;. only in the case of non-perishable goods. 7797. Then he has to have a licence?—Yes. 7798. Can you go about with cabbages and potatoes - and things like that without a licence?'—Yes. 7799. It requires no licence to do that ?—No> licence - whatever. 7800. Anybody can take a barrow of perishable ■ articles into the street?—Yes. 7801. And do the best they can with them ?—Yes. 7802. Are there many Russian and Polish hawkers?" —There are a few, but there are a very few. They seem to adopt the habit of localising themselves and stand- ing in one particular spot or going from, spot to spot . during the week. 7803. They do not go into the country ?—No ; but you . do occasionally meet one or two with a hand-bag or basket. I have never met any with a pony barrow or hand barrow. 7804. Do you know anything about the powers and . duties of the police with reference to the costermon- gering and hawking trades?—No more than this, that , i believe the police regulations lay down, that each man is allowed to ply his calling in any recognised market place with a barrow. They must be three feet wide by nine feet long, and not more, and provided he ■ keeps a space of four feet apart from his next com- panion, and carries on his business without being an annoyance to the shopkeepers, or the public, he is* allcwed to carry it on—that, generally, I believe is the police regulation. 7805- The police must prevent costermongers causing ; an obstruction ?—Yes. 7806. They can order them to move on?—Yes. it the costermonger, in the opinion of the police, is an obstruction they can order him to move on, or summons the costermonger for causing obstruction. 7807. Would it be possible for the police to exercise ■* undue preference for one coster over another?—It would be possible. 7808. You do not suggest they do so?—I do not sug- gest they do ; it would be quite possible. 7809. Would the power of the policeman extend to - the people dealing with the costermonger as well as to the costermonger himself ?—Yes, the police have -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 263 rpower in the event of a costermonger creating an ob- struction—I believe they have the power, and cer- tainly I have seen it done, of driving the people on, *or lather telling them to move on, and thus, of course, ' depriving the costermonger of his trade. 7810. Getting the crowd away from the stall ?—Yes, where there are more than two or three people round r a stall. 7811. Do you find these people not being able to speak English a cause of their not being understood by the police?—It is very convenient not to understand '.English sometimes ; when 'the isihoplkeeper asks ithem to move on, or the police, they usually just shrug their shoulders, and reply, "Me not understand," or some- thing of that kind; but in the event of its being an advantage to them in any shape or form, they some- how or other thoroughly understand English then. 7812. Now, there are some figures I should like to take you over in the Ceiisus returns. I should like to Tiear your view about, it, because they are rather re- markable. Here is Table 37 B : " Occupations and country of birth of foreigners, males and females, age ten years and upwards, enumerated in the County of London, 1901." I see in the coster trade: Russians, "352 males, 51 females ; Poles, 112 males and 18 females ; then I find Italians 1,037 males and 43 females. There are numbers of other small ones, Austria, and so on;; Tbut these are the ones who have been chiefly dealing with—Russians, and Poles, and Italians, these are for the whole of the County of London?—That is, roughly, rnnder 1,700. 7813. For those three different nationalities?—Yes. 7814. What should you say about that?—'I should say ' it is a wilful mis-statement. 7815. A mis-statement?—Yes, jjerhaps "wilful" is Tather strong, but it is a gross mis-statement. 7816. In which direction ?—I should say in the East "End alone there are nearer 1,000,000 than 1,700. You oould count them there any day, irrespective of Sundays, if you go down Middlesex Street. Even to-day or to- morrow morning, if you went down Middlesex Street ; you could count more than 1,700 in a morning, without ; any other part of 'London. I cannot understand why : these figures are put down at all. 7817. (Sir 'Kenelm Digby.) With regard to these * people being employed by others, is that very general, thdti they work for other people or on their own ac- «■ count?—The general practice, as far as I find is, that 'they arrive here penniless, and destitute, and they usu- ally seek out one of their own countrymen—if they ■ have not been already sent for—to find employment. /After they have been here a time, if they can scrape : a few pounds together, they start on their own ; then, if they are a bit fortunate, and able to provide some- body else with a barrow or truck, they start them to- 7818. What do you understand by a costermonger ? —I understand, originally, a costermonger was a man who sold apples. The 'definition of a coster was thef ■coster apple. ^ In years gone by, before trucks and ; barrows were invented, there was a famous apple called - the coster, and the public so liked it that people took i to selling it, and hence sprang from that a general '■•^istom of street-trading, and everybody is nicknamed iifrom that—costers. 7819. Is your idea of the costermonger anyone who is -stationary and sells at a particular place, or anyone • who travels about ?—My idea is any man who gets his ' living in the street. 7820. Would you include an organ-grinder ?—He is :: not selling anything really. 7821. You mean any man who gefts his living in the '-street by selling ?—Yes, I believe the Act says: " Coster or Itinerant Trader." 7822. You would call an'ice-cream man a coster?_ .A coster or itinerant trader. 7823. The costers have;had a very bard time lately? -----Yes. 7824. Not only from the competition of aliens, but the law has 'been a little more severely pressed ?—Yes " Without wishi'ig you gentlemen any Tiarm, I only wish it was posible to place you in our place for a j month, and you would . alter .your views. We do not - have such a rosy time as some people imagine. 7825. There have been one or two decisions which fehave affected you?—Yes, and very harsh decisions. 7826. What has really affected you has been, that Mr. it has been decided that you are liable to the ordinary H. W. Blake, law of obstruction?—Yes. —r 7827. And that you have noti got the protection ^ July 1902. which you thought you had under the Metropolis Management Act?—-That is so, and it is within the power, I believe, now of any shopkeeper to summons us and get us turned away. 7828. Up to within about two years ago you were practically quite safe, so long as you complied with the regulations of the Commissioner of Police ?—That is so. 7829. (Chairman.) That was under the Act of 1867? —That is so. 7830. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Now it has been decided that any shopkeeper or local authority cai^L take pro- ceedings, and proceed as for an obstruction quite apart from any protection of that sort ?—Yes. We have no law to protect us. 7381. (Chairman.) Not a general obstruction of the highway, but a particular obstruction to the person complaining. That was the effect of the judgment? —'Yes. 7832. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) For a long time what was thought was, that so long as you complied with the regulation of the Commissioner of Police you were practically safe?—Just so. 7833. The police did not interfere with you, unless there was some real obstruction—unless you violated those regulations?—We never had any complaints against the police in any shape or form ; whilst we conducted ourselves decently and respectably we found we had favour with them. (Chairman.) I believe this is the result in the words of one of the judges : " The utmost effect that the ex- ception in favour of costermomgers can have is, that the magistrate in order to convict must find that there) is a real and substantial annoyance in fact, and hei would not be justified in convicting merely because the costermonger does something which would not be justi- fied because the street is a highway. The magistrate must in order to convict come to the conclusion not merely 'that the technical offence of' obstructing the highway is being committed, but that there is obstruc- tion in fact." That is the law as it stands now. 7834. (Sir KeneJm Digby.) You would regard that as rather a stronger rule than what prevailed before, when you were thought to be only under the regulations of the police ?—That is so. 7835. (Mr. Vallance.) Do the foreign costers engage in exactly the same classes of street-trading as the English costers?—Many of them do. 7836. So that there is actual direct competition?—) Direct competition. 7837. And the difficulty is not the difficulty of pitch merely?—Not entirely. 7838. With reference to the ice-cream man, was there previous to the foreigners coming into the streets any trade of that kind carried on by the Eng- lish ?—-May I ask you to repeat that question ; I do not quite follow your meaning. 7839. Prior to the Italians carrying on the ice-cream trade in the streets, was there a.n ice-cream trade car- ried on in the streets by the English ?—Almost exclu- sively by English. 7840. There was viouslv. ice-cream trade?—Yes—pre- 7841. Do you know what the definition of a hawker is ?—I may be wrong, but as I understand the defini- tion is a man that hawks—that is to say, takes his goods from town to town. (Chairman.) What is the definition of the word tot "hawk"? 7842. (Mr. Vallance.) What do you imply by hawk- ing?—My definition of hawking is, carrying goods from town to town with a view of trying to dispose of them. 7843. (Chairman.) From place to place?—Yes. 7844. (Mr. Vallance.) A man merely selling goods in the streets of London is not liable to pay a hawker's licence ? Yes, unless he is selling goods which are not perishable, and then he comes within the In- land Revenue, and they make him pay. 7845. The coster who carries on a non-perishable goods trade is liable to pay a licence for hawking? —That is so. 5 '2-64 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION " Mr. 7846. Any hawking from place to place would be H. W. Blake liable to a licence?—Yes, 1 July 1902. 7847. W!hat is the licence ?—£2 a year I pay. 7848. Is there not a 5s. licence ?—That is a .pedlar's certificate. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) This is the definition of haw- ker : " Hawker means any person who travels with a horse or other beast bearing or drawing burden, and goes from place to place, or to other men's houses, carrying to sell, or exposing for sale, any goods, wares or merchandise, or exposing samples or patterns of any goods, wares or merchandise, to be afterwards delivered; and includes any person who travels by any means of locomotion to any place in which he does not usually reside or carry on business, and there sells or exposes for sale any goods, wares or merchandise in or at any house, shop, room, booth, stall, or other place whatever, hired or used by him for that purpose." (Chairman.) That would not include a man who only walked on his feet. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) No, he must have a cart. (Chairman.) Or any other means of locomotion. That would include a motor oar 7849. (Mr. VaTlance.) Can you tell the Commission what the definition of a pedlar is as distinguished from that of a hawker?—A pedlar, as I understand it, is a man who carries his goods on his back or in a basket. 7850. (Chairman.) The Fulham Union objected to four foreigners coming in?—Yes. 7851. Would they have equally objected to four Yorkshire men ?—No. 7852. What they were objecting to was the fact that} the foreigners would carry on their business in different conditions to which they could P—Yes, exactly—unfair competition conditions. 7853. What is the result of that objection ? Do the foreigners come in and carry on their work without joining the union?—No, they do not. 7854. Why not?—Because the men are so organised. The whole of the men that stand in North End Road belong to the union, and there is only sufficient room for the union men. 7855. They defend themselves?—Yes. 7856. They see no foreigners come in?—No. 7857. Where there is a union they can defend them- selves ?—That is so ; they have taken the matter in their own hands. 7858. It must be limited to the costermongers, there- fore ; it would not refer to other trades ?—No, only men with hand-barrows or trucks, who stand in the gutter. 7859. Your great objection to these foreigners is that they can sell goods at a lower price than the English costermonger?—Yes, on account of the miser- able conditions under which they live, and the sweats ing system which they adopt in employing labour. 7860. The sweating system exists in other trades and affects British men and women who are not foreigners ?—Yes. 7861. It is the sweating system you would object to, whether* exercised in respect of foreigners or in respect of British workmen ?—Exactly ; I could not object to a foreigner provided his conditions were the same as the conditions of an Englishman. 7862. But you would object to an Englishman if he were sweated like a foreigner ?—-Yes. 7863. It is the sweating system you object to?— Yes, principally. 7864. The result is the low price. Do you regard it as any benefit to the public that they get their goods at a low price .Broadly speaking, I do not. 7865. Buying in a cheap market is not a virtue in your eyes ?—-Not always. 7866. Or^ever?—Not always. 7867. Why do you say you do not think buying goods at a low price is a benefit to the consumer?_ Because very often they are produced by sweated labour and low wages. 7868. But I am speaking of the benefit to the con- sumer ?—Directly, to the consumer, on the face of it, it does appear a benefit, but, generally speaking, to the country, in my opinion, it is not a benefit. 7869. That, of course, is a different question, but if a person is very poor, perhaps one of the pefsons sweated, surely it is a benefit to be able to buy articles of consumption at a low price?—I do not dispute it for a moment. 7870. Therefore, there is some benefit?—Yes, if that is a benefit to buy an article at a ridiculously low? price owing to the wages of a man who can hardly exist in producing them. If that is a benefit, then, of course, it is a benefit. 7871. It is a benefit to the consumer ?—Yes ; but nationally I should think it is a calamity. 7872. I quite understand there are two sides to the question. Now, what is the result of the sweating producing the low price? Does the English coster- monger bring down his price, or does he stand out and refuse to come down ?—There is no alternative. 7873. What is the result?—The result is, the Eng- lish costermonger must compete with the foreigner or go away where there is no foreign competition. 7874. Then he does reduce ?—He has to reduce. 7875. Of course, if he were selling at a loss he could not reduce?—That is so. 7876. He does not sell at a loss?—In some cases we are compelled to. 7877. But take the year round, you could not get a living if you did?—-No. 7878. The reduction which benefits the consumer results in the British workman reducing his price, but not beyond a limit which enables him to sell at some profit?—That is so. 7879. I was going to ask you, but I think Mr. Yallance has asked you about it—as to the ice-cream ; has the competition reduced the ice-cream trade?-— There is no competition in the ice-cream trade; it is almost exclusively carried on by Italians. 7880. You said there had been a market previously ? —Yes, previous to the Italians, but now the English- men have been driven out of the trade. 7881. Entirely?—Almost entirely. 7882. Nobody suffers from the competition in that case as to price ?—Except the men who are driven out; they may be suffering still. 7883. But they have gone into happier grounds, we will hope?—They may be suffering still; their living has been taken absolutely away from them. 7884. At present there is no competition?—At pre- sent there is none, except among the Italians them- selves. 7885. I do not know that it is a benefit to eat a great quantity of ice-cream ; but, still, the consumer does get his ice-cream cheaper?—Cheaper, yes, and in larger quantities for his money. 7886. The result we will not trace?—No, it is not worth while going into what it is made of. Now, my Lord, may I say one word? I do not want to detain you gentlemen very long, but I do hope you will use your influence and powers to try. and alter the state of affairs. I can assure you we have found it for some time past very hard to exist on account of the competition and the state in which these men live, and we find it now almost impossible to keep- body and soul together, and many of us find it almost impossible to pay our way. Our whole anxiety is. to pay the landlord and keep the children respectable, and we believe if another sort of society was to exist among us, or these people were stopped coming into the country, that we should be able to live better and have more comfortable living for ourselves our families, and, generally, there would be a better ordered state of society among the costermongers, who I am sorry to say at present have a bad name. Further- more, we do complain, and we can prove it in some cases, of instances where the foreigner has preference over the Englishman. There are privileges granted to foreigners that the Englishman cannot have, and, if you will allow me to.keep you for one moment, I will illustrate that by an instance that occurred1-'at Bourne- mouth. On the sands the Bournemouth Borough Coun- cil allow Italians and other1 foreigners. to vend their wares in preference to Englishmen. Why, I cannot understand. I went down there, and we held a meet-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 265 ing, and I advised our men to go on the sands and sell side by side with the foreigners. The result was our men were taken before the magistrates and convicted, while the foreigners were still allowed to go on with their trade as heretofore. We appealed against the decision of the Bournemouth magistrates in London, and we got the decision reversed. The judges said the men were justified in selling, side by side with the foreigners; but now the Bournemouth magistrates, in spite of that decision, will not allow our own men to sell on their sands, while, at the same time, the foreigners are allowed to be there. A similar case existed in Pimlico, not far from this hall. There one of our men stood With an barrow selling p«as and potatoes to the large public who live in the Peabody Buildings. He was brought before the magistrates and fined. A month or two afterwards an Italian sets up an ice-barrow. This man has been committed to prison, for stabbing a boy, but he was allowed to carry on his calling, and the Englishman has had to go somewhere <4se or starve. I say that is a bad state of affairs, and I can hardly hold my-feelings on the subject some- times. My blood runs hot when I think of it, and I hope you will do your best to alter the state of affairs. If you do that you will earn the thanks of the whole* of the costermongers throughout London. 7887. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you quite right about the Bournemouth conviction ? Was it not because the bye-law was a bad bye-law ?—T?n^' ^ • man .^e. clas:s that you mentioned, Phillips, is a capitalist in his way, and employs a number of people to take out his goods in barrows for him ?—Yes. 7935. Has he to have a licence for each of them?^— o;, I never knew him to have a licence. They stand in recognised markets; they don't shove round the streets with the goods, and call in at doors. 7936. I conclude from what you say that, seeing that there are so many employers, costermongering in their case is profitable, and the trade has increased to such an extent that the shopkeepers regard the coster- mongers as competing with them ?—Oh, yes, they do. 'They say before these people came they had no trouble at all; whatever they had. to sell they used to sell, but these foreigners come and deliberately stick outside their place with the same goods as they sell, and sell at a lower rate than they, can afford to sell at, and in- jure their trade. 7937. Were not the costermongers, before the alien invasion, competitors with the shopkeepers ?_No. It is only the foreigners who sell the goods at a lower price. The English costermonger has to get a fair living, because he has to pay his way, and keep hisMINUTES. OF EVIDENCE. 267 $i:fe* '&nd family^ and sometimes he has a. donkey to keep, and a place to put it in. He cannot sleep where: his donkey) is/ like the foreigner, wpuld. if- he had one. . 7938! Have the. costermongers in this way attracted people " to "the street, and attracted customers to the shops?--Yes./ There is no doubt that, as they turn/ the costermongers out of the market place, it makes it bad for the trade of the shops, but at the same time it makes it bad for the poor devil whom they turn away. ; (Chairman.) I)o you say it makes it bad for the shops1-^Yes,~ in my opinion. I do not say it would be in this part of the town', but in the East End it would, because' the costermongers fetch trade to the shops as well as to the stalls. People come to the stalls, and they see - things they like in the shops ; they, do not always buy at the stalls. 79^0. (Major Evans-Gordon.) According to you then, the moite costermongers there are the more customers will be attracted ?—If they Were to deal fair, and give them a fair chance there would foe, but they do noi;. These foreign costermongers won't give either the shop- keepers or the English costermongers a chance. We do not object to foreign costermongers if they would only work on the same terms as ourselves, "live and let live." That is all we ask. Every Thursday night at our union our chaps come up and say, " Why should we, as Englishmen, have to be interfered with by these foreigners." I try to smooth it over and say, "We are doing the best we can, let the matter drop." They come, up -again on the next Thursday and say, " Why should we be interfered with." 7941: The shopkeepers do not like them, becauser they put up awnings, and sell the goods at lower pricey in front of the shop windows ?—■Quite so. 7942. Are these districts where the English, coster- mongers used to carry on a thriving business now swarming with these alien costermongers?:—There is one place in Hoxton where I was born and bred in. Fourteen of fifteen years ago you could go up-there on Monday morning, and you would see two, and they were two- of the very old Jews. Now you can go up there, and count at least 100, and there is no chance for an Englishman if he comes along. There are plenty of our chaps in our union who depend on one place to get a living—they depend on one market- others in the union go all round the globe; but for these who come casually from all different places, when they come down to get a pitch, as they do on Monday morn- ing, there is no room, and they have to go away without getting a pitch at all. 7943. You say you have lost a large number of coster- mongers in that way by the alien immigration?—On, yes. 7944. And that the English costermonger owes his declining trade to this alien competition?—That is always the complaint they make. 7945- Is the feeling against these aliens very bitter ? —Shocking. 7946. Increasingly so?—Every Thursday night we have as many as 40 or 50 in the room, and one after another they say : " I went to so-and-so to get a pitch, and I couldn't get one, and had to come home. I didn't, earn a penny." 7947. (Chairman.) What becomes-of their goods?—■ The best part of these chaps go from market to market with lace and miscellaneous good that are not perish- able. There are not many people who travel about in our part of the town with vegetables, fish, and that sort of stuff. They have their regular pitches. When they get up in the morning at five or six o'clock to se- cure their pitch before they go to market, they put their stalls out before they go, whereas, if they left it till they come home from market to sell their fish, vegetables, or whatever it may be, they would find a Jew there. If you say : " I have stood here a number 'of years," they say, " I was here first," and. if you inr terfere with them, they blow a whistle and then up comes the policeman. I do not say the policeman is against us—not in the least—but he has to do his duty. In some cases the policeman might say : " The man has stood here for a great number of years—go away." Then they tell the policeman, " The law sa-ys^ I was here first and I am going to stop," and that sort of thing. There is another instance I can give ypn. When we have a procession and march round the streets with our band and banners, some oL our chaps would 6144. follow us with ginger beer, and they would sell a bottle W. Balll of lemonade for 1-Jd. or Id. Now we have foreigners following our processions with ginger beer at ^d. a bottle, so the Englishman has to turn it up. He can- not buy it under lOd. a dozen. 7948. Is it of equal quality?—I cannot say, I have not tasted it, but our chaps can't buy it under lOd. a dozer and these people sell it at J>d. a bottle or £d. a glass. 7949. (Major Uvans-Gordon.) Where is that stuff made?—Somewhere in Petticoat Lane*—a man named Levy makes it. Some of the chaps make a good living in this way, because, sometimes there is a procession everyday for something or other—for the hospitals, and Hospital Sundays, and that sort of thing. 7950. You say the bitterness of feeling is increasing on .that question among the costermonger class gener- ally ?—Yes. 7951. Do you think it is developing into a serious condition of things?—If something isn't done be- fore long, there will be'some of our chaps doing murder or something of that, because it is getting so that their wives and children can't get anything to eat. A man goes out four or five days, and he come home the same as he goes out. Where my brother stands now with his stall, my father stood before me, and I came out one morning, and found a whole family—father,mother and three or four children sitting on their bundles of goods in my stall. What could I do ? It was on a Saturday morning. If I did not sell my goods, I shouldn't have anything with which to keep "my wife and seven children. What did I do? I picked up their bundles and threw them out. 7952'. (Chairman.) Were they aliensYes. This was seven o'clock in the morning when I came out ana found them sitting on their bundles of goods. 7953. For sale?—Yes—bundles of lace. They had all their things put together. The family of them had a bundle each sitting on. They don't take their barrows to their standing place. They get there with these bundles, pitch them down, and one goes down a turn- ing and borrows a barrow, and they put their goods on it. They pay 2d. or 3d. for the barrow, and put their goods on it and sell them. 7954. (Mr. Vallance.) You say these foreigners are able to compete with the English costermongers, be- cause the majority of them are employees rather than masters ?—Yes. 7955. The master goes to market and buys the goods and these men are merely salesmen ?—Yes. ? 7956. So they are able to compete %—Yes. 7957. Do they sell precisely the same class of goods? In some cases they do. I can tell you of another in- stance in the china and glass trade. There is one man who has a lot of stuff consigned to him from Ger- many, and on the bottom of this stuff there are the words Made in Germany." If any of our men in the trade go to buy some of these goods he won't serve them He will tell them : " No, there are none for sale," and he disposes of them all to his own people, and he can afford to sell this stuff a lot cheaper than our Eng- lish make. If the public can buy two good sized basins for Id., they will not give you Id. for one, simply because you tell them it is of English make. 7958. Does this competition extend to vegetables and perishable articles ?—Not so much. 7959. It is what I may call dry goods .Such as linen, drapery, lace, and china and glass, and that sort of thing. 7960. Is the area of your union Hoxton only?_That is our branch. 7961. Your members do not come from any area be- yond No. We have branches in different neighbour- hoods. 7962. In these streets, where these costers stand, do you know of any case where the traders themselves have things standing outside?—Yes. 7963. There are a good many of them ?—Yes. 7964. Beyond that, do the costers carry on the same trade, or sell the same goods as the traders in that street?—Some of these foreign Jews would have the cheek to come and pitch outside a linen draper's shop with linen drapery. 7965. You spoke of the injury done to tradesmen by L L 2EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: \fr. W. Ball, these awnings. Are these awnings confined to these —— foreign stands?—The best part of them. We find im \l July 1902!® our union if our chaps are asked not to do anything they ' do not, if they know it is objectionable. If a shop- keeper says: " You don't want your top up to-day, it is a fine day," they will take it down, but these other people would not. 7966. (Sir. Kenelm Digby.) Does the system of employ- ing other people to sell prevail at all with Englishmen,, or is everybody on his own account ?—Yery little. You do not find many cases. 7967. Your union is a union of costermongers, is it? —Yes—a Costermongers' Union. 7968. There is not the relation of employers and em- ployed at all?—No—only costermongers. 7969. For the protection of the trades?1—Yes. 7970. What nationalities are these people that you have to deal with ?—In our place, Hoxton and Dalston, they-are foreign Jews—Poles. 7971. Have you any Italians?1—We have a few, but we do not find very much fault with them there. The others are our trouble. In this part of the town, it might be the Italians who would be the trouble, but in Hoxton, Dalston, and Kingsland it would only be the foreign Jews. 7972. Russians or Poles ?—'They are all mixed nation- alities. "Some are Poles and some are other kinds of Jews—Russians and Germans, and all kinds. 7973. Trade has not been stopped by the local autho- rity ; it goes on to a very considerable extent ?—'They have turned the costers away from Dalston, Hackney, and Stoke Newington. 7974. When they turn them away from places where they have been accustomed to stand, do they offer them other places?1—Yes, around some back turning. In Dalston they have split the market up into three different parts; they1 have sent a few over here, a few across here, and a few right back here, and they have split the market up into three different parts, so if the public want the goods they have to go to three different markets in one morning to buy what they want to buy. 7975. Before they stood in the principal street?— Before, they stood in the main turning. 7976. Is there any rule amongst costermongers not to compete unduly with shops—not to sell linen drapery, for instance, outside a linen draper's shop, or china out- side a china shop?—'That is only commonsense. No Englishman would have the cheek to pitch outside a china shop with the same goods as the man was selling inside the shop. 7977. That would not be a proper way of conducting business?—Certainly not. I shouldn't think so. We have never had a case like that. They would go further afield. 7978. (Chairman.) Is this system of the one person selecting the goods, and then sending out another to sell, a profitable way of carrying on business?—There is no time lost. 7979. I gather from that that it is a profitable way ?— Yes. 7980. Why do not English costermongers pursue that system ?—>1 could not give you an answer to that ques- tion. This is the principle of it, that they nearly all work on their own capital. 7981. They do not make so much profit as the people who do it, apparently ?—It is not that. These foreigners seem to have the stuff consigned to them from some place where you cannot buy. In the instance I gave you, a man gets all the stuff from Germany consigned to him, and he will not allow Englishmen to buy a piece of it. If they went there he Would not serve them. 7982. Don't you think you could get it from Germany yourself ?—These people make it a practice to go there every now and again. It is all the " seconds" they buy ; all the thrown out bits. They have got friends there, and they get it all consigned to them. Some of our biggest people have tried to get it, and they cannot; they have no chance. If they were to offer a bit more for it, these people would offer more. 7983. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is the action of the local authorities due to the complaints of the shopkeepers ? —The shopkeepers write to the local authorities, and then they complain. 7984. The action tf tHe local authorities is due to the complaints of the shopkeepers?—Yes. 7985. And are the complaints of the shopkeepers directed mainly against the alien costermongers ?—Yes. They tell you plainly that tney do not object to th® English, and they would not object if the streets were carried on the same as they used to be, but the streets have got so crowded, and so full of these foreign costers, that they find it impossible to get on without clearing them away. They cannot clear them away without clearing us away as well, and so they have to clear away the lot. 7986. (Chairman.) It does not pay you to go into a neighbourhood where there is not a thoroughfare. You want a lot of people to see your goods. Will not the people follow your market? If people know they can get these cheap goods in a little thoroughfare, will not the public go to that thoroughfare ?—It seems as if they do not, for in all the places they have turned them into they have all gone wrong in them. They do not seem to get any trade. Mr. Robert Shakpe, Jt. Sharpe. - 7987, (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you live at 5, Benn Street, South Hackney?—Yes. 7988. And are you a costermonger?—Yes. I am termed a costermonger, but a " street vendor " would be more appropriate, because I don't confine myself to ..el-ling perishable goods. My goods are principally haberdashery and fine art jewellery. 7989. You have noticed this great influx from abroad about which we have been talking?—Yes. 7990. What is the effect of it on your trade ?^—A very bad effect. 7991. Does it press hardly upon you ?—Yes, you cannot earn the money ; you cannot get a living ; you cannot pay your way ; you are in debt all round ; that is, if you want to be honest. Of course, plenty of people can live by doing lots of different things, such as getting furniture on the hire system, etc., but if you want to keep honest you can't do it—not the way they are working now. 7992. Is there a strong feeling about this among your people—a bitter feeling?—Very strong. I might say as late as Saturday night I went into market close against my home, where I usually work, and it was full up. One foreigner had three barrows, the market side, and I had to pitch on the other side, because I did not happen to get there soon enough. That was my fault, I suppose, but the difference it makes is tiled; and Examined. about 15s. or £1 in my Saturday's work. If I had the right side, there would be plenty of room without these people overcrowding it, and I should have done my usual work, and instead of taking 3s. or 4s., I should have taken £1. It does make a very great difference. 7993. You are crowded out of the place that you used to have to yourself by these people from abroad?— Quite right. 7994. You consider that a great hardship I—It is. I do not see why we should be turned out of our own country. We cannot go away from it. We were born here, and why should we not live here? We only want to live—that is all. I shouldn't care myself what they did, if they were to act properly. If they were to compete in a proper manner, I should not care for any man who sells in the market, but they don't compete properly. They sell cheaper, and they live very odd. If it keeps on, we shall be brought to the same con- dition that they are in, and it is not fit for a dog to live in the way they live. 7995. They live under worse conditions than th* Englishman can live, and they compete against you in your trade ?—Yes. 7096, You have heard the other witnesses to-day?— X 6S. 7997. You confirm and agree with what they say generally?—Yes. JMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 269 7088. Your evidence would be to the same effect as :the evidence they have given?—Just about the same. 7999. I do not think I need trouble you to go over vthe same ground) that they have covered ?—It is the same ithing ; in fact, I think they have under-drawn the pic- ture, instead of over-drawing it. I think they could .make it a great deal worse if they had gone through .it like I have. I am in the habit of working all mar- kets all over London. I am not continually in one market. 8000. {Chairman,) Where is your particular pitch! -—All over London. 8001. (Major Evans-Gordon,) Are you principally in .any one place?—I work Clapton, Hackney, Poplar, -Commercial Road, Old Ford, Green Street, Bethnal *Green Road, Shoreditch—all markets. 8002. And you say that this influx of aliens and com- petition with your trade from abroad is increasing, • And. is felt in all those districts?—Yes, very much, es- pecially to a man who travels about the different mar- kets ; he feels it more than a man who is stationary. 8003. Where formerly you could get a good living at this business, you find great difficulty in getting a liv- ing now ?—Yes, it has been going bad for 15 years. I used to make a decent living, and keep my wife and family respectable, but this last 15 years it has been ■ getting worse every week, and it continues to get worse —that is the worst of it. 8004. More and more of these people crowd in?— " Yes, more and more. 8005. (Chairman.) Is this invasion of foreigners different in degree in these different localities you men- tion, or do you find it is pretty nearly the same all 'Over these localities ?—It is mostly the East End—not f so much the West End. 8006. With the exception of Hackney, you have mentioned nothing about the East End places you go to. ^ In these East End places you go to is the in- vasion the same in extent and degree, or different?— . Just the same. In fact, the more you get East, the more_ crowded it is. If you get more towards the il j suc^ as ^aPel Street, Islington, it is not quite -so bad there, But as you go more East, it is dreadful. 8007. Stepney and Whitechapel ?—Yes. 8008. Would they be about the worst ?—Yes, they - would be about the worst. Old Ford is very bad. 8099. That is Bow?—It lies Bow way off the main road. It is a big market. It is between Bow and Hackney. 8010. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Bo the foreign coster- mongers drive the English costermongers out of the x trade ?—Yes, they do. 8011. Is it or is it not the fact that there has been an increase in the membership of the Costermongers' lUnion?—An increase. 8012. In the number of costermongers £—Yes. -Mr, 8013. English costermongers?—English coster- R-Shmpe* mongers. When they see that they are so hardly don6 21 JiQy1902, by by the local authorities, they think it would be . & \ , [ beneficial to them to. combine together, so as to get the right to live. They only want to live—that is all, 8014. Although there is an increase in the member- ship of the Costermongers' Union, it is due to th,e, fact of the hard times that the costers are having?—Yes. 8015. Just as in any other trade,, before a strike or anything of that kind, the number of members will increase?—Yes. , . 8016. Although there has been an increase in the membership of the Costermongers' Union, would you say there are more costermongers than before putside the union ? Have the English; costermongers in- creased or diminished ?—They have increased. Their sons are getting big. In fact, I have four sons, and they are all men nearly. How do you reconcile that with their being driven out of the trade by the alien costermongers, and there are more of them ? 8017. (Chairman.) There would be still more if some were not driven out?—As London grows there would be more costermongers, because all the suburbs require costermongers in them. London is growing, and Re- quires more, but in spite of that we have not room enough. 8018. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say the difficul- ties in the way of your earning a living are very much increased on account of this alien influx ?—Yes, that is so. 8019. In the case of the Kingsland Road, I have heard it stated that an individual English coster- monger takes three or four 'barrows there, so as to.> pre- vent another Englishman from plying his trade. Did you ever hear of that ?—Never—not an Englishman. 8020. You never heard of it anyway ?—No, never. - 8021. (Chairman.) Have these aliens any society?— 1 believe they have what they call the Whitechapel, but that only consists of their own people. 8022. Is that a costermongers' society or for their other trades ?—Only for costermongers. We had an invitation to our society last Thursday night to 26 to a demonstration for the Jewish Incurables. We were invited to go with our banner on some date in next month, for the benefit of the Jewish Incurables. But that is rather selfish. They don't come anywhere near our hospital demonstrations, but we have been to a lot > 01 theirs. . 8023. You do not object in any way to the Coster- " mongers Union in Whitechapel ?—Certainly not. 8024. You have nothing at all against them?—No, 8025. They protect their trade interests, and do the best they can for the people there?—Yes. TWENTY-FIRST DAY. Thursday, 'Ikth July, 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttleton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. The Right Hon. Lord James op Hereford (Chairman). Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Vallance, Esq. ., 8026. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are a barrister-at- law ?—Yes. _ 80?7* You are a member of the Mansion House 'Housing Council, and editor of the " Saturday Review " ? .8028. How long have you been a member of the Mr. Harold Hodge, called ; and Examined. Mr. . Mansion House Housing Council ?—In 1887 I was over in Bethnal Green domg general, what I may call social. 24 JuIy ^ work, m connection with the Oxford House and the local -1 branch of the Mansion House Council of the Dwellings of the Poor. The secretary had gone, and I was asked to take it up. I did, and from that time until now I ! have acted on that branch of the Mansion House I270 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : -MP. Council, and also on the central body as either secretary ff, Hodge, or chairman. The committee has always met fort- ... nightly, but for a great many years, I should think 4 Ju.y 190:?. seven years, I had to'go over to the East End once a week, very often more, and the last few years since 1 , have been chairman I have gone over once a fortnight. The committee consists of the residents at the house, the Oxford men living there, and local men, working men, and others, so I could not help being very con- stantly in touch in this way with a great deal of local opinion, and especially the opinion of the Oxford men, who, from time to time, live in the district, and so this matter has come before ma. I thought it possible in these circumstances I might be of some use here. 8029. Perhaps the Committee would like to know just briefly about the organisation of Oxford House What is the Oxford House Settlement?—The Oxford House is an University settlement, confined mainly to Oxford men, not in its actual nature, because Cambridge men go there sometimes. It does all sorts of social work. Of course it is on a strictly religious foundation. It is a Church foundation, and does all sorts of social work, clubs and things of that kind. The Oxford House is a centre for several large' organisations, like the Children's Holiday Fund and the Charity Organisa- tion Society; and this Mansion House Council on the Dwellings of the Poor is a London institution (it is going to extend its sphere of operations shortly) that lias a branch there. I am now chairman of both the Bethnal Green and Mile End Committees. 8030. That organisation brings you in touch with ail the social problems in the East End of London?—Yes, practically all, I think. 8031. Especially with regard to the housing of the working classes ?—That is my own department on the Mansion House Council. That is the work I really at- tended to. I have not done any other work there gene- rally. 8032. I should like you to give some of your impres- sion, after all this long experience you have had in that part of London, with regard to this question into which we are inquiring—the effect of the alien immigra- tion upon that district, and upon your own mind?— Would you allow me first just to say something as to the mode in which this committee works, because that will show the Commission the sort of evidence that comes before me. It works in this way: Anybody in the district can report to us a case' of a house having a sanitary nuisance in the strict legal sense of the term ; also we, ourselves, make inspections on our own account in the neighbourhood1, and having ascertained that a house really has a nuisance strictly in the house, we then report it to the local authorities in the proper way, and follow it up until the nuisance is abated. Sometimes we take action in court ourselves. We did the other d'ay. I should think every week some 40 cases come before me. 8033. Forty cases of insanitary nuisance ?—Yes. I do not pledge myself to the actual number, but I should think somewhere about 40 cases come before me. Then on the question of the alien aspect of that matter I can certainly say this, that of the cases that come before us, where you could describe a house as gene- rally insanitary, certainly a large proportion are in- habited by aliens, and a considerable proportion are also owned by aliens. My own judgment, from what I have seen of the matter, would be that in the larger number of these cases, the insanitary condition of the house is not due so much to the habit or the carelessness of the occupier as to the carelessness, or, rather, I ought to use a stronger term, the remissness of the owner, the land- lord. But I could not suggest that the occupiers are free from blame, because there are a great many in- stances I have come across where we have examined into them, and our own inspectors have gone there. There is certainly evidence of a want of regard for cleanliness and sanitation generally, and I think, on the whole, in fact, I may say distinctly there is more disregard on the part of the aliens than in the ordinary English in-' v habitant. But with the owner the case is stronger. I have no hesitation in saying that the alien owner in the parts I know in Bethnal Green and Mile End is exceptionally bad in this respect. It seems to me to - be part of his policy to spend as little as he can on the house. 8034. To spend as little as he can in repairs, and exact as high quit. I have found that over and over again, and owing of course to the pressure, largely through the influx of aliens, the alien owner is able to get higher rents—rents that the English population do ■< not pay. 8038. Because when you get to a certain limit they will nod, or cannot?—Whether it is will not or cannot I need not go into, but they do not pay it, and the conse- quence is that they leave the house, and that displace- ment is what they feel more than anything, and if there is one thing which will create bad feeling it is anything that causes them to leave their houses. Of course the reason why they feel so hardly about it is obviously because the difficulty of getting house room is very great indeed. I do not think the reports that have been in the Press and elsewhere as to the difficulty of getting house room in the East End (I know Bethnal Green best) are at all exaggerated. I have come across a great many - cases of people who have been days and could not find house room, and for a man with a family of several children it is extremely difficult. So I think that makes, it sufficiently intelligible why the English population, feels so very strongly and bitterly on the point. 8039. You would be in agreement with Mr. H. S. • Lewis, who, of course, is not prejudiced against the aliens in any way, in saying—I can quote him almost, exactly—the main cause of the bitterness of feeling, again,st the alien immigrants remains to be stated—that is. the bitterness of feeling caused by the English popu- lation being turned out of their homes by the incoming foreigner ?—I do not think there is the slightest.doubt upon the point. 8035. Then with regard to Bethnal Green, you have 8040. That you would regard, and any reasonable mamMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 271 must regard, this question of people who have been Jiving in these East End places for years, and have their homes there, and are attached to their homes, as c other people are, as a great and unquestionable hardship that they should be turned out in this way—displaced by a foreign population ?—It seems so to me, and even if one did not describe it as -a hardship, it is a very .great misfortune for them. I qualify it in that way because whether it is a hardship is perhaps a matter -of opinion. £(041. Would you tell us something about the defici- ency that you find in the aliens in what working men .call the society spirit ?—-With regard to that, I mention it because I wish to mention the points with regard to the aliens, or perhaps against the aliens, that from my -own experience seem to me sound and to hold water, and the charges that from my own experience I think true. I certainly have; noticed that all the English population ;say of them that they do not, as it were, make common .ground with the working people of the district on what they call working class questions. Some of the aliens, of course, do join unions, but not a very large proportion * of them. I do not wish to dogmatise, but from my own experience the larger proportion of them do not. It is then said by . Englishmen (I cannot say, •of course, as to how far it is true, but it may be worth while to give the impression) that the aliens, after they have joined trade unions, have not observed the rules of the unions. That is what, of course, a working man calls •a serious lack of what they call the society spirit, but the matter which is much more serious, at least, which I know much more about, is on the question of rent. By« accepting and taking practically any rent the land- lord chooses to ask, they do have the effect of handi- capping the English occupier and sending up the standard of rent, which, of course, is a very serious thing for the people of the locality. Also I think that it is a very unforwnate thing for the aliens themselves, "because in the end it means that they have to pay more in rent. If they did not take such high rents, though they might be much longer in obtaining a lodg- ment in the end, I think they would gain by it. Of 'Course, it is obvious from what I say that I think the Tents are too high. It may be a matter of opinion. 8042. Have you come across the agitation that I have in the East, End with regard to fair rent courts?—I have heard of it. I have come across it distinctly. I have known several who have spoken in favour of it. 8043. There is a strong feeling?—Yes. 8044. And a growing feeling that something on the same basis as Irish legislation with regard to land should be adopted in the East End of London with regard to houses?—Of course, it has been proposed seriously by several people who are supposed to speak for the East End. I know that it is Mr. Stedman's pro- gramme—he wants it done. I myself have been always opposed to that, because I do not think it could work. . I think the complications in the East End are such that rent courts could not work. 8045. A number of these advanced people in the East End of London are always speaking on this subject of the establishment of fair rent courts ?—Yes. 8046. Of a rent court to reduce these abnormal rents_ to regulate rents ?—I do not think it is at all strength- ened by the fact that there should be an agitation for :;rent courts, because from my own experience the rent question is a very serious one. I think everybody who went into the matter would admit that the ordinary East . End working man pays a larger proportion of his earn- -ings in rent than is rights—when I say right, I mean best in the interest of the community. 8047. Now with regard to overcrowding, I understand from what we have heard here and from what I know myself, that this overcrowding among the alien popu- lation is very great. Do you say that that is an out- . come of the high rents?—Certainly not. 8048. High rents do not lead to overcrowding?_I think not. Of course, that is a matter that is con- stantly discussed. ^ It is the firm view of nine out of ten -of the East End inhabitants themselves that the over- crowding is caused by high rents. It is quite natural that they should think so, , but my own observation is, rand I have tried to think the matter out, that it is. the •converse which is tru-e, that the, overcrowding is the eeause of the high rents. •"'8049: (Chairman.)-IS there are no vacant houses to speak of I do not see how the rent can touch the over- Mr. crowding?—That is the point. So far as my own ob- .//. Hodge. servation goes, and I have special means of observing —— this, the number of vacant houses in the East End, and ^ 1902 certainly Betihnal 'Green, as extremely few'. I have T come across a certain number, but they have in every case been houses which have been condemned as insani- tary, and then, unfortunately, have been left closed for months. Of course, that is a very serious evil, because it is occupying space without providing house room, but that is the only case I have come across of houses being condemned. As there is not vacant space, it does , seem to me to settle the question that high rents cannot be the cause of overcrowding, but that over- crowding is the cause of high rents seems, to me to be proved. Of course, you can get more rent from six people earning wages than you can from two', and the landlords know it. One of the serious charges against ■ the alien landlord is that he encourages overcrowding. I do not think there is the slightest doubt about that. I do not pretend he is the only landlord who does. I do not maintain there are no English landlords who do it. There are English landlords who encourage over- crowding, too. I have come across them, but from my ; experience the proportion of English landlords who en- courage overcrowding is not so large as the proportion of those alien landlords who do. In fact, as far as I can judge, all the alien landlords do. They could not get the rents without it. 8050. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is a regular gamble in house property down there?—There is quite. 8051. If I as a working man occupy a housq with, four rooms in it and I occupy three of those rooms and let one, .and my rent is raised 5s. a week, as frequently happens, would not the tendency be, and is not the actual tendency that I should let off another room for 5s. a week, in order to recover the difference, and so crowd my family into two rooms instead of three ?— _ It is true that would happen, but I do not think that would be any evidence that the high rent caused the . overcrowding, because the truth is, the fact that you would take in somebody more shows you know you cannot pay the high rent without having more people. So it is true that the larger number of people is the cause of the high, rent, because if you could not get the extra, person, and if you cannot pay the rent with- out taking in an extra person, you would go, which would mean if everybody did the same thing the rent would not be charged. So it is the number of people in the house which causes the high rent. One assumes the landlord gets all the rent he can. 8052. That I am afraid is a perfectly sound assump- tion ?—It is so far as my experience goes. 8053. You would say that this overcrowding and dis- placement of the English population are the most seri- ous aspects of the alien question?—My own belief is that it is by far the most serious. I do not wish to suggest that there is no case on the question of com- petition and wages, and so on, but on that point I do not propose to speak, because I have not any particular means of information—no more than other people. 8054. The housing accommodation in any case is de- ficient for the normal population ?—I do not think that can be wrong. There is not at present the detailed in- formation on the point, so far as I can gather, to be able strictly or legally to prove it, but as far as my observation can go, and the evidence that one has, it seems to me beyond doubt practically proved that abso- lutely there is not the accommodation for the people. You might distribute the people anywhere you liked, if you had absolute power of re-arranging the people you would still have serious overcrowding. I believe there is an absolute deficiency of house room. 8055. You have got, without entering into figures, very considerably more people to accommodate than you have places to put them in ?—Yes, taking, of course, a certain standard of accommodation. 8056. The legal standard. The cubic space by law is not a. very exacting one?—You mean the 400 to 200 cubic feet. 8057. Yes ? That is the standard I always have in mind. If you take the other standard so as to be in- jurious to health it would work out about the same way. It would be true if you take that standard there would not be enough house room for the people. 8058. So that without this exceptional increase and272 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : v accretion caused by the alien influx the housing pro- M. Hodge. blem is a difficult one—even without that?—Very. I ^ ——- think myself there would be some serious overcrowding 24 July 1902. in the East End if there were no aliens. 8059. But the fact of these people pouring in from abroad, as they do increasingly, aggravates the problem to a very great extent ?—Yery much. 8060. Then/ the problem is more than ever enhauced when the people who come in are by nature and habit, and from the country they come from, prone to over- crowding ?—It is enhanced by that. ,8061. They have been called by, I think, Colonel Goldsmid, who was talking about this overcrowding question, the ready-made slum dwellers. Would you agree with that?—It is not a description I should use of them, myself. 8062. What I am trying to get is that these people come from parts of the world where we are told they are living under very crowded and deplorable conditions, and therefore coming into this country they do not mind it ?—Naturally. 8063. Perhaps the conditions they come to here are better than those they come from, consequently what we consider very terrible overcrowding is to them per- haps a better condition of things than what they have come from ?—That is possible. 8064. That increases our difficulty here ?—I think all I can say on the point from my own experience is that it is certainly true that the aliens have not the smallest objection to overcrowding, and they do overcrowd most seriously. In having no objection^ I should like to say this—no matter what the effect is, they are not really very different from the ordinary English popula- tion. s The English population, I am sorry to say, I cannot find have any antipathy to overcrowding, but they certainly have more than the aliens. I have really had very good opportunities of judging of this, and I should say that the ordinary English inhabitant of the East End has not got at all strong feelings about over- crowding ; but, on the other hand, his repugnance is distinctly more than the alien—certainly more. Of course, you can see from that that I think the standard as regards overcrowding from all points of view is ex- tremely low. I think the ordinary occupier does not much mind it, and the ordinary landlord does not mind it, and the alien landlord distinctly encourages it. 8065. {Lord Rothschild.) The ordinary man you are talking df ?—I am talking of the whole population. 8066. {Chairman.) The metropolis only, or rural districts only?—I cannot speak as to rural districts. I have heard, but I cannot speak myself. 8067. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I deduce from that, though the standard of our own people is not at all a high one, the incomers have -a lower standard still?— Distinctly. 8068. And they play the game of the worst sort of landlord by taking their houses at rents that English occupiers will not or cannot pay ?—Yes, and that pro- duces, as is natural, a feeling of bitterness. 8069. And then overcrowd in order to pay the rent? —Yes, that is the only way they could pay the rent. 8070. Then you would say generally, looking at it from the housing point of view, and rent point of view, that the one fact that alien immigration necessarily aggravates the most immediately difficult of London social problems—that is, of overcrowding—is a sufficient reason for taking some measure to regulate the immigra- tion?—-It seems so to me. The overcrowding question is to me so important, and so extremely difficult to deal with, that one cannot afford to overlook any element in the matter, or to leave untaken any step that might possibly be taken to facilitate a remedy. 8071. There is no counterbalancing gain in your opinion?—I think not. I am aware of what good qualities the aliens have, and they certainly have some, but I do not think the gain nearly counterbalances the evil effect of the overcrowding. . 8072. We have been told a great deal, and we have discussed it very freely here, -about the possibility of mitigating this evil or entirely removing it, as some witnesses have told us, by what is called the stern en- forcement of the existing sanitary laws, the Public Health Act, and the bye-laws. What is your view about that ?—I do not think in the present condition of East London the enforcement of the existing law can seri- ously affect the overcrowding problem at all. I think, as a matter of fact, it would be soon found to be utterl) impossible. I. know many who have given attention tc it do take that view. I saw Dr. Shirley Murphy had said that here. I have often discussed the matter with him ; but if it is true that the overcrowding is caused mainly by the actual deficiency in house room it is per- fectly clear you cannot remedy it by simply turning people out. If people crowd houses, and there is not room for them not to crowd, the only remedy can be to proficTe more room, and, as I believe that to be the actual case in East London', I cannot see how rigorous enforcement of repressive provisions can possibly act as a remedy. 8073. The problem is the number of people on the one hand and the number of houses on the other?—Yes. 8074. And stirring the people about and chasing them round in these neighbourhoods does not affect that problem in any shape or form?—No, I do not think it does at all. At any rate, it cannot be a remedy. It is quite true if by main force you choose to turn out the surplus population above the proper space provided for the time being you would not have overcrowding, but that is no remedy, because you must follow up these people and see where they go. I have no doubt you would find they have gone elsewhere and overcrowded, and if you chase them so far until they had got out into districts where there is less pressure you would either find that there was no house room for them there at( present, or that as a fact you could not keep them there, because either their work would compel them to be elsewhere or they have such a strong feeling and wisl* to live in London that by one means or another they would get back. The enforcement of the law would break down. I believe it would be simply impossible. I think myself f if ever we reach the state that the arrears in house room are overtaken and enough additional room is provided for the existing population, and including the estimated figures for, say, 10 or 15 years, I think you could apply the present repressive laws or clauses ancj they could work, but it would want very careful doing, and much stricter administration than anything we have seen yet. 8075. We have been told, I think, by Dr. Shirley Murphy, that if you set to work really all over London and administered the existing law very stringently, that the thing would settle itself. That was the phrase used f •—Yes. 8076. I was unable to see, and we have not been given, any solution of that point, how the thing is to settle . itself ?—I know that is Dr. Shirley Murphy's view, but ] have always wondered at the basis on which he goes. 1 suppose he assumes there is for the whole population of London, taking the administrative county, house room enough, and if you could re-distribute the people they could be made to settle down so as not to be over- crowded. Of course, it is very difficult to test that, because, so far as I know, there are not the available data and not the information to prove what is the house room of London and what is the house room required, but so far as I am able to ascertain I think Dr. Shirley Murphy's inference is wrong. I do not believe any amount of distribution within London would prevent considerable overcrowding. 8077. Surely nobody has hitherto pointed out any part of London, or any part in the neighbourhood of London, where there is a surplus of house accommodation ?—I do not myself know of one. I am not able to say there is not, but certainly it has never been shown to me. Of course, there would be parishes or districts where yom would find a surplus for the existing population of 400 to 200 cubic feet, because there are a great many houses, of course, which provide far more room for the in- habitants than that; but then they will never be avail- able for working-class people, so that does not help the question. I should like to say something with regard to what I know is really in the minds of those who take Dr. Shirley Murphy's view—that is, they think the people can be got to live outside; and therefore it isi put that the proper solution of overcrowding is cheap transit. That assumes first of all that these people's work would enable them to live outside, and secondly it assumes if they had the facility to go they would. I do not. think- either is true at present. I have been very much struck with the predilection of the majority of the people to live in London—right inside.. There is always a certain number would go out, but I Have known many cases of those who have gone out and crome back. They have had the facility, but they takee points* like this:MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 273 ben your work begins early in the morning, say 8) lock or 7 o'clock, you have to catch a train the first ag in the morning right through the winter, and they 1 it is a very serious strain, and they often have to without 'any breakfast, and then they have to come 3k. It does not seem to me any use -to assume that iple will do what they will not do. It does not follow 3ause you provide the house to go in that people will 8078. Have you come across this, because it has been r experience P You mention people who have gone out .d come back again, and I have met many instances of at myself. They also feel another thing, namely, that ; dng out in these newly constructed places is mournful, id dull, and sad, and they miss the light and life and : ovement of the town which they have been accustomed P—Some do, certainly, but the strongest point they ! .ve always insisted upon has been the strain of having come in the morning a long way by train during the ; Id and dark mornings of the winter. 8079. Reverting to that point of the house accommoda- on; far from anybody suggesting that there is any part 1 London, or any part of the outlying districts, where j ^immense surplus population of the East End could ! 3 tf nsf erred, is it not the case that the County -Council J buP ling great towns out in places like Tottenham, and : > on t—Yes, they are building. 8080. To accommodate many thousands of people ?— Yes. 9081. Tens of thousands of people, as I understand?— Yes. 8082. What I want to get from you is with regard ten his immediate question before us of the alien immigrat- ion ; what hope, in your opinion, is there of the supply >f houses ever keeping step with the demand so long as we are tapping an inexhaustible reservoir of poor people in Eastern Europe?—I think the. hope is extremely slender—in fact, almost none. 8083. Of cpazs.e,. we have been told here by great CZ6horities that we are tfuly at the inception of this lovement from Eastern Europe, and that other doors re being shut tighter and tighter, and consequently the ,ow to these shores will be, in .all human probability, onstantly increasing ?—That, of course) makes the out- look much more serious, 8084. You would regard that as a very, very serious natter ?—Yes, extremely serious. 8085. And one deserving of very close and careful at- tention P—Most certainly. 8086. You say the problem with regard to houses will ever be grappled with until the deficiency, according to le standard of the Local Government bye4aws, for all ondon has been approximately ascertained ?—It seems » me to be so, and it has always seemed to me in this matter a great misfortune that,, as far as I know, we) have not the data on which to ascertain what is the) state of things. We all have to speak somewhat in the( air. If we could find out what was the available house room in London and compared that with the* population that the house room has to contain, we could then know what the deficiency, or the surplus, or the exact state of things was. Of course, we should have to make allow- ances for those houses which will not ever be available for working people, but having made that allowance we should know how we stand, and if we knew what the deficiency was we could begin to build on a plan. 8087. Then you would suggest that there should be something in the nature of an annual 'budget of house, accommodation and of the people we 'have to accom- modate ?—I think it would be extremely useful. 8088. Taking all things into consideration, that is jo say, the natural increase in the population already resident here, and the influx from the country which joes on from the great towns ?—Yes, 8089. And the destruction of house property owing bo manufactories, school boards, railways, and so forth ?—Yes. 8090. And the influx from abroad?—Yes. I think it would be extremely useful, 8091. The last is now a very considerable item?— Very. 8092. All those things should be taken into con- sideration and budgetted for, so that we should know the nature of the problem which we have to face?— Yes. 6144. 8093. Which we do not know at present at all ?— Mr. That is so. Hodge, 8094. I see you say in your note that this building 24 July 190! for the people in your opinion can only be done by a .......?■■ ■■ single scheme?—So it seems to me. I know, of course, that a great many would not agree, but the cardinal point of the situation, I think, is that what we have to do is not so much a question of keeping pace with the increase, or not any more a question of keeping pace with the increase, than of dealing, with the question of arrears. I think if we had the figures I have been speaking of we should see that we had reached a very serious condition of arrears in house room, and until we have overtaken the arrears and supplied the build- ings required to bring up the ^accommodation to the population, I do not see that there can be any serious improvement in the overcrowding question. It seems to me hardly possible to fill up the deficiency when all that is done is to build on a haphazard plan, puttihg down a block of buildings in one place, and another block in another place, when it is not done to any common end. We do not know how much we want to supply, and we do not know where, and we have different authorities doing it who may very likely work at cross purposes. 8095. Your point would be that the present mode, at. all events, of haphazard sporadic building to no common end is expensive and ineffectual ?—Yes. 8096. But in this budget that you suggest of the number of people that you have to accommodate, is it not a fact, that we have got one element which you cannot calculate at all, and that is the number of people that are coming in from abroad?—That cer- tainly complicates the matter very much, but I suppose you- could make some sort of actuarial calculation. You could get an idea, but it would be very loose. 8097. The estimate that we might make on on average extending over a certain number of years might be entirely upset at any moment by some turn of the screw in Russia—a bad harvest, political movements, such as we have seen in Roumania, or the closing of the door tighter in America. All those elements are at work to make the possibility of calculating the number of people we have got to accommodate from abroad a very difficult one indeed?—Very. 8098. What I want to put to you is, with your ex- perience in the Ea£t End, in your opinion have w anv right with regard to the welfare of our own people- to go on attempting to accommodate unlimited num- bers of poor people from foreign countries?—I think it is a mistake. 8099. So long as we are in arrears with regard to our own people we have not got a right to take upon our- selves the burdens of other countries ?—I do not know- that I would quite put it in the form of saying we had not a right. 8100. Perhaps I do not use the right expression ?— I think in the interest of the whole community, espe- cially in regard to the overcrowding matter, that it is essential to do something to regulate and check the inflow of these aliens. 8101. Then, of course, another remedy presents itself, inasmuch as we know very well the ground in East London could accommodate a great many more- people than is accommodated on it?—Yes, far. 8102. Acres and acres of streets there consist of two- storied houses?—Yes, 8103. Yery small two-storied houses?—Yes. 8104. Upon which larger houses might stand ?—Yes. 8105. Consequently accommodating a great many more people ?—Yes. I regard that as a vital fact in. the matter, If we knew how much house room was required I think we should then see that the deficiency could be supplied by rebuilding very large parts of London, because I know myself in Bethnal Green, for instance, you will see, I believe it would be, miles of streets, but certainly acres, of these old two-storied houses, which carry a very much smaller population than the ground would carry without any overcrowding at all; but, of course, those streets now-' are never touched, because they are not so insanitary as to come within the provisions of the Housing Act, so that you could pull them down as insanitary areas. There- fore, they are not touched. Nearly all the building that has been done in London has been done on areas that have been cleared as insanitary, but you could M M274 KOYAL COMMISSION ON. ALIEN IMMIGRATION : l/r,. not clear these as .insanitary, because they are not in- II. Body*, sanitary enough for that, although they are, perhaps, — bad enough. g4 July 1902, C0urg0; there would be difficulty in deal- ' " ing with thewc houses on any large scale, because they are in various ownership, and you cannot get control? —They would have to be bought up compulsorily, and I do not see any other way of doing it myself, 8107. When the leases fall in they are simply sub' lot Again. A few repairs are done, and they are let again for 7, 14, and 21 years?-—Yes, I think what also aggravates tho matter is the great many cases of moral intermediate leases. Very often there are several parties between the ground- owner and the occupier. Sometimes there are five or six, 8108. Apart from these considerations of housing and overcrowding, do you think there is a case for restricting alien immigration on any other ground?— It seems to me there must be a case, at any rate, whether a good case or a bad one,, in this way, that what is happening is that in considerable areas the English population is boinjj replaced by an alien popu- lation, Wo have to consider whether on the whole it i'm a gain to tho community that this should take, place. One must remember the nature of the people who como in, 1h$y are people who crowd in towns. I am afraid it is obviously true the bulk of working people do not like living in the country. They tend to como to towns, and especially London, and there- fore it must bo a grave question whether it is desirable to import a great many more who have the same ten- dency to aggravate what evorybody, I think, regards as a serious social featuro of the present day. If these people had tended to take to the country and take to agriculture, I think it might bo a very different ques- tion to what it is now. 8109. Your view would bo that veTy great counter- balancing advantages would have to be shown before we should continue to undertake the providing of a homo and a country for unlimited numbers of foreign people from abroad?—— 8110. (Chairman,) No, I understand the witness is discriminating between tho country and towns?—Yes. 8111. {Major Hc-ans-Gordon.) I should like to get your answer, however, to that other question. I mean talking from a national point of view, and from a general point of view, because wo shall be able to show that this is not a thing which is at all confined to 'London, and it is spreading to many other parts of the country. I want to know your view, whether from a national point o* view it is on advantage or a disad- vantage, and whether great counter-balancing ad- vantages would have to be shown before we should con- tinue to go on as wo are going on now?—From the national point of view it seems to me it must be an ex- tremely serious thing to allow anything to go on which tonds to aggravate the overcrowding in large towns, but I myself ran only speak as to London. 8112. Hna it^ ever struck you that there are! great organisation* in existence and largo sums of money #pent annually in sending our own people, and the best of our own jn'ople, abroad to colonies?-—Certainly there are large sums spent on it> Whether they are the best- I cannot say, but certainly some very good specimens do go abroad. 8113. They are selected, at all events?—Yes, they are certa inly. PI 14. That is dono with two objects, namely, for the benefit of the colonies ami also to relieve the pressure of population here?—Yes, As far as I have observed I think tho idea generally is to relieve the pressure here, 61J5. And provide people with a means of living or making an existence which they have not got in their own country?—Yes. U really comes to this largely, thaf» these people,who take an interest in emigration see that there is a surplus population here for the house room, and also they would say, I suppose, as far as tho economic condition of the country is concerned, and therefore if they help to get rid of' the surplus popula- tion it a good thing; but then tho question comes whether it- is good to get rid of a surplus of Englishmen, and admit instead n surplus of foreigners. 8116. Who, according to you, can exist, and do exist, on a lower standard than the poorest of our own people? think they do. 8117, You jvto iloliberntely replacing your own people by foreigners, however desirable, from abroad ?—That 13 certainly happening. We are allowing it to happen. , 8118. You and I can see under our own observation in the East End of London, at all events, which we im- mediately notice, that it is constantly being turned into an absolutely foreign colony?—-In certain parts, with- out doubt, and I know some of the English inhabitant* feel it very much. It may not be so serious an aspect as.some -we have spoken of, but they feel it from a social point of view. They say: " We are coming now to living in a foreign country." 8119. Then altogether you regard the problem of alien- immigration as a very serious one, and one which we' should do well to consider most carefully ?—I do, 8120. {Lord Bothscliild.) Do I understand you to mean that the advent of a few Russian a.nd Roumanian shoe- makers and tailors is driving 5,000 or 6,000, or 10,000 Cornishmen, who are miners, to the Transvaal, or agri- culturists to Canada? Major Evans-Gordon said we are driving our own people away. Do you think that the Roumanian and Russian tailors and bootmakers coming here is the cause of 5,000 or 6,000 Cornishmen going to the Transvaal next week ?—That is not the way I should put it, of course; but on the other hand I think it is absolutely true that the aliens coming here, who I cannot admit at all are a few, have increased the popn* lation,. which already is too large for the country, and the outcome of that is that the impulse to emigrate is stimulated, so, Indirectly, it is true that the aliens coming in cause certain Englishmen to go out. 8121. I see no connection. Now, I want to put another question, Supposing you say, " We will prevent every alien from coming here," do not you think the Colonies and different countries will say, "We will prevent English emigrants from coming here because they lower the wages," For a hundred years Englishmen, Irishmen, and Scotchmen have gone every* where where wages are high, attracted by the higher wages, and have lowered them. Do not you think if you say, " We will prevent the alien coming into England," your population will be prevented from going abroad? —I do not think so. 8122. I think so ?— isolated scheme like Boundary Street not affecting the total overcrowding problem for London is because it is an isolated scheme. If you carried on this process until you had gone right through the County of London, what would happen then would be that after a hit the people whom you displaced would have to come round again,, or else they would have to leave London, which they will not do. 8163. (Mr. Vallance.) At a conference held some tim© since it was suggested that the local authority should be M M 2. Mm Hi Mbdge. 24 Jiily'l^276 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr, empowered by law under certain circumstances to d&- H; Hodge, clare an area to be a congested area, and thereupon to T 1 1QH9 ^ave Power to frame regulations in regard to any pros- u y pective demolition of houses occupied by the working classes with a view of providing reasonable accommoda^ tion for those who might be displaced. Would you be in agreement with that?—I should be in agreement up to a point, but frankly I do not think, with regard to: building and things of that kind, the local authorities are the best people at present to entrust with powers, because the borough councils, for instance, are indepen- dent of each other, and they are liable to act at cross* purposes and to overlap. My whole idea about building is that it must be done as a single scheme for the whole of London, or otherwise you never take into considers tion the great features which are really vital to the problem, because it is treating what is one problem as several problems. You cannot build in Bethnal Green without affecting South London, because you will drive some people across the water probably, and you must therefore follow it up. 8164. (Chairman.) You would leave it to a central authority?—I would. I think it is only a central autho- rity that can do it. 8165. (Mr. Vallance.) You have given information from time to time to the local authority in regard to nuisances, and you have also given notice in regard ton cases of aggravated overcrowding?—Yes, but we do not do it ourselves directly; we give notice to the central authority, and they do it. 8166. Have you been generally satisfied with the way in which the local authority has dealt with those casesi of overcrowding ?—I have not been generally satisfied in the sense that usually there is nothing done, so far as I have observed, but then I certainly do think, for instance in Bethnal Green, the local authority has every excuse, because I do not think if they did enforce the law and summarily. evict the superfluity of population out of the houses that would be any remedy. The people would be in the street, and in the end they would find a lodg- ment, and it is extremely likely, and more than likely, when they did find a lodgment, where they went the house would be overcrowded. 8167. Assuming that there is an excess of population, in Bethnal Green of some 8,000, a considerable portion of that 8,000 would be children?—Without doubt they would. I suppose you would assume the same propor- tion of children to 8,000 as to the whole population. 8168. My point is, a considerable portion of that number would be children, and those children would require to be educated ?—Yes. 8169. A congested area is rendered more congested ftill by the provision of school accommodation for those children ?—Yes. 8170. So one acts and re-acts upon the other ?—Yes;. but, unfortunately, you cannot help that, only if you did put much more accommodation on the same ground you might meet even that difficulty then. If by building higher you put more accommodation on the same ground, you might be able to save room. Of course, I am aware of. the unpleasantness of these very tall buildings, but it is a choice of evils. 8171. You say the overcrowding is the occasion of the high rents, but you do not admit the high rents cause the overcrowding ?—I do not. 8172. With regard to the displacement of the English population, does the displacement take place in this) way? A house is sub-let and it is overcrowded; the landlord is able to exact high rents in consequence. The adjoining house being occupied by an English working man with his family, he cannot pay that rent for him- self and Ms family, and he must either giv6 up the house or resort to the same means as his neighbour ?—Thai? happens sometimes, without dou^ but not always. 8173. (Mr. Norman.) You spoke just now of the feeling of our own people with regard to this alien immigration. Would you tell the Commis- sion^ a* little more of your experience of that?— I do not know that I have anything to add to what I have said. I can only say I have come across a great many of the English working people whom I have known for years, and who six or seven years ago never expressed any feeling against foreigners, and certainly not against Jews, but now speak with really extreme bitterness. I myself am really very sorry to seo the spirit growing up, because I think it is. getting serious* 1 know the nature of the man I am speaking of—not a man of any natural bitterness of feeling, prejudice against foreigners, but he feels it because it has affected him, that is all. 8174. Such a feeling from the facts you wouild think is likely to increase still further ?—If the inflow does not decrease I am sure the feeling will increase. 8175. And increase, possibly, to a dangerous point?— I think that is quite possible. I do not think myself it is likely to reach a dangerous point unless it is stirred up by some clever person who wants to do it, but I think any person who wanted to do it could do it without trouble. 8176. You think a demagogue of a bad type could do it?-—Yes, I think a clever politician could do it very easily if he thought it a good cry. 8177. If I understand you, you say, with every sym- pathy for the lot of many of these people in their own country, in the interest of our own working people and our own English civilisation, this unrestricted influx should be stopped ?—I think so. 8178. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Overcrowding is your main ob- jection ?—Quite. 8179. You think that overcrowding would continue even if the influx of the alien population were entirely restricted?—Supposing there was no addition to the present housing accommodation, supposing it was not added to, the overcrowding would go on. 8180. The overcrowding is in part caused by the influx from the country districts, and the tendency to come to the towns ?—Yes, partly. 8181. To deal with that effectively,, putting aside the aliens altogether, your proposal is a central authority to deal with the question in London as a whole?—Yes. 81b2. I suppose such an authority could deal not only with the conditions as they exist now, but with thei conditions outside London?—Yes; I look aheiad for 20 years. 8183. And make bye-laws in what I may call Greater London to prevent the reproduction of the same things which exist now ?—Yes, and they could look ahead for 20 years as to what is likely to happen. 8184. Therefore the central authority and the housing question should be in any case dealt with, or a very great evil will remain, entirely apart from alien immi- gration?—Yes, I certainly think so. 8185. Your proposals with regard to, alien immigra- tion are simply for dealing with one element in the subject?—One factor in a very complicated problem; but, it being very complicated, I think you dare not leave any factor out. If you can> touch any aggravating symptom you must stop it. 8186. It seemed to me, I do not know whether I judged rightly, that what you said about the inefficiency of the law, however rigidly operated against overcrowding,, must be considered also with reference to restriction upon incomers?—If, of course, incomers cannot be restricted. I said I do not think: the law could be enforced in the present circumstances, and if you think the influx cannot be restricted, of course there is an end of the matter if it were so. 8187. You put the very potent desire of people to remain in London, and to come to London %—Yes. 8188. Against that desire you say a law, however rigidly enforced, would be inefficient ?—I think it would in England; but I said it would be inefficient in the present condition of affairs. I think if you had made up the arrears in house room, and you knew your pre- sent population was housed rightly, then/1 think it is quite possible for the future you might be able to deal with the inflow—you might keep it within limits. 8189. The scepticism you have about the powers of the law in this matter is as to the powers of the law under the present conditions ?—Yes, in present circum- stances. It is rather more than scepticism. I feel very strongly about it. 8190. I take it from you that, as to the machinery for either controlling or regulating or stopping alien im- migration, you have not gone closely into it ?—No. 8191. You think that is our business and not yours ?— I thought so. 8192. Generally speaking, I suppose you would say that the machinery could be more readily and easily worked checking alien immigration than checkmg immigration from the country into the towns?—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2*7*7 II think so. So Jar as I can. judge it would be easier, and I also think, of course, that the fact of nat the owner knew the tenants would be forthcoming, so that is the cause of the rent. 8221. It .is forthcoming for the one room, but he cannot have the two ?—That is why the , rent is high, because the tenants will be .forthcoming to occupy. If these people would not overcrowd at any cost, the rent would not be put up that height ever. It could not be, because it could not be got. (Chairman,) The Commission are very much obliged to you for your evidence. Adjourned for a short time.278 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN, IMMIGRATION ; - 1 " Mr. JOHN Mulvanby, J.Mvlvaney. c*a t t 8222. (Chairman.) You are the Chief Superintendent 24 Jnly 1902. of the ^ Divigioa ,^YeS; my Lord 8223. I believe you have occupied that position for some six and a half years f—That is so. 8224. Will you tell me what are the boundaries of your division?—From the City boundary through by Norton Folgate, High (Street, Shoreditch, Hackney Road, to as far as Warner Place in Hackney Road, thenc9 by Squirrie's Street and White Street, and across Bethnal Green Road-, and the Whitechapel arid Mile End feoads to the Regent's Canal, and so to the Thames. 8225. Does that include any portion of Stepney ?— The whole of it. , 8226. It includes Stepney, parliamentary and munici- pal?—It includes the parishes of Spitalfields, White- chapel, and parts of Mile End Old and New Towns— practically the greater portion of Stepney borough, ex- cept a bit of Limehouse. , 8227. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is practically Stepney borough, with the addition of bits of Shoreditch, Hackney, and Bethnal Green?—Yes. 8228. (Chairman.) What is the area of your district?— A little over two square miles. 8229. During the six and a half years that you have been superintendent of the district have you observed any change in the character of the population?—Yes, there has been a very large increase of foreigners. 8230. Has there been a loss of the English population, or has that remained, according to your view, stationary ? —No, I should say that they have been displaced. - 8231. And foreigners have taken their place?—That is so. '8232. Has that change that you speak of been more marked in some streets than others?—Yes, in certain parte streets are wholly colonised now, if I may use the word, by foreigners; that were not so seven years ago. 8233. Are there any number of streets that you can say are substantially populated by foreigners ?—Yes. : 8234. About how many?—According to the return I Bave got, I find there are 107 streets in the borough of Stepney that were not populated by foreigners six years ago, but are so to-day» 8235. Wholly or substantially ?—-Wholly. 8236. That means, I suppose, substantially wholly ?— Substantially wholly. 8237. 107 streets?—Yes. • 8238. Six and a half years ago what would be the character of the occupants of those 107 streets ?—Mostly persons of the working classes, dock labourers princi- pally, or a great portion of them, and persons employed about the docks. 8239. And mostly natives as far as you knew?—Yes. t 8240. As to conduct and character, what class of people occupied those houses?—In most instances they were the ordinary working class, persons of good charac- ter, but in some cases not so. I have made a sum- mary, and I find in the 107 streets I have mentioned, speaking generally, 84 streets were occupied by persons of the working classes of good character, 17 of them I should designate bad, and six of them were occupied hy people of doubtful character. 8241. When you say had character, did they consist of disorderly houses?—Yes,-those are the streets that I indicate as bad. , 8242. And criminals you knew to be habitually • living there?—In those streets designated bad they would be more of the criminal class. '8243. I think you said 84 streets would be occupied by reputable people, 17 by people of bad character, and the residue were doubtful ?—-That is so, my Lord. ' ; 8244. Can you fix any time when you would say there was a marked increase in the alien population ?—I think my observation shows there has been a very marked increase during the last two or three years. 8245. More than at the commencement of your period of office as superintendent?—Yes. called; and Examined. 8246. When did this change in these 107 houses take* place, as far as you know ?—I could not say that exactly. The change has occurred during the past seven years. 1 pan speak of some where the change occurred two years ago from my own personal knowledge. 8247. It has been a gradual change?—Yes. 8248. At any rate, you are drawing a distinction be- tween what it was seven years ago, and what it is now? —That is so. 8249. As to the character of these 17 streets where- the houses were occupied by people of bad character, have they left or have they remained ?—They have left. 8250. By what class of persons have they been followed —-aliens, I know, but what class of aliens ?—Tailors and' boot and shoe makers, and such people as that. 6251. You class those as disreputable people ?—No, my Lord. r r ^Si re§ards ^ we caH them bad streets ; there has been a change from British people to aliens, but, as I understand you, the aliens are not of the dis- reputable class that the English people were before ?— xSot in those instances. 8253. In the 107 streets that you say now have changed, will you tell us generally what is the character- ot the aliens who have taken the place of the British subjects?—I should say there is very little difference- between the character of the aliens and the British sub- jects in those cases. They are both people of the work- ing class. 8254. Would the disorderly houses have increased or decreased m these 107 streets ?—The disorderly houses, have decreased in the neighbourhood generally. The action of the London County Council some years ago in, closing the dancing places in Ratcliffe Highway had a very marked effect on the neighbourhood, and accord- ingly that class of house has very much diminished. 8255. Any change that has taken place there you» would not attribute to the change in population, but to the action of the authorities ?—To the action of the* authorities, as far as that goes. 8256. What have you in reserve when you say " as far as that goes" ?—As far as the disorderly houses are- concerned; but in some cases there are still places where thieves resort. 8257. Have they diminished or increased?—They have> diminished. 8258. To what do you attribute that?—I attribute that to the fact that the houses have been taken from^ them; they no longer belong to the old landlords—at all. events, they have gone in many streets that I could name. 8259. Of course, you speak of the occupants of these 107 houses, but do you know anything as to any change in the landlords and in the ownership of the houses ?— No, 1 do not, my Lord. 8260. I want to come to the crime in this district. You have prepared a table giving an account of the* crimes charged from 1892 to 1901—that is 10 years ?— Yes, my Lord. 8261. From what source did you obtain these figures? :—From the charge books at the stations in the division. 8262. That would be not from the police courts, but; the charges made at the police stations?—All have eventually gone to the police court, but I have taken them from the charge books. 8263. As far as you can tell, these figures accurately represent the charges under the different headings?— As far as I know. 8264. Where do you get your power to distinguish, between the British subject and the,foreigner ?—That is- always designated in the charge book. It,' is one of the features of the charge Book. If a person is a native of. a foreign State it iis there stated. 8265. Do you trust to the man and the way he speaks,, or his name or statements ?:—If we presume he is not a? British subject we ask Kim: what he is. 8266. And I suppose his language and name guided you?—To a great extent. 8267. And also his-statement?—Yes..MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 279 8268. You have got your table before you?—Yes. 8269. I tliink you have the headings showing the ^charges of crimes between 1892 and 1901 under the) ^following heads : " Crimes of Violence," " Burglary and House or Shop Breaking" ?—I think the crimes of violence include murder. 8270. I am coming to that. Then "Robbery and Larceny," " Hawking Illicit Spirits or Working Stills," Obstruction by Costermongers," etc. You have drawn a distinction there between the costermongers charged and the costermongers summoned ?—Yes, I have. 8271. What is the reason for that?—From what I read in one of the local papers, evidence has been given/ here that we took no action against costermongers; of •oourse, a very large number of costermongers are sum- moned, and have been summoned, for offences in the -street. 8272. But what is the difference between charged and 'summoned?—We should not charge the costermonger unless he refused his name and address. 8273. Then if he refused his name and address you would take him to the station?—Yes, if he wilfully ob- structed the highway. 8274. For our purposes we may add the charges and summonses together ?—Yes. 8275. That shows the obstruction ?■—Yes, it shows the obstruction of the streets. 8276. Then " Keeping Disorderly Houses and Keeping ^Gambling Houses " and " Disorderly Prostitutes." Those are your headings ?—Yes, my Lord. 8277. Now take your first heading, " Crimes of Vio- lence "—that heading will include murders, man- slaughter, malicious wounding, and all crimes where violence is used ?—Yes. 8278. It would include, I suppose, poisoning; but you treat those offences as offences against the person?—Yes. 8279. I see here in the year 1892, under the heading( ■" Crimes of Violence," there were 62 persons charged, -and of that number 55 were British subjects and seven were foreigners ?—Yes, my Lord. 8280. Your table will show the subsequent years up to 1901?—Yes. 8281. But in 1901 the persons charged, instead of "being 62, were 69, and of that 69, 40 were British sub- jects, as against 55 in 1892, and 29 foreigners, as against -seven in 1892?—Yes. 2. So there was a considerable proportionate in- crease, and a considerable increase, in fact, in the •^crimes committed by foreigners compared to those in 1892 ?—-Just so, my Lord. 8283. Now as to the second heading, " Burglary and Housebreaking/' In 1892 there were 54 persons ■ charged, distributed in this way—50 British subjects and four foreigners. In 1901 83 persons were charged — *65 British subjects and 18 foreigners. Now with regard to "Robbery axr! Larceny," which is really the same thing?—The distinction there, my Lord, is "Highway Robbery.'" 8284. Any theft is a larceny ?—Any ordinary larceny— picking pockets, and so on. 8285. In 1892 there were 1,070, of which 935 persons) were British subjects and 135 foreigners. Then in 1901 the 1,070 had fallen to 877—British subjects 696 and, "foreigners 181. Then " Hawking Illicit Spirits or Work- ing Stills," there were no charges in 1892 or in 18055. "The highest number was in 1899, when there were 18| - charges, and they were all foreigners. Then in 1900 there were seven charges, and they were all foreigners. In 1901 there were three charges—one British subject and three foreigners. How is it that this crime seems to have come into existence? There were no charges in "1892 and 1893. How has it'been introduced into the district ?—Undoubtedly by the foreigners. 8286. I should have thought so if it had not been fo* your figures,1 but in 1894 I see there were four charges, ; and all the four were British subjects ?—I do not know exactly, but; I should think they were naturalised British -subjects probably. 8287. (Mr. Norman.) Persons prevent your detecting that sort of crime?—No, I do not suggest that. 8510. You are speaking more of the difficulty of pro- ceeding against gambling houses and cases of that kind ? —Yes, that is principally the difficulty. 8511. That is where the language difficulty comes in ? —Yes. 8512. And to some extent with costermongers ?:—Yes, certainly. 8513. I ought to give you an opportunity of saying what you have to say with regard to Alderman Silver's evidence. Your attention has been called to that?—I read it in the local papers. 8514. At Question 2651, Alderman Silver says: " The foreign costers in Samuel Street are allowed to set all police regulations as to the distance to be observed be- ween street stalls at defiance ; they block the pavement and the roadway, and are generally allowed to do things which no English costeir would be allowed to do, or if he did would be promptly summoned for." Then he goes on to suggest that there is a certain amount of bribery among the police. What have you to say to that evi- dence?—In the first place there are no stalls in that street or the adjoining streets at all. There are barrows. The houses are very small ones, and they are populated by a foreign population, and since that occupancy these people have taken the windows out of the lower rooms, and they make a sort of shop of the house. It is in these particular streets to which atten- tion has been called, and in which so many summonses have been issued against these people during the last two years. They crowd the streets with their barrows and the streets are very narrow. The nearest marketMINUTES OF EVIDENCE* 285 place, which, is not very close by, is Watney Street, which is a recognised market place, and where stalls are permitted. 8515. Unless it is a recognised market place stalls are not permitted ?—Stalls are not permitted in the highway any way. 8516. It is a question of keeping them moving ?—It is a question of keeping them moving, and if they wil- fully obstruct the street, and do not keep moving, they are either charged or summoned for it. 8517. Is it a fact as far as you know that they are* allowed to do things that no English coster would be allowed to do, or that the system of bribery known as key money finds a counterpart in a smaller way amongst the street vendors?—I have several instances in which the foreign costermonger has offered the police,~or told the policeman he would give him something if he would let him go, and not summon him. Several cases are're- ported, and entries made in the occurrence books to that effect, but I have no knowledge, and I do not think the suggestion of bribery would hold water with the fact that there are so many prosecutions taking place within this particular area. 8518. That statement having been made, it is only fair that you should have an opportunity of denying it? —We have had 89 prosecutions in 1901, and up to the present 77 in 1902 in those particular streets. 8519. {Major Evans-Gordon.) There is one question Mr. I forgot to ask you about, this illicit still business. J, Mulvaney. Would you suppose there is a great deal more of that --- going on than you get under your notice ? How is that 24 July 1902. detected, and who looks after it ?—That is looked, after - by the officers of Inland Revenue. It is a fact that a gcod deal of this does go on, and I believe they sell spirits about the streets one to the other. It is very difficult to detect it. 8520. Is it not the case that these gambling houses provide a market for this stuff ?—We always find plenty of spirits in those houses when we raid them. 8521. But the police do not take the initiative in these cases?—No. 8522. Who finds it out ?—If a case comes to our knowledge we should refer it to the Inland Revenue authorities, and their officer generally attends, and if we have any information he would see into it, and if it was sufficient he would get a warrant, and we should send officers to accompany him to see he was not assaulted in executing the warrant. 8523. It seems rather a roundabout procedure, but you think there is a great deal more of it going on than actually comes to the surface in the courts?—les, I daresay there is. 8524. And it is a difficult thing to detect ?—Yes. TWENTY-SECOND DAY. HELD AT TOWN HALL, CABLE STREET, E. Monday, 28th July, 1902. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford {Chairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttleton, k.c., m.p. Sir^KENELM Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Yallance, Esq. Frederick Turner, called; and Examined. 8525. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand you have •a certain statement to make to the Commission. Will you kindly say what you have got to say as briefly as possible ?—I have been in my workshop from 18 to 20 years, and my rent has been £6 10s. per annum. Last year a Jew bought the property and he came to me about this time last year and wanted to drive me out. He said he wanted the shop for a friend of his to do some work in the same kind of business, and sell a little bit of greengrocery. I asked him whether I could remain. He said, "Well, you could remain by paying an increased rental." I asked him how much. Ha ■said, " So-and-so." He came in again and said I could remain. I asked him again how much, and he topped the price on again, so at last I said to him, " You have no foundation in you; you have no bottom in you." He said once that the rent would be such-and-such a price, and then the next time he said it would be so- and-so, and each time I asked him he kept on increas- ing the rent, and at last he served me with a three month's notice to quit. Being a yearly tenant I took no notice of it. Cn Christmas eve he got his solicitor to serve me with a six month's notice, and that expired on June 24th. My time of the year was not up then, :so the week before last he served me with a summons. I had to appear last Thursday at Whitechapel County Court, and when my solicitor showed his solicitor my papers, his solicitor withdrew the case. I saw him on Saturday evening, and he came and told me the ex- penses he had to pay. Of course, I politely said it was much better for him to pay the expenses than me, so next March, 1903, my time will be up. He said he did not mind waiting, but.he expects to get about £18 per annum for my premises or my workshop. 8526. Your contention is, I understand, that you will eventually be turned out of your workshop ?—Yes, in March. That is when my time is up. 8527. And that it is only by a trial in the court that you have been saved from being turned out now?— Yes, he would have liked to have turned me out in a week from the time he took the place. 8528. I understand that when your workshop is gone you will have a great difficulty in finding a place to carry on your business?—Yes, I will. I have a wife and family to support—in fact, all my children have been born in Smith Street. 8529. Why, in your opinion, are these people able to pay more rent than you could pay ?—The overcrowd- ing. Probably there will be somebody sleeping there. 8530. Do you know when you are turned out of your premises who will replace you there ?—I do not know for certain. 8531. Do you know whether the same trade that you are carrying on will be carried on there ?—Most likely, as they make for these business places—this class of people. 8532. Anyhow, you regard it as a hardship that you are turned out of your workshop, and so, to an extent, deprived of your means of making your living as a shoe- maker ?-—Yes. 8533. How many years have you occupied that work- shop?—18 to 20 years. 8534. If a similar business iu yours is started in that shop, then the people who turned you out will get your business ?—I daresay they will. Mr. F. Turner.286 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : r Mr. . 8535. Is your case one among many cases, or is it Turnw. an; isolated case ?—It is one amongst many. sljuly 1902. 8536- You have seen a similar process of tnrning out - the native population going on round you for some years ?—Yes. 8537. What is the feeling with regard to that, in your neighbourhood?:—The feeling is that there is nothing but the English going out and the Jews coming in. 8558. The foreigners coming in?—Yes. 8539. Do you believe that your business will be in- jured by your being turned out?—'Most certainly. 8540. That is to say, that you will be no longer able to make a living in that neighbourhood at your own trade ?—No. 8541. You will have to find means of carrying on your trade elsewhere ?—Yes. 8542. (Chairman.) Who is your landlord?—Morris Jacobs. 8543. Has he been in this country some time ?—I do not know how long he has been here. I saw him on Friday night, and he said he has been here some years. 8544. Is he an Englishman by birth, or a foreigner V —He is a foreigner—a Jew. 8545. Is he what we call an alien immigrant, or has he been resident here for some time?—-I take it he would be an alien. 8546. Have you anything more to say to the Com- mission?—I might say, my Lord, it is nothing unusual' to have such bills as this given to you in your own dis- trict (producing a hand-bill). I do not know what it says, but that was given to me three or four doors from my house. 8547. Do you know what lai.guage it is in?—It is? Hebrew. It is nothing unusual to have such bills as that given to you. 8548. {Lord Hothschild.) Has Morris Jacobs been? your landlord all the time you have been there?—From last July. 8549. He bought your house last July?—He bought the shop last July.. 8550. (Mr. Norman.) I am informed that this is a- bill in Yiddish, relating to a music-hall entertainment P— I brought it up to show you the sort of thing we get. 8551. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You only produce that- bill, I understand, to show the foreign character of the neighbourhood ?—Yes. #552. (Mr. Norman.) Could you tell the Commis- sioners about key-money?—Yes, my landlord said to- me on Saturday night, it was a matter of indifference' waiting a few months for possession, but he would get £5 for the key, and I made the remark, I could sell some* keys for 2d. each. He said he could get £5 for the- key of my little workshop. Mr. J. W. Johnson. Mr. James William Johnson, called; and Examined. 8553. (Chairman.) I believe you represent the British Brothers' League?—Yes. 8554. What is your position in connection with that league P—I am the chairman of the executive committee. 8555. With what object was that league, formed ?—, To bring about legislation upon the subject of the im- migration of destitute aliens. 8556. I believe you have as your principal honorary member, Colonel Sir Howard Vincent ?—Yes. 8557. How long have you been in existence as a ?—About 18 months. 8558- You say the object of the league is to bring about legislation to control the immigration of aliens. Will you, in your own way, tell me upon what grounds you are proceeding to support your claim to control that immigration?—In the first place, we maintain that this is not a question of politics, race or religion, nor does the country these aliens come from concern us. We know that many thousands have come, and are constantly coming into this country. We know they settle in different localities and1 live according to their traditions, usages, and customs. We say this is wholly deleterious to the Englishmen, as well as a gross in- justice and hardship upon us. The object of the league is to prevent any further incursion into this country of destitute aliens, no matter who they are, what they are, or where they come from. 'Reasons which brought the League into Existence. These reasons are many, it might be said their name is legion, but first we know, everybody knows, these aliens are coming into the country at the rate of many} thousands a month. They must liVe, and live1 (some- where and somehow; this causes a greater demand for house-room than would have otherwise occurred, and .thus it resolves itself into a question of supply and de- mand; we all know the result ! Higher rents, thi^s means higher rates, the consequence of which is, that the working man can save nothing, scarcely live. Wei remember what was said, and in 1889, with regard to this question. Our late Prime Minister, who was then in opposition, said " Something ought to be done with regard to this question " ; as well as other members in the House of Lords; while similar statements were; made by some Members of the House of Commons, and we say if this was required in 1889, how much more so now? Displacement. '' This great influx .is fast driving out the native from hearth and home. We ask, Why? Why should this be? Some of us have been born here, others of us have come into it when quite young children, have been brought up here, educated here; some of us have old associa- tions here of such a nature that we feel it hard to be compelled to part from, while there are various other» reasons why some do not care to move: reasons known only to themselves; but far away above all this is the growing feeling in our breasts. But we are forced to suffer all this, for whom ? for what ? The pauper alien. I hope you will bear with me when I inform you that there is a feeling growing stronger and stronger in our breasts against this treatment, an undercurrent (that}- some people will ignore, but let me say clearly it is* there) working quietly and silently, unseen, but still there. I do not (mean this as a menace in any way, but what I would say is this : that unless something is done this feeling is bound to grow, and no one can fairly expect us to go on tamely submitting to the present state of things for ever, and why ? Because the inhabitants of whole streets in some cases have been turned out tof make room for the foreigners, a large percentage in* others, and so on more or less, until you can scarcely find a street into which the alien has not penetrated. Suppose we take Oxford Street, Stepney. From Bedford Street to Jubilee Street you will find 91 houses and shops; in- these there are no more than 16 Englishmen, while 1105 to 124 are all new arrivals. From 126 to 148 only three of ihe native population remain, the rest are foreigners* From Bedford Street to 110, Oxford Street, we have about 20 English-born Jewish, families ; thsse we do not call either aliens or foreigners. Russell' Street, Demp- sey Street, Exmouth Street, Jubilee Street, Stepney Green, have a high percentage ; Baker Street, Nelson- Street, Yarden Street, Suffolk Street, Rutland Street, Newark Street, Mount Street, the whole of the western district of Stepney, have mostly aliens, Bedford Square,. Sidney Square, and Albert Square—I remember well when this was a good middle-class residential property, each house inhabited by one family, who' kept one or two servants, but now occupied mostly as tenement houses by the alien. In what used to be termed Upper Rutland Street, the English population have been turned out, and now so-called mansions built Upon the site of the former houses; these are for the foreigner, mostly with a; foreigner for agent; another large block (Davis Block),, between Newark Street and Russell Street, having the same object. Sidney Street, from Oxford Street to Commercial Road, nearly all aliens ; while there is also a large proportion with another, block of dwellings (Marton's Mansions), mostly aliens, between Oxford Street and Mile End!; in Jubilee Street,- where a few years ago there was no sign of a foreigner, it is safe to say that 50 per cent, are now aliens. In Redman's Road there were only two butchers' shops; these were kept by Englishmen, now there are six, there were seven, but one, that of a foreigner, has beeraMINUTES Oi\EVIDENGE 287 ^closed, and is now occupied by an alien as a tailor. " There were but two chandler's shops, now there are seven; of these, five are kept by aliens. There- is ..a street in Mile End (Derwood Street), the houses of which were on one side of the street only, they were put up for sale, and bought by a foreigner (Davis), the rents when sold were 7s. 6d. per week, after the purchase every tenant was removed, a little repairing "was done, when the rents were raised to 15s. per week. The mother of a gentleman I know well went after . one, as he has to live near his employments, she was informed, " We do not want English, these are for the foreigners." At another house, 27, Key Street, Mile End, .the landlord gave the tenant the option of .-clearing out by selling the key to a foreigner for 30s., or pay 2s. 6d. per week more rent (Mrs. Edney). So we might go on, in the parish of Stepney, but to con- . elude this point, I will say that in the " centre ward " of the Parliamentary division of Stepney, we< had "2,600 tickets for the King's dinner to the poor, one- third of which were allotted to the alien population. "This was, I believe, reduced to 500. At the same time . ai large number of the native tickets were also re- duced. 8559. Why were they reduced ?—'Because there were too many applicants for the supply of tickets. There were only 2,600 tickets, and I believe there were some- where about 5,000 or 6,000 applicants. Our Churches and Chapels. We say, also, that on account of the increase of the . alien population our churches, chapels, and mission halls are gradually losing their congregations, and, con- sequently, nearly emptied, because those who formed - the congregation have been compelled to find a : residence somewhere else, to make room for the foreigners. Two mission halls have had to be closed for the same reason, viz., one in Raven Row (or what is now Bedford Street), which had been under the care of Mr. Murray for from 25 to 30 years ; the other . a Salvation Army Barracks, in Jubilee Street, which has now become a club for aliens. A friend of mine the other Sunday morning counted less than 200 per- sons in five chapels and churches within almost a - stone's throw. Some people talk about losing interest in religion, and about the churches and chapels not " being filled. This, my Lord, is the reason, and the congregation has been forced to go, and the places " have been taken by aliens, so there is no one to take their place. These are things that speak for them- • selves, there :'s no gainsaying them, or the effects they - produce on the native population. On two occasions foreigners have knocked at the door of the house in which I live, asked my wife if the house was to " let, on being told " No, it was not," offered my wife - £10 for the key if we would move. Our Schools. Another consequence of the influx and overcrowd- ing is the enormous addition to school requirements, I know one school held all the foreign children, as well as those there were in the ' parish of Stepney ; that has been much enlarged, but now is much too , small, and can only take a very small percentage of the whole. At Settle Street School, Baker Street, : Smith iStreet, Rutland Street, the names of the child- ren on the attendance books are (and I am within the mark when I say) from 70 to 90 per cent, alien, while there is a good sprinkling of them in the other, schools of Stepney. The infant school attached to the Old , ^Stepney Meeting House is almost wholly composed of the children of the foreigners. Thus, those of us who . are the workers have to assist to educate those who by and by will be in the labour market contending against our own children for the wherewithal to exist, is this so? The "East London Observer" of March 22nd, 1902, states upon good authority (Jewish Board of Guardians) that there are 30,000 children of the foreigner in the elementary schools. 8560. Throughout the country?—In the East End -of London. This gives us something to think about, makes us stop to consider whither we are drifting' and what things will be like in another 20 years hence! This is one great reason why we think this alien immigration ought to be stopped. How The Alien Lives. It has been stated that the alien is more provident than the Englishman. I suppose by that it is meant that he is able to save more money, though, as with the native, a large proportion are always poor, and remain yjTm so; but let us look into the subject. An Englishman Johnson. takes a wife, but not* to work side by side with him in —— the same room at his trade ;< he goes out to follow his 24 ^uly employment, while his wife at home does her share, by keeping it clean and tidy, as well as making, mending, cooking, cleaning, and so on, and to do this well the wife has all her work cut out without anything else. These aliens are mostly tailors of some sort or other, boot and shoe and slipper makers (after they have been over here two or three years and learnt the trade) or the trades akin to them. He gets married then, he and his wife sit down side by side in one room (you can see them yourself from the street), in which they eat, work, drink, and sleep, a work room by day, a bed- room by night, while in some cases they employ another man or men to work for them in the same room during the day. Again, an Englishman could not do the work he has to get through upon what they subsist upon; few of them do really hard manual work. The Englisih working mjan that does heavy manual labour well has so to live that he may be enabled to do the work imposed upon him; he must have substantial food, and good at that, to make up the tissue of bone and muscle he is constantly expending ; this food causes «a greater outlay on the part of the Englishman than that re- quired by the foreigner; therefore, we maintain that the foreigner has the advantage over the native in this respect, and, therefore, although 'he is not, he may appear to be the more provident of the two. Place side by ^ side their net incomes, their rent, their cost of living, with their manual labour, and the foreigner comes out on top. Why is this ? Because, as I said, he is not called upon to expend and make up so much animal tissue as an Englishman, therefore his needs acre less, as he has less to make up. Again, we ask our- selves why we should be compelled to pay rates and taxes to help to keep them ; surely we have got enough of our own poor without having them coming over penniless to become chargeable to our poor law guar- dians. Their females in some cases even have to go into the workhouse for the purpose of giving birth to their offspring, while in some cases, our own work- men have been turned out of their homes, and have had to pay the guardians to take their families in the house until they could procure a tenement to live in. We ask, is this right ? Is it right that we should be burdened thus? As far down as Leeds in Yorkshire there are 200 foreigners in receipt of relief from the guardians of that place, so that one may not be far wrong m saying there are some in the East of London. We say our country is too small. We, the British -Brothers League, think, and believe, that this country is too small to take any more in, that its own natural increase will be, and is, quite sufficient; therefore, we say there is no room for the foreigners. If America, with its vast extent of country, with its vast resources yet untouched, has to pass a law to keep out these undesirables, our Colonies follow in the steps of America, and will not give these people domicile, if in tmr latest acquisition in South Africa they are not allowed to land, surely, in this little bit of country, in this small spot on the earth's surface, in this restricted and over-populated country, we cannot afford to let. them in any longer; we have enough, and more than enough, there is more room in the countries they come from than there is here. It may be said that these aliens are a nation within a nation, living upon tli© nation within which it exists, because, while they get all they possibly can out of the native, with whom they live, they will only trade within their own nation, se to speak, or, m other words, will not trade with u#» any more than they can help, or than they are com- pelled to do. We have already stated that we know no race, religion, or politics, as a London paper stated on June 21st, 1902: " From a statesman's point of view, the question of race, hatred, or religious bigotry must not be allowed to enter into this controversy." This quotation we heartily endorse; this is the very last thing we would think of; and then, if these things did enter into it, most of us, at any rate, would give the whole thing up, and let it take its own way sooner. But the same paper also said : " The real question which presents itself for solution is, whether alien immigration is that of a type which is capable of being absorbed, in the course of a few generations, into the general population of the land in the same way as our people, on many occasions in its history, absorbed alien refugees from many lands : or, whether these im- migrants constitute a class, which will reside per- manently with us, as a separate and distinct section288 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. J. W. of the community, preserving its own customs, .habits, Johnson. and peculiarities, and living as much to itself as the —- circumstances of modern life will permit. It is this 24 July 1902. aspect of the immigration problem, so far as it affects - the East ,End of London, that is, in reality, its most dangerous and objectionable feature, for as soon as im- migration reaches a point at which it tends to produce distinct settlements of persons of foreign character- istics!, who do not mix up with and become absorbed in the general population, it becomes a thing of which a statesman is bound to take notice." That is what we, the British Brothers' League, say. It goes on to say that "No one has come forward with a remedy." We answer we are mostly, at any rate, working people, and do not pretend to propose one, with the exception of stop it! We only as< other countries, know we suffer a tremenldous wrong, we know it wajits remedying, and we know, if our statesmen are whole-hearted in the matter, they could soon find one, as they do for most things, i«nd can do, if they like and will. They are not only a nation within a nation, but some of them are allowed to acquire land and houses, and do it, and, as soon as they do, they raise the rent, and in a little while sell it to another foreigner, who again raises the rent, and in this way, we say, live on usi like parasites, sucking out our hearts' blood, because we wish to live, and will, as far as possible, a little bit decent. In Hawkins Street, for instance ('I speak only of three houses), they were sold—a foreigner bought them—immediately the rents were raised from 12s. to 18s. per week, or notice to quit; one man (Mr. Bird) could not pay, and, though he argued with the new landlord as to the state of his wife's health, he would not allow him to stay; the poor fellow had to move on the Friday night; early on Sunday morning the wife gave birth to a child, and nearly lost her life in doing so ; had that man lost his wife, you and the law would ihave called it murder if the husband had shot that landlord, but we ask where would have been the difference between the two. Is it any wonder, then, that we natives begin to feel embittered against such treatment as that at the hands of those to whom we give shelter from persecution (as pretended), if such things as these are the cause. We say, and say so without one heart pang, they will deserve it. We ask : Are they not persecuting us? Have they not come from persecution to persecute ? Are they not revenging themselves on us f Are they not taking an advantage of our institutions, of our law, of our freedom to use them against us, as implements by which to make us suffer ? We do not forget the laws have been altered, and may have to be altered again. The three houses in Hawkins Street are 20, 41, 36. The Result. We, the British Brothers' League, feel the result of this will be very great, especially if we should ever drift into a war with a European country, which may God forbid. Food would rise to starvation prices, we should not only have to feed our own, but these aliens as weii) and we ask, How ? Some of us are old enough to re- member the Crimean War and what occurred then. We shudder to think what it would be now. We may be , wiser than our forefathers, but we are a great deal more ' foolish, for we see our good strong, hale, hearty, healthy young men and women leave their home and country, driven out by such specimens of humanity as most of these aliens, you may see many going eastwards before six o'clock in the morning with a written direction in a language they cannot as yet utter a word. They openly tell us they are going to have the country. To us it seems madness to allow the silent invasion to go on. We have arrived to such a pitch in East London now (and we will show you if you come with us) that when the} borough council issue public notices they have to do so in two languages or more for all I know, but we ask why should we have to pay for the extra printing? Because the alien pleads ignorance when it suits him, as Judge Bacon, of the Whitechapel County Court, could testify, and only when it suits him; at other times he under- stands well enough. 8561. What are the two languages P—One is English. I don't know what the other one is, but it is not German. The Housing Problem. We, the British. Brothers' League, say, and maintain that this alien immigration is at the bottom of the housing problem, and this is a question that we do not believe this or any other Commission will be able to solve until something else is done. We say this must be- stopped. You allow these poor creatures to come into* this country ^ the result of their coming is, you must find them room in which to dwell or let them find where they can, because we have a law which says they must not. sleep in the street, nor will the policemen permit them, neither can they work for their food alone, nor secure other domestic necessities; then what is to be done ?: Only one out of two things is left, you must allow this overcrowding to go on, or stop the immigration, which, in our opinion, is the wisest and most humane course to pursue. You may talk about building for these poor people until we are tired, or until England is bricks- and mortar from Landisi End to John o' Groats, for this cannot be done in one year or two even, if you build as high as the Tower of Babel or only as high as a line of battle ship's sky-scraper. Lt us suppose this is attempted. How much better will you be off? You build to provide homes for 20,000 persons per annum. Will that doi ? No, not if you allow 60,000 to come in, the overcrowding will still be the same, for with the* 30,000 immigrants you build for, you have to take into consideration also our own natural increase; and so you may go on, and the more you attempt to solve the pro- blem the further you will find yourself outside its accom- plishment ; the fact is, it is a sheer impossibility. Let us look the thing straight in the face, let us be men,, and deal with this thing in a manly spirit, and we say,, though we pity and sympathise with some of these- people, yet our own flesh and blood must come first in. the struggle for existence, and those we must, as Eng- plishment; the fact is, it is. a sheer impossibility. Let. us look the thing straight in the face, let us be men, and be men, and the best way in our opinion, is to treat aliens kindly 'and honestly, and not lead them into a fool s paradise, let us tell them gently, but firmly, we cannot make room for them here, there is more room for them where they are. There is a great deal of newspaper talk (that is, if newspapers do speak),' just now, about- the great loss of British industries, and don't you think we may lose when our very best workmen are driven out of the country to make room for such as come. Let our own remain, and England, good, great, glorious old England, can hold her own against the world. Model Dwellings. These ^ so-called model dwellings, though they cer- tainly give more room for housing, are not what the- aveiage Englishman likes, most of them who do live in them do so under compulsion, they must live near their work, I know some who were moved to make way for one of these models, there were 17 cottages containing about 20 to 24 families, and on this ground were erected dwellings for 168 families, this occurred on Stepney Green. We know it is said that the greatest number must be looked after at the expense of the least number, but this does not appear to me to be quite correct, or they would build on the rich man s park, and leave the poor man's garden alone; if they did so, there would not be so much hard fight- ing about the working man going to the public-house. We venture to say if this question touched the rich there would very soon be a stop put to it, it does not, and some of them (the landlords) think they mav grind the working man to powder, yes, grind him down, he will stand it as long -as the rich man becomes the* richer upon his ashes ; but we say beware of the dust, it rises with a high wind, and may become injurious even to those who cause it. Had it been a rich man's problem, it would have been solved long ago, but no, it is a poor man's trouble, and it seems as far .as the authorities are concerned, it may remain so. It is not for us to suggest any remedies. Parliament must do that, and, as I have said, will it be in earnest in the matter; if not, this agitation must go on, and go on it will, for this evil is not going to rest, or end, thank God. There are at least 72 Members of Parliament who see the evil in its present state, others also will be added to their number, and it will not be long before nearly every one of them will be in the league, and then we shall see, if not before that, something can be done with a willing mind and a firm hand. Then, and not till then, will our grand old country be saved. 8562. I understand that what you have read you prepared for the purpose of giving evidence here?—I have prepared it because I am not an extemjXMra speaker.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1 r 289 8563. It has been prepared for this evening's evi- dence, and not for any other purpose ?—Yes. 8564. What is your occupation?—Labourer. 8565. Do you live here in Stepney?—I have lived here all my life. 8566. Naturally, you are speaking with your know- ledge of the evil that occurs in Stepney?—Exactly. 8567. I suppose you are aware that the alien im- migration population exists to a much greater extent in Stepney than elsewhere?—That I am not prepared to admit. It may be as great in Whitechapel, or greater, and it may be as great or greater in part of St. George's, and it is spreading rapidly. 8568. Our returns say that in Stepney it is as high as 28 per cent, of the population, but it does not approach that figure in any other district?—I do not know what the returns are, but I believe it is a great deal more than that. 8569. Do you speak of the Parliamentary borough or the municipal borough ?—The Parliamentary borough. 8570. At any rate, it is in Stepney and its neigh- bourhood that the evil exists to the greatest degree? —Yes. 8571. You, of course, treat this question from your point of view as a national question?—I treat it from a working-man's point of view. 8572. That is your point of view, beause you are a working-man who are treating it; but I ask you do you regard this immigration as a national evil or local evil?—A national evil. 8573. As I understand you, you would prevent these aliens coming into the country at all ?—Exactly. 8574. Any of them?—'Any of them. 8575. That is what you suggest—to shut them out, not for the purpose of relieving Stepney only, but re- lieving the whole nation ?—Exactly. 8576. Take county and county. There is county af;ter county where you can scarcely find an alien existing. Would they be relieved by shutting the alien out ?—-When they get a few there . they would soon run, and they would soon fall, too, like they did down Cornwall Street here. 8577. What I understand is, you would shut the alien out to prevent the evil before it occurs ?—Yes. 8578. Prevention is better than cure according to your view?—'Exactly. 8579. Take Stepney. You said the aliens coming here have to be supported by rates and taxes. What taxes* are used to support the alien ?—The poor rates. 8580. You are speaking of the rates ?—I mean partly porr rates and partly school rates ; but they all come on one paper to us, so that we know no difference. 8581. You are speaking of the local rates—not the taxes ?—Yes. 8582. .Now take the poor rates—do these aliens come in greater number on the poor rates than the native population ?—Not in proportion. 8583. Do you say that the alien immigrants are supported in any larger number by the poor rates ?— According to the proportion, yes. 8584. Take the Jewish poor. Do not the Jewish community relieve their own poor?—Not all. 8585. A great many ?—A great many, but not all. 8586. Have you got the returns of the numbers of these immigrants chargeable to the poor rate?— No';-but I have the return of the number chargeable to the poor law guardians at Leeds, and there are 200 even in Leeds. 8587. What is the population of Leeds?-—There are no fewer than 200 Jews who are at present receiving union relief at Leeds, and the guardians have been requested by the local Rabbi to give their permis- sion for Jewish prepared food to be served to the sick and imbecile coming under their charge. I have stated that we know no religion, and we know no race, and I do not wish to be drawn into the Jewish question. 8588. The Board of Trade -statistics give the paupers in Leeds as 63. Who is your informant?—I get it from this slip of paper. {Producing.) 6)44-. 8589. What is it?—A cutting from a paper; but I M . J. W. cannot tell you the name of the paper. I am told JoJtison, it is the "Daily Mail." TT" 8590. We speak with all respect for the Press, but ^ we have the report here from the Board of Trade, - and it says that the aliens supported by the rates in Leeds amount to 63. We need not discuss de- tails of that kind, but you have taken the " Daily Mail " statistics?—I have taken it from this paper that I have got. Somebody sent it to me. But why the " Daily Mail " any more than the " Daily News " ? 8591. We are not discussing the details of the Press ; but I give you the Board of Trade returns of 63 ?—We do not believe in them. 8592. At any rate they are returns from the Board of Trade. You say it is not your duty to find a remedy, but I understand you do suggest a remedy, that is that an order should go forth that no alien is to come into this country. Is that your remedy? —That is the only one I say. 8593. Nothing else will do?—Nothing else will suit me. 8594. Have you anything to suggest how we can relieve the want of house accommodation in Stepney except by keeping all aliens out ?-^No, you cannot. My opinion is it is an impossibility. 8595. And still you go back to your only cure— no aliens ?—No aliens. 8596. No more to come in ?—No. 8597. Would you turn any out who are here ?— No. 8598. You would keep them?—Yes. 8599. They have got vested interests?—Our view is not to interfere with those here, or anybody who is here, and I think most of those who are here are. of our opinion, too—or a large number of them are. 8600. (Lord Rothschild.) Could you tell the Commis- sion how many houses were pulled down when Mann., and Grossman's brewery was extended ?—No. 8601. Do you think as many as 100 were pulled! down ?—'I do not know. 8602. Would you be astonished to hear there were • over 300 pulled down?—I do not know. 8603. Do you know how many tickets were allotted for the King's Dinner to Stepney?—Yes. 8604. How many?:—2,600 for the Central Ward of Stepney. 8605. That is only the Central Ward?—That is all' I know about it. I was on the committee. 8606. How many were allotted to Jews in the Central; Ward, or to aliens 500 at the finish. 8607. I have before me here the statement that 40,000 tickets were allotted to the Municipal Borough of Step- ney for the King's Dinner, and of that under 4,000v were allotted to Jews and aliens, and were more than were required?—I was on the committee from the be-. ginning to the finish, and I know. I got the tables., ready and served the dinners. 8608. (Chairman.) You were on the committee for- the Central Ward?—Yes. 8609. Lord Rothschild was speaking of the whole* borough ?—I do not know anything about the whole. 8610. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You started your remarks by referring to 'destitute aliens ?—Yes. 8611. In the proposition you have made to exclude aliens, do you mean destitute aliens, or all aliens?— Destitute aliens. 8612. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to this League of British Brothers, I do not think you have told us what it consists of. Do you know the number of members of the British Brothers' League?—The British Brothers' League is a league that does not re? quire very much money for carrying out its programme, because no one is paid. Therefore, on our manifesto you will see that no one is required to pay unless he likes. The only thing we require is his signature, and then he is a member. I have already in my posr session over 45,000 signatures. 8613. Are there branches of the League in various parts ?—Yes. 8614. What branches are there?—Hackney, Bethn&l Green,. Shoreditch, St. George's, Roydon, in Essex, and Stepney. O O290 ROYAL COMMISSION JDN^ALIEN IMMIGRATION : vMn i'Ii\ ALFRED Ttlbr, C* A\ Tyler. ,1 8615. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yon belong to the St. ' Andrew's Institute, Bethnal Green?—Yes. . 8616. Have you been long a resident in Betlinal Green ?—Some 15 years. 8617;: You; know the district's of Whitechapel and Bethnal Green?—^1 was born in Whitechapel, or on the boundary of Whitechapel, Mile End New Town, Spital- fields. 8618. How old are you?—Forty-five. 8619. You have known these districts all your life ? —Yes. 8620. Have you observed a great change in-the neigh- bourhood since you have known it ?—A most wonderful •change. In my early days as a boy, the neighbourhood in which I was born was principally composed of small tradespeople. The East End is always looked down upon, but in many respects, I think, unjustly so. Such neighbourhoods as the courts and alleys, and the greater portion of the streets, were composed of respect- able working people, as I knew them in those days, but now they form practically a Polish quarter ; but in those early; days it was composed of small tradespeople, comfortable working men, bricklayers, carpenters, and artisans of all kinds. 8621. What streets do you particular refer to?—I should refer to Chicksand Street; that is the street in which I was born. 8622. Is that in Whitechapel?—Yes, practically Mile End New Town; it i^ a small hamlet that belongs to Whitechapel; and then, Gordon Street and Booth .Street.. 8623. And Palmer's Row, Whitechapel?-—Palmer's .Row is on the other side, the south side, of White- chapel Road. 8624. That is in Stepney ?—Yes, in the Borough of Stepney; it is all within a short radius of where I was iborn. 8625. What is the contrast that you see now between the condition then and the condition now?—The con- • dition is most wonderfully altered ; it is now more like . a. foreign country than anything I know of; I have never been in a foreign country, but from what I have heard of foreign countries, I say that. The streets are far filthier than they ever were, and the scavenging seems to have gone wrong. Whether that is the fault of the sanitary authority, or whether it is the result of the habits of the people, I am not going to say, but things have not been kept up to the standard they used to be kept up to. 8626. You attribute that to the change in the popula- tion?—I do. 8627. Do you mean the dirtiness of the streets, or the dirtiness of the individual houses ?'—The habits of the people, principally. In the early days I am speak- ing of, we had a good sprinkling of what we called the English. Jew-. Generation after generation, the English Jew was almost the same as ourselves in everything but xeligion—they were in manners and tastes the same as -ourselves; they kept their places clean, and all that kind of thing. But the great rush of late years seems to have caused the neighbourhood to go down ; people are packed on the top of one another; but whether that is the cause of things going back I do not know. 8628. With regard to overcrowding, do you person- ally know anything about that?—I know the number of people living in a house is double, and, I might say, treble what it was in the old style. The old style > of Englishman would have a house of three or four rooms ; one would be his workshop, and then a living room,"and a couple of bedrooms. But the style of to- day is that every room is a living room, workshop, and foedrooHi. 8629. A workshop and a living room?—A workshop, living room, and bedroom all combined. 8§30.-With regard to this movement into Bethnal Green* is that of more recent years ?—More recent years. 8631. It has been going on recently?—Yes. 8632. That shows the spread of the alien population fiom Whitechapel eastwards ?—Yes, north-east. §&j$3; What about the feeling with regard to the alifc&S) come - across -a 'feeling among the native population with regard to it?—Yes. I am connected led ; and Examined. with a social club of working-men—nothing to do in any way with politics, but simply a social club—and the feeling there is certainly a very strong feeling; I do not say they wish to do. any harm, but their feeling is that this Commission must do something. They say, if not, what is 'going to become of them, and what will it be in the next ten years? 8634. During the past ten years, there has been an enormous increase, and they are asking what is going, to happen during the next ten years ?—-Yes. In the early days that I remember, the Whitechapel district, Spitalfields, and Mile End, New Town, resembled parts of Bethnal Green to-day; and they are gradually being stamped out now by the alien immigration. 8635. Has this movement been accompanied by a growing rise in rents ?—Yes. 8636. And also the practice of paying "key-money" for the houses?—Yes. 8637. A premium for the key?—Yes, that is quite common. 8638. That has crept into Bethnal Green of recent : years ?-—Yes. 8639. Do you say that the raising of rents is con- fined to the foreign landlord principally?'—-Yes, prin- cipally. 8640. Do the. English landlords as well take advan- tage of the demand for houses?—Yes, but in a smaller way ; they hold it out as a threat; they talk about.put-... ting a shilling on our rfent after some repairs.have been done; and if the English tenant suggests that it would make the house dear, the English landlord would say, I can get 2s. or 3s. a week more for your house if 5 let it to an alien. 8641. But you say that rents have gone up all over the neighbourhood ?-^Yes, all over the neighbourhood. 8642. Do you come across shopkeepers who have been injured?—Oh, yes. 8643. Tradesmen?—Yes; tradesmen in many cases have gradually had to go out, because their trade has gone, on account of the aliens dealing naturally among their own people, as far as they can. 8644. They deal with one another?'—Yes. 8645. And the English tradesman consequently loses his business?'—Yes, he cannot pay his way, and he has to go. 8646. Is there any other point that you would like to say anything about ?—In the last witness's evidence he referred to churches and chapels. What has come under my notice is with regard to Christ Church, Spital- fields, which is one of the best in the East End of Lon- don, and which had a very large congregation of the better class of working people and tradespeople. In the same street there was a very large Wesleyan chapel under Mr. John Telford ; round the corner there was a Methodist chapel, and the congregation was very large in all cases, and there were Sunday Schools and every- thing else. Now, there is not a Christian religion being taught in Spitalfields, bar the Established Church. 8647. The alteration in the churches and the reduc- tion of the congregation and the mission halls are a mere natural consequence of the change from the English population to a foreign population of another religion ?—That is it. 8648. That is one thing following upon another?—• Yes. I also suppose it is simply because it is the Established Church that it stands. If it did not belong to the Established. Church it would have gone before now. But, simply , because it is the church of the parish it stands. There is a iery poor attendance. 8649. {Chairman.) Have you said all you have to say, or is there any other point that you wish to tell lis about?—No, nothing more occurs to me. This is the first time I have given evidence in public, and I may have overlooked something. 8650. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You have not told us what your business is ?—I am a basket maker by trade. My Lord, I should like to say, on behalf of the club with which I am connected in the East End of London, the Working Man's Club, that this question is deeply felt, and they do hope that this Commission will do something, not only for ourselves, but for the aliens who are already here, who are badly crushed, and in many cases even worse than ourselves. Mr, William Charles Thom 8651. (Chairman.) Are you a tobacconist, carrying on your business in Mile End Hoad ?—-Yes. 8652. How long have you been in trade there ?-— :About 42 years, and my father before me. 8653. Has there been any change in the character of your business of late ?—Yes, very much so. 8654. "Will you tell us what you have to say on that point ?—There has been a decrease of trade, and also a poorer class of trade; the better class of neighbours have left the neighbourhood, and the poorer popula- tion have taken their place. 8655. Do you attribute your falling off in trade en- tirely to the change in the population ?—-Quite so.- ; • 8656. Do the aliens, when they come here, open shops of their own ?—Oh, yes, many of them. 8657. Has that happened in your neighbourhood with tobacconists' shops ?—Yes, all businesses. 8658. I suppose the aliens go to their own shop- keepers?-—1The majority do. 8659. Do these tobacconists who open businesses, as ifr were, against you, sell cheaper than you have been willing to, or how do they deal with you in respect of price ?—Some of them sell cheaper. 8660. How can they afford to sell cheaper than you •do ?—Their expenses are less.. My shop is one shop. They divide a shop into two, and let half to another trade, a boot shop or a stays-maker, or some, other business, Their expenses are about half the amount. 8661. Apart from the tobacconist trade, has there Jj?!§en., a;very < l^rge increase in -the,.,number of traders .^nep^ll^ .of,.foreign, birth ?—Yes, a very. largey one. ■ f i 8662;'> what particular district has that shown it- self ImoSt-?>^T might say almost the whole of the East End, but particularly Stepney and the surrounding streets.: - , v. 8663. Does the increase of the foreigners extend to •businesses only, or do the private ones follow occupa- tions?—The majority of the private shops are occupied by these aliens now which were formerly occupied by British working-men who dealt with me. Those British working-men have left the neighbourhood "through being turned out, and are living some few miles from me, and, consequently, I lose their custom. 8664. Do these working-men, whom you say have been displaced, come back to Stepney at their old quarters to work, or do they remain away?—They return to their work, but they have to get, perhaps, to Manor %rk, ,or Walthamstow, and they come up by rail. v; 8665. What sort of work is it they come back to?— 4-1J kinds of trades. $666; Would it bo tailoring or boot-making, or what would it- be ?—Tailoring, boot-making, harness-making, and so on. 8667. Where do they find shops or a room to work in ? If they live away, where do they get accommodation? —With their employers. '• 8668. They work in shops, then, with their em- ployers?-—Yes. 8669. But have you not a,great class of aliens now which occupies the private houses to live in and work in at the same time ?—Yes. 8670; They ,are not employed in shops, but are work- ing on their own account, and turning out goods that are sold as ready-made goods ?—Yes. 8671.' What I want to know from you is,. has there been a change in the habits of the neighbourhood— that whereas the English workman formerly worked in his employer's shop, now a great deal of work is done by the alien in a private house ?—I believe so. They carry on all kinds of trades, but who employs them I do not kno^. 8672. But the English workman, I suppose, before this invasion, as you describe it, used to work more or less in his. employer's shop, and liv«e at home ?—Yes. 8673. That custom has been changed to a great ex- tent ?—Some of them are with the same employer, but they are living away from the neighbourhood. I have 6144. Mt TV 0 s, called in ; and Examined. Thoma4. xwo customers who work over in the Borough, and ^ July^l902s they lived near me, but now they have gone down to Stratford, and, consequently, I do not see them. 8674. They live away because they cannot get a house here, and come back to work in their employer's shops ?—They cannot get houses here in this neighbour- hood. 8675. They cannot travel too far?—No. 8676. They would like to be somewhere near to this neighbourhood?—Yes. 8677. Where do they generally go, to Walthamstow? —Some to Manor Park, some to Plaistow, and some to Walthamstow. . 8678. Has there been any change in the extent of the \ .'A trading on Sundays?—As regards my trading, do you mean? 8679. No, generally in the neighbourhood ?—In what respect, stalls or shops ? 8680. Any change in the amount of trade on Sun- days ?-—All the streets and roads now have stalls kept by Jews, which used to be kept by English coster- mcngers. 8681. What is the result; has there been a great in- crease in Sunday trade?—Yes, amongst that class of people. 8682. I suppose you have always kept your shop upen on Sundays?—Yes. 8683. Yours is one of the excepted trades?'—Yes. 8684. Have you anything to say about the conduct and character of these foreigners ? Are they temperate^ or intemperate ?—Temperate, I believe, as far as I cam see. I am not out much. 8685. How do they conduct themselves generally?" —Quietly. 8686. Have you heard anything about illicit stills coming into existence?—I have read about it in the newspapers. 8687. You know nothing about it yourself?—I have read of cases in the local police courts. 8688. We have had the statistics. Have you had any knowledge or any information brought to you on the subject of key-money ?—Yes. 8689. Will you tell us what is going on about this: key-money system?—One case that came under my notice was one of my customers who had to leave his house ; and' being anxious to find another, he endea- voured to get 193, Exmouth Street, and he was toldf the rent and the taxes were £1 3s., which he thought was very heavy. 8690. Per week?—Yes. Being anxious to be near his employment, after some consideration he decided to take it. He was then told that £10 would have to be paid for key-money ; he asked if that money would be returned when he gave up the house, and he was told no. 8691. What do you understand key-money to mean't —It is for possession of the house. 8692. To whom is it paid, the landlord or the out- going tenant?—The landlord or landlady, as the case may be. 8693. Does the outgoing tenant ever claim it?—The tenant was told he would have to forfeit it when he went out, and it would not be returned. • 8694. When the outgoing tenant is leaving, does not he sometimes receive it from the outgoing tenant ?—I believe so, but in this case the house was empty. 8695. Generally, this key-money is sometimes paid to the landlord and sometimes to. the outgoing tenant for the purpose of paying him to go out?—Yes. .8696, What is the feeling caused by these aliens; coming here in such numbers? Do any fights take- place ?—No, I have not seen any, but I have heard some speak in a very hostile manner—some more so than others. - ■ ' . • ■ 8697. No fights, as far as you know, have taken place yet?—No. 002291 HOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. W. r. 8698. (Sir Kenelm Digly.) Are there many workmen TBbiYtas. employed in the tobacco trade in Stepney?—There are ^ cigar manufacturers, principally in Stepney; they em- 24 July ! 90pl0y a large number of hands. » ................8699; Are these principally aliens?—I think not. Some are, but the majority are English Jews. 8700. Is it a trade that the aliens follow?—I believe so—that and cigarette making. 8701. There are large factories, are there not?—Yes. 8702. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand that you have suffered, personally, in your business owing to the immigration of foreigners?—Yes. 8703. Your business has gone down in value ?—Yes. 8704. You are a loser in pocket by the advent of these people ?—Yes. 8705. Do you regard that as a hardship?—Un- doubtedly. 8706. (Mr. Norman.) Are you one of a class, or are you an exception in this matter, or do you regard your- self as being one of many in the same position ?—As regards loss of trade, do you mean? 8707. Yes?—I am one of many. 8708. You regard yourself rather as a type of Englishman who has suffered in this way ?—Quite so. 8709. And not as an exception ?—No. Mr. R. Partes. Mr. Robert Parkes, called in ; and Examined. 8710. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You were until lately deputy- chairman of the British Brothers' League ?—Yes. 8711. There are certain points in this question to which you have paid particular attention, I believe?— yps, 8712; We have had a great deal of evidence about the rise of,rents in Stepney. Can you give us your view as to that, and any facts that you have in your mind?—In the first place, I am going to appeal on behalf of the tradesmen of Stepney. They have asked me to do so, on account of not being able to come themselves, and have asked me to be their deputy, and to act as their spokes- man. 8713. You mix a good deal with the tradesmen in Stepney?—I do^ right from the public-house upwards. In the first place, I would like to state with respect to the rents, that in Trafalgar Square, very near where I .am living myself, the old rent used to be 13s. to 14s. per week, and the present rent now in many of the houses is 23s. to 27s., and even 30s. was. asked by one of the1, landlords, a Polish Jew. 8714. Of what time are you speaking, when you say -they were 13s. or 14s. a week?—About three years ago. 'There are, I believe, about nine English people living and residing in the neighbourhood, and they pay 17s. 6d. "There are many landlords who raise the rents as well as ;the foreigners. Likewise, I am going to have mine raised in a little time. I am living on expecting it. At - the same time; in the instance I have given, £11 was .asked for the key money, which was refused, and as the landlord could not let it to anyone else, he moved into . it himself. He could not get the money. Now we come to the numbers on the School Board, and I want to show you the numbers there are—Christians and aliens. The ' Trafalgar Board School contains 1,700, and the Infants' ."School contains 480, and out of that 480 389 are aliens . :and Jews. 8715. Taking the infants and the others, there are , about 2,000 ?—They reckon about five to one of the : aliens and the Jewish persuasion. 8716. Your 389 is in the Infants' School ?—Yes. 8717. Have you got the statistics of the other school ? —They reckon about five aliens to one taking it all through. I do not say they are all aliens—there may be some English Jews there. 8718. You are speaking of one school?—That is only » one school. There are some where they go a little bit "higher than that, and in fact, you have to wait two years ^before you can get in. They will accept an alien -parents' child before a Christian child can come in. 8719. Why is that ?—I do not know whether they get •a tip, I am sure. 8720. Please answer seriously. We are not here for pleasure. What is the reason ? Do not make any sur- mise, and if you do not know, say you do not know. What reason do you suppose, if you are serious in say- ing it at all, is there for the refusal of Christians and the acceptance of alien children?—To my mind, all the authorities in the parish seem to favour the aliens in preference to favouring those who have been here for years, that is my opinion. Whether they are afraid that they won't get in again when the next election comes, I cannot say, but that is my firm belief. Thinking that the majority are aliens in the neighbourhood, they favour those parents before they favour the Christian children. The next is with regard to the shopkeepers. 8721. Before you leave that matter, are you serious in saying that any children are refused accommodation, in the Board Schools?—I cannot mention the names now. 8722. Have you any instance in your mind at all?— Yes, one of the members of the British Brothers' League had to wait nearly a twelve month before his brother could be got in. I cannot give you the name now, but there are numbers in the room who might give you that. I know that for a fact. 8723. I do not understand it. They are fined if they do not send their children to school. If any of your friends can give us the name, we shall be glad to have it ?—I might be able to send it up to you. Then with regard to the shopkeeper?, in the first instance there is » Mr. Smedley who keeps a milk shop. 8724. (Chairman.) It is a very serious thing what you have said—-that you do not know whether the officials receive a tip or not. Have you any ground for saying that ?—It cseems so very strange that we should always be rejected. 8725. Have you any ground for saying you think they receive a tip, and if so, you ought to know the man who has received that tip?—I have heard other people say it, and I have thought it very strange. 8726. You are charging a fellow-citizen with being corrupt, and with receiving money in a most disgraceful way, and when you are asked what is his name, yon cannot give it ?—Perhaps it comes in in the way of get- ting a vote. 8727. You said they received a tip, and we thought you meant a money tip?—No, I get a little bit muddled sometimes, and I may have made a mistake in that point. There is a Mr. Smedley in High Street, Step- ney, who keeps a milk shop, and who was paying 19s. a week. The property was bought .by a Polish Jew, who wanted 25s., and Mr. Smedley had to get out at a very great inconvenience to himself, because he could not pay the higher rent. He is doing less trade than ever he did before, because right opposite to him there is a grocer's shop open, and they are selling milk. They sell milk everywhere now, and the consequence is they try to drive him out. They absolutely did a passing of soil, and dropped it in amongst his cans, and that is not the first time it has been done, because I have seen it myself. They drive you out; if you won't go out by fair means, you have to go out by f6ul. Then they anglicize the> name. There is a certain man now selling milk in the neighbourhood, who is named Doblowiski, and the name he has painted on his carts now is " Isidore Miller." There is another shop open in the linen drapery way, and the man has gone a little bit Irish, and calls him- self O'Brien. Then, with regard to baker's shops, you <5an find them in cellars. There is one in the Mile End iload, where some time ago there were 15 found sleep- ing on the Monday morning. I have seen bread coming out of a place with 25 people sleeping upstairs, and the baking of the bread is done in the cellars. 8728. (Chairman.) Have you anything more to say ?— There is only one other thing, my Lord James. You have always been very humane and always had a first- class name, and I Jiope you will do the very best you can for the working classes, and let us have a little justice.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 293 Mr. J. Axelrad, called; and Examined. J, Axelrad. 8729. (Mr. Norman.) Are you an alien or a natural- ised British subject?—I was born in Manchester, only I went away from the country when I was a boy five years old. I went to Roumania with my parents, and it is nearly 20 years since I came back. 8750. You have been practically resident in this country 20 years;?—Yes. 8731. What is your occupation ?—When I was younger I used t© be? a tailor, but since I lost my strength I travel with curiosity things. 8732. You appear to be in ill health. How long have yon had bad health ?—For five years. 8733. What is the matter with your health?—I was. lying ib the infirmary in the middle of winter, and a doctor gave me papers saying I had consumption. 8734. Have you ever been in the infirmary ?—Yes, three weeks at Christmas time. Afterwards I went to the German Hospital, and came out before Easter. 8735- Have you applied to any public body for help ? —Yes. 8736. Which body?-—I applied to a few gentlemen, and received no answer. 8737- But have you applied to any public body?—I did apply to the Hebrew Board of Guardians. My wife went, there,, and she was supported for four weeks with from IQs. to 15s. a week when I was in the hospital. When I came out they gave me £2, and at the same time that I was there the brokers were sitting in my place, and when I came home with that £2 I had to think whether I should be chucked out in the street with my family, or whether I should give it to the land- lord for the rent. My wife went again to the board of guardians, and they sent her to the workhouse with the children. My wife was crying, and she said, My husband has been working hard and paying his rent, which I can prove by my rent-book. (The witness pro- duced a rent-book.) These pawn tickets will also prove *wfet I have had to da. {Producing a number of pawn- tickets-) 8738- What hopes have you for the future, or what resources have you?—Nothing. I went to Mr. Cohen when I eame out of the German Hospital, and asked him what I should do, and he said: "You are looking very well, you can go on and try to do something.7y I had two certificates from the doctors, and one has been kept by the board of guardians, and one I sent to Mr. Lundhurst. Last week I sent a letter to- Mr. Lundhurst and asked him to send me back th© certificate, but he did not. 8739. You have no resources, and nothing to look forward to-?—No. 8740. If your health should unfortunately break down and prevent you from working, what will hap- pen to you?—I will try to support my family, so that I shall not be chucked out in the street in the 24 July 1902 future. Besides that, I owe the landlord seven or eight weeks rent, and he was security to me for £6. He is a very kind man, and he has helped me in the house. 8741. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not quite under- stand what is your object in giving evidence here to-day?—I was advised to come. 8742. What do you wish to prove ? Do you wish to prove that you are in very distressed circumstances ? —That is my proof. (Referring to the pawntickets.) 8743. And if things go on as they are going on what is going to happen to you?—I do not know. 8744. Are you going to the workhouse ?—If I am chucked out into the street I am persuaded to do so. 8745. Have you applied for relief to your own people?—I was applying all the winter. 8746. (Lord Rothschild.) You have been to the Jewish Board of Guardians?—Yes. 8747. And they helped your wife when you were in the hospital ?—-For four weeks. 8748. And they gave you £2 when you came out? —Yes. 8749. Have you been to them again?—I went when I camn from the German Hospital. Mr. Cohen said, " If you do net fetch your certificate again we cannot help (Lord Rothschild.) All I can advise you is to go to the Jewish Board of Guardians again, and they will investigate your case. I am told the Jewish Board of Guardians offered to send you and your family back, and to give you the means of starting on your arrival home, and they are perfectly prepared to do that now. 8750. (Chairman.) What do you call your home? Is it Roumania ?—My home is here. My children were born here, and where can I go? I am a stranger elsewhere. 8751. (Mr. Norman.) How many "children have you? —Four. 8752. (Chairman.) You want to stop here? You do not want to go back to Roumania ?—No. 8753. If the Jewish Guardians offer to send you will you go?—Where shall I go? What can I do there with my children? 8754. You do not wish to go back to Roumania?— No. ' 8755. (Lord Rothschild.) I will undertake if you go to the Jewish Board of Guardians on Thursday next that they will look into your case and see what can be done for you?—I thank you, my Lord. Mr. James William Gills 8756. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are resident in the Stepney borough?—St. George's-in-the-East. 8757- The municipal borough of Stepney ?—Yes. 8758. And the St. George'sin-the-East Parliamentary DlYisEQB ?—Yes- 8758- Hw long have you lived there?—Eighteen years myself, resident. 8760- What is your business ?—Undertaker. 8761- During those 18 years you have noticed a change in the population?—Yes, very great. 8762. Have you suffered yourself personally from that change ?—I have. 8763. How?—I have given £350 for my business, and worked very diligently for three years. I had iso borrow the £350, having lost my all in Balfour's i&topanies,. I worked very diligently, and very hard, and oftentimes stinted myself to pay off my loan, I have paid now £300 out of £350 in three and a half years, and I have a notice here from my landlord to, qmt i»P six months. That makes me £700 out of pocket, and I have to walk out of my house, and say good-bye. ee, called ; and1 Examined. j yy Gillmore. 8764. And out of your business?—Yes. - 8765. Who is this man who is turning you out?— The letter is in the hands of the secretary of the Commission—Mr. Donn, of Prince's Street, Spital- fields, is the name. His agent is Bernstein, of Green- field Street. 8766. He has given you notice to quit, on what grounds?—-He wants the premises. 8767. Do you attribute this directly or indirectly to alien immigration ?—Exactly. 8768. Why?—'Because he is a Russian Pole. 8769. He goes by the name of Donn?—Yes. 8770. How do you know he is a Russian Pole?— I glean it the same as other people. 8771. Have you ever seen him ?—Yes ; but never since he has given me notice. Since this notice has been given to me through the agent I have' never seen Mr. Donn. I have consulted with the agent, and he said: "You must see my master," and I cannot see his master. 8772. But, meanwhile, you are to be turned out of your business?—Yes, and suffer £700 loss.<294 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN 1 IMMIGRATION : Mr*, J. W. 8773. How long has your family owned this busi- JPG0mor^ nessP—Ninety years—Fox and Sons, of Cable Street, is the name of the firm—my uncle. July .1902. 8774. Do you regard yourself as one, or an example of many who have been turned out in this way?— In have come here 100 miles to-day to represent the cause,, and specially to attend this meeting, because I have felt it has caused me to be a ruined man for the present. I have £50 to pay to a very good friend Of inine to clear off the £350, and instead of my get- ' ting on nicely with the business, as I have done be- fore, I get this notice'. 8775V (Mr. Lyttelton.) Where is the £700 loss ?— I gave £350 for the business ; I paid £300 in 3^ years, and I put my business as worth £700. 8776. What did you pay the £350 for ?—I had a loan of £350 ; I worked hard, and I paid in 3^ years £300, and that leaves a balance of £50. 8777. What is the other £350?—That is the value of my business. 8778. (Chairman.) The goodwill?—Yes. Unfortu- nately I shall not be able to pay the other £50. 8779. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You, in fact, say that you are on the brink of ruin owing to these people flooding in here ?—Yes. 8780. (Chairman.) What is the name of the land- lord who gave you the notice ?•—Donn. 8781. How many years have you been in the busi- ness ?—I have been resident manager for my deceased governor for 18 years. 8782. In these very premises?—^ these very pre- mises. 8783. Who was your landlord when you went in? —The property belonged to two maiden ladies, and the proceeds went to support an orphanage. At their death, it came to Mr. Seroy, a nephew, in Australia, and that gentleman came over and put the property up for auction, and it was purchased by this land- lord. 8784. When-was that?—About two months ago. 8785. (Sir Kendm Digby.) Did you get this notice at once, or was there any demand for increased rent ?— No, simply the notice. 8786. (Mr. Vallance.) How did you hold the pro- perty, was it on a lease ?—*It was a yearly tenancy ; I had an agreement previously. 8787. But when you agreed to take the business at £350, what was your, tenure then?—I had a yearly agreement. 8788. (Mr. Norman.) Why do you think the land- lord wants you to leave ?—-I should like to know myself; I am anxious to know. 8789. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Your family have been there for 90 years, you say?—Yes—my uncle. 8790. Carrying on this business?—Yes ; he is known all over England. 8791. So far as you know, it was always a yearly tenancy?—'Always; because the proceeds of this pro- perty went to support an orphanage. 8792. Up to recently, has a yearly tenancy been regarded as a secure basis for your tenancy ?—Oh, yes. 8793. (Chairman.) The notice yom received appestnr* to be from :some solicitors named Gane and Kilner, of Great St. Helens, E. C., and they act " as solicitors, and agents for Mr. John Donn"?—Yes. 8794. You have assumed, or you said somebody told you, that Mr. Donn is an alien ?—Yes. ; 8795. What cause have you for saying that?—-Simply because I heard how long he had been over here— some 10 or 15 years. I do not know the man per- sonally, but I should like to see him. 8796. What would you do with him if you saw him?—1 should like to see him and have satisfaction. 8797. You have heard that he has been here 10 or 15 years ?—Yes. 8798. He is not one of the alien immigrants who^ have come in lately ?—He could not be. 8799. You do nob know anything more of him ex- cept what you have heard?—No. 8800. Then, as far as we are concerned, the whole of your evidence is that somebody, whom you have heard was a foreigner, who came over here 10 or 15- years ago, has given you notice to quit your house? —Yes. 8801. Why he wants you to go, you do not know,, do you ?—Oh, yes, I do ; but, unfortunately, I have to quit according to the notice. . 8802. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What sort of a place i& it?—I have a shop in the main street, and I have very large premises in the rear, which come to about £84 a year. 8803. They would be business premises, I suppose T —Yes, I use them for stock. Suppose this (describing} is Cable Street, and this is Spell Street, my shop is the third shop from the corner, and this is the ground behind the five shops, and, of course, they can utilise that. A surveyor came, and looked over the premises, and he said: " You can put two houses here"; and, therefore, they do not want me in my place. 8804. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is the alien and foreign population increasing in this neighbourhood I —Too severely, unfortunately. 8805. Immediately round where you are ?—Yes ; my fellow-neighbour just recently moved out, and before' many hours there were three families putting wains- cotting upon the damp walls, and occupying the house before it was repaired. 8806. Your point is that your case is one of many similar cases?—It is. 8807. In which the native population has been* turned out and the alien population has come in ? —Yes. 8808. That is going on all round you?—Yes. 8809. (Chairman.) "Was there any request to yom to pay an increased rent, or anything of that kind, or was it simply that you had notice to quit?—No, I had the notice ; but I cannot get satisfaction. 8810. Was there any demand to you to pay increased rent?^That letter is all I received. I have asked the agent, but I can get no satisfaction whatever; I have been to the house, and there has been nobody there who will see me. 8811. You cannot even see Mr. Donn?—No. Mr. «7. Francis. Mr. James Francis, called ; and Examined. 8812. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You live at 40, Can^ non Street Road, St. George's ?—Yes. 8813. What are you by trade?—A haberdasher and I keep a sub post-office. 8814. How long have you lived in this neighbour- hood?—I have lived in the neighbourhood of Cannon Street Road and Cable Street 4'5 years ; I was born in Nelson Street, at the corner of Commercial Road, 47 years ago, within 500 yards of this building. 8815. Have you been a member of any public body here?—I was a member of the old vestry here for five years. 8816. Before the borough council came in?—Yes ; it ceased on the installation of the borough council. 8817. Have you suffered loss(in your business 7—Con- siderable. 8818. Owing, as you say, to the immigration of foreigners ?—I have. 8819. Have you any proof of that ?—I have drawn up a statement for the years, 1892, 1896, 1899, 1900, ana 1901 for the inspection of the Commission (producing the statement.). 8820. This statement begins with the year 1892?—- Yes. 8821. And shows a sum of "£365 13s. 2d."; what does that represent ?—^Those were the gross takings. 8822. In 1896, four years afterwards, the gross tak- ings were £193 9s. 6d. ?—Yes. 8823. In 1899 the takings were £142 2s. 2d. P—Ye** - 8824. In 1900 they were £114 6s. 8d. Yes. 8825. And in 1901 they were £97 2s. 6d. 7—-Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE# 295 8826. What do you attribute that to?—I attribute at to the influx of these foreigners. I am one of the few Englishmen left in the street now. 8827. You have lost your customers?—My customers are driven away. 8828. And your trade has gone in the manner you 3iave shown?—Yes. 8829. Your customers having gone, it means a great displacement in the neighbourhood round there ?—Yes ; they; will not deal with me, and I cannot serve them. 8830. Their tendency is to deal with one another?-— Yes, their own shopkeepers. 8831. Why do you say you cannot serve them; do they come in to be served ?—They are such a nuisance when they do come in; they bate you down ; they come in for a penny thing, and want it for a halfpenny. 8832. They bate you down?—Yes; and they do it •even in the Post Office. 8833. Do they want a penny stamp for a halfpenny ? —Well, I had a parcel to send away to-day for one of the Jewish children, who is away at Battle on the Fresh Air Fund; it weighed over lib., and I said • "4d."; she says "No, 3d." 8834. The condition of the neighbourhood was not Tery good years ago, I suppose?—I had no complaints. I started in business in 1879, and I took an empty shop -at 77, Cannon Street, which grew up, but then I had 1 to move when there was a lot of property displaced by the railway company; so I had to start business prac- tically afresh at No. 40 in 1891, and I very nearly main- tained fny old position ; but I have lost a lot of cus- tomers. 8835. I was not referring to your business so much— the tendency of my question was the condition of the people in this neighbourhood ; they were then largely English working class people ?—Respectable people. 8836. Some respectable and some not respectable, I •suppose ?—Mostly respectable. 8837. Was there overcrowding and that sort of thing in those days?—Nothing t-o speak of; we never had questions of that kind thought of then. 8838. You say, whatever the conditions were then, the conditions now are worse ?:—Largely. 8839. In the way of overcrowding, and so forth?— It is shocking now. 8840. In the way of the habits of the people ?—They jure disgusting now* 8841. In what way do you say their habits are dis-. .gusting?—-I should not like exactly to explain all the disgusting sights that I have to see from the back of my premises of my foreign resident neighbours round at the back—you do not see so much in front; but I do not like it, for the sake of my children, whom I have at liome. - 8842. To sum it up, and not to go into details, as they are not very pleasant, you say that there are sights and sounds in the yards round your house which are objectionable for your children and your wife to see? -—Yes ; it makes my heart bleed to think that the neigh- bourhood has come to such a pitch. 8843. Do you say that the people who have come in are bad in a moral sense ?—They seem to have no morals at all. 8844. But from a criminal point of view?—From what I see in the daily papers, what I see in my travels, and what I happen to know in the course of my busi- ness at the Post Office, I say there is great dishonesty amongst them. There are lots of them; go to prison under English names ; they travel the country—they do not confine themselves to the East End of London—to great gatherings, such as at the Crystal Palace and, the Alexandra Park, they traverse the country, and go to Cambridge, Margate, Birmingham, and Manchester. ,8845. How do you know that?—By their parents bringing parcels of food to my office to send away. 8846. In English names?—Yes ; very often they hand to: us letters written by the parents for us to address, and parcels, too, in various names, such as Jones, Fisher, Wright, and Ash. , 8847. The parents being foreigners?—Yes. 8848. Do you know the parents are foreigners from the way they speak ?—Yes. 8849. They can speak a little English, I suppose?— Very little; perhaps they cannot speak a word of Eng- Mri lish, and they will then bring a little boy to interpret. J. Francis. 8850. Do you know anything about the trade in illicit ^ j , i qqq spirits?—I have read a great deal in the papers, and ^ I have also been informed by my brother, who happens to be in the boot trade, and he tells me that there is a big business done in it. These foreigners would not go into a public-house to buy a bottle of anything, but they would buy it out of an old black bag for 2s., strong enough to pull the soles off your boofcs. 8851. What is " the old black bag " ?—They carry it round in an old black bag, these vendors of illicit spirits ; and they take it into shops and factories and sell it to the workmen. 8852. During your residence there you have been through several Censuses, I suppose ?—Yes. 8853. What is your opinion with regard to the figures taken in the Census ?—I have not taken much notice of the figures, because they are not reliable. 8854. What leads you to say that?—Because you can- not get the truth out of these people. A friend of mine and a neighbour, Mr. Tailton, in St. George's Street, a draper, was engaged on the last Census. 8855. Engaged as what?—As an enumerator, to col- lect the papers, to take the papers round and collect them. He told me that he found 52 persons in one house, No. 9, Cannon Street Boad. 8856. How many had he got on his Census paper? —-That I did not ask him. 8857. When he said 52 persons, was that in excess of what he expected ?—It was the total. 8858. Why do you say that you cannot get the truth if he found 52 persons ?—They did not give him any- thing like that number. 8859. When he asked them they gave him less P—• Yes. 8860. And he found 52 ?—He found 52. 8861. (Lord Bothschild.) He was an enumerator?'—He was delivering and collecting the papers. 8862. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to the feel- ing in the neighbourhood among your own people, is it strong with regard to this question ?■—It is very strong indeed ; and it is not only confined to English-born folks, but it exists also among English Jews and some of the old resident foreign Jews, who have been here for many years. 8863. The feeling against this influx is not confined to the Christian people at all ?—No. 8864. How do you know that? Have you got friend* among the English Jewish people?—I have friends among all nations in St. George's-in-the-East, and I equally respect them; but these latest importations I cannot respect. 8865. You say English Jews object to these people coming?—I have heard them frequently, both in con- versation in my shop, or at the club, or in the corner pub., talk about it, and say, " What shall we do ?" 8866. With regard to the influx of these people?— Yes; these people are crowding them out and making them suffer from the increased rents, the same as other folks. 8867. All classes?—Yes. 8868. Jew and Christian alike?—Yes. 8869. There was and, I suppose, still is a large English-Jewish population about here?—Oh, yes, but nothing compared with what it used to 'be. 8870. They have gone away?—Yes, they are disgusted if they get some of these folks as neighbours—they move away, perhaps out of Princes Square, where we have a lot of respectable English Jews living; they have moved out Dalston way, and out to Hackney; a tremen- dous lot go out that way. 8871. Their place has been taken by these foreigners ? —Yee < where one man had a house to himself, there are half-a-dozen or eight families in it now. 8872. To sum up your evidence, you say that it is a hardship upon the people displaced, both Jew and Christian, and a great hardship upon yourself per- sonally, inasmuch as you suffer and have suffered heavily in your business?—Yes. 8873. (Mr. Vallance.) I understand that your justi- fication for stating that the Census returns were not296 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. J. Francis. 14 July 1902. reliable was that your friend, the enumerator, found 52 persons in one house?—Yes. 8874. Have you any reason for supposing that that enumerator did not return in the schedule the 52 persons ?—I could not answer for that; but I will see him on the subject, and report to you at your next meeting. 8875. He discovered the 52 persons?—Yes, he came and told me that as one of the incidents he had found in his quarters. 8876. Have you any reason to suppose that the 52 persons were not included in the schedule ?—I am sure they were not put down on the paper as the number occupying the house on that night. 8877. Do you mean that the public enumerator did not discharge his duty by returning the 52 ?—I could not say that; I think he did, but I would not like to say, because when he told me of this he was hurrying' away, and it was a parting shot that he spoke to me about. I will endeavour to see the young man, and get some more information. 8878. The instance you have cited is that of an enu- merator who was sufficiently alert, in spite of the state- ment by the occupier, to enumerate 52 persons?—T& discover that there were 52 persons there. 8879. That return would be reliable?—Yes. 8879. Have you any ground beyond that for saying that the returns are not reliable ?—No ; but I know ike «lass of people so well. We have had to deal with them in our visits sometimes for sanitary purposes, when the Sanitary Committee have been making visits; and I have heard from my own personal doctor his stateimeBit of how many persons will occupy one room wheB. tliey have said there have been only two there, and Hie doctor has told me that he has seen 10 there, 8881. {Chairman.) One of the witnesses who was called here, Mr. Johnson, took the view that the Legis- lature should shut out all aliens for the future, but lie would be satisfied to allow the aliens now living in Stepney and its neighbourhood to remain ; do you think the locality can bear the burden of the present aliens who are here remaining as they are ?—Yes. 8882. You would be satisfied to let them stop?—Yes; they will mend and improve their ways if they are allowed to remain ; but something should be dene to •top others. Mr. . Faber. 8883. (Sir Kenelrn Digby.) What carrier for John Knight. 8884. What part P—White Horse Street. 8885. Is that a street where there is a large foreign population ?—Not so much down that way. It is more towards this way. 8886. Were you in business on your own account at any time?—Yes, up to three years ago. 8887. What sort of business had you?—A fair busi- ness. I got a living for myself for 18 years, and I worked for my brother beforehand. 8888. You were 18 years on your own account as a milkman ?—Yes. 8889. What was the state of the neighbourhood? Were your customers chiefly English people or foreigners ?—They were English people. 8890. In former times?—Yes, up to about, I might gay, seven years ago—between six and seven years ago. 8891. What change was there ?—These foreign aliens seemed to get into the houses, and I would serve them for a week or a couple of weeks, and then they told me they did not want any more of me. 8892. Why was that?—They had their own people to call on them. 8893. Have many foreigners gone into the milk trade?—Yes, a great number. I might say 30 now are going about with barrows. 8894. Are those foreigners who have recently come, or have they been here for a considerable time?—I should say they have recently come. 8895. Ho they take up that trade now, and go into- that trade in a short time after their coming over here ? —Yes. 8896. Do they work on their own account ?—On their own account. 8897. Not for other people?—No. 8898. You say you were in a good way of business ?— I was in a fair way of business. 8899. What became of your business?—It dwindled down so, that I had to sell it to Mr. Knight. 8900. And you are now working for Mr. Knight?— Yes, he put another round with it. 8901. Is he in a large way of business ?—Yes, he has got about 12 barrows running and four wholesale vans. 8902. Where does his custom lie principally?—Prin- cipally by Stepney Church. 8903. What is the population of that part?—They are not so particularly aliens that side. 8904. Is his business near where the foreigners were ? —It came down about as far as Jamaica Street. The rounds vary, but^ none of his business came much further than Jamaica Street. John Faber, called; and Examined, are you?—A milk 8905. His business is not much interfered with?— Not so much as mine was. He feels it, I daresay, a bit. 8906. Had you any other business besides milk?— Yes, my wife had a little fried fish shop. 8907. Where was that?—That was left me bj my mother, and after my mother went out of it my wife took it over. 8908. How long ago?—It would fee about ten year* back when she took it over. 8909. What has become of that?—We have had to shut it up. 8910. Why?—We could not get any custom there,, since these foreign aliens have come over. We shut that up 18 months to two years ago. 8911. Do not they deal with fishmongers ?—They deal with you first of all, but there are so many of these foreign provision places that sell almost everything, fish and all, that they go into them. They call them foreign provision stores, I think, ^ 8912. Really, the trade has gone to these larger pro- thingS foreiSn alien Jews, and they sell every- 8913. And the small people have been rather crashed! out, I suppose ?—That is so. 8914. Is there anything else you wish to say?—All I can say is, that I have been ruined by them. I We had to sell my round, and have had to go to- work at a much reduced rate to what I was getting there. Where I am getting now £1 a week, I was getting next door to £2 the other way. 8915. When you were on your own account?—Yes, I have got two or three children to look after mow. 8916. (Chairman.) You attribute it entirely to the alien immigration and the number of foreigners coming in?—Yes. & 8917. (Major Evans-Goraon.) You have lost your chs^- tomers ?—Yes. 8918. And your business has gone to nothing ?—Yes. I had to sell it three years ago last ApriL 8919. Whereas, you were a fairly well-to-do man, you are now very poor ?—Yes, I have to support more now than what I had then, because I have got two or three children now, which I had not got then. 8920. You have got two or three more children, and less to support them on ?—Yes. 8921. (Mr. Norman.) Are there other men in your position who have suffered as you have in similar posi- tions ?—I know a man named Edwards, in Bedford Street, who had to sell his business to the Cream Dairy, in New Road—he got so much in debt. He had a very large business, too, but he had to sell it to clear up hm debt. 8922. You do not regard yours as an exceptional case? —No, not exactly so.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 297 8923. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You live in Jubilee Street, I understand?—Yes. 8924. Not in White Horse Lane, but you live in JTubilee Street, and work for a master in White Horse Lane?—-Yes, and there are nine of theSe foreign Jewish provision shops in Jubilee Street where there were none before. 8925.' (Mr. Lyttelton.) What did you get for your business?—It came down so, that I only got £4 for it. 8926; (Lord BotJischild.) Do you know Cave's Dairy? —Yes. 8927. Mr. Cave is an Englishman?—Yes. 8928. He keeps 40 cows?—Yes. 8929. It was just opposite your old shop ?—Yes. 8930. Do you know Mr. Handsley ?—Yes. 8931. He is an Englishman, too?—That is a com- pany, I believe. 8932. That was a, few doors from you ?—That was some doors higher up. • 8933. There was another English dairy at No. 210? —That is a dairy. . 8934. There* were three English milkmen, and they did compete with you, and help to ruin you, or was it only the foreigners ?—Only the foreigners, because I did not particularly depend on what I sold in the shop. I had a milk round. The other was a fish shop what my missus looked after, and I had my milk round. 8935. These three milk shops injured your trade, I Mr. suppose ?—Not those shops. It was these foreign aliens J. Faber. that I tell you of. It is my round that has been ruined. 8936. Yours was not only a milk trade, but you sold a variety of other things in the shop besides milk ?— We sold sometimes a few minerals. 8937. (Chairman.) You sold your business about 3^ years ago ?—Yes. 8938. When did it begin to fall off ?—I should think nearly seven or eight years ago. 8939. Most of the aliens have come in since then?—. They have come in with more abundance since then. 8940. (Major JEvans-Gordon.) Where did you get your milk from when you ran your trade and had your round ?—I dealt off Mrf Burley, in New Road. 8941. At the time when you were going your milk round, these three English shops that Lord Rothschild has mentioned were in existence?—They were in exis tence. 8942. So that you were able to carry on your business at the same time that they were ?-—Yes. 8943.. Because you had a round and not a shop?— Yes. 8944. The way you suffered was, that people who dealt with you left the neighbourhood?—Yes. 8945. That is how you felt it?—Yes. 8946. They have been replaced by people yho di£ not deal with you?—Yes. 24 July 19C Mr. William Walker, called; and Examined. 8947. (Mr. Vallance.) Are you now living at 23, Stepney Green ?—Yes. 8,948. At the present time you are not in business? ? —No, I am a caretaker. 8949. But you have been in business?—Yes, I was in business two years and' five months ago. Some ten years ago I took a shop in Jubilee Street as an iron- monger and tinman. , 8950. Did you acquire that business by purchase ?— No, I opened it arid fitted it up. 8951. You made the business ?—Yes. 8952. You had that business some years, had you not ?—Yes, eight years. 8953. That was up to about 16 months ago ?—Yes. 8954. Were you making a fair profit?—At the begin- ning I was taking something like £12 per week, and doing the work nearly all myself with a boy. I worked from 8 o'clock in the morning till 11 and 12 at night for eight years in that place. 8955. When did your business begin to diminish?— About two years af£er I was there. I was there some 12 months, and whilie at church on Sunday morning was robbed. That was the beginning of my failure, and gradually my business went down as the foreigners ,,came in. You could see them coming in in van loads with their little bits of furniture, and the English people were crowded out one after the other. 8956. Your takings diminished, until about 16 months ago you were obliged to relinquish business alto- gether ?—Iwas obliged to leave my business, and at the .finish I sold it for less money than it cost me to a Jew. I called my creditors together, and I divided every farthing of what I had amongst them, and I undertook my present situation at 15s. a week, which is all I have', with the rent and coals in. 8957. Do you mean you sold your business for less than the stock cost you originally—is that what you mean ?—That is what I mean—-there w;as no goodwill. 8958. You attribute your failure in business entirely to the increase of aliens P—Yes, entirely to that. 8959. The aliens coming into the district, would, like other persons, require ironmongery, would they not?- Yes, and enamelled saucepans. They are very fond of those things, and they use them. 8960. Where would they deal for their ironmongery? —Down Petticoat Lane as'a general rule—damaged wood's suit them. ° ° 6144. 8961. They deal with aliens?—Yes, aliens deal with aliens. I knew some very respectable English Jews, and some of them were very kind indeed and good to me. 8962. When you disposed of your business, were you able to dispose of that to an Englishman ?—No, I never could get the English to take the place. 8963. And you disposed of your business to an alien ?— To a Russian Jew. 8964. Did he carry on business on the same lines as you had done ?—He did before his house was taken down in, Brady Street for Mann's Brewery, and he came into a little nioney for recompense, and he was enabled to go right away quiet. He used to do some tin work. I am not a tinman myself, and I used to take to him many hundreds of jobs from Jubilee Street to Brady Street to earn 2d. That I did for eight years to pay my way. 8965. You speak of the effect upon yourself and your business of the increasing immigration of aliens ?_- Nothing else. 8966. To that alone you attribute your failure ?_Yes. 8967. What has been your observation in regard to the habits of these people?—They are dirty and filthy and disgraceful in an English country. I went out yes- terday morning to my church, and I saw a man going- along with a bath on his back and tin kettles in his, hands plying for work. If you go to the Mile End Road you will see a glazier with his glass on his back walking the streets. I think that foreigners, if they come here, should pay some respect to our Sabbath. If you were to WWe I live now, it is like a rabbit warren, with the children m the street climbing over our iron gates in front, and in Jubilee Street, where I lived, they chuck the fish heads over the yards, and the fish guts stink and it is altogether disgraceful and disgusting. ' 8968. Have you found that those objectionable habits, have been confined to those who have entered the countrv recently ?—I have; the Polish Jews. 8969. Where they have been here a year or two, have- they improved in their habits ?—That I could not say. I think they do improve a bit, more or less. We shali turn them from their dirty habits in time. 8970. Do you desire to say anything with reference to. the question of overcrowding ?—Yes. You can go to a greengrocer's shop in Jubilee Street; there is a littler back room adjoining the shop, and underneath a cellar, and you will find four or five families living in it. Thev can afford to pay a little more rent when they ark crowded like that. They are like bees in a beehive, and if Englishmen were to do it they would very soon be: lugged up. Pp W. Mr. Walker,298 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. 8971. The alien is enabled to pay his rent by reason 8975. Those were English Jews?—Yes. Wf. Walker. of the possibility of overcrowding ?—Yes. (4 Julv 1902. 8972. If it were not for the overcrowding, he would --not be able to pay the rent out of his wages ?—No. I do hope, if it is possible, that our Sabbath may be looked a little bit to. 8973. (Chairman.) As to the Sabbath, taking Petti- coat Lane, there is a good deal of trading going on there on Sunday, is there not ?—I have known it for years and years, but not so much now as 60 years ago. 8974. Trading went on there on the Sunday before the alien immigrant came into the countrv at all?—Yes. 8976. They were not foreigners?—No. Then they were confined to Aldgate alone almost. Now {here is no end of them in Whitechapel, Mile End. It is Jerusalem. 8977. There are a good many others who do not keep the Sunday—for instance, men go out bird-catching?—• There always were, and always will be, I am sorry to say. If they studied their own interests it would not be so. - 8978. But they do break the Sabbath?—They have done so for hundreds of years. Mr. S. J. Pearce Samuel James Pearce, called; and Examined. (Lord Bothschild.) Would you explain to the Commission what you have to say with regard to th^ mineral water trade, which I think is your trade ?—Yes. I am here this evening to explain the competition in that trade. Here are two bottles (producing a large and a small bottle of mineral water). This is a bottle of lemon- ade made by Smith at Id. a bottle (referring to the small bottle), and this (referring to the large bottle) is made by the aliens for id. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is it the same thing?— Yes, but you must understand these large ones are made in cellars and next to water closets, and these small bottles are made in a respectable place. This small one pays a fair rent and a fair wage, while the men whcj make these large ones are getting at the rate of lis. and 12s. a week, and work from 7 o'clock in the morning until 9, 10, or 11 o'clock, or until such time as they havei done. Then I can show you a little bit about the bakery trade (producing two loaves of bread, small and large size). You must understand, gentlemen, I am here this evening to represent the British workman. I was born in the City and apprenticed in the City, and my father was a citizen, and now I cannot live near the City. Why ? Because I canot afford to pay £1 a week, out of £2, for rent. 8981. (Lord Bothschild.) Do you mean in the City of London?—Yes; but I cannot get anywhere near the City, and I have to live in Wapping. I am requested to come here this evening on behalf of the British Brothers' League, which I belong to. My fellow-workmen, know- ing that' Lord James is now sitting in the chair as a friend of the working man, have asked me to come, and I am going to apply to him, if he will, to try and protect ns. You have produced two pieces of bread?—Yes, and I will show you the difference between the two. Here is a ^d. roll, English made (referring to the small loaf), and this is from a Jewish shop (referring to the larger specimen). The shops are within a stone's throw of one another. This English-made one is half the weight of the alien's bread, which is also sold for Jd. 8983. You say the bread in the Jewish shop weighs twice as much as the English?—Yes, twice as much asi this; English roll does; but you understand me that the rate of wage is far lower in the Jewish shop than what it is in the English bakery. 8984. The customer prefers the bread that is made in the Jewish shop because he gets more for His money?— Yes. 8985. And it is just the same with the lemonade ?— Yes. 5. Your point, I understand, is that the alien can give more, bread and more lemonade to his customer be- cause he pays a lower wage to the workman ?—Yes. 8987. And a lower rent too ?—The alien pays more rent directly, but indirectly he does not. I can give in- stances of overcrowding in places I have been to wherq there have been 30 and 40 sleeping in a small area, which I can prove. I went after a house myself in Jamesi Street, and I lived there some years ago. 8988. You say the alien can give, more bread and more lemonade on account of overcrowding ?■—Yes. 8989. Is there overcrowding in the bakehouse?—Yes. In the house overhead there is, and also in the mineral -water manufactory. 8990. There is overcrowding in both?—Yes. 8991. I thought all the bakeries were inspected ?—Yes, I believe they are, but of a night time they want them inspected—you have to get up in the middle of the night. If you are there at 11 o'clock they are not abed. You want to be there in the middle ol: the night, as I have been myself. I am not an official—I wish I was. Then I can give you some instances of rack-renting and key money. 8992. Now that I have asked you one or two ques- tions, perhaps you will make your own statement as you wish to make it?—At No. 7, James's Place, they wanted 10s., where it was 8s. 6d. before, one small room up- stairs and one downstairs. 8993. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was that the house you went after yourself ?—I went after a house in James's Street, and I came across these cases of over- renting and key money. At 20, Samuel Street, Com- mercial Road, occupier H. Strongwater, the key money was £25, and the rent 21s., where it was formerly 8s. 6d. When I lived there, 11 years ago, in Samuel Street, the rent was 8s. 6d., it is now 21s. ; and the alien himself told me that he expected daily another 2s. to be put on his rent or else out he would go. At 22, Samuel Street, Commercial Road, occupier Marks Jacobs, key money £5, rent 23s., which formerly was 8s. 6d. I have many instances here, but it may not be worth while to read them all. 8994. Take an example or two?—At Langdale Court, Samuel Street, the key money was £3 5s. for two small rooms not large enough to swing a cat round in, and they were in a disgraceful condition. No. 3, Langdale Court, the occupier only paid 5s. key money, and she got off lucky. Then there is an instance at 3, James's Place, 8s. 6d. a week for two small rooms, but they were sublet to a Mr. Wenstowe, of Philpot Street; and-he used to let this house for 8s. 6d. There was a woman who took it of him, and she used to have lodgers. In the daytime they did not have proper room in Philpot Street, or rather he was not allowed to kill his fowls there; so he used the* yard in the daytime for killing his fowls; and I went inside and saw the blood on the walls where he used to kill the fowls, and it was in a disgraceful state. Then, in Palmer's Bow, Mulberry Street, Union Street, near where I was at*work, the over- crowding is something terrible. For the houses there 0calLafford t0 Pay £1, 25s., and 30s. a week for. Why. Because they take lodgers in there, as many as 20, 25, and 30; and, if they all pay Is. a week each— they can live there or sleep there at Is. a week—the landlord, or rather the sub-landlord, can afford to pay £1, where I cannot pay 10s. 8995. (Lord Bothschild.) You have mentioned over- crowding, do you know anybody who has ever dis- covered these 25 or 30 people in a room?—Yes, I have myself ; it has been in the papers ; and they have been fined from £5 to £8 in Union Street. 8996. Is there anything else you wish to say to the Commission ?—Only that I put it to you gentleman to look after us as working-men. The East End pf London, especially St. George's, at the present time is in a most disgraceful state. I hope, gentlemen, that you will look after us, for we shall not be able to live liere in another five years. That is all I have to say.\HNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 299 Mr. Walter Trott, called ; and Examined, 8997. :(;Mr, Lyttelton.) You carry, on business as a fruiterer and greengrocer ?—Yes. 8998. Where?—In. Burdett Road, Mile End. 8999. How long have you been in business there ?-— Ten years. 9000. Are you doing as well in business now as you were ?—No ; I did £150 a week 10 years ago, and I am doing about £30 now. 9001. £150 a week gross takings ?—Yes. 9002. Has the diminution in your business been spread gradually over the time ?—It has gradually diminished ; the trade is gradually going down. 9003. Not more at one time in those 10 years that at another period, but gradually all along?—Gradually coming down. 9004. I suppose, from what you have said, that you have lost a great many customers?—Certainly—English customers. 9005. Do you find that the aliens deal with you or not ?—-They do not deal with me. 9006. They deal with their own people ?—Yes. ,9007. Is it to the fact of the loss of your English cus- tomers that you attribute your decline in business?— Absolutely. 9008. Have you many aliens immediately round you ? —-There are a decent few now coming, and more are coming every day. If there is any house to let, they come and buy the key and take the place. The Jewish landlord is buying all the property there is about here. 9009. Have many Englishmen, left your immediate neighbourhood ?—Yes, they have gone to Seven Kings, Ilford, Upton Park, and Ilford Park. 9010. And they have been replaced by aliens ?—Yes. 9011. You go to market, do you not ?—Yes. 9012. Do the aliens frequent the market you attend? —If you will come along with me to-morrow morning, I will give you practical proof. You can see about nine in a bunch, one doing the talking and the others doing all the pinching. 9013. At what time should I come ?—At five o'clock in the mornimg, or at two o'clock in the afternoon. 9014. Will you describe it a little more ?—You can see them doing this (gesticulating)—dumb motion talk that I cannot understand. 9015. People doing business by signs?—Yes; they have one to do the talking and one to do the eating; they live on what they pinch. In our market the fruit is all oik show; and, while one is trying to make a deal, the others go round and say : " This is fine," " That is gocd," and all the time they are eating the stuff. They get half their living by what they pinch. 9016. Are your fruits and groceries spread out in the market ?—-All ours are on show in the market, except when you buy it under the hammer in the auction rooms. 9017. You do not permit people to take yours with- out paying ?—They take anything they get a chance of. 9018. Do they have much chance with you ?—They •always come in a bunch to buy our goods, and while one is buying, the others are stealing. If they buy a ha'porth, they pinch a handful; and if they buy six- penny worth of stuff, they want lib. in, because they have bought six-pennyworth. They have their barrows all round the streets, and have; their things all round their stalls, haberdashery, greengrocery, rotten goose- berries, and rotten cherries ; they only buy filth. 9019. Is there much feeling about it?—If something is not done, there will be a riot. Mr. TV. Troth 9020. Have you anything to tell us about Romford —•—- Market ?-—At Romford Market there are a lot of Jews who buy a lot of poultry in Romford Market; and, if you would go there next Wednesday you will see it for yourself. 9021. Romford in Essex ?—Yes ; it used to be a good poultry market at one time, and my father was one of the oldest dealers. It is no good going dow.ni there now, because the Jews have hagglers all round Essex, and as soon as they get & few fowls, no matter how old they are, they are on to them. 9022. H^ve you anything else to say?—-I consider that the ships they bring them here in should be dealt with. They will not allow them to land in America, and wo ought not to allow them to land here. I do not see any of them out in Africa fighting, and there are none of them in the Navy. I heard the statement made that they do not drink. No, they are too lousy to buy three-pennyworth of Scotch ; they make it. You never see an Englishman with an illicit still; an Englishman goes and has three-pennyworth. And people say we are a spendthrift nation, and we live on one another. I say let these Jews have an island to themselves, and let them live on one another. You cannot get anything out of them. 9023. {Chairman.) Do you know what a Zionist is ?— No, I do not know. You are preaching their doctrines without knowing it. 9024-25. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You are not in the costermongering trade, are you ?—I get my living in the gutter. 9026. That is costermongering?—Yes, I have a shop as well. 9027. You have a barrow, too ?'—Yes, stalls. 9028. We have had evidence as to the enormous number of these alien immigrants who make their living; in the streets ?—That is what they get their living by they will not do any hard craft. 9029. They are competing with the English coster and' ruining their living in the streets, you think?—They do not compete. 9030. What is it they do, then?—-They give their goods away; they can afford to do it. 9031. How is that?—When 30 or 40 live in one room and go out with their barrows, and in the night time live like rats in a hole—I cannot find words bad enough for them myself. 9032. (Mr. Norman.) According to you, it is only a question of time when your own personal business will be extinguished, because of this coming in of aliens?— Yes; that is the way they do it. They get their shops for nothing, but we have to give big premiums. 9033. Your personal experience is that it is only a question of time before your own business will be worked out?—Yes. 9034. Are you one of many, or are you an exception P —One of many. 9035. You said something about " hagglers" going round and buying fowls; they are called " higglers," are they not?—Yes. 9036. Do you say that that is a trade which is being taken up by aliens?—Yes. 9037. There are aliens going round in Essex?—Yes. 9038. Buying all the fowls from the farmers?—Yes. 9039. That is a new business for them to take up ?_ Yes ; they are in every business now. 9040. They have taken that up recently?—Yes. Mr Jo«n She ad, c 9041. (Mr. Norman.) You are a cabinet-maker?—Yes 9042. Where do you live ?—182, James Street, Mil© End. 9043. How long have you lived there ?—32 years. 9044. In business?—No, not in business. I am a journeyman cabinet-maker, but I worked for Biggs in Hudson Street. 6144. 3d; and Examined. Mr. 9045. Are you in business for yourself now?—No, I ^iea<^" am working at the West End. I was there for eight years right in the midst of it. 9046. What statement do you desire to make to the Commission about the cabinet-making trade ?—I can tell you the condition of the streets round there since the Jews have come in, and I can tell you tho the trade of the cabinet-maker is in. p p 2300 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION'. , Mrr .. J. Shead; 24 July 1902, 9047. With regard to sweating, do you mean?—Yes, most decidedly. 9048, Give us instances ?—An instance of that is this : in former times when we had export work to do we always picked out the best wood to stand the climate. Now at the present time these Jews are making the stuff out of egg or orange boxes, and they veneer it over with veneer at 4s. per 100 feet. They are passing it off for good work, and that is going abroad. I do not know what wili become of our export trade, for the work they are making at the present time will not stand so long as a match-box, and the price they are paying for it is something shocking, to what they used to. What they paid £5 15s. for they will now sell for £3 5s., wood and everything complete. It is injuring the trade, and it is finding its way kito shops where people would not expect it. In Tottenham Court Road you can see it, and it is sold to people for good work. 904©. Your point is that that will in time, when it is found out, seriously injure the reputation of the British workman in the cabinet-making business?—Certainly it will. It will spoil our export trade, and must do so eventually. 9050. Is it the case that British workmen have last their employment by the influx of these aliens ?—Yes, at the present time there are numbers on the society who would not have been, so if it had not been for these Jews selling the stuff in the way they are. 9051. Have you more in your society than other trade organisations in other parts?—That I cannot say. 9052. More in proportion?—I think we have. 9053. You did not lose your employment till the death of your employer?—No. 9054. Do you desire to tell the Commission anything about overcrowding?—The overcrowding is something disgusting. I have been in Bethnal Green now for 50 years, and I am about 150 yards out of it at the present time. I recollect all Spitalfields 50 years ago, when I was quite a boy, and my wife lived for years at 19, Mill Street. There was a public-house next door, and there was a beer-cellar. At the present time that is a bedroom and a living room for a Jew, and you can see there is a whole family in it. It used to be swarming with rats. Twenty years ago there was not a single Jew in the whole street, from end to end, but now there is not a house without one. 9055. (Chairman.) What street is that?—Mill Street Then, again, Hanbury Street, where I have been foi eight years, you could look out of our shop window and see them get out of bed—father, mother, two children, daughter, husband, and child in one room. It became so disgusting that my employer went and told them to put a curtain up. At that time there was one Board School for the English children, 20 years ago. Now at the present time there is another one built some seven years ago at the corner of Underwood Street, which is •close to it, and at the present time they have pulled down Trinity Church to build another one for them. Then take Grimmond Street. That street three years ago was all English from end to end, and there were 30 houses ; but they have been, bought up by Davis, and you will not see an Englishman in one of them now. Two soldiers, who went away to the front came back to see their family turned out of the place where they were bred and born, to make room for the Jews. 9056. (Mr. Norman.) Is there any other point besides this overcrowding and sweating you desire to inform the Commission about?—No. 9057. You speak from your own personal knowledge ? —Yes, I have had eight years' experience walking back- wards and forwards. 9058. (Mr. Vallance.) You spoke of the demolition of the Trinity Church for the purpose of the erection of a new school ?—Yes. 9059. Was it not a fact that there were also several houses demolished at the same time?—Yes, most de- cidedly, the whole square of them. 9060. That was a displacement of population?—Of course, it was. 9061. You spoke of the overcrowding. The over- crowding is occasioned not alone by adults, but by children ?—Yes, adults as well. 9062. And the larger the number of children over- crowding, the greater becomes the necessity for means of education ?—Most decidedly. 9063. So the erection of Board Schools and the condi- tion of overcrowding act and react on each other, and the erection of a school causes greater congestion of population?—Yes; eight weeks ago they brought up a van load of these aliens, and the man had lost their address; he put them down in the street, where, they were waiting on the pavement—between 20 and 30 men women, and children, and there were actually Jews themselves saying, " These are what they have sent over for us to keep." 9064. (Chairman.) You say the erection of schools causes overcrowding. Is that by clearing away the smaller houses ?—Yes. There is one house now in Pel- ham iStreet which has 30 rooms., and there are 30 families in it. 9065. (Major JEJvans-Gord-:n.) Have you seen these people arriving from time to ;ime during! the last few years ?—Yes. 9066. You have seen them personally?—Yes. 9067. Would you say that the class of aliens arriving now is better or worse than formerly ? Is it going down or going up ? About the same, as a rule. I cannot see any difference in fact, I think they are worse than what they were previously. You do see some a little bit different from others, but the most deplorable lot on the face of the earth come in. 9068. You see them shortly after they arrive ?_Yes. You can see them coming from the docks in van-loads ■ and they go to the Jewish Board of Guardians. This party had lost their ticket, and they were sitting on the steps for two hours. TWENTY-THIRD DAY. Thursday, 31s£ July, 1902. PRESENT : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman) The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. i if •» Major W. E. Evans-Gordon, m.p. | William Vallance, Esq. Mr. Mr" WlLLIAM Ambrose Rose, called; and Examined W. A. Rose. «*•**->A" ~ • «•— MBSVT"tel* 9070. You have lived i* the East End all your life ?_ 9079 ymi t m *• yp*. y i 7'tt ? fe,a Poor Law Guardian of the White- L^ chapel Union ?—Yes,MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 301 9073. How long have you been in that position ?— ;UTive years. 9074. During all the time that you fiave lived there you have seen many changes in the parish in which you have resided ?—Many changes indeed. 9075. In 1881 your were engaged in taking the • Census of a portion of St. George's ?—Yes. 9076. What district did you take the Census in?— 'The Census I took then was down Cannon Street Road along Watney Street, along Commercial Road, and I •forget the name of the (Street now, but I think it was 'Station Place. I have taken the Census four times. 9077. At that time what was the character of the •population?—The population then was purely English. 9078. And since then what is it ?—It is foreign. 9079. The portion you 'took ithe Census in is now ;almost entirely foreign?—Not only the portion, I took the census in, but the whole entire district from Back- > church Lane up to Cannon Street, and beyond it is now entirely foreign. I lived there as a -boy, and I know that then it was purely English. 9080. Just give us those streets where you say the igreat alteration has been?—I cannot mention the streets runless you give me the map. 9081. In addition to that, you have canvassed for elec- itions, have you not?—Always. 9082. In 1886 did you canvass—In 1886 I canvassed • the whole of the upper division of the North Ward west 'Of St. George's. At that time those I am speaking of vwere nearly all English. 9083. That same -sort of change has been going on in nthe Stepney .Division as well?—Yes, and the White- chapel Division too. 9084. In 1891 you helped to take the census in a portion of Whitechapel ?—Yes, that was in what is called Fieldgate Street now, but which was called Charlotte ^Street. 9085. What was the condition then in 1891 ?—Then it vwas half and half. -r 9086. The change was commencing to work in 1891 ? —Yes. ■ 9087. Did you assist in the census of 1901 ?—Yes, and the one before that, which was made by the County ^Council, I assisted in too. In 1901 I did a block there in Dunk Street (this was in Mile End New Town), Old ."Montague Street, Great Garden Street, and Hanbury ! Street. Thet population during my canvass there and •'from my knowledge of the place twelve years ago was ] Half English. Now it is almost purely foreign. 9088. You siay that the naitive pqpulatdon have' suf- fered owing to this influx?—Naturally. 9089. What class would you say has suffered specially ? -■—The people that I have seen disappear one by one are mostly the tradesmen. 9090. The shopkeeper class ?—Yes. 1.9091. They have 'tat their trade owing to the influx? -—-They have lost their trade simply because these people who have taken their place deal amongst them- selves, therefore our traders have had to go away, and good businesses, splendid [businesses, have gone. Some- body asked me to get a few names, and I have got a few names here of people whose ^businesses have been prac- tically ruined by it. Take fifteen years ago close within ..•a stone's throw of my house, there were four butchers—• .TlTrisby was one- 9091*. {Chairman.) Never mind the names.—HJaM 'Whitechapel Road has gone down, and there are people : in the same condition now going down. 9092. (Major (Evans Gordon.) Having to give up their businesses a^id go away?—Having to give up their " businesses and go away. 9093. And abandoning the results of their previous jlabours in their businesses ?—Yes. 4-. With regard to the class of people who have been displaced, it has been said in some quarters that the people who have'been displaced were a very rough -class of people?—I ishould like to deal with that by reference. I belong to the class that are displaced, and I do not want toi say anything against another class that "has come in and taken their place, but I should only like to' give it to you by reference. I will take you down to JlileEnd Old Town—say Howard's. (Buildings and Metro- politan Buildings. Look at the people who are living there. They are our people. Then cross over the road into Booth Street Buildings, and look at the people Mr. there, and then think for yourselves which is the best W. A. Boh. class. Then go into College Buildings in Whitechapel,-- and pass over to Wentworth or Davis's Mansions, and 31 July 1902. look again and see for yourselves which is the best class. Then pass over into Whitechapel, look at Preston Build- ings, and see our people there, and then go to Buck Street Buildings, and judge for yourselves. 9095. Among these people displaced there were rough people ?—So are the newcomers. We do not want to blame a class. 9096. But the majority of them were people of the respectable working class?—The majority of the people who have been displaced are the same sort of people who live there now—a hard1 working, decent clasts. 9097. Would you describe the feeling aroused in respect of this alien immigration ?—Yor. can just imagine it for yourself when people get turned out. I will give you an illustration from the street I live in. A man is living there all his life paying rent. There are two or three foreign friends—I will call them friends, for I do not want to call them foes—and1 they are after his house, and they get his house raised 4s. a week, and he has to pay it. Imagine what that would mean to you with regard to income. He is only a brass finisher. Our people are not philosophers, and we see these people taking our place, and one by one we are driven out. It causes a feeling, and the racial feeling I am sorry to say is very bad. You cannot go into a place without you hear all about the foreigners turning us out of our homes—even almost up to Bow. 9098. Is it true that this influx of aliens has been accompanied by an enormous rise in rents ?—I should think it has. Places which used to let at 4s. 6d. now let for 10s. 6d. In one year in the street I live in, two houses were raised—that is No. 30, and the hotise just opposite were raised 4s. peir week. Other houses were raised 2s. per week. Then take Derwood Street and Winthrop Street—two portions of English streets. The people who -had lived there had1 lived there for years. In eighteen months the English inhabitants there were clean wiped away, and they were occupied by aliens, simply because they were sold to another landlord, and he raised the rents 5s. on them, and they could not pay it. Amongst them was a widow, and it simply meant ruination to her. 9099. Is it not a fact that many of the English people must continue to reside in Stepney?—It must be so especially in the City. I can give you an illustration of that. We have not got tens or twenties, but we have hundreds of office women. I will take them first because they have been displaced here in St. George's. Their wages are on an average 9s. a week. They have to come backwards and forwards four times a day to the City to clean offices. They must live near their work. They cannot possibly help it. They have been displaced. Then there are the carmen—they have to get up at half- past four in the morning, and many of them are not done until half-past eleven at night. How far from their work can they live ? Then market porters, both of Bil- lingsgate and Spitalfields. They must live here. Then there are even policemen, and they must live here. Then' there are casual labourers, who hang about the docks, as it is called, for work. They 'have to live here. It is nonsense to tell these men they must go a long way away and come back. They must live here or el&'e they lose their time. 9100. The consequence is that the English people are crowded in a closer area ?—They are more pressed up, and they have to pay more rent. 9101. That leads to overcrowding of the native popu- lation?—Not only overcrowding, but it leads to in- decency. How can a working man with two or three grown-up children keep them decently if he is driven into two or three rooms? Ihey have little houses. The small houses are pulled down, and now they are obliged to go into these places. 9102. Regarding the position of these people Who arrive here, what is their condition financially ? Are they very poor people ?—-That I could not say from per- sonal knowledge, but I do not think the majority of them are poor people. Some of them whom I have can- vassed during my time have told me that tlhey have arrived here with money, and the money has either been stolen or taken from them by people, but the best of them, I think, come here simply to go abroad, and a great many people are robbed by their own friends, and are stranded here, and have to ek>p among our people.302 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. 9103. When you say go abroad, you mean go to Wi. A. Rose. 'America ?—Yes. 9104. The best ones go to America?—Yes, and we 31 July 1902. ge£ £k0 p00rest 0f them. 9105. I understand you to say the ones with money you think go on ?—Yes, I have been told so. 9106. And the tendency is for the poorer ones to remain here ?—They cannot help it. 9107. Do you know anything about the wages for which they work ?—No ; I simply know this, that I have helped them to form trades unions, and they have - formed trades unions. They have struggled in trades for an increase in their wages, and to do the best for themselves, but they have told me over and over again that the newcomers spoil their chance of getting a better wage—greeners, as they call them. 9108. What would you say is the effect generally of the residence of these aliens in the district upon the district?—It must have the effect the same as in any congested district, whether English or foreign or what- ever it may be. It must mean a depreciation, and making it bad for all working classes. 9109. The overcrowding leads to the poor respectable people living in the poorer streets ?—Yes, both English and foreign, and being overcrowded they cannot have decency or anything of the sort. They want it. Many a respectable man amongst them wants it, but he cannot get it. 9110. You say the discomfort and trouble and misery caused to the English people is caused also to foreign people ?—I say just as much. I have sat on the White- chapel Board of Guardians and listened to cases that would almost make you weep over—the discomfort and misery and sufferings of the poor foreigners. 9111.; Youi believe that they are cbntinually in- creasing ?—I am certain of it. 9112. And coming in in large numbers ?—It must be so. It is like the waves of the sea—they simply keep spreading, but they do not retreat like the waves of the sea do. 9113. What effect does this invasion of the aliens have, in your experience, upon the administration of the Poor Law?—It affects it both directly and indirectly. As far as my knowledge goes they apply principally for medical relief. That is one thing. They apply again, for they have to coime in ais pauper lunatics, and then there is a very large number of imbecile or weak- minded children amongst them. , 9114. These you have come across?—Yes, I have directly. 9115. Have you any return of the numbers that come before you ?—N-o, but the Board will supply them. 9116. You can call for a report?—Yes, if the Com- mission demanded it. 9117. You say they apply in large numbers for medical relief?—Yes, I should say certainly half of the applications for medical relief that come before us are from foreigners, and I should think there is quite half of the pauper lunatics who are foreigners, and then I should think that more than half of the im- becile children belong to foreigners too. That is the direct way in which they affect the Poor Law. 9118. And indirectly?—Indirectly I will tell you how they affect it. They affect it in this way, that we have been taught for the last 30 years thrift and saving. Those lessons have been taught to our poor at every board meeting, and everywhere they go by gentlemen whose interests I know are with the poor. But what is the use of teaching thrift if a man saves a shilling and is continuing to save a shilling, and the next week his rent is raised 2s. ? He has been saving half his lifetime. I can tell you of the case of Mr. Smith, of 30, Mountfield Street. He belonged to two benefit societies—a trades union and the Hearts of Oak. His rent was raised 4s. a week, and he could not keep it up; therefore, half his life's thrift was taken away from, him, and he could no longer belong to a trade society. I can tell you of dozens of cases where people are bound to give up their thrift and the society they belong to simply through raising the rent. 9119. When you say you teach them thrift, do you, as a Board of Guardians, try to teach them ?—We, as a board, try to do so. I do not individually, but the board try, and they" have been preaching it ever since Mr. Commissioner Yallance has been there. 9120. (Lord Bothschild.) I think you said you were a. packing-case makor ?—No, a carpenter. 9121. Do you still carry on that trade?—Yes, I still carry it on. The last thing I did was to make a stand, for His Majesty's Coronation. 9122. (Mr. Vallance.) You referred to certain streets, in which there has been considerable displacement of" the English native population by the foreign popula- tion. Have you in your mind a street which has been almost entirely displaced in that way?—Yes, two. 9123. Are those two near to you, and have you special experience of them?—Yes. 9124. Can you tell the Commission what the process. has been of the displacement of the tenants of houses, and the increase of rents?—-The houses in Derwood Street and Winthrop Street belong to the Tours family. The housss there for years and years were in the occu- pation of English people, all English people, down Derwood Street and Winthrop Street. 9125. How many rooms would there be in each of* tlheise bouises ?—I think two and' ®o>mie four. 9126. Would they be occupied, within your know- ledge, by one family ?—'Some would be occupied by one, and some by two within my knowledge. 9127. At all events these families were in self-con- tained tenements ?—Yes. 9128. When the displacement first took place, what was the process; how did it occur?—It seemed to me • that the rent was raised 5s. per week upon each house. 0129. We are dealing now with the question of alien immigration, and I want to ascertain if possible what the process was, how the foreigners came into the district, and what occurred ?—I do not know how the foreigners came into existence, but a gentleman of the name of Davis bought the houses, and he raised the rents 5's. per week, and our people could not pay it; (therefore, they bad tio 1'eiave, and in 18' months, where there were all English and Irish tenants, the houses became, especially in Derwood Street, where there were • those nice little cottages, populated by aliens. 9130. Tlbey were puircibaised by a niew landlord, and. be * at once by a stroke of the pen raised the rent ?—Yes, 5s. 9131. How is it that the foreigner could pay that increased rent, and the English tenant could not pay it?—That I am mot going; to say. 9132. Is there any connection between overcrowding and increase of rents ?—-As far as my knowledge of taking the Census is concerned, there is; but I should not accuse these people in Derwood Sttreet and Win- throp Street of overcrowding, because I have never been in the place, but where I have been to and where I have seen, there has always been overcrowding; too much of it. 9133. Do I understand you that the English working - man could not pay that increased rent if he is to occupy that tenement by his family and his family alone ?—• He could not pay it. 9134. Could the foreigner equally pay that increased rent if he did not resort to overcrowding ?—-In my ~ opinion, certainly not. 9135. (Lord Bothschild.) You have no proof of that? —No. 9136. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you been a member of ' the Vestry or the Board of Works?—I have been a member of the Whitechapel Vestry. 9137. Have you within your experience dealt as a public bodiy with this question Y)f overcrowding ?—• We have never dealt with it, because we were not an administrative body. 9138. You were one of the Vestry of Mile End New Town ?—Whitechapel. 9139. You were in that Board of Works?-—No. 9140. You had no experience ?—No, but as far as we took the census—ftlhiis is not oipiimibn, but it m a \ fact—the reason they are able to pay this extra rent is by reason of overcrowding. 9141. Bais there been any conlsiideraible congestion of population occasioned by the erection or extension of factories ?—If you ask my opinion, and this is an opinion again, there are quite as many dwelling-houses, taking them in the Parliamentary sense now in White- - chapel ais ever there were, but it is the influx from iMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 303 .abroad titoaft causes tins overcrowding. It almost follows that first of all we have handily got room for ourselves, ;and if yon alilow tlheise people from aibroiad to> cocme on to us, weaM suffer. It is always us Eaisit End worlkinig .men who suffer. If, for instance, we have no alien .immigration, we should have no overcrowding in White- chapel now. 9142. But still the increase of population has not 3b;een proportionate to the immigration of aliens ?-—You / mean the natural increase. 9143. Within the district which you are speaking of the increase of population has not been proportionate to the extent of immigration into the district, has it? —No, it has not; 9144. In the case of these aliens overcrowding in their tenements has anything occurred to you as to in what direction we should look for a remedy?—Yes, -several things have occurred to me. One is this : yoa •should carry out the sanitary laws and you should not permit overcrowding. 9145. Would it iri your judgment be possible to carry -out the saiiitary laws, and if they were so carried out with strictness and uniformity, would that considerably "relieve the situation ?—So far as insanitary masters are •concerned, yes. 9146. As far as overcrowding is concerned ?—I think 'three things should be carried out. You should carry out your sanitary laws. There should be room in the British Empire—and no doubt there is—for every desirable citizen. There is not in the East End of London. Therefore, you do not want undesirables, and you must shut them out. Secondly, you can help us, if you like, by fixing fair rents. 9147. On the question of labour, has there within your knowledge been any considerable displacement of English labour by the foreign immigrants?—I can- not say. 9148. You are. not prepared to say there have been any crowds of English labourers waiting for employ- ment, and who are in want of employment by reason of the foreign immigrants?—-I cannot say that, but I 'say this, that, assuming those foreigners had not been "here, Englishmen might have got a job. 9149. I have before me a return, with reference to the Whitechapel Union, of foreigners relieved during "the year 1901. I suppose you will accept these figures ? —Yes. 9150. It shows that a total of 721 in the year re- ceived medical relief, and of the 721, 536 re- ceived medical relief only—that means medicine and attendance—123 were admitted to the infirmary and *62 to the workhouse. You will accept these figures ? —Certainly. 9151. Of the 721, 605 were from Russia and Rutsisdiain Polandl Would you be prepared to &afy that these 721 would be in excess of the paupers relieved having i regard to the population ?—I should think so. It is as . hard for those poor people as it is for our people; it is hard for both. Why permit it to go on ? 9152. You have considered this question a good *deal?—I have. 9153. Have you formed any conclusion as ta what should be done to remedy it?—Yes, I was just telling . you ; carry out your sanitary laws and insist on people living decently in the houses. Do not allow the un- > desirables to come here, and—I know the Commission won't accept it—fix fair rents. If you fix fair rents, " there is no inducement for the landlord to turn out a ■ decent tenant. 9154. If I understood you aright in your judgment : if the sanitary laws were strictly enforced, the situation would be very considerably relieved?—I am certain -of that. 9155. Then you further say that the undesirables :should be excluded ?—Certainly, wherever they come from. 9156. How would you interpret the word "un- desirable " ?—I do not know whether we are wiser than ■ all the world, but it is simply this, and it is the same with your. guardians for the last 30 years, we have ".been trying, and I know you, Mr. Vallance, have too, "-to do away with pauperism, but what is the use of trying to do away with pauperism if you get foreign j\fft paupers. What is the use of your sending away two IV, A. Boh. of our people if you admit three of the others. --- 9157. (Lord BothscMld.) You would not give them 31 Julyi902; medical relief?—I would give them what they want; we are talking about admittance into the country. I should give those what I should give our own people; they are entitled to it. 9158. (Mr. Vallance.) But supposing the three are admitted into the country, how would you adjudicate upon them with regard to their admission ?—I should treat them the s'ame as you do. Tit is impossible for a lot of these poor people cooning intto the couariitiry to get a living. 9159. You appreciate the difficulty the Commission have to contend with, and the question is, first of all, who are the undesirables and how are they to- be ex- cluded ?—If ti^ey are in the country we do not want to exclude them ; they are . in the country, they belong to us, we have admitted them under our laws. 9160. I am speaking of the future?—Then surely we can do the same as other countries do. 9161. Would you be content if England did as other countries do ?—I should certainly say that nobody should come here who is an undesiraible citizen, any more than he should gio- to the Gape. 9162. (Chairman.) With regard to what you have said about fixing a fair rent, would you apply that to every tenement?—Every house. 9163. Every inhibited house ?-^-Every inhabited house. 9164. According to your view, do you want that in any particular area only, or throughout the country ?— Throughout the country, I should say; but I am only an East-Ehder, speaking for East-Enders. But surely a fair rent is a fair rent, wherever it is ? 9165. I want to know practically would you put any check to the area within which you would apply your new law?—Not at all; if it is a good law it can go everywhere. 9166. That is your idea, that as between all land- lords and tenants of inhabited houses a fair rent should be fixed by the State?—That is my idea.—not by the State at all, but by the local authorities. 9167. By some public body, and not leave it to the contract between two people?—May I give an illustra- tion? iFor insibairiice^ the Ohaiucellltoir of the Exchequer for some national purpose puts a farthing on a loaf; there is a great outcry from Dover to John-o'-Groats, but the landlord, for his own purpose, can put 4s. on his rent, and there is nothing saicl. Why? 9168. Because the Chancellor of the Exchequer puts the money on your loaf, if he ever did, against your wish, while you make the contract with the landlord to pay of your own will ?—Not at all. How do I mako the contract ? 9169. You need not make the contract unless you like ?—There is no contract in a weekly tenement. 9170. A man who is not a tenant need not be a tenant unless he likes ?—But he must be if he has to live near his work. S171. He must have a house %—You might just as veil say to me, " A man must not eat." I must eat. 9172. You would die if you did not?—I should say I should die without shelter. 9173. If you, did not take one house you would get another ?—I could not—not in the East of London. 9174. Then, you must limit it, really, if ft is a matter of compulsion. You said you wanted this ta apply to the whole country ?—I might be mistaken about that, but I say you want it down here. 9175. Should you put it that from the necessity that the tenant has of being obliged to go to these houses and the want of accommodation unless he takes the parti- cular house he is forced whether he likes it or not against his will to enter into a contract of tenancy ?—I conclude that whatever happens, we are bound to live near our work. There are plenty of men and women who are bound to live down here, and they cannot go beyond. It simply is the landlords putting upon them. 9176. If you wanted to carry this theory of yours, had not you better limit its application to places where there«J304 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : £ July 1902. Mr. is such a condition existing?—'I should very much like V:'A. Rose, to see it down here. 9177. I want to help you, but you said you wanted to see it all over the country ?—I did not say that. 7178. You did indeed ?—You asked me to limit it, but I said I could not. A proposition must be either true or false. If it is good for Ireland, then surely it is good for here. The application must be for the East End. 91791 You have spoken of a class of people, namely •these office cleaners, who earn about 9s. a week. Have ifrey been forced out by the aliens ?—Yes. 9180. Where have they gone to?—They have either gone away or have to come back and are packed up themselves. 9181. You say they are forced out and have had to come, back. Where have they gone to?—They have either had to go far away, and either had to walk back- wards and forwards or pay Id. tram fare, or they have ted to gio up to Bow, which is a terrible tax on them, and gives them ho time for the little bit of work they do in the day, or else they come back here' and are packed up in quarters where they should not be. ,9182. To their own inconvenience and expense, they have had to go further away, or there are more of them actually living in a room or house than there were before?—Yes. 9183. If rents are raised, that also makes more live in a smaller space, because they cannot afford to pay so much1 as they paid before ?—No, and they cannot afford to do what they have been told by both St. George's and Whitechapel Union to do, namely, to save. If a man has been saving 6d. a week and they put Is. on has reait he cannot save. What is the good of asking him to be thrifty ? 9184. You have no remedy to suggest except this fixing of a fair rent, but if you did that, that would not stop overcrowding ?';—Oh, yes. 9185. If you did not build more houses, fixing a fair rent would not stop overcrowding?—First of all, as I 'followed Mr. Vallance, we are going to carry out the sanitary laws, which say there must not be overcrowd- ing•' 9186. To pay a fair rent will not do it ?:—I did not say that. 9187. I asked you whether fixing a fair rent would affect overcrowding, and you said yes, but you did not mean it. The fixing of a fair rent in itself would not stop overcrowding ?r-^Not at all. 9188. The sanitary laws being in force would stop it ? —What I was putting to you was this : If a man has got a good tenant and getting a fair rent, and knows he cannot get any more, what advantage is it for him to turn the man out? 9189. But I want to deal with overcrowding to start with ?—In the great majority of the streets we have been speaking about, and the great majority of the people we have been talking about, there was not overcrowding. 9190. But I am talking of it as it exists now. I understand you very properly to say if you could impose .sanitary laws that said only so many people should live in a room with a certain space, and so many cubic feet of air, if that were carried out, then you would get rid of the overcrowding ?■—Yes. 9191. If you applied that sanitary law, and said that whereas now, say, ten people were living in a house and the sanitary law said only six: should live there, what would become of the other four persons?—They would have to live somewhere else. 9192. I am asking you about our difficulty—can they go , and live somewhere else if they have employment here ?—That I cannot answer. 9193. But you know so much more about this than w©* do?—But you are pulling down day by day these two- storey places and building up twelve-storey buildings- in their place ; surely that would solve that difficulty. 9194. That is another point that is practical, but if you think of it I am afraid more sanitary laws will n®t effect what we all want ?—-It will not re-house the people. 9195. Is there anything that you can suggest from your practical knowledge with regard to re-housing?—I do* not like to suggest barracks. We do not like barracks. 9196. Then I am afraid if we do anything to reduce^ the number of persons in the house to the proper num- ber we should be driving people out to go somewhere,, and they must take their chance ?—'But the principal objection of our people is this : why should we have to* go afield while the foreigner takes our place ? 9197. At the same time, you say you do not want the people out, and Mr. Johnson said he did not want to turn the people out who are here?—Those we must < make our own—we cannot turn them out. 9198. Is there not a great problem and a great diffi- culty that you say you cannot solve? If we limit the number of people in a house what is to become of the people who are turned out?—You can only Vuild barracks, my Lor-1. That is all I can suggest. 9199* That must be done by the local authorities and the rates ?—Yes, and the local authorities would own, them* 9200. They need not be entirely at the expense of the rates, because the people occupying them would pay rent ?—It would be a very good asset, because- they would pay for themselves in the end. 9201. {Major Evans-Gordon.) A question has been handed to me to ask you. You said that more than half of the imbecile chii'ldren were aliens ?—I said I thought so. 9202. Would you kindly tell us what part of the East End you were referring to ?—Whitechapel. 92031 You were speaking of Whitechapel only?— .Yes. 9204. (Mr. Vallanw.) Is that an impression you. have formed, or is it based on actual facts and figures ?— It is the impression I have formed. 9205. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You can get the actual facts and figures ?—Yes. The following particulars of the districts referred to- by witness were handed in : — Areas formerly occupied by British, now occupied by~ Aliens. Boundaries of First Area. Union Street on W. Whitechapel Road on N. Commercial Road on S. Jubilee Street on E. , The whole of this area is now almost entirely occupied by aliens. Boundaries of Second Area, Commercial Street on W. from Whitechapel Road to Quaker Street. Quaker Street, Buxton Street, and Derwit Street on N. Brady Street on E. Whitechapel Road on S. Boundaries of Third Area. Commercial Road on N. Back Church Lane on W. Cable Street on S. Cannon Street Road on E. Mr. Sf. E. KtiverV Mr. Samuel Eli Kilner called; and Examined. 9206. (Chairman.) Are you a member of the firm of Gane and Kilner, solicitors ?—Yes. 9207. A witness who was called here on Monday last,. a Mr. Gillmore, gave an account of having received a nbitice to quit from his premises. Who is his landlord' ? —Mr. Donn. • 9208. Are you the solicitor of Mr. Donn ?—Yes. 9209. I believe you wish to make a statement as to » the circumstances under which that notice was given ?— Yes. 9210. Will you state them briefly ?■—My client bought . this property. There are several houses together^ and' it has a return front xge in Pell Street. A large portion? of the land is held by ihis tenant(in the centre with a - large wooden shed at the side, and our client's intentionsMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 305 is to ouild a permanent building on that portion ; he could not do so until he obtained possession of these premises. 9211; Is Mr; Donn an alien immigrant ?—He has been twenty years in England. Whether you would term liim an alien immigrant I do not know. He is a naturalised British subject, and has been here twenty years. 9212. This really does not come much within our pro- jyrr. vince, but you may state shortly why you gave Mr. Gillmore notice to quit ?—For the purpose of our being ——: able to erect a permanent structure here instead of this 31 July 1902; dangerous wooden structure that is now there. He could j-u not get possession of these premises so as to be able to build. This is the plan which is before the architect at the present time for the purpose of developing it (pro- ducing a plan). Mrs. Frances Jams# called ; and Examined. Mrs F. Jamu. 9213. (Major Evans GVrdon.) Do you keep a lamp- shop and oil-shop in the Mile End Road ?■—Yes ; I have been there over thirty years. 9214. I understand your business has fallen off lately ?—Very much indeed. 9215; What do you attribute that falling off to ?— Through losing my customers ; they have had to go away. 9216. Do you see them when they go away, and do you know they are going away?—Yes, they come and wish me good-bye, and tell me they are obliged to go out on account of the Jews taking the houses. 9217. And their rents are raised ?—Yes. 9218v And you lose your customers ?—Yes. 9219. And your business has fallen off ?—Very much indeed. 9220. Has it fallen off half ?—Quite half—more than half. 9221. In this lamp and oil business of yours, have competitive shops been opened by foreigners?—Yes. 9222. Not by English people ?—No. 9223. And these people naturally deal with one an- other to a large extent ?'—Yes. 9224. Have you reduced your establishment ?—Yes ; I have, done away with my manager and my shopman. 9225. You had a manager and shopm an ?—Yes. 9226. And now they are gone ?—Yes. 9227. You are struggling on by yourself ?'—Yes. 9228. You feel this of course, very much ?—Very much indeed. 9229. And you say your customers feel it too?—Yes, very much, having to go. ' 9230. They do not wish to leave?—No. 9231. (Chairman.) When did you begin to notice that the foreigners were driving the English people out ?— About four or five years ago. 9232. It became marked ?—Yes, very marked. 9233. Has it been going on increasing ?—Yes. 9234. Where do you think these old customers of yours who have been turned out have gone to ?—They are spread about. Some have gone into Romford Road and down that way, and some to Walthamstow. 9235. Do they come back to work in the neighbour- hood by day ?—-Some of them have to. 9236. But, at all events, they cease to be customers of yours ?■—Yes. 9237. Is that action increasing?—Very much indeed. 9238. Do you know yourself that these rents have been increased?—-Yes ; they have been very much. 9239. vVe have asked the question several times—how do the new tenants—who, I understand from you, are afems and fioredjgneris—manage to jxay the rent ?—Be- cause they have so many living in the same house. We could not live crowded like that. 9240. Where four people lived in a room there are now eight, and they can afford to pay the rent more 1— They can afford to pay it more than we could. Mr. Wilson Booth a 9241. {Chairman.) You are a pointer, I believe ?—Yes. 9242. Have you a shop or works?—We have a large printing office in Whitehorse Lane. 9243. How many years have you been carrying on that business ?—For twenty years. , 9244. Do you occupy any public position in Stepney ? I hawe held puMic posifcioms fooitlh. on the Board of Guardians and on the local vestry. 9245. What is the character of your trade—is it print- ing bills or books, or what is it?—We do any kind of letterpress printing that'comes to us. 9246. Who have been your principal customers—what class of people?—Some years ago the churches and chapels and religious societies of the district largely supported me, but their work has very greatly fallen off this last twelve or fourteen years. 9247. How did tliat come to pass?—I think it came to pass through the very great decline of the congregations and the work of the various churches in East London. 9248. Have any of these churches or chapels been closed entirely ?—Some of them have. 9249. And some go on with diminished congregations ? —They nearly all go on with greatly diminished con- gregations. 9250. Tell me generally what has beeai the effect on your business?—The effect on my business has been the loss of this particular kind of work, but, fortunately, we have made that up by other work which has come entirely from outside the district, so that I am not really a sufferer personally in business. 9251. Now come to your observation of the neighbour- hood. WThat has been the change—if there has been a change—in the character of the population?—We have a very imuch lower class of population than we had even 15 years ago. 6144. lea ; and Examined. j^r W. Boom. 9252. How is it composed ?—It is composed princi- - pally of the aliens, and also of the lower class of British. 9253. Are they British workmen, or are they of any particular race ?—I speak of the lower classes generally. 9254. But you have spoken of the aliens. I am speak- ing now of race. Have they come in in large numbers 1 —Very large numbers. 9255. Then you say there has been a change in the rest of the population, and the population seems to be of a lower class ?—Of a lower class than they were 10 or 15 years ago. 9256. What has caused the lower class of British parson to come in ?—The leaving of the neighbourhood by the middle class population who formerly lived in it. 9257. What drove them out ?—I should say the ex- cessive rents and the alien immigration. 9258. If the higher rents drive the better classes out, ho v do these lower classes—I am not speaking of aliens but English people—come and take their place as against the high renits?—-Their places have been taken by the aliens, and the lower class of British who were left behind. 9259. Tihien I tthiink we are at cross purpose®. The lower class of British have not come in, but they have remained in?—Yes. 9260. Does the alien, having come in, live in the same way that that class of Englishmen lived formerly f —Oil, no, he does not. 9261. You have seen these men, I suppose ?—Yes, I have. 9262. What condition are they in? Do they look as if they were very poor, or uncleanly, or in what con- dition are they?—They look as though they were very poor, and, certainly, many of them are very unclean and dirty. Q Q366 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION ' f 9&60. Do, you mean at first when they come in, or do W• Booth, tiiey feilaih dirty ?—Many of them continue dirty. 9264./BoK you know, when the better class of work- ' meii have gone away, where they have gone to?—They havi& ^Qne out to East Ham, Walthamstow, Upton Park, aiid down the line. 9265. Bo they come in here to work in the daytime ?— Yes. My own workmen, who formerly lived in Stepney, now all of them live away. 9266. They com© in to you and work as they did before?—Yes, they come in and work. A 9267. Can they manage to get here by six in the morning ?—We dp not begin till 8 o'clock, and leave off at half-past 6. 9268. Have you anything to suggest? You say you have been a member of the Board of Guardians. If sanitary laws were made regulating the number of people who should live in a house, and those laws were carried out, what would become of the people who were so turned out against their will—where would they go to ? —That is really a question I am not wise enough to answer. 9269. You want somebody else to answer it ?—Yes. It is a.problem that I would not undertake to answer. 9270. You have no practical suggestion to make?—I am afraid that those who are here and who overcrowd us must be allowed to remain, but I think some steps should be taken to prevent any more from coming in. 9271. Then the evil that Stepney is complaining of now would not be removed ? All you would say is that it should not be increased ?—Certainly not. 9272. Is there much feeling on this subject of alien immigration among the English Jews as well as others ? —A very strong feeling indeed, expressed by very many of all classes, including the English J ews and the trades- men &nd the middle classes. 9273- Have:!there been any outbreaks or any fights or anything of that kind?—I am not aware of anything / of that kind. 0 9274. Of course, these Jews coming in have displaced the former religious life of the district to a great ex- tent?—To a very great extent, and it has also changed very largely the social life of the district. 9275. (Lord Rothschild.) You have lived all your life in this district, have you not ?—Yes. I was born here. ^ ' 9276. You have lived for a great many years in Stepney Green -Yes; I lived for some 12 years odd in Stepney' Green. 9277. You knew the district which is now called Boun- dary Street before it was pulled down and rebuilt ?— That is out of my district. 9278. You did not know it ?—No, I did not know that1 district. 9279. You know the district of Whitechapel near Dorset Street, and all round there, which has been pulled down and rebuilt ?—I do not know that much. The dis- trict that I am well acquainted with would be from the New Road down to Bow Church—all the district lying in between those two places I should be very well acquainted with. ' . . 9280. Sb that you do not know any of the districts which were pulled down and other houses built,, and you could not say whether the population that is living ; there now is better or worse than it used to be formerly ? —I am not able to answer that, not with regard to Whitechapel and Spitalfields. 9281. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have you any thing else to say ?—I should like to make a statement about the excessive rents. That affects the middle class more than the poorer class. For instance, oil my way to the Com- mission to-night I met Mr. Boyton, who was a draper in Stepney Square, and I asked him how he wa$ getting on, and he said, " Very badly indeed." I said, " I iini on my way to the Commission. Can you give me any facts ? " He gave me the following facts—that when he first went into Stepney Square he paid £32 a year rent and £1 13s. per quarter taxes, and he now has to pay £50 a year rent and £3 8s. a quarter taxes. He said that was entirely owing to the foreign landlords, who had purchased all the property in the neighbourhood of Stepney Square, and who had raised the rents. Then I had another case of a Mr. Brbwn; a draper in Philpot Street, who rented two houses there at £40 a year. He has been there for many years, carrying on a large draper's business. They proposed to raise his rent about £12, or he had to leave his business premises. He quitted them, and he has gone away, much to his in- convenience. 9282. When did the foreign landlord buy this pro- perty?—I could not say. but it would be several yea^s ago. 9283. Have not you lost your own workpeople out of the neighbourhood?—Yes, they have gone out erf the neighbourhood. Mr. J. Pam Mr. Joseph Pam, called; and Examined. 9284. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) Where do you live?— 83, Sutton Street, St. George's. 9285. You are an English Jew?—Yes, born in Mile End Old Town, and 40 years in St. George's. 9286. How old are you ?—48; I was born in 1854. 9287. You have lived all your life in St. George's-in- the-East ?—No; I lived eight years in Mile End Old Town, and 40 years in St. George's. 9288. Have you acquired knowledge of the district from that long number of years' residence?—I have had 25 years going about in political life, and in 1889 I brought out the " Jewish Register," and, going from house to house right" through St. George's, I know the position of the people right round there. 9289. You are a shoemaker by trade ?—Yes. 9290. Do you work for yourself ?—Yes, I work for my- self and work for a shop. 9291. What information can you give us about over- crowding and high rents?—Four years ago I lived m Marmaduke Place. I lived there for 14 years. 9292. That is in St. George's? — Yes, in Langdale Street, St. George's. While I was living there they came down and said, " You have got to go." A gentle- man came first, and the landlord came on the following Monday and said, " Mr. Pam, you have to clear out. The house has got to be done up." I said, " I can't go from one place to another, as you know. The houses are very hard to get round St. George's, and you cannot get one at any price- and I have a large family, and can- not go anywhere." He said, "I do not know. You know the gentleman who was here one day in the week ?" I said, Yes." He said, " He is the sanitary inspector of the London County Council." If I have any gentle- men who come to my place and want to look over my house, I generally ask for their authority, but on that occasion I did not. I said, " Well, you will have to give me time." 9293. ('Chairman.) Did the inspector look over the house ?—Yes, my Lord. I said, " You will have to give me time." He said, "We want the place. It must be done, because when the sanitary inspector of the London County Council comes down he will not be played with, and we must have you out of the place, or you will get me into trouble." A few days after, or a week after, I have this same gentleman come down. I opened the door, and he asked me why the alterations have been done.' I said, " Who are you? " He said, " I am the agent for the fire insurance company." I said, " Will you give me your card ? " and as a gentleman he went over his pocket and got out his little purse and gave me a card. I put it into my pocket. When the agent came on Monday I said, " The sanitary inspector from the London County Council has been down." He said, " Oh, I told you you would get me into trouble." I said, " Will I ? " 3 said, " I can see you are the agent now instead of Mr. Blum " —he was the original landlord. " You have handed it over to your own insurance company, and they have come down? and they only want the alterations for the protection from the fire downstairs in the kitchen, and little things out in the yard," because next door to me there were some foreigners. 9294. {Chairman.) Who was your landlord?—Mr. Blum. 9295. I do not see what this has to do with alien imnii-MINUTES: OF EVIDENCE. ,3U7 gr^tio^ P^I was turned put,-of my house at the finish, ItioA'. agood :^riead/;o|'^i]^e,,.,-MT-. Wilson, happened to leave his place—277, Cable Street—and I had to take .rriy famjly -into one of these building places. When I ./tufrnecl out of that house, the next day there was a paex -of thes.e aliens came into it without a bit of alteration. It was only to get me out, and now my house, No. 4, Marmadufee's Place, is lined with them. I was only there half an hour ago previous to coming here, and I tell you, gentlemen, it is packed like flies in that place. , 9296{({Major Evans-Gordon.) The point of your statement is that all this about the sanitary inspector was a pretence, and then these measures were resorted to turn you out of your house ?—Yes. 9207. And to replace you by, as you say, a pack of these aliens ?—Yes. 9298. With regard to the high rents, what can you tel. lis aibioiit these ?—£ can teSl you of several cases. Take the place where Mrs. Wells lived 3£ years ago, ait 40, Iiamgdale Street. The remit was 10s. a weelk, and now it has gone up to 25s. a week. Then 44 ; there are houses there that went at 9s. a week, and they have now gone up to 15s. a week. Then opposite, No. 37, also in Langdale Street, 39 and 41, Langdale Street, there was there a landlord of the name of Josephson, arid he has got other property all round here. That went some four years ago at 14s. a week. My own sister-in-law lived in the place then, and now those he uses go at £1 a week. I may tell you that only 14 :days ago, : overcrowded as they were, ito less than ten families have come in two of the houses, and they are iall packed: in them. • 9299,. They have added more families to the already crowded place ?—They have added more to the present dot—ten families. 9300. I suppose you could give us numerous in- stances of increase of rents; but I do not think we will go into them at length. What I understand is that there has been an enormous rise of rents in your experience all round this neighbourhood?—Yes. I could take you to Wellington Buildings. There are twelve houses in Wellington Buildings, and there are five houseis which went ait 3s. 3d:, a week. They had no yards, and as you open the door you went into the room and upstairs was the other room. On the other side where you looked out of the window you could shake hands with one another. Those houses now go at 8s. - a week; the other seven houses had a little bit of a yard, so they went at 3s. 9d. a week, and they now go at 12s. a week. 9301. Are those houses owned by alien landlords ?— Yes, by Mr. Rosenberg. Then about No. 8, Marma- duke Place, with regard to Mr. Rosenberg and Mr. Richardson: Mr. Rosenberg is t!he son-in-law of Mr. Richardson, and I condemn these foreign landlords more than I do even the aliens themselves, because you must consider I am a Jew from the sole of my foot to the crown of my head, and T am going to speak of 30 years ago, that is leaving me 18 years of age, so that I know something about the conditions of the parish. No. 8 is a house that went at 8s. 6d. a week, and it is a lodging house. If you will believe me, or send an agent to go and see-of a morning, you would fancy it was a licensed lodging-house. There are no end of people who come out, and, what is more, they go there to cook their dinners. There was a bit of a fire some 3? years ago, and the consequence was they had to get out to have it repaired. Rosenberg himself, who is the OEPiigtfinial landlord, took £1 off a miam for the key to go in the empty howse. He was oine who went ouit after the fire. Another man came along and offered him 30s., and he takes this man's 30s., and then there was a free fight between the two men and Rosenberg himself in the same court. They came up to my place where I lived, at No. 4. There is a house in Lang- dale Street, at the, corner, where a man of the name of Hughes lived, a respectable painter, and a respectable citizen. He used to pay 8s. a week, and he built a little shed m his yard for his painting brushes and so forth, where he used to put them after he had done his Work. Now that man has gone, and that house has gone up to 25s. a week, and there are a wife and1 family sleeping in that shed now at the present time. 9302. •Po'reiigfnier.s ?—All foreigners now, because there are no Englishmen at all. I speak from practi- cal experience, and on one side of Cannon Street, from Baicikc/hurch Lane, there used' to be from 700 to 800 6144 householders, and now I guarantee without exaggera- JJ, P&qt. tion you will not find 40, and if I say 40 I should be —— """ ' exaggerating—that is, without lodgers. I have"gone.***■ J^ly 1902. rroiunia there for a great many years. j - 9303. You have canvassed it for political purposes? .—Yes., 9304. In the Radical interests ?—Yes, that is true, but I am not here as a Radical or Tory, I am a Radical. 9305. This is a very serious thing I want to ask you about now. What is your experience of the state of the morality among these people who come in?—I can tell you that up the court where I live they have come over after they have been into the next corner to me and the other corner just opposite me, and they have gone in in such a state I do not like to mention after they have been standing there, and some of them had not seen their bed for a week. They have been right- down filthy, I have taken an interest in local matters for a great many years* and I have run as a vestryman and guardian myself. I have been orult alt five o'clock in the morning, and I have seen the sanitary inspector at his work. I know the gentleman, and he has come and spoken to me. By reason of these high rents they cut the house up by sheets. Take this last case—they put a sheet across this way and that way, and it makes four compartments. 9306. WThat sort of sized room is it that you speak of?—The ordinary sized room right round the parish. 9307 Abo:it 12 feet or 13 feet square?—A very small room. They are not mansions round that way. 9308. They divide the room into four?—Yes. 9309. With the sheets?—With the sheets. 9310. Each compartment contains a family ?—Each compartment contains a family. 9311. Have you seen this with your own eyes?-— Where these rooms have been, cut up into four com- partments there has been a man who slept there—no family. Each compartment has been where one has slept, and there have been three men. in these compart- ments and a family. I have seen them when I have. been standing in my ciourt, arid yoiu coin see them go right into their beds. There is no morality with some of them at all. 9312. With regard to these dancing places, and so on ; what is going on there ?—That is something ter- rible. I had occasion to go to a place-—I do not know whether I should be right in mentioning the place, but there are several, places. I went in and had a cup of coffee, and when I got in there all their eyes were on me. They knew I was a stranger and not used to this sort of thing, and I heard the band playing up. There were poses plastiques—there were girls hali naked, and it is the sort of thing existing right the way round Cannon Street, and it is not fit to bring up a family round there. 9313. You say the whole neighbourhood has gone down and deteriorated ?—Yes. 9314. How many children have you got?—1' have got 13 alive. 9315. Your feeling would be that bringing up a family in this neighbourhood is a very bad thin^ for the family?—Yes. • ° 9316. That you say decidedly ?—I could swear to that. 9317. You, as you have told us, are a Jew yourself? —Yes, bred and born. 9318. Therefore, you have naturally no anti-Jewish or racial feeling ?—No, not likely. I am a Jew all over. 9319. What is the f eeling among the native or English population with regard to these aliens comino- here in such numbers ?—The feeling among the English Jews is they are embittered. They say that, and they hit them down m St. George's very cruelly; and I feel it and very often I get into a row for it. ' 9320. They hit about the people who come 2—The ignorant people hit them, and there is many a row that I get m over it. The English Jews do get into rows over it. 9321. You would say that the English Jew, in vour experience, feels it as strongly as any other member of the population?—Yes, they do; and they have said they would be glad to try and protect them in some shape or form. 9322. Are the English Jews, in youjr experience of QQ.2308 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION *. ir July 1902. *ifr J. Patn. 40 years, being, driven out of their houses, as well as the Christian, [people ?—Most decidedly. 9323. And therefore they suffer in that way as much as anybody else ?—Yes; I have had a shop for two and a half years in Cable Street, and I do not believe there were two of these aliens who came in and asked me to mend them a pair of boots. 9324. Have you instances of places you know of which were inhabited by respectable people in your time, but which have gone down very (much ?—(Most decidedly. I can mention many streets. There is James Street. That was a very nice street, and I believe there were >about one or two Jews who lived there, and it used to. be very nice and clean. 9325. And a perfectly friendly feeling between the Christian and the Jewish people ?—-Yes, most decidedly. -They worked hand in hand, the English Jew and the Christian, and they always respected one another. Then there is Grove (Street, Allan Street, Everard Street, Boyd Street, Gloucester Buildings, and Back- church [Lane. This Gloucester Buildings was one of the prides of St. George's. There were 39 houses in it, and at No. 38 there used to be a builder, and any repairs that were wanted1 to be done in Gloucester 'Buildings this man used to da It used to be beautiful, and he used to take a pride' in cleaning half of the road, and people used to take a pride in cleaning half their . steps, and it used to be a credit to the neighbourhood ; but to-day it is a disgrace. 9326. How do you mean it is disgraceful; is it crowded with these people ?—It is crowded, and I can tell you the cause of it is the excessive rent. It has caused these people to be crushed as they are, and what I call so-called; Christians- 9327. Do you say the abnormal demand for houses, and the rooms crowded by these people flowing in, has lowered the standard of the neighbourhood generally ?— Most decidedly; that cannot be denied. 9328. With regard to this feeling which you have described, do you think the feeling among the native alien immigrants is increasing ?—Yes ; certainly-it in- creases more and more, because my opinion is that in another 12 months there will be something of a free fight, or something like that. There will really. 9329. You say in a few years' time the competition between the foreigners and the native Jew will be as keen as anything can foe ?—Yes; it will be eye to eye. That is the reason I am here. 9330. You appear here, believing yourself to repre- sent the mass of native English Jewish opinion as against this immigration?—Yes, against them coming here. 9331. What has been the effect of this immigration upon your particular trade, the boot trade ?—It has ruined it completely. The tailoring and the boot trade has gone itx> ruin, because at one time I started to work at Elatau's, in Leadenhall Street, when I was eight and a half or nine years old, and1 I worked for a man of the name of Lyon®, opposite the Jewish Board of Guardians. 9332. (jLord Rothschild.) In Middlesex Street?—At the bottom, right opposite the Jewish Board of Guar- dians. At 'those establishments a man could go in and get a thoroughly good living. I have got a brother work- , ing there who gets his £3 or £4 a week. He is one of the quickest. We always1 did get a wonderfully good living. The whole lot of us, and aflfl. the men who were there, were nice and comfortable when we worked in Rope- makers Street. We were treated all right. But since these foreigners have come here they have got their little money, and they can go and manufacture the goods jat such a low rate that when they have manufactured the goods they cannot see -any return for them back again, and the consequence is that there are lots of them who had to (run away, and who have gone bank- rupt. One evil was, they went and sold the goods, and they took a lot of goodls into Elatau's, and I was selling goods there. These people would come in and would sell them for one guinea a dozen, when I was getting 130s. a dozen. When I came in with my goods, the buyer would say directly, " I can get the same goods . for 21s; why should I pay you 30s. ?'" I might make some excuse that my goods are better, and that I have to pay my men more. It does not matter toi him, and he says, " He is working for Mr. So-and-So, and if he can do them for this price, you can do them." Then I should have to go back without an order, and relate this story at home. That is how it has been going from time to time, arid the work has got to the state in which it now is. 9333. Why can they make the goods so cheap as you describe?—Because the big men pay all itheir men a fair rate of wage, and they have got clerks, and all that sort of thing, and these little men work in cup- boards ; you don't know where they are. I know there is a place in Langdale Street, where there is no grating at all, an underground kitchen, and where a wife and family are living. With regard to sanitary inspectors, it would take 50 sanitary inspectors to cope with the places that run from Backchuroh Lane, Cannon Street. I know the men well; I know all of them, and they do the work well, but they cannot cope with it. They oould cope with it years ago, but they cannot cope with it now. 9334. (Mr. Vallance.) Referring to your displace- ment in Marmaduke Place, supposing it had not been possible for a landlord to overcrowd his houses, would you have been likely to have been displaced ?—Most decidedly not; I had the other alternative. 9335. Supposing it had not been possible for your landlord to have overcrowded your house, when you left it, would there have been any temptation or inducement on his part to raise your rent or to require you to quit the house ?—I tried. I went down to his place, and it cost me 6d. each time. 9336. Why did the landlord seek to get you out of the house ?—-Because he knew that I was an advanced man, and that I did not believe in raising the rents, and I objected to these 'aliens; and from what I could understand, he did not like to put it to me that he wanted 3s. a week more rent, and he thought it advisable to get me out. I cried 'to him and my wife cried to him. I 'had .then 11 children, and I said, " Where have I to go ? I have been everywhere; I have gone and asked all the agents (all round the neighbourhood,, and -have tried everywhere to get a place, and I .cannot get one." 9337. Would your landlord have been able to obtain for that house, a higher rent than you were paying had it not been for the pos»sibility of overcrowding?—No. 9338. Then, if overcrowding in that house had been an impossibility under the law, would you have been likely to have been removed from that house ?—No, I do not believe I would. 9339. (Lord Rothschild.) I think you said you worked at Lyons', in Middlesex Street?-—Yes. 9340. You also said that the 'boot trade was not so good as it used to be ?—No; not by any means. 9341. Would you kindly explain to me why Lyons are continually advertising that they are in want of new hands at high wages ?—There is no advertising at all. 9342. I looked into the shop the other day and saw it ? —No, my Lord, we stand there from eight in the morning till seven at night, and when seven at night comes there is no work. You can stop there the whole day. I have been there at 6 o'clock in the morning to get my turn at eight, when the door opens, in case somebody else might come, and I have stopped there all the day, and there has been no work. 9343. I was at the factory last week, and there were large placards stuck up saying they wanted new hands at high wages ?—Three piarts of the machinery hiave been stopped. 9344. (Chairman.) From what cause?—Slackness of work. We have nothing to do. Three weeks ago I earned 8s. 9345. You are speaking of Lyons factory?—Yes, I have been working there. 9346. Lately ?—Yes, I work there now. 9347. Perhaps those bills that Lord Rothschild speaks of were old' bills ?—I have worked there over 30 years. 9348. Have you seen these bills up, asking for new hands ?—No. 9349. (Lord Rothschild.) At the factory next to the free school?—No. 9350. I looked at them myself when I went- by there ? —'What hands? All the machinery is stopped, and" everything. It has completely gone. It is not right to speak about a firm, but we think there is an end of it through this. The only thing I can put it down to is to these foreign landlords. These landlords aTeMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 309 *the enemies of the country. First of all, tliey are ^either finishers, or tailors, or mineral water merchants. 9351. You mentioned Mr. Blum as your landlord. Was he an alien or an Englishman?—I could not say whether he was an Englishman or an alien? but I know his son was on the register, and the son came into the property, so. that would make him a born Englishman. 9352. (Chairman.) Your experience of overcrowding has been confined to this locality and this neighbour- hood ?~Y*s. 9353. And this putting up of sheets in a room! strikes you as being most objectionable ?—Yes, most decidedly —it is immorality. 9354. You do- not know what is going on in the cottages in our agricultural districts, and how many sleep in a room there?—No. 9355. I am afraid it is quite as bad as what you have mentioned here ?—I may say there are 20 of them, and there are a lot of them that are absolutely gambling dens. Plenty of them are kept up because they can .afford to pay the rent by having gambling dens. Where they pay this excessive rent for four rooms, they can .afford to nay £1 a week. How can an Englishman afford to pay £1 a weoK ? There are thousands of men /working on the railway banks for 16s. a week, and when they have been there for three or four years they get £1. How can they cope with these people ? These men come over here and they save a little money, and they live in the worst style imaginable, and they get these houses and let them in tenements, and then they buy the property and get £100 or £50, and they mort- gage it. They do not pay the mortgage, it is the in- ■coming teanainft who has to pay the mlartglage, and these poor fellows—I call them poor fellows, because I am 'in sympathy with them as much as any man in the world—they have to get work and starve and toil to pay these foreign landlords their money. An English- man cannot do it, he cannot sleep or live in the same style. They only wash themselves once a week, and they live on bread. I could tell you of cases where they liave a pennyworth of bread in the morning. I have had one or two men at work with me—my father has had, them as well. They average themselves at 6d. a day, and no more. We give them in our line at home tea at breakfast-time and tea. at tea-time. They have a pennyworth of bread for their breakfast and a mug of tea. When I employed them I would give them some, and many a time I have talken the bread away and put some butter on it. At dinner-time they would have a pennyworth of bread and a Dutch herring. At tea-time Mr. Robert Holditch, 9366. (Chairman.) You live, in Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green?—Yes. 9367. What are you by trade ?—A butcher. 9368i How many years have you been carrying on that trade?—Upwards of. 10 years. 9369. Has your business been increasing or decreasing ? —My business has decreased 50 per cent, within the last four years. 9370. When did it begin to decrease ?—About four or five years ago. 9371. To what do you attribute the cause of that de- crease ?—To the aliens ousting our own people by pay- ing the exorbitant rents, and respectable people moving away from the surrounding neighbourhood, being unable to tolerate their surroundings. 9372. There has been a change in the resident popu- lation from the ordinary English inhabitant being re- placed by the alien immigrants ?—That is so. 9373. Do these alien immigrants buy butchers' meat at all ?—No, they do not buy it at all off me. 9374. Do they go to other shops?—They go to the smaller shops—the Kosher shops. I am a " trifer." 9375. Do you attribute the loss in your business to these a;lien immigrants cotming ?^-Yes, because they .have driven my best customers away. 9376. Are you still1 carrying on your business ?—Yes. 9377. At a lower profit ?—At a smaller return. 9378. With regard ito the" occupation of the houses, in the$r would have a jiennyworth of herrings and a mug Mr. J. Pam. of tea; that would make 3fd., and with the other 2d. ■ they would buy something else; and that is what they 31 July«1902. live on d?iy after day. V(it ... 9356. What wages were you paying the men who live like that?—They get £1 a week, or 24s., or 18s., all according to their abilities. They have brought this system in of paying so much a day, whereas when we boys were at work we paid so much a week. 9357. Would 24s. be treated as a fair wage for a week's work?—Yes, 4s. a day. 9358. Can our workmen earn 24s. as easily as they can?—Our workmen can do just the same. Our men could do more work than they could, because they have t got more body in them, and they live better; they are healthier. , v ^ 9359. Our men spend more ?—They spend it on their inside, and good; luck to theim, I say. They spend it in the right direction. Supposing I want to earn 8s. per day, I get 8s. for my work. I would be satisfied if I worked eight hours and got 8s., but they are not satis- fied with working eight hours; they would work 12 or 16, and do the other eight hours' work, and instead of getting 8s. for the other eight hours' work, they would be satisfied with getting 4s. 9360. Have you been employing men lately and pay- ing them 18s. to 24s. a week?—It is 12 months ago since I employed them. Boys 16 years of age I have boys were at work we piaild' so much a week. 9361. Your trade must be pretty good to afford to pay that price?—They are not old enough to go into a firm; they are of the age of 16 and they are pretty nimble. These boys who are here have been here a great many years, and they have been to schools like the Jewish Free School, which is the finest school in the world, and God bless the Rothschilds for it. 9362. (Lord Rothschild.) Were you at the Free School? —Yes, and proud to have belonged to it. 9363. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You referred to these gambling dens. Have you come across any ?—Yes, and as a witness said some -time ago, the neighbourhood is crowded with them. In Eldon Street they have their own auctioneer, and when they get silver and gold their own auctioneer sells it for them. 9364. Would you say that we are getting into this country a very bad class of people P—Yes. 9365. That you say deliberately ?—Yes; the whole of this parish is demoralised—something terrible. called; and Examined. ^ B. HoldMih* the first place, do you know anything about the rents?— " That has been gone into fully, and it is a recognised fact that the rents have all gone up. 9379. I think that is quite proved?—Yes. 9380. And that you know ?—Yes. 9381. Nothing has happened to you in that respect , yourself?—No, I am a leaseholder. 9382. Then also you speak: generally to there having been an increase in the number of people in each house, and the houses have come to be overcrowded?—Yes, I can mention one instance in particular. Opposite me there is an alien butcher. There are three rooms in the house, a shop parlour, the first floor, and second floor. The owner or occupier is a butcher, and he lets off the other two floors. He has a family of eight, and there is a family of eight in the second room and a family of eight in the third room. The other floor is divided by a sheet hung across, and there are two families in the top, making altogether 24 people in one house of three rooms and only one convenience. There is no other at the back. 9383. That is one instance. Are there many in- stances of overcrowding that you know of personally ?— Yes; that is only one that has come to my immediate notice. When I went there 10 years ago there was not an alien in the street, amd now every time there is a place to let they come there. They do not give our own people a chance of taking the place. 9384. What is the proportion of aliens compared with the English inhabitants ? Are the aliens in a majority or not?—No, I should think they are about equal310 BOYAL COMMISSION" ON ALIEN "IMMIGRATION : Mr. 9385. Have you anything else to. tell us that you have ' & Hotditcfa seen as; to the effect of these people cotming in ?—No, $1 July~l902 onty the pauper* element encourages the sale of a very * ' inferior article which is only just passable by the in- spector, which anyone can see if they go clown Went- wortli Street or such streets as that. 9386. Articles of what nature?—'Fruit and fish in particular. 9387. When you say inferior articles are those ad- vanced so as to be nearly decayed, and so as scarcely to pass the inspector ?—Yes, because they can be sold at a lower price. 9388. There is a demand for those things among the poorer class ?—Yes, It ought not to be so. 9389. Have you seen any disturbances among this class of people, aliens and English ?:—Frequently late of a Saturday night you see some of the " boys," as- they call them, pummelling into the aliens. 9390. Are those the young lads who pitch into the aliens?—Yes. 9391. {Lord Rothschild.) Apart from the overcrowding, can you explain why some of these aliens get on and are able to buy houses ?—I do not think I can exactly explain that. Mrs. Ayres. Mrs. Ayres, called; and Examined. ' 93^2. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where do you reside ¥— At 45, Jubilee Street, and I have resided there for about 27, or possibly more, years. 9393. Are you a nurse?—No, I am a midwife. T. learned midwifery. 9394. Have you attended upon the alien population of which we are speaking ?—Yes, many of them. 9395. You have had good opportunities of observing < them ?—I have. 9396. How do they compare in their habits and their lives with the poorest of the other population ?—Yery badly. I have had about 16 years' connection with the Whitechapel Union, and I never met among the Irish people so much coarseness as I have met among these. There is an utter lack of decency in many instances. 9397. Do you refer now to the newcomers ?—I do. 9398. Not to those who Lave been here some-time ?— No. 9399.They improve as they go on?—It takes a long' time. 9400. But still there would be an improvement?—1 say it would take a long time, and I think it is scarcely right that we should have them here to improve them. 9401. With regard to Sunday work, do you know any- thing about that?—We have no Sundays. We cannot have a Sunday. 9402. You would hardly expect it in a very large foreign population?—I am speaking now of since the foreign element has been so much in our street. We could have a quiet Sunday before. 9403. But they have their own Sunday, which many of them keep very closely ?—In some ways, but they do not. respect ours. It is a matter of self with these foreigners. I am not speaking of English Jewish people. Our English Jewish people are comfortable, and we cam do with them, and some of these—there is not a rule without ail exception—are moist unpleasant people to deal with, both in our profession and as neighbours. 9404. You draw a distinction between the native Eng- lish Jew and the foreign invader?—Certainly; it is not a matter of creed—it is a, matter of principle and con- duct. 9405. Nothing that you would say about these people Applies to the English*Jewish population?—Not at all; and I can do with some few of the foreigners. 9406. Do you know about their diet and the food they live upon?—They exist, most of them—they do not live. 9407. They live on very poor food?—Yes. 9408. With regard to the crowded condition which we have heard so much about, you must in the course of your duties have come across that. Can you tell us any- thing about it?—Yes, I know a great deal about it. Whole families, with elders and grown-up sons and daughters, exist in one room—it is not living, it is existing; I have seen four bedsteads for adults and a heap on the floor in one room. 9409. All herded together ?—Yes; they live like pigs in a sty, many of them, and are as dirty. 9410. Have you ever called these unpleasant facts to the notice of the sanitary authorities?—No ; I thought that was their work. 9411. You have never called attention to it ?—No. > 9412. You say you have been 27 years in this- neigh- bourhood?—I have. 9413. Would you say that the district has gone down or up, or has improved, or what?—Most certainly it has lowered—for my own self I can speak. It has driven the best part of my respectable paying patients away. Most of these poor people have charity or dis- pensary letters, and they are not paying persons. Another thing is people cannot afford to pay the exorbitant rents that very many of these foreign land- lords charge. I can endorse all that the Jewish witness —Pam—told you, and in a large measure what he told you I myself can answer for as positive facts. 9414. Do you know anything about the gambling habits and so on ?—I have seen them. 9415. Can you give us any instance of a street that has fallen off very much or gone down very much ?:—- Oh, yes, many. 9416. Samuel Street ?—Yes, Samuel Street is one. 9417. Where is Samuel Street ?—It is in St. George's, just off Cannon Street Road. 9418. Is that a street that has altered very much ?— It used to be a street occupied by poor English and Irish people. In the afternoons you would see the steps* inside cleaned, and the women with their clean white aprons sit in summer time inside the doors, perhaps at needlework, with their little children about. Now it is. a seething mass of refuse and filth, and I think it is an invariable rule of each of these smaller houses—I believe they are four-roomed houses—there is a family in each room, and the stench from the refuse and the filth is disgraceful. I myself was there some few weeks since. I was fetched on the Monday evening to attend a patient, and had to stop my nostrils, for the smell that came from the refuse of the fish, and in some of" the houses the private windows have been turned into small fish shops. 9419. The windows of the ground floor?—Yes, a. narrow window about three feet in width. 9420. You want to say something about the Rou- manian lanndly, what is that?—I was told only one- day this week—I will not mention the name, but it was one of the tradespeople in Oxford Street—that the Roumanian laundry has just been opened. It appears they sleep in their beds at night, and in the daytime thejr let them out to some bakers to sleep. 9421. There are two shifts of people in the room. Why is it called a laundry ?—I suppose because they take- in washing. 9422. The people who have to work by day occupy the room at night, and the people who work at night occupy the room by day?—Yes; they take in lodgers, who occupy the beds in the daytime, and they themselves occupy them at night. 9423. That you have not seen yourself?—No, but I*" believe it to be the fact. 9424. That has been told you ?—Yes. 9425. We have been told these people are very sober in their habits. What have you to say about that?____ They can take their share as well as other people, only they are quiet. They are more stolid: Brandy is their drink, and it is the first thing they will offer you. They would not offer you a nice fresh cup of tea or coffee, but in 19 cases out of every 20 they offer you a small glass of brandy. I do not take it myself, Because I am a life abstainer almost. 9426. What have you to say about key money?_I have heard a great deal about it. 9426*. We will not trouble you' about that, because -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 311 -we have bad a great deal of evidence about it. What about the feeling with regard to this in the neighbour- hood P Is the feeling very strong?—It is very strong against them. 9427. The feeling amongst the English Jews and the Christian people both?—Yes. ' 04^8. Both classes feel it P—Yes, they are such an un- pleasant, indecent people. I can give you in a small way -a"specimen. Some time, perhaps two months ago, I was fetched to a place ; I found the door wide open, the place lit up, and the woman within an hour of her con- finement; the husband and another strange man were in the room. You have the greatest trouble to turn the husbands out, and perhaps there is another man in the Toom and a heap of children, whereas among our own people, they would all be cleared out before you were .sent for. They are utterly indecent; they are not fit to be among English people. , 9429. (Chairman.) You have spoken of these rooms being overcrowded; for instance, where there are three beds in a room ?—-Yes, I have seen it, my Lord. 9430. I suppose you have seen all this when carrying on your business ?—I have, my Lord. 9431. Have you found these rooms have been occupied at a time when your patient, whom you were attending, was ill ?—I have to turn them out. 94^2. You do get them out?- of trouble sometimes. 9433. Of course, you have seen, except at the time of this illness, there are a good many people sleeping in on© room ?—Yes. 9434. Have you ever known the sanitary inspector or the sanitary authorities come and deal with any house except a lodging-house ?—No, I liave not, to my great surprise. These people do not seem to get visited like our own people do. They would very soon stir us up if we lived like pigs in a sty. ' 9436. I suppose you do not have many of these cases in a lodging-house ?—No, not in what they call lodging- houses. 9436. Not in a lodging-house?—I have had them years gone by, when I was connected with the Whitechapel Union, but not lately. -Yes, with a great.deal 9437. With regard to what you said just now, have Mrs. Ayres. you seen the sanitary inspector come into the house and —^ object to the number of people occupying it ?—I have 31 July 190$. heard of it, but I have not seen it myself. . 9438. Do the sanitary authorities visit any house ex- ~ - cept the lodging-houses ?—I believe so, occasionally. 94^9. You suggest that there is some favour shown to the foreigners ?—I believe in many instances they are bought over—that is my opinion. 9440. I am sure you would not like to say that unless a you could prove it?—That is my opinion. 9441. Who do you say is bought over ?—-Very many, I believe. I have persons who could come and give evi- dence here who are ashamed or afraid to come, and it is « very possible that they have been. 9442. I am referring to the sanitary inspection. We want to get a better inspection if we can ?—You should have some lady inspectors, who could go inside and look at the place and at the dirt. Men do not visit like that^ 9443. I want to know whether there has been any visitijig of our English people's houses by the sanitary inspectors ?—I have not heard of it. 9444. These alien or English houses are not inspected unless they are registered lodging-houses?—I suppose .. * not, but that is a matter that I could not say much on. r 1 * 9445. I wish you had not said they were bribed?—It seems to me so. I* cannot prove it. I am simply giving you my opinion. 9446. I am speaking of sanitary inspectors, and they are answerable to the ratepayers and everybody else ? 1 he places are certainly not visited as they ought to be. i emale visitors would do more than our present sanitary inspectors. 9447. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not think jou quite clearly understood me when I put my previous question. With regard to the bitterness of feelin* which exists, would you say that there was a sort of smouldering feeling of injury ?—There is an under- current of very bitter feeling against these people. They are such unpleasant neighbours. 9448. Would you anticipate bad results from f-hatU- 1 think it is very likely there will be. Mr. William Jambs Cox, called ; and Examined. 9449. (Lord Hothschild.) You live in the Hoxton Division of Shoreditch ?—I did live in the Hoxton Division of Shoreditch. 9450. You know all about that neighbourhood ?—Yes my Lord. ; 9451. Could you explain to us something about tiie rise inr rents ?—Yes, I wish to show the Commissioners it is not only the people of Stepney and the immediate neighbourhood who have been driven out of I heir homes and businesses by the aliens. For instance, take Red Xion Street, Kingsland Road, Hoxton, containing about 50 houses. Five or six years ago there was not one Jew or alien living there. Now at the present time there are not more than six English families living there, and no doubt they will have to clear out of Shore- ditch, and it will make the street a litle Jerusalem. 9452. Can you explain how it is that the aliens have driven out the English in Hoxton?—Not exactly. It •suited1 them to come there, I expect. _ 9453. How can they pay a higher rent?—That I will show as I go on. It is' overcrowding. Then with regard to the rise of rents. The rent of these houses formerly was from 8s. to 9s. per week, but since being owned by a Jew or alien landlord they are lis. per week, and I believe in some houses the rent is more than lis. Then with regard to key money or blood money. A few years ago I rented a shop in Red Lion Street, which was entirely empty of fixtures, etc., and I went to the ex- pense of having it fitted up as a general shop, which cost me ^ about £20, and I found it very hard indeed, having worked hard and worked up a connection, to have to sell ^ it at a. very bad price through the foreigners coming to live down there. 9454. Is that your own case ?—Yes. The worst of that was when 1 had got -a customer for it my Jew land- tenanfmande<1 &5 h°m b?fore Ile would the rJmf; ^ out?-No, he did not turn i f 1 ge, out because my trade fell off, and " bsolutely useless to me. I cannot compete with the aliens. .ho Englishman can compete with them. I could not sell what they want—" sauer-kraut." I could Ti11' wanted £5 from me before he would accept the new tenant, but after I went to some expense and trouble he took £3. 9456. You paid.him £3?—I paid him £3, what for I cto not know. 9457. And now you are in the same place ?—No I have sold the shop for £15 less than what I should ve got if I had sold it before the Jews started coming down there. I had a lot of applicants, but when they saw the foreigners down there they held off. They said to me: "You have- got Jews down here." I had- a lot of people after it, but they all said: " You have got Jews coming down here." They held off, and would not buy because they saw the Jews coming down «W*6, n of Messrs- Batty's carmen said to me: Mr. Cox, you ought to sell that shop ; it is a. good little shop, but there are Jews, and that is why you . cannot sell." Then with regard to. overcrowding. In most of these houses there are families in each "room and m the summer months they have been known to sleep in .the yards, which, you must .admit, is very objectionable and indecent, and they can be overlooked from the 'backs of the houses opposite. This can be verified by the people who live in Langdale Street Kingsland Road, which is a street backing on to Red Lion Street. No Englishman would do such a thina as sleeping m the yard in summer time. Thea with regard to the number in each house. This can be found out Ivr taking the last census, and if a truthful report is "iven Mr. W. J. Com.312 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : \l J«lf 1902. Mr. which I for one doubt, you will find there was over- Com. crowding to the utmost. That. I have seen with my own eyes. One of the houses down there is nothing else but a lodging-house without a licence. 9458. {Major Evans-Gordon.) How long do you say you were living in Haggerston ?—Five to six years. 9459. How long ago?—Two and a-half years ago. 9460. Did the change in population! and the influx of foreigners begin then?—Before I got out. That is why I sold my place. I should have been in now if the Jews had not started coming down there. 9461. Their inclination is not to deal with you in your business ?—No, it is not. They come from Petti- coat Lane with basket loads of stuff. They never came into my place without it was for change. 9462. What you wish to point out is that this inflow of foreigners is now spreading out to Haggerston and Shoreditch ?—Yes, that is what I have come here for. It is not only in Stepney. 9463. It is not conimed to this part of London?— No. 9464. It is now going into Hackney?—Yes. 9465. And if it goes on it will spread further still ?" There is not the slightest doubt. 9466. And must do ?—It must do. There is not the slightest doubt about that. If you go into Victoria. Park Road there are buildings there which were solely occupied by English five or six years ago, but now there are nothing but Jews. 9467. What is your business ?—I am a journeyman- plumber. 9468. Did aliens and foreigners open shops of the same kind in your street ?—I had a general shop for the wife to look after. There was only one general shop* in the street. 9469. The main part of your evidence is that it is no longer a proper description of this question to say that it is confined to Stepney ?—Most decidedly not. jjfr# Thomas Simmons, cal r, Simmons. ' . 9470. (Mr. Vallance.) You are living at 3, Pedal Place, Barking?—Yes. 9471. Are you a married man ?—Yes. 9472. And what family have you?—Four. 9473. What is the nature of your employment ?—I am in the carbonising department of the Beckton Gas- works. 9474. Are you correctly described as a fire raker?— Yes. 9475. How long have you been so employed?— Seventeen years. • 9476. And you call yourself a casually employed workman ?—Yes. 9477. How frequently, as a casual workman, would you obtain employment there ?—Five to six months. 9478. It is during the season?—Yes. 9479. You know that two men have given/ evidence before this Commission from the Beckton Gasworks ; do you say that in winter there are some 2,500 men employed there in that department?—Yes. , * 9480. How many of those would be aliens?—Seven ' ' hundred to eight hundred would be aliens. 9481. When these aliens are taken on, are they taken on while good English workmen are waiting out- side?—They would rather take them on. 9482. Do you know why they would take them on ? —No. 9483. Have you no reason to suppose why ?—No. 9484. (IChairman.) Do they get the same wages?— Yes. 9485. (Mr. Vallance.) And work the same hours? —And work the same hours. 9486. Are these foreigners who were employed there Jews?—No, Russian Poles. 9487. Not necessarily the Jewish persuasion?—No. 9488. What is the state of feeling on the works between the English and the Poles ?—It is getting a bitter feeling. When you talk to them they say: "English no good." 9489. When they make those remarks, are they made without any provocation on the part of the English workmen ?—Yes, I believe so. 9490. Do the English workmen taunt them at all? —Yes, we talk to them, but a lot of them do not speak. Yfe are told to tell them certain things when we are left in charge. 9491. And then they retaliate?—Yes. 9492. Do you consider that in taking • on this number of Poles the management are showing any improper favouritism ?—I could not say; the fore- men do. 9493. Have you any reason to suppose that they are taken on for any other reason than the judgment of the foreman or person in authority that they are the best workmen presenting themselves without regard to race ? —They are not the best workmen. 1 in; and Examined. 9494. You would not say that they take them on because they are the best ?—No. 9495. (Chairman.) Why do they take them on?—I do not know. 9496. (Mr. Vallance.) How many would be waiting for employment at one time ?—The last time there were 25 of us—10 Russian Polea taken on, and 15 had to- come away. 9497. There were 25 of you waiting; how many of those were- English workmen ?—I suppose about 11 English. 9498. As near as you can tell, and about 14 foreigners f —Yes. 9499. What was the process; in what way were they picked out?—The foreman goes np and says, u ou, you, you," and tells them. 9500. Does he pick out the strongest fellows—the men likely to do the best day's work ?—I could not say. 9501. When the casual workmen are taken on, where do they lodge for the most part ?—They go home. 9502. Do any of them remain at all ?—In 1896 some of the Russians slept in the coke-hole. 9503. Are they permitted by the management to sleep there?—I suppose so. 9504. It is not known, and they are supposed to leave the works when their work is done, the same as the' others ?—Certainly. 9505. Have you yourself seen them sleeping there?— Yes. 9506. Not a very pleasant atmosphere?—No, sulphur and smoke. 9507. Are we to imply that these men can sleep there and endure this objectionable atmosphere where an English workman could not?—Yes; and not only that, but I have seen them come off the eight hours shift and follow another one. There are 14 retort houses and one which they call the hot gas house; you never see a Russian go there. That is the only house where you never see a Russian. 9508. Are we to understand that a man who goes on- at 2 o'clock to 10 goes on again?—He will be there in the morning and come off at 2; another gang goes on from 10 to 2, and from 2 to 6 again. 9509. Are we to understand that you have known, cases of men coming on to work at 6 o'clock in the morn- ing and ceasing at 2, and then joining another gang for another eight hours' work?—Yes. 9510. Was not that known to the management ?—It is- known ; we must not do it; we ought to know better. 9511. Is it possible for a man to do honest work for' the second eight hours ?—-I am sure I do not know. 9512. Have you anything to say with reference to that club in Silvertown?—-That is common talk that Mir. Shepherd held the club as a secretary for the Russians, and they presented him with a gold watch;, and I have also seen Davis, who had 15 fire rakers and only two of: them English.MINUTES OF. EVIDENCE, 313 9513. Who i s Shepherd ?—A'stage foreman. 9514. Do y<>u say that this Shepherd, who is a fore- man of the carbonisiiig gaia^/ also kept a club in Silver- fefc n ?—That is the common talk. 9515. You do not know it of- your own knowledge ?— No. 9516. Is it a fact that there was a presentation made to him ?—That is also common talk. 951.7. You do not know it from your own knowledge ?—. No.. 9518. Is there anything else you wish to say in con- nection with this club ?-^I. hope, my Lord, you will protect us some way or another. I do not know how we are going on in the generations coming on. Some- thing ought to be done. That is why I have come from "Beckton to speak. 9519. {Chairman.) What do you say ought to be done ? —Something ought to bo done to stop all these aliens •tjoming here. 9529. (Mr. Vallance.) When these men are selected, the other .men are left unamployed?—Yes. 9521. Are these men, those who are rejected, left un- employed for any considerable time ?—They take their •chance. 9522. Could the foreman obtain at the Beckton Gas- works the necessary labour without resort to these aliens?—Yes, stopping Russian Poles. , .9523. Supposing the aliens had been stopped, would "there have been for the purposes of the Beckton Gas- works a sufficient amount of labour available ?-—Yes. 9524. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How long have you been working at these works at Beckton ?:—Seventeen years. 9525. When did the foreigners- begin to be employed ? —Most of them when I first recollect in 1896, in the biggest house, where Shepherd was. 9526. In 1896 they began then coming in. Are they increasing now since 1896 ?—Rapidly. 9527. Where do they live ?'—In Silvertown, and Wool- wich. 9528. Would you call these Poles skilled artizans or , . Mr. ordinary labourers ?—Only labourers, sir. T, Simmons, 9529. They are not skilled artizans, and they are not t33"i on Jews ?—They are Russian Poles. ' ^ 9530. Do you know whether are Roman Catholics ?—No. 9531. Has one of these foreign men ever been given the work in preference to yourself ?—Yes. 9532. Ho has ?—Yes. 9533. Are you aware that the secretary of the Beckton Gasworks has written to this Commission contradicting the statement made by two witnesses who came up here before ?—If the secretary went on to the stage he would see that he has made a mistake. 9534. He made that contradiction, and you assert that the evidence given before by two of your fellow workmen was correct, and true,- and you corroborate that evidence?—Yes, absolutely. 9535. (Chairman.) Why is this preference given ?—I could not answer. 9536. Of course, you are not likely to admit that they are better workmen, but if the wages are the same for the same number of hours, why is preference given to one m?n over another ?—I do not know. 9537. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say there is an alien club run in Silvertown for these people—a social club 1-—Yes. 9538. Exclusively occupied by aliens, the members are all aliens, among these Russian Poles ?—Yes. 9539. And did you say anything about a testimonial being given to a member ?—Yes, that is the common talk, 9540. You do not know yourself ?—No. 9541. It is common talk that a testimonial is given to the man who engages them?—Yes.' 9542. (Chairman.) Can nobody but a foreigner belong to this club ?—I could not answer that. ......9543. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How long has this fore- man you speak of been there ?—I could not answer how long, it was before I went there. 9544. (Chairman.) How long was that ?—Seventeen years ago. Mr. William Say, t 9545. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where do you live?—2, King Street, Tower Hill. 9546. What are you by trade ?—Umbrella maker and hawker. 9547. Where were you born?—In Christian Street, St. George's. 9548. You have lived there all your life ?—No, I lived there until my father died, when I was about the age of three, and then my mother shifted to the top of Leman _ Street, and I lived there until she died, and' then I be- came of age to look after myself. 9549. How long altogether do you say you have lived in the borough of Stepney?—It is 39 years since I was Iborn, and I have never been out of it. 9550. You know what the borough of Stepney now is —Whitechapel, Limehouse, and so on?—Yes. 9551. What were you first employed as ?—I was first ^employed as a coal boy, to take out coals, at No. 1, Little Alie Street, and later on, when I grew old enough to understand the umbrella business that my brother was following, I took to that. That is making them up, repairing them, and selling them in the City. Then I saved a little money, and I took the same business that I had been coal boy at. 9552. What business was that ?—The greengrocers and coal business, No. 1, Little Alie Street. 9553. Why did you leave ?—Because I was compelled to leave it; because when I first took to the trade it was very comfortable, and I could get a living there, but as my people were being driven out of the neigh- , bourhood the aliens came in, and it was an impossi- bility for me to live amongst them, because they would not deal with me. They deal with their own people, so -I had to give it up or else starve. 9554. You gave it up?—Yes. 6144 Lied ; and Examined. 9555. Then what did you do ?—Then I went back to my business again—-the umbrella business. 9556. You have seen in those years a great change in the neighbourhood ?—Yes. 9557. Your own people going out and the foreigners coming in?—Yes; in fact, hardly one of mine is left now. 9558. You know about the overcrowding, and so on, and have you come -across 'that ?—Oh, yes. 9559. And the high rents ?—There was a house in Christian Court, Rupert Street, that is the next turning to Leman Street. It was let at 6s. a week to English families, and the aliens were waiting upon the collector or landlord as he called round for the rents at a certain hour on Monday morning, and offered him more money a week for the house, and likewise a few pounds for the key, which encouraged the landlord, or the agent, to put on more rent for the house, telling the tenant who was in it he would have to pay more rent for the house, or else he would have to go. 9560. Was he an English tenant who had to get out? —Yes. 9561. That is the process we have heard so much about of raising the rent and clearing out the English tenant?—Yes. 9562. And then filling the house with a large number of foreigners ?—Yes. This house, which was let at 6s. a week, was taken by an alien family, and they had three more families besides themselves. 9563. What rent did they pay ?—10s. 9564. You were in the greengrocery business ?—Yes. 9565. Do you know anything about the costermonger^s trade there ?—Yes. B R314 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. W. Say. 9566. You were interfered with in that ?—I was not in- — terfered with, but I could see daily from my fellow-men 31 July 1902. who were getting their living out in the street the same as myself, though not with fruit, but with other things, that they were being starved out as fast as they could be. 9567. Numbers of these foreign people are making their livelihood in the street?—There are two to one in the city. When I first went to the city they were mostly all native Englishmen or Irish people. 9568. Do they open little shops, too?—Yes, but they first outdo our British costermongers by selling fruit at a penny a pound less than they can afford to sell it. 9569. How do you account for that?—That I account for because their living is so miserable, and they can exist on much less a day and save money. 9570. They can do with a lower profit ?—They can do with a lower profit. 9571. How do these people start in the coster trade ? —I have had conversations with one or two of them. I have no proof, but I have been told they get money lent to them from the Jewish Relief Fund or the Jewish Board of Guardians. 9572. They give them a start?—They lend it to them without interest, and allow them to pay it back as they can. 9573. You say there is disorder in the Commercial Road caused by aliens?—Yes; I have had several com- plaints from several of the chaps, saying that as they go home at night they get so thick and strong there as they turn out of the clubs that if they merely happen to knock up against them there is a blow for them. 9574. The feeling of the costermongers is very bitter about being turned out ?—It could not be more bitter unless it came to something very serious. 9575. Do you say the increase of these foreign coster- mongers obliges them to open markets in new streets ?— Yes; John Street, Samuel Street, Wilson Street, Lang- dale Street, Umberstone Street, where the barrows now are. 9576. Stationary ?—They just move, I suppose, if they see a policeman coming. 9577. They are turning these streets gradually into markets ?—Yes; it is very hard work for the police to turn them out. 9578. Do the shopkeepers suffer ?—Yery much. 9579. You have known many instances of shopkeepers suffering?—I have. I have counted 20 from here to Leman Street, old-standing shops. 3. Is the competition confined to the tailoring and boot-making trades ?—It embraces all trades. Take, for instance, a shop in Cannon Street; there was an old pork outcher of the name of Hartley. I used to go to his shop as a little boy to get sausages. The aliens have come into the neighbourhood, and that shop has had to be shut up, and the man has had to go away. 9581. That is because they do not happen to eat sausages ?—They do not eat pork. 9582. With regard to the other trades, would you say there was competition in such trades as glaziers', and so on?—They have always had that trade in their own hands, and I have never seen anything else but an alien, glazier. 9583. In your lifetime?—Yes, not without it has been, new work sent out to a firm to be glazed. 9584. And mineral waters—do they make those?—> They manufacture them, and they sell them at a half- penny a bottle retail. 9585. You would say altogether there has been a total change in the neighbourhood since you have known it, and a change which is detrimental to our own people ?— Yes. I am open to take you, gentlemen, for two hours' walk round, and we will pass 50 houses now that are now inhabited by these people which were all inhabited by English people 25 years ago. 9586. (Lord Rothschild.) Do I understand you to say that you established your greengrocery and coal business in Alie Street ?—I had a greengrocer's and coal business, bat I did not establish it, because it was established before I took it. 9587. You said the population in Alie Street has changed now?—Not only Alie Street, but the other streets. 9588. Has Alie Street changed lately?—Yes. 9589. If it has changed it has become a Christian population, because Alie Street has been occupied by Jews for 100 years?—Yes, by Jews, but not by alieis Jews. 9590. (Chairman.) Do you say they were British Jews- before?—They were English Jews and our own people in Alie Street, and I know one alien Jew who owns a large amount of property in Alie Street. 9591. (Lord Rothschild.) There is a large greengrocer's shop in Alie Street, and it has been there for 30 years ?— No, there is not. There is a Jew opposite named Harris,, who came there, so the aliens would go to him and not to an English person, to deal with. He has not been here long, because before he was there the shop was occupied by a marine store dealer. Mr W, Coles. Mr. William Coles, called; and Examined. 9592. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where do you live?— 102, Brunswick Street, Hackney Road. 9593. And before that where did you live?—Before that I lived in Islington. 9594. Is Hackney Road, where you live, in the Hag- gerston Division of Shoreditch?—Yes. 9595. How long have you lived there ?—Eight years. 9596. During that time have you seen a change in the population ?—A very great change. 9597. In Shoreditch ?—Yes. 9598. Give us briefly the nature of the change?—The change occurred when the foreign landlords came down. d. Buying up house property?—Yes; we lived in peace and quietness until about 3J years ago, and then some foreigners came down and bought the property, not only in Brunswick Street, but Schofield Street, and Great Portland Street, and Weymouth Terrace. Imme- diately they purchased the property they raised the rents. 9600. How long ago was this ?—About three years ago. When they bought the property the houses were going at a fair rent—what I considered a fair rent, from 13s. 6d. to 14s.; I myself was paying £25 a year. I was on a. monthly tenancy. A week after the foreigner bought the property, I had a letter to inform me that my house would be £32 a year. The other tenants were raised from 14s. to 17s. a week. I thought I would save something, and I would do as the other tenants were doing, and would go as a weekly tenant, but he was one with me, and he told me I should have to pay another Is. a week, because I did not come under the scale. So I reconciled myself to another Is. Then a neighbour of mine had a little shop with five rooms, and kept a chandler's shop. At the time this property w.as pur- chased he was about to sell his business. He had an offer of £50 for it, and he was about to sign the contract when the purchaser inquired who the landlord was, and when he heard his name was Cohen he said, " I will not. give you 20s. for it," and he lost his would-be buyer at £50. 9601. To your knowledge, have a number of English people been displaced here in these houses that have- been bought?—Yes. 9602. Is that change of population going on now?— Yes, it is going on now, because every time an English- man comes out a foreigner goes in—not every time, but. nearly every time, a foreigner takes his place. 9603. You would say that the alleged evils which exist in this part of 'London are spreading rapidly to Shoreditch and Haggerston ?—Not only rapidly, but they have spread there. I took a walk last week? when I was out on business, and I made it my business to call on a certain street in Hackney Road—I think it was Ravenscroft Street. I had not been down there for years, but I knew it was occupied by English work- ing men—cabinet-makers. I went into the first four shops, but I did not find an Englishman; they were all foreigners in the cabinet line. 9604. You say generally it is spreading rapidly there P ■—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 315 D605. What are you by trade?—A sawyer. 9606. Have you suffered in your trade?—Yes, we find they compete with us very thickly. They are cutting prices down so that we cannot pay wages that are would like to pay. 9607. How do you account for that?—They employ mo skilled labour; in many instances they employ boys, and they work for longer hours, and they work for a lot less money. 9608. And they pay less rent?—They pay more rent than we do, but they put more in the houses. 9609. It comes to the same thing ?—Yes. I could Mr. W, Coles tell you of a place in Brunswick Street that was 14s. a - week. The foreign landlord bought it and built a work- 31 July 1902 shop in the backyard. He took almost the whole of - the yard, and there was a workshop upstairs and down- stairs, and the people had to do their washing in a little space 4 feet wide in the open air. I did not see any other convenience there for them. These workshops are let at 10s. for the bottom one, and 10s. for the top one, and the houses are let at 23s. a week each. The whole place used to be 14s. a week, and now they are fetching 45s. Mr. William Bradford, called; and Examined. jy. Bradford. 9610. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Were you born in St. Cleorge's ?—Yes. 9611. Do you live there now ?—-No, I live at Manor Park. 9612. Are you an undertaker by profession ?—Yes. 9613. You lived in Cannon Street Road ?-—Yes. 9614. You have your business there still?—No. I am in Manor Park. 9615. Have you occupied any public positions in St. ♦George's?—I was a vestryman for six years, I was churchwarden for two- years, I was chairman of the Sanitary Committee for two years, and member of other committees as well. 9616. In the time that you lived in St. George's you "have seen a change in the population of which we have Ibeen speaking?—Yes. I was born there. 9617. Did it affect you personally?—Yes. 9618. 'In your business ?—Yes. 9619. How ?—By the English, or the Christian, popu- lation being driven out. Of course, that affected me very much. 9620. Your business went down?—Yes. 9621. You lost your customers?—Yes. The people died just the same, but the Jewish or the Hebrew population, of course, don't deal with a Christian. It is nothing to do with the question of the people not 4ying. 9622. They have their own religious> observances with regard to their funerals ?—Yes. 9623. Is there anything else that you would like to mention ?—The main thing that I come here to speak ;about is on the question of St. George's—what it was few years ago and what it is now. I was born here, and my mother was born in the same house. We have Tiad that house in Cannon Street Road since 1818. It was all a Christian or an English population. But, as years went on, so it gradually got to be an alien population, and, as that went on, it was natural that there was no chance of getting a living there. There was John Street, St. George's Court, Marmaduke 'Street, Langdale Street, Samuel Street, Umberstone "Street, all of which were inhabited by Christians, and now they are all occupied by aliens. 9624. There has been a great change in the popula- tion ?—-Decidedly. 9625. And a great displacement of our own; people in consequence?—Yes, and I can assure you when I was chairman of the sanitary committee, we found the *cause of the high rents that were paid was the way they lived. Take Waterloo Buildings, there were only two Tooms in the place, and there would be a family, just ^enough to fill it, or a little bit more than ought to fill it, and yet there were lodgers in the place. 9626. When you were chairman of the sanitary •committee, did you take steps to abate this nuisance of -overcrowding 1UWe ordered our sanitary officers to visit in the middle of the night, and at all hours, and we tried every way we could. The sanitary officers we arranged should go from four to six in the morning. It was no use going at 10 or 11 at night. 9627. Was any action taken or prosecutions, or anything of that kind?—Yes, and they were fined. 9628. (Chairman.) Were these lodging houses?—No, ordinary houses. 9629. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You proceeded under the,Act?—Yes, under which the sanitary authority has to be empowered by the order of a Justice of the Peace. They used to go in the middle of the night. 9630. There was no question of bye-laws ?—No, it was nothing to do with the Lodging House Act. 9631. (Chairman.) About how many convictions did you obtain ?—I have not the number. 9632. Were they numerous or only a few?—Numer- ous. 9633. What do you call "numerous," 30 or 40?—Oh yes, during the time. 9634. What was the time?—Two years I was the chairman of the sanitary committee. 9635. (Major Evans-Gordon.) 30 or 40 fines were inflicted at those times?—Yes. 9636. But the overcrowding was not abated?—We abated it as far as we cquld. The question was know- ing it. 9637. But it grew up again ?—Yes, that is the way, when you go and give them a notice they get out of the house, and they - are not there, and when you go round to the other place, they come back again. That is the way they did, and that is what we found. They go out of one house and go into another. 9638. (Chairman.) Did you take any care as to what would become of the people after the convictions, and when they had to be turned out of the house what became of them ?—We did not do that. The pro- ceedings were against the landlord or the householder to abate the nuisance. 9639. That is on a conviction. The people were turned out, and they came back again ?—They turn out and go somewhere else, and you find them in another place. 9640. Could they find accommodation elsewhere?— In the parish, do you mean ? 96411. Yes ?—No. 9642. If the people are, as we are told this evening, bound to live in the locality in order to be near their work, where are they to go if they are turned out by conviction or by the landlord ?—That I do not know, because that is the evil; and I thought what we were here about was to show that it is impossible for any- body to oret a house here, on account of the number of aliens who are coming in day after day, and filling up all the place. There is no chance of the Christian people getting in. 9643. We have come here to examine you, to see if you can help us to find a remedy for it, and I am asking you if you can help us ?—I cannot say that. I cannot give you a remedy. I can merely give you a statement of the facts. 9644. You have given us the more difficult task— that is, to find a remedy?—Yes. <6144. SR 2316 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr, A. W. Mr. Alfred William Ca1 Cavalier. 1 July 1902. 9645. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You have lived in — ■— Stepney all your life ?—Yes. 9646. How many years is that ?—46. 9647. "You are in the milk trade ?—Yes. some' thousands live in the common lodging- houses. 9702. (Chairman.) Where is Spitalfields, geographi- cally ?—It is in Stepney. Spitalfields lies just behind. Bishopsgate Street. We are ■ quite close to Aldgate, and lie practically between Aldgate and Shoreditch. 9703. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is in the borough, of Stepney. It is part of the parliamentary division of Whitechapel and part of .the municipal borough of Stepney ?—Yes. There is no question about it, that there is a very strong feeling bn the'parlt of the English people, not only against the alien Jewish population, but al&o in their favour. A very large section of the English people have very great respect for the Jewish people. 9704. (Chairman.) Speaking locally or generally?— I am speaking entirely of my knowledge of Spitalfields. 9705. (Lord Bothschild.) Theret are 15,000 Jews ?— Yes. 9706. And how many others ?—Rather under 10,000 —we are rather under 25,000 people. The reason why there is'this intense feeling., is because it' is within the memory of men of 40 or 50 years of age that a time existed when the English gogulation was ^npt displaced a.s it3is ;h<)w,. and they feel that they haye Be^n ousted from one of the . jnost desirable residential -portions of London, because It is so extremely convenient for work- ing people. Some 25 or 27 years .ago. the late Pre- bendary Harry Jones says this (and your Lordships will get some idea of how rapid the change has been wh&ii I 'read this * short quotation). His book was called East and West London. At thai time he was made rector of St. George's-in-the-East. He had been vicar of a church in Westminster, and he says: "There,"' meaning Westminster, " an artisan in receipt of good wages is frequently obliged to content himself with one apartment "—that is in Westminster—u which serve® for all purposes, and for which he pays some 5s. or 6s. a week. But here," meaning Stepney, St. George's-in- the-East and that district," he can get a whole house of four rooms with a commodious yard at the back for the, same sum." Now we pay that for one room.. 9707.(Chairman1.) Thai is 27 years ago?—Yes;.' Of? •course, there are whole streets now— street after, street —in which'you get no English people at all. You. may 1 possibly here and there find one family inhabiting one- or two' ro orris. But take niy own. street for example, , which is supposed to be, perhaps,, the best street an the ^ parish.; I think there are about 35 houses, in the .street^ .and with the exception of the two houses, my r rectory and a house I have for my church-workers,, there are only three houses in which Christians, or - .English people, have any kind of interest whatever.... All the rest are Jewish—most respeotaMe people they// care, too. May I point out another thing ? I am quot- ing .lio^. not the census figures of last year, which:-,. - would .Bring out my point rather more strongly, but:... 1 am taking now the previous census, arid, according t@> that census, the population per acre for the whole of * Xondoiri was 57. 9708.. (Chairman.) What does London mean there?— The Coumty Council area, I believe. 9709. "I recollect Mr. Low saying it was 6 per acre; biat then that is in "the Mdiropolitan area?—The re- ference, I understood, when I read the figures was, that it referred to to the County Council area—The County Coraneil, London. 9710i That would be a smaller margin than the Me- tropolitan Police area ?—-A great deal. Taking; it to. be 57 persons to' the acre, may I come to my particular part of. London, that I have known best. T will take Bethnal GreenJ Which, at that time, some eight or nine years ago, was very little affected by the alien immigration. It is much affected now: Bethnal Green had a population of 175 to the acre. Now we* come to the Jewish quarter of Whiteclxapel and Spital- fields, and there you get in Whitechapel a population of 195 to the acre, and in Spitalfields 333 to the acre. 9711. (Chairman.) Does not this depend a great deal 8 Dec. 1902.,318 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : BMW. H. JDavies. 8 D&e. 1902. on the " blockishness " with which the buildings take place. If you get large streets and parks, like there are throughout London, there is a great deal of vacant space. You have no vacant space?—We have nothing less than two miles away. An area is not necessarily congested, because a great number of people dwell upun it. The same number of people living on the margin of Victoria Park and occupying the same space you would not regard as a congested population. We are two miles from any open space-—that is Victoria Park. 9712. Would you tell us what inference you draw from this very high percentage to the acre?—The in- ference I draw is this : That the people who come to us are not artisans—in no sense can a very large number of them be called artisans. They work for very small wages—they pay very high rents, and the rents only can be paid by the rooms being sub-let. What I feel is this : You will get overcrowding quite1 as great amongst English people, but they are not in the same social scale, that is to say, that English people having the same income that certain Jewish people have, would live under better conditions. They would afford more for accommodation. 9713. {Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to the overcrowding generally, you read a paper at a con- ference called by the White chapel Board of Guardians ? —I did. It formed the basis of a discussion. The Whitechapel Board of Guardians were dealing with the ■ question of overcrowding, and they were conscious of the awful extent to which it existed in their own area, and they asked me if I would write them a short paper to introduce the subject for discussion, and I did. 9714. I should be very grateful if you would read that to us now, because every point of it is germane to what we are discussing. It is short, and sums up very much what you have to say ?—" Within 100 years there . has come into existence a vast agglomeration of cities, which we now call ' London,' and whereas the London of 1801 contained only 950,000 souls, the London of 1901 reckons its inhabitants at 6,000,000. The provi- sion of house accommodation has not kept pace with the increased population, and there has, consequently, re- sulted congestion and overcrowding, both as re- gards room and as regards areas. For SO years we have been squeezing each other into more confined quarters. Houses, once tenanted by a. single family, now have a family, often with lodgers, in each room. Great model dwellings have risen where once two-storied cottages stood, and the number of persons per acre, in the poorer districts -especially, has risen enormously. Unhappily, the Whitechapel Union in its Spitalfields district, over- tops any district I know in point of overcrowding. For all London the average number of persons per acre is '57. For Bethnal Green, it is 171. For Whitechapel, it is 195. For Spitalfields, it is 330. Where poverty most abounds, congestion is greatest, the demand for rooms keenest, and rents highest. The rent demanded is frequently quite beyond the power of the wage- earner of the family to pay. But he secures the rooms and takes in lodgers. I know two rooms where a poor family lives. The earnings of the man are small. Th© rent is high. At ten o'clock at night the family re- tire from the kitchen to the bedroom, and a gentle- -manly-looking man, with frock coat and silk hat enters the vacated kitchen, and makes his bed on the floor. He helps to pay the rent. From one of my parochial ^buildings I have seen through the thinly-veiled wm- - dows of a house, four men and six women retiring for "the night in one room, the rent of which, is 8s. a week—all of them respectable hard-working people, . and the majority of them sleeping in beds on the .'floor." 9715. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would those be Jewish - people ?-—Yes, I am simply taking what I have seen ;from my own rectory window. 9716. Were they Jewish aliens?—Y'es, entirely, those -were. 9717. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Quite new comers?—Yes, they may have been here two years, but they could not speak any English, whatever. 9718. Were they new arrivals ?—I thought you spoke of the ten people I saw in this house. 9719. You said they were Jewish aliens, I want to know what class of aliens—were they new; arrivals ? _X should think they may have been here six months or two years, but they had practically no knowledge of English. 9720. (Chairman.) Not naturalised?—No. "I have had men with their wives and children, and with money in their pockets, come to me and appeal to me to find them rooms in which to live. At one of our Christ- mas teas about 200 poor children were assembled." 9721. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Were those Christian children?—Yes, all Christian children. That was the tea of our Dorset Street area. That is an area where the people live almost entirely on what is called the furnished-room system. They have no home, and they do not live in lodging-houses, where children are not allowed to be, but they pay a shilling a night for a room, and in that room they get a bed, a table, a chair, and possibly, one or two saucepans, and you are , a nightly tenant, and pay your shilling every day, and a very large number of our people live in that way, and, if the shilling is not forthcoming, they have no home, and thus, frequently, they will take to the free shelters. There are three free shelters in London, two of them in Spitalfields. Altogether, I suppose, the free beds in London for the destitute come to between 700 and 800, and of these some 500 are in my parish. 9722. (Chairman.) They would be paying 7s. a week? —Yes, for a furnished room, and over. Now it is raised to 8s. in certain cases. But the very lowest they would pay would be Is. a night. 9723. Would not that pay the rent of a room ?—Yes, but they would have nothing to put into' it. They have no furniture. That is gone. It is very largely their own fault, but it is gone. Then, " At one of our Christmas teas, about 200 poor children were assembled. After tea, as they sat together, I asked : ' How many of you live in a one-roomed home ?' Every hand but seven went up. ' How many live in a two-roomed home ?' Seven hands went up. ' How many live in three rooms ? ' None. ' How many of you live in a ' furnished room' ? ' All but 12. So that, with the exception of those 12 children, all the rest were practically homeless, the wretched contents of a furnished room not being the property of the tenant, and the rent of Is. a day, or more, being paid in the great majority of cases daily." 9724. (Chairman.) As to those 200 children, were they the ordinary children of your school, or were they selected because they were poor ?—No, they come out of our poorest area; they are children who live in what is called our Dorset Street area, which is an area in which they almost entirely live in what are called furnished rooms. 9725. Do they represent the whole of that area—■ artisans and everyone—or are they poor children selected because they are very poor ? INo ; they are not selected. They are the children found in a particular area which is dealt with by one of mv mission halls. They are children who come naturally to the Sunday school, or whatever it may be, and they had their Christmas tea like any other section might have theirs. It simply shows that the children living in that par- ticular area are living under those particular conditions. 9726. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They are typical of that particular area ?—Yes. 9727. That is -the Dorset Street area?—Yes. 9728. (Chairman.) These particular conditions must represent extreme poverty ?—Oh, they do, undoubtedly. Then the paper goes on: "I have within the past few days had a census taken of one or two typical alleys and houses in my parish. In one alley there are 10 houses— 51 rooms, nearly all about 8 by 9 feet—and 254 people." Now they are all Christians, or, at all events, all Gentiles, and they are living in as overcrowded a con- dition—not quite, but almost, as overcrowded a condi- tion—as some of our Jewish population; but then they are people who, socially, are a long way below the social scale in which the aliens living in a similar state are. 9729. (Lord1 Bothschild.) They are below the aliens ?— Quite, socially. " In six instances only do two people occupy one room, and in other rooms the number varied from 3 to 9. In another court, with six houses and 22 rooms, were 84 people, again 6, 7, 8, and 9 being the number living in one room in several instances. In one house "—this is almost entirely Jewish—" with 8 rooms are 45 persons, one room Containing 9 persons, one 8, two 7, and another 6. For these 45 people there is one office ; and in the case of nearly all tenement houses the washing for the family must be done by the aid of a pail, which is put on the stove, and serves for a copper on washing days."MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 319 9730. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you mean by "office" closet?—Yes. There are practically no ovens, and such a thing as a home-made rice: pudding is un- known to the children. The Whitechapel Poor Law Union contains an enormous proportion of very poor, of casual labourers, and of men whom you can never describe as artisans. The poorer the person the greater the necessity for him to live near his work. But in many cases the very nature of a man's work compels him to live near it. May I instance our Spitalfields; Market? On market days in the summer the porters and others begin work at 4 o'clock in the morning, and throughout the year work begins every morning at 5 o'clock. What chance, too, has the dock labourer of work if Tie must live miles away from the docks and. take a railway journey before he can apply for, and begin, work? Men, women, and children are not herded together as we find them from choice," and so on. Then may I go to the next paragraph? 9731. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You might read that commencing, " Necessity compels, them to live within a certain area" ?—■" Necessity compels them to live within a certain area, and the smallness and uncertainty of their earnings, together with the high rent, deprive them of the power to live under proper conditions. The immigration of ooor aliens and also of poor provincials, especially into this district, is unquestionably answerable for much of the congestion and overcrowding which exists. The census of 1881 showed that there were 60,000 Germans, Russians, and Poles Living in London. In 1891 the number {had increased to 95,000. In the same period the number of Russians and Poles in Whitechapel had increased from 5,000* to 13,000; in St. George's in the East, from 500 to nearly 5,000; in Mile End, from 900 to 3,400. Many of these immigrants have a low standard of living. They are content to pay an exorbitant rent, because, having secured rooms., they intend to live under forbidden conditions. The land- lord knows this when he lets the house' to the tenant; the rent that he is to receive compels him to know it. The tenant knows it when he takes the house with the intention of sub-letting, so as at least to live rent free ; and the sub-tenants know that the taking of a lodger or two into their room will be winked at." 9732. {Chairman.) Do the forbidden conditions apply to overcrowding in the rooms or anything else ?—What I had in my mind was this—that if I took a room from you, and paid you £50 a year for the house, which is worth £30, you know something of my condition, and you know I cannot pay you £50 a year and know that your house cannot be made to pay that rent unless there is overcrowding. 9753. All I want to know is that " forbidden condi- tions" means overcrowding?—Yes. 9734. It is not sanitary conditions?—No. The sani- tary conditions, as a rule, are extremely good, distinctly so ; and that, to a large extent, explains how, in spite of our congestion, we are so free from disease. 9735. Are those sanitary conditions—which are good— carried out by the aliens themselves or by the landlords ? —By the landlords. All our buildings, for example, are most carefully inspected; and then in the great build- ings, such as Rothschild Building, Nathaniel Building, and all those, there is always a most competent man as caretaker, and he is constantly on the watch to see that the people are cleanly in their habits, and any defect is at once put right. "If I am the owner of a house already paying a fair rent, and a man offers me £20 to turn out the present tenant and an addition of £30 to the rent, I am bound to have my suspicions aroused, and you have a right, as citizens, to expect me to know how my property is going to be used." Now may I go to the bottom. " It may be fairly said that the alien has in this district been the cause, largely, of this increase in rents and of the decrease in the earning power of certain of the poor. On the other hand, the alien has introduced new industries. For example, in 1880 cheap German clothing was imported to the extent of £300,000. This has dwindled to almost nothing, cheap clothing being now made here of English cloth by foreign Jewish refugees. Slipper-making, cabinet- making, and the manufacture of picture frames have also advanced by the coming of foreign immigrants. And the Board of Trade. Report for 1899, issued in May last, on ' Emigration and Immigration,' states that, excepting perhaps in London, there has been no increase of destitute aliens ; and with regard to London, although the number of resident aliens is increasing, the amount of destitution amongst the Jewish population was less in 1899 than in the previous year. 9736. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is about all ol the statement that is important ?—That is ail I Hu;i read. 9737. (Lord Rothsdhild.) That was a paper you real for discussion?—Yes. 9738. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You discussed there the general question of overcrowding ?—Yes. 9739. Then, with regard to sub-letting, thab you have also dealt with?—Yes. Of course, a great num- ber of these men, and the women and children as well, who come from Russia, have a kind of trained en- durance. They can live as an Englishman cannot live. They can live with less comfort. They work from morning to night, and the poorer they are the worse they seem to be treated—the more they are at the mercy of relentless people. Take two buildings, one of our best buildings and one of our worst buildings. In the worst building you will find the people who are called the greeners with wretched accommodation, and paying a larger rent than the people who are in such buildings as Rothschild's and Lolesworth and Nathaniel Buildings. They are the victims of their own condition. 9740. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You would say that, generally speaking, the alien population has a lower standard of living than the Christian population ?— Distinctly. 9741. With regard to key-money, we have heard a lot about that; but I understand you can say something about it?—I have read some of the evidence given be- fore the Commission, and I cannot help feeling there has been a great deal of exaggeration as to the amount which is paid in key-money, and also there is some confusion. Key-money is of two kinds. First of all, key-money is paid to an outgoing tenant by somebody that he might have what I may call priority of applica- tion to the landlord. I know that my neighbour is leaving, or that somebody is leaving a house, and I want that house, and I pay him, it may be, 10s. if that person will give me the key and let ire be the first to apply for the premises that he is going to vacate. 9742. (Chairman.) Is that a mere symbol or is that an actual fact?—The actual fact. You actually have the key, anid go to the* person from whom the tenant originally has taken the house. I should come to you with the key in my hand, and I should say, " Mr. So- and-so is leaving the house; he has given me the key ; will you accept me as tenant ?" I should also take with me some evidence of respectability, and, nobody else knowing much about it, I am accepted. Then the other form is this : Perhaps there is a shop or premises which are very desirable for certain people; they will go behind the tenant, and make an offer of so much if the tenant can be turned out—if notice is given to the tenant. " If you will turn that tenant out, I will give you so much to have these premises, and I would not mind giving you rather a larger rent." 9743. (Chairman.) That is against the tenant?— Yes; it is simply ignoring the tenant in order to ac- quire premises ; but to my own knowledge, I should say, whilst the practice is common enough, I do not think the large sums which some people seem to think pass, do pass. 9744. What is the usual tenancy—weekly ?—A weekly tenancy. 9745. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is all indicative of the immense demand for house-room ?—Quite so. 9746. Then the foreign population, of course, has, had an effect on the English Sunday. Tell us how that is felt ?—That is one of the most deplorable phases of the immigration. I do not know to what extent the Commission is going to try to get evidence about the employment of aliens on Sundays, but I think that from what I have gathered, away from my own parish even, there are certain shops where I think you will find, in the whole of London, thousands of aliens are employed regularly on the Sunday. In one case I was told that nobody was allowed to use a certain shop on a particular Sunday, to see the King going to St. Paul's, because it would have exposed the enormous number of men and women working there on the Sim- day, Rev, Davies. 8 Dee. 1902.320 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : , 9747. {Chairman.) Working for what purpose?— , Dames. Doing their work. Being Jews, they are working on SrTW~7nno the Sunday; they have kept their Sabbath on the ! Saturday. 9748. Is it tailoring?—Yes; and boot-making. You will find on. Sunday mornings the gas engines are turned on. On the Saturday the shops are shut, the synagogues are filled, the machinery ceases, but Sun- day is precisely like any other working day. The Jewish employers are increasing in number, and the Englishmen who work for Jewish employers are in- creasing in numbers, too, and the rule is becoming more and more this—that the Englishman must keep the Jewish Sabbath, that is to say, he may not work son the Jewish Sabbath, but he must work on his Sun- «dmy. They do not work the whole of the Sunday. One ,r*cam appreciate the Jewish employers' difficulty, and if .an Englishman wants to work for a Jewish employer - ithat is the rule he has to conform to, to work half a . ;day on Sunday. "9749. What becomes of the English workman on/ "Saturday, when the Jewish workman does not work? —He is idle. That is his Sunday really; that is his off-day. Instead of having half of Saturday and the whole of Sunday, he gets the whole of Saturday and half Sunday. 9750. {Major Evans-Gordon.) He just turns it round ?—Yes. 9751. {Chairman.) Would that employment be given) by English Jews as well as by foreigners ?—Yes, I iMnk so, but to a less extent than by the Jew who chas recently come over. The difference is this: The longer a man has been in England, or, if he is an • English Jew, the greater is. his respect for English traditions; and he would not, for example, have his. furniture removed from one house to another on a : v Sunday. That is common now; and he would not have Ihis coke brought in on a Sunday; he would not allow the washing-day for the family to be a Sunday, and get - some poor Englishwoman to do it. The English Sunday is . becoming the Jewish washing-day. To be particular, the other day there was a building in front of me being . .altered, and a cartload of timber came. <9752. {Major Evans-Gordon.) On the Sunday?—■ " TTes I went up to one of my Jewish neighbours, and I said, ""This is a pity "; and he said, "I quite agree with you/' and we went and spoke to the Jew, who had only just come over from Russia, two months be- fore, and he spoke to him in Yiddish, and pointed out it was rather rough on the English people, and the man at once said, " I am very sorry," and took his load i away. If I may say so, I am certain the greatest good will result from this Commission in this respect. The . Jewish people are intensely reasonable, and they are . genuinely anxious not to offend the people of the country in which they have come to live. I am speak- ing in, this way because when they hear what our ^grievance is, and what it is we want remedied, I am -certain they will remove these things. So, if nothing else happens, I am sure that will be done. East London is becoming almost entirely Jev/ish in its owner- ship. 9753. {Chairman.) Your point is that not only ,Jewish workmen are employed on the Sunday, but that, to work with them, the Englishman has to come fin, too ?—Yes. 9754. Is that employment of the English Christian "to any great extent carried on?—It is becoming more and more common. It is not uncommon now. I sup- pose, in a particular factory I am thinking of now, where there are 100 altogether, 30 are English. 9755. They get their Saturday off. Do they object to the change of the holiday ?—They want employment, and I do not think they think much more about it. As a matter of fact, there are about as many Christians of that type as Jews. They are what they are merely in name. 9756. {Lord Bothsdhild.) You do not think there is much difference between them ?—I do- not. 9757. They have all got their virtues and faults alike?—Yes; Now, in a word, to put what may be the Englishman's grievance. First of all, there is no ques- tion that he does resent finding whole streets passing out of English ownership, and he does resent very much seeing the old businesses gone. The White- chapel Road now is almost entirely Jewish from one end to the other. 9758. You mean the Mile End Koad ?—-I mean the Whitechapel Road, up to the Cambridge Heath Road say; it has all occurred so rapidly. Of course, the chil- dren of the present generation will not notice it. It has occurred so rapidly. But their parents have seen family after family so rapidly wiped out, that, naturally, they feel it very strongly. Then they do feel their being displaced, and they feel very strongly two things ; first of all, that this alien immigration has raised rents, and it has lowered wages, owing to the fact that an enor- mous number of aliens come into this country who are not artisans, and have no trade, and are willing to work for very low wages, and do so, and the fact, that constantly people who have been getting, perhaps,. £1 a week, are ousted by a man who, to keep body and soul together, will work for a few shillings. One of our Jewish synagogues is being cleaned to-day by a greener—a Russian Jew—for 7s. or 8s. a week. 9759. (Lord Bothschild.) Which synagogue is that ?—■ I think, perhaps, I ought not to mention it. I will tell you privately. Then" another grievance is, that they say they will not support anybody but the Jew, and people who have lived for generations almost in small shops in our East-end streets, have entirely gone. People who have got mangles have had to go. English- men say : Here we have got a nation growing up within a nation. They will not marry us. We do not marry them. They will not eat with us." That is quite true; of course. With a religious Jew, of course, you can re- spect his feeling that he may not. Still these are all cases which point to the intense feeling which does exist. They do unwise things sometimes, and so in that way they rather make the Englishman more bitter than he would otherwise be. At our King's dinner, I said to all my Jewish parishioners : " If you want a * kosher' meal, you must go to the Jews' Free School." A u kosher" meal is such food as a Jew may eat. I had 1,200 English Christians and some Jews in my school grounds. How the tickets were got I do not know. They came together; a sprinkling of other Jews who had no intention of eating the King's food also got in. They got the King's cup, the tea, the tobacco, the chocolate, and everything that could be carried away, and they sat with their English brothers, and refused to touch the King's food. They were asked why they did not eat, and why they had come in to sit down, and re- fused to touch his food, whilst there were hungry people outside waiting to come in. It was thoughtlessness. 9760. {Chairman.) Did the English people resent it at all?—Very strongly. 9761. I mean, did they openly resent it?—'No, not openly, but at the time we had several quarrels. They tried, having got the mug, and such things, to get away. It is attention to things of that kind that will prevent the ill-feeling a great deal. It is the result of thought- lessness, and, I think, with a little more care in small things of this kind, a great deal of unpleasantness would be prevented. 9762. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These sorts of things add to the bitterness of feeling ?—Of course, they do. I believe the Commissioners have heard already that there is this extraordinary aloofness which you cannot break down. To a large extent, of course, it comes from suspicion,s and when a Jew first comes over from Russia, if I see him at his door, or shake hands, he cannot believe I have not some design. 9763. (Lord Bothschild.) i'hey are afraid of the police regulations in Russia ?—They put it in this way : That the person who has the greatest power to injure them, first, is myself; and, secondly, possibly, the King ; but the extraordinary notion they get of you is, that their whole destiny is in the hands of the man who is the " Director," as they call him, meaning the " Rector." 9764. (Chairman.) Of whom, in Russia, are you the type?—I have not an idea. I never was there. I have a Russian lady working with me, and she said that in Russia, if I were to attempt to care for the people there as we do here (for it is not a question of creed, but where people are poor, they are our parishioners, and without any kind of question, and without any kind of religious test, we either help them, or send them to the Jewish Board of Guardians, they are all parishioners), if any clergyman dared to do that m Russia* I am told the Government would at once stopMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 321 him, because it would say: "You are attempting to make these people unhappy with their lot." 9765. {Major Evans-Gordon.) That is quite true?— Then, the last thing I have to say with regard to this is, that there is unquestionably the feeling that a great many of them have oome to our country, merely to make a convenience of it. The Englishman possibly mis- interprets their aloofness. He says: " They will never be part of us, and they have simply come to use our country as a convenience 'to make money, and never will become part of the nation." Now, may I say a word in favour of my Jewish parishioners, as I have known them. First of all, in 13 years I have only once seen a Jew drunk in East London. You do not find them in the public-houses, they are extremely thrifty people, they are good citizens, they are law-abiding, they make good husbands, they are good fathers, and they are extremely keen to get on, and to pay their own way, and to show a spirit of independence. I have a club for Jewish men. It is to teach them reading and writ- ing, and old men, 40 and 50 years of age, who have come over, will come to that building every night, and will sit like little children making strokes and pot- hooks, and trying to learn, and within a year it is marvellous to see what they have done ; they can read English, and1 speak English, and write a letter in English, and they are able to take their place amongst the English-speaking people. They would go on till midnight if you would let them; they are so keen to be educated, and to be able to take their proper place in the country. 9766. (Chairman.) How do you support such a muni- ficent school as that ?—It is one of our buildings, it is in connection with our work. I have a scripture reader who can speak Yiddish. The number of men who come is not more than 30. 9767. But where do you get the funds ?—It is part of our parochial organisation—part of our social work. 9768. Supported by subscriptions P—Yes, simply part of our parochial organisation. Then, again, this must be said, that the aliens who have come have purified whole districts. I met an employer in Spitalfields this morn- ing as I came here. I told him where I was com- ing, and he said (he is one of the largest employers in the neighbourhood, and for something like 150 or 200 years his family have been in that part- of London) that 20 years ago this place was a perfect hell, that drunkenness, and harlots, and such like abounded. He said: "I can say this for the Jew" (and I say the same), " that he has wiped out whole areas of vice and infamy, and where once we had houses (as one of the Commissioners will know—Mr. Yallance knows it quite well), in streets like Flower and Dean Street, and various streets of that kind, now dwellings like the Rothschild Buildings stand. I suppose, it was as near a hell upon earth as it was possible to make a place, and all that has bee®, wiped out. There are streets, too, where they have gone into houses ot ill-fame, notoriously bad houses, and they have taken one room and lived there. They have been insulted and persecuted, but they have held their ground. They have never quarrelled. Then, they have taken a second room, or some other Jewish family has taken a second room, until gradually they have got the whole house, and so purified the whole street by excluding the objectionable people who lived there. It is a most marvellous thing, but they have done it. 9769. (Chairman.) Have public-houses diminished in number?—Where once you had, perhaps, 50 cottages, now, of course, you have an enormous model-dwelling. 9770. I am speaking of public-houses ?—No, I should say not. 9771. (Major Evans->Gordon.) Those large buildings would have cleared the ground in any event?—They would, but, at any rate, one must be fair. It was the Jewish community that did it, to a large extent. Of course, the East End Dwellings Company have done something, and others, but to a large extent, one must give our Jewish friends the credit for having cleared and purified these areas, by simply clearing them, and putting up buildings mainly, of course, for Jewish people. I should like, if I may, to make three sug- gestions before I stop. I believe you were going to ask me about remedies. 9772. Yes?—May I suggest three.things? First of all, I would suggest that all aliens—at any rate, the ' Davies. ; Dec. 1902. responsible head of an alien family, and all men and £ev w women who come here—should show some means. I should say no adult alien ought to be allowed to land who has not at least £10. What has been going on for I years? When I was a curate at Whitechapel I had rooms overlooking one side of the London Hospital, and there at eight o'clock in the morning I would see deposited a human cargo. They had all come from some Russian port, I do not know where; they would have their children with them, and nothing but what they held, a few tin pots in their hands, and they did not know where they were going; there they would stand for hours in the day, and an agent would go about billetting these people upon various people who took them in. 9773. (Chairman.) An agent of whom, and acting for whom ?-—I do not know who employed him or how he was employed I cannot tell; but he was the person responsible for getting all these immigrants quartered upon somebody, and before night they would be gone. That is 12 or 13 years ago, and the same thing is going on to-day. Our Jewish friends themselves, those who are here, marvel that the country allows it to go on in this way; they are themselves as strong against it as anybody, and our Jewish friends say, in spite of every effort they cannot overtake the poverty that is abounding if we are going to> allow aliens to come in in this way. Now, might I give you a typical case ? The other day, before our Board of Guardians, this case came up. 9774. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you a member of the Board of Guardians ?—Yes. A man came from Russia eight and a half months ago, and he brought with him three children and a wife who at the time was pregnant. In Russia he had been a cab-driver; he has nothing, and he has no trade. We admit him into this country, and in a short time he is applying to us for medical relief. The Jewish Board of Guardians say, "Let us send you back." 9775. (Chairman.) Is he taken into the house?—No; he asks for medical relief for his wife, who is about to be confined. He had been here a few weeks. The Jewish Board of Guardians say, "Let us send you_ back to Russia, and go back to your cab-driving" ; but he says, " No, I prefer to stay here with 7s. a week.7" 9776. How does he get the 7s. ?—He is learning- tailoring. He will be sweated on that 7s. for months, until he can do something else. He will be taught how to put buttons on or how to use a machine, and so he; will struggle somehow into a knowledge of tailoring. I only mention that one case because it is typical of a..,. very large number. 9777. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your argument woull be then that the numbers of these people with no trade coming in swell the unemployed, and are the victims of the sweaters ?—Precisely. 9778. And crowds the houses ?—Yes; they are ready- made victims. 9779. They are bound to accept anything that is . given them, and work any hours?—Yes.; the demand for employment is so great by unqualified people. What I say is, I think they ought to prove they have some means, or that they are artisans and have some; trade, and show their ability to earn a living wage. 9780. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You put that as an alter - native, either £10 or able to do some trade?—Yes, or- both. I think a man ought to have something in hi& pocket landing here. Secondly, I think it ought to be, made clear that before an alien is allowed to come intoi this country he is both physically and mentally fit. At present it is a deplorable thing to see the feeble- minded aliens about our streets. Sometimes they are in a deplorable condition of uncleanliness. They can- not speak English, and they have got no home, and it is impossible to tell where they spend their nights or how they live. I have had sometimes to call the atten- tion of the police to young Russian lads of 17 and 18 years of age who were manifestly feeble-minded, if not actually imbecile, and they have moved them on, say- ing they had no power to take them up. They have been allowed to come into the country. Physically, we have a great number who are on the very verge of consumption, if they are not already in consumption. Then my third suggestion would be, in view of the enormous number of desertions of wives and children, or of women and children, that all aliena coming into S s322 ROYAL COMMISSION ON AIJEN IMMIGRATION : lRev. W. R. this country • and claiming , to have a. wife should Davies. prove the, marriage.. A very large number of them - come into/this country and say they are married when 8 Dec, 1902. they are not. They sometimes have gone through some r^-rr-— kind of ceremony which the Church does not recognise, . and they know the Jewish Church will not recognise, and one commonly finds they, come here, they have perhaps three or four more children by the. " wife," and then they desert her. They know in their hearts, both/the man and the woman, that there has been no ; legal marriage, and I cannot but feel that if a man felt > h^ was legally married to his wife he, would be much less likely to desert her. S9781. (Chairman.) What proof of the marriage do you suggest P—I suppose there is such a thing as a mar- riage certificate to be got. ; 9782. (Lord BotJisdhild.) You would want to see the certificate ?-^It seems to me it ought to be possible that if people are coming over to England, to live here, that at the port of embarkation some responsible per- son should be satisfied that this man and woman alleging they are married have given satisfactory proof that they are married, as far as they can. The de- sertions, as Lord Rothschild will know, by men of women are deplorable within the last year or two. 9783. (Chairman.) What would prevent the man and woman being independent of one another, and one coming over as John Smith and the other as Mary Jones, taking English names, for an example?—They might say that, but I am dealing with people who do not say it. 9784. Just so; but you have not got the law yet. I was thinking of how they could evade the law.- 9785. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Most of them would wish to say they were married ?—They do. Curiously enough, it is after they have been here for a time that they go. . They are never unkind to their women or to the children.. It simply is that they get in. tow with some, other woman, and they clear off. 9786. (Mr. Vallance.) I take it, if these people re- present themselves as unmarried, then the children •would be the difficulty ?—Yes. 9787. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is a very common thing, as is admitted ?—Yes; the Jewish Board of guardians would tell you it is one of their greatest troubles. 9788. Then, with regard to our own Board of Guar- dians, do many of these people come for medical relief ? —No, I should say not; considering the enormous number of aliens we have, I think it is very few in- deed. 9789; For medical relief ?—They come more for medical relief than for any other; but I do not think you can say, considering our great population of Jewish people and aliens, that a large proportion of them do v come.: ; i I have always felt we ought not to speak of these aliens as pauper aliens; that is to say, as aliens coming under the Poor-law, because, as a matter of . fact, they do not. I think our Poor-law to a very small ^extent indeed maintains any of these aliens. That is what I feel. Mr. Vallance will know that much better than, X do. • . 9790.. (Chairman.) In respect of the production of this money, what would prevent some persons assisting the immigrants to come in, providing them with the sum mentioned, say a £10 note, to produce to the investigat- ing officer, and directly he landed paying it back, and that £10 note being handed to the next person ?—At any "rate, there would be this: supposing I have landed "today, and I have £10; then supposing I go to the Jewish Board of Guardians next month, they would want to know what I have done with my £10 which I had when I landed. There could be investigation of that kind. 9791. I should think there w.ould be, if you ask me the question; but, then, the man may not go to the Board of Guardians, because a great many of these people do not?—No; but any man who Came' with nothing and had nothing to do Would be compelled to go somewhere for assistance. 9792. But we know the return to the Board of Guardians, and there are not very many ?—No. 9793. (Major Eiiams-Gorcfon.) Do you think a standard of that kind would be a deterrent to people starting with absolutely nothing ?—Yes, especially if you were to make it a penal; offence for any man to attempt to deceive by handing over a sum of money which was not to be retained by the immigrant. 9f794. .(^Ohairman.) Not his bona^Rde property; ?—» Just so. 9795. We are so much in search of a remedy that you may be sure that your suggestions will be con- sidered?—I am much obliged to your lordship. 9706. You have spoken of the competition of these aliens working at certain trades at very low wages, and you say the competition is injurious to the workmen, but such competition does produce articles of clothing at a very cheap rate?—Yes. 9797. Beneficial to the consumer ?—Distinctly. 9798. If you stop that immigration coming the con- sumer will want his cheap goods ?—Yes. 9790. What is to prevent them going back to the system that you say in your paper did exist, of having these very -men, it may be, working abroad and import- ing the £300,000 worth of goods from Germany, and so competing with the English workmen ?—-I do not see anything to prevent it. I think clothing during the last twenty odd years, in spite of the higher prices generally in things, has not gone up in price. 98f)0. What I want you to consider is, if we stop the immigration coming here and stop the manufacture of cheap clothing in this realm, what is to prevent that cheap clothing being made in Germany and imported here ?—Nothing. 9801. The competition would be the same?-—Yes. I do not suggest that they should bel stopped coming over here, but I would impose conditions. 9802. On the entrance?—Yes. 5. You do not suggest that, economically, we can control the rate of wages at which they shall work ?—I do not know. 9804. There would be excessive protection in that. Just think of that, because it is an important matter, if we could see any way to deal with the subject; but I will not press you now. 9805. (Lord Rothschild.) X want to ask a few ques- tions about these desertions. I suppose you are aware that all Jews and Jewesses when they marry have marriage lines, or contract, as it is called ?—Yes; I have seen it. 9806. These desertions are not really desertions. The man does not desert his wife to live with another woman. What generally happens is, he goes in search of work or emigrates, and leaves his wife behind till he can send for her or pay for her journey ?—Sometimes ; but I am afraid it is the case that he too commonly now does go with another woman. He carries another woman off with him. It used to be much more that a man had grown tired of the struggle an4 had sometimes cleared out alone, but within the last few years I am bound to say that in, I should say, seven cases out of 10 it is as I say, he takes another woman with him. 9807. Probably you know more about it than I do. My experience was previous to the last two years, when I was on the Board of Guardians ?—I am only speaking now of my own particular area, and I'should say in seven cases out of 10 there has been another woman in the question. 9800. The Board of Guardians generally prosecute when they find a. case of desertion P-—We should hardly. 9809. I mean the Jewish Board of Guardians ?- 9810. (Mr. Vallance.) TheJewish Board of, Guardians have no status for proceedings. ?—The Jewish Board of Guardians is not a Board of Guardians, really. 9811. (Lord Bothsohild.) They act with you?—Yes, always; most loyally. 9812.. I think you mentioned the invasion of Stepney by Jews, was quite a modern thing ?—Oh, no. 9813. I think in the year 1806 the infant school was built because Spitalfields was a Jewish quarter ?—I will go one better than you, my Lord. I will show you that in 1620 Spitalfields had a large Jewish population. They followed, as your Lordship knows, the Huguenots, and took a great deal to silk-weaving; and in the year 1620 there was a quaint book published, called " The World Tost at Tennis," by Thomas Middleton and William Rowley, and these words occur. He is applauding theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 323 Jew & ^" I'll show you, Sir, And they are men are daily to be seen, iThera's Rabbi Job, a venerable silk weaver, Jehu, a thrQwste^ lmng in the Spitai fields, There's Rabbi Abimelech, a learned cobbler, Rabbi Lazarus, a superstitious tailor, these shall hold up their shuttles, needles, awls, Against the gravest Levite of the land, And give no ground neither." That is in praise of the Jew in 1620. 9814. I was not going back, so far, but only to the present century. The free school, which was not then called a^free school, was built in 1806 because Spital- fieids was then almost entirely inhabited by Jews ?— As a matter of fact, the great inrush .began about 1880, at tlie time of the Russian persecution. 9815. (Chairman.) In 1806, was it silk-weaving, or what was the trade ?— 9816. (Lord Hotihscliild.) It was old clothes and tailor- ing, I suppose?—The great inrush of Jews began about 1870, I think. ; 9817. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) One word about the Sunday employment. What you principally complain of is the employment of English people by Jewish owners, or is it generally ?—-Not only that. What I deplore is that we should have a large number of people coming to reside amongst us who do not respect the Enjglish Sunday. It is a little trying to find machinery going on all round you on Sunday. "Coke" is cried in the streets, people are removing from one house to another, and houses are being pointed and painted. It is not quite what on# expects on a Sunday. 9818. Do you know the provisions of the Factory Act about it ?—I have read it, but I forget it. 9819. The law is in the 50th Section: "Where the occupier ,of a factory or workshop is a person of the Jewish religion the regulations of this Act with respect to; the'employment of young persons and women shall not prevent him—<(i) If he keep his factory or workshop closed on. Saturday until sunset from employing young persons and women on, Saturday from after sunset until nine .o'clock in' the evening; or (2) If he keeps his factory or workshop closed on Satur- day both before and after .sunset from employ- ing young persons and women one hour on every other day in the week (mot being Sunday) in addition to the hours allowed by this Act, so that such hour be at the beginning or end of the period of employment, and be not before six o'clock in the-morning or after nine o'clock in the evening ; or (3) If all the children, yonng persons, and women in his factory or workshop are of the Jewish religion, from giving them, if so specified in a notice affixed in the factory or workshop as by this Act provided, any two public holidays under the Holiday Extension Act 1875, in lieu of Christmas Day and. Good Friday; but in that case such factory or workshop shall not be open for traffic on Christmas Day or Good Friday. No penalty shall be incurred by any person in respect of any work done on Sunday in a factory or workshop by a young person or woman of the Jewish religion subject to the following conditions." I suppose they do employ women and children ?-—Yea, largely. G ' 91320. Then there are conditions, such as that it must not be open for traffic on Sundays. The legal authorisa- tion is confined to a person of the Jewish religion em- ploying young persons of the Jewish religion?—Yes. 9821. Your complaint goes further than that?—Cer- tainly. They are voluntarily engaged. They want work, and this is the only work that offers, and they take it. 9822. Otherwise it would be illegal. under the Fac- tory Act?—Yes. 9823. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The pressure for work, I suppose, compels them ?—Yes. , 9824. (Mr. Vallance.) In your social work, the real problem which presents itself to you, I take it, is the overcrowding?—Yes. 1 9825. Although yoii see in alien immigration one of the contributing causes, if not all the main causes, of the congestion, yet you are alive to their, virtues as well as their fault's ?—Distinctly. 9826. HJave you,. in your experience, seen in your parish a^y large; clearances of. dwellings for the pur- pose , of erecting .either . warehouses or dwellings Yes. 6144. ■9827*- A considerable population would be displaced Bev. W: Hi by those clearances I should not say considerable. Davies. Wherever there have been clearances, as a rule the-- buildings which have been put up in their place have $ ®ec- 1902* been residences, have they not ? I am trying to think. We have had a few large warehouses, but I should nob think there has been any great displacement on that account. 9828. Ill) your parish there has not been any con- siderable displacement of dwelling-houses for the poor for the purpose of erecting warehouses %—No great dis- placement. 9829. It is within your knowledge, I think,, that a considerable displacement has taken place in the Brady Street district %—Yes. 9830. It has come under your notice as a member of the Board of Guardians ?—It has. 9831. Have you any idea as to the mumber who were displaced there ?—I think at the time we, as guardians, went into it, and my impression was that it was about 200 families. I am not sure. I know whole streets were cleared. 9832. And they were cleared for the primary purpose of extending business premises?—Of extending a brewery. 9833. Then, with regard to this congestion of popula- tion, the overcrowding is the primary cause and the main cause of the increase of rents?—Distinctly. 9834. If aliens can occupy rooms under illegal condi- tions, they can afford to pay what the English work- ing-man) in the next room cannot pay?—Distinctly. 9835. So that that really is one of the main causes of the high rents P—Yes. 9836. The high rents in turn actually drive out the English workmen from that neighbourhood?—Yes—he will not live under those conditions; and even the Jewish people last year were holding on Sundays a series of meetings to protest against the high rents which they were being compelled to pay, and on the Sunday after- noons sometimes there were meetings held inside streets where certain landlords were denounced because of the high rents they were compelling some of the poor work- ing Jewish people to pay. 9837. Assuming the local authority had been able to. deal with this question of overcrowding so as to reduce it, would those high rents, in your judgment, still pre- vail? Would not that of necessity have led to a con- siderable diminution of rents, or prevented considerable increase of rents ?—I should think it would. 9838. If you get a large amount of illegal overcrowd- ing in a given area, does not that mean necessarily that there is a considerable increase of children as well as . adults ?—'Certainly. 9839. And if there is this increase of children in a . given area, that increase necessitates in turn an in- crease of school accommodation?—Certainly. 9840. The provision of school accommodation leads iin.. turn to a demolition of houses for the purpose of th3 school ?—Distinctly; it must, it has done so in Hanburv Street, 9841. So the whole thing works in a vicious circle ?— Certain y. 9842. Have you during your incumbency had occa- sion to communicate with the sanitary authorities in regard to this question of overcrowding -Sometimes. 9843. Have you been satisfied in your own mind that they have, as far as possible, having regard to the means at their disposal, co-operated ?—They have dis- tinctly'—'most certainly. 9844. With regard to your proposal that aliens upon landing should be required to have in their possession a given sum of money, I take it it would operate in this way, that these alien steerage passengers would produce this amount on board the ship altogether before land- ing?—I should say so—-before they are allowed to land, so that they should not land destitute. 9845. (Major Evans Gordon.) Or even before start- ing?—Yes, before starting would be better still. 9846. Now there are one or two other questions I should like to put. You spoke about the increasing prevalence in the matter of wife desertion, and of people going off with other women ?—Yes. s s 2324 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : W. H. Davies. 8 Dec. 1902. 9847. You spoke of a proportion of seven out of ten probably in the last few years. Would you say that was due to the class of alien that is coming in having deteriorated and gone down?—I cannot tell you what it is due to. I can simply point to the fact; but I cannot the least tell you why. The extraordinary thing is that in nearly all cases they are spoken of as having been such good husbands and fathers, and kind to wives, and children. It is not the result of drinking and quarrelling, an,d that sort of thing. 9848. But still that does not prevent them making a change. Now with regard to the high rents which are demanded, would yo-u say that those high rents 'are demanded mostly by houses in the possession of foreign or Jewish landlords?—That I cannot tell. 98#9. Is there a change of ownership going on?— Constantly. 9850. Th© houses are falling in to foreign and Jewish hands?—Yes. We know this: that .at certain sales, when houses are put up for sale (we know it by attending the sale or from the agent) one agent who has a very large business in East London property says that at least 19 out of 20 of the properties that change hands go into' the possession of Jewish owners ; but, of course, after the sale, or even then, you never know who is the owner, and you cannot ascertain the ownership. 9851. Of course, falling into the hands of foreigners and Jewish people, there would be a natural tendency for them to have foreign and Jewish people in those houses ?—'Probably, but I think they would make the best of their property. 9852. In any case?—Yes, 9853. And get the highest rent they can?—Yes, there is a, good deal of human nature about them. 9854. Now with regard to the question which Mr. Vallance asked you as to whether, if the overcrowdng were diminished, rents would go down, it occurs; to me that, if overcrowding were diminished you would get also a very largely incr/eased demand for houses Y—Pre*- cisely. 9855. Because there would be far fewer people in the houses, and, secondly, a great many more people in search of houses?—You have inadequate accommoda- tion at pr esent . 9856. That would tend again to compensate for that reduction. It would heighten rents ?—If everybody had the cubic space they ought to have, I do not know what you would do with the number of people you would have no accommodation for. You have not got accommodation for the people. It is impossible. The proceedings were adjourned for a short time. Mr. N. J. 'Mighmorc. Mr. Nathaniel J. Highmoke, called; and Examined. 9857. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Will you tell the Com- mission wha t is your position ?—I am Senior Assistant Solicitor of Inland Revenue at Somerset House. 9858. In what respect is your department concerned with this question of the aliens which we are studying ? —Merely in connection with frauds upon the revenue. We have to deal with frauds in connection with illicit stills—the illicit manufacture of spirits and the distribu- tion of illicit spirits, and, of course, the unlicensed sale of liquor at restaurants and clubs a.nd shebeens ; and we .also have the particular section in the Post Office Protec- tion Act 1884 under which we take proceedings for the protection of the Stamp Revenue, particularly in connec- tion with foreign postage stamps. We have also, of course, under the Stamp Duties Management Act, con- siderable powers with regard to British stamps, but the .Post Office Protection Act defines the stamps to which it refers as fictitious stamps, and defines them as including stamps of any colony and stamps of any foreign country. 9859. With reference to the Excise law, can you give us a sketch of the provisions?—Yes. We have under Sections 32 and 33 of the. old Excise Management Act of 1827 very great powers. In the first place, under Section 32, if goods which are liable to a duty of excise are deposited or concealed with intent, to avoid payment of duty, every person in whose custody they are found is liable to a penalty of £100, and under Section 33, if we find any goods upon which ia duty of excise is payable being manufactured in an illicit manner, we have power to arrest every person in any way concerned with the manufacture, and take them before the justices. They are liable for the first offence to a fine of £30, and for a second offence £60, and the imprisonment in default of immediate payment of the penalty may be with hard labour. Then there are several penalties under the Spirits Act, which is the Act which relates to the general distillery law, and that is directed to illicit spirits as well. Th© sections in the Act of 1827 relate to any description of goods liable to a duty of excise. 9860. You are referring to Sections 32 and 33 of the Excise Management Act?—Yes. Those sections relate to any goods liable to any duty. 9861. Without going intoi details, perhaps it would be sufficient if I read this clause from the statement you have prepared: "The principal enactments relating to the manufacture and possession of illicit, /spirits in England are contained in Sections 32 and 33 of the Excise Management Act, 1827 (7 and 8 George IV., chapter 53), and Sections 5, 140, and 144-149 of the Spirits Act, 1880 (43 and 44 Vict., chapter 24). Under the first mentioned Act, any person having in his pos- session any goods liable to a duty of excise, with intent to defraud His Majesty of the duty, is liable, under Section 32, to a forfeiture of the goods and a penalty of £100, and any person concerned in any illicit manu- facture of such goods is liable, under Section 33 to arrest arid'to a penalty of £30 for the first offence and of £60 for any subsequent offence, and in case of default of immediate payment, to imprisonment with or without hard labour." That is what, you have told us?—Yes. 9862-3. Then you say, " Under the Act of 1880, a penalty of £500 is imposed by Sec. 5 upon any un- licensed person who hias or uses a still for making spirits, iand there is a power under Section 140 to search for stills, and by that section a penalty of £200 is im- posed upon the owner or the person in whose custody a still is found in respect of the place and of the still. A still is always liable to seizure." Then you deal with unlawful removal or hawking of spirits1—that you have already referred to 1—'Yes. 9864. And then there are other provisions with regard to. the Stamp Revenue which we can go' into afterwards. Now let us come to what you have found recently. What ha.ve been your recent experiences with regard to illicit stills ?—I have had a search made for the cases within the last ten years in connection with the illicit distilla- tion of spirits in the East End, and I find there were three convictions in 1893 (those convictions had reference to one matter only), and there were three convictions in 1895. That brings the total number of convictions for the five years ending with 1897 to six only. Since then there have been several cases, of illicit manufacture which have been discovered. 9865. Since 1897 ?—Yes, a veiy large increase. The convictions in 1898 were 7, in 1899 17, in 1900 8, in 1901 10, and in the present year there have been already 9 convictions. 9866. Up to when ?—Up to this day. Three of tho&e convictions this year are of persons who have been pre- viously convicted of similar offences. 9867. {Sir l^enelm Digby.) Are those separate people, or all people concerned in one case—the 17, for instance ? —No, they are all separate people. There were several persons convicted, but there ia;re a large number of separate matters. There may be two or three concerned in one matter. 9868. I take the police evidence, which was to the effect that 17 were all concerned in one case ?—That is not the same, because these are not police oases at all. The police have nothing to do with these. These are cases entirely under the Inland Revenue. 9869. (Lord Rothschild.) Are the police more on the look-out now for illicit distillation ?—No, I do not think so. These penalties that I refer to' are penalties that can only be sued for by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. They are not police penalties at all. The police could arrest in some cases, and if they did arrest they could proceed, but unless they are arrested the pro- ceedings must be instituted by order of the Commis- sioners of Inland Revenue* 9870. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are there police prose- cutions for these offences in addition to the ones that reach you ?—No, I think not—not in any case that I refer to.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 325 9871. Are there any that you do not refer to?—Yes, they might possibly arrest, but I do not think in any case where the police arrest in connection with the stills that they would stop at that; I think they would be certain to come to us. 9872. If they found out anything they would inform you ?—Yes, That makes a total for the five years ending 1902 of 51 convictions. 9873. Are there prosecutions besides convictions P—• Ther© are a good many cases where we find small quanti- ties of spirits or parts of stills which are equally liable to seizure; we seize them, and a prosecution has not- fol- lowed. 9874. Then these figures you have given are prosecu- tions only?—Convictions only. 9875. Have you had many prosecutions without con- victions P—If we find the illicit manufacture of spirits going on, we have power to arrest anybody concerned in the manufacture, and we very often do arrest perhaps two or three, or four even in one case. When the case comes to be heard, the magistrate before whom it is heard says: "Well, So-and-so is the principal offender here; that woman whom you have arrested is his wife, and I shall not convict her." And to somebody else he says : " I think I will let him off with a caution." There- fore we take the1 conviction against the principal man, as a rule. Sometimes we have more than one. 9876. My point is that the 51 convictions do not re- present the entire industry; there are indications of others that you do not absolutely take into the courts ?—> There are indications of others. Thirty-four stills were seized in that period of five years, and I have here a list of those 51 convictions, with the names and the dates and the police court and the charge and the punishment. (Handing in Document.) 9877. These convictions were against foreigners, I understand?—Yes. ' 9878. {Chairman.) All of them?—All of them against foreigners.. ° 9879. Were there others against natural born subjects? —No, none of .this class of case. With two exceptions, these convictions were against foreigners, who were Jews from Russia and Poland. The exceptions are Morris fee en, No. 4 on that, list, who is an Austrian Jew, and Joseph Josephs, No. 19, who is a German Jew. 9880. (Major Mvans-Gordon.) With these exceptions all the rest were Poles and Russians ?—Yes, all of them, and there was not any conviction in the. past five years in London against, any other persons for similar offences. 9881. Then, in most of these cases you say the persons against whom proceedings have been taken have been discovered actually in the manufacture?—A very large number of them. Where there is a still it is so. 9882. And in such cases it is usual for a remand to be obtained ?—-Yes, because the penalty upon arrest is merely £30 in the case of a first offence, and the penalties under the Spirits Act are very heavy, ,and unless it is an unimportant case there is a remand, and informations are at once ordered for recovery of these heavy penalties. The conviction in those cases is generally taken on one of the informations; providing for the heavy penalties. 9883. Is the penalty usually recovered?—No in a great number of cases the defendants go to prison. 9884. They have to go to prison in default of paying the penalty?—Yes, in default of payment, 9885. Can you tell us what is the machinery for the discovery of these things?—We have a small detective •staff at Somerset House, and I should say that the de- tective staff know a good many of these people from association or from other circumstances, but, as a rule information is privately furnished. ' 9886. (Lord Bothschild.) For a reward ?—The reward is optional; it is entirely a,t the discretion of the Board of Inland Revenue, but we could not suppress these thinsss without reward. 9887. (JUL aj or JEvans-'Gordon.) Does this power of arrest extend to all persons in any way concerned?— Oertamly it does. 9888 Do you find women concerned1 in these cases too /—Yes, our experience is that the men are mainly engaged as the principal persons in the manufacture, and the women are the principal persons in the distri- bution of the spirit. —Yes^' ^ some 'oases stills are found and seized ? 9890. In other instances you find parts of stills ?— Yes, parts of stills or traces of illicit spirit—empty bottles with just a small quantity. It is perfectly easy for an expert to say whether the spirit is properly manufactured or not, particularly in the East End of London, where there is a particular description of spirit that is known to be made. 9891. Will you tell us what the stills consist of ?— The still that is ordinarily used in the East End of London is of a very peculiar description. They make the wash, by boiling sugar in 'hot water and adding yeast to it, and then they have a big tin or copper or iron vessel, and they put the wash into that, and put a fire under it, and then there is apipe passing from the top of the vessel, and this pipe runs round into a coil, which is called the worm of the still, and that worm is very often in an ordinary washing bath. The bath has an inflow of water and an outflow of water, because it is necessary to cool the spirit there in orde* to condense it, so that the flow of water flows rigiht through the bath, and keeps the worm perfectly cold, The spirit passes from that worm in many of these cases straight into a little funnel with char- coal in it, and down into the bottle in which it is actually delivered for sale. That is a very common process. I have here; a little diagram that I think will explain that to you exactly, and these are some specimens of the actual spirit that ihave been produced from ollicit stills. But we do find, occasionally, a real distilling apparatus. 9892. This that you have drawn represents a cheap made-up affair?—Yes. 9893. What would the plant cost to make a. still of that kind?—About £3. 9894. Yon could put the whole thing up with the bath and the coil for that?—They would use the home bath, but the 'actual body of the still would cost some- thing like £3, and then they have that piece of piping which, is called the worm, that coil which is in the bath, from which they run the spirit straight into the bottle through a funnel in which there is some charcoal which cleanses it. 9895. Do you find in some cases there are regular stills ?—Yes, we found a Coffey still, and we found $ pot still in that period that I have mentioned. 9896. Are those regular things that you can buy, or have they to be made?—The Coffey still is the most elaborate arrangement of coils, and the principle of the Coffey still is that in one operation you carry through the whole process of distillation and produce a real, marketable spirit at a very high degree of strength. In the pot still you produce an extremely good spirit, such, as a rule, is produced, but you always would have to do it by a double process of distillation. First of all you produce the low wines, and then you have to redistil the low wines to get the spirits, but the Coffey still does the whole thing in one process. 9897. But these instances where they have elaborate plant are rare?—Yes, I will tell you the particular case. In October, 1899, a pot still was found at Barkmgside, Ilford, which was in the possession of Joseph Josephs, a German Jew, and I referred to it as being one of the cases. He was arrested. Josepihs was a dairy farmer as well as a distiller, and kept two vans and three horses, which were used for conveying dairy produce as well as spirits to London. This was a pot still of 80 gallons content, capable of producing about 80 gallons of spirit per week. The spirit was conveyed m milk cans to 15, Queen Street, White- chapel, and was there distributed. Some of the spirit was found at this address, and two other persons as well as Josephs were arrested. That is the instance where there, were three cases in one matter. Josephs was ordered to pay a fine of £200, and in default of payment, was imprisoned for six months. Marks Becker, who was the principal offender associated with him, was fined £20, and in default of payment was imprisoned for one month, and his other associate, his brother, Hugh Becker, was bound over as a first offender under the First Offenders Act. That is how that case was dealt with. (The witness produced several bottles containing samples of illicit spirit.) 9898. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) What is this spirit: has it any particular name, such as vodka?—No. . 9899. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The spirit produced is usually of a strength of 20 degrees above proof?_• les, or more. Mr. N.J. Hicfhmore. 8 Dec. 1902.326 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr» Ji 9900. s(Sir! T£enehnf:Digtnji) What doe®' it suit ? Mighmor&i -^It is entirely consumed by Jews. 1 - c. 1902.^ 9901. (Chairman.) But is it recognised by any name * that we have ?—It is what we call plain spirit, unless it-is. flavoured... The Jews speak of it as Brumgum. 9902. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is it like methylated spirit ?—It has a trace of methylated' spirit sometimes. Q903. (Sir Kenelm Digby.)But is it a recognised form- of : spirit ;< does it go by a foreign name ?^~No, it is simply spirit. It is sold mainly at the big festivals and 5 Passovers. 9904. And it has no distinctive name at all?—No,: this spirit that I have here in this bottle is 48 degrees over proof. 9905. (Chairman.) Is it converted afterwards into gin and whiskey ?—^No^ it is sold ,as it is. . .. 9906. And drunk as it is ?—A.nd drunk as it is.. - .ii.r; .u.. , ■- .... .... -.. ■ 9907. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Its merit is merely alcohol ?—-That is all. 9908^ (Lord Rothschild.). I)o they mix it with ariiseed ? •^-Yes, sometimes, but, as a rule, they drink it neat as it comes from the still; they do not take it with water. 9909. (Major. Evans-Gordon.) Do they drink it like they do in Russia the vodka, where they go to the Government shop and knock the cork out of the bottle* and'drink it like that?—Yes, it is what we call plain spirit. It is almost the same as Whiskey, but being made torn sugar there is not much' flavour with it. 9910. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is tasteless ?-—Yes. 9911. (Major Evans-iGordon.) Is this very much, above ordinary proof?—Yes. 9912. (Chairman.) If it is tasteless, the person drinking it.must be seeking for some result?—-Yes. This is a similar spirit (referring to another sample), just over proof, flavoured with aniseed. This , spirit (referring to another sample), is 11 degrees over proof. ; 9913. (Mr. ;• Vallance.) Is it not diluted They usually drink it at about 20 degrees over proof. This is 25 degrees over proof (referring to another sample). , 9914. (Major Evans-Gordon.) (after tasting) There is a little flavour in this?—Yes. This particular spirit I have here, 48*9 over proof, must have been produced from a Ooffe^ still. - ' §915. Did you trace where that came from ?-—Yes, that was, taken at a still. 9916. This is an industry conducted by, and the proceeds -of it are consumed by, foreign .Jews, who come dhietfly from Eaissia and PolandYes,, that is sck • "We found the. Coffey still, in April of last year. That was found at Wapping in the possession of a man called Jacob Numihauser, and he was arrested. 'That stil'l was of 50 gallons content,, and was capable of producing over 70 gallons of spirit per week. It was affixed to the wall, and' concealed by doors which, when closed, gave the appearance of an ordinary cup- board. It was one of these coiled stills.. This man Was arrested, and he was convicted upon an information under Section 5 of the Spirits Act, 1880, which provides for a £500 penalty. He had to pay a fine of £50, and in default of payment was imprisoned for six weeks. He is one of the men. who repeats the thing, and he was arrested again this year, and convicted of a similar offence on the 29th August, when, he was ordered to pay a fine of £125, and an default of payment was im- prisoned for six months. 9917. That isi twice he has been caught?—Yes, once in April, 1901, and1 once ioi August of this year. 9918. Is the stuff very cheaply produced ?—The actual cost is about 3s. 2d. a proof gallon, or 3s. 9d. for 20 degrees over proof, and the charge they make for that about 20 degrees over proof is Is. 6d. to 2s. a pint; 9919. What does that; represent a profit of ?-4-It is a very considerable profit. 9920. The fact of thiis machinery existing for making 80 gallons a week shows a very considerable trade?-— Y^s,:tjiere would be a considerable trade there., 9921. If all these stills were put together, what out- put? would they represent roughly?—I could not say. Most of thestiils which I have given you • in that little diagram are about 10 to 15 gallons. content, and they would produce about 7 or 8 gallons, a week, but I h ave ; no't calculated it at all. 9922. (Chairrtiam,.) How many of these would a; man have ; would he have more' than one ?—Only one. 9923. Then > that would be very little profit ?-—The fact is these men are not exlgag^d in distilling except at night. As a rule, they are engaged in some other occupation all day. 9924. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is just a little over- time ?—Yes. 9925. The spirit is made in one place and removed to another?—As a rule. We do hot find that the p l ace- of distribution ever corresponds with the place where the arrest is made. It is too dangerous. They do* not wish their stills to be seized, so tihey make the spirit at; one place—at a distillery, and remove it perhaps 100 yards or a quarter of a mile, and dis- tribute.it from there. The mode of distribution is that t^iey carry it about in . sacks or something of that kind, or in some cases they have appliances which will fit under tihe dress,; so that they are absolutely con- cealed—T,metal appliances. 9926; For carrying a bottle?—No, for carrying the illicit spirit. - 9927. And then they decant it to the person they are selling it toi into a bottle ?—Yes, or into a glass. 9928. Those mietal things contain the liquor ?—Yes. 9929. Do they take it round and sell it retail at the houses and workshops ?—Yes. 9930. The fact of its being made in one place and sold in another creates difficulties in the case of detection ?~ In finding the still, because it is of no importance to us- that a. small quantity of illicit spirit is offered for sale0 The great importance for us is to get the still. 9931. And check the thing at its origin ?—Yes. 9932. Do you find many people going, about with liquor in this way ?—We know of it to some extent, and. by that means we endeavour to trace the still. 9933. You follow the man up?—Yes. 9934. Then you say another difficulty arises from the fact that you have just told us, that the men are en- gaged in one occupation during the day, and work the still at night ?-—Yes, we have known them employed as boot-finishers or cabinet-makers, or in quite legitimate trades. 9935. Are they people whoi have been engaged in this- spirit industry abroad ?—In some cases we know that it is so. That man Morris Green, whom I have referred to,, who came from Austria., acknowledged that he had a knowledge of distilling, and that man Numihauser, who was convicted twice, had been engaged in distilling in Argentina before he came over here. Those are state- ments they made to us. 9936.. What is the penalty attaching to a man being, found carrying about liquor for sale ?—£100. 9937.; If he is carrying it about?—Yes, hawking spirits.. 9938-9: But the magistrates would not inflict a fine of that magnitude, I suppose?—If it was a serious case, in all probability the magistrate would inflict a substantial fine, and in default of payment send him to prison. 9940. If he is in mere possession of the illicit stuff ?— Yes, the possession in the house would be a fine of £100'" under another section. 9941. Having it in his house ?—Yes. 9942; Then there is a penalty on the purchaser and the seller ?—Yes. 9943. It is an offence to be in possession of it under any circumstances ?—Yes, but there is a special penalty on a purchaser. The purchasers' section is 148: " If any person receives, buys, or procures, any spirits from a person not having authority to- seH or deliver the same he shall incur a fine of £100." There is a special penalty for that. This is for the protection of the spirit revenue which is very large. r (Chairman.) Have you any knowledge of whether these persons whoi have been convicted have recently arrived here ?—I believe that thej have been in this country on an average from; one to twoi years. * 9944. (Major Evans- Gordon.) All these persons that you have been speaking of are foreigners?—-Yes, 9945. Russians and Poles ?^-Yes. 9946. The subject of the part taken by foreigners in this business came especially prominently before the Commissioners early, in this year did it not ?_Yes. 9947. What happened then?—The Deputy-Chairman* ES 0®> EPPPfOEh -327 , and any unlicensed person who distils, or. makes or, sells spirits, IS LIABLE TO A HEAVY FINE OR IMPRISONMENT. London. March, 1902." 9949. (Chairman.) How far is that circulated ? It is important to know whether these immigrants know what our law is. Were those notices circulated very broadly ? —I understand they were circulated very broadly, and they have been circulated ever since March, 1902. I hope it m-ay have some effect^ but at present, seeing the ninnber of convictions we have had this year, I do not think it has led to much. 99>50. Is there any reason to suppose that at any time these immigrants were ignorant of what the British law was P—Yes, we have thought so all along that a great many of them are ignorant, but some few are not. 9951. -(Major Evans-Gordon.) And still it goes on in- creasing ?—Yes, we have reason to think that the or- ganised system;is broken ait the moment by these heavy terms of imprisonment that have been imposed on two or three of them who were really the prime movers m it, but still it is going o>n considerably. - 9952. Taking it all round, there must be a considerable production and a considerable consumption of this spirit ? —Oh,! yes, there is a considerable amount of it, and !has been certainly. 9953., Would you say that! there is considerably more of it than you are able to discover ?—-I should think so. 9954. Does the fact of what you have discovered lead you to suppose, that there; is more that you have not discovered ?—London is a very large place, and it is. very difficult to get about it properly, and I think it is quite possible there may be others, but we 81)ec. 1902. perfectly legitimate trade apparently, being carried on; —- 'but df on going into the house, you pass through into the back, you get as much drink and as much gambling as you wish. That is what we find in a great many of these restaurants. 9960. And all these so-called clubs are merely drinking dens ?—Very largely so. 9961. Are they kept, open at illegal hours ?—All hours. 9962. All hours of the night- ?•—Yes, frequently. 9963. And they are frequented almost exclusively by foreigners ?—Yes. ■ 9964. (Chairman.) But if the police saw a place Where they were selling'fea in the froiit-rOom, kept open all night, would not they suspect it at once ?— I dare say they are not kept open all night in that way. I (3o not quite know how that works, but the police have the same powers, precisely, as the Board of In- land Revenue, only that the police would proceed under the Licensing Act, and we should proceed under the Excise Acts; but, as a matter of fact, as is well known, there is a suggestion that these cases should be taken up by the Inland Revenue and not by the police, and that is how we are concerned, with them. My opinion always has been, that in these unlicensed places, which are kept as places of disorder, it is more a matter for the police than for the Revenue. 9965. The gambling-house certainly is. You have nothing to do with gambling ?—No, nothing, but there was a. correspondence with the Home Office, some years ago, and it was wished that we should take these cases up. With regard to any statement that I have made with regard to. a club or restaurant, it must be taken that it refers only to cases that we discovered. The police, probably, are on similar lines working against many others. 9966. (Major Evans-^Gordon.) Under the Licensing Act?—Yes; we do not raid them. 9967. Therefore these $4 cases you have referred to would not refer to all ?—Not to all. If I may illustrate this, in the latter part of 1898 we received considerable complaints about some clubs, and we made four detec- tions. The first was against a German club known as the German Bakers' Club, 78, Christian Street, Com- mercial Road, E. In that case a man called Peter Schmidt was ordered to pay fines amounting in the aggregate to £120, and in default of payment sentenced to nine months' imprisonment. In to-day's paper there ; is an account of, a similar case at the Thames Police Court, where this very same club was raided by the police on Friday night, and Philip Schmidt, described as the secretary, was fined £25 a.nd 5 guineas costs; Han^ Franks, who had been previously convicted and who was described as a steward, was fined £50 and 5 guineas costs; and three others, were, also fined, one; of them being the president of the club. That is in to-day's paper, and it is the same club. 9968. Was that a separate proceeding from yours?—. Yes, that is a police proceeding. They raided the club on Friday night. 9969. And you raided it when ?—Our conviction took place on the 5th November, 1898. 9970. And the police have raided "the same club again ? —Yes, that is a police raid. Then there was another case of a man called Eifert, of 8, Plummer's Row, Com- mercial Road, E. This was a detection made also in 1898, at the same tame, and he was imprisoned for 12 weeks in default" of payment of fines; and in another case, May, of 51, GreenfieldStreet, Commercial Road, E.j was ordered to pay £40, which he paid at once to the governor of the prison on his arrest. 9971. That was a- club ?—Yes. 9972. Then in the fourth case, a man named Selimski lived at 28, Hanbury. Street, .Spitalfields—that was a Jewish theatre. He, escaped at that time, and was traced to Liverpool, and arrested, there, and imprisoned for six months in default of payment of fines. All those men were German J ews. Then we also made detections at the. German Oak Club later in the same year the Imperial Club, and the New Star Club. ' 9973. Where were these situated ?—The German Oak Club is in Princes Square, in the East End—St. George s. Morris Kuttner,. described as the president of the club* and two men called Friday, who lived on the ei-ji328 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. N. Mighmtre* 8 Dec. 1902, premises and described themselves as stewards, were charged. Kuttner and Hugo Friday were ordered to pay fines amounting in the aggregate to £10 4s., and the other Friday was ordered to pay £5 8s. They paid the money in each case. It is a very lucrative employment, and the money is very often paid. 9974. The unlicensed club is a very lucrative business P —Yes. Some of these people have been previously con- victed. I could give you the particulars of several others. 9975. Then in the latter part of 1900 you got many illegal sales of beer and spirits and tobacco in what you describe as the roughest parts of the East End?—Yes, we made 23 detections there. These premises were all open under the guise of clubs and restaurants. The detections necessitated a great deal of caution and care. In these 23 oases we secured 19 convictions. The . warrant was refused by the magistrate in one case. One of the men absconded before proceedings were taken, and the other two men absconded before 'the warrant was executed. 9976. Were all those 23 Russians and Poles ?—Yes. 9977. That was in the latter part of 1900?—Yes. 9978. You say these detections necessitated extreme caution, having regard to the class of persons frequenting these premises, and were, in many cases, attended with considerable risk. Do you mean by that that they were dangerous characters ?—Yes. When one of our officers goes in to make a purchase, if they knew he was an officer the probability is he would retire from the premises very rapidly indeed. 9979. That is in the case of these Russian and Polish people ?—Yes. 9980. During the period from March to June of this year there were three detections ?—Yes; also bogus clubs.. The first is the Polish and Working Men's Club, carried on in a very rough part of Sil vert own. 9981. That is in the East End too ?—Yes. 9982. Would those be Jews or Christians ?—The Polish Wording Men's Club—Jews. There is a very poor class of people there. 9983. (Chairman.) Were they recent immigrants?— I should think so. The detections at this club were made on Sundays entirely, and the man who kept the place was a man called Vincent Johnson, and he was convicted in 1895, and was again detected in 1900. He absconded in 1900, and then it was found that the so- called club was carried on by his son and son-in-law. In 1902 another detection was made, when the son escaped to join his father in Poland, but the other was arrested, and was fined, or in default of payment was sentenced to imprisonment for 10 months, and he imme- diately plaid the fine. 9984. He escaped to Poland ?—The son escaped to Poland, but the son-in-law paid a fine of £100 immedi- ately. The other two clubs were the Amicizia and the Italian Working Men's Club. 9985. You say these clubs and restaurants are situate in various parts of London, but the number does not in the least degree represent the number of unlicensed places ?—That is so. 9986. Summing up that part of the matter, you would say there is a great prevalence of bogus clubs and un- licensed premises, -and illicit distilling amongst the foreign population, Russian and Polish, Jewish people? —Yes, that is the result. 9987. With regard to forged stamps what have you to say?-—With regard to the forging of stamps I had better just give the definition of a fictitious stamp, because with regard to foreign stamps that is an im- portant item. We have, of course, very large powers with regard to British stamps, but there is a penalty of £20 imposed by the Post Office Protection Act of 1884 in connection with the manufacture or possession of ficti- tious stamps. " For the purposes of this section ' ficti- tious stamp' means any facsimile or imitation or repre- sentation, whether on paper or otherwise, of any stamp for denoting any rate of postage, including any stamp for denoting a rate of postage of any of Her Majesty's colonies, or of any foreign country." 9988. Why do you emphasise that ?—Because it brings in the foreign country and the Colonies particularly. In the month of October, 1901, two officials of the Russian Government came to London in consequence of information they had received that Russian State notes, postage stamps, and Excise labels for tobacco, found to be imported into Russia in large quantities, were manufactured in London by a gang of Jews—emi- grants from Russia. ' 9989. What happened ?—They sought for a particular man, and they found a man at whose house he was in the habit of lodging, whose name was. Samuel Miller, a Russian emigrant Jew residing at 512, Commercial Road East. 9990. A Russian Jew who called himself Samuel Miller?—Yes. Miller was invited' ito call on one of these two men, who was an Excise inspector at Kiev; he was invited to call at his hotel in Fleet Street. He had three interviews with him, and on the third occasion he produced to him 96 sheets of forged Russian postage stamps, each containing 15. These stamps are for 7 copecs, equivalent to lfd. of English money. I have here a sheet of the stamps produced, and a'lso a genuine stamp to which it corresponds (producing same). 9991. (Chairman.) What does that stamp purport to be?—lfd. in English money. 9992. These Russian criminals come here to coin roubles in the same way ?—Yes, I am going to mention that now. This man produced on the other two occasions of his visits, forged Russian notes, the print- ing of which was; not quite finished, and he said he could procure forged. Russian Excise labels for tobacco, if required. 9993. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Did he think these men were going to buy them off him ?—Yes, he thought they were purchasers. 9994. (Chairman.) For circulation in Russia, I sup- pose ?—Yes. The forged tobacco labels represented the/ duty of Excise on tobacco. The man Miller was arrested, and was brought up at the Mansion House Justice Room on the 15th October, and charged with fraud and forgery. The result of it was that the man was remanded, and an Inspector of the City Police called upon me and told me of this man being in custody, and said that they were unable to (hold him onjthe charge on which he bad been arrested, and he asked that we would take a prosecution against him tinder that section 20 to which I referred you in the Actiof 1884. He was brought up on remand—we ex- hibited the Information by order of the Board of Inland Revenue—and the charge against him for which he had been arrested was withdrawn, and we proceeded with our prosecution. He was then fined £20, and five guineas for costs. He had no goods, or not sufficient goods to levy this fine and costs upon, and he was com- mitted to prison for two months in default of payment. In the course of inquiries it was ascertained that Miller was a Polish Jew, and had been about 15 years in London. 9995. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What was his real name?—That did not come out. He had become naturalised. The Information that we had at the same time, which came from the Austrian Consul-General in London, was that forged Austrian bank notes were being circulated in Austria, and that a letter in Hebrew, without signature, but from his address, had been received by a Jew in Austria containing an offer of forged Austrian bank notes. (Chairman.) We are getting a little way away from Alien Immigration. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We might go into the details of every foreign crime committed1 by persons who had been in London 15 years. 9996. (Major Evans-Gordon.) This particular case is an old case, but most of these people you have been talking about are recent arrivals?—Yes. 9997. The illicit still business, and that kind of thing?—Yes. I only mentioned that particular case because it was a recent conviction, and the house seemed to have been used by immigrants who came over for pur- poses of fraud. 9998. Were any other people arrested with this man? —No; only this man. 9999. Have you any other case of forged stamps and forged bank-notes ?—I have one or two oases of forged stamps, but I do not think they are materia] for this particular purpose. The only case that I would mention is in that list that I have handed in—a man called Simon Obolnack, who was convicted on the 1st March, 1901, of having and.using a still without licence; he is one of the persons now in custody on a charge of forgingMINUTES 01 EVIDENCE. J*29 Bank of England notes and having in his possession forged notes. 10000. An imported foreign criminal?—Apparently. The only one that I know who has been over here for some time is the man I mentioned, Miller. 10001. (Chairman.) I have always understood there is a great deal of f orgery in this country by Russians, who come over here to forge Russian roubles and Russian stamps, and they generally come over to this country to commit the forgeries. Why do they come here to forge, rather than complete the forgery in Russia ?—I .suppose the punishment is rather more severe in Russia. It would be rather difficult for us to take a prosecution -against them for forgery. 10002. That is not my point. We do prosecute here, and there are a great many convictions, apparently, of Russians and Poles forging Russian stamps or coining Russian roubles. Why is it they come abroad to effect the forgery, and then send the forged 'matter back to Russia, instead of forging there ?—I suppose they think there is less chance of their being caught. We are not concerned with what they are about over here so much unless the Russian Government were to make some over- tures. But that does not come within my province, and I take it, it would be a matter of criminal investiga- tion. 10003. Do you find them forging anything English at all ? I think you have some cases of their uttering forged English notes?—I should not have those cases. They would not come before me. There is a very large case on now, in which this man Obolnack is concerned. 10004. (Lord Rothschild.) Can you explain what they do with these foreign stamps ; do they send them to their own country ?•—They send them to Russia. They make them over here; that was the story that we had. This inspector from Russia came over here on account of the importation of these stamps into Russia from London. I have a case here that I may tell you of, where an Italian was arrested in London, or charged in London, with the sale of fictitious postage stamps, which, he said were forgeries. Those were all made in Turin, and included English stamps. ! 10005. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is much better busi- ness for them to come here, because in the first place the penalty in Russia would be much more severe, and the power of detection very much greater?—That is the point, I think. 10006. The police can go in and out of the houses all the time, and everybody is watched ?—I think it is much the same as what I said just now with regard to the spirit—'that they manufacture at one place and distri- bute from another. I think they manufacture the stamps here, and send them over to Russia for distri- bution. 10007. (Chairman.) They must, if they are Russian postage stamps, because they are no use here?—No. 10008. A Russian rouble must be sent back when coined ?—Yes. 10009. It must be sent back for distribution; but the actual manufacturer escapes, unless they can trace where it is manufactured. I thing probably this man would have been dealt with more severely if the Russian officers who came over here had consulted our detective staff or the Criminal Investigation Department before they took such extreme measures as they did, and arrested these people.- 10010. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Could they not extra- dite for that?—Oh, yes, for forgery. 10011. The whole point of your evidence is this—that there is a considerable amount of this kind of thing going on among the foreign population that is brought here ?—Yes. 10012. Illicit stills, bogus clubs, the sale of liquor without a licence, and forgeries of this kind ?—Yes. Mr . N. J. Highmore. 3 Dec. '1902. TWENTY-FIFTH DAY. Thursday, 11 th December, 1902. CAXTON HALL, WESTMINSTER. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman.) The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Yallance, Esq. The Rev. Herbert Vincent Eck, m.a., called; and Examined. ^ y Eck, m.a. 10020. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There are two Parlia- ~ : „ mentary Divisions, and there is the Municipal Borough ec' of Bethnal Green?—Yes; it is just north of Stepney. 10021. From that point of view it is taking us out of the district we are in, but it is showing the spread eastwards and northwards ?—Yes. 10013. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you the Rector of /Bethnal Green ?—Yes. 10014. How long have you been in the East-end?— 15 years. 10015. And in Bethnal Green?—And in Bethnal •Green fifteen years. 10016. The whole of that time?—Yes. 10017. Have you observed a change in the character of the district since you have been there?—Yes; I should say it had deteriorated. (Chairman.) How far does Bethnal Green come in the urea we are dealing with? 10017*. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Bethnal Green is not within the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney; it bor- ders on it?—Yes. 10018. Your next parish to Stepney would be Mile End ?—Yes. 10019. (Mr. Vallance.) It is a separate municipal borough, adjoining Stepney ?—Yes. 6144. 10022. You say that there has been a deterioration. Will you describe that, and tell us to what you think it is due ?—I am not at all prepared to say to what it is due. I should not like to say it is due altogether to alien immigration. Post hoc is not propter hoc always. 10023. That is quite true; but there has been a de- terioration ?—There has, I should say, certainly. 10024. And that deterioration has, at all events, been accompanied by a certain inflow of foreigners ?— Yes, I should say that. 10025. What part of the district has been affected by the foreign inflow more especially ?—More especially the part that borders on the Borough of Stepney, 1 should say. Tt330 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : JRcv. II. V. 10026. Is that movement going forward now F—Yes; Eck^j^yk;^ it1 is spreading, I should say. 11 rw i^ino 10027. And accompanied by a displacement, of our * .'•>?>> ' own people?—Yes, certainly. - 10028. Do you find that, in your own parish and in yotii* own congregation, peb|)ie whom you are acquainted with have gone P^I should not say it affects my present congregation much.L ^ 10029. Do you notice an alteration in tfie character of the streets and houses where this inflow has come in ?-—Yes; I should say that ;they are- distinctly more squalid than they were when I first knew them, some of' those streets. 1003Q. §ince. when has this movement towards Bethnal Green been going ouL ?-r-I, should say mainly in the last five years. 10031- And it indicates an expansion of the foreign population, • eastward and northward ?—Yes. 10032. (Chairman.) Can you give lis about the popu- lation of Bethnal Green ?—129^000. 10033. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Those are both the Bethnal Greens ?■—Yes; that is the Borough of Bethnal Green. .15034. (0Jldixmajn.) There are about 2,900 Russian Jews and about 3,400 Russian and Polish Jews ?•<—I have not those figures. 100155. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You say in your state- ment something about the shifting character of the Jewish population. ; What do .you mean by that?~I have noticed that lately there has been a good deal of shifting. I cannot say where they got toy but they do shift ; that, has been particularly brought to my notice by one of the, large Board Schools, which is largely Jewish—at least half is Jewish—-and the children are constantly moving on somewhere else. 10036. And replaced by others?—Replaced by other Jews. 10037. Do the whole family go, or only the husband, or what?—As far as I have been able to observe, the feusband goes first, and the wife and children follow. I have been told that by the head-master of one of the schools, who has found that out. 10038. (Chairman.) Where do they go to ?—It is very difficult to say. 10039. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do they leave the parish ? —Yes; they move off somewhere else; I do not know where they go to. 10040. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you any reason to sup- pose that they leave the country ?—I have no reason to> suppose so ; I have no reason to suppose they do not, on the other hand. 10041. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are these people who have been there for a long time?—No; not a long time. They are people who have all come in and gone out. 10042. New-comers?—Yes. I am not prepared to say that has gone on to a large extent, but it has to some extent, and I thought it was worth mentioning. 10043. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What about the chil- dren in the schools ? There are a great many of the children in the Board Schools now, are there not?— Yes, there are a good many ; but more particularly they are in certain schools. One very large school is about halfiJewish now. It is a new school, a&d it began: from the>beginning. I do not think-they displaced others; I do-not think it: would be right to say that. - 10044./ Can you tell us anything about the increased rents consequent upon this immigration ?—There, again, it is very difficult to say propter hoc because post hoc; but|Vgp;tamly r exits, haye increased, v.ery much, as Jar as -has, vbeelp.. able to find oni. I think it has.Seen largely^ ,the..putting,'^p; of rents,, %'Jewish, jand- . loi$sj anil I think the GeiLtiles follow suit very often. 10045. The market price has gone up with the demand for houses ?—Yes, it certainly has. The going up of , rents is universal all over Bethnad Gi%en;iParish. 10046; Has there been much change in the ownership of«house property ?—'Yes ; I should say there has " Been a good deal. 10047. Now, about the shopkeepers, what h^ve you to say? ;Do the Ishopkeepers suffer from this ?—Y'es; I think very much. I think there is a great disposition, and perhaps a natural disposition, on the part of the : Jews rather to boycott the Christian shops—^perhaps naturally; and I know that many English shopkeepers have moved away, and their places have been taken by. Jews? especially in the Bethnal Green Road, the great thoroughfare of Bethnal Green. 10048. That ,.^ould ,be a .natural tendency for the foreigner or the Jew to deal with his own countrymen? —\ es J''quite natural. - 10049. More than a deliberate boycott; it would be a natural tendency ?—Yes, I should say a natural ten- dency to deal witn his own people. ; 10050- Just as an Englishman invmean wihether they have come straight there, or whether they have come from ^.Stepney and the places round' ? 10074. Yes, recent arrivals ?—That I have no evidence kif to., justify me in speaking, except I could say this, ^hat a goodcmany pf the ^childreh in the schools . of --which, I have been speaking... cannot speak English at •all, WfriC'h rather points to the fact that they are new- -comers.' 10075. When they first pome to the schools th§y can 'speak nd English ?—rA good many of themV TJSt 'iwould point to their being recent arrival^ but I have not gone into the matter, so I cannot say to how large an extent ifchat is so,'but I know it5 is to a ceft^iri extent.•'* 10076. (Chairman.) What happens when they do not 'talk English ?—-It is extremely difficult, except' iii a ^school wQiiehis entirely Jewish. There is one school sin Step^ey; which is- entirely Jewish, ^but in this par- ticular ^schoolw of which I am speaking they are all English teachers, and that complicates the work most : seriously. • - r 10077. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are there any teachers in Board schools that you know of that can speak Yiddish ? —I do not know of any ; I do not know whether in .Stepney or Whitechapel there are. -;. 10078.. >(Chairman*) I suppose these alieiisnare subject to compulsory attendance at school ?—Yes, they i must .send their children. 10079. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do these children learn English very quickly 1—Yes,. I. think .they. pick, it up very quickly. They are with other children, and they are practically bound to speak it. , .. 10080. (Major Evans - Gordon.) We shall 'have evidence about the whole of the school children, so ^e shall-clear that matter up.. Would you say that the influx of foreign people: and other causes increased overcrowding in your-district ?.—Yes, I think I .would say that. .. - . 10081. There would be a tendency for the people driven out to squeeze in' a smaller space?—Yes, and also the putting up of the rents. People who could Afford two rooms' Cain only now afford one. ' I think •that must be so" to some extent. - 10082. Generally speaking you would say the inflow of foreigners is a more or less new phenomenon and an increasing thing ?—A new and increasing thing in Bethnal Green ; I am only speaking for Bethnal Green. .10083. (Mr, Vallance.) When you speak of the in- crease in squalor in certain areas in Bethnal Green, do you mean that there is more squalor where the foreigners are?—Yes, I should say the whole appear- ance of the street was much more squalid than it used to be. 10084. Have you any experience as to the condition Of their homes compared "with the houses of the native population ?—-To some extent I should say they are very much dirtier. 10085. 'Have y6u in your experience found that when t/hey >ha.vte been here a certain time their conditions have improved, and they can compare favourably or other- wise .with the native homes"?-^-You are speaking simply j0-f the homes ? , .. 10086. Yes?—I do not think I could speak to that at all. I have -not quite enough evidence. 10Q87. Are you satisfied in your own mind that the immigration into, your district 'has led to overcrowd- ing, or has the overcrowding ariseii mainly from the in- crease of rents ?—It is very difficult to prove anything like that. 10088. You cannot from your own. experience- refer asae illustration to an instance*^of a house having been 6144. •: tajten -and "the conditions under which it was taken at j$eVt an increased rent by a foreign tenant,?—-No, but I know Eck, m a. it is .SO. Vr\ '• - ■■■ ' < " „■......... -r—.K 10089.. (Chairman.) I, think you have .said;.f15 years H Pec. 1902. y(Au^noticed the , GQ;tnmen^ejnen,t. of 'tlie ^change^fr?- ./No, If have, not noticedL it Beyond .five yea^s. , 10090. It is 15 years since-:yQu have' been inr; Bethnal Green?—-Yes. v : 10091. I think your., experience goes back for 15 years ;, but it is five years since you noticed the change ? —It was just beginning then. 10092. Had. there been any overcrowding before that time ^—Bethnal Green, was 'certainly overcrowded. " «•=. 1Q093. -Ham you ; notipei. an increase in- the over- .crowding ?—Yes, I think so. -10094. tlhese alien immigrants occupy fewer rooms or more rooms per head ?—Fewer. - 10095.. I- do not know, whether your attention has been called to this ; substantially' the population 'is the same in Bethnal Green now as it was 10 years ago ? —There is very little change since the last census. 10096. It is only between 600 and 700?—Yes. 10097. How do you account for the dvefcrowditrg when the immigrants! occupy less room ' than the natural born suojects, if the population remains the ; same or-substantially the same. It may be that there has been some pulling down of houses ?—There has been a certain amount of pulling down of houses in; the whole of Bethnal Green. Where the County Council Boundary Street area, is, there have been several blocks' of 'houses "pulled 'down, which perhaps might account for it to some extent. ,10098. I think I gave, you just now the number of Polish Jews in Bethnal Green. Altogether you may take it, I think, as between 3,200 and 3,300, all foreigners. That would be a slight abnormal increase in the foreigners which may have existed, and you-say may have come in since ?•—Yes. 10099. Still, I do not myself see how, if the popula- tion has not increased, you can trace the overcrowd- ing ?—I quite understand your point. • .. 10100. It is the alien immigrants we are dealing with?—Yes. 10101. If the population has not increased, must not the overcrowding have come from some alteration in the structure of the buildings ?—It may be so. As I said,, I am not at all prepared to say that the over- crowding has come simply from the alien immigrants. iJ am not at all prepared to say that. 10102. Still, there are the alien immigrants, and there is overcrowding ?—Yes, and I know of individual instances of how houses are crowded. One rather goes upon that I- think. Houses which were not1 nearly so full of people before are now crowded to their very extreme limit. ■ • ... 10103. It must be for some reason or other—fewer houses, or some cleanance?—Yes. 10104. Have you had any lodging-houses or Rowton , houses built there at all ?—No. ......10105. Nothing to supply any loss ?—No. 10106. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The Boundary Street area cleared out a tremendous lot of people?—Yes; and two large Board schools have been built, and have cleared out a great number. 10107.. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The clearance of Boun- dary Street was before 1891, was it not ?—I rather think it was. 10108. It may have been opened later; but the clearance took place before ?—Yes. 10109. (Chairman.) When did the Board schools you speak of come ?—Within the last three years ; they dis- placed a good many. 10110. And they did displace a good many houses ? —Yes, the two I am speaking of did, certainly. 10111. Was it 200 or 300 houses?—Oh, no, not so many as that. 10112. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They clear them 20 at a time.- The School Board is careful not to come. within the Standing Orders, about 20 houses, and they generally, take 19, because if they took more they would have to rehouse £—That ~ may be so. 10113.~ (Chairman.) Take the overcrowding by itself. T T 233 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I. Rev. E. V. With your local knowledge, can you suggest any remedy : Eck, m.a. for this overcrowding, apart from any immigration - question? Can anything be done to prevent the over- all Dec. 1902. crowding?—I am afraid it is too big a question for me. People would say at once, " Enforce the existing laws " ; but it is very difficult to enforce the existing laws about overcrowding. Where are they to go to? They must go somewhere, if they are ejected. 10114. It is a very, very broad question?—Yes. 10115. If you turn these people into the street, the question is, what is to become of them ?—Quite so. * 10116. Can you locate these alien immigrants, espe- cially the Russian and Polish Jews, in any particular localityP Do they hang together or reside together?— I am afraid I have not been able to differentiate between alien and alien. I could not say where the Russians are, particularly, and would not be prepared to say that they do herd together. 10117. The great bulk of your Bethnal Green immi- grants are these Russians and Poles?—Yes. 10118. They really are in the proportion of five to one all the others put together?—Yes. 10119. Therefore, we may treat the aliens for that purpose as a whole. You are quite right to differentiate between them. Do you find the aliens, as a rule, do reside together?—Yes, distinctly so. 10120. You would observe, I suppose, that most of them speak this jargon?—Yes, Yiddish. 10121. What are the habits of these people?—When you say habits, what do you mean ? 10122. I mean as regards temperance and vice?—I should say they are extremely temperate and extremely moral. I should wish it to be understood when I speak of deterioration, I do not think there is any moral ! deterioration at all. They are a good example to many of our own people in those ways. 10123. I suppose you have noticed they will live mom* numerously in a house than the British subjects ?—Yes, I am quite sure of that, and also with regard to< the number that will sleep in a room. 10124. And as to' cleanliness, what do you say ?—That is very bad. There, deterioration is most certainly to be observed. 10125. Do they improve at. all when they have lived longer in this country, or do they continue in the same condition ?—I cannot say. I have not seen much altera- tion or change. 10126. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That would be partly due to the fact that they are shifting a great deal there ? —Yes, I should not like to press what I said about their ^lifting, because I do not know to> how great an extent that may exist. It has only come under any notice by some instances. 10127. (Chairman.) Have you many lodging-houses in Bethnal Green ?—No, very few. 10128. You mingle with these people. I doi not know whether you have any suggestion do give as to whether anything can be done by the authorities to lessen this evil of overcrowding?—I am afraid I have not; I think it is quite beyond me. I am afraid so. 10129. What is the natural outside boundary of Bethnal Green? When you say they shift, do they go further away from the centre of London ?—Are you talk- ing of our own people now? 10130. I will take first the native inhabitants ?—They overflow further east and further north, to places like Walthamstow. 10131. Does that mean railway accommodation to bring theon back to work?—Yes, it means they must come into their work by the railway, and they often get cheaper rents, but the money is swallowed up by the railway fares. Of course, they are very, very cheap, but it often means two or three members of the family coming in to work. 10132. Again calling your attention to the fact that the population has not very -much increased, would any ordinary observer notice any change in Bethnal Green in the last five years?—I doubt it. I do not think an ordinary observer would if he was not living there constantly. 10133. You march with Stepney, but if Stepney goes on increasing, Bethnal Green would probably suffer?— Yes, I should think so. 10134. (iMajor Evans-Gordon.) It is more in the nature of an overflow into Bethnal Green?—Yes. 10135. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The Boundary Street scheme was the 19th July, 1890, but I think the scheme was not confirmed till after the date of the census of 1891, so probably the original inhabitants would have come into that census?—Yes. 10136. There were 5,719 persons to be displaced, and the rehousing accommodation was for 5,100?—I have not the figures. (Chairman.) It would not make much difference. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Out of the whole of that mass of people only two people living in those buildings lived in the area before. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There are the same number of people, but not the same people. (Mr. Vallance.) It points to an increased congestion. (Chairman.) If the reinstatement of houses was carried out, with the exception of 700, they would be about the same. (Mr. Vallance.) They provide for quite another class. (Chairman.) Is the class better or worse? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Better. These Boundary Street places are palaces, and there are clerks and police- men and artizans and well-to-do people—doctors even. (Chairman.) Are they high rents? (Major Evans-Gordon.) The rents are pretty high, but much more than the people could pay who were there before. Eev. A. E. alt on, m.a. The Rev. Arthur Edison Dalton, M.A., called; and Examined. 10137. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you the Rector of Stepney parish, and Rural Dean of the district ?—Yes. 10138. How long have you been in the East End ?— 22 years. 10139. How long in Stepney ?—Only six. I was down at the far end before in Poplar, just on the borders of Canning Town, the last parish of Poplar. 10140. Have you noticed a change in your district— that is, in the east portion of Stepney parish?—You mean the east portion of the Stepney borough ? 10141. Your portion is the eastern end of Stepney borough ?—-Yes, we are east of Whitechapel. 10142. The western end is the most affected by th« alien immigrants?—Certainly. 10143. Has the tide of alien immigrants reached you at all?—Yes, it has reached us, and is flowing in very strong indeed. It has been, I may say, all the time I have been there, but it seems to increase every year. 10144. Is that accompanied by a displacement of our own people?—Very great indeed. 10145. Do you think that displacement is a hardship on our own people ?—It is a very great hardship indeed. Our own people deplore it very much, but they are forced out. 10146. Those people that are displaced have a great necessity to live in that neighbourhood, I assume ?—A great many have. 10147. Their work is near there, and so> on ?—Yes, with a great many, and a great many wish to live there' from old association. They have lived there for a great many years. 10148. And being turned out, of course, does not give rise to any kindliness of feeling and that constant move- ment and displacement ?—No, not by any means. 10149. It is a very unfortunate phenomenon, you would say ?—Yes, and leads to a very great deal of ill feeling. There is a very strong feeling indeed against the aliens, so strong that I have often wondered it does not show itself more than it does in action, but we are a very law-abiding people. If it was not for that I am quite certain there would be a very strong expression of feeling showing itself in action. 10150. The people are nearly all weekly tenants are tliey not?—Yes. ' 10151. Would you say that they are turned out underMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ,533 the circumstances without much consideration?—I should think without any. 10152. And the people, of course, resent that ?—Yes. 10153. That has been accompanied by a very great rise of rents?—Yes, they are very often turned out by the raising of the rents—more often than not. If you are suddenly told your rent is going to be raised from 12s. to 18s., and if you do not like it you can go, they have to go, because they cannot afford to pay more. 10154. It is Hobson's choice?—Yes. 10155. Has there been a change of ownership in the house property about here ?—There is always a good deal of buying a.nd selling going on. Lately almost all the property, the great, bulk of the property which has been sold has been sold to Jews. They are buying a good deal. 10156. The houses are falling into foreign and Jewish hands, largely?—Yes. 10157. That is accompanied by a rise of rents and the substitution of a foreign population for the English population displaced ?—Yes. 10158. We have heard it stated here, and it has been stated elsewhere, that this alien immigration has had one effeqf, that is, it has improved the moral tone of the place; that is to say, the streets, and so on, that were formerly haunts of vice and disorderly houses, have been purified by the inflow. What is your view about that?—I should not think it was in the least bit true. I should think there has been no improvement of that kind. You will find improvements of that kind going on quite as largely in districts that are not yet alien, as you will in districts which are, because there has been more public feeling: on the matter. There is a deeper sense of responsibility, I hope, on our Borough Councils than on our vestries of old, and the whole general up- ward tendency has been to improve and to do away with those centres of vice. I take a very notable street in our old parish called Ettriek Street. Twenty years ago two-thirds of the houses in one part of that street were brothels. 30159. That is in Poplar?—Yes. We cleared the lot of them away, took action against them, and cleared A.hem out entirely, and that is now a very respectable street. 10160. That would be quite independent of alien im- migration?—Absolutely independent. We were not touched by it in Poplar at all, and that has been going on in other parts. I daresay 25 years ago there were a good many streets not really safe to walk down after dark in the Borough of Stepney, but you would not find one now, whether inhabited by aliens or others. 10161. Do you remember the old Ratcliff Highway, and those parts?—I never knew Ratcliff Highway in the old days; 10162. That is a very celebrated place?—Yes. 10163. The change in that part I understand has been caused by the change in the port of London to a large extent?—I am sure I do not know Ratcliff High- way personally; but I should not,have thought that it was a place where there were so very many aliens. 10164. Not now?—No. 10165. And the district is very much improved?—I do not think there is any improvement by means of aliens. 10166. You would not say, generally speaking, that the clearances and improvements, and the removal of disorderly houses, and so on, have been caused by the alien immigration ?—I should not say so, certainly. As •a matter of fact in Poplar when I was there a large number of our prostitutes were foreigners, and foreign Jewesses. 10167. In Poplar?—Yes, a very large number were. So much so that the Chief Rabbi was dealing with the matter with us for some years. 10168. (Sir Kenelrn Digby.) What nationality did they belong to ?—They were Germans, I think, chiefly. I am speaking now of 15 years ago—I think it was quite that. I was in touch with the Rabbi through the work there. 10169. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is there much foreign prostitution in the neighbourhood of the Commercial Road now ?—I do not know. I am very seldom in Com- mercial Road. I have not heard of it so much. There is still a good deal down in Pop] ar. ' 10170. Have you noticed" a speech which was made'7 recently by the Bishop of Stepney with regard to this? A. E. In the course of his remarks he is alleged to have said : Dalton, M.A. '"'East London was growing more and more poverty —— stricken. Li some districts every vestige of comfort 11 Dec. 1902. had been absolutely wiped out, the Jews coming in'like — an Army, eating up Christian Gentiles, or driving them out." Then the report proceeds: " He (the Bishop) .prophesied that before his hair was grey the old parish church of Stepney would be standing amid an alien population. He recognised the vigour and intelligence among the aliens, but the fact remained that they were swamping whole areas once populated by English, people, and our churches were continually being left like islands in the midst of the alien sea " ?—Yes, his Lordship said that Stepney Parish Church would soon be an island in the sea of aliens. We are certainly tend- ing very strongly in that direction ; but I hope it will be some little time before we quite come to it. 10171. You would say that the resentment which is undoubtedly felt is a perfectly natural thing, and a thing that nobody nee 1 be surprised at?—Certainly, iny surprise is that it does not find more expression than ii does. 10172. Would you say with regard to the newcomers, the foreign arrivals ; that they are recent arrivals in the country, or people who have been here for some time ?— No<, it is confined to recent arrivals. You constantly hear an unknown tongue being spoken, and in the schools one hears constantly of children coming in who cannot speak or read English. They are wonderfully- quick and wonderfully intelligent, and they very soon. pick it up. 10173. Have you got in your own church schools any foreign children?—Not in our own church schools, because we are full. We have been full for some years, and we are able to decline them, but in a neighbouring one, of which I am manager, in Redmond's Road, they have very nearly 50 per cent, of Jewish children—so- much so that you get the anomaly of a church school which is now having Jewish holidays. 10174. What do you think the effect on the Sunday of the foreign immigration is. Has that been ver> strong ?—I think it all tends in a bad direction. Sunday observance is not a strong feature of the East End, and has not been for a good many years, therefore it is a,, little difficult to speak about that. It is, I think, tend- ing to make it worse in the way of opening more shops, on Sundays, and a general disregard of Sunday, and our own people are complaining about it so much. I had an instance only the other day. Some people said *, " We are afraid we shall have to move away because the two next houses to us are for sale; they are sure to be bought by Jews, and we shall not be able to stand that. We were living before next to Jews, and" we had to move. "~ I said, " Why cannot you live next to them ? " They • said, " One thing, Sunday is nothing to them, and there. is music and dancing and singing going on all day- Sunday; we cannot stand that, and we do not much* like their ways and manners." In that way our own people strongly feel it, because even if our own people are not great church goers most of them like a quiet time on Sunday. They do not get up very early to begin with, but they like a rest, and they feel it very . much. 10175. It is their day off, in fact?—Yes, and they do not like noise next door to them. (Chairman.) I fancy there ,are some localities in the West End they would not like under those conditions ?—< Yes. 10176. (Sir Kenelrn Digby.) With regard to thj.. character of these people, do you agree with the other evidence we have had as to the sober character of the. . Jews?—Yes, you never, or hardly ever, see any of these people drunk, and in fact in some parts of the Stepney- Borough we have had several public-houses closed which are in Jewish quarters, simply because there f no business. They are starved out. 10177. And generally as to their moral character would you find much fault with the alien population. Do you think they compare favourably with ours?—I do not think one can give evidence with regard to that. One is always afraid where there happens to be over- crowding, that immorality may occur. . 10178. Do you see much of the new-comers when they first come. I suppose they hardly come to your N part?—Some of them come and live down there, but I have not been brought much into touch with them personally.334 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : •Smlt&ii) •Wbee. 190f. V E. 10179. Tlie people you have- to deal with are rather m.a. those you have been in touch with some time ?—I have not had much, personal dealing with them except pass- ing up and down the street one sees them. , We have in our parish,24,000 people, and if 25, per cent. .are not fpireignerS; still we have a very large number, and we have not yet attempted visitations among them, or any- t'aingi.of that kind,. We are confining our work at present to our own population, because the district is so enormous, therefore one would not have much personal , touch with them. I do not very often go into their homes, for instance. : '10180; Will you look at this map which is attacheu to the bpok called " The Jew in London." In the lighter colour you have 25 per cent. That is three years ago, in 18,99. I suppose now you would mark that map in dif- ferent colours to some extent ?—That side of Stepney Green I should mark as more like 35 per cent. Then some of these streets like Cadiz Street are becoming very 'Jewish. A good many of those streets are getting more and more J ewish. Rectory Square, for instance. Then Trafalgar Square I see is marked 50 per cent, already. 10181. Would that be about it still ?—Trafalgar Square is 75 per cent, certainly now. Then you get a square like Albert Square, which has been bought up lately. I believe that is almost entirely Jewish, and all these other streets are becoming still more Jewish. 1Q182. (Major Evans Gordon.) Garden Street, and all about there ?—Yes. Garden Street is entirely Jewish. (Chairman*) When the witness is speaking of Stepney, does he include Mile End Old Town ? 10183. (Mr.: Vallance.) The Stepney you are speak- ing of - is the Stepney district, and includes the Borough (d Stepney ?—Yes. 10184. (Major Evans Gordon.) There are five Parlia- mentary divisions in the Municipal Borough, of which Stepney is one. Whitechapel is one, St. George's-in-the- East is one, Mile End is one, and Limehouse is one ? —Yes. " : 10185. (Mr. Vallance.) The Stepney to which yon refer is the mother ecclesiastical district of Stepney - Yes, that is my own particular parish. 10186. (Chairman.) What is included in that mother ^parish?:—In my own particular parish there are 24,000 ^people. 10187. I gather that Shad well, Ratcliffe, and Lime- jhouse are in the Parish of Stepney ?—-My church stands in the Hamlet of Bat cliff e. The old1 Stepney included r/of co.urse, everything, that the borough now includes and municipal as welly but. Stepney Parish for some years ^was made up of three hamlets, Mile End Old Town, Mile En(l New Town, and Ratcliffe. Bow had be.en vtakem off„ Whitechapel had been taken off, and Wapping, , Shadwell, and St. George's have all been taken off. Mile End 0M Town and Mile End New Town and Bat- " cliffe were the three hamlets which were under-separate local government) but the Parliamentary divisions are all different again. It is a most dreadfully puzzling place. Stepney is the most hopeless place to unaer- ,« stand the boundaries of that there is in Londo®, I .think. 10188. (Mr. Vallance.) Limehouse is a separate Par- liamentary division ?—Yes, but Limehouse runs right up to me. 10189. And Stepney, as a Parliamentary division, eon - sisfcs of Shadiwell and Ratcliffe ?—No,, Ratclifire is in Limehouse, Shadwell is in St. George's, and though I live in Stepney Parliamentary division my church is in Limehouse. Parliamentary division, so I defy any man to understand the divisions. 10190. (Major Evans Gordon.) But you take in a - lot - of the Parliamentary division of Stepney ?t—Almost the whole of the parish, but just a little slip of Limehouse comes in. 1019L Your parish is situated practically entirely in tthe Parliamentary division of Stepney?—Yes. (Chairman.) In the census returns, which we have here, in that which is called Stepney, there has been no increase of the population in ten years.' It remains stationary. (Major Evans Gordon.) You will not get anything analogous to Mr. Dalton's parish in the census returns. That includes Shadwell and Wapping and Ratcliff, where already more foreigners have come in. 10192. (Mr. Vallance.) The Stepney, to whiehiyounare referring, is the registration district and poor law district of Stepney?—I may say with regard to that, and I feel very strongly about Poplar, that the census returns were not in the least bit true. ' 10193. {Chairman.) Will you just explain that ?— Where you have, got. a man holding a house, and he has got a family, in every room in the house, or possibly two in some—because there was a half-room advertised to be let in Rectory Square the other day—he would not make a very full return, and his return is not checked in any way. 10194., That would be an evil dependent upon the inherent composition of human nature, and would be an accident of his life ; but, probably, those circumstances existed in 1891 as they did in 1901 ?—There is an addi- tional reason, because the overcrowding:. is very much more now. There would not be the same reason for making a false return in 1891. -There was not so much overcrowding. . lQl^b. (Mr. Vallance.) Can you speak of any definite instance ?—No, I only say that is my impression. 10196. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You know , very definite steps were taken to remedy that at the time of the census?—Were there? 10197. Yes?—-I heard, it was in some very limited areas, but I thought it:was only in very limited areas; 10198. (Mr. Vallance.) You say the returns were not checked, but are you not aware that the enumerator's duty was to ascertain and to secure all the assistance possible for the purpose of obtaining an accurate return? —Yes, but how could he ascertain? He said, "Have you not got anybody else living in this house?" " No, I have not." He had no power to say, " I want to go through the house and search," had he? 10199. He had the assistance of the Jewish com- munity in the matter ?—That may be. 10200. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Did you know the.ve was a good deal done in that way?—I know in some1 parts there was, but I only give that as my impression, and that impression is very strongly with me. 10201. (Chairman.) In your own parish has there been any loss in the number of houses—have they decreased from clearances and other causes ?—No, I should think they have rather increased. I think they had just before the census. They "built some large buildings on Stepney Green, called Stepney Green Dwellings, which certainly hold a, great many more people than were displaced. I am not quite sure whether that was before or after 1901. 10202. If the houses remained the same your view i& that there must be an increase of population not shown in the census?—The population in my own particular parish has increased from 22,000 to 24,000, according to the census. I should have expected a very much larger increase, because during the last ten years there has been certainly, apart from alien immigration, a ■continual deterioration going on—people moving out- side, and people who had to come in by train, and the young people who went into the City moving Out to the suburbs. That has been going on for a good many years right throughout the-East of London, beginning with the employers of labour, who have all cleared out who used to live on their works, and have been followed by others, and now our better-to-do mechanics are going out. 10203. (Mr. Vallance.) Are the buildings which have been put on Stepney Green block dwellings?—Yes. 10204. Did they take the place of smaller houses?— Yes ; I do not know the houses which were there before* 10205. The enumeration of a block as one house in the place of a large number of houses, would represent a greater congestion, would it not?—Yes, certainly. 10206*. (Chairman.) Do the same class of tenants go into the new house as came from' the old?—-No. 10207. You have observed the conduct of these alien immigrants: what do you say as to them contrasted with our English people ?—Their behaviour in the streets is all right. 10208. You cannot very well visit these alien immi- grants because of their language ?—No. 10209. Have you heard how they compare with regard to temperance, and the women with regard to chastity ? —With regard to temperance the evidence one gets from the streets is that they are good distinctly. Chastity we have no evidence of, except, as I say, that when. I was in Poplar, certainly the greater number of our prosti- tutes there were foreigners.r MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. •335 10210. When they arrive certainly we understand that their habits are not cleanly ?—That certainly is what I heard on all hands. Some of my people who live next door to them say they are so dirty in their habits; 10211. Do you think, as time goes on, they get better ? —A6 time goes on, as they make a little money, they get a little more comfortable. A man was COmplain- iilg to me only the other day, and he said he would 'have td 'move away from where he was living. He was living in Whitechapel, andihe told me the house opposite was occupied by foreigners, who had no blinds to their windows. I%ey ;dres>sed. and undressed in public, and, as he said, " I could not have my children living oppo- site that, so I had to move them away." -10212, {Major jEvans Gordon.) What you say is this, the people that are moved out of the district are a better class of people ?—Yes. 10213, I understand your point to be that where those better class people occupy a house, or a large portion of the house, to themselves, they have been replaced by .people. who crowd in much more ?—Yes. ! 10214. Consequently you infer from that that there has been a large increase m population?—Yes. 10215. And you do not think that that increase is shown in the census ?—No, nothing like what I should have expected to be shown. It was not only the alien immigrants that affected that. We found, first of all, there was this big clearance in the Boundary Street area, and there was a big clearance made to the north of Holborn. I forget What property that was on, but it was a few years ago. We found those people pressing down to us for lack of accommodation where they had been turned out, and they certainly filled our houses more full than they had been before, so thait it became exceedingly difficult to find a house in Stepney, and it is now. I 'have known people sleep for-a fortnight' in a coal shed because they literally could not get premises in Stepney, and their labour was there, and they had $o b& there. Now that the foreign immigration is in- creasing so much it becomes worse than ever, and now the nexlt layer of our population—our better-to-do mechanics—are being driven out. 10216. (Chairman.) Do you know at all where they go to?—They go down to Ilford and Forest Gate and Leytonstone. 10217. (Sir Kenelrn Digly.) There is an enormous in- crease there now?—Enormous. 10218. (Chairman.) And the railways bring them back to their work?—Yes, the railway accommodation is fairly good. I ithink the Great Eastern does what it can to bring these people back ; but it is very difficult,. Eev. A. E. because the numbers are getting so enormously greater, Dalton^uA. and they all want to come up by the workmen's trains. —— ' 11 Dec. 1902. 10219. (Major Evans-Gordon.) So that the fact of —__ their having better-or Cheaper accommodation down ' ™ * there is discounted by the railway -fares, and also by the great trouble it is, and the difficulty of getting up in time, and so on?—Yes. 10220. That is a distinct hardship, because they prefer to live where they were before ?—Yes, they do, it sayes time, and they get home quicker in the evening. 10221. (Chairman.) It also saves some little expense ? —Yes. Rents are, so high in Stepney that you can live cheaper elsewhere. Our rents have gone up perfectly enormously. In some cases they have gone up almost 50 per cent. 10222. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you know any- thing about key money ?—Yes, I hear of it constantly— people giving as much as £5 for the key. 10223. (Chairman.) Who receives it, the landlord or the outgoing tenant ?■—The landlord, as a rule, or some- times the outgoing tenant. 10224. (Major Evans-Gordon.) All these influences that we have been talking of about the alien immigra- tion inflow from the other side, and the lower class of population, and the constant going out of the better- to-do people give rise to a much closer packing into the houses?—Yes. 10225. And consequently a very great increase of population ?—Yes, I should think so. 10226. From your five years' experience you can not understand the census returns at all?—No3 I cannot understand the census returns at, all. 10227. You would say there would be very great diffi- culty in getting accurate figures either of the English or foreigners there?—Yes, in either case. 10228. (Chairman.) We cannot go back to the old areas we have had ; but in some of these districts, suck as Rat cliff, there has been an extraordinary decreases in the number of houses?—-Yes. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then we come back to the^ definition of " house." A house may mean a place with five people or 500 people. (Mr. Vallance.) And the definition in the two * < censuses vary. » 10229. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And the areas vary. .. To get to an accurate result is almost impossible ?—Yes., The Reverend Ernest Ootjrtenay Carter, called ; and Examined. 10230. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you the Vicar of St. Jude's, Whitechapel ?—Yes. 10231. How long have you been there ?—Four years. 10232. And before that were you in the East End ? —No, I was not. 10233. You know the subject we are inquiring about, that of alien immigration ? Will you tell us what you have observed in the four years, and whether you have seen a change?—I do not think I have seen much change in four years ; but in the course of four years I have become a more experienced observer. 10234. But the district you deal with was, when you came, already occupied very largely by foreigners ?— Yes. I was looking up an old report this morning, and I find when I first came there was a population of some 2,100 non-Jewish inhabitants in my parish (I did not make this report for the purpose of this Commission, but only for my own friends), and I estimate it now as •about 100 less, but practically it is the same. It is a little less, it must be less, because when a Christian does move, out a Jeiw comes in. 10235. What would be the total population) in your parish ?—I should think the day population is between 6,000 and 7,000, and the night population anything you like. .I have no figures. I imagine it is over- crowded to any extent. It is only stopped by the walls. 10236. (Chairman.) Is that at night from the lodging- * * houses or the habits of the people ?—-It is that many lodgers are taken in. I have' inquired into that all I can, and from people who really know, and that is my conscientious conviction.' .. 10237. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is a great differ- ence between the night, and day population ?- wrote that even to the census authorities. 10238. {Chairman.) In many places the day population far exceeds the night, but the reason is that the poorer people are driven in of a night ?—I believe you may stand at some large blocks of buildings and imagine that an excursion train has just arrived; I gather that front people whom I have taken into my confidence, and who* have taken me into theirs, and that is my conscientious; • belief, although it is only an impression. I do not act - in any way as a spy. 10239. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is there any strong feel- ing as regards this alien immigration question among; your parishioners P—Yes, a very strong feeling indeed—- not the least the sort of feeling that exists, on the Con- tinent, but really they are being displaced. 10240. It is not. a religious feeling?-—It is not the sort of feeling that operated in that famous case in. France;—nothing of that sort. We should all -be on the Slide of justice in any case. It is not the sort of feeling; that caused such trouble- in France a few years ago. We are all absolutely wishing to be right and just in the matter, but we cannot help observing what we do ob- serve. That is the truth of it. 10241. What is it that you would say that you have observed that causes this feeling?—1That they really are displaced, and a sample of it may be seen in the streets. Two or three Sundays ago I was walking with a lady round a corner we call Webb's Corner, aiid^tliere was a man who was not going to any church, but. going; away from it. He was with a child in the' middle of this throng, and protesting against the fact that he could not walk out on a. Sunday morning to take his Rev. -Yes I barter.336 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION j Rev. pleasure. I got up there just as the foreigners were EM Carter, going to disperse round him, so he did not even see me. I said I was there to help him if he wanted any help. 11 Dec. 1902. He did noit want it—hut there he was. I happened to —*- come back unexpectedly in half an hour, and we had to walk in the roads. That happens every Sunday. They do not stop outside my church during the time1 of service. 10242. All the foreign people crowd about in the road ? —Yes, on Saturday afternoon it is the same. In Groulston Street it is the same. I have some pictures here, but they represent a special market area. They are photographs taken not by me, but they are real photographs of the lane on Sunday morning. They were not taken for the purposes of this Commission. 10243. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Your church is clcse to Brick Lane?—Yes, in Commercial Street. 10244. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What should you say is the attitude of the foreign population towards our native population P—The lower classes of them do not appear to be grateful for that sort of Christian tolerance with which we treat them. It does happen that they do say those two words in the hearing of a clergyman which t-hey ought not to say, and I have been advised by a magistrate that that may be regarded as calculated to promote a breach of the peace. They do use those two words sometimes when they see a clergyman that they oushit not to use. I hardly like to mention them here. There is no personal feeling, but it is merely that they geem to dislike an English clergyman, and that is occasionally so. It is all the more remarkable, because the clergy in the East End are otherwise universally well treated. 10245. And children going to Sunday School feel that sort of thing?—I have heard that it has been said to them. I do not in the least say that they do not say things back. 10246. It all gives rise to a certain amount of bitter- ness ?—Yes, I think it rather hard lines when we try to teach the people to be tolerant and law-abiding that they should say things that a clergyman hates to hear, but which he is bound toi take notice of. I do take notice of it, and when they go away they say worse things. They never come to face you. 10247. Do you feel the effect on the Sunday of the large foreign colony there?—Yes, we do feel that. ♦ Sunday is the greatest difficulty of it all. The Sunday -question is the cause of the greatest feeling of all. The -only possible solution of it is that Jews and Gentiles rshould keep the same day as Sunday. That would be a -good thing all round for the purpose of trade as well -as the purpose of religion. That is my strongest point, and if I said nothing beyond that I should like to say to that. 10248. (Chairman.) Petticoat Lane is a locality that '-one has heard of all one's life, that is frequented, as I .always understood, on Sunday morning, by Jews, who would be British born Jews before this alien immigra- tion came to a head ?—Yes I daresay that is so, my Lord. 10249. Have the numbers increased in Petticoat Lane ? Is Petticoat Lane within your parish?—Part of it is— one side of it. 10250. Did you ever have occasion to visit it on Sunday morning?—I went round there the other morning at 10 o'clock, but it was not very active then. It is really . most active, I think, later on, when we are in church. 10251. What goes on there—is it the buying and selling -of all kinds of things?—Yes, clothes, in Petticoat Lane *-(that is, Middlesex Street), and I think eatables more in Wentworth Street. 10252. Have you any information to give us as to -whether these alien immigrants have rendered Petti- »coat Lane more crowded—do you know anything about -that subject?—No, I met a clergyman the other day who used to be in my parish, and he said, " When I first came to the# parish, 15 or more years ago, we often uned to visit Christians in Wentworth Street, but now there are none " ; that is, not in this part which is called the market part of it. 10253. Of your o wn kno wledge you. know nothing about the increase of Petticoat Lane from the normal to the abnormal ?—I should fancy it has been as full as it could be for a long series of years. It is used by Gentiles as well as by Jews, I am bound to say, on Sunday mornings. There is no doubt about, that, I am afraid. 10254. They go to deal in these low-priced articles? —I think so. 10255. You spoke of offensive language being used ?— Occasionally it-is used. 10256. In what language are the words uttered?—In English. It is nothing personal to ourselves, but only to the Christian profession which one is supposed to belong to. 10257. It is rather in the abstract, but yet it is meant for you particularly ?—It is meant for one's ears, but it is not personal to me. 10258. I do not understand they attack you person- ally?—I am afraid I have not made myself clear. 10259. They are words that are not applicable to in- dividuals, and they are not applied to you personally? -—They were used in my hearing for the purpose of making me look up. 10260. They were not words of personal abuso to you ? —No, nothing of the kind. Nothing of the kind ever happens in the East End at all. I am not representing those as being more than young children. I am not representing in the least that offensive language is ever used by any Jew to any of us except, as I say, in these cases. 10261. Do you trace this objectionable state of things to the alien immigrant people or to the more normal population ?—I should hope that they have not long been in England, or otherwise I hope they would have learnt to treat us better. 10262. The words are spoken in the English language? —Yes, one very easily gets hold of one or two words in any foreign language of a certain kind. 10263. I understand now that the words which are objectionable rather proceed from the view that a Jew holds, as compared to the views that a Christian would hold?—Yes, they are words which a Christian would not use in that sort of way. 10264. But a Jew would ?—They are words with regard to the founder of our religion. His name is mentioned in a derisive tone of voice. They are very offensive to us, and I should not dream of passing that by. 10265. Have you any reason to suppose that such abuse of the Christian religion would come more from a foreign Jew than froim an English Jew ?—I think it really does come from those who least know us. I think I am right in saying that. 10266. Yo-u think it is more likely to come from some- one who does not appreciate us at all ?—I should say it has come from someone who does not know us very well. 10267. Did you notice any foreign kind of tone in the voice?—Oh, no. You may go for weeks and months and not hear it. It is only occasionally that it happens. The point I make on it is that it does show that they do not really appreciate what we are trying to do' in order to make things go< well. 10268. I understand you to mean an uneducated, thoughtless class of population from whom, whether English or foreigners, such language might come ?—Yes, that might be so. I say that they may have imitators only, but it is a thing which gives rise to very strong feelings, and we are bound to have these strong feelings, I think, if I might say so. 10269. From your personal observation, have you seen anything of the foreign population that is with you?— Net very much, although we do what we can for them. I am sometimes brought to their houses by Provident Club collections. I did collect once a little bit for Mrs. Adler, when some of her visitors did not come down, and if they come to me to sign papers I am always glad to do that for them, and I go and see them then. Those are rather the better class, I think. 10270. Have you come in contact with many alien immigrants who have recently arrived in the country ?— Not so much, I think. Those who would want me to do those things for them are the better class. I always do it. Our dealings with them have been perfectly friendly in that way. For instance, for some time we collected from them for the Provident Bank as well as from the Christians, and there is a perfectly amicable feeling in that way, and I trust it may long be so. 10271. (Mr. Vallance.) You spoke of the excess of population at night, and your noticing crowds of people lesorting to their lodgings ?—No, I did not say that. I stay that was represented to me. I said I did not act as a spy, and I never have in any way. 10272. The question I want to ask possibly you may not be able to answer. Were those persons who were crowding back to their lodgings and homes for accom-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 337 modation of the alien class ?—Yes, they were. I am only saying what I really was told, and I believe nothing but a fire—I have been told this on the highest possible authority—ever reveals what the real popula- tion is. Then they come out in a hurry. 10273. {Major Evans-Gordon.) There was a recent fire?—Yes, I was told long before that by someone ;whose name I will not quote, but who knows all about it, but the great difficulty is in these cases that we cannot say exactly how many persons there are. The Bev, Sunday question is the great question. If we had it on E. C. Garter, the same day very great trouble and difficulty woull —— disappear then 11 Dec; 1802. 10274. (Chairman.) You would apply that to Britis'i ..." Jews as well as foreign Jews?—Yes. Adjourned for a short time. Mr. Samuel Mather, called ; and Examined. Mr. S. Mather. 10275. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You are Divisional Superintendent of the Tower Hamlets Division of the School Boird for London?—That is so. . 10276. Will you tell us what this Division comprises ? Does it include the whole of the municipal borough of Stepney ?—Yes, and Poplar too. 10277. Does it include any of Bethnai Green and Hackney -No, not Bethnal Green, 10278. It really is the municipal borough of Stepney -plus Poplar?—Yes, the two U gether. 10279. Both the Parliamentary divisions P—Yes. 10280. Will you please give us the figures you have prepared as to the children in the elementary schools of your Division ?—I have made out a list of all the schools. There are five purely Jewish schools. These are under Jewish management, and carried on by the Jewish community. You notice there is one a little distinct from the others—the Spanish and Portuguese Jews' School in Thrawl Street. That used to be in the City of London, but they had to give up their premises there, and they built a new school in the Tower Hamlets, - 10281. We might get the total without going into ©ach one?—-There is accommodation for 6,180 children. The details are these : — In Whitechapel, the Jews' Eree School, Bell Lane, with accommodation for 3,408 boys and girls. The Jews' Infants, Commercial Street, with accommodation for 906 infants. The Spanish and Portuguese Jews', Thrawl Street, with accommodation for 331 girls and infants. The Jews' Infants, Buckle Street, with accommo- dation for 740. In Mile End, the Stepney Jews', Stepney Green, with ac©ommodation for 795 boys, girls and infants. : .10282. That makes a total of 6,180 in the purely Jewish schools, maintained out of Jewish funds en- tirely?'—That is so. 10283. In addition to these there pre 16 other schools ? -—These; are Board schools, which are practically Jewish—that is to say, we observe the Jewish holidays, and they are carried out to suit' the wishes of the Jews, for very few children in these schools are of the Christian persuasion, so that the schools are practically run as Jewish schools. Jewish ladies and gentlemen are on the management. " 10284. And .they represent a, total of what ?—A total of 15,056. The details aire as follow : — In Whitechapel, Old Castle Street, with accom modation for 1,349 boys, girls and infants. Hanbury Street and Yallance Road, with accom- modation for 1,020 boys, girls and infants. Deal Street, with accommodation for 1,200 boys, girls and infants. Chioksand Street, with accommodation1 for 1,489 boys., girls and infants. . Buck's Row, with accommodation lor 782 boys, girls and infants, Commercial Street, with aecommcdation for 912 boys, girls and infants. . • ^ In St. George's, Berner Street, with accommoda- tion for 1,234 boys, girls and infants. . , ^ Betts Street, with accommodation. for 986 boys, girls and infants, Christian Street, with accommodation for 924 boys, girls iand infants. - In Mile End, Baker Street, with accommodation for 949 boys, girls and infants. 6144. Rutland Street, with accommodation for 990 boys, girls and infants. Pliiipot Street, with accommodation for 250 boys, girls and infante. Settles Street, with accommodation for 1 564 boys, girls and infants. Smitfe Street, with accommodation for 773 boys> girls and infants. Garden Street, with accommodation for 634 boys, girls aiid infants. (Total accommodation Board Schools, 15,056.) 10285. Is the total accommodation in these schools, which are Board schools, entirely Jewish?—Yes. 10286. You cannot say how many of this total of 15,056 are actually but practically all Jews?—Practi- cal ly all. 10287. Are these schools practically full ?—Yes. 10288. While we are on this point, have you any means of showing the number of Board schools in your area?—Yes, the School Board map, which shows the Board schools in one colour and the Voluntary schools in another colour. 1028P. Have you any experience, or can you give us any information how the number of schools in this East End area compares with the number of schools in another similar area in another part of London ?—Do you mean as to the crowding together of the schools ? 10290. As to the number of schools ?—I have not gone into that. I would not like to give an answer to that off-hand. I have never tested that. 10291. With reference to these School Boards that are practically entirely Jewish, are there special officers acquainted with the Jewish language, and so on, or teachers?—Many years ago the first school that was opened by the Board, I think, in London, was; the Old Castle Street Board School,, which is in tlio very heart of the Whitechapel district. That school was carried on for some years, if I .may say so, on the Christian system—the nom-Jewish system, anyhow—and it was an entire failure. We could never fill the school. We could not get the children to come along at all; and after some, I should think four, five or six years (I am not quite certain as to the exact number), the Board had a greiat debate as to whether they would adopt a different system, and by a majority it was carried that they would. They then selected a Jewish headmaster; the result being that, the system beihp altered entirely, - the "school filled. There was then a Christian lady over the saris' department, but it was found .that that did not answer; so that practically we had to' have a school en- tirely Jewish : and that is the line that the Board have since pursued. 10292. In that school1 and the others ?—Yes, they always have at least one Jewish teacher in the depart- ment, and sometimes two or three. ' 10293. (Sir Kenelm Digbyf) Is the head teacher a Jew?—Not always a Jew, but the Jews are quite as much .selected as the Christians. 10294. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have you any special officer attached to these Jewish schools to do the house- to-house visiting who is acquainted with the language? —We ha,ve to in the Tower Hamlets. Out of 44 we have two who are specially qualified men. One speaks German .and Yiddish, and the other speaks Yiddish, and gets Russian translations and things of that kind done for us. 10295. Why do you have Russian translations ?—We have a large number of birth certificates in the Russian language which we have to get translated, in order to get the agesi of the children who are born abroad. 10296. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Certificates that the people bring with them ?—-That is so. Uu338 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr S. Mather. 10297. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Leaving the purely Jewish and >semi-Jewish schools, we come to the schools vtfhere Jewish and foreign children are found ?—I have IT Dec. 1902. totalled these. The total of these would be 2,601. 10298. Those refer to St. George's, Mile End, Bow— you include Bow, do you ?—Yes, we get as far as Bow with them. 10299. Whitechapel and Mile End?—Yes. 10300. You have totalled those?—Yes, 2,601. That is the third group. 10301. (Mr. Vallance.) Is that the total of children or the total of Jewish children?—The total of Jewish children. 10302. Can you give me the total of the children ?—■ I have not added that up. I have added up only the Jewish ones. 10303. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) 2,601 is the total of the Jewish children in the third group ?—Yes. The letails are : — St. George's.—At Lower Chapman Street, out of the 1,585 children 949 are Jewish. At "Highway" School, out of 1,646 children 386 are Jewish. At Cable Street Higher Grade School, out of 416 children 197 are Jewish. Mile End.—At Trafalgar Square, out of 1,291 children 437 are Jewish. At Essex Street School, out of 1,263 children 77 are Jewish. At. Port/man Place Higher Grade School, out of 2,038 children 159 are Jewish. Bow.—A-t Malmesbury Road Higher Grade School, out of 1,669 children 396 are Jewish. Then the fourth group is the National Schools, and in those National Schools there is also to be found a number of Jewish children, totalling up to 1,628. 10304. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The National schools are the Church schools?—Yes. 10305. That is in the fourth group?—Yes, the details are: — Whitechapel.—St. SteiDihen's, Spitalsfields, out of 794 children 498 are Jewish. St. Mary's, Spital Square, out of 456 children, 186 are Jewish. St. Paul's National, Wellclose Square, out of 678 -children 280 are Jewish. St. Mark's, Whitechapel, out of 553 children, 135 are Jewish. Christ Church, Brick Lane, out of 376 children 155 are Jewish. Mile End.—The Colet National School, out of 1,218 children 206 are Jewish. Redman's Road Infants, out of 204 children 100 are Jewish. St. Peter's National, Mile End, out of 439 chil- dren 68 are Jewish. I may say, while you are on that, that in one of the Church schools, namely, St. Stephen's, Spitalfields, they have practically followed the line of the Board, and they have made provision for the Jewish children, so as to be taught their own religion at the schools. It is a Church school where practically provision is made for the Jewish children to be taught their own religion. About three-fourths of the school are Jewish children. 10306. So the denominational question is got over there ?—Yes. 10307. (Sir Kenelm, Digby.) Is there any Jewish teacher in the Church schools?—-I am not sure. I think not, but arrangements have been made by the Jewish authorities to provide religious education for them. 10308. (Lord Boths&iild.) They are not all Jewish masters in Division 1 of the Boatd schools?—-No, ther^ is always one, but sometimes more in each Jewish school. There is always a Jewish master or masters, and sometimes one or more in each Jewish school. 10309. (Major Evans Gordon.) What do these figures-of 2,601 and 1,628 show?—Those figures refer to the third and fourth groups. 10310. But I want to know what they show?—They show the gradual spreading over of the Jewish child population into other schools than those distinctly set apart for Jewish children, and the Board's plan has been, when the larger number of the children has become J ewish to add the school to the list of the Jewish schools. Practically they run it it on Jewish lines. 10311. It would show this, would it not, that the majority of the children in Whitechapel are Jewish, while in St. George's the schools are becoming filled with Jewish children?—They are. 10312. And in 'Stepney and Mile End the same pro- cess is going oil ?—That is so. 10313. And this movement is extending as far as Bow now ?—Yes. 10314. That is as far as you are concerned ?—Yes. 10315. Generally speaking, which schools do the Jewish children prefer?—The Board schools. They will never send them to another if they can help it. 10316. As between the National schools and the Board schools ?—Yes, if they have a choice, they would always send the children to a Board School ; except that they prefer their own schools. 10317. Then the Board schools, and then in defauH of ^anything better the National schools ?—We have to drive them into the National schools; we have to compel them to go there. When the other schools are filled up, we must have them in a school; and so we have to drive them in there. 10318. Of course, of the National schools, they would care least about the Roman Catholic schools?— They do- not care about the Roman Catholic schools at all. 10319. But sooner than have no education at' all they would send them there?—They will obey authority. We have on the School Board attendance committees a good number of Jewish ladies and gentle- mem ; and, of course, when they see them there, and they are told by these ladies and gentlemen it is Hobson's choice, they .have to take that school—there ts not any other for them—they do what they are told. 10320. Can you say roughly how many Jewish chil- dren in all attend the schools in your Division ?■— 25,465. That is under the mark. There are others scattered about. 10321. That is in your Division simply?—Yes, out of rather more than 98,000 children we have attending schools 25,000 Jewish children. 10322. Can you tell us anything as to the native- born and foreign-born children among these Jewish children we referred to ?—I have selected two cases that I think are fair samples. One is the Christian Street Board school in St. George's. That was opened m August, 1901 ; and in the boys' department of that school (I have got these particulars because I thought they were more reliable than others I have got as these were got by one- of the Jewish visitors' with the assistance, of course, of the teachers) there were 99 children born in England and 253 born abroad. In the girls' department there were 121 children born in England and 226 born abroad. In the infants' depart- ment there were 145 born in England and 153 born abroad. Then, as a contrast to that, a school opened since 1892—one of our -older schools, Berner Street ; they are close to each other, within a couple of minutes' walk—we have in the boys' department 237 born in England and 115 born abroad ; in the girls' department there were 245 born in England and 112 born abroad. In the infants' department there were 360 born in England and 167 born abroad. I select these for this reason, that the foreign Jews come very largely into this part of the Tower Hamlets. 10323. Speaking generally, what would be the pro- portion of foreign-born children?—Rather more than one-third, you might say, roughly one-third, is the number of foreign children. 10324. Those are born abroad ?—Yes. 10325'. (Mr. Vallance.) Is that a third of the total number ?—That is a third of the total number. 10326. Jewish children?—That we have got at the present time. 10327. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Of the 25,465?—Yes* 10328. About one-third are born abroad ?—Yes. 10329. (Chairman.) Do you treat all the alienMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 339 children as Jews ?—We have very few that are not. There are a few Roman Catholics that come over— aliens ; but comparatively few. 10330. (Major Evans-Gordon.) From Poland?—Yes, and Germany. 10331. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) A few Roman Catholic Jews?—They are Roman Catholics. There is a small school to which they come—the German Roman Catholic School in Union Street, close to Whitechapel Church; but their number is comparatively small as compared with the others. 10332. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The bulk of them are mainly Jewish?.—Yes. 10333. These are the children actually born abroad and brought here as children ?—Yes. 10334. Then there are a great number who are quali- fied as British subjects, that is, children of un- nafcuralised foreign parents who are born in this country ?—I could not answer that. 10335. There would be a great number?—It is quits possible. 10336. And especially in a school like Berner Street, which is longer established ?—Yes. 10337. What are the main characteristics of the Jewish population so far as school attendance is con- cerned ?—The great anxiety of Jewish parents is to get the little children into schools. There is no trouble in filling the new schools with Jewish children, and when they get them into schools they are examples to the Christians in that matter. They send their children well. They give very little trouble indeed until the children have become, as they think, old enough for work, and then they will sometimes-.give a little trouble. 10338. They would like to withdraw them?—They want to get them to work, when they think them old enough to work. 10339. But on the whole they are anxious to learn —I think that is a fair description, that they are anxious to learn. On© of our teachers reported that they are loyal to their teachers and easily managed. I think that is a very fair way of classifying them. 10340. At what age about, do they think they are fit to earn their living?—When they are 13. Of course, the old law used to be 13, and they have not quite got rid' of the idea that a child might go to work at the age of 13. Two years ago the Legislature made it fourteen, but they have still the idea that when they are 13 they are pretty well old enough to work, especially if they have grown big. 10341. But, on the whole, you would say they are keen about having their children educated ?—They are. 10342. And the children themselves are good scholars, regular in attendance, and very sharp?—As a rule. 10343. Profitable material for education?—Yes, I think so. 10344. You say there is a very small proportion of foreigners who try to evade the operation of the Education Acts?—There are some ; bat they are very tough customers; because their artfulness is very diffi- cult to get over. The proportion is not happily a- very large one. 10345. What would you say about the physique of these children?—I do not think, taking them as a whole, they are at all inferior to our English-born children. Of course, there are all sorts among them; but, taking a large number, I think you would find a J ewish child would compare fairly well with the average English "child in London. 10346. Now, has the number of Jewish children been largely increasing of recent years?—Very much so. 10347. How do you define " recent years " \ I have been in the Tower Hamlets now nearly 24 years—next March will make it 24 years—and since that time the population has practically entirely changed, I should say. 10348. You see the displacement of English children by alien children in schools going on?—Yes, constantly. 10349. And that process is going forward now?—Con- stantly. 6144. 10350. Are you familiar with the school in Dempsey Mr, Street?—Yes. S. Matherr 10351. The process is going on there ?—-It has only T)ec 190? been checked there, because the old teachers kept them * out; they would not have them if they could possibly help it [ but, of course, they have had to give in. It is no use; the children are there, and the children must be got into the schools. 10352. Dempsey Street I quote a,s being a school familiar to me, because I have been, a manager of that school?—I know they tried to keep them out. Rut- land Street is practically all Jewish. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where is that? 10353. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In the West of Step- ney Division, and Dempsey Street is a little bit further east, and I mention it as showing the movement going forward eastward. The western schools in the Stepney Parliamentary Division are practically full of Jewish children ?—They are. 10354. That is indicative of the English native population being driven out?—That is so. 10355. And the school is a photograph of what is going on in the houses ?—Yes. We are bound to know it, because we have our schedules every year exactly of the population. We every year take a child census, and in that child's census we have the names of th» parents and their occupations. 10356. Do you find any considerable amount of change of name—putting an English name on to a foreign person ?—That is one of the difficulties of having to deal with Jews, that they go by two or three names; they will take any name that they think will do. They will frequently tell you : "I am called something, else now, because the people do not understand my true name." They frequently do that, and the children in the schools. We have had sometimes members of a family—perhaps there would be four of them—and they will each of them have a different name. 10357. You say this process is going on, and is still increasing ?—It is. 10358. And if it goes on increasing >at the same rate, what, in your opinion, would be the result ?—We should have Palestine in the East End ; it would be all Jews. 10359. On the whole, how do the Jewish children compare with the Christian or native children ?—I think they are practically quite equal to our average London children, and, so far as brain power goes, and smart- ness, especially in commercial things, the average Jewish child will more than hold his own with the average Christian child. 10360. He is practically equal in physique and superior in intelligence and industry?—He will not, if he can help it, be, if I may say so, a hewer of wood or a drawer of water. He will not be at the bottom if he can help it, and he generally will help it. He has sufficient power in him not to go down. 10361. A strong ambition to rise in the social scale? —Yes. 10361*. What has your experience been as to those who have recently come from 'abroad?—There is one very great drawback we find with the parents who' come from abroad, and also the children, and that is that they do not stick to the truth whenever it serves their purpose ; and they have not the slightest shame in being found out in a lie. If you find that they have said something which is palpably untrue and show them that, they will tell you something else immediately, with the greatest of pleasure. They have a perfect want of moral sense in that respect, and we find that also among the children when they have recently come over. 10362. In the process of your work, do you come across the displacement of the parents from the houses going on?—Yes, constantly. 10363. Is that accompanied, as far as you know, with bitter feeling, or is it regarded as a hardship ?—There is no doubt whatever that there is a very strong feeling. indeed in the East End on this question among the Christians and English population. 10364. Have you ever thought of anything in the nature of a remedy?—I was asked by one of our managers, Mr. John Harris (I think he is an Alderman of Whitechapel), and before that it had1 not come in my way to think anything about this; but he asked me if u u 234U ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I i Mk li^Dec; 1902; I ^vvBuld: give him my opinion, and I said, "'I would rather not express any opinion until I have had time to think the matter over "; but I have come to this con- clusion; I think that one of two things must be done : either we must, by private agency or municipal agency, do as the Jewish people have done in White chap el—we must replace: one-storey houses with large model dwell- ings. 10365. For our own people?—If we are going to pro- vide for-people, dwelling in the East End, we must have a different kind of house. If you come' down to the East End, you will find row after row of houses with one storey—ground floor and one storey above. 10366. (Chairman.) It is really two storeys ?—One storey high—ground floor and top storey. If we are going to have people all crowded together, we shall have to have these taken away and bigger places put in their stead. That is what is going on in what we call Sub-division G, on the north of vV'hitechapei Church, we have got large buildings instead of the one-storeyed houses that stood there before, and we get a much larger number of people on that little bit of ground than will be found in any other part of London. 10367. (Major Evans Gordon.) That is Spitalfields ?— Yes. That is the most crowded area of, the whole of London. 10368. (Chairman.) Are they taking houses down there for the purpose of building high-storied houses ? -rr-Yes in that part. 10369. For that express purpose?'—Yes, and it is going on gradually in other places, too. 10370. Is it done for the purpose of mitigating th^ Overcrowding, or is it simply that when the houses come down they do, of course, build up others ?'—It is done, I Should say, because it is a very profitable speculation. It is also being done to a very large .extent by persons interested in the Jewish population, and by people of the Jewish persuasion. They sell the land to their own people, and they build these large places. 10371. {Major Evans Gordon.) Do you say the raiuni- •cipality ishould do something to meet the needs of our people in the same way?—That is one solution of the difficulty. 10372. That would mean putting up on the buildings, "" No aliens need apply." Would not that be rather ob- jectionable ?—Yes. 10373. The difficulty has been that where you put up these buildings they are instantly filled with the alien population, unless there should be soon© exclusion?-— They are, filled, of course, by them for this simple Teason, that they pay 'better money as a rule. They are willing to pay more. That is the reason why. They make it fit in with their circumstances to pay more. 10374. Anyhow, the demand for house accommoda- tion is tremendous down in that part?—It is. 10375. (Lord Rothschild.) Are you not aware that in those large buildings more than one-third of the tenants are Christians and Englishmen—in all those buildings you are alluding to as being put up by the Jewish popu- lation?—No, I cannot say I am aware of that. 10376. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In any case, whether it be for aliens or for Christians, your suggestion would "be to turn the two-storied houses into bigger buildings, and put more people on the ground ?—That is one thing I wtould suggest; but I would like to suggest also to the Commission that I see no necessity for this stream of immigration to be all turned on, as it were, to London. I hold very strongly that it is a very undesirable thing if or us in England to have all these people put into the City when there is plenty of room in the country itself. If a good few of these persons were put in some other part of the country—really the country—and not put into the towns, I think the difficulty would he got over to a very large extent. 10377. You think the English native population . should have the first choice of the City where they have to be when they are working, and the new comers should be planted out in the country?—I think it is unjust that the English should be dispossessed of that which they already have for the sake of persons coming from some other part. 10378. (Mr. Vallance.) With reference to the pro- vision of school accommodation from time to time, from year to year almost, I suppose there is an increase of Accommodation required ?—In certain districts, yes. 10379. Have you any facts or figures before you to show the relative proportion of school accommodation in an equal; number of neighbourhoods with the ratio of population—children receiving school attendance, as compared with the population?1—The Board's plan is this* We schedule every year ; that is to say, we take a child census every year ; and that is the basis <>f the provision of schools. Where a district like, for in- stance, Stepney'Green district, which has very largely increased within the last two or three years, owing to the fact that large model dwellings have been put up all round Stepney Green and in it, we. have asked the Board of Education for leave to put up another school to meet this need, which did not exist two or three years ago, but which hast been created by the thickening of the population. 10380. Then you take an annual census of the children?—Every year we do- 10381. Are you satisfied you get reliable figures ?— When we did compare them with the census figures some 20 years ago, we found a difference of between 4,000 and 5,000 between our figures and those reported by the Registrar-General. 10382. Then you have the materials for arriving at a conclusion as to the relative congestion of population in certain districts ?—Yes, we have. 10383. And the more congested the population—tba greater the amount of overcrowding—the greater the amount of your 'school accommodation ?—Exactly. 10384. You are driven to provide school accommoda- tion, and in providing it you have to demolish dwellings for the purpose of providing it; is not that so %—If we do there is the Act of Parliament that makes us liable if we take more than a certain number of houses. 10385. I have heard of such a thing as evading that ? —We are not allowed to do that. The Home Secretary is too sharp on us to allow us to do it. 10386. But if overcrowding is permitted in a given area, then a large proportion of that overcrowded popu- lation must be children ?—Yes, certainly. 10387. They in turn require a provision for their education?—-Quite so.. 10388. In providing for their education there is an increased amount of overcrowding occasioned by that provision?—Yes, that would be so. 10389. Therefore, from your point of view, I take it it is important that in some way or other this over- crowding and this congestion of population in certain areas should be relieved ?—Yes, certainly. 10390. With regard to your suggestion of a remedy, that the municipal authorities should provide accom- modation in the erection of blocks of dwellings to re- place the one-storey dwellings, have you had experience of any of those provisions ?—-Of the houses! themselves, do you 'mean? 10391. Yes?—Not exactly. 10392. From your experience, would you anticipate that the class of children who would be displaced, and the class of occupiers who would be displaced, would be provided for in the block dwellings, or would the congestion be accentuated by the introduction of another class into the district for the block dwellings ?—Yes, it would almost entirely be the latter. It would mean that the better class would take the block dwellings, and the poorer class who lived there before would crowd in somewhere else. 10393. Then, the provision of block dwellings in substitution for small dwellings would not, after all, be the real remedy ?—Not for the very poorest class. It would not meet their need. 10394. And the overcrowding would be still a ques- tion to be dealt with ?—I aim afraid it would. 10395. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to the census of children of which you spoke just now, have you taken a census which could compare with the Census of 1901 ?—The Board tried to get the Registrar- General to allow t'hem to get the figures, but there was difficulty in allowing it to be done, so that we were nor, able to institute a comparison. 10396. (Mr. Norman.) With regard to that point, you say there was, four or five years ago, an error of between 4,000 and 5,000 in the census returns ?—I think it was 20 years ago. 10397. Are you quite sure that those figures would be perfectly accurate?' Were they taken in such a way that there could be no doubtor little doubt aboutMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. .34,1 them ?—I think our School Board visitors are the best / enumerators to be found in London, for this reason, that they are over the ground all the year round. They are not like casual persons, but they practically live in cer- tain districts, and they get to know everybody in those does ; so* that the information that we get is more reli- . able than the information, I think, that you can get from any other source. I may say about the census this last time, the Registrar-General acknowledged that, for I think nearly all my staff were enumerators for the census. He asked that he might have leave "to us3 their services. 10398. Do you remember out of how many children was this error of 4,000 or 5,000 committed ; what was the total number ?—I could not recollect that on the rspur of the moment. 10399. But approximately, in round numbers ?—Our : numbers, ever since I have been in the Tower Ham- lets, have not varied very much ; it would be under 120^000. Our numbers are at present about 113,000. . It used to be a little more in years gone by, because the East End has slightly thinned down in population. 10400. That would be an error of about 4 per cent. 1 ---It was about 4 per cent. 10401. An error in the census figures of about 4 per • cent. ?—As far as it compared with the figures we had. But there is this to be said: the census figures do not appear until the next year after they have been taken, and, I think, we compared with the figures after- wards ; so that there might be an element of error in • that. There might be a certain increase since the census was taken. 10402. How was it that the Registrar-General '•declined to allow you access to the corresponding figures of the last census?—I cannot explain that. The Board made an official request, because the Board like to ■check their figures by the census figures, but there was • some difficulty ; but that, of course, applies to our head office business. 10403. In fact, the last time the Registrar-General appears to have, if one may say so, rather declined your 'challenge to produce the figures?—1 cannot say the :reason why. 10404. You wanted his figures to compare with your • own in order to. see whether there was a similar error to the one you have mentioned to the Commission? —It was an interesting point to the Board, because on our figures we now provide schools, and this time the Registrar-General's figures for the whole of London showed a larger number of children, I think - * very nearly 20,000 more children, than the School .Board visitors found; so our Board were naturally i anxious- to know how that was, and where, if we had made a mistake, our mistake was. 10405. (Mr. Vallance.) Did your figures relate to the twhole of the children other than the children of school age ?—Only children] up to 14, and up to 16 if they are physically or mentally defective or blind or deaf. 10406. Tlhen there are no comparable figures at the ^census office?—They used to have them up to 13 or 14, -years gone by. We started off with them. When we first started off at our work it was on the basis of the Registrar-General's work that we acted. 10407. Have, you reason to suppose that the Registrar- • General had the figures that you were asking for?_I believe the Board thought he had. I cannot say that I personally know anything about that. 10408. (Mr. Norman.) I suppose the Board were :rather surprised that their request was declined?—I ^cannot say; that is not within my province. I am only speaking from general knowledge. 10409. You made the suggestion, as one remedy, that . larger .buildings should be erected in the place of two- storey ones. At whose expense would you suggest that those buildings should be erected ?—I am not a believer in doing it at municipal expense. I think it ought to be done by private persons. 10410. Enterprise or charity?—Enterprise, not '-charity. I do not'believe in charity of that kind. 10411. Do you think it can be made to pay as a reasonable commercial enterprise ?—-Yes, I think it '-could. 10412. Supposing these buildings were erected, and they could be made to pay upon a commercial basis, fwould not that be rather-a palliative than a remedy? —They would provide what seems to me a much re- Mr. quired want for a great number of the working classes, S. Mather. namely, proximity to the City and to the waterside. -- Large numbers of the poor people must be reasonably H DeTT. 1902. close to their work. That seems to me a great diffi- culty in getting them further out. They have to be at their work at such time that they must be somewhere near the hand ; and if we could have larger buildings, they would provide a larger number with facilities for being comparatively close to their work. 10413. You have jusit said in the case of these build- ings the aliens would be able to pay better rents than the dispossessed British ?—Yes, they are able to pay better. 10414. The aliens do not work at the riverside ?— No, but'they work in the City. 10415. I do not see how your buildings would pro- vide accommodation for the dispossessed British if they were not able to pay the rents, and those who could pay the rents did not work there ?—I take it they would all be fused together, whether British or foreigners. 1U416. It seems to me there was a little contradic- tion in that, because if the British could not pay the rents, then these buixdin^gs would be filled with aliens ? —Yes. 10417. That is what I was referring to when I asked you wihether it would not be more of a palliative than a remedy. If these buildings were to be put up to make room for these incoming foreigners who are coming in in such large numbers, they would them- selves soon be filled. What would be your remedy then ? You could not make them bigger, and the area is restricted. What would be your next remedy?—. My remedy is that we should not allow large numbers of people from abroad to be all put down in one plaice That is the main thing I would urge. 10418. That is a very interesting point, and I wil. come to it later. To finish with this question of these municipal buildings, they would in time be filled if the present state of things goes on ?—There would be no trouble in filling them. 10419. When they were filled, the problem would be precisely the same in kind, although rather greater in degree than it was before they were erected?—I should hope the pressure would not be so great. 10420. Have you any reason to think the pressure would not be so great?—I should think the pressure would not be so great if we take the trouble to pre- vent the further influx. You must stop the stream by some means or other. 104-21. You must, stop the stream—that is your opinion P—Yes. 10422. With regard to your other suggestions, that it would be very advantageous to London if this stream could be diverted toi the country, would the people who come work at country work ?—Yes. 10423. Do you mean agricultural country work ?—Yes. 10424. And not in provincial towns ?—No. 10425. Are the people fitted by training or by physiqu 3 or by taste to do agricultural work ?—I could nob say. I have not sufficient knowledge to answer the question.' 10426. Would it not be difficult to exert any means of compulsion on these people, to meet them when they land and say, " You may come into the town," " You must, go into the country ?" Would that be possible ?— I think it would be possible. What I have found with these greeners, as we call them in the East End, when they cotme, is that they generally get put under some- body and learn some kind of trade. They cannot speak English, and they generally go to one of their com- patriots, who takes them in hand, and who1, as some people say, sweats them for a, time; but, as a matter of fact, I suppose he gives them the wages, that they can really earn—what they arei worth. Then after they have had a certain amount of this experience they can get along by themselves. They have picked up a certain amount of English, especially the children do very quickly, and they help their parents in that way and then they get along alone. I think that that class of people, if they were put into the country, and the same kind of training for agriculture was adopted as is adopted for commercial life, the same result would prac- tically follow. 10427. You raise my point again by using the same expression, " If they were put into the country." Who is to put them into the country?—I think our Govern-342 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: r Mr, ment ought to have some voice in determining where S. Mather. persons who come into this country shall go, and they I —— should not be allowed to be put down in one particular 11 Dec. 1902. place, to the inconvenience of others. 10428. You do not think it would be possible to induce these people to go into the country without some measure of official compulsion?—Among the Jewish community a great deal can be done if the Jewish leaders choose to think it is a good thing to do. That is my view. I have found in the East End the Jewish Board of Guardians is practically all powerful in this matter. If the leaders of the Jewish community laid down a certain course of action, that course of action can be followed, and will be followed practically by the whole of the Jews ; so that, of course, if their co-operation could be secured there would be no need for Governmental action. It could be done without Governmental action at all. 10429. Of course, you are aware that English labour \s leaving the country, and that is one of our great national troubles at this moment. The labourers come into the towns ?-—I feel that very strongly. 10430. Then the effect of this, even supposing that these things that you aire suggesting could be carried out, would be to dispossess British labour in the country, would it not, by sending these people there -—to replace British labo-ur by alien labour in the country ?—I do not think that would be the result of it. 10431. If British labour is leaving the country, and it was possible .to divert the stream of alien labour into the country, that would inevitably be the result, would it not ?—I think it would be quite as possible to have a Jewish farm colony as it is to have a Salvation Army farm colony, and to work the thing without injuring the country side, but benefiting the country side. 10432. My point is that I cannot quite see how it would be a remedy for the dispossessing, of British labour in the towns- to proceed further to dispossess it in the country ?•—Because there is room for them in the country, and we have1 not room for them in the town. 10433. Up to a time there is. room for them in the town P—Apparently so. 10434. Your point is that the only remedy would be to fill up one place after another by this stream of alien emigration?—Yes. I do not see how you can prevent 'them coming, but I think you ought to divert them to a place where they are likely to be of use and not a hindrance to us. 10435. Of course, in time all these places would be filled, and then your problem would remain as it was at the beginning ?—That would be rather a long time to come, I think. 10436. Do the Jewish Board of Guardians try to dis- seminate the people now?—They do a great, deal in getting the people who are not likely to stay here to America and to other places, and also in getting many to go back to their own country. When they find they are practically helplesis here, they send them back again to where they come from. 10437. Do they do anything in the way of disseminating; them over this country, to your knowledge ?—As far as- I know, they do not. 10438. May I take it your view is that, at any rate, so« far as London is concerned, it is full enough, if not too^ full ?—I think it is. 10439. (Chairman.) You gave us, I think, the propor- tion in two schools of the foreign children and the English children. Would these: two schools be fairly representa- tive! of all the others?—I think they would. I think you would find the same figures would apply practically to them all. The school that is more recently opened has more of the foreign children than the school that has been longer established. 10440. So far as we can argue from your figures, we- take those, according to your opinion, as really repre- sentative of the whole of that district?—Yes. 10441. A question or two about these houses. The builders now in this district that you speak of where- house property has become very valuable, and they are erecting new houses, put three or four storey houses, instead of two ?—They have been doing that to a very large extent in the last 10 years. 10442. It must be more profitable to them than the- two-storey houses ?—I should think so. I should think it was a paying thing. 10443. It only requires rather better foundations and * more material to erect more storeys?—Yes. 10444. You have been asked a great, deal about the- difficulty of sending people into certain localities. Have- you thought at all whether it would be feasible to declare- a certain district a. congested district, and prevent aliens, going into that district, and letting them drift where they may, and to say they must; not go into, a congested' district like Stepney ?—To show the prevalent idea that they have got, I may say I saw a foreign woman last night, who has been in the country a year or so, and I said to her : " Why did you come to London ?,} " Oih,'J' she s'aid, " iwe he'ard that London was the place to go - to." They all think London is the place' where they ~ can make some money; they think there is plenty of: money to be got in London. 10445. That is not an answer to my question at all. You have suggested these people should be directed to ejo; into country places or somewhere where the State might wish. It is very difficult to tell anybody that they should not move about in this country, but they must go to a particular spot and live there ; it would be a sort of quasi control over them, which would amount almost to imprisonment; but is it not a different question for consideration whether, while you do not tell " them where they may go, you may tell them, where they may not go, and say, " Here is a congested districtb which- is full of foreigners, and you are not allowed in that district" ?—I think that would be a suitable thing to do. 10446. They would then gravitate to where there is: not this overcrowding, and not this excess of foreigners, and that would leave them to find their own place?—I think that would be a remedy, undoubtedly. $lr Sic Alfred Newton, A. Newton. - 10447. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are Alderman of the City of London, and were Lord Mayor in 1899 ' - Yes. 10448. During the last 13 years you have been fre- quently on the Bench ?—Frequently. 10449. You are also a Commissioner of the Central Criminal Court?—Yes. 10450. Has your attention been directed to the number of foreigners appearing before the «ourt?—Most forcibly, especially within the last five or six years. 10451. These were persons charged at the Guildhall and Mansion House ?—Yes. 10452. Where are these persons so charged drawn from chiefly?—My impression is that over 15 to 20 per cent, of them were foreigners ; 15 to 20 per cent, of the cases that came before me were certainly foreigners. 10453. Have you any statistics of that?—^1 have no actual statistics, except that the other day, when, at the Mansion House, I asked the Chief Clerk to look through the cases which , had come before me, and he ■ referred me to the 26th September, when I sat at the Mansion House, and out of 24 oases five were foreigners illed; and Examined. On the 3rd October I had before me at the Mansion - House eight cases, and two of them were foreigners. 10454. These may be regarded as typical instances ?— I think so. I think they may fairly be regarded as- typical, instances. 10455. What nationalities do they belong to chiefly ?— I think principally Germans. At the Summons Court they are principally Italians. , 10456. And what sort of offences are they charged, with generally ?—Generally larceny and misdemeanours. 10457. Have you noticed any tendency of these foreign peopip to be engaged in what you may call expert crime ? ' —Yes, that is very marked indeed. If there is any great forgery case, we generally find that the major portion of the prisoners are foreigners. The case which has just now been completed at the Mansion House is a - very expert case of bank note forgery, and the whole- of the ten prisoners are foreigners. 10458. Have you had occasion to remark from the Bench on the prevalence of foreigners' before your court 'i ■* It is so forcibly brought to< my notice and my experi- ence so completely emphasises the fact, that on a. recent. occasion I remarked that this country appeared to be-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 343 .made the dumping ground for foreigners of bad < character. The ratio of foreigners who appear is so dis- .proportionate. I assume it is the same at every metro- polian police court, though I have no knowledge of them; hut nobody can sit at the Old Bailey day after • day without remarking on the extraordinary number of -foreign prisoners charged with all the offences that ..naturally come before the Central Criminal Court. 10459. Was your attention called to a question asked in the House of Commons quite recently of the Home Secretary as to the number of foreigners charged in the police courts, exclusive of the City?—-No. 10460. The Home Secretary answered there were 4,943 iorei'gners, exclusive of the City, in one year, 1902?—I am not surprised at that. 10461. That would corroborate what you say and 'feel upon it?—Yes. 10462. Are you of opinion that any measures are pos- sible, or should be taken, with regard to. excluding these people, or a police measure to deport foreigners of bad character ?—I am very strongly of that opinion. Only "the other day I had before me a foreigner charged with larceny ; the offence was, in my judgment, not sufficient to send him for trial, but being thoroughly of opinion that he was. a mauvais sujet, I suggested whether lie ^should not return to his own country. He distinctly refused. This had to be done through an interpreter, 'because he was unable to speak English. 10463. Do you remember what his nationality was ?— I think he was a German, and I pointed out to him that "there seemed to be no field in this country for him to -obtain his living, in an honest manner, and expostulated "that he should remain here. He said, " Well, he should TIike to go to America." I said, " Why don't you go to -America?" He said, "I cannot go to America unless I have 100 dollars." So there was a man who could come to this country apparently without let or hindrance, but if he wanted io go to America the Americans were cute enough and keen enough to say "" No, you are not the class of man we want, and we won't allow you to come into this country unless you have the "wherewithal to subsist for a time at least. * That is a •case in point. 10464. In that case you think you should have power to repatriate, and send him back to their country ?— Nio, I would not let him come. I would go much 'further than that. 10465. But in a case of that kind, when you have got hold of a foreigner who is misbehaving himself in this country, I understand in similar circumstances all 'foreign countries have those police powers of repatria- tion ?—I believe that is so. 10466. Are you acquainted with the law in Germany, "for instance ?—-No, I am not sufficiently acquainted with it to know what is done there. 10467. But in a foreign country, say Germany or France, an Englishman misbehaving himself in a case -of that kind not quite strong enough to send to gaol, in ;your opinion, he would be unquestionably deported back "to his country ?—I imagine so, I do not know that that ; is the Jaw. 10468. You think that would be a desirable thing to have in this country?—Most desirable. 10469. A police law of that kind ?—Most desirable. 1Q470. What have you to suggest with regard to ex- Delusion?—Why should any person be allowed to come into this country unless in the first case he can prove to ' our Consuls or our representatives abroad that he is a person of respectable character, and that he possesses at least some means, so that when he arrives here he is "not absolutely penniless ? There to- my mind seems no -extraordinary difficulty about that. 10471. Or if he is dependent upon charity or de- pendent upon crime ?—Precisely. He should first sub- stantiate his position as a respectable man before he is allowed to come into this country. 10472. But if he did come in, and was found to be -otherwise than respectable, you would consider we • should have a right, at all events, on proper grounds shown, to send him back again ?—Certainly, I think so. 10473. And not to spend money in keeping foreign r people in gaol ?—Undoubtedly. 10474. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) About this deportation "that you propose, I understand you to say you would •aigive the police in this country power to do it by their own motion ?—I think there should necessarily be soma hearing. 10475. Then you would not give the police power. You would not do it by executive act?'—No, I think not. I think the police should necessarily bring .such a case before the authorities and require their authority. 10476. It makes a great difference whether it is to be brought before a judicial authority, or whether it is an executive act. Would you give the Home Secretary power to do it?—I think the authority should be given to a magistrate1. 10477. That is not quite what I understood just aow. You would have a regular hearing and a judicial sen- tence of deportation ?—I think so. I think the police should produce the case, and the magistrate should decide whether it was a case that should be acted upon. 10478. You had a case before you the other day, when you said the evidence was not strong enough to commit ? —No, I did not consider it was. 10479. Would you in that case think it would be strong enough for a sentence of deportation ?—Certainly. I think so. I think that would be a case in point. 10480. You would dejDort not merely where there was no actual proof of a criminal offence, but merely on the ground of general character ?—Supposing the circum- stances were so extremely serious; but the case I re- ferred to was a case in which a jury in my judgment would not have convicted, and, therefore, I came to the same conclusion as I thought the jury would come to. 10481. (Chairman.) Would you include poverty7— Undoubtedly. 10482. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Would you give an appeal from the magistrate to the High Court?—No, I think not. 10483. How would you safeguard the matter in the case of political offences, or in the case of a person charged with political crima in another country? You fire aware that that is extremely jealously guarded now by extradition treaties and otherwise ?—That is un- doubtedly one of the difficulties. 1G484. A ^ery considerable difficulty?—No doubt. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is a very interesting point. Would a man be hauled before a magistrate for a political offence in another country ? Surely a magistrate would have discretion not to repatriate on that ground ? (Chairman.) There could be no application for extra- dition for a political offence. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The political offence, would not come within the magistrate's view. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I was asking Sir Alfred whether there should be any appeal. He is proposing to give the magistrate power without appeal to deport, and I was asking what would be the safeguard, and whether that power might not be exercised in the case of a person charged with a political offence, and whose bad character really rested on political grounds. (Mr. Norman.) Would not the act of any magistrate necessarily come more or less before the Home Secre- taiy ? (Sir Kenelm Digby.) No. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How is it safeguarded in foreign countries ; for instance, in the German Act ? 10485. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I have got this from you, and I understand you appreciate the point, that if there was to be any power of deportation at all it ought to be a power exercised by judicial procedure ?—Un- doubtedly, and in a very simple manner. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I meant that the'penalty .was to be inflicted for cause shown. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Yes, but as the matter was left before, it would look as if the witness thought the police could do it. 10486. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That might be a dis- tinction between this country and a foreign country. For instance, in France ithe police have got power to say, without any cause shown, " Kindly go " ?—Yes. 10487. (Mr. Norman.) Am I correct in gathering from what you said at the beginning of your evidence that you are of opinion that this is a question of rapidly and greatly increasing gravity?—Daily. 10488. It has greatly increased in gravity during comparatively recent times?—Yes. Sir A. Newton. 11 Dec. 1902.344 HOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: • Sir 10489. (Chairman.) You have spoken of some of the A. Newton. offenders that come before you being Italians and Ger- --- mans and French. Do you include all of them?— 11 Dec. 1902. Yes. 10490. Would you apply these remedies you have spoken of,, of obtaining Consul's certificates to all foreigners coming into this country ?—Of course, that is where the difficulty arises. 10491. Take, for instance, Dover and Calais ?—Of course, an enormous difficulty at once present itself there ; but take the importations from ordinary ports other than Dover and Calais, because we do not get this poorer class of immigrants through Dover and Calais. They come from Bremen and Hamburg. 10492. Would not it meet your view to prescribe cer- tain ports to which your regulations must comply in order to meet the Poles and the Russians ?—I think that would have the desired effect. 10493. You could not apply it to the French and ordinary Italians ?—No, the Italians who come over here to whom I refer as coming before the magistrates in the summons court are really charged more with street obstruction. An enormous number of Italians are employed in the City as coster-mongers, and they either hold the police at variance or they consider they can. carry on their dealings better if they select a pitch and stick to it in spite of the police, with the result that we get a very large number of these before the magistrates for street obstructions. I refer to them more particularly as Italians. 10494. How are you going to deal with them? If you are going to deal with them at the port of entrance^, how are you going to deal with them ?—Why should:' not those men produce certificates or produce some- evidence that they are persons of respectability, and that they come to this country to direct employment, or that they have some means of livelihood in view when they arrive here ? 10495. But we i*mst deal with this point practically. They have not been convicted of obstruction by coster- mongering at the time when they arrive. At the time they arrive, say at the port of Dover, how are you going to deal with them at the port of Dover, where they might arrive by the ordinary packet boat ?—I do not think this class, of immigrants would arrive at Dover. 10496. I understand the position that arises at the northern ports, but I feel great difficulty wiien you extend it to the Russians and the Poles and the Ger- mans. I see a great difficulty?—I also regard it as a difficult matter. 10497. It is the arrivals you wish to deal with ; but I do not quite see how we are to deal with the southern: ports?—It is extremely difficult. 10498. (Major Evans- Gordon.) My point was that in the case of those who land there are a certain number we should lever be able to keep out; but, then, I think we ought to have some right when a man is a notoriously bad character, or for good cause shown, to say : " Will you kindly go back ; we do not want you " ? ' —-Yes. 10499. (Chairman.) That is your evidence?—Yes. Mr. IV. C. , Matthews. Mr. William Charles Mathews, called ; and Examined. 10500. (Mr. Norman.) You are the School Board visitor for T and IT Blocks in the Hackney division?— Yes 10501. Those are situated in Bethnal Green on the borders of the municipal borough of Stepney?—Yes. 10502. How many streets are there in the two blocks ? —About 50 or 51. 10503. How long have you been a visitor in this division ?—Sixteen years. 10504. Would you tell us in a word or itwo what your duties are?—To ensure the attendance of children at school, and schedule the district and report proceed- ings 'to the superintendent for the police court if they do not attend properly. 10505. That involves on your part a complete house to house visitation?—Yes. 10506. When did you begin to notice the immigra- tion of aliens into your sub-division?—Ten or eleven years ago. 10507. Has that immigration increased of late?—It has increased very much. 10508. How many years back has it noticeably in- creased ?—It has noticeably increased this last four or five years. (Mr. Norman.) I miay, perhaps, poiin/t out that-we are dealing now with Hackney, which is quite outside the district we have hitherto been dealing with with regard to aliens. (Chairman.) You are taking the overflow districts now? (Major Evans-ec 1902 driven out in consequence of this feeling ?—X have ' * known of several who haid a lively time of it, and in one instance, at 33, Hereford Street, they had all their windows broken and all the framework broken, and they had to go. It was a new family who had come into the street, and the people almost rose against them. 10541. Have you any fear that that feeling is likely to grow if the present state of things continues?—I have often felt it would ; the feeling is very, very bitter. . 10542. {Lord Rothschild.) Are you aware of the (Num- bers the Census gives of the number in Hackney in the 1891 Census?—No. 10543. (Major Evans-Gordon.) This is really in Bethnal Green, although it borders on Hackney ?•—It is the Hackney Division of Bethnal Green. 10544. (Lord 'Rothschild.) When you talk of houses belonging to aliens, I suppose you would characterise all Jews as aliens, although they may be born in England?—Oh, no. I mean the foreign" Jews. 10545. (Chairman.) You are not speaking of the whole of Bethnal Green?—The two blocks of the Hackney Division of Bethnal Green. 10546. Can you give us the population of that portion you are speaking of ?—No, I can give you the number of children in this district who are in my charge. (Major Evans-Gordon.) This is the Hackney Division of the School Board, another area altogether, which in- cludes Bethnal Green, Shoreditch, part of Hackney, and Clapton. This gentleman is dealing with the sub-division of that School Board area. (Chairman.) Really and truly, it is impossible to compare either with Bethnal Green generally, or Hackney generally. {Major Evans-Gordon.) It is absolutely impossible. The only point is those sub-divisions of T arid U lie deals with, and we only seek to show the flow is going on there. (Chairman.) Then you cannot make the comparison. T W E N T Y - S I XT H DAY. Monday, 15th December 1902. present The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. JVfajor W. ,E. Evans Gordon, m>b. WILLIAM VALLANCE,. Esq. Mr. Frederick Mead, called ; an# Examined. 10547. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You are one of the : magistrates of the Thames Police Court ?—Yes. 10548. I tthink your locality is Arbour Square, in the -middle of what we, may call the congested district ?— • "Yes.' ... 10549. How long have you been there ?—Siiice March, 1890. ; 10550. Your colleague is Mr. Dickinson ?—Yes. 10551. I should like you to follow your own course as : regards the evidence you Wish to give, because I have » only before me the heads of it ?—I do not know whether iyou would prefer to' go' through fir^t the proposals (for TlegislMidH whichCI hav& made.: . \ ^ 10^62!:;^ will come to those later. Your first head- ing ik with regard to the law on the. .subject of over- ^<;rqw4ih:^/ t should like ,to know what you have to say " afe^'&aX ?—£ have had the advantage of reading the • evidence of f Dr. Shirley Murphy, Dp. Thomas, and Dr. ^WiUiams^ahd it^ appeals, to tiie H$ha£tthe ^quegfeon^Sf .^^croSlv^dlri^; h|s a ' i^aten on ?'' 'Soibfe1 fo^be>'^mind '6144 law, and it is represented as being inadequate, but Mr F Mead my opinion is that it is an extremely good code, and ' _ fully adapted for the ptirpose.f Of course, if one were 15 Dec. 1902. legislating afresh there might be minor amendments ----- to be made. 10553., You are speaking now of the Public Health Act) 1891 ?—Yes. ,r / 10554; That is really the governing Act ?~--Yes, - it is all comprehended in that. The procedure is exceed- ingly simple. If the sanitary inspector discovers a nuisance (and overcrowding is defined as a nuisance) it is his duty first of all to give an intimation; that is to say, to draw the att&nti6n of the person who is respon- sible for the nuisance to the nuisance at the first oppor- tunity. Then it is his: duty to report to the sanitary '.authority, and the sanitary authority, if they afe satisfied that a nuisance exists or may exist, authorises him to»take ^proceedings. Hie thereupon gives noticte to abate- Jthe r nuifeance M the? person who is ^espoisalM. The person responsible is primarily the p£fs6n by whblse default,the nuisance-exist^ -if he tjxen others i:are iconsfcifactavfcly i&spbii-346 HOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mv.i F. Mead. , sible and liable ; that is to say, .the occupier or the owner> except where the nuisance arises from some V '_ structural cause; then the owner is responsible under any circumstances^ If the nuisance is not abated, or — even if rti is abated, if it has arisen through the act, default, or sufferance of anyone, then it is the duty of the officer to take out a summons before a magistrate. The magistrate then has power to make an order of abatement and an order of prohibition, that is, where the nuisance has been abated and is likely tb'recur ; and a closing order where he thinks proper; but in ' addition to that, he has the power with either of those ^©medi^s,7 to inflict a penalty. The misapprehension ,that s.eems to me to have prevailed with regard to th.e law is thi^ : it has been looked upon by the authorities, according to the evidence which I have read, principally as a,remedial measure and not as a punitive one. : ^ 10555. (Chairman.) By the sanitary authorities ?— By the samtary authorities. They seem to have gone for cure rather than prevention. They seem to have '. 'dVscrib'ecl. it'*(I have taken different expressions• used by memlfi^rs of the Commission and the witnesses) as it is like a ferret in the burrow," " The process is endless," " It is lifee putting water in at one end of a cask and it • coming oftt at the other." That seems to me perfectly Reasonable. If the criminal law is such that a person can commit an offence with impunity, and then is merely told not to do it again, everyone naturally to whose interest it is to commit crime will go on as long as he pleases, because he has nothing to lose. There is this .effect , if he is summoned and an abatement order only is jnade ;i Jbut it seems to. .me absolutely necessary, if the Jaw is $o be enforced, that it should be looked upon as .punitiye where; persons are in fault, and penalties should be inflicted. ■ 1Q556. , >Y'hat are the penalties under the Act of 1891 ? —In i th,©., first instance, if the notice is. not complied with, or even if the notice is complied .with, and the original mischief is caused by the act, default, or suffer- ance ,of the offender, the defendant, and there is a penalty of £10 with costs. lti557. What is the offence for which a £10 penalty is given?—It is Section 4, Sub-section 4: "Where a notice lias been served on a person under this section, and either (a) the nuisance arose from the wilful act or default of the said person, or (b) such person, makes default in complying with any of the requisitions of the notice within the time specified, he shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £10." Then I ^ill read t}ie de- finition of overcrowding in the second section?• " For the purposes of this Act"; then (a), (b), (c), (d), and then .(e) says: " Any house or part of a house so over- crowded as to be injurious or dangerous to the health of the inmates, whether or not meinbers of the same family." 10558. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is a nuisance?--^ Yes, that is a nuisance ; and then this machinery is set in motion, and it culminates in a penalty, supposing, it has originated in the act, default, or sufferance of any person, or if the notice of abatement is ignored, that is a penalty of £10. For the purposes of the overcrowd- ing that seems to me: an ample penalty, considering the ! class of persons who are guilty of overcrowding. t 10559. That is the person who is responsible under this part of the Act?—That is what I wa^s coming to. Overcrowding is different to many other nuisaiices. Of >vi. course, if there is some defect in the driain the "person , ; \ , i&spoMibl^'tfie owner, may be perfectly innocent, and ': -therefore it would lie wrong to inflict any penalty upon him'if he does all he can to abate the nuisance when it is drawn to his attention. But it seems to me that the local authorities have not regarded sufficiently the person who is primarily the delinquent. How- ever much the owner or occupier may be respon- sible, ,the primary delinquent is the head of the family ..who is. guilty of the overcrowding and introducing his .vinjp house .• or room, or if, as an individual, being^ an ;^4ult, he makes one of the persons to over- utterly new. to $heiii tKat" it is any offence." That there is only one way of teaching them in the matter, and that is by inflicting a penalty, , 410560; (Chairman.) Will you now reduce it to a prac- tical result? An owner may be a mortgagee with the legal estate in him. Are you intending to make the- rack-rented tenant, who is in actual possession and control of the house, the person liable to the penalty ?— I should first of all look at the man who is originally responsible, and that seems to be the person who ac- tually overcrowds. 10561. Will you give a name to him ?■—I will call him the lodger, if I may be allowed. 10562. Would you say lie was a lodger if he was the- occupier of the whole house?—No, but supposing one room is overcrowded, power is given, there, because you do not find that one house occupied by one family i§; overcrowded—not often. 10563. You would make each room a tenement?— Supposing it is. 10564. And the dominus of that room the person liable ?—I call that the premises. That is the pla^e- over-crowded. 10565. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You mean the persons who actually takes the room ?—Yes, the room tnat might be overcrowded, because I find very often that it is done- in spite of the landlord. They very often come to me. A poor woman will come before me, and, she will say,. "A woman came the day before yesterday, and she said she wanted one or two rooms for her husband and one or two little children. She came, and she brought seven children, and she brought her cousins and her aunts, and a daughter's husband came also." That is th© sort of story they tell, and they say, " What am I to. do?" 10566. (Chairman,)• That would be rather the higher landlady letting to a person who would come and com- plain in that way ?—Yes, and sometimes, they say to the magistrate, What are we to do ? " When a person comes ito me in a case like that, T have given imme- diate relief, and I have cured it in three days. ' . How have you given immediate relief ?—Under tills Act. It is a curipus anomaly, but in a case of at private individual making the complaint, it is hot neces- sary that he should give any notice. If any person seea a nuisance of any sort under this Act he can go to % magistrate, and say, " I saw a nuisance at such a place, and I want a summons." 10568. What do you do ?—I would grant a summons. 10569. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) In this particular case you grant it to the landlord ?—No, to the lodger—the person who comes. 10570. (Chairman.) That is as against the lodgers—it would be the case of the landlady against the lodgers ?:_ Yes, exactly. .1-^571" {Sir Kenelm Digby.) The immediate lessor o£ the lodger ?—The landlady or landlord. 10572. The gist of the complaint is this : the person* who lets the room to the tenant isays, " I have get a tenant there who is bringing in his aunts and cousins, and all the rest ?"—Yes. 10573. Then you grant a summons to the person who has let the rooim against the tenant?—Yes, and I make- it returnable the next day. . j. t2hen wllat do y°u do in such a case?—1 tell the officer to communicate with the sanitary officer, so that I can get technical opinion with regard to it; he- visits the place the same evening, and the warrant officer, goes a, so. The next day they come before me, and if it, is proved, < I make an order for abatement if I think proper forthwith. 10575. When you make an order for abatement, what is the process 1—I make an order for abatement, and if; it^s not abated that day, then a summons issues for the- offence for not abating. lodafj- (Ghairman') Against the lodger?—Against the- ..,10577. Will you telil me what happens when you order - H abated? What practically becomes of these- people who are in this house ?—That I cannot say, but I may say with regard to that I was very much struck with the evidence of Dr. Shirley Murphy. He said that im his experience if a house is overcrowded, the people are absorbed somehow. The alternative, and it may be ai cruel alternative in some respects, is that the ,man must go to the workhouse. 10578. We also have had it in evidence that the room fills up again ?—Yes, that is quite true, but that i* because the Act is not looked upon as punitive. If this? person to whom I am alluding, the lodger, or a similarMINUTES 'OF EVIDENCE. 347 person prosecuted by the sanitary officer, was fined £10 or a reasonable sum, then the neighbours would know $hafc 10579. Why do you not fine him £10 ?—That is a •question that I am glad to answer. During the 13 years I have been a magistrate, at the Thames Police Court* I can only recollect one case where a person has been charged by a sanitary authority before me for over- crowding. 10580. You have had complaints from the indepen- dent citizen jdio conies before you ?—They are individual •complaints, 10581. But you have power to convict under those icpmplaiyts ?—I have acted in those cases. 10582 And fined the defendants £10?—No. 10583., Why do not you ?—I cannot, and I will tell you why, my Lord. That is another curious anomaly. It is very doubtful whether if the proceedings are com- menced by a private individual, the magistrate can inflict a penalty, and whether his power is not limited to making the order of abatement. If your Lordship will allow me, I will refer to the section. Section 12, paragraph 1 of the Public Health Act, 1891, says: Ki Complains of the existence of a nuisance liable to be •dealt with summarily under this Act on any premises Within the district of any isanitary authority may be made by any person, and thereupon the like proceedings shall Tbe had with the like incidents and consequences as ^ making of orders, fines for disobedience of orders, appeal, and otherwise, as in the case of a like complaint vby .the sanitary authority." I think there is consider- able doubt upon those words as to whether it allows the magistrate to inflict a penalty. 10584. I am sure, if you say so, you must be right, •because you have considered it; but I do not see where the difficulty arises?—I may say with regard to that category of cases which I have mentioned, where com- plaint is made by a private individual, it is only recently that I have realised that I could deal with a nuisance in that way, and I have only dealt with it in one or two -eases, 10585- I should be very sorry to be brought before you under that clause, because I do not think I should get •out of it?—I think in the few cases I have had, the nuisance was at once abated. 10586. Would you suggest that that Act should be amended by making it more punitive for the offence of overcrowding if there is disobedience of an order?—No, I think it it is sufficiently punitive now. 10587. You want the sanitary authority to apply to jou to fine ?—Yes. With regard to the prosecution by sanitary authorities, the magistrates naturally place the utmost reliance upon them, and if they come and •say, " I wish for an abatement order in this matter, I do not ask for a penalty," it seems to me the magistrate would be going out of his way if he inflicted a penalty, I think every'judge would assume that the prosecutors litigating before him would ask for quite as much as they, would be entitled to. 10588/ Is the application for an abatement order in writing like an information ?•—No. 10589. It is verbal ?—1The information laid at the commencement of a proceeding need not be in writing, and it is seldom in writing, but of course the- notice of abatement is in writing. 10590. When the sanitary officer comes before you, I understand that he tolls you what he wants 1—Yes. 10591. You can say to him, " Why do you «riot ask for a penalty" ?—I should, my Lord, now, with the present light which is on this matter, if I ever had any case before me. , , 10592; May I ask if the Alien Commission ha® done some good in bringing to light these matters $—1 have liad no opportunity, excepting in these private cases. I, ,have^ considered the matter very seriously since the Cdmmission ; was appointed', but I 'have never had occasioii to consider it before, because I have only had this One' case; that I recollect. eil0593! (Sir Renelrn, Digbyj You say you have only had one case in which there has been an application?— •YeS) I ..think only one case. I. saw. something in the ^evidence i atlier criticising the action of the magistrates with regard to not inflicting penalties; but as I haye liad no experience, I ain not able to deal with that. I •know, as a matter of fact, that the magistrates naturally «144. would, subject to reason, yield as much as they could Mi\ F. to the wishes of the sanitary authority. — 10594. This is very important, and therefore you will 15 Dec. 1902, excuse me if I go over the ground again a little. As a matter of fact, you do have, I suppose, a good many applications under this Act upon notices for abatement? —For other nuisances. 10595. Not for overcrowding?-—No, I have never had but one, I think. 10596. Therefore you really personally, whatever Mr. Dickinson may have done, have made very few orders with regard to overcrowding ?—I have only made one as far as my recollection goes. 10597. We have been told here by several witnesses it is extremely difficult" to get orders from magistrates, because the magistrates feel the difficulty' of making orders which will have the effect of turning people into the street, when they will not be able to get houses elsewhere. Is that your experience?1—It would not deter me, I must confess. r 10598. And it lias wot deterred you?—it has not deterred me. 10599. Because you have not had the application ?— I have not had the opportunity. If the Act is to be enforced at all, you must face that, but I think the penalty would ease it exceedingly. Supposng you have an overcrowded street from beginning to end, and you begin with number one, and you summon that man, and a substantial penalty is inflicted, besides an order of abatement, it seems to me practically the order of abatement is immaterial. You inflict the penalty. Then perhaps he cannot pay. 10600. (Major Evans Gordon.) That is the point ?:—- Then you ascertain when you inflict the penalty whether he has got any goods, and whether the goods are enough, and whether it would be more injurious tor levy a distress than to send him to prison. If you are satisfied that distress is not available, one must face it. The man must go to prison. 10601. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There has been a haziness in some of the evidence as to whether there is power ?— I think there is not the slightest doubt about that. I recollect in their evidence the medical officers did not realise that that was the fact. What is the fact? I think it is much kinder in the long run than taking each hous& seriatim, and getting, orders of abatement, and .giving them time to go away. The man next door realises that a sentence of a month's imprisonment may be the penalty, and he looks about him, and he abates the overcrowding, and so all down the street, by the force of example you are able to purge the street. There is a, deterrent, otherwise you have not the slightest deterrent. It seems to me to be a mockery attempting to work it unless you 'have something at your back. The policy of the law is to consider that a man is responsible who has a family. It is cruelty. Not only does the overcrowding lead to the most shock- ing physical results, but it leads to most deplorable moral results, and the head of the family is responsible. I am not sure that he could not be punished under the Act for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, because it is cruelty to children not to give them sufficient sleep- ing #accommodation; their health suffers. There is a section in the Act to which I have referred which deals with the matter. 10602. {Chairman.) Our legislation! must be much more direct. We cannot leave it open to the question of whether a man has children or not. We want it to apply clearly to all people. What you have mentioned would only be indirect ?1—Yes; but it seems to me the adult who goes in with six or seven others, and sleeps in the same room, if anything, is more guilty. 10603. Because it is an injury to the neighbours, apart from the children,?—-Yes; if a man ?s unable to provide aocoonmodaiSon himself, he must go to the Poor Law. Section 23, stub-section 2 of the Act for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children says: "This Act shall apply in the case of a parent who, being with- out means to .maintain a child, fails to provide for its maintenance under, the Acts relating to the relief of the poor, in like manner as if the parent had other- wise neglected the child." 10604. (Sir Kenelm, Digby.) You have spoken of the procedure which you would recommend against- the person who actually overcrowds, namely, the tenant. We have had a great deal of evidence here that over- x x 2348 EOYAL COMMISSIONf ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mead* crowding; ^cfmrage.d, because of the rise, of-rents ? :— —Exactly. . 1902 . .'. ' _ ' 10605. Have you aoiything to^s-ay as, to the; liability o|, ^persons, other than the tenant?—YesV). There ..is,, no construotiye, liability in the; mooter at ail, because it, is only wheii the .person by r whoseact^ default, or sufferance the nuisance exists cannot be, founjd, that the..owner, qr occupier is liable as such. In the, case of ''overcrowding, the person by whose 'd'ef alilt,' 'or f sufferance, it arises is always known, therefore the con- structive effect- of the section does , not come in. If he is liable at all, he is ..liable actually, so that ' if the occupier:—after he knows that his room is Over- crowded—if the landlord of the lodger knows that the room is overcrowded—--and he refrains, after knowing tfrat, from giving a week's notice, then he is respon- sibjle, lain/i a petti<y Oould bie ijnflioted upon him. Again, if the owner of, the 'house knows that the house, is being used in that way over and over again, and he has refrained from giving a quarter's, notice, or a, half; year's notice, or wihatever it may be, then he is guilty; a$, a principal, because it is by his sufferance that it exists. Therefore, he is liable, and he is liable to, a peni'ilty of £10, and, if the penalties were inflicted ori the lodger himself, where lie is in fault in the same saise, and also levied upon the occupier, and also upon the owner, I think that then, by degrees, and, in fact, very rapidly, the evil would be brought to an end, and, iti my opinion, there is no other remedy for overcrowd- ing- than enforcing the law with regard to' it-—no other remedy whateter. : ! , 10606. Does thai pretty well exhaust what |you have to say with regard to the first three heads' of your notes, that , is to say, the law with regard to over- crowding, the Public Health Act of 1891, and the reason why it has failed With regard - to the costs, there' seems to be a misapprehension with regard to that. One of the medical officers seemed to think there Was ri difficulty in obtaining Costs. 10607. (Major Evans-Gordon.} He said, absolutely that they could not recover them, ?-—I think I shall point out that there is a misapprehension there/ Where there is a penalty there is no reason why there should be costs, because there are very few cases Where £10 would not be a sufficient punishment as a deterrent. All tiie funds go to the local. Authority, so it is utterly immaterial whether it ik called penalty or ;costs, for they Can ask the magistrate to inflict an inclusive sum. 10608. Recouping themselves out of the costs ?^—Yes, then they, can, take them. It matters not whether you call it. a penalty or costs. < The question is what .is the proper fine to inflict,- iand if one gives costs one has always to -consider that as practically a fine. Suppos- ing for any re-ason there is any necessity to impose the costs .separately, there is no' reason why it should not be recovered with the penalty. The Summary Juris- diction Act provides .that where, costs are inflicted in conjunction with a penalty, the costs may be recovered m the same way as the penalty. 10609. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Practically it is an addi- tion td the penalty ?—Yes,' distress, and failing distress, imprisonment. It arises in that way. In the Public Health Act 'an Additional remedy is given to the pro- 1 fceCutbrs, It is a practice for magistrates merely to give a lump sum for costs, and not a sum to' include everything. They say : "We will give you £1 3 s. costs, or we will give you three guineas costs," and prac- tically the local authority, if they wish, can say : et We do not want'any costs from you; we will go to the High Court or the County Court, or will come before you and will take civil proceedings for every farthing of expenditure that we have been put to," and they have a right to recover it, but then it becomes a civil debt and not ia penalty, and, in consequence of that additional power given, the local authqrity seems to think that it is an exclusion of the ordinary, remedy when my opinion is that it is in addition, and; I may say, with regard to - that, there may be some difficulty about it; but my friend Mr. Macmorran, who edits this book; on the Public Health Act, and is a very great Authority on public health matters, mentioned to me that lie took that view of it, and that seems to be the view of others. jShere seems to be no difficulty in getting costs at 'all. Shall I refer to the civil section .*$1 regard to costs ? ' 10610. I do not know that it is very material. We might ff&ss on from that. The next head of your •VidenCe is with regard to bye-laws, 'and you say no byer]awj» are necessary.. You think, the Acti$ suffix cient if properly worked—thie main clauses of the Actt and the nuisance clauses are sufficient. They seem to .* me perfectly sufficient.. Of course, if any objection can Be suggested,'I should erideavour to meet iL I have seen the "'bye-laws made by Stepney with regard to'« ..■10611. ;The 94th Section of the ..Act, says " Every , sanitary authority shall make and enforce such byer , laws a;s are requisite for the following matters, that is ■ to say,, (ai) fpr fixing the riumber of persons who, mayU occupy a^ house J or part of >a house which is let in ^ lodgings or occupied by members of more ° than, one - family, and :foi* the separation of the sexes in a house so let or occupied, (b) • for the registration of su'ch-^ houses so let or occupied,, (c) for the inspection of:, such houses,, (d) for enforcing drainage for such houses, aiH for promoting cleanliness and Ventilation in, such i houses"?—Yes,/ and there is incorporated with, this section, Section 182 of ;the Public Health Apt, ; 187.5 '• Provided that no bye-law made, under this" Act by a local authority shall be of any effect if repugnant fo the laws »of England, or to the provisions of this! Act." I think this, refers to the Public Health Act, 1B75? . £iit being adapted to the Public Health Act/ (Jjon^on),' tlie'wbo^a.:. "The provisions of thi&. Act," would,M I think, refer to. the Act of 1891. Oney Object of these bye-laws,., so far as I can understand, is this : That the inspector should be able to make .an. -, inspection by night, as well as ;by day.,. I, very much; question whether that,^provision is not ultra .vires. . 10612. WhyBecause the Act itself provides that^ the visitation can only be by day without & warrant. 10613. This Act gives special j^ower of making bye-' laws for-the inspection of such houses?—To regulate the* inspection which ife : alloWed: by law; but not to legislate afresh,1 and to say that any house may be invaded at 2 o'clock in the morning by an inspector without a warrant. : ^ : 10614. L cannot see why not ?—— y ; . , 10615. (Chairman.) Legally, there is no power, .you s.ay ?—I. should say it it ultra .vires.- * . 10616. Surely, as a matter of fact, you would : wish theim,' to have that power ?—No; -• o j 10617. Not to investigate at night?^—l1liey have already that power if they come before a magistrate and get a warrant. . . : 10618. In order to investigate and See what is going: on, why should'it not be at night ?— ' , : * 10619. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How can there be effi- cient inspection unless it is night inspection ?—-I see ho obstacle to their coming before amagistmte.. ' 10620, , The question is, whether the- seotion ex- pressly providing for the inspection does ^not; give thai power of inspection which is absolutely necessary, in- order that, there may be proper inspection. (Chairman^ What the witiness says is;1 that'they'can only make regulations to regulate the right of inspec- tion which exists. What are the words of the Act ?--- 10621. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) "Every sanitary autho- rity shall make and enforce such bye-laws as are re- quisite for the following matters (that is to say): (a) For fixing the number of persons who may Occupy a house or part of a 'house which is let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one family, and for the separation of the sexes in a house, so let.or* occupied ; (b) for the registration of houses so . let or occupied; (c) for the inspection of such houses." It is rather far-reaching, because ther Home Office fes certain powers of approving bye-laws, and the Local Government Board has certain power's. You would" not contend that bye-laws cannot add to the laW, be- cause it has been held very often the other way ?—Yes, I should. ! 10622. You would contend that you could not create a' fresh offence ?—You may create a fresh offence. (Chairman.) If they hiave power to do.it in terms. (Sir Kvnelm Digby.) You have power here to make bye-laws for the inspection of houses. 10623. (Chairman.), What is . said in tlie Act about inspection being by day?—I do not -say it,is not free from doubt,: but, I will, point out what a very strong ineasute it is, presently. Section 115, Sub-section 6 says:: " Where a house or part oft a house is alleged,, .AJOTflPSP, Q|* EVIDENCE 349 J)e «toybe oyer crowded, so as to be. fniiisaiice liable tq ^Oal|;; with ^umttMlyJtliijg;;Ajc|?"[a,''^aarailt under 's^ctioix maLj| auAorisfe 4n .enitty.. into ,such jhoiise ^.or r^art r 6f ; a lio^se ait afty hour. of Jhe 1 day or 'night !,S^cpi$ed)['uf the warrant." . ' Id feat- ig inQt. inspeotioii, .that is quite another thing?—An en try—an < inspection ■, is ^o-.^pod. without an entry. . ' 1 ) ~ •••• IQ^B.-Under -:. this - •p^ticTjlar: warrant., ..Is that all aihece -is inyour mind ?—Yes; , ,.. .... f'r 10626. > Them I think- Sir Kehelm' Digby is right, • be- cause there are general words of' inspection and1 they i are: not controlled by this But. you cannot inspect •unless you enter. * : '(Sir. Kenelm Digby.) It carries with li a. power of *^n.tTy..'' '""■■■ ( / . , !'^;5; _ . (Chairman.). It is a question> what is< the particular right of entry under the warrant of the magistrate, But thai gives power of inspection other than bj "virtue of the magistrates' warrant. It is a .general . 'j^ower ;af inspection. . a.. t», t. ' ./' w"~ (Sir'Kerielm Digby.) Is it aaotv& power give^i ®&e: bye-laws 'regulating, the inspection^; and,. if *it ? is. reasonably necessary, , to -inspect by night 2—Biit you. cannot .inspect without you center,■? and the.-Act v s: ' ! A'v- '"•••' • 15 Doc.- 1902. 10639. , (Sir,. Kenelm, .&gby.) No, but it. ,ig. iq .the The inspection can,only be of the houses which.fire^n the- register ?—T$ie bye-law is not limited. in t-ha£, ^y^ ;i10640. .But:the'Act :is ?-^So far the bye-l^w'il^ad:' J 10641: (Major •Evans^Gordon.) Put it in this Way: that every house practically in. Stepney takes- in Jodgors^ —that is, practically, the whole of them can. be registered under: these bye-laws P—Yes, they can be put "(tinder re- gistration. -s1. '.(Major Evans-Gordon.) It cdmes to the same tiling. (Chairman:) Mrst:,1 ybu' get' in (a) a desicripuon',of, tjie houses that are being dealt With'th;at is to say, fikMg. ; the number of .persons • keeping the house, or part of a : iiotise 3ef in lodgings. Now take (b), whiclr is f6r the : reg^stratioii of. houses; sdl&t, that' is in lodgings- The inspection vOf stich h6iiS6^ ^^that mttst ^refer t:6' ,(a);; f^nd not to (b); "such" and ci so; ■ are sytionyi^ous;'' (Sir Kenelm iDiflby;^ You :p&ss over (b) t ' ' 10642.i;(Chairma^.) Yes.. a So "1 refers to• (aj>; aw,d " such " refers to (a) too* J think that isithe^way^Mr. Mead put it?^-Yesr, the ., last . antecedent ta4r." such *! houses " is " houses to'let^and occupied "' 1 have put the^^point before thej Oomriiission. ^ >. Evans-Q-ordon.) It is rather important.to know whether they have not the right to go in,to houses with- out. registration or ,not, because that, giyes them im- mense'power. ; v 10643. (Sir Kenelrri Digby.) It ha-s been - generally; T think, taken the other way i—My object in mentioning. • it . was- that it seems to^ me that the alleged 'blerriish in the^ general law in not .'sufficiently providing for ;lnight inspection was. not ' cured by the bye-law] because-I thought it: was ultra vires\ but that is only my- own opinion. ■ • ;;r-i 10644. It would only be the inspection bye-law that would be ultra ?^es--although' there ^are others- that are open to exception. ' : 10645. They are not Home Ofece bye-laws, but' they are Lobal G overnnleiit Board bye-Jaws Tliere are- others that are opeif to;objection, but they do not affect the question of overcrowdihg. 11 \ r ..,,.10646. Your view, I take, it,and it -is really, all that important for; to-day, isr apart from ^ the- bye-laws, you f consider tha.t.there is;ample power, under:the Act itself . without the ;aid of the bye-laws ?—"Yes,.. > 10647. (Chairman\) If the sanitary authority take the right course ?-^Yes. ' 10648. (Major Kvdns-Gordon.) If they look upon it as punitive?—Yes. / , . f 10649. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) -Now, we may go to. the question of the port of London'.' What have you to? say about that?—I think Dr. Williams has nqt overrated the difficulties he has to contend with. A sihip moving on the river is not a house ; it must be " lying," A ship- moving upon the river m not, in my opinion, "pre- mises." If it was moored, of course, it would then be a house according to the definition in the Act, and I think possibly if it was moored or anchored it might be " pre- mises," because it would be attached to the soil. I ' -hink Dr. Williamis is right in thinking that he has no right to go on board until the ship is anchored, but he says there is no difficulty practically with regard to that,, because no captain would stop his goiiig on board, and I suppose he could always go on board under the wing of: the Custoon: House officers. But there is very great diffi- ' oulty in dealing with a nuisance which exists on the* f. ship. 10650. (Chairman.) Is there any physical difficulty with regard to a vessel steaming up the Thames—can he always get aboard that ?—Yes-, he can always get on board. I do not think these immigrant ships ever moor at Graves end. Coming so short a. distance, they know ' exactly when they will arrive, and they can always get the flood tide, and, I suppose, they are in transit. I v. suppose the Custom House officials would go aboard as ' the ship was moving along. Bul l have thought of some ways by which these difficulties might be circumvent el. I ^think a nuisance might exist in this Way, The . Biver Thajmes from; Gravesend to the docks might be • considered "premises." It is property which is vested in the Conservancy. The definition of " premises ia350 &OSAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION; Mr. F. Mead. th^ vAet is very far-reaching, and it includes all sorts of | —— : things. Section 141 says : " The expression ' premises ' 15 Bee. 1002. includes messuages, buildings, lands, easements, and -- hereditaments of any tenure, whether open or inclosed, Whether built on or not, and whether public or private, and whether maintained or not uiider statutory authority," It seems to me that in the case of a dirty ship, as described by Dr. Williams, with. ;a number of persons living there, that the Thames, so - far as that ship is concerned, is " premises" upon which a nuisance exists, and it might be dealt with in that way. Take, for instance, the defective water closets described by him. 10651. I cannot see how you can call the Thames "premises." It must have something built upon it?— Whether built upon or not, 10652. " Any land," which means that can be built upon. It means that it is a fit substance to be built upon ?—It may be, but I would only suggest that a pond m a man's park might be called his premises. How- ever, the point may be far-fetched. 10653- Because it is land covered with water, and if a man ihad an outrigger upon it, would that be part oi the .premises ?—I do not say the ship would be part of the iptemises, but I say the Thames is "premises." 10654. But he could enter the Thames and bathe in it if he liked, but how does that get him on the ship?—I suggest the ship being a nuisance on the Thames, the Thames is " premises," and therefore the nuisance is apon premises. 10655. You want the power of entry i—I thought I had jpassed from that. There is no right of entry. 10656. You admit that?—Yes. 10657. (Major Evans^Gordon.) It is hardly prac- ticable, because he does, as a matter of fact, go on board when the ship is in motion. What he has not ;power to do is to pull her up ?—Yes. The premises are the Thames, and, of course, he has a right to go on these jpremises. 10658. (Chairman.) Your point is, that you can abate the Thames?—Yes. Then Br, Williams says, "I have not time to communicate with my authority." . I know -the members of the Common Council of the City of Lon- don to be the most self-sacrificing gentlemen. I do not see why a deputation of the Committee should not l)e on the spot with Dr. Williams, and then he could ♦communicate with them at once. But there is a case which I do not think has been sufficiently realised, "The Jjondon County Council v. Hobbis," and that lays down that the public authority may delegate such a matter as this to an officer. That case is reported in 61, " Justice of the Peace," page 85 ; the 75th Law Times," page 687 ; and the 45th " Weekly Reporter," page 270. I 'think that if Dr. Williams took legal advice las to these points, some way might be found out of the difficulty. 10659. What is the difficulty you are dealing with ? —-That if the medical officer has not time to com- municate with the sanitary authority. 10660. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What do you suggest he should do?—I suggest Ui&t he should go to the autho- rity, and request them to give him a general autho- rity^ to take proceedings in such cases as these, and, according to tlhe case I have quoted, I think they Wwuld "have such power. 10661. In the case, for instance, of Russian vessels ? —Yes. 10662. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It may be a matter of importance that he should have that power in future, but I think, from what I have gathered abroad, that there has been considerable improvements, because the report that was published created a great stir in Russia, and .also since my visit, wheni I inspected the sslhips over again, improvements have been made in the "Libau ships, which, perhaps, were the worst ones. The Hamburg ships are very carefully regulated by the 'Government, and, I think, as a matter of practice, most of the vessels come in under more decent conditions?—■ So Dr. Williams said in the subsequent evidence that he 10663. (Chairman.) Which were the best ships ?—-I liave no eixperience at all of that. * 10664i (Mtijor Evans-Gordon.) At the same time, I do not think we should lose sight of the poinjt alto- gether, that it would be important to give the medical officer the tight td! go on board and keep these ships up to the standard ?—Yes ; I think that could be done if there is any legislation by substituting for the word "lying" the word "being." Any ship being in, tha Thames, or any port, that could be made a house. That would clear away all the difficulties. I only mention this, because I thought it might assist the sanitary authority, if they knew there might be a way out of their difficulties. 10665. (Chairman.) WThat you want is practical actioto promptly taken without any circuitous proceedings?— Yes; and, of course, Dr. Williams could act in Jiis private capacity for the purpose of abating it, but I do not think that would be much good. 10666. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) You have communicated to the Commission your proposals for remedying, what is to be assumed, for the present purpose at all events, to be an evil, namely, the enormous amount of immi- gration which takes place in the East End, and the consequent evils of overcrowding, and so forth ?-—Yes. 10667. (Ckuirman.) I attach great importance to what we are coming to, and I should like you to go through each clause, and then deal with the facts mentioned in it?—-My pronosal is this: That the Act should fee en titled, " An Act to Restrict the Immigration of Undesir- able Aliens." The first section would be this : " In this Act an 'undesirable immigrant' means an alien whose domicile in England is, or is likely, to be detrimental to the community on the ground of (1) bad character, (2) physical or mental disease, (3) dirty or offensive habits, or (4) no immediate probability of being able to live permanently in proper conditions of health or decency without the assistance of public charity or poor law relief, provided that an alien, who has resided continuously for more than one year in England, shall not be included in the above definition. Then, to get the machinery of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, I pro- pose the words " To be an undesirable immigrant shall be a summary offence." 10668. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What would be your idea of the kind of evidence by which bad characters could be proved, in order to make the person guilty of the offence of being ?n undesirable immigrant?—You will observe I have thrown the onus, if the court thinks proper, on the person accused. 10669. But supposing you assume that the onus i& where it ordinarily is, namely, on the prosecution ?— I have suggested that the foreign consul should be in communication with the authorities here, and should give notice to the captain, and that it should be the duty of the captain to deliver the document to the in- spector. 10670. (Chairman.) But what is the measure and the proof of bad character? What do you say constitutes bad character?—Shall I give some illustrations? 10671. Yes?—'Take the case of an anarchist. 10672. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you over-riding the Extradition Acts there?—-No, I think not. Ex parte Meunier was an anarchist case, and he was given up, notwithstanding he was an anarchist. The distinction laid down was this, that there must be two parties, as it were, in the State, one warring against the other, before the political exemption comes in. 10673. (Chairman.) Do you treat a man who is guilty, or likely to be guilty, of a political offence as a bad character ?—-If he were detrimental to the community, 10674. I do not express any opinion on it, because it is a very broad question. We have been the sanc- tuary for. political offenders, and have never given them up yet ?—I do not think it is for me to give any opinion with regard to that. 10675. It is a very broad question ?—Yes. 10676. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Can you satisfactorily have any evidence, on which the court could act, of bad character, unless it is evidence oif the conduct and pro- ceeding of the man here, after he has come here?— There is plenty of evidence after he has come here, but I do -not think we ought to interfere with him if, after he comes here, he becomes a bad character. I think he must be tainted with the bad character when he lands. 10677. The difficulty I have is to see what kind of evidence you could possibly accept 'here as proof of his bad character without departing altogether from our existing legislation ?—First of all, I would take evidence on landing, and I suggest an anarchist. That has been decided in re Meunier, although I have not the refer- ence here. There an anarchist was not protected, and he was givan up.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, O0>l 10678. There might be different, ideas of anarchists in different countries ?•—Yes. 1067&. {Chairman.) Was. hot that a. case where they grounded it 011 murder?—Yes. 10680. The point was there that, although he might be moved to commit murder by some political feeling, that did .iiot cause the offence to be other than murder, but he was given up specifically on the charge of mur- der?—He was given up on the charge of murder, but what I understand is this. As I understand extradi- tion, law, even if a man were guilty of murder, but it is affected by politics, he would not be given up. 10681., If it is in a rebellion, you may call it murder in :one sense, and. that that is a political act, but if a mail, says, " I ought to get rid of all kings and sover- eigns," and goes, and stabs somebody, then the court holds that that is murder, and you cannot look at the other circumstances ?—That is so. 10682. If the man is controlled by political action, then it is a political offence?—Yes. 10683. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is obviously a very difficult question, as those who remember the arguments in the Legano case will remember ?•-—Lord James has expressed what is in my mind, if I may say so. i <10684. Would you leave that to a Court of Sum: mary Jurisdiction without the safeguards of the Ex- tradition Act ?—You would have the habeas corpus. 10685. But you would not have all the safeguards that you have in the Extradition Act of the jurisdiction oeing vested only in the magistrate at Bow Street, and the time for applying for habeas corpus, and so on, which is also carefully guarded ?—The Act could "be amended with regard to that. 10686. It would be entirely done away with ?—I only mention the anarchist case as class of case. . 10687. (Chairman.) Supposing this man had been « man who . haid been constantly drunk and disorderly in the, streets of St. Petersburg, wQuldthat kind of conduct constitute bad character?—I think so. 10688. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How is that to be ptoV^d^by thfc certificate of the Russian police ?—No, If you could not get any actual evidence, I should say his conduct over here would be evidence of what he was before. If you find, directly a man lands here that he is drunk and, disorderly, I think the® that would be evidence thiat he is a drunken person. 10689. My difficulty is as to the ^ proof of bad cha- racter , before, he came here ?—I think his character here, immediately after landing, is evidence of bad character before,he came here. 10690. (Chairman.) Then why should you not de- pend upon any bad action here alone, and why should you hark back and suppose there was something be- hind, if he had been guilty of bad conduct here? Why should you iiot relv on bad conduct here ?—I personally should have no objection to that, but I thought that might 'be objected to as being stringent, I was going to put before the Commission some other matters with re- gard to bad character. ' Take, for instance, prostitu- tion. At the East End, continually, foreign women are brought before me charged with annoying people, and the inspectors have risen in their places over and over again, and said: " I must call your attention, sir, to this'evil; it is impossible , to walk along the streets without being annoyed by the accosting of these wo- men," It seems to me that the gemeral improvement in : morality; at the -East End and elsewhere is very much defeated and injured in consequence of this im- portation, I have communicated with Mr. Kennedy, thy magistrate at Marlborough Street, with regard to what happens there, and he has given me some statis- tics for the year ending December 11th, 1902. The decent Vagrant Act, of 1898, makes it an offence for ihen to subsist on prostitution, and also the subse- quent Aot makes , it am offence for males to solicit. He says, With regard; to the cases of living on. prostitu- tion, during the year there were 18 convictions of foreigners. That is a large proportion. Of youths soliciting out of 29 convictions altogether, there were only one or two foreigners, but he says, that during the year 461 foreign prostitutes were charged, He said they are unable to speak English, and upon being d&ked. r how * long .they had been in the country, they sajpy " From on*}i week; to three months." He says, also, th&t in; .their train cojne foreign bullies, brothel-keepers anreyenting the landing of such persons if you could — v prove they were of bad character, and deporting them, 15 Deo. 190& if subsequently they showed by their conduct here that .......... they were persons of bad character when they came. Of course, if it can be enacted that if they are of- bad character here within a year they will be deported', so much the better. 10691. We are beginning rather to put an artificial meaning on the term "alien immigrant." Those* people you speak of at Marlborough Street are French prostitutes who come over to Soho ?—Yes. 10692. Do you find in your police-court there are many of these people who are Russian and Polish women who come over as prostitutes ?—-I should ima- gine they come over as prostitutes, because I think very soon after they come here they commence theii life tas prostitutes. 10693. Do they come over here for the purpose of carrying on their living here by prostitution ?—I should rather imagine many of them do. There are- not only Russians and Poles, but there are many Germans. 10694. Is it a large proportion compared with tW English?—Yes, it is a very large proportion. They are more shameless and more persistent. 10695. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The whole class of foreigners?—Yes. 10696. But with regard to the Russian and Polish Jews ?—I cannot say anything especially with regard' to tliein. I may say I have used much more general terms than are used, either in the Australian legisla- tion or the American. They require a conviction, but very often a person who has been convicted is less harm- ful than a person who has not been convicted, and I think it would be a mistake to limit it in that way, because a very large class of undesirable persons who- would be most detrimental to the community would be allowed to come in. Then with regard to physical or mental diseases, you may have a person who attempts* to land in an advanced state of tuberculosis, and, cer- tainly, his presence here would be most detrimental to the community; thiat would be a matter which could be determined on the spot. 10697. (Chairman.) Do you object to the physical disease, because it is infectious, contagious, or because' a person who is in a weak state of health is a burden to the community ?—No. Not because he would be a burden to the community^ but because his presence here on sanitary grounds would be detrimental. 10698. That would be " infection or contagion" ?— Yes, but that would not, T think, be included in the- Act against infection. Tuberculosis would not be in- cluded in that. 10699. We are tasking your opinion with regard to* this Act?—Yes. Then take " dirty and offensive habits." Supposing a man comes as a verminous; person on board ship, that would prove that his habits were dirty and offensive, and I should certainly have him sent back. 10700. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The evidence which we have had clearly shows that these people in a com- paratively short space of time seem to improve ?-—Yes, but then, when they are improving, I think their pre- sence here i^ detrimental. 10701. {Chairman.) It is rather vague for legislation, is it not: " Offensive habits " ?—We have much vaguer expressions to interpret tha,n that. I do not see that. 10702. There may be serious consequences. I am- afraid to say how many people one might be acquainted: with., with some sort of offensive habits ?—<1 do not think the magistrate would be too severe. Then the- next clause, I propose is: " No immediate probability' of being able to live permanently in proper conditions of health and decency, without the aissistance of'public: sharity, or poor-law relief." 10703. You would strike out, the word " public," would you not?—-! think "personal" charity should' be allowed. Supposing a man had got an old friend' lie wished, to support, I would not prevent that. Sup- posing a man had a grandmother, whom the would like to have to live with him here, I would not prevent that. 10704. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The sort of people we*ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : .i .,1 , 1 _ ' Ir. £>Mead. ^e : concerned with do; not cpme on ' the public , for c,m:reliefs except in the form pf medical;Relief ?—No, they g Dte^i902. do not, but they overcrowd, , (| , , f " .10705. (Mr* Vallance.) By " public " charity, do you mean " institutionalcharity ?—Yes. ^ i(j706. (^r i^enelm l)igby.). What one is thinking of is the great Jewish charities?—If a man said I have rioi other, means >• of] living except I go to a Jewish ;sheLler, T shoUild send hini back. ' ^0707. u(C1iMrmadl) Do not get into Unnecessary en- tanglements. You might simply have a mto Who was -absolutely penniless, and you might say, as the Ameri- cans d;o, • if he is not in possession of; means to enable him to live, you would send him back?—Ido not thi&kf that the Americans do,• exclude him, because he has not sufficient means* They only make him sign a form, in which he says, he is prepared to declare if he has got less than £6. This is the form tljat is madfe iifrder the regulations framed in America binder the Act (Producing document). ■ ib708tf , (" Whether in possession of money ; if so, whether more than 30 dollars, and how much less " ? —I cannot, discover that that is a bar to his going in. 2 have looked through the Acts very carefully. 10709. (Major Evans-Gordon.). I think it is in. the ■ liew Act?—I have not seen the new Act. 10710. (Chairman.) Do you wish him to be kept out if he has no means of living ?—Undoubtedly. : 10711. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What would be your test of that?—It would be a question. " Where are you going to sleep to-night?" "I am going tp sleep at such an address." "I know that place; that is a place where ten people are sleeping in a room. Have you not any better prospects than that ? I may get. work. I may get a job at 6s. a week wheeling a? barrow, acid as X have only to pay Is. or Is. 6d. for my accommoda taon, :I shall have enough to live upon," '10712, (Chairman.) But, practically, where is that: xfMstidn to be put—'at what stage of this man's- jdiirney ?—On board the ship. ' 10713. By the inspector ?—Yes. 10714. And if he says, "I am going to a refuge, and I do not know if I will meet my friend, Mr. So-and-so," What then ?-—If the inspector does not believe him then he will take the responsibility of detaining him and bringing him before a magistrate. If he does believe him, and allows him to go, observation could be kept upon him, and then if it was found that directly he got there he lived in this squalid, objectionable way, then he could be charged. J0715. We have to deal with this very difficulty, bub the -inspector, you- say, could prevent it by preventing iiis landing, and not letting him come here at all, and punishing him after he has landed ?—I do not suggest any punishment. ^0716. Yes, you do, because he is to be brought up fbefbr^ you, and he would be deported ?—Yes, so far as deportation is a punishment, certainly. 10717. And you say it is to be a summary offence ?— That is onl^to introduce the machinery. , wifel^B^t'stiJlr^iis an. offence.'?—Yes.. ':l:P7i®;^ Ybu i^oujd 'give- the sanitary officer of the Board of Trade on board the: vessel certain powers of inquiry, and he shall have power in certain cases to .-will not let you lanjrat all"?—Indirectly* What I suggest *s that he should say to the captain, li he thinks it desirable, " None of these persons that f have indicated are to land." ! 10720^ But you must say none or some, because there niay be five good ones and five bad ones?—He could not Signify these. He must apprehend them. Then he ih the custody of the captain. J 110721. Who can do what he likes with them ?—No, %.e must detain them there. ; " *• .10722. But he cannot bring them on shore. He might afcake them, back to Hamburg or anywhere else ?—He might take tiiem black, but he should detain them there jLntil tLe; rsumjnary court has adjudicate I have ^ade the suggestion . that tlie Home Secretary could institute a court, on bparcl ilijt w'as convenient. But Aat is, of course, a detail. 10725-4. Directly . . .you You shall* not land," *hen you must have an inquiry. Supposing the captain is under terms by his charter-party, and is unde^- demurrage or anything else, and he must go back, what would happen ?—In America he has to undergo •'all sorts of penalties. (Chairman.) I am thinking that practically we should have great difficulties. You would have the captain saying, "I must Wait while Hhey call their witnesses, and I must stop until it is all over. An inquiry into 15 or 20 peopld " — 10725. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You propose to detain the ship?—To give power to the Board of Trade officials' to cause it to be detained; but I think they would put a reasonable interpretation on it, and if they knew that the captain was an honest man they would land the per- sons and detain them in a shelter, as I suggest, and then they would go before a magistrate, and they could-dear with the captain on the next voyage. 10726. (Chairman.) That is an elastic power. You would give them discretion under certain circumstances to allow them to land and then deal with the captain af forwards ?- 10727. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You have a stringent power against the captain. The captain would be a foreigner in many cases ?—Yes, but it is not so stringent as it is in America. There they can impose six months' imprisonment in many cases for bringing undesirable persons. 10728.; (Major Evans-Gordon.) Bringing people Who fall specifically under aiiy of the provisions of that Act ? —Yes. Then I saw a suggestion made by the Rector of Spitalfields that they should be bound to show they had sufficient money. I should have nothing to say agaiiMt that if it were praoticaible. That did occur to me, but I think there would be a system—so ingenious are many of these persons—of passing the money from hand to hand, 'and I cannot see how you could discriminate between undesirable immigrants and others.. There is a large tourist trade done, and how are the Custom House officers or the persons who are to enforce this to tell whether a man is a tourist or whether he is an immigrant, and it might interfere with trade. You might get a buyer eoming over her«, and if you were to obstruct him by making him produce £6 he might resent it and go elsewhere. .10729. (Chairman.) Does not that objection to the tourist apply to bad characters ?—It is undesirable even to do trade with persons of that sort. 10730. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The immigrant surely is a separate trade. In practice it comes out more easy thani it appears to be %—Yes. There might be a capita1 tion fee on landing to make them pay or there might be a deposit. Then the second section I propose as: " The Board of Trade or the Commissioners of Customs when so directed by them shall appoint a sufficient number of inspectors at every port where necessary fbt the purpose of enforcing the provisions of this Act." 10731. (Chairman.) Would you have certain ports designated in respect of which those laws should come into effect, so as to get rid of the Dover and Folkestone passenger traffic ?—I should leave that to the Board o! Trade.. 10732. You would make that clear?—Yes, It says " where necessary." * 10733. They are to appoint a certain number Of persons where necessary. It does not say " shall ap- point to the port itself " ?—Then Section 3 : "It shal'2 be the duty of an inspector to apprehend any immigrant upon his arrival at a port whom he shall have good cause to suspect of being an undesirable immigrant, and shall thereupon cause him to be taken as soon ai? possible before the court." w ^: /10734:j Jsc not^that ^power a little arbitrary £ Manj of these men cannot .speak the'language, and the in- spector may not fully unrierstajnd Yiddish. This section says the man is" to: be apprehended and* taken before the court ?—I have provided that, the Board of Trade shall make such regulations .with regard to the employ- ment of interpreters as:>are necessary. 10735. Then the man may be locked up at the police'fetation ?-^No ; I have made provisions later an 'with regard to - detention. . - 10736. (Sir i^enrliii Digby.) u The court1* Would be ^ court .having jurisdictioii, where the ship is at ft defined as a pe&ty |essional\oourt. ' Th^t^must-. k 'metropolitan-' magistrate-^astSpefixlmrpMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 353 an Alderman of the City of London, or two justices. Then Section 4 is with regard to where a person hap- pens to be here and has been overlooked. The Board of Trade may cause information to be laid against him. Then Section 5 : " If it be proved to the satisfaction of the court that any person is an undesirable immigrant it shall make an order judging such person to be a prohibited immigrant." 10737. (Chairman.) Now we come to the second clas* —the prohibited immigrant?—That is where he is ad- judicated. 10738. Yes, it is a very good description?—Then Clause 6 : " Any number of immigrants who >iave ar rived by the same ship may be included in the same charge, information, summons, warrant, order, 07 other proceeding, or document." 10739. That requires a little consideration, because he may have arrived by the same Ship 12 months be- fete?—I mean at the same time. Then Section 7: " The court upon'making an order may'include therein any children apparently tinder the age of 16 who have arrived in England, or were residing at the time of the information"being laid in the charge of the person ad- judged to be a prohibited immigrant." Then Section 8 : " The court may make an order notwithstanding that the person charged or against whom an informa- tion has been laid may be a child, lunatic, imbecile, or other person incapable of understanding the nature of the proceeding; provided that the court may allow any person to give evidence on behalf of such incapable person or represent him either by himself or by coun- sel or solicitor. The court may cause -a summons to issue to any person whom upon appearing the coutd may allow to give evidence or represent the defendant. I need not explain the difficulty of that matter. Then Section 9 : " The court may, if it think fit, dispense with proof on the part of the prosecution, and may. in the absence of proof to the contrary, make the order." • 10740. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Nine is a little strong P— It is in the discretion of the court. It is done with regard, to a person in the possession of explosives. 10741. It is res ipsa loquitur there?—Yes. 10742. It may be the same with regard to undesirable immigrants?—Yes. 10743. (Chairman.) The Explosives Act only throws on the accused the onus of showing the contrary ?-—Yes. 10744. This, goes a little further ?:—Yes ; but although I am a magistrate, I think it is safe to give a great deal of discretion to the bench. 10745. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) No one feels that more strongly than I do, but I think, for the protection of the bench itself, it is sometimes wise to limit it ?—• Then Section 10. " Upon the order being made, it shall be the duty of the informant to send the pro- hibited immigrant from England, as hereinafter pro- vided." 10746. (Chairman.) What does that mean? Is that with regard to the expense of it ?—It may be. 10747. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Practically, that is the Board of Trade, I suppose?—Yes. I shall come to that presently. Then Section 11. " Where a suspected im migrant has been apprehended under Section 3, and a place of detention is necessary before he can be brought before the court, the place of detention shall be a shelter." Then I have put in/ these words: "Except where he is detained aboard a ship under Section 14." Then, " Provided that if the inspector, whilst the sus- pected immigrant is in his custody, or the keeper, whilst the suspected immigrant is in a slhelter, consider thai such detention is insufficient for safe custody, may deliver him to a constable, who shall thereupon! deal with hdm as if he had lawfully apprehended him for a summary offence." Then Section 12, "Where it is necessary to remand a suspected immigrant in custody, the court, if it think fit, may deliver the warrant of commitment to prison to the informant. In such case tfie place of detention shall be a shelter, but if the informant, whilst, the suspected immigrant is in his custody, or the keeper, whilst the suspected immigrant is in the shelter, consider such detention insufficient for safe custody, may deliver him, with the warrant, to a constable, who shall thereupon convey him to the prison therein/ named." Then Section 13 : "Where an order has been made, and a place of detention is neces- sary before the prohibited immigrant can be shipped, 6144. ths place of detention shall be a shelter. Provided Mr. F. Mead. that upon the making of the order, the court, upon - the application of the informant, may gra3Y< a warrant, 15 Dec. 1902. committing the prohibited immigrant to prison until - the informant shall require him for shipment, and the court may, if it think fit, deliver such warrant to the informant. If the informant, whilst the prohibited immigrant is in his custody, or the keeper, whilst the prohibited immigrant is in a shelter, consider that sucn, shelter is insufficient for safe custody, may deliver him," with the warrant, to a constable, who shall convey him fco a police-station. The prohibited immigrant may then be retained at the police-station until shipment, or be sent to prison, in conformity with the warrant, as the constable in charge of the police-station may decide. The prison named in the warrant shall be that to which the defendant would have been sent had he been re- manded." .Then the next Section (14), I have re-cast. "An inspector, upon apprehending a suspected immi- grant aboard a ship, may deliver him into the custody of the master, and, by written notice, forbid Mm to land such suspected immigrant until he receive written permission from the inspector to do so. If ihe court discharge such suspected immigrant, the inspector shall at once give written permission. If, after such notice,. the master shall land, or suffer to land, such suspecteu: immigrant, he shall be -guilty of a summary offence, and be liable to a penalty of £100." Then Section 15 : " Where a suspected immigrant has been apprehended,. and has left the ship on which he has arrived, he shall not be considered to (have landed, unless the court dis- charge him, or the ship has sailed before an order has been made." He is to be constructively on board. 10748. That is the American system ?—Yes. 10749. {Chairman.) Is he to go to a. shelter 1—Yesy he goes to a shelter. 10750. But if the ship has sailed, what becomes of him?—If the ship sails, he its not instructively on board then. The Section siays : "Where a suspected immigr ant has been apprehended, and has left the ship on which he has arrived, he shall not be considered to have landed unless the court discharge him, or the ship has sailed before an order has been made." Then Section 16: " Upon the written application of aai in- spector, clearance shall be withheld from any ship until the court has determined whether any suspected im- migrant, who has been a piaisisenger upon the last voyage of such ship, is a prohibited immigrant." 10751. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Might that not be rather difficult to carry out—to detain a foreign ship for a time?—It is done in America. 10752. I do not know that that is quite an answer to my question ?—It does not seem to have been resented diplomatically, and I think the Board of Trade officials can be trusted to exercise a proper discretion. Then " The inspector shall give written notice to the master of such ship of such application. If the master subse- quently sail, or attempt to sail, in spite of such clear- ance being withheld, he shall be guilty of a summary offence, anjd shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100." Then Section 17 " Where a prohibited immi- grant has not landed, either in fact or constructively, tinder this Act, the master of the ship on which he shall be aboard, either in fact, or constructively, shall con- vey him from England." The object of that section is to throw on the master of the ship, who has Brought the prohibited immigrant, the onus; of getting rid of him ; of selecting the port to which he shall take him, because a delicate question might arise as to where he should be sent. Then Section 18: " If, after written notice has been given to the master by an inspector re- quiring him, so as to -convey such prohibited immi- grant, the master shall refuse, or wilfully, or negli- gently fail so to convey him, or shall land, or cause or suffer him to be landed without lawful excuse, at any place in the United Kingdom, he shall be guilty of a- summary offence, and sh/all be liable to .a penalty not exceeding £100. Upon the written application of an inspector, .of which written notice shall be given; to the master, clearance may be withheld from such ship, so long as such prohibited immigrant is not aboard." 10753. Po you know (you have studied the working of the American Act) of any case where proceedings have befen taken, against a foreign master on provisions similar to these ?—You mean with regard to the clear- ance ? 10754. Yes?—No ; I have no statistics with regard to that. Then Section 19 : " Where a prohibited immi- Y y354 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN: IMMIGRATION : Mr, F. Meatf. grant lias landed, either in fact or constructively under - this Act, the informant shall sen/d him to such foreign L5 Dec. 1902. place, and by such ship as the Board of Trade, by - general regulations or special directions, may require." The American law provides that he shall be sent to the port from which he came, but I foresee a difficulty in laying that down by a strict rule, because he may be sent back from America, and, of course, we could not send him back to America. A delicate question might arise, and I have left it to the Board of Trade to decide by general regulations, or by special directions, in this particular case. Then Section 20: "The informant may require, by notice, in writing, the master of any ship belonging to the same owners as the ship on which the prohibited immigrant has arrived in England, to convey him to the foreign glace named in sucii notice. If the master refuse, or wilfully or negligently fail so to convey him, he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100. The provision with regard to withholding clearance in Section 18 shall apply to this section." 10755. (Chairman.) Why is it advisable'to give to the informant the right to designate to the master where the immigrant is to be taken to, as distinguished from saying that he must leave this country ? Supposing the master is not going to the place, and supposing the alien immigrant does not wish to go to that place, why should the informant say, " You shall be carried there" ?—He shall only do so under the direction of the Board of Trade. 10756. The words are: " The informant may require by notice in writing the master of any ship belonging to the same owners." In each case as it arises it would scarcely be subject to the regulations of the Board ol Trade. Supposing the informant hated this man, and knew the man was subject to Russian penalties, and he should say, " I demand you to take him to Odessa" s —The general regulations, I think, would control that. Section 19 says : " Where a prohibited immigrant has laMed either in fact or constructively under his Act the informant shall send him to such foreign place and by such ship as the Board of Trade by general re- gulations or special directions may require." 10757. But then Section 20 is different. Section 19 says what the informant may do, but Section 20 deals with the requirements to the master?—It is the same thing. There I am throwing it upon the owners of another ship, but the same owners of the ship bv which the man comes. 10758. It is quite sufficient if you say what you mean is that this shall be subject to regulations ?—Yes. Then Section 21: " If the master of a ship shall convey into England an undesirable immigrant he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable' to a penalty not exceeding £100. Provided that if he prove that he did not know, and had no reason to suspect such person to be an undesirable immigrant he shall not be guilty of the said offence." 10759. That is a very broad measure. It may be a very good remedy, but it is a very broad measure. The captain of a vessel under orders to take passengers, and passengers received by some agency office at the port to which the captain comes, and then you say, "Here is an undesirable." Is this protection enough, that he did not know, and had no reason to suspect such person? I suppose that would be enough protection for him?-—I think so. I think in American law to bring a man, per se, is an offence. 10760. (Sir Kenelm Diglry.) One would like to know how these liawis are enforced ?—Yes. Section 22 says : " If a Consul has good cause to suspect that an undesir- able immigrant has embarked, or is about to embark, upon any ship for England, it shall be the Consul's duty to give written notice to the master of such fact. If, notwithstanding such notice, the master convey such suspected immigrant, he .shall deliver such notice to the inspector at the port in England at which the ship shall arrive. If he fail to deliver such notice he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £10. The production of such written notice, or a copy certified under the hand of the Consul to be correct, and to have been given, shall in a prosecution under Section 21 be evidence unless . the contrary be proved, that such notice was duly given to the master." 10761. (Chairman.) The production of such written notice by whom ?—By the informant in court. 10762. How would the informant get it?—I have made it an offence if the master of the vessel does not give this notice to England. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The Consul would send a certi fied copy over. 10763. (Chairman.) Is that what you mean?—Yes. 10764. You are not speaking of the copy given to the master, but a certified copy ?—Yes. 10765. It is not such written notice only, but it is a copy certified—that is what you want?—Yes. 10766. And a copy certified under the hand of the Consul to be correct and a statement that it has been given ?—Yes. 10767. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) A certificate that it has been given?—-It may want a little polishing. 10768. (Chairman,) I see what you mean ?—Then Sec- tion 23: " If any immigrant detained under this Act at any place or aboard a ship for the purpose of being conveyed from England shall escape or attempt to escape, or being a prohibited immigrant shall return to England, he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to six months' imprisonment with hard labour, or to a penalty not exceeding £100." The*. Section 24: " Any person assaulting or obstructing an inspector or informant, or any person acting imme- diately under his direction whilst in the execution of his duty under this Act, shall be liable to the same penalties as if the person assaulted or obstructed was a police constable." Then Section 25 : "The Board of Trade shall provide furnished shelters for the detention of immigrants, proper subsistence for the inmates there- in, and vehicles for the purpose of conveying immi- grants to and from the ship, the shelter, and the court." 10769. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You would make no provision, as the Americans do, for a tax of 3dols. on every immigrant coming in to pay any expenses that would be attached to this provision ?—I should not ob- ject to that. They have doubled it now, I think. 10770. It is 3 dols. now ?—It was 50c. before. 10771. They have put up the most elaborate places there ?—Yes. Then Section 26 : " The Board of Trade may make regulations with regard to the appointment of inspectors, keepers*, interpreters, and other persons employed in the execution, of this Act, the use of the shelters, and conveyance." Then I have added this: " And the delivery by masters of ships of lists of immi- grants aboard with particulars of their circumstances." That is following the American plan. " And the ship- ment of prohibited immigrants, and for any other purpose necessary for the execution of this Act. Any breach of such regulations shall be a summary offence punishable by a penalty of not exceeding £10." Then Section 27 : " Upon the application of the Board of Trade the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs may make regulations for the purposes of this Act for the guidance of Consuls, and it shall be their duty to comply with such regulations." 10772. (Chairman.) That is scarcely a matter for legislation. That is for the Foreign Office ; but it is what you suggest?—Yes. Then Section 28: ."The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs may rescind with or without. conditions, suspend or modify any order under Section 5." That was in case of any diplomatic difficulty. 10773. That is hardly a matter for legislation, be- cause the Foreign Office has inherent power to do that ? —I was wondering whether they could rescind an order. 10774. It is clearly a direction to the Consul?—But this is with reference to something else, and it is in case a mistake has been made by justices in making an order. 10775. You say the Foreign Office may make regula- tions for the purpose of this Act, and you say it can re- scind these orders ?—That is another section—28. 10776. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It gives the Foreign Office a right to set aside the order of the magistrates ?—Yes. 10777. Setting it aside, and saying, "He is not an undesirable immigrant" ?—There might be diplomatic difficulties arising if the order was enforced, and I thought it wise to guard' against that by giving the Foreign Secretary full power to put an end to the order. 10778. {Chairman.) You show much more reverence co the Government Department than other people?— So much is that s# that I thought of giving similarMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 355 power to the Secretary of State for Home Affairs. It is not a matter, I think, in which the, Home Secretary could advise the King to rescind the order ; therefore, I thought the Home Secretary, where a mistake has been made, as there is no appeal, should have -tiio power of quashing the order if h)e thinks fit. 10779. There is no power in the King to rescind an order. It is only to mitigate punishment ?—I should give absolute power to tha Home Secretary, if he thought a mistake had been made, instead of having the cost and delay of an appeal, to say we do not think this man is an undesirable immigrant; and, therefore, we quash the order. 10780. If that is your intention, you are bound' to express it ?—Yes. Then Section 29: " Upon the ap- plication of the Board of Trade, the Secretary of State for'Home Affairs maty, if he think fit, by general or special order constitute any ship or place a petty-ses- sional court-house, and may make such regulation? as may be necessary for giving effect to the said order." As I said before, apart from that section, the inquiry could only be held at a place where justices ordinarily sit> and that might be evceedingly inconvenient, and ohe Home Secretary might think, or the Board of Trade might think it necessary or desirable' that the inquiry itself should take place on board the ship oi in a shelter adjacent. Then I come to Section 30. I think this would be necessary, and I have' added this: "All expenses incurred by the Board of Trade, the Commissioners of Customs, the Secretary of State for Home Affairs, and thei Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament." Then Section 31: "In this Act, if not inconsistent with the context, the fol- lowing expressions shall have the meanings herein- after respectively assigned to them: ' Suspected immigrants' means a person apprehended under Section 3, or against whom any information has been ]aid under Section 4. ' Prohibited immigrant ' means a person proved to the satisfaction of the court to be an # undesirable immigrant. ' Inspector' means a person appointed under Section 2 ' Informant' means the person who has charged a- suspected immigrant under Section 3, or laid' an information under Section 4. ' Court' means a petty sessional court. ' Shelter' means a place provided under Section 25. 1 Keeper' means the person appointed to govern a shelter, or, in his absence, the person appointed by him then to perform his duties. ' Master' means the master of & ship, or, in his absence, the person highest in authority then in charge. ' Consul ' means His Majesty's'Consul at any foreign place, or a person deputed to perform his duties. ' Order' means an order under Section 5." Then the next, I think, is rather problematical. " This Act shall come intc operation on the 1st January, 1904." Then Section 32 : " This Act may be cited for all purposes as the prohibited Immigration Act, 1903." That again is problematical. (The proceedings were adjourned for a short time.) 10781. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you anything more to say about your proposed Act?—No. 10782. I see there are- one or two other matters dealt with ins your notes with regard to the Americai; and Australian legislation ?—If the Commission wishes, I only wish to compare the provisions I have propose*3 with those of Australia. 10783. (Chairman.) We should like to hear what you have to say on that point ?—The definition of " prohibited imlmigrant " in the Commonwealth Act is, any person who when asked to do so by an officer fails to write out at dictation alld sign in the presence of the officer a passage of 50 word's in length, in an European language, directed by the officer." That is not even restricted to an alien, and it seetms to be any language at the discretion of the officer. 10784. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That provision is cne introduced into the new American Act, but whether it will pass or not I do not know ?—Yes. Then, " any person likely, in the opinion of the Minister or of the officer, to become a charge on the public or on a public or charitable institution"—that does not seem to guard against the person living in the over- crowded lodging—" and any idiot or insane person" 6144. that is comprehended in my proposed section in Mr. F. j "physical or mental disease." —r 10785. (Chairman.) What colony is this in?—The ^ ^ec' ^ Commonwealth of Australia. " Any person suffering from infectious or contagious disease of a loathsome or dangerous character"—physical or mental diseasa seem to comprise that, as it is coupled with " likely to be detrimental to the community." .Then, " Any person who has within three years been convicted of an offence, not being a mere political offence and who has been sentenced to imprisonment for one year or longer therefore, and has not re- ceived a pardon." That seems to me to be rather too restricted. I think persons ought to be excluded even .if they have not been convicted, if their character can be proved, and it is detrimental to the community. Then, " Any prostitute or person living on the pro- stitution of others." They would be included!'. Then. "Any persons under a contract or agreement to per- form manual labour within the Commonwealth, pro- vided that this paragraph shall not apply xo workmen exempted by the Minister for special skill required in Australia, or to persons under a contract or agree ment to serve as part of the crew of a vessel engaged in the coasting trade in Australian waters," and so on. This is a political question whether we should exclude persons ,of that class. That is, with regard to contract- labour. 10786. That was to keep out Chinese labour?— No. 10787. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It has been applied to the six hatters ?—I think they have special legislation with rp.gard to the Chinese. This to exclude com- petition in trade. (Chairman.) They wish to keep out native labour. (Major Evans^Gordon.) They prohibit the Chinese altogether. 10788. (Chairman.) They want to keep the trade to> Australian workmen ?—Yes, against all other work- men. The anomaly seems to me, that if a man, has a job to go to, he is excluded, but if he goes merely as a speculation he can go. 10789. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is the same in Ame- rica?—It is the same in America. 10790. (Chairman.) If he goes as a speculation, he may not take away work from the Australian labourer, but if he goes under a contract, he must. That is the difference ?—Yes. 10791. Have you studied the American law as it has existed up to the present?—Yes, I have. 10792. Have you any observation to make upon it?1 —No, except that it seems to me more stringent than the provision I propose. 10793. (i.Major Evans-Gordon.) This later Act you have not seen ?—No. There are a few statistics I have from America. From May 1st, 1893, to May 31st, 1894,. 13 convicts were excluded' during that year in Ame- rica ; five idiots and insane persons, and' 70 diseased persons; 610 persons likely to become a public- charge; contract labourers, 1,498. To have actually excluded 610 people means, of course, to have ex- cluded fair more, and if 610 people were excluded in America, it seems to me far more would be excluded here. This country is so much more accessible from the Continent, and, therefore, many more people come. 10794. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you got the total immigration ?—No. 10795. (Chairman.) There is much more induce- ment in America ?—Yes, I do mot think I have any- thing more to bring before the Commission. 10796. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In the first instance, tiiere are one or two general questions, more especially with regard to aliens. What proportion had the charges against aliens in your court compared to the- whole charges you have?—I have no statistics. The police might give you statistics. 10797. Cam you give us any idea what sort of offences these people are charge^ with ?—No, I do not think I can specify anything. 10798. Have you noticed there is .any tendency for aliens to be charged with any particular kind of offeiice, such as bettiag, gaming-houses, and so on f Y Y 2356 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. F. Mead. —No, 'and I should rather, as I have already said, --- prefer not to give any opinion with regard to them. 15 Dec. 1902. 10799. Have you found it is more difficult to get ' 1 evidence, other than police evidence, in, cases in which aliens are concerned than in cases in which natives sre concerned ?—No. 10800. Do you find that fines in lieu of imprisonment are more readily paid by aliens or by natives ?- think I may say this, that when foreign Jews are fined they 'almost invariably pay. 10801. Do cases of wife-desertion come before you a,t all?—Yes. 10§02. Have you noticed recently increasing numbers of oases among the alien population of wife- desertion ?—No, I do not think I can say that. 10803. Would you say, speaking from your position as a magistrate generally, that the district over wihich your jurisdiction goes 'has improved or deteriorated, so far as offences aganst the laiw are concerned ?—I dc not think I can say there hias been much change either way. 10804.. How long, have you been there?—Twelve years. 10805. You say it remains about the same ?•—I think 80. 10806. You (have told us about the prosecutions uuaer the sanitary law, and you have only had one prosecution for overcrowding ?—I think so. I will not pledge myself to that, but I only recollect one. 10807. But a good number with regard to other sani- tary requirements ?—Yes. 10808. You think that if the law were administered strongly, or in a punitive sense, as you said, that magis- terial interference would have considerable effect with regard to overcrowding?—I am certain it would. It would suppress that, as it does every other offence. 10809. One or two questions about that. Overcrowd- ing, you would say, is extremely prevalent?1—I cannot say that, as magistrate, because I have nothing to guide me. 10810. But you have seen it stated that overcrowding is very prevalent ?—I have read the evidence here, asd in other places. 10811. The County Council statistics, for instance, go to show it is more here than in any other part of London ?—Yes. 10812. Overcrowding goes on in all parts of London ? —Yes, I should think so, and undoubtedly will, unless checked. 10813. And it is more accentuated in the East End than in other parts ?—Very likely. 10814. You say that procedure under the Act would be effective ?—Quite so. 10815. And would abate overcrowding on any con- siderable scale, that is to say, to make any real differ- ence the law would 'have to be enforced on a consider- able scale?—Yes. 10816. Not only enforced in the East End, but en- forced all over London ?—Quite so. 10817. Otherwise you would be only transplanting bad conditions from one district to another ?—Yes. 10818. Therefore, it would mean! really, I take it, a general hunt of overcrowded people all over London ?— Yes; but I do not think it would require any larger number of officers than! you have now, because one case of punishment may deter 100 or more. 10819. Your theory is that a prosecution with a £10 fine at No. 1 house in a street would clear out all the others?—Yes, it would be a deterrenlt to the imme- diate neighbourhood. 10820. Whether or no you increased the number of officers, or whether, by severe prosecutions in isolated cases, as you say, the effect would be the same, that you would get a large population dishoused ?—Yes ; but I should not now. 10821. Simultaneously dishoused ?—The mischief has been allowed to grow. I should not recommend now that the measures be too violent. It would have to be done by degrees. 10822. You are going to abate an evil, which is said to exist on a large scale; therefore, if the result is im- provement, whatever it is going to be, and it is going to Wye any real practical effect-—I do not mean clearing out a house here and a house there, but I mean a real practical effect in improving the question of overcrowd- ing, then you must be severe, and you must drive out, otherwise you would have no effect?—No. 10823. You do say now thajt it has gone too far, and you could not enforce severe measures ?—I would not recommend 100 prosecutions a week, or anything of that sort. It must be done in a reasonable way by degrees—not too much to harass people, but to give them an opportunity of going elsewhere. ' > 10824. But if reasonably done, then the difficulty is growing up as fast as you move it ?—No, I do not think that. I think you could make a gradual impression on it. If it had been done at the outset, when the- overcrowding began, ifc would be a different matter. 10825. But we must look at the facts as they are now. We have what is admitted to be a great evil, and what I want .to know is how you propose practically to deal with it. You say a gradual enforcement of the law ?— Yes; I should think in two or three years you would make a very considerable improvement if you com- menced a punitive crusade. 10826. According to the County Council statistics, which we shall have given to us presently, you hav<- am immense mass of people living under overcrowded conditions that you have got to get rid of ?—Yes. 10827. I have never heard it suggested where it ife proposed that these people should go ?—That is their own lookout. Not only would you displace people by prosecutions, but you would deter others coming, not only from abroad, but from the provinces. London is A most attractive place, and it i« the paradise of beg- gars. I can give you an instance where a Jewish beggar, a most abject-looking person, was found in possession of £110s. in gold and a Fost Office Bank-book for £7. 10828. That was a case that occurred the other day? —About six months ago, I think. 10829. You say it is their own lookout where they are to go to ?—Yes. You must throw the responsibility upon the heads of the families to provide for their families. 10830. Your position) is this: You have allowed the people to come, whether from remissness of legislation or not—there they are, and you have to clear them out. You do not consider it would be any hardship to say to people " Clear out," without offering them any suggestion where to go?—No; I should certainly not take any responsibility as to where they were to go, but, as I have said, I observe that Dr. Murphy, in his evidence, «aid that that is mot such a difficulty as people seem to apprehend) and that the population would be absorbed". They go back to the country. They only come here because wages aire high, and be- cause life, to their idea, is brighter than in the remote country. 10831. (Chairman.) And sometimes persecution drives them here ?—Yes, from abroad. 10832. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The problem is com- plicated by new arrivals, whether from abroad or from the coumtry ?—Naturally. 10833. The more people come in, th© greater the difficulty that arises?—-Yes; but directly you begin to make an impression on the foreign aliens here with regard to overcrowding, it would soon, be understood on the Continent that if a man comes here, and can only live by overcrowding, he would be prosecuted, and it would be a very excellent deterrent. 10834. At the outset, it would be attended by hard- ship?—Yes; but I think it would at once tend to diminish the flow directly the penalties were injflicted. 10835. In saying that, you have taken into considera- tion the well-known and obvious natural tendency, par- ticularly of these foreigners, to congregate together ?— Yes. 10836. There is a natural tendency bringing them together always?—That is so, On account of their lan- guage and their religious persuasion; you would deal with them, as I understand, after they have landed for a year?—Yes, . if they evaded stoppage upon landing, or attempting to land.. 10841. The question of political offenders in a foreign country would not arise P—No, I do not see how it could -arise. 10842. I understand the political offences for which extradition is granted are offences. committed m a .foreign country i—Yes. 10843. Whereas we are dealing with repatriation cases —sending them back for offences committed in this country ?—No; my idea was that persons should only be • excluded or sent back in consequence of bad character "which attached to them when they came here. 10844. Not for bad character here ?—No. I do not iknow that I should object to that, but I thought that might be going too far. 10845. That is what I want .to get. Of course, I sup- pose there would be great difficulties in proving bad • character in the case of people coming over, before they land?—The Commonwealth in Australia turns them out on account of convictions which have happened t since they have come. 10846. So they do in other countries ; but what I want to know is what you would call the undesirable -element, such as, for instance, to take a specific case, the case of that great bank-note forgery which is going - on now, or another recent case, where there was a large number of people concerned in a murder in the East M3nd ?—Yes ; that case came before me. 10847. There was a case in which it was alleged there were more or less organised gangs of offenders or ruf- fians, or whatever you choose to call them, and it • eventually culminated in this murder. Would you - consider those people, who are foreigners, desirable to come into this country?—I do not think those par- ticular ones were desirable to come in, because they were criminals—not because they were foreigners. 10848. I mean criminal foreigners?—Yes. 10849. (f this Act. 3. It shall be the duty of an inspector to apprehend any immigrant upon his arrival at a port whom, he shall .have good cause to suspect of being an undesirable immigrant, and shall thereupon cause him to be taken -as soon as possible before the Oourt. 4. The Board of Trade may cause an information to be laid charging any person at thajt time resident ..in England with the summary offence of being an un* 'desirable immigrant. 5. If it be proved to the satisfaction of the Oourt ;.that any person is an undesirable immigrant it shall make an order adjudging such person to be a pro- hibited immigrant. 6. Any number of immigrants who have arrived by .the same ship and at the same time may be included :in the same charge, information, summons, warrant, ^order, or other proceeding or document. 7. The Court, upon making1 an order, may include .therein any children apparently under the age of 16 who have arrived in England or were residing at the time of the information being laid in the charge of the person adjudged to be a prohibited immigrant. 8. The Court may make an order notwithstanding rthat the person charged, or against whom an informa- tion has been laid, may be a child, lunatic, imbecile, or other person incapable of understanding the nature «of the proceeding. Provided that the Court may allow, if it think fit, any person to give evidence on behalf of such imciapaMe perison, or represent haim either by him- self, by counsel, or solicitor. The Court may clause motice to be given of such charge to any person, whom, upon appearing, the Court may allow so to give evi- dence or repireisenit the defendant. 9. Tlhe Court, iff it think fit, may dispense wiltlh proof on the part of the prbseicultlion1 that the defendant is an undesitfalMe immigrant, and, in the absence of ;proof to the contrary, may make the order. 10. Upon the order being made, it shall be the duty tof the informant to send the prohibited immigrant from England as hereinafter provided'. 11. Where a suspected immigrant has been appre* hended under Section 3, and a plaice of detention is necessary before he can be brought before the Court, the place of detention shall be a shelter, except where he is detained on board a shirp undler Secton 14. Pro- vided that if the inspector, whilst the suspected immi- grant is in his custody, or the keeper, whilst the sus- pected immigrant is in a shelter, consider such detention insufficient for safe custody, may deliver him to a constable, who shall thereupon deal with him as if "he had lawfully apprehended him for a summary offence. 12. Where it is necessary to remand a suspected immigrant in custody, the Court, if it think fit, may deliver the warrant of commitment to prison to the informant. In such case the place of detention shall be a shelter, but if the informant whilst the suspected immigrant is in his custody, or the keeper whilst the suspected immigrant is in the shelter, consider such ^detention insufficient for safe custody, may deliver 'him with the warrant to a constable, who shall there- upon convey him to the prison therein naJmed. 13. Where an order has been made* and a place of -detention is necessary before the prohibited immigrant can be shipped, the place of detention shall be a shelter. Provided thajt upon the making of the order the Court upon the application of the informant may .grant a warrant, committing the prohibited immigrant to prison until the informant shall require him for -shipment, and the Court may, if it think fit, deliver -nuch warrant to the informant. If the informant whilst the prohibited immigrant is in his custody, or the keeper whilst the prohibited immigrant is in a shelter, consider such detention insufficient for j^r Maud. safe custody, he may deliver him with the warrant to a —— constable, who shall convey him to a police station. 15 Deo. 1902. The prohibited immigrant may then be detained' at -— the police station until shipment, or be sent to prison in conformity with the warrant, as the constable in charge of the police station may decide. The prison named in the warrant shall be that to which the defendant would have been »ent had he been remanded. 14. An inspector upon apprehending a suspected immigrant aboard a ship) may in writing require the master there to detain him until the Court shall adjudge whether he is a prohibited immigrant. If in disregard of such requirement the master without good cause shall land, or suffer to land, such suspected immigrant, he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100. 15. Where a suspected immigrant has been appre- hended and taken from the ship on which he has arrived, he shall not be considered to have landed un- less the Court discharge him or the ship sail before an order has been made. 16. Upon the written application of am inspector clearance may be withheld from any ship until ths Court ha® adjudged whether any suspected immigrant who has been a passenger upon the last voyage oi such ship is a prohibited immigrant. The inspector shall give written notice to the master of such ship of such application. If the master without good cause subsequently sail or attempt to sail in spite of such clearance being withheld he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100. 17. Where a prohibited immigrant has not lgnded either in fact or constructively under this Act, the master of the .ship which he shall j>e aboard either in fact or constructively shall convey him ' from England. 18. If after written notice has been given to the master by an inspector requiring him so to convey such prohibited immigrant, the master without good cause shall refuse or wilfully or negligently fail so to convey him, or shall land or cause or1 suffer him to be landed at any place in the United Kingdom, he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100. Upon the written application of an inspector, of which written notice shall be given to the master, clearance may be withheld from such ship so long as such prohibited immigrant is not aboard. 19. Where a prohibited immigrant is not aboard a ship, either in fact or constructively under this Act, the informant shall send him to such foreign place and by such ship as the Board of Trade by general regula- tions or special directions may require. 20. The informant may require by notice in writing the master of any ship belonging to the same owners as the ship on which the prohibited immigrant has arrived in England to convey him to the foreign place named in such notice. If the master without good cause refuse or wilfully or negligently fail so to convey him he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100. The provision with regard to withholding clearance in Section T8 shall apply to this section. 21. If the master of a ship shall convey into England an undesirable immigrant he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100. Provided that if he prove that he did not know, and had no reason to suspect, such person to be an undesir- able immigrant, he shall not be guilty of the said offence. 22. If a Consular officer has good cause to suspect that an undesirable immigrant has embarked, or is about to embark, upon any ship for England, it shall be the Consular officer's duty to give written notice to the master of such fact. If, notwithstanding such notice, the master convey such immigrant, he shall deliver such notice to the inspector at the port in England to which the immi- grant is bound. If the miaster fail to deliver s-uch notice he shall beas® ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. F* Mead, guilty of a summairy offence, and shall be liable to a ? - penalty not exceeding £10. 15 iDec. 1902. The production of such written notice, or a copy --purporting to be signed by the Consular officer, shall in a prosecution under Section 21 be evidence unless the contrary be proved, that such notice was duly given to the master. 23. If any immigrant detained under this Act at-any place or .aboard a ship shall 1 escape or attempt to escape, otr being a prohibited immigrant shall! return to England, he shall be guilty of a summary offence, and shall be liable to six months' imprisonment with hard |albour, or to a penality not exceeding £100. 24. Any person assaulting or obstructing an inspector or informant or any person acting immediately under his direction whilst any of such persons shall be in the execution of 'his duty und'er this Act shall be lialble to the same penalties a© if the person assaulted or ob- structed was a police constable in the execultiion of his duty. 25. The Board of Trade shall provide furnished shelters for the detention of immigrants, proper subsistence for the inmates therein, and vehicles for the purpose of con- veying immigrants to and from the ship, the shelter and die court. 26. The Board of Trade may make regulations with regard to the appointment of inspectors, keepers, and other persons employed in the execution of this Act, the use of the shelters and vehicles, the shipment of pro- hibited immigrants, the delivery by masters of ships of lists of immdgpranifcis aboard with pia/rft'iculaiTis of their cir- cumstances, and for any other purpose necessary for the execution of this Act. Amy breach of such regula- tions shall be a summlairy offence punishable by a penality of not exceeding £10. 27. Upon thei application of the Board of Trade the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs mav make regula- tions for the purposes of this Act for the guidance of Consular officers, and it shall be their duty to comply with such regulations. 28. The Secretary of State for Home Affairs and the Secretary oif State for Foreign. Affairs at any stage may the proceedings on any application. for an order* under Section 5, or with or without conditions may rescind, suspend, or modify such order. 29. Upon the application of the Board of Trade the- Secretary of Sltate foir Home Affairs, if 'he think fit, by general or special! order may constitute any ship or place a petty sessional courthouse, and may make such regulations as may be necessary for giving effect to the said order. 30. All expenses incurred by the Board of Tirade, the Commissioners of Customs, the Secretary of State • for Home Affairs, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, for the purposes of this Act, shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament. 31. In this Act, if not inconsistent with the context^ the following expressions shall have the meanings herein- after respectively assigned to them: — " Suspected immigrant" means a person apprehended under Section 3, or against whom an information has been laid under Section 4. "Prohibited 'immigrant" means a person adjudged:; by order of the Court sio to be under Section 5. " Inspector" means a person appointed under Sec- tion 2. " informant" means the person who has acted under - Section 3, or laid an information under Section 4. " Court" means a petty sessional court. " Shelter " means a place provided under Section 25. " Keeper" means the person appointed to govern shelter, or in his /absence the person appointed then to- perform his duties. " Master" means the master of a ship, or in his- • absence the person highest in authority then in charge. " Order " means an order under Section 5. 32. This Act shall come into operation on the 1st. January, 1904. 33. This Act may be cited for all purpose® as " The Prohibited Immigrant Act, 1903." Mr. Ed gab Harper, called ; and Examined. 10898. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Will you give us your Mr. E. position?—I have been for nearly 25 years in the Harper. service of the London County Council, and their prede- - cessors ; and' before receiving my present appointment I was engaged as a surveyor in the purchase and demoli- tion of large insanitary areas, particularly in the boroughs. classes v2 the population. I have, therefore, whenever possible, dealt - with the smaller areas in the districts where the alien population is thickest, to the exclusion of those, parts« where it forms only a small' proportion of the popu- lation. . Then the first section of the memorandum, which commences here, deals with the proportion of British and alien population. The census returns do • not^ give details with regard to birth places for the • parish areas; and I am, therefore, compelled, in the case of Stepney, to use the registration districts prior to 1901, and the borough area for 1901. The table®- la, lb, and lc show for each registration district in., the census years 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891, and 1901— (a) the total population, (b) the number born in foreign^ countries, and (c) the number of British subjects. As the 1901 census does not give the foreign-born popu- lation for each registration district, I have had to com- plete tables' lb and lc by making an estimate for that year of the number of foreign-horn in each of the regis- tration districts constituting the Borough of Stepney. This estimate was arrived at by apportioning the total-' increase from 1891 to 1901 between the four districts • in the same proportion as the actual increases in the period 1881-91. Following the growth of the foreign- born population since 1861, it will be seen that the - increase is slight until 1881, and that it has been greatly accelerated in the last two decennial periods. In the borough of Stepney, the foreign-born popula- tion increased between 188CL and 1801 at the rate of" 101*8 per cent., and between 1891 to 1901 at die rate* of 68-24 per cent. In Bethnal Green the figures are-9 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 361 smaller, as the aliens "are maiimly confined to one part of the borough, buit the percentages are larger, and they form an interesting illustration of the beginnings of the ailien difficulty in a fresh area. The percentages -of increase in the alien population are 94*13 per cent, for 1881-91, and no less than 158*2 per cent, in 1891- 1901. Almost concurrently with these increases in the foreign-bom popufllaitdoin, the British population of the two boroughs has begun to decrease, as shown in table "lc. Butt, as the growth of foreign-born popiU'Mion is proceeding at a much more rapid rate, the total popu- lation continues to increase. (See italble la.) Taking the two fe'oaloniiglhs together for the last decenniuun (1891- 1901), the following results appear : —The foreign-born populafbion has increased 72*94 per cent; the British- born population has- decreased 2*65 per cent. ; the total population has increased 3*58 per cent. ; the number of inhabited houses has decreased 8*95 per cent., or from 49,824 to 45,367. 10906. When you say the foreign-born population, is that in the two boroughs ?—Yes; I have got them Mr. J?, separated in the table. Harper 10907. The inhabited houses have decreased?—Yes, —~ from 49,824 to 45,367. But I d'o not think itoo much 15 Dec; 1902. stress, however, should be laid on this later figuire, s. " 1 owing to the fact that the census definition of an in- i " 1 ' habited house would cause each block of model clwel- ^ lings to be reckoned as one house. 10908. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Your point there is ' that the houses-, although fewer, are larger, and accom- modate more people ?—They might ibe. 10909. And are, m maaiy cases?—And are in many cases, because of the new blocks of model dwellings. 10910. iSimiailler houses are replaced by large dwel- ling's ?—Yes. 10911. (Chairman.) Will you now refer to the tables you have mentioned ?—la is the total population, and lb is the allien population. (The witness banded in the following tables): — Table XXXY. Total population. Metropolitan Boiouglis and Registration Districts. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. 1901. Stepney: Whiteehapel ------ 78,187 75,552 70,435 73,594 78,768 St. George-in-the-East - 48,891 48,052 47,157 45,795 49,068 Stepney ------- 56,572 57,690 58,543 57,376 57,937 Mile-end Old Town - - 73,064 93,152 105,613 107,592 112,827 256,714 274,446 281,748 284,357 298,600 Bethnal Green...... 105,101 120,104 126,961 128,929 129,680 Table XXXY (a). Number of persons born in foreign countries, excluding naturalised, and british subjects. Metropolitan Boroughs and Registration Districts. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. 1901. ' | Stepney: 1 Whiteehapel.....- - 6,222 8,130 9,660 17,961 29,188(a) N St. George-in-the-East - 2,451 2,955 2,765 7,433 13,746(a) Stepney -...... ! 829 880 708 1,193 1,849(a) Mile-end Old Town..... ' 1,541 2.065 2,865 5,697 9,527(a) 11,043 | 14,030 15,998 32,284 54,310 Bethnal Green - - - - - i 479 825 925 1,796 4,634 (a) These figures have been obtained by apportioning the actual increase for the whole borough in 1891-1901 on the basis of the actual increases in each registration district in the period 1881-1891 (a) These figures have been obtained by apportioning the actual increase for the whole borough in 1891-1901 on the basis of the actual increases in each registration district in the period 1881-1891 Table XXXY (b). Number of British subjects. Metropolitan Boroughs and Registration Districts. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. 1901. Stepney: . Whiteehapel ------ 71,965 67,422 60,775 55,633 49,580 St. George-in the-East - 46,440 45,097 44,392 38,362 35,322 Stepney....... 55,743 56,810 57,835 56,183 56,088 Mile-end Old Town ----- 71,523 91,087 102,748 101,895 103,300 245,671 260,416 265,750 252,073 244,290 Bethnal Green - - - - - - 104,622 119,279 126,036 127,336 125,046 6144. Z z 6144. Z z362^ w JfOYAL COMMISSION" ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : H«rp*r- Table XXXVII. Movement of the British population. 15 Dec. 1992. Population 1891 (Estimated). Population 1901 (Estimated). Decrease. Natural Increase. Total Emigration. Stepney : Whitechapel - St. George-in-the-East - Stepney - - - - •Mile-end Old Town..... 53,860 37,913 56,124 101,898 44,186 33,593 55.924 101,728 9,674 4,320 200 330 Incr. I 9,883 6,157 4,714 17,593 1 19,557 10,477 4,914 17,263 249,295 235,431 13,864 28,347 52,211 Bethnal Green - l i 127,202 124,633 2,569 18,368 20.937 10912. Your table la first gives the total population of Stepney ?—-Stepney Borough, dividing it between the registration districts of Whiteohapel, St. GeoirgeVin- the-East, Stepney, and Mile End Old Town. 10013. Take Stepney Borough -first. In 1661 the popu- lation was 256,000?—Yes. 10914. In 1871 dt was 274,000, in 1881 it was 281,000, and 'iai 1891 it was 204,000. That, of course, is a very email increase compared with London generally ?—It is not a large increase, compared! with London generally. 10915. Then, in 1901 it wais 298,000. Then, in B'eitih- nail Green in 1861 it is 105,000; in 1871, 120,000 ; in 1881, 126,000; in 1891, 129,000; and then it is sta- tionary in 1901. Again, it. is not a very great increase ? [ should think some parts of London have increased more than that ?—Yes, much more than that. 10916. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then we come to the next table, lb. There you deal with the number of people born in foreign countries, excluding naturalised and British subjects ?—Yes. 10917. We might get the total number. In Stepney in 1861 there were 11,000; in 1871, 14,000; in 1881, 15,000; in 1891, 32,000 ; and in 1901, 54,000. 10918. (Chairman.) Will you just analyse that? That great increase is* principally in Whitechapel and St. GeorgeVin-rthe-E'aist ?—That is so ; in the last two de- cenniad periods especially. 10919. They seem to have centralized there principally in Whiitechapel and Sit. George's-in^the-Eaist ?—Yes. 10920. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And Mile End Old Town is beginning to till up, and it has increased nine times since 1861. Then, in Bethnal Green in 1861 there were 479 ; in 1871, 825; in 1081, 925 ; in 1891. 1,700; and in 1901, 4,600. Then, table 1c give® the total of British subjects. In 1861, for the borough of Stepney, there were 245,000; in 1871, 260,000; in 1881, 265,000 ; in 1891, 252,000 ; and in 1901, 244,000 ? —Yes. In that case you have an actual decrease since 1881. 10921. (Chairman.) In thait period of 40 yearis, you iuwe a decreiase of British subjeicts ?—Yes. 10922. In Stepney; but not in Bethnd. Green ?—Yes. 10923. (Mr. Vallance.) In table lb, are they the "last figures, or the estimated figures ?—They are estimated figures; that is to say, the total of 54,000 is not esti- mated, but its sub-division between the four registra- tion districts is estimated. 10924. (Chairman,,) The rest of your last table 1© is only deducting lb from la ?—Yes, my Lord. 10925. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I will give the Bethnal Green figures as well. In Bethiial Green, on that same table, lc, the number of British subjects are 104,000 in 1861; in 1871, 119,000; in 1881, 126,000; in 1891, 127,000; and in 1901, 125,000 ?—-Yes. 10926. Then the last table, Id, shows the movement of the population ?—That I have hardly reached in my evidence. I have practically converted tables la, lb, and lc into percentages on page 5 of the memorandum. I do not know whether it would be desirable to give those percentages. 10927. (Chairman.) I am content with the figures, they are very expressive, unless any member of the Commission wishes to have the percentages?1—Now, I wish to make a suggestion. All the preceding figures reckon as aliens only those of foreign birth and un- naturalised, and include children born in London of foreign-born parents as British population. There are no means of exactly distinguishing such children; but they should obviously be included for this purpose in the same category as their parents. I have, there- fore, endeavoured to estimate the number of aliens (using the word alien in its broader sense) in the year 1901, by applying the natural increase rate (that is the excess of births over deaths) for the period of 1891-1901, to the number of aliens of foreign birth, as enumerated in 1881 and 1891. 10928. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Before you go on, what basis of birth rate over death rate have you taken there—the all London in the all Stepney, or the foreign districts only?—The all London. 10929. (Chairman.) In the 1861 and 1871 returns are these foreign-bom children included in the numbers ?— I think' not, my Lord. 10930. You are not quite comparing like with like? —I think it would not be safe to go back so far a® 1871, and, therefore, any comparison that I shall be aible to make on this hypothesis will be limited to the last 20 years. 10931. I think you are quite right in taking these children as results of the aliens coming over here, and counting them, but when we come to look at that in- crease, it is subject to that observation?—Yes, un- doubtedly, my Lord. 10932. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The period you com- pared is 1891-1901. You have taken the 10 years' period before that, have you ryot?—Yes, I started at 1881. 10933. What I want to get at specially is that you have taken the birth rate for London generally?—Yes. 10934. Not for Stepney, or for the foreign districts ? —No. 10935. But also in this, I suppose, you allow for thi® tf^sideration, that the foreign birth rate is admittedly much higher and the death raite much lower than for London generally?—I have not allowed for that, and, therefore, my figures are on the safe side. 10936. They are inside the mark?—Yes. 10937. (Chairman.) Have you, in the 1881 and 1891 figures, included in your list of aliens in Taible B the English-born children of aliens?—'Not in Tables la,, lb, and lc. I am proceeding now, and shall submit to you in a moment an amended table, in which they are in- cluded, but only for the years 1891 and 1901. 10938. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you the materials for giving the figures as to the number of English-born children of foreign parents ?—I have no further material beyond this, that I have applied the natural rate of increase of excess of births over deaths to the number of admitted aliens recorded by the Census in 1881 and 1891, so that I get the children of such persons, as well as sueh persons themselves, up to a certain point. I doMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 363 not think my figures are complete, but at any rat© they are m/uch more nearly accurate as representing the total number of people of this character than the Census figures would be. 10939. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I will deal with that a little bit closer directly 1—I have a table in the body of my. memorandum ,at page 7. There I show first the total population in 1901, and in the next column, which is sub-divided, the njumiber of aliens, first, as enumerated by thje Registrar-General' in 1901, and, secondly, as estimated by me for this purpose. You will see that in the Borough of Stepney the number actually enumerated in the Census, 54,000, is increased to 63,000. In Bethnal Green the nnim/ber enumerated is 4,600, which is increased to 5,000. ,10940. (Chairman.) Will you explain that ?—That is simply the result in figures of the process I have just described. 10941. We have got your figure there, as compared to the Census figures ?—My figures are based originally on the Census figures of 1881 and 1891. I have taken the 1881 figures, and have applied to them the average rate of increase of births over deaths for the 20 years to 1901. Then I have taken the difference between the 1881 Census figures and the 1891 Census figures, and I have applied the same rate to that difference for the last 10 years, and adding the two together I get the result. 10942. Where does the foreign immigration come in in this calculation? That may be 20,000 or 2,000?— That is enumerated in 1901. 10943. The Census figures?—Yes, that is the basis of everything. The 54,000 are enumerated, but I have added simply the natural increase. 10944. It- is again the question of the children ?—Yes. (Mr. Fallance.) I)oes your figure of 63,169 apply ex- clusively to. foreign-born children ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, it applies to the total population- plus children enumerated as British sub- jects in the Census, but enumerated by Mr. Harper as aliens. 10945. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) This number of aliens, if their rate of increase was the average one, the same as all London, would have had so many children during these 20 years ?—Yes. I need not trouble the Commis- sioners with tlie figures, but that has, of course, a serious effect on the number of British subjects. 10946. (Chairman.) Have you compared the one with the other ?-—Yes. 10947. (Major Evans-Gordon.) If we go on beyond that,: you have taken the average birth rate for the whole of London ?—The average rate of natural in- crease. 10948. I do not know whether you have read the evidence that has been given before us by the Registrar- General ?—Yes. 10949. I want to point out to you what he said on this particular point. His evidence was : " In order to esti- mate the discrepancy, I have made an- endeavour to estimate the discrepancy, if foreign children, the chil- dren of foreign parents, were enumerated as foreigners," and he said how much you would have to add oil to that account, and he made a calculation in a^certain test district in St. George's-in-the-East, and his evidence was that in one district, where 1,038 schedules signed by foreigners, representing 3,647 Per~ sons, were dealt with, it was found that there were 1,590 children under 15 years of age born in this country, to all intents and purposes foreigners, who were not so classified, and 238 children above the age of 15 in a similar position, making 1,820 in all, that is to say, that if in this district foreign children were enumerated as foreigners, the foreign population in that part of London would be 50 per cenjt. higher than the Census shows it. On those test- schedules it made a difference of 50 per cent. ?—Yes. 10950. I want to point that out to you, because yon, by taJdngthe natural increase in London, generally, take the increase, which is very much below what in one test district in St. George's-in-the-East has proved to be the case. (Chairman.) How did he know whether those children werie foreigners ? {Major Evans-Gordon.) They were on the schedules enumerated as English people, but he took them out. 6141. \Chairman.) It is an enormous proportion. You have jr* so many men and so many women, and to say that Harper. they should have 1,500 children born in this country is - a very liarge proportion. 15 Dec. 1002. 10951. (Major Evans-Gordon.) If you refer to Mr. McLeod's evidence, you will see he stated ih that test district it would represent a difference of 50 per cent. In your figures you take, for instance, in Stepney 34,582, as against 29,188 as enumerated, and you make a difference there of 5,394 for the whole Borough of }j Stepney?—Yes. 10952. The difference between 29,188 and 34,582 is 5,394?—Yes, in Whitechapel. 10953. Then in St. George's you take 15,475 as your figures ?—Yes. 10954. And 13,746 as the Census figure?—Yes. 10955. That leaves 2,729 ?—I have no doubt that arith- metic is right. 10956. Then I deduct the 1,820 which the Registrar- General found in one district, so that leaves a total in- crease of only 1,909 children for the whole of St. George's, which would be very very small?—It would. 10957. My whole point is that your figures are cer- tainly very much inside the mark?—I should not like to say they are very much inside the mark, but I have been anxious1 that they should be well inside the mark, dealing with a case of this kind. I do think there is a danger in applying a rate obtained in on© district only over a very much larger area. 10958. (Chairman.) We! may iskip the percentages. With regard to the number of British subjects, what is your estimate—is that bringing in the children again ? —That is simply deducting my amended alien figures from the total population. 10959. That is your estimated deduction?—Yes, my Lord. 10960. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then I think we may go on with your statement?—It is, of course, difficult to state with any degree of exactness what proportion, if any, of the increase of the alien population included in the above estimate emigrated to other districts. The following table shows the net movement of 'the whole population from those particular districts during the period 1891-1901. The figures relate to the districts as constituted prior to the London Govern- ment Act, 1899. In that table, dealing with the figures of the Borough of Stepney, the excess of births over deaths for the last 10 years was 44,571, but the actual increase in the total population shown by the census was only 13,190. Therefore, omitting percentages again, there was shown a net outward movement of populaition of 31,381. The corresponding figures for Bethnal Green are the excess of births over deaths, 18,600 ; actual increase, 60Q, showing a net outward movement of population of 18,000. 10961. (Chairman.) As regards this movement, would you know whether they were aliens or the English sub- jects who were moving?—I am endeavouring to throw some light on that subject as I proceed. Erom this it - is seen that the actual increase of population in no case amounts to as much as half the excess of births over deaths, so that there must 'be a considerable exodus from these districts. Column 5 of the table * shows the net extent of this exodus. In -Stepney it amounts to 31,381 persons, and1 in Bethnal Green 18,057 persons. The census returns show that the number of aliens born in foreign countries have in the same period actually increased by 22,026 and 2,838 respectively. 10962. Where are these aliens, in Stepney ?—In Step- ney and Bethnal Green. There are 22,000 in Stepney and 2,838 in Bethnal Green. It is therefore clear that the gross amount of migration from the district was much greater than that shown in the table. From the fact that the foreign-born population continues to increase by leaps and bounds, while the British-born population is decreasing, it is safe to infer that the alien immigration for the most part presses out the purely British population ; and I have made a further calculation of the probable amount of migration from the district on the part of the British population. This is m Table 1 d. The first column shows the 1891 population with the children added as estimajted bv me. In Stepney it gives a total of 249,000. In 1901, esti- mated in the same way, there are 235,000. These are figures for the British population, so that the bringing z z 2364 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. E. of alien children into the account shows a much greater reduction in the British population, namely, 13,800, than the census figures show. 10963. That is the general population ?—No; J ?? Cable 1 d is the British population. ....... 10964. You have had the population of 1891 esti- mated?—Yes ; but the main heading of the table is British population. 10965. In British population, what do you estimate there?—The British population is isimply what remains after deducting the estimate of the alien population from the total census figures. 10966. In fact, you do not find anything in the British population, and therefore you take something out of .the general population which you have esti- mated?—Yes, my Lord. I compare that decrease of 13,800 in the British population with the natural in- crease which is shown by the excess of births over deaths. That, would be 38,300 ; so that the total emi- gration of the British population from Stepney Borough would be that 38,000 natural increase plus the 13,800 decrease in the British population. 10967. I may be wrong ; but as against the theor} you are setting up, is there not an admission that when you only take the increase of births over deaths 70^ are again leaving out of consideration the abnormal flow in o'f the alien immigration?—I hardly see hov; that can be, because I am attempting to deal with what I conceive to be the true, or approximation to the wnie, figures of the British population. I am not dealing with the population of the borough as a whole. I find 249,000 British subjects in the borough in 1891, and I say if they had all stopped there, there would be 38,347 more. 10968. You are confining it now to the British popu- lation ?—Yes ; but, as a matter of fact, there are 13,800 less. So I say the conclusion is highly probable that 52,000 British people went out of the district during the period. 10969. As to the population of Bethnal Green, you know, comparatively, until the last few years you had very few aliens there ?-—Yes, my Lord ; that is so. 10970. Your observations as to the natural Increase . of 18,000 in Bethnal Green, where there has been no driving out by alien immigration to that extent, is a very strong fact. How do you account for that natural increase not being arrived at?—From the fact that Bethnal Green has for many years past been com- pletely built upon, and is now undergoing the usual process of residential property being cleared away to make room for commercial property ; so that, while {lie population undoubtedly grows according to the natural rate of increase, it cannot all find accommoda- fion there, and has to emigrate. 10971. Then you do get that emigration you are speaking of, out of Bethnal Green, not on account of the reasons you have given, but from another cause?— Yes. 10972. Not alien immigration?—Yes. 10973. Are you quite sure that this cause does not exist in Stepney, too ?—I believe it does, but I do not believe to quite the same extent. 10974. You must take it into consideration?—Yes. 10975. This is very useful, but, iso far as it goes, there is this observation to be made—that over the whole of this district this change in the district has taken place that has driven out British population ?— Pes. 10976. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is always in operation, but it is neutralised by the fact of the in- creased size of the houses that are put up ?—Yes. To complete it, shall I give the same figures for Bethnal Green ? The estimated British population in 1891 is 127,000 ; in 1901 it is 124,000, showing a decrease of 8,500 compared with the natural increase that might fcave been expected of 18,300, and showing a total migration of British subjects from Bethnal Green of 20,900 in the period. The census figures show a, net alien immigration of 22,026 in Stepney and 2,838 in Bethnal Green, while Table 1 d shows a net British emigration of 52,211 and 20,936 respectively. Thus It will be iseen that the emigration of population neces- sarily ' arising . fro^^ a natural increase of the existing inhabitants is unnecessarily augmented by the immi- gration of aliens, and that practically the whole brunt oi these two forces is borne by the Britio'h portion of the population. Then I add, as a matter of interest* that on the County Council Boundary Street site, in the Borough of Bethnal Green, there were, in June, 1901, 202 alien tenants out of a total of 1,034, and that notwithstanding the fact that it is the practice of the County Council, other things being equal, to prefer a British subject to an alien tenant. 10977. {Chairman.) It is very small compared with the same comparison in Stepney ?—This area, my Lord, is in Bethnal Green. 10978. {Major Evans-Gordon.) In other words, these highly costly buildings on the Boundary Street ( area are being partly used, at all events, for the accommoda- tion of houseless people from abroad?—I cannot say that; they are not immediately from abroad. 10979. Of foreign origin, shall we say?—Of foreign origin. 10980. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) The rents are pretty high in the Boundary Street area ?—Yes ; the rents range from 2s. 6d. to 3s. per room per week. 10981. {Chairman.) Apart from this immediate alien immigration there has been for a long time a great many aliens in the East End of London?—Yes. 10982. The Spitalfields and Petticoat Lane people have been here for years?—Yes, forbears; I have known them 25 and 30 years ago. 10983. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you deal with "increased rents in recent years" 1—In connection with their housing and rating work the London County Council have, from time to time, made inquiries in various localities as to the scale of rents paid for tene- mental property. Most of these inquiries have been made under my direction, and I have extracted those dealing with this particular area. From these extracts I have prepared a series of tables summarising the results of these inquiries, which were made by means of personal visits to houses taken haphazard with a view of arriving at a rough average for the district. The tables show for each street the number of houses visited, the number of rooms contained therein, and whether the landlords and tenants are British or alien. Where the information has been ascertained the number of houses which have changed ownership since 1896 is given, as change of ownership is a frequent cause of rent raising. ^ The oases where rents have not been raised since 1890, and where rents have been raised once, or (if known) more than once since 1890, and the average increases in rent per week per room are also shown. 10984. With regard to the change of ownership, do you know with anything approaching accuracy whether the change of ownership you refer to is the change from native to foreign ownership?—In the majority of cases that no doubt is so. 10985. I do not think we need go in detail into those tables you refer to, because you have given us the tables ?—I have given you the tables. I have rather aimed at bringing out a general average result which may be relied upon as distinct from individual cases which have been given in evidence before the Com- mission. Table 2 (a) deals with 26 streets situated in the parishes of Christchurch, Spitalfields, White- chapel, and Mile-end New Town, and shows that out of 186 houses visited rents have been raised since 1890 in 121 cases, or 65 per cent., by amounts varying fr^m an average per room per week of 2d. to Is. 5Jd., the average increase being 7^d. per room per week. 10986. That is 65 per cent. ?—65 per cent, was the percentage of cases where rents have been raised. An average increase of rent of 7^d. per room per week. 10987. Before we leave that point, have similar rises of rents, to your knowledge, occurred in other parts of London?—There are other parts of London in which increases of rent have occurred, but to nothing like the same extent as in this district I am dealing with. 10988. {Chairman.) The greater the congestion the greater the rise ?—That, broadly, my lord, is the result. Then Table 2 (b) deals with 22 streets, situated in tihe parish of Mile-end Old Town, and shows that out of 145 houses visited rents have been raised since 1890 in 107 cases, or 74 per cent., by amounts varying from an average per room per week of 2d. to 3s. 7d., the average increase being lid., -and that in at least 45 cases the rents had been raised more than once since 1890. TableMTNFTES OF EVIDENCE. 366 X (c) deals with 22 streets situated in tlie S. W. cornex ^of the Borough of Bethn«,l Green, and shows that out > of 67 houses visited rents had been raised since 1890 in 50 oases, or 75 per cent., by amounts varying from an average per room per week of l^d. to Is. 9Jd., the . average increase being 5^d. per room per week, and. that in at least four cases the rents had been increased, more than once since 1890. These figures would not represent an average for the whole borough. 10989. Is there any change .at all in the nature of tihe ■tenements, such as sanitary improvements or any ex- penditure by the landlord?—That is frequently made .a reason for raising the rent, but the increase of rent is -quite out of all proportion to any money that may be * expended. 10990. Something must be done as time progresses. There is always an advance in these classes of houses in the sanitary arrangements ?—'There is something of (that kind, but, as a matter of fact, the general case with regard to this class of property is that the land- Mr. E\ lord spends just as little as he possibly can, and there Ifctvpe/r^ comes a time when he has to make a considerable out-- lay. That outlay ought not to be classed as capital Deer 1902. outlay on which he should have interest. It is really an outlay to make good his laches in the past. 10991. It is ordinary upkeep?—It is ordinary tip- keep. Then Table 2 (d) deals with 19 streets; situate 1 in the parish of St. George-in -the-East, and shows that out of 210 houses visited rents had been raised since 1890 in 207 cases, or 98*6 per cent, by amounts varying from an average per room per week of 3^d. to 2s. 7d., the average increase being Is. 4d. per room per week, and that in at least 118 cases the rents had been raised more than once since 1890. The average increase of rent per room per week for the whole of the area visited was ll^d. (The further examination of the witness was adjourned to Thursday next, the 18th instant.) TWENTY SEVENTH DAY. Tiiesday, December 16th, 1902, present : The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. The Right Hon. Lord James op Hereford {Chairman). Henry Norman, Esq.. m.p. William Yallance, Esq. Mr. .James Brown, J.P.* called ; and Examined. 10992. (Mr. Yallance.) You have been in business, .1 think, as a brick manufacturer, for some 20 years in Whiteehapel ?—I have. 10993. Your offices are in Whiteehapel ?—Yes, in ■Durward Street. 10994. And your business takes yt u very frequently mto Whiteehapel 1—Every day. 1 10995. You are also a Justice of the Peace for the ^County of London ?—I am, and a member of the Metro- politan Asylums Board. 10996. You have been Chairman of the Whiteehapel Board of Guardians for some 10 years ?—Yes. 10997. And up to the time of the passing of the "London Government Act, 1899, you were Chairman ■ of the Union Assessment Committee ?—I was Chairman -of the Assessment Committee for about eight years. J998. That is a statutory committee Yes. 10999. You have also early recollections of the con- ditions of Whiteehapel and Spitalfields ?—As a boy I stayed with friends in what is now called Brushfield Street, but which was then called Union Street (I think it is in Spitalfields Parish), and I was very familiar with the parts immediately around it; Petticoat Lane, for instance, and Brick Lane. This was about 1840 to 1850 # 11000. Would you just compare the condition of that •district, Brick Lane and so forth, when you knew it hi your early days and now.?—At the time I knew it the alien people, or, as I called them in those days, the J ewdsh people, were located principally, so far as I can remember, in Petticoat Lane and extended out as far as Brick Lane. Of course there were some isolated cases beyond that, but in that neighbourhood was the chief aggregation of the Jews in those days. 11001. Had the improvement of Commercial Street beeii made during your time ?—I do not think it was commenced in those days at all, nor do I think Middlesex Street existed. 11002. (Chaii man) Whereabouts does Commercial .Street run %—Commercial Street runs from White- * chapel High Street to Spitalfields Market. • ^ ^ *11 Stepney ?—In the Borough of Stepney, Mr. J, m the Poor Law7 area of Whiteehapel. ' Brown, j.p. 11004. (Major Evans Gordon.) It runs north and 17 south les, almost. ^ 11005. (Mr. Yallance.) During the last 20 years you have been able to observe closely the Jewish people, or I will call them the foreign element ?—I have very closely. 11006. What is the impression you have gained as to these aliens ? Speaking quite generally, my impres- sion of the Jewish people or of the aliens is very favour- able. They are thrifty, quiet, industrious people. • ^he time you have been in business in Whiteehapel you have taken a good deal of interest in public and social affairs affecting the district 1_Yes some 10 years ago I carried on a gymnasium for girls! I had at that time a large warehouse free, and I devoted it to the purpose of carrying on a gymnasium for girls working in the factories in the neighbourhood, and I carried it on for several years, attending twice a week myself. 11008. And in that you were assisted by ladies from various parts of London ?—Ladies from all parts of London. 11009. Have you ever had any complaint from these ladies or others of being molested or insulted in coming to and fro ?—>voi the slightest, and we used to be in Whiteehapel crossing the street and going over to St. Mary's Station up to between 10 and 11 o'clock at night, with the result that I never had a solitary com- plaint from these ladies of being insulted in any way or shape. 11010. (Chairman.) When was that About 10 years ago. 11011. (Mr. Vallance.) You carried on that work for some four or five years ?—I did. 11012. What opinion have you formed as to the habits and conduct of the alien people ?—Of course it is a very general question , speaking generally I have no fault whatever to find. I have passed through White- ehapel streets both back and front at all times up to a.366 MOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : '.Mr. J. comparatively late hour at night, and I have never seen j.p, anything to excite fear of any kind or sort. I had thr ^P1*688*011 some years ago that the Jewish people ami ce. 1902. aliens were of somewhat dirty habits, but after the evidence that has been given here, especially by m> friend Mr. Da vies, of Spitalfields, I cannot for a moment sustain the idea that they are any dirtier than other people. The only piece of strong evidence I had upon that was given me some few months ago by a gentleman who owns property immediately facing Spitalfields Market, and he hired a house, and shop there, using the lower floor, and letting off the upper floor. He has told me time and again that when these aliens first arrive some of them have come into his property and they seemed to be absolutely unconscious of the value of any sanitary regulations, but after a month or two had passed they became just as amenable and just as careful and clean as other people. I find, speaking to persons who are conversant with these people personally, that as a rule when they first come there is a great want of cleanliness and care in these matters, but later on they become equal to and in some cases the superiors of our own people. 11013. Have you found them to be a thrifty, sober, . and industrious people ?—Extremely thrifty and ex- tremely sober Strange to say in all the years I have been in Whitechapel I have never seen a drunken Jew —not one. 11014. Have you formed a good or bad opinion as to their domestic qualities in the relations of husbands and fathers ?—I have never seen anything in their behaviour, especially of the girls to whom I have referred, that in the slightest degree tells of immodesty or indecency of any kind—quite the contrary. 11015. Ha ve you seen any tendency to aggressiveness on the part of these people?—None whatever. Some' years ago there was a rather extensive strike among the tailors, all composed, I believe, in those days of im- migrants from Russia and elsewhere, and they held their meetings in the open space immediately opposite my owfi place of business, and frequently as I passed out I stopped to listen to their speeches. I am afraid I did not under- / j ' Stand much of them because they were all made in - ~ Yiddish, but I was struck with the quietude of the * 5':; people, and the way they listened to the arguments and .......^ accepted the speeches that were made ; there was no rioting of any sort; that is about six or seven years , ag°- 11016. Going back for a moment to the district itself and not the people, you have had special experience I think as to the change which has been effected in certain parts of the district with regard to safety and good order. Have you anything to say about Thrawl Street %—When I was a lad there were certain streets that an uncle, with whom I used to live, absolutely forbade that I should go down. 'It is difficult 60 years after to remember exactly what those streets were, but they were in the district where Thrawl Street and Flower and Dean Street now exist. 1101T. Am I right in saying that the new thorough- tare of Commercial Street has been cut through those streets ?—It is very close to them ; I do not know whether it is quite cut through those streets, but it is just in that district. What has taken place has been that both Thrawl Street and Flower and Dean Street have been absolutely rebuilt ; the old property has been cleared away, and the whole place has been filled with new block dwellings. 11018. Now I deal with your experience as regards the impression made by the alien population on the pauperism of your district: have you anything to say with regard to the work of the Jewish Board of Guardians 1—I have been, as you know, on the White- chapel Board of Guardians for some 12 to 13 years, and the impression made even before I was Chairman of the Board, and which has been confirmed since, is that ' the Jewish Board of Guardians almost entirely relieve us of any burden with regard to the alien population, except in certain one or two directions. 11019. {Chairman.) Does that extend to English- born Jews as well —Yes, my Lord. 11020. It is more-religion than race ?—Yes, it refers absolutely to all Jewish people. 11021. (Mr. Vallance.) It is more religion than raoe as regards belief 2—-It is more religion than race. I should like to say that my use of the words " alien " and " Jew " and " foreigner " are really synonymous. One in ordinary conversation uses these words inter- changeably. 11022. (officers make one distinction—it is impossible for them to go into the various phases, but they note persons who have been iri England over three years, and under three years, and speaking quite roughly the numbers are about half and half—not quite. 11039. They would be all foreigners'?—Yes, all 'foreigners. 11040. {Mr. Vallance.) To make it a little clearer may I ask this question : is it not a fact that the relieving •officers in submitting their report or their application ■to the Board of Guardians in regard to every poor -applicant—and it turns out that he or she is a foreigner —is it not the fact the relieving officer is required to enter the length of time during which the person has r-been in England, and where he or she came from'?— That is so. 11041. And therefore, generally, may it not be said "that those figures do not include the English - born Jew ?—I should think not the English born Jew. May I explain here what has come to our notice at the Board many, perhaps hundreds of times'? We often ask the question; " Why do these men come here for medical relief ; why do not they go to their clubs, or to their Jewish people to get this help ? " The answer almost invariably is : they come to get a medical order to go to the doctor that we send them to, in order that they may carry that certificate to their own Jewish Board of Guardians, in order to get relief and help from them. 11042. (Chairman.) Not medical ?—Not medical. They come and pull out that paper as a proof that they .are ill, and it is used before the Jewish Board of Guardians to get help from them. 11043. (Major Evans Gordon.) Help of another kind ?—Help of another kind. 11044. (Chairman.) Are these people ill, or do they pretend to be ill in order to get relief?—I should not like to say they are not ill; I think they are a little ill. . 11045. {Mr. Vallance.) With reference to the morality oi the Jews, Avill you say how many confinements there were in your infirmary last year?—I have had those figures taken out; last year there were 137 confinements in our infirmary, and out of these 34 were foreigners, and the rest were English people. The next [figure bears on this question that Mr. Vallance lias asked me. The illegitimate children born in White- ^hapel Infirmary last year were 93, and out of these 23 were Jewish. 11046. (Chairman.) That is about the same pro- portion, is it not ?—Just about it, I should think. 11047. As near as possible ?—Yes. 11048. (Mr. Vallance.) Are you quite sure about your figure of 93 ?—Those are the figures given to me. 11049. Perhaps you will be able to verify that later on ?—Yes. (Major Evans Gordon.) Have you any reason to doubt these figures, Mr. Vallance ?. 11050. (Mr. Vallance.) Yes, I have rather. They do not agree with the figures I have ?—I think 93 is cor- rect. 11051. It wants checking. What is the effect upon the lunatic chargeability ?—I presume all Jewish and foreign lunatics and imbeciles come to us. I amfnot aware that the Jewish Board of Guardians have any means of dealing, with them. It is very ^difficult to'obtain any figures of that. I have got the ..figures for^ the imbecile asylums ^exactly, but the figures for the lunatics I find a difficulty about. All I have Mr. J. been able to do is to take the list which I hold in my Brown, j.p. hand, and I have gone through it and judged from the > —.i1" names, and I am tolerably familiar with the foreign Dec. names. The figures I give you are obtained in. that way. They may not be quite correct. I would not like to vouch for them, but out of a total number of lunatics and imbeciles in our asylums last year of 501, about 150 were foreigners. 11052. As near as you can estimate out of 500 lunatics and imbeciles chargeable to the Whitecliapel Union, 150 are Jewish ?—Yes. # ; 11053. Or rather, people with foreign names?--- Yes. 11054. (Chairman.) Do the Jewish Board of Guardians take charge of lunatics ?—No, we take all these, T presume. 11055. (Mr. Vallance.) Going back to the question of the workhouse, do the Jewish inmates as a rule remain there long ?—No. It is a very curious fact that these people come into the workhouse, and very soon they are taken out again, either by their owe friends or by the Jewish people as a whole. 11056. Do you find many deserted cases in a work- house, that is, of wives and children of deserting husbands and fathers ? — Not very many. I would like to give you a few facts that I have ascertained. For instance, a few weeks ago the master of the work- house told me that four children were deserted by father and mother. We took those children at once. They were brought to us either by the police or by some friends. A few days after, a Jewish minister—(our master always informs the Jewish minister the moment this sort of thing happens)—came to look after these children, and he found they belonged to Holland. He immediately got the means of sending them off, and he took them and paid their passage back to Holland to the people to whom they belonged. 11057. Do you happen to know how many deserted wives and children there are in the workhouse now of the alien class ?—On Friday last there was one. 11058. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Howt had those children that you have referred to come here ?—They were proba- bly the children of aliens who were here, and perhaps had been living here for some time, and they were deserted both by their father and mother. 11059. You do not know who had brought them here? —No, we have no means of ascertaining that. 11060. (Mr. Vallance.) You say there is only one case of desertion in the workhouse now ?—At this moment there is one deserted wife with five children in the workhouse. 11061. (Chairman.) How does that compare with the British-born subject ?—I have not that figure, but through the whole of last year we only received five deserted wives, with 18 children, and the master informs me that as a rule they stop with us six or eight weeks. I should like to say that I remember a deputation from the Jewish people coming to ask us to be good enough to deal with any deserted wives they might send to us, and for this reason : there are Jewish men who think they can better themselves, and they say to their wives, " You stop here with the children, and the Jewish Board of Guardians will take care of you; I will go to Canada or New York, or somewhere else, and make a new home." The Jewish Board of Guardians some seven years ago found this was beginning to press on them rather severely. Of course, it is collusion between the wife and the husband, and they asked us to take any case that might be sent to us, because the Jewish people naturaiiy would avoid coming into our work house if they could, because of the difficulties of their religous life, and so on. 11062. (Mr. Vallance.) To sum up the statistical portion of your evidence, will you be good enough to state the number of adults and children in the infirmary workhouse and chargeable to the Union at the Norwood School ?—The Norwood School is a certified Jewish school for orphans, and any Jewish orphan child who becomes chargeable to the rates is sent there, and the Guardians pay at the rate of 6s. a week. We have at this moment 14 children in the Jewish school at Norwood, Yhe total number that we have at the present moment,368 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : jl£r. j. in the infirmary, the workhouse, and the Norwood Brown, J.v. school, is 58, That is 58 out of 1,403. *1902. 11063. That is exclusive of lunatics 1—That is exclu- , ..... sive of lunatics. 11064. Do the houseless aliens resort to the casual ward very much ?—No, they do not come at all. I saw the casual ward superintendent last week and asked him the question. " Well," he said, u it is very curious yon should ask me the question. I have had one this week, and he isthe first Jew I have seen for ten years.'' When I cross-questioned him a little, and found where he had sent this man, I was disposed to think he was a Christianised Jew. He was not sent to the Jewish people, but he was sent to somebody in connection with the Rector of Spitalfields, and I at once concluded he was a Christianised Jew, Therefore it may be literally said that not one has been there in my memory at all events. 11065. You have givren us actual facts or figures in regard to the impression made on the local pauperism by the alien class. 1 Have you been led to form any opinion as to the effect upon pauperism of foreign competition with our labour ?—I have never heard it suggested, nor have I ever heard of a single applica - tion for relief to our Board that has been stated to have been caused by foreign immigration or by the competition of foreigners. 1 have never heard it mentioned. 11066. Has there been any serious competition in the building trade by the foreigners, you having special knowledge and experience of that trade ?—Absolutely none. It is a trade that they do not very much indulge in. 11067. With reference to the question of overcrowd- ing, are you able to adduce any instance or to refer specifically to the effect of overcrowding 1—If you had asked me three months ago I should have said yes, there is an enormous amount of overcrowding ; but since I have taken out the figures and compared notes , with the actual facts to-day in Whitechapel, I have rather come to the opposite conclusion. There is over- crowding and serious overcrowding in certain districts, but I am disposed to think that overcrowding is in very limited areas and small areas, and I will give you, if you like, my reasons for so thinking. 11068. 0Chairman.) With regard to these areas, it would be a great convenience if you would kindly mark them out on a map for us ?—My remark is rather general. I am not able to put my finger on any special spot where this takes place, except so far as Spitalfields is concerned. There is no doubt there is considerable congestion in Spitalfields. (.Major Evans Gordon.) These are the overcrowded areas as supplied by the London County Council, which are marked on the map that I have. ' (Chairman.) Perhaps you will ask some questions as you know the district so well, and we can get the information from Mr. Brown. (Major Evans Gordon.) I will endeavour to do so. 11069. (Mr. Vallance) You will agree, I take it, that there is a very serious if not an appalling condition of overcrowding in some parts of the district ?—In some parts. 11070. What I gather from you is that you are not prepared to say that that condition of things prevails over the entire district of Whitechapel ?—On the con- trary, my figures distinctly prove that it does not. 11071. What conclusion have you reached in regard to the general effect of overcrowding upon rents, or as to the high rents upon overcrowding ?—I think they act and re-act upon each other. The congestion of these people enables the landlords, naturally by the ordinary economic law, to put up their rents, and these poor peclple who feel bound to live in a certain district, and, in fact, are bound to live in a certain district, have to pay these rents ; and they can only pay them by overcrowding. 11072. Then the possibility of overcrowding without any interference on the part of the law, leads to the demands for high rents ?—Yes. 11073. You would be prepared, I take it, to say that the alien immigration into the district is a contributory* cause at all events to the congestion and to the general overcrowding ?—Yes. (Chairman.) We must make an effort to earmark the districts which are congested and those which are not. (Mr. Vallance.) If we omit for the moment the Ecclesiastical divisions, which I do not understand, the Secretary has already marked out a map which will be : useful to us. (Chairman.) But we must get it on the notes as the witness' evidence. I wish to have it from this witness, who takes a view that the last witness yesterday (Mr. Harper) may not take, because he says in some cases there is no congestion ; and I want to know where those districts are. (Mr. Vallance.) May 1 suggest that Mr. Brown would not be able to give evidence with sufficient distinctness as regards localities and different localities. He is speaking generally. For instance, he has in his eye certain congested areas in Spitalfields. If Mr. Brown were asked to denote on a map those particular districts he would not be able to do so with accuracy. 11074. We gather that you came to this conclusion that the overcrowding and the congestion was in certain parts of the district of Whitechapel and Spitalfields ■ only 1—That is so. 11075. Would you be able to denote on a map and" to give us the boundaries of any area which yon admit is a very seriously congested area —My only personal knowledge arises from what has taken place at the Assessment Committees, when we have had evidence before us of how many rooms there were in certain houses ; and we have incidentally asked how many persons were living in these places. My own knowledge is not exact as to the spots where the over- crowding takes place. I know from my daily life, and from the evidence of other guardians, such as Mr. - Davies, the Rector of Spitalfields, who gave evidence the other day, that certain districts are congested ; , but I have not examined these houses, and 1 have not the facts of each individual place before me. It was not my business to do so. 11076. (Chairman.) The evidence did not convey" to you the exact spots where this congestion existed 1 " —No. 11077. (Mr. Vallance,.) Is there anything you desire to say in addition to what you have said as regards the question of overcrowding and high rents 2—I want to say this : that the overcrowding, so far as the aliens are concerned, arises from two facts. First, they must live with their own people who can speak their own language. It is an impossibility for an alien arriving in this country to go out and live in the suburbs. He would not know a soul, and he could not speak to them if he did know them ; therefore, that is a strong reason why these people crowd together. Secondly, when .they arrive there takes place very largely—I do not know quite what they call it—but a sort of apprenticeship, the teaching of the " Greeners " as they are called, their - trade ; which takes, as a rule, six or twelve months, according to what the trade may be, by which time the man is able to earn his proper living and take care fo himself. These two facts alone cause these people to crowd together. 11078. Have you any experience of overcrowding m other districts in London ?—Yes. I have experience- of a great deal of overcrowding. 30 years ago I came to London to build some dwellings in Farringdon Street, and I was conversant at that time with the district, where the Field Lane Ragged School was carried on for many years, a well-known centre of * philanthropic work. I had, for the purpose of the work I was then carrying out, to go into houses adjoining where these buildings were erected, and in one case I found 40 people living in a house of six or seven rooms —six rooms and a scullery. That is 30 years ago, , and that sort of instance abounded in that district. It was nothing to do with the aliens. 11079. (Chairman.) Where was the Field Lane Refuge ?—In Farringdon Street, near the Farringdon - Railway Station.minutes of evidence. 369 11080. (Lord Eothschild.) It is halfway between Ludgate • Hill and Euston Square %—No, it is not so far as that. It is just above the Holborn Viaduct ; about three minutes' walk above the Viaduct. 11081. (Major Evans Gordan.) That is 30 years ago (l —About 28. 11082. Do you suggest that neighbourhood is in the same condition now ?—I do not think it is. 11083. Are you aware whether that neighbourhood is not largely inhabited by Italians 1—The Italians lie higher up in Hatton Garden. 11084. Off Farringdon Road?—Yes. I had some premises there for some time, and I know the district pretty well. 11085. (Mr: Yallance.) Do you know anything about the overcrowding in Notting Hill ?—Last week I got a letter from the Rector of Notting Hill, and I was very much astonished to read—in his appeal for funds— these words : " What it is to live, six or seven together in a tiny room, only those who have to do it, and those of us who unhappily have, day by day, to witness it, know. It is this which has caused the terrible death rate last year in the Avernus district, namely, 411 children under one year of age to 1,000 born." I have never read such figures, and I have never seen any- thing like it. 11086. (Lord Eothschild.) That is quite apart from the alien congestion Absolutely. That is why I am quoting it. I live in Kensington myself, and I get Dr. Dudfield's Reports every month, and he is always telling this tale about the overcrowding, and the terrible state of things that exists in Nottiiig Dale, Which is, I think, the actual district. 11087. (Chairman.) You have no means of compar- ing that Notting Hill rate of mortality among children with the Stepney mortality among children ?—Stepney does not compare with it for a moment. (Mr. Yallance). Those figures of 411 per thousand, are very wild indeed. They are not reliable at all. 11088. (Chairman.) I thought they came from some official document ?—No, they are from the Rector of the parish. 11089. (Mr. Yallance.) It is an appeal for sub- scriptions?—Yes. I have no means of testing that but this is out of a district which, he says, contains 12,000 people. 11090. (Chairman.) Would there be any official Registrar General's accounts of such deaths ?—I have no doubt there are. I have not had time to compare them, or else I would have got the official records and compared them. 11091. (Mr. Yallance.) You are owner of some blocks of dwellings in Clerkenwell, are you not ?—Yes, I own blocks of dwellings containing about 1,500 people. 11092. Have you any difficulty there in relation to overcrowding ?—Yes, my chief difficulty is to find it out. 11093. Have you any difficulty with regard to over- crowding other than the overcrowding caused by the natural increase of the family ?—No, that is our chief difficulty. We let two rooms, or two rooms and a scullery for 5s. or 6s. a week, to a . decent man and his wife. Perhaps they are just married and have got one child, perhaps two. Four or five years after that we find there are three or four more children. That house then becomes overcrowded. We say to the man, when we find it out, "Now you must go out; " but he says, " How can I go out—I cannot get another dwelling ; if I tell anybody I have got six children, nobody will have me." Then we say, " You must take another room." " No," he says, " I cannot pay for another room ; J have got six children to feed now, instead of two ; my wages are no more." There is his difficulty., I have not got it in me to turn that man into the street. 11094. Has the present cost of building any relation to the overcrowding %—To my mind there are two or three things which are very much crippling private enterprise, in the provision of buildings ; one is that one you have asked about, namely, the extra cost of building, which to day is at least 33 per cent, more than it was ten or twelve years ago. The other point Mr. J. is (I am here on very delicate ground) that I think p. municipal enterprise should not take the direction of — building: dwellings for the people to live in. I hold 16 Dec* that strongly. I think their doing that has crippled private enterprise, because we cannot obtain sites and compete with a public authority, who can get their sites, and write off a very large proportion of the . cost before they reckon what the rent shall be. 11095. (Chairman.) They get their sites, do you mean, compulsorily, or by agreement f—-In some cases, as you are no doubt aware, the County Council have been allowed to acquire sites which have become a nuisance. I quite agree it is a right and proper thing to do. These sites are in the parts of London where dwellings are required perhaps more than any where else ; therefore, they- have got the first pull at a* large de- mand dwellings, namely, the necessities of the people. I cannot produce instances, but one hears of cases where they have paid £20,000, £30,000 or £50,000 for a site ; and they say, "Oh! three-fourths of that be- longs to the sanitary question, and the question of clearing a congested area." They charge that to the general rates, and the site itself is charged at a com- paratively small sum to the building they are going to- place upon it. 11096. It comes put to a question of the interest ; that is to say, three-fourths is put to the sanitary question,, and one-fourth to the building site ?—That is so. 11097. (Major Evans Gordon.) And that is the only means by which they can let their houses at a reasonable rent ?—Yes. 11098. And even then the rents are very high 1— Even then the rents of such areas as the Boundary Street area are almost prohibitive. If they want to- clear their sites, which is quite the right thing to do (everybody agrees to that), they should put them in the market at reasonable prices, such a price as people can pay for the erection of block dwellings. There are plenty of people in these days and plenty of companies- who would cover these sites. 11099. (Chairman.) They must put them on the market at a price that will remunerate them for the expenditure 2—Not if they clear a site because of insanitary conditions. I think no one would object to a part of the cost of that site being placed to the credit of better sanitary conditions. 11100. (Mr. Yallance.) In other words the price that the County Council would have to pay for a site is a prohibitive price to any would-be erector of dwellings ?— Absolutely prohibitive. 11101. And the County Council, or the sanitary authority, should as a principle acquire the site and then put it in the open market for sale ?—That is so. That is my judgment. 11102. Placing the loss to the debit of the ratepayers % —That is so. 11103. You admit the clearances are responsible for a good deal in such a district as Whitechapel ?—-That is. a very serious question in Whitechapel. 11104. Have you any knowledge of the Brady Street clearances ?—I went down about a year ago to see the demolition which had taken place in Brady Street im- mediately opposite the Rothschild dwellings. Lord Rothschild knows the spot, I have no doubt. How many houses they cleared I do not know, but it was said by several persons that at least 1,000 persons had been rendered homeless. I do not think it was so many as that, but from what one could judge of the area I should say the number would be at least between 500 and 1,000 persons. These were cleared by our respected Mayor of Stepney, a member of the firm of Messrs. Mann, Crossman and Paulin, and they have now erected upon it buildings belonging to their own brewery. 11105. And the Londoil Hospital, too, have extended their building ?—The London Hospital have cleared a very large site immediately at the back to erect a medical school. 11106. A site which was covered by dwellings ?—Yes. 11107. (Major Evans Gordon.) And there is an oufc- 3ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: , patients' departinent, too ?—-Yes* It, is % very proper J.p.r; tBing to do, only th£ people are dispossessed. & Dec. 1902 11108. (Mr. WjaMance.) Then there are the Board .....— Schools There are the Board Schools, and they have cleared many sites; they are obliged to," because the crowding of the people arid the increase of the popula- tion have obliged them to build'schools! 11109. Have you any opinion generally on the general question of overcrowding, and as to the best means of checking it ?—I am not conversant with the details of the law,, but from all I hear, and from the evidence which has been given here from time to time by experts in the matter, I think the law is abundantly strong enough to control this overcrowding, but it has never been put in force. 11110. Would you like to say anything in regard to the effect of alien immigration upon the manufacture of cheap goods ?—I have been told by a gentleman, on whose truthfulness I absolutely rely, that there are trades carried on to-day in the East End of London which would absolutely cease if it were not for the ; immigration of aliens. : - 11111. In other words that the aliens have intro- 4 ducednew industries ?—They hkve built up new indus- tries that otherwise are impossible. ■ 1 111 12; (Chairman.) Whait are they ?—On Friday < last I had half an hour's conversation with a manufac- turer of cheap clothing and caps. He employs upwards of 1,000 hands. It is an enormous factory, which I .know intimately. He said, "If you shut out the immigration you will shut out my business, and my business .and others will have to go back to Germany." 11113. {Lord Rothschild.) Was that manufacturer ;an Englishman?—He is an English born Jew. He : told me he was born in Fashion Street, in Central Spital- fields, so he knows the district and has lived there : practically all his life. 11114. (Mr. Vallance.) There has been a good deal of evidence with regard to the displacement of labour caused by alien immigration. There has also been ; -evidence of displacement of shop-keepers. Is that dis- placement attributable wholly to the alien immigration ' ■or are there other causes which have contributed to it ?--r-I ?do not think there has been any displacement of ordinary labour, I can see no evidence of it, and I know of no cause, but there has been a displacement of the . small shopkeepers, there is no doubt about that. 11115. They have been the chief sufferers They have been the chief sufferers, but then you know that may arise from several causes. -The alien who speaks a foreign language, for a time naturally goes to the people who can understand him and who supplies the sort of goods that he requires and uses. That follows as a natural course. But in addition to that, look at what has taken place in London in the last 20 years in the direction of large shops and co-operative stores. They have completely revolutionised the shop-keeping trade, and it is all these causes together that account for this. But I think, if you ask me, the people who have ■suffered principally have been the small shopkeepers •of the district. There is no doubt about that. 11116. I can take it generally you have been led to form a favourable opinion of the character of the alien population introduced into the district, but you also admit that the alien immigration has been contributory to a very serious congestion in the district. Have you formed an opinion as to whether any system of regula- tion or restriction is desirable in the interests of the congested area ?—Of course that is a very broad and Tyide. question. I have thought it oyer a great deal. So far as dealing with the congestion which exists to- day I think it is comparatively easy. I think if the compulsory powers to stop it were put into force, and if the landlord (I am one myself, not in that district, but •close by) was penalised as well as the tenant, you would •dp a great deal to stop this overcrowding. Now the greatest objection to summarily dealing with over- crowding is this: a man and his wife and six children live in a house ; he has not room for, we will say, more than two children ; you cannot put that man into the . street. It is an impossibility; no law can do that, but the law can say, ** This house is overcrowded, there is only room for four people in it, we will not turn you out, .we will wait for the thing to right itself, but if you take another person into that house we will sue you and fine you, and do everything that is possible to punish you for breaking the law.M That is one way. • 11117. As §n owner yourself of dwellings, and having regard to the fact which you have already mentioned, that it is very difficult, if not impossible, for a landlord to prevent overcrowding, should the landlord in such case be penalised ?~I would give him time. My sug- gestion is that time should be given for any house rthat is over-crowded to-day to right itself; therefore there would be no hardship on the landlord in that case. He simply has got to wait and prevent anybody else being taken into that house. 11118. Apart from the general question of alien immi- gration into the congested area, have you arrived at any opinion as to the desirability of regulating the immi- gration into this country so far as regards the criminal clashes and those suffering from physical and mental disability, and those who are evidently such as will not contribute to the wealth of the country ?—That latter is a yery problematical suggestion. As to keeping out criminals, I think everybody is agreed that that should be done. As to keeping out mentally and physi- cally defective persons, I would like to do it, but I cannot suggest how , it is to be done. Do not forget (and I hope nobody will forget) that whatever you tpuch in England, you must not touch the right of asylum. 11119. (Chairman.) By the right of asylum do you mean the political asylum, or tjie general right to come here 1—The general right to come here by persecuted 1 people. I am old enough to remember Lord Palmerston going out of office in 1858 after the attempt of Orsini on the life of Napoleon the Third. 11120. (Mr. Vallance.) Apart from the practicability, I am rather ^ anxious to elicit from you an opinion as to the desirability of restricting or regulating the admission into the country of certain definite classes— criminal classes, those evidently suffering from physical 6r mentai disability (of course upon the foundation of medical evidence), and undesirables ?—Yes, I quite agree that criminals unquestionably ought to be kept out, and I do not think there is much difficulty about it. Every man who comes to settle in England should be compelled to produce a certificate of character, and that would be a comparatively easy thing to arrive at, because the records exist in the country from which they come, of what has happened to them. But when you come to the question of disease, first of all you have to define what disease means. 11121. Substitute the word " defective " (l—I .am afraid I hesitate there very much. I see a difficulty. Who is to overlook these people 1 11122. You can qualify it if you like, but do I under- stand you to say, subject to the right of asylum to perse- cuted foreigners, you would be prepared to advise that the legislature is justified in providing for the exclusion of: certain definite cases—the criminal, the vicious, tliose suffering from physical 6r mental defect, and the undesirables. By " undesirables" I do not mean in the sense in which the word is very frequently used, but I mean undesirable in the sense that they come here and it is manifestly the case that they cannot achieve an existence for themselves -2—I think steps ought to be taken to regulate it. I am afraid I cannot go much further, because from my examination of the figures that have come before me, I find the numbers are so small in these other classes. 11123. As I understand, you are hesitating to express an opinion upon the ground that the exceptions to which I refer would be so small in number, but that is quite apart from the distinct question I am putting 1— Yes. 11124. It has been given in evidence that in one part of the East End of London there are at the present time a very Considerable number of foreign women on the streets, prostitutes. Assuming (never mind about the difficulties) the possibility of determining the character of those young women when they are landed in an English port, would you be in favour of regulation excluding them from the country ?—That is assuming that their character was bad when they came ? 11125. Yes 1—I certainly would exclude them. 11126. Is there anything else you would like tcx say 1— The only thing you did not allow me to say was withMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 371 regard to this question of overcrowding, and with regard to the number of houses in Whitechapel or in the district. I was here the' other day, and I heard Major Evans Gordon make the remark that you could not depend on the statistics with regard to the houses. I know but what I have done is to take their relative conditions in three periods, namely, 1881, 1891, and 1901. Now I find in 18^1 the number of houses in the Whitechapel Union ambunted to 8,Si2 ; in 1891, 9,058, and in 1901, 9,*t85. This is the result, the average numbers to each house 20 years ago were 8*6; 10 years ago, 8*2 ; last year,' 8*05, showing a gradual reduction of the number in each house. I know that in the census our district, is put down as containing 5,826 houses, but in reality it contains 9,785., The difference arises from this fact, thai in the census figures which have been given to you, 299 houses are subject to more than one rating, that means that they are all block dwellings, divided in certain cases into 100 tenements, and there- fore one house means 100 tenements. Those 299 are actually rated in 4,258 separate ratings, and those separate ratings are as a matter of fact, distinct houses. 11127. Is it not a fact that there are houses of four or six rooms, sublet to four tenants, say, and that there are foiir ratings on the rate book, one for each occupier ?—-Yes. 4 " 11128. (Chairman.) Would you work out this ques- tion of tlie block system of 299 houses. You are not objecting to each of thieve sets of rooms (they may be two or three or, whatever they are) being treated as separate tenements for rating ?—Certainly not. 11129. That is the right thing?—That is the right thing. .. . . . 11130. If they had been built as separate houses apart there would be no question about it ?—No. 11131. But the real result got out is 9,000 odd ?— The real result is 9,785. It follows that ho.uses have increase^ more rapidly than the population. I was startled y I had no idea that it was so until last week when I got these figures carefully worked out. These figures are from the Stepney Council. 11132. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I daresay you are aware that for re-housing purposes' under Private Bills and so on, it is the tenement and not the four walls that is considered to i be a house ?—Yes. 11133. The provision is' that if more than 20 houses are taken the re-housing obligation arises?—That is with regard to the School Board. 11134. And in all Railway and other Acts. Under thbse circumstances, the house is not the block dwelling at all, but the various tenements in the block dwelling t —Yes. • •' 11135. (Chairman.) Will you give me the exact' district where these 9,785 tenements are .rated ?—That is the whole of the Whitechapel Union—the Union that I personally am acquainted with, and which comes under us as an Assessment Committee ; our rule being that a house is a separate rateable quantity that has a separate entrance from the street. For instance, if you go up the staircase of a building six floors high, there, are spmetimes four0 dwellingsone^ph * landing. Thbre are 24 (dwellings 1 on thai one 'staircase, ?jthe staircase being practically, the street,/^nd it is that catlses the miscalculation which has been made about the number of houses., 11136. Is'. it./:your idea that that is a discrepancy^ between the Census Returns and the actual returns upon the statemelit you are now making of the measure of ratirig ^hiph exists throtighout not only the East End, and nbif only in your district I should think everywhere, : more or less. They do not exist, my Lord, very widely in London, but they exist, speaking quite roughly in half the parishes of London. 11137. And they are increasing 1-^They are in- creasing,/ naturally. The dwellings I have . referred to just now,; of which I am, the owner, are in St. Luke's, which is a very crowded district. 11138. Would the Census state your block-dwelling • as oiie • house ?^-It probably would. I do not kntov,' as a' matter of fact; but I have very little doubt it i^ soi : ' 6144. ' '■ 11139. (Major Evans Gordon) We have had it that Mr. J. they , do ?^It is a most^ridiculoTas!-;thiiig, ,:.and; I cannot Brown, coheeivehow it has arisen! ^ The thing; is as wrong - - » ^ as it. can be. : 16 Dec. 1902. 11140. It has obscured our figures all through I have, in addition, got peremptory orders calling upon me to furnish, to the Registration Officers (I think it is for voting purposes) the name of every tenant all through my dwellings, and I have to give the number of his dwelling.. ; : 1/ -///) . . ill41. (Chairman.) That is -to get the occupation )— Yes1.: , 11142. In the Census Returns, if they ,give, us these large blocks as one house, do they return the number of occupants or the occupiers of the dwellings—350, or ~ whatever the number may be, as in the occupation of that one house ?—Yes, I think so. {Major 6/orrfon.) It:would only appear in the - totalis •; it would not appear in detail. They say there ' are so many houses and so many people in'them. (Mr. Vallance.) It would appear in the totals only. I am glad Mr. Brown has given the figures, but I pur-;; posely passed over that part of his evidence for the reason that any deductions to be made from them were very unsafe. . /) (Chairman.) The Census collector must send in his return as to what he calls a house—the specific block, : with the name of the dweller in it. (Major Evans Gordon.). He has got it on his schedule,. > but nowhere else. It does not appear in the Census j Returns, (Chairman.) The collector would send it in in his enumeration. 11143. (Major Evans Gordon,) Yes, quite so. May I ask a question on that point 1 [To the Witness.] I 7 want to know whether you can say how many dwelling rooms there are in these 9,000 ratings ?—I cannot give the rooms. 11144. It is a question of rooms, really 1—Yes, but I have only taken the. figures of dwellings relatively to the population. Those figures that I have given 8*6, 8*2, 8*05, and' so on, are simply a division of the- population by the number of houses. 11145. (Chairman.) On this point of the 9,785, you speak pretty accurately from a knowledge of the number of tenements in these blocks ; where do you get this from ?—The 9,785 are the figures given me last week from Stepney Borough Council, the number of separate ratings from the rate books. 11146. (Lord Eothschild.) What is your experience of the comparative security of life and property in the East End and in the Whitechapel Union now as com- ' pared with what it was 15 or 20 years ago 1—If you go back further than that I would say that the difference is very great* I think that the reformation began; between 28 or 30 years ago, when some of the bad areas were being cleared and fresh dwellings built. I think to-day life and property is very safe in the East End of' London. 11147. Then you would not agree with sonie of the previous witnesses that the influx of the alien population : had decreased,, the security of life and property ?—No,. certainly not. 11148. I think you were kind enough to give us the figures of the aliens in the Whitechapel Union receiving parish relief of various kinds ; could you give us the proportions of the aliens to the Englishmen in the White- chapel Union, so as to compare the figures. Roughly n speaking, I may say that the number of aliens receiving parish: relief was very small 1—Very small indeed. 11149. And the proportions of aliens to Englishmen in the Whitechapel Union is not very small-^-it is very: large—the number of aliens receiving parish relief is very small compared with the number of aliens residing1- there ?~rThe figures show that conclusively ; there are 78,000 oddi population, and it is supposed that 30,000 of these are aliens. 5 11150., I,suppose we may take it from you that you approve, generally speaking, of the erection /of the&e - large,, buildings for the , ^working classes J—There is absolutely^.other ^ay out of the difficulty. - : oj 1 • 3 a 2 : •j? - 372 RO YAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I J. 11151. And supposing that similar buildings were j;i\ erected outside the congested district, I suppose there is nothing to prevent the alien population from going 16 Dec. 1902. either to Dalston or Stoke N 11187. You told us about the bad streets and where it was dangerous to go, and the improvement which has taken place in modern times in those streets ; do you attribute that to the influx of aliens ?—No, I attribute it to the improved conditions, and that those bad areas have been cleared away and new buildings erected. I particularly mentioned Thrawl Street, and Flower and Dean Streets. ------MINUTES Ot IVltfENCE* 373 11188.. One cannot attribute the general improve- ment that has gone on all over London to foreign immigration ?—I do not think that would be fair. 11189. , There have been all sorts of organisations which work for the moral betterment of the people, and it has had its effect in that part of London as elsewhere ? —The point that was in my mind when I referred •to that was that these districts I specially mentioned ;are to-day occupied entirely by Jews, and they have become s absolutely safe places for people to pass through ;at any time, of the day or night. 11190;' You do not wish us to deduce from that, that had it not been for the Jewish immigration, these streets Would have remained in as bad a condition ?— Oertainly not, except for the question of population. 11191. It is not a question of cause and effect there ?— Oh, no. 1119^. The principal way that these people come upon us, so far as they do come upon the rates at all, is in respect of medical relief ?—Yes, it is a very small matter. 11193. That does not cost very much money ?—. Ha 11194:1 In allowing for the comparatively few in mumber that come on our rates, we also must allow ior ther enormously good work done by the Jewish Board of Guardians ?—-Entirely. The curious thing .ubout that medical relief is—I do not know whether it is tru& or not, but it has been stated over and over ;again in our Board Boom—that the reason of such large numbers coming for medical relief is, that these .foreign people are very fond of physics, and they will actually have as many as two or three doctors going at the same time ; . and I have heard it stated, that they will have their bottles of medicine before them, and will ■take them in rotation. It is a peculiarity—I do not kncjw whether it is actually true, but I have heard it stated in our Board Boom many a time. 11195., Pro tanto to that extent it does represent •a bur deli to the ratepayers ?—Yes, of course, to that •extent. ; 11196. The proportion of lunatics and imbeciles sennas' ife(ry;;iliigh^50:i luiiatics, and 150 foreigners ?— N6, that is high ; it is about the same relative proportion I take it, that 30,000 is to 78,000. 11197,.: You say there are 30,000 aliens in White •chapel^—-Aliens and Jews, as compared to 78,000 populatidft. It comes out less rather. 11198. ; {Lord Rothschild.) You said 30,000 Jews in an entire population of 78,Q00 ?—Yes. 11199. (Major Evans Gordon.) The total number was 501 lunatics and imbeciles, and 150 were aliens and Jews ?—Yes. 11200. (Lord Rothschild.) It is not one-third. I is under the proportion ?—It is under the proportion. 11201. (Major Evans Gordon.) With regard to the illegitimate births, there were 93 illegitimate altogether, 23 pf which were Jewish and foreign ?—1There were 93 illegitimate children, and 25 of them were Jewish not 23. Mr. Yallance rather challenged those figures. 11202. (Chairman.) He withdrew the challenge ?•— Yes, he did. „.•••" . - ' . 11203. He said they wanted testing -Yes. litioQl (Major Evans Gordon.) We have other figur'e^u here ; Mr. Vallance has got them from the Infirii4ryi The births in 1 §01, English, judged by 3;he name only, legitimate 26, and illegitimate 43 births ; tot£l\69. Then foreigners, legitimate, 9 births ; ille- gititidsite' 25 births ; total 34 ; making a grand total of 103.;, So that that would point, generally speaking, to ibptft the same standard of morality, as far as that figure £ho^s us anything between the two classes of population 'Yes. The figures I think were 103, not 93. (Chairman.) Does that agree with Mr. Vallance-s figure ? f , (Mr. Vallance.) Yes. ■ (The fitness.) I think I have added up 10 wrong. It is 103, and but of that 103, 34 were foreigners, and $5 were illegitimate. J 11205. (Major Evans Gordon.) And nine were Mr. legitimate ?—Yes. Br<>wn>S. p. 11206. 43 were illegitimate, English; and 26 legiti- n; ]>ec# mate, English, total 69 ?—I have not got that figure. 11207. It would point to about the same standard 1— A similar proportion. 11208. To about the same standard, roughly That is so. 11209. Then, of course, as you say, the number that come into the work-house is small ?—62. 11210. They, from their religious and other reasons, would be under intense pressure to come ; a Jew would not go into the workhouse if he could possibly avoid it ?—He would avoid it if he was a right-minded Jew. 11211. From very laudable religious and other reasons ?—We do not make provision for their religious difficulties. 11212. Do you provide them with Kosher food ?— Yes, they have Kosher meat. 11213. Have you got Kosher cooks ?—No, the Jewish gentlemen who came did not ask for that, but we . agreed to give them Kosher meat. 11214. Cooked by Christian people ?—Yes. 11215. iVnd cooked in the workhouse ?—Yes, we could not separate them. 11216. It would point to a very strong pressure, that they came into the workhouse ?—I should think so. 11217. That would point to a very considerable amount of poverty and distress?—No, I do not think it would do that. 11218. If they do not come in except under strong pressure, and they have other resources to go to, they would keep out as long as they can, and the fact that 62 came in would surely show there were a great many more ?—Out of that 62, 16 were children, and then some were deserted wives and children with them, whom the Jewish people asked us to take in order to meet that very pressure you are referring to, which was on them, because it had got to be a burden to the Jewish Board of Guardians that these men went away and left their wives and families. ' 11219. It is an admitted trouble, because their returns show that, and there is no question of it. Then you gave us an interesting list of the number of trades in which these people were engaged ?—Yes. 11220. Those were the number who came into the workhouse ?—During the last year. 11221. They touch practically a good many trades which you specified ?.—Yes...... 11222. Does not that point to this, that these shoe- making, cabinet-making, and tailoring industries are over full, and that the pressure of alien people is driving them into other employments ?—I do not think it points, to that, because the numbers are so very, very few, and there are _ so many causes why a man comes tp poverty ; it is not a question of being out of work , that drives him to poverty, it is because he is unfit in some way or other, and he has got some difficulty. Curiously enough, in that list there is not one cabinet maker, and I was very much struck with that. 11223. That list comes as a surprise to you ?—It did, quite as a surprise. 11224. You were surprised that these people were working in these employments ?—Yes, but you see the numbers are extremely small after the tailors are done with. 11225. (Chairman.) They are nearly all " ones." —Yes. 011226. (Major Evans Gordon.) They are only those who come to the workhouse, and it would necessarily i be a very small figure?—Yes. 11227. But it does give that indication that if one carpenter comes into ftfye workhouse, it points to 'the fact that there are a great many others, because, only tha$ one comes under pressure into the workhouse ?-—Yes, that* is r>o.kg ))■ ^ ROYAL COMMISSION ,;QN IMMIGRATION : Mr* J. 11228. But it is, 1 believe, a fact that tliey are in- Brown, J.r. creasingly employed in all sorts of different employ- n qr,9 merlts ^—I would not say that. I have a list h&e in m^aaid^which I 'did not give with regard 45b 1887, which is fifteen years ago* It is the same list made up in the same way, it is interesting, and I do not know whether you would like to have it. 11229. I do not think it is worth while. You are aware that these people coming from Russia and Poland, numbers of them go to these employments that you specify, wliibh are entirely in Jewish hands in these countries ?—I arri not aware of that. I do not know that as a fact. a ''' ' <■ 11230. Now, with regard to overcrowding, what means did you take to collect the statistics you have given"; Is it merely the assessment ?—The assessment returns of each ten years. .11231. Would there be, in taking the assessment or in fixing the assessment, any advantage in concealing the jiumber of people in the different houses ?—None whatever ; but the assessment does not deal with that. It is a mere incidental fact. 11232. What is the assessment made on—on the rent paid ?—-Yes:. It comes out in this way, that if a man admits in a certain building there are 10 rooms, we immediately begin to ask him what each room is r let for, and it is in that way incidentally that it comes' out to us there are so many rooms in that house, and occasionally we get to know how many people are there. 11233. Have you ever come across cases in which two rent-books were kept ?—Only one that we suspected, and we took a. great deal of trouble to search that out; but I am afraid we found we were seeking a mare's nest. 11234. You are acquainted with Dr. Thomas ?—Yes. 11235. He said in his evidence that there were fre- quent cases of two rent-books being kept, one for the rent, and the other for assessment purposes ?—Did he know it as a fact ? 11236. Yes, he spoke of it as a fact.—We thought we had got a case at our last quinquennial—that is when these things come before us, and we followed it up. It was a case of a man whom we should have been very glad to have discovered was going wrong, but it turned out that the extra money that was paid was to pay for some alteration or improvement that had been done in the dwelling, so that we lost our trail. 11237. Then you told us about the influences which bring these people to crowd into one district of London, their religion and language and a natural desire to live near their own people, and you spoke also of the neces- sity of these people living in that part of London ; do you think that there is a necessity also for English working people to live in that part of London ?-—For- borne* but? not for many, 11238. People working in the markets, for instance ? —The market1 porters, and perhaps their wives who work in the City in the offices. 11239. People engaged about the docks, for instance ? —I should not have thought that was so necessary. .11240. Do you know the hours they have to be at the,dock gates ?—Yes, they have to be fairly early, of. course ; but then the workmen's trains are all very early—too early, as a fact. 11241. You do not regard it as any hardship that these people should be displaced from their own homes ? —l ean understand the sentimental grievance, but surely it is a benefit to a good mechanic to live five or six or even 10 miles out. I have got to-day mechanics coming up from Brentwood, in Essex, to. my place in Whitechapel to work. 11242. Have you ever come across places where com- plaints have been made of the hardship of being dis- placed from their homes ?—No, I never have. 11243. You think it is merely a sentimental grievance ? —No} I would not say that, because I have no right to say that; If a man has lived in a home for many years • it is fiard upon him. That is true, and thete is no doubt aboiit it. I think he has a grievance distinctly. 11244. 0Chairman.) How far is Brentwood from your works ?—Eighteen miles. 11245. {Major Evans Gordon.) Many of these people- complain that the advantages in the way of rent of living outside are discounted by the fact that they have to start very much earlier to get to their work at all, and that they have to ;pay an considerable amount in getting to and fro each day. It adds in some cases as-, much as an hour and a half or two hours a day to their working time, and the time they are away from their homes?—It does add time, but it gives them fresh air to breathe. Take Enfield, for instance, where thousands - of working men live who come into the East End of ; London with penny tickets. That is only Is. a week« Tickets are issued by the Great Eastern Railway Com- pany for one penny. 11246. But still, with reference to those people who:- have lived, as many of them have lived, for very many years in this part of London, you would regard it as a hardship to be turned out ?—Do you think they are - turned out? I have never met cases of their being turned out. I think the better word to use is that they get replaced. 11247. I will not split hairs about that. Pressed out, shall we say ?—Pressed out, if you like. 11248. {Chairman.) Whatever word you use the fact- remains the same.—They go out. 11249. {Major Evaris Gordon.) They are not there. We know that this inflow is going on steadily, and we have got a great deal of evidence, which I shall be able - to produce, to show that there is every prospect of it going on and increasingly going on. With reference to what happened in your own experience, and the enor- mous increase of the area occupied by these people, do * you contemplate the increasing inflow and spread, of this matter with perfect equanimity ?—I think I do, conditionally. I think steps should be taken to separate these people, and to induce them to go to different parts.... I know, and probably we all know, that the Jewish- people are doing a great deal in this very direction- getting them to go to other cities and towns in England- and other parts of London. I think the whole trouble - arises from the concentration of these people in onr district. 11250. It is a concentration which is experienced very very strongly in New York, and in other places where they have gone ?—Does New York suffer in , the same way, in an actual district in the city ? 11251. I have the Annual Report of the Commissioner - General" of Immigration in which that particula feature of it, particularly Russian and Polish Immigra- tion, which is largely Jewish, is very strongly referred to ?—I think it is a bad thing for many reasons that il . should be. 11252. They feel it very, very much, and at the same time we are fast approaching the same conditions here ? ' —I have not the New York figures here. {Chairman.) Would you, after this gentleman's - evidence that it is impossible to get these people- to ■ go amongst strangers who cannot speak their language, ask him whether he suggests we can by legislation, cause them to separate. 11253. {Major Evans Gordon.) You have referred to the natural tendency to come together. How should you propose that that should be dealt with?" This is a tremendously strong feature that we see in all parts of Europe that I have been in and America, , too, and how is that to be combated in your opinion ?— That is a very big question, because that refers not . only to the aggregation of the Jewish and the alien element, but it touches the question of the countryman , coming to London in the thousands that he does now. I am an Essex man, and lived till I was 40 years of age in the middle of Essex, and I know that many towns - and parishes are more or less decreasing, and all these people are crowding into London. 11254. And also emigrating abroad?—Yes, emigrat- ing, of , course, but when they get into London they are not known particularly. They are ^ Englishmen . and. can speak English, but they have no distinctive manners . and customs, and therefore they are not spotted. 11255. They assimilate, in fact ?—Yes, they assimilate. You ask me whether anything can be one. I can only suggest that the whole thing can be done in con- nection with the heads of the Jewish people themselves..MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 375 1 know , that thatiisnot giving a legal-status to it, but -considering wMt the Jewish people are doing to-day with regard to the poverty question, and what the " Jewish, Board of Guardians are doing (their work is perfect they wpuld have very great influence, and^ it •-seems, to me you; have at your elbow, a power which ^can be.used in some way or other. I have not a doubt (I have had the advantage of talking with many of the heads of the Jewish community) they are all ^ as anxious as we are tio> separate these people. I believe to-day they are subscribing towards synagogues in various parts in order td induce people tolgather round their synagogues, and I know they are just as anxious •as we are to break up this aggregation. 11256. Have you ever considered the propriety or (•possibility of proclaiming the East End in any way to prevent this further inflow ?—I do not think you can • do that. I think you J should rely on ' the question of bVfercrowdirig and sanitary conditions, and then if yolv could adcl to that a combination With the heads :of ;taie , Jewish community, I think the whole thing ■could ;be accomplished. 11257. You think the Jewish Board of Guardians ^areL trying or have tried to disseminate these people. Do you know how many they have succeeded in planting -out,* so to speak ?-^I cannot tell how many they; have planted out in different districts in England, but there i is a- table in the Jewish Report of their work for the last?-year in which they give certain figures. They,, -dov not give tables of the movement of the Jewish ; ^ ; people' in England itself, but they give those that have J emigrated and those whom they have repatriated. 11258; I am not talking of those now. I am talking j; -of the relief of the pressure in the East End generally., v 'Those ar6 two separate branches. . There is in ..the • • Jewish Board pf Guardians' Report an item, " Removed. Ltb dther parts 6f England ? "—I have not that in my,; Report. " " \ ' 11^59. So far as I have studied the Reports, they .go to ihow that about 12 a year have been so moved; to other parts of England ?—It may be among this >: - letterpress; but I do not find it in the table. 11260. . What I am dealing with is the immediate question in the East Enil. The Report I have seen : shows that 12 a year have been disseminated in England and put into other parts 1—Yes. 11261. So that hitherto, in spite of every wish and ^de^it6," which I kriowL does exist among ^ the Jewish ^community, they have not succeeded in relieving the pressure in the Ea,st Eiid ?—lam very much puzzled to i hear you say that, because it has come to my know- ledge lately that a - great many of the Jewish people ^re working iii South Wales in the mines. 11262. Has that been an organised thing, or is it-' the! natural flow 1-1 atn unable to tell you that but. I can only conceive that* that has arisen from the very 'difficulties you are pointing to, namely, that they have got these people;; to move off and to go:: into certain -other- districts. 11263. We have ne> evidence of thatI canriot .give you evidence beyond the fact that it is so. 11264. Are you awate that there are large foreign ;and .Jewish colonies in such towns as Manchester, v Leeds, Snd Hull t—Yes. Ltoes it exist in Cardiff j ; 1:1265.; Also ' in . South Wales we can trace them, •and certainly Boles. (I think Christians mo.stly.? not L Jews) in the mines in Scotland ; but that is a movement - that is going 'oh apart from the movement in London. What I am talking of now is the congestion in London itSeK P-Yes, I quite agree. 11266. So that these places which they might go to .ar$ already filling :xip from outside, apparently ?—Yes. 11267.. That.increases the difficulty of the problem 1 r~Yesj hut the ^numbers a-re not enough. • 11268. Bo you knoiv, the number in the East End, there ate 54,000 .^Taking all London, I understand the niimbers are- about i 10,000 to 120,000. il2Q9. We have" nof Accurate figures ?—I do not think anybody can get'it exactly, from: what I under- stand. 11270. Now another point, with regard to the ."administration -of tHe law in respect of overcrowding. You told us of a case on your own property, of a man Mr. J, who is there with six children, and whom you cannot Brown, 3. P. turn out. .You have not the heart to turn him out ?— IA ' mi , • 10 Dec. lUUt:. That is so. . m * 11271. If you had a stringent administration of the sanitary law going on, not only in the East End, but all over London, which you would have to have in order to be effective, to get that law put into force, you would be constantly faced with that, would you not ?— Yes. • 11272. And it would have to be faced ?—Yes, it would have to be faced. 11273. They would have to be turned out ?—Yes. 11274. Without your telling them where they/were to go instead ?—1That is so. I have often thought on that question that, if the municipal authorities of London wished to serve the community, there is a point where they could step in and do some service. 11275. In what way 1—By providing the main who has got a large family with some means of sleeping that family for a time. 11276. Other than the workhouse1?—Yes, I would lend him a room, or two rooms, for so many years, in which the excess of his family could sleep ; because fit? is the sleeping, after all, that is the difficulty dnd the trouble. I know, it is quite contrary to iall laws of political economy, but there is the fact that you are met with. We are told to-day that a big family is a good thing. We do not' want the same condition that exists in France to prevail here on that point. Now, if a man's large family is a valuable asset, why not do something so that that family should grow up 'Well and strong, and able to fight the battle of life ? It is a difficult problem, I know, but I do think if the munici- pal. authorities of London want to do something,; there is their chance, and their best chance. 11277. Meanwhile, to get rid of this evil of over- crowding which exists not only in the East End, but in other parts as well, according to you, you would have to institute a steady and consistent hunt in all parts of London %—Yes. 11278; Otherwise you would be simply driving the people; out from one part to another, arid you would accomplish nothing ?—-That is true. 11279. You are aware the County Council statistics show there is far greater overcrowding in the East End than in any other part of London ?—Speaking generally, I daresay their statistics are correct; but if you take a small locality, I should be disposed entirely to challenge them. I think there are plenty of small spots in London :! that JCOuld be selected where the overcrowding is equal to, if: not more than that which actually exists in the East End. irz80. An influx of 54,000, not counting children born in this country, that is the lowest figure in the Census we have taken, and that would mean a corre- sponding pressure in all other outlying districts in London, because those 54,000 people are . occupying places which would be otherwise occupied by our own people 2—Yes ; but what is 54,0001 compared with the total increase in the population of London ? You know, probably, that the population of London has doubled in 50 years, or I think it is 48 years. In 50 years the population of London has increased by 2,400,000 people. 11281. {Chairman.) 25 years ago it was increasing at the rate of 70,000 a year ?—Yes. 11282. (Major Evans Gordon.) The central popu- lation of London is decreasing1?—Right in the centre and the heart of London. 11283. {Chairman.) Only the night population ?— Yes. 11284. {Major Evans Gordon.) Anyhow a population of 54,000 is a very serious thing to undertake in itself ]— In how many years would you give 54,000 ? / 11285. I suppose since 1880 ?—You are taking the whole of Stepney, where there are 300,000 people, or thereabouts. Whitechapel, with which. I am familiar, has orily increased from 75,000 to 78,000. . 11286. Because it is full, and it cannot hold mo^ 1— Practically it is so.376 ROYAL COMMISSION OX ALIEN IMMIGRATION'. Mr. J. 11287. Therefore they must flow out into other dis- 16JDec. 1902 11288. Then with regard to the trades., you have sslid' you: had the opinion of a gentleman > you spoke of, as employing a large number of hands. In his cas£, at all events, if alien immigration were to cease, his ; trade, would cease Yes, it would be carried on i und§r; such difficulties that it would result in the ;moyemejrt, of the trade, probably to Germany. -V ^i not exactly the people flowing in. His employees are people who probably have teen. in England some years. Some are fresh, and of course the fresh dries take the place of those who die or go away for other reasons. 11290. But how about the natural increase. They are having children all this time Yes, of course, that tends to 'help him. . 11291. How does the immigration of foreigners help him If alien immigration did not exist, the supply of labour would not and could not be kept up, because the class of work that these men have to do is work that 'Englishmen will not do. 11292. Will not do or cannot do—will not do at the wages No, because they earn good wages. Take the average : the man earns at least 30s. a week, which may be looked upon as a reasonable wage. 11293. You cannot speak for them ; but what I want to put to you is whether you do not think that the natural increase of the very class of people that we have already got would supply him with sufficient recruits for his labour without going to Russia and Poland to get more 1—Of course, that is quite true, put in that way, but as years go by the population die off and pass into other parts, and therefore there must be another supply. Men get on and get better circumstanced in the world, and they take up with other trades and become masters themselves and shopkeepers themselves. ; 11294. ,But if there is this opening, as you say, in that particular trade of cap making and tailoring for foreign immigration, I want to put it to you that the number that comes here is so great that the Jewish Board of Guardians have to spend large sums of money every year in sending back people for whom employment cannot be found 1— I think they send back people who are unfit. I think they are doing the very thing that you and I would like them to dp, and would like them to ,do on a much broader plane. 11295. Attempts are made to find employment for all who come ?—Yes, I should think so. 11296. And this would point to the fact that there is, at all events, a certain surplus and no demand for it %— There is a certain number who come over, and we , all agree never ought to have come. There is no doubt .about it, and the first thing that the Jewish Board of Guardians does is to try and repatriate some of these people. I have met with very curious instances. 11297. Do you suppose that all who ought to be repatriated are repatriated 1—No, I do not think so. 11298. There remains a residuum here who never ought to have come ?—Probably. 11299. Would you not think it better to prevent them coming than to send them back when they have come -The questions that you would have to study and deal with would be so great the moment you attempt to stop the whole thing. 11300. Not stop the whole thing. Nobody talks about doing that ?—Or to distinguish between the man v who is fit and the man who is unfit. It is so difficult to do that that you would keep out plenty of men who would be a great loss to the country to have kept them out. It isa difficult point. 1X301. , I should allow that it is difficulty but we have that fact before us that very large sums of money are spent in the useless travelling to and fro like battledore and shuttlecock between Russia and Poland and this country I do not think so much as you suppose. My figures do not agree with that at all. My figures give something like £2,000 a year spent in that way. 11302. Do you read the Jewish Board of Guardians' reports V—Yes, I have got last year's report here. 11303. Is it not a fact that they are always com- plaining that they have not enough money to carry: on this business with ?—There is no complaint in this report.. They finish up with a balance in hand. 11304. It is a painful thing this going to and fro, and it is talked of very much On the Continent. There were 48,500 marks sent abroad last year to one gentleman,, and that is independent of the Manchester and Hull repatriation ?—1That does not appear here in this report... 11305. No, but you must take also into consideration the immense amount of money spent on the journeys, of these people from the remote parts of Russia to the coast?—Yes. 11306. So there is a great wastage there; and also* coming Iback to my original point it seems to me that this, gentleman, your friend, could hardly be accurate in saying the trade would entirely disappear or go to* Germany if the alien immigration were restricted )— " In the course of time " were his words. If he had not the supply of such labour as would be willing to do the- work that he wanted 'done, and he was specially re- ferring to the adaptability of the Jew. He will take up work and will do work under different conditions that fit him to undertake certain work; new machinery,, and all that sort of thing. 11307. You said that time would set things right with regard to overcrowding. You said, let the people- remain as they are and time would do the rest. But surely time, as we see things now, is making it worse %— Excuse me, that was a remark with regard to my own dwellings, and in connection with the man with the- six children. "What would you do," I was asked. I said I would not turn him out in the street; that is an impossibility, but if I was the public authority I would, put an embargo on that house, and say, "No more- persons shall go into it; we will not turn you out, we will give you time gradually to grow up and get away before anyone else is allowed to come." 11308. That is a municipal limitation of children %— It would com6 to that certainly, but not to any great extent. 11309. ([Mr. Norman.) There are one or two special! points I should like to deal with first. You raised a, rather interesting question about the docker. What time does the docker come to work ?—I believe his work actually commences at six in the morning. 11310. How early does he have to be at the dock gates in order to secure a chance of work ?—As early as* four o'clock. 11311. You suggest that that man should come in* by a workman's train ?—No, I do not quite suggest that. I do not think the difficulties are insuperable. There are trains very early, and there are trams, as you know, in some parts of London running all night. 11312. I think you did suggest that, because I under- stood you to suggest that the docker would do it ?—He could do it. 11313. My friend, Major Evans Gordon, pointed out these men were being dispossessed, and your reply to that was that they should live outside and come in by workmen's trains 1—Yes, I think so ; in the case of the docker he would be the man who would be most hardly touched, but I specially mentioned such persons as:; market porters, and charwomen who have to be very early to work in the City. The docks themselves are comparatively speaking outside the centre of London. 11314. My point is that we have always looked upon, the docker as the most unfortunate member of the hard- working community ; he is very poor, and, as a rule, , has great difficulty in getting work. He has to be there at an almost impossible hour in the morning, and I must say I was astonished that you should suggest he- should come in by a workmen's train ?—Are you aware that the; docks are to-day managed in a very different way from what; they were 10 years ago. They have now what they call " A " class, " B " class, and " C " class. The "A" class and the "B " class are safe togetworkj.. and they need not come until it is time to go to work! It is the men in the uncertain class who have to go* very early—admittedly the poorest of the men, and those who are most needy. 11315. Therefore they would be the least ablefto* afford the fares for workmen's tickets ?—1That is so.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 377 11316. It presses on the poorest class of our own people—Yes, but it has never been suggested that Poplar is so overcrowded that the docker cannot find room. 11317. It has been very often suggested during the sittings of this Commission, that the people who work at the docks are one class that are being pressed out of their houses %—I should not think that that applies very widely. I should have thought not, and I should have said it did not. 11318. Would you not say if there is any question of choice as to who is to live near his work, that our own people should have the first choice ?—I am afraid I am rather a cosmopolitan. I am not disposed to use the expression " our own people " very much. I should be disposed to accept the alien after he has been here a little time as one of our own people. 11319. After he has been here how long ?—When he has learned the language, and is able to assimilate himself with the people. 11320. How long would you give him to do that h— Many of them could do it in one year, but certainly a few years would be quite sufficient. 11321. Are you aware that we have had evidence at the last sitting but one of this Commission, from a gentleman, a School Board Inspector, who said there were whole streets in his district inhabited by aliens who could speak no English, and most of them very little ?—I am quite aware of that fact myself. 11322. Then you would not claim those for " our own people ? "—No, they are evidently new comers. 11323. Another point you have touched upon which is an interesting one, which has often been raised here, is this : you have suggested as one possible cure for the concentration some form of dissemination, have you not 1—1 think that would be a cure, if it could be carried out, but I see enormous difficulties. 11324. Even if it could be carried out, so long as this influx is not stopped more or less (nobody has suggested it should be stopped entirely), would not your process of dissemination simply be to create in time, and in a fresh place, the evil which you are curing in this place*?—No, because I think the concentration is so tremendous in the Eastern part of London, that if it could be dealt with throughout England, it would become almost inappreciable. 11325. It is beginning to be heard of in certain provincial towns now ?—I know it is. 11326. Therefore, if you begin by turning the hose on these places, do not you think you would very soon have an outcry similar in kind to the outcry which is raised in the East End of London now 1—I do not think so, because I think the Jewish people themselves— who are, after all, the best helpers we can have—would take care that there should not be, if it was possible to avoid it, this great concentration. 11327. They have not done it here in London ?— They did not begin soon enough. 11328. You think they might adopt a different method in the provincial towns to what has proved so unsatisfactory in London 2—They have no legal status to prevent people crowding together. They can only appeal to reason. They have no legal power. 11329. That, I think, is a little wide of the point we are discussing at this moment, which is whether the same evils would not arise at whatever point this stream was directed to h—There would be greater enlightenment. 11330. On whose part %—The community in general. 11331. That is too vague. Cannot you be a little more precise 1—I think the great help we want, and which we should get, would come from the Jewish people themselves. They are perfectly alive to it. I do not believe there is a Jewish Authority in London, and I have spoken to many, who does not see the evils which are likely to arise from this, and which have arisen from this great concentration, as well as we do, and will do their best in days to come to distribute and dis- seminate these people—therefore, that is an enlightened opinion. , 11332. That is distribution and not dissemination. 6144. That brings me back again to the point. This seems Mr. J. to me an important point: the more enlightenment Broivn, j.p. they bring to bear upon it, the more chance there must be of raising this evil in other places ?—Not if the people 16 Dec. 1902. are more enlightened. Supposing a number of Jews go down to Leeds, the Authorities at Leeds know what has happened in London. They know what we all admit—that there has been too much crowding together in one district, and surely the Jewish Authorities down there would be prepared to give the strongest and best advice they possibly could ; and we have reason to know that strong advice given-by the Jewish Authori- ties is very much listened to; they have much more power over their people than we have. 11333. If the figures Major Gordon quoted are accurate, there is something like a dozen in a year they have persuaded to go away ?—I do not under- stand these figures, but as far as London is concerned, the thing has been hitherto almost impossible. 11334. Then, in spite of this growing enlightenment of opinion, the evil has gone on increasing year by year 1 —I do not know that it is increasing ; it exists certainly to a very large extent. 11335. For instance, with regard to the mines; you spoke of the possibility of these men working in the mines —Yes. 11336. Are you aware that the Home Secretary has promised to prohibit the working in the mines of South Wales of aliens, who cannot speak either English or Welsh %—He has not yet done it, at all events. I know there has been some talk of it; but I am not aware he has committed himself as far as that. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I am not aware of it either. (Witness.) Howt can he prevent it ? 11337. (Mr. Norman.) I am not an official of the Home Office, but perhaps Sir Kenelm Digby can tell us. A question was put in the House of Commons, and, although I have not the answer with me, I was present. I am speaking from memory ; but. subject to correction, my colleague Mr. David Thomas put that question. There had been a man killed in a Welsh mine because he was entirely unable to obey the orders,, because he could not read either of the languages in which the orders were posted, and certainly my recollec- tion is that the Home Secretary gave some sort of a promise that it should be practically illegal for a man to work in the mines who could not read the regulations made for the common safety h—Surely that power exists to day, does it not 1 (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I remember the question, but not that answer. (Chairman.) I should think probably the Home Secretary said it was an evil that ought to be dealt with. (Mr. Norman.) It was something more definite than that. You remember the question. Sir Kenelm (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I remember there was a question*. and there have been a good many questions on that same subject. I do not know whether I remember this specific one. It is a fact we are perfectly familiar with at the Home Office. (The Wit7iess.) Surely the law would stop that now. Injury to life and limb of other people can|be dealt with. It is a danger to humanity that canfbe dealt with under the Common Law. 11338. (Mr. Norman.) I am not talking of the danger to humanity ?—Whenever a man goes into a mine who cannot read a notice, and does not know how to deal with his lamp, he is a common danger.j^ l 11339. I will leave that matter between, you and Sir Kenelm Digby, because 1 suggest that has been forbidden. You say it obviously can be forbidden, and Sir Kenelm ridicules the idea. (Chairman.) I think the witness means the mine- owner can say, " I have a right to prevent such a person comirfg in," and Sir Kenelm Digby says it is not a matter for the Home Secretary, but it is a matter for the mine-owner to do it. 11340. (Major Evans Gordon.) I suppose there would be a penalty on the mine-owner if he did employ a man who was a public danger ?—Yes. 3 B378 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ' J: '-'(Sir Kenelm Digby.) If it was a violation of the law Bf&wny j.vy or the general rules with regard to mines. l6 Bee 1902 11341. (Mr. Norman.) The point is an important ' one in this connection, because you have suggested that to work in the mines would be one method of dissemination '?—It is a method of dissemination that is actually going on to-day, and men are going to the mines. 11342. (Major Evans Gordon.) You call it dissemi- nation, jbut it is another movement directed towards the mines ;.?—I will use the word " movement." 11343. It is hardly right to call it dissemination. Dissemination is something like deliberately taking them ,out of the country and finding employment in the •mines,?—Is it not disseminating aliens or Jews amongst other workmen, that is, not keeping ihem so much in a centre. " , 11344. (Chairman.) Dilution of the evil ?—'Yes, that is it. 11345. (Mr. Norman.) You wTould not suggest that these people should be disseminated as workmen in the mines until they had become what you call our own people ?—Until they know how to write and read, and know how to handle the miner's lamp. 11346. During the three years which you give as the outside limit for them to become our own people, they must live in London or some other centre ?— They live amongst their own people, but that is the cause of the overcrowding amongst them. 11347. During those three years, whilst they live with their own people, there is very considerable scope for these evils to arise and develope ?—Yes, and they do arise from it, no doubt. 11348. Now a question about this work that the "Englishman will not do. This is rather new and very ^ interesting. Would you please tell us a little more ' ;about this particular class of work that the Englishman wrill not do, and the wages which are paid for it ?-— ;I cannot tell you the wages which are paid for it. The •reference I made was to the fact that the Englishman wants to be an engineer, or a stoker, or a carpenter, -or a bricklayer, or a plasterer, or a dock labourer—all vthose kinds of trades ; but that the foreigner suits •himself very much to the indoor trades—shoemaking, tailoring, capmaking, and things of that sort. 11349. As a matter of general principle I am sure • the Commission are aware of that, but you do not know what the wages were that these Englishmen would not work for in this case ?—I do not think it is . a question of wages at all. 11350. You could not tell us what the figure is?— The figure that was mentioned to me as the general run of wages was about 30s. a week. .. .. 11351. (Chairman.) They would not do the class of • work, I understand you to say?—They would not do the class of work. They look upon it as manual work which is beneath them. 11352. (Mr. Norman.) Speaking roughly and ap- proximately, what proportion of the alien population of the East End of London would you think were • earning 30s. a week ?—That is a very difficult question^ 11353. It is a very difficult question and perhaps an •unfair one ?—I would rather put it another way, that I think the bulk of the alien men, after they have been in England sufficiently long to know their trades, receive wages' quite equal to the English mechanic, ranging from 25s. to 40s. per week, and taking the average, t should say about 30s. per week. 11354. After they have learnt their trades ?—After they know their trades. So many of them, as you know (you have had plenty of evidence of it), come here as " greeners " and they work for a few shillings a week for a year. 11355. Yes, we know all about that, this is very striking. This constant and growing stream .of im- migrants into this country after being here a short time reach the position of men working at wages from 30s. to 40s. a week ?—Taking the average I should say 30s. a week. 11356. That is a very striking statement, and you would «ot make it, I am sure, without good ground ?— No, I have had plenty of evidence of these aliens coming before us on a question of supporting their imbeciles or lunatics, and we always inquire as to their circum- stances, and the figures are generally given running from, say, 18s. to 35s. a week. 11357. You are aware that this is counter to a good deal of evidence we have had here, which has been, to the effect that the alien is ready and willing and happy to do work at much lower wages than the Englishman, and that therefore he enables the English consumer to buy goods placed upon the market at a very very low price. That has been the bulk of the evidence we have had ?—I do not think it is correct at all except in the early years of the man's living in England— during the first three or four years of his life here. 11358. Then your statement is that practically the whole inflow (I do not know that you make any exception) of these aliens coming in in great numbers, in a short time are working in this country at wages from 30s. to 40s. a week which Englishmen cannot be found to do ?— That is true with a little care. You see, the 40s. is tie extreme. I have never met a case of their earning more, and 40s. per week is the wage of the Englishman who follows a higher class of trade, such as engineers and stokers, and work of that kind. The Jew or the alien does not take up with those trades ; he comes amongst his own people, and he is taught a trade that ranks as a second or third-class trade. I think that is the better way of putting it. 11359. I want to get this very striking statement of yours into a concrete form ?—I think you may take it that the wages of the average of these alien men, after they have been in England three or four years, run from £l to 35s. a week. Those that touch 40s. are very few, and are hardly worth consideration. * 11360. Practically all the immigrants attain to that degree of prosperity ?—The clever ones among them— the able men. Of course, there are some who do work, and those are the men you hear of, who are never fit, and never reach the upper class, and therefore have to work for lower money, and do work for lower money, because they are unable to earn more. 11361. Then you do not at all agree with those wit- nesses who say that the aliens, who, by working for very low figures, enable a much cheaper class of goods to be offered in the market to the English consumer ?— No, as a general statement, I do not agree with it. 11362. (Chairman.) That-evidence is not inconsistent with this, because they may have been speaking of the greener period, when the men were working at lower wages ?—That is it. They come and work for 5s. a week for the first three menths. 11363. (Chairman.) So far, that is as Mr. Norman says—they work at a very low rate ?—Certainly ,they are learning their trade, just; as our own apprentices are, 11364. (Mr. Norman.) You spoke of the difficulty of distinguishing between the fit and the unfit. You are aware that that process which you regard as being so difficult has been regularly carried on in the United States ?—I do not quite know in what way you mean. In what way have they distinguished between the fit and the unfit ? 11365. There is a most careful process of selection and filtering of these people in the Port of New York ?— Do they send people back from there ? 11366. Oh, yes.—Many? 11367. "Many" is a relative term, but they send back some. There is a very severe filter ?—I have read their statistics, and I have been very much astonished at the very few they have turned back. 11368. The point is that the existence of the filter pre- vents the unfit from starting, because they know they oould not pass through the mesh?—I qaite agree, and if some such scheme as that could be provided the effect would not be so much here as the effect on the other »ide of the water. 11369. I am of your opinion?—That would be the chief value of any filter if you could put a filter, but I see tremendous difficulty about that. 11370. There has been no great difficulty found in the United States ?—I am afraid I have not been very much impressed with the statistics of the United States.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 379 I have not them here, and I do not remember very much about them, but I have been very much struck at the very few who are unable to pass the so-called filter. 11371. But it prevents a very large number pre- senting themselves for examination ?—I agree. 11372. Like a man who is radically unsound does not offer himself for life insurance ?—I agree that is so. 11373; What is to prevent us setting up a filter on the lines of that set up in the United States?—I am not at all sure that you would not do more harm than good. 11374. I am not speaking for the moment of whether we ought or ought not, but I am merely on the question of the difficulty, because you spoke of the difficulty of distinguishing between the fit and the unfit ?—Who is to distinguish ? Who is the man to say that a workman who lands to-day will not two years hence be a good mechanic and a valuable asset to London? To-day he may be a stupid-looking, intractable sort of man, I have seen heaps of them. I have had apprentices all my life. 11375. You said a moment ago that the existence of. this examination at the Port of New York undoubtedly prevented a great many undesirable people from pre- senting themselves ?—It prevents men going who have got a fear that they may be classed as unfit, and it makes the shipping companies careful. ,,113761 Do you regard that as an advantage or a disadvantage ?—I think it is a case of much ado about nothing. 11377. That also is a little vague, and I do not follow what you mean by that?—You are putting huge machinery into existence with apparently a very large amount of work to do, and it may turn out that the g#me was not worth the candle. 11378. That is not the view of the United States Government?—I know, I am quite aware of that. 11379. You consider the United States Government is misinformed about that ?—There are plenty of ways of getting into the United States, I imagine, without getting into the Port of New York. ,11380. We know 99 per cent, of the immigrants present themselves there ?—A very large quantity does, but there are a great many who go from other directions. I should not have thought it was so large a percentage as that. (Chairman.) The immigration through Canada and from Vancouver is enormous. Canada is the greatest route for immigration. (Major Evans Gordon.) Not the greatest. '11381. (Mr. Norman.) Not for alien immigration. I am speaking of European alien immigration?—It is very enormous from Vancouver. I have friends and members of my family in Vancouver, and they tell me that enormous number go over the border from the slightest cause. 11382. An enormous number of what kind of people ? —I do not say they are bad people at all. They are very valuable people probably. 11383. I know Vancouver very well, and that has nothing to do with the alien immigration in the sense in which we are discussing it here ?—Certainly not. 11384. Are you suggesting that Polish and Eussian Jews get into the United States from Vancouver ?— No, I am speaking of getting into the country. (Chairman.) Alien immigration, that is foreigners going to America. 11385. (Mr. Norman.) What I was discussing was the class of immigration we are dealing with at the moment ?—I am not referring to Eussians and Poles. I am referring to the transmission of men from one country to another. 11386. I am speaking of immigration into the Port of New York of that particular class of European aliens that, this Commission is principally dealing with ?-- That is another point. 11387. I want to know from you why it should be difficult for-us, as you said it was, to do what the United States are doing, and doing with satisfaction ?—You Mr. know probably more about the question than I do, but Brown I have read a good deal about these matters, and my general impression is that the filter that you speak of e * has practically failed. 11388. You have no personal knowledge?—No, nor has anyone. You cannot tell how many people it has kept, back in Europe that would otherwise have gone to America. It is only supposition. 11389. We have got a certain amount of evidence on this point. I am questioning you now on some- thing you have no personal knowledge of ?—No, I have no personal knowledge of it. 11390. Have you heard that in the United States the difficulty of dealing with some classes of these Polish and Eussian Jews has resulted in representations being made by the Jewish authorities, that so many cannot be received in the future there ?—No, I have not heard that except in the vaguest way by seeing para- graphs in the papers. 11391. If that was so, would you regard that as an element of added danger for us ?—Of course, it turns back the tide of immigration to us ; there is no doubt about it. < . : 11392. You said at the beginning of your evidence after the adjournment that in general terms the English population had been ousted in considerable districts by an alien population ?—I would rather use the word " replaced." I could not use any other word than that. I would not use the word " displaced," because I do not think it happens. 11393. Do you regard that spectacle as an English- man as a good thing—perhaps I ought not to ask you to speak as ? n Englishman, but as a cosmopolitan ?— I think it is uncortunate for the people who leave their old .haunts and homes, but that is something senti- mental. 11394. But what about the community with us ?— I cannot see myself any particular harm in it. 11395. You think it is a good thing ?—No, I do not say that. I do not think it is either a good or a bad thing. 11396. Then it is a matter of indifference?—I thihk so. 11397. You yourself would not care whether a considerable district of London were inhabited by the British race or by aliens ?—Yes, I would. 11398. Then it must be either good or bad or in- different ?—But on another ground. I think it is> a bad thing for one special class of people to be living in one spot of London. I think it is a danger to the community. It may be a far-off danger, but it is a serious danger just as I think it is a great danger for the rich people all to go up to the West and leave the poor people all in the East. That is equally as bad a danger. 11399. That consideration would take us a little too far ?—I feel strongly to get a large race of men, whom we call aliens, all living in one spot with similar views and similar interests is dangerous. 11400. You regard the present condition of things in Stepney as a dangerous condition ?—I do. 11401. (Chairman). With regard to this American question, I see on the first day of the Commission,, Mr. ^ Llewellyn Smith was asked at Question 263: 44 Will you now give us such figures as you have of objections ? "—that is the United States—" (a) The number of immigrants rejected by the United States in the year 1901 was 3,516. Of those, 22 were rejected as being idiots or insane ; 2,798 as being paupers or likely to become a public charge, that is the great bulk ; 309 ^ as diseased, coming under the loathsome or contagious disease; 327 as contract labourers, that is a great falling off as compared with previous years, and I am told, though I have no official knowledge of this, that it is due to some decisions of the Court which have knocked down the meaning of 4 contract to labour.' Seven are convicts, and 'others' are 53. That is a total of 3,516 out of a total immigration of 487,918. (Lord Rothschild.) That is not 1 per cent ?— (A.) No, it is not quite 1 per cent "?—These were the kind of figures I was referring to. 6144. 3 B 2380 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : J. 11402. I do not know whether these refer entirely Brown, j.p. to the port of New York or not---- 16 Ai e. 1902. H403. (Major Evans Gordon.) I can get you those — figures exactly ?—It would be very valuable. (Major Evans Gordon). I got them all from America. 11404. (Mr. Norman.) Since my Lord has been good enough to read those figures, I should like to point out again that in my questions I was laying particular stress on the fact that it is not the number of those actually sent back that is important, but it is the deterrent effect ?—We all admit that fully. 11405. (Chairman.) I think you are at one with Mr. Norman on that ?—Yes. 11406. The point is the number sent down from New York is 3,500 out of 487,000-- , 11407. (Mr. Norman.) The filter works, not in New York, but in Hamburg and the other places ?— Yes, I think we all agree to that. 11408. {Chairman.) The question arises rather as to what difficulty there is in doing this, and it was said in New York they decided it easily enough. Now with regard to another matter, can you tell us, if you take these average tenements, how many persons would be allotted properly to one set of rooms in the blocks ?— That entirely depends upon the ages of the children. 11409. Take a man and wife ?—A man and wife and two little children can sleep in one room comfortably and safely. 11410. How many rooms would a family have?— You are referring to the block dwelling. 11411. Yes ?—I should think the general average is two rooms and a scullery. 11412. A sitting-room?—A sitting-room which can be used as a bedroom and a scullery in which a bed can be put. 11413. How would that accommodation compare, do you think, with the average house that existed, and does exist now in a block, but as an entirely separate tenement ? This would be much smaller, "would, it not ?—It is smaller, hut in the larger house you will always find not only a family, but lodgers. 11414. Do you mean the old houses ?—The old fashioned houses with two rooms on the ground floor and two rooms upstairs. 11415. But when you are comparing house with house on either system you are taking each holding in a block as a house, and you are comparing, are you not, a smaller house with a far larger house ?—Yes, but I take the average of eight persons in the dwelling. Now, if you take the larger house, you would probably reduce that eight to about three, as the average in the dwelling you and I are speaking of. 11416. That is not quite my point. When you are looking at the accommodation so as to say whether there is overcrowding or not, and you say there are a smaller number of houses, I think you must take it that the present houses are smaller on the average than the old ones ?—Yes, I think, on the whole, you must; but I had a very vivid illustration the other way. There was a fire that took place in Brady Street about four years ago, when a father and nine or 10 children were all burned. The next day I went up to look at that house, and I found it the most ramshackle place you could imagine, with two rooms on the second floor abou nine feet square, let to one family, and this poor man who was burned with his children was on the uppei floor in two rooms not more than nine feet square, and I think there were 11 souls in those two rooms. 11417. That does not affect the question I am upon. I want to see how far your comparison of like with like is correct. The present accommodation is n-.t so great as it used to be if you have the same number of houses ? —I should think, taking the block dwellings, as a rule, they are smaller than the ordinary houses of bygone year-'. 11418. And, therefore, there is more overcrowding if the houses are the same in number ?—Yes, I think that would be a fair deduction, but, on the other side, there are newer sanitary appliances, which make that house very much more available than the old-fashioned house. It is a very relative question. 11419. (Major Evans Gordon.) Then in the blocks they are not allowed to take in lodgers and sublet corners of rooms ?—No, certainly not. In the dwellings next to my own office, there is a notice printed (and it had been there for months), " Anyone taking lodgers in these dwellings will be immediately dismissed." 11420. (Chairman.) You gave us as a practical remedy that as a man's family grows he requires more accommodation and instead of having two children he has got six, and you would lend him a room. Is the State to do that, or is the municipality to do that ? I should like you to reduce that to practice. You have a block of buildings ?—Yes. 11421. Are there married men there?—Yes. 11422. With families increasing ?—-Yes. 11423. How are you going to lend them a room ? Your rooms are all let, 1 hope ?—My rooms are all let. 11424. Then how are you going to lend them a room ?—The only thing we can do privately is to per- suade him to move out of a smaller dwelling into a larger one. 11425. That is not lending him a room. That means more rent ?—It means more rent and a great hardship on the man. 11426. Where is the municipality to step in ? Is the man to come and say, " I have been a good citizen, and I have six children—lend me a room for nothing. " It would be a premium on large families .?—You, my Lord, know the difficulties of all that even better than I do, but there is the fact that that has got to be dealt with. 11427. But you said you would lend him a room. Is it possible for the State or the municipality to be finding rooms rent free ? It is socialism, is it not ?—I would not take it on the socialistic ground at all. I would take it as producing safety for the community. 11428. Whatever it produces, you have first of all to get the room free from expense ?—I make the remark that that is where the municipality could come in and' do some good work. 11429. By putting it on the rates ?—They could build rooms, and if the man could not pay the money they could lend it. 11430. Qua those rooms he wQuld be a pauper ?—No, I do not think that. 11431. Very like it?—It only exists through a few- years of his life. 11432. He gets those rooms for nothing?—For a time, but he pledges his future earnings. 11433. Then he does not get them for nothing ?— He pledges his future earnings to pay that money back. The working man's difficulties cease when his children grow up. When his children are 14 years of age his difficulties cease. 11434. Do you suggest that the man who has theso rooms found him shall pay nothing in the present, but shall become liable to pay some future obligation ?— Certainly. T know it sounds very socialistic, but I cannot see any other way out of it. 11435. There is a little tinge of socialism in it?—It is not intended to be socialistic. I want to meet the difficulty that exists. May I mention another difficulty about this matter, that the landlords labour under. The law between landlord and tenant to-day is most unsatisfactory. If I have a case of a bad tenant either by overcrowding, unnecessarily overcrowding, I cannot get that tenant out of my buildings under six weeks though he is a weekly tenant, and during that six weeks he will absolutely remain without paying any rent. I must go to the Courts. I must wait another week. Then I must give another notice. Then that notice must be read over to the man, and he must admit he understands it, and we have to find a man to do that* and we have to circulate all over London before we pitch upon him 11436. What do you suggest ?—I suggest the law should be very much more stringent in this matter. 11437. Do not you see you are a good landlord, but there are bad landlords, and supposing the bad landlord wanted to take advantage of the stringent law and turn a tenant out into the street without any place to go to, the law is capable of abuse ?—Yes, I admit the difficulty. (Chairman.) We have listened to your evidence with very great interest, and we thank you for it.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE* 381 Mr. Philip Walter, called; and Examined. 11438. (Major Evans Gordon.) Are you a resident of ^Stepney ?—Yes. 11439. You have lived there how many years 1— Sixty-three years. 11440. You live at Oxford Street, Stepney ?—Yes 11441. There is one point you can help the Com- mission on a little, I think, which you are specially acquainted with Can you give us a sketch of your neighbourhood when you first knew it ?—When first I knew it, it was what now I should describe as a re- spectable middle class and working class street. 11442. That is Oxford Street ?—Yes. 11443. And that neighbourhood generally %—That ^neighbourhood generally. The squares, Sidney Square ^nd Bedford Square, contained people of a very good ^character, such as proctors of Doctors' Commons and shipbrokers and the like. 11444. What happened after that ?—Then in the nearly fifties the foreigners introduced houses of bad character. Others, not necessarily foreigners, but others of all nationalities followed in the same line, until, to make a big jump of it, in 1887-- 11445. That process went on from the fifties till 1887 ?—Yes. 11446. Disorderly houses in certain streets ?—Yes. Oxford Street has about 300 houses in it. There were .about*20 houses of this character, very pronounced. 11447. At the west end of Oxford Street ?—Yes, on the borders of W^hitechapel parish. There were a few other streets altogether following on—a kind of fringe, making up throughout the Stepney Division, I should think, about 80 or 90 disorderly houses. They were so pronounced in their character that they appeared to be a very much greater extent than they were, and by the indulgence of this Commission I should like to take this opportunity of making a statement in connec- tion with that. I Saw in the press a statement vilifying the character of the inhabitants of the East End, in which it was said that crimes of a nameless character {those-were the words used), " nameless crimes," " name- less vices," were performed about there. In my experi- ence and observation—I live on the very borders where this vice was going on—I never heard of such a thing as " nameless vice." 11448. They were disorderly houses ?—They were disorderly houses and not nameless vices. 11449. Tell us what happened in 1887 ?—I think the Criminal Law Amendment Act had come into force, and I know that Mr. Frederick Charrington, of the Mission Hall in the Mile End Boad, swrooped down upon the brothels in the autumn of that jubilee year, and before a few months had elapsed, the whole neighbour- hood was clear of them. 11450. Of those disorderly houses ?—Yes, some few were convicted and the rest flogged. There wrere terrible scenes. 11451. That was a movement conducted by the philanthropist and reformer, Mr. Frederick Char- rington ?—It was commenced by him. 11452. You were personally acquainted with what was going on, and, in fact, you assisted him ?—Yes. I may say I have always taken a great interest in social matters, and I belonged to an association which was rather laughed at at the time called the Social Purity League, and I have taken very much part in opposing State legalised vice. It is a remarkable thing that those brothel keepers were almost starting a crusade or a movement in favour of getting themselves legalised on the same lines as the maison pauvre in France ; when Mr. Frederick Charrington, without being asked, came to our aid and expatriated the lot. 11453. Then what happened after these houses were cleared of disorderly characters ?— The landlords lost a considerable amount of rent, because these brothel keepers paid good rents. Some Christians and some English Jews got into those houses. 11454. Christians and Jews took the houses :— Christians and Jews took the houses. Later on, years afterwards, the English Jews and English Christians ^r p got shoved out by the aliens, and I have heard it said, Walter. and I have read it quite recently from the author of the nameless vice " letter, that the aliens introduced a 16 Dec. 1902, high moral code. They had as much hand in intra- -—■ ducing a high moral code as I had in introducing Pharaoh into Egypt. They had nothing to do with it. They came in there, they will pay a good rent, they will pay almost equal to what the brothel keeper will pay, and they are quite as profitable. While I am on the point, I want to tell you how they pay the rent. People say it is by their frugality, by their sobriety, by their in- dustry. Nothing of the sort. They learn the code in the Eastern part of Europe, and they learn two things, one is that they never will want a meal or a roof over their heads while they are here, because they know the high-class English Jewish charities will aid them, and must aid them as it were. They know that. If they do not know it, we know it, that while the poor English- man may fall at the roadside and die, a Jew never dies of poverty and wxant. They know that when they come here. They get a house by some means and they sublet ; it is by the subletting of the rooms they pay the rent. 11455. My point is now simply that those streets were cleared of houses of disorderly character before the alien immigration came in ?—Long before that. 11456. With regard to the other results, the change in the character of the river and the docks made a* considerable alteration in the morality of the streets, did not it 2—Yes. St. George's-in-the-East was the sailor town of London. Ships come there from long voyages, and the sailors had long purses, and a certain class of houses accommodated them. The ships have increased in tonnage and in speed, and some have gone lower down the river. The necessity for the use—I am not a necessitarian from the moral point of view— of those houses no longer exists, because they are not required by sailors who mostly work on weekly boats. 11457. So that has brought about a change ?—A total revolution of St. George's-in-the-East. 11458. All those disorderly sailors' houses have gone 7 —Yes. 11459. You would not say from your 63 years experience that this change in the moral tone of the streets is in any way due to alien immigration ?—No, I have no" doubt about it, because it is a thing I have closely observed all through my life, and I have seen all this going on. 11460. But that change would have gone on inde- pendent of alien immigration ?—Most certainly. It was the growing morality. 11461. And is going on now in parts where the aliens have not penetrated ?—Yes, the local authorities are more vigilant in looking out for disorderly houses. The aliens had nothing to do with it. 11462. The neighbourhood where you live, the immediate neighbourhood of Oxford Street, has become entirely alien 2—Yes, entirely alien; I am isolated. 11463. All your English friends have gone from there 1—They have all gone except foiir. 11464. All except four within a radius of what ?— Within a radius of 150 yards or so. , 11465. Bound your house ?—Yes. 11466. Has that, in your opinion, been attended by hardship from your personal knowledge. I do not want hearsay, but only what you know personally ?— I know so many cases of people being bought out de- liberately, not paid for going out,, but money paid to their landlords to get them out. 11467. How is it you have not been turned out ?— Because my landlord is a Christian Englishman, who would not turn an Englishman out. The only row of English tenants in the street is under my landlord. He would not turn them out. 11468. You say the change in the people who live in the houses is often accompanied by a change of owner- ship of the houses ?—It is. The fact of the lease falling in has contributed much to that. Just incidentally38S* ROYAL COMMISSION . ON ALIEN; IMMIGRATION : Mr. P. Walter. I mention that as one of the class of men turned out of his house. You have had evidence of that before you ; turned out of the house by an alien, and he has 16 Dec. 1902. nQj. a roof QVer ^ 11469. You would say from your experience, that working men having to go and live in these far away neighbourhoods is a hardship on them 1—Yes. 11470. Would you say, as the last witness said, i t is a matter of, sentiment or real hardship I do not wish to cast any reflection upon the last witness, but Ivheard that gentleman's opinion, or statement, with a feeling of intense indignation. I cannot think he knew that he said it. I can say it is nothing of the sort. The numerous trades in London require the working people to live on the spot. What is good for the alien is good for the Englishman. If I might appeal to this Commission, I want to say a last word from an East-ender, that the feeling of disappointment and pain mingled with resentment, the feeling of intense- vexation among the exiled is greater than anybody in the quietude of this room can realise. Many people have gone away, and many remain with a grudge. I. want that to be noted. I want this Commission to ask me if it will, and if not I will not venture to crave their indulgence, to make a suggestion or two as to what might be done to ameliorate the condition of the people by stopping this continued rally of fresh, cheap labour, which cuts the Englishman's labour down where he remains, and drives him out into the suburbs. I can speak to the bitter feeling. I can hear voices down our way continually telling me of one point. They say there are rich English Jews, the wealthy enlightened leaders of the world, and they say, " Why do these rich, enlightened men, the men of finance, the men of culture, give any shade of encouragement to this alien immi- gration 1 " 11471. {Chairman.), Because they are charitable ?—I Say they do not give any shade of encouragement, but the people say they could discourage it. If the Jewish people of light and leading were to put their veto on the immigrants and would say, "When you land in this country you will get no charity any more than an Englishman," the immigration would stop. 11472. {Major Evans Gordon.) Would you say they cbuld do anything in the way of moving them from these neighbourhoods. Would that cause any relief to ; the East End No, the alien is gregarious, and they will live near one another, and they will oust Englishmen if they can. 11473. Broadly speaking, do you say that this displacement which has gone on has caused real hardship and suffering to the people displaced ?—I know several people, I have a list here which I will not trouble the Commission with, of people who have died broken hearted, elderly men. I shall not die broken hearted, because I have no responsibility in the matter. I, have lost my wife, and that is enough for me. 11474. But that is a great contention, and there & unquestionably a strong feeling about this displacement T —It is deep if it is not loud. 11475. Do you think if there is a choice of living in this neighbourhood the English working man should have the first choice —They are, at least, our own? countrymen. Work is always difficult to obtain down* in the East End or anywhere else. There are thousands of people out of work. My brother was on a visit last night to a neighbour, and he found the man out of work. I went out early this morning,* and everywhere- there are people out of work. People are in distress* We do not want, fresh labour, or cheap labour down? there, to produce cheap things. We want purchasers^ employers. Everybody is craving for a job, and we want no more recruits/for the labour market. We are overwhelmed by them. It is the greatest mistake in the wbrld. It is a topsy-turvy argunient. 11476. {Mr, Norman.) Did you happen to notice what Mr. Brown, the last witness, said about—the high wages that the great majority of these aliens earn after they have been here a very short time *1—Yes. 11477. Do you agree with that 1—No. I would venture to explain, in my humble way, what I can about these aliens working. I know the name of thai firm Mr. Brown speaks of, and I know where the place- is, but it is not my place to name it. It amounts to- this : in those clothing and tailoring trades, men be- come pressers, and what not, and after a man has learnt the trade, and has improved, he works furiously for & few years. When he gets to my age he is an old crock,, and he could not work as hard as I do for the world. He is used up. When he is 40 he is used up. 11478. {Chairman.) What was the trade Mr. Browik referred to?—Tailoring and cap making. The point is this, that most likely they are young middle-aged men from 25 to 35. At that time of life they do work furiously, and perhaps by their work they may make 30s. a week, but as to saying they cannot get Englishmen to do the work, it is out of my know- ledge. You can get Englishmen to do any work if you? pay them well, There is no better man in the world, than an Englishman, except perhaps a Scotchman. 11479. {Mr.Norman.) You are very familiar, from your life-long residence in this neighbourhood, with the conditions of life and residence there h—Yes, too. well. 11480. You would say, then, that in your view there- is no foundation for the statement that the great majority of the aliens after a short time earn from 25s. to 40s, a» week, at doing work which Englishmen cannot and" will not do ?—Englishmen will do anything. 11481. Is that statement, in your knowledge, correct or incorrect 1—It is totally incorrect. I should like to state to the Commission that there is great suffering and pain there. TWENTY-EIGHT HJ|D A Y, Thursday, 18ith December 1902. present : , Sir Kenelm Digby, k.c.b. {Chairman). The Bight Hon. Lord Rothschild. I H. T. Norman, Esq., m.p. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. | William Yallance, Esq. Mr. Edgar Harper, recalled. 11482. (Major Evans Gordon.) I 'had better go back mation to the alien population, by including the Mr. E. fco point I was> on. We were at page 6 in, conjunc- children of aliens born in this country—I had arrived Harper. tion with -the Table on page 7. I understand you have at that estimate by taking the percentage of the natural "—" 9 rr0t a correction to make with regard to the manner in increase rate, or excess of births over deaths for all 18 Dec. iyu^- vou took out the percentages?—Yes, if you London. That was my original plan, but it had escaped please. I stated on Monday last that the rate of natural my memory at the time that the figures of the similar increase that I had used to arrive at a closer approxi- increase rate for these registration districts that -areMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 383 aiiow being, dealt with, were subsequently dfrawn to my notice, and have presented such extraordinary varia- tions that I have felt bound to adopt them instead of an average rate, which, in the first instance, I thought would be best. They vary from 18*35 per cent, in Whitechapel Registration District to as low as 8*4 per •ceiit- in Stepney Registration District. 11483. (Lord Rothsdhild.) Is that the increase ?—That is the increase —the excess of births over deaths. 11484,. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The excess of births over deaths is 18*35 per cent, in Whitechapel Registration District,?-—Yes, and 8:4 in Stepney—those >are the two ^extremes* 11485.,■ (Major" Evans-Gordon.) You have four ?-—I 3iave. five altogether. 11486, Will you give us the five?—Whitechapel, -18*35 ; Mile End Old Town, 17*35 ; St. George's in the. -East, 16*24 ; Stepney, 8*4 ; and Bethnal Green, 14*44. May I just say one other word upon that ? Taking ithdse proportions I am still perfectly safe, because they include the average rate of increase over the whole of each district including British born as well as alien population. The actual fact is no doubt somewhat in •excess of my figures, but how much in excess, I am Tunable to say. . 11487. (Sir Kenelm Digby,) Therefore, your figure is well within the mark?—Yes, it is within the mark. 11488. {Major Evans Gordon.) You did not give us Ximehouse?—That is identical with the Stepney "Registration District. 11489. 8*4?—Yes. 11490. Lknehouse is included, which is entirely an ^English population?—Mostly an English population. 11491. The immigration has not penetrated out there, sas yet?—No,, it is only just beginning. 11492. Will you give us the normal increase all over ILondon?—11*59. 11493. That is London generally ?—Yes. 11494. That is the natural increase ?—Yes. 11495. These figures you have given us would poinffc , to an abnormal increase of population in the alien ^affected district ?—Yes, a large abnormal increase over the average. - 11496. In your opinion, if *he alien population were •counted exclusively without- taking in the whole popuia- • tion, these figures would therefore be larger than they vcome out now ?—Including children of aliens born in England, yes* distinctly larger. ., 11497., Then, coupled with that,; we have got a low death, rate among the, alienr children?—Yes, I believe that* is so. , 11^98, rWe; .have had that from Dr. Shirley Murphy w.d others?—-Yes. v 11499. A low death-rate and a high birth rate ?—Ye« 11500. So it would point to your figures, generally .speaking, being well within the mark—your increased estimate ?—Yes, I feel that is so. 115,01. Then I will leave that point. We will go on to where you stopped ?—-That was in the middle of page 11. 11502. You left out one remark which I would like to have down—that this Table—referring to the Table we have, just discussed on page 7—-shows that the alien population amounts to 43*90 per cent, of the total in the registration district of Whitechapel, and 31*53 per -cent. in bt. George's-in-the-East?—Yes. I was going on to say that the increases in rent shown in those figures are amounts only, and with a view of showing the proportion of the increase to the actual amount < ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION m. E.. . Harpor. 18PD€»c.,11302;W Ih'Mile'End;(New Town- out of 15 districts, 7 exceeded. 50 piep^cent, and'-7 exceeded• 30 per cent., but not 50 per ^eri^^theMgHest'percentage'being 73*3. In G-ood- niajifs Fielis^Miere Were-four districts exceeding 50 per cent-., th&* highest being 71*2 per cent.: In Mile End Old tfowiir WjeSterh Bub-district, there were also four district's exceeding 50 per cent., the highest being 66*4. In^' the whole Borough of Stepney 47 enumeration dis- trici: s exceed • 50 - per cent, of overcrowding, and 68 exceeded :30. per cent. , • but not- 50 per cent. 3-1569. [{Sir Kewlrn Digby.) I do not quite under- stand that No. 4 Table. Is that right ?—-Yes. My idea in-putting, it. in that way was this :that anything, over 30 . per. cent, was bad overcrowdinganything over 50 per; -cent. was atrocious overcrowding. 11570. Then Column 4 and Column 6 overlap to some / extent ?•—Yes, they do. 11571.* (Major Evans-Gordon.) So that these figures which you have-just shown us show that during the last ten??years the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney is the only one in which the proportion of overcrowding to its total .population, has incr eased ?—Yes. 11572. That contradicts the statement we had from a witness, Mr. Brown, the other day, that the overcrowd- ing was equally bad in. other parts of London ?—It hardly contradicts it, except in regard to increase. Stepney is the only district where it is increasing, but at the moment I think there is one other borough— Fiin&bury—where the actual percentage of overcrowd- ing is very nearly as bad. 11573. Is that foreign inhabited—Italians ?—To nothing like the same extent that Stepney is; The percentage for Einsbury is 45*6, and for Stepney 47*4 ; So Stepney is actually the worst, but very little wdrse than Finsbury at the moment.The difference between them is that Einsbury is improving and Step- ney is deteriorating in this respect. 11574. Now we go to locomotion facilities ?—Much has been, done in the last 10 years to increase the facilities « for taking workmen out of the central districts by means of workmen's trains and trams, but it would appear that whatever relief is afforded by this means is more than overbalanced by the continuous influx of alien immir grants. I have prepared two tables, 5a and 5b, showing the increased facilities afforded by the workmen's train and tram: services. Table 5a shows the workmen's, train services, and fares,: in 1894 and 1902 of railways with stations adjacent to this particular area. That is the Great Eastern, the London, Tilbury, and Southend, and the Metropolitan District, railways. It will be seen that the number of workmen's trains has increased from 43 to 90 |n the eight years, or just doubled. Table 5b shows the workmen's tram service run between Poplar and 4^1%ate aiid Stratford and Aldgate, in 1895 -.and/1902.. •• It will be seen that on the Poplar and Aldgate route the number of these trams running to Aldgate has increased from 21, run at intervals of 45 minuted between the hours of-6.15 a.m. and 9 p.m., to 28, run at intervals of eight minutes between the hours of 4 and 7.40 a.m.; and on the Stratfbrd andAldgate route'from l8, run at intervals of 48 minutes between the hours of 6/15 a.m» and 7.51 p.m.; ;to 25, run at intervals of 10 minutes between the hours-ofrS ^nd^7.25 a/m. It will be seen" that the new service bf workmen's trams, although not considerably increased as regards numbers, has become very much more effective since 1895. ; Thetiines of starting are much/earlier| >anhat. / / , , •' < 11576:^ No^ yoiir conolusions ?-^-It only remains ,for me now to summarise and co-ordinate as far as possible, th^ separate items of fact I am able to submit to the Comr mission. This I have attempted to do in Table 6, which . shows1 how far the evils of overcrowding, rent raising,' and key money are coincident with the considerable in- ■ crease of. alien populationi In the registration district of Whitechapel, where 26'8 per cent, of the population, in 1891 and 43'9 per cent, in 1901 was alien, the per- centage of overcrowding has increased from 43 to 45*3, and is higher still in isolated parts of the district. Rent raising has occurred since 1890 in from 47 to 80 per cent, of the cases visited in the three specified parishes, Spital- fields, Mile End New Town, and Whitechapel, the aver- age increase ranging from 6Jd. to 8Jd. per week per room, and key money averaging from £10 lis. to £1212s. has been paid in from 46 to 64 per cent, of th© cases visited in the same three parishes. In the registration district of St. George's-in-the-East^ where 17*22 per cent, of the population in 1891 and 31'55 per cent. in». 1901 was alien, the percentage of overcrowding has in- creased from 39*8 to 45*7; rent raising has occurred in nearly every case visited, the average increase being. Is. 4d. per week per room; and key money averaging; £10 17s. has been paid in 70 per cent, of the cases visited. The comparatively small average increase in rent in the*- Whitechapel cases as compared with St. George's-in-the— East may be due to the fact that the process commenced at an earlier date in Whitechapel, and that a good deal of increase occurred prior to 1890. In that early period?' I have no means of obtaining information. 11577. That would lead to this, that as the alien popu- lation spreads these evils of high rent spread with it?—~ The figures show that inoontestably. 11578. Then, the figures for Mile End and Bethnal® Green *?—1These figures do not show similar coincidence,, because although the particulars as to rent raising yith this,par- • ticular district, and it is common knowledge that the Great, Eastern have provided a very much larger number of workmen's trains than any other railway company, and-iXNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 387 1 ^diiseqiieEitlf- Hi©' statement which is cori sot generally ? fP^Mt London is not correct when applied to this par- Ttieular district, ; / : (Mr.. Vallance.) Tfesling with Enumeration districts 6 and 7 in your Table 4b—" Perbentage of |>opu- -latioi^' overcrowded to total1 population - ?—-Which parish? Spitalfields, ;41>. In one case there is 63 per , i€ent. overcrowded ?—Yes. : ' jir v;tll588. So that there are less than 40 per cent.—that, - lisivto/sa^, <5&per cent.--innormal conditions P—That is Eniim 7, but that is not the worst. •^There is one where the population is 85J per cent., or -only; 14J per cent, of the population live under decent f conditions. 11589. Is that in that parish ?—Yes, in the parish of sSpitaTfields, -Enumeration District No* 11. 4 1 *1159©. Then if there are 1,778 persons inhabiting that -area ©numerated in Enumeration District 6, that means y that there ought, to be 60 per cent4 taken off that to t>ring the area into healthy conditions?-—No. I think if you were to take about 30 per cent, of the total popular- itjpn and reduce that 1,700 to> something; over 1,200 you .would probably do away with overcrowding altogether, ^Ibeeause three persons to a room constitutes overcrowd- >iug. If you remove one of those three you reduce the ?;aiumber to the proper level. p- 11591. (Major Evans-Gordon.) May I ask one more ^tiestion? You told us that in inquiries you had made .you found increases of rents in such districts as Poplar, .Limeihouse, Bow, and Bromley, and so on, outside the Immediate: area we are dealing with?—Yes. • -111592. (But - increases of rent not so high as have ^otilially gone on in the affected district ?—Not so large Either in amount or in proportion. '\...41^93- You? are acquainted with the Census figures? "v-r-Yes. , am 115944 You know, the . Census roughly showed 54,000 odd foreigners, exclusive of the children ?—Yes. ,\vull595. That amount of foreign population and the. dis- iplaoement it causes would: lead to an increased demand or house aceoanniodation in such districts as you men- ^tion^ Limeihouse,- Bow, and so forth, in the neighbouring ■'districts?—Yes,_ as a rule,, you may, take it that' the British population which has gone out to make way for the.alien immigration has gone east. ! ' 11596. And caused an increased demand for house '•foom there?—No doubt. 11597. And caused, consequently, a rise in rents?— Yes. . v (11598. With; the increased demand ?—Yes'; I have no good' '.deal" to do with it. There is .* stays' jp&ire• tifoaar one- cause. 1 11599. Wouid you say a large mass of population— varying froon 50,000 to 70,000—il ike this cannot be put ' *dftwh/into a pl&6e without affecting the heighbouringr •areas ?—-No, they certainly cannot. 11600. (Sir fcenelm Digby.) I suppose the tendency is to take them not only east, but considerably out of the metropolitan district altogether in some cases. They go to Brentwood, and such places as that ?—Only) in a very few instances. Walthamstow would be about the n&rthest, I should say—in fact, the limit of the Great Pattern workmen's train servfoe. Enfield. would be ^bout the furthest. . ,-u£L1601. (Major EvanstGordon.) The^st' step- is that ."the existing population in the East End. goes to a neigh- bouring district near; the East End, .and the existing ji^oipuflation in that district, is pushed further ouit?~! Y^es, you. very seldom find an in-dividual going from the ^iMertmost point to the'outermost. ' 11602. ($iT fiigpy.) But still there is a veiy ; ^U'Siderable tendency, to go right, into the country, are advantages in living in. the. country—health i° Y>s ; wherever there is that ,little ™an^A advantage where the .travelling money plus . is a • li#le -b^low .the.,pjld ' tj}©y go out. .. _ U6Q3. pne,'looks in that direction^; not ^perhaps for solution, but at aevents for: a miitigation' of the : mmmdty.; andjas .the facilities increase* so the' popula- tion may- get more wHely dispersed?—No doubt the increase: of loheap locomotion fa/cilitie^ will^do take, for instance, the BOolborn and Strand im- provement, which has caused enormous displacement? —Yes, and all the improvements made by the County Council since Boundary Street. • TT 65?" tDi° similar methods in th^se cases ? ——Until I left the^ Estates Department two years Ago that was the invariable practice whenever any displace- ment took place ; and I have no doubt it is beinff con- tinued now. 11609. That is to ,say, they try to do what they can to imd aocorpimodation for the people actually displaced ? —J- es. 1161.0 (Mr. Vallawx.) Is it a fact that the County Council do provide housing accommodation for those people who are displaced, but is it not rather a fact that the provision of accommodation is pehaps a year or two subsequently, and very few of those that are displaced ever find their way into the houses provided ? Inat is^an absolutely correct description of what was done; m the days of the Metropolitan Board of Works but in the case of the London County Council a ver^ great effort has been made, although the difficulties are vast, to provide accommodation before, at all events, the bulk of the displacement takes place. The Home Secretary in the case of Boundary Street gave per- jnission to the Council to acquire one small corner of • that area m the first instance, but he refused to allow them to acquire any more until they had put up blocks of dwellings on, that area acquired, and those blocks, a certain proportion of them, were kept vacant, and the, people who were turned out after that time had the option of . going into those new dwellings, or referring to the register I have mentioned1 and finding accommodation elsewhere in that way* Out . of the whole number of tenants who were displaced only 11 took advantage of the opportunity of going into the new dwellings given to them. 11611. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Although they had the option of doing it?—Yes, 11612. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was not the option ■ accompanied with, an increased 'rent on what they had been , paying %—Oh, no, the same rent. The Council charged the reiyts ruling in the neighbourhood ; and, as • a matter of fact, wherever they found what51 may c?Jl, a sweated rent,-directly-they took- over the pro- perty, they reduced it, even for ther old - property; z c: 2"388 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr E. 11613. Are not the Council and all these other dis- . harper. turbing influences that go on like School Boards, sup- -— posed to rehouse before they displace or to have equiva- l8tDec. 1902. lent accommodation ?-—They are bound'to comply with ------ the requirements of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and those requirements, wherever they reasonably can, do include such a proviso as you state. .11614. Now you said you kept a register, a very excellent system. Have you ever tried a similar system of finding accommodation in the East End of London? —-I have not tried it for any other purpose except a displacement for an improvement or clearance of an insanitary area, but I have no doubt it would be equally effective wherever it was tried. 11615. Do you suppose if you were to search the East End of London now you would find many vacant rooms?—I think, owing to the migratory habits of the population, except in the very darkest areas on the map I have handed in, I could always find a certain margin of vacant space. People who want to go, go, and they may not be followed by a tenant the next day. 11616. I understand from an agent that if a room is vacant you get 20 applications the next day ?—That is so, no doubt. 11617. (Mr. Vallance.) I understand you -to say of the population displaced, and who had the option of accommodation on this area, only 11 accepted?—Ok:t 11 tenants out of the 900. 11618. Is it within your knowledge whether these buildings are let ait rents which are remunerative to the Council itself?—They axe fixed according to the Council's Standing Order, which is to the effect that there shall be no charge on the county rate, and that the rents shall not exceed those ruling in the neigh- bourhood. • 11619. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) And they are also sub- ject to the Home Secretary—they are fixed by the scheme ?—In this particular scheme the rents were not fixed by the Secretary of State. 11620. (Mr. Vallance.) Do you know whether the whole of the cost of the site is included in the capital sum which forms the basis of the calculation?—The actual cost of acquiring the land is certainly not. It would not be fair to so include it. 11621. Then the municipal authority has been ex- pending largely the rates of London to provide this accommodation which has not been used except by a very small number of those who are displaced ?—No, I do riot quite agree with that. The municipal authority has not been providing these dwellings out of the rates. The rates have been subject to a heavy charge, but that heavy charge has been incurred by the clearing away of an unhealthy area, and when that unhealthy area is cleared awav the population as a whole gets the benefit of it. The clearance of that whiph confers the benefit displaces a large number of people ; and, there- fore, there is an obligation on tscjnmunity to pro- vide dwellings for those people, and that obligation is enforced by Parliament, as you know, and the way in . which the dwellings are provided is such as to avoid any charge for the dwellings upon the county rate. 11622. Had there not been a contemplated provisions* of further accommodation by the municipal authority* would the municipal authority have adopted precisely* that machinery which they have for the purpose of* clearing an unhealthy site ?—I am not sure I exactly follow the question. Do you mean if they h*d been, at liberty to sell the land free from restriction ? 11623. Assuming for a moment that an unhealthy area had to be dealt with, and it was not contemplated by the County Council to provide dwellings upon that, site, would the Council have adopted the system whiich* they do adopt, and etxpended public money for the pur- pose of clearing that site ?—I do not think I am entitled! to speak for the County Council as a body in answer to- that question ; and, besides, it is purely hypothetical. I do not know what the County Council might have^ done under different conditions. 11624. (Sir Kenelm /Bigby.) That is all provided for by the Housing of the Working Classes Act?—Yets>. under Statutes as they are now we must do it. 11625. The clearance takes place under that Act, anjdl the rehousing also?—Yes. 11626. (Mr. Vallance.) My point is that the Statutes, in force had the intention of providing for A, 33, C and D who were going to be displaced from a certain area,, and, as a fact, those people, except to a very small extent are not provided for, notwithstanding the public rates* pay considerable sums ?—So far as I am acquainted withe- Mie Statutes, and I am not a. lawyer, they do not pro- vide exactly that. They only provide that there should be ani amount of accommodation for that number oi' persons—not for those identical persons. 11627. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) What the Statutes con- template is that A, B, C, and D should have the oppor- tunity of turning in if they choose, but they do not; choose to turn in?—Ini most cases. There is an in- teresting case in connection with Clare Market where « block of dwellings was recently put up by the Council, which is almost entirely filled (I am told this. I do not know it of my own knowledge) by people who have been displaced from the old buildings. 11628. There have been cases of that kind, I know,, but that is one of the great difficulties no doubt—that from one cause or another what happened at Boundary- Street has happened in manly other cases ?—What hap- pened at Boundary Street is the rule;, and what hap- pened at Clare Market is the exception. 11629. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With reference to> those people in Boundary Street that were displaced, that was one of the worst areas in the whole of London t —At that time. 11630. When it was cleared?—Yes. 11631. Those sort of persons who were living about Jago Street were not 4ie sort of people who would go and live in Municipal dwellings. They lived like rats t —That is true. With very few exceptions, they were not. 11632. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) In any case it adds to the- tofal accommodation ?—Yes. /'The proceedings were adjourned for a short time.) Mr. Herbert Evans, called; and Exam'nec'. Mr. H. 11633. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you one of His Evans. Majesty's Assistant Inspectors of Factories ?—Yes, I - should like to say before I begin my evidence that with 18 Dec. 1902. the exception of probably much needed guidance in the way of my general conduct before this Commission, 1 have not consulted anybody in connection with the Home Office, or any member of the staff, and the evidence I shall give will be merely .my own opinions, which I formed when I was in Whiteehapel. From March 1895, to August, 1902,1 was employed inspecting workshops in East London^ principally within the Borough of Stepney, comprising the districts of Whiteehapel, St. George's-in-the-East, Spitalfields, Mile End, Shadwell, and Limehouse. 11634. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Your especial function is to inspect workshops, is it not ?—That is so. 11635. That is the business of the class of inspectors to whom you belong?—Yes. I also acted in the same capacity in West Ham and the greater portion of Essex county. A workshop is defined (Sec.- 149, 1 Ed. VII., ch. 22) as " any premises, room or place, not beiner a fact fry, in which premises, room or place, or within ilnv >r curtilage or precincts off which premises any manual labour is exercised by way of trade, or for purposes of gain, in or incidental to any of the following purposes, namely:—(1) The making of any article or of part of any article; or (2) the altering, repairing, ornamenting, or finishing of any article ; or (3) the- adapting for sale of any article ; and to, or over which premises, room or place the employer of the persons working therein 'has the right of access or control." Powers.—Sec. 119 : " To enter, inspect and examine- at all reasonable times, by day and night, a factory and a workshop, and every part thereof, when he has reason- able cause to believe that any person is employed therein, and to enter by day any place which he has; reasonable cause to believe to be a factory or workshop ; (b) to require the production of and to copy any docu- ment kept in pursuance of this Act: (c) to make suck examination and inquiry as may be necessary to ascer- tain whether the enactments for the time being in force relating to public health are complied with. Penalty* for obstruction, as by night, £20 ; by day, £5." That merely shows that our right is not only to enter work- shops, but to enter any place where it is thought work may be carried on1. 11636. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Private places ?—Yes„MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 389 , 11637. That includes home work?—Yes, any place where work might be carried on. 11538. All home work practically comes under your purview ?—That is so. The principal industries are wholesale and bespoke tailoring, the manufacture of boots and .-shoes, slippers, costumes, uniforms, caps, furs, inanities, and cabinet-making, their numerical im- portance being in the order stated. During the past seven and a-half years I have paid about 40,000 visits to workshops, and a large number to houses, to ascertain whether these constituted workshops, so that it may be said that I have been in the great majority of dwellings inj Stepney. The; visits have been made at irregular hours by day and night, both before and after midnight, and also on Sundays. 11639. On what principle do you act in order to ascer- tain whether these places constitute workshops?—A great many of them are known to the Department as workshops, and really in Stepney the work is so gene- rally in dwellings that we practically enter every house. If a certain state of affairs is found to exist in that par- ticular dwelling, then the place is registered as a work- shop or otherwise, as it may be. Thenj with regard to the action taken where offences have been discovered, it has,bee/i deemed sufficient to caution the offenders in large numbers of cases, in others proceedings have been instituted, and the magistrate's decision taken. 11640. Are you referring there, and in all that has preceded, to the aliens or to natives ?—To all, I think. The number of natives proceeded against is so insigni- ficant that it is scarcely worthy of inquiry. 11641. Practically, what you have said refers entirely to the foreign population!—Very largely. I should, say that the proceedings really in the case of natives, would probably not amount at the most to more than. 10 per cent. During 1901 about 100 such cases were determined, convictions being secured in nearly every case. Most of the offences were for working before or after the legal period, during specified meal hours, and. for neglecting to affix notices. Action of magistrates.— Most of the cases mentioned above were heard at Thames; Court, the remainder at Worship Street Court. I am scarcely competent to pass an opinion on the action of' magistrates, but with every humility I venture to think that the decision® have greatly helped administration, and thie powers have been judiciously exefcised. There have been a few unfortunate decisions, but these are in- significant and unworthy of serious notice. The trades affected through their principal members have openly expressed their appreciation; of the way in which offenders have been dealt with. "Without sympathetic; aid from this source progress would be considerably retarded. Thus I am glad to say that whenever cases, have been presented with care and fairness the prosecu- tion has had little cause for complaint, and the effect, has been widely known. It must be rememberedJn this connection that penalties have not had an educational or deterrent effect commensurate with their importance, simply because, with the exception of a small circle of persons directly concerned, the vast body of manufac- turers have remained in entire ignorance of any steps taken. I feel convinced that if means could be found (and they are accessible) for publishing particulars of prosecutions the adoption) of such a course would prove of much value. I have once or twice tried to induce managers of Jewish publications to notice these events, but little success has attended my efforts. 11642. (.Sir Kenelm Digby.) Reports get into the Press pretty freely, do they not?—I am afraid they do not. I have not noticed, except in very special cases, any publication whatever, but if they were reported, and known by the community of the East of Londojn, I Am quite sure it would have a very general effect in preventing the commission of offences. 11643. Are they not reported by the local papers cir- culating in East London 1—I have very rarely found one. 11644. (Lord Rothschild.) You suggest they should be discussed at the comers of the streets?—No, not quite that. I mean to suggest that, in my ©pinion, the edu- cation of the aliens as to the requirements of the statutes would have a deterrent effect so far as the commission of offences are concerned, and I think pub- lication in the Jewish press would be most desirable. That "has not taken place up to now. 11645. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What steps are taken to make aliens acquainted with the provisions of the Factory Act ?—When the place is first visited if they are found, to come within the provisions of the Mr. E. Factory Act, it is generally explained by the visiting Evans. inspector exactly what they are required to do, and -- they are supplied with the necessary notices to fix in 18 Dec. 1902. their. places, which are sufficient guidance^ It has generally been considered quite sufficient, and I have found it fairly well understood by these people. Some time ago an effort was made to publish these notices in Yiddish to suit the community there, but that was not approved of by the community itself ; they preferred, I think, the official publications by the Home Office. I never found in a single instance that they had put up any of the Yiddish papers, or used them under any cir- cumstances. 11646. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You are referring now ton the usual abstract of the Act ?—Yes. 11647. There is an obligation upon them to put upn that?—Yes. That abstract was published in Yiddish, and was offered at the same price as the ordinary- abstract, but nobody availed themselves of it. 11648. How long ago was that?—I think about five- years ago. 11649. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say you have once or twice tried to induce the manag-rs of Jewish publications to notice these events, but little success , has attended your efforts?—Yes. 11650. Was any reason given for refusal?-—No, except,.. I suppose, they did not think it was of sufficient im- porhance. The result of prosecution has been bene- ficenr, the effect has been real, consequently I have; observed improvement in the recognition of legal pro- visions. Prosecutions owe much to the generous inter- vention of employers and employed, and reliable aid is voluntarily furnished by sympathisers in many ways. Complaints are less frequent, and offences are numeri- cally less than a few years ago, remembering that the number of workshops and workers has been consider- ably augmented. I should like to say that the support t lpjral%).t0 1« oltonydeponds-^upb^y vpaea- tiMmfas* v«iired\by,|^©^uoe6^.'br--iailu^40.f-^e^start'iaate>'-®ere :.:ac©<^o-m©.-wli.©'iLgi^(Ms© sail restriction. aud regulations arid WP«fcrt W$. i^beir ; ^f> oigiMaiie©a is i painfully * . regulars 'That —■•■■ ureters to a?icaastaj%clias&of i:oecia>pier%>.who systematically os1tafcei.th4tfe theydmow ^©%ing-:asfrail:-5about*d&p-.i Acts•1 or (their provisions,,'.. In that, case: it depends on the. in- s^ecto^iib©ingia{bl0: io :j.d©ntily the. occupiers if the Act « is to succeed'; at. all... Such occupiers jar© beyond th© Tareiwh. of rJjaw :Q?wi2Xg; tb their migratoi^^cTxaracte^:. No j,soQ^er dOythey come under th© iiotic© of an inspector <^han theyiprojnptiy ;renxove^ to enjoy another interval of isolation and, freedom from restraint. When ari .occupier who really requires som© supervision is found, he im- to other.,quarters. Th© inspector '&ends on tli© nbtic^ but practically, it. is... six. mpiiths ^before 'he is found again by the inspector, the neces- sity of proving a month's occupation to secur© con- victim is :an obstacle to progress. Th© length, of time tmighft 'be'- a' factor" worth consideration in determining Jbhe penalty to be imposed, but it ought not to bar prb- /f ceedingSv a great many cases iit is utterly impos- ,-sibl© to prove how lonig a man has been in occupation, „ A^sfore .ihe is placed outside th© pale of the law . ■a][|^'g,ether. In the very cases where punishment is :?K(&ly; earned for repeated offences of this kind the prosecution is practically unable to proceed. $ome- . " times rent books are manufactured t,o show that occiipa- 4ibn is less than th© qualifying period. Bo long as &p, employer can conceal himself from view and evade ' v^up@rFi^1:alii, !so long''doe®' lie practise those habits which itis jhoped to Tender oblivious by the operation of the Factory Act. Knowledge of the situation of workshops ^ if legislation is to succeed ; and it is the ~inerest justice to the more substantial or permanent Employer that this migratory pest should be brought to- fepok; A system of certification of workplaces would fee a great advance. It could be made a summary oiff©ace for aniy person to occupy any premises in wTiich any person is employed without having fii*st obtained irom the authority defined a ceitificate that ther said rpye^isses are suited for the purpose required. . It is not r quite an innovation, list .application. under: 'other coh- - rditions Ihas been law for some time. For instance, th© * .^pfeiie^be- : required by' the County Council from occupiers of premises in which more than 40 persons a^e employed before they can open their iiew work- - \ushops. t I suggest. su.3h. alcertificat© could be required -'of evrery occupier of- a workshop ini this country before Jhe. couldppen. it. .Upon the sweated only would certi- jScation have; an ,admirable effect, and it is for his. benefit alo n © th at I suggest its adoption. The large /|rady of vm;anufapturers would not be influenced in any ^respect by its^appreciable advantages. Indeed, sine© •-^h©^;^3^^:On'jpf: ctSe,:idea of ^ certification I (have fre- iquently discussed theposisibility of its success with sub- -stantljil manufactarers in various trades, and have "found it freely and unconditionally welcomed by them. iA> HfSSS.-, {Major Evans-Gordon.) To whom was, the in- ception of thisidea due ? To yourself ?—I can scarcely •^tak©; credit for that.' I think'it is due to some qf; my seniors. It was advocated for some considerable time. 11657. It proceeded from th© Department ?—-Yes. I i&ink it ihas been found to, be the only real way of con- trolling this number of workshops,. Th© number of Workshops in, Stepney has a sreat influence on the ques- tion of overcrowding, and alien immigration generally -—more than is supposed to be th© case. There has been jno alternative mentioned to me, and the bare thought -of remedial measures approximating to efficiency on -paper, at any rate, has given th© liveliest 'satisfaction. If it could be brought home to these people that their Siic.^ss here would largely depend upon their individual "handicraft, that the unrestricted sweating of others— '^■hich, encourages the least unworthy of them to embark {©n manufacturing enterprise-—was no longer possible, T^i.iUiclined to believe that the commercially offerisiy© \pl^ss. of aliens, would be less likely to risk existence in this country*- Evasion is almost systematic in the em- ployment during illegal hours of women and young ^©rsons.i.n clt is. deemied necessary to fiild persons actually* ate work ing order to secur e- conviction, and here it becomesi a perfect race between the inspector and the fffagloyfcftk^r .;;his»:;:aff©ntsv - All m ann ers of devices are r©quil5itiom#d to lender detection impossible. The con- struction of workshops- aids the occHrpier;t© that end. Eloquently the Workrooms are on the third and'fourth so, that by the- time -an. inspector has^^ietv negotiated th.e stairs he findte the hands in a state of ■ £he new conditions., . But the; natives have not;snffered salone in tfeis respect. In some streets, t- lon'g recognised ..-as Jewish quarters, the, entire area as a residental centre, has been- oleared, and huge 'warehouses or other buildings; si^stitu^ed^ .ih.*!'which ^nly;.inatives,; are employed. An instance of that may be said-to/exist, in St. George's, where somei.large wool warehouses were put ?up and :a^largeicnumber ; of Jewish .dwellings pulled down-^ialmosti fentirely -: Jewish- dwellings. jvThe people really; ^ employed ;vin;rthe* warehouses, areu-all; natives, no;?Jews at all.) s 'Doubtllessvthisiwp's' a f:actoraid- • ing congestion and accentuating overcrowding, elsewhere., The principal cause'.' of native.: depopulation1 has,. howr. ever, been due to development of industries for. which the Jews are largely, if noto wholly^ responsible; v; The. enormous number of new workshops erected naturally implied an dnerease of labour, andvmultiplied or intensir ■fed the demands for workers requiring to dive at hand. The City has. been the magneticaxis of this, evolution in more ways, than.one. . Allies immediate neighbours have; been encroached upon, but not probably to the same; extent as Stepney. When sites are wanted, for trade purposes, the. dwellers must, inevitably be / displaced. Almost all th& Stepney workshops depend on the City for orders, and very frequently the stipulation as to a contractor having- his . workshop within a } specified radius is the deternlifiinor factor in ^ the-<;oii|ractor's; a^licatibii for work. - That;ris to say) th^ -the^ City; warehouses, giving out work to be manufactured in the East of London*. insisl ,on the i work s being (Jone^within a certain distance ojfj^^iwarel^^se. The need, for sttper- visio?nt«ee(omv tousppsp##*1®A a#itude 4hose responsible - EVIDENCE* ' 391 for exacting this condition, hence the pressing becoineg' Mr. :M. acute. The native is not affected by the City - traders- Evans, demands, but the Jew is, he is solely dependent on -- this source,: with' the; inevitably result that a, competi- IS Dec. tion in ability to pay rent ensues, and as property is ~ needed by r the > manufacturer, for productive and as the. owner, being human,,-, is ;»o1>,iAWiyipws"^ •'%©, opportunites offered thereby, the native resident. ,,is forced to give way, having no need for the premises excepting for residential purposes. Workshops are thrown up on every available patch of 'ground, whole inclosures . being utilised. Some streets had large open spaces at the rear, affording suitable position for work- shops. These were provided. The rents have been trebled in many' cases, seldom unreasonably increased, and the natives hitherto occupying them"were compelled to forfeit their tenancies; The increased rents '~paicU by: foreigners is' often attributable to this ca'u&e—the1* enhance i . Rvalue of the property. I■ should • likee to * exemplify that by one instance. I will take tie case, ofc; Settle; Street. Some .old property w;as pulled. down iii:*.. Settle Street, and the rents piior to demoIiti:ani' ranged^ _ from 8s. to 10s. a week. New property was pni up, the - rents siibsequently :wer§ £2 per week brat the extent of . the new buildings can be gauged from the faetr that the..... assessment under the old conditions, when ,the old cot-- tages existed, was £13, and the assessment under the/ • new conditions is £84. .... , ... ..... ,, _1 . ^Major Evans-Gordon,.). Are. they , dbrellahg^ houses 1— These are dwelling , houses... and. . workshops. That is really the cause,, of ,Jwhat appears ta .be an. ab- normal increase of rent,,, but ^hieh,, is really ilot an abnormal increase of rent at all. It is due to workshops,. that will accommodate, really a. large number of people;,. probably 25 people, and therefore the rent in this case * of £2per week is n-otj in my opinion, an unreasonable rent. 11661. We have heard, of the enormous rise of rents. ; from Mr. Harper, of the. County Council, in tne '&&&&. as?. houses where, there was no- structural alteration' at alii- That was-a point espeeiajly.noticed? and that would not apply to .what you are/saying now P^TRere have beeiv : slight,.in,crejases due to. the. very, fact that the persons ■ working in these workshops require to. live within a* ■ reasonable distance, of them, and therefore there has- been great pressure, to get housing accommodatienv butr til© increase even in houses where there ia no strpctural^ addition is very often due to the fact that the h©iase.v! is coayerted into. workshop, though- Mr. Harper may not know it. The work is done on the premises, and it. stands to reason there ,is a greater amount of .damage done ito^prope^ty:, used as.workshops'-tha^.would ;be the case if it was merelyv used ..for dwellings., 11662.- (Sir Kenelm' Digby.) You anean, used as work- shops ^without any structural - alteration-—property r simply turned into shops/?—-Yes^ vahdi thWe?'mus t ihevit- ably ibe' greater.Mda.mage to> the'pfoperty, iand: therefore there must -be a. igreater return in the' sfcape of rent. 11663. {Lord BothschiM.) Yoti think the simple fact that: more work -coming intb = aidistricty irrespective of ' the number of-people, imigh-t mean' an increase of rent ? ; —)I should say that pressure causes that. It has done- 60• It.is .not necessarily due,to the larger number, .of" people coming into the" district , so t much .as it is due to people requiring to live neaj; to their ^ork; .andi as,' the work increases ,in a . particular locality, there is- greater necessity for the workers, and therefore a de- mand fbraoopimmodation. 11664. (Major Evans-Gordon.) .Oonr^petition between* people wanting_to live in that district ?—Wanting to, live near to their work. °' 11665. .In that-district which ;is near their work f—- Yes, that would he so.. The number , of new workshop^; put up in Stepney during the last five years ^has been* enormous—whole streets. I heard a startling, state- ment this morning with regard to Clark Street where- rents have gone up to a. tremendous extent. l' do not knoiw exactly to what house that, statement refers but on one side of Clark Street workshops have1 beeii pnt up,r^hat|;arei'certainly wortli3£100^-per' yea-r rent; alone,-quite independent;, of the housing accommodation,; which has been, tre'bled ~ in ;some.{cases;. ' ■ ' . ,(Sir erielm- J)$gby.) Would these workshops; mv Ca%|k. ^j?reet,^be pure and isiihpl© workshopsj • dr would*' they .have > .dwellings ^.attached ' to them'P-~They 'have dwellings attached to; them:. • Th^ workshops' are isolated 1 from;theidwellings altogether. ; 11667'. (ikfor ■Evans-*Gorclon.) They are worksbons built iw- th#392 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEJN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H y^rd, and I shpuld say that an increase of 150 per cent. Evans, in the rent would not be unreasonable under the cir- —-— cumstances. IS Dec. 1902. H558. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) For the entire premises?— Yes. 11669. There would be a case where there would be distinct structural alterations ?—That is so, but that is Clark Street. I am taking one side of Clark Street nbw. 11670. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What were formerly gardens are now workshops?—Yes. 11671. That is all due to the increased amount of alien labour?—Not so much to alien labour as it is due to the development of labour. There is. now a tremend- ous development in labour. Necessity for a greater turn-out of East End industry is very much more multi- plied than what it used to be. For one workshop that existed six or seven years ago, there is a necessity for six to-day, and therefore these private dwelling-houses have had to give way to the necessities or the expansion of trade, and in putting up new workshops, new houses have been put up, and in Clark Street particularly the houses thai have been put up there have a capacity, I should say, of six times what the original cottages had, and therefore the increase in rent, of course, is merely proportional to the cost of providing the new buildings. 11672. (Sir Kenelm Digby-) That will tell on the rents of the houses that remain in statu quo, without altera- tion. It would naturally increase the rents of other houses, because of the increased demand for accommo- dation?—-That would 'be so in these particular trades, and for many other reasons. 11673. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These particular trades you refer to are trades carried on by the foreign popu- lation?—Yes, and I stated those at the beginning of my evidence. Then to continue with my statement. Home of these districts have undergone an inevitable ^change, very much to their benefit. Modern laws have " had something to do with it. One provision in the ~ Factory Act of 1895 did more in this respect than any- -*■ thing else known to me. I refer to the enactment pre- r scribing capacity for workers and requiring employers - to affix a notice specifying the number of persons that r may be employed in each room. In hundreds of cases in Whitechapel and St. George's manufacturers became ■ aware for the first time what the minimum space de- manded really was. The provision was accepted by Jews as reasonable, and then the pressure on native , . quarters became irresistible. A general improvement in trade co-existent with a development of East End industries intensified the demand for spacious workshops. I have no knowledge of any native labour suffering by - this evolution. I do not know of a single case during the past eight years—I have never come across a single case nor have I heard of one—where any native labour 'has been displaced either by pressure for a dwelling or by any kind of substituted laibour—not a single case where the native has been displaced by an alien. 11674. (Lord "Rothschild.) You have never heard of an English workman being displaced by a foreigner?—Not 1 in a single instance. 11675. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How do you mean dis- placed by a foreigner? Where are these 54,000 -foreigners living in Stepney ?—They are employed in the ^development of trade in Stepney, in my opinion. 11676. But where are they living? You say no Englishman has been displaced by a foreigner?—I am referring to his labour. 11677. You are not talking now of his house?—No, only as to his labour. I understand it is alleged native labour has suffered by the influx of aliens, and I say I ;have not come across a single case where a native has fbeen displaced. 11678. I want toi make it clear whether you mean hoiLse or labour?—Laibour. Wherever any trade em- ploying natives existed, hitherto the bulk must have .^followed the natives. 11679. The bulk of what?—The bulk of labour or trade—whatever trade it may have been. The native -trade, if you prefer to have it that way. 11680. The bulk of such trade?—Yes. The new trades or developments of trade have been due solely to foreign labour, and the increase' of productive capa- city has been due in the. same degree to the same persons. The districts have benefited as much mate- rially as the workers, and though I have no means of being accurate, I do not hesitate in expressing my opinion that the money-earning capacity of the districts affected by this question of alien immigration has trebled during the past eight years. This is almost wholly due to the extension of manufacturing works producing articles of daily use, the demand increasing gradually. It is fair to assume that the native popula- tion was unequal, or unsuited, to the task of produc- tion. The foreigner came to the rescue and has, un- wittingly, no doubt, prevented the apparently in- evitable transfer of trade to other countries. It is true he has supplanted the Britisher in his home, but while that is regretful enough, the native has profited by the indisputable benefits accruing from the foreigners' labour. Thus, while the native population has suffered inconvenience in a few districts, we have had in return the advantages of cheap commodities and increased trade—and this without displacing native labour. Yery often the ability to pay rent or extract key-money—that most iniquitous system—determines the native's chances of securing a tenancy. The key- money is particularly wicked, and quite unreasonable to the native. Indeed, unless the premises are to be utilised for workshops or lodging-houses there is jno possible hope of recoupment. I am acquainted with a case where an occupier of a workshop having ca- pacity sufficient for 20 persons, paid £60 for the key 'with only a monthly tenancy, and rent payable in, advance. Many of the owners of property have acted discreditably and dishonestly. In cases where addi- tional w.c.'s were required for both sexes, it was usual to advance the rent, sometimes half a crown weekly. This was done wihere only one w. c. was provided, ant? though the whole work possibly averaged 70s. cost the additional rent remains to this day. Unscrupulous agents bargained with clients to exact key-money often turning out tenants for the agent's benefit financially. I may say I think the agents have made it a trade to benefit by the getting in of new tenants, getting them to pay key-money, and then turning them out immediately afterwards. In all these transactions the native must succumb by sheer inability to pay, and being of a less squeezable temperament than the alien. The alien's home life is not the. perished existence com- monly supposed'. It is quite the contrary. He i's frugal, thrifty, and abstemious. Evidence of this is apparent from the state of licensed houses within the affected areas. Many of these are now utilised as work- shops. Then I deal with aliens and employment. Contemporaneous with the increase in trade and cheapened produce, the natives have benefited by the foreigner's introduction of new method's. In some in- stances the employment of foreigners carries with it the necessity of employing natives. In the leather trades this is particularly evident, in the clothing trades, also, the English workers are the better for his company. Some branches of the trades subsist on native labour to a greater extent than is generally sup- posed. The making of trousers is still mainly in the hands of native workers, though the trade is conducted by foreigners. Thus with the development of other manufactures we have had' the increased and increasing demand for native labour, the latter being, obviously, proportional to that of the foreign element. I am not sure that I do not understate the advantageous position created for the native. As a consumer he receives all the benefit. During a decade the work in almost every branch has doubled, if not trebled, and that the numbei of natives engaged has been equally progressive is in- disputable. This is somewhat remarkable, mainly owing to the inability of the native to work for Jews on Sunday. Whenever the question of the fitness of two applicants is in the balance, the preference in most cases goes to the Jew on that account. That mainly affects women and young persons. Male adult labour, not being subject to legal restriction, varies consider- ably. Many natives work on Sunday, and I fear this factor is becoming the more, formidable every year. 11681. (Lord Bothschild.) When the native works on Sunday, he does not work on Saturday ?—He ought not to do so. 11682. Does he, or does he not? The Jew does not keep a factory opem on Saturday?-—That should be the case. 11683. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is not a question of " should be "; it is what, he does. Does he keep it open or does he not ?—I suppose it is fairer to say that he does not. 11684. (Lord Bothschild.) In most cases he does not ? —It is a question of what constitutes opening of a workshop on Saturdays really. In a good many cases,MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 393 in* almost all cases, we find the place is opened' for «ome; purpose or other, though we may not find work actually; going on. ' We should then say the workshop was ;not opened for the purposes of employment within, the.ymeaning of the Act, but with regard to whether the native works on'Sunday I have never come across a case where a native worked on Saturday and Sunday. If- we <,could oome across such a case we should pro- secute. . . Quite recently we took up a case in Commercial JStreet, and a very heavy penalty was inflicted. 11685. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) If it was a woman or ^young person ?—That would mot matter in the case of » man bmng employed on Saturday as well as Sunday. I &m quite suro the native® employed deplore the ten- dency arid dislike the practice, but the Jewish employer is helpless. The Factory Act prohibits employment of protected labour on Sunday if the works are open oca Saturday. Thus where both races are engaged the question is only possible of solution by an orthodox Jew dosing on Saturday. On this account there is displacement of native labour, not actual displacement, because without the inventive genius and wonderful resources of the Jew much of the developments in trade .might have been unknown, but it is substituted labour dimply because the native would certainly have pre- feremce in many cases did the difficulty of forbidden Sunday labour not exist. Many of the aliens are .already equipped with the necessary knowledge of a trade on their arrivalhere. I have come across them .at work in different trades within/ a week of landing. In most cases they are relatively in the- same position regarding East End industries as is the native, only they are to be preferred for the work; available ; the native shrinks from it if only for its commonness. . Aliens soon develop capacity for manufacture. As uilder-workers they receive subsistence allowance for .a few weeks until experience gives them a proper value in 'the labour market. So far as my knowledge of that goes, I have had many opportunities of seeing the wage books of employers long -before I knew anything, as ;to thei probability of-this* Commission inquiring into the question, and there has never been a case to my knowledge where the allowance has really not been a subsisting allowance. I call it subsisting (that is my own word1), but the wages paid to an alien for his first week's employment in this country, so far as I know, have always been sufficient for his. subsistence. Thereafter they are reliable guardians of themselves, and in that respect there is : iiobo&y more keen or who can make a better bargain than the alien after he has been here a very short while, and1 lie takes care that his wages shall be quite up to the standard. They cling to petty handicraft, such as the clothing and leather trades. Sometimes they get into the hands of taskmasters, and sweating is resorted "toi { From these dens they seeim never to emerge. The taskmaster and sweater is an unprincipled, loathsome /individual, whose tyrannical methods and disposition are only; equalled-by his complete ignorance, and open defi- ance of everything that is moral and humane. He is usually found in a basement or garret, concealed from th£ outside "world altogether. His workshop reeks with foul smells; the atmosphere is loaded with human vitia- tion ; the combustion from burning refuse and the emis- sion of sickly fumes by cheap oil lamps and other implements of work, and from processors of manufacture, together with an absence of natural light, make this particular class of workplaces a positive danger to- the community. Here the alien is imprisoned day and night, and kept at work in a semi-nude state for starva- tion allowance. Family and all sleep in same room. A few women are employed. The effect of this is found in the anaemic and lifeless state of the workers. I should like to say here that the tendency to employ persons in these places has diminished tremendously of late, mainly due to the laying in of machinery to do the particular • class of work which home workers really absorb. There was, upwards of five years ago perhaps, a very large number of home workshops doing what may be called finishing work in the boot trade, but practically every manufacturer now worth calling a manufacturer has that done on his premises by machinery, and I feel convinced that in course of time machinery will absolutely abolish the necessity for any home work whatever so long as the premises are sufficient for the manufacturers' output. 11686. (Lord Rothschild.) You may say that machinery - will abolish the sweating ?—That is so. . 11687. (Sir Kenelm Digby.\ Are you speaking chiefly *«of the boot trade or of the tailoring trade?—Practically it does not exist in other trades. It is in the leather Mr. H. trade that it exists, or has existed. Evatys. 11688. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Not in the fur trade? iq tw 1009 —There is very little in the fur trade. It is very rarely ' that the fur trade is carried on in a private room. ^ I do not think that could be carried on with any success. 11689. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Or in tailoring ?—In tailoring there is very little indeed'. The ordinary tailors' workshops in Stepney generally may be said to average 20 persons, but they are genuine workshops ; they are not dwellings or domestic rooms similar to what one finds in Soho. In Soho nearly all the work is done in domestic rooms, but in Stepney nearly all the work is done in workshops. 11690. With regard to this strong language you are using about sweaters, you are speaking chiefly of the boot trade?—Yes. The sweater is oblivious to all de- mands for decency, and honesty is not the best trait of these helots of industry. They are mainly outworkers, a class attractive to some owing to the freedom of restraint from employers. Nothing is too low for this class, and their depredations bespeak approaching ruin to the. lives of the helpless victims and their dependents. They are adepts at defying and deceiving legal provisions, and openly boast of their genius for this kind of thing. Their existence is a menace to others, and not a little of the ill-feeling and strife evinced towards the foreigner in East London is attachable to this wretched person. He is neither amenable to law nor reason. Of baneful prac- tices he is the monopolist. He sweats his hands—real sweating. His disposition is exemplified by the hideous way in which he shrieks at his workers. He works seven days every week, and two or three intervening nights as well. Frequently when visiting in the early morning I have found numbers asleep—apparently from sheer ex- haustion. He knows and keeps no Sabbath, and the helpless mortals who come under his baneful influence are denied the right of knowing a Sabbath either. He pays wages at his leisure, and his creditors come in for much the same treatment. Some of these sweaters owe their existence (prosperity is unknown) to thoughtless merchants whose excessive zeal overruns discretion, and often reaps its. due reward by a pitiable composition in final settlement of accounts. I may say her© that in some cases I have known during, the past eight years some men seem to resort to the protection of the bank- ruptcy laws, and have done so three or four times during that period, and they openly boast in the East End that it is their saving clause for carrying on any practice they like, whether in the main honest or not. In most cases coming under my notice the greatest lack of discrimination has been manifested by English whole- sale houses. Aided by the deplorable state of the bank- ruptcy laws, this sweater reigns supreme. He knows his position to be unassailable! Frequently such a person com. mences manufacturing within a month's residence here, and then at recurring intervals, he solicits the protection of the law to facilitate robbing his creditors. Nor is he content with fleecing them only, for often enough he takes his departure on the eve of the day for paying wages. He has practically no stock-in-trade, only keep- ing sufficient material to effectually establish the im- possibility of any of his workers ever needing to " rest" for supplies. The manufactured article is despatched for sale without delay. In the shoe and furniture trade the goods are literally hawked for disposal, so that the occupier of the premises where work is done is really outside the pale of the law. If by chance he is got inside a court of law, he does xiot scruple at committing wilful perjury, and delights in inducing his ready dupes to do likewise, openly boasting of his success in this respect. Home work is the cause of the sweater's existence. The evolution in the leather trades has brought him to the front, without which he would have been a negligable quantity. Remedies are legion in number but unwork- able in practice. He can, however, be left alone; for I am confident that in time machinery will displace him altogether. 11691. What has been the progress of the sweater ? Is he more prevalent now than he was eight years ago ?— Considerably less. 11692. (Lord Rothschild.) Would you say he is a vanishing quantity?—He is a vanishing quantity, and probably during the next 10 years he will have ceased to exist so far as the leather trades are concerned. If some restriction can be put upoh the creation of small work- shops, because it is only the small man who resorts to sweating, it would soon be done away with. The 6144 3D394 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : JfK H. respectable manufacturer in the leather trade has no Evans. necessity for that sort of thing. ;—~ 11693. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Why do you say they • Dec. 190w. never emerge from- the clutches of the sweater ?—They do not get out of hie clutches until they have learnt sufficient of the ways of East London trade, or have got to know somebody who can introduce them to a shop where home wQirk is not done. In some cases that have come to my knowledge they are met on arrival here and taken to these places, and in some oases I have known of personally they are kept at work there. Furthermore^ of course, being quite ignorant of the district and quite ignorant of the work, there is no possibility of them emerging for some time afterwards. 11694. Are . these people who you say are hopelessi prisoners the sort of people who come over here who are caught, as soon as they come over?—Yes. After a few Weeks it would be utterly impossible to get an alien to work in the places ! am speaking of now. 11695. A man who had been here a few weeks ?—Ye£. It is only at first, when he is utterly hopeless, as it were. 11696. Would you say the large proportion of the people who come over here are caught in this way?—* Not a large proportion. It would only be the proportion that concerns the leather trades. It would be a small proportion really. In the clothing trade, which absorbs a larger proportion of alien labour, that question does not arise at all, because in the clothing, trades they are always Subject to the supervision of the factory inspector, since there must be protected labour employed. But in the trades I have just spoken of, the leather trades, these men employ no protected labour, and they are subject to no law except what ought to be the sanitary administra- tion—overcrowding land insanitary places. 11697. {Lord Botlischild.) Would you say there was much sweating; in the slipper trad,e ?—-There is not any- think like ,so much now as there used to be. 11698. My point is that there is more sweating in the new trades that are brought over here, like .the slipper trade, beftoe workshops—that is to say, regular work- shops—^can be established %—Yes, that would be so. Sweating only takes place in the leather trades—what I should call sweating. 11699. In new trades that come over here before a real manufactory is established. Is that it?—They are not really new trades—islipper-making, for instance; they are developments. 11700. I am not talking of the 'boot trade. The slipper trade, I am told, is, comparatively speaking, a new trade ?—It is within the last few years—I suppose ten years at least. It is, not a new trade at all. 11701. There is' no great manufacture of slippers here as there is in other towns It is ten y ears old. 11702. There was not ten years ago anybody in the slipper trade?—I oannot tell what there might have foeen, but I do know now there is a large trade. 11703. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You can go back eight years ?—Yes, there are very large slipper-makers in the East End of London. Slipper-making is really part of the shoe trade. People talk of slipper-making, but it is really shoe-making, i.e., fancy shoes. 11704. (Lord Botlischild.) My point is whether when in&k trades were brought over here they would be more lively to be carried on in a sweater's den than in a large manufactory ?—I daresay most of these aliens who come over here, from inquiries I have made, are already equipped for slipper-making; they understand the leather trade; they have been employed in such trades in their own country before they oarne here, but the slipper trade is really part and parcel of the shoe^making trade. It is not a separate trade at all. (Slippers are really shoes. 11705. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you get slippers fceing made in the same shops as boots and shoes?—• Yes, thai is so. The taskmaster sometimes thrives in our largest workshops where hundreds of hands are em- ployed. One case is fresh in my mind, and doubtless exists to-day. The firm in question aire, or were, con- tractors to, the Government. They were found to open their workshop on Saturdays and (Sundays. Their de- fence to proceedings taken was that a Jewish taskmaster was,really the occupier. 'They themselves were Chris- tioms, hence oould not legally employ on Sundays. So the taskmaster was .occupier on Sundays and his em- ployers on weekdays. I have, however, only heard of mi infinitesimal number of cases of natives succumbing to the roguery and treachery of the ambitious and. heartlesis taskmasters, who constitute a canker in the heart of industrial East London. With the exception, of the sweated section, the aliens can easily hold their own, and certainly lose nothing in comparison with, natives here or elsewhere. Their hours are often ex- cessive, frequently days and nights together go by with- out cessation of work. Pressure of trades of a seasonal character sometimes compels the best masters to resott to unnatural spells. In my opinion nothing short of legal restriction of men's hours will remedy this state of affairs. It is as bad in the West End as the East, and it is in tStoho where the displacement of native- labour is really making headway. The work done Sat Stepney in the clothing trade is not wanted iby natives— they would not do it, perhaps could not .if they wouild— but the West End work is particularly the rightful property of the native. I should like to explain here- that it is really the conservatism of the English clothing manufacturer that prevents him entering the field that has been marked' out by the alien, ianati.j&£ to 10 hours. If he works in his own home, he work;s. considerably more hours, and makes more money, he^use there is ,the freedom from the employees re- straint......• • • / > 11730. He would make 30s. in the factory and con- siderably more money in his own home, -because he would work as long as he liked, but'he would make more than 30s., I think —At all events, I aim perfectly safe in spying 30®. ■ 11751. 30s. a week all the year round ?—When he is regularly at work, and practically he is regularly at work. I am convinced beyond all doubt that English artisans, skilled or unskilled, would not care to attack slipper-makinig in the dogged way and with the deter- mination characteristic of the alien. There has been such1 a transformation in the leather trade owing to the introduction of machinery, and revised (methods, that it has become a field for petty handicraft, whereas it was originally dependent on skilled labour only. Home work'has become universal owing to sub-division. Ap- prenticeship is no longer requisite, the whole of any branch being easily acquired in a;few weeks. Where both datives and aliens are employed, I have noticed that the former adopt the aliens' methods, and no doubt benefit thereby. Some branches of the trade are con- fined to native labour, for which the alien is nearly useless; Combined effort produces articles at a rate and price hitherto unknown, and there is only one un- deniable consequence, and that is that the consumer benefits absolutely. This sub-division is the outcome of alien enterprise, and but for its introduction I fancy we should have , felt its need in (the increased price of various commodities. It has founded and secured a huge industry whereby numbers if natives have been employed, and put the manufacture of cheap articles of personal use outside the reach of foreign competition. This subdivision of labour is being hastily adopted in other countries to-day—notably in America. But it must, not be thought that East London will feel the pinch of American competition ; rather, I fear, our great centres of the boot and shoe industry will suffer most. I am confident that in the event of any other country competing with East London products, the latter can safely be left to look after itself. Then I deal with sani- tation. The provisions of the Factory Act, with which # I am immediately concerned apply to workplaces only, taking no cognisance <*f residential quarters, unless these ■ latter comprise the approach or approaches to a work- shop. My duties have, however, taken me into the majority of the hbuses in Stepney Borough, and I have taken notice of their condition generally. I consider them to* be satisfactory under all the circumstances, and these will compare favourably with other localities not affected by an alien population (indeed, a comparison with Soho is odious to Stepney). 11732. What do you mean 'by that'? Is Soho better than Stepney, or worse ?-—I say the comparison is odioua to Stepney. ,11733. That is to say, Soho is worse than Stepney ?— Considerably worse in every respect. The improvement during eight years has been most marked. The districts c.oncerneid have benefited to a great extent, and, from a business point of view, the East End has vastly im- proved—an improvement in every sense. The intel- lectual standard olf the people 'has 'been raised, and, generally, I have noticed an exhibition of qualities tending to good citizenship. The condition of Jewish workshops is not behind that of the natives ; indeed, the improvement indicated is almost entirely in alien quar- ters. The commendable spirit shown by some enter- prising speculators in building operations in Stepney lias, been needful and beneficent. It has simply revolu- tionised the East End. Most of the new buildings are inpdels' in many respects. That reference would include all such places as Albert Square, Christian Street, and Settle Street, and all those streets that have, been singled out for special mention before the Commission. Others are perfect mysteries in construr!- tion, showing the absolute futility of any building laws. Some recently built project on to domestic rooms, the walls of kitchen and basement being removed to allow of the apartment being included in. and forming part of the'workshop, a 'most retrograde practice and 'hardly credible to the ordinary mind., But one large firm has been'particularly active and particularly wise. Their workshops are provided with proper sanitary conveni- ences and great icuibical capacity, in accordance with modern law. Of course these requirements necessitated the construction of commodious and substantial, build- ings, entailing proportional outlay, and requiring and deserving an increased return by way of rent. - 11734. {Lord Rothschild!.) Was this firm an alien firm r —I believe Messrs. Davis are Jews, but I am not sure- whether they are aliens or not. 11735. A J ewish firm?-—A Jewish firm—.Messrs. Davis. I should like to say, so far as the places put up by Messrs. Davis are concerned (I have read that they have been icriticised here), as far as I know, all their places are simply models; the districts have benefited con- siderably by them, and in no case, in not a single instance has the rent exacted been, in my opinion, unreason- able. Both myself and the local officers in Stepney have generally regarded Messrs. Davis as good landlords, always -willing to do anything that has been asked of them in the way of improving their places, and the rents have pretty nearly always been reasonable under the circumstances. There has been no distinction, so far as I know, so far as Messrs. Davis or any other persons are concerned, as to whether a man was a native or an alien; and so far as Albert Square is concerned, it is true that Albert Square was almost wholly occupied by natives up to the time of Mr. Cohen getting it into his possession. I went round Albert Square before the workshops were put up, just about the time when the transformation was to take place, and several of the tenants there, to the best of my knowledge, told me they had the choice of remaining if they liked to accept the new rent, which would include the new workshops put up in the rear of the premises. Of course, they could not use the workshops—the- native has no use for them, therefore it was absolutely impossible for them to remain in the houses. 11736. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That was not much of an advantage, offering to the tenant a workshop that he could not use ?—I am not sure that the outgoing tenant* would not have benefited by it. One gratifying result has been the gradual extinction of domestic rooms used as workshops, the improvement being most among, foreigners. In this connection I am bound to say that the alien has usually displayed a ready interest and willing acquiesence when the advantages of such a step- have been pointed out, anjd only the difficulty of sur- mounting the change has deterred them. The alien, noc very clean at first, soon accommodates himself to local conditions. There is, of course, the inevitable residuum who are steadfastly dirty—simply irreclaimable. They' get into a hopeless plight, inseparable from squalor and insanitation. Some are apparently ignorant of the most elementary needs towards cleanliness1. Much of this is due to their busy lives. They habitually make labour- their existence, surrendering themselves to the obliga- tions of earning a living. Bed to work, and work to- bed, theirs is truly a mechanical life. It cannot altogether be wondered at that they neglect and ignore the very essentials, of a decent existence. I have found them working late at night, with the obvious- addition. to their appearance of dirt and dust generated during, the day, but I have also found them, working early in the morning in the same state. The incessanjfc demands, of a laborious life evidently develops a tendency and. practice to forget the simple rules of cleanliness. I have often heard protests' against the limewashing of ceilings, etc., because these-subsequently formed suoli a contrast to surrounding conditions. Owing te con- gestion of buildings and overcrowding, filth is somewhat unavoidable through the quantity of refuse permitted to accumulate in some parts of the- borough of Stepney •and elsewhere. This has. been directly due to the inertia., of the sanitary authority, whose inexplicable inaction has been a most demoralising factor. The people have-- been nurtured in dirt during their residence here. Little wonder that aliens, with every intention to con- form to the requirements of the district, think it con- sonant with unwritten law to leave their premises to the fates, thinking that the standard maintained is<{ iietly accepted by the sanitary authority., Take, for ex- ample, the question of refuse. It was quite an; ordinary thing to find a passage to a workshop barred by heaps of refuse, the accumulation of weeks1. I have had many plaintive appeals for the removal of this nuisance that ■ positively reeked under the family breakfast table. In some cases I have recommended complaints to the local authority. But what wonder if the homes—many of which were purer in, regard to air than the open spaces surrounding them—of these people are not of the most healthful kind when this sort of thins; is allowed by a sanitary authority; and when inclosures and ap- proaches have been exhausted to hold the refuse there-MINUTES . OF EVIDENCE, 397 lias been no alternative to throwing it into the streets, iI Jiav.e found the streets of St. George's foul from this very cause.. But it has impressed tliese aliens with a .standard not tolerated in any decently governed .area ; and the; cause is ,only too often dlueto the nefarious prac- tice of exacting gratuities from the poor inhabitants. is responsible for miaph disorder and demoralisation, "WiJien I have remonstrated with occupiers' for permitting tauch heapsofinsanitary matter it has been urged that tfe dustman would not attend because he had to go unrewarded last time. The nefarious practice of exact- ing''gratuities from the poor inhabitants is responsible* for much disorcLei and demoralisation. The difference between these districts and that supervised by the vestry of .Mile, (End was most marked. The distinction was ijjist; as common m regard to other matters dependent on these sanitary authorities. The situation: cannot be better exemplified than by instancing the treatment acc6fcted by these vestries to complaints forwarded by the factory inspector. In the area of Mile End it was rarely ever necessary to enlist their aid—the necessity scarcely ever arising. The inhabitants were unaffected by the refuse heap plague ; overcrowding was con- spicuously absent, sanitary conveniences were well con- structed and suitably maintained, the interior of room* were conimendably clean, while the streets were well pigh; perfect. Any, appeal to the sanitary officers was promptly attended to, ,and action just as promptly decided upon, and no single case worthy of mention came under my notice where the steps taken formed the subject of criticism, or adverse comment. During 1901 about 150 complaints we .sent to Stepney Borough Council, I suppose 140 of these referred, to the St. George's anid Whitecihapel areas. It has always been the; same, and it must be remeimbered that workplaces are just, as congested in the Western division of Mile End as in St. George's or Spitalfields. The action taken by 'these- two extinct authorities was indicative />f their ; administration generally. Our complaints" were .frequently either ignored or received the attention of& in^ro pretence.. In a number of cases where action was . justifiable, and said by these authorities to have ibeepi taken, it was subsequently ascertained that no steps,had been either taken or contemplated ; in others, the local officers had not even visited the premises or made any investigation. Section 5 of the Factory Act requires the local authority to apprise the factory in- spector of steps taken as the result of our notifications. T investigated a number of cases from time to time, and fblind that the replies of the local officers were un- reliable and unfortunate. Indeed, in some cases the aiction was calculated to encourage contempt on the jjart of occupiers. In some cases we were obliged to solicit the help of the London County Council before .any: progress could be made. It was abundantly evident that the administrations were either grossly in- competent or very insincere. Overcrowding was become general, the amazing callousness and ineptitude of the sanitary authorities courting defiance of the pirovisions, and breeding contempt. Their efforts to abate or stem this- ; growing evil can be measured by the success their records will show. During the last five years of their existence very many complaints as to places where over- crowding prevailed were sent by myself. I wish, to be fair, but I will hazard the opinion that not a .single case of overcrowding in workshops was punished at tiieir in- stigation during thi# period. These complaints were all •well founded. In the district of Mile End one sanitary inspector alone took a few cases and secured convic- tions, But the evil was most acute in St. George's and Whitechapel. During the latter part of 1895 I recom- mended proceedings for Overcrowding against several occupiers, and secured substantial penalties'. But the power of the factory inspector to proceed only extended to " employment during overtime," and this, power has now been transferred to the sanitary authority. That is scarcely true. As a matter of fact, no person has gp^er to proceed for overcrowding during overtime now. ^11737. vWhy is that? Is that a change in the law?— TTbat 5 s. a chanjge in the law. 11738. Under the new Act ?—Yes. ,11739. You hsive lost a power under the new Act that you had under the old ?—Yes, there is a total absence of power for dealing with overcrowding during overtime. ' 11740.; i ;Is that a fault in the new Act, in your opinion ?—I do nlot know whether it is- a, fault. 11741. (Sir Kenelm DigbyJ. Would not that be a mue&tio;n for the local authority under the new Act?— But they have no power to enter without a warrant after 9 o'clock; then they can only serye a notice. Of course Mi\ H. we took summary proceedings in'the cases' that we found Evans. of overcrowding. - —-—; .. 11742. It is part of the change in the new Act which 18 Dexs. I9(^> took away certain powers from the factory inspector and gave them to the local authorities?—That is so. Our power was, different to that of the sanitary authority. We could proceed by summons forthwith, the sanitary authority could merely serve a notice. But as they only visited by day they could n)ot, obviously, deal with this offence, Indeed, in some cases where complaint was made of overcrowding by night the local officers paid visits by day to discover it. Now we have this position, that whereas every occupier is bound to affix a notice specifying the number that may be employed in each room, he is able to disregard the actual offence of over- crowding, an offence always wilfully committed and attended with much profit to the occupier, and conse- quent discomfort to all concerned. The necessity for a revision of powers to proceed is great enough. In some cases the evil is of considerable proportions. In one case I found ten persons working in space for two, and as these discoveries are often made by ni^ht when the atmosphere is loaded with human vitiation, and gas combustion during the previous 12 hours, the disastrous effects can be better imagined' than described. If by chance it has been a sleeping compartment, then the picture is complete. Where overcrowding prevails it is generally very serious. I am confident that with the possession of power which can be given , I think without any appeal to Parliament, this kind of overcrowding can be checked. I have found it easier to discover over- crowding in workshops and in private rooms at night time than at any other, but this is just when the local officers have, or appear to have, no power of entry. I think that, as a matter of fact, should be 9 o'clock—the local officers have power of entry up to 9 o'clock. When a place is found overcrowded under the present law it is the duty of the factory inspector to notiiy the sanitary authority. This reference means unwarrantable delay, and often just suits the convenience of the offender, who happens to know how impossible it is to effectually deal with him. In the same degree of neglect I found the sanitarv conveniences constructed in St. George's and Whitechapel to be deplorable. Closets have been erected in areas open to the* street, without any pretence «vt privacy, side by side, with absolutely no decent separa- tion for protection of sexes. They are, of course, always filthy, simply unapproachable; it could not be otherwise under such wretched conditions. Within the last year som& new w.c.'s were constructed under the supervision of the sanitary inspector for both sexes and placed side by side, with the door opening to the yard, not even back to back, and exposed to workers and the workshop. The fittings are of the crudest type, and though it may be asserted that no law exists to specify fittings, I ca& only reply that I found such defects non-existent in Mile End and Limehouse. His Majesty's inspectors of fac- tories have power to act (Section 5, Sub-section 3) in default of sanitary authority, but the officers of the delinquent vestries mentioned above rendered the execu- tion iof those powers impossible by pretending to effect an abatement themselves. Some of the tenement dwell- ings were allowed to degenerate into a condition that shocked the inhabitants and workers themselves. Had any attempt been made in past years to administer law in these buildings, they would not to-day have been the cause of so much trouble and anxiety to the newly constituted authority. I am able to add that since the incorporation of Stepney as a borough progress has been apparent, and it seems just possible that the unification of the districts comprising Stepney may be the saving clause to prevent further retrogression,- and uniformity of administration cannot help but have beneficent re- sults. That completes my statement. 11743. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You say at the begin- ning of your statement that penalties would be a deterrent. What steps are taken to; make aliens ac- quainted with the provisions of the Factory Acts?—, Practically no steps are taken until they are discovered► 11744. No steps are taken to make them acquainted with what they have got to do?—Not until we find them in occupation. They are supposed to register their premises first. 11745. The consequence is that the vast body of manu- facturers, you say, have remained in entire ignorance of any steps taken ?—I mean steps taken before the magis- trates. 11746. Of any steps taken ?—Before the magistrates.398 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr* B. 11747. We heard, I think, from a magistrate himself, Evans. Mr. Mead, that overcrowding would be deterred and 7—~ prevented by steps being taken, bub in the case of the 8ti)ee» 1902. factorv it has not had a deterrent effect?—For over- crowding? 11748. We heard that prosecutions under the sanitary* law would have a deterrent effect upon overcrowding, but as far as your experience goes prosecutions have not had a deterrent effect with regard to breaches of the Factory Acts?—Oha yes, I think they have h a d r< very great and beneficial effect. I know there is. a difference of opinion about that, but that is as far as I can say. 11749. You say : " It must be remembered in this con- nection that penalties have not had an educational or deterrect effect commensurate with their importance ~I refer to the fact that no steps have been taken to bring the penalties imposed to the notice of the various occupiers, so, of course, they could not be properly edu- cated or deterred by, the very existence of some way of punishing" the offence, and therefore I say a lot of these offences have been committed through sheer ignorance. ' 11750. You say this in tems: " Penalties have not had an educational or deterrent effect commensurate with their importance ",?—Not- to that, extent, bec-iuse there has been no means of bringing it to the notice of the people who are most likely to commit the offence. 11751. Do you say there has, or has not, been a deter- rent effect?—I am speaking in a different sense. J think certaLinly the penalties imposed have had a most ^beneficial result on those people who have been proceeded against. 11762. But not upon those who have not been pro- ceeded against ?—They have generally known nothing at all about it. 11753. That is the point I want to get. Then you say that prosecutions owed much to- the generous inter- vention of employer and employed, and valuable aid is voluntarily furnished by sympathisers. Are those people who are prosecuted, or the people who aid the prosecu- tion of others ?—That is so. 11754. They aid the prosecution of others?—Yes. There is no person more ready to impress on others the importance of obeying our law than the alien himself, but whether he does so or not is a diff erent matter . 11755. Then I find you say that evasion is almost systematic with regard to the employment during illegal hours of women and young persons. Do you call that giving you. aid?—The evasion spoken of there really refers to a state of affairs we have discovered ourselves in the course of inspection. 11756. But these people whom you speak of as sys- tematic evaders of the provisions of the Factory Act can hardly be said to aid you in the prosecution of your duties ?—Very frequently the man who commits the most offences under the Factory Acts is most willi.ig to tell you about somebody else. 11757. So that his aid would not be solely due to enthusiasm for the sanitary laws, but to enforce that -enthusiasm on to somebody else's mind ?—Yes, that is so. 11768. And perhaps a little element of damaging a competitor might enter into it too ?—That might be in liis mind, but very frequently where such a man makes a good many complaints we very often transfer our at- tention ~fo himself under the changed circumstances. 11759. So he is hoist with his own petard in the end ?— Very frequently, I am afraid. 11760. Then you say again there is a tremendous evasion of all provisions ?—Yes. 11761. Does that mean sweating?—No. 11762. Can you give us a definition of sweating ? What is it you call sweating?—Of course, it is almost an in- definable term^ and I am afraid I could not convey my •meaning to you. 11763. You must have a standard in your own mind ?— —I consider where a person is totally ignorant of the conditions usually governing the state of trade in the district where he is employed, and he becomes engaged io work under conditions that are very much worse for himself through his own ignorance, that, is a state of sweating. I am afraid it io not comprehensible. , 11764. You are looking at it rather from the point of view of the employee. I want to get at it from the point of view of the employer. .What would you consider a sweating employer ?—A man who employs, say, three- or four men in slipper-making. He probably pays them very small wages, for one thing, in some cases ; they work under conditions that are scarcely fit for an animal, to exist in; they work in their own rooms, where they sleep, and it is a. case of bed to work and work to bed. The conditions generally are" abhorrent,* and I should term these sweating oonditions. 11765. Then you say sweating is employing people for lower wages than they ought to be earning, and under sanitary conditions of a very bad kind?—That is so. , 11766. Those two elements constitute sweating?— Yes. 11767. The wages earned in the tailoring trade, for instance. If stuff is handed out at very very low wages, do you call those sweating prices?—No, I would not under those conditions. 11768. You think if it is the market rate of wages, anything that is paid for at the market rate is not a sweating wage?—If it comes within reach of the market rate it would not -be sweating. 11769. But the market rat© might be very very low, and yet you would not call it sweating ?—No, not under any conditions. If the man knows what price he is going to be. paid for his work, aaid he likes to do it under those conditions, I do not consider it sweating, •but in the case of this slipper making, through sheer ignorance the man may not know the work that he is to do or the price (he is to be paid for it 11770. You say there is no such thing as sweating as long as there is not ignorance ; that is what it amounts to1 Practically. 11771. May I give you the definition that has been given by the Royal Commission on Sweating, and see whether you would agree with that? Sweating is authoritatively defined by that Commission &s " earn- ings barely sufficient to sustain existence; hours of labour such as to make the lives of the workers periods of almost ceaseless toil ; sanitary conditions injurious to the health of the persons employed and dangerous to the public." Do you agree to that?—I agree with the two latter, at any rate ; but the former, as to wages, is a much wider definition. 11772. According to the definition arrived at by the Royal Commission on Sweating in 1888 and 1889, that was a definition they arrived at, after an inquiry into this subject, that it was earnings barely sufficient to sustain existence. My point is that very low wages, according to that definition, amounts to sweating independent of ignorance ?—Yes, I should say that it might be sweating under certain conditions. 11773. According to my experience, which extends over five years in the East End, there is a mass of people in the East End compelled from their circumstances to accept very very low wages. We laymen call that sweating ; you do not ?—I do not call that sweating. 11774. The Royal Commission did. I want to point that out to you ?—Yes. 11775. You say it is not sweating unless due to the ignorance of the men. Your definition is that the employer -cheats the man out of wages he ought to get ?—No, I do not say that at all. It is probable lie was ignorant before hei undertook to do the work. 11776. The employee?—Yes. 11777. Then he is done out of so. much money?— Probably the employer has a conscience, and he pro- bably obeys his conscience when he pays the man for the work he has done, but that need not be in the case of the alien. Very frequently natives take work out from a place, and they cannot tell when it is taken back what they are going to be paid for it, but I would not say that was a dishonest transaction. 11778. You started' by saying that your definition of sweating was that it was ignorance. Very often, new arrivals come into the place, and the greener is igno- rant of what he ought to get, and the employer takes advantage of his ignorance by employing him for wages lower than he should obtain in that particular trade. That was your original definition of sweating?—Yes. 11779. I say that is doing the man out of so much wages?—I cannot say that is doing him out of the wages if he cares to work at that particular price. It is a fair and square bargain between the employer and the employed. 11780. In spite of the ignorance?—It is a question of commercial - ignorance.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 359, 11781. Are the two people on equal terms ? Suppose Bargaining to employ a man, and the man is ^sellidig/his labour^ and the one is ignorant and the other is not?—It would be ignorance mainly arising fromr this* that the employee to whom I refer as being : sweated is ignorant in not knowing anything about the local wages and the local conditions of the district; therefore he has no means of ascertaining what the rate of wages ruling in the district is. 11782; Consequently he is not on terms of equality with the man who does know those conditions ?—Not at the moment. 11783;»If you are an ignorant man, and I am a know* ing m&ny I have a distinct advantage over you?—At the time. ? 11784s And the employers take advantage of his ignorance Yes, -they do that. 11785. By giving the man wages which they dare 2iotj offbr to me ?—You would not be likely to claim 11786-7.' He takes advantage of the man who does Accept,them?—They aire offered to intelligent men, and they are accepted very often by natives. I am taking your own definition that ignorance is aai elemeiit.- 11788. (Mr. Norman,) Are no intelligent aliens SWekted?^-T'hfete might be isolated cases, but when I referred to sweating 1 meant this particular unfortunate ' class' of workmen, who are driven when they first arrive there to;d*> .a certain class of work at a much less w:age titan what' they certainly should get. When t}iey arrive here, if they get into the hands of that kind of master they , are sweated. If they get into a decent workshop • they are net sweated. 11789.' (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You said before you re- g#{Ied the people almost entirely as fresh arrivals Jtoe^—Yes.'' '/ *432$*((J^Cjajor- Evans-Gordon.) I point out to you &g4in.'j ftiat the Royal Commission took the definition of sweating as " earnings barely sufficient to sustain €>iistdh6;e;" independent of the element of ignorance. Tljat is taken as one of the elements in sweating, but yoW do not agree with that ?—-It merely depends on what • coiistitutes existence. I should say these foreigners when they arrive here can certainly exist on consi'derajbly less than what they can after they have been here a month or two. . llfJjQl. They can exist on very little—we know that? —J do, not agree with that at all. 11792. Have you visited the places these people come from—their homes ?—Do you mean prior to their arrival here. ? 11793; "Yes ?-—No, I thought you were referring to their -existence in Stepney. 11794. I. am talking of their capacity to exist on Ter^' little. You say you do not agree they can exist ttfi -j 1 little ?—Ideny they exist on any less in Stepney than our -own people can. I have seen in- stances where they live very extravagantly. 11795. I am talking -of their capacity to live on very little?—1 take it that that applies all round, whether •to aliens or natives. ' 11796.. Tliey can exist on very little?—I suppose we can all do that lihdar pressure. 11797. You are not personally acquainted with what #iese people are accustomed to live on in their homes Before they ^rrive here ?—No, not at all. 11798. Then you cannot speak with much authority on that point. With regard to this sweating which jou are talking a pout, you say it is disappearing in the JEaat End Yes. 1179.9. T-ha^t is your class of sweating—not people earning very very low wages. Is that disappearing too ? ^That is diis'appearing in every trade, so far as mcuiu- f^cluriftg,, is concerned. Qur operations are not con- fined to the tailoring and leather trades ; they embrace every occupation, practically. 11800. I put it to you, with regard to the disap-' pearance of sweating, so long as you have got a large influx of unskilled persons from abroad', willing to work, and obliged to work for almost any wages, you 3$$ }'•$<& mqite? -likely to have sweating in some trade or -other I—I do not, know that the aliens, as workers, would call it sweating, but it is with the employers that the sweating, begins, not begin sweating. The worker himself does Mr. H Evam. 11801. Do let us keep to the point. Put it either way ~ " ^ you like. My point is this, that this inflow of un- skilled and very poor people from abroad provides victims,for the future. Is that so?—I am quite sure the sweater never gets any victims among the natives in the case of the sweating to. which I refer. 11802. But this inflow of these aliens from abroad provides the recruits for the sweaters ?—In this particu- lar class, yes it does, \ 11803. Then as long as that inflow goes on, and the misery continues, you are likely to always have sweat- ing in some trade- or other ?■—No, I do not agree with that at all, because the sweating is carried on in these home workshops, and X,,am, convinced that before long the taskmaster, the sweater, will be a disappearing, quantity altogether. 11804. You say the more these 'aliens arrive from abroad the less the sweating will grow?—Not from tjie mere fa,ct that more are arriving, but by the develop- ment of the system of manufacture. I say the home workshops will in course of time be non-existent—they. will be a negligeable quantity by reason of the develop- ment of the machinery, and therefore when aliens arrive here they cannot get in the hands of the taskmaster, for the taskmaster will not exist himself, and he does not exist to-day to anything like the extent of a few years, ago. 11805. Do you mean a disappearance of the home work largely in the East End ?—-Tremendously in trades where aliens are employed. For the natives in certain trades I am afraid it is really no better. In the shirt trades and juvenile clothing trades I think the em- ployment of natives in their own homes is extending. .. 11806. You said in one part of your evidence that sweaters only employed adult labour, is that so ?—Yes, that is almost always the case, because they then escape any interference by the law as to the capacity of rooms oi* any other sanitary conditions. They are really out- side the law so long as they do not employ protected labour. 11807. How do you reconcile that with the statement that you make in another part of the evidence about anaemic women the alien question. I'am speaking; about sweating, not aliens. 11819. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What you say is, that long hoiirs, taken alone, is not commonly called sweat- ing ?-—No, it is to the advantage of the workers for them -to work iong hours. 11820. (Mr. Norman.) But long hours at a very poor pay ?~No, not at all. I am sure it is not poor pay. 11821. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not go beyond this definition at all. It is, " The hours of almost cease- less toil." That is one of the conditions of sweating?— •Ceaseless ! It is not; ceaseless toil at all. 11822. What you call work to bed and bed' to work $— INo, that was not with reference to that. {Sir Kenelm Digby.)- Nobody would say length oi liours constituted'sweating. 11823. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No; but it is one of the elements ?—-These long hours are at periods only of pressure of work. 11824. Then you say, " There are some who ignore all restrictions and regulations, and. ;their plea of ignorance is painfully regular," Does that only apply to sweaters or, to other employers of labour as well ?■—It applies to .a very snxall percentage of either. 11825; Are these occupiers who are beyond the reach of the law owing to the migratory character of a numerous class ?—I should say they are more numerous than the last we just spoke,of. I think they would be .more numerous, and certainly, of course, more a perfect abomination. 11826. That is a bad feature ?—They generally are what you call "Greeners." 11827. Is this , migratory propensity facilitated by the continued inflow of aliens?—I should say that the migratory aliens, those who are really of a migratory ^character, are new arrivals, and they have not been here very long, or otherwise, of course, they would not try to launch out as masters, but would be more inclined to accept handicraft as an existence. 11828. Do these migratory employers frequently em- ploy fresh hands ?—They very often have to, because in a good many cases they pay no wages, and therefore they have to get fresh hands, because the hands will Mjot work a second week in succession. 11829. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is common for the greener to turn inito an employer soon ?—It is not very common, but there are such cases. 11830. That is the case you are speaking of now—a new arrival who becomes a small master in his turn ?— He does. I have come across some of them who have "been masters of workshops within a month of their arrival here.. 11831. (Major Evcms-Gdrdon.) Surely it is a very common desire among them, and characteristic of them -—a racial desire—to become employers ?—-I should say we all have that desire. 11832. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Still, it is strongly developed, is it not, with the people?—They have a strong desire to make money as fast as possible; 11833. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They make it in that form' as an employer rather than as the employed 1—■ Yes. 11834. I come back to that point again; even on the scale which you, say is a vanishing scale on which sweating is carried on (we are not quite agreed what sweating is), would it be possible to Carry on like: that unless the labour market was recruited constantly from! abroad in the way that it is?—I scarcely think'that,if greeners were not available. W ith regard to the places' I have already mentioned here as really dens of sweat- ing, if it were not for the greener those places would not' have any existence at all. That is so, but they are gradually having no existence from other causes. 11835. Do you come in personal contact with the new arrivals?—Very frequently. I have been very much interested in the new arrivals. 11836. In what language do you speak to them 1— Not as far as that is concerned. I thought you meant ■had I noticed arrivals frequently. 11837. You cannot hold any conversation with them personally J—I daresay I could, but 1 have never done so. 11838. How do you mean you could if you do not speak their language ?—I did not say I did not speak their language^ but I said I have no necessity. 11839. You do speak their language ?—-I can make my- self understood by them, I have no doubt. I never have done so, because we have administered the Factory Act in the English language, of course, and they have, always accepted it. 11840. Do you know Mr. Sidney Webb's book, " The Problems of Modern Industry " ?^—I think I have read the book. 11841. On page 34 there is a quotation with reference to what you say about this generally. You say, "So long does he practise those habits which it is hoped to render oblivious by the operation of the Factory Act." Mr. Sidney Webb says, " The characteristic of these people is learn that the owners of the mine in question have given; instructions to their under managers not to employ in future foreigners ignorant of the language in which the posted abstract :»f the Act and the special rules ar ©printed." TWENTY-NINTH DAY. Thursday, 19th February 1903. members present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Ghairmari). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild, Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William VallanceJ Esq. Mr. H. Evans, recalled; and further Examined. 11868. (^Sir Kenelm Digby.) Since you were here last you - shave been asked for further information with regard! to your present position at Soiho ?—I have. 11869 And your experience there ?—Yes. 11870. WJiat is the district of Soho ?—I have defined the district as that portion of the City of Westminster bounded on the north by Oxford Street, on the west by ; Regent Street, on the! east by Charing Cross Road, and oii the south by Piccadilly Circus and Leicester Square. .11871. How long have you -been there ?—Only since August of last y^r, . - 6144. 11872. When you left Stepney you were transferred to Soho ?—That is so. 11873. Will you tell us what are the principal in- dustries' in Soh6?t-rT!he principal industries are "wear- ing apparelj tailoring, jewellery^and cabinet making, and the various allied trades. 11874. Which is the most important ?—I think.tailor- ing. . . V 7 .. , 11875. How. .about, the workshops in Soho; how do they compare with Stepney ?—The comparison is most unfavourable .'generally. There are practically no 3 E402 ROYAL COMMISSION. ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. workshops in Soho—very few genuine workshops. They Ecanx. are mainly domestic rooms used as workshops. 19 FebT~1903. 11876. Few workshops constructed for the purpose of ' being workshops?—That is so. 11877. Now, tell us about the condition of the work- shops in Soho ?—The workshops generally are domestic rooms utilised as workshops. They are very poorly ventilated if they are ventilated >at all, excepting as domestic rooms, and the capacity of the workshops generally is exceedingly small. 11878. You have a house which is constructed for domestic purposes used as a workshop ?—Yes. 11879. And houses with a considerable number of workshops in one house %—Yes. In some of the houses each room has been converted into a workshop or utilised for workshop purposes. 11880. What is the condition of the sanitation of these houses ?—Of course, they cannot possibly be kept in a sanitary condition owing to the fact that the place really becomes a public place. It must be open for trade purposes, and therefore open to the street, and the sanitary conveniences are exposed, and they really become public conveniences, and it is practically im- possible to attach responsibility for any act of in- sanitatdon to any particular person. 11881. How are they open to the public?—-As there are so many occupiers in one particular house the place has to be thrown open to enable persons to pass in and out. If there are 10 workshops in one house there are 10 different communities of workers. 11882. (Chairman.) These are under the superin- tendence of the factory inspectors, that is to say they are workshops within the meaning of the Act?—Yes. 11883. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say they are in a ▼ery filthy state, and very insanitary ?—I should •carcely like to say the workshops in Soho are in a filthy state. 11884. Perhaps I worded it too strongly. Use your own words ?—I mainly desire, in dealing with that part *"'bf the question, to draw a comparison with the places in Stepney, and in order to do that I had to use some expression. I think the places in Soho are much dirtier than they are in Stepney. It is impossible to keep the places in Soho clean under present conditions. 11885. You say, a little lower down in your notes, comparing the two. in Stepney the vast majority of worK is done in proper workshops, the domestic work- room having gradually fallen into desuetude ?—Yes, that is so. 11886. Is that so more in Stepney ?—Yes, almost abso- lutely. There has been such a transformation during the last fiv# or six years in Stepney that almost all work is done in proper workshops in Stepney, and that is the cause of the very high rents in Stepney. 11887. You spoke about that last time ?—Yes. 11888. In Soho you say there are a very few places let in sittings. What do you mean by " sittings " ?— They are very large workshops, accommodating pro- bably 200 persons, and each man pays rent for a sitting in the workshop, and he only has, in return for that rent, the use of his sitting and his proportion of the accommodation provided for manufacturing pur- poses. 11889. {Chairman.) Is that in Stepney or in Soho ?— That is in Soho. 11890. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is that in one particu- lar trade or in all trades £—I think it is mainly con- fined to the tailoring trade. It exists slightly in the jewellery trade, but only slightly. 11891. Are the workshops where the practice prevails of the better kind ?—They are excellent workshops generally. Of course, they are subject to administra- tion, They are easy of supervision, and are kept generally in good condition. The occupier (that is the principal tenant) is held responsible for these places, and there is no difficulty in dealing with him. 11892. Are these sittings rented by aliens or prin- cipally by natives?—I think there is a majority of aliens now. I think it would be right to say that there is a majority of aliens renting these sittings m these places. I find I have here a note that in these workshops, taken at random, I found, in round numbers, 500 persons employed. The nationalities of the workers were:—British, 250; that includes a large proportion of women; almost all the women in these places are British. Swedes, 80; Germans and Austrians, 85; Belgians, 15; Italians, 10; Greeks, 15 ; K-ussians, 15; rench, 5. The remainder were made up oi Hungarian's, Dutchmen, Poles, and doubc- fuls. 11893. I suppose in these workshops the better kind of work is done ?—The very best kind of work. 11894. In tailoring and jewellery, and so on?—Yes„ the very best paid work. 11895. As to the character of the work done, is there any difference in the nationalities? How do the natives compare with the others?—'Practically no dif- ference. I believe that the native is generally re- garded as the best workman, but there is amongst the very best firms a difference of opinion as to that. I think the Swede comes very near him as a good work- man. Certainly the work done by the alien—the Swede, the German, and the Austrian—is just as acceptable to the large employers as the Britisher's. 11896. How about the Swedes; are they coming in increasing numbers?—The Swedes seem to be in- creasing slightly, but not so much as the Germans. The Germans increase much more quickly than the Swedes. 11897. Now, as to the< home-work, and the persons employed in their own homes; are they very largely of the alien class?—They are. 11898* That is the less skilled work than the work done in the workshops?—Yes; I think in the majority of home-work shops it is less skilled work. That is for a good many reasons, of course. 11899. Have you anything further to say about that ? —I should think that where the better class work i# done there is what might be called a regulation price paid to the worker, and, of course, the alien who works for a shop where he does not get that particular price naturally finds it intolerable to work in one of these large workshops where every other worker is receiving the better price. 11900. I do not quite understand the paragraph there m the middle of that page which begins, "The alien question is solely and entirely one of industry." Will you just explain in your own words what that means ?— I think, were it not for the attraction of industry tc these particular areas, viz., the affected areas, we should certainly find dissemination. As it isi now the industry and other causes attract them to these particular areas, and that is whait I mean by saying that I think it is entirely a question.of industry. If the industries were spread over a larger area—if there was a dissemination of industry—I think the dissemination of the particular people would follow. 11901 You mean they congregate there because the industry is there ?—That is so. 11902. Is that a necessity? We have heard a great deal, of course, about the necessity of people living close to their work ?—That does not exist in. Soho. 11903. The tailors might as well work at a distance ?— Yes, the best workmen in Soho do not live in Soho. I«. fact, I have taken the liberty of saying that, resident*« ally, Soho is really a foreign colony. There are very, very few British people living in Soho. Almost all the British people working in Soho live a considerable dis- tance from their work. The people who live in Soho are aliens pure and simple. 11904. They congregate close to their work ?—Yes. 11905. They would rather live in crowded conditions close to their work than live at a distance ?—I cannot say whether it is their preference to do it, but it is a fact. 11906. What do you mean exactly by extending the working area? Do you mean the employers should re- move to a greater distance, or that there should be some arrangement for disseminating the workpeople them- selves ?:—I mean by that that any means for prohibiting the establishment of further work places within these areas would certainly tend to dissemination. If some- thing could be done in that direction, if there was a restriction! on the establishment of more workshops in these areas there would have to be more dissemination. 11907. That you rather dwelt on in your evidence the other day?—Yes. I look to it as the cure for this trouble in all places. 11908. Your object would be to restrict the number of workers otherwise than in properly and regularly- established workshops ?—That is so. It would prevent congestion. We find in these industrial dwellings prac- tically the occupier of every room turns his room intoMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 403 a workshop in Soho. In Stepney that does not exist at all. They are not allowed to work in industrial dwellings in Stepney. 11909. (Mr. Vallance.) Are these industrial dwellings provided by public authority ?—I cannot say. I think they were constructed some considerable number of years ago. 11910. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are there in Soho many block buildings ?>—-There are nothing like so many as in Stepney, but there are a large number in Soho, and they are almost solely occupied by aliens, and in almost every room work is done. My suggestion for dealing with the working area, or rather what 1 meant by that was this: That if one could devise some means as has been suggested for certifying these places and compelling an occupier before he begins to work in any of these rooms to have a certificate from some defined "authority, there naturally would soon be a decrease in these small places, and they would have to go somewhere else. . (Chairman.) That is practically saying if you prevent them coming there they will not come there. 11911. (Sir Kenelm Bigly.) Mr. Evans1 point is that there ought to be some certification of place® fit to be used for workshops?—Yes, but apart from the ques- tion of fitness, if it is desired to prevent overcrowding, this certificate could be withheld at a time when id was considered any particular area was already pro- vided with a sufficient number of workshops. Of course, to prevent them coming there is a totally dif- ferent matter, which the employers in Soho are not prepared to accept at all. 11912. Have you anything you wish to add on that subject of domestic workshops?—I do not think there is anything to add to that. 11913. Now, how about the rents in Soho?1—The rents in Soho are intolerably high—much higher, I think, generally, /than they are in Stepney. I have ventured to give here some instances. 11914. Just give those figures ?—In one house I found four rooms occupied as workrooms. In one I found two persons employed. The occupier pays 10s. 6d. pei week for the one room. In the second room six persons were employed, and I think that that represents the total capacity of the room, which could only hold six. This occupier pays 17s. 6d. per week for the one room. In the next room, with two persons, the occupier pays 13s. per week for one room, and in the next one there are two persons in a small back room, and the occupier pays 7s. 6d. for one room. I think there is nothing, or any- thing like it, to compare in Stepney for high rent with that, and those are really domestic rooms and not work- shops at all. Them there are three rooms, one being exceptionally small and really not being a room at all because it has not capacity for one person, I think, ani they are let at 22s. per week. The occupier, his wife, five children, and an adult relative reside in them and work there too. I think a serious case of infectious disease ".rose there some short time ago. 11915. Now you have told us that the principal trades are tailoring, jewellery and cabinet-making?—That is 80. 11916. And also, I think, you said the Swedes and the •Germans appear to be developing most, and the Ger- mans are increasing ?—Yes. 11917. How about the Swede? Is he a formidable competitor ?■—Yes, he is regarded by the master as being the ipost formidable—the most competent—workman; that is to say, the greatest competitor of the British in that particular trade which is the tailoring trade. 11918. You say some of the best shops in the West- . end are manned by Swedes! only ?—That is so, and I believe in some of the others if they could get Swedes they would have them, for some reasons of their own. 11919. I suppose the supply of Swedes is limited ?— There are not sufficient Swedes to supply the require- ments of the masters in Soho, and during the season, as in Stepney, there is a totally inadequate supply of labour of any kind, whether British or not. 11920. How does that competition of Swedes and Germans affect the native employment in the tailoring trade?—It really does not displace native labour. I take it displacement really means where one man takes work from another at the same price, or at an under price. In that ease he really displaces him, but this cannot be called displacement of labour since, as a matter of fact, without him there would be no one to dot the 6444. work at all. The alien is really a necessity in these cir- cumstances—both Swedes and Germans. M. M, Evans. 11921. There is no under-selling P—None whatever. ^9 19^3 All the aliens, the same as the natives, have the same *_ rate, and do the same amount of work. 11922. But still they have got an increasing hold of the employment in the tailoring trade?—Yes, an ever increasing hold. I believe that the masters in Soho who have been in the trade for some considerable time, really look forward within no> long period to the time when there will be practically no British left in the tailoring trade at all, but they all will be Swedes and Germans, and various other nationalities. 11923. I see you say something in this paper about taking: six specimen workshops, and you say something about there being no apprentices to be found there ?—< Not one. 11924. What do you say about that ?—There were 500 workers in those places, and not a single apprentice, and that is the most appalling fact to be recorded. Not only in the tailoring trade, but in other trades in Soho there is that absence of apprenticeship. I cannot state it as within my own knowledge, but I have heard that the Amalgamated Union of Tailors object to apprentices at all, and therefore there are no apprentices. Certain it is that wherever the Union men are employed in Soho no apprentices are to- be found. In this case there are 500. It naturally follows that the supply of labour must come from some source, and that is the reason why there is such an increase and development in the employ- ment of S wedes and Germans. 11925. Bo you mean there is not a proper amount of native labour growing up ?—That is so—absolutely none. 11926. (Chairman.) That does not depend on the im- migration of laiiens. The diminution of apprentices is very general. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I think Mr. Evans' point is, that this accounts to some extent for the increase of the em- ployment of foreigners?—Most certainly. If this em- ployment were not available for these aliens (they art skilled workmen), there would be a considerably less number of aliens come to this country. That is certain, But they all find work because there are vacanies for them, and they are all good workmen. 11927. Are these foreigners good workmen when they come here, or do -they learn after they come ?—They are good workmen when they come. They learn their trade before they come here, but in the small workshops carried on by aliens! themselves, one always finds the man's own sons and daughters being taught the trade, but in the British workshop there is a total absence of that. 11928. Bo these Swedes and Germans stay here, or do they go back?—They stay here, as a rule. A number have returned after they have left the trade in the West- End of London. (Chairman.) ^ The young men do learn the trade, but there is an objection now to apprenticeship indentures. Nevertheless, they do learn the trade without the in- dentures. 11929. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What do you say to that? —It is commonly supposed by the British -tailor in Soho that the young men will come from elsewhere. 11930. (Chairman.) That may be so in Soho ?—I am speaking of the provincial places. I have taken pains to inquire in the provinces as well. In the provinces, a& in Soho. there are no apprentices. I have visited a good many towns round London where there are tailors' work- shops, and with the exception of alien workshops in tha provinces, I rarely ever found an apprentice. 11931. (Chairman.) How do the young men learn the tailoring trade—they do learn it?—That m>.\y have be*m so, but it certainly does not exist to-day, and that is why the Swede and German must step in to do the work. 11932. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You ape speaking of Soho ? —Yes, and also what I have experienced out of London. My district extends round London into two or three counties, and one never finds apprentices in the work- shops. unless they be workshops carried on by aliens. 11933. Get rid of the term " apprentice." Bo you find young people learning the trade?—No. 11934. (Chairman.) They will die out, and we shall have no English tailors ?—That will be the natural con- sequence. That is admitted by the tailors themselves that in course of time that will be certain. Of course, if the Swede or German—the alien—was restricted, our 3 E 240# ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : MtuM JSwm&s clothes would certainly. come from somewhere, but certainly they would not Be made in Soho. They would probably have to come from Germany or Sweden. 5 11935. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Then, according to you, taking the Soho trade, tq what extent do you say it has passed into the hands of aliens,?—I should say at the present moment, with regard to the tailoring trade, it may safely be said 50 per cent, has already passed— one-half of it. {Chairman.) That is local—that is not general.. ^119361^$^ Kenelm Digby.) That is only sneaking of other'^arts ofi lidikdoai th# tii&de has ipaesedi into the foreigners' hands altogether. In the jewellery trade a larger percentage has passed into foreign hands, ,11937, Are these trades in $oho trades1 that have been brought there, because-one has been told; that the tailor- ing trade in the East-End has been, to a great extent, created by the aliens P^-That is so. , 11938. Is that the case in Soho Pi—No. v 11939. Are these native trades gradually passing i?ito the hands of aliens ?-—Yes, th^y are native trades—a totally different class of work altogether. They really belong to the native in Soho. They are really his right- ful property. The tailoring trade in Soho ought ,tc> be kept in native hands if there was anything like a Supply of labour to do it, I believ6 all the makers 'in the West-End of Ijbndon,1 so fair f fcould;^sq®aih, wotild prefer British labour if they could get it. V ; llb40. Why do not they , get it P^Because;; it. is inot. available at all. 11941. In these particnjla,r trades ?—That is. so. . (Examined by Mr. Norinaii.) 11942. You spoke of the rise of rents in Stepney for workshops ?—-Yes. 11943. Is that rise of rents in Stepney confined to workshops ?—No. The property round the area that has been affected by these new workshops has naturally risen. ......._ ^i944,; In factj the rise crf-rept applies just as much to liv^gKaccQmrnodation ^-rrY>e^ mainly ?to> workshops. 11945. Why mainly?—Because the workshops have been newly-constructed premises, and therefore rente must have risen. , . - - 11946* My point is, that there hasi, been a general rise of resits in Stepney ?—I could not my there has been a . general rise in Stepney. A great many landlords there have not raised their rents, or raised them very little indeed. At least, I hope that is so. 11947. You spoke just now of domestic workshops. Would you define what you mean ?—That is a place where only members of the one family residing there are employed. 11948. Do you mean a workshop which comes under the; Act ?.—It would be !a domestic workshop' under the Act. 11949. There must be a great many places which are domestic workshops in the ordinary sense of the word, but not in the technical sense of the word ?•—That is so. 11950. In fact, would it not be the case that a large part of the machining in the boot trade would be done in the living rooms ?—Yes, a tremendous lot of it is. 11951. Those do not come under your official notice, do they ?—Yes. 11952. You speak from, personal knowledge when you say there is a great deal of this ?—Every place where there is a domestic workshop or not would be inspected. 11953. You define the; domestic workshop as being a workshop under the Act. I am speaking of work done in .living rooms which does not come under the Act, of which you say there is a great deal ?—It would still come under the Act, even if it were done in the living rooms, but the difference is, that if persons other than members of the family were employed on the premises, it would not matter whether they worked in the living rooms or not; it would still be an ordinary workshop and not a domestic one. 11954. The point I want to get at is that there is a great deal of home-work of one sort or another which does ^mot *come under the Act ?—I do not know of any. 1 fancy the. Act at the present time applies to every occupation, it would not matter how small. 11955. We shall have to have evidence on that point? {Chairmaji.) This is the section.. It is Section 115 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901" The ex- pression ' domestic factory and domestic workshop * means a private house, room, or place which, though, used as a dwelling, is by reason 'of the work carried on there a factory or a workshop, as the case may be,, within the meaniixig of this Act." As regards all the other trades, the witness would be right, I think. (Mr. Norman.) Now, you said you would not call it displacement of native labour ?—No, 1 do not call it displacement. 1 1J956, What do you call it ?—<1 cannot say that ^up- plying a need is displacement at all; without these men the trade would not be done at all. 11957. How i do you know that; . how can you make? such ha positive as^rtion as that?—If a master requires? for. the exercise of. his business 500 workmen, and only 250 are available, it is only possible, to do half the- amount of work, but if he gets 250 foreigners to sup- plement the others it cannot be said that the 250 foreigners have displaced anybody. t ; 11958. IJow wa.s,it done before the ,foreigner S\ arrived? —Trade has considerably increased. 11959. But not to the extent of the employment of- all these foreigners; not to this verv great extent ?—- No. 11960. Then how was it done before ?•—I cannot tell -T ■' but I dol xknow tihat the men who have experience of it say that years ago there was no difficulty in getting apprentices to learn tihe work, and therefore the pre- sent supply is really a last resource. 11961. Do you refer tot bespoke tailoring, or ready- made ?—'The ready-made tailoring has really passed out of the hands of the native altogether, "so it can be left out of account in dealing with the question of displacement. 11962. You are speaking - of bespoke work ?—Yes, I am speaking of the best class of work. < 11963. I think you said that except for the alien we should have to have our clothes made in Sweden or Germany ?—No; I said if, the labour were not avail- able, and I am sure in a few years' time it would be utterly impossible. Take the* instance of a large firm in the East-end of London which I have in my mind at- , the present moment; it would be utterly impossible,, on their own showing, to have half the work done here, or anything like it, if these aliens Were restricted coming here. If these people were restricted tins- work must needs be done somewhere else; it could not be done in this country. 11964. You do not think there would be a supply of native labour ?—I am absolutely sure, under present conditions, it would be absolutely impossible. That is not only my idea, but I have taken the trouble to* learn it from the larger firms, and it is their view that if. there were any attempt to deal with this busi- ness the work would have to go elsewhere. 11965. In.another country you mean?—I cannot be taken to mean anything else, I think. 11966. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Will you take a printed. copy of your evidence before you; you will see that you say,, about the middle of the answer, to the Question 11,657, "At midnight and other hours I have watched T women- at work—from the street —but a demand for admission is only the signal for; the cessation of manufacturing. This par- ticular practice is so common," and so on. From that long answer of yours I deduce that sweating is not confined to home-work; there is sweating going on in workshops, too ?—I do not call it sweating. 11967. You do not call all these conditions that you described as sweating at all ?—No*. They :might under certain conditions tend towards sweating a workman, but to work at midnight, or all night for the matter of that, would not constitute sweating. 11968. We come back there to what we argued about before, namely, the definition of sweating; but does sweating go on in workshops as well as in home-work, in your opinion I do not know. Excepting to a very small extent in a few insignificant cases, there is no Sweating in home-work. I should not like to be responsible for a statement that home-work constituted sweating. I know it has been stated to be.so* , 11969. I do not say it constitutes sweating. I want to get from you where sweating is most prevalent ? (Chairman.) We get into a difficulty by . calling itMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 405 sweating. Would it not do, in asking this question, to call it over-hour work, or some general term of that kind? 11970. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Bad conditions of work;. You say in this answer: "Evasion is "almost systematic in ,the employment during illegal hours of women an to. improve the, condition of labour—that is to say, to provide for the health and safety of the workers and secure reasonable hours for the weakest among the workers, such as children and women and young per- sons under the age of 18 ?—Yes, women of any age. 11980',. Is not, in your opinion, one of the results of this^ unrestricted: immigration in the East^end of Lon- don that the objects of the Factory Act are neutralised by the conditions of labour which are found in that district ? With regard to the East-end, have not these objects of the Factory Act been neutralised by the con- ditions ^nder which aliens work ?—Yes, they are, to a certain extent. 11981. You refer in this paragraph from which I have been reading, to constant evasion, and with re- gard to people giving up their names, you refer to a case of two women, each saying she was the wife, and to others being instructed to say they are over 18 years, and so forth?—Tes.: 11982.1 Do not you think that the existence of these things and the continual evasion of the law must have a, detrimental effect upon other workers before whose eyes it , is carried on ?^-Yes, I do. Is not this detrimental effect emphasised by the fact that many native workers are now working on Sundays ?—A good many do work on Sundays. 11984V That is one of the bad effects ?—That is one of the bad effects. 11985. ■ Foreign work has brought about Sunday work to a considerable extent?—Yes, that is so. 11986.: And- alsop5 which- you - strongly emphasise, the wdirkingPon Sunday and the* desecration of the Sabbath, as :we call: it, ^ inthe East-end ?-^—Yes. 11987. TMt ris! confined, in your opinion, to a cer- tain class ofvtheJewish people only. The better class themselves very much, object to that,?—Yes, they d«. 11988. But these people who persist in these things are the class to whom the better class of Jewish ' Evam. people themselves object?—Yes, they object to this, — at any rate. I do not know whether they object to the 19 Feb. 1908. people. 11989. One of your contentions, as I understand, in favour of these conditions is the cheapness to the consumer of the articles produced ?—Yes. 11990. That is an advantage ?—Yes. 11991. Is not cheapness purchased at the price of these conditions which you describe of seven days a Week work, a somewhat doubtful advantage?—I confess it is doubtful whether seven days a week has anything to do with the price of the article. .119,92. There we come back to the economical point ? —If a man works seven days a week, he has a great ^ad- vantage over the man who only works six, but then his profit is augmented to that extent, and I do not think it affects the price of the article. It does not atiect the price of the article at ail., It is a mis- . , take to think that' the alien, if he works long hours, sells his labour for nothing. That is not my experi- ence. 11993. I shall deal with that rather more fully, if the Commission wishes to hear that point. It is a novel doctrine that the length of hours, and the condition of labour, and s even days' work a week have no effect on the price of the article. That is a doctrine of political economy, which is, perhaps, almost peculiar to your- self ?^-I remember quite well you have already said that, but I still adhere to what I said on that occasion, and I am very glad you propose to return to it. 11994. At all events, you would say that the people who work seven days a week have an advantage over the people who work six days a week ?—Yes, I would say ; that much, but not so far as the price is concerned. 11995. You say that the consumer gets no advantage from the seven days' work a week?—No. The man who works the seven days gets the advantage of an extra day's profit. . 11996. But the fact of his having produced more articles in the seven days than he did in the six days does not affect the price of the article I—No. It merely affects the supply of a necessary demand. He is merely sup- plying a demand, and the price is no\ affected. The- price is settled before he does his work. He knows that the more he does the more he will make1, and it does. not affect the price, either the market or the natural price. 11997. Who settles the price?—In the majority of these cases the price is stable. In the production of shoes the price is a stable price. 11998. That is a statement which you make in an- other part of your evidence with regard to the stability of price. Let us take the slipper. How long do you say the price of the slipper has been stable?'—'"Slipper" is a very vague term. 11999. I know there are three or four classes of slip- per, but take any of the classes of slipper—take the lowest class. Has the price in the lowest class of slip- per, which is the one mainly produced by these people, been stable for five years?—No, it is much cheaper now than it was. 12000., You say that is not in the least due to the effect, of the conditions of labour and the enormously long hours that are worked ?—I am not sure the long hours- have anything to do with it. 1 know the man who works- long hours (I have seen the earnings of these men)-, generally draws about twice as much wages every week; as the man who has worked short hours. 12001. If the fact of his working long hours and. drawing; twice as much has no effect on the price of the goods, why does not the employer employ two men for nine hours, instead of one man for eighteen hours ? —I do not see why he should'if one man is capable of doing the work. Sometimes a man who works a similar number of hours will produce twice as much work as an- other. -You say the increased supply of an article has. no effect on the price? 120G3S. (Lord RotkscMid.) lie did not say that?—- No, I did not say anything, of the kind. 12003. (Major Evan'-Gordon.) In other words?—No, I did not say so.406 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. J9*Feb. 1903. 12004. I said that working seven days a week with long hours leads to increased production ?—Yes, it is perfectly obvious. 12005. And I say that the increased production, as a general economic principle, must lead to a reduction of price, unless the demand for that article has in- creased accordingly?—Yes, I agree with that. 12006. Now I come back to my slipper. "I say the lowest claiss of slipper has fallen in price very much. Do you admit that ?:—I think it has fallen in price. 12007. Will you say in one word to what you attribute that fall in price ?—Because it can be produced cheaper. 12008. (Chairman.) Why is it produced cheaper?—As to why it can be produced cheaper, I do not propose to answer that question. That is a question for the manu- facturer. 12009. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You have no theory?— I aim quite sure it is not due to any deterioration in labour, nor is it due to any insanitary conditions or to any question affecting the workmen from outside. 12010. I do not want a long speech to each question. You say, in effect, a man working, say, in this room, for which he has to pay a high rent, with first-class conditions, reasonable hours, six days a week, can pro- duce an article as cheaply as a man working in the most squalid sweater's den?—I do not quite follow your question. 12011. You say the conditions under which an article is produced have no effect on the price, and therefore ^ man working in this room, for which he has to pay a high rent, under reasonable conditions of time, and six days a week, can produce an article as cheap as a man working under the worst conditions?1—Yes; I think when he fixes his price, he must take all those things into account. If a man can produce an article at a lower price'-. He fixes his price according to what he can do. (Chairman.) Are you speaking of fixing the price by the seller to the public, or the price of the working man ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) I am trying to bring out that the hours these people work and the wages they obtain .and the conditions under which they work, have a material effect on the price of the article. (Chairman.) To the public? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes. 12012-3. (Chairman.) To what do you attribute the fall in price to the public? What is your theory?—I do not know, except that there is now a large supply of labour, and, therefore, a larger quantity of these goods produced, and, therefore, they are available. 12014. That is what Major Evans-Gordon asks. If you took the alien immigrants away, there would be a less supply of labour?—I understood Major Evans-Gor- don to say that if there was a larger quantity produced the price would fall correspondingly. 12015. Major Evans-Gordon has been putting to you that the question of the alien immigrant labour has caused the price to fall. You have just said that you attribute the fall in the price to the large amount of labour brought to bear on the article-. 1st not that large amount of labour composed of alien immigrants?1—Yes, ihat would be so. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then I will leave that point. (Mr. Norman.) Might I suggest that if everybody is agreed that Mr. Evans' evidence is quite in the face of all? accepted economic doctrines, it is unnecessary to follow it at such great length. (Chairman.) I am afraid we can hardly take it in that way. 12016. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is one other point I want to put with regard to this. Are you aware that, concurrently with the fall in price of these cheap slippers, of which we are speaking, the material out of which these slippers are produced, has risen, and, in skins—and so on, has very materially risen?—I am not awarle of that. 12017. I state it to you as a fact, of which I shall bring evidence, that the price of the articles out of which these slippers are produced, has risen, and, in spite of thait, the price to the consumer has fallen, which is a very remarkable thing, I think you will admit. You deny that the cheapness of certain commodities pro- duced by alien labour is due to the fact that the workers are working unreasonable, illegal hours, and, in some cases, for seven days a week'*—Yes, that is my opinion. 12018. You deny that that is an element in cheapness at all. Do you consider that labour conducted under those conditions is unfair competition with labour car- ried on in accordance with the law and in the general spirit of harmony of trades unionism ?—There is no com- parison at all. 12019. Would you call it fair or unfair 1—If the people were engaged in producing an article which was being made by a class of people who are more ethical in their way, so far as law is concerned, then I should say there was some unfairness about it, but this work you are speaking about is mainly carried on by men who work in their own rooms and employ no labour at all. There- fore, it is not produced by natives at all. 12020. I thought you said the room employment had completely disappeared ?—We were speaking about the tailoring trade at that time—the domestic workshop, so far as tailoring is concerned. Nobody would ever seriously say that this slipper work is carried on in workshops. It is almost all done in private rooms- 12021. I understood that the home work had disap- peared entirely, and that the rise in rents was due to workshops having been built ?—We were dealing with Soho then. 12022. No, I ajn dealing exclusively with your evi- dence given the other day. Here is a case in which one of the most important industries, namely, sihoe- making, is carried on largely by home work. That is my experience also?—You are speaking of this cheap slipper. It really is not a slipper at all. 12023. Shall we call it a pump ?—There are a num- ber of workmen working in their own homes who pro- duce this cheap article. When I said the domestic workshop had almost disappeared, I think we were deal- ing with Soho. 12024. No, I am talking of the evidence you gave the other day. I will quote it directly. It is question 11674, when, in reply to Lord Rothschild, you said you had never heard of an English workman being displaced by a foreigner. In that connection, do you mean an Englishman as opposed to a Jew?—I have spoken of the English workman being displaced by a foreigner. 12025. What do you mean by English wc^iunan i—- Of course, practically all the people in Stepney ar© foreigners—the vast majority. 12026. Please answer my question simply. I ani not leading you into* any trap. I only want to know what you mean by an English worker. Do you include Eng- lish Jew and Anglo-Saxon ?—Yes. Of course, he would be an Englishman. He is not an alien. 12027. You say no English Jewish workman has in a single instance been displaced by a foreigner ?—Not to my knowledge. I know of no case. That answer re- fers entirely to work in workshops. As to what happens outside workshops, I do not propose to deal with that. 12028. We shall bring evidence about this point, which is very important. Are you aware that recently there have been Jewish Trades Unions meetings and very largely attended meetings of Jewish workers in the East End complaining bitterly of the displacement by the incoming foreigner?—I have read of such meet- ings. 12029. You would say that that is a mis-statement ?— I should prefer not to deal with it at all. 12030. But you do deal with it ?—Not with the meet- ings. I have not said a, word about the meetings. 12031. You deal with the point that English work- men are not displaced by foreigners. I point out to you that at the meetings in the East End lately, and largely attended meetings, English Jews have bitterly complained of that particular point?—Yes, and still the masters cannot get sufficient workers even to-day. There always will be a residuum who will protest against practically anything. 12032. You say that the English-Jewish workman is not displaced by the foreigner ?—That is so. 12033. I shall have to bring evidence to diametrically contradict that point by the working men themselves ? —I think I also added that, of course, the English work- man has benefited by-the foreigner's labour. The English-Jewish workman, too, of course? (Chairman.) It includes them all.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 407 12034. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I put it to you that there are a large number of Jewish small employers and boot finishers, skilled workmen, walking about in the East End of London unemployed at the present moment ? —It. may be so. 12035. You would not at first sight believe that %— I have no reason to disbelieve it, except that I have been down there once or twice recently and at almost ail the factories I saw notices up for certain class of workmen required. 12036. Anyhow, you would consider, from your know- ledge, the protests that are being made ait the present moment in the East End. are not really worth much consideration as to displacement of workmen ?—I pref er not to express an opinion about that at all. (The proceedings were adjourned for a sihort time.) 12037. {Major Evam-Gordon.) To Question 11,685 you say, " So far as I know, the wages have always been sufficient for his subsistence " ?—-Yes. 12038. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) In a previous passage, " subsisting allowance " is mentioned ; ought not that to be " subsistence allowance " ?—Yes. 12039. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you say, "There- after they are reliable guardians of themselves, and in, that respect there is nobody more keen, or who can make a better bargain, than the alien, after he has been here a very ishort while; and he takes care that his wages shall be quite up to the standard " ; what do you call a "subsistence allowance"?—That would vary according to a man's requirements, I think; one man could subsist on 20s. a week, and another ,man on 10s. a week, I suppose. There are very small sub- , sistence allowances in some cases ; but in no case are they lower than the necessities of the case require. 12040. You mean by " subsistence," a bare living i~>. some cases ?—Yes. 12041. Keeping body and soul together?1—I should not like to put it in that way ; I prefer to use the worA '* subsistence-." 12042. Then, a little further on, in talking of sweat* ing dens, of which you gave a very painful descrip- tion, you say, " Here, the alien is imprisoned day and night, and kept at work in a semi- nude state for a starvation allowance " ; is that the sub- sistence allowance that you above refer to?—Yes, it would be in that particular case. 12043. A starvation allowance?—Practically a starva- tion allowance. 12044. I put it keeping body and soul together; but that comes to about the same thing ?—I do not dispute that it is that, but I do not use those words, that is all. 12045. You say that they soon become reliable guardians of themselves ?—Yes. 12046. Where are the people who inhabit these sweat- ing dens recruited from 1—From the influx of foreigners, of course. 12047. The new aliens chiefly ?—Yes, the new aliens. 12048. There are sufficient new aliens to keep the sweating dens filled ?—There are so few of them that it is a question that could be practically left out of account altogether. 12049. You mean there is so little sweating that it does not matter?—There are so few sweating places now; there were a good many once upon a time. 12050. I shall call evidence about that; but I want to point out to you that just at present among Jewish working men, as I said before, there is a very marked agitation with regard to the amount of sweating that is going on. Does that surprise you ?—Of course that all depends on what working men regard as sweating; that is the question. Accepting conditions similar to those laid down by the House of Lords' Committee on Sweat- ing, I say there is very little. 12051. What do you refer to when you make all these remarks about, " From these dens they seem never to emerge," and so on?—There is a small number of places where foreigners, when first they arrive here, go, or are taken to, and are taught some particular trade ; and during the first two or three weeks of that period here I consider that the condition under which they work reallv is imprisonment, from the very fact that they are kept at work long hours, and very often they sleep on the premises. They never get out of the clutches of that particular master, until they have learnt something of Mr. If. local conditions. Evans. 12052. Then, what you say here is not accurate: jg Feb, 2903. " From these dens they never seem to emerge " ?—I mean _!_ to say. that these places seem always to exist, because there always seems to be a supply of people to feed them. They do pass out into proper workshops in time, but the places are never absolutely done away with ; that is my meaning. 12053. There is always a supply of people ; that is what you mean by " never emerge " ?—Yes. 12054. Then you say, in answer to Lord Rothschild^ at Question 11686, that " machinery will abolish sweating." Does machinery complete the process in boots or in shoes?—It is very fast coming to that. We have had an instance of that during the last few weeks, which I have no doubt you have noticed; a machine has now been introduced which does the entire thing, an indis- pensable part of the finishing of a boot. There are prac- tically only one or two small processes now left before it can be finished by machinery; and then this work will not be done in these places, because there will be no necessity for them. 12055. You say that there are still processes remain- ing in which these men follow the machine ; that is to say, after the machine has done its portion of the work, then it is handed over to men who complete the shoe ?— They do not begin it at the present time. 12056. There is a certain class of workmen who follow the machine as it is called ?—Yes. 12057. It would be those men, of course, who are still upon the long hours and bad conditions ?—It would be that particular class of person. 12058. Then, Sir Kenelm Digby asked you at Question 11687: " Are you speaking chiefly of the boot trade, or of the tailoring trade," and your answer is " Practically it does not exist in other trades. It is in the leather trade that it exists, or has existed." You say there are* none of these bad conditions in the tailoring trade?—- Very few indeed; I believe there are a few, but they" are very small. 12059. Sweating does not exist in the tailoring trade ?'* —No. 12060. I shall have to bring evidence on that point,, too. Do you know anything about the baking industry ?4 —Yes. I do. 12061. Are you aware that at a conference of masters . and men lately, it was brought out, and not denied, that the alien labourers were working from 95 to 108 hours a . week for seven farthings an hour?—I know it has been so stated. 12062. But vou deny it?—Oh, no, I do not deny it; I cannot possibly deny that. I have no doubt in some particular cases it is a fact. 12063. It is not confined, then, solely to the leather trade ?—What is not confined ? 12064. These bad conditions of work, sweating, and so - on, are not confined to the leather trade if it can be shown that bakers are working for 95 to 108 hours a, week?—I would not say that that was sweating. 12065. You would not ?—No. 12066. We come back to a difference of opinion again;. Now, I want to take you to Question 11704, where j in reply to Lord Rothschild, you siay: "I daresay most of these aliens who come over here, from inquiries I have made, are already equipped for slipper making." Are you aware that in Russia and Poland, where most of these, or a great number of these people come from, there is no such thing as slipper-making?—That may be so, but the equipment in this case might consist of knowing practically nothing, since in the making of slippers what is required to be known by these men who make them, is practically acquired in a few hours. 12067. You say in another part of your evidence (and it is convenient to mention it here), at Question 11727 that slipper-making is not skilled work at -all, and that it needs only energy and capacity to do it?—Yes, 12068. You say the wages are low, but it is unskilled work ?—Yes. 12069. You, of course, hold that view, but on this point again I shall have to call evidence from among the workers themselves to show that that is not at all iho fact, and that it is work requiring very considerable skill. They make it inside out. You know they turn the shoe inside out and sew it inside?—Yes, I do.•'408 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : H. Evans. 12Q70. That, I am informed by the very beet workmen in the industry, is work requiring very considerable skill, and. that in no single instance has it been known that a man coming over here has been equipped for that par- . ticular. trade. Turning back to Question 11689, you . say, referring to sweating, " In, tailoring there is , very little indeed. .The ordinary, tailors'. workshops in Stepney generally may be said to average twenty persons, but they are genuine workshops; they are not dwellings or domestic rooms." It does not follow because they are genuine workshops that there is no sweating, and no bad conditions in them ?—I have not known of any myself. 12071. Why do you say, at Question 11705, "The task master sometimes thrives in our largest work- shops where hundreds of hands are employed." How do you reconcile that with your other answer P—I mention 1 one case, which is th6 only case in my mind. 12072. You say, "The task-master sometimes thrives" ?—It has come to my mind by referring to this report. I did not think of it for the moment, but I knew of that particular case. 12073. Then you should alter your statement, and say, " one single task-master/' because you only knew of that on© single case?—If you like to split hairs to that extent. 12074. It is not a case of splitting hairs, but it is very important. You say at one moment they are genuine workshops, and no better conditions prevail,, and very shortly afterwards you say, " the task-master sometimes thrives in our largest workshops'" ?—'May I say they are good, genuine, workshops, with one exception, in Stepney P {Chairman.) He does proceed to say, " One case is fre&h in my mind, and doubtless exists to-day." He is Only speaking of one case. 12075. {Major Evans-Gordon.) It needed explanation, .and that is why I aisked the question. Then at •Questions 11706 and 11707, you say that there are ,30, or probably 40,. but between 30 and 40 different processes—different occupations you call them—as re- gards the boot trade?—Yes. 12076. Can you specify what those 30 different occu- pations are ?—No ; indeed I cannot. I should not like to try. 12077. What do you call an occupation?—For- tunately, I can refer to a Board of Trade report upon this matter. It would be utterly impossible for any individual to give them. 12078. Except a man who is in the trade?—Probably he would not be able to mention the whole lot as they are given in this report of the Board of Trade ; 100 different processes are given in the Board of Trade . report. These are taken from a very large boot and shoe manufacturer's place in Leicester. They were given to the Board of Trade in their last inquiry into this question, and they gave them as 100, but they • comprise a tremendous lot of subsidiary occupations ; "the 30 or 40 I have mentioned would be occupations. .12079. Do you say in these 30 different occupations there are 30 different classes of men employed?—In ►each place I should say there would be, although that must necessarily be approximate. I cannot pretend to be exact. 12080. But, roughly, do you mean to say there are jabout 30 separate occupations ?—I should reckon them out by referring to this list, but you will notice I mid, " It may be best stated ini this way: The manu- facture of a shoe now really employs 30 different occu- . pations—I may say about 30 approximately." 12081. What I want to find out is how many of these occupations are separate occupations, in which a man is exclusively employed ?—That would depend upon the extent of the premises: In some cases one man would be employed for half a dozen occupations, . and in. another case there would be one man for each occupation. ? 12082. There are cases in which one man is doing half a dozen of these different occupations ?—That is so; but in the native trade one man does the whole lot in a good many cases. 12083. That squares with what information I have got. I have been inquiring into this, and in all the shops I have visited they do not know what is meant by 30 different occupations. They say you can go on calling this a process and that a process—a, man put- ting a tjntack into his mouth you could call an occu- pation,. but it is not subdivided to anything like that extent in the shops I have been in?—The sub-divisions are given as 100 by the Board of Trade, so it is not my statement. I had not seen that report of the Board of Trade when I gave my answer as 30; I merely made a practical guess of the thing. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I shall call people to explain that. 12084. (Chairman.) The word "process" is better. It is not an occupation. " Occupation " means a dif- ferent trade. ' You mean one man does a great many of these processes?—Yes. 12085. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then at Question 11713 you say: "I do not agree that there has been any fall in wages in the leather trades in East London at all." Do you state that as a fact or as your opinion? —So far as my knowledge goes. 12086. (Chairman.) In respect of what time are you speaking, and what period does that cover ?—That covers the time since the last inquiry of 1888. 12087. ('Major Evans-Gordon.) You say there has been no fall in wages ?—-So far as I know, there has been no fall; I have never become acquainted, while I have been in Stepney, with any case where there has been a general fall in prices. There may be isolated cases, but I am speaking of the time since 1888, when I have been in Stepney. 12088. Do you say it is your opinion that there has been no fall in wages in the leather trades in East Lon- don at all ?—I can merely give my opinion here. 12089. You do not state it as a fact?—As far as I can be humanly certain, it is. 12090. (Chairman.) Does the leather trade include shoe-making and slipper-making ?—I use that term to embrace the whole. 12091. What does it embrace ?—Shoes and slippers. 12092. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And the leather trade generally. (Chairman.) It is the manufacture of leather ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes; that is what we are dealing with ?—Not the manufacture of leather. 12093. Your work deals with the workshops in which the raw article is turned into boots and shoes ?—Yes.' . 12094. If I produce workmen who have been em- ployed in this trade during the whole of their lives, and they say there has been a very, very considerable fall in wages, would you say that they were stating what is not a fact?—If they know it is a fact, and state it personally, I am prepared to accept it. If I had known it during my experience I should have stated here that I had come across such cases. 12095. You have said a. good workman in the tailoring trade earns 70s;, to 80s. weekly?—Yes. 12096. How many would you say are earning such wages as these?—1The percentage of the total number do you mean? 12097. Yes. Does that refer to a considerable num- ber of persons ?—No. It would not represent a con- siderable number, but it is possible for workmen who are good skilled workmen to earn that money. 12098. Do you mean very exceptional cases, or in an average case, or what ?—No, I should not say in any exceptional cases ; it is a question of a man's capacity to a great extent to do a certain kind of work. 12099. Would you say that these people are able to earn 70s. to 80s. all the year round ?—No; it could not be all the year round, but I s-hould say, speaking roughly, taking the machinist in a tailor's workshop, when they^ have a week's work he must be a very poor machinist who earns less than £3 in the week. If he is anything like a good workman] he can easily earn that, and I have come across any amount of cases where they earn considerably more. 12100. # Is this work that goes on for any consider- able period %—It is a season trade really. 12101. You mean they earn at the rate of 70s. to 90s. a week ?—Not all the year-round ; it is a season trade. 12102. You mean that .a highly-skilled man could earn 70s. to 80s. a week during a part of the year ?— I should say it could not possibly be all the year round; there are very few shops where they are kept going all the year round, ' very few indeed. • - 12103. You cannot say what proportion these very highly-paid men bear to -the bulk of the workers ?—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 409 It could be done, but it would be a very approximate quantity, if I did say. 12104. Then you say in the same answer that you think it would be good for the Jews and good for the match trade if the aliens were to take over the match trade ; what is the meaning of that ?—I think the match trade is so low, and the earning capacity of the workers so low, that I certainly am convinced the aliens would not work under the present conditions; there would have to be a betterment, otherwise there would be no match trade afc all. . 12105. Do you say that the alien worker gets, as a rule, better wages, better terms, and better hours than the English worker?—That is a very general thing, and X should not like to commit myself to it. 12106. Let us take the point about the matches. Do you say the alien would be better able to make a better bargain in the way of wages than the: Englishman?—I am bound to think they would do better at the match ^ business than our people are doing now. 12107. Would there not be a displacement by aliens of English people who are making a living, although a very poor living, in the match, trade?1—No, I should not s^y that. ,12108. Then who would benefit?—The trade would benefit generally. I should imagine that we should have matches brought into this country if aliens got hold of the trade, similar to what is done in the mantle trade; and various other trades now carried oil by aliens. 12109. The trade would benefit, you stay, but not the English workers?5—If the alien® kept up the price I suppose the English workers' price would rise propor- tionately. 12110. Why, if dismissed from their employment ?— I do not mean in the sense of displacement. 12111. How are the aliens to go. into the match trade unless they do displace the English workers?1—There seems to be a good market in the match trade, and such a tremendous amount of matches are shipped to this country now. 12112. (Chairman.) Where are matches imported from ?—Norway 'and Sweden. I have seen it stated in some of the returns that the importation is'enormous. it-12113,i (^ajns-:Gordon.) You say that you think all the trades carried on by aliens are under healthy conditions so far as remuneration for labour is con- cerned ?—Yes, speaking generally. 12114. And you say that even the sweated slipper trade cannot be properly exempted from this conclusion?— Yes, a slipper maker can earn 30s. or 40s. a week. 12115. 30s. or 40s. a week ?—Yes. 12116. That is another point that I shall have to bring evidence to contradict, because T~ca,njiot let it pass. I am informed by the very best workers., who will back themselves to .sit down and produce more " stuff " than any man you can bring alongside them, that they will guarantee to turn out more stuff in a shorter space of time and of a better quality than any man you can produce; and they say it is impossible for them to earn 30s. a week, let alone 40s. a week. However, we will not argue upon that now ?—I would rather say that that is not a question of opinion. I stated that, haying seen a good many wages books where the entry is miade of what the men are paid ; and in very, very few instances do they come below 30s. A man may come here and sav that he cannot earn it, but that is a question of the man's capacity ; a good miany do not earn it that is true. . 12117. (Chairman.) Where are the books to be found m which you say the entries are ?—Practically, all the manufacturers keep wage books. 12118. Is there any objection to giving their names ?— There is never any objection to supplying me with any particulars of that kind when I have asked for them. 12119. Will you state the names of the persons who you say have these entries in their wage books ?—I can- not speak to. their willingness to allow me to disclose such particulars. The particulars were given to me merely in order to acquaint this Commission with what I regarded as the fact. . ^^4^. wmmimioate with them and ascer- taan if they have aivy objection to making that statement m evidence ?—I will rdo so, my lord—in fact, I believe it is already intended to produce that evidence. 12121. {Lord ^Rothschild.) You had better get their 6144. names, because that will save a good deal of evidence hereafter?—I will, my lord. 12122. (Major JE vans-Gordon.) Then you go on to give jg evidence about the tailors, and you say that they make from £3 to £4 and £5 a week ; but you do not say that they doi that all the year round ?—It cannot possibly be all the year round. 12123. Now, to go back for one moment to Questions 11686 and 11692 you say that " machinery will abolish the sweating " ?—-Yes. 12124. And then, at Question 11731, you say that " home work has become universal owing to sub-divi- sion " ?—Yes. 12125. Yet, at Question 11804, you say that " home workshops will in course of time be non-existent"?— Yes. 12126. How do you reconcile that with the statement that "home work has become universal owing to sub- division " ?—That is so during the past few years. Prac- tically, since that strike in the boot trade, when one of the arrangements was that work had to be done in proper workshops, a good many fell away from the agreement altogether, and then the work was divided between the home workshops and the others. That became very general; but now machinery is doing away with that altogether. 12127. What you say is that home work has become universal owing to sub-division %—I am speaking of the period during which I have been in Stepney; it does not refer to the present moment. 12128. We must take the words a,s they i are stated ; I do not want to hustle you at all, but you say that " home work has become universal owing to sub-divi- sion"?—Yes, that is so. • 12129. Ha® it become universal or not I1—It has been universal during the last few years ; and the introduc- tion of machinery is gradually driving it back into the. factories. 12130. Then, at Question 11707, you say that " sub- division is due to machinery " ?—Yes. 12131. (Chairman.) You also say that a this sub- division is'the outcome of alien enterprise "; what is- your ground for saying that ?1—'That is an expression of opinion,'of course/ The alien has adapted himself to what I may call the internal working of the trade; hfe> has adapted himself to the transitional features in the boot and shoe trade. The native has not done sfo the ■■ native seems more inclined to restrict sub-division by machinery, or to restrict the output by machinery; but the alien is more inclined to f avour that sort of thing because it increases the output. . 12132. And you call that " suib-division " ?—Yea* ^ ^ 12133. Then it is machinery really ?—Yes. 12134. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say sub-divisdon is due to machinery?—If it had depended on the natives the^ sub-division could not have taken place, because 1 believe if no others had done the sub-divided portion of the work it could not have been done at all. I think the native shoe manufacturers would have been too strong. 12135. We shall deal in evidence with that sub-divi- sion. Sub-division, you say, is due to machinery?— 12136. And home work is due to sub-division ?—It has - been. 12137. And sweating is largely carried on in home - work 1—Not largely, but to some extent. 12138. You would be most likely to find sweating in' home work ?l—Yes. 12139. How then can the increased use of machinery be used as an argument for the aibolition of " sweating " ? —It would abolish the home workshops altogether in the course of time. ~ 12140. So that to say that home work has become universal owing to sub-division, or, in other words owing to machinery, is not really the case ?—It is not quite correct to include.it in the present tense; it may be better to say that it has been pretty universal. It is a review of the past eight years that is dealt with in my statement, and not what really exists at the present moment. r -u,1?1?1' T^?n1 -T011 m',ake a statement at Question 11777 that I would like to have a little further explanation ol. You say: Very frequently among; natives thev take work out from a place and they cannot tell very 3 F410 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. Evans. 19 Feb. 1903. frequently wheal it is taken back whiat they are going to be paid for it; but I would not say that that was a dishonest transaction." You say that people take work away not knowing what they are going to be paid for it when it is done?'—Yes, in a good many cases the natives do. 12142. English and Jewish, the Anglo-Saxons, and the Jews ?—Yes, if you like to call them Anglo-Saxons ; it is not the aliens, at any rate. 12143. English and Jewish. Do you mean to say that English and Jewish working men, or English work- ing men, go to a place and take work out without bar- gaining what they are going to get for it when it is done ?—I had not particular men in my mind at all in that answer ; that refers to a particular trade, and there are no Jews employed in it. I do not think a Jew would be likely to take work out without knowing what he was going to' get for it. 12144. (Lord Rothschild.) What particular trade do you refer to ?'—'The ladies' blouse trade. 12145. Are there no Jews in that trade?—Not to my knowledge ; there may be a few who work in the bespoke work, but not in the wholesale, generally speaking. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I want to bring this point out; you were meaning the English Jew and the Anglo- Saxon as well ; because it is a well-known fact to me, and I believe well known in the trades, that no work- man takeis work out without knowing what he is going to be paid for it when it is done, whether it is in boot- making or cabinet-making, or any branch you like to mention. You should have said that it was with re- gard to s> special trade. 12146. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There have been a great many complaints all over the country that that is done ; and the " Particulars " Clause in the Factories Act was aimed at that?—I think the "Particulars" Clause applies to this very trade. 12147. {Major Evans-Gordon.) It is a remarkable statement with regard to the East End, because! it is well known by people familiar with the conditions there that that is the one subject which is mainly discussed among working people, what they are going to get for their ten or twelve dozen of " stuff " which they are going to take away. And it would not be right in those cases to say that they take work without knowing what they are going to be paid for it?—The aliens will not do it; it is the natives who do it. 12148. That is why I wanted to emphasise the point. You say it is a fair and square bargain between em- ployers and employed. But if he does'not know what he is going to get, how is it a fair bargain ?—That is nothing to do with this question about taking out work without knowing the price he is going to receive for it. 12149. Certainly it is. You say, at Question 11777, that a man takes work out without knowing the price lie is going to be paid for it ?—That is not taking work out from the place. That really deals with the sweat- ing places, the only places I consider to be real sweat- ing places. 12150. At Question 11777, you say: "Very fre- quently among natives they take work out from a place, and {key cannot tell very frequently when it is taken "back what they are going to be paid for it" ?—Yes. (Chairman.) That occurred in Lancashire until the "Factory Act was passed, and until they got that " Par- ticulars " Clause, when they were bound to have the exact particulars of the goods they take out. 12151. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I drew attention to -the definition of the word " native " here, because it is not characteristic of Jewish workers that they should do that?—I understand that we are dealing with the matter as between natives and aliens. 12152. You say that the native takes work from place to place—we have already discussed the question of what we mean by a " native," and I wanted to know whether it applied in this particular case?—No ; simply because this is a trade which is not affected by Jews at all. 12153. You are referring to the blouse trade?—That was in my mind, and I merely gave it as an instance. 12154. The statement was remarkable, and, there- fore, I wanted to ask you about it. Then Sir Kenelm Digby asks you, at Question 11819 : "What you say is, that lemg hours taken alow is not commonly called ' sweating' ?—No, it is to the advantage of the worker^ for them to work long hours " ?—Yes. 12155. Does not the price paid for the work oblige the men to work long hours?—No, not at all : it is nothing whatever to do with it. 12156. If the work was much higher paid, they would work just as long hours, you say?—I should say a good many of them would, because their earnings, of course, would rise proportionately. 12157. (Chairman.) The longer they work, the more they get?—Yes. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I say that it is only the long hours which enable many of them to live at all; they work like slaves, because they could not live unless they did work like slaves. (Chairman.) If we can get particulars of the wages from some authentic source, that will answer your ques- tion. If we can get these manufacturers to tell us, tha* "will solve the question. 12158. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes. Now, let me take you back to question 11685, where you mention- the " subsistence allowance." You said there was no case of which you knew where they could not get a subsistence allowance. I see, at Question 11828, you are asked : " Do these migratory employers frequently employ fresh hands ?" and you say: " They very often have to, be- cause in a good many cases they pay no wages " ; that would not be a subsistence allowance, would it?—You can scarcely call .a subsistence allowance "wages." There are cases where a man receives only as little as 6s. for a week's work—that cannot be called wages ; it is a return for learning a trade, for ,a certain amount; of labour ; but the 6s. is not given as a reward for work done ; it is merely as a subsistence allowance, and it cannot be called anything else. 12159. When you say " no wages," would you include in that a man who gets 6s. a week ?—I think so ; I think the 6s. cannot be regarded as wages. 12160. (Chairman.) Is this the " greeners' " period of existence ?—It is, my Lord. 12161. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You said this morning that the Tailors' Union objected to apprentices ?—-I pre faced that particularly by saying that I only knew it by it having been told me ; I do not know that as an absolute fact. I have not been present at a union meet ing when the minute was passed that no workman should work where an apprentice was employed. It is only a deduction drawn from the present state of affairs and from what we find. 12162. Is your information from that source to the effect that they object to apprentices—that they do ob- ject to apprentices, from what you have heard 1—Yes ; I do not know that they would admit it, but they prac- tise it—that is the great thing, 12163. You say, as I understand you, that both in London and in your district around London, or dis- tricts with which you are familiar around London, young persons, young English persons, were not to be found in the workshops learning the. trade ?—-Very rarely ; there always are one or two- cases. 12164. Does that imply that the Tailors' Union has deliberately adopted a policy which must eventually cut off his supply of recruits?—T would not say the union has done it, but it is certainly a custom which has become contagious. 12165. It is condemning itself to die of inanition ?— That is so. 12166. And, of course, the union will die, if it does not get any recruits, from lack of subscriptions ?—The aliens join the unions ; they are just as anxious for protection as the natives are ; it probably will be in time an Aliens' Union. 12167. Do the aliens in Soho join the unions ?—Yes ; and so they do in Stepney. In the recent strike in the boot and shoe trade, a good number of the aliens stood loyally to the unions. 12168-70. Is it not a fact, with regard to unions, in the East End, that they join when a strike is on, and dwindle away when the strike is over ?—I have no experience of that- -That is, I believe, the fact, that they join when there is a strike, but they are not forthcoming when there is not one. That i* all I need trouble you with.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 411 -(Mr. Vallance.) With regard to the term " domestic workshop," what is the leeral definition of that? (Chairman.) It is Section 115 of the Act of 1901: " The expressions ' domestic factory' and ' domestic workshop mean a private house, room, or place which, though used as a dwelling, is, by reason of the work carried on there, a factory or a workshop, as the case may be, within the meaning of this Act, and in which neither steam, water, nor other mechanical power is used in aid of the manufacturing process carried on there, and in which the only persons employed are members of the same family dwelling there." 12171. (Mr. Vallance.) What is the meaning of "tenemented workshop"?—That is a large building where there are many, probably ten or twenty, or more than one workshop in rooms really sub-tenanted. 12172. Are you referring now to a workshop which is let in sets ?—No ; for instance, in Tenter Street, Good- man's Melds;—that would be a tenemented workshop— there are twenty or thirty workshops in the building occupied by several persons. (Chairman.) Section 149 deals with tenemented work- shops. 12173. (Mr. Vallance.) With reference to those enormous rents which you quoted in Soho—rooms being used as workrooms and residences: A employs two persons and pays 10s. 6d. weekly ; how many would occupy that as a residence ?—I am not aware of any capacity laid down for occupation as a residence. 12174. There are two persons occupied in work there ? —It is both a residence and a workshop at the present time. 12175. Does that apply equally to the six persons ?— No, that does not. The occupier of that workshop does not live in Soho at all; he merely uses that room as a workshop. ,12176. B employs six persons and pays 17s. 6d. rent for that one room—that is where it is a workshop only? —Yes, I suppose when it is let to him he can use it for any purpose he likes, but he elects to use it for a work- room. " 12177. (Lord Rothschild.) You have been askec] about the cheapness of slippers ; would you consider it a great evil for slippers and boots to be cheaper now than they were some years ago ?—I consider it a very great advan- tage - 12178. So do I. Now, granted that they are cheaper, would not you ascribe the cheapening to improved machinery?—Very greatly. 12179. To' the improved method of subdivision ?—Yes, that is so ; I attribute it solely to that. The larger ou put is due to the improvement in the production. 12180. And the saving in material?—I should think there is none, 12181. The material is cut by machinery, and {/here is les^ waste?—Yes. 12182. And also there are probably smaller profits re- served to the seller ?—I imagine the majority of the sellers exist on very small profits now. 12183. ^ When the rate of wages is compared now with former times, is it not something in this way—that a slipper-maker or a bootmaker used to earn so much formerly, say, 12s., for a pair of boots, and, say, he made two pairs of boots, that would make 24s. a week; and now the same man has probably 30 or 40 pairs of slippers passing through his hands, and he gets Is. a pair, or whatever it may be. I do not know whether you quite follow my argument. When we are told here that wages for a pair of boots or slippers is so much less, the com- parison is made between what a man got for making a whole boot, and what he gets now for making a twentieth, or thirtieth, or fortieth part of a boot?— Yes, that is my opinion. I think he now makes three times as much, although he sometimes gets less for it. 12184. You follow my argument?—Yes, I do and I quite agree with it. ' .. 12185. (Chairmo,n.) Surely, it comes to this; if a man is working entirely as he did formerly, and Went through the whole process and made the boot, or if he takes a sub- division and takes a, portion of the thing, you need to look at how much the man under those two different con- ditions can earn, say, by a day's labour of ten hours ?— Yes ; he does earn more. 12186. The manufacturers will tell us what the man can earn, and whether it is earned with double effort, or whether it is subdivision or the entire production ?— Yes. My information is based on what, the manufac- turers tell me. 12187. We can solve it if the manufacturers tell Ue what they do get, and what they did get?—Yes, my Lord. 12188. (Lord Rothschild.) Have you known any case where workmen have been brought over from abroad by contract for certain work ?—I have not known of any. 12189. (Chairman.) You are an inspector under the Home Office, and in your evidence in question 11657 you say, " Then the powers c*f entry only entitle an inspector to visit a workshop after 9 p.m."?—Yes. 12190. That surely is not correct ? Is not that a mis- take ?—No, that is quite correct. You can only enter a workshop after nine, because i+ is during the night- time. 12191. This is the power given to the inspector: " An inspector shall, for the purpose of the execution of this Act, have power to do all or any of the following things— namely (a) to enter, inspect, and examine at all reason- able times, by day and night, a factory and a workshop and every part thereof " ?—To enter a factory or a work- shop. 12192. What is this ?—That is what I say—only to enter a workshop. The hands are put in rooms which are not known to the inspector. 12193. I want to get it right. You have said the powers of entry only entitle an inspector to visit a work- shop after 9 p.m. "That is ridiculous. They have got power to go in in the daytime, and not onlv at night ?— Yes, I see. That is not so at all. What I meant was,, where hands were put in private rooms we have no right to enter those private rooms after nine; wo can only go into the workshop. 12194. But here you suggest you have no power to enter before nine. " The powers of entry onlv entitle an inspector to visit a workshop after 9 p.m." ?_We have got power to enter the workshops after nine.. 12195. We must alter it, because that must not go forth with your authority. It is no use you saying you adhere to it, because it is not so. I have read to you what is your authority from Section 11 of the Act of 1901?—Of course, it is certainly not a fact that you can only enter after nine o'clock. 12196. Then why not say so, and let us strike it out and put what is right in?—You can enter a workshop after nine, but you cannot enter a private room after nine. 12197. You cannot enter a private room only after nine o'clock?—We can enter it before. Then what you are saying here is that you can only enter it after ? 12198. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The word "only" seems to be out of place. The powers of entry entitle an in- spector to visit workshops, and nothing else?—That i& so. (Chairman.) Where does " after nine o'clock " come* m? 12199. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What you mean is, you* cannot enter a private room ?—Not after nine o'clock, because it is night time. 12200. (Chairman.) You say just the contrary in this answer. Let us strike that out. Does not this repre- sent your powers : " That an inspector shall have power to enter, inspect, and examine at all reasonable times, by day and night, a, factory and a workshop, and every part, thereof, when hei has reasonable cause to believe that any person is employed therein, and to* enter by day any place which, he has reasonable cause to believe' to be a factory or workshop." Are these the powers which an inspector has?—Yes, my Lord. Mr. H. Evans. 19 FebT~[903. 6144. 3 F 'l412 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. Solomon Van Amstell, called; and Examined. Mr,S_. J. 12201. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What are you P—A ms e boot clicker and pattern cutter. 19 Feb. 1903. 12202. How many years have you . been engaged in your business ?—Eighteen. 12203. During that time you have familiarised your- * self with all the details of the trade?—Yes, I have worked at pretty nearly all the branches. . 12204, Slippers or shoes ?—Not slippers; shoemaking. 12205. It would be convenient if you just read out what you have got to say P—I start with a definition of sweating, because the term recurs several times through^- out my statement. The term "sweating" as used in this statement is descriptive of industrial conditions, and distinct from methods of production. It "exists in all trades where a system of out-working is pre- valent, and. it involves the employment of a middle- manor " master," who in turn employs men and women who work in his (the master's) workshop, which is ;not under the control of the factory, and where the .master pays his work-people a price or wage lower than what he receives from the factory. Two characteris- tics of sweating are long hours and low wages. The method of remuneration may be one of two kinds: (1) A piece-work rate, and (2) time rate, hour, day, or week. Under No. 1 the unit price is so low as to necessitate the workman toiling an abnormal number .of,hours; under No. 2, although the rate is by time, the basis is a piece rate. If a man works 14 hours one day, and makes or finishes so many articles, and receives 6s., the master calculates profit and . loss on the basis of a piece rate. If the amount of money is . larger than would be earned on a piece rate, wages are lowered or hours are extended. In other words, sweating may be stated to be those conditions of em- ployment where a middleman can tax the labour of others, and where the profits of the middleman, after allowing for his personal services according to the market price, and the rent of his workshop, may be called surplus price withheld from his workmen. I am a skilled workman engaged as a " clicker," or boot- upper cutter, a branch of the boot and shoe industry. I was apprenticed to my trade in i884, in an old- established firm in the East-end of London. After my apprenticeship I devoted three evenings a week for three years trying to gain further knowledge of my trade in a technical school. Since then I have worked in about nine or ten different factories, some of them the best equipped in the Kingdom, and some the worst, • I am considered a capable craftsman, and I .jh,"ve never been discharged for bad or scamped work. Although, clicking is my specialised branch of the trade, I am also a shoe pattern cutter and designer,, and' have a practical knowledge of most of the other "branches of the trade. I mention this because it is i absolutely necessary for a man to have that knowledge ^before he can speak with any authority upon the de- velopment of the trade or the economic aspect of alien immigration. In the East-end of London, including Bethnal Green, Shoreditch, and Hackney, nearly every variety of ladies' boots and shoes are manufactured. The best qualities will compare favourably with any- made in any other part of the United Kingdom, the worst cannot be equalled for inferiority. The best are made by natives, with a sprinkling of long-resident aliens, and the worst by aliens only. The manufacture .of men's boots is a vanishing quantity. 12206. (Chairman.) What does that meajir--" the manufacture of men's boots is a vanishing quantity" ; -dp you mean in the East-end only, or in the whole -country?—In the East-end. I say it was never carried „on to any very large extent in the East-end. Slipper- making, properly so-called, is a trade which is largely • disappearing from the East-end, but it has taken up -its abode in Leeds and Manchester, and other pro- vincial centres. A large proportion of slippers now Upon the market are machine-sewn slippers made in well-appointed provincial factories; some of the best felt varieties are imported. # A " sewround " is an eveming-dress shoe, made inside-out, and stitched by hand ; it is commonly known as a "pump," that is. it has a single sole ; it is unsuitable for outdoor walk- ing, and its use is confined to the ballroom. All sewrounds in the East-end are made under sweating conditions : the best by natives, with a sprinkling of aliens, and all the worst by aliens only. 12207. (Major Evans - Gordon.) In this statement which you are making, by " natives " you mean native Jews as well as Englishmen?—Yes. A dress-shoe is a. sewround, but a shipper is not always a sewrouna. The difference between a dress-shoe and an outdoor walking-shoe is fundamental, a different system, of manufacture being involved. Not a single new process of manufacture has been introduced by the alien; he has developed some varieties in the direction of in- ferior qualities, and he has perpetuated and increased this production by aggravating an environment most suitable. I have been asked what effect has alien im- migration had upon our industry. It is a question difficult to answer unless all the historic facts are taken into consideration and studied. It has been stated by witnesses that the alien has revolutionised the methods of producing boots and shoes. The revo- lutions in the boot and shoe industry have been caused by the invention and multiplicity of labour-'Saving machines, and if the alien has revolutionised our in- dustry, it remains for the advocates who suggest that the alien has revolutionised the shoe industry to point out the machines the alien has introduced and in- vented. In 1860 an Englishman named Blake invented a machine to stitch the soles to uppers. Previously all boots and shoes were either sewn or riveted by hand. The results of that invention were most far-reaching; it revolutionised the manufacture of boots and shoes, not only in England, but throughout the world. The machine, although very far from perfect then, was a triumph of mechanical skill; its invention was the dawn of a new system of manufacturing boots and shoes. Clicking was done by hand, in much the same way as it is done now. It is the only branch of the trade which has never changed; machinery cannot do the work, as too much, technical skill is required. Hardly any aliens at all work at clicking, although I have met one or two here and there. The introduction of the Blake machine into our factories split the making of a boot into three main divisions: (1) lasting (2) sole-sewing, and (3) finishing. Later there was the invention of heel-building and attaching machines, but that further sub-divided branch 1, and was not revolutionary in so far as it did not alter or modify "the system. The outcome of this system was the de- velops ent of workshops as defined in the Act, Section 149, 1 Edward VII., Chapter 22. Manufacturers sup- plied themselves with Blake machines, and had" their lasting and finishing done outdoors, that is, done by out-workers. When and how aliens first entered the irade it is hard for me to say, but it is certain that they did not initiate the outdoor workshop system, as that is a natural sequence of the old home-work system which prevailed in the hand sewn days. The difference between the two systems was this : The old hand se wn worker laboured alone in his own home, and very rarely employed outside labour, although he some- times had apprentices. On the other hand, the out- worker, whether he was laster or finisher, was com- pelled to employ others, besides it being to his advan- tage to do so. He obtained as much unskilled labour and apprentices as he could, and 'he soon trained them into profit-producing machines. On the whole, the system was not advantageous to the better class of manufacturers. Some of the work was not good enough, so they began to employ lasters and finishers direct, who worked upon the manufacturers' own pre- mises, and were trained to perform a higher quality of skill. The best artisans in the outdoor workshops, finding better conditions prevailing in the factories proper, betook themselves there, and remained. Th^ master of the outdoor workshop, although in mosv cases a skilled workman, found it more to his advan- tage to stick to his workshop. The problem as it presented itself to him was how to obtain an abundant supply of cheap unskilled labour. The unskilled native labourer did not apply to any very great extent, as the wages were not a sufficient incentive. Women and boys were rarely employed, because their hours were restricted by law. The large influx of aliens into this country during the eighties gave the master his opportunity, and he exploited these immigrants for all he was worth. One of the conditions, of em- ployment in these workshops was that the labourer should pay to the master so much per week out of his wa^es for standing-room and gas. 12208 (Chairman.) Is the master there the middle- man?—Yes. 12209. He is an out-worker?—Yes. In 1884 the,menMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 413 fttri^ck.against;..,uie, charge,; and. gained the day, but. only lor a time. Last year I found the system still in, yogue,. at a f actory in ^pitalfieids, the owner of which recently went bankrupt. He was an alien, and •nipioy eo,. nearly,, alj. aliens. The capacity 01 itus factory,, including indoor and outdoor workers, was the high figure of 800 pairs of boots per day. I call the figure* high because very little machinery was used. The productions were only of about lour low qualities out of three varieties oi materials, and the system was a quarter of a century old. The 1884 strike settled a very small detail of the sweating system, but it still went on unabated and with increased vigour. Men who had been trained in outdoor workshops started workshopsof their own; the open ports sup- plied a' sufficient: and an ever-increasing amount of unskilled labour, intelligent, virile, and strong. With ;$h,e multiplication of outdoor ^ workshops competition 'increased,' resulting in a fall in prices. The masters ;iut each"; other up , with an unscrupulousness worthy of wild beasts. With the fall in prices there came a fall in wages, and a still further fall caused by the inultiplied pressure upon the workshops of newly- arrived aliens seeking employment. They (the aliens) would sacrifice anything to learn a trade or a part hi one. They sold their lives, and do now, at the rate of 16 hours a day for a crust of black bread and a Jpiece of garlic and a corner filled with filthy straw to "l ie up oil. It should be mentioned here that the first effect of alien immigration upon wages is a re- duction of the wages of the aliens already here. As A new arrival he hardly ever competes with the native direct, but he undermines him indirectly. I will deal with the general question of wages later on. In 'the outdoor workshops no agreed system of wages was paid ; the master paid what he liked, and the men were bound to accept; they could not do otherwise, even if they knew 'how, as there were plenty of aliens out- ;feide. The men who worked in the factories were better paid, thiey'Were natives, and their hours were .more uni- form ; they rarely worked more than 52 hours per week. At the same time there was no universal 'statement of Wag$s/;':':M&kt oif the factory workers were members of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives, and the activities of the Union were confined to a preven- tion of wage reductions in individual factories. In the six years between 1884 and 1890 things got from bad to worse ; workshops went on multiplying, more and more unskilled aliens were employed, with the result that the standard of efficiency began to sink lower and lower. The Union found itself hampered at every turn In its endeavour to improve conditions and raise wages. The workshops and the aliens stood in the way every time. /It was next to impossible to organise the alien, first, because he did not understand what you were driving at, and secondly, because the outdoor work shop was a city of refuge for the men who were not suffi- ciently skilled- to work in the factories proper. In the year 1890 a strike of London boot and shoe operatives took place. The object of the strike was to destroy the sweating system by compelling employers to supply in- door workshops. The operatives gained? their end, and for a time sweating in London partially ceased. I might mention that a large proportion of aliens also struck, and were loyal to their English shopmates. The out- come of the 1890 settlement was the formation of a Board of Conciliation and Arbitration, composed of manu- facturers and men. Indoor workshops being supplied, it was now the business of this Board to draw up a schedule or statement of piece-work wages based upon qualities. It must be remembered that boots and shoes are made in hundreds of qualities, according to the materials, or grade of materials, or combination of varieties. The price was fixed for every specific quality and its varia- tion and " classed." Three statements of wages were drawn up, and known as the first, second, and third class statements. All three were based upon quality. Th^s ' settlement . applied to manufacturers and qualities then existing; it also applied to all manufacturers who subsequently joined the federation, and all new quali- ties and combinations produced by federated em- ployers. Since then hew manufacturers and new qualities liave sprung up. The new qualifies were developments of the inferior ones embodied in the third class statement, snd the new manufacturers were recruits from the ranks of the displaced workshop masters. They supplied themselves with a,few machines and began to manu- facture, and im five years they reproduced the conditions wiiicli o^taiuied previous to 1890. All these maniiiW- turefrs ^nd their workpeople were aliens); they were very successful1; others joined, and they succeeded in both defying the federation and the union. To Gomp«l jfr> & V. them to supply indoor workshops could not be done ; AmstelL in their case the agreement could not be enforced. The -- union certainly put their factories en bloc, but they Feb. 1903. could take no action against the federated employers, because these others did not belong to the federation. They succeeded all along the line, and the surrounding circumstances became more and more favourable to their increase and perpetuation. During the same period (1890-1900) there was going on an economic change in the English methods of distribution, which contributed ,to the non-federated manufacturers' success. Large manufacturers, both London and provincial, began to develop a system of multiple shop owning. In every important town in the country they opened retail shop*, undercut the private trader and very nearly extin- guished him. The manufacturers, besides their own productions, which they sold in their own retail shops, wanted others to sell at a cutting price to help them in the struggle against the small trader. They entered the market in a double capacity, as producers and buyers. In every producing centre they opened huge warehouses, and travellers called upon them with their samples. The manuf acturers who supplied these multiple shop-owners with the better qualities did their business on the ordi- nary credit system, but those who supplied the lower qualities were mostly aliens, and could not afford to do business on credit, as the first condition of their exist- ence was ready money, or payment oil delivery. That was, and is, the condition of the alien manufacturer ; he can only exist by selling for cash. The larger the order he secures the cheaper he can sell, and so the tendency has been to keep on increasing the output, ais profits will only show on bulk. Just as there has been a move- ment to extinguish the small retailer, so there has been another to preserve him. During the same period there has been a growth of boot and shoe factors who buy, but do not manufacture. Several of these have sprung up in London during the last ten years.. These factors pur- chase in the same way as the multiple shop-owners ; they pay cash for all the low grades which the aliens supply. The competition between the aliens is so great that prices are getting lower and lower, and the buyers know- ing this tempt them with larger orders, so as to bring prices still lower. Some of the factors go* further than the multiple shop-owners ; knowing the alien manufac- turer's want of capital, which prevents him producing very largely, they will supply him with leather, invoice it, and deduct the amount from his bill when he pre- sents his manufactured goods. In the same way, a machine-sewn manufacturer will supply a sew-round manufacturer with leather and deduct its price from the finished goods when delivered, or a sew-round manu- facturer will supply the machine-sewn man with leather it depends upon who has the largest amount of capital. The result of all this has been the placing upon the market of an inferior boot of a low wearing capacity at a very cheap price. I now come to the production of a different kind of shoe, which one witness, Mr. Evans, has wrongly called a " slipper." Another mistake he made, a mistake probably due to want of information and lack of power to discriminate between differences' of operations was, when he described " slipper making," or, as I should call it, sewround making, as un- skilled work, needing only capacity and energy to do it." Also that " a slipper worker can comfortably earn 30s. per week; . . . when he is regularly at work, and practically he is regularly at work." A sewround maker is never regularly at work, although there are individual exceptions ; that he does not average 30s, per week all the year round, but something nearer 20s., and the sewr round season only lasts from July to December. Not only in the East End of London, but all over London, sewrounds are made by out-workers. The largest pro- portion of them is made in the East End by aliens, the lower qualities in the East End and the higher in the West. Just as alien immigration has affected develop- ment of the outworking system in the machine-sewn trade, so it has ini the same way influenced the sew- round. A large number of shoe manufacturers produce sewrounds, as it is easy to do so, and the production does not necessitate any very great addition to their plant. All they have to do is to give orders to their clickers to work up certain qualities of their leather in sewround uppers ; these are machined in the ordinary way, and given out to a master, who employs men under sweat- ing conditions. There are a large number of sewrpund manufacturers who are that and nothing more ; they do not employ sewround makers on their own premises ; the only people employed on the premises ar» chs414 itOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : - Mr. S. V. 'Amstell. cutters. In a great many, if not in most instances, the machine-sewn manufacturer is the sewround man s largest customer. It is quite easy tor the. machine-sewn Feb. 1903. manufacturers' traveller to carry a few extra samples in the shape of sewrounds, and, in the same way, the sew round man's traveller will carry machine-sewn sampler As already mentioned, nearly all the sewrounds pr<» duced by the aliens are of a low quality, and they are cheap because they are low. You can buy a certain class of ladies' dress shoe wholesale for lid. per pair, and 1 have seen them retailed in .London shops1 foi- ls. Id. The master outworker receives 3d. per pair for making them, and his man receives what he is fortunate enough to get. This is the commonest class of shoe manufactured in the East End. Recently, I worked in a well-equipped factory in North-Eaist London, where they produced a few of the better quality of sewrounds. Tney paid their outworkers 7d. per pair for making their commonest shoes. This firm works under the third class minimum London statement, and they were not compelled to pay a minimum price for sewrounds, as they are not provided for in the statement. They paid 7d. for their commonest shoe, because their standard of efficiency was higher. The same shoe in the East End would be classed as a best. Of recent years drapers have entered the shoe-selling field, and they purchase any amount of these cheap dress shoes. An useless shoe, if it is but decorated with a piece of tinsel and sold for a shilling and a few farthings, seems to have a tremen- dous attraction for women on the hunt for " bargains." It has been said that the aliens have introduced new methods of production in the boot and shoe industries. Those who say so do not know anything about the his- tory of the industry. It is also asserted that the methods in vogue among the aliens are far in advance of those which exist in Leicester and Northampton ; this is also wrong—the methods of the alien are twenty years old. Most of the factories in Northampton and Leicester are well equipped with the most expensive and ingenious machinery in the world. The alien does not use these machines*—'first, because he does not know how to> and, secondly, because there is a plentiful sup- ply of alien labour cheaper than machines. What effect has the alien had upon the wages of the native shoe- maker ? This is a most difficult question to answer, be- cause very rarely does the alien worker come into direct conflict with the native worker ; his influence is always indirect. The alien floods the market with cheap and inferior shoes ; the native, on the other hand, produces a better class of boot altogether. It resolves itself into a competition between two* sets of prices and qualities. As the alien succeeds in gaining the market for his pro- ductions, so it narrows the area for the Englishman, The more direct effect of alien competition has been that the native hais been compelled to do more work for the same wages in native factories, which, relatively speak- ing, amounts to a reduction. Itn numbers of instances the English manufacturer has been beaten out of the field, and the native has been compelled to work for the alien at a very much decreased wage. Most of the native firms are still con- trolled by Trade Union conditions, but the number of firms are not being added to, only alien firms seem to be on the increase, and, with the increase, sweating. Look- ing at the question of wages more broadly, and from the point of view of averages, it will be seen that' there has been a reduction in the wages of natives. Owing to increased competition, work is becoming more and more intermittent in native factories, and the bugbear of the London operative's life is insecurity of employment, The markets become overstocked with inferior goods,they beat the better ones to the wall and overwhelm them, and for a time their productions mustl)e stopped. Want of money on the part, of a large percentage of retailers, and the difficulty of obtaining long credits, compel them to purchase the cheaper and inferior articles. The result of all this is, that on an average the' London operative is idle for two or three months in the year, so that an average of his wages for the whole year shows a reduc- tion. It has; been seen that the alien's production is one cf inferior quality. What the alien manufacturer has succeeded in doing has been to develop a quality lower than existed before he came here. It must be remem- bered that there are scores of varieties of leathers used in the manufacture of boots and shoes. The greaw majority of these leathers are extremely difficult to manipulate, requiring special skill and great adaptation on the part of the worker. Each one of these varieties oan be divided up into qualities; it is an axiom anions skilled clickers that no two skins, although belonging to the same species, are alike. What the alien has done then is this : he has picked out four of the easiest mate- rials to manipulate—i.e. (1) mac kid ; (2) satin hid#; (3) glace Persian, and (4) a low quality or French split kid. The bulk of his productions are out of the first three. No. 2 is a large hide, and allows economical and cheap working, and facilitates speed; No. 3 is a poor substitute for glace kid, and thousands of pairs of this material are made in the East End. There are hardly any moc kid or Persian boots made in Leicester or Northampton, and very few are made in the best, second, or third-class London factories. At one time a great, many were made in the third-class shops—in tact, they had a monopoly of them, but they have been bpnteii com- pletely out of the market by the alien. But the moc kid and Persian boot of the alien is not equal in quality to the one that was produced Ky the native. The aliens* production is not all leather ; the uppers and soles are but of an inferior quality ; the heels are composed of either paper or " composition," with a very thin leather top-piece; the in-soles, one of the most important parts of a pair of boots, are made of cardboard, backed with canvas and the " stiffeners," instead of being leather, with a cardboard backing, are made from cardboard with a canvas backing. The leather which composes the upper is of such an inferior quality that it requires stiff canvas on the inside to " hold it up," otherwise it would not present a firm and smooth appearance. All their productions are " faked " in this way. I have examined some thousands of pairs of these boots and shoes, and I have never vet found a pair composed entirely of leather. The Legislature could very well deal with a question of this kind by bringing cheap and inferior boots and shoes under the Adulteration Acts. If a man sells " mar- garine" for butter, or adulterates his treacle, the law fines and punishes him, and rightly so; but if a trader sells cardboard and composition boots as leather boots? the law takes no notice. The poorest of the population are swindled ; the boots, besides being useless, are posi- tively harmful to health, and I firmly believe that such things as influenza are brought in by their being worn. To repeat my .statement, what the alien has succeeded in doing has been to develop not a cheap, but an inferior article, requiring inferior skill in its production. To reduce it all to . a single statement, the alien has succeeded in producing and overwhelming the market with an article of inferior quality, requiring inferior skill in its production, and, in so far as that is so, and it has been successful, it stands as a menace to native skill and efficiency. As long as there is an army of unskilled, an army ever increasing, whose battalions, never grow less, who are always recruited from the four quarters of Europe, an army prompted by hunger and persecution, ever pressing on the skilled and outnumber- ing them, you will have in the long run a degradation of the skilled, and the triumph of things which " look just as well." This to me is the most important question— that the industrial triumph of the alien is the substitu- tion of a false standard of quality and efficiency for a good and a higher one. Progress is not possible under a condition of things of this description; originality and design are crippled; there is no outlet for talent- where production, to be economical, must follow a course of continued repetition. We may talk as much as we like about technical education for the British working classes,, and goodness knows they need it, but all the technical education in the world will do no good if through com- petition the workers are compelled to adopt a lower standard of efficiency. Again, this competition of qualities has another aspect; broadly looked at, it is a competition between wants, between standards of sub- sistence. It is a struggle between rye and wheat en bread, between common and cheap things and good ones. Since 1760 the English workers have maintained the wheaten bread standard, and they have rarely since re- verted to the rye standard. They have maintained this standard in the face of famine and extreme poverty. In 1809, during the famine and the French wars, the English Government tried to introduce rice as a staple article of diet for the English working classes. The Government's experiment failed, otherwise the social history of the nineteenth century would have been different reading. All industrial struggles are struggles to maintain a standard of wants, and to improve that standard. Alien immigration, it seems to me, has to be looked at in that light. I have been trying to dis- cover a sanction for restriction, and I am bound to confess I could not find it in any of the arguments put forth by those in favour of it. Excessive competi- tion 77--MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 415 12210. {Chairman.) What is tiie meaning of " all industrial struggles are struggles to maintain a stan- dard of wages " ?—A standard of wages. 12211. (Major Evans-Goraon.) Do you include that in a general standard ?—A standard of wages which would enable the workers to purchase certain necessities which they consider to be standard wants. 12212. (Chairman.) You mean a living wage, which is sufficient ?—I hardly know how to use that term " living wage," because there are so many different meanings given to it. (Chairman.) A standard wage must be substituted for it? 12213. (Major Evans-Gordon.) By " standard wants," you mean the standard of living generally P—Yes. 12214. A better claiss of food, a better class of clothes, and a better class of house?—Yes. I have been trying to discover a sanction for restriction, and I am bound to confess I could not find it in any of the arguments put forth by those in favour of it. Excessive competi- tion as a sanction for restriction is not sufficient, as that is sure to occur in the long run1—'competition being the central idea in modern industrial life. Overcrowding and the displacement of natives in housing accommoda- tion is also put forward by those in favour of restriction, but that is also bound to occur in the long run by the pressure of population upon industrial centres. Over- Crowding is not a new question, nor is it confined to the East-end of London. It is very common in rural dis- tricts, where I have frequently come across it. In a laig© measure it is due to bad land ltaws and vested interests, which cripple the activities of our municipal authorities, and render re-housing a most expensive and ruinous undertaking. They certainly do perpetuate insanitary conditions, but a rigid enforcement of the law would soon dispel a little of their ignorance and Innocence of cleanliness. 12215. When you say " they " you mean the alien ?— Yes. Regarding criminals!, some aliens I know are just a>s unaware of the " rights of property" as a large number of natives, but I believe, for I have no. figures, the .number of alien criminals to be small in proportion to their numbers compared to the British. I do not think they are more immortal or moral than the great majority of natives among whom they dwell. If the lowest of the natives- are compared with the lowest of aliens the redeeming points will be in favour of the alien. I hiave never yet seen alien, men and women sunk so low as some of the inhabitants of Spitalfields' lodging houses. At present we are faced by two prob- lems aggravated by alien immigration :—(1) Housing ; (2) Sweating. Nothing, it seems to me, will solve the housing problem except land reform, but it might be pajliated if No. 2 were solved. Sweating, I tried to point out, was due to the outworkers' workshop system. The only way to abolish sweating is not by interferino with the aliens working hours, as that cannot be done without interfering with the hours of all adult male workers in the country ; nor would an universal eight- hour day help much, as the sweater would employ a larger number of aliens and pay them still lower wages. The only way to abolish sweating is to compel, by law, all manufacturers to> supply indoor workshops with accommodation for their men. An Act containing this principle could be passed by the Legislature and the manufacturers given one year to> supply the accommo- dation. Some of the manufacturers would probably find it difficult to supply or find the extra space ; if so, they could move out into the country and so help to relieve the congested districts. This would apply to all the industries where the sweater is an important factor and it would -help forward the decentralisation which ondon is siadly in need of. Another scheme I have thought of might also be carried out with good results out it is not so drastic in principle as the compulsion to supply mdoor workshops. To abolish the present system of outdoor- workshops and for the. London Countv Council or Borough Councils to erect blocks of building to be used solely as workshops. The blocks could be divided in.;- sections, each section built to accommodate a, limited number of workers, and no more. If neces- sary powtsr could be supplied to the blocks, the authori- ties making an inclusive charge ; key charges and all such premiums to be abolished and tu be an offence g y against the law. A scheme such as this would have Amstell. good results, as the rents for houses which are used - as dwellings and workshops would come down, besides 19 Feb. 190S» treeing ai tremendous1 larea now used for workshops, --- and which could then be used for the erection of dwel- lings. The blocks of workshops, being concentrated in given districts, it would render iinspection both for sanitary and factory inspector easier. Another impor- tant benefit that would result from a system of this kind would be that it would allow numbers of working men to combine, rent one of the workshops., and work co-operatively. By legislation then a great many of the social and economic evils consequent upon alien immi- gration could be overcome. I said I could not find any sanction for restriction in any of the arguments put forward by those in favour of it. But, aiter all, this fact remains, that the presisure of a huge, unskilled army of men upon the skilled labour market will lead to, and succeed in, degrading the efficiency of labour. The unskilled may be natives or aliens, that does not matter or affect the statement; the result is bound to be the same. Is it advisable then to increase the ranks of our own unskilled by additions from other countries ? Their success, as. I have tried to point out, perpetuates a false standard of comfort and .a falser standard of capacity. If modern commercialism is a struggle for the world's markets, then success will be with that nation whose workers are the best skilled, whose stan- dard of living is the highest, whose capacity for mental and moral development is not cramped by an eternal struggle with poverty and hunger. The alien worker, with all his hard and laborious toil, is poor and poverty stricken. It is said that he make# no demand upon the English Poor Rate, and, therefore, is not a pauper. This is quite true, for the Jewish community support the aliens of their faith. But I am afraid that a great deal of this charity and relief perpetuate low wages and poverty. I fear these grants act in the same way, with the same bad results, as the grants to the wages*~of the agricultural labourers common during the latter part of the 18th century and during a part of the 19th. If, after examination, it is thought that restriction is desir- able, the condition of free immigration should be that the alien be master of a trade or craft. The machinery for such a thing is the most serious obstacle. How is on e to know that a man who wishes to enter the country is a skilled workman or master of a craft? One way is for the immigrant to have a certificate from his consul, or his trade union or guild, if there is one in the country of his origin. The danger of restrictive measures is that more harm than good may result, that, any legislative action that the British Government may take will be a playing into the hands of foreign re- actionary governments. I well remember a case which came under my own observation a few years ago at the time of the so-called Spanish anarchist outrages. Some Spaniards in Barcelona were suspected of being anarchists and were lodged in the fortress of Montjuich for twelve months. They received their freedom soon after and were expelled from Spain. Some of them came to London to live, and, if possible, work. One day I received a letter from an Englishman, a well- educated business man and a scholar, asking me if I could find work for two of these so-called anarchists, as they were shoemakers. I interviewed them with diffi- culty as I oould not speak much Spanish and found that, apparently, they were skilled men. We succeeded m getting them employment, for which they received good pay, as they were two. of the best hand-sewn shoe- makers I had ever seen in my life. These men, instead of being anarchists, were very mild Liberals and Pro- testants, and the Spanish authorities branded them as anarchists because they took an active part in Protestant propaganda in Catholic Spain. This is one of the dangers of restrictive measures; Continental Govern- ments have a habit of branding political opponents with criminal titles. ^ Legislate to keep out som e of this vast horde of unskilled, but let the legislation be broad enough as not to be guilty of injustice, or not to be in opposition to those principles of religious and political liberty which are still adhered to by some of the best men m England. On the other hand, we must avoid that e?r<7i -i? century individualism which talked too much of liberty" without understanding it ; and, on the other, that narrow and selfish spirit which finds its expression in "protection."416 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : THIRTIETH DAY. Monday, 23rd February 1903 members present i The Bight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, esq., m.p. William Yallance, esq. Mr. Solomon Van Amstell ; recalled. 12216. (.Major Evans Gordon.) As a skilled work- Mr. S. V. man you regard this question of alien immigration Amstell. purely from the economic point of view ?—That is so. 23 Feb. 1903. 12217. I should like to crystallise your evidence a — — * little more. You would say that the two main charac- teristics of sweating are long hours and low wages ? —Yes. 12218. And that those two characteristics are found largely in workshops in which the aliens are mainly employed, and are not confined to home work alone ?— Not confined to home work alone, but the two character- istics of long hours and low wages are confined to the home workshops and also to the factories. 12219. Both the workshops and the factories'?— Yes. 12220. And the home work ?—Yes, but the third condition, of course, is absent in the factories, because the middleman is absent. 12221. But you would find it largely, at all events, in workshops in which aliens are employed ?—Yes, it is universally so. There are no exceptions at all. 12222. According to your standard of sweating?— According to my standard of sweating. 12223. And these conditions are found whether the method of remuneration is piece work or time rate ?— Exactly. 12224. You speak of the best qualities and the worst qualities of ladies' boots and shoes being made in the East End. Will you describe a little more fully how the best qualities are made, in what way and under what conditions ?—The best qualities are made in factories where all the processes are carried out in that factory, where you would see a row of machines, and the operatives take the boot from one machine to the other, and complete the operation either in one room or in several rooms. In these factories I refer to, they perform in one factory one operation, and then a series of operations are done outside of these factories, in the out-workers' room. It is brought back to the factory and just trimmed up and finished, ready to be supplied to the customer. 12225. That is all done on the premises ?—Yes, the beginning and the finishing, what is known as the trimming. 12226. That is in the best class of goods '?—No, that is in the worst. In the best class of goods every- thing is done in the factory proper. 12227. The difference is that for a part of the time in the worst class the boot leaves the factory ?—Yes, and is done under conditions which we term—I say "we" because this definition of sweating is accepted by the official of the National Union of" Boot and Shoe Operatives—sweating conditions. 12228. (Chairman.) Is not this a broad question between the operatives and the federated masters as to finding workshops in which all the work shall be done ?—Yes. 12229. It has been a question which has been mooted ^or year?., and I have arbitrated on it once ?—In 1890 the question was settled so far as London is concerned,, but it is not universally accepted all over the country. 12230. It was the London shoemakers and em- ployers who had the arbitration on the subject ?— \es, in 1890. This document is the result of that con- ference. These are the three classes. This was the result of the conference of 1890 and the strike. Of course, in 1895 there was another strike, or a lock-out rather, but these statements were still accepted. 12231. (Major Evans Gordon.) The strike of 1890 did not do away with the home work, did it ?—It did for a time. 12.232. You have described in your evidence how that gradually came back ?—Yes, and in 1895 it existed with added force. With reference to this I have official authority to read through our report with reference to the increase of alien methods of production in our trade. 12233. It was the alien methods of production which led to the breakdown of the arrangement of 1890 ?—Yes. If I might, I should like to read this. This was written last September, " Trade is very dull here in the best workshops,"-- 12234. Where is that. Is that in London ?—That is in London. " Much of the common work is being done at home by the aliens under the old sweating system. This is becoming as prevalent as ever in the alien quarter, and not much notice seems to be taken by the sanitary and factory authorities in the matter. Thus is the em- ployer, who is prepared to recognise the London state- ment and factory workshops and sanitary conditions, heavily handicapped by the unscrupulous employers and the aliens of the East End, who seem to be encouraged to work under wretched and filthy conditions whilst the British workman can starve. The only hope for many of them is to get into some other trade where the foreign element cannot so easily indulge in the sweating of their fellow workmen." Of course this was official. 12235. When was that ?—Last September. I might also say in this connection that another union of boot and shoe operatives, called the Amalgamated Society of Boot and Shoe Makers, who make under the old English system of hand-sewn work, have complained of the same thing, and they say in this report, which I have in my hand, which is too long to quote, in the West End of London it exists in exactly the same way as it exists in the'East End of London. 12236. We have been told by Mr. Evans that the aliens have introduced new methods into the shoe trade. Do you agree with that ?—rCertainly not. Most emphatically not. The new methods, as I tried to point out, are due to the invention of machines. 12237. And not due to aliens at all ?—No. 12238. We have also been told by Mr. Evans, in the leather trades, it is particularly evident that the employ- ment of foreigners carries with it the necessity of em- ploying natives. Would you agree with that ?—Not in the lower branches.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 417 12239, (Chairman.) What occurs in the upper grades? —In the upper grades all the operations are carried out by skilled natives who have been trained to work certain machines. These men have either been ap- prenticed to their trades, or they have been so long at it that they have become thoroughly acquainted with the workings of these machines. The aliens are utterly Incapable of, working these machines, first because they have been untrained, and secondly because they are unskilled labourers. Also with the quality and the kind of boot produced by the alien, it is impossible td use a machine on that work. A machine could hot do the work. 12240. With reference to that particular point, do you or do you not agree that in the leather trade the employment of foreigners carries with it the ne- cessity of employing natives ?—There are certainly some parts, but I have never yet found many at work, and I have been in a great many of them. ,12241. Not many branches?—No, I will specify one branch. There is a branch of the boot and shoe trade known as "rough stuff cutting," and it requires a great expenditure of physical energy. Here and there you will find a native at work working these machines which are worked by treadle. The man treadles from morning to night. 12242.. That would be a case in which a native would be employed ?—Yes. Another thing is that a native would also be employed in sewing soles, but I would like to say that in the majority of the factories sole sewing is done by a man outside the factory. A native will own a machine, because they are rather expensive, and he will take out work at so much per pair from the alien factory. 12243. Mr. Evans also told us," I do not agree that there has been any fall in wages in the leather trades in East London at all." Do you agree to that?—No, I do not. There certainly has been a fall. Of course, if I were dealing with these wage statements I could point it out more definitely. 12244. Mr. Evans further said, " I daresay most of these aliens who come over here, from enquiries I have made, are already equipped for slipper making ; they understand the leather trades. They have been em- ployed in such trades in their own country before they came here, but the slipper trade is really part and parcel of the shoemaking trade." Has that been your experience ?—Of course, if by the slipper trade I am to take it he means the sew round trade, as a matter of fact there are no aliens, or very few of them, who are acquainted at all with this sew-round trade. It is an English trade. This Society is about 150 years old. 12245. It is practically an English trade ?—It is an English trade. 12246. They would not come here equipped for that ? —Hardly, I should think. 12247. I gather you would not object to the immi- gration of aliens who are skilled workmen ?—No. 12248. It is the unskilled people you object to?— Exactly. 12249. You desire the limitation of the unskilled workmen on the ground of efficiency ?—Exactly. 12250. We were told by Mr. Evans that sweating had largely decreased in the East End shoe trade. That may depend upon the definition of sweating, but, taking your two main characteristics of sweating as long hours and low wages, would you say sweating had largely decreased during the last seven or eight years ?—No, it has increased. 12251. Mr. Evans also asserted that machinery would shortly abolish sweating altogether. Do ^ou think machinery, given present conditions, is likely to do away with long hours and low wages ?—No, because, in the class of goods produced by the aliens, alien labour is much cheaper than machinery. 12252. So they displace the machines instead of the machines displacing them ?—Yes, and at the same time keep down the standard of quality. ]L2,253. Now, I believe you are a Jew yourself ?— Yes, my father was an alien. 6144. 12254. You are going to give us some more infor- Mr. S: V. mation, speaking for a large body of men, on Mon- A matdl, day?—Yes, I have to take my instructions on Friday ^ F 17^1903 evening at the committee meeting. l.L__ " 12255. Would you say, with the arrival of the con- tinued stream of alien labour, that long hours and low wages are likely to disappear ?—No, as long as you have the supply increasing you will not have any improvement in the state of things. 12256. (Chairman.) What do you mean by that, higher prices ?—Yes, and also along with the higher prices an improvement in the commodity of efficiency. 12257> (Major Evans Gordon.) In the quality of the stuff produced ?—Yes. 12258. Mr. Evans also expressed the opinion that alien immigration has led to no displacement of native labour ?—My opinion is that it has displaced native labour. For instance, I would point out that here is * quality Number 18, known as mock-kid, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. This was at one time manufactured only by those factories that came under this wage statement. The aliens have taken No. 3 quality of a certain boot, and they have developed this No. 3 along a lower plane altogether and at a cheaper price. 12259. (Chairman.) The public get it ?—The conse quence of that is that that necessitates a larger turn out at a lower wage and alao longer hours, conditions which are not recognised by the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives, but at the same time, from the point of view of quality, the putting forward of a standard which the better class shops try to aim at— that is a standard of efficiency. The consequence is there has been a decrease in the wages of the native worker. 12260. (Major Evans Gordon.) Now please turn again to your own statement. You speak of the strike of 1890 and of the co-operation of the aliens. The object of that strike may be roughly described as being to raise the standard of living among the workers ?—Yes. 12261. That is the great object of Trades Unions ?— Yes. 12262. Will you tell me what effect the alien immi- grant has upon that object. Do the aliens now co- operate with the efforts of the Unions ?—No. What has happened is this: A great many of the aliens in these common shops I have been referring to have started an Union of their own with a different schedule of prices. 12263. A lower schedule ?—Yes, based upon their particular qualities. Of course the National Union, will not recognise either their Union or their wage statement, and when they struck a short time ago,, the National Union would not support them in any way. Even the wages they struck for were wages that wev the native workers, considered to be wholly insufficient. 12264. Can you give us any idea of those wages ?— Those wages averaged about 25s. a week, and that would necessitate working a greater number of hours than the native worker. 12265. How long ?—It would necessitate working something like 65 hours per week. In all the native factories of London the average number of hours is. 52. I am particularly referring to the alien factories. In the alien workshops a larger number of hours pre- vails, 12266. You are talking now of the factories ?— Yes. 12267. But outside the workshops the conditions would be much worse ?—Yes. 12268. The best would be the factory, the second would be the workshop, and the third would be the home work ?—I include, of course, homework and the work- shop under the same. 12269. What is the history of this alien Union; do you know anything about it ?—I do not know anything about it. I only know it where I have come in contact with it. I was once doing work for a firm where a great number of these aliens were employed. It was at the time of a strike. I refer here, you remember, to a shop where the man had to pay so much rent.418 ROYAL COMMISSION 1 &N ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mfc 8. V: 12-2^0. . for standing room ?—Yes, and gas. Amstell. And 'they? struck against this imposition. u 23 1903. 12271. It was rather hard ?—Yes. 12272., Do you find that many aliens become skilled workmen in the higher grades'?—Very few. ' 12273, Briefly, your general argument is this : that: the practically inexhaustible supply of unskilled labour in the-East End shoe trade is a serious menace to: efficiency, and enables shoes to be put on the market of an; inferior quality, produced under bad industrial conditions, and which seem cheap, but which are, really dear stt the price ?—Yes, that is one of my contentions. 12274: Now you speak as a skilled workman. Can. you say whether your views are shared by many of your own class They are shared, I should say, by the Majority of the 26,000 people who belong to the Union that I am a member of. 12275. Are those mixed races—Jew and Gentile ?— Yes. There are a great many native Jews, but very few aliens belong to this Union. There was an alien branch some years ago, but, unfortunately, most of the aliens who were members of that branch thought it would pay them better to become masters or workshop - sweaters, and they became so and left the Union. 12,276. Begarding this as an economical problem, your -remedy would be, if it can be done, to limit by some kind of test of efficiency the continuous supply of imskilled labour ?—That is it, and, at the same time, this view is endorsed by my official head, the Secretary of the Metropolitan Branch of the National Union. 12277. (Lord Rothschild.) I want to ask you a very few questions.- I suppose sewing machines have been very largely introduced into the boot trade, have they not?—Of course, since 1860 the Blake sole-sewkig machine has. 12278. The effect of the introduction of sewing machines has been to lower the rate you receive for ;sewing one pair of shoes ?—Yes. 12279. But, then, you make very many more ?— ¥es. But I should like to point out that it is a difference in operation entirely. 12280. Therefore, when you talk of the low price received'now for an individual shoe, you forget, you make very many more owing to the sewing machines ?-^ That is so. 12281. All the prices that you have given in your •evidence tend to show that the price you get for the individual shoe is much lower than it was before. The object of my question was to get you to confess that, owing to the sewing machines, you were enabled to sew many more ?—Yes, but may I point out that, although the Blake sole-sewing machine cheapened shoes, and the "cheapening of the shoes was due to the fact that you could turn out so many more in a given space of time, that that was a difference in system, yet here we are referring to the difference in price of a .shoe made under the same system. This cheapness is not due to a differentiation of shoe at all. 12282. You say that the foreigners introduce nothing. Is it not the fact that the sub-division of labour in all trades, or in. this particular trade, is a foreign intro- duction £—No, I deny that in the shoe trade. I em- phatically deny it.. 12283. It was a complaint made before the Sweating Commission, on which I sat, that, owing to the sub- division of labour by foreigners, the old English work- men, who used to do every branch of the trade, dis- appeared. It was brought forward by the shoemaking trade in particular ?—Yes, but at the same time, when that Sweating Commission was held a great many of the machines which are now used were not in vogue then, but the same system which is in vogue now was in vogue then. 12284. The complaint the shoemaking trade brought forward , then was that owing to the subdivision of labour, there was not what there used to be, a, perfect shoemaker, who did everything himself.?—Yes/ but this was not introduced by the alien. 122851 They said then that this was introduced by foreigners. Have you ever compared the prices of shoes made in London with those made at Manchester and in the. country by English firms only employing English workmen ?—Yes, we have our comparative statements. I will bring them up if you require them. 12286. They are lower in Manchester and the country districts?—Yes, they are a trifle lower. 12287. (Mr, Lyttelton,) You suggested some test of efficiency should be applied before an alien immigrant should be admitted into this country ?-r-Yes. 12288. Have you thought out any practical plan for imposing that test ?—Of course, it does seem a very great difficulty to me. I do not see how you can, unless, of course, the alien possesses a certificate from his Consul ox his trade union or guild, if there was one in the country of his origin. 12289. It must involve an examination into 4iis effi- ciency in his country of origin or here ?—Yes. 12290. I suppose you would agree that that would involve very great difficulties ?—I confess it would involve- a great difficulty for us here to discover at the ports whether he knows a trade or not, but surely we would not be responsible for the difficulty he would experience in his own country. That would be quite practicable, would it not—if you placed the onus of proof upon him. 12291. (The Chairman.) Do you belong to any Society yourself ?—Yes, to the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives. 12292 That represents London principally?—Tt represents the whole country ; our membership is about 28,000. 12293. That is the great Trades Union of the boot %nd shoe operatives ?—The great Union. 12294. Your object is to maintain high wages ?—Yes. 12295. And short hours, and also, in order to do that, you wish that there should be no diminution in high- priced goods ; that is, as sold to the public ?—Exactly... 12296. And you would not encourage the sale of low- priced goods ?—Exaptly. 12297. That is your object ?—Not low-priced as low- priced, but low-priced goods as inferior goods. 12298. Of course, they are inferior to the higher- priced goods. It is that that makes the low price ?—Yes. 12299. Are you considering the interest of the con sumer in that view at all I—Yes, I am. 12300. Why ? Take this case. A man is a poor man, and he cannot afford to pay for the high-priced goods. Do you wish to shut him out from getting the low-priced goods ?—No. 12301. If he cannot afford to pay for the high-priced goods, what goods should he get ?—He should get a cheaper class of boot that is equally as good to him, from a wearing point of view, as a high-priced one, because, as goods are now, two pairs of cheap boots do not last as long as one pair of good ones. 12302. You wish to see high-priced goods on the market, which means high wages and short hours ?— That is my object. 12303;,. I want to > know where the interest of the consumer comes in. If he can get low-priced goods by means of low; wages, why should not he get them ?— Because it is tb6 great a demand. " 12304. On the workman ?—Yes. 12305., You are considering hirn alone ?—Exactly. 12306. You are not considering the poor consumer ?— Yes. ■ •• ■ 12307. How, if he is only to have high-priced goods, is: he to pay for them ?—Because at the same time he gets^ a superior article. ■ 12308. Yes, but he has not got the money ?—If he has not got the money the tendency' will be for the wages to be raised, because the standard'of subsistence—— 12309. How does that affect the, cpnsumer who has to buy the goods ?—Because he will demand a higher rate of wage to meet the increased cost. 12310. The consumer gets no wages. It may be a widow woman, or a man in another 'trade ?—If he finds his wages are not sufficient to buy' him our produce then he must demand a higher wage. , • !MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 419 12311. A bricklayer4 is to ask for a higher wage because, you have insisted, against all free trade doc- trines, that, there shall be no cheap goods ; and you, the shoemaker, are to take a higher wage also. Is that your proposition,?—That is my proposition. 12312. Are you serious—that the bricklayer is to go to his employer and say, " I want a high wage because I cannot get cheap produce, and can only get dear produce, and the reason that I can only get dear produce is that unskilled labour is not to be employed " ?— Apart from the cheapness I suggest it is a question ef inferiority. 1231,3. Yes, but he has not got the money to pay for the high-priced goods. Why should you force him to have only a market in which he cannot buy ? —-In this instance it appears that if he purchased a cheap boot and that is the result, and a good result, of free trade, then surely it appears to me, anyway, that adulteration is not a'part of free trade. 12314. We are dealing with the "cheap article pro- duced by unskilled labour and with low wages—never mind adulteration. Why should not the public get the advantage of a low wage ?—! personally deny that the public get a benefit from an inferior article. . 12315. Take the consumer who has no money to pay for the high-priced article. Why should not he buy a low-priced one. You will not let him, and I can tell you the reason. You are considering only the interest of the workman who gets the wage and not the interest of the public who has to pay it ?—Yes, because the public, besides being consumers, are producers also. 12316. Supposing instead of this unskilled labour producing low-priced goods which a poor man can buy, they did not come over here but stopped in Belgium and sent them over, would you shut out the low-priced goods ?-—No, I would not. 12317. Why not, on- your doctrine?—Because I believe in the free exchange of commodities. 12318. Do not you see the evil that would exist to the British workman by means of the competition coming, from abroad ?—May I point this out—this is the argument I base my statement upon, that, first of all, there would be a natural protection for English com- modities. If they were produced in Belgium it is doubtful to me whether the Belgians1 could, produce ;them cheaper than theiy are produced here. . 12319. Supposing we shut the foreign alien out and he remained abroad and sent the goods produced there over here, would you shut them out ?—No. .. 12320. Then you would; allow them to come in ?— Yes, but I assert at the same time that it would be utterl/ impossible for them to be sold here at as low a rate as if made here. 12321. I am assuming they do come here by means of people working abroad, where provisions are cheaper, and, where people can live on a less wage. Would you feel it an injury that the poor consumer here should be able to buy those low-priced goods ?—No. , 12322. Would not the purchase of those low-priced goods shut out the sale of your high-priced goods ?— It might if it occurred, but I deny that it would. . 12323. I put , it hypothetically. What do you say ? —I say the hypothesis is wrong. 12324. I put a hypothesis, and: I ask you to give me the result. Would, you shut them out ?—If it would happen I would not shut them out, but I deny that it would happen. 1,2325. Please take it hypothetically. Would you shut those goods out or not ?—No. . 12326.. Would you let them in ?—Certainly. 12327. Then the consumers under those circumstances would obtain the benefit of low-priced goods and ex- cluding the purchase of the high-priced goods ?—I would let them in. :: 12328. That would be doing no wrong to anyone ?— the native standard is lowered. 12332. How does that show any difference between the goods being made in Belgium and being made in Stepney ?—Yes, but I do not believe in the hypothesis. 12333. I have put it to you hypothetically that these goods have been brought from Belgium, and I ask you whether you would shut them out and you say, '.' No," on principle ?—Yes: 12334. Never mind saying you deny the hypothesis. Why Should you allow that injury to the workman to exist by means of Belgian goods when you will not allow it to exist by virtue of the Stepney goods ?—-There are certain facts which go to show that the hypothesis would not occur. 12335. (Mr. Lyttelton.) If the hypothesis wTere true the same difficulty would arise, only you would not have the injurious sweating actually before the eyes of the .workman in England ?—No, what I meant is the goods would not come into England at as cheap a rate as they are made here. 12336. Take it that they did. The same result would occur with this difference, that the injurious result as, regards hours of working in England would not be apparent. You would not see it, side by side ?—■ I acknowledge- that, if you grant the hypothesis. 12337. Yott were going on to say that you do not .think the hypothesis true. What is your reason?— My reason is that the standard under which they would rbe produced op. the Continent is exactly the same as- the standard under which they are produced in England, and if you add. to that the increased cost of transit it seems to me it would be utterly impossible to sell the goods at as cheap a rate as they do in England. 12338. .(Chairman.) Your case for your Trades Union resolves itself into these words—it resolves itself into a-cOnipetitfon between two sets of prices and quali- ties, and; as the alien succeeds in gaining the "market, for the production, so it narrows the area for the English- man. You wish to shut out the lower-priced goods ?— Yes, and inferior qualities. 12339. Of course you do not get as good a quality for a low price as you get for a high one ?—No. 12340. You do not get as good; a horse for £20 as- you do for '£200. You wish the high-priced goods to hold the market as against the fow-priced ones ?— Exactly. 12341. You would take that objection whether the low-priced goods were produced by aliens or by natives?—Exactly. ~ 12342. You kre careless, I suppose,, about the in- terest of the man who wishes to' buy the low-priced goods ?—We say it would benefit him. 12343. You will not allow him tcj exercise his own judgment ?—We are not careless of him. 12344. What ;care do you take of him if you shut out the goods, so that he cannot buy them ?—We say it benefits him. .12345. It prevents him exercising his own judg- ement ?—No, because he will demand the same as we have,, namely, a higher standard. • 12346. But he has not got the money to pay. If you shut out the low priced goods, how is he to exercise his judgment between high and low ?—-He cannot, of course, if he has not the money, but we say he will demand a higher wage, the same as we have. 12347. You are going to get the ivalges for the brick- layer, the tailor, and the domestic servant, and every human being higher, in order that yoil may get the higher priced goods in the market ?r—We would raise ;the ^taijdlar.d all .round, / r . r ; , i ; ; : 3 Gr 2 Mr. A. .S. Armtell. ,23 Fob. 190$.420 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: >Mr. S. V. 12348. Raise tne standard of the human race in Amsteil. England Of all the workmen. ^ 12349. That is your object ?—That is the object of Trades Unions. 12350. Does that benefit the consumer 1—Yes, because he is also a producer. 12351. Yqu wish to raise the bricklayer and every- body in order to keep high priced goods up, and you think that benefits the consumer ?—Yes, because he is a producer. 12352. No, all consumers are,not producers. Who is to find the money for all the producers?-- 12353. (Lord Rothschild.) Supposing the bricklayers' wages go up, the rent of your houses would go up, and the cost of the houses ?—I do not know. I do not think so. 12354. (iChairman.) Your remedy is this, that the Legislature are to deal with this subject by bringing •cheap and inferior boots and shoes under the Adultera- tion Act ?—Yes. 12355. Then any cheap boot, even if purchased in consequence of cheap labour, you call an adulterated boot ?—Ne,- not if it is leather. 12356. That is not quite what you say, because you say "The Legislature could very well deal with a question of this kind by bringing cheap and inferior hoots and shoes under the Adulteration Acts." You do not intend that to apply to all cheap quality goods ?— No, but to inferior goods, that is, boots which contain cardboard, and compo., and other things. 12357. Then those words are not quite what you mean. Then your single statement is this: "To reduce it all to a single statement, the alien has suc- ceeded in producing, and overwhelming the market with an article of inferior quality, requiring inferior skill- in its production." That of course carries with it, if inferior quality, cheaper price ?—Yes. 12358. That you object to ?—I do not object to cheaper price. I object to inferior quality. 12359. You cannot get cheap price and superior -quality. They run together ?—Not always. 12360. Do you get inferior quality and high price?— Sometimes. 12361. Who gets that ?—Some people suffer over it. 12362. But who gets it ?—A great many people. 12363. In your trade ?—Yes. 12364. Trade Unionists ?—Yes. 12365. Now, these aliens come over as greeners?— Yes. 12366. Do they train and become skilled workmen .■afterwards ?—In a few cases they do. In the old days it was possible for them to, but now it is almost im- possible. 12367. They always continue what you would call unskilled labourers ?—Yes. 12368. What is the price they can get. How much can they earn ?—An unskilled labourer in the shoe -trade if he works about 16 hours a day (I am not exag- gerating) can earn about 5s. 12369. 5s. a day ?—Yes. 12370. That would be 30s. a week?—Yes. 12371. What can one of your skilled labourers earn ? —My skilled labourer would earn that in, say, 10 hours. He would earn 30s. a week in 10 hours a day, say a 52 hours week. 12372. That is about the normal hours of labour ?— Yes, but I should like to tell you in the better class of work, where he works under this first and second class statements, he can earn anything between 30s. and £2 10s. per week of 52 hours. 12373. (Lord Rothschild.) Are there many earning £2 10s. ?—In the busy times, but it is not general. 12374. (Chairman.) Is that piece work ?—Yes. 12375. Now you take politically a broad view of this question. You would not shut out the alien?— Not if he knew a trade. 12376. You think politically we ought not to refuse aliens admission to this country 1—Yes, I take that view. 12377. For fear of their being tyrannised over and oppressed in other countries, you think we ought to keep our doors open ?—Yes. 12378. Your only objection is that the man who is unskilled should not come here ?—Yes. 12379. Your objection to his coming here is that if he comes here an unskilled labourer, he will dispossess the skilled labourer of his position ?—Yes. 12380. That formulates your view ?—Yes. 12381. On that ground, and only on that ground, would you prevent his coming in, as he does come in, unskilled ?—I would prevent his coming in as an un- skilled man. 12382. Supposing he wants to come in as a dock labourer, would you keep him out ?—Yes. 12383. Why ?—Because we have a sufficient number of dock labourers. 12384. Then your objection, as I understand, was that you would not allow unskilled to compete with skilled labour. Now you have another objection, namely, that sufficiency of labour in any trade would justify preventing them coming in ?—Yes, but they do not compete with dock labourers. 12385. If a man comes and says "I want to work as a dock labourer," would you let him in ?—No, because he is unskilled. 12386. Jf ho Joes not dispossess the skilled labourer, still you would keep him out ?—There is nothing to show he would not dispossess him. 12387. Would you call a dock labourer unskilled ?— -Yes. 12388. Then suppose he comes in and works as a dock labourer. Whom does he dispossess in the shape of a skilled labourer ?—He dispossesses the unskilled labourer. 12389. That is not skilled labour ?—He may have an indirect effect on the skilled market. I do not know. Our experience does not show that he has gone into that rather laborious hard work of dock labouring. 12390. Take your own view. What are we to do ? A man comes on board a ship, and he says, "I have been employed in making waistcoats or shoes." How are you to judge whether he is skilled up to your standard to earn high wages ?—Only if he shows a certificate from his Consul or Trade Union, or some competent authority existing in his own country. 12391. A certificate of what ?—Of efficiency. 12392. Up to what standard ?—We cannot fix a standard. That is almost impossible. 12393. If we are to put into the Act of Parliament that he is not to be admitted until he can show a cer- tificate of efficiency, we must show a standard or defi- nition of some sort ?—Only that he has been working at his trade as a skilled workman. I cannot say that it is practicable to suggest anything more. 12394. I was just wondering whether we could do anything of that kind. You say unless he has been working at his trade he should not come here ?—He has to show evidence that he has been working at his trade. 12395. It reduces it to this, that you are protecting your skilled labourers' wages, and standing by that alone ?—Yes, and broadly speaking we are protecting the standard of subsistence. 12396. That is, your skilled labourers' wages ?— Yes. 12397. (Major Evans Gordon.) In comparing wages, when replying to Lord Rothschild, you have not com- pared shoe with shoe, but weekly wage with weekly wage ?—Yes. 12398. (Mr. Lyttelton.) May I interpose one question here ? Your point, as far as I understand it, is this : the conditions of work that you have described here of sweating, impose too heavy a cost for the cheap goods which is their result ?—Yes. 12399. The second point I understand you to make is that cheap goods often are no real benefit to th£ consumer ?—Exactly.1HNUTVS OF EVIDENCE. 421 12400, Your third point I understand to be, that < even if the consumer has to pay more, that, in your judgment, must be faced ?—Yes. 12401, In your view I understand that will probably ^rectify itself because wages will adjust themselves so as to enable the wage earner to obtain the bare necessaries * of life Yes. 12402, {Major Evans Gordon.) How long would .you say this great reduction of quality and fall in wages has been going on ?—Since 1890. 12406. Before that time the quality of goods was (better?—Much better. 12404. The consumer purchased this better class . /goods then, did he not ?—Yes. 12405. Now you say that the shoe that he buys is * not a shoe at all really ?—It is not. 12406. It is made of paper, and tinsel, and canvas, .* and other matters ?—Yes, as we say the shoe is made for the eye and not for the foot. 12407. You deny that as being a benefit to the con- sumer ?—We deny that. 12408. And you also say it is not a benefit to the consumer to have a shoddy article, of that kind produced under such bad conditions as it is produced ?—We say it is not a benefit either to the consumer or the pro- - ducer. 12409. Do not the bad industrial conditions under which the clieap goods are produced affect their cheap- r jiess ?—Most decidedly. 12410. Is it not due to bad sweating conditions, * overcrowding, and low standard of living that this --cheapness is rendered possible at all ?—Exactly. 12411. And that you do not consider a benefit?— I do not. 12412. Either to the consumer or to the nation, < or to the native worker, or anybody else ?—Exactly. 12413. You object to these cheap goods not because - they are cheap, but because they are bad ?—Because they are bad, and because they necessitate a lower form * of skill. 12414. Because they are not what they represent themselves to be. (iChairman.) Because they require a lesser amount » of skill ?—Yes. 12415. CMajor Evans Gordon.) And are only pro- ducible under conditions which are extremely bad . and deleterious not only to people who work in them but to the people who want them ?—Exactly. We are not interpreting this from a narrow trades union's point of view, but from the broader point of view. 12416. 0Chairman.) The consumer's ?—Yes. 12417. (Major Evans Gordon.) You would rather Mr. S. V. see these goods produced, say in Poland, in one of these AmsteM. places where the necessities of life are much lower, than ~r— - have these conditions of living brought over here ?— Yes. 12418. (Mr. Vallance.) Do you include slippers in the boot and shoe trade ?—Yes. 12419. Supposing a lady enters a shop for the purpose of purchasing a pair of slippers knowing, before she goes there, that the slippers are not made of leather in the soundest way, but they are sufficient for her purpose for tlvo or three times using, would you regard that as a shoe that should be kept out of the market ?— We do not say it should be kept out of the market, I only say it should be produced under conditions which are better for the workers. 12420. Could not the conditions of the production of that article be as good as the conditions under which a superior article is produced ?—Never. 12421. Are those conditions necessarily to be attached to this class of goods only ?—They are part of it. The conditions are a part of this cheapness. Apart from the conditions the cheapness would not exist at all. 12422. The consumer says, "That article of which I know the ingredients is the article which I require, and it is sufficient for. my purpose." Is that consumer to be excluded from the market for the purchase of that article ?—We say the consumer is demanding too much from the workman to work under the conditions necessary for the production of that boot. 12423. (Chairman.) You have it here in your statement that you can buy a certain class of ladies' dress shoes, wholesale, for lid. per pair, and you say you have seen them retailed in London shops for 13d. Would you object to the lady getting them for 13d. ?— Yes. 12424. Let us suppose the hypothesis which you will probably say is impossible, that she had only got 13d., you would not let her have any shoes at all-- (Major Evans Gordon.) When you say 30s. a week is obtainable for 16 hours work, would you say that 30s. a week would be obtainable throughout the year? —No, the men I refer to work only about six months. 12425. And then only get 30s. ?—Yes. 12426. If you take their annual wage would you say they are capable of earning at the rate of 30s. but not all the year round ?—That is so. 12427. That would bring them down to 15s. a week ? —Yes, the season for the shoe I am referring to only lasts from July to December. A few are made in the summer, but very few. Dr. George Newman, called in ; and Examined. 12428. (Major Evans Gordon.) You are a Doctor - of Medicine, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, and Holder of the Diploma of Public . Health, Cambridge ?—Yes. 12429. You are the Medical Officer for Health for he Metropolitan Borough of Finsbury ?—Yes. 12430. How long have you been in that position ?— < Since 1900, when the borough was created. It was * created in November, 1900. 12431. Had you previous experience in that part . of London ?—Yes, I had been nine months' before in the same district, and over four years before in a con- : stituent part of the new borough. 12432. (Chairman.) Under whom would you be . acting as Medical Officer ?—Under the Finsbury Borough Council since 1900. 12433. (Major Evans Gordon.) Will you give us the - figures of population in Finsbury ?—The census popula- tion for 1901 was 101,463. The population at the i Dresent moment is probably almost exactly 100,000. 12434. It has gone down ?—Yes, that is for 1903. 12435. What is the number of inhabited houses ?— Now it is 9,200. 12436. And the areas ?—The area of the whole borough is 589 acres. 12437. You know that here we are dealing with the question of foreigners. Can you give us the number of foreigners ^numerated ?—According to the Census Returns, the total number of foreigners in the Borough of Finsbury for 1901 is 2,467. 12438. Do you think those Census Returns of foreigners are substantially correct ?—Substantially correct for 1901. 12439. The principal part of them are Italians are they not ?—Yes, the principal part are Italians. I put in this table instead of the one that was formerly put in in my evidence, because it represents the case a little more correctly. Dr. G. Newman,422 ROYAL COMMISSION ON AfcfUN IMMIGRATION : Dr. G. Neivrhan. 1903. A Table to show the Alien Population in Finsbury at the Five Decennial Periods, 1861-1901. Decennial Periods. Number of Italians. Total Number of Aliens. Total Population of Borough of Finsbury. 1861 130 1,000 129,031 1871 250 1,200 124,722 1881 550 1,400 112,382 1891 500 1,500 110,907 1901 1,065 2,467 101,463 1903 1,400 3,200 100,000 A Table to show the Alien Population in Finsbury at the Five Decennial Periods, 1861-1901. ' It is estimated that there are about 750—1,000 Jews in Finsbury, and about 3,000 Jews employed in Fins- bury, but not resident there These figures have not been included in the above Table. ' the returns for 1903 include the children of aliens born in Finsbury. 12440. You give here a table to show the alien popu- lation of Finsbury for five decennial periods, from 1861 to 1901 %—Yes. In 1861 there were 130 Italians, and there were, approximately, 1,000 aliens in all. 12441. What was it in 1871 ?—There were 250 Italians and 1,200 aliens, and the population had begun to decline. 12442. The foreigners go up and the population goes' down %—Yes. 12443. Then 1881 %—550 Italians and 1,400 aliens* the total population still; declining. 12444. Then 1891 1—In 1891 there were 500 Italians and 1,500 aliens, and the total population still declining but not quite so rapidly. 12445. Then 1901 ?—1,065 Italians according to Census, and total number of aliens, according to Census, 2467, and population 101,463. I say "Census" there, because the difficulty has been to exactly calculate the number of aliens in what is now the Borough of finsbury on account of the fact that the census authori- ties calculated their census for a number of years from 1861 to 1891 on the Holborn Registration District, and not on municipal boundaries, so that the table with the exception of the figures for 1901 is a calculated table, based upon a number of different authorities as, well as upon Census returns and upon calculations. : ' 12446. (Chairman.) We must take it approximately ? —Just so. Then in 1903 there are 1,400 Italians, 3,200 aliens,, and a total population of 100,000. 12447. (Major Evans Gordon.) How do you get those figures ?—The Italians I have got by counting. 12448. Counting heads ?—Yes. 12449. That shows an increase of 400 Italians in two years ?—The return for 1903 includes the children of Miens; born in Finsbury, and I include those because the Italians are in Finsbury very frequently for only a handful of years, say five, or six, or seven, and then they return. They are not aliens who come here with a, view of stopping. v; 12450. (Chairman.) Would not your figures, as you fiave taken them, be rather more correct and definite than the Census Returns ?—I think so, especially with regafrd to the Italians. . ; • (Major Evans Gordon.) I have been making inquiries through the Italian Embassy and Consul-General with reference to the Census Beturns in London generally. They have complete lists of all Italians in the country, and of course including their children, and they find that there is a balance of over 50 per cent, more Italians actually in London than are shown in the Census. (Chairman.) That accounts very likely for the in- crease here to some extent. 12451. (Major Evans Gordon.) Here we have a peculiar feature of steady decline in populatibn, and steady increase in foreigners ?—That is so, making it- now 3 per cent. 12452. What are the others composed ofT For* instance, in 1903, there are 1,400 Italians and 200" aliens?—The next number is Germany; that is about 600 or 700; then France, then Austria, and then a number of others. 12453. (Lord Rothschild.) Germany after the-' Italians ?—Yes. That is according to the, Census - Return, and we agree. We have made a very careful examination of the Borough for the purpose of the Commission, and „we agree substantially. with these results. 12454. (Major Evans Gordon.) Then in a, note you say there are other people who come to work in, the district, but they are not residents there ?—That' is so. ^ 12455. Are those aliens or English ?—No, they are English-born substantially. 12456, You do not get the Russian and Polish element there 1—Yes, to a certain extent, but only very few. - 12457. .What we call the alien immigrant generally you get very few of ?—Yes, only to a small extent. 12458. Where do these people who come in reside ?—■- All over the Borough, with the exception or the Italians.... 12459. (Chairman.) Is Saffron Hill in Finsbury ?—■ Part of it is. The whole of Saffron Hill is in Holborn Registration District, but part is in Holborn, and part of what is known as " Saffron Hill" belongs to - Finsbury. The boundary comes down through it. 12460. (Major Evans Gordon.) For that reason it has been rather a bother collecting this evidence ?— That is so* 12461. What is the area of the Italian quarter 1— About seven acres—that part of the (Italian quarter which is inside the boundary of the Borough of Finsbury.. 12462. Will you give us the brief characteristics of this colony ?—Do you mean the boundaries I 12463. We,need not trouble about the boundaries. It is about seven acres %—Yes, it consists of a number of small streets and courts. Almost the entire area is open to criticisfn on account of a variety of insanitary conditions of very long standing. 12464. Would you broadly say the conditions are insanitary and bad ?—Yes, but decidedly improving. If the standard accepted about 10 or 15 or 20 years ago is to be accepted, the standard now is very much im- proved. That is owing to two chief reasons, I think,, first the structural improvements owing to the con- struction of Rosebery Avenue, and secondly to the much more strict sanitary supervision which we have been able to obtain by new -statutory powers. 12465. What new statutory powers are those?—The Public Health London Act of 1891. 12466. Is. that, what you work under chiefly ?—Yes. 12467. Not bye-laws %—We work under the bye-law%„ but they are, part of the Act. 12468. Do you, in prosecuting for overcrowding and insanitary conditions, and so forth, use the Act or the bye-laws chiefly We use the bye-laws now chiefly and find them very successful. 12469.. (Chairman.) The new bye-laws framed by your Municipal Council?—Yes,, and ratified by the -Local Government Board. 12470. (Major Evans Gordon.) Have you compared them with other bye-laws in other districts ?—Yes, they are substantially the same except the exemption clause. I have copies of the bye-laws if the Commission require ;them. . Only houses, shall be. exempt when the landlord is living on the premises and lodgings are let to only one lodger. . ' , ; 12471. (Chairman.): Exempt from;what From the bye-laws. 12472. (Major Evans Gordon.) You have not got power of entry there under the bye-laws ?—We have-MIN.UT® OF -EyiDENOE._ 423 gpower of entry wherever the houses are registered as houses let in lodgings. 12473. What houses do you register?—We should "take as a standard the lower class of tenement house. The whole Porough of Finsbury has undergone a consider- able change this last few years because of the invasion -of commercial premises. Very few of these houses, out of the 9,000 in the borough, were built as private house < ; they have degenerated and have become tenement .houses'pure and simple, and the worst class of those are the houses we place on the register. 12474. Only the worst class ?—Yes, as a rule. 12475. You have no rental standard ?—No, we use ' our own judgment with regard to the class, and we judge each house on its own merits except that if the Hand-lord is living on the premises and it is only let to one lodger^ then it is exempt. 12476. Now you were saying that the characteristics -of this alien colony showed various bad conditions and insanitary conditions. Is it worse than other parts of the neighbourhood ?—Yes, it is somewhat worse. 12477. Give us a general note on the foreign popula- tion living in Finsbury ?—In the Italian quarter ? 12478. Yes, and elsewhere ?—In the Italian quarter there are 120 dwelling houses altogether, and 85 of these are occupied in part or in whole by Italians, and, - in the main, it must be said that they keep the inside of the rooms fairly satisfactory, but the courts and the passages and the public entrances to the houses and so on are not kept in anything like the same standard. 12479. {Chairman.) Whose duty would it be to keep the public entrance ?—It generally devolves upon the tenant whose door opens on to that part of the public ^passage. 12480. And the front door ?—They take it in turns to look after it. • 12481. That is probably the reason it is not done ?— 1 That is probably one of the reasons why it is not done-. As to the manner of life generally of the Italians in . Finsbury, I should say they were of a migratory dis- position ; here to-day and gone to-morrow and back . again in the spring, and so on. The general sort of principle obtaining seems to be to come here in the Slimmer and go away in the winter, so that our estimate • of more than 1,400 Italians now in Finsbury is probably very much below the average for the whole year. In the spring a very large number of Italians will come " here, going back in the autumn. ; 12482. (Major Evans Gordon.) What do they occupy themselves with ?—A number of different occupations : ice creams in the summer. The people who carry on that trade in the summer carry on all sorts of miscel- laneous occupations in the winter. 12483. (Chairman.) Here ?—Here, but some of them return. They sell chestnuts and have barrel organs ; and potatoes and all that kind of thing. c. ,12484. (.Major Evans Gordon.) They are regular .. street vendors ?—Yes, I have a table of the occupations -of 700 Italians, mostly men. Perhaps 50 are women. Asphalters come at the top, then paviors and mosaic floor : makers, and then next come the ice cream people. 12485. With regard to the position of the ice cream industry- is that bad or insanitary ?—It has been very bad and under no control, but under the new General Powers Act of the Londpn County Council we have fresh powers, which undoubtedly will assist us very much in controlling this trade. There are altogether in Finsbury 9.4 registered premises for the manufacture of ice cream. 12486. They ha^e to be registered now ?—-Yes, we register them by the Borough Council, not by the London County Council. They are registered and •. supervised by the Borough Council, and 87 of those §4 are both makers and sellers, and of the 94, 46 or 47 are Italians. i 12487. Independently do you find any complaint by the English or native pppulation of these people there ?—No, I think the English population has come to look upon the Italian quarter as belonging to the Italians there, largely. - 12488. This Italian quarter has become an estab- lished thing ?—I think so. 12489. There is no displacement of our own people Dr. (3^. going on now ?—Not now. Of course there has been, JVewmdh. ^ and the Italians are spreading out very much, from jfeb~*1903 the Italian quarter all over the borough, as I have —!— f shown by the chart; which is rather a remarkable fact. I had thought, until I had made the chart, that the! Italians were located in the Italian quarter, which is that small area enclosed by the red fine. The yellow pins stand for the Italians. They have spread out from that area all over the borough. 12490. {Chairman.) Is the part within the red line Finsbury ?—Yes, the whole of Finsbury. The Italian portion is this small portion here. 12491. Is this Saffron Hill?—Partly so, but part comes into the Holborn Borough. The Italians are too numerous to pin into the Italian quarter, so they; are pinned in here (pointing to the chart). 12492. (Major Evans Gordon.) Is that small red line the Italian colony ?—Yes. 12493. But they have burst out of that?—Yes. 12494. (Chairman.) What do the yellow pins repre- sent ?—Individual Italians, except in the area where they represent the houses only. The Italian inhabi- tants are pinned further out here. 12495. (Major Evans Gordon.) These &re the tota^ Italians in the Italian quarter ?—Yes. 12496. These should be all in there (pointing to the chart) ?—Yes. 12497. So it is an Italian colony %—Yes. 12498. Are there any English people ?—Yes, there are about 620 English. 12499. Living alongside them in the Italian quarter ? —Yes. 12500. What are the rents ?—4s., 5s., 6s., and 7s. The rents vary.' 12501. For a house ?—No, for an occupancy. 12502. What do you call an occupancy ?—Why I hesitate is because the Italians have an understanding between themselves as to how they shall pay for rents. There is, perhaps, a man who brings over eight or 10 young men to run his ice cream trade, and he will pay a total rent for the whole lot for a year, and then he will keep his men practically on very, small wages, indeed, and they pay for rent in work. He keeps them two or three years, and then they go back to the part of Italy from which they came. Most of the Italians n the Italian quarter are Neapolitans, but outside they are mostly north Italians. That is the origin of the Italians now in Finsbury. , 12503. So one Italian sends for and gets others ?— He gets over 10 men for a season, who come and all live together in extremely overcrowded conditions for the summer, and then at the end of the season, according to the contract, they either return or stay for two years. 12504. You get, consequently greatly overcrowded conditions ?—Immense overcrowding in the season. The overcrowding now is not so very much. 12505. The man who fetches them over packs them into one house?—Yes, seven or eight in a room which ought to have one or two. 12506. Where do your sanitary byelaws come in there ?■—We have begun to make them operate with regard to those very conditions. I have a number of returns here showing the relationship of the over- crowding amongst the Italians to the English. For example, here are three series of night inspections. We found the day inspections were no good at all, because the people did not tell us what was correct, so we have macfe night inspections in all parts of the borough in 1902. 12507. (Chairman.) You have power under the Act to enter at any time ?—Under the bye-laws. ( ; 12508. That gives you statutory power ?—This Was for houses that are registered. We might meet with some serious difficulty in making night inspection in ordinary houses. / 12509. If not factories or workshops ?—Yes. • 12510. These are not ?—These are not. These ^re424 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. purely residential houses, but they are registered, and if they are registered I am entitled to go in any time, " day or night. I can put this very shortly. Taking * four series of night inspections ; the first series of night inspections was made and it yielded a percentage of tenements overcrowded of 73. We examined alto- gether nine houses, including 64 tenements and 272 people. That was all English, in a quarter of Finsbury, namely, Bastwick Street, which is practically inhabited only by English. 73*4 per cent, of the tenements we examined were overcrowded, according to the standard of the bye-laws. On the second night inspec- tion we examined 25 houses, with a population of 471, and we found 59 per cent, of the tenements overcrowded. They had fallen from 73 to 59, in my judgment owing tp the preliminary notice which we had served upon the owners as the result of our first discovery. 12511. (Chairman.) Were they the same houses ?— Practically the same houses. 12512. (Major Evans Gordon.) You served the owner ?—Yes, our difficulty was that, instead of being able to proceed at once and penalise this owner for farming out his houses in such a monstrous state of overcrowding as 73 per cent., we were unable, under the bye-laws to proceed unless the owner overcrowded "knowingly." So we have to inform him that he is overcrowding before we punish him. It says, "The landlord of a lodging house, or lodger therein, shall not knowingly "-- 12513. (Chairman.) Of course the landlord may be a mortgagee in the country, or something of that kind, so you have to give him notice ?—Yes. 12514. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It is not a necessary pre- liminary. You can find a man guilty of knowing without giving him notice ?—We have taken cases to the courts, and the magistrates there have laid emphasis on the term " knowingly." 12515. (Chairman.) All Mr. Lyttelton says is that it may not be by actual notice ?—Quite so, but this man happens to live in Whitechapel. 12516. If you give him notice you remove all doubt ? —Yes. In the second night inspection the overcrowding fell from 73 to 59, and a third one six months later fell to 43. 12517. What do you attribute that to ?—To the fact that we proceeded against the man and got a conviction, and he was fined £15 18s. That was on the second inspection, so then we made a third inspection, and found there was 43 per cent, of overcrowding, so in the 12 months the overcrowding had fallen in that particular street, owing to our action, from 73 to 43. On the third occasiou he was fined again £10 8s. 12518. (Major Evans Gordon.) Who is the man ?— He is the owner of the house, and he lives in White- chapel. 12519. A house farmer ?—Yes. 12520. An Englishman ?—I am not quite sure. He has an alien name. 12521. What was his name ?—Gehringer. Those are three overcrowdings in an English street practically. Now the fourth overcrowding investigation which we made at night was in the Italian quarter. We there examined 36 occupancies between the hours of 12 o'clock at night and two o'clock in the morning. 12522. (Chairman.) By occupancy you mean tene- ment^—Yes; we found 58 per cent, of overcrowding at a time which was favourable to the Italians. 12523. (Major Evans Gordon.) You mean when they were not there ?—In the winter, or rather very early spring. We intend to follow the matter up carefully, and probably in the summer, we shall find that the overcrowding has much increased. 12524. What did you do in that case?—We took the same action and reduced the overcrowding at once with a preliminary notice. 12525. Who was the owner ?—It was various owner- ship in that case. In the other three cases this man Gehringer was the owner. 12526. Do you consider the rents in Finsbury, generally speaking, in the poorer quarters, are abnor- mally high or are they rising ?—They have risen a little, I should think. I do not know that they are abnormally ~ high. 12527. (Chairman.) In the original first inspection^ the overcrowding was 73 per cent?—Yes. 12528. Were those English residents or foreign- residents ?—Nearly all English. 12529. And with regard to the 58 per cent ?—All Italians. 12530. (Mr. Lyttelton.) So they compare well?— Yes, that is a fair comparison. 12531. (Major Evans Gordon.) At a favourable time- of the year ?—At a favourable time of the year to the^ Italians. 12532. (Chairman.) It might come up to the 73 - perhaps in the summer?—Yes. Of course Bastwick - Street was an extremely bad case. Here is another case of the Borough generally where the overcrowding ~ is 22 per cent. 12533. The Italians'is a bad case in one sense because they are all together ?—Yes, we are comparing two * bad cases. 12534. (Major Evans Gordon.) Now, there a is- spread of the Italians. Is that due to your action in this area ?—No, because our action has only recently begun, during the last 12 months, and the spread has - been going on during the last eight or ten years. 12535. Does not the increased scattering about imply displacement of native population ?—Yes, to a cer- tain extent; it implies that Italians came to their quarter, „ and found there was no accommodation for, them, but there is also a certain amount of feeling with regard to it... The Italian quarter is mainly, as I have said, composed. of Italians from Naples and South Italy, and there is a. sort of caste and family feeling with regard to it. So> Italians coming from Naples to-morrow would probably squeeze into the Italian quarter, whereas Italians coming ~ from other parts would not have the same attraction. Then, of course, there is the trade which has an effect. There are the ice cream and the barrel organs and the - plaster modellers' and the asphalters' trades. The asphalters and the modellers are outside. 12536. Do you know anything about their character ? Are they troublesome people ?—I should think in the - Italian quarter they have been extremely troublesome in-, the past, but they are coming to understand the meaning- of English law, and especially of the sanitary law. After they have been here a few years they are extremely amenable to treatment. 12537. And to sanitary and other laws ?—Yes, and do not give the same difficulty at all that English people- do. 12538. (Lord Rothschild.) In this statement you say there are a certain number of Jews living in Finsbury.. Do you know what trades they follow ?—Mostly in the large factories that are concerned in the making of elothing. 12539. Not cabinet making?—Some of them are engaged in cabinet making. I was thinking at the moment of Jewesses. A large number of Jewesses are- employed in Finsbury, and an exceptional number, I should think, in comparison with the population, and they are working in the main in large factories making clothing. There are, of course, also a large number in , the furniture trade. 12540. Are they English Jews ?—English born? nearly all. 12541. They get good wages?—Yes. 12542. (Mr. Vallance.) The question of alien immi- gration has not created in the Borough of Finsbury any special problem?—No, with the exception of the fact that you have a pretty rapid increase of people up to* 3,000, alongside a rapid decline in general population* and therefore shortness of house accommodation, so that you are adding to Finsbury, which is short of accommo- dation already, and with a dense and overcrowded: population, 3,000 people jaore. 12543. Do these Italians to any appreciable extent: bring with them any handicrafts ?—Yes, they have * popularised ice cream work as street vendors un- questionably—they have increased the trade enor- mously. They are very successful. They are not poor;-MINCJTES OF EVIDENCE. 425 and suffering. Secondly, there are the plaster model- lers* Thirdly, there are the asphalters and the mosaic Hoor workers. All these three trades are almost ex- clusively in the hands of Italians in Finsbury. 12544. So far as the Italian immigrants are concerned they bring with them labour which is required in the Metropolis ?—Yes, I think so in the main. Of course, there are some wasters with them—men who do nothing. That is very much so with regard to others in the Borough; for example, Cler ken well was a district of a great deal of watchmaking, and Germans and Swiss and other nationalities have undoubtedly helped the watchmaking and jewellery trade. I should say, as a whole, comparatively few of the 3,000 aliens now in. Finsbury are really unsatisfactory people. In the main they have contributed to the life of the Borough, and the trade processes of the Borough, and I have very little criticism to make of them. 12545. (Lord Rothschild.) The Germans and Swiss are in the watchmaking trade ?—Yes, and watch tool making. 12546. (Mr. Vallance.) The overcrowding that has been occasioned has not been to such a serious extent that you have been unable to cope with it by your sanitary laws ?—I think we shall be able in time to cope with it. I feel that very strongly as regards Finsbury. I am not speaking for other parts of London. The housing question and the general standard of public health is to be met through a pretty steady enforcement of the Acts which wTe now possess. 12547. (Mr. Lyttelton.) I was just going to ask you that. There has been in other parts an indisposition to enforce the Sanitary Acts, because of turning the people out into the streets and considerations of compassion. You have not been met with any such difficulty?— There is, of course, that sentiment in the public mind which obstructs us a little, but I think if it is steadily and reasonably enforced it works, and our bye-laws work admirably. 12548. You have, of course, considered your plans •of campaign since the Borough Council came in and since the matter was thoroughly considered and got to the bottom of, and you have acted ?—Yes. 12549. And you have acted as ordinary persons would act to enforce the law ?—I think so. 12550. Without leniency at all, but in your discre" tion ?—As equitably as possible. 12551. You have felt no difficulty in doing so as Tegards public opinion ?—No. In the course of years at will put the matter right: 10 or 15 years. 12552. (Chairman.) Have you got the figures-of the decrease in the inhabited tenements in Finsbury, and the decrease in the population %—The overcrowding per tenement has decreased from one census to the next. 12553. Do you think the number of houses habited have decreased or not ?—Unquestionably. 12554. What has been the cause of that ?—The growth of commercial premises. In this lower part of the Borough it is becoming more like the City every year. 12555. The population has decreased too ?—Yes. 12556. That means the sleeping population within the Borough ?—Yes. 12557. Is that decrease of the population in conse- quence of the houses having decreased and as it is opened out by the commercial growth, or has it pro- ceeded from other causes 1—No, I should say mainly from the invasion of commercial premises and the price Br. ascertain no direct emigration of destitute aliens from Roumanian ports to the United Kingdom has taken place during the past year, although some hundreds have left for Rotterdam, Antwerp, etc., of which a considerable number may have found their way to England." Then there is another communication from Galatz, dated January 23rd, 1903: "My Lord,. Referring to my No. 1, Commercial, of this day's date, I have received from a reliable source some information concerning the number of Jewish emigrants from Roumania during the past three years, which may possibly be of interest to His Majesty's Government. During the three years, 1900, 1901, and 1902, it is estimated that 31,615 men, women, and children of Jewish nationality have emigrated from Roumania,. assisted by funds provided by various Jewish emigration societies, in addition to others (number unknown) who have left at their own expense. The emigrants are mostly of the artisan class and petty shopkeepers* These figures comprise :— In 1900 to New York - In 1901 to New Yock - In 1902 (up to end of October) to New York In 1902 (estimated October to December) to New York - - - - • - From 1900 to 1902 to Philadelphia - From 1900 to 1902 to Canada - From 1900 to 1902 to Argentina - From 1900 to 1902 to Ottoman Empire of Egypt ------ From 1900 to 1902 to London and Paris 8,654 4,921 - 7,040 1,500 2,000- 2,500 500 1,500 3,000 Total 31,615 " These figures include women and children, but I am unable to give their relative numbers." So that of these 31,000, 24,000 have gone to America—Ne^MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 429 York and Philadelphia—2,500 to Canada, and 3,000 to London and Paris. That is from 1900 to 1902 from Boumania. 0Major Evans Gordon.) In two years. {Chairman.) 1900 to the end of 1902—three years. (Major Evans Gordon.) It would be interesting to compare those figures with our Board of Trade figures. (Chairman.) The importance of the letter is that 3,000 from Boumania, where it is stated there is great oppression going on, have come to London and Paris out of 31,000. (Major Evans Gordon.) That bears out very much what I myself found from my inquiries out there. (Chairman.) There is another communication from Austria, dated November 10th, 1902. Mr. Plunkett forwards to the Secretary of State a certain document, a notice from the Ministry of the Interior published in the unofficial portion of the " Wiener Zeitung "— " Emigration to England. From reliable information received by the Imperial and Boyal Ministry of the interior, there exists in England at the present moment Mr. W. A. an excessive supply of labour, brought about by the Coote* termination of the South African War, and the conse- w"T~ionq quent liberation of thousands of men from the ranks. 3 At the same time the condition of trade and commerce is by no means such as to afford sufficient work for the numerous new competitors. On the contrary, in some branches of industry, as in shipbuilding and steel manufactories, there has been a decided diminution in the demand for labour. Foreign workmen suffer special disadvantages, as many employers give preference to their own countrymen who have returned from the war in South Africa. Under these circumstances, with the exception of certain isolated cases, there is little or no prospect for Austrian workmen to find occupation in England. Destitution and hunger is their regular lot as soon as the small savings they have brought with them are exhausted. The Ministry of the Interior on this account instructed their subor- dinates on the 6th inst. to seriously warn all persons against going to England for the purpose of finding labour until further notice." The Bev. E. Canney, called in ; and Examined. 12654. (Chairman.) What incumbency do you hold ? ' —I am rector of St. Peter's, Saffron Hill, and have been since 1875. 12655. That is in Holborn ?—Yes. 12656. What is the alien population that comes under your observation ?—It is very small at present, so far as my actual parish is concerned, but it has been considerable. 20 years ago it was about 15 per cent. 12657. Over what area was it 10 per cent. ?—A very limited area. My Parish is the Liberty of Saffron Hill, Hatton Garden, and Ely Bents. The Italians are supposed to be all congregated in that area, but that is an entire mistake. The Saffron Hill area for the purposes of the Italians is really all round, we may say, and to a large extent they were just outside the Parish, and in the neighbouring Parish of Holy Trinity, another St. Andrew's District Parish. 12658. Are they more or less than they were ?— Much less. Our population is going down so because there has been so much demolition, and warehouses have been built in place of houses. We lost 2,000 when Clerkenwell Boad was made. 12659. Has the number of aliens diminished pro- portionately to the general population %—Yes, there are very few aliens now. 12660. You have not suffered from the recent alien immigration 1—No. 12661. (Major Evans Gordon.) Have they moved from your parish to neighbouring parishes ?—Yes, just outside to the Eyre Street Hill colony. 12662. So that your special parish is not affected now —Not very much. It is beginning to be rather more so. I have found only recently a block of buildings in Clerkenwell Boad where every time there is a vacant tenement, the Italians apply, and although the rents have been raised they can pay the rents, and they are taking up these habitations that our own people would be only too glad to occupy. 12663. (Chairman.) Your aliens are Italians 1— Yes. .12664. What trade principally 1—They are all trades. There are a few skilled men who do mosaic work, picture frame and looking glass making, plaster work for ceilings, inlaid wood work, barometer and other scien- tific instrument making, but for the most part they are sellers in the streets, and people who go about with organs. 12665. Let me ask the view you take of this. First of all, with regard to the criminal class, are there many persons belonging to that class among them ?—I should say a very small percentage. In all my experience pf 25 years the percentage of criminals has been very small indeed, but there is a percentage. 12666. As far as you can judge would it be in excess of the native percentage or not ?—No. 12667. Beally and truly you have no observation to The Bev. E. make on that point ?—Some of the young Italians are Canney. very immoral. I had occasion some years ago to call the attention of the Vigilance Society to what was going on. Some young Italians who seem to have a good deal of money, and who are attractive and nice looking fellows, get hold of our English girls, and what came to my knowledge was that they got hold of these girls and took them into a low public-house, and got them down into the cellar there, and made them dance naked. I got the*Vigilance Society to see to that, and it was suppressed. The thing was looked after. 12668. So far as you know, does that exist now ?— I am afraid from what I hear that something of the kind1 does go on from time to time, and if this kind of man is . not very well looked after we should have a good deal. of it. 12669. Do not these Italian organ grinders some- times get hold of women to go about with them, and sometimes marry them ?—Yes, they do. They get women who dress up as Italian women. 12670. Now as to pauperism, what have you to say ? —Very little indeed. I have been a Poor Law Guardian, for 20 years in the Holborn Union, and the pauperism has been next to nothing among the Italians. There is a little more just now. 12671. As to competition with our workmen, I suppose with regard to organ grinders and ice cream men there is no competition.?—No, there is no com- petition. Our people do not go in for that kind of thing. There is a little competition with regard to hot potato selling. Formerly Irishmen used to sell these hot potatoes about the streets, but the Italians have gone in for it very much, and the padrones go to Italy and get lads to come over here and they put them at that in winter time. 12672. That is a small matter ?—Yes. 12673. Is there any trade in which there is com- petition ?—No, I should say not. 12674. Can you at all differentiate between the skilled and the unskilled labourer among the Italians ?—Yes, I think so. The Italians do mosaic work and inlaid work. I would call that skilled labour. I do not know what you say about the asphalting, but they do that and they seem to be preferred to* any other people. 12675. As far as you know they work at fair wages in those trades and there is no sweating ?—No, certainly, there is no sweating at all. 12676. Do they intermarry with our English women to some extent %—They have done so in the past. You know, perhaps, that Mazzini identified himself very much with the Italians in that neighbourhood. He had a school for adults, and that school existed even up to the time of my going into the neighbourhood in 1875. He must have started it about 1844, but I supprse such was the influence that he had that there were130 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : the Rev. E. followers of his who carried it on up to that time, and Canney. there is no doubt that he has had a very great influence. 2$ Feb. 1903. 12677. In what direction ?—The Italians who did no^ -— eare very much for the Roman Church went to his school, and that class married our English women, but the strict Eoman of course would not. Many of my choir boys have had Italian fathers and English mothers, and I have traced the influence to this school of Mazzini. 12678. With respect to health, are they a healthy strong race1?—Very healthy indeed ; it is marvellous, and they are very clean too. 12679. And intelligent ?—Very intelligent. 12680. Is there anything you can assist the Conr mission in with respect to your general views of these immigrants that you would like to put before us ?—I certainly think that we ought to take some steps to keep the undesirables from coming here. That is all. As to Italians, I should say of the Italians what I have said in my paper, namely, that they have the smallest class of the undesirables. The Italians least call for any action, but still I do feel that some action is required. 12681. You are speaking generally with regard to the undesirable aliens, and you do not put the Italians prominently in that class ?—Certainly not; far from it. • ^ 12682. (Mr. Norman.) You said there were few \i - skilled workmmen among them ?—Yes, I should not say there were very many in the Saffron Hill colony at the present time. 12683. But in this note of your evidence that we have you say, 44 Considerable numbers are skilled work- men." Which of those two statements would be the more accurate ?—I am speaking of the Saffron Hill Colony, and the Italians amongst that colony. I do not think there are many skilled now, but there were, and if you take the Italians in England generally there is a very considerable number. 12684. But that is the colony you have most personal knowledge of ?—Yes. I made a mistake if I said con- siderable numbers are skilled in that particular locality, ^because I do not think it is the case. 12685. You said, I think, that they were for the most part sellers in the streets, and people who go about with organs ?—Yes. 12686. Under those circumstances I see in the note of your evidence you say they possess genius and give ideas to our workpeople. What ideas would our work- people get from people of that class ?—Not of that class, rfeut of the skilled class. 12687. You said there were very few people of the •killed class?—I say there are few now in the Saffron ' Hill Colony I am talking rather of the outsiders when I make the statement that there are considerable num- bers, than of the particular people who live about the Saffron Hill district, and then I am talking a little of the past. In the past the Italians have brought very great skill into this country. Most of our barometer makers and scientific instrument people bear Italian names, and they were Italian workmen originally. I could mention a dozen names of people now who are well known in the scientific instrument trade whose forefathers began, no doubt, as immigrants and mere workmen. ^ 12688. What do you say about their genius and their giving ideas to our workpeople. You refer rather to the past than to the present ?—Yes. 12689. And probably still less by that same proceas to the future ?—Yes. 12690. You said that the padrones go to Italy to fetch lads over here ?—Yes. 12691. I suppose they do not fetch them solely for potato selling, do they ?—Oh, no. They sell potatoes in the winter time. It just occurred to me that this potato business had sprung up and that they had tried to capture it. 12692. I quite understood what you meant. My point is that this would point rather to a sort of what one may almost call an organisation for the bringing over of these pauper Italian lads, would it not ?—It is individual. Whether the individual padrones combine at all, I cannot say. 12693. Would there be a number of these individuals doing it as a sort of more or less regular business ?—I should say so. 12694. It would have the effect of an organisation ?— It would have the effect of an organisation. 12695. Have the Italians introduced, so far as you know, any special class of crime such as is indigenous to Italy. We have heard from other witnesses of the use of the knife, for instance ?—I have known many instances of brawls amongst them, and they always used a knife in fact. If there is a row they out with the knife. 12696. {Chairman.) Do they use it upon each other ? —They use it upon each other, and occasionally upon our people, but very very rarely. Our people get on very well with them. 12697. In former days was not there a large trade done by these Italians in plaster of Paris images ?—Yes. 12698. Has that trade died out ?—Not completely, but I should say it is nothing like the trade it used to be. 12699. (Major Evans Gordon.) You see it more in the provinces than in London ?—You can always get the images in the neighbourhood of Saffron Hill if you want them. THIRTY-FIRST DAT. Thursday, 26th February 1903. members present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. W. R. McConnell, k.c., called in; and Examined. Mr. W. B. McConnell, k.c. 26 Feb. 1903. 12700. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yon are the Chairman of the County of London Sessions?—Yes, both sides of the river—-the County of London. 12701. I understand that a note has been kept for 12 months of the cases in which foreigners have been in- dicted at thes^ Sessions ?—That is so. 12702. These figures, however, cannot be taken as anything but a rough estimate P—That is so, for a reason that appeans on the note I have already sent in, namely, that we find that a great many of these foreigners change their names and adopt English names. I have had a case before me in May last in which three men, ail Russians or Poles, formerly known as Kirman, Myers, and Levy, then respectively appeared on a second ciharge as Wilson, Williams* and 'Smith. I hadMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 431 one before me at the Sessions which, ended last week in which a woman had appeared in the name of Lewis, and ultimately turned out to be a [Russian Pole with a corresponding name. 12703. These people who come before you, you find, mostly live in the East End?—The Yiddish-speaking portion live mostly in the East End, but there are colonies in my jurisdiction of Germans, principally about Whitfield Street, Percy Street, Tottenham Court Road; French in Soho, and Italians in the Saffron Hill and Clerkenwell districts. 12704. I think some time ago you said in Court that there was evidence to show that hundreds of foreign criminals were landing in the country, organising them- selves into gangs and committing depredations all oyer London ?-~I said there was evidence before me that there were gangs, principally of a burglarious nature, consisting of foreigners, which seemed to be of recent combination. I cannot exactly say, but up to a year or two years ago I had very scanty evidence before me of any such combinations. 12705. And since then?—Since then I have found a number of them extending their operations over London —St. John's Wood, and suburban districts even more remote. 12706. Organised- colonies of foreign crime ?—Appa- rently so. 12707. Now as to the proportion of foreigners to the total number of persons charged ?—I have made a note of that. I think there passed through the hands of myself and the second Court about 2,200 or 2,300 per- sons committed for trial in the year (I think last year it was on both sides some 2,500), which is about one- fifth part of the indictable offences tried in England. The number of foreigners in 1902 was : Russians and Poles (Yiddish^speaking), 107 ; Germans, 59 (approxi- mately) ; Italians, 31 ; French, 29 ; miscellaneous, 23 ; total, 249. 12708. (Chairman.) Nearly 10 per cent. ?—Yes. 12709. In fact, it is rather more than 10 per cent. '/— It is about 10 per cent. 12710. (Major Evans-Gordon.) At the September ad- journed Sessions there were 65 persons charged ?—If I may say so, I have had figures made up which are more accurate than that. In 1892 the proportion was 7 per cent; in 1900, 11 per cent. ; and in 1902, 13 per cent. 12711. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Does that refer to prisoners indicted or prisoners convicted?!—Tried. 12712. It.does not refer to convictions?—I think it is only the persons tried. That refers to the north side »f the Thames. On the south side of the Thames the proportion is very much less. 12713. {Chairman.) Your memorandum is of persons dealt with at the Sessions?—Yes. 12714. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Showing a steady in- crease of foreign people charged ?—An increase cer- tainly, and a gradual increase. Last week we had on the Calendar 103 persons, and out of those' 26 turned out to be aliens. 12715. {Chairman.) Is that north or south?—North." I am confining my evidence entirely to the north, be- cause there are no colonies and no influx perceptible on the south side of my jurisdiction. 12716. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is that referred to here in your statement ?—I think so. I made a note of it. 12717. At the October Sessions there were 69 persons charged, including 15 foreigners, or 22 per cent. ?—Yes. 12718. Approximately there were 1,896 prisoners dealt with at the North London Sessions in 1902, including 249 foreigners, being a proportion of about 13 per cent. ? —Yes. 12719. {Chairman.) I thought you said there were 2,200 ?—I was including in that both sides of the Thames. The figure as to the north side is accurate as given by Major Gordon. 12720. And that raises the percentage, of course?— Yes. 12721. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Then, to separate those, at the Sessions held at Newington for cases aris- ing on the south side, of the Thames, the proportion of aliens to the total number of persons dealt with is very much less, the figures being as follows: 674 prisoners and 11 aliens, or a proportion of 1*66 per cent. ?—Yes, I know the alien proportion does not exceed 2 per cent. Mr. W. R. on the south side. McConnell, 12722. That is accounted for by the fact, you think, K*c* that there are not in South London extensive colonies 26 Feb. 1903. of foreigners like there are in the north ?—That is what--- I have said. 12723. {Chairman.) When you gave the number of 107 you called them Polish. That, in the memoran- dum, includes all the Yiddish-speaking persons?—I think so. 12724. And would include, no doubt, Russian Poles ? —Russians and Austrians. 12725. And others—Yiddish-speaking people. It would not be necessarily confined to Russians and Austrians?—I cannot answer accurately, because I do not ask the particular place they come from, as a rule> and they are all classed according to whether they re- quire the assistance of the Yiddish interpreter. 12726. They would be principally Russian® and Poles, because you have separated the Germans?—Yes, that is where the interpreter speaks German to them. 12727. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Now, as to the classes of offences committed?—The offences used to be lar- cenous, and generally committed amongst themselves, such as goods entrusted for tailoring purposes being stolen or otherwise disposed of. Now, with regard to the offences, the most important one is the increase in burglary and housebreaking and stealing from dwelling- houses. 12728. Cases of wounding and assault are rare ?—They are rare, except that they are rather more common among the Italians. 12729. These you are referring to now are the offences of aliens of the Yiddish class?—They are all classes together, but the combinations seem to be principally of the German and Yiddish-speaking nationalities. 12730. Now, with regard to the offences committed by the German aliens?—They are principally bur- glarious offences—housebreaking—and. a good many have appeared recently where German waiters procured employment on false characters in lodging-houses or in restaurants, and there they steal from the inhabi- tants and visitors in the boarding-houses, and also steal the property of their employers. 12731. The German crime you refer to is a scientific crime ?—I should scarcely dignify it by that name. 12732. It is highly skilled burglary with scientific tools and so on ?—I happen to have brought one of the implements with me that turned up in a case at the last Sessions. This was spoken of by an intelligent officer who produced it as a foreign implement, generally found—I think he said exclusively—on foreigners. I have seen one of them before in my Court. It is an implement for unlocking the door from the outside when the key is on the inside. You will see here these places are made hollow so as to catch the end of the key, and then the implement is screwed tightly here {producing the instrument). 12733. A sort of forceps ?—'Yes ; it gives the operator the same power as if he had the handle of the key in his hands, and he can open the door in that way. 12734. {Lord Rothschild.) Is that instrument made in Germany?—There is no manufacturer's name on it. The officer who produced it, who seemed to be an in- telligent maw of some experience, said that that was * generally found on the foreign criminal. He said it was more especially their instrument, and he seemed to infer that they brought it with them. There is no manufacturer's mark on it. 12735. {Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to these- waiters who commit depredations, you say it is stated ' that a false character can easily be obtained for half a, crown?—That was given in evidence certainly. It had a heading on the notepaper of some rather important hotel, and purported to come from the manager, and the man who had it, who gave evidence, said they were; common in the clubs, and they could be got for half a crown. 12736. Now, with regard to the Italian alien, he is seldom charged with offences against property ?— Seldom ; but that has been rather increasing lately as regards offences against property. 12737. As a rule, he is before the Court in connec- tion with >a brawl ?—Yes. 12738. And a too ready use of. the knife ?—That is so,432 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. W.B. Wb had some time ago rather an outbreak of charges MeOonnell, against Italian ice cream merchants for acts of indecency K.c. with female children, tempted by the article they sold ; - -r:—- but we have not had any of them during the last few 26 Feb. 1903. months. 12739. With regard to the other classes, there is no 'special form of crime which they affect ?—I do not know that I can siay more than housebreaking, burglary, and also snatching property in the street—snatching women's purses and snatching watches, and that sort ot offence. 12740. You refer to a peculiarity which attaches to . the Yiddish criminal ?—Yes. 12741. Please tell us about that?—They invariably plead "Not guilty,"'and whether they speak English or not, they invariably ask for the services of the inter- preter, both in giving evidence and having the evidence of others interpreted to them. Indeed I think that is almost common to all aliens. 12742. (Lord Rothschild.) They all ask for an inter- preter ?—Yes. 12743. Germans and all ?—Yes, and in deed-the Welsh for the matter of that. 12744. And the Irish, too ?—I think so ; but we have very few of them—very few Irish-speaking ones. I do not say the nationality is not represented, but the ones who speak Irish are not. I' have never had one, I think. 12745. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You make a com- parison between the figures of 1902 and those of pre- vious years, as showing the increase of crime. Will you read those out so that we can get them on the note ?— In 1892 the number of prisoners dealt with north of the Thames was 1,627. Out of those 116 was, approxi- mately, the number of aliens, and that represents 7 per cent, of-the persons dealt with. 12746. Then in 1900 ?—In 1900, still confining myself to the north of the Thames, the number dealt with was 1,722, of which 185 were aliens, being 11 per cent, of the persons dealt with. 12747. What was it in 1902?—In 1902 there were. 1,896 persons dealt with and 249 aliens, or 13 per cent. 12748. These details refer to North London only?— To North London only, and they have been arrived at by the names in the calendar, and by the number of times the interpreter has been employed. 12749. You go entirely by niames in these things, or by the foreign language ?—That is the only way in which we can arrive at any conclusion. 12750. Would you say that amongst those not classi- fied as aliens there may be, and possibly are, some aliens who do not appear as aliens in tnis return?—More than possible. 12751. You do not make any special inquiry into their place of origin or anything of that kind ?—Where* they plead "Not guilty," of course, one cannot do it, at all events until after a verdict of " Guilty " ; but, except in exceptional circumstances!, where I may have put the question, we have not made the inquirv to1 keep any record of it. 12752. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is done in the prisons ?—Yes. 12753. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Supposing a man were to appear before you under the name of Smith, with a foreign accent, stating himself to be an Englishman, would you classify him as a foreigner or as an English- man?—He would not be classed as a foreigner unless there was some direct evidence to that effect. 12754. So, generally speaking, a number of foreigners may have got into -those returns who are not shown as foreigners ?—I should think it was rather the other way —-that they had been left out. 12755. That is what I mean?—They may have been left out of the alien classification, because there is no direct evidence. 12756. So these figures do not necessarily show the total numiber of foreigners ?—I said, at the beginning, they are only an approximation, as nearly as we can get at it. 12757. It would be an under estimate rather than an over estimate P—I should say so. 12758. Now, what area do you deal with altogether? —The whole of the administrative county of London, with the exception, of. course, of the City, which is in- cluded in the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court, but, of course, that is not part of the administrative county of London. 12759. Can you form any idea what the total alien population in that area io deal with is? Would it be the total alien population of London exclusive of the City ?—I should say it would be ; but isuch a floating population as we are dealing with now, arriving for a few weeks without any record of their existence one can- not speak positively about. I can form no idea. I have no evidence before me. 12760. The point I want to make is this : that the number of aliens relatively to the number of English people is very, very small ?—I should say so. 12761. So that the percentage of crime among the population is very, very large ?—At last session we had 25 per ;cent. in one calendar. Out of 103, 26 were aliens. 12762. So whereas the English crime is drawn from a source representing millions, the alien crime is drawn from a source representing only hundreds of thousands perhaps?—I cannot give approximate figures, but the proportion would be very much less—the! proportion to the amount of alien crime added to the calendar is very much more than is justified by a light percentage of the population. 12763. Now with regard to the suggestions you have to offer?—I scarcely venture to make any suggestion, because so many have been made by others better qualified to make any suggestion than myself, and so much more is within the knowledge of the Commis- sioners than I know, that I should scarcely venture to make suggestions, except that something, of course, as everyone says, ought to be done to restrict the landing of these undesirables. It seems to me something might be done in registration, if they express a desire to remain here for a month or any time which might seem fit. A registration, of the address and occupation might be of great use. 12764. (Chairman.) That is not connected with the mere landing ?—No, it is not connected with the mere landing; but they might give their names when they land, and their proposal to remain here, and then there might be subsequent registration if they remain, say, over a stated period. 12765. What would be the object of that?—To exercise certain control and observation over men of that class, who come without any means or any employ- ment. 12766. You would not apply it to all foreigners, as I gather from your last answer?—I hardly venture to make a suggestion, because there are so many difficulties that beset one at almost every point. 12767. We are not cross-examining you in any way. We are all much obliged to you for your ^suggestions ? —I have seen when I was on the Northern Circuit so many aliens passing through Liverpool that seemed to me to be Danes or Scandinavians. They seemed to me to be landed at Hull and carried by cheap rates through to Liverpool to the boats passing to Canada and America, and it did not seem to me that it would be worth registering them, as they were not stopping. A perfect stream of them seemed to be booked and trans- ferred by ship to America and Canada. 12768. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What would you sug- gest with .reference to repatriating the people who have proved themselves to be people of bad character ? —I say, if possible, it is most desirable. 12769. You see no reason why these people should come over here to commit depredations upon the English population, and be allowed to remain?—Cer- tainly, I would expatriate them at the earliest possible moment. 12770. Then you make a suggestion with regard to the American system being applied here?—As far as possible I should learn from others anything which would be of advantage to us. 12771-2. Anyhow, you would recommend a careful in- quiry—medical inspection and so on—with a view to keeping out those of an obviously undesirable character? —Certainly. 12773. You are strongly of opinion that there is immediate and pressing urgency for legal restriction to be placed on immigration ?—That is my opinion, formed firmly from having watched the progress of event® with attention for the last two years nearly.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 433 12774. Whether these aliens arriving here may have ^been criminals in their own country or not, it is, of -coarse, impossible to say, but you say that alien crime is increasing to a serious extent ?—Crime committed by ■ aliens, as shown by my calendar, is certainly increasing. 12775. And unless something is done to check it, you think It will continue to increase?—I see no reason to doubt it. At the last Sessions I made a note at the end of what I had said before to instance a case of two men, -Zambroski and Davis. They were charged with being ■ in possession of housebreaking implements. That is one of the implements which I produced. Zambroski had, been in England less than a month, and Davis had been here four months, and out of that time hei had mpeijit six weeks in prison for felony. They had arrived without any means, and could give no reason for their coining to England. 12776. (Lord Rothschild.) Your figures only relate to charges, and not to convictions' ?—Only to cases dealt ^ with—.that is, charges. 12777. You.have no figures relating to convictions? have not provided myself with those, but the pro- portion of acquittals is#not large. -9--12778/ (Mrs-iLytlelton.) I think before the Evidence <:Acfc the convictions were 85 per cent, out of indictablo -offences, and I should think .it has increased since?— Yes. •- •">12779. (Lord Rothschild.) Do you think many of these ^aliens who come here are criminals in their own country? e^To reply to tlmt is almost a guess, but as far as it has ^eoine before me, I should think a large proportion <_f •them have'not been convicted abroad. 12780. You think they become criminals, I will not ^y,,onrlaiiding here, but on living here?—-They develop ^jhe criminal,taint very rapidly. />*j(12781. Could you give any reason for that? Do you fihink^at it may be owing.to becoming acquainted with ^ha notice, as costermongers ?—I think there are some of ,'ihair own .country people who have arrived before wjio jsteri^ .education -very early on their '127^2^(81^ Kenelrrp Digby.) Your figures you say are, of course, imperfect. Do not you think that a better -basis would .be to .take the number of a] iens actually' received in prison as compared with the population? —That would be a matter, I should say, for the Home •Office. 12783. I only ask whether it would not be rather more complete than your figures?—I think it would be.. ^ , , ...... ..... 12784. I do not know whether you know the judicial ^statistics. 0 rTable^37 gives you not all you want, as I wid- point outiin a minute, bao it gives you the total jmuuber of prispnerisi received in-the year in all the Alisons-in-England, including the four London prisons, $rixdj the number.' of foreigners amongst thos e ?—Yes. 12785 Those -are, of course, convicted prisoners. 'They aire the prisoners received in prison. The figures are these in 1901. The 1902 figures are not out yet. At'Holloway, in 1901, there were 12,318 received, and •those from foreign countries were 412. At Pentonville there werel3, i79 prisoners, and 349 foreigners. This, of course, includes all prisoners, including summary juris- diction prisoners. At Wandsworth there were 12,153 prisoners, and* 396 foreigners. At Wormwood Scrubbs there were 3,959 prisoners, and the foreigners were 192 males and 18 females. Those are for that year, the total number including summary convictions received in Ahese ^prisons. In order to get the figures more accu- rate, and to get further information, one wants to break up those -figures, and one wants to know what countries they .come, from, what their offences are, and what those from foreign countries were 412. At Pentonville are you a vare that there are materials for getting those figures for a number of years ?—I was not aware of it. 12786. That would be rather more complete than the figures you have given ?—Certainly, I think your oppor- tunity of knowing their nationality, and all that is better. •"' 12787. Every person as he comes into prison is asked lais residence, and what country he comes from. There is. a form in which his country of origin is given, and his offence and his sentence. In that way we can get tthem from every:prison in England?—It would be very amich. more complete than mine. 12788. You would agree that would be the best waj- 6144. of getting these facts whatever inferences may be drawn Mr. W. It from them ?—Certainly. McCcnnell, 12789. I shall be quite prepared to have that don# K C- for a certain number of years, if there is time given ?— 0 ~ Q I think it would be very useful. e '_ (Major Evans-Gordon.) I think it would be very valuable- 12790. (Mr. Vallance.) Do I understand you aright, that you have reached the conclusion that upon a man being convicted of the second offence he should be liable to repatriation?—It is a matter of degree.. On the whole, off-hand, I should rather be of that opinion, unless on arrival he showed that he had no possible means of support here, and no trade, and, possibly, offences on his own side of the Channel. 12791. Assuming within 12 months of his. landing a man has been convicted of an offence, would it be desir- able to retain him, or to put him into the category of an undesirable?1—I should rather leave the answer to that to the legislature than answer it myself. 12792. (Mr. Norman.) I should like to ask you a question, which has been put once or twice to police officers before this Commission, with regard to thes« people. Ts it, in1 your opinion, the fact that their knowledge only of foreign languages, and their ignorance of English, makes it much m'ore difficult for the police to deal with them, and increases pro tanto their chance» of escape?—They have every opportunity of having both their evidence arid their-statements placed before the jury, and the officers who deal with the neighbour- hood from which these people come seem to understand. theari very well. 12793. We have it in evidence from the police, par- ticularly those employed in Stepney, that they do not understand it?—They do not understand - the words, bui they seem able to make each" other understand pretty well. 12794. I mean at a rather earlier stage in the process than their appearance before you. Would it not maka it much more difficult' for the police to get evidence suffi- cient to. bring them to trial ?—I think it makes it more difficult if the evidence comes from their own quality. 12795. Would it not follow that a larger proportion of alien offenders^ escaped punishment ?—I cannot answer one way or the other to that, with any confidence. I should say not much. I should think there is pretty much the same proportion as with the others. 12796. It would follow, from what appears on this note, and from your answer to Lord Rothschild, that London has absolutely become a school of crime for these aliens —that they come here in many cases believed not to be criminals, and ' by association with these foreign criminals already here, they are educated, to use your. * . . own words, in criminal practices, which they in many ----------- cases immediately commence ?-^These gangs have grown, .undoubtedly, and one must infer there is some common.ground .on which they meet, and on which they agree to enter on a course of burglary and plunder of various kinds. . .. 1 „ .. t 12797. Then it would not be an exaggeration to say, as far as these people are concerned, London is for them a school of crime ?—I am afraid it is growing to be so. 12798. With regard to the figures that Sir Kenelm Digby has quoted, those figures would not be of the same influence as your figures, because prisoners coming to Hoiloway and Pentonville would be all classes of prisoners, including a very large percentage for minor offences?—It does include ones summarily dealt with by the magistrates in the whole of the Metropolis. 12799. Whereas, before you only indictable offences are dealt with ?—Yes. (Sit Kenelm Digby.) When we get the complete returns I was talking of just now, you will see whether they are summary convictions or more serious offences, but these figures do not show it. 12800. (Mr. Norman.) I wanted to make that point clear at the outset. My point is that the figures at present quoted by Sir Kenelm Digby cannot be put alongside the figures you gave as proportional of alien crime ?—-He includes, of course, the ones summarily dealt with by the magistrates, and he includes those con- victed at the Sessions or the Old Bailey, or Clerkenwell and Newington. 12801. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Not those simply finefl who have paid the fine ?—No. 12802. (Chairman.) Or acquitted?—No. 3 1434 BOYATj COj^LMJgSTOlJj ON ALIEN IMMIGBATION , )• ^ .ra^r^Qod from Keyie].m 0ci?on^$tl, BigD'y & prisoner arriving 0£ JPentonvjl Ite is ;i k:-c. f^p^y gek^ corner* from. Would it not be ...—— f rtS& ck&e tfiair niariy of these w#o" would be known in ,p Fel^v 1^3r yoiit" court as aliens by the language, Would promptly ~~~ ~~ give an English residence^ arid, therefore, be classed not ' a& alielis? wihfeii in prison ?—I ato sorry I cannot answer that, because I do not know anything of the prison ^(Jdisciplin.e;, gr whether they tell lies when, they go to prison mdre freely than they do in court. I am afraid I caiinot answer that. , 12804. Buit would you my that simply asking a con- victed prisoner his place of origin would be a. sufficient wbasis for statistics' describing him as an alien or a non- alien ?—One would rather j udge by that as one element in the conclusion—both by his language and by what v he says.. . ^ 12805. Yiou would not consider his mere statement in ai3,swer to the question as sufficient basis for accurate statistics?-—I should doubt it......• 12806; (Mr. Lyitelton.) Do you see any motive he would .have in misleading th§ prison authorities ?—He may have committed an antecedent crime in his own country which he does not want followed up. The ; mot ive might be. different in each individual case 12807^ You say that so far as you can judge, all of the •foreigners ^ ask 'for th.e services of an' interpreter ?—I think almost invariably. 12808. I; suppose if they are examined themselves there: is a^i advantage to a prisoner in having an ir.ter- • preter, even if he does not require one ?—We diougiit so at the Bar when we were defending them sometimes. 1Z3}9^ Do you think there is any concert between thes 1 before they come into the dock5—a sort of password passed round that it is advantageous to have an interpreter ? Do they seem to be sufficiently com- bined for that purpose 1—All foreign-speaking prisoners, and, indeed, as I say,r our Welsh neighbours usually follow.that precedent. . 12810. (Chairman.) Always at Welsh Assizes, do they not ?—Yes;- We saw a good many of them at Liver- pool; I think it was invariable there for them to take advantage off the interpreter. ; - 12811. It gives them time to think ?—Yes. 12812. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It is possible, I suppose, that, ei pertain number . are not foreigners endea- vour to obtain. th^^^^f^age:|pr the^lavions xpa&1 am. a Yeh 1903 12826. You have been sitting there since January, —_ 1894 ?—I have. / 12827. Will you be good, enough to state the area of your, jurisdiction?-—The district of the Worship Street Police-court is bounded on the north by the North London Police-court District, on the south by the City, and for the greater part of the south by the Tfiames Police-court District; on the east by West ;Ham> and on the west by the Olerkenwell Police-court District. The; ^isteict. includes parts of the Metro- politan BorougliS) a greater or less part of Finsbury, Shbreditch, Bethnal Green, Stepney, Poplar, Hackney, and Islington. , 12828. In jour experience at the court you have reached certain conclusions in regard to this question of alien immigration, I think. Will you be good enough to say what points have been specially brought under your notice ?—There are two points I should like to bring to the notice of the Commission. The one is in regard to the great and increasing number of interpreted cases we have in the court, and the great difficulty we have in dealing -with them. The other is the great difficulty of keeping the streets clear for traffic by reason of the aliens who crowd them up with their barrows and stalls. Might I give, as I have taken them out, the total number of charges and sum^ monses dealt with at the court, and those which relate to aliens only. I take the charges and summonses together, I take them as persons dealt with, and I might say I have not taken ottt the number of persons who are convicted, or who are acquitted, because in some cases of course they are sent forward for trial, and it is difficult to get what the result may be, but I have taken the number of persons'who have appeared before the court on charges or summonses. I have taken the totalnumber of charges against all persons lied ; and Examined. •' at the court in the year 1902, which I have taken from, the registers kept by the magistrates in the court, Part 1 for the charges, Part 2 for the_§ummonses. The charges, which refer to persons taken into custody in Part 1, amounted to 6,687. The persons summoned before the Court, taken from Part 2 of the register, were 6. 760, making a total of 13,447, brought before the Court during that year on charges and summonses. Of these, the charges and summonses, taken together, against aliens were 1,279. 12829. (Chairman.) Could you separate those so as to show major and minor offences, charges and sum- monses ?—I did not take that. That leaves charge® and summonses together against other than aliens a& 12,168. 12830. About 10 per cent. ?—Yes. about that, my Lord. 12831. (Mr. Vallance.) Is the number of cases m which the services of an interpreter is required in- creasing?—The number of ca^es in which an inter- preter's services are required has increased, I think I may use the word, enormously, within the last three or four years. Three or four years ago, finding the system of interpreting very unsatisfactory, the magis- trates at the Thames Police-court—Mr. Dickinson and Mr. Mead—joined with Mr. Cluer and myself, Mr. Cluer being my colleague, in an application to have a permanent interpreter attached to the court. Of course, at present the only way the matter is arranged is by the magistrates allowing one person to interpret. It would never do to allow any friend who came witli a person summoned to interpret; and, of course, w© have to provide a person to interpret for the charges. 12832. (Chairman.) An independent person?—Yes. When I went to the court I found a man most unsatis- factory in every way. He, of course, was only per- mitted to come into court by the magistrates. He-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 435 w$s so unsatisfactory that after repeated warning by myself he was summarily excluded from the court by rmy ^oU$ague; one morning for misconduct. There- upon we tad to ,find another man, and that man has b.e&n interpreting at the court now for the last four or yeajrs. v He is a coffee-house keeper. No doubt •as;... a coffee-house keeper he has a large following of people who deal with him, and he is known to them, but I believe the man to be honest and straightforward, and he is sober, which our last man was not. I should' explain, perhaps, that he is paid in this way: when he is called by / the police or called into court by the magistrate ■ to interpret* he receives after thie case is; ov.^r - a certificate,. and the certificate is for 7s. 6d. for. tKe. first interpretation of the day, and 5s. for each sub- sequent o^ie, and those certificates are cashed by the Receiver of police. For these services last,year he re- ceived no less 'a sum than £90 15s. That is the Yiddish interpreter. Our present man speaks Russian, Oermari, and Yiddish, and for interpreting in cases whor^he was called by the Court, and interpreted for the Court, he received £90 15s. Besides all that, he received fees at the station when he was called by th'ef police to interpret when, a .man was taken into custody, ^nd in addition to that he received in wages casos alone, which I made,a list of, something over £70 in the year. 1283^. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That he received from the parties. ?—Yes; besides all the cases in which aliens are interested,, and they pay him< and they are obliged to pay him instead of paying any other interpreter in the court. 12854. (Mr. Vallance.) The interpreter's fee is added to' the cost ? — The interpreters fees in the case of charges are added to the costs, and recovered from the defendant, if you can recover them. 12835. You have the figures of the number charged with obstruction selling goods in the street last year I have. ' 12856»■ (Chairman.) Is Yiddish a difficult, language to learn ?—I wish I had learned it. I would seriously have learnt it if I had known the difficulty, even with an inter- preter; but unfortunately I did not; I may say> we have other interpreters in the Court. We have Polish and; Litjhua^an and Italian, for;,which we have to call in another interpreter, but We, only call in one man, and I see he got from us last year oyer £20 in fees. • 12837. (Mr. Zy Melton.) The Italian ?—Yes, the Italian"' interpreter. I was asked as to the number of persons broijgh,t before the Court for obstruction in the street; 414 appeared last year for stopping up the^ street^^ with their barrows and wares. ^ v ; 12858. (Chairman.) You have not been able tb assist ^ hy-giving us a comparison of these 1,279 aliens with past years?—Do you mean for years other than 1902? "12839.; Yes? for: past years, in order to show, the - in*- crease ?—No, I did not, I am sorry to say, for the reason that it takes a very considerable time to go through the register; but I may say this—it is increasing very con- siderably. It is increasing most in the wages cases which We have to try, and in the cases of obstruction. These have increased very greatly indeed, even since 1901. 12840. What are the wages cases ?—The Court of Sum- mary Jurisdiction has jurisdiction in wages cases up to £10. We try a. great number of those cases. We tried last year 295 of these wages caises—that is to say, be tween aliens. There are some others, but not a great number. We tried 295 of such cases. 12841. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Between alien and alien ?—Almost entirely. 12842. Bo th parties being aliens ?—Yes. Here - and there a case may have happened where one party was not an^ alien, but these cases were so few that I hkve taken ?no ^account of them. 128451 ^(Mr. Lyttelton.) Are thev for recovery of wages?—Yes. 12844. You are a Civil CoUrt ?—Yes, and that business takes a very undue proportion of our time. These people could go elsewhere. They could go to the County Court, but they come tb us because they pay 2s. for their; summons instead of a much larger hearing fee, and three or four of these interpreted cases, which are always fought out and hardly ever admitted, the evidence being interpreted on both sides, will last us an afternoon, in which time we could have disposed of a whole lot of work which could not be taken to any other court. tM County"- Court: th^1 oai$33 probably would not be heard for a month, whereas before Mr. >H. us they are probably heard within seven days. ' Corser. 12845. (Chairman.) As regards-charges for crime, have oa icww these increased ? You have given us the chatges for ", h .. 1902. Iii previous years were they similar ?—Very much the same as regards crime. I could give the number of persons if the Commission desires it, and the number of aliens charged last year. , 1 12846. Distinguishing the 1,200 ?—Yes, I can classify them. "■> v 12847. Distinguishing between wages cases and small things like bye-laws; and that kind of thing. What we want to get at is the crime, if we can ?—-I caoi give those, I think, '• • 'r - 12848. (Mr. Zyttelton.) Do the 1,279 include wages cases ?—The 1,279 includes every alien that is brought before the Court either on a charge or a summons. 12849. (CJiairman.): J.t would be a wages summons, and therefore it would comeunder summonses?—Yes.; - 12850. Now will you give us the number of criminal charges in the 1-279 ?^—Shall I take the persons who are summoned and taken into custody together ?' Taking the first heading, I have assaults, for *whieh there are 71 taken into custody and 156 summoned. 12851. That does not help us very much ?•—Then I will take the totals. For assaults thero were 227 aliens brought before the Court last year. There were 49 for betting and gambling, 67 for being drunk and disorderly, 110 for larcenies, and the remainder are all for offences whi^h are, of course, criminal in one sense, but they are not criminal in the ordinary sense, 12852. There may be assaults of violence in the 227?— Yes,: : : . 12853. The rest would differentiate those from the minor ones ?—Yes. -- • •• - 1 12854-5. Drunk and disorderly are not so very grave. Then there are 110 for larceny ?—Yes. 12856. Are there apy other grave criminal offences ?—^ Xo, not- taking last year. - 12857. Where do burglaries come in ?—I have taken those in the larceny. There were very few. 12858. (Mr. Vallance.) Do l understand there were 67 brought before the Court for being drunk and dis- orderly ?—Yes. ....... , -. 12859. What • nationalities would they be ?—They were all Yiddish - speaking. What their nationality might be 1 am unable to say. They were all YiddisE- speaking. 12860. Would that be, in your experience, an increase upon previous years ?—A very small increase! 12861. What proportion would that 67 bear, roughly, to the number charged ?—I am afraid I have' not that figure—a very small proportion indeed. * I should be in- clined to say not 1 per cent. 12862. These Russians and Poles are generally repre- sented as being a very sober people ?—Yes, that is so, and I think they are. That is my experience only from the bench of the court. I say nothing else. 12863. Have you any observations to make upon the position of the English costermonger in relation to his Mlow competitors?—Yes; the number of aliens who wore charged with obstruction in the streets altogether was 414 last year, and, so far as my recollection serves m^, going through the register there were only two* or tEree English persons who were summoned before the Court for that obstruction at all. The costermongers are allowed, under the regulations made by the Com- missioner of Police, to stand in certain streets. Might I just say that under t-h© Metropolis Streets Act, 1867, 30 and 31 Victoria, Chapter 144, no goods or other articles were allowed to be placed upon any footway within the general limits of the Act, and if that had stood, of course, no person could have carried on hp business in the street at all; but then the Metropolis Streets Amendment Act was passed, which said that the above Act should not apply to costermongers, street hawkers, or itinerant traders, so long as they carry on their business in accordance with the regulations from time to time made by the Commissioner of Police with the approval of the Secretary of State. The regulations were then made by the Commissioner of Police and approved by the Secretary of State that if a man put a cart.or stall 9ft. long and 3ft. wide >and kept; to one line of barrows on each side of the street he would not be 6144. S I 2436 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. interfered with. He must leave a 4ft. passage between Corser. each stall, and he must remove at the request of the - inhabitants to allow the1 access of vehicles to the door of 26 Feb. 1903. the occupier. They were not to be placed at street - crossings, and they were liable to be removed if they caused an obstruction to the traffic or a nuisance to the inhabitants. Upon that I should only like to say this, that although the Commissioner of Police does not interfere with them so long as they carry on their business in that way, there is nothing to prevent him doing so. It has been urged before me more than ono# by persons who appeared for the Costermongers' Asso- ciation, that so long as they do this they cannot be removed, but that is not so, and if it is found that streets cannot be used for the purpose for which they were made, at great expense to the ratepapers, they become an obstruction and they must be removed. The only other matter upon that is this, that that Act of Parliament deals only with footways, and when we get the street itself obstructed we have to go back to the Highway Act and deal with them under that Act for* wilfullv obstructing the thoroughfare. That we do. The difference is very small. The extreme penalty is 40s. in each case, and I may say that the extreme .penalty of 40s. is looked upon as rent or the expense of part of the business by the costermongers, and it is a very cheap rent into the bargain. 12864. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The number of cases have increased a good deal ?—Enormously. . , 12866. In consequence of a decision of the High Court pointing out that the costermonger had not got the protection he thought he had ?—That is so. 12866. (Lord 'Rothschild.) I suppose obstruction is when a costermonger prevents a van from unloading ?—It is no uncommon thing for a man with a barrow with a few apples or bananas on it to keep four or five vans laden with merchandise going down to the docks stand- ing in the street for a quarter of an hour. That is no uncommon, thing. Then he moves a little, and then he stops to sell again. They are not barrows, they are moveable shops, fitted with scales and everything else. Then, in the end, he is taken into custody, only to be followed by another man who follows behind as the police take him away. The only suggestion I might make upon that, which I put down in a note to make is that it should be made an offence to sell or expose for tale goods of this sort in a thoroughfare. It may be said Jhat these men supply the public with a consider- able amount of cheap food and vegetables. That is so, •but, after all, the public can get their cheap goods else- where, whereas the vehicles cannot go elsewhere than through the streets. 12867. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Would you stop the cost. termonger altogether I would not- stop the coster- monger altogether in certain places. May I give this instance? The highway from Dalston Junction up to the police-court, where I sat before I went to Worship Street, was so' blocked that the only means of getting to the station was in the street, with two lines of trams— a very disagreeable proceeding. The authorities took steps, and they summoned one or two. Perhaps they stood on a crossing or something. At last the authori- ties summoned the whole street, and there is not a single person standing there now, and has not been for the last three or four years. They did what was probably an illegal act—they found them room elsewhere. The difficulty of the district in which I am now sitting is •that it is very difficult to find room for them elsewhere, because every place is so blocked up. It is very little good continuing to fine them. They pay the fine in many cases. • 12868. I see you say you would stop them except in streets approved of /by the Commissioner of Police ?— Yes. 12869. (Lord Rothschild.) When they do not pay the fine, do they go to prison?—Yes. The fine generally commences with 10s., and if the interpreter is engaged, it is perhaps 5s. and the cost of the interpreter. Many of them go to prison with the money in their pockets. That is what happens. They would sooner serve the few days and keep the money. 12870. (Mr. VallanceS) The question of overcrowding has occupied the attention of the Commission. Would you desire to make any observations upon that ?—With great deference, I have had the opportunity of reading what Mr. Foot said upon that point, the district \ jing thoroughly familiar to me, and I fijrree with *11 his i'tujls. As to his deductions lam not so elsar. I have also tread what Mr. Mead said on the questionw before me last year only five persons- charged with over- crowding. I asked Mr/ Foot about that at the time,, and he saidy and he repeats it in his 4evidencej soni&ny people when they have a notice served upon them with regard to overcrowding pay attention to the notice,, and cease to overcrowd, and it is only in the last resort that they are brought before the Court. Thfe present' machinery is ample if you look upon the question of pre- vention by way of punishment. You can fine the m!a& £10 for the offence of overcrowding. If you serve ^ ai> abatement order on him you can fine him 20s. a day for the time he continues to oveir.rowd after the tim* the abatement order is served upon-him',' and if he wilfully disobeys an abatement order; 40s. a day. The law is amply strong enough to deal with the matter, but when you turn them out of one street they go into 'an- other. ; , ■ • 12871. From the standpoint of your experience, have you reached any definite conclusion as to the question, of alien immigration as to whether restriction should be imposed ?—I would say> as Mr. McConnell said, that, that is perhaps a question which every private indi- vidual has an opinion on. It is a question rather for the statesman than for the police-court magistrate, but if you ask me, my own opinion would be that there should be restriction placed upon it. As to sending the people out of this country, when they are^ convicted/rIt think they would decline to receive them, but tHat! i& another matter. As to admitting them, I see no reason whatever and no hardship at all upon every person who comes into this country having to bring papers wiih» him either by way of a passport, or banging papers- of . registration stating what he is, where he comes from^ and what his trade or profession is, and what .his family is. If such a person attempted to land withoiit' such papers, I do not see any hardship in preventing His. coming into the country. , ; > i 12872. (Chairman.) What would be the. effect of "having such statements made to the authorities ?—You 'must risk something, and I think if it was kriotvh ,to evefcy person who came from abroad, which it very sbon would be, that he must bring papers to satisfy the authorities, here otherwise he would not be received; into the country, it would check the stream of people immensely. (Mr. Lyttelton.) The shipowner would have io him back for nothing, and ; heu would have a r vital, interest in the matter. , •: (Chairman.) All Mr. Corser has said at pfesent i* that he should produce some papers or registration, wit> a statement showing who he was, and what he was. I suppose he was going on to say there should be some test applied, and some course taken in case they did not comply with it. ,r 12873. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Perhaps 1 inferred too- rapid ly ; but I gathered it would be useless to have an elaborate certificate or passport unless, if it were un- satisfactory the person were remitted to where he came- from ?—I wasi going to say that. 1 12874. That would give the shipowner a most vital* interest in shipping only people who wore desirable ?-— Exactly. " V - 12875. Otherwise the expense of repatriating them would fall upon him?—Exactly. ~ 12876. (Major Evans Gordon.) With reference . to. this point of the costermongers, we have had evidence1 before us here that this large and increasing num-i ber of foreign costermoongers inflicts injury andhard- ship upon the local costermongers ?—I think he under- sells them, and injures them in that sense. 12877. And by bringing the trade of costermonger- ing into disrepute?—That I can hardly say., .j| 12878. Into conflict with the magistrates ?^Noi;; be-3 cause the conflict between the English costermongeri and the magistrates, certainly in my district,, does not arise. '1 - ^ . 12879. The trade of costermongering hitherto, con- ducted without conflict with the magistrates 'is now: conducted with a great deal of conflict with the magis- trates owing to the fact of there being jso many foreigners in the street?—Yes? between the magis-J trate and the foreigner there is conflict, b^cjause he^ is breaking the law. ' ; 12880. Proceedings are then taken against foreigners,; and English people suffer in consequence ?—-I cam, hardly answer that, ; " 1 12881. The streets are much moire ovp^^^e^ifesf[ MINUTES OF EVIDJENGE. 437 they used to be with barrows and so forth?—They are. 12882. Anyway, there is a decided competition ?— Yes, there is competition in all trades. 12883. You bear out what the costermongers them- selves have told us. Then, with regard to these wages cases, would you give us a few more particulars aBout the nature of the cases? I understand they are cases between alien and alien ?—Yes, the wages cases, so far as we are concerned, arise in two trades, and two trades only. • One is the tailoring trade and the otherj is the cabinet-making trade, and they arise irt this way: The alien, on being landed, if he can do any work at; all> is taken to one of these trades ; that is to say, there are spots in my district where there are meetings held from day to day, and they cause themselves an obstruction. They are held from day; to" day, and the subjects discussed are , wages and the getting s of hands, and so on, for their trades. Directly a man lands, the cabinet maker and the tailor are on the look out for him. 12884. He is called a greener ?—Yes. They take the greener, immediately and they give him board and lodging, and' a shilling or two to spend during the first waek he' is here. The greener, when he finds he is doing some work, mixes with his fellows, and he thereupon finds they are getting much more than he- is, and he goes to the master and says : " I am worth 15s. a- week." " Oh," says the master, " go on, we will see about it." He does go on, hoping to get ,the money. In time the master does not pay him, and then he comes to the court and says: " The master agreed to pay me 15s. a week, and I claim it? from a certain day." That is the fruitful source of the wages cases* There is no evidence^ on either side except the man who 'h;as not been paid and the min -r who" says ifcle > has paid him. There is not a scrjap of evidence, an# I have been trying for the last 10 years to induce the master to buy a notebook to put. - .dowjif; the aim punt, of work given out and the price, ;and ^ when it is brought back, and so on. So far; J have, not been very successful. One man comes into the box and through an -interpreter says: "I claim so many weeks* wages 'for so many garments," or v^hateverit is. The employer say® : " No,^ I have paid you.*' 1 There is %io Evidence on either side, and what evidence there is comes through an interpreter, who in .each case understands English very indif- ferently. If you can imagine any, more difficult place for a tribunal to be in, I do not know it. It is the most unsatisfactory work that we have to do. It would be mitigated very much if we had an inter- preter attached to the court to deal with these cases. .12885. There is a strong inference from this that the employers of these greeners, these ignorant people, are doing them as much as ever they can?—It is difficult to express an opinion in that way, but I think you are relegated to probabilities in these cases. Evidence there is none, and the probability is that a man who has not been £aid his wages is more likely to remember it than a man who pays so many men .a week, and says, " I always pay my men on a Friday night, and I must have paid this man." 12886. At any rate, there is clear evidence of one thing, that they get these people into their clutches, and then refuse to> pay thecm afterwards ?—I think they do to a very large extent. (Chairman.) That is not quite what he said. 12887. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I will put it in this way : Can you infer that?—May I put it in this way : that in 99 wages cases out of 100 I find the plaintiff is successful ? 3:2888. That establishes my point. Is there any corre- sponding census area of your district which would show the relative proportions of foreign and English popula- tion?'—That, of course,, I do not know. 12889. What is your division of the Police ?—Wor- ship Street. - 12890 What is the number of the police—what lettei it is ?—G. H. J. and K. We have four Police Divisions. 12891. There is no corresponding area, because it is only parts of Finsbury, and parts of Bethnal Green, and so on?—Yes, a great deal of Bethnal Green and a very small part of Islington. 12892. The English population would be very much larger .than the foreign ?—Yes. The whole of the popu- ] at ion in the northern part of my district is English, and almost all except a few Italians on the Clerkenwell side. On the City side, of course, they are various, but it is on the Thames side where there axe the largest number of foreigners, where we run across into the Whiteohapel Road. 12893. Stepney, Bethnal Green, and Shoreditch would be the foreign parts chiefly ?—Yes. 12894. Taking the whole district, the English popu- lation would very largely outnumber the foreigners? —Yes; I could not tell what it is, but enormously. 12895. Therefore the percentage of charges you get against foreigners in your Court would be relatively high ?—I could not answer that question without know- ing what the population is in the district, and that I do not know. 12896. Are many gambling dens and night-house cases brought before you ?—Only 49 last year ; 46 were taken into custody and three were summoned. That is 49 altogether. There was only one bad case amongst those. That was the case where an alien had taken a shop and they played " faro," but they did not do that for very long. 12897. Now you speak as to the displacement of the non-foreign population by foreign and Jewish popula- tion, who take every available house and sublet only to people of their own race, and so on?—Yes. I did not come across that quite either by charges or summonses, but I came across it in this way: There are numbers of streets where houses are being built, and they have to be built, as you are aware, in accordance with the. London Building Act. If intended to be let out to>. members of the working classes, they have to be a cer- tain distance away, and so on. In many of those cases- , I went to see them, not to give any evidence on the:- matter myself, but I went to see them for the purpose of understanding the plans, and in all those cases that, I went to see during the last year, and certainly the,,, year before, where the old houses have been cleared away, and shops and living rooms placed above them, the whole of the house and shop would be let to one man, and in every case he was an alienu Then he will only let to aliens again. That was not before me in any way except in that way I have told you, but I went for my own information to see these various plans to - understand them better, and I found in every case that; . this occurred. 12898. (Mr. Lyttelton.) In every case of a new building?—Yes. Of course, there may be some I did not go to, but all I did go to the property owner was an alien, and the builder was an alien, and the occu- pants were all aliens, and you will find it impossible for-a non-alien, as I will call him for the moment, to . get any room in that house. 12899. Would you say from your knowledge of the , district there is any feeling of discontent arising: from, these different reasons owing to this influx?—Yes, I think there is. 12900. With regard to this matter of overcrowding, what you say is that to enforce the law vigorously - against overcrowding would mean turning a number- of people into the street ?—I answer in this way: If ' you begin at the end of the street which is overcrowded, and you turn one family into the street, or one house . into the street, that family would become absorbed. We find that to be so. If you begin at the end of the, street, and turn the whole street out, then they cannot be) absorbed. Then this difficulty arises: if you only attend to the one house, and let them settle again, in. time you get the next house to the first house over-, crowded again. 12901. Overcrowding, to be dealt with at all suc- cessfully, would have to be dealt with uniformly all over London, otherwise you are merely transferring the evil existing in one district to-day to another district to-morrow ?—If you mean by that, if you be- gin all over London and move the population from one place to another, as one witness said, it is just like putting your hand in a bucket of water ; you may stir the whole thing round, but you do not decrease the volume or the bulk of the water in the bucket. 12902. The question ultimately must be the ratio be- tween the number of people you have to bon«e- and the number of houses you have to put them in ?—If in stirring your hand round, you spill a little water over, the^ water is absorbed, unless somebody is pouring it in with h's other hand. That is what is' hap- pening here.' The illustration was a very happy one. Mr. H. Corser- 26-Feb. 1903.438 OYAL COM MISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATIO ■Mt\s E. - (Mr. Norman.) You gave us some very in— &o?'ser.: ' teresting. figures, amongst others, with, regard to in- fcerpreting.. : Can you give us any idea; as to the total I pejx. 1903. cost ot interpreting in your court-^ahy approxiimate '• figure for a year?—Do you mean the total cost whether paid by the parties or not? XT.. 1^904. (Qhmrman.) The total payment Mr. Norman is-asking. Who pays it is another matter. How much . the interpreter earns is the question you are asked ?—That would be taking the £20, the £90, and the £70;^ ;It is very difficult for me to arrive at whai is' jiaid by-^th^ partes in cases, but still, tfiat' is:'a Jtery stahtial sum altogether, and I think I ; should not be going out of the way in saying that between £40 and £50 a jeax is expended. 12905. (Mr. Norman.) Out of the public funds?— No, altogether. I am dealing altogether asLord James has put it with the ahioiint expended from one soured or "another'in' interpreting.; T think I sftdiild p&ftaps mention that we might very well have a permanent official attached to the Court. I do n'ot know whether I need mention my difficulties, but you might guarantee him a certain sum which would' he paid out of the public; funds, and, whatever else he took from the parties that they, paid themselves he would receive. 1 think that would be the solution of it. That was the solution suggested by us some time ago-;, ;ajnd- I4hi**:k • possibly now with these very greatly increased figures something might be done. When we mentioned the; matter before I do not think the interpreter was re- ceiving half the amount he is receiving to-day. 12906. I understand you to suggest that this em- ployment of the coffee-house keeper asv a vehicle of British law is eminently unsatisfactory ?—The man is an honest man. There are charges made against him • -very often by people who are jealous of his position, but I have never found them true. :T have always found them untrue. ••• 12907; It would be to expect him to be something • moxe, than human not to be swayed by certain con- .'•sideratio^s ?—^Certainly. Of course, it is a - highly un* desirable thing. I may say that when we asked for ..an interpreter before, the Chief Rabbi was very good indeed to us, and he assisted us very ariateriaUy inra :mumber of applications, but we could not theii for the money which was to be paid get anybody t6 take the work up. The Chief Rabbi seiit us One or two men, . and they said : " If you guarantee us a certain sum we .- should be very glad to assist you." The notices in the passages outside the . court ought to be in Yiddish < and English, and the Chief Rabbi was good enough "ito have the notices interpreted into Yiddish; and they Slang in our passages now. 12908. This amount of blocking of London magis- trates, courts with these interminable and increasing wages cases is surely a very serious matter indeed in. the administration of justice?—it is a very serious matter .for us, because the work has to be got through, ,ancl thereis., a lot of time spent on it on busy .days,-, and people are thrown over from one day/to another, ... . and they have to come and lose their time and their \work because of these cases. 10909. You mean it is a serious matter for the public ; interest which you represent ?—-Yes, for the business - of the Court—not for the magistrate. He can only sit \there all the day and try what cases come before hint. 12910. Did you happen? to hear my question to Mr. McConnell as to the effect on the administration of justice of i the police not knowing the- language of a .great many of the men they have to deal with?-—Yes, •I heard the question. 1-2911. Would you be good enough to tell us your opinion on that, my object being to elicit information as to whether a larger proportion of foreign offenders does not necessarily escape justice on account of the difficulty that the language puts in the way of the' police?—No, I think not, and I thought not when I heard Mr. McConneirs answer. I think a man is more likely to be taken into custody on some charge because he cannot give an explanation at the time, and in a language which the policeman understands. Numbers are taken into custody because they do not understand ^hat the police say to them ; and when they are brought up they are discharged. I find that to be the^ case. I do not say in a considerable number of cases, but there are cas that I have seen in cases constantly ; the police come to me an^ say that there are certain witnesses who could give .evidence, but they will not; and if they do come, a witness brought on a witness summons is not much' good. . .. 12914. That is one reason, if not the one originally suggested, to us, why a larger proportion ' of foreigners would escape conviction than English ?-j-Io, not when a case is made out against them. : 12915. I just understood you to say there'was great difficulty in making out; a case against them ?^-I think there is, but that is not on account'altogether-of language ; that is the question of the feeling between themselves,' and they decline to give evidence against one another. ; r "o-.v1- .. 12916. But that comes to the same thing. There is a larger proportion. of foreigners ?—One arrives at that conclusion, but not by the same road. 12917. It is more difficult to deal with foreigners ?— Yes, it must always be. 12918. And this ignorance of language would have the effect that a plot might be hatched almost under the nose of the police and they Would not be so likely to find it out as if the men concerned in the plot spoke the same language as the' police?—I think that is 1 obvious......• ! -• • -• • • • 12919. Do you agree with Mr, McConnell that alien crime is more likely to increase, and" that that is its apparent tendency ?—-I should have said only in pro- portion to the population. 12920. In proportion to the alien population ?—As the alien population increases these crimes will increase. t 429'2ir And, of course] the alien population is in- creasing ; therefore the answer to my question is in the affirmative?—Yes. ^ - •, : ■ ii2€f2:2. (Chairman.) The more aliens the ihore alien crimes ?—It is, obvious. . ; ' ; 12923. (Mr: Lyttrtton.) You said that the , present machinery was ample for dealing with overcrowding> but that is from the legal point of view, I gather?— Yes. 12924. You have had fo much experience that I ven- ture to. ask you this : Supposing you, were a member of the .local authority intp whose hands the institution of proceedings is vested in these cases, would you fear- lessly . apply that machinery, or do you. think the^ diffi- . culties would, he so great that you would abstain ?— You would have an enormous number of persons turned out for whom there was no shelter except further over- crowding in other places ; you undoubtedly would" have that. ' May I put it in this way: if the whole of your district is overcrowded or is so full that if you put any more persons into a house they would overcrowd it, if you shifted them from one part to another you would only overcrowd somewhere else. 12925. I quite follow that. Perhaps it is hardlv fair to ask you what you would do in such a case, but is the result, that proceedings are not, in fact, taken by the.local authority?—I think what Mr. Foot said in his evidence was that, there was a disposition not to take proceedings, in those cases where verf great hard- ship would be inflicted. I had one case before me last year. An alien collected his own rents, and there were eight or nine tenement rooms in the houses ; he had collected these rents from week to week, and he knew there were more people in each room than there ought to bey and' I fined him £5 and a substantial amount of costs in each case. 12926. But at present no experiment has been made by any local authority having to deal with ihis matter ; that is to say, fearlessly enforcing the law without thinking of what the consequences would be?—Not m my district. 12927. At present it is untried ^ -Inv.my* district it is untried.MINUTES : OF: •. EVIDENCE 439 youixas magistrate, -seen any evidence "j°fa . Ukely to lead: to a breach of the peace against aliens because of .their existence^ and the com- petition ?—I think there is a feeling, and at times it ^it^^td-aicrisis—there is undoubtedly a feeling. 12929. But it has not yet in your experience broken .out -very largely ?—No, there will always bo a feeling when one man is undersold by another. 12930. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) As to this overcrowding, I suppose if that argument had prevailed, we should never have done anything at all in the way of enforcing the law. When the Lodging House Act was first en- acted there was an enormous amount of: overcrowd- ing—much more than we have at present ?—Yes. 1?931. That, I suppose, was gradually overcome by enforcing the law?—I;think so. 12932. ^Vnd in some parts of Condon it has been over- come successfully by enforcing the law?—Yes. 12933. Why should not that be the case in the Ekst End if the law is enforced uniformly?—-It is purely a housing ^question.; . it is a,. question where the, .people are to go when you turn them out. If you once get to the point at which your district is filled and cannot te filled any fuller, if you turn people out of one part of- thei district they must go somewhere. . 12934. But you are constantly turning people out now by destroying buildings and building factories, and sp forth ?—I am not. 12935. (Chairman.) But in your district it is going on ?—Yes. 12036. (Sir Kene'm JDigljy.) The fear of turning people out does not prevent a very great deal of de- struction of houses, and the consequent overcrowding in^ other places. If the law is. uniformly; enforced, might we not fairly look to a very considerable im- provement? I doj not mean enforced at one go, but doing it gradually ?—-The law is being enforced out- side the Court. The law is being enforced in this way—that notices are served on these people to abatj the nuisances of overcrowding, and although, ,as Mr. Foot said, a large number of notices were served in our district, only five persons were charged with dis- obeying these notices. < 12937. Then the inferencefrom, that would be that the notices were fairly successful?—Yes. 12938. And that the overcrowding to that extent is abated ?—Yes, it is abated. 12939. Supposing the law were uniformly enforced, would not that of itself prevent the increase of over- crowding, if people know they could not overcrowd without incurring these penalties;?—Yes ; I think it the law were enforced all over the police district—<1 do * not mean by the local authorities, but in the same way as Other Acts of Parliament are enforced all over the district, not waiting for the local bodies to move —then I think you would attain the end that you desire, 12940. Where you have a system of bye-laws under the Public Health Act by making the overcrowding itself a criminal offence?—Yes. 13941. And they define what overcrowding is?— Yes. . 13942. Your remedy is that everybody should have papers, and you would have a general system of pass- ports?—Yes, I would ; not that it would be successful in all cases; I do not pretend that it would. But if it got to be known that no person would be admitted into this country without papers or a passport, I think clearly it wtiuld tend to check it. 12943. If We do that, we must apply it to every- body?—^ the evil is a serious one, then I think every- body ought to bear their share of the trouble of en- forcing it. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It was applied to me in Boston this summer. 12944. (Mr. Vallance.) Can you say whether there is a map of your police district available ?—Yes, there is; a map is sent round to all the police-courts, with each district marked upon it. 12945. (Chairman.) The three courts that would assist us most with regard to aliens would be, I sup- pose, Worship Street, Thames, and Marlborough Street, which takes in Soho ?—Yes, you would get all uiiat district there. 12946. Those would be the three Courts; incest ..affected Mr. Mi by aliens ?—Yes; you Would have a very different class Covsm of aliens altogether at Marlborough, Street. : ^ Feb 12947. Can you in your own Court define ait all froin " what district you obtain the most alien charges ?. Do you sit in one courthouse ?r^Yes, the courthouse is sitiiated in Worship Street, vv .. . - , 12948. You take in Stepney ?-r^Part of it. 12949. Part of your district would be almost fret* from aliens?—Yes, certainly, the northern side and the side towards Clerkenwell. The Clerkenwell side of our district is entirely free. It is only in the Stepney corner really. 12950. Can you without much trouble get for us what has been the increase in the alien charges since any time you like 1 You have given us 1902> but can you give us any past years, say four or six years back ?— Any particular year? 12951. No; so long as you give us some interval?^ Would fiye years ago do? - 12952. Yes, that would do. Then another thing I should like would be—we want to compare alien crime; with alien population—could you in, any way mark out the Stepney charges, so that we could compare the increase in the Stepney criminal charges with the Stepney increase in the alien population; can ;you do that for us ?—Our register at the Court only shows the constable making the charge, and then in the. other column it shows the person charged. I think that. could be obtained from the police-stations. 12953. It would be very uncertain, I suppose 1—• Yes, uncertain. 12954. I would not ask you to do Jt unless it was at your hand?1—You could only do that by taking the ' charge-sheet si from the various police-stations, not the Courts. There are several police-stations in the district, and you would have to get out extracts from the charge-sheets. 12955. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you would not know whether you did get all the aliens, because there- is no evidence as to what their place of origin is 7— You would have to be guided by the name, arid 1 should say as Mr. McConnell says, that all these star- tisties really contain less aliens than is really the fact, because so many of them appear in English names. 12956. (Chairman.) You have to deal with these over^ crowding questions, and have to make orders from/ time to time ?—Yes. 12957. When you make an order that a -state of overcrowding is to be modified, do you enter at all into the question of what is to become of the people - who are moved out?—I am afraid not. I could not. do that. 12958. I only want the fact ?—No,. I should not do so. 12959. It would not be your duty ?—No; if cases come before me of overcrowding, and I found the room was overcrowded, the law saying it shall not be, I shonld simply enforce the law. 12960. Then, whatever may be the evil resulting . from that state,.of things, of their being turned out, . they must find the remedy ?<—I think so, or by legis- lation. 12961. When you make your order there is no legis- lation?—No ; they must find the remedy, 12962. Have you had an, opportunity of reading the suggested Bill that Mr. Mead gave to us ?—-I have. 12963. Knowing what is there suggested, what is your view with regard to his suggestions? He is a colleague . of yours, and therefore I ask you ?—So far as he a^id I would go on the same lines I agree with" him. I think the provisions in the Bill are good to that extent. 12964. To what extent ?—To the extent that persons should be provided with papers or passports when they come to this country, and if those are not sufficient they should be refused admission. 12965. You have not entered into the details of what should be contained in those papers, or what sort of certificate it should be, but only that there should be a certificate?—Yes. I have read the Bill, but I did not. Street, which takes in Soho?—Yes, you would get all that district there.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. 12966. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are aware that Corsvr. from Russia and Poland and Roumania nobody is sup- - 3>cw*ed to leave that country without a passport from • Feb, 1903. their Government?—I did not know that. 12967. Everybody who does not escape is bound to have a passport before he can get permission to leave the country, or even to pass from town to town ?—Yes. 12968. Therefore there would be no hardship in people coming from those countries producing their papers ?— No, there is no* hardship, and if there was a hardship I do not see why we should not be protected. 12969. Those persons are bound to be in possession of papers if they come legitimately ?—Yes. 12970. I merely mention that to you to see what yoi* would say?—I quite follow you. Inspector John Hayer, called in j and Examined. Inspector J. Hayer. 12971. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You are an Inspector of Police of the C Division?—Yes. 12972. What is the area of your district?—From St. Martin's Place, St. Martin's Lane, Upper St. Martin's Lane and St. Andrew Street on the east, to Park Lane on the west, Pall Mall on the south, to Oxford Street on the north. It is the whole of that area. 12973. (Chairman.) Popularly this is Soho?—Yes, my Lord, it will take in Soho. 12974. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The whole of that "block behind Regent Street is taken in by your district? 12975. (Mr. Norman.) It is the extreme of wealth .And poverty ?—Yes. 12976. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Will you giv© us the characteristics of your district ?—Do you mean, as to the . inhabitants ? 12977. Chiefly as regards the foreign population that We are dealing with. Is part of this district largely in- habited by foreigners ?—Yes. Do you wish a skeieh of the nationalities ? 12 §78. Yes?—We have French, Germans, Austrian# in considerable numbers, and many Russians and P®Iish Jews. The largest number of foreigners, I think I am right in saying, living in Soho and its vicinity are? now Italians. They seem to have taken the place of what :was formerly a French colony. J.2979. The Italians have displaced the French?—Ife®. 12980. There are a yery large number of Italians?— Yess, very large indeed. 12981. Do you come in contact with them, or, ratfar,, do they come in contact with the police much?—Fre>- quently. 12982. For what sort of things—assaults, and so cor ? —What we should describe as crimes of violence. 12Qg5. They show a tendency to use the knife, stud so . 3 XJ1 PQ s sS o S3 X/l W S) £ 11892 .11902 - 324 293 296 237 28 56 487 503 433 417 54 86 32 10 25 406 697 256 350 150 347 2,884 3,512 2,754 3,275 130 237 2,170 1,305 1,999 94 171 13007. In 1892 there were 324 persons charged, of whom 296 were British subjects, and 28 foreigners. Those charges were in respect of crimes of violence?—» "Yes. 13008. Then in 1902 there were 293 persons charged, *of whom 237 were British subjects, and 56 foreigners ?-—. "That is so. 13009. A decrease in the British, and an increase in rthe number of foreigners ?—Yes. 13010. Then the number of persons charged for larceny and receiving in 1892 were 487, of whom 433 "were British subjects, and 54 foreigners. In 1902 there were 503 persons; charged, of whom 417 were British -subjects, and 86 foreigners, again showing a decrease in the British subjcts, and an increase of foreigners ? — "Yes. < 13011. Then, for brothel-keeping, in 1892 there were 32 persons charged, 7 of whom were British subjects, and -25 were foreigners; in 1902, there were 10 persons charged, 1 British subject, and 9 foreigners—a decrease all round. What do you attribute that remarkable de- crease to ?—To the same influence as brought about the -decrease in the clubs, greater activity "by the local authorities. 13012. They institute proceedings?—Yes, in these casess. 13013. They inform the police, and then you act ?— 'They apply for process, and we execute it; and beyond that we get the evidence if required. 13014. Then we come to night clubs and! baming clubs. In 1892 there were 34 charges; 14 against British •subjects, and 20 against foreigners. In 1902 there were 104 persons charged, of whom 44 were British subjects, and 60 foreigners. Then, " prostitutes." In 1892 there were 406 persons charged, of whom 256 were British ^subjects, and 150 foreigners. In 1902 there were 697 persons charged, of whom 350 were British subjects, and -347 foreigners. What are those prostitutes, charged with ?—Generally, disorderly conduct and soliciting are -coupled. 13015. You can charge for soliciting in the streets ?— We do not as a practice. If a gentleman complains, we ask him to substantiate his charge before a magistrate ; but in most of those cases the woman would be charged as a common prostitute behaving in a riotous and in- decent manner. That is generally the offence charged against these people who fall into our hands. 13016. Then, "drunkenness." In 1892 there were "2,884 persons charged, of whom 2,754 were British sub- jected and 130 foreigners. In 1902 there were 3,512 ^persons charged, of whom 3,275 were British subjects, 6144. and 237 foreigners. Then we come to " other offences." In 1892, 1,399 persons charged, of whom 1,305 were British subjects, and 94 were foreigners. In 1902 there were 2,170 persons charged, of whom 1,999 were British subjects, and 171 foreigners. What are these "other offences"?—Minor offences, such as obstructions, and many things that we have power to arrest for, too numerous to mention, and which are not detailed in these headings. 13017. (Chairman.) This table only refers to the " O," or St. James' Division ?—Yes. 13018. Can you get out the portion of the district where the increase in the foreign crimes have sprung from ? Has it been in the Soho portion of the district ? —Putting it roughly, I should think it would be north of Regent Street, and taking the whole of Soho to Oxford Street. 13019. Is it within your knowledge whether there has been a great increase in the alien population in that district ?—Yes. 13020. And that increase of crime comes from there? —I can hardly answer that question, my Lord. I have got nothing to show me where these are picked up for these offences. 13021. You have no official or technical knowledge, but have you any general knowledge as to where they are likely to come from?—I should think that Soho would be productive of a lot of crime. Beyond that I can hardly say. 13022. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is the most crowded and the most foreign, of the districts under you ?—-Yes. 13023. That block behind Regent Street?—Yes. 13024. In these charges is there not the possibility thaj all these foreigners, who are really foreigners, arel not included in this return ?—I think it is very probable. 13025. What evidence do you go on to show that these people are foreigners ?—The peculiarity of the name might lead to the question, " Are you a British subject, or what subject are you ? " 13026. He says what he likes ?—Yes, we take it as it is given. 13027. It rests with him really very much ?—Yes. 13028. If he says, "I am Smith, from Bow/' you would accept that?—Yes, unless there was something to make you think he was a foreigner—from his accent, or something of that kind. 13029. Even if he had an accent would you put him; as a foreigner ?—Not without him stating so. 3K442 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Inspector J. 13050. (Mr. Norman.) Supposing a man conies and Mayer. says that his name is Klovotsky, and he speaks with a --very foreign accent, and you say, " What nationality are 6 Feb; 1903. you?" and he says, " A British subject," you put him T""~- down a British subject?—He would tell us possibly that he had bfeen naturalised* and, we should accept it. 13031. Then, when he said he was a naturalised sub- * you would put him down a British subject?—Yes. 13032. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You would not .verify his statement, and find out whether he was Naturalised ? —No. - ................ 13633. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Has such a thing ever occurred to you ?—No. : 13034. They do not say they are naturalised fre- quently?—No. , 13035. (Mr. Norman.) I do not know whether you understand Mr. Lyttelt-on's question; Do you say that you think foreigners never tell you they are naturalised British subjects ?—No, I did not mean that. I thought you. meant did I ever have a foreigner describe himself as a British subject, and find out that it was not so. I never had such a case. 13036. You have often had a man whom you knew, acting on your own common-sense, you would take to be a foreigner, and you have often had him say he was a British subject?—Yes. 13037. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to> these foreign prostitutes, is there any means of identifying them as foreign prostitutes? Supposing there was a I question of; repatriating them, and so on. Could you identifv them as foreign prostitutes; are they known to the police?-—Only by their own description of their nationality. To a man unacquainted with the foreign language, a-German might, be mistaken for a Dutchman. 13038., You would be able to distinguish them as foreigners ?—Yes, in most cases. • 13039. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.). With regard to these clubs, 'are- you-getting many on the register now ?:—Up to date we have got a total 'of 126 all registered in oirr district. 13040. Are the bogus clubs coming on the register , or not ?—I think not. The conditions are so simple that a membership of about 20 would justify them in register- ing anything, as long as they kept it in good order. 13041. As d matter of-faict, they are not coming on the registef ?—No, they are not. 13042. (Mr. Lyttelton.) One has hearxjl about clubs of an anarchical, character. In these other offences which you have mentioned, do you include any such, or have you any knowledge of any such?—I have no knowledge ' of any: such existing now. 13043. (Mr. Norman.) Would it be correct to say that a very large part of the work of t.he police in the district consists in dealing with the offences of aliens?— It would be correct. > 13044. A very large part?—Yes. 13045.. And,- of course, it'would follow from that, would it not. .that the police force in your district is neces- sarily very much larger on account of the foreign popular- tioi* than it would otherwise .be?—Yes, we are large in number, considering the area. Our area is only seven- tenths of a square mile, and our strength is 496 of a'l rahks engaged on the various duties; 13046. That would be a very much larger proportion than anywhere else in the Metropolis ?—Except one division. The A Division at 'Whitehall I daresay haa more men than we have. 13047. That would be from quite special and different reasons than criminality?—Yes. 13048. With regard to foreign languages, is it not in your experience difficult for the police to get evidence . and to prepare cases against foireigiiers, owing to their necessary ignorance of all these foreign languages ?—It has not Oome under my notice that it is so, but I have no doubt it has happened. 13*049. But naturally, if you yourself do not happen to speak some of these foreign languages, if you are pre- ' paring a case against somebody who is charged, you must find much greater difficulty than you would have if you could put your questions and get them answered in your own language ?—Oh, yes; but we can always get , an interpreter where I am now stationed, so we do not have the difficulty they have in other places. 13050. But that fact in itself adds to the diffi- culty, does it not?—Yes. 13051. Perhaps you heard what Mr. Haden Oorser said about the unwillingness of getting aliens to give - evidence against aliens ?—I did hear that. 13052. Is that, in your experience, a fact ?—It is,... even more than getting evidence to work a case up. 13053. It is commonly said that foreign criminals- of all kinds fleeing from, justice, or planning crimes, take refuge in Soho, is that your experience?—'Ex- perience has proved that it has been so in many- cases. ' , 13054. It is a sort of refuge for a good 'many of the criminals?—Their object mainly is to join their countrymen, and live amongst their countrymlen, when they come here, so they, go to Soho, because there is a large number of them of all nationalities living there. 13055. Do you think their object also would' be to have a comparatively safe resting place for a time while they prepare their plans for their next move? —I am afraid I cannot answer that question.' 13056. Have you known of any organised gangs of foreign criminals in Soho that have been known to the police, or broken up by them ?—No. 13057. Can you tell us anything about anarchists in Soho; we have heard a great deal about them? —I do not know of the existence of any. We have a special branch which deals with that class of per- sons ; and I have never heard of there being an or- ganisation of that kind existing in Soho. 1305<8. They would not come under your special knowledge ?—Not without a special case occurring. 13059. There is a special branch of the police force that deals solely with this question?—Yes, all over- England. ,13060. Is it true, as we so often hear, that there . are certain quarters in "Soho—I am not sure, whether . this is a fair question to put to you, because it may possibly imply some reflection on the police, which... ,is. very far from my intention—but one constantly ' reads that there are dangerous quarters in Soho to- day, where anybody walking alone at night would be in considerable danger?—I do not think, that is correct. I cannot agree with that. Such things could occur as people being assaulted' and robbed, but to no greater extent in Soho than any other part of the district. It is a thickly populated district. 13061. (Major Evans Gordon.) You would not mind going alone?—No. 13062. (Mr. Norlnan.) Is it safe for an ordinary citizen to walk at night through this part of Soho? —Yes, I think so, through the main streets ; I do not mean- courts and alleys, but I say the main streets. 13063. There is a sort of concentration of dan- gerous population in Soho?—Yes, from the very nature of it. - . 13064. (Chairman.) We have been dealing with two < classes of aliens, one is the workman who comes over here and works at a cheaper rate of wages andi long hours at slipper making and waistcoat making and so on. What class of aliens do you get in Soho, are they the .working men, or are they the great un- attached ' class of1 persons ?—They are particularly • working men. . 13065. What * class ?—Tailors, hatters, cap makers, ' and a few cabinet makers, and a few engaged in t^ie boot and shoe trades. . , 13066. Do the criminals that you get come from ' that working class, or from the unattached people? —I should think from the unattached people. 13067. And the prostitute and the gambling club- keeper ?—Yes. 13068. And as to the workmen, who are working there for wages, should you call them a well-con- ducted or an ill-conducted class of people?—I should call them well-conducted, as compared with our own people. . 13069. In what respect %—They give us no more- trouble than our. own people. ' 13070. With regard to temperance, or drunkenness, . what do you say ?—I think they are more sober than the general Englishman, according to our statistics. 13071. At any rate, you have a very undesirable class in what we call the unattached persons ?—We have. 13072. They go where they can find their fellows - speaking their language?—That is so. (Adjourned for a short time.)MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 443, Rev. Charles Ensor Walters, called ; and Examined. 13073. (.Major Evans-Gordon.), t You belong to the, West London Mission,- and you are ;a member of the .-St. Pa,ncras Borough Council, and late chairman of "the St. Pancras Public Health Committee* and manager: • of the local group of Board Schools ?-—Yes. ■ '13074... You have worked for the. last, seven and a hall . years in West London as a minister of the West London Mission Organisation, founded by the late Rev. Hugh Price Hughes ?—Y6s. 13075. Your work has been mainly in the region -of Cleveland Street and Fitzroy Square ?—Yes, mainly iri that region; but, of course, in other parts as -well. 13076. This district has .become more or less cos- mopolitan?—Yes. I might explain that in the Cleve- land -Street district, by which I mean the district Tbounded by Tottenham. Court Road and Cleveland -Street and Euston Road, northward, of course, of Soho, there has been an increase of late years in the foreign population. 13077. And a consequent pressure for house accom- modation?—A consequent pressure. I may explain that that district being very near to the West End " houses of business, tailors and kindred tradespeople - who bring their work home, of necessity, try and live : near the district, because of the difficulty of getting a- distance. These houses were originally built for < one family, and now are occupied by four, five, and six, and sometimes seven families in one house, and -a, family in a single room. Of recent years there has undoubtedly been an increase in that district of the disorderly foreign element, so that there are a large number of houses of ill-fame, and people who seek to . get accommodation, because of its nearness to Westf London, for disorderly purposes, and the • consequence is that there is extreme overcrowding, and the district is more or less demoralised by the foreign element who are engaged in the traffic in - social vice in the district. 13078. There is a competition between the orderly - .and working class population and the disorderly class ? —English workers as well as orderly foreign workers ; but there is a distinct contest going on as to who should' gain the upper hand—the decent workers or the disorderly people. 13079. And the English people are being displaced ? —Yes. 13080. Is that a cause of any discontent and dis- satisfaction in the neighbourhood?—It is a cause of great misery, and, indeed, of great overcrowding. 13081. The population is driven into smaller places ? ---Yes. 13082. There is the same necessity for the Eng- lish population to live in that neighbourhood as for the foreign population?—There is a great necessity, because of its nearness to the West End houses. 13083. They are competed out of their house ac- commodation -by the high rents which are naturally paid by these disorderly premises ?—Yes. 13084. High rents and disorderly houses go hand in hand?—Yes. 13085. And the rents have gone up generally m - the district?—Yes. I may say, as far north as Euston Road,; I last week sought to gain one unfurnished room1 for a poor single woman, and I had to pay "'7s. 6d. a week for one unfurnished' room in that place, • even as far north as just off the Euston Road. 13086. 7s. 6d. a week for one unfurnished room 'I— Yes. 13087. In your statement you have given some figures. You say according to the last Census returns there are 206 less inhabited houses than in 1891, whilst . the population has increased by 1,715 ?—That is in ■ the whole of South St. Pancras. 13088. In Cleveland Street and Fitzroy Square dis- tricts there are 374 less inhabited houses than in 1891, with an increase of 233 in the population,. Have small houses been replaced at all by large model dwellings ? --In very few cases in that immediate district. Of • course, as we get to Somers Town, another part of St. Pancras, there is a housing scheme there in con- nection with the London County Council; but in the ' Cleveland Street district there has not been much 6144. alteration in the way of housing accommodation. ' Of ^Walter?' course, there has been an increase of factories and _ workshops; but there is one feature which is not in Feb. 1903 our district immediately, but which is in the Borough ■ of Marylebone, on the other side of Cleveland Street, where there are houses occupied by the workers in a street which is not absolutely desirable ; large flats have been built there, and I am in a position to say that these flats are used really for disorderly pur- poses. 13089. You say that this West End traffic in vice is mainly organised by foreigners?—That is the opinion of those of us who have been working in ' the West London Mission. 13090. And it demoralises the district and sends ;up the rents?—Yes. 13091. A landlord who does not ask questions gets a larger rent for his rooms and for his houses for these disorderly purposes ?-—Certainly. I may say that, as regards the traffic in social vice in that im- mediate district, and the bold .and open way in which it is carried on by the foreign element, I was interested in the prosecution of a hotel in. Fitzroy Square. It is exceedingly disagreeable work, and very few people will touch this work; but complaints were made At a boys' home, where excellent work is done, that people were brought to this hotel, and couples came in broad daylight, and that the boys were actually found watch- ing the; things that were happening through the win- dows, because they did not even take the trouble to draw the blind down. This was going on in open day- ■ light. Fortunately, the man was brought up, and through pressure on the local council we got an order of imprisonment against him; but unfortunately for him, the man who was convicted died in prison. That shows the callous and open way in which this vice is carried on, and you can well imagine how it would!' demoralise a fine square like Fitzroy Square, with. houses of the very fine character that there are there. 13092. You say it is a very bad thing for the young, and for: the population generally, to have this de- moralising influence going on in the neighbourhood l— Yes. 13093. And you would say that Euston Road is be- coming or has become also- a disgraceful spectacle in this way?—Yes, there is an increase. I have taken the trouble, not only personally to inspect with police- men, and SO1 on, but through sisters who are engaged in rescue work, who all say there is an increase of the foreign element among the- women who walk the streets. 13094. Then you deal in your statement with foreign disorderly clubs, and you give us an extract from a letter you have received from the Town Clerk of St. Pancras on the subject. "Of the premises referred to, six were clubs, the principals of four being foreigners and two English. Without being able to supply spe- cific facts, there is little doubt but what foreigners predominate in carrying on their practices, and that maniy of these men live on the earnings of the women" There is a good deal of that kind of thing, too, is there not—men living on the earnings of women?—Oh, yes,. and notwithstanding the Act to which reference was made this morning as causing an improvement, I believe that there is a large number of men indeed still living on these women's earnings. If anybody will take the trouble to walk up Tottenham Court Road at night, and up the Euston Road, they will see gangs of these men about in communion with and speaking to the women., and urging them on in their trade. Anybody walking up Tottenham Court Road on the east side and down Euston Road will see these bullies about the streets even in the afternoon. Any- body who knows the district at all will know what their business is. 13095. Then the Town Clerk goes on to say: "I may mention that in the case of robberies and assaults which occur at disorderly houses, the great number of the houses are in the occupation of foreigners of a bai type."- That you would agree with ?■—Yes. 13096. The West London Mission operates not only in the Fitzroy Square district, but in Regent Street, Piccadilly, Soho, and Somers Town?—Yes. ' 3 K 2444 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. liey. C. E. 13097. Regent Street, Piccadilly, and Soho are well Walters. known for these characteristic features?—Yes. 26 Feb! 1903. 13098. Then you mention that the Rev. H. H. Lax, — ' who has worked for five years in the Soho district, wrote in the last report of the West London Mission; " The characteristic feat ares of the area ol our opera- tions have become so widely known that probably very few are not aware of the peculiar difficulties and dangers attending it. Let it be remembered that for some years Soho has been growing more and more cosmopolitan, and that with the increase of the aLen element, mostly of the lowest and dangerous' class, there has been a steady decrease in the English popu- lation ; that the infinite network of alleys, courts, and streets bounded by Regent Street, Oxford Street, and Shaftesbury Avenue has of late years become a veri- table Ghetto; so rapidly, indeed, has this transformai- tion taken place that a large block of tenement build- ings which were formerly inhabited by English families is now occupied exclusively by Jews. This being so, it will be readily seen how difficult is the task of reach- ing such people. Far from being open-minded, they are often narrowed by prejudice, racial antipathies, and national hate, for Anglophobia is rarely anywhere so pronounced as in Soho. The vast hordes of human beings surging around our doors are as far as the poles separated from us in religious susceptibilities and habits of thought. It would almost appear that tihey have practically nothing in common with our- selves " ?—That refers to Soho. I cannot personally speak from a great knowledge of Soho, but I only put that, in as coming from a man who has worked in Soho, • 13099. As typical of the foreign1 element residing there ?—Yes. 13100. Then you refer to Sister Faith, who has worked for five and a half years, and she speaks of the great increase of foreign prostitutes, and the utter absence among them of moral sense, 'and then she refers to the different languages, and says she has conversed with French, Germans, Swiss, Austrians, and Belgians in great numbers,, and she also refers to the large number of disorderly houses kept by foreigners; in fact, Sister Faith reports what you have already told us with regard to this traffic in social vice being carried on by foreigners in that part of London, and she, of course, has great experience in these matters?—Ye®. 13101. She was prepared to come here, but I thought- it was not desirable?—Yes. This lady spends three nights a week in Piccadilly and the region round about, and is influencing a class of woman not usually? influenced in connection with rescue work; but her success has not been among foreigners so much a$- amongst English women, and I suppose there is hardly a woman in London who has more knowledge of the people. She has given up her life to the work in: Regent Street and Piccadilly at night time, and that is what she states. 13102. With reference to these bullies, are they mostly foreigners, as well as the women ?—That is our - experience. 13103. Then you suggest certain remedies ?—I only do that in all humility. I know the difficulties. 13104. You say: "All aliens proved in Court to be engaged in the maintenance of brothels and disorderly •houses should be ordered out of this country to their - own country; the police to see they leave our shores " T —I certainly think that if people are proved on con- viction to b© engaged in traffic in social vice they should not be permitted to remain in this country. 13105. Then you further suggest that we might in- sist on the presentation by those wishing to settle here of some document as to their character and means of livelihood ?—Yea, that is so. 13106. Generally speaking, you would sum up your evidence by saying that this incursion of foreigners, into that part of London with which you are acquainted and in which you work is of a very undesirable and demoralising character ?—Yes. 13107. (Chairman.) You suggest—'and we are- obliged to you for any suggestion—as a remedy for this state of thingsi the expatriation of all persons of the* class you mention; I suppose that in your mind would include all undesirable persons, criminals, and alL clearly marked?—Yes. 13108. Has it occurred to you that this expatriation? may be reciprocal, and that if we send out undesirable foreigners abroad, the foreigners abroad may aend back to us our undesirables ?—Yes. 13109. It was a question that cannot be dealt with very lightly ?—'No, my Lord, I see the difficulties, and I hesitated before making my suggestion. But I hardly * think you would find a large number of English people in foreign countries who are engaged in this sort of traffic. 13110. I agree with you that we should probably do better by the exchange. Then, also, we are met with the difficulty that the foreign country may possibly refuse to let them land ?—Yes, my Lord, I quite concede- that. * Mr. Abthur Powys Yaugha^, called ; and Examined. Mr A P 13111. (Sir Kenelm Digty/.) Are you one of His Vaugiian. Majesty's Inspectors in the north of London now ?—Yes. • --13112. How long have you been there P-—Since 1897. 13113. Before that you were in the East End of London ?—Yes. 13114. What does the north of London comprise?— The sanitary district for the City, and Finsbury, Shore- ditch, Holborn, Stoke Newington, Hampstead, St. Pancras, and Islington, and then it contains, of course, a large country district. 13115. Have you a large alien population there in the north of London?—Not as compared with the East End. 13116. But, still, there is a large population?—Fairly large. 13117. Comprising various nationalities?—Various nationalities. 13118. With regard to your own personal experience in the East, you say that is prior to 1897 ?—Yes, from 1893 to 1897 I was in charge of that district. 13119. You are the district inspector?—That is so. 131£0. And subordinate to you there are two junior inspectors?—Three nominally—one is peripatetic. 13121. And three assistant inspectors ?—Yes. 13122. Mr. Evans, who has been called here, is of the olass of assistant inspectors ?—He was one of my assistants when I had charge of the East Metropolitan District. 13123. With regard to the East End, your duties as district inspector do not lead you very much directly into connection with workshops by way of direct inspec- tion, do they ?—No. 13124. The workshops are inspected by the assistant inspectors ?—They were brought in for the express purpose of visiting workshops. 13125. Your knowledge on that subject is derived: chiefly from the reports and general superintendence ?— Yes. (Chairman.) Does this gentleman principally look- after factories as distinguished from workshops? 13126. (Sir Kenelm/ Digby.) General superintend- ence, is it not?—A large number of special inquiries^ have to be made. 13127. (Chairman.) And factories?—Yes, rather more- than workshops. 13128. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Inquiries into accidents,, and so on ?—Yes. 13129. You have not got the personal experience that an assistant inspector has of the conditions?—It is more second-hand. 13130. Taking your report, and going through the points, first of all with regard to the condition of alien workshops, what is your experience on that subject?— From which point of view ? 13131. From the sanitary point of view, to begin with ? —From the sanitary point of via-w, I should say there is not very much to choose between them and English, workshops. As far as I have been able to make out from books which are kept in my office, the percentage of complaints is very small. All these sanitary mattera- are under the local authority, and all that happens i#MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 445 if the inspectors in my district report anything insani- tary, I send that report on to the Medical Officer of Health, and he reports to me in due course as to what action he takes in the matter. That is principally with regard to closet accommodation and sanitation and venti- lation, etc., and overcrowding. The percentage, taking last year, of reports sent to the sanitary authority was about 3 per cent, of the whole number of workshops in my district, which number nearly 9,000. 13132. That is in the north of London ?—Yes. About 3 per cent, of the cases were considered of such a character that they had to be reported to the local auhorities. Then, taking the alien workshops, which are about 1,000 (that is rather rough), the percentage of cases, referred to the local authorities amounted to 224, 28 being with regard to aliens. 13133. (Chairman.) 224 altogether, and 28 as to •lien workshops?—Yes, taking alien workshops at 1,000, which is a rough figure. I could not get out the figures very, easily, but it would amount to very much the same percentage. Something like 3 per cent, with regard to aliens, against something like 3 per cent, with regard to the whole number of workshops. The only thing I should say with regard to that is, that when the condi- tions are bad in these workshops they are very bad.. The worst cases reported to the local authorities pro- bably refer to these workshops. 13134. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Otherwise there is not very much difference ?—-No. There are some cases where they are as clean as anything can be—'pronounced cleanliness ; there is nothing possible to object to. 13135. Have you anything else to say about that, or may we leave that question?—I do not think I have anything more to say. 13136. You wanted to explain something that arose in Mr. Evans' evidence about the difficulty the inspector has in proving that a protected person is working illegal hours?—The evidence he gave with regard to seeing these persons at work through the window ? 13137. Yes?—I think Lord James raised the ques- tion, or said that there seemed nothing in the Act to prevent the prosecution of the man for employing persons in that way, and that I think clearly is so; but it has been the custom in the department, it may be a wrong custom, to be able to produce, and to produce the specific person with regard to whom a charge is made, to substantiate the evidence given in court by the in- spector. Whether that is right I am not sure. 13138. That is rather in accordance with your ex- perience in the courts ?—It is. I have had cases, in one of which Mr. Evans was my witness, where he had entered a workroom and had seen the girls at work, and had taken their names, and yet, when I took the case before Mr. Mead, it was dismissed. I had a very long talk with Mr. Mead afterwards, because the' girls denied that they were at work. They said they were sitting there in the room, and they were doing nothing. Mr. Evans had already asserted that they were at work. 13139. (Chairman.) What proof did Mr. Evans give? Had he seen them working ?—He said he had seen them working. 13140. From outside?—No, from inside. My point with regard to that is, that if that difficulty arises, even when the inspector enters a room and sees the persons with the work in their hands, it would be very much greater evidence than if he merely said he looked at them through the window. 13141. Did Mr. Mead say he would not convict unless the girls were produced?—They were produced. He said there was the evidence of the girl, who swore she was not at work, and the inspector says she was; and he gave her the benefit of the doubt. 13142. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You have to be very care- ful?—Yes. With regard to the cotton mills in Lan- cashire, of which I have great experience, the difficulty was always very great, and the difficulty we had there was to actually find the people at work. We went to a mill and found the mill in full swing at night, with all the machinery running; but unlless we got m in time to find them at work, it was hopeless to take out a summons. 13143. (Chairman.) Mr. Evans' statement was that you could not possibly get a conviction unless you were on the premises, arid it was not enough to see them from the outside. If. you saw them under any circum- stances, you could pi<(ove it ?—If you could take a spe- cific woman, and say so-and-so—if she had red hair, ^ p for instance—and if you could spot her through the Vauahan. window. 13144. You must prove the person who is employed ; ^6 Feb. 1903. you must allege that the employer did employ A, B, and C ?—Yes; I did not want to make anything of that point, but simply to mention it. 13145'. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to wages, what is your experience with regard to the wages for which an alien works when he first arrives in this coiHitry?—I know very little as to the actual wages paid. I know, or I think I know, that an alien on his first arrival will work for very little, and some- times for practically nothing. That is the "greener." 13146. Then, when he has been here a little time, what happens?—He finds his footing, and he finds what others get, and demands better wages, and gets them. 13147. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He goes into Court for them, does he not?—Yes, very often. 13148. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) He is none the less keen than the Englishman in getting good wages, and he succeeds in getting them?—Yes. 13149. You agree as to his working long hours?— Yes. 13150. You say it is doubtful whether a Jew works more in the course of a year than a Gentile ?—In that I was taking into consideration the number of holi- days, and then, although there are all sorts of in- fractions of the Act with regard to Sunday and Saturday employment, there are a large number of Jews who do> not. work on Saturday, because it is their Sabbath, and they do not work on Sunday because the work- shops are not open; therefore they lose two days a week. 13151. (Lord Rothschild.) Therefore they work rather harder on the other days ?—They work harder on the other days. 13152. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They also work the whole of the Monday ?—Yes, they also work the whole of the Monday, which the Englishman very often does not. 13153. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There are cases of Sunday working?—Oh, yes. 13154. To compensate for the loss of the Saturday?' —Yes. (Lord Rothschild.) There are very few of those cases. 13155. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you come across. that at all ? Can you speak from your own experience as to seven days' working ? We have been told there are cases in which, they work seven days ?—Tha only way I approach that subject is from the number of cases reported to me by others. If it occurred in the case of protected labour—women or girls—we should prosecute. I have had none of those recently. 13156. If it happened in the case even of male labour it would be an infraction' of the Factory Act, would it not?—Oh, no; there would be no infraction in working on, Sunday. It would be in this way—* that if a male were to work on Saturday, the work- shop being open for the purpose of work, then the female could not work on Sunday. 13157. Sunday labour is prohibited by the Factory Act, is it not ?—Not for men. They can work all the days. 13158. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is only with regard to women and young persons ?—Yes. 13159. That is what you call protected labour?— Yes. 13160. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What do you say gene- rally is the characteristic of the Jew, as far as his qualities are concerned?—I think he compares very favourably in many ways. He has great determination, and pertinacity, and he certainly compares favourably with regard to both being abstemious and thrifty. 13161. There is a question which was raised by Mr. Evans which was interesting. What db you say about the labour of young people, apprentices or learners? He spoke of the deficiency of native labour in that respect?—Speaking generally, I think there is a diffi- culty felt in almost all the trades in the country in getting apprentices. Speaking of the specific trade in which the alien is employed, I think the London tailor does not care for them. He wants the finished article : he wants the person who has learned his trade, if pos- sible, so far as he can get- him.446 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. A. P. 13162. Does he find that principally the case with m Vaughan. the native?—He finds it easier, I think, with the « t— alien. I think the alien is more inclined to bring up 26 Feb 1903. his own family in the trade than the Englishman is. ~~ An alien either comes over with his family or brings it over afterwards, and he brings up his girls and boys more in the particular trade in which he is en- gaged; 13163. You speak in your statement of the furni- ture trade?—I have more practically to do with that now, because one of the principal centres of the furni- ture trade is in ,my present district, Shoreditch. 13164. What is the position there?—I speak under correction—I am not quite sure that I am right, but I believe I am right—that' they find great difficulty in getting English boys, either as apprentices or learners, and they do get Jewish boys; but very fre- quently, I do not say always, foreign Jewish boys. I believe the Jewish Board of Guardians pay premiums, which encourages the master, whether he be an Eng- lishman or an Jiiien, in taking the Jewish boy. I am not quite certain of my facts with regard to that, but that is what I am informed. 13165. You have in your statement made one or two observations with regard to particular trades. As to the tailoring trade you speak of ladies' tailors ?•—That is very nearly entirely in the hands of foreigners, and it is a very much increased trade. 1J3166. Is that a new industry?—A comparatively new industry. Exactly where it sprang from, whether it was from Paris fashions or not, I do not know; but for some reason—I cannot assign a cause for it—it is entirely in the hands of the foreigners. It is a sort of cross between tailoring and mantle-making, and they come from both trades to it. 13167. Where is that trade carried on principally? —'It is sprinkled about the north of London, in my district. I do not think it is in the East End of Lon- don, or very little, but it is sprinkled! about. There are a certain number all over the City, Ludgate Hill and Aldersgate, and principally they are working for Cheapside and Ludgate Hill houses. 13168. That trade you say is almost entirely in the hands of foreigners ?—Almost entirely. 13169. Then you mention bespoke and slop work; what do you mean by slop work?—I mean by slop work the making of garments, not to order and not to measure, but which are 'bought ready made oat of shops. 13170. That is principally in the hands of the Jews? -^-That is principally in the hands of the Jews. The bespoke trade is/ done by Englishmen as well. 13171. There are some other special trades which , you speak of-—mantle-making, for instance ?—-I have very little.- to say about mantle-imaking. There is one point, rather a new departure, brought in by foreigners, -and that is the applique embroidering for mantles, -and that is done entirely by them. 13172. And furriers?—I have a great many, princi- pally foreigners. With the advance of the foreign element in the fur trade there has been the introduc- tion of a much cheaper sort of fur. There are imita- tions everywhere nowadays, and they are made from Tabbit skins and the cheaper kind of fur. 13173. Is that a trade also in the hands of the foreigner?—Not entirely, but very, very largely; Rus- sians and Poles chiefly. 13174. I do not think you have much to say about boots and shoes ?—I have hardly any shoemakers at present in my district. 13175. Then what have you to say with regard to the furniture trade?—The furniture trade is largely in the hands of the foreigners in Shoreditch and Bethnal Green. 13176. You say increasingly so ?—Yes. 13177. Some branches of it are entirely introduced by foreigners ?■—I think the bamboo furniture is the only thing I know that was practically introduced by them, and is entirely in their hands. I have mentioned some which are left, I do not know the least why, to English- men. A foreigner never makes a towel horse, and he never makes a folding chair, or a coal vase, but I am not certain why towel-horses, night commodes, coal vases, and folding chairs are English. l ean give no reason why that should be so. Arm-chairs are very largely foreign, but not folding chairs. Then, French polish- ing again is done by English women principally in that trade. The foreigner hardly touches it. 13178. Then, with regard to walking sticks?—The production of walking-sticks has enormously increased, and I believe they are much more generally carried. That used to be an English trade, but now it is very largely done by foreigners, including the mounting and the chasing of them. 13179. Then cigars and cigarette making ?—-These are specifically factories. There are some very large places, the smaller ones are rather decreasing in number, but there are some very large ones which .are model fac- tories. The. hours of work are short, and I have not much to say about them. 13180. Then the only other trade is bakers. That trade is a good deal in the hands of the Germans, is it not ?—Yes. 13181. You have some observations at the end of your notes with regard to the displacement of English labour. I daresay you would like those put in as you have written them?—I had almost rather leave it out altogether, be- cause I know so very little, and can add so very little to the knowledge that the Commissioners already have. I merely alluded to it after Mr. Evans' evidence, because there was a good deal said about the displacement, and I thought I could hardly leave the subject entirely alone. 13182. It comes to this, does it not, that you say, " So far as I have been able to form an opinion, I do not think that there has been displacement of English labour, in the sense that English workers have been dis- charged and aliens employed in their place ? The dis- placement is more indirect, and might be stated thus : Whilst the number of English employed in these in- dustries has remained more or less stationary, the num- ber of aliens has largely increased; or, in other words, the labour required to supply the increased demand for commodities has fallen very largely into the hands of aliens. Again, although the production of an inferior qualitv of goods is visible throughout, in clothes, furs, and furniture, it is possible that this may be only an accidental concomitant of alien labour. There is a tendency everywhere to sacrifice quality to quantity; and to be satisfied with, if not to demand, cheap, and therefore very frequently, inferior articles. I only venture to touch upon these features of the present con- dition of things without attempting to* penetrate into their possible connection ? "—That expresses the only view I think I am really competent to form on the sub- ject. I do not feel I ought to attempt to assign causes. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I think that expresses a very clear and intelligible view. , 13183. (Major IEvans-G-ordon.) While we are on this question of displacement, when you refer to the dis- placement of English people, do you include every English Jew workman in England ?—I think so. 13184. You say they have not been displaced?—Not to any large extent. I should not like to say none. 13185. Are you not aware of a considerable movement going on now protesting against their displacement?— I have heard of it. I think it is more in the direction I mentioned. For instance, if an Englishman, or an English Jew, were to go off sick, and unable to attend to his work for a week or two, he would probably find himself replaced in his work by a foreigner before he had the chance of taking it up again. 13186. What we hear of in the East End is large quantities of Jewish working men, who were formerly doing pretty well, but who are: now displaced and out of work, owing to their places having been filled by this cheap labour which has been imported?—I feel a diffi- culty in approaching the subject, because my knowledge of the East End dates back so far that it may have quite changed. 13187. With reference to the fur trade, have you come across the fur trade personally much? Have you been in the places where this cheap fur is dealt with %— Yes, I have a great deal. 13188. In the East End ?—In the East End, a long time ago, but recently in the neighbourhood of -the City I have been in a fair number. 13189. Those are the better class of places ?—Yes. 13190. We have had a very interesting statement handed in to us by a gentleman, who describes theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 447 conditions of working, in the fur trade. Do you endorse that at all ?—I have not heard the description. 13191. It is a description from Mr. Mendelsohn, re- ferring to the fur trade, and I want to know if you know anything about it ?—Do you mean the insanitary conditions ? 13192i The terrible conditions P—The Poles and Russians, to put it plainly, are the dirtiest of all the foreigners who come to this country3 and they are largely engaged in that trade. 13193. With reference to the apprentices, the English- men in the trades are members of Trades Unions, are not they mostly?—Very largely. 13194. And do they dislike the system of apprentices, or is it that they cannot get apprentices?—You are ©peaking of the tailoring trade? 13195. Yes ?—I think botfr. 13196. They dislike them, and cannot get them?—I think they would rather not have them. They would rather have people whom they have not the trouble of teaching. 13197. Therefore, taking these foreigners who join this industry, do they become members of the unions?-— Eventually, probably. 13198. The foreigners do; have apprentices?—Not to any large extent. 13199. I think it was Mr. Evans who told us a .serious feature was that the foreigners had apprentices, and it was a constant practice for them to have apprentices in their trade, but the English did not have them?—I speak with some diffidence about that, but I should say no. I should say my view would be that apprentices generally are, I will not say dying out, but are more and more difficult to get. 13200. How is the young recruit for the tailoring trade taught then?—I do not know. With regard to these greeners, they are not apprentices, but they are learners. 13201. As opposed to apprentices?—Yes. 13202. But how about his children that he brings up in his own family ?—They would not be apprentices, but still they are taught a trade. 13203. That is a distinction without a difference ?— Yes. 13204. They get their young recruits in the trade, or the learners?—Yes, more readily than the English. (Chairman.) Is it held by anybody to be objection- able that there should be apprentices ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand, to my astonish- ment, that the. English trades unions either object to them, or cannot get them. Then we have this fact, that they are allowing the foreigner to come into their trades unions, and he is a man who does have what I call apprentices, but what the witness calls learners. (Chairman.) Is that put forward as a grievance by anybody ? (Major Evans^Gordon.) Not at all, but it is a curious thing that the English trades unions, should allow them- selves to be extinguished in this way, because eventually as the learners 'become more and more numerous in the foreign families, English men will get displaced. (Chairman,) But there are a tremendous number of trades, such as shipbuilding and boiler-making and rivetting, in which the same objection as to apprentices has shown itself, and where the foreigner does not en- croach for a moment. '13205. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The foreigners come into a trade here with the apprentices?—-Yes, un- doubtedly. 13206. (Mr. Vallance.) You say, in your notes, that the aliens have not introduced any new industry in the .same way that the Huguenots have introduced silk weaving?—Yes. 13207. That would imply that there has been a con- siderable displacement of labour, would it not?—Inas- much as they come into industries which alreadt existed? 13208. Yes?—That would possibly he so. I do not know that it would follow of necessity. Those trades in which they have engaged have expanded enor- mously, and it might be that the English labour in- creased. at the same time as the foreign labour in- creased in the expanded trade—Expanded in the sense that there are more clothes made to-day than there Mr. A. P. were before years ago in this country ; there are more Vaughan. tailors' workshops. -- 13209. The trade would have expanded with the ex- ^ Feb. 1903. pansion of English population?—By the demand of the expanded population. 13210. Is it not the fact that mantle making was originally a German industry, and is now an English industry?—Do you mean it was done by Germans in this country? 13211. No ; Germans employed in their own country and the goods imported into England?—Yes. 13212. That would be a new industry, requiring increased labour, would it not?—Yes. 13213. And', with regard to the cheaper class, of clothing, is it within your knowledge that that was originally imported from abroad?—No, I do not think it is. I do not feel that I can speak about that. 13214. At all events, if there has been displace- ment of labour it has not been within your observa- tion that it has caused any special distress or want of employment on the part of English .labourers ?— I should hardly say that; I do not think I should say that. 13215. (Chairman.) What do you say?—It seems to me outside my province really to speak on that point* I think I cannot go further than what I have at- tempted to say in these notes. There has been, as everyone knows, an amount of distress in the country, • and numbers of people are walking about doing no- thing. I daresay, in a very large measure, it is their fault; but you do, at the same time, find these foreigners doing work which they might possibly have been doing ; but whether they would have been doing it I do not know. 13216. (Mr. Vallance.) My point rather is this: Are there .in the trades which are largely filled, or mainly, by these aliens a large number of English unemployed ; taking the tailoring trade, the mantle making trade, and the shoe making trade, and so forth?—Yes, I think so. The word " large " is vague ; but I think there is a very considerable number. 13217. (Chairman.) Are there not unemployed peo- ple in all trades now?—Yes. 13218. Whether the alien is here or not?—Oh, yes. 13219: You have said that the whole of the trade of embroidery of mantles i.s in the hands of foreigners? —Yes. 13220. And the cheap fur trade, is that also almost entirely in the hands of foreigners?—Almost en- tirely... 13221. Was the embroidery of mantles trade a trade carried on at one time by natives here, and' were they displaced?—No ; I think on the contrary,. it is rather a, new introduction. 13222. Then these aliens have introduced that em- broidery trade ?—Yes. 13223. I suppose it is rather a cheap class of trade? —Some of it is not, some of it is rather good, but not so good as what they do in France. 13224. Taking the introduction of that new trade of embroidery on mantles, do you regard that as a benefit to the community, or detrimental to them? —Do you mean the community at large? 13225. Including the consumer. Whom has it hurt ? Who has suffered ?—I do not think it has hurt- any- body ; but I do not know. 13226. Surely the very fact of being able to obtain a commodity which the public want, and which they can get at a cheap price, must be beneficial, and not detrimental?—I should think it is. 13227. This cheap fur trade is principally rabbit skins, I suppose?—A good deal, and cats' skins. 13228. The cheap fur trade is rather new, is it not?—Yes, that is new. Fur is so much more worn now, and there is a much greater demand for it, and people will take imitations. 1322,9. They, are getting these cheap rabbit skins, which you may call imitations if you like, much cheaper than they used to get the old' furs ?—Yes. 13230. Do they get the same amount of warmth ? —I am not qualified to speak about that. 13231. They are getting warmth—I will not say they get the exact amount?—They get * warmth.418 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIKN IMMIGRATION : 26 Feb. 1903. Mr. A. P. 13232. Which, if they could not have got at the ; Vaughan. cheap rate they would not have got at all ?—No. 13233. Is not that a benefit to the person who has an opportunity of obtaining that cheap fur?—I sup- pose it is. 13234. Who has been injured by it?—I think there is an injury done to the superior fur makers by the competition, but I do not know that the public are injured. 13235. I have no doubt the person who gets the dearer article gets a greater benefit and greater pro- fit ; but when the public generally can obtain the same degree of warmth at a cheaper price surely that is beneficial to the consumer?—Yes. 13236. That you say has been done by the aliens ? —Yes. 13237. (Major Evans-Gordon.) One question about these boys. They are apprenticed by the Jewish Board of Guardians to these trades, and they pay a premium for them ?—So I understand. 13238. They look after those boys after they are apprenticed, do they not?—Yes, in the trades. Mr. J. L. Burton, called ; and Examined. Mr. J. L. 13230. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you the acting burton. editor of the " Shoe and Leather Record " ?—Yes. 13240. You can give us some information with re- gard to bankruptcies which have been complained of as continually occurring among the foreign and Jewish population ?—Yes. 13241. First you deal with cases in which there is a strong presumption of fraud, the circumstances of which lead to the conclusion that the insolvency is not accidental or due to misfortune, but has been deliberately planned and led up to.^ Will you tell us what you know about that?—I think, before I go into the list of cases which I have prepared, which occurred in the year 1901 and in the year 1902, per- haps I had better refer to a case which has come to light this week. I think the principal features which I point out in my statement are all very well exemplified in this particular case. It will show the kind of thing I mean, and then I will give you the figures as to the number of failures of a similar kind which have occurred during the last two years. 13242. (Chairman.) Is this some typical case?—It is. 13243. Just state generally the nature of it?—The • debtor is a boot manufacturer, who has traded at an address in Hackney Road for some years, and until quite recently he had always met his engagements. 13244. Is he an alien, or an Englishman?—An alien. 13245. Does that appear?—He is an alien. 13246. (Lord Rothschild.) You mean to say he is a Jew?—Yes. 13247. That is not an alien?—-He is not a native Englishman. 13248. (Chcdrmam-.) Does that fact appear?—We do not report it in that way. 13249. Why do you say he is not a native English- man—because it looks like a Jewish name? I am informed he is not by a number of people who know him. Until quite recently he met his engage- ments and was solvent, and was regarded as a solvent and honest man. On Monday this week his credi- tors were called to attend a meeting', at which a statement of affairs was put before them, which showed that his gross liabilities were £4,192, and! the assets were valued at £810 ; the deficiency there shown is £3,409, and this is how the debtor, through his solicitor, explained his deficiency. There are a dozen or fourteen items here, and perhaps I had better read them. The first is " Loss on bad skins and waste in -cutting, £100." (Chairman.) What is the object of this? (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not think we want the details. (Chairman.) There have been thousands of bank- ruptcies, and you can pick out many Englishmen and foreigners who have had bad bankruptcies. 13250. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The object is I under- stand, generally to show that great numbers among the foreign shoemakers who come over here commit these fraudulent bankruptcies deliberately; is that so?— iMany. 13251. That is a thing that is widely complained of in the trade?-—It is very widely complained of. 13252. They come over here, run up credit, and then go smash?—Yes. 13253. This is a typical case that you are mention- ing?—Yes. 13254. What was the leading feature of that case, without going into all the details?—It is, perhaps, unnecessary to read all these items, but what I want to show is that many of these items are by way of explanation which nobody is likely to believe, and there is no evidence to show whether the explanation is true or not. 13255. There were no books kept ?—Whether the man kept books previously I do not know; I believe he did; but he now says there are no books, and there are no means by which the creditors, or the trustee on their behalf, or the bankruptcy officials, can trace whether this account of his deficiency is true or not. In the absence of books a man may make this explana- tion, and you cannot test whether it is accurate or not. 13256. And that is a thing which is peculiar to these people much more than to English people ?—I do not say1 it never happens in the case of an English debtor, because it does. 13257. (Chairman.) If you did, I am afraid we should not accept it?—It is much more frequent in the case of alien boot manufacturers. 13258. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What you allege, and what is alleged in the trade generally, is that these people deliberately go bankrupt, and there are a large number of them ?—In many cases I believe they do. 13259. It is complained of, at all events, very much in the trade?—It is complained of very widely. 13260. Could you sum up some of the figures with- out entering into any details as to the cases?—In the year 1901 there were 15 failures in the East End of London of alien boot manufacturers. The gross lia- bilities in the 15 cases were £36,878, and the assets £10,133. 13261. Have you got the figures for 1902 ?—Perhaps I had better tell you how many Gentile firms in the same year, and in the same class of business, failed. 13262. What is the comparison ? What is the num- ber of Gentile firms and foreign firms ?—There were II Gentile firms that failed in the same year, with liabilities of £12,709, and assets £5,866. 13263. (Chairman.) Do you use the word "Gentile" there as the opposite of "alien"? Does it mean native-born ?—A man who is native-born. 13264.. When you say " Gentile," is not that in oppo- sition to the Jew?—Yes. 13265. These are Christians ?—I suppose they are. 13266. Then the other side of the account would in- clude English Jews as well as aliens ?—Yes. 13267. Do you call a Jew an alien ?—Not always. 13268. The Gentiles exclude the Jew. In which ■category do you put the English Jew who becomes bankrupt ?—I would call him an alien if he was in the second generation; if his father came from a foreign country to England I would call him an alien. 13269. Take an English Jew, nothing to do with the foreigners; which category do you put him in, alien or Gentile?—I think he would be in the alien cate- gory. 13270. The alien class you have given as 15 in- cludes the British Jew ?—Yes. 13271. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have you any ground for saying that these cases you have referred to are aliens as we understand them—that is, not British subjects?—I daresay they are naturalised British sub- jects; but most of the .15, if not all, I could not sayMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 449 that each, one is, but most of them are foreign-born people. 13272. They coone over here to play this bankruptcy game?—I do not say they come over with that inten- tion ; I would not allege that; but the point I wanted to bring out in this matter was that in the cases I have mentioned the assets in the Jewish cases showed about 5s. 6d. in the £, while in the native cases they showed 10s. in the £, and that proportion is main- tained in the figures for the following year, that is last year. There are not quite so many cases, and the cases were not of such a serious nature, but still the proportion was somewhat similar. The assets in cases of .aliens in 1902 showed 4s. 2d. in the £ on. the lia- bilities, as against lis. in the £ in the cases of failures of native Englishmen in the shoe trade in the East End of London. (Chairman.) I am sure I hope we have shown we do not want to stop anything, but this is getting very ninal! and minute. I do not think it will affect our judgment on any point. 13273. (Major Evans-Gordon.) To sum up what you have to, say, you -allege that there is a large number of these bankruptcies in your particular business, and that is complained of in your trade?—It is. 13274. (Lord BothscMd.) Are there more alien manu- facturers in that district than English manufacturers? Mr. J. L. —I think there are now. Burton. 13275. You do not know that there are many more ? ^ —I think there are many more now. 3.3276. Therefore, if there are many more, the pro- portion of failures ought to be much greater?—Per- haps so. 13277. (Chairman.) The whole point you make is not that there are more of the aliens bankrupt; but however that may be, that in their bankruptcy they had less assets in the £ than the Christians ?—Yes, and that they do not explain the deficiency. 13278. It is less assets really ?—Yes. 13279. Do you wish to proceed, and say, there being less assets, they do not sufficiently, in your judgment, explain how it is they become bankrupt?1—In the judgment of anyone. 13280. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you think there are defects in the bankruptcy law which give these people een principally displaced by business places. 13306. And large warehouses ?—Not necessarily large warehouses, but by business premises. 13307. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You get considerably more people into fewer houses ?—Yes, so' that the over- crowding is increasing, although it does not appear so, strangely enough, in the census. That is the remark- able fact. 13308. (Sir Kenelm I)igby.) It does not appear in the census because this particular district is not separated ? —Yes. she had a miscarriage. The May Laws. The laws obliging the J ews to live within so vast an area as the Pale would be no intolerable hardship if the whole of the territory were open to them. But. this is not the case. Under the oppressive "May Laws" of 1882 only those who could prove right of residence in the small towns and villages prior to that year were allowed to live in the country. All the remainder were driven into the towns. It; is this enactment which is the causa causans of a great deal of the misery and poverty from which the Jews suffer. Some idea of its results may be gained from the fact that in 18 months after it- was passed the Jewish population of the town of Tschernigov rose from 5,000 to 20,000 souls, so that four people had to find a living where previously it was. difficult enough for one to earn bread. It is obvious that this confinement to the towns, must lead to the overcrowding not only of the houses, but of all employments, and here again the Russian, law steps in to make the lot of the Jew as burdensome as possible. No sort of employment paid directly or in- directly by the State is open to a Jew. He can obtain no work from the municipality of the town in which he resides. The Government endeavour as; far as possible to prevent Jews from obtaining any work over which it has control. Thus, if a concession for a tram-line is granted, a specific provision is made that no Jew is to be employed either in its construction or working; and they are rigidly excluded from being porters on the rail- ways or waiters at railway restaurants.. In the neighbourhood of the town of Pin.sk, which I visited, there exists a large railway carriage factory, in which 5,000 or 6,000 hands are employed. Among the Jewish inhabitants of the place are many capable car- penters, wood-workers, and locksmiths., but it is ex- pressly laid down that no> Jew is to be given work in the railway yard, and labour has to be actually im- ported .from all parts of Russia to do work which could be as well, probably a great deal better, done by the people of the locality. But then they are Jews. The cumulative effect of all these restrictions is an overwhelming competition to obtain a living from the few employments which are left open. There is little work to be done, and vast numbers of people to do it. The margin between life and starvation is so narrow that the least disturbance, or crisis 'becomes a disaster and leads inevitably to increased emigration.MTNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 453 Jews as Merchants and Traders. It is not to> be supposed, however, that all Jews in IRussia are poor and persecuted. Numbers -of them have done, and are doing, extremely well. The professions •of merchant and trader, are open to them, and they have taken full advantage of the opportunities thus provided. Whenever there is anything to be bought or sold you will be certain to find the Jew as an intermediary. He is clever and indefatigable, but perhaps not overbur- dened with scruples. In this respect he would probably not differ from his Russian or foreign competitor. But no doubt he will drive a hard bargain, as the Russian peasant, has found to his cost. This characteristic iB invariably used against him. Personally I do. not at- tach much importance to itw I apprehend that the .principle which governs most business transactions is to buy as ©heap and to sell as dear as you can; and if the Jeiw dealer purchases as cheaply as possible from the Russian peasant, I do not suppose that a trader of a,ny other nationality would be inclined to give a higher price if he could avoid doing so. I am informed that Russian dealers and merchants are themselves not in- spired by any exalted sense of commercial honour, and that to be a miccessful merchant in Russia implies a •complete knowledge of the tricks of the trade. If the -Jewish merchant proves himself, as he often, does, more capable and better equipped in the technique of his profession, it is merely as much as to say that he is the "better man of the two. Be this as it may, the Jews •take a very prominent place in Russian commercial life. In Libau, for instance, the important export trade is almost entirely conducted by them, and here, as else- where, an, elaborate and well-organised system exists for the purchase of produce in the country. It is this organisation which gives rise to the charge so con- stantly preferred against the Jews that they are the ^exploiters of the peasantry; but, on the other hand, were the Jews, not there, the peasants would, in my opinion, either be equally exploited by the business capacity of some other nationality, or there would be no Tea.dy market for the produce of the country. And this is the case, because in the interior of Russia, where no Jew is allowed to live, and where the foreign trader has not penetrated, business is comparatively stagnant, and the peasantry have no market for their produce. It seems obvious that it. is better that the "peasants should sell below the market value than tha^ they should not be able to sell 'at all; and the contrast between towns in which Jews are allowed to live and those places where they are not permitted to reside is> most remarkable. In the former there is always an active movement of business. In the latter the place seems to be devoid of life. In Libau I was told that were it not for the Jews there would be no business doing in the town at all, but while in this way a large number of Jewish people live in material comfort, and prosperity, many of them making large fortunes and others a competence, the lives even of such people are far from pleasant under the Russian Government. There is a constant feeling of bitterness which arises from the inequality of treatment'. To a well-to-do man in, a good position, respected in the town in which he lives, it is hard to have to ask permission to go for a few days to> St. Petersburg or elsewhere, and to have that permission grudgingly given to him, and it is galling toi find himself and his children placed in a. position of inferiority, vis-a-vis, to all his fellow subjects of a similar class. Military Service. One of the allegations made against the Jews is that they are unwilling to take their share of military ser- vice. I was, however, informed by the Rabbi of Kovno and by Dr. Kanto of Libau, that the statistics show that in proportion to their numbers a larger percentage •of Jews serve in the army than of their Christian fellow- subjects. I believe this statement can be fully sub- stantiated. But even ,if it be a fact that the Jews evade their military obligations, when the treatment they receive is taken into consideration no one can be surprised that they should do so. A Jew enlisted in Western Russia would have to1 do his military ser- vice in some part of the empire remote from his home. 'Having completed hie period of five years with the colours in the Caucasus or Siberia, he is not allowed to remain therer a single day after his time is up, but is sent back to the Pale to swell the ranks of the un- employed. Soldiers -serving for several years in a district make friends there, and would, if allowed to remain, 'be able to earn a livinqv but though as soldiers they are considered St to reside in any part of the country, as Jews they are not. Moreover, a Jew has no prospect Major IV. E. of a career or promotion even to the non-commissioned Evans- ranks in the army, and under such circumstances it is GordonyM.v, not surprising if military service is not popular with-- him. 26 Feb. 1903. Tiie Kovno Rabbi quoted to me an instance which occurred in his own experience. A Jewish locksmith in Mithau, who was doing a good business., and as an artisan was entitled to live in that town, was called away to serve in the Turkish War. He was severely wounded, and lost the use of his right arm. At the conclusion of the campaign he came back to Mithau, and, being unable to pursue his original occupation, made a living as a rag merchant. The police, however, came down upon him as being a Jew no longer an artisan, and consequently without the right to live out- side the Pale. A strong effort was made to obtain ex- emption from the law for him in consideration of the services he had rendered his country, but it was of no avail, and he was compelled to. leave the place. Education. It is an obvious inference that oppressive measures, And the bad conditions in' which the Jews live as the result of them, in great measure account for the emigra- tion movement. But another cause is at work, which is so important in relation to Jewish character and feeling that it is necessary to refer to it at some length. This is the question of education. The intense c>sdre of Jewish people to give their children a good education is well known, and it is hard to conceive the feelings of a Jewish parent when it is a matter of the utmost difficulty to get his son into an ordinary gymnasium or Realschule. I will mention the case of one gentleman whose acquaintance I made in Libau—the largest ratepayer in the town, and a man who had been personally selected by the Governor to serve on the Municipal Council. When his son was ready to enter a gymnasium only one vacancy existed, and 100 Jewish children were applying for it. After a searching examination five were selected, and my friend's son, though he came out at the top, was ignominiously re- fused admission to the school. The following year the boy was, as a great favour, accepted in the Realschule. When this became known the parents received the con- gratulations of all their friends precisely as if some great and unexpected piece of good fortune had befallen them. Of all the questions one hears discussed in Russia, this one of education is the most burning. It has a very material bearing upon the subject of this paper. I have come across many instances of Jewish working-men who were earning a goodJ living, and who admitted to me that they were in comf ortable circumstances, but they expressed their determination to emigrate as soon as op- portunity offered. They said that, although they were comfortable enough, and comparatively content, they could not bear to deprive their children of education, or to expose them to all the uncertainties and hardships which a Russian Jew must face. Consequently, though the greater part of the emigrants come from that re- siduum of the population for whom there is literally no- thing to do, and who- from day to day are uncertain whether they can earn sufficient to keep them alive or not, still the emigrants are further recruited from such people as I have referred to, whose life is centred in the future of their children, and who, for their sake, migrate to other countries in order that their offspring may be both educated and free. In the matter of education the Jewish community makes every possible endeavour to supply what the Government refuses to grant. In every town schools built and entirely supported by the Jewish community exist. To begin with, there are the Chedrim, small private schools kept by some old Jew learned in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Talmud. Where possible, provision is made for the superior grades of instruction—secondary, technical, and higher. But though the community do what they can do for the education of their children, they would do- a great deal more if the Government were to give them any en- couragement. If, however, it is wished to establish a new school, great difficulties are thrown in the way and permission can never be obtained without a struggle. It is never granted without the proviso that the Government is to have control over what is taught and over the books that are used. Where the schools do exist, they are extremely efficient and well managed.. The technical schools in St. Petersbiir^, in Vilna, in Pinsk, in Warsaw, in Lodz, which I visited, would, I believe, compare favourably454 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Ifajor TV. E. with, any institutions of the kind in other parts of ; Evans- Europe. Every kind of handicraft is taught, from the Gordon, m.p. making of artificial flowers to the manufacture of a — steam engine. 16 Feb. 1903. These institutions are always filled up with orders for furnishing and decorating houses and supplying a great variety of articles to merchants and shopkeepers. They Lave an important bearing upon the question of emigration ; for, as I have above stated, skilled artizans can obtain the right to live in any part of Russia, and it is hoped that the boys who pass through these various ■dhools will settle in the land of their birth. Un- doubtedly there is an unlimited field for artizans in every part of Russia, and Monsieur de Witte, in the development of his industrial policy, has ready to his hand, if he will only use it, a large and highly intelli- gent population, who are Russian subjects and who, as workers in every branch of industry, are generally superior to the Christian population. The number of Jewish children who receive this higher education is, however, in proportion to the popu- lation very smalil, and there is, I am afraid, a desire among the pupils of the technical colleges to take their skill and ability into other markets. The reason for this is no doubt partly the better wages that they can obtain abroad, but largely tho iuterbr position which the Jews in Russia occupy vis a vis to other classes. Agricultural colleges have also recently been founded. There are considerable institutions of this kind at Minsk, at Pinsk, in the neighbourhood of Warsaw and other placets, where the boys are taught everything that hais to do with the cultivation and management of land. Negotiations are in progress with the Russian Govern- ment which have for their obj ect the extension to these agricultural scholars of the same privileges enjoyed by skilled artizans, namely, the right to live outside the Pale. They have not, I believe, as yet been granted, but if they .should be another outlet for the Jewish population would be provided. Jewish Labour. In the towns of the Pale one finds every kind of manual labour conducted by the Jews. In Vilna and Kovno, Grodno, Pinsk, and other places I visited ther are practically no Christian labourers'. Even those occupations for which, according to Western ideas, the Jew is unfitted, such as all classes of building work, blacksmith's and locksmith's work, the paving of the streets, etc., are one and all entirely performed by Jews. But here again the forced crowding together in the towns renders the competition am ong them even in these occu- pations terribly severe. W© have seen that the Jewish communities bestow great care upon the education of the children. As a result of this, a considerable amount of intelligent Jewish .labour is available in Russia, anid will increase in quantity. In certain directions efforts have been and are being made to utilise this mass of labour in manufactories. The town of Pinsk has been turned into a manufac- turing centre in this way. It has 18 factories, large and small, employing some 4,000 hands, men, women, and children, all Jews. The beneficent effect of this indus- trial development upon the people can be easily under- stood, but even here the action of the Government tends to discourage such enterprises. The factory laws in Russia are extremely strict,„■ and the factory inspectors seem to make use of them in order to harass the Jewish employer as much as possible. One instance occurred while I was in the town. In one of the factories a girl had been fined 10 kopecks— about twopence1—for some irregularity. The inspector heard of this, called up the manager who inflicted the fine, and in the presence of all the workpeople severely reprimanded him and fined him a rouble. Under these circumstances it is, of course, difficult to maintain dis- cipline. Throughout my travels in Russia I was unable to dis- cover any ill-feeling between the Christian peasantry and the Jewish population—competent Jewish and Gentile authorities confirm the view that there is none —and I am of opinion that the Jews supply an elemelnit which is, on the whole, a benefit to the peasantry in Russia. It is, as I have said, through the Jew that the cultivator finds a market for his produce. The exist- ence of this market encourages him to produce more than he otherwise would. I believe it is a fact that famine and scarcity, so pre- valent in many parts of Russia, are practically unknown urithin the limits of the Jewish Pale, although the soil in the latter is of a far poorer quality. Until quite recently the business of spirit manufac- ture and sale was entirely in the hands of the Jews,, and it was alleged that they poisoned the peasantry with bad liquor and encouraged them to excessive drink- ing.. The Government has now constituted the liquor- trade a State monopoly, and the evil complained of has. been removed. The effect, however, has been that some- 500,000 Jewish people have been thrown out of employ- ment. St. Petersburg. I will now attempt to describe in some detail the; impressions I formed in the various places I visited in the course of my journey. The Jewish community in* St. Petersburg presents no special features. They are for the most part rich or well-to-do. There are, off course, poor people among them, but the poverty is in no way abnormal, and is not comparable to the poverty among the Christian population. I visited the poor,, both Christian and Jew, in their homes, and the con- dition of the latter was certainly the better. Here, as elsewhere, the poor Jews are well cared for by their own community. The principal synaga,gue and Jewish school form a large and handsome block of buildings. In the school' 429 boys and girls, mostly children of poor parents^ receive free of all charge an excellent education—ele- mentary, middle, and technical. The class-rooms are lefty, well lighted, and scrupulously clean, and the whole establishment is kept in perfect order. The workrooms for the elder girls presented a charming sight, and I have nowhere seen a healthier and happier lot of children All the pupils get a first-rate mid-day meal with tea or milk at other times. The artistic- and mechanical work done in the technical branch is admirable, and there is a steady output of capable work- men who have full rights to live in any part of Russia. Dvinsk. I next visited Dvinsk in the province of Minsk,, within the Jewish Pale. The station is two miles from the town, and the drive to Dvinsk gave me a first idea of what Russian country roads are—heart-breaking cobbles varied by patches of" unfathomable black mud. On either side were mourn- ful wooden houses and shanties, mouldy and crumbling ; apparently they were only inhabited by a few dejected women and children and pigs. The inn, kept by a Jew, seemed fairly clean, but one encountered an ominous,, oily smell, the smell of the slums of Bombay or Calcutta', which Anglo-Indians will remember. The sanitary ar- rangements are better imagined than described. It was Saturday, and evidence of the preponderance of the Jewish population at once presented itself. Not a single shop was open except an occasional tobacconist's. The Jewish Sabbath puts the whole trade of the place to sleep. The atmosphere was that of a very quiet country town on Sunday in England. On the Christian Sunday no shops may be opened till 1 p.m., and thus the Russian Government, while allow- ing the Jews full enjoyment of their Sabbath, takes care that Sunday is respected at all events during the hours of morning worship. Large crowds of respectably- dressed Jews were promenading in front of the syna- gogue. A police officer with whom I had some con- versation told me that the Jewish people had the upper hand here, and that the entire trade of the place was in their possession. A new chief of the police had recently come to the town. He had tried to introduce reforms, such as the closing of disorderly houes, gambling hells, etc.? but he found it an impossible task and soon aban- doned it. The police force is only some 200 for the 80,000 inhabitants, fully three-fourths of whom are of the Hebrew race. The disorderly houses and gambling dens are kept by Jews. A year or two ago, when the Government created the monopoly in the sale of spirits, and the vodka houses: had to be closed, the Jewish people made a great dis- turbance. At that time every other house was a drink- ing den. This the Government monopoly has stopped, though it is thought that there is a considerable illicit still business. Great complaint is made about the number of Jews thrown out of employment by the State monopoly, and doubtless with reason.. The place does not give the impression that it contains 80,000 inhabitants. It is, for its size, the most back- ward town I have ever seen. There are no tram lines and very few public conveyances, and those of a miser- able kind. The streets are lighted1 by wretched oil lamps. There are- no public building® of any size.. Th@MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 455 ^dwellings are crumbling and squalid, but one could not my that the housing conditions were abnormally bad. They are certainly superior to those which prevail in .many parts of London. There is a considerable emigration from Dvinsk. Be- tween 50 and 60 Jewish people had left the .place the week before I was there. These for the most part go by way of Libau, and have to provide themselves with ^passports. I spoke to several who intended to go to England, and they told me that their motive was the hope of doing better business there. On Sunday I f ound that the law closing the shops till ^ne o'clock was partially disregarded. A considerable number were open before that hour, but the businessi of the town was not in full swing till later. The markets then became very busy. The town was crowded with ^soldiers chaffering and bargaining with the Jews. A peculiar feature was that the soldiers were for the most .part sellers and the Jews buyers. Old boots, uniforms, -strips of cloth embroidered with Russian needlework, and many other odds and ends were the goods, which the men offered. The labourers, carters, and carriers are Jews. The •markets are surrounded by disorderly houses. I saw the soldiers being dragged and decayed into these T>laoe$. In •a town of this kind, with a large Jewish population, and without manufactories, there are of course a great number of people who have no regular means of subsist *ence, and who are best described by the German word Luftmenschen (wastrels, drifters). These, no doubt, are often driven by circumstances into vundesirable courses and occupations. The immorality which prevails in towns like Dvinsk may, I think, in ?large part be accounted for in this way. People are born -and have to live. As the struggle for life becomes keener, scruples disappear. Be that as it may, it is ^unquestionable that sexual immorality is prevalent in ithese overcrowded towns in the Pale, and the procuring of very young girls is quite a common incident. And at is from the lower strata that a considerable propor- tion of the emigrants come. Of course, such tendencies reappear among them in the East End of London. Riga. From Dvinsk I turned northward to Riga. The journey takes one through the Province of Kurland, a rich, well- ♦ cultivated country. The inhabitants are for the most .part Letts. They are Lutheran Protestants, and excel- lent agriculturists. The exclusively Jewish population •of the city, gave place to healthy and robust country folk, but groups of Jews were to be met with at most vof the stations,, and from the railway line they could be iseen wandering about in twos and threes through the country where they gjo to buy horses, agricultural produce, timber, etc., either for themselves1 or acting as agents for firms in Riga. Riga is Essentially German in character rather than Russian.' With regard to the Jewish population, of whom the Census of 1897 shows there are 70,000 the conditions are very much the same as those I have described as prevailing in St. Petersburg. The town, as are the three Baltic Provinces, Kurland, Livonia, and Esthonia, is outside the limits of the Pale, and only Jews «of certain categories are allowed to reside there, namely: (a) So-called Riga Hebrews, or the descendants of old residents. There are about 7,000 of these. (b) Those who obtained the right of residence by a law which wasi passed in 1893. They had to . prove '• that they had settled in Riga before 1880. They • number about 8,000. (c) Those who, according to the general laws of , .the Empire, have the right of residence, i.e., artisans, the old Nicolai soldiers and their desicend- • ^ts, merchants of the first guild, students in the high .sbhools—about 12,000. In certain streets of the town no Jew is allowed to .reside. No Jew from outside can obtain citizenship in Riga, and those visiting the place on business, are only permitted to remain in the city from sunrise to sunset, but special permission can be obtained for a short exten- sion of this time. These laws, are strictly enforced. The ' Jewish community in Riga has two schools for 'boys and one for girls, in which there are some 800 children, and a few other afternoon and evening classes. These are exclusively provided for the poorer members of the community. The number of Jewish children m- reiving education in the Christian schools is said to- be abotrt 1,000, or V :per cent. <:©f the total. The conse- quence is that a large number of Jewish children receive Major W. E. but very slight education, and ar e put to wor k at an Evans- early age. It is no uncommon thing to see lads of 12 to Gordon, M.P. 14 working as journeymen painters;, tinworkers, tailor®, - shoemakers, etc., but it is said that nearly every Jewish 26 Feb. 1903. child knows how to draw up a bill of exchange or promissory note, the forms of these and other similar documents being given as writing lessons in place of the usual text. Of the 309 doctors in Riga, 73 are Jews. Among lawyers there are about 7 per cent, to 10 per cent., but recent legislation has stopped this outlet for Jewish energy and ability, as no J ewish lawyer is. now allowed to practise in the courts. Of the 353 first guild mei*- chants in Riga 76 are Jews. Of the 1,155 second guild merchants 366 are Jews. But larger percentages are to be found among the third and fourth class of trader^ In recent years the Jews have pushed themselves more and more to the front in the commercial life of the town. The trade in the agricultural produce of the country is largely in their hands. The principal grain merchants and exporters may be Christians, but the middlemen and agentsi are almost exclusively Jews. They have an elaborate organisation throughout the Empire, and they Know within a fraction how the produce of the country stands, whether it be timber, grain, flax, cattle, horses^ oggs, or anything else. The means they adopt for transmitting information are typical. One, recently discovered, was the marking of hieroglyphics in chalk on some part of an outgoing train. This cypher gave the market price or other1 tip to a friend or agent stationed at a. distance. He had merely to walk on to the platform when the train came in in order to get all the information he required. In the neighbourhood of Riga a large wood trade is carried on. The law of Russia prevents a Jew from' acquiring land, and this law is strictly enforced and cannot be evaded. But the wood on the land can be bought apart from the land itself, and Jewish merchants purchase largely in this way. I am not at all sure that the law restricting the number of Jews in towns like Riga is entirely disadvantageous to those who are allowed to reside there. It seems natural to infer that the com- petition between them is less severe, that the businesses remain in fewer hands, and that fewer demands, are made upon the J ewish community for charitable relief. In the time of Alexander II. the regulations, respecting the area in which J ews were permitted to live were no+ strictly enforced, and large numbers settled outside the boundaries of the Pale. Riga was one of the places so affected, and in the year 1880 a ministerial circular sanctioned what had taken place, but in 1882 the May laws were promulgated, and the expulsion of the Jews then began. Great distress resulted, and in 1893, to save many from absolute ruin, a law was passed to the effect that those Jews who up to the year 1880 had resided,_ even illegally,, in any part of the three' Baltic Provinces might remain there. In other parts of Russia, however, special permission of the Ministry of the In- terior, on the recommendation of the local Governor, was required in each individual case. There seems to be a very small amount of emigration from the port of Riga itself. The emigration from the northern provinces of the Pale proceeds via ETibau, to which place I went in order to study the conditions on the spot. Libau. The town has a population of some 80,000 inhabitants, about 15,000 of whom are Jews. The commercial har- bour is convenient, and is being much improved. A very large export trade is carried on from here in the1 produce of the country—grain, wood, eggs, etc.—and this i« en tirely in the hands of J ewish merchants. The conditions of the Jewish community are very similar to those already described at St. Petersburg and Riga. , There is a good deal of poverty among them, but the houses of the poor appeared excellent to one accus- timed to the horrors of the East End. There- is plenty of space and air, and rents are low. . I made an inspection of the ships which have been mentioned before the Commission. They have been im- proved, and the owners informed me that all require- ments as ib space and sanitary conveniences, etc., had been carried out. This may be so, and it is satisfactory that the inquiry in England has led to action being taken. The vessels, however, did not strike me as being suitable for passenger traffic, and they in- variably carry large cargoes of ponies, every corner not filled by emigrants being occupied in this way.45P ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Yilna. Majoe W. E. Frofri Libau I proceeded to Yilna, which has a popu- 'bn jTl* o otl0n of^°?e1200^000 ^habitants, of whom many are Got don, m.p. Koman Catholic Poles, and over 50 per cent. Jews. 26 Feb 1Q03 1?^ W ar? 5robakJy better P^ces than Yilna in lllll wh]ch to study a Jewish ghetto in all its original picturesque .squalor and poverty. In many parts the streets are so narrow that only one vehicle can pass -,'a,1ltlIX1?' T-hey are crowded with foot-passengers, and the shops and' stores on either side form a truly Onental bazaar. At intervals along these narrow streets there are arched gateways leading into court- yards, round which the miserable dens and cellars in which the people live are clustered, and it is here that the housing conditions of the Jewish poor .may be seen. I spent a whole day in visiting them. A rough picture of a key or a boot painted on the wall here and there shows some attempt at a trade, but a great part. 3f the people seem to have no regular occupation. At Dne corner of the court would be seen a wooden tank jr trough into which the refuse of the surrounding houses was thrown. The stench from these receptacles infected the whole air. The walls of the houses wertj blistered and rotting, as if poisoned by the pestilent atmosphere within. Two and three families would be found in one miserable room or cellar rented at 45 roubles a year. They were mixed' up together, regard- less of age and sex and health. In one room' I found a lunatic as a lodger among a family of young children. During my walks through the ghetto I was sur- rounded by a crowd of gaunt, curious, anxious faces- sad, careworn, hungry-looking people. Many openly begged alms. Some had trifles for sale. Others seemed to spend most of their time in the synagogues reading and rocking themselves into oblivion of their troubles. I came across several who had been to Eng- land and had been sent back by the Jewish Board of Guardians, I suppose as unfit for anything. One or two of them expressed a desire to return and make ■another trial of Whitechapel, and they asked me for financial assistance to carry out this object. I was, perhaps, hardly the .most suitable person to apply to. What was seen left a very painful impression upon one's mind, the more so as, with all possible sympathy for these hapless people in the conditions under which they have to live, one cannot see the advantage of transferring them and these conditions to the East End of London. On the whole I saw little in Yilna more horrible than I have frequently seen in Whitechapel and St. George's-in-the-East. There is a large emigration from Yilna, and the game of battledore and shuttlecock between this town and England .seems to be in full swing, the helpless and useless poor of the ghetto being the shuttlecock. This point cannot be too strongly emphasised, that in the main the emigration to England at all events comes from the lowest stratum of Jewish society in the con- gested towns. There is, of course, a. far brighter side to the Jewish community in Yilna. Every effort is made to relieve the necessitous. There is a society for giving cheap dinners to the poor, savings banks for small fraders, a loan association, a society for providing poor Jews with the means of learning handicrafts, an excellent technical school, an association for helping the indi- gent sick, Jewish almshouses, orphan asylums, girls' schools, etc. But, as in other great towns in all parts of the world, these efforts do not seem to go far in improving the state of affairs. Matters have been complicated in the last three or four years by a severe crisis in the building trade, in which for some time previous great activity had prevailed. There was immense specula- tion in building, and houses were run up in all direc- tions, the banks advancing money for the purpose. This activity provided a large amount of employment for the Jewish population. A year or two ago the in- evitable crash came, when some 11,000 people were thrown out of work. The position then became so serious that the Governor of the Province had to organise measures of relief to prevent the people dying of starvation in the street. During the period of activity a new element appeared in the Jewish question. In 1892, when the building boom set in, large numbers of Jewish workmen joined the Social Democratic Bond, whose propaganda began to spread about that time. A strike was organised, and took place. From an economic movement it soon became political, and very serious harm was done. The doctrine of the Social Democrats sought also to under- mine the religious beliefs of the Jews, and, while depriving many of their faith, substituted in their minds a spirit of unrest and discontent. In a soil' like that of Russia such seed was sure to germinate and bear fruit; and although it is not at all .surprising, that the Jewish working-men should have joined such' an organisation, the fact of their having done so and of their being mixed up with a semi-political move- ment of this kind will be used against them. It is such incidents which diminish the hope of * modification of the May laws and the other disabilities which press so heavily upon the Jews. Among the- official classes those who are opposed to any change in the existing law are able to point to the dangers-which-, would result from allowing the Jews greater liberties. It is .said that the Jewish working-men are beginning to see that when they join such organisations they are- only instruments in the hands of foreign political demagogues. They have even started a counter iiiove* ment in order to draw their fellow workers away from the influence of the Social Democrats, and to restore- the credit of the Jews in the eyes of the Government and of society. iluvno. From Yilna I paid a visit to Kovno, one of the towns <11 which a large and characteristic Jewish population- is to be seen. At certain seasons of the year an important wood, industry is carried on here. Rafts are floated down the river from up country, and have to be reconstructed and' strengthened when they reach the town. This work is carried on entirely by Jewish labour. It is of an arduous kind, needing muscular strength and endurance, and it involves great exposure. The labour is highly paid, and the people engaged upon it for four or five months live for the rest of the year on the- wages they receive. At Kovno there is a brewery owned' by a Jewish gentleman, in which a number of Jewish, as well as Christian hands are employed. The Jewish population lives for the most part in the suburbs of Slobodka, which consists entirely of wood cottages standing on canals of mud, miscalled roads. There axe said to be 10,000 inhabitants in this quarter, nearly all of them Jews. It reminded me strongly of a poor Scotch village. The people, whose occupation, is mostly outdoor, looked more healthy and robust than those in the ghettos of the towns. The interior arrange- ments of the houses were similar to those of a Scotch, croft. Some of the floors were without boards, and plastered with mud. I do not think the conditions here were any worse than might be found in the Highlands of (Scotland, and certainly not so bad as in the congested districts- of Ireland. The Rabbi told me that owing to a crisis in the wood trade, which had thrown a number of- people out of their normal employment, the poverty this year was exceptionally great. It is generally some such incident which leads to increased' emigration. The population is so poor and the labour market so. overcrowded and sensitive that influences of this kind are felt out of all proportion to their real importance.. Pinsk. From Wilna I proceeded to Pinsk, in the Govern- ment of Minsk, in the very heart of the Pale. The houses are all wooden except in one part of the town, which was recently burned down, where brick and stone have been substituted. The condition of the* people generally was very much the same as in Slobodka; the houses were very poor and humble, but, compared to the slums and ghettos of the great towns, healthy, and even luxurious. There is a steamer service from Pinsk down the* River Pripet to where it joins the Dnieper, and thence1 on to Kiev. The country is low-lying, and the nume- rous streams flowing through it turn great parts of it in the winter time into a lake. The enterprising- Jewish merchants have established steamer services in all directions, which are largely used a*d appreciated" by the people, and add greatly to the prosperity of the town. I did not discover that there was much emigration from Pinsk. The people who go would be drawn from the poorest class, or persons whose character makes- it undesirable for them to stop. Two cases were quoted to me in which certain individuals, who had given a great deal of trouble in the town, were advised and helped w go to England. They are in London at the present moment. I was also told in one factory that any of the hands who were desirous of emigrating' were given a premium of 10 roubles. By this means- i» was hoped to relieve the pressure for employment in the town and transfer it to England oar America..MINUTES OV EVIDENCE. 457 In addition to the schools and educational establish- ments which I have referred to, further burdens are cast upon the Jewish community in supporting their poor co-religionasts. In most Russian towns hospital accommodation is poor aaid scarce, and Christian patients would always have the preference. Hence in almost every town Jewish hospitals have been, built and, maintained out of the pockets of the well-to-do Hebrews. Taking Pinsk as an example, there are two hospitals of 25 beds each, and a large and admirable new building is being erected by the charity of Mr. Halpern, a leading maufacturer of the town. There is a loan society from which money is advanced to the poor without interest; a society for providing wood in,the winter; a society for giving imeal and meat on the Jewish holidays ; a practical school to teach sewing and tailoring to girls, and a technical school for boys for teaching ironwork. There are seven Jewish public schools and two Jewish girls' schools, two almshouses for old people, a kitchen for the poor, in which both Jews and Christians are received and given meals for a trifling payment. It will be seen that the Jewish people do all they can and all tha State will allow to render the lives of their co-reli- gionists more tolerable. Thes« efforts in large measure account for the fact that the emigration is not more considerable than it actually is. Country Districts. From Pinsk I made a journey into the interior of the country in order to study the conditions in the small towns and villages. I should say that the lot of the Jews is much happier here than in the great towns. Poor they generally are, but then the whole popula- tion is poor. Wo started on our journey in a small river steamer. It was crowded with passengers, the majority of them Jew®, though, there was a sprinkling of Russian peasants and farmers. One of the passengers was an old woman who had been to visit the doctor in Pinsk. There was no medical man in the whole district from which she came. I got into conversation with her and asked her : about her diet, etc. She told me that meat was hardly ever eaten in the villages by the Jewish people, and that except in a case of serious illness no one would dream of killing or eating a fowl. After about five hours on the steamer the river became so narrow and shallow that it was impossible to go further, and we had to land and' proceed in carts, the ordinary village vehicle, a few boards and sticks on four wheels-. The drivers are all Jews, and make their living by taking passengers or goods from the steamers to the villages. In this way after about five miles travelling we came to the village of Pohosk, which is typical of the kind of thing one finds. In this place there are 100 houses, 70 kept by Jews, and 30r by Christians. The Chris- tians are exclusively employed in agriculture. The inn was kept by a Jew. He also owned a shop and a brickfield, and was a comparatively well-to-do man. Many of the remaining Jews are employed as carmen and carriers. In the summer they use their carts! to bring passengers from the steamer to the town, and in the winter for carrying wood and other produce. Others find employment in the brickfields at wages from about five to .six roubles a week. But this work does not last very long, and they then make a living as boatmen or wood-choppers. The* tailor, the shoemaker, the lock- smith, etc., are all Jews, and the Jewish and Christian population live in perfect harmony together. From Pohosk we took boat again for a few miles, and then proceeded by cart to the village of Sterniki. The whole population of this place consists of some 700 families, 210 of whom are Jews. Forty of these Jewish families have settled here since the May Laws came into force in 1882, and a dispute is at the present molnent g*oing oh about these families as to whether the place can be considered a town under the terms of the, law or not. The newcomers naturally desire that it should be so considered, but it is curious to note that this was opposed by the original Jewish inhabi- tants) who are by no means anxious to have to compete with any more of their co-religionists than is necess- sary. At Sterniki I met the local head of the police, who gave one a good account of the Jewish population, and said that there was no ill-feeling between them and the Christians. There was no special feature about their behaviour. They were quiet and orderly, arid 6144. gave him little trouble. I asked him whether there Major W. E. were any particular offences to which the Jewish people Evans- were addicted, but he was unable to tell me of any. Gordon, m.p. About 10 or 15 families were said to have emigrated - to America from this place, but I did not hear of any 26 Feb. 1.03, who had gone to London. The police district over which this officer presides is a large one, some 30 miles long by 10 broad, and he only has very few men under him—a fact which speaks well1 for the orderly character of the population, or, from another point of view, ill for the arrangements which are made by the Government for preserving order. From iSterniki we proceeded to Gorodno, a journey. of some 25 miles, by cart. The principal industry here is the making of earthen pots and jars. The potters are all Christians, but after the vessels are made, no other than Jewish hands touch them. They buy them from the peasants at an average price of about 1 kopeck apiece, pack them in carts, and take them away by road or river to the market. The industry has attained considerable pro- portions, the earthen vessels being thus distributed over a very wide area. The enterprise of the Jews if well' illustrated by the fact that they frequently take boatloads of these fragile goods as far north as Kovno, which is 300 or 400 miles away. In the whole area of country I covered in this journey, some 150 miles, there was not a single State school or a single doctor. In Gorodno an epidemic of scarlet fever was raging, and the children were dying like flies, without the remotest possibility of any medi- cal assistance. The nearest available doctor is in Pinsk, but even when summoned he had no desire to visit these remote villages. The Jews in Poland. From Pmsk I proceeded to Warsaw, as I was anxious to nicike myself acquainted with the position of affairs in Poland. Here the conditions under which the Jew lives are somewhat different from those obtaining in Russia. The laws and restrictions are not so severe. They can live anywhere and even cultivate and acquire land, though there do not seem to be many who avail themselves of the privilege. In Poland great changes are in process of develop- ment. The noblemen and landed gentry are for the most part ruined, and what is known as the panella- tion of their estates is going forward. The Jews by this means are acquiring a proportion of the land. The Polish gentry are turning their attention to commerce, but here they find the ground already occupied by the Jewish people, who for centuries have been firmly established in business. This adds to the strong social anti-semitism which exists in Poland. The feeling between Christian and Jew is very different here from what it is in Russia, and the slightest cause may lead to a dangerous outbreak. A serious riot occurred in Czenstochowa while I was there. It was alleged that a Christian woman was beaten by a Jew. In a very short time the Christian population turned out and fell upon the Jews. Several people were killed and many injured, but the riot was promptly suppressed by the1 authorities, which a few years ago would probably not have been the case. The Roman Catholic priests and people seem to be far more intolerant of +he Jews th?n thp, clergy of the Orthodox Church, and' there is, further, bad feeling between Jew and Jew. The Polish Jews are keen Polish patriots ; anything Russian is distasteful to them, and they have no friendly feeling for their Russian co-religionists. At each recurring census in Russia it is becoming apparent that the Jews increase much more rapidly than any other part of the population. The following statistics for Poland from the year 1816 to 1897 bring out this fact: — Year. Christians. i Jews. 1816 2,519,380 212,944 1897 8,079,572 1,316,576 The ratio of increase of Christians is therefore 220*7 per cent., the ratio of increase of Jews, 518'4 per cent. 3 M458 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Major W. E. The causes of this abnormal increase would seem to * Evans- be— Gordon, m.p. Natural fecundity. 26 Feb. 1C03. 2. Early marriage. 3. The care bestowed upon their children by the Jews, and the religions' observances which protect women at critical periods of their life. While, on the one hand, the Jewish population is thus, increasing far more rapidly than the Christian, there has been no corresponding increase in the trades &nd occupations open to the Jews. On the contrary, the employment available for them has diminished, and the economic conditions have grown and are grow- ing steadily worse. These conditions especially affect the poorer class of Jews. The internal trade of the country which provides a livelihood for the greater part of this class has undoubtedly increased since the emancipation of the serfs, but this development has not kept pace with the ever-increasing number of Jewish traders and workmen. The commercial deve- lopment and success, as evidenced by the establishment of large factories, is only beneficial to an insignificant number of the richer Jews, who have invested their capital in these undertakings. These successes are directly injurious to the mass of Jewish artisans who make their living in the smaller home industries and are not to any great extent employed in the large factories. As I have said, there are no restrictions in Poland as to the places in which Jew's arei allowed to live, but this freedom of residence does not appear to alleviate the difficulty. The emancipation leave their) villages for more than one or at most two days at a time, so that it was impossible for them to take any considerable part in transporting goods from one place to another. Moreover, at this time the peasantry owned but few horses. They kept oxen for their ploughs. But directly they received their freedom all this was changed. The peasantry got rid of their oxen and took to keeping horses, and the time at their disposal enabled them to< take part in the carrying business. The following particulars show to what extent this change in the condition of the peasantry of the King- dom of Poland has operated : — Year 1870. Number of horses Number of oxen - - „ Year 1899. Number of horses Number of oxen 753,421 758,763 1,366,925 188,474 It will thus be seen that between the years 1870 to 1899 there was an addition of 81*4 per cent, of horses, and a reduction 75*2 per cent, of oxen. Although the railways, of which the Kingdom of Poland possesses more than any other part of the Bussian Empire, caused a falling off in the road trans- port industry, especially for long distances, still the stimulus to the general movement of trade to some extent compensated for this by increasing the bulk of the haulage business. But the Jewish people %ho were employed in the carrying trade were the chief sufferers, because they were the people who formerly catered for the long-distance traffic. The carrying of goods for the short distances from the village® to the stations is now in the hands of the peasantry. At the present time more than two-thirds of the carrying trade of the villages is conducted by the peasantry, and large sums of money are earned by them in this way. In the village of Lazisk, in the district of Bezezin, the peasants earn a sum of 4,500 roubles a year, by carting timber to the saw-mills, and in many other villages sums! from 1,000 to 1,500 roubles are annually secured in this way. Generally speaking, the total amount of earnings by the peasants in this branch of industry in Poland may be taken as not less than one and a half million roubles ; and that, roughly, is the amount lost annually to the Jews. In 1876 Customs reforms were adopted, and more energetic means were taken to prevent smuggling. A large contraband trade was carried on by Jewish peop^o at this time chiefly m German spirit, whicn was smuggled over the whole length of the Prussian frontier, and the Government organised a special excise m addi- tion to the ordinary frontier police to put a stop to the traffic. A further reduction m the employment which previously existed for the Jewish people resulted from the introduction of new forest laws, which to a large extent stopped Jewish speculation in this important branch of trade. The Jews ceased to buy estates, which they f ormerly purchased in order to cut down the forests, and afterwards sell the ground in allotments. These new forest laws not only affected the richer class of the Jewish people, but also their agents and work- people who were employed in the industry, and were f or the most part themselves Jews. The working of the Peasant Banks has operated in the same direction. Formerly the Jews did a large busi- ness in the allotment of landed estates on their own account. They also acted a© intermediaries between the sellers and the peasant buyers. Their services were then in much request; for it was necessary to find a buyer among the richer peasants who would be in a posi- tion to pay the whole price at once or by instalments spread over a term of years, and this was often a diffi- cult matter, xNow tho Peasant Banks advance the pur- chase money to the buyer, who has thus, in the first instance, only to pay a very small sum out of his own pocket. These facilities have increased the number of purchasers to such an extent that there is no need to seek out wealthy buyers, and the services of the people, chiefly Jews, who secured them are no longer required. Again, the Government monopoly in spirits has com- pelled the Jews who kept spirit stores, public-houses, or cook-shops where liquor was sold to wind up their businesses and re-invest their capital, often at a heavy loss, in other enterprises!. Many of them had a diffi- culty in finding a fresh field for their operations. The founding of the " Loan Savings Banks " in the villages has been a heavy blow to the Jews engaged in money-lending. These banks were first opened in 1863. In 1899 there were 1,320 of them in Poland. Their funds amounted to 22,283,360 roubles, and they granted loans to the extent of 18,938,900 roubles. The turnover ot the usurers was reduced by this amount at least. The operations of these banks do not by any means cover all the requirements of the country in respect of advances of money. But it is estimated that they have reduced the usurious profits of the Jews by 4,560,000 roubles yearly, even if it is supposed that the peasants pay only 24 per cent, to the lenders. Investigation in the Govern- ment of Hadom, however, showed that the peasants were paying ,as much as 36, 48, and 60 per cent, yearly. All the foregoing facts show that, even apart from the rapid increase of their numbers, the position of the Jews would have become worse. This increase has, of course, added to the effect. The result upon the moral character of the Jews has been bad. As instances of crimes not formerly prevalent among them may be men- tioned murderous ^assaults and horse-stealing by an organised band of Jewish horse-thieves numbering over 100 persons. And whereas, as recently as the sixties of the last century there were no Jewish prostitutes in Poland, now "Warsaw is full of Jewish women of that class. This deterioration is evidently due to the lower- ing of the level of prosperity among the Jews. Warsaw. In Warsaw alone there are nearly 300,000 Jews out of a total population of 736,625. I spent several days in visiting the ghettos and studying the conditions under which their inhabitants live. The houses were certainly in many instances bad and overcrowded, but I came across none so miserable or insanitary as those that I had already seen in Vilna. Many of the poorer classes live in dwellings five or six storeys high, in which rooms and flats are let out, whereas in Vilna the houses ar« much smaller and older, and a large number of the people live under ground. The Rev. Dr. Octaviusi Ellis of the Jewish Mission, who ha£L recently returned from Whitechapel, where he had been working for five years, and'who has had 25 years' experience of Warsaw, told me that the conditions in the East End were in his opinion far worse than in the Polish capital, and that the bulk of the Polish emigrants to England are drawn from the most necessitous class. I have already referred to: the admirable educational and charitable establishments which the wealthy Jews prov! ie for their poorer brethren in Warsaw, but I was warned not to be misled as to the true condition of affairs MINUTES" OF EVIDENCE. 459 by the impression which these institutions left upon my mind. It is too true' that they provide no criterion of the real condition of the people. They affect a mere fringe of the Jewish population. There are one or two manufactories, such as Mr. Mneikem^s lace factory and Mr. Polakievitz's tobacco and cigar factory, in which Jews as well as Christians are employed. Mr. Whitehead, the manager of the lace fac- tory, spoke in the highest terms of his Jewish workmen and workwomen. It is all piecework, requiring cor. - siderable skill, and the only objection he had to make was, that, the Jewish people would try and do too much and overrun the machines unless carefully watched. He spoke in the highest terms of the morality of the Jewish as contrasted with that of the Polish girls. Few of the f ormer ever got into trouble, whereas among the latter not' a week passed without the necessity arising for him to dismiss some girl owing to her pregnancy. Mr. Polakievitz's tobacco factory in Warsaw is a. sort of school for this industry throughout the world. Many hundreds of workmen and women trained there have subsequently emigrated to America and to England. There is no compulsion upon these people to go, and they leave solely with the idea of bettering themselves. In Warsaw, their wages run from three roubles for girls to seven roubles per week for men. This would be 6s. 3d.. ^nd 14s. 7d. respectively in English money; buc the standard of living is lower, < commodities cheaper, and their wants few. They all save money, and either emigrate or marry. I saw several who had been to New York and England, and had returned. They told me that they had come back not because they had failed abroad, but because they preferred to be among their own people in Poland. Mr. Polakievitz -spoke in the highest terms of his hands; they gave no trouble, were obedient, orderly, diligent, and had indeed all the best qualities operatives should possess. Every provision is made for their health and comfort, and the factory contains a school for the children of the employees. The whole establishment provided an interesting object lesson of what could be done with the children of the ghetto in their native country. Lodz. From Warsaw I went to Lodz, the Manchester of Eastern Europe. Time did not permit of my studying the conditions of the smaller villages' and towns in Poland, and I am unable to* say from personal experi- ence whether the right to live upon the land, which the Jews possess, is exercised to any considerable extent. It is, however, unquestionable that- the tendency of the Jewish population here, as elsewhere, is to crowd into the larger cities. The two towns of Lodz and Warsaw alone have a Jewish population of not much less than half a million people. Out of the 400,000 inhabitants of Lodz some 150,000 are Jews. Few are employed in the large factories,, although many of these are in Jewish ownership. The principal owners are, however, Germans. There is not a single factory owned by a Pole. . The non-employment of Jewish hands by Jewish owners is a distressing and unfortunate feature of the place. The reason given is that the Christians will not work on Sunday any more than the Jews will on their Sabbath. Consequently, unless a part of the machinery is to lie idle two days in the week, the workpeople must be either all Jews or all Christians. A further difficulty was said to be that the master workmen, engineers, and mechanics in the factories were all Christians, so that even if Jews were employed on Sunday , the machines could not run. I beJieve that these difficulties could be, and should be, overcome. They have been surmounted in Warsaw. First-rate Jewish foremen, engineers and mechanics are being turned out of the technical schools every year, and it seems somewhat paradoxical for the Jewish philan- thropists to provide these training colleges and not to find openings in their works for the boys trained. The industry is nearly entirely spinning. The cloth that is made at Lodz is generally of the cheapest quality; and it was interesting to find that many rail- way truckloads of rags arrive daily from England to be torn up and rewoven into new material. Quite a short time ago Lodz was a .small, insignificant place, inhabited by Jews, who were solely employed in hand-loom weaving. . This industry is still carried on, certain kinds of cloth being better and more cheaply made in this wav, but itds a declining trade. The very best men work- ing 15 to 18 hours a day can only earn at the outside seven 'roubles a week. The conditions under which the work is done are Major W E appalling. I shall never forget the terrible places and ' Evans- rooms in which I saw this trade being carried on. It Gordon, m.p, would need the pen of a Zola to do justice toi them. _ Three or four looms are crammed into one room with 26 Feb. 1903. as many families. I have never seen human beings-- living under more awful conditions even in Yilna or the East of London. Those who have seen Hauptman's grim masterpiece, "Die Weber," can form an idea of the reality. The people had the appearance of half- starved consumptives. The streets are narrow, and the houses mostly of wood. Some of them are four or five storeys high, and are packed solid with humanity. The number of children is incredible. The roofs of these houses slope steeply, and I found people living in the apex of tiie angle between the topmost floor and the wooden tiles. Into these receptacles one could hardly creep on one's hands and knees. The police had, I was told, interfered to prevent people sleeping in the lofts I have described, but the places were .re-occupied as soon as the backs of the officials were turned. These are precisely the diffi- culties with which we are familiar in the East of Londoni. The commercial and financial position of Lodz is un- sound. There has been over speculation. Larg^> factories have been started on a few thousand roubles cash and the remainder loans and mortgages. The business of the place is principally conducted by means of Wechsels or bills of exchange. Even wages are sometimes paid in this way. The discounting of this paper is a large business in itself. The place is a com- mercial Mont Pelee which may blow up at any moment. When it does, the ashes and debris will be carried as far a£ Whitechapel. Money is chronically tight and extremely dear, 10 per cent, being a moderate fate of interest for a first-class concern. This state of things leads to periodic crises. A few years ago there was -a terrific smash; about half the place went bankrupt, and at least 40,000 people left the town. At such times the Jewish hand-loom industry, together' with other occupations, comes to a standstill, and the people are practically starving in the streets. Here, as in Warsaw, where employment for the Jews is scarce, there is a tendency for everyone to become a merchant o± trader. Many start a small shop or busi- ness with a totally inadequate capital. They carry on their trade for a short time till the inevitable crash comes, and then go bankrupt. The Jew who has once occupied the position of a merchant or trader, how- ever insignificant, would rather die/ than take to manual or menial labour in the place where he is known; consequently, the only thing left for him is to leave; and there is a steady outflow of such people from Lodz and the neighbourhood. Most of these quit the country without the passports which the Russian law requires them to obtain. A large trade is carried! on in] smuggling this class of emigrants across the frontier. Both Lodz and Warsaw give point to the warning issued by Consul H. P. Smith of Odessa in his report to the Foreign Office of January, 1898, to the following effect: —" Experience teaches that Jews who seek credit in the agricultural machinery trade take up the busi- ness with the original intention of sooner or later defrartding those firms whjo are induced! to give them credit, and I would seriously advise all British firms to avoid doing business with them upon credit terms." This warning is, of course, not applicable to the trade in agricultural machinery -only. In this connection I give in his own words the statement made to me by the Consul-General at Riga upon the same subject:—"There is another thing ne (the Jew) puts into practice very often, as many of our British merchants and manufacturers know to their sorrow. He starts a business somehow, and after a time manages to get a few goods on credit. When pay- ment becomes due he meets his bill, and, of cour&>o,. gives another order. He again pays promptly, and this time his order is stiffer. After playing in this way for a year or two, he goes in for a big deal, and long before his bill arrives at maturity his property is transferred to his wife, and his business to somebody else, and in spite of everything his foreign creditors and their lawyers can do, there is absolutely nothing to be got out of him." The British Consulate at Warsaw endorses these warnings to English commercial men. We find the practice which has just been mentioned strongly marked in the East End of London to-day. With regard to the Jewish emigration from Poland, my conclusion is that the causes of it a-re economic 6144. 3 m %460 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Major W. E. rather than political. The Jews are not oppressed to Evans- an appreciably greater degree than the Roman Xxordon, M.P. Catholics; the struggle for life among both sections of - the people is severe, and that a similar pressure impels 26 Feb. 1903. both classes to leave the country is shown by the ex- tensive movement of Christian Poles westward to Germany, England, and America, which proceeds con- currently with Jewish emigration. The Jews in Galicia. The pressure upon Jewish people to emigrate is by no means confined to Russia or to Poland. In Galicia the conditions are quite as bad, though the causes are quite different. In Austria-Hungary there are no law against the Jews, yet the misery among, them is probably greater here than anywhere else. Indeed, in the opinion of a competent Jewish authority, it has here reached its highest point. The vital statistics of the Galician Jews, for instance, are the most unsatisfactory known to the entire race. The this point. The mortality of children up to five years, per thousand, works out as follows: — Frankfort-on-Main. Jews, 129.—Christians, 240. Amsterdam. Jews, 88.—Christians, 115. London. Jews, 130.—Christians, 240. Galicia. Jews, 560.—Christians, 540. Here, too, although there is no law compelling th&m to iiera together, uhey are to be lound crowded into the towns. inis demonstrates tne tact that the conges- tion in the towns so bitterly complained of m the Russian Pale is not solely due to legislative re- strictions. In Poland, in Galicia, in England, and in America, where no such restrictions exist, the Jews flock to the towns in a precisely similar manner. In .the one case they axe herded together by law, in the others they herd together of their own free will; and one is bound to ask one's self whether, if the restric- tions imposed by the May Laws were removed, there would be any considerable relief to the existing pres- sure in the towns of the Pale or a wider dissemination of the Jewish population. There are, for instance, some 30,000 Jews in Cracow, at least half of them ex- tremely poor. They seem to have nothing to do, and it is a mystery how they live. Here, as elsewhere, 1 visited the slums and ghettos, but the houses and conditions were as paradise com- pared to those of Yilna, Warsaw, or London. The country is purely agricultural, and the Galician Jew, who is said to be the most backward, bigoted, and prejudiced of his race, does not readily take to? agri- culture. There are no manufactories in which the Jews might find employment. The feeling against them in Galicia is very strong, the Roman. Catholic priests apparently doing their best to stimulate it. Some of the leaders of the Jewish community in Cracow gave it as their deliberate opinion that the position of their co-religionists in Russia was better than in Galicia. I have little doubt that there is some reason other than mere religious prejudice for the bitter feeling which exists. Christian people with whom I spoke on the subject said that where a Jew settles in the neighbourhood of a Christian peasant the latter is speedily ruined. The poorer class of Galician Jew, at all events, is quite a type apart, and compares unfavourably in- industry and ability with his co- religionists elsewhere. In Cracow the majority of them adhere to the costume of the middle ages, and on a Sabbath, in their silk gaberdines reaching to the ground, black velvet hats bound round with fur—many of them extremely handsome men, with long, flowing white beards and curly locks over their ears—they present a remarkable and picturesque appearance. Their costume is typical of the stage of evolution they have reached. The Jewish and Christian communities in Cracow are quite separate, and there is practically no social intercourse between them. An attempt was made to start a technical school in Cracow for the Jews. It was carried on with some success for a few years, but is now unfortunately closed owing to some disagreement between the Cracow community and the Managers of the Hirsch Bequest in Vienna. The conditions I have above described naturally lead to emigration, and there is a large and steady outflow from Galicia to other parts of the world. It is stated that there are 8,000 to 9,000 Cracow Jews in New York alone, and there are doubtless many in London. There is, however, a large wealthy and well-to-do class of Jews both in the towns and in the country.. A fifth part of the land in Galicia belongs to them, and some of the largest estates are in their hands. It is said that in the Bukovina, the southern corner of the Galician Province, 22 per cent, of the great landed estates belong to Jews, and most of the remaining pro- perty is encumbered by mortgages held by them. I wish it to be understood that the time at my disposal did not enable me to make a close personal study of the conditions in Galicia; but all authorities concur in the conclusions which I arrived at, namely, that the posi- tion of the Jews in this part of Europe is quite as bad as, if not worse than, elsewhere, and that this province of the Austro-Hungarian Empire must be regarded as one of the principal sources of emigration westward. From the condition of affairs in Galicia this impor- tant conclusion may further be drawn—that the legisla- tive restrictions in other parts of Europe do not supply the sole cause for Jewish poverty and distress. The existence of a large well-to^do class of Jews, both mer- chants and landed proprietors, would, one would think, enable the community to provide employment and relief for their own poor. But this does not appear to be the case, and the problem created by the concentra- tion of the people in the towns is as far from solution here as it is in the Russian Pale. The Jews in Roumania. No> study of the causes which lead to Jewish emigration from Eastern Europe would foe complete without an examination of the question in Ron mania. I was de- sirous of satisfying myself as to the ireal condition of affairs, and I consequently continued my journey from Cracow to Bucharest. I had the advantage of discuss- ing the question with our Minister, Sir J. Gordon Ken- nedy, with Mr. Take Ionesco, one of the ablest poli- ticians in the country, and with many other prominent men, both Jew and Gentile. I came to the conclusion that in Roumania, in con- trast to Galicia., the movement of the Jewish popula- tion may be directly traced to the action of the Govern- ment. The Jewish question has been a burning one ever since Roumanian independence was granted, and even long before. As is well known, at the time of the Berlin Conference, in 1878, an attempt was made to place the Jewish subjects of Roumania upon a footing of equality with the other classes of the population. The evident intention of the Powers throughout the negotiations was to establish complete religious and civil equality for the Jews. The policy of the Rou- manian Government was then, and is still, directly opposed to this intention. Rightly or wrongly, they have always asserted that such equality if given to the Hebrew race would end in the subjugation of their country by an alien people, and far from complying with the conditions laid down by the great Powers, their policy has been deliberately directed towards the com- plete suppression, political extermination, and total expulsion of the Jews. In 1878 came the negotiation of the Treaty of Berlin. That opportunity was taken by the Powers to make an endeavour to remove once and for all the sufferings and disabilities which the Roumanian Jews had up till that time been compelled to bear. With this object Article 44 was introduced into the treaty. It runs as follows : — " En Roumanie la distinction des croyances re- ligieuses et des confessions ne pourra et-re opposee a pereonne comme un motif d'exclusion ou d'inoapacit6 en ce qui concerne la jouissance des droits civils et politiques, l'admission aux emplois publics, fonctions et honneurs, ou Pexercice des differentes professions et in- dustries dans quelque localite que ce soit. La liberte et la pratique ext6rieure de tous les cultes seront assurees a tous les ressortissants de l'Etat Rou- main aussi bien qu' aux etrangers, et aucune entrave ne sera apportee, soit 4 1'organisation hierarchique des dif- ferentes communions, soit a leurs rapports avec leurs chefs spirituels. Les nationaux de toutes les Puissances, commergants ou autres seront traites en Roumanie sans distinction de religion sur le pied d'une parfaite 6galit6." The conditions laid down in this article were strenu- ously opposed by the Roumanian Government and people. Throughout the negotiations which followed witfbMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 461 iTespect to the recognition of independence, stress was laid on the desire of the Powers to see Roumania bring herself into conformity with the stipulations of the "Treaty of Berlin, and when Roumanian independence was finally conceded an Identic Note was presented by the representatives of Great Britain, France, and Ger- many, at Bucharest. It was couched in the following terms:— Bucharest, 20 bh February, 1880. " The undersigned, British representative at □Bucharest, has the honour, by order of his Govern- ment, to convey to M. Boeresco, the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Roumania., the following communi- 'Cation: — " Her Britannic Majesty's Government have been in- formed, through the Agent of His Royal Highness the Prince of Roumania at Paris, of the promulgation, on the 25th October, 1879, of a law, voted by the 4 Cham- bresi de Revision' of the Principality, for the purpose < of bringing the text of the Roumanian Constitution into conformity with the stipulations inserted in Article ! XLIV. of the Treaty of Berlin. "Her Majesty's Government cannot consider the new 6 Constitutional provisions which have been brought to their cognisance—and particularly those by which per- sons belonging to a non-Christian creed domiciled in Roumania, and not belonging to any foreign nation- ality, are required to submit to the formalities of in- dividual naturalisation-- as being a complete fulfilment of the views of th/1 Powers signatories of the Treaty -of Berlin. Trusting, however, to the determination of the Princess Government to approximate more an(J more, in the execution of these provisions, to the liberal inten- tions entertained by the Powers, and taking note of the positive assurances to that effect which have been • conveyed to them, the Government of Her Britannic Majesty, being desirous of giving to the Roumanian nation a proof of their friendly sentiments, have de- cided to recognise the Principality of Roumania as an "independent State. Her Majesty's Government conse- quently declare themselves ready to enter into regular -diplomatic relations with the Prince's Government." Since that time the Roumanian Government has taken ~no steps which could justify the confidence reposed in it. The position of the Jews to-day is worse than it was "before the Powers interfered. Enactments and regula- tions tending to harass and impoverish them have fol- lowed one another. These culminated in the introduc- tion of the Artisans Law of March, 1902, which, had it Tbeen passed as originally proposed, would have literally • deprived Jewish working men of all means of subsis- tence. The following figures show to what extent the Jews Vhave been allowed to take advantage of the privileges which were obtained for them by the Powers. The mumber of Jews who have been actually naturalised are i&s follows : — • 1879 .....6 1880 - 52 1881 - 5 1882 .....3 1883 .....1 1884-85 .....0 1886 .....1 1887-88 .....0 1889 -.....1 1890-91-92 - 1 :l893-94.....2 1894-95 - • - - - - 4 11896-97 .....2 1897-98 .....2 1898-9 9.....0 1899-1900 - 5 In all - 85 "Of these 29 are now dead. There remain, therefore, 56 'naturalised Jews in the whole of Roumania;; moreover, the children of naturalised subjects are not themselves held to be naturalised, and if they wish to become Roumanian citizens the process has to be repeated, and each individual case forms the subject of a vote in Parliament. At the time I was in Bucharest the case '•of a man whose father had fought and been severely wounded in the war, and who himself claimed to be a Major W. E. naturalised subject, came before the High Court. The Evans- decision was that the applicant had no right to con- Gordon, m.p. eider himself a Roumanian citizen. It seems to me -- that the action of the Roumanian Government in this 23 Feb. 1903. question of naturalisation alone is in itself full and sufficient proof of their malignant policy against the Jews, as it is also; a clear and unmistakable breach of the spirit if not the letter of the Treaty under which Roumanian independence was granted. In Roumania it is pointed out that many of the laws which are quoted as being aimed at the Jews affect but few persons. Their cumulative result, however, is con- siderable ; and there is this important difference be- tween the position of a real foreigner and a Jew: the former has the acknowledgment and protection of his Minister and his Government, the latter has not. The law of (March, 1902, still contains many vexatious provisions which wjill bear heavily upon the Jewish workers, and which, one may be quite certain, will be used to their full extent against them. It is unneces- sary to quote further from the weary list of enactments that render the lives of the Roumanian J ews intolerable. They have been almost entirely deprived of education. A Jewish patient is not received into a Christian hos- pital. In one case—the hospital at Craiova—Jewish patients are excluded, in spite of the express stipulation in the founder's bequest that distinctions of creed or nationality should not be made. The St. Spiridou Ho- - ^ltal at Jassy only admits Jews " it their malady pre- sents a particular interest for the instruction of students." Various occupations have been totally closed to Jewish people, and the net result is that nothing remains to thein but to emigrate. Beween 200 and 350 persons quit the country every week in organised parties, be- sides many who leave on their own account. It has been shown that the spirit of the Roumanian law is to treat the Jew as a foreigner, but this principle is only carried out where it is considered to the ad- vantage of the Roumanian people. The law for the army provides that every man is compelled to serve, including foreigners who cannot show that they have already performed military service in their own country. Even if they cannot do this, the subjects of other countries easily obtain exemption. The Jews, however, cannot, of course, claim to have served under any other Government, and they are consequently compelled to enlist. When enlisted they are treated as pariahs and cannot rise above the rank of corporal. It is not claimed by the Jews themselves that the entire Jewish population is entitled to naturalisation or to full rights as Roumanian subjects. At the time of the Berlin Treaty there were probably not nearly as many Jews in the country as there are now. Quito apart from their natural growth their numbers have doubtless been increased by immigration from Russia and Galicia. In the year 1835 it was estimated that there were only 65,000 Jews in the country, and supposing the population to have doubled, there would be 130,000 now. As a matter of fact there are probably nearly 300,000, and the increase is in part due to wanderers who have come in from outside. If, however, an honest attempt had been made to- carry out the spirit of their treaty engagements, the Roumanian Government could have easily ascertained which of the Jewish families could prove residence in Roumania for one or two generations, and could be really considered as Roumanian subjects. Even now that could be readily done, and if all the Jewish people entitled to full Roumanian citizenship were to obtain that privilege it is practically certain that they would not represent more than a trifling percentage of the native Christian element, though the proportion in Moldavia, where the bulk of the Jewish people reside, might be higher. The scarcity of 1899 and subsequent years made it only too apparent that improvement in, the system of agri- culture was necessary. A large portion of the Rou- manian soil, which is some of the richest in the world, remains uncultivated. Thousands of agricultural labourers from Bulgaria are annually imported to carry on the work in the fields, and they take large sums of money in the shape of wages back into their owf country. It has been proved in Hungary and in parts of Russia that the Jew, if settled on the land, becomes a first-rate agriculturist, and if he were utilised in this respect in Roumania it would be of great advantage to the country. The evils which result from compelling the Jewish people to live crowded together in the towns which I462 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. Major W. E. Have spoken of with reference to Russia are equally Evans- apparent here. In Bucharest there are 43,000 Jews, in Gordon, m. p. Ja the ground. It is abund- antly clear, although the numbers rejected in America may be small, that this is entirely due to the elaborate! precautions which are taken before the emigrants start to prevent the possibility of their rejection. It is un- questionable that were these: laws to be repealed to- - morrow the amount of emigration to the United States ~ would enormously increase, and its character would greatly deteriorate. , The American law has this further result, that those who are unfitted for the States inevitably turn to some other country, where no medical examination is neces- sary, and where no> stipulations or conditions whatso- ever exist as to the health, character, or means of the -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 463 <■.50 miles away, with & -prayer -asking permission to leave the country, and this petition must bear two stamps of one rouble each- If the applicant goes per- sonally, is acquainted with some of the officials in the Governor's office and spends a few roubles, he may get his papers through in a day, but if they are sent by post they may be delayed for two or three months. If the business is transacted by post the passport is sent back to the head of the police circle in which the appli- cant resides. This latter sends the passport on to the applicant, all the other documents being retained in the hands of the police. The permission to leave the country thus granted is only valid for three weeks, and if not used within that period the whole process must be repeated de novo, and the money expended again. If the applicant for per- mission to leave should be a reservist, he must in addi- tion to the above procedure present himself to the military administration and notify his intention there. The above complicated procedure has created a calling, that of passport broker or agent, who for a fee under- takes the whole business ; but in whatever way it is done, from first to last the procedure does not cost less than 30 roubles—say, £3. Smuggled Emigrants. The irregular traffic, unless the individual is under great pressure, costs half that sum. It is evident that ;the obstacles placed in the way of persons going by regular means must induce an enormous number to evade them. For instance, a man liable to military service and desirous of evading it could never get through the net. And this class, and all those who will not or cannot obtain their passports in regular form are •smuggled across the frontier. Numbers of them go from Calisch, to which place the railway has not yet penetrated- The business is conducted in the following way: — The people inhabiting the villages and towns on the frontier are entitled to what is known as a halb pass (polupasek) free of expense. These are traded in, and on til emigrant arriving at the frontier he will be handed one for ai consideration, which will enable him to get across. The pass is then sent back and used again. Failing this, means can always be found to smuggle people over the frontier at one point or another. Of the thousands who reach Hamburg and the other German and Dutch ports from Russia and Poland, not 10 per cent, are in the possession of passports. It is by this means also that all persons running p,way from justice, deserters from the army, etc., escape, and it is clear that the undesirables and criminals of whom we hear so much complaint in London come by this route. The people getting over the frontier in this way are not sent back by the German authorities provided they have enough money to continue their journey to the coast. If a man had no means he might be sent back, but not otherwise. From all I can learn the German authorities on the frontier do not treat these individual cases on the same basis as batches of emigrants cross- ing the frontier in the ordinary way are treated. These latter, as I have shown, are required to be in possession of 300 marks per adult, and 150 marks for every child under 12. But no such demands are apparently made in the case of persons smuggled across the frontier. Foreign Jewish Opinion on Emigration. Abroad, I was everywhere received by the leaders of Jewish opinion with the utmost kindness and courtesy, and they showed a keen desire to place me in full posses- sion of all the facts either for or against restriction. It wa.s on all sides freely admitted that the influx of a large foreign population presents a serious problem to which statesmen are bound to give attention, and that the concentration of this population in certain towns, especially in London, had been greatly overdone', and had given rise to serious evils and a quite comprehen- sible discontent. The Jewish people are naturally anxious that nothing should be done which should in any way add to the already heavy burdens and severe sufferings to which they are subjected. England has always been quoted by them and held up as an example of toleration and free- dom to the rest of the world, and thev fear that a restrictive measure in this country would be seized upon in Russia, and Roumania as a measure aimed against the Jews and as a justification for all the legislative persecu- tion which those countries have adopted. England would be said to have joined the anti-Semi tie crusade, 6144. and a serious blow would be struck at the hopes always Major W. E. entertained by the Jews for the dawn of better and ^ Evans- more tolerant times for their people in Eastern Europe.. Oordon,. m.p. It was, however, freely admitted that England is t7T~iqn^ bound in the first place to consider the welfare of her ^ ' own people, and that we are not justified in allowing them to suffer for the misdeeds of foreign Governments:. The shirt is nearer to the body than the coat. They admit that it is hard that a working-class family in the- East of London should be turned out of their home by the pressure of some inhuman law promulgated in St. Petersburg or Bucharest. In some quarters, however, a doubt is expressed as to whether any restrictive law which would be likely to find acceptance in the British Parliament would result in any solution of the problem considerable enough to justify so serious a departure from traditional English policy. The results of the American law were often quoted to me as emphasising this argument, and-it was said that America, in. spite of restriction, had not succeeded in preventing a very con- siderable annual immigration of Jews to1 the United States. On the other hand, many of the leading Jews with whom I had the advantage of discussing the subject wer© of decided opinion that the movement of persons without any trade or handicraft, of the diseased and un- healthy, the criminal and ill-behaved, was an evil re- garded even from the purely Jewish point of view, and that it would be far better for the Jewish community at large if such persons were never allowed to leave their homes, as they not onlv caused very heavy financial burdens, but also brought discredit upon, the Jewish name in the countries where they settled. The opinion expressed by Dr. Nordau is shared by many that the money spent either by the people themselves or by those who help them to go, and the constantly recurring heavy cost of repatriating them, is money foolishly and recklessly thrown out of the window. Tens of thousands of pounds, as lie says, are yearly wasted in this useless travelling. Consular Certificates. Emigrants, leaving Libau or other Russiain ports must have Russian passports, which are carefully examined before they are allowed to set foot on board thei ship. This system provides in itself a filter and check, and it) is clear that if we were to' insist that every steerage passenger coming from Russia, Poland, or Roumania would not be allowed to land without a passport vised by an English consul, the stream of immigration would be greatly reduced, and we should have a certain control over it. In this case there could be no question of retaliatory measures being taken, as no person can enter Russia or Roumania without a passport vised in the same- way. If, in the case of emigrants leaving Russia for England, the production of the. passport were insisted on, and if, in the case of emigrants leaving German ports for England, legislation were adopted here which would make it the interest of the shipping companies to take th© precautions which they actually take in the case of emigrants bound for America, the entry of criminals and other undesirable elements from Eastern Europe into this country would be greatly diminished, if it were not altogether stopped. It may be argued that even if the system of Consular Certificates were introduced it would only affect a por- tion of the traffic. In this connection it should be noted that of 15,958 Russians and Poles who arrived in the Port of London during 1901 and were not stated to be en route, 15,746 came from the following portsi:—Libau. Hamburg, Bremen and Bremerhaven, Amsterdam, Ant- werp, and Rotterdam. From all other ports only 212 immigrants of this class arrived in London; the arrivals at Dover numbered 62, at Harwich 7, and at New- liaven 315. I consulted the, Consuls-General at Riga, at Warsaw, and Hamburg, and the Vice-Consul at Libau upon this- subject, and all were agreed that the system could 6e easily worked and should be put in operation. By th? emigrants themselves it would not be regarded in tjta< light of a hardship. They are one and all accustomed to have to provide themselves with papers, and they are filled with astonishment when they learn that, nothing of the kind is required of them in England. I was fre- quently asked by people in the interior of the country what papers and permission it would be necessary for them to have should they go to England, and they could hardly believe that nothing of the kind was necessary. It may be objected that this arrangement would prevent political offenders from taking refuge in England, and that this country has always taken a pride in providing an asylum for such persona. Their 3 N466 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Major W. E. numbers would, however, in no case be great, and the Evans- Consuls would always be able to use their discretion. Gordon, m. p. Until recently it was necessary for persons going to - South Africa to obtain passes and permits, and the 26 Feb. 1903. system, worked on the whole easily and well. In Libau, " for instance, the emigrants were brought Bfy" the shipping agent of the Union Line to the Vice-Consul. In the first place they had to show their Russian pass- ports. They then had to state : — (1.) Whether they had ever been in South Africa before. (2.) Whether they had been deported from there. (3.) The amount of money they possessed. (4.) Whether, if they were not in possession of suffi- cient money, they were in a position to support them- selves out there. On these questions being satisfac- torily answered, they were granted a permit. Some 30 emigrants out of a total 140 sent from ^ibau between the 13th February and 14th June, 1902 suc- ceeded in getting through, though they did not in reality come up to one or other of the above requirements. This was immediately reported from South Africa, and the ri^ht to give permits in Libau was withdrawn from the Vice-Consul by the Foreign Office, which remarked "that 32 passengers ex S.S. 'Goth,' bearing Libau permits, were to all intents and purpose® indigent Russian subjects," .and that the Dock Commandant at Cape Town had reported that, omitting two men who had £11 Os. Id. and £10 respectively, the average amount of money of the remaining 30 Russians amounted to about £1 5s. 6d. per head. In conclusion, I wish to express my grateful thanks to Mr. Alwyn Parker, attache to the British Embassy at St. Petersburg, to Mr. Woodhouse, Consul-General at Riga, to Mr. Hill, Yice-Consul at Libau, to Mr. Murray, Consul-General at Warsaw and his assistant Mr. R. E. Kinnes, and to Sir William Ward, Consul-General at Hamburg, for the generous help they gave me during the course of my inquiries. W. E. EVANS GORDON. THIRTY-SECOND DAY. Monday, 2nd March 1903. members present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman) The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon, Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. William vallan ce, Esq. Mr. Solomon Van Amstell ; recalled. Mr. S. V. Amstell. 2 Mar. 1903. 13350. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You now appear as the duly appointed delegate of the London Metropolitan Branch of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Opera- tives ?—Yes. 13351. You had not obtained that authorisation be- fore ?—No, not when I first appeared. 13352. How many members are there in the Union ? —About 28,000. 13353. Are they Jew and Gentile mixed ?—Yes. 13354. Can you give us the proportion at all as to what they would be ?—The figures could best be given by our secretary, who is present. 13355. {Chairman.) Is that London or provincial, or both ?—That is for the whole country. 13356. {Major Evans-Gordon.) How many members are there in the London branch?—1,500. 13357. Your secretary could separate the Jewish and Gentile?—Yes. Practically, the Jews number about 5 per cent., but, of course, I am open to correction from our secretary. 13358. 5 per cent, of the whole ?—Yes. 13359. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Of the 1,500?—Yes, in London. 13360. 5 per cent. Jews?—Yes, probably, subject to correction. 13361. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Is there a separate Vwisli branch of the Union, or do they all act together ? —At present they are acting together. 13362. There have been branches ?—Yes. 1<536\5. Exclusively Jewish?—Yes. 13364. Are they federated at all with the Jewish Unions?—-They were federated, but now it is all one Union. 13365. The statement you originally put in has been approved by the executive of the Union, and it may now be regarded by the Commission as an official state- ment on behalf of the Union?—Yes. 13366. As a delegate of the Union, do you desire to put in any further evidence ?—No, except to bring fur- ther points forward with reference to wages and methods of production. 13367. Contrasted between the alien and the Union rates ?—Yes. 13368. I should like to hear about that?—I have taken here a team of five trained men and a boy work- ing in a well-equipped factory, and lasting 860 pairs of common shoes in a week of 54 hours. The machine used is the Boston Laster. The wages these men re- ceive are: A machine operator, £2 5s. per week. 13369. {Chairman.) Each man?—'Yes. Two pullers- over, £1 14s. per week ; two putters-on, £1 13s» per week ; and one boy, 10s., making a total of wages for five men and one boy of £9 9s. This would work out at a fraction under 2s. 9d. per dozen pair. 13370. {Major Evans-Gordon.) This is the Trade® Union?—Yes, based on machine production. 13371. What class of shoe is that?—Very common. This is the shoe that comes nearest to the alien pro- duction, and that is why I have'taken it. 13372-3. The lowest class of your shoe ?—Yes. {Chairman.) Material does not come in there at all. {Major Evans-Gordon.) No, it is dealing exclusively with wages. 13374. {Chairman.) Is this the whole of the labour of all kinds on the raw material ?—It is taking one opera- tion known as lasting, but, I might say, it would work out exactly the same way. If you double the £9 9s., you get the whole of the production. All the rest is in proportion. 13375. This is confined to the process of lasting ?— Yes. 13376. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) And wages by time?—54 hours. 13377. Not piece-work ?—No. Under the old system, that is, the agreement of 1890, the price per dozen would work out at 3s. 9d. That is a difference of Is. per dozen pairs.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 467 ■ 13378. (Chairman.) Is the machinery the same?—It is all hand labour. 13379. All hand labour?—Yes. I thought you spoke of a machine called the Boston machine'? 13380. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You mean there was no machinery formerly ?—Under the old system of 1890 this same work would cost 3s. 9d. per dozen. 13381. (Chairman.) What is the difference between the condition of things now and what it was in 1890 ?— The Boston Laster has been introduced. I want to compare with that the wages received and the number of hours worked by the aliens upon the same class of work. 13382. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In the alien case, would this be their highest class of shoe or also their lowest class ?—It would be their normal. They prac- tically make no difference. They pay the same wages on the highest cla.ss, so far as the mechanical opera- tions are concerned. They charge more because the material costs more. 13383. The difference is in material and not in labour P—Yes. 13384. Now, will you give us the comparative state- ments?—They receive 2s. 3d. per dozen, working out at £8 Is. 3d. for 860 pairs, and it requires six men w.orking fourteen hours a day for six days to last this quantity. 13385. That is hand labour as against machine?— Yes. That means, of course, if they work for the fac- tory proper, their wages would come out at the rate of 28s. per week of 84 hours. That is, as against the native, who would earn, working under the same sys- tem, 30s. a week for 54 hours. 13386. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You change the standard. Fourteen hours a day with six men. How many hours a day produces 2s. 9d. per dozen?—'Ten and a half hours per day. Of course, this is under the most favourable conditions that the alien could possibly work, getting 28s. a week. As a rule, what happens is this, that the 860 pairs are given to a middleman at 2s. 3d. per dozen, and the middleman taikes them to the workshop, em- ploys other aliens, and pays them what he likes,, or according to what they will accept, prompted really by their necessity. Of course, the way this works is that the native, if he wishes to compete with the machine, under the old Trades Union conditions, has to lower the Trades Union prices. He refuses to do that, so what he does is to conform to the machine, and the only way the machine is beaten is by the cheap and plentiful supply of alien labour, because working cheaper they are able to beat the machine. 13387. Working longer hours for lower wages?—Yes. 13388. What you have quoted here is the highest class of ialien labour—the best class ?—Yes, I am actu- ally giving the best class, because I do noJ want to exaggerate in any particular. 13389. Could you give us an idea of how low they would go down, worked through the middleman?—I have known lasters to work exceedingly hard and aver- age no more than £1 a week. No native would accept that, simply because the £1 per week would not be sufficient for his requirements. 13390. Have you anything that you wish to say on that point—No, not anything further with reference to those wages and hours. I only want, from my point of view, to emphasise the point I tried to bring out, namely, that a continuation of this system will lower the standard of quality—a method which can beat a machine, and which can beat skilled craftsmen is, to my mind, a lowering of quality. 13391. And then the small employer, as against the big employer, working under good conditions, has always gob the whip hand, inasmuch as he can recruit as much of this labour as he requires ?—Exactly. Sup- posing a man goes into a factory, and says to an em- ployer, "You are paying 2s. 3d. per dozen for this work. I will take it out and do it for 2s.," and he does take it out, and do the work for 2s. ; he pays his men a lower rate. He does not intend to lose. He will maike others perform more work to make up for what he loses. 13392. (Chairman.) Who is " He " ?—The middleman. 13393. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He will take it out of his men?—Yes. 13394. And that process is constantly going on?— Yes, dragging down the prices and qualities. 6144. 13395. And dragging down the man who has attained Mr. g. V. a better position in this particular kind of work ?—Yes. Amstell. 13396. The tendency is to take him out of his em- M " ployment ?—Yes. Of course, the tendency is, as this ar> succeeds, so sweating, as I define it, goes on multiplying rather than decreasing. 13397. (Lord Rothschild.) Could you favour the Com- mission with the volume of the boot trade, that is to say, the amount of boots which are produced in the United Kingdom in the course of a year ?—It has been worked out. I give my authority as John T. Day, the • editor of the " Shoe and Leather Record." He is our greatest, expert on this ■matter', and he puts our native production to be forty millions per annum. 13398. Forty millions sterling?'—Yes. 13399. That is about it?—Yes. 13400. What i* the production in London ?—I could not say. I have no figure?. 13401. Would you say it was two millions sterling ?—- I should say it was; moire. 13402. Would you say it was three millions?—More than that. Of course, I may say I have no figures to- base that statement upon. 13403. You have no figures for that ?—No. 13404. You could not estimate how far the produc- tion out of London competes with the production ii\ London ?—There has been an increase all over the country in production, both in Leicester and in London- In. some particular qualities provincial centres triumph, but we still in London hold the premier position for the highest qualities. 13405. (Chairman.) Is there a gentleman coming who will know these figures better?—Yes. 13406. (Lord Rothschild.) If I understand you rightly the country competes with London for the lower class of goods?—No, the country does not, because the coun- try does not manufacture them. 13407. You said London still holds its own for the highest class?—Yes. 13408. Then the country does not compete with the higher class of goods?—Yes, it does. 13409. (Chairman.) Then the country does compete with London ?—Yes, in the higher class of goods. They do not compete in the lower class of goods. 13410. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) If I understand your evi- dence this morning right, you represent the aliens, as representing hand labour as competing with machine. labour ?—Yes. 13411. How far would you carry that? Do you say the alien labour isi chiefly hand labour. You hav& dealt with one particular process, namely, the process of lasting ?•—Yes, it is the same in finishing. All their finishing is done by hand in exactly the same way,, under the same conditions as their lasting is. They use no machines. 13412. The aliens use no machines ?—No machines at all. 13413. In no process ?'—There is one process in which it is absolutely necessary to use a machine, and that. is in the sole sewing. A native does that for him. 13414. Do I understand you to say generally that the alien uses no machines at all?—No machines at all. 13415. In any of the machine. 13416. Surely that is very inconsistent with a good deal of evidence we have had. Is it not the fact that machinery has introduced sub-division of labour r— That is right, 13417. And that sub-division, has fostered the .alien labour ?—The machine has split the making of a boot; into certain processes. 13418. Thirty or forty we have been told ?—Yes, but; there are two main processes which the alien carries. on, namely, finishing and lasting. 13419. Your evidence now goes on the basis that alien labour represents hand labour and native labour represents the employment where machines are appro- priate?—Yes. 13420. I do not know whether you have read the- evidence before the Commission?—I have read a good. deal of it. 13421.. It is very contrary to a good deal we have had. 3 1ST 2 processes?—Not a single.468 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. S. V. I do say you are wrong, but I only want to know Amstell. what your position is?—I only wish, to say that I am ——- considered an expert myself in the trade, and I have 2 ^far. 1903. present a gentleman who has been longer than I have, ~ and who is our secretary. 13422. I am content to take it from you that alien labour represents hand labour and not the sub-division which has been introduced by machinery, and native labour represents the intelligent use of machinery?— Yes-, and at the same time the hand labour of the alien is a labour of a very inferior kind. 13423. (Mr. Vallance.) Do I understand that by a rough estimate you find that there are about 5 per cent, of the members of your Operatives' Union in London who are Jews. That is very rough, of course? —-Yes, very rough. Mr. O'Grady will be able to give you more exact figures than I can. 13424. Whatever it is, does it represent an increase on past years ? Is there an increasing number ?—'The number of members of our Union shows an increase. 13425. Is there a proportionate increase of Jews?— No, I am afraid there hasi not been .a proportionate increase. 13426. The Jewish members of your Union of course -abide by the laws of the Union, as regards price, and "they receive the same wages?—Yes, they are all treated upon an equality, provided, of course, they abide by the rules of the Union, 13427. When you speak of the lowest class of work •done by members of your Union, are you speaking of work similar to the highest class of work done by the ^aliens by hand, or are they two different classes?—In the example I am taking here I am referring to two qualities' identical. 13428. Then the highest quality of the aliens--?— It would come under the same category, because they pay for their operationisi exactly the same rate of wages. The increased coist at which they are sold is due to the increased price of materials. 13429. Is the lowest class of boot which you are now .manufacturing in England a class which has been made for a great many years?—Yes, it has been made before the aliens came into the industry. 13430. Are not the aliens outside your industry en- gaged iin manufacturing an article which you have never manufactured ?—No, they have developed ' the •quality along a lower plane. 13431. {Chairman.) What does that mean? Does that mean getting worse quality ?—Yes. 13432. (Mr. Lyttelton.) The basis of comparison you have takeli is the employment of five men and a boy ?—. Yes, and in the other case six men. 13433. I understand that the wages of the aliens producing, at 2s. 3d. per dozen is 28s. on a working-day ♦of fourteen hours?—Yes, a week of eighty-four hours. 13434. That is fourteen hours a day?—Yes. 13435. I do not understand how you arrive at those figures. First deal with the wages. As regards 28s., is 28s. in your view an altogether inadequate wage?— Yes, for the work performed—eighty-four hours. 13436. Take it absolutely, not in relation to the -work performed at all?—Yes, it is totally inadequate. 13437. Even for a ten-hours' day?—Yes. 13438. Why?1—-Because on a ten and a half-hours' day our system of wages, agreed to by the employers and the men, would work out at about 30s. 13439. It is only with reference to the agreement •which your Trades Union ha s made with the employers that you pronounce 28s. to be inadequate ?—Exactly. 13440. Of course, in your view, that grievance is a©- 'Ceintuated by the fact of the longer hours ?—Yes. 13441. Do you speak from knowledge about the hours of labour of the alien?:—Yes. ■i 13442. How # do you arrive at them?—I have worked in their factories. 13443. When did you work in their factories ?—I .'stated in my evidence that I worked in one last vear in Spitalfields. 13444. How long?—For nine months, but I never worked those hotirs, because I was merely a designer there. 13445. How many of such factories to your own knowledge exist in that quarter ?—I should say scores* They are rather difficult to find, a great many of them. 13446. If they are difficult to find, and if you have not been there,, how do you know the conditions under which they are working ?—Because, as I stated in my evidence last week, the aliens have started a Union of their ownr and they suggested a maximum wage of 2s. 3d. per dozen); so I am taking their highest figure. 13447. You confirm your own experience, in Spital- fields by something published by the alien Unions ?— Yes, that is what they were striving for at the time they struck. 13448. (Chairman.) That does not touch the 84 hours per week ?—I only say it is borne out by mj experience and by the- experience of all the members- of the Committee of our Union.. 13449. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Your experience in Spi'tal- fields, speaking for yourself?—Yes. 13450. (Chairman.) Are the hours you have given and the wages earned applicable to what is called the greener or to the alien artisan after he has been here a long time ?—To the alien artisan after he has been here some lime. They do not apply to the greener at all. 13451. Then he has become a skilled, man?—Wheal he earns 28s. a week he is more or less a skilled man. 13452. The employer can get that work done at those wages. You do not represent but that an alien, with his habits of economy > can, live upon 28s. a week ; it is a living wage?—For him, yes. 13453. He has got to live, and he can live, upon it. I do not say you are wrong, and I express no opinion, but your object is to keep wages up as high as .you possibly can, within, a reasonable limit?—Yes. 13454. And you object to the employers getting labour at a low rate- of wage, although it is a living wage?—We object to the standard of living which 28s. would involve. 13455. You object to his getting a low wage, although it is a living wage?—For the alien, but not for the native. 13456. Now as to price. Has the result of the employer getting this labour at a lower wage made any difference at all in the price of the article sold ?—Cer- tainly ; it has lowered the price of the article. 13457. Do you object to that?—I do not object to that, but I object to inferiority. 13458. Do you object to the price being lowered?— No ; but, ait the same time, I should like to point out that this low price involves a. great many other things which we object to. 13459. Do you regard an article being sold at a low price as objectionable?—Not the low price. 13460. Of course, it is an advantage to the con- sumer ?—I daresay ; yes. 13461. Do you object to his interest being con- sidered?—I do not. 13462. Do you wish, by legislation, that the price to the consumer shall be raised ?—I suggest also- that the price would not be raised. 13463. Take it hypothetically. Do you suggest that by any legislation the price to the consumer shall be raised?—'I cannot see how legislation could raise the price. 13464. Please take my hypothesis. Do you object to the fact that it should be raised?—The price, you mean ? 13465. Yes ?—I do not see how you can. 13466. That is not quite my question. If you do not see how it can be raised, you can say, " No," you do not object ito it. Do you object to it?—But I want to know what I am admitting. 13467. I want you, first of all, to answer the question. Do you wish to see the price of an article to the con- sumer raised by legislation ?—If I say that the price of an article should be raised by legislation I am also inferring that the wages of the workmen should be settled by legislation. Now I am not going to do one thing or the other. 13468. If the effect of legislation is to raise the price of the article, do you wish to see that done?—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 469 13469. You do wish to see it done?—Yes, if as an .indirect effect of legislation. 13470. Will the consumer benefit by the rise in the -price of the article?—Yes. 13471. By paying more?—Yes, for reasons which I uftated before. 13472. Take the consumer. The consumer is a poor man. He can now get ?470 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. S. V. Amstell 2 Jiai'. 1905. say that the other standard undermines ours, and in undermining it it lowers our standard of comfort. 13509. {Major 'Evans-Gordon.) And the general con- ditions of life ?—The general conditions of life become deteriorated, and, apart from that, as I tried to point out, there is a broader question, that is outside of Trades Unionism altogether. I try to look at it from that point of view, and that is, that, in so far as inferior products are triumphant, so it acts on deteriorating efficiency and skill. From the broader point of view— from the point of view of the skill of our craftsmen—I consider it bad. 13510. (Chairman.) Do you mean if workmen are employed in producing the cheaper article there will be less men employed in producing the better-class^ article ?—Yes. 13511. That will not produce deterioration on those who do produce the better class, but it only lessens their number?—Yes, and in the end will destroy their capacity to perform the higher kind of work. 13512. Why ?—Because it will be necessary for them,, if they wish to live, to take up with this lower grade of work. 13513. They cease to perform the higher grade, andi. employ themselves in performing the lower?—Yes; it is what I should call the survival of the unfit. Mr. Thomas 0'Grajdy, called; and Examined. Mr. T. . 13514. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are the Secre- 0"* Grady, tary of the London Metropolitan Branch of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives ?—Yes. 13515. I asked a question of Mr. Amstell at the beginning as to whether he could give us any figures with regard to the number of Jewish and Gentile operatives in this> Union?—I think about the propor- tion Mr. Amstell has stated would be what we have now in our Union, in our branch in London, at least, and I should think you could take it as the whole of the Union—about 5 per cent. 13516. Would that be for the provinces?—Yes, I think that would be so. 13517. You have not got an accurate figure ?—No ; we have not divided them. We have not gone into that. We have treated them all on one level. 13518. What is the total number?—28,000. 13519. And the number in London?—About 5,000 or 6,000. 13520. With regard to the rate of wages between the alien or greener operative and those members of the Union, do you confirm the figures which have been given by Mr. Amstell ?—Yes. 13521. (Mr. I/yttelton.) The greener and the alien are not necessarily identical? (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, I meant the alien outside the Union ?—A man who has been here some time is actually working, you may say, 50 per cenit. under the English workman. You could average it at about 50 per cent., according to our agreements which have been, come to between the employers and the workmen. All our lists of wages have been matters of joint action between employers and workmen, and the alien that have been here now since 1890, as to some of them, during the last few years have taken to working at home under any condition, employing the greener labour and actually working, you may say, at 50 per cent, in many instances, lower than what the agree- ment is with the employers and the workmen in London. 13522. (Chairman.) If they employ the greener labour, and they produce the same article as your skilled men for whom you get the standard wage—— P— He would not produce the article to that extent or quality, but he would certainly attack the market. Even during the last week one employer informed me that he dare not mention that some of his work was London work, because it is getting about that this work is shoddy, which is made in the East End. They cer- tainly attack our market, both as regards employers and workmen. 13523. (Major Evans-Gordbn.) These men who have branched outi on their own account as small employers are employing greener and alien labour. Are they men who at any time have been members of your Union?— Oil, jes ; we had a Jewish branch in London—600 or 700, or, perhaps, 800 men, and those have dwindled away. They have adopted the sweating system. In 1890 we agreed to have workshops, factory hours, and conditions of labour, and to settle all matters of price between employers and workmen by the 'board. Since then, by the aid of these po^r wretches they bring over, even those who belonged to the Jewish sections at that time, have given up the agreement, and have started sweating on their own, and they get the men at cattle price, I suppose. 13524. I have been-inquiring closely for some time past into these matters of Jewish Trades Unions, which is a very interesting subject, and the tendency is for them to dwindle away from the Union, and to branch out on their own account, and then utilise the labour which comes in to work against the original Union agreement 2.—That is so. They go in for a system of outdoor work of sweating, as we term it, worse than ever. 13525. Have you come in contact with the condi- tions in America at all?—iNo ; but we have very good information as to their systems. 13526. They are suffering in America from precisely the same condition of things, I understand ?—I hope not. I was not given to understand that. I thought we had the most terrible portion of that style of busi- ness here in London. 13527. Anyhow, you confirm the figures given by Mr. Amstell ?—Yes. 13528. And you also confirm with regard to the mem- bers of the Union ?—Yes. 13529. Can you tell me if the Factory Act is evaded: by these aliens?—There does not seem to be any notice- taken of it at all down in the East End. 13530. Is a great deal of this work carried on in their homes?—The greatest portion of it is done under the- old system, which obtained prior to 1890, and, in fact, it is worse now. 13531. So the results of the stiike and the arrange- ment in 1890 have been to a large extent discounted by the conduct of these people since?—Yes. I might say, on the books of the London Metropolitan Branch in 1890, we had between 3,000 and 4,000 men, the great majority Englishmen. They have had to be out- of work through this system, travelling the country, and doing other jobs, such as work at the docks, and anything else, because the feeling amongst the English people is that they would object to a man coming home • to do his work in the style of prior to 1890, seeing that the workshop question has been conceded by the - employer. The general feeling among the English people is that they would object to the workpeople - working at home under the old style. 13532. (Chairman.) When was it the masters and men agreed to the workshops being provided by the masters V —In 1890, after the strike. The agreement wa^ that they would concede the workshops, and a list of wages was to be drawn up, subject to alteration, of course, or amendment by the Board. 13533. That was the London Federation ?—Yes. 13534. What was the name of the Secretary of the • London Federation?—John Arthur Craig for the Em- ployers' Association. 13535. I mean for the workmen ?—Myself, Mr. T. O'Grady. I have been secretary since that time. Mr. Joseph Stacey was secretary actually in 1890. 13536. (Mr. Yallance.) You are aware of the condi- tions of labour in the United States in this trade?---- No, only from information that I glean, nob from per- sonal observation. It is only from our members that go there and return and go back again, usually. 13537. Do the rates, which you claim, compare favour- ably in America?—From the information that I re- ceived from our members that have been and have comfi back here, they admit and acknowledge they can earn more money than they can here. There is a bigger in- centive given to them. They work very fast indeed, mind you, and every provision is made for^ them, whereas in London, in a factory where machinery is • used, we have really hardly a properly-equipped fac- tory amongst the whole of them, but, from, the inform a-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 471 tion I get, they Lave a chance of earning greater wages. 'Their wages are larger, and every inducement is 'given to them. 13538. (Chairman.) But everything is dearer?—Yes. 13539. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is in the boot trade ?—Yes. 13540. (Mr. Vallance.) How do the hours of labour compare ?—Much about the same; 54 hours a week. 13541. Is it a fact that the imports of shoes to this -country are yearly increasing?—They have been in- creasing up to within about this last year. They are steady and down now. 13542. (Chairman.) What was the cause of the in- crease in foreign goods imported?—American work. 13543. But what was the cause of the increase ?—The Americans sent over their American styles, and they took on. Of course, our English manufacturers now have, I think, got over that difficulty, because the Eng- lish manufacturers have just set themselves to work, and have put in the good article, and the English .article will stand now. 13544. (Mr. Vallance.) The competition of the Ameri- can manufacturers with those of England is a very serious matter ?—-It did tend to be that, but I think that will soon be over. There is some idea of the factory system, being brought .about in London by the workshops. One of our great objections to the alien here is. that, though he does the boot cheaper, he brings out such a style of boot 4hat it is not only getting London a badi, name, as I pointed out, but, eventually, it will get the whole of England a bad name, from this class of work they get nip. 13545. Is it a fact, as frequently stated in the Press, 4hat the English workman is' not so ready to adopt labour-saving machineryP Would that be cause?— I do not know that I should plead guilty for the Eng- ilish workman that he is not ready. He has no in- ducement, really. 13546. At any rate, the American competition is a •■very serious element?—It did appear to be, but I think we are getting over that. 13547. Have the goods made by the aliens continu- ously for many years been made in England by native labour?—Yes. The style of work that they attack is -what' we should call the medium, or common work, but not the trash. They meet the common or medium with what we call trash. 13548. Is it work which was formerly brought from ^Germany and continental countries?—No, I do not think so. I should rather say work that was brought "from Switzerland or Germany is far superior to what is made in the slop dens of the East End. 13549. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you the Secretary of "the whoJ^ Union?—No. 13550. Only the London branch?—Yes-. 13551. That is about 1*500 ?—Yes. 13552. How would those numbers compare with the numbers of the Union in 1890?—A great decrease. 13553. About what sort of a decrease?—About one- third of what it should be. 13554. (Chairman.) Does that mean about one-thirOfe of what it was ?—Yes, about one-third of what it was 10 years ago. 13555. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) W® that decrease in tlu> .aliens or in the natives ?—It would be amongst the natives that the decrease has occurred- With the alien, as we ■ should term him, because our friends who have been here some years we still term aliens, he has left, slicking to the Union, because he finds sweating is a more profitable style. 15556. How do you account for the decrease in the natives?—Driven out—actually driven out. I may say that in any dispute we nave ever had be- tween the employers and workmen our places are dimply raided, as it were, from that quarter, and the -work taken away. 13557. (Chairman.) What do you mean by that ?— They make a raid upon it, as you might say. They at- tend in great numbers, and make such offers to take -away, the work, that our endeavours to keep the work- shop question in some shops are futile. It is only by a better class of work being made by our employer® at -the present time that we are able to keep the workshops * open. 13558. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you know of natives Mr. T. who desire to be employed in the boot trade not being 0'Grady. employed ? Have you known many lose their work when —— they desired to keep it ?—Hundreds would. The aliens 2 Mar. 1903. will come in and make a price for the lot. So long as he can get the lot he can do them cheap, and he gets his greener, who has to work cheaper for him, and the whole sweating system is just as rampant to-day as ever it was, and, in fact, to-day it is worse. 13559. What do you call sweating ? Do you call 28s. a week sweating?1—No, the home work, where it is taken home—whether it is 28s. or 8s>. which is obtained. We have it on very good authority that in many in- stances the man does not get more than three or four shillings a week and his place to lie down in. 13560. Supposing the aliens were not here, or, at all events, in anything like' approaching the numbers they are now, could London maintain the production neces- sary for carrying on the trade?—I believe the same quantity of boots would be made, or thereabouts. 13561. Where would you get your labour from?—We have three or four thousand shoemakers that have abso- lutely within this last number of years, gone out of the trade. Even in our own branch we reckon that we have lost a couple of thousand men that have been driven out to other trades. 13562. That is to say there are a couple of thousand less?—Yes, actually had to leave the trade and find other employment where the alien cannot get it. 13563. What sort of employments' have they gone to ?—Dock work, tram cars-, railways, and everything. 13564. That is especially the case, I suppose, with the younger men,?—Yes. 13565. The younger men do not follow their father's trade?—They get out of it as soon as they can under the conditions prevailing. 13566. That is not only the case in the boot trade, but in other trades too?—Yes, but rather in those trades which can be undermined by the introduction of the pauper alien. 13567. Does a bootmaker now bring up his son to the same trade generally?—In these last few years there is a great feeling now against bringing up their sons to the boot trade. 13568. They think they can do better elsewhere?—- Not exactly that, but they think if they bring them: up to the boot trade they would do no good, because they feel confident that unless something is done their trade is bound to be brought down to a system upon which it is not fit their children should work. 13569. (Lord Bothschild.) Have you any idea of the number of shoemakers and bootmakers in the metro- polis who are not in your Union?—We cannot get at it exactly, but there must be a tremendous lot who are not. 13570-1. Have you any idea of the number of men who work at home?—No. (Chairman.) Do you mean natives?- 13572. (Lord Bothschild.) Natives and aliens. ^ I be- lieve, according to the Census of 1901, there were 8,000 persons in the shoe trade working at home. I do not know if that is accurate ?—That might be so. 13573. Thoise were not all aliens ?—No, but the greater portion were. 13574. There are only in the Census 3,000 aliens in the boot trade altogether?—I do not thinlc anyone knows how many are in the boot trade amongst the aliens. 13575. Then you do not care about the figures at all ? —They vary so. Boot manufacturers spring up day by day and are gone in the night in the East-End of London. 13576. I understand you to say you were not afraid of the American competition in England ?—I do not say we are not af raid of it. 13577. (Chairman.) Is that going on now?—Cer- tainly, it will go on, but at that time, when we were threatened, I think the English employer adapted him- self to the American style and made better styles himself as well. 13578. (Lord Bothschild.) Would it be accurate to say that the American competition represents something472 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. T. CP Grady. 2 Mar. 1903. under £1,000,000 sterling ?—'Yes, I think so. The figures can be given. {Major Evams-Gordon.) I have the figures exactly. To the United Kingdom in 1901 the Americans ex- ported shoes to the extent of 1,847,187 dollars. In 1902 they exported to the extent of 2.088,515 dollars ; so, out of a £40,000,000 production, they introduced £400,000. 13579. (Lord Rothschild.) It is under half a million. The American and foreign production hits you more in your export trade ?—-Possibly. 13580. It does not hit you in your home trade. Formerly you had a large export trade which you have comparatively lost?—Yes. I hardly think countries abroad would take our East-End work. I do not think they wouldc 13581. Do they take your better class of boots?—Yes, they would. 13582. But not to isuch an extent as they did before ? —No, our ordinary work that used to be done in the East-End we have lost since the aliens took to manu- facturing it and sending it out. 13583. Do foreign countries take your better-class goods to the extent they did, or does the American and foreign competition interfere with you in neutral markets ?—rI think our export of our own goods has fairly held its own. 13584. Not so large as it used to' be 1—I think it is much about the same. It has increased lately. 13585. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We can get the figures for that ?•—Certainly. 13586. (Lord Bothschild.) Do the members of the Trades Unions receive higher or lower wages than they used to in 1901 ?—With regard to the trade, it has gone through a transition now. 13587. It is in transition now ?—It has gone practi- cally through it. A deal of work which used to be done under a condition of statements and list wages is done now under weekly wages, and taking the weekly wage throughout the year, it would compare favourably with the previous wages paid on piece-work lists. 13588. You say wages1 compare favourably with what they did before?—Yes. 13589. They are not lower?—No. 13590. Therefore, whatever effect the alien immigra- tion may have had on the class of article produced, it has not seriously interfered, if at all, with the wages which the Trades Unionists get compared to formerly ? —Only that it has taken the entire work away from the native. 13591. (Chairman.) Lord Rothschild's question ap- plies to the native who still continues to be employed. There the wages are the same?—Yes, the members of the-Trades! Union have held our wages up, although plenty of our men have had to be sacrificed on account of the work being taken away. 13592. They have diminished in number, but the men who do remain get the same wages?—Yes, we have maintained the wages with a struggle. 13593. (Lord Bothschild.) Are any English boys ap- prenticed to the boot trade now?—Very few. 13594. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Your total Trades Union is 28,000 ?—Yes. 13595. Both country and town?—Yes. 13596. Do you know at Leicester and Northampton what the number of extra Trades Union men are outside your Trades Union—men employed in the boot trade outside the Trades Union ?—I could not give you figures 13597. Are they very large ?—Leicester is a thoroughly well-organised town, so the proportion of men outside the Union in Leicester would be nothing near what we have got in London. 13598. Is that so in Northampton, or is it less so ?— Northampton is not such a well-organised town as Leicester, but the number of non-Unionists, or those outside the Union would not be so great as those we have in London. 13599. There are in Londcn a much larger number 6f non-Unionists than in the country ?—Yes. Practi- cally we have lost our men because they have become demoralised. 13600. Now, just assuming the alien question non- existent in London, would you anticipate a serious com- petition from Leicester and Northampton ?—No. 13601. Why not?—Because their conditions of work- ing would be similar to our own. 13602. Andmore Unionists there, comparatively, than there are in London ?—Yes. There would not be that opportunity for the competition to occur. In the East End of London, for the time being, the wages adopted and the style of attacking the market, simply gives that use for the competition to ruin both the employer and the workmen. 13603. You have now 1,500 in London. Can you say how many you were in 1890?—I should almost say the greater proportion of them were members in 1890. 13604. But had you more in 1890?—Yes, close on. between 3,000 and 4,000. 13605. Of the loss of about 2,000, which, I take it, is- what you put it at, have the greater proportion or the- less proportion been aliens?—We had a very small number of aliens when we had the 3,000 or 4,000. They had separate branches of their own. 13606. Such as you had, have you lost them ?—No. 13607. They have also their own organisation?—It was practically all one organisation, but different- branches. We had some of the aliens, or the Jewish persuasion, we term them. They belong to lis, and they are still with us—a great proportion of them, about 5 per cent. We had a greater proportion in 1890 of the aliens. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That 5 per cent, would' be English Jews? 13608. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What loss has Trades- Unionism sustained in the matter of aliens since 1890. because I understood you to put it at a considerable figure?—Yes, our Union would have lost another 10 or * 15 per cent. We should lose about 10 or 15 per cent, at a rough calculation. 13609. Comparing what you have now with what you: had in 1890 ?-—Yes. We have lost quite the proportion of aliens that we have of native members. 13610. I want to know whether you think these aliens have gone into independent work of this trade, or have * they gone elsewhere. Have you any means of know- ing ?-—You mean those that have left us. 13611. Yes ?—We have cause to know that the • greatest proportion of aliens who have left us have drifted down into the sweating houses. 13612. Continued in the trade, but under non-Union • conditions ?—Yes ; and also a number of the English workmen have been forced to go down to the East End and go into these sweating dens, as we term them, and * work at that lower wage. 13613. Have any of these men become small em- ployers ?—Mostly among the aliens. 13614. I suppose, being small employers, they can calculate upon the certain arrival of a certain number - of these men every year?—Oh, yes, that is provided for them. I might say one very prominent gentleman % we had amongst the aliens is now, at the present time, seeing that when they want them they can have the • greeners, as we term them. 13615. (Chairman.) Now you have applied the term ■ "sweating den." Do you apply that to all buildings, houses, and rooms which do not come within your Trade - Union regulations ?—-We should apply the word " sweat- ing den " where it is home work, and no regulation whatever carried out, no time of beginning work, or" leaving off, as it were. In fact, of course, we have the evidence. 13616. I know your case as regards long hours, but L would the words " sweating den " be applied to all home • labour?—If it was within a factory at a lower rate of wages, but conformed to the hours that we do, and working in connection with machinery, we do not call that a "sweating den" in the light that we call the home, where one man has so many under him, and pays - what he likes, a " sweating den." 13617. But all home work, where the man has men under him, and pays what wages he likes, you would ' call a sweating den ?—Not necessarily so. If we had a native workman working at home with a properly apprenticed boy and proper conditions, we should not term him a sweater, but what we call sweating is when a man starts manufacturing and gets these greeners. 13618. A " sweating den " is a harsh term, and it- sounds unpleasant?—They axe dens.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 473 13619. Is it impossible that there should be a well regulated home workshop?—Not impossible, but very rare. 13620. There has been lately some new machine in- vented about a year ago, that has been introduced in Leicester and Northampton?—Yes. 13621. That is to supercede manual labour by machinery ?—I suppose that is the intention. 13622. It has done so in America ?—It does it here. That we do not object to. 13623. Was there no objection to it at all?—There is always an objection to an introduction of a new thing. 13624. But was not there at Leicester a serious objec- tion ?-r-The men thought they had a right to be con- sulted in the matter. 13625. Has it prevailed ?—I think they will get over that difficulty between employers and workmen. 13626. That is, dispossessing manual labour by machinery, and it produces an article at a cheaper rate?—Yes. 13627. Is that objectionable ?—No. We have to ad- mit, if the machine comes in and it has any success, someone has to go. We also make provision, as far as we can, when the employer selects those men he wishes to retain, that if we can assist the others we will. 13628. What is the particular portion of the boot manufacture that this machine applies to ?—To that of the lasters. 13629. Has it made a material difference in the price of the shoe ?-—That I could' not say. 13630. It is due to you to say that if that is so, you do not object to it?—We do not object to machinery. 13631. Even if it produces a loss of manual labour ? —We have to admit that if the machine has a success we have to bow to the inevitable. 13632. And if it produces at a less price, you do not object to that?-—No, we cannot object to that. We simply ask that we shall have fair conditions of hours and labour and wages. 13633. Now, you say there are higher priced wages paid to the workmen in America than here?—Yes, they would be higher. 13634. You do not enter into the question that money is of less value there, and that things are Higher priced ?—We know that. 13635. And have to live more expensively ?—Yels.; but when the money is spent there and spent here, the opportunities given there are greater than we have here. That is what we are led to understand. 13636. What are the opportunities ?—There is more money to> the workmen in comparison with what you get here. In Leicester and Northampton, these big centres that have introduced machinery, they have a minimum wage, and they endeavour to make that their maximum, whereas in America, if they have a wonder- fully smart man, they give him smart wages. There is not that inducement here. 13637. The smart man has to pay for the advantages. He pays more for his living. This excess of wages is equally an excess over Leicester and Northampton as it is over London?—Yes. 13638. The alien immigrant has not permeated to Leicester and Northampton in any numbers yet?—No, not yet-. 13639. There are returns to the Board of Trade, are there not, of persons unemployed in each particular trade ?—Yes. 13640. What has been the return of unemployed boot and shoe makers lately to the Board of Trade?—That -would be rather hard to give. When you say unem- ployed, our members for some time have been suffering -with the other trades, and have been partially unem- ployed. We cannot give a percentage of the unem- ployed, inasmuch as we have so many piece-workers. They can. go in for a portion of the week' sometimes. 13641. I do not know how the Board of Trade take those returns, but we can take them comparatively. Now, is trade at present in a bad condition, with respect to the number of unemployed ?—The trade is in what we should term a bad condition, but not much worse than last year, or in our own industry, for the last two or, three years. 13642. There are two stages of the greener's exist- ence. He comeisl over hjere sometimes not having touched the boot and shoe trade at all?—Yes. 13643. And yet he takes to it?—Yes. 13644. Of course, at the time when he first com- mences to devote his time to this trade he would, naturally, earn very little, because he would produce very little ?—That is so. 13645'. Then, also, his production at first would be of a very doubtful order when he is learning, and he cannot expect to produce an article which anybody would take?—But you sub-divide the work and give him a portion of something which, means labour to him. 13646. And very little skill?—Yes. 13647. And then he goes on learning and producing? —Yes, 13648. And after a time, I suppose, he is able to com- pete with the English worker?—Well, he certainly attacks them or undermines the English worker's posi- tion ; but there are plenty of aliens who have been in this country this last 10 or 12 years who, under fcHe system which is adopted in the East End of working, have improved very little from what they originally started at. 13649. That may be so in some cases ?—In the greater number of cases it is to the advantage of the sweater to prevent these men learning too much. 13650. How does the sweater produce the better class of work ?—There are grades of these men kept. 13651. Some train on, and are able to compete?— Yes, and then they start on their own and they become sweaters. They know how to get the men, the same as the others, by that time, and so the thing is gradually getting worse. 13652. (Major Evcms-Gordon.) I think Lord Both- schild asked you about the census figures of the numbers of people engaged in the boot trade. Do those figures include female mechanics, who, of course, womlil not be included in the Union?—I expect they would. It is the whole of those engaged in the shoe industry. ' 13653. Do you supply the Board of Trade with the figures of employed and unemployed in your Union ?— We give them an idea of it. We say whether partially employed, and about how many. 13654. It is not against the rules of your Union to supply all the information that you can ?—Oh, no; we give every information. Our Union is open to every- one. 13655. (Mr. Vallance.) In the highest class of trade is there any real competition with the native worker by the aliens P—With regard to our departments, what we call the machine - sewn department, of our better-class work, the English worker still holds his own in the very highest class of work, because the best work in the kingdom is still made in London. I know that we are getting a bad name for the other work. 13656. Does the alien participate in the highest class of work?—In very few instances. We have some what we should term aliens, but they have practically become Englishmen, and they can make this good work almost of a quality with the native. 13657. Then the real competition, in your point of view, is with the lower class of trade ?—Yes. Mr. T. O' Grady. 2 Mar. 190$. Mr. Thomas William Whatley, called ; and Examined. 13658. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you a member of the Executive of the London Clothiers' Cutters' Trades Union?—Yes. 13659. This Union is composed of Jews and Gentiles, is it not?—It is composed of both Jewish members and Gentile members. 13660. There are two branches, I understand — the 6144. contract branch and the wholesale branch ?—There are two branches in the trade, but not of the Union. 13661. The Union includes both branches ?_Yes. 13662 Can you give us any proportion of the Jewish and Gentile workers?—The proportion, roughly speak- ing, of Jewish operatives m our Union is 20 per cent. O Mr. T. W. Whatley*474 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. T. W. WKtitley. 2 Mar. 1903. 13663. What is the total number in the Union?— At;present we^re,:3§0 Strong/ . ^ 1366C1 T&K'is. XJiiion ?—^Iri London; :• 13665. Are you: part of a larger Union ?—No ; the ciders are organised, in Bristol,, and they" are organised iir.Leeds, but we have not a natioiial Union; we axe simply the London Union. , ( , .< 43666/ But: the''sanie people are organised dn Leeds and Bristol?—That is so. v 13667.- Iii'-Leeds there is a very very large ^ trade ih th$&- li$&, isthere not^^Therie i&- a large Organisation in Leeds of operatives in all branches; ^ ° ^ ^ 13668. You yourself are- a cutter in ,the 'contract brgjjch of £he clothing trade ?—That is so., , ' 13669. How -many years have ypu been in the trade? Since 1872^ with the exception of a period of six years, during which time I was in Her-Majesty's Service m th$; Qrdnance Department. . , ls3670.' So th^t your: ietxperience- extends over; the period of about 30 years, with a break of six years ?— That is so. 13671. (Chairrrian.) Are" there not tw6 classes of work—the contract and the wholesaleYes. By the wholesale, we mean the civilian . clothing; by the con- tract branch, we inean the Army, Navy, police, volun- teers, municipal work, and County Council clothing. :i$672: or .^vans-Gordon.) Then the other is mainly the popular trade,, with ordinary clothing?— With' ordinary civilians' wearing apparel of all grades. •13673. Is there . any; difference in* the- kind of men who work in these; Wb Ranches i?t%No. : With regard to cutters, the same class of *meh-work in both branches. There are Jewish operators in both, and Gentile operators in both. ;v. ..j..... il3674t< Will (you explain ;hbw it 'is . you have come forward as a witness- in;,this;. matter P^-T'hei. trade .as a wljgJ^is g^ipg^in^ s^^a.dep^oraibl^jcondition* from . the i^^i^crimina|e introduction, of alien labour, that at a general meeting of our Union, last December, a committee was formed to inquire into the subject, of which I wa§- elected secretary,- and it'is as a, result of ce^taifif IhVestigMiMs ^e have b^eof m^ing Since that insto the conditionofthings existing, particularly with regard to Government contracts, that we have placed ou2t©Ke&;i:a^ with the- Oompaission^ and desire* to,give ©videaoe. > 13675. Will you explain how -ty what M known as the ifair wage clause. .{Chairman') Is the' .contract branch representing certain houses who make contracts with the Govern- ment.?. IMtpjQT: -Evans-Gordon,) I understand both trades are carried on in the same houses. 13676. (Chairman.) I want to clear up what lies be- tween the two. One man contracts with the Govern- ment and employs labour under the conditions the Government impose', and the other is mere open employment, but nothing else ?—That is all, with the exception of two houses in the trade that run the wholesale branch and the contract branch together, but, as a general rule, the contract houses are absolutely distinct Jrorn , the wholesale. 13677. When you say " branch," I suppose you mean a contract house ?—Yes,: that is so. 13678. (Major Evans - Gordon.) There are two branches in the trade and only two firms in which both branches are conducted together?—That is so. 13679. I understand the wholesale firms have be- come so overstocked with workers and so on, and that the^competition is so great that the workers are seeking an outlet in the contract branch. Is that so ?—Yes. The workers in the industry, as a member of which I have come?forward^ give evidence, wish1 topoint out that the nature of things is such in the wholesale branch the aliens are flocking now into the conitract branch. 13680. They are overflowing 1—Yes. 13681. (Chairman.) They attack the wholesale branch first ?-- Yes', that is the poi#&. They have attacked-the wholesale branch and have reduced it to the deplorable condition in which it now is, and now they overflow into the contract brunch. 1 7 13682. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You ,are; specially In- terested in the contract branch ?—I am. 13683. How, is this 'competition showing - itself dnhthe contract, branch?—The. competition is showing itself by virtue of a process of manufacture, in the first place* which is,,utterly foreign to the idea on which contracts, are taken out. In. all Government contracts there is- a fair wage clause with regard to which the principal firnisain-the-Goiitract trade- 'make-ah'honourable-point in dealing fairly with their employees, instances cropped up during the late war on which no aetion wastaken, it t being a case of .national emergency and; so forth * but the contract branch is \ getting into it a certain class: of; employees .in the East End who are absolutely helpless,, tha-t, is to say, the cptrLditions uilder whicjieven Jewish operatives work themselves are such that, in their despair, they are appealing to us for assistance. 13684. (Mm Lyttelion.) The Jewish operatives -are * Yesas against this East-End type of firm which is coming into the contract tirade nowl ' - 13685. (Chairman.) When you say coming into, the contract trade you nieaii they get contracts from; the Government ?—Yes i during the war they got them, aiid» no action was taken by the Union because it was a tinier of;national emergency; but when the war was over'thSse- firms were retained on the contract list and this system of worjf was calculated to bring. the« contract system down to th§ same condition that; the wholesale is; ijip and in that case it was our duty to take action. ; 13686. Did :not those' firms have a contract with ^ther Government containing terms about the ' payment of wages ?—'Yes, the fair wage clause. ..V'.v- 13687. Did they kebp to tlibse terihs or break-them t —0n? the part of the Jewish Trades Union they say they broke them. With regard to oiirselves, it is the custom i'n every recognised contract in the trade that the. Trades Union rate' of wages' should be paid* which consists in our case of £2 a week for fifty hours' work, and a week's notice on either side, given, or taken. lift the eas^ of sone house in the East-End, although paying, £2 a week, they compel a man to: sign an agreement which, practically contracts him out of the law of the* land. # That is, to say, they sign an agreement saying that instead ,pf receiving a week's notice they shall be- dismissed at a minute's notice. 13688. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You attribute these new conditions in your branch of the trade to the exces- sive supply of cheap labour; is that your point'?—-That is our point : . ^13689; - Have-the wages diniinished in your branch"?— With^-regard to cutting, no; but with regard to» machinists, yes. • 1369Q. (Lord .Botfoschild.) The machinist's, work is sewihg Yes, our men will be put off from the best class of housesj and the same thing will happen as was* the case last Christmas, when mien were walking about unable to obtain work in a good house, and therefore they were reduced to go and accept employment wherever- they" could get1 it " in the lower class of whole- sale houses. f 13691. You .are referring to. cutters?—Yes. .'.With regard to the price of labour, I should like to bring before the Commission one point. I have, here a copy of the " Jewish Chronicle," and with regard to one dis- pute, ajDart from expressing any opinion as to the merits or demerits of it, we find. men. are advertised for to make soldiers'' overcoats at,2s..; 4d. each. We consider that, compared with the Pimlico standard of comfort, if they can procure aliens to make overcoats at 2s. 4d. each then it would mean lowering the standard of our English workpeople, below the standard adopted by Pimlico. 13692. (Major Evans- Gordon.) Is that price of 2s. 4d. a very low price and .a great fall in price ?—It is below the Pimlico standard. -. 13693. What, is .the* Pimlico standard ?—We have no means , of ascertaining what the Pimlico standard is, because certain classes of goods are put out to > contract, and our only method of obtaining that information would be by asking questions in the House of Commons. The answer as a rule obtained is that in the interestsMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 475 of tli© public service it is not desirable that that information should be given. • J 13694/ That work is piif o«t to contract, and., I sup- pose, is givbri to the lowest tender?—-Yes, and in doing that the "Government, no matter whether Liberal or Tory, unwittingly, is affecting, to a certain extent, the '"'i^ianiiaird., ".Bpfyre>"'hold. yy:j; 136&5* ((Jhairmqn.) i^Vliat you refer to in theJewish Chronicle" is .under the head of " Jewish Labour Notes," and it is from a correspondent. It is rather taking the sid,e of, the workmen, because it says this 2s. 44. is an under payment. It is not an advertisement "inthe ^ J^i^h; ^hr6'i£LcI^,^(biit'l£is tinder the Head of " Labour Notes ?>"—The only statement that I wish to lay before the Commission is this, that the " Jewish Chronicle " calls attention to the fact that a firm was advertising for labourers among the aliens, and the fjarice ^hi©h was to' be accepted by those aliensi when .they ;got their employment was a sum of 2s. 4d. for making an overcoat. That is as far as I go. ! 13696'. And as far as the newspaper is concerned it ■condemns the smallness of the price?—Quite so. ' 13697. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is not an advertise- ment^ in/ the " Jewish Chronicle" then at all?1—No, it :pf-4h% ; mdj I> put that hau as evidence to o&nifirm my statement.; vi •-•••• " ^ - - ' 13698. (Mr. Lytteltbn.) What do you say with regard to the Pimlico * standard ?^The Pii^Hcofx^ahdard is subject to: small complaints at times, but it is, on the whole,, a lair! o^e. ^ workpeople esirnr^ a "wage which, while it-may be improved iin some instances, is! being reduced to the level of the contractor. The contractors get'k sup^lyf of chea-p laSoui*from thd aliens,1 hence it ' is the tendency to bring thfe wages1 down in the industry. . 13(d9.9; (Chairman.) Is the Pimlico standard carried out .with the contractors?- 13700. (Major: Evans-Gordon.) In the establishment &t Pimlico a large number of goods are made, are they tot ?—That is so. , 13701. What they cannot make there they put out to contract ?—That is so. 13702. And there is a standard at Pimlico of hours of labour and employment generally,, and as. tp; the places where they live, which is you say a fairly good oii£ ?—Yes. ^ d^TO^. .Is . that a.-^fefiiwilfujd jfcliftt you. would like . to see observed-throughout the trade ?-^—Yes. 13704. That standard is now jeopardised by the fact of these people coming into that- trade ?—That is so. 13705. Low rates of wages and long hours of work, ;;of: w*hich .the ,2s4 4d. per .overcoat is. a sample ?^-*Yes. ' 137Q6y (Ckairman.) Has there been any reduction as -yet ?^-The reduction' has been in this way, that ten- ders are' called for from certain sets of firms that get on to the ; contract list. In my experience in the Ord- nance Office at Woolwich, I am aware of this fact, that when tenders are opened the lowest are, as a rule, ac- cepted. 13707. (Lord Boihschild.) By the Government ?—Yes. In this case, we think it is only fair that the Govern- ment should not compel contractors to tender for goods at a1 lower cost even than what the Government are producing themselves, considering the facilities which the Government have in the national workshops. 13708. (Chairman.) T¥ in the case of contracts made at this lower price, is there not in these contracts a term' as to fixed wages?—That is so. .f; ; 13709, Then,. why should you interfere ?—On these grounds : that -this clause is being evaded. 13710; (Mr. LyUeHon.) Then it is the non-enforce- ment of the fair wage clause in sub-contracts that you complain of ?—Yes ; and my point would be this, that through the ignorance of these people of English ways, metho.ds, and systems of working, as a matter of fact, they are utterly helpless, and they' are absolutely the pr^y. of: any employer of labour who chooses to take advantage of: their, helpless condition. • 13711. (Chairman.) Is not your remedy to tell the Government' to see-to it, and see that the proper wage clauses are carried out ?—With regard to that, another pointwarises : The ^Government - may appoint ^inspectors, and do appoint inspectors ; but an inspector came for- ward here,, and said that Jewish machinists were earn- ing £3 10s. a week. We fail to see utterly,, considering that that is the evidence of a Government inspector 6144. here, that he possesses sufficient practical knowledge Mr. T. JK of the subject. I can hand in, if necessary, a. list, of Whatiiy. the prices paid by a low firm. The evidence given by * —^ .that inspector shows that the inspector did not possess 2 Mar. 1903. a sufficient practical knowledge of the subject to enable -— him to pass an opinion. He may be very good with regard to sanitary conditions, and things of that sort, but he could not really have a practical knowledge of the ^ trade to enable him to pass an opinion. 13712. (Lord Bothschild.) He was not alluding to yoiir particular trade, was he, the cutting trade ?—The cloth- ing trade, as a whole, is affected. ; 13713. (Major JSvarts-Gorchn.) He-quOted rates of wages which you say do not exist ?—Which do not exist. 13714. Will you hand in that statement you refer to ?—I hand in a " Statement of Prices." The Jewish operatives claim that a fair contractor was paying from 3s. to 3s. 6di for making a khaki jacket, but; through alien labour, and through thei unfair system of Work, the price was reduced to Is. 9|d.', of which the Jewish operatives themselves complain. 13715. (Chairman.) Was that in fulfilment of a Government contract •?—Yes, in, fulfilment of a Govern- ment contract. ,13716. (Major Mvans+Gordom)-It is the "greener" coming in and destroying the position of the Jewish operative?—That is so. 13717. (Chairman.) You say there was a reduction in price from 3s. 6d. to Is. 9|d. ?—The contract was not signed for 3s.. My point is this, that a fair firm in London were in the habit of paying 3s. to 3s. 6d. By the ex - ploitation, to use no other term,, of alien labour, a firm might be able to pay, say, Is. lOd., which lowers the standard of work and comfort of those employed who were getting 3s. ' 5 1 13718. We are dealing: now with the Contract Depart- ment?—Yes. 13719. Have the contractors power to carry out the contracts) at these lower prices or not P—The contract was made at a certain price as between the contractor and the Government. ' 13720. Between the contractor anil the Government, was there, what you call, a proper price, namely, 3s. ?— That would be a question for the Union1 to answer them- selves.' 13721. What has the Union to do with it ? Have the Government performed their duty in making a contract so a,s- to carry out the standard rate of wages ?—Our complaint now is this, that the Government, although doing what they are within their rights'in doing, that is to say, accepting the lowest tender, at the same time, that lowest tender is, by alien labour, forced to such a price that it brings down f the Jewish and the British operative engaged in the industry. .. 13722. I do not think we are on the same line. I expect what you mean is this, that there is no com- plaint as between the Government and their contractor ; but you attack the arrangement, as I understand you, between the contractor and the sub-contractor ?—Our complaint is against the contractor, that, by means of alien labour, he is enabled to send goods into the Government at a price which causes the Government, in accepting the lowest tender, , to take work from the hands of English people. 13723. If that is so, does the contractor make a con- tract with the Government, to pay a fair standard or Trades Union rate of wage, or not?—He does; there is a clause iii his contract which binds him to pay a fair rate of wages. 13724. Then the complaint is, that the sub-con- tractor, having made that contract (and there is always a penalty clause in a contract), does not fulfil that contract?—That would be a question upon which I would paiss no opinion. 13725. Then, what is your complaint ?—We aire com- plaining of the wholesale immigration of aliens flock- ing into the country. 13726. That is not the point. What is your com- plaintj and in respect of whom is the complaint made ; is there default in. not paying standard wages ; is it the contractor-with the .Government not fulfilling his contract, or the sub-contract07* not fulfilling; his con- tract; with the contractor?:—From the cutters' side of the qiiestion, the contractor with the Government signs the fair wage clause, and he is fulfilling, the samt> terms as. are acknowledged by, every other contract^! throughout the industry. 3 0 2476 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : \ W. 13727. Does he, having signed that contract, fulfil it, Whatley. or not ?—No, inasmuch as the men working in the em- —— ployment of one of these firms are forced to sign an 2 Mar. 1903, agreement, otherwise they are under penalty of losing -- their situations and of being dismissed at a minute's notice. 13728. As between the Government and its con- tractor; I understand there is a clause that he shall pay a fair, amount of wages, that is, a fair amount of . wages per week or per person ; is that fulfilled ?—With regard to the cutting branch, yes; but with regard to the machining the men themselves say no. 13729. I am not on the point of dismissal, but I am on the point of the rate of wages paid. As regards the machinists, is that contract fulfilled or not ?—The men would say no. 13730. What do you say?—I should say no. 13731. Have you represented this to anyone ; to whom have you brought your complaints, except to us ?—Com- plaint has been made to the War Office, and a deputa- tion attended the other day on Mr. Hayes Fisher, at which it was represented to Mr. Hayes Fisher that clothing contracts were sometimes given to men in the East End who did not pay a fair rate of wages, and Mr. Hayes Fisher said that his personal preference in giving contracts was to give them to good employers who paid good wages for their work. Our contention is this,, that the Government, to a certain extent, by employing this low class of alien labour, act to the detriment of the English worker. 13732. The Government do not employ the alien labour; the Government make the contractsP—The Government employ a contractor who, in his turn, em- ploys this low class alien labour, and by that means ■goods are produced at a price which acts to the detri- ment of the standard of the English worker. 13733. The contractor either fulfils his contract or he does not. If he does not fulfil it the Government ought, to dismiss ihim, and you have taken the proper course in making complaints. That is exactly what you ought to do ?—That is so. Then, may I refer to the wholesale portion of the trade ? 13734. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Before we leave that can you suggest anything which we can do on that point that you cannot do better ? Your grievance is a oreach of these sub-contracts and employment at unfair wages, which the men are bound to accept ?—That is so. 13735. That is your Union's interest to see to. I suppose there is a penalty clause? A certain propor- tion of the penalty goes to the informer for each breach. Why does not your organisation, if it be the fact that such breaches are committed, inform with regard to it, and stop it ? It seems to me that your machinery and your interests would be amply sufficient protection for that?—That is so ; and therefore, as a rule, the cutters are not affected with regard to the reduction of wages, because we are strong enough to hold our position, by reason of the clause, as you say ; but where we are affected as cutters is this: this class of work gets into the hands, or is> going into the hands, of what we term unfair contractors, and we term them "un- fair" for this reason, that if they deal fairly with us, who have a remedy, they do not deal fairly with those greeners and the alien labourers, who have not a remedy. In the first place, they are unorganised, and they are ignorant of the English systetm, so that it would be impossible for them to avail themselves of the fair wage clause in the same way that we should. They have no standard rate of wages, and they have nothing to go upon, and a sysitem prevails amongst thiean which can be proved afterwards that one man takes one, two, or three men to help him out with a certain class of work under conditions which are totally un- known on our side. 13736. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Will you tell us how the wholesale is affected ?—Since I have been in the trade, the wholesale prices "have been falling in both branches of the industry, both with regard to cutting and with regard to machining. But, speaking particu- larly with regard to cutting, firms are springing up here, there, and everywhere. Anyone who works in this business can see that they are cutting and tearing themselves, as the previous witnesses in the boot trade have said, for what work there is amongst themselves, and gradually, one by one, reducing prices. Houses in the trade who have to meet competition from these people in self-defence, are obliged to make arrange- ments, and so on, in order to meet this competition, and that is lowering our standard of comfort, as we term it. 13737. Can you tell us what the actual fall in wages and the increase of hours represents?—I have no hesi- tation in saying that, taking the average wholesale trade all the way through on piece-work rates and week-work rates, that where a cutter in 1872 was in a position to earn £2 a week, at the present day if he earns, on an average, 30s. a week all the year round, he would consider himself a fortunate man. That is in the wholesale, with the exception of a few men who are in regular employment all the year round. 13738. It is a season trade very much, is it not?— To some extent, yes. 13739. There is a busy season and a slack season?— Yes. 13740. Then what have you to say with regard to machinery?—With regard to machinery, in the cloth- ing trade we acknowledge machinery; we work it for all it is worth, in combination with the employer, and we have no objection whatever to the introduction of machinery. 13741. What machinery do you refer to?—Band knives, for cutting, the same as you see in Pimlico. 13742. That is the chief machine ?—There is another machine which has been introduced to which we do not object, and that is what is known as the chalking machine, for marking out the cloth. 13743. Then there is the sewing machine ; but I sup- pose that has to do with the machinists ?-—Yes. 13744. You are talking now of the cutters ?—Yes, 13745. With regard to machinists, have wages fallen and hours increased in their line, too ?—The complaint amongst the machinists—although, of course, I am not entitled to speak for them—is, amongst the native workers, that prices are lowered, and that the general condition of the industry has deteriorated. 13746. How long does it take to teach one of these new arrivals one of these processes of machining?— That is a question upon which I cannot express an opinion, but with regard to cutting that does not apply to us. 13747. Basting and pressing are other processes?— They are factory processes. With regard to cutting, we never see these new arrivals until, in process of time, they evolve as cutterfs working in some low-class firm and at a rate of wages which we never think of working at. 13743. They are dragging you and your Jewish col- leagues down ?—That is so. 13749. As to the question of remedies, what do you suggest ? Have you thought this out in your com- mittee?—We have thought it out, and we would ask for this: We have no objection whatever to the intro- duction of the foreigner, because Englishmen go abroad, and we have no objection to the foreigner coming here ; but what we do object to is being brought into contact with this mass of unskilled labour, which is being used to our disadvantage. We should suggest the effi- ciency test. That is this'*. If I go to America and I have been employed here as a cutter, I can produce at once my credentials, either certificates from the firm I have worked for or my character from a firm, or something in that way, or some certificate from a trade society. Subject to my efficiency, I take it that I could get employment. And we consider, also, a small pecuniary test should be adopted. Men come here who have nothing when they land, and they are abso- lutely at the mercy of anyone who chooses to employ them. In the East End, where I work, it is no un- common sight to see long strings of these people walk- ing along the streets. They are met at the docks and taken away, and what becomes of them no one knows. 13750. They are the ready-made victims of these low prices and sweating conditions?—That is so. 13751. And have to do more work in the time, pos- sibly, instead of their doing more work for more wages ? —That is so, and I only think it right to point out that the Jewish operatives are as much affected by the question as we are, and that it is not a question as between Jew and Gentile, for if it was I would not come here to give evidence. I believe in an open system of free trade, and I hope that my evidence will be taken in that spirit.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 477 13752. Your Jewish colleagues are affected as much as you ?•—They are in accord with us, because they are enjoying what we may term for the moment a standard . of comfort that it has taken the Trades Unions of this country 100 years to build up ; and they see how very desirable it is to maintain that standard, and we are working with them in endeavouring to maintain that standard. 13753. (Lord Rothschild.) I think you said that the ^cutters acknowledged the introduction of machinery ?— That is so. 13754. I think more machinery is used in Leeds than in London?—I think not. I have not been in Leeds myself, and I am not in a position to say, but even if it was so-, we know that the cutters in Leeds have no objection whatever to machinery in the trade being used for, practically speaking, all kinds of work. We do not fight against the introduction of machinery. 13755. You said there were 350 members in your Society ?—That is so. 13756. How many cutters are there in London?—As far as we can get at it, between 700 and 800. We are •about 50 per cent, strong of the trade in London. Our membership has fallen somewhat of late years, and one of the reasons of the membership falling off is that men were beginning to get disgusted by the state of things prevailing in the trade. They found themselves that; owing to the introduction of alien labour and so on, these small firms were starting up, and men had to go into them to work. They accused us of not endeavouring to meet this state of things, and their membership fell off ; but at our last meeting, since we have taken this in hand, the interest is so great that we had an increase of 40 new members at one meeting, 10 at least of whom were Jewish operatives. 13757. I suppose the cutting by machinery has cheapened the price of clothing, has it not?—Yes. 13758. Not only on account of the machinery itself, but I think it enables you to make more use of the cloth and there is less waste?—Under the old system with the shears they were very particular as regards the quantity of cloth used. An economical cutter, that is to say, a man who is economical in the use of his cloth, and so on, is the man whom the employer likes, because he studies his interest. He is producing more than the man who would cut the cloth to waste, and, therefore, he cheapens it. 13759. But the machine cutting has enabled the sub- division of labour to go on in the manufacture of cloth? —Yes. As regards the actual manufacturer, apart from the cutting, it does not matter to the men who make the coat how it is cut. He proceeds to do that by what method he likes. r 13760. But it enables you to cut more backs and more arms alike. The machine cutting has tended to cheapen clothes ?—-Yes, it cuts more at a time. We recognise that io competition with other countries we must assist our employers bv using machinery; we have no wish whatever to stop machinery ; we welcome any improvement. 13761. To go back to another subject, that is to say, the contract price, is your contention that the Govern- ment do not give a sufficient price for the articles originally, so as to secure what you call the fair wage price ?—-Upon this subject, my lord, I would say this : The London County Council under their contract sys- tem appoint inspectors. These inspectors have power to go, and do go, into the contractors' factories and to speak to the operatives, and any complaints which they have are brought to the notice of the Council; and we think, considering the resources of the country, it would be no great injustice if Pimlico were to appoint inspectors-—men with a practical knowledge of the trade—and no matter where these contracts go>, whether into the hands of Jewish firms or Gentile firms, that, at all events, they 'should make sure that the conditions were such as conformed with the clause which they sign. ——What I want to know is whether the price the Government pay for the articles enables the person who takes the contract to pay the fair wage ?— 13762. (Chairman.) The witness has made no com- plaint on the ground that it is not a fair price ?—If that is the case you are putting to me I tfegin to see the point. With regard to a contract,-a tender is sent in by a manufacturer. In the case of a fair firm who employ both Jewish and Gentile labour and pay a fair price Mr. T. W. all round, they may be able to put m for a pair of Whdtley. trousers a sum of 7s. 2d. Then there is another firm that indiscriminately employs alien labour, in whose 2 Mar. 1903. factory a condition of things for the workpeople's com- — fort does not prevail, and they may possibly put it in at 6s. lOd.—a difference of 4d. The Government gives out the contract to the manufacturer quoting 6s. lOd., and in that case they consider that they have done their duty so long as he conforms to the £2 a week standard. Then, in that case, we, as cutters, would have nothing to do with it; but with regard to the machinists' side of the question, they are so dis- organised and the competition is soi keen among them to get employment that they accept it practically under any circumstances, which enable this contractor to undercut the fair one. 13763. (Lord Rothschild.) Your contention is, if I understand you rightly, that the Government ought not to give the contract to a firm, whether it be Jew or Gentile, unless they pay what you call the fair wage ?— That is so. 13764. Under those circumstances they would have to eliminate all the lower contractors, the 6s. lOd. con- tractors if you like?—The 6s. lOd. contractor, under such conditions, would have to be eliminated. • 13765. Do they now give out any of the 6s. lOd. con- tracts 1—Practically in all the work that is now going on it is 6s. lOd. work. 13766. (Chairman.) In all contracts is there not a clause that the contractor shall pay the fair standard rate of wages?—Yes, that is so, and with regard to the cutters they do, but with regard to the machinists, through want of organisation amongst them, they are as it were at the mercy of these firms. 13767. Does the contractor break his contract with the Government or fulfil it as regards the machinists I —He practically cannot enter into any. 13768. But he does enter into it ?—In order to pay a fair rate of wages there would have to be some estab- lished rate. They may agree between the masters and the men as to the price to be paid, and then we should! have a standard at which to fix the fair rate of wages. 13769. That is not the fault of the Government. What do you want the Government to do more than they do do ?—If thei Government were to appoint in- spectors, the same as the County Council, to see that their work was manufactured in proper workshops* under proper conditions it would help us. 13770. Did you tell Mr. Hayes Fisher of that when; . you saw him ?—I was not in that deputation. 13771. But did the deputation tell him ?—I' cannot say what happened, because I was not there. 13772. (Lord Rothschild.) I take it from you that the Government ought never to give a 6s. lOd. con- tract?—No, I should not suggest that. If the 6s. lOd. contractor were paying labour a proper price, and. by ; economical management in his factory, and by the use of machinery and by looking, as we say, all round, he* improves his condition of things, then in that case I say let the 6s. lOd. contractor have the job. 13773. But, so far as I understand from you, the • 6s. lOd. contractor only pays the cutter the fair wage, but he is able to get the machinists to work at u&fair - wages ?—That is precisely so. 13774. While the 7s. 2d. man would pay fair wages > all round ?—That is so. 13775. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) From which class do you suggest these inspectors should come ?—I suggest a man should be appointed as inspector who has a practical knowledge of the trade, and is educationally qualified, say, by a test in political economy, and a man who could represent both sides in a fair manner; that is to say, the Government who employs the contractor and the contractor. 13776. You would appoint them from the operative class, I suppose ?—Yes, I would have them from the operative class. 13777. (Mr. Vallance.) Assuming that the fair wag© clause in the Government contracts was honourably observed by sub-contractors and others, would that relieve the main grievance which you have ?—The fair wage clause is very good, but the fair wage clause, in our opinion, hardly goes far enough. Some munici- palities are adopting, and pressure is being put upon478 BOYAL COMMISSION-ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr * T. W. WhcitUy. 2Ma,*U9(r the Government By deputations and so on, to adopt whatis known as the Trades Union clause. The Trades Union clause would, as it were, apply on both sides, ■ and Trades Unions would fix a fair rate, which they would do by competition (competition would make them fix a fair rate); an agreiement should be drawn up, and labour should not be, as it were, exploited for the pur- poseof; cheapness ; but, in other words, the worker should make use of machinery and all the modern scientific methods ; and economical management of factories should be a factor in the question, and quality as weir as cost should be a factor in the question. We know, as a matter of fact, in the trade, and we are assured of it, that cheap labour means bad work. If ; the , standard of quality could be kept up by cheap ■ i labour there may be something to say for it, but cheap labour does mean bad work. 13778. In the event of a fair wage clause, such as you are, advocating, being inserted in Government con- tracts and being honourably observed, would you then have any grievance?—We should not. 13779. In what way is the alien competition at pre- sent affecting your trade ?—That is a point that I wish to point out. Alien competition affects our trade, be- cause, in the fireit place, it would be impossible to fix a Trades Union rate, as they have no Trades Union to go to, in the proper sense of the word. A few Jewish operatives form themselves into a Trades Union (I am speaking with regard to our trade), and outside of that they have to meet a large mass of competition from their countrymen. Union after union has been formed amongst them and disbanded. Very few of them. stand. 13780. I ain putting it hypothetically. Assuming •you are- satisfied* with regard to the conditions of the ^contract, .and you are satisfied that those condi tioias can he observed, then^ would you have any objection to .raise to the aliens participating in that labour?—None -whatever. They can come and participate. 13781. Then, are the aliens who are employed now, or are the workers, aliens and natives, in excess of the 'needs of the trade ?—With regard to that question, con- sidering that there is always a proportion of cutters out of work, considering that there is always a proportion •of machinists out of work, I should say that the opera- tives were in excess of the demand, and they are still being added to every week. 13782. From your standpoint, the alien is displacing the native porker, and the native worker is cut out of the work ?—That is so. 137815. Would you say that was so to any large ex- tent?—In the wholesale branch, yes. In the contract branch it is very small, but, considering that the con- tract branch is now being started upon, it is our duty, in any constitutional methods we can, to protect the "interests of the contract branch, and protect the in- terests, of the fair employers and ourselves. , - 13784.. Supposing the alien had not entered into your trade at all, would there have been sufficient workers to produce what you are producing ?—Yes. 13785. (Mr. Lyttelton.) I want to summarise your (•evidence,, to make sure that I understand what you say. In these Government contracts tenders are ac- cepted?—That is so. , - 13786. Sometimes, in your view, tenders too low are accepted ?—Yes. 13787. As regards your organisation of cutters, it is immaterial that the tender is too low, because you are strong enough to look after yourselves ?—That is so. 13f38. As regards the machinists' branch?— They are not strong, and they are not organised; there have been attempts, but very weak attempts and these men, who are willing to • organise ask us to help them. I have a balance-sheet in iny pocket, in which we grant them a sum of money, and. we assist them in every way ;to -better their con- dition, but their efforts are rendered null, and void by the fact that if they organised 100 this week another shipload comes over the next. 13789. The machinists' part of the industry in itself is very weakly organised, and you say they are now affected by the immigration which is taking place ?— Yes. '• • • - 13790." Is it your conclusion that the result of that, ivl the .-fi^st place, is, that the wages clause is not operative, ' because' you have got no standard . That is ur. " 13791. It seems to me to point rather to the wages clause feeing altered in form 1—That is so. 13792. So that, for instance, von would simply in- sist on a fair wage, which, I understand, is done now, and no wage below certain scheduled amounts for cer- tain portions of the business ■ should be given ?—That precisely the question, upon London County Council principles. The London County Council are large con- tractors, and in every sense of the word their contract policy is a good one; and, so far as we know, every- thing is carried out satisfactorily, I may say> with regard to the Oounty Council schedules, that their schedule for cutters is £2 2s. ; so that if a firm gets a County Council contract, the best class of men are naturally put on, on account of the increased wage, of which the Oounty Council gets the benefit in the work 13793. Your point, so far as a fair wage is indefinite, could be met, could it not, by scheduling the fair w.age, which should be appropriate to the different' classes of industry ?—Yes. May I say that that is a point upon which I do not think I made myself clear* W# have no complaint against the contractors paying what is called a fair wage, but they can call anything a fair w;age, because the people are not organised ; it depends on what is a "fair" wage. 13794. (Chairman.) You said with regard' to alien immigration that you had certain remedies, and one was what you called a qualification test ?-—Yes. 13795. These alien immigrants come over here, and many of them have been agricultural labourers ; they become greeners in the first instance, and they turn into a trade, be it the clothing trade or the boot and shoe trade, and they train on till they become more or less—we will call it less—skilled, but still skilled to some extent; what qualification test would you apply at the port of debarkation to an agricultural labourer from, say, Roumiania, who comes and says, " I have no trade at all ?—'With regard to an agricul- tural labourer from Roumania, if he said he was an agricultural labourer, I should suggest that there should be a pecuniary test. If an agricultural labourer goes from England to other countries he would have to . meet that test. 13796. You could not have a qualification test in the boot trade or in the clothing trade for every foreigner who comes into" our ports ?—-If a man comes to the Custom House and says, "I am a tailor,'' the official would say, " What are you in the tailoring trade. He would say, " I make a garment right through, or " I have been working on the sub-division principle." Then he would be asked, "Where do you work, and •whom did you work for?" I am not acquainted with the nature of foreign countries, but I would suggest that there would be some means of showing that he left his country in a proper, manner, or that he would have some means of proving that he was a respectable tradesman ; and as such we would welcome him. But a lot of people have left Russia, for instance, because they object to the Russian military service. 13797. Take, for instance, a ship arriving with 200 male immigrants on board, and it so happens that there is no man on board who says that he is a tailor ; would you call upon them to qualify for the tailor test ? That would fail at once, because you could not put them all through) a test belonging to a trade to which they did not belong, could you ?—No. 13798. And you could not put them through the boot- making test if there were no bootmakers, could you?— That is so. 13799. But if you did get a tailor, what test would you subect him to?—The man has simply to prove what he was. 13800. He says: "I am a tailor, and I have_worked at Bucharest" ; what more would you want?—I should think there might be trade guilds. I have not been on the Continent to know ; but if I was going from here to Bucharest it would be a very e&sy thing tor me to find an English tailor, there, and for me to walk into-his shop and say, "Do you want a tailor? Me might say, " What have you been m England ? ^and I would say at once, "A cutter." Then he would say to me, " Can you draft a pair of trousers? and I should'draft a pair of trousers to prove I was qualifaed. 13801. But you would have got to Bucharest and got into the tailor's shop, arid then, as between you and; the tailor, you .set up a test. You want the. Custom House officer to. set up a test before the mm gets into London at all. That is the difference. How. is. the Custom House officer to apply any test of: a mans effi- ciency to come to compete, with the trade liere beyon-.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 479 the fact that he has been working in Bucharest ?- coiil&%ferf "easily be done. -That 138021"How r—When I say''" 'Very "easily," it is only a working-man's suggestion ; but I should suggest this : that the man be detained at the port of debarkation, aiM let^^om©3 Mie- o#;our officers or any other skilled man in -the trMe'go down and interview him. If l went; itQv the i; Qustom House officer and said, " This nian hais satisfied me that he is ,qualified," they would then; let him into th<3 country. 13803. Suppose a man comes to the Custom House *•&»»iCustojn, House officer says, "/What trade are you?" and he says, "None," you would let hipn.. cpine,;in-r^do y°u say .that?—I am only dealing with .the 'tailor.now,'-. v , 13804. On that point, if a man says, "I have no trade at all," you would not stop him, but you would let him come in?;—At present he is allowed to come in. 13805. if a man says, to the Customllouse officer, " I have no trade at all," what would you do with that majil-^-I should send him back to where he came from. . bj. "Tliep; all iiii'skilled labour you want to send —No..? Asl say, I should submit unskilied iabour to/ a! pecuniary test. £3807L% But ;;a$art from the pecuniary I test.?^-If: he coSMiiiot'satisfy, the/pecuniary. test I should send him backi i'M'- ^ ->•, r • I. ' - -13808ir That is the whole point, and we liave come to it mow, that' all unskilled labour, subject to a pecuniary test) cyouiwould send back?—-That is so% ' 13809. And all skilled labour you would examine?— Ye^;""v;!'; -*f- • ' /' : 13810. And .you would- apply that at all the ports of this realm ?-y-As a, i^^er of fact, it could.be applied at all the ports tot which these people come. 13811^ Wliat is to prevent them from taking another port and coming round 1—In that case,: I submit it would be a very easy matter. With regard to the steam- shop, lines coming from Russia to England, I am not aware 4f they go into Southampton for instance; but; if a test, is established here, is: it suggested that they would; shift their wharves and the whole of their accom- modation to' Liverpool ? But even assuming that they didv sjiift to Liverpool, then I should say, shift the inspectors., 138121 Then,' what would prevent immigrants coming by way of Ostend and Dover ?—One or two might try; but. if the Custom House officers had power to detain them at their own expense, the same as would be done in:.,^^^i|^ralxd/.'oth!€!r, places,; -.or send them back at the expensp of the steamship company, they would, soon stop it.. / 43813.) It:, is not only to stop them, but it is to stop everybody who/comes to Dover^ in order to enquire abouti;them.v How could you discriminate between one person. and another //until you enquired f Supposing there is a; ;boat; load of people come, and the Custom Hquse offiper has to act, a person is not labelled " I am an /immigrant" ?-^If a boat-load of people came, as a matter of fact any man with any ordinary idea of fitness couldjagt,, especiallyCustom House officer. He could stand there, and he could tell who were: first-class pas- senders coming ashore with their baggage; he could tell who; were second class, the servants ; and he could knowthafr this claissi of people were in the. steerage, and he would say ;at once, " Can .you giye me, a qertificate ?' •" and the man would say, " /Yes.' Or he would take the sairve course as is pursued, for instance, at Cape Colony. 13814.. ^hat is a very reasonable, answer, but it would have to/be ain experienced man, who would have to use- a of? discretionlr-^/Gan, hardly imagine an alien (^ming .to Doverf -dfeguised. i?i a sealskin overcoat in- order . to .pass the Custom House officer, if "that is •suggested. 13815. I said he must use some discretion. It would be a very small one, but the people would have to be -liauire to be subject to the. Custom Hoiise officer's observation ?—That is. so, and . I would suggest, in answer to that, that they are subject to it at pres^iit. "■•••■ ' -•.....,, _ . _ . .. , 13816. No, they pass. free ?—They pass free ; but I crospd «oini :one occ^siⅈJ and when I got. to the other eni/!Uhsad; to pass through the Custom House, 13817. But I am speaking of this end ?—When. I came back this end we stood on view, as it were. 13818. Your goods were passed, but you were not passed?—We came through a doorway. 13819. But practically, do you think it possible that when persons come here and say they have a trade in Bucharest, that you could pass them through a standard of education to see if they could make a boot, or shoe or hot before you let them land ?—Supposing a trades- man in a trade, for instance, came here, and he repre- sented that he was in the legal, profession. It would be a very easy^matter H^ test hik knowledge as to that.' If he came here (and represented he was $ bdot and shde operator T submit/itt^y.d be! juW as e^sy tb^t^st'his j knowledge as to that, and if it was suggested that lie beMiged to thfe clothing trade, and he did'not know the ' top3 side of a pair of trousers from the bottom, or he did not know the band from the pocket, oir the stays from the buttons, you would know what to do. 13880. You would apply to the unskilled labourer a money test ?—Yes. • 13821. That is that he shall produce so much?—Yes. 13822. Do you think that really it would be efficaci- ous ?—I. am fullyjavyare, and I am possibly in accord with the, suggestion that it might be " dodged." 13823. I was not going to use that word, though we are 'exactly of -the same opinion ?—But I -would submit this, that as an ordinary rule, if regulations and laws •are established, and they"are evaded by sharp practice, some other .policy is ait once devised in order to counter- act it, and so the conflict goes5 on. At all events, some- thing would be done. 13824. In the first instance, supposing any charitable organisation who wanted to get rid of the oppressed people, say, in Roumania or other places, were to pro- duce ltjO dollars or 50 dollars, as is done in America, and this money is handed on to the next person who should come tin, that might come up to your word "dodging"?—Even granting that, we should benefit, because as it stands at present they land here with nothing,- and w& should benefit in this country to the extent of the 100 dollars they brought with them. 13825. But we do not confiscate it ?—No, but as it stands at present, and this is the point I want to bring outr they land with nothing, and .they are obliged at once to find work in order to live. If they had tW capital which they landed with, at all events there- would be something to spend. You are not going to put the capital very;; . high. You may put it at £5, or something of that kind. What is to prevent that person who lands with £5- becoming a greener ? £5 does not prevent him being a greener, and you would haver the same competition with that man's work, supposing he landed with £5 or with- out it,?—On the other hand I should say that we should benefit to this extent, that they would have to think whether he was a respectable man or not before they lent him the £5 to come here with. 13827. But assuming the man saved it?—Then, if he saved it he is a saving workman, and if he is a saving ; workman and unskilled, let him come in. 13828. But how does that stop the competition with your trade, if he is a greener and lives here ?—It would ensure; at' least this, that if the man had honestly possessed £5 of his own- he would not be absolutely de- pendent upon the first joib or employment that was: offered ' to him directly he liahded. These men ar^ picked up at the port of 'debarkation; they. are taken away,-;and; one sees u stop one hole the rabbit goes into the other; and if you stop one port they would go into another. 13838. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The mere stopping of the hole at this end would be a very .serious matter for the shipping companies, and the whole organisation at these points of embarkation in foreign countries, would it not ?—That is so. 13839. It would be a very serious thing for thean to change the destination of the people who are coming here f—Yes. 13840. (Mr. Lyttelton.) And if they did change you would change ?—Yes. I would further point out in reply to that that this trade of bringing these people over is not of such, a remunerative nature to the shipping industry that it would pay them to change the ports and their wharves. These people pay hardly any- thing to come over, and they have deck passages, and they herd together like cattle on the passage. 13841. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Has it evei* occurred to you in -talking over the matter as to the test of effi- ciency that the measures of proving the man was an ^efficient man might be taken at the place of his origin, say in Bucharest, that we have talked about ?—That is a> subject which, as I have (never been in Bucharest, I have not studied. 13842. I only mention Bucharest because it has been :mentioned here?—With regard to that, I should say that it is a thing that could be done, but the majority -of these men are men who get out of the country ^because they are subject to criminal proceedings when they leave. They have a low moral taint when they •start, and they bring it into this country with them, and it sticks to them through their whole business life. 13843. That would be overcome rather by what I suggest, that there should be an examination of the fit- ness of these people, morally or physically, at the place of their origin ?—That is so. 13844-5. (Chairman.) This is most crucial and inter- eating. You say there should be a test of moral character; that a man should have to go to some authority abroad, and obtain a certificate that he was a person of good character, unconvicted, and so forth ?— Yea. -You may admit it or not, but that is nothing more than the old passport system which this country tried to get rid of. It is part of a man's- credentials to show that he is of good character, and we are old enough to remember here when we could not move with- out a passport. It was England who got rid of that system. It is really re-eniacting the passport system. 13846. (Major Evans-Gordon.') The passport system already exist®. Everybody leaving Russia orRoumania or Poland (a very large proportion of our immigrants being drawn from those countries has to have .a pass- port, and to get permission to leave that country?— Yes. 13847. So there would be no hardship on them to present the passport at the point of embarkation if he is objected to at the point of debarkation?—No. 13848. (Chairman.) But take countries like Austria or Hungary. If we insist on getting this passport what is to prevent them from insisting that they should ask from us a passport ?—Nothing. 13849. Then it is re-enacting the old passport system ? —It may be. 13850. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Is that so exactly, because I thought in Russia and Poland they have to have pass- ports. (Chairman.) Yes. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Do not they also insist on our pro- ducing passports when we go to Russia ?' 13851. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, everybody. Putting the question of passports aside for the moment, my point is this : test of efficiency and qualification, moral and otherwise, for certain employments could be obtained at the place of the man's origin. Take Bucharest, for instance. Supposing he had to pass through an emigration committee there before leaving, his qualification could be ascertained in the place of his origin. Has that ever occurred to you?1—I tell you what has occurred to me with reference to Bucharest. Have we a British Consul at Bucharest ? 13852. Certainly, a Consul-General and a British Consul ?—If we have a Consul and a Consul-General I take it that there would be a difference of rank between the Consul and the Vice-Consul, the same as there is in the Army or Navy between a captain and a, lieutenant. What would there be to stop a man going to the British Consul and saying, for instance, "I am Russian, and I am desirous of going to England," and the British Consul in that country would say " All right, what is your qualification?" He says "I want to improve my position." "All right, are you a tradesman, or what are you ? " and let that British Consul then, as it were, give him a certificate that he was a respectable man, and so on, and let him conne. I would suggest some such simple test as that. 13853. (Chairman.) Would that be a certificate of moral character or a certificate of trade ability?—I should say^ myself with an unskilled labourer let us have a certificate of moral character, and with the man who claims to be a tradesman let him perform a test of trade ability. 13854. Take the man who goes to the Consul at Bucharest, and says, •• I have no trade at all, I am simply an unskilled labourer " ; you would let him come to tliis country. Now, putting your money test on one side, you would let him in if he fulfilled the money test. Why should he take the trouble to get a certi- ficate of trade ability ?—In the interests' of the nation. 13855. But why should he take the trouble?—I do not see why he should take it, but I see a reason why our British Consul should make sure that the intending immigrant into this country was of such a character that he might tend to the benefit of the country into which he is coming. 13856. The emigrant goes to the Consul and says, " 1 am an unskilled labourer." Then the British Consul cannot test that ?—No, but the British Consul can say " What village do you come fromj1" I am throwing out this suggestion in ignorance of the country with which I am dealing, and that is my difficulty, but I am only suggesting in the ordinary way that the British Consul should say to him, 11 What village do you come from 1 in whose employment were you?" and if he can do that he could get into communication with the man's former employer, and then he would give him a certificate of moral fitness to come, and I say let him come. 13857. But I am speaking of trade ability?—If it comes to trade ability I would suggest that if he goes and says 1 I am a tailor," then the Consul says " For whom do you work ? " " I work for So-and-so." If the man is an honest man, and a tradesman, he can prove his credentials in any country in the world. 13858. He might save all trouble, according to your theory, if he said to the Consul " I am of no trade at all " ? ■—-If he landed there as of no trade, then in that case there would be the Consul's certificate as to his fitness forMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 481 an emigrant, and then let him do the best he could. I should be very sorry to see this country in any way under a closed isystem of protection. I would only give a reasonable foreigner the same chance here as a reason- able Englishman gets in a foreign country. 13859. You would not shut them out yourself ?—No. 13860. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You would filter them?—Yes. 13861. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Supposing the person who applied to the Consul had the reputation of being a political offender in that country what would the Consul have to do?—There are certain kinds of laws I beiieivie (I am no authority on foreign laws) which are in operation at present, and if the man was a political offender he might be* dealt with. 13862. But supposing he had the. reputation of being apolitical offender?—I should say let him come in; I would not debar him on account of his politics, because this is a free country, and I would let him come here. 13863. Would not that put the Consul in a real diffi- culty ?—I see your point with regard to that. 13684. What should you say to that ? It is a real difficulty, is it not ?—I would only suggest this : that all things being equal, if a man leaves one country for another he has a right, as it were, to be clear with his own country before he goes to the country of his adoption. 13865. {Major Evans-Gordon.) He should be off with the old love before he is on with the new?—That is so. 13866. {Sir Kenel/m JDlgby.) You would put the Consul in the position of allowing that political offender to leave that country and come here ?—These things are not for me to settle. 13867. I was trying to test your suggestion. You admit there is a difficulty there?—Yes, but still not a difficulty that could not be met. 13868. {Chairman.) Could you solve this difficulty? Supposing thje Roumanian Governmemt gave to a Jewish citizen a right to depart—what we call a pass- port to emigrate. According to you he would have Mr. T. W. to take that passport to the British Consul, and go Whatley, through the old form of viseing it, and it would have to - be endorsed by the British Consul. What is to prevent 2 Mar. the Roumanian Government saying: " We want to get rid of this Jewish emigrant, and we are not going to allow the British Consul to stop this man from emi- grating ; we will not permit the British Consul to tell our State that our passport shall not prevail" ?•—I am not am authority on international law. 13869. I± it is under the control of the Roumanian Government a© to whether he should go or not how can we impose a condition on that Government that the Jewish citizen shall not emigrate unless certain con- ditions are fulfilled ?—I see where we are now. On this particular point with regard to the Roumanian Government, if the man was guilty of theft,$ or felony,. or any offence against the criminal law of his country, under the present system he could get away from. Roumania, unless there was anl extradition treaty, and could come here at once, and be one of the so-called aliens competing against the Jewish worker, but he would never think of going to the British Consul and asking for a certificate when at the same time the authorities of his own country were after him for the felony, and therefore we should be keeping out am un- desirable man from this country. 13870. How can we insist that the Roumanian Jew shall not go on board a steamboat, and come over io> this country without having such a certificate? The Roumanian Government would say : " We have nothing to do with the British Consul's certificate. We want to get rid of this man." ?—At our ports we say: " Where did you come on board ?" " From Roumania." "Have you got a certificate from the Consul ?" " No." 13871. He would say " I could not get it, because the Roumanian Government would not let me go for it" ?— Let hi™ settle that business with his own Government. We cannot settle business for people all over the world in that way. Adjourned for a short time. Mr. Edgar Harper, re-called; and further Examined. 13872. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You have prepared a further memorandum in addition to the evidence you were good enough to give us before?—Yes. 13873. Can you state generally the object with which you have prepared these figures. Was it for the pur- pose of comparison?'—The object that I personally had in view was to see whether the same kind of comparison which I made in Stepney and. Bethnal Green would throw any light on this question im the more central parts. I did not know when I started what results would be shown. I had not the faintest idea. The tables were handed in, and are as follow:— Mr. E, Harper.. TABLE 1a.—Total Population. Metropolitan Boroughs and Registration Districts. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. 1901. . Westminster: * Westminster...... 52,752 51,181 46,549 37,312 33,081 Strand....... 48,161 41,246 33,487 27,421 21,674 St. George's.....- 156,319 156,287 149,748 134,138 128,256 257,232 248,714 229,784 198,871 183,011 Holborn and Finsbury (excluding Glass- house-yard) : St. Giles...... 54,076 53,556 45,277 39,782 31,436 Holborn -...... 167,616 163,491 151,835 141,920 128,691 221,692 217,047 197,112 181,702; 160,127 St. Pancras: St. Pancras...... 198,788 221,465 236,363 234,379 235,317 TABLE 1a.—Total Population. 6144. 3 PROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION*. ; Mr. E. .Harper. 2, Mar. 1903. TABLE 1b.—Number of Persons Born in Foreign Countries, excluding Naturalised and British Subjects. Metropolitan Boroughs and Registration Districts. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. 1901. Westminster: Westminster - Strand - - - .... j 3,541 | 3,586 1,147 3216 1,048 4,295 1,250 6,372 (a) . 1,650 {a) ; St. George's - - 2,041 3,142 2,340 2,833 3,809 (a) 5,582 7,875 6,634 8,378 11,831 Holborn and Fins bury (excluding Glass- house-yard) : • St. Giles - - - - 941 1,449 1,193 2,028 3,940 {a) Holborn- -s ' - - - - 2,389 ,.2,870 ' ; 3,378 3,638 4,233 (a) 3,330 4,319 4,571 5,666 8,173 St.-Pancras: ; St. Pancras - - - 2,239 3,685 3,889 5,691 8,156 , TABLE 1b.—Number of Persons Born in Foreign Countries, excluding Naturalised and British Subjects. (a) These figures have been obtained by apportioning the actual increase for the whole borough in 1891-1901 on the basis of the actual increases in each registration district in the period 1881-1891. ' ' ? TABLE 1 a—Number of British Subjects Metropolitan Borough and Registration Districts. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1091. 1901. Westminster : Westminster - - - - Strand -...... St. George's...... Holborn and Finsbury (excluding Glass- house-yard) : St. Giles Holborn - - - - - St. Pancras : St. Pancras...... i } 97>372 { 154,278 | 153,145 43,303 32,439 147,408 33,017 26,171 131,305 26,709 20,024 124,447 251,650 240,839 223,150 190,493 171,180 53,135 165,227 52,107 160,621 44,084 148,457 37,754 138,282 27,496 124,458 218,362 212,728 192,541 176,036 151,954 196,549 217,780 232,474 228,688 227,161 483: M r , E< TABLE Id—Percentage of British and Foreign-born Population to Total Population. Metropolitan Boroughs and Registration Districts. 1861. 1871. 1881. 1891. 1901 Westminster; Westminster: !■ ' ' 4''• ' ' ' ' British -..... ('*) 93-00 93-03 88-50 80-74 , Foreign-born - - {a) 7-00 6-97 11-50 19-26 Strand : i. /British; - - . - (a) ! 97*22 96-87 95-44 92-39 ! Fcteeign-born - {a) | 2-78 3-13 4-56 7-61 St. George's : i t British - - 98-70 j 97-99 98-44 ! 97*89 97-03 Foreign-born..... 1-30 ; 2-01< •: ■ 1-56 2 •11 2-97 1 f British - 97*83 j 96-84 97-11 9579 93-54 Total - J i [ Foreign-born - 217 ! 3-16 i 2-89 4*21 6-46 HJolborn t and Finsbury (excluding Glass- . houses-yard): < St/ Giles : f - , British...... 98-26 97*30 97-37 94-90 87-47 Foreigni-born - ' - 1-74 2-70 2-63 1 5-10 12-53 Holborn : British; - 98-57 98-24 97*77 : 97-44 96-71' , Foreign-born - 1/43 - 1*76 2*23i Jhv 2-56 3-29 ("British - 98-50 98-01 97-68 96-88 94 90 i Total - 4 (Foreign-born - 1-50 1-99 2-32 3-12 5-10 St. Pancras : . St. Pancras : British - 98-87 98-34 98-35 97-57 96-54 Foreign-born - - 1-13 1-66 1-65 2-43 3-46 TABLE Id—Percentage of British and Foreign-born Population to Total Population. (a) The foreign-born population for the Westminster and Strand Registration Districts as now constituted cannot be obtained from the 1861 Census. (a) The foreign-born population for the Westminster and Strand Registration Districts as now constituted cannot be obtained from the 1861 Census. TABLE 1e.—Net Movement of the Whole Population. 1 Boroughs and Registration Districts. Excess of Births over Deaths 1891-1901. Actual Increase (+) or Decrease (-). Net Outward Movement of Population. Increase in Number of Aliens 1891-1901. ?....... - , Westminster: Westminster - ! Strand - - - - - j - 112 - 9,978 9,866 2,477 St. George - .... 3,836 - 5,882 9,71* 976 3,724 - 15,860 19,584 3,453 Holborn and Finsbury; St. Giles...... 2,618 ... - 8,346 10,964 1,912 Holborn....... 13,916 - 13,229 27,145 595 16,534 - 21,575 38,109 2,507 St. Pancras: St. Pancras - - - - 21,725 + 938 20,787 2,455 TABLE 1e.—Net Movement of the Whole Population. 6144 3 p 2 6144 3 p 2484 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : m. E: ffarper. 2 Mar. 1903. TABLE 3A.—OVERCROWDING. Table showing the Number of Persons overcrowded in Tenements of 1 to 4 Eooms in each Registration District in each Eegistration Sub-district for 1901 ; and the {Note.—Persons living more than two in a Population Overcrowded. Percentage of Population Overcrowded to Total Population. Metropolitan Borough. Registration District. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. City of Westminster - Westminster - Strand..... | 16,614 | 6,088 3,526 | 25*6 1 184 1 I 16-2 J — St* George, Hanover Square - 22,220 14,232 16-6 11-1 — 38,834 23,846 19*5 13-0 ' Holbon^nd Finsbury 9*-8 St. Giles..... 11,858 6,485 29-8 20-6 ocf iorni-Bo be Holborn - ! - 57,198 43,940 40*3 34'2 III 9&B9*I01ll ^ri9f [ A k) T9 ! T05,2 j 901,88 I -: V8tt°& £ (\ 8MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 485 Mr. E, Harper. 2 Mar. 1903. TABLE 3a.—Overcrowding. in the City of Westminster and the Boroughs of Holborn, Finsbury, and St. Pancras for the Years 1891 and 1901; percentage of overcrowding to Total Population. room are reckoned as overcrowded.) Increase (+) or Decrease (-). Registration Sub- District. Population Percentage of Population Overcrowded. Percentage, of Population Overcrowded to Total Population. Overcrowded, 1901. Population Overcrowded to Total Population. Civil Parishes. -7,010 - 8*1 - St. James' St. Anne St. Martin-in-the- Fields. 3,747 2,341 1,530 17*4 20-4 11-8 St. James', Westminster, St. Anne, Soho. St. Marfcin-in-the-Fields. - Strand - 1,986 22-8 Rolls, Savoy, St. Clement Danes, St. Mary - le - Strand, and St. Paul, Covent Garden. - 7,948 - 5*5 Mayfair and Knightsbridge. 802 2-8 St. George (part), St. Margaret and St. John (part). Belgrave 4,952 8-9 St. George (part). St. Margaret and St. John. 8,518 19-5 St. Margaret and St. John (part) and St. Peter. - 14,958 - 6-5 23,876 13*2 - 5,373 - 9*2 Bloomsbury and St. Giles, South. St. Giles', North - 4,301 2,184 19-1 24-4 j-St. Giles' and St. George. - 13,258 - 6-2 Holborn 9,102 30*7 Charterhouse, Furnival's Inn, Gray's Inn, Lincoln's Inn, Saffron Hill, St. Andrew, St. Sepulchre, and Staple Inn. St. James', Clerken- well. Amwell - Goswell Street 6,003 11,969 3,126 38*4 36-6 20-3 j-Clerkenwell. City Road Finsbury - - 10,098 3,642 39-8 . 36-5 jst. Luke. - 18.631 - 6*5 50,425 315 - 8,307 - 3*6 — — room are reckoned as overcrowded.)«SS£ ROYAL COMMISSION t)N ALIEN IMMIGRATION. ^ TABLE 3b.-^Gity of- Westminster. Overcrowding. Table showing the Total Number of. Enumeration Districts in each Registration Sub-district, and the Number having percentages of Overcrowding exceeding 50 per cent., exceeding 30 per cent, but not exceeding 50 per cent., and the Total Number exceeding. 30 per cent.; also the lowest and highest percentages in each Enumeration District. Registration District and. Sub-district, Percentage of Popula- tion overcrowded in Tenements of one to iour Rooms to Total Population. Enumeration Districts in each Registration Sub-district. Total Number. Number with percentage of Overcrowding. Lowest percentage of Over- crowding in any Enumera- tion District. Highest percentage of Over- crowding in any Enumera- tion District. Exceeding 50 per cent. Exceeding 30 per cent-. but nob exceeding . 50 per cent. Total exceeding 30 per cent. St. George, Hanover Square : | 1. Mayfair and Knightsbridge ; 2*8 12 — — Nil. 6*8 2. Belgrave .... 8-9 45 — 2 2 Nil. 42-6 3. St. Margaret and St. John - 19-5 .,-31 1 1 3 1 4 Nil. 52-1 Westminster: I. St. James - 17*4 12 • — 2 2 Nil. 36 *8 2. St. Anne 20-4 8 — 1 1 5-0 36*7 Strand: 1. St. Martin-in-the-Fields 11-9 10 — 1 1 Nil. 34 *2 2. Strand..... 22*8 10 — 4 4 Nil. 44-1 City of Westminster 13*0 : 128 1 13 14 Nil. 52-1MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 487 Mr. &. Harpei* 2 Mar. 1903£ TABLE 3c.—Metropolitan Boroughs of Holborn and Finsbury. •Overcrowding. Table showing the Total Number of Enumeration Districts in each Registration Sub-district, and the NtittiDefr haviilg percentages* of Overcrowding exceeding 50 per cent., exceeding 30 per cent, but not exceeding 50 per . , cent., and the Total Number exceeding 30 per cent.; also the lowest and highest percentages in each Enumeration District. , ' • ■ Percentage Enumeration Districts in each Registration Sub-district. Registration District and of Popula- tion overcrowded in Number with percentage of • Overcrowding. Lowest percentage of Over- crowding in any Enumera- tion'Distirict. Highest percentage of Over- crowding in any Enumera- tion District. r.-Wf) tnSuM.istficte^ Tenements of one to four Rooms to Total Population. Total Number. Exceeding 50 percent) Exceeding 30 per cent, but not Exceeding 50 per cent. Total exceeding 30 per cent. , Holborn: I. Holborn «... 30-7 22 3 7 10 Nil. 54*6 2. St. James, Clerkenwell 38*4 9 1 7 8 18-4 54*4 3. Am well - -r - : 36*3 21 4 10 14 2 6 58*3 4. G<»*well Street - - - 20-3 8 - ' • 1 1 3'6 40*0 5v City Road - 39-8 20 3 13 16 5*3 57*9 6. Finsbury 36-5 10 2 5"" ' 7 1*0 60-1 7 : St. Giles : 1338 1. Bloomsbury and St. Giles, South. 19*1 ,22 1 4 5 Nil. 56-0 2. St. Giles, North - 24*4 7 1 2 3 1-8 50*8 Metropolitan Boroughs of \ Holborn and Finsbury - j 31-4 119 15 49 64 Nil. 60 1488 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMTGKATION : Mr. E. Harper. a Mar. 1903. 13874. Your Table 1a deals with the total population in certain metropolitan boroughs ?—Yes, which I have divided as far as I could into registration districts. 13875. With what object did you select these par- ticular boroughs'? What had you in your mind?—I selected these boroughs because I found from the Census returns a larger proportion of aliens in those boroughs than in any others except those which I had already dealt with. 13876. What have you t^ say with regard to West- minster ?—I deal with the Westminster registration dis- trict in Table 1A, which gives) the total figures from 1861 down to 1901 in every Census. > 13877. Taking the district you have called West- minster in 1861, there was a population of 52,752?— Yes. 13878. There was very little difference In 1871?— Very little. 13879. And not much difference in 1881?—A differ- ence of 5,000. 13880. The next decade shows a very substantial difference ?—Yes. In 1891 there is a drop of 9,000. 13881. (Chairman.) You can take it from 1861 to 1901—the 40 years. Just give the figures. Take West- minster, Strand, and St. George's. They are very cogent. In 1861 the total population was 257,000$-— Yes. 13882. In 1901, 183,000 ?—Yes, Might I say the reason I have given Westminster registration district by itself is because to my mind it is the most important area. 13883. (Mr. Vallance.) Is that coterminous with the City of Westminster ?—The figure I have given is; but in the registration district of St. George's, Hanover Square, there is only a very ismall proportion of the alien population, so that if you give the total figures for the City of Westminster you do not get any con- siderable amount of light on the subject. 13884. (Chairman.) There is a falling off in these 40 years of 74,000, instead of am increase?'—Yes. 13885. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Generally speaking, taking both alien and native population together, how do you account for this general decrease ?'■—I should be inclined to account for that by raying that the residential popu- lation had been displaced to make way for premises utilised for commercial and office purposes. 13886. The employees live out in the suburbs, I sup- pose?—-No doubt. 13887. (Chairman.) What is the popular description of St. George's?—St. George's, Hanover Square. 13888. Does that centre round Hanover Square and that district?—It is an irregular shaped district, in- cluding Hyde Park. 13889. To your knowledge has there been a demoli- tion of residences ?—If you take Whitehall, there is the block of offices which was erected on the site from which a very large number were no doubt displaced. In later years the corner of Great George Street and Whitehall has also been cleared, and the same sort. Of thing which has been Bone by the Government for the erection of their offices has been done by private enter- prise very largely. 13890. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Then with regard to Holborn and Finsbury ?—Those two I have had to take together, because I have not any figures for them separately, except in 1901. 13891. They present much the same features—• 221,692 in 1861 and 160,127 in 1901, showing a decrease of about 61,000 there?—Yes. 13892. Have the same causes operated there in your opinion?—Yes, the same general causes have operated there. 13893. Then in St. Pancras the process seems re- versed ; you get an increase —The population Has in- creased by nearly 37,000 in the same period of 40 years; but if you look into those figures you see that the popu^ lation touched its .highest point in the mid-way period, 1881, and has since remained practically stationary. 13894. (Lord Rothschild.) I suppose the new railways have increased the population ?—The new railways, 1 should think, referring to> the Mvilani. in particular, which is comparatively speaking a new* railway, have done more to reduce the population than anythkig else. Very large clearances in Somers Town are no doubt re- sponsible for a good deal of this stationary population in St. Pancras. 13895. There is an increased population in St. Pancras?—No, I should say it has prevented the in- crease. 13896. (Chairman.) There has been an increase?— There has been an increase, but concurrently there has been a decrease, and the result is practically stagna- tion. 13897. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I suppose there has been a considerable addition in the suburbs of St. Pancras ? —No doubt. St. Pancras is a very increasing district, touching the centre in one point and the county boundary at the other; and while the one process of increase is going on in the north, another process of decrease is going on in the south', and during the last 20 years these two processes have practically 'balanced each other. 13898. (Mr. Lyttelton.) The same cause which has de- creased the residential population of Westminster has, in fact, increased the residential population of St. Pancras ?—Exactly. 13899. (Chairman.) There has been an increase of 37,000?—In the first 20 years, and then it remained stationary. 13900. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Your next Table, IB, deals with the number of persons in these areas who were born in foreign countries?—Yes. There you will see they are all, with one or two exceptions, on an ascend- ing scale. Taking Westminster as a whole you begin with 5,582 in 1861, and you find 11,831 in 1901. 13901. Then with regard to Holborn and Finsbury ?— In Holborn and Finsbury you begin in 1861 with 3,330, and you mount up to 8,173 in 1901. 13902. It bias gone from 3,300 to 8,173 ?—Yes. 13903. Then in St. Panicras it has gone from 2,239 in 1861 to 8,156 in 1901 ?—*Yes. 13904. How do you ascertain the foreign origin?—I have simply taken the Registrar-General's figures. 13905. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is not including children born of foreign parents?—No. 13906. (Chairman.) Do the returns show the occupa- tion of the foreigners at all ?—Yes. The Census returns show the occupation, but not in respect of boroughs j that is toi say they take the whole of the aliens entered in London, and they classify them, but they do not classify the aliens in each borough according to em- ployment. 13907. What district is Soho in?—The registration district of Westminster and the Borough of West- minster. 13908. I suppose it would be the fact that these men in these districts would not be the bootmakers and the tailors we have been dealing with. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The bespoke tailors working for the West End firms. 13909. (Chairman.) And a good many are waiters, are they not?—Yes, and restaurateurs in a small way. 13910. With that exception they are of rather a dif- ferent class?—Yes. 13911. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Jewellers and watch- makers?—They would be in Holiborn. 13912. Not Soho ?—Not so much. 13913. It is very difficult to get the occupations?— (Chairman.) We have not had any particular com- plaints of the existence of these men on account of trade reasons. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, we have not; not there. 13914. (Mr. Lyttelton.) There is a decrease in West- minster?*—A temporary decrease between 1871 and 1881 but it was more than made ud in the succeeding decade'. The same was the case in* St. Giles's- 13915. Then Table 1C gives the number of British subjects ?—That is simply the subtraction of B from A xou need not go into that in detail. 13916. Then Table ID gives us the percentage of -British, born population to foreign, population Yes. I think that is important, as showing the comparison between the growth of the foreign b©rn ami the decrease of the native born.F ' I MINUTES OF 13917. (Chairman.) That) is reducing the number you have given in A and B to a percentage?—And com- paring them. : (Mr. Lyttelton.) They go , up in Westminster in 1871 from 7 per cent, to 19 per cent. 13918. (Chairman.) As I understand in 1861, the proportion in Westminster, Strand and St. George's was 97*83 native born and 2*17 alien born?—Yes. 13919. The alien proportion has increased, »and in- stead of being 2*17 per cent, it has increased to 6*46, or three times as many as it was ?—As to proportion, yes, my Lord. The figures for the Westminster district are very much more striking in 1901. The British popula- tion is 80*74 per cent., whereas the foreign born has gtowrn to 19*26 per cent. (Chairman.) It is much greater in Westminster than in the other places. 13920. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is a general in- crease ?—Yes. 13921. But the incidence in Westminster is much stronger?—Yes. 13922. (Chairman.) And much less in St. George's, but there is this broad fact, that in those broad central districts there are three times as many now as there were in 1861 ?—Yes. 13923. (Mr. Lyttelton.) As to Holborn and Finsbury, there were 98;50 in 1861 British, and 1*50 foreign born. Then in 1901 there were 94*90 British and 5*10 foreign born?—Yes. That is more than three to> one. 13924. In St. Pancras there were 98*87 in 1861 of British and 1*13 of foreign born. In 1901 there were 96*54 British and 3*46 foreign born ?—Yes ; that is again a little more than three to- one. ) 13&?5. (Major Evans-Gordon.) On the whole there is a decrease of English ?—There is a decrease in the pro- portion of native born, and a considerable increase in the proportion of alien born. 13926. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What is this table dealing with the met movement of the whole population ?—-That is intended to ishow the probable exodus from these dis- tricts during the period 1891 to 1901, and I arrive at that by taking the excess of births over deaths, which, if everybody had remained where they lived in 1891, would have represented the increase of population. But then there is an actual decrease in every case, and com- bining the two figures) shows me the exodus which has taken place during the last 10 years. That amounts to no less than 19,584 in the City of Westminster, and 38,109 in Holborn and Finsbury, and 20,787 in St. Pan,eras. 13927. (Chairman.) I do not follow this, "Net out- ward movement of the population " ; how do you get the net outward movement—by what means ?—The ex- cess of births over deaths shows me the net increase of population if no one had removed. 13928. This is both English and alien?—Yes. As a matter of fact, the Census figures show a very large decrease, but that decrease is not the whole of the outward movement, because there should be in the ordinary course of things a natural increase of popula- tion! arising from the excess of births over deaths. I add that natural increase to the actual decrease. 13929. Where do you get the actual decrease?—In the second column. In that particular district it so happens that the deaths exceeded the births, and there- fore the natural increase is a minus quantity. It makes it a little difficult to follow; but in the next dis- trict, St. George's, the natural increase was 3,836; but we found that the .population enumerated was 5,882 less than in 1891; consequently the total exodus must have been 9,718.. In that particular district I have an in- crease concurrent with that exodus of 976 in the alien population. 13930. It carries us a very little further than your first Table, which showed us that there was a decrease of general population; Table A did that?—Yes. 1&931. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Is there anything in Table 2A?—No-, I do not think it isi worth the Commissioners while to spend time over Tables 2A and 2B, because, although a certain number of increased rents are shown there, the number of cases, as compared with the whole of the large area I am dealing with, is so small that it is not to be relied upon to give them a guide. I had EVIDENCE. 489 the figures, and at the request of your secretary I Mr. E. have tabulated them. . Harper. 13932. (Chairman.) As to the population, may we ^ Mai- 1^03 take it that in the other districts, that is to say, the South of Lond on, and, going to the west, Fulham and 1 iV' Hammersmith, there has not been any such increase as you find in the districts you have given us?—No such increase of alien population. 13933. You do not know whether there has been a growth of the general population by the pressure which is now going on to drive people away from the centres ? —No doubt. I find in the central districts of London, including the city of Westminster, Stepney, and these districts I am dealing with, and Southwark, the popu- lation is either stationary or decreasing. In the re- mainder of the County of London the population con- tinues to increase, but at a continually decreasing rate ; and beyond the county boundary in greater London the population is still increasing at a very rapid rate. 13934. We may take it that Stepney and the districts round have got, as we know now, the maximum amount of alien increase, these districts, you give us are the next, and in the other districts it is scarcely worth notice 1—It is scarcely worth notice. 13935. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Your Table 3A is for the pur- pose of comparing these districts in overcrowding with those you have already given us ?—Yes. I think I could save time by saying that in this case I do not find the same close connection between the alien population and overcrowding as I find in Stepney. 13936. May we have first the fact whether the over- crowding is as great or much less ?—The overcrowding is not as great as in Stepney. 13937. I think you have explained before what con- stitutes overcrowding, from the London County Council point of view ?—I think the Home Office is originally responsible for the regulation, reckoning two persons per room in tenemental dwellings; and anything: more than two persons I have reckoned as overcrowding in these tables. 13938. (Mr. Vallance.) Without regard to size?— Without regard to isdze. 13939. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is chiefly for re- housing purposes ?—Yes. If you would like to have the total you will find that in the city of Westminster there were 38,834 persons in 1891 living under over-crowded conditions, which is more than, two in a room ; in 1901 there were only 23,846 such persons. So that, while the alien population has increased both in amount and pro- portion, the overcrowding has decreased very con- siderably. 13940. (Lord BothschUd.) More than the alien popula- tion?—Yes, my Lord. 13941. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Then, in St. Giles's?'—In St. Giles's registration district there is a similar move- ment ; the overcrowded population in 1891 was 11,858 ; in 1901 it was only 6,485. The figures for Holborn of overcrowded population in 1891 were 57,198; and in 1901, 43,940. The last figure is for St. Pancras ; the figure for overcrowded population in 1891 was 64,730; and in 1901, 56,423. 13941*. That shows a satisfactory decrease so far as it goes ; to what do you attribute that as compared with Stepney ?-- 13942. (Chairman.) What do you attribute the de- crease to in these districts ?—I am not so competent to speak as to that as the Medical Officers of Health would be ; but I anticipate it is partly due to a better administration of the sanitary laws, and partly also to clearance of certain insanitary areas in connection with street improvements under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, which has removed the districts in which the overcrowding was greatest and worst. 13943. And sent them abroad you do not know where ? —I do not know where, but probably to conditions where overcrowding does not exist so much as it did there. 13944. Less central?—Less central. 13945. (Lord BothschUd.) Probably to Stepney?—I do not think so; not as a rule. 13946. (Mr. Lyttelton.) We have heard of the ad- ministration of the law in Stepney, and the difficulty the local authorities have felt. Have you had to do 6144.490 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. E. 2 Mar. 1003 with any clearance of-rookeries ?—Yes, we are now carry- ing out the big Holborn to Strand improvement in this very district. 13947. But such experience I am .speaking of as they have had at Stepney -No, not in the last decade. 13948. How, as regards the administration of the law, and as regards the street improvements and clearances of congested districts, Stepney has not had these features which Holborn and these other districts have had$—I should not like to compare the Stepney ad- ministration of the sanitary law with Westminster or Holborn, but otherwise I agree with you. 13949. (s I have, but they are not adequate, in my opinion, to give the Commission a fair conclusion. I should prefer rather to speak from my own, experience dealing with property in these districts, and that is that there has been nothing like the increase of rent that has taken place in Stepney during the last ten years. There is not the difference in the standard which now prevails in Stepney, and the standard which prevails here that one might expect. There is not very much difference between them. The point is, that the increase in Stepney has been so very marked in the last ten or twelve years. 13952. (Chairman.) Did Stepney start low -Stepney started low. These districts have been at a high level for some time, and the increase was probably much more gradual than in Stepney, but when Stepney began to go up these districts had already attained a consider- ably higher level. 13953. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You have been able when the County Council have carried out improvements to go into the valuations, and I suppose have had a large personal experience of the rental question?—Yes, I have bought hundreds of these properties, and have had to investigate the rentals paid for every room, in order to arrive at my valuations. 13954. When you are giving your general view as distinguished from special figures, you are able to say that your general view is based on very large ex- perience ?—I think I may say so, 13955. (Lord Bothschild.) With the decrease of. population in these districts, the rentals have not fallen ?—No, the tendency, if any, has been to increase.- 13956. Notwithstanding the decrease in the popula- tion Notwithstanding the decrease in the population. 13957. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Have you any further point to make?—I have no further point to make, except perhaps to mention that I have tables showing the nationalities represented in the different districts by the alien population. I have divided them between Italians, French, Germans, and so forth, if that is any use. 13958. (Chairman.) Yes, I think we should like to> have that upon the note. You have Finsbury, Holborn, St. Pan-eras, and Westminster. Does that complete all that you have got here, and does Westminster include St. George's ?—Westminster City includes St. George's. 13959. And Strand?—And Strand. 13960. In these four districts, Westminster, Fins- bury, Holborn, and St. Pancras, you have not carried out the totals ?—No, because the totals were given in my other tables. In the first three districts, West- minster, Holborn, and Finsbury, there is .a preponder- ance of Italians, but m St. Pancras they only com« third in the list. The Germans are the highest. 13961. When you get to Soho there is a large number of Italians ?—Yes. The table was handed in, and is as follows—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 491 Mr. E. Harper. 2 Mar. 1903. Country of Birth of Foreigners enumerated m the Metropolitan Boroughs of Finsbury, Holborn and *3t. Pancras, and the City of Westminster according to the 1901 Census ; and the Percentage of Foreigners of each Nationality to the Total Number of Foreigners. Finsbury, Holborn. St. Pancras. Westminster. No. Percentage to Total. vNo. Percentage to Total. No. Percentage to Total. No. Percentage to Total. Eur6pe : Austria - 103 4*18 179 314 443 5*42 392 3-31 Belgium - 31 1*26 113 1-98 263 3 *22 323 2-73 Denmark - 15 •61 41 •72 151 1-85 52 •44 France ..... 166 6*73 660 11-57 1,480 18-15 2,249 19-01 Germany 634 25-70 1,098 19-24 2,850 34-95 2,031 17*17 Greece ..... 1 04 19 •33 8 •10 21 •18 Holland 46 1*86 109 1-91 248 3 04 124 1*05 .Hungary - 24 •97 28 •49 ! 95 116 91 •77 Italy..... 1,065 4317 2,029 | 35 55 828 1015 2,282 19-29 Norway - 6 •24 14 *25 46 -56 28 •24 Poland (Russia) - 73 2*96 112 1-96 145 1-78 1,015 8-58 Portugal - 2 •08 8 14 1 *01 10 •08 Russia..... 90 3-65 240 421 370 454 903 7*63 Servia, Boumania and Bulgaria. 34 1*38 23 •40 40 •49 26 *22 Spain ------ 4 *16 50 •88 50 •61 102 •86 Sweden - 6 •24 44 *77 162 1-99 185 1:56 Switzerland - 79 3-20 247 4-33 573 7-03 958 8-10 Turkey..... 3 12 16 *28 39 •48 35 *30 2,382 96*55 5,030 88*15 7,792 95-54 10,827 91*52 Asia...... - — 28 •49 28 •34 36 *30 Africa....... 3 12 4 *07 6 07 25* •21 America: United States 74 3 00 611 10-71 295 3*62 864 7-30 Other Countries - 8 *33 25 ; •44 24 •29 54 •46 82 3*33 636 11-15 V'I9 3-91 918 7-76 Country hot stated - — 8 •14 .11 *14 25 •21 Totals - - - 2,467 100-00 5,706 100 00 8.156 10000 11,831 100-00 *6144.492 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mb. James O'Grady, < Mr. J. 13962. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you Secretary to & Grady, the National Amalgamated Furnishing Trades' Associa- 2 Mar"1903 tion *—1 am Organisillg Secretary. ____ 13963. ('Chairman.) What trades does that Associa- tion comprise?—It comprises the whole of the cabinet-" making, chair-making, carving, polishing, and so on. 13964. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is that a trades union ? •—It is. 13965. What is the number of men in it~?—The National Union has about 7,500 members. 13966. Embracing the whole country ?—Yes. 13967. Does that include Jewish and Gentile workers?—Yes, both. 13968. Can you give the proportion of the two clases?—We have a Jewish branch in the East End of London, with a membership of .about 150; we have a Jewish branch iin Manchester, with a membership of 200 ; they are the only existing Jewish branches we have. We had one in Hull, but that is wiped out. 13969. Are these separate Jewish branches affiliated to you, or are they parts of the Union ?—They are parts of the Union, only we separate them on account of the language. We have our rules printed in Yiddish. 13970. I want to know what you can tell the Com- mission upon the question of the effect of the alien immigration upon wages, hours of labour, general con- ditions and displacement of British workmen, inr cluding, of course, Jews and Gentiles ?—In London we have working rules in the form of an agreement with employers, which fixes a minimum rate of lOd. per hour and lO^d. per hour. There are two rates of wages. The large proportion of the alien men out- side the Union work from 10s. a week up to, say, 50s., and they have got no -set rate of wage at all more than a man is supposed to get what he earns. The " greener" would probably take about 10 s., and the better qualified alien after he had been here some time would possibly take about 30s. at the very outside. Then there may be a few of the thoroughly skilled aliens who are outside the Union probably, teaching these otlier aliens, taking about 50s. a week. As far a® the hours are concerned, our hours in London are 50 per week, .and I find that the alien workers, particularly the Hebrew section of the alien workers, make an average of 57 hours per week, that is seven hours beyond our -total. 13971. (Chairman.) How many hours a day is tha«t allowing for the Saturday holiday?—That is divided up into nine working hour® per day and five on the . Saturday, which would make 50. That is, as far as London is concerned. 13972. Would you describe how the 57 are made up>. I want to know how Saturday and Sunday come in with them?—With the Hebrew workers in some places they do six days' work in five. , 13973. I want to know how they work ?—They work usually from eight o'clock in the morning until eight o'clock at night, for four days of the week—'Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday; on Friday they work from about eight o'clock to four o'clock, at the present moment, that is, sunset, and then, possibly, they — work on our Sunday from nine in the morning until one o'clock, the dinner hour. 13974. You said from eight o'clock until eight, but there is some interval for dinner, and so on, I presume ? -—Yes, an hour for dinner, and, possibly, two quarters of an hour intervals, that is an hour and a half out of tho time. 13975. Ten hour© a. day for four and a half days ?— From 8 o'clock in the morning to 3.30 on the Friday, with an interval of an hour in that case, and then they would work probably on the Sunday from 9 o'clock to 1 o'clock. We cannot get at the time they leave off, but «I should say 2 o'clock, to be correct—from nine until two, with no interval. 13976.' That is 53J hours ?—Four days at 10J, that is 42. •13977. Then Friday 6J hours, and on the Sunday five ? —I should like you clearly to understand that is as fur as our men are concerned. lied; amd Examined. 13978. I am asking you about the Jewish men?—We have a Jewish branch. The Union Jews work these hours. 13979. You gave us 57 hours per week that somebody worked. Who was that ?—They are the shops that are outside the Union. I was talking of the Union. 13080. Do they work more than your 50 hours per week?—We allow a certain amount of latitude when dealing with the aliens. 13981. There is a third class, then. Your own men work 50 hours a week, and the aliens, elastioally, are allowed to work 53^, and the Jewish workers proper, non-unionist, work 57 ?—Many of them are working 60 hours, and although some of the men are in the Union, one cannot very well insist on those shops ob- serving the Union rules. 13982. You gave us 57 hours as applying to Jewish workers. Those are the ones you want to compare with your 50?—Yes. 13985. Can you give us the particulars of those 57 hours' working?—No, I cannot give the time of the day. I have a statement here, compiled by the Jews themselves, and in that statement they run to about 57 hours. There are a very few working 50. All of them are what we claim to be non-Unionist shops. 13084. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What, are the general conditions in your shops, as compared with the shops which are outside the Union, First of all, are thesq shops, in which the Union workers work, shops of good condition, well appointed as regards ventilation, and so on ?—'Not all of them, but I should say that the large majority of them are. 13985. Then, to contrast that with the conditions in these shops outside the Union, where the 11 greener f> is, what have you to say with regard to that ?—Will you allow me to differentiate between the larger shops and the smaller shops? 13986. Not in the Union ?—In the Union and out. 13987. Let us take the larger shops in the Union first? -—-In the larger shops in the Union the .general condi- tions are extremely good. In the smaller Union shops they have not the facilities for attending to the men that they have in the bigger Union shops, and they are not quite so good; but with regard to the non-Union shops generally, in respect to light, ventilation, and so on, and bench room, the conditions are good. That is onlv as far as those things are concerned, but the general condition of the workmen, with regard to chivy- ing the men, and supervision, and policing the men, ar© very bad indeed. In the smaller non-Union shops the conditions; are absolutely filthy;, in fact, I cannot find words strong enough to describe the conditions of the small non-Union shops. 13988. It is the smaller non-Union shop into which, the " greener " filters ?—Not always. 13989. Who works in those places ?—I can give you a typical case. Shall I give the names? 13990. (Chairman.) Yes, if you think proper?—I should not like to have the name in print. There is a shop known as Lebus's, in Tottenham. That is a strong non-Union shop, employing about 2,600 odd men. I would ask the Commission to note the terms which I have indicated, which the Union men demand, are 10^d. per hour . 13991. Is this shop you are speaking of aliens or natives?-—Aliens, I want to split them up in this way ; that quite half of them who are working there are Christian Poles, and the other half, or nearly the other half would be Hebrews. There are 280 cabinet-makers getting from 18s. to 35s. a week, and working 64A •hours. There are 170 improvers—they would be un- qualified—getting anything from 2d. an hour upwards but not over 4d. There are 400 what we call fitters, that * is, men putting on locks, hinges, and generally doing the job up before it goes down to the packing-room. They get from 4d. to 7d. an hour, and 50 improvers get from 2d. to 4d. an hour. Then there are 300 polishers, and I cannot get at what rate they take; but they have 300 improvers also—cme for each man—and they get fromMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 493 2d. to 4d. an hour. There are 120 women polishers, and the best-qualified women among those polishers get 18s. 13992. {Major Evans-Gordon.) What would the-lowest take?—I have not the figures for the lowest. There are 70 improver polishers, females, and the lowest gets 4s. per week and the highest 9s. There are 300 packers. I .cannot get their wages. Then there are 25 engineers, and about 200 dock labourers, mostly Polish Christians, whose wages are 15s. a week, and who unload the timber from the canal or the river. 13993. (Chairman.) What is the proportion of natives to aliens in this factory?—I should say quite 90 per cent, of the men employed in this factory would be aliens. 13994. (iMajor Evans-Gordon.) How do these Christian Poles come to be employed at the docks? Is there a private dock belonging to this firm ?—No ; the factory is built by the side of the river, and the timber comes up in the usual barges; but, instead of employing the usual dock labourers, they employ these men, and that would account for the riot some time back, when they smashed the windows in. 13995. Was there a riot at Tottenham some time ago ? —Yes. Another cause of the riot was that it was said— .although Lebus denied it—that he had a notice up in his place that " No English need apply." 13996. Anyhow, there was a riot there?—Yes. 13997. (Chairman.) An outside riot; not in the •factory ?—Outside. 13998. By whom ?—Mostly by the people around Tot- tenham. They got hold of this story about the notice being posted up. As a matter of fact, it was posted up, .and it was said it was posted up without Lebus's knowledge. 13999. Was it put up satirically by some of the men ?— Oh, no. 14000. Was it put up by somebody in authority?— Ye®, a foreman, or manager. There was also the fact that the men working in the unloading of timber were only getting 15s. a week, which was considerably below the dookers, rate. 14001. They were getting 2s. 6d. a day ?—That is what Lebus was paying his own men. 14002. What does the ordinary dock labourer get ?— ■6d. an hour. 14003. And they work eight hours?—Somewhere .about that. 14004. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They were discon- tented over these men. being employed instead of the regular dockers?—Yes. 14005. And then they made a riot?—Yes. 14006. (Mr. Lyttelton.) They objected to the Poles .getting 15s. a week:'?—'And to the fact that it went round the neighbourhood that this notice was up—that no English need apply. 14007. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have these people that you have just described displaced British work- men?—I should say yes. If these men had not been there the factory would have been run by British labour. 14008. By British you mean Jews and Englishmen? —Yes. 14009. What effect have these conditions that you describe on your people, is it lowering the state of your trade and wages?—It has taken the whole of a certain class of trade in London practically away from us altogether. Our men are mostly engaged at the present moment on the better class of furniture-making for such good, firms as Maple's and Shoolbred's, Waring's and Hampton's, so that they really have taken nearly the whole of that class of work—'medium and ordinary bedroom suites—out of our hands. 14010. What class of work is that—is it very cheap work?—Not the very cheap, but it is middle-class furniture, bedroom suites, that the ordinary better-paid artisan would use and the ordinary tradesman would buy. 14011. Is there a quantity of that class of furniture that is being produced by these people?—Yes, a large quantity that mostly goes into the front shops of many West End and provincial firms. , 14012.. You have told us about the general compari- son between the Union shops and the other shops. What about the general state of the small workshops. ]\fVm j These you say are very bad indeed?—Yes, they are O'Grady. very bad indeed. — 14013. What is the class of work produced in those 2 ^ar* shops?—Most of the class of work that goes into the ~ (hire purchase business, that is done in the small shops. 14014. What is the class of the alien that your Union object to?—The greener. 14015. That is the unskilled worker?—That is the unskilled worker. 14016. Why do you object to him?—Because the whole tendency is to pull down the conditions that we have established by the Union; and also the fact that the employers treat these men in an absolutely brutal manner; we cannot get hold of these men in any way at all. Tihe language prevents us, and the system of tyranny that the employer imposes on them, and many other things—religion, and so on, all play a part in the position. 14017. (Chairman.) Your principal objection is their working for low wages?—Yes, that is so, and longer hours. 14018. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is something in the statement that you have furnished to the Com- mission about the Leman Street Refuge. What have you to say about that ?—Some years ago in that parti- cular firm that I have mentioned it was known that they had a gang system in operation:—that is to say, that one qualified man would take on probably twelve greeners, and, by the way, the greener never learns the trade; he only learns a portion of the trade, and he is, there- fore, always at the mercy of the Hebrew employer. These men used to go to the Leman Street Refuge and get their men from there, and take them on to work, and get the men to work under them for what price they agreed to give them—the 'heads of the gang, I mean. 14019. That is done in other trades—tailoring, and so on?—I do not know. 14020. But you know about it in your particular trade?—That, is so. 14021. Therefore, I understand you put it in this way, that these men have little chance of raising their posi- tion and getting' improved wages, because these heads of gangs can. always go and enlist cheap labour at the refuge ?—And from the fact that they never learn the trade; they only learn a portion of the trade. 14022. That keeps them down?—Yes. 14023. Then you wished to say something about the business methods and power over the workers, but that you have referred to?—Yes; but in connection with that matter, of course, you can quite see that if the man is only taught a portion of the trade, and, owing to the fact of the language as well, he is absolutely under the control of the employer. We have dealt with it in that sense. 14024. The employer can dictate his own terms: ?— That is so. 14025. Then you say something about inducing these workmen to break Union rules ?—Take the present rules, for example, dealing with the Union men, that is, the alien who is a Union man. He would be working in a shop under these rules, and the employer will come along to him, and tell him, although he has plenty of work on his books, there is no work for the man to* do; and the man not. knowing the language, and seeing no possibility of securing employment, is very upset; and when the man asks him the reason for it, he says there is nothing to do, " But if you care to stop at a penny an hour less, you can do so." Or, supposing he does not offer the man less money, he offers him the chance of working piece-work, and on both these points he is breaking our rules. 14026. Then, what have you to say about two sets of books being kept; what is the object of doing that?— Whenever there is a dispute between the employer and the workman, and the workman brings the matter be- fore the Union, and I go to see these employers, I am prepared to say they have two* sets of books. In other words, the man makes a complaint, and when I go to see the employer, the employer produces a set of books which proves the man is working to our rules. But I know that he states falsely that the man is working to our rules, as the man says he is not, and the other men who are working side by side with him will cor- roborate him. 14027. But the books show he is ?—The book that the494 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALTEN IMMIGRATION Mr. J. employer shows to me proves the man is working within p'GTady. the rules. 2)Mar 1903 14028. That is done, in order to mislead investigation ? _____ '* —That is so. 14029. What a,bout Sunday labour ? Do they work in these shops on a Sunday P—Yes. 14000. There is no objection to that, because they are allowed to do it by the law?—Except this, that in some of our shops, for instance, I know a shop in Camden Town where there is a Hebrew employer, and he makes the time in the five days—Monday, Tuesday, Wednes- day, Thursday, and Friday. He makes the 50 hours in the five days and close® (Saturday, and on our Sunday as well. 14051. He closes, both days ?—Yes. 14052. And makes the time up in the five days by putting it in on the five days ?—Yes. 14033. They work excessive hours for five days, and do nothing on two?—Yes. 14034. With regard to> boy labour, what is the point about that ? Are these boys apprentices ?—No-; some of the boys, are apprenticed, but in the ordinary Hebrew •hop they call them hands. A man would have two hands to help him,, and, probably, between the three, they would earn a fair rate of wages, say, £3, but three of them- would earn it. We strongly object to that kind of business altogether, because it has a tendency to lower the rates more than anything else. A man can get two boys, whether they may be sons, or strangers to him, and they continue to work at the bench and help him to earn a fair wage, yet the boys get a poor wage while the man gets a decent wage, and the amount of work they turn out would be what two men would do under ordinary circumstances, earning £2 3s. 9d. each for a week of 50 hours. 14035. What is the point about hawking work on barrows?—Most of the work that is hawked about on barrow® is made in the garrets and cellars round the East End, and these men take it round to get a " Saturday night,' a.s they call it—something to keep them going the next week. They go about from factory to factory hawking their goods. 14036. The made article ?—Ye,s. You will find one man, who is a really good judge of prices, will offer a price below the market value for a- cause the Englishmen are learning our system. I thought that was a point to bring before the Commission. 14083. (Chairman.) When do you put that period?— Three years ago, since I commenced writing my series of articles, the whole of the trade took up that question and began to divide the labour. 14084. But when do you put that day of promise when the -aliens will be turned out of the trade ?—-About eix years. 14085. Then we shall get rid of the whole difficulty ? —I do mot say you will get rid of the whole difficulty; but the native tailors working on the sub-divisional labour system will be on an equal footing with the aliens. 14086. You said it would be in six years time?—In six years time I venture to suggest that the -aliens working on the sub-divisional labour system will be almost on a level in obtaining the work from the mer- chant tailors with the English tailors. 14087. How shall we get rid of them in that way?— Because I think an English manufacturer or merchant tailor would, if he can get native labourers to work on the same system, and being a patriotic Englishman, employ his own workmen in preference to an alien where he cannot do it now. 14088. (Lord Bothschild.) Will you kindly explain how the sub-division of labour works ?—I have got that on my list of points, and I will come to that. I want to give an explanation as to why the alien is better able to compete with a native in this respect as far as the bespoke trade is concerned. The hours, I must sav, are very long indeed where sub-division of labour is practised. Of course, it used to be longer before the appointment of the Sweating Commission; the hours were very much longer than they are now, but where the recommendations of the Sweating Committee have been adopted there have been improvements in large factories, though a great deal of this trade, prin- cipally done by the Jewish middleman, is now done in the factories on the same sweating conditions as the small middleman. It has been suggested that there is no sweating in large factories, and that sweating only takes place where there is home work, and so on. My contention is this, that there is as much sweating, if not more sweating, in the large factories than there is in small workshops. The difference is that the man who sweats more largely gets more profit, and the small man who cannot sweat to such a large extent has to be content with less profit. 14089. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It all comes back to the. one question : What do you call sweating ?—I will give my definition. There are various definitions of sweating, and everyone claims to have his own parti- cular definition. I claim to have my own particular definition, and my definition is, extracting a certain •amount of human labour from a person physically incapable of producing the amount of work required by the second person. 14090. I do' not understand that at all ?—I would explain it. Supposing I employ a tailor. I want him to make a certain amount of garments or work in a given time. That man is physically incapable of producing thei amount of work required by m© in a given time, and, consequently, I say to him, 11 Look here, if you cannot produce this quantity that I require for my wages, one1 of two things must happen; either you will have to produce that work in a given time or not, or, if you do not, you will have to work longer hours to produce it for the same wages, or, if you want to work less hours, you will have to reduce the wages." Therefore, it is extracting a certain amount of labour which a man is physically in- capable of producing within the given time required by the employer. That is how we get low wages and long hours. If you do not want to work long hours you must receive low wages, and if you do not want to receive low wage® you must work long hours. To the employer it makes no difference. In the big factories the sweating is done by the reduction of wages, and not in the hours. With the middleman, the sweating is done by the work- ing of long hours. 14091. You cannot work long hours in the factory ?— No; in the factories persons are sweated by the reduc- tion of wages; they do not work long hours, but they reduce wages. 14092. Then the middleman takes work home, audi work© long hours?—Yes; with regard to which we, a* aliens, have protested over and over again. They work long hours in order to get the wage. 14093. Your conclusion on that point is that there is much sweating going on in the big shops as in the small shops?—My proposition is, there is more sweating in proportion to the wages earned than what there is in the smaller ones. The small man has not the number of persons to sweat from; the larger manufacturer hasi a large number of persons1 to sweat from. Then, with regard to the hours of labour amongst the middlemen, I do not want to put all the blame on the alien working- man, but I am rather content to say that a great deal of this, blame for sweating I must put on the merchant tailor, th© manufacturer, and the middleman. I can- not put all the blame on the working-men themselves. 14094. They are the victims?.—-Yes. 14095. That is understood, and you need not elaborate that point ?—I do not think it is understood, because the manufacturer getsi off scot free because he is a big man and commonly known a® a gentleman, and nobody looks to him, but it is the small man they look to, and they put all the blame on th© workers; and my contention is, there is as much sweating in the wholesale houses as in the others. Th© hours of labour are very long, in the East End especially. They will work from six in the morning till ten or eleven at night. They were much- longer hours before the Sweating Committee was ap- pointed. but there has been more diligent supervision on the part of the factory inspector, and I think there haa been more legislation on the subject with regard to females, which has considerably reduced the hours of labour, but in the last five or six years there has not been1 that supervision on the part of the factory inspector. 14096. Do you say, now, the work in th© factories, which is under the control of the factory inspector, is- from 6 o'clock in the morning until 10 at night?—No, that is outside the factories. That is by the middlemen. 14097. That is a subject, over which the factory in- spector has no control at all P—Oh, yes, he has. 14098. In the workshop he has, but not at home?— I iam speaking now of the middlemen. In the Borough of 'Stepney, there are 794 middlemen, not home workers, but men who employ a number of men and women on their own premises. These are the places where a, fac- tory inspector has control, and my experience is that the inspector does not go in the morning to visit these* places; he goes at. night. Sometimes he will find that they work longer hours, but that only refers to females.- As far as the men are concerned, the factory inspector has no Control over the men, and, therefore, they work terribly long hours, which, I think, ought to be altered. If the Legislature or (Home Office would have adopted the recommendations of the Sweating Committee, there is no doubt we should have got rid of a lot of these evils. With regard to piece-working, a great deal of our trade is worked on the piece-work, especially in the bespoke trade. The prices vary* I do not think that out of the* 794 shops that I have got. on my list, we have got two shops which pay the same price on the1 piece-work sys- tem. One middleman will get the same price as th©) other from the merchant tailor, but the two middlemen' will not pay the same price to their hands when they get the work home. We have been fighting against that. It is not because the workers are anxious to work for a low wage, but because they are forced to accept it on account of the large number of what I will call unemployed Jews in the market now. You cannot get away from the fact that there is a large number of' unemployed Jews, and that reacts very greatly on the price of labour. 14099. The existence of this large number of unem- ployed Jews tends to drive down wages?—It certainly has that effect, unless the man is a skilful man, and the employer wants him. 14100. Now, with regard to day-work, what have you" to say ?—There is a; large class of persons who work for the middleman in day-work, and, according to our Trade Union lists, we have a statement of prices, which, I think, it is necessary to quote, showing that we are not willing to accept anything. 14101. In the Union, of course, you are not?—It is- very difficult. 14102. But the whole point which we are trying to get at is this; Does the alien influx compete with your people who are working for high wages ? We do notMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 497 want all the details about the intricacies of the trade P— Then I will go into the 'prices, but I might say, as an instance, that, we want for the tailors 8s. 9d. a day for a first-class tailor. He must be a practical man, although he works on the sub-division of labour system. 14103. He would be a man who knows a lot about tailoring ?—No; he would only be a sub-divisional man. A man who is a good baster would command 8s. 9d. a day working on the sub-divisional system. 14104. {Chairman.) For six full days?—8s. 9d. a day. It does not matter whether he works three or four days. 14105. Does he work during a week of six days ?—No, because even in the busy times we do not get six days' work a week. 14106. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is a fluctuating trade?—The bespoke trade is fluctuating, and, there- fore, they work by the day, and not by the week. If there is a large number of unemployed tailors, a man is compelled to accept 8s. instead of 8s. 9d., and what Mr. L. some of the employers will do is this: instead of em- Lyons. ploying one man for 8s. 9d., they will employ two inferior men, and pay them 4s. each, and so get double the 2 Mar. T$03. amount of labour from them. This is a question between alien and alien. In the third class trade it is not so much a question between the alien and the native, but between the alien and the alien. 14107. The alien competing with the alien?—The alien competing with the alien. 14108. Our inquiry is as to whether the alieai affects the people already here. You started by saying that the alien himself had become discontented at the fact of the number of new arrivals ?—Yes. 14109. What you have said now explains that?— That is so, according to resolutions which they have carried at public meetings of Jewish workers them- selves. THIRTY-THIRD DAY. Thursday, 5th March 1903. members present : The Eight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Qhairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. Lewis Lyons, recalled. 14110. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You understand the principal point we want to hear your views upon, is the effect of the alien immigration, which is the question we are dealing with, upon the industries in the East End. Let us confine ourselves to that point ?—I have written out ia statement which will not take me a quarter of an hour to read, and I think I have compressed it ais much as I possibly could. 14111. Will you just read it?—In obedience with the wishes of the Commissioners I have compressed my statement. The effect of alien immigration since the great Jewish tailors' strike of 1889 has been to reduce wages and: increase the number of working hours. The number of persons, all aliens, engaged in that strike was 10,000. It was a struggle between alien workers and alien employers, who kept up the fight for six weeks. Lord Rothschild and Sir Samuel Montague were instrumental in bringing the terrible sufferings to a close. It is worth noting that during that strike there was not a single charge of assault or intimidation. In consequence of the employers reverting to the old system, which existed before the (strike, mass meetings of aliens were held to protest against the new innova- tion. We are still protesting. The great influx of native feimale labour into the factories,- which were built and extended after the report of the Sweating Committee in 1889 and 1890, reduced the out-working system and largely increased the alien unemployed, whiofe affected wages and hours. That, and the constant new arrivals, with the latest improvements of machinery, have produced a very bad state of affairs in London as well as in the provinces, viz., that aliens are competing with each other for work, and is comparable with the system that existed amongst the dockers at the dock gates before their great strike. Statements have been made and freely circulated that owing to cheap alien labour the articles which they produce are of an inferior quality. That is not so. Cheap clothes does not neces- sarily mean nasty clothes. This was true at the time whan the Rev. Charles Kingslev wrote his " Alton Locike " ; -since then things have changed. The prin- ciple of subdivision of labour, as adopted by the aliens in the tailoring trade; has an upward tendency of pro- ficiency. This fact has been realised since the publica- tion of my articles in the " Tailor and1 Cutter " in 1894, 6144. 1901, and 1902, that apprentices are bard to obtain to Mr. L. work on the old native system. The low wages received Lyons. by the aliens—wages which they are compelled to - accept in consequence of the surplus alien labour in 5 Mar' the market—naturally tend to produce a lower standard of living and comfort as against the person receiving higher wages ; but, in the absence of any legalised standard of living, it would not be fair to say that the aliens adopt a lower standard of living than the nativp worker living in similar environments. What would be a low standard of living to one person would be a comfortable living to another. Whilst aliens compete with aliens for work, and do not fulfil the obligations required of them by the English- trades unionists to join their trade organisations, it is only fair to point out that there is no organised attempt to reduce wages, or to take the place of men on strike, as does exist in this country, known as a Free Labour Association. Jewish trade unions fluctuate in consequence of exces- sive immigration, and the Jewish labour leaders have from time to time the utmost difficulty in maintaining a solid and disciplined organisation, as one would expect after a number of years' hard toil, to improve the worker's position. As an English Jew, I have been engaged in this kind of work for over 18 years. Had it not been for the few earnest and enthusiastic trades unionists in keeping whatever men they could together, wages would be lower than they are. This leads me to contradict the statement made by Mr. Evans, the Factory Inspector, that tailors' machinists receive from £3 to £3 10s. a week. There may be one or two isolated cases where this money is received, but the hours worked for this sum would constitute nearly two weeks' work. I am recognised in the trade as a practical and quick machinist, having received the highest wage per piece, and having worked for 10^ hours per day for five day's during the week, the utmost I was able to earn was £2 10s., and that only for .a few weeks. At other times my wages were as low as 5s. 14112. (Chairman.) When you say your wages were as low as 5s., how long were you working for that 5s. ?— About three or four weeks;. 14113. But how many hours in the day?—-That was during the sliack season, but sometimes you have to b«. 3 R498 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. X. the workshop all day for that amount. Working Lyons. by piece one has to> wait till the other part of the work : *s finished by the other hands. ^ ^r* 14114. That means that work was very slack ?—Yes. The question was asbed of Mr. Evans whether he thought that was an isolated case, and lie said "No," that £3 to £3 10s. was general. 14115. That was when people were in work %—Yes. It is a custom in some workshops, and in all the work- shops, of the mantlei trade where one good machinist will employ several plain machinists of the poor alien class and pay them a smiall wage, and in this way the machinist would receive a larger sum in wages, but out of which lie would have to pay the plain machinists. I do not think that the Commissioners could recommend any legislation o*a this point. The knowledge of the true principles of trades unionism will abolish the system of one workman employing another for profit. This is a system entirely unknown amongst the English workmen, and I hope thiey never will introduce it when adopting the subdivision principle1. The responsibility of the sweating conditions should be fixed upon the right persons, viz., the manufacturer, merchant tailor, .and the middleman, and not upon the actual workers, who are the victims of circumstances. The statement that I made on Monday that the natives) are learning and adopting the Jewish system of subdivision, and ■utilising the -stewing machine as a scientific instrument of production, is borne out by the fact that during the whole of this week an exhibition took place at the offices the "Tailor and Cutter," where the Jewish system of -tailoring was explained in detail to a large body of "Englishmen. 14116. (Chadrman.) By Jewish there, do you mean native or alien.?—Both native and alien. Certainly all •she native Jews working in the tailoring1 trade adopt the same system as the alien. 14117. You include the alien and the native Jew?— Yes, in this subdivision. As to my remedies to> prevent ,an excessive supply of alien labour and the influx of immigrants, I would suggest that the Jewish trades unions be greatly encouraged instead of being opposed ; -that the officials of the union work in harmony with the employers for the regulation of all matters connected -with the tailoring industry, and to disseminate abroad the conditions of the English labour market from time to -time, which I am sure, would produce the desired effect for which the Commissioners have been appointed. The responsible Jewish labour leaders would know whether and when alien labour would be required. I have always inculcated into the minds of the Jewish workers that a trade union is established to prevent -strikes and not to create them. I am prepared to answer questions. 14118. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What was the reason -of that strike in 1889 which you refer to ?—I had better •quote the passage if you do not mind, because I want to be as accurate as possible. 14119. You need not go into detail. I only want to know what was the cause of the laibour disturbance ?— Xong hours, low wages, insanitary workshops, bad treat- ment by the employers, and working adl nights. I will just read a short passage which will not take a few minutes, just to .show what we demanded at that time, tnd als3 tell yon that we have obtained those conces- sion*. We demanded first that the hours he reduced to -twelve, with aa interval of one hour for dinner and half «n (hour for tea. We used to work 16, 17, and 18 hours a day, and on Thursday morning we used to go in at 6 o'clock, and never left till Friday night at 12, or some- times we went into Saturday. Then the second thing was that all meals be had off the premises. " (3) 'Government contractors to pay wages at trade union rates; (4) Government contractors and sweaters not to give work home ait night after working hours.'* That is after 8 o'clock at night. After being out for six "veeks the employers granted those concessions. 14120. Was this prior to the Sweating Commission ?— This was just between the sittings of.the Sweating Com- mission. 14121. You had a great deal to do with the Sweating "Commission ?—Yes ,1 gave evidence on several occa- sions. The people wanted the Committee to draw up its report to present to Parliament, and they were so impatient they could not wait. Therefore they struck -work. 14123. (Lord Rothschild.) Not-the Committee 2—No* not the Sweating Commission. 14124. It sat for three years %- 14122. (Chairman.) Who -Trorker* were so impatient. was impatient ? — The 14125. (Chairman.) There are a lot of people im- patient now 1-—Yes, but they .had a cause to be im- patient at that time, because they were working so many hours. 14126* (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you say these con- ditions which obtained in 1889 have been gradually reap- pearing or have reappeared to a large extents—Yes, they reappeared about six months after the concessions were granted. 14127. And that has been steadily going on since?— Yes.' 14128. There are a good many very undesirable and bad conditions in the tailoring trade?—Very bad indeed now. 14129. Do you attribute them to any extent to the amount of cheap labour that is available and to, im- migration?—Both to> the alien immigration and the introduction of new machinery, which is being utilised to a very large extent, especially in the factories. 14130. Do you mean the band and knife?—No, uhe sewing machines. 14131. Not the cutting ?—No ; the various kinds of machines for binding, which was previously done by hand, which is now done by machine, and cording which was previously done by hand, and employed a number of hands, especially females, is now done by machine. That is all now done by machinery, especially in the factories, but not by the middleman, because he cannot afford to have that machinery. 14132. How do those machines produce bad condi- tions' ? Do they produce a glut of labour ?—Certainly. It took a man an hour to cord the edge of a coat right round, and now the machine can do sixteen of those coats in less than an hour. 14133. Does not the increased production produce increased employment too ?—No. It increases employ- ment so far as the mechanics are concerned in making those machines, but it is counteracted by the number of workers thrown out of employment in the particular trade. 14134. (Chairman.) Is that an evil or an advantage? —It is an evil to one and an advantage to the other. It finds work for the English mechanic, but it dis- places the alien labour. 14135. It produces 16 times as much as the hand labour ?—Yes. 14136. Is that an evil or a benefit P—I am in favour of machinery if properly used. 14137. (Major Evans-Gordon.) When you say cheap good are not nasty goods, do you include tailoring and shoes P—No, I do not know much about shoes, except when I bought a cheap pair of shoes which did not last very long. 14138. Did you hear what Mr. Amstell had to say on that subject?—I heard what he said. 14139. Would you be in general agreement with what he said about that?—I do not know anything about the boot-making. 14140. You only refer to your trade ?—Yes. It is a very big trade. 14141. Do you consider the 'fact of these people com- ing .from countries where their habits and where their standard of living are very low, is a detriment to those people who are accustomed to a higher standard here ? —'No, I do not know what their standard of living is abroad, I am unable to say; but what I can say is, that those T have seen are very robust, and healthy and strong, and that the middleman prefers these men, in preference to the old men who have 'been here, because they are robust. 14142. What do you mean by saying that Jewish trades fluctuate in consequence of excessive immigra- tion?—When we have organised a large body of men, and they remain in our unions for several months, and we get certain concessions, then in about three months' time we find a large number of aliens, some of them being tailors, come in. Of course, the middlemen, take advantage of them, and prefer them to the trades unionists, and the trades unionist not being employed, goes out of the union in con-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 499 sequence, and it is difficult to get the new arrivals in. We make them understand in Yiddish, but they do not seem to understand the principles of trades unionism, although they do understand the language. When we tell them they ought to get 6s. instead of 3s. they understand, even although they have only been here for a day. 14143. Now a letter of yours appeared in the paper on the 1st February, I think ?—Which paper ? 14144. " Reynolds' Newspaper," I think it was ?—Yes. It was an open letter. 14145. You make certain statements in the letter, and I understand you to say the outcry about alien immigration is justified with regard to certain particu- lars ?—How far down is that ? 14146. I am only summarising it?—<1 should like to have the exact words, because if you refer me to the paragraph I may be able to explain the meaning. 14147. You say: "I cannot say that there are no grounds for their justification "—that is, for the outcry? —Yes. 14148. You admit there has been an outcry, and you say that you oannot say there are no grounds. To sum- marise your grounds you say that the complaints are justified in three ways, first from sweating employers ? —Yes, that is one. 14149. House farming and driving up rents to an enormous extent?—Yes, that is two. 14150. And then general bad type of men who come over here and keep illicit stills and get into the criminal courts and discredit the Jewish name ?—Yes. I might say the Jewish community are also opposed to those, and there was a letter approving of my state- ment, although they denounced me, because I am a poor man, I suppose. 14151. The evils of this class of persons are admitted widely in the Jewish community?—Yes. Whilst I was out of London the Jews themselves conducted a campaign against the Jewish landlords. I had nothing to do with that. The feeling against them is very bitter now, because rents are going up very consider- ably, and sometimes half a man's wages has to be paid for the rent. That applies both to the English and Jewish landlords. The English landlords have adopted the same system as the Jewish landlords. (Chairman.) Will you use the word " alien" when you mean alien, and not the word " Jewish " ? 14152. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That class of person you think steps should be taken against in order to pre- vent this, outcry?—'That is the wish of a very large number of the aliens themselves. 14153. To summarise that you say that latterly we Kave No, not sepa- rately. They come into our organisation. Nearly all the native Jews can speak Yiddish. 14165. Please d'o say alien when you mean alien, because you have been saying Jewish as opposed to native?—I will bear that in mind. I am a native Jew, and I am the secretary, but we have very few native Jews engaged in our trade. 14166. (Mojor Evans - Gordon.) They are mostly aliens ?—'Yes. 14167. (Chairman.) Members of your trades union are Christians—do you mean the majority ?—No. 14168. Have you got any Christian natives ?—No, but we do not debar them from coming in. We should' like them to come in and assimilate. 14169. Why have you taken charge of the alien "trades unions ?—Because they cannot get into the English organisation. They do not understand the language. We are bound to speak to them in Yiddish, or if they cannot understand that, Russian, and so make them understand. 14170. Why do mot they have a secretary of their Pwn ? Why do they come to you ?—I am able to speak Yiddish and English, and therefore they think I Repre- sent them both on lie English and the Jewish side. 14171. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The general tendency is the difficulty of keeping up these alien organisations 7 —Yes, there is a great difficulty. 14172. There are very many reasons for that, but I will not trouble'the Corn'mission with them?—There are many reasons. 14173. (Chairman.) I think it is important. I under- stand you to say that there are not many Christians in this trade which you represent in your trades union P 3 R ° Mr. L. Lyons. -'IJ9S3 5 Mar. 1903.500 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. L —No, not in tlie union. There are very few native Jews Lyons. English Jews represented in our organisation. , —— 14174. In the trade are there many native Jews ?— 5 Mar. 1903. Yes, but not very many, except the females. There ~l are a large number of native Jewish females. 14175. To what organisation do the native Jews belong ?—Those that are engaged in our trade, if they belong to a trades union at ail, belong to ours, but I know of no single case, except in the first class trade, where they belong to the English organisation. The English Jew, those who do not understand Yiddish, oi •course will not come in to us, because it is like speak- ing French to them—they sit there all the ^evening, and cannot understand a word we say. All our bills have to be printed in English and in Yiddish. 14176. Do the English Jews in the majority speak Yiddish or not?—No, I do not think they understand Yiddish plainly. They might understand one or two words, !but I do not think they would be capable of con- versing in the Yiddish language. 14177. What is, according to your view, the origin of the Yiddish language? Where does it come from? —The etymology of that I could not explain. I think it is a mixture of low German and Hebrew. There is nothing English about it. 14178. (.Lord Rothschild.) There is very little Hebrew ? —Yes, mostly low German, and other people have added something to it. I very often add a word or two of my own. 14179. (Chairman.) Is there any known history of ihe'Yiddish language? (Lord Rothschild.) It is a mixture of all the languages "which are talked. 14180. (Chairman.) When was the language framed, .and by whom? (Lord Rothschild.) That I could not tell you. 14181. (Major Evcms-Gordon.) It is like Hindustani. It is a thing which has grown with the population. Hindustani is Italian, Arabic, and Sanskrit mixed altogether, but there are many dialects. You find a great many different dialects ?—Yes, but they all under- stand my dialect because it is the English dialect. 14182. Am I not right in saying that it is the upper grades of the trade in which the native Jew and the •Christian are working, and that these are cheaper and lower grades in which the aliens work?—No, the alien Jew will do just as much good work as. the native Jew. There is an upward tendency and not a lower tendency in our trade in .consequence of the utility of the sewing machine. That ought to be taken into consideration. 14183. Then you speak of disseminating abroad the .conditions erf the English labour market ?—Yes. 14184. Do you think that would' have a deterrent effect?—A great deal. 14185. I must point out to you that that is done to :a great extent already?—Yes. 14186. I have been present when people have desired ^o emigrate abroad, and they have said : " Take care what you are doing. You will tumble into very bad circumstances in England." They do do their best?— Yes, but they do not point out the conditions of labour. 14187. I do not think they would understand' it very ;well ?—If it was printed in Yiddish I think they would. If it came officially from the Jewish workers here they would know it was not a cooked affair. 14188. I think that is very well worth considering? —Yes, I think so. 14189. The Jewish Board of Guardians do do that from time to time ?—I have no knowledge of the Jewish Board of ^ Guardians' work. I know they issue from time to time sanitary notices which are very useful. 14190. Anyhow, all these remedies that you suggest lead one to suppose that you. admit there is at present, at all events, an excessive immigration?—That is so. It cannot be denied. 14191. How do these alien employers treat their -employees? Do they treat them badly?—-Very badly indeed, unfortunately. 14192. Have you come across cases in which they have been assaulted ?—I have, and we have issued sum- monses, and they have been dismissed because the magistrate was not able to understand the Yiddish language. He was unable to detect the truth or falsity of either of the statements, and to be on the right side he dismissed the case. 14193. Have you come across cases of the alien em- ployer running away and leaving his workmen in the lurch as to their wages?—That has been so ; but, of course, aliens are not the only persons. I have known Englishmen to do that as well—bankrupts and other people leav© their businesses and go away. 14194. Do you know anything about the cabinet makers, and one case in which they gave £6,000 to a Jewish union which afterwards abandoned the cause. I meant to ask Mr. O'Grady in reference to that?—Mr. O'Grady replied to some of my notes which I was writing in " Reynoldsi's," and he did point out that it cost their organisation £6,000 to help the alien workers in getting their concession, and then afterwards they left the organisation. That is so. I find it in our trade where one obtains good concessions for them and they leave us in the lurch afterwards ourselves, and we have to pay all the debts. When I say " we " I mean the officials and some of the remaining members. 14195. Is it the case that you find the aliens leave the unions in order to become sweating employers ?— Yes, they do, and we have a great deal to contend with with these people. We find them worse than those who have been employers for some considerable time. 14196. (Lord Rothschild.) Did I understand you cor- rectly to state that the alien does not displace native labour?—No, I did not say they do not displace it. So far as the bakers are concerned, I said I do not think they displaced English bakers. 14197. What do you say of your own trade?—To a certain extent English labour must be displaced, and English labour is being displaced by Englishmen them- selves and by Englishwomen. The alien is not the only cause of the displacement of English workmen. English workmen and women also displace their fellow country- men. 14198. Would you say all the foreign labour was un- skilled ?—I did not say so at all. I say all labour is skilled. There is no such thing as unskilled labour. 14199. Supposing the factory system were largely in- creased, what effect would that have ?—Upon the aliens do you mean ? 14200. No, upon the trade generally?—A very bad effect. 14201. Why ?—Because in the factories my impression from my experience from visiting large factories is that mostly females are employed in the factories at a very low wage, of course. I can point out cases where in the west of England females work for from 4s. to 5s. a week. Some' get more, but I have known it to be done, and I have known a, young girl to go home with 6s. after a week's work. 14202. I suppose the factory system encourages sub- division ?—Certainly. 14203. What I think now is called the system of standoutisation " ?—I do* not know what they call it, but I call sub-division sub-division; I like to call a thing by the right name, so that I can understand it. 14204. Supposing that this cheap clothing were not made in England, would not it be made abroad ?—It would have to be made somewhere. 14205. (Chairman.) Why do you think it, would have to be made .somewhere ?—The people cannot walk about naked. The law does not allow it. 14206. We have been hearing from some witnesses that clothes ought not to be cheap; they do not wish to see cheap olothing. Why do you say cheap clothing must be made somewhere as distinguished from high class olothing P—Because the workmen are unable to purchase high class clothing. I do not think a workman could give more than 35s. for a suit of clothes. Of course, there are suits of clothes about 18s. 6d., ;and also there are suits of clothes for five guineas and six /guineas but a workman cannot pay that. He is bound to Lave Cheap clothing, but it does not: follow it is nasty My contention is that a 35s. suit is made nearly as good as a five guinea suit, although the material may not be so good. 14207. And if people cannot pay the high prices it ,advantaSe to them to obtain it at a low price'?— 14208. (Mr. VaMance.) As I understand, the condi- tions you have described are the result of an excessiveMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 501 •supply of alien labour?—Both of alien labour and the introduction of scientific machinery. They both react upon the Conditions of work. 14209. With reference to scientific machinery, does not that enable you to increase your production and so to compete with the foreign markets ?—'Yes, it does, hut I - do not think we can compete with America. We have tried to compete with America. Our export has tried to compete with America, hut the articles' produced there are far superior to what we can produce. The cause of that is that it is the f emalei labour here which reduces the quality of workmanship. Had our labour been in the hands of imen working on a sub-division of labour we should have retained even some of the Ameri- can markets'. 14010. Are men only employed in the American trade ? —-More men than women in America. 14211. Is the ability of the; Americans to compete the .result of a la.rger introduction of labour-saving ^machinery ?—Yes. 14212. The Americans are not so afraid of the intro- - duction of machinery as the English workmen?—No, they are not so afraid. 14213. Prior to the strike in 1889, was there then an excessive supply of labour in your trade?—Not so much as after the report of the sweating, because the em- ployers got so afraid as to the conditions under which the work was. being made, that they opened very large factories and employed females in preference to the out- workers. 14214. It is not immigration of which you complain, 'tout "the excessive inflow of workers ?—Yes. 14215. Therefore you are not in favour of shutting out the alien ?—No, I dp not think you can shut them out, try as you may. 14216. But you think something ought to be done in the way of regulating their entry?—Yes, I think if the trade was more regulated, and I think if the employers were to recognise the principles of the Trades Union, if they could work together and harmoniously, I think you could regulate the trade an such -a way as there would be very few strikes. That is my opinion. 14217. Then you said there is so much tension and feel- ing in the East End of London that there is reason to fear that riots and turbulence may be the result if it - continues ?—That is my impression. 14218. And you say that the feeling arises in a large measure from the conditions as regards rent?—Kent chiefly. 14219. Are those high rente and increasing rents to be • alone attributed to alien immigration ?—That I think is the chief thing, because if you take, for instance, the -unemployed processions that passed through the streets iof London, and I have noticed them very carefully you £nd very few of those, according to appearance, were en- gaged in our particular industry, but they do very largely complain as to being shoved out of their houses, - and I complain myself, because as an Englishman it is very difficult even for me to get a place to live in myself. I have to go out somewhere about four or five mile®, and it is a very -great annoyance. The English- man would say, " Here am I, an Englishman, in my own . country, and I cannot find room where I want to." It may be right or it may be wrong, but that is the feeling in the East End now. 14220. 'Supposing it had never been legally possible to overcrowd a tenement, would it have been possible for •' aliens or natives to have paid the excessive rents which they can pay now ?—I do not quite follow. 14221. Supposing it had never been legally possible to '■ overcrowd a tenement, would it be possible for any occupier, native or alien, of that tenement to pay the - excessive rents which are being paid?—No, I do not - think it would be possible. If a certain number of per- sons only were allowed to remain in the house they could not afford to pay the rent, and consequently the " rent would have to be reduced. 14022. {Chairman.) We have heard of cheap clothing such as cheap waistcoats and cheap shoes, at 13d a pair and so on ?—-Yes. • r > 14223. And cheap furs?—Yes. 14224. Rabbit skins?—Yes, said as furs sometimes. 14225. I should call a ra.bhit skin a fur but iww -Jtnrnd that In the first place as regards the public do .you regard the production of those articles at a clieap price as a benefit or an injury?—The article itself being > Mr. L common, I think it is an injury. Lyonsj 14226. To the general public?—Yes. If you take a 5™ "1903 common shoe, never mind about the make', it affects the ♦ foot very badly. You will find in a very short while the person will have swollen feet in consequence of the bad leather being heated. 14227. Take the case of a female whoi has not the 2s. 6d. or 2s. required, but only has 13d., had she better go without shoes?—What is the use of having a cheap shoe if -she can only wear it a few days ? 14228. Then she must go bare-footed according to you ? —It is very seldom I found a female not having sufficient money to buy a pair of shoes. She will always save suf- ficient money for that. 14229. Taking the new article, the cheap fur, is that detrimental to the poor persons who enjoy it?—No, but I find very few poor persons buy fur. 14230. I am speaking of the cheap rabbit skin?—Yes, very few people buy a cheap rabbit skin even then. 14231. You said cheap goods must come from some- where ?—The question was put to me that if they were not produced here they would have to come from some- where evidently. 14232. What is to prevent the cheap- waistcoat and the cheap shoe coming from somewhere ?—Nothing to prevent it now, only it would not pay them in Ger- many, for instance, although they work at very low wages there; I do not think they could compete with the English market, because however cheap they pro- duce it, the natives here will produce it just as cheap, and there is the co-st of the carriage. 14233. The native will produce it as cheaply as th« alien?—As the alien abroad. 14234. Or the alien heTe?—Yes, cheaper. The aliens here do not go in for the very low class of tailoring. That isi all done by the females in the factories. 14235. English females ?—Yes. It is a mistake to think that the low class: goods are being made by aliens. They are not. 14236. This is contrary to what we have been told. We understood that the aliens produce the cheap goods, the result of cheap labour. According to you that is not so ?—No, I have never found it. They produce the middle class work, but the lowest class of tailoring, the cheapest class of tailoring for men's clothing is done by native females. 14237. And they would do it whether the aliens were here or not?—Certainly. I should also like to point out the best class of juveniles (and we have a reputa- tion for the best class of juvenilesi in the world) is also done by native females. That is not a trade in which the aliens are engaged. 14238. If the aliens belong to a trades union, what complaint would you make of their presence here as workmen ?—I do not make any complaint if they belong to a trades union and work in harmony with English trades unions in the same conditions. I [have never some across an English trades unionist who complained of the alien being a trade unionist. The only complaint is that he is not a member of the trades unions to help him to get better conditions. 14239. You do have English native workmen who do not belong to trades unions ?—Certainly, more is the shame for them. 14240. You complain of a man because (he does not belong to a trades union, whether he be a native or an alien ?—Yeis. 14241 Apart from that fact, have you any complaint to make against the existence of the alien 'here?—Not particularly. 14242. Or generally?—Except on the rent question. Of course, that affects both English and alien. 14243. 'Speaking with this experience and knowledge, can you suggest any legislation that could be used to interfere with the existence of the alien in thisi country either coming or when he is here. I mean legislation and not influence ?—No, I cannot suggest anything. I cannot see how you are going to stop the immigration by legislation, because they will always find ways and means, of coming here. Say you had this test, and a man says1: " I am a bootmaker," and you apply the test, and !he satisfies you. Then in less than three months, if he does not find any work in his boot line he will come into the tailoring industry, or into some other502 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. L. occupation. Therefore the bootmaking test is entirely 'Lyons. gone, and you. have a man unemployed in a particular trade, so I cannot see what kind of legislation can be 5 Miw\ 1903. adopted. It is very difficult to me as an ordinary work- -— man, I am not a legislator. I might suggest something, perhaps, if I were a member of Parliament, but at pre- sent I am not. 14244. We were only asking you for any idea. ?—I am not likely to be a member of Parliament. 14245. (Mr. Lyttelton.) I see you were saying that the alien labour was not always the inferior labour 1—No. 14246. Have you seen a report of a case I was told by , one of the judges She tried at Leeds on one of these Government contracts ? Have you happened to see it ? —No, I have not seen it. 14247* He told me that the evidence there was' that the Jewish worker there got 3s. 6d., whereas the native worker was only getting 2s. 8d. ?—Yes, ,14248. {Chairman.) Was that a Jewish alien?—• (Mr. Lyttelton.) I was not told that.—There is a great deal to be said in reference to the Government contracts, I must admit. I heard the Chairman put the question to a witness the other day as to whether. any blame could be attached to the Government in reference to the low wages. I do not blame thef Government or anyone in the Ordnance Department, but I blame the officials of the Orditance Department in not seeing that the wages scheduled are paid. I do not blame the Government or anybody, except that the officials should visit from time to time the factories and examine the books of the workers in order to find that the wages there are scheduled. My experience isi that during the last three weeks, .there has been a great strike at a Government contractor's in the East End. The name of the firm is Lotery and Co* They had a certain over- coat to be made. The machinists were offered lOd. for it. The men wanted Is. 6d. They could not make it for lOd. He raised it to Is. They could not make it then, and he raised it to Is. 4d. They agreed to take (that, and out of spite, because he had to pay Is. 4d. he turned them out of the factory, and refused to let them in. t I only point that out to show that in the first in- stance he offered 10d., and ran it up to Is. 4d., show- ing clearly that he wanted to reduce the wages of these aliens, which, of course, (had nothing whatever to, do with the officials of the Ordnance Department. There- fore I .suggest that in all contracts given out by the Government the Government contractor should have a scheduled list of prices on the wall or handed out to the workers, so that the English and alien can compete, and take their chance of having the work. 14249. You are in accord with the witness who gave evidence the other day?—Yes. 14250. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Has not the Govern- ment inspector who goes down now to the factories to look at the wages book ?—I do not know whether he has that power, but he has a difficulty there, because he does not understand the Yiddish language, and there- fore he does not understand them, a^d they do not understand him. I would suggest to this Commission to adopt one of the points recommended by the Sweat- ing Committee. It is only a very short paragraph, and I think it ought to* be taken into consideration. The- recommendation of the Sweating Committee in reference- to inspection is this: " We are also of opinion that as- respects administration an adequate number of in- spectors should be appointed to enforce a due observance of the law. It has been suggested that the inspectors- should be assisted by workmen having practical know- ledge of the trades inspected, and paid only the wages, of artisans." I thiak if the recommendation of the Sweating Committee were adopted by this Commission,. and they suggested that workmen engaged in this trade should have inspectors capable of understanding the- language, sweating would be abolished in Government , factories. It is only because they cannot understand English that they are deceived. 14251. You say you do not see any means of keeping; these people out ?—I cannot see how legislation will- keep them out. 14252. Do you see any hope, judging from your past. experience, that your trades union remedy is likely to • succeed, considering that the whole history of trades unionism among these people is that they join and lea ve - and become sweating employers themselves, and so on?" —I would suggest, for instance, that the Jewish trades , unions have been greatly hampered and opposed by the - remarks made in the " Jewisth Chronicle " of late. Then- we have been attacked by the sermons of the clergymen in the synagogues, and instead of helping us they have discouraged the people, and ask them not to join their' respective trades unions. 14253. What do you assign as the reason for that. Arei they against trades unions in principle?—Yes, I do not think they would like to see a large body of organised workmen together. They think they would break away from the synagogue ; but my experience1 is • different, and I think if we were greatly encouraged by the Jewish community, instead of being opposed, I venture to suggest that in less than two years, with our influence working together with the employers, we * would stop a great deal of this immigration. That is; my opinion. 14254. What does the Zionist School say. Are they- against you, too ?—No. 14255. Are you on friendly terms with the Zionists ?' —Yes. In fact, they are helping us, because when we- get to Palestine we shall want to 'be tract \s unionists. There may be sweating conditions there for „ ill we know, and we want to be able to face it; but I do not see any chance of getting to Palestine yet. 14256. One thing more. Would you place any re- striction on the coming in of diseased people ?—I think there ought to be some restriction of those as opposed' to the natives. 14257. Would you place any restriction with regard • to people of known bad character ?—Certainly I should: not allow them to come, provided it was known. 14258. Would you get rid of people of bad character —repatriate them ?—-I do not suggest what you should ", do with them, but think they ought to be stopped. 14259. You would like to keep them cut T—Certainly. Mr. William Mars ton, called; and Examined. Mr. W. 14260. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You appear before the Marston. ' Commissioners! m the representative of jfchei Leeds - branch of the Amalgamated Society of Tailors ?—Yes. 14251. You have been secretary of this branch for how many years ?—Thirty-two years. 14262. You have been associated with the tailoring trade all your life ?—I have. 14263. You are also a member of the Leeds City Council ?—That is so. 14264. And Chairman of the Clothing Committee of the City Council P—A member of the Watch Committee, and the Clothing Committee is a sub-committee of which I am chairman. 14265. You yourself are engaged in the bespoke tailoring business ?—Ye®, that is so, as a journeyman tailor. : 14266. I understand your special object in appearing as a witness is to) say how thisi particular bespoke busi- ness is affected by the immigration into Leeds of aliens ? —Tha£ is so, 14267. (Chairman.) What is the bespoke business ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Goods made to order. 14268. (Chairman.) Do you work as an artisan?—Yes,. I work as an artisan. 14269. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Before dealing with this phase of the question about immigration, and how" it affects the bespoke trade, I should like you to clear the ground by saying how the bespoke business is to be distinguished as a separate business. Leeds is, I believe, the centre of the cheap ready-made clothing , industry ?—That is so. 14270. And it is so much recognised as such a centre that the large firms have migrated to Leeds from Glasgow and elsewhere?—That is so; firms employing about 2,000 people. 14271. This migration to Leeds from Glasgow is to a large extent due to1 the proximity of Bradford ?—Not necessarily. 14272. To some extent?—To some extent from the* fact that Bradford produces cheap worsteds.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 503 14273. It is also .a cloth manufacturing district?— ^Formerly it lias been a cloth manufacturing district of superfine cloth, but latterly it has gone in for cheap clothing. 14274. Leeds was formerly a cloth manufacturing dis- trict ?—Yes, and to a small extent it is so still. 14275. It isi (specially the centre of cheap clothing, .and it is for the ready-made clothing industry that .'Leeds is celebrated now ?—Yes. .14276. And cheap tweeds are also made in Leeds?— "Yes. 14277. And the Bradford worsted material is largely ^used in Leeds?—To a great extent. 14278. In Leeds there are large tailoring factories, .are there not?—Yes, employing from 2,200 people downwards. 14279. 2,200 people in one factory?—Yes. 14280; In the factories in which native labour is . almost entirely used ?—Native female labour isTTargely vused, and almost exclusively used in the factories. A great amount of juvenile clothing is given over into the homes of the workers, to make in unregistered houses. 14281. In the factories, I understand that native -female labour is largely employed ?—That is so-. 14282. In the juvenile branch is the work given out ? '—A great amount is given out in the juvenile branch, • and mad© in the homes of the people in unregistered workshops. 14283. Are the large majority of the workers in this home work also the women ?—The large majority are women. 14284. Doing home work ?—Yes, almost exclusively. .14285. I understand that in these factories trousers, "waistcoats, .and the entire juvenile suits are made?— ..Almost exclusively. 14286. Therefore in the manufacture of these par- ticular garments alien labour takes little or no part?— Not a great deal. 14287. Alien labour does, however, play a very im- portant part in the manufacture of the coat?—That is •sBO. 14288. It is a curious distribution. In some 1 branches they take a large part, and in others none ?— 'Yes. 14289. The coats are cut into sections, and these sec- tions are arranged into 'bundles in the factory ?—It is cut to the number of some hundred®, and sent to the workshops to be made. 14290. The coat is cut up in the English factory into "bundles and sent to the- Jewish workshops to be made vup ?—Yqs. Some of the Jewish workshops employ from 150 men downwards. 14291. ([Chairman.) Arfa they Jewish)?—Exclujsively • Jewish men, but there are English females. 14292. (Major Evans-Gordon.) When you say Jewish - do you mean English born. Jew or foreign Jew?—-Both mixed together; both English born Jew and alien. 14293. There are, I believe, 297 tailors' workshops in Leeds ?—Prom the .statement made by the Medical "Officer of Health that is the number of registered work- : shops. 14294. Of those 180 are occupied by Jews ?—Yes. 14295. Are those English Jews and aliens mixed or • chiefly English?—'They are mixed. Some of them are i English Jews. They are mixed. 14296. Are the Jews employed in any of the work- shops occupied by natives ? When I say native there I mean English?1—In the wholesale clothing, do you ..mean? 1429.7. Yes ?—'Both are employed. 14298. Jew and Gentile t—Not many Gentiles. There ; are a few—very few. 14299. Native Jew .and alien1?—To some small extent " the native Jew, but not to a large extent. 14300. Largely aliens ?—Yes. 14301. To some extent the English Jew, but largely z aliens ?—That is -sa. 14302. I believe your union has no objection to the ^employment of J ews in thas® workshops %—None what- ever. Our union has spent some thousands of pounds in trying to educate them, and get, them into some society—to organise them. 14303. So far as the conditions of work are in accord- ance with the general regulations, you have no objec- tion?—No, we welcome them, and do all we can to assist them. It is not racial feeling or creed. 14304. It is only the conditions of work ?—Yes. 14305. You welcome them and assist them ?—Yes. Mr. W. Marston. 5 Mar. 1903. 14306. I believe there can be said to be no sweating in the well-managed Jewish workshops?—Not in the well-managed Jewish workshops. 14307. There is nothing in the way of .sweating in the well-managed workshops ?—In consequence of being fairly well-organised they have done away with a good deal of that sweating. 14308. In the well-managed workshops, in conse- quence of tan organisation amongst the Jewish workmen, they hay© done away with sweating to a large extent ?— Yes, and greatly improved the position, but there are some other workshops. 14309. That improvement is greatly due, in your opinion, to Jewish trades unions ?—That is so. 14310. Those Jewish trades, unions work harmoniously with your trades unions We tare very glad to do all we can to assist. 14311. It is with people outside the union that sweats ing and bad conditions go on?—That is so. 14312. That sweating and those bad conditions are facilitated by tfe3 supply of alien labour from abroad. I® that so ?—That is so. 14313. Now, to come to the bespoke business. Here, I believe, your grievance against the alien principally begins ?—Yes, that is so. 14314. Let us first consider this bespoke business so far as,it is connected with the manufacturing business-. Is any bespoke business done by the proprietors of fac- tories P—Yes. There is a class of business done by the proprietors of factories called "specials"; that is order trade secured by travellers, and then the orgies is brought to the factory. 14315. And executed there?—No, not in the factory. The coats are sent to the Jewish workshops, and made up at a greatly reduced price to what is paid in the ordinary bespoke trade. 14316. The bespoke trade is carried on in the factories. They send travellers, round, who bring the measures back, and the things are out up in the factory, and then they are sent into the workshop and made up there?—The Jewish workshops. 14317. At prices very much below those current in the bespoke trade ?■—Principally in tweed suits. 14318. That you object to?—That we strongly object to; 14319. On the ground that it leads to bad conditions ? —That is so. 14320. And disorganises th© trade ?—Yes, and injures the English workman. May I be allowed to make a further statement? Thirty years ago Leeds had about 550 men working in first and second class establishments under conditions arranged by the society mutually agreed upon between the employer and the employe. At the present time I do not think there are more than 250 tailors working in Leeds at the bespoke business. Belfast has only about half the population of Leeds, and New- castle has scarcely half the population of Leeds, but there are in Belfast 800 tailors working at the bespoke trade, and in Newcastle between 500 and 600. This is largely and almost exclusively due to the aliens not having got any footing in these two towns. The condi- tions are very greatly improved to what they have in Leeds. In Leeds the wages received in the bespoke tailoring trade are the same as they were 32 years ago ; in. fact, they are less, because there is a discount of 12J per cent, on all tweed goods in order to meet this cheap labour. No advance has been made in Leeds in the past 3.2 years, while in every other town in the United Kingdom nearly a considerable advance has been made. That is largely due to the influx of the alien population. 14321. You deduce this, broad fact, that owing to the influx of cheap alien labour things have been kept down in Leeds where they have advanced in other towns?— That is so.504 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGKATION : My. Yv \ Marstcm. 5 Mar. 1903. 14322. How is this cheapness, attained in the bespoke trade?—By sub-division of labour. 14323. And by sweating?—Yes. 14324. What do you call sweating ?—We call it sweat- ing below the recognised rate of wages. 143215. For long hours and -under worse conditions ?—. Yes. 14326. With regard to this undercutting by the alien, the immigrant coming in is complained of equally strongly by the native Jew and the native English worker ?—That is so. (iChairman.) Have we the Leeds statistics ? 14327. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We have the Census returns?—The Census returns afford no valuable infor- mation,, inasmuch as they only recognise' those who were bom abroad. There were a number of foreigners born abroad. Thera were about 7,800 when the last Census wasi taken, and iabout 5,000 odd were Austrians or Rus- sian Pole®. There are a few Germans—not more than a few hundreds—and also French and Italians, very few—■ about 57. We estimate from the most reliable informa- tion we can get that there are between 15,000 and 20,000 Jews- in Leeds. 14328. As distinct from aliens ?—I mean aliens. 14329. You mean 15,000" over and above the English Jewish population ?—No, 15,000 aliens, altogether. 14330. Over and labove the native J ewish population ? —No, I include all. 14331. There are a great many English Jews in Leeds/ ? —Yes, they occupy a very large part of the city. 14332. (Lord Rothschild.) The Jewish population of Leeds isi 15,000 ?—Not less than 15,000. I estimate it to be much more than 15,000. 14333. ('Chairman.) 15,000 as a minimum?—Yes. 14334. The total Jewish population?—Yes. 14335. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The point you want to emphasise is that it is the old difficulty, namely, that the children born of foreign parents in this country are not enumerated as foreigners?—-No, they are described as Englishmen. 14336. Anyhow, the English Jewish population com- plain of the immigrant in the sense that they undercut their prices and.disturb their trade?—By the introduc- tion of a class of people called greeners, who know nothing about the trade. They come into Leedsi in order to learn a division of the trade, and they work four or, five weeks for nothing, and then they get a very small wage afterwards. 14557. And work very long hours ?—Yes. Then, when they become proficient, they are displaced by other greeners. 14338. As soon as a greener makes headway his ground is cut from under him by another greener ?—That is so. 14339. With regard to living conditions, do these people live, under bad conditions—do you know anything about that?—The standard of living, with a few excep- tions, is much below the English, standard, and also it is very much congested, two or three families living in one house in many instances. 14340. Is it overcrowded?—Yes, so much so that the Leeds City Council are clearing about 60 acres of ground largely occupied by alien population—not exclusively, hut largely occupied by them. 14341. That will drive them elsewhere into other parts of the town?—It will drive them elsewhere, -but it is fair •bo assume that they must be pretty close together on account of their mode of living. 14342. On account of their religion and language, .and so on ?—Yes. 14343. I understand thaJfc there is a sub-division of labour which is peculiar to these people ?—Yes. 14344. And not adopted by English tailors ?—No, the English workman serves his time to the trade, and is not oonsidared proficient until he can manipulate a garment from commencement to finish. 14345. On; the other band, these people learn this one portion of it ?—This1 one portion, and no more. They a-re mot able to work at anything more. 14346. That is not approved of by the union at all ?— No.. 14347. What are the objections you have to this sub- division?—Our • objection to the sub-division of labour- is that it cheapens labour, and injures the workman. That is our objection. We think it necessary, in order to procure a perfect garment, that the man who com- mences with it should make it throughout. 14348. He .should be able to make it throughout ?---- Yes.. Perhaps I may be permitted to state, that in some of the best West End firms in London formerly tlie coat was very much divided, .and now the workman makes-- the garment throughout. 14349. (Chairman.) What is the advantage of that?— It is found to be better. He understands the manipula- tion of the garment with regard to shrinking and ful- ness, and other things, thus making the garment perfect. 14350. Does not sub-division produce cheapneiss?—.Sub- division produces cheapness. 14351. (Major Evans^Gordon.) You do not approve of : cheapness ?—Certainly not. 14352. Why not? Do you object to it as lowering the standard of the working man?—'Lowering the standard*, of the working man and lowering the standard of living,... 14353. You do not consider the consumer in that?— We do not think the consumer benefits to the extent s to which it has been assumed he does, from the fact that those, cheap garments will not last one-third of the - time; that a garment made in the bespoke department. : will. 14354. You do. not agree with the last witness that , the cheap clothing is not nasty ?—I believe it is cheap * and nasty. 14355. Then again another objection you have is, J. understand, that these methods are an encouragement to incompetent greeners to come to England ?—That is so. 14356. And by this means sweating is promoted?---- That is so. ' 14357. Can you tell us how (sweating occurs ? I do not want to trouble you to speak at length, but I understand you to say that the taking up of the bespoke business - by the Jews leads to a large amount of home work ?— That is so. 14358. And home work is bad, because it is unregu- lated, and sweating occurs?—Yes. Where men are - divided they are altogether at the mercy of the em- ployers. Where they work in shops, under the super- vision of the foreman or .employer under conditions - arr anged mutually, the conditions are very much better - than if they are separated. 14359. Does it also lead to a system of under-selling ? That is to say, one of these men will take a sample . coat round the shops and offer to make one at a very low price ?—That is done in many instances by Jews. They know the standard wages paid for the garment, and ' they go to the foreman, or sometimes to the employer, and offer to. do it at a considerable amount less. 14360. That system of under-cutting one another is constantly going on ?—That has been done recently, and I have a case in point now, but I am not at liberty to disclose thie firm. It occurred quite recently, when a Jewish workman went with a frock coat, knowing the standard price paid for it, and offered to make it for a considerable amount less than what was paid in the - workshop. The foreman refused to engage him. That was quite recently. I am not at liberty to disclose the . firm, but I can assure you it is correct. 14361. Now, what are " specials " ? Is a special a gar- ment ?—It is a garment. It may be a coat or trousers. It is measured by the traveller going about the country and sent to the employers and made. It is supposed to be in connection with the bespoke trade, but it is sent to the Jewish workmen to be made by the sub-division of labour, and not made in the bespoke firm, as it is sup- posed to be. 14362. Are these greeners that come over sent for by people ?—Instances have been given where money has; been supplied by Jewish employers to their workmen to bring over their relatives, and that has been repaid by - instalments. 14363. They come over and thus injure this bespoke trade ?—That is so. 14364. Now about, the contract work, what are the conditions there ?—I scarcely understand. 14365. I see on the note of your evidence that you say something about contract work?—Contract work pro- duces cheapness from the fact that two or three em- -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 505 ployers compete, each one trying to under-sell the other. We have no objection to contract work if the standard rate of wages its paid, and the conditions which are re- cognised are adhered to. 14366. You do not approve of a man taking contract work or going in for contracts, so long as he has this cheap greeners' labour to work out his contract with F— That is so*. I may state that the Leeds School Board— all the people in the School Board offices—are all con- tracted for, and the stuff is made by first-class firms under good conditions of labour, but it is a very rare occurrence. At the present time the contract for the police clothing has been given to a Leeds firm, and it is made in very greatly improved conditions to what has hitherto been done in the East End of London. 14367. The London Metropolitan. Police work is being done at Leeds F—No, the Leeds police work, which has hitherto been done in London. 14368. It is now being done at Leeds?—Yes. The contract amounted to nearly £2,000. 14369. You say with regard to the ready-made cloth- ing industry that the big factories are the people who have made the cheap things under good conditions. That ir? the great industry which has brought benefit to the general community ?—I believe it has. 14370. That is quite compatible with good conditions in factories ?—That is so; quite compatible. 14371. It has enabled the working class to buy goods consistent with their means?—Yes, it has enabled them to buy cheap clothing, but I would not say it is good clothing. , 14372. This industry has its- centre in Leeds %—The largest centre in England is at Leeds. 14373. It is carried on in the factories ?:—Almost ex- clusively. 14374. Where alien labour is not employed?—With regard to trousers and waistcoats. 14375. And the coats?1—The coats are made in Jewish workshops, where alien, labour is almost exclusively employed, with sub-division of labour. 14376. We have already dealt with the coats. You say the action of the unions- does not tend to interfere with the production of ready-made coats, which benefit English labour in the factories, alien labour in the workshop, and the consumer ?—The action of the Jewish unions tends to largely improve the condition of the men working in these factories. 14377. It is when the alien labour overflows into the bespoke business and attacks the English tailors there that the mischief occurs ?—That is so. 14378. You do not consider cheapness, which brings the article "within the reach of all, is the first considera- tion ?—No, I think it ought to be cheap and good. 14379. You think quality is also necessary ?—Yes. I think cheap labour is largely cheap and nasty. 14380. You say where cheap alien labour competes by sub-division and sweating, it deteriorates the* article and the trade generally ?—I do. 14381. It introduces home working under bad condi- tions ?—Yes-. 14382. With a consequent overcrowding ?—Yes. 14383. And displacement of native labour ?—Y es. 14384. As is seen, the number of native bespoke tailors has dwindled from 550 to 250 F—Yes. 14385. Whereas that of alien bespoke tailors has pro- portionately increased?—Very largely increased. 14386. The advantage has not gone to the consumer, but to the alien sweater ?;—That is so—the large em- ployer. , 14387. Have you any suggestions to make?—The sug- gestion I have to make is this : that this alien immi- gration ought to be regulated ; I do not say prohibited, but it ought to be regulated. ^ 14388. How would you regulate it ?—By something similar to what prevails in South Africa and on the continent of America. 14389. You mean in the United States and South Africa F Yes. The infirm in body and mind, and those who have no visible means of subsistence, I say ought to be prevented from coming. 14390. Are you troubled much by the aliens of bad 6144. 5 Mar. 1903. character in Leeds ?—I should not like to say con- Mr. W. siderably, but there are a number. Marston. 14391. They are coming in more?—Yes, that is so. 14392. And they damage the native Jewish popula- tion?—Yes. They are very keen on litigation, and fre- quently are in the Police Court. I could not say they are guilty of any particular crime. 14393. (Mr. Vallance.) As a member of the Leeds City Council you have been brought face to face with the overcrowding problem F—That is so. 14394. Has the Council taken any special steps with a view to dealing with it ?—The Council has taken steps by clearing the insanitary area extending over 60 acres. It will be a number of years before it is accomplished. Some hundreds of houses have been pulled down, but the Local Government Board require that for every three men displaced provision must be made for two. 14395. You are under statutory requirements to pro- vide for two-thirds of the displaced ?—That is so. 14396. Has that requirement been met before the clearance was effected ?'-—To some extent it has been met by voluntary effort. It has not been done by tfie City Council. T'hey have not adopted Part 3 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, but it has been met by private builders to some extent. 14397. Do I understand that to a large extent those who have been displaced by the clearance have been provided for elsewhere ?—To some extent. I would not like to say to a large extent. 14398. Has that condition of overcrowding been accentuated by that clearance in any portion of the city?—I have no information. I think it is possible at the present time. 14399. Are active continuous measures being applied to this question of overcrowding, so as to change the con- ditions and improve the conditions ?—Active continuous measures are being applied by the continual pulling down of insanitary dwellings and clearing this area. 14400. You have sanitary inspectors, I take it?— That is so. 14401. If a -sanitary inspector discovers a serious con- dition of overcrowding, and by serious condition I mean a condition of overcrowding by other than one family, what steps would be taken by the sanitary inspector ?— Untii proper provision is made a little latitude is allowed at present. Otherwise when it is very bad the. house is closed, and application is made to the magis- trates for removal. 14402. Supposing an inspector found, you say, two* families in a room, what steps would bo taken in such. an extreme case as that ?!—He would give them notice in order to- get another house and further accommodation, but it is not strictly applied at present, because the- City Council have not made sufficient provision for those people who are displaced. 14403. Do yo-u find that the powers you have are sufficient to deal with the question of overcrowding in . Leeds?—If we adopted Part 3 of the Housing of the- Working Classes Act, which enables the Council to pur- chase land outside the city boundary. 14404. In London there are certain congested areas in which it has been stated in evidence the condition of things is largely owing to the immigration of aliens. Is that a condition which operates in Leeds ?—That is . so. 14405. There are localities in Leeds inhabited by these aliens?—Yes. 14406. Under more or less overcrowded conditions ?— More or less overcrowded conditions. 14407. Would you say that that overcrowding isr occasioned by the .alien immigration or by the general demand?—Largely by the alien immigration, in my opinion. 14408. Do you find that the ownership of these tene- ment houses occupied by the very poor, and by the aliens, has got into the hands of aliens ?—Yery largely. At a meeting of the City Council yesterday a resolution was adopted giving notice to perhaps 70 or 80 owners of blocks of houses, .and two-thirds of those were Jewish. owners. 14409. The City Council are at all events applying themselves to the question ?—That is so. 14410. In your trade has there been up to the present any great excess of labour %—A very large excess. 3 S506 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr, W. Marston/ 5 Mar. 1903. 14411. Is that excess attributable to the alien im- migration ?—It is largely attributable to the alien im- migration, and also to its being a season trade. 14412. During the busy season they are more or less employed ?—That is so. 14413. Would you say that the aliens are in excess of the requirements of your trade in Leeds ?1—Very largely iiri excess. 14414. Without the .aliens would you be able to carry on the trade at all in its present volume?—I think without the aliens more females would be employed; machinists particularly. We find a great deal of the best classi of machinist work is passed to aliens which lias hitherto been done by females. 14415. You mean that the volume of production would not have been materially reduced even if you had mo alien population?—I think not. I think it would give employment to a greater number of women. 14416. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You stay that you clear the insanitary area under Part 1 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act ?—Under Part 3. 14417. Part 3 deals with rehousing, but when you. put the Housing of the Working Classes Act into operation you start under Part 1 ?—Yes. 14418. What do you do when you have cleared ?'— No attempt has been made by the Corporation to re- house. It has been found that there is sufficient com- petition amongst builders. 14419. Do you sell the cleared area?—Yes. It is made into wider streets, .so a good deal is appropriated to public use. 14420. How is the rehousing carried out ?—By private enterprise. 14421. I suppose you hell under rehousing condi- tions ?—Yes. 14422. Do you find any difficulty now in disposing of •she land cleared ?—Not much. There is considerable 'Competition for land in the centre of the city. 14423. And you get the full price for it?—Very good prices as a rule from private speculators. 14424. Not from companies or benevolent associa- tions?—Largely from private speculators. 14425. Ybu found no difficulty in disposing of the -cleaned area?—No. 14426. (Mr. Norman ) You said that aliens of bad • character are making their appearance in Leeds?— There are some bad characters. 14427. Upon what grounds do you base that state- ment ?-^From the number of aliens appearing in the police courts, and my experience as a magistrate. 14428. Was ready-made clothing originally an English industry ?—Originally. ^ 14429. My point is that we are frequently told that it was introduced into thisi country by aliens ?—It was introduced into Leeds by Hya.ni and Co., who were • quickly followed by Sir John Barran. 14430. How was it introduced into Belfast and New- castle?^ am not aware, there is much introduced into Belfast' and Newcastle. I say in consequence of the • absence of aliensi in Belfast and Newcastle the men are -working under greatly improved conditions to what they ;are in Leeds. 14431 (Mr. Lyttelton.) In speaking of the bespoke work you referred to a portion of such work being done in factories ?—Yes. 14432. And a portion of it being done outside in Jewish workshops?—Yes. 14433. ^ What portion is done in the factory!—The portion in the factory is principally trousers and waist- coats. In Jewish workshops it is the coats. 14434: The result is that the combined effect of the factory , and .Jewish workshop is to produce cheaper thaii the ordinary bespoken craftsman can do ?—-That is so, and in consequence of that very many of the prin- cipal Employers in Leeds who had all the work done on the premises formerly also give work out to be made in the homes of the people, I am sorry to say under worse conditions than are found in the workshops. 14435. Did you hear or read of that case at the Leeds Assizes, in which a question of a Government contract came up, and the prices that were given for labour P—In connection with the boot trade do you mean ? 14436. No-. It was quite within the last week in con- nection. with the clothing trade?—No, I have not seen it. The Assizes were held in December. Had it been at the December Assizes I should have heard of it. 14437. The judge who was there told me yesterday about it. It was in the paper last week, I understand. He only told me it appeared in the evidence in that case that Jewish workmen were receiving for great coats 3s. 6d., whereas the Englishmen were only re- ceiving's. 9d. ?:—I have not seen it. It is a very ex- ceptional case. 14438. I was going to ask you whether the fact, if it was a fact, coincides with your experience ?—Quite the opposite. 14439. Are the Jewish workmen skilful in cutting coats ?—I do not know of any Jewish, cutters. 14440. What is the work that is chiefly done in these Jewish workshops ?—It is cut in the large warehouses by English firms. 14441. If the work that is done in the factories con- sists of waistcoatsi and trousers, and the work that is done in Jewish workshops consists of coats, does not it follow that there must be Jewish cutters in the Jewish workshops ?—Not necessarily. It is cut in the large manufacturing warehouses, and forwarded to the Jewish workshops. 14442. I thought you told me all the coat was done in the Jewish workshop ?:—No. 14443. What part is done?—It is cut in the ware- house, and sient to the Jewish workshop. 14444. What is done when it is sent to the Jewish workshop after it has been cut in the warehouse ?—It is , made up by the subdivision of labour. 14445. I am not familiar with this process, and I want to know what is thei process of making them?'—• The process of making up is similar to what is done m the wholesale by a subdivision of labour, and sent back to the warehouse. 14446. What is making up?—Making up the gar- ment. 14447. You say it is cut in the warehouse?'—Yes. 14448. That is to say a piece of cloth is cut out ?—« Yes. 14449. Without any shape or form ?—No. It is cut out according to the measure, the same as is done in the bespoke trade. 14450. Is it merely put together and sewn in the work- shop ?—Put together and sewn in the workshop. 14451. Is that all that is dome in the workshop?— Yes. 14452. Is that unskilled work ?—It is skilled work to a great extent, but it is produced cheap on account of the subdivision of labour. 14453. I do not understand how you can subdivide sewing ?—One person will be engaged in making a sleeve of a coat and another person will be engaged in making the fore part, and another person will be engaged in the collar and another in the pockets. 14454. In each case the skilful part of the work, which is the cutting and shaping, iai done in the warehouse ?— No, the shaping of the garment ought to be manipulated by the workmen. 14455. Then in point of fact all the really skilful part of the work is done in the workshops and not in the warehouse ?—The skilful part of the work is done in the warehouse in the cutting. 14456. I do not really follow you. The merely mechanical part of cutting out according to measure ?-l It is not mechanical. It is scientific. It is according to the measurement of the person. He might be de- formed. 14457. What remains to be done in the workshop except the sewing ?:—Sewing and pressing, and putting the various parts together. 14458. (Chairman.) Have you any account of the persons unemployed in Leeds? Do you keep any register of them ?—Jn the clothing trade do you mean ? 14459. Yes ?—No. 14460. How is trade now? Are there many urnem-MINUTES OF EVIPJSNCE. 507 ployed P—There are a great many unemployed. It is largely in the ironware trade. There are between 3,000 and 4,000. 14461. I am speaking of the clothing trade. Are there any unemployed there ?'—Yes, and particularly in the shoe trade. You will have information as to" that on Monday, I believa '14462. Is that number more than usual.? Has it been an increasing number or not?—It has been an in- creasing number. There are a number of unemployed in the shoe trade, and work is provided, for them by the Leeds City Councils—remunerative work. 14463. What about wages ? Have they risen or fallen in your trade ?—In the clothing, trade they have fallen, so^ar as I know. So far as I have information the wages are less than they were some time ago. 14464. To what, extent?—I do not know, .but I have had the statement made by Jewish workmen that they were working under worse conditions to what they were, although they were working under better conditions than they were. a little time ago on account of being organised, but they are not so good as they were some time ago on account of the continued influx of aliens. 14465. Is there any account of trade prices for piece- work kept in the factories?—I believe in accordance with new regulations that is so, but they are continually being reduced or attempted to be reduced. 14466. Did I understand you to say that the trousers Were made in Leeds by Englishmen, and the coats by aliens ?—J uvenile clothing is largely done in the homes of the workers at unregistered workshops. The adult trousers and waistcoats are made in the warehouses by girls and women with men present. ' 14467. What do the aliens work upon principally?-— Coats. In one firm in, Leeds. I may say there are about 114 aliens employed. ' *14468. 'Are these coats inferior articles because aliens make t h em ?—They are not so well made as when made by the English population. 14469. If a man bought a whole suit at Leeds one garment would wear out much sooner than the other ?— Yes, that is so. 14470. That is apparent, I suppose?—That is so. They are not so well stayed as they are in the bespoke trade. 14471. He would find his coat off his back, while the other garment was all right?—It applies all through. Mr. W. marston. ,5 Mar. 1903. Mr. Hob eh t Ltjmsden, called ; and Examined. 14472. (Mr. Norman.) You are the cheek weighman at the Doctors Colliery of the Wishaw Coal Company, Motherwell ?—That is so. 14473. To begin with, can you give us any particulars of the numbers of aliens employed in the mines in your district %—I could not give you the exact number of aliens employed in the district, but I believe there are between 500 and 600 aliens. 14474. Have your '.numbers increased to your know- ledge in recent years ?—Yes, they are increasing every week, not only in the mines, but they are going into the steel works too. In the Lanarkshire Steel Works there are a great number of Poles employed. 14475. How long ago is it since there were, no aliens employed ? Is that within your memory ? I mean prac- tically not aliens ?—There have been Poles there, I am certain, this last five or six years, to my memory. 14476. How long have you yourself been employed in this district in the mines?-—I have been about nine years altogether. That takes me to 11 years ago, when I went to that district, but I was shifted, and I was two years out of it. 14477. My point is this, that the aliens are of com- paratively recent growth or development in your dis- trict?—'I would say since the 1894 strike of the miners in Scotland, but they have grown since that. 14478. (Sir Kenelm Digby.)1893, was it not?—No, 1894. 14479. (Mr. Norman.) The mines regulations are printed in the English language ?—That is so. 14480. (Chairman.) What percentage of the aliens Tcould there be of the miners employed ?— 14481. (Mr. Norman.) How many miners are there in the district, about?—<1 could not say. 14482.: You could not say what proportion 500 or 600 men would be ?—No, I could not say. 14483. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Take your own mine, how many men are there there?—There are seven aliens. 14484. The total number of men employed in the mine is what ?!—Do you mean below or above ground ? 14485. Only below ?—I should consider about 430. 14486. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are the aliens employed only below ground ?—Seven. 14487. All below ground 1—Seven out of that 430. 14488. ('Mri Lyttelton.) The .men above ground are chiefly engineers and men employed with the machinery ?—Labourers, engine men, engineers, and blacksmiths. v 14489. How many of them are there above the ground ? —I oould not say exactly. 14490. About ?—There would be between 40 and 50. 14491. How ma, T mines are there in your district, about? 6144 (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I think I can give you this in- formation at a later stage. 14492. (Mr. Norman.) Besides, we can get the exact number of miners from official returns. There are between 500 and 600 aliens in the district, you know, and you say practically the appearance of those aliens is a recent matter ?—-Yes. 14493. Now, I was asking you whether the miness regulations are printed in English ?—Yes. 14494. Can these aliens read English?—Not to my knowledge. 14495. Have you any knowledge that they cannot?— Yes, all of them in my district, with very few exceptions, can read the English language, and as far as I can learn they have only learnt the English language since they learnt it in that district. They are chiefly Poles. 14496. Would you say they are informed of the usages and rules in connection with mines, or are they ignorant of them ?—-It is a hard thing to say whether they are- ignorant or understand it; but if you speak to them, if there is anything that they do not want to know they say " Me no know." 14497. That is the kind of English they talk!1—Yes,. "Me no know." So you are left the way you started. You cannot understand whether they want to know what you mean or whether they do not; but that is the answer they give you when you speak to them on any subject. 14498. Do you consider they are in any way a source of danger to their fellow workmen ?—They are. 14499. In what .respects ?—In every respect. They are a source of danger down the mines below ground. How- ever, some of them that have been a long time in the mines certainly understand to a certain extent the • dangers that are prevalent about the place that they are working on, but the influx as they come in certainly are a danger, because they do not know anything, and. they are extremely ignorant of all the dangers prevail- ing round about them. A mine is not like a factory or anything else, Every man must stand for himselfr and be responsible for himself. 14500. Do they work for the same wages as British: workmen?—Where the union is strong then of course they have the same wages as the union members, but - where it is weak and disorganised then they are all different wages. 14501. (Mr. Lyttelton.) There are over-men in the- mines who are responsible, I suppose, for the safety of the men under them?—■ Under managers. 14502. Do you mean that these men either do not, or cannot, explain to the aliens what their duties are ?__ No,. they cannot. 14503. Has any representation ever been made offici- ally albout that?—Not to my knowledge. 14504. (Mr. Norman.) I understand you to say where 3 s 2 Mr. R. Lumsden,508 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : 11 - Lumsdev. & Marr ieos. the union is not strong the aliens take less wages ?— Yes. 14505. Where the union is less strong of course every- body gets less wages?—That is so. Everybody gets less, wages. 14506. We are not concerned in discussing the effect of the union. We want to know comparatively what are the wages* the alien gets as compared with the British workman. Are those wages less ?—I am only confining myself to the wages where I am working. They get the same wages as other men do. That is on account of the union being strong where I am employed. They get the same wages there. However, where there is 'no union certainly it is the case with everybody, but there is less chance of them kicking against being underpaid than what you will find in the British workmen. That is my opinion. 14507. Is it your experience that the alien is able to live for less than the British workman f—Yes. It was one of the aliens who gave me that information. The alien can live a great deal cheaper than the British workman. That information has been given me by an alien himself. 14508. Do you think there is any probability of these foreigners eventually ousting the British workman, in any numbers?—They are doing so as it is. You will see in part of my statement that I refer to that. 14509. Yes, I am coming to that. Are there at present large numbers of British miners out of work ?—It was in the month of June that that statement was given. 14510. Are there now ?—There are not so many now. 14511. Last June, when there were large numbers of British miners out of work, were there any foreigners out of work ?—Not to my knowledge. 14512. Can you tell us anything about the introduc- tion of boys into mines by these foreigners ?—Yes. One of the aliens told me that they had clubs, and that they paid so much per week, and each and all of them run. the chance of getting a turn, and seemingly they put that to the use of sending to their' country to bring a youth across, and that youth lives with them, and they eann practically nearly another man's wage for him in the mine. 14513. They go down into the mine?—Yes. They keep that boy and give him his food and his clothing until he begins to learn what the other aliens are able to ■earn, and then of course he begins to look for better conditions. 14514. Who pays the lad ?—The miner. 14515. (Chairman.) Is he paid by piece work?—Yes. "You understand in the mines that probably two men will work together, and only the one name is entered in the office. . 14516. The miner being paid by piece work, the mine 'owner does not care who gets if?—-No. 14517. (Mr. Norman.) Is it the case that some of these young men do not serve the two years specified toy the Mines Act before they are allowed to* act for themselves ?—As the Mines Regulation Act now stands,1 young men—'both aliens and of any other country— can come under this heading, not serving the two years specified by the Minesi Act. There are no credentials or anything used to state whether a man has served two years, one year, or a month. Say, for instance, I was looking for employment from an overman, and was a complete stranger to that overman, and I went and asked him if he had any work to give me, probably he might ask me if I had been in mines, and probably he might not; but in the event of my saying I had served two years under a skilled workman, ac- v cording to the Mines Act, that is all he would require. 14518. You mean the law is constantly evaded by ^everybody?—Constantly evaded. 14519. By everybody ?—By everybody. 14520. (Chairman.) Alien and native alike ?—Yes. 14521. (Mr. Norman.) Does this system of a workman ►getting a boy in to work for him and paying him what he likes, fairly or unfairly, prevail at all amongst the 'British workers?—It prevails among the British workers, you understand what I mean. These aliens keep their boys the same as they do their own sons, and they give them their clothing and food. 14522. What does the British workmen do?—He pays the boy so much per day, but he does not keep the boy. 14523. The boy does not necessarily live with him? —No. 14524. (Chairman.) The boy keeps himself in food ?—■ Yes. 14525. (Mr. Norman.) In fact, it is a sort of evasion of the Truck Act—the foreigner keeping the boy and paying him simply with food and clothing ?—It is really a sweating business. 14526. That is what you would call a kind of sweat- ing in the mines ?—Yes. 14527. Can you tell us anything about the feeling of the British workmen in your district on this alien ques- tion ?—There is a very strong feeling. And, when there were so many British workmen about out of work, while the foreigners were all working, certainly there was a very strong feeling amongst them that something should be done to stop the competition; because the large in- flux that is coming into the mines is simply going to oust our men. They will soon be all Pole miners, in- stead of British miners. In a colliery that I worked in that did take place. If there was a British miner and a Pole miner wanting employment the manager at that time always gave employment to the Pole miner before the British miner. 14528. (Chairman.) Why was that?—I expect he would be thinking that it would reduce the strength of the Union men to a certain extent, so that he could do what he liked. 14529. (Mr. Norman.) Then, as a general thing, it is within your knowledge that foreigners have been en- gaged, in your belief, with a view to lessening the strength of the Union in particular mines ?—That is all that I can see. 14530. That is your belief ?—Yes. At the time when that did occur the men at the colliery held a meeting, and they said that it was to be stopped or else they were going to stop. They had eleven aliens at that time, and they said that they had enough of that kind of labour amongst them, and that if it was going to continue they were going to stop and let them get all aliens if they cared to. They were the weak instead of the strong; but that was the position they took up, and the manager at that time stopped employing aliens, and it has never been the case since. I believe that thp. manager we have now does not believe in employing aliens if he can get British. 14531. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you sneaking now of your colliery in the Motherwell district ?—Yes. 14532. (Mr. Norman.) Has there ever been any breach "of the peace between alien miners and British miners?—'Not to my knowledge. 14533. Can you tell me anything about the sanitary conditions under which these aliens live?—I was in one house, and I did not care about staying very long in it, there, was such a strong smell, what it was I could not tell, but anything that was there was anything but clean. 14534. And you believe that experience to be true of the conditions of life of the aliens generally in your district?—Yes; and their appearance looks like it. I was only in that one house; and that is what I said when my statement was given, but it is rather differently set out in my statement. 14535. You said that these people are arriving every week; can you give, us any figures of the number arriving?—No, I have not the figures. 14536. Have you noticed that there has been an in- crease in these, arrivals quite recently?—Yes, I can see them passing up the street with a piece of paper in theft hands with an address on, and they go along asking this man and that man, anybody in the street, if they can direct them where to go to. They, cannot speak a word of English, but they shove a piece of paper into your hand, and, of course, you understand they want to know where a certain place is. 14537. How have they got that paper ?^I could not say. 14538. It looks rather like some kind of organised immigration, does it not?—Yes, it looks like that. That is the feeling all over the district where I come from. 14539. That it is being organised by somebody ?—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 509 14540. Somebody must have provided them with this ^address and made arrangements for them?—Yes. 14541. (Major Evans^Gordon.) We find frem the paper that Sir Kenelm Digby produced from the Home Office that there was an organisation. With regard to the ^certificate, you say that a man presenting himself for work at a mine has to have a certificate of efficiency that he has worked two years below ground, and that lie ought to be asked for that ?—Certainly. 14542. And that, if that regulation was enforced, it vwould keep these people out because they have not been working below ground, and they would have to serve ?two years' apprenticeship ?—Yes. 14543. Therefore you would say it would be a good •thing to enforce that?—Yes. 14544. That would protect the English labour market -so far?—I quite believe that, so long as the Mines Regulation Act remains as it is, the clause relating to a man serving two years under a practical miner is of no use. 14545. It is evaded now, you say?—Yes. 14546. What is the amendment you would like to -see ?—I would like to see a credential or .some form from the employer stating that the man has served two jeans, as specified by the Mines Regulation Act. 14547. According to the law he should have had that -experience of two years?—'Yes. 14548. But you say that that is systematically evaded and there are no means of proving whether a man has had experience or not?—Yesi. 14549. (Mr. Norman.) Your amendment would be that no man's mere statement should be accepted with- out proof ?—Yes. 14550. He should be required to furnish proof of it r —Yes, he should have a credential. 14551. (Mr. Vallance.) You say that the employment of aliens in the mines is a source of danger?—Yes. 14552. You also say that there is without these aliens sufficient amount of native labour ?—That is so; that is my belief. 14553. And that consequently the incursion of these •aliens into the district is productive of harm rather than good?—Yes. 14554. Are these aliens, Poles?—Mostly Poles. 14555. Are they Jewish Poles, or Roman Catholic Poles?—>1 think they are Roman Catholic Poles. 14556. You can only assign as a reason for their being engaged in preference to natives the desire on the part of the management to weaken the trades union; is that so?—That is so; that is my belief. 14557. Has it ever been suggested that there is an- other' reason, that these men are more reliable in their work ?—'No, I never heard of that. 14558. And that they work harder?—No, I never "lieard of,anything like that, and I am certainly sure that they cannot take the place of the British miner; there is no reason to think that that will ever be at- tained, because I can honestly vouch they will nev^r take the place of the British miner. 14559. And you say that the employment of these aliens is not necessary by reason of any want of labour here ?=—No, it is not necessary as far as I can see. 14560. (Lord Rothschild.) Are these alien miners able-- bodied and strong, or are they weak ?—That is a ques- tion that- I could not exactly answer. All I can say is, they look quite able men; but as far as being strong I could not answer that. Some of them, of course, are good-looking, the same as our British miners ; some of them are small, and weak-looking ; also, sometimes they cheat their appearance; some of them are robust and strong-looking. 14561. Have you noticed that they suffer from any particular disease or complaint?—No. 14562. Were they liable to smallpox when there was all outbreak?—No, not to my knowledge. 14563. (Mr. Lyttelton.) As far as you can judge, a provision which would prohibit the entrance of men physically sick or suffering from some contagious disease or anything of that kind would not keep them out?— No. . 1^564. They are men who not merely appear able to do hard work, but do do hard work below ground?— Yes, 14565. Would you say that their capacity for hard ^r. R. work is not equal to the Scotchman, but it is a con- Lumsclen. sideraible capacity ?—I do not follow you. __— 14566. I. understand you to say. in answer to Mr. 5 Mar. 1903. Vallance, that you did not think they could cut out ' ~ the British miner?—Yes. 14567. Is it your view that they are inferior to the British miner in strength?—Not in strength, but in practical mining I believe they are inferior. It isi like this: The longer they are in the mine the more skill they will get, and the skill of the miner1 helps him on a great deal. 14568. For a remedy against their entrance into your district you would have to prohibit every alien from coming, would you not, ias a remedy ; could you suggest anything short of that; iuo regulation would do, would it?—'I do not know of any regulation. 14569. Wjhat you want is the alien kept out of your employment altogether?—Yes, that is so. 14570- And nothing short of that would answer your purpose?—That is so. 14571. One question about the danger. Has the danger that you have spoken to in the employment of these mien ever been realised ; that is to say, have acci- dents occurred in your experience owing to their want of skill or ignorance ?—Not exactly ; but on 22nd Augus t last year there were three Poles together in one place, and an explJosion of gas took place there ; the three Poles ran straight home ; they never reported it to anyone, and the first report that was got of that ex- plosion happening was the doctor the next morning telling the manager. These Poles did not even want to send for the doctor until an Irishman who lived next door to them said that he would go for the doctor, be-. cause the men were severely burnt. 14572. Were they all three badly hurt?—Two of them were not so bad, but the other one was so badly burnt that he was off work 18 weeks. 14573. They made no report to the overman?—No, they never reported anything, so it is quite possible there might have been something smouldering there, or something on fire, thus placing the rest of the men in imminent danger. 14574. The miners' is a highly organised branch of Labour, is it not?—Yes, in some districts. 14575. It is highly organised with you?—'Yes ; but in the district where the majority of the Poles are work- ing it is not organised there. 14576. There is a certain part of your district which you have been speaking of which is weak?—Yes. 14577. And into that part of the district the Polo* have obtained an entrance ?—Yes. 14578. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Your district is Lanark- shire?—Yes. 14579. First of all, with regard to the number you say there are in your mine; there were about 430 working below ground, of whom seven were aliens?— Yes. 14580. Altogether, the numbers given in 1901 were 948 in the whole district ?■—In Lanarkshire do you mean ? 14581. Yes?—This is the Motherwell district. 14582. I am referring to a report by Mr. Ronaldson, the Mines Inspector for that district ?—It was his dis- trict then, but it is changed now. 14583. It refers to Lanarkshire as it is now divided : according to his report, there were 948 ; that would be, I suppose, about the figure ?—I could not say for 1901; it is very hard to get at it, because they nearly all assume Scotch names, Smith, Wilson, Thompson, and names like those. 14584. There are other ways of judging, besides the names. Would that be about right?—I could not say for certain about the number ; that is one thing I could not say. Had I had more intimation of coming here as a witness I could have got the numbers, but I have had very, 'short notice. 14585. They are chiefly Poles, are they?—Yes. 14586. Now, to follow up the question Mr. Lyttelton asked you with regard to the point of safety, that ques- tion is one with regard to which it is very often alleged that these people-axe prejudicial to safety ; but, with the exception of that one case that you gave just now? can you mention any case in which any accident is traceable to any ignorance or breach of rules on them BOYAL COlfl0giWSI..ipM,nAl®ejriSaOII6BATION : fa tfe© L>ol§s or iQn;t^e part of the aliens ?-^Yes ; ien. was; a. case ait. Glen Clelland Colliery, where a —" Pole got his head cut off. J?Q3» 14587. When Was that?—Roughly speaking, about two years ago. 14588. What were the circumstances ?•—He was de- scending, the shaft the first morning, and he had his t bead out of . the cage, and his head was cut off between ,thecage andthe'shaft; he was a: Pole. : > 14589. It was his own carelessness in having his head •over the side?—I expect it would be through ignorance, 14590. Can you mention any case in which the safety • of the other workers has been actually prejudiced by ignorance or carelessness on the part of these Poles? I have no doubt there are cases, but I want to know from you what they are?—Take the case circum- stantially. If a man is ignorant of the danger to both himself and others, that must be prejudicial. 14591. That is argument. I want to know the facts. We have always been anxious at the Home Office to get what these facts are?1—As far as I am concerned, I could not trace any other „case than the two I have mentioned and one that happened recently in the Lan- arkshire Steel Works, where the man ran in front of an engine. 14592. These shaft accidents are very common, are they not ?—Yes. 14593. (Chairman.) Natives (suffer from them equally ? --That is so. 14594. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You are in agreement that a great many aliens can now speak the English language, and therefore there is not so much difficulty in that respect ?—No, there is not the same danger as there was before. There is this further danger, the expulsion of the British workman ; and then, what are they to do? They will require to go to Poland, I ex- pect. 14595. (Chairman-) And not know the Polish lan- guage?—No ; they will go in ignorance to Poland. 14596. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) In some mines the Regu- lation Act and the Rules are translated, are they notl —Not to my knowledge. 14597. You do not know of any case?—-No. 14598. How do you say the character of the alien compares with that of the Britisher for sobriety ?—I do not know any of the aliens who are very sober. Speak- ing generally, they are given to very drunken habits. 14599. The aliens are ?—Yes ;, in fact, you will see them doing what the Britisher will not do ; you will see them carrying beer from the beershop in pails into their houses, and as far as I know, there is a great deal of that. 14600. At all events, ^ you do not give them a good character for sobriety?—No, I do not, and I could not conscientiously. 14601. How about their being amenable to discipline and attentive to rules?—They are very attentive to rules. Of course, that is where I work, because they are in a very big minority there; I do not know how that would be if they were in a majority. 14602. You do not speak so much of other places, but you are speaking of what you yourself have seen? :—Yes. 14603. From your own experience, whast do you say about their attending to orders?—They are very obe- dient where . I am ; there are only seven of them. 14604. What do you say about the seven; do they obey the rules or not ?—Yes, they are very obedient. 14605. I should like to know, so that I can make in- quiry about it, what you say about-these boys in mines. In the first place, what age® are these boys ?' They are all ages ; they are introduced at all agesi; not only the boys, but the men are introduced in the same fashion as the boys. 14606.' They come in as young men, and stay there? —Yes. 14607 Your complaint is that they are employed in the mines without having gone through proper experi- ence *That is so, at first, but it is quite possible that they can do it now. For instance, if a Pole takes a young man into the mines (we have Poles who have ■been a number of years in the mines) and keeps him, working with him foitwo years, he is obeying the Mines Regulation Act, but ftiey have come into the mines- through some process or, other without serving the time. 14608. As to the competition in wage*, we know the wages are paid by weight ?—Yes. 14609. Can you give me any case in which you have known aliens take a less rate per ton than British workmen?-—It was reported in the last Eddlewood dis- pute that they were employing these foreigners to work while the British workmen were on strike. 14610. That was in the 1894 strike?—No, that was* last year; it was reported that they were getting Poles, to fill the place of British workmen there. 14611. What information was that report based upon?—-There was some dispute in connection with these miners; they wanted something more per ton, or they were being*reduced—I could not just exactly tell you which way it was. These Poles were put into the British miners' place, but I think the dispute came all right, and they were taken back out of the sections and put into their own sections, and the British workmen got the conditions they wanted. 14612. What I want to know is whether you can tell me any instance or any number of instances in which you have known, as a matter of fact, that when a. British workman was receiving so much a ton, an alien was receiving so much less per ton ?—No, that I cannot say. 14613. (Mr. Norman.) Another question about this- change of name. I understand you to say that very many aliens take an English or a Scotch name?—Yes,, that is so. 14614. That would, of course, render the figures o£ the ordinary Census quite unreliable, would it not?— Yes. 14615. A man calling himself Wilson would be put down as a Britisher, probably ?—Yes, certainly. Of course, in the Registration Courts it would be equally the same. 14616. In reply to Mr. Lyttelton, you made an answer, which I am not quite sure you understood. You said that nothing short of total exclusion would satisfy you and your Union; of course, you did not mean to say that a measure of restriction would not also- be acceptable to you?—As far as I can see, the two- years is the only thing that can keep them from com- peting with the British workman. 14617. But we are discussing the possibility of some law being passed which would keep out these people. You said, in answer to Mr. Lyttelton, that nothing- short of keeping them all out Would satisfy you; but some measure which would restrict their entry would also be welcomed by you ?—Oh, yes ; I should not like to be extreme on any point. (Mr. Lyttelton.) He said the health restriction would 31 ot be sufficient. 14618. (Mr. Norman.) Then, afterwards, you said nothing short of total exclusion would satisfy you, but you did not mean to rule out some measure of restric- tion ?—No. 14619. (Chairman.) What sort of restriction would you accept?—I have not got my mind made up as to that. » 14620. You have not made up your mind ?—No. 14^21. (Mr. Norman.) Would you leave that to the Commissioners ?—I expect that is part of their duty, and not mine. 14622. (Chairman.) Where did you get your figure of 500 or 600 aliens in your district from?—I am only suggesting that. 14623. You know your own figure is seven. Have you any figures at all on which you base your 500 or 600 ?_ No; I am only suggesting that, or thinking of that. I have told you before that I had not got the numbers that were in my district because I had not got sufficient time. 14624. It may be you have got them accurately, but is that a mere guess ?—It is just a guess. 14625. Have you no ingredient on which you found your guess P—No; it is jusit a guess, according to the numbers that you see on a Saturday night floating; about the streets. 14626. By seeing them, walking about the streets, youMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 511 .guess tli© number in the whole district as being 500 or $QP?—Yes. 14627. Do you know the number of miners in the Motherwell district of all classes ?—I could not give you &bat. ; 14628. Gould you get those?—Yes. 14629. T'he seven to the 450 is carried out of your 600 by the indefinite number we have not got who are io the Motherwell district t—Yes. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The inspector reports that a year ^ago—he is writing in May of last year—the whole number in that part of the country was 948. {Major Evans-Gordon.) How does that compare with Hke witness's district of Motherwell ; is that- about the «aime area? ... (Sir Kemlm Digby.) Yes, it is; but do not think it is ■definite enough to go upon. 14630. (Major IE vans-Gordon.) They have not de- creased since then?—No. ' 14631. (Chairman.) Is that 948 the whole of the miners in the Motherwell district ? (Sir Kenelm Digby.) No; they are aliens?—That is Lanarkshire. , (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is the mining district. 14632. (Ghairman.). You spoke of the Motherwell dis- trict as containing 503 to 600 ?—Yes ; I think that now. 14633. What proportion does the Motherwell district bear to the whole of Lanarkshire ?—I do not know that I can answer that. 14634. When these miners come in—I am not speak- ing of'the boys who are brought .over, but the adults— have they, as far as you ca;n judge, had any knowledge of mining before; have they been working as miners abroad ?—No, I do not think so. 14655. Ar© they what we call greeners, or unskilled persons ?—$o far as I can learn, they are agricultural labourers before coming to Scotland or England. 14636. And are totally ignorant of mining ?—And are totallv ignorant of mining. 14637. Does not a miner require some skill to be able to work in a mine?—Yes. 14638. How do these men pass muster ?—I could not say how they have been produced. Any that I have come across have been a certain time in the country before they came to the district where I am. I never heard how they were introduced into the mines and got skilful. 14639. But as you see them working in a mine for the first time, are they perfectly ignorant of the mining work, or have they knowledge of it?—Any that I have seen have a knowledge of it, coming from another district. 14640. You have not seen them working in the other district, and you do not know ?—No. 14641. Supposing a perfectly ignorant person, an agri- cultural labourer, were brought down a mine to work, you men would know at once he was an unskilled and unfit person to work, would you not?—Yes, quite so. 14642. I suppose, if I may use the term, you would have him out pretty soon, in some way or other ?— That depends on the state of organisation and the state of trade. Adjourned for a short time. Mr. it: Lumsden, 5 Mar! 1SK)3» Mr. Edmund Haegreave Thompson, called ; and Examined. 14643. (Major t Evans-Gordon.) You represent the Alliance of Cabinet Makers' Association in Leeds ?— Tes. 14644. There are 39 English workshops in Leeds, are there not?—Yes. 14645. And seven Jewish workshops ?—Yes. 14646. Are they all in tlhe Alliance?—No. 14647. What is made in these factories ?—In the fac- tories it is principally cheap furniture. 14648. And ; the English have to serve an appren- ticeship to learn the whole trade ?—Yes. 14649; Are they necessarily bound apprentices ?—Not necessarily so, , • 14650. Who are the people who are coming; into the trade now ?—Into the cheap class of trade principally the aliens. , 14651. What we have heard of—greeners ?—-Yes. The greener, of course, is a person who does not know anything of the; trade till he comes to the country. 14652. And then he comes in and learns ?—Not exactly learns, but he starts at it. 14653. Do these "aliens make inferior furniture?-— Yes. ..... 14654. They>inake the inferior kind bf goods ?—-Yes. 14655. What are' the conditions under which they work; is it what you call sweated labour?—When the greener comes he comes to the shop, and he has neither tools nor ability nor experience ; he is< put to a bench and is told to make a part of any article of furniture that may be required at the time. 14656. What sort of wages does he get for that?— Anything from 3Jd. to 7d. an hour. 14657. Does he work long hours ?—Yes,- he usually works as long as ever the employer will let him; in some cases 10 or 11 hours a day. 14658. These men are not employed in Alliance shops, are they ?—-Oh, yes, in some cases we keep hold of these shops, and we try to ameliorate the condition of all in them. 14659. Do you get the greener into the shop?—No, we do not agree with the greener getting there at all, but if we have greeners working there we try to keep them there, so that we can have some excuse in trying to bett er the shop . 14660. If you have one of your associated men working Mr. E. H• in the shop where aliens are employed?—Yes. Thompson. 14661. You object to these people being employed? —Yes. 14662. How have they affected you?—Formerly the class of furniture in making which this greener is mostly employed, used to be done by the ordinary apprentice- serving workman. Since the greener has come and done this class of work by sub-division of labour, he has crowded that man out of the trade altogether. 14663. He has crowded out the English apprenticeship man ?—Yes. 14664. Both Jew and Gentile?—Yes. 14665. Is this complained of by the Jewish workers in this trade as well as by the English workers ?—To some extent, I believe it is. We have had to the number of 60 or 70. Jews in the same society to- which I belong. 14666. Your society is composed of Jews and G-entiles? —Yes ; only we never could keep them. If we can keep them as regular members for about six months we think .1 we are doing very well. 14667. Why do they leave ?—I could not tell you the reason why they leave, only I know this much, that great pressure is brought to bear on the foreigners in Leeds by the foreign employer in this way: he will have a greener come to his place, and probably get partly pro- ficient in making a certain class of furniture, and he will tell the man, perhaps to-night, that he has no further use for him, simply because he knows that the next dar the man will go back and ask for Ms joib back, and then he can offer him a lower price. That has repeatedly been done in Leeds. 14668. I do not quite understand that. He sends the man away if he asks for a higher price ?!—No<, He will stop, him without giving him any cause at all. 14669. And get another man in his place?—No, he will stop him for this reason, that he knows he will go the next day and ask for his job back, and he will be enabled to offer him a less price, and in nine cases out of ten comes off. - 14670. He gets the same man back at a lower price? —Yes. 14671. Owing to the desire for employment ?—Yes. 14672. Is this cabinet trade carried on in home work? —Yes.512 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr - E. H. 5 Mar. 1903. 14673. There the conditions are worse, I suppose P— We have cases where a man who has worked his ordinary day's work, say nine or ten hours, gets work and does it at home, after he has done his day's work. 14674. He works at home as weil as in the shop P—Yes. 14675. What is the strength of your union ?—It com- prises about 250 members. 14676. How many of them are Jews?—At the out- side 10. 14677. Only 10 now ?—Yes. 14678. But they join and then leave ?—Yes. We have had as many as 60. 14679. (Chairman.) Are Jews aliens in your view— English Jews and aliens?—>1 class them altogether, as far as our trade is concerned. 14680. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) Whether they are foreign or English Jews ?—Yes. The reason why I do that is, there are not above four in the whole of Leeds that work in the same way as Englishmen. We have the class of wholesale cheap furniture shops, and we have a class a little higher up, that supply the gentry, and that kind of thing, and then we have shops making shop and bar and office fittings. In the two upper branches we hardly have any Jews at all; they are all in the cheaper lines. 14681. What you complain of is the greener coming in and depressing prices and wages?—Yes, and not having the ability to take his place at the bench. 14682. You also complain that he cuts out the English apprentice ?—Yes. 14683. With regard to these aliens, of course you know them, and can distinguish them from the English Jew by their language, I suppose ?—Oh, yes. 14684. Have you any idea how many there are of them working in your trade in Leeds?—Aliens? 14685. Real foreigners—not the British Jew?—It would be an approximate figure, but I could tell you about. 14686. In your trade?—It would be 50 per cent, of theim, anyway. 14687. Fifty per cent, of whom ?—Of the men working in my trade are aliens. 14688. Of the whole of the people working in your trade, half of them are foreigners?—Yes, but I must distinguish between the wholesale shops and the class above. 14689. If you please,, do so?—The whole of them in the wholesale trade are aliens. 14690. How long has that state of things existed ?— In my own experience, eight years. 14691. And before that do you think it existed, or not?—I could not say. I was not in the city at- that time. 14692. You know positively that all the men in the- wholesale trade of cabinet-making in Leeds have beei* aliens for eight years?—Yes, in the wholesale part of the cabinet trade. 14693. And no Englishman at all employed?—Yesr there are a few. 14694. But nothing to speak of?—No, nothing to* speak of. 14695. Why is it that the aliens have for eight years entirely absorbed the trade ?—For one reason, that they have been sent for. 14696. By the English employer or foreign employer P —By the foreign employer principally. 14697. Are these men when they come skilled men or not?—No, they are unskilled; they have not seen a tool before they come. 14698. All of them?—Yes, all of them. 14699. According to you, no skilled people are em- ployed in the first instance; do they all grow up and learn the trade ?—No, in these factories there is a great deal of machinery, and any piece of furniture is sub- divided into sections. It is comparatively easy for a. man to come in and make one part of the job that he is making year in and year out, and to get proficient in possibly eight or nine months. In some cases these- greeners are taken to the masters, and the masters are- told that they must find them work, whether they will', or no—they must find them work. 14700. Who takes them ?—The Jewish Rabbi. 14701. Who finds the work?—The master whom the Rabbi sends the greener to. In that case he is obliged^ to do it, and he puts them on. 14702. Are the English public supplied by these* goods in the wholesale cabinet-making which are pro- duced entirely by greeners?—Yes, it is practically in their hands now. I would say that some of these greeners,, after a year or two, get to be cabinet makers; I must admit that. 14703. What is the attraction to the employer ? Does- he get this labour cheaper, do you think ?—Un- doubtedly cheaper. He would have to pay the standard rate of wages of the town if he did not get these people- 14704. Is the work properly made or badly made?— Badly made—in fact, it is not worth having. It cheap and nasty. 14705. Can the men who turn out this bad work keep up the prices ?—I do not think there is much differ- ence in the price now than what it was eight years ago. 14706. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is very very cheap stuff, is it not?—Yes. Mr. Joe Mttbfin-, called; and Examined. Mr, J. 14707. (Mr. Vallance.) Are you Secretary of the Murfin. Sheffield Branch of the Amalgamated Society of - Tailors ?—Yes. 14708. How many members are there in that society ? —The membership fluctuates. Of course, tailoring is a season trade, and in slack seasons we generally reach about 170 or 180; in the busy season we go over 200 or 250. 14709. In Sheffield the work is done generally at home, is it not?—No. 14710. You have no factories ?—We have no factories; that is, we have no factories for the making of ready- made clothing—the cheap clothing. 14711. But the bespoke business is generally carried on at home?—No. The tailoring trade of Sheffield is done in the bespoke business, and the factory trade comes from Leeds. 14712. Then, generally speaking, may we say the v < bespoke business is done in factories ?—The ready-made trade is done in factories, but the tailoring made in . Sheffield is bespoke tailoring. 14713. Where would this bespoke tailoring be done? —On the employers' premises generally. 14714. Are those premises not factories?—I suppose they will come under the Factory and Workshop Act, but not in the ordinary sense, as we understand cloth- factories. 14715. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is there any machinery —In some there is machinery, and I will explain that, presently. 14716. (Mr. Vallance.) The ready-made clothes are-, chiefly from Leeds?—Yes. 14717. In these places in Sheffield where these ready- made clothes are sold is Jewish labour employed there $ —In several places they will employ Jewish labour to. alter, and that kind of thing. That is, if they sell a. ready-made garment that does not fit the customer, we have several instances of firms who employ Jewish labour to alter and make the garments fit. 14718. Is that work done chiefly or entirely by aliens t —Generally so. 14719. How long has that system existed ?—-Longer than I can remember. 14720. In the bespoke trade there are different classes of goods?—Yes. 14721. How many classes have you got?—We hav& three classes. 14722. What would the first class be ?—The first class in Sheffield is the class of trade which is made for the gentry of Sheffield, and, generally speaking, that is all hand labour, and is made by English practical tailors, and we have none of this alien opposition in any case. 14723. Now the second claas ?—The second class is aMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 513 -class that is between the middle and the cheap bespoke, and it is made by English tailors, with the assistance of machinery; that is, the use of machinery enables the English tailors to make this class of trade at a reduced price from the better class. 14724. What proportion of male and what proportion of female labour would there be in that second class trade ?—(There would be no female labour except the machinist; that is to say, supposing an employer would employ 20 English tailors, he would probably only employ one or two females, who would machine. 14725. What is taking place in that second class trade; is there an encroachment going on?—Yes, there is an encroachment with regard to these aliens in the second class trade; and that is our objection to those people in Sheffield.. We speak of Sheffield as we find it, and we find that alien labour is taking the place of British labour in the second class tailoring trade of Sheffield. 14726. At lower rates ?—At lower rates. There is a difference, of course, in the Jewish and alien and the English method of tailoring. An English tailor is a man who serves his apprenticeship at tailoring, and who is able to make a garment from start to finish, to completely make it and complete it. In. the Jewish system, which we often call the division of labour, a garment is mad© in five different processes or sub- divisions. You have a marker and fitter up, who is, generally speaking, a practical man. You have a machiner; you have a presser; and you have a finisher, who, in all cases, are British females—'that is, the finisher does the hand-sewing part of the work, and is, almost in all cases, a British female. Then you have the baster, who bastes the coat together (we will take a coat for instance) for the machiner to machine. 14727. Are these aliens able to do this work at lower rates by reason of the sub-division of labour?—That is so. 14728. Is the subdivision of labour an advantage or otherwise ?—It is a disadvantage. 14729. Is the sub-division of labour an advantage or otherwise in. the multiplied production of the article ? —Yes, I think so. 14730. (Chairman.) Which do you say it is, an advan- tage or a disadvantage?—A disadvantage, because a tailor making a coat under the English conditions, with the assistance of a machine, is still a practical man, and understands all the technicalities of tailoring. A person making a coat under the sub-division of labour, or the Jewish system, is, generally speaking, a person who only understands his own division. 14731. (Lord Bothschild.) He understands that tho- roughlv, does not he?—He isi not a practical man; he is not a practical tailor. 14732. Not practical all round ? — Not practical all round. 14733. (Mr. VaUcmce.) That is comparing man with man ?—Yes, that is it. 14734. These five alien workmen can produce an article at a lower rate than the English tailor can from start to finish?—Yes. 14735. He is able to do that by reason of the sub- division of labour ?—He is able to do that by reason of the sub-division of labour, and also by the fact that it foatea* a great amount of female labour to do all the hand working, and of course is a moans of the cost of production being less than if it was done bv a practical tailor with the assistance of a machine. The sub- division of labour is a cheaper process than practical labour with the assistance of machinery. 14736. Is the sub-division of labour a system which deserves imitation?—We think it is a system which deserves doing away with. 14737. Why ?—Because it is to the disadvantage of the English tailor. As we heard this morning, it is a system peculiar to the Jews and aliens*. 14738. Assuming your English workmen to be so organised that work was sub-divided in the same way as in the case of the aliens, would that be an advantage to the country generally as 'to production ?—I do not think so. I think that practical labour, with the assist- ance of all the machinery possible, would meet the case. 14739. But, at all events, the introduction oi the alien 6144. into the second class tailoring trade in Sheffield is. dis- Mr. J. placing the English workman ?—That is so. 1 Marfin. 14740. How is that to be met, in your judgment?— - \j.TTg03 Of course, I have some suggestions to make, which I 1 ar' will either make now or later. 14741. We will leave that to the last. Then with regard to the third class ?—The third class trade is the cheapest bespoke trade in Sheffield, and that trade is made entirely at the present time by sub-division of labour. Formerly practical tailors were employed in this class of work in Sheffield, but their place is being entirely taken by foreign labour on account of this sub- division. It has been particularly so with regard to contract work for the City Corporation of Sheffield. I can go back for 15 years or more as a member of the Amalgamated Society of Tailors, Sheffield Branch, and during the whole of that time the Corporation work of Sheffield has been made' by English tailors exclusively with the assistance of machinery. During the last two years firms who employ aliens and foreigners, under this sub-division of labour, have been given the great bulk o:r these contracts. The result, is the cost of production isi cheaper, and they can give their customers, the Cor- poration, a better class of material and a better class of lining, and so beat them in the market. 14742. (Chairman.) So beat whom ?—Beat those firms who employ British labour. On account of the cheaper cost of production under the Jewish or alien system they can give the Corporation a better cloth. 14743. And a better article?—A better material—a better-looking article in itself for a short time, but not so well made. 14744. Do they take the Corporation in and deceive them—the Aldermen, the Mayor, and the rest of them? —We think so, my Lord. Unfortunately, in Sheffield we have not a practical tailor on the Corporation, or else we think the thing would be different. 14745. (Mr. Valla/rice.) But if the sub-division of labour enables them to produce an article at less cost and an equally good article, is not that an advantage to the customer and to the country generally?—We do not think so. We think th© fostering of sub-division of labour would be a disadvantage to the wearer, inasmuch as it is mot so well made and not made by practical hands, although certainly by skilled hands to a certain extent; we do not disguise the fact that although a man enters the tailoring trade, or some portion of the tailoring trade, green (which we know he often does), in time he must become familiar with that particular por- tion, and, of course, he becomes to a certain extent skilled, but he has not the same practical knowledge of tailoring as a practical tailor has, or as a man who has learned his trade from start to finish and served his apprenticeship to the trade. 14746. Is it not a fact that this country has suffered from the sub-division of labour in other countries ? Take, for instance, the watch trade in Switzerland and America—has not that seriously affected manufacturing. in England ?—I could not say. 14747. You say the sub-division of labour ie a die- advantage to the workers and to the community ?—To the British workers. 14748. (Chairman.) Does the Sheffield Corporation contract by tender ?—Yes. 14749. Do they look at the tenders all round ?—1 presume so. 14750. Have you a vote as a municipal voter in Shef- field ?—Oh, yes, and use it generally. 14751. (Mr. Vallance.) You have a note in your state- ment about an employer who takes out work by con- tract ?—There is another thing with regard to the sub- division of labour in the Jewish system, and that is this: The system encourages sweating to a very large extent; a man, who calls himself a master man, goes to some of these firms and takes out work and sub-lets it at a very considerably less rate than he himself receives, and he does not work himself at all. Even in those firms where this sub-division of labour article is made entirely on the premises we have aliens who receive from their employers first hand, sub-letting their work to others under them, and paying them practically what they like for the work they do. 14752. Then with regard to trouser-makers, what have you to say ?—The came thing would apply to trouser- 3 TROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN1 IMMIGRATION : Mr. makers. Trousers are mad© in four or five divisions, Mkvrjin. audi so are produced at considerably less. With regard •• to pn© of these contracts, I went to the trouble, of Mar. 1903. reckoning the difference in price that our men received —--for making the same articles and the difference in price that the foreign labourers, the person# who produced them, received under the foreign system. The price for a coat under the practical system was 10s. 3d., and the price for a deterioration of the trade. If a manufacturer were to adopt the same system with regard to his factory, the result would simply be that he would produce an article less skilled' and very much inferior to the man who employed all practical labour. ' 14756. But one man does not make a pin, does he ?— No, I do not suppose he does! 14757. (Chairman.) But in Leicester and Northamp- ton boots and shoes 1 are made on the sub-division of labour system. It has been a very slow process to arrive at it, but it is done now, is it not ^1 do not knotf. 14758. (Mr. Vallance.) To what extent is English labour being displaced by this alien invasion ?--lt is being displaced to a very large extent. Taking m a criterion this contract wcrk alone, during the time it was made by British labour it employed some 20 to 40 hands almost all the year round in Sheffield ; and the result of its being made by foreign alien labour, and, of course^ Jewish, has been that last winter it threw out of employment something like 30 men. I had on my books something like 30 men totally out of employment), some of whom were walking about for weeks, and some of whom had to leave the town, with their wives and families. ' . 14759. What is the position of your trade as regards apprenticeship; is apprenticeship in vogue now, or have they disconjtiniued it?—-That is a very important matter with regard to apprenticeship. I do not think I could count above four practical tailors in Sheffield Who have their sons at the tailoring trade; and, in conversation with many of the delegates who attended our .Conference at Swansea two years ago, I mentioned the . point of apprentices in the tailoring trade, and I found it was practically a general thing that practical tailors are to-day absolutely refusing to put their sons to the tailoring trade, on account of the bad prospects before them through the encroachment of the foreigners. 14760. Do the tailors' trades unions encourage or dis- courage. apprenticeship?—We encourage it; and we ishould do just the same as we encourage Jews or aliens who are practical men. We have Jews who axe members of our association, and we have Jewish branches, and we foster them as much as ever we possibly can, presuming that they work under the same conditions as ourselves, and, of course, abide by our rules, the. same as our English workers would do. 3,4761. Have you anything more to say with reference to the Corporation a/nd their contracts ?L—No, I do not thank so. 14762. What suggestions have you to offer ?■—The sug- gestions I have to offer are simply these: I want to make it plain that as Englishmen wef have no objection to a Jew because 'he is a Jew. The suggestion that T make is, that every alien who comes over to this country should be put to a 'thorough practical! test. I think, if I understand rightly, that the great maj ority of foreigners who come over here come into two or three pqirt^ ; land Ido not think it would be difficult for experts to be employed seeing that generally speaking the foreigners get into about three trades, tailoring, cabinet making,, and boot, and shoe making ; ami I think they could be put td a practical test. If a man says he is a tailor, and he proves himself to be a tailor, I say, let him* stop* But if he oannot prove 'himself to be a tailor, I should simply send (him back; ; • 14763. Supposing he says he is an agricultural labourer?—— " v/ " ;; " : 14764. (Chairman.) Or suppose he says he is nothing^ —If he ,says' he is nothing, I should send him back. 14765."(Mr.. Vallance.) That is your suggestion?-— Yes. 14766. (Chairman.) You would exclude all unskilled labour ; that is what you wish to do ?—Yes, alien labour. 14767. To exclude, includes the word "alien," be- cause you would not exclude him if he was here ?:—No. 14768. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What I understand you to object to is this sub-division of labour?—Yes—the alien system oi labour which is injuring the trade. 14769. You object to the sub-division, and. you object to the aliens because they have introduced the sub- division, or fostered it?—Quite so. 14770. (Lord Rothschild.) Supposing an alien passed the test of bootmaking before coming here, and found the boot trade slack, what is to prevent his becoming a tailor here? If you object to the greener, I want to know how one test would apply?—If a man was a boot- maker, and he came here and started to be a tailor, he could hardly be a practical man, and he would hardly be able to compete with the English worker. 14771. (CJmirnpam,.) J3l$;,i$ a greener, and your objec- tion, is to the greeiier ?—-Yes. 14772. (Lord Rothschild.) You said something about hand-sewn clothes. The hand sewing refers to the clothes before they are made up ?^—Oh, no. 14773. Do you mean to say there are many coats and things sewn by hand now?—Absolutely by hand in the better class shops. . 14774. (Chairman.) You would not object to the ad- mission of skilled labour?—Oh, no. 14775. Supposing a skilled labourer came in, why would not there be sub-division; of work when you have got skilled men, as well as when you have got unskilled labour ?—If you had sub-division of work by skilled labour, I should think that would be equal to the other. 14776., You do not object to sub-division if you get skilled labour taking part in the sub-division ?—We do, as a society, object to sub-division of labour. What we s^iy is that under the English system of tailoring, with the assistance of machines, and' all the assistance that could be given^ these garments could be produced cheaply. ' 14777. If the test that you sfay should be employed at a port took place, and a man came in, what is to prevent him taking part in the sub-division of labour, which is, as you have told Sir Kenelm Digby, the reason of your objection ?■—There would be nothing to prevent him taking part in the sub-division rafter he had got here, presuming he had proved himself to be practical, but I think it is very doubtful whether he would take part in the sub-division. 14778. Are you aware that in some tr^es, certainly in the shoe trade, the sub-division of labour goes on with skilled men ?—I do not understand the shoe trade. I, simply speak for my own. 14779. A man comes in under your test, an,d he is a skilled labourer. I put it to you that he can take part in sub-division, but if he cannot, what is to prevent him going into another trade as a greener, and then taking part in sub-division?—Of course^ I should not have him as a greener. There is the difficulty. - 14780. But he does do it now, and you are wanting to give a test as a means of protection against Ms coming in as a greener. He comes in, and passes that test so as to come into the country, and he goes as a greener into another trade ?—Of course that would be a difficult thing to deal with. 14781. I want to know how we are to deal with this, and I only want practical suggestions from you ?—If man comes in as a cutter, anid' passes a practical test, and then goes into some other trade, I really do not know how you would deal with that man. 14782. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Would you expel him, if he went into another trade?—I do not know how you would deal with him. It would be a case very few and far between, I think. 14783. (Chairman.) You see there are some difficulties in all these questions?—«It is a very difficult question. The whole question is difficult.MI&UTES (XE\• EVrD'ENG!E.' m Mr. Fhancis Hugh Birch, called ; and Examined. ' 1^784. (Mr. VaUance.) Are you one of the relieving officers of the Holborn Union ?—Yes. 14.785. What is your district ?—The whole of the Holborn Parish now—what we call Holborn proper. 14786. Including the Italian colony of Saffron Hill ? Wit is not Saffron Hill, although it is called Saffron Hill. : 14787. What is the length of your acquaintance with this district ?—I may say in 18481 patrolled th^t" district a& a special constable, so that I have known it for many yfears. I have been there 35 years in my present ' capacity. 14788. Going back to the early days of yon^ present office, what class of people were living in the Saffron Hill district ?—They were principally workers in the tailoring and the shoemakirig trades, labourers, and cGstermongers. ; • ! : 14789. W^re they generally a law abiding, quiet people ?—Oh, yes. ' i4790. Now what, class have you got there?—I think there is hardly an Irishman or an Englishman to be '^€j6[3Hii that: particular district which the Italians now occupy. They have all been ousted. /' 14791. By the aliens ?—By the aliens. ; , 14792. Are these aliens, as a rule, law abiding, re*- spectable people ?—The bulk of them certainly. 14793. With reference to the rents in that district. In the early days rents were comparatively low ?—Very low. They were 2s. to 2s. 6d. a decent room. Now they are 6s. 1,4794. To what do you attribute the increase ?—The alien labour coming to this country has ousted bur people, and they. pay these enormous rents. It is a fact, that on one occasion, I believe it was in the ;"^ronicle^^a man got a room from a padrone, and he vgot 12sv 6d. a week for it. Jle let it out iii five parts, one in the middle and four in the corners, that case was brought to me by Mr. Mancarini, the School Board officer' and he asked if I could get it into the news- papers. The man was summoned at the County: Court in "Buncan Terrace for rent, and it came out in evidence that he had five people in, the room. I have known . £our amongst our own poor in kitchens. 14795. Apart from the newspapers, did it cojne to the knowledge of the District Board of Works ?—No, I do 1 not think it did. At that time of day it was the Board of Works. 14796. In practice are you in communication with the Borough Council with regard to the insanitary places ? —Yes, l am under a penalty in the Act. 14797. That was so when the Board of Works was in existence ?—I do not think we were under a penalty if we did not inform them, but we used to inform them, and ,our medical officer, I am sorry to say, never took the trouble to do anything. It was the worst district in London under the old management. 14798. (Chairman.) The Metropolitan Board of Works?—Yes, under the Board of Works for that dis- trict. The Metropolitan Board of Works was then what the London County Council is now. 14799. (Mr. VaUance.) There is a general under- standing that you act in co-operation with the Borough Council ?—'Yes, but when I send cases, although I am under a penalty for not reporting, yet when they are reported to them they seldom ever do anything. 14800. What has been done within your knowledge with regard to this question of overcrowding?—Very little indeed. I put it to the medical officer the other - day about this very locality, and he said, " but supposing We were to do it, and were to make better house accommodation, you will have all the Italians occupy- ing those houses." I told him I failed1 to see that that was a reason why it should not be done for the accom- modation and health; of the public. 14801. We are dealing now with the question of rents. Would these excessive rents to which you have referred , have been possible if it had not been for the overcrowd- ing of these tenements ?—Quite impossible. v 14802. Therefore if the municipal authority had been able to absolutely prevent the overcrowding, especially the overcrowding by more than the members, of one 6144. Mr. F. H. Birch. family, this question would not arise ?—It could not arise I think. 14803. And the rents would have been probably 5 Mar. 1903. relatively moderate?—Yes. - 14804. Have you formed any computation as to the number of alien® you have in your district?-—I am churchwarden of the particular district, and have been for many years. The rector wrote some time ago to the Registrar-General, and he sent us word to say there were about 1,200, but I really think there must be a great deal more than that in this particular district. We had formerly a curate who was an Austrian, who used to visit these people, and we have now a Spaniard who speaks Italian, and is visiting these people. 14805. What trades do these Italians follow, as a rule ?—What we call the Italian men are a dirty lot to look at. They go out at present with chestnuts and baked potatoes, and in summer they sell ice creams at the corners of the street, and all about the place. They are terrible places where they live and where these things are made, and I am sure no one would ever eat ice cream in the street if they would only go down to the place and see them being made, and see the dread- ful dirt and filth and wet in those places. 14806. They work also at handicrafts, do they not ? 1"They make piano organs, and they have'also shoe- makers' shops ; there are bakers and provision dealers and hairdressers. I do not think we can say that the Italian tailor or shoemaker competes with the English- man, for he only makes for his own country meii. 14807. To what extent within your knowledge have they affected prejudicially English labour?—At iihe time of the strike at the Law Courts the Italians came over here in large numbers, to work, and some few of them remained in the Country afterwards. They are working now, of course, in the making or laying of asphalt and wood pavement in the street, and they have displaced the labour which was employed by our various contractors in the road making. 14808.. They have displaced the English labour, but not the English labourer in this particular department, because they have brought the industry with them?— Yes, in the case of the asphalt industry. 14809. Have you had any experience as to the effect of the cattle trade and cattlemen coming over ? Have you had any men chargeable?—Before the importation of cattle from Argentina was stopped there was a larger number of Italians, country labourers : and farm labourers, returning from there, and they were sup- posed to receive two sovereigns after coming over in these cattle boats. They generally landed at Liver- pool, and were frequently defrauded of the small pit- tance that was allowed them. They were then sent on to London by the Consul there to the Consul in London, whose agent had a house or place which a man called Manchini had charge of in our district. They used to be sent there, and we then had to admit them pending their being able to get papers and passports to get through Paris back again to Italy and Naples. 14810. Has any case come under your notice in which a man has been sent in charge of cattle from an American port upon payment of a nominal sum to him as wages, and then being cast adrift when he got to England ?—Yes, they have told us so often. I have had to get an interpreter, and that is what they have siaid" through the interpreter. 14811. Have you been led to form any opinion as to> the character of such men?—I think they were very worthy and trustworthy people. I had nine upon one^ occasion; some of them had large portmanteaux with* them, and they took them away and did not go in five received orders for admission, three of whom only- accepted, and the others got into this Eyre Street locality, and managed to tide over the time they weie here. That was the largest number on one day that I had. 14812. Although you have this foreign colony in your district,- do they compare favourably with the native worker of a corresponding class ?—I think so. 14813. Do they become chargeable to the rates in any large number P—More so in this last year 1902 than any year that I have been there, and that, a® I think,. through illness. 3 T 2516 ROYAL COMMISSION ON Mr. F. H. 14814. As a rule, they do not resort to the poor rates Birch. to the same extent as the natives?—Oh, dear no, _ - nothing like it. 5 ai 14815. You have had experience of these aliens assuming English names?—That is Jewish aliens. ■ 14816. What has been the motive, do you suppose? '■%—I do not know. They are all in the tailoring trade, ~ or they get their work from the various London shops, and have workers on their premises. I know them personally myself. 14817. Did you assist at all in the last Census ?—Not the last Census. I have not assisted in these two last Censuses; I assisted im two before. 14818. Have you had any reason to suppose that there is any misunderstanding with regard to the nationality of these people by reason of their assuming English names?—I think that is one reason why they assume them. They think they sound better. 14819. It is within your knowledge that in the Census Returns the country of birth has to be inserted?— That is so. I do not recollect quite, but I kept a book of the Census I took in 1871, and there I found plenty of people with names that did not belong to them, and also their nationality just the same. 14820. There is no necessity to go through the details of the aliens unless you wish to make any special obser- vations upon the various trades they touch upon. Has the alien any. special effect upon the conditions of the district, looking at the question from your standpoint? —At the present moment our neighbourhood is increas- ing weekly with the number of Jewish aliens who come to do this tailoring work to the displacement of our people, and by their coming they do pay such excessive rents that our people are obliged to leave. 14821. But still if it were not for the overcrowding those rents would not be paid ?—Possibly not. 14822. And the English occupiers possibly might be able to remain ?—Oh, yes. 14823. (iSir Kenelm Digby.) I gather that you say the overcrowding has been very bad in your district ?—Yes, very. ' 14824. And you think more might have been done by the local authorities ?—'Certainly. 14825. Do you see any practical difficulty in enforc- ing the law more stringently 9—-No, not at all. Some of the houses belong to gentlemen who get on to the Board. That is the only fault of it. 14826. (Chairman.) Is the Board; the municipal council?—The Borough Council. The committee that goes round to see these kitchens and overcrowded places are mostly the men who own places. In one divi- sion that is so at the present moment, and has always been so since I have been in the district. 14827. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you see much im- provement in the disposition to enforce the law against overcrowding—is there much improvement to what there used! to be?—Not in Holborn—none at all. In one house alone the police reported to me nine people living in one room. I told my informant to send word to the vestry. I was afterwards told nothing had been done. 14828. Have you any fault to find with the law ? Do ALIEN IMMIGRATION I you think the law might be strengthened in any way?— No, I think there are enough laws if they are carried out. 14829. (Lord 'Rothschild.) Did you read the eviden.ce of the previous witness from Holborn on the subject of aliens living there ? The previous witness said the Jews were Englishmen, and not aliens. Do you distinguish between an English Jew and a foreign Jew?—When I am speaking of these Jewish people I am speaking of those who are not English Jews. I know a large number of English Jews. I was a medical assistant, and we used to have a large number of Jewish people on our books. 14830. In the return which was given to the Com- mission it is put down that the Jews were all English- men in Holborn and not aliens?—I do not know who said that. 14831. Do you know of any Englishmen who have been deprived of their employment in Holborn by the Jewish aliens ?—I could not say directly. 14832. (Chairman.) Has there been any alteration, for good or for evil, in the administration of these laws since the borough council came into existence ?—Not in Holborn. I am speaking of my district in Holborn, and my Board of Guardians will bear me out in that. 14833. It was the vestry before who had the power! —Ye®. 14834. You do not see any alteration in the law is necessary to effect an improvement, but you want a different mode of administration ?—The present authorities for carrying out the Act are no better than those who did it before, and it has not been carried out in that district. 14835. What is your exact position?—Relieving officer. I was a medical assistant before that. 14836. Have you any statutory duty as relieving officer in connection with this housing problem ?—No, I have visited the buildings that have just been put up on Reid's Estate, and to my mind it is terrible to go there and see the miserable places they call rooms, and the rents which those poor people have got to pay. It is a perfect farce. 14837. (Lord Rothschild.) Are those new buildings? —Yes, on Reid's Estate. Some are not opened yet. 14838. (Chairman.) Are those occupied by aliens?-— There are some aliens in them. 14839. But it is not an alien colony at all?-—No, not yet. They are not all full yet. 14840. (Lord Rothschild.) Who put them up?—The County Council put them up, and some are put up by contractors. 14841. (Mr. Vallance.) Where in the discharge of your duty you find insanitary conditions, or a state of overcrowding, it is incumbent upon you, is it not, to report to the Borough Council ?—Quite so. 14842. And that you do ?—That I do. N.B.—Since giving evidence, the witness has un- reservedly withdrawn the statements contained in para- graphs 14800, 14824-14828, 14832-14834, so far a Section 2, for offences of overcrowding. 14859. (The Chairman.) At the Thames Police Court T —At the Thames Police Court. It will be noticed that there are altogether 33 summonses. 14860. Will you give us your evidence as to these figures ?—I may mention at once that my colleague, Mr. Mead, who gave evidence before the Commission, was perfectly right in saying that he had had very few cases; they have almost all been before me. Out of the 33 cases I have had 24, Mr. Mead has had nine altogether, but several of those have been since he gave evidence ; there- fore, I had the majority. On looking down the list you will see that up to the end of 1901 in the case of dwellings! there were only orders to abate with costs. In thost cases no penalty was asked for. But when that batch came before me in January, 1902, I suggested that a fine as well as an order should be asked for in order that a conviction might be recorded. An order, my Lord, as you know, is not a conviction, and it became necessary in my opinion in order that Section 7 might be brought into operation if necessary later on that a conviction should be recorded. Therefore I suggested that the penalty of Is. should be asked for as well, and then Section 7 might afterwards be called in. That is the section saying that upon two convictions within the period of three months the house may be closed. In that way pressure might be brought upon the landlord to look after the house in future, because his interests were involved then. Upon a second conviction the house could be closed. 14861. Do you suggest an alteration in the law; or do you think it is sufficient as it exists 1 Are these facts leading up to an alteration of the law ?—I would suggest that some slight alteration might be made, because I think the period of three months is too short. 14862. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is the period of three months mentioned in Section 7 h—Yes. 14863. Perhaps I had better read Section 7, which will bring it before the minds of the Commission: "Where two convictions for offences relating to the overcrowding of a house or part of a house in any district have taken place within a period of three months (whether the persons convicted were or were not the same), a petty sessional court may, on the application of the sanitary authority, order the house to be closed for such period as the court may deem necessary.7- You would518 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. J. 9 Mar. 1903. extend that period of three months ?—I would extend that period. 14864. Yoii 'think it is too short ?~Yes. 14865. (Chairman.) Are you made a petty sessional court by statute ?—-Yes., 14866. AU pqJice-Qourts are .made go.'?,—Yea;. I would extend the time to twelve months. 1486t. (Sir _ Ilenehn Digby.) Why ?—Because I think the^Hi^jnonths is too short. I think there is force in ihe observation as to the time eriiployed over one. case, though! think it is not so long as was suggested, namely, six weeks; I think; the pressure put upon the landlord to look affefr his place ought to be for a longer period, at all events, than- for three months. I would not limit it to tiv^lve &ibn th&. • 1486^. lie ought to haye a locus penitentice ?—Yes. , I do riot thinlc 1 would limit it absolutely to twelve months. 14869. (Chairman.) If there is a great nuisance existing is not ,threermonths enough for a man to abate it in ?— No. ; The point I want to make is that if there, are two convictions within three months then you can close the house. I would extend the time. I would be a'little moire seVerelon that point;. I think that would be advan- tageous. : I think it would compel him to obey. 14870. The law might be obeyed by skipping over the three iriqriths and making the application every fort- night ?^Yes ; the proceedings do take some time, owing to the notice. 14871. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You think it would be very effective in preventing overcrowding ?—I think it would. With regard to that, I think the doing away with the necessity of intimation by notice is desirable. I emphasise the necessity, because I think in many cases it is a fair act towards the man to give him the notice, but, in my opinion^ it is not absolutely necessary . I would make it optional; I would do away with the necessity. 14872. Do away with the necessity of notice Of the necessity of intimation and notice. In other words, I would pMce the public authority ori the same ground as the private individual is at the present moment. He has not tb-^ve-notice,.* Why should a public authority inf.whom cptfidence should be placed that; they will not act in- judiciously be handicapped, so to speak, in comparison with the private individual? < 14873. (Major Evans Goi'don.) What. power has the private individual ?—Under Section 12 he may proceed at-Price without notice. .14874. So that there is a distinctioi^ between the private person and the public authority ?—Yes. #14875. That Is very curious I—It is. I may just cite what Lord Russell said on that point with regard to another section ; he said : " The consequences of not requiring any previous notice to abate are not serious, because the court of summary jurisdiction may under Section 21 (2) suspend its final determination so as to give the offender an opportunity of abating the nuisance, and when it comes to the question of the impositon of a fine, the court can take-in to consideration the fact that the offender has not had an opportunity of abating the nuisance, but has been taken by surprise, as it were, by the proceedings.'' 14876. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Just to sum this up, you would, as I understand, do away with the absolute neces- sity for a notice in the case of a public body taking pro- ceedings, and alter the period of three months either by extending it to three months or by leaving it discretionary to the magistrate ?—I would rather have a period fixed, 14877; Would you explain a little more that fifth column of your table showing the various penalties with the results. I think it is merely carrying out what you have already said ?—I think in every case you will find since the 1st January, 1902, I have imposed a penalty as well as made an order except where it has been under the bye-laws. I have no power under the byedaws to make an order to abate. ' 14878. It is a penal offence ?—Simply a penal offence. 14879. A proceeding for penalties ?—Yes. In the other cases there has always been a penalty in order that the operation of Section 7 may be effective. 14880. Take the first, £5 and 23s. costs, result of over- crowding a workshop in the case of Barnet Abrahams. That would be £5 altogether ?—£5 penalty and 23s. costs. 14881. That would give a ground, would it, for proceed- ings under Section 7 ?—That is a workshop. 14882. Then that would be under the Factory Act■?— No, it is under Section 2, Sub-section 1 (g.) (iii.) 14883. Then, I see, that table shows whether it is simply a penalty or whether there is an order tp abate. If it, isr a dwelling-house there may be an order to abate ?—Yes. 14884. In the case of a workshop not 1—In the case pf a workshop not. .. ' 14885. Then the Is. which we have heard about beforew Which has been criticised by one or two witnesses, is ehc^ plained by you. You say you want to have a conviction recorded in order to give an opportunity for proceeding Under Section 7 if the offence continues ?-i—I vkni'ld like to make a further remark on that pbint of "th^ Is. It was the first time it had been ihtrodticedy ^iiid: in this case the people were tery potir people ; they were what are called the East End greeners •; they were new arrivals. They were everyone of theiii in excess in their own families, and there was nothing serious in the matter except that there was the over- crowding. If I imposed the penalty of 40s. plus the Costs; (and much more, 5os., a larger sum), I should have defeated my own object, because they could pay that penalty' of 28s., but they could not have paid a larger one, and th& result would have beeir that the person upon whom w& made the order to abate would have gone to prison, and therefore been .unable to carry Put my order and object. " 14886. If you take the costs into accoiuit tlic .onjer is a tolerably stiff one ?—May I say I never take the costs into consideration when I impose a penalty. I consider what the penalty should be, and then, having that in my mind, I consider what are the costs. I do not regard the costs as a punishment; I regard them as having been incurred by the person who is in fault, and it is clearly fair that he should bear the costs. But if I find the co^t^ are too heavy then I mitigate the penalty, because I do not think the prosecuting person should be out of pocket one penny if I can help it. ^ ; 14887. It comes out of Jais pocket and, therefore, it operates as a penalty ?—No doubt it does. 14888. Are the large portion of these persons who appear in your list the occupiers- or immediate landlords of the tenement, or are they or any of them lodgers ?—Th era ar e some keepers here, some lodgers and some occupiers. ; 14889. That is to say, ifi a lodger insists on.going in to an already overcrowded place you convict him ?—Yes. 14890. If the lodger causes the overcrowding by going into a place which is already overcrowded ?—Or which he- overcrowds. 14891. You would convict hirn ?—Certainly. I think he ought to be proceeded against first. The Act says it % the man by whose act there is any default; but in many cases, as 1 have ppinted; out, they are birds of passage arid iio proceedings can be taken. 14892. That point was strongly put forward by Mr. Mead ?—Yes, I perfectly agree with it. 14893. Now about bye-laws, have you many cases under the Bye-laws in Stepney ?—Yes. I will not say very' many because so far, of course, they have not been very long in operation, but I have had several cases* recently. In fact last week I had several cases. 14894. I see you are reported in this mornuig's " Times'^ as having made a conviction against the lodger ?—Yes., and against the keeper in many cases. After repeated convictions they still defied the law, and proceedings were taken. . 14895. That was for overcrowding under the Bye- laws ?—Yes. 14896. The Bye-laws define overcrowding and say there must be so many cubic feet to each personl—Yes5> the minimum area of space is defined. 14897. That gives you a definite rule ?—Yes, and is useful to us in construing the Act, Unfortunately in the Act there is no definition of what overcrowding is, but we .use the Bye-laws as an approximate guide to. us under the Act. 14898. Have you anything further to say on over- crowding ?—-No. 14899. (Chairman.) Do you suggest any alteration iii the law in respect to the powers of preventing or punishing; MPWraft; 0©y Eyd&JWfifBjry ^araro^ding ? If so jmsti sta/te them very shortly. : You mentiOned^oneabout extending the period of a conviction ^O jtwp cpnyiqtipns. Is there any other 1—No, I think not Except under the Bye-laws., j'ljii^ilaat'-fche Bye-laps are a very valuable supplement, to the Act, except those ^liat are in my opinion not valid. - • 14900^ Yoii. want thfem to be jcoade. within the power.? -r-yes,.;; ... .. •• - < 14901Apart, .from that, speaking generally, you have ^(suggestiomto make ^No, > , 1 14902'. (M&jor Evans Gordon.) May I ask you whether ite irmtibei^^ df feases inCourt representsthe activity of Tfche local authority in sanitary matters 1—No, not at all. 14903. The mere fact of there having been only 33 'Cases in that time does not by any means represent the cpieans,;tliey ^re ,taking to abate .overcrowding ?—No, I they are very active, >14904;. I see; the reqprd of closing orders all over England shows there were more in Stepney than in any •^ther part, of London J—Yes, I was going to bring that in under another branch. 14905,. You would not agree, that the local authority i§ supine and indifferent with regard to this question No, I think not; I think they have a most active medical ♦officer. . } 1 14906. (Mr. Vatlance.) Jt^ve ypu known of , cases in which persons who have been convicted for over-crowding liave had to resort to the workhouse by reason of such ^conviction for overcrowding ?—-I do not know how they liave 'tieeti served. ' I have never had the same parties before me twite* 14907. It. ?has never been reported to you , that they Ihave had to resort to the workhouse It has been stated that they have had to do so, but I have never known it. ^ 14908Vva strictlaw lead to any hardship, or would fe ^or§ apparent than real VJ think 5that if the law was/no^ administered,, iriay I say humanely, that is, if it -was administered too, strictly, it would lead to hardship, ^ut I think as itisadministered it does not lead to much. i4QQ9t i With .humane administration of the law there is i^o, reason to anticipate that serious difficulty would arise, in that respect %—No. 14910. If the public authorities were to step in and provide accommodation .for these people who are con- victed would that relieve the position in your opinion, or would 'it accentuate^ the! difficulty^—I think it would accentuate* it in almost prejudicial way. I think it would be pernicious;: ^ : i: : .14911., (Chfxirm^n.) If a man comes before you and being about, to be removed he says, " I have so many ^childfen^, I have no place to, go to, if I am turned out I have to stop on tfie street," hpw far do you take that into con- sideration i—I say, ." You have to go." If I possibly cap.; I make; inquiry; adjourn the case say for two days or'so^ae short period,, and I make inquiry with regard to the.matter. .If;it is a case where there is really a great difficulty;! make; the order to abate within seven days, and I have never .yet been able to find that he has not ie^n able to procure ac(^mmodation. 1491%;. {Mr. Vf the family ^I pfaee it in a different plane. : '' '14914:' (Chairman.). No^, will you kindly go to the next 'section bf yotir evidetice I do not think, perhaps, I £eed 'sat 'atiyMrig about the case of Weatheritt v. 'Catitlay,'; thfe'' lodging Jibu^ cstse. It raised a difficult qufetibhi^/ A : 'the : preseht moment the problem un- doubtedly is' ''What is a lodging-house.'' Ihave stat^d a «case| iMay s^y, within the last few days for the opinion of the High Court,! which will, T hope, raise the question clearly and get it settled. : :;^"f4915v' ) - suppose possibly there may be room for legislation ithere It is quite possible. Mr* J. One word with regard to the closing orders. It has been Dickimm. alleged that public authorities v^ho applied to the magis- trates of police courts for closing orders were unable to ^ ^r- get them. I have the return here from the 27th May, 1896, to. the 27th May, 1902. There were on; the applica- tion of the public authorities 623 summonses issued under the Housing of Working Classes Act and the Public Health Act, for closing orders. There were ■ only 15 out of that number refused. That is a little^^ :?nore than 2 per cent. 539 orders were made, 45 wei'e withdrawn and 15 refused. > l , ^ 14916. (Chairman.) These figures ■ relate- td < all the police courts'?—Yes. '' ' ' . - 14917.: Not to your district only ^ politan districts; ■ • • 14918. W6 get away from aliens there a great dean— Yes. / With regard to my own Court,'that is the'Thames Police Court, we had the most applications to us as re- gards summonses, 126 j and out 'of those 98 orders were made, 21 were withdrawn and seven were refused. I am responsible for refusing those seven. i: 14919. You cannot differentiate natives arid aliens i— I cannot differentiate in those cases. Those were simply on account of the insanitary state of the house. 14920. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The names are significant in this! return 1—Yes. In the overcrowding' cases ^ there are only six naines of natives out of the whole number of 33. I put in the names of the parties in the return. 14921. (Major Evans- Gordon.) Even so are names always an absolute guide ?—No, I cannot see that they are, but we take them as approximate. When we get an unmistakable foreign name we say that is an alien. 14922. My .point is that the six that have English names may be foreigners too 2—Yes. , 1-4923, It is the praqtice, is it not, for the foreigner to change his,name into an JEnglish name more than for the Englishman to change his name into the foreign name ?— In overcrowding cases I do not think they do it either way. In distinctly criminal cases they do change their names. I think in overcrowding, cases the name is , an indication. 14924. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You- have details of the other London Courts which are not worth going into ?— Yes. ' v.'- ' 14925. (Major Evans Gordon.) So that to sum up generally you would not say that the overcrowding in' the East End or the part of Stepney, which is in your Thames district is due to the indifference or supineness of the local authorities Certainly not. 14926. (Chairman.) Now, will you w .to the next point 1—The next point is the Thames charges generally —the criminal charges for the last ten years,, I have taken these from the police statistics, and I have taken the ten years 1892 to 1901, and. under the heads of the various crimes you will find them divided also into natives and aliens, and the percentages, I take crimes of violence; in the, year 1892 there were137 British subjects and seven foreigners only ; in 1901 the returns were 25 natives and 23 aliens. The percentage I have made out below, 84 to 16 in i892 and 52 to 48 in 1901 is with regard to crimes of violence. Then with regard to burglary, house and shop breaking, the numbers are, in 1892, 35 natives and three .aliens, but in 1901 there are 27 natives, to 14 aliens. : Then robbery and larbeny : in 1892 there were 60QI natives and 77 aliens, but in 1901 there were 411 natives to 142 aliens. - , , 14927. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) These percentages are only percentages of the total crimes. You have not carried it out with reference to population at all 1—Oh, no, npt with, regard to population. I have not dealt with that.; _ 14928. (Major Evans Gordon.) You cannot give the exact populations—No. With regard to disorderly prostitutes, not including cases where robbery was involved, there were 221^natives, in 1892 and 13 aliens only. In 19bl there were 184 natives and 52 aliens. Obstruction by 1 costermongers, including charges and summonses, in 1892, 15 natives and 17 aliens ; in 1901, 54 natiyeg^and 153 aliens. ' Then I have , also included hawking illicit spirits and working stills for the whole ten520 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. J. Dickinson. 9 Mar: 1903. years ; I have lumped them together as they are not many. There are four natives and 21 foreigners. With regard to that point as to working illicit stills, it is an offence against the Revenue, but it is on a very small scale as a rule. It is making their own spirit which they use, I think, for their festivals, their schnapps and kimmel, a custom which they have brought over with them from abroad. I cannot say I think it is a very serious offence from the money point of view. ,14929. (Major Evans Gordon.) We have had evidence fem the Revenue authorities as to the scale of it. Some are very considerable and some are small ?—Now keeping gaming and betting houses. In the ten years there were 15 na-tives and 43 aliens. 14930. {Chairman.) I see these very interesting figures refer to the " H " Division, Stepney ?—I have taken only the district over which I have jurisdiction, that is, I have not gone outside the " H" Division, Stepney, including the three Police Districts, Leman Street, Arbour Square, and Shadwell, which is the area you have been dealing with chiefly. We have a further district than that outside. 14931. This is all within your Thames Police Court 1— Yes, it is—Stepney. 14932. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Your district is not co- terminous with the "H" Division ?—It is much larger, but it is not affected by this inquiry, because it includes Limehouse, where there are practically no aliens. 14933. This, of course, is not a return from your whole district1—No, only from the " H " Division. (Major Evans Gordon.) We had the boundaries of the " H " Division before. 14934. (Chairman.) In 1892 it must have been within your cognisance the alien immigration had made very little way at that time ?—Very little. 14935. Will you state some quantum. You cannot take the population. Whilst there has been great growth in crime in the aliens, there has also been growth in population in the aliens ?—Undoubtedly. I think that question of disorderly prostitutes is shown so much, because the alien disorderly woman has practically taken possession of the Leman Street district, and the native disorderly woman has passed out to the East India Dock Road. That follows, of course, because the alien popula- tion has taken possession of the area, and naturally the woman remains where her own people are. * 14936. And where the language is spoken ?—Where the language is spoken. 14937. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do not answer the question if you think you cannot answer it. Can you tell me whether the persons who come before you are mainly people who have been here sometime or those who have freshly arrived % Have you any large proportion of those who have freshly arrived 2—I think of the disorderly prostitutes; a great number of them are freshly arrived, because they do not speak English. 14938. Take the other crimes. Take for instance the more serious ones, robbery and larceny, burglary, and shop-breaking %—A very great number of those do not speak English, 14939. (The Chairman.) What language do they speak— Yiddish 1—Yiddish or Russian. 14940. (Mr. Vallance.) Have any of these cases come before you in which it has been brought out in evidence that these girls have been imported by the aid of others, or that the immigration has been a voluntary act on their part ?—As far as I know, voluntary. 14941. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do they come over sepa- rately ?—Very often with a man. 14942. I should Uke to ask you this. How far have you found the Act of 1848, the Vagrancy Act, effective in your district 1—It is an extremely difficult Act to ad- minister. Every difficulty is thrown in the way. Very frequently the woman who the night before has given the man into custody refuses to appear next day. 14943. (Major Evans Gordon.) Are those the souteneur cases 1-7-Yes. 14944. (Sir Kenelm Digby.)\The woman changes her mind 14945. I suppose living in whole or in part on the pro- ceeds of prostitution is a difficult thing to prove ?—Yes, 14946. However, the Act has been effective to a great extent in most parts of London ?—It has. 14947. (Major Evans Gordon.) Just on this list of cases we are asking about now. Was it before you that there were three cases of disorderly houses the other day in Ely Terrace and a court in Stepney ?—I cannot say that they were before me, but I do know that Ely Terrace has altered very much indeed in the last few years, and where formerly there were practically no aliens there are now 30 or 40 women living who are undoubtedly dis- orderly. 14948. In that Ely Place h—Yes. 14949. Of a foreign character 1—Yes. 14950. There were three prosecutions there, and three- were caught and heavily fined. That was not before you 1—I am not sure. Recently I have had Ely Terrace before me. 14951. Streets of that character are going down in morality ?—Yes. 14952. (The Chairman.) I suppose most of these women are of the class we are enquiring into-r-the Russian Polish Jew?—Yes. 14953. What we call the alien immigrant 1—Yes ; there are a great many Germans too. 14954. So far as you can judge, are the persons who are coming here and working as unskilled labourers -unskilled workmen ?—It depends upon the offence. For instance in the case of obstruction by costermongers they are unskilled, but the other crimes, robbery, and burglary, and shop-breaking seem largely to be committed by pro- fessionals. 14955. That is what I wanted to get from you. WTe have had before us evidence that a class of these people who come over here are really men who are honest and sober and industrious, but there seems also to be a second class which is almost professionally criminal ?—Yes. 14956. Could you distinguish between them 1 Do you find there has been an inroad of professional criminals, as far as you can judge ?—In the last few weeks some illustra- tive cases have come before me, and I thought I would mention those in conclusion, It has been suggested that aliens who are mentally and physically disabled are coming into this country and becoming chargeable on the rates. I will take "O's " case, which was before me recently. The defendant was summoned to contribute towards the support of his son, who was chargeable in a lunatic asylum. He lived in England two years ago with his. wife and family. He then took them back to Russia, and left them-there, and returned here in February of this year with his lunatic son. The son became chargeable on the 12th April. Therefore the man has his wife and the rest of his family in Russia, and he brings the lunatic son and makes him chargeable to our rates in England. That is a tailor earning 30s. a week, and when he was summoned to contribute he offered 2s. a week. It was accidentally that I discovered this, because he offered to give evidence on his own behalf with regard to his means, and finding that he spoke English so well, and said he had only been in England since February, I asked him how he came to speak English so well, and then he admitted he ,had been in England previously. Then came out the story that he had taken his wife and children over to Russia, left them there, brought this lunatic back, and planted him on the rates. 14957. That does not touch the question I was on. I want, if I can, to learn from you whether you can trace the reason of the inroad of professional criminals. I want to know whether they have come over in any way in order to work or whether it is really a criminal induce- ment which brings them —I had " A. G.'s " case before me recently, a few days ago, for picking a woman's pocket of 4s. 2d. He had only been a short tithe in this country, and there were found on him some letters from persons in prison in Russia, in which they declared their intention of joining him as soon as they were released. 14958. I want your evidence as a whole. Has there been a change of late years in the class of foreign criminals coming before you ?—There has. 14959. And you can notice a sort of invasion of pro-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 521 Sessional criminals ?—Yes. I had before me two years ago, in the winter of 1901, a gang of 12 Germans. Eight of them were charged with burglary and four with re- ceiving. They were all taken to the Central Criminal 'Court, tried there, and convicted there. It was proved these men were skilled burglars who had simply come into this country, and as one of them said himself, " I *can prove I have only been three months in the country." He was one of the most skilled of the burglars. 14960. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You do not know how they liad come ?—They had come separately and joined here, and had committed a series of raids round London. .14961. That is the way you would expect professional •criminals to come. If they came for the purpose of committing their crimes they would come singly %—It was then said some of these men, being unknown to the police, prospected, and the others were able to commit their thefts. 14962. It is very material for us to know whether in these shiploads which come over there is known to be a large proportion of the criminal class who have probably come here for the purpose of prosecuting their careers of crime. At present we have had little evidence on that point. I do not know whether you can help us.?—I cannot say how they come. They may come as first •class passengers. 14963. (The Chairman.) We have been dealing with the Immigration of aliens who have suffered in some cases ,-great poverty, and have come over to seek a better life and refuge here. Now there seems to be a class of persons who may be honest and industrious and temperate. Another difference is in reference to these professional criminals which you say is the case. Can you give us any suggestion as to how this invasion of the second class has come to take place recently (l—I ♦can only conclude they have been hunted out of their ^country as criminals and come here to find a new field. 14964. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you ever known of that ?—! can only tell you that they have taken to 'Crime the moment they have arrived. 14965. (The Chairman.) The point is the hunting out of 'their own foreign country ?—That is only an inference I draw. If a man comes into the country a skilled criminal, I can only conclude he has been hunted out. 14966. The expression, "hunted out" looks,as if the foreign Governments were sending them here ?—No, I >do not suggest that for a moment. 14967. It may be that, being in danger, he voluntarily ♦comes here, which satisfies your words " hunted out " ?— Yes. ,14968, He escapes the hounds 2—He escapes the ■tiounds. 14969. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There have always been a great piany criminals coming backwards and forwards ? —Yes. 14970; Do you think that has increased ?—I think the increase has been considerable in the last few years. 14971. Do you connect it with this great increase of poor Jews and Poles and so on, from Central Europe ?— It is a very: difficult thing to say. I do not know how '-anybody is to answer that question. ;14972. (Major Evans Gordon.) There is the case you 'referred to of the man recently returned from America ? —TIn a case which was before me a few days ago, " D. G.'s " 'Case, obstruction by a barrow continued day after day. He /told us that he was sent back in the same ship from -the United States as undesirable, having no means ; that is, as likely, I suppose, to become a public charge. He Mr. J. returned to this country, and having no means, a fellow Dickinson. countryman told him to sell onions in the street in a \rrr~^~ ' ' barrow. He did so, caused obstruction, and would not r* move, and was promptly brought to the Court. 14973. These are America's rejected coming her« ?— Yes. 14974. I see you have stowaways down. Have you any case of that kind.?—Yes ; but I cannot say anything more about the'stowaways than that they mostly, feeling they are in the way in this country, try to get out of it. 14975. They were getting out, not coming in 1—There was nothing to find out. 14976. What is the case of Goldstein? That is an overcrowding case again ?—Yes. 14977. Then the case of men living on earnings of immoral women ?—Yes, I had a very serious case of that kind a short time ago. 14978. Was that a foreigner too f—Yes, neither the man nor the woman spoke English. He was charged with assaulting a Polish Jewess, and it was proved that he. came over with her from Poland in October, and had only done four days' work since ; that she went out on the streets to earn the rent and food, that he used to follow her about, and on several occasions was seen to take money from her in the street. She said herself that he beat her when she did not bring home enough money, and she was corroborated in that by the landlord. The previous day, as was proved by the police, he seriously beat her. 14979. They were residents in that part of the East End ?—In the neighbourhood of Leman Street. Upon that I must say that that is a kind of offence which is not confined to the alien, I am sorry to say. 14980. It is an offence very common up in the West, in the foreign colony in Soho ?—Yes. 14981. You say, I see, that street-walking and im- morality in the East End are greatly increasing 1— Undoubtedly. 14982. That many alien women adopt English names, and are so classified by the police in consequence ?— After they have been a certain time in this country they frequently do so. 14983. Therefore, though the returns with regard to street-walking and prostitution, and so on, show a few aliens, that would not be at all a criterion that all the aliens were shown in the actual figuresNo. 14984. The change of name is very common in the case of a foreign population ?—I think it very frequently is. 14985. Then you say here that many women take rooms for immoral purposes. Do they let them out to men and women 1—No, I think that is one of the results of Weatheritt v. Cantlay, that these women now come and take single rooms for the purpose of immorality, and these beqome houses, and they cannot be prosecuted for keeping disorderly houses because they are single women living in the house. If one woman lives in a house, and it is resorted to by men, and she alone lives there for the purpose of her life, she cannot be prosecuted. 14986. It is only when there is a locataire, when there is a woman who keeps it, and women who resort to it, not when the woman alone keeps the house ?—That is so. 14987. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do the majority of these people convicted before you pay their fines %—Yes, a very considerable number of them—a very large number. Mr. Owen Connellan, called; and Examined. 149881 '(Major [ Evans Gordon.) You are the Secretary . of London and Northampton, described before the Sweating Commission as the worst paid men in the boot, trade. Accounts vary as to how much per week they, are able to make at these rates. No doubt there is a good, deal of difference." Then they go on and say : " For the purposes of examination, however, let us accept the statement of Mr. Laudy "—that was the Jewish employer who wrote to them—" that he has eight men who can earn between them £12 7s. 6d. a week. In order to do- this they must make five and a half gross of pairs. Now four of these workmen are finishers, and the highest estimate given to the Sweating Commission of the speed- at which a foreigner can turn out the lowest class of work, placed it at a dozen pairs in four hours. Therefore, it; will be seen that in order to complete Mr. Laudy's tale each of these finishers must be employed eleven hours a: day, probably six days a week, not counting meal times."' 15017. Is this a seasonal trade? Are there slack, times and busy times, or does it go on pretty well the same all the year round ?—It is not such a seasonal trade - as clothing, but it has its times of slackness. 15018. Has there been a large displacement of the - native population in certain quarters of Leeds by the foreigners?—Yes, there has been one area where the • aliens have entirely displaced the native population, , that is the area of the Leylands. 15019. Are the rents higher there ?—The rents are much higher. They have been forced up by Jewish t capitalists acquiring the property. 15020. And overcrowding the houses and putting people in ?—The houses are, I think, overcrowded in this . way, by the tenants letting lodgings. 15021. Sub-letting ?—Yes. I do not think it has been proved that the landlords are overcrowding. 15022. You are on the Town Council of Leeds ?—Yes.. 15023. Do the Town Council take any action as to this . overcrowding ?—Yes, they do so, but it has not been to a great extent by prosecution. 15024. How do you proceed, by bye-laws ?—Yes, they have bye-laws. The Sanitary officials warn them, and if notice is not taken of it then they prosecute. 15025. I see you say here with regard to rents there is. some duplicity in their having two rent books, and so forth ?—What it means is this, that the tenant pays a much higher rent than the rent book shows. 15026. Have you any evidence of that, or is that only supposition ?—The statement is made, and I believe another witness will give you evidence in greater detail! in regard to this matter, but I know that a few years ago - the extent of the rack renting that went on in the Leylands was so great that the Jewish population there rebelled against it, and there were some very serious cases of assault. There were several heard in the police court, with the result that one or two of the leaders in those assaults were sent to prison. 15027. Did that riot or trouble result in any reduction of rents, or have they gone on increasing ?—I have not- heard that there has been any decrease ; in fact the tendency has been rather to increase the rents. 15028. Are there any estimates of figures in regard to> the foreign population in Leeds ?—I have a statement here from an official of the Leeds Corporation with regard. to this area. 15029. The Leylands area ?—Yes. 15030. Do you attach much value to the census in the:: way of accuracy ?—No; I do notMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 523 • 15031. Why Because I believe there are a much larger number in the Jewish houses than the census returns show. (The Chairman.) In round numbers it is about 7,500 foreigners. (Major Evans Gordon.) Exclusive of children of foreign parents born in this country. 15032. (The Chairman.) That may be so. Those are the foreigners. Take it for what it is worth. That is about 7,500. What is your population in Leeds ?— 440;000 to 450,000 15033. '(■Major Evans Gordon.) What did your Councillor say ?—He is an official of the Leeds Corporation. It will Hot bear out those figures that have just been read from - the! census returns. He gives me in the Jewish area— the peculiar Jewish area of Leylands—1,510 houses which are occupied by Jews. He says that they always calcu- late five persons to each house. 15034. That brings it up to this number ?—He goes •on to say in the case of Jews, as you know, they are often •overcrowded. 15035. That includes the English Jews as well as the foreign Jews. We are dealing with the aliens as dis- tinguished from the English born Jews. That would include both, I suppose. Yes, you cannot distinguish between them because the alien comes to his Jewish ifriends. 15036. (The Chairman.) I understood there were a igreat many English Jews in Leeds. There is a large proportion of English Jews in Leeds, is there not ?—There asi1 lThere are second and third generations of Jews in Leeds. 15037. I am astonished you only have 1,510 houses occupied by Jews ?—1They are spreading out. There is ^another district which they call the Camp Eoad district, which iii a few years will be as bad as the Leylands. 15038. (Major Evans Gordon.) I see you say there is ;a good deal of home working in the houses among this iforeign population ?—Yes. 15039. That is the cause of excessive hours of labour and reduced prices for work ?—Yes, I say it is largely Tesponsibte for it, because where people can work in their *own homes there is no controlling the hours they work. 115040. You say you are of opinion that some restriction ^hqula be put on that. What is your idea about it ?— I do not advocate a general restriction of aliens. What I me&h* is this, I would not have a law prohibiting the landing of all aliens in this country. I think myself . there should be some restriction placed on the people who are destitute, who are coming into this country withput any possible means of livelihood, and also some -people who are incapable of earning their living by reason ^f.infirnnty;, either mental or physical. : i ? 115041; Whaft atouit the diseased, you would exclude jtheml?—Yes. 1 15042. About the people of bad character, you would exclude them, I suppose ? Then that is a very difficult Jthing/ to ascertain until they have been here some time ? —With regard to the character of the Jews, I think that they have rather degenerated during later years. 15043. The class of people who are coming, you mean ? —Yes, we have some Jews now of rather the rough •element in Leeds, and I have had some bad cases of assault. I know tliere was one very bad case of manslaughter a few months ago ; it was undoubtedly a case where some Jews had killed a young man,, and I see complaints have been once or twice made in the public newspapers of Jews standing about; but beyond that sort of loafing and a little, bit of hooliganism I do not know that we have a ilarge criminal population. . 15044. Not in Leeds ?—Not in Leeds. 15045. You would say that the tendency of the people who are coming now is somewhat downward %—Yes, I ■do not say they are by any means as good a class as used to come some 15 years ago. 15046. (Mr. Wallance.) You have spoken -of the influx •of aliens into Leeds and overstocking an already depressed i market.. When the first aliens came in was trade depressed then?—No, I do not think it was depressed at that •time. There was a greater opening for them, *10 doubt, iparticularly in the clothing- trade. 15047. Upon the arrival then of a . good jnanyvof these aliens there was labourwaiting for them which the English- Mr. 0, man was unable to compass. Js that so?—I do not Conmllcm. know that I go so far as to say that the English workman 9 Mar"i903, was unable to compass it. I think there was not that —!— keenness of competition in those days for that work, and therefore the presence of an alien was not felt by an English worker as it is to-day. 15048. Assuming there is depression in the labour market in Leeds and other places, you are in favour not of exclusion but of restriction if I understand rightly ?— Yes. 15049. Supposing a man healthy, honest, and indus- trious, so far as is known, presents himself or comes into ■the country, and he comes to compete with such labour, would you exclude him, or would you not ?—I should say that unless he has some visible means of existence to support himself when arriving in this country he ought to be excluded. If men come into England penniless—that is our experience among these Jewish people especially—they are obliged to accept work at a very low rate of wages in order to be able to earn a liveli- hood. 15050. Transpose the picture, and take an Englishman emigrating to another country, would he not be in a position of disadvantage ?—I fully expected you to ask that, but I have never found my experience to bear that out. I know Englishmen who go abroad to get higher wages, I never heard of them working at lower wages. 15051. Very few Englishmen would be able to prove that they would be able to earn their living ?—I think there would not be any difficulty in an Englishman proving that he was able to earn his living if he was going to any of our Colonies or America. 15052. With reference to Leeds, the area occupied mainly by Jews is this Leylands area, it it not ?—Yes, mainly. 15053. What class of population had you there prior to the alien Jews taking possession ?—A middle class and artisan population. 15054. Was it a respectable working class ?—Oh, yes. 15055. Is it correct or incorrect to say that there was a considerable criminal population there ?—At any time ? 15056. Yes, before the alien took possession ?—I do not think it would be correct to say there was a con- siderable criminal population at any time, or at present. 1505/. What is the general character of the alien population occupying the Leylands area ?—I should say, on the whole, they are good citizens. 15058. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is it your experience that those who begin to work for small remuneration rapidly advance and get better paid ?—Not rapidly. They are generally working for very low wages for two and three years. That is my experience. 15059. And after that'?—After that they get to be working as ordinary workmen. Very often some of them are pretty keen busine^ men, and they get into work for themselves as small employers. 15060. Have they introduced any new methods of work, especially in the boot trade ?—They have intro- duced a sub-division of the work in the slipper making, anil also to a certain extent in the clothing. 15061. Is that connected with the increase of machinery? Yes 15062. As machinery increases work gets more sub- divided ?—That is so. 15063. And the alien lends himself to that kind of work ?—Yes, he lends himself to that kind of work because of course he is not a skilled workman. He could not make a whole garment. 15064. Or a whole shoe ?—No. 15065. Do you take the view that the effect of the increase of alien labour has been to alter the character of the manufacture, and that whereas whole garments and whole shoes used to be made by one man, now they are made by various processes of sub-division ?—I should not say myself that the aliens living in this country have brought this about. They probably have drifted into it because it was the easiest thing for them to put their hands to. ■*. ' v 6144. 3 u 2524 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGBATION : Mr. 0. 9jMa^r. 1903. 15066. It has also been the result of the development of machinery ?—Yes. On the other hand you can. find plenty of large factories in Leeds in the clothing and boot and shoe making trades where there are no Jews employed, and where the same sub-division goes on. 15067. {Chairman.) I see your population is Leeds is 428,000 in round figures. Then you have got 7,500 foreigners of whom we will say 4,000 in round numbers are males. Are the workmen you have been speaking of males, or are there many females working 1—Yes, there are a good many females. 15068. What trade would they be in 2—In the clothing trade. 15069. You do not know about the increase. We have heard the increase for the whole county of York is this, that in 1891 there were 15,755 foreigners and in 1901 there were 17,000, and the increase of males had been from 9,100 to 10,200 ; that is the whole county of York. According to that there is no town with so many foreigners as Leeds ?—No. 15070. Can you fix any time when according to your view there was an increase, what I will call an invasion of these aliens I should say the invasion commenced about 20 years ago. 15071. There has never been any very marked increase in late years 1—It has not been so marked during the last five years as it was in the preceding years. 15072. I understand that your objection to their coming at all is that they come as unskilled labour and work at less than the English worker does. That is your real objection Yes, that is my objection, and also the fact that as they only come into one or two industries they are making the position very bad for the aliens who are already in this country. 15073. That is the same thing, because they are working for less wages ?—Yes. 15074. It is the same point, but a different application % —Yes, many of these recognise that themselves. 15075. You know the term "greener," which is the- person who works in the first instance for small wages %— Yes. 15076. As he gets skilled does he also earn higher- wages ?—Yes, as he gets skilled he gets higher wages. He has learned the trade to some extent. 15077. Then the fact is that the alien finds that he is< an unlearned workman, and in that time of improvement, he works for small wages ?—Yes, he is working merely for his lodging and food. 15078. That is advantageous to him in one sense, because- he is learning ; and advantageous to the employer,, because he is getting certain labour at low wages h—Yes. 15079. (Major Evans Gordon.) Was there not a sub- division of labour before the aliens began to arrive ?— Yes. I have understood it commenced before the aliens- arrived. 15080. Subdivision existed before they arrived %—III some of the clothing factories. 15081. Is subdivision due to machinery or the aliens t —It is due to the machinery. 15082. Not to them Not to the initiative of the aliens. 15083. There would be subdivision whether the aliens, were here or not ?—Yes. 15084. (The Chairman.) Is there any less subdivision T —The subdivision is carried out in many of the Leeds- factories where there are no aliens. 15085. (Major Evans Gordon.) Is it because to a large- extent. the alien is unskilled that he takes to this kind, of work %—Yes, he does not seem to go into ariy other industry except clothing and slipper making, the lighter- classes of boot and shoe making. Mr. Lewis Bialofski called, and Examined. Mr. L. 15086. {Major Evans Gordon.) What nationality are Bialofsku you A native Jew. 15087. Born in this country %—Yes. 15088. What are you ?—I am a boot and shoe operative. 15089. Where ?—In Leeds. 15090. Do you represent any body of men 1—The National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives in Leeds. 15091. Is that a branch in Leeds ?—Yes. 15092. How many men are there in the branch ? —2,000. 15093. Jews and Gentiles 2—Yes. 15094. What proportion of Jews and Gentiles *1—If I say there are 30 Jews that will be all. 15095. Thirty Jews only h—Yes. 15096. The rest are English ?—English. 15097. With reference to the wages question. What effect has the alien immigration upon the wages in your business ?—I might state here that in 1896 we started organising the aliens in Leeds, and they appointed me as their secretary. There was a statement in operation that Alderman John Judge, now in Northampton, drew up in 1890. That statement was in operation up to 1896, but it was never acted up to. But for the aliens to have a better understanding we started organising the aliens in 1896, and they appointed me as their secretary, and this is one of the statements drawn out under which em- ployers agreed to pay. 15098. This is for the alien workmen to form a trade union 1—Yes. 15099. These were the scales of wages which were agreed upon between employer and employed ?—Yes. 15100. When, was this statement drawn up ?—In 1896. 15101. Since then 1—Since then the wages have been reduced. I have particulars of a firm here in Trafalgar Street. He pays for rivetting men's slippers 2s. 9d. per dozen, the statement should be 3s. 3d. per dozen. 15102. What they call men's welt slippers ?—No, men's p jmp slippers. 15103. I find men's pump slippers 3s. in your state- ment here 1That is so, but there is 3d. extra on the- wages below. There is machine sown 3d. extra. 15104. What is the reduction there 1—6d. per dozen. 15105. I do not think we need enter into any detail on, these, but has there been a corresponding reduction in the other kinds 1—More in other kinds. 15106. What is the most reduction, and in which kind t —I have a firm here in 1896. 15107. Is that one of the firms that agreed 1—We made them all agree to the statement, all the Jewish employers. This is what one of the employers signed, with me. This is a firm as to which I wish to go through, the whole of the prices. I have his signature that he agreed to pay the statement rate of wages, and this is> how he is doing it. 15108. Give us the general result and give us the most prominent instance ?—I think this thing has never been* gone into before in the slipper making industry. 15109. (Chairman.) We want the general result, we do not want the particulars 1—I only want to show on an average if a man worked for 33s. he received only 24s. for it, sometimes less. 15110. (Major Evans Gordon.) That result I understand you to say is brought about by the influx of cheap labour from abroad ?—Yes. 15111. That undercuts this statement %—Yes, the em- ployers make them work at these prices. 15112. These people will work at these reduced prices t —Less than I have here. 15113. Have you put down the total reduction What he ought to get 33s. for he gets 24s., and sometimes, less. 15114. Have you suffered from this in that way 1— There was not a Jewish employer who would employ me- because I wanted the statement rate of wages. They had me boycotted because of this statement. 15115. Because they will not stick to this statement h— Yes.MINUTES OF .EVIDENCE. 525 15116. Is this statement universal amongst the shops ? —This statement ought to be universal, but there is not a Jewish employer in Leeds pays it—not one. 15117. You attribute this to the fact of their being able to get men whenever they want them cheap 1— Certainly. 15118. Now with regard to overcrowding, is that complained of in Leeds too ?—Oh, yes. There are houses that I,know with one room upstairs and one down- stairs. There will be five sleeping upstairs and probably one downstairs, but downstairs they seem to have made a kind of couch—what they call a shloff bunk, and it is made like a square box and looks like a couch. This is taken off and they can make it into a bed. If any stranger * comes into the house he cannot tell whether it is a bed "or not. 15119. There is nothing wrong in that ?—It is in the living room. 15120. Is this overcrowding complained of generally in Leeds? What are the sanitary authorities about?— I do not know what they are doing really. 15121. You say this overcrowding is more peculiar to the new arrivals than to the local people 1—1 have known JO Poles, all grown up men, living in two rooms in Malt Street. 15122. Is this overcrowding accompanied by a rise of rents Yes. 15123. How have the rents risen. Have you any statement to make as to that %—We lived in a house in Regent Street, and paid £13 10s. per year rent. ; 15124. They are not on weekly tenancies, are they 1— Yes, mostly weekly. We paid monthly for this house. We paid £13 10s. per year. It belonged to a Christian landlord. I am speaking now of about 16 years ago. The rent increased when the Jewish landlord bought it to £27. There was a bit of empty space with railings round in front of the house. Of course the bit of land there was an eyesore to him, and he had erected two shops, one at each corner, and raised the rent to £59 16s. 15125. Have you cleared out of it 2—We cleared out at the first rise to £27. 15126. Has the practice of key money crept into Leeds too ?—Yes, in one shop they called it a valuation.. The tenant practically got no valuation at all. What he got was the place with the walls to paper, and he paid! £7 10s. in Eegent Street in an insanitary area. 15127. What is the feeling generally in Leeds. Is the feeling among your Trades Union strong about this 2— I wish to state that the increasing or rents has been from 10 per cent, to over 100 per cent, in little small dwellings. Opposite the house which I described where we lived was a back room where they paid 2s. 6d., and where they are now paying 6s. 9d. The only alteration has been a little window put in the front. 15128. Is that due to the large increase from abroad or have rents increased proportionately ?—I cannot say they have increased proportionately. We have a three- roomed house for 4s., and if we were in that area we should probably have to pay 10s. 15129. Generally speaking you say that the rents have increased in the alien inhabited area 2—They have increased from 10 per cent, to what I have stated. 15130. What is the feeling generally among your people about this alien immigration. Do they complain of it 1—They feel it very strongly. 15131. You are beginning to feel it strongly in Leeds now vl—Ye3. Mr. L, BialofsM. 9 Mar. 190a'' Me. James Oates Bairstow, called ; and Examined. 15132. (Major Evans Gordon.) You, I understand, w;ere connected with the wholesale clothing trade in Huddersfield ?—I was. 15133. In what year did your firm commence in the clothing trade ?—1869. , 15134. At that time was there any either foreign or English Jewish labour in Huddersfield ?—None whatever. 15135. Did you take any part in organising the labour in your firm I did. 15X36. Obtaining and organising 1—Obtaining and organising. 15137. Among those people you obtained were there Jewish people ?—There were. 15138. What class of garments did they make for you 1 —Entirely coats. 15139. Did you employ any other Jewish labour ?— None whatever. 3,5140. Why did you employ these Jewish people for coats only —Because at that time there was no possibility of getting English tailors to work at the trade. 15141. To work at that coat trade ?—Not the whole- sale trade. 15142. They were confined to the bespoke trade, were they 1—They were confined to the bespoke trade at that time ; also there were no apprentices being made to the trade, so that the master tailors,of the country were very short of labour everywhere. That was what really founded the clothing trade. Ours was one of the earlier firms in the trade. My father and myself were the founders of the trade in Huddersfield. 15143. What have been the methods of your firm during later years in regard to organising and so on ?— The methods of my firm have been to extend the factory system and to place the works absolutely under Govern- ment Factory inspection, and so far as possible to exercise humane methods. I have recently been in Huddersfield, and I find at the present time we scarcely employ any Jew labour at all. 15144. Your tendency was to do away with the home work, and to get it into the factory as much as possible % —Yes, that is the trend of the Yorkshire trade as a whole. 15145. ,They try to do that ?—There are some very large factories in Leeds. 15146. Did your firm sub-divide the labour before this foreign labour came in 2—Yes. 15147. Sub-division existed before 2—Yes, it was absolutely necessary. Of course, it was only a few years after the introduction of the sewing machine. 15148. Can you make any statement as regards the influence of the alien workers in the clothing trade, especially, of course, as regards the North of England 1— So far as my experience goes, the clothing trade depended in its early history absolutely upon alien labour. It depended upon it for the coat trade. 15149. In the wholesale business 1—I think I am quite safe in saying absolutely so. 15150. On the alien labour On the alien labour for the coat trade. 15151. But not for other parts of the trade 1—No, for the juvenile trade it was entirely female labour. 15152. English ?—English almost entirely—in fact,, I think our factory was entirely English labour, most of them being girls from Huddersfield. 15153. What conclusions do you draw from those figures ?—The conclusions which I draw from the figures are that to boycott alien labour in any possible form would be to destroy some branches of the clothing trade„ especially the shipping trade. 15154. W^at is that ?—The export trade. The con- clusions that my firm have drawn from our experience* has been that although alien labour is useful in some1 branches of the trade, yet the extension of the factory system on the whole is a benefit not only to the trade- itself in making it more extensive, but also to the district from which the large amount of female labour is employed. The factory system is, I think, the crux of the whole system very largely, because Yorkshire as opposed to London is at the head of organised clothing labour. It has taken the leading position in the way of organising, labour above London, because in London there are few factories of any dimensions at all. Nearly all the clothing labour in London is what might be termed outside labour, or at least the great proportion of it. Mr, J. a BcUt stO'ltT-ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : W. J. 0. 15155. {Chairman) We will get to the effect of alien. Iairstoiv. labour,, if you please If you will allow me I should Mair~1903 rea^ a statement as to what has taken place in I—.'LJ— '' the introduction of alien labour, more especially as it concerns the North of England. The conclusions that may be drawn are, first, that the largest number of immigrants consists of Russians and Poles, and, secondly, that the total number of immigrants has gradually increased in all parts from 35,448 in 1896, to 62,505 in 1900. > 15156. In what district ?—This is in the whole of the country. ; 15157. What country ? The whole of Great Britain 1 —Yes. 15158. Where do you get the figures from 1—The Blue Books. The total number of immigrants has gradually increased in all parts from 35,448 in 1896 to 62,505 in 1900, and in London from 17,108 in 1896 to 30,593 in 1900. It can be stated that by far the largest proportion of the Russians and Poles are employed in the clothing trade. Most of these have landed at country ports sucli as Hull, Grimsby, etc., and have found their way to Hull, Leeds, Manchester, Huddersfield, and other parts where the cldthing trade is carried on. The rest have probably remained in London or other suburban cities and towns where there also are clothing establishments. In York- shire the tendency has been of late years, as I said, to develop the factory system. These are not employed so much in sweating dens as they used to be. The great need for the Jewish working tailors and for the English- men whom they sometimes employ is a better organised system, with a combination to get proper prices from their Rasters, both English and Jews. I have had a number of conversations with Jews on this subject, and that opinion seems to be increasing in every direction, but the fact also that'there is in no part of the country, so far as my know- ledge is concerned, any trades union for women is a very important one. 15159. (Major Evans Gordon.) What is the particular point you want to make a statement about 1—The par- ticular point is this, that in the first part of this evidence, aS having to do with the clothing trade, I am of opinion that what are commonly called anti-semitic methods or ■Jew baiting, and the boycotting of any aliens are objec- tionable. 15160. We have not any question before us of anti- semitic methods or boycotting. The question we are in quiring into is what effect the Jarge influx of aliens and foreigners from abroad in a poor state has upon the industries and trade of the country. That is the point we are inquiring into ?—The suggestions I am about to niake in the other part of my evidence will show the views I wish respectfully to put before you, 15161. (Chairman.) We cannot have your views on general matters. We want facts ?—Perhaps you will kindly ask questions with regard to the work in' con- nection with disorderly houses, which is the most impor- tant part of my evidence. '15162. (Major Evans Gordon.) Is that in London 1—In London. 15163. In what part of London have you been working in that direction 1—I am at present the agent of the Central South London Free Church Council. 15164. In that connection have you come across any- thing undesirable of a foreign character 1—Yes.. ' -15165. Immorality and so forth 2—Yes. 15166. Kindly tell us what that is.?—I have been '■engaged in initiating probably the largest number of prosecutions of disorderly housekeepers in South London that has ever been known, and during that time my attention has been called to a very large number of cases -where aliens have conducted the houses. In one district especially we had a series of prosecutions, and in one year nearly all the persons who were fined and prosecuted were aliens-—principally Jews, In another district, which is at present under the attention of the police, there is a continuation of the same feature. - " 15167. Whereabouts in London is this 1—That is in the Brixton direction. In regard to Stamford Street espe- cially, which is now absolutely cleared of houses of this description, we have had a very large number of prosecu- tions, in fact the property on both sides of the street !from Waterloo Road to about the middle or cen tre of the street consisted simply of houses of ill-fame. . 15168. That were all in foreign hands, or mostly in foreign hands ?—Mostly in foreign hands, and very largely in the hands of alien tailors. The greater number of the cases, the cases that came under my attention, were persons of this class. I think I might call the attention of the Commission to the fact of the general crime of Lambeth about the time we commenced our work. In the year 1895, in which our work began, Lambeth stood at the head of the Metropolitan District for crime and vice : 2,548 " drunks," and 13,400 other offences were entered on the police registers under the head of charges in that year. 15169. What has that to do with foreigners ?—That has to do with the question of brothels. The question that my work has settled in the minds of those of us who have been engaged in it is that these houses are centres of every possible form of vice and crime. 15170. (Chairman.) You must keep to the foreigners 1 —I am trying to trace it. 15171. Give us the number of foreign convictions in Lambeth ?—I have not been able to ascertain the whole of the foreign criminals in Lambeth, because these people have gone under so many aliases that in our district it has been almost impossible to trace them. A very large number of them have been going under two or three and in some cases as many as six aliases. 15172. What is the result of the figures you have got ?— The result of my own observation is that at the present time we are confronted with the fact that the immorality has been perpetuated to a very large extent by the alien element, and that may especially be said with regard to Brixton. The alien element there is a very serious feature. I was in the Lambeth Police Court during the last week, when a case was brought before the attention of the magistrate in which a boy was charged with using filthy language to a'prostitute, and it was stated that these foreign women who frequent Brixton are in the habit of paying blackmail to boys in order to enable them to solicit with impunity, and the result is the streets are full at the present time of mainly foreign women, some of them French, some of them Germans, some Poles, and some of other nationalities —Italians, Greeks. I have had to do with aliens of all nationalities in the prosecutions which I have initiated. 15173. (Major Evans Gordon.) You say on the whole summing-up what you say, these foreign houses of ill- fame, and foreign prostitutes are extremely prevalent in those parts of London with which you deal ?—Not so prevalent as they were when our work began. 15174., You have cleared out many 1—400 house8 have been closed. 15175. Have you moved them on elsewhere, merely transferred them to another part, or got rid of them altogether 2—I wish to call to the attention of the Com- mission that in the year after the Vagrancy Act came into operation there were 35 bullies known to have left Stam- ford Street in one week. They were mainly living on the prostitution of women, but after the Act came into operation they were afraid of being hauled up and they left. 15176. Have they come back again 1—The Act has been efficacious, but, as Mr. Dickinson said, the Act has failed in one respect, that the women are unwilling to give evidence against the men with whom they live. 15177. Afraid to prosecute ?—Yes. 15178. What would you suggest as a remedy for this thing—the deportation of these people or what ?—The suggestions I have to make are these, first, that brothel- keeping, which is now merely a misdemeanor in law, should be classified under the head of crime, and that penalties should be increased. 15179. (Chairman.) That is general. That refers to natives as well ?—That refers to natives as well, but it refers very largely to the aliens. 15180. (Major Evans Gordon.) Because it would keep /them away if they were more severely dealt with h— If they were more severely dealt with. The penalties are not enough. Secondly, that either the Berthillon system or some other effective system should be adopted for identifying brothel-keepers of all classes, even if this necessitated portraits. With regard to this matter 'there is a great defect in the police system at present ofMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 527 identifying brothel-keepers, especially aliens. They go under false names, and there is no method of identifying persons who have been previously charged, and many escape although charged a second and third time. They escape without the full penalty. My recommendation would be that there should be a better system of identi- fying brothel-keepers of all classes, if this necessitated portraits. A similar system might be adopted with regard to that which is now carried on with regard to the black list for inebriates on the Berthillon system. 15181. (Mr. Norman.) The finger prints 1—That is the Berthillon system. 15182. {Major Evans Gordon.) Berthillon uses it 1— Yes. Thirdly, that a better system of tracing convictions against aliens who have been criminals in their own country should be established. I may say that in many of these cases the men have been criminals. The aliens have been proved to be criminals in their own country, and the statement has been made by the police ; but from my inquiries I find that there is a somewhat defective system so that the previous history of the alien criminals not always got at .correctly. 15183. How do you know they are criminals until they have, been proved to be so ?—In some cases we have had prosecutions where they have been proved to have been criminals in their own country. 15184. And have come over here —And have come over here in a number of cases. My fourth suggestion is that foreign prostitutes should be repatriated. I quite agree with Mr. Coote's recommendation in that matter, as being a very important matter with regard to alien inrniijgration. My last suggestion is that all male aliens having the guardianship, or control of young girls should be subject to police supervision to prove that their charges are legitimately employed. I think a clause should be introduced into the Vagrancy Act which would deal with that question. 15185. (Mr. Norman.) When you spoke of Yorkshire just now you said that aliens are not employed so much in sweating dens as they were. That implies, of course, that they are still to some extent employed in sweating dens In Leeds they are employed largely. 15186. In what you call sweating dens h—It is the name they have. 15187. They are still being so employed I think so, 15188. I am not sure whether you said it or not, but are aliens increasing in number in the tailoring trade in the district you know ?—I gave the figures which showed that they had increased very much since 1896. 15189. With the consequence of course, that the British workman is, to a considerable extent, being ousted by them 1—The British workman is not employed much in the clothing trade, not the general trade, but mainly in the bespoke tailoring.trade. 15190. The British workman is being ousted by them ? —No, because the British workman has never volunteered to take it up, or comparatively little. The English tailor has; never taken to the clothing trade. 15191. We have had evidence, I think, to show that there has been considerable decrease in the number of British workmen employed in the tailoring trade. Is not that so in the districts you know ?—That cannot, I think, be said, with regard to the wholesale trade. It applies to the bespoke trade. 15192. You said that alien tailors were an advantage to the trade. If you did not put it in that way it followed from your evidence 1—I think that the history of the country proves that skilled labour has been an advantage, but not unskilled. I should say that unskilled labour has been a penalty to a large, extent upon the country for permitting it to the extent that it is being admitted at present. 15193. The bulk of the incoming aliens are not skilled,, of course, in the trade, are they 1—I should say that a large number of them are not skilled. 15194. If these alien tailors are an advantage to the trade, I gather from something else you said that they are not an advantage to the community, because you said alien tailors very largely support those houses of infamy that you describe 1—Quite so. 15195. Therefore we may put it that the tailoring trade, so far as it employs aliens, is profiting at the expense! of the community ?—Of course, I spoke in my evidence as to houses of infamy with regard to South London only. 15196. I ask you of what, comes under your owni personal knowledge ?—The persons who have . been , convicted under my observation have not been of necessity in the clothing trade. Many of them have been in other trades. 15197. You said these houses in Lambeth were largely supported or possibly even managed by alien tailors %— Some of them. I mentioned one special street. 15198. Therefore I say, if the trade profits by the immigration of these people and their presence, the community suffers 2—Of course, so far as these special cases are concerned it would be so. 15199. If this work to which you devote yourself as a matter of philanthropy were to cease, the evils consequents on unrestricted immigration would return, would they not 1—Possibly. 15200. You have pointed out to us a great decrease in certain evils that has followed your own voluntary work in your districts %—The work of my Council. 15201. If this voluntary good work were to cease,, suppose your Councilwere to suspend itself to-morrow and you were to cease your efforts, do you believe this state of things would gradually return h—I do with the present state of the law. It is unquestionable. 15202. Therefore it is only the private initiative of good men which stands between the community as the law is to-day and the return of these most abominable evils 1—As things have been that is so. (Chairman.) That terminates the witnesses for to-day, and terminates the case against the immigrants. Mr. J. 0. Bairstow. 9 Mar. 1903 THIETY-EIITH DAY. Thursday, 12th March 1903. present : The Rt. Hon. Lord James op Hereford (Chairman). The Rt. Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. Henry Norman, Esq., m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. L. L. Cohen, called in ; and Examined. 15205. And on the Committee of the Stock Exchange ? j^r ^ L —Iain. Gohen. ' 15204. And you are a member of the Stock Exchange? 15206. You are not engaged] in any business transac- M~T1cK)3 —I am. tions?—No; none. * 15203. (Lord Bothschild.) You are President of the Jewish Board of Guardians 1—I am.528 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. L, X, Cohen. L2 Mar. im 15207. You devote the whole of your time to the work of the Committee of the Stock Exchange and to charit- able purposes, with the exception, of a. few director- ships ?—One directorship. 15208. You are ail Englishman ?—I am. 15209. Like your father and grandfather, I think?— And great-grandfather. 15210. You have been President of the Jewish Board of Guardians for some years ?—Yes ; since June, 1900. 15211. In succession to your uncle and to your father ? -—That is so. 15212. Your father was one of the founders of the Jewish Board of Guardians ?•—He was. 15213. That institution was formed some years ago ? —In 1859. 15214. To take the place, I think, of the indiscrimi- nate form® of charity which existed previous to that year?—I believe that is so recorded in the history of the Board. My recollection does not go so far1 back. 15215. {Chairman.) Who supports it—who finds the funds?—The Jewish community. 15216. (Lord Bothschild.) Before giving the specific •evidence you have come to< give, perhaps it would be as well if you described to the Commission the general •action of the Board of Guardians without going into too many details ; what are the funds at their disposal and what they do for the community. That may help to dispel some illusions?—The funds, they have at their disposal are given in their annual report. The amount of funded property is about £68,000, of which the income is available for general purposes. They also administer a large number of trusts1, which it would take too long for me to read. 15217. (Chairman.) Give us the amount at their disposal?—Income or capital? 15218. Give u® both, shortly ?—We have, for the pur- poses of a loan fund, a bequest from the Baroness de Hirsch, the actual amount of which was originally £120,000, but, owing to- the French and Austrian estate duties, the actual amount received by the Board was £92,000. The income of that fund is to be applied solely to the purposes of the Loan Committee, to be lent in Ifoans. 15219. (Lord Bothschild.) These loans are lent without interest?—'Yes. 15220. {Chairman.) What would the annual income from that be ?—The annual income from that is about £2,900. Then we have various trust funds for appren- ticing purposes, the total amount of which is £3,825. 15221. Is that capital?1—Capital value, and the in- come of tfria/o is about £140. Then we have small funds •available for emigration purposes!—about £3,300—the income available is about £40. Then we have various other small funds. 15222. The general fund for helping the poor is, how much?—The general fund is £68,000. 15223. What is your yearly sum for relief from all sources—for relief of poverty ?—The amount distri- buted in relief in 1902 was £14,747 16s. Id. 15224. From what source does that come?—Thaft •comes from the community. 15225. By annual subscription ?—By donations and subscriptions. 15226. (Lord Bothschild.) You receive so much from the synagogues?—-We receive from the Synagogue £1,265 a year. 15227. (Chairman.) In addition?—No; that is in- cluded. The amount I gave at first—£14,000—was the amount i 15228. It came from donations and subscriptions, and, I suppose, the income ?—Yes. From investments and rentals, £2,266 ; from the United Synagogue, £1,273 ; from .the West London Synagogue of British Jews, £100 ; from the Federation of Synagogues, £44 ; from the East End society, which makes weekly collections, £175. 15229. (Lord Bothschild.) That is from the poor them- selves ?—From persons living in the East End. Th/< . lowest 'subscription is Id. a week. The subscrirvtions amount to £1,895 ; donations, £9,727. Then we have received money for .special purposes. .....15250. Are these donations exceptionally large for that year f—No, they, were lees that year than the year before, but one year is rather misleading, because some people who pay in January may have paid the preceding year in December. Then we receive sums for specified purposes to be given to special cases. These amounted last year to £4,146. 15231. {Chairman.) What sort of things?—I,f a family has applied to a benevolent person, desirous to be emi- grated, the donor would make a grant for that purpose. 15232. And use your agency for that purpose ?—Yes. 15253. {Lord Bothschild.) You act lil^e the Charity Organisation Society. If there is a deserving case and your funds are not sufficient, you apply to private people to help?—We do. 15234. Speaking generally, have you compared the number of people you relieve—the percentage of the Jewish community with the numbers who receive poor law relief, in England ?—I have it in my paper. 15235. {Chairman.) Before you make the comparison will you give us the fact. How many did you relieve in 1902?—All the financial statements I have given are for the year 1902. 15236. Now give us the number relieved ?—Of foreigners, or all cases? 15237. Perhaps Lord Rothschild would wish you to give all cases, but the foreigners are more important to us?—The total numiber of cases relieved during 1902 was 4,806 cases, that is exclusive of the loan and indus- t rial d epartm en'ts. 15238. That is poverty relieved ?—Yes. 15239. Can you differentiate between London and the provinces ?-^-We only relieve cases in London. I think I state that in my paper. 15240. Now, speaking of the 4,806, do those represent cases or individuals ?—Those are cases. 15241. How many individuals does that- represent ?— 17,790. 15242. All in London ?—-All cases that applied to us in London, and that had not been to the provinces. 15243. Now, can you differentiate between native born and aliens ?—Yes, the number of (foreigners resi- dent here seven years and upwards included in that total was 2,227, the number of foreigners resident here less than seven years 2,029. Of those foreigners, 380 arrived during the year. 15244. Of those 380, have you any particulars of nationality ?—301 were Russians and Poles, 40 Germans and Austrians, 3 Dutch, 30 Roumanians, and 6 other nationalities. 15245. Six various ?—Yes. 15246. (Lord Bothschild.) There is only one other general question I wish to ask you which will interest the Commission very much. You have a. considerable department for the apprenticing of boys, and girls?— Yes, we have; I have given the figures for 1901 in this paper. 15247. We will go through the paper. The evidence you wish to offer relates only to poor Jewish aliens who have been dealt with by the Jewish Board of Guardians and who have applied to them for assistance during the last seven yeare, and to them alone?—That is so. 15248. You have no record and no statistics of Jewish aliens who do not apply for help?—No, that is so. We have no record. 15249. You have incorporated in your tables the cases of those Russian Jews, victims of the restrictive laws imposed upon them in Russia and elsewhere, which have been dealt with by a joint committee of the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewisli Committee from a fund raised bv the community in 1891, with which was incorporated the balance of the Mansion House Fund of 1882 ?—That is so. 15250. The Jewish Board of Guardians, as you said before, was founded in 1859 to relieve the poverty and ameliorate the condition of the Jewish poor?1_Yes. 15251. Could you conscientiously say that the Jewish Board of Guardians has fulfilled to a great extent the objects for which it was founded?—I think it has cer- tainly, because it is alleged that there has been a con- tinuous annual influx of foreigners here, and. the figures which I have given for the eight years that I have dealt with, show that there has (been no corresponding in- crease in the .number of pauper aliens who have appliedMINUTES tF EVIDENCE. 529 or who remain on the books of the Board at the end of "that period. 15252. (Chairman.) Where axe the figures as regards the eight years ?—That is Table LXXX. 15253. Where do you get the foreigners arrived during the year ?—We are dealing here with our own cases —only cases (that apply to us—new cases of foreigners relieved by the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewish Conjoint Committee during the years 1895 to 1902. I have tabulated there the description of oases of foreigners >as they apply. (Lord Bothschild.) The applications for relief have to be mad© in person to an official of the institution. 15254. (Mr. Lyttdton.) " Incorporated in the tables are the cases of the Russian Jews." How is that, because that is in 1891. I thought you were only deal- ing with the last seven years ?—That is correct. I am only referring to that period in that paragraph when the Russo-Jewish Committee began to co-operate with the Board, which was in 1891. I have only given the figures for eight years. 15255. (Lord Bothschild.) The applications for relief have to be made in person to an official of the Board ?— That i® so. ' 15256. Every case is investigated by another official? -—That is so. 15257. You grant no relief unless the person has been in residence for six months?—We do not relieve foreigners if they have not been here more than six months, with, this exception- 15258. That is a very important question, because it lias been stated here over and over again that the im- migrants that arrive have applied to the board of guar- dians and got relief, and you say it is a rule that they do not get any relief unless they have been here six months?—>With this qualification; if they apply to be returned home we do return them home, because we think that if they are in distress it is better that they .should be- got rid of than remain here. That is the only (exception to the rule. 15259. Is it practically safe to state that all neces- sitous foreigner's who .are Jews .are dealt with by the Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewish Committee ? —With the exception of the soup kitchen. I might perhaps make a slight exception to what I have said, that I believe a few cases are dealt with bv the Dutch Benevolent Society and by the Austro-Hungarian Bene- ficent Association ; but they are very few, and do not affect the totals. 15260. What do you mean by the expression " new cases " ?—Case® that have applied to the board for the first time, but not necessarily new arrivals, 15261. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The first application r— Yes. 15262. (Lord Bothschild.) Perhaps it would be more convenient if I iasked you to explain Table LXXX. and the nationalities of the cases?—I begin with the year 1895, because, as I have stated in this paper, in 1894 re- ports were issued by the Board of Trade which gave full .statistics for the previous years, land which had been de- rived from the Board of Guardians; and from the reports of the Ruisso-Jewish Committee. Table LXXX. gives the new cases of foreigners relieved by the Jewish Board of Guardians and the. Russo-Jewish Conjoint Committee during the years 1895 to 1902. Do you wish me to read that Table ? (See Appendix 80.) 15263. (Chairman.) You show in the Table the num- ber of foreigners arrived and relieved during the years from 1896 to 1902 ?—Yes. 15264. Then in the next column you give foreigners resident less than seven years who have arrived previ- ously to the year ?—Yes. 15265. And then foreigners who have been here up- wards of seven years ?—Yes. 15266. Does that total of 2,970 include the 380 of 1902 ?—No, I must explain ; I banded' this evidence in last May when I was summoned, and it is a little out of date in that respect. 15267. Only as regards that year ?—There are 380 to be added on. v 15268. That makes 3,350 the aggregate of the eight years, of foreigners arrived during the year ?—Yes, who made application in the ye&r of their arrival 6344 15269. 8,512 would be foreigners resident here less Mr. L. L than seven years, but arrived in the years previously? Cohen. —Yes" , , 12 MarT 1903. 15270. And 2,835 would be foreigners relieved who. - have been here upwards of seven years ?—That is so; and Russians, which would be 3,282. 15271. Of those, Russians were 3,282 ?—Those are in addition to the others, because those are cases dealt with by the Russo-Jewish Committee. 15272. Is there a special Russian Committee?1—A Russo-Jewish Conjoint Committee. 15273. You give below a table which shows the annual average?—Yes, but they will not be correct now. 15274. Because of the addition of 1902 ?—Yes. 15275. I only want the fact that you have given the averages ?—Yes. 15276. (Lord Bothschild.) The first column shows the number of new arrivals who apply in the year of tbeir arrival, does not it ?—1That is so. 15277. Could you give any explanation of that faigby.)JWh.aA, brought that to an . end ?—-I think the measures which the Board of Guardians took partly brought it to an end, because the movement from Roumania ha® gone on on an increasing scale while the numbers that arrive here have 3 X531> £0YAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I Mr. L. L. diminished. I have got some figures which will ex- Cohen. plain that. 19 15293. {Chairman.) What step® did the Board of ar* " Guardians take?—-I wrote a memorandum which was published in the Jewish papersi here, and abroad, also * which I sent to the Jewish Colonisation Society, who were conducting emigration from Roumania, that it was very undesirable under the conditions which prevail here that Roumanians should come here, even as trans- migrants, and I think that contributed in a great measure to their ceasing to come here. I pointed out it was unnecessary for transmigrants to come to London; they could go to north European ports and go direct from there to Canada, New York, and the prin- cipal places they wished to go to. 15294. You do not relievo transmigrants because you do not relieve for six months ?—No, that is so. 15295. You just now stated that the Jewish Colonisa- tion Society were arranging for emigration from Rou- mania. Who are those persons, and for what purpose do they arrange it?—They are the Council that ad- minister the sums) left by Baron De Hirsch, partly left and partly given in his lifetime, to relieve persecuted Jews by improvements in the country itself and by emigration. 15296. Do they arrange immigration into England ?-- No. Only torn the country in which the persecution is taking place to colonies or to> Argentina. . 15297. To known localities ?—Yes-. Before you go further, may I give you some figures which show what I have just said, that the Roumanians have left Roumania in increasing numbers direct for New York, while they .have sihown a diminished number in our returns. In 1901, between January and December, 4,684 Rou- manians arrived in New York. From January to December, 1902, 8,211 Roumanians arrived in New York. I have not the figures for other ports. There fore you see there has been an increase of nearly double. : Of course, as regards the cases I refer to that have come here and been sent on, a few of these may be included in these totals, but they do not affect the argument. ... 15298. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where do you get these figures from?—I will vouch for them, but I would rather not say where I got them from. 15299. They interest me, because I have been collect- ing ^similar figures ?—I will tell you afterwards. I do not know whether the figures of Russians interest you. 15300. {Chairman.) I think so?—The figures for Russians for the corresponding period were in the first year, 1901, 21,050, and in the second year 30,928. 15301. (Mr. Lyiielton.) New York ?—New York only. 15302. (Lord BothscMld.) Now we will go back to the other point. I think I was asking you about the state the immigrants arrive in. Could you conscientiously say from the fact that they do not apply to you f >i relief during the first six months of their arrival here, that they are possessed of some means when they arrive jhere, and should not actually be classed as paupers?— I should say a large proportion of them have some means, as is shown by the figures that the numbers^ who apply in the first year of their arrival are comparatively small compared with the numbers who apply after they have been here a year. 15303. The number who apply after they have been here some time is—I will not say a ^steady increase— but varies with the proportion of alien population or Jewish population in the East End ?—<1 should ®ay so. 15304. Can you ascribe any cause for their becoming paupers or being in a state of poverty after they have been here some time ?—I do not find it unnatural when people have arrived in a strange place that they should require a little assistance after they have been, here a short time, to put them on their legs. That that assistance is successful is shown, :as I have said before, by the figures in the third column. 15305. The assistance that you give differs consider- ably from the assistance given by the. official poor law. Your assistance is generally of a much more substantial character ?—We take a more paternal interest in the cases, I should say, than the general poor l'aw. 15306. It is not assistance to prevent them from starving, but it is assistance to enable them to rise in social life?—-That is so. And then we watch over the* eases by a system of honorary visitors, and in that way we hope to improve the casee. 15307. (Chairman.) You used the term just now, in answer to Lord Rothschild, that, the object was to put them on thedr legs, yet you do not begin that operation for six months after their arrival ?—No, because we do not want to encourage arrivals here. If every foreigner thought he could come to the Board of Guardians- for assistance we should have a much larger number to> deal with possibly. 15308. Have you no heed of the/m during the first six months ?—'We do not take on cases. 15309. You do not give them any relief ?—No; if a case applies to be assisted, the first inquiry is, " How long have you been here? " If he has not been here six months we do not take him on, except to return home. 15310. He has lived somehow during those six months ? —Yes, upon that I found the view that they come her© with something. 15311. Perhaps you would not know whether they do go to the local Board of Guardians* or not ?-—I have cited the figures here of the Whitechapel Union for 1900. 15312. (Lord Kothschild.) There is only one other ques- tion I wish to ask you about the new arrivals. Have you f ormed any opinion as to their working capabilities when they arrive ? It has been often said here that they arei complete greeners, and have no knowledge of skilled labour. Can you on this point inform the Commission what ypur general view is of the alien immigrants who arrive ?—I should say that they are not skilled labourers in the sense in which the term is used here, but that many of them have had employment in their own country is unquestionable, and they are very quick to learn j 15313. Do you think any of them, before they come here, have been employed in similar trades to those which they take up here ? Are any of them boot or shoe makers in their own country, or tailors, or do they learn those trades on arrival here?—A good many of them describe themselves as bootmakers. We give the figures in our reports of the trades of the applicants, and that includes the new applicants as well as the old. Table 5 in our reports gives the classification of trades and occu- pations of ordinary recipients of relief during 1902 and the previous three years. It is rather a long list to read. 15314. You had better give it?—In 1902 there are: Bakers, 35; barbers and hairdressers, 15; boot trade, 600; butchers, 6; charwomen and servants, 118; fur- riers, 32; general dealers and shopkeepers, ' 214; glaziers, 31; hat and cap makers, 74; hawkers and costermongers, 363; metal working trades, 32; nurses, 20.; painters and paperhangers, 32 ; tailoring and cloth- ing trades, 825; teachers and Hebrew writers, 35; kxbacoo trades, 93; watchmakers and jewellers', 18; wood-working trades1., 163; miscellaneous, 118. ' Thc> trades of 634 'applicants could either not be ascertained or such applicants, comprising chiefly women and old men, had no occupations. 15315. You would say in all probability these aliens had followed those trades in their own' country ?—I would not go so far as that. I give the information for what* it is worth. 15316. (Chairman.) You get it from them?—Yes. 15317. You cannot test the degree of their know- ledge !•—No. 15318. (Lord Hothschild.) In the next table you give the statistics of poor aliens who have been emigrated and repatriated by the Board and the Russo-Jewish Committee. The Board has been engaged in the work of emigration since its foundation, and has transferred to America and the Colonies large numbers of alien Jews. There has been a restriction, has not there, on the number you have sent to New York lately ?—There has been, but it is very small—a very slight restriction. We agreed with the United Hebrew Charities in New York that we would not send some cases about which we had doubts, without first enquiring of New York whether the relatives of, the cases were in a position to support the family which we contemplated sending over, but we found that there has been considerable delay in getting replies, .and that the New York people often take a different view to what we take ourselves, so in this year we have given notice to New York that we have modified that attitude. 15319. Who are the foreigners you help to repatriate ? —The foreigners we help to repatriate are people whom we think never ought to have come here. They have no relations, and they have no particular prospects ofxviiNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 631 succeeding hero,. >and also such foreigners who have come oyer here, and who have unfortunately broken down in health, or have failed to get on. 15320. You always exact from those you help a con- tribution from themselves ?—We do. For a. great many years we have exacted .am amount of 15s., but since 1900 we wished to take further measures to stop the im- migration, and we raised the minimum that we exacted to 20s., and the maximum to 30s. 15321. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Annually, do you mean?— No, towards the cost of the fare of each returning person. 15322. (Lord Rothschild.) You have an arrangement at Hamburg for the repatriation cases ?:—We have a German merchant whom I think Major Ev-ans Gordon refers to in, his book. 15323. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Mr. Samson ?—Mr. Samson. He looks after them gratuitously. He makes guch arrangements with the German police that they permit them to remain there. 15324. (Chairman.) Is he your agent?—He is our honorary agent. , 15325. (Lord Rothschild.) Are there any special points in Table LXXXI. to which you wish to call the attention of the Commission —-No, but I think the figures are very striking, showing that each year we have dispersed a •very large number of cases, and if we reckon three per- sons as a fair average for each case we shall have dis- persed during the period 28,000 souls which must have mitigalted the consequences of the influx whatever those consequences have been during that time. That is, taking three persons to a case which I think is a fair average. 15326. Would, you be of opinion that your figures dispel the illusion that the number of aliens here is greater than the Census shows ?—-I have only dealt with poor aliens. 15327. You cannot tell those who do not come before you ?—If only poor aliens are being enquired into I should have thought there was no subject for inquiry, fteoause the number of poor aliens that apply to us does not show any increase at all. 15328. (Chairman.) When you so emigrate, are they principally to America?—Of the 10,152 cases moved out of England, 2,220 were emigrated in 1900, some to America, some to South Africa, and some to Canada, but the bulk" to America and Canada. 15329. To Baroness Hirsch's colonies ?—No, they were sent anywhere. 15330. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Those are independent of ^repatriations ?—-Yes. Repatriations during the period of eight years were 7,569. 15331. (Chairman.) Cases ocr individuals ?-—Oases. 15332. (Lord Rothschild.) I think you stated that the Russian oases that have fled from persecution are not kept waiting six months, but they are repatriated or emigrated at once?—-Just so. 15333. Now, in Table LXXXII., which is the next table;, I think you give an account of the cases which have been added to your register, that is to say the number of paupers that have increased ?—Table LXXXII. gives the number of new cases of foreigners added each year to the register, that is to say, in 1895, 835 such cases were added; in 1896, 723; in 1897, 605; in 1898, 836; in 1899, 793; in 1900, 1,034 ; and in 1001, 1,102. That is a total during that period of 5,928 cases. 15334. {Chairman.) As you added new cases you were losing old ones ?—I, proceed to say notwithstanding, during that period, 5,928 new cases were added, the number of old cases had not increased. 15335. The number of total cases you mean ?—'That is so. ? 15336. (Lord Rothschild.) Before you come to Table LXXXIII. I wish to- ask you another question. When you state cases were added to the list, is it the fact or not that very few people come for relief a. second time after they have been put on their legs by the Bo&rd of Gnardiansi.?—That is so. ' 15337. Although the man's name may remain on the register, after they are once really looked after they move into a higher sphere?—Yes. Of course, there are a certain number of chronic cases of people who break down in life. 15338. (Chairman.) Habitual casses?—Yes. 6144 15339. (Lord Rothschild.) But the general rule is, once Mr. L. L. you have substantially relieved them, they cease to be Cohen. paupers?—That is so, asrQgards mew cases. 12 Mar~1903 15340. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Do you relieve in a lump ——— sum ?—We do*, or to be spread over a period. 15341. (Lord Rothschild.) Now, will you kindly ex- plain Table LXXXIII. ?—Table LXXXIII. gives a great many cases which have' appeared in the; preceding tables^ but it also .gives the. number of oases of foreigners1 who have applied for relief, and their names have been taken on the books, but, lafter investigation, have been re- jected. Although a case may be rejected one year, be- cause in the instance the assistance which is offered to it is only to return home, the applicant may be unwilling to go, yet he very likely would ,appear the next- year and accept the offer, so< that they are recurrent. When I summed up the result of Table LXXXII., showing that 5,928 new cases bad been added to the register, I was going on to point to Table LXXXIII.., which showed that the number of cases of foreigners relieved as old cases in 1901, was 2,325 cases out of a total of 4,551 cases, while in 1895 the corresponding figures for old cases were 2,829 :aind 4,270. If you deduct column 3, new cases assisted by th^e Board, of Guardians, 2,226, from the totals oif column 1, new and old cases assisted by the Board of Guardians 4,551, the net result is the number of old cases assisted by the Board in 1901, I have given the references in the paragraph on -page 7. (See Ap- pendix Table LXXXIII.) 15342. (Chairmcm.) The new cases in 1901 are 2,226? —Yes. 15343. New and old-4,551?—Yes. 15344. And deducting one from the other, you get the number of old cases ?—That is so. 15345. (Mr. Vallance.) What you are seeking to show is, notwithstanding this movement of emigration, the actual number of old cases on your books in 1901 is 500 less than iii 1895?—Quite so. 15346. (Chairman.) We ought to have 1902 in this table if you have got it?—I did not work that out, but I can have it sent in. 15347. (Lord Rothschild.) You say that if the influx of aliens 'had increased the pauperism amongst the Jews in the East End, the number of new and old case® of natives would be larger ?—Should have been larger. 15348. They have not varied at all, have they ?—No, the number of foreigners who have settled here who have been resident here seven years and upwards hardly shows any variation. 15349. (Chairmcm.) You must limit that to thoise who make application to you?—Yes, that governs prac- tically all my observations. 15350. (Lord Rothschild.) In 1895 the number of new a;nd old cases was 524?—That was native cases. 15351. In 1901 they were only 510?—Yes. 15352. The annual average of new cases of natives during the period is under 100 ?—Yes. 15353. Now you say there is another direction in which evidence is forthcoming?—May I interrupt you a moment ? I only want to point out that why I alluded to native cases was; that it has been alleged that the influx of foreigners has had a baneful effect on the other poor already here. If that were so, then there would have been an increase in the number of native Jews applying to the Board. Therefore I have given the figures for a, few years to show there has been prac- tically no variation over a period of years. 15354. (Chairman.) Your six months' rule cannot apply to natives, of course?—No. 15355. Do you, put yourself in the position of taking the place of the natural Board of Guardians to the native residents ?—Our desire is to prevent Jews having to go to the workhouse. 15356. Do you substitute your action for that of the naitural Board of Guardians?—In carrying out that policy we do to some extent. 15357. Do you think you almost entirely relieve the English Board of Guardians from supporting the poor Jew ?-—I understand figures have been applied for. I should not like to give an opinion until they are pro- duced. Of course, they will ishow conclusively how far as regards London we have been successful. 15358. That is your object at any rate?—Yes. 15359. And you strive to- accomplish it?—Yes, we do. 3x2532 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. L. L. 15360. Your numbers as@ very few?—Our numbers Cohen. have been about 500 in. eack year. 12 MarTl.903 15361. {Lord Rothschild.) You isay there is another —•' ■ ■ '' direction in which evidence is forthcoming that in one district in which the foreign Jew® have settled they have not increased the number of paupers. In 1882 the ratio of paupers per 1,000 of population in. the Whitechapel Union was 25*4, whilst in 1901 the ratio had fallen -to 23-2. 1882 is generally accepted as the year in which the influx of Russians and Poles began, and it is significant that at the end of 20 years there has been a reduction in the pauperism of this district? —-Yes. 15362. (Chairman.) You state in these figures there has been a diminution! in the relief given to the English Jews in those districts. Have you any know- ledge whether the English Jew has been driven out of those districts by the foreign immigrant?—No, I do not say "English Jew," I say the whole pauper population. 15363. Then my observation is stronger. Have you any knowledge whether the poor persons of that; dis- trict have been driven out by the alien immigrant f— No, I have no knowledge of that kind. That state- ment is intended to deny the statement, that the arrival of these foreign Jews has caused an increase in the rates in the district. I cannot give you any informa- tion as to the effect upon other people in the district. 15364. Of course, if the percentage of British popu- lation has generally diminished, you would expect equal reduction iri the persons relieved?—I quite see that. 15365. (Lord Rothschild.) You have further confirma- tion of the small numbers compared with the totals in the preceding tables of poor Jewish immigrant re- cipients of charity remaining at the end of a year, and the low proportion which they bear to the total amount of foreign arrivals, added to the population in the year. Do you say in 1900 you and the Russo-Jewish Com- mittee relieved 1,590 cases, representing 2,757 souls?— That is so. 15366. And of the above you repatriated and emi- grated 1,307 cases, representing 1,966 souls?—That is so. 15367. (Chairman.) You just now have taken a sug- gested figure of three persons to each case ?—Yes. 15368. How is it you get here 2,700 and 1,600?—I can only suggest with reference to cases that are re- patriated, a good many of them are single men ; that is to say, they may be married men, but they have come over and left their families behind. 15369. These are the people relieved ?—I do not ask you to accept my figure that three persons is a fair percentage. 15370. I should have thought yoa were about right, but this seems to contradict it ?—I did not give the number of persons intentionally, &s> I had not any reliable statistics. 15371. I thought your estimate was very fair, but this seems to contradict the estimate ?—I am afraid I cannot explain that. 15372. (Lord Rothschild.) You assert that 283 cases, representing 791 soiule, left as new arrivals who had obtained relief and remained here at the end of the year, contrasts with the 14,000 aliens stated by the Board of Trade to have been added to the population, and therefore, making due allowance for other towns, the numlber of poor aliens at the close of the year, in which there had been a large influx, was very unim- portant?—I't strikes me as being so. The point I endeavour to make plain is this, that the figures show 283 cases of poor aliens remaining: here at the end of the year, these cases representing 791 souls. 15373. (Chairman.) That is taking 1,307 from 1,590?—Yes. The Board of Trade returns show that 13.000 foreigners were the balance in on the year—the balance of foreigners who are supposed to have remained here. My contention is, if these gures are correct, the number of pauper aliens, 283 cases, repre- senting 791 isouls, is a quantite negligeable. It is quite insignificant. Those figures I have given do not take into account poor foreigners who may have been relieved in the provinces ; but I believe those are very few. 15374. You do not relieve for six months?—No.. 15375. And during that six months the man may get upon his legs, and he may turn round and find some support, but he may have been a very poor immigrant when he arrived ?—Yes, but this paragraph is intended to refute the charge that the country is being deluged with poor aliens. 15376. You must allow for the six months interval ? —I do not know whether that would materially affect it., 15377. (Mr. Lyttelton.) We have had a good deal of evidence that their power of getting on their legs is very great, and although for two or three months they live in the greatest possible poverty, yet they soon begin, by their ability, to make headway?—It would not affect the contention here which is that at the end of a giveji year there has not been a large addition to the poor alien population. 15378. (Chairman.) But for six months you are not touching them ?—Mr. Lyttelton has just said that at the end of two months they cease to be poor. They are not poor aliens if they have got upon their legs at that time. 15379. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) During the six months: they are neither relieved by you nor'have they come on the rates ?—No. 15380. (Lord 'Rothschild.) The fact is, when they arrive here they have a certain amount of means of their own ?—Yes, that is so. 15381. {Mr. Lyttelton.) Or their relatives make a supreme? effort for them ?—'That is possible. 15382. [Mr. Norman.) Or they are supported by private charity ?—I have no means of knowing what the private charity is. 15383. (Chairman.) Do you know of any systematic private charity which exists?—No. 15384. (Mr. Norman.) No systematic private charity ? (Chairman.) Not during the six months. 15385. (Lord Rothschild.) You say your committoe does not grant any loans to foreigners?—Unless they have been here a year. 15386. What is the amount of the loan you grant generally 1—The smaller loans are £2 to £5. The larger loans are up to £25, and in exceptional cases up to £100, but, as I have stated, we never grant a loan to a foreigner to start in business, but only as a help in business which has already been begun; and no loan above £25 has ever been granted to a foreigner who has been here less than seven years. 15387. You have given some figures here about the amount and the quality of the Poor Law relief that the aliens receive. Would you mint] explaining that, and also explaining at the same time the reason why the Jewish Dispensary was given up ?—I am afraid I do not know anything about the Jewish Dispensary. 15388. That was before your time?'—Yes. I have stated here that the official figures of the1 Board of Trade for 1900 give the number of aliens relieved by Poor Law administration in London in 1900 as 2,015, and 1 believe that includes medical relief ; of whom 1,100 were stated to be Russians and Poles, mostly Jews, as against 2,895 relieved, of whom 2,305 were Russians or Poles in 1899. I have not been able to obtain the figures for individual unions which make up this total of 1.100 Russians and Poles, mostly Jews, relieved in 1900, but the figures of the Whitechapel Union for that year are: " Medical Relief only, Russia and Russia-Pol'and, 309 ; Austria, 14 ; Dutch, 8. Admitted to infirmary: 70 Russians; 3 Austrians, and 3 Dutch. Admitted to the workhouse: 21 Russians, one Austrian, and one Dutch. Total, 400, 18 and 12 respectively." That is out of 430 foreigners 331 received only medical relief, and 76 were admitted to the infirmary. I have not the figures for any other parish than that one. 15389. Therefore, with the exception of medical relief, you would say the Jewish immigrant claims hardly any parochial relief ?—I should say so. 15390. If you were to summarise your evidence you would show that without the existence of restrictive legislation you have sent out of the country 10.000 oases of foreigners in eight years ?—Yeb. 15391. And also by the system of relief (adopted by your Board, the arrivals during that period have not contributed to swell the volume of pauperism in the Metropolis, neither at the charge of the parishes, nor at that of the Board, as is evidenced in the former case by the Poor Law Returns, and in the latter by the diminution in the number of old cases on its books ? • I should say so.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 533 15392. (Chairman.) Have you seen the Poor Law Beturns you refer to?-—No, I have not seen them. I was referring to these Returns here. 15393. You are referring to the pauperism of the Metropolis, and then you say : " As is evidenced in the former case by the Poor Law Returns," We have not had those Returns yet ?—I meant the Returns for the different parishes, some of which I have seen. 15394. Then, you had better say, " So far as I know " ?—Yes, perhaps I should put in that qualifica- tion, " So far as I know." 15395. (Lord Bothschild.) In addition to the general work of your Board there are two other departments which it might interest the Commission to know -about. You have an Industrial Committee and a Sanitary Com- inittee, have you not ?—Yes. 15396. Would you explain to the Commission what the Industrial Committee has to do, and what the Sanitary Committee has to do?—The Industrial Com- mittee apprentices boys and girls to all branches of different trades, and during 1901 the committee had on its books 676 boys and 43 girls. I do not know the places of birth of the .apprentices, but the majority are children born in England of foreign parents. 15397. You apprentice these boys to various trades, do you not?—Yes; the trades are given in our return. Thej;e are 70 or 80 which I can give if necessary. 15398. (Chairman.) We only want to know how far you. relieve the aliens if you can differentiate?1—I am unable to give the particulars of birth of these appren- tices, but the majority are children born in England of foreign parents. 15309. (Lord Rothschild.) Then, the other branch of your work is the Sanitary branch?—Yes. 15400. Can you explain to the Commission what you have done in the sanitary branch, and what defects you find in the existing laws, and what remedies you would suggest for overcrowding?—Our sanitary department was reorganised in 1884 to deal with the detection and remedy of sanitary defects (including overcrowding and *he illegal occupation of cellar dwellings, as well as defective drains, etc.), and since 1898, with the preven- tion of tuberculosis. The cost to the Board of the work done by this committee was, £243 in 1901. Then I deal rn my statement with sanitary defects. The sanitary inspector visits houses brought to his notice by com- plaints from honorary visitors of the Board, rotas of tlie Board, or district nurses, or from the occupants of houses, or from the Board's salaried staff, and any other houses of which he may hear as containing sanitary defects. He also visits houses in which cases of con- sumption occur, and are brought to the notice of the Board. If he goes to a given house for any of the reasons just mentioned, he will, if he suspects that ad- joining houses are insanitary, visit these also. The inspector' gives notice of defects fcoi owners, except as to a few owners who are known to pay no attention to our notices. But most owners attend to these notices. In air urgent case the inspector will ait once communi - cate with the local authority. In oases of accumulations of refuse he requests the local authority to clear the same away. Where defective fittings, etc., cause waste of water, notice is given by the inspector to the water company. All premises in which defects are discovered are revisited again and again until remedied. If, after the lapse of a reasonable time the defects are not remedied by the owner, the matter is brought to the notice of the local authority either by our inspector com- municating with the inspector of the local authority or by the honorary secretary of the committee writing to the medical officer of health. In the case of dangerous structures, the matter is brought to the notice of the superintending architect of the London County Council. The committee also keeps throughout the districts occu- pied by the Jewish poor, posters urging the necessity for cleanly and orderly habits, and similar leaflets are distributed by the Board to applicants for relief, while notices are posted up to the effect that applicants who appear before the Rota Committee with dirty persons, or whose houses are kept in a dirty condition, will not be relieved while such uncleanliness continues. On special occasions (e.g., when cholera or small-pox is pre- valent) special notices are issued by the committee. Then I deal with consumption. Cases of consumption are brought to the notice of the officers of the Board in the course of the Boards relief work, or by the Board's visitors, or the district purees, or in some cases are detected by the sanitary inspector in the course of his inspections in relation to sanitary defects. All cases in which a person is suffering from phthisis are visited j$r £ ^ by the Board's inspector, who hands to the family of the CoHen. ' patient printed recommendations showing the urgent — necessity of avoiding the dissemination of tuberculosis, 12 Mar. 1903. especially through the medium of dried up sputa. The ~~~ committee furnishes to all households finable to procure these requisites for themselves a spit bottle, spit cup, spittoon, and a suitable supply of disinfectant powder and soap. Where the consumptive patient is found not to occupy a separate bed the Board grants assistance to enable him to sleep by himself. These households are repeatedly visited by the inspector, or the Board's honorary visitors, in order to ensure that the recom- mendations of the committee are carried out. The Board, in suitable cases, obtains in-patient and out- patient letters for hospitals for consumptive patients, and in some cases sends the patient to a convalescent home, and in all cases grants the family such relief as may be required, and as the means at the disposal of the Board permit. 15401. (Chairman.) Do these cases of consumption in any way affect the alien immigrants as distinct from the English Jew? I suppose this part of your statement refers more to the English Jew?1—No ; I think it was suggested the alien immigrant was a more likely subjecb for consumption than anybody else. 15402. I do not think we need go into the details of your treatment ?—Then I will pass over that. In 1901 the total number of visits paid to house© occupied by the Jewish poor by the Board's sanitary inspector was 2,972, and the total number of houses inspected was 1,149. The proportion of the total number of houses inspected in which sanitary defects recognised by the local authority as contraventions of the law were detected,was nearly 58' per cent, in Bethnal Green, about 49 per cent. in Stepney, and 38 per cent, in Westminster. In 341 cases the committee succeeded in securing the remedy of sanitary defects by application to the owners of the property concerned without it being necessary to call in the local authorities. In 33 cases overcrowding—in some cases of a serious character—was discovered in the houses by the inspector. All but one of these cases were remedied before the end of the year; and a number of rooms used as dwelling places in violation of the law relating to cellar dwellings were discovered, and the. removal of the tenants in nearly a.ll these cases success- fully secured. I am unable to say whether these houses, were occupied by aliens or not. I do not know whether you consider the evidence I am now giving is germane to this inquiry ? 15403. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Does your inspector go to other houses?—He only goes to houses which are occu- pied by the Jewish poor, but they are not necessarily aliens. 15404. (Chairman.) You had better go on with your statement ?—At the end of the year 1901 there were on the' register of consumptive cases the names of 107 persons, and during the year 571 visits were paid by members of the Visiting Committee and the inspector to the homes of the consumptive persons. Notwithstanding what has been accomplished by the Sanitary Committee, and the success it has met with, it must be admitted that insanitary conditions are found to exist in many in- stances, and- that overcrowa'mg does prevail, although it may be questioned whether here also there is not con- siderable exaggeration, as in the Census Report (1901} for the County of London, the Registrar-General states, " In the Borough of Stepney, which received between 1891 and 1901 a large number of foreign immigrants, the proportion of one-room tenements did not exceed 21*7 per cent., showing a marked decline fro mthe pro- portion in 1891." Then I go on to deal with the ques- tion which has been raised as to whether fresh powers are required for overcrowding. 15405. Unless anybody wishes it I think we need not have that, because we have; had that evidence from the other independent witnesses P—It was prepared really before the inquiry began. I should like to put in, as bearing upon the Sanitary Committee's work, the third paragraph from the bottom of page 11 of my statement, because a good deal of importance is attached to* that.: " Bearing upon these points, the Sanitary Committee in its last report regrets that in consequence of a decision in the King's Bench Division in May last it is now im- possible to apply to certain classes of grouped tenements the very useful provisions of the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, with respect to houses let in lodgings, and trusts that an amendment of the law will without delay remove this most pernicious exemption from registra- tion and inspection of a class of property which in th<*534 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mi. X. L. district with which the committee ha® to deal requires CoJien. close supervision." 12Mar. 1903. 15406. Just popularly state your view?—They cannot uuspect block dwellings, I believe, in consequence of the decision given in the case of Weatherett v. Cantlay, which is referred to in some of the returns The other part of my statement is rather argumentative. "It must.be observed that if the restriction of alien immigra- tion is found practicable and effective, so far ais regards overcrowding, there will only be an abatement of the evil in districts of the Metropolis frequented by for- eigners, while other districts equally congested will be unaffected, and thus only the fringe of the problem of congestion will have been touched. It is, perhaps, some- what beyond the scope of this evidence to refer to the American laws on immigration, but it should be stated that, the United States only exclude persons likely to become 1 do not say I have not got it, but I have not been able to find it, and if so it is taken from its context. 15428. I have got stars in my copy?—Then that rather modifies it. It does not very much matter, be^ cause I can answer your question. I only want to call attention to the fact that the quotation has not been extracted en bloc' from the report, but there are sentences left out which I think modify the inference you are likely to draw. 15429. (Chairman.) Will you just read what you wish to add?—"It may be as well to record that the Board ^a^p&ed itself to the discharge of its exceptional task %lthou^ departing from its principle of relief. It refused to entertain applications en bloc, but considered each .case on its own merits. It gave no assistance to the emigration of married men who had left their wives and families on the Continent. It only promoted the emigration of such oases as were likely to succeed on arriving at their destination without becoming forth- with claimants for communal or general charity. In all case® where, having regard to all the circumstances, repatriation seemed the most appropriate course, it con- fined its action, to helping applicants to return to their countries. ,And; as far as possible, with the exception of cases of active persecution, it only assisted such applicants to remain in this country as in the main bid fair to make good, their settlement, through the legiti- mate force of their own exertions." I think that has a bearing on what Major Evans-Gordon read. 15430. The important part of this is that you use the wards " Exceptional year/' and that was the Roumanian year ?•—Yes, that is so. 15431. {Major Evans-Gordon.) That is the -noint I wanted to come to. The extract that I have is from page 15. I have only extracted it for my own con- venience, and I do mot want to give any wrong im- pression about what you say here ?—No, I do not say so, but I only say the Commissioners might have drawn an inference from those extracts which the context did not justify, and that being so, I prefer to put in the paragraph I have just read. 15432. My main point is that the Board (I do not think you will question that) in that year, 1900, was making a very, very strong protest or outcry against ■fche tremendous influx that had occurred in that year? ---Of course; I do not deny it, I stated in my pre- liminary remarks that I had issued a circular to the Jewish Colonisation Association 'and other bodies call- ing attention to the desirability of stopping this influx. I do say that those remarks which deal with 1900 were, as Lord James, said, dealing with an exceptional year. 15433. (Chairman.) Major Evans-Gordon said, "lam quoting your wordsi" ?—Yes ; therefore they do not follow from what was siaid in 1894. The remarks in 1894 would only apply to 1900, asi an exceptional year; and they would not apply to 1899 or 1901. 15434. (Major Evans-Got don.) What I want to point out to you with reference to* that is that, of course, we have only got very unsatisfactory and inaccurate returns of these people who arrive in this country; but, for the. purpose of comparison I take the same series of figures each yeasr, that is the Board of Trade Returns for aliens arriving in this country not -said to be en route for other countries, and taking only the port of London, because the others are mostly transmigrants. I take new the figures since 1894. In 1894, when those remarks were made by the Board of Jewish Guardians, which I have quoted, the total number of arrivals in the port of London wa$ 4,381; in 1895, 2,281; in 1896, 9,762; in 1897,12,232; in 1898^ 12,213; in 1899, 14,927; m 1900 (and here we have the exceptional year), 17,939; in 1901 it had fallen again to 15,958; and in 1902 it had risen again to 22,029. Those are the Board of Tirade Betuikg 'for th& immigriantsi not said to be en route for other Countries, and arriving . only in the -port of London. Some of those may go on, but if you take the same figure in each year it shows a very remarkable in- crease. What I wish to point out to you is that in the Mr. L. L. face of the strong protest made by the Jewish Board of Cohen. Guardians in 1900 the figure for last year is some 5,000 -— x higher than it was in that so-called " exceptional year " 1 12 Mar. 1903. —Your figures are the Board of Trade figures. 15435. Yes ?—But that m just my point. My poini is that although there has been aai enormous increase of foreigners it has not been, an increase reflected at the Board of Guardians. 15436. Can you give us the 1902 figures?—Yes. 15437. (Chairman.) Can you account at all for the increase. Take the last year, 1901, and call it 16,000; then in 1902 it is 22,000. Do you know of any excep- tional cause which caused that increased immigration) —No ; I am unable to give it. With all respect those figures are very unreliable. 15438. We will take the Board of Trade figures foi what they are worth. They are said to be not en route, and ®o forth, but have you any knowledge of any causa which can account for this great increase?—No, unless it is the great commercial activity in America which offers improved opportunities for people going there. (Chairman.) Do your figures, Major Gordon, include those en route. {Major Evans-Gordon.) We cannot tell. We havo taken the same each year. If the figures are. inaccurate for one year they are inaccurate for all. (Chairman.) It is not one inaccuracy that I am re- ferring to, but I want to know whether they include those en route. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No; these are not en route, those coming to the port of London. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They are the figures for those " said to be not en route." 15439. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes?—Although they are isiaid not to be en route, everybody knows a great number do go on. 15440. (Chairman.) We quite appreciate that, but the ■same weight of that observation would apply to 1901 a& well as to 1902. You do not know of any external cause to account for the increase of nearly 6,000 ?—No. 15441. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That very large in- crease of arrivals, whether going on or not, has not been reflected in your charitable institutions ?—In the Board of Guardian's figures the istatistics point in the opposite direction. 15442. You say that the aliens who arrive here are possessed in the majority of c^ses of some resources ?-— I infer that they are. 15443. Have you seen the evidence given by Mr. Hawkey, with regard to that ?—I have read the evidence- as it appeared in the Jewish papers, but I cannot carry it in my mind. 15444. I put this question to Mr. Hawkey : "In the first place do you find any of them totally without means ?—A. Oh, yes. Q. Positive paupers or positively impecunious ? A. They represent themselves to be entirely without means, and as having no money. Q. Can you give us any sort of proportion of that number ? A. If I take last year, the year which is ended now, the 31st March, I have here an average for the passengers arriving from Hamburgh, Bremen, and Rotterdam. ^ I have ah average per adult. In making this calculation I take two children as one adult. It is not per head. Q. Man, wife and two children, how is that? A. That is three adults. Per adult I have seen 24*20 marks for the whole year. Q. Per adult? A. That is per adult." Then the Chairman asks : " We have taken evidence of it before. Over what period and what number of persons is that average taken. A. For the class spoken of and pauper aliens, destitute aliens travelling in the steerage,. not for any others. From April, 1901, to March, 1902. Q. That is the last year. A. That is the last year, and for 62 per cent.-—the steerage passengers for that period are 62 per cent, of the total arrivals by those steamers. Q. Does that average represent your whole steerage pas- sengers for that timeP A. Yes. Q. 24*20 per adult; has it increased or decreased of late years? A. For the previous years—I have them for eight years ; I keep extracts by me of the returns* and I forward them to the Board of Trade. The previous year the' average was 21*21; for 1899 the average was more, 25*87, and tiiis year the average was 23-3, and then for the veal before that, it was 21*0, and for the year previous 24*3, and I take the main, average for the eight years, and it amounts to 26 marks, the main average." That is whai he makes it out at—24*20 marks per adult, and he takes536 koyal Commission on alien immigbation : Mr. Ls L. tile average for eight years, of the total amoun i Cohen. possessed by these people whom he examines on arrival 19 M 1QAQ k° he 26 marks. Would you place any reliance on that ' ■' evidence ? A. I should not challenge it in any way. He is, I believe, the gentleman who* meets the boats, but I take a different view perhaps to Mr. Hawkey. I do not consider that a person is necessarily a pauper ' because he arrives here without any money in his pocket. I take the American view. 15445. What I want to get at is this particular point. You say : " It is contended, on the other hand, that the aliens who arrive here are possessed in the majority ot cases of some resources." What do you mean by " some resources" ?—-I call a capacity to work a resource. 15446. You do not mean having money in their pockets?—I have not gone into the details of that. I could not give you any reliable statistics as to what the aliens have in their pockets. When they apply to us the inference is that they have very little or nothing. 15447. They do nob apply to you till they have been here six months ?—That is so, or after a year, because the numbers in the subsequent years show an increase— not the first year. 15448. My point is that supposing Mr. Hawkey to be correct, and 'he told us that they showed willingly what they had, he averages it 26 marks per adult, taking two children as an adult. That would be a very small sum of money, and I want to know how they make out their six months' existence up to the time they come to you t —I cannot tell you. 15449. Your Board refuses assistance except in re- patriation?—Yes, unless they have been here for six months. 15450. How do you know when they apply to you whether they have been here six months or not ?—We make inquiries if we have any doubts. We 'have a system of investigation officers for that and other purposes. 15451. Is that rule with regard to the six months made known among the aliens who arrive in; this country ?—I should think it is very well known. 15452. It is not,regularly made known?—It is well known. 15453. Does this rule prevent their applying for assistance?—That is rather a hpyothetical question. 15454. But do they apply ?—We do refuse cases, cer- tainly. We refuse to take them on ourselves, and they do not figure on our register as any class of case. 15455. Are there not other charitable institutions which might help these people?—Not Jewish charitable institutions. 15456. Is there not a Jewish Federation Society of -Charities?—That is a collection of synagogues. 15457. Do not they distribute money?—I do ft&t think so. 15458. Does not the United Synagogue distribute money?—Not to poor cases except through us. The "United Synagogue contributes to our society £1,273. 15459'. As far as you are concerned these people get -no assistance at all when they arrive 'here?—No. We -do not meet them ; we keep in the background. 15460. Is there not a Jewish, shelter that they go to? —Mr. Landau is here, and I believe he is going to be called. 15461. Is not that affiliated to your Board of Guardians ?—No. 15462. That is quite a separate organisation?—-Yes. 15463. Is that run and financed by different people altogether ?—I think you had better get that from Mr. X*andau, if you will allow me to say so. 15464. You say there lias been during the last 12 months a restriction in the number of ca»es sent to New York ?—That is so, as applying to 1901; but that state- ment was written, in 1902. I have already explained, I think, in my evidence in chief that we have reverted to the original arrangements, so that that is no longer in force. 15465. Was the restriction in the number sent to America not felt before owing to the immigration laws in America?—No, I do not think so. What figures are you referring to ? 15466. The restriction in the number that you sent to America. Had that not been diminished by the restric- tive laws in America before the protest of the American Jewish charities ?—No, I do not think so. Our reports for each/ year give the destinations of the cases emi- grated. They are classed here altogether. 15467. On page 18 of the 1894 report of the Jewish Board of Guardians it was said ; " Such immigration outside Europe has received a grave check from America." That extract will also show that a consider- able number of poor Jews were returned from America and were relieved by you ?—No, I do not think so. The relief would only have been to send them on to their home. If it were so that we did relieve people returned from America, it would only be to help them home. 15468. Is that an exceptional case their coming over from America and coming on, to your hands ?—We ge-t very few cases of our own thait are returned from America, and we do not get many more of other cases. I called the secretary's iattemtion to an answer in the House of Commons that 25 cases had been returned from America by the shipping companies, and he tells me that we have not had 20 cases during the past year. 15469. With regard to the repatriation cases, are the bulk of these repatriated persons destitute and unable to earn a living in this country ?—They are, as I have said, persons who have no relatives to assist them here, who had no reason to come here, and persons who failed here. 15470. Persons who had no reason to come here ?—-I consider a reason to come here would be if they had any relations who had written to them to say they could assist them until they were on their legs. 15471. Do you find that any of them, apart from the question of poverty, are physically or mentally unfit to earn their living here?—I cannot give you any positive information about their unfitness, but some of them are physically very powerful, more particularly the Rou- manians. I saw a great many of the Roumanian oases in 1900, 300 or 400; in fact, the bulk of them, and they struck me as being physically superior men. 15472. You would not think that many of them, apart from poverty, are physically or mentally unfit, apart from Roumanians ?—No. We relieved in 1902 18 cases where the husbands were in the lunatic asylum. I do not say there were not other poor Jews in lunatic asylums ; but the families did not apply to us for assist- ance. In the previous year the number was 20. 15473. Is that foreigners?—I cannot tell. 15474. {Chairman.) Then that comes to nothing?— No, we will assume they are all foreigners. It is not a very large number. 15475. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your Board has been for many years trying to restrict immigration into England, has it not?—To keep it in check, yes. 15476. On what ground?—On the ground that it is alleged that they all go to one quarter, and add to the congestion. 15477. " Alleged " ! Is it not the fact that they do so ? (»Chairman.) You accept that as a fact?!—Yes, I have stated in my paper that the area is congested, and we do not wish to add anything to it. 15478. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would you agree with the statement made in the report of your Board, as long ago as 1887, " That this policy," that is, the policy of restriction, " is dictated by a desire to ward off a dangerous congestion of pauperism in centres already overcrowded with the poor " ?—I think the language rather strong. 15479. But that was the intention ?—That was the in- tention—not to add to the congestion. 15480. And is it the intention now ?—Yes, I think I have given strong evidence that that is still our inten- tion, by the action we took in 1900, when there was evi- dence of a fresh movement here. 15481. What applied in 1887 when the stream of migration into England is excessive, for these reasons, applies with greater force now ?—I do not quite follow that. 15482. I have quoted to you what was said in 1887. that " the movement to stop restriction was to ward off a dangerous congestion of pauperism in centres already overcrowded with the poor," and I now say, that what was said in 1887, when the stream of immigrants was much less than it is now—infinitely less—should apply with even greater force now ?—That is so certainly. 154B3. In the Report of your Board for 1891, at page 537' 9£$jh.fo lffiiereiigjve'moreover 1 numerous helpldss cases wliicli have wandered to London, but which need not, and should, not, have left < places in RussiaoinTwliioh they* were living unmolested, ^ej^i|,onlystruggling^ Would you^say thai was* stilltrue ?^Would I -say; that tliere are •still foreigners Goaiing: here ?i.; ■ ^ ; -15464. That there are^ numerous topless cases which liay^;; w^dered r- biiif vfeichi nJeed: not, anil should; havele$t-pl&c&sJin;-^us®ift,!':iiv-f%ihich; they were living unmolested, -if only in a struggling condi- tion '' J—^I should say it not true' to the. same extent, and that there are not .num^u^heiples'si cases wander- ing to London which should' not have left. Russia.. 15485. You say that is less true now than it was then? —Than it was in 1891. That is pretty obvious., I think. 15486. The fact that your Board tries to prevent the immigrants from coming into this country, and sends every year a large number back, or emigrates them to other countries, would show, would it not, that in the opinion of your Board at any rate, the immigration into England is excessive ?—No<—'might become excessive if it were not for the precautions which we had taken. 15487. But is not the faqti of your emigrating them, and repatriating them to conditions which are sometimes very much complained of, show that their coming here is excessive?—No. 15488. If it is not excessive, why are they sent away ? ■—Because they are people who cannot succeed here. I should like4 it to be understood' that in answering all your questions I am only dealing with poor aliens. I do not know how many more aliens dome here, and in my answers I have in my mind the figures which I have handed in. 15489. Is your Board still of the opinion that the im- migration into England is excessive, for these reasons without coming in this way and having to' be sent back and so on ?—I am not of opinion that the immigration of pauper aliens is excessive. 15490. Is the Board of that opinion ?—I have not taken the opinion of the Board ; but I am prejoared to speak in the name of the Board. 15491. That hardly agrees with the great efforts which are made to send these people away, and to send them back, does it %—'Yes, I think so, because we deal with each case on its merits. We get an individual, and if he cannot make out a case for remaining here, and he is not likely to succeed, we send him back. Tt seems to me there would be a much greater cause for complaint if we let such a case remain here. 15492. Do you suggest that all who* ought to go back do go back ?—All those who apply to< us. 15493. If the Board is not of opinion that the immi- gration into England is excessive, why does it continue, as is stated in your statement, to issue repeated warn- ings, and why does it continue to repatriate on such a large scale each year?—As regards the first question, why we issued a warning in 1901 was that we could not be sure that the movement which began in 1900 was not going to .continue, and it was much better to issue a warning in anticipation of such a movement than tc> await until it took place. You asked me the second question in another form just now. Shall I answer it again in the same way ? 15494. .No, I do not think it is necessary, but what I frant to point out to you is that you say in your state- ment,. " Among foreigners repatriated are those who have no relatives to help them on arrival, and who have come over in spite of the. warnings repeatedly issued by the Board through the Rabbis and newspapers of the districts concerned, cautioning intending emigrants against coming to this country." I want to get from you if the immigration into this country is not excessive in your opinion, and in the opinion of the Board, why are these strong measures taken, warnings repeatedly issuieid, eautioiis through the Rabbis, repatriation, emi- gration.to other countries, which all, in my judgment, points to .an excessive immigration inito this country?— It does not to my mind, because we issue these warn- ings in anticipation of a movement recurring, that is to my, that movement in 1900 might have been followed up in 1901. The word " repeatedly " is used because in 1901 we issued these circulars, and I think it was Mr. Arnold White, when, he was called' here about a year ago, who quoted from a circular which was issued by the Board of a similar character in, I forget what year—1888,1 think, but I am not suite. That is why I u$ed> the word " re- '6144. peafedly." If referred to tfie circular which he men- Mr. L„ Ln tioiied, and to the one which we issued in 1901. Cohen, 15495. It has only been-done twice) then?—I should:12 Mar7i^03 not say that. „ It might have been done more often, bu1; " eyeji if it had been,done .every year I should think it'a.* VBry desirable measure ih order to stave off the move-'- ®ient to this country. 15496. It staves off a movement which is not desirable to this country ?—I do not say that. That is the question which you are deciding.- 15497. I understand there have been certainly two, and possibly more, warnings ?—Yes. 15498. In spite of those, warnings the flow goes on strongly, or more strongly than ever, and I infer from that that voluntary efforts have failed hitherto to check it?—I do not say that. My figures do not show that the number of pauper aliens has been continuing to flow here in increasing numbers. 15499. (Chairman.) Yes, they have 'increased from 16}000 to 22,000 ?—Not pauper -aliens. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But I mean the general flow of alien immigration. 15500. (Chairman.) Major Gordon was on the last return ?—But I could not give you the information on the last return. 15501. The aliens have increased ?—I am afraid I cannot give any information on the general question. 15502. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With reference to the repatriation cases, how do the figures pan out?—They do not vary very much, except in the year in which there has been a large increase. 15503. In 1900?—Yes. 15504. What was the repatriation for 1902 ?—967. Of the 2,082 new cases relieved, 967, or about 46^ per cent., applied and were assisted only to leave the country. 15505. The point is that these repatriations, in spite of these warnings and attempts that you have made to check the inflow by voluntary effort on your part, have gone on, and the necessity of sending these people back to1 their own country continues ?—It does. A certain number of people arrive here who are not suitable, and are sent back, but, naturally, as they are rsnatriatad, they do not acid to the number who remain here, 15506. No, I am not on that point. I say a number do arrive here that you have for various reasons to send back, and that you try to prevent their coming ?— Quite so. 15507. You try to restrict them by your voluntary effort ?—Yes. 15508. What I want to get is this: If it is desirable that this immigration should be restricted, why should you object to the State attempting to do what you con- sider' is advisable to attempt to do yourself?—I never objected to anything. 15509. You do not object?—I have not given any opinion at all upon that. Would you quote from any- thing I have said which could be so interpreted C Because I should like to be referred to it. I am not aware that I have even given an opinion as to whethei' aliens or pauper aliens should be kept out or admitted. 15510. We have been running this inquiry rather as a case ?—I am here for the. purpose of giving informa- tion more than anything else. 15511. Would you object to the State attempting to do what you consider advisable in some cases to do ?— Keep out undesirables ?* I should consider it most desirable to keep out undesirable aliens. 15512. To keep out the class that you have to spend large sums of money upon in sending back?—I would rather be a little more definite than that. I would rather say that I would advocate keeping out people who are not desirable. 15513. Would that include the people whom you very often have to repatriate ?-—A good many of them. 15514. Now, with regard to Table LXXXI. You have' multiplied those- into individuals, have not you?—1 suggest that as a figure. 15515. That is quite a reasonable thing. Can you do the same for Table LXXXII. P—If we apply the figure 3 to one- tablet it would apply all round1. - • 15516. That would make about '17,700 individual foreigners?—But you must' apply the same principle 'to 3 Y538 *>OYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr, L. L.% (token. 12*1^1,903. the figure I use in my deductions. The number of old cases would liaye to be multiplied by three to arrive at the number of persons regaining in 1901 as against 1895, the first year of my comparison. 15517. You say that your statistics show that the foreign influx has not acted prejudicially to the foreigners who have been settled here for some years? —Yes. 15518. But I notice again going back to the report of 1894, at page 13, " The conclusion which is irresisti- bly forced upon it" that is the Board, " is that the extent of recent immigration has been out of proportion to the volume of those trades in which poor Jews arei mainly engaged; the result being a severe struggle for existence, in which native Jews hold their own, but which presses acutely both on settlers and foreigners, namely, those resident here respectively ' seven years and upwards ' -and ' less than seven years.' How do you reconcile that statement with the statement that the foreign influx has not -acted prejudicially on foreigners who have been settled here for some years? —Very easily. As I understand that extract it relates to the year 1894. 15519. It does ?—'The observation that11 make relates to what has gone on from 1894, that is to say, from 1895 to 1901, and I give the figures on page 2 of my state- ment to support that'. Column 3 of Table LXXX. is, " Foreigners resident here seven years and upwards : In 1895, 330 cases; in 1901, 375 cases." Therefore, what- ever happened in 1894 the same feature has not been exhibited since, or the 'same results have not ensued. 15520. Do you say the continued influx sat the pre- sent day produces no practical effect on the Jewish labour market itself ?—I confine myself to the Jewish poor, and, as the figures of the Jewish Board of Guardians show there has been no increase in the number of cases of foreigners resident here seven years and upwards. 15521. But you express no opinion on the labour market ?-—No, I am not an authority on thei labour market. 15522. Your Board has for years, I judge from its reports, been trying to check the tide of immigration, and, despite your efforts, the tide flows on >as strongly as ever. Your Board and the Joint Committee repa- triated 529 cases in 1895, and 1,180 oases in 1901. Does the Board regard with equanimity the gradual closing of the door in America ?—I did not know that it was being closed ill an effective way, because the fibres for 30th of June, 1901, to the 30th June, 1900, show that only two-thirds of one per cent, have been kept out of those who come over. 15523. (Mr. Lyttelton.) That is a fallacy, I think 1— Those are the official figures. 15524. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you think the actual keeping out is the measure of the people who are kept out by the American restrictive laws ?—Not at all. I should say the fact of the existence of these restrictive laws prevents many people trying to get in. That is quite obvious, I think. 15525. And if the door in America is closed more tightly a,s it has been bv this new Act, what then?—Do you mean the 1903 Act? 15526. Yes ?—I have not seen it. (Chairman.) It haa been passed in the last few days, and it is much more stringent. 15527. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Will not that create - an inevitable tendency towards increasing the stream of immigrants to England?—I should think not. 15528. You do mot think it would ?—No. 15529. You say stopping them going to America would not point to more coming here ?—I do not think it would if they wanted to go to America. They would stop at home until another outlet has been found. 15530. I thought they wanted to get away from where they are ?—But they will not come here, where they are nJot likely to isucceed, because they cannot get into Anieirica, where they may succeed. 15531. (Chairman.) "When you say they would stop at home till another outlet is found for them, will not they try this outlet ?—I do not look upon England as an outlet for them. 15532. (Mr. Norman.) But do not they look upon it an outlet ?—That I cannot say. I do not think so. 15533. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Anyhow, the only barrier against this increased stream coming here is the* voluntary effort of your own Board?—-Dealing with, pauper foreigners ? 15534. Yes?—Yes, the only existing one, 15535. Is it not a fact that your Board's account®. *-#iow an increasing deficit ?—No. Up to the year 1897 we had no deficit. I am speaking rather vaguely. 15536. Froim 1897 to 1901?—We have had a deficit, but the deficit, which was nearly £4,000, is now only £1,560. Personally, I do not look upon a deficit as a. bad thing for a charity! But those are the facts. 15537. Does it not show that the resources of the* Board are very considerably strained?—'No. I may say that in 1900 they were strained, but they have shown wonderful elasticity, because they have recovered since*- then. I do not think you can say that the resources of the Board are strained when they have a capital fund of: £68,000 at their free disposal. 15538. It has been stated by the Board on several, occasions that the task it 'has undertaken may become^ •too large for it to deal with?—Yes. I should think it very likely. I possibly may have used that expression, in appealing for money myself. 15539. Is it not probable that if the influx increases,. and you experience a sudden rise from economic causes, that is to say a crisis in Eastern Europe, or having a. tighter door in America, that your Board may find itself inadequate to deal with the situation ?—I do not think so. 15540. You do not think the position will* ever arise in which your Board will be in a position to be unable' to repatriate all the people that it should repatriate* when they arrive here ?—I really do not mind answer- ing the question, but what is the value of my opinion on a hypothetical case which has not arisen. 15541. I want to get this from you. Do you see any prospect of the stream of immigration here decreasing I- —It has decreased, and it showsi a tendency to decrease- now from what it was in 1900. 15542. In relief?—'Yes, 'as far as the: Board is con- cerned. 15543. (Chaiman.) From 1900?—From 1900. 15544. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The people who came here in 1902 were enormously greater in number, and it is not in the least proved, because they have not ap- peared before the Board yet, that these people are ail going to do well, and are not going to appear before the Board at all ?—I am speaking of paupers, and you. are speaking of the general influx. 15545. I am speaking of the general immigration ?— I am speaking of paupers. 15546. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You do not accept the Board, of Trade figures?—Yes. I am quite prepared to accept, those, but I say they are not a contribution to my sidet of the question which is to deal with the paupers when they apply to the Board of Guardians. Major Evans- Gordon asks me how many of these 22,000; are likely to: be applicants to the Board, and what will be the strain, on the Board. I tell him I am not able to answer a, hypothetical question of that kind. I am very sorry, but I am not able to do so. 15547. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You would infer from the increased figures that there is no prospect ot the im- migration increasing ?!—I do not find those figures any guide to my work in dealing with paupers. 15548. I understand that you would have no objec- tion as far as you are concerned to the State undertaking the duties or responsibilities for repatriating these- people, whom you repatriate, at their expense, instead of your doing it ?—I should prefer to put it the other way, as I did, which was that rather than the mam should, come upon the State to be repatriated, if the State inter- venes at all I would prefer that the State keeps thenn out as undesirables. 15549. That is what it would amount to if any restric- tive law was passed ?—No, not quite, because the way1 I put it would prevent the undesirables coming. 15550. You would prevent their starting ?—Yes. If' the State is going to do anything in dealing with un- desirables it seems to me it had better begin at the right end. We unfortunately can only begin at the- wrong end. 15551. (Chairman.) By "we" you mean the Jewish \ Board of Guardians ?—Yes, my Lord. 15552. (Major Evans-Gordon*), You think it would be?i^UTBS OF EVIDENCE. 639 benefit to prevent this .senseless travelling to and fro of these people who axe unaiblejx> do well for themselves 4$ this: country ?~-«I do> not wish: to be misunderstood in any way. I capped myself in that expression of , opinion e^ii^ly to.,^.desirable persons. 15553,Yes, I follow you. Is it the undesirable that fyou^ ,largely deal with in your repatriation yourselves ?— Jtfa^urally. 15554;. (Chairman.) Can you give us a short definition of ^whoiiL you regard as an undesirable?—I consider ♦am undesirable a person who comes here with a physical incapacity obvious to the eye, and a man of a very poor physique, and> of coursie, persons, who have been '<$onvicted of crimes before they come here—persons who are engaged in immoral trade, such as souteneurs, j^octirers, and that class of person, and of course pros- -tifutes. 1555& (Major Evans-Gordon,) Would you go further than that, and say in the case of thesie people who have been allowed to land there might be grave difficulty in finding out bef orehand what their character was. Would you have any power given to send them back to their hQxnes if thejr were proved to be undesirable people after they came here ?—I should give tliem a certain ;amount of law, I think, but you are asking me in the «eyent of there being an arrangement for keeping them . out which breaks down—people who have got through i;he messes of the net. ,15556. In the case of character it would be a coocnpara- itively easy thing to get through the net, and there- fore we ought to hare some means of? stopping them •after, they have got through the net—people who are a ^discredit to any community ?—That presupposes that the arrangements you set up for keeping out the un- * desirables break down. 15557. Morally undesirable?—That is a very difficult < question, I admit. 15558. (Chairman.) Not quite that, because they may Ibecome undesirable afterwards and become criminals ihere, and be convicted?—-Then you could deport them i£ the foreign countries would take them back. :; 15559; That is the point ?—Yes. 15560. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Can you tell us any- itihing about the efforts that have been made to relieve the pressure in the East End of London by disseminat- ing and spreading about the Jewish population there? -—We endeavour to do so in cases which come before us at the Rbta. We try and induce the people to go into outlying districts. It is referred to in our report "of this year, which is just going to be published : " The Board sends comparatively few cases to the provinces, Vbut it'does its utmost to induce applicants to move to Tplaces like Forest Gate,, Manor Park, and Waltham- stow, etc., in outer London." We do endeavour to per- suade them to go. 15561. Has that been attended by any measure of success ?—It is a fluctuating success. 15562. (Chairman.) Could any official belonging to .your body give us details of the aliens relieved in the different metropolitan districts?—¥es, I think they could. I could give you one figure which might interest you bearing upon that. An analysis of 1,100 new cases added to the register in 1901 ishows the number of cases vresiding in Stepney was 243, in Whitechapel' 489, and in St. 'George's 535. I have not got other figures here. 15563. We want to show where the congestion is strongest, and your relief of your poor affords some '--evidence of that. I want to compare it with some quite •clear districts?—I will endeavour to get out the figures. 15564. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Can you tell us how many instances, roughly, they have moved out?-—I am • afraid I cannot. I ami afraid they could not give us figures of that 'kind. 15565. (Mr. Norman.) Does not the Board keep a . ireoord of the addresses?—It keep© a record of the addresses of these applicants ; but I do not think it "Would be possible to trace which of them have moved. 15566. Can youtelTusfoow many applicants for dis- tribution have presented themselves to the Board?— I could tell you the districts in which the applicants live when they present themselves for relief. I have given a fraction of it. 15567. '(Major Evans-Gordon.) I suppose there, is a •great tendency for these .peqple to k&ep together?— Yes, obviously, because I refer to the congestion in the TS'ast End. 6L44. 15568. They are difficult people to disseminate?-— *Mr. L. £♦ Yes, they are gregarious. Cohen. 15569. (Mr. Norman.) In connection with this last. 22 MarTl903» point about distribution, could you tell us in how many — cases industrial., dwellings have been exacted in outlying districts ?—No, I could not. Lord Rothschild could tell you, I think. He is the chairman of a company dealing with that. 15570. The statement appears in your evidence ?—Yes, it is a fact, but I oannot give you the information.. 15571. I only want to know to what extent it is a fact ? —I could not tell you. I only know they are building one set of buildings in Hackney now, and1 another set in Stoke Newjngton; but that is not full information. Then there are some at Stepney Green, which I con- sider more or less outside the heart of the district. 15572. You do not wish to express any opinion about the desirability or non-desirability of the restriction of alien immigration in general, I understand you prefer not tc ?—I have really no opinion, I do not know what it means. If you would tell me how you propose to do it, then I would say whether I approve of it; but I have heard so many palliatives- 15573. I understood you did not wish to express your opinion about that, therefore I was not going to ask you any question about it ?—If you ask me any question, I Should rather like to have the option of saying I would! rather not answer it. 15574. At the bottom of page 11 of your printed state- ment you point out that if restriction of alien immigrar tion does do away with overcrowding it will only be in on© district; it will not affect overcrowding in other parts of London and the country. You do not put thaib forward a,s a serious argument against restriction in that district hNo ; but I look upon the crux of the question as overcrowding, and if you only deal with keeping out foreigners who live in a particular district, you have only dealt with a fraction of the whole question of over- crowding. 15575. But my point is, that if you desire to mitigate overcrowding, surely it is an advantage to have mitigated it in one district and for one class?—'Yes ; but the ad- vantage must be discounted by the machinery you have to put in motion to effect it. 15576. That is a different question ?—That was all present to me when I wrote that down. 15577. You say it is only the fringe of the problem, but if one nures a thing on the fringe it surely is an advantage -I should give you the credit of curing th© fringe of the problem, and nothing more. 15578. (Chairman.) Do you think the machinery would »e general or only to cure the fringe ? It might bs the machinery might be applied to the fringe ?—I said, if you applied the machinery, which is pernicious in its other results, is it worth while to deal with the fringe ? One would require to have a definition of machinery first. 15579. (Mr. Norman.) Why does the Board find it so nw.essarv to have the sanitary inspectors so very busily employed ?—That goes back rather to the early history of the committee, and Mr. Joseph, chairman of the Sanitary Committee, I believe, is the next witness, ii you would not mind reserving for him any questions with regard to the Sanitary Committee. 15580. But there is a good deal on this subject in your evidence?—You ask me why it was found necessary to have it. 15581. I ask you why it was necessary, my point being that unless this- private institution came to the rescue of the law, the defects in this foreign community would be so striking in comparison to the other, parts of the community as to attract general attention ?—That may be to some extent the reason, but it is none the less the duty of the local authority to do its work, and the Board finding it was not doing its work supplemented it. I do not think the fact that they are foreigners who are in the charge of the local authority absolves it from doing its duty. 15582. You found it necessary or desirable to come to the rescue of the authorities in the case of this foreign community ?—You can put it like that. 15583. Has your Board received any communication, from a corresponding body in the United States, the United Hebrew Charities., concerning the increasing difficulty of receiving these alien immigrants in the United States?—We have had communications, not to * - 2KOYAL COMMISSION, kOIJ, ,AJjI®N . IMMIGRATION : Mr* L* L. . jeffpct. tLa^ihere.was a difficulty in absarMng.tJiem in 'Vl /*y«v2» ««« /%. TT-m-t + ^rl dJ-n4-arf • 4-l\ n 4- 4-1V* /-\ty ittav>a 1 n rl rl Tn /V 4- r\ a .3ft Cogens' ^tar.|1903, th.e tfnitesd States ; 1 DutJ that 'tfiey were adding' to the congestion to New York, and that it required time for them to ti^isftersed. . . ^ ;. 15584. At any rate> you have received oommumcarfaooris Jrom ^e Unitexl Hebrew Chiariities in America,t pointing out. for one, reason or another the greater difficulty of dealihg witt the pi^ohlein there, arid suggesting that. yo;u shpuld assist them ?—By making inquiries m certain individual:eases. •> 155&& ttfey have never '.suggested' that you should perhaps press it on with less' vigour I'-^The total number of cas.es th&t #e send to; America is very small—about 200 a year.. ........ f !S586r^3^iJat is hardly an ^nswer to my questioni ;, you have received a cpinimuriication- pointing in it^at direc- tion ?—The communication we received from America was to ask us to inquire in particular cases when we had doiibts as to" -whether the" relations could suppoft tiw(r&j , ' [ - ■' , "jt5587l "Ttis,'iai an extract from the American report: [n We have come to an understanding with the! London Board" of Guardians, whereby unwise ' 'Shipments of Jewish immigrants who are not adapted to life in this country will be stopped " ?—That is an understanding we have come to, and we have just given them notice to : terminate it, because we found iit inflicted hardship in '•the -"'case'-of.'certain;' families who wished to rejoin the husband. 1'; 1.5588. You have given the United Hebrew Charities 'notice?—^We have given them, notice that we shall not wait fdr answers to our inquiries, except in cases where we think it desirable to wait. We should be free to do as we please. 15589. In sending them to America?1—To New York. It only related to New York. 15590. That is to isay, at the moment you are not entirely, in agreement with your colleagues in America ? —It was an arrangement which we said was provisional, to meet what we thought was the emergency created by the influx which took place in New York after 1901, and during 1901, as the result of the Roumanian crisis. 15591. Therefore, at the moment you are not quite in harmony with them upon this point. They are asking you to take certain action in the direction of re^ striction which you are declining to take. That is what it comes to, is it not ?—-'That is so. It only relates to one class of case; that is the class of case of women who desire to rejoin their husbands. The United Hebrew Charities seek to set up a certain standard of living, and when we.find that the husband has sent two-thirds or more of the cost of sending the family over, we feel we have no right to abstain from giving them the other third. That is the whole of it. There are very few cases comprised in that category. 15592. The United Hebrew Charities are trying to ©et up a certain standard of living for aliens in. America % —No, I do not say that at all. I say in a particular case they think where the; man is earning 6 dollars a week that is not enough. . - ' 15593. You said, in your opinion, any individual who could succeed here should be admitted ?—I very likely did say so, if you took down my words. 15594. I took down your words ?—In connection with what did I say that? 15595. My questions are rather disconnected; but they are upon different parts of your evidence. I re- turn to the general question of immigration. You said you would admit anybody who could succeed here. I only remind you of that to ask you, would you admit them without any limit?—I do not remember using •that sentence. What is the context ? 15596. It was a question of excluding certain un- desirable people who could .not succeed here, and ad- mitting persons who could succeed here, and you used the expression yourself ?—I do not think so. I think I isaid that I am in favour of not admitting persons who could not succeed here, but I dr, not think I said anything .about people who. could succeed here. I did not igo into- that question. You started your interro- gatory by saying, that I declined to give any opinion upon the general question. 15597. I started my interrogatory by saying I under- stood you desired not to express any. opinion; not that you have not, because you obviously have ?—If I had said I would admit every person who could succeed here. I should haye given an . opinion, ,m the general! question., ' , ...... > .. -j;. . ' 15598. I think you have given -an express opinion | but, •*I though&you did it rather reluctantly. However,' if. ytiu, do not wish to do so I pass on from that;?^I only wish, to >say I .did not make tnat, a.dmis>sipn in, tho^e terms. - 15599.' I will not -pursue ^that, because^ it ;isj on the general question. You gave us just now a definition' of what is a;n.;u^desirable in your, vie\^.,IJ%v^ you/,p&ver repatriated" anybody ; who does not cpnie; ;.within, that definition of, undesirables \. 4 . i;U s? »v • (Chaitfmctriu.) Does repatriation ";ith£re -^any?&hly assisting or; helping 'them^'tO'-go- back; • -m- -'"ytfijj * ' 15600- (Mr. Nofmatil) Doing all the things the Bb^¥d 'haVe to do:, to get them out of the cdfiintryr You" gay$ a. certain 'definition of''t6ideSifr^M'^,'' til&fc&ly, pedpl^ who were criminals or 'souteneurs, or persons of very #feuk physique, and various other- things'; Have yoti1^ your- selves1 never repatriated anybody- who did net coMe within that definition ?—J could • not slay offhand;-* I have defined the class of persons1 that we do> repatriate- as people who have no reason to come^here, and who come- to us for assistance, and we say.: " We can give you no. assistance return home. If you can support yourself remain here on your own account. : « 15601. You cannot answer my question that you ha,Ve-. never repatriated anybody who- is not of this class ?—-Xt is a very wide question1—what we have never done. ' I should not like to answer any question in those termsi 15602. Have you never been in the habit of re> patriating people who do not come within this defini: tion ?—What is behind your question ? If you told me I should be better able to answer it. 15603. I suggest to you, that you, as a Board, have assisted to repatriate a good many people who are- neither of obviously weak physique nor Criminals, nor- souteneurs, nor prostitutes'?—No doubt we have, because-1 said that people who* have no reason to come here, without regard to their physical qualification, we offer to send back, if. they cannot succeed. 15604. I will tell you frankly what my point is, that, if you send back those people a fortiori if the British Government; like to send them back it has a strong argument on its behalf by reason of the fact that you send them back. That is my point, and I wish to make it very plain to you. {Chairman,) One distinction is they are sent back voluntarily, and you want the British Government to> send them back compulsorily. 15605. (Mr. Norman.) You said with regard to this, six months before these people come to you for assist- ance, that they geit no assistance from other Jewish-, charities?—Yes, I said, I believe there are no other- Jewish charities except the soup kitchen to which I have referred, to which they can apply. 15606. I will give you a list of Jewish charities and1 ask you whether any of these charities assist these men during their six months. What about the Busso- Jewish Committee, with its location and information- bureau ?—That is included in the Russo-Jewish Com- mitt-ee. Their reports ar'e in the Jewish Board re- ports ; it is in Table LXXX. The amount expended its,: not given; but iall the cases are included. All those cases dealt with by the Russo Information Bureau are new. 15607. What about the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter in Leman Street ?—Mr. Landau is going to be called, and he can tell you exactly. 15608. But I am asking you?—That is not a charit- able institution. It does not distribute relief. 15609. (Major IEvans-Gordon.) Does it give them food" and shelter?—They pay for food, I believe. You can get it accurately from Mr. Landau, but you can only- get impressions from me. 15610. I have it on the highest authority that the . homeless foreigner is always sure of a brief welcome: Are you aware that that is so ?—'.-1 y . A-if" «/t, i 5j41 mrft&e; With the Exception of the* Jewish soup1 kitchen/ I ii&ade th^ &xcSjrtMrij and; IBelieve^that^lih^ 'society'tb wlft6h'ffiu h&te rcferredis'1 in '/connection ^ith-that. v i .15^13., Then, there is, the fr(ovident Dispensary in ^l^^chapeiL ^Thiat is, shut up, I^eHeve, / , ,, , 1 *ftarf>eesE e-temed^ fewisk. Dispel sio^Cbmi^tt^ ataecgi-I wrote' this paper. ,w . , • 15615?; Can you te^ll us (anything about it howi fl^No, li^aiMot give you -any information iabotit the- Jewish • Dispersion - <;■■■ , " a:v &»--<"•• ' '15616;': Then there is a society whiiilr distributes v^AX.A-j-v^-4 ir4i« ■'.« -M/l * ' ^ M'.it% ri4- •'■ 'tVArt'ti rl'-l:r(4*'nh J^t"'sa^ it doe# not. exist.; i,o456i7y. JDoes. that restrict, its operation to . poor foreigners', who have been here six months?—I havje ne^er heard of it; . I daresay it exists, but I cannot give youjajay information about it. - 15618. Then there are a number of bread, meat, and 'coal charities, the o] dest of which dates from 1779, and distributes benefits to the amount of £2,300?—I am a trustee? of it, and most of its tickets are distributed through the Board of Guardians. 15619. Does it restrict its charity to -poor foreigners who 'have been here six month® ?—No, it simply issues tickets to those subscribers who either give them them- selves direct to the beneficiaries or send them through the Boar$ of Guardians,. 15620. They may give them to; poor foreigners! who have only; been here >a few weeks?—I should think nobody does that. 15621. There is no reason why they should not. If a charitable person sees a starving foreigner would he ask him whether he had been here six months before he gives him a ticket ?—Jf connected with the Board of Guardians he would. , 15622. But a great number of these tickets come into the hands of people not connected with the Board of Guardians ?—I do not know. 15623. Does the distribution of clothing and blankets by the United Synagogue take place through the Board of Guardians?—No, but they always have every case that they deal with investigated by the Board of Guardians. 15624. Do they restrict their gifts to poor foreigners who have been here six month's?—I have no authority to make statements on behalf of anybody, but I should say they did not. 15625. Have I not given you sufficient reason to think that your statement that the poor foreigners were not assisted by any Jewish charity until they had been here for six months, with the exception of the soup kitchen, was perhaps, not accurate in the strictest sense ? —In the main I should consider it quite accurate. 15626. In spite of these various societies I have men- tioned?—Yes. I do not find any charity of any pur- pose that you cite here. 15627. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Enough to keep body and soul together?—There is a difference of opinion between us. 15628. (Chairman.) It is nothing but groceries?—I do not find anything. (.Major Evans-Gordon.) Groceries and blankets. 15629. (Mr. Norman.) It being accepted by all men that -the most charitable class of the community pro- bably is the wealthy London Jew, do you mean to really suggest that the poor foreigner would be allowed by them, with all their great charity and all their great agencies, positively to want in London because he had not been here six months?—I do not know what hap- pens to him during those six months, but in my paper I say the evidence points to his coming here with enough to keep him going, or else he would apply to the Board of Guardians. 15630. Enough to keep him going six months ?—What becomes of him? Either' his compatriots assist him because he does not go to the' workhouse, and he does not starve. 15631. (Major Evans-Gordon.) On that point have you had oases sudh as I heard of in Hamburg* of these people going to these societies for the conversion of the Jews who have enormous incomes to spend?—I have Mr. L. L, ■hea^of-W fe#J kiic®fi't5i^s,f but-we- db iiot ;bid agaihstv : ...... r* you, .1 am'afraid, ?—tf y;ou like -to ------- * ,15633,. That Is'a. puree to.which many of thesie people: go have 'met' a very' fewv, .cases.J.., - ,.7. 7 7• 7,, • .b&m&i of; isonae?-in:iHambu^g,cTh^se jpe&ple weie before the Jewish; ;Qom^ asked i^em,Have. you,ibepn;; to the.mission? ;and,,M|pr a Ipd?*4 c|$sb-i0^^ ''ticket,' sq^^y hacl. been -t^ese.; pg^laha^evlarge fu)^ .to dispose of, ^d X'air^ afraid, they do not dispose, of them vei^ yiseiy ? hoi gon,e ,ihto that. : j..7. Adj ourned for- a * short time. ' •••-•-» ' "1 -: -1 15635. , (M%jpr ^vans-Gordon,) With regard lto /ihe quejstiQp. of: the distribution, of jblanketsi by the United .>Syn;agogues which vyoiU, referred. to in . answer to^Mi?. Norman* I-think yoiu would like to modify your answer^ —'I said I ;thought that they .^fere only distributed to foreigners who had been here some time, but I fiii(l upon. inquiry that they must ' be, , distributed to persons, whp have been married in a synagogue, in EnglaM ; so,there- fore/ that would exclude foreigners who had only been here lesis than six months. , <• - , ; ^ . 15636. That would exclude practically all, if not in- clude* them altogether?:--Yes. . . 45637;! Then* with regard to the ^groceries, have you. anything further to say?—I find on reference to ou# report . .about to ' be issued that the North London .Groceries Fund, which I think was the fund Mr. Noymjan referred to, places this year at the disposal of the-, Boar;^. as many as 100 tickets a week, so that the bulk of the distribution passes through the hands of the Board,, and. therefore in that sense is concentrated there......... 15638. (Mr. T/yMelton.) I gather that the policy of the*. Board of which you have been chairman has always been. yourselves, so far >as you were able, to restrict unde- sirables?—Yes. 15639. And that policy you have given effect to SO' far as you are able in the first place by warning those about to come not to come unless they have certain qualificat- tions ?—Yes. . 15640. In the second place, by assisting those out of! the country whom you find not competent to survive the stress of existence here ?—Quite so. 15641. Taking the first point, the warning ■ of thoso- not to come who are not qualified, what organisation have you to make such warnings effective?—We have n >• other organisation than The intermittent circulars t > which I have referred, which we send to the leading; Rabbis and newspapers published in Yiddish in th j places from whence these people come. That circulari- sation is spasmodic; it would be no good continuously doing it; it would lose its force. We have only done- it when we thought there was a movement impending, or after the movement has taken place to prevent its continuance. 15642. You have not by sub-committees or branch. Boards, or anything of that sort, any organisation in th« countries from which your compatriots come which enables you to reach them particularly ?—N'o, I do nob think we could create such organisations there. I d# not think the suitable material would exist. 15643. Have you reason to believe that the circularp* you have sent have been effective ?—Inferentially I should understand they have, or there might have been other contributory causes. I am unable to analyse what has brought about the result. I can only state th© result. Take, for instance, 1900, the year of the last spasmodic movement. Since then there has been a diminution at the same time we issued circulars. My inference is it has been the result of the circulars, but equally it might be said it is the result of some other cause with which I am not acquainted. 15644. Can you suggest any organisation by which. such warnings could be more effectively conveyed if expense were not an object ?—No, I am afraid I could not, because I do not think the Board of Guardians- has ever recoiled from expense, and if any such organi- sation suggested itself we should have adopted it, or we should ha ye created it. 15645. The reason why I ask that question is: Sup- posing the State were to attempt sucjh an organisation, would it have, in your opinion, even as good machiaer/ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : 'Mr, L\ you have in the way of warning your compatriots WoMm. * abrbEH ?-~®liat ratter involves a closer acquaintance ':v -r-f-'" o with the consular service, through which I presume t t& it, because I venture to think that the Board of Guardians deSals with 'the bulk of them, I would go further thw your; question implies, 15648* I think I understand what you mean. The way Xwasthinking of it for the moment wasy some one intro- duced here who, experientae proves, is a failure with regard to living here. Your remedy is to expatriate hii» with a certain contribution from him?—Yes. 15649. What I was suggesting to you was that an evil JiaS pro tanto for the time he was living here been cr^a/ted by his arrival. Your answer to that is, as I understand, "Yes, true, but we, the Jewish jBoard pf Gtford'ians, deal with that evil' from first to last" %— We deal with that evil as soon as we become acquainted with it by the application of the person concerned, As soon as this undesirable, or failure, as I call him, pre- sents himself to us, we deal with him by repatriating Mm, 15650. (Chairman.) "Expatriation" sounds as if it was compulsory, but you mean by prevailing on him to return himself ?-^We point out to him that he has not succeeded, and is not likely to succeed here, and he ac- - quiesces in the view that he had better return home, 15651. Do you find he acts pretty generally on that . 'view ?—The failures, your Lordship means ? 15652. Yes ?—Yes. 15653. (Mr. Lyttelton.) But the fact that you do not assist those who do not assist themselves to the extent of 15s. or 20s. shows, I suppose, that you do not ex- patriate those who are in absolute destitution?—Very fern 15654. Is that because there are very few ?—There are very few who are unable to find the sort of fine that we impose din them—the 15si. to 20s1. 15655. Those who are unable to find it are, I suppose, •a greater drag on the community at large than anyone? —We send 'them. There are a very few who are unable to find it. 15656. But even i'f you are satisfied they cannot find it you nevertheless send them %—We dot. 15657. Taking the heads of your policy as I have gathered them this moaning, warning the people not to •come in the first instance who are undesirable, and getting rid of those who are undesirable when they are :so proved, is that policy dictated first by the desire to ■avoid the sufferings! of these people from useless j ourneys ;and useless sojourns here It is dictated by two views; "the view that it is undesirable to keep them here, and that if we send them back as undesirables they will 3ber able to repeat in their native villages their failure Bere, and'would deter other undesirables from coming here, 15658. Incidentally (I do not suggest that is a domi- nant motive at all) it also mitigates what might amount, if not dealt with, to a strain upon a very splendid (charity ?^—Yes, but if they were improvable cases we should not recoil from the strain. 15659. So I understand. I am speaking to a very representative member of the Jewish community, but as a member of the Jewish community you yourself, I understand, wquld welcome the exclusion, if feasible, of [undesirable Jews ?—That is so. I put it, undesirable aliens. I do not approach this question as a Jewish question, although I represent a Jewish body. 15660.: {Chairman.) "{Exclusion" mean® the word aliens." . You do not exclude the British Jew, because he is here already ?'—That is so, my Lord. 15661 '{Mr. tyttelton.) So far as you are concerned in < the problem that we are concerned with here as to whether there is any feasible legislation possible to effect£h;at end, you would be, as Chairman of the Jewish .Board' of Guardians, in favour of such legislation if ■ <&asible &f-33>es tri c ted, as far as I-have given an opinion, to undesirables. 15662. I quite follow that* You have told us very readily when you have not considered a topic, and I gather you have not considered,, or, at any rate, have not thought out, the machinery which you think would be effective to do it ?—I should not like to say I had not thought out the machinery, but. I do not feel myself sufficient of an expert to suggest to the Commission, who have had much more practical evidence than, I could offer, any particular method which I could advocate, , 15663, (Chairman,) Will you allow us to suggest to you that we should be obliged if you would give us that opinion? What can you suggest?—I think there is jio .successful method of keeping out undesirables except by placing an obligation upon the shipping companies who introduce them here. That practically covers my point of view entirely. As to how you are to place the obligation upon the shipping companies, I think th&t you could get really much better expert advice upon that matter than I could give you. It is a question of how long the bond which you are going to impose upon the shipping companies is to last; for how many months after they have introduced an immigrant are they to be responsible for his coming or not coming within thp category of an undesirable. 15664. What obligation would you put upon the shipping companies ?—That obligation of being respon- sible for him within a certain time. 15665. (Mr. Lyttdton.) For taking back anyone proved to be an undesirable within a shorter or longer period?1—Quite so. 15666. I see now you have considered the subject?— I have considered it as a dilletante, not as an expert. 15667. I see in your statement that you shadow forth a difficulty by comparing the number of ports in England with the number of ports in America?—Yes. 15668. You do not mention the number of American ports?—I thought everybody knew it. I think there are only five principal ports in America where elaborate machinery exists. 15669. Are there 26 principal ports in England? I was not aware of it?—But it does not matter. If you only established your arrangements at five principal ports then there would be, ad hoc, created a certain number of ports which would be utilised for this par- ticular business, where your arrangements did not exist. 15670. Not without a great deal of change ?—Possibly the condition of things in this country and in America is not analogous. 15671. I am not saying it is, but I am simply on the question as between the ports. Perhaps you have not gone into it, but you do not suggest there is a consider- able number of these immigrants arriving at 26 ports in England?—No, I do not. 15672. And if there was a change such as you are sug gesting, for instant, a change by which 10,000 im- migrants' landed at present at one port, would have a new port created for them that would involve a very expensive change and departure on the part of the shipping companies ?—Yes. 15673. That could not take place without people be- coming aware of it ?—It could not take place from day to day, but if you divert the stream from a place where it is difficult to get in, and there are other existing places where it is not difficult to get in, no doubt in time there would, grow up a new trade. 15674. That could be dealt with by an Order in Coun- cil, of course ?—That may be m. 15675. (Chairman.) You have spoken of the repatriar tion of these people by persuasion. Can you give us any estimate at all of the number of persons in, a year you would prevail upon to return ? I want to deduct them from the number of people arriving ?'—T am afraid I could not give you any figure which would be reliable, because that would involve a knowledge of what passed at each rota where these cases were investigated. 15676. It would be a valuable figure to us. Can you by inquiry give us anything like an estimate ?—I should not like to promise it, but I will inquire, 15677. (Sir Kenelm Vigby.) How do you suggest that the shipping companies could ascertain what aliens were undesirable on the ground of poverty, so as to justify imposing an obligation on them ?—I did not say thlat they could ascertain, but I did say that a standard would have , to be set up. during a certain period, and that their obligation would last that period.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 5|3 15678. That is to say that if within a certain period ait. immigrant became a public charge, then the bond oould be (enforced ?—That would be one way. 15679. Do you aft all know how that has worked in America?—I only quoted from the figures in the last report up to June, 1902. 15680. I rather meamt this particular method of ex- plosion—whether they have, as a matter of fact, enforced the obligations of the shipping companies ?:—I cannot feiin up the figure, but I will leave with you the report, in Whi&h the figure is given of how manycases the ship- ping companies become liable for. I believe it is in the Immigration -Cbmmissioniers^ Report, and I have a copy of it here, but I could not put my finger on it at the moment. 15681. In thlat case the obligation would arise after th$ alien had been here some time, and had proved him- self a proper subject for repatriation1—the kind of per- son whom you now repatriate ?—Ye®; but it is only my amateur suggestion of €he way of restricting the arrival of . undesirables. 15682. You have not considered, I suppose, any ques- tion of the difficulty that we should have in enforcing ob- ligations of that kind against foreign ships1?—Oh, yes, I have, and I have considered the alternative and the other suggestions which have been made to you, but they seem to me all hedged round with various difficulties. I donot think the consular certificate, which is another suggestion, is1 an easier o mot appear to be successful. You have tried another method—a method of what I may call restriction by voluntary effort?:—Only as regards poor Jews. 15687. Do you think you may fairly claim that your method of restricting the immigration of undesirables in that way has been, on the whole, successful ?—-I think so,- because in theory, we hiave discarded all the un- desirables. 15688. And you appeal to the fact that they do not come to you as evidence that no large amount of un- desirables on that ground remain, in the -country ?—rOn Mr^L. L* the g^dund of poverty ? Cohen. i56$9. Yes ?—Certainly not. 12 MarTl903 15690. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Only Jews?—Only Jews, * ——- 15691. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I am only speaking of Jewsi Your repatriation only takes place after you have had considerable experience; that is to say, the man cornea/to you, and you investigate the case, and you find he is not a fit person, and arrange for him to go back ?—He tells us he cannot succeed without charity. He has been here, say, nine months. We say; " If you cannot succeed here, and as you had nothing to bating: you here, you had better go back." He rather demurs the first time, but the second time lie agrees, and he goes. 15692. You had some difficulty at one time in getting; those people accepted when they landed at Hamburg and other places ?—-If that is so, it relates to a time when I was not concerned with the Board. 15693. Now you have made arrangements with the German police, and 'there is no difficulty?1—I think it has been going on for a great many years. 15694. Supposing they were sent back by operation of law, should you anticipate any difficulty in getting them sent back to their homes, or 'sent through foreign coun- tries ?—You would have to> pay their fare to the frontier- of their native country, whoever took them back. 15695. (Chairman.) I think Sir Kenelm Digby means , an unwilling passage on tihe part of the men, that is; to say, sending him back against hisi will, and, there- fore, in all probability, in the custody of somebody— at all events, he has to be forced ?—To the country to- which he m sent back. 15696. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Would there be inter- national difficulties ?—I do not think they would admit a Russian into Germany unless he had a through ticket. He has no right to be in Germany unless he has a passport. 15697. (Chairman.) You do not know what the Ger- man Government would say, supposing you ^ are forcing a German criminal on them against the crimi- nal's will ?—No ; of course I do not know. 15698. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to these. people who are rejected in America, have you had any experience of their being sent back to this country ?— I have inquired dsf the secretary with regard to what happened last year. There were some cases which we had sent, and which had been returned. There are very few such cases. I was prompted to in • quire into it by a question that was asked in the House of Commons, involving a reply from the ship- owners of Liverpool. I do not think we have had more than 20 cases other than those—that is to say. cases we had not sent, but which were returned from America, and then applied for assistance to us to ibe sent home. 15699. When they are rejected by America, do they go straight back to the country from which they have* come?—As far a,s> I know, they go back in the ship- that brought them. 15700. They may come across to England?—But if they did not appeal for assistance we should kin m nothing about them. 15701. You have only had a few cases?—Yes, very few. 15702. With regard to the numbers, you objected to that Board of Trade figure of 22,000 for 1902?— I did not make any objection, but I said it was n«t a conclusive figure. I should not like to base any conclusion on those figures as to the number of people who remain here, although it says that they are stalid not to be en route for anywhere else1. That was «x- pHained to us by Mr. Llewellyn Smith, who gave evidence on the first day that 22,000 is the num&er of persons who are not stated to have through tickets- 15703. (Major Bvans-Gordon.) Arriving in the Port * of London only?—Those figures must be vitiated by the people we repatriate. 15704. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The way it is arrived at ' is this: Under the Act of William IY. there has been - an arrangement made that the shipping companies should give the lists in certain ports of persons who have througil tibketss—not give the individual names .' and destinations., but simply# give in the aggregate tho number who have through tickets ?—Yes.5a?- ROYAL CO: ..... vv-v "tin .......... "■ >N ON ALIEN IMMIGKATION -*1 .J Jt v• '• r "Vr'^v. 't?v ^-Vh'.\ \*v, - 15705." In addition to that, th^e,^% . fadiim?*' ber of persons who are ascertained .% the authorities yyZQf.—\ by ..inquiry to be on their ^y i& Airierica t—Yes; *' * ~ v * I5706.*f/Therefoie, ly&u have on %he biie side th^ per- sons ^hdiare started to be; en route,* or are girofessiiig to; be em route, and- on the* other; side ;the persons who are not (.stated to be «n> route?—Yes. ' : 15707i'5Those persons who are"not stated to be" en;, route ;jincliide the great mass of people coming to Ldndoti'?-—I presume they would. 15708. They do not come to those ports where those arrangements prevail.?—I presume not; • , 15709. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The whole figures for the whole of England for those not said to be en route, are 29,792 for 19.02 ?—Those figures are only useiul to me -in emphasising my point that the number of poor: amongst them has been remarkably small, because if it were otherwise the Board of Guardians, as regards Jews, would feel the effect of it, whereas you have an increasing number of aliens recorded by the Board of Trade as not" being en route, and yet you have not had a corresponding increase in, the cases presented to the Board of Guardians. (Sir Kendm Digby.) T'hie arrangement which the Board of Trade have made with the shipping companies does not extend to London. The agreement that they should state whether they are en route or not, in order to escape the obligations of the Act of William IV., does not extend to London, but only extends to the uorthern ports. (Chairman.) If there is no such agreement, do the London figures include people who are en route? (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Certainly. The 22,000 which is the figure for London includes an unknown quantity of persons who are actually en route, although not said to be so. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No distinction is made in London at all. 15710-. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) No. Therefore, the point is that this figure of 22,000 is of very little value for the purpose. of actually ascertaining whether the alien is ,actually going on?—Yes ; you come back to the point at which I started. -15711. (Chairman.) You prefer your relief test to anything?—Yes, from my point of view. 15712. (Mv. Vallance.) It would be interesting if you will be good enough to state roughly the form ol the relief which you adopt under the Jewish Board of Guardians, other than apprentices and loans?— We give temporary relief in cases of sickness, and we do give to people who are engaged in trades which are slack , in the winter, and who have got large families, assistance ; we also give assistance to a workman who, for instance, has broken down in health, and is unable to continue as a workman, but who desires to start in business. We give that man, a start very often, partly by an outright gift and partly by a loan, and the result in those cases is that he very often repays, the loan and contracts another one. We classify our cases in more precise terms than I have given. For in- stance, in 1902, of the 4,806 cases dealt with during that year—cases permanently helpless, 193 ; cases re- lieved while the father was in gaol, 6 ; cases of ille- gitimacy, 2; unmarried women, 70 ; widows, 635; deserted wives, 306 ; cases relieved while the husband is in lunatic asylum, 18; orphans and deserted children, 42 ; general body of cases not comprised in the above, arid having an adult male head of the family, 2,638 ; assisted to emigrate, 711; wives assisted only to join their husbands or to return to their native country, 185/ 15713.7 Shall I be correctly putting it if I say that you are5 largely engaged in preventive and remedial work, in" developing' possibilities, and so saving these pobr people from recourse to the Poor Law ?—That is our view. 15714. The work of the Jewish Board of Guardians differs from the Poor Law in that the Guardians of Poor Law are precluded from giving relief in most of the forms in which you give it P—That is so. r15715. With reference to the figures in Table LXXX., taking 1902, you have 380 foreigners- arrived during - the year. I take it that 380 would not be representa- tive of the whole year's .paupers, inasmuch as they would have to be in the country six months before they are accepted?—That is so, except that included in tli^t , 380 there are .;26Q case$ which were repatriated^,, and] we do noi^i^ajfce... thajb.. _ six-jponihly stipulation, itn„ those cases. ;<-15716,; Witlv reference to repatriation, taking. ,19QC|, * which, of course, was an exceptional year, I find the^f were some .1,739 cases repatriated, and probably that w'0uld represent' 5,000 individuals, would it no$, rdughly ?—I should say so. 15717. And they were repatriated at a east of some £5,000 ?—Yes ; but £1,234 of that sum was contributed, by the persons repatriated. 15718. This would be additional to your contribu- tions I take it?—-No ; you are quoting from the figures at th© bottom of page 4, are you not? Where do you get the £5,000 from? , The cost of re- patriation to the charity was £3,782 17,s. 8d. in 1900, and provided by the immigrants £1,234 13s. 15719. It comes out to the same thing?—'But the ' cost to the charity was £3,782, and not £5,000. 15720. With reference to repatriation, a certain number of these would be undesirables, would they not?—Failures. 15721. They would be persons who probably would have been excluded by any restriction law?—Except those who were failures here. 15722. Many of those who are failures are those who would be accepted probably even by America, would they not, and fail afterwards ?—I should think so. 15723. Consequently there is a certain proportion of those who have honestly tried and have failed, as well as those who are undesirable?—Undoubtedly. 15724. With reference to the Board of Trade figures, which show an increase of the immigration into the Port of London, from 16,000 in 1901 to 22,000 in 1902, would that increase in any respect, so. far as your expe- rience goes, be attributable to any revised arrangement as regards tickets?—Lord James asked me earlier in the day whether I was able to account for that increase, and I said I could not account for it in any way except by suggesting that the attractions in America, by rea- son of the prosperity, there, had. become greater. I am afraid I cannot give you any other answer. I do not know any reason for the increase. 15725. Of course, this question of immigration, has been suggested as contributing, if it has not been the cause of the congestion in the East End of London. The congestion there has resulted in a condition ot overcrowding which we should all admit is appalling. Have you, from your experience, reason to conclude that if the present law were uniformly enforced it would suffice to relieve that congestion as regards overcrowding?—I think that if the law had been en- forced since 1891, when I think it was passed, the con- dition of things which now exists as regards over- crowding would never have been reached ; and I do agree with the evidence which Dr. Shirley Murphy and Dr. Loane, I think, gave as to the inadequacy of the bye4aws, especially before the creation of the Borough Councils, and as to the want of enforcement —more particularly the latter. Here is a return—I daresay the Commission have seen, it—published by th@ London County Council as to the working of the system of registration of lodging-houses in all the Borough Councils. It seems to show that there has not been much done during the last year. The number of in- spectors does not seem to be very great in many dis- tricts, and the number of prosecutions is also very small. 15726. Judging by your answer to a question from Major Gordon, I take it that you somewhat hesitate to' answer my question, which might appear to touch upon the Christian missions, but it has been sug- gested (not in this Inquiry) that the East End mis- sions to the Jews, and corresponding missions, are an attractive force to foreign immigrants. Do you ex- press any opinion upon that at all ?—I do not think my opinion is very valuable, but I should think they have not an attractive force to the foreign immigrant; but they are a temptation to him when he is here- 15727. It has been suggested to me that the Jews who attend the missions are mostly those who .have been rejected by the Jewish Board of Guardians. Would you accept that?—I could not speak positively as., to that without, some, facts, I told Mr. Norman, I think,. that we did not bid against the missions, arid that if an applicant to lis said he should go -to" the missions, we would let him go.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 545 15728. Has there, in your hearing, ever been made -by an applicant for relief such a statement as this : u If you do not help us we will go to the missions "? —'Yes; I thave just said if we were threatened, or if it was put to us in the form of a threat, that the -applicant was going to the missionaries, we should let him go. We should not bid against the missions, which would be what it would amount to. 15729. It has been said the Jewish Board of Guar- dians offer to pay passages back to Russia, and the -offer has been refused. Consequently, they have gravi- tated to the missions, and1 that the missions are now used as a threat by a certain class of Jews?—I do .not think we get many such cases ; but where we liave had such cases we have acted in the way I have .described. 15730. (Chairman.) Have you found, when persons ♦come for relief to you, that they ever complain that 'they cannot get house accommodation ?—We only find this, that if we find them occupying too few rooms, -and we say we refuse to give them assistance unless they will move into more rooms, they say it is very diffi- cult; but if we put sufficient pressure upon them we generally get our way. 15731. Do you find there is increasing difficulty for them in Stepney to find' house accommodation ?—I do not think it worse now than it was 12 months ago, or, I might even say, two years ago. 15732. Has it increased within your cognisance?— J should say that possibly the rents are a trifle higher. If you look to our reports you will find that in the case of fixed allowances we have increased the average given per week 3d. in each case during each of the last two years, because we have been under the im- pression that rents are higher, and that would in- dicate that the conditions are more difficult. 15733. From what you know of these people, would it be a great hardship to impose on them the obliga- tion not to live within those districts? Supposing it was possible (putting it merely hypothetically) to <3lose Stepney, and say we will not allow residence to be taken up within certain districts, what would be the effect upon immigrants?—I think the effect upon those who are here at present would be, for -the time being, to inflict considerable hardship. But in the case of the Jews I think the Board' would be prepared to assist them if measures were adopted to try by the application of existing legislation or by "some. /r&sk legislation, to mitigate the overcrowded 'conditions in any particular district in which the Jews live. 15734. I want my question to refer to the future incomers. Supposing at the Port of London they come in, and the question is put to them: "What is your destination?" and they say, "High Street, "Stepney." "That is forbidden to yon." Never mind "whether that is feasible or not, what would be the effect, do you think, on persons coming here ? What •would become of them?—I think, if they knew that when they -started, some of them would not come. 15735. Therefore, that would be a preventive?—It might be ; but that is conjectural. 15736. If it would be a preventive, in your opinion, It would be desirable ?—I can only give an opinion that it is desirable to keep out the undesirables. If I were to answer in the affirmative such a suggestion as that, it would be tantamount to saying I approve of keeping out desirable persons. 15737. He has no other residence but Stepney. He is coming to the colony you have gathered in Step- ney, and, if he comes, would it be a great hardship to him to say he must go to Hackney, or somewhere ♦else ?—It would be a hardship until there had been a community grown up familiar with this traditions and Mr. L. L, language, and sympathising with him. Cohen. 15738. But there must be a beginning ?—Quite so. 12 Mar7l90l. As I have indicated, the community is endeavouring ——. to create these nuclei in various places. I think it could be better done from within than without. 15739. I was going to suggest to you, could not that beginning, or those beginnings, be fostered by your community a great deal?—I think they could, and I think they are very anxious to do it; but it is not easy. The desire of every foreign nationality is to reside with its nationals. You see that in the case of the Italians in Hatton Garden, and the French in Soho, and so on. 15740. We understand your evidence is confined en- tirely to persons of your own religion ?—Yes, entirely ; poor Jews. 15741. You have not spoken of the Italians and the French ?—No, I have no information. 15742. Have you heard or known any change with regard to the numbers of the criminal classes and the criminal alien?—I do not think I can give you any information upon that. I think the United Syna- gogue, perhaps, could supply it. I have only know- ledge of such oases as we have to: relieve while the wage-earning member of the family is in prison, and those cases last year were only six. In the previous year they were 12. But that would not give you very reliable information. Six cases were relieved while the father was in gaol in 1902, 12 in 1901, 13 in 1900, 15 in 1899. We do not deal with the reforma- tory or industrial boys any more, and we do not deal with the criminals except when we are asked to> assist a discharged prisoner to return to the Continent, which we do at the request of the United Synagogue, and then they are merged in the larger class of repatriated cases. We do not keep a schedule of repatriated dis- charged prisoners. 15743. Your knowledge is general; but what should yon say from that general knowledge? How do the alien immigrants, with whom we ha^e been dealing, compare with the native person of the same class of life as to honesty, and so on?—I ishould say they are honest, and the persons whom we deal with at the Board of Guardian® are a. law-abiding class. . ^ 15744. It improbable there has been a strange increase in alien criminals in the last year" or two ; but would yon attribute that to these cases we have been dealing with of the Russian-Polish Jew, or not?—I have no knowledge on the subject, but I fancy, if you make close inquiries, you will find a large number of them are Ger- mans. 15745. Bo you know why they come over here so enor- mously %—No, I cannot say. Perhaps tlhey have re- ceived a little more attention this year than they would have received in ordinary years. Their cases have been published, which, in previous years would not be con- sidered of any interest. 15746. {Major Evans-Gordon.) The percentages have been steadily going up I have no real knowledge of that. 15747. (Chairman.) That is all we have to ask you, and we are mucih obliged to you for your evidence, and the great assistance you have given us ?—I understand, my Lord, you would like the figures of Table LXXXIII. produced for 1902, and I will endeavour to get them., and also endeavour to divide the classes of repatriated per- sons. 15748. You have given us enough in that small table at the corner of page 4, except that you put repatriation and emigration together. I do- not know that I care much about that now, because I have got the figures $— You would like the other return brought up to 1902 ? 15749. Yes ?—That shall be done. Mr. Nathan S. Joseph, called ; and Examined. 15750. (Lord Rothschild.) Are you a member of the "Visitation Committee of the United Council, and, as •such, are you able to give Lord James the information lie requires about the Jewish criminal population in prisons?—I am not a member of the Visitation Com- mittee now, but I 'have all their figures. 15751. You are connected with various Jewish chari- ties?—Yes. I am chairman of the Conjoint Committee of the Russo-Jewish Committee and Jewish Board of 6144 Guardians, and chairman of the Board's Sanitary Com- p inittee, and have had for 50 years an intimate know- Joseph. ledge of the East End of London and of the Jews residing there. 15752. You are also architect of the Guinness Trusit and the Iveagh Trust in Dublin, and you have designed dwellings for the Four per cent. Industrial Dwellings Company, and for the housing schemes of the City f-the - evils' resulting therefrom'. The burial statistics of the Jewish community indicate, with a. fair ,; app^Qx^matio^.to'- aiQcumcy, tha't the Jewish , population of London was, in.l880, ;,about 45,000. They further show tliat it had increased in 1900 to about 98,600. The difference—53,500—represents not only the influx of ali^«, but the^ natural inoremet&t of the original popu- lation of 1880 by excess' of -bi:N3h-i%te> over death-rate. '■ The increase of. the Jewishpopul.ation of London due to the[jinflux, of: aliens would thu& not exceed 37,000, and ... thisrwould' also include the • Britislnborn progeny; of the j ali8^s'^rri^ingum.1t^e!a:eaiwo:!de<5a^^'^;^?^^;Thm there is a footnote, showing? how the!figures jar e .arrived^at.e -" On the whole, it may be fairly estimated that the average increase of the Jewish population of London due to alien. , immigration; and to births consequent; thereon does not / exceed 2,000 per iannum. If, therefore, it be true, as lately stated in Parliament by. Mr. S. F., Ridley (the seconder of the Amendment to the Address)'—this. was written last May, and. it was sent "to the Commission last. May, so/that it' ds rather out of date—" that 71,000 foreis;ners> arrived in England last' year, ( admittedly to reside here^-tfee, bulk of these^-rindeed, all but about .* 2,000—must- have been inon-Jews. The inference is that , the figure alleged^ 71,000, being based upon a fallacious interpretationt of. the Be#rd. of Trade Returns, is' alto- gether fallacious. The Census Returns of 1901 -show a larger, increafSe. of, JEtussianis and Poles since 1891 than the foregoing statistics "would justify." 15754/- {Chair.f(ian.) Your.first, figure as to the; in- crease^ refers . to Jewish ^population, irrespective, of ,, whether they are fEngSh; ore aliepsi ^WQuite so, because ' they are' taken frOfm our burial statistics. 15755. There are allfens, such' -a'is ■Italians, Germans, French, and Swiss, and Lutherans-—nothing to do with the? Jewish population at all %—That is exactly what I ( say heTe iv'rjfyflth^refocre, it be true, as lately statedan Parliament by Mr. S. F. Ridley (the seconder or- the Amendment to the Address), that 71,000 foreigners ar- rived ift England last year, { admittedly to reside here*.' the bulk of these1—'indeed, all but about 2,000'—must have, 'been, non-Jews." That is what I stated in the thirj, paragraph. ■. ,. ; 15.756. But. when you say that the 71,000 foreigners ; statedibyMr, Ridleymust be wrong, I .do not follow it; because they may /not be. Jews at a 11?—Quite so, that is my contention, that not more than 2,000 -could have been Jews.; ■ lB757'ih(MrrLytteUon.) I do not see where Mr. Kid- ley's fallacy is, because he never said anything about Jews at all?—We know that the allegation* generally, ds that these are alien Jews, (M'dfdr Evans-Gordon.) No, we do not admit that at all. > ' ■■ • ' f ' (C%hifman.) No, becaus'e we have Italians, Roman Catholics, and Germans. 15758, (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) You would say the fal- lacy is \in,t)ie wq-rds!,. " .admittedly to reside here Yes.,c. ,^hW.W continue my paper :s " The Census re- turns of 1901 show a larger increase of Russians and Poles since 1891 than the foregoing .statistics' would justify. This maybe due to the fact that the organised help given by the Jewish community in 1901 secured ac- curate Census returns of the Jewish population for the first time ; while in 1891 the enumerators, having little or no knowledge of the language of the immigrants,'had . .; to accept imperfect papers, and the figures were neces- ,o. v /, ^arilyrtifoaccuratei For -example, the figure, given for the, (j - Russian--.settlers- of 1891-was only 12,034, obviously san. understatement. The figure for 1901 is given as 38,133, and approximates to the foregoing estimate ; but if the. first fiaure .is rupder ,the mark, the difference (26,099) b etwegr^th e , ;twq doesoi^t fairly indicate the increase betvveepL rl891 ancl 19.01, ISut is in excess." ^ 15759*:^ChMrincm^=Why do you say that supposing,, > theice had been a very very large increase WBut not in Jewish aliens, because we know there must have been more than 12,000 Russian settlers in the year 1891. 15760. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Why - do you know- that that I was honorary secretary.' of the Russo^ Jewish Committee at that time; in faoty I have- been either that or chairman of the Joint Relief: Committee for the whole period of the 21 years since* 181>2; and, therefore, 'I know something .about the nunber of the. Russian immigrants. 15761.;Vallance.) Iii 1891. there was also co- operation on the part ;of ' the, ) Jewish community witk the. Census tables ?—Very (slight. It:was not at all sys- tematic. ' Then, to continue1 my paper ; " Eyen if it, were true that the Russians (doubtless, for the most party? Jews),have increiaised , lay 26,099 in. the last decade, it would only mean about 2,600 per annum, no serious- increase to the whole population of London. But, as a matter of fact, only a small proportion of this number (8,271) were included in the number of persons assisted by the Russo-Jewish Committee ,as settlers here ; so either, the alleged increase is in excess of the truth, or the greater proportion of them could not have been at . any time in necessitous circumistances. Although the- anti-alienists declare that their movement is no>tfwLti- , Jewish, it is clear that, as no allegation is made against the French, Italians, Germans, or, indeed, against any immigrants, other than Poles and Russiains,' the griev- ance-is confined to the incursion of foreign Jews into» the East of London, where it is alleged the native popu- lation has been ousted by the foreign, who unfairly compete witli them, and introduce a low standard of living." (Chairman.) Do you agree . with that,. Major Evans- Gordon? (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, not for a monient; I am going to ask a question; about- that. (Witness.) You have only had evidence about Jews. (Mctjtir 'Evtins-Gordons) Many of them are Jew's-, but as to Our allegations only being confined to fhem, 1 deny it absolutely and entirely. The most serious alle- gations we !have brought against the aliens have been against the- French and Germans, and all sorts of hor- rible people ;in Soho. ((Jhfxirman.) It is due to the witness to say that he- wrote tliis in May last, and the case, as launched origi- nally, was principally against, the Jews, (Witness,) I need hardly remind your Lordship that fully1 nineteen-twentieiths of the evidence! has been in; regard to Jewish aliens. 15762. If you say that up to May last, when you wrote- this paper, that was so, that is all you need say, L think?—That is^ sufficient. -" The alleged evil is thus materially narrowed, for the alien question is thus Re- duced simply to au local., one, affecting not the Empire,, nor even the Metropolis, but solely the Borough of Stepney. The question is,-Are the evils alleged true,, even, in that borough, Uone ? And, if they are true, are they .such evils as to.: warrant exceptional legislation that would' exclude the class of immigrants causing the supposed evils P Assuming that many houses, -event many streets in the Borough of Stepney, formerly oc- cupied by British Christians, are- now occupied .by- Polish or "Russian Jews,-who have suffered injury? It is certainly not true that any British tenant has ever been forcibly ejected to make room for one of the aliens. There has been no displacement in the sense of ex- propriation; There has been a replacement, the con- sequence of natural causes.- In Stepney, as in most otner parts of London near the City borders, there had long been a gradual but steady rise in rents, conse- quent on the erection of business premises, factoriesr and • warehouses on sites formerly occupied by small tenements. It was this, cOupled with the increased facilities given, by railways and tram-cars, which in- duced the migration to the eastern suburbs of large numbers of the British workmen of the Tower Hamlets,, who could find cheaper and better accommodation fur- ther east. Moreover, several of the old industries of the neighbourhood, such as the weaving, the sugar- baking,' and s the casual, dock labour, had gradually disappeared, and- with them the workers. The places thus (gradually vacated by the migrating British work- men were taken by the new foreign settlers, who were attracted there by the: proximity to their own country- men and to the synagogues and Jewish schools; it was a, gradual replacement. If the new settlers had not taken the places so vacated, and paid the high rents which the demand warranted, the houses wouldMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 647 long since have been demolished and their sites occu- pied by business premises, warehouses', and factories. The recent increase of rents in Stepney—which is •common to> every district .of London—is doubtless, to some sijiall;, extent, due to;the demand created by the :new settlers ; but it is. mainly due to the .fact that the; = ■vacant site; of a house in the locality is worth more as ground rent* than the house itself realises at :a rack rent. There are other secondary causes for the high rents, . such as the general rise in the capital cost of .such properties every time they change hands, the increase of local rates, and the difficulty encountered by the slum-owner in ; satisfying the proper sanitary requirements ..jpf the local/authorities ; but the main • c^Lise is,jthe, struggle for existence of the dwelling /^gai^st the shop, factory, or warehouse which threatens •'to displace it. When the displacement actually occurs -^-as'^s occuriing^at-the present moment by til©enlarge- ment of a large brewery in Mile End—the .want of housing accommodation is further accentuated. Not onlyC do the. dwellings disappear, the demand for new -house accommodation; meeting with no supply, but at Te^M^oUl'e of the workers in the new or extended fac- * tor$ have to be housed in its immediate neighbour- hood; and the demand! for housing is thusjurther in- creased, rents still further rising with the' augmented . demand;.. and .diminished supply. The same phe- nomenon has occurred in all localities bordering on -the City, and Stepney is no exception. The problems jovercr owding and high rents in the East of London y natives The new settlers are universally acknow- ledged to be peaceful,, quiet, law-abiding people, and 'as they axe remarkably, sober they give little trouble to the police." Then the next paragraph is not now -strictly trile ; it.'was true last year, and, if you will allow me, I will correct it as Ii go° on. " It may be "here stated that the proportion of the Jewish criminal population is abnormally small. It is probably ah out /two-thirds of that of the general population. The United Synagogue, which ha.s a special organisa^ion •for the visitation of Jewish prisoners, publishes annual ■statistics on that subject. These show that there were .348 Jews committed and under its visitation in 1901." 15763. Is that: for Great Britain?—Not the whole of Ctreiat-' Britain.' 'For- London and part of the Home' bounties: " Taking roughly the whole Jewish popula- tion of England and Wales as 120,000, this would give the 2,677?—Yes, I will refer to. it, but I think that is so. " It is obviously difficult to- say, on his arrival, whether an immigrant is, or is not, likely to become a self-supporting citizen. Even the actual possession of cash would not be much indication, for a middle-aged man with £100 would probably be a* less eligible immigrant than a penniless man in the prime of youth, possessing intelligence, industry, and muscle. The only one of the United States' methods of restriction that might possibly be adopted in this, country with advantage would be that which compels, the steamship companies to give a bond to the State, whereby they contract to re-ship to Europe at their own. cost any immigrant who, within a year of arrival, be- comes a public charge. Such a bond would induce the companies to exercise greater caution before accepting passengers at the Continental ports of embarkation, and the bond might be made to cover not only those physically or mentally incapable, but also other un- desirables, such as Anarchists and persons of the crimi- nal class. Possibly, no special machinery would be needed for effecting the repatriation of such undesir- ables. The sworn information of the Commis'sioner of' Police (or, in the provinces, the High Constable), coun- tersigned by the Home Secretary, might suffice for the enforcement of the bond ; and, to prevent abuse, there might be a right of appeal to the Extradition Court. It is, however, obvious that the measure suggested would be open to various objections on grounds of public- policy, and it is doubtful whether its resulting advan- tages would not be overweighted by its disadvantages."' (Chairman.) Is there anything else you would ask Mr. Joseph in what we call examination-in-chief, Lord Rothschild ? (Lord Bothschild.) There is the question of the over- crowding, which is the most important paper Mr. Joseph has prepared. (Witness.) That is rather a large question, and it will take a long time. It is the result of my personal experience.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 549 THIRTY-SIXTH DAY. Monday, 16th March 1903. present : The Rt. Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). The Rt. Hon. Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. 15784*. (Chairman.) I have received some figures from the Board of Trad© as to immigration which are import- ant, and I think they will he of considerable public in- terest. The figures represent a comparison of the immi- gration of Russians, Poles, and Roumanians between the years, 1902 and 1901. The total immigration of Russians and Poles in 1902 to certain ports that I will give was 28,511, Romanians 1,282, making a total of 29,793 Rus- sians, Poles, and Roumanians. In 1901 the comparative numbers were—Russians and Poles 20,914, Roumanians 1,162, making a total of 22,076, an excess of 5,717 of Russians, Pole®, and Roumanians immigrated into this country to certain ports in 1902 over 1901. This immi- gration represents the ports of London, Grimsby, New- Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. William Vallance, Esq. haven, Hull, and other ports, which are very few. The great bulk of the immigration is to London, where excess of 1902 over 1901 was 5,931 of Russians, Poles, and Roumanians. In Grimsby the excess was 2,300, and other ports make up the difference. Then it is necessary also to state that all this immigration comes substan- tially from four ports, Bremen, Hamburg, Libau, and Rotterdam, the other ports only amounting to about 300 out of the 29,000 I have mentioned; so it mlfy be taken in the result that London—principally the re- cipient—Grimsby, Newhaven, and Hull are- receiving substantially the whole of this traffic from Bremen, Hamburg, Libau, and Rotterdam. Mr. Nathan S. Joseph, re-called; and further Examined. 15785. (Lord Rothschild.) You wish to read a paper on the subject of overcrowding and the remedies you sug- gest?—Yes. " The overcrowding of the Borough of Stepney is only a part, and a very small part, of the general overcrowding of London, and the immigration of aliens is only an insignificant contributing factor in regard to the entire problem. Indeed, overcrowding is not itself the malady ; it is the consequence of a malady, the malady being the general shortage of house accom- modation to meet the natural growth of the London population by the large excess of births over deaths. In the decade 1891-1901 the excess amounted to 490,977 souls, and sufficient dwelling-houses were not built to keep pace with this large natural growth. After allow- ing for migration from London, which, according to the Census, must have reached 181,749, there still remained a net increase in the population of London of 309,228 in the 10 years." 15786. (Chairman.) Do you allow for the emigration from London and immigration into London 1—Oh, yes ; I show the balance; these figures are taken from the Census Return. 15787. You ought to have said after allowing for emigration and immigration, because there iff going and coming ?—And also for the increase of births over deaths. 15788. (Major Evans-Gordon.) By "from London" you mean into (greater London, or into the country ? Do jou mean emigration ? 15789. Into the suburbs ?—Migration from the pro- vinces into the Census London. 15790. The movement from Census London outwards we are talking of ?—Yes ; after allowing for that. 15791. (Chairman.) Your excess of births over deaths •mounts to over 490,000?—Yes. 15792. When you take the Census Returns between 1891 and 1901, there was a population of 309,000 in excess?—Yes, 309,228. 15793. That shows, surely, that more people went out of London than came into it ?—That was so. " The mag- nitude of the problem may be appreciated by the feet that all the housing efforts of the London County Council up to September, 1900, had resulted in providing dwell- ings for less than 32,000 persons ; so that, after its 10 years' work, the Council had succeeded in housing only about a tenth of the increase of these' 10 years. In other words, if its volume of housing work had been even 10 times as groat as it actually was, the accommo- dation per head of population would have remained as inadequate as when it first commenced that work. The subjoined figures, taken from the Census returns of 1901, give the number of inhabited houses in London, as com- pared with the population during the three last decen- nial periods, and the comparative increases per cent, at each period. 1871: Inhabited houses, 418,802; population, 3,261,396. 1881: inhabited houses, 488,116 ; increase per cent., 14*3 ; population, 3,830,297 ; increase per cent., 17*4. 1891: Inhabited houses, 574,146; in- crease per cent., 10*8; population, 4,228,317 j increase percent., 10*4. 1901: Inhabited houses, 574,346; in- crease per cent., 6*4; population, 4,537,541; increase per cent., 7*3. Total increase per cent, of inhabited houses. 31*5; total increase per cent, of population, 35*1. These figures indicate that, while the London, population has increased 35*1 per cent, in the 30 years, 1871-1901, the number of inhabited houses has increased only 31*5 per cent. In other words, 20,674 more houses would have had to be built to bring up the accommoda- tion per head of population to the accommodation of 1871, when there was already overcrowding." 15794. Do1 you know in this return what is the defini- tion of an inhabited house ?—I am informed that an inhabited house for Census purposes is a house divided by party walls from the adjoining houses. 15795. Take a Rowton House building, that would be one house?—Yes. 15796. Then you would expect some diminution in number, because those have increased very much since 1871 ?—I have a note referring to that, if yon will allow me to read it. " Though it .must be admitted that the large number of tenements provided in block buildings , renders the comparison not quite accurate, yet the num- ber of those buildings is not sufficiently great to mate- rially affect the result. Moreover, there are counter- vailing facts in the smaller size rooms in these dwell- ings as compared with those in inhabited houses of the ordinary kind that would probably balance the slight, inaccuracy." 15797. (Mr. Vallance.) Are these inhabited houses the Census figures ?—Yes. " The above shortage (3*6 per cent.) appeal's at first sight insufficient to account for the lamentable extent of overcrowding in certain parts of Landon, but it must be remembered that ihe evil exists mainly in the lower strata of the. population. The Census summary (pp. x. and xi.) shows that the classes above the lowest—the prosperous wage-earners—were Mr. iV. S. Joseph. 16 Mar. 1903.55o .1,0YAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. N. S. better housed in 1901 than in 1891, and that they en- Joseph. joyed a generally higher standard of domestic comfort, TVfl~7~iQAQ as indicated by the larger number of rooms held per. Mai- 1903. family. As the total accommodation was already in- sufficient in 1891, this diminished crowding -of, the-more favoured working class would naturally give rise to the greater crowding of the less favoured, and thus the shortage of house accommodation for the lowest class would become further accentuated, so producing the disgraceful condition of overcrowding found in South- ward St. Pancras, Notting Dale, Camberwell, and Step- ney. Another point to be considered in relation to over- crowding is that the main increase in the number of inhabited houses is in outlying districts of London, and not in the great industrial centres. In these centres the dwellings have been supplanted by shops, warehouse®, factories, factory extensions, and railway works. All these require workers, some of whom must reside near the scene of their labours, and so the' residue of dwell- ings in the chief industrial centres become more con- gested than ever. The worst kind of over crowding, ; - in which a tenement or even a single room is made the- - abode of more than one family through one lodger taking in another lodger to overcrowd a home already more than fully tenanted, is doubtless due to the general rise -r Mr rents; ' The. .poorest- class of lodger is only enabled > -> to eke out the increa? 1 weekly rent by an illicit under- • 'letting to a lodger p. rer than himself, unable to rmi.iy -r .and furnish his own room. A certain proportion of tJio increase in the scale of rents is quite reasonable. The cost of land is greater than formerly, the price of build- ing is higher, the local rates have steadily risen in recent times, and the cost of satisfying the just requirements of the sanitary authority is greater. Unfortunately, all these circumstances are discouraging to new build- ing schemes, which might, if they came into existence, compete with the old worn-out houses. Failing new buildings, the old not only survive, but enjoy all the privileges which usually accompany monopoly and scarcity. But even all these combined facts would be '' • insufficient to justify the great advance in rents, a con- ' r 1 "siaerab'le proportion of that advance being due to the rapid growth of a low class of slum-jebbers and slum- owners, who, by a process of ' cornering,' trade on the necessities produced by scarcity, and create fictitious values for houses that are ripe for condemnation, and fpr; short unexpjred ^ leases, that would , otherwise be M klhiost worthless." By frequent sa-lbs and re-sales "of these wretched properties—usually at an advanced price at every deal—they bring about-, corresponding increases in the weekly rentals. There are further secondary factors of the housing problem which should not be ignored—the demolition of houses for street improve- ; . ments,, schools, and other . necessary public buildings, ; K'';We rnfiu^J of ^^orfeers from the rural districts,' and the great tendency to, enlarge business premises in ; such a . manner as to absorb the upper storeys, formerlyused . for dwelling purposes." I have some figures relating to these demolitions ; I do not know whether you would like to have them now. 15798. (Chairman.) I do not think you had better "break the sequence of your statement, which is very in- teresting?—" How, then, can the housing difficulty, c uiwith 4t^> overcrowding; horrors, be met ?: 'Not merely by building, for :no • building: schemes, even if all the : agencies, municipal, commercial, and philanthropic, were to double their efforts can ever hope, within a reason- able time, to meet much less overtake, even the natural increase of the existing London population. These , ^efforts should certainly be encouraged—even artificially encouraged—not with the hope that their supply would rapidly meet the demand, but so that the new dwellings may eventually supersede the slum houses, that they- may create an improved standard for the poor man's home, and that they may, in the end, by a healthy com- petition crush out of existence the slum-owner aiid the . slum-jobber. But the remedy will not be found solely in bricks and mortar. The causes of the evil are so numerous that many remedies will be needed. Time will also be needed, for the - evils are the results of many generations of continuous neglect, and a whole generation may elapse before the evils of overcrowding are fully stamped out. London, ^ ^wMbhrdias^beeoiW to be depopulated, ihmainl^iby the' removal of thotee-factories. which have no- special reason to .exist,, in the metropolis, and by the consequent removal of their workers. Regarded as an Imperial question, the unceasing growth of the metro- polis is, from many points of view, a serious danger, while the consequent depletion of the provinces is an undoubted evil. From a cu-uiiiierc-ial-standpoint it is sufficient for London to remain the emporium of British trade and the entrepot and exchange for the world's commerce, and to retain only such factories as are needed for its own local wants. London is so distant from the sources of iron and coal supply that all processes of manufacture in the metropolis are handicapped by that local disadvantage. Such factories as the potteries of Lambeth and the soap works of Bow and Stratford, which pollute the air of London with their smoke and smells, have no local reason for existence, and there are scores of other manufactures which could be more profit- ably carried on in the provinces. Happily, the ten- dency to remove factories into the country has already been started. The high London rates have already crawn away many of these from town. This tendency should be artificially encouraged. The change cannot be effected suddenly. The capital embarked in London factories is so enormous that no reasonable man would wish a rapid change that would spell ruin to many branches of industry. But in the • -busiest^ centres of London, where sites have a growing value due to high- class environment, there exist great factories, ofmhich the site-value exceeds the whole value of the buildings, machinery, plant, and goodwill thereon, sites which tlie owners could profitably sell, devoting paFt^of the pro^- ceeds to the establishment of new factories, with all the newest improvements, in places where fuel is cheaper, land more ..plentiful, th;e rates lower, amd the cost of transit for goods smaller. Such instances of removal have frequently occurred already. What, then/ can be done to discourage the continued existence of un- necessary factories in London, and, on the other hand, to encourage the building of working-class dwellings? By increasing in London the burden of rates on the former and removing part of the burden from the latter. According to the existing law of rating the burden is proportionately greater on the dwelling-house than on the factory, and that position should be reversed. Under the Valuation of Property (Metropolis) Act of 1869 (3rd scnetlule) the rateable value of a house under £20 per annum is three-quarters of the gross value, while that of a factory is only two-thirds; that is, for every shil- ling in the £ of gross assessment-, the workman's dwell- ing pays 9d. and the factory only.8d. In London and, perhaps, in all great urban centres the burden should be reversed; the rates should be charged on the work- man's dwelling two-thirds of its gross value, or even less, and on the factory three-quarters, or even more." There is an example in the footnote. " The incidence of rating on weekly holdings (in which the Act allows the rating authority power to deduct from the gross rating ' according to circumstances') is even more onerous1 by the rules lately adopted. For example, a tenement let at 8s. per week is assessed at £15 gross and £12 rateable value where the rates are from 4s. 6d. to 6s. 6d. in the £. In this case the workman's dwell- ing pays rates on four-fifths of the' gross value, while the factory escapes with two-thirds." 15799. Is that- assessment under the Small Tenements Act?—No; there has been an understanding between the various rating authorities which was established about two years ago*. I do not know under what Act- that was. 15800. (Mr. Vallance.) The valuation is under the Valuation (Metropolis) Act I—Yes, under the Act I have quoted. 15801. (Chairman.) In the Small Tenements Act, where the landlord compounds and pays the rates, they make very great -allowances ?—Yes, but that is another matter to which I shall presently refer. (Mr. Vallance.) That does not touch the, rateable value;.....it is. simply .a question of the payment of the rate upon that rateable value. 15802. {Chairman.) But they may make allowances cn the rate to be paid ?—Yes, yery large allowances. 15803. Then that does touch the question?—Yes. The fact is that is an allowance for empties, and also for the cost of collection. 15804. (Chairman.) It is a voluntary allowance ; they can allow something if they like?!—Yes, anything between 10 and 25 per cent, or nothing: " To resume, it might even be a wise measure to encourage the removal of a factory from London to the provinces by exempting the new'building from local rates*for # certain number of years. It is said that in Hungary this is the rule in the case of all new facto res."MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 551 15QQ5» Were, the new buildings in the provinces or where ?—In the provinces. * * * 158Q6. That .wQuld be rather hard on the other parish- ioners in the; provinces ijp,.-. because there is strong reasonjor exemption, as my next sentence shows : The new. fg^pr^i^ngs (new employment, and a population of wage-ea^ei-^ needing, little or np help from 15818. (Mr. Vallance.) Several streets running at right angles ?•—Yes, olose to Brady Street, and includ- ing part of Brady Street. To resume my paper: " lHvery encouragement should be given to the erection of dwellings for the working classes, especially in the direction already indicated — of rendering the incidence of their rating less onerous. A further boon might be conferred upon them by making the permissive law for compounding rates both compulsory and uniform. At present certain local authorities refuse composition altogether, while others allow deductions varying from 10 to 25 per cent. A uniform 20 per cent, would be reasonable, and would give a great impetus to the building of tenement houses and block dwellings, not only as affording a measure of relief, but as enabling builders to know beforehand with certainty their rating liabilities. Another point of uncertainty and hardship might with advantage be removed. Under the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1890, Section 26, tenements under an annual value of. £20 are exempted from inhabited house duty subject to a certificate from the medical officer of health of the district that there is a " due provision" of sanitarv arrangements. This certificate is in many cases refused by medical officers having personal fads on sani- tary subjects, though granted by others for buildings constructed on exactly the same lines. The usual certi- ficate of the local sanitary inspector (without which, no new house may be occupied) should suffice to*im title the tenement to the exemption from duty, without needing the arbitrary decision of a medical officer, from which there is no appeal. The removal of the present uncer- tainty would be a great boon to those who build for the working classes." I may say with reference to that paragraph that actually one of the largest blocks that, I built for the Guinness Trust in Hammersmith has been refused that certificate bv the local sanitary official, although those buildings are pronounced to be—perhaps I ought not to say so—quite a model of what dvreirm^ ought to be. " One of the great factors of the housing problem has hitherto been the difficulty and cost of transit to the suburbs. This difficulty is now, happily, disappearing, the extensions of tramway systems and tube railways contributing largely to its removal. Much remains to be done by tramways to open up new districts and act as feeders to the main trunk lines of suburban communication; but, to this end, the present law naeds amendment, so as to render impossible the vexatious opposition of small local Councils, any one of whom may wreck a scheme that deserves encouragement rather than opposition. Connected with the question of the workman's transit is a point, social and economic, which must not be ignored. This time, which may be roughly stated at one hour per day in excess of the time that would be occupied if the workman lived near his work, is so much abstracted from his leisure, and as it is not pleasantly occupied, it may be taken as part of his work- ing day. Considering the crowded condition and un- healthy atmosphere of most London workshops, and the fact that the London day worker seldom, if ever? puts forth his full energy, it would be desirable t© shorten the hours of work by one hour, except where thev have already been shortened. It cannot be denied that the old-established hours of work—8 a.m. to 8 p.m.—sur- viving in many trades are unduly long ■ but it must also . be admitted that, in the face of the competition of' foreign manufactures, no such concession could be ex- pected from employers unless the workers performed1 their part by increasing their output per hour, so as to> prevent eventual loss." 15819. (Chairman.) In what trades are the hours from 8 to 8 ?—In the cabinet-making trades especially. 15820. These are indoor trades. Does it apply to bricklayers ?—No ; the bricklayers have their powerful trades unions, and only work about 9i hours per day. To resume: "This has been accomplished elsel where with conspicuous success. The London County Council and the Borough Councils should receive from the Legislature every encouragement to prose- cute their housing schemes, and all the existing vexatious impediments should be withdrawn. The main condition imposed should be that they keep552 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. N. S. separate accounts of housing schemes, vouched by Joseph: an independent auditor, and that the rents be so M—* adjusted as honestly to involve no charge on the rates. ___ The machinery involved in a clearance and housing scheme under Part I. of the Housing of the Working Classies Act of 1891 is unnecessarily cumbersome and costly. Under Part III. it is easier, and the building plans do not need the approval of the Local Government Board, as required under Part I. The officials of the London County Council can surely be trusted to make their own plans, without having to submit them to the criticism and dictation of officials of the Local Govern- ment Board; and if they can be trusted—a.s they are— under Part III. of the Act, which is now so largely used, they can be equally trusted under Part I., which deals with the clearing and covering of sites, more especially as the Home Office exercises control over all clearance projects. The municipal bodies of London have to race a further difficulty in having to adjust their, rents in such a way as to show a recoupment of all outlay on land and buildings within 60 years. Considering that the land can never be the worse for use and wear after 60 years, and, judging from all past precedents, must in- crease in value, there seems small reason why the cost of the site, if acquired at market value only, should be included in the sinking fund scheme at all. The rule probably had its origin in the fact that in a clearance scheme much more than market value is paid for the land; but that fact has no existence in dealings under Part III. of the Act, which constitute the major part of the housing schemes now in progress. Moreover, the »6Q years' sinking fund for buildings that are so strongly , built that they will be still young after the lapse of a . century is wholly unreasonable. The dictum that each generation should discharge its own liabilities is doubt- — less a wise one where the liability is incurred for items that yield no income, or that exhaust themselves in one generation; but when the liability is incurred for build- ings like the working class dwellings of the London • County Council, that yield a safe and permanent income and that will last for more than three generations and then remain a valuable asset for many years more, a , 60 years' sinking fund appears an excess of caution. So far the London County Council and the Borough Councils have been unable to house the very poor, as the rents have had to be adjusted to meet the short period of uMortisation. If the sinking fund could exclude the fair market value of the cleared sites, and could be prolonged to 80 ^ears, their housing difficulties would be greatly . dinfiniihed, and they could produce tenements at rents that would enable a humbler class of tenant to be accommodated." There is a note here: " Since the •above was written Mr. Long has intimated the intention ^ of the Government to promote a measure for extending the period of the sinking fund." Then I continue : " The Councils should, further, have power to purchase mora land for their housing schemes than they intend to cover with dwellings. Anything approaching speculation on the part of a public body should, of course, be depre- cated, and, indeed, made impossible. But when a. council buys under Part III. of the Act, say, five acres of land in a suburb, and covers it with workmen's dwellings, the „ .operation so enhances the value of the neighbouring five acres that there should be power to simultaneously pur- . chase and hold the latter for letting or resale in the . open market at the enhanced value produced by the . building scheme." 15821. This is the Act of 1891?—Yes, Part III. Part III. has been extended by an Amendment Act to include land outside the County of London. "As things now are, the neighbouring owners take the unearned increment of value that is properly due to the Council. Such a purchase of additional land at the initial value would be no speculation, for there would be a certainty of profit. A large colony of dwellings must of necessity create a new centre of population, and must require shops, and shop sites always attract lessees or purchasers at high prices. If a council purchased additional land in such circum- stances, the law might compel it to realise within ten years, in the same way as a railway company is required to realise its surplus lands. The proceeds of the sale would be placed to the credit of the capital account of the housing scheme, and, if the powers here suggested were given to the Councils, the eventual profit on the surplus land would probably pay the whole cost of the site actually used for housing." 15822. Say what you will, this purchase of additional surplus land would be somewhat of a speculation. It is not like where you have the streets, and you can hav* these shops passing the road, but you would buy for the purpose of reselling, according to you —I do not think they have power now to build shops, in any case ; it is very sparingly used, if they have. I will give the Council this property, the vendor reserved to himself all the frontages, so that he kept the cream of the land for the purpose of letting for shops. 15824. Let us work out that concrete case. Take it the County Council buy land enough to build 1,000 dwellings. I follow all you say, that they would re- quire shops, and so forth. The Council say we want, having bought that, to buy 20 more acres. What are they to do with that. Are they to sell that ad hoc for the purpose of building shops, or may they sell it vo any purchaser?—They would sell it to any purchaser, but they would keep it until the buildings were ready for occupation. 15825. Which buildings ?—Their own buildings. The residents in those dwellings must have shops; whereat to do their shopping, and there will then be a host of specu- lative builders, who will be very glad indeed to take the adjoining land. 15826. Would you put the purchaser under covenant to build shops ?—Yes. 15827. According to the requirements ?—Yes. 15828. That would bring it very much in assimilation with the objects of the original purchase, because it would conduce to the benefit of those who occupy the tenements P—Yes. 15829. That is your view?—Yes. As matters now are the adjoining owners have the advantage of this un- earned increment, and I say the ratepayers should have that benefit. 15830. Say what you like, it is a little bit speculative? —As far as I see there is no speculation in it; there is a certainty of profit. 15831. I quite appreciate your point?—Of course, it must not be overdone. It must be a due proportion. 15832. It would depend very much on whether these were isolated buildings or whether they were near a town ?—In the case-1 speak of they were at some distance from any shops. I mentioned that the site was out in the fields.. 15833. (Sir Kenehn Digby.) Shops must grow up?— Yes. 15834. (Chairman.) That is an incident as compared with a building that is close to a populated district where there are shops? — Yes. To resume my paper: But supposing all the steps here sug- gested were adopted for the removal of obstacles besetting housing projects, many years would elapse before the supply of house accommodation could equal the demand, and the high rents of slum dwellings and their consequent overcrowding would yet continue. What measures, then, could in the meantime be adopted to mitigate those evils? It must be with reluctance admitted that the operation of the Housing Act of 1891 and the Acts which it superseded have done much to enhance the value of the slum dwelling by putting money into the pocket of the slum owner. Although the Act of 1891 abolished the extra 10 per cent, paid to an owner for compulsory sale of an insanitary dwelling, and directed the arbitrator or jury, in assessing values of properties taken under clearance schemes, to take into account adverse circumstances affecting those properties, including overcrowding and other illicit occupation, the fact remains that the slum owner has obtained for worn- out houses, little better than ruins, and only fit to be pulled down, prices far beyond their true value. This has occurred through no fault of the Council or their officials, whose zeal in the ratepayers' interest is beyond all praise. The wo^n-out houses are treated as' pro- perties when they should be considered only as ruinsMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 553 mercifully allowed by the magistrates to be kept stand- ing on sufferance, in view of the scarcity of dwelling space. When so treated as properties they are paid fort at so many years' purchase on the net rental, instead of the value of the naked, land plus the value of the old; material on that land. In fact, the slum owner, when bought out under a clearance and housing scheme, de- rives an abnormal profit from the reluctance of the magistrates to give closing orders that would reduce aj house value to a mere site value." 158155. Does that disinclination, of the magistrate pro- ceed from regard to the interests of the owner, or from his desire not to turn people out without a place to go to?—That is very difficult to say. You heard the week before last the evidence of the magistrate of the Thames Police Court, in which he gave you the whole figures, which I thought were rather startling. In six years in his large district there were only about 16 cases of over- crowding per annum which were brought to a conviction. In the Thames Police Court there were in the six years in all 96 orders made, 21 were withdrawn, and seven refused. 15836. That has nothing to do with the clearance scheme ?—To some extent, because the house is ordered to be closed after three convictions. The consequence is that the worse a slum area, the more ruinous its houses, and the greater the chance of its being included in some improve- ment or clearance scheme, the higher the prices paid by the slum-jobber for houses in that area. . When a new purchaser buys he increases his rents, the tenant paying the increased demand because he cannot find another home. The purchaser then raises money by mortgage through some low class surveyor or solicitor, who justifies an advance based on the augmented rent. The rents being more than the tenant can afford, the tenant takes in nnder-tenants, and overcrowding ensues. The owiuer finds that his tenant makes a profit by underletting, .and' again raises the rent so as to share in that profit. In this way the high renting creates overcrowding, and the overcrowding creates the high renting. Both are cause and effect. What steps can be taken to mitigate these evils ? The answer is, that slum-owning and slum-jobbing must be made, by the action of the law, a less profitable and a. more pre- carious pursuit. The slum tenements must cease to be regarded as a property or a security. More houses must be ordered to be closed as unfit for human habita- tion. There are thousands of such which, if viewed by any magistrate, however merciful, would not escape his condemnation. 'There is no reason why the magis- trate who prevents poisonous meat from being sold should not prevent poisonous houses from being in- habited. The law gives him full powers, and if these were more frequently exercised the slum-jobber would feel less secure, and slum property would find fewer purchasers. No one would lend money upon. it. Prices would then fall, and rents would fall with them, and with falling rents overcrowding would diminish." 15837. What order would you make? Would the magistrates have power to close, and then stop? Would you carry on your view, and give a power either to the magistrate or 'someone to direct that the house should be pulled down and the site cleared ?—As a matter of fact, when a housie is closed it gets pulled down. I can give a concrete example. There was a very large area of over an acre of ground in Bermondsey, where, after an infinite amount of trouble, the magistrate gave closing orders. The land thus, became unproductive, and the landlord became tired of having an unproduc- tive property, so he sold the site to the Guinness Trust, and it is now covered by about 400 dwellings. The effect is automatic; when a house is closed it. gets pulled down. 15838. That is not the operation of law?—No. 15839. You would leave it to the public naturally, the action of the individual ?—Yes, the natural interest of the owner to get an income. 15840. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The closing order closes it, and it is closed unless put in a fit state ?—Yes. 15841. (Chairman.) I want to know whether you would go further, and pull down?—I would give that power, but it would probably come automatically, be- cause the owner1 wants to get an income out of his land, and he either sells it or lets it on a building lease. 15842. That is your experience?—Yes, that is so. " The Public Health (London) Act and the Bye-laws 614 sanctioned by the Local Government Board, appear to jy. S. be sufficiently strong to prevent overcrowding, but the Joseph. law needs amendment in certain small,, details. Its —— weakness appears to be in procedure. After the lapse 16 ^ar. M08w*. of six weeks from the date of an act of overcrowding, and endless trouble taken by a zealous sanitary inspector, a conviction may possibly be obtained, and a fine as low as Is. may be inflicted, and, perhaps, it is inflicted on the wrong man—the hapless lodger." 15843. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is a little modified by Mr. Dickinson's evidence ?—I only read Mr. Dickin- son's evidence in the papers. 15844. He explains "what the meaning of the one shil- ling fine is. It is not really a penalty measured by the offence, but it is in order to give jurisdiction to close finally?—Yes. But, of course, the result does not satisfy the sanitary inspector, who has taken a great deal of trouble over that prosecution. 15845. I know there was a good deal said about that, but that is very considerably modified when you see the evidence of the magistrates on the subject?—I say here: " No wonder if the zealous inspector grows slack when he sees the result of his zeal. There seems to be no reason why there shoulcL be the several delays before summons for overcrowding or for sanitary defects, which now militate against conviction, and there appears no ground for not including in the summons every person implicated (directly or indirectly) in the offence, so- that all may share in the infliction of an adequate fine in due proportion. According to present rules, in any case of overcrowding or other sanitary delinquency, an intimation notice is served. A week must then elapse. Then two successive meetings of a sanitary committee must take place, usually at fourteen days' intervals, before a summons can be ordered." It takes six weeks now. "Justice, to be effectual, must be prompt." 15846. {Chairman.) When you say two successive meetings of the Sanitary Committee must take place, is that under the statute ?—Yes, I have the statute here.. I ought to say it is not obvious, if you look at the clause,, that it is requisite. As a matter of fact, that is so, and all the authorities read it in that way. " Justice, to be effectual, must be prompt. It should need no more than the sworn information of the sanitary inspector, perhaps, countersigned by the town clerk of the borough, to justify the magistrate in the immediate issue of the summons, which ishould be both under the Public Health Act and the bye-laws, and could thus be made to include not only the ' keepers' of the house or tene- ment, but the ' owners' and occupiers ; and the Act should be amended so as to include all or any lease- holders in receipt of the rents and profits., or any part thereof. There is a precedent for this in the case of prosecutions for keeping disorderly housies, all owners legally interested in the house being included in the indictment. In cases of overcrowding, the magistrate would then fine not only the actual lodger or under- lodgar who overcrowds, and who is probably the least blameworthy, but each and all of the several lessees and under-lessees in due proportion to their interests in the high rent that is in most cases of overcrowding the true causa causans of the offence. If any alteration of the law .were needed to effect the above results, there might be an enactment enforcing imprisonment without option of fine after three convictions under the Public Health Act. Such a case as that of Booth Street Buildings), where the owner had been fined more than twenty times for the same offence should be made im- possible." 15847. Had the houses been closed there ?—No, never. I wish they had. 15848. Would not that be a better remedy than by imprisonment?—-It is very difficult to get a closing order. " The Home Secretary might consider the ex- pediency of appointing a special stipendiary magistrate to sit in various overcrowded boroughs of the metropolis for dealing with cases under the Public Health Act. The police magistrates are so overworked, especially in the poorer dstricts of London, that they cannot possibly give adequate time to such cases, which always need prolonged inquiry, and, frequently, personal inspection of the premises affected." I believe that is the bottom of the mischief that the magistrates are too hardly worked. " Much may be expected from the registration of lodging-houses, if the bye-laws for the prevention of overcrowding be duly enforced. In many metro- politan boroughs, however, the new councillors are for 4 A554 ROYAL COMMISSION ON- A£l$NT -IMMIGRATION : the most; part the old Vestrymen, aiid tlie bid traditions: Msqpk. of the departed vestries fltiay possibly still survive. It .. ^ 1Qnq would a wise measure for the Local Government flflar. 1003. Board to promote, and even compel, uniformity of pro- cedure in all the boroughs with reference to registra- tion of houses and tfeneiirents let in lodgings.1: Licences should in all cases of registration be granted^ setting forth the number of adult persons who may be housed in each tenement and each room. Every conviction for insanitary conditions or for overcrowding should be en- dorsed on the licence, and, after three such endorse- ments, the licence should be revoked and impounded, the house permanently closed, and the site cleared and re- stored to the freeholder with all leasehold rights ex- tinguished , but with the liability that he erect on the «ite within a year a., riew and healthy house. By such process many unhealthy and overcrowded areas would be cleared, and the isites covered with improved dwell- ings, without injustice to anyone, and without the costly procedure of a clearance scheme under the Housing Act." I must apologise for being so lengthy. 15849. (Chairman.) You need not apologise," I assure you. Is there anything you would like to add to this very valuable paper ?—I think not, my Lord,; but I should be very glad to knswer any questions. 15850. (Major IVvans-Gordon.) Before we go-into the general question dealt with in your paper on alien immi- gration I should like to asik you are you in agreement with what Mr. Leonard Cohen has told us-—that he would not object to restrictive measures against unde- sirables ?—'I do not quite agree. I should like first to have a definition of undesirables. I do not think that point wa>s made quite clear. 15851. Broadly ^peakiing, those whom the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewish Committee repatriate and send away, that class of undesirablets, would you object to restrictive measures against them,?—— _ 1 15852; (Chairman-) Would you have any objection, to preventing the immigration of some undesirables^ or .are you opposed to the principle that all immigrants should be regulated?—I should say, in the first place, ■that I am against the restriction of admission. 15853. .Any restriction?—Yes ; my reason being that I do not believe that any process of investigation that you may hare upon arrival would be effectual, or that you would be able to distinguish then and there, at the point of disembarkation, what is a desirable case or what is an undesirable case- 15854. Hypothetically, if you could so discriminate, would you then object to imposing regulations upon their coming in?—I do not think I should like it for many reasons. In the first place I doubt very much whether public sentiment would not be very much against reversing all the ancient traditions of England whereby there is free admission for all oppressed people; and there is no doubt a great number of these, even amongst the undesirables, are oppressed people, and have become undesirable by reason of their oppres- sion. I do not think you will get rid of the humani- tarian view in such a way that restriction would be countenanced by public opinion. (Chairman.) The traditions of England, of which you isrpeak, were formed at a time when the evils we are now dealing with did not exist. 15855. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to these people that you say are oppressed even though un- desirable, under the circumstances! why are so many .sent back ?—We send them back for their own sakes, and for our sakes. For the credit of our community we do not want to (have a number of these undesirables permanently here. 15856. Then you would object to the State doing what you do yourself?—No, I do not ©ay that, but so long ..as we do do it, and do it effectually, there is no need for the 8tate to interfere. ' 15857. (Chairman.) You -substitute yourselves for the "State, arid! if you fail you say the State ought not to do it?—-No ; I say if we do fail, I thinik the State has a right to do it in the interest of the State. 15858. Then someone has to do it?1—Someone has to do it. . 15859. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You send them back to oppression for the credit of the community ?—That is hardly the right way to put it. We send them back for their own sakes/ They can d!o no good for them- sllve^ here. " We always consider the individual firsts They can do no good for themselves:, and,, therefore,, they are better off in their own country than they are over ihere, in spite of oppression. 15860. With regard to the deterrent effect of any Restrictive legislation, if there is a standard set up in a country, do not you think it has an influence on the people before starting ?—I think the fact that we have Sent back so many of the undesirable class, when they go back they'tell the lesson to their neighbours, and tell them very likely (people of their own class), "It is of no use your going, you will only be, sent back." r 15861. Do the people arriving show any signs of diminution ?—'Very great sign® of diminution* " 15862. The number arriving in England ?—I will give you the actual figures. _ 15863. What about the figures we had read out to us this morning by the Chairman ?—These figures are taken from the Board of Trade returns, and they are absolutely delusive. You would1 imagine from the way in which it is stated that all these people coming remain here. (Chairman.) No ; it says, " Other than en route." 15864. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They arrived iu London ?—But they were merely birds of passage. 15865. I infer from that that the greater bulk ©f people who are arriving, whether birds of passage or not the greater is the remainder staying in this country likely to be ?^-aBut it really is not so, as a matter of fact. 15866. What figures have you to prove that ?—I thinli you had better ask Mr. Landau that question. He can tell you some remarkable facts as to the people who arrived last autumn, all of whom were birds of passage. ... 15867. (Chairman.) Is it your view that a considerable proportion of those were going en route to America or elsewhere ?7T^I have no doubt about it. 15868. I suppose some do come to pay visits and go back ?—-I should think very few. But to show you now delusive these Board of Trade figures are, I quoted Mr. Ridley's statement that 71,000 arrived in one year " ad- mittedly to reside here." Those-were his words. Now, if that fact were anything like true, that would mean that in ten years you would have something: like 1,000,000 aliens, with the increase of births over deaths, or without taking that into account, you would have 710,000 aliens, as the result of that incursion. I need "hardly say this would be an impossible figure, because the total number of aliens existing in London in 1901 was only 135,000. 15869. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Going back for one moment to the deterrent effect of legislation, do you not attach importance to that?—From the American experi- ence, I sihould say it would not have any deterrent effect. 15870. You do not think the American law has deterred people from starting for America ?—I should think not. 15871. In fact, all the restrictions that have been im- posed have kept out very few people ?—I will not say that. For example, it would deter an idiot from going if he had sufficient mental power to understand it; and there are other persons suffering from loathsome diseases who are not allowed to enter. It would deter persons of that description. 15872. Would you admit diseased people here?—I cer- tainly would not. When I say I would not admit them, I should add in general terms that I have a scheme to take the place of your scheme, and it is a scheme of ex- pulsion. 15873. What is my scheme ?—Your scheme is one of restriction, and mine is not. My scheme is one- for ex- pulsion. 15874. Sending away after arrival?—Sending away, after an immigrant is1 shown to be not fit to become a British citizen, then I should expel him. I will put it before you presently, if you wish. 15875. (Chairman.) Would you explain this a little more ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is the crux of the whole thing. 15876. (Chairman.) Would you register on arrival, or what course would you take ?—I think it is. desirable to have registration on arrival for the sake of giving you powers over the shipping companies. This is my humble suggestion for an Alien Expulsion Act: " Power to be given to the Home Secretary to expel by order aliens be- longing to either of the following categories : (I1) AliensMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 555 who are notorious anarchists, known to be or to have been actively engaged in plotting deeds of violence. (2) Aliens who are notorious thieves, forgers, or habitual criminals, known to hav,e been convicted in their own country or elsewhere. (3) Aliens being either idiot or insane, or suffering from contagious, infectious, or loath- some disease. (4) Aliens known to be prostitutes, or engaged inprocuringor living on the earnings o$f pros- titutes, or in keeping hopises of ill-fame. (5) Aliens Resi- dent here less than three years who have actually become and remained for three months a public charge other than as recipients of outdoor medical relief. (6) Aliens however long resident in this country who have more than once> been .fined or imprisoned here, or more than once been adjudicated a bankrupt here. (7) If the alien evade personal service of the order, publication of the order in the London Gazette to suffice. (8) Disobedience of the order to be a misdemeanour punishable by one month's imprisonment, followed by forcible expulsion. (9) Expense of returning the alien to his place of domicile to be recoverable from the shipping company which landed him, but the company's liability to be limited to one year from date of landing. (10) Alien to have right of appeal to a. magistrate. If magistrate report to the Home Secretary in alien's favour the expulsion order to be revoked. (11) An order on an alien to include also his wife and family, but power to be reserved to the Home Secretary to make exceptions in favour of individual members of the family. (12) A list of all expulsion orders and revocations to be presented annually to Parliament. (13) Home 3ecretary to have power to make regulations I, should say that I make this, suggestion with all humility. I know that it is full of difficulty; but still it seems to me a far better arrangement than that of re- striction upon landing, for the reason that in any machinery restriction at the port of disembarkation it would be impossible to say to what class the immigrant belongs ; while according to my scheme he would be allowed to come in, and remain upon probation; that is, he would be allowed to ;rei^aii]Chere subject to good conduct, and subject to showing his fitness to become a useful British citizen. 15877. May I point out the immense difference? When he comes here we have an absolute right to refuse to let him in, but after he has been here your remedy is by forcible expulsion, and then we have to obtain the per- mission of the foreign country to take him back ?—. But is that so, my Lord ? 15878. Yes?—I rather venture to differ upon this point, because we have never had any difficulty with Russia. We have never had a case of an undesirable: wliom we have repatriated who has been sent back from the Russian frontier. 15879. This is a new system, and there has been no systematic sending back of persons to foreign nations yet?—I think so ; take Russia. Russia gets rid of all of. its Jewish Turkish subjects and sends them back to Turkey, and Turkey accepts them. 15880. If we have to send to France, Germany, and so forth every undesirable person, criminal, leper, or any- thing else, what example have we for their receiving those persons yet?—Supposing,they were,to refuse, then there would have to be reprisals. ' ' 15881. We have to send; these people'back unwillingly, and they have to go in charge of a policeman, and when we want to land them, the man says, "I will not land " ; do you mean to say the foreign State will say, " You shall" ?—I suppose they would have to be forcibly turned off the ship on to the foreign shore. 15882. Have we ever tried that system yet? You re- ferred to an example, tat we have never done such a thing as that. (Major Evans-Gordon.) We are doing it in large num- bers in Hamburg every day, and these people go. wil- lingly. (Chairman.) If they go willingly, they go willingly; but that is not the evil we have to deal with. {Major Evans-Gordon.) If you put them on board the ship, will not they have to go ? They cannot stop on the ship. 15883. (Chairman.) They would very likely be arrested for SQme crime that they have committed if they went back, and they may say, "We will not land." Of course, you can do it 'by treaty P—But is it not almost an obvious thing that one nation has no right to get rid of its malefactors oil to another nation? 15884. I perfectly agree, and therefore you could re- fuse them coming in ; but you are throwing the burden 6144. on us when you repatriate. If you stop them coming jy/Xt in, then what you say is correct ?—But you do not know Joseph,. what they are when they come i©. , I will take a con- -*—• , crete example. How do you know a man is a forger 16 Mar. 19Q& when he arrives ? 'l1" '":J JL 15885. I am not expressing any opinion as to the diffi- culty of it, but if you say a man shall receive a certifi- cate of character before he comes in, you could discover him, because if he was a forger he would not get. that certificate?—They cannot get reliable certificates, 15886. But that is the wiay that those who- wish to see this System carried out suggest it should be done ?—The best example is the evidence that Major Evans-Gordon has given you, where a Consul at Libau issued a false certificate, and the certificate enabled, I think, 30 per- sons to land at Cape Town who ought not to have, been permitted to land. 15887. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He dealt with150, but 30 of them were cases in which he should not have dealt with thejn with, regard to their means ?—He gave a cer- tificate that they had adequate means, and; when tjiey arrived it turned out they h^d none, so that the consular certificate Was valueless. " {Major Ev^ans-Gordon.) .That was very quickly put so that it made them most extremely careful with regard to the people they sent on after- wards. 15888. (Chairman.) That rather supports your view) —My view is that the Consul is not an infallible person just because he is an official. 15889. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He is not infallible by any means, but it amounts to a check, and what. I submit to you is, is it not a fact that any standard you set up in a country, like the standard that has been set up in America, immediately puts in motion the filtra- tion and examination of people who propose to come to this country?—I would put to you a concrete example. Supposing you had at your 30 ports, a Court of Inquiry,, the same as they have at Castle Garden, New York. You would have the examination there. How would you be able to say this man who arrives is an Anarchist, or this woman is a prostitute! You cannot tell by appearances what they are. 15890. That is not quite the point at the moment. I am discussing the question of the existence of a stan- dard in this country. Is it not the fact that great care is taken in the countries where these people come from not to send people who do not come up to that standard ? —I do not think it is so. If you ask any person who has -been among the slums of New York, you will find that they suffer there from a congestion far in excess of our worst congestion. . , 15891. All the more need for care?—I mean to say it has been a failure there. AH the measures there have* been failures. 15892. It does not in- the least follow, and I have evidence to show that had the American law not existed, the condition of New York would have been immeasur- ably worse than it even is at the present moment?—Is not that hypothetical ? 15893. No, I do not think so at all. I have sat on the committees1—principally Jewish committees—"Who, have been concerned in the sending out of thetse people from Roumania. I sat on the committee at Bucharest, and I saw the process to wluich the immigrants were sub- jected, and the fact of the existence of the American standard made those people most careful in choosing the people that they would send. They certainly chose the best, and rejected ruthlessly those who did not come up to the American standard. I submit that the existence of the standard has a beneficial effect in that way ?—• Will you allow me to say that the fear of rejection would not weigh with these committees so much as the fear of wasting their money. Before they would spend, say, £30 a head upon a case, they would say, " Now, here we have a monetary stake; we do not want to send a use- less person at a cost of £30 a head, and we will only choose the best men." 15894. (Chairman.) That is what Major Gordon says --it prevents them starting ?—My view is that the fear of being rejected would not weigh, but the fear of the money being wasted would weigh. 15895. By being rejected ?—No. A 2556 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : air, M 16 Mar. 1993. 15896. It is not wasted if they are not -rejected ?—It would be wasted if they were people who were not likely to succeed in the country where they are sent. That goes a longer way than the chance of rejectionj and that has always weighed with us, when we are considering cases at the, Jewish Board of Guardians. When it is a matter of spending £30 or £40 oni a case of emigration, we always ask ourselves, " Is this a good investment The other question does not enter into our minds. X5897. But if rejection is in front of you, it is a more direct proof to you that the expenditure would be use- less I do not think it has ever been present to our minds at all. 15898. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But abroad they say the individual emigrant must possess a considerable jsum of money before they will go into his case at all. They make him financially responsible. Do you know what is done with reference to the Jewish colonies in the Argentine ?—I have heard all about it. 15899. (Chairman.) Are these the Hirsch colonies?— Yes, my Lord. 15900. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The very closest scrutiny is made into the moral character and stability in every sense of the word, financial and so on, .and his health and, particularly his moral character is examined into dn the closest way, and that they do without any restriction for their own benefit, so that they may only send people who are likely to be good citizens ?—-In other words, .they .'ask themselves the question: " Is this man likely to prove a good investment for our money V' That is the test with all of us. 15901. What I want to put to you is, why should this •country be the only country which has not the benefit of that machinery and that care?—In Argentina they have not it; in Argentina they are perfectly satisfied with the good judgment of the selectors. 15902. They 1 have not them corrected, but I have the elements of them. If you want them particularly I can get them for you. 15955. Can you give me the burial statistics for 1902, and from that I want to get what the increase would be up to 1902. You say up to 1900 it was about 98,000 ?—~ That is only an estimate. There is no absolute accuracy, and I may say there are people who differ from me upon my figures, as they put a larger death-rate, which means a smaller number of individuals. The numbers are not materially increased. There is a difference of 41 only—• 1,880 against 1,839 in the burials of the United Syna- gogue. There is no material increase. 15956. Do you deduce from that that the population has not increased in two years at all ?—No, I do not, but to make an accurate estimate of the population from the mortality rate is somewhat delusive. It can only be approximate. 15957. Then you do not attach any conclusive im- portance to these figures that you give %—Yes, I do. I think, although approximate they are on the safe side, . from your point of view. 15958. It is a remarkable fact, between 1900 and 1902, it would show that the population, according to. that system of arriving at the totals, is practically stationary?—I will not say that, beciause there is an increase. I must also add approximately to the num- ber I have just given you of 1902, one-sixth for deaths outside the United Synagogue figures, and that would make 2,193. That figure which I have given here in that footnote, 1880 burials, ought thus to be, for 1892, corrected to about 2,193. It is approximate. 15959. (Lord Rothschilcl/.) What population would the 2,193 represent ?—I have taken it at 19*1 per thousand. 15960. (Major Evans-Goraon.) Instead of 1,880, yotL^ put it at 2,193 ?—Yes. 15961. (Chairman.) This is Jewish, native and foreign?—Yes. 15962. (Major Evams-Gordon}.) You cannot distin- guish ?—No. That would make the number about one-sixth more. It would be about 3,300 more. 15963. In the two years ?—Roughly speaking, yes. 15964. That would be. about the natural increase?—■ No, I think riot. The increase is only 1*5 per cent, per' annum—the natural increase. 15965. (Lord Rothschild.) Of foreigners in England? ---No, Jews in Stepney. The increase per cent, by the • excess of • births over deaths is 1*5 in Stepney. : 15966. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are taking it for the whole country, and not for Stepney only?—We are talking about London, and as the majority of the Jewa . live in Stepney, I take 1/5 as the natural increase of population.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 559 15967/ But the area now is very much wider; there is . Bethnal Green, Hackney;, and all these places. Stepney very delusive P—*No. The Borough of Stepney would : include, I should say, nineteen-twentieths of the Jevar in the East End. ; 15968* As much as riineteen-twentieths ?—I think a pauper class. They are people who are very help- fuL ' 16004. Where have they been acquiring this trade if they have been driven out of Bessarabia and Salonica ? —'Bessarabia is one of the most prosperous parts of Russia. 16005. These were only those who did not declare to be Russian subjects ?—Yes. 16006. Otherwise the Bessarabian Jew is compari- tively well off ?—Yes, the Bessarabian Jew is, generally speaking, a very superior case. They always turn out well. 16007. (Lord Bothschild.) Are not Roumanians Bess- arabians ?—No. {Major Evans-Gordon.) They were, , because Rou- anania wanted Bessarabia at the time of the Berlin Treaty, but they did not get it. 16008. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you any figures at all to show the proportion of oases of this kind there are ?—That is very difficult to say. I do not think we have any figures. With a great deal of trouble I could find you the exact numbers from our case papers. I am (looking now to give you an example of what we have to deal with in these Salonica cases. This extract from the report of the Russo-Jewish Committee refers to some Salonica cases, and it perhaps would be of interest to you to see what we have to contend with. This was in the year 1895 : " Early in March a freight steamer, the "Palatine/' from Alexandriai, landed 38 Russian emi- grants, 12 men, 8 women, and 18 children, in Boston, Lincolnshire, a town in which there were but three or four JeWs. The poor refugees had passed through a terrible experience. Their only place of rest during the voyage had been] the coal bunkers—for there were no cabins— >and they were herded together regardless of sex, without light, warmth, or sufficient food." 16009. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Were those from Odessa 1-—They were originally from Bessarabia, shipped from Odessa. They were Salonica cases: " The poor creatures, who were absolutely desti- tute, had made the passage in the depth of winter, and it is not, therefore, to be wondered at that on landing they were famished, and in such a pitiable condition, that several of them were unable to stand, and the life of one of them was for some time in con- siderable danger. The inhabitants of Boston, Jewish and Christian, vied with each other in their efforts to succour the new arrivals, who were promptly clothed and fed, the sick being carefully tended till their re- covery. The Bureau officer promptly .proceeded to Boston^ received the statements of the refugees, and made temporary arrangements locally for their comfort. His report dealing with each case individually was considered at a .special meeting of the Russo-Jewish Committee, and the recommendations therein contained were unanimously adopted. Of the 38 persons six only now remain in this country, three only being in London. This was not the first occasion when Russian refugees had been forwarded to this country under such conditions, and the committee cannot but regard with astonishment and repugnance the inhumanity and want of consideration displayed by those responsible in Alexandria, who rid themselves of these poor creatures by such questionable means." They had been sent from Stamboul to'Salonica, and from Salonica to Alexandria, and then sent over here. " The repetition of such treatment could ndfc be tolerated ; and representations were, under the direction, of the Committee, made to the Board of Trade. The matter was promptly taken up by the Marine Department, with the result that on Tuesday, the 19th March, the captain of the " Palatine " was prosecuted by the Board of Trade, and was fined a sum amounting with costs to £82. The magistrate, in delivering judg- ment, referred in strong terms to the inhumanity which permitted passengers to be ' treated like cattle/express- ing the hope that adequate measures would be adopted, by the British Consul at Alexandria to prevent the- wholesale smuggling on board of people after the ship- had been cleared, and the herding of them together, which recalled fthe worst days of the nefarious slave- trade." These are the remarks of the magistrate. I need not tell you people arriving in that condition had to b© nursed back to a state of health, and they are all. doing well. 16010. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) These sort of people come • to ports other than London?—These came to Boston. Then there is another case, referred to in a footnote to > this report: " On March 25th, 1894, 26 souls were- landed at Hull, after being conveyed from Alexandria - in an open sailing vessel, without cabin accommodation, and exposed to all the rigours of the inclement weather. 16011. {Major Evans-Gordon.) How long ago is this f —1894 : " During the voyage one of the passengers gave birth to a child, and the captain humanely turned out of his cabin—the only one on board—to make room for - the suffering mother." When people like this arrive they have to be nursed back to health. 16012. Is that sort of thing going on much now?—No,- that has been stopped ; but if you had your organisa- - tion at the port you could not send such people back. You would have to treat them as we did. I assume that everybody would have humanity enough to deal with .. them humanely; and you would have to do just the- same as we have done—nurse them back into health. 16013. With regard to the Census Returns generally, and with regard to these numbers that you quote, there • is a passage in this book, " The Jew in London," Appen- dix A, which says : " The Census Returns are almost use- less, as they do not take account of religious distinc- tions, and any calculation based on the official records- of deaths and marriages is made uncertain by the pre- sence and constant influx of a large immigrant element, which throws out the ordinary proportions between old and young." Do you agree that the movement of " population vitiates the statistics?—No, I do not. I am not at all responsible for " The Jew in London." 16014. You do not agree with that?—Not at all. I think we have approximately accurate statistics. 16015. You do not agree that the influx of adults . probably has the effect of depressing both the marriage and death rate ?—No, I believe it increases the marriage • rate. 16016. The influx of adults does?—The influx of young adults certainly without a question. Indeed, we ■ consider our marriagerate is 9 instead of 7 per 1,000. 16017. You do not agree with that statement at all? ' —I do not agree with it at all. It is quite wrong. 16018. Then in the third paragraph of your statement . you say: " On the whole, it may be fairly 'estimated that the average increase of the Jewish population in London due to alien immigration, and to births conse- quent thereon does not exceed 2,000 per annum." How many of that net increase of 2,000 per annum would you_. say were births ?—'You mean the excess of births over - deaths ? 16Q19. You say the net increase is 2,000—part is due ■ to immigration and part is due to> births after their • arrival in this country. How many would you put down to births ?—I cannot say. We have no means of knowing that. 16020. But some of them would be births?:—Natur- ally some would be births.. 16021. How many—-what sort of a figure ?—We have no idea at all; but we have to take into account the * very large infantile mortality. I do not think it would be any very large increase. 16022. Then that 2,000 would be mostly immigrants , irrespective of children born in the country?—There would be, of course, an increase, but I cannot tell you... how much. 16023. But the bulk of this 2,000 would be immi- grants ?—Oh, yes, I think so. You may assume that. 16024. With regard to that increase, have you the • Census figures for 1881 ?—I have the Census book. 16025. You have quoted them, have you not?—I think : I have in one or two places. What is the particular figure you want ? 16026. You say that the increase1 from 1880 to 1900 *MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 561 was 37,500 of the whole Jewish population in London? —Yes. Approximately. 16027. " Due to the influx of aliens would thus not exceed' 37,500, and this would also include the British born progeny of the aliens arriving in those two de- cades" 1—Yes. 16028. So that, from all sources, you say in 20 years, it increased by 37,500 ?—'That is so. 16029. There were approximately no Russian Jews in England in 1881 ?—Oh, yes, there were a great number. 16030. The great influx began in 1882 ?—Yes, in 1882. 16031. There are now over 38,000 Russian Jews nooording to the Census ?—Is that the Census figure ? 16032. Yes ?—Yes. 16033. Not including children born here to them?— Yes. 16034. Then to this you must add the Poles and' Roumanians. The Russians' in the County of London, in 18811 get from the Census were returned at 1,778 ?— There were Poles and Roumanians. 16035. And it is admitted that the influx did not begin till 1882 ?—The large influx. 16036. They -are now returned at 38,117, so that makes an increase, without allowing for children born here, of 36,339 in 20 years for Russians alone?—Yes. 16037. I compare that with your figure of 37,500 for the whole Jewish population, including the children?— Yes. 16038. But I do not see how your figure can possibly be right ?- (Lord Rothschild.) No doubt the burials give you the right figures. 16039s (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then the Census figure is -admittedly wrong ?—^Supposing there is .no large in* crease due to excess of birfchs over deaths, then it would just check my figure. It would be just right. 16040. These are only Russians I am' dealing with, and you are dealing with the whole Jewishi community? —I can account for that. There is, no doubt, a very >large number of Germans and Poles who do come over. The Board of Guardians Report shows that. But per contra there is a very large emigration to the Colonies which would probably quite balance the other. 16041. Let us take the Census figures as. they were given in 1900, of actual people present then in London. I have got 38,117. We must either take the Census ? figure or leave it ?—But the Census does not give you ■ any account of those people to whom Lord Rothschild refers—the people who are voluntarily emigrants from here, who go to Australia and the Cape and other places. 16042. The Census figure does not deal with emigra- tion?—No.; but you asked, me how I -account for the number; I show that the increase is almost identical >with the number which the Census return shows as due to Russians alone. 16043. Exclusive of children ?—Yes. My answer to you is this: that as regards the Germans and Poles they are balanced by the English Jews who go to Aus- tralia and other Colonies, because they do that with their own resources, and there would be no record of that. 16044. Let me run through the figures. I have got for 1901 Russians, by the Census, 38,117, exclusive of children born to them here. I have got Poles in the County of London returned in 1881 at 6,931, and they are now 15,420, showing an increase, without allowing for children born here, of 8,489 in 20 years. Then the Roumanians in 1881 were 36, and they are now about 2,000, showing an increase, without -allowing for children born here, of 1,900 in 20 years. The increase of Russians, Poles, and Roumanians who are for the most part Jews, during the 20 years, was thus 25,000, without allowing for children born here in this country. You say in the second paragraph of your statement that the total increase of the Jewish population of London, including the influx of -aliens and children born to them here, wa-s 37,500. I work it out at 45,500?--- (Chairman.) For Russians and Poles ? 16045. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And Roumanians; the elass we are specially dealing with ?—My reply is that those Poles and Roumanians, and so on, would be 6144. balanced by the Jewish population who emigrate Mr. N. S. voluntarily by their own means. Joseph. 16046. (Chairman-) But here, in the Census returns, jg Mar. 1908. they are found in this country on a particular night —— sleeping. There is nothing to be deducted from them because there they are ?—There is the native Jewish population who have emigrated. 16047. I do not understand you. Your figures are less than Major Evans-Gordon, he giving only Russians, Poles, and' Roumanians, arid they were found sleeping in this country on a certain night?—Yes. 16048. Why is it that your figures, which represent the whole, are less than his?—We are talking now about the increase, and not the number—the increase during those 10 years. 16049. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The increase due to the influx ?—The increase due to the influx. 16050. (Chairman.) And births?—Yes. I say on the other side of the account you have to take the Jews who emigrated from here. 16051. Persons found on certain premises in 1881 and persons found on certain premises in 1901. There is that actual increase that has sprung up to 45,000 of Russians, Poles, and Roumanians ?- (Major Evans-Gordon.) Exclusive of children. 16052. (Chairman.) I do not see how you can deduct from that increase. Iiow ca,n you ?—I do not quite see the drift of it, because, if I take into account all that are here, I must also take into account all wh-o have left during 10 years. 16053. It is not a deduction from the 45,000, because they are here. There has been that increase in these three nationalities during that time ?■—What is the total increase in the three nationalities ? 16054. (Major Evans - Gordon.) 45,000 ?—I make 53,500. 16055. (Chairman.) That is not the figure that Major Evans-Gordon gave ?—Yes. If you look, at my foot-note, I make more than Major Evans-Gordon does in that way. 16056. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But that includes the native children ?—It includes the children born here. 16057. I do not include'the children born here ?—But that makes the difference. I am rather inclined to think your figures agree with mine if you take into account the children. I think our figures coincide re- markably. 16058. I do not agree with that, because these are children of the native Jews who must be deducted. They do not come into my figures at all ?—:Then your figures -are lower than mine if they do not come in. 16059. I do not understand how you arrive at it ?__ 16060. (Lord Rothschild.) Not all the Russian Poles who come here are Jews?—No ; but I should think a very large proportion are. I should think nearly all. 16061. (Chairman.) A few -are Roman Catholics, but they are nearly all Jews?—'Yes, nearly all of them. 16062. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I must hold to that point. You make your ne-t increase 37,500?—What do you make yours ? 16063. I make my net increase, exclusive of children, 45,000 ?-—Now you have to add children. 16064. But you add the children in your figure. You say distinctly your 37,500 includes the British-born progeny ?—Our figures coincide. 16065. (Lord Rothschild.) What do you take your funerals at?—1,880 for the year 1900. 16066. What are your funerals to the population if There is no test like that ?—If we take it at the ordinary 4 rate of mortality, 19*3, that would show 98,500. 16067. And if you take it at .a lower mortality?—It will not be lower. I believe I have taken too low a mortality, and it ought to be a higher death rate, which would give a smaller population. But really my figures agree with Major Gordon's, and I do not know what he is contending for. 16068. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, I cannot agree with them. You say in your footnote you deduct the natural increase of the native population, and having done that, you -arrive at a net increase of Jews of 37,500 I say that -the net increase by the Census of Russians, Poles, and Roumnians, is 45,000, without children?— And with children how much? 4 B562 JJOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGKATION ; ■'Mr.' N. Jostph. ItfMar. 1903. 16069. With children I cannot tell?—It would be more certainly. 16070. Certainly, considerably more. The Census office? said 50 per cent, more?—Oh, no. 16071. He said so?—That is contrary to all experi- ence. 16072. He said, taking one district, he made the dif- ference 50 per cent. ?:—-What I do is this: I make you a present of 7,000 besides, namely, children. 16073. I cannot get you to see that one thimg ; that what you deduct are the children of British children? —I ignore them. 16074. I wanted to add that 16,000 to my 45,000. That is what my calculation comes out at, and having done that,, I do not include the British-born progeny of the aliens ?-—— , 16075. (Chairman.) I should like these figures worked out, not in cross-examination. I am sure you would be able to agree with Major Evans-Gordon about these figures?—I will make Major Evans-Gordon a present of 7,000 children. 16076. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say the- census returns only show aliens in the County of London?— We are talking only of the County of London. 16077. Is it not the fact that there is a considerable number of aliens in London suburbs, such as Hack- ney, Ley ton, Manor Park, Walthamstow, and Ilford, who are all included in the London figures ?—That is so to-day ; but it was not so two or three years ago. 16078. But it is so to-day?—Yes. 16079. (Chairman.) Are they spreading?—'They are spreading very largely. "We are doing all we can to send them from the town. 16080. (Lord Bothschild.) When you say a very large number, it is insignificant of the total number of Jews here ?—Yes ; but they can only go by small numbers at a time. 16081. (Chairmani) If you send them out, of course, you get rid of them in the centres. It does not make very much difference ?—No. 16082/ (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you say: "The alleged evil is thus materially narrowed ; for the alien question is thus reduced' simply to a local one< affect- ing not the Empire, nor even the Metropolis, but solely the borough of Stepney." A similar question has arisen, or is arising, in Leeds, Manchester, and other centres, is there not?—I have not heard of any. There liave been no cases of hardship alleged. There are a great number of Jeiws ait Leeds.; but the community there are able to deal with them. , 16083. Is it not a fact that the neighbouring borough of Bethnal Green is becoming affected ?—I think not. The Jew® are spreading about in all directions, and I dare say Bethnal Green has more Jews than it had 20 years' ago. Bethnal Green is much more respect- able now than'it used to be since Jews have gone there. Bethnal Green used to be a terrible place. 16084. (Chairman.) From what cause?—There was a great deal of immorality about that neighbourhood in the days, when the weavers were in Bethnal Green. I knew it 40 years ago. It was a terrible place. I think you have had some evidence about that, too. 16085. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I have already with regard to the paragraph just preceding that, with regard to this agitation being an anti-Jewish agitation, I cannot say more than that I protest against that very strongly myself?—I do not think -it is so. I do not think, so far as you are concerned, there is the slightest anti-Jewish feeling ; but your constituents have shown a very vast amount of anti-Jewish feeling. I do not think you are responsible for it; I should be wry sorry to say so. 16086. I am very glad to hear you say that. Then you say : " Assuming that many houses, even many streets^, in the borough of Stepney, formerly occupied by British Christians, are now occupied by Polish or Russian Jews, who have suffered injury?" Your con- tention is that the displacement of the population in- volves no- injury to the people displaced ?—With re- gard to the displacement of population, I think there has been , a gradual replacement; but jam must remem- ber that a very great number of trades have gone from that neighbourhood. For instance, all the waterside trade has gone. 16087. All the waterside trade ?—A very vast quan- tity of it since the dock strike—in which the late Car- dinal Manning took part, when he succeeded in getting sixpence an hour for the casual docker—'the dock com- panies have practically dispensed with casual labour as far as they possibly can, and have resorted to labour- saving machinery, which has isent away a vast amount of casual labour. Then many of the docks are empty, and there is not the amount of shipping coming into the London docks that formerly came. It has made an immense difference. 16088. Are there not an immense number of trades connected with the docks ; for instance, all the dock labourers and all the watermen, and lightermen, and does not the neighbourhood of the City make Stepney a place which would always be desirable as a residence for the working classes of all kinds %—It is, no* doubt. 16089. It is right on the confines of the City?1—It is nO doubt a good place, for those who must, to live in. 16090. Do you not think there are many hundreds of these people who have unquestionably left the neigh- bourhood who would have gladly remained if they could ?—-They could remain if. they wanted to. The persons who have been giving evidence, making a griev- ance of their being supplanted, are people who pro- bably have been unfortunate in business, and people who are unfortunate in business have a way of blaming anybody but themselves, and so they blame the Jews. 16091. They do not blame the Jews: as Jews at all. In some instances they blame the Jews, and I think they are confirmed by many people who have written about the question. In some instances their action has been repudiated, and strongly repudiated by all people from the Chief Rabbi downwardis ; but I do not want to enter into that at all; I say the mere fact of an enormous quantity of people of that kind—50,000 or 60,000—coming in, has displaced a, great many people who have got quite as much necessity of living in that neighbourhood as the other people have—not business people, but the ordinary working class?—They have come in from natural causes, and the other people have gone out from natural cauisea. 16092. Do you call this a natural cause—a large in- flux of foreign population ?—You have to address your- self to the Emperor of Russia if you want to complain of that. 16093. But apart from outside influences, do you call it a natural cause to have this immense accretion of foreign population in one district of London? Is that a natural cause ?—I do not think it is a desirable cause. 16094. It may proceed from all sorts of reasons, which I will not go into; but do you call it a natural cause ? —'Evidently, it is natural. It may come from an ab- normal origin, and that abnormal origin is persecution, in another country. 16095. Your contention is, that there has been re- placement in consequence of natural causes?—Yes. 16096. (Chairman.) I should like you to explain why you say that the English native workman has gone out from natural causes. With regard to the others com- ing in, that is academic ; but what has caused the work- man to go out, apart from this strike at the docks ?— There are several trades which have gone ; the weaving industry has gone from Bethnal Green. 16097. (Major Evans 1Gordon.) That is a very old story ?—Not so very old. 16098. (Chairman.) Confine yourself to twenty years } —The whole of the sugar-baking trade has gone. That means a very large population. 16099. (Mr. Vallance.) That is twenty-five years ago ?—No, I do not think so long as that, because I built a sugar refinery about thirty years ago in Lambeth- street, Whitechapel. It was1 a new building thirty years ago. Then the unskilled labourer has gone to a very large extent—the coal whipping. There used to be a very large trade in the Pool with coal whipping. You can hardly call it unskilled labour, because it requires a certain amount of exercise of muscle, but there were a large number of coal whippers in the Port of London. That trade has entirely gone, because they have machinery which has superseded the labourers who unloaded' the coal from the colliers. The coals are now brought mainly by rail. 16100. (Major Evans 'Gordon.) Those no doubt have been influences, some of them of very old standing?-— No, I beg your pardon ; that is comparatively recent.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 563 16M1. But sugar baking and weaving?—No, the sugar baking was going on until quite a few years ago. 16102. Ten years ago?—Yes, I think,there were sugar refineries ten years ago. 16103. We know it has been a very declining trade, but mj point is this, that were it not for immigra- tion, oaf if that had not existed, all those houses in Stepney would shave been occupied, and gladly oc- cupied, by English working people ?—That is purely hyp^tlieti'cal. 16104. There is an immense desire to live in the neighbourhood of the City. Can you point to amy dis- trict in the immediate neighbourhood of the City where people have thrown up their houses unless they have Been obliged to?—Yes, all the neighbourhood of Cler- kenwell. There ha® been no influx of Jews there, and still there is a great scarcity of housing accommodation there. Anywhere near the City it is the same, simply for the reason that I have said, that there is competition between the warehouses and the dwelling houses. 16105. What you have in, Stepney is a direct substitu- tion of one class of people for another, and it is only fair, when you see there is an anti-Jewish feeling, and bitter feeling about it, to- say that it is> a. perfectly reasonable thing, and people do not like being turned out of their houses ?—I do not like the words. " turned out," because they have not been turned out. They have turned themselves out. 16106. They have turned themselves out because they will not pay the rents, and also, let me point out to you, in many instances, as I said before, these foreign landlords speculated in houses and put their own people in, and their conduct is very naturally complained of. With regard to that I must quote one of your own people, Mr. H. S. Lewi's?—You may quote me, because no one will speak more harshly about it than I do. 16107* " Harsh oppression, and even fraud, are too often associated with foreign Jews, who have recently invested im house property." That is Mr. H. S. Lewis who says that?—I1 quite agree with him, and I have nothing to say different on that point. 16108. We both admit there is harsh treatment, and I say that has been the cause' of displacing English people, and it is a perfectly natural reason for discon- tent. You must not be surprised alt it. I do not see any reason to be -surprised that it brings about a danger of a bitterness of feeling, which unquestionably has arisen. It is not an amazing thing?-—With regard to slum-owning, slum-owning is done quite asi much by the non-Jew as by the Jew. 16109. I admit that, too, from my point of view ; but 'still: the enormous influx of foreigners has created an enormous demand, and unscrupulous people—Jews and Gentiles—have speculated in house property, and these people keep the houses and our people do not. Consequently there is discontent. Then you say, " In Stepney, as in most other parts of London near the City borders, there had long been a gradual but steady rise in rents, consequent on the erection, of business premises, factories, and warehouses, on sites formerly occupied by small tenements." Do you attribute the rise of rents to the erection of business premises?— To> a very large extent. 16110. Have you seen Mr. Harper's evidence on this point with regard to the rise in rents ? He was asked, " Before you leave that point,' have similar rises in rents to your knowledge occurred in other parts of Lon- . don ? " and he answers, " There are other parts of Lon- don in which increases of rents have occurred, but to nothing like the same extent as in this district I am dealing with"?—I differ from Mr. Harper there. In the City of Westminster, all about this immediate neighbourhood, the price per room in the centres of the labouring-class population is quite as high as in Stepney. 16111. I should like you to support that by figures, because we have Mr. Harper showing this enormous and abnormal rise in the East-End, which is very striking ?-—I happen to know, because I have had oc- casion to make inquiries. My firm is now engaged upon a large housing scheme for the Corporation of the City of Westminster, about ten minutes' walk from this plape, where we are building upon a site of about an acre and a half. We had occasion to inquire what rents the people could afford, and were amazed to fiud what rents are charged. The rents in the industrial 6144 centre of Westminster are quite as high as those in 1 Mr, N, S. Whitechapel. Joseph. 16112. (Chairman.) Was Mr. Harper asked to what Mar. 1908, extent clearances for these factories and large shops-- affected Stepney. (Lord Bothschild.) Mr. Harper said that had been lower in Stepney than any other part of London, and they had risen. (Chairman.) Did he take into account what Mr. Joseph has taken into account—the clearance for the large buildings? (Major Evans Gordon.) I do not think so. (Witness.) That is my contention. I have the figures here. (Lord Bothschild.) These are the words Mr. Harper used. He said the rise of rents had begun later in Stepney than elsewhere, and it had been more sudden and more gradual elsewhere, and that was the dif- ference; but he said there was no difference between the maximum. (Major Evans Gordon.) He says in term's, "There are other parts of London where increase of rents have occurred, but to nothing like the same -extent as in the district I am dealing with." Then the tables he gave us showed that. 16113. (Lord Bothschild.) You can tell us what the rents are in this district, because you are architect for the City of Westminster?—Only for their housing scheme. 16114. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where is that housing scheme ?—In Begency-street, Horseferry-road. 16115. (Lord Bothschild.) What are the rents there, compared with Stepney ?—'The slum rents are prac- tically 4s. a room in Westminster, and very bad rooms. 16116. Four shillings a room is charged in West- minster for what you in your model dwellings charge 2s. 6d. ?—Yes. 16117. And what the County Council charge 3s. for ? —Yes, they charge 3s. and 3s. 6d. 16118. And you charge 2s. 6d. ?—Yes, in your 4 per cent, company's dwellings. 16119. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is this 4s. a room in the new buildings ?—No, in slums, about the worst rooms. 16120. (Lord Bothschild.) That is to rise in Stepney, Mr. Harper, in his evidence, says: "Then Table 2B deals with 22 streets, situated in the parish of Mile End Old Town, and shows that out of 145 houses visited, rents have been raised since 1890 in 107 cases, or 74 per cent., by amounts varying from an average per room per week of 2d. to 3s. 7d." So unless your rooms in Westminster were previously let for 5d. a room, there has been a rise of 3s. 7d. above the price here in Stepney ?—I think that must be taken with some modification. He says from 2d. to 3s. 7d.r does he not? 16123. No, a rise per week of from 2d. per week to 3s. 7d. per week ?—I suppose that means the average. 16124. In some cases 2d., and in some cases 3®. 7d. P—• He means that he knows of one particular case where there is a rise of 3s. 7d. 16125. The average increase being lid. per room?— That I can understand. The 3s. 7d. I can well under- stand. It may be a room which serves the double pur- pose of a room and a shop, and that has quite a fancy value. A ground floor, which may be used as a shop, may have quite a fictitious value. I think that would be quite a fair addition. 16126. You would not agree with Mr. Harper, with his wide experience all over London, that to nothing like the same extent in any other district that he is ac- 4 B 2564 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : 16 Mar. 1903 Mk Nr._ quainted with has there been such a rise as there has been in the East End ?—I am surprised to find that his average is so low as lid. 16127. That is only one particular street P—No, that is practically his representative case. 16128. No. There are any amount of other instances I could quote, but I only hit upon that one. In one in- stance, Clark Street, Stepney, he found the rise in the rent was 163 per cent. P (Chairman.) I asked Mr. Harper, " Did Stepney start low ? and he says, " Yes, Stepney started low. These districts "—that is, other districts—" have been at a high level for some time, and the increase was probably much more gradual than in Stepney, but when Stepney began to go up, these districts had already attained a considerably higher level." So you must take into con- sideration from what they started. Stepney started low, and you get a greater proportion of increase, but you must look at what the rent is at the end of the time that you are comparing. I do not see that he is asked anything about the cost of the clearances. (Major Evans-Gordon.) No. We did not dwell upon thati > Adjourned for a short time. 16129. (Major Evans-Gordon.) On page 3 of your statement you say, "The reason of increase of rents in Stepney (which is common to every district of Lon- don) is doubtless due, to some small extent, to the de- mand created by the new settlers." Would the very large number of people who have come from abroad be something greater than a small extent?—Of course, it is quite gradual. It is a small extent per annum. 16130. Then you say, "But the main cause is the struggle for existence of the dwelling against the shop, factory, or warehouse, which threatens to displace it" ? —Yes. I believe so. 16131. But that is going on elsewhere besides Step- ney, is it not?—Not to that extent, because it is imme- diately adjoining the City. 16132. Factories and workshops have not been built to the same extent in other parts as they have in Step- ney ?—I should not think to so great an extent. Per- haps, about CIerkenwell, it would be to the same extent. 16133. This destruction of house property, owing to extension of factories, has surely been largely compen- sated for by^he great number of block dwellings that have been put up, has it not?—No, certainly not. Not anything like it. 16134. Not?—No. 16135. We had evidence from Whitechapel to say it) had been more than compensated for, and that, when they put up one of these dwellings, the same amount of land accommodated a great many more people than were displaced from the small dwelling houses?—Acre per nacre. 16136. Take, for instance, Stepney Green, where the large block dwellings are. They used to be little cot- tages with three or four rooms, and now they accommo- date hundreds of persons?—Yes, that is so, without question. 16137. And all over the neighbourhood in the same way. Thei Census talks about a dwelling house, but, as you say, it is any building contained in four walls?—■ That is so. 16138. And, therefore, although the Census may show, -and does show, a very large but a certain falling off in dwelling accommodation, it does not, in the least, prove there is no more room. The definition of " house " is very illusory ?—There is no doubt it is partially so, but the number of block dwelling, compared with the whole number of dwellings, is extremely small. 16139. Then, in the next paragraph, you say: " The problems of overcrowding and high rents in the East End of London are, therefore, only part and parcel of the general housing problem of London and all the great towns, arid alien immigration is only a small, and, in- deed, insignificant factor of that problem." But if the alien population: pay the higher rents by overcrowding, how can you consider them an insignificent factor?— I am speaking numerically. 16140. I must refer here to Mr. Harper's evidence, Question 11,566, where I asked him, l< Would you say that the .overcrowding in the East End is worse than in any other parts of London ?—Yes, without doubt. The Borough of Stepney is the only one of the whole of the Metropolitan boroughs where not only has the num- ber of persons overcrowded, increased, during the last 10 years, but the percentage of persons overcrowded to the total population of the borough has also increased. This latter is not the case with any other borough." So that Mr. Harper's deliberate conclusion is that the over- crowding there is much more than in any other part of London ?—I do not know if he produced statistics of overcrowding—comparative statistics, because I think I can match part of Camberwell, where the overcrowding is greater. 16141. On so large a scale ?—I cannot speak about the scale, but in the report, to the County Council of Dr. Hamer, he gives examples of overcrowding, which are greatly in excess of any overcrowding you can find in Stepney. 16142. But are those spread over large districts?—• Yes. 16143: Numerous cases, not only isolated cases ?—Yes. I speak from the report. 16144. Here, at all events, we have the County Coun- cil authority, and I suppose he is the first authority amongst them who says it is worse than any other part of London?-—I do not agree. There are some statistics of the County Council which rather tend the other way. 16145. (Chairman.) Who is Dr. Hamer ?—The second medical officer of health of the County Council. I think that is his report (producing it). 16146. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You admit there is a demand from that class of the population, both alien and English, to live in that par ticular neighbourhood ?—■ I believe there is. Of course, it depends upon the trades. 16147. Proximity to the City, and so on, must be an attraction?—I do not think the question of the proxi- mity to the City affects the living accommodation, but tue people must live near their workshops. 16148. -Do not you think, then, that if there is a desire to live in that neighbourhood, and pressure' to live in that particular part, that there is a natural feeling that the native population should have the first choice, so to speak?—It depends upon the workshops. If there is, for example, a large number of tailors' workshops, and the aliens employed in those tailors' workshops want houses, there is no reason why they should not have a» good a choice as any. 16149. In fact, you would give them the preference over the English people?—Not the preference, but I should say equal right. 16150. You see no objection to the English popula- tion .being displaced by a foreign population ?—I do not consider they are displaced. 16151. There is the fact that, we will not isay how many thousands, but a great number of thousands of foreign population are there, who, had there been no influx,^ would not have been there ?—My impression ia that if there had been no influx, most of the houses which command these tremendously high rents would have been coverted into warehouses or factories, 16152. (Chairman.) Have we any statistics showing the number of houses in which overcrowding exists in Stepney ? 16153. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I could not say off- hand. Then, again, on page 3 you say : " The new settlers are universally acknowledged to be peaceful, quiet, law-abiding people, and, as they are remarkably sober, they give little trouble to the police." We have had evidence from Mr. Haden Corser, who says the alien population is giving a considerable amount of trouble to the police ?—Is that so ? 16154. Yes 1—It is something very new then. 16155. Then your statistics on page 4 have gone up, I see ?—I propose to withdraw that sentence, because it is no longer true. I propose to withdraw it because it is no longer true. 16156. I want to ask you with regard to what you say about the 348 Jews who were under -visitation in 1901 ; are all cases visited ?—All cases; I am speaking of London, and most of the Home Counties. 16157. It does not include any provincial cases that there are ?—Very few. I prefer to withdraw the whole of that paragraph, on the top of pasje 4 of my statement, because it is out of date. I mentioned on the last occa-MINUTES m EVIDENCE 565 •sion that it was no longer true; therefore it is just as well to withdraw it. 16158. There is a slight increase, that is all?—But .•still, it was my duty to call attention to the increase. 16159. Then in the second paragraph on page 4 you .«ay: " There is a special organisation—the Location -and Information Bureau of the last-named body— 80s. a week; 35s. a week. That does mot " look as if they are sweated. (Lord Bothschild.) Those are people you have found places for here? 181741 (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are they different trades ? —Yes. 16175: What trades are they ?—Tailors, cabinet- . makers, bootmakers, underclothmg-miakers, wood carvers, box-makers, cap-makers, furriers, upholsterers, ; bamboo worker Sj clerk, corset-makers, engineer, man- ■ tle^-mjakers, shirt^ma;ker», tanner. 16 Mar. 1903; 16176. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Apart from special Mr.N.Si cases, have you any knowledge of the la/bour market Joseph. generally ?—No, I have not; it is quite out of my pro- vince. 16177. (Chairman.) With regard to this evidence about the wages, does not the restult come to this— that the greener comes over here, and for a time earns very small wages, and at the same time there must be skilled men who come too, and who can earn large wages %—Yes. 16178. It is the question between the unskilled greener and the skilled worker?—Many of the un- skilled greeners we convert into skilled men. 16179. It takes time ?—It takes time. 16180. And it means :low wages while they are work- ing?—-That is so. 16181. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you say, in con- clusion : " It is very obvious that the measure sug- gested would be open to various objections on grounds of public policy, and it is doubtful whether its resulting advantages would not be overweighed by its disadvan- tages." What, in your opinion, would be the disad- vantages 1—The disadvantages of method, do you mean ? 161821 No. You say, "It is very obvious that the measure suggested would be open to various objections on the grounds of public policy, and it is doubtful whether its resulting advantages would not be over- weighed by its disadvantages." What would be the disadvantages ?—The disadvantage would be rather a sentimental one. Hitherto the foreigner -coming over here has an; idea that when he touches this country he has all the rights and privileges of an Englishman. Well, he would not, because he would have to be under some kind of police observation. 16183. You yourself would think that registration would not be a bad thing ?—I think registration would! be a good thing. I mean for the prevention of crime, iso that the police might be always in the position to drop down upon a man who is about to commit a crime. 16184. (Chairman.) Would you explain how you could work that out?—I mean that the police need not wait until a dynamitard has absolutely blown up a house, and that if they suspect a place where explo- sives are being accumulated, they could drop down, on the man then and there, if he were registered. 16185. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Then the dynamitard commits an offence? (Chairman.) He would be registered?—If our police had information from the police in the other country that this man was known to be an anarchist or that man known to be a forger, and so on, he would be looked after, and they would keep an eye upon him, -and pro- bably prevent the commission of the crime before it was actually consummated. 16136. (Sir .Kenelm Digby-) Do not- you think that is done now to some extent P—I do1 not know. 16187. With regard to the number of aliens that you told us about, I do not think that your evidence as regards the Board of Trade statistics differs from that of Mr. Llewellyn Smith. Did you' read his evidence P— I think I did. 16188. Let me read you this one answer, given on the very first diay; at Question 34 : " But of the persons who do not hold through tickets or do not book beyond en route, do many people continue' their voyage after having arrived at our English ports?" His answer is : "We have knowledge that, a considerable number do so continue, but I eould not say how many. We have taken means to obtain information so far as possible with regard to London, of which I can only say that the result is to' show that a good many go through, but without showing the whole number." That is, sub- stantially, what you say ?—Yes. 16189; And, therefore, any figures which are reliecf on to show the number of alliens who are not said to be en, route can hardly be accepted as very conclusive evidence as to the numiber of people who are actually here?—That is my view. 16190. (Chairman.) Do you know anything about the habit of foreign; shipping companies with regard to their charges, by which it is cheaper to book to England ?— I think you will have that evidence from Mr. Landau. 16191. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to the aliens of the class you'describe as the Salonica, aliens, do they com© from1 other places in the same way and under the game sort of conditions ?—No, I think not.566 TiOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : My. N. S. 16192. Are they still continuing to come from that Joseph. part?—Yes; we had a few last year—not-many, I think •-— seven or eight case®. They did not come in that objec- 16 Mar. 1903. tionable way ; they came by way of Marseilles. 16193. But these aliens have come, according to.you, to different ports, not to London?—With regard to those'two batches which I have referred to, one went to Hull and the other to Boston. 16194. When you say you have to nurse them after they come here, has that involved any very great amount of expenditure ? I want to get some idea of how numerous these people are?—That is very difficult to say. We do not keep separate accounts of those, but I have no doubt that the expense is considerable. We do not leave a case alonei until it is self-sustaining. 16195. As a rule, do you generally succeed in putting these people on their legs ?—Yes, even the most help- less. Even those who appear to us upon arrival as undesirables become, very many of them, quite different . 16196. Have you hiad many oases in which they have oome back to you for help, and you have been obliged to. get them away?—No. The only cases are cases of ill-health; there are cases, but they are quite excep- tional. Wihen we have considered we have finished with the case, a man's health breaks down, and we may h^ve to help him up again. 16197. You say those are exceptional ?—Quite excep- tional. 16198. Have you many cases of persons coming ovek here in a state of very bad health, suffering from very bad disease, or anything of that kind?—No, I cannot say there are many cases of disease. We have had a few consumptives, and those we have generally advised to return, because we consider that the English climate is thoroughly bad for anybody with a consumptive tendency. In those cases we always give them the money in hand. We return them, of course, without any cost, and also we give them money in hand to start again in their old home. 16199. (Lord Rothschild.) But no arrangement pre- venting the landing of diseased people would exclude a large number. Is not that what you mean ?—Yes. 16200. (iSir Kenelm Digby.) I want to get the fact whether there are many of these people ?—Very few, I think. They are those who are weakly. I should ex- clude the Salonica cases, which are malaria cases, but, generally, those whom I refer to as requiring nursing are really cases simply attenuated by long privation. I do not mean to say they are anything like the larger proportion 16201. Have you given much consideration to this Alien Expulsion Act %—As I mentioned here, I make the suggestion) with great reserve and diffidence. I say in my private statement that it is obvious the measures suggested would be open to serious objections. I am not very hopeful, but, as I suppose something will have to be done, I think it is better to do it in that direction rather than by exclusion on arrival. 16202. Do not you think it would be very dangerous to give these large powers to the Home Secretary ?— It means the police. 16203. Bo not you think it would be rather dangerous to give these powers to the police without any judicial authority?—I should not think there was any great danger, particularly while Sir Kenelm Digby is at the Home Office. *r 16204. (Mr. Vallance.) You speak of the aliens who require to be nursed into health. At whose expense is hat done?-—I may say entirely at the expense of the lusso-Jewish Committee. 16205. Are you acting in concert with the Jewish Board of Guardians?—The Conjoint Committee is a joint committee of the Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewish Committee. Half the number belong to one body and half to the other. ' 16206. Then these aliens must be excluded from those who are not relieved during the first six months?— I bave made that clear. I thought Mr. Cohen told you that. 16207. I take it these figures are included also in •V Mr. Cohen's figures ?—No, I think not. They are in a separate table. You will find it in Mr. Cohen's book. 16208- (Lord Rothschild.) Those are the repatriation T emigration figures from the Joint Committee?—Yes. f: 16209. (Mr. Vallance.) I want to make it clear with .reference to these census returns. You seek to account for the large increase in foreign poor between 1891 and 1901 by saying that " The census returns show a larger increase of Russians and Poles since 1891 than the fore- going statistics would justify. This may be due to the- fact that the organised help given by the Jewish com- munity in 1901 secured accurate' census returns of the Jewish population for the first time; while in 1891 the enumerators, having little or no knowledge of the language of the immigrants, had to accept imperfect papers, and the figures were necessarily inaccurate." Is it not a fact that in 1891, ias in 1901, there was a co-operate arrangement for securing accurate re- turns ?—It was not at all successful. It was a very small effort in 1891; a very imperfect organisation. I do- not know how many enumerators were engaged a® helpers, but it was a very imperfect organisation. 16210. Have you any recollection of a meeting in 1891- at Toynbee Hall ?—Yes, I think so. 16211. Were you present ?—I was not present, but I heard of it. 16212. At all events, although the arrangements- might not have 'been as perfect as they were in 1901, yet there were arrangements, and the Jewish com- munity assisted in those arrangements ?—They did assist, and I think they did their best, but they had not a sufficiently large number of Yiddish-speaking helpers. 16213. We must not necessarily conclude that on©" was a perfect arrangement and the other was no- arrangement at all ?—No, but the one was perfect and the other imperfect. 16214. With reference to this question of overcrowd- ing, as I understand, you say these increases of rents * cause the overcrowding, and the overcrowding in its- turn causes the high rents?—Yes. 16215. And you are in favour of the London County Council receiving encouragement to prosecute their- housing schemes?—Yes. 16216. But you also say that " the magnitude of the problem may be appreciated by the fact that all the- housing efforts of the London County Council up to September, 1900, had resulted in providing dwellings - for less than 32,000 persons." Has the work of the London County Council in the provision of these dwell- ings made any serious and material impression uponr this question of overcrowding?—I think so. I think since the date of Mr. Stewart's Report upon the Housing- Question they have engaged in very large 'schemes, , probably quite amounting to that figure of 32,000. 16217. You think that, to the extent of 32,000, there has been considerable relief?—Yes, I think so, but it. is totally inadequate. 16218. From your professional standpoint, would you say that this municipal provision of 'accommodation has stimulated the provision of houses, or has it discouraged^ private builders from embarking upon it ?—That is very difficult to say. ^ From the social economy point of view- it would be a mistake to encourage municipal housing,. because, of course, they work to pay 3 per cent., and the ordinary speculator cannot afford to live on 3 per* cent. 16219. Therefore the private speculator would be dis- couraged from embarking into it?—Yes, but I should' say the private speculator has hitherto produced such rubbish that it is contrary to public policy to allow the^ private speculator to have his own way any longer. 16220. But even assuming that the private speculator has produced such rubbish in some cases, is there not. another side to that, that the private speculator has - been able to put up houses which may be occupied at - lower rents than the others ?—I think not. I know a . set of private speculators who are building, and who • have built, a large number of block dwellings, but their rents are fully twice as higb as those which are charged by other bodies who build. 16221. I will not go further with that part of the* question. With reference to your suggestions, you are- in favour of the expulsion of undesirables ?—Yes, if it is possible. 16222. And you place your own definition upon the - term " undesirable No, but I give examples of un- desirables. 16223. To that extent you are in favour of the ex- clusion or expulsion of certain people ?—Yes. 16224. But you merely say you are not in favour, apart from practicability, of a restriction upon the- immigration ?—I am not in favour of a restriction upon < immigration.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 567 16225. (Chairman.) Not of anybody?—I mean except in obvious oases. Supposing a man comes, evidently suffering from small-pox, I would not say you..should Allow him to land. 16226. Or even supposing we got a telegram saying that 'he was a criminal or Anarcjhist, you would not .allow him to land ?—I should say the police must keep their eye upon him. The man does not look like an Anarchist when he arrives. He looks like anybody 'else. 16227. I assume that they inform us by telegram that .«uch a man is coming, anid he is known as an Anarchist. It would not be a case on the view then, but we should have information ?—There ought to be some power given .to arrest such a man at once on arrival. • 16228. He has committed no crime here ?—It does not follow that the freshly arrived alien should have all -the rights of the Habeas Corpus Act. He has not got •it in his own country. 16229. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It would depend to some • extent on whom you got the information from?—Yes. 16230. (Chairman.) But I assume you, get information -you can rely upon. However, that is your view. With regard to your repatriation, what is the class of people you repatriate ?—There are a great number of classes. People who have never done work in their lives at all, who have been habitual beggars ; then, of course, they .always express themselves ready to work, and ask for relief until they can get work. People likei that we refer to our bureau officer, who, on the following day, ifinds them and offers them work. It is our labour test. If they refuse work we know that it is not a genuine ^case. Perhaps we try them two or three times in that way, and if they always refuse, then we know that they .are adventurers after the money. Then we refuse them .all help. We tell them we will help them to return, but give them no other help. 16231. I suppose you do that partly because you do not wish to devote your funds to such people, and partly in the interests of the community ?—Yes. 16232. Now, where does the repatriation step in ? You -say, " We will not give you help except to return home"?—Yes. 16233. Do they then return home willingly?—Per- Ihaps they will be at first very unwilling, and they will ,asik for help in the meantime, which we always refuse them. Eventually they will come and say, "We are .quite prepared to go home." 16234. The fact is, you starve them out of the country? —Yes. -We give them a good' trial first. We do not jumjj at a conclusion that a man is -an undesirable, but we prove he is an undesirable before we send him back. 16235. Are there any other persons except the in- •: stances f you have t given ? Would bad health cause you rto repatriate ?—-It depends. If it is the head of the family, and if. the man evidently never could become well and strong, we treat him with great kindness, but we do eventually send him, back. 16236. There are cases of relief you have to start with. You do not have' to touch persons like a prostitute, who does not com© to you for relief ?—No. 16237. You hav<3 only to deal with the sick and • wanting ?—That is so. 16238. You have only produced the result of volun- tary repatriation. You have never had to resort to a person in invitum to make him go ?-—No, of course, we have no legal powers of any kind. 16239. You scarcely touch tdie question by analogy - even of expulsion?—No, you cannot call it expulsion, I should imagine. It is simply, as you say, a case of •starving out. 16240. Do you find that some persons have a great - unwillingness to go on account of what they fear when they arrive back, in their own country, namely, persecu- -tion?-—Yes, there have been cases of men who, to some extent,, are fugitives, from justice:—some sort of justice. For example, a man who has run away from military service. He fears that he will be imprisoned on his return. 16241. What effect has that on you? Do, you still urge him to go, or do you yield to that fear ?—It depends upon the man. If the man is a capable man we help 'him here. If he is incapable, then we tell him, "You *must go back," and eventually he does go back. " 16242. It is a very great question. I do not know -whether you know anything about it. But supposing a man has been persecuted, or supposing he thinks he has been unjustly treated, repatriation by force would be rather a strong measure to take, would it not ?—Oh, yes. 16243. I, do not say it should1 not b© applied ; but take the most undesirable, say he is a greener, and is not working, would expulsion take place in such a case as that ?—Expulsion an- nounce their intention of staying in London may re- main at the shelter for a period not exceeding two weeks, after which they must leave. The average period of their stay at the shelter is six days. I may say that no dock' or boat charges are paid by the shelter, as stat:ed. The precise particulars relating to every in- dividual are entered in the books of >th& institution so far as they can be ascertained. Few, if any, of the immigrants are actually destitute. Fully 60 per cent, are skilled workmen, and some bring their own tools with them. Of the remaining number, half (20 per cent.) are women and children, and a® a. large number of the residue are dealers, etc., there are comparatively few who have no real calling. The immigrants are al- most without exception healthy and strong. They have to go through two medical examinations, one at the Russo-German frontier and the other at the German port of embarkation, so that they all must be healthy before they are allowed to proceed to this country." I may say that I have all the necessary documents' to> prove every statement I make, and the registers, and so on. 16275. I do not think that is controverted at present. ? —I produce; the medical officer's certificate in English and German from Hamburg testifying to it. '' I pro- duce tickets showing the medical officer's stamp on them. The bill of health of the shelter has been re- markable, only one case of sickness having been found in the laist six years. This is especially to be noted, as in the long fatiguing journey across Europe in the trains and ships, which , are very often overcrowded and insanitary,- there is every opportunity for the outbreak of illness." 16276. That is a most serious statement. Do you mean there was nobody coming with any disease at all among them when you say " sickness " ?—I do, my Lord, absolutely. 16277. It is a remarkable statement. In the last six years was no person suffering, even accidentally, from disease?—There was one solitary case. We have had no doctors' bills for I do not know how long. It is four years since we had one. , 16278. How many persons do you say passed through the shelter in that time?—-During the last six years the figures would be about 14,000 to 15,000, more, per- haps. 16279. I should1 not doubt any word you say, but it is a most remarkable fact?—It is very remarkable, and that is why I 'have particularly stated it. 16280. In six years you have not had one single per- son ill. However, there it is ?—Yes. " The relief given by the shelter; is essentially only temporary, and can- not by any stretch of the imagination be termed an attraction to the immigrants. ' A very large proportion 6144. of the expenditure of the shelter (nearly half) is paid by the shipping companies, and the amount contributed Landau. by the Jewish community is small. (See Table A, post <—~ 16309.) The superintendent hands me a cheque for ^ ^ar-190& £500 lis. from one of the shipping companies paying " for their immigrants who passed through in six weeks. 16281. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is included in the price of the ticket?1—The immigrant pays it, I take it. 16282. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is the Union and Castle Line ?—'Yes, they have amalgamated. " The amounts of money which the immigrants have in their possession it is difficult to gauge. They have been robbed all along their journey by almost every official or other person who can snare them, and, therefore, it is no wonder that they are chary of disclosing their means to the Customs officer, or, indeed, anyone who poses as an authority. In a large number of cases per- sons who stated that they had no money .afterwards ad- mitted that they had, or were discovered to have a sub- stantial sum in their baggage or concealed about their persons." I may state here, from my own personal experience, in one case a man declared he had not got a penny until his clothes were about to be disinfected at the shelter, and he wasi told it was very likely if he had auv paper money it would be burnt. A very con- siderable amount of money was them placed on the table. 16283. (Lord Rothschild.) How much had he?—I think it was £200 or £300, in all kinds of paper moneyy sewn up in his clothes. It is no criterion when a man answers the Custom House officer, " I have no money," because if in Russia he told an official he had money, the official would have it. Then I say : " This can be proved by the Board of Trade officer." I wish, my Lord, you would have that officer here again, because I know he has convinced himself that the statement I am mak- ing is perfectly correct—■" and the fact that they have had to spend quite a large amount of money in bribery and their tickets, is sufficiently indicative of the fact that they are not of the destitute class." I may say I have read Major Gordon's paper with the very greatest interest, and I am very much obliged to ihim for it, and I think he will support me when I say that the person in Russia who pays an amount of money to convey him across the frontier, and to> bribe the frontier guards, and to purchase his ticket is a person who is comparatively well off. It means a considerable amount of money. 16284. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He need not go that way?—He may go by Libau. 16285. Yes?—They are the better class people. "I desire here* to point out-that the statements which have been made that employers of labour have come to the shelter, and have been allowed to take away parties of ' greeners ' for their own purposes, or that the authori- ties of the shelter constitute themselves a labour agency, does not correspond with the. facts. I have prepared tables,4 showing the actual number of persons: who have- passed through the shelter for the last. 13 years. These- amount to 27,241, up to October, 1901. The number who stated their intention of leaving for abroad in the- same period was 17,260, forming about 63 per cent, of the whole. In my opinion, the number of immigrants actu- ally remaining in London has been greatly -exaggerated,. and the number mentioned in the table is 'misleading, for the following reasons : Large' numbers of people, who are- stated in the Board of Trade reports not to be en route* to America, actually do go to that, and other countries. The reason for their stating their destination to be Lon- don is this: Some time ago a ring or pool was formed fey the English and Continental Shipping Companies —I may say, especially the German shipping companies; <—" with a view to raising the fares, which at one time; sunk down to about 26s," 16286. (Chairman.) From where?—'Either Hamburg* or London. " The fare is now £8 10s. on the Continent, but in that ring English passengers, i.e., passengers em- barking from London were not included, and they can and do, now book to America for £3 less than the ring price. The conveyance of a passenger from Hamburg or Bremen to London until recently did not exceed 15s. (it. has now been raised to 24s.), leaving a considerable mar- gin between the Continental price of £8 10s., and the £5 10s. for which they can book from London. If, there- fore, a passenger arrives here, and straightway goes to* the shipping companies to book for America, the ship- ping companies, by their agreement, dare not issue a.570 xvOYAL commission on alien immigration : H. ticket to him unless he can prove that he has been in lau. England some considerable, time, and may, therefore, be - regarded as an English passenger. With a view of over- ^ Mar. 1903. coming this difficulty/the Continental agent advises the ~ emigrant, to say that his destination is London, and the aigentV correspondent in England induces him to .change his name, so that he need not wait in London for any length of time before proceeding with the cheaper, ticket. Moreover, there is one of the lines, not belonging at present to the ring, carrying passengers of this class openlv at a lower rate, no matter whence they come." I want to' explain here. Of course, if that is so, you wiir naturally' say, why need they change their names ? But that (solitary company which is not in the ring doe® not send ships every week. Therefore, he would have to wait before he could book by this one steamship com- pany. The agent, 'however, advises him, " If you say your name is different to What it is, you will not be recognised as an immigrant, and, therefore, you can hook by any of the' lines at any time you like, so you need not wait." 16287. (Major Evans-Gordon.) At a lower price?— Yes. 16288. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There is a slight inaccu- Tacy in the fourth - paragraph, which began: "A large number of people "—I do not know whether you would he disposed to correct it. You say: "A large num- ber of people, who are said in the Board of Trade re- ports not to be en route to America"; it ought to be, "A large number of persons who are included in the Board of Tirade reports as not stated to be en route to America " ?—Yes, I am much obliged if you will allow me to correct it. 16289. There is so imuch misconception about that that we might as well get it accurate ?—Quite so. " Num- bers of immigrants fare actually discovered to go to America, and other places after having stated their ^destination to. be London, and as they are conducted to th© station by the officials, of the shelter, and their tickets very often purchased for them, proof is positive -on, this point. I have prepared the names, and addresses of some? such emigrants during twelve months. These are furnished monthly to the Board of Trade at its r©- •quest.. It is, of course, probable that a certain number also leave after having proceeded to addresses in London. I think the Board of Trade has been put in possession of sufficient information on this subject to bear out my contention that a very considerable number ■do proceed to other countries, after having stated their ■destination to be London." Am I correct there, Sir IKenelm ? 16290. Perhaps it is hypercritical, but I understand what you mean ?—" My contention is that the immigra- tion is nothing like as large as has. been alleged, and, if ■some of the estimates that have been put forward were allowed, the alien population of England would now .amount to- several millions." Even Mr. Arnold White, at the committee meeting in 1888, made statements, and brought into the vestibule and the passages of th© House -of Commons a number of apparent immigrants from the East End, so that one would have thought there was a perfect invasion, and that England would be swamped. But, as a matter of fact, these persons were discovered to be hired and paid so much a head to come there and pose .as immigrants. 16291. {Major ."Evans-Gordon.) What were they ?—- "Some of the people have been here for 30 or 40 years "That was proved before the Committee, and you know what conclusion that Committee came to. The conclu- sion of the Committee was that for the present they «aw no reason for restrictive legislation. 16292. But they foresaw the time when legislation -wotild be necessary ?—Mr. Arnold White, and those who think with him, thought it was necessary to work up to something, and say, " Now the time has come to say so and so." 16293. (Chairman.) Will you now continue your 'paper " The Commissioners have the census figures as to the foreigners in the East End before them,, and these may be taken to< be substantially accurate. The immigration still continues, and the concentration of foreign Jews in the East End is large. I partly attri- bute the late increase in the number of immigrants to the recent agitation, and to the fact of the sitting of this Commission, which are interpreted on the Continent of Europe to intending emigrants as foreshadowing a ^complete exclusion of foreigners from this country." I may state that it is. the shipping agent abroad who makes capital out of it. He says if, you do not go now you. will not be able to> go afterwards, and the consequence is that all those who can get the money go to the ship- ping agent to purchase a. ticket. "Turning now to the general condition of the Jews in the East End, I will endeavour to deal seriatim with some of the aspects of the question, which have been dealt with by wit- nesses who have appeared before the Commission. Overcrowding.—I regard the large extent of overcrowd- ing, which is prevalent in the East End as a very great evil. I also look upon the herding to- gether of thousands, of human beings in Southwark, Hol- born, and other1 parts of the Metropolisi, in tenements which are a disgrace to our civilisation, as inimical to the national welfare. The overcrowding in nearly all the villages) in the country is, perhaps, as great, if not worsei, than that obtaining in the East End. In these districtsi aliens have not penetrated. The concentration in the East End is the result of natural causes. The fact that the docks arei situate in this district, th© pre- sence of markets, schools, synagogues, and friends and relations speaking the same language, force the immi- grants to endeavour to reside nearest the district where these advantages are to be found." The erection in the last few years of premises, such as the Wholesale Co-operative Stores, Limited, warehouses, breweries, railways, etc., have also been a large element in the overcrowding problem. A certain railway company pulled down a number of houses, accommodating, I am informed 2,000 persons"—not families—"none of whom, so far as I am aware, were rehoused by the company." 16294. (Major Evans-Gordon.) When was that?—Not many years ago:. I do* not particularly desire to men- tion the name of the railway company. 16295. (Chairman.) There is not the slightest objec- tion. What company do you refer to?—The London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway Company. Tliey - built enormous warehouses- just at the corner of Commercial Road on the right hand slide, going right down the whole of Lambeth Street. They took several streets completely away. It is quite possible they have made some provision for rehousing those who were expelled, but I am not aware of it. " It is, however, sufficiently serious to cause anxiety to all well-wishers of the national health and well-being. If no other result is the outcome of this Commission than a statesmanlike survey of the over- crowding problem, its formation will have, indeed, been, beneficial. My suggestion to< alleviate the present evil is to vigorously enforce the law. So long as slum land- lords are present on the authority that enforces the law, this cannot be done satisfactorily, but it should no longer be delayed." I have the names of slum landlords who are on these authoritiesi, but I do not think I, ought to discuss them here. The Commission will be able to get, them from other sources. Then I deal with criminals. "Every population has its quota of criminals, and the ideal that is expected—that there should be no criminals among Jews or foreigners—is indeed high. From my experience the class- of alien immigrant that settles in East London is far from being of the criminal type. No people desires to have criminals in its midst, and if any method be found, by which it would be possible to remove foreign criminals from this country without en- dangering its welfare lin other respects, no one will re- joice more than the most ardent supporters of the aliens in East London. The foreign criminals, of whom men- tion hay been m'ade before the Commission, are a d if- tinct class apart from the hard-working alien immi- grants, and, I may say, are of a very recent arrival, and, in view of the severe handling they are receiving, the country may rest assured that the deterrent will be salutary. They are enter- prising and ingenious, and they will enter the country if they wish, whatever measures are taken to exclude them. It has recently been the fashion for some newspapers, whenever a foreigner is connected or charged with a crime, to announce the fact in bold headlines, and everything is done to make the public believe that all foreigners are criminals." This is one result of the recent agitation. It seems to be for- gotten that extradition treaties are still in force between most civilised countries, and that numbers* of criminals are extradited every year. Causes of emigration.—The causes of emigration from Hussia are undoubtedly the divers forms of persecution andMINUTES OF the condition in that country under which, the Jews have to live. Freedom is an unknown word. The re- , strictions which have been placed on the Jews in Russia as to education, etc., have been so well described by Major Gordon in his report that they need no recapi- tulation from me. Poverty is seldom the cause of emigration. The people are loth to depart from the land of their birth; they are unwilling to emigrate, in spite of persecution. The difficulties placed in the way of the Eussian Jews to leave the country are numerous, and the people are virtually smuggled across the frontier"—those who want to emigrate. " The emigration from Houmania is directly due to the action of the Government in that country. Then I deal with alleged attractions. It has been stated by Mr. Arnold White and others that the Jewish charitable institu- tions in this country constitute an attraction^ to the immigrants. I give an unqualified denial to this state- ment. I have furnished you with the actual amount spent by the shelter, and have stated that its benefits are given, on the average, for six days. The shelter, therefore, does not relieve; it merely provides a refuge of a temporary kind, and to passengers only. The President of the Jewish Board of Guardians has told you that no relief is given by that institution to persons who have been here less than six months, and then the cases are carefully investigated and discriminated. Mr. White, I am afraid, is endeavouring to give our people credit for an amount of charitableness and sympathy ^vhich they do not altogether merit. He must think that every Jew is prepared to make every possible ■sacrifice for his fellow. His sympathy for co-religionists g^s, however, not greater than that of a Christian for a fellow Christian. We know the great efforts that were made in this country on behalf of the Bul- garians, the Armenians, and so on, and the sym- pathy Christians have for their co-religiondsts they surely cannot grudge to Jews for fellow members of their faith. As for the greater liberality in charitable matters attributed to the Jews, I would direct your attention to the fact that, if the amount of money ex- pended by the Jewish Board of Guardians be taken and compared with an urban parish containing a similar number of inhabitants to the number of Jews in London, you will find that the amount expended by the Jewish Board of Guardians on its poor is certainly less than that which is paid by way of poor-rates in such urban parish. I need not here repeat what has been stated so clearly by the Chairman of the Whitechapel Board of Guardians, that the proportion of Jewish aliens which come on the poor-rates is almost nil. As to trade attraction, England. &as long .ceased to be an attraction to -the labour market of the Continent." Labour.—My experience tells me that it is not the low wages that press the workman in the East End of London; but the lack of continuous employment. Among the tailors especially the employment only ex- tends to two or three, and at most four, days per week, and only for a very short time in what is called the ' season' is there full, employment. In my opinion, so far from the immigration of al'ibns having ■affected trades injuriously, it has been of considerable benefit to the country at large." My Lord, I am old enough to re- member when the British workman, in England did not think it beneath his dignity to wear the cast-off clothing of his superiors. Why? Because to buy a suit of clothes would have cost him three or four, or five pounds; he can now purchase a very crediJtable suit of clothes for 14s. 16296. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not find them averse to getting suits of clothes from their superiors now, when they get the chance ?— something like £5,000,000 sterling. I have "bought shoes in 'Germany which the man praised to me "because he said they came from England. That shows that goods of English East End manufacture go to Germany, and German money comes to England. I think they have done some good for the country. 16297. Were those shoes you refer to in Germany made in the East End ?—They were made in the East End of London. " The aliens have stimulated industry. In no case has it been shown that wages have been lowered in any trade .in which aliens work. In a large number 6144. EVIDENCE. 571 of cases the price to the consumer of articles has been j^r jj considerably cheapened. As for the working class, Landau. they have every reason to be thankful for the presence — of alien workers. Particular sections of various trades 16 Mar. 1908 have always complained of competition." You will ----— find generally that the competition comes from the tailors themselves. I remember being on the rota at the Board of Guardians, and a young fellow applied for relief. I thought, being a young fellow, he should seek work. He said: "I cannot get work; these greeners interfere with me." I said : " How long have you been here ?" "Oh," he said, " I have been here nine months." Therefore the others are greeners. I have heard witnesses here, and I have read some of their evidence, who are themselves greeners. It is only that they have been here a year ex- two longer, and they are the people who complain about the other greeners. They are the real complainants. Your British workman benefits, because he can buy cheap boots for himself and his wife aiudi his children, and cheap clothes, and so on. " In this case, whatever competition there is is healthy. I admit that work is sometimes done under conditions injurious to health, but I do not admit that any harm has been done in these cases, except to the workers themselves; and the conditions are certainly superior to those now prevail- ing in some parts of Staffordshire, and the only remedy •is>—^apply the factory laws vigorously." " Glass workers.—As an illustration of the good that some foreign labour does to this country, some time ago, to my great horror, a very large number of German workmen arrived, all of them haying agreements for employment in this country. I was naturally very much astonished, and followed the matter up, when I found that they were imported by a glass manufac- turer." I may mention, my Lord—I daresay^ you are aware of it—that the origin of all anti-alien immigra- tion questions was a very great strike in the United States, and a certain manufacturer, who thought him- self ruined unless his works could be carried on, tele- graphed over to his correspondent in Germany, and that correspondent sent him 70 workmen to carry on the works pending the settlement of this great strike. The labour party in the United States then took the- matter up. Originally, the law was against contract labour, but they carried it to such extremes that, when a clergyman was landed there to take charge of a congregation, he was regarded as a contract labourer, and for some time there was a difficulty about his admission. That was the origin of all questions of alien immigration. Consequently, when these glass- workers arrived with agreements for work in this country, I was very naturally nervous about it. 16298. (Sir Kenelrn Digby.) How long ago was this; strike in America?—The Home Office was informed of it at the time, I believe about two years ago. The origin was this: " Within recent years a bottle- has been introduced with a screw stopper, thereby effecting a great economy in corkage. All these- bottles 'were imported from Germany, of course, free from any duties. Those that were made in this country were produced at so high a price that they could not. compete with the imported bottles. ^ This enterprising manufacturer"—there is no particular reason for secrecy, and I believe this manufacturer has large works in North Woolwich—" engaged the workmen that made the cheap article in Germany at very high wages, stipulating, however, that each man was to have two [English apprentices, who might learn how to make these- bottles." Then I deal with " Qualities of the alien immigrants": "It hasi been stated that these immi- grants come to this country with anti-English senti- ments, and retain them after their arrival. This is; false. ? There were some 2,500 Jews serving at the front in the late South African war. A large number of these were the sons of foreign immigrants, and many themselves born abroad. Many sons of foreigners ar^ serving in the Army and Volunteers, and their loyalty is beyond dispute. ' There are nearly 1,000 lads belong- ing to the Jewish Lads' Brigade in the East End, manr of whom were born abroad. The second generation, at any rate, forms an integral part of the general com- munity. They adopt English customs of life, and be- come, on the whole, a worthy section of the nation. One of the injunctions of Jewish teachers is that the- Jews should be loyal subjects of the country in which they live, and 1,900 years of persecution and ill-treat- ment have not brought forth a single instance where Jews, as such, proved disloyal to the countries' in which- they dwelt." ' I assure you that very often, in the- 4 c 2572 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGKATION : Mr, B. ^belter itself, one hears regrets from these immigrants Landau, of 'having to leave their country and their Czar; their *yr~~~ loy<y is intense until they come to learn and appre- lo .Mar. 1903. ciate England. They are loyal subjects of every country. ~ " Mr. White stated that, when all the bad and doubtful qualities of the Russian Jews were weigned against -their good qualities, it was impossible to compare the Russian Jews with the immigrants from the ' low countries.' I would reverse this observation, and, as far as England is concerned,, in my opinion, the former Immigrant is the more desirable, and for the reason that, whereas immigrants from the low countries, with whom Mr. White makes the comparison (I take at because he has also a little racial feeling, as he told me a few years ago that he is descended from a Dutch family, and- therefore I might excuse him), in many oases, when they make money here, retire with it to their own land, instances of this kind I have not yet come across in regard to Russian and Polish Jews. Once they have settled here, the more prosperous they are, the more reluctant -are they to return to their naitive land. They spend money here, found families, and ev6n a money-lender leaves his millions to national charities. That the immigrants are thrifty and sober even their most bitter opponents will not deny. It has been stated that they represent the scum of Europe. This I dispute. That they .are the worst class of Russians physically and morally is obviously untrue. Their physique on arrival is distinctly superior to that of the town-bred Londoner. The absence of contagious diseases and the high standard of vitality of the Jews afford evidence on this point. That they are morally in- ferior to the native I also dispute. The majority of the foreign prostitutes are not Jewesses, and the traffic :in women is a movement apart altogether from alien immigration, as such, and common to all countries." There is a telegram this morning in the " Times " show- ing that even Spain has taken up the same question about; white slave traffic. " If the law can be strength- ened with a view to purifying the streets of those who make capital of human/ passion a most desirable im- provement will have been achieved. The slums of the East End compare favourably with other parts or London an-2 the country and with the slums of other great cities, e. g., Paris, Berlin, ete. It is greatly un- i fair to ascribe conditions which exist generally through- out the country to the influx of alien immigrants in the East End." Then, " Standard of living " : " As to the standard of living of the people, this has been altogether based upon inaccurate information. The number of butchers' shops devoted exclusively to the •sale of Kosher meat in the Whitechapel district, the considerable sale of fish, and the phenomenal sale of poultry are, in my opinion, conclusive proof; and, in- deed, I can say from my own experience that these [people live very well indeed, and considerably better chan the average British workman. The immigrants are, on the whole, law-abiding and quiet. Soon after they come to this country they adopt English ways to a large extent. As to their alleged insanitary lives, it requires rather more than a casual visit to the East End to be able to jud^e the mode of living of these people. How many Christians are aware that in the "East End many bathing establishments exist, called £ Mikvahs,' which I can only translate as ' Ritual "Baths.' The minute sanitary observances which every married woman, however poor, undergoes, is, to my mind, one reason of the extraordinary health and fecundity of the race, seldom found among other people." Then I deal with the anti-alien agitation u The agitation has, it appears to me, been conducted hy those who are only too ready to place the blame for bad conditions upon the alien, and especially the Jewish alien, and in a most unfair, and therefore un-English, manner. It has been founded on prejudice, and not on the basis of existing facts. The formation of the Anlti-Alien Immigration League, the marching with bands of music through the East End of London, and the publication of pamphlets and articles with the obvious intent to influence public passion, and not to enlighten public opinion, are part of the work of these agitators." I hope the Royal Commissioners will permit me to enter my most solemn protest against a certain mode of agitation. It is all very well to repudiate all feeling of anti-Semitism, but when you over and over again examine witnesses, and ask them, "Will there not be riot and bloodshed if something is not done?" it reminds mo of the old election cry, " Do not put him under the pump!" 16299. (Chairman.) 1 would rather you did not pursue -this. We are unwilling to shut out anything, but you are suggesting that we have been receiving evidence we should not have received ?—It is not a question of evidence. 16300. You said the Commissioners received this evidence before them, and that we were doing what the Irishman did, saying, " Do not put him under the pump" ?—It resulted in alien bloodshed, because several of these poor people had had stones thrown at them. That is my sola reason for mentioning it, and if I am wrong, I will withdraw it. 16301. We took what evidence we thought right. I do "not. think you need read that part of your state- ments which deals with the banks. I do not think that has anything to do with the enquiry. Now you come to what we want, and that is "Suggested remedies"— Yes. " Several tests have been suggested with a view- to restricting the influx of alien immigrants. Whatever is done in this respect, a very large staff would be required. Only a very few individuals would be affected, and the cost would be enormous. Any measure of restriction would be most injurious to the British shipping interests, for the German shipping com- panies would take advantage of such law by en- deavours to interpret it in a sense to the Conti- nental emigrants which would deter aliens from coming to London to take their passage' to Africa, America, and other places. It cannot, surely, be suggested that it was entirely from a humanitarian point of view that the shipping companies of Hamburg have erected a building for the accommodation of the immigrants at a cost of some £50,000. Again, any measure such as has been suggested would be taken advantage of by Con# tinental peoples like the Russians and Roumanians by the imposition of still more stringent laws against their Jewish subjects; and, further, they will say that Eng- land, the albode of freedom, was obliged to make a law to exclude these people. As a test of health, we know from experience that no sick person is found among the emigrants, even before they have to undergo the stringent medical examinations above alluded to.'7 I am speaking of experience here, and it is very, very seldom we have anybody sick in the Shelter. 16302. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What is the medical examination on the frontier?—I have a copy of the paper here, and I think it is in English as well. Every individual has to go through it, both the crew and pasr sengers. 16303. That is before sailing?—Yes. 16304. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) But on the frontier ? —'There is one on the frontier and another at the port of embarkation. 16305. (iSir Kenelm Digby.) That is at Hamburg, or Bremen, by the German Government officials?—Yes; the medical men. " A test- as to trade would be largely ineffctual, because in the majority of cases even the highly-skilled workmen who enter do not in all, or even most, cases follow their own trade; e.g., a tailor who is a- skilled practical tailor generally follows a section of the trade in this country." Then I deal -with "Passports." "A suggestion ha,s been made as to the introduction of passports in this country; i.e., that an emigrant should be provided with a passport—this solely for the purpose of .safeguarding this country from the possible entry of so-called undesirables. It is a well-known fact that those who are least entitled to be regarded as desirable persons are generally pro- vided in those countries where passports are in vogue with the most ample papers. Then again, it has been suggested that the British Consul or Vice-Oonsul should give a certificate of the fitness of an immigrant coming to this country. This would lead to innumerable inter- national complications. Is it likely the Russian Govern- ment, as the one principally concerned in this question, would sanction a foreign country's representatives granting permits to some of its most desirable inhabi- tants to emigrate ? He certainly would not dare to give a certificate without the production of an emigration passport by the intending emigrant. Now, it is a fact that the bulk of the immigrants are young men, liable to conscription, who could not, even if they would, obtain the emigration passport, apart altogether from the cost. Such a passport, would cost him at least £3. Again, the obligation to obtain a certificate from a guild of his fitness in his particular branch could not apply to the Jewish workman, because they are not allowed to form guilds of their own; neither will the existing Christian guilds in Russia permit membership of Jews. Such certifioate is therefore an impossibility." ThenMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 573 there was the question, a/bout the band with the shipping company. A shipping company bringing a passenger to this country has hitherto got 15s. It has now been raised to 24s. Is it likely they would carry one solitary passenger if they had to enter into a bond that in •a certain event they should take that passenger back ? • Naturally, they would not take any; it would not pay them." But the remedies as to undesirables are already in operation. When a person comes here'*—I am " .speaking of the shelter now—" who, through age or any - other cause, is not likely to become a useful citizen "— and I may explain here that when my friends, Mr. Leonard Cohen and Mr. Joseph, spoke of "undesir- - ableo" they had only one thing in their minds, and that is, a person who is likely to cost the community some money by way of support, and nothing else. 16306. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you speaking of knowledge of what they have in their minds P—I wish ■ you could ask them. 16307. That is another matter. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is what I understood Mr. * "Cohen to say. 16308. (Lord Rothschild.) I do not agree with you there. I think what Mr. Cohen meant by an undesirafble was a man who, whatever support he received from the ^community, would not get on here ?—That is the same thing. (Lord Rothschild.) No, I beg your pardon. Mr. Cohen - did not grudge spending the money. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He went further than that, . :a&d said sick people and people of bad character. 16309. (Chairman.) We have got it upon the note, jyr. H, and we had better not. discuss it now ?—Very well, my Landau. Lord. " But the remedies as to undesirables are already -—- in operation. When a person comes here who, through 16 Mar. 1903. age or any other cause, is not likely to become a useful citizen every endeavour is used by both the Shelter authorities and the Jewish Board of Guardians to induce him to return, and generally .witSb success. The prosperity of this country has been built up by the free interchange of commodities and useful citizens, ©very man Who is strong and intelligent, law-abiding, and hard-working, is an added strength to the country. In my opinion, the alien Jews in the East End do come under this category. It will be departing from the tradi- tions of England to decline a refuge to those persecuted in "other lands. When these persons form a valuable asset to the community, it4 will be disastrous to the ultimate welfare oif the nation at large to yield to the representations of a small and prejudiced section, rather than consult the general weal. Those countries where passport regulations and other restrictions on the movement of humanity are in force remain among the most backward, but admixture of races has built up in England, the English Colonies, and the United States the most prosperous, vigorous, and respected peoples of the world." I may say, if the news we have about Russia is true, and if there is to be religious toleration in Russia, I do not think there will be any question of immigration into this country, because' they are very reluctant to leave, and'they can get^ c^ry much better living than they can ever hope for ^ expect in this country. Then, I have prepared two cables, which I call Talble A and Table B; — TABLE A. Showing comparative amounts of total working expenses of Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, and money paid by Shipping Companies for maintenance, &c., during the last ten years. Date. Total Working Expenses. Received from Companies. • \ £. s. d. £. s. d. November 1st, 1892 to October 31st, 1893 - • - 1,301 - - 73 18 9 ?■> 1893 1894 - 1,210 9 - 166 2 2 55 1894 „ 1895 - - - 1,310 11 7 351 6 - 55 1895 „ 1896 - 1,589 14 4 742 10 5 >5 1896 „ 1897 - 1,513 1 2 1,562 1 2 Yt 1897 „ 1898 - 1,081 1 2 552 - 1 .55 1898 1899 - 1,249 6 10 747 2 1 1899 „ 1900 - - - 1,178 15 8 64 5 4 5 J 1900 „ 1901 - 1,168 15 2 1,129 3 5 1901 1902 - 1,115 12 4 257 3 9 " "it 1902 to February 28th, 1903 (estimated) - 400 - - (upwards of 2,000£.) (upwards of 2,UU0/.) Total - - - £. 13,118 7 3 7,645 13 2 574 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr: II. Landau. 16®Mar 1908; TABLE B. Date. November, 1889 to October, 1890 - „ 1890 „ 1891 - " ^ 1891 „ 1882 - „ 1892 „ 1893 - „ 1893 „ 1894 - „ 1894 „ k 1895 - „ 1895 , „ t. . 1896 - . „ 1896 „ 1897 - „ 1897 „ 1898 - - - - - 189? v „ ' " 1899 - " - - „ 189k „ 1900 - - - . ■ —-- „ 1900 „ 1901 - „ 1901 „ 1902 - Total - No. of Inmates. 1,399 2,0.21 1,548 1,951 1,874 2,236 3,450 2,811 2,060 2,694 2,847 2,350 2,270 29,511 . Stated to be en route. 380 1,101 1,251 1,716 1,542 1,838 3-017. 1,531 1,095 1,399 1,056 , 1,334 * 977 18,237 i.e., frpm November, 1889 to October, 1902, the proportion of the inmates who stated they were en route for other countries was 62 per cent. 16310. (Chairman.) With regard to these tables, I see the numbers have not increased of late years. In 1899 there were 2,800, in 1900 2,300, and in 1901 2,200. Wihat inference do you draw from that in relation to the number of immigrants who left ? Do you think that ihe number has (fallen off, or the relief has fallen off?—I think it. is normal. In 1896 there was the largest, immi- gration; 16311. 1895 P—1895 and 1896 ; but in 1900 there was. another cause for the increase. We did not feel the increase then. 16312. It was a decrease?—Yes, but they were said to be en route. There were 18,000 stated to be en route > out of 29,511. {Chairman.) We shall be unable to conclude your ' evidence .to-day, and will continue it on Thursday next. Major W. Evans-G Major W. 16313. (Chairman.) I think you have prepared a jhvans- Paper which you desire to hand in to the Commission ?— Gordon, m.p. I want to hand in a document which is a memorandum --connected with the whole history and present condition of affairs in America witih regard to immigration. 16314. Where does it come from ?—It comes from the idon, m.p., recalled^ official American document which I have from America, and which I have minuted and prepared. I think it will be of interest and value to the Commis- sion. (The Memorandum was handed in, and is as f ollows): — IMMIGRATION INTO THE UNITED STATES. The regulation of immigration by law is an old- standing practice in the United, States. It had its origin in the fact that hygienic precautions were utterly neglected in the sailing vessels which carried emigrants from Europe throughout and even after the first half of the last century and that, as a consequence, disease, especially typhus—called also " gaol " and " ship 22 fever—was imported by the immigrants. It was no uncommon circumstance for a ship to lose from 10 to 30 per cent, of her passengers by death from disease on the passage. (Report of the United States Industrial Commission, 1901, p. 450.) The first steps were taken by the New York State Legislature. It was in New York that the great ma- jority of the steerage passengers landed. Many of them remained there and developed on shore the disease with which they had been infected onboard. (Annual Report of Interments for 1847, p. 104.) An Act was passed by the New York State Legis- lature in May, 1847, which created a " Board of Com- missioners of Emigration," and provided that the master of a ship carrying immigrants to the port of New York should report to the Mayor of the City the name,., birthplace, last legal residence, age, sex, and occupation of each immigrant; whether any were lunatics, deaf, dumb, blind, infirm, maimed, or above 60 years of~age,or under 13 years of age, " Owners or consignees of ships were required to give a bond for each passenger named in the report, con- ditioned to indemnify the Commissioners of Emigration and any county, city, or town, in the State from any cost which the Commissioners or localities should incur for the relief or support of the person named in the bond, within five years of its date, and also to indemnify or refund to. the Commissioners any expense incurred for the support or medical care of the persons under their charge, if received into the Marine Hospital or any other institution under their jurisdiction ; such bond to be secured by at least two sureties in the sum of 300 dollars each. v- It was lawful for the owner or consignee of a vessel at any time -mthin twenty-four hours after the landing of all but prohibited passengers to commute for the bonds so requix ^d by paying to the Health CommissionerMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 575 -of . New York City, one dollar (afterwards placed at as ftigh a figure as 2.50 dollars, and lowered or raised .as circumstances demanded) for each passenger re- ported by him, and this was deemed a sufficient discharge from the requirement of giving bonds. Fifty cents of the amount commuted was set aside -as a separate fund for the benefit of each locality in the State, except New York county ; the balance to be used for general purposes by the Commissioners of Emigration. The Commissioners and their agents were authorised to board vessels for the purpose of -examining into the condition of immigrants and report to the Mayor those who were liable to become a public -charge (Sixteenth Eeport, Bureau of Immigration, pp. 971, 972). The conditions of the immigration traffic at this time may be inferred from the inscription on a monument -of rough granite in an old burying ground near Montreal: —"To preserve from desecration the remains of 6,000 immigrants who died of ship fever, A.D. 1847-1848." - (Stafford, " Immigration as a business," p. 7.) . In 1856 an immigrant landing station was opened -at Castle Garden on Manhattan Island. In 1858 the ^Commissioners removed their offices to the same place. In 1853 Asiatic cholera broke out in immigrant vessels, and led to demands for United States legislation to remedy such causes as could "be traced to any estate of things on shipboard, such as defective ventilation, bad or insufficient food, or too large a number of pas- sengers. crowded together.'' Such legislation was enacted in 1855 providing for a limitation of passengers carried, by the tonnage -■of: the vessel—one passenger being allowed for every two tons—providing for space, for ventilation, for rotated supplies of food and water to passengers, for "-cleanliness, and for inspection at the ports to see if all -conditions were complied with. (Eeport of Industrial ■Commission, 1901, p. 451.) As early as 1819 an enactment had been passed, "limiting the number of passengers that a ship might r^carry to two for every five tons of the custom-house tonnage, and requiring that certain rations of food and water should be provided ; but these regulations only ^-applied to vessels on the voyage to Europe. (Stafford, ^' Immigration as a Business," p. 7.) !. The Act of 1855 proved effectual. By 1858 the sani- tary condition of the immigrants had greatly improved, - ^nd in 1864 it could be said that the diseases engenderd, Iby "confined air, filthy habits, bad fare, and long -voyages," which at one period filled the hospitals with the sick and dying, had been so reduced as no longer to be a source of serious apprehension." (Eeport «of Industrial Commission, 1901, p. 451.) ' Further Federal legislation followed. In 1875 the .mportation of prostitutes was forbidden. Persons infringing the law were to be deemed guilty of a felony, ;and might be imprisoned for not more than five years, or - sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding 5,000 dollars. By the same enactment the following classes were prohibited from entry into the United States:— Persons undergoing a sentence for conviction in their own country of felonious crimes other than political, M-p allowed to leave the ship till the inspection had ^een 16 Mar 1903 made and the result certified. If an immigrant raised__!— an objection to the inspecting officer's decision, the vessel was detained till the matter was heard and deter- mined. " And for all violations of this Act, the vessel, by the acts, commissions, or connivance of the owners, master, or other custodian, or the consignees of which the same are committed, shall be liable to forfeiture and may be proceeded against as in cases of frauds against the revenue laws, for which forfeiture is prescribed by existing law." (Immigration Laws and Eegulations, Treasury Department, Washington, 1902, pp. 13, 14.) In 1882 an important enactment was made. | By the first section the " Immigrant Fund " was created. A duty of 50 cents was to be paid " for each and every passenger not a citizen of the United States who shall come by steam or sail vessel from a foreign port to any port within the United States." The money was to be paid by the master, owner, agent, or consignee of the vessel within 24 hours of its entry, and was to be applied " to defray the expense of regulating immigration under this Act, and for the care of immi- grants arriving in the United States, for the relief of such as are in distress, and for the general purposes and expenses of carrying this Act into effect. The duty imposed by this section shall be a lien upon the vessels which shall bring such passengers into the United States." Section 2 assigns to the Secretary of the Treasury the duty of enforcing the Act, and the power of entering into contracts for the purposes of it. Provision is made for the boarding and inspecting of vessels, and if there be found among the passengers "any convict, lunatic, idiot, or any person unable to take care of himself or herself without becoming a public charge," the in- specting authority is to report, and such person is not to land. Section 3 empowers the Secretary of the Treasury to issue such instructions " as he shall deem best calculated to protect the United States and immigrants into the United States from fraud and loss," and to prescribe the form of all papers used under the Act. Section 4 provides for the deportation of foreign con- victs " to the nations to which they belong," and throws the expense of the return on " the owners of the vessel " in which the person to be deported came to America.^ This legislation was followed by the Act of 1885. The first section prohibits the immigration of any alien who has entered into a contract made previous to landing in the United States to " perform labour or service of any kind" there, and makes it unlawful to assist or encourage such immigration. Section 2 renders contracts of the pronibited kind invalid. Section 3 prescribes a fine of 1,000 dollars for infrac- tion of the law in this particular. Proceeds to be paid into the Treasury. Separate suits may be brought for each foreigner being a party to a prohibited contract. It is made the duty of the district attorney of the district concerned to prosecute at the expense of the United States. Section 4 prescribes a fine not exceeding 500 dollars, to which imprisonment for not more than six months * In explanation of the importance of this addendum, I mention the accusation made against Mendel and Dora Piernick, and reported in " The Times," of January 24th, 1903.—Mendel Piernick, 33, and Dora, 28, his wife, were charged ihefore Mr. Kennedy, with conspiring to procure Merjem Lie Giek, a young Polish woman, for improper purposes during the past three months at a house in Fitzroy Court, Fitzroy Square. The male prisoner was further charged with living upon the earnings of the girl. Mr. Q. H. Young, solicitor, prosecuted; Mr. Barringfcon Matthews, solicitor, appeared for the defence ; and Mr. Woolf Levy interpreted in Yiddish. Mr. Young, in opening the proceedings, said thai the prisoners . ^and the girl Giek, who was 24 years of age, were Poles, and were acquainted with each other in their native country. The prisoners came to England from Lodz, Polaisd, and invited the girl to follow them to this country. She did so, arriving . rat St. Katharine's Docks on November 7th. The prisoners met her there, and when an agent of a society for the protec- tion of Jewish women spoke to the girl the male prisoner told him she was a friend of his, and was going to stay with him - iand his wife. The prisoners took her to a house in Fitzroy Courb. It was then suggested by the female defendant that i -she should lead an improper life. The girl, who could not speak English, began to cry, and declined to do as she was told. Eventually, however, the woman took her to Tottenham Court Eoad, where she commenced the life, and had since -continued it. The woman used to take the money she got and hand it over to Mendel. Sometimes complaint was made iihat the girl did not earn sufficient money. Inspector Soper, D. Division, deposed that almost daily observation showed that the male prisoner did no work, although the establishment in Fitzroy Court was ostensibly a bootmaker's. As soon . ras lie ^egan to occupy the place it was used for other purposes, and was " registered" as such by the police. Evidence as called bearing out Mr. Young's statement. Mr. Barrington Matthews said there was nothing in the evidence to ^support the second charge that was made against the male prisoner. Mr. Kennedy committed the prisoners, who reserved - €heir defence, for trial.576 ROYAL COMMISSION- ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION . 'Major W. may be added, for any master of a vessel who knowingly Evans- brings in workers who are parties to prohibited contracts. Gordon, m.p. Section 5 allows foreigners to bring in private secre- 16 Mar. 1903. tarips anc^ servants, and sanctions the importation of __.— ' such skilled labour as is needed " in or upon any new industry not at present established in the United States," provided this labour " cannot be otherwise obtained." Lecturers, actors, and some other persons are exempted from exclusion. An Amendatory Act was passed in 1887. This gave power to certain authorities to board and inspect vessels in search of persons infringing the contract law, to the Secretary of the Treasury to make regulations, and to provide for the deportation of ex- ' eluded persons to the country whence they came at the expense of the vessel which brought them. A further amendment was enacted in 1888. This authorised the Secretary of the Treasury, " in case that lie shall be satisfied that an immigrant has been allowed So land contrary to the prohibition of the Contract- labour Law, to cause such immigrant, within one year after entry, to be taken into custody and returned to the country from whence he came." Legislation of a much more stringent kind was adopted in 1891. The Act of this date added to the classes already ex- cluded all persons " likely to become a public charge, persons suffering from a loathsome or a contagious disease, persons who have been convicted of a felony or other infamous crime or misdemeanor involving moral turpitude, polygamists, and also any person whose ticket is paid for with the money of another, or who is assisted by others to come." Political offenders are exempted. Section "2 strengthens the law of 1885, and Section 3 prohibits the encouragement of immigration by promises of employments made in advertisements published abroad, and provides that any alien coming to the United States "in consequence of such an advertisement, shall be treated as coming under a contract "of the prohibited kind. Section 4 forbids steamship and transportation com- panies and their agents to encourage or solicit immigra- . tion otherwise than by ordinary commercial letters, circulars, advertisements, or oral representations. Penalties as under Section 3 of the Act of 1885. Section 5 exempts certain persons (ministers of any religious, donomination, professors, professional men, and a few others) from the operation of the Act of 1885, ar^d extends its operation to certain persons previously exempted (assisted relatives and personal friends of residents in the States). Under Section 6 anyone bringing in or aiding in the importation of a prohibited alien was to be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour, and was made liable to a fine not exceeding 1,000 dollars, or to imprisonment for not more than a year, or to both fine and imprisonment. Section 7 appointed a Superintendent of Immigration, and provided for his staff. Section 8 is of so much importance in the history of the control of immigration that it is necessary to quote por- tions of it in extenso. It provides " that upon the arrival by water at any place within the United States of any alien immigrants, it shall be the duty of the commanding officer and the agents of the steam or sailing vessel by which they came to report the name, nationality, last residence, and destination of every such alien, before any of them are landed, to the proper inspection officers, who shall thereupon go or send competent assistants on board such vessel and there inspect all such aliens, or the the inspection officers may order a temporary removal of such aliens for examination at a designated time and place, and then and there detain them until a thorough inspection is made. But such a removal shall not be considered a landing during the pendency of such examination, The medical examination shall be made by surgeons of the Marine Hospital Service. In cases where the services of a marine hospital surgeon cannot be obtained without causing unreasonable delay, the inspector may cause an alien to be examined by a civil surgeon, and the Secretary of the Treasury shall fix the compensation for such examination. The inspection officers and their assistants shall have power to ad- minister oaths, and to take and consider testimony touching the right of such aliens to enter the United States. All decisions made by the Inspection Officers or their assistants touching the right of any alien to land, when adverse to such right, shall be final unless appeal be taken to the Superintendent of Immigration, , whose action shall be subject to review by the Secretary - of the Treasury. " It shall be the duty of the aforesaid officers and agents of such vessel to adopt due precautions to prevent- the landing of any alien immigrant at any place or time other than that designated by the inspection of officers,,. and any such officer or agent or person in charge of such vessel who shall either knowingly or negligently land..... or permit to land any alien immigrant at any place or time other than that designated by the inspection, officers, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine not exceeding 1,000 dollars, or by~ imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment." Section 9 gives officers of the law access to immigrant stations. These stations are under Federal control, but for the purposes of this section Municipal and State Courts have jurisdiction over them. Section 10 provides for the immediate deportation^ of excluded aliens in the vessel which brought them; the cost of maintenance on land, as well as the expense of the - return journey to be borne by the ship. Contumacy of master, agent, consignees, or owner is punishable by a fine of not less than 300 dollars for every effence, and constitutes a misdemeanour. No vessel to have - clearance from any United States port till fines under this Section are paid. Under Section 11, any alien who enters the United States unlawfully may be deported within a year at the - expense of the persons who brought him ; alternatively, at the expense of the United States. Any alien who becomes a public charge within a year is to be deemed to have entered unlawfully. The law was again strengthened in 1893. Details were now given of the information to be required from immi- grants. Section 1 provides that " in addition to con- forming to all present requirements of law, upon the arrival of any alien immigrants by water at any port within the United States, it shall be the duty of the master or commanding officer of the vessel to deliver to the proper Inspector of Immigration lists or manifests made at the time and place of embarkation of such alien immigrants on board such vessel, which shall,, in answer, to questions at the top of such lists, state as to each immigrant the full name, age, and sex, whether married or single, the calling or occupation ; whether able to read or write ; the seaport for landing in the United States; whether having a through ticket; whether the immigrant has paid his own passage ; whether in possession of money, and if so, whether upwards of 30 dollars; and how much, if 30 dollars, or less; whether going to join a relative, and if so, what relative and his name and address; whether ever before in the United States, and if so, when and where ; whether ever in prison or almshouse or sup- ported by charity; whether a polygamist; whether under contract to perform labour ; and what is the immigrant's condition of health mentally, physically, , and whether deformed or crippled, and if so, from what cause. Section 2 provides that the immigrants are to be listed in convenient groups, and that no one manifest is to contain more than 30 names. To each immigrant shall be given a ticket on which shall be written his name, a number or letter designating the list, and his number on the list, for convenience of identification on arrival. Each list or manifest shall be verified by the signature and the oath of affirmation of the master or commanding officer, or of the officer first or second below him in command, taken before the United States consul or consular agent at the port of departure, before the sailing of the vessel, to the effect that he has made a personal examination of each and all of the passengers named therein, and that he has caused the surgeon of the vessel sailing therewith to make a physical examination of each passenger, and that from his personal inspection and the report of the surgeon he believes that he has no immigrant of a prohibited class on board, and that the information in the manifest is true. Section 3 provides that the ship's surgeon is also to sign the lists before the departure of the vessel, and vis to make oath or affirmation before the consul or consular agent stating his qualifications and that he has made a personal examination of each passenger, and that the lists give true information to the best of his knowledge and belief. Tf no surgeon sails with the ship, the ownersMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 577 ^are to employ a competent surgeon for the examinations and the verifications of the manifests. Under Section 4 failure of the master to comply, in the case of any admissible alien, involves a fine of 10 dollars for each case ; if this is not paid, the immigrant is excluded. Section 5 deals with special inquiries and appeals, and provides that no inspector is to pass any person who does not appear to him to be clearly and beyond •doubt entitled to admission, and that " no immigrant Shall be admitted on special inquiry except after a favour- able decision made by at least three " of the inspectors forming the court. 'Section 6 giv'es the Secretary of the Treasury additional powers for the appointment of examining surgeons. . Section 7 enacts that "no bond or guaranty, written of the Italian women who work in tenement houses, jg Mar. 1903. (P. xxvi.) - Certain states of the union enforce drastic legislation with regard to "home work." As regards the administrative details of this legislation, it is noticeable that in those States most directly affected by immigration, namely, New York, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania, the legislation has been most radical, and even despotic. In the first place, a register is required to be kept by the contractor or manufacturer of all home workers in his employment. This register, unfortunately, is not treated as a public record, and hence does not afford opportunity for trade unions, consumers' leagues, and charity societies to carry on effective agitation which will reach the manufacturers. But the despotic feature of the legislation appears in the provisions requiring a license or permit in order to work at home. In the enforcement of ordinary factory and workshop laws, the factory inspector is required to come into court and prove the alleged violation of the law. The defendant enjoys the benefit of the doubt, and the inspector and prosecuting attorney are held to a strict interpretation of the statute. By the license feature, however, the inspector is not dependent upon the courts ; his action is summary and decisive ; he grants or revokes the license upon his own discretion and judgment, and the penalty thus imposed, since it deprives the workman of his entire living, is far heavier than the imposition of a fine by the court. The inspector under this provision of the law calls upon the court not to punish the material violation of the law, but to punish the workman who works without a license. Both the prosecution and the punishment of the offender are, therefore, practically in the hands of the administra- tive officer without recourse to the court. There remains, indeed, the judicial remedy by mandamus or injunction, but in the case of the poverty-stricken workers of the tenement house this is not a substantial remedy. Massachusetts was the first State to introduce the license feature as a part of its factory legislation. In New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Indiana, and Michigan within the last two or three years have fol- lowed the example of Massachusetts. In Pennsylvania the law goes much farther than in any other State, and requires a license not only for tenement house work, but for any " building or parts of a building " where wearing apparel is manufactured, and in New York it applies to any building in the rear of a tenement building. (P. xxx.). The Jew occupies a unique position in the clothing trade. His physical strength does not fit him for manual labour ; his instincts lead him to speculation and trade ; his individualism tmsuits him for the life of a wage earner, and especially for the discipline of labour organisations. For these reasons when a Jew first lands in America he enters such light occupations as sewing, cigar making and shoemaking. Jewish women are employed to a much less extent than women of other nationalities, and their children are kept at school until fifteen or sixteen years of age. The Jews' conception of a labour organisation is that of a trades- man rather than that of a workman. Whenever a real abuse arises among the Jewish workmen, they all come together to form a giant union and at once engage in a strike. They bring in 95 per cent, of the trade. They hold out a long time, even under the greatest suffering. They usually win their case, but when once a strike is settled, they are contented, and that usually ends the union, since they do not see any practical use for organisation where there is no cause to fight for; consequently the membership of the Jewish union is wholly uncertain. The Jew is also exceedingly abstract and metaphysical and greatly interested in general principles ; for this reason the socialistic element acquires control and the practical problems and serious conditions of the trade are neglected. (P. xxv.). From pp. 22 and 23 of the Report of the Commissioner General of Immigration (June, 1902), it appears that of the Hebrews who entered the United States during the period with which the Report deals, 6,110 described themselves as tailors, 1,704 as seamstresses and dress makers, 1,285 as shoemakers, 808 as painters and glaziers, 4 D 2580 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I 51-7 as tinmen, 2,246. as " merchant dealers or grocers," , teows* ■: ? 5. f a3 personal • and domestic servants, 2,018 as ^'don)carpenters and joiners, 5,316 as labourers, 549 as clerks 6 Mar. 1903. anc^ accountants, and 279 as " professional" (actors, ---editors, engineers, lawyers, etc.). These figures pro- bably explain the following extract from the Report of the United Hebrew Charities for the year ending Sep- tember 30th, 1901, p. 18) :—" More than once has the remark been made by our co-religionists engaged in commercial pursuits that they would not give money to be used for the relief of th$ Russian Jews, because they had become competitors, who by intense competi- tion had driven them out of business, or at least materi- ally reduced their profits." - The American Jews themselves are not desirous of " seein g; the immigration of their co-religionists freed from restriction. " American Jews have always dis- couraged immigration of European Jews, and are in full accord with the laws to prevent the immigration of? paupers and diseased persons and all who are unfitted to enjoy the franchise." (Report of Industrial Commis- sion, p. xv.) .The view taken by the Jewish community in the United States is easily explicable. The following extracts from the 27th Annual Report of the United Hebrew Charities, dated October, 1901, were read before the Senate Committee:—" No matter how earnestly we labour to care for the Jewish poor, already in our city, our burdens are being con- stantly increased by the thousands who come from Europe every year, to settle in our midst. It is worth noting in passing, that, comparatively speaking, few of these newly-arrived emigrants come to us for assistance until after they have been in New York for a year or two. Either they have sufficient means of their own to bring them to America and to support them for a period after arrival or they have been sent for by relatives who are able to give them assistance for some time. But the evil conditions of the houses and the deteriorating influences of the sweat shops of the great ghetto, soon work havoc among these people, and after an interval of two or three years they come to us in numbers for relief. .... " Furthermore, in line with our belief that an ounce of: prevention is worth a pound of cure, and that as law- abiding citizens of our country, we should not run against public sentiment, nor pose as violators of the law, we have come to an understanding with the London Jewish Board of Guardians whereby the unwise shipment of Jewish immigrants who are not adapted to con^ ditions of life in this country, will be stopped. Hitherto we have had to bear the burden which should properly have been borne by our British co-religionists. They, were perfectly willing to furnish free transportation to those persons who were unable to make a living iii England, but who believed, if they could only reach the shores of America (which means New York to all Jewish immigrants) their troubles would be at an end." .... This, of course, amounts to an agreement to relegate all indigent and wTandering Jews who cannot or will not stop on the Continent, to a permanent domicile im' the United Kingdom. It may be added that tile United States' special Immigrant Inspector a#'''Montreal' was- told by a member of the Baron de Hirsch Society that they " had sent word to Europe not to send themt (destitute Jews) this way. The Roumanian Jews,, who came over two years ago, many of thern, are Still in Canada a burden on that society ; and' only at their last meeting, as many as 92 destitute Jews, who* have been destitute since the 1st of January in Montreal, were at that meeting of the Society to receive their alms and support, being unable to care for themsel:yes.,> I append a few further extracts from the Twenty seventh Report of the United Hebrew Charities:— " A condition of chronic poverty is developing in the* Jewish community of New York that is appalling in its- immensity. Forty-five per cent, of our applicants/ representing between 20,000 and 25,000 human beings* have been in the United States over five years ; have-: been given the opportunities for economic and industrial improvement which this country affords, yet, notwith- standing all this, have not managed to reach a position of economic independence. Two thousand five hundred, §,nd eighty-five of the new applicants, representing; 7 per cent, of the Jewish immigration to the United States during the year, found it necessary to apply at the- office of the United Hebrew Charities within a short time after arrival. It must be remembered, further more, that the United Hebrew Charities do, not repre- sent the entire JewTish poverty and dependence that exists in New York City. Frequently our relief bureau is" the place to which the applicant comes only after exhausting every other possible means of securing; existence. When the numerous small relief societies,, synagogues, individuals, and others can no longer contribute, then, and only then in many cases is the- co-operation of the United Hebrew Charities sought-, If, besides the 50,000 people who applied at the United Hebrew Charities, we were to include in the dependent classes all who needed the services of dispensaries^, hospitals, asylums, and institutions of all kinds, or who* were assisted by charitable effort other than that given by us, the statement can safely be made that during: the year from 75,000 to 100,000 members of the N&w York Jewish community are unable to supply them- selves with the immediate necessaries of life." In the Report of the same Society for 1898 the follow- ing passages occur :—" Those who are familiar with the- crowded section on the lower east side know that vices* are beginning to spring up which heretofore have been 'strangers to the Jewish people." In the Report for 1901 this observation is confirmed, and made more- explicit (p. 30) ;—"The horrible congestion in which so many of our co-religionists live, the squalor and filth the lack of air and sunlight, the absence, frequently^ of even the most common decencies, are too well known to require repetition at this writing. Even more pro- nounced are the results accruing from these conditions ~ the vice and, crime, the irreligiousness, lack of self restraint, indifference to social conventions, indulgence- in the most degraded and perverted appetites are growing; daily more pronounced, and more offensive. " THIRTY-SEVENTH DAY. Thursday, Idth March 1908. present : The Rt, Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). . . ; TheRt. Hon. Lord Rothschild. v i. • | Sir "Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. ; j Mar. 1903. « We have received ;a report to the ---- Board 'of Trade' from the officer employed in London who deals with) ?the. steamers arriving from - Hamburg. He says he is - informed by =the captains of the • Hamburg steamers that, in anticipation of a large increase during the year of Russian and Austrian immigrants, Mr. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. William Yallance, Esq. Kurston, the owner of the line, inte^ > to increase the boat accommodation of his steamers, iii order that lie may be allowed to carry more passengers per steamer. Then some figures have been placed before the Commission officially by the Home Secretary. First, there are the numbers of foreign prisoners whoMINUTES ■ OF EVIDENCE. 582 ~ &r e now? in ' custody or were ■ m custody on criminal charges on the 2nd March, 1903. • I think these figures ?h'ave-feeetl handed in. as a Parliamentary Paper, and ihave been published. On the 2nd March, 1903, there were; in custody 625, 'and what is important is to note itheir nationalities. ., Of those; 625, 175 were German, ,149. JJussiaais and Poles, 29 Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes, 54 French, 44 Italians, 8 Dutch, and 166 of various nationalities, making in the whole 625. Those 625 were alien criminals, the total of criminals in custody On that date amounting to 19,579. Then Mr. Haden Gorser, the magistrate of Worship Street, has forwarded certain particulars of the charges made in his court, comparing the two years of 1897 and 1902. Between those years the aliens charged had increased from, 775 to 1,279, or an increase of 504. It is to be- noticed that the increase is almost entirely under .two heads. The obstruction in streets had increased from 45 in 1897- to 414 in 1902, an increase of 365 ; ..the wages cases had increased from 190 to 295, an in- crease of 105. With regard to the graver criminal charges there has not been much increase. Assaults, 19 Mar. 1903. including' a few - cases of wounding, have increased —-—- from 193 to 227. Then offences against property have increased from 101 to 110. Then betting and gambling cases have decreased from 77 to 49. Then Mr. Corser adds this note: "It is right to add, by . way of explanation, that, so far as cases of ob- struction are concerned, one or two Englishmen only were before the court in either of the two years. Similarly, in wages cases the number of Englishmen js infinitesimal. In School Board cases, where there were-1,765 persons summoned in 1902, only 28 were aliens; and in 1897 16 only were summoned out of about 1,500 cases. The cases of drunkenness and disorderly conduct on the part of the aliens were 75 in 1897 and 67 in 1902. These are so small in pro- portion to the other persons charged that the smallest tract'on per cent, would be sufficient to represent it. Is tat el 1 per cent, in giving evidence as to these charges of drunkenness, but it is nothing approach- ing that figure." Mr. Hermann Landau, re-called: and Examined. (Witness.) My Lord, I am extremely sorry if I made myself misunderstood when giving evidence the other cj^y. What I meant to say was simply, from the way $wne_ of the witnesses gave their evidence, it would Certainly lead to breaches of the peace in the East End, and I am sure your Lordship will regard it in the same light as you did when I brought under your notice the pamphlets that had been distributed broadcast in the East End. (Chairman.) I do not think we need refer to that iiatter any more, but we will proceed with your evidence. 16315. (Major Evans Gordon.) Have you got the re- turns of the people who passed through your shelter in 1902?—I think so. -16316, You have not given us*those*, have, you?—I ; think we have. Our, report for the year will be pub- lished in about a week or two. 16317. You have not got the figures for 1902 ?-^I h^Ye.here a proof of the report, which gives the details. 16318. I only want the total' that has through ?—2,270. 16319. Those include all that have passed through the shelter %—Those that the shelter cared for in a way;; Of course, there are a great many more, but they aote simply taken to their destination. 16320. Those have been absolutely through your hands?—Yes. ' j 16321. You say, on page 2 of your statement, that 95 per cent, of the total number of alien immigrants arriving at the port of London passed through the - shelter ?—-I cannot say exactly they passed through the r, shelter an , the, jseaise ^ in which; I have just told you ; the 2,000 and odd have gone through, because we only give the others the assistance of taking them to their respective addresses. Tl^e shelter does not care for them. They do notr top there ; that is what I'mean— the bulk of them do not-—whereas those we are speaking M\ inoourv report are people we take charge ;of, and who stop there. 16322. (Chairman.) Haveypu cognisance of them as they pass through.?—Oh, yes, we have. ' 16323. (Major Evans Gordon.) You merely take some =6f 'them to their: destinations ?—Yes. If I may be per- it itted to say so, before that they were taken to their .vdastinatlo-ns by scrimps; a,nd robVed en route,- or taken ; t£^the wrong -places,; and* that vis Mm reason why the shelter- authorities have undertaken < that mission. ; 16324. But' those people who are met 'by relatives .and friends go on their own hook?—Yes. - 16325. Then you say . 27,000 persons passel through the shelter in 13 yea^s, or, say, between 1891 and 1903 ?—Yes. ' • .16326. But between, the years 1891 and 1901 I find from" 'the. Board . of Trade returns that there were 119,139' Russians* and Poles, and a few Roumanians, who were only specified: fpr two years, who' arrived in the^ port Of London. So that, out of 119,130, only ^27f#0tepasse& through the shelter ?—I have already -ex^&ined that the- pas'si^g 'through the- shelter of those imentjoried; in our^ reports are people for whom we wl havevhe^e^^the' register which contains the very people.' that you mention; the 119,000 odd. They are all* entered there.- We take their names and addresses. 16327. (Chairman.) What do your figures ccme to in that time?—We did not take particular notice, except Mr. HI during the last one or two years ; we have the figures, Landau which I should be very glad to furnish you with. -- 16328. (Major Evans Gordon.) My point is this— that of the; people you have really come in close con- tact with, that is in the shelter, there are only 27,000 out of 119,139?—Quite so. 16329. So that it is not correct to say that 95 per .cent, of ,the total number of these immigrants arriving; , in the port , of London passed through the shelter, im the sense that they -merely go to their destinations?— We have cognisance of them here.- Here is our register. (Chairman.) That is a very different thing to passing:; through. 163?0. (Major Evans Gordon.) You have their name£- and addresses?—Yes. 16331. That sentence would give a wrong impression, I thrnk, as to passing through the shelter. Passing;; through the shelter I take to be. staying in the shelter, perhaps, a day or two, .or perhaps four days, and the- other is merely transporting them to their addresses T —But we take the particulars of each individual, and' here is the register. 16332. (Lord Rothschild.) What you mean is a great many pass through your shelter who were not virtually accommodated there ?■—Yes. 16333. (Chairman.) They were, not passing through at all in one sense. The 27,000 in every sense passed through ?—Yes. 16334. (Major Evans Gordon.) 22*6 of the total arrivals really passed through, the shelter in that sense f —Yf*i. " - ■ ' ; 163351 Then you say : ■" Eew, if any, of the immi- grants are •actually destitute ; fully 60 per cent, are" skilled workmen," How, is that ascertained ?—Here • .is the register,> and it is open to you - 16336. I do not want to see the register; I only want to know how you ascertain whether they are skilled workmen or not ?—Because those all come here ? they are all under- our immediate eye until work, but not -necessarily-in the; particular ' calling, as I said be- fore, . is found by them. A- man may be an accom - plished tailor m Ms-, own country—that is to say; he may be able .to make a garment from the beginning to the: end, and fit it,- and« everything else—but'when ,he; arrives here .at first he is not in a position to get . work, and .does,not always-succeed in getting work in that particular trade. 16337. How do you find out whether he is a skilled workman or not—from their own statement, or do you put them to any test of working?—We cannot absolutely test the skill that each workman possesses.. We can only describe his calling. 16338. He says he is a tailor, and you sav he is a tailor, and he says, " I am a shoemaker," and you call hiiii a shoemaker ?—Yes.' 16339. (Chairman,) You take that information from the man's own statement ?—Naturally. 161340. (Major Evans Gordon.) %hose accurate de- tails, as'.far asT you are able to get the in accurately, onlyv! apply to the 27,000 that passed through your hands?—Yes. 16341. And of the balance of the 119.000, do vou know anything about their qualifications as skilled582 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALLEN IMAUGIU1ION . Mr. H. Landav. 19 Mar. 1903. workmen?—No more than I do about these others; f hj,4„ is to say, with regard to their particular skill. I cannot examine them. 16342. (Chairman.) I understand that the particulars of their being workmen more or less skilled apply equally to those who actually pass through, and to those of which the shelter have cognisance?—That is so, my Lord. 16343. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would you not have more opportunity of finding out the skill and work of a man, who was with you for six days than from a man who is merely escorted to his destination?1—Oh, dear, no. I cannot put them to any test. There are no work- shops in the shelter. 16344. A little further on you say : " The immigrants are almost without exception healthy and strong. They have to go through two medical examinations—one at the Russo-German frontier and the other at the German port of embarkation." The one-at the Russo- German frontier does not apply to the numerous class who smuggle themselves through Kalisch and those places. There is mo examination there ?—>1 think you have gone on the frontier from the Russian side up to a certain point; but the moment they are in Germany, to a certain extent, they are free, but they have to sub- mit to this examination. 16345. When they get to the port ?—-No, when they get on to German territory. I assure you it is so ; am, in fact, as you are aware, they are not allowed to remain very long oil the frontier. They must have enough money to go right through on the railway. 16346. They get across, and then they get into trains at various places all along the line, and then they make their way to Hamburg, or Bremen?—Yes. 16347. But if they were going across by the regular route there, there is a depot ?—That is right. 16348. There is also at Brody and other places a depot, but those that go between are on the frontier ?— I do not dispute that. 16349- (Chairman.) Never mind the smuggling. I w&Jit to know the practice. Would a Russian emi- grant, coming from Russia to Germany, be stopped at the German frontier and be examined as to health?— Yes. 16350. And if he went to ordinary ports he would be 'Seiit 'back ?—If he went to ordinary ports he would. . 16351. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Then large numbers •go the other way. At the port of embarkation the .officers of health of the port go on board ships such as the Kurston line?1—Yes. 16352. And they .see that the' requirements of the 'German law are fulfilled with regard to accommoda- tion and so on, and the passengers are examined to see that they have not got any oontaigious disease?—Yes. 16353. But a man coming over to England in that way is not subjected to any close examination as to his health with regard to consumption and so forth, is lie ?—1 think I ought to explain that up to the year .1895 (and I think Sir Kenelm Digby will be able to support me in this) the vessels of the German, shipping companies—that is to say, the companies carrying passengers to England from Hamburg or Bremen, or any other German port, were not regarded as sea-going vessels, and the passengers were no more taken cognis- aiitce of tlian they would have been if they had gone by train from Hamburg to Berlin, or vice versa. But when the cholera broke out in Hamburg I ventured to write to the " Times" a very strong letter on the sub- ject, because the ships arriving there had been in •such a filthy staite that it was actually very dangerous, ;and it was only since then; that remonstrances, I under- stand, have been addressed to the German Govern- ment, and the vessels leaving German ports for Eng- land are now_ regarded as sea-going vessels, and have to comply with the emigrant laws. 16354. (Major Evans-^Gordon.) I have seen the ships and seen them inspected, but there is no close inspec- tion in the sense of the man's physical fitness. They see that the ship is clean and there is no infectious disease on board, and then the ship is given pratique and allowed to go?—That is so. 16355. (Chairman.) What is the nature of the inspec- tion? Is it an inspection of each individual, or only general ais to whether there is disease on board ?—That is so ; but the German Government inspect the ships coming to ^England now, in the same way as, I under- stand, they do the ships going to America. 16356. (Chairman.) What is the nature of the in- spection ; is it an inspection of each individual, or m it only general as to disease on board ?—That is so. 16357. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say they inspect ships coming to England in the same way as they do ships going to America'?—Yes; that is to say, the passengers are regarded as sea-going passengers. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But there is a very material difference in the treatment of the passengers going to America and the passengers going to England, for this reason—that all the passengers going to America are assembled in the depot, and they are there examined and their clothes disinfected, and everything done that- is possible for them ; but those who go to England are subject to no such treatment as that at all. They go on board the ship, and when the ship is about to sail the medical officer of health of the port visits the ship. He sees there is no infectious disease on board ; he sees that the requirements of the German law as regards accommodation, doctors, food, etc., are complied with, and then they are allowed to go. 16358. (Chairman.) What do you say to that, because that is exactly contrary to your evidence?—-Major Evans-Gordon does not disagree with me, except as to the mode of examination; he admits the examination, but he does not admit the mode of examination. 16359. The amount and quantum of the examination is so different, according to you and him ?—I am not in a position to contradict him. 16360. {Major Evans-Gordon.) It is so, but it does not matter?—The superintendent of the shelter points out that every individual is examined in Hamburg before proceeding, but it is sufficient to say that we have had no sickness at the shelter for the last four years—no case at all. 16361. Do you know what happens at Libau?—I think you are in a better position to speak as to that than I am. What I know I have only heard from the immigrants themselves. 16362. Of course, the medical examination as con- ducted at Libau is of a very, very sketchy character indeed ?—I should not be at all surprised. 16363. They do not take much notice. They have improved lately, since action taken by this Commis- sion, but they are very sketchy about the medical examination, though they are very strict about the passports ?—Yes. 16364. (Sir Kenelm Dighy.) What is the object of the examination at Libau ; is it for the protection of the passengers on the ship ? (IMkzjor Evans-Gordon-) The medical examination really hardly exists. Vhey let them come in the most disgraceful state from there at one time, but now it is improved. (Chairman.) Have you any theory that explains how it is that, according to this gentleman's evidence, they have no case of sickness at the shelter? 16365. (Major Evans Gordon.) I will come to that now. With regard to that point about the bill of health at the shelter, you say there has not been a single case of sickness for a number of years?_Four years, and only one case during the last six years. 16366. And the doctor has not been inside the shelter hardly ?—I do not think so. 16367. How do you reconcile that with Mr. Joseph's statement that they come in a very weak land emaciated and wretched condition, and there is the high mor- tality among children which he described to us ?—You have seen Mr. Joseph ; he is a very clever gentleman, no doubt; but I must confess I was surprised at his evidence, because here is a report signed by Mr. Joseph himself. This is the report of 1903. (Producinq report.) 16368. Do you want me to read this ?—I should like you to, because I know you are very impartial. 16369. There is nothing that I can see in this re- port about the question of health. There is a conflict between Mr. Joseph's very remarkable statement as to the condition in which these people are and your states ment, which is that you have not had one sick person in the shelter for four years ?—I can only say, as far as my evidence is concerned, I do not wish to impute any- thing, but I wish to heaven that all the witnesses hereMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 583 had been put on their oath, because I am prepared ab- solutely to take the consequences of my statement by declaring that among the inmates of the shelter during the last six years there was only one case of sickness. 16370. (Chairman.) Would sickness and emaciation, according to your view, amount to illness ?—I tnink it would. If the man was so emaciated and so weak that he could not do a proper day's work, I would regard his case as one of sickness. 16371. (Major Evans Gordon.) Is it not possible that these people who pass through Mr. Joseph's hands are quite other than those two sets of persons; that is to say, that they belong to the balance between the 27,000 and the 119,000? There is a large number that you only take to their homes, and, therefore, you would not know anything about their condition of health. You know those who pass through your shelter, naturally, but the othersi you know very little about. The two statements are quite compatible, really?—Mr. Joseph is a very good man, and an excellent man, and a very old worker in the community, but he is old, and, there- fore, I Would prefer, if you really wish to have evidence on the subject, to ask the administrator, or ask Mr. Stephany, who comes in contact with these people ab- solutely, and who would tell you the fact. My own experience of the Russo-Jewish cases is that they are superior oases.—that they are men who do not come on the ordinary charity ; they are men who have been directly persecuted, and Mr. Joseph's Committee deals with them. They are a diminishing number, I am happy to say. 16372. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) If I recollect right, Mr. Joseph's evidence in that respect had chiefly reference to what he called the Salonica cases ?—Yes, that is right. (Major Evans Gordon.) He generalised over them all, and specified particularly the Salonica cases. (Chairman.) Would not those which are most diseased be more likely to go for protection to the shelter, as compared with those who are healthy ? (Major Evans Gordon.) I should have thought so. (Chairman.) I should have thought so, and that they would have been the sick people. 16373. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is an important point, and I think we ought to have other evidence upon it ?— Yes, I should like you to have other evidence. (Major Evans Gordon.) Mr. Joseph was so emphatic with regard to the weak and sad; condition in which they arrived. 16374. (Chairman.) We had better have Mr. Joseph back on this. Would the emaciation proceed from the long journey across Europe and the North Sea? (Major Evans Gordon.) It might be so. They have a long journey, but the North Sea passage is only four days. 16375. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We have had very strong evidence from Mr. Hawkey on the same point ?—As to their sickness. 16376. As to their condition ?—I do not recollect it. 16377. (Major Evans Gordon.) Until recently, the Libau people arrived in a very terrible state in the country, owing to the beastly ships. That was not their fault?—No. 16378. (Chairman.) It struck me, when you gave the evidence, to be ®o remarkable, because, taking a healthy community, you must have some people sick in it from some cause, and it struck me as so odd that in six years you had only one case of sickness ?—Perhaps you will regard me as being qualified to explain. The bulk of the people who immigrate are not the useless class. They are the people who are strong, and who are prepared to battle in the world, and who have more enterprise and courage than the others, and it is those who leave their countries. They are mostly young people and strong people. 16379. That is not the point at all. If you take 27,000 of the healthiest people in England, and allow them to exist for six years, you would have some illness amongst them. According to you, there was only one case amongst these 27,000 people?—Your Lordship seemed so surprised about it, that I made most par- ticular inquiry, and I looked through the whole of our accounts, and I found the account for medical attend- ance (F) in the year 1900. Naturally enough, one would think that that refers to a recent case, and the amount was not small, considering what the shelter Mr. II. would pay for medical attendance ; the amount was Landau. £3 3s. 6d., and it is received on the 27th July, 1900. I - went to Dr. J ones to ascertain the particulars, and Dr. 19 Mar. 1903. Jones has put this note at the back of the account:— - " Since the settlement of this account, there has been no further attendance," and it refers to November 27th, 1896 Then, it was not to the shelter authorities, but to the then superintendent's family. It may be sur- prising, but there it is. (Chairman.) It is a most remarkable fact. 16380. (Mr. Vallance.) When did Dr. Jones put this note at the foot- of the account ?—He was asked about' it this morning. 16381. (Major Evans Gordon.) With reference to the statement you made just now, that these people are all young and healthy, and capable and fit, how comes it, under those circumstances, that such a large num- ber are repatriated annually as unfit ?•—You are quite right to ask the question. It is not the unfit, as I have said before, nor is it the incapable or the undesir- able who are repatriated ; but there is no doubt that in the tailoring trade, for instance (I am speaking from my own observation of many years past), they have developed a trade, by which they can produce coa.ts and waistcoats and other garments at such a rate that, apparently, there is no demand for all they can pro- duce. Take, for instance, Hollington Brothers, where they cut 100 coats at a blow. The consequence is they have not work enough for a week, and they cannot struggle on, because some of them only get a day's work in the week. They say, "We prefer to go back and struggle at home," but they are not the undesirables in the sense in which Mr. Cohen may have used the word. 16382. May I call your attention to a statement made by Mr. Leonard Cohen. He said that the peop'e re- patriated were the people who had no right to come here. Those were his words ?—I may say I personally have no interest in this matter, and if you shut up England to-morrow, and not allow another foreigner to enter, I should be the richer by many thousands of pounds. I do not want to boast, but the community knows it, and, therefore, I am speaking absolutely from experience when I tell you that what is called the un- desirable we are keeping a very sharp eye upon. 16383. Whom do you classify " undesirables " in that sense?—'Suppose a woman comes here in search of; a husband; she has not got the address, she has no husband, she does not know where he is, and she wants us to find out—sometimes we succeed. I go to the small synagogues, and I send round and ask them to call out at the services on the Sabbath that the wife of so-and-so is here, can they give any informa- tion about the husband. Occasionally he is found ; but if he is not, then, within a week we certainlv pack that lady home again, because we cannot afford to keep other people. 16384. (Chairman.) That is a very small case?—That is one. 16385. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to crimi- nals and people who are undesirable generally, how do you classify them ?—I think it is impossible to re- cognise specially a criminal. 16386. That is not the point. The people whom you repatriate, barring the ladies in search of husbands? —And old men who we think ought not to come and enter the arena, struggling for a living here. 16387. But all these things you are saying now rather qualify what you said before, namely, that your ex- perience of the people who come here was that they were so strong and fit and healthy and desirable?—- What I call the undesirables are very few indeed. 16388. There are a good many thousands that you have sent back in the last few years ?—— 16389. (Chairman.) Supposing you had information that a man coming over here was a criminal, would you send him back if you could?—Undoubtedly. 16390. Have you ever done so?—'We have never had any information of the kind. How are we to get the information ? 16391. Have you ever seen .anybody with disease upon them ?—I should not like to answer that. The superintendent is here who comes personally in con- tact with them, and he Mis me there was cup5 m RORAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN' IMMIGRATION : Wr. FT a person arriving with; a disease upon him, by the Landau/. ' Unions-Castle Line/ L : JD^~~jqno 16392. {Major''Evans-,Qordori.)/What do you do with *• ' the, people who are absolutely without means?—'I thought 7011,....would ask me that and to explain why it is , we fix exactly 14 days as the maximum residence,aUowed mside the shelter. We found it necessary for this, roa&on, that a great number of them, I am sorry to say, have been robbed in one way or another en route, and did not have enough money to carry them on to their destination when they ar- rived in England,' and as -a consequence they had to remain here for the want of money to proceed. We then allowed them sufficient time -to write to their friends, who, in a great number of cases (and I could show you hundreds of registered letter envelopes), send them on sufficient money from home or from America to, enable them to get to their destination; therefore, we had to fix a period which would cover a sufficiently long time to enable them to do that. 16393. Supposing the money does not arrive from home and their relatives do not help, what do you *do with those who iare absolutely without money at . all ?—Then we persuade them to return, 'and they do .^return; but they are not many. 16394. About the amounts of money which the emi- -grants have in their possession; you say it is diffi- cult to gauge ?-—Very difficult. I think the Board of ' "Trade officer will tell you how difficult it is. 16395. Therefore, you know very little about their Teal means ?—Except that we have discovered consider- able sums of money on some of them who declared they had none. 16396. When their clothes were going to be burnt ? ----'Exactly. 16397. You say these people are robbed and ex- ploited when they are on their way; does not this robbery and the price of their tickets that they have had to pay exhaust their funds in many ciases ?<—In a great number. 16398. There are numbers who arrive with nothing in their, pocket ?—Practically. 16399. Owing to these things that you say occur? —Yes. .... 16400. As far as I could discover abroad, they are hot robbed when they are travelling by what you may call' the legitimate routes:, but where they are robbed is on the Polish frontier ?—Yes, .16401. They say: "How much will you give me to get you. across" 1., That is where they are exploited? —-That is noti the robbery. The robbery there consists in this (I am afraid that they have not initiated you) that, the smuggler undertakes to take the man across, ;and there, is a competition among smugglers, because .one will take the man for 10 roubles, and the other wants 20 roubles. We will say the man who takes liim for 10 roubles is in league wiith the frontier guard, and he says: " At a certain point you intercept us." The smuggler and the frontier guard extract from the man every penny he possesses. 16402. (Chairman.) Then they 'let him go on?—Then ^they' let him go on, when they have absolutely de- prived him of every penny. 16403. (Major Evans-Gordon.)He could not go on if: "he was deprived of every penny, because: he must bave a ticket; they leave him enough to go on to Ham- burg 1—They know their business, I dare »»y. 16404. I know that is a 'fact. My point at the mo- ment is : Does not this taking away of their money occur in the smuggling trade, and not at Libau and the other1 ports, where they come without any rob- bery at all. They get to ^Hamburg, and there they are fairly treated, and nobody robs them there?—But you are aware that they have to pay for compulsory bath—I think it is about 4s. ^-,16405'"At Hamburg?—At Hamburg, and -that" other depdt near-Berlin. 16406. That may be so; they are exploited in many ways. Then a little further on, in your evidence, you my: " These amount to 27,241 up to October, 1901. The number who stated their intention of leavinsc. for abroad i^, t\he same period was. 17,260, forcing. about 63 per cent. of the 'wio-le." In that period, from 1891 to 1901, the increase shown by the census was 126,000 and your figu^ would only show an increase of 10,Ud0 ? —Yes, because the census did not take cognisance of what we took cognisance of. 16407. They took cognisance of more, did not they ? —Evidently. ' 16408. Then, besides that, a great many thousands, some 20,000, have been repatriated or emigrated dur- ing/those 12 years; therefore, if the 27,000 who have passed through the Jewish shelter and the emigrants are 17,000 again, where did the '20,000 repatriated and emigrated cases come from?—We have not only been treating, as Lord James pointed out, the cases that the shelter actually took charge of. You have -not; been treating of those which have simply passed through the shelter, and the sole service that the she!-, ter rendered was to take them to their addresses. 16409. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Those are not included ? —Those are not included. 16410: (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then, about the ship- ping ring. What you tell us about that is very interest- ing, but can you explain when there is such an enormous benefit to the people going by England and a profit of £3 odd, why any go direct by Hamburg and these places at all? I wonder they do not all come via England?— I have the Transatlantic rates. All the Transatlantic passenger steamships have agreed a minimum scale,, and so on. 16411. But there is this constant invasion of this ring. What I wonder at is that the influx coming through England is not much greater than it is?—I think you will have found when you were in Germany that the German officials do their best to induce all passengers to go bv German ships. 16412. They have to. It is the law of the country?— Exactlv SO1, and it is only by the instigation of agents that many of them come, here, and it is only those agents who have correspondents in London who, as I have said before, advise them on their arrival here to change their names, because the German agents send over the lists of the passengers that go from Hamburg or Bremen, and, therefore, they have to change their names in order to obtain a ticket by the ordinary English steamship companies who are in the ring. 16413. And besides the English steamers, the Kurston line have to take their tickets through Germans, other- wise they cannot take them direct ?—Quite so. 16414. That supports' the contention that, if England does not mind, the German shipping companies will get all the traffic. It suits them just now to enter into a kind of ring with the English until they have diverted the stream entirely into their own hand, and when they have done that they will be independent. 16414*. Then you go on to say, "Numbers of the immigrants are actually discovered to go to America and to other places after having stated their destination to be London, and as they are conducted to the station, by the officials of the shelter, and their tickets very often purchased for them, proof is positive on this point." That only refers to these 27,000 that you actually deal with?—That does not necessarily only apply to those; it would apply to a great number of the others. Why should it not? 16415. Why?—Because people who arrive often give certain addresses, but we find there are no such ad- dresses, but ultimately they find their way to a man cialled Bloch, or to Stern, or to Kahn^ who ..are the correspondents of the agent who sold them the. ticket abroad, who give them, as it were, an, address to show to the Board of Trad© officer, that is to say, an address in Plumer's Row, or somewhere. The man was not expected there at all. They did not know him, and then, ultimately, he opens his heart and tells us he wants to go to Bloch, or Kahn, or Stern, or some of the agents. 16416. Would they come to you to get their tickets afterwards ?—Not these people, but some of them do. 16417. Some of them do ?—Yes. 16418. But broadly speaking, these that you speak of as taking their tickets through the shelter are people who actually passed through vour hands ?—Yes. 16419. Then you say, "It is, of course, probable that a' certain numberfalso; go on after having proceeded to addresses in London ? "—-The superintendent points out that, whereas in 1901 we had 1,327 passengers that, we know have gone on to America who had not declaredMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 585 their intention of doing so on arrival, in 1902 the number was 4.392. 16420. Who you know went on?—Yes. 16421. (Chairman.) Let us have those figures defi- nitely. How many do you say were passengers who had not declared their intention to go on, that is to say, not stated to* be en route, but who did go> on ?—1,327 in 1901, against 4,392 in 1902. 16422. Those are comparisons between 1901 and 1902? —That is so. 16423. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) So that, out of the 22,000 that arrived in 1902—• P—27,000. 16424. No, 22,000 arrived in the Port of London at that time, and out of those 22,000 you know for certain that 4,392 went on P—Yes. * .16425. You know that?—Yes. 16426. And you say that it is probable that others went as well ?—Yes, seeing what the reason is. 16427. Do you know what happens, to these peoplei .at Liverpool when they arrive ?—I really could not tell you about Liverpool, becausie I have not been there, ex- cepting that we send them to Liverpool en route for America. 16428. Do you know whether they are examined there hy the shipping authorities, and so on, before they are .put on board?—I could not tell you anything about them. 16429. Then you say, "The immigration still continues, and the concentration of foreign Jews in the East End is large. I attribute the late increase in the number of immigrants to the recent agitation, and to the fact of the sitting of this Commission, which is interpreted t>n the Continent- of Europe to intending immigrants as foreshadowing the complete exclusion of foreigners." "This reason would only apply to 1902-3 ?—Yes. 16430. I am bound to say I found nothing confirming that view that there was an idea abroad that we were going to totally exclude foreigners. Among the culti- vated classes, I found they knew of the Commission going on, but among the poorer people, the actual people who would emigrate, I spoke to great numbers, and they 'never mentioned a word about the idea of stopping it, so I do not think that was a prevalent idea amongst them ?—I think you would have found the class you have just alluded to1, namely, the poor people, are very ^cautious indeed about making any communication to anybody which tends at all to anything. They are afraid to open their mouths, but I tell you how it gets abroad. When a man has a father, or a brother, or a sister, or •some other relation in London (and you will admit that ibhe man here knows what is going on) he writes to them and says, " There is a chance of your being excluded." Then the man abroad says to himself, " I had better take the bull by the horns and go now," and we find many have absolutely come under this irepression. 16431. I have found a good many cases in which they .have shown me letters which they have received from their relations, and the relations here said, " Whatever you do do not come, because things are so bad here?— "We all do that because it is true. 16432. Now you say that the concentration in the ^East-End is the result of natural causes ?—Yes. 16433. I must join issue with you there, because I •cannot admit, that the large influx of foreigners from abroad, no matter what the cause is of their coming, is •s, natural cause. It is something quite abnormal and •exceptional ?—I said that the concentration arose from natural causes, and I consider a natural cause the im- mense: number of warehouses, which I dare say are wanted, by the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, ;and I suppose it is a natural thing if they want the room that they should take it. 16434. But what I want to point out rather is the immense amount of aggregation of people, some 50,000 or §0,000 people in the East-End of London, who arei not there from natural causes, and, therefore, that it is increasing the pressure enormously. But you admit that, added on to the warehouses, and to all the other things which I admit, there is a steady inflow of a large population who naturally go to one centre for reasons which we all understand, and I say that must be an imSnense added pressure whichever way you look at it, and cannot be really considered as a natural cause. It is something abnormal?—That is to say where a popu- lation is too thick you say this is an unnatural state of replace his workmen. That is -what I feared,-' and to ^show you the vigilance that we display at the shelter • that fact was at once communicated to the Board of Trade officer, so that it might be communicated to the of Trade, and inquiries were made., ;/; 16^57. Y«qu woaM b© against contract labour, any v^ay,!—Ye& - 16458. Th&ii you say, 11 The slums of the East End compare favourably with other .parts of London and the country, and with the slums of'other great pities—Paris, Berlin, etc. It is .grossly unfair to ascribe conditions which exist generally throughout the country to the in- flux of alien immigrants in the East End." I do not think, it has ever been asserted that we ascribe these ; conditions solely or generally to the influx of aliens ; but dp not you admit that they add to those conditions ? --The same as any other concentrated population would, arid the reason for the concentration I have already given. 16459. It is an added cause, in fact. Then with re- gard to restriction, you say that any machinery we could s show where are the undesirables and what they are. Are they criminals? Look at your prison returns. I say there are very few criminals who are real aliens.. They are resident aliens, , If you get the returns from all the ports, you will find that that is where the bulk: will come from. (Sir Kenehn Digby.) We, shall have the returns in a, much mpre complete ;f orm, showing the different prisons, and in what parts, of the country , they are. 16469'. (Lord .Rothschild.) What I understand your' point to .be is this, that you are mostly concerned with the Russians and Jews who arrive here ?—Yes. 16470. And you wish to point out that among the alien prisoners the proportion of Russian Poles i& smaller than the, others?—That is so, in spite of a, kind' of epidemic of criminality lately, which I will >dmit. 16471. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Taking the police court statistics and the, prison statistics together, there has been an increase lately in the police court especi- ally?—Yes. 16472. We should infer from that that there has been a degeneration in the class of people arriving here and the alien population generally ?—Yes. 16473. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You will have it for five years, which would be more complete?—Yes. 16474. What is your forecast as to the future? Do you believe that this alien influx will increase or diminish or not ?^-If there is any reliance to be placed on the recent manifesto of the Czar, you will not be troubled with many cases of Russian or Polish immi- grants here, because that would be the best country in the world for them to live in. 16475. Is it your view that it entirely depends on the action taken by foreign Governments ?—Entirely. I would not yield in my loyalty to anybody, ancl if I could see anything in this 'movement calculated to weaken this great country, to which; I apn so much in- debted, I would be the first one to oppose it.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 587 •3 *Mi4E6. 'tKore^'is.: no,> n^teal tendency to- come liere/ or there is; great-unwillingness on their, part to leave their country. In England emigraibion is:; nothing. -A -young man in England goes to Australia or Canada or New Zealand, and he simply goes, to an English- «peaking country,andhe is accustomed to it, but the emigrant from Russia (I am sure Major Gordbri will support mein tihis)'weeps asif his child had died when lie leaves the country. 16477. You: would ' say that the more humanity pre- vail^ in th© foreign country the more will immigration dim,iiiish Exactly so, and the same upiplies to Rou- manian 'n lg4|§.! - With regard, to poy erty, you say that great many of t&ese people, from one cause or another, ypu believe, have actually nothing when, they come here ?— "$&i§J,:!lh&re 'a':nuihber of them, I quite admit: *,:T do Jiot say a great number, but a number. 1 !- ; 16479V'You' look -after" them, I understand,. 'for" 14, Kiays, 'in order to tide them over a time, and put them an a position to earn something ?—Yery few remain the J.4f days. The average is six. . 16480. Can you give me any idea of how many of these people come back to you for assistance. In what sort Of fj^oportion do they come1 back to you for assistance~ after they have passed through your hands ?—I know of none. V 1)6401. {Major Evans-'&ordon.) That would hot foe jfart of your relief. Your .institution is. only for first Arrivals, and you. do not give' relief afterwards. They would go to the Jewish Board of Guardians ?■—Yes. 16482. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) So; far as you know, do many of these people come back after you have started them in this new life ?—No. There have been cases where a man has. come to;me and said, "My brother and my father senlt me so much, and it realised £4 15s., and the ticket is £5 10s. ; I want 15s. to go over.v 16483. But I am asking about those who stay here P —No, I know of none. v ' 5 ; 16484. What I want to get is. whether these people do in any shape or form become a burden on the com- munity ?--Oh dear, no. ' ^ ' 16485. Then I take it your experience is that no fur- ther assistance is required for these people, except in some cases1 to send them back again?—Yes, those who cannot find work. 16486. With regard to this, concentration you have spoken of'in the East End, do you look, for the remedy for that -at all in the dissemination and scattering them in-^ oither places P—'I think if you call Sir Samuel Mon- tagu, who has recently, within the last year and a half •or two years, founded the society for the nurpuse of dispersing them and taking them out of the'7 East End, lie willi speak to that better than I can. " ' 16487. (Mr. Vallance.) Your contention is that the shelter, to no appreciable extent, affords an attraction to the immigrant from Russia and Poland, but , it is merely a humane and temporary provision for those who land I-—It is protection for them, in fact, to pre- vent their becoming paupers. 16488. In the last year, 1902, you say that there were 2,270 dealt with in the shelter, that is, they were received there, and accommodated and boarded ?—Yes. 16489. I havei not the official figures before me, but I have no doubt these figures are correct, that the num- ber of immigrants into the Port of London last veai was 35,482?—Yes. 16490.. So that about 6 per cent, of those only were received into the ©belter ?—Yes. :. • ; 16491. Then you say that 95 per cent, of the total number iof; alien iihmigrants-arriving7 in the Port of London passed through the shelter ?—Yes. 16492* By that you mean they passed through your hands ?—Yes. 16493. And 6 per cent, only remained in the shelter ? —Yes. 16494. You . say these immigrants passed through your hands? In what way did they /pass through your hands? What was the procedure?—The procedure is' this : there is a register, and their names are entered their callings are entered, the addresses, to which they go, and the relations to whom they go. 6144; 16495. Do they pass through your hands in the sense Mr. H. ~ ofj any investigation; a^d any conduct by your agent to the places where they are going to ?—That is to say, ~ ioo% that they are in charge of our agent to prevent their ^r' falling into the hands of people who offer them lodgings and mislead them. 16496. Where does your agent .leave these people who do not go into the shelter ?—They are all brought to the shelter, and their-particularstaken, and then, they are immediately taken on to the addresses of friends or relations that they may have here. 16497. Those who have not friends or relations, where are they conducted' to ?—They can remain in the shelter. : (Chairman.) For fourteen days ? ,16498. (Major Evans Gordon.) They average about six'days, I think ?—Yes, they average about six days. . 16499. (Mr.' Vallance.) But 6 per cent, only last year were received into the shelter ?—That is so ; the others went to the addresses, of friends and, relations that they had. 16500. Do you mean that the large proportion of that 94 per cent, would have friends and relatives to whom they could go ?—Apparently there has not been a larger proportion than that of those who had no friends. 16501. What would be the explanation of the fact which we have had before us in evidence, that families are frequently'dumped down, as I may term it, near dwellings, and then are absorbed at nightfall into the houses ?—-Oh dear, no ; it is unheard of. I have known the East End of London for 38 years, and such a thing is unknown. 16502. Do you mean you have never heard of families with all their' belongings being in the quadrangle of Thrawl Buildings, and having nowhere to go to put their heads, but at nightfall having been absorbed , into somewhere or other?—It sometimes occurs that an agent—and we have had cases of this kind-—in Russia will take a very considerable amount of money froGk a woman and-her "children for a ticket to America, to join her husband in Philadelphia or elsewhere. The poor woman cannot read ; he gives her some kind of paper, and he says, " You. must travel via London, and go to this address, and this man will forward you to yonr husband." She arrives here, and there is no such man nor any such address. I have had such cases myself, and I have seen poor women arrive here abso- lutely destitute, all their money, practically, parted with, and instead of going to America to join their husbands,^ they are left stranded in London. We manage to deal with them, and in many cases I have personally spent considerable sums of money to find the culprit and have him punished. 16503. . I desire to recognise the beneficence of youi scheme, for dealing with these poor, people, but I want now to see what the procedure is, and how these people are dealt with when they leave your shelter, whether they are conducted to places where they can be received without overcrowding, or whether you unwittingly have contributed in any way to the overcrowding which exists here %—I can only tell you that I know of no case during the existence of the shelter when any inmate was forcibly ejected from it. 7 (Major Evans Qordon.) It is not inmates you are talking of, but others. 16504. (Lord Rothschild.) How long has the shelter existed ?—As it is now, it was established in 1885. 16505. (Mr. Vallance.) The point is this: Six per cent, last year, roughly, were received into the shelter. ' According to your figures, another 5 per cent, would have gone on with their friends; that is 11 per cent, ; that leaves 89 per cent. Do your agents deal with 89 per cent, by conducting them to the various, places' they go to ?—-Exactly. The 5 per cent., I must tell you, are people who go away with, their relations. : 16506; (Chairman.) But keep to the 89 per cent. ; what has become of the 89 per cent. ?—- 16507. (Mr. Vallance.) In what way is the 89 per cent, dealt with ?—They are taken to the addresses they have ; in-many cases they are agents' addresses, and they are accommodated in various lodging-houses. 16508. Are they conducted to these addresses bv your agents ?—Yes. 16509. And when they are conducted, are they con- 4 E 2588 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. ducted to dwellings where there is room for them and hwndatt. where they can be received?—I think thait scarcely - ---within our purview, because, if . a man has a 19 Mar. 1903. father or a brother in 41, Pelham Street, for instance, " our agent takes him there, and he is welcomed with open arms and joy. We cannot investigate ourselves whether there is room for him. 16510. At all events, you say these 89 per cent., one and all, are conducted by your agents to some place of shelter?—Yes; the bulk of them go to Kahn and several other agents who carry on this large passenger traffic, and they accommodate them in various lodging- •houses. 16511. (Chairman.) That is important. You say a large majority do not go to families or persons resident there, but they go to those agents—Yes, my Lord. 16512. (Mr. Vallance.) By the term, "agent" I took it you meant your own agent?—Oh, no. You will find in the report an item, "Inmates lodged out." That is to say, if at one time there are more than we can accommodate in our own building, we lodge them out in properly authorised lodging-houses. 16513. Would they be included in your 2,200?— Yes. 16514. Are any of these immigrants sent by you to those agents of whom you speak ?—Oh, yes ; very oft&n—almost every consignment. 16515. For what purpose are they sent?—For the purpose of these agents forwarding them to their destination abroad. 16516. But the figure I have given you of 35,000 would be those who were not said to be en route to elsewhere ?—Yes ; but I have explained to you that the agent here is a correspondent of the agent abroad, who sends them here in order to save the difference between the ring price of the ticket to America and the price at which he could obtain his ticket from London. 16517. Then when I speak of 89 per cent., 89 per cent, are not sent by you to their homes or to lodgings, but a smaller percentage, because a certain proportion go to the agents ?—Oh, yes; a much smaller percent- age.. 16518. Of the 89 per cent., how much would your own personal agents have to take to their destinations? —-That I could not tell you offhand; but I should be delighted to have a special book henceforth kept, in order to enter all those who are taken to agents only. Ycu want to know how many of this 89 per cent, that arrived here are taken to private houses or friends, and how many are taken to agents for the purpose of being forwarded. 16519. If you can give the simple figures of the humber last year sent by you to agents, then we shall know where we are ?—I will take care that those figures are worked out. I will send a copy of the figures for last year to the Commission. 16520. With reference to the repatriation which is carried out by your community, what you say is that these repatriations are not effected by reason of the immigrants being in any sense undesirables—that is as regards criminality or disease, or anything of that sort—but it is rather owing to the condition of the labour market here, which renders it undesirable that they should remain?—That they would become a charge on the community. 165&1. You spoke especially of the changes which have taken place in the tailoring trade, which had necessitated the repatriation. You would, then, con- ceive it possible that there might be such an inflow of immigrants into this country that it would be abso- lutely necessary, for the protection of the country, that some restraint should be placed upon immigra- tion ?—I have never seen any necessity for it. 16522. May I put it another way? Is it, in your judgment as a community, not in the interests of this country, nor of the individuals themselves, that cer- tain persons should be retained here, but they should be sent back again?—Yes. 16523. And, therefore, in that sense it was undesir- able that they should come here. Cannot you conceive the possibility of such an inflow of immigrants into this country as to create a problem which would have to be solved ?—Certainly, it is quite possible. 16524. You have heard, I suppose, of the law which Ihas just been passed in America of further restriction. Do you anticipate that that law will have any serious effect upon immigration to this country?1—But it* is not on all fours, because in America they are dealing with real immigrants, whereas here you are dealing largely with transmigrants. 16525. (Chairman.) That is not the question. Do you anticipate that any alteration of the law will send more immigrants here?—I do not think so. In fact, X think the traffic may diminish considerably. 16526. (Mr. Vallance.) With regard to the immi- grants which pass through your hands, can you give us any idea as to the number who would have upon their person papers certifying to the fact that they have left their country under the conditions of law there ?—I should think the proportion would be about 15 to 20 per cent. I would not like to make any definite statement on the subject. 16527. Fifteen to 20 per cent, would have on their person papers ?—Passports. 16528. The undesirables—that is, the criminals, or the semi-criminals, ur those who are evading military service—would seek to be smuggled over the frontier,, would not they?—That would not be the sole reason. One of the reasons for being smuggled across is the expense and the delay. Major Gordon, I think, gave, it to you in very precise language as to the difficulties, of obtaining a passport. Every little! official has to be bribed before an emigrant can get a passport. 16529. Would it not be the case that the undesirables,, if there are any, and assuming there are any, would not come with passports) in their possession, because they would not obtain tihem?—If there was a particu- larly dangerous man who wanted to have a passport, I venture to say he would have no difficulty at all. It is only a question of so much money, and anybody cart obtain a passport. 16530. Is that so?—Absolutely. It is a question, of bribery. 16531. Not a question of character ?!—No 16532. You foresee considerable difficulties in the matter?'—I do. 16533i You foresee considerable difficulty lin . fallacies may be urged "! What is the meaning p£ that ?-^rI dp: not know what he means by ofchat; I suppose he means that two arguments may be {;urge4,., "There is no evidence in support of such a Statement. Indeedj whither; are they to go? America ^in . noit have them,. nor Canada, nor Australia, nor ^pu|h i;Africa. They paniipt re-enter their .coutttry of origin) for they .would not be accepted." To show how jtjbese figures have been arrived at, it is neceissary to examine the . nature of alien lists, which alone Sir ;Howard uses as . a basis for his extraordinary statistics. Firstly, as before mentioned, they give the gross ,number of third, class, foreigners coming in from the Continent. This gross , figure is used by the Board of Trade; when calculating the net effect of the year's traffic. 16577. You use the word " passengers," but it is rather foreigners ; they do discriminate between an Englishman and a foreigner?—I think they ,do in this particular traffic. 16578. You have got the word foreigner in your state- ment, but you really u^ed the word " passengers " '.?— ."Yes, foreigners coming." 16579. They get the fact that they are foreigners irpi$ ;s.pmewhere,. because they return them as such ?—■ ;Yes... " Secondly, they purport to place all such, m- .into one or other of the two sub-divisions, en- titled /iJhpse en iroute, ' : or f Those not. stated tov be en to Sir Howard's letter it will at has misquoted this second sub- '(livision. -He deals with it as if it were headed ' Those jn$uen, .route/, and, Actually says that the list shows ,hQ>P?7 ' not ;en routed; arid, later, gaining strength, re- fers to. the persons on this list as 1 the number of aliens WW arriving for/, sojourn;, as recorded in the alien returns.' " Ajialy&p; thislist"—^1 mean the list of those tp jDe^en .route—and it is found to - consist feUo^ng distihctclasses : —(a) These who are -questioned, and reply correctly that tihey are not en route. These are genuine settlers, (b) Those who are questioned, and for .the reason explained by Mr. $frrc> 11. L. .Hawkey (i.e., so as to escape the restrictions imposed F/inanuei> k by the Confederation of Shipowners), state that they ' m.a. are not en route. These are not settlers, (c) A very — large class, who have no* inquiry as to destination put 1^ Mar. to them. These may or may not be settlers. ~ "As to this third class, I quote from page 11 of the 1900 report." 16580. That is the Board of Trade report ?—Yes, the quotation is as follows : — " In some cases the number of aliens known to be proceeding to places beyond the United Kingdom is stated in the alien lists. . . but at some ports, not- ably London and Newhaven, this is never, or rarely done." , I have actualy known a case in which the in- formation has been refused on the Newhaven line. " How it is worked at London can be seen by referring to the lists themselves." . 16581. What is the meaning of the alien lists? Are they the Board of Trade lists?—Yes, the Board of Trade lists. 16582. Monthly returns ?—Yes. " On page 45 of 1900 report it appears that 33,039 aliens arrived in London in .the year. Of these five only were entered as en route. The other 33,034, for want of a logical sub-division of •the lists, not having their destination inquired into, were entered as 1 not stated to be en route/ and Sir Howard, having dropped out the words ' stated to be,' notified them to Lord Salisbury as ' not en route.' It is impossible to regard Sir Howard's mis-quotation as a mere mistake. Not only is a term actually mis-quoted,, but his arguments are entirely based on the mis-quota- tion.. Some six yearsi ago I crossed swords with Sir Howard, through the medium of a newspaper which caters for the working classes, and which, on his authority, had quoted figures on a similar' basis. I then gave chapter and verse to show that his figures were distorted. But time after1 time they have been repeated, and, as his letter is an official one, and appended to it is a list of 60 or more Members of Parliament (including two Members of this Commission) whx> support his views, it is oibvious that this obviously unfair system of statistics has firmly taken root." I ought to mention that the figures are Sir Howard's entirely. I have never yet seen any statistics1 quoted in proof of the large number of aliens coming here to settle which have not been entirely based on the supposition that at least. every person entered as ' not stated to be en route' was. a settler. How entirely erroneous this supposition is, I will.show. I have already noted that the Board of Trade, totally disregarding the mere statement of immi- grants as to their destination, makes an annual compu- tation of the increase in the foreign population, balancing; in-comers against out-goers. I have extracted these figures for the past eight years and have set beside them the actual number of aliens appearing on the Alien Lists as 'not stated to be en route,' and who, according to the Alien Committee's letter, should be considered as settlers. ( 16583. Are these comparative figures returned to* ParHainfeait P—No, not in this form. 16584. Where are they to be found ?—I take the- figures of each year from the Board of Trade1 report for suph year. Th figures show that during eight years,, from 1894 to 1901, inclusive, 47,536 persons were found to have been added to the foreign population of this country. The figures are these : — " Actual increase of foreign population on the Board of Trade basis. 1894 1895 1896 1897 , t 1898 1899 1900 1901 Total for 8 years Number of persons entered as 1 not stated to be en route' on the Aliens Lists. 2,800 12,100 13,800 47,536 38,503) 40,422} Page 53 of 45,909J 1898 Peport. 49,613>| 53,084 64,246 77,455 70,610j 439,842 Page 53 of 1901 Report. i.e. only 1 in 10 of those entered on the Aliens List as ' not stated to be en route' are found by the Board of"■09 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr.' Cm E. L. Trade to remain here. The reason for this is obvious. Emanuel, As Mr. Hawkey told the Commission : ' I am generally M.A. deceived *l>y these people as to their destination.5 <1Q QfiQ " Had Sir Howard, before publishing his figures, _ ' turned to page 11, clause 2, of the 1900 Report, he would liave found that the accuracy of the list which he first misquoted, and then relied on, as an accurate piece of statistics, is officially denied in the strongest possible method by those responsible for its publication. The statement in his letter, that all the aliens* in the ' not' stated' list were bound to remain here, because no country would receive them {' America will not have them, nor Canada, nor Australia, nor South Africa5)) is absurdly ina-ccurate. " Take the year 1900 only. On page 20 of the statistics I find that, during such year : — 85,671 foreigners! emigrated from England to the United States. 31,461 foreigners emigrated from England to British North America. 797 foreigners emigrated from England to Australia. 4,699 foreigners emigrated from England to the Gape and Natal. 2,094 foreigners emigrated from England for other place®, outside Europe only. 124,722 foreigners emigrated from England." 16585. You say on page 20 of the statistics you find 85,671 foreigners emigrated from England to 'the United States?—Yes, that is the transmigration traffic. 16586. Wvuld thait include a Frenchman starting, say, from Southampton and going to America?—It would. 16587. Those are foreign passengers as well as emi- grants ?—It would include all transmigrants. I am pre- suming that the larger proportion of them are persons -coming through. 16588. They would not be emigrants in the sense we are dealing with ?—They would be third-class passengers leaving the country. They would be emigrants from England. 16589. You ought to state that in your evidence. You liave not said they are third-class passengers ?—They should be third-class foreigners. 16590. Is that so. Be very careful a'bout this. They are foreigners, but are you sure they are third-class, foreigners ?—Perhaps the Board of Trade representative ♦could check me. I believe they are only third class. 16591. I am told by a gentleman likely to know that they are foreigners of all classes:?—I, of course, accept -that. 16592. Will you make a note of it if you have any doubt about it?—Yes, I should like to look into- it. 16593. There would be a good many persons touching .at our ports and going on; would not a good many Frenchmen go to America ?—I believe that is so, and I believe that is how this large number is obtained. It is the transmigration traffic; they start from abroad, and come through England for the sake of the cheap 16594. I am not at all objecting to the figures, but they are not ad rem very much ?—>They show that the :statement, that once they come here they are bound to remain here, whether they are paupers or not, is not accurate. 16595. What you do show is that they may go through ? —Yea Then I say, " As in the same year only 71,700 foreigners were entered on the list as actually 1 en route,' the remaining 53,000 who actually went abroad must have come out of those entered as ' not stated to be en route.5 16696. (iChairman.) We are dealing with two such different things, because no human being who comes from France is entered in this way. He comes and goes as he likes, and to draw comparison between a French lady and a French gentleman and these immigrant si from Russia and Poland does not help us a bit?—I presume that these figures contain all classes. " The same figures can be applied to the other years under review. 16597. You need not read all the figures, because it is the same thing ?—It is, my Lord, " So that, in six years over a quarter of a million of those entered as 'not stated to be en route,' and who were generally taken to be ' settlers,' were actuality proved to have pro- ceeded outward. " I have heard the question put at this Commission,, whether it was not a fact that there were no means of ascertaining even whether those entered as ' en route5 actually went abroad, and the suggestion was made that the shipping agents persuade them to remain. I trust these figures dispel any doubts on these points. " I think it right to state that the Board which I represent has strongly protested against the continued publication of the Alien Lists, sub-divided in the manner I have mentioned. Every month these' undigested and misleading figures are published and reproduced in the Press., and I am confident that they are responsible for the false impression as to the actual extent of the so- called alien invasion. The Board of Trade makes no use of the sub-divisionsi; on the contrary, in each annual Report (which, unfortunately, the man in the street does not read, and the1 Press does not reproduce) apolo- gises for their inaccuracy, while apparently having either no power or not will to cease their publication. " Another allegation, frequently made in the past, was that, although it might, appear that the actual increase in the foreign population was not ^excessive, yet that this was the result of striking a balance between the out-going and the in-coming foreigner, and that while Dives went out Lazarus came in. There is not an iota of evidence to support this; view, and the very idea of a Russian Jew who had settled here and had done well going out of this country to try his fortune elsewhere is absurd, It is the unsuccessful foreigners and those who merely touch here en route who re- emigrate. "I now turn to the Census figures relating to foreigners, which bear out the Board of Trade figures, and which have, therefore, met with unstinted abuse. I will preface my remarks with a quotation from Sir Howard's letter, because it tends to show the spirit in which the leaders of the anti-alien party have treated any loophole or defence which offered itself to the alien : ' It may be urged that the Census shows no such enor- mous permanent increase in the foreign population (i.e., 234,000 in four and a-half years). As to this, it must be remembered that the Census returns are voluntary, unchecked and uncontrolled; that even the educated often find them difficult to understand and fill in, and the uneducated, not speaking English, let the immigra- tion agents deal with them as they will.' '"It would be difficult to put more inaccuracies into a statement of this length. " The letter was written just before the Census re- turns for London were published, and we Jews were relying on the Census figures proving our contention that the Board of Trade figures were approximately correct. No trouble was spared to ensure that, and so far, at least, as the foreigners were concerned, tha returns should be as accurate as care could make them. " To analyse the statements in Sir Howard's letter, I would point out: (1) The Census is not ' voluntary,' but is compulsory under penalty. (2) It is neither ' unchecked ' nor ' uncontrolled.' The official witnesses have already shown the care taken in the selection of the enumerators, whose duty it was not only to collect the returns, but scrutinise them. " (3) Although, the educated (i. e., the native) might find a difficulty in understanding and filling in his paper, the foreigner (who is categorised as uneducated, although in the East End he is generally a person who can read' and write two languages) was saved both these difficulties. " A circular in Yiddish and English was prepared by the Chief Rabbi, and issued in the name of the Jewish Board of Guardians, on the back of which was a translation of the Census paper in the same lan- guages." I have a copy of that here. "This was cir- culated' by the Census Office. It still, however, seemed to leave it to the foreigner to solve for himself the difficult question of nationality, so the Board which I represent, at its own expense and with the approval of the Census Office, issued a supplemental circular. This was also circulated like the other circular. " (4) The statement that the mass of foreigners in the East End got the immigration agents to fill in their paper is simply outrageous, apart from the fact that there is not an iota of evidence that any immi- gration agent- touched or falsified any single return. Seeing that there are only four or five of these agents in the East End, and at least 60,000 foreigners, the libel is as absurd as it is despicable. " In order to leave no loophole for error, in addition' to the precautions I have mentioned, the Chief Rabbi, with the approval again of the Census Office and ofMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 593 those responsible for the East End rel,::rns, formed a committee of ladies and gentlemen whose character was, I venture to say, above reproach. They took a map of the foreign Jewish districts, and divided it into minnte squares, and each square was given out to one of the committee, and every house in that square was visited, and where assistance was wanted in filling in the paper in English, it was given. I was in charge of one centre, the Brady Street Club "—that is near the London Hospital. "We advertised that anyone in doubt could get assistance at the club at any time on Census day. Some of my assistant?, all of whom were selected by me, visited every tenement in Brady Street Buildings, and the advertisement brought a fair number of persons from adjoining streets for help. I found that there was not the slightest hesitation in supplying informat:on as to lodgers and children, even when the total pointed to overcrowding. I emphatic- ally deny that there was the slightest symptom of the fear which some of the witnesses appear to have heard of. If there otherwise would have been any alarm, Dr. Adler's circular had evidently a reassuring effect. In my opinion, in the majority of cases where there was overcrowding, theee people had no idea that it was an offence. Their landlords knew of it and en- couraged it, and for all practical purposes no prosecu- tions under local bye-laws had been taken in the East End prior to the date of the Census. Moreover, the point has apparently been overlooked that the neces- sity for concealment of the number of lodgers, if it exists, would apply much more to the large number of natives who take lodgers and overcrowd than to the foreigners. The former have, at least, much more chance of knowing the law and its penalties ; so that, even presuming that there was (which I deny) con- cealment on the part of the foreigner, it would not affect the proportions of the foreign and native popu- lation." I may add that Dr. Adler's circular particularly pointed out the absolute necessity of filling in the returns correctly, and informed all the foreign Jews that the Census was not intended for any purpose of military service or for the purpose of taxation. Some of the witnesses mentioned that there was a certain amount of fear as to the numbering. The circular says—'this is a translation—" We here give the assurance that these papers are only desired for the purpose of a general counting, as the Government here wishes to know the number of inhabitants and souls in England on Sunday, March 31st. It is not for the sake of taxes, nor on account of military service or religion." 16598. (Mr. Vallance.) Would you say, in this con- nection, whether there were not also' announcements made in the synagogues ?—That was so. We were exceedingly anxious to get the correct return. " In my opinioji, with a small margin for errors, the foreign Census was as accurate as the English Census, and more accurate than that of 1891. The London Census figures show an annual increase of about 4,000 foreigners. "It must not be forgotten that every person of foreign birth, who has not acquired British nationality is counted by the Census as a foreigner. This works unfairly in the case of a large number of foreign-born children brought over here in their infancy, 'and who have spent the rest of their lives in England, and also in the case of foreign-born adults who have been con- tinuously resident over here for the last 10, 20, 30, or 40 years, and who had to be entered as foreigners. There were 90,000 of them enumerated as resident in the 1891 Census. "Further, it must not be forgotten that the Census counts not only foreign residents, but visitors, and that, as travelling gets cheaper and better organised, the number of foreign visitors will continue to increase. " I was greatly surprised that, on the other hand, Major Gordon put the question to several witnesses a,s to whether the Census figure of foreigners was not calculated exclusive of the children of foreigners born here, and whether their inclusion would not have vastly swelled the total." Then I mention that I con- sidered the question unfair, but I will withdraw that, because that is perhaps rather offensive. " The object seems to be to imply that the returns of the 'foreigners were inaccurate because they included as English their children born over here. As a matter of fact, these children—as numerous witnesses will /show—are English in nature, -education, and ideas, and are, moreover, English in the eyes of the law, and were correctly entered as such. 61J 4. " The Census figures for the East End is 63,673 in Mr. C. H• L. the four East End Metropolitan Boroughs, i.e., 8*9 Emanuel, of the population of such boroughs is foreign. m.a. "It is striking to note that, had Stepney been Q " ~~jQno omitted, the remaining foreigners in the East End 1 only number 9,000, men, women, and children to- gether, out of a total population of 417,000, or 2*3 per cent." 16599. Total population of what?—Of the East End boroughs, exclusive of Stepney. 16600. (Major Evans Gordon.) What do you call the East End boroughs P—The four boroughs comprising the East End. 16601. {Chairman.) You refer then to three out of the four boroughs ?—Yes, the remaining three. " The following boroughs exceed this proportion of foreigners, and in none of them is there an alien pro- blem, though several of them suffer from an over- crowding problem:—Finsbury (2'43), Kensington (2'64), Hampstead (2"76), St. Pancras (3 46), and Marylebone (4*17), City of London (4*61), Westminster (6'46), and Holborn (9'6). "Mr. Foot told the Committee that the overcrowd- ing problem in Bethnal Green had been greatly in- creased by the foreigner, and, later, that the present state of overcrowding would not have occurred but for the foreigner coming in. But at the same time he quoted figures which proved he was in error. He said that to relieve overcrowding in that borough it would necessitate the turning out of 7,000 to 8,000 persons ; but the Census shows that the increase in the popula- tion between the two Censuses had been 700 only. Therefore, quite distinct from any increase in the population, either native or foreign, nine-tenths of the overcrowding would have existed. Obviously, in that district, therefore, the cause must be looked for else- where, namely, in the diminution of house-room through clearances, and the building of factories, etc. " Turning to Stepney, we J ews freely admit an overcrowding problem, and' that among those over- crowded are a considerable proportion of foreigners but what we do insist on is that, even had the foreigners avoided the district, there would' still have been, a large native overcrowding problem to deal with. Taking it to be a fact that the change in the popula- tion of Stepney has been the result of an exodus of 8,000 natives and an incursion of 20,000 foreigners, it must also be noted that witness, after witness has stated that. the natives left involuntarily ('ousted by the foreigners' is the expression used). Therefore, had they not been. ousted, if it is true that the neighbourhood has attrac- tions foi the native, and that they only leave under com- pulsion, they would have remained, and their natural increase would have swelled their numbers greatly. Moreover, if there had been any space in the district, evidence has shown that any clearances in neighbouring districts would have overflowed into it. So that had there been no foreign immigration where you have now an overcrowded population of natives and foreigners mixed you would have had one of natives only& In support of my view that Stepney was bound, anyhow, to increase in population, I point to page X. of the 1901 London Census Returns, which show that out of twenty- nine metropolitan boroughs twenty-two show an increase - in population. The increase, moreover, in twelve boroughs was greater than in Stepney. " I attribute the increase in the demand for house room in the East-end mainly to the alteration in? its character. Formerly a residential, and even a suburban residential district, Stepney has be- come a manufacturing centre. Every factory and workshop set up displaces dwelling room, and. tends to bring more labour into the district.. There are two reasons which bring the foreigner there (1) That, being a foreigner, he must at first live near his fellows ; and (2) that as a rule his work lies there. There are 12,500 Russians and PoleiS (practically all at work in the East-end) as tailors alone, 3,200 as boot, shoe, and slipper makers, and between 2,000 and 3,000 as cabinet- makers and incidental thereto. Some of the old native trades have left the district, while the newer trades are the foreign trades of boot-making, cigarmaking, cheap furniture, and tailoring. I am fairly positive that by far the large majority of foreign Jews living : n the East^ end are employed there. On the other hand, I have, for some considerable time, in connection with my weekly visit to the East-end, taken note of the crowd of persons of the working classes streaming eastwards each night, and am satisfied that practically the whole stream con- sists of English. From this I presume that they are persons working outside the East-end, but living within594 JROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION V Jfn 0. H' L. I am convinced that if a labour, census were taken it V.Mmawuel, '-would 10una that tlie, majority, of foreigners jiving . m.A. in the;, E^tj i^nd1 wor^ withm it, and the ma jority of ........ t/;.,n^ti^esrhaye thisir w;prj£ outside, and-so it is chat the ji# Mar; 1903.,.j^afciy.©-^Qr)ring;.ci^s$es,l,;ai;LiougJi;they, object on prin- ciple to mpving, are,able w avoid rising rents by mo ving into other .cheaper and more sanitary quarters. " In spite of the fact that Mr. Williams has openly advertised for witnesses who' could prove anything against foreign Jews, there has not been a single iota of evidence from any working man ousted from the East- end, and I deduce from this that those who have had from one reason or another to leave have found the ad- vantage of living in healthier and cheaper quarters. I i(-would;like to: have asked each of the so-called friends .of the working man who has given evidence-jiere whether, if he had. the, chance of turning out, say, 10,000 ..foreigners, he would advise the English who have settled , . ,in outlying districts to come back, and whether the ,, working classes would be likely to follow his advice. ; r, . " What I know is that what we Jews desire is to get , our co-religionists to follow suit, and settle outside the East-end, and for this purpose synagogues in outlying ; districts are being started, and some have already been so started as an attraction. " It is an erroneous belief that these people lik-e to , overcrowd and pay heavy rents. They have a very clear /idea of comfort if they can get it, and they (object to unnecessary expense. . But the difficulty is that it is only in a limited district that a foreigner can . get work, and so it is that he has got centred in the East- . end. Jle follows the labour, and if the centre of labour is moved he goes with it. In the popularity of the agi- tation against the alien the impression has grown that overcrowding and lodger-taking are evils of foreign im . portation. As to the existence of unlimited overcrowd- ing of the grossest description in the past, see the sample cases quoted in 4 The Housing Question in London,' ,pag.es 68-70. /See on page 73 a statement of the case which gave rise to the evil in 1884 ; note on page 90 that the same causes were at work in 1890, and yet the evil lhad not increased, to any great extent, in spite of the . ali^p,influx." s ;, Tbe overcrowding shown there is most extraordinary —much! bigger than anything that has been quoted here. " Mr. Hodge stated that no amount of distribution within London would house all who were overcrowded ; but he entirely overlooked the enormous area—'acres and acres of land jn Stepney alone—entirely covered with one or two-storeyed houses. Here the space is abso- lutely thrown away He also overlooked the point that to relieve overcrowding only means the rehousing of the (persons overcrowding, not of the persons overcrowded. .Presume three persons overcrowded in a room only ■ meant to, hold two. Remove one person, and none of \rthe three are overcrowded. . " Without,. however, touching the areas in London whichi are, capable of rebuilding* I find, on reference to The Housing Question in London*' page, 92, that three years ago, there were 14,000 acres of available vacant building land in London itself: sufficient to house 85 mil- lions) and that within an hour's distance, from the centre . there \yas any quantity of land, available and. waiting ;adequaAe .means of locomotion. As; to why this latter ; land is not utilised, pages 93—111 of tli.3 said book deal with the workmen's train service* and shows how defec- tive it is.Page 103 shows that, as late as 1897, there ,. were 800,000^ workmen requiring a daily train service, and there was provisi on for. 100,000 only.'' - (Adjourned for a short time.) (Witness.) ,To continue my statement:—" One of the niost serious charges-made against the alien is his sup- posed destitution, and it. has been repeatedly stated , th$t he becomes a charge to the rates, and therefore to .,.,' his native fellow-workmen. [l<. ]No charge has been so popular as this, and none, I ..venture to say, ]ms been based on less accurate infor- mation. ; ". There are, several series of statistics dealing with the question of, destitution in general in this country, and ' , destitutionv among foreigners; in particular. " First, there are forty-four consular reports as to the immigration of destitute aliens (summarised on pages 13 and 14 of the 1901 Board of Trade ; Statistics). , " These contain the. most striking, refutations of the charge, which;we could wish. " The only adverse one among these forty-four reports is that from .Dunkirk, which says: 4 It is possible that '..a passenger^., crossed to London with little, if any- . tiling,, more,than .sufficient to pay -heir passages.' " It is almost inconceivable that any. appreciable volume of destitution could have escaped the notice of forty-four officers, who are annually., asked to report on the subject. "The reports of 1900 were just as,,convincing. "Secondly, there are the police reports (set out on page 14 of the same statistics) from the various towns. " The details of these are taken from the Poor Law relief figures and from the Jewish relief figures, which are .set out more fully later. The conclusions arrived alt by the Board of Trade in considering these police returns are interesting. Except in their last report, when, for some inexplicable reason, it was omitted, the Board of Trade printed each year in its report a sum- mary of the police returns^ which for 1899 arid 1900 respectively ran as follows : — " 1899.—c On the whole, then, it would appear that, except perhaps in London, there has not been any in- crease among destitute aliens ; and, with regard to London, although the number of destitute aliens is increasing, the report of the Jewish Board of Guardians already referred to appears to indicate that the amount, of destitution among the Jewish population was less in 1899 than in i-he previous year.' " 1900.—' On the whole, then, it would appear that, in spite of a large influx of aliens in 1900, only London and, with a lesser degree, Manchester have experienced any increase in the number of resident destitute aliens.' " These London, and Manchester figures referred to are the Jewish charitable figures, which, were as follows: — " London.—4,931 persons relieved, as against 3,823 in 1899; but 61 per cent., as compared with 50 per> cent, in 1899, were only helped to emigrate. "Manchester.—497 persons relieved, as against 388 in 1899 and 426 in 1898. "1901.—The 1901 .summary would have been' even . more satisfactory, both London and Manchester show- ing large . decreases." 16602. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Why, do you say it would have been more satisfactory ?—Because the figures show a decrease. "To show what poor justice foreigners have had in the past, up to 1898 the Com- missioner of Police of the Metropolis included in his report each year (which was published with the Board ,of Trade statistics) a statement that 'it was estimated that fully 25 per cent., of the Russian 3 nd Polish arrivals in London were destitute.' This was obviously incorrect, and the Board of Deputies protested, arcl asked, either that the source of information should be disclosed or that the statement should not, again appear. Since then the statement has not been .re- peated. In contrast with the Commissioner.'s estimate, Inspector Hyder, a witness called, presumably, by the anti-aliens, informed the Commission that it was one of his duties to look after the landing of foreigners at London, and that he had only known one occasion on which a party of destitute aliens arrived here. " Thirdly, there are the reports from the Local Govern- ment Board of the United Kingdom as to Poor Law relief granted to aliens (page 15 of each year's report). " These deal with London separately, and show as follows : — " Foreigners receiving Poor Law relief : — 1899 - 2,895. 1900 - 2,015. 1901 - 2,767, of whom 1,603 received medical relief. " That, is to say, the figures of 1901 are lower than those of two years ago. They are even, more so than at first sight they, appear, for the Board of Trade appends the following note to the 1901 figures :—' The numbers are not strictly comparable with those given for previous years, as they relate in all cases1 to all aliens relieved, whilst in previous years the returns from a few of the Boards of Guardians only included the number of aliens who had not acquired a settle- ment.' (Page 16 of 1901 report.) " The . report for 1889 notes that ' much of the relief granted in the Metropolis was given in the form of medical aid.' The same applies to the later years." . 16603. (Chairman.) Can you say, speaking generally, what the foreign Poor Law relief was before .1899?—IMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 595 have not got the figures, but I can, 110 doubt, extract them. 16604, It would be as well, if you would hand it in in the course of the next sitting or-two at your convenience ? —I will try and get them, my Lord, " Fourthly, there are the provincial foreign Poor Law figures published by the Board of Trade (page 16 of Mr. C H. L. 1901 report), and taken from the Local Government Emanuel, Board reports." Then follows the table. I might men- m.a. j tion here that, wherever possible, I have bracketed to- ^ Mar 1903 gether towns which appear in all the' three years' re-""" _-■* ports. For instance, I have grouped together Liver- pool, Manchester, Birmingham, Cardiff, and Leeds. Foreigners receiving Poor Law Relief : 18 9 9. 19 0 0. 1901. Liverpool - 536N 499 ^ \ 543 1 \ Manchester 134 153 90 Birmingham - 42 ) 810 53 ) 782 35 770 Cardiff - - Leeds - - - I—1 00 49 28/ 922 39 63, 1 891 Glasgow ' - * 111 96 Edinburgh, &c. * 20 17 Ireland - - * 9 / 8 / Prestwich - * 31 Sheffield - # • 17' Southampton - * * 10- Salford - * * 17 Foreigners receiving Poor Law Relief : Not separately recorded. Not separately recorded. " Wherever possible I have bracketed together above the groups of figures "which are capable of comparison, and it will be noted that in each case the later years poinlt to a distinct diminution dn the provincial relief given to foreigners, in spite of an admitted considerable increase in, the foreign population. " Fifthly, light is thrown on the amount of Poor Law relief given in the East End, with its poor native and foreign population, as compared with other districts with much smaller foreign populations, by the report on Poor Law relief published early this year by the Local Government Board." I may- say - here that I wrote this statement in the summer of last ; year. " It shows that on a given day in December last the relief given was as follows : — Per 1,000. Western District..........- - .........- 17^ Northern District - • - 22 Southern District Eastern District Central District Per 1,000' - 23£ - 25i - m Showing that the East End, which, apart from its 63,000 foreigners, has always been known to be in- habited by the poorer classes, has only a shade more poverty than the South, North, and West of London, and barely receives more than half of the Poor Law relief needed in Central London. Sixthly, there are statistics as to the relief given by the various Jewish bodies to foreign Jews, col- lected by the Jewish Board of Deputies. These I lay before you in tabulated form." 16605. < 1899 - - - " - . .2*4 1900 - ..... 2*9 " These figures show a marked decline. Throughout the; last recorded year (1900) there were only 19 men in the clothing trade—the principal trade affected by foreigners—entered as out of work, being by far the smallest number in any trade." 1^610. (Chairman.) Is there any knowledge of the , proportion of -trades - unionists and non-unionists in these trades ?—'No ; I cannot find any numbers. 16611. I should thittk the -wdrknien who received the poorest wages would not be so likely to be in the trades union as those who receive the higher wages ?—That is very likely. And I should think possibly the ;aliejis would be less likely to be ; but I think the allegation was that the foreigners competed with the, skilled native labourers. " Compare this, with the statement of a witness that there were plenty of' English boot hands to take the place of the foreigners.' The figures of the previous year were as small. As to the alleged decrease in wages, the same volume shows (page 108) the number of persons affected by changes in wages in all trades combined as follows.' " Then I give the table since 1893: — " All Trades. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896. 1897. 1898. 1899. 1900. 1. Persons affected by increases in wages. .142,364 175,615 79,867 t 382,225 560,707 1,003,290 1,744,444 j 1,066,400 2.' By decreases in wages 256,743 488,357 351,895 < 167,357 • 13,855 11,865 1,132 I 21,900 Average/weekly ™e or fall per head. ... ■ , d. + 5| 1 s. d. -1 4* s. d. -1 3i d. + 10| s. d. .+1 Of; • s.' d. > +11J7 : [ -• s. d. !■' +1 6b | s. d. +3' 8| < Showing not; only an enormous increase of persons the clothing trade, which has always given employ- ^ibose vtyag^Rto£eIncreased, but- a continuous; and ment to a large proportion of the foreigners. The ■considerable increase per head' per week. The same figures are as follow:— & ' .volume (page 109) shows tho variations in wages in . Clothing Trades. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896. 1897. 1898. 1899. 1900. -1.: Persons affected by increases in wages. 3,599 , ' 3,457 1,784 2,697 1,939 - 1,065 2,704 8,400 ■% By decreases; in wages !- ! <,•••• • ......' 1,450 5 4° 700 - 1,500 500 : -3. A verage weekly rise or fall s. d. ;+i 1. s. d. + T 4 s. d. + 2 Of f s. d. + 1 3|- s. d. + 1 lli d. ' 51 2, Not fur nished. 4., Total amount of change per week.1 '■ +285 - £. " 4-33.5' £. + 188 ;+2i9 ' £. + 189 £. . +48 1 £. + 180 . o + 16612. On what unit is that 5^d. and Is. 4^d. ?—That 16614. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are these only people is the.average weekly rise or fall of wages per person who are in the trades unions who are in this table?— affected. • •> - I cannot find that out. ■ 16613. That is nothing to do with' piecework ?—Pre- 16615. The number of persons affected is so small sumably not. that you could hardly judge anything by that?—Those600 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr, C. E L are increases. There must be others who are stagnant. Emanuel, There are a large number of persons mentioned in the m.a. table. 19 Mar. 1903 16616. (Chairman.) Where do you get that rise of —r— 3s. 8d. in 1900? You, have got an enormous rise in miners' wages in the coal trade in consequence of what did exist in 1000, but I suppose you would not be able to discriminate between the different trades?—I am afraid. I cannot. 16617. I do not think this lias very much to do with what we are discussing ?—It only shows the general increase. 16618. You have got something more valuable in the variation of wages in the clothing trade. Where do you say you get this from ?—From the Annual Abstract of Labour Statistics of the Board of Trade. 16619. (Mr. Vallance.) You do not know how these- figures are computed 1—No ; there is nothing to show- that they are trades union figures, but if they are it- would perhaps strengthen my point, and show there was less competition than I should imagine. I find1 the changes of wages are actually set out according to their trades as well. The mining is set out separately. " The hours of labour have been reduce# also. The following are the statistics set out in the- same volume (pages 116 and 117): — Number of Workpeople affected by changes in Hours of Labour. (a) Generally, in all Trades. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896. 1897. 1898. 1899. 1900. 1. By increases in hours of labour - 1,530 128 1,287 73,616 1,060 1,277 2,600 870 2. By decreases..... 33,119 77,030 21,448 34,655 69,572 37,772 33,349 54,690\ 3. Reduction of hours of labour per week 68,937 311,545 44,105 78,533 284,675 81,917 127,142 227,700' 4. Reduction in hours per week per head of those affected. 1*99 4*04 1*94 0*73 4-03 2*10 3*54 410 (b) In Clothing Trade only. 1. Persons affected by increases in hours - - - 820 - 55 - - 1. By decreases - - 7,840 962 298 1,901 - 2,544 2,563 2,300 3. Reduction of hours of labour per week 15,835 4,776 646 1,683 - 4,868 5,930 6,160 4. Reduction in hours per week of those affected. 2'02 4*98 217 0'62 - 2-00 2*3 2-67 ; (a) Generally, in all Trades. 16620. (Chairman.) This would not refer to piece- work ?—Presumably not. There, again, there is nothing to show in the statistics. 16621. These are .all trades again ?—All trades first of all, and then in the clothing trade only. 16622. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These, of course, only deal with big factories, because the particulars are not recoverable, generally speaking ?—They show the figures relating to skilled labour. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In factories where they can get the figures, but you cannot get the figures with re- gard to the people we are dealing -v^ith. 16623. (Chairman.) It does not refer to piecework?— No, my lord. 16624. (Major Evans->Gordon.) Or to home work?— Then to continue: " As to the plea that were the foreigners ejected from their trade their place could not be taken by native labour, it remains to be seen whence the native labour is to be obtained. The number of persons out of work has, as already shown, steadily decreased. Further, the boot and shoe trade—one of the main, foreign trades (occupying 4,076 foreigners of boith sexes)—actually show a shrinkage in labour, the 1891 Census showing 39,000 workers, male and female combined, and the 1901 trade only 34,000 odd, including the 4,000 foreigners. The tailoring trade, which includes the new and constantly extending ladies' tailor-made garment trade, had 52,000 odd in 1891 and 64,000 odd (an increase of 12,000) in 1901, but the 1901 figure included 13,000 odd foreigners. It would require strong evidence to show, therefore, that the labour market is overfiooded as the result of alien labour or otherwise." 16625. (Chairman.) What inference do you wish us to draw from the boot and shoe trade and the number ri labourers having - shrunk ?—That there is certainly no labour, unless it is shown that the trade itself has shrunk, which I believe is not the fact. The decrease in labour is probably the result of machinery~ which has shortened the requirements of the labour market. " On looking at these figures of the tailoring, trade it is curious to note that there has been an entire- absence of evidence of any ill-effect on the Englisk workers at isuch trade." I should alter that now. It. was right when it was written, but it is "the ladies' tailormade garment trade." " It is curious to note tharfc there lias been an entire absence of evidence of any ill- effect on the English workers at such trade as a result of the employment of foreigners. I particularly mention*, this because the trade conditions must have been spe- cially obvious to Mr. A. T. Williams as a member of the- firm of Hitchcock, Williams, and Co., Ladies Tailors.'7" Then I have a note here : " As to the trades union charge that home work common among the aliens is the curse; of their trade, it should be noted that home labour is-, more common among natives than foreigners. The Census found 7,415 male tailors and 8,063 females doing home work (more than all the foreigners in the trade), and 7,767 male boot and slipper makers and 1,73& females (double the total number of foreigners in the- trade) also working at home. The evidence that the aliens only make rubbish is not true, and will be dis- proved by evidence. A further charge made against the aliens is that their advent has ruined the native* tradesman." Then follow several small points, and I think I might skip the next two paragraphs, and go on to the one about the wholesale milk trade in the East- end of London: " Whilst investigating this case I in- vestigated another charge made by Mr. Williams,, namely, that the whole milk trade of the district, whole- sale and retail, had mne out oif Eno-lish hands. He mentioned Duboski, of New-road, as the foreigner who- had taken the trade and supplied all the foreigners. Seeinq an open dairy yard in New-road I entered and asked for Mr. Duboski, and was told by the manager,, an English Christian, that the yard belonged to an Eng- lish company, having branches all over London. He had **ead a report of Mr. Williams's milk evidence, and simply laughed at it. He took me to see his books andMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 601 showed me lii-s list of customers—foreigner after foreigner;1 He does thirty-three gallons a day trade, and 75 per cent, of it to foreigners. He stated that if the foreigners were to leave the district the company would have to close that branch. He gave me the names of three large English firms all doing extensive wholesale business in the immediate neighbourhood. " A specific charge often made against the foreigner, particularly during the sittings at Cable Street, was that he will only deal with other foreigners, and so affects the old-established English tradesman. I can imagine that- the' :raw foreigner, speaking on] y Russian and Yiddish, cannot buy at I b^."toi,^p'©,:.my own experience of them. I have spent one evening a. week. as a. manager at the Brady Street CJiub for ..Working Boys,: one of four similar institutions, started by English Jews for the purpose of promoting .healthy exercise and amusement among Jewish boys at 1%ei age .when the character forms. Seventy-five per *oent. of, the boys, at the club in question are the children fo'Peigijf ;parentsi. Most of theim are apprentices; ap- prenticed- through the Jewish. Board of Guardians, wjiich. advances the premium, and is paid back by easy instalments. Every boy has his guardian, who looks .. after him. during his apprenticeship. " During my six years' experience I have never heard . a word spoken at the. club except in English. As to the hoys, I find them self-reliant, straightforward, and full of healthy, good spirits, often after a long day's work. As to their cleanliness, after, at most, a single warning, I oan honestly state that it is the rarest possible thing ifor a boy to come to the club with a dirty face or hands; ;and, although smoking is allowed for the senior boys) I have only twice during my experience had to remon^- strate with a boy for spitting, a filthy and dangerous habit very prevalent among the English working classes. " What I specially note among these foreign boys is their intense love of healthy exercise and sports. . We jgjste them cricket in the summer and football in the ^winter, and out of over 200 members!, an average of 70 join in these sports, although it entails on each of them jain r^penditure of 4d. for fares alone out of his limited ;p(^ket^nibney, besides a two-anile walk in addition. The? play woll and pluckily, and we challenge other clubs and .often beat them, , f Theyoi^re ^also good swimmers, and last, year w Carried iofi the second prize among all the clubs belonging bo the Federation, of Working Boys' Clubs. This Federa- tion comprises clubs of all denominations;. Our average attendance >at the swimming class is 30, and a further 20 or: 30^et upfor an extra swiin at 7.30 oh a .Sunday morning. Our boys bought 1,000 swimming tickets last season (five months). " Were the boys unclean we should certainly notice at the baths, but we have-no complaints, to make and we go/ to* the first-class baths, as there is a prejudice against the cleanliness of thei water in the second class. "Over 100 of the boys belong to the Jewish Lads' Brigade, where. they are well drilled, and often pass from, the brigade- into the Volunteers. About 70 of them go into camp each year for a week, the cost?of each *boy being about 7s. Many more would go, but cannot rget the necessary; holiday. , >" Six of - our boys,- while still members of . the club, ^volunteered for the war and served in Africa. One of ^them.^ a mere lad,. was made full v corporal -before his ire^imeint sailed s These boys, whether born ihere or bom abroad of foreign * parents,' are entirely English in' man- ners, tastes, and, habits. .. .It is impossible to believe that they can be the children of foreign-looking and for- eign^-speaking Russians and Poles whom one sees in the East End. Some of them are exceedingly poor, too. poor even to pay Id. per week subscription, but the Anglicisation of the poorer ones is as complete as in the (case of the others. "I aim confident that, whatever difference of opinion there may be as to the parents, there can be no question But that the children are indistinguishable from English Jews, and th&t their qualities are such that they will never be a discredit to.this, country. " The evidence from their schoolmasters, which will be produced,-.will, show that, intellectually, they are con- siderably a.boye the average. I can speak from my personal knowledge, that from the muscular poipt of view they are equally promising. In connection with sports and games, they are much handicapped by their strict ;observance. of the Sabbath, much more marked among, tjij&m tfyan among the Jews who have been. English cot seve^ai.geijL^oc'atipiis. Last year a new Jewish organi- sation, of whiqb I ,am a jnember, was form,ed for the courageinentof athletics among Jews in the East- End by means of providing fares, materials,. and prizes, organising athletic clubs for schoolboys, apprentices, anji Others, and arranging contests and leagues. The idea has been most succefesiul. I have .here, two photographs showing the physique of these boys (producing photo- graphs). They are practically all foreigner®,. These are the boys of the club; and it may be taken that 75. per cent, of the boys in the photographs are foreigners. . " A point which I think bas been entirely ?overlooked by our adversaries is that these foreign . Jews have entirely - different aims to other foreigners.. Others come here to. make their money and then to return tp their fatherland with their spoil. These Jews haveMno other fatherland ; they come here to become English, There is hardly an English Jew in this country who,had not more or less recently come into this country as a foreigner. In 1891 Joseph Jacobs, in his ... " Jewish Statistics " calculated that not more than 3,500 of the Jews in London were descendants of those who had come in prior to the 18 th t century, and thai not more than 1,500 were descended! from 18tli century settlers. All the rest were near descendants ,.of. modern, immi- grants. . " The argument that the Jewish settlers would be a source of danger in the case of a. European war, has been urged in the Press. The idea of a Jew who has escaped from Russia or Poland and reached over here taking up arms for Russia is merely ludicrous, and' the member of Jews, many of them descended, from, late settlers, who served with our Army in the late war, although their service necessitated the complete viola- tion of their sacred dietary laws,: and the njimber serving in, our Volunteer- regiments, is proof of their loyalty. As to,the fairness of charging the foreigners wi^h causing the overcrowding problemj I would refer to flMtr. Hodge's own statement, ' Overcrowding is . an old problem in London. I am not sure whether it is increasing as an evil.' I admit that certain districts suffer from the evil as it now exists, but this is because in Bethnal Green in particular; and, to a lesser degree, throughoutithe rest of the East End* the administra- tion of the bye-laws; against overcrowding has been a farce, and these people coming new into the country can only accept things as they are. I am confident that the actual extent of the increase of overcrowding has been much exaggerated, and is little more than'the normal increase of population would have accounted for, if trade conditions in. the East End had remained ^ )before, no-.new foreigners had entered, but the ques- tion of housing and overcrowding had remained un- taekled. The-return of the 1891' Census showed: 19'71 per cent, of the population overcrowded. "In the cry against the foreigners, it is generally ignored that every provincial and every Londoner migrating from his own' district into one whence there is a. housing problem < is a foreigner,. >No amount or legislation against the 6,000 or 7,000 foreigners whoi on average, ■ settle in this country each year1 (and, of whom, poissibly - two-thirds settle in London) wilL affect the problem if the same number of persons from-the cojintry < ;or - from - some adjoining district, -in. London settle in the part affected. The problem of the migra- tion into towns of the agricultural classes and its causes is part of the London housing problem. Those wno have merely local interest and knowledge fail to appre- ciate this, , As to the wisdom or not, apart from the humanity of interfering with the stream of refugees from Russia and Poland, except for good reasons, /I ^oint^to the advantage this stream has Jbedn to the ship- ping industry Of this country. I refer not tb tlie brings irtg here of intended settlers (a traffic in the hands of the foreign companies), but to the carrying on to their ultimate. destination of those who are travelling else- where through England. " Taking, the last 10 years, the number of foreigners who come to> England, and thence to the United States, was 659,000,; to British North America, i56,000; and to other non-Etiropean countries, 76,000 ——" 16633. Where did you get these figures from ?—From the Board of Trade returns—" meaning an average car- riage of some 90,000 foreigners per annum from Eng- lish, ports. Taking the average fare to be £4, tins means an annual receipt of £360,000 frpm foreigners alone. If this huge traffic is compared with the num- ber annually found to remain here, it will be found to be in the proportion of 15 to 1. " Once raise difficulties to free immigration, and the German companies will endeavour, and probably suc- cessfully, to take this transmigration traffic from us." Then with; reference to the criticism of Dr. Hertzl, I will merely , mention that I. understand there will, beMINUTES OF EVIDENCE sbmes- eivideiice given here on behalf of the Zionists. creasing, consequently they would be well able to afford Mr. G: U, L*- Their suggestion is thaft Palestine1 is; an -alternative a. few extra shillings on their passage. The ^erLou?s ^mawu ■ toiOBiigla^i.as. a plae^ of enaigmtion^irom Russiai.. As aspect of the suggested legislation is the etibrtfuftis m.'a ••afepre'^Ja.t/ia-nd/ko:r%lit. power of regeetion which it- would conferon mpetty i9 to igovthere; IT? contesfcthat * ,f Whatnve; JeeiU is that, had Customs' House-official. - No-, right1 of' appeals frohrihis _^ there ^no^c unfortunately, been ah, over crowding of a decision would be o >f any value.' The- :imnii^aat^- les^Ei origreater (degree in the district ^in which these thousands of miles from his friends and His pirotifs,; foreigners have,settled, which has enabled --persons to ignorant of the language and of the practice of the grotind'thei]: campaign on a flimsy substructure of fact, courts,, and with small. means, would 'mot be able-to and had riotuthese- foreigners possessed a religion, and utilise his. rights. In each Bill which has been hitherto certain other peculiarities likely to enlist popular pre- framed there has appeared a power to reiect persons judice, it would have been generally appreciated what 'likely (in the opinion of the Inspector), to become a an accession of wealth and strength these foreign Jews pujqiic charge,' or < not likely to become self-supporting/ are to £hisi country." Then I will strike out the rest The inspector, to use this power fully, would have to of my statement, because it was in connection with 100 gifted with a power of prophesy. As a matter of something that was going on at the time threats. Then fact, during the past 10 years the number of Hussiam ^ ° ° e a ^mmar7 °f nly views. and Polish Jews who have become chargeable to the 16634. Is it merely a summary of what you have rates has been entirely insignificant. The most they read in full?—No, my Lord, it goes further, because it have done in the majority of cases is to accept a free- brings us more up to date : " To summarise my views, bottle of medicine, no greater1 sign, of poverty than the- I cannot find that the East End foreigner has a lower use of a free library. Those of them who have applied standard of life than the native earning corresponding *or relief th© hands of their own co-religionists have wages, nor that after his first few months he earns a almost, invariably attained independence as a result of wage less than that paid to a fairly proficient native the helping hand. Am inspector probably unable to workman.■ Not a single witness has endeavoured to speak or understand the immigrant language,-and only exjplMif' What; he meant by the expression, ' A lower gaining his experience, if at . all, at the expense of his; sta-nd^d of life,7 possibly becanise there is generally an victims, is to decide whether this one will be success- erit^re ignorance of the home life of these aliens. As to ful and that one not.. As Lord James has pointed out,. the alien lowering the standard of comfort, of the the suggested monetary test is bound to be a failure, native, this presumes that the British workmen has less Even were it not so innately, it would appear to be- comfort now than 10 years, ago. This is surely debate- an absurdity to say that a man without distinctive able. In my opinion, the dietary of the foreigner is as qualities, but blessed with £5 or £10, is more likely luxurious and sustaining as that of the native when at the end of the year to be at the end of his resource® once the foreigner has got over his first three or four than a quick-lbrained, resourceful, ambitious Ru^sian^ months' struggle for a footing. He is the equal of the oir Polish Jew with a few pounds less in his pocket, native in vitality, morality, cleanliness, and skill, and but with all the qualities which eaisure success. It far his superior in ambition, willingness to improve, appears to be overlooked that the workman lives oh thrift, sobriety, and regularity in work. His woman- his brains and hands, not on his capital." kjnCl"_IrT referrilig.now to and Poles, 16635. (Mr. Vallance.) Are we to infer that, in your. ofwhem I have a certain amount of _knowledge- set a. jndgmel^ the j^^ion of foreigners fflto the last, good example to English wives, and, as husbands anr. End ^ London h Qr }lag ^ ^ oontributo™ fathers, the men are above reproach. Although willing cause of the ov^crowdin w]li(ill k • t JT whilst; a learner to work for low wages, none better than cidedl has been a comt?ibutory cause. the alien knows the exact moment-when his labour gets ^ _ superior, and he promptly gets its , market value. i n- only a contributory cause %—Only a con- Whilst the Trades Union witnesses were unanimous in tribultory cause. , regarding him as a competitor, some said that, a,s an ( 16637. You would not say it was the cause of the, unskilled labourer he competed with our English overcrowding?—No ; because, ■•in my opinion, if the- skilled labour, others that he competed with our un- native had not been ousted by the foreigner he would skilled labour, and a third that he competed with our have remained there arid increaised enormously. machinery. Possibly, the crux of this^divergence of i663a One point with regard ,to the aliens is that views isthat there is.no competition at all, but thatthe they have been prepared topay a-hiriier rent than alien has carved out his own line, making a class or the natives ?—That is So. • : necessaries which appeal to a new public, and the manu- A T . 1 ' v( V " ■ fapture; of which,, incidentally, njeans employment, of, loooy. And ^ ;has been .said that they have been English capital, and the employment directs and in- ^ccusibo-med. to overcrowding in iRussia and Poland direct, of English, workers. These same, witnesses' were ^ when, they come, here they are prepared ;to submit < unanimous in applying the .epithet 'unskilled' to alien 'J wnditioiL of congestion that, enables them, to pay labour? andin saying that werp he skilled they would higher rents ? In answer to that I am not prepared wllcomehim, What,7howeyer, is certain,' is that were' lo say that overcrowding, except that the areta of it re^tMptive l%islatidri;ir\be;passM'Ugains^tfte so-called ^ larger than m other districts, is greater in the East, unskiiled foreign labour, and the alien were to evade t than is where there are natives only. the legislation and become ' skilled' within the Trades 16640. Do you mean to say there is not a greater Union meaning of the term before entering the country, disposition to overcrowding %—I do not think there is., not only, would the. ;competition.:.be more real, but the 16641. Is not there a greater willingness on the part Trades Unions, in spite of their present attitude of 0f the aliens to pay higher rents than the natives?— welcioine., would be the first to cry out for further I ^ink the fact that their work'lies in the East End restrictioai. .It is curious that; not a trade, wit- makes it absolutely necessary for them to pay higher neS'S, could point' to the slightest visible effect rerits than ^eir wages would fairly allow them to. " of the" alleged alien competition.. . Trades Union t • ^ i • i . x n. wagesdi'ive gone up as consistently as. the number of ' „n P^yin& this high rent, _it would not. be Trades Union members unemployed has declined. In m° S° ,"11 i 'T ,ab'" W London, the alien centre, wages told to bo the liighesr-" crowd ^hers m ?-I: believe that to.be the fact. —that is showh in thi^ same vbluihe'of labour statistics 16643.. And has not that been the real cause of th-es —/vThef effect of the competition seems tobe hidden in displacement of a considerable port ion of the native t-hetv/mis1>.-,;iWhiah.9,''conceals;' Sir Howard: Vincent's; population?—It has been one of the reasons, un- annudl f^ influx:^^ of 50,-ODO': destitute! aliens.^ Asc to the doubtedly. criminals among 'the foreigners, we Jews have nothing 16644. That is that if an alien takes a room, and'is? •tof isayifor thqni, and' as advocates for the real immi- prepared to pay 2s. more 'than the nattive who is living grantjwe^woMi w^lcpme legislation i against them. The there how, and he d!ispiraices: himy then tih^'process goes immigrtet!icfimina3;^crasisei& haye nothing^ in common, on, dnd causes an airhtiunt^fbf -congestion, pf which we and in treatment could and should be kept entirely are' complaining now ?—That is undoubtedly so. separate. A Bill combining restrictive measures 16645. But you regard the question of overcrowdinr ^ againstlboth Wbuld probably defeat its' only-iisefiil, end. as' entirely.- outsideJ the alien question al agree witlx Th^rQguMiotis;^gainst immigrants could only be en- the' County Council. view, that the alien immigration fordM" kgaifi&t tKse arriving; byt;steerage passages The is'dnly one of the causes 6f the present overcrowdings crimirud would ;be careful to wdd sc^tiny 1^ trav.d- 16646. A contributory causc,?-Yes. lingrv Dy a supe^ior class. ••: Mr:1 Uohen showed a con- .....' ; . . J . t .... , , . . . tinu&lly decreasing niimber of families of persons' seek- 16647; You admit1 overcrowding is an evil ?—Yes, lin- ing relief, this would appear to show that the pecu- doubtedly. niary condition of Jewish criminals is constantly in- 16648. Have you had it in your mind in which direc- 61 4- (4 4004 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION ; Emanuel, M. A. 19 Mar. 1903 Mr. C. H. L. tion we should look for a remedy of the evil ?—There ~ ~ are several very drastic remedies ; but I am afraid they would not commend themselveis to anyone. 16649. {Chairman.) Have you any idea to give us? —I believe the cause of the evil to be the existence of factories and workshops in what used to be a resi- dential district. 16650. What is the remedy ?—The natural remedy would be to put restrictions on the use of those fac- tories 'and workshops. 16651. (Mr. Vallance.) Leaving out of the question the aliens, and assuming it to be feasible, would you regard it as an equitable' and proper arrangement for a system of exclusion to be adopted for that congested district?—I think it would be very useful if it could be brought into force. You mean to prevent aliens from actually settling there ? 16652. No, I .am noD dealing with the question of aliens at all. Aliens no doubt would be affected, but generally, on the question of overcrowding, if there is in a given district an amount of congestion which requires to be relieved, supposing the door was closed by some municipal power, so as to prevent its being opened to anyone, native or foreigner, without the sanction of the Council, would that be a remedy?—Tt undoubtedly would entirely prevent further overcrowd- ing, except as caused by demolitions. 16653. There are classes of people who> come within the category of undesirables winch you would admit, probably. You would regard it as in the interests of the country if those people could be excluded from the country?—The criminal, most decidedly. 16654. The criminal and the diseased and the im- moral?—Yes. 16655. It is simply a question of practicability, in your mind, without doing injury to the general flow ?— Yes, that is tso. 16656. (Chairman.) Do we take your! view of an un- desirable to be the same as we got from the last witness, namely, criminals, prostitutes, apparently diseased, and no means of support ?—-I am not quite sure that I should .-admit " no means of support." 16657. Actually without the power to support him- -self?—I should rather have as a test the obtaining of relief from the Poor Law- 16658. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You would not have any -pecuniary test?—No. 16659. (Chairman.) I put the fact that they are un- able to support themselves. I should think that is synonymous with relief from the Poor Law, almost—or starvation. That is what the last witness accepted?— I am only afraid of being taken to mean by that that I approved of the suggestion that those likely to become a charge should be kept out. Apart from that, I certainly am of opinion that the actually destitute on arrival are persons who ought to be kept out. 16660. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The hopeless ?—The hope- "less. 16661. (Mr. Vallance.) As a matter of fact, there is a considerable number of aliens who come into the country, who, in the ordinary course of procedure by - the Jewish Board of Guardians, are repatriated to their jwh country?—That is so. 16662. Do you accept the statement of the previous witness that these people who are repatriated are not to be taken in any sense as undesirables, but who, by reason of the condition of the labour market at that time, and their general physical powers, are unable to -achieve existence for themselves here, and, therefore, it ris desirable that they should be returned—would you accept that ?—I have not sat on then rotas, and I can hardly say what are the cases they refer to. 16663. The previous witness said it was the condition of the labour market, sand he instanced the tailoring trade, where machinery had come in, and, as he said, by one stroke of the machine, 100 garments were cut at one time; consequently for the moment that had dis- placed the tailor. That rather points to the possibility of such a condition of things in England as would make it undesirable that a very large flow should be permitted. Would there be circumstances with regard to the inflow of immigrants into this country which would, in your judgment, justify the State in placing some restriction on them ?—It is an hypothetical case. I take your mean- ing to be, if, for instance, trade conditions and the falling of the labour market, meant that the newcomers reduced wages, or deteriorated labour, whether I should be in favour of their restriction? 16664. May I put it in this way: assuming that the immigration of 10,000 workers into London in one year could be easily and readily absorbed with advantage in the nation, but 100,000 would be an impossibility, and would work injury, would you, under these hypo- thetical circumstances, be prepared to- say that the State should stand on the defensive by legislation?— Certainly, I think that would be the general view of the Jews. 16665. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Would you allow economical causes to deal with that. Is it likely there would be 100,000?—I cannot see any chance of it at present. 16666. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to this first part of your evidence, where you go into the Board of Trade figures, I think it would be for the convenience of the Commission if I did not argue these points out with you, because we are going to have Mr. Llewellyn Smith before us again, and I think we could make all this quite clear when he comes. There is a great deal to be said for your way of doing it, and there is a great deal to be said against it. I have devoted a great deal of time to working out the figures ; and I only wish it to be understood that I cannot admit all this as it stands here, without going into it further. There are one or two little points at the beginning of your state- ment I want to clear up. With regard to the Scandi- navian sailors, your point is that they come often, and appear often in the return ?—Yes, they come and go. 16667. Therefore, the number of sailors should really be reduced by the amount of repetition ? They are a sort of theatre army—they keep on appearing round and round?—Just these particular people, the, Scandina- vians. It is not a very big point, but I thought I ought to mention it. It might make a few hundreds difference in a year. v 16668. But these Scandinavians reappearing monthly in the return would go as a discount against your 3,400 births ; I do not say entirely, but partially ?—I do not think so. They are recorded here as sailors, and they are also recorded as foreigners entering. They would not have much effect on the figures either way. 16669. If they appear over and over again, they would have an effect on the sailors, pro tanto ? Instead of being 15,000 individual sailors, there would be so many less, and the number of times that each Scandinavian has appeared twice in tthe return?—Yes, but that would not affect this figure of 8,950, which I take as the total increase of foreigners in 1901, because if you look at my last table, in which I show the 1900 figures, there are 24,096 more foreigners found to have entered than to have left. Probably one ought to have deducted 300 from the next item, which refers to foreign sailors left unrecorded. ♦ 16670. These figures are most complex, and nobody can really make head or tail of them. With regard to the deaths, you put 3,400 foreigners as having died ; you count them as foreigners when they die, but not when they are born?—I count those who are born foreigners as foreigners. 16671. Born outside this country?—Yes. 16672. But not those born inside this country?— No. 16673. Therefore, you count them as foreigners when they die in this country, but not when they are born in this country ?—No ; I count as foreigners all who are born out of the country, whether they are born or whether they die. 16674. (Chairman.) Because they are foreigners ?— Yes ; and the ones who are born here are British. 16675. (Major Evans-Cor don.) With regard to the deaths, some of these people who die are people who have been bom in this country ?—No ; I was taking the foreign population at the beginning of the year to be a figure which I believe to be approximately correct, namely, 200,000 ; and among them there would have been, at the ordinary rate, about 4,300 deaths. 16676. With regard to the year 1894, you say liens going to America are precisely the ones that are -loing well ?—He may mean the through passengers. 16682. No, he means the ones, the Jewish Board of •Cruardianfif assisted to go> out?—They are the ones who they think will get on well, and will prove a remunera- "tive investment. They are capable of doing well but they are not rich. ' 16683. Then you say that these people are generally people who can write two* languages. I have got the -figures from the American statistics of the incoming Hussiajisi and Poles, and there is more restriction put on theim there than there is here, and I find a large .percentage of them cannot read or write. Then also I want to point out to you that Mr. Samson told me at Hamburg that of all thosie repatriated not one in ten 'could read or write ?—I referred toi Hebrew and Russian. I ought to explain 'here that my own experience of these jpeopie, when they came for assistance in connection "with their Census Return, was that they sent a child •who was at an English Board School, and he seemed very bright. 16684. Then you say the Census figures act unfairly, inasmuch as they enumerate as foreigners children who* -although foreign born, have been brought over to Eng- land in their infancy, and who- have spent the rest of their lives- in England. Why do you say " unfairly " ?_ Morallv unfairly, but legally they are foreigners. But the Census would have been more satisfactory if it had •enabled them to say the number of years they had been .resident there. 16685. Then you go on to say I have been unfair in •saying that the children of foreigners born here should be taken into account ?-~I think, if you remember, I struck out those words. 16686. I do not mind, of course, what you say about me, but quite apart from the question of race, quite apart from the fixity of type, which is, after -all, the most remarkable feature in history ever sine© the days of Abraham, my point in asking for the children iborn of foreign parents is with regard to numbers. I say that if you have got a large number of foreign people 'in the East End of London you are bound to take into ^consideration their natural increase. These are people who, had these foreigners not come here, would clearly not have been here. Is not. that so ?—That is so, yes. 16687. In estimating the incidence of the foreign popu- lation of the East End of London, I say it is not at all unfair, but perfectly justifiable, to take into consideration the natural increase of these people who "have come, who would otherwise never have been here. That is my whole point ?- -But if you km w these children ts I have known them you never could possibly suggest Mr. C. H. L. that they were foreigners. Emanuel, 16688. Put that, out of account. I am talking on the m.a. question of numbers? ]y[ar# 1903, (Chairman.) That is not quite a question for Mr.-- Emanuel; it is a question for you. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But I want to make my point clear, because Mr. Emanuel seemsi to think I am putting something which is, not quite justifiable in saying they are foreigners. I say they are foreigners to all intents and purposas, although in a technical sense they appear as English. (Chairman.) There is so much to be said on both sides. It is quite clear what your1 point is, 16689. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to Beth- nal Green, you say the Census shows the increase of population has been only 700 ?—Yes. 16690. But I find the Census also shows us in the 10 years the foreign population has increased from 1,796 to 4,634?—But that could not affect overcrowding. If there were 8,000' persons overcrowded, the main point is, what has been the increase in the population of that district ? It is only 700. 16o91. The foreign population at the siame time has gone up to 4,634 ?—'The 700 persons could not overcrowd 8,000 persons, whether foreign or English. 16692. (Mr. Vallance.) Has not the area been dimi- nished by railways, and so on ?-—Yes, there have been demolitions, as I mentioned. 16693. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Mr. Harper gave valu- able information in connection with that point. Then you say: "Turning to Stepney, we Jews freely admit both an overcrowding problem, and that among those overcrowded are a, considerable proportion of foreigners; but what we do insist on is, that even had the foreigners avoided the district, there would still have been a large native overcrowding problem to. deal with." Do you say that the English people have voluntarily left the dis- trict?—I was working, of course, on the fact that the foreigner was supposed to have ousted the native. 16694. Either they have been ousted or they have left voluntarily. What do you say has happened ? Mr. Joseph's evidence was that they had left voluntarily, that- there were other influences at work, and they would have gone in, any case ; do you agree with that ? —They have left voluntarily so far as that is concerned. They were not actually ousted, but the local condi- tions certainly acted a,s a considerable inducement for them to leave. 16695. You do not think they would have gone in any case?—I think there is a distaste to shift their homes, as has been noted. 16696. Then they have been ousted ?—I do not think they have been ousted, but the local conditions have persuaded them to see whether it is not to their advan- tage to clear out. 16697. (Chairman.) High rents have persuaded them ? —Among other things. 16698. (Major Evans-Gordon.) If foreigners had noi come there the English people would have been there now?-—I think they would have been. 16609. Then you say that these synagogues have been built in outlying districts ; can you tell us where they are? All- over London ; when I say outlying I mean outlying as regard's the East End—Notting Hill, and so on. 16700. Were these synagogues built to meet the requirements of an already existing Jewish popula- tion ?—Not always ; there are two classes. One erected for the purpose of actually making a counter attraction to the East End, and others because there happened to be a sufficiently large congregation to support them. if or instance, Reading, which is sufficiently outlying. 16701. Reading was formed mainly as an attraction ? 16702. Has that been followed by many persons ?_ Yes, there will be evidence direct from. Reading. # 16703. (Chairman.) What class of people go to Read- ing ?—Foreign Jews, 167C4. Bootmakers ?—They are employed in trades there, but I should prefer that the evidence be given direct. The Mayor of Reading is coming up to give evidence. 16705. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you say: " OneROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I Wm 0^HX ite mast seidpus-charges made -against the alien is his supposed destitution, and it has been repeatedly st^ed:tSati ^e^egom^s a -(?kai-g& to the rates, and there- ^^^fore to his native fellow-workman. No charge has, been ^ so popular as.^his." Have you seen a statement made bfs tibe'5 ^With regard to this matter?—No, I have'&Ot. ; :i ; x %6%06-,!iBaor^^^riiteg^ tKH" Consul-General, m-ffrb' feur^e* or ?aii; iS)feme^ the " Daily CHr'o^ieM 7> of1 Jaimary 13th,: -iL9fc)S^_ sa^s : —u He was fiMyy ^#a^e\ df the evife arising from the Surreptitious introduction into England of destitute' Russian, sub- jects. Extensive smuggling of this kind wasf carried on* n its success was in a large measure due to, the laxity o»f the English laws. Russian ' undesirablesneeded no .passports to enter; ^England. Even the better class of Russian workmen desirous of emigrating were fre- quently fleeced by' designing harpies, whose head- quarters were generally in England." Then he goes on . toj sayu It was only to-d:ay that I had a numb or of destitute Russians applying to me for assistance, some of whom had been brought to England xinder false pre- terices." So he says there is apparently a pretty steady aiidf' Constant stream of destitute Russians arriving here?—I have given you every single statistic I have been able to lay my hands upon as to destitution among Russians or foreigners generally; There ^he actual statistics against the;, Russian Consul-General's mere statements. He may not be very favourably disposed towards these Russian immigrants. , 16707. But still he makes-a direct statement that these people do apply to him for,relief ..?—-I .do not think hex relieves them. I think they conie to the Jewish Board of- Guardians. . ,16708. He goes.on to say: "Where they belong to the Hebrew persuasion the Jewish Board of Guardians v$r'y f, frequently, defray, the cost of their return . pas- sages/'' So those would be the people that he means, and the repatriated ones would be the destitute ones in1 his opinion ?—rYery likely. 16709. With regard to. your statement about the reduc- tion in Poor Law Relief, is not that due to better maji.^geiia^nt .and better,.administration %—T'h^t I: can- not say. I am afraid' that is, outside my knowledge. I Mould hardly think $ie whole of it is. \16710. (Mr. Vallance.) I do not think those figures b£ar at all on the question of alien .immigration ?—I w#it simply: to show a general diminution in the district. (Mr. Vallance.) Generally there is such a siball per- centage of foreigners relieved. fl'67li, (Major Evans-Gordon.) That we know because the Jewish community undertake all that, but Mr. Emanuel's point is that it has not driven English people on to ihe rates—that was your point, iyas it not? ^Ye^, that was my point. 16712. My point is that the reduction in the 'number of people on the rates is due greatly to change of ad- ministration. ; (Chairman.) There is a 60 per cent, decrease. j3?,f0®VtC6.) There was a. bad state of things' in 1870. & .-Was -there "a great deal of pauperism ^Mr\ Variance.) The figures were 'attributable to lax administration more than to anything else. (Chairman.) The decrease did not show the poverty. Vallance.) No,, the pauperism .was in excess. (iCMirman.) If it did not show it the decrease would not.-be so great. . ;; (M^f VMance.) You-got a-very high pauperism then. {CKdirmm.) I .thought you said there was -laxity in relief... J Nbj there -tvas laxity iti? administra- if^eased: the number of paupers,' and that laxity" wasf^11^ over^ the .kingdo'in; ^ There wereindis criminate'doles> ... ,r • 1671Z! (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then you say : " Com- paring the.1901 figures of Jewish relief-throughout the country With those of 1900, it is seen that in five';towns the numfeer-mGreased, while in,seven tpwns tho number- decreased." Is it not th& fact that, there is a gr,^at deal of private giving among Jewish people, quite aps frpmi what, appears in your. Guardians' .i.n,l f^-wh^^ppears^ you^.Giiardi^ a^t^C S T£ corded charitites ?—L-.db; not ' think so . in to^nas.- where there is a recognised Board of Guardians; ^ ; ; • 16714* ^^ly;.there is a! great deal' in Loiidoh:?^I was only thinking a few days ago that I have never yet • been' begged 'of by~ a foreign pauper, not an actual beggar ; one gets perhaps twice a year a begging letter which one recognises at once, , but I think as a rule the private donor :gives his money to; the main distributing^ Charity. v 16715. One receives a good many applications in that direction?—They are mostly appeals from charities.. 16716. With regard to -those returns in connection with Trades Unions and the number of people out of work, do the Jewish Trades Unions make returns ?-— That I cannot say ; I cannot find out the basis on which these figures are compiled, but my point in citing them was that they were obviously skilled labour' figures, and I wanted to show the skilled' labour figures, have not been affected by the aliens. ................. ... 16717. Would you say that the Jewish and other- Trades Unions which we have had before us make a>» mis-statement when they say these people have a, ten- dency to put the skilled men out of work ?—My per- sonal opinion is that they are mistaken. . < 16718. You think they have got no ground of com- plaint at all against the incoming alien ?—I cannot find it. 16719. You think that all these complaints that L at all events, have, heard so very frequently in thei East End, and which have been told us by Mr. Lyons and others, are not well founded, and that there is nofc a tendency to keep wages down. I cannot find it. Wages seem to me to have gone up consistently all the- way through. 16720. Have you seen accounts of those recent meet- ings in the East End, particularly with regard to the Jewish bakers and the rates of wages in that trade ?-— I have not, but I have had a. communication from one- of the bakers' associations, asking whether they may giv.e evidence on the question of wages. 16721. These things were said at a public meetings and at a conference between employers and employed': that the wages were very low, and were a cause of com- plaint among the Jewish Trades Unions, but you do- not: agree with the evidence that has been given—that- these people have lowered wages ?—I only rely on these* figures which I have extracted ; I have no knowledge of the trades themselves ; there will be special evidence- as to the trades themselves. 16722. Then you say, "Seeing the number of foreigner's at work, it is obvious that if they come in and compete with our native workmen for work, the res:ilt must be (1) a great increase in the number on the rates." But surely a number of people might he*, impoverished without going on the rates ?—I do not. think the British workman has much reserve capital. 16723. But he goes a- long time before he goes; on tho- raxes?—Not if you have 50,000 foreigners coming in every year, and accumulating, and—according to° the figures whih have been cited here—tending to keep hint out of work. 16724. Then you refer to the shrinkage I imd erst arid to be apparently due to labour-saving • machinery at Leicester, Northampton, and so on ?—Yes ; but the- figures I quoted are the London figures. 16725. Only for London ?—Yes. 16726. Then in that case, if there is a shrinkage, tile employment for these aliens coming in is growing less T —No; there isi a; shrinkage of labour, not of work. 16727. If you do not employ more hands, and more people are^coming in, that implies less hands are em- ployed /--There;are less hands available for the labour which is available, and it may be there is labour for1 more than are employed at present, 16728. That is,the way you put it?—It is capable of- that interpretation. I was only * meaning to pointJ out thatrthere was no reserve of native 'labour if -you !tum out the foreigners. , ,161^.9;-®av? y°u not got a large number of factories-, established in the neighbourhood of London, lately, which do not. come into these figures at all ?—I cannot do more than quote these figures ; they are very bare. 16730. "-Looking at these figures .of the 1 Taifeing- Iraaej it is curious _ to note that there has -been anMINUTES. OF EVIDENCE. $37 jfrork^Bs," IJhat directly contradict wh$t Mr. Jjyoiis «;aifl ?—I jasked leave to correct that. It should .f, iliavef'been the* ladi.es' tailorTmade garment trade,-.which is a* trade mtraduceji. by.. th0% is it not somewhat hard on these people that they -—— should; be placed in "the position to have to change, as it were, the whole habits of their lives in that way ?— I was only suggesting that, if they wanted to capture a new trade. I was offering a suggestion. I presume whenever a district alters in any way, some alteration of the trade has to take place. THIRTY-EI GHTH DAY. Monday, 23rd March. 1908. ' y present :■ - ' The Right Hon. Lord Ja^es of Hereford (Chairman). • The Bight Hod. Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. ! Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m,t\ Mr. Vallance. . Mr. Charles H. L. Emanuel, m.a., recalled. 16/36- (Major Evans-Gordon.) You refer in your state* ,^not even able to pay one penny a wSek subscription to the boys5 club.'' Does not that |>oiht to ^ certain amount of poverty among their parents ?—I do not think so ; these boys pay for their ^^seniehtis out of their pocket money; they generally ll&ftaibout sixpeaioe a week'; they are apprentices and get small Wages,' and they are allowed to keep about six- pence or a shilling. ' 16737 Some of ,them are very poor?—Borne:of them -are—a few cases.u- - 16738. Then you say: " Once raise difficulties to free immipra tion, and the German companies will endeavour, &nd probably successfully, to take this transmigration traffic from us." Has not an agreement already been arrived at among the shipping companies with regard to transmigration ?—The.re has been an agreement, but it ineffectual. :As. far as I know, the old iaippegment'rlias broken $own by means of a succession of ;whktwemip^aQtically^frauds by the agents. . 5 16739. In what way f—-!1 under®tand that several wit- nesses haye expgained that, the old agreement has broken down by a; series of . what one may call frauds, but which are certainly ingenious means to evade the regulations oi the confederation i I>mj^t ppin^.out)that whati anti- cipated would happen has actually happened in Cape Colony. The German shipping companies aire now using •as a lever to the German transmigrants the argument that if they come to England they would be required to sput down not only their fare to Gape Colony, but their return fare, while the German agents state they "will be willing to take the risks themselves. 16740V Is that done in Hamburg?—Yes, it is com- mencing ; I have had that notified to me. 1674L In fact, they are cutting one another's throats aas much as they can?—They are, in a way; they are not friends. 16742. Then in your summary you give these people a yery- .good) character, which to a great extent no doubt is deserved, but you draw rather a distinction between the merit$,o£ the alien,and the English. You say with re- gard to the alien : " The womenkind set a good example to English wives, and as husbands and fathers the men are above reproach." I think you might discount that to a certain extent with regard to the wife desertion ■cases. • Would you admit that ?—I am not sure these are real cases of desertion; there are a good many cases I know of a husband going away to seek his fortune and relying on the Jewish Board of Guardians to support his wife while he is away. 16743. There are, as a matter of fact, women claiming ^ q to be sent over from Hamburg and other places-saying Emanuel, they have been left ?—-Yes. " • ' i m. a . 16744. Then you say : " The serious aspect of the Sug- gessted legislation is the enormous power of rejection Mar- 1903. which it would confer on a petty Customs House official." Why do you say " petty Customs House official " ?^-He would have the first right to reject, I understand^ sub- ject perhaps to some form of appeal. . ' 16745. But there would be i proper' tribunal here/ there is in America ?—But I suggest in the words which follow that the right of appeal could not !be availed of by £he alien because he is so far from his proofs: and he is a stranger. 16746. Why should that apply here more than it does in America ?—I expect it does apply in America, to a certain extent, but they reject very few in America. 16747. Then you say: " The inspector to- use this power fairly would have to be gifted with a power of prophecy." You know, with regard to the Argentine Colonies, in a great number of cases the people who propose to go to Argentina from Russia and Roumania, and so on, are- subjected there to a very close, examination by com- mittees of their own communities ?—I think their own community would be most likely able to prophesy more correctly, because they have had a long experience of them. ; 16748. Therefore if there was a restrictive law they would be subject to that kind of examination, in all probability, before they started, would not they ?—That I cannot say. 16749. But they are now with regard to Argentina ?— Because the colonies there are supported by Jewish charities, and they want to save expense. 16750. (Chairman <) Do the shipping companies take any steps at the port of embarkation' to reject ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Oh, yes, very strong steps. 16751. {Chairman.) They are under the penalty of bringing them back ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, and they take very close steps.. ' ........... -' 16752. (Chairman.) Is it an organised board ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) They have these very great depots in which they are dealt- with. I describe that in my report, and they are examined practically by doctors, and there, is a very close scrutiny that they are sub- jected tO;, (Witness.) This clause only applied to one ground ofROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: fr: II. L. objection—namely, that of being likely to become a Emanuel, public charge. I hardly think the shipping companies A • examine them as to that. & Mar. lixr;:. 16753. They go in for their general fioness. They look a£ the American law on one side and the possibility of getting into the country on the other, and they judge as well as they can?—Yes. 16754. Then you say a little later on : " Those of them who have applied for relief at the hands of their co- religionists have almost invariably attained independence as a result of the helping hand." That does not apply to the repatriated cases, does it?—Oh, no, it would not. As a rule the repatriated oases get no relief. Might I mention one point? Mr. W. C. Johnson, a member of the London County Council for Whitechapel (I thought it was hardly necessary to bring him as a witness), has written to me saying for many years he was a wholesale grocer in Whitechapel. " Dur'n?J he last seven years at least half my turnover was with Jewish aliens."' I have also extracted some figures that were in my evidence, but which I did not read, from the official returns of persons in prisons in the United Kingdom, showing no increase in foreign crime up to the end of 1901. That shows how the present increase of crime is of very late growth apparently. The proportion of foreigners, in prison, to natives in 1898 was 1-15 per cent.; in 1899, 1*14 per cent.; 1900, 1*36 per cent.; and in 1901, 1*35 per cent. These figures represent the proportion of foreigners as compared to the general number of persons in prison. 16755. (Chairman.) How would that compare with the pa^t periods—say, for instance1, 12 years ago ?—I have not looked back for those figures. 16756. (Major Evans - Gordon.) With reference to these figures, they are for the whole country, are they not?—Yes. ■v; 16757. Of course, there are certain districts whero there are no foreigners ?—I think the whole country is the fairest to take, because you get in there all "ths ! . foreigners and all the natives. 16758. But in London, where the foreign population is the thickest, the foreign population is 2 98 of the whole population ?—Yes. 16759. And the foreigners charged in Mr. McConneirs court, which is the London Sessions, are from 13 to 25 per cent.,?—That is a particular district congested with foreigners. X think it would be fairer to take the whole [country. 16760. But you must take the places where fchep foreigners mostly inhabit?-—I think not. I think the- fairest system would be to take the whole number of foreigners and the whole number of natives. (Chairman.) We wish to know both. If there is & great increase in one locality where the people are it is- a very important fact. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Take the population in Lon- don, the proportion of foreigners in the Census is 2*98, and the proportion of foreigners charged is from 15 to> 25 per cent. (Chairman.) But, taking the cases of obstructions in the streets by oostermongers, and so on, they are offences. 16761. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I am talking of the> Sessions, where they are more serious. I am not talking; of police offences ?—There is one more point I should like to mention, and that is I do not agree wTith Mr. N. S. Joseph's figures of the comparative number of deaths- under the age of one year among foreigners and natives. The figures are found in one of a series of articles appearing in the " Daily Graphic''; they are apparently taken from the Annual Summary of the Registrar- General, and I have copied them out. They apparently show that wherever there hasi been an increase in the- proportion of foreigners, the proportion of deaths under one year is very greatly decreased. It was rather a. startling statement that Mr. Joseph made. 16762. We have had this so strongly before with regard to the small mortality, but Mr. Joseph's state- ment seemed to be quite different ?—He has got no basis- It is not compared to any number of births. 16763. (Chairman-) Does not his statement compare the number of infantile births with the deaths above five years also?—Yes. Mr. Joseph's figures, as to the comparative number of deaths among foreigners are not, sustained, but if you compare it with the number of births it will be found to work out much less than* the natives. He simply said there were many more- deaths under one year among foreigners than there are above one year, but he omitted to consider that a large number of this number arrive with young children. It is not a fair comparison. 16764. He is too vague?—We have not got a normal population, and we are fed from abroad. 16765. (Sir Kenelm IHgby.) It depends very much ora what the longevity is over ?—Quite so. Sir Samuel Montagu, Bart., called; find Examines Sir S. 16766. \Lord Boihschild.) You represented White- Montagu, chapel in Parliament for 15 years ?—I did. Birt. 16767. And you have worked in the East of London for nhe greater portion of your life?—That is so. 16768. You have been associated with various charities and charitable objects in the East End of London, which it is perhaps unnecessary to go through. But lately you have founded, I think, or are about to found, a new charitable association, called the Jewish Dispersion Committee ?—That is so. 16769. The object of that committee is to withdraw as many people from Stepney as you can, and fix them in other parts of the United Kingdom?'—Yes. 16770. I think the Commission would like to know something with regard to that committee ? 16771. (Chairman.) I think we ought to have the fact that Sir Samuel Montagu is president of the Federation of Synagogues, which represent about 24,000 persons in the East End of London?:—-Yes, that is so. 16772. (Lord Bothschild.) Perhaps you would explain, first of all, your object in amalgamating these small synagogues, and then go on with the description of the Dispersion Committee?—In 1888 I found there were different isolated minor synagogues in the East End of London which were disposed rather to quarrel among themselves, and I formed the idea of amalgamating them together—quite a voluntary association—for their general benefit. The chief object was to get rid of the insanitary places of worship, and to amalgamate two or three small ones together, and have a suitable building. We have succeeded very well in that respect. At the present time we have 39 synagogues, in the Federation, and the number of male seat holders is 4,391, repre- senting as you say about 24,000. 16773. (Chairman.) Within wha; nrea do these syna- gogues come ?—They are chiefly located in East London r but we have some outlying synagogues where our work- ing classes have migrated. We cater, if I may call it,, for the working classes among Jews. 16774. Does it include Stepney, and what we call the* alien districts ?—Yes, they are chiefly located in White - chapel and Stepney, and Mile End, and 'St. George's,, but we have also one in Notting Hill. 16775. I want to get the alien district ?—But the same people migrate to Notting Hill and to Fimsbury Park and Stoke Newington, and such places, where they require seats in places of worship. That is the same, qase, exactly. Then in May of last year we had a large conference with delegates of many of the provincial con- gregations with the object of distributing, so far as we could, the working class Jews, particularly foreign. Jews, those who could speak English and knew a trade ; and we have commenced operations very recently. 16776. Who held that conference ?—It was the Federa^ tion. I was president of that association called the Jewish Congregational Union, of which the Dispersion Committee constitutes one part. There were about. 42 or 43 provincial congregations, represented accord- ing to their magnitude', and we had a large conference,, and they all seemed to agree that they should not act,, as hitherto, in rather a selfish way, but that they should endeavour to settle these people where they could find better employment, particularly in the small congre- gations. We avoided Manchester, Liverpool, Birming- ham, and Leeds, .and we located them in small places- like Chatham, Reading, Blackburn, Dover, and I see there is one at Leeds. 16777. This is a very important point. Where do you begin to disperse from ?—From London.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 609 , 16778. Do you begin to disperse from the ship's side, or do you wait until the aliens are located in Stepney <$r elsewhere ?—We take those who have been here some • little, time, and who know English. It is no use sending to,the country men who cannot make themselves under- stood. We have nothing, to do with what they call the fresh arrivals or greeners. 16779. You begin when you have got a man who can ^safely go on his own feet, so to speak, to a different place?—Yes. 16780. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Would that be after a year or so, or two years 1—After a year or two, after he c-an ja&ake himself understood. We give him nothing. We lend money without interest to provide for his going, r We, send the head of the family first, and if he can see " •his way, his family follow, and we give him a certain .amount, or lend him a certain amount of money, to be Repaid—£20, 30, or £10 .as the case may be, which is Repaid without any interest. We also provide that if the man does not find a place of work, we can pay 's3or his. return to London—that, is, we send the head of /the family,, and if he can find a situation he finds one. "For a short time we have been at work we have been fairly successful. 16781. (Lord Rpthschild.) Would it be. right to say that you have not attempted very much with your '-Dispersion Committee, because you were afraid that while this Commission was sitting it might be thrown in your teeth that you were offering another induce- ment?—I do not think it was so much that. We are waiting really to see whether legislation will bring forward increased powers to prevent overcrowding. "Then our organisation is ready to take those who are excluded from dwellings, and they would be very glad ■to be taken. At present the foreign Jews are rather ' inclined to stay in London. 16782. (Chairman.) Do you find, when you go to these persons whom you have described, and seek to cause "them to migrate into different districts, that they are willing or unwilling to go ?—We communicate with these •; 39 various synagogues. It easily gets about that we can lend the money to go to the provinces, and they apply ^voluntarily. This morning we got an application from 'Chester. We pass it on to somebody who knows about •tailors, and they, would: ask about it. There is a certain Teluctance, naturally, on the part of those who are -getting fair wage's in London, to change. 16785. What is the inducement for the man in London, ; who hats, got his relations and friends here, to* go to Dover, for instance?—Because he may 'be out of work, although a good workman or a f air workman; and then "he believes that he can live cheaper and get better surroundings. 16784. Supposing the laws with regard to< overcrowd- ing were enforced more strictly, and the consequence was that people felt great difficulties in Stepney, for in- stance,, ,in finding house accommodation, would that assist you in prevailing on them to go to Dover?—Im- mensely. In fact, that is the raison &etre of our exist- ence. We are preparing for the possibility of 'having to distribute a good many. 16785. You look forward in hope to our efforts?— Tee. 16786. (Lord Rothschild.) I believe you have sent, a cer- tain number to Reading ?—We have sent some to Read- ings 16787. -When you send them to' Reading, I think there i- a Jewish community there?—We send only where therein ah Jewish community, and it is assisting already existing migration, 16788.. What work is there for them at Reading ?— Pre^sers--tha.t : is, tailors—boot lasters, cap makers. Chiefly tailors. , 1^789. Would it be fair to say that, you send them to pi-aces where the market is short of labour?—We only •send them where we have applications for workmen. : 16790. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) From employers ?—Yes. '16791. (.Chairman,) I suppose the reason is that, having those applications from employers, you could oifer yoiir workmen employment when they get there? —Certainly. We send nobody without the consent of the congregations in these small places; therefore, in: v ^tead of being received with disfavour, they are already sure of their welcome. At Leicester there was a large i JiOT of tailors which had their clothing made in London, n #nd they, desired very much to have it made in Leicester, . in r$$ler,,they could supervise the we rk. We have * sent' about 10 families already. (51 1L 23 Mar. 1903. 16792. Do you enter at all into the question of the ^Sir S. wages they receive when they get there?—If they.com- Montagu, plain about the wages we rather expostulate with the oBart. employer. 16793. Do you make any arrangement for them in ad- vance, and say, " If we send you any workmen, you are to pay them 25s. or 30s. a week3 and so on?—Yes, in towns where we have known the code of wages. They would be the usual trades union wages. 16794. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They get the trades: union wages?—Oh, yes. 16795. (Lord Rothschild.) You have visited various parts of the Continent ?—Oh, yes. 16796. And having visited these parts of the Con- tinent, you can describe accurately the state of the Jews in Austria and Russia., Poland and Roumania, who come here, and you have also been to Canada, and have seen their improved condition when they arrived there ?—• Yes. I would like to say, shortly, that my first experi- ence was in 1882, when I went for the Mansion House Committee with a friend, a doctor. We went to Lem- berg. That was in the height of the persecution, when the Jews were driven, as it were, across the frontier, mostly stripped of their clothing, to find whether they had any roubles about them. There were 5,000 Jews collected at the frontier town, and they were being sup- ported at about 2s. a. week each. At Lemberg, about 20 miles from Brodv, we arranged a local committee of the leading Jews there, who examined these refugees to. see whether they were really workmen, as they described themselves. Those who were agriculturists we sent generally to Winnipeg. We distributed them over to America direct, giving them orders to receive little money, say £5, when they arrived there, and to those who had no money we paid their passages. I was astonished to find how many had money, and how truthful they were when giving up their money to our care to be paid out to them in America. 16797. (Chairman.) Do you recollect the case of an Englishman, named Levenstein, in 1882 or 1883, with regard to whom we got into trouble with the Russian Government ?—Yes, I do ; he went to St. Petersburg. 16798. He was an English subject, and we took up the matter for shim?—Yes. I went to Brody and saw these people. They were, of course, half-starved, but they were very quiet and orderly, and they lined the street. There was a majority of Jewish people in the town. One man, a cavalry soldier, a Hussar, deserted and fled over the frontier, because he was ordered to. flog his own relatives. The people kept the man, but they sent the horse back to Russia over the frontier. I saw the man and verified his statement. They were very badly treated then in Russia, and the Governor of Galicia allowed them to remain a considerable time longer than the regulations allowed, so that we should have time to send them away to America. I think about 20,000 must have been sent in that way direct from Lemberg. 16799. There was a Mansion House Committee formed to aid in sending them, I think ?—There was a meeting a.t the Mansion House at the time of the persecution condemning Russian action against the Jews, and a fund was collected of about £200,000. To administer this fund, I was willing to go over and visit the different towns and dissuade them from coming to this country, and advise them that they should go direct to the United States or Canada.. I visited most of the Jewish towns. 16800. (Lord Rothschild.) You went to. America and Canada afterwards?—That was in 1884, in the Yine Land Colony, near Philadelphia. One of the men rushed forward and said, "Do not you remember send- ing me from Lemberg two years ago ?" I said, "Well, I cannot remember yo.us but I daresay it is true." He said, " Come and see my Indian corn, and you must have a melon." He was doing very well in the colony, and was growing fruits, and such like. 16801. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do they go much into agriculture in America?—In South America, in the Ar- gentine, Baron Hirsch's colonies, and in one or two other colonies, the young men that I saw especially seemed stalwart and good strong fellows. 16802,. (Lord Rothschild.) You are well acquainted with .the foreign, Jews in the East End of London, and you wish to give your account of them?—During the last 50 years I have been constantly in East London, and I have mixed with them in their meetings, and their mournings, and their pleasures'; I think I know as ir uch p.bcut them as most people. 4 B610 kOYAL commission on alien immigration : Sir S. Montaqu, Bart. 23 Mar. 1903. 16803. Do you consider them orderly and peaceable ?— Certainly. I have never had any trouble with them. 16804. And both grateful and loyal to this country?— Certainly. 16805. Do you consider them thrifty?—I do, every- body knows that. 16806. Do they save at all ?—I think they do; they are very fond of good food, and good eating, but I thins they manage to save money and to get on. There are many Jews from Whitechapel who have got on in the world, and are living in comfortable positions. 16807. Do you consider them clpan?—I consider their bodily cleanliness is above the average. 16808. There is -a time in the year, is not there, when they thoroughly clean their houses 'and lodgings in order to get rid of the smallest crumbs of leavened bread for the Passover, as an important religious duty?—Yes, I have seen them with, the furniture turned out of their little dwellings into the corridors and streets, and they will scrub what appears to be really clean, in order to get rid of any crumbs ; they are bound to do that. 16809. It is -supposed that this thorough cleansing and disinfecting, which is said to be sometimes dangerous so far* as fire is concerned, destroy the germs of disease ? —They say that soap and water is a good preventive of disease. I am not a .medical man, but I should think that was so. 16810. In Whitechapel there are six religious bath houses, which are used 10 or 12 times a, year by Jews, is not that so?—There are six Jewish bath houses for total immersion, which are used especially for married women monthly, and by men before the hish festivals, and then, of course, there are the ordinary swimming baths connected with the Jewish working men's clubs. They are very proficient in swimming, and they patronise largely the ordinary swimming baths. Then there is a Russian vapour bath established by Jews and frequented by Jews. 16811. And the Turkish Baths in Whitechapel are crowded every Friday with Jews ?—I think those a/re the religions baths, but I cannot speak positively. 16812. I think it has been represented here tha.t there is rather a plethora, of Jewish butchers in some quarters of the East End of London. As you are Chairman of 'the Schecita, or Slaughtering Board, will you give some explanation to the Commission with regard to that subject?—There is necessarily a large number, because Jews must go to their own butchers on account of the Mosaic laws with regard to the slaying and the purity of the meat. There are about 180 Jewish butchers in the East End of London, and they mainly supply the East End Jews. I have a return here by our investigat- ing officer. 16813. Before you go to the question of Jewish butchers, you have all the m^at slaughtered under your inspection before it reaches these butchers ?—Yes ; there are the carcase butchers and the retail butchers ; the! carcase butchers are mainly Christians, and they have Jewish supervision. All the quarters of the be°f and the large, portions of meat are sealed, so that the retail butchers would know that the beast was killed accord- ing to Mosaic law. , 1,6814. You mark it with a, seal, in whkh the word " Kosher " or " Clean " is put on ?—That is it. A lead seal is fastened on the meat ; but where there is a diffi- culty in having a Jewish butcher they have frequently a Christian butcher with, a Jewish supervisor in the place, but that would not apply to the East End, whe^e there are plenty willing to act as butchers, and so avoid the expense. 16815. You would not say in any district there was a superfluity of Jewish retail butchers, as has been alleged here?—We have a Licensing Committee, and thev do not license any more butchers in the congested districts, but they help them to go to outside districts. 16816. (Chairman.) That is with reference to the slaughterhouses, is it not?—-No; it refers to the retail butchers. 16817. Who licenses a retail butcher ?—The Board of which I am Chairman; the ecclesiastical authorities com- bine with the Slaughtering Board, of which I have been President for the last 20 or 30 years. ^ 16818. (Lord Rothschild.) Could you give the Commis- sion some idea a® to the amount of meat in the place rl ere you distribute ?—T! e consumption for East Lon- don alone—that is, there are two or three butchers in the East End of London who supply the West End as* well as the East, but the main number provide for the- East London Jews. The poultry is about 11,000 weekly:. I have got here a summary of the oxen and sheep, and) such like. There are 190,4001bs. of beef. 16819. In a year ?—I think that is 26 weeks. Them there are 10,8801bs. of mutton. 16820. (Chairman.) That is very small for 186 butchers ?—There must be a figure left out. I will read the return. It says here : " Return of sheep and oxen slaughtered (Kosher) for a period of 26 weeks, com- mencing June 7th, 1901, and terminating November 29th, 1901." These are beasts. Oxen 20,232, average 777 weekly; calves 4,931, average 189 weekly; sheep 18,659, average 717 sheep weekly. Total quantity of poultry, 327,980. Then we get for the 26 weeks com- mencing: December 6th, 1901, and terminating May 30th, 1902: Oxen 19.348, or 744 weekly; calves 6,097, or 234^ weekly; sheep 17,477, or 672 weekly. Poultry 304,589, or 11,731 weekly. Of course, there is more consumed at great festivals, and it depends in which half-year the great festivals are. 16821. You mentioned the number of butchers as- about 180?—Between 170 and 180 T think there are. 16822. In what district is that?—That is in the East End of London. That is comprising the district east of the Bank of England and as far as Mile End. 16823. Do they sell meat only killed according to> your rites ?—Only. 16824. No Christian meat ?—They may sell to Chris- tians, but it must be killed according to the Jewish rites. If an animal is found diseased or in any way wrong it does not come to their hands. It is rejected at the slaughterhouse. 16825. (Lord Rothschild.) Am I right iri assuming that you have given these figures as evidence of the standard of living?—As far as food goes, I think the Jews are above the average. It is considered their duty to have three square meals on the Sabbath if they can'afford it. That is considered the proper accompaniment of their day of rest. 16826. Would you say that the vast amount of immi- grants come here in order to leave the country, and that their object in coming here is either to go on immedi- ately or in a short time to British Colonies ?—I think the majority come here as the first stage. Of course,, those who stop here intend to remain here. Those who intend to remain in this country have no object in going, back to their own country. They may go eventually for- ward to the Colonies. 16827. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Or to America?—Or to America. 16828. (Lord Rothschild.) Your belief is that the alien Jewish question is puiely a local one?—I think in every large town that I have visited there is always a Jewish quarter, and I recollect that in Jerusalem itself, where I have been, there is a Jewish quarter. They naturally congregate themselves where they are understood, and I do not think there is any real difficulty except in White- chapel and St. George's. Even Mile End I do not think is overcrowded with Jews. They are spreading south- ward and northward—northward especially. 16829. Yon are of opinion that the alien immigrant has introduced into this country new manufactures, such as cheap clothing, and has abolished the second-han-1 clothes trade?—That is so, and also manufacture the cheap furniture, such as cabinet-making. 16830. With regard to the clothing trade, was not the first introducer of clothing into this country a firm of Moses ?—I think Moses and Sons, of the Minories. 16831. They were the first introducers of cheap cloth- ing?—In the retail trade, yes. 16832. Do you know from your knowledge of business that the introduction of these trades has created a large export trade in them ?—That is so. 16833. (Chairman.) I am struck by your phrase e< in- troducers of .cheap clothing." Was that in substitution of the second-hand clothes trade ?—I think the second- hand clothes trade, as far as England itself goes is. almost nil. ' 16834. Now ?—Now. They send second-hand clothing to semi-barbarous countries, such as Africa, and so on. 16835. Did it exist before. Moses and Sons' trade com- menced ?—Yes, always.f. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 611 16836. (Sir Kenehn Digby.) I suppose it is as easy to dispose of second-hand clothes now as ever it was?— "When we were at the height of the emigration to the States we had an offer from a- firm in London. There were a lot of Jews turned into. Hamburg without •clothing, and it turned out they wanted boots, but this firm offered to sell us., if we liked, some thousands of -•suits, coat and waistcoat and trousers, well cleansed, second hand, for 3s. 6d. each, so that shows to what Tt is;a; very long frontier, and51 do not think they ran ^ keep them out. 1 1 , : 16(869. But you know the immigration there does go on o . 16880. 'Have1 you come to aiiy conclusion as to' whether any legislation is possible with a. view of keeping out:; what we may term the undesirable alien B It is an undefined term at present, but supposing it was agreed that certain classes \yere undesirables, would you deem it right and proper for that legislation to take place ?—- I think that we might very properly, and advantageously keep out those who are physically or mentally disquali- fied, and possibly anarchists, with great, •precaution, but " undesirable " is such a vague term/A man who appears undesirable to-day, in a month or two might appear to» be very desirable. I would not go so far as that. 16881/But. placing your own definition on the term " undesirable," you would to that extent be in favour of' exclusion ?—Only if physically or mentally disabled. . 16882. To that extent?—Yes. 16883. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Supposing there was a. ..law to that effect; would there have been many wh^ wtraid have, been excluded ?—No, there--are too raa,n? ports, and the passage is too rapid, i think it would* cost more than would support all the people if th^r came in. , . 16884. (Mr. Vallancev) Have you; formed a defiuik* opinion as to the possible results of this latest American-, legislation ?—I do not think it will have much effect. 16885. Would not the linguistic test, if applied rigidly, have any effect?—-I do not think it will have- much. 16886. (Chairman.) Are. you speaking of the very- recent Act?—Yes, they have got it in South Africa. 16887. Have you seen the new Act ?—I have not read the new Act, but I have (heard about it. 16888. It is very different from the other ?—Yes, but I should say there is a point about Yiddish being a, European language, which is now being disputed im Cape Colony, and it should not prevent the Jews- going in. 16889. (Mr. Vallance.) Would not that have the re- verse effect, if the Yiddish language is not recognised im America as a European language? Would it not have the effect of sending large quantities here?—It can be- nothing else but a European language. 16890. But it is not recognised as such ?—We hope the colonies will be more reasonable. In America these- laws are not very carefully administered, and I think by way of Canada that they will get as many in a$> before. There will not be a great diminution. 16891. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to the- . federated synagogues, you say there are 39?—Yes. 16892.. How many are there besides that are not , federated?—There are those that naturally belong to- the United Synagogue. That is rather a minimum; quantity; In the East of London the United Syna- gogues have got about four; they have got one in Stoke* Newington and Dalston, and other outlying synagogues- belonging to the United Synagogue—Stoke Newington, North London, Dalston, New Dalston, and in the East. End; they have got the Great 'Synagogue, the New Synagogue, the Hambro' Synagogue, and so on. They have altogether 10 working class synagogues. 16893. They are all outside your federation?—There- are some not yet joined. Roughly, I should estimate there may be 15 or 20. 16894. Besides the 39 ?—We reject those who have mot 50 members, and we reject them if they are in in- sanitary or. unsafe places of worship. , 16895. With regard to this dispersion. The necessity for dispersion implies considerable congestion?—-Not necessarily. A man may like to improve his condition under any circumstances. 16896. But your object in dispersing these people is in order to remove the congestion already existing,, or to mitigate it ?—And also to benefit the poor people them- selves. 16897. To get them. into better* condition?—Into better surroundings, and to Anglicise them quicker, and •to improye them t generally. . 16898. Btit] as^you move persons out,- say, for instance, these 46 families that you have dealt with already, more people are coming in ?—^Not of the kind that we deal with. • .............■" " 16899.. They are somewhat lower in the social stratum, I suppose ?—No, but. they are ignorant of English. 16900. That is the difference between them?—The only difference that I know of, and perhaps the practiceMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 613 of the English forms of 'their trade:. A man may be a good workman in hits own country. 16901. But, irrespective of capacity, with regard to numbers, as you tap off some from one side, others are coming in from the other side, are they not ?—They do not come, in because we send them out. 16902. No, but they are coming whether you send them out or not?—If they are able to get into White- chapel, of course. If overcrowding were prevented they would have to seek in the suburbs or in the provinces, places where they could live. 16903. My point is that what you do in relieving, the pressure, or, removing people from the East End, is dis- counted by the people who are arriving in the River Thames week by week ?—It would be so unless we did our dispersion fairly early. I think a good many come over because they iea.r the door may be closed. 16904. Do you think it would be impossible to dea! with the peopJe on their arrival at tntV ship's side or the quay side more ? Has that ever 'been contem- plated?—That is done with regard to 'the Jews' Tem- porary Shelter. They are taken care of and sifted. 16905.-But, from there, before they go into the con- gested districts, could they be dealt with, do you'think? —I do not think so. I think it would be very difficult. x 16906. You could not. plant them out then?—I think they mainly try to escape from Russia without the legal passport. I do not think they could go to any agency and expose themselves to be detained and per- haps imprisoned. . 16907. You are .talking more of your dispersion policy, and getting rid of them from the congested districts ?—- It would be impossible for us to send men- who had not some knowledge of English, unless we taught them English in Russia, which would be a very difficult enter- prise. 16908. So,that when they come in, those who do not go on .out of this country, percolate into the East End and neighbourhood, to start with P-r-There are a .good manyi who come now. Since. , we. havehad a synagogue in Notting Hill we have had a good many, families, abouJt 600 or 800 families. 16909. Do. they go straight there from the ship's side, so to speak ?—If they have relatives or friends. 16910. So there is a foreign colony growing up there ? —We have never heard of any objection. 16911. I do not say you have?—It is growing there. There are large tailoring establishments who like to have their workmen near them, the Westbourne Grove people, and such-like. 16912. So that, in that event, you could get them away from the ship's side, so to speak, or from the shelter, direct out of the East End ?—It would be very difficult, because these people come without our know- ledge; !aiid without our knowing whether they would be received, say, at Notting Hill, or Soho, or Finsbury Park, or anywhere there. 16913. But if they have got relatives there they would be ?—They would go on their own account. 16914. With regard to; what you told us about the condition of these people "in the- East. End, I suppose, in addition to all this that you speak of, there is a considerable number of very poor people among them ? —Of course, there are a' great many poor people, but they are very soon able, to make a living.-. I presided at a very large meeting of. strikers in the tailoring trade>:who were all. Jews, and they.seemed to fee de- cently clad and well-fed people. You seldom see squalor among them—poverty, yes ; but-not rags or bare feet; and there has been no case that I have heard of of dying fijom starvation among the Jews. . 16915. Among this large mass of people in the East End J there is a considerable number, of people of the undesirable character, I assume, is there not ?—Of course, there are some. In every other race there is a certain proportion. ... 16916. With regard to those that are sent back to their* o^n.' country—the. repatriated cases^there is a considerable, number of them every year. . Would you think it an .advantage to keep those: people out ?-^-l think, they: generally, go of their own.. desire. They find Ihiey. cannot rn^ke a living, and. they think they would, do fetter to go back. 16917. Do not you think it would' be better if 'they did not • cornel—Certainly j^ithey come >in mi stake j and they see it, and go away again, with some assistance. 16918. So there is not unlimited opportunity for Sir S. them in this country?—I do not think they come here Montagu, with that object. I think they go to places that our B&rt- working classes emigrate to. They are too good judges ever to go to a place where the inhabitants themselves ' are in excess of the supply of work. 16919. But still, they do come very largely, do they not ?—They come mainly with the object of going fur- ther. 16920. But I am referring to those who come, and have to be sent back, or who wish to go back ?—-That is not a large number, and they are always failures. They are people who have been misled, probably,, and they are glad to get back, though why they should want to go back to Russia I caniiot understand. 16921. With regard to the improvements in the streets that you told us of—Thrawl Street, and so on— that is rather an improvement that has been going on all over London, is it not ?—I think it has been expe- dited. One of the inspectors of police has assured me*. it was mainly through the Jewish aliens that the semi- criminal -class have been dispersed from Whitechapeh: I am speaking only of Whitechapel. They are very. peaceable, orderly people. 16922. These people of bad character who have been displaced have not been extirpated, but they have been moved on somewhere else, I suppose?—-Yes ; but the argument is that they could be better dealt with if they did not aggregate together. - 16923. There are cases of people of an immoral and;! bad character among the newcomers, too, are there* not?—I am afraid so . 16924. Do you know of three cases lately in a street called Ely Terrace, in Stepney, where there were three disorderly houses raided, all at one time ?—I am afraid that is mainly the result of overcrowding. 16925. But these were regular disorderly houses* and' the people were fined £40 or £50, so they have*, not extirpated these things altogether?—-I am. talking, rather of the active criminal classes, such as thieves, ' and burglars, and such-like. 16926. All the details you have given with regard' to the butchers, and so on, and schools, and baths, and other details, point to a very large population in this part of London ?—Yes ; I should think two-thirds, . at least, of the Jews of London are in the East End —quite that. 16927. People, whether good or bad, or desirable or undesirable, whatever we may say about them, they are people mostly with foreign habits of life?—Yes, that• is so; efforts are made by outlying synagogues,., and also by factories moving to the suburbs, to dis- perse them. - 16928. With regard to these butchers, do the Christian people remaining there deal with the Jewish.. butchers ?—I should think tfiey did, in some degree. 16929. They get better meat, do they not, from the- Jewish butchers ?—It is less likely to be contaminated., by disease, but I do not think it is of the very best. quality. It is foreign-grown meat, although it is very wholesome. 16930. So that part of that consumption you have mentioned is by the Christian people ?—I think very slight. • 5 16931. I know people who do deal preferably with Jewish butchers, because they think' it is a better class of meat ?—They would be hardly important enough to notice. I do not suppose they would be 1 per cent. 16932. With regard to the people that go over to> Canada, and so on, when were you there ?—In 1884. 16933. You have not been there since 1—No ; I am chairman of the Russo-Jewish Committee, and we have- property near Winnipeg. 16934. Have you heard of the: condition of the people in New York ?—I have seen accounts in the: newspapers r to the effect that the Bowery, as it is called—the Jewish quarter—is a very congested district. 16935. Do those people do well over there ?—I must say there is . a similar society, and a very successful one, for dispersion,in America, in New York, and several of the seaports. 16936. But with regard to the people in the Ghetto of New York, what is their condition ?—I cannot speak614 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Sir S. from my own knowledge. I should think that they Montaguwould manage to get a living. There is plenty ol Bart. room. 23 Mar/-1903. 16937. Would you say they have improved in the —~— same way as the people here are said to improve and prosper?-—I think so. I have no absolute knowledge, but I should fancy the Polish Jew is a very, very frugal, hard-working, and sober man; and I think if a workman is sober he can get on anywhere. 16938. Have you seen the reports of the United Hebrew Charities in New York?—Not recently. 16939. Do you know whether the American Jews are opposed t«* the immigration of their own people from Europe?—las. That is a very selfish policy. 16940. But they are opposed to it ?—Yes, because it is the Jews who mainly suffer by the arrival of these foreigners—the Jews and the Jewish trades. They are very selfish—-more selfish, I fancy, than we are. 16941. I read, at page 15 of the Report of the Indus- trial Commission held in America : " The American Jews have always discouraged immigration of European Jews, and are in full accord with the laws to prevent the immigration of paupers and diseased persons, and /all who,are unfit to enjoy the franchise." "Would you ssay that was a desirable policy to adopt here?—I do - mot think it is true. 16942. How do you mean not true?—I think there -rare several distinguished Jews in America who have protected and favoured the welfare of their poor co- religionists. It was only after the first few years that some of them turned against them. 16943. In the Ulnited Hebrew Charities' Report for • "October, 1901, I see they say: " No matter how -earnestly we labour to care for the Jewish poor already in our city, our burdens are being constantly increased by the thousands who come from Europe every year to settle in our midst. It is worth noting, in passing, that, comparatively speaking, few of these newly- arrived emigrants come to us for assistance until after they have been in New York for a year or two. Either "they have sufficient means of their own to bring them to America and to support them for a period after arrival, or they have been sent for by relatives who are able to give them assistance for some time. But the evil conditions of the houses and the deteriorating influences of the sweat shops of the great Ghetto soon work havoc among these people, and after an interval of two or three years they come to us in numbers for relief." That points to when the congestion reaches ■ a certain point in these places, that the condition of these people does not improve?—I do not think the leaders among, the Jews in the States, with two or J three exceptions, do their duty. I think they take ;a selfish view of the situation, and they dread the people coming to them for relief. 16944. But they do< give an enormous amount of relief, do not they ?—I do not think they do—not in proportion to their wealth. I was very disappointed with the . leading Jews when I was in the States. 16945. How long ago was that?—In 1884, but it was In the height of the persecution. 16046. But the immigration had not reached anything fiike the pitch it has now?—I think there were large numbers at that time*, because they went without aoiy hindrance. 1693-7. There is another quotation from the same re- :|)ort*. "A condition of chronic poverty is developing in the Jewish community of New York that is appalling in Sits immensity. Forty-five per cent, of our applicants, u representing between 20,000 and 25,000 human beings, have been in the United States over five yeans ; have | 'been given the opportunities for economic and industrial improvement which this country affords, yet, notwith- : standing all this, have not managed toi reach a position -of economic independence." So that there immigration . seems to be overdone P—There is quite a different condi- tion of things in the United States. The leading Jews '.are not so- Jewish as to be enabled to get the confidence of these people, who like to arrange their own t affairs in their own way, and not in the very civilised fashion that the leading Jews want them-to adopt. I do not think the Russian Pole would have confidence in the leading Jews in America, with on© or two exceptions, and they would not take their, advice, because they see that they are not mindful of Jewish observances to which they § accustomed. 16948. I do not see how that, quite touches on my point, which is that in spite of the field in America being a vastly larger one and more extensive in every way than it is in England for employment—that is so, is it not?—>Yes, certainly. 16949. My point is that in spite of the opportunities, as the report says, for economic and industrial improve- ment, enormous numbers of them remain in a very poor condition there ?—I think that there are conditions in the way of keeping their religion and improving their position in America which do not exist here. 16950. What difficulties are placed in their way about their religion ?—About working on their Sabbath. 16951. Are they prevented working on their Sabbath? —No, Sabbath work is very prevalent, and they cannot get the confidence of the new arrivals. 16952. But their working on the Sabbath would not prevent their getting on in the world and making money, and getting out of this condition of poverty which is described ?—It is a great obstacle. They lose practically two days a week. 16953. If they work on the Sabbath ?—If they do not work. That is what I say, that the new arrivals would object to work on Saturday, and therefore they find obstacles in their way. 16954. But these same conditions apply here?—No, not to that degree. 16955. They do work here?—They have opportunities of getting employment without working on Saturday. They are much greater than the opportunities they have in the States. 16956. But there is this great congestion and extreme poverty which is pointed to throughout these reports of 1901. The report goes on at page 30: " The horrible congestion in which so many of our co-religionists live, the squalor and filth, the lack of air and sunlight, the absence frequently of even the most common decencies, are too well known to require repetition at this writing, All these conditions are there, taken together with the increased severity of the American law, and I ask you whether they do not all point in your opinion to an increase of immigration into this country ?—No, I do not say that. There is always immigration. If it does not go through New York it goes in other directions. Take that congregation of 200 or 300 in Notting Hill. Thirty families have gone to South Africa in the last few weeks'. They are moving in other directions. If they are impeded in one direction they try and find other places where they are not impeded. 16957. If there are only a few places open to them, and England is one of them, would it not point to an increased number coming here ? Is not that the probable result of these things that I have described?—I have noticed whenever there is great prosperity in th© States there is an enormous migration of Jews as well as others to the States, and if th© condition of things in America is not attractive they simply do not go-. 16958. Then the pressure driving them out from Europe would not send them here if they could not go to America ?—The persecution is not active any more in Russia, and therefore, although they are in a bad condi- tion and legally restricted and their life is burdensome, still they oould exist unless they have the attraction of a good opening, and it is not at all necessary that they should emigrate unless by emigrating; they see their way clearly to a fair future, so that it might stop, as it has done frequently, the outcry in America without, neces- sarily sending them to thus country. 16959. Then with regard to the Roumanian Jews in Canada, what yon saw of them was a good many years ago ?—I have no personal knowledge at all; it is only what I hear. I know nothing about them. I have seen the Roumanian Jews here, and they , seem men of good physique. 16960. That is certainly so. But with regard to their doing well in Canada, I see that the report says : " Baron Hirseh's Society had sent word to America not to send them/'—that is to say, the destitute Jews—" to Canada." "The Roumanian Jews, who came over two yearsi ago, many of whom are still in Canada, are a burden on that society; and only at their last meeting as many as 92 destitute Jews, who have been destitute since the 1st January in Montreal, were at that meeting of the society to receive their alms and support, being unable to car© for themselves." So that the outlet there does not seem to be as good as it was ?—A charity like BaronMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 635 Hirsch's would keep people within reach of its assistance, I dare say. 16961. With regard to the effect of restriction, I think you said it had not had any real important effect in America in keeping people out ?—I think not; a very small percentage has been kept out. 16962. Do not you agree that the fact of a law exist- ing deters people from starting?—I think that the long passage and the fare being important might prevent some of them risking sending doubtful emigrants to the States. I think that,must be in some degree the effect. 16963. Do not you agree that any responsibility placed upon the shippers as to the quality and class of people th*y brin^ nas a deterrent effect on the shippers in bringing them to a country ?—I think so>; it might have that effect, but with regard to this country there are so many means of * arrival, and the distance is so short, that I doubt very much whether the injury caused to shipping generally would not be very great. 16964. This immigration traffic is confined really, as a matter of practice, to certain well-defined lines coming %o certain ports?—It might be diverted. 16965. But diversion would mean the movement of plant and upsetting the arrangements at immense cost. One doubts whether that really would take place?—It would affect British subjects who might have a- foreign appearance, and so on. You would put hindrances in the wav of traffic generally, which I think would be very undesirable. I think compared with France, which has gob over a million aliens, chiefly Italians, we have not got a. quarter of a million. 16966. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where do you get those figures ?—I have seen them published. I think you will find they are correct. I have seen it estimated that there are about a million Italians in France. 16967. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You think these con- ditions of congestion and cramping these people into one district in. one town has bad results ?—I think it is the same almost in any town; there is a Jewish quarter, and they crowd into it, where they would be better off if they were to spread out; they were obliged to be in the Ghetto in Rome, and when the Ghetto gates were taken down and they were allowed to dwell in any part of Rome they did not go. 16968. That is an economic factor ?—Yes, there must be some incentive for going, and the law against over- crowding would give the necessary impetus, I think. 16969. To relieve the congestion ?—Yes. 16970. You would say the congestion in itself was bad?—Yes, for anybody bound to live five or six in a room it must be dreadful. 16971. With regard to all you have said pointing to the presence of a large population with foreign habits, whether they are good or bad it does not matter, do you not think it is understandable that: there should be a bitterness of feeling and resentment among the native population?—That is a thing I have never found, in all the 50 years I have known the East End. I have found very little of what you may term religious or even racial enmity. There has been, I think, quite as much feeling as regards the Irish as regards the Jews, or perhaps more. The feeling against the Irish in Whitechapel has been much stronger, as a rule, than that towards the Jews. 16972. You do not think the arrival of a large foreign population, and the gradual displacement of the native population does cause bitterness of feeling?— I think it is amonig publicans chiefly. 16973. You would say it was confined to publicans ? —No, I do not say it is confined, I. should say it was more severe among the publicans. 16974. I think the publicans are doing pretty well? —Not in the Jewish, quarter of Whitechapel. 16975. (Chairman.) I should like to supplement these figures, which are rather important. I am quoting from the Parliamentary paper dealing with the Census returns. Tthe total number of foreigners in the United Kingdom, according to the Census of 1891, was 219,000, as against 135,000 in 1881 and 114,000 in 1871. I have not yet got the numbers from the Census of 1901. There hag been a considerable increase?—Yes. 16976. The same paper says, "But in comparison with the total population of this country the fiumbers are small, quite insignificant, the above showing for 1891 only 5*8 foreigners in every 1,000 of the inhabitants ,-jr ^ of the United Kingdom. It may be noted for com- Montagu, parison that in the German Empire, according to tne Bart. Census of 1890, foreigners numbered 8*8 per 1,000, :- that is 8*8 as against our 5*8. Then in Austria proper, -3 Mar. 1903. according to the Census of the same year, they were 17'2 per 1,000, while in France the proportion, which in this country has been steadily rising at each successiv e Census, was in 1886 29*7 per 1,000, which I suppose would include' your Italians ?—Yes. 16977. In the United States of America it was very high. In 1880 it was 143, and in 1889 it had risen to 147 per 1,000?—Yes; you must not forget, my Lord, that there has been an increase generally in such people as German waiters at the big hotels- You see now con- stantly almost all German waiters at hotels in this country, and even in the provincial towns the whole staff is almost entirely composed of Germans ; that must show an increase. 16978. That is because nearly every hotel-keeper in Germany sends his son over here to learn to be a waiter?—Yes, and they are all reckoned among the aliens. 16979. We have returns among the Russians and Poles, and there is a considerable increase ?—There has been, no doubt. 16980. I have given you the figures as to* the numbei of foreigners in 1891, 1881, and 1871, and as regards 1901 the evidence we had from Mr. lViacleod was, " We have given a preliminary return, a statement as to the population of the whole kingdom, but we have not abstracted particulars as to foreigners for mora than something like half the population at present " ?—That is so, my Lord. 16981. I should like to see if you could help us a little more. What organisations have you at yo ur com- mand which could deal with foreigners upon their arrival in this country?—There is mainly the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter ; then there is the Conjoint Com- mittee of the Board of Guardians, and the Russo-Jewish Committee. Then there are emigration societies," and then there are the recent organisations for the disper- sion to the suburbs and to the provinces. 16982. Do any of these societies delegate people to. meet- the vessels upon their arrival here, say from. Bremen and Libau?—The Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, of which I am treasurer, meets every vessel, I think. 16983. Your object is only to benefit these people, and.. also to assist in what is going on in this country for their benefit?—Yes. 16984. I suppose your organisation would be willing.. to act in alliance with any State regulations that were made ?—Certainly. 16985. Could anything be done in this direction : Supposing, in the opinion of the local authorities, a district became so congested (take, for instance, St apney) that either additional aliens or additional natives ought not to be admitted within it, and especially if they came to the conclusion that the presence of the alien was objectionable, supposing it was decreed that persons . should not be permitted without permission to take up their abode within such a district, supposing a vessel arrived with 200 or 300 immigrants of the steerage class, what would happen if they were met, and it was, said, " Go where you will, you cannot go into Stepney " 1 —I think it would be only humane to have a sort of shelter for them for a little time till they could turn round. 16986. I am only shutting them out from Stepney I:- —That could be done outside of Stepney ; say, for in- stance, in the borough of Stepney. 16987. A district would be proclaimed by regulation or order ?—It could be arranged. It must be arranged, that they would be received and lodged and dealt with.. either by dispersion or location or repatriation. 16988. Necessity, of course, produces its results ; but you have got your 'humane organisation at work, which would assist the State. If Stepney is closed, surely you could have modified districts where the language would be taught. You can soon find people talking their language?—I forgot to mention that the Russo- Jewish fund pays some hundreds of pounds a year to have adult foreigners taught English at evening classes, and they are learning very quickly. 16989. That does not quite meet what I want to dealROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION WirJS. KBart. Mar/1903. with. They' arrive here on a Monday morning at 12 o'clock, -and they have to go somewhere. Your shelter will take them in for a short time'. Now we will assume that Stepney is closed. - Would you not find, as water finds its level by gravitation, some place for them to ' go to after a time?—I think it could not happen that they wotild:;b€> all destined to remain in this- country, and, therefore, at once those who are transmigrants would be directed to their destination, and that would be done at once. That would perhaps expedite matters. •Then the remainder we would try and place by location, and if it was possible- for them to return we should help them to go back. 16990. I am only talking now of what would happen if a district were closed by regulation. It would not ibe humane to tell these people, " Your condition is such sth&t you may "remain; but you cannot go to that place." LDo you think you could meet that?—I think in some ^degree, but I would rather there was some general law . -against overcrowding, because you see you could devise . some means by fining all, from the freeholder down- wards, and let him sihunt it on to his tenant just the . same as you would if his house was a disorderly house. ' The freeholder would be responsible in some degree to , >oause it to be altered. I think so. 16991. We have had before us vastly better than we can do for them, but it happens when there is a slackness of trade, and they can only get one or two days' work a week that the pressure comes upon them. 17006. Is the main incentive for them to go or to stay the comparative wages?—Yes, mainly. 17007. Are you hopeful that you will be able to do more in the future?—Oh, yes, we are only just start- ing. I have great confidence myself in this work. We are -not spending the money, unfortunately, that we have got. 17008. I gather from what you are doing, that you do recognise that the excess of alien population in the East, End of London is objectionable ?—In all respects it is objectionable, both for the people themselves, at all events, in these surroundings, and it is objection- able for the Jewish community to have to< contribute so much to their relief. If we could put them on their legs, and they could earn their living, it would be better. For instance, we had an application from Chester. If we sent a dozen families to Chester we should consider that we had done enough forChes'ter. We do not want to make ghettos or Jewish quarters in the provinces. 17009. Take the example you have given of sending • a dozen families to Chester. Can those people whom you so send speak English ?—Yes, certainly. We had an application for one this very morning. 17010. Do you send them the class of new arrivals?— No, none. 17011. Then your dispersion practice would not appl) to the alien who comes here seeking for an abode for the first time?—It might be possible that under pres- sure a man in the country who can speak Yiddish him- self would only want a workman in his workshop, an l he might isiay, "I do not mind. He will soon learn English. I will take him." I think under pressure we might introduce that. 17012. In the localities where there are more aliens . than in most other places, take, for instance, Leeds, do they not speak Yiddish there a great deal ?—Yes, but we avoid Leeds, because there are already a good many Jews there. 17013. I wiant to find a place to which you could send an alien as he arrives where he will find a welcome in his own language,, can you find such a place?—I am afraid in the big. towns tihey are not very welcome, be- cause workmen are very jealous of new arrivals. 17014. I mean, there is an opportunity for a new- comer to talk with his fellows?—Yes, certainly. In every place-where 'we send them they will be able to find someone to talk in Yiddish. 17015. Is it a detriment and a drawback on account of his ignorance5 of the language ?—It woiild Create a prejudice that we would like to avoid among non-Jewish .MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 617 people, where a man goes, about and cannot make him- self., understood; it is a difficulty. 17016. You have spoken of the passport. Is that a sort of exit passport from Russia?—Yes. 17017. Do you happen to know what sort of passport it is ?—'They are not often taken. 17018. Do they come on board ship without them ?— Yes, mainly. 17019.-You agree, of course, that we should keep the criminal, the prostitute, the person sick with disease, out of this country?—We should do so, certainly, if by so doing we do not make (mistakes. We are afraid of the power being given to ordinary officials. 17020. I want first the principle. If you could keep them out, of course, it could be no advantage to us to have prostitutes, criminals, and persons sick with disease ?—Certainly not. 17021. If we set to work to do it, can you suggest any way in which we can do it except by receiving a pass- port from abroad ?■—Of course, in the case of disease and of cripples, or persons bodily or mentally afflicted, you could. 17022. That would be apparent?—Yes, it is apparent. For the other cases, I do not know. You would have to have a very large machinery for a very few people. 17023. Take first the criminals, the most objectionable class. In the first place, I suppose it would be impos- sible to apply it to all our ports, such as, for instance, Folkestone and Dover, where we get our French traf- fic, unless you do have a passport ?—I do not think there are many cases. 17024. Supposing we limited certain regulation® to certain ports, namely, the ports that do now receive these alien immigrants, would you fear that if the ports were proclaimed as subject to regulations, and other ports left out, that the traffic would be diverted to the other ports ?—Yes, if yon coupled with it the difficulty of getting a passport, ,1 think there would be a great difficulty. A man who wants to get out of Russia might not apply for an exit passport, and, therefore he could not get another passport, or if he did he would be afraid that if he went for another certificate or a con- sular certificate, he would be stopped. 17025. I do. not see* that that is an answer to my question. My question is, supposing we pronounced or declared certain ports to be subject to the regula- tions, I ask you if those regulations were carried into effect whether you would infer that there would be a change of the port to those other ports that had not been proclaimed ?—-I have not made myself understood. If the alternative were a light one there would be no diversion, that is, if the regulations were easily com- plied with. 17026. But we want to know whether a man is a criminal or not ?—How would you find that out ? 17027. The regulation may be that a man must get a passport, and if he is a criminal he will not get it ? —If he is an honest man he cannot get it. 17028. We must try that. I do not know how you can prove a man to be a criminal unless you ask him for some proof to the contrary?—'With regard to Jews I think this would be a very good plan. I think if the head of the community in his own native town, the Chief Rabbi, or the head of hi.s community, gave him a character for honesty and so on, it would be efficacious, and would be easily procured, and the man would have no object in going elsewhere. The Rabbi would not give a certificate unless he personally knew the man, and in these small places he knows everybody. I think if you made it .necessary to get a certificate of that kind a man would «so easily get it if he was an honest man that lie would not strive to go to Folkestone. 17029. This is practical. Take the ports where they come to from' Bremen and Libau and Hamburg and Rotterdam. Do you suggest that such a system could be carried out. Take those four ports. Could it be carried out there ?—Before they went there they would have to bring a certificate from their native town, and bring it withj them to London. 17030. What identity could you have? One mat] goes away from a village in Poland and arrives in Hamburg. That certificate is given to somebody else at Hamburg?—One practical way and a very cheap way would be to let him: be photographed, and let the Rabbi sign over the photograph. 17031. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Or finger prints?—Yes. 6144. 17032. (Chairman.) That must be a photograph taken at the Polish village?—Yes. Sir S. Montagu, ]> art. 17033. Then he is photographed and he is there re- presented. Then on the back of it there is a oertifi- M . 1QfiQ cate that he is an honest man?—Yes, the Rabbi signs 1 ai' - over the photograph so as to show that it has not been affixed. 17034. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) A cheaper and more effec- tive way still would be by finger prints ?—Yes, 17035. (Chairman.) Then a man arrives at Rotterdam and comes oni here. Our Custom House officer' will have to judge whether he is the same as the man in the photograph?—Yes, there would not be much diffi- culty in that. 17036. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There would not be much substitution ?—No. 17037. (Chairman.) I should think again there we could manage that by English legislation. If a person arrives without this photograph is he to go away and not be admitted ?—No, because you could detain him till he could get proof, or his relatives here identified him, or he got some recommendation or something of the kind. 17038. Supposing a criminal—a forger—wants to» come and he cannot get a certificate from, his Rabbi, supposing we have named ports where this rule shall apply, and instead iof going to Harwich or London- he arrives at Dover ?—I think that is very likely. 17039. He would get out of the net unless we made- it apply to all ports. We could not have everybody's, photograph?—That is so. You would have to confine it mainly to' steerage passengers, and these men would very likely come first class or second class. 17040. The well-to-do criminal would of course come first class ?—Yes, I am afraid so, but I think the ques- tion has been exaggerated. I do not think criminals; come over ht-re to any great extent. I think they arc made criminals here by hardship and overcrowding. 17041. (Lord Rothschild.) Are they not being made criminals here by being sent to prison for trifling offences ?—That may be so. 17042. (Chairman.) Do you not think there has been a considerable wave and increase in criminal foreigners lately coming into this country?—I think the propor- tion is not very much greater than you might expect. 17043. But I am speaking of the increase?—There is an increase in the numbers, but- 17044. It goes beyond that?—I think the generality of offenders are made more vicious by overcrowding.. 17045. But we have the class of burglars and forgers- of rouble notes, and various descriptions of crimes that require experience. Are you aware whether there has > been any wave ct experienced criminals or not?—Mo, I do not think so. 17046. I do not quite agree with, you that it is our climate that is reispomt^ble for converting the virtuous... alien^ into the criminal ?—No, but I think they may be vicious and display the fact here through circum- stances. 17047. If your view is right, that it is by coming here and overcrowding they get made into criminals, then for their sakes you would keep them out ?—I do - not say it is this country ; it is the conditions under which they live in overcrowded rooms. Nothing creates, immorality more than overcrowding in rooms. 17048. Do you think it makes a man commit a . burglary?—-No, I am talking of immoral crimes. 17049. I do not think the evidence is that there is.: an increase of immorality in the sense you are speak- ing of ; we are speaking of crimes ?—I have no special knowledge of that. I do not think the number of criminals among the Jewish aliens is large. 17050. It is rather upon the increase, as has been pointed out to us, and no doubt there has been an in- crease both at the Middlesex Sessions and in the Police Courts?—But if there is an increase of 10 per vent, in the number of criminals and an increase of 10 per cent, in the population you are as you were. ' 17051. But it is an increase in the proportion. We shall have a fuller return about that matter. I think I gathered from you that you would confine your efforts to altering the present condition of things, and to keep out, if you can, the undesirables of the class you mention, but you would not keep out those persons 4 IROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Sir S. Bart. 2S(Mar. 190& whom- we have designated as greeners or persons even with small means?—No, I think they prove to be very good citizens, and their children excellent. 17052. Are you willing to admit them on the ground that it " is natural justice to them that they should' be admitted, or that their presence here -is beneficial to the population ?—I think both; if I thought they would injure the State I should keep them out, but thinking that they not only do not injure the State, but will eventually benefit the State and certainly benefit themselves, I would like them to come in. The burden falls on the community and on the Jewish trades. •17053. But keeping out the undesirables, limited, as you say, and admitting the minor class of undesirables, according to others but not according to you; even you would regulate the treatment of these persons I call tue minor undesirables, that is, you would pre- vent overcrowding ?—Certainly. 17054. I think that is really the result of your evidence before us ?—Yes. 17055. (Mr. Vallance.) You have had a long experi- ence ofr the condition of East London; are there any definite proposals which you have in your mind for, the alteration of the law with regard to overcrowding ? —I would make, all concerned in the property liable to be fined, that is, the liability could mot be shifted. For instance, if you put it upon tfye freeholder and he presses the tenant you would check it. You can cer- tainly legislate against the evasion of the law. 17056. Lord James asked one question with reference to the closing of certain areas—for instance, the Stepney area-—against any further admission of population where it is declared to be a congested area, and you hesitated rather in your answer ?—I do not quite like it, but it may be the best means. 17057. Assuming that that area was not an area, such as the Stepney area, but a much smaller area., an area confined to certain houses or streets, in which there is ^knowli by the municipal authority to be great conges- tion, what would you say to that?-—I think that would be much better. 17058. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you think the power could be safely left to borough councils to close the whole area or any part of Stepney ?—I do not think so. 17059. You would not make the borough council the authority ?—No, I would rather have the London County Council, if any, because they could act for all London. . 17060. (Chairman.) To close without the power of openiug without the licence or permission of some repre- - sentative of the local authority—that is, you would close in some modified form and say, " You shall not in this district take any further tenants without the permission of our- surveyor " ?—I look on the danger of closing rather than on the danger of opening. I think that might be influenced by the working class who are jealous. A great deal of this is the natural jealousy of one workman to another who is perhaps doing better, and they might bring pressure on the borough council. I would rather have the larger area and the larger franchise, because you would have more justice probably, or impartiality, I would say., 17061. (8ir\ Kenelm Digby.) It would raise very diffi- cult , questions locally?—Yes. I think so putting it into the hands of the borough council. I would rather put it in the hands of some Government Board or the County Council. I think that would be fairer, because you find places closed by local pressure which might prove irresistible to the borough council, but would not iave any effect on the larger body. 17Q62. (Lord Rothschild.) Would you see any objec- tion to having the questions of wages disputes referred legally to the Jewish tribunal, the Beth Din, instead of the police magistrate ?—I should see no objection; at present they go to both; if they are dissatisfied with one they go to the other. 17063. Do. you think that some arrangement could be made by which they could only be forced to go to the Beth Din and have a legal assessor ?—I think all the cases of .miscarriage of justice happen because the man does not fully understand the questions that are pjit to him. . A riian might have a smattering of English, and yet n6t'be able to stand his trial in a. foreign language. 17064. (Chairman.) That is not Lord Rothschild's question. Do you see any means by which the wages disputes can by law be remitted to a tribunal by agree- ment—a. domestic tribunal, we call it, and not a court of justice?—No, not with regard to wages. I should think with regard to other disputes, but not disputes affecting a large class. I do not think it would be satis- factory, because they are not solely Jews. They tried to amalgamate with non-Jews, and you may have a decision one way for, say, the. tailoring trade that, would not affect the non-Jew alone. (Chairman.) But these are questions of wages, a kind of debt case, that is taken at the police court. 17065. (Lord Rothschild.) Evidence was given here that some thousands of cases take up the time of the police magistrate! which were simply wage disputes between Jewish masters and Jewish workmen, and that the police magistrate had a. great difficulty in deciding these on account of the interpreter. What I want to ask you is whether some machinery could be found to refer these cases to the Beth Din?—We have ail interpreter in the County Court, whose whole time is given to inter- preting the Jewish cases, and there is no difficulty. It is with the cases of felony or crime that the difficulty comes in. 17066. That does not affect the point ? (Chairman.) It is to save the judicial time. 17067. (Lord Rothschild.) The point is this, that these cases take up the time of the police magistrate when he ought to be otherwise occupied. Do you think that these cases could be decided by the Beth Din, with a legal assessor, to advantage ?—I think it might be for petty crimes. 17068. It is not a question of crime?—Small debts, but not a general dispute. 17069. This is only a wage dispute ?—Individual cases, but not a class. 17070. (Chairman.) Not to control the whole trade?— Yes, I think that might be done. 17071. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to the passing of these people through the hands of the Rabbis in the locality, that is a thing that has often occurred to me to be an excellent thing, if it could be done, and it is already done with regard to the Argentine and Canadian Colonies ?—I did not know it. 17072. (Chairman.) Do the Argentine Colonies and Canada, receive under those conditions ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to people going to1 Argentina and Canada, say, for instance, from a village in Poland, when a man wants to start he ex- presses his desire to emigrate, and then the Rabbi takes steps to find out all about him before he is given a chance of going, and if he finds him to be a right sort of man, likely to do> well, he is passed on and very likely assisted to go. But none of these cases exist with regard to this country. (Chairman.) But I understand that, is the voluntary act of the man who gets a. credential as to' his character. That is useful to him if he seeks employment ? 17073. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He does it perfectly voluntarily, and if he had to comply with any standard in this country he would readily go to the Rabbi and do the same thing as. he does now if he wants to go to Argentina or Canada. ?—That is so. 17074. You say that in your opinion this large influx and the creation of this large colony in the East End has not inflicted any hardship on the people locally ?— I think it has inflicted the hardship of competition among Jews, almost entirely among Jews, and it has also naturally increased the burden of the relief on the Jewish community; but I doubt if there has been any material injury done to any trade, because there are so many trades into which Jews cannot enter. 17075. I am thinking now more with regard to house accommodation. There is great pressure and a desire to live in that neighbourhood. Do you think this large inflow does not inflict hardship in this way?—I do nob say it inflicts no hardship. I only wish the Jews could be displaced in sonne way. It is much better for them to go to the suburbs. 17076. The circumstances being as they are, it is quite understandable (at least I think so) that there should be feeling about this subject?—I think it is exaggerated. ^ 17077. It may b» exaggerated, but it is there ?—I have visited, I should say, every court a,nd alley and every little street in Whitechapel, and I have never comeMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. m across prejudice against Jews or displacement; except in very, very few instances. 17078. Whitechapel is, more or less, un fait- accompli how. It is done there ?—I have also been a good deal in Stepney. I do not say in the> borough of Stepney, but in the Stepney division. I know a good deal about the Stepney division, and I have visited a good deal there, and I do not think that there were any complaints in My time, excepting in the last year or two. I do not think it is real. I think it is a great deal artificial. 17079. I am sorry to disagree with you, but I have come across it constantly every day. What I want to get from you is that these people coming to this country is a great benefit to the people arriving, and they do get privileges here that they do not get elsewhere P—I do not quite see it. I think if they were allowed the smallest increased comfort in Russia they had very much better stop fliere than come to this country. 17080. But, being as they are, there is a great advan- tage to them in coming here. Surely the freedom of this country is something unheard of (leaving Russia out of v consideration) in other countries ?—But, unfortunately, the people who have suffered for generations do not know the benefit of freedom. 17081. Do not they appreciate it?—They appreciate it when they come. They can hardly believe it till they are here ; but, with the exception of a few who must- leave, they are better off where they are, active persecution having ceased. 17082. Anyhow, it is a refuge for them to come to now?—Yes, it is. 17083. You do not agree about the hardship on your own people, but do not you think this advantage should n<5t be attained at the expense of the native population Sir b. in any shape or form?—I think there is a sort of give Montagu, and take. No class of workmen welcomes other work- Bart, men, but the British are largely spread all over the ~—~ ^ world^ and they get welcomed wherever they go. I do'"® ^ar. 1903. not see that we should despise or drive away the fairly conducted alien. 17084. But there is no analogy, in my opinion, be- tween the Englishman going abroad and this particular subject- we are dealing with here, because here the in- cidence is entirely different. It is the incidence here that makes the difference. It is not the scattered in- dividual going about and taking employment here, there, and everywhere ?—One is religious persecution, and the other is a desire to benefit themselves, pure and simple. 17085. I mean the incidence of aggregation in one part of one town of these people is what makes it felt. It is not the same thing as the English population spreading over the continent %—I cannot help thinking that a, great number of them come over unwillingly. 17086. I- think that is very likely true, tool—And particularly if they knew the conditions- in wnich they are employed in East London, I think fewer would come, if it was only well known and brought to their notice. 17087. You try to make these conditions as well known as you can?—Certainly. 17088. At all events, it appears to me that the con- ditions in London are not at all what they ought to be for them?—No, the overcrowding is a very serious point, and affects not only Jews, but affects the non- Jews in other districts. There ought to be a general law against overcrowding. Mr. Leopold Jacob Greenberg, called; and Examined. 17089. (fiord Rothschild.) You are desirous,.of giving certain evidence before the Commission ?—-Yes. f 17090. Perhaps in giving that evidence you will leave out those: portions of tiie evidence which we have already received, and. only give us the new facts to which you wish to call the attention of the Commission ? —Certainly. I was born in England, my father and my maternal grandparents being alien immigrants. I have for many years given close study to the question of alien immigration, and have written various articles and reviews upon the subject. I am the publisher and founder of the " Jewish Year Book," and desire to call attention to a reference to that publication made in the course of his evidence by Mr. Arnold White. He referred to what he termed a " sudden leap" in the figures given of the Jewish popu- lation in. Russia, and suggested that the figures had been " manipulated.' When pressed upon the point he further suggested that the manipulation had been done by me, because it was im the interest of the Zionist* cause to magnify the importance of the Jewish nation- ality. I need scarcely say that Mr. Arnold White's allegations upon- this point are sheer moonshine, with- out a tittle of foundation, and I must express my regret and surprise that Mr. White should have ventured to make this charge against me when the explanation for the "sudden leap" appeared in the "Jewish Year Book " with the figures themselves. The figures he pointed to were those given, respectively in the "Jewish Year Books" for 1898 and 1901. I produce copies of those issues, and it will be seen that in the former case there is an aster isk against the figures given as the popu- lation of Russia, and a note explaining that they are " estimated numbers," while in the latter there Is a note explaining that the larger figure is based upon the Census return for 1897, which was not previously avail- able. These explanatory notes! must have escaped the attention of Mr. Arnold White, and I can only say that for obvious reasons the utmost care is taken to present accurate statistics and information in the " Jewish Year Book," regardless altogether of whether they tell for or against the contentions of any section in the community. I should, in the first place, like to point out to the Commission that the immigration of Jews from Eastern Europe cannot be fairly considered without large regard "being paid to the fact that it is at root caused by ad- herence to the tenets of Judaism, and that the com- plaints' f of its effects are traceable almost entirely to the same cause. The more immediate cause for the emigra- tion of Jews from Eastern Europe- may be economic, as - " 6144. ' ...... x " •■■■ ■ - ' may be the more immediate cause of the complaints of its effects. But in both cases the economic causes in their turn are directly traceable to religious causes. I emphasise this point because I shall show that any restriction of the immigration of Jews from iU a stern Europe must, however far may be that intention—and, of course, that intention will ever be farthest from the thoughts of the British Legislature—'have the effect of adding to the persecution of Jews on account of their: religious faith. The almost unanimous persecution to which J ews- were subjected throughout Europe, left the old Kingdom, of Poland the only haven of refuge for our unhappy people, and at its partition Russia took with her share of : the fallen state the large bulk of European Jews. Russia's hereditary policy was anti-Jewish, and it added to this the motive of compelling universal allegiance to • the Greek Church. So that, ever since Poland became part of the Russian Empire, there has been a, migration, albeit gradual and cautious, of Polish Jews to countries in which they .might enjoy the human rights of liberty and freedom. Jews could at any time, and can now,, purchase freedom in Russia by adherence to the Greek Church. Unhappily, too many of them do so, but happily the best of them prefer exile—permanent exile —from their homes to apostacy as the price of their freedom. A few years -ago a contribution to the " Social England Series," published by Messrs. Swan, Sonnenschein and Co., appeared from the pen of Dr. W. Cunningham, entitled " Alien. Immigrants to England." The book-— certainly the most important contribution to the immi- gration question that has appeared since the Board of Trade Report, issued in 1894—-presents the matter in the broad light which historical survey can alone supply.. Dr. Cunningham shows that noit lalone is alien, immi- gration a settled policy of this country of immemorial antiquity, but that England is nothing but a resultant of the free working of that policy. " So many diverse tribes and stocks," says Dr. Cunningham, "have contributed to the formation of the English nation, that it is not easy to draw a line between the native and the foreign elements." Not that the process of digesting the 'heterogeneous population has gone on without com- plaint or trouble. On the contrary, every fresh ele- ment, has been complained against by those already here, and generally because of the ^ upset" to trade, in custom or Wages,, caused by the new-comers. So'far Dr. Cunningham's book shows that there is little to differentiate, the immigration question of to-day from that of. vesterd-a.y y reason of unexpected misfortunes or persecutions is •■deprived of his accumulations, who has been subjected to pillage and plunder while fleeing from the burdens "which have become unbearable, if capable of supporting himself and family, if he has one, with a reasonable •certainty after obtaining a foothold, is guaranteed by friends or relatives upon landing, or strong probable •-surrounding circumstances, is nut, according to our definition, a pauper. The history of this country is full •of instances of men from all countries who have reached great prominence in our commercial, financial, pro- fessional, and legislative bodies, both in State and nation, who would have been returned as paupers if the standard of pauperism was based upon money possessions when landing." In the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Representatives on Immigration and Naturalisation, 1892, we find that the practice under the Act of 1891, in -which " paupers or persons likely to become a public charge " are excluded. From the evidence given before ^the Select Committee, we have the following evidence lay Colonel Weber: — (Q.) To what extent are you or your inspectors influenced by the possession or non-possession of money by immigrants? How far do you make that an earmark of poverty or wealth?—(A.) That de- pends somewhat upon the circumstances. The man, of course, who comes here with 10 dollars (£2) is cer- tainly very little better off than the man who has 1 dollar (4s.), or 2 dollars (8s.)- It is only a question of a few days for his money to give out, you understand. The appearance of the man, his vocation, his willingness to work, his apparent in- dustry, and the demand for the kind of work that he is ready to give, is what governs in such cases. I have sent men back who had 100 dollars (£20) in their pockets. (Q.) As likely to become a public charge?—(A.) "Yes, sir. (Q.) And not criminals?—(A.) And not criminals. (Q.) And had not been in any poorhouse?—(A.) According to their statements they had not been in -any poorhouse. (Q.) On what theory of reasoning did you do that 1 "Was it on account of physical defects?'—{A.) His .appearance indicated that he was a roysterer and a bum, who would probably land in the police- station before a great while. (Q.) Notwithstanding his 100 dollars?—(A.) Not- withstanding his 100 dollars. (Q.) You might think that he was not sick or diseased in any way, and had never been in any prison or poorhouse, and had 100 dollars when he 'Came along, and yet you would turn him back?— {A.) He would give his vocation perhaps as clerk, and they are a drug in the market in this country. Another statement in the Annual Report of the Superintendent of Immigration for 1892 may interest the Commission. A statement was made of the money / -brought by immigrants over the age of 20 years who arrived -and were admitted at the Port of New York during the six months ending June 30th, 1892. It states -explicitly that the 9,306 Russians who brought less than 100 dollars were nearly all destitute, very few of them Iiaving money enough to pay their passage to their desti- nation in the interior of the country. The vast majority of them came on tickets furnished by the Baron Hirsch ITund. " Clearly," says the report, " the reason for -allowing these destitute people (who are apparently Jewish refugees) to land, was, that they were willing -and able to work, that their co-religionists were willing rand able to look after them until t«hey obtained employ- ment, and that thus they would not become a public ^charge." / Before leaving the American side of the matter I should like to direct the attention of the Com- missioners to the very small number of foreigners, who, migrating to America from this country, are returned here by the authorities in the States. Between -the years 1888 and 1900 inclusive, 917,300 foreigners left this country for America, and only 1,258 were re- turned here for all causes, including, of course, contract to labour. This, I venture to suggest, disposes of the assertion that this country is made a human rubbish heap of aliens rejected by the United States. Mr. "Llewellyn Smith, in his evidence, did not state hew if)any intending British immigrants into the United •'.States had been excluded. Had he done so, the Com- mission would have had before them what may be taken Mr. L: J. as the high mark of emigration, and would have been Greenberg. able to compare with it Hebrew immigration to America ---' and see how far, if at all, it falls below the high ^3 Mar. 1903. standard. 17098. What is the point you are seeking to make by this statement %—My point on this statement is this : it has continually been asserted, and it has been placed before the Commission that owing to the restrictive law in America a large number of foreigners who live there are sent back to England as rejected in America —a huge horde. 17099. Just shortly give the figures?—917,300 foreigners left this country during 12 years, and only 1,258 were returned here from all causes. 17100. Were those persons going en route, or were they persons going from this country who had been here and deft for America ?—Both. 17101. I should think most of those would be en route, stopping here at some of our ports ?—Both. I had pre- pared some figures to show the real extent of the alien immigration into this country which arrives for settle- ment, but the secretary of the Board of Deputies ha® supplied statistics upon the point which I apprehend will be sufficient for the purpose. I desire, however, to impress upon the Commission the fact, that, what has in all cases to be borne in mind is, not the numbers of the immigrants arriving, but, so far as can be ascer- tained, the addition to the foreign-born population of the country, and its nature which results from the immi- gration. Thus, I noticed the other day, that when some figures were quoted as to the increase of arrivals at the Port of London it was taken for granted that that in- crease meant necessarily a large addition to the foreign population of the country. An explanation has already been given as to those figures not really representing persons who were not en route to other countries., but what I wish to emphasise is, that sucth partial figures are really no indication one way or the other as to the increase or otherwise of the foreign popula- tion in this country. This can be gauged only by the method which Mr. Emmanuel placed before the Commission, namely, of taking the excess of those arriving from the Continent from those returning to the Continent, and deducting from that excess the excess of foreign emigrants over foreign im- migrants who travel between places out of Europe. From this total have, of course, to be deducted seamen who, as has been shown by the Board of Trade, on arrival are reckoned as immigrants, and who on departure are not so reckoned as they go out as ships' crews. I know that this deduction has been recently questioned, since it has been alleged that a number of these seamen do not go out as part of ships' crews, but remain in the country. But I none the less submit that with the present powers; vested in the Board of Trade for gather- ing immigration and emigration statistics, this method of calculation is the only feasible one. It may not give a scientifically accurate result, but for purposes of com- parison from year to year, it will always indicate if there is a large rise or fall in the immigration for settle- ment in this country. I should like to* say here that it occurs to me that the task before the Commission would be considerably lightened had the Board of Trade had the power for differentiating and marking the nationality of emigrants as well as of immigrants. Had such details been placed before the Commission it would have been possible to draw a more exact balance of emi- gration and immigration, the debit and the credit of it, because we could have seen,, for instance, what number of Russians and Poles leave the countrv as we new see how many come in. I suggest that such powers should be acquired by or conferred upon the Board of Trade, as it would appreciably still further narrow the whole question and reduce it to its truer proportions. 17102. If our Census returns are correct, that makes very little difference. If we have the Census returns in 1901 showing how many aliens there are here and their nationalities, all this is very minute dissection?—I rather think the Census of i891 understated the number, but in 1901 extreme care was taken by the Chief Rabbi and others to get a true return. 17103. The emigration is a minor view of the question, compared with the Census returns, of the number remaining here ?'—If you could get the number of Russian Jews who go out as well as the Rus- sian Jews who come in, that would be another matter, but at present you have only the number of Russian Jews who come in.622 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Jfn L, Qyeeip & Mar, jm 17104. Then you have to look at the number there were before the immigration. If your Census returns are right you will get that better from the Census than 1903. anything else?—You do not. get it year by year. You »— only get it in decades. I do think you would get it much, more accurately in the way I suggest. "17105. You cannot get your immigration accurately, because yo>u do not identify the names?—I think it is * pnly-,Tight',further to point out to the Commission that go, far as. the 'immigration from Eastern Europe is com- "posed of Jews,, they are persons who do not remain aliens except artificially, that is to say, these persons upon leaving their homes determine to bind up their future ' With the country of their adoption, and as soon as. they settle in England are, so far as their political allegiance is concerned, English. If the law as to naturalisation were easier, and I earnestly hope that it will be so made, our people who settle here from abroad would become naturalised British subjects ,very much sooner than they do ; indeed, they would * becoin? naturalised British subjects: as soon as the Gov- ernment and their means would allow them so to do. I have always been of opinion, that it is a mistaken policy vtO' make this naturalisation otherwise than as easy as possible, both in point of time of residence and expense incurred. It seems to me that—and I am speaking espe- cially for Russian and Polish Jews, who become most loyal and devoted citizens—it would be clearly to the interests' of the Government to allow them to become naturalised British subjects as speedily as possible, and thus give them that status of full citizenship which is the highest guarantee of their becoming an unregretted addition to the country of their adoption. . I,'desire noiv to place before the Commission some observations upon what, after all, must 'be; its chief con- sideration in any legislation which may be contemplated. Who are those whom it is desired to exclude P The cbmplaints that have been made to the Commission have not been against those who by any definition can •%'e termed " undesirable," and as to these so-called I #hal! have something to say presently. The complaints 'that have reached the Commission have been first 'againet. "those who successfully compete in trade, and I apprehend that the legislature of a country which main- tains Free Trade as its policy would hesitate very con- siderably before it excluded from its shores those who - are successful in trade competition. Indeed, I submit that it may be taken for granted that this country, keenly pressed as it is in trade competition, is not going to place itself under the disadvantage of excluding those who are likely to-be successful in industry. If exclusion on this line had taken place, there are, of course, many industries from which this country derives immense benefit and which are now carried 'on in the country ■*vhich would never have reached here. The immi- gration from Eastern Europe has, as has been pointed out to the Commission, gained for this country an ex- port trade in clothing in place of an import trade, which . used "fco take place, besides a mantle industry and branches of other1 industries, which, to say the least, are valuable. Reference was made, I think, bv Sir Samuel Montagu this morning to the second-hand cloth- ing trade, which practically has disappeared. The value of that is; that there was nothing that propagated •infectious diseases so extensively as second-hand clothes, arid it was largely because of that, that the cheap clothing trade found its footing. 17106. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What becomes of the second-hand clothing now?—It is, I am told, sent to savages in uncivilised countries (Lord Itothschild.) A great deal is sent to Russia to be made into clothing. 17107. {Major Evans-Gordon.) It is torn-up rags that go there. L do not kncrr what becomes of the secono hand clothes?—They are exported. Some of these petty monarch® adopt this second-hand clothing rather largely. I am told that they appear in most miraculoup garbs. The truth is that where alien labour finds a market it supplies a demand which arises from one • cause or another, most often by reason of inherent advantages possessed by the worker. Thus those Who complain of being " ousted" by the alien really suffer from competition which, by-the-bye, is not eon- fined to the East End of London, nor to trades which aliens affect. I should like here to read two* short ex- tracts. ^ They are both from books thait are frankly aiiti-alfen, and they will explain my point. The first is from a. book called " Problems of Poverty," by John A. Hobson, M.A. He says : 11 Looking on these foreigners as individuals, there is much to T*e said in their favour. They do not introduce a lower merality into the quarters, where they settle, as the Chinese are said to do> uor are tney quarrelsome and law-breaking, like the low-class. Italians who swarm into America. Their habits, so far as cleanliness is concerned, are perhaps not desirable,, bur the standard oif the native population of White- chapel is not sensitively high. For the most part,, and this is true especially of the Jews, they are steady,, in- dustrious,. quiet, sober, thrifty, quick to learn, and. tolerably honest. From the point of view of the old. political economy, they are the very people to be en- couraged, for they turn out the largest quantity of wealth at the lowest cost of production. If it is the^ chief enr for a nation to accumulate the largest possible stock of material wealth, it is evident that the.se are the- very people we require to enable us to achieve our object. But if we consider it is sound national policy to pay regard to the welfare of all classes engaged iix producing this wealth, we may regard this foreign im- migration in quite another light. The very virtues just- enumerated are the chief faults we have to find with the foreign Jew. Just because he is willing) and able io» work so hard for so little pay, willing to undertake any kind • of work out of which he can make a living, be- cause he can surpass in skill, industry, and adaptability the native Londoner, the foreign Jew is such a terrible competitor. He is the nearest approach to the ideal ' economic ' man, the ' fittest' person to survive in trade competition. Admirable in domestic morality, and art- orderly citizen, he is almost void of social morality. No compunction or consideration for hisi fellow-workers will keep him from underselling and over-reaching them ; he acquires a thorough mastery of all the dishonourable- tricks of trade which are difficult to restrain by law; the superior calculating intellect, which is a national" heritage, is used unsparingly to enable him to take advantage of every weakness, folly, and vice of the- society in which lie lives." That is one extract, and not a very complimentary one. The other extract is from " Life in West London." 17108. {Chairman.) I do not think we can go into this.. I daresay people have written things which you differ from, but one cannot discuss one side and the other of the arguments of all the people who have written upon the subject. I wish you would give us a few more sug- gestions or facts of your own. I do not care about these books 'I—Then I will leave that, my Lord. The next main complaint is against those who are able to pay higher rents, and who, it is alleged, have- by their capacity so to do ousted native dwellers. It is alleged that this capacity to pay higher rent has- been attained by unfair means of overcrowding. I am not here to deny that there has been serious over- crowding in Stepney. The returns as to overcrowding, throughout London and the country, however, show that, with the exception of Stepney, overcrowding ha& diminished everywhere. Consequently, this part of the question is entirely confined to one district. Why has overcrowding not diminished there as it has else- where ? Various reasons have been placed before the- Commission, and most of them tend to give the ex- planation, that is to say, the explanation cannot be- given as resulting from any single cause. In so far, however, as it is caused by the faults of people them- selves, it is, of course, directly traceable to the fact that they are continuing here what has been forced upon them elsewhere. But it is quite evident that Jews, of all people in the world, love comfort, and that, so soon as they can learn comfort and attain it, they adopt it, while they make immense efforts to* attain it. Others, with a greater knowledge of this particular branch of the subject than I can pretend to, have given, and will give evidence as to the causes of the overcrowding that has been maintained in Stepney, but I am convinced that restrictive legislation within practical lines would not cure it or relieve it. What,, perhaps, would be very effectual would be the circu- lation by the local authorities of a notice pointing out to the people that it is detrimental to the health of themselves, and especially to that of their children, if they allow more than a pertain number of people to live in a room of such^find-such a dimension. The notice would have to Ibei/in .plain language, and free from technicalities. €lur people are extremely careful, both of their own health, and especially the health of their children} $nd if suchi a notice as I suggest were generally-circulated I believe it would have a great effect in diminishing excessive overcrowding. I am not, hoover, at all sure that overcrowding is alone responsible for the high rents paid in Stepney, f.ior forMINUTES OF EVIDENCE# 623 the displacement of natives. There is another factor which has to be reckoned with. Our people are able to. pay higher rents than others, even while earning no- higher wages, because they save the money others #xpend on drink. Tfee amount the average working naiaii in the East End of London spends per week on drink is half the East- Enders' trouble ; for not alone is -there the direct expenditure to be considered, but there has to be considered also the deterioration of energy and capacity which drink induces. From this vice the Jew is practically immune, and I believe it gives him his best chance in competing with the native, both -as a worker and as house tenant. Nothing has struck me as more remarkable in this inquiry than the fact that, the large increase in the Jewish population of the East End notwithstanding, not a single complaint has Ibeen made to the Commission as to any falling off in the drink trade T Having regard to the habits of our people in this respect, we can judge what an increase in the drinking of the native population there must liave been if alien immigration has not affected the drink trade of the neighbourhood. But why it should be a matter of complaint that -Jews live in Stepney in a larger proportion than "hitherto I fail to understand. Clearly, their presence lias, not depreciated the value of the property, and -the rates, upon which their poor do not go, have been doubly enhanced. . Streets like Ship's Alley, Cable ^Street, Ladylake's, Grove, Thrawl Street, Flower and "Dean Street, Great Pearl Street, Duckett Street, TSrnest Street, have, been transformed from places of -vileness by the coming of the Jew from Eastern ^Europe. ; 17109; We have- heard why they are objected to. It is because it is alleged they have turned out the British workmen, and taken possession of the houses. 'That is the objection ?^-And I am saying, my Lord-- 17J.10. You are saying you do not see what their •objection is, because their presence increases the value of property?—Not only that, but these streets have been transformed from places of vileness to decent streets,' Then I suggest these people must live some- where. 17111. Your opponents would tell you they should live in Russia ?—That brings me to the so-called " unde- sirables." I confess I was surprised beyond measure to hear Mr. Leonard Cohen denominate those poor people whom the Board of Guardians had assisted back to their homes as "undesirables." The description was altogether unwarranted, for since they went back voluntarily—many of them, I doubt not, never in- tended staying here permanently—rather than being called "undesirables," they were persons who didn't desire to stay in this country. I do not understand ivhat Mr. Cohen meant when he said that some of them "had " no right" to come. They clearly had as much " right" to come as Mr. Cohen's own forbears or mine. Where-, however, the Board of Guardians have exer- cised pressure to induce Jews to return to Eastern Europe—where they have carried out what they term their repatriation policy—they have pursued a policy •as wicked as it is foolish. I know some cases, notably those of the Roumanian Jews who came here a few years ago, where they have exercised pressure to in- duce Jews to return who were capable and well able to make their way. To call these persons " undesirables " as a perversion of terms, and the Board miist know •quite well that eve^y man they send back to the condi- tions of life that are reserved for Jews in Eastern Europe is, th.e returning! of,abrand to the burning. Such a policy merely goes to perpetuate and magnify the problem with which the Board of Guardians here, like other J ewish charitable agencies elsewhere, are con- fronted ; and, apart from its selfish cruelty—none the less so because unintentional—is.a proclamation that the methods of Jewish charity to meet the Jewish ques- tion are a failure. The business of the Jewish Board of Guardians is to, rescue all Jjejws that come under their aegis and improve their status, not to send them back to the horrible conditions from which—*by what sore ".sacrifices who can tell?—they have just released themselves. I object to baittledore and shuttlecock being played with human lives. Nothing I can say- can condemn this policy of repatriation .more forcibly than that passage in the report of his investi orations presented, to the Commission, by Major Evans-Gordon, where he describes those poor persons in the Russian pale of settlement who had been sent back from England appealing to him Mr. L. J. to assist them once again from slavery tc ihe land Greenberg, of freedom. Will you call such persons " undesirables," — who, having undergone the terrors of one journey Mar. 19Q3< backwards and forwards, who, if you like, have made a failure of that journey, yet have the energy and the pluck to undertake another and to try once more ? One does not know whether more to admire the quenchless spirit of freedom of these people or to pity them for the conditions under which they must be living, and which will not let them rest in despair while life is left in them. And all the while, pray do not forget that, in addition, they are exercising a devo- tion which all men worthy of the name must admire by refusing to purchase their freedom by apostacy! And the Chairman of the Jewish Board of Guardians calls these, forsooth, " undesirables " ! I think English- men, who know pluck when they see it, who can ap- preciate steadfastness to principle and loyalty to faith as precious characteristics, will not endorse the esti- mate of Mr. Cohen as to these people. I am afraid that Mr. Cohen's verdict upon them, however, is the result of somewhat superficial examination. One of the chief complaints, as a matter of fact, which, in the course of this inquiry has been made against the alien immigrant, is, that, to a very large extent, he is physically unfit?—I think that was Mr. Arnold White's expression. 17112. I think, in justice to Mr. Cohen, you have rather misunderstood him. He used the word " undesir- able " not in relation to the man himself, but it was undesirable that a person who could not earn his own living should come to this, country, and therefore he was undesirable here ?—I rather think you asked him this question : " Would you consider these persons whom you repatriated as undesirables ? and he said, " Yes." 17113. Undesirable in the interest of the people, workmen or others who are working here. Your argu- ment is rather to show that; it was a desirable act in their own interests for them to> come here. Mr. Cohen never touched that question at all. I am sure vou would not want to differ from Mr. Cohen's views on that?—It shows the disadvantage of applying such a wide term as " undesirable " to immigrants. 17114. You must not blame Mr. Cohen for that., because the term was put to him?—Yes, and I rather think it was Mr. Arnold White who used that term too. Then I continue: One of the chief complaints, as a matter of fact, which in the course of this inquiry has been made against the alien immigrant is that to a very large extent he is physically unfit, and the physically unfit would be among the so-called " undesirables" it is sought to exclude by legislation. I do not understand quite clearly what is the exact meaning we are to apply to this term, physically unfit," since Mr. White in the course of his cross-examination appeared to modify what he had said by admitting that in the first genera- tion after settlement this physical unfitness disappears or diminishes. If this is so^ and bearing in mind that there is practically no inter-marriage:, it would seem that the alien does not follow the ordinary laws of heredity, or that in his case environment has a much larger effect than upon the general population. Assum- ing; there is anything in Mr. White's suggestion, I am inclined to- believe that the latter alternative is the more likely. I think instances could be found, multip'ied again and again, of the physical prowess of the child of the alien uew. But, as a matter of fact, this physical unfitness on the part of the Jew is a. surface unfitness only . M. Leroy Beaulieu, in his book " Israel among the Nations," puts this point very clearly when he says : — u The Jew, particularly in the large Jewries of the East, is often small and puny; he looks wretched, sickly, shrunken and pale. But all this should not deceive- us ; under the frail exterior is < concealed an intense vitality. . . . There is no race that appears less strong, and none that can so well resist misfortune. The reason of this is that in soul as well as in body, morally as well as physi- cally, the Jew is the product of selection, of a selection that has lasted tWO'thousand years. . . All that proved too weak, bodily and spiritually , was eliminated from the race either by death or baptism. . . . Regarding the Jew's longevity, there is not the slightest doubt— ... In America, for instance, the Jews are regarded by the life insurance companies as especially desirable clients. Almost everywhere, especially in countries where the laws are not such as to render existence624 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION*. Mh L. J. Gf^penberg. 23 Mar. 1903. intolerable to them, the average duration of life amongst the Jews is considerably higher than that of the Catholics, Protestants or the adherents of the Greek Church." 17115. I do not think this assists us on the question of alien immigration. We are on the point of whether these foreign aliens should come in 'here. To tell us the longevity of Jews who are native-born in each nation does not assist us, and it is a long way off the question we are discussing?—What I am trying to show you is that the Jews who come here and who are declared by Mr. Arnold White to be physically unfit are not really physically unfit, because they have got such a good record. 17116. You are ap-plying it to the German Jew, which does not mean an alien immigrant,, but means any member of the Hebrew faith resident in any country. You have not touched the question of the nationalities of these people ?—As a matter of fact, I propose to prove that it applies to practically the whole of the Jews in America. 17117. They are American Jews ?—Having regard to the number of alien immigrants! to America, the American Jew to-day is, to all intents and purposes, the product of alien immigration during the last 20 years. 17118. That cannot affect the question whether these men should come in here unchecked at all. I do not see the point of it. It does not assist me, but if you think it better to read on, please do F—What accounts for this biological superiority, and is a result of it—■ cause and effect acting and reacting one upon the other—is the higher natural " vitativeness," as phreno- logists call it, which is inherent in the Jew. The comparative rareness of suicide among Jews points in the same direction, and I have seldom met a Jew, even the poorest and the most destitute, who did not feel within him the possibility of infinitely better things, or who gave way long to despair. Physical unfitness, if it existed, would show itself in the vital statistics of our people. That is my point, my Lord. Unhappily, so far as England is concerned, Jewish vital statistics are of the moot meagre, and I am not aware of any worth the name having been compiled. Such statistics as we have are, however, frequently mis- read. Such an instance occurred the other day, when Mr. N. S. Joseph stated that infant mortality was abnormally high amongst Jews in this country, and sought to prove it by comparing the proportion which deaths under the age of five years bear to those above amongst us and amongst the general community. Ob- viously this; reckoning cannot prove anything, for the high proportion which deaths below five years bear to those above that age amongst us may well result from the good record we have in this matter generally. That I shall show afterwards. You might, for instance, have in one place 100 deaths all told, 50 below the age of five and 50 above. That would give you an infant mortality of 50 per cent. But in another1 place you might have in the) same population 200 deaths all told, 70 below the age of five and 130 above, and then you would get. upon a far larger death rate a much smaller percentage of child mortality. As a matter of fact, all authorities go< to show that we have a remarkably low child mortality. Now in connection with the Census: of the United States taken in 1899, some invaluable Jewish statistics—that is, statistics bearing upon alien immigration—were pub- lished by th@ Census Department at Washington in 1890, Census Bulletin No. 19, December 30th, 1890. The value of these returns from America, arises from more than one direction. In the first place, they were so drawn up as to satisfy the authorities that they were practically as aociuratie—except perhaps in one detail—as such returns can well be. Next, they were not drawn from any limited area, and in their broad results they accord prettv generally with all ascertained facts concerning Jews in other parts of the world. And lastly, they are of especial value in connection with this inquiry, because they were drawn from a Jewry composed—as is London's Jewry—to a considerable extent by the immigration of Jews settled in a land of freedom. The returns were taken of some 10,000 odd families, involving about 60,000 persons. 4,411 families were resident in the Eastern States and Atlantic Coast, including 2,413 in New York and vicinity. Of the rest. 1,352 families resided in the Mississippi Valley, 2,719 in the Great Lakes region, 703 on the Pacific Slope, and 1,433 on the Gulf Coast and in the Southern States. Of these families 1,332 were native born, 8,263 had been in the United States fifteen years or more, 221 ten to fifteen years, 552 five to ten years, 128 under five years, and in 124 cases the period of residence was not stated- Of the persons enumerated, 40,666 were born in the* United states, and-of these 36,772 had one or both parents foreign born. It will thus be seen what a wide- area as to locality and what a wide range as to period., of residence, were tabulated. And when we find that the ratios or marriages, births, and deaths in all theses localities are, in the language of the report, " very . uniform throughout," it is clear that the statistics, tabulated have a special significance indicative of the: fact that Jewish biology is to a large extent independent of' Jewish surroundings. These American statistics, showed that the Jews had a lower birth rate, a lower marriage rate, and a. lower death rate than the average' population. The birth rate was shown to be 20*81.,> which was at least 10 per thousand lower than the aver- age birth rate among the general population. Taking, the ratio of births with reference to the number of women of child-bearing ages noted, viz., those betweenc. 15 and 49 years, the rate was 72*87 per thousand,, against 82*9 in Massachusetts and 86 in Rhode Island. 17119. For us to go into' details of American statistics, with regard to alien immigrants and other Jewish people—we do not know where they come from—does not assist this Commission at all. It is too far off this, question. There are so many subjects you are so very well acquainted with?—Then I will pass over these sta- tistics, my Lord. M.M. Oulenikoff and Soubotin com- piled some returns, not from Jewish but from official? sources, of darkest Russia. They showed that from 1867' to 1885 the average death rate in the fifteen Jewish pro- vinces—in the Pale—was 36*6 per thousand, while for the twelve adjacent provinces it was 40*3 per thousand. Mr. Arnold White, who quotes these statistics m ins. book " The Modern Jew," informed me that tiiese re- turns were stopped by the Russian Government because- they proved so inordinately favourable in results to our people. And this, be it noted, is of our people wliile- being amidst conditions amongst the most vile Known... Again, M. Alexandrini, in his statistical studies of the* district in 1896, .showed that in the case of the Rou- manian Catholics, the proportion of deaths was 3*82 psr hundred, while in the case of Roumanian Jews it was- only 2*61 per hundred. One of the secrets of this re- markable biological disproportion between Jews and the. general population is obviously to be found in the differ- ence of child mortality. I have got the American- re- turns to -show that. 17120. Why do you say the child mortality is less- among Jews ? Do they take greater care of their chil- dren 1—Yes, and the mothers do not go to work at the critical period. 17121. Are those good qualities shown amongst them I —Yes, very largely. The American return is the only return which we have which proves this. Thus,, taking the American returns as the basis, it was found that of 100,000 Jewish children born, there will be- 86,328 living at the age of five, and of 100,000 Christian children there will be only 73,121 living at that age.. At the age of 10, out of 100,000 there will be 84,006' Jewish children, as against 72,707 Christians, and at, the age of fifteen, of the 100,000 Jewish children there, will be 83,102 living, as: against 69,472 Christian chil- dren of the same number of births. The chance of life-,, is taken at the moment of birth.. What is termed " the-- expectation of life " is 57 years for Jews and 41 years for Christians. Those were calculated on Humphreys'* Table, which I believe is the recognised one for insurance offices in England. A Jew boy of 10 years of age would on an average have fifty years of life before him, and a Christian lad only thirty-seven. And perhaps not much less remarkable was the fact revealed by the American, statistics that the general death rate amongst males was higher among those whose mothers were born in the United States, and less among those whose mothers were natives of Russia and Poland. All that must go to show that these alien immigrants are not physically unfit. Another ^ secret of the differ- ence in Jewish and Christian vital statistics is thr- com- parative immunity from mortality caused by alcohol amongst our people. To give but one example of this,, the deaths from drunkenness in 1887 were 12 per million in the Jewish (Pale) Provinces, and 61 per million in the twelve adjacent provinces. This, I need scarcely point out, must largely influence the chance of life of the children born—both actively and passively. It would be interesting to know, if possible, how many children in a city like London die within the first five yearsMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 625 from disease or lack of vitality, transmitted to the child >as a direct result of excess of alcohol indulged in by their parents, and it would be, I am sure, appalling if we knew the extent of the death rate amongst children under five from parental neglect, due also to alcohol, the number of children over-laid by drunken mothers being alone considerable. Indeed, so far as vital •statistics are concerned, a large difference between Jews) and the general population is the difference which •must exist between a sober and a less-sober population, to which has to be added the vitativeness of the Jew, to which I have already referred. Be this as it may, the •Commission should be chary of accepting the statement that the alien immigrant from Russia and Poland to this country is, to any appreciable extent, " physically unfit," seeing thait it was exactly that class that con- tributed the largest proportion of the total that went to make up the vital statistics gathered in America to •which I have ventured to call the attention of the Com- mission. And surely with such vital statistics to show, our people have not much reason to listen to counsels of assimilation, seeing that these vital statistics are a result of our having remained a separate people. 17122. What we should like would be more particu- larity as to these deaths in Stepney. What occurs in "Poland or Russia before they start is very far off the question ?—I should be delighted if we could get them. 17123. We have had some returns of the deaths .among the Jewish people?—-They are a little wide of the jnark. 17124. Do not you think these statistics are a little -wider?—No, because in the American statistics there tare an ascertained number of Jewish families. 17125. They did not take the Russo-Polish families, font all Jews?-—'They selected 10,000 families. 17126. (Sir Kenelm Uigby.) Dr. Shirley Murphy gave ssome remarkable figures ; you do not dispute them ?— No, but I say they are not likely to be .so reliable as -these American statistics, which are taken by Govern- ment and checked by Government. 17127. (Chairman.) The East End statistics are what V79 want ?—I wish the Government would let us havo them. Then I respectfully submit that the following objections against the Legislative restriction of alien immigration are worthy the consideration of the Com- mission : — 1. If effectual, so as seriously to diminish the aiumbers arriving for settlement— (a) It would exclude those who would become a par- ticularly valuable addition to the population of the country, for the Jew from Eastern Europe, it is almost universally conceded, is sober, thrifty, industrious, energetic, and capable; very loyal, and in the main orderly and law abiding. <&) It would drive valuable industries out of this country. ((c) Since the alien largely confines! himself to a few industries, and is rarely engaged in manual labour, as are the bulk of emigrants, restric- tion of immigration would probably not re duce emigration, which free immigration is said to cause. 17128. Is that from foreign countries or from here ?— ITrom here. A lurid picture has then been painted of a body of stalwart Englishmen going out, and a body; of ,attenuated Russian Poles coming in, as. if the one thing effected the other. As a matter of fact, one does not affect the other in the slightest degree. 17129. Then this emigration is our own emigration, .and not alien emigration?—No., our own emigrants. What lias been said is, that the alien immigrant drives out our own people, and causes emigration. Then (d&) the numbers arriving for settlement are actually in comparison so small that it is in a few districts only that the alien immigration is felt by the native popula- tion, and most often the immigrants are debited with troubles they do net even remotely cause, (e) It would he a reversal of the commercial policy of this country to artificially restrain free competition, and would have to be supplemented by drastic changes in that policy to which England owes her greatness. (0 It would wreak & hardship u-pon shipowners who derive a large income from migration. 6144. 2. If directed only against so-called "undesirables." Mr. L. J. (a) It would not diminish the cause of the com- Greet/berg. plaint, which is really directed against cap- 23 Mar. J 903. ables, and not against incapables. —--- (&) It would, however, feed the desire of those who wish to see capables excluded, including men like Mr. Arnold White, whose pro- fessed object in urging restrictive legislation is to diminish the strength of the Jewish. community Here. They will take a measure directed a-gainst " undesirables" as an in- stalment, and agitate for more. (c) It would inevitably exclude many " desirables " who would be classed as "undesirables," how- ever you denominate them. (d) It would wreak great hardship upon those who upon arriving here would be excluded under the definition of " undesirables," and are, after all, human beings, most often brought to being " undesirables " by wrong inflicted upon them. While in regard to certain persons who would fall under the denomina- tion the cruellest injustice would in most cases be done. 3. Any restrictive legislation. (a) Would be extremely difficult to carry into effect. Thisjhas been found to be the case in America with practically only four ports of entry, and one of them five times as im- portant as all the others. When I say five times as important, I mean five times as many people go in there as the other three put together. Hence America has had con- stant legislation, which as constantly has failed, as is evidenced by the continual call for fresh legislation. (b) Would largely defeat its own object, as it would be a permanent advertisement of the de- sirability of this country as a place for emi- gration, just as the measure of that champion of restrictive legislation, Sir Howard Yin- cent, in regard to foreign trade marks, is an advertisement for foreign goods. (c) Since the present agitation is directed against Jews, and it is Jews who' are sought to be excludied, it would tend to create anti- Semitism in this country, because it would always be regarded as anti-Jewish legislation. This has indeed resulted from restrictive legislation in the United .States, just as similar legislation there against the Chinese has fomented the feeling against them. (d) Would inevitably add to the religious persecu- tion Jews suffer in other countries, as if not closing, at least would make more difficult to enter, one avenue of escape. (e) Would surely have the effect of making it appear that England excuses, if she does not. condone, the treatment accorded to Jews in places like Russia and Roumania. And finally, speaking from the point of view of an Englishman, I say (f) The greatness of England in the eyes of the world has been largely won by her adherence to high ideals of human freedom, and the generous interpretation of human rights. She stands everywhere as the model of a free country. A yielding to an agitation everywhere outside England regarded as of anti-Semitic bias, a cramping and narrowing of her ideals within Chauvinistic lines, would cost her infinitely more in loss of prestige than can the worst results prognosticated by anti-aliens, as likely to arise from a con- tinuance in her present policy of free migration. None the less I recognise that there is a grievance to be met, although the grievance is entirely a factitious one. It has been fed by agitators, who, either not see- ing the real causes of people's troubles! or desiring to hide them, have raised up this bogey of an alien invasion of Jews from Eastern Europe. This immigration of Jews into England has become part of the much larger Jewish question, and that I hold must in the main be met by the efforts of Jews themselves, and upon lines not of charity or temporary expediency, not by measures 4 K626 ] ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. L. J. Y-h'eenbercj. for meeting merely the. needs of the hour, but upon broad and bold lines, by measures which can reasonably be looked to to* serve 'the distant;as well as the near 23 Mar. .1903. future. — England, however, Would be better employed than in ; back ?—No, he will not go back, but it will not form an attraction to him. 17158. He will go somewhere else ; he will not come- here ^He will not. come here. 17159. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you say, from the- economical point of view, that this country should receive everybody who chooses to come here ?-—'Yes. 17160. Everybody ?—Everybody. 17161. You would have no objection to Chinese or Hindoos coftiing ?-*—-No.' Hindoos are 'British subjects. 17162. None—None, 17163. In fact, according to you, we should let them all come—let everybody come who wants to^—Yes, let them all come;' :i' 17164. You do not think that these people crowding- into towns and places cause any hardship" to the people who are already' living there ?—I 'am not m favour of Overcrowding—do'hot let me be inistaken. 17165. But it implies overcrowding unless you make- provision for the number of people you are going toMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 627 receive 1—No, you may make laws to prevent over- crowding, and I should be very pleased to see those to; ]4gidly: enforced. 17166. As things -now stand there must be a con- siderable displacement of; the , native. population, by the^e ^people fining in?—You call it displacement ? M7167. What do you call it ?—Replacement. , You do .not^:tMn3fi-vit is a hardship to be re- -placed by somebody, else ?—No ; if I leave my house1 II care aaott very much who comes in after me. 173i69, in,fact, you;. think that the .people in S tepney, «or w^re^r ithese people ooane to, should welcome thom ^ith/opfen J,rms,:jandithey; should have no objection to ifcheir coming.: at; all in any numbers ?—kE think it is to thedniterest,of this country to keep free and open ports, 17170. (Chairman.) Is there no. point, in your opinion, at which hypothetically it could become an ^vSJr-No,i\[ tliiiiik that free immigration is a good prin- ciple^/ and any drawback in it cures itself. 17171. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say there are *5,000,000 or 6,000,000 of these people in Russia and . Poland ?—Yes. 17172., You would not mind seeing them all oome Ihere,?—It would be obviously next door t$ impossible. "The reason so many have gone to America is because the avenue for them in America is so much wider than the avenue for them ini England. People do not come lierei for the sake of coming here ; they come 'here for the purpose of bettering their condition. 17173. I think that is so. They come here more for that reason than because they are driven here ?—-It may not- be an active driving, but it is a. passive driving, if I may sc* call it. 17174. You say in one of your objections: " The Resent: agitation is; directed; against, Jews, and it is Jaws, who are sought to be exGliided." I deny that; "but supposing we accept that. Then you say, " It -would tend to create anti-Semitism in this country." Do you think an attempt to exclude people coming Zhere would create anti-Semitism more than allowing tan¥ unlimited number to come ?—Yes. 17175. You do?—Yes. 17176- You ; do not think. there is any, danger of ■anti-Semitism by their coming, in. excessive numbers ? —-I think it is pretty evident that wherever a large number of Jews com© together,, whether it be in Eng- land, America, or elsewhere, under present circum- stances, anti-Seanitism will sooner or later arise in one form or another. 17177. And you think that attempts to stop that ac- -cretion of population would also increase anti-Semi- tism ?—Yes. f , 17178. Both ways?—Yes. X7179, It is bound to increase whether you do any- thing or ;not ?—Yes. 1,7:180. You are ' between two stools, whatever hap- pens ?-^Yes, .ait present. 17181. You say the feeling against the Chinese has "been enhanced in . America bv the legislation stopping them coming in ?—'So I am told. 17182. It has increased it?—'Yes. . • 17183. I should have thought it would have increased it if they had been allowed to come in in unlimited numbers ?—No. ' 3-|7184. r(Mr. Vallance.) Do I.understand you to 'say that the ■ alien immigration has, not been a factor in tl^'.'overcrowding ,an4r high rents in the East-end1 o* X/qndon ?T—I said Xdid- not think it was the only or main, factor: • 17185. But a good deal of evidence has been given with. regard to, the displacement of native population "by'the aliens. Would you be prepared to. say that the 'Oner.Jby these aliens; of higher rents than the natives have been paying and the possibility of their over- -crowdiiig to the extent . they do have not been factors in the; . matter 1^—Yes, but I do not see why you dif- ferentiate between aliens and mtiye people. If there "is a house to let, whether it be taken bv .a native, or by an alien, I cannot see where the difference comes in. 17186.' It. has - been suggested that the 'conditions. Tinder which these aliens have lived in their own coun- try ,have fbeen such to make, overcrowding less ob- jectionable to them ?—Yes,, I said so myself. 17187. And as , the municipal authorities have not, Mr. L.J. been able to deal effectively with the overcrowding, G) emberg. they'have been able to pay higher rents ?—That has . — been stated. 23 Mar. 1903. I7I.88. (Chairman.) We have had evidence, that .the landlord; wishing to get more rent himself displaces the native tenant, and then lets the place at a higher rent. That is not the act of pushing out by the alien of the native, but it is the landlord wishing to get more rent from the alien who can afford to pay it by over- crowding. He takes the place and produces the result ? —As. to that, I think that is a matter that should be remedied entirely by .legislation, here either by the* local authority .or by, some general authority. I would not. allow overcrowding under any circumstances what- soever. . 17189. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you formed any opinion yourself as_ to the direction legislation should take to prevent this condition of overcrowding?—I think the present law, if strictly put in force, might do it. 17190. You think the; present law is sufficient ?—I think, from the evidence I have been able to gather here,, that if it were drastically taken in hand it might be done. 17191. Your evidence is in favour of the open door being upheld ?—Absolutely. 17192. Are there no classes of persons who are in- cluded among the alien immigrants who are not desir- able persons to be admitted into this country at all?— " Desirable " is such, a big word. I might consider;: one man desirable and another man might consider him undesirable. # 17193. Would you be in favour of restricting the introduction of persons suffering from physical or mental- diseases ?—What, physical diseases do yoi& refer to? 17194. Cripples, for instance?—If a person is a hopeless cripple and comes here he usually comes to some friend or relative.; Speaking, of our own Russian and Polish Jews, I think a cripple is a great rarity amongst them. . .. ' 17195. (Chairman.) Take an idiot?—With regard to idiots, that is rather a difficult matter. I have thought of that, and I think some arrangement should be made. Unless the idiot comes with some provision or some friends the onus should be placed on his Government from wherever he came of paying the cost of his maintenance in an asylum here. 17196. (Mr. Vallance.) Then you would restrict-his admittance into, the country ?-—No, I would not restrict his admission. Supposing the idiot comes here from Germany or from France- 17197. I do not understand what you mean by an undertaking by the Government of the country from which he came ?—Supposing that he came from Ger- many, and had absolutely no friend® to go to,' and was absolutely without means—it is rather a difficult case to imagine, because an idiot is always likely to have someone to take care of him—in that case I think an agreement should be made between this Government and the German. Government whereby the German Government should pay for his keep in Eng- land. 17198. That is .rather a stretch of imagination ?—-The whole thing is, .a stretch of imagination. I cannot ' imagine an idiot coming here at all without having any protection. 17199. (Sir Kenelm ,Vigby.) Bo they come in suffi- cient quantities to. make it worth while to introduce a great legislative change?:—No,. I think it is an excep- tional case altogether. 17200. You. used the expression .that immigration would bt? stopped by economic causes. Do these causes operate in any way to check immigration now?^- . Decidedly. 17201. And I suppose what we have to deal with is . the question of whether things have- got to such a pass already that legislation is wanted, or whether it is likely to get to such a.pass in the near future as far as one can foresee as to require legislation? We cannot qui te contemplate how mainy of these five or six million Russians and Poles might ultimately in a conceivable condition of things come to England, but we must look forward, to what is probable ?—I think it is no more. probable than that ten million Frenchmen will come here. I think it is very improbable. 4 K 2628 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. L. J. 17202. What is your view as to the probability of a Greenberg. great -increase in Jewish immigration %—I do not think - there will be an alarming increase. If you tell me what 23 Mar. 1903. is going to happen , in Russia, I shall probably be able - to tell you. It depends very much upon that. , 17203. You agree with the other witnesses who stated that it depended so much on other Governments?— Absolutely, in Russia and Bourn ania. 17204. (Chairman.) Is there not -a danger of your prophecy being upset if America were so to alter the law that virtually she was to ay they will not oome here ?—No, I .admit it is difficult. 17206. lit is surmise?—It must be difficult to gauge that; but, on the other band, the fact remains that there is no active pressure inducing them to leave. There is no edict, for instance, and it is only, after all, social or economic pressure which causes them to go; therefore if, for instance, England is overcrowded, and if they know—and you may be perfectly sure that they know very well indeed—whether they have a chance to better their condition in England or America, then they will go where they Have the best chance to get on. 172107. I do not know what you call social or economic pressure, but I should have thought your sympathy with the Jews in Busisia would have shown you that they had full ground for coming away?—It has a religious basis. 17208. I should have thought you would have said they were treated with the grossest harshness ?— Resulting in economic and social pressure. I have said it is dreadful. 17209. Is there anything more you would like to say to the Commission?—No, my Lord, nothing further. 17210. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I want to traverse one statement you made in your evidence, which I forgot to ask you about. You slay to> restrict all immigration will probably not reduce emigration, your point being that emigration from this country is not affected by the inflow from abroad ?—No, not directly. 17211. I want to tell you that I am connected with, and am on the committee of the East End Emigration Society. Do you know thaj; society ?—Yes, I have- heard of it. 17212. I have had a great deal to do with it, and L recently saw off a party of 130 people who were going abroad, and spoke to a great number of them. They nearly all said to me that the reason they were going- was because they were crowded out of their homes, ancfc the place was so full of foreigners that .all the smalL minor employments upon which they used to depani: had been taken away from them. They made that; statement ?—-I am extremely sorry to hear it. 17213. A large mass of people coming in must affect; the people who are .already here. You cannot get ricfc of that, and that is why I say one should not be startle!' or surprised at there being discontent at these people? coming in?—I am not startled or surprised at the dis- content ; all I say is, you will not cure that discontent, by restrictive legislation. 17214. (Chairman.) Should we cure their discontent if we could keep out the aliens—never mind by what- means ?—Obviously, if there is a complaint against the? aliens being in, and you can keep them out, you would" cure that complaint. 17215. You say you cannot do that by legislation, but let us. see if we can do- it by some means %—Legislation1 on reasonable lines. Legislation excluding so-called' undesirables would not do it. 17216. {Major Evans Gordon.) Then you say, sup- posing America was absolutely closed and the door shut, there, that there would riot be a reflex action here ?— There might to some slight extent, but the same number- would not come in here as go to America. 17217. What is the reason of their going to America? at all ?—The attraction off America mainly and the con- ditions under which they have to live in Russia. 17218. You say in terms it is the action of the Russian? Government which causes the emigration movement ?— And the attraction of America. 17219. The propulsive and the expulsive force?—Yes.. 17220. But then, if you -stop the attractive force,, and there is no place to go to, the expulsive force is: still there P—Yes, but the people will probably put up with it. 17221. {Chairman.) It is a measure between the two— the evils on the one side and the benefits on the other ?— Yes. 17222. {Major Evans Gordon.) We know enormous: numbers do put up with it and do very well ?—Yes. 17223. We are not tapping the great many millions ?— No, it is really the few. Mr. Harry 8. Lewis, called; and Examined. Mr. H. S. 17224. {Lord Bothschild.) You have lived in White Lewis. chapel for the last twelve years ?—'About eleven yeans. 17225. You know the Jewish poor, and you have been a teacher and manager of various schools in the neigh- bourhood ?—Yes. 17226. You are a member of the Stepney Borough Council, and with Mr. Russell you were joint author of " The Jew in London " ?—Yes. 17227. I believe you wish to give some evidence here, and you came voluntarily to give this evidence ?—Yes. 17228. The Commission will be delighted to hear it, only there is one point I want to call your attention to. We have had a great deal of evidence with regard to the number of Jews in certain streets and how they have displaced former residents- there. I do not know that it is necessary to.go all over that ground again. {Chairman.) No, not in detail; just come to the point. 17220. {Lord Rothschild.) Berhaps you will read your paper and make any remarks you wish to make ?—There are certain papens I have prepared on isolated points. First, with regard to the growth off population in Stepney compared with that of other metropolitan (boroughs in the inner ring of London. " The tables submitted, with some charts which I forwarded to the secretary, are intended to show that the metropolitan , boroughs adjacent to the City are declining in population except' (1) Southwark, where the population, previously cm the increase, has been stationary in the period 1896- 1901; (2) Bethnal Green, where the population is prac- tically stationary: (3) Sitepney, where there is a con- siderable increase of population. The land adjacent to the City has become so valuable that it no longer pay& to use it for dwelling houses, and it is now built on for business purposes. The high rents paid by Jews in the Borough of Stepney make that district exceptional, and it continues to- be residential." 17230. {Chairman.) In -all the boroughs adjacent to the City except Southwark and Bethnal Green ?—Yes,, those two are stationary, and the others are decreasing, with the exception of Stepney, as, for example, Holbom and Westminster. 17231. What do you attribute the exceptional con- dition otf Stepney to?—To the advent of the Jewis! population, and I say if the Jewish population had not come there, there would have been to a considerable exte-nt a displacement of population just the same, but a displacement oif population for business purposes, rather than as has now happened, the substitution of Jews for Gentiles. 17232. There probably would have been a decrease in. population instead of an increase ?—Yes, but my point is that the displacement of population that you see in* Stepney is not due entirely to the Jews. 17232*. {Lord Bothschild.) If the Jews had not beeit there, do you mean there would have been displacement just the same?—To some extent. {Chairman.) I should call that a falling off in popula- tion—houses taken down and different things of the kind ; but here there has been an increase of popula- tion, and not a decrease. (Lord Bothschild.) An increase in Stepney ; but the witness's point, as I understand, is that if the foreigner'MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 629 had not come there, there would have been a decrease of population, because the houses would have been used for business purposes. That is Mr. Lewis's argument. (Chairman.) We are agreed on that. 17233,. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) And also, I understand, the rents would have risen to some extent owing to the growth of factories, and so on ?—The rents would have lisen pretty nearly as much as now, only the houses would have been used in a different way, and very lively some of the people who were turned out of their homes in order that factories should be built in their place would have felt just as aggrieved as they do now when tfiey are turned out by Jews taking their places. 17234. (Chairman.) But the people had been turned out by factories), and now the introduction of the aliens las turned out an additional quantity, but it is ir addition to the displacement by the alteration of the houses ?—I do not think so. 17235. Why? Yes. The alien immigrants have come in 1— 17236. They are living in Stepney ?—Yes. 17237. They have taken possession of the houses ?— Yes. 17238. Who would have lived there if they did not ?— If the Jews had not lived there the houses would pro- bably have gone, and we should have had more business premises. 17239. When yon say they would have been taken down, why should they have been kept up because the alien immigrants have come there, unless the rents are very much higher?—That is no doubt the cause. 17240. (Lord Rothschild.) Your point is that the over- crowding by aliens, and the rents the aliens pay, enable their houses to be kept up there, which otherwise would have been turned into factories to make more rent than the original person who lived there could pay P-^-Yes. 17241. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It has maintained the district as a residential district?—Yes. 17242. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What reason have you for saying that people would have gone in any case to the East End of London, right on the confines of the City?—Because I see in the other confines of the City that same process is taking place—that is to say, that dwelling-houses are going right and left, and being replaced by business premises. 17243. Both processes are going on ?■—Yes. 17244. But surely there always- must be an enormous desire to- live in a place like Stepney, which has been a dwelling-place for many years, owing to the immense number of callings that necessitate people living there'? —But some of those callings are going. 17245. The river is not going, the docks are not going, and the lightermen are not going?—But, forgive me, a good deal of the trade of the Thames is moving further down the river. It is going from the London Docks to Millwall, for example, or to Tilbury, so in that sense it lfc going. Then to continue my statement: " The high rents paid by Jews in the borough of Stepney make that district exceptional, and it continues to be resi- dential. Even in Stepney a considerable number of houses have been demolished to make room for factories, warehouses, etc., but this change has been more than counterbalanced by the vastly increased size of the dwelling-houses now built. " The process by which an increased population is accommodated in a given area is illustrated by the houses now being built in Finch Street, Casson Street, Batty Street, Christian Street, etc. It is also well to note that the borough of Stepney comprises the four former administrative areas—White- chapel, St. George's, Mile End, and Limehouse. The first three of these are becoming increasingly Jewish and are increasing in population. The fourth of these areas contains few Jews, and, although further from the City, is declining in population. However much, there- fore, one may regret the displacement of English-born by foreigners in Stepney^ it is probable that if the latter had not come into the district the inhabitants formerly resident there would still have been removed in order to make room for factories and warehouses, as in other central parts of London." 17246. (Chairman.) Now we have to weigh the ad- vantage or disadvantage of factories, because we should have had factories as against the aliens ?—Yes, I think so. Then I have written something on the growth of Jewish population in Whitechapel, Mile End, and Limehouse. " The western parts of Whitechapel an I jj $ SpitaJiields and. the part o± tlie City adjacent do them Lewis. constitute the oldest centre of J ewisii population; — wesit of Commercial Sweet and Leman street there 23 Mar. 1903 has been lor .generations a large Jewish settlement. In this area we have in very many streets a prepon- derance of Englisn-born Jews. In the Tenter Ground of Spitailielas, we tind a number of Jews of Dutcu origin, born m England, or resident here for many years, mainly engaged as hawsers or cigar-makers. There is, however, a tendency in parts of this area for the English-born Jew to be replaced by uio foreigner. East of Commercial Street and Leman Street there have been great changes. Before 1880, only a few streets, such ias Fashion Street, were Jewish bo a preponderating extent. Tne demolition of an insanitary area by the Metropolitar Board of Works, and the erection in 1883 ana following years of Roth- schild Buildings and other model dwellings afforded accommodation for large numbers of Jews. It is notice- able, however, thfat College Buildings and St. George's House, erected under this scheme, and accommodat- ing about 300 persons, continue to be entirely Chris- tian, and Lolesworth Buildings, also erected under the same scheme, and accommodating about 548 persons, were originally entirely Christian, and are now only becoming Jewish by slow degrees." That is an ex- ample of how you have not the displacement, which I agree yoo. have in some cases, but also replacement, because there you have dwellings belonging to the East London Dwellings' Company, who would not turn out, anybody, and yet, from the natural growth of popu- lation and the natural history of the district, the ten- dency is for the Christian's to be slowly replaced by Jews. " Since 1883 a number of demolitionis of dis- reputable property, east of Commercial Street, have led to the erection of model dwellings, such, as Strafford House tand Nathaniel Buildings, occupied by a popula- tion almost entirely Jewish." 17247. (Lord Rothschild.) In Nathaniel Buildings, I think, they are half and half 1—I should think about three-quarters. " The streets east of Brick Lane have become much more Jewish during the last 15 years. (The early steps of this process are described in ' Labour and Life of the People,' London (East), page 546.) This h;as partly happened through a gradual replace- ment, without change of ownership, or increase of rent. In Chicksand Street and adjacent courts, in Pauline Terrace and Great Garden Street there are numerous examples, e.g., in houses belonging to Mr. Miitcheson and Mr. Tilley. After a certain number of foreign Jews come into a street there is a tendency on the part, of the original population to remove if they can find- accommodation elsewhere." I have a letter which I might produce, which would be of some interest in< that connection, showing, although it iis against the-. foreign Jew, the processes that occur in some cases. It was written last spring by a Christian tenant to> his landlord, saying that so many Jews are coming into the district that he finds it necessiary in conse- quence to move. It refers to Russell Street, Stepney : " Dear Sir,—No doubt you will be surprised to hear that I am thinking of giving up the house, but the neighbourhood is so bad now it is crowded with the foreigners that I shall try and get further away. My wife has been to look at some houses to-day at East Ham, and she gave your address for a reference, so no • doubt you will hear from the agents some time this. week. We made up our minds to go in a hurry, or the- wife would have told you on Monday, but our own people are leaving the street, and I cannot stand the foreigners. Hoping this will meet with your approval, I remain,, yours truly"—I will not read the signature,. That is to a large extent prejudice, but it does illus- trate, I think, the kind of feeling which has some- thing to do with the replacement of population. " On the other hand, striking examples can be given of the displacement of English tenants within the White- chapel area through the change of ownership and in crease of rents. The following cases may be cited : — (a) 1-19B, and 20-29, North Place. This property be- longed to Mr. Link, and was occupied by English tenants. On the death of the owner, it was sold by the executors to Messrs. N. and R. Davis, who raised the rents from 10s. to 16s. The houses are now occu- pied by foreigners. A rent of 20s. is now required from new tenants, (b) 4-48, Durward Street." 17248. (Chairman.) We will not go into these details. Cannot you summarize them?—They are all of that same nature. 17249. We will take your view of the result?—On-630 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION *. Mr 11 & page 8 of my statement I say: " In the extreme south Lewis. W'hitechigel 'there are very f e w Jews, 'and the owners 30C1 certain model dwel|iiigs, in all parts of the district, 23 Mar. 1903. seldom take th§m, as tenants. Among such dwellings there are Pfeaibo4y Bundiiigs/Blaekwall Buildings, Me- tropolitan Buildings, Jii some streets of Whitechapel the advent of the foreign tenant has brought about a distinct change for the better. This is not only true in the Flower and Dean Street area, where rebuilding has taken plade, but it also holds good of many houses in Greatand' Little 'Pearl - Street, in Vine Courts and GrayE3gle.'"3tre3t, and in a part- of Old Montague Street, "whsre, i expectable and hard-working foreigners have ^eplac?,*! a^ rough or even vicious. population.'' Then I sujbijut that is a different kind of process, ,from wh^t. has bf^i pited g,s occurring in different p;arfe ,ol, London. Xou may say when you haye had a house pulled down and model dwellings put in the place of the hous^,. tlxat tha,^ is in itself a cause for improvement, but^hey^iypu ^a^jei.tiie same houses, some of them still in a^.i^sani&p- state, but filled now with an entirely respectable; population. . . 17250. That is part of Whitechapel ?—That is part of /"Spitalfields. 17251. Has that, anything to do with aliens?—Yes, I -ithirik so. Sormerly Great and Little Pearl Streets were very bad indeed, in fact, in Mr. Charles Booth's map , of London poverty, it is painted black, and,, inf fact, a little bit of it is still bad now, but the greater pai^t of it is la^-abiding and quiet/ 17252- Is that inhabited by the aliens • ?■—Yes. At any Tate, from the time, the aliens came into it the change took place. 17253. {Major Evans-Gordon.) When you get a whole- sale displacement of population street by street, you displace good and bad at the same time ?—I should have thought in a court like Yine Court, Little Pearl Street, there were very few good indeed. 17254. The1 good streets and the bad are affected just ttbe same as if there is displacement; the good people go and the bad people go. You must take it as the jsame thing with the dwellings ?—In that corner of Spital- fiel&s the change has been distinctly for the good, I . should have thought. " The same statement holds good of other parts of the Borough of Stepney, but it only represents part of the truth. In such cases as that of Durward Street, mentioned above, the change has cer- tainly been for the worse, and the increased rents paid involve more, overcrowding than formerly existed." 17255. (Sir. Kenelm Dighy.) Do you mean only in that sort of way by way of increased overcrowding the change has been for the. worse or in the character?—They are respectable, people, but they are people who have a lower standard of living in the matter of overcrowding, and I should say the same thing applies to a good number of streets in Major Gordon's constituency in precisely the same way when we get east of the New Road. " The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town comprises the two Parlia- mentary divisions^ Stepney and Mile End. The former of these is rapidly becoming Jewish. To the west of the New Road the change is practically complete, and only in Myrdle Street and Fprdham Street do Christians remain in considerable numbers. In such streets as Plumber's Row and Yalford Street rents have greatly increased." 17256. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Are there many in Myrdle Street ?—The Board School has, diminished the =■ houses on t$e east. side ; there are a few of them gone, but there is still a considerable number.. East,• of the . New Road the Change is more recent, but promises to become no less sweeping,. Nelson Street and Yarden Street , are already , almost entirely foreign., Warden Street, Rutland Street, and Newark Street have a popu- lation wiiiclv is now about half foreign. 17257. Thefc6:, streets are all in my constitutency and are all well knowpa to me P-^Yes. " But the new houses, built vby Messrs. Davis Bros, and by Mr. W. J. Cook, are entir&ly so 17258. (Chairman.) Do you want the details ?-T^-T-r; , (Major. tThey interest ^ nae-P-r- " There have (been rapid changes in Antcliff. Street, Newbold Street, -andr .Br^mhead Roadjthel^ of which appears to be now entirely foreign. . A striding exaotripleoif Vj&c&rifr' (bhslnge's„ is afforded by 43, 45, and 47, -Philpot "Street. ^ Here the tenants, of wiiom two had lived in the houses for over 30 years, were replaced by foreigners in February, 1902, on a change of owner- ship. The rents-of No,s* 43 and 47 have been raised from £35 a year (tenants paying rates) to 30s. a week (landlord 1 paying rates); The changes in this neighbourhood a$e mainly for the worse.; sub-letting and consequent over- crowding are on the increase. On the other hand, certain, streets, such as Adelina. (irrove and John's Place, have, lost their former disreputable .character. In the north-east of the Stepney division, the changes1 are less marked. In such places as Leslie Street,. Cecil Street, Calverley Street,. and Beaumont Square, the Jewish population is of long standing and mainly of English birth. The clearances by the Metropolitan Board of Works in the.,Middlesex Street area in 1882-T involved the displacement of Jews mainly, and many or them then removed to this part of Stepney. In some streets, however, east of White Horse Lane there has been a recent extension of tlie foreign population. Thus, on one side of Cadiz Street, the rents of some houses . have been raised from 9s. 6d. to 16s. and 16s. 6d. each, and foreigners are coming in." 'r (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not know what you say, Lord Rothschild,, whether you want all these particulars about all these different streets ?- (Lord Bothschild.) No, they have been given over and over again ?- 17259. (Major . EtvansvGordon.) Your f knowledge of the place is so great, I think, it would be sufficient if you summarised these parts of your evidence. , What is your general conclusion with regard to Stepney and Mile End ?—With regard to the Mile End Parlian^n- tary Division, there has been very little change indeed, and in regard to the.Limehouse Division, there-has been no change at all in Wapping and not very much in the parish of Limehouse. , There have been one or two striking cases; of displacement in Ratcliffe and in Shad- well^—a few streets into which foreigners have come to a very considerable extent. 17260. And in Albert Square there has been whole- sale displacement?—Yes. There is only one Christian family left in Albert Square. 17261. Altogether, in all that region of London there has been a great displacement?—Yes. Then I have pre- pared a memorandum of the influence of alien immi- gration on St. George's in the East. 17262. (Chairman.) Can you summarise that?—1 should like to read it, because witnesses have given evidence before the Commission and said that St. George's used to be a Paradise. That is quite con- trary to the fact. " The staple industries in St. George's before 1875 were riverside labour and sugar- refining, Long before that day the better class of in- habitants had ceased to reside in the parish (see report of the Medical Officer of St. George's for year 1873), al- though still carrying on business there. The London and St. Katharine's Docks gave employment to many, there being a great demand, for casual labour in prosperous times. There was, however, a terrible pinch of poverty whenever there occurred a stoppage of the shipping at the docks, and the Medical Officer of St. George's, in his report for 1858, alludes to the alarming increase of the death rate, through want and destitution aris- ing from this cause. Overcrowding in St. George's, existed long before the advent of the foreign Jew. In the report of the Medical Officer for 1861, he writes : — 'From local circumstances and the class of the bulk of the inhabitants, as wells as from, their cpnditipn and occupation,' overcrowding must, I fear, jbe to a certain extent unwillingly submitted to in our densely popu- lated and not over-healthy district.' In his report for, 1873 he accounts for. the high' proportion of deaths of , the young by the hostile influence of overcrowding and want of cleanliness in the homes of the people. In his report for, 1875 .he describes certain unhealthy areas,, such -as, Qrown Court (Qld Gravel Lane) and Perseverance Place, where it required 15 or 20 con- stables to enforce a closing order that had been given by the magistrate. Of London Terrace, he writes as follows: —' The tenants here, were some of the poorest, of , the poor, and often indecent oc- I cupati.on and , overcrowding were discovered. In one case I found, an old man living and • sleeping with four women in the same room. ., . . There was general filthiness prevail- ing, and the children, unwashed, and nearly naked, were in one case thrust into the closet to mislead us in ascer- taining the population as to overcrowding.' Of All- sopp's Place, he writes:— On visiting the premises wi% the inspector, found one top room occupied by aMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 631 -woman in a fearful state of filthines®. I believe she had not left the apartment lor any purpose oi common necessity for a long time.' Overcrowding was as dim- cult to detect then as now. , In 1879, the medical officer writes:—'in the worst parts of the parish, we have always found the greatest possible de-sire to minimise in their statements the number inhabiting the houses, lest they should come under the head of overcrowding." In 1877 I find the first allusion in official sources to the appearance of the foreign J ew in this parish. Speak- ing of improper dwellings, the medical officer writes as follows : —■' One of the properties, consisting of five houses, for which an order was obtained from the magis- trate for the closing thereof, as being unfit for human habitation, was closed accordingly. An outlay of money converted the property very ingeniously into houses suitable for one iamily. They have been taken by thai industrious class, the foreign Jew. The alteration con- sisted of making the fronts of the houses look the other way, and the former front doors, which were entered from London Terrace, have been blocked up, and an entrance obtained from Morgan Street. . .1 don't think that in their former best days; whenever! tliey were, that they ever displayed anything like the air of comfort they nowt show.' This favourable notice is fol- / lowed by the Medical Officer, 'in his report for 1880, with the following note^ It is surprising the great immu- -nity enjoyed by Hebrews in; the matter of infectious disease. Among the poorest and leiast cleanly -there is one season of the year in which a thorough turn-out and cleansing of the dwellings and utensils takes . place. This can scarcely be isaid of all o^her poor families.' Before 1880 many streets in St.' George's Were* thoroughly disreput- able. The condition of R&tcliff Highway {now... St. .....George's; Street-) :was. notorious, and neighbouring.streets and oourtSj 'Such ais Ship Alleys Artichoke; Hill, and Nep- ;.tune Street, ivere fiMied with sailors' brothels. , In the north-west of the parish, there was also much vice. ^Br^s^/igk Street,: now eiitirely , tenanted : by foreign Jews, was; known as Tigei?: Bay*. an,d enjoyed ipk .iwien- .viable .notoriety. Other streets, such as Kinder Street ind.^M^tilda 'Street,' 'were nearly feq^kll^'bad. In the report of the Vestry for 1881, we read that 'ahinfluehtial deputation of parishioners waited ttpon the Vestry in - reference 'to the large number Of ■ disorderly houses in - >*•There does not appear toi-haive been much iri^ligation: tG' grapple with the evil, for the report goes •,oiy< tp state as follows :—•' This is^ a subject which has frequently demanded «and received much anxious con- ,sid$?atio carry on a crusade against the wKoK ^las^ as ktahe apparently now desire. It > has been ge^rilly5 believed that no action on the part'of the parish, would completely extirpate them.' Owing to i chmges te'th^ char^oter of the population, there are - &oWs ^ver*y^ few disreputalble houses in the parish. It itm&y be' > noted that Sundays trading existed in- St. George's before the foreigners came. In the report of the Vestry for 1874, we read The subject.of.Sunday trading -has receiyed considerable attention during the vear Tke only practibal 'result, however, was the ap- pointment of a deputation to th^ Horiie Secretary to re- present that the law; administered by the magistrates was utisatmf&ctoiry,aihd required amendmeait by increas- ing £he penalties imposed by theSt^te'ofrGharles 11. -The deciirie of the Port of London and the rapid ex- tinction of the sugar: industry produced gaps m the parish, which were filled up by foreign Jews, who became an' increasingly numerous class of the popula- tion rafter 1880. The actual facts relating to the north- west of the parish, as derived from the ratebooks, are dealt with in a separate memorandum, but a tgw general observations may here be made. The foreigner ciame at first to fill the vacuum, created by the re- moval of those engaged in dying induce®, .and .hjs arrival was for a time unnoticed." I should like to add that even before the foreign- Jew cametherewas a considerable number of foreigners in ^t,-Georges, I ha^e here an old Parliamentary Register, which, I think, shows that quite clearly. 17263. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What were they?— n lv remain in con- siderable numbers in such places as. Severn© Street and Mary Ann Street, which have long remained under the same ownership. I may add that the records of the■. mediaal officer' of St. George's show that a number of courts were, from time to time, closed either by the magistrate's order or by pressure on the owners;,. r They were, then repaired and relet. The effect of this: was always to bring in a foreign population in plac.:. , of ran-English , one. ./For the evils arising through . foreign overcrowding, the remissness of the vestry was . largely responsible. The character of their adminis- tration had attracted public attention in 1884, when Sir Lyon Playfair stated in Parliament that ' the- mortiality of the parish, compared with that of the worst of cities,' and when Mr. Glad- stone 1 is quoted as having made similar comments \ on the high death-rate. (See Report • of Vestry for ,1885.)" The Medical Officer, in his report for 1887, alludes to the difficulty in enforcing proper regulations owing to the constant influx of pauper foreigners, " who coming from countries where ideas of sanitation are jjrimitive render sanitary measures very difficult of execution," but the vestry had a staff of only two sani- tary inspectors until 1892. A third was' appointed in. that year, and a fourth in 1899. Towards the end of the vestry's existence they were disposed to deny altogether the existence of serious overcrowding. The- following- passage occurs in the Report of the Medical Officer for 1899—that is Dr. Reigate, who has been already called. 17266. (Chairman.) Cannot you say what the effect of this is? This is in very great detail ?—He says there is practically no overcrowding at all. I should like just to read that extract * "During the years 1898-9 84 houses have been inspected at unusual hours, with the result that except that in one or two instances no gross overcrowding was found th^it might be con- sidered to be of an extreme character. The overcrowd-. ing that was discovered was for the most part caused' by there being an excessive number- of children belong- ing to the same family in some of the rooms of the houses thus inspected. All the cases were carefully considered, and where the overcrowding could be abated -without unduly- pressing bn! the wage-earner- steps were'taken to abate it." ThebeStcomment on this statement is supplied by the evidence already submitted to the Commission on the stibject of over- crowding in this ^ari^hl" Then I gb on to say that the St. George's VeStry in 1892 passed a resolution that in view of the cholera outbreak some steps ought to be taken by the Government to restrict alien immi- gration^ but, as; a matter of fact, both with regard to, cholera and with regard to the recent small-pox epi- demic, there has been a remarkable immunity amon?- the aliens. (The witmss Withdrew.) ■ -632 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : THIRTY-NINTH DAY. Thursday, 26th March, 1903. PRESENT : The Eight Hon. Lord James of Hertford {Chairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon m.p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. Harry S. Lewis, recalled; further Examined. Mr. E. S. Lewis. 26 Mar. 1903. (Witness.) Might I, in the first instance, hand m these; charts ? This one illustrates the way in which the population of the central regions of London stand. 17267. (Chairman.) Is this the general population? —This is the general population of all the boroughs in the central ring of London, showing that they are all diminishing in population now, with the1 exception of Southwark, Bethnal Green, and Stepney. Southwark and Bethnal Gree>n are now stationary, and Stepney is still increasing in population. Then I have here another chart which refers to the four old sanitary areas into which the borough of Stepney is divided, showing that they are all increasing, with thei excep- tion of Limehouse. 17268. Stepney is the only borough which is increas- ing. It is no use entering into detail ?—No, my Lord. (Lord Bothschild.) I understood you did not care about any evidence with regard to the population. (Chairman.) Yes ; it is important, I think, to show that Stepney is the only borough increasing. 17269. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The importance of com- paring Limehouse is that in Limehouse there is com- paratively a small alien population ?—Yes, that is the point I meant to bring out. 17270. And there it is diminishing?—Yes. Then there is a third chart in which I take two civil parishes, namely, the parish of Christ Church, Spitalfields, and the parish of St. Mary's, Whitechapel, and I show there that you have an increasing population, and at the same time a diminishing number of inhabited houses. 17271. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you take the Census definition of an " inhabited house " ?—Yes. 17272. That is very confusing?—It is confusing to some extent, because the houses are so much bigger. Then on page 19 of my statement I have a memorandum on the growth of the Jewish population of St. George's (Upper Division West). I hesitate almost in reading the whole of this to the Commission. 17273. (Lord Bothschild.) It is hardly necessary to •compare the number in each street, but the impression you wish to convey to the Commission is that St. George's was a diminishing population before the Jews '<5a-me there?—No, I do not think that is a fact. (The witness subsequently wrote: "My statement was not - quite accurate. The population of St. George's in the East increased until the year 1861, when it was 48,891. It then slowly declined, until in the year 1891 it was .....45,795. It has since again increased, doubtless owing to alien immigration, and was 49,068 in the year 1901.") 17274. St. George's was not one of those places ?— 1 The population was almost stationary before then, as far as my remembrance goes, and it has been increasing ^considerably since that time. 17275.# What you wish to convey to the Commission "is that if it had not been for* the Jewish influx into "St. George's the population would have remained stationary ?—Yes, I think that is so. 17276. Therefore you would say that the overcrowd- ing in St. George's was due to the influx of the Jewish population ?—-I think the overcrowding in St. George's was mainly due to the neglect of the St. George's Vestry. 17277. (Chairman.) But do not you agree with Lord Rothschild that it was the immigration which produced the increase ?—I think the immigration would not have produced that increase if when new needs arose the proper precautions had been taken by the local authorities. 17278. To repress or to build?—To repress over- crowding. 17279. That is to keep the immigrants out ?—To keep out an undue number of persons of any kind. 17280. And the undue number that have come in, according to your statement, are the immigrants?— That is so. I think it would have been quite unobjec- tionable if they had com© in, provided overcrowding had been prevented. 17281. If there had been room for them to come in, of course, there would be no objection?—No. 17282. (Lord Bothschild.) You said that St. Georges was stationary before the Jewish immigration?—To the best of my memory that is so. 17283. And you now say there is overcrowding in St. George's ?—Yes, I think there was overcrowding before. 17284. Is there still more overcrowding now or not? —I am not in a position to say whether it is more or less. 17285. Do you think thei overcrowding in St. George's is due to neglect on the part of the authorities ?—Yes, I do, certainly. 17286. How could they have prevented it ?—By pro- ceeding against the offenders with regard to the over- crowding. 17287. It is not necessary to go into each street, I think?—Perhaps I may confine myself to handing in pages 24, 25, and 26, which give the existing state of things in 1900, and omit the remainder. ("Analysis of Rate Book for St. George's (Upper Division West) in 1900 (premises of limited com- panies and institutions omitted). Number Number Name of Street. of of Jews. Christians. Back Church-lane 24 10 Splidtz-steeet - 4 16 Prince of Orange-court 1 2 Philip-street - 9 12 Pinchin-street - 2 12 Mary Ann-street _ 29 Severne-street - 2 26 Queen's-place _ 4 Stutfield-street - 4 13 Ellen-street - 43 16 Ellen-court - 2 1 Ellen-place - 2 9 Globe-court - _ 8 Everard-street - 48 Boyd-street - 43 7 Gloucester-buildings 33 Fairclough-street 22 7 Brunswick-street 30 1MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 633 Name of Street. IS umber Prqv$efi"ce-street - Batty-gardens - - - San^fer-street - - - Satidei'-street buildings - Comfriercial-road, East (62 -340 and 373-383) - Bdrrfgr'-stfeet - - - - Batty-street - Priestley-buildings - Christian -street - Turner's-buildings - Matilda-street - - Matilda-place - - Durer-place Grove-street - Meredith- uildings - * - St/ George's-terrace - TJmberston-street - Cross-street - -.. Morgan-street - Western passage - v - Bowyers-buildings - - Little Turner-street - Bichard-street - - - Bichard-court - Jane-street - Anthony-street - - -> Jane-court Winterton's buildings, Anthony- street- - - Walburgh-street W alburgh-court - - - Cannon-street road (North of Cable-street) - Norman's - buildings - Montefiore-house Kinder-street - - - - Saiter-street -• - . - Sly-street - - - -" Barnett-street - James-street JamiiSrcourt - - Langdale-street •• Langdale-place - - - West's-folly - William^street - - - Amber-place Marmaduke-plac e - - John-street - Challis-court - Samuel-street - - Elijah-cottages- - Waterloo-court - - - Wellington-buildings - - Ficklin-buildings - Berney-buildings Number of Christians. 34 3 16 3 5 2 8 m 68 55 12 21 Q 4 O 64 15 4 - 4 1 4 - 1 8 79 24 8 , - 28 4 52 13 7 • - 54 5 4 4 • 1 35 1 27 - 43' 2 1 38 33 43 55 3 - 18 6 32 - 4 70 34 5 2 16 4 36 1 4 ■ 7 — 4 - 20 6 12 1 41 7 3 , - 1 1 30 . 8 1 ... 2 7 1 6 22 20' 1 38" 7 2 1 21 ■- 13 - 31 - 17288. You have preparedpage 29 ?—On pages 27 and 28 I give a transcript of the inhabitants of Everard Street5 in 1880J and my objectw&s to refute the state- ment of one of the witnesses^^^ Commission,' who said her^ir^ea^BerM the1^tirii^wheir.EVejrard Street -coii- taifred ' aii entirely English population. 3: I submit that was never the case. 17289. What you want to prove is that the population in St. George's was not entirely English 20 years ago V —Or longer back still. 17290.' And therefore you say that the question of the aliens in the East End is not a question of'to-day, but a question of 20, or 30, or 40 years ago ?—That is so, my Lord,-except that, of course, it has been rendered much more acute in recent years. 17291i In order to prove that you have handed in cer- tai& t&bljes/ wMch L rieed: not examine you upon at pre- sents '1 I will5 now go to page 29 of your statements You ha've thfere 'given some figures which serve to measure th# employment of foreign labour in certain industries ? —That is so. 17292. You say that in the year 1901 there were 31,000 male tailors in London, and 13,157 were foreigners, and there were 33,114 females, of whom 3,473 were foreigners ?—That is so. fU44 17293. So that according to those tables the English wom6n work more at the tailoringstrade thaft'th& forfe%h women ?—Many more. • 17294. You also say that there were 2,522 clothiers and outfitters, of whom 64 were foreign'erg/ and 955 females, of whom nine were foreigners ?^That' is sb*"v Those are the figures taken from the 190i Census ! 17295. You -also say : " The ■ term / tailor A iii . the Census,of 1891 included both ' tailor' and ' clothier out- fitter.' We thus have the following comparative table, showing the expansion of the trade in London during the last 10 years." That is to say, in 1901 :they differentiated between "tailors" and "outfitters," whil& in 1891 they were all included under one head ?—That'' is so. 17296. In 1891 there were 27,474 male tailors, and; in 1901 33,911. The number of female tailors in 1891 was' 24,872, and in 1901 34,069; that is to say, the total in ( 1891 was 52,346, and the total in 1901 was 67,980*?^—• That is so, my Lord. I should like to explainJthat therfe:-; is this difficulty in making comparisoris bitWeen 1891: ' and 1901, that in 1891 we have in the Census nb tables.* giving the ritimber of foreigliers engaged4 in 'any !par^ ' ticular industry. 17297. (Chairman.) All this comes to nothing unless" we show the comparative increase of the immigrants between 1891 and 1901?—I deal with that in the next sentence. • • 1 17298. I see what you say, but you do not! give the •fig-tires. I want ther figures, if you can give them, from the ' Census Returns of the people engaged in those trades amongst the alien immigrants?—Unfortunately in : 1891; the published figures of the Census do not give, them; / ... 17299. (Mr. Vallance.) Lord James wants to -know first how we get those figures in the Census-Bieturns for: 1901 ?—They are there stated 13/146 male tailors. ,.» 17300. (Chairman.) But I want' the' alien immiL grants. • ■« ' (Major Evans-Gordon.) You cannot get that because* they were not specified in the previous decade. • 17301. (Chairman.) But in 1901 tK'ey were specified?- —Foreigners. (Chairman. ).We call them. alien immigrants. (Lord Rothschild.) lit 190L Mr* Lewis says there ^ere»-( 13,157 male foreigners engaged in the tailoring trade,-, while in 1891 there were Oiily 27,000. His argument, is whether it is, right 9r. wrong^ that 6,437 more men have been employed, the number representing far more than the probable increase of foreigners." 17302. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What does all, this tend .to ?—It tends to show that you-have had an ex- pansion in the tailoring trade which cannot be ac- counted for entirely by the increase in the: number of foreigners engaged in the trade. With regard to' tailoresses, that is perfectly plain, because'you have only 3,473 alien immigrants engaged in 1901, and the^ increase in the'number of tailoresses during the decade; is more than the whole number of foreigners now so. employed. 17303. (Lord Rothschild.) Your argument is that the London tailoring trade, employs more hands now than. 10 years ago, and that the increase m the number is., greater than the foreigners who' arrive ?—Yes. (Chairman.) But it is the probable increase. It is a. pity we have not got the actual figures. 17304.' (Lord JRotJischild.) The boot and shoe trade in London, you say, is declining?—The boot and shoe trade in the county of" London. 17305. Before yon go to the figures, cam you give any reason for the decline in the boot trade ? Is it owing to the boot trade' of the provinces, or isi it owing to the- American competition which has taken the* export trade ?—I think that those causes and others have- something to do with it. The increase of - the American trade evidently is on.e of the; determining; factors,, because I find from the Statistical Abstract issued by the Board of Trader that the import of: American boots, into England is very materially increasing. 17306/> We have had those: figures^ They are .not very • large ?—In 1887 there were only 140,000 dozen ;* in 1889 100,000 dozen^ 'and now there are 297,504 dozen- pair-, of b(>ots imported. 173071 The great American trade is to our Colonies now, I am told, and to neutral markets ?—Yes. 4'L Mr. H. & Lewis} 26 Mar. 1903-EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mn U. S. Leans. 2G Mar. 1903. 17308. (-Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you know what the total production of dozens of pairs of boots m England is No, I do not. 17309. (Major Evans-Gordon.) This importation of boots is quite insignificant compared with our produc- • tion. There are about 40,000,000 pairs of boots made in England ?—Then I come to the number of pairs of boots exported from the United Kingdom. 17310. (Chairman.) This is going too much in detail. Perhaps you can generally state what in your opinion are the causes of the falling off in the number employed. Of course, there is machinery for one thing, and the removing of factories to Leicester and Northampton, and so on ?—Yes. 17311. {Lord Rothschild.) You wish to point out that the boot trade of London differs from the clothing trade in that it is a declining trade?—That is so. May I sap K)ne other thing aibout the boot and shoe trade ? The number of foreigners engaged in the boot and shoe trade even now is a very small proportion to the total number of people in the county of London who are engaged in boot and shoe making. I show that on page 30 of my statement. Boot and shoe makers, 24,249, of whom 3,706 are foreigners; slipper makers, 300, of whom 163 are foreigner's. 17312. (Chairman.) There are in round numbers nearly 4,000 of those foreigners ?—Yes. 17313. The women are more marked—6,779 and 154? —Yes. These figures include the total number of women and of foreign women respectively engaged in .all branches of the boot trade. 17314. (Lord Rothschild).) So far as the cabinet trade is concerned, you want to point out that there were 32,553 people employed in that trade in 1901, of whom • only 3,514 were foreigners ?—That is so ; whilst in 1891 there were 27,809 persons so employed, so that the in- crease in the number o!f people engaged in the furniture trade during that decade is greater than the whole number of foreigners now so employed. 17315. (Chairman.) These are from Census returns, are they not, as to trades ?—Yes. 17316. (Lord Rothschild.) Then you wish to refer to the health of the foreigners; that is, not only aliens, lout the difference between the health of the Christians and the Jews in the borough of Stepney?—As measured hj the small-pox epidemic of last year. 17317. You say in the borough of Stepney there were 1,281 Noases of small-pox?—Yes; that is not quite up to the end of the epidemic, but that was up to May 20th, the time when I sent in these figures. 17318. Of that number you say 1,155 were Christians, and 126 were Jews, and 14 of the first 16 were traced to vthe same cause of infection?—Yes, that is so. I went through the returns of the cases notified very carefully with Dr. Thomas, and I feel certain that they are prac- ticallv correct. May I add with regard to small-pox iko/i. there was exactly the same experience in the smaller epidemic which took place in Whitechapel in 1895. Out of 75 notifications of smiall-pox there were -only seven cases, apparently Jewish. 17319. We have had previous evidence about the :number of convictions for selling with false weights and measures, and adulterations, and so on, therefore it is mot necessary to go through all that. (Chairman.) No; we have got all that in detail upon "Our notes. 17320. (Lord Rothschild.) You wish to give some evi- dence about the general character of aliens on some par- ticular points. You say the aliens with few exceptions care sober, thrifty, hardworking, and lasw abiding?—I think most decidedly so. 17321. You also say that they possess elasticity of mind and adaptability to circumstances ?—Yes, I think that the foreigner, however poor he may seem, has got a distinctly elastic standard, and has the power of adapting himself to circumstances, and that he is seldom hopelessly pauperised, and that the hope of raising himself in the world is always present to him. 17322. You say from the fact that when they come here they know two languages, Hebrew, and the Yiddish jargon, points to a certain amount of intel- lectual power ?—I think that is so, and however defec- tive thedr education may be in other respects, they usually have a fair amount of knowledge of Hebrew literature, which means that they have more intellectual interests than the bulk of the population. 17323. You think that they are willing to make great sacrifices for their children ?—In many ways they are keenlv interested in the progress of their children. I do not think there is anything more pathetic than to see the children of the Jews' Free School in the most apparently hopeless surroundings reading books from the public libraries, occupying themselves with then home work, and in every way trying to improve them- selves. Another form of sacrifice foreigners make foi their children is in having them taught Hebrew. They very often pay sums such as 6d. or Is. a week in order to send them to a Hebrew school in the evening, wherv they may be so taught. 17324. Then you say the Jewish alien very seldom permits his wife to work?—Very seldom indeed. I think the Census figures have clearly established that. 17325. You ialso think that, although a great many arrive here without knowledge of an English trade, and are obliged to accept the wagers of an apprentice, they soon attain high excellence, and get a high standard of wages?—Yes, that is particularly noticeable in the cabinet-making trade. You will find they come here and work for .a. year at 15s. a week, and at the end of the year they have mastered the trade completely, and they get as good wages as any other mechanic. 17326. Do you thinilE that the charge of their being Unpatriotic to this country is unfounded ?—I think it is almost absurd. The number of the children of foreigners who have arrived here who serve in the Army, or serve as Volunteers, appears to me to be extraordinarily large. 17327. Then you say their children soon become English. You mention here some faults that you find in them. You say they have a lower standard in re- spect of overcrowding I—Yes, I am afraid that is an undoubted fact. 17328. Then, secondly, you my they desire to live from profits rather than wages, hence their trades unions are unstable, and that because they set up as little masters in domestic workshops rather than work for wages in a factory. I do not wish to deny your statement, but are you aware that the Labour Commis- sion that went to America said that American workmen were more industrious, because they saw a chance of every one of them becoming masters?—I do not know what the American conditions may be, but I think the multiplication of small masters, and work carried on in domestic workshops, rather than in large factories, is a bad thing, and one with regard to which the Legislature ought to step- in and cause* a change. 17329. Then you say they are sometimes untruthful, and resort to acts of petty dishonesty, such as adultera- tion. I have myself a very strong feeling about what is called the untruthfulness of people in the East End, If you go and ask people of a different class a variety of questions that every East Ender is asked by every phil- anthropist, they are not always inclined to be particu- larly accurate. Then you think that wife desertion is common, but probably that is explained by a husband going to seek his living, and then, sending for his wife ? —That accounts for a certain class of case. One knows of cases in which the husband is not able to get a living, and goes away elsewhere, and remains in touch with his wife, and probably sends a portion of his wages to her; but you have cases which cannot be placed under that category, where the husband some- times deserts his wife on several occasions, and leaves her in a state of miserable destitution. I have seen horrible cases of that kind only quite recently. 17330. Generally speaking, you want to make some remarks about the exclusive dealing of these foreigners. Would you explain that?—I think a good deal of the exclusive dealing to which previous witnesses have al- luded refers to the small retail provision shops, where the J&w is compelled to deal with his fellow-Jew by the requirements of his religion. But even there, when you get to the milk shop, I find in many streets that have become entirely Jewish, the Christian milk-seller may be the only Englishman left in that particular locality, and may make an extremely good living, and a good living derived from the foreigners entirely. You have cases of that sort, for instance, in Middlesex Street, which is Jewish, and which has been Jewish for generations. I can think of a. similar case in Black Lion Yard, where a. Christian cowkeeper is able to make aMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 635 living, and I presume a good living, in the midst of a population which is entirely foreign, and with regard to shops where drapery and1 other articles of clothing are sold, I believe that complaints which are made by the smiall retailers are much more directed against large establishments, such as those of Venables and Gardiner and. Longuehaye than against the aliens. The tend- ency is, of course, for the 'big fish to swallow up the small fish, and the small fish naturally wish to find some explanation of their failing prosperity, and the aliens are close at hand to supply that explanation. 17331. You wish to give some evidence as to the cor- rectness of the Census against the allegations that have been made. Will you describe those shortly without going into the various details?—First of all, I should like to> give my own experience in connection with the Census. 17332. (Chairman.) You can give this very shortly, and you must keep, please, to facts of a short character ?— I was a member of the committee organised by the Chief Rabbi in connection with the Census. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not tl^His we dispute the accuracy of the Census to any considerable extent. We merely allege there were difficulties in the way of col- lecting it. (Chairman.) We have heard some suggestions from a good many witnesses. . It may solace the feeling of the Registrar-General with regard to it if we take this shortly. (Mr. Vallance.) Mr. Gordon, who is to give evidence to-day, was the secretary of the organisation for securing an accurate Census, and therefore there will be less reason for Mr. Lewis going into details. 17333. (Chairman.) Be very short and concise ?—With respect to my own experiences I will only say that I found no difficulty at all in visiting a large number of people and getting replies from them that were ob- viously correct. 17334. The business was carried on better in 1901 than it had been previously carried on, and there was im- provement?—Yes, my Lord, it was much more syste- matic in 1901 than in 1891. Might I mention two other fact®. , First of all, df there wias any enormous deficiency in the Census that would show itself by the death-rate. The death-rate that you have in Whitechapel and the other centres that are largely inhabited by aliens is merely normal, and that seems to show that the enu- meration of population is fairly correct. Further than that we have a means of comparing enumeration of children in the Census with that which was made by the School Board visitors who scheduled ; that is to say, obtained a Census of child population at the same time. I find those figures agree very fairly together. In the Tower Hamlets—thiat is to say, the metropolitan boroughs of Stepney and Poplar—there is shown by the Census to be a child population between the ages of three and five of 23,604. The School Board visitors found almost the same number—23,924. Then between the ages of five and 14 the figures given by the Census were 92,556, and those scheduled by the School Board visitors were 91,006. (See School Board for London school accommodation report for 1901, p. 5.) 17335. (Lord Bothschild.) You have certain remedies to suggest about overcrowding ?—I think, as I have already said, that one of the main means of dealing with overcrowding is that the local authority should do their duty in enforcing the existing law. In the past, I believe, that has not been done. In the borough of •Stepney at the present time very much more energy is being shown. I believe that touri medical officer of health and our sanitary inspectors do the best they can with the means at their disposal, but I think the staff of sanitary inspectors that we have is an obviously in- sufficient one, and it compares unfavourably with that of other metropolitan boroughs. I have here the report of the medical officer of the County Council showing that while we in Stepney have one sanitary inspector to . every 17,562 of population, in'^Bethnal Green they have a sanitary inspector toi every 11,789 of population. 17336. (Chairman.) Are these inspectors appointed now by the borough councils?—They are appointed by the borough councils. Then in Hackney they have one sanitary inspector to every 14,619, and again in South- wark they have one sanitary inspector to every 11,452. I have, in fact, the figures for all the metropolitan boroughs. 17337..(Lord Bothschild.) I do not think it is necessary to examine you on the question of key-money. I think we know all about that ?—-Might I mention some other V,\ 14 points in respect of overcrowding? Another thing is, ^fr< ffj'g.' as I think Sir Samuel Montagu has already told you, Lewis. that much more power ought to be given to deal with —— overcrowding as an offence committed by the owner as 26 Mar. 1003. well as by the occupier of the premises. According to Section 4 of the Public Health {London) Act the person who has to be proceeded against for any nuisance is the man by whose act, sufferance, or default that nuisance is proved to exist. 17338. (Mr. Vallance.) Would not that include th3 owner ?—I think not. Mr. Macmorran, in his edition of the Act, says : " It is submitted that in general the occupier and not the owner is the person by whose act, default, or sufferance the nuisance constituting the overcrowding arises." 17339. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) If the owner did not know of it he can hardly be hit under that?—I think the onus of proving that he did not know of it ought to rest upon him. 17340. (Chairman.) The owner means the person in possession of the legal estate who may have no more to do with the property than a stranger. He may be a mortagee with the legal estate vested in him. Ycfu must define your owner as the person who is either the rack- rent landlord or the person who is on the property in possession ?—I should not be capable of defining that, but I should think it would be within the power of the Legislature to give a reasonable definition. 17341., You must have a person guilty of a semi-crime before you can punish him?—That is so. 17342. (Lord Bothschild.) Then you wish to make some remarks upon a point that has been raised that the immigration of aliens tends to drive Englishmen out of this country ?—I think that is disproved by the figures relating to emigration, which are published by the Board of Trade, because they show that there were many more emigrants from Englandi before the time the foreigners came here than there are now. 17343. (Chairman.) What year are you quoting from ? —.From 1880 onwardsi. 17344. What is the document ?—The statistical tajbles relating to immigration and emigration from and into the United Kingdom. 17345. What is the date of the document ?—The date of this document is 1901, but it gives the figures for very much further back, and it shows that since 1880 there has been a very considerable decrease in the^ number of people so emigrating. 17346. What does "emigrating" mean there? Is it travelling or going away to remain?-—Going away to- countries outside Europe. 17347. To remain?—Yes. We have here the figures of emigration and immigration of persons of British and Irish origin only, and these show that the net emigration in 1887, for example, was 196,012; in 1899 it was 46,116, and in 1900, which is the last year I have, it was 71,188, so that it is less than half what it was . years ago. In fact, if you go back as far as 1883 you have a net emigration of 246,314. (Chairman.) 1 do not think there is so much sug- gestion that people have been driven out of the country„ as that they have been driven out of the trades. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, and out of the houses in the East End. (Lord Bothschild.) There was an allegation made early in the proceedings. (Chairman.) But we have had no evidence in support - of it. 17348. (Lord Bothschild.) You wish to point out how the conditions of life of the alien immigrant (and I sup- pose this would also apply to the Englishman) are en- tirely changed by the surroundings ?—Yes, that isi so. Although you may find a person living in very miserable conditions in a. place like Booth Street Buildings, for example, which has been mentioned to the Cbmmission^ if you take that same man out from there and put him into such a place as Rothschild Buildings, where he is; able to live decently, even without increasing his wages. in any way, you find the whole circumstances of his family and the cleanliness of his home, and his whole social standing are transformed to a marvellous extent. 17349. When you say that, could you give tihe com- parative rent- of the Booth Street Buildings, and these new buildings?—The rent of Booth Street Building and of Rothschild Buildings would not very largely differ. The thing which differs very much between th) 4 L 263(5 30YAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGEAIIC: control is kept see that ".'^pie liye gently tJiere^ .' • ,x'- . Tta •v903f ishowAt&a^^ 'amount of - generosity and u Aabei&y, is;ma^4ii2fi9^-^plieasmg;^ featara v.* -in-..- their character! m ,£o:ur: #&:;•; ■ a ■:■. ■ ■■ 17353. I do not think-Milei^e % aiijKMier qiie&tion'I •tVjaeedask you on your general evidence ?-rr—:'; 3Wyi (., -:: 17352.x (Sir> 'l&itidm- Digby.) Bo you aritidpate a • gr6at increase'6f Immigrationto the East End'nioWv- Do • ryou ' think' it will advance ?—(Unless persecution' in u 'Ifcussda increases I * d o not think that immigration is ' likely to increase here. -:'X-A " - 173,§3. You -agree with the other 'witnesses* who put r;% entirely1 on the action of the foreign Governments; ixMe^ dtitside^ th§; of' tfee" towtfSy- JaJnd' getting ! dwelling houses round them where people can live.' 17357., Ypuknow th£ process olfactories. moving out- ride the limits of towns, is increasing very much, quite '.apart from anyqu'estion of immigration?—Yes, >J; 17358. One sees that on all sides of London ?—Yes, hut I think ojie? rather likes to : rendered easier.. I do not at all agree that the period '^Jiquld be naturalised"SlioiU'd,'.be' _ in wlfich ( ................. Te^^i'©s Me are very ortunalte in our '. medical /officer of health, who is a man who is thor- 'oughl^ keen, • .and anxious to do everything whioh is 'v possibles and iwe>are^piroceeding fairly rapidly with the registration of houses. , • 17368. Under, the •bye7laws ?—Yes, under Section ,94- of. the Public Healih Act. ' ! -a '•»' •.nr. the new i ixeWi bye^laws that -wetre approved by>l&e ^ meht-S?oard last summer. n-^ T i7370. Ant the registration is fproceeding rapidly tinder' that ?^-Yes,1 it^ is -profeeedin^x quite rapidly, . f J*7$7X ^Do you .^pdk npon that as' a"vej^; coi^46rarble advaritiage?^rYes, Jbut I would lifee^hbre lagain^ See the owner, as distinct f^omd the lodged and; the occupier, made responsible.; in fact, We tried to do that,'but the Ldca'l Gr6vernment Board modified 'that to a consider- able; extent. ; . ■ 1 ......' r;•- ■ \ 17372. Then one.of your remedites is to throw' gi*e*£ter responsibilities on' the owner ?—1 thiiik s«o. : ' v 17373. Apart from the question whether he is aotually cognisant of the state of his property, or not ?•—I think p^ople ought.to jinjow in which their prpperty is a ^se^d...; J /thinik :it ,,isl one; of, th^ ^eisponsibilities of p^o - perty. If I may,say soj the;..penalty .of imprisopjH^eni, ought to. be permiissible iii bad cases of offences iagainst v|;;hef Piibliohealth Act•' ; ^ z4;- , . 17374. Do you think, tnere ought to be, as one .or two witnesses have suggested, any power of acting:?byre:the 'vinw^sionoof .that.district <-by?jai}., alien population,, and ^^S$^'il^il^ibee^^teeia:iiinp>s^bl%; w0^d' nftt t liave excluded the aliens auto ,St. George's yr,a% becoming a district' of declining industries, and the people engaged in the sugar baking trades were going ja^ay, either to Silverstown^ or , possibly out of . Epgland altogether,; and there was. a gap which. li.acl to be filled |«p; somehow. "-«..■:■,■•■■ \ , ' ': ' 17394. 1 i gather from your.. precis that you are in favour of encouragement being given to municipal Ihousing?—Yes, I am. , , 17395. Do you think that would relieve the situation .at all?—'I think it would relieve the- situation ..very materially. . ... v v: . ... • ■ • - A; ' 17396. Do. .yourbhink. it i would give an impetus, to private building^ or : would it retard private building -and lead really to ultimate cessation of private build- ri^g,^^That,4s p^all^%tid(pr .tifoat is made, but I do not ,$hink it. has b^en madeyout. , r , .. ., „: : '-r)17397.? At all events* unless fsome municipal authority jbrbvidiag; house accomodation are exceedingly icareful ■' Jiiot .to5 compete with: the drdinary houses, 'and liot >to det ?their ; buildings at lower "rents—unless they are fcare- tfult^y to;^t/Baty they «uld be ;in serioiis ^competition, would they not, with the1 private - builder ?-r—The im- portant $iing d%jt^at rthBy sfiould try and tap the very Ifb%'is.rs*aid,:andisaid /projba- correctness, agaaust rthe County Council, what you want rreailly to try things like that prevailing in Liverpool or Glasgow, where they set up, perhaps .TLot^the .gran,de^t jooam. of dwellimg, hut one, at any rate, tliorou/gjily: feealtihy; and satisfactory, whicih. mn be. let at very rl^w ^ents. - 17398,. ($i7i . ;• -i.. 17399, (Mt. Vallance.) With regard to the figures Tyou 'haye given us as to the number of foreigners in- 1901 Census returns, 1 understand your point to be that, inasmuch ias in the tailoring trade there is something like 42'per* cent, of the trade1 foreigners, that these figures speak for them- •selves) as regards the expansion of tr.ade, and not of -displacement of labour ?—I think that is so, and, ^ fuHhei? than that, the expansion in the decade between 1891 «and' 1901 seems to show that there must itoave been an exp'ansioii ' amoaigst native born workmen a® well ,as .•amongst foreigners. v 17400. That is, that the existence of 13,000 foreigners ^in. that trade, and 42 per cent, of foreigners, would speak for itself ks (regards the hon-interference with niative 'labour? I,,. do not rquite follow why th.e 13,000 speaks for itself. 17401. (Mr.Vallance.) 42. per cent, of foreigners in the trade must, on the face of it, show that the trade rliasr expanded, whereby the 42 per cent, can live addi- tional to the previous number You have had, between 4.891 and 1901, an increase in the number of male Mr. B & Jailors i of^ ®/500r-which is rough^ iiibout .equivalent to Leivis. •» half the number of foreigners now so engaged. 26 Mar 1903 17402. \Chairifiwh.) '"Your.;point is^ * r6pm /has ; been 14 founxl for .|b.em} somehow,„anci ffiai; therer is no prbt^ fliat they turn; .native (w,orkinen ou^ of; employmeiit ? . (Sir Kerielm Bigby.) leather the, other ;w^y, ^because the natives have increased, too. v ^ (Chairman.) Non ^constatI if, ;the. foreigners .'had not come here- the natives would:have increasedtmore. • -TShe. figures speak for %eimselves, .although the .inference to be drawn from them ds very different. . 17403. (Mr. Vallance. )• The existence of 13,000 foreign miale tailors in the county of London, if tihey were not wanted, must lhkve . created .a:. prqiblem. .fTtoe problem •#ppar^ntlyihafe notibeeai created, and therefore it,^powts "to f f : - • 17406. (Major EvansrGo rdon,) Ijunderstand ,you con- sider the displacement of native by foreign population fhas^ iu some cases^.'been- beneficial,. and in others, detri- mental T think soi - ^ ,vt 17407. Which would you say has; the pull there—the detrimental cause, or the beneficial cause ?^f-It is very difficult to' strike a balance of that kind, •' - : ■:./•* 17408. And that this inflow into the East End has been attended by an immense increase of relit?—^That is undoubted. ..............;-r 17409. And that rents have been raised, principally by foreign and Jewish landlords,. >and that rent-raising almost invariahiy follows the change of ownership?— i',o cm', T^n^irkinl IV paused, but nbt■ exiclusiveljr.1 ^: That is so, princi; 17410. I will put the, question to you, so ajs to. make that quite clear. : This rent-raising' and house-farming and so on, you say, 1 are not confined to Jewish arid fpreign landlords,,, hut, are ,, principally conducted r by them -That is ' so.' !But "mi^lit, I ; add tliis >r'tii^ .1 do not thinjt the-responsibility arways rests; witfc the immediate'landlord 6f'".the" premises "at all. I liad, a case that came, under my notice last week of four houses in Brick'I^anpi They were to'he sold, and'the former 6wrier sold th'em for £4,000' to the :occitpier' iof oiife; of * th^. four houses! He was obliged to buy ^ becaus e ! otherwise "he knew1 they ^vould pass into- - the1 hands of someone who perhaps would turn out -td be a trade rival, and they said :JVWe will: allow1 £3,700 out of the £4,000 to remain ;on mortgage, and you shall pay us 5g per cent, on'it^' The Result was that he was compelled-to raise the :rents of?the other three: houses, and raise them very considerably, from 30s., a week to 40s. a week ; but he was not the person who, it seems to me, was mainly to blame. It was these English people at the back of him who were the real culprits. ... 17411. There are all sorts of hokey-pokey going on with regard to , property in - ' this, neighbourhood ?—No doubt. ' . . . 17412. The general .tendency is to. drive up tihe rents, and the general tendency is, of course, then to dis- place the. population ?-^-Yes,. that liappens very fre- quently. 17413. Would you s>ay that this is one, if not the principal, cause of bitterness of,feeling which exists in the East End. with regard to immigration ?—'Yes, that is the principal c^use, one hears of it every day. 17414. You adhere to what you said, I think, in a lecture or speech,on this subject that I have here : " The main cause of the present unpopularity of ^aliens in East London. remains to be stated. The inflow of the foreign Jew has brought with it an immense amount of overcrowding, the direct and indirect effects of which .have been alike injurious. The number of foreigners occupying one room tenements is very great; too many lodgers are received, and illegally occupied basements' are far too common. The evil of home-work is very apparent, and persons engaged in some branches of the boot trade very frequently use the feame room as- a work-638 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. H. 8. shop ,and as a dwelling-place. The high, rents prevail- Lewis. ing in the Jewish districts are partly the effect and M--7qf>« partly the cause of. this overcrowding." Those words f' express the condition of things going on now ?—-Yes. I adhere to that, but, at the same time, I would say that some of these evils are now diminishing owing to the action of the borough council, and I alsocannot help see- ing some «igns that the congestion of population even seems to be tending to diminish. The demand for houses is not quite so great as it was a year or two ago. In St. George's Street, for example, there is quite a number of houses which are now empty, because nobody will take them—which looks as if we are almost turning the corner. 17415. Then you go on to refer to the people, saying they will not accept Christian tenants, and so on, and you say, "The bitterness of feeling caused by this in- famous state of things can be readily imagined." Then you suggest that the true remedy lies in the rigorous enforcement of the sanitary law ; but, at all events, you do admit that there has been, and is, considerable bitterness of feeling, and that the displacement of people from their houses is the principal cause of that ? —I do not think one can wonder for a moment at the bitterness of feeling. 17416. Then you say in your book that the benefi- cent effect of time must be looked to to cure this ?—I do not think I say so in that connection. 17417. You say at page 212 of your book : " The heal- ing influences of time will lessen divergence of senti- ment, and enable native born and foreigner to cultivate a better understanding " ?—But I say that in quite a different connection. 17418. But, generally speaking, a better understand- ing on all those points ?—No, what I am speaking about there is the dislike of the Christian, as Christian, to the Jew, as Jew. I say, as far as that is concerned, the healing influence of time is very likely to cure it, but I am not speaking of the bitterness caused by people being displaced from their houses. 17419. Surely if theise people go on increasing very much naturally, or from the inflow from abroad, there is not much prospect of the bitterness of feeling being allayed, is there?—No, certainly not, but I think you can prevent this bitterness by strengthening your law, and by improving its administration. 17420. With regard to emigration from Russia, you think that better conditions in Russia would put an end to that?—There I am only speaking of my im- pressions. 17421. Quite so, but I am afraid that the habit of flowing westward has grown up in Russia and Poland, and relations have been established between America and England, and constant communication and an immense number of letters pass, and an immense amount of money passes ; therefore I am afraid that there is a tendency to go, in spite of the conditions in Russia. Would you agree to that?—That may be. 17422. A sort of habit of mind?—Of course it does not follow that people when they go will come here? 17423. No, not at all?—I have really no knowledge of these things. 17424. Now a few questions about the movement of the neighbourhood. You specified certain streets where things were very bad before, and a bad class of popu- lation that has been replaced by a foreign population of a better character. One place you mention, Vine Court. Do you adhere to it that Vine Court was a very bad place some years ago?—Yes, certainly. I do not know whether you .are speaking about Vine Court in Whitechapel or Vine Court in Little Pearl Street. 17425. Are there two Vine Courts ?—Yes. 17426. I may be confused about it, because I happen to know some Jewish people who were born in Vine Court 25 years ago?—I think that must be Vine Court in the Whitechapel Road, near the corner of the New Road. 17427. It is a matter of no importance, but I only wanted to clear it up for the sake of my own informa- tion. With regard to Adelina Grove and the west end of Oxford Street, Stepney, and round Bedford Street, that wasi a famous site for disorderly houses some years ago, was not it?—Yes. That was cleared out by Mr. F. N. Charrington. 17428. That clearance was made by Mr. F. N. Char- rington by regularly organised raHs. That would have happened in spite of alien immigration? It is not, fair to say that alien immigration extirpated that vice V —It is fair to say that you had disreputable people* living there before, and that you had aliens living there* afterwards. 17429. That is quite true, but we are coming to the* cause of the bad people being displaced. They were* not driven out by the alien®; they were driven out by Mr. F. N. Charrington ?-—It was the aliens who tobk their place, though. 17430. I question that, too. Some of those houses* to my knowledge were occupied by English working: people, and since, in the last five or six years, withim my own short experience, they have left there and foreign people have come in, in many of those houses especially in Oxford Street and some of the houses io Adelina Grove?—I was just saying that the alteration, in the character of Oxford Street took place later thaiM the alteration in the character of Adelina Grove. 17431. 1887?—Later than that. Even within my time I can remember some houses in Oxford Street being extremely disreputable, and you would see the- prostitutes hanging about in those streets, near the- London Hospital, who are no longer to be found there. 17432. It does not seem, when this is part of a general5 improvement which has gone on all over London, quite- fair to say it is due to the alien immigrants ?—Has it gone on all over London? 17433. I think in a great many places I can remember not being able to walk in, Seven Dials, and at the back of those places where Shaftesbury Avenue now is. Those were all impossible places, but that has all disap- peared. I do not think it is fair to say that the alien immigrant has been responsible for the purification of those regions you mentioned?—Those are two events* that took place successively. 17434. There is a better population than was there- before. Cause and effect are two different things?— Yes, that is so. 17435. It is not fair to say that had it not been for- those foreigners coming those places would have re- mained as bad as they were?—It is impossible to say what would have happened. 17436. Mr. F. N. Charrington was not an alien immigrant, and he was the man who organised the clearing out of these places. He was not influenced to do that by alien immigration ; he was influenced to* do that because he thought the thing was wrong, ancf he tried to make it better?—Clearing out Adelina Grove, but not clearing out the houses in Oxford Stree1 or clearing out John's Place. 17437. He was instrumental in doing it in many of the cases, because I know people who worked with him? on it. Then with regard to the better conditon of St. George's : St. George's was a cosmopolitan place from time immemorial, was not it?—Cosmopolitan to some* extent. 17438. It was a sort of place where many foreign' sailors came at a time when the Port of London was; different from: what it is now?—Yes, certainly. 17439. Was not a great deal of the disorder and dis- reputableness of St. George's caused by foreigners at: the worst of times—RatclifFe Highway ?—>Some of it was, but I should think, judging from what one readsr in books, that a great deal of it was native also. 17440. It was a cosmopolitan seaport, with a deal too many of that kind of house, was it not ?— Partly cosmopolitan and partly native. 17441. And there was a large element of foreign? prostitutes I am told by persons who worked there? — I really do not know. 17442. There again it is not quite fair to say that that state of things has been replaced by alien immigrants,, and that the alteration for the better in that neighbour- hood is the beneficent work performed by aliens?—In- the case of Brunswick Street, for instance, I know' people who remember the time when the alteration took place; it did not take place all at once, the bad people went out and the better people, who were' foreigners, came in in immediate succession, and curiously enough the man who was telling me about that, who was very anti-ialien, said he preferred Brunswick Street when it was filled with prostitutes to Brunswick Street as it is now, 17443. There is no accounting for tastes, but what T want to put to you is, that at all events some of these-MINUTES OF EVIDJfiNUR 639 unpleasant people who were removed wen these foreigners ?—That may be. 17444. With regard to St. George's-iu-the-East gene- Tally, are you acquainted with the condition of things in the streets there now ?—In the north-west part of St. Oeorge's, the Jewish district of St. George's, I think I "know the condition of things very well indeed. 17445. Is it not a fact that some very undesirable people are there still ?-—The worst kind of brothels we Jiave had to deal with in St. George's are in Station JPlace, and in Station Place they are all English -prostitutes. 17446. There are others besides, are there not?—Yes, we have had to deal with a, certain number in Batty's <*ardens. 17447. Have you read the evidence of Mr. Pam, who lived 40 years in JSt. Georges, himself a Jew, whoi gave zusan account of dancing places where he went to where there were half-naked girls and poses plastiques, and -sill that sort of thing ?—I accept that kind of statement with a good many grains of salt. 17448. This gentleman was a man of a certain amount of standing, but you say he was not saying what was afche fact ?—I cannot assert that. 17449. Mr. Joseph Pam, of 63, Sutton Street, St. Creorge's ?-—I can only assert I have seen nothing of the Icind myself. 17450. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Or heard of it ?—Or heard •of it. 17451. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There has been a great ^change you admit for the better all over London, has ^here not ?—In many parts of London. 17452. And where the places are very bad places, gsuch as Soho, the worst quarters are foreign, are they Jiot ?—So I have heard. I hardly like speaking about Things of which I have no personal knowledge. 17453. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Did not that evidence you Ihave quoted relate to Soho ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) No, related to St. George's. .11 is in the general evidence. 17454. Did you hear M: Q-reenberg's evidence the other day ?—-Yes. 17455. Would you agree with him that any steps we .may take to restrict alien immigration would lead to- .anti-Semitism ?—There is a. good deal of anti-Semitism aiow. 17456. Do you agree with him that whether we take .steps or do not there will be anti-Semitism ?—Anti- -Semitism is an evil that you have to try and combat. Jt exists now, and it is going to exist for the next few .years, whatever you do. The main means of combat- ing anti-Semitism is by getting rid of the evil which ogives rise to anti-Semitism, namely, the displacement of people from their houses. 17457. That is the principal reason that gives rise to -discontent against the foreigners generally?—I have no doubt about that. 17458. And that stirs up the feeling against the) Jew personally?—Yes, people do not distinguish between %u\iq foreigner and the Jew. 17459. That is a danger ?—A very great danger. 17460. Do you consider the danger of anti-Jewish ifeeling arising from these people coming in in increas- ing numbers and forcing the people out is greater or less than the danger that would arise if we put on some restrictive measure?—I do not think putting on restric- tive measures would meet it. 17461. That is another point. What you think of the ^efficacy of the restrictive measure is quite another point; but what do you think is the greatest danger -from the Jewish point of view?—I would not do either. 3 would deal with the displacement by other means. 17462. You would keep the people from coming in without restricting them coming in ?—I would prevent houses becoming overcrowded, and I would do my utmost to bring rents down, and then displacement, in my judgment, would not take place. 17463. And that would allay the discontent P—I think «o. 17464. Do you agree with Mr. Greenberg that the way to check immigration is to allow the standard here to gradually assimilate itself to the worst stan- dard of the Ghettoes of Eastern Europe?—I would take y 17465. With regard to allowing them to come in, would you let all come in?—If there is any practical means of keeping criminals and persons wiio are diseased out I would resort to it. 17466. I suppose there would be no practical diffi- culty about disease, would there?—Cases of hardship, I fchmk, might arise where you have got a whole family coming, and perhaps one little child, with some kind of complaint. 17467. If you were controlling this matter yourself, say at the port of embarkation, or at the place of origin of these people, what would you do with regard to sending people here, would you select them ?—Yes. I should certainly take every step in my power to dis- suade those from coming here who had no chance of making a living themselves when they came. 17468. You would go into their moral and physical capacity as much, as you could, and only send those you thought were going to do well %—One has to dis- tinguish betweeau persuasion and compulsion. 17469. You would dissuade anyway ?—Most certainly., 17470. At all events, you would not assist ?—Certainly not. 17471. You would dissuade?—Certainly. 17472. If those people whom, you conscientiously try to dissuiade from coming still come, would you object to the State protecting itself in that respect?—I think if the State sould protect itself without leading to worse evils, the State would be perfectly right. 17473. What axe the worse evils you. anticipate ?— Injustice, because I do not believe that any State machinery that you can create would discriminate be- tween the desirables and the undesirables, except ill the case, possibly, of the criminals and those physically diseased. 17474. But anyhow you would use all the moral, per- suasion in your power to deter certain people from coming ?—Certainly. 17475. Consequently, I suppo'se, from that, a good many people' do come whom you would sooner see not come?1—Yes, there are a great number, but I should not like to pledge myself to saying what sort of proportion they are to the whole number. I believe they are in a small minority. 17476. That is neither here nor there, but supposing there are few or many, still there are some ?—Certainly. 17477. With regard to the exclusive dealing, is there not a natural and perfectly, understandable tendency for these people speaking one language and of one race to deal with one another?1—'There is a certain tendency, but I think there are stronger tendencies which act on them, just as they act on any other customers—that is to say, to buy at places where they can- get the thing they want cheapest. 17478. The cheapest and he:< 9—The cheapest and best, 17479. According to his own requirements?—Yea. 17480. Is not there a natural tendency on the part of these people to provide one another with the things which suit them best?—I think an enterprising trader of anv kind tries to provide his customers with the things they want. May I mention one example? Everyone knows Gardiner's shop at the corner of the Whitechapel Road, a very large establishment,. They found it paid them to supply silk praying shawls, evidently to Jewish customers, and the same principle would apply else- where. 17481. Have you read the statement of a gentleman named Mendellsohn ?—I am af raid not. 17482. He made reference to this matter of exclusive dealing, and of all people who have suffered he quotes the small retail shopkeeper as the man who has suifered most?—The small retail shopkeeper has suffered, no doubt, but I believe he has suffered more through the competition of the large establishments than of the foreigner. 17483. But still, there would be, I think you will admit, a natural tendency, without anything in the nature of a boycott or organised trading with their own people, for these people to deal in shops where they get the articles they are accustomed to, and where the Mr. H. S. Lewis. 26 Mar. 1903,m ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. II. f. pjebple speak their own language ?—It is one considera- Lkcis. tioii, but; not "a considera^tibn that goes very far except in r>i^ '"t-lie-• provision shops.' ' ' V ..; i7^'. Tl'iore are Certain reasons there whicK we all understand Yes. 17485. With regard t o shoemaking, you say from the Census the number of shoemakers residing in Lcndon h?is .gone, down?—Yes, that is so. ^17436^Isi it not sthe case that a number of factories have' been started, employing alien labour outside London that do not come into the Census?—The only factory, employing alien labour to any extent that I know of is the firm of Flatau, in Tottenham, and I believe the vast majority of the people who >are em- ployed'by Flatau in Tottenham live within the County of -London, although they work out there. 17487V They would come in in the enumeration of the Census ?:—I think so. 17488s. But does not this dissemination and moving the people: outward that you Speak of alter the Census figures for th6 last 10 years ; would "not that accoiilit fdr 9oroe of the reaUction inth:& figui,fe&of^ishofe^akfngyp^ It accounts for some, no doiubtf but one of the 'faictors that has ^affected the boot and shoe trade of London is the wa,v in which the factories are going outside London, and factories which certainly in the vast majority , of oases employ Englishmen only. ~ 174891 'Do you.....think America is! taking our' shoe ft&ide'P-^It. is' taking a little of the best part of oaxr tra'de, the superior part of Our trade. I do not think that is.' the main factor of the' dislocation of th^ boot and shoe trade^/ I thiitk machinery is much moire important, and .the xx)impetition of the- large factories in' the Mid- lands. ; 17490V Would you say if we were to keesip alien immi- grants/ out of this country that, we should lose our shoe trade P^-I should not have thought the existence of the aliens in the boot and shoe trade was very important. 17491. Now with regard to tailors: you say there has been a large increase of tailors. Foreign tailors, of course, we cannot absolutely distinguish ?—No, we can- not.- J7492. But has not this great increase of foreign tailors made longer hours and lower wages ?—I am not aware of it. 17493. Are you aware of no dissatisfaction among the people already here, both Jew and Gentile tailors, as to the cutting of wages, and longer hours, and soon, in the tailoring trade?—One hears of it occasionally, but 1 re&llv have not checked the statements made to an extent that makes me very willing to give evidence about it. 17494.^ You have not heard of the strikes, and so forth, with regard to the very, very low rates offered for Government contracts, and so on, lately among the tailoring people?—There have been strikes, and there we're'striked lO'y&ttfc'%bo:,'"Tmt there is any evidence that tlie' dd^ditiiidh^ are^ ^^ th^ whole', ^brs^^now'than!they were th.en:.;?i-.. \ .. v? > .. 17465/'Would not. you say thai the' 6f people of this kind who are compelled frckn 'thei^ circumstances to work for loww>a^es'anct lbrig hours,' or "rather t'd &nb- mit 'to practically' any conditions, h^^^ ufton: the wages and prices in the trade ?—-I !do< not think' it seems so; I think ibis expansion in the tailoring; tr^de- in the course'of the last 10 years—much-of^' whicb cannot-, be attributed to alien immigration—shows that the? tailoring trade in London is still a desirable one5 into* whieh people enter. May I also point out that am#ngst> the Women working? »at> the -tailoring the vast majority" are natives? Out of a total of 33,000 tailoresses yora have only 3,000 odd foreigners. 17496. Women?—Yes. . 17497.' Th£ womeii are always-largel^ mdre Christian than the > Jew. With/ regard- to this Unpleasantnessvof: , feeling, do* you hold the alien partly ^es^odsible for^thafc himself ?—'When you have bitter fueling there are generally faMts on both sides, and I think there^ are* faults on;bpth sides in this case. ? 17498. Is it not more a riling feeliiig that the alien is rather inclined to look down upon .the Christian?— I do not think they look down on the Gentiles. - 17499. Does not the .alien think himself rather a, superior person ?—I do not think he does that to &, greater extent than the Gentile looks down on the Jew —perhaps not so much. 17500. The visitor I coming ;in and looking down on the host is rather a riling feature in the situationP^That: may be. 17501. I want, to account for this bitterness of feeling,, and not to< throw the whole onus on the Christian popu- lation . There; are faults on both sides,' you say1 P—I am. sure of that; and the boycotting also, if I may* say so, is. not all on one side either. If there ;are Jewish landlords; who take Jewish tenants and no others—and there certainly are—there are also certainly Christians who. will take nothing else but Christian lodgers in. Yoi® see advertisements to that effect in the local papers. 17502. That is quite true, but one of the chief charac- teristics that you refer to in your book is " Harshness,, oppression, and even fraud are too often associated with foreign Jews who have recently invested' in house pro- perty." That is a regrettable feature?—That is so.' 17503. Generally speaking, do you still hold with. wbat you say at page 178 of your book: "We cannot deny, therefore, the existence of certain signs of moral, degeneracy in the Jewish immigrants from Russia and Poland ?—Yes, I still hold that. . That is only one side,, and I try and put forward the other side also. 17504. It is my painful duty in this matter rather to» bring out the unpleasant features ?—Quite so.- (Chairman.) The Commission are much obliged to yoin for your evidence. The Reverend Canon Barnett, called ; and Examined. The Rev. Canon Barnett. 175Q5. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You are, I think, a Canon of Bristol and Warden of Toynbee Hall ?—Yes. 17506, Your position and work in the1 East End are known to everyone, and you have lived tihere for a very considerable time ?—^-Thirty years. 17507. I think you were first of all Vicar of' St. Jude's?-—Yes; 10 years ago I gave that up. : 17508. • You hf- ve, no doubt, been pretty constantly in contact with the foreign population, and I need hardly say ypu have seen a great increase in it in that time ?_ Yes. 17509. What do you say as to their condition nowfas compared with past times? —The numbers .have .in-, creased, as you say, but I think their condition has improved ; they live in better houses and under better conditions altogether. , • 175X0.t < And -as to their education P^—-They5 ' comeverv regularly to the Board School and do* extremely Well and they are some of the best of the pupils. ... 5 .17511., PMhey keep; up tany distinctiveness in, pbint qtr (tossfiWThey dressf rather better than'other with;rathermore colour.: J\ j } c 17512a And^- as -to tifiedr scleanliness what; is your opinion P--In my opinion they are not more uncleanly than their neighbours, the Gentile population. I think: as a whole11 should say the Jewish people were cleaner,, but, of course, their'habit of cleanliness is different. I sometimes say that the Gentile people sweep their dirt under their beds and the J ewish people throw it out of the window. -17513. As to personal cleanliness, are they clean ins their persons ? I suppose their laws require a great deal more cleanlineiste than ours, but, it is difficult to judge. 17514. Your Would endorse- what other witnesses have- said with regard to their thriftiness and sobriety ?—Yes. 17515. Then what do you say as to their health ?__ Ihey are, distinctly better than the average of that class, in the Easts of London. 17516. Have you known maily eases in which epidemics- have prevailed amongst vthem?—No, they have beeni strangely clear of epidemics. 17517. Ho,w do, they get. on with their neighbours ?— Personally they are veiy good fri«nds, 'but (when you get gome of their. (Gentile neighbours talking! about' themi they are anolmed to find fault and to talk about their greed; but people often can theorise on what they do net practise, and I think there is a theory among th«MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 641 Gentile population that the Jews and aliens axe in the way. As a matter' of fact, I find very many personal friendships, and in cases of sickness I find Jewish neigh- bours are very noticeable for their kindness to the Geritile sick. 17518. What is your experience as to their effect upon trade?—Of course, I am not a good judge of that, but trade has increased very largely, and they have brought a good deal of trade into East London. 171519. {Chairman.) From what direction,?—In the clothing trade, they have developed it very much, and I suppose the cigarette trade is very much in their hands. 17520. Bo you mean they have brought trade as pro- ducers ?—Yes. 17521. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) As far as your experience goes, do you thank those benefits are confined to them, or have they improved the position of the neighbourhood generally?—Do you mean has wealth increased in the neighbourhood ? 17520. Yes ?—Yes, wealth has increased in the neigh- bourhood, and I should think it is very largely due to the trade they have brought and their activity generally. 17523. When they first come they are apt to take low wages ?—Yes. 17524. So far as your experience goes, do they im- prove, and get better afterwards ?—Very rapidly. One of the astonishing things is to see people I knew poor a few years ago getting on into good positions1. 17525. Do you think many of them remain in that depressed state, and in the hands of sweaters very long ? —I should have said no, but I have no personal ex- perience. 17526. Then we have heard a good deal about whether they are disposed to take interest in public affairs and to become good citizens ?—I think so. As members of the boards of guardians they take a good deal of in- terest in the welfare of the whole neighbourhood—not only of their own people. 17527. {Chairman.). Are they members of the boards of (guardians before being naturalised ?—I do not sup- pose we actually inquire whether they are naturalised. Mr. Vallance would know better than I do. 17528. {Chairman.) Do they take them as members of the boards of guardians without naturalisation ? (Mr. Vallance.) The question is not aeked. Objection might be taken to the nomination on that account, but it has not arisen. 17529. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) What do you say with re- gard to overcrowding, about which we have heard so much ?■—;Of course there is a good deal of overcrowding, but not. soi much as there was 20 or 30 years ago when I was first acquainted with East London. 17530. (Chairman.) Is that so ?—I do not think there is so much overcrowding. I see the East London Dwell- ings Company cannot let their rooms in Bethnal Green; that does not look like overcrowding in our neighbour- hood. I saw that in the report of the East London Dwellings Company a week or two ago. 17531. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You would say the over- crowding is not so great?—I knew it, of course, in the very bad times, 30 years) ago, and the overcrowding then it seems to me was very much greater than it is now. It is bad enough now, but I think our standard is higher, and we notice things very much more than we did 30 years ago. 17532. Do you think, for such overcrowding as there is, the remedy lies to a certain extent in getting people to live out of London ?—I do, and I think that is acting pretty rapidly. What holds a large number of aliens together is the fact of their being Jews, and they would have toi live in the same neighbourhood. 17533. And they would have their synagogues?—Yes. 17534. Do you know anything about this plan Sir Samuel Montagu has told us about ?—Only what Sir Samuel Montagu himself said, of which I thoroughly approve. 17535. Organised dispersion?—Yes. 17536. Should you look hopefully to that as a remedy for the present evils ?—I should. 17537. So far as it goes, whether the population is Jew or Christian, there are real advantages in their living in the country in many ways?—Yes, I should like our Christian population to live out also. 6144. 17538. I suppose they are doing so?—They are doing 1 he Ben* so very rapidly. Canon 17539. Then generally you say you are impressed with Barnett. the rapidity with which these aliens become British 2Q Mar. >1903* citizens?—'Yes. -— 17540. Whether naturalised or not?—Yes. 17541. What do you say on the general question about officially endeavouring to restrict the immigration ? Do you think there is a case for it, or not?—I have had grave doubts, as I cannot see how it can be done. We should all like to exclude criminals, but how to find any mesh that will keep a criminal from coming through I cannot imagine. 17542. Have you any reason to suppose that any large number of criminals do dome over en masse with this immigration, or do you suppose the criminal immigra- tion is a somewhat different stream ?—I should imagine ifc is a somewhat different stream, but that is only a matter of imagination. People I know do not seeim to me to be possible criminals. 17543. {Chairman.) It is not quite imagination, be- cause you can look at nationalities, and if you see the Russian Poles are not affected, and you see a great many Germans, it would lead to rather a different in- ference as to what you would do?—Yes. 17544. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) One has to consider what they are convicted of and what the nature of the crime is. A great many people figure as criminals who under the present state of the law are convicted of offences which are not very distinctively criminals—'Street ob- structions, and soon?—Yes. 17545. (Chairman.) As regards foreign criminals we take the test whether they have been convicted of a crime which is also a crime in this country ?—That is so. 17546. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is there anything: else you wish to add ?—I think not. 17547. (Major Evans-Gordon.) When you speak of the condition of these people your knowledge* is confined chiefly to Whitechapel, is it not ?—Yes. 17548. Where mostly they have been resident a con- siderable time?—There are a good many new ones who come in. They come into the schools from the Conti- nent. 17549. But do the new arrivals go further afield— more into Stepney and more eastward ?—I do not know whither they go from there. We have got our share. 17550. Whitechapel is pretty well full up already ?—■ Yes; but there is always someone moving out. 17551. (Lord Bothschild.) Speaking generally, I sup- pose, so far as morality is concerned, you would con- sider they do not compare unfavourably with their Gentile neighbours ?—No. 17552. They are no better and no worse?—They are no better and no worse. They are sober, and more sober than their Gentile neighbours, as a rule. 17553. You have lived so long in the East End that you might be able to give the Commission some views about curing overcrowding, without any regard to the aliens ?—I think the sanitary law should be much more rigorously enforced. It has never been rigorously en- forced yet. It is being enforced better than it has been, but it might be better enforced still. I think that is the first thing, and the next thing is that better means of communication should be more readily pro- vided. It is a great abuse that we should still have, these horse-trams labouring down our road when we. might have electric trams sweeping people out into> the country, and I find that many who can move into> the country very often do move. A good many men that I know myself have moved down to Ilford quite. lately, and are living down there. 17554. You have had 30 years' experience in the East. (End. Would you say, generally speaking, without; reference to creed or otherwise, that the condition- of the East End is better or worse now than it was 30« years ago ?^-It is better, measured by moral standards. People are more comfortable, they are better clad and better shod, and their pleasures are more sober. 17555. (Chairman.) And better fed?—Yes. 17556. {Lord Bothschild.) And so far as morality is. concerned, what do you say?—I think there is more gambling and a great deal more love of pleasure. There is a madness for pleasure. 17557. (Chairman.) Do you object to that?—I do to 4 M642 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Thpjlev. Cation B&rftett. some extent; this love of exciting pleasures I do not think is good. ___ 17558. You put in the word "exciting." If people ti&Mkr. 1903. can obtain pleasure, you do not object?—Not reason- ■' ....... able pleasure. 17559. (Mr. Vallance.) The crux of the question in the East End is this question of overcrowding, is it not?—Yes. 17560. Is it your strong opinion that the extent of overcrowding has diminished during the last 30 years, and not increased ?—That would be my own impres- tion, judging from what I myself see, because, as I said to Lord James just now, I think our standard has gone up very much. We do not put up with things which were put up with when I first went to East London. 17561. Your friend amid neighbour, the Rev. Mr. Carter, an giving evidence, was asked by the Chairman, " In many places the night population far exceeds the day, 'but the reason is that the poorer people are driven in,of a night," and the answer is : "I believe you may stand -at some large blocks of buildings, and imagine that an excursion train has just arrived; I gather that from people whom I have taken into my confidence, and who nave taken me into theirs, and that is my con- scientious belief, although it isonlyan impression." Do you agree with that ?—I km>w there is overcrowding now, but in my memory Afcris no t what it was in the old days, when I went in some of the smaller houses which used to exist, as you know. 17562. {Chairman.) I do not think you can put your views so high as to make us think there is anything wrong in the returns. We know the population in the district of Stepney -and the number of tenements, and, apart from the difficulty we have in defining a tene- ment now, that gives us pretty certain evidence if we contrast different periods. Do you think your general observation would counteract such a contrast of popula- tion ?—'Have you the statistics for 25 years iago ? 17563. We go back to 10 years ago, certainly?—I do not think they did it *so carefully in those old days. . 17564. But you get the number of 'houses, : and we also get >a return of the different numbers of people in one room for 1891 ?—'Yes. 17565. (Mr. Vallance.) Appalling conditions existed in your immediate neighbourhood before the erection of new buildings ?—Yes. 17566. And in some parts of the district there is, you will adlmit, a deplorable condition of overcrowding now?—Yes, ia deplorable condition of overcrowding, 17567. And) that condition is not conducive to the prosperity or well-being of the district, and' it -should be remedied ?—Quite so. 17568. Have you in your -mind any machinery which might be devised to deal with thai question itself, apart from any question of alien immigration?—As I said just now to Lord Rothschild, I should apply the sani- tary law very much more vigorously. I do not think we Should stop to ask where people hiave to go. They ■should be moved out if overcrowding exists. 17560. Would you agree with the officials who- have /given evidence, and the magistrates: who have given ^evidence, that the feair of driving people out into the -street is more apparent than real %—Yes, I should apply the law rigorously. You are an advocate of rigorous laws, and you know what happens with the Board of 'Guardians. I should apply it in the same way. 17570. In the event of the municipal 'authority finding an area, greajt or small, in which there was >a congestion of population, and there was overcrowding—I may say indecent overcrowding, and by indecent over- 'Crowding I mean overcrowding by others than members of one family—would you be- in favour, if it was found practicable, of excluding entrance under rearnlations to be framed by the municipal authority? —Is that practicable ? I should have thought not. 17571. Assuming it for a moment?—No, I should not do it. 17572. We will take a street which you would know in your district, and, supposing: the conditions there were evident to the municipal authority, would, you say that the municipal authority should sit still and allow natives or foreigners to come into that street, which is already indecently .overcrowded?—-I think I would -rather deal with cases as they arise than make a law "to prevent anyone coming in, generally. 17573. (Chairman.) How would you deal with it if it arose? If you turned a person out, and did not pre- vent him coming in, but turned him out on the .Mon- day morning, and saw him come in on the Tuesday night, that would be simply repeating it?—'Then I would turnj him out on the Wednesday morning again. 17574. But that is repetitive ?—'When once people un- derstood that the law was going to be rigorously en- forced, you would not have that occurring. 17575. You would not prevent people coming in, be- cause you think you cannot ?—Yes. 17576. (Mr. Vallance.) Here is a house in which there are 15 persons. The sanitary authority are of opinion that the number which that one house -will accommodate is seven. Would the sanitary authority be justified, in your opinion, in saying we shall allow no entrance into this house, except with our permission, seeing that it is already indecently overcrowded—we will not interfere for the moment with the number, so as ito oast them into the street, but no> other person shall enter there without our permission?—I think it would foe so difficult, and I think it would be so open to all sorts of clever dodges, by which people would get round it. So I should much prefer to say at once, "Seven of you people must move out." 17577. (Chairman.) When you say it would foe difficult I do not understand. Mr. Vallance would suggest abso- lutely physically drawing a cordon round by policemen, and so on, and saying no one must go in; but why not make it an offence for the paramount tenant or the letting landlord to allow any person to come in?—I do not think you would prevent them doing it. They would have people in by nighffc 17578. If you did find it out a crime would be com mitted. It is a deterrent to make it a crime, and if you make it a crime, and if you can find them out, then punish them for allowing it ?—But why allow the fifteen to come in? 17579. They may or may not remain in, but why not prevent them letting any more in ? 17580. (Mr. Vallance.) Might I put the question in another form. You are not in favour of any restriction to the immigration in the Port of London?—On the whole I am not. 17581. Would not some arrangement of that sort amount to automatic dispersion of the people ?—You would apply it simply to a house, and you would say thla/t in certain houses where we now believe overcrowd- ing to exist we will admit no more people. Then it seems to me you condone the offence by allowing over- crowding to exist. 17582. No, where the overcrowding exists, the sanitary authority would register that house, and the house once registered would enable the sanitary authority to put in force regulations ?—But would it not'foe obvious that A has a house overcrowded with fifteen people livinig in it. He gets authorised for those fifteen people, B, in the next street, get® seven, and he- says " Why should I not get fifteen there, and have the same right of occupa- tion?" ■ 17583. I have not made myself understood. I am not suggesting that the overcrowding of that seven should foe condoned. I am only dealing now with the question of exclusion from the house—houses in a limited area under given circumstances, apart from pro- ceedings for overcrowding ?—Well, it seams to me that if you allow a house to go on with these fifteen people in it, and simply say no more shall enter; that is your idea. 17584. (Chairman.) No, no. Notice shall be given to the owner of the house: " Whereas your house, No. 41 Brewer Street, is only capable of holding seven persons^ and whereas it now holds fifteen, you must remove the eight persons therefrom, and you must not in the future allow more than seven to come in ? "—Yes, 17585. (Sir IKenelm Digby.) Cannot you do that already P (iWitness.) Why cannot you do that now? 17586. (Chairman.) But it is not done?—'But it can be done under the law. 17587. (Mr. Vallance.) If the law was strengthened to prevent the excess of that seven ?—That is all I mean. . I thought you meant that the 15 were to go on living in the house.MINUTES OF EVIDENCEi 643 t: 17588. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You can prosecute in the •case of the 15-already ?—Yes* 17589. (Chairman.) Is it quite clear that that is the law?—You. do not give notice at present to anybody to «iay how many persons may go into the house and maike it an offence to take more in. (Sir. Kenelm Digby.) The bye-laws fix that. 17590. (Chairman.) I should like to see the bye-law which provides for giving notice to the. person in advance as to how many he may take in. You judge of -each case as it arises. Does it give: notice to each owner as to the number the house can hold ?—I could oaott answer that, my Lord. I should have said it did. I was arguing on that assumption. • 17591. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is one of the advan- tages, is it not, of proceeding by bye-laws that you can define what overcrowding is, and that you can at once say whether there is overcrowding if there are so many people in the cubic space ?—Yes. 17592. (Chairman.) I am not referring to registered lodging houses. I am speaking generally of overcrowd- ing. Your view is that you would turn them out and keep them out too?—Yes, I would, and if that were done for a year we should find quite a different opinion among the public about it. 17593. (Sir Kamlm Dighy.) I suppose a very large proportion of houses are lodging houses, are they not ? —There is an increasing number of registered lodging houses. The, Rev. Canm 7$afnett. 26 MaO90£ Mr. Henry Herman Gordon, called; and Examined. T 17594. (Lord Bothschild.) You were born in Germany . of Russo-Polish parents, and your father is one of the ministers of the Synagogue?—He is. 17595. First of all you were educated at the Jews' Free School, and then passed through various; universi- ties, including Cambridge?—Yes. 17506. Yofu were in India some time as a. railway engineer, but now you live in the borough of Stepney, -where you have spent the greater part of your life?— 'Yes., 17597. I believe you had the name of " Gordon " when your parents lived in Russia, and it is not a name that your father took when he came here?—"Gordon" has been the name of my family for at least 100 years and more. 17598. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is one of the com- monest names in Russia. You see it everywhere?—Yes. (Chairman.) Doe® it com© from a Scotch origin ? 17599. (iMajor Evans-Gordon.) I was told out there it came from a corruption of the word " Grodno"?—I do not think it is in the least likely, because the Jewish : family of " Gordon" does not come from the province of " Grodno," but comes from the Russian province of Kovnoi; so if there was any local connection with the name of " Gordon" and " Grodno " the " Gordons" would have come from there. But I have other reasons which would make it impossible for the name of " Gor- don " to come from the Russian province of " Grodno.'" 17600. (Chairman.) Does your family trace it as a Russian name, or do you trace it back to Scotland ?— .No; we have no knowledge of tracing it back to Scot- land. Our only knowledge is that our name has been what it is for considerably over 100' years. 17601. (Lord Bothschild.) You wish to make some re- marks on the char act eristicisi of the alien immigrants when they arrive?—I should like to state about the alien immigrants that it would not be quite fair to try and differentiate them from the general class of popula- tion. The alien immigrant strikes me always-as being a; man very much like other men and is actuated by exactly the same motives and the same impulses as ordinary people. They find their condition of life in the placesi where they come from unsatisfactory, and they try to improve their lot by coming over here. I do not think they are attracted over here by the existing charities. I have spoken to large numbers, of them and tried to find out indirectly from them whether they knew there were large charities over here, but I have never been able -to elicit from them that they were .aware of the existence of these charities and came over in consequence of the existence of these charities. 17602. You say that none of them are brought over here under any contract of labour?—Not to my know- ledge, except in one case which has been already referred to before the 'Commission, and in that case they were not Jews. 17603. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The German bottle case? —The German bottle case. That is the only case I know of. 17604. (Lord Bothschild.) You have something to say about the age of the immigrants ?•—-lie immigrants who come over here are generally either in the prime of life or under. That is the characteristic of emigrants all over the world. It is only young people who emigrate, aiid not the old ones. Taking the statistics of people 6144. passing through the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter those people are not weak in any way. I find during the last 10 or 12 years no less than 26,000 aliens and more were classified, and their ages were taken. Their ages were taken not over here, but as given before they arrived in this country when they took their ticket, and I find that out of the 26,000 no less than 70 per cent, were under 30 years of age ; about 20 per cent, were between 30 and 40; and 10 per cent, over 40. 17605. You wish to give reasons why they settle in the East End of London?—They settle in the East End of London mainly because they find, there the conditions of life with which they are most familiar. 17606. (Chairman.) Language?—Yes, language. I desire to say nothing more on that point. 17607. (Lord Bothschild.) What are the relations between the immigrants and the natives ?—On the whole they have been very good hitherto. I think there has been a splendid exhibition of tolerance on the part of the Christian people who inhabit the East End of London, and those conditions still prevail with insignificant ex- ceptions. Attempts have been made to make this question one of anti-Semitism, but on the whole the attempts of people to make this an anti-Semitic question have entirely failed. There are a large number of Jews who serve on local bodies. I have a list here of such, both on borough councils, boards of guardians, and other local authorities. 17608. You wish to contradict the evidence which has been given here that it is very common to see the words No English need apply " ?—'That is, I believe, an abso- . lute untruth. When this statement was first made I inquired of Christian friends, mainly, who were work- ing in the East End of London, and asked them whether they had seen it. I myself have tried to discover such places, and I have not discovered them. The mian who made the statement on being appealed to to furnish proofs wrote to the papers asking if they would furnish particulars. The only case I know of is qne told me by Mr. Alderman Silver^ the late President of the British Brothers' League, and' the landlord in question was not a Jew. 17608*. I do not think it is necessary to go into the ' question of the virtues and vices. (Chairmcm.) I do not want to stop this, but we have had a great deal of evidence on it both ways. 17609. (Lord Bothschild.) What is your view of? the influence of the alien immigrants on the general trade, and on the retail trade?—'The influence of the alien sentiment has certainly been anything but prejudicial to the general trade of the district. Two great indus- tries, for which in previous years East London was famous, have entirely left the district, but in neither case was the advent of the alien the slightest contribu- tory cause. Referring to a map, which I propose to present to you later on, you wild see that all over the map there are dotted " Sugar refineries," which have entirely disappeared. The alien had absolutely nothing to do with this. Another staple industry in East London in former days was silk weaving, and that has disappeared. Then, another staple industry in East London is brewing. This shows, of course, every sign of prosperity, even in East London, because all the breweries seem to be extending their premises, and are pulling down not merely individual houses,- but even whole streets, to provide room for the exten- sion of their breweries, and, of course, no provision is 4 m 2 Mr. H. H. Gordon*644 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. E. made for re-hou&ing. Then, as regards the influence Gbvtkm. on the retail trades, the big retail establishments in fcfiMa* iqhs ma^n ro'a^s have certainly no cause of complaint . against the alien immigrant. Firms like YenaJbles, Gardiner's, Longuehaye's, and many more, seem to flourish exceedingly, if the extension of premises and rebuilding to obtain more accommodation ,are any cri- terion. Gardiner's has particularly cause for grati- tude. The alien introduced the trades on wfhicih the fkm -mainly depends, -and he has become the firm's per- haps most numerous customer. So* far as: I am aware, 110 member of the firm is a Jew. For some time trade among ithe Mile End Road shopkeepers, among Chris- tian traders, has been in a very depressed condition. They have sent deputations to the Stepney Borough •Council, (asking them to take action to remedy the main reason on account of which they were suffering, and the reason they gave us was not the injury of alien immigrants, but because the Mile End Road had been in >a continued state of upheaval, so that carts could ( t not get to their establishments, and, consequently; they .v . were losing their trade. That is the reason the Mile End -traders gave for having suffered loss. As regards ~fche small retail establishments, I think it must be con- fessed that the small Christian shopkeepers seem to Thave suffered. It has been suggested by witnesses be- fore the Commission that there are religious reasons ynderlying the preference of the immigrants for deal- ing among themselves, one even going so far as to in- •sdnuate the Rabbis ordered them only to do so. It is ^unnecessary to say that the latter half of the statement is absolutely untrue, and the former is open to ques- tion. It is true that at first the aliens deal largely ;among themselves, but the reason for their so doing is the siame economic law which applies to them and all ^others, namely, the law of buying in the most suitable market. ^ On their first arrival, the wages earned by the immigrants are naturally small. Their purchases are in similar ratio. Sugar by the ounce, tea by the ha'porth, oreven farthing's worth, are usual purchases. Even as it Is, credit is largely given, -and the books have naturally to be kept in the language the purchaser understands. The Yiddisher small shopkeeper is best able to accommodate himself to the requirements of iftie immigrants, and so he survives in the struggle for '-existence. Apart from these considerations, there is no preference for inter-trade among the aliens. Per- haps even on the contrary. It has been stated that • Jews prefer to live in houses owned by non-Jews. It •appears that where ia Christian shopkeeper (say, a ; grocer) accommodates himself to the requirements of the alien Jew, it even pays him to have regard for their •susceptibilities. For instance, Councillor Belcher re- ferred to the grievances of Christian tradesmen, be- cause, in the matter oif Passover cakes—'also of grocery for that feast—Jews deal only among themselves. It may be mentioned that the food for Passover has to be kept, in accordance with the laws of the Jewish religion, 'carefully -apart from all contamination from leaven, and Jews are most observant dn this respect. The ec- clesiastical authorities specify that the wheat from which the Passover cakes are to be iniade, must be English grown, and it is ground in English mills. All this is done by Hion-Jews, under the supervision of a man delegated to see that there is no -admixture of foreign stuffs. Or, again, take Passover grocery. For years and years past, Messrs. Hawkins', ia large Chris- tian firm of grocers in Whiteehapel High Street, have paid a man, technically called a " Shomer," watcher, to be in their shop when they dealt in Passover grocery. Presumably, it pays; Messrs. Webb, wine dealers, do likewise. 17610. (Chairman.) This is going very much into detail?—Then I will not continue that part of my evidence. 17611. (Lord Rothschild.) On the question of the .aloofness of the J ew, what have you to say ?—I do not , think there is any justification for the statement that there is any aloofness on the part of the alien Jews. 'They take an interest in everything, local affairo and all others. 17612. (Chairman.) When they come over their -ignorance of the language must be some reason for their aloofness?—That is so at first, but afterwards they take a keen interest in surrounding aff airs. 17613. (Lord Rothschild.) What, Lord James wished to know about was the arrangements which were made •for taking the Census?—I should like to make some remarks with reference to the questions raised this corning about the aliens and naturalisation. There are a number of naturalisation societies in East London —I know of three, the East London, the Metropolitan Naturalisation Society, and the Spitalfields Naturalisa- tion Society. The taliens as a class are very keen on becoming naturalised. They regard it as a sort of cachet of respectability to be able to point to the fact that they are now British subjects. The people who become naturalised have to pay a weekly subscription. I have here a form of membership card of one of these alien immigrants, and this shows exactly what it is. They have to pay one shilling or so a week until the sum of £7 is paid, which enables them, to be natu- ralised. The only reason why they are naturalised is simply their desire to claim the privileges as well as the burdens of citizenship. 17614. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How do you make up the £7? The fee is £5, is it not?—Then there are other expenses. It varies from £7 to £7 10s. 17615. (Chairman.) They regard naturalisation as beneficial?—They regard it as beneficial. 17616. Would you seek to lower the fees?—If you lower the fees it would tend to make a larger number of them become naturalised, and that, of course, would be desirable. But even under the present conditions a very considerable number of them do become naturalised. 17617. There is. no point involved in this. There is nothing but the account of the reasons. There is no deduction from all this information?—The only deduc- tion I want to draw from it is that the aliens are desirous of bearing the burdens of citizenship. 17618. (Sir Kenelm iJDigby.) What do you say as to the period of residence?—I should not propose to reduce that period. It would take that time to give some evidence of character. 17619. (Lord Rothschild.) You wish to make some re- marks which I think would interest the chairman about the placards in Yiddish P—Yes. 17620. I think you say in your evidence, "Mr. Johnson, of the British Brothers League, and others, have complained of the increasing use of Yiddish in East London as evidenced by the numerous placards in that language everywhere observed on walls and boardings. The responsibility for this rests almost as much with the opponents as friends of the alien immi- grants " ?—That is so. 17621. Will you kindly explain that to the Coin- mission?—At the Works Committee of the Stepney Borough Council, I moved that certain printing should not be done in Yiddish, as had been proposed. The- Works Committee accepted my view, and recom- mended to the) Council that all the printing done by/ the Council of Stepney, should be done in English, Councillor Barr-att, who came here, and gave evidence against the aliens, moved that the printing should' be done m Yiddish, and, subsequently, he carried his ^solution, and the result is that a large amount of Yiddish published by the Stepney Borough Council! is on the walls of Stepney, as we see now. 17622. Then with regard to the missionaries, wh&fe have you to say?—They are constantly advertising lectures and sermons intended to convert Jews to Christianity. Then, too, I am sorry to say, in public ejections, too often, men who are trying to represent English constituencies, put up Yiddish posters. J regard it as being most detrimental to the efforts we are making to Anglicize the alien immigrants and it is encouraging them by putting up these Yiddish posters. A great deal of the Yiddish seen about London is, due to recognition of the fact that the alim immU grants are people whom it pays us to trade with lake, for instance, Stepney Borough Council eled tricity works. They have published a Yiddish pam- phlet showing the advantages of eledtrieity, and a large number of consumers of electricity belonging to the Stepney Borough Council are alien immigrants. It is not too much to say that if it were not for the enterprise of the alien immigrants there would be a loss on our electric lighting accounts, which the ordinary rates would have to bear. • 17i?3' ('^airman.) What is the object of publish- ing the placards m Yiddish, because they have no votes unless they are naturalised ?—But everybody who is naturalised does not necessarily read English. 17624. (Lordltothschild.) Yaa say the rising genera- tion, and not only the rising generation, but the younger members of the Jewish community all gpeafc English?—They all do, invariably. PMINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 645 17625. (Chairman.), Is it not a condition that they should be able to read and write in English before they are! naturalised?—I do not think it is. 17626. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is no linguistic test at all?—No. (Chairman.) It seems to be an idea in iStepney that people who are (not naturalised do vote. 17627. (Major Evans-Gordon.)-It hasi been done?— But urgent steps were taken to remove all who were not properly on the register, and I do not think there is even one per cent, on now who should not he. 17628. Those steps depend on the way the man is likely to vote ?—Possibly that is so. 17629. (Lord Bothsvhild.) Would you explain the ar- rangements for the census ?—I was honorary organis- ing secretary of the committee of Jewish ministers and lay workers, who, under the chairmanship of the chief Rabbi, sought to assist the work of the duly appointed census officials so as to render the returns from East London as complete and unquestioned as the returns from other districts which do not com- prise any considerable number of aliens. It is a source of great regret to me that our motives should have been subsequently so se>arohingly questioned, and our purpose (perhaps even) so wilfully misunderstood by those to whom the returns, when published, were unpleasing, as not accordant with their theories. The reasons for the formation of this committee I stated in an interview I had with a representative of the " London Argus," on March 22nd, 1901, that is long before this Commission was suggested. Speaking of the arrangements we had made, I stated: "I am not sure that it is altogether necessary to have made all these careful regulations and preparations, hut it is only carrying out what is a prominent trait in the Jewish character. Their religion teaches them to prav for, and be loyal to, the land they live in; and they felt that, inasmuch as the presence of a num- ber of their foreign co-religionists might he putting a certain amount of burden on the census officials, in consequence of the inability of these immigrants to speak English,, it was their duty to make arrange- ments to obviate the difficulty. The ordinary census papers to he delivered, in the East End districts are just the same as in other parts of the Metropolis, and we go round to see the people and obtain the replies to the questions asked. If our friends cannot write, we fill out the paper for them." The scheme of operations was as follows: — The Jewish area of East London was sub-divided into 32 smaller areas, each of which was taken charge of by the Jewish minister or lay worker who ordinarily visited the district. He organised a band of helpers so that his allotted area should be completely covered. I supplied each visitor with an outline map of his district. I submit a specimen. Particular attention was called to streets and courts, and even individual houses which required especial at- tention. The visitors went from house to house helping people toi make out their returns, and for the benefit of those who' were not at home, central stations were provided to which they might come and be assisted. Lessons were given in the Jewish schools to all the children, in order that they might know what the Census was for. Considering the fact that the Census was factually taken by the authorised Census! officials, who were assisted by men of the social standing I have described above, Mr. Arnold White's scepticism of the Census seems rather uncalled for. Subsequently, when Mr. Arnold White questioned the accuracy of the Census reports, I wrote to the Superintendent-Registrar for Whitechapel, asking him whether he was content with our efforts, and this is the reply which I have received from Mr. William Vallance, the Superintendent-Regis- trar, dated the 28th November, 1901: —" Whitechapel, District No. 17. Register Office, Baker's. Row, White- chapel, E.—Dear Mr. Gordon,—I am much obliged to you for sending me cutting from an article by Mr. Arnold White in the £ Daily Express ' of the 26th instant, in which it is suggested that, for the reasons therein stated, ' the Census returns of Russians and Poles are worthless.' If the reference is1 to the Census returns of this district, I have no hesitation in saying that there is no justification for the suggestion that ' the enumeration was not performed by Census officials, but was entrusted to an unchecked and irresponsible body, whose descent would naturally incline towards the immigrants.' As the responsible officer charged with the arrangements for taking the Census in this district, I desire to state thai I am more than satisfied with the manner in which the Mr. Jtfk M. enumerators did their duty and with the results of Gordon. the enumeration. At the outset I confess I was appalled ^ jy[ar 1QQ3 at the difficulties of securing accurate and complete _ • returns* of the large foreign population of the district, but, thanks to the hearty co-operation of Dr. Adler, Chief Rabbi, and a large body of workers, not forgetting your own giant work of organisation, the result has been beyond my most sanguine hopes. I would state in the most emphatic way that no one other than the official enumerators' was eintrusted with the actual enumeration, and that the efforts of yourself and others were alone directed (1) to* educating, the alien popula- tion in regard to the objects of the Census, and in seeking to remove prejudice and suspicion,; and (2) in assisting householders in filling up their schedules, where necessary by reason of their ignorance1 of the English languages The actual responsibility, however, was- with the official enumerator, whose duty it was to satisfy himself that every schedule handed to him was complete and accurate. I acknowledge gratefully the part you took in organising the band of voluntary workers, and I adopt your words and say that your efforts were directed ' to assist and not displace the duly appointed Census officials.' As I have said, I am more than satis- fied with the work of the Census in this district; and nothing has occurred since the actual enumeration to justify any distrust on the part of the public. You may use this reply.—Faithfully yours, W. Vallance, Superintendent Registrar." I desire to say nothing more about that part of my evidence, but I should like to give some evidence with regard to the housing problem as affected by alien immigration. The lack of housing accommodation for the industrial classes is: a regrettable feature in nearly the Whole of London, but there are few places, if any, where the hardships thisi entails are so clearly noticeable as in Stepney. It is true that in Southwark the density of the population seems greater, being 182.22 per acre, as compared with 169.12 per acre in Stepney. In the former case, how- ever, the extreme® do not approach in magnitude the differences to be observed in the latter. Then I quote the figures showing the figures in density of population in various parts of the borough. But I should like to call attention to this particular fact in the population distribution in Stepney, and that is this, that the nearer to the City the denser the population. Taking Mile End Old Town., west, it is 193 persons per acre. Then Mil© End Old Town, east, that- is further from the City, has only 143 people per acre. It is true the registration district of Goodman's Fields, immediately adjacent to the City, seems to contradict this assertion, having only 125 per acre. This district will be dealt with in extenso later on. It is unnecessary to detail all the evils resulting from the overcrowding, the existence of which is indisputable. Neither the virtues of the immi- grants nor the advantages their presence has conferred on the country in general, and the district in particular, would outweigh the injury done by them, if it could be established that by their presence they are directly responsible for1 the excessive rents and consequent over- crowding in Stepney. But, in my opinion, they are not responsible for the dis-housing of the native popu- lation in Stepney, and I propose to produce some dia- grams which will illustrate how the housing question has originated in Stepney, and how all the causes were anterior to the alien immigration. 17630. (Chairman.) What is your proposition that the overcrowding has proceeded from ?—From causes anterior to the advent of the alien immigrant. 17631. Keep close on that and show us that?—I, first of all, speak of the growth of London as a whole, and then deal more particularly with Stepney as a whole, The 19th century was conspicuous by the growth of London and the large increase of population. In all time during the last century the population of London was largely augmented by non-Londoners. Taking the year 1861, for instance, that is long before the alien immigration can be said to have begun, the numbers of Londoners born, living in London, was only 62-10 per cent.; in 1871 it was 63 per cent. 17632. The difference is. not the -alien population, be- cause vou have the provincial ?—Yes. (Chairman.) Keep to the aliens a® closely as you can. 17633. (Mr. Vallance.) If I understand aright, what you mean is there is a certain percentage of non-London born, and that the overcrowding was then occasioned by that proportion, and the proportion of non-London646 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : H. born, including the aliens, has not increased ?—That is ^Gordon. so. The first diagram, Diagram. A, illustrated the ' operations of the excess of the birth-rate over the 19Q3' death-rate and of immigration in increasing, the London population. Up to the year 1881, the excess births and immigration exceeded the emigration from London, and London grew. During the last 20 years the growth of * London has been retarded by the excess of migration from it. 17634. (iChairman.) What do you include in " Lon- don"?—-The County Council London. 17635. Then migration is to the suburbs P—That is so*. 17636. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Buit it' is the incidence of alien immigration that affects the point. You can- not argue from London generally ?—To borrow an ana- logous term from physical science, the year 1881 may be said to mark for London as a whole the point of " complete saturation "—that is to say, the point when London was as full as it could be, and could no longer receive within its confines the* whole of its naturally increasing population. 17637. (Chairman.) That was in 1881?—Yes. It is noticeable from the diagram that during the three cental periods preceding 1881 the gain due to excess immigration was constantly diminishing as London filled more and more, until in 1881 it vanished. Any considerable increase in population after 1881 was bound to lead to overcrowding in London as a whole. The above coloured portions show the increase due to immi- gration, plus excess of births. 17638. (Chairman.) Is this a decrease of emigration or a decrease of population you are speaking of?—It is a decrease of population. I mean to say that a town increases in growth because the people tend to> increase, and oecause other people may come to the town. Up to a certain point London grew. 17639. Your blue shows a decrease in population?— Yes. 17640. Due toi emigration?—Yes. It is a decrease in population due to> emigration from it. 17641. And tan increase of immigration?—Yes. 17642. In 1881, did this migration into the suburbs proceed from the increased workmen's trains, among other things, and the tendency of people to live out ?— It came from the fact that at that time there was pro- bably a balance between the advantages of residing in town and the advantages of residing in the 'country. In the history of any town there always comes a period when the advantages of living in town are counter- balanced by the attraction of the country residence. 17643. The growth of the town population pushes the population out into the suburbs ?—That is so, 'and that occurred in London in the year 1881. Bait the whole of London did not grow at a uniform rate. Diagram B shows the rate of the growth of Stepney and Islington during the last century. As early as 1801 Stepney boasted of a population of 113,281, as compared with 10,212, whjioh then comprised the northern borough. 17644. Compared with what ?—'Stepney had 113,000 and Islington had 10,000 in the year 1801. In 1881 the populations were equal. 17645. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Where do you get the figures for 1801 from ?—'From the Census statistics. 17646. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Islington was quite a country village then,?—Yes, quite a country village. You will find these figures in Dr. Thomas' Report on Stepney's Health in 1901, pp. 8 and 9. In 1881 the populations were equal, 17647. (Chairman.) There you get tihe poimt of con- tact?—-Yes. Im 1901 Islington contained 335,000, as compared with 298,000 in Stepney. 17648. What was the population for point of contact 1 •—I am afraid I have not got that here. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) 280,000 it would ibe. 17649. (Chairman.) Islington, I suppose, had more space into which to expand ?—Yes, but now Islington is being overfilled ; but there is emigration going on from Islington. 17650. (Mr. Vallance.) What do you deduce from these figures?—I propose to dediuce from these figures that .alien immigration was not one of the real causes which produced the housing problem in Stepney. 17651. Is there not a little danger of attaching too much importance to these figures? The inflow into London from the provinces may be relatively very small, of later years, and, consequently, you get a very small number, compared with what it was years ago, non- London born?—The proportion of non-Londoners born, is practically constant. 17652. I think we must not attach too much import- ance to these figures, or else we shall get into another difficulty, because your figures show a decrease of non- London born population, including the aliens ?—Yes ; but we must admit there has been a large increase of: alien population. 17653. (Chairman.) The importance of this last point is this : that we have not any particulars of alien immi- gration dealing with the Stepney population before the year 1881, and now this diagram shows that the in- crease was greater in Stepney in 1881 than it is now ?-— I desire to point out that the whole growth of Stepney occurred long before the alien advent. The population, of Stepney was so dense that it contained one-ninth of the total inhabitants of London, and so it was only natural that "point of complete saturation" should be reached in Stepney before the same point was at- tained by the metropolis as a whole. May I ask youi now to look at the next diagram. As early as 1851, 30 years before the rest of London, and an equal period before alien immigration commenced to exercise the slightest influence, Stepney was " saturated," and people were already forced to leave it for want of house - room. 17654. What does that 230 and 240 mean on this,, diagram ?—The population in thousands. 17655. Were there 230,000 in Stepney in 1850?;— Yes. It is not that Stepney grew more rapidly than, the rest of London. On the contrary, the rate of in- crease in the East End hai> been always largely less, than that of the metropolis as a whole, diagram B1 illustrates these features of the question. 17656. What do you wish to show from these figures ?. As the years go on, the population goes on increasing. Does the blue show the decrease in population ?—The blue shows the decrease in population due to the fact , that people had to leave the part of the borough in. which they lived. It shows that this emigration from Stepney of native Stepney born has been .going on ever • since the year 1851, as compared with the general emi- gration from London im 1881. 17657. I do not follow this. What do you do with_ the Stepney born, because a man may be born down in. Kent and come into Stepney, I do not see how that , affects the comparison with the alien population ?—Per- haps I had better explain how this diagram has been prepared. Taking the year 1851: in the year 1851 - there were, roughly, 240,000 people in Stepney. During ; the 10 years a number of people were born in the Borough of Stepney. That would be the normal in- crease in the population of Stepney during the 10 years, and if these people remained in Stepney, the popula- tion of Stepney would have been ih the Census of 1861 about 260,000. 17658. If nobody had come in?—'If nobody had come in» 17659. Or gone out?—Or gone out, and the people- had remained there. I am only taking the excess of * births, over deaths, so that the total increase is what, would have been shown by the line in blue if they had stopped. But, as a matter of fact, they did not all stop, and a number of people had to leave Stepney as - early as 1861, because, practically, there was no room. That is long before the alien advent. ' 17660. Where do you get that from ?■—I get that from.«. the diagram. 17661. Where do you get the diagram from?—The - diagram is compiled from Census figures. 17662. You say the people went out because there ■ was no room. Where do you get that fact from?—'I deduce it from my knowledge of local conditions. 17663. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say that if there had' been no advent, and you had simply taken the birth. rate at the same rate as it had been in London, the * line would have been in Stepney as the dotted line ?-— Yes. 17664. (Chairman.) I am not doubting that, but I' want to know where you get your inductive facts from that the people went out because there was no room. That is arguing in the most vicious circle I ever heard.' of?—I say the reason why they had to leave was be- cause Stepney was always full of the population.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 647 (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not know what the Step- ney oi ±801 was, what it comprised, or what its boun- daries were. In the memory of living people and hun- dreds of friends of mine in Stepney, that district round tbe Londbn 'Hospital anld onwards was open country. There is no comparison at all between the district then and as it is now. These figures do not lead us any- where, I submit, really, because outside Mile End Gate we Guad the open country. You must remember that, Mr. Vallance—there were fields close behind! the Mile End Road. {j Witness.) I am aware of these facts you mention. 17665. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is useless compar- .. ing ia thing of that kind with the thing now ?1—I am afraid you do not appreciate my point in that respect. Adjourned for a short time. 17666. (Chairman.) Now let us get to your next dia- gram?—I might just explain that all the figures that I ihlave put down on the diagram are absolutely al] •taken from the official source—the Census. No other figures are available, and, of course, no others can be taken. 17667. (Sir, Kenelm Digby.) Are you quite satisfied .about the meaning of the word " Stepney " ?—I have in- 'Cluded in what I call " Stepney " here the five Parlia- mentary Divisions now constituting the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney—that is to say, Whiteohapel, St. 'George's, Mile End, Stepney, and Limehouse. When I use the word " Stepney," I always use it "in the sense of •defining those five Parliamentary constituencies now in- rcorporated in the Borough of Stepney. 17668; (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The same area all throughout P—The same area all throughout, without any limitation. Now, Diagram C : -the number of per- sons per inhabited house has been constantly going up in- Stepney since 1841, which is long before the alien advent. Thus, between .1841 and 1861 the number in- «creased from 6*96 to 7*80 per house. The explanation is to be found in the fact that Stepney, being initially very full, building operations could not keep pace with the natural ^ growthof population, and overcrowding, together with -the competition for house room, which naturally brought about higher rentals, was bound to . seems ; to, show that tlie ' . 17710: 'l-hat is the" ti.ing tluu. would ainistus. Ti«/ jf j? ^ mufl'r of Jews residing nvthis counuy pOwerof toe b«lio« to buii.l does not telp us very S;;^a ^\^;T wi grQW1T thaa to mucfc; . jT'waiiitWiknaw 'wKat tliey Wbuih^Miay*•!1^^8?*T' .We, mast also make allowances We4r^ ■ ■■ ; : , *.» for the. areas, coloured; neutral - tint m the plan and tfoave built larger houses the increasing demand of- the .Jewish population itself ; < ^77H- The v ^ole; Pflint: is what is the accoonmoda- for workshops and factories. While, then, the total v,.^ion;,contained in the;larger, houses,, .compared with-the accommod ation has been only comparatively recently , ^comm^ation containedj'n the sm.alLones?—Yqu can- increased/. I dpubt if th^ same can be truly said if ■. notpiit it clown statistically as to the. number of rooms ;we fake into - account tfye other factors, such as natural you can only put it down as>a,_ general , ist&tement of; increase of population. . The dispersal."of the East End how, the, a4ditdonerl housing accommodation,/h&s ,heen Christian population I attribute to th^Joilowing chief . utilised, and ho\yit compares with the past-. causes : ,(1) Decay of former East End industries and 17712. .The. general statement is composed of th^ par- decline of work at the docks and on th$ river ; (2) con- ticular'Statement of how many people are in the new^ i^P^n>of ;residenitial . tp>industri|i^;areas ^ (3} sanitary buildings compared wiffi ;tlie old. Caitnot: you form ? clearances, and street improvements ; (4) inpreased at- • am airaid not. •• ' • • .* tractions of life;;way from the City owing, to improved '' (Mrl Ftithnee.) Might it not. be possible in.'" &cWtoes;^ , , the ^outh;^Ward of Whi&ba^l to schedule the nirmber 17724. (GHairman*) Why-, have not those causes' dis- of houses, multiplying' fey the number of rooms; and so persed the aliens as well s as Christians^ between 1881 ^*get4^p^^lMatei^the; ^mber; of rooms ddmpareid with an<^ 1891 ?—~Because the number of aliens w-as Com- pile -ntwnber of irooms now provided ?—There are very paratively limited -in those times; little building operations going on in the South Ward ' 17725'. But take the last 10 years. Why do. not they i: #£;W3iitech^peL . < X can, sjay bow. the additional accom- disperse equally as the Christians have f—There is 4n %e;.;©ase of JP^abody Buildings compared a system of dispersion going on now. Jewish syna- 5, with the previo&s, areas. 7 < , =.,; gogues are being . fcfahded/in the outskirtsViof: ]Lon- ' • 17714;5 (^airman.) Tfeat would be useful ?-—The ^on. original -area on which Peabody Buildings were accom- 17726. You have given these different causes. Whv mediated 3,750. people. When the "new buildings were do not these causes which have dispersed the Chris- built .the total number" of people who were accommo- tians, also disperse the alien^ population ?—One rea- •dated were 2,559; In bther wa;rds, in consequence of son is-that t.h^y were not engaged in tM same' class 1&e sanitary clearance, although. there was a lafrge*: ofindustries,as the^ Chri^iM-population which was • l>ldck ol%uildings ^ci^- th^e, there were fewer people displaced. Anotaher reason is, and that is the last . rehousefd, because they, were in more sanitary condi-1-.. reason have ^iyenl that they are undoubtedly able "ki°ns- . to pay higher rents than the non-Jewish population, ; 17715; .Those we,re tHe iaotual number of .people^underable .tojpay ihigher rents, it may pay the ' Iboth conditions ?—Yes, my Lord. 1 landlord to keep Ms jground when it is occupied by a ' '• ^ ^ r :rrl ihouse that is occupied by Jews, whereas it would • ^ overffowding.i not, able, to,pay the. h-igh-, r^nts,.. Tb:.t is ;why uiese ?-^i>Fhere i^ none .at the pre- ^,rea'Sons, dQs not- operate so much with the alien immi- ■ .- r > - v , c ; - grants. TOien I point, out. the laqt that it is, no use 17718. There you have, the evil .remedied ?—Yes, that tlTinS. tQ draw arguments from "gross forms of over- , Is. SO;.. ,..• r.:• ,f .. crowding, whidh undoubtedly exist"among aliens, but • ' 17719. (Sir Kcnelm Dujhy.) They would be different SatiST "ative-torn people re-housed ?—Practically 'different people were" £?u, "..... j the^ last thing I desire to deal re-housed 1 F p with is as regards remedies for tlie housing problem, tmorr /.rij, • \ A ! v ; ;; and .I say it would be absurd to imagine that tEe con- -d u i Whaivman.) Are they a better class in the;r , version,,of residential areas, to industrial purposes is ±!e»boayvBnildangs^rfr-BisitL'nctly, now. • ../ now gping, to stop, because I believe Stepney 'must 17721. With greater; comfort and health ?-JrWithr^and more a^n industrial cen^e,;-a|^-more greater comfort and health. f . pepple, ^oth aliens and: non-aliens, will. Jhaye to be 17722. (Sir Kcnelm Digby.) That pwblem lias not" ' ^!Pf801,P flUin"r' boCiWse musb bw-ome, by been solved yet of how to re-house the same neonl we^must the present overcrowding; which certainly is con- -spfetLs among the alL . immigrants. It is,^ >pr . It is stated, that there are mane- my opinion, mistaken kindness? on; the part of 6144. -»j 4 N80YAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. H. H. magistrates to refuse to grant an. order to abate over- ; • Gordon. ©rowdirig because the inhabitants could not find ac- r -—7 . '' commodation in the vicinity. The amount of space m Mar. 1903. allowed for an individual, under the Public Health Acts, is little enough, and no infringement of this minimum should be countenanced. If the law were rigorously enforced in East London the effect would be enormous in discouraging the settlement of aliens in the East End. It would prevent, to a very large ■extent, the sub-lettinig of rooms and taking in of lodgers which is now so-prevalent, and, finally, it would at least -remioive one cf the reasons by means of which aliei immigrants ar ^ enabled to pay higher rentals. • It is true that the alien, in consequence of his abstin- ence from alcohol, " which is an enormous yearly tax on the productiveness of British industry" (" Heart of the Empire," page 25), would still be able to pay a higher rental, but the conditions would become more approximately even. I believe a good deal might be done by the voluntary agency of the Jewish community ' in promoting decentralisation. 'And, finally, I should feel disposed to support the proposal to give 'magis- trates the power to order the repatriation of foreigners who have been convicted of crime within a limited period of their settlement in this country if this power could be exercised in accordance with International law. But I strongly doubt the desirability and fea- . sibility of any restrictive legislation based on a mone- tary test. 17728. (Major Evans-Gordon.) All that you say with regard to Stepney as an industrial centre points to its desirability as a place of residence in the neighbourhood of the City ?—Not as a place of residence, but rather as a f site for factories. 17729. You say since 1841 there has been a great desire to live there owing to the proximity of the river . and its situation generally?—I am afraid I "have not made myself clear. 17730. You say, " Between 1841 and 1861 the num- 1 ber increased from 6*96 to 7'80 per house. The ex- planation is to be found in the fact of Stepney being initially very full." All your evidence goes to prove that Stepney is a place where people-have always desired to live, and in 1801 you say 113,281 people were living there P—Yes. 17731. Then you say there are influences at work in destroying houses, such as railways, factories, schools, breweries, and sojorth?—Yes. 17732. All these things come as expulsive forces to the people?—They do. 17733. In addition to that you get a large influx of people from abroad P—Yes. 17734. That, surely, whatever the figure may be, whether 60,000 or 70,000, makes a very considerable additional pressure for house accommodation in that particular part of London?—In my opinion, the fact that the southern portion of Stepney is still largely of a residential character is simply due to the fact that the alien immigrants have been able to- pay higher . rents, and therefore have prevented Stepney beoming : evetri a greater industrial centre than it is at present. 17735. You say that the Englishman would have been displaced in any event?—In any event he would have been displaced, because he could1 not have paid the high rents. 17736. You say that the coming of the alien has not displaced him?—Not directly in that respect. 17737. (Chairman.) What do you mean by saying he could not pay the high rent ? There must have been someone who would come in to pay it, so as to oust him ? —Someone did come in. 17738. That is Major Gordon's proposition, that the person coming in did oust the native, and you give as a reason that he did it because he could pay the high * rent?—The landlord could get his return on his capital when, the ground is'utilised by the aliens as housing accommodation. , 17739. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I suppose you would admit that a very large foreign population and a popu- , latibn of largely foreign origin to a considerable extent must increase the demand' for house room in that part of London—pro tanto, at all events ?—Yes, I would fol- low you there. 17740, That disposes of the elaboration of figures, because that always exists?—I hope vou do not under- v ; stand1 me to say that alien immigration has absolutely s.,. nothing, to do with the housing problem. I never for one moment intended to assert that. Oil the contrary I admit it is one of the factors, and an important fac tor, but not the only factor, which is, of course, a1 entirely different thing. 17741. On page 3 of your statement you say: " I\ speaks volumes for their general constitutional strength that few, if any, are in the least degree the worse for the hardships they have undergone." Have you noticed what Mr. N. S. Joseph told us regarding the deplorable condition in which these people arrive?—I have not seen what Mr. N. S. Joseph has said on the matter,, but I have seen the alien immigrants immediately on their arrival, and I have seen them even when they stepped off the boat. Apart from the fatigues of travel, I cannot say that I was struck by any appearance of ill- health or non-desirability. 17742. Do you see large numbers of them?—Very large numbers of them, because I am joint honorary secretary of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter. 17743. You see them there?—I see them there. 17744. Do you deal with the same ones that Mr. Joseph deals with?—I have not really read |Mr. Joseph's evidence. If you will kindly quote it to me I should be prepared to answer with regard to it. 17745. He told us a lot about the infantile mortality being very heavy among them ?-—Among alien immi- grants? 17746. Yes. Then I asked him, "So we arrive at this, that the infantile mortality among Jewish people, especially among the new arrivals, is very high ? " and Mr. Joseph's answer is, "Very high indeed." Then I ask him, " You attribute that to the poverty they are in after they arrive and the attenuated condition in which they arrive ? " and his answer is, " Chiefly to the attenuated condition in which they do arrive," and so on. Then ho went on to< tell us how they had to be nursed into a decent condition of health, and they then became as strong as the others. You do not con- cur in that ?—I have absolutely no knowledge of what ground there is for Mr. Joseph making that statement. 17747. (Chairman.) I suppose they come in a, bad con- dition from the voyage ?—Yes, but I do not know what other agencies there are to nurse them back to a state of health in the way described. 17748. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Mr. Joseph was not speaking exclusively of the Salonica ones, but he wm speaking genemlly ?—It is certainly not the case so far - as our shelter is concerned. 17749. Are they in a better condition in the shelter? —'I think the alien immigrants in the shelter in all respects are typical. 17750. You do not agree with Mr. Lewis. You say there never has been the slightest anti-Semitism in the East End of London. Mr. Joseph and Mr. Greenberg seemed to think there is, and has been and will be. You differ there?—Entirely. I do-not think there has been the slightest anti-Semitism in East London until com- paratively recently. 17751. (Chairman.) Has there been any anti-alienism ? Very little of that, too. I can remember attending de- bates of working men at Toynbee Hall, and the onljr man who ever spoke in favour of alien restriction was the opener of the discussion, who never lived in East London. 17752. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is hardly typical^ is it ?—It is typical of the working classes. 17753. (Chairman.) When the Commissioners at- tended Stepney I thought there were some signs around us of considerable hostility to the aliens?—I admit this has sprung up recently, but my point rather was there had been none until it had been promote^ by a number of persons with motives. . . . f, 17754. You do not dispute there is the feeling nowr but you think it has been promoted and has sprung up ? —Yes, that is so. Even at the present time I believe it is exceedingly limited in quantity. All that talk about rioting and bloodshed, I feel quite sure, is unjus- tified by opinion in East London. 17755. (Major E.vans-Gordon.) Do . you know Mr„. Lewis Lyons ?—J know him by repute, .that is al'L - 17756. He gave us an account only the other day of what the feeling was. I asked him, " You say you are afraid of a labour riot in the East End. What do you mean when you refer! to that ? " " The tension' is so tight now in consequence of the rent question—m ore so than the economical labour collisions. I aim ;afraid ifMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 651 this continues—this increasing of rent—there will be a rising. J might say we (and when I say we' I mean the Jewish trades unionists acting in concert with the English trades lirionists) have prevented a great deal of mischief," ;,and so on. Then he says, " I am afraid there would hav^e been a great deal of disturbance in the $ast End." You do not agree with that?—I am not disposed to.-agree, with that. 17757. He is.,a man who lives down there?—So do I, .and. I have ilived there for some 20 years now. 17758. And so has he. Then there is one point I want to ask you about. You say the breweries have knocked down houses, and have not replaced them. Have not Messrs. Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton built a large ! ranges of houses ?—I was not referring to Messrs. Tru- man/; Hanbury, and Buxton. I was referring to Messrs. Mann and Crossman. 17759. You spoke about breweries, generally, but, in justice to Messrs. Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton, it is only right to say they do build houses I gladly make that correction. 17760. Then, as to the aliens dealing largely among themselves, you say at first they do deal largely among themselves. Do you think they give up the habit of dealing among themselves ?—Distinctly. 17761. As they, go on ?—As they go on. 17762. Why should they give it up. Why should I give up dealing with, you, if 1 had been in the habit of dealing with you?-—The reason which impels them to deal with the aliens is that they can make their pur- chases in small quantities, but to buy in small quanti- ties is to buy at a dear rate. .As soon as the aliens get on and earn a larger rate of pay, they buy in larger quantities, and get the things at 'a cheaper rate, and they would not do so at the small shops. 17763. Then you say, "The Yiddisher small shop- keeper is best able to accommodate himself to the re- quirements of the immigrants, and so he survives in the struggle for existence " ?—Pro tern. 17764. Does not that imply that the native drops out if the Yiddisher survives?-—I have admitted that in the case of the small retail trader; the ordinary small retail trader has suffered loss in consequence of the alien immigrant. 17765. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You are a member of the Stepney Borough Council ?—I am. 17766. Were you a member of the Yes try ?—No, I was not. 17767. Do you anticipate that the Stepney Borough Council will be able to cope with this question of over- crowding more effectually than hitherto?—I quite be- lieve we shall be able to do a great deal more than we luave hitherto done. 17768. Do you want improved machinery at all ?—We want rather more men. 17769. More inspectors?—More inspectors. 17770. Do you agree with what another witness said that, you are, as compared with other parts of London, rather short ?—Yes, we are rather short. The figures Were given to. you this morning. 17771. You agree with that?—Yes. 17772. (Mr. Vallance.) Do I understand you to as- sert that while alien immigration has been a contribu- tory cause of the overcrowding, it has not been the cause ?—-That is m$r view. 177.73. With regard to the rents, it has been stated in evidence over and over again that the aliens are the direct cause of the increase of rents, that it is the aliens who in the first place take these tenements, and •show a willingness to pay the increased rents. Would you accept that?—I think I cannot deny the fact that the^ aliens are prepared to pay higher rents than the ordinary indigenous population. 17774. Would that preparedness to pay a high rent arise from the fact that the sanitary 'authority have winked to a certain extent at overcrowding in the past ? —I do ^ not like to say that the sanitary authorities have winked at the overcrowding. They certainly have not taken such steps as would have obviated it. 17775. That would be a cause ?—Certainly. 17776. Therefore, alien immigration is more or less a o^use of the .increase of rents that has taken place?— T^e Remissness of the local authorities was a contri- butory cause. 6144. 17777. You are one of the honorary secretaries of th ? jf , h. H. Jews' Free Shelter?—I am. k , Gordon. 17778. You have had a good deal of experience with ^ m tr 1903 regard to the reception ol these immigrants?—I.have " * seen tliem immediately on their arrival. ;■ ....... 17779. I think Mr. Landau said in his evidence that some 11 per cent, of the aliens landing here passed through the hands of the shelter—'the others passed through the returns of the shelter, but they were not actually accommodated. Only 11 per cent, were accom- modated?—Yes. 17780. Have you any experience of what was done with the other 89 per cent. ? Have they been followed by you or by any of your agents ?—What .occurs on the landing of an immigrant ship is this. People either come with addresses to their friends, or come as trans- migrants going to other parts of the world. The people who come, having addresses, may be either Jews or non-Jews. A large number of the people who come here with addresses are waiters and musicians, and they are generally met by other people, and taken cff directly from the ship. The remaining portion are all taken to the shelter, Jews and non-Jews, and tliey are there classified as transmigrants or as people Who give their nominal destination as here. They are taken by one . of our officials to the address which they have shown him and are left there. (Ghairmcm.) But people without addresses are the people we want to know about. 17781. (Mr. Vallance.) The figures to which. I -am referring are exclusive of the transmigrants?—A very large majority of the people who come here have ad- dresses; they come to friends and relatives. 17782. {Chairman.) They come to some destination? —Distinctly. 17783. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They have an address in London ?—They have an address in London, or, if they have an address elsewhere, we send them to their desti- nation. 17784. (Mr. Vallance.) But, dealing with the figures, exclusive of transmigrants, there is 89 per cent, to be dealt with, that is, after deducting those who are dealt with in the shelter, and who go to friends ?—Yes. 17785. What I want to get at is whether there is an organisation which secures, more or less, that these people are placed in homes with friends or relatives, and are provided for, and are not dumped down at these new buildings that we have heard of ?—As I said, we take these people to the addresses they give. If, as sometimes does occur, the address does not turn out a reliable one, or the addressee says, " It is true you are my cousin or my relative, still I will have nothing to do with you," we take him back to the shelter, and then see what is best to be done for him ; we either repatriate him or send him on further. We have no means of stating what occurs with the immigrants who have actually gone to the address which they have brought us. 17786. There may be a very considerable number who leave your shelter or your register, and go homeless and objectless to different parts of the district already overcrowded ?—I do not think so. They go to addresses which have already been given them. 17787. But the people without addresses who have no destination, what becomes of them ?—They are kept in our shelter till we decide what to do with them. 17788. How do you decide ? Supposing they hear of somebody they know in Stepney, what is to prevent them going to Stepney ?—They would not hear of Jt in the shelter. They come to the shelter with an address. If they have no address, we keep them in the shelter. The scheme of operations is then transferred to the Board of Guardians or some other Jewish /society. 17789. What selection of the habitation then takes place. How does the man have the habitation found for him ?—There is no conscious method that I know of selecting. 17790. (Lord Bothschild.) Supposing you brought 100 Jews to the shelter off the ship, the first thing you would do would be to ask the 100 men if they were con- signed to friends—I use the word " consigned." If they were consigned to friends, you would then send an officer with the 89 per cent, and take them to their friends ?—Yes. 17791. If the friends would not receive them, you would bring them back to the shelter ?—Yes . 4 N 2 I652 ROYAL COMMISSION'^- AL1-EN~ IMMIGRATION : 1779&? ^id&nee" Mr; Lahdlafti went lb '^hdw* Gord&ii. " that 011 an average 11 per cerit:: camfctoctMsigiiBd to rtTTfi*- -- friend®, 89 -pea^ cent* were consigned to- friends. 26 Ma&*1908. What-'l^rf 'thither memhelrsfof the Clom^ ~~ mission want to k®f)W!4&>hoWf mi^yf of* 1 ^ l7795i The alieii's, as iihey come IfArfe, pimply settle in East lipndon? ',,x ' / ' ' i|#$6. [Sir Kenelm Digby.) Yoiir find them.work, and they,go ;to their > work, and you- he^ir no more,•abput, them-?-^No; ... ^ -......., . • • fhard Rothschild.) ^liiey simply; take them to their ' friends; , .J ■■ ^ 17797. (Sir ,Kenelm Digby.) But we are putting the case of aniahVhohasno frieni^'and nq aiddress/'and who simply domes to the shelter, where you keep him •for about eight'days?—Yes. > ■ i'7798. '"■(MrT Vatlunce!) '' ^roiji your. experience, have you -any suggestion to makeas t6 any improvement ft* machinery' by legislation or otherwise I'r think we mftght do ■& :gr&tt dealt 'in East London by Voluntary means On*' the < ^part of the Jewish community. W'e might help to "solve the overcrowding problem, very 1 arg^ly,, :for instance, if wq, provided other facilities wheire the people who are at present overcrowded could be incl.ucecij. to go away. It may appear that I am cen- suring the community. 17799. {Chairman.) You are quite right to deal with, the people who are already in the locality, but Mr. Valiancy is asking you about when the people come and before they settle down ; are there any means of get- ting them' to the right place instead of to the wrong one ? —There &ro none at present, but the Poor Jews' Tem- porary Shelter might be made to undertake that woi*kv 17800. ,(Mr. Vallarwe.) If the organisation of the Jewish shelter, whether it was entirely a voluntary in- stitution or not, performed that work, according to y your idea, what would be the result of. - it $??-For one thing, the people, as they come over here,, would not b v encouraged to settle in overcrowded districts, but would be drafted and decentralised in other parts of the country. . •■ , : 17801. What would you consider a perfect- arrange- ments Take 10 families landing at the docks and to yoiir shelter. What, fr^^your ^perience^ woiiid you say would he a perfect, iai^d ejffe^tive aa*rang^ msht'foi^ dealing -with* therirand'; ^uring^'them'4iE#&ri$^! ovetf(#dwdiiig a locality shouMr firsts ..Wepfe theih uinder my own observation arid' control within^ a spebial training home, where they could, be taught something of the manners of life in which they Were hereafter to live. Then I would decentralise them, and send .some i of them u> Devonshire and other pilaGes, and. some to Cornwall, and some. to Norfolk, and ^end ithem to al}; parts of the.country.a That would be a question of trade—whether the particular trade with which ftbey came could be utilised m the particular distracts^ haye^ named.. ^ .. ......1,.. .........1, ,............. 17802. (.Chairman.) Supposing you have- a,trade likei theirs in Stepney, would it not be possible, to-find m~ eomanodation for them in the neighbourhood' close to f their works, such as Hackney and Haggerston, -and all round the^orth of London; could you not let them carry-on tfeir work ih that direction Jr^fl should be very glad to see the estabiisliment of factories w^ith workshop accommodation provided round them. There is no reason why^that should not be Carried on outside the Metropolis. .........."' r• ' ' 17803. (Mr. Valia nee.) These people, received in jour shelter, are not exclusively Jews?—No,, by means. We take whoever comes. 17804. What proportion would there be of non-Jews $ —It is rather difficult to say. We had 8,000, non-Jew& on our register last year. ' , ' 17806. .(Lord: Bothsckttd;) Would you say these figures we£e -correct (handing document to the witness), ?^-Yes, I know fch'b'Se 'affe correct. By this it appears that 26,000' passed through thei shelter last .year, of whom 8,000 were non-Jews. These figures are approximately correct. 17806. (Chairmdn.) Were the others Germans, arid »io on «Yes, my Lord. r ' 5 17807. (Mr. Vallance.) No doubt the shelter has been doing a splendid work. With regard to 'any more effec- tive arrangement in the future, would you regard the present voluntary arrangement sufficient for dealing with the aliens arriving in the Port of London ?—I should regard them as sufficient. 17808. (■Sir Kenelm Digby.) Can you suggest any legislative measure on the part of the State which would assist the dissemination, or do you think it is better to leave it to the operations of voluntary agency t —I should prefer voluntary agency, wherever we could avoid calling in the St^te to interfere.' (.Chairman.) I am sure all the, members of the Com- mission appreciate the great toubje ypu havfr; t^ken in. preparing these diagrams/ which have been of very great assistance to us. Mr. Joseph Prag, called; and Examinea. Mr. J. I raq* 17809* t(Jjord Rothschild.) Are you a Councillor of the Borough, M St. Pancras and member of the late Vestry of St. JPancras ?—Yes; - ...... 17810; Were you a member of the St. Pancras Health and Insanitary Areas Committee ?—Yes. 17811. Yoti are a member of a gvmt many Jewish communal institutions, and I understand that you wish to give evidence here both about the Borough oi St. Pancra$, and w:ith-regard, to your:experience as a mer- chant inrthe City//-r-Yes. .. For. 23 years I have been a merchant in the. City, mixing i among 'Jewish manufac- turers and meeting .them; continually. ; ^ .'i ; 178i2^l; You say thetre is not a visry ]arge alien popu- lation in St; Pancras?-^Np. 17813. Only 3^ per cent. ?—Yes. . 17)814. Tjifese ;l6reighers V tare Grermans, French,' Italians, Swiss/ Austrians, Russians, and Poles, bat moistly Germans ?—^Mostly Germans and French. - , 17815. How many Jewisli. aLens, are there ?—There are only-about 500 or 600.; ( - % > 17816.;^-per-cent, of?the whole population Yes.■' 17817. Most of the: Germans in your borough are to be4 found in' one district/ are: they not ?-^Yes, - in. the • Fitoof Clevelted '-Street. 17818. They belong to a low class ?—>Yes, they belong to ^verpl^w 'cl^indfeed,- • 17819. Your colleague, Mr. Walters, gave evidence here?—Yes."" ••-''• :i " ..... ""4> 17820. He said that mos't of these people werie 0;f a vicious character, and kept houses of ill-fame. This disorderly element, you say, is composed mostly of. French and German men and women, not Jews ?—r-They are not, Jews. 17821. You think that no Alien Immigration Restric- tion Act would keep these people out ?—No, because they are generally very well dressed and have mean®. 17822. Mr. Walters called them the u Gentile". aliens. In Soho you say there are a great maiiy Jewish artisans^—Yes. I may say that the few Jews th^re are in St. ^Pancras never attract very much 'attention, because they are spread overt; the whole of the district.. There are only about 500 or 600 of them, and they are of the s'^me kind as the Jews: in Soho, Working meri, cabinetmakers, and tailors, and shoemakers. . 17823. You wish.to testify that an Alien Immigration Act would hot keep put the vicious, element in St. Pan- cras,"but would keep out the bona fide working maiy who, you say,' arrives here with a few shillings,, and whose looks oh arrival are against him. Is that so?— Yes. L Are these workpeople :in?S^l: Pan- cras«^rinoip®lily F4*eril3^ or French and Germ ans.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.' 11825*wl^or^M^hscMit^) IVfe-Walt^s ^read the jxtoQt&i- w-MT.' 3k«p-wifcr©gas®d:^.»- to-ffche-Jew-s in Soho.r The'Rev. Mr. Lax peo.pj€f;'., Cain you ex- . plaitriwhiathe me»aa«>by th^?^Tliey- aik© not getr seri^sus 'against them, either as to their moral ^character,. or as to their value to the country. It means that they are not amenable to theministrationsof amihister ofa re- ligion! ! which is not their own. / r .:' •:• 17828; (Chairman:) Who is Mr. Walters ?-~-He' was speaking as to the aliens in $t,; PancrasJ I (Qhairman.) We cannot enter into a question of minute 'differences between. these two gentlemen. .. {Lord Rothschild.) Mr. Prag,, t(Seq: 17896;}% •* 17833. We cannot go into details antl the facts of Mr. J; those areas. > Will you com& at once to your general - ...a comparison^ that St;; Pa&cras without alien immlgr&tioaa^Ma#*; lffiffi is more than Btepney with P—?Take overcrowding. There is one of the- houses in Branstome-plajce, which is - another area -inquired into before : an Home Office Co^i ?f "f mission. 17834.;'We will not go into the details of St. Pan- cras step by step. If you can compare area for aarea pray do it, because it is■ important, but we oannot go- intf th^ details of the St. Pancras inquiries. Assume. _ St. Pancras is very, very bad with regard to overcrowd- ingj -npw gp' on and show that it is worse than Stepney ? *—W^d 3?ou naind looking at,.thatu report. (Producing ,, docuqienj;.) , , .. , li?835v We^ will assume that. it . is very bad, but4w% m , have not to inquire into. St. Pancras; we have to in- ; quire into alien immigration ?—What I. desired to: show was that the condition of overcrowding was a; conditiosn that was common to the whole of London. . . v 17836. We will. agree with that, and you need not, trouble yourself y>out ^but it is important to show us that, St. ^anca^as: without alien immigration is wortie overcrowded than Stepney with;:,, That is important ^ , 17837. (Mr. Vallance.) Are. npt all your figures sum- marised and brought into a focus oij page 6 of your , statement ?"-Yes, I think so, 17338. That is wiiat Lord .James asks you P— shows it is ^practically the same jas far astha number ^ of tenei^xents goes» :. Out of 61,113 tenements in Step-. ney tKere are 49,182 of less than five rooms, and in St. Pancras out of 57,045 tenements there are 45,023 of four rooms and under, so that it is almost the same. Then we are more favourably situated than Stepney. We have one portion^—nearly half the borough—where the proportion of inhabitants is only 60 to the acre. 98,000 people live in Kentish. Town and Highgate Divi- sion, where there are only 61 to the acre. Then there is another division which has 70 acres of Regent's Park in it, with a population of 51,994, with 90 persons to the acre.: 17839. (Chairman.) Where do you get -our highest number to the acre?—In Somers Tow>n, with 178 and 30,000 inhabitants; then Tottenham-court-road, with 25,000 inhabitants and 186 to the acre; then Gray s Inn- lane, with about 31,000, with 191 to the acre. 17840. (Major Evans Gordon.) You get nothing like- so high as appears in Spitalfield® ?— 17841. (Chairman.) What is your highest in Spital- fields ? (Major Emm-Gordon.) 319'58 in Spitalfields, withv ' a population of 27,969. 17842. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is not the number of par- sons to the acre rather a deceptive sort of test? It... depends on the height of the house and the quantity of open space?—Yes. 17843. (Chairman.) I thought vou were going to prove ; that St. Pancras was more overcrowded than Stepney 1 ~ We have areas that are very seriously overcrowded^, in which the condition of things is very, very bad. 17844. You have not got any as high as 200 to the - . acre?—No, we have not got up quite as high as that. (Major Evam-Gordon.) I do not think overcrowding; in one part of London mitigates the overcrowding arising from alien immigration in another.' It dees n® excuso it. (Chairman.) If you have any very general overcrowd- ing; to the same extent as you have got it in Stepney it Would be used by what I call your opponents in argument that you do not get your overcrowding in Stepney from alien immigration. - (Major Evans-Gordon.) But the fact of a town like London being overcrowded is a strong argument, looked at in the other way, for not increasing it by alien im- migration from abroad. 17845. (Chairman.) To go all over London and com- pare each part, of it with Stepney is far away from our inquiry?—You have had two witnesses, my Lord, from St. Pancras. 17846. We did, becaias^i there^^werewalien<-immte!!vnM^ there; ^Thier'e^ares yvery^f ew^ V7MZn(Maj()r - E'vam+Gordbn*) Wa went - mo-r-e into - the;^ehaisai©ter^ofxtM ^orfejgn^fopulation \tkme&^654 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. kJ. Prag. is not a Jewish population. Then I want to< show that a worse state of things exists in Glasgow, as 26 Mar. 1903. from the report of the recent Housing Commission. 17848. {Chairman.) If yiou will state very shortly that there is overcrowding in Glasgow, that we already know ?—There is overcrowding, and they live in fearful insanitary conditions. 17849. (Mr. Vallance.) What I gather from you is, that in St. Pancras and Glasgow, and other places, there are conditions of overcrowding existing without alien immigration '(—Yes, without the aliens having contributed to- it. 17850. (Chairman.) We know generally that there is a great problem of overcrowding throughout England in the rural districts and other places. I think you , may/ take that for granted?—Then* I would like to ;speak of my knowledge of the Jew himself. I know :;theyalien Jew thoroughly. Eor 25 years I have worked . among them, and I know his failings, and I know iris qualities. I also know him in provincial towns . like, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, and Glasgow, and . I know him also in the East End of London. 17851. Have you worked amongst them for the pur- poses of charity ?—Yes, because I like them. 17852. We know that many of your race have been ■moSfc kind to their own people?—The Jew is not like other foreigners who come to this country. The Ger- man, s or the French immigrant remains German or French, and his children, tuo , at any rate, during the. first; and second generations. They form colonies, just as Jevv.s do but the Jewish colonies are bound to- gether only by the ties of religion. No allegiance is felt;to any earthly power other than fch& Government of this country. While the German joins his Ger- man club and keeps up his German nationality, and while the Frenchman does his best to make a small France in London, the Jew joins his brethren only ^on account of the religions tie. So, my Lord, the aloof- ness of the Jew is not because he is away fromi his country, but because he keeps together with his co- religionists on account of the bond that is between them of religion. He is only too eager to be an Eng- lishman, and he enters heart and soul into the in- terests -of his adopted country. England's policy in past times was to absorb the best elements from . abroad and to utilise them in the 'advancement of the country. Speaking as a commercial man, I say that by : that policy she became great and wealthy. By that policy she became the great commercial country, the commission agent and carrying agent of the whole world. The alien has been a great factor in this ex- pansion of England's power. His capacity to adapt himself to the necessities of the moment has been of the greatest service to this country. The immigrant from Russia or Poland may have been in any kind of business over there, 'but when once here his keen eye weigh® up the chances of a livelihood on the basis of the laws of supply and demand. Then he may go into a factory as a learner or greener at low wages, but this does not last any longer than he can help. His adapt- ability is SO' pronounced that he is able in a very short time to command good wages, and he never neglects to do so. I can understand, my Lord, the trades unions . objecting to him, because one ruling passion never quite him, and that is his desire to rise from his lowly position , and to be a master himself. This is one of the reasons why he does not take kindly to trades unionism. He does not want to label himself for all time as a work- man, and to environ himself with rules and regulations that will prevent his getting on. He wants to have the • chance to better himself, and he will not have his future advancement hindered by conditions that in- terfere with his power to rise. At the present time we have thousands of respected Jewish manufacturers who were themselves alien immigrants, and began work here as " (greeners." The objection of the Jew to join the unions, except for the advancement of his earnings, has been testified to by the union officials, who have given evidence, and explains in some measure their objection to^ him. The industries that the Jewish alien embarks in are, as a rule, those in which he does not compete with the native workman. If he makys any competition at all it is with the industry of his co-religionist who has preceded him by a few years. The trades into which he enters mostly, and which in certain branches have been created by Jews, are the mantle, boot and shoe, clothing, fur, cap-making, cabinet-making, cigar and cigarette, trimming, and waterproof clothing trades, and other trades that were entirely new in this country. .For instance, there is the blouse-making trad», which was essentially a French business. The most beautiful silk blouses' that used to be made in France, and were very much esteemed, are now made here in London. There are two or three large. factories in the City, Jewish fac- tories, employing mostly Christian girls, and they make the finest productions with the most beautiful handwork upon them. I maintain that in these trades) the Jew's great industry and his capacity has enabled England to be the suppliers of the whole world. Trades hitherto carried on abroad have been introduced into this country, and English merchants, shippers, bankers, and steamship owners have benefited enormously thereby. Everything dovetails with the other. -It is all wheel within wheel. The cap-maker supplies his caps not only to the wholesale houses and the shopkeepers who supply the home demand, but to the great shipping houses, anil Wood Street and St. Paul's Churchyard warehousemen, and his manufactures go forth from England all over the world. You can see him with great sackfuls of caps any day in the week at Eylands', Foster Porter's, or Cook, Sons, and Co.'s warehouses. In the shoe trade he has completely revolutionised the trade in ladies' and children's boots, shoes and slippers. He does not compete with the class of work made by the English workmen at Northampton, Leicester, and Kettering, but it must be remembered his work dovetails with theirs, and thus enables all classes of boots used here or ex- ported from here, to be made in this country. A good deal of the work he does used to be done abroad, and would be so done even now if the Jewish workman had not made it his own. Where we' used to import most of our ladies;' shoes from abroad, we are now making the most dainty work, as well as cheap goods, here in Jewish workshops, and exporting it all over the world. There are hundreds of Jewish boot and shoe manufacturers in the East End of London, most of them alien immigrants, and as a. consequence England's export trade in boots and shoes to all parts of the world is very great in- deed. With regard to the clothing trade, the export trade runs into millions, and a good deal of this and the home trade, too, would be ruined if alien labour were kept out of it. I had an interview last Sunday with one <"f the leading bespoke tailors of the highest class in the City, a man who only makes the class of work that is sold in the best shops of the West End. I can give you the name'—Felix Lowy &nd Co., of Gracechuroli Street ■ and he told me that 75 per cent, of the trade done in the City as well as in the West End was done by Jewish workpeople. 17853. Alien Jews?—Alien Jews, and they cannot get sufScient workmen. He said an English workman can make a coat throughout, he can make it from the cloth right down to the finishing and everything, but he can- not turn out more than about two coats and a-half in a week, while by the sub-division of labour that the Jewish workpeople have introduced, a master man can take out 50 garments and finish them all during a week, and fhat enables all these big ishops to make a big turnover. 17854. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Is that all hand work?— No, all machine, but he tells me that in such things as overcoats, for instance, most hand-work has long ago been abandoned. 17855. (Chairman.) Then the result is that the 75 per cent, of the workers employed are now aliens ?—Alien Jews, but the trade has increased enormously. 17856. Has it increased in that proportion ?—Yes. 17857. Then it is four times as great, because three- fourths are aliens and one-fourth English ?—Yes, that is about it. Then with regard to the fur and mantle trades, it is the deft fingers of the Jewish girls that have won us these trades for this country. The mantle and trimming trades were exclusively French and Ger- man , it is our people who have succeeded in detaching the main portion of the trade in these articles from foreign makers', and these goods are now made here. 17858. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Do you say that in the fur and mantle trades the labour is chiefly Jewish girls? — 168, 17859. (Chairman.) All the fur trade, not only the cheap fur trade ?—Yes. Side by side with these indus- tries there is always a very large opportunity made for the introduction of native labour. Round about Cripple- gate, where there is a great number of furriers a great many of the girls employed there are Christian girls, but the industries were founded and introduced' by foreigners. 17860. -(Sir Kenelm Bigby.) You say in these trades tnere has been an enormous expansion, and the native has benefited by that as well as the Jew?—Enormously.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 655 You see crowds of girls going into these factories every morning round my warehouse, and it is like going into a theatre and coming out in the evening,. These indus- tries do not mean merely taking a certain trade from foreign manufacturers and doing it by people who> live here, but it means also* that the material is English, and that English warehousemen, merchants, and shipowners handle the goods. A Berlin mantle is a mantle made of German cloth, and all material used would he Ger- man, s:nd the profit on it would be German. In the cabinet-making trades, I have it on the authority of Mr. Horace Regnart, senior governor of Maples, Ltd., that the influence of the work of the alien immigrant in this branch of trade has only been for good. Poor people are now able to have good serviceable furniture at a very reasonable price. The largest furniture manu- facturer in the world is a Jew who* started years ago in a very small Way in the East End of London. He has now 20 acres of land at Tottenham, on 13 of which he has erected the most up-to-date factory in the trade. 17861. (Lord Rothschild.) You say he is the largest furniture-maker in the world?'—He claims to be the largest maker in the trade. 17862. (Chairman.) What is his name ?—Lebus. He employs 3,000 hands, most of whom are Christians. He had a very little place in the East End of London within recent years, and lie has developed it himself. 17863. Does he manufacture for the home trade ?— if or the home tnade iand abroad. I was told by Mr. Regnart that if they sent to him for 100 bedroom suites of a particular pattern they could have them to-morrow, so.. complete does he keep his stock up. It is all turned out by the latest machinery, the highest claiss of machinery that can be obtained in the worid. In Man- chester and Salford, great firms like Mandleberg and Co., and Frankenberg's, have waterproof factories, em- ploying hundreds of hands, and there are very many of smaller manufacturers in London and all over the Kingdom. Then, my Lord, I would like to draw your attention to a new phase of this matter. In the cigar- ette trade, it is to the Jewish immigrants that we owe a great deal of the strength, that enabled us to repel the attack made upon us recently by the great American Trust. Had the attempt of the American Trust to capture the cigarette trade been successful, it would have brought disaster to thousands of manufacturers and their workers. The cigarette trade in this country was almost entirely made by Jews. I can remember the time, only 16 or 17 years ago, when most of the cigarettes sold here were American. Duke's Cameo, Richmond Gems, Kinney's Straight Cut, Sweet Caporal, and other Yankee brands were the principal cigarettes that were' consumed here. At this time the great; firm of Players, of Nottingham, were ,shopkeepers • in the market place there. ' .....- T 17864. The result of this is that a great many aliens are employed in the cigarette trade?—An enormous number. They have been the creators and founders of it 'all. 17865. I think you might summarise this part of your evidence ?—It was a Jew with alien immigration labour who opened the cigarette factory of Messrs. Player, of Nottingham, and developed it. Messrs. Player had a little shop in the market place in Nottingham. Then, at F. J. Elliott's or R. Macqueen and Co.'s, and the great fire at Olney Amsden's, in Falcon Square. 17869. (Mr. Vallance.) Do you mean that these alien J©ws have not been the cause of an increase in the fire rates ?—No. 17870. (Chairman.) Never mind about Cripplegate. but all about the district of the East End?—I am speaking of the City. 17871. (Lord Rothschild.) Those are the fires in what they call the congested district. I think Mr. Wil- liams' evidence did not refer to the fires dn the con- gested district at all. He referred to the fires in the Jewish district of Stepney?—No, he was speaking of Biarbioan, that is Cripplegate, where we are. 17872. (Chairman.) Mr. Vallance's question was more general. Has there not been a general dislike on the part of insurance offices to grant policies sought to be taken out by Polish Jews?1—Yes. 17873. Why?—I believe a great deal owing to the prejudice caused by the American comic papers. (Lord Rothschild.) It is quite different with regard to the congested district. You are saying the fires in the congested district, where: the rates have gone up, are entirely different from the fires on Jewish pre- mises. The insurance companies have raised the rates first of all on account of the very narrow streets, and, secondly, on account of the very large amount of goods which were insured in a small area, and if a fire breaks out there is such a great destruction of property. The insurance companieis object, as a rule, to granting policies to small people because of the numbers of small articles which are destroyed far easier ; for in- stance, such things as pairs of stockings, and so on. 17874. (Chairman.) I recollect conducting a case for an insurance company when I was at the Bar, and they said to me most positively they never took an insurance from a Polish Jew, because they were afraid of the constant repetition of these fires. They would. not take policies from them ?—I believe that that pre- judice does exist, but there is no foundation for it. Here in the whole of Cripplegate, in the 18 years that I have been there, all the fires that have occurred there of any importance, and which fires caused the rates to. go continually up, all occurred on Christian premises. 17875. (Major ISvans-Gordon.) That is a very different. class of risk. We are talking of small commercial property?—It is the fires in the big commercial pro- perty that cause the rates to be continually raised. (Mr. Vallance.) It,has been stated in evidence that the insurance offices show an indisposition to issue policies to alien Jews. (Lord Rothschild.) They do not consider the Cripple- gate district a Jewish district at all. 17876. (Mr. Vallance.) You do not combat that, but you say it is prejudice on the part of the insurance offices?—We have never found any difficulty with in- surances in our calse, and I have not heard of any. But I do believe there is that prejudice existing.. Mr. Williams expressly said it was in Cripplegate'. 17877. {Chairman.) I think we quite follow what you say on that point ?—Then I would, like to say it is not- true that the alien immigrant lowers the standard- of life in the East End. I know the way the poor, both Christian and Jew, live, and I say without prejudice that the standard of life of the alien immigrant is much higher than that of his Gentile neighbour in the same station of li£e. It may be true that insanitary condi- tions exist where- a man is so poor that he is compelled to live with/ hiis family in one or two rooms. It is not possible to^be clean where the people are overcrowded. Our medical officer of health, Dr. Sykes, has stated' that the better instincts of any man would soon'be, blunted if he were forced to herd together with others; in one room. But with the alien Jew this overcrowding is only caused by stern necessity. He does not pig with his family from a desire to do so, or by reason V his own improvidence. He is always looking forward to and striving for the opportunity to improve his con- dition, and to emerge from his surroundings.. When once by his industry and sobriety he has obtained the means to get away from his demoralising position^ and has got his own little house or flat, there is no'one 'more houseproud or more observant of the decencies of life. At first, when the man is earning small wages,656 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION P$h(fr fyMeir.Jewish plArfekilts;'6ftten'tS.tai'vG! themselves to enable r-jxrv y,: tfeefcrc^ldren'^o^)'-jafbpVrJy td school.'"and thus have ^lgu& •• a - 4 'than they 'had: You never hear ~ ' df'.a Jewish'mother taking herchild's- 'boots off its feet Jito ^paHvn them' foac'^drink. f On ;the. contrary, Jewish parents :.the^«a^t3i^ as^ some xof the reptile Press of this country have called thenu>i Even Mr. that in B^asi^a the >rate of child mortalityincreases as one gets further, away from the pale. It r"is the same here. Jr* the ' care of, their children the Jewish mothers are a pattern to their 1 G%ntile' neighbours in'the Ea$fc End. Go and visit the ^hoolir Eaft'JS-iid* and see the Jewish children. f;:^hey st^ndv!oU!fc''iA marked .contrast to other children ,' for' tlleiir brightness 'and healthy, appearance. That is ^ oMy'd<^rto ^e';Jewish mothers/ , People who thus look asfter their children cannot lower the standard of life tuoii anybody, v iphe ;Jewish; alien! immigrant parent even direst poverty wilt also stintv himself so as to pay >d for eitra evening-tuition for his children after they have been to the free school an the rday. He is repaid for ;tr hi^i s^Jl^sac^fioe by nthe.: great. love and veneration in which. Jewish parents a^.held by, their children. Then!? , Mr. ^mte lias saad that, the British working man lives oil steaks and beer. I Up not thiiik I need go into that, but, as a councillor of St.Pancras, and having visited * :thj©ir--h.iQimes, I will only say I am afraid they do not. ' "then 11 would "say the children of the alien immigrant 1 ' are/'as a rule, of fine pliysique, and are most devoted r Englisih men and women, as shown in their record in v; . the recent war and in every walk of life in which fhey ^ngage. Have they lowered the standard of life in " the East End ? Anyone who remembers what the East •"Bhd 'was arid what it is now can answer that question. There is a letter whiclr appeared in one of the Jewish papers in Which attention was drawn .to the great dis- placement of labour which has taken place in the East mEricb xTh^Iett^'says I " It is all very well to lament days whefri the;®ast End was occupied by a thriving t0 English population;, but the fact must riot be lost sight k -of,-that ;in those days aniiple Employ merit' for a large b\'.'working class -population was at hand in the establish- meats of srich firms as Messrs; Green/Money Wigram, ? : Obarles-Ma^ers,- -at^Blaekwall"? Messrs. Sanrada and i 1 Sc&tfcv Itusseli/at-Millwall^ ;and and . •^Ho^ile^iat^tepnfeyf Aw non-existent; To go back still ■u ;fuHh£r, say thirty Ho thirty-five years ago, the " Pool " . u^d ;to be cohtiinuously occupied by a large fleet of ;.r oo^liersy-Ipie coalsfroimjwhicfe .\yer^^ufliloaded by the C0$h r whippers <|£ Ratcliff, W^pping, and Stepney. These coals are.jnqw railway borne, and unloaded at London railway,Rations, largely, at the Great Northern and Midland depots at :St. Pancras, King's Qross, and ' 'Kkntofr ^TO>f/"^So. .thai^.gr.es.t- deal of thedisplace- J 'merit in the East End of London of the English popu- lation is owing to the fact that the industries which arpreviously v.flouris'hed there have been removed. , 17878. JjV"e hay^ had all this before us ?—'The alien immigrant,Has brought prosperity to the East End, and ^desjij^ti.oii tjh^re the..recent hard times wa&,pon- ,.t' ::4i^/,tp^'parts..^ii^. a^ Sliadwell Poplar, where the ; jewstradesmen aiid factories flourish ther& now, ancV high rents are obtainable by landlords where formerly there were hundreds of tenantless - houses and shops.One of the witnesses before the v^-^Ooinimissioii told .a/harrowing tale- about there Raving been one butcher in Redman's Ro\y some "years ago, and now; there were no less than seven. 'l-eally' do riot care about tliat?-^Et would : have 'b^&n jja very; serious thing if he could have said i^e^nj^tchers "ivere there'before and there is only ■ otie. - - l( X788A These are ' .. . , 'V, . ;; too small matters to go into ?— The Jew alien. immigrant is often .culture. His . nursery was not the early days were not spent in the study from morning till nigiht, and ,^47 oSf the poor alien immigrants could give points t^'Bngljshjaen iii much higher conditions of life on , matters ,of .general education. Then on the question ' of the .struggle (.lor trade, I would like toi (Iraw atten- tion to ,tlj$. report of Mr. Bateman, ,cf the Commercial Departn>entof the Board of Trade, published in the " Westmiaister Gazette," He says : " If peace is main- tained,, both" .Germany. and the Ignited States, are cer- tain to ijicr^ase their .^ate- of. .upward moveiment. Thei r . competition1 with us iri neutral markets, and .even in our home:, markets will probably, unless we ourselves are active, become iricreasirigly- serious. ' Every ^ear will add to their acquired capital and skill, and -they will have larger and larger additions to their popula- tion to draw upon. It is necessary, therefore, more tlian ever, that the change of conditions should be recog- nised, and we can scarcely expect to maintain our past undoubted pre-eminence, at any rate without strenuous effort and careful and energetic improvement in method." I maintain that the introduction of the . alien into. this country has been most beneficial to the trade of this country, and that it is absolutely necessary •, that we should be continually recuperated by the sharp intellects from abroad if we are to -hold our own in the great fight for commercial supremacy. England is now, happily for -her, a free trade country. By that policy she has ^become the coimmission agent of . the world. Here buyers can come and purchase the manufactures of every country, and our merchants arid warehousemen ; are . enabled to supiply them and to reap the profit thereby. If the restrictionists would like those gqoda to be bought in the country of their production, what would become of these great warehousemen arid ship- own.ers and ban kers, and the tens of. thousands engaged?" ;in handling,-these goods, eac-h deriving profit there- from ? By the admission of people with the great my Lord. , Then I say the Jew is accused - of being ambitious. 17882. Really we cannot go into such points as these ? —Then I say it is not true that English women have been driven to prostitution by the competition of the alien immigrant. Is that a serious matter, my Lord ? 17883. It is serious in one sense. Will you make your general statement; ?—rWhen Tom Hood wrote the " Sqng of the Shirt" it was before the aliens came here to make competition. . There are people i# this country and elsewhere—^of; course, not on, this ;Gomriiission,. but we must take the public opinion—who seem) to think j .that if you. keep people from coming here: there will be so, much more for those who are here now. Up to the .present the evidence; against the alien has been remark- able, We have had; the, most extraordinary arguments used against him. It has even been insinuated that the murderer Chapman was a Jew, and, that has: been sai4 .t<5 prejudice the case against the Jew, and hm had that effect- ,It has been suggested that.; a, irioney test should be imposed upon intending, s/ettlers. here, but what is the good of that ? A ma,n :with £5 or £10, or twenty times that sum, may be more of a pauper than he who comes here without a penny piece. Many a man who arrives here with money arid embarks it in a trade he does not understand, loses it, and then really is a burden on the community. You have heard also that the Jewish quarters have been singularly free from disease. w 17884. Yes, we have heard that ?—Then, to conclude, ' I aril against any restriction in any form, because I believe that Great Britain is strengthened by the advent of the . Miens to this country. I believe that the foreigners enable us to withstand foreign competition from without and to maintain the position of this , country as the great exporter and commifsibn agent of the world. 17885. {Major Mvans-Gordon.) You give the alien ; immigrant, in fact, a very .high character indeed ?-—I do. 17886. You say he is superior in every respect to the native inhabitant?—No, I do not say that. 17887. I deduce that from all you: say. . You say he is more sober, more thrifty, more hardworking, of better physique, and a higher' moral character, and of a far higher culture. You say he is much more cul- tivated ?—In many respects, yes. 17888. I assume, taking all those things together, rhat he is a superior person altogether to the native article ?—He is riot inferior, as has been alleged. : 17889. You say distinctly in this statement that he is very much superior. However, according to that, I juclge you think it is an advantage that the more our po|>ulf(tion is substituted by these pe£>plfi^'lM! better ? ^No ; the, more our population ^ is intermingled with them and influenced by jtheal. ^MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. fi57 17890. You would put. no limit at all to the number of these-people who should oome here?—No. 17891. The more the better?—The more the better for the country, •17892. Without exception?—I am speaking as an Englishman. (Chairman.) With the exception of the criminal ? 17893. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Would yoa except the Mr. J. 1 criminal and diseased people and persons leading nn —— immoral life? I suppose, judging from the charact3r 26 Maif. 19(X you give them, there are none of them who do that?- - I should except known criminals. 17894. Ana not the diseased?—And the diseased; FORTIETH DAY Monday, 30th March 1903. present : The Right Hon. Lord .Tames of Hereford (Chairman)^ The Eight Hou. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm Digby. k.c.b. Major W. E. EVasts Gordon, rt.i William Vallance, Esq. Mr. Hermann Landau, recalled. 17895. (Chairman.) I understand there is a passage in your evidence with regard to which you wish to make some correction ?—Yes, my Lord. At question 16,510 on the 37th Day, I was asked this question : " At all eveiits, you say these 89 per cent., one and all, are con- ducted by your agents to some place of shelter ?" My answer is :■■■'" Yes; the bulk of them go to Kahn and seyer.al other agents who carry on this large "passenger traffic, and they accommodate them in various lodging houses." ; I referred to the bulk of transmigrants' that we 'know. I do not meanf the bulk of the 89 p&r cent. It struck your Lordship, because you say in the next question: aThat: is important. !< You s'ay a large majority do not go to f amilies or persons resident there, but,they, go to these agents?" " It applies to trans- migrants only. Mr. 1L 17896. You wish to confine your answer to tran&mi- Landau, grants?-—Yes. — 17896*. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Mr. Joseph Prag, who 30 MarHKB. gave evidence at our last sitting, has written to me, and asked me to make a correction on his behalf. He says : " I was asked by Lord James to show that the sanitary con- dition of St. Pan'cras was as bad or worse than that of Stepney. In 1898, owing to the Vestry not having car- ried out its duties, a special inspection of the boroughs was made by Dr. Hamer, L.C.C. Medical Officer, and he reported that there was a larger population living im tenements of one and two rooms than in any other London sanitary district. The result of this report, and the pressure brought upon us, was that the staff' of the sanitary inspectors was increased from 10'to 19, and the number of people living in tenements of one or- two rooms has declined from 94,934 to 89,008." Mrs. L. Amelia Levy, called; and Examined. 17897. (Lord Rothschild.) You have been a district visitor, both in the East End of London and in Man- chester ?^-Yes^ ! 17898. You wish to give evidence before the Commis- si^,raiiid; perhaps you would prefer to read your own statementi—r'I commenced district visiting 27 years ago ia tCe East End of London among the Jews. There was a'good deal of work to be done, even in those days, be- cause there were few to do it. 'Visiting was a better position to under- stand every phase of their not uninteresting life than the ordinary person. There was then a large- settle-, memit Of foreign Jews, especially in the, neighbourhood of Back Church Lane, Boyd ' Street, Everard Street, T^airclough Street, Christian' Street, Umfoerston Street, Morgan Street^Grove tSttfeet,;Jane Street; fand all streets as 'lar o^ iLitoe :Turner Street, OomitierciaJ Boad, /in, tl&^TOt^boiirMod^-also/^all the^ courts and alleys l&ad- ing^romPettiooat La^Smto'Cbulsjtioin Street>{Wentworth Street, suchAas Marlhro': Court^ Three Tun Alley") Tripe Y§fd,i;etc.5 f> They were Russian, Pplish• Dutdh, and" G-er- man J'ews^ 'just as you find them now, only by ndw the people L usfed ,to visit have become English, or have ch&nge&L V T cdiild point oiit many of them now ^uite" well as p&fsons in^realfygw gome have 6144. large shops and factories even. My work incre ased from time to time, until it included medical work, ordinary district visiting,. welfare of young girls, sending chil- dren into private convalescent homes then in existence, visiting hospitals, and workhouses, and infirmaries. I. can therefore say that during the course of my work. I saw the problem of the foreigners in the East End at its very worst. When I commenced, district visiting; was in its infancy, 'and there was no system of giving a particular' district to one visitor, so-1 had practically to visit any portion of the whole of the East End where help was needed. Many dirty little courts I used to visit in the vicinity of Petticoat Lane have now disap- peared. « Among, these, was Eastman's. Court, (I think a part of that is still in. existence), Three Ton Alley, Cox- son's. Square,. etc. They were all highly insanitary . they have -mostly been replaced by big blocks of dwell- ings; in other cases they have been thrown into streets to widen the same. At that time, and for many years later, -there were many parts of the East End which were absolutely infested with the criminal classes. I men- tioji^tjio,fojlo^iiftg streets.-Oxford Street, a street run- ning. * from'. New'; ,Boad„ Wh^t^cliapel,, into Stepney ; Flower and Dean Street, and Thrawl Street, both in Cojpme^cial Jfcoad, WWtechapel,, down which it was not safe for anyone torgoainapcompanied by the police,: and : eve^.jthe .police, themselves , dared rnot go, down' singly. . 0€h^r, c^mia^a^'qw^ters were rG-reat Pearl Street and Little Peai;l, Street, Spitajfi.elds. -Oxford .S.treet was in- fested with brothels, also^'jCiMeV^rner' Street, Com- mercial ;Ro&fL,,,J.kno^,,...ip^'^-fact,. that there were, no Jews there." Ml' this criminal, district has now' disap- pearsd|^n& p| dwellings, which pre occupied,,by foreigkerk,'' have taken' 'tfie place of these criminal 4 O Mrs. L. A, Levy.-658 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mrs. L. A. haun'ts. The criminal population in the Kast End was Levy. entirely English. 30 Mar~1903 17889. (Chairman.) Wh.n was that ?—20 .yea.s ago. I _J_ * cannot imagine how anyone who knew the East End as ! did, 15 to 20 years ago, -and who knows it now, can have the conscience to deny that the character of its inhabitants has enormously improved since the foreigners have come in. I worked in the East End for seven years, and then I went to Manchester, where I did similar work. I there worked in direct touch witn Dr. Tatham, the Medical Officer of Health. I found the housing much better in Manchester ; there was more room, and the .sanitary arrangements there were also better. The sanitary authorities have much more authority in Chester than they have in London, e.g., where a man takes a house and does not intend to occupy the /whole of it he has to have the same regis- tered, and the sanitary inspector visits the premises and Pleasures up each room, allowing so many cubic feet ior each person. A registration card is placed on the • walls of each room, saying how many persons may sleep -ithere, and the sanitary officials have the right of enter- ring at any time during the night to see that the re- quirements are fulfilled. Even if there is a single child - too many found in a room, proceedings follow, and a fine is imposed, and the fine is increased on a second con- viction. I mean the occupant of the house would be _/fined, and not the owner of the house. This works most satisfactorily. To ensure themselves of this :r scheme, the local authorities employ women visitors, who are very often -able to report circumstances which - would escape the notice of an ordinary male inspector. I think they are cleverer in perceiving where there is . an attempted concealment of insanitary conditions. I may say here that the Manchester Corporation have within the last two years seen fit to place a Jewess in the position of one of their district visitors, and she has 'to work for and is paid by the Health Office. Not only ^overcrowding, but also other sanitary regulations are equally keenly looked after in Manchester, Jews work hand in glove with the local authorities, and as .an example, I can produce a leaflet in English and 'Yiddish, which was prepared for foreign Jews, and 1 eft at their houses by the district visitor. The district- 'visitor has the power to provide carbolic soap, when* required, at a nominal charge; lime, .and other ingre- . 'dients, with the use of necessary brushes, are supplied ^gratis to the people themselves, so that they may fre- quently cleanse ceilings, cellars, yards, etc. ; and I have toften instructed them how to do the lime washing. Car- bolic powder is also supplied gratis for disinfecting w.c.'s, etc. We get in Manchester the same class of Russian and Polish Jews as 'come to London; they are quite raw foreigners, and when they first arrive have no idea of English, sanitation, but I found they have learnt it very quickly. My duties .as a district visitor £ook me to houses, not only of foreigners, but of the 'English poor, and I often found that when I discovered a. dirty house inhabited by English, and advised that certain sanitary arrangements should be carried out, I was met with th© reply, "What's that got to do with you ?" and the work was left undone; while the foreigners -always seemed to be grateful for advice, and, wherever possible, benefited by it. They seemed to appreciate their ignorance of Ethgl'isih sanitary law, and to wish to "learn it, and so become " like the English." It was one of my duties to report all cases of supposed infectious disease to the Board of Health—<1 have no hesitation saying that I found the health of the foreign Jews at Manchester far superior to that of the natives; they .^avoided many of the infectious diseases which attacked - their English neighbours. I was in Manchester for 10 years, and then I came to-London again, 'and 'again took up visiting and rescue work—mainly the latter. It was my duty to visit the young foreign girls as soon as they came over, and report upon them. I held office under the Jewish Ladies' Association. In iny visits I naturally came upon foreigners at their -very -worst, i.e., when they were absolutely unused to Eng- lish life. I find that the class of foreigners now en- tering is distinctly better than, the class which came in when I was in London formerly. They 'are bet- ter educated, .and often come over with the knowledge of a good trade. It would seem as tho-ugh the lowest class of Russian and Polish Jew had been the first to leave the country when the persecution had begun, •and that now we were tapping the better classes, who cannot stand the persecution. There is still the same difficulty to overcome, namely, a want of know- ledge of sanitation. I can honestly say that these foreigners are not worse in this respect than a certain class of the native population, while the latter had not the excuse which the foreigners had, namely, that their ignorance of the language prevented them learning everything, including sanitary regulations* at once. I find that there is a complete absence among these foreigners of the rough element which you find among the lower class of natives. I mean the loaiei'to, »ucn a,* cui±gr-dge*ud oatsiue public-houses or among passers-by, nor have we women who stand at all tiiiitJa of ciay or nignt uiUuC.i^ at tne oars, leaving the poor little children trembling about outside the doors ; should one of these mites happen to fall and cry out, the mother will come out, give it a shaking and a curse, or, it sne is kma, p~ii it msiae ana give it a drop of beer. I have seen this often. The foreigners have in many ways a greater sense of de- cency, and would not dream of doing in the streets acts which I have constantly seen done by their Eng- lish neighbours without a blush. 1 have often seen English girls of 13 and upwards drunk in the streets even on Sundays, sometimes with lads not much older, singing and shouting in Mile End Road, usually Bank Holiday time, tut I never in my life saw a drunken foreign Jewish woman. I should mention that apart from my duties I have lived in Stepney for the last three years, so I have be:n able to get a very fair knowledge of all classes in the district as they are say that I was engaged by the Committee to visit those special places) where it was considered the foreigners were in such dreadful! numbers, and I worked tihere, and a 'home was opened for the purpose of receiving them there, but for want j>f trade the home had to> be closed. 17®9. There are a great many foreign prostitutes in •some parts of London, are there not ?*—There are a few; I cannot say there are many, because I have been among A them. It was said tihere were numbers, but when I - came to see them and vis*u them I did not find them in anything like the number in which it was said they were. 17910. The.number .is a. matter of degree, but every- body knows that there are a great number of foreign .prostitutes in London. I do not think you will convince •Us there are not ?—Commercial Road is perfectly free from foreign women, and Stamford Street is clear of them. Charing Cross is nothing nearly so full as it was. 17911. That was! not the positive evidence Mr. Coot© was giving. He did not speak about the East End at all ?—Charing Cross, that is the main point., and Picca- dilly. 17912. I am sure you would be the first person to wish to get rid of them, whether1 they are more numerous than ; you think or less numerous than Mr. Coote thinks; but .if you can get' rid of them, all the better ?—Naturally -vWe try and get rid of them. (Chairman.) I think we should be discussing a matter something like 500 houses, and I took samples of houses in different parts of the district. A few of the houses that I visited were better-class houses, but. the large majority of them were houses occupied by working people, so that imy units are really not these areas in their entirety, but the working class portion of those areas. 17977. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I suppose they would be practically working classes under a rehousing scheme ?— Yes, they would come within the definition in the .'Standing Orders. 17978. (Mr. I/yttelton.) Were they indiscriminately chosen among that class ?—Yes. 17979. (Chairman.) Now will you give us the compari- son?-—The last table shows; the overcrowding, and in Mile End Old Town I found two instances of overcrowd- ing per 100 houses visited. 17980. That is 2 per cent. ?—It is two instances. 17^81. But it happens to be out of 100, and therefore .you get 2 per cent. ?—It is not quit© 2 per cent., because Ihe two instances might occur in the same house. In Whitechapel I found nine; in Lambeth I found 26; in St. Pancras 31; and in Kensington 14. 17Sf82. (•Chairman.) Whitechapel comes in Stepney, does it not?- (Major IE vans-Gordon.) In the metropolitan borough «of Stepney. 17983. {Chairman.) But in the Stepney district we tiave been talking of?--' (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes. 17984. (Chairman.) Would Mile End?-- (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes. 17985. (Chairman.) How many cases) did you investi- gate in gross in Mile End and Whitechapel ?—507 in -Mile End Old Town and 497 in Whitechapel. 17986. How did you select those houses ?—I- took them practically at random. I endeavoured to see one or two houses in this court, and one or two houses in tihat joourt, and one or two in this street, and so on. 17987. Do you think they were fair samples of the houses occupied by these aliens ?—It was not limited to foreigners at all. 17988. But were they fair samples of the houses?—I •think so. 179$9. The date of the investigation was in 1894 ?— .1894. The dates do not correspond in those five dis- tricts. The date of Mile End a,nd Whitechapel was 1894; in St, Pancras it was 1898; in Lambeth 1895; and :in Kensington 1899. 17990. Would it come within your duty now to make siuch an investigation in the East End. I suppose it would give you a considerable amount of trouble ?_Yes bu t, of course, I could do it. ' 17991. We have no right to ask you to do it, but if i;he Commission could have got your comparison at the same date it would have been better for us ?_— 17992. (Mr. Vallance.) Are there not some more recent figures, by Dr. Shirley Murphy ?—No, I think not. These were the most recent as to Mile End and Whitecha-pel. When the Medical Officer was before the Commission he gave figures that he had obtained from the Census Office Ibut these are figures of my own inspection, and not Census figures in any way. 17993. (Chairman.) The Secretary hands me some figures that had better go on the note at this point. According to the Jewish Board of Deputies' Reports the percentage of foreigners in Lambeth was 116, in Ken- sington 2'64, in St. Pancras 3'46, in Stepney 18'18 per cent. This is very recent. Now will you proceed with j)r jpt # your evidence ?—Thus overcrowding was far more fre- Hamer. 4uent m Kensington (inspected in 1899), in St. Pancras r ——' (inspected in 1898), and in Lambeth (inspected in 1895), 30 Mar. 1903. than in Mile End Old Town and Whitschapel (inspected in 1894). 17994. In Mile End and Whitechapel, as far as you know, would that be the most acute alien population or less than some other portion of Stepney?—That would be the most acute. Of the four divisions, Mile End, Whitechapel, St. George's, and Limehouse, Mile End, and Whitechapel contained the most. At that time Whitechapel contained a great many more than Mile End. 17995. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Surely 'St. George's always contained more than Mile End?—Was that so 10 years ago? 17996. The thing is only spreading into Mile End now, St. George's is antecedent to Mile End. The foreign population affected St. George's as one of the first places?—That may be so. Again, in reporting upon St. Pancras, I compared my own figures relating to over- crowding with the Census statistics, and found that the Census definition was in practice more inclusive than the bye-law definition. Thus, while according to the Census (1891),^ 80,000 persons in St. Pancras were living under conditions of overcrowding, an estimate based upon my own observations indicated that the persons living in St. Pancras under conditions in which the bye-law limits were transgressed, did not number 10,000. 17997. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is because of the dif- ferent standard, I suppose ?—Yes. 17998. The Census adopts the standard of two> persons to a room, and the bye-laws say so many to the cubic foot ?—Yes, that is so. 0'f course, the sizes of the rooms vary so very much. 17999. (Mr. Vallance.) The two per room standard is the County Council standard,, is it not?—It is the standard that is adopted in estimating how many per- sons a block of buildings will accommodate. 18000. (Sir Kenelnt Digby.) It is the rehousing standard ?—Yes. # 18001. (Chairman.) Everything must depend on the size of the room in the two per room standard?_ Yes. 18002. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is an unsatisfactory standard, but it is the rough .and ready rehousing stan- dard. If you have to rehouse 100 people, you must have 50 rooms. I do not know whether the Home Office was responsible for it or the County Council; it is the Home Office standard ?—Yes. Another consideration of interest was brought to my notice in Kensington, where it was found that common lodging houses presented a striking contrast to the tenemented houses side by side with them. Even in instances in which the same men had control over the two sorts of houses adjoining one another, the sanitary conditions in the two sets of pre- mises were markedly different. It has been found that this holds good in other parts of London, there being few streets containing common lodging houses m which the condition of these premises does not compare favour- ably with that of adjoining houses. Thus, while in common lodging houses the regulations are strictly en- forced, in the case of tenemented houses this is only exceptionally the case. The control of overcrowding in these tenemented houses, which accommodate persons who do not attach more importance to cubic space provision in relation to health than the occupants of common lodging houses, can, it would ^ appear, be satisfactorily carried out on -the lines adopted in these last-named houses. Immigrants from Russia, etc., in the absence of such control, often live under conditions of overcrowding, but there is no reasion for supposing, having in view the readiness to comply with the law relating to milk- shops, workshops, etc., exhibited by them, that they would not fall into line if bye-laws regulating overcrowd- ing were put in operation. Indeed, the fact that there is a considerable immigrant element in the Stepney population, makes the task of dealing with overcrowd- ing less formidable in that district than in the poorer parts of south and central London. 18003. (Chairman.) Your last official survey of Whitechapel and Mile End was in 1894?—Ye.v 18004. Without making general surveys, have you been in those districts officially' since that time from , time to time?—Oh, yes, pretty frequently. In 1894 I was engaged there day by day for a number of weeks. I have not done anything since.664 "ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Hanj,erM 30 Mar. 1903. 18005. ;Have you h-?td the opportunity of forming any general judgment: as to ...the overcrowding since that time ?—Yes, I think I may say so. '' 18006. -What is your general view, has the overcrowd- ing decreased or increased since 1894 ?— Speaking gene- rally, I should not think there was very much difference. .18007. As far as you can judge?—-As far as I can judge. . If 1 were to ,go and make another inquiry, i should expect to find, probably, about the same results. 18008. Is there any practical suggestion you can make to us as to the way in which any 'alteration could be made in the law as to the power given to the authorities to correct overcrowding ?—The difficulty arises in con- nection with these blocks of dwellings, owing to the decision that was recently given in the case of Weatheritt -y. Cantlay. The authorities are afraid that they cannot deal with blocks of dwellings on the face of that decision ; and, practically, nothing is being done in the way of dealing with those houses. 18009. Do you wish each separate holding to be made a house,?—Yes, each block a house, and each separate tenement a lodging. 18010. Is there anything else you can suggest to us, practically ?—I have read Mr. Mead's evidence, in which he said he doubted whether there was power to inspect at night. I do not know whether there is any doubt about that. 18011. No, I think not?—I think it is most desirable there should be power to inspect at night. 18012. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I suppose, under the bye-* laws, inspection does go on at night, does it not ?— Under the Common Lodging 'House Bye-Laws night inspection is carried out. 18013. But the .question arises in this way, whether or not, where the bye-laws give power to inspect, and do not say anything about the time the inspection is to take place, whether a court would hold that the bye- laws woul'd not warrant an inspection at night. That was Mr. Mead's view?—Yes; the bye-laws provide for inspections at all times. 18014. That has never been decided ?—It has never been contested. 18015. It can •easily be raised, and I suppose the local authorities, until that point is decided against them, would probably consider that the bye-law did give them power to inspect at night ?—Yes ; some local authori- ties have taken that view, and have had inspections made 'at nigjht. 18016. With regard to bye-laws; generally; there has been some controversy here -as to their utility. What is your view about the utility of bye-lws under the Act of 1891 $—I think they have been most useful where they have .been used. 18017. Have they not been used to the extent they might be ?—No. 18018. Anyhow, "be the bye-laws as efficient as they may be, they have left in some places .a good deal to be desired, have they not ?—Do> you mean legal difficulties have arisen? 18019. The powers of registration, for instance, have not been carried out. I think in one parish there was a sort of optional power?—In Bethnal Green there was a discretion given the authority, which they exercised by not • doing -anything at all. 18020. Would you say, generally, that efficient bye- laws-, efficiently exercised, add very considerably to the effectiveness of dealing with this question of overcrowd- ing?—I think so,, because there has been experience of their use in agreatmany districts. 18021.' Otherwise, you do not get' any' definition of what " overcrowding" is ?—-Quite so. You have to prove what overcrowding is in e»ach case. 18022. And it, gives a more ;direct penal power of, prq^dution f or ;bverdrowding|—. 4 V666 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION . Dr. W. H. 18084. Did you visit any of the houses at night V— Hamer. Not at 'that tim®. 30 Mar. 1903. 18085. Therefore, you could not really tell what the __1_ * sleeping population was in those house®?—Of course, I had to rely entirely on the statements of the people. 18086. You merely inquired at the houses ?—Yes. 18087. And you relied on the statements of the people?—Yes. ^ 18088. Did you inquire as to day and night occupa- tion ?—As to the night occupation, the number of people who slept in the rooms. 18089. You went for the night occupation ?—Yes. 18090. Did you, in the course of your researches in Whitechapel and Mile End, come across -any houses in- habited by foreigners who could not speak English ?— Oh, yes. 18091. How did you ascertain the facts there ?—One generally found there was some friend or somebody who Was able to translate. A child very often could speak English when the parents could not. 18092. Can you give us what proportion of these houses that you visited in Mile End and Whitechapel— 507 in the one case and 497 in the other—were inhabited by foreigners ?—I doubt whether I could give you that. 18093. You have not ,got that?—I should not have noted that. I should have noted it in particular in- stances, but I could not give it for the whole. # 18094. What proportion would you s'ay ?—I,should not like to say, without looking through my notes again. It is nearly years ago. 18095. (Chairman.) It must be a higher proportion than Iiamlbeth or Kensington?—Oh, yes. 18096. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) Did you go to the places where you expected to find most overcrowding?—Pro- bably I paid more attention to those than the others, but I have tried to sample houses all through the dis- trict. 18097. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The streets are very important, and we shall have these streets from you 1— Yes. 18098. Now, with regard to the bye-laws, have you had any practical experience yourself with regard to the ad- ministration of the bye-laws ?—I have had to go round and interview all the medical officers of health who have the working of these bye-laws on two or r.hree occasions for the London County Council. 18099. You have never had the actual administratioil of them yourself?—I have never myself administered them* 18100. (Mr. Lyttelton.) If you take the period be- tween 1894 and 1898, the time that you examined the cotaditions in Whitechapel, and the time that you ex- amined the conditions in St. Pancras, are you aware of anything happening in those four years in St. Pancras which increased the overcrowding ?—No, I do not ^hink so. I think that St. Pancras has been getting more overcrowded of late years. 18101. I want to know how far you think in your own mind the comparison of 1894 with 1898 is a fair compari- son?—'I do not think a very /great discrepancy would come in there. There might be a small difference. It might be that if I had inspected St. Pancras in 1894, and inspected the same houses, instead of finding 31 per 100 I might have found 28, or something of that sort, but I do not think: the' difference would have been more than that. 18102. The increase is gradual, but slight, you think 1 —I think so. 18103. As regards Kensington, a great clearance has taken place within that period, between 1894 and 1899. On the Cadogan Estate, for instance, there have been a great many clearances?—That would be south, and would be in Chelsea largely. 18104. That is not embraced in Kensington?—No. 18105. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But there have been clearances 'also in Kensington ?—That would be South Kensington. My inquiries in Kensington had more to do with North Kensington than South Kensington. South Kensington is, to a large extent, a well-to-do residential quarter. 18106. (Chairman.) I understand you took represen- tative houses. Were they representative districts 1 You would go to the houses where you would expect to find overcrowding. Certain houses where there would be overcrowding proibably still remain in all these dis- tricts. You selected houses in which you thought there would be overcrowding %—I selected houses occupied by poor people. 18107. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Indiscriminately?—Yes. 18108. You took the working-class dwellings and visited indiscriminately ?—-Yes. 18109. If I gather aright your view is that the com- parison between 1894 and 1898 is not .an unfair one,, and you might fairly take the conditions obtaining in each district ?—I think so. You may make some small allowances, but the allowance is not such as to vitiate the general bearing of the figures. 18110. As between the proportion of (alien inhabitants of St. Pancras in 1898 and alien inhabitants of White- chapel and Mile End Road, what figure have you?—I have not got that here. There is only one part of St. Pancras that is largely occupied by foreigners, and that is in the neighbourhood of the Tottenham Court Road. In that portion of St. Pancras there are a number of foreigners. 18111. But still the number of aliens even in 1894 in Mile End and Whitechapel is much greater in propor- tion to the rest of the population than in St. Pancras ? —Yes. 18112. Your deliberate conclusion, that is to say, the inference to be drawn from your figures is that the niatives are worse offenders in the matter of overcrowd- ing than the alien ?—Of course, I am speaking now not of the entire native population, but only those natives whose houses I visited. 18113. These districts in which you made the com- parison f—Yes. 18114. As far as St. Pancras and Lambeth tare con- cerned that would be the inference?—Yes. 18115. (Chairman.) You ought to put it there are in certain districts houses in which the offence is greater amongst natives than :amongst aliens ?—Yes. 18116. You ought not to make it more general than that ?—No. 18117. (Mr. Lyttelton.) So far as you have found in applying a remedy to the evil, is it your deliberate opinion that the aliens have been more susceptible to discipline than the natives ?—Oh, yes. 18118. You have no doubt about that?—No doubt at all. 18119. It miay be an extravagant supposition, but, as- suming a desire on the part of the local authority to really drastically administer the overcrowding Acts, in your opinion would the alien population yield to such discipline readily P—I think so. 18120. In fact, I think you go further ?—They would yield more readily. It would be more easy to do away with overcrowding in Stepney than in Southwark. 18121. Because the immigrant population are in your view more docile?—Yes. They have a capacity for earning more than the natives have. They could stand the payment of a little more rent, and so on, better than natives could, and taking them as a whole they are much more sober than the native population. 18122. I am afraid to get this table of yours up to 1903 would involve a very great labour ?—It would involve considerable labour. 18123. These figures are very important?'—Yes.; it would involve much labour. 18124. (Mr. Vallance.) At the time of your inspection in St. Pancras had the Great Central Railway been com- pleted ?—I think not. 18125. It was in course of construction?—It was in course of construction. It did not come into St. Pan- cras. It is in Marylebone. 18126. Does not it pass through St. Pancras?—No, it is west of St. Pancras. 18127. But my point is the same. That caused a cer- tain demolition of houses, I suppose?—Yes. 18128. A considerable demolition?—Yes. 18129. And it also brought into the district some thousands of railway navigators, did it not ?—Yes. 18130. Could this overcrowding which you have scheduled have been exceptional, and occasioned by sudden irruption into the district of these navigators ?— I think it is possible, but I should not have thought they would have come so far as the area I was dealingMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. with. I should have thought that the south-western portions of Hampstead and Paddington would have been more affected than St. Pancnas was. 18131. But still, some thousands of workmen would bo thrown into the district?—Yes. 18132. And they would 'have, for the time being, to find temporary accommodation ?—Yes. 18133. And that accommodation would necessarily be within a. certain radius ?—Yes. 18134. Would Somers Town come within that radius? —I doubt it. I do not think it would. . 18136. (Lord Bothschild.) Do you know anything about the comparative rents in the East End and in other parte of London where you say there is overcrowding, like Netting Dale ? Are the rents higher or lower there than in Stepney ?—I should be sorry to speak without looking iiito that. I have a number of notes on the rents. 18136. (Chairman.) You will let Major Gordon have the particulars of those houses and streets?—Yes, my Lord. WHITECHAPEL. Houses Visited by Dr. Hamer in the Following Streets, etc. Gun Street. Crispin Street. Dorset Street. New Court. Miller's Court. Harriot, Place, Fashion Street. Union Court, Fashion Street. Nelson; Court, Fashion Street. Norwich Court, Upper East Smithfield., Wellclose Square. Graces Alley. Cable Street. Backchurch Lane. Mundy's Place, Back- church Lane. Williams Bents, Back- church Lane. Providence Place, Back- church Lane. Brunswick Place, Back- church Lane, Plumber's Row. Fieldgate Street. Orange Row. Charlotte Court. Charlotte Street. Green; Street. Oxford Street. JCast Mount Street. Bedford Street. Cotton Street. Buck's Row. Winthrop Street. Nelson Court, White- chapel Road. Buxton Street. North Place. Underwood Street. Buttress Gardens. Thomas Street. Baker's Row. Hanbury Street. King 'Edward Street. Albert Cottages. Lytton House. Hobson's Place. Eele Street. Spring Gardens. Tewkesbury Buildings. Drum Yard, Whitechapel Ro^d. Biull Stake Court. Green Dragon Yard. Chicksand. Street. Dunk Street. • 6144. Bell Court. Cox's Square. Short Street. Cobb's Yard. Cobb's Court. Corea Place. Bull Court. Tripe Yard. Paradise Place. Tewson's Court. Frying Pan Alley. Rosetta Place. Parliament Court. John's Place, Hunt Street. Hunt Court, Hunt Street Hunt Place, Hunt Street. Charlotte Court, Hunt Street. Sheba Street. Blossom Place, Blossom Street. Regent's Place, Blossom Street. Wentworth Street. Middlesex Street. Elder Street. Bell Lane. Artillery Street. Artillery Passage. Fort Street. White's Row. Lamb Street. Puma Court. Shepherd Street. Fisher's Alley. Lardner's Buildings. Dinah's Buildings. Steward Street. .Emery Place. Butler Street. Freeman Street. Tenter Court. Tenter Street. Tilley Street. Heneage Street. Adelaide Place. Osborn Place. Frostic Place. MILE END OLD TOWN Great Garden Street. Palmer Street. Black Lion Yard. Vine Court. Hampshire Court. Little Tongue Yard. Old Montague Street. Montague Place. Princes Place, John's Place. Eagle Place. Green's Place. Regal Place. George Court, Casson Street. John Court. Boundary Court, Spelman Street. Osborn Court, Chicksand Street. Brick Lane. Chapel Place. Duncan Street. Hanover Place, Brick Lane. New Court, Hanbury Street. Wilkes Street. Chapel Street. Wheler Street. Luntley Place. Ely Place. Spelman Street. Little John Street. Little Halifax Street. Finch Street. Casson Street. Queen Ann Street. Elizabeth Place. Hobson's Cottages. Bennett's Court. Paternoster Row. Corbet's Court. Great Eagle Street. Quaker Street. Poole's Square. New Square. Pope's Head Court. Harrison's Buildings. Union Place. Great Pearl Street. Wilk Court. Half Wilk Court. Crown Court. Vine Yard. Little Pearl Street. Wentworth Court, East and West. Catherine Terrace. Eastman's Court. Coburg Court. Bradwell Street. Buckridge Street. Devonshire Street. Globe Road. Longnor Road. Moody Street. Ferrier's Place, Globe Road. Alias Road. Mary's Buildings, Devon- shire Street. Caroline Place, Globe Road. Jupp's Road. Longfellow Road. Georgina Place. Wilson Street. Baggallay Street. Maplin Street. Regent's Place. Salmon Street. Cordelia Street. Mile End Road. Mile End Place. Grebe Court. Driver's Buildings. Harford Street. Shandy Street. Duckett Street. Knott Street. Masters Street. Mary Street. Lomas Buildings. Ocean Street. Cadiz Street. Willow Street. Nicholas Street. St. Peter's Road. Cephas Street. West Street. Sceptre Street. Ann Street. Hardy Place. Cornwall Road. Cornwall Square. Cornwall Place. James Street. Victoria Place. Eagle Place. Cleveland Street. Cleveland Grove. Whitehead Street. Union Buildings. Union Place. Coburgh Place. Doveton Street. ; Pelican Parage. Entick Street. Railway Place. Dempsey Street. Exmouth Street. Redman's Road. Silver Street. Brilliant Street. Welles ley Street. Princes Street. Norfolk House. Cottage Court. Diggon Street. Garden Street. Smith's Place. Monteagle Street. Emmett Street. Single Place. Wade's Place. Grosvenor Street. Portland Street. Albany Street. Old Church Road. Heath Street. Senrab Street. Copley Street. Fair Street. Charles Street. Apsley Street. Gold Street. Mountford Street. Union Street. Sion Square. Mulberry Street. Chapel Place. Holloway Street. Little Holloway Street Plumber's Row. Yalford Street. White Hart Court. Coke Street. Greenfield Street. Settles Street. Gloucester Court. Myrdle Street. Fordham Street. Romford Street. New Road. Nottingham Place. Parfett Street. Rutland Street. Walden Stireet. Varden Street. ' Bedford Square. Baker Street. Baker's Court. Cohen's Court, Bedford Cottages. John s Place. Lewin's Buildings. 4 p668 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Dr. W. H. Sidney Street. Earner. Horsley Buildings. ™™Adelina Grove. 30 Mar. 1903. Gateshead p;ace. Harlow Place. Turner Street. Newark Street. Nelson Street. Philpot Street. Philpot Court. Commercial Road. Cameron Place, t Bedford Street* Greenwood Street. Cecil Street. Leslie Street. Hewitt's Court. Jubilee Street. Harding Street. Steel's Lane. Johnson Street. Lucas Street. Clark Street. Coborn Eoad. James Street. Mr. Lewis Solomon, called; and Examined. Mr. L, Solomon. 16137. (Lord Bothschild.) Are you an architect ?:—Ye*:. 18138. I believe you are architect to the Federation of Synagogues'?—Yes. 18139. You wish to give some evidence about the cause of the rise of rents in the East End, and to compare the state of the East End with the rest of London ?—That is so. 18140. Perhaps you had better read the paper you have prepared P—The main cause of the rise of rents in the East End of London is not the so-called invasion of the alien immigrant, but it is , due to natural causes which have been operating tall over London and other large towns. The houses in Tenter Ground, for instance, inhabited principally by Jews and alliens, are within one mile of the Bank. As a town increases the pressure on the centre becomes more intense, and sites. become so valuable for business purposes, either as offices or ware- houses- 18141. (Chairman.) When you say that "as a town increases the pressure on the centre becomes more in- tense," how do you apply that phrase to Stepney ?—I reckon the centre of business! London as the Mansion House. 18142. You mean the property nearer1 the Mansion House receives greater pressure ?—Yes ; that house® for private occupation are no longer erected, and those private houses already existing become converted. Take Broad Street, City, for example, where my office is situated, two doors from where the old German Synar- gogue used to be. The rental value of a private house there might have been worth, say, £200 a year a few years ago ; now the ground is worth considerably more for offices, the ground area value having gone up from Is. a foot to over 10s. a foot. In the case of Tenter Ground- 181&3. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Where isi Tenter Ground?— That, is the neighbourhood at the back of Scarborough Street., between Prescot Street and Goodman's Fields*. 18144. (Chairman.) In Stepney?—It is in White- chapel, I fancy. In the case; of Tenter Ground a house having a frontage of 16ft. with a depth of 25ft. might produce about £1 a week for four rooms and two attics, tenant paying rates and taxes—equivalent to a rental of £40 a. year. 18145. That is after paying rates and taxes ?—No, that is a house, if it were let on repairing lease, would be worth £40 a year. 18146. But if it is let at £1 a week that is £52 a year P —It is weekly property. ' 18147. You mean it is equivalent to a net rent of £40 a year to the landlord ?—Yes. 18148. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It is rather under the mark if anything?—But I do not want to.exaggerate in any way. 18149. (Lord Bothschild.) The tenant pays the rates and taxes?—Yes. 18150. (Chairman.) Then it is the repairs on such a house ?—The landlord pays for repairs. 18151. Is it the collection and repairs that bring down the £1 a week to* £40 a year ?—And the risk of empties; if a tenant goes away after being in the house for three or four weeks it would want doing up again. 18152. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You generally take 25 per cent. ?—Yes, you generally take off that. I have erred on the safe side. 18153. (Chairman.) It is very much the same as you take off for rateable value?—Yes. 18154. (Mr. Vallance.) You do not take off £12 from £52 to provide for that?—No; but if a client came to me and said : "I hare an offer of £1 a week for this house, which is equivalent to £50 a year; what would you let the house for if the man would take it on a seven years' lease, and if he would do the repairs.—shall I take £40 a year ?" I would say, " By all means take £40 a year." 18155. Would it not be correct to say that LI a week to a weekly tenant, assuming the tenant does not pay rates and taxes, would be equivalent, to £30 or £40 a year, the tenant paying rates and taxes ?—Yes, but that k not the point at all. This is merely to get at an idea of the equivalent value. 18156. (Chairman.) If you were advising a client who was going to invest his money, and he had a weekly tenancy of £1 a week, you would say you cannot take that at £52 a year if you want to get 6 per cent, on your money, but you must take it at £40 a year ?—Precisely. Such an area for a, warehouse there would be worth about £36. The capital value of the house would be £700, approximately, and of the warehouse area £900. 18157. What number of years' purchase would you take it at ?—Nearly 30 years' purchase ; 28 years' pur- chase, I should say. 18158. (Lord Bothschild.) The value of the site is more thain the value of the house ?—Yes, because it is better secured. 18159. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You would want your build- ing on the sate before you could charge a ground rent for it?—You ought to have it, but I do not think, there is much difficulty for and make them into ware- houses ?—'Yes. Mr. L. Solomon. 30 Mar. 1903. 18197. And if he does not pull them down to adapt the dwelling houses to warehouses?—Yes. (Chairman-) What is the meaning of adapting dwell- ing houses to warehouses ? 18198. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Turning dwelling houses into factories 1—Yes. 18199. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Or into workshops ?—Yes. 18200. (Mr. Lyttelton.) In your view, that course—670 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Mr. L. which would be an economic benefit to the owner—is Solomon. not pursued, in some cases because* of sentiment; and -r... in some cases because of want of capital?—Exactly. ^ Mar. 1903. 18201. Then in a case where-the owner was a capitalist, and was not sentimental, he would pull down the houses in your view in each case ?—Exactly. Look at Holliiigton's in Middlesex Street, that big warehouse; it was all shops formerly. They are all warehouses now. 18202. (Chairman.) It is very important for us not to look at what might occur, but what has occurred in Stepney. We had some very interesting sketches by a witness, Mr. Gordon, showing us the clear ances7 Do you know Stepney well enough to tell us what have been the clearances there ?:—No, I do not. 18203. Have they been very considerable ?1—Yes. 18204. For railway purposes ?—Yes. 18205. 'Brewery purposes %—Yes. 18206. And factories?—Yes. 18207. And, of course, we know now the population Of the various periods from the Census returns ?—Yes. 18208. Notwithstanding the building of block tene- mients, there must be much lesis accommodation in Stepney for more residents than existed some time ago ? —I believe you are right. 18209. It may be in consequence of those two things occurring, namely, the loss of the residential occupa- tion houses and an increase of population, that there is more overcrowding in Stepney than there was before? —There may be. 18210. Can you, from your knowledge and observa- tion, tell us, supposing this business-like view of yours were to prevail, and these houses were to be be taken .down for the purpose of building business premises, what do you think would become of the present popula- tion of Stepney?1—They would separate. 18211. Of course they would separate, but where do you think they would drift to ?—Into the suburbs grad- ually ; first of all, within a mile; then a mile and a half, then two miles, then 2^ miles from the Bank ; they would spread out gradually. 18212. Would they not have difficulty in finding ac- commodation ?—Only at first. 18213. How would their wants be supplied?—The .. speculating builders would build streets of cottages for them. 18214., But there is now a great demand for work- men's dwellings, a demand which is not supplied ?—Is not that always the case, my Lord ? 18215. I know, but I am looking at it progressively. If this wise and business-like point of view, and finan- . cial point of view prevails the evil will increase, will it not?—Yes, but what has occurred isi this : a factory is built in the suburbs. For instance, I have built a /.factory an acre in extent in Tottenham. Till I went there it was all vacant land. The moment my factory is finished for my client, the speculating builder comes and builds streets of houses, all round' it. When I Went there a little over 12 months ago, there was not .anything on the site at all, except market gardens. Directly I started my factory for my client somebody comes and Buys the land all round, and a® the factory gets finished the cottages are put up ; and they are put up so quickly that in! two or three weeks almost ; you see a cottage go up, so that the neighbourhood gets filled very quickly. 18216. If you get a certain distance from the centre you do find vacant land ?—Yes. 18217. I suppose persons have to go out from the far as the children are concerned, they are much more orderly in behaviour, and it seems to me that they are cleaner and better dressed than the children of the natives. I attribute this to the fact that foreign Jewish parents take more interest in their children than the native working classes do. I have never known any occasion when it has been necessary to* eject Jewish children. The late Supt. Weston of the J Division, in conversation with me one day in the Museum, said that if all the population of the East End were Jews, many of the police-stations might be closed. He referred to adults as well as children. I have never noticed any of the hustling or disorderly behaviour in the streets on the pant of foreign Jews alleged by one of the witnesses. As to the statement that they hustle the English off the pavement, this is physically impossible, as the English would not stand it. On the contrary, I have seen small Jew boys bullied and old Jews pelted by the natives. Secondly, I have observed the great difference at holiday times; between the Jewish and non-Jewish methods of behaviour. On the Jewish New Year's Day and other holidays, the phildren, with their parents, usually walk in a decorous way up and down the streets, visit the parks or the Museum, and at an early hour go home. There is none of the rowdiness and insobriety which marks an English holiday. I consider that these foreign Jews are infinitely better dressed than the same class of natives; they always have a best suit or dress for Saturday. The superiority of dress is particularly noticeable in the children and young women. There is in the East End a considerable number of millinery and dressmaking shops, the windows of which would not disgrace a West End house. These clothes do not appeal to the British working classes, being apparently beyond their means, yet these shops flourish in spite of the pre- sumed poverty of the foreigners. At Christmas and other Bank Holiday seasons, Bethnal Green is one drunken orgy. Hundreds of English of the lower classes may be seen waiting early in the morning of Boxing Day for one local public-house to open, many of these people-, having probably been up all night. When I have been on resident duty in the Museum ! can hear them when I am sleeping there. 18271. Chairman.) Would your duty at the Museum keep you up all night?—It would not keep me up all night, but the noise made by the natives did. 18272. You were resident there ?—Yes. 18273. It did not keep you up, but it prevented youf going to sleep ?—Quite so. I have never yet seen a. drunken Jewish person, nor have I ever observed in the back streets or otherwise any indecorous or indecent conduct of any description on the part of Jewish people. So far as the children -are concerned, I consider their language is infinitely better than that of the non-Jewish boys and girls. As to the standard of food of these' foreigners, one has only to do down Goulston Street on a Thursday—'that is a street very near Middlesex ,Street —to see how extensively they buy good food, such as- poultry, fis'h, etc., particularly poultry. British work- men, 'as far as I have observed, never think of buying, poultry. I cannot help thinking that the statement' that these 'foreigners live on ia cup of tea and a crust of bread is absolutely incorrect. Some few of them no* doubt do, just .as some of the English working classes^ live on .a very poor scale. The boys born in England of foreign parents are quite English in their manners; and tastes. Indeed, tihey would, so far as I know, be most indignant if they were called anything else. They are remarkably loyal to the British Throne, and'many I know made strenuous efforts, not always sucessful, to go out to the war in South Africa. On the whole, I think the foreign Jewish population sets a very good example to those with wihom they come over to live. One great factor in generally improving the physique and morals is the Jewish Lads' Brigade, which in a semi- military manner inculcates haib'its of cleanliness, dis~ cipline, and honour .among these foreign Jewish boys. My own surprise 'at seeing their smartness and precision at drill (the more so thlat I was informed that many of Captain E. W.672 EQYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Captain the non-commissioned officers were unable to talk ]$, jp. English a few years ago) was the reason that I asked to . Denniss. be allowed to take a part in the movement. I have had -- experience with a non-Jewish brigade, .and the smart- 30 Mar. 1903. ness and discipline were far inferior. The foreign boys taike very kindly to athletics, and in ambulance work carried off the challenge shield in a competition with all other brigades. Only a few days ago, in a competition amongst these working boys' clubs in London a Jewish boy named Abrahamovitz pulled off the first prize for being the best all round athlete. That was* in com- petition with all the 'clubs, -both Jewish and English. 18274. When you say a Jewish boy, I gather he is a foreigner?—Yes. The second place was also obtained in the federation of clubs taken all round in gymnastics. From my experience at the Brady Street and other clubs I have come to the conclusion that in the same class (working lads) there is a greater air of refinement in manner as wefl as in most cases in appearance than among our own people. I think that a great part of the ill-feeling against Jews is encouraged by the flaunting of proselytising placards1 in Hebrew in front of the numerous conversion halls in the Whitechapel Road, and on Whitechapel Church, right in the district of these foreigners. This gives people an impression that the Jews are considered to be heathens. The proselytisers actually preach at the doors of their buildings. Nothing better shows their law-abiding nature than the way in which the large Jewish population pay absolutely no attention to these method's of attack on their religion. In my opinion there is much more real religion amongst the Jewish working classes than among the native class of workmen. The East End has not lost religiously by the incoming of these foreigners. It is well known that the new foreign arrivals are much stricter in religious . . observance than even the older Jewish population. A point which is generally overlooked when criticising the ' trading of these foreigners (and one which I think must prove that they get better pay than is generally believed) is that for the purposes of their religion they sacrifice days and days of labour during the year so as to keep the sacred and other holy days; even the smallest shops keep closed for several days at a time in con- nection with some of the sacred holidays. As it is obvious that they flourish in spite of this handicapping of their labour fhev must either be extraordinarily skilful (and so able to produce large quantities), or they must earn more per article made than their English fellow workmen, to be able to hold their own with them. Another point which I feel has escaped notice is this. Reference has been made to loner hours worked in 'some cases by foreign Jews on some particular occasion. But no inquiry has been1 made in such cases as. to whether the total number of hours worked in, say, the whole week has been excessive. It sometimes happens that two Jewish holy days precede or follow a Saturday or Sunday, and this may happen two or three times in a ironth, and often does happen twice in a fortnight. This means eight days' rest from labour in 14 conse- cutive -days, and even if a foreign Jew worked from 8 a.m. to 12 p.m. on every other day in the fortnight, instead of from 8 a,m. to 8 p.m., he would only have made up 'for two out of the eight days' lost labour. In f airness to the alien the number of compulsory holidays which his religion demands ought to be taken into consideration, particularly when an endeavour is made to prove that the alleged loner hours give the foreigner an advantage over the native workman. 18275. {Lord noihschild.) How long have you been -down there?—Very nearly six years at the Museum,. 18276. {Chairman.) Up till now ?—Up tall a few weeks ago. 18277. (Mr. Lytteiton.) I gather in addition to your work in the Bethnal Green Museum, you take an active part in the boys' club in the district?—Yes, in my •spare time. 18278. I gather you were attracted to the Jewish Brigade from experience gained outside?—From seeing an inspection at our headquarters; that was the first thing that attracted my attention. A battalion of them was inspected at our regimental heiadquarters, 18279. Is the Jewish Brigade a large body?—Yes, there are over 1,000 in London, 18280. They are not Volunteers, are they ?—They are not Volunteers nor cadets. It is an irresponsible body really, but administered in a ,semi-military manner.. 18280*. {Chairman.) For what purpose did they come into^existence ?—For the purpose of inculcating habits of discipline, manliness, and honour. That is t,ha end and aim of the brigade. It is what Colonel Goldsmid, the Commandant of the Jewish Lads' Brigade, called " ironing out the Ghetto bend " ; that is to say, making them walk straight. Instead of them walking about and stooping it pulls them out straight, and they are encouraged to go in for athletics. 18281. (Mr.Lytteiton.) Physical drill, boxing, and so on ?—Yes, quite so. 18282. (Chairman.) Is that supported by the Jewish community ?—Yes. 18283. {Mr. Lytteiton.) It corresponds to the Boys' Federation and the Church Lads' Brigade?—Yes. 18284. (Chairman.) During that six years, have you noticed any increase in the number of aliens ?—I have not noticed any increase ait all. I should think; it would be about the same in the last six years. There is a large number there. 18285. Have you noticed any increase in anything respecting crime. Of course it is difficult to see it out in the street, but do you think the criminal class has increased ?—I should not be able to speak to that at all. There is nothing visible. 18286. Have you noticed in respect of the destruction of houses by these business premises, that that makes any difference in the number of houses occupied?— There have been some houses pulled down in Bethnal Green quite lately. In Cambridge Road, for instance, some houses have been pulled down and been replaced by warehouses. 18287. That has not produced any visible signs in the occupation of the 'streets ?—No. 18288. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do these children learn English quickly ?—Very quickly indeed. I might men- tion that I am Chairman of the Managers of the Old Castle Street and Chicksand Street 'Schools, and the scholars of the school were entirely Jewish boys and girls—there are about five non-Jewish out of 1,500. 18289. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is this Bethnal Green ? —Close to Bethnal Green. The Old Castle Street school won one M.A. London, one B.A. London, and £870 in scholarships the year before last, and most of the children, when they come to the school, cannot talk English at all. 18290. (Chairman.) We know the Russians and Poles have a great facility in learning languages ?—Yes, that is. so. 18291. I suppose most of these children are Polish or Russian ?—A great number are Polish and Russian. 18292. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do they take to games at all P—Very much indeed. 18293. (Mr. Vallance.) Speaking of games, is it not a fact that in addition to recreation they are also' taught handicrafts) at this Jewish club ?—No, there is no teach- ing at all at the Brady Street Club. The only thing in the way of teaching is that they are taught chess and draughts, and things of that kind, and there is also, a drawing class, but there is no teaching of handicrafts. It is merely a club for recreation to keep them out of the streets. 18294. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How long do they stay at school? When do they go to work?—As soon as they can leave—about 14. 18295. (Chairman.) What class of business do they go into—into the handicrafts ?—Into a handicraft. Many of them are apprenticed by the Jewish Board of Guardians, and they go in extensively for cabinet-making, boot- making, tailoring, and other things, and some of them go as commercial travellers, and at the end of a couple of years after they have left school the. schoolboy isi a smart commercial traveller. I have met them myself, and been surprised. 18296. (Mr. Vallance.) At that club a great many of the boys have acquired a knowledge of handicrafts ?_ They have not been taught any in the club. 18297. Do you know where they are taught?—In the secondary schools, I think. 18298. Gold assaying and wrought iron work?—The boy you are alluding to who went into gold assaying is a student of the Royal School of Mines in South Kensington. He is rather a brilliant boy from the Jews' Free School. 18290. He is a member of the clulb ?—Yea. 18300. v Major JUvans-Gordon.) With regard to pk«MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 673 cards, you have told us about spreading bad feeling against the Jewish, people ; how can they spread bad feeling if they are in Hebrew? — Because everybody knows for what purpose they are placed there. 18301. 1 should not. know, going along, whether the thing Was referring to Jews or whether it was referring to an auction sale ?—They are posted on the church itself, and they are also posted on the doors of these buildings, over which is premanently inscribed the Captain object of the institution, which is for the conversion of E. W. Jews. Denniss. 18302. You would agree with me that money which is ^ ]y[ar 1993 subscribed and sent down for that purpose is very ill _!_ spent?—Very ill spent. Adjourned for a short time. Mr. William H. Ward, called ; and Examined. 18303. 1[Lord Bothschild.) Are you the Vaccination Offiaer of Bethnal Green?—Yes. 18304. Do you live at Ilford ?—Yes. 18305. You were born in Bethnal Green, and have lived there until the last six years?—Yes. 18306. Have you filled the office of Vaccination Officer in Bethnal Green for 22 years ?—Yes. 18307. You are an Englishman, and therefore neither a J^w nor a foreigner ?—Yes. 18308. Under those circumstances you can speak with- out any feeling or sympathy from your own observation ? —-Cei oainiy 18309. Yooi get a return of every birth in the parish, and you have to account for the same to the Local Government Board in connection with vaccinations ?—■ Yes- 18310. Perhaps afteir these few questions you would read the rest of your evidence yourself?—I have read the evidence given as to immorality among foreigners in the East End, and have grave doubts as to its accuracy. What has always surprised me is the small amount of immorality among the foreigners in our district. I have formed my opinion from the fact, that there is an exceedingly small proportion of illegitimate births among foreigners there, the majority of whom are Jews. The actual number of such births during 1901 was two. This number includes the illegitimate children not only of foreigners, but of the children of foreigners born here who> are legally English. The corresponding number of births of illegitimate children of native women during the same year was 74. From these figures, and from my own observation as the result of my life-long residence in the district, I consider that the foreigners are highly moral, and that in this respect their example should be a benefit to our native residents in the same district. Apart from the fact that the foreign Jews seem to be moral by nature, their men are thrifty and domesticated, and marry freely. This probably is one of the causes of the absence of immorality among women. 18311. (Chairman.) Do they marry among English women, or only among their own people?—I think they marry .among the English women as well. I noticed that one of the witnesses, a missionary, referred to* the fact t that he had seen sights which shocked him in the Jewish districts. I believe I know what he refers to. The foreign women, when nursing their children, have not the same ideas of strict, decency in their dress whilst in their houses and at their doors as the natives, have. This does not. by any means imply a want of sense of decency; it simply means that they and their men do not. regard the act of nursing as an indecency. It must be remem- bered in respect to. this that these people have practi- cally their own streets and districts. As to< the general behaviour of the foreigners in our district, I have always found them decent and law-abiding. I find an entire absence of the arrogance and expression of intention to be master over the natives found by the. Rev. H. V. Eck. As far as vaccination is concerned, they obey the law and undergo the operation most willingly, and I have never yet had to summon a single foreigner in con- nection with the Vaccination Act. I find a vastly dif- ferent state of things when I have to* deal with . the natives. I have nearly every week a batch of summonses against them. I am sure that we run no danger of disease from the foreigners, and if our natives; were only as conscientious in obeying the laws as to vaccination there would be much less risk of small-pox getting a hold. Asi to< the cleanliness of the foreigners, I do not And any difference between them and their native neigh- bours. Here again my experience is entirely opposed to that of the Rev. H. V. Eck. It is difficult to conceive •anything filthier than some of tihe native homes in Bethnal Green. Cleanliness mainly depends on space end time, rather than 011 "inclination. Old dilapidated Louses owned by bad landlords can hardly be kept clean, 6144. and the occupiers of these houses seem to take their Mr. W. H ideas of cleanlinesvs from their immediate surroundings. Ward. 1 am sure, however, that the Jewish women take as much interest in making their homes comfortable as the wives of native workmen, and I understand that it is quite iiie exception for a foreign married woman to be engaged in manual work, her time being given up to her home and family. From my own observations it does not seem to me that the foreigner has an adverse effect on local trade; for food purposes certainly they mainly depend on their own shops. This is not because ihfry are foreigners!, but because th-v are mainly Jews; !■ 1 vt my experience is that as soon as they can make themselves understood they buy where1 they can get things best and cheapest. Even for food they do not always depend on their own co-religionists. I could name, e.g., a fish stall owned by an English Christian which does a huge trade among Jews, and 011 Friday evening it is practically impossible to get near the stall, such is the number of foreign Jews who buy his goods. If a careful examina- tion were made into- the causes of the decline of trade where it exists in the East End, it would be found to be mainly attributable to the large shops which are starting in the East End as well as elsewhere in London, and which monopolise trade and drive out the small shop- keeper and his antiquated methods. Exactly the same thing has happened in Ilford, where I live. When I first went there I would not. deal at any of the shops— they were low class, and only suitable for the people who lived there before the district, changed its nature. Now Liptons, Home and Colonial Stores, Sainsburys, and other firms have opene d fin a big shops, a nd I deal with them. This change in the nature of a neighbourhood is bound to reflect more or less 011 the tradespeople. In my opinion it is a benefit for the working classes to leave the East End and live outside London in healthier quarters. What hampers this is the want of railway facilities. Personally, I would not go back to Bethnal Green even if free quarters were offered to me. In the old davs it was a healthy London suburb, but it has gradually got nearer and nearer to the City, and has completely changed its nature. 18312. What do you mean by " nearer and nearer to the City " ?—The City I should say is coming nearer to Bethnal Green, as far as warehouses and workshops* are concerned. Where there were formerly only dwelling-houses there are now large workshops, and this has brought into the district a different class of persons, and has caused competition for rooms, with the natural result that, values have risen and the rents of the houses and rooms, many of which are dilapidated,. have risen far above their value. This change in the nature of Bethnal Gresn, from a suburban residential to a London business quarter, is the real change that 'has taken place, far greater than any change caused by the incoming of foreigners. The erection of ware- houses and workshops) has an enormous effect in dis- housing the working classes and crowding them into the remaining 'houses—its effect on the raising of rents- is also obvious. The following are a few of the firms who have started, quite lately, large factories or ware- houses in our districts :—Rylands, Mann and Cross- man, who have displaced a large number of people, Glanfield's, Sir J. Causton's, Hebbert's, Allen and Hanbury's, and the iSanitas Company. Apart from this direct cause, it must be remembered that as many districts in London are becoming transformed from squalid working-class, neighbourhoods to better class, or even fashionable residential quarters, so other dis- tricts are bound to receive the displaced lower classes and to suffer accordingly. I know fairly well the atti- tude of a, certain section of the British; workmen towards foreigners : it is an inborn dislike of them. The English workman naturally despises all foreign per- sons, and when he hears that fhey are coming to live in wihat be regards as his own district, his dislike is liable to turn to hatred quite apart from the question whether there is any real cause for his feelings. When 4 Q674 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : MYi W. H. Ward. 30 Mar. 1903. you add to this inflammatory speeches. and articles in the Press accusing the locail foreigners of ruining the native working classes, and as being -persons possessed of every bad quality, the attitude of the working classes is not likely to be friendly. If one would ilook abroad in miany countries in Europe, one would find the same dislike of English, but this does not prove that there would be any 'fairness in such countries restricting the immigration of English. The question seems to me to be not whether there is a dislike to foreigners in the East End, but whether there is any real ground for such dislike so great as to more than counter- balance the advantage we get out of these foreigners. In my opinion these foreign settlers in the East End are an advantage, and I am sorry to say they are a •great deal preferable to a large number of our own people livinig in the same district. I entirely agree with the Rev. H. Dal ton that Sunday observance, quite ap&tt from any Jewish or foreign influence, has always been practically a dead letter in East London, and that, quite apart from the influences named, there has ■been a continual movement of the better classes out of Stepney. The natural tendency of this exodus (which is quite a natural phenomenon found from time to time in other parts of London), would be to make the district more unsatisfactory. The fact that it is but dittle less satisfactory should be some proof as fto the character of the foreign incomers. I can confi- dently say that I have never heard a foreigner revile or insult our religion. (I refer to the evidence of the Rev. H. Carter, who I think must be in error.) On the contrary, I think our religion, in 'actively supporting conversionist methods and institutions, which work in a manner which must be most offensive to Jews, tests the law-abiding nature of these people to the utmost. 18313. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You spoke albout small- pox, and you said there was no tendency to simiall-pox amongst these aliens. Can you say the saime with regard to other infectious diseases ?—They do not come , under my knowledge. I deal only with vaccination and small-pox. 18314. They have no objection to vaccination?—None whatever ; in fact, they seek it. I think I aim right in s'a.yincr White-chapel is the best vaccinated district in the whole of London, 'and that is full of aliens. 18315. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are you in close touch with the small-pox cases?—Every case of small-pox that occurs in the parish is reported to me with a view to securing vaccination. 18316. Do you remember a case that occurred of Louis Simons, of Stepney Green, in April, 1902?— That would not come within my knowledge—that would be Stepney. I deal with Bethnal Green entirely. 18317. Bethnal Green only?—Yes. 18318. You say that these people are good about vaccination?—'Very good. 18319. What about reporting cases of small-pox?— They all report them immediately. Every doctor is bound to do so. 18320. Have you had no exception to that?—No exception to that whatever. 18321. Have you had any case of people concealing small-pox among the foreign peopile ?—No, there was a case of concealment of small-pox with English people, and the person was prosecuted. 18322. I want to quote you this case of Louis Simons, of Stepney Green This appeared in the " Times " of April 26th, 1902 : —" Louis 'Simons, of Sitepney Gr^en, was summoned as head of his family for failing to notify a case of small-pox. Mr. Young said the de- fendant's son, who refused to be vaccinated, and was 16 years of age, contracted small-pox, and while suffer- ing froim the disease was allowed to go out. A dog was also seen constantly licking his face. When Dr. Thomas heard of the case he went to the house. The son had been suffering from small-pox at least & fort- night, and the defendant admitted he had not called in a doctor. He was a Ra/bbi, and superintending the preparation of kosher meat, and was constantly going among children. Mr. Dickinson said it was quite clear the defendant know his son was suffering from small- pox, and he was fined 40s. and £2 4s. costs, or one month's imprisonment" ?—That was in Stepney, and not in my district art all. 18323. You have had no similar case come under your notice^—No, not in Bethnal Green. (Lord Bothschild.) There is nothing to show that man was a foreigner. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He was a Raflbbi. (Chairman.) The name looks like the name of an English Jew. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He may have been an English Jew, but he was a Rabbi. (Chairman.) A Jew, but not an alien. (Witness.) Nothing of that kind has come under my notice in Bethnal Green. 18324. (Chairman.) Simons would be an English Jew's name?—I should think so, my Lord. Mr. G. L. Bruce, called ; and Examined. Mr. G. L. 18325. (Lord Bothschild.) You have lived in White- Bruce. chapel since 1886 ?—Yes. - 3Ra 18326. You have been a member of the School Board and in charge of the Whitechapel, iSchools from 1891 to 1897 and from 1900 to the present time?-—Certainly. 18327. The result of the immigration has been to fill the schools in Western Stepney and Whitechapel with Jews ?—Yes. 18328. I suppose there is no reason for the allegation which was made by a witness from Stepney that pre- ference was shown to Jewish children?—The Board would punish severely any preference shown to one or the other. 18329. Do the Jewish children prove good scholars ? —Yes. I have prepared an outline of my evidence, and in reading it I should like to say that I am. not ;giving evidence on one side or the other. The Jewish children have proved excellent scholars, far the most regular in London, usually well fed even in potor families,; and bright in school. This is due largely to the excellent domestic character or tlie parents, never drinking, and devoted to their children. The district has been greatly overcrowded in consequence of the immigration. There is no remedy, that I can see, except a strict enforcement of the law. The present high rents, which encourage overcrowding, are made possible only by the overcrowding. At present the owner of a. house either overcrowds it himself, or lets it to anotherfwho overcrowds, 'or seills it to another who will allow overcrowding, in each case obtaining 50 per cent. imore rent or price than he could 'olbtain if the law were enforced, The law should not be suddenly en- forced, but no further breach permitted. Each house at present overcrowded should have its accommodation fixed, and, if possible, affixed to the entrance, 'and its present inmates scheduled. None of the present in- mates should be turned out, but no new inmate allowed until the number is reduced to the proper figure. In this way no sudden disturbance would take place, but overcrowding would cease in a few years. Unless some such procedure is adopted, present difficulties' must increase, the tenants being prepared to be overcrowded and the landlords being pecuniarily interested in over- crowding. Our need m Whiteicihapel is for light and air and space, and not for housing. 18330. (Chairman.) Why doi you say that you would not turn anybody out ? Supposing you saw a great deal of overcrowding, and it was. a nuisance, should you not abate the nuisance ?—Certainly, but so far as I see, the great difficulty in abating it at present is that you are told it would affect so very many that to begin the cure would be the end. 18331. Of the disease ?—'No, I am meeting the objec- tion by what seems to me the substantial argument, nam ely, that if you attempt to enforce the law at pre- sent, you have to turn out so many -people that you simply could not face the outcry and real amount of misery that would be caused. 18332. There is no doubt that the disease is very acute and very severe?—'Certainly, in my belief it is, but I am contending it is quite possible on the one hand to prevent it in the course of a few years without any violent disturbance; and I am contending on the other that unless you adopt stringent measures the mere economic situation will force the disease to in- crease, and is increasing it from day to day.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 675 18333. (Sir Kenel m Digby.) With 'regard-to schools, do. most of the J ewish children come to the Board schools?—I should think about three-fourths of them go to the Board schools. The proportion has increased because there were originally three or four big Jewish voluntary schools.. Those continue, but meanwhile all the surplus population has gone into the Board schools. I daresay that 15 years ago nearly the whole of the Jews were in the voluntary schools, or, at any rate, much more than one half, but now I should think that less than one fourth are there. 18334. One of the largest schools is the Jewish Free school ?—-Yes, that is the largest of them. 18355. Thait is an elementary school?—Yes, in Be)i Lane. 18336. You say those remain full of children?—Fti'ii of Jewish children. 18337. But the surplus come to the Board schools?— Yes, as the number hais increased the surplus has gone into the Board schools. 18338. And three-fourths of them are in the Board schools ?—I should think more than three-fourths are1 in the Board schools. 18339. Have they been increasing much in the Board schools ?—Yes, rapidly. 18340. You endorse in your evidence what other witnesses have said as to their intelligence, and the rapidity with which they get on ?—Yes, they are found extremely bright in the schools, and no doubt you see the best side of the parents in their relation to their children. 18341. Are they in a great majority in the Board schools as compared with the native children ?—I dare- say in a dozen, schools they are nearly the whole of the scholars, that is 95 per cent, in seven or eight of the schools, and varying down to 30 or 40 per cent, in others. . The number is spreading. As you go east- wards you gradually get the fringe, whiclh is becoming more and more Jewish. * 18342. (Mr. Vallance.) You have been in Whitechapel about 17 years ?—Yes. 18343. Consequently you know the condition of , Whitechapel as well as anyone, I should think. Has it been in your observation that the conditions of over- crowding have increased during the time you have been there ?—It has not been within my observation that individual cases have become more acute, but my im- pression is that overcrowding is much more widely spread. There are a great many more oases, though the individual cases are not perhaps so* acute as those I heard of long ago, but they may have, been exaggerated. 18344. The area of overcrowding?—Yes, the a.re>a of overcrowding has extended, and is extending every day,. I think. 18345. This overcrowding in your judgment is the crux of the question ?-—It is the great difficulty in White- . 18346. Would: you; say tbait the immigration of these: aliens into the district lias been the cause of this over- crowding, or would you say they have been the largest contributory cause?1—I should say they have been the largest contributory cause. I imagine the advance of the City would have produced a certain amount of over- crowding in any cas'e. 18347. If this question of overcrowding were effec- tively dealt with that would relieve the situation con- siderably, I suppose ?—I believe entirely. 18348. (Chairman.) I think in your evidence you attribute the overcrowding to the immigration of aliens only?-—Yes. 18349. Then will you go back to< your paper, because you had better alter that- after the answer you have given to Mr. Vallance ?—I would stand to my statement. It is substantially true. 18350. But read what you say there ?—-I say this is due to the immigration. I would rather it stand as it is there. , 18351. Theft it is not in agreement with what you have jiistnsaiid ?—I have said it is the largest contribu- tory cauise. , ,v, -■■■"' ■ 18352. You said it wag the only cause in your evidence?—I did not say it was the only cause. 18353.' You gave no other ?—No. 18354. If you .say it is the cause, that implies it is 6144. the only cause?—-I should say it is by far the largest q cause. What I have said in my statement is substan- Bruce. tially accurate. - 18355. (Mr. Vallance.) 1 take it you would not go so 30 Mar. 1903® far as to say that the condition of overcrowding would not have existed at all if it bad not been for this immi- gration of aliens ?—It might not—I cannot tell you. It is doubtful. 18356. With regard to the law which is applicable to this overcrowding, has it occurred to you that any amendment of the law in any given direction would help to relieve the difficulty ?—I should certainly like to see the value of the houses which might be scheduled un- limited ; no matter how good a house it was so long as there was any evidence of overcrowding, I. should like to see it upon the schedule. 18357. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) For the purpose of regis- tration?—Yes, then I should like to see the names of the present tenants on the schedule, and the number of people in it at this moment, and the number who. can be properly accommodated; and I should like to see no new person admitted until that house was down to its proper figure. 18358. (Mr. Vallance.) You .strongly feel that the overcrowding has been the occasion of high rentals ; that is, the possibility of overcrowding has enabled people to pay large rents ?'—Yes, exactly. I feel the two have played into one another's hands. If you had not the overcrowding you could not have high rents, and to isome extent if you had not the high rents you could not have overcrowding, but essentially I think it is the. overcrowding that has made the high rents possible. 18359. Have you received any information as to- what. tak?es place in Glasgow?—In Glasgow I believe they have adopted something of this kind, and the houses in certain districts are actually scheduled, and you have an outside plate stating the size and the number of" inmates that are allowed. But I speak without know- ledge, and I did not include it in my statement, because • I am not certain of it. 18360. Have you formed any opinion as to the desira- bility of the municipal authority being endowed with-. power to declare an area to be congested, and to restrict not the admission into the country of aliens, but the admission of those aliens into a congested district so declared?—I have not considered it, but I should not have thought it was of value. I should have thought that if you insisted on the law being carried out there was no need for it, and if you did not, the mere • increase among the present inhabitants would of itself produce overcrowding. : 18361. Taking the very congested area of Spitalfields, for instance, you would rather rely on the operation of the present law for relieving overcrowding* than close thie door of that district to* any fur'thetr adhnission without the authority of the municipal1 authority?—■ Certainly. I think the present law, if strictly carried out, would meet the case, and I do not think any restric- tion on the district would meet it. 18362. ^ The law might be carried out with strictness, and yet if there is still a flood of immigrants pouring into the district is not the position made almost im- possible?—If there is room for them I do not mind- them pouring into the district. What I should insist on is that they (should not be admitted into any house in which there was not room for them. 18363. If the law was carried out, you are of opinion' that that would suffice to meet the difficulty %—So far " a.s I can see. I have not considered the other question. 18564. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You. ©aid the mere increase" among themselves, would cause the evil—that, is to< say, inside the area round which you would put the cordon ?-— Speaking of a single' tenement, apart from the district, your greatest, difficulty probably always arises from the increase in the size of families. It. is the thin end of the wedge that gets in. You can sometimes fight the thick end, but the thin end slides in; and the increase among these Jews, is, I fancy, abnormally large. 18365. That is the way it struck me, and what I wanted you to help me in was in applying that fact to your own proposition. I understand that your proposal is to schedule the number that now exist in a house? —Exactly. 18366. And not allow any additional to come in?__ Yes, even from the inside. You have to meet that diffi- culty in any block dwellings conducted by the Countv Council; that is to say, if the rooms have their full 4 Q 2676 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. G. L. number, and a child comes, you have to arrange Bruce. in the course of the next three months or so that the „ ~ family either takes a more expensive apartment or goes, v Mar. 19U«j. The difficulty exists in every place where you put a limit on. There would be no greater difficulty here. 18367. I see that, but I do not see there would be any less difficulty?—No, there would not. It would be ex- actly the same. 18368. The proposal would be a, novelty, and that would be attended with the same difficulty of administra- tion as the existing law ?—Exactly. It is merely in- tended to bring a district, that is now in such a state of disease that you dare not apply the proper remedy at once, within a certain number of years into a healthy condition. At that point the district would pass under the ordinary regimen, and be treated as ordinary dis- tricts are. It is only a means of getting within the ordinary law. 18369. Practically it is an extension of time to deal with the difficulty?—'Exactly. 18370. As regards the proposal that Mr. Vallance was putting to you of drawing a cordon round the area, and proclaiming it a congested area, and not allowing any- one to come into it, that would require, I suppose, an army of inspectors, would it not ?—I should have thought so, but I have not considered the question carefully, and my evidence would be valueless to you, I am afraid. I will give you my opinion for what it is worth. 18371. I thought you^had considered it, because it seemed to me to be an interesting suggestion if one could see the machinery to carry it out?—It is, but I fancy the only effective way to deal with the matter is room by room, because there only you can effectively test and check. 18372. Were you in the room this morning when Mr. Solomon gave evidence?—No, I have not been here be- fore this afternoon. 18373. So far as I gather, you would agree with him that the warehouse movement and the office movement in the City has had an effect in substituting offices and warehouses for dwelling-houses, and overcrowding those dwelling-houses that remain?—I expect it has, but it has been equally serious on different sides of the City. You can only .arsrue as to what would have happened in Stepney by what has happened elsewhere. 18374. (Chairman.) But you can deal with the facts as they exist in Stepney ?—But the inflow and the out- flow is very fairly rapid, and I fancy the rise of rent would have cleared the way; that is to say, that the population would have fled before the rents at once, if it had not been for this peculiar position of things. 18375. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Assuming Mr. Solomon is right, that it is better business, and more advantageous for an owner to turn residential property into ware- house and office property, when you are within a mile of the Bank of England—df you assume that to be cor- rect, it would appear to me a very serious contributory cause of overcrowding?—It may be. The owner does one of two things. Either he lets his land go for ware- houses or else he builds enormous blocks off model dwell- ings seven or eight stories high and perhaps more, crowded together as close as possible, which I believe in the long run simply accentuates the evil. I believe they are tending to make Whitechapel unhealthy in order to -abate the pain of the disease, instead of going to the root of it. These blocks are built largely, 1 think, not merely as a matter of business, but also from a, philanthropic desire, but the total result is to put an enormous population on the ground, and to my mind that is merely giving water to a. dropsical patient. 18376. I do not want to be pedantic about accuracy it you can substantiate what you mean, but unless you are prepared to say it is a delusion to suppose that warehouses and factories and offices are largely taking xhe place oif residential property, I do not. see myself how you can escape from the conclusion that- tihat is a large contribution to the overcrowding of those houses that remain ?—It is only if the population is stationary, and it has become so here, because the Jewish population is peculiarly stationary. They are much less so now than they were seven or eight years ago. They are less afraid to travel to Tottenham or Leyt'on, or wherever it may be, but, as a whole, they cluster together, and therefore they have been prepared to pay anything rather than be driven out. I believe if it had been an ordinary English population they would probably have found it quite easy to fly. 18377. (Lord Bothschild.) You appear to think that the alien immigration is the sole cause of the overcrowding ? —It is the real cause. I cannot say what percentage it is. It is so large that in my view it is really the cause. 18378. You do not remember the East End long ago, when there was overcrowding before ?—No, but I know the population of Whitechapel was very large 30 or 40 years ago ; 40 years rather than 30 years, perhaps. 18379. You do not think that the conversion of resi- dential property into workshops and factories has affected the thing at all?—I think in a very small degree it has helped. 18380. (Mr. Vallance.) During the last 17 years there has been a considerable increase in the school accommo- dation provided by the School Board ?—An immense increase. 18381. And that increase hais, been more or less occa- sioned, or to some extent occasioned, by the possibility of overcrowding ?—Largely. 18382. If you get an overcrowded area it means an increased number of people, and an undue increase of children, and you have to provide accommodation for them ?—Certainly. 18383. You have to provide that accommodation v/ithin reach?—Certainly. 18384. And consequently you would demolish a few or many houses for the purpose of your accommodation ? —Certainly. 18385. So that the difficulty is accentuated at every turn, unless this question of overcrowding is relieved? —Certainly, but I would always gladly put a play- ground in place of buildings. I think our need in Whitechapel is playground space and air, rather than more accommodation. Mr. Charles Mansfield, Mansfield. 18386. (Lord Bothschild.) Are you the head teacher of _ the Settles Street Boiard School, Stepney?—Yes. 18387. You wish to give the Commission the history of the educational development and progress of that school from the year 1872, when it was first taken over by the London School Board, to the present day?—Yes. 18388. Perhaps you would give your evidence to* the Commission?—In June, 1872, the School Board for Lon- don took over the Phoenix Temperance Hall, Commercial Road, E., for educational purposes. The building ac- commodated 100 children. I may mention I have taken all these statistics from the log book of the school. I have been a master there for 30 years, and the district of the school comprises this area. In April, 1874, the scholars in attendance at the hall were transferred to- a new building now known as the "Settles Street School," built to*accommodate 1,170 scholars. In 1885 the new building was enlarged to the extent of 394 school places, making a total accommodation for 1,564 children. (2) The average attendance (B) at the Phoenix Temperance Hall was 94—essentially Christians. Status—very re- spectable. Note.—Some 70 scholars had formerly at- tended a good private school, the Wycliffe, Philpott called; -and Examined. Street, E. In 1875 the average attendance at the new school, Settles Street, was 580, composed of Christians ana Jews, Christians largely in the majority. Status— respectability fairly maintained. In 1881 the average attendance had increased to 1,037, 50 per cent, of these being of Jewish parentage, mostly children of resident Jews. There was no important change then in the posi- tion of the children so far as their parents were con- cerned socially. Then I give some extracts from Her Majesty's Inspector's reports, Mr. Renouf. In 1874— this was the period when the school was largely made up almost of an equal number of Christians and Jews—he says, " The examination of the elementary subjects was satisfactory." Then in 1877 he ©ays, "Highly satis- factory." Then in 1879 he says, "The school is thoroughly well conducted, as usual." Then in 1881 he says, " The school continues to be most admirably conducted." Then I deal with the period from 1881 to 1893. This period (1881-1892) was one of exceptional difficulty, arising from the steady and constantly in- creasing influx of the "foreign Jewish element." In 1885 the school premises were enlarged to satisfy the demand for places. Respectable Christian families left th'» district "——MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 677 18389. (Chairman). What caused them to leave the district?—It was the influx of the Jews. 18390. In 1885 P—From 1885 to 1887. 18391. Keep to 1885, because we know what has taken plaice afterwards?—In 1885 the school premises were enlarged to satisfy the demand for places. .Respectable Christian families left the district, leaving behind them a constantly decreasing number of more or less indigent Christians, surrounded with more than a corresponding influx of poor and distressed foreigners. As a result of this interchange in the population the increase in attenjdance only amounted to 52 during a period ex- tending over five years. In 1881 the attendance was 1,037, with 50 per cent, of Jewish children in attendance. In 1896 the numbers had only increased to 1,089, but of these 70 per cent, were of Jewish parentage. (1) In 1892-3 the total accommodation of the school was satis- factory ; the average attendance for the year amounted to 1,425, and of these 85 per cent, were Jewish children. Note.—-Table showing the composition of Jewish element in Boys' Department, March, 1893. Total number of "boys .(Jews and Christians) on the roll, 584. Number of Jewish boys on the roll, 499 (Boys' Department only). Of these : (a) Children born abroad, 105; (b) children born here of foreign parents, 324; (c) children born of native parents, 70. (2) Status of attendants—Much deteriorated. Note.—(1) Primarily as a result of the migration of the better class English workmen and thtv inioooning of the more or less helpless foreigner. (2) Secondly, the difficulties to be overcome—so far as the educational problem is concerned1—in the matter of language on the part of the foreign Jews and a lower average of mental capacity in the Jew and the Christian alike. (3) Education efficiency.—Less satisfactory as natural result. Then I refer to the Government Inspector's report. In 1885-6 Mr. Renouf says : " The condition of the school is less satisfactory than when last reported upon." Then Mr. Fitch in 1886-7 says; 41 The school is carried on under exceptional difficulties, owing to the poverty of the district and to the unusual number of foreign children." Then Mr. Fitdi again in 1889-1890 says: " The large number of children of foreign parentage in the school adds much to the labour of the teacher, and in proportion is the credit attaching to him for the success which has been; obtained." 18392. (jSir Kenelm Digby.) That is Sir Joshua Fitch, 1 suppose?—Yes. Then I deal with the third period, 1892 to 1902. During this period (1892-_90^1) the Settles Street (School maintained its full complement of scholars, composed mainly of Jewish children, and of these the large majority bom of foreign parents. In 1892-3 the Jews numbered 85 per cent, of the number on the roll. In 1898 the percentage increased to 92 per cent.. At the commencement of the current year—1902 —this statement was mad# up last year—they numbered no less than 97 per cent, of the total number on the roll. 18393. (Chairman.) What district is that?—Settles Street, Stepney. (Major E vans-Gordon.) It is in the Parliamentary division of Stepney, and it is on the eastern border of Whitechapel. (Chairman.) There have been no Christian inhabi- tants at all. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There are none left hiardly now there. That is typical of those schools in this neighbourhood. (Witness.) Out of 500 children on the books we have never an attendance of Christian children exceeding 20. I take the number of the Christians twice a week. 18394. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Substantially they are all Jews in that neighbourhood ?—They are. 18395. (Chairman.) Christian children living in that district would be bound to come to you ?—No, t'hey could go to Whitchapel School—St. Mary's. 18396. Do they, do you think ?—Yes, a great number of them. It is not so large a school as the Board School. It contains perhaps about 150 to 200 children, but it is attended really by Christians. 18397. The percentage of althy. 18410. Their attendance proves that they are fairly robust physically, nd your reports and your teaching seem to show that they are fairly robust intellectually ? —Quite so ; they are full of energy. 18411. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You say in 1872 your * experiences began in this district?—No. In 1872 the Phoenix Temperance Hall was opened. 18412. When did these respectable English people begin to move out of the district?—In 1885, and from 1887 to 1889. 18413. In the very early days there were very respect- able people living there ?—Yes, from 1881 to 1893 was the influx. 18414 Then the respectable English people went from that neighbourhood ?—Yes. 18415. They were respectable English people?—They were. 18416. Therefore it is not right to assume or to say that these people were of a degraded character who have been replaced by the foreign incomers, is it?—Not alto- gether. 18417. There were some bad charcters, but for the most part it was a fairly average neighbourhood ?—Quite so. 18418. (Mr. Yallance.) When you say that 97 per cent, of your children are the children of foreign parents, I suppose we may take it that that represents the propor- tion of the children living in that immediate neighbour- hood—the small area. Would that be the proportion of Jewish residents within that area?—As a rule the Jewish families are much larger than the Christian families. 18419. That all adds to the population, but the popu- lation has roughly that proportion ?—Yes. 18420. Do I understand rightly that these alien chil- dren have not the same brain power when they first come into the school as the others ?—A section of them. 18421. Can you put your finger on them and say they come from certain parts of Europe?-—I think the Rou- manian Jews and some -df the Polish Jews are the least intellectual. 18422. How do you find alien children stand with regard to examinations—do they stand fairly well?— Remarkably well. 18423. And as time goes on do they increase in brain power and power to acquire knowledge?—Yes, they do, rapidly. It is quite astonishing to see the rapidity with which they acquire information. 18424. They do not compare unfavourably with the English children?—Not at all; in fact, I have been perfectly astonished at the rapidity with which they can acquire information, and also the brain power they possess at so young an age. 18425. They are not very long in acquiring the English language?—No; I have known boys to be capable of reading before they knew the colloquial language. They come to school perfectly ignorant of English, but capable of reading. 18426. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do they learn the language quickly ?—Yes. 18427. I suppose when they first come some of them do not know it at all ?—No. 18428. You spoke about their health. Have you had any special trouble with any of these children with their eyes ? Have they had any affection of their eyes ?—That is the only thing in connection with them. Large num- bers of children suffer from defective sight. We do everything we can. I test the sight of every child, and I should think some 50 per cent, have not got perfect sight. 18429. That is not arising from any special form of disease ?—No. 18430. Do they wear glasses very much?—There is the difficulty. They are sent t© the doctor and to the hos- pital, and they are recommended glasses, and then they say they cannot buy them. It is a very serious matter ; in fact, I intend to bring it before the managers, because it seems to me they should be helped, 18 "^l. Do you find increasing at all ?—I think it is increasing. 18432. Do you know whether it arises from any par- ticular causes ?—Sometimes I think it is associated to some extent with overcrowding. They live in a darkened atmosphere', and they com© into a blaze of light, which affects the eyes. 18433. Whatever the cause is, you do find a large proportion of them short-sighted?—Yes. 18434. (Mr. Yallance.) Do you find them suffering from ophthalmic disease to any greater extent than the children of the English poor?—I should say so. When I had a school in the country near1 Southampton I do not remember seeing a boy with spectacles on in it. 18435. I do not mean spectacles, but it has been sug- gested that some of the children come into this country with ophthalmic disease upon them ?— 18436. (Chairman.) Is that when they first come, and when thev are in a poor condition, or later on ?—Later on. 18437. Are they born with this ophthalmic disease ?— I do not kjiow. 18438. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It is short sight, not disease ?—Yes. 18439. (Mr. Vallance.) My question is whether any of these children have been noticed to have any oph- thalmic disease, and whether, if ophthalmic disease pre- vails at all, it prevails to any larger extent with them than m the case of native children ?—I do* not think so. 18440. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you attribute this to any particular disease ? Have you been informed by any medical man that there wasi any disease, or that it was mere short-sightedness ?—They have not informed me, but I have generally understood it is simply short- sightedness. 18441. (Mr. Vallance.) You have not observed your- self any form of ophthalmic disease on them in the shape of sores?—No. 18442. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You would not know whether they were suffering from ophthalmic disease or whether there was anything of that kind causing short- sightedness. You would not know whether it w&s disease or not ?—If a boy had sore eyes, then I should know.INUTES OF EVIDENCE. •79 FORTY-FIRST DAY. Thursday, 2nd April, 1903, present : The Eight Hon. Lord James of Hereford {Chairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m,p. William Vallance, Esq. Mr. T. E. Williams, called; and Examined. 18443. (Chairman,) I believe.your occupation is that of Foreman .at the Wharf of Messrs. Low, Hart, and Co., of Leadenhall Street?—Yes. 18444. You live at Narrow Street, Limehouse?—That is so, 18445. And formerly you were a member of the Rat- cliff Vestry from 1894?—That is so. 18446. You were also a member of the District Board of Works, and you served on the Public Health Com- mittee ?—Yes. 18447. What part of this East End of London do you know particularly well?—You can take it from St. George's right down to the Burdett Road. 18448. That includes the great portion of Stepney?— Yes. I have lived in St. George's. 18449. {Major Evans-Gordon.) That is working from west to eas/t ?—Yes. 18450. North and south?—North and south. 18451. How far north does yotir experience go?— From the river right away to the north side of the Mile End Road. You can say practically the whole borough of Stepney. 18452. (Chairman.) There is what is called the Step- ney Working Men's Union Club, and you have held official positions in that club ?—Yes. 18453. You were a delegate, I believe, sent to the Federation of Working Men's Clubs?—Yets. 18454. You, I believe, have taken a considerable in- terest in this alien question?—I have, my Lord. 18455. First let us deal with the question of rents. Have rents risen in this part of the East End with which you are acquainted during the last 10 or 12 years ?—Oh, yes, they have risen, my Lord. 18456. To what cause do you attribute that raising of the rents?—Poverty. 18457. Poverty of whom?—-Poverty of the working classes; the people who occupy that class of house. 18458. Were those natives or aliens ?—Both. 18459. How did the poverty cause the raising of the rents ?—Because people having such a small wage would go into one room, so that instead of a house being occu- pied by one family, if there were six rooms, there would be six families living in that house; therefore the rents would rise accordingly. 18460. We have always had poor'people. How was it that this increase took place during the last 10 or 12 years ?—Because formerly the person who rented the house of the landlord used to receive the rent of the lodgers, but now instead of it being done in that way, the landlords themselves rent the houses out room by room. If not, they ask a larger rent of the tenant whom they let the house to than was formerly done. 18461. But what caused that change? If we have always had poor people, why was that change effected? —I thought I had made it clear. 18462. You have made clear the fact, but I want to know what caused the fact?—Let me give you a. per- sonal instance. I occupied a room in Ann Street., Rat- cliff—the first floor room. I paid 3s. 6d. for that room. There were two other rooms on that floor, and another lodger occupied those two other rooms, and paid 4s. 6d. for those two rooms, making the first floor 8s. a week. Mr. 2. E. The rent of that house was 12s. a week from the land- Williams. lord. Th© person who rented the house off the land- ;— lord had the whole of the ground floor for 4s. a< week. 2 April 1903. Now, the landlord would say to himself, those people can get 8s. for the first floor, why cannot I get 8s. for the ground floor? And instead of that house then %eing let at 12s. a week it would be let at 16s. 18463. I understand all that, but that does not touch my question. Does that result from the alien immi- grants coming here or not?—Not at all, in my opinion. 18464. What has caused it ? Why have the landlords taken the houses now which they diid not take for- merly?—'Because they never saw it, I suppose, in that light, and the house property has come into the hands of a different class of people, who have no interest in the well-being of the population at large. 18465. That is the landlords?—Yes. 18466. What is the difference of class ?—Tliey are com- posed of aliens and native born people. 18467. What has caused this difference of class, if it is not that the alien® have come in ?—I cannot tell you what it is'—I suppose it is the greed for wealth. 18468. There has always been the greed for wealth, has there not ■'?—I expect so, or else there would not be so much poverty. 18469. I do not understand in the main to what you attribute this change of system which has caused the rise of rents?—I do not think I can make my ideas any plainer. 18470. You have only stated the facts which have arisen. If you say you do not know what has caused the rise of rents, I daresay that is reasonable enough. You cannot give us any more, information, can you ?—-No, I cannot on that. 18471. Now, as to overcrowding, has there been any increase in overcrowding of late years?—'Not from the returns that we have got. 18472. Who are " we " ?—The Public Health Commit- tee of the Stepney Borough Council. For the last few- years people have constantly been coming to me per- sonally in the same way that they come to the Commis- sion teBing harrowing tales of overcrowding, and it is astonishing how inaccurate their statements have proved to be, with very few exceptions, when they have been in- vestigated by the inspectors. As, however, statements were still published as to the overcrowding in the East End, I worked hard toi get a survey made of the whole district, and as a result the Public Health Committee, of which I am a member, has* had a house-to-house sur- vey made for the purpose of ascertaining the extent of the overcrowding. It was commenced nine months ago, and it is quite up^to-date3 and it is still carried on. Knowing that it was no good making a survey in the daytime', these surveys were made on Saturdays and Sun- days in the early morning, having learned that on such days and hours, the foreign Jewish population would be certain to be at home. These surveys were made by our own sanitary inspectors, whose endeavour was to discover every possible case of overcrowding. I produce the statistics which they have collected, and they show, I think, m-ost plainly, that the extent of overcrowding in St. George's, with its large foreign population, has been enormously over-estimated, both as to the number of680 HOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. T. E, cases and the amount of overcrowding in each. I ibe- Williams. lieve these are the only statistics of overcrowding exist- — ing; the Census statistics, of course, do not pretend 2 April 1908. to go into the question, and they do not take into account the cubic space of the roioins. Then, I say, I have read the numerous charges made by witnesses to insanitary conditions in the East End, and my only wonder is that these people who seem to have such a detailed knowledge of nuisances and of overcrowding in the houses-of these foreigners, have not given notice of the same to the Public Health Committee of which, for example, the late Alderman was a member. There is nothing ea.sier than for persons to come here and make out a strong case against the foreigner of over- crowding and insanitatiion, but when he brings a specific case to us it is actually investigated, and, m I have mentioned, when such cases are reported they generally turn oust «to be mere rumours and inaccurate. I can give particulars of overcrowding other than foreign if desired. I am certain that from a sanitary point of view, as the law stands, there is very little overcrowding, though in the East End, as in many other parts' of Lon- don, and elsewhere, in a great many houses people live too close together from a moral point of view. There always has been this as long as I can remember. As a rule, overcrowding in our district, where it exists, consists of not more than two children o—Not in the Ratcliff Ward. 18546. Is that the Ward where there are a. great many .aliens or not?1—There are not so many there. It is a portion of the old Limehouse district. 18547. Was the dinner giv'en only to the very poor ?_■ Only to the very poor, as far as Ratcliff is concerned. 18548. (Mr. Vallance.) Were the foreigners sent to another district ?—No. 18549. (Chairman.) Will you go on with.: your state- ment. Then I deal with the success of foreigjners. I attribute the success of foreigners as shopkeepers to the trouble they take to please their customers, and to get what they want; the reverse is one of the manv reasons why the English shopkeepers have to complain that they cannot get the custom of the foreigners. 18550. (Mr. Vallance.) You are of opinion that poverty is the real cause of the increase) of rents in that district ?—Yes. 18551. Has poverty within your knowledge increased within the last 10 or 15 years in the East End ?_No I would not say that poverty had increased in the East End. MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 683 18552. In what way can youi attribute the increase of rents to poverty ?—Because a person getting a very low wage every penny that is spent itni rent is so much taken off some other necessaries of life; therefore a person will live in one room no matter what the rent of t-hat room would he. If it was only 6d. per week they would still live in a room. 18553. You mean they would reduce their expendi- ture by renting one room instead of a house ?—That is 'so. 18554. And for a house, say, of four rooms what rent would they have paid 20 years Ago ?—-I could not tell you what rent they would have paid to the original landlord, but the person who occupied the single room would then pay 2s. 6d. or 3s. 18555. I take it from you that the poverty of the dis- trict is the cause of the increase of rent, and the poverty- has operated in this way, that the people have Been so poor that tihey have had to> vacate the houses and be content with a room. Is that >so?—No, my contention is that the people who could afford to keep a house have moved out of the district—-that is my contention—and that other people—poorer people—have come in and taken the rooms. If they had not come in and taken the rooms, then part of S»t. George's would be de- populated. 18556. The Parish of St. George's is divided into cer- tain districts for inspection, I take it?—Yes. 18557. How many districts have you in St. George's for inspectorial purposes ?—I a.m not sure whether it is three. 18558* It is three or more?—We have three inspectors in St. George's. 18559. Do these schedules you have referred to repre- sent a district inhabited largely by foreigners ?-—Yes. 18560. I do not see in these schedules any large number of ome-room tenements, because that is where the overcrowding exists, is it not?—-Yes, we are only just beginning to get those returns out with regard to one-room tenements. (Chairman.) Where do the one-room tenements come in in the blocks, or are they separate buildings alto- gether ? (Mr. Vallance.) They are not necessarily in blocks ; it would be rather in houses now let in one-room or two-room tenements. (Chairman.) If a house is let one room to A and one room to B, are they called one-room tenements by virtue of that letting ? (Mr* Vallance.) Yes, and that is where one would expect to see the worst overcrowding. (Witness.) We are now very active under our new bye-laws in registering houses let in lodgings, and the returns we are getting in show the number of rooms in each house and the number of families in each house. (Chairman.) That strikes one as being a very low return of overcrowding. I suppose the absence of the one-roo'm tenements accounts for that low return ? 18561. (Mr. Vallance.) I wanted to get ait that. This Parish of St. George's in the East you admit is a con- gested district ?—Yes. 18562. And by congested district I mean there are too many people livftig within that area?—Yes. 18563. If it is a congested district how is it that you can produce schedules showing that there is scarcely an appreciable number of cases in which there is over- crowding?—'Because the law allows so many people to live in a certain space, and says it is not overcrowding. In this return,1 if you had the number of rooms you would find that every room nearly was occupied by a single family. (Chairman.) The witness's answer is that it is not overcrowding because it is not legal overcrowding, but the point you want to get at is why these returns show so much less overcrowding than one would expect in an admittedly overcrowded district. 18564. (Mr. Vallance.) There are two cases of single tenements, but not single room tenements. There are three rooms on a ground floor, man and wife and four children ; three rooims on the first floor, man and wife and three children. Those are not single-roomed tene- ments. Where are your single-room tenement® in St. George's, because you have a large number of them?— They do not Mr. T. E* Williams* They are in those returns somewhere. give it. (Chairman.) That is the whole point Mr. Vallance 2 April 1905. is on. We are not getting at the rest of /the over- --- crowding. 18565. (Mr. Vallance.) Generally you admit there overcrowding because you admit it is a congested dis- trict ?—Here is a case at 44, Winterton Street; ground floor, back room : mam and wite ; first floor, back room : man, wife and child ; first floor, front room: man and wife ; ground floor, front room : one man. 18566. Those are single room tenements?—Yes ; that is No. 44, Winterton Street. Then No. 56, Winterton Street; ground floor, front room: man and' wife; ground floor, back room : man and wife ; first floor, two rooms : man, wife and six children ; two children overcrowding in that house ; but in the first instance, No. 44, there is no overcrowding. 18567. Can you give the 'Commission any information as to the number of notices which within a given period have been served by your Public Health Committee upon persons causing overcrowding ?—1 could not very well, because I have not had time to get at them, but I should say since our new bye-laws have come inte operation there have been several, but I could not make any estimate. 18568. Is it not a fact that many hundreds of notices have been served by your Public Health Committee ?— For overcrowding? 18569. Yes ?—No, there have not been, for overcrowd- ing. 18570. You have no figures before you?—No, but I am positive there are not hundreds. 18571. This district to which you refer is a district inhabited by foreigners to a very large extent, is it not?—St. George's, do you mean? 18572. Yes?—Yes. # 18573. They are the parts of the parish that are scheduled in these lists you have referred to?—Yes ; in fact, nearly the whole of the inha/bitants are foreigners. 18574. You have spoken of a difference in class which has taken place in tie landlords. In what way dd you mean they have changed?—The property has changed hands. People perhaps have wanted to get away from London ; they have saved a bit, and they have sold their property, and sold it to the highest bidder, and the person who would give perhaps 50 per cent, more for the property than he really ought would' recoup him- self in his rents. 18575. Do you mean that the English landlord has retired and the foreign landlord has come in and been the highest bidder, and obtained the property?—That is just it. 18576. And then he has manipulated his property so as to bring in higher rents ?—Yes, that is just so. 18577. Are you not admitting that the alien has been a factor in that ?—Undoubtedly he has, but he has. been helped ; he has been assisted by the persons whoi have sold him their property at such an enormous price, and who have been willing to receive such an enormous' price for their property that they did not care what was going to become of it after it had left their hands. 18578. You have spoken about a change which has taken place in the district by reason of certain in- dustries having left, the shipping industry, and so forth. Have you any information at all as to the relative numbers who are now employed iat the London and St. Katharine's Docks to what there were 20 years ago, or anything of that sort?—I could not tell you, but there are very little compared with what there were when I came to London. I have worked on the water all my life. 18579. Is it not rather a fact that the labour at the clocks now has been organised to an extent that it was not formerly?—Not with regard to discharging the ships. That has always been casual work. 18580. But the casual labourers at the docks, those who obtain a few ^hours' work one day and another, not regular work, were not they largely imen living in the lodging houses ?—Oh, no, not necessarily. 18581. You are quite satisfied there has been a cer- tain reduction of labour there?—Yes, and not only that, but when a vessel comes to the London and St. Katha- 6144. 4 R 2684 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : SgApril 1903. Mr. T. E, rine's Docks the men are brought up from the Albert \Williams. Docks or from that neighbourhood, or from Tilbury, if there is not much work at Tilbury, to do the work. 18582. Then you speak of the sugar refineries having left the district. The sugar refiners were Germans chiefly, were they not?—Yes. 18583. And there were a considerable number of them ?—Yes. 18584. But is not that (many years anterior to this /large inflow of aliens into the district?—The last one, Martineau's, was moved a few years ago; in 1890, I believe it was. 18585. H;as there been a sugar house in Leman Street for 20 years ?—I could not go so far back as that. 18586. You may except Martineau's as being the last, but, with that exception, the withdrawal of the sugar industry can scarcely have affected either the rents or the overcrowding of late?—Of late, with the exception of Martineau's. 18587. {Major Evans-Gordon.) How many men did Martineau's employ ?—I could not tell yoxi. I know one e£ the men lived with me, and he went away when he Itad to move down to North Woolwich. 18588. (Mr. Vallance.) You think the question of high rents and overcrowding would be best dealt with by the nationalisation of property, and you think the muni- cipal aaitihority could do the work well and economi- cally ?—Yes. 18589. Do they do it now?—Yes, I should say so, with what they have got. 18590. You have three inspectors in St. George's?— Yes. 18591. When you say a representation has been made to the Borough Council for two more inspectors, do I understand that the Public Health Committee form- ally reported a recommendation to the Council for the appointment of two more?—:No ; the Public Health Committee refused to make the recommendation. Yesterday we were considering the estimates for the year, and in those estimates we tried to get the salary of two more inspectors added to those estimates. 18592. You did not expect to get it on the estimates, did you?—We did, iand we only lost it by about two votes. (Chairman.) Did a minority of the Public Health Committee try to get it and fail, or doe® the witness mean the Public Health Committee asked for two more inspectors to be appointed, and the whole council refused ? (Mr. Vallance:) If I understand rightly, the Public Health Committee refused to make a recommendation m favour of the appointment of two additional in- spectors. {Chairman.) When the witness said '' we tried," who ®re " we" ? 18593. (Mr. Vallance.) The members of the minority acting in their individual capacity ?—Yes. 18594. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have not the rates risen very much this year?—Yes, they have risen largely in some districts, but we cannot beautify our houses, and not expect to pay. 18595. You are interested in political matters down in Stepney, are you not ?—From a labour point of view. 18596. You belong to the advanced school somewhat, do you not ?—Yes. 18597. The Social Democratic Federation?—No, I have never belonged to them. 18598. Have you appeared on their platforms ?—01 ; yes; I would appear on anybody's. 18599. Not on mine?—Yes, on yours, if I thought it was necessary. 18600. That is a pleasure to come. With, regard to the 'Stepney Workmen's Union Club, what is the feeling of the members of that club with regard to this alien question, do you know at alii ?—They are evenly divided. 18601. Some are in favour, and some against ?—There are some who taka an extreme view. Sonne take the same view that I do myself, and there are others in between, who do not care. 18602. Do the members of that club live in Stepney itsielf?—Oh, yes. 18603. Most of them ?—Yes. There are a few living outside, but I do not suppose there are 10. 18604. You say that the evidence of Messrs. Silver, Barrett, and Belcher, and others did not give the Com- mission a true version of these affairs ?—Not from liiy point of view. 18605. Do I understand from that that you say what Messrs. Silver, Barrett "nd Belcher said was untrue? —Not necessarily untrue. 18606. With regard to Mr. Belcher is not he con- nected with a large estate of house property there?— I believe so. 18607. Would he not have as good, if not better, oppor- tunity than yourself of judging of the condition of those houses and the inhabitants ?—Undoubtedly he would ; but a biassed man cannot see. 18608. Why do you call him " biassed " ?—It is only my opinion. 18609. You are biassed one way, and he is biassed the other. Is that what you would say?—If you like. 18610. You said that landlords are letting direct to tenants these single rooms ?—No, I do not say so. 18611. I thought you said that formerly one house- holder used to sublet, and now the landlords are taking to the practice of letting the rooms direct to the tenant? —No, I did not say that. What I said was that the landlord would raise his rent equal to what the house was fetching to the tenant. 18612. What are these high prices that the tenant is getting from his lodgers due to ?—-It has always been the case. 18613. Have not the rents been rising very much lately ?—Yes, the houses, as a whole, but not the rooms. 18614. You say the rent of houses lias risen, because the householder was getting such high prices from this subletting. I understood you to say that the landlord says to himself, " Why should I not get what this man is getting " ?—Yes. 18615. Then the price that the landlord demands is regulated, you say, by the high price which the tenant was subletting the rooms for?—That is right. 18616. Why is the householder enabled to get such high prices for the rooms that he sublets ? What ha« been the cause of that?—The cause of it is that it is easier to bleed a person who is poor than to bleed a person who< is better off. 18617. But surely, lias not the supply of the rooms and the demand for them anything to do with it?— Not at all. 18618. That is to say, that the man would give the householder a high rent for a room even if he can get a cheaper room next door?—Oh, no. 18619. If cheap rooms are there, why does he not occupy them ?—There are no cheap rooms there. 18620. Would the rooms not be cheaper if there were not people to occupy them ?!—Yes, of course, 18621. Then it is due to the fact that the demand for the rooms is so> great that the people are able to ask almost any price for them. Is not that so ?—Yes, that is it. 18622. Then you said that even if the rooms were only worth sixpence a week the people would still live in a single room?—Yes. 18623. Does the Euglisih working man live in one room by preference ?—No; it depends on circumstances. 18624. What are the circumstances ?—Poverty. 18625. A fall in wages?—Yes ; low wages. 18626. Have wages fallen generally in that neigh- bourhood ?—Not at all. It has always been the case. 18627. Wages have not fallen?—No ; if anything, wages have advanced. 18628. How does that square with what you say about their living in these single rooms ?—It has always been the same. 18629. Has it not come under your personal notice (I am sure it has under mine), that people have given up their living room in order to pay the increased rent ? —The persons who have got the houses ; I have not the least doubt about that. I thought I made it clear that the landlord now is raising his rents equal to what the tenants used to get for the houses. 18630. Simply because there is such a demand for the rooms he can ask pretty well what he likes for them ? —No, there is not such a reason now. Only a few weeks ago I was passing through Arbour Street West^ and I i@ckonecl no less than live notices in five differentMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 685 •windows of rooms to let; so that the pressure is begin- ning to fall away, I am very pleased to say. . 18631. I am delighted to hear it?—I took particular notice of it after I passed the second one. r, 18632. With regard to these industries that have moved away, you say the docks have moved to» a. certain, extent, and the sugar lefining. Are there not any num- ber of Employments in the neighbourhood of the. City by reason of the markets, and so on, which make it desirable for people to live in that, neighbourhood ?—-Yes, but the -class of house in St. George's is not suitable for them. 18633. I am not talking about St. George's; I mean the whole borough of Stepney more than St. Georges in particular.' You say with regard to the foreigners being so disliked: " These poor class of English either cannot or will not think for themselves, and they let others who have their own axes to grind think for them." What •do you mean by " their own axes to grind " ?—You can take it politically if you like. 18634. I will take it politically. What does it mean in that respect ?—The foreigners have no votes; the Englishman, no matter how poor he is, if he is occupying a.dwelling, if it is only one room, has got a,vote, and if people can say, " The cause of your poverty is by reason of these aliens coming into thiis country; you vote for us and send us to Parliament, or on to the Borough Council, and we will see that, measures will Jbe passed, and Acts of Parliament will be passed, pre venting the foreigners coming into this country, and then in a very short time you will be living in an EL Dorado," they get their votes. 18635. Your argument is that such of us who have taken up this question have taken it up for purely apolitical reasons?—That is my impression. 18636. You say these people will not think for them -selves, and do not think for themselves?—That I an? sure of. 18637. Have you any axe of your own to grind of a political kind ?—I leave that to somebody else. 18638. But people of your, school of thought?—I do not mean you personally ?—That is rather a wide ques- tion for me to answer. As far as I. am personally con- cerned, I may say at once that the work I am engaged on is costing me at least 1.0s. a week out of my own pocket, •and I am only getting £2 a week, so if yon think I have •any axe to grind you are mistaken. 18639. Perhaps the work I am doing, too, costs a little money; but we will leave that out of consideration. You say, then, these people are easily led, and will not think for themselves. Are not endeavours made to tell them that they are downtrodden for other reasons besides the foreigners ?—Yes. 18640. Is not the capitalist sometimes used as a counterblast to the foreigner by a certain school of thought?—Yes. 18641. And the " monopolist," and so on ?—Yes. 18642. Those people also politically in that respect have their axes to grind ?—Undoubtedly they have. 18643. You say these people who sell their property are the people to blame. They sell it at 50 per cent, more than they ought to get for it, you say ?-—Let me give you an instance. 18644. How is that 50 per cent, obtained ? Why is 50 per cent, more given ? Who are these philanthropists who give 50 per cent, more than the' thing is worth ?— They are not philanthropists. 18645. What are they ?—The people who intend to gel :a return for their outlay. 18646. And up go the rents?—Yes. 18647. Would they give this 50 per cent, more than the value of the article unless there was a tremendous demand for it ?—No, it is because the property is so close to the City. 18648. That is what I call the demand for it?—Yes, that is it. 18649. There are various reasons for the demand, Kv one of them is the proximity to the City ?—Yes. 18650. And one of the others is. the number1 of people -who want accommodation near the City?—Yes, I should say so. 18651. Is it right, then, to say that the man sells the -thing for 50 per cent, more than it is worth if he find? people willing to give him the 50 per cent, more ?- - From a worldly point of view perhaps it is right, but j^r jg from a. moral and Christian point of view it is absolutely Williams. wrong, in my opinion. ' - 9 A*»ri1 TQOS 18652. If,the Borough Council came in according, to w v ...... your scheme of buying up all the honse property in the neighbourhood and letting it to. the working classes, what standard of value would they give ?—It would be according to the standard of ethics of those who dealt » in such property. 18653. The standard of ethics would be the guiding principle in the bargain i—I should say so. That is my' experience. 18654. With regard to the fair rent courts that you advocate, have you thought out how these fair rent courts are to be worked ?—From my standard, from my point of view, I should say it could be as easily worked as the sanitary laws are worked at. present. We say, or at least the Legislature say, that 300 cubic feet of air space' is necessary for an adult to live and sleep in. Then J should say for1 that cubic space of air a certain charge should be made, and in proportion according to. the extra ^pace that was. found. It is quite easy, to my mind, to do it where there is a will. jl8655. You would fix that by law?—I would fix that by law. 18656. Soi much for the cubic space ?—Yes. 18657. We will take a man who has got a house of four rooms, and he occupies two rooms, and lets out two, off perhaps lets out three. You would have a court step in between that man who has got the house and the rooms he lets out as to> 'tlhe prices1 he is to let those rooms out for?—Yes; that is, if they could not come to an amicable agreement between themselves. 18658. There would be always the right., if the man chose to give a, higher rent than the court would fix. * You would not interfere with private bargains ?—-Not at present. 18659. But when would you—at any time ?—After we had been educated up to that point. 18660. It would need some time to educate up to that point?—I am afraid it would. 18661. With regard to your figures, I see that you have examined 2,368 rooms ?—Yes. 18662. I find that, in the borough of Stepney there are 31,339 inhabited houses, and taking those at four rooms per house, which I think is» a. low estimate, that would show that there are 125,356 rooms, so that you have only examined, sa^. 3,000 of those ?—Up to the time that I got my evidence out. 18663. So that is a very small proportion of the whole ? —Yes. 18664. What I understand you to feel about it is that, although there is not illegal overcrowding of the rooms, still the housesi are overcrowded as a whole—.there are too many people in each house ?—Oh, yes, a lot. 18665. So that, although the law as it at present stands cannot say that is overcrowding, still 'there is what you call moral overcrowding in the houses ?■—Yes. 18666. I fancy that is really what is prevalent all over the district ?—Yest. 18667. You say in your statement: " These figures might, well be compared with the exaggerated statement. as to enormous overcrowding given by witnesses." To what particular witness's statement do you refer1 when you say that?—Councillor Belcher, for one, made some very exaggerated statements1 with regard to' the number of people that hei found. 18668. How do you know those statements to be exaggerated? What evidence have you got?—Similar statements have been made to me, and when I have investigated them I have found them to be exaggerated. 18669. We must stick to Coiuncillor Belcher. Have you checked Councillor Belcher'® particular statement with regard to' any particular one house that he men- tioned ?—No. 18670. Therefore you are unable to say whether his statement, was accurate or whether it was not?—Only from my knowledge of other statements. 18671. You think he is a. biassed witness, and he ha® made* these statements inaccurately?—Yes. 18672. That is a very serious thing to say about Councillor Belcher, but perhaps you will settle that between yourselves. I understand, generally speaking,686 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. T. E. you would be Against any restrictive law upon alien ItfiMmms.' immigration F—I am in favour' of the Bill just intro- ,.-u• duoed bv Sir Howard Vincent: in fact, it does not go far 2 April 190$. enOTlah jorme, 18673. How much further would you go ?—As far as aliens are concerned it goes far enough, but I would add something to it. 10674. What would you add?—That all criminals— that is, those who> have* been criminally prosecuted two gar three times—should be kept under lock and key, and so prevented from producing their species. 18675. We are dealing now with a. foreign population ? —I aim quite in accord with. Sir Howard "Vincent's Bill. y18676. As far as the criminal is concerned ?—Yes. * 18677. Would you exclude the diseased if you could ?— It would be according to what disease it was. " 13678. Take consumption ; would you keep that out ? —No<, I woul$ not. 18679. Yo'U would let that in ?—Yes. 18680. You would add to the consumptive population already here those consumptive people coming from abroad?—-I think that is hardly correct. 18681. Why not? If you have got five consumptive people in the place, and you bring in one from outside, you add to the consumptive population by one?—Yes. 18682. Would you do that, or not ?—No, I would not. 18683. You would not stop it?—No. 18684. You would let all come?—Yes. 18685. What disease would you* exclude?—Any dis- ease such as plague or smallpox. .18686. Those are excluded already, at least they are not 'allowed to land ?—Then I would not do anything else. . ( 18687. With regard to people coming to this country, you would not put any obligation on them to be phy- sically fit?—No. -18688. (Chairman.) Do you give that answer that you have just given on the ground of general national policy, or do you give it on the ground of abstract right and justice towards the aliens?—I do not follow you. 18689. You say you would admit everybody except those suffering from infectious diseases. Do you give that answer on the ground that you think it is an act of abstract justice to the foreigners to allow them txr come in or because you think it is politic in the in- terests of the country to let them come in ?—Absolute- justice. 18690. (Major EvansMordon.) You would let diseased people come in here?—Yes. 18691. You would keep the criminal out?—Yes. 18692. That is to say, you would keep the morally unfit out? but not the physically unfit out?—Yes. 18693. (Chairman.) Would you not keep the person with infectious disease out ?—Yes. 18694. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Plague?—-Yes. 18695. You do not call consumption an infectious dis- ease?—It is, but of a different class. 18696. Would you admit people suffering from con- tagious and infectious disease of the eye?—Ya». 18697. Would you let them come in?—Yes. 18698. You would not mind that spreading, evoii if it endangered sight ?—It would not spread. 18699. Why should not it spread the same as plague ? It is much more infectious ?—It is not to my reading. 18700. That is a medical question?—Yes. 18701. Then we will not discuss it. You would not keep out anybody except the criminal classes?—No. 18702. You would let all the others come in?—Yes. 18703. To an unlimited extent?—To an unlimited; extent. 18704. Would you deliberately admit the man who is physically incapable of earning a living?—Yes. 18705. And keep him?—Yes. 18706. You do not think that foreign nations ought to look after their own people in that position ?—I can- not understand what you mean by a foreign nation. 18707. You mean the brotherhood of man?—Yes, it is no use talking to me of foreign nations. Everybody is> my brother. It is not a bit of use for you to talk to me about foreigners. 18708. Then I need not trouble my brother any more P —Thank you. 18709. (Chairman.) You have a good many brothers and sisters ?—I hope so, and I hope to meet a great many of them when I go to my last home. Mr. W. A. Nugent, called; and Examined. Mr. W. A. 18710. (Chairman.) You are the Headmaster of Betts Nugent. Street School, St. George's-in-the-East ? -Yes. 18711. Is that a Board School?—Yes. 18712. And a school that I supose receives generally the children in the neighbourhood ?—Yes, the children in the neighlbourhood generally. 18713. You have divided the children you have got in that school into two classes, namely, Christian and Jewish children?—Yes. 18714. First, you have 180 Jewish children?—Yes. 18715. Those are boys?—All boys, and about the-same number of girls. 18716. Your evidence only deals with the boys ?—I have gathered evidence of the girls and infante m well. 18717. At present we will keep to the boys. You have 180 Jewish boys and 127 Christian boys?—Yes. 18718. So that you have got 307 boys in the school ?—• Yes.' 18719. Of the 180 Jewish 'boys, there were 110 born abroad?—.Sixty-one per cent. 18720. And 64 born in England, but of foreign parents ?—Yes. 18721. We may put those together. That would be 174 who are either aliens or born of alien parents ?—■ Yes.. 18722. Leaving only the extra six who were Jews born in England?—Yes. 18723. How is it that you had so few Jewis? Do you know the ron why there are only six born in England of native parents ?—The school is situated really in the centre of the district where the aliens naturally come. The English Jew really lives on the northern side of Commercial Road, and the school is situated on' th®- south side of Commercial Road. 18724. There must be a great gathering of aliens round: this school?—Quite so. 18725. So it stands that in this district to which your school applies, you have 174 out of 307 alien Jewis'h children ?—Alien Jewish children. 18726. So it really is more than 'half the school?— Oh, yes, more than half the school. 18727. This is focussing these aliens very much. I should like you to give me, if you can, the definition of the area which your school relates to ?—I should say we get no child from any district extending more than a quarter of a mile away from the school. 18728. But you can give me the streets in whic.i it exists. Is this the very centre of Stepney, or wherej is this ?—'lit is close to the London Docks. It is th© western end of Stepney borough, within a quarter of an. hour's walk of the Tower of London, and bordered on the south side by the London Docks, and on the north side by Commercial Road. 18729. Speaking 'generally, should you consider this the most, I was going to say, alien district that there is ?—It is right in the centre of the alien district, and it is only in the last four or five years that the school has developed the alien element. When the school was opened in 1884 there were no Jewish children at all attending, and it is within the last ten years that the growth has come on. 18730. I suppose you would attribute that to the im- migration from abroad, and not to any change o.f popu- lation otherwise than by immigration?—It has occurred from this reason, that the better class of people (there' is no question about that) have gone from St. George's.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 687 They have found more suitable houses in the (boroughs outside the district. 18731. But even if that had been so, according to your figures here, the loss has been supplied by the alien immigrant, because you have only six native born Jewis ? —That is so. 18732. So it must have come from the aliens entirely P —Yes. 18733. Now take the percentages of attendances. Of the entire school for the educational year ending July, 1902, the percentage of attendance was 93 per cent P— Yes. 18734. Of these, the Jewish scholars—-we will call them .aliens-—attendance was 96 per cent. P—Yes. 18735. They -were more attentive than the Christians ? —Yes, certainly. 18736. In these Christians have you any aliens?— Yes, I have three aliens among the Christians. 18737. Then you. have got out the percentage of .attendances for the last week of the educational year. Why do you select that one week?—I took it as the "last week of the closing of the year, so> as to show the difference in attendance in one week only. 18738. It is better to take the last year rather than ►one week?—I took the year, and then I took this last week. 18739. Why is there a difference between the Jewish scholars' 98 per cent, and the Christian scholars' 80 per cent. ?—I suppose the Christian scholars were be- ginning to feel the effects of the holidays, and thought they might take a day or half a day before the schools closed. That is a usual thing. 18740. Then you refer to medals gained. Is that for perfect attendance?—Yes. 18741. That is very much the same thing ?—I should have said the J ewish. scholars lost a number of medals •owing to the Jewish holidays. The school, at an early ^period of the school year, was not granted Jewish holi- da}^s, so they lost their medals on that ground. 18742. I see the Jewish scholars have 16 and the Christian scholars 16 ?—Yes. 18743. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You are one of the recognised Jewish schools ?—Yes. 18744. (Chairman.) It has an increase of Jewish scholars by virtue of its position among the alien popu- lation ?—Certainly. 18745. Now as to the cleanliness of these children, what have you to say?—They are certainly not the dirtiest children in the schools. I have Christian children whom I have more frequently had to- send to the lavatory to wash themselves than the foreigners. With regard to the foreigners, I find that if you tell them they must come clean, they do come clean. 18746. Supposing a family arrives in the country, *nd the aliens come to the school and time passes. Do you find, as time passes, that the child improves in his cleanliness or nob?—Yes, certainly they improve. I have found one case in particular where a child dete- riorated, but that was really not the fault of the child. It. was the fault of the person in change of the child. The child, I may say, now has gone onto America, and the woman who was in charge of him was too poor to look after the child. The child came well nourished, and after a period of about three months he degenerated —I should say .almost to a state of starvation, but even- tually the parents were found, and the child was sent •away to America. 18747. That is an exceptional case ?—Yes. 18748. Speaking generally, I suppose you do see •signs that when a family first arrives there is great poverty?—No, I cannot say there is great poverty. 18749. Comparative poverty ?—Comparative, perhaps. 18750. As time passes do you see improvement in their condition, and in that way the child's condition improves?—Yes, they improve, there is no question about that; ibut, of course, they are of the very poorest type. We have the very poorest type of the alien at the schools. 18751. Do you see that their parents appear to be careful in the arrangement of such things as boots being polished, and small things of that kind?—The boy® do that themselves. In the ordinary school line in the morning I have gone round and objected to a boy having dirty boots. I found the next morning that boy would come even if he has only rubbed his boots with a piece of cloth; he will have cleaned the mud away and the dirt from the boots. 18752. How do they bear themselves, as regards their conduct generally, with respect to manners?—Their manners are extremely good, and their conduct highly to be commended. They .are very tractable children, very loyal to their teachers, and most obedient. 18753. And as to intelligence, what do you say ?-— With regard to intelligence, they are quite the equal of the ordinary English scholars. I will take my last school, an ordinary working-class school in East London, in the parish of Bromley. These foreign children com- pare very favourably indeed ; in fact, I should say their* is a higher order of intelligence among them than among the ordinary working-class population of Bromley. These children seem to have a. natural love of learning. 18754. Do they enter into the- games of the school ? —Most heartily. In my school football team eight of the boys are foreigners out of the eleven. ^ 18755. Eight of your football eleven are foreigners ?— Yes, all aliens. There are no English-born Jews play- ing in the team. 18756. You have o-nly six in the whole school"?—Yes. They are all aliens, and they play the game fairly, and they are very anxious to learn to play the game squarely. They readily adapt themselves to all the English games—cricket, football, and swimimdng. 18757. How do they compare ;as to their settling down in this country with English tendencies—for in- stance, loyalty ?—The boys seem to one toi be very proud to believe that they will become English; If you speak to. the boys their general idea is that once they are here they mean to try and be English in everything. In the matter of English history they are most attentive, and they seem highly delighted to listen to English history lessons. In fact, at my last examination of one class a fortnight ago the entry in my book, which will go to the London School Board, was : " The history of this class is in a highly creditable condition, and it is a very remarkable fact that the foreign children show even a better knowledge of English history than English children themselves." 18758. When the boys first attend the school, do yon find some of them comparatively ignorant of the English language?—They cannot speak a word. I have had them land one day and in school the next. 18759. What course is pursued?—They go into an English class. If they are big hoys I put them with big boys, and they very quickly adapt themselves to the manners of the class, and they very quickly learn the language, .and I may say that of the boys who were admitted in September last, and were placed in the lowest class in the school, 15 have been promoted and five of them have gone into the third class already. 18760. When they first come, as you say, knowing no English, do you let them take their course, orHo yon use an interpreter at all %—No, we have no interpreter, but the teajcher uses a blackboard very largely, and. illustrates his lesson with .the chalk. 18761. That is very elementary ?—Yes ; but they art not long before they acquire a knowledge of English. 18762. And they are able to learn our lessons ?—Yes. 18763. How far do you find they are successful in competitions ?—At the last final examination of the school year ending July, 1902, the top boy of each class after competitive examination, without exception, was a foreign boy. The boy that took the top prize-in the school was a foreigner. 18764. I gather on the whole that you think favour- ably of the alien children both in conduct, intelligence, cleanliness, and haibit altogether ?—I do, really ; and I think they compare very favourably with the ordinary East London child. I have had an experience of 30 years of East London children. I was born in East London myself, and I naturally know the East London child very well. 18765. You have some figures supplied you with regard to the females ?—The figures for the females are comparatively the same as with regard to the boys. They have about 180 alien children and the same num- ber of Christian children. The relation of the school numbers will be the same practically as with regard Mr.. W. A. Nugent. 2 April im688 JIOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : vi/.'lf. A. to the boys. • The infant school, which is a larger itugmb. school, with accommodation for 100 more, has, we will say, 100 more aliens, but naturally the infant school 2 mprii. 1,903. children, though born of alien parents, are English born. They are all young children, whose parents have been here a matter of, say, four or five years. 18766. They are aliens by parentage?—Yes, by parentage. 18-767. "Have you any information to give, even from hearsay,^ as to the habits of these children?—Both the mistresses say the children are very tractable, and veiy ioytball? —When they started, of course, that is in thex first season, I am afraid they did not make a very good show ? —But now. 18835. They are beginning to show form ?—But I do not think the child has the same stamina that the English child has. I do not think he has the same physical strength as the British child. We go down before the British child as regards football. 18836. (Lord Bothschild.) You do not think these children will become a discredit to the country ?—Cer- tainly not. I think they will become a credit. I think •—I will put it provisionally—if their parents take the same interest in their welfare after leaving school as they do while attending school. 18837. You say the parents take a genuine interest in having their children well educated?—Yes, un- doubtedly. 18838. And their attendance is remarkably high?— It is. 18839. Can you tell the Commission something about the cleanliness of these children? You say in your statement: " The children of foreign parents in my school are as clean as the children in other schools, but the quality of cleanliness depends a great deal on the master in charge ; if he insists on a high stanc ard he gets it, as the foreign children readily take to habits of cleanliness " ?—That is perfectly true. 18840. Your opinion is that the cleanliness of the children depends entirely on the master of the school P —I do not think you can say entirely. There are other circumstances. There is the possibility in some of the homes that they have not soap. 18841. You say that your children take to all games, and if they had 'had the same privileges they would possibly be equally qualified, and you also say you are proud of your lads, and have good reason to be proud of them 'Yes. 18842. I suppose you are not in a position to give the Commission any account of their parents ?—No, I can- not say anything about their parents^ except that they take an abnormal interest in their children's education. There is no doubt about these people taking a very great interest in everything that concerns them ; their cloth- ing they look after ; they look after their cleanliness, and they are most particular about their attendance at school. ^ 18843. You do not know anything about the condi- tion of the parents at all' ?—No, I do not. 18844. Would you say, judging from the children, that the parents' condition was a fairly good one ? Are the children we'll fed?—I think the children are cer- tainly well fed. They look remarkably well. Perhaps you would like to see photographs of them. I have brought these photographs in order that you may judge of their cleanliness. (Producing some photographs.) I think they are splendid boys. 18845. I suppose they never attend in Jewish holi- days ?—Never. Ours is a Jewish school. We close on the Jewish holidays. 18846. For religious instruction they go to their own schools ?—No, we give them Bible instruction and stories from the Old Testament only, and then for their Hebrew they go to their own Hebrew schools. 18847. For their Hebrew they go> to the Chedarim ?— Yes. 18848. Do you find their attendance at the Chedarim interferes much with you ?—I know nothing about that. It does not interfere with me. 18849. Have the children a tired appearance when they come to you?—No. 18850. (Chairman.) You teach them from trie Old Testament ?—-Yes. 18851. You are a Christian.yourself %—Yes, an} English churchman. 4 S690 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGKATION : Mr, F. H. 18852. How do you manage to draw the distinction. Butcher... between your views on religion and the views of tne > As—Hebrew, children ?—We do not draw any distinction at * April 1903. gji We simply teach them stories that have some moral. 18853. You take care to make them neutral as regards doctrine ?—Yes, and if a man cannot keep it neutral he has to stoj) teaching, and somebody has to be put there who can. 18854. You can manage it so that no practical diffi- culty arises ?—There has never been any difficulty at all. 18855. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you know the hours that are kept in the Chedarim now?—I do not. 18856. You do not know whether complaints were formerly made of the hours being too long in the Chedarim ?—No, I know nothing about it. "181857. You saw no signs of fatigue?—No, not the slightest. 18858. What do you mean when you say through no fault of theit own they have not the same privileges ? —1 was accounting for my boys not comparing favour- ably with the British boys in sport. You know what English sjfjort is—these children have not had the same advantages in learning cricket, swimming, football, and,- • pastimes of that sort. Consequently they do not excel. 18859. They begin pretty young here, and do pretty well, and you would say they are superior intellectually,. if not quite physically?—I am afraid you are running; away with the wrong idea. My comparison has been alL the time between the British child of St. George's in the East and the Jewish child. 18860. I am talking of that?—I am not talking of" the rural children at all. 18861. It is the only thing you can compare—the- children in this neighbourhood. You would say, which. I am disposed to entirely agree with, that these children- that you are dealing with now are superior intellect- ually, quicker, and more diligent, and show more appli- cation, and are more regular in their attendances ?— Undoubtedly. 18862. They are easier to deal with?—Yes. 18863. And intellectually superior, if not quite so- strong physically as the others?—Yes, undoubtedly. 18864. That is your general result?—Yes. 18865. Good educational material, you would call it P —Yes. Mr. Joseph W. P. Rawd] W. P. 18866. (Lord Rothschild.) Are you the head master of Bawden. lhe Deal street Board School ?—Yes. 18867. You have prepared a statement for the infor- mationof the Commission, and perhaps you had better read it to us?—Yes. The Deal Street Board School, Mile End New Town, having on the roll at present 335 Jewish boys out of a total of 340, was opened in Feb- ruary, 1896. During the first year 252 boy® were ad- mitted. Of these about 100 we're foreigners quite ignorant of the English language ; 80 were admitted from a neighbouring infant department. Not one of those lads was placed in the classi above Standard I. Yet now there are—this refers to last year, because I made the statement out last year—25 boys, including 11 foreigners, working in Standard YII; 18 boys, in- cluding 6 foreigners, working in Standard Ex YII. 18868. (^Chairman.) Which is your highest standard? —Ex. YII. ; several of these boys worked through the seven standards in 5^ years, the remainder taking 6£ to do the .seven years' work. This work would have been completed in five and six years respectively; the extra months are due to the lengthening of the school year by the London School Board to establish an uniform educational year for all the Board schools. Lest it may be thought that the work suffered in quality in conse- quence of this repeated advance, I may state here that I have, during a period of over 30 years, never seen better work than has been done by these boys. The average of these classes is as follows : —Ex. VII., 12*4 years; Standard VII., 12*5 years ; Standard VI., 12*4 years. Last year (that would be 1901) one lad gained a Junior County Council Scholarship. The school had been opened then about five years. This year (that is, 1902), six boys, three of whom were foreign-born, sat, and all^paissed the Preliminary Examination. The final result is not yet known. Five boys 'also sat for the Shakespeare Walk Scholarship. Result not yet pub- lished. We have no special facilities1 for preparing lads for these scholarships as exist in many schools* Whatever the result obtained it will be largely due to the intelligence of the boys, and to their continued application to study. Occasionally the older lads visit public places of interest, such as Kew Gardens, The Tower of London, and the various Museums. They regard these visits not merely as a pleasant outing, but taking an intelligent interest in what they see, freely asking questions of those in charge of them. I am 'fequeptL^ told by the ladies who kindly accompany our lads on these visits, that it is a pleasure to go with them, they are so intelligent and appreciative. The curator of the Whitechapel Museum informs me that some of our lads often visit the museum, and converse with her on objects that interest them. The foreign Jewish boys are excellent workers in school. Under the guidance of a capable teacher they apply themselves to their lessons in a manner worthy of the highest com- mendation. His Majesty's Inspector of Schools, who xas quite new to the district, noted this quality in the lads, and stated in his report last year, " that, not the least interesting feature was the. painstaking efforts of the.boys in all their lessons." Another point worthy ", called ; and Examined. of note is the almost perfect regularity of attendance. The percentage of average attendance for the past year was 97*5. I attribute this largely to the great interest taken by the parents in the education of their children. On leaving school the boys are carefully looked after by the managers. Many are apprenticed by the Jewish Board of Guardians to the various trades, and become = skilled workers. As Deal Street was so recently opened none of my old boys have yet grown to manhood, but several are giving every satisfaction to their employers . as capable apprentices, and I doubt not will ultimately develop into intelligent, capable, and patriotic English citizens, giving of their best to their adopted country, and becoming, as Lord Kitchener recently said of the Boers, a valuable asset to the Empire. That was., written under the excitement of the peace declaration last year, but still I adhere to it in my cooler moments. During the past six years two pupil teachers, both- foreign-born, have served an apprenticeship here; one * is now a student at King's College, has passed the Inter- mediate Examination for B. Sc., and will, in all proba- bility, obtain the full degree next year. The other has ^ matriculated in the 1st Division of London University,, has obtained »a First Class King's Scholarship, -and after ~ the summer vacation will take up his residence as a atudent at the Borough Road College, Isleworth. 18869. What age would he be ?—About 18. 18870. Where does he go after leaving you?—One • went to King's College. 18871. At what age did he go to King's College?— About 18. 18872. He does not remain in your school till that . age ?—As a pupil teacher. 18873. Are they aliens ?—-Both aliens. The ability and knowledge of both of these youths will eventually be at the disposal of their adopted country. Jewish boys soon become Anglicised, and cease to be foreigners. My first four classes contain 175 boys; of these 108 ; were born in England, and 67 were born abroad. The parents of 170 of these lads were born abroad, so that practically the whole of these children are of foreign parentage. Notwithstanding this1 fact, the lads have become thoroughly English. They have acquired our language. They take a keen and intelligent interest in all that concerns the welfare of our country. During the late war no English followed the course of events more closely than they did. They were most en- thusiastic over our successes, and they regretted our reverses. One could not but feel that their rejoicings over the relief of the besieged towns -and the proclama- tion of peace were as sincere as they were hearty. The Coronation of King Edward VII. is the crowning of their King ; they are proud to be considered English boySi They are not lacking in benevolence. I do nott think I need go into that. They enter heartily into our English games. Swimming, cricket and football are* all adopted with enthusiasm. Ninety boys voluntarily go to the baths every week to learn to> swim. The absence of open spaces in the East End is a great draw- back to the proper development of cricket and football. .[minutes op evidence. 691 "The boy® make the most of the limited space in our .school playground, and will often go -to the Tower Moat > and even to Victoria Park, to indulge in these ever- favourite games. Matny of our lads are- members of the - Jewis-h Lads Brigade, an admirable movement for de- veloping the physique, for cultivating habits of obedi- -ence and self restraint, and for fostering a spirit of true patriotism. One of our old boys, foreign born, volun- teered for the front in the late war, and faithfully -served his adopted country. In conclusion, I am firmly convinced that the Jewish lads who pass through our school will grow up to be intelligent, industrious, tem- perate, and law-abiding citizens, and I think will add to 'the wealth and stability of the British Empire* 18874. Can you give uis> a/ny proportionate number of • aliens and native born at present in the school ?—'This was last year. I should say they would be about the r«ame. 18875. You have given us evidence here during the first year, that would be in 1896, and you gave us the proportion. Your proportion related to boys working .in certain standards now, as regards the whole?—Yes. 18876. You have only three Christian boys al to- gether ?—That is all. 18877. What is the proportion of .the population around your school ?—There are a good many Christians -■at the north of my school. Immediately at the back there is a block of buildings occupied by Christians. 18878. What becomes of those Christians' children 2 --—They go to the National Schools generally; the "Church schools. 18879. Is it not what Lord Rothschild was trying to -obtain from another witness, that these Jewish children do keep to the schools which are ear-marked as Jewish schools, which yours is?!—They certainly prefer to do so, undoubtedly. 18880. They know that they will have nothing offen- sive, as it were, toi their religion said, and, therefore, their .parents have confidence in sending them?—I do f iLot know that that is the motive. I suppose they feel - that they are among their own people. 18881. With their own feelings and sentimen/ts ?— Yes. 18882. Do the Christian parents for that reason take their children away into another direction?—I should I have had very few applications from Mr. J. W. P- Bawden. not say so. them. 18883. Why do not the Christian children come to 2 April 1903. your school?-—I cannot say for an absolute certainty -- why not. They have never applied for admission there. Those who do come remain. I have three who have been with me some yearn That is three out of about 300. 18884. (Mr. Vallance.) Have you any denominational schools in your district ?—Yes. They prefer to go there, I suppose. 18885. (Chairman.) They prefer to go to the schools of their own denomination, and the Jewish parents treat your school as one they prefer sending their children to ?—Yes. ' 18886. (Lord Rothschild.) It is probably the fact that the Christian children are educated in the older schools that existed before?—Yes. 18887. The Jewish children codne to the newest schools, and the Christian people send theirs to the oldest schools?—Yes. 18888. There is no racial hatred between them?— ' Not at all 18889. {Chairman.) How do you manage about three Christian children. Have you the Cowper-Temple clause ?—Yes. 18890. But what do you do with the three Christian children? Have you a teacher for them?—No, they are with the Jewish boys. You are referring to religious instruction ? 18801. Yes ?—That is very easily managed. The Jewish boys are separated on certain days in the week from Christian children. 18892. That is the course you do take ?—That is the course we take. There is-no religious difficulty in the school, and never has been. 18893. Do you know whether any Jews in any number go to the Christian schools ?—Oh, yes, they do consider- ably, just to the north of us. 18894. And, of course, consideration is shown to them in the Christian schools?—'Special1 teaching is arranged for them there. 18895. {Major Evans-Gordon.) And they go to the voluntary schools?—Yes. Adjourned for a short time. Mr. Barnett Abrahams, called; and Examined. 10806. (Lord Hothschild.) You are a Jew and a : naturalised British subject ?—Yes. 18807. You were bom in Russian Poland, and you * came over here 22 years iagoi with £20 in your pocket ?_■ ' Yes. 18898. You remained here several weeks before yoii « obtained employment ?—Yes. 18609. Perhaps you would read the rest of your state- ment?—After being here for several weeks without em- ployment I was advised toi go to a Jewish firm to leam the rubber trade. I went there and obtained employ- ment, my wages being rather low at first, but just « enough to keep me. I lived on the business premises, and w«as certainly ignorant of the trade. My employer taught it me. For all practical purposes I was in the t position of an apprentice, but instead of me paying my master a premium he paid me ia small amount of wages. * This ist really the position of the raw foreigners who • come oiver here now. You can compare their position with that of the English apprentice, and you will find that the only difference is that the one is called an « apprentice iand the other isi described as a poor sweated « creature. I was 12 months with this Jewish firm, but time became slack and work scarce. I then went to Messrs. B. Birnbauan, who at that time had their premises in Broiad Street, City, and who are on© of the biggest firms in the rubber trade. This firm was founded by a foreign Jew. I worked here for a period of five years, and it was hero that I gained , when I started for myself, I only employed three hands; now I employ 60. Some of my hands are English and others foreign, in either case being Jews and Christians. I do not work on Saturday, and as our Christian hands do not work on Sunday they only have five days? labour a week, but I pay them full wages. My hands always work in a friendly way together. I have placed on the market several patents, which are going satisfactorily. Six of my hands get from £2 10s. to £3 per week, and work from 8 a.m. to 9 p.m., with two hours' interval for1 meals. The female hands earn from 14s. to £1 2s. 6d. per week, according to their ability, their hours being one hour a day less than the men. The rest of my hands earn on an average 25s. per week, including; many who know very little of the trade. From my experience in my own workshop I find that the foreign workpeople have just as good food as the English workpeople. I have supplemented my own knowledge by inquiries from my foreman, who> has been with me for 15 years among the foreign^and Christian hands. I find that the foreigners learn clean habits after they have been in this country for a short time, and I have never seen the filthy habits that are attributed to these people by certain witnesses who have already given evidence. I regret to have noted that the lo wer class English people have got into the habit of thinking that everything foreign is filthy and something to despise. I at times. have had asi learners several foreigners who have just come over, and I always find that they take a greater interest in their work, and certainly pick up the trade quicker than English apprentices. I might mention 4 S 2692 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : tMr. B, that the foreign workpeople are always at their work Abrahams. to time, and they are a remarkable race for their J sobriety. Many yeiars ago the waterproof trade in this Apm 191)a. country was practically nothing, and had it remained as it was at that time England would have been flooded with foreign rubber goods. There is now a large trade in waterproof garment® done in this country, and it is entirely due to the foreign settlers here who have in- vested their capital in it. Quite 75 per cent, of the rubber manufacturers in this country came from factories started and owned by foreigners, while on the other hand quite 75 per cent, of the labour employed by these foreigners is English. There is practically no importa- tion of (waterproofs from the Continent, our competitor® from abroad not being able to compete with the home- made article. There is a large export trade in water- proof -goods from this country, and England is really the .centre of trade for the whole world. Among other article? I manufacture are waterproof garments, all de- scriptions of cycling garments, pneumatic tyre repairing outfits, rubber solution, etc. I here give a list of a few of the firms that have been, started and are owned by foreign Jews:—Mandleburgs, Ltd., Pendleton, Man- chesterj Ferguson Shiers, Manchester; Mistovski, Man- chester*; Barnett Cohen, Manchester; Frankstein, Man- chester; Frankleburg, Ltd., Manchester; Gotliffe, Ltd., Manchester; Birnbaum, Ltd., London; Slazengers, Ltd., London; etc., etc. In the same building as my- self there is a, firm of tailors named Firmin, Ltd*, who authorise me to say that, having in vain tried 'to obtain British labour at a fair wage, they have been compelled to employ all foreigners, as they find 'that the work is turned out as well and as good as if it was made by British liands. They go> as far as to say that it would be impossible to rely on British labour being turned out in time, and as Government work often is required by a certain date they have to use special care to see that every attention is paid to this point. My own experi- ence is that a British workman is very seldom fit toi start work on Monday, unless he be a teetotaler, after having the Sunday to himself. Firmin, Ltd., state that with the aid of foreign labour they can always rely on the work being turned out in time and satisfactorily. In tlie event of the aliens being stopped from coming to this country they would be serious losers. 13900. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) Where do you come from in Russia?—Russia Poland; a little place called Ratz. A place like Liverpool here in England. 18901. In Poland?—Yes. 18902. How old were you when you came here?—■ Twentv years, as near as possible. 18903. Why did you come?—I came firstly because there was not enough employment—there were no> fac- tories or anything like there are here—and I came to better my position. .,18004. Do you employ any of what we call greeners when they arrive here ?—Not lately. 18905. Have you employed them ?—Years ago. 18906. What wages did they get when you employed them first ?—Commencing at 8s. and going up to 15s. 18907., How long did that last ?—About three months, till they got a little knowledge, and then they went higher and higher. 18908. Where was your shop when you did employ greeners ?—In Great Garden Street. 18900. You do not employ them now ?—No. 18910. Bo I understand you to say there is no sweating among these greeners who come over ?—No. 18911. Not in your trade, but in other trades ?—I do not see anything of it particularly. With regard to sweating, there is a certain amount of sweating going on even in Christian firmsi. Sometimes we are obliged to work aji^tle later if the Government want certain things to be done, but we are not, as a rule, at work late. 18912. Those things are not what we call sweating. Have you come across people who are systematically working for long hours at low wages under bad condi- tions ?-—No. 18913. There is a material difference between a man working under those conditions and a man who may be called an apprentice ?—When a greener comes over here, if he does not; know the trade, he is an apprentice. 18914. Have you seen any of the evidence that has been given here?—I have read it in the papers. 18915. Bid you observe the evidence of one of , the* factory inspectors, Mr. Evans?—I do not remember exactly. 18916. I understand you to say that the waterproof trade in this country has been created by foreigners ?— Created by improvements in the trade. Putting it more plainly, 20 years ago a waterproof garment was made like a sack, with no shape, and no gentleman would buy it, 'but the foreigners came over here and tried every year to produce a waterproof to fit, as any other coat would, therefore the waterproof coat came into fashion with ladies and gentlemen, and have been made an millions. 18917. That is a matter as regards the cut of the gar- ment ?—'The cut and style of the cloth. 18918. But the actual process of waterproofing—the rubbering, or whatever it is—was done in England be- fore the foreigners came here?—Very little. 18919. With regard to these firms that you mention, in your statement, are there many English firms ais well as these?—There are. 18920. Large numbers ?—Not such large numbers as the foreigners. 18921. The foreigners have got the largest share of this particular business ?—They have got the business in their hands. 18922. Do you go so far as to say that had it not been for the foreigners this trade would not have existed in England ?—I do not say it would not have existed, bust it would not have made such a large improvement. 18923. Why should you say that?—Because, as a rule, you will find in every trade the foreigner has got more go* in him in every business. 18924. In every trade ?—Yes, I can see in every trade •by their improvements they have created a large busi- ness. 18925. You say that English trade then should be in the hands of foreigners—it would 'be better?—-I do not say it should be. 18926. But you. say if it were, it would be better - for it?—'They have improved it. 18927. How many English people do you employ?— Half and half. 18828. Yo-u employ altogether 60?—Yes. 18929. And 30 of those are English ?—I could not say exactly, but as near as possible half and half. 18930. What wages do the English people get ? Do- they get the same as the others?—Yes. 18931. What are the average wages all over?—The men earn as much as £2 10s. and £3 a week. They know the business entirely. 18932. What is that for—what sort of work are they doing for that money?—Making garments entirely. 18933. Cutting and making ?—Not cutting, simply making. Sticking together. 18934. Not the actual waterproofing?—No. 18935. Are the foreigners employed at higher wages . than the English?—I do not think so. 18936. They are about the same?—Yes. If a foreigner or an Englishman comes into the factory and asks for work, we see what he can make. He tries a . few things, and we can judge of his ability for the work, and we pay him accordingly. 18937. That is the making of the things ?—Yes. 18938. But where is the actual thing waterproofed ?--- In Manchester or in Leeds, also by a majority of foreigners, 18939. The actual waterproofing of the cloth?—The cloth comes raw from Bradford, and it gets proofed— some in London, and some in Manchester. 18940. The proofing is a separate business?—Yes. . 18941. What you do is making the garments ?—Yes. 18942. These people are in a sense tailors?-—Yes. 18943. English.and foreign both?—Yes. 18944. {Mr. Lyttelton.) How long ago was it that you came over?—About 22 years ago. 18945. You can remember the place you cam6 from, . I suppose^ quite well?-—I mentioned before it was froan a little town in Poland. 18946. Did you have to have any papers then at all before you left home?—No.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 693 1§0A7. Would there have been any difficulty, supposing jpou required them, in getting a certificate of character from the Raibbi ?—No difficulty ait all. 1894$. I put it from the Rabbi of your synagogue ?— No, if. I, had to get it I should go . to the Chief Rabbi, aaadualso one of the magisitrates. In every little town there is >a magistrate. He knows practically everybody in the little town. I would have to go to him and ask tain for a paper to say I am an honest and straight- forward man. Buit it was not necessary at the time. 18[949. No, I am aware of that, but if it was necessary yo^ think it would have been quiite easy then to get it ? —Yes. 18950. And would be quite easy now?—Yes. 18951. How did you get across the frontier ?—In the Regular way. I do not remember exactly now, because it is 23 years ago, but it wais the same system as there is now. 18952. Did you come with a number of others ?—Yes. 18953. Even then you required some papers, did not you, to get across the frontier ?—I fbelieve I had some papers to show, if necessary, buit at that time there was no necessity. They were not so particular as to ask. 18954. You do not know what they require now?— Xcpuldnot say. 18955. I want to ask your view. From your point of view,. would. you wish no others to come to England from ypur old country., except people of depenit charac- ter ?—I would prefer to see people come over here who wofuld be useful to the country and better it. 18956. Would you prefer that people w'ho came here should be of good character?—Yes. 18957. From your point of view, would you be willing, if; feasible, fhat steps should be taken so that only people of good character should come ?—Steps taken which would be feasible and which would not be aib'le to do much harm by stopping them. 18958. (Sir Kenebn Digby.) Have you any reason to suppose that many people of bad character come?—• Mr. B- Lately we are sorry to hear it. Abrahams. 18959. I mean come in the same way that you came? g April 1903 —I do not know of any. I am not in the habit of mixing J:_J with people who are not exactly pure and good people. I am not in the haibit of going amongst them. 18960. Do you know many people who bore bad charac- ters in the country from which you came originally coming here to escape from their own country because of their bad character?—No. 18961. You have not known that in your own expe- rience ?—No. 18962. Do you know at all what kind of wages the greeners get now ? Would they be more than they were when you first came?—I could not really say, because I have been suited with hands in my place for the last 15 or 20 years. I am not in the habit of changing, be- cause I am quite satisfied. The real evidence I wish to give to this Commission is to prove that in some manu- factures which are created by foreigners 75 per cent, of English Christian labourers get the benefit. 18963. That is to say, that your view is that the trade is either created or at all events improved by foreign- ers ?—Yes. 18964. That the persons employed are partly foreign- ers and partly English, and to the extent to which the English are employed, they get the benefit by the growth or development of the trade?—Yes. 18965. Would you apply thait to other trades?—Yes, the cap trade, the clothing and fur trade, and mantles particularly. They always came from Germany, and now they cannot compete with us. I also mention to you that I opened two branches in Africa, where I have two sons, and we also do the export business to Cape Town and Johannesburg. 18966. Dou know many foreigners who have got on as well as yourself ?—Many have got on better than I have. Mr.. Morris Cohen, called; and Examined. 18967. (Lord Rothschild.) Were you formerly an alien but are ybu now,' and have you been for the last 17 years a naturalised British subject?—Yes. 18968. Are you a mantle manufacturer ?—Yes. I came over to this country in the year 1877. I was then a gentleman's tailor, Jiaving a slight knowledge of ladies' tailoring* Six months after my arrival I went to work at Hope Bros., Ludgate HilL After being there about three years I commenced taking outdoor work from them, and also from other firms, in 1880 my attention was drawn to an advertisement by Messrs. David Hum- phreys, Jewin Crescent, for a tailor for ladies' jackets. I answered the, advertisement, and as a, result was given materials, which I proceeded to cut and make up into samples from my own designs, arid from which I ob- tained further orders. Shortly after this Messrs. Stem and Evans, 14, Old Change, also advertised for a ladies' tailor. I applied1 for, and was given their work. On each occasion I was the only one to apply for the work, there being at the time no English ladies' tailors. All, the ladies' tailoring (i.e., the making of ladies' tailor- inade garments) was then dene abroad, principally in <^many and France. It was about this time several aliens came over *o England, who had been employed abroad as ladies' tailors, but were compelled to seek work here in the gentlemen's tailoring, as ladies' tailor- ing was still practically unknown here. I was fortunate in finding out these people, whom, I then employed, and for three years I had no competitors ; then .some of my employees started) far themselves, and the trade has fdnce been increasing annually. In 1886 I started jnanufacturing my own goods, and supplied the same firms for whom I had previously been working, and am to-day doing business with some of the firms I started -with. 22 years (ago. 1 now employ (in addition to out- door workers) upwards of 180 persons indoors—about 50 of these are English Christians, about 50 English Jews, and the remainder are aliens who do the principal parts of the Work, such as basting and fitting, and which I cannot set done by English workers. These English, workpeople have all learned their trade from the original foreign workmen who brought the new manufacture into ikis qoumtry. As regards wages, a capable man earns from 35s. to 50s. per weel?, and women 20s. to 30s. The hours are those allowed "by the Factory Act. During the last 10 years I have further developed the trade by introducing embroidery on my goods, again success! ui±y competing with the German manufacturers. As a result, the draper and mantle shops now ticket their jackets, etc., " English tailor macie." When I first started there were m the north and south of London ladies' jackets being produced by dressmakers, and made by women. These goods were not tailor made, and were sold to the public at 10s. to 12s. each. The Germans, who were exporting all of the better class goods sold over here, had commenced to encroach upon tire English manufacture of the cheaper class of goods. I am confident that in starting ladies' tailoring in this country, I not only saved the manufacture of this Class of cheaper good's, but inaugurated successful competi- tion with Germany in the manufacture of the tailor- made, and better/class of goods. There are now pro- bably not less than 20,000 persons, both alien and English, working amicably together in England at this trade introduced by alien tailors. The silk mantle trade has always been in the hands of the English, but I claim the introduction of the manufacture of cloth jackets, capes, etc., which formerly were entirely im- ported from Germany. So largely has the demand for this class of goods increased that in spite of the 20,Q0C workers in England, there are still upwards of 50,000 persons employed in the trade in Germany, solely to supply the English market. The return to the authori- ties of one firm alone (Craft and Levine, of Berlin), showed a nett profit last year exceeding £40,000 on English trading alone. Provided a sufficient quantity of workers could be obtained in England (and I fre- quently advertise for them in the Jewish papers without result, and the native market is absolutely emptied), it would still take very many years to get the whole of the trade from Germany, and end the practice of im- porting German-made ladies' garments. As it is, at certain times of the year, owing to pressure of work and scarcity of hands, my customers, against their inclina- tion, have frequently to send their orders to Germany. By the introduction of the trade to England other inr dustries have benefited, as we use, as far as possible, materials of English manufacture, whilst the mantle* made abroad are generally of foreign materials. Accord- ing to my experience, an English tailor is unfitted for Mr. M. Cohen.694 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Jtfk ' M. fancy needlework such as is required for the mantle trade, Qoken *. and cannot, with a few isolated exceptions, get a living < v .''tt— ^ut of it. For example, the English tailor is not to be 2 April 1903. relied upon to do six days' work per week, whereas we " ^aai rely on foreign tailors doing six days' work. If required I could furnish the names of City firms who would corroborate my statements, and who themselves hiave helped to snatch part of the mantle trade from abroad by employing aliens—indeed, there are very few firms in the trade, either in City or West End, who could possibly carry on their business without foreign labour. 18969. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) About this ladies' tailor- made garment trade, isi the German proportion of that increasing or diminishing ?—Diminishing,. 18970. Are the workers here aliens or British?— Part British and part aliens. In my own factory there are about 50 Christians and .50 British Jews, and the remainder are aliens. 18971. Have you any difficulty about Sunday work? —No; we do not work on Saturdays. 18972. Or Sundays?—We work on Sundays, but not the Christians. 18973. The Christians do not work on Saturdays ?— No. 18974. You are closed altogether on Saturdays?—Yes, the factory is closed entirely. 18975. And the Jews work on Sundays?—Ye®. 18976. Do you employ much protected labour of women and young persons?—Oh, yes. .. 18977. Are they chiefly English About half. 18978. Half Jewesses?—Half Jewesses and half Christians. 18979. Is there any distinction in the character of their work ?—The aliens put the garment together, such as fitting and Ibasting, and the finishing part goes into the women's hands, part of whom are Jewesses and part British. 18980. Is most of it done by hand labour?—All the sewing is done by machinery, 'but the preparing and the pressing hass to be done by hand, and the cutting. The machsin.es all go by gas power. 18981. Are they paid by time or piece work?—The majority are regular hands. . 18982, They are paid by time?—It is practically week work all the year round. 18983. Is yours a season trade ?—It is a season trade. We are more busy ait certain times of the year, cer- tainly; but there are certain 'hands whom yoiu are bound to pay all the year round, otherwise we cannot get them. ^ 18^84. Can you give us an idea of the wages ?—A tailor, I am speaking of men, will get from 35si. to 50s. 18985. Those are day wages P—Weekly wages, regular. 18986. They are paid by time, and not by piece ?— They are paid by time. They get paid all the year round, work or no work; they get paid for holidays and all. , ,18987. Have you seen this trade develop very con- siderably ?-—Yes, very considerably. 18988; (Mr. Vallance.) This trade which you have in- creased to this extent is clap able of almost indefinite ex- pansion if you could only get the labour?—Yes. 18.989. Still, it is a seasonal trade now?'—It used to l>e more,so perhaps; than now. We used to have two seaisons, but now we have practically almost four. The fashions change so rapidly that a lady requires more than two garments im a year, as a rule. 18990. With your present amount of labour available, do you find there are seasons when certain numbers are out of employment?—Oh, yes; say in the middle of the half year, Christmas time, before we start making •amples. It is in every trade the same. 18991. If it is a seasonal trade, and you have not in the season a sufficient amount of labour, how is it that out Of the season you cannot make good the deficiency to some extent by the labour you have got Out of the neason, on account of it being a fashion trade, we are not in a position to make* stock. We have to make samples and sell by samples. We supply the whole sale. 18992. Supposing you had a large immigration of persons able to carry on this trade, and do this work, what would be the result out of season ?—The result would be the trade would be done in this country instead of it being done abroad. Those people would be able to earn more money in the season to keep them- selves during the slack season, wbcih is not a very long period. 18993. From your experience would it lead to any acuteness in the condition of the unemployed during certain seasons ?—No-. I do not think there is a trade in the world where there is work all the year round regularly. Every trade is slack some part of the year; more slack than in others. One time of the year the de- mand is not so great ast in> others* 18994. Do the workpeople acquire this trade when they come, or have they acquired it before they camel —At the time when I came to this country ? 18996._ No, now?—The majority of them bring the trade with them. They know it. We could not pos sibly take the time to train them. Time is too valuable in trade, especially in a season trade. 18996. {Major Evans-'Gordon.) You say that before that time there was no ladies' tailoring done in this country at all?—No. 18997. None whatever?—No; the jackets were made of a cheap character, and not done by tailors. 18998. Were not riding habits, and that sort of thing, made in this country?—I do not include those. The riding habit is practically a garment made by gentle- men's tailors. It is so plain as to require a man's tailor to do it. A ladies' tailor ait the present time cannot make a lady's habit. 18999. You say you started in 1886 manufacturing your own goods. Do you mean by that cutting them up and making the articles, not manufacturing the cloth ?—No, we do not manufacture the cloth. Formerly I used to take out cloth from other people, and used to provide labour only. 19000. Now, you buy the cloth ?—I make the garment right out. I 'buy the cloth and trimmings, and manu- facture iand sell. 19001. The made-up garment ?—Yes. 19002. You talk about thei hours allowed by the Factory Act. Of course the hours allowed by the Fac- tory Act. can only apply to women and young persons ? —Yes. 19003. They do not apply to the men ?—No. 19004. What hlours do the men work ?—In the busy time they will work till 9, and sometimes till half-past 9, when the holidays are on. In the Jewish holidays,, which come mi the busy time of October and September, four weeks, there are two days a week which they have to lose. 19005. (Chairman.) What *ime do> they begin in the morning?—8 o'clock. 19006. Do they have two hours' interval ?—Yes. To make up that time during the holidays they have to work an hour longer if we are busy. If the trade is not extraordinarily busy they leave off earlier. 19007. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You claim to 'have in- troduced this trade into the country ?—-Yes, I do. 19008. What about a firm like Hitchcock and Wililiiamis ?—I should say they started manufacturing the clasis of goods they are manufacturing; some years later than I did. 19009. Ladies' mantles and tailoring ?—-I am not speaking of the cheap clothes. I am speaking of the better class. I should say they started their factory six years later, or even eight years later, than I did. 19010. You say -there are few firms in the trade wha could possibly carry on their business without foreign labour ?—1There are not very many in the trade. 19011. Are you aware how many foreigners are em- ployed by Messrs. Hitchcock and Williams-. They are in a large way, are they not?—Yes, they are. 19012. How many foreigners do you think tihey em- ploy ; do you know ?—I should say they have now 50 to 60, 19013. I have got a letter, I think from the firm, to say they have now in all 10 foreign tailors and three assistants—13 altogether ?—Perhaps at the present time, but what was if 12 months ago,? 19014. This is for the paist 12 months ?—I supplyMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 695 Messrs. Hitchcock and Williams myself. Perhaps it did ?iot pay thetm to keep oai that factory. It pays them 2>dbtj3rto buy the goods. r 10015. But they have got a factory in full swing ?— Not for that class of -goods. Perhaps) it piays them better to buy from such a man as myself and others. Wei employ alien labour. 19016. I shall get the superintendent of that factory to tell us exactly how things sit and?—Very well. {Chairman.) What is the point between you and the witness? {Major Evans-Gordon.) The witness says there are few firms in the day or, two, or three or four days. They do some- times come back and say they want work. 19150. Do you do that for them ?—No, we do not. do that at all. They do it themselves. 19151. Have you an agent who assists them in getting an Employment ?—-No, we have no such agent. Ipl52. But, as a matter of fact, you say those people who are represented iby that 500 odd would, within four or five days, of themselves find employment?—Yes. 19153; Now take those who would not ?—173 had no means ,and no trade. 19154. What becomes of them ?—As a rule, after a few d'ays they would go 'amongst their own country people, and they would assist them to learn a trade. 19155. I want to know,what, as a matter of. fact,, happens. Do those people remain on your hands for any length of time ?—They remain longer than any Others. 19156. How long do they remain ?—Our institution allows them to remain fourteen days. 19157. You are not allowed to keep them after four- teen days?—No.' 19158. I suppose there are cases in which you have to assist them in some way after the fourteen days have expired?—There are some exceptional cases. We do not deal with every immigrant alike. One is a little bit better, and the other is a little bit lower ; so that they are not all alike. 19159., Ifo you get those people absorbedvwithin, say, fourteen days, or within some reasonable time. Are those people, as a matter of fact, absorbed, and do they find work ?—Yes, they do ; unskilled labour to begin with. , 19160. (Mr. Lyttelton.) How do you know if you dc niot, ,follow them afterwards ?-4-Because< they do. not arrive without a bundle or parcel* and when they come and take the bundle I ask them, " What are you going tc do?" Therefore we are in touch with them. 19161. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are there many of these people who after the 14 days have expired, or at some subsequent time, come back to you or to any of the societies with which you are in connection for assist- ance oil the ground that they cannot get on, and are there any number who return to you in any way ?— No, they do not return, only if they cannot exist. In a certain time if they cannot exist in London they may go round to the Jewish Board of Guardians and say: " I cannot exist here ; I would like to. go back." 19162. Weknow there are a certain number who do: that?—Yes. 19163. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Yours is only a temporary shelter, and you are only supposed to assist them when they first come P—Yes, on their arrival. 19JL64. (Sir Kenelm Digby,) ^'Now; let us go, to the popple. ,^'(>1 J0^1 .^ay hiave some - means 771 v ■■■•.* 19165. And they, had about £900 ?—Yes, at :the rate of- 28s. per head.L- , -<> ...... : 19166. Those you-class as people having means ?-—Yes. 19167. If a man has £1 or a little over £1 you Con- sider he has means?—Yes, he can exist till he finds work. . . • 19168. But-he, of course, has to begin- s n a greener. He is a typical.- greener?—Not exactly. If he is a. mechanic from, a.; to-wn, and if he^,.conies. intor a workshop he .will^egirv^OeWprkj^and/the. others.^villexplain-to him ^l^at .priceis h$ has got -get yeryft,quickly, because t-h^y ^ay, " Ifj-yQu; are ggingt>tp, ^rork h%re you ^yillf want 5';,!.a, .day." , .. 7ji 19169. What would be the < work to which they would naturally gravitate and most probably take up?—To give you a sample, Ibelieve in the Bremen tickets, as- a rule the trades are well described. There (are their name, their Christian name and. surname, single or married, birthplace, nationality, and occupation. 19170. That is the ticket' the man gets at Bremen ?— This is from Bremen to London, Some days, we get 60? or 80 people. As a. rule j. I collect thotee tickets and L have their names and occupations to enter in our regis- ter. Here is a man named Abraham Sorand-fSo> and, he went to his cousin at 17, Pell Street, and he was described as a, trader or dealer. Here. is another one- who went to No; 18; and' he was a carpenter. 19171. That gives you some indication of the trade? they go to ?—Yes. 19172. Are there many bootmakers who co-me ?—I. can give you the exact number during last year of our inmates.. There were 137 bootmakers during last year- out qf 1,290. ; 19173. Have you any other figures ?—Carpenters, 140 tailors and cutters, the largest number, 379. 19174. Those particulars would be taken from; their tickets?—Yes. 19175. (Mr. Vallance.) As I understand last year yoii. had 26,796 immigrants into the port of London ?—Yes. 19176. Your agents met those boats ?—Yes. 19177. 546 vessels ?—Yes. 19178. Then, deducting the transmigrants to the States and to Africa, we get the figure of 21,586 ?—Yes. 19179. And from those you must deduct 2,270, about, which you have been speaking?—Yes. 19180. From that you must deduct 977, who were- lodged at the expense of the shipping companies, and. that brings us to 1,293—— . 19181. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What about those who* are lodged v at the expense of the shipping companies ?—- Those are the 977. 19182. Where are they lodged-1—not with you ?—Yes7, they are lodged with us. 19183. And paid for by the shipping companies ?—Yes.. 19184. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Beca.use they are going, on ?—Yes. 19185. (Mr. Vallance.) These 1,293 you keep in touch with until you see them on their feet fairly ?:—In some- cases. 19186. With reference to the remainder, there are 9,000 unaccounted for. Where would they go?—I say- in my statement: u But the total also included a large- number who gave their nominal destination as the United Kingdom, but who immediately, or shortly after- wards, proceeded to extra European ports." 10187. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How do you know that?—From my own personal observation. I have- takeai an interest in this matter for the last five years. 19188. There are no absolute statistics ?—I do not refer to any statistics. I would suggest you call a wit- ness from the Great Western Railway Company, and a.sk 'him how many aliens do proceed weekly from their station to Liverpool. Two years ago I wrote a letter to the " East London Observer," and this refers to the- month of July, 1900: "1,500 emigrants arrived in the- port of London, 316 left the week of their arrival for America, having paid to English steamship- companies,, say 10 guineas ■;& head." ., f 19189. (Mr* ? •: Tallance.), Is it correct, as has been stated, by a previous witness, that, the whole of these 21,000, although noit,admitted1 into the shelter, would he regis- tered by you?—Yes. 19190. What does registration mean? >Does it mean anything more than entering in your register, or does, it mean following them?—Not following them; obI^ entering. 191^1 v Do you take exception to what has been said about families being dumped down in certain localities ? —Yes, I entirely disagree with it. 19192. You are disposed to discount it?—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ' 6$9 19193;fc&ilelm jDig%.)!JNot only t& discount it, l>ut you. do not agree with it ?—No. ; 19194: (Mr:' ¥allance.).Y'0U are hot able to say, 'because you do not follow them ?•—We have followed them, and we have the destination. If- a wife comes to a husband, •certainly we have no power to tell this man : " You have not got sufficient accommodation for your wife and ^children here," only where w;e are responsible and where we lodge such cases, I Can safely say that that is not the ♦ease; as^has been stated. We lodge them in: proper lodging-houses registered under the County Council Acts and in housefe visited by their inspectors. 19195. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You said to Mr. Vallance that as r&gaft|s- the 21,000 people, all that yota did - was to y our agents to the addresses which they produce. 19197. Do you mean the 19,000 have been taken by your agents to their destination P—About. Here are .samples oif boats which arrived this week (producing -documents). 19198. You have not only to deal with the 12,000, Ibut with the 19,000 as well ?—In the first instance we .give them protection. That is the greatest charity which you can give to a stranger. On his arrival he is protected. * He is met on the boat and taken to the -shelter. If he has a heavy bundle he can leave it there. <)i^ agent- takes him/toiiis friends, and if he brought £5 or £10 or only^l6sv in his pocket, he knows it i? ®afe until w;e hand him over to his friends. 19199. There are no two opinions about your institii- "tion. Everyone has a very high opinion of the work which is being done by the shelter, but 'what- I want to get at is, does the shelter after this, with the exception of those who are absolutely stranded for the time: being, and who receive temporary accommodation here, know .•anything about the balance oif the 19,000 ? 19200. (Chairman.) You said in answer toi Mr. Lyttel- tonthat they do nothing with them after seeing them to their destination ?—Yes, my Lord. 19201. (Mr. allance.) Have you at any time made -any special investigation for a limited period into the Tesults of the ; immigration into your district ?—Yes. 1920-2. Would you say when it was and what the re- sult was ^ years ago,;when we delivered a.man "to a certain address; in the, first instance, especially when they had got a, new agent I liked to< satisfy myself as to "how this agent acted to these immigrants. I went there and said, " Has so*and-so been delivered to you?" •" Yes,' says he. "Is he still here?" " No, he is gone.'' " Where has he gone ?" " He left yesterday or the da^ "before." "Where to?" " America.," arid so on. 19203. Yoru wfeie satisfied of the result. ?—Yes, oeeaiuse later on I find him in the returns of the boat which he left by. 19204. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Before we leave that may I ask one question now ? Are you prepared to say that your association follows up every alien immigrant who arrives; in London from the. moment he arrives to the moment when he leaves the country or settles per- manently in this country ?—No. . 19205. You are not?—No. 19206. (Mr, Vallance.) Your Shelter is a voluntary institution,-is it not ?—Yes. 19207. You have been connected with it how long?— ?Six and a half years. 19208. Are the arrangements of that voluntary insti- tution, in vour judgment, adequate to the necessities of -the ease, having regard to the present stream of immigra- tion ?—Yes, I have an unlimited power. I can accom- modate any number, and our committee pays. 19209. You have no desire to see legislation assisting you at all, or expanding your arrangements P^I believe Mr. j. every improvement is good. Samper. 19210:. H^eyou-in^^y^r'namd an:yjarmngeMeri^-which 2 April 1903* would be, in your judgment^ an -improvement?—I have not made up my mind. • 19211. Do you think the institution is more effective as a voluntary institution than it would be as a sub- sidised institution ?—Oh, yes. 19&12. With reference to the question of passports, those who come from a recognised port in Russia are in possession of papers, are ;they not?—I would rather not deal with that. 19213. Is-it, =not the. fact that it is illegal for a. person to leave Russia, without papers ? —Certainly it is illegal. 19214i Then some arrive in this country with papers in their possession and others without them ?—If they are smuggled over the frontier they do not require any papers. 19215. Aie not those who sre smuggled over the frontier as good in character as the others?—Perhaps better. . 19216. Then the requirement of a passport or papers would be no security in regard to character ?—Not at all. 19217. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to the question of 'passports, would it not'be easier for1 a man who had committed sbme offence in Russia to get. away without a passport than to get one ?—That depends through what port, he would like to travel, or how he would like to travel. 19218. It does not depend on that at all. I take two men, the man who is a man of good behaviour and the man who is a ,man of bad behaviour. Both are anxious to leave the country. Do you mean to tell me that the man of good behaviour would not get a passport easier than the man of bad behaviour?—No, he would not be- ;? able to get it easier—certainly not. 19219. Why ?—Because he could not', He may be the respectaiWe.man of the city, and if his brother has not fulfilled military service he could not get a passport. You have been there, and have; studied this question on the spot. It is not a matter of respectability; it is a matter of shillings and penoe. ' 1 1§220. That is not the case at all. Where as man has run away from military service the Government levy a fine of 300 roubles on his relations, and when that fine is paid the. man is ait liberty to get a passport ?—But sup- posing the man has not got 300 roubles. Respectability does not depend upon money. 19221. There you are bringing in one of the exact objections that. I say. The man is a " verbrecher " (law- breaker) in the eyes of the Russian law. I am now talking; of the man who* is not a law-breaker ?—A respect- able man? 19222. Yes, who has got nothing of the kind -against him. He goes and applies for a. passport and he gets it? —Do you. know the time it takes before he ca,n get a passport ? 19223. I know those difficulties, but he gets the pass- port eventually ?—Yes, certainly. 19224. Do you mean to tell me that a man who has stolen a horse or committed a forgery would get a pass- port as oasilv as a man who had not done those things ?— You may reckon that he would get a passport as easily asi the other man. One would go to the Government ; and the other might get a passport in another way. He might carry one in his pocket before lie commits the crime. 19225. But the man who goes to the authorities and gets a legal passport?—I do> not know what is legal. 19226. You know what is legal and what is fraudulent. A man may get a fraudulent passport in a fraudulent way, but the man who has a. good character would get his passport easier than the man who has broken the law or a man who is running away from justice ?—This is a ques- tion in England, and not in, Russia. 19227. But it applies in both cases ?—Only in England. 19228. That- is easy enough to say, but, as a matter of fact, the man who is of good character gets, it easier than the bad character ?—The man of bad char acter will never get it in his name. 19229. Returning to these figures, you say of the 6144. 4 T 2700 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr J. people who pass through your Shelter, 522 were Somper. absolutely without means ?—Yes. A - 19230. With regard to the others, how many of the P 1903. thousands who do not actually pass through the Shelter can you definitely account for?—Those who do not pass through the Shelter I cannot account for at all. 19251. Nor do you know what their means are ?—No. 19232. Nor do you know what their medical condicion is ?—The medical condition is good. That I do know. 19233. Of all?—Yes. 19234. The whole of the 19,000 who come?—Yes. I may tell you that in the last six years (the Board of Trade statistics will hear out my statement) not one person was detained on arrival because he was not fit. 19235. We have not the right to> detain them on arrival ?-—The medical authority would not pass the boat. 19236. If they are suffering from either plague, cholera, or small-pox, but nothing else?—Any disease. If Dr. Williams at Graveseind goes out with the launch to meet any boat, he holloas oust, " All well ? and if the captain only says " No " he at once goes on to the boat. 19237. He has no power to detain a ship or take the slightest notice unless they ha.v© either got plague, small- pox, or cholera, otherwise they are free to come ?—Three years ago a Libau; boat arrived at Millwall Dock, and a child had * died between Gravesend and London. The boat was detained for two days. The child was taken to Poplar, and a.n inquest wasi held. The ship was de- tained. 19238. We have no right to detain the ship ?—We do a lot of things that we have no power to do. 19239. You say some of these people had trades ?—Yes. 19240. How do you ascertain the trades ?—In the1 first instance by entering their names and their trade in the book. 19241. But I might say that I was a watchmaker. How would vou know tbait I was not ?—I hav© no* test ,, but I cannot see why the man should tell me a lie. 19242. As a matter of fact, you have nothing but the man's statement?—Only his statement. 19243. He states a good many things; he states that he is like your friend who went, to the gentleman in Brick Lane, and said he was going to his uncle there, but his statement was untrue?—Here is one in this paper whorhas no trade at all. 19244. You have nothing beyond his stateimeirit?— Nothing beyond his statement. 19245. As to these oither odd thousands that you do not actually pass through the Shelter, you have no state- ment at. all about them ?—No. 19246. With regard to these 546 vessels that, come principally from Hamburg and Bremen--?—And Rot- terdam. 19247. And Libau?—Only one a week from Libau. 19248. All those others., except two, were from the other ports?—Not 52. We will say 40, because in the winter they do not come so frequently. 19249. With regard to this medical examination you told us of, you say they are twice medically examined. They are examined, of course, at Etkuinin, and plaices on the frontier, and at the German depot?—Yes. 19250. Those are' people who* go what we call legiti- mately ?—Yes. 19251. They are immigrants who go across the; fron- tier ?—It is immaterial whether the immigrant is smuggled across, the frontier or goes with a passport. 19252. If he goes to Eydtkuhnen, but the smuggled ones do not go to Eydtkuhnen ?—The bulk do. 19253. Not at all. I have inquired into these things very largely on the spot. The one point that he would avoid, if he did not want the fact that he was going found out, would be the well-regulated frontier station at Eydtklihnen and Werblow. But we know they are medically examined there ?—Before we go further, Mr. Klein, the chief agent for the Union Castle Line at Eydtkuhnen (and the bulk of their passengers from the Continent arrive via Eydtkuhnen), says not one has a passport. They are all smuggled over the frontier. If a person has not got a passport he must be smuggled over the frontier, and if he is smuggled over the frontier he has no passport. . 19254. They still come into the dep6t at Eydtkuhnen % —Yes. 19255. That does not square with what I have dis- covered ?—You have been misinformed. 19256. With regard to this examination, have you- seen this .medical examination at Hamburg *onr the1 ship?—It is done in the depdt. 19257. I aim talkirg of those who do not go through^ the dep6t?—All Russian and Jewish passengers .must, go through the depot. They must deposit, whether they come via Hamburg or Bremen, a certain sum ofT money during their detention in Hamburg. 19258. There is a large number who arrive in Ham burg and never go through the dep6t at all ?—Those are- the Austrians and Galicians. 19259. A large number?—Yes, they are. 19260. Those people are not medically examined ?— They are examined in Hamburg. 19261. Where ?—Before embarkation on the boat. 19262. That is what I want to ask you about. Have you seen that examination done?—I have seen it 11. or 12 years ago. 19263. All that is done is the men pass in front of the doctor, and he stamps their ticket like that (describing). It is no more a medical examination than you are medically examined now ?—No; it is done* in the same way in Liverpool and Southampton. 19264. When you say there are no medical examina- tions carefully done, it is only those who pass through*, the depot at Eydtkuhnen and the people who pass- through the depot at Hamburg—those people are- examined, but the others are- not in any sense ?—I den not think that is so. 19265. (Chairman.) There seems to me some little- mystery about what you do with a certain number of people; you endeavour to see them safely to their destination ?—That is so. 19266. There are some thousands whom your repre- sentative accompanies to that destination?—Our agent.. 19267. Do vou find that they nearly all go to Stepney V —No. 19268. What kind of place do they go to ?—Rutland Street, Stepney; Little Portland Street, West End,, and so on. 19269. These documents you produce refer to one- particular case ?—One particular boat. 19270. How many people arrived by that boat ?—48~ 19271. How many did you accompany to their destination ?—29. 19272. Where was the port of embarkation?—'Rotter- dam, Holland. 19273. And their nationality?—In this report there; is no nationality at all. We have the nationalities on. the tickets. 19274. We want the particulars of these Russiam Poles ?—One went to Antcliffe Street. 19275. How many Russian Poles were there in that boat?—The bulk of them are Russian Poles. 19276. Where did they go to ?—One went to No, 17,. Pell Street. 19277. I do not care about the names of the streets,, but what is the district they go to?—St. George's in the East. Then two went to Spitalfields ; then the- others went to Stepney, Hoxton, Shoreditch, Stepney,, Commercial Road, Stepney, Stepney, Stepney, America, America, five to Hoxton, America, St. George's Terrace. Stepney, Silvertown, Lion Road, Gl&sgow, America. 19278. May I take it, then, of all the persons remain- ing in this country whom you conduct to their destina- tion you found they were all going to Stepney?—No, not all. 19279. All but one?—Hoxton, Shoreditch. 19280. Either to Stepney or Shoreditch ?—One to the West End. One went to Little Portland Street. 19281. With the exception of one to the West EndMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 701 they all went to the East End of London?—You might say 80 per cent. 19282. I will not say 80 per cent. I say what you have said, that one went to Glasgow and one went to the West End ?—And one to Shoreditch. 19283. That is all the East End. Why should you object to having the facts—that is the East End?— Mr. J. Shoreditch is a city. Samper. {Chairman.) What view do you take, Mr. Valium ie, 2 April 1903. of the geographical position of Shoreditch? (Mr. Vallance.) Shoreditch is the East End. FORTY-SECOND DAY. Monday,'27th April, 1903. present : The Right Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). The Eight Hon. Lord Rothschild. j Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m p The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. j Henry Norman, Esq., m.r Sir Kenelm Digby k.c.b. j William Vallance, Esq Mr. Lewis Weber, called ; and Examined. (Chairman.) Before Mr. Weber gives his evidence 1 wish to mention that an accident occurred on the last occasion we met which I should like to have some notice taken of. It has been the practice of this Com- mission, in order to save time, to ask witnesses to let us have their evidence in writing. It saves time, and we get greater accuracy. It is almost impossible for * the Press to follow the reading of a written statement, and, therefore, we have been in the habit of handing copies to the Press. On the last occasion we were in- tending to call Mr. Weber as a witness, and his evi- dence was so handed in. He was not called because there was not time to call him, but by some inad- vertence the evidence remained in the hands of the re- porters, and, without anybody (being very much to blame, it was treated as if the evidence was given. 1 understand that Mr. Weber has been made the subject of criticism upon evidence which he has not given, and Mr. Weber's evidence has been dissected by those who differ from him. I hope Mr. Weber will know this was unintentional, and it was by mere inadvertence that the matter occurred. I regret very much that it should have occurred, and I hope you (Mr. Weber) will accept the explanation. (Witness.) Thank you, very much, my Lord. 19284. (Lord Botihschild.) You are a member of the firm of Isaac Weber and Sons, boot manufacturers, of 124, Whitechapel Road ?—Yes. 19285. Your father started the business 40 years ago ] —That is so. 19286. He was a Pole?—Yes. 19287. You were born in this country ?—Yes. 19288. You employ 200 hands, and two-thirds of those are English and the rest foreigners?—Yes. 19289. When you state they are natives and foreigners, you do not state whether there are any Christians or whether they are all Jews?—Do you re- fer to the English workers ? 19290. Yes?—There are both English Jews and Christians amongst the natives. 19291. You have had 20 vears' experience in the trade ? —YeS. 19292. Perhaps you will read your statement?—1 have watched the changes in the manufacturing of boots and shoes in London, and can confidently state that restriction of foreign labour would seriously affect, if not altogether drive out, all the lower grades of this industry, and, doing so, would also displace a vast number of British workpeople engaged in various de- partments, who have to prepare the material which the foreign workmen complete. - Boots and shoes referred to in this portion of evidence are those for outdoor wear. Previous witnesses have confused evidence by Mr. mixing up the making of slippers and fancy shoes with L. Weber. the making of goods for outdoor wear. The slipper trade —rr~" Q is quite insignificant. Only women and girls' boots APnl and shoes are made in London to any considerable ex- tent. The making of machine-sewn boots and shoes for outdoor wear (by far the largest branch of the trade) consists of various departments, viz. : —Clickers, upper machinists, rough stuff cutters, lasters, sole sewers, channel layers, heelers, finishers, trimmers, packers, and porters. The only branches in which foreign labour predominates are the lasters and finishers. (See Amstell's evidence to the same effect on March 2nd.) 19293. (Chairman.) What are the lasters and finishers? What do they work at?—The lasting of a boot is the tacking of the boot or the upper to the inner sole. 19294. But you say only women's and girls' boots and shoes are made in London ? Are these lasters and finishers working on women's and girls' boots and shoes?—Quite so. The other departments contain about 90 per cent. British. If, therefore, restriction were to spoil supply of foreign lasters and finishers, it would throw out of employ the English employed, as before mentioned, in the numerous other departments. You cannot get English lasters and finishers for the cheaper class of goods which I refer to, and it is ob- viously impossible to manufacture boots without lasters - and finishers. There never has been any supply for this class of goods. Moreover, the vast majority of these English workmen now engaged on this class of work could not find employment in the boob trade, their skill being limited to the lower grades- only. The goods made under these conditions are worn by the womenkind of the workman artisan and clerk class. Although the London manufacturers are- able to supply goods at low prices, which are within the reach of the poorest purchaser, still quantities are coming in daily from the Continent to compete in our1 market. I have seen samples of same. They consist of brown pulp board for inner soles and stiffners, while1 the outer sole consists of an extraordinary thin leather sole, and the heel has not- a particle of leather in it, with the exception of the top piece, which is thin- leather. If you wish to see any of this kind of work,, I have a few samples here, if it would interest the Commission. 19295. If the Commission see no objection, I think it would be of interest?—I will bring them forward shortly. I mention this because it was stated through the foreigners here, so much paper is used. This shoe is more attractive-looking than ours, but less service- able, and sells retail at 3s. lid. A shoe equal in wearROYAL COMMISSION ON AL1 EN -IMMIGRATION : v can be made here and sold retail at, 2s. lid. -1 con- L-Web'er: tend that as there is a demand for a shoe like this, it ^ better that the public should, 'bu.y it made in Eng- :27''%r" V**?.-' land of 'Eng}isli*(> ma^rml'*'^pn' to ' pay Is. more per pair and buy it' fciaiie alifbat&'of' foreign material. 19296. l^hatt^th^ishqe;that sells retail at.3 s. lid. ? Is that a shoe made abroad ?—Yes. 19297. You say, " The same shoe can be made here and'sold retail at 2s. lid."?—Equal in wear. As the one shoe is more money than the other, they would not sell, but if we withdievv our cheap shoe, that shoe would be bound to come in more than what it does. 19298. You say, "This shoe sells retail freely " ?— -£t sells freely at 3s. lid.—that particular foreign shoe I am referring to. 19299. This is a similar shoe, similar in quality, •selling at 2s. lid1., which is made here?—Yes ; only it •(loes not look so attractive ; but our shoe will wear quite as well. I will show them to you directly. 19300.'You say " The same shoe." That is what is misleading ?—I have put in these words, " A shoe equal in wear can be made here." I have altered that some- what. I contend that it is better that the public should buy it made in England of English material than pay Is. more per pair and buy it made abroad of foreign material. If we withdrew our London made cheap .-shoes, the foreigners would flood the market with their ; higher-priced Continental goods. The extra price would fall on the working class consumers. The 'Colonies obtain their cheap grade goods from Eng- land, but would surely buy from, abroad if they could not get their supply from us. The export is simply ^ immense, and what is exported from East London :is ; ;* -also entirely of the .cheapest qualities. 19301. Where would they be exported to.?—Africa, • ^ v : Australia, and India. 19302. To our own possessions ?—Yes ; thousands and thousands of pairs of the lightest goodsi are exported weekly from London. ' A witness said that British Ja&our in the boot and shoe trade, had been displaced by: foreign. The only work done by foreigners is last- ing and finishing. But the lasting and finishing of the better class of goods always has been and still is en- tirely English; The cheap class of goods was intro- iduced by' foreign Jews, who, however, instead of •^entering and monopolising all its branches, have only -concerned themselves with lasting and finishing ; the -other branches are a new field for English labour. Although the London uniform statement of wages pro- vided rates of wages for the lasting and finishing of low - class goods, there were no native workmen to take ad- vantage *of them. As to the alleged cutting down of wages as a result of foreign labour, I admit that in • certain grades of goods commoner than those made by our firm the wages are low, but there has been no re- duction of wages ; what has happened is that a new low class article has been introduced, easier to make than the better class goods, capable of being turned out .at a greater speed, with less care and skill, and, con- sequently, the workmen employed get less per dozen pairs. These kinds of goods are so quickly put to- gether that the workman engaged on them earns just as much ias workmen employed in better paid work ; in fact, I have known cases where they have earned more in the same 'hours. It all depends on the workman getting through his work quickly. And it is just this speed and industry which enables the foreigner to make a decent living out of the wages per pair he receives. As to the price of boots' having declined, as far as I 'Oan remember, tliere has been for over 20 years an article retailed to the public at 2s. ll^d., but it was mostly (in the past) a memel or mock kid side spring shfoe or .boot, hand-rivetted, hard and uncomfortable ; and a boot was also sold to the public at even less than 2s. lid., and was manufactured here, only so far as placing the sole and heel on (termed in the trade bottoming), whilst the upper portion of the boot came here absolutely complete from the Continent in daily •shipments by the thousand of pairs, and was of a fabric material called cashmere or lasting. It was of a very s flimsy character. Now, the memel- 19303. What does that mean?—It is a kind of leather called memel, and at one time very commonly used—it is sheep skin. Now, the memel and mock kid ii vetted boot has become almost extinct,- and so has the fabric material boot, but a much better and more . useful article has taken its place in the shape of a machine-sewn Boot with a light leather upper, and in machine-sewn (in place of the rivetted article), which* is. retailed ,nowr at a few pence Jess iper pair: than;the rivetted bootS) ; we^©. P This, ? advantage has, bden ob- tained, not through the lowering of wage§, but mainly through the introduction, of pulp boards, yhichwere unknown"'"'for iise in- the boot trade in" times .gone by. The price of pulp board (tons of which are used daily in all the big boot-making centres where ladies'boots and shoes are turned out—notably Leicester, where there are no ioreign workmen) is about 10s. per cwt. 19304. What is a pulp board?—A pulp board is a kind of paper. I am told it is made of German wood. I am not sure about it, but I will show it to the Commis- sion in a moment. 19305. How is it applied?—It is sent over here in sheets. 19306. How is it used in the boot?—It is cut up into shapes, and the soles or the heels are hammered or are compressed by machinery and put on to the boot. I will show you that in a moment. The price of pulp board (tons of which are used daily in all the big boot- maldng centres where ladies' boots and shoes are turned out—notably Leicester, where there are no foreign work- men) is about 10s. per cwt., while leather which had been used1 in the past cost more like 57s. per cwt. It will therefore be seen what an immense effect this change must have had on the price of boots. In rny opinion the use of pulp, is not detrimental to the wear. The uppers are, of course, leather, instead of the flimsy Continental fabric used in the past. The soles are also leather. The pulp board is mostly used in such por- tions of the boot as the wearer does not reach. Great quantities .of boots manufactured in large factories throughout the country are made in this way. I have known, and in fact I have watched, the, hours of labour closely of late. Men in their homes work longer hours than in the factory, but I submit that this is not done, because a living cannot be earned without long hours, on account .of low wages, but rather that they work hard assiduously when the season is busy and are overloaded with work, so as to make provision for the slack season, which at times, I am sorry to say, is keenly felt by both manufacturer and employee alike. In making machine- sewn boots and shoes a living can be earned by a man working 10^ hours per day on the lowest wages at the present time, and I can, if required, bring workmen to substantiate this. It has been stated that hundreds of clickers are out of work through the foreigners dis- placing them. Mr. Amstell, however, who represented the trades union, and stated he was a clicker, stated correctly that there are hardly any foreign clickers in the trade ; and I would point out that if there were no foreign Tasters and finishers to finish the work of the very large number of English clickers who are in em- ploy there would be an enormously increased number of them idle. As to the price of fancy shoes—which is the branch a witness referred to in stating that wages had sunk from 6s. to 10s. per dozen 10 years ago to 3s. now—the witness aid not explain, as is the fact, that the article for which 6s. to 10s. per dozen pair was paid for labour 10 years ago is emphatically not the article for which 3s. a dozen pair is now paid. You can still buy the shoe for which 6s. to< 10s. is paid for labour. It is a high-class dress shoe, such as the wealthier classes would wear ; but the shoe for which 3s. is paid for labour is a cheap shoe within the reach of the work- ing classes, made of entirely different material, and requires much less time and skill to make. The workman who makes the article for which 10s. per dozen pairs was and is still paid is the British, workman. In this shoe the staple portion is the sewing, which would 'be five or six stitches to the inch, whilst those made by foreigners at 3s. a dozen pairs have in many instances only two stitches to the inch, and, of course, it follows that the other portion of the cheap slipper or shoe would receive less care and labour. As much can be earned—in fact, sometimes more—by the workman employed on this low-grade article than the person employed on the better made one, as he can turn it out so much quicker. This same witness stated that he spoke for the whole trade. He certainly does not speak for the firm I represent, and I should be much surprised to know that he spoke for a single one of the 60 or 70 large firms in our trade. The foreigner works quicker and more regularly, the Englishman does better work. It is because the foreigner is a regular^ and industrious worker he can make a living, working decent hours, on low grades, which would not be any use to an Englishman, because the latter, being more skilled, turns his attention to theMINUTES OF -EVIDENCE. TO3 s6ld' >W ellingborough, llett&ring, ,*Stafford,? B.pi)st6il;,(iKiiig'SW00d? Rothwell, (Nor iwdcH* '@hesham, anclEinedon,; in which no foreign labour ig> employed, even in London there are many boot- making5 ^districts where there are tot few' foreigners • at wdrk—8^. / Hackney: Road, Old Eord, Bethnal Green, and other districts south of the river. The competition, if there is any, is carried on in Whtechapel Road and Commercial Road, and the; persons who compete are foreign ^master against foreign master ;; but5 there is no; competition between the workmen • resulting in the lowering of wages. *T'his is absolutely the fact.5-- More- joyerj. ,it mu^t. not be overlooked that the better-class tj^ade in London is and always has been entirely native. Erom my own experience foreigners lasting machine- sewn boots at 2s. 6d. per dozen pair can easily turn out 3i0 ,pair per day in the factory, from 8 a.m. till 8 p.m., allowing the usual hours off for meal time, He would thus earn 6s. 3d. per day, but I know a great number of men, > all working without assistance, being employed^ in>the factory that ©an and do make 34 pair per day. of lO^,hours, in which case they, earn -7s. Id. j»er day. They can earn this because; they klo not have to study, .detail' andneatness. and care in this-kind of g'oods such as:the workman engaged oii'the best work must do.; I have been inf ormed that the most skilled English work- men on the very best London-made goods cannot earn mora per week than the foreigners in the same number of hours. The system of piecework payment means that the workmen get paid according to result. The more th,ey turn out per hour the more they earn. Within the past six or seven years machinery has been taken up in London generally by manufacturers, but it has mostly • affected finishing, which has displaced a certain number of hand finishers, native and foreign. Several witnesses have stated that theiv was «an abundance of English labour if the foreign labour was stopped. A visit, to the districts in London where the factories are situated would - very quickly convince one that the very opposite is the case, I have seen advertisements for labour week after week, in many instances without result. It is on account of $h&-scarcity' of labour that the men; employed are' often overloaded with work, which mean* long hours. If labour was plentiful employers would spread it out, and so be sure to get their orders completed without overloading those already employed. This scarcity of labour still goes on in spite, of the foreigners. It is not true, as stated to the Commission, that the wdrk turned out by these foreigners is rubbish. The demand for these , cheap boots and shoes is so enormous - and so constantly increasing that it shows they are really a great necessity. There is still the demand for the ex- pensive article, but we now supply a fair cheap leather boot or dancing shoe .to* the working classes; the best they can get for their money. It has * been stated by witnesses that prices . of / boots are ^brought down through; the,if orsi gfner s 'working at Jaw prices; .(Now5 the- making of men's boots is unknown to the foreign work- man, being chiefly, turned out in such, towns as Welling- borough, Rothwell, Ainstey, Rushden, K,e+terinrr, «r» -1 Rmgwotfd, and numerous other towns, all by,British workmen. It was considered marvellous a ,few years ago to see men's boots retailed at 4s. lid. per pair. 19307. Take those two statements. • You say, " There is still a demand for the expensive article, but we now Supply a fair cheap leather boot." Is that a man's boot or only a woman's ?—I am referring to ladies. My evidence is aljL relating >to ladies' goods, *..• «. ' 19308. You must take that part 'about the leather boot as- referring to women's (My whole evidence is' with regard to women's, > 19309. You refer to men's boots ?—T want to point out that the foreigners are not the cause of low prices. 19310. That first assertion refers to women ?—Yes. It was considered marvellous a few years ago to see men's boots retailed at 4s. 11 d? per pair. ' ■ To-day it is quite a common matter to see a fair quality men's boot re- tailed at from. 3s. 6d. to 3s. lid., and in course of con- versation a proprietor of a large number of boot stores actually said to me that he purchased great quantities of men's boots regularly which he was able to retail in his various shops at 2s. lid. .per pair. The foreigner had not a hand inthe making of these boots, softhat. he cannot be charged with being-the cause of the lowering the price of them. Nor does one hear that cheap men's boots must be due to low wages. There is L. Weber. no real difference between; the: manufacture 'of -^eaa's —-— and women's • boots, and yet while' both have become 2.7r April 190& much cheaper, the cheapness is attributed to'-differ§'nt Causes. -The reason for the cheapness;of both'men^1-and women's boots is the introduction and improvement machinery and the saving in materials. 19311. Do the foreign workmen you have spoken of have machinery at their disposal?—Certainly. I have a sentence on that subject. Now, I have already shown that the cheap London boot, at the making of which the foreigner assists, is a fair, useful article. It is, however, said that the foreigner makes a cheap bat useless shoddy slipper This I deny. The cheap Lon- don slipper which they make is retailed at about Is/ 9dc per pair, contains leather, and is a fair article, but if w,e? turn our attention to a few towns near 3VfanChes^ter7 where all British workmen are employed^ we find that slippers are turned out in thousands of pairs weekly without a particle of leather contained in them, the sola being ciit from linoleum and the upper of cloth/ etci," rand these are retailed at 7^d. per pair. Even these sell, and are evidently wanted by the public. Ttfe- my opinion the making of cheap goods is necessary to fill the public demand, and it would appear to be a sound theory that it is better to manufacture here than to import from abroad. Then I have a sentence here Which does not appear in my previous evidence. 3 note in the evidence of Mr. Amstell of Monday, the 2nd of March, that he stated emphatically that the alien uses no machinery at all in any of the processes. This statement is misleading and not correct. As a matter of fact, there is scarcely a factory in , he Stepney dis- trict that does not employ a whole complete plant of finishing machinery, and in nearly every case foreigners will be found at work on these machines. This employ- ment in factories is therefore steadily and (positively wiping out home work, and in a very short space of time home work, so far as the'finishing is concerned- will be a thing of the past. 19312. Now will you kindly produce those sain pi es;' you have mentioned ?—Yes, I have put a label on. each one of these. \Producing sever at sample shoes.) Those are foreign made goods coming from Switzerland. 19313. The label -says : ' • The inside is entirely paper with a thin layer of jute ; the sole is all pulp excepting the top piece, which is l-16th leather?"—Yes." The whole of that shoe is entirely paper, yet foreigners in London are charged with using nothing but paper. 19314 What .is'the price of that?—-That sells whole- sale at between 2s. 3d. andr 2s. 4d., and it is retailed at about 2s. lid. The English consumers are using. th&tiii quiantitie^/,tT'hat ;othe¥ Shoe that ydu have there is also Swiss. 'That is a leather tbp, and tne inner sole of that is entirely paper covered over with' a layer of jute> and the heel is three-fourths pa)per. - : 19315. Would these be for indoor or outdoor wear?-— For ihdokJr.arid-' outdoor wear.5 They wear'-very well for the 'money, butT meatt to; 'say1 'that'^tot' ite^forefrgfiers''* are doing in East London is beneficial to'us'liere; 19316. Those are of Swiss manufacture ?'—Yes. Now I will show the East London shoe. This is what the foreigners are making in East London (producing speci- mens). It is more ■up-tordatei ^-and it is a-betier finished article. It has a leather top, and the working classes; buy this very freely. The demand for those shoes i^ unlimited. 19317. Is this more durable than the Swiss ?—It must. be. The top of that is leather and the other is fabric. 19318. This is marked Is. lid. ?—That would sell at about Is., lid. . 19319. What part of these would the foreigners work upon ? Where does the laster come in ?—'The foreigners would be engaged in putting the sole on the last and? then attaching the two together—that is, the upper to the sole. This would then be in its raw state, and it is then going to a finisher to finish. 19320. {Major' Eyans-Gordon.) What is the actual pro- cess of finishing The blacking and colouring of this. ' 19321. You say that is done by machinery now ?— Great quantities are. 19322. How is the blacking clone by machinery ?—It is all done by machinery by what they call the new method of blacking!. Those, who ha ve been called here know absolutely nothing ab< ut u With regard to ;the witness named Amstell, I cannot $ee how he-could havo704 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION *. Mr. expressed himself in the way he did, anid how he could L. Weber, have stated that the work was finished by hand, when —;— nearly the whole of the East End work now is done 27 April 1903. with machinery, with the exception of a very few small tin-pot manufacturers, as they are called, who work by hand. The factories are all worked by machinery and have been for the "last five or six years. 19323. The lasting mostly is done by hand?—Yes, but even then mostly in the factories. There is a con- siderable amount done outdoors. 19324. {Chairman.) The result is that these samples ' you have given! us of high-priced foreign goods are not so good and durable as the lower-priced British goods practically made by the foreigners ?—They would not be any better. Here is a shoe sold at 2s. ll^d. which is all British-made in the East End of London. 19325. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say the finishing is done very largely now by machinery ?—Nearly the whole of it. 19326. And the lasting to some extent ?—'And the lasting to some extent. It would be in the large fac- tories where they can afford to purchase the machines. The machines are rather expensive, but the small makers would still last by hand. 19327. The machine does not do the lasting nearly to the same extent as it does the finishing ?—I have a note on the lasting question which I should like to mention. 19328. (Chairman.) I should like you to go on with these samples?—'Here is a slipper made near Man- chester {producing). 19329. This is the same class of shoe that you are dealing with, but a little better quality ?—That is a little hotter than the one I showed you, but that is an East End made shoe. 19330. What is the price ?—2s. ll^d. That shoe you hold in your hand is one made in or near Manchester at a place called Waterfoot, I think. They are turned out in very large numbers—you can hardly name the number—they are all made by British labour, and they are retailed at 8^d. ia pair. 19331. That is a very roughly made article ?—Natur- ally, but it is in demand. It is a thing that is wanted. 19332. I should think they would give that to a poor child perhaps ?—No, I should not think so. 19333. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where is that used?—For bedroom slippers and in the 'house. 19334. For indoor wear ?—Yes, I am bringing that up to show that what they say the foreigner does is not the fact, because they are all British workpeople who work on that shoe in the district oif Manchester. 19335. (Chawman.) Your point would be that the de- mand creates the supply and the supply creates the demand ?—Quite so. 19336. (Lord Rothschild.) They wear those slippers in the factories, do not they ?—No, they wear them at home. This is a foreign thing, a Continental slipper of cloth and some other kind of felt at the bottom {pro- ducing another sample). 19337. (Chairman.) Is that imported?—Yes, that is a foreign slipper. 19338. This is rather better than the white footed one?—No, there is not much difference between them. 19339. There is a difference in price ?—Yes; the material at the bottom is better. 19340. There is 33 per cent, difference in price?—I doubt whether they would be better wearing. Years ago there used to be an upper called lasting; a fabric which, tcame across here from Germany. It used to come in shiploads daily, and that is a thing of the past since the foreigners came into the East End of London. Germany does not send it now. That gave employment to German clickers, German machinists, and they used their own German material for the out- side and inside, but now it is all done in England. 19341. What would he the price of that?—This one would sell at about 2s. ll^d. ; hut it would only be the top that came over here; they were bottomed here. 19342. Has that been shut out ?—'Absolutely. There were London leather merchants who used to stock it, and certain departments were set aside for it. I suppose their stock would be 20,000 or 30,000 in very large places of this particular kind of upper, whereas to-day I suppose if you paid a visit you would not find a shelf of them, since the foreign Jew has taken up this cheap leather trade. 19343. You were going to say something about lasters f —Mr. Amstell said that the statement of the Union provided that the lowest price to he paid for an article was 3s. 9d. in 1890. I helped to compile that statement in 1890, so I know exactly what was done. The lowest price at that time, was 3s. per dozen, and not 3s. 9d. as he stated. I have the statement here if you wish to see it. It is the recognised statement. It is the London Union statement. He said that five persons and a boy working on a Boston lasting machine 54 hours per week would make 860 pairs per week, working out at 2s. 9d. per dozen pairs, but that the foreigner made his work at 2s. 3d. per dozen pairs, and he wanted to make out practically that he actually worked at 6d. per dozen pairs less than the machine and Is. 6d. less than the statement allowed. 19344. Would you repeat the figures with regard to the 860 pairs ?—He said that five persons and a boy, or five men and a hoy working on a Boston lasting machine and receiving £9 9s. per week of 54 hours would make 860 pairs between them in a week of 54 hours. My experience is that that statement is not correct, and that five persons and a boy working on a Boston lasting machine, receiving £9 per week for 54 hours, would turn out 1,320 pairs in the 54 hours, bringing it out as near as possible to Is. 9d. per dozen pairs, which would go< to show that the foreigner doesi not work as cheap as the machine which Mr. Amstell wanted to make out. He admitted that the foreign labour was by hand, and that the British labour was by the machine. 19345. (Lord Rothschild.) I want to know where the men's strong boots are made, and if any of them are made in the East End?—No. There may be a few made in the bespoke shops, but they would be quite insignificant. Round Kingswood and Kettering, and the villages round about Bristol, they might be made. 19346. Leicester and Northampton?—No, Northamp- ton does not make a heavy boot, but round about Wel- lingborough and all those places they are made. 19347. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Of the 200 hands you employ, you say two-thirds are natives and the rest foreigners ?—Yes. 19348. How many Christian hands do you employ? —I think I pointed that out in my evidence. 19349. I think not?—I do not go into the question of who is a Christian and who is not, but I go into the question of who is English and who is not. 19350. You were asked at the outset whether you employed any Christians ?—I answered his Lordship. 19351. You said there were some Jews and some Christians?—Quite so. 19352. How many Christians ?—I have not dissected them. 19353. You do not know how many ?—No. 19354. (Chairman.) You can give the number of foreigners and natives ?—Yes, I have done that. 19355. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In answer to the Chairman's question, you said you had Christians in your employ?—Yes, quite so. 19356. You cannot say how many?—I do not know for the moment how many. If I had known you were going to ask the question, I could have ascertained. You know we are in a Jewish district. 19357. I know, but there would not be a large num- ber of Christians ?—The clickers are nearly all Chris- tians, but I cannot 'bind myself to the exact figures, so I must say I cannot answer you. 19358. (Chairman.) You could probably tell us this. The great majority of the foreigners who come to you must be of the Hebrew persuasion ?—Naturally. 19359. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And the great ma- jority of the people you employ are foreigners?—No, they are not. 19360. Jewish people ?—I will not say that. I will try and help you if I can. The clickers are mostly Christians. The upper machinists are all Christians. 19361. (Chairman.) And, therefore, there is a diffi- culty, because, naturally, they would he natives?—I really do not inquire whether they are natives or not, but I should say they would be natives. The rough stuff cutters are all Christians. The lasters, I should say the greater proportion of them are Jews. I have some Northampton men and Leicester men working with me, but they would be Christians. The sole-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 705 sewers are Christians. The channel layers are half- and-half, perhaps ; the heelers, they are lads, and, as a rule, they are Jewish boys. With regard to the finishing room, they are mostly English in the finish- ing room, but not many Christians. 19362. Do the proceedings on Saturday help you to know?—We close on Saturday entirely. 19363. (Lord Rothschild.) You close entirely on Saturday?—Yes. 19364. How long do your Christian workmen work? They do not work on Sundays, I suppose ?—We do not c&mpel anybody to work on Sundays who does not want to work. We open the factory from nine to one on Sunday, according to the Act. 19365. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You say you have watched all the changes in the manufacture of- boots and shoes in London?—Yes. 19366. What changes do you refer to there?—The different systems of working from what it was 20 years ago to what it is now. 19367. For the last 20 years ?—Practically. 19368. What'should you say would be the principal changes ?—The revolution in machinery. 19369. Machinery chiefly ?—Yes, the change has been terrific. Then home work was done so very much years ago, whereas now it is nearly all indoor work. You very rarely see people carrying their boots backwards and forwards now as was done before the great strike a few years ago. 19370. Are there not a great many places where home work is conducted still in the East End ?—I ad- mit that certainly there are, but then home work is a recognised fact by the trades' unions in Leicester. Take, for instance, the very 'best class of sew-round work to which I referred in my evidence, a few moments ago, when I said 10s. per dozen pairs was paid. Would you believe it, it is a fact, that the Union ordered those men who were employed on that class of work who were all Christians—I doubt if there were any t Jews among them—to go into factories to work, but • they absolutely refused; although they were members of the Union, they would not abide by the dictates of their own Unicn. 19371. That is a little wide of where we are. There is a considerable quantity of home work going on in the East End, is there not ?—I believe there is. 19372. Do you get any of your work done outside ? —-Yes, we do, but very little indeed. 19373. (Chairman.) Is that home work principally done foy natives or by foreigners?—It is done by both, but, in the district I am in, it would be done by foreigners. 19374. You disapprove of it, I suppose ?—Of the out- door labour? 19375. Yes ?—-I like the indoor work. We have mostly indoor work, and I think it is a very good thing for the men. 19376. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What class of aliens work for you outside your own workshop?—Would you be good enough to define that ? I cannot quite follow you. 19377. Are they poor people, or what sort of people are they, who work for you outside, other than those employed in your shops ?—I will answer it in this way ; that they have been in this country a few years. Would that sa/tisfy you? They are not the new-comers, I think. 19378. Not the absolutely new arrivals—the greeners ? —'No, there are very few now in the boot trade. 19379. Do you say the foreigner has introduced this cheap bootmaking ?—Yes. 19380. He has introduced it?—He has accepted the conditions for this cheap class of goods. I might ex- plain that this statement of wages that was framed in 1890 provided for a low class of work, and the trades unions and the masters in the association agreed on certain prices. 3s. was the lowest price paid, but there were never any British men who would care to take that, up. Their capabilities were 'better, and they were beyond that. 19381. You say it was due to the foreigner and the foreign- invasion that these cheap things have been produced here ?—I shloulld say it was due to tho 6144 foreigner fostering that class of work. They were Mr. satisfied to take it up, and make a very good thing L. Weber. out of it. There are no apprentices in the boot trade, . ■ so that unless the English workman pulls himself to- *i/ r 1903. gether in the 'boot trade, there will be none at all, from what I can see of it. 19382. (Chairman.) What do you mean by pulling himself together?—Finding out his position, and where he is. He does not seem to teach anybody. W© have a technical school, and that kind of thing, but, taking the trade generally^ there are no new learners. A new machine may come into my factory to-day, and no one understands it. You want someone to work that machine. Whom are you going to get P You can- not afford to pay a man £2 a week to work a thing he does not understand. 19383. Were there apprentices formerly, or until recently?—Formerly, when the home work existed on a large scale, both with the Gentile workers and the Jew workers, they used to teach their sons and their children, or they used to get these greeners, as they were termed, and teach them ; but to-day it is getting very difficult. There is no one being taught. 19384. Take the Leicester factories. Where are you going to get the supply from if there is nobody being taught ?—That is why they have resorted to machinery to help their output. 19385. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have not the men re- cently in Leicester been objecting to the introduction of machinery?—They did not take very favourably to it. 19386. But quite recently?—They have not taken very favourably to it. 19387. A large number of these people arrive, but do not go into the boot trade?—I am not concerned with that. I do not know what becomes of them. 19388. You have made a direct statement that they do not go into the boot trade?—It comes to that, that I do not know of any coming into the boot trade. 19389. You do not know what becomes, of them?— No ; I have some bills in our windows asking for work- people, and cannot get them, and the trade is not very busy just now. 19390. What class of workpeople are you applying for now?—Lasters and finishers. 19391. You cannot get them ?—No ; we can get plenty, of clickers. 19392. What wages would those men be getting?— It is piece-work. You canot tell what wage they would be getting until they settle to their work and do their business. One man we paid 2s. 6d. per dozem pairs, and the man was capable of making 36 pairs per day of 10^ hours, which is quite easy for him to do. I am not going to say they all do it. You might have 30 or 40' workmen in one laster's shop, and one man standing there could earn 7s. 6d. on that work, while the man next to him cannot earn more than 5s. It is piece- work. 19393. You cannot tell what wages they get until j they commence?—No. 19394. Are you in the same position as other manu- facturers with regard to advertising for lasters and finishers, and cannot get them?—I have seen bills all. i over the place at different times, and you cannot get; them. As for men on machines, it is more difficult, than ever. 19395. Reverting to that point about the introduction* of this trade by foreigners and these cheap goods, da you say that the foreigners have introduced all these cheap branches of boot-making?—There is no doubt about that. 19396. And British workpeople are engaged in dif- ferent departments in that trade ?—Yes. Shall I read them out to you ? Absolutely British, without a doubt, by your own witness's statements. 19397. The parts which the English workpeople are engaged on are what we may call the scientific part of the boot ?—Not exactly ; for instance, clicking. 19398. Is not clicking and so forth more skilled em- ployment than lasting and finishing ?—Yes. They must be able to read and write English to be clicker». 19399. (Chairman.) Why ?—Because their orders are written out. They cannot do them unless they are written out; and they have to mark the boot also, 4 UToe ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. •L. Weber. ^Aprill903. You may notice, my Lord, in yotir own boots which you are wearing now, there is a size and a number in- side. 19400.''(Major Evans - Gordon.) The clicking and frough-stuff cutting and upper machinists, broadly speaking, on which the native workmen are engaged, is a more scientific part of the boot P—Not rough-stuff cutting : ' ^ 194MV Clicking?—Clicking, certainly. ,19402. "Would you "say the lasting and the finishing are the less skilled employments in thy process ?—I should say the lastinar and finishing of this description of work:, yes. 19403. Then what I call the more scientific part of the boot, the more skilled part of the boot, is per- formed by the native workman. How can it be said that .foreigner has introduced this, if he only does the ,|§ss skilled or the less inventive part of the boot?— X.will explain that in this way: Years ago the goods that came; over here to this country before the Jew or the fqreigi^er entered into the field was this kind of thing in tl>e tops—-lasting or cashmere upper., The Ger- man clicker was engaged on the cutting of this. The stitcher 4or boot machinist was engaged on the closing of it, a'rid' there' was the foreign material used inside and outside.! I think that answers your question. Now, to-day, th© clicker has grown up in the trade on account of the: foreigner pushing this trade along. V19404.1 '• 4 do5 not see that your 'ai-gunient goes to prove :that these people invented this trade :at all ?—-If th© .foreigners had not taken up the making ot the liglster igoods there would be no work for those clickers who .••are employed on that. ^ , 19405. I am not on their, skill, but it is the mere1 fact that they came and did certain parts of the work in this country. It is not due to their invention, because they have not. invented anything new. The thing is manu- factured; here, doubtless, that was formerly manufac- tured 'abroad; but it is, not due 'te thejr inventive- genius'or anything of that kind that brought these things in?-—I said "fostering." ; 19406. (Qhairman.) Are we .to understand that., in "Leicester the manufacturers proceeded to make that low class of goods, and then the clickers were brouight iin to help them ?—That is so. 19407. (Major Evans-^Gordon.) With regard to the in- significance of the slipper trade, do you produce any slippers yourself ?—We do a little, but not very much. 1940S: Would you be termed a slipper and fancy shoe manufacturer ?—Partly. We are not in a very large- way in that kind of goods. . 19409. How many of these slippers do you produce? —-I could not say. I have not gone into it. i - 19410. What sort of proportion in your total output would they be ?—I could not very well say, just off the .reel. . 19411. Are there many manufacturers, to your know- ledge, who produce more of these slippers titan you do ? ~I should say there are. 19412. How many pairs ? Have you any sort of idea lhaw many pairs of these slippers are produced in the i East Eii'd of iLondon in the course' of a week ?—'Are you ! con-fusing - slippers with the sew-round shoe ? j' 19413. No. Slippers ?—There are not many slippers made iri- 'London ; but fancy sew-round shoes, there are. The slipper is a different thing. This is a slipper. producing' sample.) The dancing shoe is one of thoss . things you may see in the shop windows, covered with 19414. There are very many different things of that kind produced ?—Naturally. 19415; Is there not a very large factory within 300 yards of your own premises largely engaged in produc- ing;' slippers do not know they are engaged oil slippers. I should say they are ok the fancy sew- rouiids. J 19416. I refer to Page's ?—Yejs ; I believe they are engaged on slippers. " ; 1941*7.' It is about one of the oldest firms there in that district ?—I do not know of any other. 19418. Then it is not such, a. very insignificant busi- ness?—You cannot eaillone factory of. great significance, can you, considering there pre- 80 or 90 in the East tfnd of Tnnd^on ?' ' 19419. It is the principal part of their business?—- I do not know what other firms do. 19420. You say: " The making of machine-sewn boots and shoes for outdoor wear (by far the largest branch of the trade) consists of various departments,'* and then you specify the departments. Let us take, for example, the manufacture of 1,000 pairs of common shoes ?—-Per day or per week ? 19421. Per day. Would you give me the number of different hands that a man would employ if he was turning out 1,000 pairs a day? How many clickers would he employ, h'ow many lasters, and how many finishers and sole-sewers, and so on ?—About 200 hands. 19422. I want the specific employments of the hands ? —Of the different departments ? 19423. Yes ?—I am afraid I cannot answer that right off. 19424. Will you put down my figures, and see whether you agree with them. I am taking 1,000 pairs per day of the ordinary common shoes. I say he would take 33 lasters and 33 finishers ?—May I in- terrupt you ? Are you referring to a factory working •by hand labour ? 19425. No, I am referring to the ordinary factory?—- A power factory? 19426. I cannot enter into those details. 33 finishers and 33 lasters, 1 sole-sewer, 14 clickers, 14 machinists, 4 rough stuff cutters, 3 channel layers, 1 heeler, and aJbout 4 trimmers and packers. Would you say that that was about the proportioh?—There are 107 hands there. Are you referring now to a factory that is en- gaged entirely on making that common shoe only, or a boot factory ? There is a vast difference between the two. 19427. I mean, how many hands in the different branches would be required to turn out 1,000 pairs of those common shoes per day ?—That particular kind of shoe ? 19428. Yes ?—I should say that 33 lasters and 33 .finishers in the factory you are describing may be right. There would be two sole-sewers and not one-— .more likely three. I have never heard of a sole-sewer sewing 1,000 pairs of boots a day. He is a marvellous man if he has been found yet. Then 14 clickers. I say a clicker would be capable of cutting five dozen pairs per day, so you want to work that out. You want more than 14. Then, as to machinists, you would want as many machinists as you would want clickers. Then the rough stuff cutters, I should say, would be about right. Then you would want five channel layers. 19429. For 1,000 pairs?—Yes, about. 19430. (Chairman.) We may take it there is some in- crease wanted ?—Yes. I do not think one sewer could ■do it; I have not known him to do it. 19431. Not with a machine?—No, unless there is power. You have 33 finishers to do that work. By that it appears to me it must be a 'hand lalbour factory. Then you say one heeler. That is impossible. With power it would be possible. Then four trimmers. . I do not know about that. It depends on the kind of work he has to trim. 19432. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Trimming and pack- ing?—I should say you are referring to a fancy sew- round manufacturer. 19433. Anyhow, there would be a few more in the other branches than I have given, according to you ?_ If it was a boot factory, yes. 19434. Then you say the lasters and' finishers in most of these factories, at all events, are aliens ?_I say that aliens are mostly engaged in the lasting and finishing. I do not say the factories employ mostly aliens. v 19435. But that is their principal employment—this lasting and finishing ?—Yes. 19436. But that is, not the case, in your factory ?-^-. Lasters and finishers being mostly aliens do you mean ? 19437. Yes ?—No, it is not. We run on a little better grade of work. 19438. On page T of your evidence, you say you can- not get English lasters and finishers for the cheaper class of goods ?—Quite so.MINUTEST OF EVIDENCE. 707 19439. You cannot get them ?—No, because they can do better. 19440. Do yon purchase none of the cheaper class of goods ?—Oh, yes, great quantities. ...... 19441. Then you can get them, because you have got them?—I say we employ foreigners for that. 19442. For the cheaper class of goods ?•—Yes. 19443. Are those people employed outside your fac- tory1?—'Both, and there are very few out. We have: foreigners in and out. & 19444. It does not seean quite clear to me; There is a discrepancy here. You say, distinctly, you cannot get English lasters and finishers for the cheaper class of goods, yet you say that in your factory you have English lasters and finishers ?—There is no reason why fM^igners and English cannot work side; by si$e,t;is there ? 19445. Not in the least. I am not talking about that; I am referring , to, ,the fact that you cannot' get English lasters and finishers ?■—Quite so, for, this cpmnion grade of work. I have some ,Englishmen,' but they are all employed on very good class of work. ' 19446. On high. grades of work?—Yes, certainly, in my own factory, but they are all indoors. 19447. But for the lasting and finishing of this class of shoe you cannot get the English?—No, I want tnem for other and better purposes. 19448. The aliens are employed mostly on that?— Naturally. 19449. Then the proportions here producing 1,000 pairs of the common shoes per day, taking your state- ment that most of these people on lasting and finish- ing,. in,. fact,, all dn.the common shoe line, are. aliens, there would-.be 6.6 employed?—In this factory. • 19450. 30 finishers and 33 lasters ?—J should not like to' go^so.far as^fto say they are all aliens., 19451. .! • understood from, your statement that that was• ;so ?—I,am .not 'going to say there are not a few Englishmen,to be got.. : We. are speaking on the 'broad principle., I take.:it ?; , . 19452. Yes. . tNow,;' come 'to this questioii of :the 3s.; lid. shoe. Have you got a sample of that here ?— Yes. That is the one here. 19453. Is this t3s. lid. shoe imported ?—Yes, that is a. foreign; shoe. ;; 19454. Have you got a 2s. lid. English shoe here ?— Yes.-, i (Producing specimen.). 19455. How do you account for the difference in the- price ?—eiThe. material in the top; of that foreign.shoe is. a :mbre expensive'One.^ .. ;• • 19456. Is this glace?—That is a common glac6, and ' the other one is an alum mock kid.. 19457. Has Germany ever been in a large way in sending shoes here ?—I have not said thiat Germany ever w as—no t • in my e vide nee. 19458. I thought ytiii said that this shoe is more •attractive than ours?-—This is a Swiss shoe. -I -used the word " Continental." ' • ' 19459. Did you not mention Germany ?—No ; but the papers did in commenting on my evidence. The " Boot arid Shoe Record " used the word "Germany." 19460. You say it comes from, the Continent ?—Yes. I was not going to confine myself to the narrow limit of Germany. 19461. Germany, as a matter of fact, has not been a. large sender ?—Only so far ^s this one is concerned, lasting upper. /1 ■; They kept great factories going with this boot and shoe, ,'194f>2.. But they are listed now in the catalogues of 0^wii!^esale; ^opJe.; Do they come here still, or are tjiey made he.re?—-V"ery little indeed pomes now. 19463. The public are willing to pay Is. more for th^s^sh^f.than^they aro foi^ the English?—I,do not say that, but I simply bring that shoe here* to show what is coming fjcom. abroad. I do not say that it competes .0^9^.fl!But import frpm ;^broia4 *of ghoes, generallyspeaking, isvery small, compared with! our manufacture ?—^Yery sifialL I shpuldt s|.y.; the. impor- tation of, a .Continental, sliQe o£ ihisr ^i^dr,ofr work is very small' indeed. The importation would be rather 6144. in the better class of goods from Yienna and Hungary, Mr. and Switzerland, and those places—a better make of L. Weber, stuff altogether. But if the foreigners were stopped 07 a •] iqo3> here, you would soon have them over. That is any ' Prl ^ point. 19465. You do not make the low class of good's much yourself ?—We go down as low as that one there—say 2s. 6d. per dozen for labour. I did not want to open up the sins I commit in my factory, but I suppose I must. 19466. How much lower than that do the trade go outside your factory?—Mr. Amstell, in his evidence, said that 2s. 3d. per dozen pairs was paid, and I sup- pose, as he said he was an expert, you must take his evidence in that way. 19467. Is that the cheapest article you produce %— That is not our shoe at all, but it is an East End shoe. 19468. This is sold .at 2s. lid. retail?1—Yes; it is a splendid shoe for the money. 19469. How much cheaper than that are things pro- duced in. other factories outside your own?—That is produced outside our own. 19470. But supposing that class of shoe was produced by you?'—There is a shoe here that sells at' Is. ll^d. (referring to a specimen). 19471. (Chairman.) That is British ?—Yes, made somewhere down White chap el way. That shoe is a shoe that I purchase and send away to different parts of the world for shipping, and they will have them. We sell them at Is. ll£d,, and I buy them at slightly less than that. 19472. Why do you not make themi^I do not go in for that class of goods. 19473. (Majot Evans-Gordon.) Are there two classes of goods made in home work ?'—Oh, no, they are done both ways, machinery and home work. 19474. Do you know anything with regard to the com- - ditions under which the cheapest goods, are made—e^en.... grades lower than thisl—The^e is nothing less thMU. this. 19475. This is the cheapest of all fc—Doifou say 4hat this^ulp; will hold rivets ?— Yes, certainly. 19>490. Is it customary to rivet these boots 1'—This is not used f6r in-sole work. 4 u 2708 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Wn-- L. Webe :\ 1903. 19491. I think it is an in-sole?—That is what they call a backer—not an inner sole. 19492- What is that?—That is used for the inner sole. • 19493. This stuff that is used for these shoes is the cheap split leather?—Yes. 19494. And that is pulp ?—Yes. 19495. That is the heel ?—That is stiffening. 19496. Would yon say they could use rivets in this stuff ?—No. 19497. Surely they would tear immediately ?—But they do wear. 194&8. But you can break it 'like that (illustrating) % —'You would be 'surprised to see the tons and tons that are used by a laster. 19499. I am not talking .about lasters. I want to get from you whether (the rivetted boot is not a much better wearing thing than this boot?—The public will have them. 19500. Can you repair this boot?1—I would not say you could repair them very well. They might stand a little repair, but they are so cheap they would not want repairing. 19501. How much longer would a rivetted boot last than one of these pulp hoots ?—I do not know, but I do know that pulp boards are used in this country in all the big ooot-making centres. 19502. You know the 2s. lid. boot was made in this country 20 years ago, long before the great influx of foreigners commenced ?—Yes, the rivetted boot; and very often children helped in the making of it. 19503. Then you say that the lasting and finishing of the better class of goods always has been, and still is, entirely English?—Yes. 19504. Who kept the higher grades going before the foreign lasters were here—the English lasters, did they not ?—I assume so. 19505. Then you said the English clickers are sup- plied by the foreign lasters and finishers ?—The click- ing would be the first process ; they prepare the work. 19506. What would the foreign lasters and finishers *do with the English clickers' ?-—If there was no work .cut or uppers got ready for the foreign laster and finisher he could not make the work. 19507. A good many of these lasting shoes are sold in the country now, are they not?—These German ; upper things, do you mean ? 19508. Yes?—Not very many. These lighter shoes have displaced them. 19509. Are you comparing the 2s. lid. shoe of to-day with the cheap lasting" shoe of Germany ?—'I think it . outdoes it. It has beaten it; there is no question . about it. 19510. You say the use of pulp is not detrimental to -wear ?—Not at the price of the article, and I judge by vpublic requirements. I should take it that seeing this material has been in use now for something like six or '.seven years in vast quantities, .and still is required, it is; about the best evidence that you could have, is it not ? 19511. You say a man can turn out 36 pairs a day ?— Yes, and more, too, but I will not exaggerate. 19512. An individual?—Yes. 19513. What do you say the average is all over the -f actories ?—-Take the very slow man, the man with one . Jeye, or the, man short of a finger—<1 put them down at v.about 24 pairs a day, including these men. 19514. That would be the average ?—'Yes. I am taking the fast man when I speak of 36 pairs. I Jiave men in my factory, and I can prove it, and you wean pay a visit to my factory whenever you like,^ who «an turn out 42 or 43 pairs a day quite easily in 10 hours. We only work 10 hours. You are welcome to ,^hem any time you (like. Those men are Einglish Jews and not- foreigners. 19515. You say the competition notw is of foreign master against foreign master ?—If there is any it is between them. 19516. Has not that an adverse effect on wages and hoursI cannot see how it has, The men earn more money than ever, as far as I can see. They turn the ^ork out so quickly—this very pulp board helps them to do it. May I explain to you the description of the work ? At one time of day there was a great difficulty, when leather was used only, in getting the boot made firmly, but by using this pulp board it helps to make them firm without any extra exertion. That is one of the causes of the work being turned out so quickly. 19517. If there were no alien lasters and finishers, is not it the fact that the work would be turned out by machinery?—-There are lots of factories running now which would not talkie in) the Bostton lasting machine. For instance, I do not run them. 19518. You said at the commencement of your evi- dence that the machines' were coming into use mora and more frequently, greatly in finishing, and even in lasting?—Quite so. 19519. I say that if there was no supply of foreign©!* from abroad for this work, is it not the fact that it would be done by machine?—No, it would not. It can only be done by machinery by those who 'can get machines. 19520. Is it not cheaper to use certain kinds of alien labour than a machine ?—I have proved that to you by Mr. Amstell's own statement. He said that the London Union Statement, compiled in 1890, was 3s. 9d. per dozen pair for the lowest grade in each case. He was wrong. The lowest price was 3s. per dozen. Then he said that five men and a boy working a Boston laster would make 860 pairs per week of 54 hours, which would work out on an average to 2s. 9d.. per dozen pairs. My statement is that five men and a boy working a Boston laster a? 54 hours per week would turn out 1,320, aver- aging Is. 9d. per dozen pairs, asv against foreign labour by hand, which Mr. Amstell said was 2s. 3d., so that the foreigner does not work cheaper than the machine, as he wanted to make out. 19521. Then my contention that if the foreigner did not exist the work would be done by machinery is sup- ported ?—By those who had machines. 19522. The necessity would create the supply ?—If the manufacturer had the money to do it with. 19523. When you speak of a Continental machine- made boot at 3s. lid., is that a boot or a sew-round?— Outdoor. A sew-round is not an outdoor shoe. A sew-round is a dancing shoe or slipper. 19524. You spoke of aliens earning 30s. a week in the factories. What do they earn in the sweating work- shops?—I do not know anything about sweating. I do not know the meaning of the word at all. I have heard it used. 19525. You do not know what it means ?—No, I never knew what it meant. 19526. (Chairman.) If you were to say much work and little pay you would get near it ?—I do not under- stand it at all. 19527. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In these home work- shops what machinery is used ? Is there any machinery used at all there?—I should not think so, unless they are what they call the hand-plough—a sort of hand machine—a kind of tool. 19528. You belong to the Association of Employers ? —I do. 19529. Were you one of the parties to the Indoor Workshop Agreement?—Perhaps I had better state at once I am not here on the authority of the association. 19530. Were you a party to the Indoor Workshop Agreement?—I was. 19531. Did you remain bound by that agreement?— No. 19532. You broke away?—I do not know whether you call it breaking away. I resigned the Association. 19533. I call it breaking away. Why did you resign ? —iSimply because I found that my trade was increasing, and I could not get the labour I required in the dis- trict, and I had to resort to the best means of getting the labour. 19534. Therefore you had to get your work done out- side ?—Not necessarily. 19535. If you could get it done according to the rules there was no need to resign the association?—-I did not say that. You said that; I did not. I am paying to-day the same wage as I always did, and perhaps more, and the reason I resigned my position on the Associa- tion was because I found my trade increasing, and in theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 709 ^district I worked I could not get sufficient labour to -do the class of work I was launching out in. 19536. Was your membership of the Association, rtlieh, incompatible with an increased trade?—I cannot quite follow the question. 19537. I think it is clear enough. Could you riot increase your trade and remain a member of the Asso- ciation?—Not with the labour I had in my.factory. I •could not get sufficient labour. 19536. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to the ques- tion of machinery, has finishing machinery been intro- duced for some time ?—In London about seven or eight .years. 19539. And it has been increasing, and is increasing Y 'Certainly, daily. 19540. And the lasting machinery?—Lasting ma- chinery is not taken up very much yet—not so freely .as finishing machinery. 19541. Is that increasing?—Considerably. I shall &e having them soon. 19542. You said just now that there was sometimes -difficulty in getting men to work machines ?—Great dif- ificulty. 19543. Who would you say worked best with the new imachines?—I should say British workmen in every •shape and form are always the best if you can get them, Tbut when we put our plant and machinery down eight or nine years ago we did not have a single hand to put on the machines. We had to teach them, and ran at a great loss during the time we were teaching the men. 19544. Is there any feeling against machines amongst the workmen?—There was a considerable feeling at ^Leicester. 19545. But in Loiidon ?—I do not think there is. 19546. I understand the sum and substance of your ^evidence is this, that the public demand this cheap 'Class of goods and the alien supplies them ?—There is *an old adage, " The proof of the pudding is in the eat- ing." If the orders are coming in by the thousand :pairs daily our great factories are kept going, and hun- dreds of machinists and clickers and sole-sewers, etc.— all British people—are kept employed, there must be a- demand. Tbey would not make this stuff for pleasure and hang it in their stock-rooms. 19547. With regard to the export trade—has that increased very much ?—Naturally. 19548. The chief part is export ?—Yes. I have known large manufacturers open factories in London so that they can turn out this cheap' stuff to send abroad. 19549. Where does that go to principally?—India, Africa, Australia, Algoa Bay, and all round those •places—Johannesburg and Durban. They will only liave this very light stuff, too. If you send them a "heavy boot they will not have it. 19550. There is a great demand for it?—A terrific ^demand. 19551. (Mr. Vallance.) Speaking generally, you say from the standpoint of the boot trade the foreigner has not displaced English labour to any appreciable rextent ?—Not to any extent. 19552. Then a new industry—the manufacture of a new class of goods—has been developed in this country ? Practically. They foster it. 19553. That class of goods is a necessity ?—It muse ■fee. The proof of it is the demand. 19554. When the alien workers came to this country in the first instance were we at that timp< importing into this country a large quantity of goods ?—We were importing into this country these lasting uppers, as we term them. These manufactured things came over here, ^nd all we had to do in England was to bottom tliem. 19555. They were manufactured by a foreign mate- rial ?—Absolutely a foreign material inside and out— foreign clickers and foreign machinists. Thousands of people were employed. Great factories were kept going, especially on this kind of thing, to supply Eng- land. 19556. You say the English manufacturer is now .successfully competing with the foreigners and actually •exporting goods?—It has absolutely obliterated this material. We do not see anything of it. We keep .^nglish people, employed here and use English materials instead. I suppose these kinds of goods are things of *2ie past. 19557. If the foreigners were not here, we should Mr. be importing the goods ?—I say, positively, as soon as L. Weber. a restriction is put on foreigners, seeing that the Eng- lish do not teach, and the foreigners are willing to ** April mod learn, as soon as we take that step the foreigners will send their stuff over, the same as they did before, and the English clickers and machinists now employed wculd be thrown cut of employment, and all the other departments—the rough-stuff cutters, and the sole- sewer's, and so on. 19558. Have there been, within your experience, periods of depression which have become a problem by reason of the large immigration into the East End of London of these foreigners?—I do not think it has anything to do with that The boot trade is most peculiar. It is a season's trade. You have a three months' good run. or perhaps four, and then it will fall off, and then when it is busy you cannot get suffi- cient help to do what you want. . 19559. Then the conditions of depression in the trade have not been accentuated or rendered acute by the fact of the foreigner being here ?—Not at all; in fact, they are helped^ because when the trade is busy you have been able to turn the work out by his assistance. When the trade is slack you cannot get orders at any price, no matter if you give the stuff away. Then all the people are slack. But when things are busy you are full up with orders which must be carried out. In the summer season there are what we call tan or brown boots selling, but no one asks for them in the winter- time. They must be made in the months of March, April, and May, and perhaps June. If you supply them after that month they are not the least bit of use. Beyond that time they are out of date. 19560. In the manufacture of your goods considerable intelligence is required on the part of the workers ?— Yes. 19561. You have no system of apprenticeship ?—Not the least. 19562. What is the process of teaching ?—If we get a learner we pay him what we think is fair, so as to keep the man alive for a time. 19563. Are you speaking of an adult?—We do not teach boys in our factory. We do the best we can for them. He suffers for a time—perhaps two or three weeks—and after then he becomes a good man. That is the only system of teaching going on. Otherwise, so far as apprenticeship is concerned, there is none. 19564. Have there never been times when the number of claimants for work have been in excess of your requirements to any serious extent ?—Only in the slack season. 19565. (Mr. Norman.) Is the supply of greeners greater than the demand, or is the demand greater than the supply?—Would you be good enough to interpret the meaning of the word greener M1 19566. I mean the poor alien recently arrived?—It is not my business to ask him whether he has just arrived. 19567. But it is my business to ask if you can give any information?—When a man comes to me for work, or is brought to me, I do not ask him the question how long he has been here. It matters very little to me whether he is a native or whether he is a foreign greener. 19568. I am asking you whether you can tell the Commission whether the demand for greeners is greater than the supply, or vice versa. If you do not know you cannot tell us?—I do not follow the question. 19569. I do not know how to put it otherwise. Can I put it in some other language—whether the demand for greener labour or for the labour of the poor alien immediately arrived is greater than the supply, or the supply is greater than the demand P—I do not know that there is ever any application for this kind of man. If I wanted a man, and I told another workman : " I want a man to learn the trade/' and he brought me a man, I should take him on, so. far as my own factory is concerned, whether he was a greener or any other man. 19570. (Chairman.) I do not understand how you recognise the difference between the unskilled alien and the unskilled native ?—It does not matter to me which he is. (Mr. Norman.) My question is directed, not to the difference between the unskilled native and the un-710 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : X. - Weber. skilled alien, but between the unskilled alien and the skilled alien. April 1903. 19571. (Chairman.) You know the man to be un- ——_ skilled, and I suppose you can tell whether he. is a native or an alien by the name and by his language?—• I can tell in a moment when a man comes to me whether he is a foreigner. 19572. Cannot you help Mr. Norman by answering kis question ?—I do not know how to answer the ques- tion If & foreigner is brought to me, I should take him on if I wanted him ; and if an Englishman were brought to me, I should take him on if I wanted him. 19573. (Mr. Norman.) You are unable to answer my question, and therefore I will drop it. In connection with that question, are you aware that quite recently aliens seeking labour were summoned for blocking the p&vement in "various parts of the East End, and some of them have said they went there to hire men at 2s. a day ?—No ; I am not connected with that kind of. business, and I am not at all aware of it. 19574. I do not suggest you are ; but has it come within your knowledge ?—No, 19575. I (am quoting from a report of a recent police case?—I do not know anything about it. 19576. Do you employ any Trades Unionists?—I ask no questions. If they come as Trades Unionists* they are welcome. I strongly instruct my foremen of my different departments not to make any difference be- tween any-men we employ. 19577. Has any Trades Unionist worked for you?—- I could not tell you. I should hope so. Why not? .19578. You do not know whether he would or not?' —No. 19579. You have no reason to think he would not?— Nor I have not. 19580. Do you charge your workmen anything for the use ot a last?—Certainly not. What a question! 19581. You never have ?—Of course mot. 19582. Do you remember employing a man of the n^me of Morris?—-We employ so many men that I really do not know their names in the different depart- ments. There are lots of men in my employ I have no connection with at all. 19583. Do you remember employing a man of the name of Morris to work at 3s. 9d. a dozen in a cellar in the New Road ?—Are you referring to Isaac Weber and Sons, of Whitechapel Road? 19584. A certain statement has been put into my hands, and I am asking you whether it is correct or not ?—I know nothing at all about ifc-absolutely no- thing. I do not know what you are referring to. I never heard of such a thing in my life. There are other Weber s in the boot trade. 19585. Do you remember employing a man of the name of Cohen, of 33a, Little Turner Street?—In what department? ,. 19586. That I cannot tell you?—I could not say. I should not know the man's name and address, either. I should, if I referred to books, know whether this par- ticular person worked for us or not. What is the com- plaint? 19587. If you had remembered, I was going to ask you some other question about the conditions of labour this man worked under, and where ?—Outdoor employ- ment or in ? 19588. Outdoor?—Is he still working for us? 19589. That I cannot tell you. I have not that techni- cal knowledge?—I should like to help you all I can. If you know what department the man was in, I could help you. 19590. You do employ outside labour, do you not?—- Two or three people, that is all. Are you referring to lasters and finishers? 19591. I am referring to workmen generally?—Not many. Of course, boot machinists are all outdoors. They are generally in London. They always have been. ^?19592. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What part of the boot doJ they do?—Just the stitching of the upper. They are always outdoor, and have been ever since the boot trade was known., , 19593. That whole process is carried on;?—Ye», mostly by married women, in their own homes and in their spare time. 19594. (Mr. Norman.) Do you know anything about; the conditions in which this outside labour and em- ployment are carried on P—So far as I am concerned myself, I am very particular with the men. I will not allow my men to work with more than one assistant if I know it. If he does it unbeknown to me, I cannot help it. 19595. He might do it unbeknown to you?—Yes» 19596. It would be quite impossible for you, with your large business, to supervise them all?—No, I could not pay visits to their houses to suit them. 19597. I have already asked you about two of your workmen, whom you were unable to remember. (Chairman.) He does not say they are his workmen 19598. (Mr. Nor>man.) I have asked you about two* men. that I, thought were in your employ, but you. were unable to remember them, so it would be quite* impossible for you to exercise a supervision of out- workers ?—I do not think it has anything to do with, me. 19599. It was in consequence of your saying to me it was impossible for you to exercise supervision over the conditions of labour outside ?—I have no direct con- trol. I can simply persuade the men to do the right.- thing. 19600. (Chairman.) On page 7 of your statement you speak .of a certain class of foreigners who work at low rates of wages. These people come to you at a time when they can speak no English, or very little?—That would not be what I mean by a low rate of wages. 19601. But I want to trace it?—-It would not be* affected by a man just coming when 'he does not know how to speak English. 19602. But do people come to you—foreigners who you gather cannot speak English, and, therefore, you gather they have been here but a short time?—There- are such men come. - 19603. Do they come without any knowledge at all of the boot trade ?—Oertainly. 19604. What steps do you take to proceed to teach, them ?-—There is only one department you can teacih them in, and that is finishing. * 19605. When they first come under the condition® I have mentioned, what sort of money would they be- able to earn ?—Nothing less than 13s. or 14s. a week. I take good care of that. As far as I am concerned, in my factory, for the first three or four weeks, they would receive nothing less than 12s. or 13s., besides a little more I should assist them with myself. 19606. That, I suppose, would ibe an excessive pay- ment for the work done?-—They would do no work at all, but simply look at the machines. You dare not take a man and put him to the machines the first day or two. He wants to stand and look on. 19607. But you are paying him ?—Absolutely paying: him for nothing. : 19608. If he went away, you would get nothing back ?' —Certainly not, and that often happens. 19609. Then he trains on and learns on ?■—Yes. 19610. Take a period of three months. What would he be able to earn at the end of that period ?—J havd* one in my place noW who has been, I am told, in thi* country about six months. He has been with us about four months. 19611. Did he come perfectly ignorant ?—Absolutely. He came over, and he was almost afraid to speak to me, he was so nervous. He Hooked like an oppressed sort of chap. I put him on one of the machines, which wa* unskilled labour, practically, and he h^s been with me now about four months, and is receiving 18s. a week working the same hours as our other men. ' 19612. Fairly earned ?—Now he earns this money, and during the first four or five weeks he was earninc" 12s. 6d. to 13s. 19613. iSupposing you did not take these men on practically, what is your, experience ?—J. should not br able to get my work done. 19614. Can you obtain native labour?-—No, that is the point and the trouble ; I wish we could. I should prefer to teach native men, and even sacrifice a littleMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 711 anore of my own money to assist them, 'but there is no institution where you can get the native people to learn a machine. They would rather go . and /become > -carmen or carriers, or something of that sort. I wish they would. I have taught plenty of people in my fac- tory—native born. 19615. If this source of supply were shut out, do jou see any way in which the consumer would obtain the cheap article we- have-mentioned, except by im- portation?-—I cannot see any other way. 10616. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Not by a larger use of machinery ?—-That would be all very well if the fac- tories took the machines on. I explained] that before, but not every manufacturer is in a position to purchase .machines which run into a terrific sum of money. Moreover, there are great obstacles in the way. You cannot obtain a machine in the boot trade right out. ;3?hey are under lease, and certain agreements have to be signed which are * very distasteful. Little manu- facturers will not 'have them. 19617. (Chairman.) Do the machines take up any •considerable structural space?—Yes, they certainly do. You want at least 4ft. for the machines. 19618. At some of these machines the greener is put to work?—On all the machines in the finishing .room. I cannot say that my experience leads me at all to know whether the greener is put on a lasting machine, or even learns lasting, because that is a little more difficult, but the finishing machine is very -simple. 19619. [Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not quite clearly understand all these difficulties you are mentioning . with .regard to expensive machinery. How does that ..square with what you say, that the machinery is disv- , placing manual labour altogether ?—-So it is. Finish- zing has done that, • In times gone by, taking my own factory as a criterion, we used to employ oU or 70 iinishers, putting , them in a. large; room similar to this, , -where they finished their work. As soon as we put the machinery in, there was no necessity for these men. : i 19620. On the one hand, you say it is very disagree- able arid expensive, and, on the other hand, you say the machinery is being largely adopted ?—There are hundreds of machines in use in the boot trade. The machines I refer to you have no difficulty with ; you buy them right out. 19621.' So that wh.en the Chairman asked you, do you ■see any means by which alien labour can be replaced, I say your answers show that machinery is the means ?■—To ascertain extent it requires labour, though, does it not ? You want someone to work those machines. 19622. But a less number of hands?—Naturally. 19623. (Mr. Vallance.) Assuming that the foreign labour was not available, could you, by the introduc- tion of any modernised machinery, produce what you produce now with; your present machinery and your labour combined?—Wotuld you repeat your question? 19624. GcjuId you, by improved machinery, produce what you produce now without the foreign workmen ?— If we could, get English labour to work the machines. 19625. But can you ?.—-No, we cannot. 19626. Without foreign. labour you could not carry on your manufacture to .the extent you do,?—Without some persons to be taught the machines—I will put it in that way. ! 19627. The. real question is whether you can secure the same output by improved machinery with your pre- sent workers, or whether the foreign workman is an absolute necessity to enable you to produce what t you ?—The foreign workman adapts himself to be taught quickly, and would take to it much easier. 19628. What would be your position if this foreign labour was not available at all ?—The difficulty would = be that we should not be able to use the machines un- less the Britisher came along and was willing to> use them. 19629. Would you be able to produce what you do and export as you do ?—If $ie British Tfere to learn the machines. 19630. But if foreign labour were not available — 19631. (Chairman.) Take what your experience has shown you is available, and if the edict went forth, no ' foreign labour was to be employed, what woMd be your position ?—My position would be that we could not turn the'stuff out. 19632. (Mr. Norman.) You said, in reply to Mr. Mr. Yallance, you could not get British labour to work L. Weber. .these machines?-—Yes. ^ -r 19633. Have you tried?—Yes, certainly. I should2^ ^rI *1 not .come here and say so if I had not tried. 19634. I did not know you had said so?—Yes. I give preference first to my own countrymen, and after- wards to my co-religionists. That is my principle all through. 19635. I am not questioning that. But have you tried to get British workmen to work the machines which Mr. Yallance has spoken of—machines which may enable you to dispense with a large amount of labour P—I said if we could get the men to work and an Englishman applied, we gave him the first preference. 19636. That is not an answer. Mr. Yallance asked you a very interesting question as to whether, by the use of machinery, you could dispense with this alien labour, and you said if you could get the men to work the machines, but I understand you to say that you cannot get the men to work them?—That is so. 19637. Have you tried to do so?—'Yes, certainly. 19638. How is it it can be got in Leicester and Northampton, and Kettering, and Stafford, and Bristol, and anywhere else ?—Because machinery is more general there than it is here.. 19639. That might not' be any answer at all. Why is it more general?—I do not know. I said'before, not every manufacturer in the East End of London can afford to have these machines. 19640. But supposing that this supply of alien labour ceases, is there any reason why the machinery should not be put in in the East End of London, just as it is put in in Leicester and elsewhere ?—It could be put in. 19641. Then it would.take the place of alien labour? —But you would want someone to work those machines. 19642. But if you can get men in Northampton and Leicester, why not in London ?—But we cannot—that is the fact. 19543. Would not the demand for these men create a supply at once %—You would have your machines stand- ing idle. 19644. How long?—I had that experience when we put our machinery down. We have plenty of English people to work on the machines. 19645. What I want to know is whether you say you cannot get in London British labour to work a certain class of machinery which can be got anywhere else practically?-—I am concerned with Stepney and the district, and I do not know much about other districts. I know I cannot get labour down there when I want it. 19646. I am speaking of a particular class of labour for which at present you are not making any inquiry or request?—Oh, yes, I am. 19647. You are not endeavouring to introduce ma- chinery to enable you to dispense with alien labour ?—• Not at this moment. 19648. (Chairman.) I understand you put up notices asking for these men, and could not get them ?—If we want labour we put bills in the windows, and if we get applications and the English come in we take them, but if no men come along in a week or a fortnight, and we have any orders on hand which must be completed, we are bound to take someone on and teach him, and we take the first men who come along, and the alien being numerous there, comes along, and the Britisher does not come along at all. 19649. What particular class of machinery would enable anybody to dispense with this alien labour ? What class of machinery had you in your mind when you answered Mr. Vallance's question?—Finishing ma- chinery. 19650. You have dispensed with a great deal of labour because of your finishing machinery ?—We have dis- placed a lot of labour certainly, but they did,not come back on it again. .. ; 19651. Why would not the introduction of other ma- chinery render any employer independent of this alien labour %—You want men to work them just the same. " 19652. (Chairman.) You must work your machinery by an alien or somebody ?—Yes. f 19653. (Mr. Norman.) The point of my question is ; why labcjur cannot be got in London too which can. be got in any other part of this country ?—It is the fact that it cannot be—not down Stepney way, anyhow.712 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ■ Mr. G. , Wright. 27 April 1903. Mr. George Weight, called ; and Examineil. 19654. (Lord Rothschild.) Are you the factory man- ager of Messrs. Charles Baker and Co. ?—Yes. 19655. You would like to read your own evidence ?— Yes. I have been for sixteen years in the employ of Charles Baker and Co., tailors, of High Holborn, pre vious to which I was fourteen years in the employ of Mssrs. E. and M. Moses. Messrs. Baker do a very large retail trade in men's and boys' middle-class cloth- ing. Their aim is to provide, at a very moderate price, an article which will last. All the cutting is done on the premises, and, at the same time, the firm employ on the premises a certain number of workmen for spe- cial and more expensive orders. There are people who prefer work which is done entirely on the premises. ; The firm also has a factory, at which it employs about 150 hands, some of whom are foreigners and some Eng- lish. The foreigners in our factory are either coat hands or trouser pressors. We also give out a very large amount of work to a considerable number of Jewish master tailors. The work done through the latter is entirely the work of foreigners, practically all Russians and Poles, who have come over to England. I am constantly in touch with these, master tailors and their hands, having the right to inspect the men's wages book, hear complaints when any arise, and gene- rally the company looks as carefully after this class of work ais if it were being done in its factory. Thirty or forty years ago ready-made clothing was in a very primitive state, being made chiefly by women at a very low price. The material of which the garments were made was of poor quality—tweeds, printed pilots, cords, fustians, . ldnsey®, etc. The fit and style were very poor. Those who wanted anything between this class of clothing and a garment made to measure would have to resort to second-hand goods, in which a very large trade was done, as the garments made to measure would be far beyond the means of the poorer classes. Now they can get it new, of good quality, and at a figure well within their means. In spite of this saving to the consumer, wages are good, and have been rising for the last five years. I may say this evidence was taken at the end of 1899. 19656. (Chairman.) What is the meaning of that? How was this evidence taken at the end of 1899 ?—-It was a summary that I prepared in 1899. 19657. Four years ago ?—Yes, but it stands now really. 19658. With reference to what was it taken four years ago ?—It was really for the benefit of this class of labour. 19659. Was there any tribunal sitting, or did any- body ask you for your evidence ?—It was prepared for the Board of Jewish Deputies. 19660. If you give us your present ideas it would be better ?—They are quite the same, my Lord. 19661. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That statement of yours about the five years ago only refers to the wages arising, does it not?—That is it. 19662. This five years ended in 1899?—Yes. 19663. (Lord Hothschild^How are wages now?—■ They are better than they were in 1899. 19664. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They have been rising since?—Yes, they have; particularly in the class* of trade that I represent, that is the better middle class. Then, to continue my statement: Trade is good and constant, and the manufacturers make a fair profit. This is entirely the result of the foreign system of sub division of labour, introduced by foreigners, and only practicable when their labour is available. The foreign workers devote their attention to one sub-division of .the- work, quickly learn such sub-division, and so be- come wage-earning at an early date; and, from con- stant practice^ easily do in a day's labour an amount of thoroughly good and uniform work, which an Eng- lish worker (were his labour in the market) could not CfPi6 T1^ The EnSlish tail°r seems quite unable to take to the system of sub-division of labour • maxe an art^e throughout; but even were this latter system possible in our business, it would be impossible to find more than an infinitesimal num- ber of English tailors trained or capable of beinc trained to it The ready-made trade, as we turn it out now, is entirely the work of the foreign Jews. They created it, and the English tailor would not or cculcfi not compete with them in this class of work, not under- standing or holding with their system of sub-division- of labour and the working into each other's hands, as- the foreign Jews do. The reason for this is that the- English tailors' training is so different. The system of division of labour has become such a science that foreign Jews are enabled to make a fair profit out of a price paid which would mean starvation to an Eng- lish tailor working on his own system. Uniformity, of work is an absolute necessity with us, and this can only be obtained by sub-division of labour. By means, of it we can send out so many dozens of articles to be made, and they return to us quite uniform in quality r form, measurements, and workmanship. It would be- no good our cutting down the wages of our foreignu workers. The result would be inferior and unequal, work, which would spoil our trade. I am aware that the lowest class of tailoring work is done by what are known as "greeners," i.e., persons recently arrived in England, and learning the trade, and paid apprentices? wages for work of about the standard which an appren- tice would do. They very rapidly improve, and then1 command good wages, and take to better work. The- employers of Jewish labour who work for us practically do no other work at all. Their workshops are as clean* and well-kept as our own factories. 19665. (Chairman.) What do you mean by " do no other work " ?—No other work for other firms. 19666. They work exclusively for you?—They work exclusively for us. If the work reached us in any way soiled or showing marks of an insanitary room, we- should certainly give no more work in that quarter, and this is known by those whom we employ. Our work means employment to about 300 foreign Jews, chiefly Poles and Russians. The average wages of the foreign hands who work for the masters whom we employ is at least 7s. a day throughout the year, allowing for the slack season. The hours of work, to earn this- wage, are from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m., which includes one and a half hours for meals. Thursday being clearing- up day, they then work later. A~ large number of these- alien workers (whom, though not engaged in our fac- tories, we get to consider as our own hands) have worked for us for seven years and upwards. We have only once had a difficulty with them, namely, on the ques- tion of hours, and when the point was brought befcra us we appreciated that the hours were unduly long, and readjusted them in a manner which has ever since- satisfied the workers, and working arrangements were so> made that their pay was increased to cover the din :'nu- tion of working hours.. It must be understood that all these persons, of course, work piece-work. I must inak« an alteration there j that is not so*. It is the very few? who work piece-work. It is only in the case of a, machiner in some cases and pressers in others that we- are able to put on piece-work, because the other workers have to work into one another's hands, so as to keep the machiner and the pressor always going. 19667. You say the majority of these workers are paid by time?—Yes, by time; and a few by piece. 19668. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was that statement correct as it was originally made?—Rather more so then than now. 19669. The conditions have changed -The condi- tions have changed—rather more so. 19670. But it was not absolutely correct even then T It is in this way: that there are many masters who- receive, we will say, over 4s. 6d. for a garment; we will take a coat; he is able really to divide that into piece-work. 19671. Without troubling you with the details, which we shall go into afterwards, the Jewish Deputies who received that statement would be somewhat misled by that original statement?—I have really qualified it only. I have no doubt I can see as many shops now on piece-work as I could then, but I thought I would qualify it, because there are more now, to take the trade altogether, who work on day work than work on piece-work. It must be understood that ail these per- sons, of course, work piece-work; the system of sub- division and their industrious habits peculiarly fit them for this class of labour ; it suits employer and employed alike. I consider them industrious, clever, and re-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 713 liable. My firm did not start prejudiced either foe or against foreign workers, but I can safely say this— fchat were we, in spite of the conditions of trade before mentioned, to prefer English workers, we could not get them. It is, however, quite a mistake to think that they have been supplanted by foreigners. English workers have always hated the tailoring trade ; they dislike a sit-down business; they do not object to factory work where they can move about. They look for employment in West End shops which do a " season trade." There high wages are earned, because, as the trade is a " season trade," the work has to be driven through, and this necessitates good pay; but as soon as the season is over very poor wages are earned, so consequently they do not gain much throughout the year by going to the West End. They are also em- ployed in the constantly declining hand-made goods trade. With some difficulty we get English tailcrs, to become " stock cutters." 19672. (Chairman.) Is this speaking of the present time or five years ago ?—This is speaking of the present time. There is no question of flooding the market. Employers would only be too glad if the labour market werie fuller, as the gradual rise of wages in the factory trade is not in their favour ^ and there are always gaps ready to, be filled up. The reason why we have two systems of working, namely, one in our own factory and one in giving work out, is that we cannot get enough English tailors for our factory, and cannot get enough foreigners to fill up the gap. The foreigner is generally a Jew, likes to have more independence than he can have in a factory, and will not willingly work in one. Moreover, wherever they work, Jews like to be super- vised by men of their, own creed, and work better under them. English tailors in a factory, however, would not care to have a foreigner over them. The master tailors whom1 we employ are not " sweaters,w as they themselves are actual master tailors, and work with their hands. The profits they make are not by any means unreasonable^ 19673. (Mr. Vallance.) You say that the foreign Jew has created really the ready-made trade ?—Absolutely. When I say the ready-made trade it is rather the better class. I should not go into the trade that was made for export, or the very low class. 19674. Then the better class trade is really done by the foreign Jews?—By the foreign Jews—the better middle class trade. 19675. (Chairman:) When did that ready-made trade commence ?—As far as I can say, about the time of the Franco-German war. We had such very large orders about 1870 for the French Army that we had to flood the market with women labour. 19676. Surely there were lots of ready-made goods made by Moses and Sons and other firms before that time ?-—Yes, which were mad© by women—the lower class'and the better class by Britishers. 19677. (Mr. Vallance.) Have the foreign Jews dis- placed native female labour in the ready-made trade? —By subdivision, to a very great extent. 19678. But have they displaced female labour in the trade ?—To a very great extent >as regards coat work ; but the trousers and vest lower class trade is still in the hands of the women to a very great extent. But, if I may explain, it is more the juvenile trade now, which- has increased with such enormous bounds, that employs the women labour that the alien has displaced. 19679. Looking at your own business, what would be your own position if the foreign Jew were not there? —I should be in this position : I should either have to fall back upon women labour in the factories with a coat made for 2s. 6d., or I should have to go to the English tailors and pay 12s. 19680. The masters with the sub-division find that by pushing it through, and bv working themselves they can do better by time work, or day work, than what they can do by piecework. 19729. Take first quite an inexperienced man in your business : a " greener," what will he earn per hour or per day ?—A very few shillings. should say 2s:. at the outside. You take him as an apprentice. The man can sew a little bit. It nuay be he was a furrier in Poland, but he uses his needle, and he knows how to sew in and out as regards joining furs.. One of our men would put thiim to pulling out bastings, the same as I would place him as an apprentice in an English shop. We take him on exactly the same lines as an apprentice1. 19731. {Mr. Lyttelton.) Is 2s. a day fixed according to the standard of bare existence, or what?—Not at all. It is the very least you can give a man, and the very least any man would take. 19732. That is what may be called the standard of bare existence ?!—Yes. 19733. The man could not exist with less ?—No, but as a rule he has other means. This class of main does not come over here exactly empty-handed, and he has charities and friends to fall back upon, and he must pay something to learn'. 19734. But for those things your opinion is he could not exist even on the 2s. a day ?—They live on very little, and I should think they could. With an ap- prentice, in the old way, we should have a premium. 19735. Are there 'any apprentices now ?—-No. 19736. Are those men to whom you give the 7s. a day skilled cutters 21—The cutters earn a little more. They are on the log. 19737. Who are the people to whom you give 7s. a. day ?—The maohiners. The general ran of first maichiners now at the present time would get about 10s. a day. I am speaking of this week. 19738. This is the evidence that we have before us which you have read, and in which you speak of the class to whom you give 7s. a week ?—1 have averaged it for the year. Then in the busy time they would get 10s., and in the slack time a little less. 19739. When were compliajints miade about the length of hours in your factory ?—About seven years ago; not exactly in our factory. 19740. What were the then hours ?—I cannot hardly fix the hours. It depends. On Monday, perhaps, they would work until 9 o'clock, and on Wednesday and Thursday until 10 or 11. 19741. (Chairman.) Were they paid by the day ?—. They were paid by tKe day. Of course, they would draw extra. 19742. (Mr. Lyttelton.) When . did the more en- lightened system of managetoenft begin to obtain?— When the Factory Act had a little more weight. 19743. (\8ir Kenelm Digby.) Would you employ women and young persons?—No one under 16, but really they run more with the trouser work. They are English. What I meant with regard to the Factory Act affecting the hours was that the Factory Inspectors would go round and look as much after the men as they did after the women. 19744. But there are no hours for the men?—But they do go round and search the places. 19745. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They cannot restrict the hours of workmen ?—I do not know that they did. 19746. They cannot by law. 19747. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I do not think the Fac- tory Inspectors interfere with the hours of the men ?— I do not say that they interfered, but they looked after the sanitary arrangements and cubic air space. 19748. (Mr. Lyttelton.) I was only anxious to know at what moment of time or what was the cause of this factory becoming a factory, with regard to which there is inspection made with a view of out work and hours being reduced, and a factory where they are apparently working even 12 or 13 hours a day. That you attribute to the Factory Acts ?—Yes, and their trades unions, without a doubt. 19749. Did you draw this evidence yourself in 1899 ? —Yes, and I have a rough statement here. 19750. Made by yourself ?—Yes. 19751. (Mr. Norman.) You wrote it in 1899?—! wrote it. If you would llike to look at it it is all hers ii\ the rough. I can show you a few specimens of the work we have done by these foreign, Jews if you would like to see them. 19752. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Do you definitely say that these skilled foreign workmen have practically cut the women out of the trade?—No. 19730. Let us know what he would earn a day?—I 19753. Do yuu employ any women?—Yes.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 715 19754. How many ?—100 in the factory, but they are for trousers only. 19755. How is that as compared with, what you em- ploy to-day. To What extent has the competition eliminated the women from the business. Did you ejnplioy double the number or more?-—It was rather under different circumstances, because a woman-made ooat in 1874 would not suit the public of 1903. The only way I can explain that would be that that class oi work may be done at the present time 'by women, or by the aliens. That I could not answer for. The only tiling I can say is that that class of work, made in 1874, or, I will my, 1870, by the women, is now made at a higher price by the 'aliens, but that coat that was paid 2s. 6d. for then is paid 4s. for at the present time, and worn by the middle classes, who pay 39s. 6d. to 49s. 6d., whereas before perhaps it would be 24s. or 25s. It is really a trade that the Jews created between the women labour and the English. 19756. (Mr. Vallance.) Do you employ female labour at all ?—Only really for trousers, about 100, and, of course, finishing in the work of sub-division, because we have so many machines, so many pressers, and so many basters. They do all the mechanical part of it, and the' women do the felling, the button holes, and pulling out the bastings, and so on. 19757. (Chairman.) What are the garments you want -the Commission to look at, and what is your object in producing them?—-There were some statements that I saw in the papers that the foreign Jews only made shoddy garments, that is to say garments from shoddy cloth made in a shoddy manner, and that really it was a danger to the nation rather than a benefit. I wish to refute that. 19758. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There are a great many shoddy things produced. If you produce these things I can go to the East End and get shoddy things too1. There is any amount of cheap things produced. You are perhaps not engaged in producing them, but there are hundreds and thousands of such things pro- duced. (Chairman.) Nobody has said there are no good things produced, and Major Evans-Gordon says there are cheap things produced ?—Yes, without a doubt. (LoM Bothschild.) Perhaps we had better see the goods. (The witness produced a number of coats and waist- coats, which ioere examined by the Commissioners.) 19759. (Chairman.) One question on this sub-divi- sion of labour. Take an article that you produce. The foreigners take charge of some portion of the divided labour, and the natives take charge of some other portions, or are they all foreigners?—All foreigners. 19760. From beginning to end ?—Yes. 19761. Within the foreign ranks you get certain dif- ferences of labour, because if not, where does the sub- division come in?—By working into one another's hands. 19762. If there is no different apportionment of labour, what sub-division do you get ?—-I cannot quite follow the question. I say that the division is done in this way—that instead of four men sitting down and making four coats in a day, 20 men and women, by sub-division, would turn out 60 or 70. 19763. That is the result. Is there a classification of skill between that divided labour ?—Without a doubt. 19764. Do they get different classes of wages ?—Yes. 19765. Which is the highest in making a coat?— The machiner. 19766. Are they all foreigners with you?—Yes. 19767. Why do not you employ some natives?—Be- cause they will not work together. I could get a native machiner, but he would not work with a foreign presser. 19768. Why is that—is it prejudice ?—It is prejudice to a very great extent. An Englishman works more independently. 19769. If that is so, by your employing foreign Mr. G. labour—I will not say that they have driven them Wright. away, but you have got rid of your native workmen ?— —— We never had them for this class of work. April 1903. 19770. You do not employ them ?—No ; we never could, because this is a class identified entirely with the foreign Jew. They have created it, and held it. 39771. When you say this is a class, what do you refer to?—Our class generally, right through. 19772. It is the class of garments you speak of; is *that class good or bad?—Good. 19773. In this high class you find that the British workers will not work with the foreigners ?--No, not with sub-division.. 19774. Would the foreigners work with the British, workman?—No, not with sub-division. He would settle down and make the garment himself. 19775. Then he is not working with anyone ?—No. 19776. If you have to employ in sub-division different degrees of workmen, according to you the foreigner will not work with the native and the native will not work with the foreigner?—Yes, that is so. 19777. Why is that?—Their system of working is so different. 19778. Then it is not racial or religious prejudice t —No, not at all'. 19779. It is a question of the composition of the article ?—It is adapting themselves one to the other. English workers will not adapt themselves to work with a foreigner for sub-division of labour. 19780. (Major Evans Gordon.) You say that this em- ployment of foreigners has come from the year 1870;— this trade in clothes ?—I went to the Minories in 1870. 19781. Then you say Tfc began then ?—When we had this large order from the French Army it glutted the market, and really created this division, which the Jews took up. 19782. That is about 1870?—Yes. 19783. Are you aware that the serious influx of these people did not commence till 1880—ten years afterwards ?—Yes. 19784. Then up to 1870 what did the people go dressed in ; did they wear clothes or were-they-painted-? —They wore women-made articles. 19785. The articles were produced then ?—Yes, in a very rough, primitive state. 19786. Were people more roughly and primitively clothed then than they are now?—Without a doubt. 19787. What sort of people ?—Every class ; the arti- san, the carpenter, went to work with a Lindsay jacket and a pair of corduroy trousers. 19788. Many of them do now ?—I think very few. The bricklayer had his fustians, which were entirely made by women labour, and the Jews have not touched that. 19789. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) One question with regard to sub-division. Are many of these processes machine processes, or are they all hand processes ?—Machine. 19790. All of them?—Yes. 19791. All the various processes are machine pro- cesses ?—Yes ; that is where the advantage of the divi- sion would come in. If you get a first-class machiner for the first man, he puts in the pockets, machines the edges, and puts in the sleeves, and that is all he does all day long. Then the other m,an closes the coat, and another man will make the linings; so by doing that, and that alone, they turn out a very large quan- tity, and do it perfectly. 19792. Then, as I understand from you, that is labour to which the native never adapted himself?— Never. (Adjourned for a short time.) Mr. John Wessley Martin, called; and Examined. 19793. (Lord Bothschild.) You were formerly Mayor of Reading, and now you are an Alderman and Justice of the Peace of Beading ?—Yes 19794. Will you kindly read the paper you have pre- pared?—With pleasure. The first recollection I have of the Jews in Reading as a trading-.community, was in the year 1893 or 1895, when I was Mayor of the Borough 6144. of Reading. Several of their members waited upon me, and I had a very great pleasure in receiving them and bidding them welcome to our growing town. They were either foreign born or the near descendants of such. 19795. (Chairman.) What did they wait upon you for ?—As a kind of introduction' into the town. They 4x2 Mr. J. W. Martin.716 RO YAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : 27 April 1903. Mr. J. W. form a kind of colony in Reading at the present Martin. moment, more particularly in tlxe tailoring and clothing trades. 19796. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Did they come intro- duced (by anybody ?'—-Not in particular. 19797. (Chairman.) Was it 'with the intention of sealing as working tailors in Beading?—That is so. Since then the foreign Jewish colony has gone on and increased greatly in numlber and business prosperity. We have always found thean exceedingly straight- forward business men, and there is an opening and scope for the particular branches of trade in Reading which foreign Jews take up, mostly in the clothing and tailoring trades, but not entirely confined to these trades, for they also engage in cabinet-making, antique furniture dealing, and cigar shops. I think they are very happy at Reading. Since they have been there they have got a synagogue, which has knitted them more together, and speaking as a magistrate and as an ex-mayor, I say we have very little trouble with the com- munity. When they first settled in Reading there were continual summonses brought before the court, nearly always between master and servant, mostly arising, we thought, through the want olf knowledge of the language of one or other of the parties, but that is practically albated now, and things go on more happily in that direction. Yesterday a Polish Jew came before our Bench who could scarcely speak a word of English. He complained that he was not receiving (the wages which he ought to have. Questioned as to whether he made a bargain 'before he began work he said "No," and therefore the magistrate could not help him. He stated that his work was worth 10s. a day, and -that his master only paid him 34s. 6d. for six days per week— that would be 5s. 6d. per day. He was a comparatively new arrival. 'It struck me that this did^ not seem like working for starvation wages. This was in the clothing trade. We have no objection,to foreign Jews being in Reading, and think there is plenty of work for them there, and I -am of opinion it is a very good thing to bring some of the mechanics out of the metropolis where they are so congested. We get the foreigners fairly raw. We do not find that they overcrowd. They appreciate having comfortable quarters, the same as other people do. We have some slums in Reading, but I do not find that the foreigners go there ; they prefer other parts of the town, Great Knollys Street, Battle Street, Chatham Street, and Queen's Road. During the time I have been on the Bench—11 years—excepting the disputes which I have mentioned between master and man, they have scarcely ever given us any trouble. I have come across no charges against foreign Jews for adulteration of food. We get no foreign vagrants to any extent. It is not within my knowledge that there is any difference between the method of living in the case of the foreigner and that of the English of #the same class. The children of the foreigners fall into line with others attending the schools ; they are very intelligent, and on no occasion do I recollect that foreign parents have been summoned for not sending their children to school. The foreigners who come to Reading are of the working class. I have known several cases where they have come into the town merely as journeymen, but have ultimately been successful in starting on their own account. These foreigners bring new industries into the town, and the benefit is quite mutual. Incidentally, of course, this gives employ- ment to a large number of Englishmen. We have bye- laws to prevent overcrowding, but we have no over- crowding whatever. We are'a town of 75,000 in- habitants, and are increasing at the rate of 1,500 a year, and houses are going up in all directions. Rents are going up slightly at the present moment. Several large factories have been opened in Reading recently, and this all tends to increase the value of property, and in- cidentally to increase the demand for houses, and to increase rents. I have observed these foreigners very closely, and I am bound to say that they have behaved as good citizens generally ; they contribute to our charities, and they do not come on our poor rates. There is nothing special in our town which should make our experience of these aliens abnormal1, unless it be that we have made up our minds to give them a fair trial. 19798. Have you any idea how many foreigners you , have in Reading ?—I should think about 300. 19799. What proportion do you think are Russian Jews ?•—I should think about one-half. 19800. The census in 1901 shows 233, of which 78, or as near as posible one-third, would be Polish Jews. Have they increased since then?—I think so. 19801. What are those Polish Jews employed upon? —They are mostly in the tailoring business. 19802. Then you have also 44 Italians ?—Yes ; and since then we have also some foreigners who have come from France Owing to the disturbances in the monasteries of France. We have a very large school —St. Joseph's School—which has brought over pretty nearly 100 foreigners from France. 19803. Then you have more than 300?—We should have more than that now. 19804. What are the Italians employed in ?•—They do the usual fruit and fancy business. There is the pro- verbial piano organist and the ice cream man. It is mostly in that direction. 19805. They would be common to most towns ?—Yes. 19806. I understand this tailoring congregation is a perfect colony of men who seem to have pitched their tents there ?—It is so, and they are doing very well. 19807. Do you know whether they were skilled or un- skilled in their trade when they came ?—A great many of them were very raw indeed—young men. 19808. What we call greeners ?—Yes. 19809. Do they work among themselves, or have they distinct employers ?—'Mostly among themselves ; but there are several employers, and I must say that Read- ing is a very old clothing town. 19810. If they have employers, are those employers among themselves, or are they Reading men ?—Several of them are Reading men, but some of themselves among themselves employ the Jews. 19811. When they employ, what becomes of the goods resulting from such employment?—They make the goods for merchants in the town of Reading. 19812. Who would be nothing to do with them?— Who would be nothing to do with them. I can give you their names if you like. 19813. On the whole, you think they have been rather a benefit to the town than not ?—I do really. 19814. Have they lowered the prices of goods at all ? —No, I think they have supplied a want or a gap. 19815. What was that want?—This class of goods which has been produced before you to-day. I was* rather struck with those samples, inasmuch as there is a very great demand for them in our agricultural districts, and the people from the country come in from their districts and purchase this class of goods. 19816. At a lower price than they could before?— Yes. 19817. Have you had any complaints from the woxk- men that you had there that there has been undue com- petition?—None whatever, and I get about among the people a good deal. 19818. You have heard no complaint ?—^No. 19819. (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) I think that the foreign population is 233, according to the census of 1901?—Yes, but it would be more now. 19820. That is under 1 per cent, of the total popula- tion of the town ?—As it was then. 19821. Therefore the whole question of foreigners in Reading is an extremely insignificant one?—Except this, that they have started a nucleus in the town, which I think may increase, and is increasing. 19822. But at present, at all events, your position is this, that you have by the census under 1 per cent., and it is a very small item in your population. ?—That is so in 1901: 19823. What percentage of foreigners should you say there are now ?—I should say they have increased pretty nearly double to what they were then. 19824. That would bring it to over 1 per cent, of foreigners ?—Yes. 19825. Of all classes?—Yes. 19826. In all sorts of employment?—Excepting perhaps these French people I have spoken of just now. 19827. Those are in schools?—Yes. 19828. Monastic people ?—Yes. 19829. They do not count ?—No. 19830. Supposing this proportion of foreign people was to increase very rapidly and get to bring a great pressure on the town—a pressure as to house accommo- dation, employment, and so forth—would yoji thenMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 717 ^regard their advent as an unmixed benefit, as you do now?—Yes, I think so. I think there is scope for 'them. I think it is a good plan to get them away -£ram the metropolis to begin with. 19831. We sympathise with you entirely ; but would you .contemplate a very large aggregation up to 18 or 20 -per cent, more population of foreigners as a benefit ?— Not to that extent. 19832. You are aware in the East End of London it Iras overtopped that in many districts?—Yes. 19833. Therefore you would not say* there was any ^analogy at all between the conditions in Reading and between the conditions in the East End of London ?— "Quite so. 19834. You say the people are coming really raw to -Heading ?—Yes. 19835. Are they what we would term the " greeners'' ? —I should imagine so. 19836. The men lately landed ?—Yes. 19837. Bo they come accredited to anybody, from any ^society here ?—I could not vouch that; but the man ^generally gets employment down there. 19838. There is a place open for him when he comes ? -—There is a place open for him when he comes. 19839. Do you say that these men who come imme- diately can get 34s. 6d. per week?-—Not all of them. I ^should say that fare put upon as you say, but there must have been some great outbreak among these foreigners that has occasioned this. There were 152 foreigners* in the Whitechapel district prosecuted, as against eight natives?—I can only put that down to the enormous demand there is for stalls in that one particular neigh- bourhood, such as Wentworth Street and Middlesex Street, and the surrounding neighbourhood. 19923. Why are the foreigners prosecuted and the natives not ?—'Because there are very few natives. The best part of them are foreigners in that particular dis- trict, such as the Spitalfields district. 19924. I son giving these figures for the Whitechapel district, what is called the " H " Division. Can you account for the extraordinary proportion of 152 to 8 ? —No, I cannot, my Lord. 19925. (Major Evans - Gordon.) The explanation surely is that the majority of these people are foreigners, is it not ?—There is a vast number of foreigners. 19926. You say that the competition between them and the English people is no source of grivance at all ? —None whatever. 19927. (iChairman.) You also say that they behave well, and do not commit these offences more than the natives ?—I mean to say that the English and foreign costermonger get on fairly well together. 19928. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Just now you said the English costermonger was putting upon the foreign costermonger ?—No, they get on fairly well together. What I mean by putting on is that occasionally when the foreign costermonger has a right to a stall, being there first, the English costermonger will come along and want to turn him out, hence causing a confusion, and a charge is likely to arise. 19929. Have you ever had ©'■ bona*fide costermongers, i.e., they must possess a stall. We are the biggest union in London, both in . members and finance. We have no rules against the admission of foreigners. It has existed since February, ,, „ ^ . 1894. The other unions are Battersea, Holborn, North Davis. London, South London, and Hoxton. Mr. Blake, a former witness, stated that he was chairman of the Federation of Costermongers. There never has been any actual federation; one was in contemplation, and I was the first secretary, pro tem. We formulated rules, but it was found that there was so much anti-Semitic feeling on the part of Mr. Blake and some of the Farring- don Road people that my union threw the whole thing up.720 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGKATION : Mr; B. Davis. Other unions did tlio say same, e.g., North. London and .f—■— ' Limehouse, and the so-called federation was simply a 7 April 1903. federation of anti-Semitic costermonger societies. The " ~~~~ so-called federation certainly did not represent one- twentieth, of the costermongers in London. Some of the unions, I .am sorry to say, tolerate the following system, namely, to allow their members to place their stalls outside shops carrying on the same business, and this is obviously unfair to the shopkeeper, and has caused general ill-feeling against costermongers. The White- chapel and Spitalfields Costermongers' Union do not for a moment tolerate this. In Whitechapel the shop- keepers,, generally speaking, do not*- complain simply because we do not compete. with them. Taking it generally, the costermongers deal in necessaries—fish, fruit, and vegetables. We go away from shops of this description, and so attract a new trade. One of the witnesses stated that while the English costermonger was open to remonstrance on the part of >a shopkeeper who happened to have his trade affected' by them the foreigners were very different, that they were imperti- nent, and refused to move on. I have no hestitatioii in saying that this is untrue; the foreign costermonger is, if anything, too meek ; he does not know what 'his rights, are (unless he joins the union, when he comes under union rules), and1 is only too pleased to be able to get a stand anywhere. In Whitechapel the police are very careful about the stalls as to spaces and pathways, and it is quite untrue that foreigners break through those rules, because even if they wished! to do so the police would prevent them, and it is a bad thing for a costermonger to get at loggerheads with the police. I have noticed of late years a considerable increase in the number of foreign costermongers, but I have also noticed that there is a very considerable increase in the demand for the goods they sell,' and) it is as easy now for a costermonger, who has a good reputation for straight dealing, to make a fair living as before. There are some costermongers, no doubt, who would like -to see a monopoly created, but this is not my sense of fairness, nor would it be the best for our customers. I have never heard of a genuine complaint made'by shopkeepers as to foreign costermongers, as opposed to English. Some coster- mongers seem to imagine that they acquire an everlast- ing right to a certain pitch for which they pay nothing; but this is not the law, and it is generally recognised that if another costermonger comes earlier and gets that pitch, he has it for the day. No doubt it is annoying to have your yesterday's pitch taken, but you can secure it by coming earlier. Costermongers are just as often ousted from, their old pitch by an English as by a foreign costermonger; in fact, more often, be- cause it is easier to persuade a foreigner to leave such a pitch, when he has once taken it, than an Englishman. One of the witnesses mentioned that the foreigners got an advantage by one member of the family going to market and. another staying on the stall and keeping a space for it, as if this was a grievance. The same thing happens in Whitechapel. The following point, however, was not noticed by the witness: An English- man puts up his stall, and then goes to market without leaving anyone in charge, knowing that his stall is not likely to ibe disturbed in his absence; if a foreigner were to do the same thing and leave no one in charge, his stall would probably be thrown out; therefore the foreigner finds himself at a disadvantage, because he has to have an extra person to watch his stall. As a matter of fact, some English costers do actually place men in charge of their stalls while they go to market, and the English costers get an unfair advantage over the foreigner by putting up as many as five or six stalls' selling the same goods next to each other, or in the same street, thereby keeping not only the foreign coster, but also their English fellow-costers out of possible pitches. A statement was made that these foreign costers do not buy fairly at the market. This is absolutely untrue; thev buy exactly the same as English costermongers do. They buy sound articles as cheap as thev can and sell as dear as they can, the same -as everyone else. They do not sell rubbish, and they most emphaticallv do not undersell the English poster, in-fact, I am bound to say that, personally, I have often bought fish at the market and resold it at a profit to a foreign coster standing next to me. They may> possibly 'get an advantage if they stay late at the market, and prices happen to fall; they then get their goods cheaper, but there is nothing to prevent an Englishman staying there as late; the market is open to all. In my opinion, the foreign coster does not in- terfere with the native coster—his competition is fair?, and there are customers enough for all. The costers- and others who oppose the foreigners simply have" a prejudice against Jews. There is the same prejudice- against the Jewish costermonger whether he is an* Englishman or a foreigner, and I have noticed that most of the witnesses have mixed up their attacks against "Jews and foreigners"; in fact, they come to give evidence against the Jews because a lot of them happen to be foreigners and they see a chance of having , their say against them before this Commission. I notice that Mr. Hose, one of the witnesses, called him- self a carpenter, but as everyone in the East End knows,, he was merely a political agent, and was out of work when he gave his evidence, having just lost his political' job. He was questioned as to his business, and re- peated that he was a carpenter, and mentioned that he* had done a job in connection with the Coronation. If he had been questioned again he might have been asked whether he had done more carpentering than this one- Coronation job since 1890, and if so, how many? I object to this witness giving himself out as a working man. He complained of the East End being overrun with foreigners, but he had only found that this was objectionable since he lost his political post, for* many years he was actually employed getting these very foreigners naturalised, so that they might have ai vote for the party which employed him—it is curious that when he lost his connection with the party he should suddenly find them so objectionable. One of the witnesses, Mr. Alderman Silver, stated that the- re aeon of the aliens getting better stands than the English was the bribery of the police; I beg to state that this is a direct calumny and totally untrue, the* police receive no bribery whatever from the coster- monger, and the costermongers would not give any such* bribe, because if known to the union it would mean< instant dismissal from membership. 10935. (Chairman.) I do not think that statement about the police being bribed had any effect upon us ?" —Thank you, my Lord. 19936. (Mr. Vallance.) What is a stall? Do you in- clude a barrow?—The section of the Act sets out,,. "Trade barrow and stall," so that a barrow comes as a, separate item as well as a stall, and I think that has already been decided. 19937. I take it from the general tenour of your evi- dence that you regard street trading as a distinct ad- vantage to the locality?—I do. 19938. And in no case do stall-holders sell the same- goods as the shopkeepers near—I do not mean imme- diately opposite, but near to them ?—He may be near. If a man had a shop where his Lordship is sitting, we should not allow a man to come within 30 or 40 yards > or perhaps more, or within reach of that shop. 19939. Supposing four or five shops away there is a* shop selling the same goods as are sold on the stalls?— Then we simply replace that man, and put another stall1 where he was. 19940. You as a union would regulate that ?—Ex- actly. 19941. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Has anything been done- in the way of establishing regular markets now?—No, nothing has been done with reference to establishing regular markets, and it would 'be the greatest failure-" in the world, and would 'be creating an evil to the work- ing classes to erect these markets. In the first place, when you erect a market you cannot guarantee a suc- cess. You are taking a man from his habitual work and his trade, and you are asking him to give up a live- lihood that he is earning, and to establish himself in a place where he is not guaranteed, or recouped, for what he is giving up. My personal experience is that where markets have been built they have always been failures. The people will come through the street and' purchase their wares. 19942. As a matter of fact, these stalls are in the street?—Exactly, and I have also noticed that where there have been stalls removed the tradespeople have been absolutely ruined, and have had to move entirely from the neighbourhood. Take High Street, Poplar^ That place was at one time an enormous business place, and people there were getting a very good livelihood The costers were taken from there, and the consequence was they were placed in Chrisp Street, Poplar. Chrisp Street, Poplar, is a flourishing place now. and you can- not get a «Hop there &>r love or money; whereas in HighMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 721 Street, Poplar, you can get any amount of shops. There is no business done. 19943. Have these prosecutions you have spoken of been instituted thy the police or by the local authority ? By the police, and I will explain that matter to you. A man, for instance, acquires a market by usage or privilege. That becomes a market after a certain number of years for instance, from time immemorial, and stalls are placed there continuously. A man who takes a barrow through a street where there is no market, and there comes a crowd round his barrow, becomes an obstruction by law, and is liable to be pro- ceeded against by the police. That is how prosecutions are brought about. 19944. Have the foreigners introduced any different habits? Do they move about more than the natives? —TJntil"they are initiated into what is their right of trading, they do move about. They do not know what they have to do. 19945. Their moving about brings the police down upon them ?—Exactly. 19946. When a foreigner has been prosecuted, do you generally find he conforms to the rules afterwards ?— That depends. Sometimes he joins the union and some- times he does not. If he does he usually complies with the rules and regulations of the union. 19947. Are many of these men who have been prose- cuted not members of the union?—No, they are not members of the union. 19948. (Lord Bothschild.) Can you explain why there were more prosecutions against foreign costermongers than against the English costermongers?—I think I have given that explanation in this instance. An Englishman knows where an union is, and he will join. For instance, Farringdon Road. He knows what he is entitled to, but the foreigner, who does not, goes round the street with his barrow, and the mob collects round, and he is prosecuted, whereas the Englishman gets a stall in a market-place. 19949. A foreigner does not understand the police ? —That is possible. 19950. Bo the native costermongers object to the foreign costermongers1 ?—No. 19951. (iChairmanYou are the secretary of the Costermongers' Union of Spitalfields and Whitechapel ? —Yes, and the Newington branch. 19952. What proportion have you of foreigners to natives?—I should say about one^third. 19953. One-third foreigners?—Yes. 19954. That does not account for 152 foreigners, and eight natives only being prosecuted ?—I know nothing . about that, because they are not members of the union. 19955. When they commence as costermongers, in what state is their knowledge of the English language ? —-I should not think they know much of the English language. 19956. They are able to buy and sell?—Yes, I think so. 19957. Surely, if they knew that they would know enough to understand the police ?—I should think they knew very little, but it generally happens in the neigh- bourhoods where their own class of people live and reside some of them are able to speak the language in • their own native language, and it is in these neigh- bourhoods that this prosecution occurs. Take, for instance, Commercial Road, Berners Street, Christian Street, and all those streets where the native language is spoken, naturally these costermongers who are prosecuted in Stepney get in that portion of the neigh- bourhood, and that accounts for the prosecutions in Stepney. 19958. I do not see why they should not conform to the law if they understand the policemen?—No one objects to their conforming to the laws. 19959. Then why should they be prosecuted if they understand the police and know what they are to do? Why should you have 150 foreigners prosecuted, and only .eight natives ?—I do not know. I can only answer for what I know. 19960. I understood you to say that if they joined the union there would be no prosecutions ?—Yes. 19961. Why ?—Because they would have to conform to the rules of the union. M B. D London—it is well known that they are excellent buyers, and sell well. It must be remembered that to buy well means that the goods are half sold, and that while the coster- monger gets the advantage of good buying, the customer also profits by getting the goods either cheaper or better. I have often stood by my stall next to a foreigner, and, in fact, do so at the present time, and always find them obliging. I have often found that if they pay a full par- cel they will let an English costermonger have a share of it without charging any profit. Persons who state that these foreigners have different methods, and are a different kind of people to the English costermonger simply don't know them, and are blinded by their dis- like of them. Lots of people, not only in London but elsewhere, hate all foreigners like poison, and even the young children are taught that Jews murdered Christ and are to be hated. So when you find a foreigner who is also a Jew he has a bad time of it. An English costermonger is just as likely to seize your pitch, if he has a legal right to it, as is a foreigner. In fact, more so —the only persons we fear seizing our pitch are English costermongers ; the foreigners don't dare to, for we costermongers don't mince matters. I have never heard of costermongers being ordered out of any street owing to complaint against foreign costermongers. There has been trouble from time to time between the police and the costermongers, and I am bound to say that it is very often due to the costermongers themselves. The coster- mongers, particularly when they belong to a trade's union, sometimes think they have more right than they really have, and are liable to get at loggerheads with the police and local bodies.; this is their own fault. In my own opinion—and I am sure I am right—'the exis- tence of a costermongers' market in a neighbourhood is most useful to the shops, and! persons who will com- mence buying at a stall will very often complete buying at one or other of the shops. As a matter of fact I myself have a shop, and find that the presence of costermongers' stalls decidedly does it good. 19983. (Chairman.) What is your trade?—Fruiterer and greengrocer. I have never heard of a foreigner placing, his pitch in front of a shop selling the same roods. No foreigner would think of starting to sell the same goods as are sold by the shop opposite it. He daren't even if he wanted to. 19984. Why not; is that competition?—Because I' . should simply, or the shopkeeper would simply call a policeman and ask him to have him turned! away1 for selling the same article outside the man's shop. Mr. Israel Ehrentsurg, Mr /. 19997. (Lord Bothschild.) Were you born in Mile End Ehrenburg. Old Town?—Yes. 19998. That is in the Whitechapel division of the Tower Hamlets ?—Yes. 19999. You are an alien with naturalised parents, and you were educated at the Free School?—Yes. 20000. You are connected with Jewish charities in London, and yon went to. Reading ?—Yes. 20001. You are in business in Reading, I suppose? —Tea. called; and Examined. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is selling the same article against the law. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) No, there is no law, but you could perhaps treat him as being an obstruction. 19985. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Why, if there was a stall always standing there, should he be treated as obstructing! ? If you called a policeman the policeman would have no power to interfere?—It would not be' very fair competition. 19986. The policeman has nothing to do with unfair competition ?—Perhaps not. 19987. (Chairman.) If a man came selling fruit out- side your shop, you would; object to it, and if he came and sold fish you would not ?—No. 19988. If you sold fruit you would ask the policeman to remove him ?—Yes. 19989. And the policeman would do it?—Yes. 19990. Why?—'Because he would not think it fair himself to sell the same article outside my shop. 19991. (Mr. Vallance.) You say no foreigner would think of starting to sell the same goods ?—I should not think so. I have never found him do so. 19992. (Lord Bothschild.) Unless the stall belonged'to the shop ?—If I put the stall outside my own shop that is a different matter. (Chairman.) It may be the custom, but I do not see any law with regard to it. 19993. (Mr. Vallance.) You have not known an in- stance of a costermonger placing his stall to sell the same goods immediately opposite a shop ?—No, I have not. 19994. The previous witness has not only known of cases, but he has exerted his influence and power as secretary of the union to prevent it?1—If they have done such a thing I daresay the secretary would do so, but I have never witnessed it myself. 19995. Neither in the case of the unionist nor the non- unionist?—No>. I have never heard) of an English costermongier, when remonstrated with by the police, quietly moving on whilst the foreigner remained argu ing his rights. Such a state of things makes very good reading, but it is not history. In my opinion the foreign costermonger does no harm either to a neigh- bourhood or the costermongers. There is a much larger trade dene now by costermongers than there used to be, and it must not be overlooked that there are many more people in East London of the class which buys of costers than there used to bo, and that a great number of them 1 are foreigners—.some of the largest buyers from us coster- mongers are foreigners, so the thing works fairly. Some of the foreign costermongers go to market and buy more fruit than six English costermongers, and they don't buy rubbish. 19996. (Chairman.) Do they go to Covent G-arden? —Yes, or Thames Street. I know that one or two of the costers' unions are very much opposed to foreign Jewish costermongers, but their reasons are soon learnt if you question them. They simply hate all foreigners and Jews, and would do them any amount of injury if they could'; their dislike is simply from ignorance, and there are plenty of political people and agitators in London trying all they can to create and keep alive the feeling against these foreigners. called; and Examined, 20002. At Reading you are- the chairman of the Syna- gogue Building Committee, and President and Senior Trustee of various Hebrew Charities there ?-—Yes. 20003. Will you kindly read your paper ?—I came to reside with my parents at Reading in the latter end of 1885, and found five alien families entirely unknown to the local residents!, and all working for one firm. Since then a considerable increase in the alien popula- tion has occurred; in fact, 80 per cent, being aliens hailing from the Whitechapel Division of the Tower Hamlets. None of the Jewish residents being in affluentMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 723 circumstances, ^ et at the first public meeting called by the Building Committee in 1900, at which Sir Samuel Montagu presided, although called for 3 p.m..-- 20004. (Chairman.) What does that mean, that, " in fact, 80 per cent, are aliens from the Whitechapel Division of the Tower Hamlets"?—80 per cent, of the Jewish population!. 20005. In Beading?—Yea 20006. You mean that of the Jewish population in Reading, 80 per cent, have come from the. Tow^r Hamlets?—Exactly. Some three or four hundred principal residents attended, including Councillors, ex-Mayor, and Mayor, who spoke from the platform, as did one or two Aldermen. In response to the appeal for £3,500 some £600 or £700 was subscribed locally and in the county. 20007. (Lord Bothschild.) Was that subscribed by th§ aliens themselves?—By the ^aliens and the Christian inhabitants. I have taken active measures in the interest of the Barry Dock disaster, the Indian Famine Fund, Soldiers. and Sailors' Widows and Orphans, and was founder of the Waifs and Strays' New Year's Fund, 1893, for which the Corporation] granted the use of the Corn Exchange, and the Mayor, Alderman Martin, pre- sided. In all these undertakings the alien Jews devoted their time and energy, and 'subscribed liberally, thereby ensuring the success of every movement, so much so that at the recent Coronation festivities the Mayor's secretary wrote -and acknowledged their efforts in every- thing in which they were called upon to take part. There is no exclusive dealing here ; although there are Jewish alien tradesmen, they aire not patronised to such an extent; indeed, a Jewish draper who rented in the Arcade under the Corporation, had, with his family, to leave Reading through insufficient support from his own people. Be overcrowding: all are living in cottages, or semi-detached villas, ranging from 7s. to 14s. weekly, without having married lodgers. In some cases they may have one or two single young men boarders, but it is the usual custom for the native working class to have even six boarders. They all live within their means, and are able to afford .in, addition to be taxed to the extent of ; between 50s. and 60s. annually to support their synagogue. 20008. Do you know what the boarderis pay a week ? —That I could not , say, but it varies from 10s. to 12s. a week. With regard to cleanliness, the sanitary authorities can be relied upon to see that the laws are not evaded, and the aliens compare very favourably with their neighbours. No complaints nor summonses have had to be lodged against them. With regard to under-cutting labour, the alien employees receive a j wage ranging from 6s. 6d. to 10s. a day of 12 and 13 Ehrenburg. hours (no longer) even in the busiest season. In fact, —— ' it is a very difficult matter to get good men even at 27 April 1903. these figures, unpractical workmen asking for the same wage, and refusing to leave London otherwise. Then there is the case of the alien and employer (myself) at the Borough Bench. That was the case of a workman whom I had brought from London. He was an un- skilled workman, and although I paid him at the rate of 6s. ia day, he brought me before the Borough Bench and asked for 10s. a day, and it was proved that his work was not worth half the amount I paid him, but (he was discontented ; he was an alien, and could not speak a word of English. 20009. You paid him at the rate of 6s. a day, and, (he sued you for 10s. %—Yes. 20010. On what ground did he sue you for 10$. ?—• Because he heard soi much about the 10s. a day among the working classes, that he thought he was entitled to it. 20011. What kind of work was that?—Tailoring. 20012. (Mr. Vallance.) What was the result?—The result wais that the case was dismissed, ias the magis- trates were perfectly satisfied he was well paid for his services. 20013. (Lord Bothschild.) You say there is no sweat- ing in Reading ?—Not to the extent of under-paying for the labour done. 20014. You say there is no case of lawlessness or immorality or evasion of the Factory or other Acts. Is that the case?—Exactly. With the exception of one family, there is not a case in the town (and there have been as many as 60 families there), with regard to which there has ever been any complaint of any description. 20015. There have been no summonses required to enforce breaches of the law ?-^Exactly. 20016. Then you say something about the conditions of life, and the surroundings'. You say in your state- ment, " After supporting all they are called upon to do, ^ome have been enabled to live in their own free- hold or leasehold houses, -as the case may be, all living on the most amicable terms with their neighbours"? —Yes. 20017. Your synagogue has only been built two years, but during that time you have had several collections for public institutions, non-Jewish, three of which were for the Royal Berkshire Hospital, the last being November 9th, when they were enabled to hand over to the hospital authorities the largest church or ohapel collection yet made. Mr. W. David Cohen, called ; and Examined. 20018. (Lord Bothschild.) You are a boot laster?— Yes. 20019. And an Englishman ?—Yes. 20020. Before I ask you to read your evidence, I see you live in the Stepney Green Buildings—those are the. new buildings ?—Yes. 20021. You are quite satisfied with them?—Yes, my Lord, perfectly. I have been there seven years. 20022. And your rent is not excessive ?-—No, it has* never been raised. 20023. Perhaps you will read your own evidence?— I have been in the boot trade for 25 years. I have read a report of the statement of Mr. Zachariah Solomons to this Commission. An English boot las/fcer iist, as a. rulfe, a. skililed mechanic, and can always make a better, boot than a foreigner; he can make a boot with a heel or one sewn or rivetted, while the foreigner on entering the boot trade only learns one portion of it, and when he does learn to make a common boot or shoe only turns out cheap cliass goods. So the English laster keeps to his better class goods, and the foreign laster has; no rival in the lower class goods. I have worked in shops where the foreigner, although an inferior mechanic, and making boots where the pay per dozen is low, can almost earn as much as an Englishman making good class goods. For example, an Englishman who gets •as much as <4s. 6d. for lasting a dozen pairs, can make about 20 pairs a day, where a foreigner who gets 2s. to 2s; 3-1. a dozen, pairs can make his three dozen a day, 6144. ' ' because his work does not require the same amount of Mr, skill. You cannot, as Mr. Solomons did, compare the W- Cohen. wages of those foreigners with the wages earned years ~~ ago for entirely different work. The^work for which the low price is paid was not made properly. There are a few cases where a foreigner has become a skilled mechanic, but I can safely say that an English mechanic can always hold his own. I ' have worked along with Englishmen in some of the best shops in London, and in some of the commonest with foreigners, and I have found that the amount of wages earned by both have been almost the same. There- fore, I consider an Englishman has nothing to fear from the foreigner in the labour market. Looking back, say 10 years, I find that thai wages per pair of boots paid were certainly better than now,, because, before the advent of the heeling machine, a laster could make his 18 pairs a day, but when the heeling machine was introduced in a shop Ii® had to do more work a day without heels, and ronpived less pay, and in later years, on the introduction of the* boot lasting machine, it further reduced the Wages,. and at the same time reduced the labour. The competition is between the manufacturer with machinery and the manufacturer without. T he- one without machinery has but one source open, and that is, to try and produce his work at a cheaper rate and increase his output. Now in almost every factorv is dor>« about .three times the amount per week done before the advent of machinery,; therefore, th«r-a is more slack time than there was before; but T ■ sider with all this that an Englishman can yet always724 .ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. earn a living in competition with a foreigner, and my W D. Cohen, contention is, that it is machinery and competition alone that has reduced labour all round, and not the 27 April 1803. foreigner. Hours of Labour. x he hours of labour are now less than they were for- merly. Before the indoor labour question in the boot trade about twelve years ago, English and foreign workmen used to- take out work to their homes and convertel their dwelling-rooms into workshops, and work about 15 hours a day, but when the indoor work- shop became an established fact, I think in 1880, they worked according to the factory hours, and they work about 54 hours a week. The wages they earned were about the same, as the time lost in going backwards and forwards to the shop was thus saved. The Foreigner as a Shopmate. I have worked with the foreigner for about 15 years, and dntil lately in one firm right off for seven years, where, there were foreigners employed, and I have always found them industrious, thrifty, generous, and the first to help a shopmate in distress, without caring to know to what nation or creed he belonged. Whenever ho was asked to take a ticket for a benevolent society's benefit5 or subscribe towards a poor man's benefit, he never refused, and when an English shopmate would show him anything for his benefit he always appreciated him for it, and was always open to learn and follow his ways, so therefore I consider he has never done us, i.e., the Englishmen in the boot trade, any harm. I am aware that the greener who comes over here is ^often sweated. He works hard, but one might as well say that an apprentice is sweated; he works hard, and generally gets no wages for several weeks. These greeners want to learn a trade, and consequently they do the rough unskilled work for a very low wage. When they have learnt their trade they know what wages they are worth, and see that they get it. I heard that one witness said that he had been sweated for 12 years or more. I never heard of such a case. He certainly must have been far below the average foreigner, and unsuited for his trade. As a rule, they work for low wages for a few months only. 20024. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you any experience of this new lasting machinery?—I worked for a few weeks for a firm, ibut the wages I got were very low, and I did not stop long, because the work required was too much for the wages I was getting. 20025. Is the lasting machinery increasing much?— It has don© lately. 20026. With regard to finishing, we hear a great deal is done by machinery?—In nearly every shop in the East End they have finishing plant. » . 20027. (Chairman.) Is the machinery very large and t * complicated and difficult, or is it simple machinery?— Th© Boston lasting machine is a simple machine, but it requires, a strong man to work it. 20028. Is it expensive?—I do not exactly know the cost. 20029. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do the foreigners work with the machines much?—Not in the lasting. 20030. Do they in the finishing ?—Yes, but they can- not do it in the lasting. The amount of skill required is beyond their ability. 20031. Therefore you say the lasting machines are worked by natives?—Absolutely by natives. 20032. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say that the foreigner gets 2s. to 2s. 3d. a dozen pairs for lasting?— In some shops he does not get that. 20033. Do you know places where they give from Is. 7d. to Is. 9d. per dozen?—No. 20034. That does not exist?—I never heard of it. 20035. Would it go as low as Is. 7d. to Is. 9d. ?— "No, the lowest I have heard is 2s. 20036. When he makes these 20 pairs a day you say he Would do it working, how many hours?—Ten. 20037. Do you allow any time in that for shopping his •stuff ?—There is very little time lost in shopping. 20038. How much ?—Sometimes five or 10 minutes. 20039. It depends on how far he has to go ?—I am alluding, to the indoor labour. , 20040. I am alluding to the outdoor labour ?—Then! ;k very little outdoor labour in this class of work. 20041. If he was working out he could not do it in 10 hours?—They do not do this better class of goods outdoors. What I said about 20 pairs a day applies to the better class. 20042. Do you know anything about the conditions under which the lower class of goods are produced ?— I have known of a laster who has taken a. workshop; he has sublet some stands to other lasters, and they have been produced there. Sometimes the man has worked with a boy, and sometimes by himself. 20043. They would work longer hours, would not they ? —That is optional to themselves. The longer they work, the more they earn. 20044. In these 10 hours a day you talk of in the shop, how much do you allow for fitting up the stuff? —We fit up our own. 20045. Each man?—Yes, piecework. • 20046. How much of that time is taken by the fitting up?—If you have two dozen pairs, it might take 29 minutes. 20047. You talk of a few dozen ?—There is hardly anj other fitting up required, because it is already done for them oil the common work. 20048. The fitting up is done by somebody else ?■— No, nothing is required to be fitted up. Everything is cut according to the last. There is no cutting of the sole and no cutting of stiffenings. All he has to do is to lay the stuff in and knock the tacks in. 20049. You are wrong, I think, in talking about Mr. Solomon comparing these things. What Mr. Solomon was comparing was the slipper trade—the turned shoe ? —That is quite right; he did refer to the turned shoe. 20050. You refer to the competition in your state- ment, which competition you say is. between the manu- facturer with machinery and the manufacturer with- out. Who are the manufacturers without machinery? - -There are several. The firm I worked for for seven years had no machine®. 20051. Would not those include home-work people?—■ No, they all work on the premises. 20052. All?—The best part. 20053. Are there any large English firms without machinery ?—Yes, plenty. 20054. Large English firms without any machinery at all?—-For the better class of goods. 20055. All done by hand ?—Yes. 20056. You say the machinery has reduced labour all round, not the foreigners ?—Yes, decidedly. 20057. But wages have gone down ?—That is a natural consequence. 20058. You say labour is reduced ?—Decidedly; it has been reduced through the machinery. 20059. Does not the competition of more people apply- ing for work have an effect, too ?—No, that is not the case, because in the busy time you can hardly get anybody to do the best work. 20060. You keep on speaking about the best work, but I am talking more of the inferior class ?—In the inferior class there is such a lot produced during the busy time that you canot get lasters to do it. In the slack time you can get plenty. 20061. Then you do not want them?—Decidedly not. 20062. Then you say that the indoor workshop has become an established fact. Since the strike in 1890 that has been so, has it not ?—About that time. 20063. It became an established fact?—Yes. 20064. But have not a number of firms broken away from that agreement?—Since then. 20065. So it is not an established fact any longer ?—• I am alluding to the time when it was, and it is sup- posed to be now. 20066. You saythe " greener " who comes over here is often sweated, and you might as well say apprentices are sweated, but is not there a material difference be- tween the apprentice and the " greener," because an apprentice has to work for regular fixed hours?— Decidedly. 20067. There is that difference between him and the ordinary " greener"?—1The only difference is that a " greener" will work until he knows the trade, and as soon as he does know the trade, he shifts to different quarters.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 725 20068. You can hardly draw a comparison between the greener " and the apprentice ?—To a certain extent only. 20069. In the last part of your evidence you say you heard one witness say he had been " sweated " for 12 years. What do you call " sweating" ?—I call " sweat- ing " where a man takes his work out and. employs several hands, and tries to get as much as he can out of them. I have known Englishmen to do the same D. Cohen. thing years ago. 20070. We had a factory inspector called before us who said that a considerable number of these people never emerged from these " sweating " dens; you would not agree with that P—No, I do not think there arc hardly any of them. 27 April 1903- Mr. S. Levy, called; and Examined. 20071. {Lord Mothschild.) You are Chairfman of the London Jewish Master Bakers' Society ?1—Yes. Our society represents aibout 60 Jewish masters. All except two are in business in the East End. My intention is to disprove the small wages alleged before the Commis- sion to be paid by the Jewish baker to his foreign em- ployees, and to show that the Jewish baker's manage- ment of labour, his pay, his time of rest, etc., migiht be an example to others. Practically all the Jewish bakers are either foreign born or the near descend>ants of foreigners. In this statement, therefore, ^Jewish •bakers" and "Jewish workmen" mean practicially ''Foreign Jewish" bakers and workmen respectively. (1.) Calculation of wages per hour as p'aid by the - Jewish biaker : —• (a.) Number of hours worked per week : — Sunday 12, Wednesday 12, Monday 12, Thursday 12, Tuesday 12, Friday 14—in all the J ewish baker work® 74 hours per week. (b.) Minimum amount of wages paid : — First hand, from £2 ; second hand, from 28s. ; third and fourth hands, from 25s. per week. (The third hand is practically an im- prover, and the fourth hand is a labourer. Both are unskilled.) (c.) This works out at the rate of about—first hand, 7d. per hour; second hand, 4§d. per hour; third and fourth hands', 4jd. per hour. (d.) There is in the different processes of the manufacture of bread at least two hours' waste per 12 hours. (e) Every man in addition to his wage receives daily bre'ad and flour enough for his family. • (f.) These two important facts taken into account raise the men's wages per hour as fol- lows : —First hand from 8d., second hand from 5fd«, third and fourth hands from «5d. I have the following : — • (2.) Proofs of my statements. (a.) Wages book signed by workman on receipt of money. (b.) Documents signed by workmen. (c.) Personal witness of workmen if necessary. (3.) The comparison of the Jewish wage and the ^Gentile wage in our trade — (a.) I can prove the Gentile wage generally is inferior to the Jewish waigei as stated above. (b.) The Gentile baker receives no other holiday or time for rest during the year except his Sunday, and even on this day he must attend to the bakehouse to see to the baking of Sunday dinners, and the prepa- ration of the dough for -the next day's bread; while the Jewish baker receives 18 other holidays in addition to his Sabbath, as follows :— the Census, and they : have increased slightly since—call them 400. 20130. (Mr. Vallance.) That would be less than two per 1,000 of population ?—Yes. 20131. !Fhat is almost infinitesimal with regard to any influence upon trade generally or labour?—Yes. 20132. Supposing instead of two per 1,000 there were ^ 400 per 1,000 in Sheffield, would you regard that as a • number which could be easily absorbed without any trade difficulty or labour difficulty ?—Yes. 20133. You think that 400 per 1,000 could be intro— duced into Sheffield without any disturbance?—-Without any effect. . . .. 20134. Without any disturbance of labour conditions ? —Yes.72fc ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr. Alfred Edward Richards, called; and Examined. Mr. A. E. 20135. (Lord Rothschild.) You live \n Sheffield, and are Richards, connected with the bespoke and contracting tailoring oa a ^71 oaq trade, which differs somewhat from the ready-made 30Aprinm5. clothing trade?__Yes. 20136. I believe you are Manager to the West End Clothiers7 Company, Limited, of 120, Queen Victoria Street, London, and you have eight branches in London and five provincial branches ?—That is right. 20137. Will you read the evidence that you have prepared for this Commission and explain it yourself P— I la.stive had 22 years' experience, of the bespoke and con- tracting tailoring trade. I am manager to* the West End dothiersf Company, Limited, who are bespoke and con- tracting tailors, and who carry on business at eight branches in London, and at five in the provinces. We have been established 14 years. We regularly employ over 1,500 hands, 20 per cent, of whom are aliens. The causes whi^h have led to* the employment of aliens in-the English tailoring trade may be said to be the drawbacks attendant on the old-fashioned methods employed by British workmen under the rules of the Amalgamated Society of Tailors. One workman made the whole of each garment with the assistance of a machinist. The workmen were unpunctual and irregular in attendance at work, and frequently intemperate. The custom of payment by "time log sheets" was a. continual source of friction between the tailors and their employer or his foreman. 20138. {Chairman.) What is the meaning of "time, log sheets'7?—They have a system by which they reckon, a coat or a job made at 4^d. per hour, or 5d., or 5id., or 6d., but although it is 4^d., 5d., or 6d., as the case may be, it does not mean an hour of 60! minutes, but it is a time log sheet. It refers to doing the particular portion of the work for which they allow an hour, which means 4£d., or 5d., or S^d., as the case m ay be. 20139. It is a composite thing—time, and so much work done in the time?—Yes. The method brought into this country by alien tailors at a fixed daily wage was the manufacture of clothes (by several distinct workmen, one taking the tailoring, another the press- ing? a third the machining, and a fourth the finishing; each' being experts 'n their own line. Better .and quicker work was the result. Employers were able to calculate in advance the exact cost of making garments, which could not be calculated under the old-fashioned time sheet^ sysfc&m. The knowledge of the cost of produc- tion is of great advantage to the bespoke or contract- ing tailor. British labour in our trade was found un- satisfactory for the three reasons stated above (1) Pay- ment by time log sheet, (2) unpunctuality and irre- gularity of the workmen, (3) intemperate habits of the workmen. On the other hand the alien tailor is paid by salary per day or week, which is more satisfactory than the time log sheet, and is regular in his attendance at business, punctual, and temperate. As regards the irregularity of the British tailor as compared with the alien, at Sheffield in the iSt. Leger week 13 out of 14 of our British tailors, working under the society's rules, took a week's holiday, and went to Doncaster to the 'St. Leger. 20140. Is that an evil or a benefit ? They get a holi- day. Do you regard that in your trade as disastrous ? —It is very disastrous to us. By doing so they delayed the Corporation work which we 'had on at that time. We were under a contract with the Corporation to get this work through by a particular time, and through their, leaving off work it was delayed a week. We should have been fined, but we were not. We fre- quently have the police called in to our workshops at Sheffield to remove drunken English tailors. During the execution of one contract in the space of six weeks the police were called in three times. The British tailor seldom works on Monday. As regards wages, the alien actually earns 50 per cent, more than the British tailor. His average earnings per working day of 10i hours, exclusive of intervals for refreshment, working under trade union rules and regulations, are 8s. 6d. per day. As regards the quality of the work done'the aliens are fully equal to the British tailor. This is shown by the rate of wages paid. 20141. Are these London rates or only Sheffield rates ?-—Sheffield. As regards the Sheffield Cprpora- fcidh contracts, referred to by the witness Mr. Murfin. We are the ^rm referred to, who now hold three Sheffield Corporation contracts. Wfc employ 100 tailors and. tailoresses in the town of Sheffield, 13 only of whom are aliens. One of the 13 receives 6s. a day, the others* average 8s. 6d. per day, the highest being 12s. 6d. per day. We pay for overtime to both aliens and British tailors, at the rate of 9d. an hour for tailors and 6d. for tailoresses. 20142. Is that time and a quarter or time and a half ? —No, we pay them so much a day, that is the agreed rate we have with them. 20143. What relation has it to the hour?—It would, vary, because some of them work at 6s. and some go up to 12s. 6d. a day. Before giving us the contracts, members of the Sheffield Corporation inspected our' workrooms, and previously we had frequently received surprise visits from them. We are, of course, sub- ject to the bye-laws of the Corporation and to the local authority as regards ventilation, sanitation, and other- matters affecting the public health and the regulation of workpeople. The alien tailor is thus of great use to the employer of labour in this country. We could not have established our very successful business in the way we have without the assistance of the alien tailor. 20144. You have! only 13 of them?—That refers to Sheffield only. 20145. How many have you got in London?—The average is 20 per cent., taking the branches round. First-class firms of tailors in the West End of London: and in all large cities employ alien labour because it is good and reliable, and not because it is cheap. It is not. I can mention names df wished, but I prefer not to do so. 20146. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand that you: employ 1,500 hands in the whole business ?—Yes. % 20147. Twenty per cent, of them are foreigners?— Yes. 20148. What class of foreigners are these?—They would be very much mixed ; some of them are British born Jews. 20149. The British born Jew is not a foreigner, is he?—No, 20150. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Twenty per cent, of them are aliens?—Yes. 20151. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The 20 per cent. I am? talking about ?—I should take those as foreign Jews. 20152. Not British born Jews?—No. 20153. All Jewish?—Yes. 20154. Have you got any Swedes or others in your employment?—Not in Sheffield ; there may be some in the other branches which I am not very familiar with. 20155. You are only speaking of Sheffield from your own personal knowledge now?—I am speaking ofr Sheffield especially. 20156. You would say roughly these 20 per cent, are* nearly all Jews?—Yes. 201-57. And all foreign Jews ?—Yes. 20158. Are you an advocate or an opponent of trades« unions generally ?—I am an advocate. 20159. Still you criticise these time log sheets, which I really do not understand, and other methods of the • trades unions?—Yes. ' 20160. You do not follow the trades unions in those respects?—That is only one branch; there are three* societies. The Amalgamated Society of Tailors is work- ing on a very old-fashioned system, and a system which1 is out of date altogether. 20161. Are there three trades unions ?—Yes. 20162. Will you name them?—There is the Amalga- mated Society of Tailors, the International Society of Tailors, Machiners, and Pressers, and therej is. the * women's union, the Tailors and Tailoresses' Ttade and Benefit Society. 20163. In the first of those societies are there foreign members ?—Yes. 20164. In the union?—Yes. 20165. How do they; manage to work on a different' system than the time log sheet ?—They * work on the-' same system. 20166. The foreigners der there'?—Yes.-.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 729 20167. So your criticism with regard to these people on that particular point of the time log sheets would apply to foreigners in that society as well as to the English?—Quite so. 20168. Now with regard to the second society, the Internationa^ are foreigners included in that too ?— They are principally foreigners. 20169. They work on a different system to the other unions ?—Totally different. 20170. Are the hours different?—Yes, they are shorter hours. 20171. And are the charges different?—Yes, they are better wages ; there is a better system of work altogether. 20172. And not on the time log sheet ?—No. 20173. What are the relations between these two anions ?—Very bad. 20174. One does not approve of the other ?—That is right. 20175. How many hands do you employ in Sheffield ? —About 100. 20176. And 20 of them are foreigners ?—Thirteen. 20177. Do those 13 include men and women?—Yes, 12 men and one woman. 20178. You rather seem to favour the foreigners generally as opposed to the older English workmen In the trade unions?—Yes, I do. 20179. But there the number is extremely insigni- ficant ; you have only 100 altogether and 13 only of fchean are foreigners?—Yes. 20180. If the English employee that you refer to is so intemperate and irregular in his hours, and so on, how do you manage then if you have only 13 foreigners ? —It has been a case of weeding. 20181. Do you find that these 100 are giving you satisfaction ?—-Now. 20182. They are quite as good as the others ?—The point is this, that in the waistcoat room there is a proportion of women, who, of course, are not likely to be as irregular as the men. 20183. How many women are there?—In the waist- coat room I should think 'a. matter of 20 to 25 women and girls. 20184. Out of 100?—Yes. 20185. So we get 25 women, 13 foreigners, and the rest men ?—Yes. 20186. But these men that you employ now, do these criticisms with regard to the English workmen apply to the men in your employment now?—I am bound to say they are not as regular in their attendance and work as the Jews. 20187. They take a turn off at Doncaster, too ?—Yes, we have more changes with them. In my own particu- lar branch we hare men who have been with me four or five years, and I have not one English tailor who has been with me for that time. They come in and start work, and they will tell you their back aches in a very short time. 20188. Have these foreigners in your employ been in England for some considerable time ?—Some of them. 20189. Then they all talk English?—Yes. 20190. With regard to the total of 1,500 hands, how <\o you work out the figures of 20 per cent, of aliens ? How have you got these figures ?—I have taken the average of the branches. 20191. How are you able to distinguish between the British and the foreign Jew?—I have made it my busi- ness to inquire amongst the branches and the managers m Sheffield, and one or two of the branches I have been to; and I have seen the captains of the workshops and ^ascertained through them. 20192. But all their people aw asking under trades union regulations ?—Yes. Richards. 20193. So that none of the evik of which we have 30 April 1903? had complaints here with regard to home work and J___ long hours, bad wages, and sweating, and so on, apply to your business at all?—They could not do. 20194. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is all the work done in your workshops ?—Yes. 20195. You do not give out any ?—We do not give out any. 4 20196. (Major Evans-^Gor'don.) It is perfectly well regulated work both for English and foreigners?— Quite so. 20197. Do you say that the success of your very suc- cessful business is largely, or entirely, due to this 20 per cent, of foreign labour that you employ?—I say it has been a considerable help to us for this reason : nt times of race meetings or any sports in th* town, n«r iualter what work we have on, whether contr ,ct work;. funeral work, weddings, and so on, the English tailor;., as a rule, has left us. 20198. (Chairman.) That is in Sheffield ? — Nov, generally speaking. 20199. But it is not so much in London. Yorkshire- men will go to race meetings and sports ?—I am speaking: generally of my experience in the trade. I found that out in nearly all the towns I have been to, that when we have had Jewish tailors and English tailors working, when we had a rush of work we could depend upon th® Jew before the British tailor. 20200. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They are not so much ■ addicted to sports, but what about the Jewish holidays ?' 1 —They are very awkward. 20201. Is not that a discount off the advantages?— There are only a few clays we have to consider in the year, 20202. Do you know anything about the habits of these foreign people in their homes ? Are they addicted tct cards, do you think?—Yes, I think so. 20203. They take out in card-playing what the English- man does on the race course ?—I do not know to wh^i . extent, but they do play cards; there is no dou^t about that. 20204. (Chairman.) That is, out of hours; they do not. stop away playing cards ?—No, and I have never found them playing cards in the workroom, or introducing "; drink into the workroom. ^0205. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are there any young meia learning the trade in the shape of apprentices, or other- wise ?—Yes, I have one young man with me at the pre-..... sent time who is learning machining. 20206. _ (Chairman.) You say in your evidence they are experts in their own line; these people all come to your as skilled workmen, and they know their work before- they come?—Usually it is so. 20207. We have had the term used here " greener.'5" i ou have none of those in your business?_'No. 20208. (Lord Rothschild.) Would you consider that the' alien or the foreigner has introduced any particular ' branch 111 the tailoring industry?—He has undoubtedly- introduced the sub-division of labour. 20209. And you could not get on without the sub- division of labour ? We could get on without it, but we can get 011 a great deal better with it. 20210. You are enabled to make cheaper clothes bv the sub-division of labour ?—Yes. 20211. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is that at all accompanied by an increase m the use of machinery ?—Oh, yes; but there is not more machining put into a Jewish garment than into an English garment. 2023.2. But does the sub-division of labour go hand-in- hand at all with the advance of machinery ?_No I do, not think it does. J Rev. Stewart Headlam, called; and Examined. 20213. (Lord Rothschild.) I believe you are Chairman of the Evening Continuation Schools Committee of the .London School Board ?^I am. .... . , _20^- You are prepared to give some details about those schools?—Yes. t 20215. I think I am right in stating that when you first started them you had &onie slight difficulty with 6144. the Education Department, and that you had to get them to consider English as a foreign language ?_Yes teachSgof E^isi!! ^ ^ the' Simpi; 20216 I only mention that matter generally. Perhaps you TOuld like to giye your own evidence?—I may state 1 ^ave about 14 or 15 years' experience on the 4 Z Rev. S* Headlam„730 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMM GRATION Mev. S, Hcadlam. 30 April 190I>. I on don School Board, and I have a pretty good know- 1 dge both of the day schools and of the evening schools. Although what I have to say to-day has mainly refer- ence to the evening schools, yet I think I can. say from personal knowledge that the aliens in the day schools are thoroughly up to the average of the English lad or girl; in some cases I should say they get on more quickly. 20217. (Chairman.) When you say evening schools, does that mean continuation schools for primary educa- tion or secondary education schools?—That is the ques- tion the courts have been trying to settle. We mean any work done under the London School Board in the evening. 20218. What is the work done ?—I can give a list of Various subjects. It is very comprehensive, and I think it might be called secondary or it might be called primary, but with regard to the day schools, I wish to say I haveliad experience, especially, of Russian children, who have really come into the school not knowing any English, and by the time they have got half-way up the .school are able to do what we call two standards in a Tear. The ordinary English child only does, one standard -'in a year. That is especially with reference to Russian ^children. 20219. (Lord Rothschild.) Mostly Jews, I suppose?— " Yes, mostly Jews, but not always Jews. With reference to evening schools, there is a large section of , schools in Whitechapel, mainly attended for the most part by Polish Jews and Russian Jews, and by Roumanians, and others, who have only been in London a very short time, and they come along to our . evening schools in the most eager way, and the regu- larity of their attendance, and the excellence of their conduct is most remarkable. We find they are always anxious to learn, and they get on. really, considering their difficulties, very quickly with their work. 20220. (Chairman.) What are the nationalities of those children you are now speaking of?—Many of these are not children at all, many of them are adults, but the majority of them are young—people between the age of 14 and 21; still there is a good proportion. 20221. What should you say as to the nationalities of these?—I should say Russian Jews and Polish Jews, and I think there axe some Roumanians and a few Germans. I am now dealing with Whitechapel only, but elsewhere we have Italians and a certain proportion of French, whom we deal with; but the schools which are mainly attended by these foreign Jews are Berners Street, in St. George's in the East; Commercial Street, Whitechapel; Deal Street, Mile End New Town; Gravel Lane, Houndsditch ; Old Castle Street, White- chapel ; and Rutland Street, Mile End New Town, and others. 20222. Perhaps you will put that table in, because that gives the totals?—Yes, there are some 500 odd at each of these schools—more in some cases and less in a few cases. 20223. They go up as high as 899?—Yes, in Settle Street. Then I should like to say that though many of these come quite as beginners, after they have been with us some little time they really get extremely keen about advanced work, especially about English litera- ture. We ;had the other day a competition (it is going on now—in fact, each evening) in dramatic literature. They take scenes from " Julius Caesar " and scenes from " Much Ado about Nothing," and scenes from " Henry V.," and I certainly think that one of the very best schools (the competition has not yet been decided upon) in that competition is. Rutland Street, which is mainly composed of Jews who have been a little time with us, of course. I only say that to show that as soon as they get at home here they thoroughly begin to absorb some of the best things of English life, especially English literature, and they seem very keen about it. 20224. Will you put in the names of the schools and the numbers ?—Yes. The following are the details : — Sex of Number of Pupils admitted to the Schools, according to A in the Session 1901-2. Lges, Name of Schools. Pupils. Under 14. 14 to 15. 15 to 16. 16 to 17. 17 to 18. 18 to 21. Over 21. Total. In the East End. Jierner Street, St. George's-in-the- East. Males Females - 32 74 94 65 95 39 56 27 46 109 107 158 39 504 437 Commercial Street, Whitechapel Males 4 164 117 80 52 219 256 892 Deal Street, Mile End New Town - Males Females - - 32 80 56 110 54 130 41 81 109 137 229 94 521 632 Gravel Lane, Houndsditch Males Females - 4 44 27 64 44 45 46 29 28 43 44 43 21 272 210 ;01d Castle Street, Whitechapel Males Females - 4 50 54 77 100 61 85 37 70 126 150 132 56 483 519 Rutland Street, Mile End New Town Males and Females. - 80 90 69 47 81 12 379 ^Settles Street, Stepney Males Females - 5 100 21 81 88 58 82 66 60 263 185 326 57 899 493 vSmith Street, Mile End Old Town - Males Females - 1 76 13 67 73 20 56 19 37 10 49 41 5 233 234 In the City. :St. Peter's, Hatton Garden Males Females - 4 34 41 60 25 66 32 47 24 . 127 36 185 209 523 367 In the West End. 4i Pulteney " School, Berwick Street, Soho, Males and Females. 6 71 87 70 30 73 99 436 Whitfield Street, Tottenham Court Road. Males 1 31 14 24 14 26 124 234 20225. The highest number in these schools is 899 in Settles Street, Stepney. What would be about the pro- portion of the aliens?—By alien do you mean Jew not naturalised? Is that the distinction? 20226. You had better take it in that way ?—I should say about two-tihirds of them are not naturalised, though it is only more or less guesswork. 20227. (Lord Bothschild.) Some of them are natu- ralised ?—Yes. 20228. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) And some of therm areMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 731 born in this country ?—In that particular school, Settle Street, not many have been born in this country. 20229. {Chairman.) Then the next highest is Com- mercial Street, 892. Does about the same proportion apply?—I should say so in all these schools except Rutland Street. Rutland Street I should think con- tained about half English people. 20230. That is smaller—that is 379 ?■—That is rather a more advanced school where we deal especially with commercial subjects and literary subjects, but I should say vthat on the whole about two-thirds of those are Jews who find a difficulty in speaking the English language at present. The table I have set out in my evidence states, as far as I know, the numbers of persons attending the evening schools. 20231. (Mr. Vallance.) With reference to Deal Street, you have 1,153 scholars?—Male and.female. 20232. Could you form any rough estimate as to how many of those would be foreign children?—I should say in Deal Street about two-thirds of them would be. 20233. (Lord Rothschild.) They are not children?— No. 20234. (Mr. Vallance.) Scholars ?—Yes. 20235. And in Commercial Street ?—I should think there are even more in Commercial Street. 20236. So the majority of children in these two schools would be foreign scholars ?—Yes. 20237. (Lord Rothschild.) They are persons who have been engaged in working all day ?—They come straight away from business very eagerly, not to lose a minute of the work. That is the thing that strikes me ; they are so much more eager about the work than some of our own people are. 20238. (Chairman.) Does that apply to the different nationalities? I have always understood that Poles are quick in learning languages and other subjects. Do you draw a distinction between a Polish child and a Russian child?—I find Russians just as keen, and the Germans too. It applies to the Russians, the Germans, and the Poles, I think. I have a long list here of every subject taken in those schools. 20239. I do not think that that is very material on this question?—I have also a statement from the Government Inspector testifying to the value of the work. 20240. Unless it bears on the aliens I do not think we need have it ?—'May I also say a word about the aliens in St. Peter's, Hatton Garden. We run an even- ing school in the school connected with St. Peter's Church House; there are about 800 or 900 pupils there, and I suppose about half of those are Italians. We find that they are not quite so eager as the Jews, but they are very regular in. their attendance, and I think they really benefit by being in the schools. 20241. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do they learn the lan- guage as quickly as the others?—I do not think they learn it quite so quickly. 20242. (Chairman.) Are your teachers there English, or must you have foreign teachers ?—In the schools where there are a good many Jews we always take care to have a majority of the teachers who can speak what is called Yiddish, and in the Italian schools I suppose we have two or three teachers who can speak Italian fluently. Then in Whitfield Street, Tottenham. Court Road, we have a small number of French workmen who come very regularly. I suppose out of a school of 234 there are some 50 of these who are Frenchmen, and who come regularly ; they are rather poor French- Rev. S. men, but they work away hard at the English language. Iieadlam. Then at the Pulteney School, Soho, there are some . German tailors who come pretty regularly, but the main evidence I have to give has reference to the schools in the East End. What I want to say is that we are all of us immensely struck by the eagerness and good conduct of the pupils who come to these schools. 20243. Putting that eagerness in direct comparison and contrast with the British child, how do you rank them?—-It is much better. It is an example to us all as far as that goes, and they seem on the whole clean and fairly well nurtured. 20244. Are prizes given?—Yes, prizes are given. We have cut out our prizes now for the simpler things and given prizes for more advanced things. They do not get those, but they do get prizes for regular attendance. 20245. Do you know how the prizes go in the primary schools ?—I should say with regard to the prizes for regular attendance you would find that the foreigners are above the average certainly, and I may also say we have lately got them to take an interest in gymnastics* It is at first a very difficult thing to get a Jewish boy to go in for gymnastics, but now they are keen about it, and are doing very well in the competitions we have in gymnastics. 20246. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have they many oppor- tunities of playing cricket and games of that sort?— There is not much of that in the East End schools. 20247. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you have to say which you think will assist us ?—No. It is only general evidence of that which I wish to give. 20248. (Mr. Vallance.) You have spoken of the Deal Street and the Commercial Street Schools. If two- thirds or more than two-thirds of those under instruc- tion are foreigners, are we to infer from that that the foreign population, seeing that that is disproportionate to the population of those districts, are keener for this advanced instruction than the natives ?—Yes, I thiiik we must infer that. I am glad they are keen, of course, but I am sorry the others are not keener. 20249. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you know whether those Jewish children are employed to a very great extent out of school hours ? Do they come tired to the school, or anything of that sort?—I do not think so, but. I really have no> personal knowledge. 20250. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The general gist of your evidence is that we are educating a very large foreign population in the East End of London ?—Yes. 20251. Both in day and night schools ?—Yes. 20252. Very large?—Very large. 20253. And that they are superior educational material to the English product?—Yes, I think they are. They are very diligent in their attendance, and very bright too. 20254. You say the children in Rutland Street, for instance, in your opinion, would compare favourably with the children in Dempsey Street ?—Yes, certainly, I shouldjsay so. 20255. Do you know the Church schools m that dis- trict like the Red Coat School, and so on ?—No, I do not know the Church schools. By " children " I always mean. evening school pupils. 20256. You refer to the day schools as well ?—Yes, but; with regard to the evening school pupils many of them1 cannot be called children. Mr. Joseph Finn, called; and Examined. 20257. (Lord Rothschild.) You were born in Russian Poland ?—Ye&. 20258. You arrived here 23 years ago without any occupation ?—Y es. 20259. Perhaps you will read your own evidence and explain it?—Is it necessary that I should read my biography, and give the details of how 1 came here? 20260. (Chairman.) You had better state what your experience has been. You worked in tailors' shops for eight years in the United States?—Yes, and for six years in Leeds. 20261. In 1893 you came to London and took a portion as paid secretary of the Mantle Makers' Union for two Mr. J. Finn years?—Yes. — 20262. You were in the centre of the foreign Jewish labour movement?—Yes. 20263. Since then you have been in business, but you siay you have been in continuous touch with the foreign and Jewish labour movement, auditing books, lecturing, and so on ?—Yes. 20264. Now will you go on with your statement?— First I deal with the classification of Jewish immigrants. In order to refute the ridiculous statement made by Mr. Arnold White that many Jews are induced to come CI' 4. 4 z 2jtCOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION:' Mr. J. Finn, here by. the charities of the Jewish Board of Guardians, and some Jewish; philanthropists, I will to the best of my 30 April 1903, knowledge classify them. (1) The first Jewish immi- ■H!'■"» grants were young men of 21 who escaped military service. This might sqund unpatriotic, but when we take into consideration the statu® of the Jew in Russia, that, however ca.pable he might be, he cannot become an officer, and, what is worse, that he is not allowed to live in the country for which he is asked to shed his last drop of blood—when we take these facts into consideration he is more than justified in trying to escape military service. These young men very often bring over their •sisters and their sweethearts after a year or two. (2) When the Russian Government imposed a fine of 300 roubles on the father whose son escaped, many for whom the payment of such a fine would have been a .great blow sold out all their belongings and came over. Such people generally bring a little capital with them. . 20265. That fine of 300 roubles is a, fine with regard to escaping the military service', I suppose?—Yes, my Lord. Then (3) artisans and' small traders, who in Russian Poland owing to the limited area of settlement, in Galioia owing to clerical and anti-Semitic agitations, and in Roumania. owing to the special laws, are unable to earn a living, emigrate to America and England. (4) Political offenders.—Of these the largest, percentage are workmen who simply took part in the new trade union -movement, which in Russia is a political offence. These four classes constitute at least 90 per cent, of the Jewish -'immigrants. When we take into consideration the cost -"to come to England ? and the natural reluctance to leave -one's native place for a strange country, no reasonable ....."person will believe1 that the few shillings from the. Board of Guardians will over-balance' these difficulties. Then I .- deal with the passport system. It has been suggested that only such immigrants be admitted who will - show a passport signed bv the British Consul. ' -.Such a proposition, in my humble opinion, would only benefit the Russian Government. What would the Russian Government not do to close Eng- land's door against political offenders and those who ^escape military service ? Yet the passport system would tonjy affect the above-mentioned classes, and would be an enormous, almost unbearable, burden on the honest, simple, industrious working man, for only he would try and obtain the passport in the legally prescribed way, and what this would mean for a poor man in a small town only those will realise who know the working of . iRussian officialdom from real life,- but the real criminals, the coiners, forgers, incendiaries, brothel keepers, bogus K>ompany promoters, and the like of them, who can afford to spend a. couple of hundred roubles, will find anv ways to obtain a passport. £0266- A false passport ?—A false passport. That the , present anti-alien agitation is not the cause of excessive immigration can be proved by the fact that in 1886 there was a similar agitation; instead of a. British brothers' league we then had a fair traders' league. Londoners will perhaps remember how the meeting which the last- mentioned league called for on February 8th, 1886, in "Trafalgar Square, ended in a riot and the breaking of KS-hop windows in the West End. If time would permit j[ could bring to light some very unfair means which were then employed to stir up the then agitation, which ended in a Royal Commission on Sweating. Who are the re- "striotiohistsi P Fortunately those working men who ^clamour for the restriction of alien immigration form an "insignificant part of the English working class. About nine years ago the Trade Union Congress, through the agitation of some delegates of the Boot and Shoe Opera- tives' Union, passed a resolution for the restriction of alien immigration, and the Jewish workers got most of the abuse. The Jewish trade unions felt the stab badly ; they called a conference of the then existing ten unions, and appointed a defence committee. The committee decided to call a mass meeting in the Great Assembly rr-K> , . Hall to protest against the attack and to argue the case - .out with our English fellow-workers. They also decided issue a kind of manifesto, and appointed me to write it. I wrote a leaflet entitled " The Voice of the Aliens." This leaflet was signed by the ten unions and distributed #mong trade unionists. Leeds and Manchester also dis- tributed several thousand copies. The leaflet! and the m&ss meeting opened the eyes of the; English trade unionists, so much so that members of the executive of the, London Trades Council held , a meeting on behalf of the English trade isaksaists to protest against the Cardiff resolution in the sain© hall a few weeks after our meeting took place. 202157. (Sir Ken.dm Digby.) What year, was this?—I think it, TOS about nine years ago. I was at that time delegate to the Trades Council from the Mantle-makers' Union, and p moved to ask i-he next Congress to rescind the anti-alien resolution. My motion, was carried by a, large maj ority. At the next Congress that resolution did not appear on the 'agenda. 20268. ,(Chairman.) Which resolution did not appear on the agenda ?—The Cardiff resolution. Ever since nothing lias been'heard in Trade Union quarters about restricting immigration, and no ill-feeling was any- where in labour circles manifested against alien work- men. I have here a cutting from the "Telegraph" about the Independent Labour Congress, where they also spoke very much against this agitation for alien immigration. 20269. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where was that Congress held?—The recent Congress held by the Independent Labour Party in York. Unfortunately, the present anti- alien agitation has been taken up by the gallery, and there are always to be found those who play to the gallery.. It has been said that we, the foreigners, are taking the bread out of the English working-mian's mouth. We foreigners are not merely machines. We take work, and we give work ; all that we. earn, by our laibour we, spend in this country. We—the Jewish work- men especially—have-not come here to work for several years and to live like pigs during the time in order to hoard up a certain sum and return to our native place ; we .spend the greatest part of what we earn, and what Wc manage to save is either kept for a rainy day or as stepping-stone to a. higher step on the social ladder. My experience among the Jewish working-men enables me to prove thiat, far from taking bread out of English working-men's mouths, we have put bread in them. 20270. (Qhairman.) What do you mean by that?— That we have created work for many English working- men, and, so doing, we have given them bread. 20271. Is that in the tailoring trade especially ?— I am going to mention later on all trades, that art affected. The English; mantle cutters in the City, who work there for 35s. a week and in the evening coune to the foreign Jewish mantle makers in the East End and earn from 2s. 6d. to 3s. per hour, ought to come and testify to my statement. We have developed the ready-made clothing trade, the second-class bespoke trade, the ladiies' tailor-made costume and mantde trade, cap, slipper, cheap shoes, and cigarette trades, and middle-class furniture trade. In these trades thousands of English, women are employed, and in many cases they are cutting down prices badly. When I was secretary of the Mantle Makers' Union I often had to attend to disputes in City firms where foreign men and English women work under one roof, where the women made the same jacket for half the price. Members of the Upper Machiners' Union complained to me that on several occasions, when they struck against low prices, English women took the work out and made it at home. In the box trade English women take work out at prices retused by Jewish women. To return to the subject of native workers who are engaged in trades developed by us, I must point out that in the men's clothing trade the greatest part of trousers, and vests are made by English women. That the development of the clothing trade gives much employment to English weavers and spinners is ob- vious,/ and is well illustrated by the fact related to me by officials of the Leeds Tailors' Union, that when in 1888 the Jewish tailors struck, the English workers in the cloth mills were put on half time. It must also be noted that all the clerical work connected with all the industries we developed is done by Englishmen, besides the numerous travellers and agents. Taking all into consideration, I can with safety repeat that instead of taking bread out of the natives' mouths, wa put some into them. I will now consider each industry separately and point out the part we, the foreign Jews, played in their development. The ladies' costume and mantle trade. From 1893 to 1895 I was secretary to the Mantle Makers' Union, and during that time I acquired some knowledge about the trade. I came in contact with most of the workmen, their masters, and some City firms., , The number of workmen in this trade at that time was about 1,500; from 600 to 703 were organised ; now the number of workmen in the trade, is about double, but the number of organised about the same. The reason of the weakness of the organisation is partly duei to the lack of efficient leaders and organisers—this holds good for all Jewish.MINUTES. OF EVIDENCE. 733 organisations—'and partly to the intimacy between . Jewish masters . and men. The masters of to-day have been workers yesterday, and even strong and • devout members, of the Union, and many workmen of to-day will be masters to-morrow. Some, after . having been masters and failed to succeed, become workmen again. This state of affairs will1 last so long as the trade will be in a transitory period, and until it will develop to the factory system proper, like the ready-made clothing trade developed in Leeds. A third reason for the weakness of the organisation is the antagonistic interests of the workmen themselves. The machiners and pressers are working by piece, the basters by week, the under pressor is employed by the presser, and the plain miachiner by the principal machine*. We have here five different working men, «9€ich one having a natural grudge against the other. The machiner works by piece, hence it is for his in- terest to hurry up. In order to keep paioe with him the barter must hurry also., although it is not for his interest to do so, as he is working by the day. The presser has a grudge against the baster because the -latter gives him the coat to press in a state not to his liking; for instance, the edges are not straight enough, the shape is not well worked out; the 'baster leaves T-these finishing touches to the presser, to which the latter objects, as he is working by the piece, and, therefore, objects to all labour which he considers not his duty to do. The plain machiners and under pressers have complaints against the chief machiners ^and head pressers. It therefore follows that when people are working under such conditions natural nnity is impossible; they can be united artifically, sd to say, when proper organisers and good speakers talks "them in hand, but these are at present lacking. 1 ^entered into these details to show how shallow are the reasonings of some people who, seeing that at times the Jewish Unions are weak, blame the character of 4he men for it. These philosophers did not take the trouble to study the matter in detail; they do not even 3cnow the secret, that some English Unions are strong, Aot because the English working man is of a more fraternal disposition, but because the trades they are engaged in have developed to the factory system proper, Namely, large numbers of workmen are working under one roof, they are all working under one system—by -she day or hour; they, therefore, hiave all one interest :n common. That my reasoning is based on facts can foe proved by Leeds. There the ready-made and part , aof the second-class order trade,' employing foreigners, liave developed to the factory system proper; they all work by the day, from eight to eight; they are all directly employed by the masters, and their Union is, therefore, as good and as strong as any English Union. I will return to the development of the trade and -show the r61e played by the Jewish workmen. I am speaking now of the mantle trade. I will quote &, part of a circular which, when secretary of ths Mantle Makers' Union, I addressed to the firms in the "City : " Germany atnd France, though behind England in the evolution of other trades, were ahead of her in i>he mantle trade. They ha,ve created a new branch of the trade in question. They have combined the style and 'workmanship of the bespoke tailor-made with nearly the cheapness of the cheap ready-made. How get 3s. 6d. per dozen for finishing; now the greatest part of the finishing is done by the above-mentioned machines. Even in the making of the uppers the machinery has been much improved, and dispenses with much of human labour. There is the binding machine and the double needle. The con- sequences are that both native and alien are in a bad condition. The foreigner, who is more energetic and pushing, either gets hold of some other occupation or offers to take work out from -those firms who either have not yet got machinery, or makes a class of work for wfoich hand work is preferred. Such home workers have lately increased. In spite of bad prices, they manage to knock out about 30s. a week. They can neither be called sweaters nor sweated, as they only employ their own selves; only now -and then one ha® an assistant. They work late in the night because they start work late in the day. They lose about three hours a day in fetching and delivering their work. Mr. AmstelPs errors- 20276. (Chairman.) I do not care much about that. You must compress thlsi a little ?—A great part of it I have struck out, but I wish to point out a great error. The figures are themselves wrong. Mr. Amstell said that a team of six English workmen, with the assistance of the Bos-ton lasting machine, will last 860 pairs of shoes in 54 hours, and will earn together £9 9s., and that the Jewish l-asteirg will last the same number in 84 hours and will earn £8 Is. 31. I will not dispute his figures about what an English laster will do in 54 hours, as I have made no inquiries into the correct- ness of his figures in the case of English workers, but- with regard to his figures re the Jewish lasters I have made careful inquiries, and I find that he is very far from the truth. Six Jewish lasters working together will last 18 pairs, in an hour easily, lasting by hand. They would therefore make in a week of not 84 hours, but 60 hours, 1,080. If they will work with the Consol lasting; machine they will make 30 dozen in a regular day of 10 hours—'that is, they will make in 60 hours 2,160 pairs. In view of these figures I think that the Boot and Shoe Operatives' Union might have selected a better-informed representative. 20277. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Whom are you speaking of?—Mr. Amstell. 20278. (Major Evans-Gordon.) He'has been all his life in the trade?—He said that the aliens did not use ma- chinery in any of their processes. I would recommenl him to pay a visit to a typical Jewish factory in 14, Casson Street, Old Montague Street. The employer's name is Mindle. He is a Polish Jew. He was one of the strikers for indoor labour, and now he employs about 100 workmen. 20279. Mr. Amstell was speaking of workshops. He was not speaking of factories at all ?—What difference does it make? 20280. It is quite another point?—Then may I pro- ceed with the men's clothing trade? The men's cloth- ing trade can be divided into three principal divisions and two sub-divisions: (1) The ready-made, (2) the second-class order work, (3) the hiah-class bespoke. No. 1 can be sub-divided into: (a) the better-quality men's coats and youths' coats of the higher sizes; (b) the commoner class of men's and youths' and the juvenile. (a) Is made mostly by foreign Jewish workers in large Jewish workshops. When I speak of this sub-division. I have in view chiefly Leeds, because it is the classical city of the ready-made clothing trade. (by Is made mostly by English women in factories. Many of the Jewish workshops are real factories. In such workshops are employed from 100 to 200 hands. The hours of labour are from eight to eight, with an hour for dinner and half an hour for tea : closed on Saturdays. Sundays, the hours are from eight to six. Winter-time, when it is busy, and the hands are em- ployed the whole week, they work on Friday only till the Sabbath sets in, which makes the day a very short one. Sub-division of labour has reached there the highest point. The machinery part alone is divided into five or six parts. £2 per week is the maximum wage foreign, and 30s. the minimum for machiners, baster s, and pressers; for under-machiners and under- pressers, about 25s. the maximum; and from 12s. to 15s. the minimum. The latter are only learners, and do not remain long in this position. English women are also employed in these workshops,, mostly as finishers and button-hole hands. The former earn from 8s. to 14s. per week ; the latter from 20s. to 30s. They also work as machinists, and they receive- equal wages with men for equal work. Besides; sub- division (&), which is made mostly by English women inside the warehouses, they are gradually encroaching- upon sub-division (a) ; so much so, that some firms are- making all their work inside with English women. Such firms at first employ inside a set of Jewish' workers, or a Jewish foreman, who teaches the women the Jewish system. As a result, the "greater part of the tailoring trade in Leeds is really in the hands of English women, and that the Jews have only enough work now left them to average from three to four days- a week the year round. A comparison : In the Jewish workshops, English women get the same wages as men? for the same work. Inside the English warehouses they are making the garments for less than half the price- that would have to be paid to Jewish tailors. In the Jewish workshops the employers supply the silk cotton ; in the English warehouses the women have to buy it from the firm, paying 50 per cent, more than they could get it outside. In the Jewish workshops, when there is not enough work to keep them going for the day, they can go home, and come back when work is prepared. In the English warehouses they are* actually locked in from morning till noon and from noon till 6 p.m., whether there is work or not. Whilst division (1) was being transferred from the Jew to the" English woman, the former began to develop a new trade—division (2). Twenty or 30 years ago a suit made to order was unknown to a working man; such a suit cost £5 or £6. To-day a suit madie to order can? be h.ad for £2, and only an expert can tell the differ- ence between the one worn by the working man for £2 and the one worn by the capitalist for six or eight guineas. The classical city for this division i& London, and the greatest number of all the Jewish tailors in the East End are employed in this trade. As- these kinds of garments are issued from shops, and' not from warehouses, and each shopkeeper prefers to have a tailor to himself, it consequently follows that the workshops in which they are made are small. As people order for themselves suits only in certain seasons and not regularly the whole year round, con- sequently, the workmen have an abnormal busy season and abnormal slack season. Considering the facts, that if the workman will not earn enough in the busy time to pull him through the slack, he will starve, and that all the work given out by the shopkeeper must be ready in a given time, it is easy to understand the reason of the long working hours. The machiner and presser work by the piece and the baster by the day. The machiner gets Is. 2d. per coat, the presser Is. In a busy week they can pp.rn £3, and more ; it all depends upon the number of hours they are working. The talk about 18 and 20 hours a day regularly is a ridiculous- exaggeration. About the hours, I will say something- later on. The baster is being paid from 8s. to 10s. a day, from 7 a.m. tin about 9 p.m. As a rule, he eats- his breakfast in the workshop, has an hour for dinner,, and no specified length of time for tea. When he works- longer he gets paid extra. The foreign Jewish tailors in the West End are employed in the upper part of division 2 and the lower part of division 3. 20281. (Chairman.) You really must compress this: statement. We are going into details which do not assist us in the least. I think we understand your views on the subject of the tailoring trade ?—I simply want to illustrate how the Jew prefers developing one thing. (Chairman.) That is sub-division, and we have had a, good deal of evidence- upon it. •20282. (Lord Bothschild.) You might as well state the average wages in the various trades ?—I have got these details from the Secretary of the Mantle-makers' Union, and he, personally, got it from the men, and there are their names and addresses. f< Wages of foreign Jewish wood-carvers." This I got from the Secretary of the Wood Carvers' Union, which, I am sorry to say, is now extinct. The wages of foreign wood carvers are about 50s. to 60s. 20283. (Chairman.) You have made out in four sheets the rates of wages?—I have. 20284. Have you endeavoured to obtain accurate in- formation on the subject?—I have.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 735 20285. As far as you know, are these statements ♦correct ?—Yes. 20286. Is there anything else you wish, to add?—If your Lordship will allow me to finish my statement .about the long hours and the standard of Jewish life, I tshould like to do so. 20287. You must really put it very shortly?—I will ssay nothing about the cabinet-maker's trade. 20.288. (Mr. Vallance.) In the case of the foreign -cabinet-maker, what you say is that the average weekly wages range from £2 to £2 4s. per week, and you schedule the names?—Yes. (Major Hvans-Gordon.) I should not like it to be taken that I accept all these statements. I should like to have the advantage of reading through this state- ment, which was only placed in my hand late last night. Therefore, I may wish to recall the witness, but I should like to read over the statement first. (Chairman.) Certainly. 20289. (Mr. Vallance.) You say that in the case of the Leeds costume and mantle trade the wages earned by foreigners are exceedingly good ?—Yes. 20290. And you show by the list which you submit that they earn £3, £2 15s., £2 5s., £2, 35s., and 30b1- per week. That shows the range of their earnings?— "Yes. 20291. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Take the wood carvers. You give a number of names of men and a number of names of employers ?—Yes. 20292. And the rate paid per hour averages about Is. ?—I think lOd. is nearer the mark. 20*293. There is one a.s low as 5Jd., and another 6d., "but the others are lid., Is., lid., Is. 0^d., 6d., 10d., 10$d., 9Jd. to 10d., Is. to- Is. Id. P—Yes. 20294. Those are the figures ?—Yes. I have got them from good sources—from the Secretary of the Union. 20295. Then, Mr. Vallance has asked you about the cabinet-makers' wages. Now take the cap-makers. You produce a table of wages for the past three months, and it shows the average machiners' wages are about 7>0s. to 32s. a week, rising to 43s. ?—Yes. 20296. The cutters average about two guineas a -week, and rise to 46s. 9d. ?—Yes. 20297. And blockers range from 33s. to 48s., and average about 40s. ?—Yes. 20298. Those you have obtained in the same way, and can verify by the names of the workers and the names of the employers?—I have the names of the workers in the cap trade, but not of the employers. 20299. They are actual cases ?—Yes. (Major Evans-*Gordon.) Because I do not cross- examine on these figures now, I do not in the least accept them as accurate. I must claim to have a little time to go into them and make inquiries of my own. (Witness.) May I say that I have not picked out anything. I am only a poor working man, and I have had no time to go about picking! out things., but they are the real representatives of the bulk. The people -were asked to under-estimate rather than over-estimate. Then, will your Lordship allow me to add a few words ivith regard to the charge, that the Jews have intro- duced the sweating system:—sweaters and sweating dens. These adjectives have so often been used in con- nection with Jewish industries, that people really be- lieve them to be realities. No one who knows me will Mr. J. Finn. suspect me of being in the least an apologist for the —— Jewish middlemen ; in fact, they look upon me as their ^ April 1903. arch-enemy; yet I must admit that in all my experience with them, as working man under them 'and as secre- tary, fighting with them, I have not found one to look like the figure he is painted. I have a much greater horror for the genuine capitalist than I have for the middleman. As to the sweating dens, I did not find them. In Leeds, where I worked for six years, the workshops were large, and compared favourably with the general run of fac- tories. When I was secretary of the Mantle-Makers' Union, I visited,, in time of peace, every workshop once a quarter where our members were employed. All the workshops made a favourable impression on me. I have never heard an uncivil word of a middleman during my visits to examine the books1 of the members, or even when asking the non-Unionists to join the Union, or when going as a delegate during a dispute. Only once during the whole two years of my secretaryship I was insulted and shown the door, and that was by an English manfle manufacturer in Cannon Street. By sweating is understood very long hours and bad pay. As to the earnings, I have already pointed out, and will further prove by a list of the earnings of various Jewish workers, that, on an average, they earn more than natives. My limited time and means enabled me to get only a few names of individual workers, and firms, but they are taken from the bulk, and are a. true sample of the whole. The long hours' question requires a few words of explana- tion. The native working man, who, in general, is employed in staple industries, and whose work is uni- form and regular, when he hears about long; hours worked in some Jewish trades, imagines that these long hours are permanent. He. beholds in his mind's eye a poor fellow working 14 or 16 hours week in week out, year in year out, but how is it in reality? In reality, as I have already pointed out, most of the trades in which Jews are employed are fluctuating; there is no regularity aibout them. In the men's clothing trade it is about the same. There is no regularity. The work comes all at once, and, therefore, the work has to be made all at once. When a person orders a suit on Wed- nesday he wants to have it on Saturday. The shop- keeper does not want to> refuse the order, and he relies on the Jewish master to do the work in time, and the Jewish master is compelled to drive the Jewish workman to work long hours to> get it ready; but, when all the hours of the Jewish working man are taken together for six months, and divided by the number of working days during the six months, you will find a very normal work- ing day, perhaps a. shorter working day than is worked generally by English working men. Then, with regard to his standard of living, I positively declare, without fear of contradiction, that the standard of living of the foreign Jewish working man is higher than the natives. I will make a comparison. (Chairman.) We really must compress this. 20300. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) In which of these trades do you say there is most hoime work noiw?1—It is done a little now in the boot and shoe trade. Of those boot and shoe workmen who were first employed inside, and, having been turned off, and having no other way of making a living, those who could get some other em- ployment got it, but the others are trying to get some work from those factories who still require some home work. 20301. Is there much home work in the tailoring trade ?—'Not among the Jews—nothing to speak of. 20302. Only in the bootmaking?—Yes. Mr. Adolph L. Btjrlin, called; and Examined. 20303. (Lord Bothschild.) Are you a manufacturing chemist at Burton-on-Trent ?—Yes. 20504. You were born in Grodno, in Russia, and you came over here with very small means 23 years ago, I believe ?—Yes. 20305. I believe you practised as a dentist in Russia and other foreign countries?—Yes. 20306. When you came to England you wanted to practise 'as a dentist, but, owing to the Dental Act of 1878* your calling was interfered with, and you took up chemistry ?—Yes, my Lord. 20307. Your aim, when you took up chemistry, was to utilise ~ waste products, and you commenced with brewers' yeast?—Yes. 20308. (Chairman.) Is that a waste product?—It used to> be a waste product, but it is utilised now. 20309. (Lord Bothschild.) You established a factory in South Tottenham, and employed foreign and E. lglish workmen?—Yes. 20310. Your foreign employees understood most of the work, because similar factories existed abroad, but not here?—Yes. 20311. Your foreman was a Hungarian Jew, and most of your foreign workmen were Jews, and you have always found that your English and foreign workmen worked harmoniously together?—Yes. 20312. I believe the trade grew in your hands, and the factory was taken over by a British firm ?—That is m Mr. A. Z. Burlin.73G ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr^A. L. 20313. Perhaps you would explain to the Commission Burlin. what you actually did with this waste product, the < — - - brewers- yeast ?—We turned it into a bakers' yeast for April 1903. baking purposes. 20314. You turned the brewers' yeast, which was a waste product, into a bakers' yeast for baking purposes ? —Ye®. 20315. (Mr. Vallance.) How long since is that?— That is about 12 years ago. 20316. Brewers' yeast was utilised for baking bread long before that, was not it ?—But not in a compressed state1—what they call compressed yeast., 20317; (Chairman.) That is a qualification?—It is a different treatment for yeast. 20318. But brewers' yeast was utilised for baking pur- poses, was it not P—Yes, before distillers' yeast was in- troduced into this, country. They used it, but in an en- tirely different way, They used it in a liquid state. 20319. {Lord Bothschild.) Now you make a powder of • it?-—We also manufacture it in dry powder, but it was chiefly done in a compressed state. 20320. (Mr. Vallance.) Yon spoke of it as the utilisa- tion of a waste product?—So- it was. Most brewers could not sell their yeast for baking purposes. 20321. {Chairman.) But the domestic person, who made bread, got the yeast from somewhere to make the bread with?—Yes; but consider the enormous quanti- ties which a brewery has, most of which goes into the drains. I am now the general manager of a company, and, on behalf of this company, I established in Burton-on-Trent extensive works to deal with all the brewers' and maltsters' bye-products, which have hitherto been treated as waste, and, heretofore, mil- lions of pounds worth have been thrown on the land or down the sewers, and when our works are completed i& will be one of the most important industries in Burton- on-Trent. 20322. Will the brewers make a great deal more profit ? —I am afraid they will. They will give us very little chance to do so. 20323. They will get something out of it?—They will get most out of it. 20324. (Lord Bothschild.) Can you explain what these new industries are which you are starting ?—We manu- facture all kinds of cattle food—in fact, food for all animals. 20325. (Chairman.) From grains?—Yes, from grains, hops, and cask bottoms; whatever there is of waste in a brewery, we take it all, and treat it by a certain pro- cess. The town of Burton-on-Trent ought to benefit greatly. 20326. Some of the people who live in it will ?—Some of the people who live in it will. When we first started, we were considered a nuisance. When I started in Bur- ton-on-Trent I had to go to Germany for fitters to fit up the necessary plant., and had t© pay very heavy wages to these Germains ; 2s. 6d. pear hour far 10 ho>urs working day, and 3s. 9d. overtime hours, besides paying their fares, and l?,s. 6d. extra for the Sunday's rest. Now we are extending our works, and all the additional machinery are fixed now by our own trained English hands. i'" * 20327. (Lord Bothschild.) You have dispensed with the Germans who came over here temporarily, and you are i employing none but English ?—That is so. Our industry now is a great benefit, not onl- to the working man, but n , to the brewer and Town Council. The bye-products have ; been a constant trouble to both brewer and Town Coun- cil. Now I would ask whether this is not an instance not only of a foreigner introducing a new trade by means of foreign workmen, but a trade which now gives em- , r ployment to a considerable number of Englishmen. My , case is not an isolated one. I have many foreign friends who have established new industries in this country, and employ British labour exclusively. 20328. Could you state, for the information of the Commission, what are these new industries ?—There is a new industry in Burton-on-Trent, which was estab- lished by1 a German. It is called the Marmite Food Extract Company. 20329. (Chairman.) What is that?—They make beef tea without beef. 20330. Hut what is it ?—It is a substitute for b«©f tea. 20331. Made out of what?—jkade out of brewers* yeast. It is sold by the name of " Marmite-."' 20332. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is it made out of cask bottoms?—No, it is made purely out of yeast. The nourishing portion of the yeast is extracted, and t^e shells are thrown away. We take the shells from this, factory as well, and utilise them in cattle foods. 20333. (Chairman.) You speak respectfully of thifc product?—They are doing a very good trade;, that is* the very best proof of it. 20334. (Lord Bothschild.) Besides this beef tea manu- facture, what else is there?—There is in our neigh- bourhood the Swiss milk factory of Nestle's, which has. been recently established. 20335. (Chairman.) Is that in connection with the? dairy company?—Yes, I think so, but it has been established by Nestle'-s, of .Switzerland. 20336. (Lord Bothschild.) I suppose there are marga- rine factories, which a.re run by foreigners, too ?—Yes,, originally, but English people were nob very fon'd of: margarine in the beginning. 20337. You would consider Brunner and Mond! foreigners ?—Yes. 20338. You think there are plenty of openings for- energetic foreigners in England ?—Yes, plenty. 20339. (Chairman.) I do not think Major Gordon oft anyone else is attacking the inroad of such foreigners as these, but it is rather the alien who comes under* circumstances which make him objectionable?—But, my Lord, I came over here exactly under the same cir- cumstances as all the other poor individuals who com©* over here. 20340. But you, being a dentist, came as an educated man?—-Yes, but then I had no means. I came oyer here as a poor man. I did not come over here thinking: for a moment that there1 was an anti-Semitic feeling; in England. I had been born in a country, unfortu- nately, where such things existed ; but I do not see any necessity for it existing in this country. 20341. You will have got rid of that feeling among; vhe brewers in Burton?—Very likely. 20342. (Lord Bothschild.) If you had not been aible? to combine your scientific knowledge of the bye-pro- ducts, and had not succeeded as a dentist, you would probably have had to look to some of these trades* like tailoring and shoemaking, which are overstocked^ or would you have gone back to your own country?— I could &ot go back to my own country, because they would vary likely have sent me to Siberia or somewhere* else. 20343. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Why?—Because I did not serve as a soldier there. I did not think it; was ai country worth serving as a soldier for. 20344. (Lord Bothschild.) If you had not been able to* utilise these bye-products and to make beef tea without beef you would have learnt some other trade?—Yes,.. certainly. 20345. (Chairman.) You employ none but English- men, I understand ?—None but British, and all our- ' friends, too. 20346. Are they all British in the other trades in Burton ?'—Yes, even at Nestle's Swiss milk factory th'ey- employ about 300 hands who are all English. , 20347. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) I do not think there are* any foreigners in Burton ?—No, you could not get them for love or money there. I do not think much of the* working classes in Burton. The situation is this: that if we could get foreign workmen in Burton, I, as= an employer, would prefer them, because we would succeed much better. The misfortune of the British workman at the present moment is the Trades Unions. I consider that a great drawback to our workmen. I believe in a combination. I worked myself up from nothing, and I believe in combinations of workmen, but I believe that the British trade is suffering exten- sively under the rule of Trades Unions in this country. I can prove many instances where I should have con- sidered it an absurdity to 'lead men by such taqtics and such principles, because it is of no benefit to them. 20348. (Mr, Vallance.) You say that nearly all the improvements whick have taken pl&c© in ehemistry m this countrv have been brought about by foreigners?— Yes, mos% by Ge:mans.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 737 20349. That is the result of your experience ?—Yes. 20350. What do you mean when you say that the British workmen have more liberty to exercise their abilities and extend their knowledge than the foreign workmen ?—I say the German workmen. 20351. You say the: German workmen have more liberty to exercise their abilities and extend their knowledge than the British workmen?—Yes, because they do not work under the same conditions as the British workman does ; they are not under the Trades Union. I have studied that question thoroughly, be- cause I have been in Germany, and also I have been in France, and I have always endeavoured to study the question of workmen, and I have found the most in- telligent workman is the German. 20352. Do j^ou mean the British workman works more mechanically?—Yes. I could give a few in- stances. For instance, I fixed up a very large boiler, and found the boiler was not sufficiently big, so I ex- tended the works and fixed up two more boilers next to them. During the time the boilermaker was fixing another boiler I had an accident on the big boiler which I had there at first, when I started, and so I said to the boilermaker, "Will you do me a favour, and attend to this little job first, and leave that alone?" He said, "I cannot do it." I said, "Why? You are putting in such tremendous flues ; did you not learn that?" He said, "Yes, I learnt that, but I dare not do it. You will have to send down to our shop and get a fitter to do it." introduces more originality?—Yes, he has more ocea- Mr. A. L sion. Biirlin. 20354. And that that originality brought to bear in 30 April 1903 England is a great advantage to this country?—It —-- would be a great advantage. 20355. {Chairman.) The instance you give is that the foreign workman, not belonging to a Trades Union, is not subject to the rules they have made as to a particu- lar hand only doing particular work?—Yes. 20356. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You were well edu- cated in Russia before you came here ?—No, the Rus- sians would not give me a chance to get well educated. 20357. But you were a dentist there, and you had to qualify?—Yes, I had the great fortune to get my education in Germany. 20358. As a boy you went to Germany?—I went to school in Germany. 20359. And then came back to Russia?—Yes. My father sent me over there when I was 11 years old. 20360. Where were you educated in Germany ?—In a town near the Russian frontier. 20361. Then you came back to Russia and you were educated ?—No, I did not. 20362. You came from Germany here?—No, I went from Germany to France. 20363. And then came here P—Yes, from France to Holland, and from Holland I cam© over here. 20364. You were a qualified dentist when you arrived ? —Yes. 20353. What you mean is that the foreign workman 20365. And educated in Germany and France?—Yes. Mr. Sam Freedman, called; and Examined. 20366. (Lord Bothschild.) You are Secretary to the Leeds Jewish Tailors, Machinists, and Pressers' Trade Union ?—Yes. I arrived in Leeds) 20 years ago. I cam© from Kotzno, in Russia. I knew mo trade when I caime over, and was advised by friends to become a tailor's machinist. After I had worked the machine for four years I was able to earn 36s. per week, or 6s. per day, so I worked on for 12 years, and my wages rose to 45s. per week, or 7s. 6a. per uay ; and in April of 1895, I was elected General Secretary to the above-named Union, a position I still have the honour to hold, and my experi- ence in the tailoring trade of Leeds is as follows- 20367. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is this an exclusively Jewish Union?—Yes. There are a few Englishmen who are working in Jewish shops, but, they are bound to be members, of our Union. The most part of it is Jewish. Why foreigners are employed in the wholesale clothing trade in Leeds is because they are competent and quali- fied to handle the garments, and are willing and anxious to work, and are more sober workmen, and the clothing firms find that by employing aliens they get their work in time, and at the shortest possible notice. The wages earned by competent foreign workmen in Leeds in tho clothing trade are from 33s>. to 45s. per week; of course^ I do not refer to mere learners—machinists and pressers are learners here; but tailors have learned the trade be- fore they come here. The hours of labour in our trades are 61 per week. Foreigners are employed mostly in the wholesale line; a very small percentage in the be- spoke line. 20368. (Chairman.) Do those 61 hours include, or ex- clude, the time you have for meals—the l\ hours ?_No; that includes the actual working hours per week. 20369. That is high, is it not?—It is 10J per day, practically; Saturdays off, and the Sunday they work only 9 hours ; Friday, 10; the other days they work 10J. 20370. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They are all Jewish work- shops ?—Yes. 20371. (Chairman.) It is 12 hours actually?—From 8 o'clock to 8 o'clock is 12 hours, but 1J hours come off. 20372. And 9 hoursi on Sunday?—Sunday, 9 hours; Friday, 10 hours; but to calculate it altogether during the week, it amounts to 61. The method that the for- eigners have that makes them preferable to the natives is the use of machinery, and sub-division of labour. As to machinery, and how natives object to it, no natives would, in former years, go and learn the machine for pressing, though there are a. few now that have taken to pressing; but they still' will not become machinists, 6144. whereas the foreign Jew has taken advantage of that branch, and has thrown himself into that line of trade T^r'j and has, moreover, practically become an expert in the Freedman. sub-division of labour. This sub-division is so well or- ganised, that each one who takes up a sub-division of the garment becomes an expert of his division. No foreigner has displaced any native ; on the contrary the foreigner has practically created and developed the wholesale clothing trade, and in the meantime a field of labour has been opened, where thousands of natives male and female, are making their living. 30 years, ago there were only a few small firms in the wholesale cloth- ing trade in Leeds, whereas to-day we find in Leeds the largest clothing firms of Great Britain, nay, I may say m the world. Leeds has now practically become the centre of the world in the wholesale clothing line If no foreigner would be available in Leeds in the wholesale-. clothing line, then Leeds and the West Riding of York- shire. and Great Britain in general, would greatly suffer^ by it, because the trade in this industry would drop off • and if restriction is adopted, I have no doubt that the clothing industry will feel it very keenly. The Leeda clothing manufacturers could testify to my statement. This was the opinion expressed by Mr. Rowland H. Bar- ran, M.P., who is himself one of the-partners' in one of the largest wholesale clothing firms in Leeds, namely John Barran and Sons, given in answer to a question about aliens, put to him by an elector last July, at one or his meetings, when he successfully contested North Leeds as Parliamentary candidate. I have a paper cut- ting with me. The branch of the trade in which aliens are employed is mostly that of making coats, and a very small proportion make waistcoats, and none at all make - trousers and juveniles—the last two items being made by English women, either inside the factories or at their homes. As regards overcrowding and sanitation, the most overcrowded and insanitary parts of Leeds are oc- cupied by natives. There has never been, to m^ recollec- tion, one single case of small-pox, or any other infectious, disease, amongst the Jewish inhabitants. The wages of native® have not been reduced through the foreigner_in fact, the alien tailors are earning far above the standard of the native tailors' trade union wages, and I contra- dict the statement made by Mr. Marston, of Leeds, before the Commission, that the alien does not earn bigger wages than the natives. He also stated that the overcrowding by aliens in Leeds was so great that the Leede City Council had to clear 60 acres of land, mostly occupied by aliens. I challenge that statement. In the Jewish quarter not 10 acres have been cleared, though probably, in other quarters occupied by natives, there might have been 60 acres cleared. I also beg to state 5 AROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : that ciuring the evidence given by Mr. Connellan, Sec- Freedman. retary of the Leeds Trades and Labour Council, he 30 A ^'lTorvt sifted that " a - resolution was passed at the Trades Couiieil,- urging upon the Government to take step® against the influx of aliens to this country," but he omitted to: inform the Commission the date when such resolution, was passed. When I questioned him about it Council meeting on March 25th, his reply was that it was passed at the beginning of 1894— just a few months previous to our affiliation with that body, aiid I am certain that the same council would not end orse such a resolution at the present time. The num- ber ' of aliens working in the trade (and when I say " ali&Hs they are Jews) is from 1,600 to 1,700, out of which 1,300 are members of our Trade Union. We be- long to the Local Trades 'Council, to the Trades Union Congress, to the General Federation of Trades Unions, and to the Labour Representation Committee, and, since our formation in 1892, we have always been in the front rank'of the Trades Union movement. It is, therefore, false to state that the Jews> avoid Trade Unions. I am not in favour of restriction, though I would not allow a oriminal alien to land if there would be a possibility to find out.that he is a, criminal. I would also prohibit old men to land, unless some relative is responsible for. his maintenance. I cannot see any need for restriction, with the exception of the last two classes I have named. I think what has made England what it is to-day is the free trade]; and an open door to the oppressed, and, if restriction is adopted all round, England would lose a great deal of her moral standard in the civilised world. 20573. (.Major Evans-Gordon.) I understand that in Leeds the workers in the tailoring industry are united 'into a strong Trades Union?—Yes, quite so. 20374. Therefore, the majority of the conditions under which they work are Trades Union conditions—Trades Union hours, Trades Union wages, and so on?—That is .so. *'•* ' . 20375. You have no large element of non-Union sUSiU "people ?-frtNx>t among the Jews. There is a larger percen- tage of unorganised workmen among the natives than among the Jews. 20376. The Jews are highly organised ?—They are. 20377.* Therefore, in Leeds, at all events, vou have no t -got any of that element—namely, a large portion of dis- • organised labour, like you have in London ?—Quite so. 20378. Do you know anything about the conditions of the Jewish labour world in London?—I know a little. 20379. How do you compare it with the condition of affairs in Leeds ?—Speaking generally, the conditions in . Leeds are far hotter than in London. 20380. Y6u: are aware of the agitations which have re- cently been going on in the Jewish labour world in the East End "frith regard to the length of hours, bad con- ditions1 of labour, and low wages?—Yes, I have heard about it^ , 20381. According to Mr. Lewis Lyons, at a meeting in Whiteohapel, they earn on an average less than 23s. a week?—Mr. Lewis Lyons is not the only authority there is in the East End of London. 20382. Quite so. I do not quote him as an authority; but ! merely want to know how far you agree with that statement ?—I do not think it is true myself a,s far as wages are concerned in, London, even in the East End. If the wages earned by the alien workman in the East End would be only 23s., as Mr. Lewis Lyons stated, he could not possibly live, because the rate of living in London is far dearer, and the rent, too, isi far dearer, than in Leeds*. LeediS workmen could not possibly live on 23s., and how could a workman live in London on 23s. ? 20383. Are you acquainted with the wages of British - wo rkmen ?—Yes. 20384. Are there not thousands and thousands of British workmen in the East End who live on 23s. and :24s. a week?—'Yes, but their living is a bit less expen- isive than the Jews' is. 20385. You say the alien workman in the East End of Tendon lives more expensively than the English work- man ?—Yes, he is bound to do so. 20386. Why?—There are plenty of things' that the native does not spend a penny on that a Jew ha® to do. There is the education of his children, and there are other things. 203871'What does he spend : on education I—He has to pay th^ Jewish ralbbi in the Jewish schools, and even if he is only a poor father, and has four sons, he does not want his boys to go to a poor orphans' school, and he has to pay a shilling for each. 20388. (Chairman.) Why do they not go to the Board school?—'They do go to the Board school, but after they have been to the Board school they go to a. Hebrew school. 20389. That is not universal, is it %—It is universal. Every Jew, whether he is a religious man or not, makes his child learn the Jewish religion. 20390. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That costs him a shilling a week?1—Yes. 20391. Has there not been an agitation in the Jewish world with regard to the reduction of hours, and so on, of these children who go to the rabbi schools?—Yes. 20392. You say that the Jewish workman in the East End of London has to live more expensively than the Englishman ?—Yes. 20393. Will you go on and tell us why? Religious education is one thing 1—Then there is another thing. The majority of Jews are religious men. They pay a certain amount off their wages into a, synagogue. 20394. Are they all seatholders in synagogues ?—The majority of thefm. The smallest sum paid even in the smallest congregations' is 6d. a week, which the native does not pay. That is another expense to him, and it applies to- the Jew and not to> the native. Then there is another instance"—meat. Meat is generally bought from a Jewish butcher, and the reason of that is because the Jew is not allowed hy his religion to buy it any- where else than from a Jewish butcher, and it must be killed by a Jew, and special men are sent round for the purpose. This meat is more expensive than the meat which the native buys. It is bound to be, because spe- cial men are put on for the purpose of killing the beasts, and these men have to. get their wages, and there is no doubt the meat must be higher in price in order to meet the extra expense. There are a few more items that a Jew has to pay, and which the native does not. 20395. (Major Evans-Gorclon.) What about overcrowd- ing ?—Where ? 20396. In the East End. Do you know anything about that?—I do not know much about overcrowding. 20397. Have you been much in the East End of Lon- don ?—Yes. 20398. You are personally acquainted with the con- ditions under which these people live?—Yes ; but 1 should not say it is as bad as it has been painted, for all that. 20399. You are personally acquainted with the condi- tions ?—Yes. 20400. You say that in making these statements Mr. Lewis Lyons, who is a trades unionist, I believe, is stating what is not true?—Yes, and I challenge Mr. Lewis Lyons to prove to-day that the average wage of the alien workman in the East End is 23s. per week. He calls himself a trades unionist and a Jewish leader, but I call a man like that a sham trades unionist. He cannot prove it. 20401. Then do" you say the agitation about hours that is going on in the East End of London among Jewish workmen, and about the formation of trades unions, and so on, has nothing in it?—Yes. 20402. You say there is no reason for the agitation at all ?—What I say isi that it has been a great deal exag- gerated. The thing h'as been made more of than it really is. 20403. You have no sympathy with the agitation in the East End of London ? —No, I have no doubt that some better conditions should be brought aibout in the East End of London. 20404. Should you say the conditions in the East End of London are worse than those in Leeds ?—Yes. 20405. How much worse?—It depends in what re- spect. 20406. With regard to wages ?—I do not think they are with regard to wages. The, hours may be more exces- sive here, but with regard to wages I do not think there is any difference. 20407. (Chairman.) In one sense the wages must be lower, because there are many unskilled and greeners in the East End that you have not got in Leeds ?—We have them in Leeds. We have a strong Trades Union in Leeds, and as soon as they come to Leeds, when they.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 739 flock into the workshops, we see that they are not sweated. 2040&5 (Major Evans-Gordon.) My contention is, and what I. am trying to got from you is, that you start your, statement by saying, you have strong trade unions in ( Leeds?—Yes. 20409. And that nearly all your workmen ;are trades unionists in Leeds ? I say the mere fact of that Union existing is a proof that the conditions of labour in Leeds are far superior to what they are. in the* East End of London, where there is comparatively no organisation ?—Quite so. N 20410. Then we are in agreement. You say at page 4 of your statement: "It is therefore false to state that the Jews avoid trade unions.That applies to Leeds, not to London ?—I should say it applies generally. 20411. Can you point to any large Jewish and foreign trades union in London?—I shall' take the provinces. 20412. But I am taking London. You say it is false to say that Jews avoid trades unions ?—Probably ; see- ing the percentage that there are of foreigners in the East End of London, they are as well organised as the British are. (Lord Rothschild.) I shall call a witness who will deal with the trades unions in London. 20413. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Anyhow, the Leeds foreigners are very much better organised than they are in London ?—Yes. 20414. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say you get greeners in Leeds ?—Yes. 20415. Where do they come from? Do they come from London ?—Some of them come from London, and some through Grimsby and Hull. 20416. They come direct to Leeds ?—Yes. 2Q417. Leeds being the centre of the cloth trade is an attraction to them to some extent?—Yes? to some of them, . <20418; When a greener comes to Leeds you say he is looked after. Does he become a member of the Trades Union at once 21—Yes, we take good care that when he comes into the.Jewish shop he shall not be sweated by the employer and worked under wages. If he. liad not been organised probably he would have been. 20419. Them the greener is organised as soon as he comes?—Yes, he is bound to come into the union as soon as he is able to earn money and comes into the workshop. He is boundi to become a member of the trades union, and, in fact, the workmen in the shop force him to. 20420. Do many of them come quite inexperienced in the trade?1—Yes. 20421; How long do you say they take to learn to . becomes workers %—The longer they work the more they get experience in it; but to earn a wage, if the man works for ajbout three years he can earn a wage to make a nice living with. Of course, he earns money for the first month, as far as that goes. 20422. What sort of wages does he earn for the first month ? What would be the standard for an inexperi- enced man, who is a mere learner, to begin with %—His • wages would run for the first 12 months to an average of between 12s. and 15s. a week—that is the first year. 20423. Are there imany wome;n employed in the Jewish workshops ?—Yes, a lot. 20424. Jewish women?—Both Jewish women and English ; they work in harmony. In fact, there are some English women employed in Leeds Who prefer a lot better to work in the Jewish workshop to working in a factory. The reason of it is because they are not as much sweated, and they are earning far bigger wages in the Jewish workshop. 20425. Is there any agitation against the Jewish workers?—There was a little agitation, but it soon died out. 20426. Do the English women work on Sundays ?— No ; the Jews work on Sunday. 20427. Then the English wdmen lose two days- Saturday and Sunday?—In some places the employer allows the women to work half a day on Saturday ; that is to say, the English women who are not working on Sundays. 20428. (Mr. Tallance.) You say you are not in favour 6144. of any general, restriction of immigration into this Mr. S. country?—No. Freedman. 20429. You say that in the interests of the com- 30 April 1908. munity as a whole ?—Yes. -- 20430. With reference to certain classes, you ■feel there ought to be restriction ?—Yes. 20431. You say that the criminal, if he can be dis- covered, should be prevented from entering the country ? -—Yes. 20432. Then you also say that the aged should also be excluded?—Yes. 20433. But you draw the line there, and say ther# should be no further exclusion ; is that so ?—That i» my opinion. 20434. What would you say to persons who are suffer- ing from disease, or who are unclean of person, so as to run the risk of contagion to others?—It could easily be managed by the! shipping companies'. If a person came over with any infectious disease on him, I should not allow him in, by no means.. 20435. Would you say that bad characters should be excluded, if known?—It depends on what the bad character is. Supposing a man has committed a politi- cal crime in Russia ? 20436. Other than political crimes?—That is what I call a criminal. If it is found out he was a criminal, a vagabond, or a thief. 20437. (Chairman.) Take a man who has never been convicted, but whom you have reasonable suspicion to suppose is a coiner or a Nihilist, would you keep him out or not?—I should not keep a Nihilist out because the man had to go away from his country on account of political purposes. 20438. If you thought he was likely to take life you would not keep him out ?—No.; a Nihilist is not a man who takes life ; he is working against the Government of Russia. 20439. A man who carries those views to an extreme extent, and thinks all foreigners ought to be got rid of? —•Perhaps he carries on the agitation in the country where there is most oppression, but when he comes to a free country like England is he may change his opinions. I should not exclude him at all. 20440. (Mr. Vallance.) Do you think . prostitutes should be allowed to enter the country, if known?— How can it be found out? 20441. If known 1>—-I should not allow them. 20442. Then you would extend your exclusion ?—Int. some modified way. We are not, as Jews, in favour---- at least, I am not in favour—of bad characters being found among Jews. 20443. You only desire that the door should not be absolutely closed to the enterprising foreigner ?—It depends on what is an undesirable. If a man comes over poor, and has nothing except his healthy muscles, or whatever it may be, I should not exclude him. 20444. A man of good character ?—Yes. I hold, if a. man comes over, it does not .matter if he is poor, so* long as !he is a healthy man and strong. He may not have a penny-piece when he comes over, but I say a man like that should be allowed to come in. ^20445. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You desire what we all of us desire—namely, that we should have no criminals nor bad people of any sort amongst us, if it can be brought about; but the difficulty is to bring it about? —That is so. 20446. The question is whether the attempt to bring- it about would not cause greater evils ?—Very likely. & 20447. (Chairman.) .Supposing the iman you have- just mentioned—poor, without any property or re- sources at all—ihow would you anticipate he would be- able to support himself ? And if he cannot support * himself, would you let him in ?—A man who is a healthy man is bound to find work. 20448. You anticipate that?—Yes. I will give you an instance in Leeds. When the busy season comes it does not matter ..whatever 'hands there are, there are always orders, .and for as many as come there there is always wp£k,: found for them. When times are bad it is bad for everybody, but when they come over in the good times, it does not matter how many there are « . . there is always work. * 5 A %740 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ' Mr. S. 20449. Greeners are paid 12s. to 15s. a week. There ^^■Freeihr,;)i. are such men who have wives and families. Can they vi '—— support themselves on 12s. to 15s. a week?—They are 30 Apr.] 1903. no£ nving ^ such a high standard as we live, but they are bound to make it do the best way they can. They belong to a trades union, and when it comes to a crisis they are generally supported. 20450. (f any reputation have not only succeeded in business Among the Jews, but have increased their establish- < :sients to a much larger space. I am speaking of those #ho supply article® of necessity. If you think it is Y-- ^ necessary, I could quote the names of the firms. 20512. No, it is not?—The witness, Mr. Walmer, has ; spoken of the effect of exclusive dealing at Jewish shops in White Horse Lane. As I live there, I can only say- that the English tradesmen stated to have been dis- placed in that lane were never in existence. It is the " foreign residents who have made it a place of business. There may have been some small general dealer, using ! a room in a private house as a shop formerly, but such ? . a person would have been driven out, not by the foreigner, but by an English firm—Reading's stores, facing White Horse Lane, where you may obtain all groceries, etc., wholesome and at,.a reasonable rate. This is an English firm, but, in spite of the talk of foreigners' exclusive dealings, they are increasing) their business. I must certainly admit that in the case of meat and certain provisions they are, by religious rites,, compelled to deal with their own sect. The Commis- sioners were appealed to to visit the East End. I heartily join in that appeal, so that they may. see for themselves these people of whom you have had suck a gloomy picture presented to you. Go on Saturday, or even on Sunday afternoon, and you will find, that, in the place of a ragged, dirty, and half- starved people, men and women are well be- haved, decently dressed, and of # good disposi- tion. Contrast these with the inhabitants of some streets who have been displaced by the foreigner. Let me mention only one of many streets which were dens, of vice of every description, viz., Flower and Dean Street, where even a police-constable could not venture^ single-handed. What a contrast now with the foreign, dweller! There are other streets whose form has changed in a like manner ; and yet we are told that the foreigner is displacing the British worker. A step in the right direction, I would urge, is the abolition of the domestic workshop by a law compelling all manufacturers of any article of clothing to have his work done on the premises. The question of immigra- tion affecting the English worker was discussed at the- London Trades' Council, and, after an animated dis- cussion, on a resolution advocating restricted legisla- tion, the resolution was rejected almost unanimously- 20513. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) When was that?—In the years, I think, 1895 and 1896. 20514. (Chairman.) Was this a Trades Union Coun- cil?—Yes, the London Trades Council. I wish to> point out that the London Trades Council is composed of duly elected delegates from the various Unions in London. They are the actual persons who would be the sufferers if the alien worker was a rival or robbed the English of their work or homes or reduced their wages. 20515. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Has the same question arisen since that time ?—'No, not since that time. Con- trast the vote of these people with the statements of local borough councillors and others, who have poli- tical interests to serve and votes to win,, and who are attacking a person who is, for known reasons, likely to be unpopular. Contrast the resolution of the London Trades Council, which represents the wishes of the majority in all the trades, with the statements; of a few isolated workmen. With reference to the boot trade, my friend, Mr. O'Grady, of the Boot Operatives5" Union, stated that- he finds the alien w'ill not join an Union. Might I trace 'back the Union to which Mr. O'Grady belongs to the time they numbered over 70,000, whereas now they are only 50,000? Where are the remaining 20,000? They are now being sweated all over the country, where not only men, but women, take home work to do, a thing unknown among the foreign women, as far as the boot-lasting and finishing are- concerned. Mr. Lewis Lyons made a statement that synagogues were against organisation and Trades- Unions. I can only say, as a frequenter of the Syna- gogue, I can contradict that, because all the sermons. I have ever heard have always been against the usurer, the rack-renter, and the sweater. 20516. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say it is not the case that they are antagonistic to Trades Unions?— No. 20517. (Major JEvans-Gorddn.) How many members are there in the Cap Trade Union?—In the Cap Trade Union there are something like 120. 20518. I see you were in the Boot and S'hoe Opera- tives' Union before?—Yes. 20519. Why did you leave that Union ?—I may say the Boot and Shoe Union is non-existent. 20520. You were in the National Union ?—Yes. I was- in that at different times. There are two different branches. 20521. They are still non-existent ?—Yes, but not those branches- 20522- Those were the Jewish branches of it?1—Yes. 20523. They have ceased to exist ?—Yes. 20524. With regard to the Trades Unions among aliens, generally, do you find the alien immigrant take* readily to Trades Unions ?—-I find they do take readily to Tradesi Unionsand, in fact, no sooner do they get , into work than the first thing they inquire after is the Trades Union. 20525. Why have the two branches of these Union*r— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 743 •ceased to exist ?—These two branches, as I have pointed out in my evidence,- were in existence, and were strong branches prior to the strike with regard to indoor labour, but the causes that I have mentioned—the ill- -ireatmemt, etc.—'have driven the aliens out of the work- shops again, and the branches of that Union necessarily /disappeared. 20526. Do you say that the failure of that arrange- ment was due to the aliens being ill-treated in the workshops ?—Yes- 20527. That is the first time we have heard of it. But is it not the fact that a large number of alien employers broke away from the arrangement and the statement that was drawn up, such as Weber's, for instance?— 'They did not break away until some time after, when the Union in London had no force. At present, talking of the statement, there is no uniform statement in the trade- 20528. The whole arrangement has come to an end ?— Yes. 20529. As regards the aliens?—Yes, all round. 20530. It is not so all round. It does not affect the English workers at all. Their Union remains ?—Their Union remains, but, as I pointed out, nothing near to what it was. They were 70,000, and now they are barely 50,000. 20531. Because all the aliens have left it, and, naturally, the numbers have gone down ?—But there are not 20,000 aliens in the trade. 20532.,, Putting that aside, do you say that Trades Unions flourish among the aliens in the East End?— Yes. 20533. You do?—Yes- 20534. How is it that meetings are constantly being held, at whi^h I myself have attended, urging the people to join oliese Unions, and everyone you speak to tells you you cannot get them to.remain in the Union ?— With reference to that, I may state that the difference .between; the English, Unionist and the foreign Unionist is this : that the English Unionist is content with.pay- ing his subscription,; and there are very few who take any interest in the working of it. You may go to a meeting of an English Trades Union which has 3,000 members, such as the Metropolitan Branches of the Boot and Shoe Workers' Union^ and you will find 20 there; Whereas among foreigners they take a keen interest in any organisation they join, and the result of the disputes is that if they disagreed with certain things there is naturally dissension, and they, break away, "which is the cause of the. ups and downs of the Jewish Union. 20535. That points to What I say, that Trades Unionism—whatever the reason may be—is not a suc- cess among these people?—No, it does not remain. 20536. It does hot flourish.?—No'. 20537. Then you say, "With reference to the East End boot manufacturers having driven away the leather dealers." Who made any (statement as to the boot manufacturers liaving driven away the English leather dealers ?—I did not take the name of the witness down. 20538. If. my recollection serves me, no such state- ment has ever been , made, here %—I took it from the Heport. 20539. What report—the official report ?—No, not the official report. . 20540. I do not recollect any such statement being made ?—One. witness said thait the leather dealers were driven away. 20541. Then you referred to the statement of Mr. Walmer, and said he sp oke of the effect of the exclusive dealing in Jewish shops in White Horse Lane ?—Yes. 20542. The question put to Mr. Walmer was this : <( There is a tendency to trade with one another?" and he says : " As far as my own locality is 'concerned, from White Horse Lane up to Duckett Street, there are hardly any English shopkeepers, and, therefore, as a matter of fact, both English and foreigners are coon- Mr. /. pelled to trade with Jews." That is exactly what you {Solomons. say, that there were not English shops there, so that —77QftV your statement coincides precisely with his, and there April lMUa. is no difference between you and Mr. Walmer on that point at all. Then, with regard to shopkeepers gene- rally, you say that a small shopkeeper, taking the Borough of Stepney, Whitechapel, and the western end of Stepney generally—do you mean to tell me that small shopkeepers there have not been largely replaced by foreign people ?—I have said so in my evidence. 20543. He has been replaced ?—Yes. 20544. Then you say : "A step in the right direction I would urge is the abolition of the domes tic workshop." I am sure we all agree with that, but is it not the fact that many foreign people are buying house property in that part of London and then turning the houses into domestic workshops ? Is not that an everyday occur- rence ?—As things stand at present, I think it is bene- ficial. The property that is being bought up is slum property, and they are putting up pretty fair houses with a fair workshop attached. 20545. I do not mean with regard to the building so> much, but the ordinary house that is bought up. Are not one or two rooms in it very often turned into a< workshop ?—-Very seldom. They mostly build special workshops. 20546. Do not you know many houses in that part of London where if you pass in the evening, or at any time, you see work going on ?—Yes, that is so. 20547. How would you propose to do away with it— would you prevent home work in domestic workshops by law i—By law, certainly. I should not go as far as to prevent all home work, but I say every workshop should come under the Factory Act. 20548. You would make it a maitter of licence?— Yes, 20549. A licence to work at home P—A licence for a certain number, the same as a factory. 20550. I think that is quite reasonable. Then you say : " I find on examination of wages earned at various shops that the men employed in the so-called low-paying shops show a much larger average wage per weeik than their fellow-workers who pride themselves on working for the better-class shops. It is useless taking the price per pair to ascertain a man's wages ; the fair standard, in my opinion, must be his week's earnings." The ques- tion is one of hours. How do their hours a. week com- pare with these people"? You say the proper standard is to take the weekly earnings, and not the earnings per pair?—Yes. 20551. How about hours? Do not you take hours into consideration ?—Yes. They all work the ordinary factory hours. I myself am at work in one of the low- paying shops, and I have worked in some of the best shops in England. 20552. In the factory ?—Yes. 20553. Those conditions do not apply to all the home workshops?—Oh, no. 20544. (Chairman.) I want a few more particulars about this resolution', which you say was passed about - 189'3 or 1894 by the Trades Council. Was that the council of the general body of trade unions?—That was the London Trades Council, made up from elected de- i from all the trade unions of London. 20555. Would there be delegates from Stepney and the East-end upon that?'—Yes. 20556. Who is the secretary of that body 1—Mr. James Macdonald. 20557. Is he secretary now ?—Yes, but not then. Mr. George Shipton was secretary at that time. 20558. Do you know his adress ?—-Whitefriars Street. 20559. (Lord Bothschild.) I suppose there ar3 always new Jewish Unions formed as soon as the old ones col- lapse?—Yes, they fluctuate up and down. Mr. Adolph L. Btjrlin, recalled. 20560. (Chairman.) I think you wish to make some further statement to the Commission ?—From the ques- tions that were put by Major Evans-Gordon to one of the witnesses before lunch in reference to the question of the aliens coming over here, and with regard to their being undesirables, and with regard to the conditions under which they come here, and with regard to the con- ditions underf' which tiiey leave the country again, I should like to be allowed t® add a word or two. I have not been a member of the Board of Guardians or Mr. A. Burlin,744 ' ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. A.^L. • of any such, society, and the knowledge I have on that Burlin. subject is absolutely my own evidence which I collect©! —— on my own behalf and in my own interest, as I fully 30 April 1903. anticipated that one of these days an inquiry into Alien Immigration would be held. 20561. What is the point on which you desire to be heard ?—'The point is that the alien who comes over here does not come over here for the sake of coming to Eng- land and displacing the English workman. That is no t his object at all. 20562. But he may do it?—He may do it when he comes over here, but, of course, everybody knows the circumstances under which a Russian or a Pole, and especially a Jew, quits the country are different to those Tinder which any other individual may quit any other country—say Germany, for instance. That is why 1 think that the class of poor people specially coming over to this country ought to be taken more into con- sideration than the rich, and it may very likely turn out that through some law or other, which naturally would be recommended by this investigation, there would be some restriction. Say, for instance, you re- strict men coming over to this country without any money—say a poor individual who has left Russia or Poland—you may shut out a very honest individual; while in a man who comes over here with plenty of money in his pocket you would very likely admit the very rascal whom yon do not want in this country. 20563. These are very general matters. "We have had all this before, and this is not your particular informa- tion ; it is rather argument. We have thought over these things a good deal, because we have been con- sidering this matter for a year or more f—From the questions I heard put by Major Gordon I thought yom wanted to shut out the poor individuals. America has. adopted that principle, and I do not think that America has done much good. With regard to those individuals who quit this country, I do not think they ars influenced by anybody her©- at all. I think there are certain, in- dividuals who cannot stand the battle of life which they have to fight in this country, because naturally the battle of life is more keen in this country than what it: is in Russia, or in Germany, and they get weak in time, and apply to the Board of Guardans or to some private- individuals, and they say, "We cannot stand this strain any longer. We would rather have a piece of black bread and go back to Russia." It does not signify thafc undesirable elements are cleared out of this country by the Board of Guardians. As far as my knowledge-' is concerned, I am positive I have known many cases ■ where individuals could not stand the strain which was put upon them in this country, and naturally they went; and made the application that they should receive- money, or they would go to the Consul. I have known., many Germans who could not stand, the strain in this-, country. If a foreigner cannot always make a living; here comfortably be had better go somewhere else. 20564. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) All you mean is that where there are so many people who come over here- there must be soime with regard to whom you mighc say it is better they should not have come at all, and it: is better for them to be sent back ?—Yes. 20565. {Chairman.) It does not add very much to what, we have already had. Have you anything else you wishi to add ?—'No, my Lord. Major W. E. Evans-Gordon, m.p., recalled. Major W. E. (Witness.) I wish to hand in a document which your Evans- Lordship desired me to have prepared, namely, the Gordon,, m.p. translation of a Russian pass with the attendant -- documents. There are the particulars and the certi- ficate which has to be signed. 20566. (Chairman.) What passport is this?—It is the passport of a woman coming from Russia. 20567. From Russia here?—Yes. I have both the passports—the official Government passport and what they call the half pas si, which enables them to get across the frontier. 20568. One is the exit passport?1—One is the official Government one and the other is the half pass used in the frontier villages to get the people across. The document was handed in, and is as follows:— / russian \ No. 1,007. i imperial 1 \ eagle. / Foreign Passport. Signature of bearer. ,, ,, (In Russian) ,, ,, (In German) „ ,, (In French) The holder of this is a Burgess of Negnievitz, Merka Reizla -Shebsheleva Sinitzka, 36 years of age, of tne Jewish persuasion—goes abroad with her children: Rokhla, 5 years of age; Meyer, 3 years of age ; and her brother, Itzka Yankel Shebshelev Sinitzky, 15 years of age. Passport duties have been paid to the amount of 15 roubles ; and certification of the above and for her free passage, this Passport is given under the seal. M. Vilna, May 22nd, 1902. Signed for th|e Governor by the Vice-Governor Chamberlain of His Imperial'Majesty, Balasny. seal of the governor. Coupon (Page 19). Given by the Governor of Vilna, 1902, May 22ndr No. 1,007, to Merka Reizla Sinitzka, with her children,.. Rokhla and Meyer, and her brother, Itzka Yankel- Sinitzky. To be impressed with a stamp. As to crossing the Frontier. Yiseed in Libau 20th July 1902 on departure. As to returning from the Frontier.. The foregoing statement is repeated on the following two pages both in German and French. This coupon is to be cut off in the Frontier Customs* House as a proof of its being viseed. This form is to be filled up by the person granting the- passport. Regulations as to Foreign Passports. 1st. From persons going abroad is exacted a pay- ment in the following proportions : For each passport without any limitations as to the number of persona mentioned in the same, 10 roubles for each half-year,. 20 roubles for a year, 30 roubles* for a year and a half, and so on.. 2nd. Passports for going abroad having been granted? in the interior provinces (of Russia) are available for the course of three months, and for the provinces near the frontier for the course of three weeks. After these- periods have elapsed each person intending to go aJbroad has to procure for himself a new passport. 3rd. Persons allowed to go to foreign lands, in case* of necessity to stay there longer than the period men- tioned in the passport, have to address themselves^ with requests for prolongations to the Chief Local Authorities of Provinces from which they have re- ceived passports for going abroad, enclosing along with their requests the money due for the whole time* the passport is extended, at the rate of 10 roubles (now 15 roubles, S. P. B.) for each half-year. 4th. The period of the permitted sojourn abroad for all the Russian subjects with a legal passport in all cases is fixed at five years. * At present the amount has been raised to 15, 3?, and 45 roubles respectively. (S. P. Barten.)MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 745 5th. Russian subjects who are abroad for commer- cial purposes, after the lapse of the legally allowed period, may address themselves for a further permit to stay abroad to the corresponding Russian Missions -(Consulates) if they find they cannot return to Russia (within the time) without suffering loss to their own interests or those entrusted to them by others. 6th. Foreign passports have to be viseed at the Irontier Custom Houses both on going out of Russia and returning thereto. 7th. In cases of passports having expired, on re- turning to Russia there will be levied by the Custom Houses a sum of 10 roubles (15 roubles, S. P. B.) for each full six months, although the time since such expiration should not be more than one month. Annotation.—In cases of expired passports granted in the provinces of the Kingdom of Poland, besides the 10 roubles mentioned in this paragraph, there is to be exacted a supplementary payment amounting . to 5 roubles for every six months (from the expira- , tion). ' 8th.'Those persons who went abroad with a passport granted to several individuals collectively can have, if necessary, separate personal peirmi'ts from Russian (Diplomatic) Missions and Consulates for the period mentioned in the collective passport, with the obliga- tion to pay for each separately granted passport the legal duties at the Frontier Custom House on their returning to Russia. Besides, these Missions or Con- sulates charge at the granting of a separate passport a duty of the amount of two metallic roubles. Extract from the Rules Respecting Passengers' Luggage. 1. Articles being with the passengers, already used, and necessary for them during their travelling, are -regarded as passengers7 luggage. These articles, which do not form merchandise, are allowed to pass in duty free. . Annotation.—Objects whose import from abroad is generally prohibited cannot be counted as luggage allowed to go in free of duty. 2. To articles of passengers' luggage which are allowed to go in duty free, belong: — (1). Clothes, boots and shoes, body linen and towels already used and in a quantity not exceeding the number generally used by the passenger. Annotation. —Pillows, mattresses, table and bed linen, although having been used, are al- lowed duty free, but only in a very limited quantity. (2). Fur garments, as, for instance, fur coats, hats, muffs, etc., one of each article to every passen- ger. (3). Gold, silver, and other metal objects for house- hold use, up to three pounds in weight for each person ; also travelling bags of every description, one for each person. (4). Articles of haberdashery, gold, silver, kand others, two pieces of one description to each person; and toilet trioketry, as rings, pins, links, etc., as many as will be found with the passenger, if they are not apparently brought for sale. Annotation to Paragraphs 3 and 4. (a) All silver articles already used which have been manufactured either in the Empire or in the Kingdom of Poland, and which bear Russian or Warsaw hall-marks of the Assay Offices, are allowed in duty free, and without limitation of quantity. (p) Gold and silver articles allowed with the passenger duty free are returned to the ' passenger without examination of the hall- Major W. E. marks. All others of the same description Evans- will be returned with the duty chargeable Gordon, m.p. according to the tariff, only then when ——• found to be of the legal standard. If 30 April 1903. found to the contrary they will be per- mitted to be sent back. (5) All the above mentioned articles serving for per- sonal use during travelling—in duplicate and new gloves not more than one dozen. Annotation.—To the articles of personal use during the journey do not-belong—kitchen uten- sils, table and tea sets, bronzes, table and hall clocks, curtains, portieres, carpets, and generally all objects which st rvo for the ornamentation or furnishing of rooms. (6) With persons of the medical profession, medical instruments ; with lartists, objects of art necessary to them; with handicraftsmen, tools connected with their craft; with musicians, their hand in- struments ; if all these articles, as to their quan- tity, are apparently not bought for sale. (7) Opened for use—packet of snuff, packet of tobacco, and cigars not more than 100 for each person. (8) Comestibles in a moderate quantity. (9) Cases, trunks, boxes, portmanteaus, bags, etc., which conitain the passenger's personal belongings, as many as there will be found. Annotation.—Under the name of cases, trunk*, boxes, etc., which serve for packing passengers' belongings, there must not. be allowed in duty free cases quite new with bronze and other orna- mentations containing articles only put there for mere appearance sake. (10) Carriages which have been taken abroad from the Empire or Kingdom (of Poland), if there shall be handed in a certificate as to the above given by the Custom House through which the carriage has passed. For all other carriages there is levied a tariff duty, with the option that in case the pas- senger shall go abroad again with the carriage on which the duty is paid, the latter will be paid back to him on his departure if the certificate is presented, which the Custom House who levied the duty on him is bound to deliver to him at his request for this purpose—such certificates are available only for two years from the date of issue, 3. For all passengers' luggage which is not to be passed duty free according to the preceding paragraph (No. 2) a tariff duty must be paid. In this case must be observed (1) That this duty should be levied only on the quantity of articles exceeding the number allowed to pass duty free ; (2) that the above-named duty should not be levied on articles about which there will be pre- sented a certificate that they have formerly been brought out from the Empire or the Kingdom of Poland; and (3) that the duty should not be levied at all in cases where, for the whole of the passenger's property, it will not amount to more than three roubles. 4. Custom House officials, before commencing the inspection of a passenger's luggage, are bound to ask him whether he has among his luggage any goods or articlei in the nature of merchandise, as cloth in bulk and pieces, or sewn together only pro forma in the shape of bed sheets, cloaks, and other wearing apparel, objects of ornamentation of rooms, etc. If the passenger should reply that he does not possess any such goods or articles, but an after inspection discloses them, then on those a double tariff will be levied. With regard to articles concealed by the passengers in secret compart- ments, in false bottoms and sides of boxes or cases, in bored-out axles of carriages, etc., also on their own per- sons, under their dress, in their boots and soiled linen, etc., these are confiscated, according to the general rule, as secretly carried over the border. The confiscation of such goods is preceded by a protocol made under the sig- natures of the officials who actually inspected the same, &.nd of the passenger, xi he does not refuse to, do so. 5. Articles dutiable, but brought by passenger* in such quantities that it can be judged from them, that they 6144. &:im ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Major* -Ufo 'e. a*e not intended for sale, and jf the tariff duty shall not A.Evaniiv, v. amount ,to mora than60, roubles for one person or one Gordon, -m.p. family, are inspected without the passengers presenting j* r^Ti^no1, written;declarations, and are returned after being regis- 30 April ±90.,. ter^.jn % ^ presCrib^ fbrm®. Meanwhile, if the passenger shall. npt- wdshvto, *pay *duties for these articles, it is permitted to him to send the articles back over the frontier. 6. In cas^ When ^er dt^iS on articles brought over by the passengers in.'the nature of merchandise should amount toi fttore than 60 roubles for one person or a family, wi$* regard to siich articles there must be handed M-a written declarationj and they are regarded, as to Chistom House formalities, as merchandise coming under the general regulations. " 7. Such' articles as are not with the passengers, but are sent' in Separately, are not regarded as passengers' luggage, except those bearing evident traces of being usefl when they are brought to i|ie Seaport "Custom Houses, and those on the railways!, as well as. to the Ciistom warehouses in Moscow- and Warsaw; such article* can be passed, according to rules as to passengers, duty free, with the permission of the directors of such Cus- tom Houses, after it shall be proved that the articles really belong to:ithe persons arrived from"abroad: 8. The rules regarding the passengers' luggage apply to all European Custom Houses and barriers, without distinction of rights given to them as to clearing up of goods; according to the general rules for the action of the tariff. By this, if amongst the passengers' luggage there'shall be found articles which are not allowed to be passed:* according to the general regulations, through the Custom House or barrier to which they were brought, then it is permissible to clear them up to the amount of the duty payable, 60 roubles for each person or family. In case the above-men tioned articles are brought to such a CustoM* House or barrier to a higher amount, they ;mu|i b^t^gatdeii as merchandise brought to such Custom Hcitise, where their entry is forbidden. 9. If the passenger should prefer that parcels should not be inspected at the different Custoui Houses, such articles^ after being sealed up in a proper manner, are returned to him, according to the Parcel Post regula- tions, for the.purpose of presenting them for inspection . in the Customs warehouse; the latter is immediately in- formed about it by the Frontier Customs, whether any articles out of the number allowed to be brought over duty free, only in a prescribed quantity, have already ! been returned to the passengers; and the Customs ware- house, where the sealed-up parcels will be sent to, is hound, when returning the parcels,. to take' into con- sideration tfe Mfbrmaiion given by th? Frontier Custom House. Legal Eight Days'Permit. ■i Certification by - the Custom House Authorities. sideration tfe Mfbrmaiion given by th? Frontier Custom House. No. 158/1323. Via GERBY. No. 158/1323. Via GERBY. The bearer of this Friedlia Shifer, inhabitant of ( Jjlnsasianr Polish Jew?1—The Bussian-Polish Jew is. a fresh arrival. , ;20l>79. (Sitit^endm Are .they some of. those who .come in . such numbers to the East .End, and land ^t the docks, vand have only been here a short time ? —Yes, a good number of them. ; ' - 20580-. You say a great number of them cannot talk lEnglish.?—A great number of them, I'was told, cannot speak English. 20581. You are speaking of this affection to the eyes? r—Yes. . 20582. In what condition did you find them?—I did not find any with this disease of. the eye, contagious pphthalmia. 20583. Is that the proper name of it?—No; it is granular ophthalmia. ... 20584r (Major Evans-Gordon.) Trachoma ?—No; tra- choma is only one of the symptoms • 20585., .(Sir Kenelm Digby.) The disease is granular djphthalmia ?—Yes, or Egyptian ophthalmia. It is the same thing. ' 20586.. But that would exhibit, among other things, this symptom of trachoma?—Yes; it means a rough- ness of the lidis. 20587. Would you say what you desire to say to the Commission ?-^ What I really came for was to make clear a little point that Dr. Tyrrell brought forward in Ms -evidence. I have not had the advantage of having «an official copy of the evidence before me, but I have onlyr;had., the " Jewish Chronicle.'" , In the," Jewish <}hr6nicje" it ^as-stated^that Dr., Tyrrell was asked .to give a certificate about certain children, which lie never was asked to do. The children were sent to me by Dr. Cohen, with a covering letter enclosing a letter from the Board of Guardians. 20588- These same children, that Dr. Tyrrell was speaking about ?—Yes ; they were sent to me, and as I only attend at Moorfieldis twice a week, and the children "want to be looked at every day, they were handed over; in a routine way, to Dr. Tyrrell, who then oc- cupied the position of junior out-patient surgical officer at the hospital ; and I must have shown him, and, ap- parently, the kept, this letter, which was sent to me, and then, later on, they were to< haye come to me for a certifi- cate, instead of which he makes put that he was asked to give a certificate, which was not the case. That, was - the' original reason for my coming here. Then, also, lie made some other statements about trachoma, making out, in the first place, that it is practically incurable, -t i which is: not the case at -alj. It is very intractable,, the reason being that it can be cured only by the application of caustics, which are very painful, and as soon as the patient feels well—although he is not well— he then ceases attending ; and if he ceases attending before he is perfectly cured he is sure to relapse, and the result is they go on relapsing time after time, and they go on for a great number of years, and if it is not well attended to they do not get well; but it is quite a •curable disease. , I have cured many a case. 20589. It requires time ?—'Simply time and perse- verance. ..... • 20590- (Chairman.) The main point we want to know about is: are the alien children answerable for spread- ing disease that would not exist here without them? ' —I was just going to mention thfat. It is a disease that is not peculiar to Jews at all; it is universal all over the world. In China the Chinese suffer terribly from it- In Australia they have what 4>he^ call Sandy blight. In Egypt\it is extremely common ; it is known as Egyptian ophthalmia, and Sir Ernest Cassel has divert a larre slim of money for the purpose of research being made into the subject, and also to find some way of curing it . in a more expeditious and satisfactory manner. In Ire- land, half the patients in the parish hospitals have got ..this disease.. So that the Jews, if they do bring it over, • .-were not the originators of the disease ; and they are not spreading it, because I took the trouble to visit this school, and I have got the report, also, from the Bell Lane Free School, where they have 2,000 children, 6144. and there the disease is not known. If .they were spread- Mr. W. ing it, the first people they would spread it amongst Lang,f.i£c. would be the children attending this school, and — I sho ild see' them'ai'iboitH my hospitals At Moorfields, ^ May 1933 where they attend on Saturdays principally■, I rarely see a Jeivish patient suffering from the disease. They are all concentrated on one day. In the West End, where I attend on two days a week, I should get any of the Jewish children suffering from this disease coming from that centre, which is a large centre, in Soho. I am quite sure, that these aliens^-and I have not the least doubt that some of them do come with the disease—are not spreading it, and I attribute that to the different conditions under which they live here and. those from whence thev came. 30591. (Sir lienelm Digby) Supposing they come with this disease upon them, and did not recover from it, and were not treated properly, should you, in your experi- ence, know of that ?—Yes. I ami the surgeon to the In- stitute for the Belief of the Indigent Blind of the Jewish Persuasion, and they would* come under my ob- servation for a certificate, because I see all the indigent blind that come to that society, and I suppose that this society maintains the whole of. the indigent blind Jews. They support them entirely ; they do not come at all on the English rates ; they are kept entirely by their own people, and I see every one of them, and I have never seen an individual blind from this disease. 20592. If the disease is neglected and not properly treated it' would probably produce blindness ?—Yes, certainly it would lead to their being unable to follow any occupation, and the Jew, even if he is blind in the ordinary acceptation of not being able to see light from dark, would come under my observation; so I should see him under any circumstances. 20593. Just follow it out . in stages. Would you say that the Jewish children, when they pome here are. more or lesS subject to this disease than native children %—• I should think they might be about the same. The Poor Law school children are extremely liable to it. The London. County Council have just built two large hospitals—I think school hospitals'—where they admit these children, as the disease is known to last so long, and as it cam relapse so e'asily that even when they appear to be cured, they are going to* keep them in future and educate them, at the schools. ■ 20594. (Mr- Vallance.) Are you quite sure it is the London County Council ? Is it not the Metropolitan Asylums Board ?—I understood it was the London County Council, but it may be the Metropolitan Asylums Board. It is quite new. 20595. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say that the Jewish ohildr m are about_as -subject to this disease, in the first instance, as English children living under somewhat similar conditions?—Exactly; no worse. 20596. And that the Jewish children do, apparently, recover from the disease. There is no great number of them who' develop the disease to a serious extent, I gather from your evidence?1—I should say, distinctly not. 20597. To what do you attribute that, if that is the case?—<1 should think the probabilities! are that they live under much better sanitary conditions.. Although they may be poor, they are very much better than where they came from. That is supposition. 20598. Not only better than where they came from ?—. I should think they would be better treated. They 20661. The Jewish working man can fight his own, battles ?—Exactly, and I will endeavour to prove it is the shopkeeper. 20662. What does the Jewish tailor when a journey- man earn?—It varies from 7s. 6d. to 8s. a day to 10s. 6d. or lis. a day. These are tailors, not machiners or pressers, because machiners and pressers work piece work. 20663. When you say the Jewish tailor can earn that money, do you mean- that he can ©arii that within a reasonable time after coming to this country? How long would he have to be in this country to acquire sufficient knowledge of his trade?—Eighteen months or two years. 20664. When a foreigner comes into this couhtrv and Mr. B. A Fersht. has to acquire the trade of a tailor, then he is able U earn from 7s. 6d. tolls, per day?—When he first comes here, I do not know how, but he has to acquire the art. 4 May 1903. He has to accustom himself to such matters, and then - he will be perhaps receiving 4s. 6d. to 5s. a day; but that would be only for two or three weeks. 20665. Many of those people bring the tailoring trade with them ?—Not " many " ; I should think the larger majority—perhaps 95 or 98 per cent, have come here as tailors. 20666. That would 'be " many " ?—'But I want to be more emphatic about it—that is all. 20667. Has the sub-division of labour in the Jewish trades contributed to the prosperity of the trade?1—■ Yes, I think so. 20668. What experience have you had in the West Central district as regards overcrowding?—My experi- ence as regards overcrowding in the West Central dis- trict is that no case can be made out there against the foreigner at all. I have a paper here that was handed to me, showing that within a few years, between 1891 and 1901, there were 181 houses demolished, displacing some 3,620 people. 20669. (Chairman.) Where is this?—In the West Central district. I have here a list of the houses de- molished in the given streets, and these residential houses have given place to warehouses, workshops, and so* on. 20670. (Mr. Vallance.) When we are speaking of over- crowding, it can really only prevail where there is a large poor population and a. congestion of population? —Yes. 20671. Is there any special part of the West Central district in which the poor live under the poorest condi- tions ?'—Not to my knowledge. 20672. The West Central district is largely composed! of good residences or -business houses ?i—Yes. 20673. (Chairman.) We have no particular evidence - of overcrowding in the West Central district, but it has been rather confined to Stepney and the East End.... Do you know anything about the East End?—Yes, I know a good deal about the East End as well. 20674. (Mr. Vallance.) Is there any particular area in the Wrest Central district in whiich there is a conges- tion of poor population?—Not to my knowledge, although I have been there the whole of the time. 20675. Then the question of overcrowding does not arise. Are you prepared to say that the Jews are not predisposed to overcrowding any more than other people ?—No, certainly they are not. 20676. Have you had any experience of the increase. which has taken place in the rents of houses and tene- ments occupied by the very poor?—Yes, as far as I know, rents have increased fully 75 per cent, withiik the last 18 or 20 years. 20677. What district liave you got in your mind ?— I am speaking chiefly of that district bordered on the ■ north by Oxford Street and on the south by Pall Mall? , because that is the district in which the working classes.. chiefly live. 20678. The Soho district?'—Yes, and I am embracin ;; part of the West Central district as well. On the eas, , it would be bordered by High Street, Bloomsbury, an L on the west by Regent Street. 20679. That is the area in which a large number o; foreign poor reside?—Yes. 20680. But they i.,re not, for the most part, Jews?— No. 20681. They are Italians, French, Germans, and so on?—Yes, and Swiss. 20682. To what do you attribute the increase of rents; in that district especially?—The demand for the spac^ that was occupied by residential, houses and is novv> required for warehouses and workshops. Some score , of houses have been demolished, and there is the ero tion of very large electric works, There is a very .) brewery in Broad Street, Golden Square, whi°\ U gradually acquiring additional houses for the exteu i.i • of the brewery. 20683. Has the increased demand for houses :.n I750 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. B. A. Fersht. 41|a^lp03. jft tenements been the result of any artificial importation of foreigners, or has it been owiijg to^therimt^rall ^ov^f ment of trade?—To the natural movement of trade, I should say, and not to the increase of foreigners at all; because, notwithstanding the increase of foreigners . there, if " we take the Census for 1901 we will find that tilery has been a'larger decrease in the number of ^resi- dents there than the actual number of the increase of foreigners. 20684. You take issue with those who say there has been any large displacemeaut of English residents by a foreign population ?---I would riot siay at all "that the foreign population has displaced thetm. 20685. Have you any experience of the,, East End witli regard to the population ?—Yes ;, T have con- siderable experience in the East End. Part ofthe East Eride is exactly the same that of the West^ 20686. But supposing, as no doubt is the case, that a large number of aliens come into an already con- gested ! area;, can they do so without gradually dis- placing the native'population ?—-No, I do not see how they can come in if the place is already full. How can they get there at. all ? 20687. (Chairman.) By- turniiig the others' out?-— They do not turn the others otit. 20688. If they did not come in there—these many thousands—-surely there would be more house ^accommo- dation for the natives ?—I cannot Say that, my Lord, because I contend that a man only rents a room when that room is to let. A man only rents a shop when that shop is to let; but I question whether anybody would go to the landlord and say, "Turn that man out, and I will rent that room of you." 20689. (Mr. Vallante.) Does not the, tenant, who is already fully occupying that hous<3, invite the new arrivals to come and share with him until they can find some- other f)lace to go to, -and .then;; by ^ gradual pro- cess, the original residents are being elbowed out P— No, I would not admit that. It may be the case in one or two instances, and it has been stated so by people who have a superficial knowledge of things. 20690. Such a thing may be possible, but it does not come within your experience ?—No. : 20691. (Chairman.) Supposingthe landlord knows lie, can get 10s. a week from the foreigner, who sleep -eight or nine in a room, and he can only get 7s. a week, from the native ; would he not turn out. the na,ti,ve, who would only sleep two in a room?—rHe would have to take his chance of .the foreigners coining along, • but I do not believe the foreigners will come along. • 20692. We have had evidence given here upon that subject ?—But the evidence has been contradicted by .several, other witnesses. ..... 20693. {Mr. Vallance.) Would you desire to say any-, ^hing on the question of gambling and immorality ?— Gambling, of course, goes on to a very great extent in 'the "West Central district, which probably is known to be, the most immoral district in London ; but, as ; is well known, that district is the centre for pleasure, and wherever there is a centre of pleasure vice seems to follow. But I think that that can be eradicated by very active measures and steps , to be taken by tiie ... police. I do not think the police are sufficiently active m that matter. I would further point out that this is nothingl new in the district. It cannot be said it w^/S . brought into the neighbourhood by foreigners * within the last 20 or 30 years, because I find', in a book entitled " Two Centuries of Soho," written by the ' clergy of Soho, the Revs. Car dwell, Freeman, and Wil- ton, this statement: "Disorderly houses. There is an .important work, in which the Vestry has of late been specially engaged, to which some reference must be made—the suppression of disorderly houses. Early in :the century this evil was beginning to make itself felt .but not to the same extent as in the last 40 or 50 years' ^during which the neighbourhood has gradually become more and more the centre of London's amusements and^ pleasure seeking. Frequent references to this subject are to be found in the Vestry minutes, especi- ally for the years 1867 and 1868. In the latter year a petition was sent to Parliament, asking. for special legislation on the subject. Very little way, however was ^matfe in combating the evil, and in, 1895 some of the Vestrymen, notaJbly Mr, Henry Wilson, feeling the terrible conditions into Which the parish was sinking by the ever-increasing invasion of vice, determined to wove their fellow-Vestrymen to take some immediate and resolute action." Some action was taken at the ,• $1^, .'jbh.e^^t^-ned^ 14 convictions, and 24 houses were closed, ah3 some 70 notices were served on land- lords ; but that is only a fraction of the evil. I had occasion to speak with Mr. Wilson on the matter J and, while he congratulated himself on having done a great deal, what he succeeded in doing was. so . drive.hthem from. the parish of St. Anne's into the parish of St. James; and I .contend that it must be to. the know- ledge of the police that the neighbourhood is infested with these people. Take the fiats situated" along, Shaftesbury Avenue, and in the streets running, off Shaftesbury Avenue ; they are only let for purposes of this kind. We know that the neighbourhood is in- fested by hundreds of women at night, and I firmly believe that if the police would but attempt to act very sternly in, the matter, and, perhaps, in a way that would not commend itself to others, and watch these people, say, in private clothes, and raid these places at a given time, they would succeed in shuttiiig down many more houses within a few weeks than did Mr. Wilson and his committee in so many months or so many years. 20694. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What power do you sug- gest the police have to raid these places ?—I think the police have not sufficient power, but power should be given to them. At present they depend upon sworn evidence that- a house is a disorderly house. ~ 20695. (Mr. Vallance.) What do you wish the Com- mission to infer from this evidence : that while vice prevails the Jewish population do not contribute to it? —Certainly. 20696. It has been given in evidence that in certain parts of the East End Jewish prostitution has largely increased, and seriously increased. Have you any knowledge of that?—Yes, I have a slight knowledge of that, and I go as far as to say that the whole body of Jews cannot be described as paragons of virtue. Every human being has his vices and her vices, and if one or two fall victims to them, I contend it is not sufficient to say that the Jews, as a body are addicted to vice. 20697. You would not dispute the evidence that has been given?—I would dispute that it had largely in- creased. That there may be found one or two, or even more than that, I would not dispute. 20698. But if the magistrates and clergy, who know all about it, say so, what would you say ?—I should certainly bow to the opinion of the magistrate if he said, that it had largely increased, but the figures that were given before this Commission by the magistrate, I do not think, show it has largely increased. 20699. Supposing A or B presents herself as an im- migrant into this country, and it can be shown (I am not jgoing into the question of how it is to be shown) that she is. a woman of bad character, do you say the country would be justified in admitting her P^—No, I think the country would not be justified < in admitting her, if such inquiries were instituted, and if it was. pos- sible to make such inquiries. May I read this note that I have prepared, because it bears rather largely on the question ? 20700. (Chairman.) We cannot have all this matter upon our note, because it is rather voluminous ?_It is not very voluminous, but it is slightly more elaborate than the statement I sent in to the Commission. -, It has special bearing on the industry of the tailorino- trade. 20701. Do you want to read the whole of this ?—I do not think it would be wasting the time of the Com- mission. ., 20702. Have you not given the bulk of your evidence m what you have already said ?—No, my Lord. 20703. (Mr. Vallance.) Is there any special point you want to refer to?—What I wanted to refer to was the tailoring industry, a® carried on in the West Central district, and with regard to the workshops that there are round about there. They were said by Mr. Evans not to be at all desirable workshops. I want to speak upon that, as well as on the causes that have contri- buted to the high rents. I attribute the blame to the house agents, and I wish to prove how I put the blame upon them. I do not think that the time1 of the Com- mission would be wasted. 20704. (Chairman.) That is for us to judge. This statement represents 18 sheets of very closely written matter. It is rather too long for us to put upon ourMINUTES QF EVIDENCE. 751 notes, but if you have any material fact to state, please state it. All this is argument, and we only want material facts from you ?—I would point out that the case, of the tailors in the West Central district cannot be placed upon a level with the tailors in the East End of London, and I have made it my business to see the Secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Tailors, and the ' Secretary of the Amalgamated Society ot Tailors told me that he did not regard the Jew in the West Central district as a Competitor in trade. He thought the class of trade the English tailor did in tne West End of London the Jew would not compete with, and he therefore said that his committee were con- sidering the, question of giving evidence before this Commission, %ut:;they; CO:uld ^not make out any case against the Jew# at-ally and, consequently, they would . not come here to -give evidence. The Jew tailor ir. the West Central district is subjected to a great deal of abuse. -He works for more than one shop. He natu* ally has to, because the work is seasonal. There are only six or seven weeks' business in one season, and six or seven weeks in the slack time, and unless they work for separate shops, they could never get sufficient to keep themselves employed and their employees, s These shops have a most peculiar method. 20705. This detail is not of tlie slightest use to us. • We have to determine whether the alien coming here is injuring the trade. The contrast between, the East End and the West End is nothing at all of importance to us. What have you to< say about the alien immi- grant interfering with the British workman's tfUde?—■ In the West Central district he has not interfered with him at all, because he has followed an industry pecu- liarly his own, and the English tailor was never very much in evidence there. They were chiefly Irish tailors, and, as is known, the Irish tailor was always very unsteady. There were foreigners before the Jews, and they were treated well, and prepared the way for a Sympathetic reception being given to the Jews when they came here. 20706. Is there any matter of fact you want to state ? ^As far as the workshops go, I would mention this, that while Jews are said to be working in dwelling rooms, my experience shows me that they do not live in the so-called workshops, or work in the living rooms. They use rooms for workshops which are not built for this particular purpose, and, I think, if a registration system were introduced, and registration could be re- fused to any of these people having workshops opening- out into any living room at all, it would tend to im- prove the conditions under which they work ; and, while it would be a hardship upon them to obtain these certificates, it would, nevertheless, be very much bet- ter than allowing things to go on till a larger inquiry became necessary. 20707. (Sir -Kenelm Digby.) You advocate certifying workshops ?—Yes. 20708. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Would you say that the conditions in the West Central district are better than they are in the East End ?—Certainly. 20709. Therefore, the people move from the East End in order to better their living conditions ?—Yes. 20710. I understand that you are speaking from your knowledge mainly for Jews and about Jews?—Yes. 20711. But the Jews in that part of the West Cen- tral district are not a large proportion of the foreign population, are they ?—About 30 or 35 per cent, of the whole foreign population are Jews. 20712. You speak for them?—Yes. 20713. You do not speak for the conditions under which the other foreign population live?—No. 20714. There are slums in that district, are there not ?-—I cannot say there are slums, in the same sense as they are to be found in other districts. There are- certainly poverty-stricken streets. 20715. Narrow and overcrowded streets. Is there that great pressure of population in that part of Lon- don?—No, I do not think there is a great pressure of population. 20716., Then your observations do not coincide with my own in that particular ?—Two men approach things froni different points of view. 20717. I understand you to say that in the East End this very large foreign population coming from out- side, 60,000 or 70,000, have all come in, and found vacant places for them ?—No, I do not say that, be- cause I do not believe that 60,000 or 70,000 have come in and plumped themselves down. 20718. There they are—it does not matter whether they have plumped themselves down—they are there ? —Yes ; but you must take into account during these numbers of ^ears how many have been added by natural causes. 20719. By being born in this country, you mean?— Yes, certainly. 20720. Those are quite outside that number. Those people are British subjects, who are, born in this country ?—I am glad to hear Major Gordon say that, 20721. They have added enormously to the popula- tion, but I am talking now of those who are returned in the Census return as foreigners. Two years ago there were 54,000. You say those people have come in the East End, and have found house accommodation vacant, and there lias been no displacement of the English population ?—I do not believe there has been wilful displacement. 20722. It might not be wilful, but they have to find somewhere to go to, and the other people have to find some place, too ?—I think it would •be attributing too* much credit to the Jew to say he has displaced them, and you are not crediting the Englishmen enough whem you say that the alien has driven him away. .20723. But suppose the rents are raised to a point that the native cannot pay, would not that be pres- sure?—That would be pressure, if they are raised, for • that particular purpose. 20724. Would you be surprised to hear that in the last week there are three families in one street in Step- ney, Jews, who have been elected by another foreigner from their house, and they have made bitter complaints \ about it ?—I would not be at all surprised. 20725. That is the sort of thing that is going on ?— Some people are ejected for nothing, and some people are ejected for good reason. 20726. With regard to the immorality and the raid- ing of houses by the -police, you spoke of one district, having been improved ?—The parish of St. Anne's. 20727. But that has been done by raiding people.- there ?—Yes. 20728. By raiding them you have not extirpated them ? They have moved somewhere else, I imagine P—Yes, that is just what I contended with Mr. Wilson, who prided, himself on the fact. _ 20729. The clearing of St. Anne's means the degenera- tion of some other neighbouring district?—Yes. 20730. Then your policy would merely result in this: that you would move on the vicious and undesirable - population from one district to another ?—No, I would not, because I think steps should be taken in all dis- tricts at one given time ; and I believe that the habitual . prosecution of these people would either drive them from the district, if they wished to carry on these • nefarious practices, or they would have to desist from so doing. 20731. Would you object to people of that class beinsr sent back to their own country ?—That is just what 1 should wish to do. 20732. Or would you object to their being kept out and prevented from landing here, if you could prevent, them?—If there are any means of preventing them, which I do not see at present. 20733. You would not object on principle ?—No, cer- tainly not. Mr. B. At Fersht 4 May 1903 Mr. Isaac Asher Isaacs, called ; and Examined. 20734. (Sir Kenelm Digby yYou are Secretary of the showing Hie Jewish foreigners relieved in Manchester Manchester Jewash,Board of Guardians ?-I am Clerk. Would you, first of all, txplain aW the MV L A* 20735; You live-at 18, Knowsley Street, Cheetham, ?®ard ?! Guardians ?—The Manchester Jewish Manchester ?—Yes. ' -Board of Guardians is a kind of replica of the London 20736. You fat of752 HOY.VL COMMISSION ON" ALIEN IMMIGRATION Mr, I. A. Isaacs. 4 May 1903. English people who come from other towns, unless they have resided in Manchester for six months; any Jew residing in Manchester under six months would be what we call a casual, and he or she would be entitled to a maximum amount of 2s. 6d. for the whole of that period. The policy of the Board of Guardians is not to attract Jewish people either from abroad or from any other English town. 20737. {Major Evans-Gordon.) The whole of what period ?—Six months ; 2s. 6d. during the six months. 20738. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Who pays that?1—The Jewish Board of Guardians. If the people get over the first six months without amy further trouble, then we consider that they are entitled to relief in the ordi- nary way. The same law operates with regard to our loan department. We lend no money to people who have been in Manchester under six months'. 20739. Then, as I understand, if a Jew came to Man- chester for the first time, the Jewish Board of Guardians assists him to that extent for six months, giving him 2s. 6d. a week ?—No; 2s. 6d. altogether. There is a vast difference. 20740. They give him 2s. 6d. to begin with ?—Yes, it is quite a temporary allowance. 20741. What are the sort of people who come to Manchester? Are they people who come quite fresh from seaports 1—We are a port and yet we are not a port. 20742. You do not get the Jews coming straight to ^Manchester ?—No. 20743. They do not come by the Manchester Ship 'sOanal ?—No. 20744. Do they come from London, or Hull and ^Grimsby?—All parts of the kingdom—from various -towns. 2C745. Do they come immediately after landing in the form of what we know in London as greeners ?— They do not come direct—at least, a very small portion come direct to Manchester. I went to the trouble of going through the figures of the people who arrive! here during, the year 1901-02. 20746.. Perhaps we will take that part of your evi- i dence first?—I have not prepared a statement, but I am prepared to answer any questions as far as I can. In the third table we find that in the year 1901-02 there were 266 cases who arrived in Manchester .during the year. Of this number 232 had been in Manchester The Tables were handed in as follows : TABLE A. less than six months, and of this 232, 45 only came direct to Manchester; 187 had previously been in other English towns before they came to 'Manchester, that is to say, only 20 per cent, came direct to Manchester, 80 per cent, of these people had been living in other English towns. 20747. Would they have tried their hands in other towns and have failed, and come on?—Yes, undoubt- edly. The probability would be that most of these people would have figured in the returns of other Boards of Guardians or Hebrew congregations in other towns they had passed through. 20748. These foreigners come, and they are not en- titled to relief fronn your Board of Guardians till they have been there six months ?—Exactly. 20749. During those six months do many of them get on the rates ?—I do not think any of them get on the rates, but the Jewish Board of Guardians deal with all cases of Jews, except those sick cases which, not being suitable for the public hospitals, would have to go to the parochial hospitals, imbeciles, and deserted women, where we want to use the machinery of the law to get hold of the husbands. In every other case the Jewish Board of Guardians assists. We never send a case to the parish except in those instances. 20750. Do you mean even if they have not been here for six months ?—Our experience is they do not apply; they do not come to us, and they do not go there. 20751. What, as a general rule, becomes of them during those six months? Do they get employment and get wages ?—That I cannot say. All I can say is they do not trouble us; our practice becomes so well known that it is very seldom that a man comes to us a second time during the six months. Our rule is too well known out of doors. 20752. You say that 70 applicants under six months were refused during 1901-02?—Yes, from varipus rea- sons. 20753. Then you have a table on that same page, as to the traces of the foreigners in Manchester?—Yes. 20754. Tailors are very much the largest number. The trades are numerous, and the numbers in each trade are small, with the exception of hawkers, 30 ? —Yes, - 20755. They seem to be the only figures of any number, and then you have got cap-makers, cutters, etc., 13. Evidently the boot and shoe trade does not prevail much in Manchester ?—No. Jewish Foreigners Relieved in Manchester ; Cases. Above a Year. Under a Year. Year. Married Widows &e. Single. Total. Married Widows &c. Single. Total. Total Individuals. .1882 . 189 6 195 32 139 171 1,196 - 1883 - 164 6 170 56 178 234 1,179 1884 - 195 8 203 35 124 159 1,201 1885 _ - 192 4 196 44 172 216 1,281 JMQ - 179 7 186 54 214 268 1,311 "1887 . " 182 10 192 64 207 271 1,445 1888 - 213 11 224 42 170 212 1,421 1889 - 170 16 186 24 143 167 1,095 1890 .T - 179 17 196 27 127 154 1,133 ? ' » - 190 , 27 217 24 211 235 1,243 1892 - * 190 42 232 44 229 273 1,379 CO C5 QO - - 206 30 236 31 196 227 1,278 1894 - - 224 36 260 30 213 243 1,479 1895 - 206 29 235 23 214 237 1,355 1896 - 193 23 216 18 212 230 1,176 1897 196 16 212 21 195 216 1,238 1898 , - 196 26 222 24 185 1209 1,289 1899 1 - 201 19 220 31 175 206 1,322 1900 - > 163 8 171 28 139 167 1,033 li901 - 200 22 222 42 233 275 1,391 km . * 233 27 260 47 219 *266 1,508 Jewish Foreigners Relieved in Manchester ; Cases.MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 753 Mr. I. A. TABLE B. Isaacs. 4 May 1903. Foreigners Relieved. Classification according to Country. Above a Year. Under a Year. Year. Germans and Austrians. Russians and Poles. Other Coun- tries. Total. Germans, and Austrians. Russians and Poles. Other Coun- tries. Total. Grand Total. 1882 - 2 193 - 195 36 125 10 171 366 1883 - 5 163 2 170 47 179 8 234 404 1884 - 5 196 2 203 45 102 12 159 362 1885 - 8 186 2 196 41 • 160 15 216 412 1886 - 5 180 1 186 40 215 13 268 454 1887 - 8 184 - 192 37 214 20 271 463 1888 - 5 213 6 224 40 148 24 212 436 1889 3 178 5 186 39 110 18 167 365 1890 7 182 7 196 42 97 15 154 350 1891 11 201 5 217 60 162 13 235 452 1892 - 19 205 8 232 44 210 19 273 505 1893 14 218 4 236 38 176 13 227 463 1894 - 14 241 5 260 37 192 14 284 503 1895 - 14 217 4 235 70 139 28 237 472 1896 - - - - 13 201 2 216 78 124 28 230 446 1897 - 10 198 4 212 75 112 29 216 428 1898 - 14 206 2 222 56 134 19 209 436 1899 - 15 200 5 220 59 126 21 206 426 1900 - 8 158 5 171 53 82 32 167 338 1901 - 19 195 8 222 86 130 59 275 497 1902 - 17 235 8 260 91 150 25 266 526, Classification according to Country. TABLE C. Natives Relieved ; Cases. Year. Here above a Year. Here under a Year. Total. Individuals Cases. 1882 - 2 20 22 29 1883 4 12 16 34 1884 . - - - 6 8 14 33 1885 - 0 10 10 10 1886 - 1 10 11 13 1887- - - - - 4 7 11 18 1888 - 2 5 7 9^ 1889 - 4 7 11 17 1890 3 14 3CT 1891 - 5 9 14 28 1892 - 3 8 11 14 1893 - 5 12 17 35 1894 - 6 15 21 32 1895 - 10 17 27 49 1896 - 7 24 31 60 1897 - 6 18 24 50 1898 - 7 14 21 27 1899 - 2 22 24 28 1900 - 4 12 16 34 .1901 - 6 11 17 38 1902 - 4 3 7 11 Natives Relieved ; Cases. 6144 6144754 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr,, L A. Isaacs. 4 May 1903. TABLE D. Ages of Foreigners in Manchester under 1 Year who arrived in 1901-02. Relieved. Under 40 years of age From 40 to 50 years of age Over 50 years - - - ......210 • - 32- .....' - - 24 ............................. "■ ; . ... .. , , " . *266 ........* Of this number 232 had been in Manchester less than six months, and of these (232) 45 came direct to Manchester and 187 had previously stayed in other towns ( = 80 %). ' In addition 70 applicants here under six months were refused outright. TABLE E. Trades of Foreigners in Manchester under 1 Year, 1901-2. ;; Acrobat - - 1 Dyer - - 1 Picture framer r 1 ! Bakers : - - 4 Electricians - 2 Porters - 3 j Barbers 2 Electrical engineer - 1 Portmanteau maker - 1 - i Bookbinders - 3 Fringe weaver - - 1 Poultry dealer - 1 : Boot latter - 1 Fruit hawkers - - 3 Plumber - 1 :: Boot, shoe, and slipper Furriers - - 4 Printers 2 makers - 7 Brass founder General dealers - ~ 1 Tailors, pressers, and ma- 1 chiners - 31 ' v. -i Glass blower - 1 : , Brewer - 1 Travellers. - 4 Glaziers - - 2 Butchers - 3 Glove maker - 1 ' Salesman - 1 Button holer - - - Shohetim and teachers 4 T Hawkers - - 30 Capmakers, cutters, &c. Ship's steward - 1 13 Labourer - .......- - 1 Cabinet makers and joiners Sempstress - 1 9 Ladies'tailor - 1 Cigar maker - - - Upholsterers 5 1 Laundryman - 1 Clerks..... Vocalist ...... .....-..... . 1 5 Leather cutters - - 2 'Compositors Waterproof ers - 3 2 Locksmiths - 3 'Cook's mate Waiters 3 1 Mechanic - - 1 Coppersmith Wine-cellarman - 1 1 Mill hand - - 1 Draper - Total - - - 187 1 Musicians - - 2 Draughtsman - Without trades - - ; - • 79 1 Painters - - 6 * Total - - - 266 20756. Now, your first table gives the number of Jewish foreigners relieved in Manchester oases. That extends from 1882 to 1902, and just comparing those two years you have in 1882 189 married people and widows, 6 single, total 195, who have been in Man- chester above a year; and 32 married and widows, 139 single, total, 171, who • have been in Manchester uinder a year; making a total number of individuals relieved 1,196?—Yes. 20757. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That total refers to above a year and under a year. 20758. 1,196 individuals?—Yes. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Where does the 1,196 come from ? 20759. (Major Evans-Gordon.) One is the number of cases, and the other the number of individuals ?—The 1,196 are the individuals comprised in the total number of cases. 20760. The cases include the numbers in the whole family ?—Yes, -a case includes the number of individuals in each family. 20761. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Comparing that with 20 .. years afterwards you have 233 married people and widows, 27 single, making ai total of 260 who have been in Manchester above a year; 47 married and widows ; 219 single, making a total of 266 who Jhave been m Manchester under a year, which, together, make a total of 1,508 individuals, as compared with 1,196 in 1882?—Yes. 20762. Has the Jewish population very much in- creased during that time ?—Yes, it must have at least trebled itself, I should think. We have no reliable data. 20763. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The foreigners and Jews have trebled themselves ?—I am speaking of the Jewish community. 20764. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) If the figures have in- creased in that proportion it does not look very much as if there was an increase of poverty among the Jews f —No ; we consider the poverty quite normal. If you refer back, for instance, to the year 1894 you will Imd in that year we had 1,479 individuals relieved, and in the year 1902 we had 1,506, so that the figures fluctuate up and down, but not by much. 20765. They .vary witli the .state of trade,, J suppose? —Yes. .....'MINUTES . OF EVIDENCE. 755 20766. I dp not know whether it is necessary to go Then you have; a table show- ing the classification of these foreigners according to counl% $--Yes: z y^ur-.- 1..... 20767. That again is divided into the total above a ye&r ^d^und^r a'year, and ther e we find that the Rus- sians -and' Poles are much more numerous than any othersl—Ye^s. ■ 20768. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They predominate all through ^Yes; r 20769. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Taking those'figures again above ^'-ye&i"; in 11882 there were two Germans and Austrian® and 193;ltti.ssiain-s &fid PoIes~?—*Yesl fr; i 2Q77D,\ Under a year there were 36 Germans and Austrians and 125 Russians and Poles and 10 other countries ?—Yes. 20771. Making a grand total: of 366. Now we come to 1902. We find 17 Germans and Austriaiis and 235 Russians and Poles. They do not appear tO'have!;in- creased inJanything like the same proportion as the Germans and Austrians have increased ?—No. 20772. Then other countries, 8, making a total of 260 P—Yes, 20773». (Chairman.) Do you acept these figures, th;«t pi$y; of Mip^liester, ■, a§ apart from Salford, in the Cenfu$ of 1901 ithere were 6,626 males and 5,111 fejtoales,. of :wh(^m pf the males 3,780 were Russians and Poles and 3,358 of the females, were Russians and Poles, making a total of 7,138 males and females, Russians and Poles) Therefore, of the whole of the foreigners in Man- chester considerably more than half were Russians and Poles, Germans coming next P—Yes. 20774. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Your figures here show cases relieved ?—Only, cases relieved. r 20775. (Major Evans-Gordon.) This second; table - means foreigners relieved, with their classification, ac- cording, to .country ?—Yes,, only relieved. , Thes first t4ble says, Jewish. foreigners relieved, in Manchester ; cases." '' . - 20776. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The second table is an amplification of that first table ?—Yes. - 20777. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You split them ud into countries ?-^Yes. 20778'. '(Sir'-Kenelm Digby.) Is there anything you wish to say about that ?—I am prepared to answer anv questions with regard to my figures, but I have no special observations to make. 20779. They speak for themselvesi?—Yes. 20780. Your next table is native relieved cases?— Yes, I thought I would show those. 20781. Does that mean native Jews?—Yes, born in this Country. 20782. The numbers are very much smaller ?—Very much. They aire hardly perceptible. I should also like to .say this, that my experience of the Manchester Jews—and it is one extending over 32 years—is that we^are an industrial-population, .arid-not a huckstering population. "With the exception perhaps of tailors the whole of the Jewish population who* are engaged as a^tizans work inv factOfries,. I myself know of numbers of instances in which , aliens who came to Manchester W^hrtu,othing. ,at~all, or with very little, are now the owners of large factories, employing not -alone Jewish labour,,but also employing to a very great extent Chris- tian labour, and in.these factories, as a rule, the Jewish ar^isians: work. I etxcludey of course, the1 tailors who- to some , extent work , at hoon©.? Th e cap-maker s work in fa<$ories^ sthe sjoiners anTd cabinet-makers' work in fac- tQadeSjrand the boot and shoe makers and waterproofers aj^Qi-; &$iinlk tho!^ are theprincipal trades in which cQnicerned. *20783?'^Chairman.) Do you know anything about the sub-division of labour in these trades?—I cannot say anything 'about that. ' I only speak about, the actual relief and the figures. 20784. (Sir Kenelm, Digby.) Then, all these figures of yours, I^nderptand, refer to those who have received reliefp^Qnfcy th^o wko^have receive^ relief, §0785. (Mr. Vallanee.) The methods adopted by your those adopted by the London J^ish Board of Guardians ?—Practically so. ^.20786* And your mode of relief does not correspond with, fthe Poor Law relief ?—Not at all. visi44. 20787. Inasmuch as your work is largely preventive of pauperism by means of loans 1—One of the means. 20788. And setting up in business 1—Yes. 20789. And apprenticeships, and so forth ?—We have no apprenticeship department. We find that the Man- chester Jew has sufficient means at his disposal and suf- ficient outlet for placing out hisi children without de- voting a large portion of Jewish money in the way of premiums. We had a short experience in that matter, and we found we practically were doing no good at all. In many instances there was collusion between the master and the father for division of thy premium, and fiiiding ultimately that the parents could place their boys without the assistance of the Board of Guardians, we have dropped that department, and have practically done very little in that altogether. We are siiiiply' a relief society, and the Society are assisting people with loans without interest; we have a medical department as well. ' ' 20790. Then, apart from the work of your Board of Guardians J is there any special organisation for pro- moting apprenticeships ?—None at all. '20791, You know there is such a society in London? •—-Yes> a large one. I am acquainted with the London work. 20792. Have ytiu ■ any figures which you can submit to the Commission to show the extent to which the Jewish aliens resort to the Poor Law in Manchester ?— I will take a typical week, if you will allow me—that is, the Passover week, The Jewish Board of Guardians at Passover is privileged to send both to the workhouses and hospitals, and the prisonsi Passover cakes for in- mates. During the last Passover week there were in tlie Prestwich Board of Guardians' workhouse six Jewish inmates, and in the Manchester Workhouse there were eight. Not one of these was able-bodied, and I should like to say that of the 14—that is, the six and the eight—we subsequently found that two were registered on the books as Jews, and they were not Jews at all, so that that would reduce it by two. There was something wrong about the registration. 20793. Have you any figures with reference to the Poor Law infirmary or hospital ?—Only that figure. I take that as a typical week. 20794. Are you referring to the workhouses or in- firmaries?—The workhouses. 20795. Have you not the number of the Jewish sick, in the Poor Law infirmary ?—You may take the inmates, to be four to five on an average^, right the way through, the year. 20796. Then when you speak of eight in one work- house and six in another belonging to the Jewish per- suasion, are there not included in these any deserted families ?—No, there were not—not at that time. Our practice is to send a deserted woman into the workhouse to get a warrant, and as soon as we have the consent of the Guardians to the issue' of the warrant, the/woman comes out. We do not trouble the work- house for ' 'anything more than the small relief during; the time intervening between her going into the work- house and the issue of the warrant. Once that is effected, we take the responsibility of the relief entirely off their hands. 20797.; You. use the machinery of the Poor Law to enable you to proceed against the husband ?—Yes. 20798. Are there many cases of wife desertion among Jews P—There are at the present moment about 16; but much depends on how you look at the term , " deser- tion." In most instances these poor women are wives of men who have gone before them to other countries, and who in the course of time will provide a home for them, and they will either send tickets or the wives will have the assistance of the Board of Guardians to join their husbands. There are occasionally real cases of desertion, but they are so few that they are not worth speaking about. 20799. You wer6 going to say something about the prisons ?—During the Passover week, in the Manchester Prison, which is a; very large prison—I do not know how much accommodation there is,- but I should think for nearly 2,000—there were three Jews. The governor sent on to us for a supply of Passiover ciakes, and when the Passover was over he asked me to take the surplus away, because he had not enough prisoners for it to go round. 5 c 2 Mr. J. A. iiaacs.* 4 May 1903.756 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALfEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. L A. Isaacs. May 1903. 20800. Do you have any cases of repatriation—of sending people back to other countries ?—Oh, yes ; but there we are joined by the Society for the Relief of Distressed Foreigners. They usually pay the fare back from Hull to Hamburg, and we find the fare from Man- chester to Hull. 20801. Can you tell us a typical case of repatriation? How would you get the men to go back again?—In most instances they apply to us. 20802. {Chairman.) Then it is not against their will? —No ; we never use force. 20803. Do vou have any difficulty in getting them taken back through foreign ports?—No, 1 think not; but we make it a condition that they must find sufficient money for travelling beyond the port of Hamburg- We do not find them that at all. Our six months law operates in these cases also. We should oot send a man or a woman back who had been in Manchester under six months. We do not want to encourage thisi going back- wards and forwards at the cost of public money. 20804. (Mr. Vallance.) Are these people whom you repatriate people who ought never to have come into this country ?—I daresay the number include® a proportion of people—perhaps aged people—who should not have come here, or perhaps aged people whose children may have gone further on, and they wish to return home. 20805. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Can you give us any idea of what the number of these cases is ?'—I should not like to speak positively, but, approximately, I should think about one a week would amply cover the number. 20806. (Mr. Vallance) One individual or one family? —It might be an individual, or it might be a family. 20807. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What evidence do you get about residing for six months, and whether they have been here six months or not? How do you ascer- tain that ?—We have a voluntary committee, who go and investigate cases. 20808. And find out whether they have been here longer or not?—Yes ; and I assist in that myself. 20809. Are there any other Jewish charities in Man- chester who take cognisance of these people ?—No ; the Jewish Boaxd of Guardians is the principal charity of the town. There may be two or three small sectional societies, like the Roumanian Society. 20810. Is there anything corresponding to the Russo- Jewish Committee there?—Nothing at all. 20811. So these six months' people come to you, . mainly ?—They would have to come to us or go to their -compatriots. 20812. And get relief from their private friends, and so on ?—Yes. 20813. What are the funds of the Board of Guardians in Manchester; are they large, or what?—No ; I am sorry to say they are very small. Do you mean the amount distributed in relief ? 20814. What is your annual revenue?—I have a report with me, but not the latest report. Our sub- scriptions would be about £850, and that is practically all we have to depend upon. We have to get the re- mainder by an annual appeal, or in some other way. 20815. How much do you spend in the year?—We spend about £1,350. 20816. You say that 266 foreigners apply- Are these the only people who apply to you, or may there be others besides those?—There may be. 20817. You are only cognisant of people who come before you?—Exactly. 20818. The numbers who come under six months, and apply, come from other towns, you say, chiefly ?— Eighty per cent. I went through my figures carefully. 20819. That points, as far as Manchester is con- cerned, to a wandering poor population, rather, does it not?—It would point to a wandering poor population up to a certain point. These people would ultimately get a settlement somewhere. 20820. They are en route when you come across them ? —Certainly. 20821. You spoke, too>, about the foreigners that you have known in your experience who have been very suc- cessful, and have got large factories ?—Yes- 20822. Are there many failures to balance that?— I suppose in every commercial centre there must be failures. 20823. You would not say they were all successful people?—I should be sorry to say tb vt. 20824. Do you have much bankruptcy in Manchester ? —I could not tell you that. 20825. You do not know anything about that?—I know nothing a>t all about that. 20826. With regard to the relief of the Board of Guardians, other than the Jewish Board of Guardians, do they apply largely for medical relief to the English Board of Guardians ?—We have our own medical officer. 20827. They give medical relief as well?1—We give medical relief. 20828. Xs there any Jewish hospital in Manchester? —No ; hut there will be soon, I think- 20829. You agree "with the figures of the Jewish foreign population two years ago ? The total is 7,138 ?— I should imagine that is right. 20830. Has it increased much since then?—I think there is only the normal increase. 20831. And is it increasing?—There is the natural increase, I should think, but it is only normal'. 20832. How many of these aliens—what we call new arrivals—'arrive in Manchester, on an average, in a year; can you form an estimate of that?—I can only give you the figures of the people who come to us. 20833. You would not have knowledge of others who come?—No; but the probability would be that every destitute Jew would come' to the principal Jewish charity of the town if he was in need. 20834. Do you know whether many foreign and Jewish lunatics become chargeable on the rates?1 Have you any statistics of them. I have not any statistics. I know there is a number of Jewish inmates in the local asylum. 20835- You have not any figures ?—No ; I have not any figures. 20836. With regard to repatriation, I understand there is a special organisation that takes charge of that ? —The Society for the Relief of Distressed Foreigners; that is a society which helps without regard to creed, and which attends to the wants of foreigners. 20857. Are the Jews represented in that society ?—■ Not at all. There is simply an understanding with them in the event of their granting a passage back, which they usually do, or at our recommendation. 20838. You recommend to them?—We recommend to them, and if they agree to grant a return passage from Hull to Hamburg, we assist by finding the fare from Manchester to Hull. 20839. That is as much as you do?1—That is all we do. 20840. I have asked you .about that because them is a misapprehension on that point in Hamburg ?—That is all we do. 20841. Do you happen to know Mr- Lasker in Ham- burg, who has taken a great interest in this ?—No.; I have no communication with the Continent at all. 20842. He is a member of the society—in fact, th« manager of the society—for taking charge of the destitute and poor Jewsi?—Yes. 20845. The difference between Manchester and London with regard to repatriation seems to be this: that, whereas the London Jewisih Board of Guardian# pays them sufficient money to take them back to- their homes beyond Hamburg, or authorises their agent, Mr. Sampson, there to give them that money, the people coming from Manchester and Hull are not in that position, but they are only paid for as far as Hamburg ?— There is this difference : that before we would recommend anyone to the Distressed Foreign Society for the return passage we should satisfy ourselves that the people had sufficient money given to them by their friends (not by a charity) to go beyond Hamburg. In fact, the letter of recommendation to the German iSociety (as we call it in short) states that the people have sufficient money to go beyond Hamburg ; otherwise the ticket would not be granted. 20844. I only mention it to you because my inquiries there resulted in this: that there were complaints made in Hamburg about Manchester and Hull ?—I should be very glad to hear those complaints. 20845. They said: ''Whereas we can manage them quite well from London, we have a difficulty with those coming from Manchester and Hull to send them on " ?—» How is it no representation has been made to us or to the other society if that be the case, because we should verv soon step any dissatisfaction. But I understood itMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 757 was tne practice of the London Board also to insist upon the applicant having sufficient money- 20846. I think they do. I am not talking now of how the person obtains the money, but the fact is that he has the money, or that Mr. Sampson is able to give him the money to send him on, and they have now an organised system, so as to pass them on to their homes. You say the number you would repatriate would not amount to more than one a. week ?—You may take that -as a maximum. 20847. One case?—Yes. 20848. How many would that mean? Have you the "figures of that?—No; they would be mostly single people. 20849. (Chairman.) T>o you find the presence of these Russians and Poles and Germans in Manchester oc- casions any inconvenience to the other portion of the Mr, /. A, population?—I think not. Isaacs* 20850. Have they displaced any trades ?—I think 4 May 190& not. I think they have created trades. 20851. In what way?—The very trades that I men- tioned before. The water-proofing trade, the cap- making trade, and the cabinet-making trade are very large industries in Manchester. These trades were non-existent, if I go back 30 years. 20852. And now, I suppose, the British workman is * employed in them, as well as the foreigner ?—I should think 50 per cent, of British workpeople are employed in these factories. 20853. Do you know anything about the sub-division of labour at all ?—No, I do not. Mr. Julius Pinto, called; and Examined. 20854. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you reside at 251, Renfrew Street, Glasgow ?—Yes. 20855. You are a native of Holland?—Yes. 20856. You have resided in Glasgow 35 years ?—Yes. 20857. You have taken an active interest in Jewish •communal affairs, and held various responsible hono- rary offices?—'Yes, I am Treasurer of one of the Con- gregations at the present time. 20858. How far is the question of the immigration of Jews into Glasgow an important one ?—It has never assumed any serious dimensions in Glasgow up to the present time. 20859. Has it increased in the last 20 or 30 years ?— Yes., but not out of proportion to the rate of increase of the general population. The general population of Glasgow, as at the Census of 1871, was 490,442, and at the Census of 1901, 760,423, showing an increase in round figures of 270,000 in 30 years. The total Jewish population of Glasgow is approximately esti- mated at about 6,000, of whom, roughly speaking, about 4,000 reside in the Gorbals district on the south .-side of the river. 20860. You have not the figures to show the increase ? —We have not the total number of Jews, but the total number of foreigners in Scotland at the last Census was 22,627, of whom 14,448 were males and 8,179 were females. 20861. (Chairman.) In Glasgow there were 6,778 for- eigners?—Yes. The proportion of nationalities works out in this way, that the Russian nationality stands to the fore with 10,373. 20862. (Chairman.) That is all Scotland?—Yes. Italians follow next with a total of 4,051, and Germans with a total of 3,232. 20863. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The Italians come to the "big towns—Glasgow, and so on ?—Yes, there is a very large proportion of them in Glasgow. 20864. (Chairman.) What do they do there?—They are ice-cream vendors, particularly. 20865. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do they come for the summer and go away again ?—A number of them remain permanently. But you will find Italians now in all the provincial towns in Scotland. 20866. (Chairman.) Are they all ice-cream vendors? —Yes, my Lord. 20867. Do_ they go on during the winter?—No, they open shops in the winter time. 20868. And do they sell ice-cream during the winter? —Yes, ice-creams and Italian drinks. 20869. Is it a national characteristic of Scotchmen to eat ice creams ?—There is nothing else to be got on Sunday, so they resort to ice-creams. 20870. Is there any liqueur mixed with these ice- creams?—Liqueurs are manufactured also by these Italians. 20871. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What have you to say about the sanitary condition of Glasgow?—Overcrowd- ing among the foreign Jews does not exist in Glasgow. The statistics of the sanitary authorities prove that during the past five years not more than six prosecu- tions-—not one of them of a serious nature—for over- crowding among Jews have taken place. During the last 12 months only, one charge for overcrowding was preferred against a Jew, and in only three cases during Mr. J. Pinto. the same period have the inspectors had occasion to —- warn two householders for having had one adult in excess of the numJber allowed. 20872. I do not know that the numlber of prosecutions would be a very conclusive test. Do you say that over- crowding, as a matter of fact, does not exist ?—It is so. I have made strict investigation on that matter. As a matter of fact, Jews occupy only very small houses. 20873. Have you the system of'large block buildings 1 —Not much. I ha-ve hero the statistics, if you desire to see them, compiled by the sanitary inspector, show- ing the number of single-roomed houses and two-roomed houses and kitchens, and the number occupied by Jew& also. 20874. You say there is generally not overcrowding ? —That is so. 20875. Then as to the cleanliness of the Jew, what have you to say?—I was going to say rents have not in the remotest, degree been affected by the presence of foreign Jews, and what is known in London as " key money," does not obtain in Glasgow. 20876. I see there is nothing like the same pressure in Glasgow among foreigners ?—There is a housing pro- blem there as well as here, andj a very serious one, but it has not been in the least affected by the pre- sence of foreign Jews. Building is going on very rapidly, and Glasgow is extending and increasing generally. Then, as to the cleanliness, I am autho- rised by the chief sanitary inspector to say that the houses of the foreign Jews compare favourably, as re- gards cleanliness, with those of the class among whom they reside, and it is pointed out by one of the in- spectors that he invariably found their bed clothing much cleaner than that of their surrounding neigh- bours. 20877. Have these Jews who have come in been in the country long?—Very few cases indeed come direct to Glasgow, because, being situated on the West Coast, it is not so get-at-able. 20878. Therefore, you have not to deal with tfte freshly-imported Jew in Glasgow so much?—Not so much. They generally have been living in London, or have been in some town in England before they come to us. 20879. Now, will you go on with what you were say- ing about their cleanliness ?—I was going to point to the fact, as almost conclusive proof of their condition, that during the recent outbreak of bubonic plague and small-pox which prevailed in Glasgow, and which broke out in the very midst of the Jewish locality, that is, the locality where the foreign Jews reside, they enjoyed perfect immunity from either disease—not a single case being recorded against any Jew—not even a sus- pected case. 20880. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Was there bubonic plague in Glasgow?—Yes, two years ago. 20881. Was it bad?—Not very bad. We had about eight cases, and a number of suspected cases. 20882. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You had a good deal of small-pox ?—Yes. 20883. I suppose these people are well vaccinated? —Yes. The Jewish community take particular care of that. The Jewish poor were re-vaccinated. 20884. Now as to their education?—As I say, Jews'758 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. J. Pinto, have always been characteristic for a strong desire to give' their children the" ben'^fit: o!f; 'a:; good, solideduea- tion, and that prevails in Glasgow,: equally a-s much ! fc.yx \rrJ-'" *a^itf.4oes in London, Manchester, Liverpool, Birming- ...... ham, and in all cities where .Jews/congregate, in any appreciable number. I have a letter here dealing with thisj subj ect. "• - • ; ' ''Evans-fxorilon.^.With. regard to this letter, it is;a long letter, and it 'is npt^ perhaps, desirable to have it upon our notes. (Witness.) It is from the headmaster of the Gorbals Board School. '20885. . ($ir ' K&tidm JDigby.) . May we take it gener- ally ? We have had a great deal of evidence to the effect that the Jewish children in London are exceed- ingly bright and- clever and quick, and* this letter seems to say the same state of things prevails in Glasgow ?— Exactly so. 20886. (Chairman.) As far as your observation, goes., j the information you have received on that point is cor- rect?—-Yes, my Lord. "20887. Whom have you received tKe information from ? ^r* Alexander Cameron, the head master of the Gorbails Board School/ the district in which the Jews live. .:-■■■■■ j— '(Sir Kenehn iJigljy.) We 'have liad a. great deal of evidence of' that, and it is not disputed by any- body?—nHe particularly"emphasised"Ifie fact that, in, addition to their receptiveness, ;tliey are possessed of polite manners, and he refers to their good conduct in the schools as well. He particularly emphasises that point. -v ' • • ' r - 20889. The Jews have liad a> very good character here? Y&s. " Then,; as regards the adult evening classes, the parent portion of the male and female adults take a great interest in the classes that have been formed under the auspices of the local Literary Society in Glasgow. They availed themselves of the facilities which are a#orded to tiiem of acquiring the knowledge of the language, ; Last year there, was an attendance at these • clashes. ,of 181, as -against -171; the\ previous year. I; •• may ,;sa.y that these classas' are entirely supported by the Jewish Literary Society of Glasgow, with a slight sub- sidy from the London Busso-J ewish Committee, and the masters speak very highly of the progress* they have made*. 1/ endeavoured to procure some specimens, of the caligraphiy to show to the Commission..... Mi;. ,'N. B. Joseph, who has given evidence here })efpre the Commis- sion] is the President of the Rus&o-Jewish 'Committee, aild "M hscs the specimens in his possession, so I could not get them. •20890. Hhey1 miake great progress?—Yes, They acquire a thorough knowledge of the English language in a very short time. We have cases in which young men -have joined these classes who were' scarcely able to read a single word of English, and who now hold responsible honorary positions in the community, secre- taries, etc., with a great amount of credit to them- selves. Then, as to naturalisation!. The foreign Jews aire very anxious and very eager to show their patriotism and loyalty by becoming naturalised British subjects, notwithstanding the almost prohibitive Government fee for •naturalisation. 20891. Is £5 too much ?—£5 is too much. It used to , be a guinea under the Gladstone Administration at one time; and' I know I availed myself of it at the time. That was a number of years ago, and I feel certain if the fee was reduced to one guinea a much larger number of aliens would avail themselves of it- I consider the present process is altogether too cumbrous, and should be very much modified and simplified. 2089£.:HoW,iis it too: cumbrous ?^-It should not be necessary'for aliens in every case to apply to the Home Secretary for naturalisation .papers direct, but applica- tion should be made locally. 20893. "There* is no difficulty in getting the papers ?— But foreigners are not aware of the method that is required. 20894. I suppose there are a number of societies which exist?—In order to facilitate this matter, societies have been formed in most of the large cities-—and Glasgow has, one, too—by means of which, by weekly or monthly payments, they caitl, if successful in the'ballot, become naturalised with the assistance of a professional gentle- man ; kild they do avail themselves of these facilities to a very great- extent. Also, they have shown their loyalty and patriotism' by joining the various Volunteer corps in the city of Glasgow, and quite a large number of them went to the front in connection5with the last South African War, arid- they seemed to be very highly spoken of by their respective commanders for their* effi- ciency and good conduct. I should like to say, particu- larly with regard to the charge made against the Jews? for low living, that those who make this charge against the foreign Jew can only have a very superficial know- ledge of them, because, as a matter of fact, the, Jew, foreigner or British, likes to live well, feed well, and dress well. I have only to compare th^ appear- ance of the members of the J ewish congrega- tions composed of working men and petty trades- men leaving a synagogue on one of their festivals; with the same class of people leaving a church service, say, on a Sunday; and, judging from appear- ances,1 this charge would be found baseless. We have the«statistics af the Board of Schechita—that is, thek Board which concerns itself with the slaughtering of animals according to Jewish rites in Glasgow. We- have 14 Jewish butchers and poulterers in Glasgow, and the number of poultry killed for consumption among; the South Side Jews in the year ending .May 31st? 1902, Was, in round figures, 39,000, and the number of kosher animals slaughtered during the same period by Jewish officials, and sold by Jewish butchers, were 1,38& bullocks, 200 calves, and 400 sheep. . The income de- rived from the poultry tax was £158 5s. 9d., and from the butcher tax £488 16s. 6d. 20895r ,What doiyou/mean by the poultry tax and ther buiciier tax ?—In order to ret and tne congregation; tor the salaries of the officials, we have to ma&e the slight, charge of Id. per fowl?: Tnen there is the point ot the. absence of serious crime among the foreign Jews. I. have the statistics here to prove th<*t, which statistics, were supplied by the governor of the Duke Street Prison,, and they go to show that from the 1st June, 1899, to 31st May, 1902—a period of three years—the number of prisoners of the Jewish persuasion admitted was 18,, of whom three were liberated at court and on bail, two were deserters and were taken back to their regiments, and the remaining 13 received sentences from six days to (in two cases) six months. The number of prisoners of the Jewish persuasion admitted in the Glasgow Barlinnie Prison during the same period were? 24. Particulars as to the nature of the offences, of these prisoners or their term of imprison- ment were not procurable, the Secretary for . Scot- land, having declined to furnish details. There had, been no Jewish female prisoners during that period in either prison. The figures prove that during these- three years there had been an average of 12 Jewish prisoners per year, natives and foreigners combined- Here are the figures from the governor of the prison,, and this letter is from the Secretary for Scot- land. The Superintendent of the Southern Police (the district in which the foreign Jews reside) authorises me to state that their general conduct com- pares favourably with that of the general population; that, as a class, they are law-abiding ; that they ares not addicted to drunkenness or immorality, their worst fault being a predisposition, to quarrelsomeness among themselves. 20896. Is there much gambling among them 1—Cer- tainly, gambling does prevail, unfortunately, to a cer- tain extent,' but I would not say there was much. They have not the means to gamble very much in Glasgow. Then, with regard to the occupations of the foreign Jews. The charge that aliens have displaced native labour^or that, by accepting lower wages and working longer hours, have injuriously affected native labour cannot be borne out- by facts, so far, at any rate, as it applies to Glasgow. The number of foreign Jews en- gaged in the staple industries of the country, such as milling, the iron trades, sMp^ilding,'.. engineering, agriculture, the textile * industries, house-building,, shipping, and the hundred and one allied trades, is so smairthait they need not be taken into serious con- sideration. Those that are employed in handicrafts. are almost exclusively confined to either the tailoring, boo+- ruakihg, cabinet-making, or cigarette-making, every one Of which may be considered the creation of Jewish brains, or has been developed largely by Jews. As a merchant tailor of 25. years' standing, I venture to think that I can speak with some degree of authority on the rise and development, of the ready-made and cheap tailoring branches of the trade. These are, and always have been, principally, though no longer exclusively, in th^ hands of the Jews. It is just about 30 years ago since Messrs. Arthur and Co. imported from LondonMINUSES 759 the first batch, of- Jewish tailors into Glasgow. The ready-made closing trade in. general, and of Glasgow in particular, may bp stated to have been till then in its infancy. Prior to this period the frugal, careful working ..man had either to be satisfied with a new suit of clothes once in 10 years—often not even then—or had to resort to a second-hand market, or, as a last resource, had to -dress himself -and boys in fustians and corduroys. The poorer classes or the less thrifty working man had to> be content with the rags which his more careful fellow- wOrkman cast off. Thanks to the sub-division of labour in the production of clothing introduced' by Jewish skill and enterprise, all this has now been changed. The trade in second-hand clothing, which latter was often filthy and diseas£-inf ectod, has now almo-st entirely dis- appeared, the fustian and corduroy trade has been re- duced, to a minimum, and every working man with any degree of self-respect is now as well and comfortably -clad as the better middle classes were less than 50 years 'ago. ; 1 These advantages have not been gained at the expense of the native labour, or even at the cost of the sweat of the Jewish trades- ::vma,nj for, concurrently with the development of ir-oi the ready-made trade the wages, as well as the con ditions of labour, have improved among native as well as among Jewish tailors. This condition of affairs is Jbeattributed in t-he case of the Jewst|Q at least two \ €,a;uses--(l) the -better organisation of the workers, and ^2J)hto>$ie ijemand^for competent ^ork^rs exceeding, the supply. The wages which prevailed in Glasgow 30 years ago among Jewish workers, when, as I have already said, the manufacture of ready:^ade'$.a§ 'intro- duced,-were for first-class tailors 35s. to 40s: perweek, female machinists received 8s. to 10s. per week, experi- enced pressers had from 35s. to 40s.^ tailoresses and but- ton-holers 10s. to 12s., and male machinists about 35s. to £2 per week. The hours of labqur varied from 53 to 60 per week, but were never less than 50 hours per week of five days, one hour for dinner, no tea time being allowed. At present time work is abolished, and piece work substituted. I have a list here showing the wages at present paid, which proves an all-round substantial increase. 20897. These are the wages paid at the present time? . —Yes. f The following are the prices : — Tailors' Prices. Third-class ordinary class jacket, shoot- ; ing and morning coats and vests, over- coats (each) - - - - Second-class ditto - ,,,, BestTclass tailor mades, ditto - - Pitting jackets and vests 1 - - - fitting shooting and morning coats Fitting overcoats - . * Pressers' Prices. , Shooting and morning coats, jackets and .,.. v.ests^(each) - .. - : - - -v Overcoats - .Single jackets, shooting and morning coats - - - - but they spend it on themselves?—If it was for mere physical exercise it would be all right, but there is gambling going on to a very large extent. 20919. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is that all you have 10 say ?—I wish to say with regard to the restriction of aliens that I am in favour of excluding the criminal and immoral classes^ and also those who are mentally diseased, provided, of course, that Parliament could suggest an effective scheme by means of which you could sift out these classes from the desirable portion of the immigrants. I should certainly hesitate very strongly about excluding those foreigners who have been the victims of religious persecution in a barbarous country in the East of Europe, because I consider they have not been a menace to the native population, neither are they a source of danger to the State; but I consider on the broad principle that every man who makes two blades of grass grow where formerly there was one is a benefactor to his species, and that particu- larly applies to the foreign Jew who has located himsei f on these hospitable shores. On the other hand, I wish to say this—that the native working man has nothing to dread from the foreign competitor if he would ontf adapt himself to improvements of the trade, and not adhere to his antiquated method of production. If he would discontinue his worship of Bacchus and his cele- bration of St. Mondays and St. Tuesdays, and if he would study the interest of his employer more than ne does that of football and the sporting papers hq would have nothing at all to dread from the foreign competi- tor. That is all I wish to say, my Lord. 20920. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Your population of Jews, I understand, in Glasgow, numbers 6,000?—Ap- proximately. 20921. What number of those are foreigners ?—I have no means of knowing that. 20922. Would they be a large element?—-I should say about 4,000 out of those are foreigners. 20923. What we call the alien immigrant?—Yes. 20924. And the others?—Are native born. 20925. Is that population increasing at all?—It has been increasing, but not beyond the ratio of the natural increase of the general population. 20926. Have you got much inflow of these people, such as we have heard of in Manchester and other places ?—They do not come direct to Glasgow. 20927. They come from other places?—Yes. 20928. Have you any charitable organisations?— Yes. 20929. Have you a Jewish Board of Guardians ?— Oh, yes, and they have distributed a great deal. 20930. I want to know what proportion of the for- eigners have applied for relief among your community ? —OE can give you that. It is summarised in this report that I have before me. The numiber of new cases in 1897 were 120; in 1898, 100; 1899, 108: 1900, 155 : 1901, 160. . 20931. Cases ?—New cases. 20932. What is the total number of, cases ?—In 1897, 310 ; 1898, 376; 1899, 201; 1900, 286 ; 1901, 234. 20933. Cases relieved?—Yes. 20934. The number of individuals is not given?— No. The amount expended on relief in 1898 was £417. 20935. And in 1902 ?—£346 ; so there is a substantial deduction. 20936. That is foreign and English?—Yes. 20937. The. total population in Glasgow two years ago was 760,000 ?—Yes. 20938. Then your total Jewish population is under 1 per cent, of the total ?—That is so. 20939. And the foreign Jewish population is a frac- tion of that 1 per cent. ?—Yes. 20940. So that altogether the question there is ai very, very small one ?—Yes, that is what I said. 20941. And you are not, of course, exposed to any of . the difficulties or evils that we would be in the East End of London, where the foreign population is enor- mously greater proportionately to the total popula- tion?—No. Overcrowding does not exist at all; but,, from what I have read in the evidence, I must confess that if the local authorities were adopting more strin- gent measures to put down overcrowding it could be- put down. 20942. We have gone very largely into that. With regard to the prices that you give, these are all Trade® Union prices, are they not?—Exactly. 20943. Therefore, the industries in which the for- eigners and Jews are engaged in Glasgow are carefully organised industries?—Yes, they are. 20944. Therefore, there are none of the objections of a large outside non-organised body of labour?—No. The Tailors' Union in Glasgow is very strong. 20945. And united?—Very united. The same thing applies to the cigarette industry, and they also have an organisation there. 20946. With regard to the other industries, you say they have not competed much, such as that of mining* You have not many Jewish people engaged in mining, (have you?—None at all Jewish. These are all Roman Catholic Poles. 20947. You say they have not created any severe com- petition ?—None. 20948. The foreigners employed in the mines ?—Yes. 20949. Are you aware that on the 2nd of this month the Scottish Miners' Federation definitely resolved to intervene, and the British Federation will be asked to bring all collieries belonging to Messrs. Russell to a standstill, if the management continue to employ, for- eigners?—Is that so? 20950. I take that from the labour papers ?—If that is the case, I can only characterise it simply as a cry for protection. 20951. You do not consider that the number of for- eigners employed in these mines has any effect on Eng- lish labour?—None whatever. It has not affected the wages in the mining district in the remotest degree. 20952. Surely it takes so much employment up ? If there are two places in a mine, and one of them is occupied by a foreigner, that knocks somebody out, does it not ?—Not necessarily. 20953. Why not necessarily?—Because the demand for either iron or coal may be greater, and the native population m'ay be insufficient to meet that demand. 20954. That may be so, but I am talking of two places in a mine. This has apparently reached such a pitch now, that the men are seeking a general strike in these West of Scotland mines, unless something is done ?—■ That is not because the native population has been dis- placed. 20955. Why should they object?—I t ike it that the foreigner is much more amenable to discipline than what the native labourer is. 20956. You say that your tailors in Glasgow, from your experience, have a strong Union, and dictate their own terms to their employers, and that has a great effect on their wages. Why should not the miner have the same?—But discipline is a different ihum from wages. 20957. Discipline is an essential feature in a Trades Union ?—Undoubtedly. 20958. You cannot complain of it in the one case if you appeal to it in the other?—It is the same thing with foreign seamen. Why do British shipowners pre- fer to employ foreign seamen? They do so, and I can tell you why—because they are much more amenable to discipline than the native. not0959' And they get them oheaper?—Undoubtedly 20960. That has all been threshed out before a Com- mission, and we will not go into it now, but with regard to the mines, considering the action, which apparently you do not know of, which the Trades Union Federation is taking in Scotland, would you modify what you say with regard to the effect or the result of foreign immi- gration on mining as an industry?—I would not—cer- tainly not. 20961. You would still say that need not be taken \MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 761 into consideration ?—If the native miner was able to £toVe that his wages or his employment had been in- juriously affected by the presence of these foreigners, then we might take it into consideration. 20962. That is what they do say?—But they must prove it. As a matter of fact, it is not so. 20963. That remains in their hands to prove, but there is a strong feeling arising—you admit that, I suppose ?—There is a feeling arising, which is of a very selfish nature. 209641 I do not know what it proceeds from, but there it is?—Yes. 20965. (Mr. Vallance.) What is the style or title of your local authority administering sanitary affairs in Glasgow P—The Sanitary Authority. 20066. Is it a municipal council ?—Yes. 20967. You are not a member of that council ?—No. 20968. What is the meaning of " ticketed houses " ? —I will explain that to you as far as I can. 20969. May I put my question a little further : does a ticketed house in Glasgow correspond with a house that is registered in London?—A ticketed house means that there is a certain number of cubic feet space, and it can only be occupied by so many adults. I think it is 400ft. for one adult. 20970. In Glasgow you say that overcrowding, prac- tically, is non-existent?—Among Jews. Among the native population it is very bad, I am sorry to say. 20971. There is considerable overcrowding?— Very much so. A Commission is sitting at the present time. 20972. All you say is that the foreigner is not respon- sible for it?—No. 20973. Do you happen to know what course is Usually adopted with regard to overcrowding? Do you know anything about the procedure?—Yes, they are sum- moned. The occupier is summoned. 20974. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What for?—For over- crowding. A fine is administered ; it is a nominal fine in the first instance. 20975. {Mr. Vallance.) Who is summoned?—The oc- cupier. 20976. Whom do you mean by the occupier—is it the occupier of the tenement, or the person knowingly causing the overcrowding ?—The system of house letting in Glasgow is different to what it is in London. Each house is occupied by the tenant himself. There is a " flat " system. In one flat there may be six sing'e- room houses, and each house is occupied by the tenant himself, and the party causing the offence is summoned. 20977. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The head of the family who actually overcrowds ?—Yes. 20978. (Mr. Vallance,) Are those proceedings taken by the sanitary authority at the instance of the local authority. 7—Yes. 20979. Do you know whether any system is adopted to relieve the difficulty of turning people out of the tenement. Supposing a sanitary inspector finds seven people in a tenement where there ought to be only four, doefc lie take proceedings right aWay, or do the local authorities certify that place and simply prohibit a further increase ?—The place is already certified to accommodate a certain number of people. The ticke^ outride indicates the numiber of people who are allowed to live in that particular house, and, of course, if the number is exceeded them the machinery of the law is put into motion at once. 20980. You will understand the point of my questioner. J. Pinto. when I tell you thait information has 'been given me - that some such arrangement as this is in existence in 4 May 1903. Glasgow; that where a tenement is found to be over- " crowded proceedings are not taken immediately. The names and ages of the persons occupying are registered, and they must not be refilled because this certificate names the people who were there before. Are you aware of any such arrangement ?—No, but what I do know is that when there is an offence committed they are in the first place warned. The inspector visiting the place warns them, and if warning is ineffectual then they are summoned and fined. 20981. Is the local authority very active?—Very active. 20982. But notwithstanding their activity overcrowd- ing prevails to a certain extent in Glasgow?—That is so, in consequence of which the present Commission is sitting to take steps to comibat it. 20983. Can you explain what is meant by front lands and back lands ?—Yes. Take, for instance, a building that is exposed to a street. Then there is a back behind that; at the back of that back court another house has been erected with a number of simall rooms. That is called the back land. 20984. When they speak of front land and back lands they mean houses with a front aspect and houses with a back aspect?—Exactly so. 20985. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do the back aspect houses front on the street ?■—No, they front on the back of the other houses, 20986. The front of the rear houses face the back of the front houses?—Yes. 20987. (Mr. Vallance.) I find from a table I have before me that there are 682 houses on front lands in Glasgow of one apartment, and back lands 2,638. That is only a section of Glasgow?1—Yes. 20988. Take the 682 houses in front lands in apart- ments, the average rent is 9s. 9^d. per month. Does that correspond with your ideas ?—Yes, these statistics are properly reliable. 20989. And two apairftmefnts aiverage 12s. Id. per month with a front aspect?—Yes. 20990. So that they are able to get two apartments at a rent of 3s. a week practically ?-—Yes. 20991. And in. the back lands they get one apartment there at 8s. 4^d. Ta, month ?—Yes. Of course, those are very inferior houses; they are miserable dens and hovels. 20992. One apartment averages 210 cubic feet ?—Yes. 20993. Of course, that is small?—Very small. The light of day hardly penetrates there. 20994. Then there are some very striking figures as to the percentage of church attendance on the part of the occupiers of one apartment. It is 82 per cent. ?— Yes, that is very favourable. 20995. (Chairman.) Is that the Jewish Church?—No, general. 20996. (Mr. Vallance.) The occupiers of two apart- ments are 86 per cent, attending church?—Yes. 20997. If you go to the back lands you get down as low as 59 per cent. ?—Yes, that is a lower stratum of population. 20998. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is that because they have difficulty in getting out of their houses at the back to go to church ?—I do not know that. Mr. David Policoff, called; and Examined. 20999. (Sir Kenelm Digby*) Are you secretary to the Manchester Jewish Tailors', Machinists; and Pressers' Trade Union, of Labour Hall, Bury New Road, Man- chester ?—Yes. 21000. You have held that post for the last four years?—Yes. 21001. But you say your experience dates back to 1888 of the Jewish workpeople, especially in the tailor- ing trade?1—Yes. 21002. Have you yourself worked as a machinist?— Yes, in Leeds. 21003. How long were you there ?—About ten years. 21004. Would you just tell us in your own way what 6144. you wish to bring before the Commission ?—I say the Jewish tailors have not affected the tailoring trade. In fact, they have improved the tailoring trade. 21005. You are speaking now of Manchester?—Man- chester particularly, but I say, speaking generally, it is in the same proportion as in London. We have got a number of tailors from London who have come to work at Manchester, and they tell us the wages they receive in London are practically the same as they get in Manchester, and when, I speiak of Manchester the rate of wages amongst the Jews is pretty general and the system of work is pretty general. 21006. Do you say the wages the Jews receive compare favourably with those of the native workmen?—Yes. 5 D Mr. D. Policoff,162 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : MMti D. Policoff., 4i May 1903. _On the other hand the; native workmen have nothing to complain of against the Jews, because they ha.ve not infringed the native. But still .the Jews can earn in the cheaper trade better wages than the English tailors can, and that is because of their system of«work oif sub-division. They divide their trade and by the system of sub-division they turn out much more; work, in less time, and consequently 'have the benefit of the pay. 21009. They adopt that method much more than the natives ?—Yes, the average of the earnings of the Eng~ lish tailor I should estimate from 6d. to 8d. per hour, whereas the Jew tailor would earn from 8d. to Is. per hour. 21010. He earns more per hour?—Yes. : *21011; Is that because of the quantity of work he turns out ?—-Yes. 21012. Is it all piece work?—No. Tailors in Man- chester and other small places roundabout Manchester work daily. Machinists and pressors work 'by piece work. The button-hole hands and finishers, who are delusively women, work piece work too. 21013. You do not suggest the Jewish worker earns more by time than the English worker %—Yes. I say, the Jewish worker earns more by time than the English worker can earn by piece or by time. The primitive •system of working would not lend itself to the new method of tailoring. The English tailor would probably get for a coat 10s.., and take up two days in. the making of that coat, wheraas the Jewish tailor would combine several coats in place of one coat, and it would compare to .about half the time that the English tailor would require to make that coat. 21014. Would not the coat that the Jewish tailor made be of a somewhat different quality H—It would cer- tainly be smarter, but probably not as strong, not as -well finished. 21015- Not as expensive an article ?—'No. 21016. The English-workman-made garment would be (higher in price ?—Yes. I have a suit on now which is made by an English tailor, and which is made according to .the English Tr^de Union time log. This suit, if made "by a Jewish tailor, would cost considerably less. 21017. {Chairman.) About how much ?—About £1 Itfssy and it would be much Smarter than it is now. T am an expert in tailoring, and I wear this suit myself. I have it'on simply as an example of the tailoring. 21018. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is an English-made suit ?—An English-made suit. I have paid for this suit £3 lOsi. The tailor has received the full price, accord- ing to his Trade Union, and has worked on it two days, and willhave to alter it, probably, in making it up, another two days. I do not know1 whether he will be paid for that, but he will have to give me satisfac- tion. The Jewish tailor would make it in much less time, and it would be much smarter, and it certainly would'cost nie about ^ £1 less. 21019. Would tli&re be5 any difference in material - No, it would not'be a difference in material; it would he a difference in the make. Whereas every stitch is made by hand, the Jew would use the machine. But, apart from the use of the machine alone, he would sub- divide it. The minor work of the coat would be done by cheaper hands, and the major part of the coat would be done by the more skilled hands, and, consequently, the minor part wqiild be cheaper, and both combined would produce a cheaper article altogether. 21020. Qan you tell us, about the effect of Jewish labour on the labour market ?—As far as Manchester is concerned, it is invariably admitted by all concerned that i without the help of Jewish labour the tailoring trade in Manchester: could not be carried on for a single day. ;This|imay ,be proved by the fact that about 150,000 ^arjnentSj istock and orders', are made each week in the Jewish workshops—a fact that could not be performed by any number of English tailors, unless they were will- ikg to learn .arid adopt the Jewish system o'fv working- This, however, can hardly be expected, and the con spicuous absence of the English apprentice makes the decline of the English tailor more certain. I want to explain here that the English apprentice is absolutely dying out. We have no apprentices in Manchester in the tailoring trade. The reason is the intemperate habits of the English tailors. The parents would not give their children, even their own children, the oppor- tunity to learn their trade. 21021. (Chairman.) Do not the Trades Unions object also to apprentices?—At one time there was an objec- tion. They had certain objections to apprentices and as to the number of apprentices allowed to each tailor, but I believe that is gradually dying1 out, and, more than that, the English tailor encourages English girls to come into the tailoring ; whereas at one time he would strike work against the introduction of females,; but now he has no objection to it. He encourages the introduction of girls into the workshops to teach them the tailoring. . They realise the difficulties they are in They begin to realise the English tailor is becoming a thing of the past, almost- 21022. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you say the young men are not taking to it at all 1—No. In the first place, they have no encouragement, and, in the second place, the intemperate habits of the parents would not be en- couraging for them to take up a trade of this) kind, be- cause there are far more congenial employments, such as mechanical engineering. 21023. What is the case with the Jews ? Do they encourage their children ?■—In the case of the Jews, the majority are new tailors, who come from abroad. They are tailors in the proper sense of the term ; they are men who can use the needle, I am not alluding to the pressors and machinists, who learn the trade here, but I am alluding to the tailors, who can use their needle^ and thsse are the men who come from abroad. The children of English tailors do not seem to take up the tailoring. They would sooner take up the machin- ing or pressing, at which they can. earn money almost immediately they enter it, than take up an apprentice- ship of five, six, or seven years before they become practical tailors- Consequently, if we were not ,to have a constant influx of new tailors from abroad we should certainly run short of tailors. As a matter of fact, during the busy season we are short of hands. We cannot find sufficient men to cope with the trade. In the slack season there is only a very small number out of work, and these are commonly termed ''tramps." These men are not reliable men. They come in the busy season, and stay on a certain time i? the trade is very brisk, but they work only for the busy season, and tramp about afterwards in the slack season. They are the least skilled men. 21024. Then what do you say is the state of the trade ? —As far as tailoring is concerned, it is not overflowing. There is a lack of men in the tailoring trade- If the English tailors were content to work all night, the same as they used to do at one time, probably they would earn more, and they would make more work ; but, as a matter of fact, they are prevented by the new regula- tions of the Factories and Workshops Act, and they cannot work such excessive hours as they used to work. 21025.; How do you isay they are prevented %—The shopkeepers do not encourage them to wprk long hours as they used to, They do not want them to burn much gas and be on the premises late hours. These are regu- lations that are practically carried out by the masters themselves. It is not the demand of the workmen so much as it is the free action of the masters themselves. They do not want to keep their workshops open so late, especially when they can get the work done under better conditions. 21026. In that trade are there many persons out of work during the slack time ?—During the slack time these are very few out of work. I cannot say they are constantly out of work- They generally find a job during the week. They perhaps work two or three days: during the week, but the people who arei out of work entirely are the less skilled. During the slack season I have had 20 members out of work. My Union has a membership of 900, which consists of 75 per cent, of the Jewish workmen engaged in the tailoring trade of Manchester. 21027. Do I understand vou that the ^ew workers are recruited from aliens coming in? — Yes. We do not apprentice tailors here. We must import them j?.b-*Y>ad. As a matter of fp^t, it is the case that' the Irish tailor, and even the English tailor, is now importing his last stock from Ireland. 21028. With regard to these alien workmen you im-MINOTES OF: EVIDENCE. 763 port, do they know their business before-they come, or are; they greeners and have to learn ?—'The tailors who eome here know their business. 21029. You are speaking of those who coine to Man-, Chester ?-r-We get the same class of people in Man- chester as you get here in London and elsewhere. 21030. Do you get them first of all when they first come?—Yes, we get them from Hull or Grimsby. ] heard Mr. Isaacs make the remark this morning that he had had very few cases of relief from tailors, because they at once enter into the trade. They come to me first before they go to Mr. Isaacs. 21031. As soon as they arrive?—Yes. 21032. And you find'them work at once?—We try to find them work as soon as possible. 21033. What sort of wages do they work for in the first instance ?—Machinists and pressers, from 8s. to 10s. per day. 21034. Do they get that at once, as soon as they come ?—No. 21035. I mean the man who first comes ?—The man who first comes, if he has served as an under-presser, Will get 10s. the first week, but he is not worth more than that. He has tor start as a learner. Within a month lie will earn as much as a soverign, but in three months or so his wages will come up to 5s, or 6s. a day, or so on. 21036. Do you speak of that as a general thing?— With the exception of the men who are not smart enough to learn a trade. 21037. Would you say that the figures you give re- present what the majority earn F—Yes. These are the wages. The wages of machinists and pcessers, prac- tical men, are from 8s. to 10s. per day. Tailor's : First class men from. 8s. 6d. to 10s. 6d. per day. Tailors: Second class men, from 5s. to 7s. per day. Seamers or second machinists, from 4s. to 6s. 6d. per day. I may pointout that these steamers, or second machinists, are ..tte Those, would enter as, greeners, b^,iffiey do not start at 4s. ; they start at a little less thain that, but it does. not . take them very long. The time is so short to learn a trade, that it. cannot be con- . siderted ktt"all. As soon ashe has Teamed at all, his wages will vary from 4s. to 6s. 6d. per day. The under- presser gets the same as the seamers ; the bul ten- holers and finishers, who are exclusively women, get froih, 4s. to> 6s. per day. The average wage of a Manchester tailor's "operative may be safely estimated . at 7si per day, and his average earnings all the year rdiilnd niay be estimated at 6s. per day, or 36s. per. week.' 21038. Does that cpmplete what you wish to say about wages ?—I have dealt with the matter of the aliens entering the tirade. As to the class of goods, it has been suggested that the goods made by Jews are of a cheap and inferior kind. This can certainly not be said of the: tailoring trade. The very cheapest and commonest class of goods is manufactured by English women in English factories. The- Jews hajve created a trade which stands between the English tailor-made and that of the ready made ; it is as smart as the first, and not much dearer than the other. The Jewish-made garment is the every-day garment worn by English- men who cannot afford to pay the exorbitant price of an English tailor-made garment. It is the class of trade that has put out of existence the "old clo." man, and brought it within the reach of every British workman to be decently clothed. The alien work is emphatically not rubbish. As a result of the Jewish system of work- ing, home work amongst the Jews is almost extinct, fqr it is almost impossible for one man. to wotk by himself and earn anything like a comfortable living. T'He little home work still to be found in Manchester , is done by English tailors and tailoresses, but not by Jews J 21039. You have given us the earnings, but you may j list add thisj that the figures you have given you have taken from wage books ?—Yes; as to the figures I have gi^en, in order to.prove my statement, 'regarding'the wages earned by the Jewish workpeople, I have visited a number of workshops and examined the wage books o^:fee,workpeople; They ateelate tc the--week ending February 27th, 1903, almost the slackest season of the year. 21040. You give the names and the wages, which you Jiave, actually taken from the wage book?—Yes. I 6144. have two wage books here, which, will show that these Mr. Z>„\ figures are correct. Policoff. 21041. I think we may take that from your state- 4 May 190$ ment?—Then I deal, further, with the rainproof " "* trade. Next to the tailoring comes the whole- sale rainproof and ladies' Imperial trade. This trade is a striking example of the inventive , powers of the Jews; both the designing and making of the garment are entirely in Jewish hands. There are now about 20 big factories in Manchestery giving employment to about 1,000 Jewish, workpeople. The rainproof is an ordinary overcoat, made of "proofed" tweed or Venetian cloth. It has displaced the water- proof garment, and became a marketable article some seven or eight years ago. It cannot, however, be classed as ordinary tailoring, because it requires special training, particularly in the machining and finishing. It is now one of the principal industries! of the aliens, and the conditions and wages of the workpeople are almost similar to the conditions and wages of the tailors. One of the biggest manufacturers in Man- chester—the name is mentioned in my statement, and it can bi given privately to the Commission—informs me that up to about five years ago there were only two firms and a,boat 50 workpeople engaged in this trade. It has now grown, to sucih an extent that about 1,000 Jewish workpeople and about 300 English travellers, agents, clerks, etc., find regular employment. The wages are for machinists and pressers from 9s- to lOis. per day; seamers and under-pressers from 4s. to 6s. 6d. per day. There are very few tailors in this trade, but , those who do work in the irade earn from 5s. to 8s. 6d. per day. The hours are from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m., and an hour and a half for meals. 21042- Is that trade principally in the hands o>f aliens ?—Yes. The natives are mostly girls, but not in" the tailoring, or in the pressing. I have also here a list of, the wages. 21043. That bears out what you have given just now $ —Yes.. I can give the names, if necessary. Next to the rainproof, com es the cap-making industry. Gap- making has been, and istill is,ito a certain extent, one of the trades, of the aliens ;, within-the last few years they •have, however, been largely displaced, by English - women, and out of 3,000 cap»makers in Manchester only 25 per cent, are Jews. The principal part of the trade, such as the designing and cutting, is still in the hands of Jews., 21044. That, apparently, is not quite so important for: ..our purpose. That is a trade which has rather ceased to b© ?—Tt' exists to a great extent. 21045- tBut it is not so nluch in the. hands of the aliens ?—No. ..... • ; 21046. Then you might go o.tl to the mantle-making, which is important ?—The mangle-making is purely a German trade, and has* been introduced into this , country by alien Jews. . In this, as well as in the cap. trade, the English girl is gradually stepping in and converting it into 'an English trade. , . - 21047. Your point being that both in mantle-making and cap-making the trade was introduced and fostered by .aliens, and is now becoming a Britishtrade ?—Yes. I wish to prove the Jews have introducSecf certain ideas which have, been turned into [English trades, and they do not keep them to themselves. They gradually spread out, and become English trades, and English people find employment in them. Then with regard to mantle^making, the inventiveness of the Jews plays a> very great; part in it. ' 21043- J011 say the fact, however, remains that the so-called German-made mantle, which is much superior to the English-made, and pays better, is still in the hands of the Jews ?—Yes, the English-made garment is made entirely by machine. The German-made mantle must be made partly by hand. It must be basted, and consequently requires manual labour. It is a much smarter and nicer garment. As I say, the fact remains that the so-called German-made mantle, which is much superior to the English-made, and pays better, is still in the hands _of Jews. Their inventiveness plays a great part in it. The frequent change of fashion afid style requires more skill than the English girl possesses There are now above 500. Jewish workpeople in this trad® in Manchester, whose conditions and wages com- pare favourably with the Jewish tailor. This trade would certainly suffer if the Jews were prevented from coming in. 21049. Now with regard to the Leeds clothing trade, 5 D 2764 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. D 4 May 1903. what have you to say?—I have worked in Leeds, and I should like to say something about Leeds. It was, I believe, 111 1896 that Mr. Sherard, author of " Tho White Slaves of England," visited Leeds, a*nd I was one of those who " mentioned as their weekly earnings s;um:s which they did not obtain in a month." I will now repeat again that my weekly earnings as machinist for the two years preceding Mr. Sherard's visit to Leeds varied from 25s. to £2. It must, however, be borne in mind that the Leeds clothing trade is the cheapest trade in England. I have made coats at 6s- a dozen, and have ecurnud 6s. a day, working from 8 a.m. to 6.30 p.m., even at that class of trade. These coats, as I was afterwards told, were sold to Dr. Jameson in South Africa. 21050. What for ?—For his men. That was a fact that was stated to me. The Leeds Jewish tailors are better paid than the Leeds English cutters and steamers. There are a number of Jewish-trained English machinists who prefer the Jewish workshop to the English clothing factory, because they receive better pay, and do not feel the prison-like factory regulations. Women machinists getting 6s>. a day are quite common in the Jewish workshop®, and they will stick up for their price, too. We struck work for a rise of wages, and these women were with us, and we" did not return to work without them. There are about 2,000 Jews in the trade. They may be classified under five heads—tailors, machinists, pressers, button-hole hands, and feller hands. The last two are exclusively women. Under the head of "machinists," comes the pocket-maker, the lining-maker, the sleeve-maker, *;he closer, and the sleever. The principal and best paid men are the pocket-makers and the sleevers. 21051. Their wages compare fairly with what you have given us ?—They are lower than the charges re- ceived in Manchester, but, considering the trade, we find that tho Leeds men are not so skilled as the Man- chester men. They require less skill. 21052. We will leave that, and take it that they are substantial wages, but somewhat lower than Manches- ter?—-Yes. Then with reference to naturalisation, it has been said by some of the witnesses before this Com mission that the Jews have no desire to< become natural- ised subject®. This is an absolute untruth. Apart from the numerous naturalisation clubs in existence amongst the Jewish working classes, a resolution was sent by the Manchester Jewish Tailors* Union to the Trades Union Congress of last year urging the Congress to approach the Home Secretary with a view of getting the naturalisation fee reduced, so that it may be within the reach of every workman to become natural- ised British subjects. This resolution was passed by Congress, and on the 26th of last month it was placed before the Home Secretary, and dismissed on the ground " that it would tend to increase the number of applicants who could hardly be called desirable." Thus it remains that alien Workpeople who cannot afford to pay £5 will always remain aliens even if they are of a most desirable kind. I wish to point out, although the Home Secretary said he considered it was possible for any workman to spend £5 on naturalisation, I do know from experience that it is hard for him ; he cannot do il». I do not know whether it has any bearing on this in- quiry, but I would certainly say if the fee of naturalisa- tion was to be reduced to one guinea the number of aliens certainly would be reduced at once. ' 21053. You mean there would be a greater number of persons naturalised ?—Yes, and they would certainly become useful citizens and useful suBTects of the coun- try, 21054. You join in the view that the fee ought to be re- duced?—Yes. 21055. What do you say would be the reasonable fee ?—About £1 and a simpler declaration. As far as the declaration for naturalisation is concerned, a simple declaration before a local magistrate ought to be suffi- cient, without having to fill up the necessary forms. 21056. Why do you say that ? What is the difficulty 1 —The average workman—even the British workman who has gone to the Board school—cannot fill up these forms. 21057. Why not?—-I have noticed it in several in- stances. £1058. If he cannot fill up the form, is he fit to be a British subject ?—He is not fit, but the average British workman is the same. , 21059. It is a very simple form, stating how long lie has been in the country, and where he is residing. Do you mean to say that a person not capable of doing that has any claim to be a British subject?—A man may be a very desirable man, even if he does not possess a perfect knowledge of English. 21060. I am not talking of a knowledge of English,, but simply a simple form saying where he was born and the different places at which he resided to make up his five years. Filling up a form of that sort is all he has to do, and to give his references, and the police have to inquire into the respectability of his references. The process is about as simple as you could have. I can understand your objection about the fee, but I do not understand your other objection. 21061. (Ma jot4 Evans-Gordon.) But even with regard to the fee, where a man has been earning, as you say he has been, very high wages, do you think it exorbitant to ask that in five years he should have put by £5 for the priviledge of becoming a British citizen?—I think it is too' much. 21062. Why ?—It is not a thing that a man requires in every-day life. He does noti feel it so much. 21063. If he does not want it, then it makes no difference. (Chairman.) They generally apply through attorneys, do not they ? 21064. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We do not encourage them, because we say it is so simple that they can do it themselves. They do apply through agents, as a rule ?—There are certain naturalisation agents, and these agents charge an excessive price. 21065. There is no earthly' reason why they should not do it themselves?—There is no reason why an Englishman should not possess a better knowledge of English. 21066. I am only saying that I do not think there is any difficulty with regard to the form. I can hardly conceive it being simpler?—Another statement has been made before the Commission that the Jewish trades unions are only organised for temporary strike purposes. This is not true. The proof of the existence tif the Manchester and Leeds Unions, both strong organisations, and the way they carry on their business ought to be sufficient proof to this Commission that they are not formed for temporary strike purposes at all. We have very frequently little disputes be- tween masters and men, and we intervene and try to settle them. We have been/ recognised as a body by the master tailors, and we are frequently consulted by them, and we certainly deal in the same way as the English trades unions do. 21067. (Majot Evans-Gordon.) You say on the first page of your evidence generally that-the condition of these people in Manchester, at all events in the tailor- ing trade, is very good ?—Yes. 21068. And yet you would like to see certain things done by the Government?—Undoubtedly. 21069. You would make overtime illegal ?—Yes. 21070. Is overtime! prevalent?—To a certain extent m everv trade. 21071; You would limit the hours to eight a day? —Yes. 21072. What are the hours of .work now?—From eight to eight, and we allow overtime. According to the rules of our association we allow four hours a week, and this is sometimes exceeded. 21073. You fix a minimum rate of wages ?—Yes. 21074. Why, if you get such tremendous high wages? The minimum rate of wages would tend to reduce the number of women. 21075. You want to keep the women out, do you ?- • les, if possible. 21076. You would make the Factories and Workshops Act apply to all classes of trade?—Yes. 21077. (Chairman.) Would you endeavour to keep the women out except with the object of keeping up the men's wages ?—The women, as a rule, are satisfied with lower wages, and we want to keep up the wages of tho m^n. 21078. That is the whole reason ?—Yes. 21079. For Which the people would have to pay?—■ Certainly. We do not consider for the time the public.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 765 "We consider our own interests. We think the public - ought to be satisfied with the present conditions. They get the things pretty cheap. 21080. You will never succeed in your efforts to keep the women out?—We do not say that we shall, but that is our desire. 21081. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In fact, you want to keep out the competition of people who accept lower wages ?—Yes, we do. 21082. That is precisely the same reason that some people advocate keeping out cheap alien labour ?—The ' question is whether alien labour is cheap-. 21083. It may not be in Manchester^ but you will find it is here. Then you say that the Factory Acts should be extended to all classes of trade to make it impossible for unscrupulous employers to ta\e advan- tage of their workpeople. Do you find manj uiicli em- ployers in Manchester ?—There are some in every trade. 21084. In Manchester?—In Manchester as well as «elsewhere. 21085. You say you have got 900 member®; that is 75 per cent, of the total number of Jewish tailors in Manchester ?—Yes. _21086. What proportion of these are foreigners ?-— Ihe larger proportion of these are foreigners. 21087. There are 25 per cent, outside the Union who have not joined the Union ?—Yes. 21088. Engaged in the tailoring trade ?—Yes. 21089. That would make how many altogether P-— .About 1,200. 21090. That is out of a total foreign population of men, women, and children of about 7,100$—Yes. - J 21091, 1Have y°u ever heard that correspondence, has * been conducted between the Jewish Board of Guardians in London and Manchester with a view to the trans- mission of some of the overflow of foreign population here to Manchester and other towns in the north ?— Yes, I have heard of it. 21092. Ha® anything cocme of those negotiations ?—I do not know much about it. 21093. Do you say there is plenty of room in Man- chester for more?—During the busy season there is plenty of room for more tailors in the Manchester tailoring trade. 21094. All the year round?—Nof in the busy season. 21095. What would you do with them out of the busy season?-—They would certainly spread in the country. They would go to little places where they would find employment. 21096. You would welcome them if they came in the seasonal time, but they would become a burden in the off- season time ?—No, they would go and look for employ- ment somewhere else. 21097. They can do that now ?—Yes. 21098. There is only room for them in the busy time?—They follow the trade. They corn© to Man- chester, and they settle down during the busy season, and in the slack season they follow the trade elsewhere. 21099. It is proved there is room for them, in the busy season, and not so much room for the overplus population in the slack season. Who is to provide for them going aiway ?—>It must be borne in mind this trade principally is a season trade, and they depend on the season. 21100. There is a scarcity of tailors at that time in the season trade, in spite of the people who come in ?— Yes, they must work hard in the busy season in order to save something for the slalck .season, and a good many do so. Mr. D. 4 May 1903, FORTY-FIFTH DAY. Thursday, 7 th May 1903. The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. members present : Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. {in the Chair). j William Vallance, Esq. ' 1 ^ r6Ceived a ™™ication from Lord James stating that he is indisposed and unable Mr. William Edward Hart, called ; and Examined. m2i101; You are the Deputy Town " Clerk of Sheffield ?—I am. 21102. I believe you wish to say something with reference to some evidence which has been given here %_■ I wish to refer more particularly to question 14741 and ' Onwards to 14750 in the evidence given by a witness napaed Murfin. He made certain, what I might almost call reflections, on the Sheffield Corporation which would . give the impression that the Corporation are deceived i ill the matter of their clothing contracts. 21103. Will you read the portion that you complain of I am- sure you will not accentuate any difference more than is necessary ?—Not at all. You will find in the •■first question tm which I have referred; it is stated that formerly practical tailors were employed in this class ; of, work in Sheffield —that is the third class of work the cheapest chm but it is said they number several thousands now. 21117. We shall get that probably more accurately. We have had the figures qf two years ago, but what increase there may have been in the last two years I do not know?-'—The Inspector of Mines will probably be able to give you that information. The coalowners are of opinion that no restriction should be placed upon the employment of Polish workmen. They strongly object to any limitation being put on the number of workers. unless it is clearly shown to be necessary in the interests • of the general community. They do not suggest that it is in the interests of the general community that people decrepit, diseased, useless, or mischievous should be en- couraged or permitted to immigrate into this country, " but their view is that it is in the interests of the com- munity that those who are strong and healthy, and well- -conducted, arid possessing all the qualifications of good workmen should, if they not encouraged to come, at any rate, have no restriction put upon their bringing their : labour to this country. With reference to their physical^ capacity, I am not aware that even those who object to their employment allege that they are unfit for heavy manual labour. .. The experience of the managers of the; mines is that they are just as: capable as any other work-, mien employed side by. side with them. Their conduct on, , the whole, is very good. They are amenable to all . instructions necessary for the maintenance, of the dis- . cipliiie of the mine. I have already spoken about the * numbers. I cannot "give the numbers exactly. I may say that we. think the first employment of Poles was at the iron and steel works about twenty years ago for1 labour on the surface on iaccount of the scarcity of that- class of labour, and they gradually drifted into the- mines. Then the objection that is made that they are , unable to read the special rules, has been met in some • cases in Scotland by having the rules printed in their own- language, but that is not universal. gN 21118. How many mines is that done in?—Messrs* William Baird and Company have perhaps four or fi ve-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 767 mines where they have them printed. I am not aware whether the others who employ the Poles have done the Tsame, but Messrs. Baird were at the expense of trans- 1 ating the rides into; the polish language. Then as to the rate of wages paid, the Poles are paid at the same irate as the British workmen. It is usually a tonnage rate that i$-paid to miners, and the Poles receive the same irate of wages as i the British workmen. 21119. Do you say anything about their output 2—N 1;heir output would be pretty much the same as that of the British workmen, therefore the total sum they receive -would be about the same. Some of the Poles are engaged in the getting of the coal, and others in drawing coals underground, and also in surface labour. Those engaged iih getting coals are under the same regulations as the British workmen, and, among other things, they must Tiave had experience of two years at the face of the coal in the terms of General Rule 39 of the Act of 1887. The rule is that an experienced Pole takes with him an in- experienced Pole and teaches him the duties of hewing ■and general underground work. Then the opinion of the • coalowners is that even where there is no reprint of the special rule, the Poles do not work under the disadvantage of the point of safety fixed, and that is, I think, proved by actual results. The accidents to these Polish- workmen are not greater than the accidents to British workmen. I may say that in June, 1900, we wrote to the then Home Secretary with regard to this point. I have a copy of the letter giving some figures with reference to accidents to British workmen, and accidents to Poles. That was written to Sir Matthew White Ridley, who was Home Secretary at that time. The figures then brought out were that the accidents to workmen per hundred were ■3'85 per cent, of the total number employed, and the accidents to foreigners were 3*97. ' 21120^ That is non-fatal accidents ?—Altogether. 21121. Both fatal and non-fatal 1—Yes. This morning. I received from Scotland a list of the accidents in the same «collieries in 1902. From these figures, it will be seen there were four fatal accidents to British workmen, and none to foreigners. 21122. (Mr. Vallance.) What are the proportions • employed ?—In these colHeries there were 1,794 British - workmen and 450 foreign workmen. •- 21123. (Sir Keneliri Digby.) About one quarter 1—Yes, there were 105 non-fatal accidents to British workmen - and 3i to foreigners. The percentage works out at 6*08 per 100 to the British workmen, and 6'88 to the foreign workmen ; overhead, 6*24 per 100. 21124^ (Major Evans Gordon) Is that in proportion to 1 the numbers employed The numbers employed. There were 1,794 British workmen and 450 Poles in these col^ llieries ,the figures were taken out \ from. 21125. What year was that ?—1902. It is about one- ififth, or 20 per cent. , 21126. (Sir Keiielm Digby.) The inference you draw from that is that there is practically no difference as ^regards safety ?—No difference both with regard to acci- • dents to themselves and accidents to their fellow work- men. , 21127. (Major Evans Gordon.) What , mines are those ■ figures taken from ?—The Bothwell mines in s the Bothwell District, near Glasgow. 2112$. (Sir Kenelm \Digby.) Is that one of the paines where the rules are translated ?—Yes. I wish to state there is no arrangement on the part of the .coalowners for rbntigiiig'these foreign1^to this cbtintry. . f 21129. Where do they come frpiQ -generally . Central Russia. , 21130. But where do they land at the, English ports ? —Leith, I think. 21131. Do you know if there is any large, importation - of foreigners at Leith ?—No, I cannot speak about that. Those who have come here and settled down. write to their friends and bring them over. • ^ 21132. Do you know of any arrangement at all for ^importing these people ■?—No arrangement whatever on the part of the coalowners. The people i who are here write to their friends and bring them over. 21133. Do tliqse who come,; coiaae^ (lo you think, for the -purpose of working in the mines—do they come direct to the mines and ask for employment ?—-Yes, a large number of them ; they would come to their friends. 21134. What happens when they first come ? They would not be employed underground at once, would they ?—They must be under the charge of an experienced workman, and usually if they are working along with their own countrymen they are taken under the charge of an experienced Pole, one who has been here a number of years, because he is not permitted to work by himself. 21135. What sort of work would he be employed in ? —Chiefly drawing and pushing coal. 21136. He would not be hewing for a considerable time ?—No ; not until he has had considerable experi- ence. 21137. You say he is employed in drawing to begin with ?—Yes. 21138. How long is it before he becomes sufficiently skilled to take part in the work on the working face? —Two years under the Mines Act. 21139. Before he can work at the working face ?— By himself. 21140. Do these people live together much and keep to themselves in living (l—They live in the houses provided by the employers ; naturally, they gather together. 21141. They live under control %—Yes, undoubtedly! 21142. As to overcrowding, that would be subject to the regulations of the employers (l—Undoubtedly. I had a letter this morning from the general manager of Messrs. Baird and Co. to say that they are very amenable to all discipline ; in connection with sanitary arrange- ments they are not quite clean at the beginning, but they very soon get into cleanly habits, and from my own observation they are very respectably dressed. 21143. Do they take pains to understand the rules, because the rules are a little complicated ? Do they get to know what regulations they have to work under 1— Yes, after a time. 21144., Are they amenable to discipline ?—Much more so than some of the British workmen. Especially I am told that if they get an order they faithfully carry it out, and you may depend upon their doing it. 21145. As to their sobriety, what do you say ?—As far as we see, they are as sober as the usual miner. I do not know that you can say that they are guilty of excessive drinking or drunkenness, and I think they behave them- selves very well indeed. * 21146. Do they belong to the union 1—Yes, I under- stand they do, and they are very loyal to it, although the union officials do not care for this foreign labour. They naturally object to foreign labour being brought into their district., 21147. We have heard a good deal of it at different ' tipies ?—Yes. 21148. (Mr. Vallance.) May we take it that 20 or 30 years ago there was no alien labour in the mines in Lanark- shire,?—I think so ; I do not think there was any before that date. 21149. Has the introduction of this labour been gradual ?—It has been gradual. 21150. Has it during that period displaced any large amount of English labour ?—I do hot think so. , 21151. May we take it from you that they have merely supplied a want in connection with the mining work 1— That is so, and especially in connection wiijh work about ironworks and steel works. . 21152. At the present moment is there any considerable amount of English labour available while you have these aliens employed ?—No ; I think the employment is very good. Of course, there has been since this year started a little dulness in the coal trade, but I cannot say that the British workman has been displaced on account of these Poles. ' 21153. Then there is a certain amount of displacement 1 —I can scarcely say that there is. 21154. If you have two men before you, the foreigner is likely to be taken on at times in preference to the native worker for the reason that he is regarded as a better workman ?—I should scarcely say so; but our experience is that the foreign workman will work in a Mr. R. Baird. 7 May .1903.768 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ; Mr. place that a British workman would not be willing to work Mi0$rd. in—that is to, say, a place that is, perhaps, unusually wet, v—- or perhaps hard tjo get; but they persist in working, and uaake very good wages^ and will work there when, perhaps, "7*" "" the other wortmen jmight not care about doing so. 21155. What; would be your position as coalowners if these foreigners had not come into the district for work. Would you have been able to cope with your work 2— I think So. 1 can scarcely say that we would have suffered very much if the foreign labour had not come ; but we find them to be very useful indeed in many respects. 21156. But have the English workers reason to com- plain of alien; labour where they already were able to supply sufficient labour themselves 2—I do not think so. 21157. (Major Evans Gordon.) Continuing that question, you say that the native workers have not any reason to complain of the introduction of a considerable quantity of foreign labour 2—I do not think so. 21158. One-quarter or one-fifth in one lot of mines 2— Yes ; this is the particular district in the West of Scotland. 21159. But in that particular district in the West of Scotland, though the men have no reason, as you say, to complain, do they complain 2—The union officials com- plain about the employment of the foreign labour ; I do not know why, but they object to foreign labour, and they would like to see the foreign workman put out of the mines. ,'r 21160. But, as you say these people are gradually Coming in, how was the work conducted before these people arrived. How old is the mining industry in this part of Scotland 2—Fifty or sixty years. 21161. It went on then for 30 years or so without this labour 2—Yes. 21162. What is the necessity for this labour now—the population has increased 2—We do not say that there is any special necessity for the labour ; but they have been found very useful in many respects. 21163. In fact, they suit the coalowners 2—Yes, they writ them. 21164. They are more amenable, and give less trouble than the Englishmen 2—That is so. 21165. Did not this .influx of foreign labour into th^ mines come about after or at the time of the strike there 2 —I do not think so. 21166. We have had evidence to say that it did, and that it was at that time that a certain gentleman in Glasgow began getting these people over, and since then it has spread. There is ill feeling, you say 2—I do not know that there is ill feeling. There is a feeling. The miners' officials would like to see this foreign labour put out of the mines for reasons of their own, I daresay. 21167. Do you say the feeling is good or the feeling is bad 2—I do not know that it is very accentuated or very strong. 21168. Has your attention been called to this statement which appeared in the " Labour Leader " on the 2nd of this month : " The question of the employment of Polish workmen in West of Scotland mines is now beginning to assume a very serious aspect. At Tannochside Colliery a large number of them are being employed in one of the seams at 5d. per ton, or about Is. a day less than the rate paid to British miners. The Scottish Miners' Federation have how definitely resolved to intervene, and the British Federation will be asked to assist in bringing all the collieries belonging to Mr. Archibald Russell to a standstill if the management continues to employ foreigners at lower rates. The workmen employed in these collieries number 4-000, so that the struggle, if entered upon, will be a serious one." It appears from that that the feeling is becoming stronger on this point of the employment of foreign labour 2—This is a question of rates, chiefly. 21169. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are those Scotch collieries T —The Tannochside side, it is in the Uddingston district. 21170. Is that in Lanarkshire?—Yes. 21171. (Major Evans Gordon.) What I want to get from you is this: is there or is there not a scarcity of native labour in the mines in Scotland 2—Not at the present moment. 21172. With regard to the language question, these- people arrive from Poland direct, not knowing a word of" English 2—A good many of them. 21173. All of them who arrive direct 2—I presume so. 21174. How are they dealt with then. How are the regulations and so on communicated to them 2—They- are put under the charge of an experienced miner. 21175. Who can speak a little English 2—Yes. 21176. You are dependent on the communication of " the mines' regulations through a third party 2—Yes. 21177. Through an interpreter 2—Yes, who is working along with them. 21178. Is there not a regulation which provides that the man presenting himself at work at a mine has to have a certificate of efficiency that he has worked two years - below ground 2—That is where he has to work by himselF for hewing at the working face. 21179. But if he is not working by himself he goes below ground 2—Yes. 21180. Without a certificate 2—Yes. 21181. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You said these men wert employed at drawing coal, at first ?—Yes. 21182. (Major Evans Gordon.) Have there been strikes - in that neighbourhood lately 2—Not lately. 21183. When was the last strike 2—The last strike of any importance was, I think, in 1894. 21184. Were there foreigners employed then 2—Yes,. there were some. 21185. Nine years ago 2—Yes. 21186. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to the scarcity of labour, I suppose that is really a question as to the - state of trade, is it not 2 When trade is brisk there is * no such thing as an overabundance of labour?—No. Of course, we have had some brisk years lately, and there - has been employment for all. 21187. (Mr. Vallance.) May I put my question in another form. If there are 450 aliens employed, are there at the present moment 450 native workers unemployed and waiting to be taken on 2—No. 21188. (Sir Kenelm Digby) How many days are you - working now in a week 2—In Lanarkshire five. 21189. That is good, I suppose 2—Yes ; of course, that • is by arrangement with the miners. They will not work six. 21190. They never do work six ?—Not just now, and - have not done for some years. 21191. Five days a week is pretty full work, is it not ? —Yes; in Fifeshire and Ayrshire they will work eleven and twelve days a fortnight, 21192. (Lord Rothschild.) Do you know the nationality of all these aliens ?—They are Russians and Poles, 1 think. 21193. Are there many of them Jews, or are there very few of them ?—I do not know that they are Jews. I could scarcely say they are Jews. 21194. (Major Evans Gordon.) They are mostly Catholic • Poles, are they not ?—Yes, I think so. Mr. James Gilmour, called ; and Examined. Mr. J. Gilmoitr. 21195. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you superintendent of the B. Division of the Manchester City Police ?—I am. 21196. You were sanitary inspector in the Jewish quarter of the City of Manchester for five years, from 1886 to 1890 ?—That is so. a 1197. Was that before you joined the police force ?— I left the police. I was made sanitary inspector, and then I returned to the police at the end of the time. 21198. You did not combine the two employments 2— No. 21199. Then you have had experience of the Jews,. both as Sanitary Inspector and as Inspector of Police ?-— Yes. 21200. For two years you have been Superintendent of the " B." Division 2—Yes. 21201. Is that the quarter in which Practically all the - Jews and aliens in Manchester reside ?—That is so. 21202. Now give us your experience of the Jewish* population ; are these newcomers, or are they old inhabi-MiNUTtes OF EVIDENCE 769 t&its 1—Both. They 'are * mixed.{ Some4 have 'been': here 5$ years. ...i ;:;%IZQ§.. Would you draw any distinction betweentfe tiew spmvals, and ,the old inhabitants ?—Yes :] thet blcl' inhabitants,, the educated aliens, are undoubtedly cleaner and more amenable to law and sanitary science than,, the,new ones. Some of them I have known Here for teens •pf years, are very little better for the time thej have been i if^etyn'teir-old hiffiife;:A5': 1"' 1^204. < What have ypu to, say as to the cleanliness , of these. people ?—They are. { very .cjirty;-;—excep.tipnal 1 y. 4irty and sloYenly,in, their habits. Tjjie females ar$,v§ry •sloveiWy' iii their hdu^hoMdujies' &ey 'sMdpih cjean. out their hotises like an English person would, and rfhe irien atfe «very"-slovenly4ik *their dress and their habits indoor^ • ■■ - - - • - f 21205. Are you ^ speaking now of the new people ?•— ;8ome%hb ha^e beeii iiere^f(^ iiiany! yea^rs, to my feiow? ledge. . isnh b m- ^.r. roi*. ;r H 21206V* Yoii say ' thoge Who jha^e ^ been h&rb1 forborne t#he^ at^^ener^hy-better^-^^^y^Of ^thern are better. ? 21207. You are speaking now of the worst type The worst type. ; ' • • • - — ■ •• ",fl2l208. Who are, I suppose, too numeittus for you ?— Y^s,BtliMy'are Very riiririferPtisHn my districts; * *:■. ! ■ * = • 1 21209. You say, they Mv^ very diity habits, of which n+r/\i' j^VA4-n l'lri i Vr/-\t i *» ri 4^ A i4- Q ' ' "\*7" A <~i ' 1'1^-v /I r\n l-\4-A /II r: two^ families or three ' families, and joining together and. paying the rent that one person used to pay. The < landlord undoubtedly raises the rent. If a house is to let there' are generally several after it. - 21215. Do you say the .same; thing that they say in Jbondon, that the more: the overcrowding, the greater tthe increase in rent ?—Yes, the landlord takes advantage of it. lfy^l21iQi/)As vtQrthe: condition; of the houses, what would you say. about that ?^—The ,condition of the houses, is certainly degenerating very much^after^they get hold of tnem and get into a street; they, neglect cleanliness, and they are rough on the property. They knock the plaster :a^bbut, the BMrtirig^boardis, arid they are very rough on. thfe woodwork,? amh damage; the property very much. "They ve»y soori depreciate: the value of the property and the appearance of it. r 21-217C Is this all in, one particular quarter ?—Within an area of about a square mile, perhaps. ^&121& Do they iive together ?■ Do the Jews arid the iria1jiye3rmix together, or is itherd riiore or less a Jewish qukrter -There is a Jewish quarter, practically. The «©M%t&ns ^idfe: |furtfher 'dl$ l$tb' the outskirts, arid there is a general exodus. " f-^219:ii|Ifeis that process been going On ?—It has been ^radriaiy ^oing on, to my knowledge, for 12 or; 15 years.: *'v 21220. Has the Jewish commuriity very much iri,- creased Very much. 21221. Is it increasing I should think it is increasing by over a thousand a year. s " 21222. Do you say that at a guess, or have you any £gures 1—At a guess.. I know they keep spreading out, ^fe^theS(rieighbb#h6bd keeps extending every year, • and they ar# going into the new streets. ' 21223. You say, in your statement, something about ^Omevta®M d^eltog '' bSen^re'CBMly erfec fe'eid in 6144. your district by the Laricashire and Yorkshire Eailwy- Mr. - , Company 1—There are some buildings that the Lancashire' Oilmomr^ and Yorkshire Railway ^Company; were, compelledt to erect <■ on account of others having b^ pUjll^d) t dowAfj y They are- entirely populated* by aliensj and foreign famiiifs^ 21224. Do you know what rerits they pay llier'e ^---1 do not; but they go from 7s. and 8s. to 10s. a week; . : | 21225. How long ago is this^^About three years. •• ^ , 21226. Was the population displaced by the railway works ?—They were not the people who were: displaced.. There were a number of people displaced in the, neighbour- hood close by, but the people who were displaced did not, take, those new Jtiouses • they were taken up directly by the foreign population', 'because' they' were erected right in the midst of the foreign neighbourhood. 4 21227. Do.you know how those rents are fixed % Are they fixed by the scheme' under whibh. the hdus^s were erected, or are they fixed by operi competitibri in the* market They do not fluctuate the sairie as private property ; they belong to the railway company, arid they h^,ve a; fixed rent, and they rie^ei^ raise or- lower ^ it J ^ They stick to one rent. : :' ^ ' -; 21228. That rent is fix&t whM the hbusb is originally built?—Yes. : "• ; 21229. Is that rent lower or higher than the average; r(entIt is about the average. . . ; ! { 21230. About the average of the same class of dwellings in the neighbourhood ?rr-Yes, with the same accommo^ dation. , r 21231. They would be rather better, I suppose 2—They are very .much better buildings; they are more sub- stantial, and the sanitary accommodation is much better,! and more modern. 21282; Do'thec:JfWs Overcrowd more than • the natiyes ill —They do ; that is my experience. - . 21233. How many registered lodging-houses have you iri your district 1^—400'or !500, roughly speaking.; They are not common lodging-houses.; ' : 21234. How' are they , regulated ? Are they under th& Public Health Act 1—They are regulated by the sanitary authority under the Public Health Act. ' 21235; Do you know if there are any bye-laws; picter.:; the Public Health Act ?-^Yes., , * ........ f n !; 21236. Are they enforced by the sanitaryauthority % —Yes. " 21237. Do the bye4aws regulate the number of Hpusejs and the cubic feet space for each person ?—Yes, 300 cubic' feet space is allowed for each adult, and two children ares supposed to be equal to one adult. / 21238. Speaking in your double capacity of sanitary Inspector and Police Inspector, are proceedings fre- quently takeri uridfer the Public Health Act ?—Very fre- qtieritiy. ' When' I wasSanitary Inspector I proceeded myself ve^y fre queritly. ! ; , 21239. With what effect ?—Some of them were fined for . overcrowding, and also for having their houses dirty-- —many of them. I have had 20 cases in one week,* arid more. 21240. What was the result of that ? Did that lessen the overcrowding and the dirt ?—To a small extent; It had an effect for a short time, but they were repeatedly visited again in the night. 21241. Did you inspect at night ?—-Yes. 21242. Do the bye-laws contain a power for inspecting at night ?—Yes, a special Inspector goes with you, and he is sworn in to enter by night. 21243;. And you do inspect between 9 o!clpck in the evening, and 6 in the morning ?—That is so. , 21244. Is it your practice in Manchester to inspect in that way ■?—Yes. • • - 7 - 21245. When you were Sanitary Inspector, did you experience - any difficulty ;at all in taking these pro- ceedings:? Were the.magistrates willing to act, and so j on ?—Ohv; yes. We had very little difficulty when the matter was clearly explained to them. • :2ia46.^Theni^you^fcve'!soMethili^ to-^say wbout Jewish bakehoagef^>?^TliG!i^'?#afsia i.M%@lt(p|rth^m^ri My. district 5 E770 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : iMr. J. Gilmour. 7 May 1903. which I had to visit frequently, and I found them often very, very, dirty. 21247. Are they underground ?—Many of them are underground. They are below the street level, and there is an accumulation of dirt and cinders about the place. The bakers themselves were exceptionally dirty men, and slovenly in their habits. They had a dirty way of making their bread. I have seen them scores of times pulling it out of the oven and throwing it on the floor amongst the cinders at their feet. Many times I have seen them throwing it out of the cellar window which opened on to the public footpath where the people were walking, in order that the bread might cool. This is black bread I refer to. 21248. Do you say there is a difference in these bake- houses between the Jewish and the Christian bake- houses ?—There is. • 21249. Which are the worst 1—The Jewish bakehouses are the worst. There are some of the Christian bake- houses which are not what they should be ; but taking them all together, the Jewish bakehouses are the worst. 21250. You are not Sanitary Inspector now ; but do you know whether anything is being done in Manchester about underground bakehouses ?—Yes. 21251. They will be in an awkward position in a year or two, will they not ?—Yes ; no doubt all these under- ground bakehouses will be condemned. The Medical Officer will bring that about. They must all be above ground. Even now there are no new ones to be opened underground, and the old ones will have to be closed in a short time. 21252. Do you know whether there has been con- siderable improvement in consequence of this hanging over them 1—Yes, there has been improvement. Although I do not visit them myself now, I have been in one or two lately, and from outward appearances, as I can see through the windows sometimes of the shops, I think there is an improvement. 21253. You do not give the Jews a very good character as regards gambling?—No; the lower classes are very fond of gambling, and I have had great difficulty in dealing with it. I have had men out in plain clothes especially to watch them. 21254. Where do they carry it on ?—In private houses ; in the kitchen or cellars of these houses they meet together in the evening, a number of them, and they very often enter by the back doors in two's and threes and fours, and they sit there gambling incessantly. Very often they start on Friday night and go on all day Saturday, and all Saturday night up to Sunday morning. I have known them playing all Sunday ? 21255. There is rather an interesting bit of evidence in your statement as to the remuneration of the householder where gambling is carried on ?—Yes, the householder receives so much for each game—generally a few coppers, twopence or so. That has been given in evidence at the trials, and it renders them liable too, by having an interest in it. 21256. Have you got any convictions for that — Yes, I have one man waiting at the Sessions now, charged with keeping a gaming house. 21257. He receives a commission on each game played 1 —Yes. 21258. That is very good evidence of keeping a gaming house ?—Yes. This man cannot speak the language ; he has to have an interpreter. 21259. I do not know whether you have brought any figures about the police cases in Manchester ?—I have not. 21260. Have there been many convictions for gambb'ng ? —Not a great many. The last was in March of this year. The one before that was in December, as far as I remem- ber. 21261. Are you speaking now of convictions of foreigners ?—Yes. 21262. You say gambling is much more prevalent among foreigners than among the English ?—Yes; in all the raids that I have made there have been foreigners caught. I had one man fined £50 in December for keeping a gaining house. All the men in the house were fined. There were 22 in the house at the time I raided it. 21263. You say there is a great deal of diificulty|in. raiding these gaming houses 1—Yes. They know we are on the look-out, and they make themselves as secure- as possible by screening the windows and shutting out observation. As soon as they get wind that we are- watching them they move to another place, and shift- about to different houses. 21264. Now turn to the other side of the picture. You have said a great deal against them. What have you to say in their favour ? Are they temperate ?—Yes, they are very temperate. We have very little trouble with them. The females especially are very temperate. 21265. You say the Jewish population in Manchester is estimated at from 25,000 to 30,000 1—Yes. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You have no statistics of that,, but the foreign population we can get from the Census. 21266. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You do not mean the alien population is as great as that ?—No; that is all the- foreign population in my district. 21267. Many of those may have been in the country a very long time 2—Some have been in the country 20 years. 21268. You include their children ?—Yes. 21269. According to the Census, the total foreign popu- lation in Manchester is 6,626 males and 5,111 females ?— Those do not include the English Jews. £1270. When you say 25,000 to 30,000, you include those who are practically English, who have been here for a long time, and their children ?—Yes, altogether. 21271. Do you include Salford in what you are sayhg ? —No, only Manchester. 21272. You say they are growing ?—They are in- creasing. 21273. How about the percentage of crime amongst them ?—It is rather small. They are very orderly people,, and they are very little trouble, with the exception of the gambling. 21274. With the exception of the gambling, they are orderly 2—They are. We have very little trouble with them, and there is seldom any disturbance amongst them ; they are law-abiding. 21275. Are there many thieves among them 1—I have got about 40 altogether in my district belonging to this class. Some of them are aliens, and some are English Jews who have been in the country some time. 21276. Have you much foreign crime in Manchester— not only amongst Jews ?—No, we have not. 21277. How about the question of prostitution There are very few prostitutes among them. There are odd ones, but they are very few, a very small percentage compared with our own people. 21278. You say the females are moral ?—They are. My experience of them is that they are very moral. 21279. From the point of view of crime, you say they do not give you much trouble ?—No. 21280. With the exception of gambling ?—That is so* 21281. Do they increase very rapidly ?—They do, much more rapidly than the English people. They seem to marry young, and to have larger families. 21282. How about working on Sundays ?—There is a good deal of work going on on Sundays. Shops are open; tailors are at work and tailors' machines are going; cap-makers and slipper-makers, and even small cabinet-makers, are working on Sundays. Many of the shops in this quarter are open on Sundays. Grocers' shops, provision shops, and all sorts of shops. 21283. Does any inconvenience or difficulty arise from the Sunday working ?—There is no great inconvenience, but there is a strong feeling on the part of our own people. They do not like it at all. 21284. But I suppose it is confined to particular quarters 1—Yes, in this particular area. 21285. What is the size of that area ?—Within a square mile. 21286. The only thing that remains in your note is the question of obstruction. Do you get much trouble in that respect ?—A good deal. 21287. Is that with the costermongers selling in theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 771 streets ?—No, it arises from people standing about at the corners and smoking, and doing nothing. They stand there and have a conversation. 21288. Is there much street trading with costermongers ? —No, comparatively little. There are a few hawking fruit and vegetables about the streets, but very few. 21289. Are you strict about that in Manchester ; do you prevent costermongers ?—No, except in the principal streets. In the other streets we are not very strict with them as long as they keep moving about in a reasonable manner. 21290. As long as they do not cause actual obstruction? —Yes. , 21291. (Mr. Yallance.) How many Police Divisions have you in Manchester?—Four. 21292. What would be your estimate of the population in the division?—About one quarter of the population of the Gity. I would have nearly 200,000. 21293. You estimate that in that population 25,000 to 30,000 would be Jews?—Yes, foreigners ; alien Jews. 21294. But accepting the Census figures of between 6,000 gdad 7,000 foreigners, and assuming that a consider- able portion of those are Jews, the large majority of the 25,000 or 30,000 would be those who have resided many years in Manchester?—Yes, the English population. 21295. When you speak of their exceedingly dirty habits, are you referring to those who have lived under the usual City conditions in England ; are they of dirty habits?—Some of them that I know personally have been in the country 15 or 16 years ; and they seem very little better than when they came. Others are quite the reverse. 21296. You have spoken of demolitions by the Lanca- shire and Yorkshire Eailway. The Railway Company "were obliged to provide accommodation?—Equal accom- modation for the displacement, I believe. 21297. What class of population were occupying and inhabiting those houses which were demolished?—The labouring classes chiefly. ! 21298. Were they natives or aliens?—Natives. 21299. Then the natives were displaced?—Yes. 21300. And in the new buildings which were provided the Jews were received?—Yes, that is so. 21301. Why should the railway company, as owner of that property, give preference to a Jewish population who were addicted to these dirty habits?—I could not say that; only the new buildings were erected right in the centre of the foreign quarter, and the houses which were pulled down were perhaps half a mile or a mile off. They did not erect the new buildings on exactly the same ground where they had displaced the others. 21302. But I take it, like other cities there is not an excess of provision or accommodation for the people?— There is not. 21303. If the native population are more cleanly in their habits why have they not been preferred to the Jewish population?—I could not answer you that; that is a matter for the railway company. 21304. When you say they are exceptionally dirty in their habits and only slightly improved by residence here, may I ask whether that is the result of your ex- perience as sanitary inspector in Manchester?—Yes, it is.-- 21305. You have had to take proceedings under the Public Health Act, I suppose, at different times?—Yes. 21306. Have your proceedings for the most part been against Jews or against natives and Jews in equal pro- portion?—Against both, but a larger proportion against Jews, because I had more work amongst them than amongst the other population. 21307. You have had a good deal of experience in the mode of life of the Jews?—Yes, I have. N 21308. You know that their religion enjoins a certain amount of personal cleanliness, at all events ?—Yes. 21309. Which does not prevail amongst the native population?—That is so. 21310. Does not that tend somewhat to cleanly habits generally?—Yes, in their cooking and eating arrange- ments, but not in their household arrangements or their sanitary arrangements. It does not seem to interfere much with that. GUmour, 21311. You have not seen much improvement as the 7 May 1903. years have gone on?—Very little. - 21312. You would not agree with the witnesses wno nave said that while in their habits they have been not so cleanly as the native population when they first come, yet they soon fall into English ways, and sometimes they are even preferred as tenants by reason of their cleanly habits, would you agree with that?—No, that is not my ex- perience. That applies to a few of them, but only to a few of them ; a small percentage. 21313. You say their houses inside are seldom thorough- ly cleansed?—That is my experience. 21314. Their religion enjoins, at all events, an annual cleansing?—That is so. 21315. You know from, your experience as a sanitary inspector, they do have a thorough cleansing?—Yes. 21316. It would be a good thing if all houses got the same?—Yes, it would be a very good thing if it was about once a month. 21317. During your period of office as sanitary inspector, you say you found that the Jews were more disposed to overcrowding than the natives ?—Yes. 21318. Could you give us any figures as to the pro- ceedings you have taken during the specific period?—No, I have not taken any statistics. 21319. Have you taken any proceedings?—Yes, in the years I spoke of, 1886 to 1890. 21320. Is your Corporation active in remedying over- crowding?—Yes, the Sanitary Department is. 21321. Are they constantly inspecting and taking proceedings?—Yes, almost Weekly. 21322. Have you had some experience as to whether there have been few or many proportionally?—No, not recently, because it has been out of my hands. 21323. But during the time you were there?—During the time I was there I had a batch of them nearly every fortnight. 21324. Were they Jews only?—Chiefly. 21325. Notwithstanding their small numbers they were chiefly Jews?—Chiefly foreigners. 21326. Your evidence does not quite accord with the other evidence we have had-- 21327. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You paid special attention to that?—Yes, that was my duty. I was retained for that. 21328. {Mr. Yallance.) You say they are temperate and orderly?—They are. 21329. And also they have domestic virtues which are worthy of commendation?—Yes. 21330. The men are good husbands and fathers?— Undoubtedly. 21331. You speak of the Jewish population. That is not quite what the Commission have been aiming at getting particulars of. Your Jewish population are a long residential population, for the most part. The Census figures do not give a fourth in the whole City of Manchester of your Jewish population, and, therefore, assuming that there are not more than 4,000 or 5,000 aliens-- (Major Evans-Gordon.) The Census figures give much more than 4,000 or 5,000 in Manchester, lie Census figures give Russians and Poles, males and females, in Manchester (leaving out Salford) as 7,138 ; and Salford 956. Then there is a considerable foreign population besides that. 21332. (Mr.' Yallance.) There is one point in your evidence that should not be lost sight of, and that is that your division is really the Jewish quarter of Manchester ? —Yes. 21333. Consequently, the proceedings would necessarily be against the Jews ?—That is so. 21334. They would give the majority of convictions ?— Yes, that is so. 21335. (Lord Rothschild.) You ceased to be Sanitary Inspector in 1890 ?—That is so. 6144, 5 B 2ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : #3 Aax siixce,iSSOrfou h^npt,pre;cise.know- ledge of the internal affairs o! the Jewish population ?— T^bat is.so. r My; duties are more outside than inside 21337. At the present; imopientv you f ;4o > knpw whether^ thej^ h^ve i^proyed in their .Jiabhs,and whether t^ey^are cleaner; |Jian /they, were l£. years ago ?^-Jlxpept fr^m puisiSe dhservatlotis.' I have visited alew. . 213,38. ^pik>haye stated , in your evidence, that they throve certai#. things o^it of the window ?—Yes, fand that , I have gepn^ recently ; a week to-dayl saw that; .done*, .. -21339.- -I thinkwe had a witness; -.here,. Cahon, Barnett, who said that, in his opinion, the difference ^between the _Ghristto #^4: tihe-Je^ was that one threw;: it under the bed and the other threw it out of the >vindow / WI do not think so. 21340. But he lived in the East Enid of London. Since 1890 you know very little or nothing of the internal arrangements in their houses ?—That is so. I do not know much about the internal arrangements. 21341. You cannot tell whether; in the last 12-iyears, o theyhaveim proved or not?: You say there is overcrowding amongst the Jews—that is to say, there was overcrowding inygur quarter wjien^oiv^ere Sanitary Inspector ?—Yes. ' 21342..' Is It hot a common thing in Manchester and Salford for everybody to take in lodgers and create ovei4- ^pwdihg^-^ot every body iv ••• f; > 31343. Butamongst the working-dlass they do take in lodgers ?—A few of them, but only a few—a small per- 21344. I should like to know,l if the aliens Or foreign population damage the/houseslso^much, why the landlords continue to let the houses to them, and particularly the ^{^c^sl^, a^4r^9rfe^^l-^ilW3r Cpmpany ,?—Because "they get a better rentH-th^y vmk\<. .,.,;21345r,The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company jajet a double rent ?—Not that particular lot. That is only a very small portion. That is only one block. Houses that- used to let for 6s. and 7s. a week are now ..bringingvim 10s. to 12s; and 15s. a week. ; <>■ ; • v. • ' 21346. You siy they are more-5 addicted to gambling than the rest of the people of Manchester ?—Yes, this class of gambling—gaming houses. ■ : 21347; .'Do/the. rest of, the population '• bet on horses, or not ?—A good many of them go to races, but they do not have gamipg in each other's houses all night. 21348. They do notplay cards ?--Not all night lpng-f- not/that we can find put. . : ,^ 21349.: Witnesses have told us that one of the; great objections to the Jewish population is that they work ah higM long. I do not knoiv whether :they dp, but if- they work all night long they cannot very well be gambling at &L\\ hoto. odlsi your i accusation right* jot tthel other one: ?— Many of those whom I have arrested-for this gambling never jwork at all.They get their living, by following race meetings. 21350. Do you .mean. tp;say that,,although you, have ^saif ,fei!on|y ^ per cent, of :the. population are criminals, thatm^ny ofthos^whom you have, arrested, for gambling ^prhbtf^prk;'^,9,lll-^Yes; thai-is* so. - 112135h';Are rthey' a very large proportion ?—-No, a very small proportion,, i ; (°f2l35&. :Nbw ybii say that those you have arrested for gaming are a very small proportion ?—Yes. 0''^M<03^bu said that. $ lai'ge 'quantity of these;' 25,000 SflSt^wCT| giveft up to gaming ?— No,' I cti'd fnbt say $ &ge'{proportion.''., •' "r';; "/ " 'f ' ['^r^melrri Qighy.) I. do nqt thi^k' tjie witness said there was a very large proportion addicted to gambling. He said, gambling was prevalent; among,|hem.! ? And now; you say they domot WQrtj-^-1, do not say only those. I say many of them are frequenters of these gambling dens. ;21355. Many of those you arrest [for gambling do not work 1—Yes. > .. _ 213,56. ,TM .cli,arg€i ;.that has been .brought against.them (I do not say whether it is right or wrong) is that they work long hpurs, and I want to know, if they, work long hours and work far into the night, how they can gamble at the same time ?—It is a different class of them. „;: 2]|$5$>y Then : ypu^ say. tjiat , the; ,/rgal, sriipinal- €^S3> only 2.,per cent. WAbowt; that. . ......... M,.,. 21358. (Major !.tfeatT|»iir pa^tejiafj Manc3teter,is,mostlya fpi^igi^^^ar^er 4-r-Jhait ■is-so. .. ..... 21$5$ And ^that4^^an that rquarter^-likerje ? .diffei^# classes jpf people,^yell-to-dp^s^nddiligent T* jYes,.;al(,grades.,:^v,,-,^ ;,v. •' v 21360. Clean and cleanly 1—Yes. . • , h '21361:. " '©ofri^'^^ddwti-iiitb'; tlife ^lo# cla^ down to the lowest grade. • •'5 ■ 21362. Those people you speak- ;6f;rwho^e habits you describe, would be the poorer class, I suppose h—Yes. ' 21363. And they remain more br less in a chron ie state of dirt and insanitationl—That is so.: i 21364. Are the lowest classes in that stratum in your district natives or aliens ?—:Both, mixed. Some of them« have been here many years, and others are only newly arrived, and they mix up with them. 21365. You hare not been inside their houses much o^ recent years 1—Not much. - - . ,;. ( 21366. These conditions you describe, such as emptying chamber utensils out ^of the window, and the yards .and'so IfPtth, being^ saturatedAvith ex:creta, thos^e cbnditipns you are well able to judge of?—Yes. 21367. Do you see those things in the course of your duties?—Yes, bnly^last week? . ,21368.. Last .week you saw those conditions, remaining? ^|es., . 21369. These conditions you describe are very serious ; What steps.,dp,tb^-rManphester sanitary...authorities take to get rid of them 1, The sanitary inspector is constantly rpund ampngstthem i trying to put. it down and instruct them in the sanitary .laws* and(.advise,thenu . ;i , 21370. Are,prosecutionsundertaken?—Prosecutions are frequently undertaken, even by the police, when they are caught red-handed. 21371. Can you prosecute for throwing things out of the window1?—Yes, the police have power to prosecute for that. 21372. Do you find in Manchester that in these over- crowded courts in the foreign quarter, the bad conditions- occur1?—Yes.. • - - ' • - 21373. With reference to what Lord Rothschild wa& asking you about the gambling houses, among this low class of foreigners,; there is a regular gambling set, I sup- pose?—Yes.; 21374. They do not belong: to the thrifty and diligent working class1?—Oh no, they are a.different class. 21375. There are loafers and, gamblers?—Yes, and they sometimes draw, a few respectable men in with them,, and lead' them off. 21376., That you w^ld call the undesirable element sof ther foreign- .popiilatipn ?—Yes ; I have frequently received anonymous letters from their wives—weekly almost. n 21377. That class of people, you would say, tend to» lower (/,the standard of tbe cpmfort of the community generally?—They do. , • 21378. Moving; about i the; district as much as you do,, is there a feeling between the English and the foreign pppulation ?—Yes, there is. 21379. How ^ would you - describe the feeling?—They are. annoyed so many of, them .coming in and moving ^emjput,;^! causing.therents tojo^p, ap.d .they:)donot ^e^^te^^ neighbours. i i ;2it380iJ/©oithey ascribevthe rise of rents) ands idisplacen ment from their houses to the . incoming population ?—Yes j theyr.often say sq. i.Tfhey say ; rVWe would.not have to- pay half the-rent., only, for these people taking, the houses- over our heads." . 21381. Would the men who keep, these gaming houses,, the foreigners, be the, men who probably .kept gaming houses abroad?—I do not think so. • 21382. Then at the end of your statement you say that many-of these trades, such as tailoring, cap making, slipper making and cabinet making, and so on, are'conductecl in ordinary domestic rooms?-^That is so.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 773 y,,2}:383, Hag that come. under your personal notice?— hftS.., Recently?^ Yes, I have seen them street, through the windows, t ^ ; - i- f .... ^~21385.Then here again there would be a large class e^pl0yed4n weil-eonducted • factories Oh, yes. ,; : 21386. And then beneath them a number employed irr h6meVwdrk?-^Yesj they are called out-worker§< - 21387. And that work, is conducted under bad, con d^io^l^-Y^tlie home work. >;21388t., it ig there the bad: conditions prevail?—There only. - ^38Q; How do you measure the increase that, you speak of ? How does that come under your observation % You say it is steadily increasing1?—Yes ; steadily in- creasing by the way they are spreading out, ancl from the numbers I see coining in every week. ' 2139CX Is the area that "they occupy in Manchester steadily pressing outwards!>and increasing?—Yes ; - it- is' pressing outwards and taking up -new streets. Each yeart they;e^tend into other streets.. 21391;' Is the house property changing hands there?— A small portion df iti^ It is getting into the foreign larid- lords' hands. .. (cy «'!V..." " v.-- -■ ' 21392. You would Say that the demand for hous6'; accommodation by these ,people coming in, and by their natural increase, increases rents?—Undoubtedly. "21393. {Sir Kenelia Digby.) Have you much trouble- about wife desertion?—A little bit. : 21394. Would you say at all it is specially character^ istic of this class of alien?—No. ^Mr.. J* - 'Gilm&ur: Dr. Edward William Hope, called' in ; and Examined. a:21395. i(Sir Kmelm Digby.) Yrou are Medical Officer of -Health of Liverpool?—I am, 21396. I think you wish to confine what you have, to say t^rwlaat ivv^ may call foreign immigration—that is to s^y^fftjBfimjpigrant who comes here in a state pf .poverty ?—. Yes,- v-\ u21397. And 'who have to earn their own living in; the-r lowest-ranks?—Quite so. I wish to say there is a large1-number of - foreign traders and merchants^ who wpuld tof, course be> imagine,* beyond the scope of this inquiry. , .They are, . persons of considerable . wealth and position. , 21398; You in Liverpool have 40 consular repre- sentatives representing (40, independent Governments,' and therefore you have considerable experience of the fpreign elements?—We have 40 independent Govern- ment represented by consuls in Liverpool. It is rather a surprising thing, but it is so. 21399. What do you say generally as to the settling of aliens, in Liverpool ? How long has it been going on, and alwhat rate ?—For the last ten or 15 years, or 20 years, aliens have been settling in Liverpool, but of recent years this immigration has increased. 21400. You mean for 10 or 15 years it has been marked ? -^Yes. 21401. And of late years it has increased ?—Yes. 21402. You wish, I think, to speak first of all of those that come from Russia and Poland ?—The great majority ccme from Western Russia and Poland, principally from the borders of the German frontier, so far as one can ascertain,. and there iare two distinct races—one is the Jewish and the other the Christian. Large numbers of both come fro those two places. They settle in inde- pendent colonies, the Jewish colony being principally in twjq^ea^.. One may be called the Browrilow Hill area, and tlie other the Fairclough Lane area, 21403. How many of them are in that area ?—These are the -.areas of the - Jewish settlers, and they would number approximately 5,000 in those two. areas. As a general ^le,|;these houses are somewhat larger than the ordinary cottage houses of the labouring classes, and, as a conse- quence of that, the houses are sub-let.. They are occupied yf^Wo or ^perhaps by three families. s-21404; And they become lodging-houses ?—They be- e©me, sublet lodging-hoii ses, > bu;t, occupied almost; entirely b^eoplefbfj tlxe:.Jewish faith. , u$t406. Now yoij. are on the subject- of the houses, will character of the iWses,?-7-'I should say that the standard of domestic cleaiilihess amongst this class is a krtv'one, more especially with regard to the condition of the floors of the houses, fthis part of the; domestic cleanliness- is-- not done. by. the Jewish women, but they employ others.- They employ natives as charwomen and scrubbers, and so on, to do their cleaning work. .... . ■ . 21406. Are they ii>: a .position-to, employ other people to do tjiq work for them, ?—Yes, and they employ, them. ;':2I407: Then -what sort of cl^ss are you speaking of ? What would the husband be doing ? Would he be tailoring, or something of that sort ?—He would be tailoring or cabinet-making, or working in some trade of Li\ E. W+ that description. Perhaps he would keep a small shop. 21408. Are- you speaking of the class that has been here5 for some time or are they freshly arrived ?~-I am speaking of comparatively recent arrivals as well as those who llave been here for some longer period. 21409. Do they come to you at Liverpool from oth'ef towns, or do they come direct from abroad ?—Some of them, < I think, come from other towns, but they mostly- come direct from abroad. Most of the new arrivals come direct...:-, ■ .. .. , . amongst, artificially-fed infants, then is ten? or twelve times as great as-it is; amongst breast- fed infants.* > It makes an enormous difference. - 21416. Speaking generally, is the rate of infant mor- tality high or low amongst this class ?—It is relatively- low. 21417. In order to get your evidence properly arranged^, does that conclude pretty well what you have to say- about the sanitary conditions ?—I should like to addthi# with regard to the feeding of ths infants. The Jews, as^ Hope.774 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : y°u know, are very particular about their source of food Hope. supply, and it does happen amongst them as amongst 7 P^hers they are not always able to suckle their x ' infants, and they must feed them artificially for physio- logical reasons of one kind and another, and the Jewish people then apply to the Corporation for specially- prepared milk exactly as Christians do. They put aside their prejudice in favour of preparing their own food in that case in the interests of the infants, and obtain the specially-prepared milk just the same as the Christians do. I mention that as showing the great care which is taken of the infants by the Jewish mothers of this class. 21418. Do you wish to say anything about the rents o^ the houses ?—Perhaps I may say, before turning to that subject, that many of these foreigners on arrival are less cleanly than they subsequently become. We have a staff of female inspectors as well as male inspectors, and it is the business of that staff to instruct all the poorer classes in the conduct of their houses and general sanitary arrange- ments, and we find that this section tends very quickly to adapt itself to our requirements as quickly as could be < »■ expected. 21419. Do you find much difficulty with regard to the language ?—No, not amongst the Jewish section, because 4here are amongst them always neighbours who speak ^English. What happens is this, that those who can speak English interpret for those who cannot. Amongst the -other section the difficulty is greater, as I will presently explain. 21420. You say these female sanitary inspectors give them instruction and advice as to the management of their houses, and do you find they follow it pretty readily % —Yes, we find they follow it as well as any other section of the community of the same class, if not better. 21421. In your experience as medical officer, have yoo . .often to have recourse to prosecutions 2—No ; relatively .not as frequently as with the lower class labouring popu- lation. 21422. Not as frequently'{—Not as frequently m proportion. If the requirements are explained to them they endeavour to comply with those requirements. At .the same time, with regard to the tendency to over „ crowding, they almost invariably put in the maximum number which the law permits. They know exactly what it is ; they soon find out, and they use that to the .. outside limit, and, of course, there is no reason why they should not. 21423. But you say they do take pains to know what the law does require, and observe it %—Yes. £1424. What do you attribute that to, because that j}s not our experience in London 1—Partly to supervision, v .and partly to the fact that their numbers are not so great. We have not yet experienced anything like the pinch .which I understand you have in London. 21425. But so far as your experience in Liverpool is concerned, you do find that it is not difficult to enforce -the law as regards overcrowding %—No, it is not difficult 21426. They take full advantage of the law, but do not go beyond it %—Yes. Of course, with them, as with vothers of the same class, constant supervision is necessary. 21427. And is that provided in Liverpool %—Oh, yes, -we are very particular on the overcrowding question. It is looked upon as an exceedingly important question, ■and every sub-let house below a certain rental or of a certain kind is placed upon the register, and the number of inmates is recorded and restricted. 21428. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What is the ^ rental there :thbse come through London chiefly. Those coming through Hull are also,,Russians and Poles,. but a,great many Finns and Scandinavians come that way, ; V ,.2147.7. Do you • happen to toow ^whether-thpsSjfea^g- niigrants have been passed through a medicaL sieye before they come to you in Liverpool ?—No/1 do not think they have-—in fact, I believe they have not. ... 121478..;; (Siv-Kenelrro JQigby.) When you say- you, believe jheyyhaye/iiot, could you give any reason for that?— 7Yes, t^e reason I have is that in the event of any disease prevailing,in that district from, which t^ey come, special .precautions would be adopted,, and those special, pre- cautions would consist in a medical examination. The inference, therefore,' is that, "in the absence ol any such -■fe'ason for it, there would be no such examination. "v"" 21479. Do they bring any certificates with them at. Wall4?*5 We have h^d evidence that; before- they are shippe:1 ^ome of the ports,/jbhetB is-arpractice of their having mfedical certificates given them-* Do any of these trans- migrants produce medical certificates of that kind ?— TNo^L have. not seen any. It may be they' are subject tO;;aomedical inspection.. _ Probably they are; of some kind or other, for fear of their being rejected in America. 21480. The. shipping company does not incur the ex- pense .of- bringing them from the German port if there is a chance of their being re j ected ?—Quite so. ^ ( 21481. ?;Then, I take it from you that there is this in- spection, iarid that it results in a detention which, as a general'rule,11 is only temporary - owing to some passing ailment being discovered, and, ag a general rule, these transmigrants go on ?—"As a general rule. - 21482i At all events, there is no mass of people thrown back on the country ?--No. These trans- migrants are booked right through from the place where they are collected in Russia, right: through to &heir destination in Ainerica, and they are chargeable to the shipping companies until they are landed at their 'destination. •• , 21483-1 Those coming from I^ondon^ I\suppose, are not laopked;.through*?—Yes>: I believe they are all booked •rigi^t through.- .f v : : . - , . 21484i ®hey, would probably have tickets from London,.-or a good many of them would, according to the ^evidence, we have had ?•—That may be. v 21485. You have told us about the rejections at Liver .pool. Can you tell'Us anything about what happens to the people who are actually rejected in America?— Those people are sent back again, or are believed to be sent back again, and no doubt they are, to their native country at their own cost, generally ■ speaking. It may be that the steamship companies sometimes send them back, but, so far as one can learn, the cost is repaid to the shipping company very fre- - .quently by the passengers themselves or their friends. 21486. Then, as a matter of fact, are they sent back or do they stop here ?—They are sent back. 21487. Do you know of any case of persons rejected in America stopping in this country?—Yes, I know of -some, but very few in number, and it so happens that those I have in my mind at the moment were instances • of respectable, good people, who would not be objected to anywhere. Still, they were rejected on account of • some temporary condition of the eyes, perhaps, ^trachoma, or some inflammatory state of the eye. Then 7! have instances in my mind in which the rejections -were on more serious grounds. 21488. Criminal?-—No, physical grounds. 21489; You are speaking of health only?1—Yes, only health. In some of those instances considerable diffi- culty was experienced in getting them back to their native country, but they did ultimately go back. 21490. Then, so far as your experience goes, you -would not say there is an appreciable number of per- rsons who stay in; this country,. either because they are rejected in Liverpool or because they go back after "having been rejected in America ?—No, there, is no . appreciable number, so far as my experience goes. ' 21491. {Lord Rothschild.) I think you said there were '200$000 transmigrants ?-^Yes, more than that. .7 21492. If any law was passed preventing aliens from landing here; that law would be very damaging to tlie shipping trade in Liverpool, would it not?—Yes, any 'sweeping law prohibiting . immigration through* Liver- pool would, of course, be.dauiagijig to. the interest of liiverpool. 21493. (Mr. Vallance.) What is the. area of your work ? Is it the parish of Liverpool ?—No, the city and . the port of.. Jjiverppolr—the entire, municipality. , , 21494. Including West Derby ?-—It includes almost all of: that.. The municipal boundaryand? thei West Derby Guardians. boundary.•are not quite coterminous. One goes further into the country than the other. The We3t Derby Guardians include a large rural area. 21495. Then, i that large area represents a very con- siderable population?—'The city of Liverpool popula- tion is roughly 710,000. ' 1 ' , 21496. Including West Derby ?—Including that part of West D6rby which lies within the city. , J -,.7 21497.. Then the aliens who have come into Liverpool are relatively very few in number ?—Yes. 21498. Therefore, you have not been confronted with any alien problem ?—That is quite so. - .; - 21499. With regard to the question of overcrowding, and procedings you take under the Act, have you by experience found there is a greater tendency to over- crowding o%;the part of the alien than on the part of the/native ?—rNo. > Of course my experience* is based upon the fact that there is a very constant and very rigid syst&in of. supervision. What would happen without that one'could easily foresee , ,There • would, be,,argre,at deal of overcrowding.amongst all the poor sections. 21500. (fiord Rothschild.) You think that by a rigid system of supervision j a great deal of overcrowding could be prevented ?—Yes, undoubtedly. ; ' 21501. (Mr. Vallance.) As far as Liverpool is con- cerned, the present condition of the law is sufficient for your purpose?—Yes. 21502. You have spoken of a certain small number of persons who have settled in Liverpool by reason of bein^r rej ected in America ?—Yes, very few. :215U3. .You know there has recently been an amended law passed by the House of Representatives in Wash- ington, which is a more stringent law than was for- merly in existence?—I believe they are getting a little more stringent in their requirements. 21504. Assuming for a moment that the operation of that law was to increase the, stringency and increase the number of rejections, would there be any danger, unless precautionary measures were taken by statute or otherwise, of a considerable number settling here? —I think it is very, desirable that every possible mea« sure should be taken to prevent the settling of un- desirable people. Criminal classes, careless, incom- petent, and incapable people, as many of those as could be excluded from the country the better ; but the diffi culty is to pick those out. 21505. Have you been led by your experience to form any opinion as to what could be done in such a -port as Liverpool to prevent the settlement or entry of undesirables into the country—undesirables in a broad sense, to be defined afterwards ; say, for instance, any person convicted of crime or1 of bad character, or immoral or diseased ?—I imagine that some assistance might be derived from the action taken by the. United States Government. For example, if they reject a cer- tain number of people as undesirables, and tho^e people are brought back again to Liverpool, inquiries might .be made into the reasons why 'they were rejected ; whether there was equally good ground for refusing their re-admission to England that there had been for refusing their admission to the United States, and if so, those people might be dealt with specially and sent to their homes. 21506. If I understand you rightly, if a given number of transmigrants passing through Liverpool for America are there rejected and brought back again to Liverpool, there should be a machinery for passing them back to the place from whence they came ?— Yes, I think that is most desirable. 21507. Have you had any experience at all of any number of cattle men being dumped down in Liver- pool ?—Temporarily, but I do not think that that can be very well avoided. The cattle men are constantly coming over with the cargoes of live cattle ; it may be that some sickness or accident results in a number ot them being, at all events for the time being, put, on the resources of the city, as, for example, in the recent •knjportation of small-pox, some 40 or 50, or it may be 10.0, cattle men* were detained in Liverpool for a certain i»e,, ibut I think that was neither more nor less thanMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 77*7 an incident of commerce. The men engaged in it were overtaken by this accident, and necessarily they had to 'be provided for in some measure at the point where the accident befell them. 21508. Has it come within your knowledge, and would you say it was correct, that very frequently men who are the off-scourings of the street in New York are engaged for a nominal sum to accompany cattle to this country with the distinct intention of landing those "men and not taking them back again?:—>1 can quite Imagine it, but I have no absolute evidence of it; I think there might be no reason to question it. 21509. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You said that there were undesirables among the comparatively small foreign population already in Liverpool?—Yes, no doubt.. 21510. What sort of undesirables are they ?—Idle and dirty people. 21511. Loafers?—Loafers, probably thieves, and so on. It is extremely probable. 21512. And these people you think it highly desir- able to get rid of, if you can ?—Yes, certainly. 21513. With reference to the children that you say have to go to the schools they are obliged to go, are they not?—They are obliged to go. 21514. With regard to overcrowding, I understand that you are dealing with this in time. You are not allowing it to accumulate on you like it has done in other places ?—No, we are dealing with it in time, as at comes. In fact, quite recently, with the sanction of the Local Government Board, we made our bye-laws more stringent and increased the staff of inspectors for that specific purpose. 21515. To keep it down?—Yes. 21516. -You have not got an already very large over- crowded area to cope with?—We have very densely |>Ojmlated areas to' cope with. 21517. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Irish areas ?—Yes, very large ones, but this system has been in vogue now for many years, and we have kept steadily at it, and we have seized the opportunity to make the bye-laws more stringent. 21518. {Major Evans-Gordon.) You have not allowed the overcrowding to gain ground ?—No. 21519. With regard to the foreign population you would say that they fill the houses up to their legal capacity ?—'They do. 21520. They would be more inclined to d!o that than the native population ?—The native population is more careless. Among the native population we find this thing commonly—-that in a house, say, with four rooms, they fill one or two to such an extent as to constitute an offence, and they all sleep in one or two rooms, and. leave the other one empty. 21521. Is not that due to the prevalent fashion among the natives of having a sitting-room ?—But they have a sitting-room as well. 21522. But they, leave an empty room ?—They leave one room—I do not know why they do it. 21523. Is that with a view of sub-letting ?—No. 21524. (Mr. Vallance.) Is it devoid of furniture?— No, I do not think that is the case at all; they simply sit there talking, and they all lie down and go to sleep. 21525. {Major Evans-Gordon.) And leave the other room empty?—Yes. 21526. {Mr. VaUance.) Is it a room empty of furni- ture?—No, it may have had a bed in it. It is not a common thing, but it does often occur, and I mention it as an illustration of the great carelessness there is among the native population. If people would take the trouble to see what they might do, they would not get into trouble. 21527. {Major Evans-Gordon.) With' regard to these transmigrants, where do they come from principally, do you know?—'Yes, I can tell you and give you the exact number last year, and where they came from— via Grimsby and via Hull principally, and London. ; 21528. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Can you say the relative numbers of those?—I am afraid I cannot give you the British ports at which they landed, but I can tell you the countries from whence they came. 6144. 21529. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Some land in Hull % i and some land ill London and go to Liverpool, and "Hope. others come right across?—Yes. ^ 21530. Those are the principal places?—Yes. 21531. At the ports where they land, Grimsby or Hull, there is iio medical examination ?—So far as I am aware there is no ••careful examination. There 'may b© a medical inspection—'that is, a medical man may bo present when they file past. 21532. But at the port when they are leaving the country there afe three medical inspections?—Yes. 21533. And, therefore, there is very close care taken on three separate occasions of the health of these people?—-There is. 21534. And they are not allowed to embark even on very trivial grounds ?—They have to run a very close gauntlet, so to speak—a very close inspection. 21535. Although there is this close gauntlet of inspec- tion of 200,000 people leaving Liverpool, only very few were stopped ?'—Very few were stopped at Liverpool. 21536. Considering the triviality of the grounds on which they are rejected, is not that a very extraordinary fact?—It is a very surprising fact that these people come in such numbers, and that so few of them are suffer- ing from anything of a serious nature. 21537. Does not that, remarkable fact lead you to sus- pect. that these people have been, or great, numbers of them at all events, carefully weeded before they start ? —Very likely. 21538. Do you, or do you not, know that at Hamburg, Bremen, and other ports from whence these people come, thev are all placed in large depots and examined, and weeded there?—It is quite likely. I had omitted thart from my consideration. I had in my mind the British ports more especially . 21539. But this fact that I now remind you of, thaii at Hamburg, for instance, there is this depdt, wher& 2,000 people are kept under most Wonderful conditions, would be partly an explanation of the extraordinarily small percentage of rejections, would it not ?—It would. 21540. But small or great, the result is this, is it not, that people come freely in and are stopped going out of this country ?—Yes. 21541. Then you say they are kept back and detained until they are cured, and they proceed to embark, if allowed to proceed to embark ?—.When they are well. 21542. If they are got well enough ?—If they are got well enough, and the great majority do. 21543. Then do these people remain where they were while they are being cured?—Some of them remain in the lodging-houses—the immigration houses. 21544. These are kept at the shipping companies' ex- pense ?—Yes. 21545. And what becomes of the others?—Some of them are taken to the City hospitals. 21546. To our hospitals?—Yes, and some of them would be taken to the workhouse1 infirmary. 21547. Do those who are kept back amount to a con- siderable number ?—No. 21548. These kept back pending a, cure ?—A relatively small number—I think, 187 out of 210,000 last year. 21549. Who were kept back at all?—Yes. 21550. The shipping companies have to keep them?— They pay for them. 21551. Surely, then, the shipping companies or their agents abroad would take very good care that their com- pany was not exposed to the risk of keeping the people in Liverpool, would they not ?—I have no doubt they would. 21552. That, again^ is another reason whv you get few rejections ?—Yes ; they would be weeded out at the port of collection. 21§53. With regard to those1 who are sent back to their own country, how do you know that they are sent back P —-I do not know in all instances that they are, but I do know in some. 21554. Do you follow them up ?—Yes. Circumstances have arisen which have enabled us to follow them up. 21555. You have no-isystem of following them up?—I have no system whatever of following them up. Where they go to we do not know. 5 F778 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Br to the shelter. I do not think there is any discrepancy, but certainly nothing material. With regard to the other point, I see I was saying that the allegation that the alien Jew is dirty, and that he has a low standard of living, is true as regards new arrivals, and then I speak of their having to cross Europe. There is one other point that I should like to deal with, as I am here. The Secretary of the Commis- sion wrote, asking me for some information, which I have (supplied him with. You may remember that Lord James threw a doubt upon the possibility of re- patriation, and the Secretary wrote me this letter: "You stated in your evidence that there is no difficulty in re- patriating Jews to Russia. Will you kindly left me know if any enactments or regulations in Russia have removed the difficulty which certainly did exist some time ago? Perhaps you may remember the case of 100 Russians whom Russia refused to allow to land, and who only received permission at last at the special request of the Foreign Office." This is my reply to that inquiry, and I can further elucidate this matter from, recent informa- tion: " Dear Sir,—I delayed replying to your inquiry of the 4th inst. until I had an opportunity of conferring with Mr. Berman, the official of the Jewish Board of Guardians, who is charged with the practical work of repatriation. He fully confirms my .statement that we have never had any difficulty, and sayis that of the 5,000 persons repatriated by the Russo-Jewish Com- mittee during the past 21 years, he has never seen or heard, of one individual who was turned back from the Russian frontier. I suppose that the 100 Russians (to whom you refer in your letter) who were refused re- admission to Russia, and who ultimately obtained per- mission to re-enter at the special request of the Foreigii Office, must have been the Dukhobors returned from Canada. If these are the 100, it is not difficult to account for their treatment. The Dukhobors are a sort of Quaker sect, who will not fight, and consequently evade military service. Moreover, they are Communists, and are thus regarded as revolutionaries by their Government, which, once quit of them, was naturally unwilling to take them back. The fact that it did take them back at the request of the Foreign Office seems to indicate that it recognises it to be a part of the reci- procal goodwill of nations;—comitas gentium, as it was formerly called—that one nation may not burden another nation with undesirables. When I stated that we had encountered no difficulty with our repatriation, and that I foresaw none with compulsory repatriation under the Alien Expulsion Bill that I, with great diffi- dence, suggested, Lord James of Hereford expressed doubts whether an expelled alien could be compelled to land at the Continental port whence he had originally embarked. I ought to have reminded his Lordship that this compulsion was actually carried into effect already by th© Shipping Companies who have to bring back to Europe at the Companies' own expense th# emigrants rejected >at New York. Mr. Berman tails, me thatth® shipping companies, when landing the rejected at Hamburg, nave to pay the cost of their railway transit to the Russian frontier, as the German Government does not permit a settlement in Germany. As far as I can see, the compulsory landing and compulsory repa- triation under an Alien Expulsion Act would be no more difficult than the like process under the present com- pulsory return of undesirables from the United States, nor more difficult than it would be if there were a*i immediate return from British ports of persons forbidden to land under a law of restriction, which I should greatly regret to see enacted.—Yours faithfully, N. S. Joseph." 21587. (Lord Rothschild.) The answer to that is that at the present moment very few have been sent back from America ?—Is that so ? (Lord Rothschild.) We heard so from the witness from Liverpool to-day. 21588. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They may go back from America without coming to Liverpool ?—They may. 21589. They do. They go back to Hamburg in the same way that they came ?—-I find further confirmation on the subjeci in a letter from our honorary agent at Hamburg, who writes thus: " All returned immigrants from America who were not allowed to land there -are being received here by the American line, and, on account of the company, sent free to their homes. 'v 21590. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) As I understand, they are only allowed to land at Hamburg on condition that thei* fares are paid on to Russia ?—-That is so, hut the German Government give facilities for that. Our agent writes:: " The police take care that -the company send them direct from the steamer to the railway, and the people are forwarded to Eydtkiihnen with free tickets, and about 3 marks for expenses on the journey, and tiia- agent in Eydtkiihnen receives the people, and is allowed 11 roubles per head for passports, so that they can proceed further. Whether the agent expends the 11 roubles for passports I cannot say, as it also can hap- pen that he sticks to part of the money, and for one- or two roubles, without passports, can smuggle them through." So that as a practical question there is no difficulty in forcible repatriation. 21591. It comes to this—that, as far as you know, those who are repatriated do, as a matter of fact, get back to Russia?—Yes. 21592. Whether, if we were to adopt a law of restric- tion which would result in our sending back a great many, there Would be any objection on the part of either Germany or Russia remains a matter of doubt? —Except that they make no objection now. 21593. As a matter of fact, it is done ?—Yes. Then there is a further confirmation. Last Friday evening,, in the House of Commons, in reply to Sir Howard Yin- cent, Mr. Gerald Balfour said: "I have ascertained by inquiry from the principal shipping companies who carried the persons, other than British subjects, who were landed in this country in 1902, after being re- jected by the United States or Canadian authorities, that the great majority of these persons were sent by them out of the United Kingdom." No doubt they were transmigrants. " 0*t of a total of 423 aliens so landed,. I have definite information that at least 384 were re- patriated, and probably this was also the case with several of the remaining 39 who have not yet been traced." It was doubtful at whose cost they were re- patriated, and it appears that Dr. Hope, who has given evidence to-day, was doubtful whether these people paid their own fares or not. But I yesterday asked Mr. Stephany, the Secretary of our Board of Guar- dians, to inquire of the Board of Trade as to the facts,, and he says: "I am informed the only information the Board of Trade has is from the shipping companies, and they were repatriated to their own country, and at the cost of the Shipping -Company." So that the obligation is the obligation of. the Shipping Company. Mr. isr. s. Joseph.- 7 May i m Mr. John Harris, called in; and Examinsd. 21594. (Mr. Vallance.) For 30 years you were a mem ber of the Whitechapel Board of Works ?—I was. 21595. And for four years you were chairman of that board?—I was. • 6144. 21596. That was previous to its being merged in the j^r Borough of Stepney ?—Yes. , J. Harris, 21597. At the present time you are senior Alderman-- of the Borough -ajid Guardian of the Whitechapel Union?—Yes. . 5 F 2780 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I ;v. Jfn 21598. You are connected with public institutions and schools in the district?—I am. « 21599. You are also a member of the Port Sanitary Authority of the Corporation of London ?—I am. 21600. Therefore you have had a long experience of the conditions which prevail in the East End of Lpndon ?—I have. 21601. Your experience goes back to a sufficient date to enable you to say what the conditions were, say, 20 years ago, and what the conditions are to-day as re- gards the influx of aliens into the district?—Yes. 21602. I suppose you would accept the simple fact !that there has been a very considerable influx of aliens ? —Quite true. 21603. And that a problem exists in the East End which probably exists nowhere else?—Quite true. 21604. It has been stated in evidence that the influx of aliens has been in volume such as to affect inju- riously the trade of the district ?—It has been so stated. 21605. What would you like to say upon that?—I should like to say that is not quite correct. There is no doubt the trade amongst the English shopkeepers has gone to a certain extent, owing to the decrease of .shipbuilding yards in the East End ; such yards as Samuda's, Wigram's and Green's, and other ship- builders, have ceased in that part of the river. There is. also the closing of the sugar refineries. We had any number of sugar refineries in the East End of London, w}iich are now closed, giving employment, I was going to say, not to hundreds, but to thousands, and naturally they supported the shopkeepers. 21606. Has there been a sugar house in existence in Whitechapel for 20 years?—No; I think the last one was about 1891. 21607. Then any results which may have accrued - during the last 20 years could not be attributed to the iailure of the sugar houses ?—No. So far as those last 12 years are concerned, the sugar refineries being closecl would, affect the trade of the district. 21608. Any effect upon the trade of the district of the closing of the sugar houses must be anterior to 20 years ago, if 20 years ago those sugar houses were closed?—They were not closed 20 years ago ; they were ■only closed in 1891. 21609. Whose was the last?—Martineau's. 21610. I think it would be convenient if you confine yourself to Whitechapel. Martineau's was not in "Whitechapel ?—No ; it was in St. George's. 21611. The greatest congestion in the East End is in Whitechapel ?—Yes. • .21612. And that congestion! is 20 years old. There has been a great influx of aliens into the district?— That is true. 21613. Buring the last 20 years there has not been a sugar house in Whitechapel?—I do not think as long ;as: 20 years, but a great many years. Also I may say, with regard to those sugar refineries being closed, the number of coopers in that district was enormous, and they were employed in respect of the hogsheads of sugar which arrived from different r>arts of the West Indies. Also, with regard to the docks, the trade has fallen •off to a very large extent, and that, I say, is the cause of the English shopkeepers not being able to carry on tbeir business, through this trade ceasing in the dis- trict. 21614. Do I understand that you attribute the de- cline of certain trades in Whitechapel, not so much to the influx of aliens as to the economic changes in the district ?—That is so. It has entirely changed the East End of London. 21615. Would you say that that would account almost entirely for the decline of trade, in face of the fact that the shopkeepers are largely now, in the main roadsr, foreign Jews ?—That is so. Of the people employed in these docks and these refineries and in the shipbuild- ing, there is no work for them ; therefore they have ; moved entirely out of the district, and there is no doubt their places have been taken by the aliens. 21616. From the standpoint of your experience, what "has been the effect of the alien immigration upon the artisans and labourers and mechanics of the district ?— My opinion is that they have had no effect at all in- jurious to the artisans or mechanics in the district, particularly of Whitechapel, which I have represented before being merged into the borbugh. It has had no effect whatsoever. For instance, with regard to en- gineers, electricians, carpenters, painters, and joiners, the aliens do not go into those trades. In respect of the cabinet-making, no doubt the cheap part of the cabinet work is carried on by the aliens, but so far as the bona-fide artisan in the cabinet work is concerned, his wages are better than they were seven years ago. 21617. Would you agree with the witnesses who have already given evidence to the effect that the aliens have for the most part, or almost entirely, brought with them new handicrafts and new developments of industries which have rather competed with the foreign market than with English labour?—That is so. May I say when I was shipping I found that if I wanted any number of mantles, nearly all of those mantles would be made in Germany. I could not get any manufac- tured in this country. 21618. (8 r Kenelm Diqby.) How long ago was that? —Twenty years ago. They were all manufactured abroad. They have introduced, no doubt, a great deal of the. furriers' trade, and waterproofs ; and in respect of clothing, if I was shipping clothing, the export in clothing I was going to say has trebled and trebled to what it was years ago, in consequence of the clothing factories, with respect to what we may call the Eng- lish or bona-fide tailors ; you cannot get them, and if you could get them, their wages are double to what they used to be only 10 years ago. In fact, you cannot get them at all. It is impossible to get them. 21619. (Mr. Vallance.) You say, from the standpoint of your experience, alien immigration has not dis- placed trade, and has not displaced native labour ?— Yes. 21620. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With reference to your last answer but one, you say it is impossible to> get labour. Is that because of the development of the trade and the requirement of more labour, or because of the scarcity of labour?—The scarcity of bond fide tailors. You cannot get them. If you go to any be- spoke department you will find the difficulty. The other day I s'aid : " I must have a coat made by hand." They said : " If it is made by hand you will have to wait for it 10 days or a fortnight." You can get machinists, but those machinists iare, to a certain extent, limited, and it is all in the hands of the aliens. 21621. (Mr. Vallance.) Now with! regard to the dis- placement of population. Have the aliens, in your opinion, displaced the population, or is there any other reason to account for the change?—In my opinion the reason for the alien taking the place the English occupied was in consequence, as I said previously, of those trades or factories being entirely moved out of the district. The district has entirely altered. It is the same as Coventry, at one time it used} to be the place for ribbons ; then it became the place for watches; and then for bicycles. So it is in the East End of London. 'The whole trade has entirely altered to what it was 20 years ago. 21622. In certain districts in the East End there has been evidence of very considerable overcrowding?-— Yes. 21623. And, side by side with that overcrowding, there has been a gradual augmentation of rents ?—Yes. 21624. If economical causes are responsible for the withdrawal of the native population, then how would you account for the increasing rents in that district ?— Because the very large number, and the excessive number, of aliens coming here has no doubt caused the rents to increase to a large extent. 21625. If the alien is responsible to any extent for the increase of rent, in what way has that operated to increase the rents? Take it in a concrete form. You have half a dozen houses which were formerly occupied by English tenants, and which are now occupied by aliens. What would be the process ?—The process would be this : those houses were occupied by English- men, and there would be no employment for them in the district, therefore they migrate to East Ham, Wood- ford, or Walthamstow, where you will find the popula- tion has increased enormously, «,nd the houses then are occupied by aliens. I say this without fear of contra- diction, if the aliens wer^ entirely out of the borough of Stepney, the borough of Stepney would be bank- rupt. 21626. Supposing there are two houses side by side, and the rent of one is 30 per cent, more than the other, and that 30 per cent, is being paid by an alien occupier. Why should he pay 30 per cent, more ?—Because he hasMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 781 let part of that house to his fellow countrymen, and therefore he is ena/bledi to pay the larger amount to what the other one would. 21627. Then his; house would be in a more overcrowded Condition than his neighbour's houise ?—There is no •doubt of it. 21628. And the landlord has taken advantage of that and demanded a higher rent?—Yes. 21629. Which, by reason of the overcrowding being permitted, he has been afole to pay?—I will not say '"permitted "—-not been found out, if you like. 21630. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The overcrowding, what- ever the reason, is going on ?—Yes. 21631. (Mr. Vallance.) This condition of overcrowd- :ing is an undesirable condition?—Very. 21632. Are you on the Public Health Committee of the Council ?—No, but I have been on the District Board • of "Works. I am on the Public Health Committee of the Corporation. 21633. Are you, with your experience, prepared to say that the Borough Council are doing all they can to cope ;with this overcrowding, and that if they are left alone, without any change of law, or without any exclusion of the immigrant, they will not be able to cope with it ? -—I think we have a most zealous medical officer of . Health, and he is assisted by a very good staff of officers, and I may say there is hardly a week without a convic- tion in the police court, and very large penalties in- flicted—sometimes as high as £5. The bye-laws have been strengthened, so that we can enter those places at all times of the night, where we could not before ; and there is no doubt that we shall be able in time to cope with the overcrowding. But if I had my way I would go back to the law of 1894, when the police had power • over these houses, and where they inspected them. I should like, if it could be done, that the police should have power again over these houses, and that they should be registered by the local authorities, and that they should be sent on to the police of the division, and tlie police should keep at least observation on those ' houses, so ?.s to assist the local authorities. 21634. Was not the authority of the police confined to common lodging houses under the Common Lodging I Houses Act?—-Yes. 21635. That would not include these houses ?—But I : should like such a law to-day as was then in existence with respect to common lodging houses. 21636. Would you be in favour of the control of the • common lodging houses, plus the registered tenement houses, being handed over to the police ?—As they were : before. 21637. I am not quite clear as to your position with reference to overcrowding. Would you b©' in favour of < closing the door against any class of immigrants coming into the country?—Oh, yes. 21638. Whom would you include?—>1 would include, ^ ; as you have often had in evidence, thie undesirables, * ' those not physically fit, those of bad character, and f others of that class. 21639. You would have "undesirables" defined and scheduled, and you would definitely exclude them?— ~ Yes. 21640.' Has it ever occurred to. you that what might not be possible in the case of the country generally 1 might be applied to a system of exclusion from a dis- ' trict declared by the municipal authority to be already - congested ?—I am very much against that, I am afraid it would cause a great deal of ill-feeling in the country. • I believe at the present moment they are much better :in the district where they are, the same as the French . are in Soho, the Italians in the Saffron Hill district. ' If you are going to place them in excessive numbers in other parts of England or outside London, I think it ' will cause a great deal of ill-feeling. That is my Ksandid opinion. 21641. Would you regard 54,000 aliens in Stepney • as an excessive number ?—I think there are quite • enough. I should like to see the numlber reduced. 21642. It would be in your judgment undesirable to ^ extend that number in the interests of the community • generally ?—I think it would be undesirable, and the • only way you .can '.try to do that would be by altering vbhe law. , 21643. Supposing in your Borough of Stepney there Mr. is within the knowledge of the Borough Council an area J. Harris. which is already congested, so much so that the ques- - tion of overcrowding becomes a most difficult matter 7 May 1903. with the Council, would you say it would be a proper proceeding or an improper one for the Borough Council to declare that area congested, and, subject to- the approval of the Local Government Board, preclude any admissions into that specific area?—I should not do that. 21644. You would not be in favour of that ?—'No. 21645. What would be the ill results of that ?—The ill results would be, as I said before, to drive these people into other pa^ts of London, which would cause, in my opinion, a great deal of feeling between the English and the aliens. 21646. It would not be "driving,5' would it?—It would be next to it. 21647. Supposing an alien came into the country, and he is warned beforehand that there is an area withitt which he must riot go, because it is already overcrowded, and it is an offence for him to go there, would you regard him as an undesirable in connection with legislation ?— I have not thought it out, but I should have thought it would riot be well for the country. 21648. How are you, .as a sanitary authority, going to deal effectually with the question of overcrowding if there is to be a continued influx, within the specific area ?—I think that must be left to your officers to see there is not overcrowding, and they will find themselves places outside this area where there is better capacity. 21649. If you convict A to-day of the offence of over- crowding, and you admit B from Russia to-morrow, it is a continuous thing ?--B must find somewhere else to gjo to, but I would not restrict him. B finds out that he cannot remain there, and therefore he would not come. 21650. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You must convict A too, or the common landlord of A and B ?—-Yes, 21651. (Mr. Vallance.) We have had specific evidence .as to the small number of alien immigrants who come upon our Poor Law 1—Yes. 21652. I suppose you would say generally the effect on the English Poor Law is relatively very small ?— Very small indeed. I daresay you have had the report for 1902 of the Whitechapel Union, 21653. Yes, we haive had that $—I have also the return of the number of Jews chargeable to the White- chapel Infirmary on the 25th March of this year. I firid there were 22 in the infirmary of the Whitechapel Union chargeable, which, according to the present clerk's note, is rather in excess of the usual figure. The number of inmates we have in the infirmary is 552, therefore out of 552 there are only 22 Jews; some of those no doubt would be aliens, and some would be born in England. 21654. You have no information as to what proportion of that 22 are in the maternity ward ?—No, but I can only say this, that although they are reckoned as aliens, some years ago, when I was chairman of the Conserva- tive Association of the Whitechapel Division I took the number who had been in England a number of years, although not naturalised, off the list, and they after- wards became aliens in the list, although they had been here a number of years. ■ 21655. The term " alien " in connection with those figures means persons who are born abroad?—They might have been born abroad, but they have been here a number of years, and not naturalised, therefore they would still be called aliens. Then, with respect to the workhouse, we had 16 in the workhouse on the 25th Mar^h of this year. Out of those 16 in the workhouse there were 10 children and six adults, and some of those adults were old people of 88, 78, 72, and so on. That is out of a total of 590. 21656. Does that include any deserted females 7^—Yen. 21657. Do you know how many?—Yes, there wpt© adopted cases—a child deserted and' so on, and also the mother who had been deserted, but we find after a time the husband generally sends for that woman, and takes her out. Therefore, out of the 16 that we have in the workhouse, we have only five out of 590. 21658. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is where the hus- band has gone to America Yes, or some other part; we do not know where. The Jewish Board of Guardians i do not give them relief at all, so they come into our782 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. union.'. Therefore, out of 590 we only halve 16. So far J. Harrisk as the workhouse is concerned, it shows the aliens are r —— not sent into the workhouse, and we have. 14 able-bodied 'May 1903: men in the whole of the workhouse, and out of those 14, "* l"lf1 although classified ab.le-bodied, we have not got four who can do a day's work. I might also say as showing these people have had no effect on the Poor Law, that in Mr. Vallance's time, 30 years ago, we used to give something like £6,000 in outdoor relief, and last year our outdoor relief did not exceed £40. That shows that the aliens have had no effect on the Poor Law administration. 21659. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is that at all an excep- tion ?—Yes. 21660. {Major Evans-Crordon.) Surely all that is due to changes in administration brought about by Mr. Yallance ?—I am only showing that, as far as the aliens who are in Whitechapel are concerned, they have bad no effect on the Poor Law administration. 21661. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We have had that very often?—Yes. 21662. {Mr. Vallance.) We have had a great deal of evidence with regard to the general morality among the aliens. Is there anything special you have to say on that point?—I can only say thie morality of the dis- trict of the borough of Stepney, and I speak principally of Whitechapel and St. George's, which I knew many years ago, is quite different now to what it was in former years. I remember the time of the "Jolly Sailors " and the " Brown Bear," and there was a place called Glass- house Yard, bordered on one side by Royal Mint Street, and East Smithfield, which we represented to the old Metropolitan Board of Works to clear. The death rate in that district was 52 in 1,000, which shows the differ- ence in the class there then. At the present time the death rate in the East End of London is not as much as it is in the other parts of London. 21663. Putting it shortly, you say the morality of the East End of London has vastly improved?—Oh, yes. There are some foreign prostitutes down in the East End of London, but in my candid opinion they have come from the West End of London. They have passed their youth, and they have gone to the East End of London to a very large extent. 21664. Several witnesses have testified to the bitter- ness of feeling between the native and the alien popu- lation ?—I must say the English and the aliens live on the most friendly terms together. There is hardly a charity, whether it is to build a mission room to a church or any other thing, that we find the aliens who can afford it do not contribute their amounts to these institutions. If it was not for the aliens and the sons of aliens, who have large factories in the district, and who employ a great number of Christian girls and men, there would be no employment for them at all. These aliens and sons of aliens have some of the largest fac- " tories in the East End, and they employ any number of Christians as well as Jewish people. I may say where the English girls and the Jewesses work together the tidiness of the Christian girls is much improved through being in connection with these alien girls, particularly those who have been educated in our schools here in England. 21665. You have had a long experience of the con- ditions of the East End, and you have no doubt been brought face to face with this problem, of alien immigra- tion. Is there any special direction in which in your judgment we should look for a remedy?—Yes, I was very pleased to hear Dr. Hope's evidence this morning. He said that before these people embarked on ships going to America they are inspected as to whether they are capable or whether they are desirable, a,nd whether they are physically fit to go. That really comes under the Merchants Shipping Act. All steerage passengers leaving England must be examined by some medical officer or by somebody for the Board of Trade, They have certain powers—I think it is under the 307th section—to order anybody on shore. Now, if we could in any way pass such a law to the effect that we would not allow any steerage passengers to< land here unless they went under such examination at the port of em- barkation, as they' have to here, it would be a good thing. There is no reason why our vice-consuls should not examine them, and under the Merchants Shipping Act there should be power to object to those' people who are going in that vessel, coming to England. ' I should also insist tha't'those vessels should be sub- ject to regulations. Our doctor from the Port Sanitary Authority gave his evidence here to show the condi- tions under which the immigrants come over here, anck I say that there should be the same cubic feet space - for each passenger on these ships as we insist on witk,. regard to our own ships here. I want the same ftaw as there is for the people leaving the Russian or German ports. We have had the evidence with respect~ to Hamburg, and so on. Why is it? Because the shipping agents there will not issue their passenger - tickets to undesirables, and therefore that explains the small number that get refused. If anything could be - dome in that way, the same as under our own Merchant Shipping Act, and we could say, "We cannot allow these passengers to land unless they have what we call a clean bill of health, and they should be examined . by our vice-consul or some other person at the port: of embarkation." I think that would entirely pre- - vent a great number coming here, and I do not see, if there is any doubt about it, why they should not have some evidence of character. If a young man wants to go to Durban on any of those places, he has . to get a paper signed saying he is a respectable man, and he will not be a charge on the community. I cannot: shut my eyes to the fact that the Jewish Board of ' Guardians repatriated in less than three years over 7,000 people, and therefore I say those 7,000 were too many to be here at all. At the present time we get imbeciles, we get blind people, and I am sorry to say even a young woman, not 16 years of age, had not been a fortnight or three weeks before she was confined in our infirmary. Those are things which I think shouM ' be put a stop to at the port of embarkation. My reason for coming here was to see whether this good feeling " between the aliens and the English could not continue - in the East End of London, and I think it can only continue if there is something done in respect of this excessive number of very undesirable ones who are coming here at the present time. 21666. These cases that you refer to have been very rare?—I will not say very rare. 21667. But speaking of the instance you gave of the young girl of 16 years of age, and the blind persons, . and the imbeciles, those cases are rare?—They are not. numerous. 21668. Then your condition of health would apply to the freedom from disease and the condition of health ? ' —Yes. 21669. How would you adjudicate at the port of em- barkation with regard to character and criminality ?---- So far as character is concerned, I think if a man has . got his eyes he can nearly tell. Let me say that I Was at Leman Street just outside the Jewish home the - other day, and I found that there were a number of people round the building. I went in to inquire. It . appears that in Africa they refused admission to a , number of aliens. I think it was the Union Castle line, who immediately returned the money of those immigrants. Those immigrants were such that any- country would be proud of. They were well clad, good: sturdy men, but with regard to the number that have been coming here, anybody could tell, I think, and if there is any doubt about them they could be asked . for some character from the Raibbi of the town where • they resided ; but, at all events, they should have some - character before they are allowed to land here. 21670. Have you thought out at all the practicability of the machinery which would effectively deal with ■ these cases at the foreign port of embarkation?-—It would be the same as we have here. The medical officer - of the Board of Trade, I think, can order anybody ashore the same as you heard from Dr. Hope. Here they have not only their own medical officer, but the American representative is here. 21671. May I take it that you are not in favour of the exclusion from this country, but are in favour of the machinery at the port of departure preventing the sailing of these people?—Yes, and if that was done the- numbers would decrease to a very large extent. 21672. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Why so, if the number of undesirables is very small ?—I do not say the undesir- ables are small. I say the physically unfit are small. 21673. {Lord Bothschild.) You say that restriction at the port of departure would restrict the number who come here?-—Yes. 21674. The American laws of immigration have been • very severe, and they have only increased it?—Yes?MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 783 «S)ut so far, that is a different class altogether. There -is no doubt with regard to the number who are coming that the (Shipping Companies in Russia have agents in <*every little town touting for these men to take pas- sages to London. If it was to get reported that they -could not come here without undergoing some inves- tigation, there is no doubt there would be a great ^difference. 21675. (/Sir Kenelm Digby.) What is your evidence :that there are a number of people who would fall within your category of undesirables and would be rejected ? You did not quite follow out Mr. Yallance's -question. Take health to begin with. What evidence . have you that there are a number of people coming ..here in such a state of health as to be liable to rejec- tion if you had a competent medical examination?— I think there is a great number, although they have mot come under the notice of the Board of Guardians. 21676. We have had a great deal of medical evidence, ..and we have not been able to trace much disease of ■ '.hat kind imported ?—It. has come under my knowledge. I am five days a week for nine months out of the year down the East End of London, therefore I am round there and see a great deal more than those gentlemen who pay a flying visit. 21677. Can you say from your own knowledge that there is a considerable number of people who are im- ported in this way from Hamburg, Bremen, and Libau, ^who come over here in a state of ill-health of such a kind as to be a danger to the community?—I think so. I think a great number are going fast into a consump- tion 'and that kind of thing. If ,anybody goes down there, as I do, they would see a great number of them. 21678. I want to know what you base it on. Evidence has been given very much the other way here both by the Jewish authorities and by the medical authorities ? ——My evidence is based on being amongst them so much and being with them. The number of cases of . medical relief is not great, because there is nothing to speak of* according to the figures. With regard to old age, -anybody can go down Wentworth Street and ^roulston Street to-day and see a lot of men of 60 years of age and more with a basket in front -of them. You find a number of consumptives, and a stammering class of men. They are not men who you would say could go into the infirmary or that kind of thing. My object is, if I possibly can, to keep this good feeling which has been existing between the aliens and the English people in the East End, and I am afraid if this goes on in the way it is going, on that good feeling will not continue. 21679. (Mr. Vallance.) You were, if you are not now, • on the I>eptford Cattle Market Committee ?—Yes; I "used to be on the Deptford Cattle Market Committee. 21680. You have had considerable experience in con- -m©ction with that committee?—Yes. 21681. Can you give us any information as to the cattle men, and whether the arrangements that are made for the care of cattle coming over to- this oountrv are such as to dump down on our shores some of the very worst class of men from America and Argentina?— ' There is no< doubt the character of those men who come • over by the cattle boats is not that which we should wish, but no sooner do they land than they get dis- persed, and you cannot understand where they go to. Directly a ship is alongside these men get dispersed and • disappear. 21682. Take Deptford. How many ships would enter the dock there ?—I could not tell you that. 21683. But if 400, or 500, or 600 of these men are • dumped down in this country, is that a desirable arrange- mem or an undesirable arrangement?—Undesirable. 21684. Whether there are a few or many is the con- dition of things such as to demand a remedy ?—I hardly know what remedy you could have, because a good many of them afterwards go back again, and work their pas- sage out. 21685. The* the net result is not so large?—Not so Harge. 21686. (Lord Bvihschild.) You say that you would ex- Mr. elude all undesirables ?—Yes. J. Harrw. 21687. Would you mind giving the Commission your 7 May 1903. definition of undesirables ?—I think anybody would in- ***+. elude imbeciles. 21688. There are very few of those?—I am sorry to say they have been on the increase. Then take, for instance, widows. 21680. You would exclude widows?—Widows with a number of children, unless there are some means of sub- sistence. They add to the overcrowding, and I can give you an instance of that with respect to the School Board, and as to the reason why parents do not send their children to school. We had one widow with several children before us, and we asked what she paid for rent. She said her rent was so much. " Surely," we said, " you cannot pay that." She said she let part of her room to somebody else, which shows the disadvantage of having people here of that kind. 21690. Then besides widows and imbeciles, whom else would vou exclude ?—Those of a, bad character. 21691. We will go to bad characters. How are you going to define the bad charactersi that, you are going to exclude ?—I think, if we possibly could have it, there might be the same arrangement, as I said before, which exists with regard to anybody going to Durban, and any part of Africa. You have to get a certificate of character. 21692. But those who went out to Durban, and who were excluded, you said were sturdy men?—That was in another part of Africa; that was in Cape Town. 21693. You would exclude all those who you think (barring the imbeciles and widows) would not get on well here?—Yes. 21694. I want to ask you generally, do you think that the number, of alien immigrants who do not get on here is greater in proportion than the number of English people who leave England and come back again because they cannot get on in their new homes?—I think the numbers are very few who come back here; I am not acquainted with the figures. 21695. They are very large ?—I have not come across so many in our district. 21696. They would not leave Stepney. Then you were asked bv Mr. Vallance whether it would not be advisable to close Stepney against new incomers, and if I under- stood you rightly the effect of closing Stepney against incomers would create a great deal of irritation in the rest of the country ?—Yes. 21697. Have you considered what the effect would be upon the fate of the poor creatures in Roumania and Poland and Russia, and Finland and elsewhere, if it went forth that there were very restrictive laws passed in England?—I have thought of that, so far as they are concerned, but, as an Englishman, I am bound to think of what is for the benefit of our country. 21698. Have you read in the papers the account of the disturbances in a part of Russia, where a great many Jews were killed, with regard to which it is alleged, and I believe alleged very truly, that it has got about in that part of the world that there are to be restrictive laws passed here, which has created a very bitter feeling, and has been the cause of the massacre of hundreds of people?—I have read of the massacre you speak of, but I have not read the reason which you have .stated to-day. 21699. You would acknowledge with me, I suppose, that if there was a great persecution in Poland, Fin- land, Russia., and elsewhere, the generous feeling here would be to tear up the laws and welcome all these refugees1 as we have done over and over again ?—That is a very good feeling so far as feeling, is concerned, but, as I said before, I must look to see whether it would'be for the benefit of this country or not, although it might be a great hardship on those people. 21700. Surely you recollect what took place in 1848 and 1849, when the brewers, Messrs. Barclay, Perkins and Co., welcomed the refugees ?—Yes, I recollect that.784 EiQYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION . Mr. 1\ Q'(srt;ady\ 7 May 1903. Mr. Thomas Oj Grady, recalled. 21701. {Major Evans-Gorclon.) I understand there is some particular point you want to speak to with regard tb> the action of English working men in the shops?—• That is so. It is with regard to an allegation made by Mr. Isidore Solomons. In the first place., he made a statement here which, I think, is very misleading, to this Commission, and should not b© allowed to go unless we give our version of the matter. Mr. Isidore Solomons, who was at one time in the Boot Union, st ated here that the reason the workers had reverted back to the home gystem and sweating was on account of the treatment that the Jewish people had received from English workers. I may say there is not one single atom of truth iri, that. I have never heard of any disturbance or any feeling in the matter with regard to our Jewish friends that would lead them to go to that extent. We feel thoughout the whole of this matter that the real reason that o^r Jewish friends have been driven home again is by reason of the influx of the aliens into< the East End of London. Naturally, they come there with the idea of getting work, and they have to work. Our state- ment is that in no shop or firm have they ever been ill-treated, but rather the hand of friendship has always "Been held out to them, and we think that statement should not be made even in justice to our Jewish friends (and we still have plenty with us), and also to the English- men in general. Again, Mr. Solomons mentioned that tihe s&b-division of labour was brought about by the Jewish people, which enabled them to do twice as much work as •they formerly did. I might state that the sub-division of labour was recognised by the Employers' and Work- men's Association in. 1890, and provision was made so that sub-division of labour could apply. Mr. Solomons states again that in these matters he has had the full confidence of the London Trades Council with regard to their system of going on. I might say that in 1901 the East End workers had a lock-out, or a strike, amongst the foreigners, and the English unions did not interfere in any shape or form, although they were importuned by several of the East-End masters to send workmenjL down to work there. We refused that. Mr. Isidore - Solomons, having said that the ill-treatment they re- ceived from the English in their workshops was the- cause of that, I may say that since 1901 he has ap- proached members of the English Union, asking for their assistance again to bring about better conditions for our Jewish friends. There is one thing I am here for, and that is to see that no injustice should be done- to either side, and also to see that this Commission should not be misled. Mr. Isidore Solomons is right out of the matter altogether now, and it is the opinion of our* members, as a whole, that the poor unfortunate worker in the East End is perhaps not quite so much to be blamed as he is to be pitied, seeing he has no alternative- but to go under in the matter of wages. It has been reported here that the work is not done for less. We have positive proof of that, inasmuch as the bother they had down in the East-End was to raise their wages, or to bring them somewhat up to the English rate, and at that time they were working, as I am prepared to prove, at as much as 50 per cent, under the English workmen's wages for the same class of work. The only way they could possibly live at all on that is (it is patent to the whole of the members of my society) by reason of , the fact that they work at home under the conditions, as Mr. - Solomons himself has stated, of the sweating system, and that is what we object to. It is a system which we- at one time thought was rubbed out, as it were, and that the factory hours and conditions of labout were- accepted in the East End, and we were in hopes that that was going to prevail. 21702. You say that arrangement was not brought about by the ill-treatment of the Jewish workers by the English workers in any shape or form ?—No. 21703. That is the main thing you wish to say?—We have never had any complaint; we do not know of any case, and we are prepared to refer to any employer or • workman on this matter. Mr. Lewis Lyons, re-called. Mr. L. (Witness.) I have been present during the last lew Lyons. sittings of this Commission, and have heard Mr. Wright (the manager of Charles Baker and Co.) and Mr. Poli- coff (the secretary of the Manchester Tailors' Union), and other gentlemen give evidence with reference to the tailoring trade. They stated that the wages for tailors' machinists and pressers were between 8s. and 10s. a day all the year round. If that statement goes forth uncontradicted it will have a very serious effect on the tailoring industry, and will tend to increase the immigration, because these statements were printed m the "Jewish Express," and two columns were devoted to the statement made by Mr. Policoff about these wages: As this paper is sent abroad, the people who read it will see these statements, and will, no doubt, come here in large numbers, hoping to receive the same wages. I believe the statement is very misleading. Mr. Policoff stated that the wages were from 8s. to 10s. a day, and I am going to hand in a bill which is signed by him. 21704. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Mr. Policoff said: " The wages may be classified as follows : —Machinists and pressers, 8s. to 10s. per day " ?—That is the state- ment he ipade. 21705. Then he says tailors' first-class men get from 8s. to 10s. 6d. per day, tailors' second-class men from 5s. to 7s. per day; seamers or second-class machinists from 4s. to 6s. 6d. per day. Then he says their average earnings all the year round may be estimated at. 6s. a.day, or 36s. per week?—I am going to hand in a bill issued by Mr. Policoff himself showing the deplor- able condition of the Manchester tailoring trade. This is a bill issued on December 27th, 1902, and in order that you may get exactly the true meaning of that bill, I have translated it, in order to show you that the state of affairs as mentioned by Mr. Policoff is abso- lutely untrue. These bills are signed by Mr. Policoff himself. 21706. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) Was Mr. Policoff speak- ing of Manchester?—Yes. This is a bill, as I say, issued by Mr. Policoff himself, showing the deplorable condition of the Manchester tailors only as far back as December 27th last year. This is what he says in-. the bill, which to my mind contradicts his own state- ment that he made here the other day: — " MANCHESTER JEWISH TAILORS', MACHINISTS' AND PRESSERS' TRADE UNION. " Labour Hall, Bury New Road, Manchester. "To all the Jewish Tailors in Manchester. "Fellow Workers,— "The insecurity of your existence should have taught you long ago how important it is for you to become members of a trade union. With the ap- proach of the bitter slack season the security for a living becomes greater. Hundreds of Jews are thrown out of employment, and are compelled to go begging to the Board of Guardians or in the Houses. Many of you who are too proud to do this become almost, choked for want of food, and live ini hopes £hat the times will change. That is how the years roll, on with- out any hopes or signs of improvement "There is only one way in which your conditions , may be improved, and that is by joining the trades union. " Then you will be able to obtain better wages in the busy season, and perhaps you will have some- thing to live on in the slack season. "We now give the Manchester tailors an oppor- tunity to talk matters over, and for this purpose we - call a public meeting in our hall on Saturday, 27th . December, at three o'clock, when the well-known speaker and organiser, Lewis Lyons, of London, will address you. " The Chair will be taken by Mr. J. Harker, Vice- President, Manchester and Salford Trades Council,,, supported by George Tabbron, Esq.,President, Man- chester and Salford Trades Council; T. Fox, General ■ Secretary, the British Labour Amalgamation; E. H.. Parkinson, Esq., Chairman, Fair Contracts Com- mittee; J. F. Thompson, Esq., Secretary, Life As-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 785 surance Agents; M. Zeitlin, late Secretary, Jewish Tailors; 1). Policoff, General Secretary, Man- chester Jewish Tailors' Machinists and Pressers' Trade Union. " AH persons engaged in the tailoring trade should not - -miss the opportunity of hearing Mr. Lewis Lyons. s "D* Policoff, Secretary." I merely put in this bill to show that the statement Jie made about the high wages is altogether wrong and very misleading to this Commission. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I do not see that it shows that at all. I do not see any contradiction. {Major Evans-Gor^don.) My view is that the impres- sion, conveyed to anybody's mind—certainly to. mine— was that the condition of affairs in the Manchester tailoring industry was one of extreme prosperity; there was a slack season, no doubt, but the wages earned in the busy time were fully enough to keep the people in prosperity; and not only that, but Mr. Poli- coff directly, in reply to a question of mine, which I can easily refer to, said there was room for many more people , than they had already there. If that is so, then tihis, bilil, which I have only this moment read, seems to be a very extraordinary comment on Mr. Policoff's evidence. (Sir Men elm Digly.) It will go upon the notes. (Major Evarvsr-Goitilon.) It is as new to me as to any other member of the Commission. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) This is a stirring appeal to them to join the trades union. (Witness.)He points out the horrible condition of the trade; (Sir Kenelm, Digly.) There is such a thing as rhetoric. (Majpr Evans-Gordon.) Mr. Policoff came here and told us that the condition of the Jewish tailors in Man- chester was one of perfect prosperity and happiness and, good wages, and so on, and there was room for any amount more, of them. He expressly answered that question; of mine. Now I see he says himself that hun- dreds of Jews are thrown out of employment, and are compelled to go back to the Board of Guardians. (Sir Kenelm Digly.) It is quite fair argument, but it does not sem to me to amount to a definite contra- diction. It is, no doubt, conceived from rather a dif- ferent point of view than his evidence was here. (Witness.) His statement would have a very serious effect on the trade. 21707. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is one. other point you want to> make I understand, namely, that the publication of these extremely prosperous conditions abroad is likely .to attract many more people to Man- chester and other towns ?—M>any thousands. 21708. In that way it is likely to be a disadvantage? —Great. 21700; (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We will put this on the mpte, and that will be an antidote ?—Yes. The same thing happened with regard to the witness who gave evidence with regard to the West End, who said it was all rosy and a paradise. 1 have here another bill which was issued two or three weeks ago' just to show there is more sweating done in private houses than what there is in the East End. They have also issued a bill calling the attention of the trade® unionists, and also1; pointing out the deplorable conditions and low wages earned. That also contradicts the evidence of the witness Mr. Fersht. The following. is the bill: —- " JEWISH TAILORS OF THE WEST END, AWAKE! " Everyone should attend a great mass meeting which will take place on Saturday, the 18th April, 1903» at 4 o'clock, in Craven Hall, Fouberts Place, Regent Street, W. " This meeting is called under the auspices of the West End Tailors' Union and Benefit Society. " We suppose you would like to know what we de- mand. Then listen. _" We demand, firstly, that our masters shall recog- nise us as workmen. They should understand that we are not mere machines to make profit out of,, hut we are human -beings who require to live in the world, to work, as human beings should work, regular hours, and to earn with our work a respectable living. To carry this into effect we must be well organised. Unity is strength. If our masters will tell us that their prices are so low that they cannot pay us for our work to which we are entitled, then let- them work hand in hand with Us!, to fight against the shopkeepers, who make enormous profits out df Our labour. In short, we must not remain idle; we must organise for a double purpose. First, to prevent our trade from going'down lower than it is; second, not to give the Englishmen an opportunity of saying that we are ruining the tailoring trade. Don't forget to come to this meeting. If the workers will only have the sense and go- the right way to work, then we can improve our position. " The following speakers will address the meeting: Chairman, S. Myers, J. Finn, Hayer, A. Singer, M. Roth, Levy, and others. All are Welcome. " Fellow Workers,—Our patience is exhausted ; we can no longer work on Government work at such low prices, at which our wives and families are starving. 11 We appeal to all workers who work at St. Mary Street and Hanbury Street factories to attend a meet- ing to-night (Tuesday, 24th March, 1903), to a shop meeting in the " Somerset Arms," 80, New Road, E., when we hope the Military Union will help us. "By order of the workers of St. Mary Street and Hanbury Street Factory." (Mr. Vallance.) Mr. Policoff quoted the rate of wages, and were not they the rate of the trades union wages P (Major Evams-Gordon.) Yes. (Mr. Vallance.) Does Mr. Lyons contradict that state- ment, or does he say it is really inaccurate ? (Witness-) My contention is that those wages which* Mr. Policoff gave on paper do not actually exist, and how does be reconcile the wages which he stated the* other day with this bill which he issued only in December ? 21710. (Mr. Vallance.) Are they the rates of wages, that the Trade Union recognise?—There is no recog- nised rate of wages the same as there is in the Amal- gamated Society of Tailors. You may work for what, you can get, and what the Union can settle. 21711. You mean these figures were given in such a., form and way to the Commission as to lead to the im- pression that it was a prosperous trade, whereas it is, not?—Yes, that is so. Mr. L. Lyons. 7 May 1903. Mr, F. E. Eddis called ; and Examined, 21712. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You are the Secretary of this Commission ?—Yes. 21713. You have made two journeys—one to Liver- pool, Grimsby, and Hull, and the other to Holland—and you have made two reports on those journeys?—I have. The reports are as follows.: — ' Royal Commission on Alien Immigration. I. I ^hav0 the honoulr .to present a report respecting a I have paid, accompanied by my assistant, Mr. Perretijt, to Grimsby, Hull, and Liverpool. The object of my visit was twofold—to collect infor- 6144. mation respecting the movements of transmigrants, and to ascertain, so far as was possible, the effect of alien immigration upon provincial towns. My report with reference to the latter object is necessarily, at the pre- sent, imperfect, seeing that the towns which are imme- diately affected by a ceaseless inflow of foreigners are Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, and, in a lesser degree, such towns as Bradford and Sheffield. Introductions were kindly furnished by Sir Kenelm Digby of the Home Office, by Mr. Howell of the Board of Trade, and by Mr. Henderson of the Custom House. I found these introductions of the utmost value, assuring to me most cordial assistance from those best able to provide it. My first visit was to Grimsby, a port at which aliens 5 G Mr. F. E. Eddis.786 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION I Mr. ¥ E. arrive in large numbers. I do not propose to give Eddis. statistics, as these ar© furnished regularly by the Board —— of Trade, who publish them not only in their monthly 7 May 1903. return, but also to a. fuller extent in their " Annual Statistical Report." * Grimsby, as a fishing port, attracts aliens. The fish- ing boats are chiefly steamers, the old sailing boats having been bought by Ostend fishermen. They are about 600 in number, and are owned by companies which do a large but, if statements are to be believed, not a particularly prosperous business. Foreign seamen began to come to Grimsby after the strike of fishermen in 1901 > and have since joined the boats as members of the crews in large numbers. The superintendent of Mer- cantile Marine has forwarded to me, since my return, a list of fishing vessels with mixed crews of British and foreign seamen. The list comprises 33 vessels which are manned by 1,023 British and 134 foreign seamen. The foreign seamen are very unpopular with the English sailors, some of the latter even refusing to join if foreigners are employed. When I was in the office of the superintendent of the Mercantile Marine a crew was being engaged, and one Englishman refused to join on the ground that two of the crew were foreigners. The Chief Constable says that the foreign seamen are " fairly quiet, and can in no sense be said to belong to the criminal class; but that they drink." They are principally Swedes. Very few aliens, other than seamen, remain in Grimsby. A colony of Jews is settled in one part of the town, but these appear to be chiefly old residents, more or less prosperous. The Clerk to the Guardians says that they do not come upon the rates. This statement is confirmed by the rector, the Rev. E. Bullook, who further asserts that the presence of foreigners is not felt as a grievance in the town. Some of the wealthy tradesmen, who occupy high municipal positions, are themselves Jews, resident in Grimsby. The Clerk to the Guardians and the Chief Constable both state that a practice is constantly adopted by the Hamburg authorities which causes great indignation in the town. An alien by reason of his undesirability may be induced to return to Hamburg, but on his arrival at that port permission to land is refused to him, unless ihe can show that he has sufficient means, and the intention to proceed out of the German terri- tory. Thus an alien, against his own will, is landed at Grimsby in a penniless condition, either to be again returned to Hamburg with means sufficient to fulfil the conditions of landing, or to swell the ranks of the desti- tute pauper aliens in this country. Hence we have not only America, but also the Continent, returning un- desirables to our shores. The following is a typical instance: — In August last a young German American, a watch- maker by trade, who was suffering from nervous debility arid had been in the asylum, was, contrary to his own wish, put on board as. Nottingham when leaving the port of Hamburg for Grimsby. He arrived here penniless, lived for a fortnight upon charity, and fell at length into the hands of the Guardians. The Board, rather than have him on their hands, subscribed a sum of money sufficient to enable him not only to return to Hamburg, but also, in order that the German police might not again return him to Grimsby, to proceed iurther. This instance serves to show how the foreign police, protected by their own immigration laws, take advantage of the absence of such laws in this country. Grimsby is emphatically a town of transit, not only for trade, but also for passengers. As a town, it has a straggling and deserted appearance, the only signs of activity being at the docks and wharves. Possessing the largest fish market in the world, it naturally attracts those engaged in the fish trade. This trade appears to be in the hands of federated companies rather than of individuals. Grimisby, therefore, offers to foreigners no inducements to settle, except for the purpose of join- ing the crews of the fishing boats. But as a high thoroughfare for passengers Grimsby has a direct bear- ing upon the question of alien immigration. Boats ariive from Hamburg, Antwerp, Esbjeg, Rotterdam, Malmo, and the Scandinavian ports. The docks and wharves practically belong to the Great Central Rail- way Company, which also owns several vessels. This company entirely undertakes the forwarding of immi- grants and transmigrants. It has built a very large shelter, in which the aliens are lodged until they are forwarded by train. The shelter consists of one huge room, capable of accommodating 200 or 300 persons, and of a few small detached rooms for second-class pas- sengers. As the men are not separated from the women, it must be regarded as a large waiting-room, each indi- vidual being provided with a mattress on which he can sleep. The shelter is under the care of Mr. and Mrs. Parser, who are employees of the Great Central Rail- way Company. I saw the shelter on the morning fol- lowing the arrival of a steamer from Hamburg, and, in spite of the fact that it had been used during the night, it had a general appearance of cleanliness. The fact that the alien passengers, when they have left the ship, absolutely pass out of the hands of the Government officials into those of private companies deserves special consideration. A steamer from Rotter- dam happened to arrive when I was visiting the docks. The steamer on arrival was at once boarded by a Cus- toms Preventive Officer. He demanded and received from the captain the alien list. This list was prepared by the steward of the steamer. It contained the names of 114 aliens, of whom 112 were transmigrants, two only, a Russian and a German, being immigrants. On receiv- ing this list the officer counted the foreigners. Having satisfied himself that the number on board corresponded with the number on the alien list, he allowed the pas- sengers to land, and they were at once conducted by Mr. Parker, the railway company's official, to the shelter. Here they remained until the following morning, when the train left for Liverpool. It must be noted that no medical officer met the boat, and that, as a. matter of fact, not one single step was taken to ascertain if any passenger was bringing disease into the country. The preventive officer may have asked if the general health was good, but no effective steps were taken to ascertain the existence of disease. A reference to the evidence of Dr. Williams, the port sanitary authority, will show the importance he attaches to symptoms which would alto- gether escape the notice of the ordinary man; but at Grimsby the condition of health in which aliens arrive is practically ignored. This absence of medical exam- ination is specially remarkable, because it will be seen afterwards that great care is taken at Liverpool, by means of two separate examinations, that no one carrying disease, infectious or otherwise, shall leave the country. A large number of immigrants arrive at Grimsby. They are of the poorest class and proceed chiefly to Man- chester, Leeds, and Glasgow. Sonne go to Glasgow via Liverpool, as this route can be effected at a cheaper rate than by proceeding direct. Some go to London. Those who go to London must not, however, be regarded as all immigrants. Mr. Parker, who superintends the movements of the aliens, informed me that when be arrives at Liverpool, having accompanied the aliens to this port, he constantly meets men and women sailing for America whom, on the preceding day, he forwarded to London. He sends a telegram to Mr. Somper, of the Jewish Shelter, informing him of the number so for- warded, and the time they will arrive. The object of this circuitous route will become clear when I deal later on with the evasions rendered necessary by the Con- ference and by the German regulations. Aliens from the Scandinavian ports, who are admittedly superior to all others who arrive at Grimsby, are almost entirely transmigrants, and invariably have through tickets. A considerable number, chiefly Scandinavians, also proceed to Southampton, en route to New York. Before I follow the passengers out of Grimsby I think it necessary to refer to three points which appear to me to be worthy of consideration by the Commission. (1) The steps taken to obtain particulars as to the aliens arriving are apparently, rather than really, satis- factory. They undoubtedly supply material for numerical statistics, but they are useless for the pur- pose of differentiating the various degrees and objects of the aliens when they arrive upon our shores. At Grimsby they are not even serviceable for the acquisi- tion of that information which the authorities with their limited powers are entitled to claim. Five docu- ments exist, each with a special purpose. (a) The Alien List, to show the number of aliens arriving. (b) The^ Report of the Customs Officer by means of which the Alien List may be checked with the Ship's Report, and which should therefore be independent of the Alien List. (c) The Special Report under the Customs General Order 22/1894 to supply to the Board of Trade general information in the event of the aliens being numerous (i.e., exceeding 30).MINTJTE3 OF EVIDENCE. 787 (d) The report showing the result of a special count (one vessel in ten). (e) The ship's report which is forwarded to the Custom House at Grimsby by the captain. A knowledge of the terms of the General Order 22/1894 (c) is necessary. In April, 1804, the Board of Customs issued a General Order, in which they directed their officers to ascertain from each alien, in the event of the total being numerous, his or her name, nationality, and country whence proceeding, and alfeo, as far as possible withouc tiie aicl of an interpreter, information as to his or her means, effects, arrangements for accommodation on landing, destination, etc. The Grimsby authorities put forward the great difficulty which would attend an inquiry into the means, etc., and forwarded to the Board of Trade a specimen form of a return, which merely stated the total number of aliens, their nationa- lities, and whither the transmigrants were bound, dividing the aliens into males, females, and children under 14. The Board of Trade replied that, so far as could be seen, the return was correctly filled. In October, 1900, the Board of Customs was informed by Mr. Hawkey, an officer of Customs stationed at Graves- end, after a visit which he had paid to Grimsby in accordance with instructions received from his Board, at the request of the Board of Trade, that the addi- tional information as to means, effects, etc., was not obtained at Grimsby. A corespondence ensued between the Board of Customs and the Collector of Grimsby. The latter forwarded to the Board of Customs a copy of the specimen form which had been sanctioned by the Board of Trade in 1894. No further action was, under the circumstances, taken by the Board of Customs. The consequence of this decision is that no special report as to means, effects, etc., is made at Grimsby. On my visit I further dis- covered that so far from the report (c) being, as was intended, an additional and independent check upon the Alien list, it is merely a copy. Its use is, there- fore, nil. The terms of the General Order are better observed at Hull, but the fact that the volume of the poorer transmigrants is greater at Grimsby than at Hull makes it more to be deplored that a special im- munity is granted to the former port, especially since the year 1895, the year of the Conference. Thus we have (a) the Alien List, (b) a copy of the same list made by the officer who receives the list and not from the ship's report, (c), a list which, by reason of the sanc- tioned omissions, is practically a duplicate of (b) and (<$), which should, if (c) were returned according to the original intention, be needless, except in the case of vessels bringing fewer than 3D aliens. Though ag a matter of fact column 3 of {&), which is headed " No. of aliens according to ship's report," is really a copy of the Alien List ; it is checked with the ship's report by Mr. Crowther, the chief clerk at the Custom House. Thus the information is gained that the Alien List agrees with the ship's report. (2) Interpreter.—The General Order gives instruction that, if possible, information is to be obtained without the aid of an interpreter. At Grimsby this instruction causes a delegation of the duties of the Custom House officers upon one who is in no way under the jurisdic- tion of the Board. Mr. Parker, who is employed by the Great Central Railway Company to receive the aliens upon their arrival, to take charge of them in the shelter, and to conduct them to Liverpool if in large numbers, wears a cap on which is inscribed "interpreter." But it must be noted that he is not concerned with the aliens until they have left the ship and passed out of the hands of the Custom House authorities. He has previously received a notice from the agents abroad stating the number of aliens who will arrive, which notice he hands to the railway company. He there- fore can in no sense be said to assist the Custom House officer in gaining such information from the aliens as would enable the latter to make a proper return (c). (3) Lack of Continuity.—I have dealt at some length with the returns, because the present system is incon- sistent with a continuity which, in my opinion, should exist. At present, no sooner do a number of aliens arrive, than they are reported to the Board of Trade, with the sole object of furnishing numerical statistics. If this be the sole object, the information originally demanded by the order (c) is superfluous. Nor is the contention that this is the sole object merely hypothe- tical. The whole procedure tends in this direction. The aliens until they leave the ship at the port of 6144. arrival are regarded as a body concerning whom special jgm statistics are required j but immediately upon landing Eddis. they become, so far as the Government authorities are-- concarned, so many individuals to be included after- 7 May 1903- wards in another set of statistics, which disregard the question of nationality, viz., those of the railway passenger traffic. Yet they are not immigrants, as in London, who, when they leave the ship, become at once merged in the general population. Their move- ments remain still capable of the closest inspection, and continue so until they arrive at their destination. In the case of transmigrants the railway company for- wards them to Liverpool under the guidance of a special officer, who hands them to the agents of the Shipping Companies, who in their turn do not lose sight of them until they have embarked for America. In the case of immigrants, the railway company forward them to their destination, also, though perhaps in a lesser degree, in a corporate capacity. Their officer knows whither they are bound, and could provide statistics showing how many proceed to Leeds, how many to Manchester, how many to Glasgow, and how many to London. What occurred to me very strongly when I saw the whole procedure in respect of the aliens who arrived d / tii3 steamer was (1) if the Alien List, or any other of the documents, was not deemed as having, except for statistical purposes, served its purpose, so soon as the aliens have left the ship ; (2) but if, on the other hand, a copy thereof was given to an officer of the Board of Trade ; (3) and if this officer performed the function now undertaken by the railway company's official, three beneficial results would accrue : (1) The Board of Trade would have a greater knowledge of the volume of transmigration from the Eastern ports, (2) would have a surer means of ascertaining how the immigrants who arrived at these ports dispersed themselves, and (3) by being brought into closer connection with the elaborate organisation of the various agencies, would be able to ascertain the evasive tactics which, -although legitimate in a commercial sense, now greatly hamper official in- telligence. Such a continuity of supervision would require a strict adherence to the General Order, and might necessitate a withdrawal of the permission iu» return immigrants in bulk. I now continue the journey of the aliens. Mr. Parker, having provided for them during the night, or until the train leaves, generally accompanies them to Liver- pool. With those whose destination is any town within^ the United Kingdom l»e does not much concern him- self, except to see that the necessary instructions at-v given which will ena/ble them to complete their journey.- He wires to Mr. Somper the number of those who are bound for London, as previously stated. The baggage of the transmigrants is, of course, under the control of the authorities. Some bring very little, but the Scandinavians show by their baggage not only their respectability, but also a relative prosperity. Upon arrival at Liverpool they are met by agents of the ship- ping companies—the Cunard, the Dominion, the White Star, the Allan, the Beaver, and others. These agents apparently are not merely officials, but rather act the part of middlemen. They have lodgings all over the city into which the aliens are taken. One agent especiallyy. Heil'bron by name, does a very extensive business, owning about four or five large houses in Great George Square. He is specially connected with the Allan and Beaver Lines. The agents, having previously received notice of the aliens arriving, send a sufficient number of wagonettes to carry the aliens from the station to< the hotels or lodging houses. Here the aliens remain until the steamer sails. During their residence in the^ lodging houses they appear to be under a kind of dis- cipline, which is probably due to a feeling of dependence; upon these agents. They now undergo their first. medical examination by the Shipping Company's doctor,, each alien being carefully examined. The Shipping Companies assert that in the event of any alien having; a disease which disqualifies him from entry into the United States, or Canada, etc., he is returned to his? own country at the company's expense. This is dis- puted by some, especially by the Poor Law authorities and the Jewish Board of Guardians. Probably the statements of both are correct. The genuine trans- migrants brought over from Grimsby or Hull, or from the Tyne ports, who possess through tickets, are sent home by the companies, but the pseudo-emigrants, viz., those who, having recently arrived with tickets only for England, but who nevertheless are at once forwarded by agents, are treated as emigrants with whom the Com- 5^2788 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : mr. F. Ens .Eddis. 7 !May 1903. i paiiies have no official concern. The latter arrive chiefly from London, and are met at the station at .Liverpool, whence they are conducted to the ship. They have undergone no preliminary examination by the • ship's doctor, but when they arrive on board they are examined by the medical authority of the Board of Trade. If he rejects any one of these on the ground of disease, e-9-> trachoma or favus, this man being . regarded only as an emigrant has to take care of him- self, the Shipping Companies admitting no responsi- bility. He therefore, if he has no means, must have resort either to the Jewish Board of Guardians or to the Poor Law Guardians. Here it is necessary to consider the t6rms of the Con- ; iereiice with a view to discover the motives which cause , >. so large an amount of irregular traffic. The German and the English Transatlantic Lines were engaged for a long time in a fierce struggle for the alien traffic, each adopting the usual process of rate-cutting. At length, in the year 1895, fares had reached a wholly unremunerative figure, and the Shipping Companies saw , that only by a mutual agreement could they hope to obtain an advantage from a trade which was. in volume increasing year by year. They saw that the traffic could be divided into two distinct sections—on the one hand, that from the Scandinavian countries; and on the other, j; that -from , Russia., Poland, Germany, and Southern Europe. Each of these traffics was worth capture, if it could be enjoyed without interference. The German Companies, therefore, agreed to- abandon the Scandi- navian traffic, on condition that the English Companies would be content with an infinitesimal proportion (viz., 6 per cent.) of the traffic from the German ports. To such an agreement the following safeguarding condi- tions. were necessary: — (1) That the English Companies should refuse to ship any transmigrant who had not been six weeks in Eng- land. The object of this clause, from a German point of view, is apparent, as no alien, when he had once made up his mind to proceed to America, would select a route ^which involved a delay in transitu of so long a period. (2) But in the event of any evasion of this condition, -and in order that the German Companies should reap some benefit frpm aliens, who, in spite of the Confer- Increase - - - 3,6£ >9. From Bremen. 1895. 1901. To London ^ 3,553 5,698 „ Hull - - - - - 533 777 „ Tyne Ports - 27 3 „ Leith and Grangemouth 22 11 4,135 6,489 From Hamburg. Increase - - - 2354. Total Increase - - - 6053. The above is a comparative statement of the number of aliens, not described in the alien lists to be en route, on board ships which arrived in the United Kingdom from the German ports, Bremen and Hamburg, during the year 1895 before the agreement between the English and German companies came into effect, and during, the year 1901. Hull, it will be seen, alone shows a reverse picture, viz., a decrease since the year: 1895 of those from Ham- burg " not stated to be en, route " ; but it must be noted that the Hull companies do not cater for the German traffic, all their steamers which are suitable being used in the Scandinavian trade, which is very extensive. These Scandinavian aliens invariably have through tickets, and the' better clJass from Bremen, who also take through, tickets, would come via Hull. In Hull the agent talks of the traffic from Hamburg as having ceased to exist. As a matter of fact, owing to the Hamburg regulations, only 280 aliens altogether arrived at Hull in 1901 (247 not stated to be en route and 33 en route), the bulk from Germany, viz., 2,609 (777 not stated to be en route and 1,832 en route), arriving from Bremen. The practical result, therefore, of the Conference, according to statistics, appears to be that while the German lines have captured the through passenger traffic from Russia, and the southern part of the Continent, the _ English Companies have enormously increased their Scandinavian through traffic, as also that pro- ceeding via Antwerp arid Rotterdam, this being specially noticeable at Hull. But are we to conclude that the largely increased number of immigrants from the German ports do come to settle in England, or are we to consider that we do still retain a large proportion of the. through traffic ? A strict belief in the statistics as provided would force one to the former conclusion, but inquiries lead to the latter. To retain, however, this trade, evasion is neces- sary—not of the law, but of the regulations—rendering ' an inquiry into the volume of alien transmigration ex- ceedingly difficult. I must here say that I believe the Shipping Companies intend to scrupulously carry out the terms of the Conference. They regularly remit £2 per head into the common pool in respect of aliens shipped over the sanctioned 6 per cent., and inasmuch as the six weeks rule is not rigidly observed, they also remit £2 for each alien sailing before the prescribed time. So farMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 789 as this latter condition is concerned, the Shipping Com- panies will not allow their agents to book foreigners wh& have arrived fr°;m the Continent between Cronstadt and Bordeaux unless they have been resident six weeks in this country. But tJiat the Shipping Companies may •carry transmigrants/ in the belief that they are merely emigrants from this country, evasion is necessary, and for the carrying out of this evasion an organisation must •exist. ; This organisation is that of the agents. The •Shipping Companies, of course, have their agents abroad, their agents at the' port of embarkation, and their agents in Liverpool; but, as I have before said, these; .agents . are- better described as middlemen. The following foreign companies are in the Confer- ence) viz. : The Hamburg Ajnerican Line, the North German Lloyd, the Red Star Antwerp, and the Rotter- dam Line from Rotterdam. It may be well.here to consider the position of the Beaver Line, under the management of Sir Alfred Jones (Messrs. Elder, Dempster and Co.). It was originally & party to the Conference, but has now withdrawn and is independent. Why, it may be asked, is evasion neces- sary to a line which can take an independent course? Solfar as the regulations affecting the shipment of aliens in; this country are concerned, the Beaver Line need resort to no evasion, but its free action is hampered by the German regulations. , I do not discuss these regula- tions, as Mai or Evans:Gordon has dealt with them in his'report ; 7 but merely refer to them inasmuch as they'; affect the action of the Beaver Co. ;No agent is alio we d •' to book an alien in Germany unless a concession has been granted by the German Government to the English company which he represents. For the carrying out of this regulation control stations are established in almost all the principal towns in Germany, Leipzic being the only one which has no control station. A concession has not been granted to the Beaver Line, but, in spite -of this fact, it carries much the largest proportion of the aliens who come from the East. The Monthly Alien Return shows that up to this date (November 18th) 113,682 passed through England to America or other places out of the United Kingdom, of whom 37,393 came from the Scandinavian ports named "below. Total aliens with through tickets from Jan- uary 1st to November 18th. 113,682 Deduct Scandinavians from Gothenburg, Ohristiania, Arendal and Christiansand. 37,393 76,289 Deduct Continental aliens carried Jby the r ^Beaver Line other than Scandinavians. 23,234- 63,055 These, figures would point to the conclusion that nearly«one-third of the aliens who have come , by cir- cuitous routes through Southern Europe or from Russia with through tickets were .carried by the Beaver Line in the year 1901, but this was not the case. Therefore, a large number of the aliens carried by the Beaver Line must be carried as emigrants from this country, and that the Beaver Line alone can knowingly carry such passengers is due to the fact that it is not bound by the conditions of the Conference. These are the aliens, a very large'number of whom are forwarded from London through Mrs. Kendall, the agent, who so confuse the Board of Trade statistics. That they are brought here by a process of evasion, and are represented to the Board of Trade as iihmigrants, is clear; but the very possi- bility of evasion presupposes the existence of an organi- sation outside that of the Shipping Campanies. A con- tinuous policy, by the extension of the use of the Alien List, would, I am persuaded, enable the Board of Trade to iascertain the number of immigrants settling in the country with greater accuracy. I now resume the course of procedure. On the day the ship is. appointed to sail the aliens are collected from the various lodging-houses, and are taken down in wagonettes to the landing stage. So soon as they have embarked they pass into the hands of the Board of Trade, and are at once examined by the official doctor. The Board of Trade has two doctors at Liverpool. Especially is every alien examined with a view to ascer- tain if he or she be afflicted with favus or trachoma. Mi\F% E. So particular are the American authorities to exclude Eddis. trachoma, that even bad eyes will disqualify. When I — was on board the "New England," belonging to the 7 May 1903. Allan Line, one alien was the subject of much discus--- sion. The doctor did not think that he was suffering from trachoma, albeit his eyes had a very weak appear- ance. He at length decided to run the risk, by passing the alien as fit, thinking, however, that possibly he might be returned to England as disqualified. . Be it noted that these aliens are not examined qua aliens, but as passengers irrespective of nationality, in accord- ance with an order under the Merchant Shipping Act made at a time when a voyage was a. much more serious affair, occupying weeks instead of days. The Shipping Company has, in the meanwhile, pre- pared its manifest, giving in detail the names of each passenger, and full particulars concerning them, in 21 columns. Upon the1 manifest the doctor has also to make a declaration to the effect that the manifest is correct in. all particulars relative to the' mental and physical condition of the passengers. The master, or first or second officer, has also to make an affidavit that he has caused the surgeon of the ship to make a physical examination of each of the passengers, and that he believes that no one of the passengers possesses any disqualification which would prevent him t being landed.: Both these .'declarations' are ..signed before the' Consul-of the United States at Liverpool. The* passenger has in addition to .make a declaration to the effect that he has truly answered the 21 questions in " language understood by me." While these precautions account for the comparatively small number returned, they suggest that a large num- 1 ber afflicted with disease remain T in England;» The Shipping Companies asert that they return such passengers to their own country, but, as I have shown, these would probably be only such as, by the posses- sion of through tickets, could have direct claims upon them, whereas passengers, especially from London without through tickets, would probably only be re- garded as starting from England. When the Board of Trade doctor rejects an alien h& passes him on to Dr. Hope, the Medical Officer of Health for the city of Liverpool. Dr. Hope has given evidence, and has explained the course he pursues with reference to the aliens so rejected. The official doctors do not send returns of those whom they reject to the Board of Trade. This omission is probably due to the fact that the alien is regarded only as a passenger outside the Alien Acts, whose nationality is not to be considered, but the nationality of the passenger is recorded and can be obtained. If these rejections were duly returned by the doctors of the Board and of the Shipping Company, an estimate of the extent to which the American law- is preventive might be formed. . - Before I close this Report, which deals only indirectly with immigration, I think it necessary to say •a few words respecting a class of aliens who are regularly week by week being landed in Liverpool from America. I refer to cattle-men. Every ship with cattle on board - brings a certain number of men, who are universally admitted to be of the very lowest type, according to tha description of one, " the dregs and scum of the con- tinent." Captain Macnab, Superintendent of the Mercantile Marine Office in Liverpool, has forwarded to me the following letter: — "Referring to our recent conversation respecting cattlemen on ships, I inform you that according to the crew list here, I find the statistics to be for the past month of October, a fairly representative month: — " Inwards, Liverpool, ships 32, men 763. " Outwards, Liverpool, ships 30, men 362. "Difference 401. " I have no means of ascertaining whether these 400 men, who were almost all aliens, stayed in England or crossed over to the Continent." These men are loafers at the American ports, and are induced to take charge of the cattle in consideration of a free passage to Liverpool. They are generally entered upon the articles of agreement at the nominal wage of Is,, which articles are handed to the Superintendent o: the Mercantile Marine. The cattle upon arrival ar3 immediately slaughtered, and the men, so soon as they have been cleared at the Custom House, are turned790 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. F. E. Eddis. 1 May 1903. adrift. The cattle-men may be divided into two (1) Those Who make eattle tending a business, and go backwards and forwards, as their engagements require. They are for the most part Americans, and, as stated above, numbered in the month of October 362. (2) Those who desire to obtain a free passage to Europe, and are engaged at Is. for the job of looking after the cattle. These are chiefly natives of Central Europe, e.g., Galicians, Poles, and Hungarians. Their ultimate object is to get to their homes on the Continent, but they arrive for the most part destitute. They cannot speak English, and being thoroughly depraved, they are regarded on all sides as a nuisance. The Society # for the Relief of Distressed Foreigners will not assist them, because, being so numerous, they would swallow up all their funds within a very short period. They therefore drift no one knows where, some to prison, some tramp the country, and some, as the Poor Law Re- turns show, fall upon the rates. Some fall into the hands of crimps, who come from the Brownlow district of Liverpool. Their numbers must by this time be very large, but they are not included in any statistics, nor is a return made of them to the Board of Trade. About 10 vessels, arrive weekly at Liverpool with cattle. Hull.—Most of my remarks with reference to the transmigration traffic through Grimsby apply equally to that through Hull. The latter port does, however, show a superior administration in one great respect. As I have explained, the organisation in Grimsby for the forwarding of aliens rests with a railway official who has no connection with a Government Department. Thus, at a critical moment a complete transference is effected. In Hull, on the other hand, the forwarding organisation is in the hands of an immigration agent, Mr. Drasdo, who is in constant touch with the Custom House and Board of Trade officials. He may be even said to be in their employ, as he is engaged by the Custom House authorities at a cost of 10s. for each boat, to carry out, as interpreter, the instructions from Rotterdam ■to London is - - - 0 11 0 The fare from London to New York is - - - 5 15 0 6 6 0 £1 4 0 Mr. 'Hiyschfeld,-who seems to practically control th* Rotterdam - to, London -traffic* cannot, beingr bound by the terms of the Conference, thus manipulate the journey. He must, therefore, when he-gives a ticket to London, be in ignorance of the fact that the appli* ., cant is a t- transmigrant to ..America,! I ' have dealt; perhaps at undue length upon this particular feature of the through traffic, but I have done so because,)in my opinion, the irregularity of it must inevitably result in unsatisfactory statistics. The compulsory production of contract- tickets at the port of London and the compulsory returns by duly licensed passage brokers to the Board of Trade would undoubtedly secure a more or less accurate return of the volume of trans- migration and of immigration. Before concluding this report I must refer to the medical examination of . all aliens bound for America or* Canada. ..As I have before said, the Dutch Govern- ment holds no official examination. The Rotterdam American Line, which carried in the year 1901 a very large number of emigrants to New York, conduct their examination by their own doctors in their own hotel. The English Shipping Companies also make arangements with their agents in Rotterdam to hold: a most strict examination. I was present at an examination of 40 aliens who<, were proceeding via Hull and Liverpool to New York. The examination of the eyes and head was moist thorough, iil view of the fact that the American laws are specially directed against the introduction of " trachoma and favus." I must here assert that the contention that the American laws are not preventive is absolutely disproved at everry examination which oner may attend either casually or designedly. Out of the 40, a family consisting, of five and two men were re- jected. Being anxious to ascertain what became of the rejected, I found after inquiry that they had all re- ceived tickets back to their own homes in Eastern Europe. I would, however, point out that no objection could or would have been raised to them proceeding forthwith to England, and even if Mr. Hirschfeld had not granted tickets to London they could have proceeded via, Harwich, as the Great Eastern Company have no medical examination. FORTY-SIXTH DAY. Monday, 11 th May 1903. members present : Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. (in the Chair). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. The Hon. Alfred Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p. William Vallance, Esq. (Sir Kenelm Dighy.) I am sorry to say that Lord James has not quite recovered, and is unable to be pre- sent to-day. Mr. Jacob Kramrisch, called; and Examined. Mr. J. Kramrisch. 11 May 1903. 21714. (fiord Bothschild.) You live in Glasgow I do. 21715. You are a naturalised British subject?—I am. 21716. You were born in Austria, and came over with your parents in 1873 ?—Yes. 21717. I suppose you are of the Jewish religion?—Yes. I am manager of the cigarette department in the Messrs. Stephen Mitchell and Son's branch, Glasgow, of the Im- perial Tobacco Company of Great Britain and Ireland, Limited, which position I have held since February, 1888. Previous to this I acted in a similar capacity for six years with Messrs. John Player and Sons, Notting- ham, which is also a branch of this same company. When I entered Messrs. Player's employment, in the year 1882, the cigarette trade was still in its infancy in Great Britain, Messrs. Player being the pioneers in Not- tingham. The consumption of cigarettes was then a comparative novelty in this country, and was almost exclusively confined to foreign consumers. Those that were used were principally imported from America and the Continent. They were a comparatively expensive luxury, and except a few of the better brands, were of an inferior quality! It would be difficult to compute with any approach to accuracy the actual number of persons employed in the manufacture of cigarettes at that time (1882). As, however, very few firms in Britain were then engaged in the trade, the sale of English-made cigarettes being very small, the number so employed could not have been many. The British manufacturers gradually recognised the fact that, if an article could be produced, which in point of quality and price could advantageously compete with the American and Continental production, theMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 793 cigarette trade could' be enormously developed in this country, and might ultimately succeed in ousting the foreign-made article from British markets. There being no competent native labour procurable, the manufac- turers had no choice but to call foreign labour to their assistance, so that as the trade developed foreign work- men, principally, almost exclusively, Jews, were em- ployed from time to time as they came into the country. Messrs. Player and Sons started their cigarette depart- ment with less than a dozen foreigners, and this trade has so developed since then that I believe they now give employment to a large number of females, besides a number of machine hands. Prior to my engagement with the Stephen Mitchell and Son branch of the Im- perial Tobacco Go., the cigarette trade was practically unknown in Scotland. I believe there was one firm in Glasgow that employed two or three foreigners, but the total output was so in- significant that it need not be taken into serious account. The Stephen Mitchell and Son branch of the Imperial Tobacco Company started the cigarette department with two or three foreign males, and so extensively has the trade grown, that this branch of the company now em- ploys about 160 males and about 100 females. The former are all foreign Jews—of various nationalities— and the latter are about equally divided between foreigners and natives. The utmost harmony and esprit de corps exists between these two classes, no rupture nor friction on account of nationality having ever occurred. These 260 or so workers are exclusively engaged in the manufacture of the best hand-made cigarettes. This branch has also a number of the most up-to-date machines in operation for the production of machine- made cigarettes, by means of which employment is given to a large additional number of workers. This, the Stephen Mitchell and Son branch, now holds a foremost position in the cigarette trade in Scotland, and I com- pute that, counting the" allied branches of the trade, such as cutters, packers, finishers, printers, box-makers, etc. (who, of course, are natives), this, branch alone ilow gives employment to some 500 or 600 hands in this de- partment alone. There are a few other tobacco manu- facturers in, Glasgow, who likewise employ foreign labour in this trade, and whose aggregate annual production will also form no small amount. Not only, has a large home trade been cultivated by British manufacturers, but it must likewise be remembered that a most exten- sive Colonial and export trade has. been opened up, enormous quantities of goods being exported annually to all parts of the globe. The British manufacturer has been able so far to hold his own with his foreign com- petitor, and the fact that thousands of hands are em- ployed in the trade, and of the large revenue which the country: derives in the way of Excise duty, proves that this trade has been highly beneficial to the country. '-But for the use of foreign labour in the first instance and . British capital ■ and enterprise in the second, this highly satisfactory condition of things could not have been in existence. The amount of wages earned by the operatives, the Excise revenue, the indirect employment it gives to thousands of workers, would have remained on the Continent and America, and been lost to this country. It is an entirely new industry, created almost exclusively by alien immigrants, who have not only not displaced any native labour, but have been the means.' of benefiting capitalists and great numbers of native workers. As I have shown, the establishment by these foreigners of what practically was a new industry has been the means of providing work for British workers in connec- tion with ■» the packing, finishing, printing, box-making, etc., in addition to those British makers who are en- gaged in the cigarette-making themselves. I attribute the existence of the present huge cigarette- making trade in Great Britain to the foreigners. In this particular industry not only has the introduc- tion of rit been made possible in this country, but its continued existence also depends to some extent on forein workmen. They are not employed because of low wages. They Mr. J. are paid good wages, a man earning an average of 32s. Kramrisch• per week, the average earning of a female being 17s. --- per week. H May 1903# The alien worker will not work for low wages. He knows his value and extracts it. 21718. (Mr. Vallance.) I take it that the point of your evidence is that in the tobacco trade the foreigners have developed the industry, and have not competed in labour or in wages ?-—That is actually the fact. 21719. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you think had it not been for foreign labour this industry would not have come into this country at all?—I am almost certain it would not. 21720. Do the English workers seek work in the cigarette industry at all ?—Female workers do, but not males. As I pointed out in my evidence, we have a lot of native Scotch girls whom we have trained ourselves to make cigarettes. 21721. So the native Scotch girl showed capacity for learning this trade?—Yes, undoubtedly. 21722. What is the reason you attribute for the English people not taking to itj too?—The men? 21723. Yes?—I do not know how it is, but they have never taken to it. I think I have only had one British born subject as a cigarette-maker in all the years I have been manager of the two factories. 21724. Do not the English Jews take to it ?—Oh, yes; , we have a good few who were born in this country. 21725. They would be British born subjects who have taken to it?—Yes. 21726. Do you get as much labour as you require in the trade ?—At the present moment we do. 21727. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) You say the manufac- turers have no choice but to call foreign labour to their assistance. Where do they go for it ?—Mostly to Russia. We brought over a large number of hands from Russia and Germany as well. 21728. Were they Jews?—They were all Jews. 21729. (Lord Bothschild.) Is there any sub-division of labour in the manufacture oi cigarettes, or does one person entirely make the cigarette ?—What they call the cigarette spills, that is the outer case for the filling of tobacco, are made either by a girl or a boy, and we have a number of machines that make those spills, but other- wise there is no sub-division of labour. 21730. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Have you got any hands from Polakewitz, of Warsaw ?—I believe1 we have- 21731. There is a very large cigarette industry there ? —I believe we have some men who were trained there. . 21732. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) Do you keep up your supply of labour from that same source?—Latterly we* have had no occasion to bring in hands from abroad. We acet them from London, Manchester, and other cities. 21733. They gravitate naturally to those cities, and they apply for employment?—Yes. 21734. You do not import any direct now?—Not now, and we have not done so for some time. There has been no occasion for it. 21735. When you did, did you do it through agents ?' —When we did, I sent over a man to Russia to engage: the hands, and I myself went to Hamburg, and saw that everything was right. 21736. (Lord Bothschild.) They were skilled already before they came ?—They were all skilled workmen. 21737. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) They were men who had been working at their own trade in their own country? —Yes. 21738. (Major Evans-Gordon.) There is a gigantic cigarette industry in Russia, is there not?—Yes. Dr. James Niven", m.a., m.b., called ; and Examined. 21730. (Sir Kenelm Bigby.) You are Medical Officer of Health for Manchester ?—Yes. 21740. You have come to speak of the aliens in Man- chester, and you say that the greater number of them are Jews?—Yes, that is so. There is a small colpny ? 6144. of Poles, and there is also a small colony of Lithua- J)r. J. Niven nians, but the great bulk of the aliens are Jews. M.A., m.b. 21741. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Russian Jews %—I have sup- plied tables which show, for the districts we have in- spected, that the majority are Russians and Poles. 5 H794 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : J)r: J. Yiven, 21742. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What have you to say, • 'M;AV, M.B. first of all, about the sanitary statistics? What is the .....» birth rate and death rate?—'The birth rate is high and li may 1903. the death rate is low. The infantile death rate is low. I have not sent in previously the tables showing the in- fantile death rate, but the statistical district in Man- chester prevailingly occupied by Jews is Cheetham, and the infantile death rate—that is to say, the number of deaths, amongst infants under one year of age per thousand born—is in each of the years 1897, 1898, 1899, 1900, 1901 the lowest of all the statistical districts in the city in the district of Cheetham, with the exception of 1897, which is the next lowest. 21743. Could you give us a typical figure to compare the death rate ?—'In 1897 the figure is 129 per thousand, the lowest being for Crumpsall, which is on the outskirts, 105 p^r thousand. 21744.: That, is the year that the death rate was not the lowest ?—>It was not the lowest in that year. The highest in that year was 259 per thousand in the Central district. 21745. Would that be abnormal in any way?—Yes, that is very high. And Cheetham is decidedly low. 21746. What one wants to get is about what you con- sider would be a typical comparison ?—For the whole •city the figure in 1898 was 196 ; for Cheetham, 122 ; in 1899, for the whole city, it was 205 ; for Cheetham, 104 ; so that it is in that district extremely low. Then their death rate altogether is low, even if allowance is made for the average age of the immigrants not coincid- ing with that of the surrounding population. One can ;always tell by taking the death rate in groups of ages, >and if that is done as in Table A, one finds, with the ex- ception of ages above 65, where the numbers are so low that there may be a little variation, that with all the other groups of ages in a selected number of Jewish districts in the centre of the city, the death rate is lower at each age. group than it is in the city, taken as a whole. I imay say. that I owe these figures to the courtesy of the Registrar-General, who supplied me with special figures for the various sub-districts -occupied exclusively by the Jewish people. 21747. And those figures are given by this Table A? —Those figures are given by this Table A. - 21748. Have you anything special to call attention i>o i^i addition to the general observations you have made already ?—-No, there is nothing except the re- markably low d.eath rate at all ages in that district. 21749. You make a . special column for deaths from , phthisis. Have you anything to say about that ?^- When one considers that these people are certainly . rather crowded, it is remarkable that the death rate from phthisis also is lower in the various groups of ages than in the case of the general population. 21750. You say they are more crowded than the general population ?—They are more crowded than the general population, that is to say, the poorer Jews. This ♦ evidence deals exclusively with the poor districts and the poorest part of the Jewish population. Merely • comparing them with the city as a whole, they are more crowded. 21751. And vet you find that the death rate from jphthisis is lower ?—At the different ages ; so that it lis not merely a matter of more adults coming in. It :is so with the lower group of ages as well. Of course, in that manner you can eliminate any fallacy with .regard to the different proportions of young people and olds people. 21752. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Phthisis, according to modern ideas, is peculiarly aggravated by very close quarters, as a rule, is it not? — Phthisis depends on a great variety of factors. It is quite true that phthisis is an infectious disease, but it is an infectious disease which is conditioned by a great many circumstances, and prominent among these circumstances is the health and vitality of the persons exposed to infection. People who live healthy, temperate lives, of course contract phthisis to a much less extent than people whose con- stitutions are undermined by excesses of any descrip- ?t';. --5 Y .. v..: fion. ' * ' . "... 21753. What I meant was that if you get a damp climate like Manchester undoubtedly is, and if you get"overcrowded''condition's, you have to have a certain vigour of constitution to resist these causes alone?— Yes, but the question is a very large one. The Jewish population do not drink much. I do not think there is much doubt that the public-house is a very distinct element in the propagation of phthisis. Men go and sit there and spit, and the infection accumulates, and the dust of the public-house is no doubt an important factor in the propagation of the disease. Of course, tha Jewish population are to a great extent protected from that influence. But, of course, where the money is spent upon food and the maintenance of the system rather than upon alcohol, it is obvious that there would be more resistance to the infection of the disease. 21754. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You get it both ways?— Yes. 21755. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Has public-house dust ever been specially analysed with reference to this ?— No, I do not think that it has ; but it is- quite obvious that it must be. 21756. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You have anticipated to some extent my next question, which is, what you would have to say as to the reason of this low death-rate ?—Do you mean the low death-rate from phthisis? 21757. No; I mean, speaking generally, of the low death rate and the high birth rate. With regard to children, you say that the children are strong and healthy?—The children, as I have seen them, in two large schools in Manchester. I had occasion to examine the scholars with regard to vaccination, and was very much struck with the vigorous appearance of the Jewish children in these schools. It certainly is not what I should have anticipated. 21758. (Lord Bothschild.) You had no trouble with the vaccination of them ; they were all vaccinated ?-—Not by any means all. 21759. You had no trouble to get them vaccinated ; they did not object to vaccination, did they ?-—Oh, yes, I think they did, some of them. They are just like other people. 21760. (Major "Evans-Gorcfron.) Has the anti-vaccina- tion propaganda affected them, too P—A good many of the Jewish people are rather obstinate and determined in their resistance. They are just like other people. I do not think there is any difference in that respect. 21761. (Mr. Vallance.) As a class, are not the Jewish parents keener in favour of vaccination ?■—I think they are. 21762. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say the total number of Jews living in Manchester is estimated at about 25,000?—Yes, I believe that estimate was, made by Mr. Max Hesse. The estimate, I believe, was made by assuming that the number of children attending school bears to the total-living at all ages the same ratio as for the general population. Of course, it is an estimate" which is rather difficult to check, but the proportion of Jewish people under fifteen years of age to the total population in the districts, which I obtained from the Registrar-General, is rather higher than the proportion under the same age to the total population for the city generally. . 21763. That would point to their families being larger?—Yes; they have large families. The high pro- portion of children is rather singular also if you consider the question of immigration, because it seems to indicate that there cannot be such a very large number of immi- grants coming into, the city. However it may be, the estimate was based on the proportion of children attend- ing school. I believe the Jewish estimate is that it is rather over than under 25,000, and that it is between 25,000 and 30,000. But the comparison just given would seem to show that so far as that figure alone is con- cerned, it would be rather under 25,000 than over 25,000. Anyhow, that is the estimate which has been formed of the number of Jews. 21764. Have you anything to say about the food of the Jews?—No>, I do not think that I have especially. I have mentioned in mv statement in detail what I have been told about the food. It is nutritious food, and ib cheap. They show economy in the choice of foods, ex- cept, perhaps, with regard to chickens, of which they are rather fond. They try to get chickens as often as they can. I think they feed pretty well as far as their means will go, and as far as I have been able to judge by going into their houses. 21765. Now;, about the character of their houses with regard to cleanliness ?~Among the better class Jewish people who have established themselves, and who live outside these districts, so far as I have seen, theirMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 795 houses are clean enough; no doubt there is a certain amount of slovenliness amongst the poorest Jews, but my impression is that it tends rather to an accumula- tion of dust, and that kind of thing, than to the actual presence of filth in the house ; but I think no doubt there has been a tendency for the house occupied by the poorest Jews to be dirty. One observes that particu- larly, that is to say amongst those who have most re- cently come over from Russia. 21766. Do you get many of those who come straight from Russia ?—I am not really able to say what is the proportion of those who have come recently. I have mentioned in my evidence that they do not get very much encouragement, so far as I can ascertain, to come to Manchester unless they are able to establish them- selves. 21767. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Encouragement from whom? —From the Jewish Board of Guardians, and from the Jewish community generally. I think you have had evidence already on that subject from Mr. Isaacs, and all that I know comes from him. I understand they are distinctly discouraged from coming over unless they are able to establish themselves on a decided footing in the country. I have not the slightest doubt that that acts as a distinct check on the importation of immi- grants. 21768. Who are not likely to do well when they come here?—Who are not likely to do well when they come here. 21769. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you, as Medical Officer, had anything to do with legal proceedings with regard to enforcing the sanitary laws, the provisions with regard to overcrowding and cleanliness, and so on? —-No,; as a matter of fact, any prosecution with regard to that is not undertaken by me. 21770. Or on your reports?—No ; except indirectly, on some report I may send in. I am not able to inform you what is the number of prosecutions which have taken place with regard to overcrowding. 21771. Do you know generally whether there have been any?—Very few recently. 21772. Is there any difficulty in Manchester in en- forcing the ^sanitary law under the Public Health Act? —No, I do not think so. I do not think prosecutions have been instituted to any extent with regard to over- crowding. 21775. (Mr. Vallance.) Does overcrowding as a fact exist to any great extent in Manchester?—Before answering that question, may I just modify this sen- tence in my evidence ? " There is overcrowding amongst them, but not of a very serious nature, considering their poverty." On reconsidering that, I do not see that the poverty has much to do with it, and I should like to strike out the latter part of that, and simply to leave it, "There is overcrowding amongst them." I go on to say : " Still, there is more overcrowding than amongst the corresponding class of English people." 21774. (Lord Bothschild.) You think there is more?— 1 think there is more. 21775. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are there any specific sanitary evils that you can attribute to this overcrowd- ing amongst them, as compared with that which pre- vails among the other population ?—May I give you the figures first ? Out of 623 houses in Strangeways, lodgers were taken in in 303, and part of the house was used as a workroom in 73. Out of 623 houses in Strange- ways, 59 had 2 persons per room, and 44 over 2 per- sons. Out of 367 houses in Red Bank, which is another Jewish district, 44 had 2 persons per room, and 60 had over 2 persons per room. In Angel Meadow, in which the Jewish element is small, out of 174 houses, 23 had 2 persons per room, and 24 had over 2 persons per room. Thus Angel Meadow, is nearly as crowded as Red Bank, and more crowded than Strangeways. Doubtless, one quarter would affect another, and I think there is little doubt there is more crowding in the portion which ad- joins the Jewish district in the city. 21776. More than there is in the Jewish district?— More than there is in other parts of Manchester. But that seems to be due more to the growth of the Jewish population than to the number of fresh immigrants who are coming in. 21777. (Lord Bothschild.) The number of children ?— The number of children and the small mortality. 21778. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is the overcrowding due rather to the large families in particular districts than 6L44 to their being let in lodgings, do you think?—I think it Dr. J, Nivm, is mostly due to the large families. I will give you m.a., m.b. that figure. I go on to say it is also due, however, to -- the number of instances in which lodgers are taken 11 May 1903. in. It implies a considerable number of young children • generally. Without bringing the whole of the indi- vidual reports I could not show that. Thus, taking as a measure of overcrowding two persons per room, out of 44 cases of overcrowding, 27 are due to the presence of lodgers ; that is to say there would not be over- crowding if they did not take in lodgers; meaning by overcrowding over two persons per room. 21779. Your Table B shows the overcrowding with reference to the different nationalities, and degrees of overcrowding in these three districts?—Yes, that is so. Might I explain how that table came to be constructed ? Since the beginning of 1900 up to recently the Corpora- tion of Manchester employed a Jewish lady, Miss Blu- menthal, to visit the worst Jewish districts, house by house, to report on them, and to endeavour to bring about cleanly conditions. This effort has met with considerable success. Reports have been made on printed forms, and give for each house valuable sta- tistical data:—the number of inmates, their1 'age and sex, the sanitary state of the house-yard, water-closets, etc. I give an example of the reports which Miss Blumenthal sent in, from which you will see the continuity of the work (producing docu- ment). This is a particular house reported upon, and there is the date of the first visit, and . this is an account of the subsequent visits of this Jewish lady. Then an analysis has beien made- of the particulars, so far as they can be reduced to an analysis, for each district of these reports (producing further document). 21780. Do each of these sheets relate to a particular house ?—To three houses. This is the first report on the first visit ; there are the subsequent visits, and this relates to the next house (explaining the document). 21781. The two columns relate to each house ?—Yes. 21782. Did Miss Blumenthal confine her operations to the Jewish quarter?'—In the first instance, yes; but latterly her operations have ceased. She has got. married, as a matter of fact. Latterly she was inspect- ing the adjoining district of Angel Meadow, which 1 have mentioned, and which contains only a small pro- portion of aliens. 21783. Your Table B, as I understand, summarises the result?—This is a summary of these reports, and^ Table B summarises those merely for the purpose ot 4 showing the degree of crowding. 21784. Would you call attention to anything you coiv sider most important in Table B ? I see the Russian and Polish figures are rather higher than any of the others in Strangeways, for instance. You first of all give the number of rooms per house. I suppose you mean by a house a single tenement, which is in single occupation ?—Yes. As regards the district visited, it will be seen that the chief inhabitants are Russians - *md Poles, with some English-born Jews, Germans, and' Austrians, with a isprinkling of some other nationalities,, the Russians predominating. It will be seen that, tak- . ing it altogether, there is more crowding in the Russian and Polish houses than there is amongst the other • houses. I think those are the chief points which come out from the tables. Of course, the table also indicates; how these people are distributed, and where they come- from in these poorer quarters. < I may say that the great bulk of them have been over here for .a consider- able time; it is only comparatively few who have; recently come over. 21785. Your evidence does not deal very much with-. the new arrivals?1—I do not think there are many new arrivals. 21786. I suppose they have lived in other towns before they come to you, probably, or do they come direct ?—I think a good many of them do. I think they come from Hull. 21787. But not in large quantities ?—The proportion of the immigrants is not very large, so far as I can ascertain. Of course, I have to take that from the state- ment of the Jewish Board of Guardians—at least, I have done so, as a matter of fact. 21788. Your Table B deals with these three localities, Strangeways, Red Bank, and Angel Meadow ?—Yes. 21789. What is Table C ?—That is showing the pro- portion of sanitary defects to s houses which were ascer- tained by Miss Blumenthal on her visits. 5 H 2796 royal commission on alien immigration. Dr. J. Niven, 21790. There again the Russians predominate. She m.sa., m.b. finds, taking the ±iussian houses, there are 390 houses -- as against 58 English, and there were 223 sanitary de- ll May 1908. fects in the Russian houses against 30 English out of 390. Then, taking Red Bank, there were 279 Russian houses, and there were 214 defects, as against 38 Eng- lish houses with 21 defects. And in Angel Meadow, wihere the foreign population is much smaller appar- ently, the English had 119 houses, and only 18 were defective. The Russian figures are 22 houses and 7 defective?—Yes, that is to isay, the proportion of sanitary defects is highest amongst the Russians. 21791. Have you, as Medical Officer, come across any special evils arising from this overcrowding, such as affections of the eyes, and so on ?—No, I cannot say thait I have. I have occasionally seen a case of sore eyes— trachoma, but I cannot say that I have observed that that is very marked amongst the Jewish population. 21792. As compared with the native population ?—As compared with ithe native population; in fact, I cannot say that it is very marked at all. Then, per- haps, if I can pursue that subject, except in the caise of diphtheria, we have had no special incidence of disease amongst the population. You would naturally expect that with very large families you would find a very large number of cases of infectious diseases, but that, however, is not the case except as regards diphtheria!; there has been some excess in recent years amongst the Jewish population, but not with regard to other diseases. In fact, we had an outbreak of typhus fever in the dis- trict adjoining the Jewish population in 1900. We had about 50 cases in all, and the Jewish district was. en- tirely spared. There was no oa.se of typhus among the Jewish population, and it is the same as regards small- pox. 21793. {Mr. Vallance.) In the case of diphtheria, would not that arise for the most part from external causes for which the tenants themselves would not be responsible, such as defective drains, and so forth?— The mode of spreading diphtheria, so far as we know at present, is rather obscure. The general tendency is to regard diphtheria as purely propagated from person to person, that is to say it is much less dependent upon external infection than upon personal infection from person to person. Of course, a number of children being crowded together in a house would go to render that disease more prevalent. 21794. I had rather in my mind an outbreak of diph- theria in a house in the case of one child, for instance, Would that outbreak be attributable to external causes rather than to any habit of life on the part of the occu- pants ?—The child would probably be infected from some other child—I do not say certainly, but that is undoubt- edly the most common mode of propagation of diph- theria, from child to child and one person to another. Of course, the vigour of the child would have something to do with it, that is to say you want two things in diphtheria, you want the infection and you want also •enfeebled mucous membrane to receive the infection, so that the condition of health of the infected person would have to do with the attack of diphtheria also. But diphtheria, so far as we know at present, must be regarded, I think, as generally due to infection from person to person. At any rate, that disease has been more prevalent in the Jewish quarter of recent years, but as I say, typhus spared them. We have had a con- siderable outbreak of smallpox since last autumn, or rather we have had an outbreak of smallpox, not a con- siderable one, but an outbreak, and that also has practically spared the Jewish population. I think there was one Jew who was living in a common lodging- house who contracted the disease. / 21795. (Mr.LyHelton.) I thought Mr. Yallance's ques- tion related to the origin of the disease. The origin of the disease in most cases is an external source, such as bad drains, or bacillus from somewhere ?—-Not neces- sarily. One peculiarity of diphtheria is that it is a dis- ease which takes very different aspects. A very large proportion of people who are infected with diphtheria have it in an extremely slight form, so that it is often difficult to follow the person from whom the disease has been contracted. We know that from our bacteriological examinations. We know, when we have been investi- gating attacks of diptheria, that we have examined slight sore throats and found that those cases were actually diphtheria, although the existence of the dis- ease was hardly suspected. That is a marked feature of the disease, the large proportion of very slight attacks, and that is, in fact, what gives it its power of propaga- tion. 21796. {Mr Vallance.) It is difficult for you to say that the disease arises from external causes, but that the child may in school or otherwise have contracted the disease from another child who had it in some slight form and scarcely to be noticed ? Entirely overlooked. 21797. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Does that conclude what you have to say about the sanitary aspect of the matter P —I think so, unless you wish to ask me any question. 21798. Do you wish to say anything about the occupa- tions or wages ?-—That is hardly a question within my province. I give the occupations that I know them to pursue in Manchester. 21799. We have had a good deal of evidence of that already ?—I have also mentioned in one district the pro- portion of rooms in the house which are occupied as work rooms. There are 73 out of 623. 21800. That is rooms which are occupied as work rooms in their houses ?—Yes ; that is a rather high proportion, of course—73 out of 623. 21801. Is that practice of using rooms in dwelling- houses for workshops diminishing?—.No, I do not think that it is changing. 21802. You give some figures about some particular buildings. I do not know that we need go into that unless you attach much importance to that ?—That was simply to render my statement complete. 21803. Then with regard to Italians, have you anything to say about them ?—You will see that the number as given by the Census is very small, only 562, and their occupations are ice-cream making, biscuit-making, and organ-grinding. The biscuit-making is rather on the increase, and I understand that the ice cream-making is on the decrease, and they are being shut out by English makers. The Italians are not a changing colony in Man- chester. Most of them have been there for a very considerable time. 21804. You do not have an importation of them every summer?—No, we do not have an annual importation in Manchester. 21805. I do not think that very much affects the ques- tion that we are going into. It is on too small a scale ? —Yes, it is. 21806. (Lord Bothschild.) Do the Corporation employ lady visitors to the native houses as well as to the Jewish houses?—Yes, and no. There is a society in Manchester called the Manchester and Salford Ladies' Health Association, which employs a number of visitors who are under the supervision of the ladies of the society, and who do a very large amount of visiting for the Cor- poration and inspect houses and make reports, and so forth. There is also a Jewish society of the same nature, and they send in a very large amount of information upon sanitary subjects, and do a very considerable amount of work in teaching people with regard to the feeding of infants, and so on, but that is on a different footing from Miss Blumenthal. The Jewish Ladies7 Health Association applied for an additional visitor, and on consideration of the question at the time it seemed to me that more good would be effected if we had a house-to-house inspection, and an effort to remove insanitary conditions, and to reduce overcrowd- ing, which we have succeeded in to some extent, than if to proceed on the existing lines. But there is also a considerable amount of work done by these other health visitors. 21807. I think you gave these figures : you said there were 58 English houses reported on, of which 30 were insanitary, that is about 60 per cent., and there were 390 Russian houses, of which 223 were insanitary. That is very much the same percentage. Were both classes ©£ houses equally insanitary and overcrowded. I suppose they were in the Jewish districts ?—These are all Jewish people. 21808- They are all Jews?—They are English Jews. One may take it that the districts visited in Strange- ways and Red Bank are almost entirely occupied by Jews. 21809. Therefore in the Jewish quarter the houses of English and alien Jews were equally insanitary?—So far as the table shows there is not a very great dis- parity. What there is, is against the Russian element 21810. I suppose you would not agree with Mr. Gil- mour that the Jewish population is an exceptionallyMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 797 dirty race and dirty in their habits?—No, I do not say that. I think the people when they first come over have a different standard of cleanliness to what exists in this country, hut I think the fact is that they are amenable tg the ordinary methods of sanitary administration, and that the defects have, in fact, been largely remedied, partly 'by persuasion and partly by pressure. 21811. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is that so, that you find them amenable ? Supposing they have a notice to re- medy a sanitary defect, do they obey it?—Certainly, they have to obey it, or they would be taken into court. 21812. But have you much difficulty in enforcing sani- tary regulations?—Of course, there is always a little difficulty in enforcing sanitary regulations. For in- stance, if we take these visits of Miss Blumenthal's, she would have to go perhaps a good many times before she got the particular thing she wanted done. She would get it done, but it would take a. good deal of per- suasion often to get the necessary cleansing effected, or to get out the lodgers when there was overcrowding from that cause. But I certainly do not think they are less amenable to sanitary administration than the cor- responding class of the native population. 21813. (Mr. Vallance.) You have been good enough to produce a specimen of Miss Blumenthal's reports. These reports appear to be very thorough with regard to the visits and the initial proceedings?—Yes. 21814. Will you be good enought now to state what the procedure of the sanitary authority or of the Corpora- tion may be upon receipt of these reports ?—In a very large number of instances the sanitary defects which were found with regard to drainage, and so on, were re- medied, and the drainage was reconstructed. In fact, that will be seen from those reports. 21815. But this reports what has been done, and the result of the visit. What I mean is through whose in- fluence do these reports pass, so as to ensure that every step is taken to secure the removal of the nuisance ?— These reports come to me, and I then refer any matter which requires remedy to the head of the sanitary de- partment, Chief Inspector Rook, to carry out the neces- sary work. I put it in that shape. First of all the sanitary inspector is requested to consult with Miss Blumenthal, and see the defects of which she complains, and to make a report, and then Mr. Rook would see that the necessary changes were carried out. 21816. Then the machinery is sufficiently effective to ensure that these reports are not pigeon-holed?—Cer- tainly ; a larg& amount of work has been done in this district. There is no doubt that the condition of this very poor quarter has very much altered since Miss Blumenthal commenced her operations. 21817. This question of overcrowding is perhaps a more serious one in other places than Manchester. It may not be so serious a problem in Manchester, but have you experienced any difficulty in regard to the en- forcement of the law with regard to overcrowding in Manchester ?—There is, I think, a certain reluctance to enforce the law with regard to overcrowding. In the first place, it is very difficult to understand what overcrowding is. There is no statutory definition of overcrowding. The Public Health Act does not define overcrowding. If you take a case into court we have to establish in the judgment of the magistrate that the conditions of overcrowding are such as to lead to a loss of health. 21818. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you not bye-laws under the Public Health Act?—Yes, for houses let in lodgings, but I am not aware there are any bye-laws anywhere dealing with overcrowding, except with regard to houses let in lodgings. 21819. (Mr. Vallance.) In the case of houses let in lodgings, do you under your bye-laws prescribe a mini- mum cubic feet space ?—Yes, that is so. 21820. Would not a court of summary jurisdiction adopt that ?—Oh, yes. 21821. Then where is the difficulty in defining in pro- ceedings what overcrowding is?—There is no difficulty with regard to houses let in lodgings. 21822. If there is no difficulty, have you anything to say with regard to the existing law as to whether it is efficient and sufficient, or whether any alteration is, in your judgment, necessary to make it effective?—-As regards houses which are let in lodgings, I do not think it is necessary to make any alteration of the existing law, unless, it may be, to define what is a house let in lodgings. There may be a difficulty there. A house, for instance, may be _taken by someone, and may be j)r jt ^iven, sub-let to families in different portions as separate tene- m.A., m.b. ments. If there is an obscurity on that point, I think - it ought to be made quite clear that that is a house let 11 May 1903. in lodgings. But I think the existing law is quite suf- - ficient for all purposes if carried out for houses actually and ostensibly let in lodgings. It is quite true that it is very difficult to know how you are going to draw your line in administering the law, but all laws have to be administered as a matter of judgment on the part of the administrator, and it would be entirely a matter of judgment as to what houses should be brought under the jurisdiction of the existing bye-laws. In any case, it must be so, so that I think the existing laws should be sufficient for that purpose. The question of over- crowding is not merely one of houses let in lodgings, it is a question also of large families occupying particular tenements, and I think also that ' it might be as well to have a statutory definition of overcrowding. It will always be difficult to get a magistrate to adopt what is necessarily a somewhat variable factor, namely, the number of persons who should be occupying a room. The room may be small or the room may be very large, and very probably a certain amount of cubic feet space per person, just as it is adopted in the case of houses let in lodgings, would be the best standard. I do not wish to speak very positively on that subject. I have also stated in my evidence that the question of cleanliness with re- gard to the person of immigrants is one which perhaps wants considering, but I do not see how it is going to be possible to separate that consideration for these aliens • from the consideration of the same question for the native born population. The difficulties in making a distinction seem to me practically insuperable. 21823. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What is the fact, first? Is the inference that you draw from your figures that in this quarter of Manchester there are more overcrowd- ing and more defects in sanitary matters than in the worst part of the native districts ?—No; I do not say that. I think that when we began our operations it was one of the worst, and I think now it is better than some part of the native population as regards cleanliness. 21824. Is that because more attention has been paid to it, and more work done there?—Yes, because more work has been expended upon it. 21825. But if you only spend the same attention ani work upon this quarter as upon the other quarters, in your opinion would it probably be found somewhat worse in those two respects ?—Of course, you have this in favour of the Jewish population—that, whatever other defects they may have, they are, upon the whole. very temperate. 21826. But please keep these two things separate, because they are entirely different, if I may say so. The first point is whether the overcrowding conditions and the sanitary conditions (putting aside habits for the moment) are, in your judgment, worse or not worse ceteris pa/ribus with the poorest native district?—They are not worse than some parts of the native population. 21827. But they were until special work had been applied to them?—They were as bad, I think, in the very worst parts and poorest parts in limited areas. 21828. Then with regard to your other point, your statistics give us, notwithstanding, a much lower death rate in these quarters than in other quarters similar to them?—Yes. 21829. As those two factors stand, there must either be better habits or more vigorous constitution among the alien than among the native population. If you get a low death rate under, if anything, worse conditions, one or two of those factors must exist in order to account for the statistics, must not they?— May I ask you to give me your alternative again ? 21830. Better habits or more vigorous constitution ? —Yes, of course, it is very general. I should say tbflt includes everything. 21831. We have heard, almost at the beginning of this inquiry, that from some cause or other—greater en- during power or greater temperance—the alien is able to resist insanitary conditions better than the native 1 — All conditions that affect health are insanitary. 21832. But I mean insanitary in the ordinary sense of the Public Health Acts ?—Yes, that is so. 21833. Your statistics seem to me to 'Omnicide exactly with the proposition which was put to us at the begin- ning of this inquiry?—That is so. I thought the que*-798 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : II May 1903. DfiJ.Niven, i&Qii you asked me was whether it was not possible to M. a., m.b. deal with other very insanitary districts in the same manner as these. 21834. No, I did ryot ask that; but I will ask it, if you would like to give us your view on it?—'That is what I imagined I was answering, and, of course, the factor of temperance isi an important one. Where you have that you have the possibility of improving the habits of the' people by sanitary administration to a much greater extent than where it is absent. That is obvious. 21835. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is the poor Jew and poor foreign population of Manchester extensive?—It is a little difficult for me to answer that question. Yes, 1 should say there is a considerable number, but I should not like to give an actual figure. 21836. Is it increasing ?—That, also, I should not like to answer very positively. I am informed that there is not much immigration. 21837. From both sources, from external accretion and from internal and natural increase?—I think from natural increase it is increasing, but then, of course, a great many of these people get into better circum- stances after a time. 21838. Is the area inhabited by them increasing ?— It is. 21839. They are extending their borders ?—They are extending their borders. 21840. With regard to this paragraph in which I understand you want to make an alteration: "There is overcrowding amongst them, but not of a serious nature, considering their poverty." Do you say that poverty is. not a factor in the overcrowding element; is that what your alteration means ?—I wish to eliminate that altogether, I simply leave it that there is over- crowding amoaugst them. I do not think the fact of a . number of them being poor affects the question. 21841. You do not think poverty is any element in overcrowding ?—Oh, yes ; certainly I do think so. 21842. Then I do not quite understand why you wish to leave that out ?=—Because it is serious, whether it is , due to poverty or whether it is not. 21843. The better-to-do people live under better con - ditions ?—They live under better conditions. 21844. Then it would be among the poorer people that the overcrowding mainly exists?—Yes, and due largely to poverty . 21845. What stepis> do the Jewish community and the Jewish Board of Guardians take to discourage immi- gration into Manchester ?—I am informed that they give so little relief to anybody who has been here under six months that it practically amounts to nothing. 21846. Would you say that in cases where relief is given, that is an attractive force ?—Yes ; necessarily that would encourage people to come. 21847. But, by being very careful in what they dis- tribute, they discourage it to that extent ?—Yes, I should say so, decidedly. 21848. Do they discourage immigration from other towns in England as Well as from the Continent, do you know ?—Of course, where discouragement exists it would apply all round. 21849. To both classes ?—Yes. 21850. Therefore, the people who come to Man- chester are, more or less, people, you would think, with a position in life, with a trade, oi some means of earning a living when they arrive in Manchester; or do they come on the chance there ?—It is very difficult for- me to say. Some of theifr earn very low wages, and I should assume from that fact that a certain proportion of them come on the chance. 21851. The wages among a certain class of them are small ?—Amongst new-comers, sottie of them get very small wages. 21852. Then, with regard to the special steps taken with regard to sanitation, Miss BlumenthaPs appoint- ment, and so on, that pointed to a special need in that particular quarter of the town, did it not?—I have ex- plained that the Jewish Ladies' Health Association wished an additional visitor in their districts, and instead of doling that, the Corporation thought that it would be- more useful to have a house-to-house visitor in the very worst Jewish quarters. 21853. Then you say, as regards the greeners, those already established for some time complain that they undercut their fellows in point of wages ?—Yes ; I am informed that that is so. Of course, that is only what I have been told. 21854. Then you say, "If this exists to a very large extent it will undoubtedly be a serious evil, but it is- difficult to say the extent of this factor " ?—Yes ; what information I have points to the factor in Manchester not being a large one. 21855. It has not become a burning question there T —Not in Manchester. 21856. Then you say you are inclined to believe- " that the Jewish foreign colony in Manchester has, so* far, not been prejudicial to the welfare of the city." If it were very largely to increase, do you think that, prejudice would arise?—I have not considered that question; that is rather a difficult question to answer. 21857. I want to know your opinion as to the assimila- tive and digestive power of Manchester to take on a largely-increased population. Would you put a limit, to that ?—I do not know how a limit is going to be put- That seems tome to be the fundamental difficulty. 21858. Would you regard it with apprehension or not,, setting aside one's power of dealing with it or otherwise, or how would you regard it, supposing a very large- influx were commenced and continned?—That is a matter, is it not, more of general opinion, rather than a sanitary question ? If you ask me purely upon the point of sianitary matters, I can answer you. 21859. On sanitary grounds, too. You touched upon the question, in your evidence, of the under-cutting of wages, and you touched also on the sanitary question. Taking it broadly, how would you regard a very large accretion?—I think the existing means of sanitary ad- ministration, if fully carried out, should be sufficient to insure a reasonable degree of good sanitary conditions* 21860. With regard to accommodation, is there un- limited capacity to take in people from outside ? Would, there be any difficulty in accommodation if the borders, of this colony were widely extended, or rapidly ex- tended ?—Of course, any large immigration creates diffi- culties, and that must necessarily be so. You cannot escape from that, but, as a matter of fact, our cities are all growing rapidly, and this question of overcrowding in the centre of the city arises, necessarily, irrespective of the Jewish population! altogether. 21861. Quite so ; but it is an added factor in that difficulty. A large immigration into any particular town from outside would be an added factor to deal with, would it not ?—Yes, no doubt that would be $0'. 21862. Pro tanto ?—(Pro tanto ; it would be an increase of the difficulty, certainly. 21863. Then you say: " It is very desirable that there should be, if possible, medical examination before or on landing." I take it from that that you would not allow people in a physically unfit state to land indiscrimin- ately, if you could prevent it?—If it were possible to darry out such an exclusion, I should not; but I am afraid I fail to isee the possibility of controlling that. 21864. You do not think that the same control which . is exercised in America and other countries could be exercised here ?—I do not know what degree of control is exercised in America. , 21865. You have not studied what- is done in America ? —I do not know the facts sufficiently intimately to enable me to' say. May I ask you to read the next sentence to the one you referred to, because I would rather substitute that for the one you 'have read. 21866. "It is probably desirable that the sanitary authorities should have power to enforce cleanliness of clothing and persons, but any such power should be a general one " ?—Yes ; it is not only immigrants who are very dirty. 21867. I am not talking of dirt in clothing; I am talk- ing of specific disease?—What specific disease are you referring to ? 21868. Infectious diseases and so forth?:—Infectious diseases, on landing, would be taken to the hospital. I do not think I have said anything about infectious diseases; that is>, except with that object in view. 21869. A medical examination of the immigrants on or before landing would be with reference to what disease?—With regard to their physical unfitness for the struggle for life.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 799 21870. That was the point I wais on. Then you say tihere is a colony of Poles and Lithuanians, mostly Catholics ?—Yes. 21871. Are they in tihie same quarter of the town, or in a different quarter?—No, they are adjoining, across the River Irk. They are separated from the Jewish Dr. J. Niven, portion by the River Irk. m.a., m.b. 21872. How are these people employed ?—In the same ^ j£av ^993 kinds of trades. . The tables referred to in the evidence of the witness were handed in, and are as follows:— TABLE A. Deaths and Death rates in Groups of Ages for the City of Manchester during the Years, 1900-02. All Ages. 0 to 5 Years. 5—15. 15—25. 25—45. 45—65. 65+ Population--Middle of 1901 546,408 64,374 112,352 112,642 165,418 . 76,261 15,361 Deaths—- All Causes, 1900-2 35,699 14,002 1*433 . 1,506 5,480 8,223 5,055 Death Rates—All Causes - 21*78 72-50 4-25 4-46 11-04 35-94 109-69 Deaths from Phthisis, 1900-2 3,423 55 136 477 1,673 983 99 Death Rates—Phthisis - 2*09 0-28 0-40 1-41 3-37 4-30 2-15 Deaths and Death rates in Groups of Ages for the City of Manchester during the Years, 1900-02. Deaths and Death rates in Jewish Districts, 1900-02. All Causes. All Ages. Under 5. 5—15. 15—25. 25—45. 0 CO 1 r* 65+ Death's • - -..... 842 377 33 47 108 169 108 Death Rate....... 16-99 55-88 3-13 3-92 7-87 30-08 118-03 Population - - - - - - - 16,517 2,249 ! 3,515 3,999 4,576 1,873 305 Phthisis. Deathsi - -...... 65 1 1 17 28 18 0 Death Rate - 1-31 015 0-09 1 *42 2-04 3-20 •— All Causes. Excluding His Majesty's Prison, 1,028 ; Boys' Refuge, 250; Workman's Home, 100; the rate from All Causes ! is 17-64; Phthisis, 1*21.800 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Br. Ji Niven, m. a., m.b. TABLE B.—Showing the Nationalities and Degrees of Crowding in Three Districts. l l! May 1903. STRANGEWAYS. Number of Rooms per House. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9, 10. Irish : Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - - - - - 1 - - - - English: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - - 1 1 1 12 18 3 3 9 9 1 - - Polish: Houses with under 2 persons per room r Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - - 1 16 2 29 2 5 11 1 15 1 - 1 - Russian: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - - 3 3 2 63 14 14 170 22 14 53 1 1 20 1 5 4 - German : Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - - 1 3 11 2 7 1 - - - Austrian: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - . - 1 1 .7 1 29 5 7 - - - 1 Roumanian: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room - _ 5 2 1 1 - _ _ Spanish: Houses with under 2 persons per room - - - - - 1 - - - - Palestine: Houses with under 2 persons per room - - - - 1 - - - - - French: Houses with under 2 persons per room - - - 1 - - - - - - Hungarian: Houses with under 2 persons per room - - - 1 - - - - - RED BANK. Number of Rooms per House. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. Irish: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - 1 1 - 2 - - - English : Hoiises with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room ' - 3 4 12 1 3 1 2 7 3 1 1 Polish: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - 1 4 1 1 6 2 2 2 4 - Russian: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - 2 3 6 30 8* 24 65 13 9 69 9 7 22 4 2 5 1 German: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room _ _ 2 1 1 4 1 2 1 - Austrian: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - .. - - 3 1 3 2 1 1 _ Hungarian : Houses with under 2 persons per room - - - - - - 1 Roumanian: Houses with over 2 persons per room - - 1 - - - - -MINUTES- OF EVIDENCE. 801 ANGEL MEADOW. Number of Booms per House. i 1 I- 1 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 12. I Irish ; Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room 1 11 1 2 o 3 4 1 - - 1 English: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room 1 28 9 7 19 4 2 35 1 7 2 2 2 - Polish: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room] Houses with over 2 persons per room - 1 4 1 1 - - - Russian: Houses with uuder 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - 2 4 1 3 7 ■2 3 - - German : Houses with under 2 person- per room Houses with 2 persons per rooih Houses with over 2 persons per room - _ - - 2 1 1 1 - - - Austrian: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - 1 1 2 1 - - - Scotch: Houses with under 2 persons per room Houses with 2 persons per room Houses with over 2 persons per room - - - 1 - - - TABLE C. STRANGEWAYS. RED BANK. ANGEL MEADOW. Total Number of Houses. Sanitary defects, such as c efective yards, closets, dirt, disrepair, &c. Total Number. Sanitary defects, such as defective yards, closets, dirt, disrepair, &c. Total Number. Sanitary defects, such as defective yards, closets, dirt, disrepair, &c. Irish...... 1 1 4 2 26 3 English -..... 58 30 38 21 119 18 Polish...... 84 42 23 19 7 3 Russian...... 390 223 279 214 22 7 German...... 25 14 12 10 5 2 Austrian..... 52 20 11 fi 5 1 Roumanian..... 9 5 1 - — Spanish...... 1 1 — — — Palestine..... 1 1 — — — French ...... 1 — ' — — — Hungarian ------ 1 — 1 — — Scotch ...... — — — — 1 Total - - - 1 623 — 369 — 185 Dr. J. Niven, m.a., m.b. 11 May 1903. T>144, 5 1ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. Israel Roth, called ; and Examined. Mr* JL Both. 21873 {Sir Kenelm Digby.) I understand you wish, to- —call the attention of the Commission to the evidence that May 1993. has been givekn. by Mr. S. Levy, .a master baker?—Yes. I live at 24, Gossett Street, Bethnal Green, E. I am the Secretary of the East London Bakers' Union, which is a registered trades union. I am sent here officially by xl lull majority to contradict the evidence given by Mr. S. Levy, of 11)2, Hanbury Street, in which lie made -a statement which is absolutely not true. ({Lord Rothschild.) I may say before you make your statement that Mr. Levy is in the room, and has brought his books and statements to prove his statements and his facts. I do not know what the feeling of the Com- mission is, but I do not think we should have an inter • ^minable wrangle between: these two witnesses. ^21874. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) No. Will you just call attention to the 'specific things which you say are inac- . curate. Do not use strong language unless you can help it. I will refer to the evidence which was given by Mr. Levy. Lord Rothschild asks him this: "You . are Chairman of the London Jewish Master Bakers' ; Society? (A.) Yes." What do you say to that?—I must contradict it, and must say that there is mo Master .Bakers' Association in existence. 321875. That is one thing. What is the next? Mr .'Levy goes on to say, " Our society represents about 60 -Jewish masters " 1—That is incorrect. I have here a list < of all the Jewish master bakers, who- number about 42 {(pnodAwdng list), 21876. You say there are 42, and Mr. Levy says there are 60 ?—Yes. .J21877. Is that all ?—Yes. *21878. (Mr. Lyttelton.) There are 18 too many ?—Yes. 21879. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is what you wish to ;; say ?—There are some more points that I want to call attention .to. .21880. (Mr.. Lyttelton.) How do you know that there is no Master Bakers' Society ? Are you personally - acquainted with all the master bakers?—Yes, I am. 21881. Have you asked them whether they have a Society ?—I know perfectly well there is none. I have made an investigation and found out that there is no isueh association at all. *21882. I want to know what sort of investigation you have made. Have you asked every master baker whether he belongs to an association?—I have. 21883. How many have you asked?—I have asked m©a.rly all of them. 121884. All the 42?—Yes. I went round to them, and that is how I collected their names and addresses. 'Then in paragraph (a) of hisi evidence Mr. Levy says: "-"Number of hours worked per week:—Sunday 12, Wednesday 12, Monday 12, Thursday 12, Tuesday 12, Friday 13—in all, the Jewish baker works 74 hours per week." Here I have a statement with regard to that. You will see this is a bill by which we call a Conference -of master bakers and men, and these are the very v hours—74 hours—which we demanded at that confer- ence. Now, if it be a fact that the men were really em- ployed 74 hours, we, as a trades union, might pro- bably ask for less, but we would not ask at a, Conference that we should only work 74 hours if the men were ixeally employed 74 hours. "21885. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You say they work more 'than 74 hours ?—They work as much as 108, 112, and 120 hours a week. '21886. You say that 74 hours per week is too small a ^figure, and that the figures you have given are the correct ones?—Yes. 21887. Now, is there anything else ?-—Then Mr. Levy says t " Minimum amount of wages paid : •—First hand, from £2; second hand, from 28s, ; third and fourth hands, from 25s. per week. (The third hand is prac- tically an; improver, and the fourth hand is a labourer. T$o»th are unskilled.)" Now, as regards the £2 a week for foreman, there may be perhaps three or four places in. the East End of London kept by Jewish master "bakers where a foreman does receive £2 or £2 5s. a •week. As a matter of fact, there are places where a [foreman even receives £2 10s. a week, but there are onlv about four such places in the Vhole of the City. In this place, where the forcmnn d es receive £2 10s. a week, he has to do the work by two ovens. One man is employed by two ovens. In the other places a foreman receives as the highest wage 35s., where a second hand receives 25s., and a third and fourth hand from 12s. up to £1. Now, would that statement of Mr. Levy really be true ? I have a state- ment here which we laid before the Conference, and we demanded the very same wages which had been stated, in evidence here before the Commission. t 21888. You say there was a statement put before thf Conference in which you demanded the wages which are mentioned in the statement of Mr. Levy as bein^ the minimum amount of wages now paid?—Yes. What 1 say is, would this be so, because we would not ask at the Confernce for it if it was so. 21889. That is an inference we can follow. You ?ay you are asking for what Mr. Levy says is already given P —Yes. 21890. Is there anything else you wish to say with regard to his evidence?—Then he says, "This works out at the rate of about—'first hand, 7d. per hour; second hand, 4fd. per hour; third and fourth hands, 4Jd. per hour/' I have a handbill here which is printed in Yiddish, but I have a correct translation made of it into English. That states the wages are : " The foreman would receive 36s. per week, or 4Jd. per hour ; the second hand, 27s. per week, or 2fd. per hour ; the third hand, £1 per week, or 2Jd. per hour; the fourth hand, 17s. per w*eek, or lfd. per hour." The total number of hours per week would be 108. The handbill reads as follows : " To all Journeyman Bakers,—Is it possible to believe that, in this twentieth century, Jewish bakers will work 108 hours per week and for ljd. per hour? At a public meeting of Jewish bakers, held on Friday •evening, the secretary, Israel Roth, gave a report of the investigations he'made as to the conditions and hours of labour. The men start work at 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon and leave off at 11 o'clock on Sunday morning. That would be 19 hours at a stretch. Work is restarted at 5 o'clock on Sunday afternoon and ceases at 11 o'clock on Monday, a matter of 18 hours. On Monday work is resumed at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, •ceasing at 9 o'clock on Tuesday—16 hours. On Tuesday they go in at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, leaving off at 7 on Wednesday morning—14 hours. Work is again commenced at 5 o'clock on Wednesday and ceases at 9 on Thursday—16 hours. On Thursday they start work at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, and do not leave off until 2 o'clock on Friday afternoon; that would mean 25 hours. Total, 108 hours, which is called a week's work. For these hours the foreman would receive 36s. per week, or 4Jd. per hour; the second hand, 27s. per week, or 2|d. per hour ; the third hand, £1 per week, or 2^d. per hour; the fourth hand, 17s. per week, or ljd. per hour. In addition, the 17s. man must help to serve bread on the rounds. Needless to say, these conditions and hours are imposed by Jewish master bakers, some of whom hold responsible positions in the synagogues." 21891. I think we see what your contradictions are. You give these details to show what you say are the in- accuracies in the statement made by Mr. Levy to the effect that they work 74 hours ?—Yes. 21892. You say it is 108?—Yes. Could it be really 74 hours ? We, as a trades union, would only be too pleased to get 74 hours-. 21893. You have stated that already and I think we follow it. Does that conclude all you have to say?—« No, there is another point which I should like to men- tion. Mr. Levy says : " Every man in addition to his wage receives daily bread and flour enough for his family." That may be so. Every man may receive per- haps a quartern of bread every day, but that would not be enough for his family. Surely if a man has a wife and five or six children a quartern of bread would not be enough to keep the whole family? 21894. (Lord 'Rothschild.) Mr. Levy did not say that he gave bread ?—Yes, he says so in his statement. 21895. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is a small point. You say he may receive daily bread and flour, but not enough for his family ?—He does not receive flour daily. He only receives a quartern of flour once a week, and that is on Friday. Then with regard to what he says about bakers' shops being closed on the Sabbath, I say it is not so—I mean on Saturday. We have men who go in to work on Saturday morning at 7 o'clock. Of course, we should only be too pleased if they could do away with it. We want to do away with; Saturday labour, if possible. A man when he leaves work on Friday night has comeMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 80S back again in the evening to put tlae dishes in, and then the n'(cor- rect., some statement which you say ds inaccurate; but you must not contradict what has- not been said. = (Major Kvdns-Gordon.) This witness has not been here before. (Witness.) It would not be right on Mr., Levy?s part to come here .and use the union %s a whip.. That should never be allowed. We only want what is right. .... £1901.: (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We are- quite -ready .to hear anything you. say is inaccurate in Mr. Levy's state- ment ?~—do not get paid for my day'-s. Work L cannot see that I get a holiday.: 1 21904: (Sir KeMm Digby.) Is that all you have to sayP—No. Mr. .Levy says : " The amalgamation "be- tween master and man." I am the secretary of the unionr and as far as I know I can say there is no amalgamation between master and man. We had a conference with the masters. 21905. (Mr. Lyttelton.) He does not say so. He says: " To prevent inconvenience in the trade and to be abte to settle ail 'disputes that might arise between master ftntl taaii."7 ThatOne thing. Then he says: '"The Master Bakers' 'Society has amalgamated with the Journeymen's Union of Bakers." That is the only statement of fact that • general trepd of your statement that there is consider- able, disco^ among the workers in the Jewish baking. industry ?—Yes. 21923. Would. that describe what you feel about it V —Yes,. \ 21924. How many .men are there-emplayedi; in. this■ trade ?—A.bout 200. 21925. 300 Jewish bakers '?—Journeymen. 5 I 2804 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. /. Both. 21926. How many have von got in your union?—• —- 162. il May^903. 21927 Out of 200?—Yes. 21928. Then there are very few outside the union ?— Yes. 21929. Does that represent the total amount of the people employed in the Jewish baking industry in the East End?—Oh, no; we have got about 36 or 40 un- employed out of 160. 21930. Why are not the others included in the union ? -—There are several reasons. Of course, we have oppo- nents. For instance, we have in the East End a Jewish paper called t^e "Jewish Express," which is trying its utmost to oppose its, and for no other reason than because we do not give them the printing to do. Why we do not give thein the printing to do is because they do not employ union labour. 21931. It is not a. trades union journal P—No. 21932. You say that the Jewish journeymen are em- ployed on Saturday by the Jewish master bakers?— Not by all of them. 21933. By some?—Yes. 21934. Where are these bakehouses ? Are they situated all over the district?—Yes, all over the East End. 21935. Are they small or large bakehouses mostly ?— I should say they are most of them small, and some of them large. Even the bakehouse of Mr. Levy is only about eight or nine feet square, and three men are employed in it. 21936. Would you say that the conditions in these bakehouses are bad?—Some of them. 21937. Are many of them below ground?—A good many. 21938. Do you say that Mr. Levy himself employs his men on Saturday?—Only one man to take the dishes -out. 21939. That is not a very considerable thing. That has to be done ?—If a man does not work on Saturday it ought not to be done. 21940. How about these 108 hours that you say are worked in the baking industry ? If you say a man is employed for 108 hours, is he really working for 108 "hours in the week?—Yes. 21941. Does he not get a lot of lounging about and lying about and resting between whiles in the different operations of baking?—I should not call having a cup of tea a rest for two hours. I can have a cup of tea in five minutes. 21942. I want to know what the conditions are?— JEIe may have a cup of tea and slice of bread, but I should not caW that two hours' rest. I could have it in two minutes ; in fact, I could have two cups of tea in five minutes. 21943. Generally speaking, you would say that the feeling between masters and men in the Jewish baking industry in the East End, both as regards hours and wages, is not satisfactory at present ?—Not at all. There may be three or four master bakers who pay a reason- able wage, and there may also be about two master bakers who employ their men, I should say, 11 and 12 hours a day. 21944. Is there any under-cutting due to the arrival of aliens from abroad ?—No, I do not think so. 21945. They do not undercut prices ?—I do not think so. 21946. Is it not the fact, or it was reported, at all events—I do not know whether you were present—that at that conference which you spoke of between Jewish master bakers and workmen, one of the employers said it did not matter what the men demanded, because they could always get as much cheap labour as they wanted ?—Not to my recollection. 21947. That was reported in the account of the con- ference. Was your attention not directed to that point ? —No. 21948. (Lord Bothschild.) Do I understand you to say that the editor of the " Jewish Express" printed a statement against you ?—He printed a statement against that bill which I have produced. 21949. The editor of the " Jewish Express " is here, and he wishes to say he has never spoken or printed a word against a workmen's union, and he denies what you stated, and he wishes to be called to deny it ?—The number of the paper is still in existence, and the very same paper issued a very bitter statement against the men according to this bill. I should like to sa,y another word. I have here a cutting where Mr. Levy himself admitted at a conference that he employed his men from 90 to 96 hours a week (producing newspaper cut- ting). 21950. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I have got the quota- tion which I referred to, and in order to make it; clear that I am not speaking from rcere hearsay, I should like to read it: "The Jewish master bakers held a meeting on Wednesday, when the correspondence with the Chief Rabbi was discussed. While some of the mas- ters were in favour of meeting the men in a friendly spirit, others were determined upon a fight to a finish, as one of them said, 'We can get plenty of greeners from the Jews' shelter in Leman Street.' Eventually it was decided to listen to the demands of the men." That is the quotation I referred to?—I have not seen it to my knowledge. I know nothing about it. Mr. S. Levy, re-called. y' (Witness.) I would ask the Commission to be good enough to allow me, as my statement has been con- demned, to put before you very important items which will show you that my statement was quite correct. (Sir- Kenelm Digby.) You will be as short as you can. There are two or three points on which your evidenca has been said to be inaccurate, and I think you are entitled to say what you want to say on those points. 21951. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You have been contradicted on this point first. You said in your statement that the hours were 74 hours a week, and it is said that they .are more. A report of a meeting has been produced, in which you are represented as having said on the 1st February, 1903, that your men only worked from 85 to 90 hours a week, and in other shops they worked from SO to 85 ?—I must explain that the bakery trade is not the tailoring trade. When a tailor comes in, as soon as he comes in he starts working. I would explain to you with regard to baking, if the weather is cooler the work takes longer, and if the man who works the oven makes the oven cold, the bread has to stop in the oven half an hour or an hour longer than the usual time. How can the master be responsible for this? 21952. (Sir Kendm Digby.) Please confine yourself to the statement. Do you adhere to the statements you made in your former evidence?—Yes. 21953. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You say with regard to the number of hours worked per week, " In all, the Jewish bakers work 74 hours per week " ?—Yes. 21954. That is not consistent with the statement, if it is correctly reported, that you made in February, that your men worked 85 or 90 hours per week ?—I say some of them may waste a certain number of hours in those 85 or 90 hours and not be working. 21955. Do you say this report is accurate ?—I remem- ber the time when we had that conference, and when I said that. 21956. Do you mean to say that 74 hours per week was proper work ?—*74 hours' labour. 21957. But that men, by their carelessness, might make it longer ?—Yes, they might, because they do not work all the hours. 21958. The second thing said about your evidence was that you were incorrect when you stated that the first hand was paid from £2 per week and the second hand from 3s. ?—I have here my wagje book, and it says there : " First hand, £2 5s. ; second hand, £1 Ss. 6d. ; third hand, £1 4s." That is signed by the very work- men, and I could fetch a dozen or two to prove it. (Producing a booh and explaining the same to the Com- mission.) 21959. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Those are your work- men ?—'Yes. 21960. (Mr. Lyttelton. Then Mr. Roth denied that there was any Society of Master Bakers ?—On that question first of all I have got here a form which says : " East London Bakers' Union and Master Bakers' Asso- ciation." Then I have papers here which show thatMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 305 fthree or four years ago there was a Jewish. Master ^Bakers' Association, We kept our account in the Post Office Savings Bank, and it was in the name of the * Jewish 'Master Bakers' Association. I can prove that TJby the Chief Rabbi. We had cases before him with iregard ty disputes between bakers, and it was re- cognised as the Jewish Master Bakers' Association. Mr. Israel Roth's mame is on this document, where the Asso- ciation has been recognised as being the Jewish Master "Bakers' Association. (.Handing documents to the Com- mission.) The same document is signed by the very same union working-men who are receiving wages. 21961. (Major Evans Gordon.) How many members are there in the Masters' Union?—About 60, as I said. Perhaps 58 or 56. 21962. In the union ?—In the society. 21965. They are a united society?—Yes. 21964. How long has it been in existence %—I have "been chairman myself for the last four years, and it was :in existence before I joined it. 21965. What constitutes membership of the associa- tion? Bo they pay a subscription?—'Yes, a subscrip- tion of Is. a week. 21966. Each master?—'Each master used to pay Is. a "week, but now we have reduced it to 6d. a week, because we do not want the money. $1967. Has there been trouble between master and & Levy. men in your'Tmking industry ?■—'There has been trouble — ' for not recognising the union. We paid union wages, n May..1903, but we did not- want to know whether a man wasi an —— union or non-union man, as long as we paid him fair wages for fair hours. 21968. Are there many men employed in your trade outside the union—non-unionists?—I could not tell, because I do not know who are union men and who are non-union men. We never ask the question. 21969. Then do you jnake any objection to them?-—' We make no objection whatever, whether they are union men or not. 21970. You will not consider the employment of only union men ?—This amalgamation was for only employ- ing union men. 21971. Is that the case now?—Yes. 21972. Has there ever been a strike in the trade?— Yes. 21973. What did you do for labour when the strike was on?—We could not get any workmen. 21974. Did the baking trade come to an end ?—It was; very bad. We could not get any bread out. 21975. Did the price of bread rise ?—No, there was no difference. Mr. Henry Corbett Jones, called; and Examined. 21976. Mr. Vallance.) You are Town Clerk and .Solicitor to the Borough of Holborn?—Yes. 21977. You are authorised by the council to give the ♦Commissioners any information in your power ?—Yes. 21978. You were born in St. George's, Bloomsbury, <&nd you have practised for nearly 20 years as a solicitor in that locality ?—Yes. 21979. And for over sixteen years you were clerk to the Board of Works for the St. Giles' district, and you .also filled other public appointments, including that of vestry clerk to the parishes of St. Giles' and St. Creorge's, Bloomsbury?—Yes. 21980. What is the population of the borough?—On 4)he 31st March, 1901, it was 59,405. 21981. We will not trouble about the parishes, but ;you say the borough extends from the Metropolitan -Railway in Farringdon Street to Tottenham Court .Road ?—Yes. 21982. And from the back of the Royal Courts of Justice on the south side to Gordon and Tavistock .Squares ?—Yes, almost to the Euston Road. 21983. What is your estimate of the number of aliens in the district ?—5,700. 21984. What percentajge of th;e entire population -would that be ?—It is equal to about 9 per cent. 21985. You have a large number of registered com- jrnon lodging houses, have you not ?—42. 21986. With accommodation for 2,397 lodgers ?—Yes. 21987. Then you have 596 tenement lodging houses? —Yes. 21988. Registered under the Public Health Act?— Yes, under regulations. 21989. With reference to this alien population, you Iiave about 9 per cent ?—Yes. 21990. Have they, within your experience, created any iproblem in relation to the sanitary administration of the borough ?—-No, I do not think so. 21991. Do you desire that this analysis of the aliens ■should be put in ?—I do. I thought it would be useful lo the Commissioners. The alien population of London is 135,377, of whom 5,706 are in Holborn—^consisting of 3,978 males, 1728 females. The numbers ar;± Italians, 1,519 males, 510 females; Germans, 793 males, 305 females; French, 374 males, 286 females; Americans, 345 males, 266 females; Swiss, 202 males, 45 females ;Austrians, 161 males, 18 females ; Russians, 141 males, 99 females. Nearly ©very nationality is re- presented in the population. This alien population is distributed over the wards of the borough in the follow- ing manner:—-North Bloomsbury, 463 males, 184 females ; South Bloomsbury, 716 males, 303 females ; Lincoln's Inn, 111 males, 46 females ; Saffron Hill, 133 males, 45 females; North St. Andrew, 118 males, 53 females; South East- St. Andrew, 1,149 males, 439 females; St. George the Martyr, 248 males, 130 Mr. females ; Central St. Giles, 665 males, 287 females ; H. C. Jones North St. Giles, 365 males, 232 females. - 21992. Do you desire to read these figures a.s to the occupation of the aliens ?'—I think it would be desirable, because this information is not otherwise available. The Registrar-General has been good enough to have these figures taken out for me. Of this alien popula- tion, so far as those over 10 years- of age are concerned, the largest number engaged in any one trade are the Italians, of whom 181 are returned as costermongers, hawkers, and street sellers ; 148 are engaged in service in inns, hotels, and eating houses ; 194 are employed as paviors and road labourers, while the occupations of the residue a,re distributed over a wide area of employment. Of the total number of Italians, 107 males and 322 females are returned a,s retired or unoccupied. 21993. Now will you briefly say how you analyse the Germans ?—Of the 1,098 Germans, 108 males are em- ployed in service in inns, hotels, or eating-houses; 63 males and 2 females as commercial or business clerks; 75 males and 10 females as domestic servants in hotels, lodging and eating-houses.; and 29 males and 53 females as indoor servants in domestic service; 57 males and 33 females as tailors ; 27 males as hairdressers; 37 males as actual makers of bread, biscuits, etc. ; while, of the total population, 69 males and 147 females are returned as retired or unoccupied. 21994. Now we come to the French. Do they occupy themselves as cooky or chefs ?—The men do largely. 21995. And business clerks and dressmakers ana servants in inns, and so on?—Yes. Of the French, of - whom there are 374 males, the largest number are male cooks, of whom there are 57; 31 commercial, or busi- ness, clerks; 39 (female) dressmakers and 22 male ser- vants in inns, hotels, or eating-houses. The residue of the French population is found distributed under nearly every heading of occupation in the Census returns. 21996. Then the Americans ?—There are 55 males and 179 females. Of those engaged in occupations, the largest number appear under the heading of actors. Then there are 247 Swiss, 22 of whom are unoccupied. Of the males the bulk are engaged in domestic service, either as indoor servants in hotels, eating-houses, etc., or as mal© cooks. Then of the Austrians, by far the larger number of the males are engaged in some class of indoor domestic service, principally in inns, hotels, or eating-houses. 21997. Then the Russians?—Of the Russians, 80 ara unoccupied or retired; of the residue, the largest num- ber are engaged as tailors, 54 men and 10 women being returned under this heading. 21998. May I ask whether the presence of the for- eigners in your Borough has tended to overcrowding and rendered the enforcement of the sanitary laws impossible or otherwise?—I say no. In the first place, I do not admit that overcrowding exists in the Borough of Hoi-806 ROYAL COMMIESION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : >Ayi-Mr*. ' born to> any veryseriouisextent, and Ishould ask per- jgr. C." Jones, mission td'refer toj'tHkt.....specifically later on. fep. far as -/A < our; e^petf ieiiee >goes fthfe foreigners • Seefti, if we may use XI May 1903. the %^res$ibir, r&th&r- mbre to herd together than to - o^rcrWd;-r iThe &etua0^examinaHd6n-Gf a number ^ of rooms in what we call the Italian colony, show there was. a very email, proportion of them, overcrowded, and when X -use the; word '' overcrowded " I make a calcula- tion afe'to thesuperficiaL cubical contents, of the room, that there, ought ■ to-be, and; in. some cases we find the pver)crowding.;only , exists with regard to a. portion of a person, j that, is, the room is not quite big enough to hoi 1 a father, mother, and"three cniidren, bnt would be big enough to hold the father, mother, and 2J- children. 21990,' (Sir Kenelm Digby.)^ " Measured ''by* "what standard P—The same ' standard that exists under the regulations made with regard to ten^meiit''lodging- houses. We use that as our standard. 2200ft. (Lord tBothsehild.y^^would>.ilot call it really overcrowding?—No-, I should not. Technically, it may be. 22001. (Mr. Whltance.) Are the •aliens - in your borough increasing? No, «I do not think so.' I sfiould liketo qualify that by saying that I think the number of pros- titutes is increasing. : ..... 22002. Does the presence of the foreigners in your borough render it difficult to enforce the sanitary laws? —No, I do not see why it is any more difficult to enforce the sanitary law with a foreigner living in a house than it is with regard to a Britisher. : 22003. I understand you to say in your statement that '} v the presence of the foreigners does undoubtedly render ...._______ the enforcement of the Public Health Acts more diffi- cult?—That is so; that is to'i say, the presence of them, but. it does not render it impossible. The question you asked me was whether it renderM it impossibley I sa.y they may require more supervision and more vigilance, tut there is no< impossibility about it. 22004. Has it been within your experience that the rents of such portions of the houses and tenements occu- pied by the poorer classes have increased of late years ?•— All the rents in central London have , gone up, in conse- quence of the very large clearances that there have been for improvements, aud the demand that there is for people to get accommodatioii near their work.. v 522005. Has that increase been occasioned by, the dis- placement of native population ?-—I do^ not think so. ; 22006. There has been a certain displacement ?—Oh, yes, there is no doubt about that*> ; 22007. Do you attribute the increase-of 'Mats in any respect at all to' the presence in theborougliof the alien population?—I find from inquiries that the aliens are ■witling to s s give a higher rent very often than the Britisher is. 22008. (Mr. Lyttelton.) And. they make it up by sub- letting?—They make it up by sub-letting. The foreigners will sleep under very much more uncom- (ortable circumstances than the British people would. 22009. (Mr. Vcillance.) Would you like to say whether or not the native tradesman I suffers through ^foreign . immigration ?-—No, certainly - not in the Borough of Holborn. The inquiries I have made show that the foreign population- is a very important, element ini the tradesman'» takings, certainly in the vicinity of Hatton Garden &nd Leather Lane, which is close to the foreign colony. • ■ 22010. The tendency of the foreigners of various 'nationalities is to aggregate together ?—Yes. It is very extraordinary how they get together in a particular neighbourhood. I have taken. the figures out, and 1 find the' Italians are nearly- all • together, 'and that in a waird known as the South-east St.: Andrew, which is •close- to Saffron Hill, there were 1,149 males and 439 ^male' alieinls. ;322011. Excepting the Jewish; population, do you find there is a tendency to assimilate by inter-marriage ?— No. . \ , ^22012. They keep very much to themselves?—Tery much. 22013. That is not confined to the Jewish population only ?—Oh, no. • 22014. What has been, from your point of view, the %ekheralveffett1 upon,: the ^district fey the introduction of ^lifens T d(i ndt think it has been prejudicial. Perhaps • our experience is somewhat! curious. This, population ^&as^^ so long ih Holborn, j.t:rticulairly tlie Italian;'population; that it 'has become quite part aUd< parcel of-our existence there. 22015. You have only 9 per cent, foreign population, and, of course, it has scarcely any appreciable effect £ —Yes. A very large number of1 them, clerks, ' and so on,, are engage! away from the neighbourhood all the- day vin City offices. 22016. Then the crowding - of the • foreigners cannot, he a factor in any;overcrowding that does- exist?—No. 22017. Does- overcrowding, as* a fact, exist, to anj large extent ?'—No:. 22018. You have probaibly seen the evidence of Mi\ Francis Birch?—Yes, and I must ask:the Gommis&iom to be allowed to make a perfectly positive statement, with regard to it, and not an argumentative one. , 22019. Have .you the questions that were put to Birch, and his answers to them?'—No, I have not seen, the official record, but a report of his evidence is con- tained in the " Jewish Chronicle " of the 13th Marclv and in the " Jewish World " of the same date. 22020. I will read two or three questions that wera> put to him. A question was put by me at No. 14799 trTliere is a general understanding that you act in co- operation with the Borough Council. (A) Yes, buL when I send cases, although I am under a penalty for not reporting, yet when they are reported to them, they seldom ever do anything " ?—That is untrue. 22021. Then he was. asked : "What has been done* within your knowledge with regard to this question of overcrowding ? (A.) Very little indeed. I put it to the-, medical officer the other day about this very locality,, arid he said, ' But suppbsing they were to do it, and- were to make better house accommodation, you will have all the Italians occupying those houses,' I told him I failed to see that that was a reason why it should not be done for the accommodation and health of the*- public." What would you say to that?'—I have re- duced what I am going to say into, writing in answer to* his statements, but there is something more in his* evidence that I hope I shall be allowed to direct the- Commissioners' attention to with regard to the members of the Public Health Committee. May I read the- newspaper report of his evidence ? 22022. (Mr. Lyttelton.)Perhaps if I read the official report you will see whether it coincides with the report, you have. I may say I have marked these passages, in his evidence as being matters for you to deal with.. At Question 14823 Sir Kenelm Digby says uI gather- that you say the overcrowding has been very bad ins your "district?—(A.) Yes, very. (Q.) And you think more, might have been done by the local authorities ?— (A.) Certainly. (Q.) Do you see any practical difficulty in. enforcing the law more stringently?—{A.) No, not. at all. Some of the houses belong to the gentlemen who get on to the Board. That is the only fault of it." Then the Chairman asks : " Is the Board the municipal council?—(A.) The Borough Council. The committee- lis at goes round to see these kitchens and overcrowded places are mostly the- men who own the places. In one division that is so at the present moment, and has always been so since I have been in the district. Then Sir Kenelm Digby asks : " Do you see much im- provement in the disposition to enforce the law against. Ay^rcrowding-—is there much improvement to what there used to be?—(A.) Not in Holborn—none at all. In one house alone the police reported to me nine- people living in one room. I immediately sent it in, hut was told nothing was ever done. (Q.) Have you any fault to. find with the law? Do you think the law might be strengthened in any way ?—(A.) No, I think there are- enough laws if they are carried out" ?•—What I wish to say is this, that by the .instructions of the Public Health Committee I have thoroughly investigated these allegations.- I have personally searched the whole of the records of the Council since they came into power on.the 9th November, 1900. There was a total of fifteen complaints received from :'Mr. Birch. In ever.y instance* I. find the premises were inspected either on the date the complaint was received or the following day-—not by-the members of the 'Committee,-fbut;by» either the Medical Officer of Health. personally or one of the Council's sanitary inspectors. Of the fifteen com- plaints, three were absolutely unfounded one referred fa a Case over which the Council had* no control, *twoMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 807 to nuisances which the Council's officers had already •discovered, and the works for the abatement of which were at the time of the receipt of the complaint in course of execution. Nine complaints were well iounded, and for these the statutory notices required by the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, were per- sonally signed by me, and in every instance the muisance was abated. Of the fifteen complaints only -three related to overcrowding. Of these, two were un- founded, there being ample space for the occupants of the rooms complained of—and when I say ample -space I mean the air space prescribed by the Lodging .House Regulations. In the third case the room was overcrowded to the extent of a little child ; the room "had been occupied by two adults and three children, th, 1903: " My Lord,—I have heard that Mr. Lyons hais stated that my figures' relating to the wages of the Jewish tailors, as given in my statement of Monday, May 3rd were < false.' I beg to state that they are absolutely correct, and that they refer to the wages earned by Jewish tailors belonging to my union. The wages are : machinists and pressers, practical men, from 8s. to 10s. per day; tailors, first-class men, from 8s. 6d. to 10s. 6d. per day; tailors, second-class men, from 5s. to 7s. per day; seamers or second machinists, from 4s. to 6s. 6d. per day. I may point out that the poster produced by Mr. Lyons was intended to induce non-union men to join the union, that they may earn similar wages. I am prepared to substantiate my statement with a number of wage books, and if required, to attend the Commission to support my figures. In the meantime I humbly beg that this letter may be read before the Commission, as my character has been publicly attacked by Mr. Lyons.—I am, my Lord, your obedient servant, D. Policoff." I think it will be enough if we put that letter upon the notes. It will not be necessary to recall Mr. PoKcoff.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION FORTY-SEVENTH DAI, Thursday, 14th May, 190;} members present ; The Eight Hon. Lord James of Hereford {Chairman). The Right Hon. Lord Rothschild. | Henry Norman Esq., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. | William Vallanoe, Esq. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m,p. | Mr. J. M. Ronaldson, called; and Examined. Mr. J. M. Ronaldson. 14 May 1903. 22035. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are you His Majesty's Inspector of Mines for the Western. District of Scot- land ?—I am. 22056. That comprises Lanarkshire ?—That applies to a part of Lanarkshire only; the greater part of it now. 22037. We have had some evidence before the Com- mission about the employment of foreign workmen in these mines, especially Poles and Russians?—Yes. 22038. Gould you tell us how that stands ? Are they employed at particular mines or all over the country ?— Scan© mines have a good many of these foreign workmen, and others just one or two. They are not confined to any particular part of Lanarkshire. 22039. Could you at all give their numbers?—The mine owners gave me returns in May, 1901, of the num- ber of those Poles or foreign workmen employed by them, and according to the returns given at that time in my part of Lanarkshire, there were 853. 22040. At that time the other part of Lanarkshire and the rest of Scotland were under Mr. Atkinson, a mines inspector, was it not ?—I rather think that these figures -applied to the district before it was altered. You have all the figures, because Mr. Atkinson and I have sent up a return to you. I fancy altogether there would be about some' 1,023 persons employed. 22041. At all events, something over 1,000?—Yes, in Lanarkshire. 22042. That is in 1901?—Yes. 22043. Have they increased since?—I cannot say. I have no statistics since. 22044. From your own observation, do you say they have increased or not ?—From what I hear it is probable they have increased. I may say that these men are only migratory, and birds of passage here. They come over to this country, they start in the mines, and after they have made enough money for their purpose they either go away home or go on to America. They do not come permanently to reside with us. 22045. How about their qualities for working ? What sort of work do they do? Do they do the hewing?— They do the hewing, and they also do the drawing or putting; that is, they push the tubs of coal out from the working face, and they are also employed in some collieries on the surface to some considerable extent. 22046. So far as skill is required, would you call them skilled miners ?—They eventually become pretty skilled workmen. I understand they are principally farm labourers when they come to this country. They know nothing of mining. Some of them have, I believe, some pining experience, but taking them as a rule, thev are ignorant altogether of mining, and it takes some little time for them to get accustomed to the work. 22047. What do you say generally as to their capa- bilities as workmen ?—As to their capabilities as work- men, I think from what I learn, that we may call them good average workmen. 22048. (Chairman.) When they first come ?—Not when they first come. 22049. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How long does it take them to become good average workmen ?—That depends on each man's capabilities. Perhaps in a year or so they can do pretty fair work as miners. 22050. Are you aware of any evil consequences as re- gards safety from the employment of these men ?—Nona' whatever. I have paid most particular attention to this- point since some years ago the representatives of the- miners made allegations that these men were a con- stant source of danger to the other workmen, and that a number of accidents had been caused, because of their ignorance of the language and their ignorance of mining. I have not hitherto come across a, single instance of an. accident reported to me whereby one of these foreigners, was the cause of an accident to another person, though several accidents to themselves have been caused by their own neglect, but so far as I know there1 is not a single case where the life of another man has been en- dangered by them. 22051. Are they amenable to orders, and do they submit to discipline ?—That is a marked feature of their character. I find on all hands, wherever I make in- quiries, that this is a distinctive feature of the Pole~ He is most amenable to orders and obeys instructions,, and that is all the more marked, I think, because of the fact that it is in striking contrast to the conduct of our own miners, a great many of whom, I am sorry to say, are not amenable to discipline. 22052. With regard to* the rules that are put up in. the mines, and so on, can they understand and appre- ciate the rules ?—That is rather a difficult point. In fact, I may say I do not think I should be wrong in saying that more than 50 per cent, of our own miners- never read the rules themselves. They only come to know them by their attention being called to them when they break the rules. That seems to be a feature in this matter. But these rules were translated into their own language, or rather it was Russian, I think, they were translated into, or a, sort of Yiddish—I am not. sure which—some time ago, but it was found that a great many of these people could not read. 22053. Cannot read at all ?—No, and they get to know them through their companions. 22054. Do they get to know the substance of the rules, in fact?—I think they know them in fact pretty well, because when they are once told they are inclined to obey them. 22055. You say they are temporarily resident here. Do they remain for a considerable time—most of them P —They remain four, six, or eight years perhaps. I understand they have no intention of permanently re- siding in the country. 22056. Have they had any effect on wages as far as you know?—I do not think they have had any effect on wages—in fact, at the present moment I am informed by the owners who employ more of these foreign work- men than any other coal owners, they can take at their collieries 100 men, if they can get them, and they can- not get them. 22057. Do they keep any other people out of work ?— No, I do not think so, so far as my information goes. I may say that in Lanarkshire the number of persons employed has been increasing year by year. Last year there were between 400 and 500 more men employed below ground than the previous year. 22058. Can you give us the number of persons em- ployed in order that we may compare the figure of some- thing over 1,000 that you say is the probable numberMINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 809 of foreigners ?—In my part of Lanarkshire the total number of persons employed below ground in 1901, was 24,493. ; 22059. All those Poles would not be employed below ground ?—These Poles that I refer to are all employed below ground practically. 2^060. That is a figure of comparison—something over 1,000 as compared with 24,000 ?—Yes. 22061.; Can you give me anything like the propor- tion ?—I cannot tell that. This return was simply given of foreigners. I believe they are mostly Russian farm labourers. 22062. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are these Jews or Chris- tians?—The greater part of them are Roman Catholic Poles. 22063. {Lord Bothschild.) They are Lithuanian Poles, are they not? (Major Evans-Gordon.) I fancy so. 22064. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With regard to their habits, what have you to say ?—I have here the report made by a police constable employed by Messrs. Badrd and Co. j Limited, who knows them all intimately. It is a very interesting report, and tells you all jibout their habits. 22065. (Chairman.) Perhaps you might summarise it if you can?—He says in Craighead Rows there are 25 dwelling houses occupied 'by Poles, and in Bot'bwell Park there are 30 dwelling houses occupied by Poles ; that is to say, there are 55 houses occupied by Poles that he looks after. In Craighead Rows there were three which he reported as being in a dirty state in his annual Report of Houses, and those three are now clean. Then he says : " In general when Poles arrive in this country they are very poor, degraded-looking people. They are generally iassisted from Russia by a. connection in this country, who is working in the collieries, and who sends money to pay their passage. When this connection re- ceives them he starts them to work, pays them low wages until they get acquainted with the work of the colliery, and refund the cost of coming to this country. The Pole, then, when acquainted with the getting of coal and the working of it, puts his own name into- the col- liery office, and receives full pay for his work. He then saves up money till he, gets the length of £5, the price of his passage back to Russia. He puts this money into the Post Office Savings Banik. Married men come to this country without their wives. After seeing how their married connection gets settled doiwn -to work, he sends .money to his wife in Poland to come away to this .country. Then, again, the Pole has to save as much as £10 to make sure that they have as much money as will taike them home. Every Pole has a Post Office Savings Bank book. Poles, as a rule, are inclined to be dirty, have a tendency to overcrowd their houses, and to keep too many lodgers. But when strictly looked after, and told how many lodgers to keep, and it has been ex- plained to them how to keep their houses clean, they try their very best to please you; if anything they try to be better than their neighbours. When a Polish man or woman is told to do anything by me it is done, but if thejr are not looked after they go back to their dirty haJbits. Grlebe 'Street, Bellshill, where the Poles are not looked after, is an example of their natural habits. Poles are very steady workmen, and never like to be out of work. They will not rest till they get a place in which to work ; thiey are more -anxious to work tfran our British workmen. There are a number of days on which they do not work. Being Roman Catholics they have many saint days. Then he refers: to their marriage customs. 22066. I do not think we need go into that ?—Then he refers to their habits at such times as christening, and ^ at these times they drink ,a little, and sometimes get 'into trouble, 'but that is not an unusual thing with other people. 22067. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What was the occasion of that report being made ?—I asked Mr. Forgie, one of the partners of William Baird -and Co., who was to have given evidence here last week, to get me some informa- tion, and I have a son who is employed at one ol the collieries where a great many of these Poles are, and he told me about this policeman, and I got this report from hiim, as he knew their habits. 22068. Do you generally agree with that from, your experience?—So^ far as I know there is nothing incon- sistent with my knowledge there. 6144. 212069. Is there anything else you wish to add. You Mr. J. if. say something in your statement about the condition of Rovaldson. their houses, but I thinik the report you have read deals -- o with that?—I find that they are easily influenced hy 14 May JL903. others They will follow either good habits or bad habits. . They are very easily led, and they are accused of taking to drink, but I am afraid they are imitating our own miners in that respect. 22070., (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say that they are keen to move on, and that they go back to their homes. How do you know that fact ?—Simply from information. My evidence here is principally from what I can gather. I do not know these men intimately in their habits myself, and my official duty does not bring me in contact with theon in that respect. 22071. But it is supposed they go back ?—Yes. I am informed on very good authority that they either go back or go on to America. 22072. (Chairman.) About how long do they stop here?—They want to stay here until they have got as much money as will serve their purpose. 22073. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) They do not intend to stay permanently ?—So far as I can trace they do not intend to stay permanently. They are all young men • there is not an old man amongst them. 22074. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But their numbers are increasing ?—<1 am not certain. I rather think they are from what I hear, but I have no actual facts. 22075. Since these figures were taken. But whether they go back or not their places are taken, and more than taken, by others who come ?—'Apparently. 22076. You say they are birds of passage, but they stay long enough here to become skilled ?—They do as a rule. 22077. Are these aliens imported, or do they wander to the mines ?—I think principally their friends bring them over. 22078. Since when did these foreigners begin to appear in the mines ?—I have no exact date regarding that. It is a good many years now since they first began to come. 22079. Was there not a strike in 1894?—I fancy there. was a big strike about that time, 22080. Is it not subsequent to that that these people have been coming more and more ?—It is very probable. There has been a gradual steady increase in their number. 22081. Do you say the work in the mines would be diminished, or would not be carried on without these- foreigners?—Oh, no, I do not say that; but unless we had men of our own to take their place at present, there would be a distinct loss. 22082. Do you mean that if these people were not here there would be no English people to undertake their work?—They are all Scotch and Irish. 22083. Scotch and Irish ?—I fancy that would depend upon the state of trade. When trade is brisk the min© owner as a, rule cannot get enough men. On the other hand, if trade is backward then the men are idle, and' there is no work for them. 22084. But broadly speaking, would not the wages • obtained in this employment be sufficient to attract a sufficiency of Scotch and Irish labour ?—I am not sure - about that. If wages go down, as a rule the men vacate the pits. A number of men do, and go back to their - oiwn occupations. They have been attracted by the* higher wages in brisk times to the mines, and when the wages go down they go out of the mines again, and return to their employments. 22085. They do not go underground at once, I under- stand?—Yes, I think they do. 22086. Underground at once 1—Yes, in a great many cases. Of course, they are always under the super- vision of a skilled man. 22087. And you say a perfectly ignorant man, igno- rant of the language and ignorant of the customs of the, mines, is no source of danger ?—That is my own belief, and my reason for it is this : our skilled men think. they know too much, and they risk too much, and they bring upon themselves many accidents on that account. A man freshly going into the mines, by reason of his; ignorance is all the more careful, and does not run risks that a skilled man would do. 5 K810 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. J. M. 22088. Is there not some certificate supposed to be Monaldson. necessary for men going underground ?—There is no ,qao certificate Jiecessary. It is a thing they ought to have, -• y - ' but there is nothing binding in that way. 22089. Why do you say they ought to have ?—Because one of the general rules of the Coal Mines Regulation Act prescribes that no man shall work alone at the coal mines unless he has been working two years. 22090. But that is a thing that is a dead letter?— Oh, no ; I do not think so. Managers try to find it out, but if a man tells a lie it is very difficult to prove it. There is no statutory obligation to present a certificate of that nature. 22091. How long does it take him to become what you call skilled?—That a good deal depends on the skill of the man himself. Some of those seams a navvy can Work—any man who can handle a shovel, because the coal is so easy to get. If the coal is more difficult to work, it takes a man a longer time to do a good day's work. 22092. Do the mine-owners encourage the aliens coming?•—I do not think they object to them; so far as I can understand, they take no means themselves to bring them over. 22093. Have you ever known an .alien to be out of work when natives are out of work ?—That is a question I cannot answer. 22094. You do not know about that ?—I do not know about that. 22095. Why are these men employed in some mines more than others ; is there any explanation of that ?—• I find some managers do riot like them, and other managers do like them. Some managers will not have them. Others find, owing to their being amenable and easy to get on with, and steady workmen, and giving very little trouble, it is an advantage. 2209^. They prefer them to native workers ?—I think they like a mixture. 22097. What about the feeling among the native) workers, Scotch and Irish, with regard to the employ- ment of these people ?—In many places their neigh- bours in the mines get on quite harmoniously with them. 22098. Do you say there is no discontent among the Scotch workmen with regard to the employment of foreigners in the mines ?—Judging from newspaper re- ports, the miners of the unions are dead against them. 22099. (Chairman.) But the individual men?—The - workmen, as a body, are against the Poles. 22100. (Major EvanSr-iGordon.) If there is no displace- ment of native labour, how do you account for the pre- • sent action of the Scotch Miners' Federation ?—I sup- pose they want Scotland for the Scotch, or something like that. I cannot tell what their real reason is. 22101. But it would point to there being discontent at these foreigners being employed ?—I think it is un- doubted that they are discontented at the foreigners being employed, but whether it is tKe body "of the workmen or the union I am not in a position to say. 22102. I have here an extract from a paper called the "Labour Leader," of May 2nd, 1903, in which it is stated: " The question of the employment of Polish workmen in West of Scotland mines is now beginning to< assume a. very serious -aspect. At T'annochsdde Col- liery a large number of them are being employed in ^one of the seams at 5d. per ton, or about Is. a day less than the, rate paid to British miners. The Scottish Miners' Federation have now definitely resolved to in- tervene, and the British Federation will be asked to :-Assjst in bringing all the collieries belonging to Mr. Archibald Russell to a standstill,- if :the management oontinues to employ foreigners at lower rates. The workman' employed in these collieries number 4,000, so that the struggle, if entered upon, will be a ssrious one." Are you aware of that movement?—1I am sorry to say that the " Labour Leader " does not seem to take ^f^ctfl^;ea{re iri getting up the facts.. I have found that befof'e^ knd I fancy they have not taken care to g&t' the ,rfa6ts; up -sufficiently here. Ima.^ say I saw the evidence given last week on this point, and before ■coming iip( he^e I went and saw the agent c'f "'this colliery, 22103. This very Tannochside Colliery ?—Yes. The agent- explains it in jbhis sw^ty The part: where the dis- pute took place is a. new* se^m, being .opened up. It w being worked by what is termed the " long wall system " ; that is, you remove the whole coal at once. At fit»t, when they start there the coal is more difficult to get than it is afterwards; the removing of the coal brings on a weight and makes the working of the coal much easier. That stage had been reached when the super- incumbent pressure made the working of the coal more easy. Naturally, each man under those conditions could put out much more coal than he ooulid for- merly. But they are paid by weight, and therefore, naturally, the manager wanted to reduce the tonnage rate. The agent informed me that the average wage being paid was 6s. 8d. in that seam, while the standard wage was really 5s. 9d., and he wanted to bring it down to something like the standard wage. 22104. (Chairman.) Is that 6s. 8d. per day ?—They were making 6s. 8d. per day on an average ; that was the average wage. Then the miners objected to sub- mit to any reduction whatever, because, naturally, they wanted to keep their wages up ; but the manager in- duced four Poles (there are only some 15 Poles alto- gether employed below ground in this colliery) to start at the reduction. These four Poles started one morning, and worked for two or three hours, and put out nearly three tons of coal apiece, but the other men rose up in rebellion, and would not have it, and they had to stop, and that was the beginning of this dispute, according to the agent. I am now giving his story. To blame these Poles for this thing is altogether unfair, because whenever a. seam is being opened up, there is always a dispute -a® to what should be the price for the coal. 22105. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Anyhow, in this in- stance the foreign labourers were willing to work for less wages than the union demanded ?-- (Chairman.) Four-fifteenths of it. --Yes ; but the whole thing falls to the ground if this statement of the agent is correct, that the men were making more wages than they were entitled to, There is always a break in the tonnage rate under those circumstances. 22106. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But the point I want to get at is that these four Poles were, as a matter of fact, willing to work for less than the Scotchmen were receiving for this particular work ?—Yes ; at this par- ticular place, that is quite true. 22107. And that has been the cause of this trouble ?— That has been the cause of the trouble. The miners wanted to keep up the price. 22108. (Mr. Vallance.) By'whom are these aliens en- gaged in the first instance—by the mine-owners?— They must all come through the officials of the col- liery. They must apply to the overman of the mine, and he agrees to take them on or no. 22109. They are not taken on as apprentices by cer- tain workers?—They are, in fact; but it miist all be done through the officials of the colliery. No man goes down a mine without it being understood he is going to start. 22110. His engagement is recognised by the coal- owner ?—Yes ; if one man takes a new man down the mine with him, his name will not appear in the books at all. The two work together, and the amount of coal put out by the two goes under the one man's name. 22111. Then is the coal-owner not responsible for the wages of these men when they first come ?—No. Every miner is a contractor in a sense, and one man may* employ one, two, three, or four men under him, and he draws all the money and pays all the men their wages. 22112. (Chairman.) They call them gangs, do they not?—Gangs or squads. 22113. (Mr. Vallance.) Is this form of engagement^ equally applicable to the native worker as to the alien" worker %—Yes. 22114. One witness has said that the employment of these aliens is not necessary by reason of any want of labour at the mines. Do you agree or disagree with that?—That may occur sometimes. It depends upon the state of trade. At the present moment, at one large colliery they could take 100 more men if they could get them. 22115. May we take it that generally, in your judg- ment, these aliens provide an industrial want f—-I think so. 22116. (Major HJvans->Gordon.) But at slack times,MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 811 when there is a surplus of labour, these foreigners would actually be occupying plaices which would otherwise em- ploy British workmen?-—Naturally, that would result. , 221.17. (Chairman.) As a rule, do they obtain, the same amount of wages as the native workmen ?-—Ybs, 1 think so. They are very steady—more steady, in fact, at their work than our other miners. 22113. Do they obtain the same rate always ?—Yes, the same rate of wages. 22119. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The amount depends on the quantity they put out?—Yes, but they are paid this same tonnage rate. ' 22120. With regard to these gangs, do you often have mixed gangs of natives and foreigners?—No, I believe that is most unusual. They-generally put the Poles in one part of the pit where they are all together. I .hav® known cases where they have worked with our native workmen, but that is most unusual., Mr. J. Eonetldsdk\x 14 May 190| Mb. H. Llewellyn Smith, recalled ; and further Examined. 22121. (Chairman.) You were examined on the 24th April last year ?—Yes. 22122. Of course, you could only bring your figures down to soriie date previous to that ?—Yes. 22123. What I think first the Commission would like you do would be to continue your figures to as' late a. date as is at your command ?—I will take it in any order that you wish. 22124. I should like you, if convenient, to take your evidence in chief as you gave it, and supplement that by bringing down the figures to the year 1902?—What 1 suggest is that- in the first place there were certain definite things of which I brought no evidence last time, but withregard to which I was asked to get the figures. I hare got those here in order,5 with reference to the question which elicited them. Then I propose after that to bring all the figures up to date. 22125. Take it in your own way ?:—The first point I have is that I was asked to get further figures with re- gard to the relief to aliens by Poor Law authorities. That was at Question 233. 22126. We are dealing now with relief to aliens by Poor Law authorities ?—Yes, mainly in London. • 22127. Those are Poor Law authorities proper?— Yes. . 22128. As distinguished from Jewish;charities ?—Yes, entirely. .; ' . 22129. (Mr. Vallance.) We have those figures in the additional tables?—We have those figures in the ad- ditional tables. With regard to these tables, I was asked by thei Commission to get the figures for 1901, and thoise are printed in. full here in Tables XXXI., and so on, but I have got better figures for 1902 because after considering the figures for 1901 I drew up what, I think was an improved form for getting them for 1902; there- fore I would rather comment on the figures for 1902 if it is agreeable to* you. They are a little more complete. They show that in 1902 the number of aliens who re- ceived Poor Law relief in London was 3,234. That is the number of separate individuals during the course of the year, not the mean numbers on any given date. 22130. (Chairman.) Are these for the whole of Lon- don ?—Yes, my Lord. (Mr. Vallance.) May I suggest that Mr. Llewellyn Smith should give the Stepney figures for comparison, and say of the 3,000 iso many were in Stepney ? 22131. (Chairman.) Where do you get your London figures from ?—They are collected from the Boards of Guardians in London. 22132. But where in this table?—Perhaps a more con- venient table for your purpose would be XXV., because it gives it in a. better form. Of those 1,210 re- ceived indoor relief; 1,611 received medical relief only; 245 received other forms of outdoor relief ; and 168 were isent by the Guardians to lunatic, or imbecile asylums, but were not otherwise relieved. It is that column which makes the figures more complete than for the previous year. I have a, separate column for that. That works out at a percentage of 2*4 on the whole alien population as shown in the Census of 1901. s (Major Evans-Gordon.) How does that compare with the figures for the total population of London ? 22133. (Chairman.) Let us take that in order. We will analyse thes© first. We have 3,234 all classes of relief for aliens in all London ?—Yes. ' . . 22134. Will you just analyse that locally ?—Of those 3,234, 1,993 were in the borough of Stepney, which, as . you know, contains nearly half the whole number of ' aliens in London. 22135. Where do you get. thaft figure , of half from ? ' You have 54,000 in Stepney ^r—Yes, out of 135,000. It 6144. is not quite half. 22136. It is 54,000 out of 135,000 ?—Yes. It is very rough when I say half. 22137. (Major Evans-Gordon.) 54,000 is for the year 1900 ?-—It is for the' Census year 1901. I have taken all these percentages on that. If the alien population was too low according to the Census, then my percentage will work out too high. 22138. (Chairman.) You had better take it that Step- ney contains about 40 per cent, of the whole alien popu- lation of London P—Yes. In the borough of Stepne$i 412 received indoor relief, 1,472 received medical relief only; 42 received other outdoor relief; and 67 were sent to lunatic or imbecile asylums, who' were not other- wise relieved. That, works out to* a percentage of 3*7 on the alien population. 22139. Just take Bethnal Green. Where do you get the total of 4,634?-—The total alien population is taken from the Census. 22140. I do not know that we need go through that, except to- say that the Tables XXV., XXVI. ^' and XXVII. set out the figures according; to the facts in your analysis ?—Yes, XXVI. "analyses them by nationali- tie thought,, that, might be interesting toi the1 Com- mission. Of the 3,234 aliens for the whole of London, 1,830 were Russians and Poles. 22141. These are paupers ?—Yes, 599 were Germans ;, 200 were Italians ; 108 were Austria,ns and Hungarians ;; 61 were Roumanians ; and 425 were other nationalities.. There were 11 whose nationality was! not ascertained. 22142. The particulars of these nationalities would' appear in Table XXVI.'?—Yes. For the borough of Stepney 1,620 out -of 1,993 were Russians and Poles ; 176 were Germans, 55 -were Austria,ns and Hungarians, 58* Roumanians, 74 other nationalities, and 10 not ascer- tained. 22143. As you are on Stepney, with regard to the Russians and Poles, do you say there are, 1,620 Russians and Poles paupers in Stepney ?—Yes. 22144. Although in the borough of Westminster there- were only 16?—Yes. 22145. And in Holborn only seven ?—Yes. 22146. And in the whole of the rest of London 187 ?-- Yes. 22147. That shows that the Russians and Poles have for some reasons gathered, not exclusively, but to, a, very great extent, in Stepney?—Yes. 221^8. So far as paupers are concerned ?—Yes. 22149. (Major Evans-Gordon.) What I want to get at, if I can, is how the percentage of paupers among aliens to alien population compares with the percentage ■ of native paupers to the native population?—It is rather- less than one-third. 22150. (Chairman.) You start with 2*4 alien paupers; to alien population?—Yes. 22151. Could you in the same way answer Major Evans-Gordon ?—The corresponding figure for the ratio* of the whole pauperism of London to the whole popula- tion would be about 7*9. I say "■ about " for a, reason that I must give the Commission, namely, because the statis- tics of pauperism are taken on two dates in the year, and we have to make an estimate of the total number of separate individuals. The Local Government Board do not have them counted every year. Mr. Vallance will remember there was a special count made a few years ago in order to get the proper figure to multiply by, and I have to < assumethat, that^continues to be correct. There is a Parliamentary paper of 1892 in which the thing was carefully done. 22152. (Lord Bothschild.) When you talk of medical relief, if a person receives one bottle of medicine, or 5 k -2 Mr. H. LI Smith.812 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGBATION : tfr. H. hi. three bottles of medicine, does that count- as three times Smith. or once?—It only counts as once. It is the individual. ^Tvyr— W© very carefully instruct all the Boards of Guardians 14 May i903. they must give us separate individuals, not multi- plying by the cases. But may I give you the figures for native pauperism by which you can test these percent- ages ? 22153. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Before we go to that, when you say the total of London, the total of London would include foreigners as well, would it not P—Yes, it would not make more than about a decimal point difference. It is such a sma^l thing. I can easily work it out for the natives, but you will not find it will affect the total. 22154. I take it the proportions are that you have to deal with, 135,377 total alien population and 3,234 total relieved, and 4,579,107 general population and 125,000 relieved ?—No, the 125,000 isi not the number relieved during the year, but the mean number in relief at a given date, and the number relieved during the year is supposed to be about three times that. That is the figure that we have to rely on on the old calculation. . 22155. That is 10 years old ?—Yes. 22156. (Chairman.) Yau have applied the same prin- ciple of calculation to the aliens as you have to tho general population, subject to what you have taken as being 10 years old?—The figure for the aliens is an actual count. 22157. In relation to the general ?—Yes. 22158. Has pauperism during those 10 years increased 'afi a whole or diminished ?—The difference is very slight. In 1902 it was a little less than in 1892, but not much. 22159. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Apart from the source from which relief is received, taking the alien population as against the native population, the alien population if you were to measure their poverty generally, of course you would have to take into account the amount that is expended, and the number of cases that are relieved from other sources ?—Undoubtedly. I do not give these for anything more than they are worth. 22160. This is what would come on the rates ?—Purely and absolutely. That is no doubt largely the explana- tion. 22161. (Chairman.) The general population may be relieved, but I should think it is probable that the alien population is relieved in greater degree by private aid than the general ?—I have no doubt at all that as regards the Russians and Poles, whom we are considering chiefly, the figures relating to their relief are affected by the "assistance they receive from the Jewish Board of ^Guardians or similar institutions, but this is not Poor / , .Law relief. 22162. (Lord Bothschild.) There is a large alien popu- lation m London, and they pay rates and taxes as well . as the English population. You have to take the whole thing and balance it ?—Yes. These are simply figures. (CKairman.) I think we had better go step by step, and ask the questions on the tables as we proceed. 22163. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Of course, if you take this as the measure of pauperism, one has to consider both the character of relief, whether it is indoor or out- ^door relief, or medical relief only?—Yes. 22164. In Stepney there are 412 who get indoor relief, 1,472 who get medical relief only, and 42 who get other -outdoor relief. The indoor relief and the outdoor relief, considered as indications of pauperism, are very . much more important than medical relief?—Much more. 22165. When one comes to Westminster, one finds 82 Indoor relief, eight outdoor relief, and only three medical :relief ?—Yes. The character of the relief has to be taken Into account. 22166. If you talk of it as an indication of pauperism, that is a very important element ?•—Yes; of course, the figures for Stepney show a very small amount of pauperism in the strict legal sense. 22167. (Mr. Vallance.) The only fact to be noted is that in the borough of Stepney the Russians and Poles predominate—1,620 out of 1,993—and they resort more to the poor rate for medical relief than do the aliens in Westminster, which comprise only 16 Russians and Poles, being made up of Germans and Italians and other ^rationalities ?—Yes, that is so. 22168. You must take the figures for what they are worth. You cannot deduce- with accuracy any conclu- sions ?—I think you can deduce with accuracy a definite conclusion as to the burden on tbe poor rates, but not as to poverty. 22169. (Chairman.) Now will you kindly proceed and take your next point ?—In Table XXVII. I compare the figures with the previous year. I think that perhaps may interest the Commission. 22170. 1901 and 1902. Are those two years taken on the same principle?—The totals are subject to a small addition to the 1901 figures. In the 1901 total we asked for the indoor, medical and other outdoor relief, but we did not ask separately for those sent to the lunatic asylums. If you add 90 people to the 2,766 for 1901 you get the comparable figure. You must add about 90. 22171. In Table XXVII. you take the data line of alien population which the Census shows is the population; that is the 1901 Census ?—Yes. 22172. There must be some increase? — Yes; that probably accounts for the increase. 22173. Then indoor relief in 1901, 974; 1,210 in 1902, an increase of 236?—Yes. 22174. To what do you attribute that increase ?—I have not gone into the causes, but on the face of it there has been an increase in the alien population m the interval. There is a bigger increase than is accounted for by the increase of the alien population, but pauperism as a whole has increased in London. The year has not been quite so good. 22175. (Mr. Vallance.) There is one singular fact, that in the borough of Stepney there has been a diminu- tion of 100?—Yes. 22176. (Chairman.) The increase seems to be in Hol- born. Are you quite sure that in 1901 you had the Holborn return, because there are none for Holborn in 1901 ?—Yes, we had the Holborn return. 22177. There are none ? — Then they have relieved none. 22178. That is medical and outdoor relief?—There were 30 indoor and no outdoor at all in Holborn in 1901. 22179. The result is, taking it all round, there is an increase of about 470 in 1902 over 1901?—There is an increase of 13 per cent. I have worked it out, and if you take the whole of London pauperism there was an increase of 4 per cent. ; so- that there has been an in- crease in alien pauperism faster than the increase in London pauperism, but against that you have to take into account that the alien population has probably been growing faster than the London population. 22180. This table stands by itself ?—If you turn over, you have got the same thing done by nationalities again, so you can see where the increase or decrease has taken place in the nationalities. I think for this purpose it is onlv fair that you should add the Russians, Poles, Rou- manians, Germans, and Austrians together, because on looking at the 1901 figures, I think, if there were Jews from Eastern Europe they were not very particular in stating the nationalities, and you had better add them together. I have got a line in the foot- note : " The total of these four nationalities relieved in the borough of Stepney in 1901 and 1902 was 1,926 and 1,909 "—practically the same figure. The Russian and Polish figure for the borough of Stepney looks as if there was something wrong if you look at it separately. 22181. We may take it this class of nationality is about the same, and you may take it as being sub- stantially the same in the two years ?—The same in amount, but less in proportion. 22182. (Major Evans-Gordon.) One question on that. You say in 1901 you should add 90 imbeciles ?—Yes. 22183. And in 1902 there were 168 ?—-Yes. 22184. Therefore there is an increase of 58 imbecile# in the one year?—It would be about 78 if your figures were correct, but it is not quite so, because we ascer- tained that 40 had been included undler the 'head of " Relieved " in the return furnished to us. I think it is put clearly in the note : " It has since been ascertained that the total number of aliens so included was 40, and of those excluded about 90." The reason I had taken out those 40 is that I do not know where they are in the tables, and it would make it very difficult to go back on them now. The figures I must compare are 130 and 168. 22185. (Chairman.) Where do you get the 130?—The people who were sent to lunatic asylums or imbecileMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 813 asylums, but not otherwise relieved in 1901. There were 168 in 1902, and we have ascertained there were 130 in 1901; but I cannot include them in the table, because some have been included and some excluded. I do not think that even that is quite a legitimate inference, because our instruction was to include under this head those sent to lunatic or imbecile asylums during the year, but not otherwise relieved. If they were in the workhouse, they would come under the liead of indoor relief. 22186. It is a small matter compared with the whole thing ?—Yes. (Mr. Vallance.) Except that if they had been seint to the lunatic asylum, they must necessarily have been relieved elsewhere before they went there. 22187. (Mr. Norman.) Is this a small matter ? The Chairman is of opinion this is a small matter, but Mr. Vallance seems to think it is not a small matter ?—It cannot be a small matter to know what the number of alien lunatics and imJbeoiles is:; but we thought we got it rather better by directly going to the asylums and getting a census than by trying to get it through the "Board of Guardians, who send the people. They -are the same people whom we get in Table XXIV., as I ■will explain when I come' to it. 22188. {Mr. Vallance.) For the most part, those who liave been admitted into lunatic asylums have been admitted from Poor Law institutions, and con- sequently may have been included in any enumera- tion. On the other hand, if the return is made care- fully, they will not be so included. They will only be included once, as. in the asylums ?—When you get to the detail s a number of these small points occur. 22189. (Mr. Normcm.) Whether these figures might not be much greater because of what Mr. Vallance has pointed out, they are large in this respect, that lunatics .almost necessarily must have received other relief .before being sent to lunatic asylums 1—'Clearly. I think the last column must only be taken as a residual column, in order to compute the total. It is not the total number sent to lunatic asylums. 22190. Then these figures must be regarded as residual figures ?—Yes. I do not think you must draw Any inference from that, except as making up the total. 22191. (Chairman.) We 'have got it that in 1902 there were 3,234 relieved, against 2,856 P—Yes. 22192. Now will you go to the next ?—-I have similar particulars of a certain number of selected provincial towns in 1902. That is Table XXIX. We selected Bir- mingham, Cardiff, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, and Sheffield, simply because of the magnitude of the alien population. We selected the only ones which it was felt were worth going to. Perhaps we oughtto have wadded Glasgow, but it would have meant going to a different set of authorities for that. There you get •exactly the same particulars as for London. 22193. The percentage is a very important thing. "The average comes out at 4 per cent, as the percentage of alien population ?—Yes. 22194. Can you answer the question that Major Evans-Gordon put—What is the reliationi of that to the general Poor Law relief ?—I could not do it with nearly the same certainty that I did it with regard to London. 1 could say that it was lower, but I could not say how much lower. 22195. Not even approximately?—I do not like to jgive a figure without some better basis for it. It cer- tainly is lower. 22196. Is it within your knowledge that there are the same methods of relief by charitable institutions in these big centres as there are in London, so as to relieve the rates %—'There are Jewish Board's of Guardians and foreign relief societies in several of them. I have not the complete figures. 22197. Is there anything particularly material about It except that it comes out at 4 per cent. ?—I do not think so. You see great variations in the kind of relief in the different districts, but that is a thing that depends on the different policy of Boards of Guardians. 22198. It may be that that occurs from the lesser .amount of charitable gift?—Yes. 22199. (Lord Bothschild.) I think the figures for the provinces show rather a diminution in the number of foreigners relieved ?—I have not given a comparative ^vre because the 1901 figures were not satisfactory, and l'do not like to make a comparison. I have found that in some of the 1901 figures for the provinces only Mr. H. LL foreigners who had not acquired a settlement had been Smith:: included, so that I have thrown them all out. I cannot r 1 1 go back on the back figures to find out whether they 14 May 1903. have been greatly affected by it. Then Table XXX. is the same thing for the provinces, by nationalities. Out of 1,501 persons, 659 were Russians and Poles. Of course, that is a considerably lower proportion than in the case of London. 22200. (Chairman.) That shows the Russians and Poles in these centres, and Leeds takes the lead with 430 out of 659 ?—Yes ; the great majority are in Leeds. If you turn back to the previous table, you see that the great majority of those get outdoor relief. 22201. (Mr. Vallance.) It is a question of policy?— Yes. 22202. (Chairman.) Is there any town in these centres where there has been more pauper relief than in the others proportionately to the numbers?—I will make a note of that and find out. I could not carry the figure in my head. 22203. The percentage of pauperism is important. We have got it 4 per cent, all through for the provinces? —Generally speaking, these percentages are lower than it would work out for the native population. I have no doubt of that, but how much it is difficult to say. 22204. Can you do anything approximately for us in that respect -Yes; I could do it approximately, but I want you to understand it will be only approximately. 22205. Unless you hear to the contrary, we will not trouble you to go into that. Is there anything else on this next table ? That deals only with nationalities ? —XXX. 22206. (Mr. Vallance.) In the case of Leeds there is the high percentage of 6 per cent, aliens?—Yes. 22207. 430 out of 449 are Russians and Poles ?—Yes. 22208. And probably you know that the Board of Guardians in giving medical relief may give a few necessaries, meat or what not, in addition, and that would constitute outdoor relief and take them out of the first column, and so give an apparently higher per- centage. It is the policy of administration ?L—Yes ; and that illustrates what I was saying. Administration governs these figures so very largely that I do not like taking a single district and making any comparison. 22209. We had better get the analysis under the head of Liverpool. There are 365 out of 539 " other nationali- ties/"' and you say in your note, "including 167 emi- grants passing through Liverpool . . . cost, of their relief was repaid by the shipping companies." What nationalities would they principally be that would pass through Liverpool? Would they be Scandinavians, or what—'From the fact of their being put " other nation- alities," it looks as if they were Scandinavians, because the great volume of foreigners going through Liverpool for the United States would be either persons from Eastern Europe, Russians, Roumanians,, Austnans, and so on, who would come under these headings, or they would be Scandinavians; so it looks as if those were Scandinavian®. I will see if I can get more in- formation as to that, because it would be interesting to clear it up. 22210. (Chairman.) Now, what is the next thing you have to refer to ?—-There are the 1901 figures. I have already given the Commissioners, 1902, and I do not know that there is anything to be said. 22211. Is it an increase or decrease, during the two years?—An increase. 22212. As against that, you have to take the increase of population?—'Yes. 22213. Would it be approximately the same ?—No, I think pauperism in the whole number of persons has increased faster than the population ; it has generally ; 1902 was not such a good year for trade. Pauperism has increased faster than the population. 22214. Has there been any abnormal increase in the alien population as compared with the native?—Yes, I think so. If you take the Census returns for 1891 and 1901, the alien population of London was increasing faster during that 10 years than the general population. That is the only way we can test it. 22215. I am speaking of the pauper increase. Is there any reason to think there has been a greater in- crease of pauper relief amongst aliens than amongst814 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Smith, 1'4 Kay 19.03. Mr. E. 0: natives ?—Yes, it has increased in greater proportion, as between 1901 and 1902. 22216. Then the relative population has increased ? —Yes, so far as one can judge. That completes all I have to say about Poor Law relief, unless there is any- thing to* be asked. May I add one point about the Poor Law relief that I have noted. There are one or two criticisms that may be made on all these figures, and that is that the alien population, having a different age distribution to the native population, possibly the pauperism figures are not properly to be compared. There is a different proportion of children and old people, so I have re-worked the whole thing as far as possible by ages, but I find that it does not affect the result. The next, is the lunatics and imbeciles. That was referred to in a question by Major Evans-Gordon at No. 235. This is; Table XXIV. We asked the London County Council and the Metropolitan Asylums Board to be good enough to make a census of the inmates of their institutions on a given day of May last year. 22217. This is a portion of the dissection of the re- lief. It is only one head of the relief?—These are all paupers. In the London, County Asylums there were <15j247 pauper patients of all kinds, and of those 458 were aliens. The percentage is exactly 3 per cent. In the imbecile asylums under the control of the Metro- politan Asylums Board there were 5,829 pauper patients, and of these 96 were aliens, or 1*6 per cent. Taking the whole number, therefore, we have 21,076 inmates, including 554 aliens, or 2*6 per cent. 22218. As regards the whole of the alien paupers, the proportion you have got is 2*4 paupers out of your total alien population?—The alien paupers in these institu- tions form 2-6 per cent, of the whole number of inmates. 22219. Of these inmates you have 2*6 per cent, pro- portion of the whole aliens. You cannot compare the two, of course?—The percentage of the whole alien population of London that are in asylums is very much smaller than that. It is less than half per cent.—41 per cent. 22220. Of the whole alien population?—Yes. 22221.- (Major 'Evans-Gordon.) What is the percent- age of that to the 4^ millions of general population?— It is almost exactly the same, *46 per cent., and the other is *41 per cent., which is almost precisely the same. So that, judging from that, the number of im- beciles and lunatics in the alien population who come into these establishments forms the same per- centage, approximately, of the total alien population that the natives do of the total native population. It is about the same. The next thing was with regard to a question of Lord Rothschild at Question 135. I do not know how far the Commission want me to go into that now. I was asked whether I could compare the Board of Trade statistics with the results of the census. The census results had not at that time been put before the Commission, and so the question was postponed. I can go into it now if necessary. 22222. (Chairman.) You are comparing the census re- turns taken, as we know the census returns are taken, with your returns under the Act of William IV.?— Yes. 22223. They are very incomplete?—Yes; and under the Merchant Shipping Act. May I give you in very general terms the result without going into details. All I can say is that, tested in the various ways that one can test them, there is nothing inconsistent between the two sets of figures ; but, as you say, it is impos- sible to make them agree, because, if I may so put it, one relates to the total volume of water in a cistern at a given moment, and the other to the total rate of in- flow over a given time, when we know there is an out- flow and we cannot measure it. 22224. And an inflow through certain parts of the cistern, and not the whole?—Yes ; but it has been un- doubtedly suggested in evidence before your Commis- sion that the two sets of figures are inconsistent. I am prepared to say they are not inconsistent. Broadly speaking, the census results for London show an in- crease of 27,000 Russians and Poles in the 10 years. Our figures show a gross inflow of Russians and Poles of 100,000, of whom we have traced outwards about 23,000, and we know about 19,000 more who have migrated, or been removed from London by charitable agencies. If you take those, .-and''allowing for 8,000 deaths, you get a gross growth according to our figures of Russians and Poles in London of 50,000. In arriving at this figure we neglect altogether the number of aliens arriving or departing from London by rail, and all those departing by sea, except so far as they are included among those traced outward or known to have- removed.. The census increase is 27,000, and all I can say is that the difference between these two totals does not seem to me excessive considering the fact of our knowledge1 as to the volume of transmigration and other migration: going on. I could do the same for the United King- dom if thought fit. ' There we have better figures to go upon. 22225. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With approximately the same results?—In the United Kingdom figures move- ment between different parts of the United Kingdom i& excluded, and therefore the thing is a little simpler. It could be nothing but proving consistency. The next thing I have got is the statistics of aliens rejected by the- United States authorities. Major Evans-Gordon re- ferred to this matter at Question 285, and there was also a question by the Chairman about those returned to the United Kingdom by the Canadian authorities, so that I have put the two< together in Tables XXXIII r and XXXIV. Table XXXIII. answers Major Evans- Gordon's question, which was to carry up to as early a year as; we could get the figures, particulars of the numbers rejected by the United States authorities. I can carry them back to 1888, and I have- divided them into British subjects and other aliens. Of course, British- subjects are aliens in the United States. * 22226. (Chairman.) You draw a distinction after 1891. Th^y do not seem to have been classified ?—That.: is the period when practically the United States immi- gration laws came into force. 22227. On the whole, it is an increasing rejection ?— It is an increasing rejection, but not an increasing pro- portion. 22228. It is rather a decreasing proportion. Have you got the number of persons arriving in some- different table?—Yes, I have got them made up to date. "What year shall I take ? It is in my other set of tables ; that- is to say, my general tables brought up to date. In the year 1902, the last year, the total num- ber arriving Was 649,000. * - 22229. As a matter of test, will you give us the year before ?—The year before there were 488,000, and the year before 448,000. 22230. (Lord Rothschild.) These rejections you give apply to the 649,000 ?—Yes. 22231. And not to the two previous yeans?—The re- jections are in the last column here. 22232. fable C. ?—It is so, but I have not got to that yet; I am taking the printed tables for the moment. 22233. (Chairman.) I want to know if you have any knowledge of the operation of the latest Act of all ins America. That comes in in your next set of tables, does it not'?'—Yes, it comes into'my evidence. I have brought you tihe Act, and my analysis of it. 22234. When you have got the rejections, have you any statement as to the destinations of the rejected people ?—In the next table—XXXIV.—I have those who were sent back and landed in this country. In 1902 there* ..were 610 aliens rejected who were sent back and landed in the United Kingdom, of whom 172 were British, so that it gives the people who were not aliens from our point of view; 352 were foreigners and 172 British. There were 86 sent, back by the Canadian authorities— that is, 2 British and 84 foreigners. That makes 610. 22235. Are you able to trace what became of the 352 foreigners from the United States sent back to us?— Yes, I have a taible, which is attached, showing, so far as I know, what became of them. We have to deal with 436 aliens, 352 rejected by the United States and landed here; 84 rejected by the Canadian authorities, and landed here. Of those in 1902, 401 were returned to the Continent. 22236. By whom?—-By the shipping companies; 36 were returned to places in the United Kingdom. 22237. Did they come from there, do you think ?— They were returned to there, and I have not yet been able to trace whether the whole of those 36 were or were not people who> bond fide started from the United Kingdom, or whether any of them were people who came there. I am trying to get more particulars, but it is a little difficult, because the shipping companies do not always know. They sometimes know, but not. always ;MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 815 10 are unaccounted for. The returns to us do not account Spr them; they disappear or something. 22238. This is important. May we take it the result is that the whole of the rest of the United States and Canadian returns, so as to charge this country, would he 36 after allowing 10 for disappearance, and so on ?— If the returns of the shipping companies are correct, there are only 46, and it must lie within the 46; 20 of those 36 were. Russian Jews who booked in London. I am trying to find out whether as a matter *)f fact they bond fide started from London, or whether they did not ; but it is a very small matter . The Com- mission will understand I am speaking of people who went to the United States and were rejected there, and oame back—not of people who were rejected at this end on an examination by the shipping companies them- selves, and whom they declined to carry. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) These we had from another wit- ness, Br. Hope. 22239. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How do you get the -figures with regard to those who are returned to the Continent?—Simply by asking the shipping companies. 22240. Dealing with individuals ?—Yes, we know what -company brought- them to> this country, and then we inquire in each case, "What did you do with them?" 22241. Is the obligation of the American law to return them to their own country?—I would not like to inter- pret the American law, but whether it is so or not, that ■obligation would not be enforced by our courts. 22242. But the obligation is put upon them to return "them to their country of origin ?-—I should not care to answer, even by implication, a question as to the inter- pretation of the American law. I believe the shipping companies do not admit that they are liable. 22243; To take them back' to their own country?— No, and there has been a case with regard to it. , 22244. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Is that the case you men- tioned before?—I do not know whether it has. been mentioned. I have not mentioned it. The case was in 1893, Wallace v. J. and A. Allan. ,.V (Chairman.) Supposing a Polish Jew starts from Lon- don and goes to New York, the New York authorities would send him back, to London ; they would not send Mm back to a Russian port or a German port. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That depends very much on how he comes. If he is a through transmigrant, and if lie came across by Hamburg, and had a contract ticket, then they would be compelled to take him back under American law' to the place of his origin: (Chairman.) .Bopked in London, and . in your view it -covers both? (Major IE vans-Gordon.) The new American law, in order to cope; with the smuggling across the Canadian frontier, specially lays that down. They say that they are compelled to. take them back not into Canada, but to the place; whence they came, which is a very im- portant difference. (Witness:}! do not know if the Commissioners care for a reference to this case. It was not a case that was appealed. Ail inspector of poor in Govan parish brought an action against the Allan Line to recover the cost of maintaining a destitute alien brought back by them, and who subsequently became chargeable. It was. held that the shipping company who had carried back to this country a destitute alien who was not allowed to land in America by the authorities' there, acting under the power of. the United States law of March, 1901, were not liable, in relief to the parish to which the alien sub- sequently became chargeable. The case decided that they could not recover the relief. 22245. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Was that an action on a bond?—In the course of the.case it was contended that they were under obligation to carry the man back to the Continent, but this was not sustained. I do not know of what importance legally that is, but that is the only case I happen to know. 22246. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You referred to the Canadian law, - and that people were rejected under the law. Have we got the Canadian law ?-—I will give you that in another part of my evidence. 22247. You assume that the returns of the shipping companies are correct with regard to these people ?—Yes. 22248. But if they did not choose to take them on they are under no liability to do so?—I only say I believe they hold it so. I do not know whether the thing has been sufficiently tested. {Chairman.) Is this the company, as a rule, that carry J/r. H. Li* to New York, to which the law is applied, or would it be England or Germany? - 22249. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Both. Some go under 14 the foreign flag and some under the English flag?—They are mostly British. 22250. The Beaver Line is the line that mostly takes them from Liverpool ?—Yes, they are mostly British. 22251. (Chairman.) I suppose the German companies would have power to take them to the English ports ?— I do not know. 22252. If they broke at Liverpool it would make it very awkward for us- (Major Evans-Gordon.) They do break at Liverpool. 22253. (Chairman.) Supposing they are brought back to Liverpool by a British vessel, and the man started from Hamburg, what becomes of him?—The company send him back at their expense, although they will not admit their liability. 22254. Do they do that because the American authori- ties make them ?—I should not like to say what their motive is. The point is that they do do it. 22255. It is nothing to the shipping companies, except to get rid of him as soon as they can. If they brought him back to Liverpool they would be discharged with regard to America. How do we get the man on from Liverpool to Hamburg, if he came from there ?-—They send him. I do not say why, but they do send him at their expense, while, as they say, not admitting their liability to do it. 22256. I think it is important if you can give us the figures about the people who are rejected at Liverpool? —I have the number from the Board of Trade officers. 22257. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We had the figures given the other day of those who were stopped and who were afterwards sent on?—I have the number who were stopped altogether. The number rejected by the medi- cal officer of the Board of Trade at Liverpool was 62, and the number rejected by the shipping companies, on the ground that they would not be admissible to the United States in 1902, was about 25. That is the best the shipping companies could give me. 22258. They were the figures given, I think, by an- other witness ?—The figures that Dr. Hope put in were 187, and I do not know whether the difference is that some of his people afterwards went on. 22259. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is it. Those figures were those who were rejected altogether ?—Yes. 22260. (Chairman.) How do the Board of Trade act? What is the power they are putting in force there to stop at Liverpool? I know the shipping companies do it, because they say to the'passenger, " We will not carry you," but where does the Board of Trade come in ?-*- The Board of Trade's medical officer has the power of inspecting immigrants and rejecting them on medical grounds at the ports. I would rather that you got it from Captain Chalmers, who is going to follow me, and who has to deal directly with the administration of this part of the law. I only deal with the statistics; and I might mislead you a little. 22261. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Anyhow, the position, as far as you know it, is this : that these people arrive at Grimsby and Hull, transmigrants not exposed to any medical examination whatever on landing in England by a Board of Trade medical officer ?—I believe so, speaking generally. 22262. And that they are examined by a Board of Trade medical officer on leaving this country?—Yes, I believe so. 22263. (Lord Bothschild.) Except this point, that a ship flying the yellow flag would not be allowed to lajad passengers ?—No, of course not. 22264. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to this table, would you say that from this number of people returned you can deduce any inference as regards the efficacy of the American law ?—Do you mean the total number rejected? . 22265. Yes, in New York?—You would, have to be cautious in drawing an inference, because the law may prevent people coming. 22266. It may prevent people starting?—Yes, of course. 22267. Has your attention been called to the Indus- trial Commission Report in America of 1901, in which it states that the effect of the laws of 1891 and of 1393816 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION *. Mr. H. LI. Smith. l#May 1903. in any one single year lias been that fully 50,000 persons were refused the sale of tickets within a year after it was passed?—I think I have heard that figure, but I do not remember the passage you refer to. 22268. I am quoting now from the Industrial Commis- sion Report. That is their estimate of the deterrent effect of the laws, and that law has subsequently, as you know, been increased in stringency ?—-I must not be understood to be accepting the figure in any way. It is an extramely round figure, and I do not see how they could evfer get the figure. 22269. Anyhow, from that you cannot deduce what the American law really affects ?—You can never deduce the effects of the law from a single set of figures. They are all material facts towards forming your conclusion. 22270. (Mr. Norman.) Is this what happens, that when these people are rejected by the United States they are returned by the shipping companies to Liverpool, who then present them with money, or with a ticket to their place of origin on the Continent?—I suppose they pay for their ticket, but I do not know what the procedure is. 22271. Do you suppose they give them the ticket or the money ?—I do not know. 22272. Do you know whether they take any other pre- cautions to see that these people either have a ticket or spend the money in buying a ticket ?—No, I think you will get that from the shipping companies. I do not know. They assert as a fact that these men were re- turned, and none were left here. 22273. I am trying to get a definition of the word " re- turned." Do they simply say to him " Go back," or do they send somebody with him to see that he goes back ?— I could not tell you. I could find out, of course, if it is a matter the Commission would desire to know, but I have not the smallest doubt of the accuracy of this state- ment that these people do actually leave the country. 22274. You believe that when these people, all of whom are extremely, and often desperately, anxious to settle either in the United States or1 the United Kingdom, ■when they are rejected by the United States, and come back here, and are given facilities to get to the Con- tinent without any pressure being brought to bear upon them, so far as you can see, they avail themselves of these 'facilities, and you really believe that they go ?— I believe that they go, but if I may be excused for saying so, you are rather begging the question. I do not know that they are desperately anxious to settle in this • country, and I do not know that no* pressure is brought to bear upon them. I do not know what is the particu- lar form of pressure, but I will find it out if you care about it. If there is any doubt in the mind of the Commission we will make further inquiry as to whether the people actually leave. 22275. Speaking for myself, I have the very greatest possible douibt ?—Then it shall be cleared up. 22276. Do you know the ground of rejection of thege people at Liverpool ?—The people who- are not allowed to go on? 22277. Yes The 62 held back by the Board of Trade medical officers must, of course, have been on medical grounds in the interests of the other emigrants. The 36 rejected by the shipping companies include any re- jected by them on medical grounds; but I have not asked how many of the 36 were rejected by the shipping companies' on other than medical grounds. 22278. As to what the details of the medical grounds were, could you make any statement?1—No; I have heard, but I could mot give any statistics. I believe diseases of the eye, trachoma, and dis Bases of that kind, -are things they look for particularly. They do cer- tainly otn the other side of the Atlantic, and I should think probably they do it here. 22279. At any rate, the fact is that your own officers prevent contagious or infectious diseases going to* the United States, which they do not prevent entering this country?—'About what our own officers do, and what their powers are, and how they act, if you do not mind getting it from Captain Chalmers I would much prefer it, because he is in direct contact with this work, and I only know it as an outsider. (Chairman.) We do not allow cholera or small-pox to land. (Mr. Norman.) We had the medical officer of the London County Council here as a witness, and I gave him a list of particularly offensive diseases, and' aske& him if he would be in favour of stopping those at the* port of entry, and he said, " Certainly not." 22280. (Chairman.) But I understand him to mean if: he knows there is cholera on board ship he does not allow anyone to land ?—He allows them to land, but he- takes their addresses, and keeps them under super- vision. The medical policy of this country is against quarantine. Quarantine is an obsolete thing; super*, vision has taken its place. Here I am trespassing rather outside Board of Trade matters into Local Government Board questions. You are going to have a Local Board witness, I understand, who will tell you all that witk much greater authority than I can, and who will tell you what the policy of the Government has been for- many years with regard to the admission of diseased persons. I thought Mr. Norman's question referred to* the action of our officers as regards the exit of diseased persons, and I would rather you got that from Captain* Chalmers. 22281. (Mr. Norman.) Exit and entrance. Do you. know what becomes of the people thus rejected at Liver- pool ?—The 36 rejected by the shipping companies were* sent back out of the country. 22282. And the other rejections by the Board of* Trade officers 1—I am afraid I have not got information* about those. I should not think we had any power to, send them back ; but I will ascertain about that. 22283. Where does the Board of Trade get its legal* power to rej ect, and to stop people ?—Any powers whicu. they exercise are under the Merchant Shipping Act,- which is mot an Act I have; anything to do with, and I would much rather you get that from Captain Chain?ers.s It is the Merchant Shipping Act, and nothing else. 22284. (Major Evans-Gordon.) One other point oik this. H 3 it come under your notice that cases nave- been sent back to Hamburg and other ports, and re-sent, back to England, as not having means ?—I cannot recall that case. 22285. I know of one specific case illustrating that, in which a main, a foreigner, came upon the rates at Grimsby, and the Board of Guardians subscribed money to send him back to Hamburg, and there was great in- dignation that he was not allowed to land at Hamburg^ being a diseased person, and he was sent back to- Grimsby ?—Have you a reference to that case ? 22286. Yes; it is set out in the report of our secre- tary on his visit to Grimsby : " In August last a young, German-American, a watchmaker by trade, who was suffering from nervous debility, and had been in the- Asylum, was, contrary to his own wish, put on board, s.s. " Nottingham," when leaving the port of Ham- burg for Grimsby. He arrived here penniless, lived for- a fortnight upon charity, and fell at length into the- hands of the Guardians. The Board, rather than have him oin their hands, subscribed a sum of money suffix cient to enable him not only to return to Hamburg, but also in order that the German police might not again return him to Grimsby to proceed further. This in stance serves to- show how the foreign police, protected by their own immigration laws, take advantage of the absence of such laws in this country." There is always, the chance with regard to these people the shipping, companies send away, that the Germans do not choose- to receive them, and they send them back here. (Mr. Norman.) There is a sometwhat similar case re- ported in this morning's paper. 22287. (Mr. Vallance.) These figures in Table 14- indicate an increase of activity on the part of the United States authorities ?—Yes. , 22288. Whereas in 1892 there were 2,801 rejected, or 0*5 per cent., of the numiber rejected in 1902, there were 5,439 rejected, which represents 0*8 per cent. ?— Yes. 22289. Of those rejections 5,093 were other than English, Scotch, Irish, or Welsh?—Yes. 22290. Of those 5,093, 436 appear to have been re-^ turned to' this country, and of these 401 were returned to. the Continent, and the impression upon England has been to the extent of 46. That is the broad effect, is it not?—It is probably less than 46. 22291. Not more?—No. 22292. Speaking of the increasing activity of the United States, the main laws about immigration have been passed since the first year that you mention.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 817 22293. (Lord Bothschild.) But 200,000 immigrants were landed in the month of January since the more severe laws. 22294. I think you said the numiber of immigrants received in America in 1902 was 649,000 ?—Yes. 22295. And the numiber of rejections, including those in Liverpool, .amount altogether to 5,439?—Yes, it is nearly 1 per cent.; it is *8 per cent. 22296. So that if you had the same law in England as you have in America it is only 1 pear cent, of the aliens that would be exclude^ ?—iSubject to whlat Major Evans-Gordon has already suggested, that an Act may have a preventive effect. (Lord Bothschild.) But the new Act, which was much stronger, did not prevent about 200,000 from landing in January. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The new Act was not passed till March of this year, so we cannot test the effect of the new Act at all. {Lord Bothschild.) I thought it had passed before. {Chairman.) It was submitted to Congress, but it never passed till March, 1903. 22297. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Do you think there is any difficulty arising in America as to ascertaining the right persons to reject. Have you any experience as to whether or not the right persons are let in who are really desirables and the undesirable people shut out?—I can only speak on that matter from- a very limited personal experience, which is not enough to go upon. I was very much impressed with the difficulty of it when I watched them do it at New York, and I believe they have found great difficulties since. I think some of them are alluded to in the last report of the Commission. It must be quite evident that if the law lays down that people suffering from certain diseases shall not he let in, you have only to have a competent medical officer and sufficient examination to keep these people out, but if you give power to an officer to predict what will happen to a man, and that a man is likely to do something, in that case unless you have omniscience you are likely to> have scandals. 22298. Is not that the great difficulty and great danger in giving power of that kind to an officer, not a professional or skilled man, but to an official?—It leads to very great dangers, and would have to be guarded in every kind of way if we did it, because there would have to be appeals and so forth. 22299. There are obvious dangers—dangers of cor- ruption, and so on?—Yes. 22300. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Thiey have got appeals in America?—-Yes, but they have not protected them from a very undesirable state of things. 22301. And they have power to send them back after a certain time if they prove themselves undesirable ? —Yes. 2230£. I think it is a period of two years now?— They have increased it. 22303. (Chairman.) The great difficulty must arise when you have to deal with the question of means and the power to support. The officers who have to ad- minister that must have very great difficulty?—Very great difficulty. In fact, it cannot be done with any certainty. I have no hesitation in saying to. the Com- mission that you may pretend to do • it, but you cannot do it. 22304. (Mr. Norman.) Will you say precisely what is not done ?—To let in all the people who are unlikely * to become a public charge, and to keep out all those Who are ilikely. There are several other classes of people prohibited under the American law whom, it is quite obvious, you cannot detect.—poilygamists, for example. 22305. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is only espe- cially with regard to Mormonism ?—-Yes. 22306. (Mr. Norman.) You say it is impossible to detect that a person is likely to become a public charge ? —■You could keep out some. 22307. It does not follow that a considerable num- ber may not be kept out ?—Clearly, I do not mean to say there may not be a considerable number with regard to whom it was pretty clear, but a hard case will arise over the small margin where there is a doubt. 22308.. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These things, like 6144. polygamy, are put in, are they not, in order that if Mr. H. L. they are found not to come up to these requirements Smith'. subsequently they can be sent back. Is not that the ~ ~ object of that restriction?—I should not like to say " what the object of the law is. 22309. It is not with the object of catching the poly- gamist at the port, but after he has been in the country, because they have got power, if these people do not come up to the provisions of the Act, to send them back after two years' residence?—Yes. (Mr. Norman.) At all events, you would say that in a large number of cases the officers at the port are able to do w'hat the law requires them to do. (Chairman.) What class of people? 22309*. (Mr. Norman.) The people who are likely to become chargeable?—I should think in a great many cases, but I am thinking of it from an administrative point of view. If we are right nine times out of ten the public will not let us off for making a mistake in the tenth case. 22310. The public would do so if it accepted your own view that only omniscience would be required in the tenth case?—If Parliament puts on us the duty we ^hall do it in the best way we can. But I would; rather go into this matter when we come to the ques- tion of American law. 22311. (Chairman.) What is your next point ?—There* are three or four miscellaneous points which I have thought it right to put down in case you require to> repeat the questions, but it seemed to me after look- ing through the evidence that they have become obso- lete points. 22312. I think we should agree with you on that pro- bably?—I do not think I am compressing any things but I was asked to get these out on the first day. Then? next I come to the main thing, namely, the bringing up to date of the immigrant figures that I handed in. Will you take 1902 figures first? 22313. Will you call attention to the tables?—Yes. The first table is simply bringing up to date the move- ment to places out of Europe. I do not think you are particularly interested in that except as to making; up the balance. Table II. is the excess and comparison.. I have nothing to say on these tables, unless the Com- mission wish to ask me anything upon them. 22314. What was the number of aliens who came im 1902?—They were almost exactly 200,000 altogether* That is in Table Y. The gross total of aliens who> arrived in the United Kingdom from Continental ports. was 200,011, as compared with 149,750 in the previous. ye>ar, showing roughly an increase of 50,000. They are- the gross figures. Of those, 118,478 were declared on the' alien lists to be en route to other countries—I think: the Commis'sion understand that that is not the whole- number en route, but those who are said in the alien lists to be en route—as against 79,140. That is a dif- ference of 39,000. Out of the increase of 50,000,. 39,000 were among people stated in the alien lists to be en route. Then 15,000 were seamen; that is the same- figure, and that leaves 66,471 as against 55,464, an in- crease of 11,000. 22315. (Lord Bothschild.) Is that for the year?— That is for the year. The main increase is amongst. Russians and Poles, who, roughly, increased 8,000, or not quite 8,000. Those again are mainly accounted for by London and Grimsby. London accounts for 5,000 and Grimsby 2,300. It is almost the whole of it.. If you look at the Russians in London and the Russians; in Grimsby it will give you the figure. 22316. {Mr. Vallance.) In Table V., aliens arriving; in the port of London, we have 10,954 in 1892 and 33,046 in 1902?—You are comparing particular years- Is not that rather unsafe, because 1892 was the^ minimum year, and the year 1891 was much larger.. Your figures are correct. 22317. It shows that of late years the inflow has in - creased ?-—Yes. 22318. (Major Evans-Gordon.) 'Comparing 1901 and' 1902, how much is that ?—6,000, who are practically air Russians and Poles. 22319. (Chairman.) In 1900 the figure was 18,000 ass against 16,000 in 1901. 1901 was smaller fov 2,000 ? —Yes. 22320. Which was the great Roumanian year? 5 L818 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. II. L, Smith. l! May 1903. (Major Evans-Gordon.) 1900. The Roumanians in that year were 2,776. 22321. (Lord Bothschild.) A large number of the aliens not reported en route are really en route ?—Yes. 22322. A large majority of them?—These are not all aliens for settlement; they are aliens who are not said on the alien list .to/be en route. A large number of others, in fact, are en route. 22323. (Chairman.) Had we better deal with this question! now, as to the numbers you think, although not stated to be en route, are really en route? Will you explain that number?—If you turn to Table VII., which gives the only figure on that, you will find that in 1902 7,964 were reported to us to- be proceeding out- wards although not stated to be en route.. 22324. How have you arrived at that?—Simply from Mr. Hawkey's Report in London. Mr. Hawkey has given evidence before the Commission, and he meets the vessels and makes inquiries It is on his inquiries that we base these figur es. 22325. (Chairman.) They must be approximate, of course?—It is an under estimate, I have no doubt. 22326. (Lord Bothschild.) Mr. Hawkey said that they had 8,000 in one year, but there must be a great many more ?—There are a great many more. You must not take it as any more than the minimum figure. 22327. (Chairman.) Supposing a Russian Pole came over to see his relatives and his children, is Mr. Hawkey able to get that man's return home after his business is done, or his visit paid ?—He is not. He'cannot state the aliens outward. I think if the Commission would like me to go into the question now of my reasons for supposing there are transmigrants who purposely con- ceal the fact, I will do so. 22328. (Major Evans^Gordon.) So far we have got to this., that for certain you know sufficient to say that about 8,000, or as far as Mr. Hawkey knows, certainly about 8,000 go on out of the 33,000 who are not-said to be en route ?—Yes. I have a number of quotations from Mr. Hawkey's Reports which show definite cases in which, although the aliens had declared to him that they were not going on,, so> that he was unable to include them in the report, he subsequently found that theyl were going on, by finding them on Paddington Station, going by a special train engaged for the purpose, and he could identify the people. 22329. (Chairman.) We ha,ve that evidence before us. ?—'Yes. 22330. (Major Evans«Gordon.) Do these foreigners represent* any considerable numbers, and are they over and above the 8,000?—They are only spasmodic oases. It is not Mr. Hawkey's duty to detect them, and at is only when he happens to see' them, that he reports it. 22331. It is nobody's duty?—It is nobody's duty. An important thing I should like to> read to the Commission is a dispatch from Sir William Ward, to whom we re- ferred a question with regard to what he had reported from Hamburg. He had said that 13,253 emigrants left Hamburg for the United Kingdom mostly en route for other countries. That was his statement. We asked him wihat he founded that on. He said that 11 The 13,253 emigrants who, m stated in my dispatch No. 4 Commercial, of January 13th, 1903, left this port for the United Kingdom as against 9,855 in 1901 were persons who, before leaving Hamburg declared to the police authorities at this port that their destination was the United Kingdom. According to the opinion of the Hamburg authorities, and, as stated in my dispatch before mentioned, of these emigrants, most probably the large majority h'ad no intention of remain- ing in the United, Kingdom, but most of these persons from some cause or other (chiefly, it may be presumed, because they feared to be sent back to their own homes if it should become known to the Hamburg authorities they were proceeding from this port to their oversea destination by not properly licensed Hamburg lines), kept their intentions, namely, the name of the oversea country to which they were bound, secret. The Hamburg police authorities who super- intend all matters regarding emigration from this; port have informed me that it is to their regret not possible for them to ascertain further particulars concerning the .actual destination of the 13,253 persons above referred to, who left Hamburg ostensibly for the United King- dom in 19(32, nor of other persons) who may leave this port in future under similar conditions, because thesa persons were and are very cautious, and, as a rule, care- lully directed by the Hamburg shipping agents merely to state ' that they are bound for the United' Kingdom.' " That confirmed all that we got from this end, namely, that there is a 'systematic practice of concealing the fact that they are going through. 22332. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We have had the reasons for that explained to us?—I understand you have had the reasons given. 22333. (Chairman.) You can, go cheaper, for instance, by breaking your journey and booking on?:—Yes. 22334. The immigrant does not wish to say that he is going to America when 'he really is %—Yes. 22335. And he says he is only coming here?—Yes, and he is carefully instructed to say so. 22336. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Because otherwise they would be obliged to go and pay a heavier rate by a Ger- man boat going the whole way?1—Yes. Of those 13,000 aliens that Sir William Ward refers to, only 659 were put down on our alien list as en route. As he says, he has no doubt the great majority were. 22337. (Major Evans-'Gordon.) With regard to their actually going on after they come here, a.s a matter of fact he supposes, and you suppose, that that is. -so, but there is no possibility of proving really how many do go on ?—No, we have no figures. 22338. Nobody has any figures ?'—I am not sure the shipping companies could not tell you if they chose. 22339. These would be the Beaver people, who are not in the ring ?—'There may be people in the ring. 22340. (Mr. Norman.) When they are once landed in this country and state they are going on they are absolutely lost sight of by any official here ?—Until they reappear at the port of embarkation. They are treated then a.s emigrants. 22341. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You cannot tell then whether they are the same individuals?—No, but the shipping companies which carry them outwards probably know how many are transmigrants. 22342. (Chairman.) Subject to Mr. Hawkey meeting them at the railway station?1—I merely stated that as showing the chance, of the thing. There are a number of other reports from him. 22343. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How can the shipping companies tell? Supposing a man books at Hamburg to this country—a man named Schmidt, for instance. How can they tell, unless he hasi a contract ticket through ?—I do not want to go into the question of the shipping companies' policy. I may say things which are incorrect, but my belief is that they are well in- formed. 22344. (Mr. Norman.) We have had from Mr. Haw- key, in his evidence: "You see them over the ship's side and you have done with them in their official capacity—(A.) Yes " ?—Yes, that is so. 22345. {Major Evans-Gordon.) While we are on this subject, can you suggest any means whereby these statistics would be much more satisfactory and correct ? —Do you mean by an amendment of the law ? 22346-7. By means of tracing these people, and so on. Can you suggest anything?—Would you like.me to take that question of. statistics generally at the present stage? I will take it with pleasure now or whenever you like. 22348. (Chairman.) Perhaps it would be better to take it altogether. Now what is the next thing?—Then there are these other tables. 22349. We get statistics of these people coming in under the Merchant Shipping Act and the Act of William IV. There is no statement that we ever get of the people going out, these Polish Jews, ever going any- where else, on their return journey home?_No, the Alien Act does not apply. / 22350. So that if, from natural causes, a man starts from here, or he comes here for a short time, we have no account, on what you may call the credit side, of this man going from us ?—There are' no powers under any Act, that I know of to get a record of the number of aliens leaving this country for Europe. It will be within the knowledge of the Commission that we make an estimate. 22351. That estimate must be very, very rough. The Census might help you, but you fall back on veryMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 819 general considerations?—We know the number who go out and the gross number who come back, British and foreign, and I do not think you will be very far wrong—• at least, I am pretty sure you will not be far wrong—in saying that- the number of British subjects travelling to and from the Continent are equal in both ways. There is practically no settlement of English people on the Continent, and therefore if that is so the balance inwards is the balance inwards, of foreigners. 22352. (Major Evam-Gordon.) You do not take into account the people who go to the Continent who may be en route, going to take up appointments in Australia, or India, or elsewhere. That upsets your accounts immedi- ately P—No, I do not think so. 22353. And people who die out there ?—That is a very small figure. I have- gone into all those things. I shall be happy to go into it again if it is important enough. I say it is a fairly sound conclusion that the balance is pretty equal. I understood, from the question that, you put to another witness, that you wanted to elucidate something about this balance inwards of foreigners. 22354. I shall go into that later?—As far as I am concerned, you have come to that now. That is my next item. I want to say something a,bout that balance. Perhaps it is a question that affects the Board of Trade rather than the Commission, but the matter has been raised. That is going back to Table 3, showing the esti- mated balance of the movement of foreign passengers between the United Kingdom and all other countries. 22355. I think it would be the best means of getting on with this if you would tell us what your method is of compiling these total balances inwards and outwards. I understand your method to be this : you assume that most English people who go to the Continent return within a year, or are made up for by an equal number returning after a longer sojourn ?—That is so. 22356. Then you take the whole movement from Eng- land to the Continent?—Yes. 22357. And you subtract it, showing the whole move- ment from the Continent to England ?—Yes. 22358. It leaves a heavy balance inwards?—Yes. 22359. Next take the whole movement of aliens from all foreign countries outside the Continent to England and subtract it from the figures showing the correspond- ing movement of foreigners from England to any and all foreign countries outside the Continent?—Yes. 22360. This leaves a considerable balance outwards ?— Yes. 22361. Now subtract the outward balance on this movement from the inward balance on the Continental movement ?—Yes. 22362. Further subtract the foreign seamen as above ? -—No, I have not subtracted the foreign seamen in this table. 22363. No; but, generally speaking, when you come to your whole results—— 22364. {Chairman.) What tables are you on now ?—It is Table III. I thought I had explained the position of the foreign seamen to the Commission. 22355. {Major Evans-Gordon.) I am taking your general results on the questions I put to the witness that I was going to examine on it. Tell me what has been done in that case ?—But I did not do that. 22366. This is the Board of Trade system, is it not, that I have described so far ?—What I have put in before the Commission is, the best I can do. 22367. Then leave out the seamen. Up to where I have come to, is that correct ?—Yes, the seamen I know have^ been deducted in previous years. I told the Com- mission frankly that I thought, it was wrong to deduct them all. ' 22368. You have not done that, have you ?—I only sa,y there is a deduction. I will tell the Commission gene- rally what this balance is and what its value is. 22369. Up to this point am I correct ?—Yes. 22370. Will you tell us, then, what your balance is when those processes are conducted ?—The balance in 1902, according to those figures, was 25,000; but what I want to tell the Commission is this : In my own evi- dence I laid no stress on that balance. I consider it a useful figure for comparative purpose's, but it is a f general rule statistically that when you get a very 6144 small balance by finding the difference between two Mr. H. L. very big quantities very small errors in your data may Smith '. give you a very big error in your balance. If ~ our figures, both inwards and outwards, were absolutely y correct to the last unit, then our balance would be correct to the last unit, but if you have a 1 per cent. error in your big figure outwards and inwards it will make much more than 1 per cent, error in the small balance. It is not that we have made any mistake, but ii is the law ot things. At the same time you may get a figure which is very useful comparatively over a series of years, which nevertheless you must not lay too much stress upon as regards its total magnitude; and that is (why I laid very little stress in my evidence on this balance. We have to make the best bricks we can with very indifferent straw. Having got that straw, we give the best figures we can. I consider this is a good figure for comparative purposes, and I am quite sure that that figure as it stands is an excessive figure. When you make all the qualifications—and there are a good many more besides seamen—something will have to be added in and something to be taken off; but my impression is that is a very outside figure indeed, although I do think that to deduct^ all the seamen was excessive. 22371. May I make some criticism with regard to what strikes me in connection with this general system? The returns on which you work are to a large extent voluntarily made Dy the steamship and railway com- panies?—All the European figures are. You are not talking of the alien immigration now. You mean the passenger movement to and from Europe. We have absolutely no power to get those. It is a voluntary return. 22372. Consequently admittedly they are incomplete ? —I do not know that they are incomplete except as re- gards one point. On that one point they are undoubtedly incomplete; it is a real point, and it might be useful for you to know. They are very incomplete as regards the infants, for whom tickets are not taken. In the Pas- senger Lists for the movement outside Europe you get every individual infant and child. These figures for the European, passenger movement are returns mainly based on tickets, and they are therefore defective as regards the number of the infants, and no doubt as there is a balance inwards that will make some differ- ence. 22373. My next criticism is that it is obvious to my mind that a much greater number of Englishmen leave the country to take up permanent posts, official or com- mercial, on the Continent, or any places which are reached via Brindisi or Marseilles, or other Continental ports, than return to English ports by those routes?—I do not agree. 22374. I suggest many a man goes out to fill a posi- tion vacated by death or transfer of the previous holder to another part of the Empire ?—No doubt; but we are speaking of European countries. 22375. Yes. Furthermore, more go by the quickest route to take up such posts than return by such routes to the Continental ports. Would you not agree to that ? —You are assuming that all these people would come into the European movement ? 22376. Yes?—I do not think they will. {After re- ferring.) Yes, I should say they do come into it. I do not see any reason that there is for more going out than do come in. 22377. But they do come in to the European move- ment ?—Yes. 22378. Would you not agree that very often men re- turning from service choose the all-English routes for health or economy, ai^d then they do not enter into the Continental movement at all ?—All these things are possible, but they do not affect the question very much. 22379. Surely they affect the whole general conclu- sion ?—I do not think so. 22380. You make such a tremendous assumption that all these people balance each other?—The only thing is to take the chief European countries at the date of the Census, and see as a matter of fact whether the number of people resident there of British nation- ality has increased or not. That is the only direct test I can see. 22381. I thought you said that a 1 per cent, error in a big figure would make a large difference in the re- sult?—This would not be anything like 1 per cent. 22382. What I want to point out is that these figures820 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. L. Smith. H May 1903 are liable to very great criticism ?—They are liable to a, number of general qualifications. I do not regard that one as so serious as some others, because, as a matter of fact, the English colony in Europe is not increasing. If anything, it is decreasing, as is shown by the Census figures. 22383. There is another point I want to put about this, namely, that this method of compiling the figures ignores the question of the quality and the incidence of the immigration altogether?—Of course it does. It simply calls one man one unit. 22384. I attach importance to this, as to the quality, because you may have an American useful man going out and an organ grinder coming .in?—Of course; at is a statistical question. One man goes out and an- other one comes in. 22385. The incidence and quality is, in my view, a very important matter. Then I need not elaborate that point, because the incidence is not touched upon ?—No. (Chairman.) If the Census returns are correct, all this comes to nothing. 22386. (Major Evans-Gordon.) My general point is that, with regard to your figures and the figures put in by Mr. Emanuel in his statement, these general results showing a net increase, or even a decrease in certain years, really are very rough, and open to all sorts of . qualification ?—They are very rough, and they are open to all sorts of qualifications, I agree. It does not prove that they are very largely erroneous. They are subject to error on both sides, and I lay down as a general rule that personally, from a statistical point of view, I do not trust very much to the small balance of large quantities, because an error one way or the other tends to be magnified. But no doubt in the present case the biggest deduction that ought to be made is for seamen, although I do not think all seamen should be deducted. (Chairman.) Unless you attach importance to this, I confess we get on very unstable ground in taking this estimate. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It was with reference espe- cially to the figures put in by Mr. Emanuel. I put it provisionally then that I would cross-examine on those figures here. 22387. (Mr. Normam,.) To bring us back to the main subject, what, in a word, is the object of this table and this balance ? What does it tend, so far as it may have value, to show ?—So far as it may have value, it would show, I think, whether the balance inwards of foreign passengers increased or decreased. I consider that the kind of error we have been talking of would run through the series of years, and would give us an indication of whether the thing increased or decreased. 22388. That is, if the thing has any value it would aid us in attempting to estimate the amount of alien population m this country at any given time ?—Yes ; or whether it is tending to grow or not; and then I do not myself admit that these imperfect figures cannot be made proper use of if you do not ride them to death. They have their use. 22389. That is, roughly speaking, the object of it, to aid us in attempting to estimate the amount of alien population?—The flow of it. 22390. With a view to its amount; that is the end of it?—It may be. 22391. In that case, I want to call your attention to this passage from the Report of the Select Committee on Immigration and Emigration of 1888, which says : " It is, therefore, apparent that we cannot look to a comparison between the statistics of immigration and emigration to assist us in determining with any degree of accuracy the amount of the alien population of this country." Would you agree to that?—That was in 1888, before we collected these figures. We had not got any figures for Europe at all. 22392. It refers to the principle. This passage in the Committee's report says that you cannot look to a comparison between the statistics of immigration and emigration?—If they meant that you never can, I do not agree with it. If it meant that with the data be- fore them they were unable to, I certainly agree. It is all a question of the perfection of the data. There is an enormous passenger traffic, and the question is, what restrictions we are willing to put into it for the purpose of getting statistics. 22393. You would not agree with it as a matter of principle that you cannot take these statistics?—No.; in that way I do not agree with the Report of the Com- mittee. Perhaps I ought to say, if you are estimating the growth of foreign population (this point was made by a witness), you must allow for death. In our statis- tics, of course, we simply take the balance of movement, but all the while this movement is going on people are dying. A man born here is British. There would be something like 4,000 deaths in the year, which materially affects this balance. 22394. (Lord Bothschild.) Granted that your calcula- tions are very rough, there is no reason to suppose they are rougher in one year than another. You adopt the same principle every year, do you not ?—Yes. 22395. According to your principle, the balance in 1902 was 25,000, and in 1900 it was very nearly 29,000 ? —Yes. 22396. You have no statistics about the large num- ber of Englishmen employed on the Continent?—Yes, I have the Census returns of the foreign countries. 22397. What is it ?—The number of persons of British nationality in Germany at the last census, 1900, was 16,173. At the previous census, 10 years before, it was 14,713. The table shows the corresponding figures for the other chief European countries, and entirely nega- tives the supposition that there is a settlement of English people on the Continent . • (Adjourned for a short time.) Colonel Sir Howard Vincent, m.p., called; and Examined. Colonel 22398. (Chairman.) We are aware you represent on© Sir H. of the Divisions of Sheffield in Parliament?—Yes. Vincent, m.p. 22399. In your capacity as Member of the House of Commons you have taken a preat interest in the sub- ject of alien immigration ?—Yes, I have for many years. 22400. The Commission have had called to their at- tention a Bill that you, in conjunction with Mr. Ridley and others, have introduced into the House, dealing with the power of excluding and deporting criminal aliens ?—Yes. 22401. That is the sole object of that Bill?—That is the sole object of that Bill. Not that I think the sub- ject ought to be limited to that. 22402. JBut the Bill itself is confined to that?—Yes. 22403. I think it would be the view of the Commis- sion, in asking you to be good enough to give us your assistance, to limit your attention in your evidence to this Bill, and not to deal with the subject generally. We have'asked you to come and give evidence before us in order to see if you could render us any assistance in dealing with your Bill and the subject contained in it. In the first clause you say: "Any alien who has been convicted oh indictment of a crime, or, in the case of foreign convictions, of a crime that is classified as an indictable offence under the laws of the United Kingdom, shall be excluded from admission into the United Kingdom." Will you assume hypothetically there is no question about the exclusion of criminals ? If it can be effected within proper limits it would be de- sirable. Assume that a foreigner arrives here, and you wish to find out whether he has been convicted—first of all, take it in the foreign country—of a crime that would be a crime here ; what is the practical step that you suggest could be taken in order to determine whether he be or be not a criminal ?—At the major ports of immigration—that is, London, Hull, Grimsby, and Harwich—I should have alien immigration officers, who would conduct such an inquiry. I think it would be difficult, not to say, impossible to have a regular im- migration department at Dover, Folkestone, and New- haven, where the great Continental traffic comes over, which would be too large an affair altogether; but at the major ports on the East Coast I think there would be no difficulty in making the inquiry by proper im- migration officers. Then I think as regards the others that proper officers should be posted there—such as is indeed, the case at the present time—watching the im- migration into the country, both of our own people and of foreigners, and that any person who there was reasonable cause to suspect might be detained for in-MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 821 -quiry for a limited time, or questions might be put 1:o him; and the existence of the power of deportation and of making inquiry might alone be a very consider- able deterrent, I think, to prevent these people coming into this country in the way they are evidently doing at the present time. There was an Act which was passed two years ago with regard to prostitutes' bullies—the (souteneurs. That, of course, is inoperative to a certain extent, but the mere fact that that law exists, and that there is a power of punishment, and that those men are unlawfully in this country, has had a useful and deterrent effect. 22404. Let us take first what you call the major ports, and they are really the major ports in importance as regards this alien immigration P—Yes, quite so. 22405. There you would have an officer either of the Home Office or the Board of Trade, but at all events an officer representing the interests of the State P—Yes, I should say a Local Government Board officer, if I may ■suggest it. 22406. What assistance would you afford to this officer in order to detect whether the person coming in be or be not a criminal ?—The returns which are fur- nished by the captain under the Act of William IY. would be gone into then with the aliens individually, in exactly the same way ae they are in New York, where every passenger passes in turn before the immigration officer, and would be liable to be questioned by him on the veracity of the particulars furnished concerning him. 22407. We know that machinery, but do you anticipate that if a man comes and the Act of William IV. was still standing, and the man gives his own name, and he is asked, "Have you been convicted?" do. you antici- pate if he had been convicted he would say " Yes " ?- - .No, he would not eay yes, but nearly all foreigners have papers of some sort, and it would be quite the exception .to find a man who has not got any papers of any kind .relating to his identity. If he had no papers of identity .at all that would be a case in which a man might be detained in an immigration home, not as a prisoner, but in an immigration home for further inquiries, either .through the foreign police or through the foreign consuls, or in some way which would not be very difficult to carry out. I strongly think, as the expense of a home of that sort or an office of that kind would be very considerable, that we ought to have a poll-tax or a contribution by these aliens towards the immigration fund, in exactly the same way as they have in the United States. There there is a poll-tax of two dollars -towards the immigration fund, which is sufficient to pay •the whole expenses. 22408. Would you make any regulation to the effect that the immigrant should have certain papers in his possession before you pass him?—I think it would be difficult considering our objection to anything in the nature of a passport. 22409. You do not suggest that we should merge, as at were, into the old passport system?—I think there would be great difficulties in this country in doing that. 22410. Must it not occur that the men we are anxious and you are anxious to deal with would be the type of criminal ?—Yes. 22411. He may be clever and deceptive. If you im- pose this regulation on him, and say he must have some papers, do not you think he would take pretty good care that he got his papers?—Yes, that is so; but I should like to call your Lordship's attention to the fact that my successor at Scotland Yard, Sir Robert Ander- son, wrote a very instructive article on that subject the .other day in the " Nineteenth Century," in which he said he could put his hands upon them—they are well known to us. They are perfectly easy to find, and he says, "These criminals are better known to Scotland Yard than the King's Ministers, and there would be no difficulty in putting our hands upon them.'' 22412. Is that referring to a man who arrives in this country for the first time in his life from Hamburg or Bremen, or does it refer to* the criminals who have been here some time ?—There is a very strong feeling as regards foreigners in this country. It is extraordinary the amount of information that comes to us regarding foreigners of a suspicious type, for instance. 22413. We are dealing with a foreigner who would have an obstacle put in his way, and he has to get round the obstacle. How can we beat him if he chooses to come in with forged papers or a disguise and gives a false name? What power would an officer have of de- tecting him?—There is no absolute power. You could not keep him off, in the same way that the French pass- Colonel port system or the Russian passport system, or the in- Sir H, scription at hotels does not keep out all English criminals, Vincent,, M.P. for instance, from Paris. There are a great many false ~ ~ _ names given, but still the existence of these precau- May lMUa. tionary measures acts as a deterrent. There can be no possible system of keeping out an individual who is determined to get in by fraud, but the mere fact of his having to use fraud to get in very likely will lead him to commit himself in some way or another. 22414. You must give great discretion to the officer when you say the man would commit himself?—Yes, of course, you would. There would be no idea of charging him. It would not be a criminal offence, and there is no reason why he should not be asked questions. 22415. We have first to do that. Do you suggest we can do anything by our own consuls, and that they should do someting at the point of embarkation?— The Americans do, but the traffic is so large to this country that it would be extremely difficult to do it, and would mean a very considerable augmentation of the consular staff and consular offices. That would mean a permit to the shipping companies to issue a ticket. 22416. The consul at the port would scarcely know a man who came, say, from the South of Poland. He would scarcely know his character, and he would have to act on hearsay if he gives him any permit with regard to character ?—I do not think it would be possible with onr consular system, which is a defective consular sys- tem. Our consular system is not anything like the consular system of the United States, or many other countries. Our country has not got the staff, and it would mean a very considerable augmentation of the consular offices, which I think there would be a great objection to. 22417. Then may I take it that your Bill, if you have the power of carrying it out, would be limited to cer- tain ports in the entirety of its action ?—That is as re- gards the entirety of its action as is the Act of William IV. in practice. 22418. It is general in terms, but limited in practice? —Yes, and it is limited to deck and third-class pas- sengers now, although it is applicable to saloon pas- sengers, but in practice it only applies to the deck or third-class. 22419. I think I gather from you that if that is done, of course we have to deal with the probability of evasion by the criminal going round to ports to which it does not apply. You tell us you do not wish to see. the pass- port system revived?—I do not think it would be practicable. 22420. And also you do not see that w© can do much with our consuls' in the ports?—No, I think we must take all the precautions in this country. 22421. In the declared ports you would wish to see there the same machinery applied, to deal with persons made more effective than it is at present?—Yes. 22422. And in the ports not declared you would rely only on the general power of detection, such as it is ?— Permissive power entirely. Before we leave the Bill entirely, I should like to call attention to the fact that the Bill, as you have it before you, is not quite right. I was ill when it was prepared, and was only able to give instructions in bed. The words, " Provided always this shall not apply to political offences," belong to Clause 1, and it is now in Clause 2. It ought to belong to " Entry." 22423. Then Clause 2, " Any alien who is convicted of any offence under the laws of the United Kingdom may, in addition to any term of penal servitude or imprison- ment to which he may be sentenced in respect of such offence, be ordered by the court to be deported." This clause would be an assumption that the man would be ordered to leave in invitum—he would have to go ?—Yes. 22424. He may say, " I won't go," but we have poiwer to put him off the vessel. I will not ask you to solve the question of when the vesisel gets out of the three mile limit, what would happen. But when we- get toi the port the man says, " I aim not going to land," and the cap- tain says, "You shall." The foreign State says, "We don't want this man to' land, and he shall not land." You leave him on board the vessel. How shall we have to deal with that possible state of things ?—There might be occasional difficulty, but he could not get back here, because he would come 'back here against the law. 22425. But he would be on board an English vessel H —He would be on board an English vessel. I think the822 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: 'Colonel shipping people would find a means of getting him off • Sir H. that ship. Vfyicent, M.P, 22426. The foreign nations may or may not object, 14 May:1903. but assuming they object, is this more than a matter of - treaty ?—Of course that is rather a difficult point. 22427. In order to carry out the latw with the ' authority and dignity that belongs to. our law when the foreign nation says, " We cannot receive them , back," we cannot pass a brutum fulmen. Can we do more than, ask for a treaty ?—We cannot say absolutely that the French Government should receive a French subject, but I think it is very likely the man would take steps to get into France in some way or another on his own account. 22428. If the man knows when he gets over there he will be sent to prison for something he has done; it would be the last place he would want to go to ?—Yes. 22429. Supposing hypothetically now, not actually within your Bill, but as part of a sentence on a prisoner that he should get three months' imprisonment, and instead of putting him under police supervision we said, " We expect you to leave the country witihin a certain time." Then he does not leave the country. It may be he has not the means, or does not choose to go, and he may get some further imprisonment for not going, but a good many of them we find from experience will leave ?—Yes. 22430. That is not your Bill, but is that according toyour view what would happen?—Yes, that is my view, that a great many would do it. Then we came to this practical point. About 4,000 have been rejected in the past year from the United States. The shipping companies have furnished the Board of Trade with re- turns, which show that 450 (speaking only in round numbers) of those 4,000 have been sent back to this country, and the answer of the President of the Board of Trade to myself in the House of Commons was that all but 47, or some small number, had been repatriated. How could the shipping companies repatriate them? Exactly the same difficulty would have existed in their case. 22431. Your second clause deals with the question of expatriation. They are not convicted persons. The ship- ping companies may say, " You shall land," and there is no object in the country saying " We will not receive you," but if you have a criminal, the country may say, " We will not have criminals back." It is a broad dis- tinction ?—Yes, I do mot know how the shipping com- panies have succeeded in repatriating them. I admit there is a consideralble difficulty. 22432. You have mo solution of the question if the man says, " I will not go," and the foreign nation says "We will not take him," you have no solution as to how you are to get rid of him ?—There is no absolute rule that I can mention, but the mere existence of the power is of itself a very large deterrent indeed. 22433. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The claiss of criminals that you desire to deal with are what one may call the serious and important class of people, who come here for the sake of crime ?—*Quitei so. 22434. The coiners, the burglars, the forgers, the house-breakers, and so on, principally?—Yes. 22435. Those, of course, you may call the aristocracy of crime, and they would resort to every possible means ; if they thought they could make their harvest here they would come here if they could ?—Yes. 22436. Can you have any effective means of exclusion unless you apply it to all ports?—You cannot have anything which would exclude all criminals—that is impossible. All foreign countries, in spite of their pre- cautions (even the great police precautions of Russia aire not infallible), cannot keep everybody out of the country, because a large number of Russians succeed in leaving Russia without passports. 22437. There is an inherent difficulty that Lord James has referred to of identification. We find it difficult enough to identify our own criminals, and it would be very difficult to identify foreign criminals ?—Of course there is difficulty connected with it. 22438. Would you say it was impossible ?—No, I should not. Nothing is impossible. 22439. It is 20 years, since you were at the Criminal Investigation Department ?—Yes, but there . are many facilities now, and- many ways of identification. 22440. (Chairman.) A man goes from Poland and comes to Hamburg, and arrives afterwards at the* London Docks. Where is the power to identify that, man ? You never know who he is?—I admit there is a. great difficulty about it, and in spite of the American system a great many get into America, who have no busi- ness there, and that is why they take steps to examine the people after they have been there two years, and. who have become a public charge, or who have got in. surreptitiously. We have all sorts of laws against house- breakers, and murderers, and thieves, but ifois not am infallible law. A great many escape. There is the power of the public authority to punish if a person is de- tected, but it does not prevent all crime. 22441. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Supposing instead of. adopting any method of exclusion on this ground at the- ports you empowered the courts on conviction for either • of certain specified crimes, or crime generally, to make an order that if found within the country within a. specified time, say 30 days, the man should be treated as aai incorrigible rogue under the Vagrancy Act, how do • you think that would work ?—That would be something. It would not be so good as deportation, but that would work. 22442. There are practical difficulties about deporta- tion to which Lord James has referred ?—1 admit there- are practical difficulties. 22443. There is not so much practical difficulty about that suggestion I have put to you, and it is more analogous to our procedure?—Yes. There are practical difficulties, but in considering those practical difficulties ■ I think the Royal Commission ought to remember that., the foreign nations would be very loth to raise any question on this matter with us. The deportation from. France and Belgium at the present time is very con- siderable to this country. 22444. I am. not quite so sure of that. Prima facie- you would say that that suggestion was worth con- sidering?—It is worth considering. Anything is worth, considering. 22445. You were referred to the Act of 1898, the Souteneur Act, which you know was followed by a very- large exodus of foreign bullies ?—Yes, but a very con- siderable number have come back again. 22446. There is a great difficulty of proof there?—• Yes, but the mere fact of the existence of the power to < punish is a consideralble deterrent. 22447. (Mr. Vallance.) You foresee difficulty with' regard to the enforcement of the production of papers ?—- In asking for passports—not in the production of papers. 22448. I do not know whether you ever had a* foreigner came to you for a situation as a footman or anything of that sort. You would naturally ask him for ■ his papers. You find no difficulty with regard to it. - If he says, ".I have no pajpers," you say, " This man will not suit me at all, because I know he is a German, and , I know he ought to have papers." Therefore you do not employ him. But he finds no difficulty in producing his • papers. Seeing that it is part of the law in Russia that- no person shall leave the country without a passport, would the non-production of a passport in your ' judgment be held to be an objection to his entrance into < this country ?—Yes, I think the individual ought to be able to give some proof of his identity without an absolute passport system, which I think our people would not allow. 22449. Do you know whether the poll tax which is • imposed in the United States is universally applicable, or is there some special definition of an immigrant ?—> No, it is applicable I take it to all saloon and other passenigers. They do not call them in America deck or - third-class passengers, but they call them "other"-- "saloon and other passengers." I have the American law here. 22450. (Major Evans-^Gordon.) There is a power exist- - ing in foreign countries to send back people here,?— - Yes, there is. 22451. An English criminal convicted in France would be sent 'back as a rule afBer the expiration of his sen-1 tence?—Yes., it is made part of his sentence. 22452. Would not that be a thing in which we might , claim, a mutual right with foreign countries ?—I think so, and I think foreign countries would be very loth , indeed to raise any question with us on our deportation of Frenchmen, for instance. 22453. With regard to the point of the Consuls, do )MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 823 not you think our Consuls at foreign ports could be of -assistance in weeding the people who com© here.—Yes, I think they might be, were they well-paid Consuls, but our consular service is of such an extraordinary character. There are so many honorary Consuls, there are so many foreigners who are Consuls:, and it is a very defective service compared with the consular ser- vice of America, where there are commercial agents .adequately paid and remunerated. 22454. I was told by the Consuls in Libau, Riga, and Hamburg and other places that they thought they could be of assistance, arid that some system of that kind should be adopted ?—Of course, they would be much better judges than I should be. I am only speaking as an outsider. If they said they could, be of .assistance, I think they might be, but I think they would want extra remuneration and an extra staff. 22455. They might claim to have some voice in the •selection of the people who propose to come over here as settlers?—Yes; I think there would be some diffi- culty as regards that with the traffic so large as it is, "but J think it would be worth considering if anything ^could be done in that way, and if the foreign Consul at Libau thought it would be feasible, he would be a much -"better judge than I am. I speak only as an outsider. 22456. Something in the nature of the system that *was adopted recently with regard to 'South Africa, •when all who proposed to go* to South Africa had to -sign certain papers and go through our Consuls ?—Yes. ' 22457. That meant that those proceeding to South Africa having to pass through the hands of the Consul, i>he Consul would become more or less responsible, and lie was able to institute inquiries on the spot with regard to their character and so forth, and it was a useful check ?—Yes. 22458. (Chairman.) Where was the Consul who had to sign? .Would it be a Consul in the foreign place. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, they all had to do it during the war. ; 22459. (Chairman.) They were mostly British sub- jects going through? (Major Evans-Gordon.) No ; they were foreigners. (Witness.) At the present time, before the shipping -companies will embark you to South Africa you have .to get permission to land. . 22460. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is on account of the Cape law?-—Yes, in order that the shipping oomr panies may not be at the expense of bringing the indi- vidual back. They will not issue a ticket till they have seen your authority to land. 22461. The existence of a law in any country sets up a restrictive standard at once ?—Exactly. 22462. (Mr. Norman.) Your view about the character of alien immigration, Sir Howard, is based upon close acquaintance with the European police methods ?—Yes ; and although it is so many years since I left Scotland Yard, I have kept up my knowledge of the foreign police very closely indeed, and the other day I was the representative at the Anti-Anarchist Conference. 22463. Without violating the secret nature of that conference, I was going to ask you whether there was any conclusion you formed that you feel at liberty to state?—I should have no objection whatever to saying that the great danger in all countries is this expulsion from one country to the other of these bad characters— the expulsion from Italy into Switzerland, and expul- sion from Eranice into Belgium, and into England,. The main object of the Police Committee, in which I took a leading part, was to prevent this expulsion from one country to another without notice to the police, and that each country should keep its own bad characters. 22464. Then, in consequence of that, there would be no resentment, so far as you are able to judge, on the part of foreign countries if we attempted to exclude th6 alien criminal ?—-No, I think not. 22465. Of course, it is the fact that foreign countries not only expel British criminals convicted there, but they can expel, and necessarily to this country, their own criminals?—There is the power in the Minister of the Interior to sign a warrant of expulsion. 22466. But the person expelled can only come to this country or to the United States because he is excluded by the legislation of other countries?—As a matter of fact he is generally conducted hither. For instance, an officer of the French Minister of the Interior, " Surete Generale," would conduct him on board the Calais boat and leave him there, and the officer conducting him would only go on shore himself at the last moment. 22467. It would be quite a waste of time and money on his part to conduct him to the Russian or German frontier ?—Yes. 22468. Therefore he takes him to the English fron- tier?—Yes, nearly always. Some few are tried to be sent to Belgium, but not with very great success. Colonel Sir H. . Vincent, M.P. 14 May 1903. Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith recalled; and further Examined. 22469. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you happen to ~have the statistics here with regard to the people who -have been deported by the Belgian police to this country for all causes?—I have here a return of the number .and nationalities of persons deported from Belgium to .the United Kingdom in each of the last six years. They are supplied in a special return through the ^Foreign Office, and: we got them from the Home Office. I thought the Commission would like to have thean. There were 67 persons deported! in those six years by the police, of whom all but three were British. Those three . were one in 1898, one in 1899, and one in 1900. I am informed that the great majority of those who were so deported were deported for vagrancy, and that the .majority of the remainder, had been previously sen- tenced to terms of imprisonment for theft. 22470. They are the English criminals sent back to i.his country? 22471. (Chairmam,.) They were English people all but -three. Have you any trace of what the three non- English were sent for?—I do not know whether we can trace them, but I think we can get those particulars, 22472... (Major Evans - Gordon.) There were three foreign ^subjects sent from Belgium to us?—Yes. , 22473. (Chairman.) We have got this fact, that there -were some 60 people who were sent over by the Belgian •Government to this country ?—Yes. ... 22474.: And no trace of any repudiation by us?—No, -there is no repudiation, I believe. 22475. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Were they convicted people?—They were deported for vagrancy; I do not ■know whether they were convicted for vagrancy. 22476. (Major Evans-Gordon.} And some were con- victed of theft?—Yes. The last of those was three years ago, and I should think probably they did not know the nationalities. 22477. How is the information collected?—The Belgian Government furnish it. 22478. (Chairman.) To the Home Office?—I do not know whether it comes direct to the Home Office or through the Foreign Office. 22479. (Mr. Norman.) Am these people who were actually sentenced in Belgium sentenced to be deported to this country?—I am afraid I cannot tell you that. 22480. Does it include people who were simply put on board the boat sailing for this country by the police ? —'It should1. 22481. But does it. My distinction is this: people who were simply deported, and people who were specifically deported to this country because their origin was in this country. The two things are very different ? —Yes. 22482. (Chairman.) Is there such a . thing as being deported because their origin is this country unless they are objectionable people. 22483. (Mr. Norman.) A British subject is convicted in Belgium, and one of the things ordered at the con- clusion of his sentence is that he be deported to this country. 22484. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It does not appear they were convicted at all?—It does not appear in these figures. You will have the original returns at the Home Office, and you will probably be able to tell more about them. 22485. (Chairman.) They were deported at the wili of the Belgian Government without consulting us?— Yes. Mr. H. LI. Smith824 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. LI, (Mr. Norman.) My only point is, that unless these "Smith. points were subject to some sort of criticism it might -- mean that 67 was the total number during this time, 14 May 1903. we have n of this table- refers to " Principal changes in the rates of wages." Under the head of 1901 : " London. Boot and Shoe Operatives (Jewish). Advance in piece rates 'of from 10 to 12^ per cent." I doj not find any other figure dealing with London wages but that ?•—There was also a change in the high class of work—the bespoke. 22502. This is Jewish ?—Yes. 22503. Did they obtain a different advance from the English workmen ?—I will look into that particular change and see what it was. 22504. (Major Evans-Gordon.) These are a very few people who are affected by these things?—These are simply picked out as the principal changes. 22505. Do I understand it means that 1,560 people were affected?—Y&s. 22506. And that the advance with regard to those 1,560 people was from 101 to 12^ per cent. ?—Yes. 22507. (Mr. Norman.) And in a great many of these small shops tihe information is given by the employer in reply to your request ?—Most of these changes that are taken out here are changes affecting a number of Employers. They are current changes. (Major Evans-Gordon.) And big people? 22508. (Mr. Vallance.) Is it not the fact that in: London the wages in the boot and shoe trade, as well as the clothing trade, are the highest in the country ? —The piece rates are the highest, I believe. There is- such a vital distinction between changes in the rates paid for a given kind of labour and changes in the average rate of earnings in the whole trade. Both, things are called changes in the rate of wages, but they may move entirely in the opposite direction- Average earnings may go down while the rates go up, because of the changes of machinery or processes which* have varied the proportion between the higher skilled' and the lower skilled people. You introduce a machine which enables you to use less skilled labour,, and you may be paying the same rate or higher wages, for the skilled labour, and yet your wages bill may be lower. 22509. Looking generally at the boot and shoe trade since 1893, there has been apparently, with two or three exceptions, a general advance?—There has been an advance in that sense. 22510. In the case of Kingswood,. where 500 people- are affected, there is a reduction from 5 to 15 per cent, on piece rates. How would that be explained in fgwce of the general wages increasing?—Kingswood is aMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 825 peculiar trade. I am speaking as an outsider, because I am not a practical expert in the boot and shoe trade, but I do know that Kingswood and the Leeds district, which I think is the only important district that is at all like Kingswood, are the centres of what is known as the heavy boot trade. I do not know that that explains anything except that they might be affected by causes that would not operate in the other centres. It is a different class of work, and at Kingswood it is, or was, very largely domestic work. 22511. Taking 1899, while in Northamptonshire there was an advance of £d. per pair on machinfumade Army boots, there is a reduction of 10 per -cent, at Birmingham off piece rates ?—'For those 500 people. 22512. Yes ?—It would not be fair to say there would be a difference of ^d. per pair of machine-made Army boots throughout Northamptonshire, because that only * applies to 1,000 people. 2251-3. (Chairman.) Tihe number employed in Leicester is very much in excess of those employed here ?—Yes. 22514. (Sir Kenelm JDigby.) Are these figures typical of the whole trade?—There is no doubt they are typical when they are summarised. You could not say that the rate of wages in Northampton had generally risen, because a certain small number of people in Northamp- ton had got this advance, but if over a series of years you find that, adding up all the changes which result in an advance, you find a very great preponderance over those changes in which there is a decrease, I have no hesitation in saying that wages have gone up. 22515. The result is that they have gone up, except during last year, when, taking Table XVII., there is a decrease of ll^d. ?—Yes. The net result of the changes of wages recorded was a rise, but it does not necessarily mean that the average earnings went up. Then I put in the tables relating to the tailoring trade, but the table of wages in the tailoring trade is only interesting as referring to the old-fashioned bespoke tailoring. I pass over that. Then I have put in some figures show- ing the exports of these goods, such as apparel, slops, and boots and shoes, so that you should have the figures of foreign trade showing the export trade. 22516. {Chairman.) It is of value?—Apparel and slops by value only, £6,297,550 in 1902, and leather •boots and shoes is given both by dozen pairs and by value. 22517. Have we any table showing in the same way the import of these goods, boots and shoes especially, and apparel and slops?—Yes, I have got the imports of boots and shoes. • 22518. I want it rather earlier in date. May I ask Major Gordon about what time you would put it if you were tracing historically what we call this pre- sent immigration? Looking at it as closely as I can, I can see traces of it beginning about the year 1882. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is about it; I should say roughly 1880. (Chairman.) At any rate, we are perfectly safe in say- ing 1882 ? (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, 1882 was when the great influx began. It was coincident with the iMay laws of Russia to a large extent. 22519. (Chairman.) Have you any figures either showing the imports before 1882?—Yes, I could get them out, but I have not got them with me. 22520. If you would forward them to the secretary I would be glad. I should like the figures both with regard to apparel and slops ?—I am afraid I cannot •give them for apparel. Imports of apparel were not distinguished in the Board of Trade returns at the time. 22521. (Major Evans-Gordon.) In 1888 the leather •boots and shoes exports were £1,800,000 roughly, and in 1902 they were £1,896,000, again roughly ?—Yes. 22522. So the exports of these things have remained practically stationary ? (Chairman.) In value, but in dozen pairs there is a difference of 130,000. . 22523. {Major Evans-Gordon.) It has gone up with regard to the number of pairs, but remains stationary as regards the value ?—Yes, the markets to which they have gone have changed very much. 6144 (Major Evans-Gordon.) The war would come in there, Mr. H. LI. because if you take 1901 there is hardly any increase Smith. over 1888. Therefore, if you deduct the one item of —— the war it has neither increased in quantity nor in 14 May 1903* value. -- 22524. (Chairman.) If you take 661,000 dozen pairs and 678,000 dozen pairs as being practically the same figure, the one sells for £1,800,000, and the other—the 678,000 dozen pairs—sells for £1,653,000, so that it falls off in value ?—There have been a great number of causes at work. Tihe American competition has become a very serious thing with us in neutral markets, and has almost threatened to invade our own marKera, We have had to fight for that. We have the competi- tion of Massachusetts. 22525. This is with regard to boots and shoes?—Yes. 22526. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But the import into this country of bootsi and shoes is quite insignificant compared with the total output?—But if you put the American exports alongside, you will see where the competition comes in. 22527. (Mr. Norman.) Some witnesses have laid stress on the importance of this very cheap labour in order to enable us to establish a great export business ? —You must not think that these tables disprove that in any way, because I mention the great factor as being the growth of American competition. Then the next table is the same thing for apparel and slops. The market is Colonial chiefly in both cases. 22528. (Chairman.) Then we may go to the alien population in certain foreign countries?—That was a return I was asked for by more than one member of the Commission to get, and it has been taken out from the official statistics from the various countries, and you -have got the dates at which it was taken. I can- not go behind the foreign census returns, but I am afraid they are not all on the same basis. In certain cases they count among the aliens foreign born children, and in some cases they count the home born children of foreign parents. I know that in France and in Germany they count the children of foreign born parents as foreigners. 22529. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The laws are different? —Exactly. It follows the law of nationality. Then again, the proportion of aliens to the total population of a given area must depend very largely on the size of the area. Unless you are comparing areas of the same size you would get nothing comparable. 22530. (Chairman.) The United States is a great re- cipient—it stands out with an enormous percentage— but you would expect a greater proportion of aliens where you get a Continental country with only mere frontier lines surrounding, so that one person can pass over that frontier line with great facility compared with people who have to go to an island entailing! a sea voyage to get to it?—Yes. 22531. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) As a matter of fact, the United Kingdom has a smaller percentage, excepting Spain and Sweden P—There is a note with regard to Norway and Sweden, because Norway counts Swedes in Norway as aliens. 22532. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The United States figure is the foreign-born population ?—Yes. Of course, it would be to some extent affected by the date of the Census, especially in tourist countries. The Swiss figures are taken in December^ when the number of tourists would be the lowest. 22533. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) At all events, the fact remains that the percentage of aliens in England is 0*69, which is smaller than anything except Spain and Sweden ?—Yes. 22534. If you take France, which is 2-66, in some parts of the South of France for miles and miles over the border there is not a workman employed except Italians. They walk over the border ?—Yes. Then the next thing I have got to deal with are three points on which I w«us told that some information would be asked, and I am ready with it. The first is the immigration from Libau. That was the subject of some evidence by Dr. Williams. It may be remembered that some communication was addressed to the Board of Trade as the result of that evidence with regard to the condition of the ships bring- ing immigrants from Libau. On that some representa- tions were addressed by the Foreign Office to the foreign Government concerned at the instance of the Board of 5 M826 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H.'LI. Trade. I understand from the reports that the condi- Bmith. tion has very largely improved. .4 May 1903. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I can testify to that, because --I have seen it myself. They have done a good deal, hut the ships are not really suitable for the immigrant traffic. They do a great deal now to come up to our requirements. Mr. Knie was part owner of the ships, and he did all he possibly could to deal with it. 22535. (Chairman.) The Board of Trade agrees with what Major Evans-Gordon has said, that the state of the vessels has improved ?—Yes, and I have some informa- tion about it. The last report was dated the 8th May, saying that the accommodation is very largely improved. We communicated with the City Corporation, asking them whether they were going to test the case, and 4 whether they could proceed under the law of nuisance, and asking them to inform us of the result. The reply from the Town Clerk at the Guildhall was that the conditions had so greatly improved that they did not think any steps were necessary at present. 22536. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The objectionable fea- ture is the carrying of very large quantities of ponies by each ship, and the immigrants and the ponies are somewhat mixed up. But still the conditions are much better?—Yes. I do not know whether the Commission is aware that a very great majority of the immigrants from Libau are transmigrants, and not people coming to •ettle. They are people going through. 22537. A good many of them are unquestionably, but here again we are face to face with the difficulty of proving it. Mr. Knie was over here, and he said though he believed it, and was practically certain of it, it was not susceptible of proof?—That is so. 22538. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I suppose it does not lie at all within your province to» say anything about the condition of foreign ships? — The Board of Trade have said, in a letter to the Chairman, that if this power of proceeding against the ships for a nuisance did, not prove sufficient they would have to consider an alteration of the law. They stay : " The Board observes that in the report of the Medical Officer of Health for the Port of London (Dr. Williams) for the month ending 24th May last suggestion is made that in the case of unsanitary foreign vessels arriving at London a statutory nuisance notice should be served upon the masters of the ships while within the jurisdiction of the Fort of London Sanitary Committee, and the Board propose to inquire whether this suggestion has been adopted, and, if so, ipith what result. I am to add, that if this course cannot be adopted and so proves fruitless, the only alternative remedy would appear to be fresh legislation, whereby foreign steamers would be brought under the same regulations as British steamers when arriving with passengers at ports in the United Kingdom, and the question of undertaking such legislation is one which, in the opinion of the Board, deserves to be carefully con- sidered." 22539. (Chairman.) Have we any power under the ' Merchant Shipping Act at all to deal with foreign ships ? —No, I believe none in this respect with regard to ships coming from Europe. 22540. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) As the law stands at pre- sent, it is simply a question of whether a ship is a house within the meaning of the Public Health Act, so that a nuisance on board a ship can be dealt with ?—Yes. In this matter the City Corporation are not prepared at present to raise the case. 22541. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not think there is a case at the present moment, but there is always the chance of the ships coming in that objectionable condi- tion, and you have no right to deal with them here ?— Yes. This has no bearing on that particular point, but there is one thing I should like to mention to the Com- missioners, namely, that at Libau our Vice-Consul reported that the number of immigrants leaving that port for London and Hull, according to the returns from the gendarme authorities', in 1902 was 11,914, and that our alien lists showed the number arriving at London or Hull from Libau was 12,320. The return in the one case is' of the people who left Libau within a year, and the other figures are those who arrived. It is a very exact confirmation of the total. 22542. I do not understand why you. do not make them agree?—The number at Libau is the number who left Libau in 1902, and a number of them would arrive in 1903. On the other hand, some would arrive in 19Q2 who started in 1901. 22543. (Chairman.) Then it would apply to the year before in the same way?—Yes, if we take it over a series of years they would almost agree exactly. 22544. (Major Evans-^Gordon.) There can be no possi- bility of mistake there, supposing they can add carefully, because the gendarmes take most stringent precau- tions. There is not a single creature allowed on board the ship?—I put in that figure as a confirmation of the alien lists. 22545; They will not let you go on board under any circumstances without special permission ?—Then the next thing I have got down is with regard to stowaways. 22546. Complaints were made to me which I sent on to the Board of Trade?—Yes. 22547. What happened about that?—There was a specific complaint from a fireman; but that, I am in- formed, broke down on investigation. 22548. My informant said that it very often occurred that these people, being foreign sailors on board ships, put these people on board a ship and brought them over here?—There are a certain number of stowaways in vessels coming to' the United Kingdom, and there are a certain number of stowaways in vessels leaving the United Kingdom. Obviously the number that go out we cannot record, because they are stowed away, and they are not known when they start, so we know more about those who come than those who go; but I am informed from such inquiries that I can make, from people who know the ports, that, many more go out in their opinion than come in, SO' that would again affect the balance. 22549. You may get the undesirable immigrant in the stowaway, and the desirable immigrant going out as a stowaway, but what penalties are there on the captains of ships bringing stowaways—must they take them back? There is a £50 penalty, is there not?—There is a penalty on the man who stows himself away. The shipping company has a remedy against the stowaway, but there is nothing, I think, to punish the captain for bringing the stowaway. The section of the Merchant Shipping Act which deals with it is, I think, Section 237. 22550. Is not there a penalty for the non-reporting of stowaways?—No, I do not think so. 22551. That was the allegation, that it suits them to bring them and say they are stowaways and put them on shore here?—It, is a breach of discipline, and the stow- away is punishable under the Merchant, Shipping Act. It is not considered an offence against the public, but. it is simply a matter between those two. I may say that a con- siderable number of stowaways are enumerated in the alien lists, and we get them in that way. If you want to know anything more about the stowaways you will get it better from Captain Chalmers. Then with regard to cattle men. Cattle men are people who come over in the boats bringing cattle. They are not on the pas- senger lists, but they are on the articles. They receive passes to return; some return and some do not return, and there is a considerable balance inwards of cattle men. > 22552. (Chairman.) Are those principally from Argen- tina ?—They are beginning to come from Argentina now that we have opened the ports to Argentine cattle, but they are chiefly at present, or hitherto have been, from the United States and Canada. I have statistics of those arriving inwards and outwards from Liverpool for a year. In 1902 there arrived in Liverpool by sea 8,120 cattlemen, of whom 2,590 were British and 5,530 foreigners. During the same year there sailed from Liverpool 4,699 cattlemen, of whom 1,512 were British and 3,187 were foreigners, leaving a balance inwards altogether of 3,421, including 1,078 British and 2,343 foreigners. 22553. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You cannot tell that those going out arei the isame as those that comie in ?—I believe that those who go out (are the same as those who came in. 22554. (Chairman.) The result is that 2,343 foreigners remain ?—They do not go out from Liverpool by sea, but we can trace that a very considerable number go home by the Continent. Of course, we lose sight of some of them, but, for example, over 400 were assisted by the Austro-Hungarian Consul in Liverpool to proceed to their homes; 150 applied to the Austro-Hungarian Consul-General in London to assist them to re- turn to their homes. I communicated with the people at Hull and Grimsby, those being the most obvious ports by which they could returnMINUTES OF EVIDENCE* 827 to their homes, to ask what they could tell me, and I have got some communications saying they can- not give me numbers, but it is within their knowledge that a stream of cattlemen with tickets from Liverpool had passed out to Hamburg from Grimsby and Hull. I only mean to say you must not suppose that 2,000, or anything like that number of cattle men remain here. 22565. (Major Evans-Gordon.) But there is no real evidence as to how many do remain, except those deduc- tions you can make with certainty F—No, I do not see how there can be. 22556. Is it not the case that those are people generally of very low class and bad character?—The descriptions of them differ. I must say they are given a pretty bad character in Liverpool. The Grimsby port master does not give such a bad character. 22557. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) ■ We had a letter from the Liverpool Head Constable about it ?—The Liverpool evi- dence that I saw was rather that they were a very low class of people indeed, and I am not able to give any first hand evidence. The port, master at Grimsby does not, share that view. He thinks them superior to the bulk of transmigrants through Grimsby the other way. 22558. {Major Evans-Gordon.) The condition at Ham- burg is that the authorities there, I was informed, always regard them as' the very worst people they have to deal with, and the conditions on board those ships are so desperate that nobody except in a most fearful state, would dream of taking service on board the ships. The mere fact of having to attend the cattle and the conditions under which they are brought over are described as most horrible, and one deduces from that that only the most destitute loafer would come over , in that way ?—That, is a. matter of opinion that I cannot go into, because I have no data. 22559. You can suggest no means of dealing with those people ?—They already have a pass back, if they choose to use it. < (Chairman.) If they are here, they are here. Do we find them in the workhouses in Liverpool or are they loafing about the streets? 22560. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That is the complaint of Liverpool ?—You have evidence about Liverpool. 22561. (Sir Kenelm Digby-) We made inquiry from the Head Constable at Liverpool, and there is a letter from him?—They do not seem to get into the workhouses at Liverpool, because I have a record here of all the cattle men (unless they describe themselves as some- thing else) who were relieved in the workhouses in 1902. There are 11, and only one of them was a foreigner. I was surprised at that; I do not understand it, but there it is. 22562. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Are those cattle men included in any way in your inward statistics ?—No. 22565. They are an extra item?—Yes. I understand that a certain number of poor students use this as a way of getting to Europe. 22564. (Mr. Vallance.) Where do those boats which land at Grimsby sail from ?—Those are not cattle boats that land at Grimsby. Those are. people that land at Liverpool and then come across to Grimsby, as that is the shortest route. They have used the cattle boat as a means of helping themselves one stage on the journey home. 22565. Are you satisfied that these men invariably, do receive a pass to return ?—I do not see any reason to doubt it. ' 22566. It has been suggested that the worst charac- ters are sometimes engaged at a nominal wage of Is., and they are simply dumped down on English ground? —I believe it has been SO' stated. 22567. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It was not at all sup- ported by the letter from the Head Constable of Liver- pool p—These people do not want a pass back. Their object is to get on, I understand, and whether if the man says, " I do not want a pass—I will not have a pass," they make him take one, I do not know, but any- body who wants a pass may have one, I understand. Then I have the corresponding figures for cattle men for the first three months of 1903, if anybody wants them. 22568. (Chairman.) Now, will you go to your next subject?—Then I come to the recent foreign and Colonial legislation. 22560. Have you any information from America since March, 1903?—No, we have no information as to the 6144. working of the Act. I have the Act here, and I have Mr. H. LI. taken out a few of the most important changes. Smiilu 22570. Perhaps you will hand in later your analysis of ^ Mpy 1903 the principal changes in the new Act. The general '",y tendency is greater stringency, is it not?—Yes, there are certain changes. First, the head tax is raised from one to two dollars. It is levied, on passengers coming overland as well asi by sea, with the exemption of citizens of Canada, Mexico, and Cuba. It includes saloon passengers. The class of persons prohibited from enter- ing is increased by certain new classes—epileptics', for example, people who have been insane within five years previously, persons who have hlad two or more attacks of insanity at any time previously, professional beggars and anarchists, prostitutes, persons bringing prostitutes, and persons who have been within a year deported as being ineligible under the contract labour law. Then this is an important thing—a special fine of 100 dollars is imposed on any person who introduces an alien afflicted with a disease which renders him ineligible. Not only do they make them take him back, but if it is a disease which might have been detected by a com- petent medical authority before he started, there is a fine of 100 dollars. That is> quite a new thing. 22571. That is the shipping company?—Yes. Then the master and the surgeon's declarations have now to be made before the immigrant officer at the port of arrival instead off before the Consul at the port of de- parture. That leads me to say that Sir Howard Vincent is not quite right in saying that the Americans use their Consuls to sift the people. That is not so as a matter of fact. I think he must have been referring to a Bill which never became law, namely, the Bill of 1895, which I have here. Then the period during which people can be deported is increased from one year to two years. Then this is interesting: " That the Commis- sioner-General of Immigration has to make under this law periodical inquiries of gaols, charitable institutions, etc., in order to discover any members of the prohibited class who shall be subject to deportation." 22572. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is new?—Yes. 22575. (Chairman.) Could the representative of the Immigration Department of America go into the gaols and say, "1 see you are a German, and either by out- side examination or information find out he is a criminal, and then deport him " ?—I do not think that the Act prescribes what kind of inquiry it shall be. 22574. But he might by inquiry find out he is a criminal, and then say he must go?—Yes. 22575. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) A criminal being a con- victed person. There is nothing nearer than that?— It is his duty to detail officers of the immigration service to secure information as to the number of aliens detained in the State reformatories and charitable in- stitutions of the several States, and to inform the officers of such institutions of the provisions of the law in rela- tion to the department. He has no other power than to inquire and get information, but it is with a view of making effective the section relating to deportation. Then there is a section preventing the entrance or entry of anarchists, but that is not an alien section at all. It applies to a citizen as well as to an alien. ? 22576. Is there any definition of an anarchist ?—Yes, an anarchist is " a person who disbelieves in or who is opposed to all organised Governments, or who is a member of or affiliated with any organisation entertain- ing and teaching such disbelief in or opposition of all organised Governments, or who advocates or teaches the duty, necessity, or propriety of the unlawful assault- ing or killing of any officer or officers, either of specific individuals or of officers generally of the United States, or of any other organised Government, because of his or their official character." You understand this sec- tion does not refer merely to aliens. 22577. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then there is the Australian law ?—Yes. 22578. Is there anything new in that ?—The Austra- lian law is not very new in principle. It is very much. like the laws in Natal and various other places which are already m force. It is not an alien law ; it is a law based on domicile and not nationality. It is a restriction to the entrance of domiciled persons who belong to certain classes. In the first place a man must be able to write by dictation a passage from a European language. He must not be likely to become a charge on the public or any public or charitable institution. Then there are the ordinary categories of undesirables— idiot or'insane, and the person suffering from disease. 5 M 2828 iiOYAL COMMISSION UN ALIEN IMMIGRATION ; Mr. H> LI, Smith. v 22579. On the American model ?—Yes, it is very much on the American model. 14 May 1903. 22580. (Chairman.) Are there any more figures for . ---you to refer to?—No, I do not think there are any more figure®. 22581. We recognise the responsible position you occupy in the Board of Trade. What is your feeling about our asking a question or two about remedies. Would you wish, as an officer of the Board of Trade, to give an opinion on what the remedy should be or not? —I do not think I should like to give any opinion about policy, but assuming a particular policy I should not mind answering any question I was capable of answering as regards particular administrative methods. 22582. (Chairman.) I have very great difficulty sitting here in assuming any policy, but I think this is quite safely within the proper line you are drawing if I ask you, assuming there was a policy thought advisable (it is purely hypothetical) of excluding undesirable aliens, could you suggest any administrative method by which it could be carried out ? Do not answer that unless you like?—I ihitik perhaps it is rather broader than I should lfke to answer. 22583. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) -One might perhaps put it in this way: from your experience of what you have seen in America, what do you say as to the difficulty of administering such a law ay the Liverpool companies. As a matter of fact, . 4 ^ if. a/^erpQol shipping company states: that a passen- yger h^s;; been returned to the Continent it can be taken absolutely for granted that such passenger has been . so returned.—Principal, Board of Trade, Liverpool." 22628. What passengers are these ?—Those are the persons taken from this country to America and there . x rej,e.c^e^,,and brought back to .the United Kingdom. and,j.shown by the shipping companies' returns to , u$, whjchl put in, returned by them to the Continent. 22629. Four hundred and seven, I think, was the nruniber ?-^So>me number of that kind. < 22630.s They are the number returned from America and forwarded back by us?-—Yes. Mr. Norman sug- gested a doubt as to whether they were really returned. 22631. {Major Evans-Gordon.) What about ones re- jected at Liverpool? Are they treated in the same way ?—The 36 rejected by the shipping companies are treated in the same way. 22632. {[Chairman.) The shipping companies in their own interest decline to* hear the burden. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They have come up to the American standard here. 22633. (Chairman.) Those 36, according to your view, ar© treated in the same way?—Yes, those are covered by this telegram. In the next place, with regard to the powers of the Board of Trade medical offi- cer at Liverpool to detain emigrants and refuse to allow them to proceed to America, I am afraid that per- haps unconsciously a little misled the Commission about that. I spoke as though that medical examina- tion at' Liverpool, conducted by the Board of Trade officer, had some reference to the American law—that •is to say, sifted out persons who would otherwise be . rejected' in America. I should not have given that im- pression, because that is not so at al'l. It is part of the ordinaiy procedure under the Merchant Shipping Act to medically inspect passengers, mainly with a view to see that they will not infect other passengers. It has to do with the state of the ship, and nothing to do with the.question whether they will be admitted. The sec- tion under which it is done is Section 306 of the Mer- chant Shipping Act, 1894, which I have with me in case you want to go into that subject. - 22634. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Is that done every- where?—It is done with regard to any ships carrying ■ emigrants from the United Kingdom to places out of Europe. Wliat I have now said incidentally answers the question that was addressed to me last time as to whether those*162 people who were thus rejected were sent back to the Continent. I have no doubt they were not. There would be no reason why they should be. It has no reference to the American! Immigration Law at all. 22635. It has the same effect—they are kept back by our own people?—They are detained under that section of the Merchant Shipping Act. 22636. Is there any information as to on what ground they are detained ? What is the sort of thing they detain theon for?-—I have no doubt Captain Chalmers can tell you all that. Then the next point is with regard to a question that Lord James asked as to the imports and exports of boots, and shoeis 'before the influx of aliens in 1882. In 1882 our importation was 110,000 dozen pairs, and our exports in that year were 634,000 dozen pairs. In 1902 our imports were 244,000 dozen pairs, showing an increase of about 134,000 dozen , pairs imported. Our exports were 789,000 dozen pairs, showing an increase of 155,000 dozen pairs in the ex- ports* I mentionsd to the Commission that in com- paring these figures you must take into account the growth of exports from the United States, which is our chief competitor abroad. I think, therefore, the Commission may like the corresponding figures for the United States exports. The exports of boots and shoes (there is very little import, because the trade is highly protected) from the United States in 1882 was 32,000 dozen pairs—very little. In 1902 it was 330,000 dozen pairs. 22637. About 10 times as much ?-—About 10 times as much, and not very far off half as much as we ex- ported. 22638. {Major Evans-Gordon.) As far as our figures for 1882 and 1902 are concerned, the relative rise in imports and exports is about the same roughly, is it not?—Yes, the absolute rise is just half as much in the imports as in the exports. The next point is, I think, with regard to a question of Lord James with regard to the aliens relieved in Liverpool. There were a 'considerable number whose nationality was unspeci- fied, and I said I would make further inquiries about those. The result is this: With regard to the 167 emigrants who you will remember a.r'e included, although the cost of their relief is repaid by the ship- ping companies, there is no information as to the nationality. It was not noted. Of the remaining 146 26 were Americans, 23 were Swedes, seven were Portu- guese, six Norwegians, six Danes, two Belgians, two Arabs, two Greeks, two Mexicans, and not classified 70, many of the latter being foreign sailors. Ajiother question was asked me as to what were the circum- stances of the rise of wages of a body of about 1,500 Jewish bootmakers in London in 1901. I was asked if I could give any further particulars with regard to that matter. I was not aible to at the time, but I have looked into it, and I have all the papers with regard to the matter here. It was a rise which followed a strike at a big factory in East London, and was settled by negotiation between the secretary osf the employers' union and the men's union. I have here the details of it. It was not a general rise; it was a rise in piece rates prevalent in that factory. The next thing is, I want to remedy a technical defect. I believe I never handed in, after all, the papers showing the alien im- migration for the first four months of 1903. The only note I have on them is where the figures seem to be abnormal. 22639. (Chairman.) The first four months there were 9,278 arriving in London?—.The first four months up to the end of April, 1903. 22640. Then take the whole of the ports for the first four months?—The number who are not described in these lists as en route is 23,716, as against 20,948. It is an increase of not quite 3,000 over the four months. It includes 4,624 sailors ini 1906 and 5,089 in 1902. 22641. (Mr. Vallance.) Would there be a propor- tionate number of sailors in the case of "the arrivals in London?—No, I should think not. 22642. (Chairman.) You do not show here the nation- ality ?—I show the nationality on the next page. The nationalities do not add to quite the same total as the others, because sailors are excluded here, and we do not take the nationalities. 22643. There is an increase of Russians and Poles— 2,000 in the four months?—Yes. 22644. That would be 6,000 for the year if continued 1 —Yes. Then there is one small point that slipped through last time, that I meant to have given to the Commission, and which you may be interested in—that is as to the flag of the vessels who bring these immi- grants and as to the proportion in which they are foreign or British vessels. We have taiken them out for a single month just as a test—that is, those who are brought to London in iSeptemfber, 1902, which was the month we took. That month was taken as being a fairly typical month, and we found that of 3,193 aliens who arrived in London in that month 8 per cent, were brought by British ships, 28 per cent, by German ships, 21 per cent, by Dutch ships, 28 per cent, by Danish ships, 7 per cent, by Swedish, and 3 per cent, by Belgian. The remaining 134 were brought in small numbers by ships whose nationality has not been tabulated. 22645. How does Bremen come in,?—Those would probably be German ships. 22646. This is the total numiber of aliens carried, and not the number of vessels?—Yes, number of aliens carried; but I could easily get the number of vessels. 22647. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The Libau ships fly the Danish flag ?—Yes. These figures refer to the flag of the vessel. It may be the Commission would like that taken out for a longer period, but I have taiken this out as a sample.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 831 22648. (Sfa Kenelm Digby\) That makes them all but 8 per cent, carried by foreign ships?—Yes. 22649. (Chairman.) Saive you any reason to believe but that that month of September was a fair test month ?—No, we took it as the nearest test month that we could get. Then the only other point in which I want to supplement what I said on Thursday is that the Commission are aware we only collect alien figures at 29 selected ports; but I had the figures as shown in the ships' reports- taken out for 23 more po^ts to see if we were letting any considerable number slip through. But at those 23 ports next in importance there were only 88 altogether in the year. That seems to show we have got them all. 22650. You are not touching the real passengers and travellers, as compared to the immigrants. You do not take Folkestone and Dover?—We take deck passengers at Folkestone and Dover, and people who, after land- ing, proceed third class by rail. 22651. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) How do you ascertain about their proceeding third class?—I suppose they would all have tickets. 22652. (Chairman.) I know a great many wealthy persons who always travel third class. Are they treated as immigrants if they are foreigners ?■—I expect those people pay on the vessel so as to go first class. 22653. Is every person who goes third class treated as an immigrant?—I cannot for the moment, without referring to the papers, say if he goes first class on the vessel and is going third class afterwards, whether he would be' so treated. 22654. Take the case of a gentleman's servant—a foreigner—would he be treated as an alien, immigrant ? —He would if he were a deck passenger. 22655. Buit supposing he came in the forward part of the vessel coming to Dover ?—I should think he probably would,. 22656. But, of course, he is not an alien immigrant? —No. ; We could find out all these things quite easily for you. Then I come to Section 3 of my evi- dence. The point I wanted to draw the attention of the Commission to under Section 3 was thisi: I have glanced through a great amount of the evidence1 that has been before you ; it seemed to me that on a great many of the economical points the disagreement between witnesses was very largely a disagreement as to the use of words, and not as to facts, and that the ambiguity of lan- guage, especially about some of these economic phrases, had given rise to a very serious misunderstanding. I do not know that it is my business to put it right, but 1 would call attention to the necessity in these matters whatever definition is adopted of adhering, to it. Take, for example, such a word as " displacement"—whether it means displacement in a locality or displacement in a trade. Some of the witnesses have used the word in this sense. They talk about A displacing B, if A n!ow lives in the place where B formerly lived. It is argued he is displaced. Other witnesses have taken the defini- tion that a man displaces another if he lives where B used to live, and where, but for his arrival, B would still be living. That is a more logical definition, but, of course, it is a very much harder thing to prove- or dis- prove, because it will turn m'ainly on what would, have happened under another state of things. There is yet a third that I see symptoms of in some of the evidence, namely/ that A is said to displace B if he lives in a place where B would like to live, although, as a matter of fact, he never did live there. I do not think it much niatters which definition is taken. But the arguments as - to whether the aliens have or have not displaced British workmen in particular places have turned very largely, at all events, on the difference in the use of the terms'. With regard to the reduction of wages, it is still more so. I said'aJ little about th'at last time. But the phrase, " a change of wages," is used in discussion in two different and very often contrary senses. The sense inrwhich we at the Board of Trade use the phrase "change of wages" for all our statistical calculations is a change in the rate of pay for a given amount of - work of a given quality. We compare like with like, and we say wages have gone up or down according to that move- ment. But there is another sense in which the word is sometimes used, which is proper for some kinds of discussions; that is, a change in the average income of , the whole body of the workmen following a trade. The two things are not only not the same, but they very often change in opposite directions: It is perfectly possible for the rates of pay for each and all of the different Mr. H. LL classes of labour to go up, and yet the average rate to Smith. go down, because of the changes in the proportion of n the low skilled and the high skilled workmen in that - ^ 1903. trade. This usually happens in trades which have been revolutionised by machinery, where the introduction of machinery, or the sub-division of labour, or new pro- cesses enables the product to be turned out by a new industrial method. It may be that each class of labour of the same kind will get more money, and yet, if you take a census of all the earnings, there would be a reduction, and that divergence of meaning runs through a large part of the evidence- with regard to wages. 22657. The very best example you can give is with re- gard to mining. They get a higher rate per ton, but, instead of working 5^ days a week, they work 5, and their total income becomes less?—Yes, that is a change in the earnings. A very famous case that appeals to everybody is the changei brought about in the textile trade a century ago by the power loom. It has en- tirely altered things. It is important to emphasise this, because all the trades that have been discussed before the Commission are trades which in recent years have been in a state' of economical1 revolution, owing to the introduction of new processes, more sub-division, more machinery, and the factory system. Consequently, these kinds of changes have been going on alii the while. That makes the evidence, of course, very diffi- cult to dissect sometimes. I shall say a little more about that matter presently, but even with regard to the com- parison of piece rates, which are sometimes quoted in order to show the advance or decline of wages, I am bound to say that such comparisons are of no value, unr less they can be checked by experts, who can say that the work to be done isi exactly the same in the two periods ; that no more or no less assistance is'given by the machine, and that there is no alteration in the class of material carrying with it greater or' less difficulty, or that the limits of the process—where it begins and where it ends—have not been altered. I have innumerable cases that have come before my notice of that kind of change, which vitiates a comparison of piece rates. Then, if I may take such a word as " sweating," there are endless meanings that are attached by different people to- that word. To the public, I think it means in a vague way the evils of low wages and long hours and insanitary- conditions. To the old-fashioned English tailor it means nothing more or less than sub-division of labour. That is what he calls the making of garments under the sweating system. 2S658. Do you think some of the witnesses who have ' .been called here use the word "sweating;" as mean- ing the sub-division of labour?—Yes, I think tailors use it in that sense. When they say a garment is m'ade under the sweating system, they mean it is made by sub-divided labour, and not on the principle of one man one garment. (Major Evans-Gordon.) I do not think we have any- thing to show that. (Chairman.) You may be right; they may have had it in their minds when they used the words, and we did not know it. .. . (Major < Evans-Gordon•) Sub-division under certain conditions is another thing* (Chairman.) The conditions of bad pay for long hours , of work. ■ ' - 22659. (Mr. Zyttelton.) You have inferred this from.: the evidence you have read ?—Yes, I have only had time to glance at it. I have had some experience of the same kind, and 1 wanted, if I might, to put the Commission on their guard. To the boot and shoe maker " sweat- : ing" usually means a pretty definite thing; at least, it used to, and I think it does now. It means the giving out of certain processes, like lasting and finishing, at a ; certain price to a contractor or sweater, as he is called, to be performed by a team of operatives employed by him working mainly without machinery, instead of it , being done throughout at the old piece ratey which was the single piece rate for lasting, or for finishing. In some other trades, it simply means home work ; that is to say, work done outside the factory or . workshop. In general, it means to a workman a par- ticular form, of organising labour, to which, for one reason or another, he objects. In other words, I am afraid it is a word that has no definite scientific me^an-/ ; ing. . . , , ' // • ' >: • 22660, (Major, Evans-Gordon.) I think, .mt}i';r©gard>; to home wort, and all these things, what you are now 1832 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. H. LI, saying is rather going in a circle. The whole thing, as, Smith. I understand it, in the opinion of the witnesses, and 18-MaylL903 cerMnty my-opinion, with regard to sweating, is the - " conditions with regard to home work, and so on?—• I think that that is the view that is usually taken. 22661. There may be excellent conditions in home work, and sweating conditions in home work—long hours and bad wages and unwholesome conditions?— I think there is no doubt the general public really ait- tach that word in a general way to bad conditions, but workmen in particular trades often use it to connote special modes of organising labour. Then, with regard to the introduction of new trades, I will only say the case isN much the same with regard to dis- placement. It isi sometimes said that certain people have introduced a new trade, merely meaning that they are working at trades at which the native workmen have not previously worked. But that, again, I think, is too wide. I think it ought to mean the working at trades or processes which, if the influx had not taken place, would not have been worked >at, which is quite another thing in the case of a continuously developing trade. Then the last of the vague phrases that I want to call attention to is the use of the words " public charge." Sometimes it means a charge on the rates ; sometimes it means a charge' on public charity as well; sometimes it is even used as meaning a charge on any- body except the man's own resources. 22662. (iChairman.) I think we use the word as mean- ing a public charge—a charge on the rates—eleemosyn- ary?—That is a thing that must be strictly defined, be- cause it is something that might appear in an Act of Parliament. It has sometimes been used to include the share which the alien takes in the general expen- diture of the public, even on schools, street lighting, and so on. 22663. I am sure the draughtsman of any Bill that is brought forward will consider your views?—Then, with regard to the competition of alien labour, again there rare two kinds of competition which run into each other, but, I think, prodta.ee rather different results, and ought to be kept distinct in our minds. There is the direct competition between A. and B., where A. does the same work or produces the same product as B. in competition with him. But there is another kind of competition where A. is not producing the same article as B., but producing something which he induces the public to take in substitution for it. Now, these two< sets of people are both competing with each other, and the connecting link in the case we are considering would perhaps be machine-made clothing which is made to imitate the old hand-made clothing, so that the public hardly knows the difference between them. But these two forms of competition, direct and indirect, work out somewhat 'differently in their effect on wages. There is no doubt that the direct com- petition in which the two bodies of workmen come into direct rivalry at the same work is that which is apt to produce the keenest feeling between them and the most obvious direct effects on wages and employ- ment. But the competition which acts through the substitution of a new article acts more gradually and less obviously, and sometimes the two bodies of work- people never come into direct contact at all, and they are hardly aware of each other's existence. It has to act through a change in the taste of the consumer. If this process of substitution is not very rapid, but spread over a generation, possibly there may be no effect on wages or employment to the old-fashioned producer himself, but merely a gradual shrinkage or an absence of expansion in his trade, which would be shown by the diminution of the number of people who enter it. 22664. Take a coat formerly made in one hand. The same coat and the same material is now made by sub- division. Would they come in direct or indirect com- petition?—That is a case in which I said there was a connecting link between the two. It is made by a different process. I think that the chief effect that has been produced to the old-fashioned tailor has been the shrinkage in the number of people entering, the number of apprentices, and so on. You have had evidence of that. But practically the economic effects of the indirect competition I have mentioned are not very dissimilar to the competition between home-made and imported goods: that is to say, if we have free trade, the indirect competition produces not very different results. There are some differences which it is too theoretical to go into, but I think you may take it that in the case of the aliens who practically form a foreign enclave in East;- London, the competition of their products within the United Kingdom and the competition of their pro ducts if they were imported from outside the United Kingdom, is very much the same to the English pro- ducer. It is a case virtually of international trade. If the English tailor had to meet the competition of" the slop clothing: or boots imported from the same* people abroad (I am speaking purely of economic- competition and not of the overcrowding results, and' so on), I doubt if the effect on him would be materially different. I do not think it is true to say that the competition of foreign imported goods, generally speak- ing, is the same as the competition of producers within the United Kingdom 3 but in this case it is much the same. 22665. It is quite the same if you put one article coming in against an article produced here, but if you paid a man positively 5s. a week less than the Britisher- and gave the manufacturer the power of comparing the same men working at the same rates, is not that rather more detrimental than the competition of markets?—I think it is different because the two workmen aire working side by side, one taking a lower rate, so that there is direct competition. I am speaking of the in- direct competition rather. In the boot and shoe trade there has been certainly a certain amount of direct:- competition. I do not see the signs of it in the whole- sale clothing trade so much. There has been to some extent the same boot made at one and the same time, or, at any rate, lasted and finished at one and the same- time by an English workman under the piece work statement at a certain rate and by the alien labourer at a lower rate—the most direct form—and the result is you probably find that the: feeling as between the alien labourer and the native labourer in the boot and shoe trade is a bitterer feeling than it is in the whole- sale clothing trade. That was my experience. 22666. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There is very little indi- cation of it in the wholesale clothing trade ?—There is- hardly any direct competition there at all—not in my sense of the word " direct." But all this is giving way to the great machine industry—that is absorbing both. The old piece rates are practically becoming obsolete through the new machinery. 22667. (Chairman.) The new machine question is raising itself up in Leicester and Northampton. There- is a very small amount of alien competition there?— The aliens do not come into the factory very much. 22668. (Major JUvans-'Gorcfon.) We have had evidence- rather to show that in some classes of work the alien is competing with the machine ?—You have had some very interesting evidence, and I should like to say a word about that if I may. It was to me the most interesting of all the boot and shoe evidence. I think, perhaps, the boot and shoe trade is a more interesting one to compare than the wholesale clothing. The most direct competition is in the boot and shoe trade. Generally speaking (I speak. in very general terms, because I am not an expert in the; trade), you may detect three stages of development in the last, say, quarter of a century. There was the old- fashioned boot and shoe maker, either making through- out or making with a very smallf amount of sub-division. Then we get the big wholesale boot and shoe trade, in> which the boot and shoe operatives work mainly at the piece rate statement, the process of manufacture being divided into a series of operations, such as lasting and finishing—well-known sub-divisions. These piecework processes were embodied in elaborate statements that were agreed upon. Then next came the introduction of machinery for finishing and1 lasting, in which the piece work statements practically became obsolete, and there are very much more minute sub-divisions of processes, and the boot and shoe opera- tives minding the machines are mostly paid time rates,, not piece rates at all. That, of course, I need hardly say is, talking the industry as a whole, a mode of organi- sation which is winning, that is, which is springing up and replacing all the others. But>in places like London, where the factory system finds a difficulty in making headway, owing to the great amount of rent for room and other causes, and where there is this alien labour, there has been what I may call an alternative form of development, in which, in a workshop without the aid of this machinery for lasting and finishing, and by means of long hours and minute sub-divisions of labour, the alien worker has striven to make head against the enormotis odds of the minute sub-division of labour aided! by machinery m the factory.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 833 22669. {Chairman.) Is this the skilled or the nn- tskilled alien workman?—He would probably be a as-killed man, but he would graduate his labour so as ■to have very unskilled labour at the bottom. 22670. It is not only one man you are speaking of, but the system?—Yos, the one man would take the 'work and sub-divide it. That is what is generally known, of course, as the sweating system in the boot and shoe trade. Essentially it is an attempt to adapt the pro- duction on a small scale in the workshop, so as to enable it to compete with the production on a large scale in the factory. Economically, that is its posi- tion. Where the factory system has fully taken root it has no chance, except, possibly, in the case of such rotten material as will not admit of being worked by machine. There are such materials at the bottom that you cannot use a machine on them at all. But in London this system, for special reasons, still maintains -an unequal contest. Ascertain whether London is competing with particular provincial districts or not. A good many questions were asked about it of different witnesses, but from what I have .already said as to> the direct and1 indirect competition, I think it would be clear that it is not necessary to show that the goods produced are identical in order to show there is competition. There may be competition -through substitution. It may interest the Commission ~to know exactly how the matter stands at present, so far as I have been able to ascertain it from a trade ex- pert. _ I am told the main competition of high-class ■work is with Northampton, to* which, in fact, some work has gone; and, as to middling class work, with Leicester. In the lower class work, for instance, girls' boots, and what are known as sew-rounds, that is a kind of slipper, with Norwich. As to the lowest class of work, so far as there is any competition at all, it is with the Leicestershire villages. 22671. (Major Evans-Gordon.) That does not refer to men's boots, does it, because there are very few of them, '■ comparatively, made in the East End of London?-—Of ^course, the sew-rounds are slippers. 22672. But men's outdoor boots. There are not many of them made in London ?—No, I expect they are women's boots. The very cheapest goods that are made in London by alien labour, the sew-rounds, do not ap- pear, so far as I can ascertain, to compete directly (I •am using the word "directly" in the sense in which I have used it before) with anything ; that is to say, they are below the standard of anything else that is made, . and the makers of them in the workshops are protected to some extent in the competition of machinery by the fact that the material1 is too bad to permit of the use of machinery. That is as I am informed. It is not libellous to say it is worthless rubbish. 22673. (Mr. Vallance.) To some extent, it would be ; a substantial competition?—Yes; but so far as they compete with the British labour at all, it would be with "Slie Leicestershire villages. There is a very interesting case of a particular kind of shoe, which is called a last- r;ing shoe, which is made of a certain stuff or cashmere called lasting. Those things used to be imported from abroad; the next thing was that the uppers were imported and made up here by alien labour, and the last stage is that they are made here throughout by alien labour, and from stuff made in England to some extent. I thought it would be worth while trying to verify that through the Customs, and I have a memo- . randum from them verifying it. 22674. (Chairman.) What is the result?—The result is this, that there is a class of stuff which used, before alien labour came here, to be made abroad and im- ported ; it is no longer imported, but is made here by them. 22675. It is a very inferior article ?—A very inferior : • article, I believe. 22676. (Major Evans-Gordon.) They are not very much made here ?—No. 22677. Before you leave that question, broadly speak- ing, the competition between aliens and machine would mean competition between worse conditions in work- shops and better conditions in a factory?—I think so. I think you may take that undoubtedly. You raised «a question of a very interesting comparison between rates. It was a particular bootj given in evidence, a common boot called No. 18, and the figures were given under that old piece-work .Statement; that is, the «-old statement before the introduction of machinery; K144, 3s. 9d. a dozen was paid for them. That is correct. Mr. H. LI. Then the Jewish sweater takes that boot—I am. talking Smith. of the price for the lasting process only—at 2s. 3d. A - very interesting statement was made by a gentleman 18 May 1903* who gave evidence here, that the lasting machine known as the Boston Laster could not do it at less than 2s.; 9d., so that the sweater apparently was under-cutting the machine-, and that surprised me very much, because it seemed a curious thing that it should be possible. Of course, one cannot say that it is not possible, but you will notice that it all depends on an assumed output from a machine, and I have tested that by a number of returns from the provinces. Instead of an output of 860 pairs, which was the output assumed in order to get this calculation, my returns show that the output varies from 1,000 to 1,100' pairs, which inverts the figures at once. The machine, as a matter of fact, could be made to work at that rate. I do not say that it is worked at that rate in London ; my point is that competition is not necessarily local, but that thei machine is turning out these things at less than 2s. a dozen, as against 2s. 3d. 22678. The machine you refer to would be worked by English workmen ?—Yes, I believe in both cases they were English workmen quoted. The rate of wages in London of English workmen is higher than in the pro- vinces, and therefore we get a higher labour cost as well as the lower output assumed. 22679. (Sir Kenelm Dicjby.) Before you leave this point, does this sub-division of labour, as. far as you know, give additional labour ? Are there processes in that system which are done mainly by British and not by foreign workmen ?—Do you mean in the Jewish work- shops P 22680. I mean generally. Take a boot that is made by this process of sub-division of labour. Are there classes of that labour which are done by British workmen, and does the introduction of this system practically add to the employment of British workmen in that way?—I am afraid I could not give you a simple answer to that. It would depend, I think, on the locality, and on the kind of sub-division. You may take it that, generally speaking, the great factory industry exists with machinery, and there is not much alien labour. 22681. (Chairman.) Has your attention been called to the movement that seems to be going on of getting rid of apprentices in the tailoring and boot and shoe trades. Has that come before you officially at all ?!—* We have heard of it. The diminution of apprenticeship is a very general tendency, I am afraid, in a great many other industries besides. 22682. Have you formed any view ais. to the effect of that diminution of apprentices, and what it is likely to lead to ?—-I think it inevitably happens that there is a break up of apprenticeship when you get a trade which is subject to this kind of change. The old- fashioned conditions of apprenticeship iand indentures of apprenticeship for a number of years were applicable to a state of things where a man had to learn all the processes. Where yoiu have minute sub-division, and one man for one process, the long period of learning is no longer applicable. 22683. We have had evidence here that these aliens come in as greeners. Now you have got with them .a great dead, of sub-division, and they train on, and learn the sub-divisions of labour and then become skilled. If you have an absence of the system of apprenticeship how are you to get these recruits into the trade unless in some form or other you do get a greener, that is, an unskilled person?—You get the unskilled person in the factory. 22684. Is not the use of the greener as an unskilled worker training up, the result of the sub-division, quite as much as the result of immigration! ^Certainly. The moment you sub-divide and graduate the process you begin with the greener at the /bottom. You may not call him a greener, but he is a learner. 22685. That really isi, that now by virtue of the sub- division process you are getting this unskilled learner in place of the apprentice under indentures ?—Yes; and you get those in a great many other trades where there are no alieam 22686. (Major "Evans-Gordon.) Have you not got sub- division in Leicester and Northampton, where there are no aliens?—Yes. 22687. (Chairman.) How are you going to get recruits into the trade, there being no apprentices, unless you 5NEOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : 38,]^ay 1903.; Mr* B. LI. do get a person who corresponds to the greener under the assets if we take the loss to creditors, that is, the amount of indebtedness after deducting the assets. In the last nine months of 1900 the loss was £1,808,000 wholly?—Yes. 22719. Of tlhis £293,700 was lost through aliens?— Alien immigrants. 22720. In the year 1901 the loss was £2,450,360, nearly 2^ millions, and the aliens produced a loss of a I little more than half a million?—£525,150 ?—That is so. 22721. In, the next year, 1902, the whole loss was - £1,790,828, the aliens producing £310,450 ?—That is so. 22722. In the first three months of 1903 th© total loss to creditors was £541,064, against £91,550 by aliens?—'Yes. 22723. Now I should like to take the nationalities of these people referred to in Table D. I am afraid there you have taken unsecured liabilities ?—Yes, I " have, but the loss to creditors is very near to the total amount of unsecured liabilities. On an average, out of every £1 of liability 19s. l'£d. is lost. 22724. I take it as being really and substantially the same. Now take Table D. What period of time does that refer to ?—That refers to the three years covered by the previous tables. 22725. In the whole three year® the lossi isi greater than £|,275,000 ?—The approximate loss to creditors, that is, merely by aliens. This table D applies only to aliens. 22726. To account for the loss, that has been due on the whole of that period, of £1,275,000, Which is now analysed ?—Yes. -22727. At the head of the list stands Americans 38. r There were 38 Americans with a loss of £393,000— nearly £400,000 ?—Yes. 22728. That is getting on for a third of the whole amount?—Yes. 22729. Of whom six belonged to the Jewish religion. What was the reason of that large amount for the Americans? Is it due to company promoting?—Com- pany promoting and financial and other kinds of specu- lators ; company promoters, and people who called themselves financiers, but who are really company pro- moters and speculators' generally. 22730. America has the honour of heading the list? —There are some very heavy failures among them. 22731. There are 38 in number?—That is so. 22732. Then the next you deal with are the Germans. There are 92 Germans, of whom 21 were Jews, and they had unsecured liabilities of £334,000. What « class of trade would they be engaged in?—They are mainly the smaller men in the East End of London, 6144. merchants of different kinds, and a number m the ,Mr. E. L. leather trade ; hat and cap manufacturers and mantle Hough. manufacturers—in fact, they are the smaller East End-- and City traders. They are not mainly financiers,' 18 May' T903 and, therefore, the liabilities are not anything like in proportion to the American failures. 22733. Then the third are the Russians. They were 74 in number, and they are the third highest in number, with a loss of £233,000. Do« those 74 Russians include Poles, or not?'—-They include the Poles. 22734. What trades do' they represent?—Very much the same as the Germans, but they have perhaps a larger monopoly in the tobacco trade. 22735. Would they be the class of men who would come in here as very indigent poor persons ?—As a • rule they are without capital, or with a small capital. 22736. The Russian Pole®?—The Russian Poles, and a great number! of the Germans. Of course there must ' be exceptions in a great number of the Russians proper. 22737. But some of them, or a considerable number of them, would be very unskilled and uncapitalled persons ?—Certainly uncapitalled ; but a great number of them have certain qualifications. A great number of them, for instance, work at their own particular trade before actually becoming traders in this country, and so get together a trifling amount of capital, but sufficient to enable them to take business premises. 22738. Would they be the class of persons to whom, if you met them on board a steamer you would be able to say, " You have no money, and you have no trade, you are nothing but ignorant, unproductive persons," or would they be rather superior to that class?'—No, I should not say that. I think it would: be too sweeping to say, "You are unskilled, and unproductive persons.'* A great number of these men whom we see are men wht actually make their commencement in life by working at their trade. 22739. So that one of these would be able to say, " I am a man who has come here to carry on a trade " ?—• Yes. 22740. (Sir Kenebn Dtigby.) Most of them, I suppose, . would have been here an appreciable time ?'—>1 tried to get that information out, it was very difficult to do so ; but you miay take it that the great number of them work for a considerable number of years at their trade, and so get a certain amount before they commence as traders themselves. 22741. {Chairman.) Take these Russian Poles, the cliaiss we are principally enquiring into. In three years the loss sustained by the community by their bad trad- ing was £233,000 ?—-Yes. 22742. Then the Dutch come next in liabilities with £73,000 ; then the Italians come next with £68,000, and so on. The result is, you dealt with 289 persons, of whom 93 belonged to the Jewish faith, and there has been a loss in unsecured liabilities of upwards one and a quarter millions?—That is so. When we deal with that figure of 93, I should say it is un- doubtedly understated. There is no doubt in my mind there are more Jews in the 289 than 93, only we rely on the information given by the debtors them- selves, and I do not think we altogether get a true statement. 22743. Do they give sworn testimony?—Yes. 22744. (Mr. Lyttelton.) How do you know whether they are Jews? How does their religion become relevant in the bankruptcy?—It only becomes relevant infthis way, that I noticed some emphasis wasi laid by some previpus witnesses before this Commission as to the number of Jews who were amongst the persons spoken about, therefore I endeavoured to get out the number of Jews in my return, but as ai matter of fact, until we get them at the public examination, where, of course, Jews are sworn in a different way to others, we do not know unless they like to tell us. 22745. (Chairman.) Then we come to your Table E. That deals with the trades or occupations of the persons through whom this loss of £1,275,000 has been effected. First of all there are the company promoters, they have been good enough to deprive usi of £556,000?—> ' Yes, that is so. There are some very heavy figures amongst those. 22746. I think the next gentleman is the jobmaster, is he not?—-That was one particular swindle. He called ; himself a jobmaster, so I have called him a jobmaster, 5 N 2836^ ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Ifl.-~.2F. X. as a matter of fact, he was a man who solicited bough. subscriptions to a so-called company from the public ~jr- at a very high rate of interest, and the money was May 1903. improperly made use of, so the loss was incurred. 22747. Then you have boot and shoe manufacturers, dealers, and leather merchants, £37,000?—Yes. 22748. Then diamond merchants, £35,000?—'Yes. 22749. Then there are general merchants, £31,000, and other merchants, making up a total of £154,000? —Yes. 22750. Then there is a very interesting amount of trade in patent medicines, and they are responsible for £34,000?—Yes. I think those are Americans chiefly. 22751. Picture and fine art dealers, and photo- graphers, £46,000. These trades are very general. They da not seem to be confined to the alien immigrant in the sense we are dealing with?—No. 22752. (Mr. Vallance.) May I take it from your figures that it is a fundamental fact that whereas the proportion of foreign population is something like 3 per cent, in the metropolis, the proportion of persons against whom receiving orders have been made were 15 per cent. ?—About one-seventh, I think. 22753. (Chairman.) Is it important to confine it to those County Court districts, because those are the trading County Court districts. It would not be for the whole of the metropolis ?—Practically it is the whole of the metropolis; that is to say, the working part of the metropolis. For instance, it does not take in a place like Tottenham, where there is a large population. •212754. (Mr. Vallance.) Tottejnham is not in the metropolis ?—I was not aware of that. 22755. (Chairman.) These lists you have given us do not cover the whole of the metropolis, do they?—Prac- tically they do. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I suppose it is practically co~ terminous with the County of London. 22756. (Mr. Vallance.) The proportion of the number of persons .against whom receiving orders have been made is five times as great as the native ?—I do not know the native proportion, but it is 15 per cent, among these people. (Mr. Vallance.) In proportion to the population it would 'be about one-third. 22757. (Mr. Lyttelton.) If you take your whole list—• the Americans, Germans, and Russians—those failures chiefly are referable to company promotions?—The American failures certainly are. 22758. What would you say , as to Germans and Russians ?■—No, , certainly not. Germans and Russians are mainly merchants, manufacturers, and shop- keepers. 22759. I suppose as to practically all those, before they could have obtained credit to the amounts that are shown here, they must have been resident for some time ?—Yes, I presume so. 22760. It is hardly credible that a foreigner would get credit to a considera/ble amount from people of this nationality until he has been here a little time 2—It is hardly credible to me that they get the amount of credit at all. 22761. I suppose it is probable that they have been here some time?—Yes, some time. 22762. And got together some business?1—Yes, some small business. 22763. Taking the legislation which some people pro- pose, namely, the exclusion of those who are unde- sirable by reason of health and incapacity to follow their trade, and assuming such legislation in force, . would it exclude s|ome of these people?—It would Exclude some, but not a very large proportion. 22?64. Very few, would it not?—I have not con- sidered that, but I should say certainly not a very large proportion. 22765. Does not the same observation apply to almost *11 those defaulting traders? Assuming you spread the net so as to arrest in the ports all unhealthy people and paupers, would not practically all these people who have made a business of a kind for themselves still enter ?—I should think a very large proportion would still enter. 22766. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do these figures cover the whole of the East End, or only Whitechapel and Shor^rlitch ?—/The City of London and WhitechapeL 22767. Only Whiteichapel ?—It is the County Court district of Whitechapel. 22768. Does the County Court district of White- chapel cover the East End? (Mr. Vallance.) I think not. There is a County- Court at Bow. 22769. (Majar JEvans-Gordon.) Would it cover places- like Bethnal Green and Hackney?—It would cover Bethnal Green, but I am not sure about Hackney. It certainly covers Mare Street, Hackney, which is the leading street. 22770. Supposing there are other cases of bankruptcy, supposing it did not cover the whole of the district, where would they be dealt with?—I -should think in Bow County Court and Hackney County Court. 22771. That would cover the whole thing?—Yes. 22772. These returns with regard to foreigners do- not include the children of foreigners born here?— No, they do not. 22773. Would there be considerable additions for the bankruptcy of what you may call foreign origin in. that v/'ciiy ?—Very large indeed. They would add to the amount of insolvency very largely. 22774. You have no information as to the loss to creditors sustained in cases where deeds of arrange- ment, or deeds of composition have been resorted to? —'No. 22775. Are they a large number?—I cannot tell at. all. 22776. You have no statistics of those at all ?—There-* is a very large number of deeds of arrangement, too ; but what proportion of deeds of arrangement are entered into by aliens I cannot what you may call profes- sional bankruptcy out there?—No. 22789. I want to know whether this has come under' your notice, the process of getting a small credit, and then gradually increasing it, and again gradually in- creasing it, and then giving a large order, and going burst at the end of it?—I do not think that feature- exists here, so far as I have seen.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 837 22790. Gradually extending their credit?—They gradually extend their credit, and then something happens, and either they leave the country, or they come into the Bankruptcy Court, and they com© into the Bankruptcy Court with an almost entire absence of assets* 22791. You say that 54 had failed in this country on one or more previous occasions. Out of these failures that you have mentioned 289 are aliens ?—That is so. 22792* In three instances there are three or four previous failures?—I believe in one case there were as many as five previous failures in this country. 22793. You say in your statement, " In 55 of the 289 -oases no information is obtainable as to their previous capital" 1—That is so. 22794. And of the 178 of the remaining 234 cases the debtors had no capital at all?—Yes. 22795. And in 20 other cases the debtors had less than £50 ?—-There were 13, I think, who had under £25. 22796. That points to their coming over here, and just speculating without capital in these trades ?—It points to their coming here and commencing business with a very little. 22797. With an insufficient capital?—Absolutely. 22798. {Chairman >) I suppose this is all a question of - degree. I suppose you have British bankrupts who com- mence with insufficient capital, too?—Yes, but it is more marked in the case of the alien. The propor- tionate loss is larger in the case of the alien than in the case of the British. 22799. (Major Evans-Gordon.) You say there are only one or two instances of aliens having kept proper books -of account ?—Yes. I have control of about one-third of the alphabet, and personally I think I only know of one. 22800. That makes it easy for the debtor to put away money or stock, and account for his deficiency by ficti- tious losses ?—Yes, that is so. 22801. And the Official Receivers have reason to be- lieve that this is often done?—They know it is olten done, and they have reason to believe it is much often«r done than they actually know. 22802. Would those three recent oases I have referred to come into the returns ?—Yes, I think they would. 22803. They were commented on by Mr. Registrar Linklater?—The comments are frequent, not only by Mr. Registrar Linklater, but by other registrars. I think Mr. Registrar Linklater has commented more than once on various cases. 22804. {Chairman.) You have mentioned, I think, that with regard to the German losses there was an excep- tional cause there?—Yes, in one case. There was a German bankrupt failed with liabilities of £102,000. 22805. That materially swells the amount of the Ger- man liabilities ?—Yes, I refer to that in my statement. 22806. Were there any exceptional cases as regards the Russians ?—Yes, there was one case—it was a man who called himself a Count (I am satisfied he had no right to the title), and he came over here with a patent which he intended to exploit, and he exploited it at the expense of the Englishmen to a very considerable ex- tent. He spent an immense sum of money. He set up. a racing establishment, and I think he spent something like £7,000 or £8,000 a year. 22807. Was this English money that he spent?—It was English -money that he spent. 22808. That added up the amount of the indebtedness ? —Yes, that was £30,000. The tables referred to by the witness were handed mr and are as follow— Mr. E. L. Hough. :18 May 1903. TABLE A. Table showing the Number of Persons against whom Receiving Orders were made in the High Court during the three years ended 31st March 1903 ; the amount of their Unsecured Liabilities, and the Approximate Loss to Creditors. Period. Number of Receiving Orders. Unsecured Liabilities. Approximate Loss to Creditors. The 9 months ending 31st December 1900 - The year 1901...... The year 1902 The 3 months ending 31st March 1903 - 529 700 598 169 £. 2,096,221 3,085,643 2,298,241 629,908 £. 1,808,452 2,450,360 1,790,828 541,064 Total - - - 1,996 8,110,013 6,590,704 Table showing the Number of Persons against whom Receiving Orders were made in the High Court during the three years ended 31st March 1903 ; the amount of their Unsecured Liabilities, and the Approximate Loss to Creditors. Average loss to Creditors, about 3,302£. per case. Average loss to Creditors, about 3,302£. per case. TABLE B. Table showing the Number of Alien Immigrants against whom Receiving Orders were made in the High Court during the three years ending 31st March 1903; the Approximate Amount of their Unsecured Liabilities, and the Approximate Loss to Creditors.__ Period. Number of Receiving Orders. Approximate Amount of Unsecured Liabilities. Approximate Loss to Creditors. The 9 months ending 31st December 1900 - The year 1901 ------ Th@ year 1902 ...... The 3 months ending 31st March 1903 - 77 97 88 27 £. 302,050 547,300 329,550 96,800 £. 293,700 525,150 310,450 91,550 Total - - 289 1,275,700 1,220,850 Table showing the Number of Alien Immigrants against whom Receiving Orders were made in the High Court during the three years ending 31st March 1903; the Approximate Amount of their Unsecured Liabilities, and the Approximate Loss to Creditors. Average loss to Creditors, about 4,224£. per case. Notes,—Of these 289 aliens 54 had failed on one or more previous occasions. There were 11 cases in which there had heeu two previous failures, three in which there had been three or more previous failures. The approximate loss to creditors entailed by these previous failures was about 354,000/. In the three years the Receiving Orders against alien immigrants represented nearly 14J per cent, of the total number of Receiving Orders. In the same period the unsecured liabilities in the alien immigrant cases amounted to upwards of 16 per cent, of the total unsecured liabilities, ROYAL COMMISSION ON AHE]^ IMMIGRATION : l| . No informa- ' t:on. During the 9 months ending 31st December 1900. 77 48 2 2 1 1 '2 5 16 During the year 1901 97 63 5 3 - 1 2 6 ! 17 !" During the year 1902 88 54 4 2 2 ' 3 1 7 ' ' ' 15 During the 3 months ending 31st March 1903. 27 13 2 - 1 2 - 2 7 Total - - - 289 178 13 7 4 7 5 ' 20 55 N.B.—Of the 55 cases in which no information is available, 26 represent cases of absconding or deceased bankrupts, and 10 represent cases where the alien had probably small (if any) capital. N.B.—Of the 55 cases in which no information is available, 26 represent cases of absconding or deceased bankrupts, and 10 represent cases where the alien had probably small (if any) capital. TABLE D. able showing the Nationality of the Alien Immigrants against. whom Receiving Orders were made in the High Court during the three years ending 31st March 1903. Number. Nationality. Unsecured Liabilities. £. 1 38 Americans ; ( 6 were Jews) - 393,373 2 92 Germans (21 „ „ ) - - - - 334,711 3 ! 74 Russians (48 - - - 233,663 4 11 Dutch ; ( 3 „ „ ) - - - - 73,958 5 20 Italians (la Jew) 68,134 6 7 French (1 „ ) 41,000 7 11 Austrians ( 3 were Jews) - - 28,434 3 Roumanians ( 3 „ „ ) - - - - 21,926 3 Turks (la Jew) 20,414 , 10 3 Greeks — - - ' - 14,385 11 2 Swedes and Norwegians } ----- 8,467 1 6 Swiss -- - 6,687 13 3 Spaniards (2 were Jews) - 4,563 1 2 Danes --- 2,538 15 1 Belgian --- 438 16 13 Unknown (10 were Jews) 23,006 Total 289 93 £. 1,275,697minutes of evidence. 839 TABLE E. Mr. E. L. Rough. 18 May 1903. Table showing the Trades or Occupations of the Alien Immigrants against whom .Receiving Orders were made in the High Court during the three years ending 31st March 1903. Trade or Occupation. Agents (23)— . £. - Manufacturers7 (4)- - ' - ' - n - - - - , 7,297 Mining and Colliery (2) - - - - - - - 3,119 Commission (10) - - - - - - - - - 25,491 General (6)- - - • - - . .. - _ - - 38,022 Fruit (1) - . ......- - - 1,791 Boot and Shoe Manufacturers and Dealers and Leather Merchants (18) - Bakers (8)........- , _ Cap and Hat Manufacturers (3)...... Company Promoters and Directors, Financial Agents and Speculators (40) Contractors (2)- - - -....... Clerks and Employees (5)......- - - - Diamond Merchants and Setters (5)- - - -..... Drapers (6)............. Furriers and Fur and Skin Merchants (5)1 - ..... Hairdressers (3)............ Inventors (2)............. Job Master (1)...... Journalist and Authors (2).......... Merchants (36)— £. China and Glass (4).........6;886 General (7)- - - - - - - - . - - - 31,376 Timber (4)..........- 17,547 "Wine (2)...........914 Silk, Hemp, Flax (2)........- 5,494 Musical Instruments (2).....- 10,454 Hides, Bristles, Cork (3) ------- - 21,077 Oil and Glucose (2)......- - - 10,791 Miscellaneous (10) - -- -- -- -- 49,555 Mantle Manufacturers (3)......... Milliners (3)............. No occupation (4) - - - - - Patent Medicine Vendors (3) - ~ -...... Publicans (6) - - -...... . Provision Merchants—Dealers and Grocers (13) - - Professors of Music and Composers (3) - - - - Picture and Fine Art Dealers and Photographers (5) - Restaurant Keepers (7) - - - - - - Tobacconists and Cigar Merchants (13) - - - - - Tailors, Hosiers, Clothiers and*Trimmings Merchants (14) - Upholsterers, Cabinet Makers, Furniture Dealers, and Ironmongers (12) Watch *md Clock Makers and Jewellers (9) Miscellaneous (.35) - . - Total - - - £. Total Unsecured Liabilities. £. 75,720 37,000 5,036 12,442 556,584 7,289 10,676 35,290 10,889 25,532 1,342 6,867 52,164 9,642 154,094 12,826 11,997 4,666 34,668 6,691 37,864 2,682 46,267 13,300 31,021 ' 19,197 14,662 ^ 4,745 <34,565 1,275,718840 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION . Captain Alfred George Chalmers, called; and Examined. Captain A . G. Chalmers. 18 May 1903. 22809. (Chairman.) What is your position a.t the Board of Trade?—I am professional member of the Marine Department. That is the title I have, and I was formerly Emigration Officer and Nautical Officer in the same department, stationed at various out-ports. 22810. What was your official duty in connection with emigrants ? Have you any with regard to immigrants ? —None with regard to immigrants, except that our emi- gration officers at the port where they land send for- ward a list of those arriving from ports out of Europe, not the immigrants coming from Europe. 22811. I want to< distinguish between emigrants and immigrants. Whom do you deal with ?—Emigrants. 22812. What is your duty with regard to emigrants?— We have to do with the procedure which controls em- barkation of emigrants at ports in the United Kingdom and bound to ports out of Europe. 22813. That distinction is drawn. I suppose the ports out of Europe include first the Colonial ports ?—Yes. 22814. And then principally, I suppose, the United States of America ?—Yes. 22815. Does the Irish immigration come under your notice?—Yes, our emigration officers are at the Irish ports as well, 22816. What duties do you discharge ? What do you see to, if I may use the term ?—We see that the con- tract tickets with which the emigrants are supplied are in order. 22817. Are you referring now to transmigrants or only to the starting emigrants from here ?—The starting emigrants from here. 22818. You are shutting out for the moment anything to do with transmigration ?—Yes, we have no knowledge of transmigration. The contract tickets run simply from the port in the United Kingdom, and pur duty is. con- fined to' seeing that the passenger when he is embarked at the port in the United Kingdom has his contract ticket in order. 22819. (Mr. Vallance.) Would not the transmigrant require a contract ticket ?—The transmigrant would re- quire a contract ticket, but we do not know him as a transmigrant. 22820. Still the transmigrant is included ?—Yes. 22821. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It is part of the paternal juris- diction of the Board of Trade?—Yes. Transmigrants would have to come under our observation. 22822. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Even with a through ticket or not?—We do not see the through ticket. All we have to deal with is the ticket which is issued in the United Kingdom. 22823. (Chairman.) Supposing there is no ticket issued in the United Kingdom; supposing he does get a through ticket, what then ?—We will not allow him to ;go unless he has a ticket issued in the United Kingdom, 22824. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Supposing he takes a ticket in Germany or Russia, and passes through the United Kingdom, has he to get another ticket?—He lias to get another ticket. 22825. (Chairman.) What class of ticket would he get :if he has already his through ticket ?—He would get the statutory contract ticket, which is an official form sanc- tioned under Appendix 6 of the Merchant Shipping Act. He gets that on production of his through ticket. 22826. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Then the transmigrants 'Come under your notice as emigrants ?—Yes. 22827. (Chairman.) You see if they have got their ^contract tickets?—Yes. 22828. Anything else?—We examine them medically to see they are not unfit to proceed by reason of any mental or bodily disease. 22829. How is that duty cast on the Board of Trade ? I can understand the shipowner doing it, but why does the Board of Trade see to that ?—'For the protection of the other passengers. We see they have no mental or bodily disease, which would unfit them to travel them- selves and cause trouble on the ship, or that they have- not anything which would cause infection or be a danger to the other passengers. We examine them in that way. "Then we examine their quarters to> see that they are properly lodged, and Jiave the space and accommodation required by the Act, and all the food which they are to have in transit is examined beforehand. 22830. Is this a duty under the Merchant Shipping Act?—Yes. 22831* And it would equally apply if you were sending out natives?—Our own people, yes. It applies to all emigrants. 22832. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You are not distinguishing aliens ?—No. 22833. (Chairman.) In fact, it is all passengers?—Yes. 22834. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Not all passengers—all emigrants ?—All emigrants. 22835. (Chairman.) But why not all passengers?—^ " Steerage passengers " is the expression. 22836. A steerage passenger need not be an emigrant ? —It -applies to all steerage passengers. 22837. That is your duty under the Merchant Shipping Act ?—Yes 22838. Of course, 999 out of 1,000 of the emigrants come under that, and they are steerage passengers ?— Yes, they all come under the head of steerage pas- sengers. Then we see that the ship is properly equipped with, 'boats and life-saving appliances, and everything of that sort, and that she is properly seaworthy, and in. addition to that every steerage passenger and cabin passenger also is entered upon a list. This list is sum- marised and totalled, the English being put in one column, the Scotch in one column, the Irish in another column, and all foreigners in another. 22839. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Without distinguishing the nationality of foreigners ?—Yes. 22840. They are classed as foreigners?—Yes. 22841. (iChairman.) Do you take the names from the men themselves ?—The contract ticket, is. in two parts, and as the passenger passes on board the emigration officer tears the counterfoil off and keeps it, and with that counterfoil: he checks the passenger list. He knows absolutely who is and who is not on board. 22842. He checks the list furnished by the captain? —Yes, under the Act, so that he knows absolutely whether there are too many on board or too few on board, or whether they are all entered up on the list. 22843. I suppose the nationalities lie gathers from the name and statement ?—Yes. 22844. (Mr. Vallance.) In the case of the. saloon passengers,their names are printed, are they not, in a list ?—No, the names are entered in writing, the same as the steerage passengers, 22845. Is it not the practice on the Atlantic lines t» print their names ?—.Some, I believe, type the names or print them, but in our lists they are mostly written, I think. There will be a printed list for the shipowners' use probably, but for our official lists the names are written in manuscript. 22846. (Chairman.) Have you any means of knowing whether the mail who comes on board, say, with foreign name is transmigrant, and) whether he has come away direct from Bremen oit Hamburg, and is going on, or whether he is starting afresh from this country ? Have you any means of finding out whether the man is a trans- migrant or not ?—We have not in every case. In some cases it comes to us in this way: that the vessel will be sailing probably from Greenock on- the Clyde for New York, and when our emigration officer is engaged in see- ing1 everything ready a telegram will come down from the owners to say a boat has just arrived at Leith, and they are going to send 80 or whatever the number is of emigrants on by special train, and will the officer be good enough to wait and perform the inspection for them also. In that case 'he would; know that these 80 were transmigrants. But in most casesi they arrive in Glas- gow or Liverpool beforehand, and are lodged in the different lodging-houses and are brought thence on board ship, so that, the emigration officer has no means of knowing whether they have been resident two years or one day in the kingdom. 22847. Take the case of a man arriving in London. He really is going to America, and he arrives in London from Hamburg, and gives his name as Emil^Schezin^er. In 48 hours you find) him in Southampton shipping under the same name. Are there any means at present by which the identity of the man arriving in the port of London and the man going on from Southampton is traced out —'None at all just now. 22848. We have had it in evidence it is known thatMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 841 sometimes they do that. Similarity of name would bo, T suppose, found out at the Board of Trade, because they get the Custom House returns of arrivals, and you as emigration officer would send up the names of those you passed?—Yes, the names of those on the Passenger List. That is the only way we could check the similarity. 22849. You get an appropriate identity of them, and you get similarity of name. That is the only way you can trace the transmigrants ?—That is the only way the Statistical Department would be able to trace them. 22850. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You would have better means of doing it if their separate nationalities were entered on the Emigrant List. You would know so many Russians came into London by the Alien List, and so many Russians went out to America ?—Yes. 22851. They have every inducement to change their names. You would get some idea of the numbers, that stay in the country, because you know the numbers that oome in, and the particularity of the numbers that go out of that nationality, whatever their names may be ?— Quite so. 22852. (Mr. Vallance.) Do you secure the identity of the individual by a comparison of the through ticket with the name he gives ? Is the name of the through ticket not perpetuated on your contract ticket ?—As i'ar as our emigration officers of the Board of Trade are concerned, they have nothing to do with the through passage ticket. The through ticket would be given up to the passage broker in Glasgow or Liverpool, or wherever the vessel starts from, and an official contract ticket issued for it, and we never see the through ticket. We would have no right to see it. We cannot ask for it. 22853. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) And the people who have through tickets are not the people who change their names. The people who change their names have not through tickets?—-No. 22854. i(Mr. Yallance.) Do they not submit the through ticket in lieu of cash for a contract ticket?—• They will do that at the office of the broker who issues the contract ticket. 22855. (Chairman.) We have heard that for commer- cial purposes it is cheaper for a man at, say, Bremen or Hamburg to take a ticket to England as a final contract, and then make a second contract to go on from England to America, and to receive money in preference to taking a through ticket. Have you any knowledge of that practice?—I should say it is the other way. We have no knowledge of it. 22856. (Major Evans-Gordon.) How do you mean it is the other way ?—I should say they would be able to do it more cheaply by booking through to America. 22857. (Chairman.) We have had evidence they can do it cheaper. Have you anything more you want to say about this system of which you take charge ?—I do not think there is anything more to say. You do not want to know what our powers are to re-land passengers if they are found to be unfit to proceed, I suppose ? (Chairman.) Yes, we should like to know about that. 22858. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you examine on board ship?—We examine them on the quay, or some- times on the tug-boat as they pass up the gangway to go to> the ship. Sometimes they are examined on board, but we prefer to examine them before they go on board, for fear there should be some infection. 22859. Then it is a very superficial examination if it is done on board the tug boat ?—Not at all. 22860. What can you examine them for?—As they oome to the gangway from the tug-boat to the steamer or from the landing stage to the steamer, the two doctors are there, the ship's doctor and the Board of Trade doctor, and the emigration officer. If a case is a sus- picious one it is put on one side. If it is not, and if the man is perfectly clear, his hands are examined, and the doctor examines whatever he wishes to make .an examina- tion of, and the man passes on board. But all suspici- ous cases are put on one side, and they are examined ex- haustively after the rest have gone. 22861. What are the causes of rejection?—We reject for whooping cough, measles, chicken pox, and anything that is infectious or contagious. 22862. For syphilis?—I think we would reject for syphilis. 22863. That you cannot possibly discover on board the tug-boat ?—You can if there were secondary symptoms. 6144. Captain A. G. Chalmers. 22864. But otherwise you could not?—In my own ex- perience we have rejected for that. 22865. (Chairman.) Supposing you do find these__ things, and you get an alien, a poor person, what do you jg May 1903. do with him ?—We re-land him, and he is chargeable-- to the passage brokers who sold him his ticket until he either recovers and is shipped in another ship of the same brokers, is returned to the country at his own ex- pense. 22866. Trimd facie it would be that you charge the shipping company ?—Yes, there is a section dealing with that in the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894, and it em- powers us to charge a shipping company with that. Sections 306, 307, and 308 deal with it. 22867. (Mr. Lyttelton.) In your experience have you ever had any case where objection has been taken to the repatriation of such a person ?—No, I have never heard of a case. 22868. That is not compulsory repatriation ; the ship- ping broker has to look to it?'—'Yes. 22869. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) As a matter of fact, are these people repatriated ?—No, the great bulk of them go on again. 22870. But with regard to a person who has got some- thing permanent which prevents his going on, is there any practical difficulty, as far as you know, in actually sending him back to his country ?—That would not come under us. 22871. You hand him over to the passage broker'(—• Yes. 22872. (Major Evans-Gordon.) The passage broker is supposed to take him back, and if the passage broker can recover money for that he can do so. You do not know anything of that ?—If he does not find him the passage to the place for which he booked he is bound to remit the whole of the passage money to the passenger. 22873. He could recover it in a Court ?—He is not bound to go to the Court. The, Emigration Officer can recover summarily for him, and the Emigration Officer compels the shipping line, if the man does not eventually get the passage, to give the person his whole passage money back. 22874. How long a time is given for that ? Can they go on indefinitely?—It does not fix the time, but until he recovers it he is charge able to the shipping company.. 22875. So that there is an inducement to get rid of him ?—Yes. 22876. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Are you always governed by the consideration of the health and safety of the other passengers ?—Yes ; but that is not the only point. The language of the section is: " That none of the steerage passengers or crew appear to be, by reason of any bodily or mental disease, unlit to proceed, or likely to endanger the health or safety of the other persons, about to proceed in the ship." 22877. That is the reason I asked the question. It is- in their interests, as well as in the interests of the other passengers?—Yes. 22878. It is incidentally also in the interests of the- country to which the passenger is going ?—Quite so. 22879. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Have you any experience of enforcing these regulations against foreign ships?— If a foreign ship calls and takes a sufficient number of steerage passengers on board at an English port to bring the total number of steerage passengers up to 50, then we have the same power as we have with a British ship. We require a contract ticket ; we require- the space for accommodation, and the food, and the boat and life saving appliances, and everything, to be the- same. If she only takes cabin passengers we have no power. 22880. Supposing a foreign steamer comes under a liability of that kind, what is the mode of enforcing the liability, and against whom do you enforce it ?—Against the agent. 22881. Who is resident here in this country ?—Yes. 22882. Is that under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act—does that Act make the agent liable ?—>. Yes. 22883. (Mr. Vallance.) When the number of passen- gers is brought up to 50 do your powers extend to the medical examination of those who have entered the port 5 O842 ROYAL COMMISSION CN ALIEN IMMIGRATION : •Chalmers. 18 May 1903. i v.;,-. as well as. those who embark ?—Our powers extend, but wsi would not. use tlie-ai ..except in suspicious. cases. 228B4. ($tr Kenelm Digby.) 'Supposing any liability should be imposed on foreign sMps bringing iihmigrants here either with respect to cleanliness or the unfitness of the persons whom they bring, can any provision of that sort tee properly; enforced —That is, a home trade ship mmg in ? 22885. Yes. I do not know whether that comes within your department?—It could be undertaken, but it might mean an. increase of staff. 22886. There is no law at present which enables you "U* do it ?—No,. none at all. 22887. Supposing Parliament should pass such a law, wo-uld; there, be any practical difficulty in enforcing it P-— if one at all, with an increase of staff* 22888* You would have to enforce it against the ship, or against the agent for the ship?—Yes, quite so. Against the ship whilst she is in the port. 22889. Supposing Parliament should impose an obliga- tion upon all ships coming in here, and make the ship or some agent of the ship responsible for having persons pa board who were unfit to be landed, do you see any practical difficulty in enforcing that?—That would have to be for the Customs Department to deal with. I understood you just now to be referring to the ships, and the condition of the ships. Now you are referring to the /condition of the immigrants. 22890. Yes ?—That would have to come under the ^Customs Department. With regard to the ships, we "would, have to deal with them. -22891. I was going to ask you with, regard to the -condition of the ships. They are improved now, but, si»me are still very bad. Would you see any practical ■ difficulty in enforcing an obligation to have the ships in -proper order?—None at all. We would be ready to look .after them the same as we look after British ships. .22892. (Major Evans-Gordon.) ■ Have you got the same ■ power over a foreign ship as to her sanitary condition that,,you have over an English ship?—Only if she takes -steerage passengers at our ports in such a number as -to come up to 50. 22893. We do not enforce any of our conditions on foreign ships, such as the Plimsoll mark and those -'things ?—No. 22894. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) So far as we know at ^present, it is only if they come under the Public Health . Act, and fall within the definition of a house, and if ther© is a nuisance on board ship ?—Yes. (Chairman.) We had this before the Committee of the House of Commons. If they come here for the purpose • •of trading^ ^nd; stop, at our ports for the purpose of trading, they then come under the Merchant Shipping Act, but if 'they only come here to take water in or to .land a passenger they do not. 22895. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You see no difficulty in legisla t.on which would ens are in a more • effective ' way"* the sanitary condition of ships bringing immigrants here ?—None at 'all.'. 22896. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Has the Board of Trade- any means of checking the passage brokers with-regard to the people who are sent back ?—No, none at all. Our duty is done when the man has received his passage money back in full. 22897. So far you do go?—Yes. 22898. After that you have no trace of them at all ?— No. 22899. Can you tell me whether the licensed passenger brokers make any return of those to whom they have supplied contract tickets ?—In the United Kingdom the licensed passenger broker's return is the passenger list which furnishes a return. 22900. Does that refer to contract tickets?—Yes. Only those are entered in the passenger lists who have contract tickets. Unless they have contract tickets they would not appear on the list, and they would not have been allowed on the ship. 22901. They must have contract tickets?—They must have contract tickets. That is the first condition. 22902. (Mr. Lyttelton.) The master is not allowed to enter any passenger on the list unless he has a con- tract ticket ?—That is so. 22903. (Major Evans-Gordon.) With regard to cattle men, those are passengers coming into the port. They are engaged as seamen on the ship, but they are mostly tending cattle?—Yes. 22904. So that, although they appear on the books of the ship as seamen and crew, they are not really seamen at all ?—Under the definition in the Merchant Shipping Act they are, because it defines everyone who is engaged in any capacity on board ship, as a seaman. 22905. It is rather stretching the term " seaman " to include these cattle men ?—They would have to be called seamen under the Act. 22906. They engage and come over here for the trip ? —That is so. 22907. Do you know anything about these people? Do you come in contact with them at all ?—No, we are not brought into contact with them. 22908. You assume many of them go to and fro ?—Yes. 22909. It is a means for people in a bad way to work their way across to England ?—Yes; some of them do, I believe. 22910. Have you heard complaints with regard to their character and state of poverty after they land ?-—No. 22911. Merging in the general population ?—No, we have no complaints of that sort. 22912. There are complaints, but you have not heard of them ?—We have not had them at Whitehall. Mr. Robert Smillie, called; and Examined. IMr ~E 22913. Lyttelton:) You are President of the Scot- tish Miners' Federation ?—Yes. - 22914. What is the ambit of power of your 3T^deration —is it all over Scotland, or only in certain parts ?—i About 85to 90 per cent, of the whole of the Scottish miners belong to my Federation. 22915. As President of the Federation you therefore are familiar practically with the condition of the mining' industry in Scotland ?—Yes, my whole time is devoted to the work of the Association. 22516. Do- you know approximately the number of :aliens employed in Scottish mines?—The aliens are em- i ployed^ the West of Scotland, and chiefly in the. county -An. which , ,1.- am personally engaged, Lanarkshire, , the - : great central county of gootland. We had ,;some returns made up early last year in consequence of the returns remade to the Home Office by the Mines Inspector, >which •we doubted. We had some returns made by our own secretaries at each of, the. collieries/ Those -retuipsf are mot by any. means complete, but they show. that early ta&t year 1,320 aliens were employed underground in the mines in .Lanarkshire ,in the portion for which we had the returns. 'v , / ... .22917. Dx^ you know .what proportion that 1,320 bore to all the miners employed ?—There are, roughly, 31,000 employed underground. These returns are not. com- plete. Many of the collieries did not make returns, but the returns which we have show that at that period f there were 1,320 aliens employed, ahd they have largely increased since that time. ' 22918. You say they have largely increased. Have you had further returns about that ?—We have not had the returns, but we see them every week. 22919. Coming in ?—Yes. 22920. Do you know in what way your secretaries have obtained1 this information ?—Yes. . 22921. What , has been their method, because it is in conflict with the evidence which has been giv« n by the mine owners here?1—Yes, I fully understood it was. I have the names here of 114 branches of our associa- tion in the county of Lanark. At almost every one of those collieries there are men called check weighers employed by the workmen to check the weight of the materia! coming up. Those men are in touch, a® much as men possibly can be, with all the workmen employed underground, and in order to have the figures as accurate as possible I requested those men to make up the returns, and those are the returns with which I have been supplied. 'MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. •843 '' 22922. (Sir Kenel/m Digby.) What date is that?—-It is early last year—aibout March, 1902. ^ $2923. .fcyiMton.) ■ These check weighers are gb^cHigh^ in, qonstat contact with the n^n, and 4#jtih$y jjidge frpm conversation with, the men, or from.: their names, or by talking with them, or how?1—They judge from, conversations with them ; not from their names, because they could not judge from their names. : i$M Kenehrh Digby.) In May, 1901, the. inspector's report, was 1,130. « 22924. (Mr. Lyttelton.) It has increased to 1,320 in March,; 1902 ?—His figures given here are utterly in- correct. s r(Mr. Lyttelton.) There would not be very much dis- parity. 22925. (Chairman.) The check weighers- only go by the language?—Yes. l^,i^2926.i Supposing a Scottish check weigher finds a liAkfci who has come from London, what nationality would he regard him to be?—He would regard him as a /Britisher. A mistake has crept in here. My re-turns mre not full. They only show 1,320, but the returns- made by Mr. Ronaldson he says are full. ;22927. (Mr. ■ Lyttelton.) If he says there were 1,130 •in/1901,1 you say there are 1,320 in an incomplete return in > 1902 ?-^-And we may add to that (several hundreds with regard to whom we have not returns. 22928. Do you say that the foreigners work at the face without supervision?—The foreigners who- work at the face are absolutely unskilled, and in many cases are not under the supervision of a skilled workman. ''! 22929. (Chairman.) Whose fault is that ?!—The man- agement of the collieries. h i(Mr. Lyttelton.) There is a remedy, I suppose, under tlia specif, .rules,. is there not? • ; 22930. (Sir Kenelnrv Digby.) Rule 39 of the Act of 1887 is the rule that bears upon that. "!No person not now employed as a coial or ironstone , getter shall be a,lipped. to work alone as a . coal or ironstone getter in the^faQe-ofthe workings until he has. had; two years* experience of such work under the superviisio^i of {skilled Hro^nfeii; or unle&s he shall have been previously ern- ployed for two years in or about the face of the work- ings of a mine." 22931. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You complain of; the breach of th^t. rule?;—'Yes. 22932. Have you taken any steps- to remedy your grievance uijder thgs law ?^I ;think - it ds ^ell known to {th$ Inspector of Mine®. Tjy 229$3.-rThat is not quite the point. Have you taken any steps to remedy that grievance under the law ? .Those special rules are punishable by summary con- viction ?—The statute says, that ail unskilled person shall not work alone, but the statute does not say iti^-jtfeireB*^ii'skilled> ^-ersdn-s 'or two unskilled persons i'shiall-not-work together. v 22934. Have yo-u raised that point?—We have. '|2j935.'. 'not.,_gone further?'—No, we put that matter before the Home Secretary. , The finding of the English Court on -the question is that the Act does not say that two unskilled persons) may not work together, arid consequently in some . cas-es: two and •three and. four unskilled', persons are, working together pur knowledge. The intention of the Legislature iWasi that, unskilled persons should not work ; together without supervision, but the' Act was badly^drafted, r. ?2936. From your, point of view, the peril that might varise from the e^pl'oyment of unskilled persons might ,be- increased ,by more than two, because more people would be exposed to danger ?—'Undoubtedly. , ,22937. (Sir Kenel/m Digby.) How long ago> do you say this complaint was made to the Home Secretary?-— We have approached the successive Home Secretaries ^tji^^st^fpp- years on the question of the employment ^0,1. .forteig?i .workonen underground. We approached Sir ^|^ew -;Ki^loy; we -.approached- Mr. .Ritchie, ^aml w^^Jiave approached Mjc. ^kers .Douglas..since?-, that. ,®iat reply fs made;every time we have approached them o^r^Ls|jq^stion.;V 7.....7. "Vi f:.. , 22938. I ;haye£: ;:-■J^eiere(ttce^»teat^•i^^! 1900 : ; It is ?^re|enjted. {tliajSeciretary..of ( State, by the,Miners' JMeritidn that Gener4 -ftule 39 of the Act' of 1887 'o&n be construed as allowing two unskilled workmen to wo'T?k together alone at the face of the workings while prohibiting one so working. He wishes to- be informed 6141. whether any attempts to evade the rule in this manner Mr,, M- have come to the notice of the inspectors." Then., Smillu,. " The inspectors reported that for some years no com- .-77—•' plaints had been ihade in1 their respective "districts as to any breach of Section 49, General Rule 39,: Coal Mines Regulation Act, 1887." 22939. (Chairman.) What was your complaint to the Home Secretary ?—We had complained to the Home Secretary on three occasions- as to- the employment of unskilled foreign workmen, who did not understand the language, on the ground of that danger, and I have pointed out to the Home Secretary that the rule is> Deing evaded. 22940. They may have evaded the spirit of the rule,, but the letter of the rule is followed according to your -account. There is no breach of the rule as existing? —As it has been interpreted. 22941. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Your complaintt first was a general complaint about foreigners not being acquainted^ with the language, and incidentally as part of that general complaint you made this special one of the evasion of the rule?—Yes, we wanted an amendment. of this rule to carry out what we believed the law- warn intended ; to be. - 22942. Have you received anything from the- Home Office in the way of a pledge or piromise ?—'We have at the _ presenit time a Mines Act in which we endeavour to put that clause right. 22943. (Chairman.) Is it a Government Bill?—The ^ Government is not doing it, but we promoted & Bill* privately, in which that clause is dealt with.. 22944. I understand Mr. Gilmour is going to Be called: . to give evidence on certain of these points. Have you- , anything else you wish to say ?—'I am, particular iy anxious to say that the,foreign workmen have been men- - tioned here as. Poles. . They are:-not Poles. Ninety per cent. ,of them are. Lithuanians) .and belong to, a distiaut nationality altogether, from the Poles. The language* is - . liithuanese. It has been pointed out to- :the Commissi on* that .the rules of the collieries. in Lanarkshire v-ere* printed by s-o-me of the employers in the Rusisian-Jewish*... language. That has been done in the case of one- col- liery by one owner. They have been kept in the office,... and they are not posted in the mines. Miners work: . under 150 special.rules for their safety. The rules have been printed in the Russian language or Russian-Jewish language, but they are kept in the office, and they are * • not posted at any places at the pit bank. . Those/foreign1: workmen are engaged in the most dangerous part- of our / mines, what is known-as the Fiery District. - There have* been two very, very serious explosions, there, in which hundreds of men have lost,their.lives. .Almost everyone*. of those l,32d men 5are employed in the Fiery District. They use safety lights. , Thjey may. at any time meet a, large body of Jexplosiye gas, •Ninety .per .cent., of them\ do not, understand a single word of .the English, language. They have never seen, a mine before they .came .here, and 1 . there is no mine in the country, from which they come. They go down the mine; they are not in a position to. . take instructions from an English-sp eaking deputy or • firman,, and they are a serious danger indeed to them- selves and our own people. It is said that the accidents to them are not out of proportion to the great number of..... men employed^ That is chiefly because they do not keep their own names, but adopt the name of Jolhn v Smith, or William Jones, or some other name, and it is; impossible for those who have made-a return'^to this; Commission' to give accurate returns. Many men are? injured, and their names go into' the newspapers, but it is John Smith or William Jones, or some other name, and any figures which have been put in here to say that the rate of. accidents to them is not so high, or very little higher, than it is to British workmen^ are mis-, leading. ,22945. (Mr. Lyttelton.) is that necessarily so % I sup - pose if a man, from ignorance of the rules, commits some* indiscretion, the disaster is just as likely to fall upon* his neighbour as upon himself in the case of explosion. rTl- any rate %—Yes. ' 22946. I suppose in the case of falls the •accident. generally happens to the man who has been unskilled V ■—^To himself or fto the people immediately with him. 229^7. (Chairman.) Has any explosion been traced to these foreigners ?—No. 22948. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Or has any single acci- dent to a British workman been traced to these foreigners?—We have not at the present time had any- single accident caused to a British workman bv fa844 ItOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. B. Smillie. 18 May 1903. foreigner, but we are extremely anxious to prevent an accident which may sweep away two or three hundred of our awn people. In the mines at the present time, when a man goes down to work in the morning he is told by the fireman who has examined the mine that morning that his place is clear or dangerous. He is told some place is boarded up, and he is not to go in there. A vast majority of the men of whom we speak now do not understand a single word that is said to them. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) But we have had evidence that though they may not understand English, they have the rules explained to them, and they obey them. We have had very strong evidence as to that. 22949. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Those things that you refer to are things that occur from day to day, and are not susceptible of a general printed rule, but these in- structions are given respecting the conditions of the mine as on a special day, and you say they cannot under- stand even those instructions ?—Although they willingly submit to rules, they do not understand the instructions. 22950. (Chairman.) Is there no interpreter there?— No, there is no interpreter. 22951. Not one man who understands English and this Lithuanese language ?—Yes, there may be one out of 10 or 15 who understands a little English. 22952. Cannot he be called in to interpret ?—The only place that any interpretation can take place in is the Court. 22953. But I mean at the mine?—That has not been so up to the present time. 22954. (Mr. Lyttelton.) You referred to certain Ger- ■ inans who are. in the mine '/'—The total number we have , up to the present time is about 40, but they are skilled miners before they leave Germany, and very careful workmen. "We have not complained' about them. Our complaint is chiefly on the ground of the danger to our men, but during the past six months we have had to change, to some extent, our ground on that, because a large number of our workmen are going about idle, and «cairnot find employment, and the aliens are all em- ployed. 22955. (Chairman.) What do you mean by changing -your ground ?—We have had to add to our grounds. ,22956. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Preference is being shown, -iyou >say, to the foreigners by the employers ?—Yes, they Hare .preferred. 22957. Chi what ground ?—Chiefly on the ground that] —the foreigner is docile, and) does not stick out to want * higher .wages or good1 prices, and he does pretty much .^as he is wanted. 22958. You do not say you do not want him to work; in the mine at all ?—No, we say he shall only work in> -"the mine under similar conditions to the British work- in aiL 'We do not object1 to him as a foreigner at all. ;We say,. in the first place, his want of knowledge of our "language and.the fact that he has no previous experience are'dangers, and we object to him on that ground. ;22Q59. We understand that, but we do not understand - this added points—This, added point is that he is now : being used' during the dull period to bring down the wages of the native workmen. 22960. Have youimade any comparison as between the ^British worker and the Lithuanian as regards the wagjes —they are content to receive?—Oh, yes, we have cases pointed out to us repeatedly, and; those workmen being, Iteought over and started with one of their own country- r men, and their wages paid by him may be 2s. or 2s. 6d. day. 22961. (Chairman.) Unskilled men?—Yes. 22962. B^t ;take him after he has become a skilled man and a good miner ; are you complaining of him ? —Yes, ,we are complaining of him. 22963. Why ?—Because he works under circumstances as to price, and he is ready to work under circum- stances as to price'that our own people will not accept. 22964. A lower wage ?—Yes, they can live a great deal .cheaper than our own people. 22965. -Can you verify that?—Yes. 22966. Have you any instances?—We have a very good instance of that. We had to threaten to stop 4,000 miners a few weeks ago, because of the fact that foreign workmen had 3d. a ton hewing rate under ^ our own people. 32967. Was that at Tannochside ?—Yes. 22968. You are not objecting to a man being an alien because he is an alien, but whatever nationality he is, you object to him because he is working under the price that our workmen work for?—Yes, whether he is a British workman, he may be skilled or may not be, >he is a source of danger to his fellow workmen, and should not work at a lower price. 22969. (Mr. V allance.) But, as a fact, is not the skilled Lithuanian receiving the same wage as the native worker ?— long as we are able to find out what he is receiving. Our association frequently force owners to pay higher rates to foreign workmen, but we have a difficulty very often in finding out whether they are receiving the same price or not. 22970. {Chairman.) Have you any case of a British workman behaving in the same way as the Lithuanians, and taking less ?—Yes, we have. 22971. You have to deal with him in the same way ?—< Yes, but they are able to tell us. We sometimes cannot find out from the foreign workman what he is being paid. 22972. You have no preference for one person or another, but you say all persons ought to work at the standard wage?—Yes. 22973. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The Tannochside case was a case of a very thin seam, was it not ?—No, it waa an ordinary seam. It was a good enough seam as far as height was concerned. It was 3ft. 5in., which was a very ordinary seam, but the manager at Tannochside threatened some time ago that unless our men worked for lower rates he would bring in Polish labour, as he called it, to take the place of our men. 22974. {Major Evans-Gordon.) Putting the standard wages out of the question, and the wages they worked for out of the question, do you say that, supposing they worked for the same rate and so forth, you would welcome any amount of foreign labour to compete with the local British labour on the spot?—We do not wel- come it at all. 22975. Would you object to it?—We would object to foreign labour coming in at all, providing we ourselves could provide sufficient labour for the labour market. 22976. Provided you get enough for your men, then you do not mind the others coming in ?—No. 22977. Supposing your men were out of employment, would you welcome it ?—No, we would object to it. 22978. Apart from the question of wages altogether ? —Yes. 22979. Is that competition going on ?—Yes. 229B0. You say in your statement you have got 500 men, or nearly 1,000 men, idle?—Yes, at the present time. 22981. And 1,320 men at least working underground are foreigners?—That is so. 22982. Do you object to 1,320 places being occupied when there are 1,000 Englishmen out of work ?—It is a most unfortunate thing that our own people should go about idle, and be going to America and Canada, while foreigners are being brought in to take their places. 229B3. You object to it on that ground as well as on the ground of wages?—Yes. 22984. {Mr. Lyttelton.) You do partly object to their docility? They are not as good fighting material as Scotchmen or Englishmen! ?—When it comes to a fight they are better fighting material than we are, because they can live on a great deal less. 22985. In that sense; but I mean when you get a dispute with the employer the foreigner is more docile and less good in that fight than the British?—That haa not Been our experience. When it comes to fighting they light side by side with us, and they can live well on the amount we pay them, but it is when they are not fighting that their docility ruins us. 22986. {Chairman.) In answer to Major Evans-Gordon you said you objected to foreigners coming in here while our men are remaining idle. Have you any idea how many British workmen are working in foreign lands now, and do you know whether there are foreign workmen there idle or not ? Would you like to see the British workman turned out of foreign lands ?—I would not. 22387. You would have to consider that if we turn foreign workmen out here. Do not you think we shall get our British workpeople sent back?—I object veryMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 845 .•strongly to our British workmen getting preferential treatment in France, and French workmen going about idle. 22988. Your point is not so much with regard to -preferential treatment, but that foreigners are employed while British workmen are not working? — But the foreign workmen do get preferential treatment. 22989. But you would object even if they did not get preference. The principle is that there should be pre- ference of employment given to the British workmen •over the foreign?—I object to them being fully em- ployed while our men are going about idle. 22990. That is not a question of preference. It is a •question as to whether they should not be employed while British workmen are unemployed. Supposing the Tule is applied by a foreign nation, and we get our work- men sent back, because if you go about abroad you ••cannot shut your eyes to the fact that a good many 'British workmen are employed abroad ? — In new ^countries. 22991. NOj in old countries too ?—Then it is because the British people are the only people who can do the work satisfactorily. 22992. But the foreign workmen will not think so. "You do not want to see the British workmen sent back to this country, do you?—Under certain conditions I think I should. 22993. What are they F—If they get preferential treat- ment. 22994. It is not the point of preferential treatment, "but whether they are being employed simply because ibhey are doing the work better ?—Under those conditions 1 should not like to see them sent back. 22995. Do you not see that we must be very careful iiow we treat foreign workmen here ?—We have treated .them remarkably well. 22996. But if you say, " You shall not work because a .British workman is out of employment," they will not .think you are treating them well?—We will not say so. 22997. But you have said so to-day. You have said ;£hat you object to the foreigners being employed so long ,-as the British workman is out of employment ?—I say -we have reason to complain that 1,320 foreigners are -working underground and our own people are going .about idle. We have reason to complain that our people should go about idle while these foreigners are working sunder ground. 22998. Your point is that you would not allow these 'foreigners to be employed sio long as our 1,320 are un- employed ?—I would not say that, but when a person representing the owners comes here and says they have .not displaced labour, I come here and say they have. 22999. I do understand you to say that you would not liave allowed the foreigners to be employed so long as 1,320 British workmen are unemployed ?—I would not my that. 23000. Then I misunderstood you. What do you say ? —What I say is that evidence has been brought before the Commission pointing out that no native labour has "been displaced. I say that for years our only complaint .against the foreigner was that he was a source of danger through want of knowledge of the language and want of .skill, but that now we have fair reason to complain, because, as a matter of fact, they are coming in, and our own people are walking about idle. I think it is un- necessary that foreign labour should be brought in here, "because it is unnecessary labour if our people are going ;about idle. 23001. Take ;tlie present condition of things. I under- stand you to say that you want 1,300 British workmen taken on to be employed and so exclude 1,300 foreigners, and let those foreigners take care of themselves until the British worker is fully satisfied ?—No, I would like them -all to be treated on equal terms. £3002. Is there room for them ?—Not at the present time. They should have the same opportunities and Mr. U. conditions as our own people. Smillie. 23003. Then you are mixing up the question of pre-18 May 1903. ference that I thought we had got rid of. You are not complaining now of the question of preference^ but the non-employment of English workers 2—Yes. 23004. You naturally want to see them taken on ?■— Yes, we like to see them fully employed. 23005. What is to become of the foreigners ?—The foreigner who is already here would require to take his chance. 23006. His chance would be slight, but now we come to the chance of the British workman being treated in the same way abroad, and he would be told to take his chance. I wish you would think these things out in a broad manner. We have broad considerations to think of, and not only particular interests 1—The chief complaint against me, my Lord, is that I take too broad views of this matter. 23007. (Major Evans Gordon.) Do the men you repre" sent share your views with regard to the employment of foreign labour?—The feeling amongst our men is growing from day to day against the employment of foreign labour as foreign labour. 2300S. Naturally they object to seeing themselves deprived of work when foreigners are being employed ?— Yes. 23009. They take a less moderate view of the position than you would ?—Yes. 23010. Then with regard to Lord James's question about Englishmen employed abroad, is there any place that you are aware of abroad where Englishmen are employed in gangs in this way, in one locality 1—There is no place that I know7 of. 23011. Certainly not in Lithuania 1—No, there is no employment of that kind that would suit an Englishman, as far as I know. 23012. Your view is, I understand, that the English workman employed abroad is employed for some specific purpose for which there is not a local man suitable?—I take it that the Englishman, who is employed abroad is employed there because, he is skilled in some certain thing. 23013. (Chairman.) The cotton factories in Russia, for instance—skilled persons go from here to work there ? —Yes. 23014. (Major Evans Gordon.) You say in your state- ment, " Such greeners are sweated." Can you tell us what you mean by sweated % It has been much discussed before as to what sweating is. What do you call sweating ?— What I cail sweating is that a foreign workman who may have been one, twTo, or three years in the Scottish mines, will send over to some other persons in Lithuania and will bring one or two of these workmen here. They have never earned high wages at home, any more than 12s. or 13s. a week. They are engaged by this man, whe receives on their behalf 4s. or 5s. a day for each of these workmen. He pays them 2s. 6d. or 2s. a day at the end of the wTeek, and collars the balance. They cannot complain to us. He makes them members of our Union in order to get the protection of the Union, but they cannot complain to us for want of knowledge of our language. In two or three months they complain when they get to know7 a fewr w^ords of English, and they show the money which they have got for this week's work to the check weigher. Then he says : " You are not getting half enough or a third as much as the sweater is getting from us." 23015. (iChairman.) That is your application of the word "sweating," and your definition of it. It is really the defrauding of the workman by the middleman ?—Yes. 23016. (Chairman) That is scarcely a definition of sweating. (Adjourned for a short time.) Mr. David Gilmour, called in ; and examined. > •23017. (Major Evans Gordon.) I understand you are 23018. Ht>w many men do you represent ?—About jur n the General Secretary of the Lanarkshire Miners' Associa- 30,000. Gilmour. &ion 1 That is so. 23019. You say with regard to the figures given by "846 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mr. I). Mr. Lumsden that Mr. Lumsden was not authorised to GUrriour. speak for the Union ?—No. •18 May -1903. . . .23020. And the figures he gave do-not represent all - ■ ".....the aliens, working ; in the district, in Lanarkshire?— By no means, , 23021. They only represent those working in cue district of.that centre ?—Jnist so. ' 23022. Can you add to the figures we have already got ?—I ,haYe.vtibulated the figures that Mr.. Smillie ha$ already gone over, and I find- the aliens are employed in practically eight places in the county. ,,23Q23. Eight; districts representing how many mines ? r-Eigh;t districts representing probably about-fifty mines within that county. •23024. {Sir• Kenelm Digby.) Are they employed in fifty mines •?—No; I should say there are altogether about 200 mines in Lanarkshire, and in about twenty of these mines only are foreigners employed. • 23025. {Major Evans Gordon.) What is the reason of their being employed in one mine and not in another ?— I-have tried to find out what the causes were, but it is very difficult. The reason in my judgment is that they are willing to work hard coal without getting paid corres- pondingly (high rates. Our own. countrymen, when a seam of coal goes into what we call a hard benn, claim higher rates to work that, so as to be able to earn the same wages. My. experience is that the foreigners work this hard coal at a reduction in the working rate and do not press the owners so much to pay higher rates. ' 23026. We have heard about the Polish notices and so forth being put up, and you say these people are peaceable, but quarrel amongst themselves ?-^Polish notices are not put up at all, not in.my experience. There is not a single colliery in which notices are written or posted up in any foreign language. 23027. Writh regard to the language question, you con- firm, generally speaking, what Mr. Smillie lias said ?— I do. "23028. Then with regard to their over-crowding, and so 911do you know anything, about that ?—At the present nioment tljere are three whole collieries and a half of a f6urth colliery, all of which are shut down evidently for want of trade. Through that we have at least 500 miners who have been driven directly idle, in addition to Which we compute that there are almost" as; many men seeking employment from time to time in various collieries in the county. • « • •• : 23029. They join the "Onions, but your contention is they accept a'lower wage than the Union wage ?—They accept the Union wage in my opinion simply because the Union is so strong, arid at the majority of collieries our men would refuse to work along with them unless they Were members. 23030. They join Unions, but they do not comply with the Unions' rules with regard to rates of wages ?— Tliey do not press for fair payment. , 23031. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) You have not said they do npt comply with the Union rules, but they do not piW> for. higher rates under special circumstances ?— They do. not press for higher rates, in order to make the same wage. . • • . .. > Z3Q32. '{MajO)' Evans Gordon.) The statement .in your e the hard Benn, and while it Mas in its ordinary working state he got 2s. a ton for working that coal, and was pro- ducing three tons per day, earning a wage of 6s. Through the hardness of the coal he might only be able to produce two tons, and therefore if he did not get an advance in his rates he would be only earning 4s. a day. Our men refused to work under those conditions, and we naturally supported them to try to get their rates advanced to a point that the men might be able to earn the same wages. Foreigners are brought into these places in my experience and are only paid the common tonnage rate. They are quite .willing to work away and earn 4s. a day as agaiinst the 6s. required by our own.countrymen. 23040. Though the coal is harder to get they work at the same rate as if it was easy to get?—As a rule. 23041. Have you any other point you wish to bring out?—I should like to refer to the evidence given by Mr. Baird, in which he says that the Poles were first introduce*! on account of the scarcity of that class of labour. Now\. I think it is right that I should correct'that statement. The Poles were introduced by a large firm in Lanarkshire,, called Murray and Cunningham. They were introduced" in the first place into furnaces in which there was a strike- going on. The men struck work for an advance in wages, they wanted 18s. a week. Poles were brought across at that time and employed at 12s. a week to do the surface labour at the furnaces, and gradually from that, those Poles, after settling down, sent for some oCtheir friends and they have since that time drifted into the coal mines. 23042. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) What year was that?—I should think it would be about 15 years ago. In all my experience in Lanarkshire, and I have been there 15 years-, working at all occupations underground, and as eheck weighman and miner's agent, I do not remember any occasion in which there was any scarcity of'native labour.. 23043. .{Major Evans Gordon). Would you say that the number of foreigners* whatever they are, who are employed 1,300 or 1,400, are displacing an equal number of Scottish working men?—It is so. " In our county the working- arrangement; ha^ been one of five days per week. One of the reasons for adopting that working arrangement wa& the fact that the men were not getting anything like steady employment. They would probably be . going to> the pit six days a week and only getting .three days" work, with the'result that to spread the trade uniformly over the whole of the collieries the men adopted the observance of. a weekly idle day. When trade imploved, and while the boom was on, our men agreed, because of the demand for coal, to work an extra day per fortnight, making 11 days per fortnight. That continued while the necessity existed, but when trade began to go back they found that employment was getting irregular and they again reverted to the five days' policy, so that they are- able at the present moment to produce a great deal more coal than the market can take away. ;5| 23044. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) You do not mean to say that the practice of colliers working only five days a weekMINUTES OF EVIDENCE 847 is.due to the aliens'?—No, I said it was in order to spread; &he labour over all the collieries. 23045, But I want the connection. It is the practice in Scotland, 'and as far as I know elsewhere in England, for ^colliers to work not more than five 'days a week, except ?in times of great pressure ?^In very few places in England is there any recognised five days' working a week. ,23046. (Chairman.) But the practice is they do not get «beyonct five days, ;a week in some places?—Sometimes it ; is veryjmuch less. 23047. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Five days a week is very ^good employment?—Yes. 23048: In .Scotland, you say, when the boom-, was on 'they sometimes worked six days?—They did in the county I represent. 23049. That is not common, is it? It is only oil ^exceptional occasions they, do that?—Lanarkshire is the only county in Scotland where a five day week is observed. In the other districts they work 11 days a fortnight or ^hey go to the pit . 11 days a fortnight. They do not recognise any fixed holiday. 23050. I do not . see what the connection of that is "with the question of the introduction of aliens. Do you mean to say if the aliens were not there they would work ^universally six days a week?—They certainly would con- sider that. 23051. Would they work six days■ a week if the aliens •were not there?—The very fact that they did when trade "was brisk seems to show that. 23052. You are an experienced man. Would you tell, me they would work six days a week if the aliens were not there?—I would very frankly say the feeling of the miners as very strong on having a weekly holiday. 23053. (Chairman.) Especially if there is a good foot- ball club there?—In some districts their holidays are in the middle of the week. 23054. But very often the holiday is on Saturday?— Saturday is almost the universal rule. 23055. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) What do you say about pressing for higher rates? Does that apply to the Tannoch £>ide dispute?—Not in that case. I have referred to cases ^wherein the same coal, through certain working conditions, at became very hard to get. Our own countrymen then •claim a higher tonnage rate in order to earn the same "wage, but the foreigner as a rule, our experience is, is prepared to work under almost any conditions for lower . wages. 23056. You have put it only under these conditions, but would you say generally that he is prepared to work for,lower wages?—In circumstances of that kind I believe lie is. 23057. In how m$iay casqs.h9.ve..youknown; of simile . ifcfr. M . i - disputes arising to that which arose at Tannoch Side?— ' Gilrnmnv I refer to one, a firm that has been mentioned here by • , -- Mr. Baird—William Baird and Company, a very large, firm. One of the managers there, at Craighead Colliery, himself told me personally that his reason for employing,, so many Poles was the fact that our own men gave him too much trouble regarding rates. 23058. That question of getting coal under difficulties is not an uncommon source of dispute?—Not uncommon. Then there is one remark that I would like; to make on 7 a subject Mr. Smillie mentioned, but did not clear up exactly. It refers to the dispute at Tannoch Side Colliery, As reported here it is said that the matter was brought" before the Miners' Federation of Great Britain to sanction a stoppage of the collieries owned by that firm. , I might say, it was only after we had practically decided, to stop" those collieries that that reduction of rates was withdrawn. 23059. (Major Evans Gordon.) You gained your point ' there by threatening to come out?—Yes. Then there is another thing I should like to mention on the point of the/foreigner being quite as capable of looking after him- self as the native worker. Several cases in my experience have arisen in which the foreigners have been put out of the collieries by the colliery companies themselves, on the score of danger, and not being able to look after themselves. I can give you one case in point, it can be proved—Cadzow Colliery, the managing director of which is the treasurer of the Scottish Mine-owners' Defence Association. I live within 200 or 300 yards ,of that colliery, and what I am saying is absolutely correct. When in one case an accident took place to two or three Polish miners, instructions : were issued that no foreigners were to be further employed in that colliery. There had been repeated cases of that kind, and I may say, after the dispute about rates at the.. . Tannoch Side Colliery, Mr. Russell's firn^ have taken up a similar position. Within the . last 10 days there was a very serious accident prevented almost miraculously. They discovered that one of the foreign workers in going, on the cage to be taken down, not having been in a mine before, had caught hold of the fixed slide in the shaft down which the cage winds. He was holding on to that very rigidly, when the word had been given to lower the cage, and the owner noticed it at the last moment. Supposing'" he had held on, the probability is that- he would have lost his hold and been killed,- and it would have resulted in some of the other men who were on the cage being killed also. 23060. Now they have taken the step of excluding foreigners altogether in that mine?—My information is that at that _ colliery foreigners have been entirely withdrawn. 23061. That is Tannoch Side?—Yes. Mr. William John Charles Moens, 23062 {Chairman.) I believe you are now the Vice- President and ex-President of the Huguenot Society of London?—,Yes. 1 r '' ^23063. Your name, I believe, shows you are of Huguenot' descent?—Yes, that is so—Dutch Huguenot descent. 23064. You have written several works in relation to the aliens who have migrated-into this country?—Yes, I have .written several works ; '' 'The Walloons arid their CJhurch at Norwich," and I am now writing " The Dutch and their Church at Colchester," and I have edited two volumes of the Registers of the Threadneedle.Street French Church, and other works. 23065. You have made the existence of foreigners in this country a matter of great interest to yourself?—Gener- ally ; I have been a Fellow of the Society of ■'Antiquaries* and taken a great interest in these things, and have studied the® question rather closely. 23066. You have been good enough to put a paper into my hands which I have just seen, and I will endeavour to summarise it a little. You have divided the existence of the. aliens-in England into two periods ; before the Reformation and afterwards?—Yes. Those before the Reformation came to England'for trade purposes generally. "During the time of Edward III, a great number came over from Hainault, Queen Philippa's fellow countrymen, and Introduced the trade of weaving, and I think Worsted • f.s.a., called in ; and Examined. near Norwich, is called Worsted because it was first made Mr. W. J. C there. Moens, F.s.A 23067. We will keep to the pre-Reformation period., ' Of what race were the aliens who came here principally?—4 Before the Reformation, Low Countrymen. from the Netherlands. ■ * 23068. Only?^-I should say only. A very few French ^ might have come, and naturally there would be an Italian or two, a Genoese, or Venetian, because they traded ; to England. 23069. What trades did they principally devote them- selves to?—Before the Reformation, I should say weaving, chiefly. 23070. Did these men from Genoa and Lombardy ... bring to us general ideas of commerce?—Yes, they would bring banking, the Lombards particularly. I think Lombard Street is named after them ; and bills of ex- change ; the principles of trade generally. 23071. But as regards manufacture you confine it principally to weaving?—Yes, they went to Pembroke- shire and elsewhere. There was a large settlement in Pembrokeshire in South Wales: where the weavers, were, and also some in Northampton as well as Norwich. 23072. This is all the pre-Reformation period?—Yes. 23073. Have you any record of the number of aliens848 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION ; Mr. W. J. G. before the Reformation—about?—I think we have proba- Jtfoens, f.s.a. bly some lists in the time of Henry VII, but I do not think 1 J-fj.—~ « there was any system of taking the number of aliens 18? May 1903. before ^ Reformation 23074. You have a considerable list of numbers in your paper. Are they all subsequent to the Reforma- tion ?—Yes. 23075. We will come to those numbers afterwards. Did these aliens who came by degrees become blended in the native population?—Yes. Of course they were all Roman Catholics then and their religion was the same as our religion, and there was no reason why they should not blend very easily. 23076. Now, after the Reformation : those who came as you say before had come principally for trade ; what were the causes that brought the aliens here after the Reformation?—They came on account of religion in order to avoid persecution and death on account of their being members of the Reformed Church. 23077. The Inquisition was at work?—First of all the Placards in the time of Charles the Fifth ; and then after- wards the Inquisition was introduced in the Low Countries, and they were denied the use of the Bible by the Congress of Bishops at Lou vain. 23078. Was the result of that that during the 39 years of Henry the Eighth's reign a considerable number of aliens came to this country and settled?—Yes, in the time of the Emperor Charles the Fifth a great number came. 23079. An increased number, I believe, came in the time of our King Edward the Sixth?—Yes, an increased ' number came then, and in the time of Edward the Sixth great favour was shown them. They were allowed by letters patent the Church of Austin Friars, with their own Superintendent, and they were allowed to be a cor- porate and politic body. 23080. During the reign of Queen Mary, a Roman Catholic, there was suspension of their coming?—Not only suspension of their coming, but dispersion. They left the country in vessels and went to Sweden. 23081. Then there was a return under Elizabeth?— There was a return under Elizabeth with increased numbers. 23082. What countries did these people come from between the reigns of Henry the Eighth and Elizabeth?— These immigrants came chiefly from Flanders, Brabant (a few came from the Land of Cleves), and Hainault. 23083. You say they came from France in some numbers ?—Yes, in some numbers. 23084. Were these principally Protestants ?—As a rule they were all Protestants. 23085. What trade would they follow ?—They followed weaving to a very great extent, baize, silk fabrics, and a quantity of new linen and new fabrics, which they called "New and outlandish goods." 23086. You are speaking now of the time of Elizabeth ? —Yes. 23087. Will you give me the exact date or the Revoca- tion of the Edict of Nantes ?—1685. 23088. When these aliens came (we are still keeping to the period up to the reign of Elizabeth), where did they principally settle ?—They landed in Yarmouth and Sandwich, but they came through to London to a very great extent, and they filled London up, so much so that it was necessary, to relieve London, for permission to be given to them to go to various towns. 23089. You give us certain figures as to the population of London and the number of aliens in 1540. Where do you get that return from ?—We get the return from the subsidy rolls. 23090. What was the subsidy ?—The subsidy was the tax on property — on land and personal property — goods. 23091. Was it a subsidy for war ?—-It was a subsidy to the Crown granted by Act of Parliament. 23092. In 1540, taking the subsidy rolls-of V in try, Dowgate, Candlewick Street, and Billingsgate Wards, what was the proportion of foreigners in those wards ?— About one-third of the taxpaj ers. 23093. One-third of the whole population ?—Yes, those paying taxes. In Yintry, Dowgate, Candlewick Street, and Billingsgate Wards in 1540 one-third of those paying subsidy were foreigners. The subsidy rolls-; are made out very carefully ; every name is given, ana all the aliens are marked. The aliens paid double the- subsidy, and those without goods paid poll-tax. 23094. In Tower and Baynard Castle Wards, how many were aliens ?—One-half. 23095. And in Aldgate, Langbourne, Aldersgate, and' Farringdon Without Wards, what was the proportion V —A very large proportion of those paying subsidies were- foreigners. 23096. I suppose these wards would represent a greafc portion of the City of London ?—Yes, a considerable portion. 23097. Nearly all these wards exist now, do they not T —Yes, they all exist now. 23098. x\nd in the precincts of St. Martin's le Grande how many were there ?—In the precincts of St. Martin's le Grand there were six English to 204 strangers. It was a sort of sanctuary, a liberty, connected with the religious;, house ; and after the religious houses were done away with, the liberty was allowed to remain. 23099. This proportion seems very great ?—It is very great. They went there to be outside the law ; therefore- I may take it that those 204 were strangers, and they were so described. 23100. With regard to Langbourne, Aldgate, and A Icier b- gate; you have given us the proportions of persons from, the subsidy roll. Would that represent the whole popu lation, or the proportion of the population, so that we may" suppose that in all these wards the proportion of the wholes population, as you have given it, would be the same as the- taxable population ?—I can hardly say that, because those not paying taxes would not be in the returns, while- the aliens paying taxes would be in the returns, as well as those paying poll-tax. 23101. Would it be the head of the household who would be in the returns ?—Yes. 23102. Then, so far as the heads of households go, you> believe these proportions are correct ?—These proportions- are undoubtedly correct, because they are strict returns. 23103. In Whitefriars, Catherine Wheel Alley, and Shoe Lane, what is the proportion there ?—They were nearly entirely inhabited by the aliens. 23104. Taking the whole subsidy returns in this year* which is 1540, what was the whole proportion of the- alien population ?—One-third of the whole taxpaying population of London. 23105. Would that include the 'City only ?—No, J think not. It would include the whoie of London., Probably that return being put " London " would be a return for the City of London. 23106. For the City it would be one-third ?—Yes. 23107. Have you any return of the proportion of handi- craftsmen ?—The masters all worked'at their trades, anyith 16 other Dutchmen, besides fcomea Venetians and other Italians. In the liberty of Cliristchurch, Jan van Lbur, merchant, rented a house ^nd. Jived tfr££$ with 43 other Dutchmen.' '—There are very iftanj cases Mjte that which you can pick out of the returns. Of bourse, tie houses were very small then, and they were packed very closely indeed. 23189. Did living there consist absolutely of living there by day and by night ?—Besiding there and stopping there, and probably working there. 23190. How was the pressure of these aliens dealt with ? —It was dealt with in the most perfect way. The elders and deacon^ of their churches divided the cities &nd towns where they dwelt into districts, which were placed under the charge of the elders and deacons. 23191. Were they dealt with first by our authorities 1 —No, quite the reverse.; they had to pay English poor rates, and did not benefit at all by it. 23192. That was the Act of Henry VIII. That was the Act of Henry VIII. : 23193. It will suffice for you to say that the support of the alien poor was cast .upon the alien community ?—- Ye^Sjj and they did so very largely. All the accounts are existing now of the receipts and expenditure. 23194. I think I have extracted the principal things from your paper that I wish to put on the notes. Is there anything else you yourself would like to suggest ?—I should make the suggestion with due deference that the poor ones were dealt with most satisfactorily by the poll tax, which was 8d. a head on all over twelve years of age, which is equal now probably to a sum of 2s. 6d., and if a poll tax could be put upon those who pay no, rates and no taxes, it would be doing something towards the payment for the benefits they receive, and also the advantage would be that you would be getting at their numbers, and pro- bably at theiir names: At present, I believe, there is no control over the aliens on account of all the Alien Acts having been repealed as lately as 1863. 23195. What was the repealing Act ?--The Statute Law Revision Act of 1863, I think, sets it all out. 33iL96. (Mr. Vallance.) You deduce from the- subsidy returns the fact that one-third of the population of London were aliens ?—One-third of the tax-paying population, 253197. Did these subsidy returns apply to the strangers only ?—No ; they applied to the whole population, so Mr. IV. J. C. that you have got the proportion exactly. Moms, f.s.c. 23198. Then your, proportion will be accurate, although is May 19Q3. you are unable, to* give the actual proportion of London —*— as it was at that time Yes. 2&199. Then you refer to the licence which the Privy Council issued, and an agreement with the town authori- ties for the strangers to inhabit in restricted numbers Various large towns ?—Yes. 23200. Then there was a measure of restriction placed upon them ?—Yes,; they began, gently. The authorities of the town said they would take so many householders, which included, of course, their families and their work- people, and then the Privy1 Council came to an agreement with them for that number, and afterwards they were found sb beneficial to the town that that was allowed to lapse, and the strangers came in in very large numbers. 23201. Then it was subsequently that it was directed that all aliens in London should be certified weekly ?— It was projected, but I do not believe that that was carried into effectj because in the same year the instructions were given to the Archbishop to get in the list of the aliens in every parish in England. 23202. Do I understand that you would be in favour of a p6ll tax being levied on the aliens ?—Certainly, I should very much like to see a poll tax levied. 23203. You speak of a poll tax levied on those who pay no rates ■?—Yes. 23204. What would you mean by that ?—The families of householders, each of them, paid a poll tax. The alien householder, even in the old days, paid the rates if he occupied a house, and his family would all pay a poll tax. 23205. (Chairman.) Would you make the native do* this, or only the alien ?—The alien. 23206. Because he is an alien ?—Yes, and because he gets the benefit in this country without paying anything: towards it. 23207. He pays indirect taxation ?—If he drinks and if he smokes. 23208. He pays exactly the same as Englishmen. He- is not exempted from everything ?—That is so. 23209. (Mr. Vallance.) Do you speak of a poll tax on every individual regardless of age ?—No, over 12 years; old. •? ' - FORTY-NINTH DAY. Thursday, 21 st Map, 1903. present: The Bight Hon. Lord James of Hereford (Chairman). The Bight Hon. Lord Bothschild. Hon. Alfred E. Lyttelton, k.c., m.p. Sir Kenelm E. Digby, k.c.b. Major W. E. Evans Gordon, m.p William Vallance, Esq. Major E. G. Clayton, r.e., called^ and Examined. 23210. (Sir Kenelm Digby). You are Secretary to the Prison Commission?—Yes. 23211. Were you formerly the Governor of Lewes and Wormwood Scrubs Prisons?—Yes. 23212. You have had in your office certain tables drawn up, which the Commission have been supplied with, with a view to showing the amount and characteris- tics of alien crime?—Yes. 23213. First of all, before we come to the figures how do you ascertain whether a prisoner is an alien or not?— Only by his own statement. 23214. That is taken in every case?—That is taken in almost every case. 23215. On his reception?—On his reception. 6144. 23216. There is a form in which it is entered?—Yes, it Major E. G< is entered in a book. * Clayton, r.eV 23217. You only count as aliens those who are born 9T M 10m out of the British Dominions?—Yes, the birthplace is _._ taken. 23218. If they are born out of England they are put down as aliens?—Yes. 23219. In these returns I see you have grouped to- gether Metropolitan prisons on the one hand and pro- vincial prisons on the other, and given the figures sepa- rately for each?—Yes. 23220. You do not include the convict prisons?—No, •they are not included in these tables—Dartmoor, Port- land, Borstal, Parkhurst, and Aylesbury. 5 p 2BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGKATION: ,^j23221, If. you had included those you would have teiE* counted the people twice over2-^Yes, ^May MOSv 23222. Because all prisoners go through a stage of imprisonment ill local prisons and are Gounted there, and, therefore, it is not necessary to count them again when they, go to convict prisons 2—No, they are all committed first to local prisons. 23223, Therefore this first table of yours shows practical figures relating to prisoners who have been admitted to prisons in the last five years from 1899 to .1903 2—It shows tlie number of prisoners convicted, not those com- mitted on remand, or for trial. 23;224v Now we can go to the tables. First as to the total n\imber, I see in metropolitan prisons, taking the figures from 1899 to 1903, you have a tptal of 1,143 males and females in 1899, which had increased in 1903 to 1,915 1 —Yes. 2,3225. {Chairman.) Are these all prisoners 2—These are all convicted prisoners, 23226. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is made up of 1,011 males and 132 females in 1899, and in 1903 1,598 males and 317 females for the Metropolis 2—Yes* 23227. If you add the provincial and take the total of metropolitan and provincial prisoners who are alien you find they have risen from 2,181 in 1899 to 3,449 in 1903 2 —Yes. 23228. (Chairman.) What do provincial prisoners mean 2—They are received in provincial prisons. 23229. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Were these the whole con- victions in the United Kingdom 2—Only aliens. 23230. Then the total number in these five years, which is the figure that runs throughout the table, is 13,114 1 —Yes. (Chairman.) Will you take the years to show the increase is gradual 2 23231. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) 2,181 in 1899, 2,139 in 1900, 2,465 in 1901, 2,880 in 1902, and in 1903—because you take each year down to the 31st March—3,449 2— Yes. ' 1 23232, We need not go through the individual years, because there is a, similar increase in the several years, but, taking the total of those 13,114, 449 males were convicted at assizes 2- 23233. (Chairman.) I do not think it will be necessary to go into the differences between the Assizes and Quarter Sessions. What does the column " Summary Jnrisdiction'! mean 2—They are all committed from courts of first instance. 23234. Imprisonment 2—Yes. 23235. But they are not included in your first column 2 —Oh, yes. 23236. Do you mean to say that out of the 2,181 in 1899, 1,933 were convictions by courts of summary juris- diction 2—1,933 were summary convictions. 23237. Take the summary convictions and deduct those from the main convictions. The summary con- victions are indicative of offences tried summarily under the Summary Jurisdiction Act, and for offences such as obstruction and so on, and cases wrhere the courts of sum- mary jurisdiction have exclusive jurisdiction 2—Yes. 23238. And, as one knows the vast mass of imprison- ment is imprisonment inflicted by courts of summary jurisdiction 2—Yes, the vast mass of it is under fourteen days' imprisonment. The total number of convictions is *6,024 in the Metropolis for those five years. J.' 23239. Take the year 1899. Your total convictions were 2,181, of which 1,933 were summary convictions 2 ' —Yes- - 23240. That leaves 248 for convictions other than sum- mary ?—Yes. 23241. By the same process in the year 1900 there were 257 other than summary 2—Yes. 23242. In 1901 there were 283 other than summary 2 -Yes. 23243. In 1902 there were 340 other than summarv 2 ■ —Yes. 23244. And in 1903 there were 386 other than summary 2 —Yes. 23245. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Gould you tell at all whether those proportions correspond fairly with the total number of prisoners, including natives as well as aliens 2 The proportion of alien is about; two to one, 23246. (Chairman.) Would it be convenient for you to give us the total number of convictions, natives and aliens together 2—I have not got that figure here, but I can get it easily enough. 23247. Would you furnish us with the convictions for the graver crimes and the summary convictions too 2 —I have got the proportion of the convicted prisoners to the general prison population here. 23248. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Then there were some per- centages which you have taken out of alien prisoners to the total number of convicted prisoners received in each of the five years. They are as follows In 1899, 1*36 per cent.; in 1900, 1*39 per cent.; in 1901, 1*66 per cent. ; in 1902, 1*72 per cent. ; and in 1903, 1*98 per cent. 2—Yes, 23249. (Chairman.) I see that in the year ending March, 1903, there is a much greater jump than there is in any other year, and, of course, the percentage is very much higher. Was there anything exceptional that you know of in that year 2—No. The percentage is high, but the number of prisoner^ altogether in that year is high. 23250. You do not know what class of prisoners they were 2—No; we have not yet gone into the returns up to the 31st March closely. 23251. You would not know from general observation whether it was a class coming from any particular region or whether it was a class committing any particular crime ike that of coiners* or burglars 2—No. We have given particulars in the returns, but we know nothing more than that. 23252. You have no exceptional information .S—No ; we have had to delay our statistical returns in order to get these returns out. 23253. (Mr. Vatlance.) These figures do not include the defendants who have been convicted and a penalty only imposed ?--No ; only those who have gone to prison. 23254. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You do not get them returned till they get into prison 2—No. 23255. Your next table shows the nationality of the alien prisoners indicated by the birthplace 2—Yes. 23256. I think we need only call attention to the principal ones. In 1899 there were 234 male Germans committed to prisons in the Metropolis and 48 females, and 127 males and 13 females in the provinces 2—Yes. 23257. The corresponding figures in 1900 (I may leave out females, because the females diminish rather than increase), the males were 219 in the Metropolis and 109 in the provinces. In 1901 there were 209 males in the Metropolis and 136 in the provinces. In 1902 there were 291 males in the Metropolis and 191 males in the pro- vinces ; and in 1903 there were 371 males in the Metropolis (showing a very large rise that year in the Metropolis), and 211 in the provinces 2—Yes. 23258. (Chairman.) I should very much like to have the difference here between the number of those convicted on indictment and those convicted on summary conviction. A man may be convicted for wheeling a wheelbarrow, and another may be convicted of a murderous attack or burglary 2—We have not got that figure as regards nationalities. 23259. I do not know whether you have that informa- tion or not 2—We can get it by going through all the returns again. 23260. May we take it that it is somewhat in the same proportion as nationality in the general returns 2—I should think so—almost the same proportion. 23261. At all events, approximately 2—Approximately, at any rate. 23262. (Lord Rothschild) There is a higher percentage oi Americans than any other nation 2—Yes, more people born in America. 23263. Take Russians and Poles, the females have increased from 10 in 1899 to 67 in 1903 2—Yes, in the Metropolis. 23264. And Germans have increased from 48 to 103.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 853 Have you any reason to give for this increase ?—No, :none ; we do not know of any cause for it* 23265, (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You only give the facts ?— "Yes. 23266. If we have the table put in it will, probably do .to take it from 1899 to 1903. Then the male Russians jand Poles in the Metropolis were in 1899 192, and in the provinces 103. In 19,03 in the Metropolis there were 409, and in the provinces 182 ?—Yes, That is the largest ^increase of any nation. (Chairman.) I■ think, Major Gordon, you would agree ;tha^ there is a larger increase of immigration among the Riis^iansr{and Poles, than any other nationality ? (MajofEvans Gordon») Yes, that is so. ' 23267. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Then Italians. The females .are not' worth mentioning, because there is no substantial change; but the iiial.es have increased from 130 in the Metropolis iri 1899 to 201 in the Metropolis in 1903 ; and in the provinces the increase is trifling ?—Yes. ; 232fe8. Then the Americans include those from the tinit^d States, and the Republics of Central America .and South America, including the whole Continent of America, except Canada ?—Yes. 23269. There were 189 males in the Metropolis in 1899 and 187 in the Metropolis in 1903, and in the provinces they have increased from 325 in 1899 to 420 in 1903 ?— Yes. ' 2327Q, (Chairman.) If you look not only at the Russians •and Poles, but at the Germans and French, the number of prisoners is much greater in the Metropolitan prisons »than in the provincial ?—Yes. 23271, Now please turn to America. You see it is imore than double in the provinces compared with the Metropolitan prisons. What is the cause of the Americans prevailing so largely in the provincial prisons ?—I fancy ;a great many of • those come from Liverpool, where the Americans\land t from America. 23272., Dotes the criminal American stop there ?—No, I do not think he stops there. We have no particulars of vthat. sort from the prisons. - 23273. I do not want to give unnecessary trouble, fbut it would throw a little light on this matter if we could have the difference between the summary convictions and the indictable offences. However, the Americans .seem .toire^uent the provincial prisons much more than any other nation and you see that with regard to the Russians and Poles, where you get in 1903 40$ for the Metropolis and 182 for the provinces, you get 187 Ameri- cans for the Metropolis in 1903 and 420 Americans for ■the provinces. It isva most remarkable difference ?—Yes. 23274J (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You could get a special Return ; from Liverpool ?—Yes. 23275. You probably have got that in making up the figures ?^-No, we have not got it. 232761 Now we can summarise this table Taking the 13,114, the1 total figure for the five years, 23 per cent, were Americans ?—That should be 23J. I have corrected it. 23277. Nineteen per cent, were Germans, 17 per cent, were Russians and Poles, 11 per cent, were Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes, 9 per cent, were Italians, 9 per cent, were French, and the others were so small that we need •not notice them ?—No. 23278- (Major Evans Gordon.) I understand that the increase of crime among Russians and Poles in the five years 1899 to 1903 is 117 per cent. ?—That is so. 23279. That either points to an enormous increase in 'the population tff that particular nationality or to a very heavy increase in the proportion of criminals in that population ?—Yes, either one or the other. 23280. It comes out strongly as you put it; but had you not better give the percentage of increase from the ^others. As against 117 per cent., which is the increase among Russians and Poles, there is an increase of 67 per *cent. among the Germans and 78 per cent, among the Norwegians and Danes ; an increase of 58 per cent, among tfche French ; an increase of 86 per cent, among the Austriaris ; 45 per cent, increase among the Italians ; 40 per cent, increase among the Swiss; 25 per cent, increase among the Americans ; 85 per cent, increase ' 'among the Spaniards; and 44 per cent, among the Belgians. These percentages refer to the increase in Major the criminals ?—Yes. ; Clayton, . p&>E. 23281. (Major Evans Gordon.) You have no returns 21 May 1903. showing the percentage of alien crime to alien population, ——— have you?—No, we do not know anything about alien population. 23282. But you would have the percentage of native crime to native population?—Yes 23283. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Lord James is going to ask you about the proportion of metropolitan prisoners to the alien population in the Metropolis. Does the population of the Metropolitan prisoners fully represent the Metropolitan crime, or do you send prisoners from the Metropolis into local prisons'?—We send them occa- sionally to local prisons. 23284. Do you send them in any quantities which would at all vitiate any percentage of that kind?—No, I do not think so. 23285. You may take the Metropolitan prison as a fair index to Metropolitan crime?—Yes, I think so ; they do overflow. 23286. (Chairman.) We may take it that in the year 1901 the Census Returns of Russians and Poles in London were 53,537?—Yes. ! - 23287. That covers one of your years. The Germans here were 27,427 ; that is as nearly as possible half. Now take 1901. The Russian and Polish prisoners in the Metropolis were 289, and the Germans were exactly the same number. Those figures speak for themselves, and it is very singular they are exactly 289 in the Metro- polis in each case. Now the French, according to the Census, were 11,204, and the number of prisoners in the Metropolis were 123. The Italians by the Census were 10,889, and their number of prisoners was 193. I am afraid organ grinders would pobably come in there a good deal?—Yes, it is more than probable. 23288. The Americans according to the Census were 5,561, jand they come out in these Prison Returns at 184. The Austrians according to the Census were 6,189, and they come out in these Prison Returns at 57. That is only approximate, and that is subject to the Summary Conviction question?—57 is the exact figure. 23289. According to the Census Table, the population of the United Kingdom was 41,500,000, and there were 282,000 aliens, giving a total percentage of 0*68 of aliens? —That is so. 23290. According to the Census Returns the alien proportion to the population had increased from 0*58 in the Census of 1891 to 0*68 in the Census of 1901?—Yes. 23291. Had it increased one-tenth per cent, in the 10 years, subject to what has been ■ said, that there was greater care taken in the last Census than in the former one?—Yes. 23292. (Major Evans Gordon.) In that year that you specify, while the percentage of fdreign population was 0*68, the percentage of foreign crime was 1*66 ?-- (Chairman.) I think you have got it on the first Table. 23293. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is the prisoners convicted. Now we come to the Table of offences. of which they were convicted, jand we take the same figures as before as to the total number of aliens, and you divide the offences according to their recognised classification? —Yes. . 23294. " Offences against the person, offences against property with violence, offences against property without violence, malicious injuries to property, forgery and offences against the coinage, and other offences not included in the foregoing clauses." Taking the leading figures you find that under the head of offences against the person in the Metropolis in 1899, there was a total of 184 ; and in the provinces a total of 151, making a total ot 335 ; and in 1903 there were 216 in the Metropolis and 185 in the provinces, making a total of 401. Then offences against property with violence are small in number, but there is a very considerable increase. . They have increased from 11 in the Metropolis in 1899 to 58 in 1903. In the provinces there were 21 in 1899, and they had increased to 31 in 1903. There was a total increase, both Metropolis and provinces, from 32 in 1899 to 89 in 1903. Then offences against property without violence, 252 in 1899 ; and they had increasedTOYAL COMMISSION OH ALIEN IMMIGBATIOX fey 1 G, to in 1903. In the pro> xii-ies there were 201 in ffiqytwi, r.eJ.1899, which had increased to 276-in 1903; the'total Jbeingsan increa.se frolp 453 in 1899 to 645 in 1903?—Yes. - 23295, Then malicious injuries to property- may be left out of the Table as it is a very small figure. Then forgery and offences against the coinage are very small, $xqept there is an increase from 5 to 21 ; but that I suppose would be because of the Bank forgeries?—Yes, in the Metropolis. 23296. {Chairman.) Would coining come in in offences ^gainst property?—No.. , 23297; (Sir Kenelm.Digby.) Now you deal with offences , ipot, included in the foregoing classes, and you specify -as an instance—drunkenness, disorderly, frequenting, hawking without a licence, indecency, keeping a brothel, ob^.cene language, vagrancy, etc.?—Yes. 23298. You have a rise from 567 in the Metropolis in 1899 to 941-in 1903 ; and from 565 in the provinces in 1899 to 904 in 1903. Then females from 109 in the Metropolis, to 280 ; and in the provinces from 75 in 1899, to 110 in 1903 ; the total rise being from 1,316, in the Metropolis and provinces combined, in 1899, to 2,235' in 1903?—Yes. 23299. Then perhaps we had better take the next Table, which shows the sentences imposed/ I will take th# part of the Table which deals with sentences of iMprisonment of three months and under. There were 183 males sentenced to three months and over one month in 1899, and 290 in the Metropolis in 1903 ; 112 ill the provinces in 1899, and 149 in 1903. The cor- responding figures of the females are respectively 16 and 31, arid 12 and 25?—Yes. 23300. Then take the next stage, which is one month down to 14 days. You have 175 males in the Metropolis in 1899, and 300 in 1903. You have 183 in the provinces iii 1899, and 258 in 1903. The females rose from 36 in the Metropolis in 1899, to 116 in 1903. In the provinces the corresponding figures are 24 and 30?—Yes. 23301. Now take the next figure of 14 days and under. , In 1899 there were 486 in the Metropolis, and in 1903 < there were 6p9. In the provinces there were 561 in 1899 and 886 in 1903. Now if you take the total number sentenced to imprisonment, there were 981 males in 1899 and 132 females in 1899, and in 1903 there were 1,548 males in the Metropolis and 316 females. In the orovinces in 1899 you have 923 males and 95 females, and in 1903 1,371 males and 147 females ?—Yes. 23302: Then between three months and one month the total of males and females is 1948 ?—Yes. 23303. And from one month to 14 days 2,639 %—Yes. 23304. Then the next is 14 days and under ?—Yes, 6,923. 23305. So that of the total of 13,114 more than half are sentences of 14 days and under ?—Yes. n 23306. (Chairman.) Do I gather there was only one prisoner sentenced to death ?—There were three sentenced to imprisonment during His Majesty's pleasure—lunatics, and-one to death. 23307. In all those years there was only one alien sentenced to death ?—Only one alien sentenced to death. 23308. (Major Evans Gordon.) I should like to get, very briefly, the more serious increase of more serious crime on the notes. I see that the penal servitude male Metro- polis cases have increased in the five years from 30 to 50 ? -r-Yes. ' 23309. (Chairman.) The provinces have decreased from 16 to 11 ?—Yes. 23310- (Major Evans Gordon.) Then we come to the 24 months and over 18 months, and they have increased from four to 14 in the same period ?—Yes, in the Metropolis. 23311. The sentences of 18 months to 15 months have increased from nine to 27 ?—Yes. 23312. These are males only ?—Yes. 23313. Then the sentences of 15 months|toVl2 months have decreased from 10 to 7 ?—Yes. 23314. The sentences of from 12 months to 9 months j^ave increased from 29 to 50?—Yes. 23315. The sentences of 9 months to 6 months have increased from 25 to 50 ?—Yes. 23316. And the sentences from 6 months to 3 months have increased from 60 to 111 ?—Yes. 23317. These are males only ?—Yes. {Chairman.) I think I gave the proportion of the alien population throughout the United Kingdom. I should" like to add that the proportion of alien population to total population in London was 2*98 per cent, in 1901. 23318. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The principal importance of this next table is so far as it affords any indication as to whether they are habitual criminals ?—There were 9,880 prisoners who had not been previously con- victed. There were 1,337 previously convicted once. 23319 (Chairman.) You have got the figures 9,8S0 prisoners first conviction ?—Not been previously .con* victed. There were 1,337 prisoners who had been pre- viously convicted once ; 525 had been convicted twice ; 285 had been convicted three times ; 215 had been con- victed four times ; 162 had been convicted five times ; 384 had been convicted from six to ten times ; 203 had been convicted from eleven to twenty times, and 129 above twenty times, 23320. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I do not know whether anything very much turns on their previous trades and occupation. That table may go on the note as it stands. I suppose With regard to that you take it from their own statement ?—Yes. 23321. I suppose that is not always reliable ?—A professed burglar very often calls himself a mechanic, and he is a mechanic too. 23322. (Major Evans Gordon.) With reference to that figure 0*68, that your Lordship gave, is that the percentage of the alien population for the United Kingdom ? (Chairman.) I think so—out of the 41 millions. 23323. (Major Evans Gordon..) These tables refer England and Wales, so that does not quite compare. (Chairman.) No ; You are quite right. It is not the same thing. 23324. (Major Evans Gordon.) There is just one point on the first column, dealing with the Assizes and Quarter^ Sessions cases. I observe that there has been an increase from 1899 to 1903 from 248 in 1899 to 3S6 in 1903, adding- the Assizes and Quarter Sessions cases ?—Yes. 23325. So the difference between 386 and 248 would- represent the increase ot serious crime ?—Yes. 23326. With regard to the nationality question, you recognise an alien only by his own statement ?—That is all. 23327. Therefore, if a man were to come and say his* name is Smith, and he is an Englishman, he would be accepted as such ?—Yes. He gives the place of his birth. 23328. That is he says he is born in England ?—Yes. 23329. Taking a man like Chapman, who was, I believe, a Catholic Pole of Warsaw ; if he gave the name of Chapman, and said he was born in England, you would say he was an Englishman ?—Yes. 23330. So there is always the possibility of these figures- being affected in that way ?—By falsehoods told by prisoners. We have no means of verifying them at all. 23331. (Chairman.) Supposing you detected a very strong accent, and the man could scarcely speak English in answering your questions ?—The governor would" certainly make inquiries in that case. He sees every prisoner the morning after his arrival. 23332. (Major Evans Gordon.) He still might say he was born in England. You would not go to the trouble of finding his birth certificate ?—No, we might enquire of the police. 23333 (Chairman.) Supposing he said that in German and not in English ?—Then we should put him down as a German. 23334. (Kenelm Digby.) Do you think they are fairly accurate in that respect ?—I think they are fairly accurate. 23335. (Mr. Lyttelton.) There is not much motive for telling an untruth ?—No. 23336. (Major Evans Gordon.) Is not there a tendency to say they are English ?—I have not had much to doMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. with them except on paper for some years now, but I never noticed any tendency when I was a governor my- self; 23337. (Mr. Vallance.) May I go back a moment to Table II. ? Am I right in saying that in the year 1903 there were 1,915 convicted prisoners ?—There were 1,915 convicted, alien prisoners in the Metropolis. .. 23338. And that of those 1,915, 476 were Russians and Poles ?—Yes; 23339. From those figures I deduce the fact, taking the foreign population, that 1*4 of the foreign population wi^^ccmvicteiJ prisonersj" and of the Russians and Poles it was 0*9. It is only fair to mention that, as there is a flood of immigration of Russians and Poles coming here.—Yes. (Chairman.) In 1903 the percentage of alien prisoners convicted was 1*98. (Mr. Vallance.) This is on the population. (Chairman.) Will you also put in the same figures with regard to the other prisoners—of all the prisoners •convicted, the alien percentage was 1*98. (Mr. Vallance.) My point rather was to test the crimi- nality bf the alien population, and as there is a considerable inflow of the. Russian and Polish aliens, one wants to see whether they have any criminal tendency. (Mr. Lyttelton.) What is the German percentage ? (Mr. Vallance) 1*7. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Then there is the uncertainty as to the character of the crime. 23340. (Major Evans Gordon.) Can you give us any- thing with regard to the cost of the maintenance of these foreign criminials in prisons?—We could, but it would be very difficult, because the cost of a convict is verf Clayfy>r^K-%* different from the cost of an ordinary prisoner. < —*•. 13341. There was a question put in the House of 21 ' Commons in which the figure was given as £30,000, or something like that, a year?—That was a figure given on those in custody on one day. We took a census one day, and the 30,000/. represent the approximate cost of carrying out the sentences of those in custody on that day. 23342. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) You calculated that, I suppose, on tile total cost of the prisons, including the salaries of Commissioners and everything else?—We counted the average cost of the prisoners, including the galaries of everybody. ; 23343. Something has been said about the increase in the synagogues in prisons by one witness. Will you tell us at what prisons there are synagogues?—There are only three synagogues in prisons in England—in Parkhursi, Wormwood Scrubs, and Pentonville. 23344. {Lord Rothschild.) There used to be more, were there not?—Not that I know of. There used to be one at Portsmouth before it was closed; 23345. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) Has there been any increase in the synagogues?—No, not at all. Wormwood Scrubs Prison Synagogue was built while I was there some years ago, but Mr. Emaiiuel, the Jewish visitor to Park- hurst, saw me about a fortnight ago, and he told me he thought it was possible that we should have to enlarge the synagogue at Parkhurst. (The Tables referred to by the Witness were handed in.— Vide Appendix, Mr. W. L. Calkin, called ; and Examined. 23346.r (Chairman.) You are the agent of the Libau ^hippihg Company?—My firm of Tegner, Price and Co. to the United States ?—No, it does not concern us at all. That would be a sub-contract with the emigration agent, 23380. (Major Evans Gordon.) Supposing there was a restrictive standard here regarding certain classes, and so on, would not the onus of requiring these people to come- up to/that standard ultimately rest oh the emigrant agent who embarks them at Libau ?—Yes. , 23381. He would be the man you would look to ?—He would be the man our company would look to to protect them. 23382. To see that those requirements are kept up ?— Yes. 23383. Two steamers come every week, do they not ?— No ; one steamer a week direct to London. There are besides steamers arriving every 14 daysvia Copenhagen, but these boats do not bring immigrants. 23384. You said some of these steamers do not go back to Libau. Where do they go to ?—They may go via another port. They do not necessarily go back to Libau. 23385. Most of the steamers, those chartered by Mr. Knie; do they journey to and fro pretty regularly ?— Yes. 23386. They bring eggs, and ponies, and butter .?— Yes, and with us it is of importance to get them here as quickly as possible. 23387. Through the Kiel Canal ?—That is so. 23388. (Chairman.) If you wish to present anything further to us, you can do it in writing ?—I will do so, my lord. Mr. Frederick William Chambers, called; and examined. Mr F. W. 23389. (Chairman.) Are you the Manager of the N ether- Chambers, lands Steamship Company ?—Yes. 23390. Their steamers run from Rotterdam to London ? •r-Yes. 23391. What class of the alien immigrants do you bring ?—Third class. 23392. What is their nationality ?—They are princi- pally Russians and Poles. We include }n our third-class passengers sailors and German bands and such people, but the bulk of these third-class passengers are immi- grants, and they consist principally of Russians and Poles.' •• 23393. Did you hear the questions put to the last witness, Mr. Calkin, and his answers ?•—Yes. 23394. Do you agree with what he said, or do you differ in any way ?—I agree to a certain extent. He would have more Russians and . Poles than we shpuld, because we have to bring them via Rotterdam. 23395. But as to the obligations to be cast upon the shipping companies as to taking back any persons, have you anything to say upon that ?—I should object to it to a certain extent. A man might have sufficient money when going on board at Rotterdam, but he might lose his money during the voyage. He might have it stolen; or lie might lose it by gambling or in some other way, and then on arrival in London we should have to take him back free of charge, and that would be hardly fait towards us. 23396. That is not quite the point, because the regula- tion might be that you should take certain precautions at . the port, and so forth He might have sufficient means when he left Rotterdam. 23397. Then you might fulfil your obligation* but if the •: man did not come up to the standard at the port of embarkation you would not have any objection then to • the obligation being cast on your shipping company of-' taking him back 2—We should not like to take them back free of charge because it would be a loss to us. 23398. But you have not fulfilled the obligation. You would have notice of that *2—But we should have fulfilled' our obligation at Rotterdam. 23399. You are going back to the old point, which is very exceptional. But with regard to the general rule, that you did not fulfil the standard as to the position and ' character of the man, have you anything to say why you should not take him back Then we should have to take him back free of charge. (Chairman.) That is the position that the last witness took. 23400. (Lord Rothschild) Supposing there were restric- tive measures, I suppose all trans-migrants who were going to America would not come to England, but they would take their passage by another line They would/ go direct from Rotterdam, probably. 23401. Can . you differentiate between those who you think are likely to do well here or do badly at the port of exit That is*impossible for me to say. I do not know / how many do go through to America or not.minutes of evidence. 857 23402. Can you discriminate who are likely to be good immigrants or bad immigrants at the port of exit 2— Th^it is difficult for me to say. I have seen these people very often when they arrive here. 23403. {Major Evans Gordon,.) The existence of a standard of any kind here would lead to your taking care as to the class of people you brought over, would it not'?— Yes, we should pay special attention to the class of people who were brought over on board our steamers. 23404. {Chairman.) Through your agent ?—By our own company in Rotterdam. 23405. {Mr. Lyttelton.) You have already some machinery for that now, have you not 2—We look after them as much as we possibly can. We should not take a Mr. F. W. man on board if he had any disease. Chambers. 23406. In the interests of the other passengers ?—Yes. 21 May 1903. 23407. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) Are they medically examined 1—No, but we pay as much attention as we possibly can to them. 23408. (Mr. Lyttelton.) As much as you can on the view 1—Yes. 23409. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) It is to your interest very strongly not to have any disease of that sort on the ship I - -Yes. It would not do the line any good. Mr. John Lithiby called in ; and Examined. 23410. (Chairma/n.) You are an Assistant Secretary of the Local Government Board, are you not %—Yes ; in charge of the Division which includes the Public Health Department. 23411. You are aware that we have had a considerable amount of evidence given before this Commission with regard to the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney %—Yes. 23412. Have any representations been made to the Local Government Board with regard to the question of overcrowding in Stepney ?—No special representations have been made to the Board, but attention has been called to the matter from time to time in the reports which are made by the Local Authority, copies of which are forwarded to the Local Government Board. The Com- mission have, 1 understand, taken evidence from Dr. Thomas, the Medical Officer of Health for the Borough, and, therefore, it will scarcely be necessary for me to sa> anything with regard to the contents of the reports which he has made prior to the year 1902. I may say generally, however, with regard to these reports, that they disclose facts showing that there has been a gradual increase of overcrowding, especially during recent years. I have here an abstract from the last report which Dr. Thomas is now making to the local authority. That is a report for 1902, a draft of which he has kindly supplied to the Board at my request. 23413. That is a report not yet made, but in anticipation of which Dr. Thomas has sent to the representative of the Local Government Board a copy of the report. It con- tains his views, and it may be that the members of the Commission would like to ask some question upon them. I do not know what the members of the Commission think about referring to this report, which is only a draft, not sent in by anyone, without having Dr. Thomas here. {Mr. Vallance.) I think it would be useful. 23414. {Chairman.) Then we will take it as far as it goes, and if we wish to call Dr. Thomas to answer any- thing in relation to it, we can do so ?—Very well, my Lord. In this report he states as follows : " The subject of overcrowding has received, and still continues to receive, considerable attention from the officials of the Public Health Department." 23415. What exactly is the position of Dr. Thomas ?— He is the Medical Officer of Health for the Metropoli- tan Borough of Stepney. 23416. Specially for Stepney ?—Yes. Then his report continues : " During the year (1902) it attained still more prominence among the public owing to the evidence given before the Alien Immigration Commission. Though overcrowding has existed for a large number of years in the district now comprised in the Borough of Stepney, there can be no doubt that it is more prevalent now than 10 years ago. The census of 1901 revealed an increase of 13,308 during the 10 years as compared with 2,616 during the previous intercensal period. The increase has been due entirely to the increased number of foreigners.'' 23417. Is that 2,616 an increase between 1881 and 1891 1—Between 1881 and 1891—2,616. 23418. An increase of foreigners 2—No, the total increase, 23419. That is the total increase in Stepney ?—Yes. ^ There is no district in the borough where overcrowding does not exist to some extent. It exists in areas inhabited entirely by the native population. It is, true that the evil is accentuated in the districts inhabited by the foreign population. Seeing that the number of inhabited 6144, houses has diminished, the natural increase in the popula- Mr. tion tends to cause overcrowding. Poverty and high J. rents are also immediate factors in the causation of over- crowding. The tenants can afford to pay, and do pay, a higher rent for a room if it is overcrowded. On the other hand, it is true that the tenants would be able to rent a larger number of rooms if the landlord did not demand such a high rent. The high rents cause overcrowding, and overcrowding causes high rents—they act and react. During the year 664 intimations were served to abate the nuisance caused by overcrowding." 23420. That is the year 1902 ?—Yes. In 296 instances the nuisance was abated without serving statutory notices. A certain time, at least seven days, must elapse before tne second notice can be served, as it must be authorised by the Public Health Committee. This Com- mittee meets every other week, and, therefore, a fortnight may elapse before a statutory notice can be served. This notice demands the abatement of the nuisance within seven days. Unless abated within that period pro- ceedings are taken at the police court. Three hundred and sixty-eight statutory notices were served during the year, but legal proceedings were taken in 16 instances only." I call the attention of the Commission specially to that part of the report. 23421. I think the Commission would like to call your attention specially to it. Does it occur to you that there ought to be more legal proceedings taken 1—I propose to make a remark on that later, if your Lordship will allow me. I draw attention to it in passing, because it shows exactly what was done in the district last year—legal proceedings in 16 instances only. " In the St. George's District, special observations were made by the four inspectors allotted to this district. This special house to house inspection was directed to be started in the year 1901 ; the inspections took place between 6 and 8 a.m. on Saturday mornings in Jewish houses, and on Sunday mornings in other houses at a similar hour. Thirty-two streets were thus inspected ; they consisted of 654 houses containing 3,217 adults and 2,061 children. Overcrowding was discovered in 174 houses with 349 persons too many.'' 23422. {Sir Kenelm Digby.) That is measured by the two persons per room standard ?—It is not stated on what basis the overcrowding is estimated, but I take it it is on their own measurement. The " two persons per room " standard is merely a rehousing standard. 23423. Still, that is the Census standard of over- crowding 1—Yes. 23424. The bye-law standard of overcrowding is different 1—Yes. The Census standard of overcrowding is probably a great deal higher than the ordinary standard. The Census standard is two persons per room. I believe no notice is taken of the size of the room or any other particulars. It is two in a room. 23425. It is merely the rough rule of rehousing applied as a test of overcrowding 1—Yes, exactly. 23426. {Chairman.) Out of 654 houses 174 were found to be overcrowded 1—That is so, my lord. 23427. Of those 654 houses, containing 5,278 persons, 349 were in excess and too many 1—5,278 persons, with 349 persons too many. 23428. Where is the standard taken from from which you obtain that figure of 349 too many I—This is the report of the Medical Officer of Health. 23429. Does lie make an arbitrary standard of his own 5 Q8SS ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ■ , Mr. —I should assume the standard he is going by is the J- Lithiby. standard of the bye-laws enforced in the Borough. That 21 Mav 1903 ^e one a(lult to 300 cubic feet, where the room is —J— ' used as a sleeping room only; and 400 cubic feet if it is used both as a living room and a sleeping room. 23430. Does he take the standard from the Lodging House bye-laws 2—I should think so ; there is no other standard. 23431. (Mr. Vallance.) It would be the tenement houses let out in lodgings—not the lodging-houses ?—Yes. .23432. (Chairman.) He takes the standard laid down by the bye-laws as being the limit to which a house should be filled, and then applies that to houses that are not lodging-houses %—That is what I should assume. Then the report goes on to state " that 629 families occupied one-roomed tenements; 460 families occupied two- roomed tenements ; 178 families occupied three-roomed tenements ; 71 families occupied four-roomed tenements ; 24 families occupied five-roomed tenements ; 12 families occupied six-roomed tenements ; three families occupied seven-roomed tenements." Then the Medical Officer of Health gives a list of the streets and courts in which houses were .inspected. The Medical Officer gives a statement of 16 cases in which proceedings were taken. As I have drawn special attention to the fact that 16 - proceedings were taken, I should also state that if the Commission wish I can give the Medical Officer of Health's statement as to the names of the 16 cases—I would only give the initials—and the fines inflicted. 23433. Will you give us generally the character of the fines %—(1)A fine of Is. was inflicted and 25s. costs ; (2) a fine of £3 was inflicted and 23s. costs ; (3) a fine of £5 was inflicted and 23s. costs ; (4) an order of abatement and 23s. costs ; (5) a fine of 40s. was inflicted and 23s. costs ; (6) a fine of £3 was inflicted ; (7) a fine of 20s. was inflicted ; (8) a fine of 20s. was inflicted ; (9) a fine of 30s. was inflicted ; (10) the defendant did not appear, as he was under arrest for another charge ; (11) a fine of £3 was inflicted, or a month's imprisonment; (12) a fine of £8 was inflicted and £2 4s. costs ; (13) a fine of £5 was inflicted and 23s. costs ; (14) a fine of Is. was inflicted and 23s. costs ; (15) a prohibition order, and a fine of Is. was inflicted and 2s. costs ; (16) a prohibition order, and a fine of Is. was inflicted and 2s. costs. 23434. There were only three orders made for abate- ment or prohibition %—That is so. 23435. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The magistrates who have been called here have explained the reason for those small fines. There was some comment made on the smallness of the fines, but the magistrates explained why it was—it was to give them jurisdiction to make a further order 1—Yes. 23436. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Is there any difference between a prohibition order and an order to abate 2—Yes, those terms are defined in the Public Health (London) Act 1891. By section 5 of the Act there are various classes of Orders, and the prohibition order is one which pro- hibits the recurrence of a nuisance. An abatement order is one which orders the abatement of a nuisance. One therefore is temporary, and the other is in the nature of an injunction restraining the person from again com- mitting the nuisance. 23437. (Chairman.) Which is the one which restrains it ?—The prohibition order. 23438. Apart from Stepney, have you had reports of overcrowding from other parts of London 1—Yes, we receive annual reports from all the boroughs of London. 23439. Is Stepney the worst ?—As regards over- crowding I should say that it is, taken as a whole. 23440. Have you anything to suggest as a remedy that could be found for the state of things existing in Stepney? —My suggestion is that the law at present in force with regard to overcrowding is not insufficient—at any rate, we have no evidence that it is insufficient to deal with the question of overcrowding in Stepney. Overcrowding is a nuisance and can be dealt with as such. Under Section 1 of the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, it is the duty of the Sanitary Authority to cause to be made from time to time inspection of their district, with a view to ascertain what nuisances exist calling for abatement under the powers of the Act and to enforce the provisions for the purpose of abating the same. Under Section 3 of the Act, information of a nuisance liable to be dealt with summarily under the Act may be given to the local authority by any person, and it is the duty of every officer of the authority and of every relieving officer, in accord- ance with the regulations of the authority having control over him, to give that information; it is also the duty of the local authority to make regulations, and it is the duty of the sanitary authority, i.e., the Metropolitan Borough Council, to give such directions to their officers as will secure the existence of the nuisance being im- mediately brought to the notice of any person who may be required to abate it, and the officer must do so by serving a written intimation. This is the intimation referred to, no doubt, in the report of the Medical Officer of Health for 1902. He said that 664 intimations were served to abate existing nuisances of overcrowding. There^were in 1901, in the Borough of Stepney, 31,462 inhabited houses. The fact, assuming it to be a fact, that only 664 intimations to abate overcrowding were served in the area, seems to suggest that the dimensions of the overcrowding question were not so large as has been 23441. There is another inference you may draw from it, and that is that sufficient intimations were not given. That was the inference I thought you were going to draw?—I was going to add that if such overcrowding exists as has been stated to this Commission, the only other inference I can draw is that a sufficient number of intimations were not served. 23442. In the first place, you want more inspectors, do not you?—There are 17 inspectors in the Borough of Stepney at the present time. 23443. For 31,462 houses?—Yes. 23444. (Major Evans Gordon.) How does that compare with the average in other districts?—That is the average for London. Roughly speaking, in approving the appoint- ment of Sanitary Inspectors, the Board expect to have one inspector for every 17,000 of the population. Work- ing that out with regard to Stepney, the population of which is 298,000, there should be 17 or 18. 23445. (Chairman,) Say 300,000 ; that would come to about 17 or 18?—Yes. 23446. Then they have got about the proportion?— Yes. 23447. But do you want the same number of inspectors for an open district like Kensington as you have for a congested district like Stepney?—Probably not; that is the rough average. 23448. As you get increased congestion, so you want more inspectors, do you not?—I think so. 23449. Do you think they want more inspectors here in Stepney or not?—They have increased considerably in recent years, and we have no evidence that they want more at present. It is somewhat difficult to get local authorities to increase their number of inspectors, and when the Board have asked for an increase they have not always met with a willing assent. Stepney had 12, and they have increased the number to 17. 23450. Have you anything to say in respect^of any alteration in the law as to the right of entry or any other practical subject?—Section 10 of the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, gives certain powers of entry. It has been stated before this Commission that those powers are insufficient. We have no evidence of that at the Local Government Board. Under the bye-laws which were in force in that district, " The landlord or the lodger who is entitled to have or exercise the control of the outer door of the premises is required at all times, when requested by the officer of health, the inspector of nuisances, or the surveyor of the Council, to afford to any such officer free access to the interior of the premises for the purpose of inspection." 23451. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) We have had some ques- tions raised here as to the validity of that bye-law— whether or not it is not ultra vires in giving the power of entry at all times. Have you ever had that question raised at the Local Government Board?—It has been considered. 23452. That very point has been considered at the Local Government Board, and there has been no decision at all as to its being ultra vires ?—No decision of aMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. court has been given on the subject. The point I should like to make here is this : that until the law has been proved to be too weak there apparently is no neces- sity for strengthening it. 23453. I suppose the argument is that you cannot have effective inspection unless you have inspection at night, and the power to make bye-laws impliedly con- tains that power?—That is so. 23454. {Chairman.) Have you anything to say as to the bye-laws applying only to lodging-houses?—Con- siderable difficulty has, I believe, been felt in some of the districts in consequence of the decision in Weatheritt v. Cantlay. 23455. That is the question of the tenement house?— Yes. I believe the Commission have had that case fully gone into before them. 23456. The Judges held that a tenement in those large block buildings was not a house so as to make them subject to the regulations?—That is so. 23457. Would you extend that?—I think it is worthy of consideration, as to whether some modification of the law is not necessary in a district like this. 23458. In what direction would the modification be?— So as to make bye-laws for tenements that are occupied by one family. 23459. But take those blocks practically. In each one of those tenements one family is in occupation. Surely that should be regarded as a house?—I am not prepared to go as far as that. 23460. Why not?—A tenement block is not a house* Many of these tenements are as separate as ordinary houses, but if a general law of that sort were made, it would apply to ths blocks of fiats in Kensington as well as to the tenement houses in Stepney. 23461. If it applied to houses in Kensington, why should it not apply to a separate flat?—I think there might be inconveniences. 23462. But we must take the balance of those. Here you have a mass of these houses springing up and a mass of these, tenements occupied by a man and his family and nobody else having the right to go there ; why should not he be subject to the sanitary laws'? Why should he be protected because he has a great many round him?— The present bye-laws only deal with a house that is let in lodgings, or occupied by members of more than one family. If a man occupies a separate tenement that, is not let in lodgings, his tenement is no more entitled to be dealt with separately than a house in a terrace of houses. 23463. Why should not the bye-law be extended beyond lodging-houses ?—I think it reasonably might. 23464. Then you would include these places, if it was ? —Yes. I think a special series of bye-laws would have to be made for houses of this kind in crowded districts. 23465. You would not put the law in force in Kensing- ton in the same way as you would in a congested district like Stepney ?—No. 23466. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That would be your way of getting round Weatheritt v. Cantlay ?—Yes. 23467. You would not apply it directly to the big tene- ment houses ?—No. 23468. You would not register the whole house as one house ?—No. 23469. But you would extend the law so as to cover a tenement occupied only by one family in certain districts ? —Yes, and in addition to that I think it might be worthy . u kindly state where you see the impossibility?—I do not see how, at the point of em- barkation, we could get any reliable- information as to the man's criminal antecedents. I do not know of any provision in any Continental law which requires a man "to carry about with him papers which show his crimi- nality when he has been a criminal. It is the custom in France (it is not an obligation) for Frenchmen to carry about with them certain papers which practically are identity papers, extracts as to his birth, and so forth. The only documents they carry in which there is any reference to conduct, so far as I can ascertain, is what they call livret militaire—that is their book of military service, in one of the columns of which there is a provision for an entry as to whether a man's conduct has been good or bad. We have had a case wi'thin the last few days which illustrates how very fallacious; a guide such a book as that would be to us. There was rather a bad murder—I daresay you have read about it in the papers—some short time ago in Paris. A woman they called the Qu^n of Madagascar was murdered, and a man was arrested in G) asgow'. On that man we found these papers I referred to, and he had forged his own certificate of good conduct in it, and we should never have known it, only he told us that he had forged it. 23556. He would not show that on arrival to anyone here. There is nothing at present to that effect ?—No, but when we arrested him we found this book, and I happened to have the book brought up, and the officer said, " This is as regards his conduct, but he has told us he has forged it." We never could have known he had forged it had he not volunteered the information. 23557. I will not trouble you as to what might pos- sibly be done abroad, because that scarcely comes within your immediate consideration here ; but is it your view that nothing can be done by the police here to stop the entry here of criminals?—I think it would be very diffi- cult to adopt any effective measures for stopping the direct entry of criminals ; we can adopt indirect measures. 23558. But supposing they are not in any sense a ful- filment of the word " effective," might it not be that the knowledge on the part of the immigrants coming that there is machinery to try and detect them would stop their arrival to some extent ?—It might be so. 23559. It would be a deterrent ?—Yes, it might be so. 23560. You were speaking of indirect measures. Are there any indirect police measures that you could sug- gest ?—Yes ; I would suggest that when an alien is con- victed of certain offences- 23561. You are passing away now from the subject of entry ?—Yes. 23562. We will deal with entry first. I will not trouble you further if your view is that it would be very difficult here to find an effective prevention ?—I consider it would be very difficult. 23563. We are not putting before you. any absolute passport system ; and I will not ask as to< what can be done with regard to a certificate, but you simply say with regard to your policeman standing on the shore or going on board the vessel, you do not see how the criminal is to be stopped ?—I do not. 23564. Now we will go to „tbe other point, that is, how to. deal with aliens who are here and who are criminals, First with regard to the alien who, being here, is discovered to be a criminal, who is a criminal before he arrives. Would yon treat him in any way? I think there would be some difficulty in establishing satisfactorily that a particular individual had been a criminal in his own country. We might or might not be able to get a photograph of hicm. We1 could only get a description of the criminal, saying he was of a certain height and so on, but I do not know whether that would be considered satisfactory evidence in a court. 23565. I think that with regard to- that there may be difficulty, but assume in the same way that you prove the identity of the man for extradition, that you can prove identity, would you allow him to remain in this country, or, from a police point of view, would he be turned out ? T think it would be a matter for the con- sideration of the court with regard to what should be done to him.MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 863 23566. I am not upon the subject of conviction here, Ibut I am dealing with the matter before conviction. It may be hard if a man has been living here for .15 or 20 years, but I take it as being within the discretion of the administrative authority. Although we have not stopped them coming in, do you see any •reason why we should' not send out undesirable aliens within a certain time of their arrival?—I see no objec- tion, from a police point of view, to their being ordered out. 23567. Take the man on conviction—the alien immi- grant convicted here—how would you deal with him with relation to the question of expatriation ?:—I would leave it to the discretion of the court, that when ;an alien is convicted of certain serious offences, it might Ibe part of the sentence, in addition to undergoing the punishment for the offence, he should also be required .at the expiration of his term of imprisonment to leave the kingdom under penalty. In case of default he might "be treated as a rogue and vagabond. 23568. You see the distinction between the State itself taking charge of the expatriation, and seeing to it, and landing him upon the country where he came rrom, and the course that you are suggesting, that leaves it to him, the prisoner, to find the means of leaving the country ?—Yes. 23569. You prefer the latter method?—Yes, because .1 think there would be probably less complication about' it. 23570. At the same time a man may not have the means?—He might be furnished with the money if -necessary, or a ticket, but we would not deport him. If he pleaded that he had no means of getting out of the kingdom it would be necessary to give him1 the wherewithal. 23571. And if he had not those means, and he had •done his best to go, and did not go, he need not be -treated necessarily as a rogue and vagabond?—That would be a matter for the court. 23572. They would consider that?—Yes. 23573. At any rate, the sentence would be passed, "'You must go" ; and if it was impossible, he must •apply for means, and go in formd pauperis at our ex- pense ; and if for any reason that fails, we will not be inhuman enough to punish him for not doing what he liad not the means of doing?—Yes. 23574. That is your suggestion?—Yes. I base it on the fact that there has been legislation something on the same lines already in the Statute Book. I refer to an Act of George III.—56th George III., cap. 86. 23575. In respect of what crime was that?—It gave authority by proclamation to direct any alien whose presence was considered undesirable to leave the king- dom. 23576. (Mr. Vallance.) Was this Act enforced ?—Yes, it was enforced for two* years. 23577. (Chairman.) We have had several of those Acts, but they did not refer to convicted criminals ?— No, they refer to undesirable aliens. The principle was extended in the Prevention of Crimes Act (Ireland). I think it is Schedule 3 of the Prevention of Crimes Act, 1882 (Ireland), and it was also dealt with in II Victoria, cap. 20. 23578. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) That was at the time of "the Chartists ?—Yes. 23579. (Chairman.) The proclamation was at the will of the Crown to proclaim that certain persons gene- rally, or by name, should leave the country ?—Yes. 23580. That was the compulsory expulsion of aliens ? Yes. I may add that the police are in a position, if such a remedy as this were adopted, to make it abso- lutely effective, which is. a very important matter. 23581. In what way do you say they would make it elective ?—it would be necessary, of course, to pro- vide by legislation that upon information laid, any court competent to deal with vagrancy cases would be •empowered to summon before it any person credibly believed to be an alien who had not fulfilled the condi- tions of living m the country, and the police then would be m a position to prove that he was such person, because when he would be convicted of crime he would be regis- tered in a particular way, and the record would be •always available, and the moment his identity was in question the same test would be applied, and it may be j^r ^ ^ said to be more or less an infallible test. Henry 23582. You would apply your power to order expulsion 9 ~ of persons convicted always as part of the penalty P— May 1903 Yes. --- 23583. The Act of George III. had nothing to do with conviction ?—There is no reference to conviction in it. It says " aliens." 23584. Did not the 45 and 46 Victoria say " On con- viction," or was that merely the power of the Crown to expel?—It gave the Lord-Lieutenant• power by procla- mation to order aliens to leave the kingdom. . 23585. It was aimed at the dynamitards—the objec- tionable American ?—I should think so. 23586. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The Channel Islands Courts have a sentence of this kind ?—Yes. 23587. (Mr. Lyttelton.) Is the merit of this proposal that the banishment is automatic, that is to say, it is carried out by the individual in the one case, and would have to be carried out by the State in the other ?—Yes. 23588. If you supplied a ticket to an alien who had been so convicted for a certain port, wouic? you not be practically doing the same thing, that is to say, would not such a method be open to the international objec- tion, if there is any, of steering an undesirable alien into the particular foreign country?—No, it would not be quite that, because we might give him money, or we might give him a ticket, and he might not go, and then we might punish him as a rogue and vagabond. 23589. That applies to the case of the money, but in the case of the ticket 'it would be the same thing ?— You give him a ticket and he does not go, and then you can punish him. 23590. But if you give a German a ticket, say, to Havre, and if there is any force in the supposed inter- national objection to an undesirable being expatriated into a definite foreign port you would have the same objection from the French nation in such a case as you would if you took him there yourself and debarked him ? —We would give a Frenchman a ticket to a French port, and a German a, ticket to a, German port. 23591. (Chairman.) I see in your evidence you have given the percentage of aliens in different countries, but I think we have already had that'?—That was a note for my own guidance. It is to indicate the sort of lines of my evidence. I say I venture to submit this as a partial remedy, and perhaps, considering those figures, a partial remedy may be deemed sufficient. 23592. It is more difficult for aliens to come here, beinis; an island, than, it is to go over a border?— Quite so. 23593. Have you anything else to suggest with refer- ence to the question we have been considering as to how we could purge this country of foreign crime?—I believe in this remedy if applied. You could make it as drastic as you like. It is only a. question of deciding what offences you would include in the schedule. You would get rid of all dangerous aliens. It will not be effective probably in the first year or the first two years, but within fou r years it would be a most, effective ' remedy if applied by the courts, and we can make absolutely certain if an alien of that kind comes back of establishing his identity at once. 23594. (Major Evans-Gordon.) By the thumb-marks? —Yes. 23595. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) With reference to taking measures for the deportation of aliens otherwise than after conviction, what would you say about the diffi- culty of identifying the aliens ? Supposing you had a description sent from the foreign police that so-and-so was coming at a certain time?—We had a case th© other day. We had a wireless message giving very speciiio details and description of a person, and of his luggage, and saying his luggage would contain very valuable bonds that he had carried away. We searched this luggage, and he proved to be an official of very high rank, and I had to go and make the most abject apology to him. 23596. (Chairman.) You would not have legislation in that direction?—No. 23597. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) "Sou said it was imprac- ticable. I& that one of the reasons ?—It is quite im- practicable. If we had photographs it would be im- practicable. I could produce photographs before this Commission of three or four different men, and you864 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Mfy E, R. _ wdril3t;; bt' pi'epared' afii^osiJ to' swear- they were photo- graphs of the same^ersoiii'1'' 21 Mayrl903. ■ b& great diffibtilty in* the hurry. ---^..... arid bustle of the unloading of the boats, and th£ number of ports yon wonld have to watch ?—If the police acted on pri vate information they -would never know that the inftoaaaM-Om; vwa&j*not the -outcome of'-ill-will. -If they acted on official information and sent the man back he might be; waitedffo^some politipal,dereliction. There would be great difficulties,. - •2359®i (Major 'Evans^GordonJ) What5 -is - done < when a foreign criminal -comes over here, and you want to catch hiin-tfhow would .you,identify him then?—Very often then' the officer comes too, as in the. case; of this man Martin, and he brings his photograph and says, " I am prepared to recognise the man," arid we proceed in various ways, but that requires a great deal of time to b$ devoted to one person. -'We were days after this'man Martin. -■ • v-; • ■" ' 23(600. (Sir Kenelm" DigPy-) We tear: a great deal about the deportation of foreign criminals, and about their being actually sent here. Do you find that exists to any great extent ?-—Bo far as I know, no country1 deports its own citizens. I understand the only offence for which a Frenchman can be expelled from French territory is for certain offences against the State. That is as far as I can make out from their penal code. 23601.: {Major Evans-Gordon.) Do you know whether the French jpplice, with regard to; people who are trouble- ; some, do not say to them, " Look here, you had better clear out " ■?—-1 should think it is quite possible that they do. They do riot profess to say so, but it is quite likely they do. 23602. I went over to Paris last year, and went over a good deal of this work with the French police authori- ties, . M, Cochefert and others, and one of them showed me the photographs of a lot of these people who had not anything specific against them, but who were getting- very troublesome, and I said, ".What do- you do with these people; you know they are bad charac- ters ?" " Oh," he said, " if they get trouble- some we say to them, 1 You had better clear out, you had touch better go,' " arid I said, " Do they act on that hintP " and he said, " It woijld be quit© sufficient for them.^ I said, " What does that man do—does not that same man go to England?" and he laughed very riiuch, and he said, " Well, in effect he does, because yours is v the only country where nobody asks him any questioii when, he arrives." Would your knowledge lead you tc* thipk ithat that goes on to any considerable extent It is not very long ago that two officers of the French police came over here to get information regarding American and English criminals who were giving them , the greatest possible trouble in Paris, so that, does not look as if that succeeded there. We gave them all the inforination we could, and a description of the criminal history of these people, and they went back with it. $3603. I was thinking more of their own troublesome people. The French do claim the right of sending our troublesome people back to us, do they not ?—Yes, they do, but they wait till they are convicted as a rule. 23604.rThey do not, if a man who is associating with bad1 characters, say an Englishman, go1 to Mm and1 say,. " Yori had;'better clear oiitP-^They say they have power in theory, but I do not think they, put it into execution,, arid after they have expelled the man the country they take no steps, so far as I can make out, to inquire whether he has Come back again. They wait till he i»: convicted of crime again, arid then they come down om hirii again ill addition for his having come back. I say the remedy I suggest would be much more effective than this system of expulsion. 23605. But they do say in the French Courts, " Yorn are sentenced to so much, and in addition you mrist leave the country"?—Quite so. I believ© it can be- done by the Minister of the Interior, and, as a matter of fact, is really done by the Prefect of Police. Ii& reality he exercises the power. 23606. Do you know ^whether the-Act of George III. that you referred to was ever enforced, to any great ex- tent-?— No, I do not know. It was only to be in forces for two years. 23607. Is not there a more recent Act of 1896 as re- gards the souteneur ?—That is an amendment of the- Vagrancy Act, 1898. But the souteneur might be an. English souteneur. 23608. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) There is no power of ex- pulsion contained in that Act?—No. 23609. :(Major Evans-Gordon.) Did not the fact of that Act being introduced result in a number of these- souteneurs at the time leaving the country ?—Yes, it had a very marked effect indeed. 23610. Have you any reason to suppose that many of; those men have returned?—I think it is probable.. 23611. (Chairman.) Was the effect of that Act more? than1 to say they should not continue to earn money here, and live upon the proceeds of prostitution ? 23612. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Yes, it deprived them: of their living in that respect. There was no,thing in? that Act to enable you to , send them away ?— No.. . 23613. It was the indirect effect of the Act I—Quite so (Sir Kenelm Digby.) The point of it is that from the liability to punishment under that Act they, went awayr and the witness says, that if they are liable to punish- ment under the provision that they are to be treated as= rogues and vagabonds if they remain here, they would, go away. 23614. (Major Evans-Gordon.) Does your system,, which is in use in this country, and I believe is your own, enable yop. to work in with the finger-print system in Fran'ce ? Would the finger-print; system in. France enable you, to identify \ the man ?—rNo, because they classify by certain measurements, and they have only added finger-prints subsequently, finding that we were* doing it in that way ; so that we could not really inter- change. But what we believe is, that they will adopt- the finger-print system, too. They are introducing it in Austria and Hungary, I believe, and they will pro- bably introduce it in France some day. 23615. They do take the finger-prints now of all their prisoners ?—Yes. 23616 Does this classification of finger-prints enable- you to identify them ?—If they send us the finger-prints we can trace them at once.' Colonel Sir Edward R>. . Bradford, called ; and Examined. Colonel Sir E. B. C. Bradford. 23617. (Chairman.) :W$re< ypu for many years Com- missioner of the Metropolitan Police ?—Yes. ^ ^- 23618. And therefore* the predecessor of Mr. Henr — Yes. ;23619. We t>re, anxious, if we could, to get. any assist- ance as to keeping first the alien criminal out of this country. Y*ou h^ve heard wh&t^Jir., H^ry lias, said-., I do,.not;know whether ;you have, anything=you can assist us;with in addition, or w:hether, you agree with him as' td trie'difficulty ?tt--I entirely agree..We riave often, dis^ cussed this subject as tq .how it would be, possible to practically carry out any measures for the exclusion of criminals, and we have never been able t;o see-our way to anything better or more practical than that which Mr. ^einry has suggested.. < As. for keeping them out, I do^noi;%ink ;it,|mujd\possible.;; n;, i i > " 23620. I do not know that you ,or 'Mr. Henry are. sjeaki|ig as ;to what re|tilatj^s^ ina^e^abroadra^ to" certificate of bhafacter, 'but you are speaking from the English point of view upon the arrival of the alien here?—Yes. 23621.....At all events, from your knowledge and great experience, you do not think it feasible for the police ton- take steps to keep criminals out ?—No. 23622. Mr. Henry has. 'been _ gjood^^nough^.to tell us his views about giving the judge sentencing in. his discretion, power to order the alien criminal to leave the country. Do you agree with what Mr, Henry has said here?— Yes, entirely. I think that would be the most effectual way of keeping them out. 23623. That would only be" upon conviction>1WYes.-• 23624. Supposing it was known to the police tjiat you: had ? a gang of Bussian coinersor forgers of bank-notesv, and the police had marked them down—crime not yet committed,"but they knew these meri we're only waiting" their opportunity^—do you think it would'/be feasible to, give, any adlrnini^trative power, the power to order expulsion before conviction, or would you wait untilMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 865 •they were caught and convicted ?—I think you must wait till they have committed some crime. I do not >«ee how you would be able to eject them. If you had information that they had come here on purpose to com- ..mit crime, they would be certain to commit themselves. 23525. The only way you could do it would be to give -a general power to the Crown to order any person they d>h ought right to leave the country; but, of course, that is very general, and would give a theoretical power as Colonel regards a very broad area?—Yes. ^ jf 23626. I am not raising the question as to whether Bradford. there is not already power in the Crown ; but, as pointed * out in the Act of 1882, power was given by Statute to the__ Lord Lieutenant. However, that is your view, that you think the remedy is in taking the course that Mr. Henry has suggested ?—Yes, I think so, quite. Sir Albert De Rtjtzen, called ; and Examined. 23627. {Chairman.) As we know, you are the Chief Magistrate at Bow Street Police Court?—Yes. 23628. Of course, before you occupied that position .you have seen a great deal of these alien criminals ?— Yes. 23629. Have you any observation to make to us, first irom your experience, as to the condition of these ^criminals, or as to what you observe as to whether they -have been increasing in numbers, and so forth?—I do .not think they have, but I am a very poor person to .answer that question, for the very simple reason that I .am not so much in the midst of them as I used to be, and, apart from extradition cases, I do not see any great increase where I am among aliens generally. 23630. Of course, we have the details. I do not know, «as a magistrate, whether you can form any opinion as to .the power of our law here to detect the alien criminal on arrival, and prevent his coming into the country. You have heard what has been said by Mr. Henry and Sir Edward Bradford. What have you to say on that ? ■—It appears to me, so far as I have been able to gather irom reading some of the evidence given here, as almost impossible, and I entirely agree with what Mr. Henry ^arid Sir Edward Bradford have said on that subject. 23631. What do you say as to adding on to the sen- tence ?—On conviction of an alien ? 23632. Yes ?—That is, to leave the country ? 23633. Yes ?—I think it would1 in a very short time pretty nearly rid us of all the criminal aliens that are here, and I may venture to say (but that is known to .you, of course, just as well as to me), that under the Act of George III. it was, by proclamation, and what I venture to say and think is this : that what can be done by proclamation, of course, can be done by the Legisla- ture. About that there can be no question. The pun- ishment in the Act of George III. was that any person :not leaving the country according to the order by pro- clamation,, for the first offence it was one month's im- prisonment with hard labour, and for the second offence it was twelve months. I have very little doubt that, knowing what was hanging over them, in addition to a long term of imprisonment or penal servitude, and that tacked on to the end of it, most of them, under those cir- cumstances, knowing they were liable to be apprehended at any moment, and brought before the court that was to deal with them, would leave at the very first available opportunity. 23634. We have had a statement to-day that some of these alien criminals have been convicted 20 times arid upwards. ' Your proposition would probably get rid of that criminal ?—-Yes. 23635. I do not see how he could go on continuing here if you carried out the Act of George III., so far as giving "him twelve months' imprisonment?—Because there is •no such power at present. He is a criminal here. 23636. You agree there may be paupers, and it would "be well to give them some facilities to aid them in the way of giving them a ticket, or passage money if neces- sary ?—There was no power in the previous Act for the purpose of finding them the money, and I think it would be better if they are more or less paupers that the instances in which money should be founl for them to , ^ y" go abroad should not be few and far between. e u zen' 23637. As much so as could be. In the Act of George III. there was not quite so much consideration for criminals. We are treating these men remaining more as rogues and vagabonds. In the time of Henry VHI. if a man was a. vagrant he was hanged, but is it right if a man cannot go abroad, and has not got money, that we should punish him because he is impecunious ?— There would be no kind of difficulty if he expressed a wish to go, and showed his inability to pay the fare, why we should not take him to a foreign port. There would be no kind of reason why that difficulty should not be got rid of by some means of paying for his fare. I do not see any reason why that should not be done. It certainly does seem hard that if he cannot find the money therefore he is to go to prison for three months. 23633. (Major Evans-Gordon.) It would be bad economy, because it would be much cheaper to give him his fare than to keep him in prison for three months P— No doubt. (Sir Kenelm Digby.) I have had some occasion to look through several foreign codes lately, and there is a very similar provision in almost all of them, that there is power given, to a court to make an order that the man should leave the country within a certain time. 23639. (Chairman.) Is there anything you can assist us by adding on this general question ?—No, I do not think I could suggest anything on the general question. (Chairman.) The Commission have now completed their labours as far as they know, in taking evidence and the examination of witnesses. Of course, it may be necessary to put certain facts forward yet, in order to form ingredients for our consideration. If such should be the case, the Commission may sit for that purpose, but substantially our proceedings, so far as taking evi- dence is concerned, are now concluded. I may .mention that the Commission has sat for 49 days, and has ex- amined 175 witnesses on very many and varied matters, some, of them making long and varied statements. The consequence of this mass of evidence being before us throws upon every member of the Commission the duty of considering it, and endeavouring from that evidence to extract the conclusions that ought to form the report of this Commission. It. will be apparent that that cannot be done hastily, and cannot, be the work of a day, but the Commissioners will, all of them, devote them- selves as assiduously as is within their power to perform the duty of drawing the Report so as to place it before His Majesty, under whose authority we are acting, at as early a date as possible. I may say practically I trust that will be before Parliament rises during the pre- sent Session. All I have to say is, in conclusion, we are indebted greatly to the witnesses for the assistance w& have received from them, and to the officers of the Com- mission for the good aid they have given us.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION, APPENDIX to MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before the ROYAL COMMISSION on ALIEN IMMIGRATION. VOL. Ill |)r.es*ntitr to botj) Houses of fgarfiamftit bg Command of ||ts Utajtstg, LONDON: PRINTED FOR HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE by wyman and sons, limited, fetter lane, e.c. And to be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from EYRE and SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding Street, Fleet Street, E.C., and 32, Abingdon Street, Westminster, S.W.; or OLIVER and BOYD, Edinburgh; or E. PONSONBY, 116, Grafton Street, Dublin, 1903. ![Cd. 1741—1,][ iii ] INDEX TO APPENDICES. Number of Table. ------- Handed in by Reference No., Evidence. Page. I. Statement showing for each year, 1892-1902, the number of foreign passengers from and to the United Kingdom to and from places out of Europe, and the balance of the movement of such passengers. H. Llewellyn Smith, Representative of the Board of Trade, 1-328, 22121-22397, 22469-22705. 1 II. Statement showing the balance of total passenger move- ment: the total excess of the number of passengers outwards from the United Kingdom, over the number of passengers inwards, and also the balances, distin- guishing Europe from places out of Europe. ditto - ditto 2 III. Statement showing for each year, 1892-1902, the estimated balance of the movement of foreign passengers between the United Kingdom and all other countries. ditto - ditto 3 IV. List of ports at which alien lists are handed in - ditto - ditto 4 Y. Comparative statement showing the aliens who arrived in the United Kingdom from Continental Ports (including all Mediterranean and Black Sea ports), as recorded in the alien lists obtained under Act 6, Will. 4, c. II., distinguishing those stated and not stated in the lists to be en route to other countries, and also distinguishing seamen, in the years 1893 to 1902; with similar particu- lars for London, Grimsby, Hull, Tyne ports, Leith, and Grangemouth, Newhaven, and Dover, separately for the years 1891-1902. ditto - ditto 5 VI. Statement classifying the immigrants and transmigrants by ports of embarkation and arrival in 1902, distinguish- ing between (a) aliens not described on the alien lists as en route (including seamen), and (b) aliens described on the alien lists as en route to other countries. ditto - ditto 9 VI (a), Statement classifying the immigrants and transmigrants by ports of embarkation and arrival in 1901, distinguish- ing between (a) aliens not described on the alien lists as en route (including seamen), and (b) aliens described on the alien lists as en route to other countries. ditto - ditto 10 VII. Statement of the number of aliens ascertained to have been. en route to places out of the United Kingdom, in each of the years from 1891 to 1902, in addition to those so described in the alien lists. ditto - ditto 11 m VIII. Statement showing, for the years 1893 to 1902, the destina- tions of the aliens who arrived in the United Kingdom from Continental ports, and were declared on the alien lists obtained under Act 6, Will. 4, c. II., to be en route to places abroad, and of the aliens entered on the lists, who, though not so declared, were ascertained from information supplied to His Majesty's Consuls and to Officers of His Majesty's Customs to be en route to places abroad. ditto - ditto 12 IX. Statement classifying the immigrants and transmigrants by ports of departure (United Kingdom as a whole), from the year 1893 to the year 1902. ditto - ditto 13 X. Statement giving the number and nationality of alien immigrants (steerage only) who arrived in the United States in each year, 1885 to 1902 (years ended 30th June). ditto - ditto 14 XI. Return of the number of aliens that arrived from the Conti- nent at certain ports in the United Kingdom during the four months ended 30th April, 1903, compared with the corresponding period of the previous year. ditto - ditto 15 XII. Return of the nationalities of the aliens (exclusive of sea- men) who arrived from the Continent at ports in the United Kingdom during the first four months of the years 1902 and 1903, and were not described in the alien lists as en route to places out of the United Kingdom. - ditUv - ditto 16 6141. 1000.—Wt. 10402.—11/03. Wy. & H. a 2[ iv ] Number of Table. Handed in by Reference No., [Evidence. Page. XIII. v' XIV. Statement showing the number of persons who were rejected by the United States or Colonial Immigration Authorities and sent back to the United Kingdom during the year 1902; showing also, so far as can be ascertained, what became of the alien passengers so rejected. H. Llewellyn Smith, Representative of the Board of Trade. 1-328, 22121-22397, 22469-22705. 17 Table showing some leading statistics bearing on the pros- perity of the working classes in the United Kingdom (1888-1902). - ditto - ditto 18' XV. Returns of unemployed in furnishing and tailoring trades ditto ditto 19 XVI. Table relating to wages in furnishing trades, (a) Statistical summary of changes in rates of wages, 1893 to 1902. (by Principal changes, 1893 to 1902. - ditto - ditto 20,21 XVII. Table relating to wages in boot and shoe trades, (a) Statistical summary of changes in rates of wages, 1893 to 1902. (b) Principal changes, 1893 to 1902. - ditto - ditto 22-24 XVIII. Table relating to wages in tailoring trade (bespoke only). (a) Statistical summary of changes in rates of wages, 1893 to 1902. (&) Principal changes, 1893 to 1902. - ditto - ditto 25,26 XIX. Statement showing the exports from the United Kingdom of apparel and slops, and of boots and shoes in each of the years 1888 to 1902. - ditto - ditto 27 XX. Statement showing the quantity of leather boots and shoes exported from the United Kingdom to certain countries in each of the years 1893 to 1902, so far as the particulars can be given. - ditto - ditto 28 XXI. Statement showing the value of leather boots and shoes exported from the United Kingdom to certain countries in each of the years 1893 to 1902, so far as the particulars can be given. • ditto - ditto 29 XXII. Statement showing the value of apparel and slops of British manufacture exported from the United Kingdom to certain countries in each of the years 1893 to 1902. - ditto - ditto 30 XXIII. Statement showing the alien population in certain foreign countries and the United Kingdom (based on the official statistics of the various countries). See Report, para- graph 137. - ditto - ditto , 31 XXIV. Statement showing the number of pauper patients in the London County asylums on May 1st, 1902, and the number of such patients who were aliens; showing also the number of patients in the imbecile asylums under the control of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, on the 10th May, 1902, and the number thereof who were aliens. - ditto - ditto 31 XXV. Statement showing the number of aliens to whom Poor Law relief was granted in the Metropolis during the year 1902, and the kind of relief given in each case; showing also the proportion per cent, which the number of aliens relieved bore to the total alien population. - ditto - ditto 32 XXVI. Statement showing the number and nationality of the aliens to whom Poor Law relief was granted in the Metropolis during the year 1902. • ditto - ditto 33 XXVII. Statement comparing the number of aliens to whom Poor Law relief was granted in the Metropolis during the years 1901 and 1902, distinguishing the kind of relief granted in each case. „ - ditto - ditto 34 XXVIII. Statement showing the number and nationality of the aliens to whom Poor Law relief was granted in the Metropolis during the years 1901 and 1902 - ditto - ditto 35 XXIX. Statement showing the number of aliens to whom Poor, Law relief was granted in certain districts during the year 1902, and the kind of relief given in each case. ditto - ditto 36 XXX. Statement showing the number and nationality of the aliens to whom Poor Law relief was granted in certain districts during the year 1902. ditto ditto 37 XXXI. Statement showing the number of aliens to whom Poor Law relief was granted in the various unions of the Metropolis during the year 1901, and the kind of relief given in each case ; showing also the proportion per cent, which the number of aliens relieved bore to the total alien population. - ditto ditto 38'a-e. 39 40 41 42 42 42 4 2 43 43 44 46 47 [ v ] Handed in by Reference No., Evidence. Statement showing the number and nationality of . the aliens to whom Poor Law relief was granted in the various unions of the Metropolis during the year 1901. Statement showing the number of alien immigrants who were rejected by the United States authorities during each of the years 1888-1902 ; showing also the proportion per cent, that such number bore to the total number of alien immigrants arriving by sea. Statement showing the number of persons who were re- jected and sent back to the United Kingdom by the United States and Canadian authorities in each of the years 1892-1902. Statements showing the total population of Stepney, according to the census of each of the five decennial periods, 1861-1901 : also of Bethnal Green (see in Minutes of Evidence, Page 361), Table XXXV. Statement showing the number of persons born in foreign countries excluding naturalised and British subjects in the boroughs of Stepney and of Bethnal Green, in each of the decennial periods, 1861-1901 (see Minutes of Evidence, Page 361), Table XXXV (a). Statement showing the number of British subjects in the boroughs of Stepney and Bethnal Green (see in Minutes of Evidence, Page 3G1), Table XXXV (6). Statement showing the number of aliens, and percentage to total population and number of British and percentage to total population in Stepney and Bethnal Green in the year L901. Statement showing excess of births over deaths in Stepney and Bethnal Green, and proportion of actual increase, to obtain the net outward movement of the population. Statement showing movement of the British population from Stepney and Bethnal Green in 1901 (see Minutes of Evidence, Page 362). Table showing the results of inquiries made in certain streets in the parishes of Christchurch, Spitalfields, Mile End New Town, and Whitechapel contained therein, as follows:—(1) The number of houses visited and the rooms contained therein, together with the nationality of landlords and tenants, and the number of houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed owner- ship since 1896 ; (2) the total number of houses where the rent has not been raised since 1890, with the nationality of landlords and tenants ; and (3) the total number of houses where the rent has been raised since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants. Table showing the results of inquiries made in certain streets in the parish of Mile End Old Town, as follows :— (1) The number of houses visited and the rooms contained therein, together with the nationality of landlords and tenants, and the number of houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed ownership since 1896 ; (2) the total number of houses where the rent has not been raised since 1890, with the nationality of land- lords and tenants; (3) the total number of houses where the rent has been raised since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants; (4) the number of such houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the rent has been raised only once since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants; and (5) the number of such houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the rent has been raised more than once since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants. Table showing the results of inquiries made in certain streets in the borough of Bethnal Green, as follows:—(1) The number of houses visited and the rooms contained therein, together with-the nationality of landlords and tenants, and the number of houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed ownership since 1896; (2) the number of houses where the rent has not been raised since 1890, with the nationality of landlords and tenants; (3) the total number of houses where the rent has been raised since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants ; (4) The number of such houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the rent has been raised only once since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants ; and (5) the number of such houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the rent has been raised more than once since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants. H. Llewellyn Smith, Representative o i the Board of Trade. ditto - ditto E. Harper, Statisti- cal Officer of lhe London County Council. ditto - ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto 1-328, 22121-2-397, 22469-22705. ditto ditto 10898-10991 11482-11632 ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto[ Ti ] Number of Table. Handed in by Reference No., Evidence. Page. XLI. Table showing the results of inquiries made in certain streets in the parish of St. George-in-the-East, as follows :— (1) The number of houses visited and the rooms contained therein, together with nationality of the landlords and tenants, and the number of houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed ownership since 1896; (2) the total number of houses where the rent has not been raised since 1890, with the nationality of landlords and tenants ; (3) the total number of houses where the rent has been raised since 1890, the average increase per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants ; (4) the number of such houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the rent has been raised only once since 1890, the average increase per room per week and the nationality of landlords and tenants ; and (5) the number of such houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the rent has been raised more than once since 1890, the average in- crease per room per week, and the nationality of landlords and tenants. E. Harper, Statistical Officer of the Lon- don County Council. 10898-10991 48 XLII. Table showing the proportion of the increase in rents to the rents previously paid in certain streets in the Parishes of Christchurch, Spitalfields, Whitechapel, and Mile End New Town, where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. ditto - 11506 49 XLIII. Table showing the proportion of the increase in rents to the rents previously paid in certain streets in the Parish of Mile End Old Town, where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. ditto - ditto 49 XLiY. Table showing the proportion of the increase in rents to the rents previously paid in a certain street in the Borough of Bethnal Green, where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. ditto - 11482-11632 49 XLY. Table showing the proportion of the increase in rents to the rents previously paid in certain streets in the Parish of St. George-in-the-East, where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. ditto - ditto 49 XLYI. Table showing the nationality of landlords and of tenants of a certain number of houses in the Borough of Stepney, with the number of cases where rents were raised by British and alien landlords respectively. ditto - ditto 50 XLYII. Table relating to deposits (key money) paid to landlords or out-going tenants by present occupiers. ditto - ditto 51 XLVIII. Table relating to deposits (key money) paid to landlords and out-going tenants, distinguishing between deposits paid by English and Alien tenants. ditto - ditto 51 XLIX. Overcrowding.—Table showing the number of persons over- crowded in tenements of one to four rooms in each registration district constituting the Metropolitan Boroughs of Stepney and Bethnal Green, for the years 1891 and 1901, and in each registration sub-district of Stepney and the registration sub-district of' Bethnal Green South in 1901, and the percentage of overcrowding to total population. ditto - ditto 52 L. Table showing for each census enumeration district in the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney,- the condition of the population with regard to overcrowding and the density of population per acre. ditto - ditto 53-5€ LI. Overcrowding.—Table showing the total number of enumera- tion districts in each registration sub-district and the number having percentages of overcrowding exceeding 50 per cent.; exceeding 30 per cent., but not exceeding 50 per cent.; and the total number exceeding 30 per cent. ; also the lowest and highest percentages in each enumera- tion district. ditto - ditto 57 Lit. Table showing the number of workmen's trains run and the fares charged by the railway companies serving the Borough of Stepney in 1894, as compared with the number run and fares charged in 1902. ditto - ditto 58 LIII. Table showing the number of workmen's trams run between Aldgate and Poplar and Stratford and the fares charged in 1895, as compared with those run on the same routes and the fares charged in 1902. ditto • ditto 60 LIV. Table showing, for the particular district for which the statistics of rent raising have been obtained, the relation between the extent of alien immigration, overcrowding, rent raising, and the practice of paying a deposit for the key. ditto - ditto 61[ vii ] Number of Table. { Handed in by i i i j Reference No., I Evidence. Page. LV. LVI. Table showing the total population of the United Kingdom, and of each of the three divisions thereof, as enumerated at the Census of 1891 and at that of 1901. Table showing the alien population of the United Kingdom?, and of each of the three divisions thereof, as enumerated at the Census of 1881 and at those of 1891 and 1901. E. Hamper, Statistical Officer of the Lon- don County Council. Compiled from Census ditto - 11482-11632 See also evidence of R. MacLeod, late Registrar General 475-697 i | 62 62 LVII. Table showing the sex and country of birth of the aliens enumerated at the Census of 1891 and at that of 1901 in the United Kingdom, and in each of the divisions thereof. ditto - 63 LVlII. Statement showing the population of the Administrative County of London (including City of London) and of the City of London, and of the Metropolitan Boroughs at each of the decennial periods from 1881 to 1901 ; also the increase or decrease of population in each district at the date of each succeeding census. ditto - 66 LIX. Table showing the alien population of the Administrative County of London (including the City of London), and of the City of London, and the Metropolitan Boroughs at each of the decennial periods from 1881 to 1901 ; also the increase or decrease of population in each district at the date of each succeeding census. ditto - 68 LX. Table showing the foreign population of the City of London and of the Boroughs of the Administrative County of London, according to nationality. ditto - 70 LXI, Table showing the occupations of foreigners (males and females) in the United Kingdom, and in each of the three divisions thereof. ditto - 72-75 LXII. A summary of returns made to the Board of Trade by officers of Customs under Treasury Order 9999—1891 and G.O. 22—1894; showing the number of alien passengers who arrived at the Port of London by the German and Dutch steamers from Hamburg, Bremen, and Rotterdam during the period from 1st April, 1894, to 31st March, 1902, showing also the numbers of steerage (Russian, &c.) immigrants, transmigrants, and other aliens among such passengers, and giving for the steerage immigrants particulars as to average means, the number who had obtained assisted passages, the ultimate destinations of those who were ascertained to be proceeding beyond London, and some of the principal sums produced. Thomas Hawkey, Special Examining Officer under the Board of Customs. 820-898 1311-1569. 76 LXIII. A summary of returns made to the Board of Trade by officers of Customs under B.O. 16387—1896, showing the number of alien passengers who arrived at the Port of London by Danish steamers from Libau, during the period from 1st April, 1896, to 31st March, 1902, showing also the numbers of steerage (Russian, &c.) immigrants, transmigrants, and other aliens among such passengers, and giving for the steerage immigrants particulars as to average means, the number who had obtained assisted passages, the ultimate destinations of those who were ascertained to be proceeding beyond London, and some of the principal sums produced. ditto - ditto 77. LXIII (a). A summary of returns made to the Board of Trade .by officers, of Customs unaer Treasury Order 9999—1891, G.O. 22—1894, and B.O. 16387—1896, showing the numbers of alien passengers who arrived at the Port of London by the German and Dutch steamers from Hamburg, Bremen, and Rotterdam, and the Danish steamers from Libau, during the period from April 1st. 1902, to March 31st, 1903, showing also the numbers of steerage (Russians, &c.) immigrants, transmigrants, and other aliens among such passengers, and giving for the steerage immigrants particulars as to average means, the number who had obtained assisted passages, the ultimate destinations of those who were ascertained to be proceeding:beyond London, and some of the principal sums produced. ditto - ditto 78 LXIV. Table showing the number of prisoners of foreign nationality convicted, and the courts at which they were convicted, during the period extending from 1st April, 1899, to 31st March, 1903. Major E. G. Clayton, R. E. f Secretary to the Prison Com mission. 23210—23345 23523—23546 70 LXY. Table showing the nationality of the prisoners convicted, as indicated by the birth-place. ditto - ditto 80 LXVI. Table showing the offences of which aliens were, during the period extending from 1st April, 1899, to 31st M?.rch, 1903, convicted. ditto - ditto 81[ viii ] Number j of ------ Table. Handed in by Reference No., Evidence. Page. LXVII. LXVIII. Table showing the sentences imposed upon aliens during the period extending from 1st April, 1899, to 31st March, 1903. Table showing the number of previous convictions recorded against the prisoners (alien) and the trade or occupation of each before conviction. Major E. G. Clayton, R.E., Secretary to the Prison Com- mission. ditto - 23210 23345, 2^523-23546. ditto 82 83 LXIX. Table showing the sentences of all prisoners received into prisons in England and Wales during the period extending from 1st April, 1899, to 31st March, 1902. ditto - ditto 85 LXX. "H."or Whitechapel Division.—Return showing, separately, the number of British subjects and foreigners charged, &c., with various offences each year, from 1st January, 1892, to 31st December, 1901. J. Mulvany, Chief Superintendent of lhe H. Division. 8222-8524 86 LXXI. LXXII. Table showing the percentage of foreigners in the population of certain areas in the County of London, in 1891 and 1901. Table showing the comparative overcrowding, &c., in tenements of less than five rooms in Stepney in the years 1891 and 1901. Shirley F. Murphy, Medical Officer of Health of the Ad- ministrative County of London. ditto - 3908-4116 4722-5155 ditto 87 87 LXXIII. Table showing the " Overcrowding," &c., in tenements of less than five rooms in each of the registration districts of Stepney in 1891 and 1901. ditto - ditto 88 LXXI Vr. Table giving vital statistics of Stepney, Southwark, and London, ditto - ditto 89 LXX V. Country of birth of foreigners enumerated in the Metro- politan Borough of Stepney, and in the registration districts comprised therein of (17) Whitechapel, (18) St. George-in-the-East, (19) Stepney, (20) Mile End Old Town. ditto - ditto 90 LXXYI. LXXVII. Thames Police Court.—Return of overcrowding sum- monses heard during 1900, 1901, and 1902 (P.H., London, Oct. 1891, s. 2). Return of cases (British and Foreign) in the Thames Police Court. J. Dickinson, Police Magistrate of the Thames Police Court. 14843-14987 91 92 LXX VII [. The report of Major Evans-Gordon, referred to in the Report of the Royal Commission (Par. 3) is inserted in the evidence, page 451. 93 LXXIX. The report of Mr. F. E. Eddis, the Secretary to the Com- mission, referred to in the Report of the Royal Com- mission (Par. 4) is inserted in the Evidence, pages 785 and 790. 93 LXXX. New cases of foreigners relieved by the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewish Conjoint Committee during the years 1895-1901. L. L. Cohen, Presi- dent of the Jewish Board of Guardians. 15203-15749 93 iLXXXI. Analysis of foreigners.—Old and new cases dispersed by the Board of Guardians and Russo-Jewish Committee. ditto - ditto .94 LXXXII. Schedule showing cases of foreigners added to the Register of the Board of Guardians during each of the last seven years. ditto - ditto 95 LXXXIII. Table summarising in a comprehensive form all cases of foreigners rejected and relieved after investigation by the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo- Jewish Conjoint Committee (exclusive of " Self-Help Departments "). ditto - ditto 96 JFor Index of Tables which are inserted in the Minutes of Evidence, see end of Book, pages 97 and 98. JFor Index of Tables which are inserted in the Minutes of Evidence, see end of Book, pages 97 and 98.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 1 I.—Statement showing for each Tear, 1892-1902, the Number of Foreign Passengers from and to Appendix, the United Kingdom, to and from places out of Europe, and the balance of the movement of such Passengers. From United Kingdom to Places out of Europe. From Places out of Europe to United Kingdom. Excess Outwards 1892 - , - 107,351 44,673 62,678 1893 95,123 37,634 57,489 1894 67,032 66,129 903; 1895 - i 82,818 . 64,803 18.015 1896 76,015 56,509 19,506 1897 62,932 57,994 I 4,938 i 1898 - 60,551 46,362 <±> oc i—i i—i 1899 - i 90,020 59,576 30,444 1900 - 124,722 74,681 50,041 1901 - 124,354 . 60,736 63,618 1902 - 174,291 62,159 112,132 6144. A2 Appendix: Appendix. II.—BALANCE OF TOTAL PASSENGER MOVEMENT. Total Excess of the Number of Passengers Outwards from the United Kingdom over the Number of Passengers Inwards, and also the Balances, distinguishing Europe from Places out of Europe. (Compiled from the Annual Reports of Board of Trade on Emigration and Immigration.) Total Number of Passengers. 1892. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896. I 1897. 1898. 1899. 1900. 1901. 1902. United Kingdom and Europe. From Europe - 490,165 468,642 490,330 522,449 518,869 587,000 620,123 666,230 748,725 • 702,555 773,624 To Europe - 405,998 395,362 477,318 493,946 479,913 569,150 590,226 609,570 669,292 613,843 636,311 Excess from Europe - - 84,167 73,280 13,012 28,503 38,956 17,850 29,897 56,660 79,433 88,712 137,313 United Kingdom and Countries out of Europe. ! - i From United Kingdom - 321,397 307,633 226,827 271,772 241,952 213,280 205,171 240,696 298,561 302,575 386,779 To United Kingdom - 143,747 141,054 185,799 175,674 159,913 155,114 139,346 162,111 175,747 165,018 170,874 Excess from United) Kingdom - - j 177,650 166,579 41,028 96,098 82,039 58,166 65,825 78,585 122,814 137,557 215,905 Grand Total. ] | 1 t From United Kingdom - 727,395 702,995 704,145 765,718 721,865 782,430 795,397 850,266 967,853 916,418 1,023,090 To United Kingdom ■ 633,912 609,696 676,129 698,123 678,782 742,114 759,469 828,341 924,472 867,573 944,498 Excess from United \ Kingdom - - j I 93,483 93,299 28,016 67,595 43,083 40,316 35,928 21,925 43,381 48,845 1 78,592ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 0 3 III.—Statement showing for each Year, 1892-1902, the Estimated* Balance of the movement of Appendix, foreign Passengers between the United Kingdom and all Other Countries. Year. ' Balance of Foreign Passengers between United Kingdom and Places out of Europe. Outivards. Estimated* Balance of Foreign Passengers between United Kingdom and Europe.t Inwards. Estimated * Balance of Foreign Passengers between United Kingdom and all Places. Inwards (subject to a deduction for Foreign Seamen). 1892 62,678 84,167 21,489 %. 1893 - 57,489 73,280 15,7911 1894 - 903 13,012 12,109+. 1895 - 18,015 28,503 10,488 t 1896 - 19,506 38,956 19,450 t 1897 - 4,938 17,850 12,912 X 1898 - 14,189 29,897 15,708 t 1899 - 30,444 56,660 26,2161 1900 - 50,041 79,433 29,392 t 1901 - 63,618 88,712 25,094 £ 1902 - 112,132 137,313 .......~T.rs3w*«a* 25,181 t * On the assumption that the outward and inward currents of British passengers between the United Kingdom and Europe balance each other. t Including Mediterranean and Black Sea ports. I This balance is subject to a deduction for foreign seamen, who arrive as passengers and leave && members of crews of outgoing ships, and are thus not recorded in the outward passenger lists. 6144.4 APPENDIX : 9 Appendix XV.—List of Ports at which Alien Lists are handed in : Hull. Kirkcaldy. Leith. Liverpool. London. Middlesbrough. Newcastle. Aberdeen. Belfast, Blyth. Bristol. Cardiff, *Dover. Dublin. "^Folkestone. , i *JNewhayen. Glasgow. i Newport. Goole. | North Shields. Grangemouth. ! South Shields. Granton. "^Southampton. Greenock. Sunderland. Grimsfcjy. . ! West Hartlepool. "^Harwich. Ik* The lists received from these ports show only deck passengers and persons who, after landing proceed by train as third-class passengers. Lists from Southampton were first received in 1892, from Newhaven in 1893, and from Cardiff and Newport in 1901.V. — Comparative statemenm sliqwi^ amvediri theUnited Kingdom from Continental Ports (including all Mediterranean and Black Sea Ports) as recorded in the Alien Lists obtained under Act (5, Will. 4, c. 11., distinguishing those stated and not stated in the Lists to be en route to other countries, and also distinguishing seamen, in the Years .1893 to 1902; with similar particulars for London, Grimsby, Hull, Tyne Ports, Leith and Grangemouth, Newhaven, and Dover, separately, for the years 1891-1902. All Ports. • 1902,: .1901. >1900. 1899. 1898.' 1897. i 1896. ! 1895. 1894. 1893. 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893 1892. 1891. I.—-Aliens (other than seamen) not stated in the Alien Lists to be en route for other countries: Russians and Poles - 28,511 20,914 25,633 20,266 15,248 14,775 12,773 10 204 ! 7,482 i 8,194 21,013 15,958 17,939 M 927 12,263 12,232 9,762 7,281 4,381 5,407 5,587 9,676 Korwegians, Swedes, and Danes. 5,028 4,725 5,796 5,695 4,775 4,617 4,437 3,700 4,174 4,631 1,341 1,143 1,226 1,289 1,091 1,106 1,120 860 1,115 990 937 844 Germans * 6,965 6,730 5,799 5,926 5,886 5,496 5,557 5,665 6,229 7,075 3,386 3,59(3 2 818 3 016 3,231 3,015 3,032 2,925 3,279 3,166 2 738 3,034 Dutch - - 2,456 2,199 2,171 2,105 1,820 1,468 1,517 1,281 1,138 ; 937 I 902 1,685 1617 1490 1,254 929; : | 952 751 753 581 476 722 French - - - 6,637 5,816 4,821 4,861 4,367 4,477 3,948 3,849 4,077' 4,399 s 591 549 468 532 487 1 403 408 294 235 289 210 222 Attstrians and Hun- garians. - - _ Italians 3,144 2,342 3,074 : 2,548 1,941 i,306 1,246 865 911 1,003 2,197 1,724 2,174 1,824 1,612 1,029 950 496 554 515 356 332 7,734 7,185 ' 7,707 5,553 4,224 4,061 3,448 2,738 2,452 : 2,377 169 143 241 118 175 139 137 142 73 40 117 45 Roumanians - Other Nationalities - 1,282 4,714 1,162 4,351 3,216 4,288 | 3,930 ) . 2,524 2,651 2,522 2,226 2,219 2,440 J" 1,016 11,431 950 1,325 2,776 1,334 | 1,393 1,048 843 747 664 654 517 533 416 Total - -: 66,471 *55,464 62,505 50,884 40,785 38,851 35,448 30,528 28,682 31,056 33,046 27,070 30,593 24,589 21,161 19,696 17,108 13,413 i ■ 11,044 11,505 10,954 15,291 II.—Seamen- /K r ; -15,962 15,146 j 14,950 i3,362 12,299 10,762 10,461 9,894 9,821 9,760 : 2,477 2,655 2,441 j 2,245 1,928 1,999 1,843 1,945 2,203 2,164 2;091 2,169 III.—Aliens stated in the Alien Lists to be en route to other countries. 118,478 79,140 71,682 49,947 : . | 32,177 32,221 40,036 44,637 35,512 79,518 14 4 5 6 334 77 338 ■ !'" 1 " 1 141 i 1 310 i 1 205 ! - 16 Gross Total - - 200,011 149,750 149,137 114,193 85,261 81,834 85,945 85,059 74,015 -120,334 35,537 29,729 33,039 26,840 23,423 21,772 19,289 15,499 13,557 13,874 13,045 17,476 All Ports. London. Including 40 aliens whose na onality was not ascertained. London. Including 40 aliens whose na onality was not ascertained. & H ITABLE Y.- -continued Grimsby. Hull. 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. 1892. 1891. 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. 1892. 1891. . —Aliens (other than seamen) not stated in the Alien Lists to be en route for other countries:— Hussians and Poles - 5,660 3,376 5,242 3,671 1,278 685 794 549 547 863 666 1,112 896 1,006 1,815 1,115 786 955 1,219 1,070 1,236 933 499 504 Norwegians, Swedes and Danes 237 217 191 245 150 158 93 129 99 133 175 83' 803 819 706 581 586 448 402 361 473 506 560 396 Germans..... 501 461 405 629 399 479 453 526 371 904 983 762 483 402 504 399 658 570 534 548 672 928 747 575 Dutch..... 64 78 161 130 119 83 120 116 19 27 28 8 130 123 139 191 171 100 i 79' 161 135 135 135 51 French - 18 27 2 6 4 7 7 15 17 3 3 11 29 27 27 21 20 23 15 9 9 22 16 7 Austrians and Hungarians 85 174 500 379 43 29 40 31 26 27 19 18 83 78 97 97 86 56 46 32 64 153 17 9 Italians..... 136 213 83 180 112 141 116 105 114 129 53 46 6 19 71 30 53 27 15 36 16 8 31 33 Roumanians - Other Nationalities - 26 50 61 115 251 27" | 55 39 22 42 7 8 33 43 182 f 45 1 65 37 65 78 71 j 84 47 57 69 72 57 74 79 57 Total - - - 6,777 4,722 6,862 5,295 2,144 1,604 1,665 1,478 1,201 2,119 1,970 2,222 2,540 2,576 3,508 2,518 2,407 2,236 2,379 2,289 2,662 2,759 2,084 1,632 I,—Seamen - 1,166 778 740 740 409 341 369 191 287 334 419 96 2,320 2,255 2,579 2,225 2,265 1,640 1,688 1 I 1,454 i 1,498 1,456 1,613 1,043 II.—Aliens stated in the Alien"! Lists to be en route to other J- countries.....J 26,973 19,148 15,288 10,792 8,097 9,544 10,519 9,564 7,880 17,927 19,066 16,189 170,082 44,898 42,931 30,699 17,331 1 1 16,402 22,207 23,376 16,685 50,435 60,235 62,923 Gross Total - - - 34,916 24,648 22,890 16,827 10,650 11,489 12,553 11,233 9,368 20,380 21,455 18,507 74,942 49,729 49,018 35,442 22,003 20,278 26,274 27,119 | 20,845 £4,650 i 1 ' 63,932 65,598 TABLE Y.- -continuedTABLE V.—continuedi Tyne Ports. Leith and Grangemouth. 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898.. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. 1892. 1891. 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. 1892. 1891. I —Aliens (other than seamen) not stated in the Alien Lists to be m route for other countries :— - Russians and Poles - 44 24 74 159 19 65 8 133 29 43 48 104 113 131 50 30 39 9 199 548 723 109 113 164 Norwegians, Swedes and Danes 1,339 1,433 1,569 1,449 1,159 1,267 1,199 1,013 1,157 1,514 1,333 2,147 478 532 442 437 529 449 509 405 429 558 457 434 Germans - 267 233 241 231 223 176 167 200 215 193 210 355 717 763 553 584 562 574 613 577 568 535 500 488 Dutch..... 37 41 33 41 47 40 28 23 30 25 13 22 212 155 113 120 109 151 147 131 107 85 108 57 French..... 178 170 125 162 121 112 81 82 121 95 77 77 49 51 55 62 46 76 38 24 57 66 67 56 Austrians and Hungarians 14 4 8 2 15 5 1 6 5 5 — 3 20 1 8 16 9 19 12 35 132 61 8 15 18 Italians - 8 19 18 4 2 6 4 3 23 2 8 1 421 341 417 394 421 337 286 208 207 168 124 125 Roumanians - Other Nationalities - 9 80 9 77 7 115 | 58 73 65 64 53 68 40 43 39 f5 ( 131 192 99 | 259 136 134 84 109 82 77 88 31 Total - - - 1,976 2,010 2,190 2,106 1,659 1,736 1,552 1,513 1,648 1,917 1,732 2,748 2,146 2,173 1,745 1,895 1,861 1,742 11,911 2,134 2,234 1,606 1,472 1,373 II.—Seamen ~ - 4,677 4,441 5,102 4,807 4,512 4,009 3,587 3,508 2,991 3,123 3,155 3,685 1,350 1,447 1,396 1,176 1,575 1,144 1,153 1,091 1,324 966 1,454 1,570 III.—Aliens stated in the AlienH Lists to "be en route to otheif h c} intries.....J 4,017 2,841 2,942 2,998 11,446 i I | 934 673 355 68 525 112 12 3,726 2,341 2,224 1,140 896 612 1,343 4,694 5,379 8,488 8,776 11,514 Gross Total - - - 10,670 9,292 10,234 9,911 7,617 6,679 5,812 5,376 4,707 5,565 4,999 6,445 7,222 5,961 5,365 4,211 4,332 3,498 4,407 7,919 8,937 11,060 11,702 14,457 Tyne Ports. Leith and Grangemouth. 3 aTABLE V. —continued. Newhaven. Dover. ; \ 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. j 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. f 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. 1892. 1891. I. ^Aliens (other than seamen) not stated in the Alien Lists to be en route for other countries:— i 1 Russians and Poles • 659 315 406 276 259 225 257 171 236 473 53 62 64 ; 39 36 27 ; 10 8 36 34 12 57 Norwegians, Swedes and Danes 69 35 42 26 30 31 21 30 35 34 7 6 10 6 4 2 1 1 4 4 — 10 Germans..... 958 704 742" 561 425 391 427 374 412 513 332 348 313 272 141 60 34 85 42 108 65 133 Dutch - - , - - 41 22 32 18 18 12 24 20 40 57 10 12 13 20 5 2 3 7 7 7 11 13 French..... 4 269 3,764 3,391 3,448 3,138 3,515 3,085 3,222 3,258 3,422 968 763 551 439 289 | 136 101 56 48 154 310 908 Austrians arid Hungarians 282 226 191 166 108 116 113 93 121 218 71 94 70 45 18 14 14 13 7 11 31 51 Italians * 6,394 5,978 6,478 4,317 3,260 3,213 2,715 2,085 1,802 1,736 369 ?69 320 238 158 155 120 142 138 234 373 455 Roumanians - - - Other Nationalities - • 164 1,828 84 1,424 85 1,578 | 1,079 665 862 957 771 712 1,004 I10 [631 16 636 16 • 578 | 501 264 161 143 156 112 212 227 476 Total - - - 14,664 *12,592 12,945 9,891 7,903 8,365 7,599 6,766 6,616 7,457 2,451 2,306 1,935 1,560 915 557 426 468 394 764 1,029 2,103 I.—Seamen - 439 437 409 301 214 180 124 292 187 171 75 65 116 64 47 16 3 11 14 17 42 73 III.—Aliens stated in the Alien"! Lists to he en route to other j- countries - - - - -J 11 152 — — 31 — — — 1 — — — — — — — — — — — — 493 Gross Total - • - 15,114 13,181 13,354 10,192 8,148 8,545 7,723 7,058 6,804 7,628 2,526 2,371 2,051 1,624 962 573 429 479 408 781 1,071 2,669 TABLE V. —continued. * Including 40 aliens whose nationality was not ascertained. f Prior to the year 1893 alien lists were not received from Newhaven. * Including 40 aliens whose nationality was not ascertained. f Prior to the year 1893 alien lists were not received from Newhaven.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 9 Appendixt' VI.—Immigrants and Transmigrants classified by Ports of Embarkation and Arrival in 1902. ........... (1) Aliens not described on the Alien Lists as en route (including Seamen). Ports of Arrival. Ports of Embarkation. London. Grimsby. Hull. Tyne Ports. Leith and Grange- mouth. New- haven. Dover, Har- wich. Other Ports. Total. Russian Ports - 6,749 1,099 24 1 _ _ _ 1 7,874 Scandinavian Ports - - - 2,187 140 1,614 4,322 890 - - - 479 9,632 Danish ,, - 108 436 159 780 467 - - 734 32 2,716, German ,, - 14,760 6,774 1,118 561 690 - - - 531 24,434 Dutch ,, 8,837 300 497 436 649 - - - 94 10,813- Belgian - 1,349 277 93 175 581 - 1,043 - 46 3,564 French ,, 592 1 126 7 101 15,103 1,483 - 1,479 18,892 Not separately distinguished in published statistics - -J 941 15 154 348 117 - - - 2,033 3,608 Total - - - 35,523 7,943 4,860 6,653 3,496 15,103 2,526| 734 4,695 81,533 (1) Aliens not described on the Alien Lists as en route (including Seamen). (2) Aliens described on the Alien Lists as en route to other countries. Russian Ports - . 157 26,887 _ _ * _ _ _ _ 27,044 Scandinavian Ports - - 8 10,152 36,315 4,016 •338 - - - 124 50,953 Danish ,, - - 3.745 288 - 597 - - 10,184 - 14,814' German ,, - - 2 645 2497 - - 1 - - 1 3,145 Dutch ,, - - - - 7,032 3,013 - 2,760 - - - -- 12,805 Belgian „ - - 5,242 977 - 30 - - - 4 6,253 French ,, ; - - - - - 1 - - 11 - - 3,287 3,299' Not separately distinguished) in published statistics - - J 4 - 104 1 1 I - - 55 165 Total - - - 14 26,973 70,082 4,017 3,726 11 - • 10,184 3,471 118,478 (3) Total Aliens arrived. Russian Ports - _ 6,749 157 27,986 24 1 - - - 1 34,918 Scandinavian Ports - - 2,195 10,292 37,929 8,338 1,228 - - - 603 60,585 Danish ,, - • - 108 4,181 447 780 1,064 - ■ - 10,918 32 17,530 German ,, , - - 14,762 7,419 3,615 561 690 - ' - - 532 27,579 Dutch ,, - 8,837 7,332 3,510 436 3,409 - ; - - 94 23,618. Belgian ,, - - - 1,349 5,519 1,0{70 175 611 - 1,043 - 50 9,817 French - - 592 1 127 7 101 15,114' 1,483 - 4,766 22,191 Not separately distinguished) in published statistics - -J 945 15 258 349 118 - - -• 2,088 3,773 Total - - - 35,537 34,916 74,942 10,670 7,222 15,114. 2,526 10,918 8,166 200,011 (2) Aliens described on the Alien Lists as en route to other countries. For similar Statistics of the Year 1901. see next page. For similar Statistics of the Year 1901. see next page. 6144. B10 APPENDIX I Yl.—continued—Immigrants and Transmigrants, classified by Ports of Embarkation and Arrival in .1901. (1) Aliens not described on the Alien Lists to be en route (including seamen). Ports of Arrival. Ports of Embarkation. London. Grimsby. Hull. Tyne Ports. Leith and Grange- mouth. New- haven. Dover. Harwich, Other Ports. Total. Russian Ports 5,597 — 1.067 — 2 — — — 3 6,669 ~ Scandinavian Ports 2,068 216 1,640 4,276 985 — — — 405 9,590 Danish „ 117 342 143 736 496 — — 514 60 2,408 German „ 12,269 4,247 1,024 461 914 — — — 680 19,595 Dutch „ 7,029 282 607 465 487 — — — 134 9,004 Belgian „ 1,289 388 86 165 525 — 1,025 — 62 3,540 French „ 457 1 99 5 39 13,024 1,314 — . 838 15,777 Not separately distin-1 guished in published Y statistics - - - J 899 24 165 343 172 5 32 — 2,387 4,027 Total 29,725 5,500 4,831 6,451 3,620 13,029 2,371 514 4,569 70,610 Ports of Arrival. (2) .Aliens described on the Alien Lists to be en route to other countries. Russian Ports _ _ 14,678 _ _ _ 14,678 - Scandinavian Ports — 7,382 25,024 2,836 255 — — — 148 35,645 Danish „ — 2,398 573 — 463 — — 8,465 19 11,918 •German „ — 211 1,865 2 200 — — — 6 2,284 Dutch „ — 4,138 2,069 1 1,413 — — — 1 7,622 Belgian „ — 5,019 617 1 10 — — — 5 5,652 French „ — — 1 8 — — 152 — — 1,079 1,239 Not separately distin- guished in published }- -statistics - - - J 4 — 64 1 — — — — 33 102 : Total 4 19,148 44,898 2,841 2,341 152 ! 1 _ l 8,465 1,291 79,140 (3) Total Aliens arrived. Russian Ports 5,597 _ 15,745 _ 2 _ _ _ 3 21,347 Scandinavian Ports 2,068 7,598 26,664 7,112 1,240 — — — 553 45,235 Danish „ 117 2,740 716 736 959 — — 8,979 79 14,326 German 12,269 4,458 2,889 463 1,114 — — — 686 21,879 Dutch „ 7,029 4,420 2,676 466 1,900 — — — 135 16,626 Belgian „ 1,289 5,407 703 166 535 - 1,025 — 67 9,192 French „ 457 1 107 5 39 13,176 1,314 — 1,917 17,016 Not separately distin-"I guished in published > statistics - - -J 903 24 229 CO 172 5 32 — 2,420 4,129 Total 29,729 24,648 49,729 9,292 5,961 13,181 2,371 8,979 5,860 149,750 (2) .Aliens described on the Alien Lists to be en route to other countries.ROYAL COMMISSION" ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 11 VII.—Statement of the Number-of Aliens ascertained to have been- an route to places out of the Appendix. United Eagl-om in each of the undermentioned years, in addition to those so described in , the Alien Lists. Years. 1891 1892 - 1893 - 1894 - 1895 - 1896 - 1897 - 1898 - 1899 - 1900 - 1901 - 1902 - Numbar. j-Noi information. 420 2,166 2,074 O (If)"] 2,676 2,336 2,?89 3,972 3,879 *7,964 * Provisional figures, subject to slight amendment. 6144. 212 APPENDIX : Appendix. Yin.—Statement showing, for the years 1893 to 1902, the Destinations of the Aliens whp arrived in the United Kingdom from Continental Ports, and were declared on the Alien Lists obtained under Act 6 Will. 4, c. 11, to be en route to places abroad, and of the Aliens entered on the Lists, who, though not so declared, were ascertained from information supplied to His Majesty's Consuls and to Officers of His Majesty's Customs to be en route to places abroad. Destination. Number of Aliens. 1902. 1901, 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. America 123,549* 81,400 74,453 51,076 33,110 33,071 39,765 45,010 36,752 79,106 South Africa 2,614* 1,182 649 1,056 1,162 1,671 3,120 1,543 567 208 Other places 279* 437 552 704 241 155 112 158 359 624 Total - - - 126,442* 83,019 75,654 52,836 34,513 34,897 42,997 46,711 37,678 79,938 * Provisional figures, subject to slight amendment. * Provisional figures, subject to slight amendment.IX.—Immigrants and Transmigrants classified by Ports of Departure (United Kingdom as a whole). 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. 1902. 1901. 1900. 1899. 1898. 1897. 1896. 1895. 1894. 1893. Ports of Embarkation. Aliens not described on the Alien Lists to be en route to other Countries (including Seamen). Aliens described on the Alien Lists to be en route to other Countries, Total Aliens arrived. Russian Ports - 7,874 6,669 6,493 4,098 2,719 4 855 2,323 914 961 460 27,044 14,678 16,89R 14,863 4,348 3,980 6,558 5,932 5,180 5,691 34,918 21,347 23,389 18,961 7,067 8,835 8,881 6,846 6,141 6,151 Scandinavian Ports; 9,632 9,590 10,690 9,779 9,048 8,832 7,929 7,829 7,844 8,359 50,953 35,645 30,639 22,17-6 16,801 19,072 23,351 20,268 13,321 45,499 60,585 45,235 41,329 31,955 25,849 27,904 31,280 28,097 21,165 53,858 Danish Ports - 2,716 2,408 3,259 3,638 3,082 2,450 2,500 2,013 1,999 2,048 14,814 11,918 10,638 6,781 4,776 4,258 5,253 3,613 2,559 6,453 17,580 14,326 13,897 10,419 7,858 6,708 7,753 5,626 4,558 8,501 German Ports - 24,434 19,595 25,317 21,682 19,207 15,664 16,732 14,027 10,824 13,130 3,145 2,284 1,907 1,754 3,882 3,523 3,185 7,519 7,399 5,440 27,579 21,879 27,224 23,436 23,089 19,187 19,917 21,546 18,-23 18.570 Dutch Ports - 10,813 9,004 9,758 7,017 5,047 3,806 4,101 4,658 5,362 3,917 12,805 7,622 7,821 3,330 1,724 580 507 2,787 3,919 12,356 23,618 16,626 17,579 10,347 6,771 4,386 4,608 7,445 9,28j 16,273 Belgian Ports -• 3,564 3,540 2,894 2,889 2,256 1,684 1,380 1,222 1,434 1,318 6,253 ' 5,652 2,448 379 177 293 342 1,155 1,096 3,588 9,817 9,192 5,342 3,268 2,433 1,977 1,722 2,377 2,530 4,906 French Ports - 18,892 15,777 15,707 12,323 9,629 9,871 8,560 7,744 7,806 8,824 3,299 1,239 972 518 410 414 770 1,974 1,346 — 122,191 17,016 16,679 12,841 10,039 10,285 9,330 9,718 9,152 8,824 Not separately distinguished ! in published j 3,608 4,027 3,337 2,820 2,096 2,451 2,384 2,015 2,273 2,760 165 102 361 146 59 101 70 1,389 692 491 3,773 4,129 3,698 2,966 2,155 2,552 2,454 3,404 2,965 3,251 statistics - J Total - 81,533 70,610 77,455 64,246 53,084 49,613 45,909 40,422 38,503 40,816 118,478 79,140 72,682 49,947 i ! 32,177 32,221 40,036 44,637 35,512 79,518 200,011 149,750 149,137 114,193 85,26 L 81,834 85,945 85,059 74,015 120,33414 APPENDIX: Appendix* UNITED STATES—IMMIGRATION. X.—Number and Nationality of Alien Immigrants (Steerage only) who arrived in the United States in each Year, 1885 to 1902 (Years ended 30th Jun»). Years. United Kingdom. Russia and Poland, (c) Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Germany. Italy. Austria- Hungary. Other. Total. 1885 - 109,508 20,243 40,704 124,443 13,642 27,309 ' 59,497 395,346 1886- 112,548 21,739 46,735 84,403 21,315 28,670 18,783 334,203 1887 - 161,748 36,894 67,629 106,865 47,662 40,265 29,086 490,109 1888 - 182,205 39,313 81,924 109,717 51,558 45,811 36,361 546,889 1889 - 153,549 38,838 57,504 99,538 25,307 34,174 35,517 444,427 1890 - 122,754 46,671 50,368 92,427 52,003 56,199 34,880 455,302 1891 - 122,311 74,923' 60,107 113,554 76,055 71,042 42,327 560,319 1892 - 93,598 122,047 66,295 119,168 61,631 76,937 39,987 579,663 1893 - 78,767 58,684 58,945 78,756 72,145 57,420 35,013 439,730 1894 - 52,811 41,219 32,400 53,989 42,977 38,638 23,597 285,631 1895 - 75,161 36,698 26,852 32,173 35,427 33,401 18,824 258,536. 1896 - 64,827 52,136 33,199 31,885 68,060 65,103 28,057 343,267 1897 - 41,173 29,981 21,089 22,533 59,431 33,031 23,594 230,832: 1898 - 38,022 34,554 19,282 17,111 58,613 39,797 21,920 229,299 1899 - 45,181 (c) 60,982 22,192 17,476 77,419 62,491 25,974 311,715 1900 - 48,237 (c) 90,787 31,151 18,507 100,135 114,847 44,908 448,572' 1901 - 45,546 {e) 85,257 39,234 21,651 135,996 113,390 46,844 487,918 1902 - 46,036 (c) 107,347 34,038 28,304 178,375 171,989 62,654 648,743 [а) The number of alien passengers, other than steerage (not included above), was in 1901, 74,950, and in 1902, 82,055. The corresponding numbers for previous years are not stated in the Reports of the Commissioners of Immigration. (б) There is no record of the volume of immigration into the United States across the land frontiers. (c) Commencing with 1899, Polish immigrants have been included in the countries to which they belong.ROYAL COMMISSION' ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 15 -r-r-r-....... - -..... ■ ■ ................. . —Return of tlie Number of Aliens that arrived from the Continent at Portsf in the United Kingdom during Appendix, the Four Months ended 30th April 1908, compared with the corresponding period of the previous Year. (Compiled from the Alien Lists received by the Customs under Act 6, Will. 4, c. 11, s. 2.) Hamburg, Bremen, and Bremerhaven. Rotterdam, Amsterdam, and Antwerp. Gothenburg, Christiania, Arendal, and Christiansand. Libau. Dieppe. Other Continental Ports. ; Total. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. Aliens not described in the Alien Lists as en route to places out of the United JCingdom.* Arrived at— : London 4,401 3,506 2,343 1,906 487 520 1,437 1,094 - - 610 606 9,278 7,632 'Grimsby - 1,511 1,269 202 284 19 9 - - 7 - 146 165 1,885 1,727 Hull - 552 276 270 138 292 367 39 17 - - 530 541 1,683 1,339 Tyne Ports 49 152 97 115 670 752 - - - - 827 916 1,643 1,935 Leith - - \ 160 188 248 230 3 24 1 - - : - 137 103 549 665 Newhaven - - - - - - - 4,976s 4,974 2 4,978 4,974 Other Ports 78 147 234 1 116 265 376 3 1 - i - 3,120 i 2,036 3,700 2,676 V3fla i vTotal - - • 6,751 5,538 3,394 2,819 1,736 2,048 1,480 1,112 4,983' 4,974 5,372 4,457 23,716: 20,948+ Aliens described in the Alien Lists as en r ottte to places out of the United Kingdom. 'Grimsby - 1,008 125 4,801 3,944 2,859 2,679 J - 157 - ■ - 1,292 1,145 j 9,960 8,050 Harwich - - - - - - - - - 4,517 4,445 4,517 4,445 Hull - - 365 455 1,891 1,637 10,982 8,424- 1,945 1,397 - - 10,237 9,852 25,420 21,765 «Other Ports 9 2 611 794 511 327 1 - _ - 3,496 3,296 4,628 4,419 Total - - 1,382 582 7,303 6,375 14,352 11,430 1,946 1,554 1 i ! 19,542 18,738 44,525 I 1 38,679 Total of Aliens) arrived - J 8,133 a 120 10,697 9,194 16,088 13,478 3,426 2,666 4,983 4,974 24,914 23,195 68,241J 59,627J (Compiled from the Alien Lists received by the Customs under Act 6, Will. 4, c. 11, s. 2.) * The distinction made in this Return between " Aliens not described in the Alien Lists as en route to places out of the United Kingdom" and " Aliens described in the Alien Lists as en route, &c.," is due to the fact that a large number of Aliens who arrive from Continental ports are reported to be on the'way to places out of the United Kingdom, and it is considered desirable to record this fact. But it is not thereby implied that the " Aliens not described in the Alien Lists as en route, &c.," come to this country for settlement, there being, in fact, a large emigration of foreigners from this country, while many of the Aliens arriving from Continental ports return to the Continent. (See Annual Report on Emigration and Immigration, No. 183, Sess. 1902, and Monthly Emigration Returns,) t The Ports from which Alien lists are received are Aberdeen, Belfast, Blyth, Bristol, Cardiff, Dover, Dublin, Folkestone, Glasgow, Goole, Grangemouth, Granton, Greenock, Grimsby, Harwich, Hull, Kirkcaldy, Leith, Liverpool, London, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, Newhaven, Newport, North Shields, South Shields, Southampton, Sunderland, and "West Hartlepool. The lists received from Dover, Folkestone, Harwich, Newhaven, and Southampton show only deck passengers, and persons who, after landing, proceed by train as third-class passengers^ J The number of sailors included with the Aliens who arrived at ports in the United Kingdom not en route to places out of the United Kingdom in the four months ended April 1903 was 4,624, and 5,089 in the same months of 1902.XII. -Return of the Nationalities of the Aliens (exclusive of Seamen) win arrived from the Continent at Ports in the United Kingdom during the first four months of the years 1902 and 1903, and were not described in the Alien lists as en route to places out of the United Kingdom. Port of Arrival. Russians and Poles. Norwegians, Swedes and Danes. Germans. Dutch. French. Austrians and Hungarians. Italians. Roumanians. | Other Nat lonaiities. Total. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903, 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. 1903. 1902. ' 1903. 1902. London 5,546 4,045 276 252 980 885 522 351 137 143 621 580 30 25 136 183 288 i 1 268 8,536 6,732 Grimsby - 1,210 937 64 69 123 125 41 17 1 1 19 12 59 79 3 8 ; 13 11 1,533 1,259 Hull - 425 208 169 363 191 117 40 19 10 3 10 15 2 2 - ; 8 ; 25 8 872 643 Tyne Ports 9 7 331 379 35 49 13 4 2 5 1 2 - - - 1 11 6 402 453 Leith 11 7 35 48 102 138 13 11 2 9 - - 164 158 - ; 4 26 23 353 398 Newhaven 131 172 15 32 326 324 16 19 1,134 1,197 116 Ill 2,575 2,452 29 £5 ! 470 450 4,812 4,812 Other Ports 71 62 295 244 242 168 97 71 290 358 1 1,107 51 174 264 8 4 ; 300 340 2,584 1,562 Total - - - 7,403 5,438 1,185 1,287 1,999 1,806 742 492 1,576 1,716 1,874 771 3,004 t 2,980 176 263 1 1,133 1,106 19,092 15,859ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 17 XIII.—Statement showing. ;ihe Number of Persons who were rejected by the United States or Colonial Appendix. Immigration Authorities^.and sent back to .the,United Kingdom during the Year 1902 ; shoeing also, so far as can be ascertained, what became of the Alien Passengers so rejected. ...... - . ...........Number of Passengers returned to this country after rejection by Number of these Passengers (other than British subjects) who according to information supplied by the Shipping Companies were United States Authorities. Canadian Authorities. British. Foreign. i British. Foreign. Returned to the Continent. Returned to. places in the United Kingdom. Unaccounted for. j i Total. 172 I ' 352 J 1 84 4<31 25 10 436 iil 14. c18 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 APPENDIX: XIV.—Table showing some leading Statistics bearing on the Prosperity of the "Working Classes in the United Kingdom (1888-1902). Years. Percentage Changes in Average Level of General Wages. (1888 = 100.) Percentage of Unemployed returned by Trade Unions. Mean Rate of Pauperism per 10,000 of Population. Percentage Changes in Value of Foreign Trade (Imports and Exports). (1888 = 100.) - _ 100-0 4*9 i 268 100-0 - 103*6 2-1 260 108*3 - 107*3 2-1 253 109*1 . 108*8 3*5 246 108*5 - * - 107*0 6*3 247 104*3 - 107*0 7-5 252 99*4 106*0 6-9 252 99*4 105*3 5*8 254 102*4 - 106*2 3-4 251 107*6 - 107*3 3*5 249 108-6 - 110*3 3*0 255 111*4 . 113*0 2*4 240 117*4 - 119*3 2*9 235 126*6 - 117-9 38 237 » 125*4 116*2 4*4 239* 127*1 Partly estimated. Partly estimated.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 19 XV.—Retuhns of Unemployed in Furnishing and Tailoring Trades. Appendix. I.—Furnishing Trades. Mean Percentage of Members of Trade Unions connected with the Furnishing Trades reported as Unemployed from 1894 to 1902. Yeae. Mean Membership of Unions making Returns. Mean Percentage returned as Unemployed. 1894 ....... 8,743 4*3 1895 10,023 3'9 1896 ........ 11,675 2*1 1897 - - - 14,726 2-2 1898 ........ 16,116 2*2 1899 ....... 15,625 2*2 1900 ........ 16,058 3'6 1901 - ..... 14,667 4*0 1902 ------- 15,660 4-1 II.—Eeady-made Tailoring. Mean Percentage of Members of the Amalgamated Clothiers' Operatives' Union and London Clothiers' Cutters' Union reported as Unemployed from 1899 to 1902. Yeak. Mean Membership. Mean Percentage returned as Unemployed. 1899 ........ 1,528 0*8 1900 ........ 1,767 0-5 1901........ 1,778 1*1 1902 ........ 1,657 1*2 Note.—The above is based on returns from two societies, one of which (the Amalgamated Clothiers' Operatives)? with a membership of-1,308, returns all members who are wholly unemployed, whether receiving "out-of-work" benefit or not. The other society (Clothiers' Cutters) with membership of 349, only returns those receiving out-of-work benefit, having no means of ascertaining the others, if any. (Members are entitled to out-of-work benefit for 36 days in any one year.) Note.—The above is based on returns from two societies, one of which (the Amalgamated Clothiers' Operatives)? with a membership of-1,308, returns all members who are wholly unemployed, whether receiving "out-of-work" benefit or not. The other society (Clothiers' Cutters) with membership of 349, only returns those receiving out-of-work benefit, having no means of ascertaining the others, if any. (Members are entitled to out-of-work benefit for 36 days in any one year.) 6144. q 2Appendix, 20 ■ APPENDIX: XVI.—WAGES IN FURNISHING TRADES. A.—Statistical Summary of Changes in Rates of Wages, 1893—1902. [So far as reported to the Labour Department of the Board of Trade.] Increases. Decreases. Total. Year. Workpeople affected. Weekly Average Increase per Head Workpeople affected. Weekly Average Decrease per Head Workpeople affected. Net average weekly change per Head of those affected. pf those affected. of those affected. Increase. Decrease. No. s. d. No. s. d. No. s. d. s. d* 1893 - 312 1 9J 305 - 64 • 617 - 7| — 1894 - 537 1 9J 516 2 11| 1,053 — - 6f 1895 - 606 1 4J 780 2 8£ 1,386 — - 11 1896 - 13,705 2 - — — 13,705 2 - — 1897 - 6,701 1 6J 200 2 14 6,901 1 5 — 1898 - 2,918 i Hi 180 3 1 3,098 1 7| __ 1899 3,269 i n — — 3,269 1 74 — 1900 - 11,827 - H — — 11,827 - H — 1901 - 1,086 1 101 269 2 8£ 1,355 - HI — 1902 . 563 2 4 93 . 4 - 656 1 2J — Total in 10 years* , 30,571 i iii 1,183 2 8 i 31,754 1 9} — *This total represents" "the number of separate individuals after allowing for those whose wages underwent more than one change during the ten years.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 21 XVI.—Wages >in- Furnishing Trades—continued. Appendix. B.—Principal Changes, 1893-1902. Locality. Bristol Manchester Yorkshire Lancashire Manchester and Bolton Birmingham - Leicester - London - Scotland - Leeds Manchester Birmingham - Bristol' - London - Edinburgh and Leith Glasgow - Newcastle-on-Tyne - Liverpool - Bristol Newcastle-on-Tyne - Leeds Birmingham - Lancashire London - Newcastle-on-Tyne - Liverpool - Manchester Edinburgh Occupation. Number affected. No important changes. Cabinet makers ... - Wood packing case makers Cabinet makers, French polishers, &c. Do. do. Packing ease makers Cabinet and chair makers and carvers Cabinet makers, upholstereiv, French polishers, &c. French polishers ... - Cabinet makers - Do. French polishers, &c. Do...... Do...... French polishers .... Cabinet makers .... French polishers - Do. - Cabinet makers, upholsterers, French polishers. Packing-box makers Cabinet makers, upholsterers, French polishers. Cabinet makers - - 1 French polishers - Cabinet makers .... Do. - - Do. shop fitters, French polishers. Cabinet makers and carvers Do. Do. Do. sterers. Upholsterers Do. French polishers and French polishers and shop-fitters carver?, and uphol- 300 500 474 1/280 451) 500 150 1,800 2,500 3,300 67 300 120 200 180 2,500 730 200 283 250 300 120 300 305 469 1,800 8,000 196 150 120 150 Change. (Deoi-eases are in UaLc».) Decrease of 10 per cent. off piece ^ (X/V&S% ^6fi'ft)* ^er ^l0Ur to Advance in time rates mostly of id. per hour. Advance in time rates mostly of \d. per hour. Advance of §d. per hour (6M to Advance of ^d. per hour and 5 per cent, on piece rates. Advance of about 10 per cent. Advance of Jd. per hour (8d. to 8 id.). Advance to a minimum wage of 9d. per hour. Advance in time rates mostly of \d. per hour. Advance of W, per hour. Advance of \d. per hour. Advance of \d. per hour (7\d. to od%). Advance of 10 per cent, in piece rates. Advance of Id. per hour. Advance of \d. per hour. Advance of \d. per hour on time rates and of 7J per cent, on piece rates. Decrease of \d. per hour (8d. ta Advance of id, per hour. Advance of id. per hour (8M. to 9d.). Advance of \d. per hour (7\d. to 8 d.). Decrease of 10 per cent. off piece rates. Advance of \d. per hour and 7£ per cent, on piece rates. Advance of \d. per hour. Advance of id. per hour (8d, to 82^. )• Advance in time rates mostly of icl. per hour. Advance of id. per hour. Advance of \d. per hour. Advance of Is, 6d. per week. Advance of id. per hour (9d to 9\d.). Advance of \d. per hour (7M to 8d,).22 APPENDIX : Appendix. XVII—WAGES IN BOOT AND SHOE TRADES. A.---Statistical Summary of Changes in Rates of Wages, 1893-1902. [So far as reported to the Labour Department of the Board of Trade. ] Increases. Decreases. Total, Ye ah. Workpeople affected. Weekly Average Increase per Head of those affected. Workpeople affected. Weekly Average Decrease per Head of those affected, Workpeople affected. Net Average Weekly Change per Head of those affected. ' ' Increase. Decrease. t - . " " No. s. d. No. s. d. No. s. d. s. d. 1893 - 3,475 1 6f — 3,475 1 6f — 1894 - 2,663 2 If — — 2,663 2 If . ~ 1895 * - : - : - 1,627 1 7f — ' — 1,627 1 7f — 1896 - - - 1,585 l 114 700 2 If 2,285 - 84 — 1897 - - . - 1,178 1 10 — — 1,178 1 10 — 1898 - 71 l - — — 71 1 - — 1899 - - 1,378 1 5i 500 2 6 1,878 - 4f — 1900 - ' - 4,814 ,2 3i — — 4,814 2 34 — 1901 4,479 2 7f 9 - 6 4,488 2 7f — 1902 - - 71 2 5i 500 1 54 571 — - 114 Total in 10. years* 18,023 2 4| 1,009 2 2f 19,032 2 If — * This total represents the number of separate individuals, after allowing for those whose wages underwent more ;than one: change during the ten years.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 23 XYIL—Wages in Boot and Shoe Trades—continued. Appendix. B.— Principal Changes, 1893-1902. N um bers affected. Year. Locality. Occupation. Rex!adeade BesP°ke' Change. (Decreases ore in italics.) 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 Leicester Leeds - Northampton Rushden, Higham Fer- rers, und Irthling- borough. Edinburgh Glasgow Belfast - Leeds - Bristol - KingSAvood Leicester Leeds - Norwich Glasgow Birmingham N or thamptonshire Clickers - Clickers - Pressmen - Lasters and finishers Lasters and finishers Clickers - Pressmen Boot and shoe makers Pump boot and slipper makers. Boot and shoe makers Clickers - Lasters and finishers Lasters and finishers Lasters and finishers Clickers - Pressmen Jewish clipper makers Clickers and pressmen Boot and shoe makers (hand workers). No im Makers and finishers Operatives 600 -'250 to 300 200 300 to 350 80 to 100 30 300 240 350 400 500 700 300 200 600 portant chan 500 1,000 Advance of 5 to 7i per cent, on piece rates. Adoption of minimum wage of 25s. per week. Wages before change, 20s. to 23s. Adoption of minimum wage of 23s. per week. Wages before change, 20s, to 22s. Minimum weekly wage of 28s. adopted. Wages before change averaged 25s. Minimum weekly wage of 21s. adopted. Wages before change averaged 24s. Minimum weekly wage of 25s. adopted, Wag«s before change averaged 23s. Minimum weekly wage of 22s. adopted. Wages before change averaged 20s. 200 Advance of 10 per cent, on piece rates. — Uniform list adopted. About 7^ per cent, increase, 135 ! Advance in piece rates, stated to* increase average wages by ! about 3s. per week. — ! Minimum wage advanced from I 25s. to 26s. per week. Minimum wage advanced to 28s. per week, stated to be equal to an average advance of 2s. Minimum weekly wage advanced to 28s. per week. Before change. 26s. Reduction of from 5 to 15 per centv on piece rates. Minimum wage advanced to 28s* per week. Minimum before change, 26s. Minimum wage advanced to 25s. per week. Minimum before change, 23s. Decrease off piece rates ofZd. and 6d. per dozen. — Advance of 5 per cent. 230 Amended price list, giving ad- vance of 8 to 10 per cent. Reduction oflbper cent, off piece rates. Advance of ^d. per pair on machine-made army boots.24 APPENDIX : XYII.—Wages in Boot and Shoe Tkades—continued. Numbers affected. Change. Year. Locality. Occupation. Ready-made Trade. Bespoke. (Decreases are in italics. )— 1900 Leeds - Slipper makers 150 — Advance of 3d. and 6d. per dozen in piece rates. Clieker& - Pressmen 260 50 — Advance of Is. per week in mini- mum wage—26s. to 27s. Advance of Is. per week on mini- mum wage—23s, to 24s. Rivetters and finishers • 800 — Advance'of 5 per cent, on piece rates. Liverpool Boot and shoe makers 150 New statement adopted, stated to be equal to an advance of 12J per cent, on new work, and 7| per cent, on repairs. Manchester - Slipper makers 230 — Revised price list adopted, stated to be an increase of from Is. 6d. to 3s. per week. • London Boot and shoe makers — 1,000 Advance of about 10 per cent, in piece rates. i Northampton Clickers - Pressmen 1,000 500 — Advance in minimum of 2s. per week—26s. to 28s. Advance of 3s. per week in mini- mum—22s. to 25s. " l Bristol - Clickers - 75 — Advance to a minimum wage of 27s. 6d. per week. Wages before change, 26s. Pressmen - - - - | 25 — Advance to a minimum wage of 24s. 6d. per week. Wages before change, 23s. 1901 London Boot and shoe operatives (Jewish). 1,560 — Advance in piece rates of from 10 to 12^ per cent. N o rthamptonsh ire Army boot makers - 400 — Advance of 6d. per pair on hand- sewn army boots. Army boot makers - 1,300 — Advance of 10 per cent, on hob- nailed and steel-billed boot*. .. ••• ' ; Leeds - Clickers - Pressmen - 260 50 — Advance of Is. per week in mini- mum—27s. to 28s. Advance of Is. per week in mini- mum—24s. to 25s. . 1902 Northamptonshire Boot lasters 500 — decrease in piece rates of Id. and 2d. per -nair on army work. XYII.—Wages in Boot and Shoe Tkades—continued.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 25 XVIII.—WAGES IN TAILORING TRADE (BESPOKE ONLY).+ Appendix, A.—Statistical Summary of Changes in Bates of Wages, 1893—1902. Increases. Decreases. Total. Year. Workpeople affected. Weekly Average Increase per Head of Workpeople affected. Weekly Average Decrease per Head of Woikpeople afiected. Net Average Weekly Change per Head of those affected. those affected. those affected. Increase. Decrease. No. s. d. No. s. d. No. s. d. s. d. 1893 - 94 1 5i — — 94 1 5i — 1894 - 789 2 10J — — 789 2 10J — 1895 - 398 3 5 — — 398 3 5 — 1896 - 929 2 8J — — 929 2 8£ — 1897 - 571 2 If — — 571 2 If — 1898 - 981 1 10 — — 981 1 10 — 1899 - 878 2 2f — — 878 2 2| — 1900 - 794 3 -i -- — 794 3 — 1901 - 786 2 6£ — — 786 2 6J — 1902 - 2,299 2 5 — — 2,299 2 5 — Total—10 years* 7,535 2 9| — — 7,535 2 9f — A.—Statistical Summary of Changes in Bates of Wages, 1893—1902. * This total represents the number of separate individuals after allowing for those whose wages underwent more than one change during the ten years. / * This total represents the number of separate individuals after allowing for those whose wages underwent more than one change during the ten years. / t N.B.—There are no materials for giving a statistical account of changes of wag6s in the Ready-made Tailoring Trade, owing to the system on which the trade is carried on. 6144. I)26 APPENDIX: Appendix. XV1IL—Wages in Tailoring Trade (Bespoke only)t—continued. B.—Principal Changes in Bates of Wages reported to the Board of Trade in 1893-1902. Year. Locality. Number affected by Particulars of Change. Increases. Decreases, 1893- - Keighley 54 _ Increase of 5 per cent. 1894 - Blyth..... 60 — Increase of 5 per cent. Bolton - 200 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (5d. to 5\d.). Chorley - 60 — Increase of 2s. per week. * York ----- 116 — Increase of 3s. per week. Bangor 70 — Increase of \d, per hour on "log" rate (4\d. to 5c?.). Greenock - 100 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (5d. to 5^d.). 1895 - Douglas - 65 — Increase of 15 per cent. Edinburgh - 120- — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (5|c?. to 6c?.). 1896 - Cirencester - 45 — Increase of 25. 4td. per week. Potteries - 100 — Increase of 5 per cent. Wolverhampton • 75 — Increase of about 12 per cent. Aberdeen - 400 — Increase on time and piece rates. 1897 - Accrington - 100 — Increase of 10 per cent. Blyth..... 63 — Increase of 2J per cent. Leamington 74 — Increase of 5 per cent. Paisley - 142 — Increase of \d. per hour on " log " rate. 1898 - Weston-super-Mare - 60 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (4Jc?. to5d.). Arbroath - 65 Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (4%d. to 5d.). Belfast - 650 — Increase of 5 per cent. 1899 - Limerick ... - Blyth - 70 70 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (4d. to 4 jc?.), with modifications in log. Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (4\d. to 5d,). Chester - 150 — Increase of 7i per cent. Bo'ness - 43 — Increase of \d. per hour on " log " rate (4\d. to 6d.). Falkirk - 55 — Increase of %d. per hour on " log " rate. Leith - - 47 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (5d. to 5\d.). 1900 - - Durham - 70 — Increase of about 2s. per week. Dunfermline 70 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate {5d. to Greenock - 92 — Increase of 12J per cent. Hamilton - 86 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (4\d. to 5d.). Kilmarnock 110 — Increase of 12| per cent. 1901 - Cheltenham 140 — Increase of 7^ per cent. Lancaster - 120 — Increase of about 12| per cent. Rhondda Valley - 72 — Increase of about 15 per cent. Ayr - - - - - Kirkcaldy - 125 60 — Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rates (4Jd, 5d., and o^d. to 5d.} 5\d.y and 5%d.). Increase of \d. per hour on " log " rate (k\d. to 5d.). 1902 - Perth..... Aberdare Valley - 80 110 — Increase of \d. per hour on " log " rates (4\d. and 5d. to 5d. and 5^d,). Increase of \d. per hour on "log" rate (4\d. to 5d.). Other districts in England and Wales (Aberystwith, Llangefni, Liverpool, Leigh, Neath, Mountain Ash). Glasgow - 168 1,625 Increase of \d. per hour on " log " rate. Increase of \d. per hour on " log " rate. Paisley - 140 — Increases of \d. and per hour on " log " rates. Other Scottish towns (Alloa, Brechin, Coatbridge,Mussel- burgh, Perth and Hawick). 166 Advance of \d. per hour on "log" rates, or its equivalent. B.—Principal Changes in Bates of Wages reported to the Board of Trade in 1893-1902. * See note f on last page. * See note f on last page.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 27 EXPOKTS OF APPAREL AND BOOTS AND SHOES. XIX.—Statement showing the Exports from the United Kingdom of Apparel and Slops, and of Boots and Shoes in the under-mentioned Years. Apparel and Slops. Leather Boots and Shoes. Years. Yalue. Dozen Pairs. Yalue. 1888 .... £. 4,658,589 661,907 £. 1,802,726 1889 - - - - - 4,978,513 665,909 1,789,342 1890 - - - 5,035,697 695,802 1,898,290 1891 - 5,150,931 706,517 1,909,326 1892 ..... 4,847,091 659,911 1,699,821 1893 ..... 4,259,650 693,049 1,697,232 1894 ..... 4,122,863 ~ 668,563 1,614,076 1895 ..... 4,525,313 674,620 1,580,680 1896 - 5,229,132 | 745,018 L 1,799,030 1897 .... 4,980,176 | . 642,264 | 1,578,470 1898 ..... 4,695,660 638,920 1,493,931 • 1899 - 4,636,444 603,498 1,426,608 1900 - - - - .5,286,746 630,244 1,479,148 1901 - - - - - 5,571,259 678,543 1,653,190 1902 „ . - - 6,^97,550 789,060 1,896,232 Appendix. 6144.28 APPENDIX : Appendix. XX.—Statement showing the Quantity of Leather Boots and Shoes exported from the United Kingdom to the under-mentioned Countries in each of the Years 1893 to 1902, so far as the particulars can be given. Years. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896. 1897. 1898. 1899. 1900. 1901. 1902, Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. 'Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. Dozen Pairs. To Germany - 2,974 3,272 3,843 3,529 3,656 2,554 3,435 5,788 3,818 3,727 „ Holland - 9,807 16,299 13,364 17,902 15,983 17,857 18,033 18,771 17,335 18,326 „ Belgium = 4,436 4,074 4,446 4,290 4,957 6,598 5,087 4,595 4,688 4,653 „ France - 1,428 1,513 1,487 3,579 5,224 4,828 5,540 5,468 3,411 4,371 „ East Africa : Portuguese Possessions. 2,145 2,313 4,029 : 4,818 5,396 6,019 3,419 2,039 3,765 5,849 „ Chile..... 13,512 6,564 21,191 19,653 12,597 3,318 6,214 3,836 5,287 3,557 „ Brazil..... 53,332 57,866 61,077 51,680 34,023 23,215 14,036 10,607 7,196 4,846 „ Other Foreign Countries - 20,690 20,783 16,336 21,654 20,812 18,566 21,785 19,647 15,923 15,571 Total to Foreign Countries 108,324 112,684 125,773 127,105 102,648 82,955 77,549 70,751 61,423 60,900 1 lo South Africa 219,019 207,846 204,197 262,279 265,189 260,729 236,307 241,379 328,463 473,647 / British East Indies 34,636 29,752 27,659 31,527 28,578 37,765 51,529 45,460 46,125 48,951 „ Australasia- 242,107 224,472 234,948 227,304 173,023 179,396 166,733 205,636 180,727 141,187 „ British West India Islands and British Guiana. 65,026 66,759 59,217 69,004 44,838 52,475 49,037 43,673 36,594 35,614 „ Other British Possessions - 23,937 27,050 22,826 27,799 27,988 25,600 22,343 23,345 25,211 28,539 Total to British Possessions 584,725 555,879 548,847 617,913 539,616 555,965 525,949 559,493 617,120 727,9381 Total - - - 693,049 668,563 674,620 745,018 642,264 638,920 603,498 630,244 678,543 788,838BOYAIi COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 29 XXI.—Statement showing the Value of Leather Boots and Shoes exported from the United Kingdom to the under-mentioned Countries in each of the Years 1893 to 1902, so far as the particulars can be given. , Years. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896. 1897. 1898. 1899,. i 1900. 1901. 1902. £. £. £. £. £. £. i £. £. £. £. To Germany 8,369 8,937 9,433 8,892 8,581 6,627 8,005 14,194 9,902 9,324 ,, Holland 22,966 39,239 32,339 41,680 37,553 38,175 39,816 38,358 37,626 37,399 „ Belgium 11,380 11,105 12,422 10,347 10,464 11,362 10,668 10,094 • 8,975 8,370 „ France- 6,370 6,066 5,685 13,992 22,210 27,433 33,079 35,796 22,824 26,453 „ East Africa: Portu- guese Possessions. 7,220 7,511 12,903 14,814 17,230 18,867 11,533 8,151 13,914 22,087 „ Chile - 35,116 13,892 34,623 40,676 27,160 9,061 8,046 8,764 9,468 7,906 „ Brazil - 153,454 185,789 195,136 158,717 111,973 73,079 49,106 39,967 31,353 '21,524 „ Other Foreign Counties. 62,321 62,194 50,980 71,170 63,872 61,582 68,729 66,376 53,138 ; 52,984 Total to Foreign! « Countries - J 307,196 334,733 353,521 360,288 299,043 246,186 228,982 221,700 187,200 186,047 To South Africa 567,263 521,621 516,917 672,673 667,910 636,752 581,641 615,148 879,475 1,237,272 „ British East Indies 94,062 78,144 72,127 83,556 74,173 92,639 131,187 118,420 125,226 129,637 „ Australasia - 523,558 473,929 457,904 481,596 381,907 359,915 328,742 381,108 329,187 213,975 „ British W«-st India Islands and British Guiana. 144,201 140,337 120,923 136,100 85,607 95,387 91,210 80,715 67,612 61,984 „ Other British Pos- sessions. b' Yr" bbea 60,952 65,312 59,288 64,817 69,830 63,052 64,846 62,057 64,490 67,689 \poq Total to British \£ Possessions - j ' 1,390,036 1,279,343 1,227,159 1,438,742 1,279,427 1,247,745 1,197,626 1,257,448 1,465,990 1,710,557 Total - £. 1,697,232 1,614,076 1,580,680 1,799,030 1,578,470 1,493,931 1,426,608 1,479,148 1,653,190 1,896,60430 APPENDIX : Appendix, XXII.-—Statement showing the Value of Apparel and Slops of British Manufacture exported from the United Kingdom to the under-mentioned Countries, in each of the Years 1893 to 1902. Years. Countries. Germany - Holland - Belgium - France Egypt Foreign East Africa (Portuguese Pos- sessions). United States - Other Foreign Coun- tries. Total to Foreign \£ Countries -/ Channel Islands British West Africa - Cape of Good Hope and Natal. British East Indies - Australasia Canada and New- foundland. British West India Islands and British Guiana. Other British Pos- sessions. Total to British \£ Possessions -/ Total - £. 1893. 1894. 1895. 1896. 1897. 1898. 1899. 1900. 1901. 1902. £. £. £. | £. £. £. £. £. £. £. 55,615 65,758 : 77,002 91,155 74,853 70,676 68,133 73,197 70,067 72,930 25,679 25,248 ; 30,981 31,299 34,705 32,982 29,313 41,347 31,911 27,675 31,062 48,753 62,713 59,474 65,110 63,675 70,188 87,005 68,024 55,106 59,389 72,487 95,915 112,762 109,184 94,172 93,972 111,965 94,691 91,940 51,893 50,716 29,253 35,303 59,321 36,370 22,155 34,525 40,973 37,653 17,818 28,562 49,649 72,898 62,390 49,098 48,540 48,657 69,791 88,262 102,270 79,480 105,272 68,321 54,380 46,461 57,727 67,656 •74,752 76,919 300,651 251,982 i 271,718 301,234 266,822 269,785 275,617 287,570 281,707 263,457 644,377 622,986 j 722,503 772,446 726,765 663,219 665,645 751,922 731,916 713,942 35,268 36,937 43,369 43,403 46,492 49,094 69,923 43,606 43,143 50,073 28,537 31,596 28,089 38,323 45,189 56,154 54,228 51,179 55,626 61,204 1,290,796 1,254,251 1,467,026 1,867,564 1 827,072 1,657,388 1,447,394 1,646,822 2,198,225 3,063,856 161,356 141,482 149,365 167,115 148,397 157,459 189,770 201,133 : j 195,762 207,816 1,502,909 1,507,927 1,523,113 1,733,375 1,639,973 1,547,013 1,614,571 1,967,452 1,723,216 1,542,615 342,091 297,901 350,953 343,675 300,532 322,192 313,421 349,668 376,469 400,040 203,894 182,941 185,520 200,979 155,641 163,749 177,198 158,083 158,602 170,210 50,422 46,842 i 55,375 62,252 90,115 79,462 104,294 116,881 ! 88,300 87,463 3,615,273 3,499,877 3,802,810 4,456,686 4,253,411 4,032,441 3,970,799 4,534,824 4,839,343 5,583,277 4,259,650 4,122,863 4,525,313 5,229,132 4,980,176 4,695,660 4,636,444 5,286,746 5,571,259 6,297,219 Years. Foreign East Africa (Portuguese Pos- sessions). United States - Other Foreign Coun- tries. Total to Foreign \£ Countries -/ Total to British \£ Possessions -/ Total - £.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 31 XXIII.—For Alien Population in certain Foreign Countries and tlie United Kingdom. Appendix. [Based on the Official Statistics of the various Countries.] See Beport, paragraph 13V. XXIV.—Statement showing the number of Pauper Patients in the London County Asylums on May 1st, 1002, and the number of such Patients who were Aliens ; showing also the number of Patients in the Imbecile _ Asylums under the control of the Metropolitan Asylums Board on the 10th May, 1902, and the number thereof who were Aliens. Number of Pauper Patients. Alien Patients. Males. Females. Total. Number. Percentage of Total. London County Asylums ... - 6,224 9,023 15,247 458 3-0 Imbecile Asylums under the control of the\ Metropolitan Asylums Board - - / 2,858 2,971 5,829 96 1*6 Total..... ' 9,082 11,994 21,076 554 2*6* Percentages of Total Population and of\ Alien Population of London (1901) - J — — 0*46 0*41 — * According to the Census returns the proportion borne by the alien population of the Metropolis to the total population of the Metropolis was 2*98 per cent. * According to the Census returns the proportion borne by the alien population of the Metropolis to the total population of the Metropolis was 2*98 per cent.32 APPENDIX : Appendix. XXV.—Statement showing the number of Aliens to whom Poor Law Relief was granted in the Metropolis during the __' year 1902, and the kind of Relief given in each case ; showing also the proportion per cent, which the number of Aliens relieved bore to the total Alien population. District. Borough of Stepney:— Mile End Old Town St. George-in-the-East Stepney - Whitechapel - Total Borough of Bethnctl Green Borough of Westminster:— Westminster - Alien Population. Number of Aliens relieved during year 1902. Indoor. 54,310 St. George's Hanover Square Strand....... Total - - Borough of Holborn:— Holborn • - - St. Giles-in-the-Fields and St. George, \ Bloomsbury. J Total - - - Best of London:— Chelsea....... City of London Fulham - Greenwich Hackney - Hammersmith Lambeth - Lewisham - Paddington - Poplar - St. Giles, Camberwell - St. John, Hampstead St. Leonard, Shoreditch St. Mary Abbotts, Kensington St. Mary, Islington St. Marylebone St, Olave's, Bermondsey St. Pancras - Southwark Wandsworth - Woolwich ... - All Rest of London Total London 4,634 11,831 5,706 58,896 135,377 50 145 26 191 Outdoor. Medical only. 462 543 20 447 412 1,472 Other Outdoor Relief. 25 6 10 1 42 Sent to Lunatic or Imbecile Asylums, but not otherwise relieved. 21 16 30 67 15 38 13 31 82 75 124 3 24 109 5 127 7 5 15 8 1 22 26 5 38 20 91 39 28 1 577 1,210 15 10 40 2 42 13 2 15 19 2 1 1 6 2 5 2 11 1 15 5 79 5 9 79 7 8 7 14 7 4 7 1 15 3 4 172 1,611 245 11 1 14 18 2 1 2 7 7 12 2 1 80 168 Total. 558 710 56 669 1,993 43 51 16 36 103 103 84 187 10 41 218 15 149 15 6 53 15 5 30 28 18 63 22 133 49 33 1 908 3,234 Percentage of Alien Popula- tion relieved during the year. 3-7 0-9 3 3 1-5 2-4 Note.—The population of London in 19G ! was 4,579,107, and the mean number of paupers relieved was 125,000. According to the best estimate that can be made, this mean number corresponds to a total of about 364,000 persons relieved during the course of the year (see P.P. 265 of 1892), giving a percentage of 7*9 of the total population relieved during the year.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN MIGRATION. 33 a rit)p7ini"v XXVI.—Statement showing the Number and Nationality of the Aliens to whom Poor Law Relief was granted in__ the Metropolis during the Year 1902. Number of Aliens Relieved. District. Austrains ♦ and Hungarians. Germans. Italians. Russians and Poles. Roumanians. Other Nationalities. Total. Borough of Stepney ■: Mile End Old Town 21 54 — 465 1 17 558 St. George-in-the-East - 4 45 — 608 46 7 710 Stepney • — 19 — 28 — 9 56 Whitechapel - 30 58 — 519 11 41 669* Total - - - 55 176 — 1,620 58 74 1,993* Borough ofBethnal Green - — 4 1 38 — — 43 Borough of Westminster: Westminster - 5 12 10 11 — 13 51 St. George's, Hanover Square. Strand - 2 3 10 3 7 2 3 _ 8 14 16 36 Total - - - 7 25 20 16 — 35 103 Borough of Holborn: Holborn - — 17 76 2 — 8 103 St. Giles-in-the-Fields and St. George, Bloomsbury. } • 28 5 5 2 43 84 Total - - - 1 45 81 7 2 51 187 Rest of London: Chelsea - — 2 • _ 1 — J 4 City of London — — — — — — — Fulham - — 6 — — — 3 lot Greenwich — 15 11 5 . ~ 10 41 ' Hackney - . - 17 101 2 74 1 23 218 Hammersmith 3 3 2 6 — 1 15 Lambeth 7 39 27 5 — 71 149 Lewisham - - — 8 2 — . — 5 15 Paddington - — 2 3 — — 11 0 Poplar - 2 30 4 3 — 14 53 St. Giles, Camberwell - — 8 3 — — 4 15 St. John, Hampstead — — — • 1 — 4 5 St. Leonard, Shoreditch 1 9 — 20 — — 30 St. Mary Abbotts, Ken- sington. St. Mary, Islington — 14 4 2 4 1 _ 12 9 28 18 St. Marylebone 4 30 7 4 — 18 63 St. Olave's, Bermondsey — 7 3 2 — 10 22 St. Pan eras - 7 37 17 18 — 54 133 Southwark 1 21 9 8 — 10 49 Wandsworth - 3 1 1 — 15 33 Woolwich — — 1 — — — 1 All Rest of London - 45 349 98 149 1 265 908+ Total London - - 108 599 200 1,830 61 425 3,234*+ Number of Aliens Relieved. * Includes 10 aliens whose nationality was not ascertained. + Includes 1 alien whose nationality was not ascertained. * Includes 10 aliens whose nationality was not ascertained. + Includes 1 alien whose nationality was not ascertained. 6144. EM APPENDIX : Appendix. XXVII.—Statement comparing the Number of Aliens to whom Poor Law Relief was granted in the Metropolis during the'Years L901 and 1902, distinguishing the Kind of Relief granted in each Case. IN umber of Aliens Relieved. Alien Population of i Outdoor. . Sent to Lunatic District. Metropolis as Enumerated at Census of 1901. Indoor. Medical only. Other Outdoor Relief. or xmueuiie Asylums but not otherwise Relieved. Total. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. Borough of: ! - Stepney - 54,310 512 412 1,590 1,472 14 42 t j 67 2,116 1,993 Bethnal Green Westminster - 4,634 11,831 75 1 15 82 * 15 3 138* 8 8 .2 ^ . } ass ( 5 10 138 75' 43 103 Holborn - 5,706 79 124 - 42 - 15 £ ] B ^ © O 6 79 187 Rest of London 58,896 308 577 14 79 36 172 / 80 358 908 Total - - 135,377 974 1,210 1,604* 1,611 188* i 245 t 168 2,766f 3,234 * Medical relief was not separated from other outdoor relief in the return from Bethnal Green in 1901. In the returns for 1901 from some of the Poor Law Unions, aliens transferred to Lunatic and Imbecile Asylums, bu ^not otherwise relieved, were included but not separately distinguished. In other returns such aliens were excluded. It has since been ascertained that the total number of aliens so included was 40, and of those excluded about 90. It is not possible, however, to give particulars of the nationality of these aliens, or of the headings under whicli those included in the totals were returned. <ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 35 XXVIII.—Statement shewing the Number and Nationality of the Aliens to whom Poor Law Relief was granted in the Metropolis during the Years 1901 and 1902. Number of Aliens Relieved. District. Austrians and Hun- garians. Germans. Italians. Russians and Poles. Rou- manians. Other Nationali- ties. Not Specified. Total. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. 1901. 1902. Jorough of Stepney 12 55+ 63 < 176+ — — 1,851 1,620+ * , 58+ 28 74 162 10 2,116 1,993 „ Bethnal Green - > — — — 4 — 1 121 38 h- — • — — 17 — 138 43 , Westminster :2 7 19 25 18 20 1 16 * — - 28 35 7 • 75 103 „ Holborn 2 1 28- 45 14 81 2 7 * 2 23 51 10 — 79 187 ttest of London 15 45 128 349 24 98 51 149 * 1 76 265 64 1 358 908 Total - - - 31 108+ 238 599+ 56 200 2,026 1,830+ * 61 155 425 260 11 2,766J 3,234 Number of Aliens Relieved. * The totals shown under the head of " Not Specified " possibly include some Roumanians. + There is reason to suppose that in 1901 some German, Austrian, and Roumanian Jews may have been entered as "Russian and Polish Jews" in two of the Unions in the Borough of Stepney. This would account for the increase under these three heads and the liminution under the head " Russians and Poles." The total of these four nationalities relieved in the Borough of Stepney in 1901 and L902 was 1,926 and 1,909 respectively. t See footnote to Table XXVII. 6144.36 APPENDIX : Appendix. XXIX.—-Statement showing the Number of Aliens to whom. Poor Law Relief was granted in the under-mentioned Districts during the year 1902, and the kind of Relief given in each case. District. Birmingham - Cardiff Leeds Liverpool Manchester Sheffield - Poor Law Unions included in District. Number of Aliens granted. Indoor Relief. Outdoor Relief. Medical Relief only. Birmingham - Aston - Cardiff - Leeds Bramley Holbeck Hunslet - Liverpool Toxteth Park West Derby - Manchester - Salford - Chorlton Prestwich Sheffield Ecclesall Bierlow - Total 36 84 41 451 103 717 72 12 53 .6 143 Other Outdoor Relief. Number of Aliens sent bo Lunatic or Imbecile Asylums but not otherwise relieved. 12 372 31 11 18 453 27 24 11 68 Total Number of Aliens relieved during 1902. 121 160* 449 619f 131 21 1,5013: * Includes 40 vagrants (nationality unknown). t Includes 80 vagrants and 167 " Emigrants passing through Liverpool . . . cost of their relief was repaid by shipping companies." I Includes 120 vagrants and 167 Emigrants (see above footnotes).ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 37 XXX.—Statement showing the Number and Nationality of the Aliens to whom Poor Law Belief was granted Appendix in the under-mentioned Districts during the year 1902. Poor Law Number of Aliens Relieved. District. Unions included in District. Austrians and Hun- garians. Germans. Italians. Russians and Poles. Rou- manians. Other Nation- alities. Nation- alities not specified. Total. ( Birmingham l Birmingham - -J Aston - 5 3 5 82 1 _ 25 121 Cardiff - Cardiff 5 14 14 12 — 75 40 160 ( Leeds - Bramley \ Leeds - - / Holbeek > _ 18 430 1 — 449 V Hunslet Liverpool - ) 18 54 21 81 — 365* — 539* Liverpool Toxteth Park - > 1 1 lit 21+ 4+ 3+ — 41+ — 80+ West Derby J Manchester \ Salford Manchester - { f Chorlton Prestwich - Sheffield - ) 1 ) 6 22 10 32 1 49 11 131 Sheffield- -4 Ecclesall Bierlow 1 2 19 ~ ~ 21 Total - 45 132 56 659 2 531 76 1,501 * Including 167 "Emigrants passing through Liverpool . . . cost of their relief was repaid by the shipping companies." * Including 167 "Emigrants passing through Liverpool . . . cost of their relief was repaid by the shipping companies." + Vagrants,38 APPENDIX : Append x. XXXI.—Statement showing the Number of Aliens to whom Poor Law Relief was grant 3d in the various Unions of the - Metropolis during the Year 1901, and the kind of Relief given in each case; showing also the proportion per cent, ragwhich the number of Aliens relieved bore to the total Alien population. District. Borough 'of Stepney Mile En4 Old.Town. - - St. George-in-the-East Stepney - - . - Whitechapel - • i - i To^al ...... , | Borough pf Bethnal Green ( - | Borough of Westminister; Westminster - , - St. George's, Hanover Squa re Strand - - ToItal Borough of Holborn : Hoi born - - i - St. Giles-in-the-Fields and St/George, \ Bloomsbury, 7 Tc^tal jRest of London : ' Chelsea - - City of London Fulliam - - Greenwich Hackney j - Hammersmith | - Lambeth - ; - Lewisham - Paddington - / - Poplar - - - - - St Giles, Camberwell - , - St. John, Hampstead St. Leonard, Shoreditch' St. Mary Abbots, Kensington St. Mary, Islington St. Marylebone St. Olave's, Bermondsey St. Pancras - Southwark - Wandsworth - Woolwich - All Rest of London Total London Number of Aliens relieved during year 1901. Per- Alien Outdoor. centage of Alien Popula- tion relieved daring the year. Population. Indoor. Medical only. Not stated to be Medical only. Not stated. Total. 167 422 _ 589 — 146 617 13 — 776 — — 14 15 1 — 30 — — 185 536 — — 721 — 54,310 512 1,590 14 — 2,116 3-9 4,634 — 138 — 138 3 0 — 1 44 — — — 44 _ j — — J 31 — — — 31 — 11,831 75 — — — 75 06 _ 30 ~ ! _ _ '30 _ — 49 i 1 — — ,49 1 1 — 5,706 79 — — — ' :79- 1-4 — 1 34 i 2 — 1 36 1 _ — 58 — 4 - 62 — — 9 i — — 10 ! — . — 25 — — — 1 25 — ... — 9 ,7 — 5 — 14 7 — 3 — — — 3 — i 17 2 15 — 34 — 21 — — — 21 I ! — — 7 — 2 — 9 i — 38 5 3 — 46 — 15 1 — - 16 — — 30 5 5 — 40 - — 23 Q — — — 23 $ - — O 3 — —■ — 0 3 — 58,896 308 14 36 — 358 0-6 135,377 974 1,604 50 y — 2,766J 2 0 138 St. Giles-in-the-Fields and St/George, \ Note.—The population ot .London m lyui was 1, ana me mean liumuer m paupers leutsvcu wts 120,000. According to the best estimate that can be made, this mean number corresponds to a total of about 350,000 persons relieved during the course of the year. {See P.P. 265 of 1892), giving a percentage of 7*7 of the total population relieved during the year. % See footnote to Table XXVII.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 39 XXXII.—Statement showing the Number and Nationality of the Aliens to whom Poor Law Belief was granted in 'vPPen2*22 Ill 2 335 1833 - - - - - - 241 99 5 345 1894........ 179 128 — 307 1895 ........ 232 ! 177 3 412 1896 - ...... 169 87 — 256 1897 ------- 127 76 — 203 1898 ........ 134 122 1 25" 1899 ........ i 135 172 3 310 I 1900........ 100 139 9 248 tooi........ 180 203 31* 414 1902 .....- - 172 352 86 f 610 * Ot these 25 were foreigners, t Of these 84 were foreigners. 6144. F42 APPENDIX : Appendix. TABLE XXXV. Showing the Total Population of Stepney, according to the Census, in each of the five decennial periods, 1861-1901 ; also of Bethnal Green. (See in Minutes of Evidence, 10911, Table 1a). TABLE XXXV (a). Number of Persons born in foreign countries, excluding naturalised and British subjects, in the Boroughs of Stepney and of Bethnal Green, in each of the decennial periods, 1861-1901. (See in Minutes of Evidence, 10911, Table Ib.) TABLE XXXV (b). Showing the number of British subjects in the Boroughs of Stepney and Bethnal Green. (See in Minutes of Evidence, 10911, Table 1c.) TABLE XXXY (c). Showing the Number of Aliens, and Percentage to Total Population, and Number of British and Percentage to Total Population in Stepney and Bethnal Green in the Year 1901. Boroughs Total Number of Aliens. 1 ! Percentage to Total Population. Number of British. Percentage to Total Population. and Registration Districts. Popula- tion, 1901. As Enu- merated, 1901. Estimated ,by Witness. ; 1 As Enu- merated. 1901. > Estimated by ! Witness. As Enu- merated, 1901. Estimated by Witness. As Enu- merated, 1901. Estimated by Witness. Stepney: \ j Whitecliapel 78,768 29,188 345S2 37-06 43*90 49,580 44,186 62-94 56-10 St. George-in-the- East. Stepney 49,068 57,937 13,746 1,849 15,4 / 5 2,013 28*02 3-19 31-53 | 3-48 35,322 56,088 33,593 55,924 71*98 96-81 68^-7 1 96-52 Mile End Old Town. 112,827 9,527 11,099 8-44 9-84 103,300 101,728 91-56 90-16 298,600 54,310 63,169 18-19 21-15 244,290 235,431 81-81 78-85 Bethnal Green - 129,680 i 4,634 5,047 3*57 1 3-89 1 125,046 124,633 96-43 96-11KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 43 TABLE XXXVI. Appendix. Showing Excess of Births over Deaths in Stepney and Bethnal Green, and proportion of actual Increase to obtain the net outward movement of the population. Boroughs and Registration Districts. Excess of Births over Deaths, 1891-1901. Actual Increase. Proportion of actual Increase to Excess of Births over Deaths. Net Outward Movement of Population. Stepney : Per Cent. Whitechapel..... 13,653 4,214 30*87 9,439 St. George-in-the East - 7,439 3,273 44-00 4,166 Stepney..... 4,8 L7 730 15-15 4,087 Mile End Old Town 18,668 4,973 26-63 * 13,695 44,571 13,190 29-60 . 31,381 Bethnal Green..... 18,652 595 3-19 18,057 TABLE XXXVII. Showing the movement of the British Population from Stepney and Bethnal Green in 1901. (See Minutes of Evidence 10911.)44 APPENDIX. Appendix. TABLE XXXYIII. Table showing tlio Results of Inquiries made in certain Streets in the Parishes of Christchurch, Spitalfields, contained therein, together with the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants, and the Number of Houses (so where the Eent has not been Raised since 1890, with the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 9-13); per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 14-19). Parish and Street. I 1. Houses Visited. Number. 2. Number of Rooms. 3. Nationality of Landlords. British. 4. Alien. 5. Nationality of Tenants. British. Alien. 7. Houses which have changed Ownership since 1896. Christchurch, Spitalfields : Butler-street - Fashion-street Freeman-street St. Pearl-street Grey Eagle-street - Heneage-street Shepherd-street Tilley-street - Mile End New Town : Buxton-streeb Chicksand-street - Dunk street - Great Garden-street Hanbury-street Pelham- street Whitechapel: Ely-place Fieldgate-street Finch-street - Greeniield-street - Newnham-street - Old Montague-street St. Mark's-street - Scarborough-street Spelman-street Tenter-street - Tenter-street North Tenter street South Totals - 10 4 10 6 8 10 10 10 68 40 8 1 6 8 8 4 3 5 9 10 10 6 186 55 22 43 18 36 41 48 33 296 50 33 27 44 33 21 208 48 5 31 48 48 19 21 30 39 39 55 26 409 913 32 22 10 1 23 77 10 10 10 4 2 36 18 3 1 8 3 3 5 9 10 55 109 10 3 1 2 10 33 1 1 5 1 1 2 1 7 6 6 31 67 35 37 3 3 2 3 8 3 4 47 119KOtAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: 45 TABLE XXXVIII. Appendix Wtiitechapel, and Mile End New Town, as follows :—1. The Number of Houses visited and the Rooms tar as can be ascertained) which have changed Ownership since 1896 (Cols. 2-8); 2. The Total Number of Houses 3. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has been Raised since 1890, the Average Increase per Room Rents not Raised since 1890. Rents Raised since 1890. Number. Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. British. Alien. British. Alien. per Room. British. Alien. British. Alien. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18, 19. s. d. 5 — 5 5 — 5 - 9 — 5 5 — 4 4 — — 4 — — — — — — 2 — 2 1 1 8 - 9f — 8 6 2 3 3 — — 3 3 - 2 3 — — 3 4 4 — 4 4 - 5i 4 — 3 1 9 — 9 — 9 1 - 10 — 1 1 — 4 4 — 1 3 6 - H 2 4 1 5 5 5 — 5 — 5 1 2i 3 2 5 — 36 20 16 12 24 32 - H 12 20 2L 11 2 2 2 7 - 4| 1 6 7 5 1 4 — 5 3 - 11 1 2 1 2 — — — — — 5 1 4 i 2 3 1 4 6 6 — 6 3 - 2J 3 — — 3 1 1 — __ 1 5 - 3J 5 — — 5 — __ — — — 3 - 6 2 1 1 2 14 8 6 — 14 26 - 7J 14 12 3 23 8 - q 8 8 — — — __ — 1 - 4| 1 — 1 — 1 1 — __ 1 5 - 6J 2 3 1 4 1 1 — — 1 7 - 8* 6 1 — 7 1 — 1 — 1 7 - 3f — 7 5 2 — — — — — 4 1 5f 1 3 1 3 1 — 1 1 — 2 - 2J — 2 — 2 1 — 1 1 — 4 - — 4 1 3 6 — 6 — 6 3 1 4 — 3 1 2 3 — 3 3 — 7 - 7± — 7 4 3 1 1 — — 1 9 6 CD lO ! 1 9 1 5 6 6 3 15 3 12 '5 10 63 - 6f 20 43 26 9 37 65 31 34 17 48 121. - 7i 46 75 50 71 6144. G46 APPENDIX. 2mm Appendix. TABLE XXXIX. Table showing the Results of Inquiries made in certain Streets in the Pakish of Mile End Old Town, as follows i. The Number of Houses visited and the Rooms contained therein, together with the Nationality cjf Landlords and Tenants, and the Number of Houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed Ownership since (Cols. 2-8); 2. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has not been Raised since 1890, with tjhe Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 9-13); 3. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has been Ijaised since 1890, the Average Increase per Room, per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 14-] 9) j 4. The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised only once since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols, 20-25); and 5. The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised more than once since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 26-31). Houses Visited. Rents not Raised since 1890. i i Rents Raised since 1890. Rents Raised once since 1890. Rents Raised more than once since 1890. STREET. Number. Number of Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Houses which have changed Ownership since 189$. j Number. Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenant?. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Rooms. British. Alien. British. Alien. . British. Alien. British. Alien. per Room. British. Alien. British. Alien. per Room. British. Alien. British. 1 Alien. per Room. British. Alien. British. Alien. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31, Cadiz-street - 5 30 5 5 4 5 s. d, 1 1 5 5 j } 4 s. d. i -4 4 4 i j 1 s. d> - 11 1 1 Cameron-place - 5 16 — 5 - 5 5 — — — — — 5 1 3 — 5 5 ' — — — — -- — i 5 1 1 3 — 5 — 5 Clark-street - 3 1o — 3 -- 3 — — — — - — 3 3 7 — 3 — 3 — — — __ — — 3 3 7 — 3 3 Driver buildings 5 20 — 5 3 2 5 — — — — — 5(a) - lot — ■ 5 3 2 5(a) - 104 — 5 3 2 — — — — — Ernest-street - 14 84 1 13 10 4 7 — — — — — 14 - H 1 13 io ! 4 8 - 94 — 5 5 — 9 - 01 1 8 2 7 Frimley-street - 7 28 — 7 2 5 2 1 — 1 1 — 6 1 4 — 6 1 5 — — — — — — 6 1 4 — 6 1 5 Garden-street ■ 4 14 — 4 — 4 4 — — — — — 4 1 34 — i 4 ! 4 — — — — — ! 4 1 34 — 4 4 John's-place 5 17 5 — — 5 5 — — — — • — 5 - Hi 5 ! ! 5 4 - 9 4 — — 4 1 1 6 1 -- — 1 Mulberry-street 1 60 1 8 1 8 3 5 1 4 1 4 4 - 2J — 4 — 4 „ — — Ir lformation : riot availab le. i A^yrdle-street - *0 60 10 — 6 4 — . 10 10 — 6 4 — — — — — — j __ — — — ___ — — Mew-road - - * 10 79 10 — 3 7 ~ 10 10 — 3 7 — — — — — — — — — — — __ ! .... — — Oxford-street - 6 44 6 — I 5 — — — — — — 6 1 5 6 — 1 5 3 1 44 3 — 1 2 3 1 54 3 — 3 Plumber's-row - 10 46 1 9 1 9 — — — — — — 10 - 5 1 9 1 9 — — Information not availab le. Salisbury-street 5 30 — 5 5 — — 4 — 4 4 — 1 - 2 — 1 1 — 1 - 2 — 1 | 1 — — — — Settles-street - 6 30 6 — o 4 — 5 5 — 1 4 1 I 3 1 — I — — — Information not availab le Single-place - 5 15 5 — 5 -A- — 3 3 — 3 — 2 - 8 2 — 2 1 — — — — 2 - 8 2 2 -- Smith-place - 6 18 — 6 2 4 6 — — ~ — V 6 1 4 — 6 2 ! — — — ! 6 1 4 - 6 2 4 Sydney-street - 1 4 — 1 1 - 1 — — — — — 1 1 - — ! I i 1 — 1 1 - — : l 1 — — — — — Underwood-street 1 4 1 1 — — — — —r — — 1 - 6 1 i 1 — — _ Information not availab le. | Wellesley-street 5 25 — 5 2 3 5 — — -■ — — 5 - n — 5 2 3 s i i — : 5 - 74 — 5 2 3 White Horse-lane - 5 25 5 4 1 — - — — — — 5 1 8± — 5 4 1 5 1 8J i 5 ! 4 1 1 — — — — — Wilson-street - 18 108 I 1 17 17 1 1 — — — — — 18 (b) - 5i 1 ! 17 17 1 8 - 3 1 7 8 - - 10 (b) _ 7 — 10 9 1 Totals - 145 | i 1 772 47 98 71 74 ! 48 38 29 9 19 19 107 - 11 18 89 52 55 — i j — ..... — ■ — j i — Incomplete Totals - — — — 1 — i — — j — — — — — — — — 39 - 8J 1 8 28 27 9 55 I 1 U 7 I 1 I 48 19 j 36 (a) The lent of these houses was raised in 1899 from 6s. to 10s. 6d., but lias since been reduced to 9$. 6d. (J) In 10 cases the rent was raised in 1899 from 10*. 6c/. to 15#. 6c?., but in each case lias since been reduced to 146'. 6c?. (a) The lent of these houses was raised in 1899 from 6s. to 10s. 6d., but lias since been reduced to 9$. 6d. (J) In 10 cases the rent was raised in 1899 from 10*. 6c/. to 15#. 6c?., but in each case lias since been reduced to 146'. 6c?.ftO^AL COMMISSION ON ALIEN iMMIGRi.? IOtf: i i - in i—t—■ 41 TABLE XL Appendix. Table showing the Results of Inquiries made in certain Streets in the Borough of BethiJal Green, as follows 1. The Number of Houses visited and the Rooms contained therein, together with the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants and the Number of Houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed Ownership since 1896 (Cols. 2-8); 2. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has not been Raised since 1890, with the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 9-13); 3. The Total Number of Houses where the 'Rent has been Raised since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 14-19); 4. The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised only once since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 20-25); and 5. The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised more than once since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 26-31). Houses Visited. Rents not Raised since 1890. Rents raised since 1890. Re|>jts Raised once since 1890. Rents Raised more than once since 1890 STREE T. Number. Number of Nationality of Landlords. Nationality Tenants. Houses which have changed Ownership since 1896. Number. Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants, llooms. British. Alien. British. Alien. British. Alien. British. Alien. per Room. British. Alien. British. Alien. per Room. British. Alien. British. Alien. per Room. British. Alien. British. Alien. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 1(5. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. s. d. s. d. s. d. Arundel-,street - 5 27 — 5 1 4 5 — — — — — 5 - 3* — 5 1 4 — — In ormation r lot availab' e. Austin-street - 1 4 1 - 1 — — — — — — — 1 - *4 1 — 1 - 1 - 44 1 — 1 — — _ — — — — Bacon-street .... 2 13 1 1 2 1 — — — — 2 - 2£ 1 1 — 2 2 2Ll 1 1 — 2 — — — — — — Barnsley-street 5 25 5 — o — — -- — — — — 5 " 24 5 — 5 — — — Tn ormation r lot availab t*. Brick-lane - 3 it — 3 — 2 2 — — ___ — — 3 1 9f — 3 1 2 2 1 11 — 2 1 1 1 1 8 — 1 — 1 Busby-street - 2 IS 2 — 2 -- — — -- ~~ — 2 - 44 2 2 — 1 - 2 1. — 1 — 1 1 - 1 — 1 — Chamboid-street 2 7 - 1 1 1 — 1 1 1 — 1 - 6 — 1 — 1 1 - 6 — 1 — 1 — — — — — — • Coventry-street 5 28 5 — 5 — — 3 3 — 3 — 2 - 2| 2 — 2« — — In formation lot availab e Gibraltar-walk 2 8 2 — 2 — • -- — — — — 2 - 14 2 — 2 — 2 - t ♦i 2 — 2 — — — — — — — Gossett-street - 1 4 1 — 1 - — 1 1 — 1 — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — Granby-street - 2 8 1 1 2 — 1 — — — — 2 - 3 1 1 2 — 2 - 3 1 1 2 — — - — — — — — Newling-street 2 8 2 — 2 — — — — — — 2 - 6 2 — 2 — 1 - 44 1 — 1 — 1 - 74 1 — 1 — Northampton-street 5 30 5 5 — 2 4 4 — 4 — 1 - 6 1 — 1 — — — In formation not availab le. Orange-street - 1 4 1 1 — — 1 1 — 1 — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — Pedley-street - - - 5 25 - 5 — 5 2 -- — — — 5 - 5 — 5 — 5 — 1 In formation not availab le. i i 1 1 1 Princes-court - 1 6 1 — 1 — — 1 ■ — 1 — — — — — — _ — 1 ~ — — — _ i — 1 — i — Hatch well-rents 2 6 - 2 2 -- 2 — — — — 2 - 9 2 2 ! — 1 - 6 ! ~ 1 1 1 1 - j | ! 1 | 1 j Selby-street - 5 20 5 — 5 — — — — — — — 5 - 6 5 5 i — - il Somerford-street 5 22 — 5 5 5 — — -- — — 5 - 9 — 5 5 — — i ) Ie formation not availal le. 1 ! Vallance-street 5 25 4 1 4 1 — — — — — — 5 - 2f 4 i 4 l — — | i i i Vii-guua-road - 1 6 1 — 1 — — 1 i — 1 — — — — — — __ — — i - — — — — — — i — Weaver-street - - - - 5 14 5 — 3 2 _ 5 5 — 3 2 — — — — — — — Ir [formation not availai >le. i 1 Totals - - - 67 318 42 24 49 17 20 17 16 1 15 2 50 - 54 26 24 35 15 — — — — — — ~ — ■ — — ] Incomplete Totals - — - i i ! — — — — — — — — — — 1 i | 13 I | - B4 7 6 9 1 1 i i 4 4 1 1 2 2 3 1 6144. 6144. H48 Appendix. TABLE X L t. Table showing the Results of Inquiries made in certain Streets in the PaRIsH of St. GeoRGE-IN-The-EasT, as follows i—The Number of Houses visited and the Rooms contained therein, together with Nationality of the Landlords and Tenants, and the Number of Houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed Ownership since 1896 (Cols. 2-8); 2. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has not been Raised since 1890, with the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 9-13) ; 3. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has been Raised since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 14-19) ; The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised only once since 1890, the . Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 20-25); and 5. The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised more than Once since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 26 31). -- - Houses Visited. Houses which have changed Ownership since 1896. Rents not Raised since 1890. Rents Raised since 1890. ! Rent Raised once since 1890. Rents Raised more than once since 1890. STREET. Number. Numbtr of Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Nationality of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality, of Landlords. Nationality of Tenants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality of Landlords. Nationality T enants. Number. Average Increase per Week Nationality Landlords. Nationality Tenants. 1. 2. Rooms. 3. British. 4. Alien. 5. British. 6. Alien. 7. 8. 9. British. 10. Alien. 11. British. 12. Alien. 13. 14. per Room. 15. British. 16. Alien. 17. British. 18. Alien. 19. i>0. per Room. 21. British. 22. Alien. 23. British. 24. Alien. 25. 26. per Room. 27 British. 28. Alien. 29. British. 30. Allen. 31. Anthony-street 10 56 10 ( 1 10 10 — — J — 10 1 s. d. - 104 10 i ! | 10 3 s. d. - 104 3 — | 3 7 s. d. 1 7i 7 — 7 Berner-street - 12 52 4 8 — 12 — 1 1 — — 1 11 2 4i 3 8 j 11 2 1 5i — 2 — 2 9 2 6£ j 3 6 — 9 Buross-street * 10 87 — 16 2 14 - — — — — — 16 - 11 — 16 1 2 1 i 14 2 " 5 — 2 — 2 14 - lif ' i 14 2 12 Cannon-street road - 6 41 1 5 — 6 1 — — — — — 6 1 3f 1 5 i i 6 2 - 48 1 1 — 2 4 1 9 ! 4 — 4 Challis-court - 15 68 — 15 — 15 15 — — — — — 15 1 42 — 15 — 15 — — — — i t — 15 1 15 — 15 Christian-street 14 74 4 10 1 1 13 7 — — — — — 14 2 4J 4 10 l 13 3 1 - 3 — 1 2 11 2 61 i ! 10 — 11 Fenton street - 9 27 — 9 1 8 — — ' — — — — 9 l H — 9 l 8 — — — — — — 9 1 8i i t i 9 1 8 Grove-street (a) 26 136 1(«) j 23(a) 1 25 11 , 1 (a) (a) — 1 25 1 Gh K«) 23 (a) l 24 7 1 2 1 6 1 6 18 1 7i 17 (a) — 18 Jane-street - 10 45 10 — 5 5 9 — — — — 10 - 54 10 — 5 5 9 - 5 9 — 5 4 1 1 - i — — 1 Little Turner-street ■ 9 46 1 8 — 9 — 1 — 1 — 1 8 - 114 1 7 — S — — — ■ — — — 8 - nj i 7 — 8 Matilda* place - 4 12 — 4 — 4 — — — — — — 4 - 44 — 4 — 4 4 - 44 — 4 — 4 — — — — — — Morgan-street • 9 48 3 6 — 9 1 - — — — — 9 1 3 6 — 9 1 - 24 1 — — 1 8 1 7 2 6 — 8 Old Gravel lane - - * 6 35 1 5 — 6 — — — — — — 6 i 104 1 5 — 6 5 1 54 1 4 — 5 1 3 5 — 1 - 1 Princes-square - - - 2 19 — 2 1 1 1 — — — — — 2 - 74 — 2 1 1 1 - 61 — 1 1 — I - 8i — 1 — 1 Richard-street • 9 47 9 — 7 2 9 — — — — — 9 - 7i 9 — 7 2 8 - n 8 — 6 2 1 - lOi 1 — 1 — St. George's-street ■ 12 92 — 12 — 12 — — — — — — 12 2 2 — - 12 — 12 3 1 34 — 3 — 3 9 2 5J — 9 — 9 Umberston-street 8 51 — 8 - 8 — — — -■ — - 8 1 3£ — 8 — 8 1 - 8i — 1 — 1 7 1 5 — 7 — 7 Waterloo-court 21 43 21 — -r- 21 — 1 1 — — 1 20 - 3i 20 — — 20 11 - 2i 11 — — 11 9 - 44 9 — — 9 Wellington-buildings {a) - 12 38 — 11 — 12 i 12 1 — — — — — 12 " 8i (a) 11 (a) — 12 1 1 - — 1 — 1 11 - 8i — 10 (a) — 11 Total - - - 210 1 1,017 i 65 (a) 142(a) 18 192 i 76 4 2(a) I Ma) — * 206 1 4 63 (a) 141 (a) 18 188 63 - 8| 38 i 25 14 49 143 1 7 25 116 (a) 4 139 j Table showing the Results of Inquiries made in certain Streets in the PaRIsH of St. GeoRGE-IN-The-EasT, as follows i—The Number of Houses visited and the Rooms contained therein, together with Nationality of the Landlords and Tenants, and the Number of Houses (so far as can be ascertained) which have changed Ownership since 1896 (Cols. 2-8); 2. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has not been Raised since 1890, with the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 9-13) ; 3. The Total Number of Houses where the Rent has been Raised since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 14-19) ; The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised only once since 1890, the . Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 20-25); and 5. The Number of such Houses (so far as can be ascertained) where the Rent has been Raised more than Once since 1890, the Average Increase per Room per Week, and the Nationality of Landlords and Tenants (Cols. 26 31). (a) The nationality of some of the landlords could not be ascertained. (a) The nationality of some of the landlords could not be ascertained. 6144ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 49 TABLE XLII. Appendix. 'Taiblle showing fclie Proportion of the Increase in Rents to the Rents previously paid in certain Streets in the Parishes of Christchurch, Spitalfields, Whitechapel, and Mile End New Town, where the average increase per \week per iroom has been Is. or more. Street. Number of Houses. Number of Rooms. Total Weekl; Prior to 1902. y Rents Paid. In 1902. Increase. Increase per Cent. Average Increase per Week per Room. Dunk Street Old Montague Street Spelman Street Tilley Street 1" 78 £. s. d. ! 13 10 9 £. s. d. 18 15 10 £. s. d. 5 5 1 39*81 s. d. 1 4i TABLE XLIII. Table .showing the Proportion of the Increase in Rents to the Rents previously paid in certain Streets in the Parish of Mile End Old Town where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. Street. Number of Houses. Number of Rooms. Total Weekly Rents Paid. Increase in Rents. Percentage of Increase. Average Increase per Week per Room. Prior to 1902. In 1902. Cadiz Street Cameron Place - Clark Street Frimley Street - Garden Street - Oxford street - Settle Street Smith Street Sydney Street - White Horse Lane - ) 42 194 £. s. d. IS 9 - £. s. d. 33 1 - 1 £. s. d. 14 12 - 79*14 i s. d. 1 61 TABLE XLIV. Table showing the Proportion of the Increase in Rents to the Rents previously paid in a certain Street in the Borough of Bethnal Green where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. Street. Number of Houses. Number of Rooms. Total Weekli Prior to 1902. j Rents Paid. In 1902. Increase in Rents. Percentage of Increase. Average Increase per Week per Room. Brick Lane 3 16 £. s. d. 2 6- £. s. d. 3 15 - £. s. d. 19- 63-05 s. d. 1 9f TABLE XLV. Table showing the Proportion of the Increase in Rents to the Rents previously paid in certain Streets in the Parish of St. George-in the-East where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. Strket. Number of Houses. Number of Rooms. Total Weekly Prior to 1902. j Rents Paid. In 1902. Increase in Rents. Percentage of Increase. Average Increase per Week per Koom. Berner Street - Cannon Street Road- Challis Court - Christian Street Fenton Street - Grove Street Morgan Street - Old Gravel Lane St. George's Street - Umberston Street ) 115 616 £. s. d. 73 8 7 £. s. d. 127 6 7 £. s. d. 53 18 - 73*40 s. d. 1 8{ 6144 6144 I50 APPENDIX : TABLE XLVI. Appendix. Showing the Nationality of Landlords and of Tenants of a certain number of Houses in the Borough of Stepney, with the number of cases where rents were raised by British and Alien Landlords respectively. Number of Houses Visited. Number of Cases where Rents were Raised. Percentage to Total'* Number of houses visited ! 608 484 79--61 Nationality of landlords: British 231 : 153 m-24 Alien....... 374 329 87-97 Total - - - 005 483 79*67 Nationality of tenants: British....... 206 155 75*24 Alien....... 402 329 1-85 Total - - - 608 484 79-61 iTABLE XLVII. Deposits (Key-money) paid to Landlords or Outgoing Tenants by Present Occupiers. Parts of Parishes. Christchurch, Spitalfields, Mile End New Town, St. George-in-the-East, and Whitechapel. Mile End Old Town Bethnal Green Total Number of Inquiries. 446 174 66 686 in which a Deposit was not paid. 163 122 54 339 Cases in which a Deposit was paid by Tenant. To Landlord. Houses. No. 62 12 2 76 Amount. £. 496 34 1 531 Shops. No. 10 Amount. £. 151 156 Total. No. 71 13 2 86 Amount. £. 647 39 1 687 To Outgoing Tenant. Houses. No. 186 35 7 228 Amount. £. l,8i 347 74 2,290 Shops. No. Amount. 26 4 3 33 42 42 780 Total. No. 212 39 10 261 Amount. Total Number of Cases where a Deposit was paid. Houses. Mo. £. 2,565 389 116 3,070 248 47 9 304 Amount. £. 2,365 381 75 2,821 Shops. No. Amount. 35 5 3 43 £. 847 47 42 936 Total. No. Amount. 283 52 12 347 £. 3,212 428 117 3,757 Parts of Parishes. TABLE XLVIII. Deposits (Key-money) paid to Landlords and Outgoing Tenants, distinguishing between Deposits paid by English and Alien Tenants. Christchurch, Spitalfields, Mile End New Town, St. George-in-the-East, and Whitechapel. Mile End Old Town Bethnal Green Total Number of Inquiries. 446 174 Cases in which a Deposit was not paid. 163 122 54 339 By English Tenants. Houses. No. 23 3 2 28 Amount. £. 191 15 1 207 No. Amount. £. Total. No. 24 4 2 30 Amount. £. 196 18 1 215 By Alien Tenants. Houses. No. Amount. 225 44 7 276 £. 2,174 74 2,614 No. 34 4 3 Amount. Total. No. 4!. £. 842 44 42 928 259 48 10 317 Anion nf. £. 3,016 410 116 3,542 Total Cases in which Deposits were paid. Houses. Shops. Total. No. 248 47 9 304 Amount. No. £. 2,365 381 75 2,821 35 5 3 43 Amount. £. 847 47 42 936 No. 283 52 12 347 Amount. £. 3,212 428 117 3,757 £ *xs I P-TABLE XLIX. Overcrowding. Table showing the Number of Persons Overcrowded in Tenements of 1 to 4 Rooms, in each Registration District constituting the Metropolitan Boroughs of Stepney and Bethnal Green, for the Years 1891 and 1901, and in each Registration Sub-district of Stepney and the Registration Sub-district of Bethnal Green South, in 1901, and the Percentage of Overcrowding to Total Population. (Note.—Persons living more than two in a room are reckoned as overcrowded.) Population Overcrowded. Percentage of Population Overcrowded to Total Population. Increase (+) or Decrease (-). Population Percentage of i Metropolitan Borough. Registration District. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. Population Over- crowded. Percentage of Population Overcrowded to Total Population. Registration Sub-district. - Over- crowded, 1901. Population Overcrowded to Total Population. Civil Parishes. I Stepney Whitechapel 31,992 35,792 43*0 ! 45-3 + 3,800 ! + 2*3 Spitalfields - Mile End New Town - Goodman's Fields | 15,400 12,974 7,418 55*1 45-2 33'6 Norton Folgate, Old Ar- tillery Ground and Spitalfields. Mile End New Town, Whitechapel (part). St. Botolph, Aldgate (including the Tower of London) and White- chapel (part). St. George-in-the-East - 18,243 22,412 39-8 45-7 + 4,169 ( + 5-9 | f St. George, North St. John Shadwell 19,682 2,730 3,806 48 0 33-7 35*4 | St. George-in-the*East, Shadwell and Wapping. Stepney 14,781 14,435 25*8 24-9 - 346 i 1 - 0*9 i Ratcliff Limehouse - 3,307 7,322 22-3 22*6 Ratcliff. Limehouse. Mile End Old Town 23,667 26,894 22-0 23-8 ! + 3,227 i + 1*8 | Mile End Old Town, Western, Mile End Old Town, Eastern- 16,309 10,585 27-4 19'8 j-Mile End Old Town. 88,683 99,533 311 33 3 +10,850 + 2-2 99,333 33H Bethnal Green - Bethnal Green 44,209 1 38,410 34-2 29-6 - 5,799 - 4-6 Bethnal Green South - 12,938 38-7 Bethnal Gfreen (part). (Note.—Persons living more than two in a room are reckoned as overcrowded.)ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 53 Appendix. TABLE L. Table showing, for each Census Enumeration District in the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, the condition of the Population with regard to Overcrowding and the Density of Population Per Acre. Registration Sub-district. Number of Enumera- tion District. Population. Population Over- crowded in Tenements of 1 to 4 Rooms. Percentage of Popula- tion Over- crowded to Total Population. Population Per Acre. Notes as to any Special Property included in the Area of each District. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. Spitalfields - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Institutions 1,202 926 2,048 1,497 1,301 877 1,305 779 1,423 1,851 969 1,426 874 1,866 1,779 1,347 742 1,663 1,106 <)>2 1,996 902 607 1,329 603 657 i 526 834 455 1,043 1,334 828 750 451 1,009 1,166 688 463 492 621 642 75-0 65-5 64-9 40 3 50*5 60*0 63-9 58*4 73*3 72-1 85*5 52-6 51-6 54-1 65*5 51-1 62*4 29-6 56-1 64*7 122-2 272-2 219-9 287-7 198-4 1,778-9 1,459-7 755-6 448-6 365-4 577-5 332-0 227 1 231-3 555-4 488-8 135-8 200-1 353-9 692-7 Bishopsgate Goods Station (large part). Bishopsgate Goods Station. Open space. Tenement buildings. Tenement buildings. Tenement buildings. Tenement buildings. Spitalfields Market. 27,969 15,400 55*1 319-6 Mile End New Town 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 M 10 11 12 13 14 15 Institutions 2,253 3,062 1,992 2,160 1,688 1,539 2,423 1,732 1,264 1,274 1,066 1,260 1,316 2,323 1,089 3,277 1,003 - 1,029 478 980 1,098 746 1,504 1,083 742 934 392 435 675 1,370 505 44-5 49*9 24-0 45*4 65-0 48*5 621 62*5 58*8 73-3 36-8 34-5 51-3 58*9 46 4 150-8 201-2 175-3 207*3 193-1 231-9 405-3 385 2 353-1 368-5 126-2 356-4 430 9 351-7 211*6 Railway works, &c. 28,718 12,974 45*2 251*9 ^Goodman's Fields - 1 2 3 4 5 6 i 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Institu lions Shipping - 1,058 1,736 1,324 1,562 904 1,082 1.139 2,546 850 • 2.140 963 961 733 1,297 881 762 1,913 230 349 978 893 1,113 142 618 434 498 135 785 116 319 238 510 198 92 33*0 56-3 67-5 71*2 15*7 57*1 38*1 19*6 15*9 36-7 12 0 332 32*5 39-3 22*5 12-1 131-2 211-7 478-8 1,263-8 123-2 269-4 86 9 202-0 75-4 104-2 605-3 154-0 173-9 140-4 331-6 18-4 Tenement buildings. Railway goods dep6t, &c. Railway goods depot. Peabody Buildings. Royal Mint. Docks. 22,081 7,418 33-6 | 108-7 125-6 With tidal water. Without tidal water.54, APPENDIX : Appendix. TABLE L.—continued. Table showing, for each Census Enumeration District in the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, the condition of the Population with regard to Overcrowding and the Density of Population per Acre—continued. Registration Sub-district. Number of Enumera- tion District. Population. Population over crowded in Tenements of 1 to 4 Rooms. Percentage of Popula- tion over- crowded to Total Population. Population per Acre. Notes as to any Special Property included in the Area of each District. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. St. George, North - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Institutions 2,477 1.584 1,930 1,495 1,865 1,909 1,896 1,475 1,286 1,767 1,389 1,847 1,513 1,364 1,220 1,781 1,713 1,802 1,547 1,506 1,568 1,418 1,552 1,320 1,588 164 ! 1,114 665 991 ; 614 j 718 ! 838 904 1 749 808 943 779 : 1,156 1,117 785 716 ; 883 | 591 920 782 530 637 753 752 I 403 , 534 | 45-0 420 51-3 41*1 38-5 43 9 47*7 51'4 62 8 53*4 56*1 62*6 73*8 57 *5 58*7 49 6 34*5 51*1 50 5 35*2 40*6 53-1 48-5 30*5 33-6 211-6 308*9 231-8 103-9 244 0 269-9 371-0 432-2 410-2 286-0 279-3 5510 299*5 384-0 523-2 425-6 415.4 398-2 316-9 275-4 268-6 310-1 360-2 136-3 272-7 Public gardens. Railway depot. Factory. ( 40,976 19,682 ! 1 48-0 27U-5 St. John 1 1 2 3 4 Institutions Shipping - 1,734 1,523 1,626 2,079 926 204 696 700 584 750 40*1 46*0 35-9 36'1 205-2 263'6 210-5 234-9 Recreation ground. 8,092 2,730 33*7 | 82-6 13-2 Large dock area and tidal* Water. Without tidal water. Shadwell 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Institutions Shipping - 1,660 592 884 591 890 1,250 1,104 1,484 1,468 516 147 172 545 199 305 196 320 660 359 563 524 135 32-8 33-6 34-5 | 33-2 | 36 0 i 52*8 j 32*5 37*9 35-7 26*2 244-8 58-4 36-5 101 0 250-6 361*3 1211 376-7 66-3 26-9 Wharves, &c. t Docks. Docks. Docks. 10,758 3,806 35*4 { 59-2 98-0 With docks and tidal water. Without tidal water. Ratcliff - 1 2 3 4 5 7 7 8 9 10 Institutions Shipping - 1,879 1,202 1,495 1,190 1,023 1,017 2,040 1,400 1,520 870 1,032 142 118 176 113 441 366 390 646 217 689 151 6*3 14-6 7*6 371 35-8 38*4 31*7 15*5 45-3 17*4 130-1 95-1 133-9 49-6 177-9 204-1 212-6 194-9 136-2 99-2 Public gardens Docks. 14,810 3,307 22-3 | 112-5 133-2 i With tidal water and docks. Without tidal water.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 55 TABLE L.—continued. Appendix. Table showing, for each Census Enumeration District in the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, the condition of the Population with regard to Overcrowding and the Density of Population per Acrs—continued. ® Registration Sub-district. - 1 Number of Enumera- tion District. 2 Population. 3 Population over- crowded in Tenements of 1 to 4 Rooms. 4 Percentage of Popula- tion over- crowded to Total Population. 5 Population per Acre. 6 Notes as to any Special Property included in the Area of each District. 7 Lixnehouse 1 1,143 484 42-3 347 0 2 1,538 749 48*8 349-4 3 1,945 827 42-5 266*7 4 909 289 31*8 155*8 ' * 5 1,470 491 33-4 267*4 6 1,077 200 18-6 281-1 7 1,275 129 10-1 175-3 8 696 283 40-7 248*7 9 993 397 40-0 296*9 10 872 191 21-9 139*2 11 1,605 310 19-3 50*1 Docks. 12 1,230 300 24-4 150*1 13 1,092 206 18-9 58*2 Wharves. 14 438 76 15*7 175*1 15 620 97 15-7 145*3 16 1,094 360 32-9 173*0 17 1,428 385 27-0 202*4 18 1,114 138 12-4 82*7 19 1,034 39 3-8 107*5 20 1,034 152 14-7 97*1 21 1,291 102 7-9 131*7 22 1,347 275 20*4 151*3 23 1,725 350 20*3 169*3 24 1,587 71 4 5 101*3 25 1,089 136 12*5 80*7 Wharves. 26 991 7 0-7 121 *3 27 1,261 278 22 0 117*3 28 Institutions 18 162 — — 3-6 Barges. Shipping- 246 - __ — 32,324 7,322 22*6 / 123-4 \ 13*2-2 With tidal water. Without tidal water. Mile End Old Town, 1 1,133 280 24-7 263-2 Western. 2 1,215 424 34'9 224-9 3 1,038 360 34*7 232*8 4 1,146 373 32-5 159*9 5 1,346 781 58*0 326*8 6 1,055 417 39'5 265*1 7 1,275 275 21*6 134*8 8 1,821 734 40*3 223*6 9 1,343 252 18*8 309*7 10 1,496 372 24*9 218*6 U 1,026 175 17*1 209*7 12 1,001 273 27*3 382*5 13 1,296 506 39*0 268*3 14 1,433 951 66*4 462*7 15 2,326 1,374 59*1 432*9 16 1,538 361 23*5 269*2 17 1,318 394 29*9 226*4 18 1,300 311 23*9 172*0 19 976 158 16*2 170*4 20 1,090 196 18*0 146*0 21 955 63 6*6 111*5 22 1,173 27.8 23*7 238*2 23 1,087 92 8*5 118*8 24 1,271 187 14*7 272*7 25 1,430 241 16*9 230-9 26 1,294 500 38*6 268*7 27 1,331 328 24*6 205*7 28 1,378 233 16*9 245*8 29 1,199 200 16*7 165-4 30 1,431 240 16*8 315-5 31 964 257 26*7 309-8 32 L366 260 19*0 139-6 33 1072 85 7*9 143-9 34 1,129 430 38*1 350-5 35 1,420 414 29*2 143*7 36 1,225 172 14*0 168-6 37 2,044 1,057 51*7 222-2 38 1,590 101 6*4 142 0 39 616 74 12*0 35*7 40 1,402 249 17*8 201-9 41 1,176 137 11*7 207*8 42 1,619 208 12*9 126*2 A3 1,047 ' 143 13*7 171-2 44 1,264 364 28*8 194-5 45 1,631 535 32*8 173*8 46 1,193 494 41*4 159*1 59,479 16,309 27*4 193*6 56 appendix : Appendix. TABLE L .—continued. Table showing, for each Census Enumeration District in the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, the condition of th« Population with regard to Overcrowding and the Density of Population per Acre—continued. Registration Sub-district. Number of Enumera- tion District. Population. Population over- crowded in Tenements of 1 to 4 Rooms. Percentage of Popula- tion over- crowded to Total Population. Population pei Acre. Notes as to any Special Property included in the Area of each District. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. Mile End Old Town, Eastern. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 Institutions 1,490 1,547 1,368 1,666 1,959 1,224 1,631 2,403 1,113 1,672 2.031 1,943 733 1,417 1,490 1,658 927 1,002 1,159 1,144 1,758 1,282 1,798 1.032 1,597 1,819 2,142 1,619 1,422 ' 1,346 1,734 1,480 1,267 2,402 2,073 192 296 72 60 403 164 504 1,331 316 459 637 520 363 652 207 496 32 6 6 42 710 224 557 168 288 385 284 320 272 222 168 62 32 135 12-9 19-1 5*3 3*6 20-6 13*4 30*9 55*4 28-4 27*5 31-4 26*8 49-5 46*0 13-9 29 9 0-4 0-6 0-5 3-7 40-4 17-5 31-0 16-3 18*0 21*2 13*3 19 8 19-1 16*5 9-7 4-2 2*5 96 182*1 158*6 143*9 85-1 64-1 125-0 203-8 380-9 177 0 87'8 193-6 205-3 331-4 199-5 79-4 201-9 957 71-4 132-0 88-4 301-6 222-6 247-5 150-5 96-3 182-2 178-5 207-0 201-0 135-8 120-1 127-9 123-1 234-1 Gas work . 54,348 10,585 19*5 144-0 Bethnal Green, South - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 2,291 1,867 1,443 1,521 1,772 1,579 1,606 1,869 2,343 1,943 1,351 2,531 3,242 1,987 2,125 1,494 1,643 1,865 760 440 288 370 448 401 610 843 1,359 1,174 568 1,262 1,077 597 1,015 173 595 958 33 2 23*5 20*0 24*3 25 3 25-4 38*0 45*1 58*0 60*4 420 49-9 48-0 30-0 47*8 11*6 36*2 51-4 223-2 643-8 211-1 162-0 211-0 226 4 181-7 328-0 202-4 182-4 138-2 140-9 311-2 197-2 215-6 309-8 193-8 198-5 Tenement buildings. Railway sidings. Railway sidings. Railway sidings. 34,472 12,938 37*6 210-4 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 57 TMSLE LI. Appendix. OVERCROWDING. Table showing the Total Number of Enumeration districts in each Registration Sub-district and the Number having Percentages of Overcrowding exceeding 50 per cent., exceeding 30 per cent., but not exceeding 50 per cent., and the Total Number exceeding 30 per cent.; also the lowest and highest percentages in each $nui£ieration District. Enumeration Districts in each Registration Sub-district. Percentage of Population Overcrowded in Registration Number with Percentage of Overcrowdiug. Lowest Percentage of Overcrowding in any Enumeration District. 7. Highest Percentage of Overcrowding in any Enumeration District. 8. m Sub-district. 1. tenements of 1 to 4 rooms, to Total Population. 2. Total Number. 3. Exceeding 30 per Cent. 4. Exceeding 50 per Cent. 1 5. Exceeding 30 per Cent, but not 50 per Cent. 6. 1. Spitalfields - 551 20 19 18 1 29*6 85*5 % St. George, N. 48*0 25 25 12 13 30-5 73*8 3. Mito End New Town - 45*2 15 14 7 7 24-0 73 3 4. Shadwell - 354 10 9 1 8 26*2 52-8 5. St. John .... 33*7 4 4 — 4 35 9 46*0' 6. Goodman's Fields 33*6 16 10 4 6 120 71-2 7. Mile End Old Town, Wes- teM£ 27-4 46 14 4 10 6:4 66*4 8. Limehouse - 22-6 27 8 — 8 0-7 48*8 9. RatclifF - 22*3 10 5 — 5 6*3 45-3 10. Mile End Old Town, Eas- tern. 19-5 34 7 1 6 0-4 55'4 Metropolitan Borough of Stepney. 33*3 207 115 47 68 0-4 85-5 Bethnal Green, South 37'6 18 ; 12 3 9 11*6 604 0144. K58- APPENDIX : Appendix. TABLE LII. Table showing the Number of Workmen's Trains Run and the Fares Charged by the Railway Companies Service in 1894. Railway. Route. Number of Trains Time of Arrival at London Termini. Number of Trains Time of Departure from London Termini. Fares Stations to which Fares are to London. First Train. Last Train. from London. First Train. Last Train. Charged, applicable. Great Eastern - Enfield and Liver- pool Street Branch. 8 a.m. 5.25 а.m. б.47 - a.m. [a) - a.m. d. 2 All stations Walthamstow and Liverpool Street Branch. 6 5.29 6.28 - {a) - - 2 All stations Stratford and Strat- ford Market and Liverpool Street Branch. 7 5.35 6.37 {a) - 2 i j All stations New Cross and Shoreditch and Liverpool Street Branch j(c) 6 5.5 6.55 6 {a) 5.5 6.54 | i ij 1 2 3 4 All stations to Rotherhithe. Deptford Road - Allot' erstations Stratford and Strat- ford Market and Fenchurch Street Branch. 4 5.30 6.27 (a) - i i 2 All stations Blaekwall and Fen- church Street. 6 5.30 6.50 1 i i .(a) - - i 2 All stations London, Tilbury and Southend. Stratford Market and Fenchurch Street - } • 5.11 7.18 \ct) - - ( ' j i 1 | 2 2i 3 Bromley or Plais- tow. Upton Park Barking or East Ham. Metropolitan District. East Ham and Whitechapel. - - - a 1 : i , - 1 ! , - .. — • • i ! 43 5.5 7.18 6 5.5 6.54 - i Table showing the Number of Workmen's Trains Run and the Fares Charged by the Railway Companies {a) Return tickets available by any train after 12 noon. (6) „ „ „ on the day of issue. (c) Run jointly with the London Brighton and South Coast Railway.8 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 59 TABLE LII. Appendix. serving tlie Borough of Stepney in 1894 as compared with the Number Run anil Fares Charged in 1902, Service in 1902. Number of Trains Time of Arrival at London Termini. Number of Trains Time of Departure from London Termini. Fares Stations to which Fares are Stations within or adjacent to the Arsa occupied by the Alien Population. to London. First Train. Last Train. from London. First Train. j Charged, Last i Train. | applicable. a.m. a.m. a.m. a.m. d i 20 5.22 7.47 " {a) - ; 2d. and 3d. (from 7.6 a.m.). All stations - 12 5,26 .7.23 - {a)- - - 2d. and 3d. (from 7,10 a.m.). All stations - 1 ^ Liverpool Street, Bishopsgate ' Street, Globe Road, and Coborn Road. 14 5.28 7.27 - (a) - - 2 All stations - J J(c) 8 5.5 7.35 8 j {a) 5.5 \ j 7.131 2 3 4 All stations to Ro- therhithe - * 1 Deptford Road All other stations - 1 Ij ! !, 1 Shoreditch, Whitechapel, Shad-' / well, and Wapping. 9 5.30 7.26 i {a) - - 2 All stations - 5 5.36 6.55 1 i 1 {a) - j 2 2 All stations - Bromley or Plais- tow i i sFenchurch Street, Leman Street, Shadwell, and Stepney. | 12 5.7 7.55 m ~ i ! J - i 2* 3 2 Upton Park - Barking or East Ham - All stations to Up- ton Park - / i 10 5.33 8.0 | {a) - 24 East Ham / \ Whitechapel, Stepney Green, Mile I End, and Bow Road. ■ ' 3 Bark nsj ! 90 5.5 8.0 8 5.5 1 7.13 - serving tlie Borough of Stepney in 1894 as compared with the Number Run anil Fares Charged in 1902,APPENDIX : Appendix. | TABLE LIII. Table showing the Number of Workmen's Trams Run between Aldgate and Poplar, and Stratford, and the Fares Charged in 1895 as compared with those Run on the same Routes and the Fares Charged in 1902. Service iisr 1895. Tmm-W'ay Route. ' i Number of Cars arriving at : Aldgate. First Car. Last Car. Inter- vals between each Car. Fare for Single Journey. Number of Cars leaving Aldgate. First : Car. Last Car. Inter- vals between each Car. Fare f6r Single JouttiieVo a.m. p.m. Mins. d. a.m. p. m. Mins. d. Poplar and Aldgate - 21 6.15 y.O 45 1 21 6.50 9.35 45 1 Stratford and Aldgate 18 6.15 7.51 48 ' 1 18 6.56 8.36 48 1 Service in 1902. Poplar and Aldgate - 28 4.0 7140 8 1 24 4.30 7.40 8 1 S$i?a)ti£ord audi Aklgate ( 25 ) i 3.0 , 7*25 10 1 21 ✓ $.41 7.25 10 1 • Service iisr 1895.TABLE LIV, Table showing, for the particular Districts for which the Statistics of Bent Raising have been obtained, the relation between the extent of Alien Immigration, Overcrowding, Rent Raising, and the practice of paying a Deposit for the Key. Metropolitan Boronglis. Particular .B egistration Districts to which the i* ent Figures Relate. Percentage of Aliens to Total Population. 1901. Increase since 1891. Percentage of Overcrowding to Tjtal Population. 1901. Increase (+), Decrease (—) since 1891. Particular Registration Sub-districts to which the Rent Figures principally relate. Per- centage of Over- crowding to Total Popula- tion, 1901. Particular Parishes to which the Rent Figures relate. Increase in Rents. Per- centage of Cases ic which Rents were Raised. Average Increase per Room per Week. Highest Increase per Cent. Deposits Paid for Key. Per- centage of Cases in which Deposits were Paid. Average Amount of Deposit. :5fcepaey Betlmal Green Wliitecliapel St, George-in-the- East. Mile End Old Town. Bethnal Green 43 92 31*55 9'84 3'8 17-10 14-33 4*08 2-40 45-3 45-7 23*8 29-6 + 2*3 + 5-9 + 1 *5 4-6 Spitalfields Mile End New Town. Gocdman's Fields St. George, North - Mile End Old Town, Western. Bethnal Green, S >utli. 55-1 45*2 48-0 27 4 38-65 C li r i s t c h u r c li, Spitalfields. Mile End New Town. Whitecliapel - Wliitecliapel - St. George-in the- East. Mile End Old Town. Bethnal Green 47-1 65*0 80 *< 98-6 74 75 d. 84 n - 61 1 4 11 39-48 34-93 54-71 94-57 163-64 63-05 46-2 64-8 59-6 70-9 78-8 6 9 , £. 8. d. 12 4 - 10 11 - 12 12 10 17 - 9 15 , *3 I' - F" Tables Compiled feom the Census Repokts of the United Kingdom. TABLE LV, Statement showing the Total Population of the United Kingdom and of each of the three Divisions thereof, as enumerated at the Census of 1891 and at that of L901. Census. England and Wales. Scotland. Ireland. I) nited Kingdom. Males. Females. Total. Males. Females. Total. Males. Females. Total. Male-4. Females. Total. 1891..... 1901..... Increase - - - Decrease - - - 14,052,901 15,728,613 14,949,624 16,799,230 29,002,525 32,527,843 1,942,717 2,173,755 2,082,930 2,298,348 4,025,647 4,472,103 2,318,953 2,200,040 2,385,797 2,258,735 4,704,750 4,458,775 18.314.571 20,1. 2,408 19,418,351 21,356,313 37,732,922 41,458,721 1,675,712 1,849,606 3,525,318 231,038 915,418 446,456 — — — 1,787,837 1,937,962 3,725,799 — — — — — — 118,913 : 127,062 245,975 — — — TABLE LVI. Statement showing the Alien Population of the United Kingdom and of each of the three Divisions thereof, as enumerated at the Census of 1881 and at those of 1891 and 1901. Census. England and Wales. Scotland. Ireland. * United Kingdom. Males. Females. Total. Maes. Females. Total. Males. Females. Total. Males. Females. Total. 1881 .. 1891 * Increase in 1891 over) 1881 - - -/ 1901 - Increase in 1901 over) 1891 - - -/ Total Increase in 20 \ years - - -J 74,097 115,886 43,934 82,227 118,031 198,113 4,681 5,999 1,718 2,511 6,399 8,510 6,062 6,967 5,148 5,933 11,210 12,900 84,840 128,852 =■ 50,800 90,671 135,640 219 523 41J 89 38,293 80,082 IMS 793 2,111 r'0.rj 785 1,690 44,012 39,871 83,883 151,329 96,429 247,758 14,448 8,179 22,627 9,009 7,531 16,540 174,786 112.139 286,925 35,443 14,202 49,645 8,449 5,668 14,117 2,042 1,598 3,640 45,934 89,946 21,468 67,402 77,232 52,495 •129,727 9,767 6,461 16,228 2,947 2,383 5,330 61,339 151,285 Statement showing the Total Population of the United Kingdom and of each of the three Divisions thereof, as enumerated at the Census of 1891 and at that of L901.IlOYAL COMMISSION Otf ALtEN IMMIGRATION. 3- TABLE LVII. Appendix. Statement showing the Sex &nd Country of Birth of the Aliens enumerated at the Census of 1891 and at that of 1901, in the United Kingdom, and in each of the three Divisions thereof England and Wales. Scotland. Ireland. United Kingdom. Country of Birth. 1891. 1901. Increase ( + ) or decrease (-) in decennial period. 1891. 1901. Increase (+) or decrease (-) in decennial period. 1891. 1901. Increase (+) or decrease \ -) in decennial period. 1891. 1901. Increase (+) or decrease (- ) in decennial period. M. ; f. Total. M. F. Total. M. F. Total. M. F. Total. ! M. f. Total. M. F. Total. m. F. Total. M. F. Total. M. | F. Total. m. F. ! Total. ! M. F. Total. ! M. j f; Total. Russia and Poland 25,549 19,525 45,074 45,575 37,269 82,844 + 20,026 + 17,744 + 37,770 1,017 458 1,475 6,287 ! 4,086 10,373 + 5^70 + 3,628 + 8,898 712 435 1,147 f j | 1,175 853 2,028 | + 463 ; +418 + 881 27,278 20,418 47,696 i 53,037 42,208 95,245 + 25,759 , -i 21,790 + 47,549 Norway, Sweden and Den- mark. 11,662 2,342 14,004 12,157 2,928 15,085 + 495 + 586 +1,081 1 1,723 254 1,977 1,673 485 2,158 -50 + 231 + 181 529 32 561 465 54 519 -64 + 22 -42 13,914 1 2,628 16,542 14,295 3,467 17,762 1 +381 + 839 +1,2^0 Holland .... 3,584 2,766 6,350 4,276 2,575 6,851 + 692 -191 + 501 293 28 321 135 50 185 -158 + 22 - 136 32 12 44 46 33 79 +14 + 21 + 35 3,909 2,806 6,715 4,457 2,658 7,115 + 548 - 148 + 400 Belgium .... 2,003 1,914 3,917 2,424 1,890 4,314 + 421 -24 + 397 38 31 69 90 39 129 + 52 + 8 + 60 82 81 163 70 75 145 - 12 -6 -18 2,123 2,026 4,149 2,584 2,004 j 4,588 + 461 - 22 + 43!) France ..... 9,803 10,994 20,797 9,942 10,525 20,467 + 139 - 469 -330 1 214 232 446 259 331 590 + 45 + 99 + 144 762 470 1,232 921 428 1,349 + 159 -42 + 117 10,779 11,696 22,475 11,122 11/284 1 1 22,406 + 343 -412 -69 Germany .... 30,386 20,213 50,599 30,356 18,777 49,133 - 30 -1,436 -1,466 1,459 593 2,052 2,014 1,218 3,232 + 555 + 625 + 1,180 563 377 940 583 454 1,037 + 20 + 77 + 97 32,408 21,183 53,591 32,953 20,449 53,402 + 545 -734 - 183 Austria..... 3}262 1,673 4,935 6,496 3,189 9,685 + 3,234 + 1,516 i + 4,750 j 122 38 160 251 114 365 + 129 j + 76 + 205 35 15 50 51 29 80 + 16 + 14 + 30 3,419 1,726 5,145 6,798 3,332 10,130 + 3; 379 + 1,606 + 4,985 Hungary .... 501 237 738 790 319 1,109 + 289 + 82 + 371 21 12 33 19 20 39 t - 2 + 8 + 6 — — — — — — — — — 522 249 771 809 339 1,148 + 287 + 90 + 377 Switzerland - 3,356 3,261 6,617 4,863 3,494 8,357 + 1,507 + 233 + 1,740 85 124 209 199 177 376 + 114 | + 53 + 167 69 209 278 j 87 206 293 + 18 -3 + 15 3,510 3,594 7,104 5,149 3,877 9,026 +1,639 + 283 + 1,922 Spain..... 1511 733 2,244 2,261 520 2,781 + 750 . -213 + 537 33 11 44 131 25 156 + 98 + 14 + 112 49 40 i 89 j 72 32 104 ; + 23 -8 + 15 1,593 784 2,377 2,464 577 3,041 + 871 -207 I + 664 Portugal - - 382 276 658 315 98 413 -67 -178 -245 12 5 17 2 2 4 -10 : -3 -13 10 10 20 ! 9 11 20 -1 + 1 — 404 291 695 326 111 : 437 -78 - 180 -258 Italy..... 7,333 2,576 9,909 15,356 4,976 20,332 + 8,023 + 2,400 +10,423 541 208 749 2,795 1,256 4,051 + 2,254 + 1,048 + 3,302 183 80 263 219 82 301 + 36 + 2 + 38 8,057 2,864 10,921 j 18,370 6,314 24,684 +10,313 + 3,450 +13,763 Greece ■ 678 319 997 i 961 84 1,045 + 283 -235 + 48 8 1 9 36 10 46 + 28 ; + 9 + 37 77 38 115 22 38 60 ! - 55 — - 55 763 ;i58 1,121 1,019 132 1 1,151 + 256 -226 + 30 Servia, Roumania and Bul- garia. 437 297 734 i 1,850 1,446 3,296 +1,413 +1,149 + 2,562 12 1 13 28 5 33 + 16 i t + 4 + 20 1 — 1 1 1 5 1 6 + 4 + 1 + 5 450 298 748 1,883 1,452 4335 + 1,433 + 1,154 + 2,587 Turkey..... 808 433 I 1,241 1,200 389 •1,589 + 392 -44 + 348 13 4 17 29 16 45 + 16 + 12 + 28 10 9 19 6 3 9 -4 j -0 - 10 831 446 1,277 1,235 408 1,643 1 + 404 -38 + 366 Asia..... 1,082 722 1,804 1 1,058 187 1,245 -24 - 535 -559 80 12 92 74 4 78 -6 -8 -14 76 73 149 84 95 179 + 8 i -i 22 + 30 1,238 807 2,045 1,216 286 1 1 1,502 -22 - 521 -543 Africa..... 599 463 1,062 i j 333 129 462 - 266 - 334 | -600 12 2 14 16 2 ! 18 , + 4 — + 4 55 67 122 100 111 211 I + 45 + 44 + 89 666 532 1,198 ; 449 242 ; i 691 - 217 - 290 j - 507 America - 12,837 13,389 26,226 j 10,839 7,472 18,311 - 1,998 -5,917 i -7,915 314 491 805 ' 410 339 749 4 96 - 152 -56 3,721 3,984 7,705 j 5,094 5,026 10,120 + 1,373 + 1,042 + 2,415 16,872 17,864 34,736 16,343 12,837 i 29,180 - 529 - 5,027 | - 5,556 Not stated - 113 94 1 207 i 277 162 439 + 164 + 68 + 232 2 6 i 8i — ~ | — -2 ( -6 — 8 1 1 2 ' 2 1 — — -1! i -1 - 2 116 101 217 277 162 439 + 161 + 61 | + 222 115,886 82,227 198,113 151,329 96,429 ; ! 247,758 + 35,443 + 14,202 + 49,645 5,999 2,511 8,510 ! 14,448 i 8,179 | 22,627 1 + 8,449 j +5,668 + 14,117 6,967 5,933 | 12,900 1 9,009 7,531 16,540 i + 2,042 j i v598 + 3,640 128,852 90,671 I 219,523 174,786 112,139 i 286,925 i + 45,934 J + 21,468 I i + 67,402 Statement showing the Sex &nd Country of Birth of the Aliens enumerated at the Census of 1891 and at that of 1901, in the United Kingdom, and in each of the three Divisions thereof 6144. M 6144. MROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 65 Appendix. TABLE LVIIL Statement showing the Population of the Administrative County of London (including City of London) and of the City of London, and of the Metropolitan Boroughs at each of the decennial periods from 1881 to 1901; also the increase or decrease of Population in each District at the date of each succeeding Qensus, <6144.66 APPENDIX : Appendix TABLE LVIII. Statement showing the Total Population of the Administrative County of London (including City- periods froml881 to 1901; also the increase or decrease of Population Census of 1881. Census of 1891. Increase or decrease in 1891 as compared with 1881. M. F. Total. M. F. Total. M. F. Total. Administrative County of L011-) don (including City of London J 1,797,486 2,018,997i 3,816,483 1,990,748 f . 2,220,995 4,211,743 193,262 201,998 395,260 Paddington ^ i Kensington - \ 150,123 208,374 358,497 159,883 220,524 380,407 9,760 12,150 21,910 Chelsea J City of Westminster - 107,531 122,348 229,879 93,209 105,757 198,966 *14,322 *16,591 *30,913 Stoke Newington - - ^ Hackney J $3,808 102,654 186,462 105,311 124,231 229,542 21,503 21,577 43,080 Holborn - Finsbury .... J) 123,707 124,949 248,656 108,675 111,347 220,022 *15,032 *13,602 *28,634 €ity of London ^ Stepney ..... 140j661 142,015 3 282,676 143,774 141,451 285,225 3,113 *564 2,549 Battersea • » - » ^ Wandsworth - J 98,159 112,275 210,434 142,955 164,545 307,500 44,796 52,270 97,066 •Greenwich - * - - - \ Deptford - Woolwich - 135,711 149,694 285,405 176,275 190,797 367,072 40,564 41,103 81,667 Lewisham - Fulham - - \ Hammersmith J 53,174 61,665 114,839 87,056 101,822 188,878 33,882 40,157 74,039n St. Marylebone - 67,895 87,015 1M,910 62,372 80,032 142,404 *5,523 *6,983 *12,506 Hampstead..... 17,569 27,883 45,452 26,777 41,639 68,416 9,208 13,756 22,964 St. Pancras..... 112,516 123,742 236,258 113,360 121,019 234,379 844 *2,723 - *1,879 Islington..... 132,580 150,285 282,865 150,760 168,383 319,143 18,180 18,098 36,278 Shoreditch - - 61,685 64,906 126,591 60,790 63,219 124,009 *895 *1,687 *2,582 Bethnal Green .... 62,546 64,415 126,961 63,308 65,824 129,132 762 1,409 2,171 Poplar L 79,090 77,420 156,510 84,302 82,446 166,748 5,212 5,026 10,238 Bermondsey - 67,566 67,066 134,632 68,911 67,749 136,660 1,345 683 2,028 Lambeth .... 119,176 134,523 253,699 129,989 145,214 275,203 10,813 10,691 21,504 Camberwell - 87,491 9.9,102 186,593 111,389 12^955 235,344 23,898 24,853 48,751 Southwark..... 96,498 98,666 195,164 101,652' 101,041 202,693 5,154 2,375 7,529 Statement showing the Total Population of the Administrative County of London (including City- periods froml881 to 1901; also the increase or decrease of Population * Decrease. * Decrease. Note.—It will be observed that some of the figures ot'1881 and 1891 do not correspond absolutely with the figures as ferencc in many cases of certain proportions of the population from one District to another. To draw therefore an accurate Monged to the District in which they have been since located.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 67 TABLE LVIIL a Appendix. of London) and of the City of London, and of the Metropolitan Boroughs at each of the decennial in each District at the date of each succeeding Census. 1 .......... Census of 1901. Increase or decrease in 1901, as compared wiih 1891. ;1 , ■ j Total increase or decrease in 20 years. M. F. Total. M. F. Total. M.. F. Total. 2,142,085 2,394,456 4,536,541 Iol,o3 / 173,461 324,798 344,599 » 375,459 720,058 163,538 230,908 394,446 3,655 10,384 14,039 13,415 22,534 35,949 84,963 98,048 183,011 *8,246 *7,709 *15,955 *22 568 *24,300 *46,868 123,823 146,696 270,519 18,512 22,465 40,977 40,015 44,042 84,057 93,224 94,567 187,791 "15,451 n6,780 *32,231 *30,483 *30,382 *60,865 150,711 147,889 298,600 6,937 6,438 13,375 10,050 5,874 15,924 185,515 215,426 400,941 42,560 50,881 93,441 87,356' 103,151 190,507 219,268 231,573 450,841 42,993 40,776 83,769 83,557 81,879 165,436 117,366 132,162 249,528 30,310 30,340 60,650 64,192 70,497 " 134,689' 57,891 31,688 114,305 159,290 58,149 63,380 84,823 65,134 142,760 122,997 103,260 75,410 50,254 121,012 175,701 60,488 66,300 83,999 65,626 159,135 136,342 102,920 133,301 81,942 235,317 334,991 118,637 129,68u 168,822 130,760 301,895 259,339 206,180 ' *4,481 4,911 945 8,530 *2,641 72 521 *3,777 12,771 11,608 1,608 *4,622 8,615 *7 7,318 *2,731 476 1,553 *2,123 13,921 12,387 1,879 *9,103 13,526 938 15,848 *5,372 ' 548 2,074 *5,900 26,692 23,995 3,487 *10,004 14,119 1,789 26,710 *3,536 834 5,733 *2,432 23,584 35,506 6,762 *11,605 22,371 *2,730 25,416 *4418 1,885 6,579 *1,440 24,612 37,240 4,254 *21,609* 36,490 *941 52,12ft *7,954 2,719> 12,312 *3,872 48,19(> 72,746 11,016 * Decrease. * Decrease. given in the Census of each of these years. The reason is that the adjustments of "boundaries in 1900-1 caused the trans- comparison it has been necessary to include in the years 1881 and 1891 the populations of the areas so adjusted, as if they 6144. • N 268 APPENDIX : Appendix, TABLE LIX. Statement showing the Alien Population of the Administrative County of London (including City of London), also the increase or decrease of Alien Population in 1 Census of 188 L. Census of 1891. Increase in 1891 over 1881. i M. F. Total. M. F. Total. M. F. Total. Administrative County of Lon-\ don (including City of London) J 37,125 23,127 60,252 55,084 ! 39,969 95,053 17,959 16,842 34,801 Paddington \ Kensington - ) 2,518 2,897 5,415 3,322 4,516 7,838 804 1,619 2,423 ; Chelsea - - City of Westminster - 4,075 2,559 6,634 5,131 3,247 8,378 1,056 688 1,744 Stoke Newington - - 1,168 636 1,804 1,725 1,198 2,923 557 562 1,119 Hackney J Holborn \ Finsbury - ) 4,429 1,661 6,090 5,016 2,304 7,320 587 643 1,230 ; City of London , Stepney » - - - - 9,354 6,644 15,998 18,033 14,251 32,284 8,679 7,607 16,286 f Battersea -- 716 584 1,300 1,329 1,199 2,528 613 615 1,228 ; Wandsworth J Greenwich ' Deptford - 1,025 704 1,729 1,523 1,321 2,844 498 617 1,115 Woolwich - Lewisham - Fulham \ 632 486 1,118 1,368 1,135 2,503 736 649 1,385 Hammersmith J St. Marylebone - 2,096 1,574 3,670 2,445 2,103 4,548 349 529 878 Hampstead - 329 435 764 733 858 1,591 404 423 827 St. Pancras..... 2,573 1,316 3,889 3,730 1,961 5,691 1,157 645 1,802 Islington..... 2,061 1,063 3,124 2,643 1,546 4,189 582 483 1,065 Shoreditch..... 799 322 1,121 1,104 551 1,655 305 229 534 Bethnal Green - 620 305 925 1,057 739 1,796 437 434 871 Poplar...... 1,279 299 1,578 1,423 495 1,918 144 196 340 Bermondsey - 786 183 i 974 884 226 1,110 98 38 136 Lambeth - 1,170 668 1,838 1,741 1,041 2,782 571 373 944 Camberwell - 720 459 1,179 1,019 797 1,816 299 338 637 Southwark..... 775 327 1.102 : 858 481 1,339 83 154 237 * Decrease. * Decrease. Note.—It will be observed that some of the figures of 1881 and 1891 do not correspond absolutely with the figures as ference in many eases of certain proportion of the population from one District to another. To draw therefore an accurate belonged to the District in which they have been since located.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 69 TABLE LIX. Appendixjj and of the City of London and of the Metropolitan Boroughs at each of the decennial periods from 1881 to 1901 ; each District at the date of each succeeding Census. _ Census of 1901. Increase or decrease in 1901, as compared with 1891. Total increase in 20 years. - M. F. Total. M. F. Total. M. i i F. Total. 79,804 55,573 135,377 24,720 15,604 40,324 42,679 32,443 75,125 4,190 . • 4,564 8,754 868 48 916 1,672 1,667 3,339 7,509 4,322 11,831 2,378 1,075 3,453 3,434 1,763 5,197 2,537 1,737 4,274 812 539 1,351 1,369 1,101 2,470 6,587 2,829 9,416 1,571 525 2,096 2,158 1,168 3,326 29,363 24,947 54,310 11,330 10,696 22,026 20,009 18,303 38,312 1,756 1,261 3,017 427 62 489 1,040 677 1,717 1,829 1,226 3,055 306 *95 211 804 522 1,326 2,076 1,270 3,346 708 135 843 1,444 784 2,228 3,237 1,094 5,559 2,887 1,670 2,586 1,535 914 2,412 947 1,116 2,323 1,175 2,597 1,413 955 2,048 569 219 1,094 547 477 5,560 2,269 8,156 4,300 2,625 4,634 2,104 1,133 3,506 1,494 1,593 792 361 1,829 244 566 1,529 112 30 671 *72 258 220 317 636 *133 404 1,309 74 *7 53 *250 *4 1,012 678 2,465 | 111 " 970 1 2,838 186 23 724 *322 254 1,141 765 1 2,986 ! 820 i 871 1,966 256 128 1,242 227 341 749 740 . 1,281 350 633 1,743 270 31 426 88 150 ! 1,890 1,505 4,267 1,176 1,504 3,709 526 159 1,668 315 491 * Decrease. * Decrease. given in the Census of each of these years. The reason is that the adjustments of boundaries in 1900-1 caused the trans- comparison it has been necessary to include in the years 1881 and 1891 the populations of the areas so adjusted, as if they70 APPENDIX : Appendix. TABLE LX. Statement showing the Country of Birth of the Alien Population of the Administrative County of London the Census Total Number CONTINENT — — of Aliens Enumerated. Russia. Poland (Russia). Sweden, Norway, ; Denmark. | j Holland. Belgium. France- Ger- many. Administrative County -©f Lon- \ don (including City of London) / 135,377 38,117 15,420 3,688 . 4,249 2,102 11,264 27,427 City of London - 1,243 238 ! 124 26 130 7 52 352 Battersea - 952 43 14 49 34 26 146 368 Bermondsey - 1,133 61 35 j 354 24 25 59 368 Bethnal Green - 4,634 2,874 564 13 120 10 40 481 Camberwelli..... 1,494 33 22 50 61 47 154 656 Chelsea...... 1,263 26 9 52 16 59 364 298 Deptford..... 742 35 7 77 26 16 69 224 Finsbury..... 2,467 90 73 27 46 31 166 634 Fulham...... 1,778 43 40 54 43 51 262 623 Greenwich..... 790 28 2 95 36 22 72 322 Hackney..... 3,201 709 314 50 172 40 194 1,052 Hammersmith - 1,568 77 21 45 131 52 267 450 Hampstead..... 2,269 62 14 102 92 47 265 984 Holborn..... 5,706 240 112 99 109 113 660 1,098 Islington..... 4,300 210 109 147 195 97 467 1,842 Kensington..... 4,669 274 85 167 84 138 902 1,286 Lambeth..... 3,506 132 29 117 138 86 590 1,270 Lewisham..... 1,082 23 8 57 21 • 17 161 516 Paddington - 2,822 128 49 100 , 73 66 467 877 Poplar...... 2,104 175 102 487 95 37 : 57 627 St. Marylebone - 5,560 266 164 207 100 165 1,144 1,764 St. Pancras..... 8,156 370 145 359 248 263 lj480 2,850 Shoreditch..... 2,625 644 327 38 55 20 64 1,004 Southwark..... 1,593 95 31 25' 56 22 134 591 Stepney...... 54,310 30,176 11,856 478 1,870 198 257 3,576 Stoke Newington - 1,073 65 31 37 74 18 84 482 j Wandsworth..... 2,065 52 15 96 71 102 401 679 ] Westminster, City of - - 11,831 903 1,015 265 124 323 2j249 2,031 ) Woolwich..... 441 45 103 15 5 4 37 122 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 71 TABLE LX. Appendix (including City of London) and of the City of London and the Metropolitan Boroughs, as enumerated at of 1901. 1 OF EUROPE. Asia. Africa. America. Country not_ stated. Austria. Hungary. Switzerland. Spain. Portugal. Italy. Greece. Servia, Roumania, Bulgaria. Turkey. 6,189 750 4,419 666 128 10,889 211 2,116 660 419 168 6,244 251 48 6 53 50 1 7Q 1 5 9 3 1 65 2 21 1 40 6 - 118 - — 6 2 3 74 27 3 11 7 1 90 4 29 3 - 30 2 214 13 12 2 - 124 1 106 7 1 - 51 1 38 2 73 12 3 193 5 4 10 5 1 125 - 54 11 112 7 0 114 - 1 5 7 2 120 X 11 — 19 12 - 190 - — 5 1 ,2 48 - 103 24 79 4 2 1,065 1 34 3 - 3 82 - ' 57 16 91 11 - 290 2 4 31 8 7 145 - 32 10 36 36 1 35 4 2 5 8 1 43 - 202 18 78 18 4 147 4 40 11 11 2 134 1 51 14 99 19 - 135 11 4 33 5 7 141 6 66 20 148 10 1 81 6 8 30 47 8 270 8 179 28 247 50 8 2,029 19 23 16 28 4 636 8 184 53 179 19 2 446 7 9 42 9 7 274 2 169 29 336 56 18 318 29 8 38 38 21 663 10 138 23 ; 269 33 12 269 .. 7 5 18 27 13 326 4 27 5 62 23 2 52 . 5 — 4 7 1 90 1 110 33 229 18 12 230 . 23 12 35 24 19 311 6 48 2 14 6 11 267 , 9 - 6 2 42 1 115 1 303 50 370 40 11 46$ .. 9 19 52 33 4 3i3 14 443 95 573 50 1 828 , 8 40 3? 28 6 319 11 102 23 32 2 - 229 . - .. 29 5 - - 48 3 47 4 52 8 - 35y . 13 . 6 13 5 6 127 2 3,009 147 28 8 13 250 • 10 .. 1,680 181 23 16 392 136 56 14 75 23 2 33 . 4 . 5 2 1 1 62 4 48 13 137 31 8 131 , 6 . 11 20 20 6 218 - 392 91 ! 958 102 10 2,282 • 21 , 26 35 36 25 918 25 10 2 j 7 3 - 49 2 .. — . * 1 34 272 APPENDIX : Append x TABLE LXI. Statement showing the Principal Occupations in which the Aliens enumerated at the Census Occupations. Tailors.......... Seamen.......... Domestic Indoor Servants - ... Bread, Biscuit, Cake, &c., Makers..... Bakers and Confectioners (Dealers) - - Waiters.......... Art, Music and Drama....... Commercial or Business Clerks - Hawkers, and Costermongers...... Teachers.......... Cabinet Makers........ Boot and Shoe Makers ------- Wig makers, Hairdressers....... Dressmakers and Milliners...... Cooks (not domestic)........ Tobacco Manufacturers and Tobacconists - Commercial Travellers Engineering"and Machine Making - Hat, Cap, &c., Makers, (not straw)..... Miners.......... Butchers, Meat Salesmen....... Dealers in Textile Fabrics....... Brokers, Agents, Factors ------- •General Labourers........ •Carpenters and Joiners...... Watchmakers, Clockmakers - Furriers, Skinners........ Painters, Decorators, Glaziers ------ General Shopkeepers, Dealers..... -Coffee, Eating-house Keepers...... Grocers, Tea, Coffee, Chocolate Dealers - Monks, Nuns, Sisters of Charity..... Merchants (Commodity undefined)..... Fishing -...... Wood Carvers, Carvers and Gilders - Bankers and Bank Officials.....— Laundry and Washing Service ------ Gardeners (not domestic) Nurserymen, Seedsmen, Florists Goldsmiths, Silversmiths. Jewellers..... England and Wales. Males. 19,856 16,992 4,888 2,944 1,526 5,526 4,421 5,195 4,435 1,350 4,600 4,492 3.110 102 2,253 1,463 1,747 1,753 1,346 630 1,673 1,234 1,680 1,167 1.111 1,135 936 1,127 660 832 729 63 868 169 711 773 162 735 652 Females. 4,930 99 12,555 31 245 124 1,179 248 290 3,029 15 179 60 2,728 224 490 37 3 667 2 56 198 19 3 7 244 4 156 76 182 702 2 1 10 2 570 16 15 Total. 24,786 17,091 17,443 2,975 1,771 5,650 5,600 5,443 4,725 4,379 4,615 4,671 3,170 2,830 2,477 1,953 1,784 1,756 2,013 632 1,729 1,432 1,699 1,170 1,111 1,142 1,180 1,131 816 908 911 765 870 170 721 775 732 751 (667ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. TABLE LXl. Appendix. of 1901 in the United Kingdom, and in each of the three Divisions thereof, were engaged. Scotland. Ireland. United Kingdom. Males. Females. Total. *Males. Females. Total. Males. Females. Total. • 568 207 775 125 12 137 20,549 5,149 25,698 1,890 20 1,910 694 — 694 19,576 119 19,695 51 501 552 151 767 918 5,090 13,823 18,913 7.8 1,367 2 87 80 1,454 i 50 4 54 5,965 369 6,334 266 18 284 117 22 139 5,909 164 6,073 243 65 308 108 24 132 4,772 1,268 6,040 188 26 214 102 12 | 114 5,485 286 5,771 389 4 393 193 61 254 5,017 355 5,372 98 132 230 119 270 i 389 1,567 3,431 4,998 168 — 168 32 32 ' 4,800 15 4,815 78 4 82 17 — 17 4,587 183 4,770 140 2 142 42 1 43 3,292 63 a,3o5 2 88 90 — 148 148 104 2,964 3,068 58 ' 1 59 28 i 29 2,339 226 2,565 308 161 469 19 5 24 1,790 656 2,446 244 3 247 149 — 149 2,140 40 2,180- 244 244 33 — 33 2,030 3 2,033 6 2 ' 8 1 — 1 1,353 669 2,022 1,262 — 1,262 — — — 1,892 2 1,894 . 65 3 68 54 1 i 55 1,792 60 1,852 72 15 87 281 25 j 306 1,587 238 1,825 60 1 61 40 2 42 1,780 22 1,802 204 — 204 174 8 182 1 .OiO 11 1,556 179 — 179 89 — 89 1,379 — 1,379 57 — . 57 96 — 96 1,288 7 1,295 20 i 2 22 1 — 1 957 246 1,203 27. — 27 41 — ! 41 1,195 4 1,199 4128 24 152 123 70 193 9U 250 1,161 148 9 157 — — — 980 85 1,065 38 18 56 37 11 48 804 211 1,015 1 18 19 12 139 151 76 859 935 14 — 14 28 — 28 910 2 912 70 — 70 611 — 611 850 1 851 50 1 51 22 — 22 1 783 11 794 7 — 7 9 — 9 789 2 791 — 16 16 2 18 20 164 604 768. 10 1 11 2 — 2 747 17 i 764 ! 34 1 35 38 — 38 724 16 740 of 1901 in the United Kingdom, and in each of the three Divisions thereof, were engaged. 6144. 6144. O74 APPENDIX: Appendix. Table LXI.—continued. Statement showing the Principal Occupations in which the Aliens enumerated at the Census England and Wales. Occupations. Males. Females. Total. Messengers, Porters, Watchmen (not railway or Government) 645 8 653 Slipper Makers........... 634 30 673 Waterproof Goods Makers......... 578 74 652 Inn, Hotel-keepers, Publicans, Beersellers, Cider Dealers 591 47 638 Shirtmakers, Seamstresses........ 78 460 538 Electrical Apparatus Makers........ 626 6 632 Dock Labourers, Wharf Labourers....... 604 — 604 Sick Nurses, Invalid Attendants....... 33 517 550 Lodging, Boarding-House Keepers....... 303 266 569 Greengrocers, Fruiterers......... 482 66 548 Cheesemongers, Buttermen, Provision Dealers .... 441 I 52 493 Artizans, Mechanics, Apprentices (undefined) .... 417 13 430 Paviours and Road Labourers....... 426 — 426 Printers ............ 392 7 399 Sugar Refiners -........ 426 426 Upholsterers -.......... 390 16 406 Gas-Works Service.......... 397 — 397 Carmen, &c. (on roads) -....... 366 — • 366 Performers, Showmen, &c. - ...... 291 49 340 Willow, Cane, and Rush Workers ; Basket Makers - - 376 8 384 Furniture, &c., Dealers......... 322 22 344 Fishmongers, Poulterers, and Game Dealers..... 318 ! 35 353 Engineers and Surveyors......... 328 328 Musical Instrument Makers - - - - - 314 4 318 Wine and Spirit Merchants, Agents -...... 301 4 305 Persons without specified occupation or unoccupied : • Aged 10 years and upwards....... 13,332 57,328 70,660 Children under 10 years of age..... 6,039 6,217 12,256 Others (miscellaneous occupations) ------- 16,833 j 1,793 18,626 Total 151,329 96,429 247,758 Statement showing the Principal Occupations in which the Aliens enumerated at the Census7 'otaL 738 715 704 678 674 664 641 603 588 565 521 500 447 442 433 427 407 401 395 392 384 371 331 331 320 80,907 20,993 22,404 86,925 ? AppendixAppendix ; f -----,-.---——---_--|§* Appendix. TABLE LXIL- A Summary of Returns made to tlie Boaijl of Trade by Officers of Customs under Treasury Order 9999- 18911 and G. 0. 22- 1894,2 showing the Number of Alien Passengers who arrived at the Port of London by the German and Dutch Steamers from Hamburg, Bremen and Rotterdam, during the period from 1st April 1894 to 31st March 1902, shewing also the numbers of Steerage (Russian, etc.) Immigrants, Transmigrants ! and other Aliens among such passengers, and giving for the Steerage Immigrants particulars as to Average Means, the number who had obtained Assisted Passages, the ultimate destination of those who were ascertained to be proceeding beyond London, and some of the Principal Sums Produced. Steerage (Russians, Roumanians, and Galicians) Immigrants.3 Transmigrants (about 95% Russians, Roumanians, Galicians).6 onieil Aliens. Year ended 31st March. Immigrants. ~J1 P Assisted Passag es.4 Means. s Ultimate Destinations, other than London.* To America, with Tickets, &c. a5 P (V To America, without Tickets. CC P o To Africa. , OQ .§ To Other Places. P o •M £*2 Men. W omen. c © j s i 5 Total. & $ P p I 3 i * Men. Women. Children. J v -2 SPS m cj •U >-( c st ©-a © & Sh E 01 j- Ph i—i Men. Women. Children. G> ph SF © > < © © ctj a 13 § g s © s PHCC O) & P 4) O . f-i —5 'T* PH£ Men. I 1 Women. Cliildien. Per Cent. Men. Women. Children. Per Cent. Men. ri © s o £ j Children. 1 Total. © u> c3 -M P © © © Men. Women. Children. Total. a> SP © © !h © Pk Men. c © 3 o Children. Total. i © be ! j® I ~a © © © Ph Men. Women. Children. 1 Total. © so ci © © © Ph 5 c © o £ Children. Total. £> to t 5 O O J? S .5 •~JO;isi\ | ________________ i S£ a 'a Sailors. Wo « a © a ?! © o Ph O 1895 - 8,345 1,486 1,096 912 3,494 41-9 89 189 162 126 16 3 3 •6 s. 27-20 - - 60 7 20 2-5 89 23 24 3-8 501., 40'.; 620, 300 roubles ; 4,000, 3,600, 1,050, 900, 910, 906, 700, 540 marks. 614 381 295 1,290 15*5 - - - - - - 172 16 11 199 2 4 740 272 70 1,082 12-0 285 754 623 618 27 1896 - 12,371 3,337 1,686 1,148 6,171 49 9 312 629 562 24-3 4 - •o 24-53 - - 99 40 25 2-6 121 42 44 3 3 1,000/., 140/., 53/., 40/., 30/. ; 3,500, 500 roubles ; 630 i;Larks. 253 264 202 719 5-8 - - - - - - - - - 1,414 87 104 1,605 130 811 236 82 1,129 01 340 814 907 6e obtained respecting the number of Pan per Alien Immigrants, and to far as can be ascertained, their means, their present and ultimate destination, and the arrangements which have been made for their reception on landing. In connection with this Order the Chairman of the Board of Customs, Sir H. Murray, gave verbal instructions for information to be obtained as to whether the Immigrants paid their own fares, oi Uie^Iirect ctnnmmieation to the Board of Trade of particulars regarding Aliens arriving in the United Kingdom, and directs that from all ports from which Alien lists arc now or may hereafter b- furnished under Act 6 & 7 William IV., Cap. XL, monthly returns are to be forwarded showing the total number of Aliens as per ship's report arriving by each vessel, and for 10 per cent, of such vessels bringing Aliens, i he number of male and female adults and children of each nationality, as counted by the Officers. It further directs that for London, in addition to these particulars, the returns are to give the number of male and female Alien adults, and of Alien children, with tli sir nation ibtie«, arriving by each vessel bringing numerous Aliens from Hamburg, Bremen and Rotterdam, as well as the number of those holding through tickets, or booked to places outside the b nited Kingdom, with such information as to the condition of the Aliens, as the visiting Officer can obtain without acting illegally. . :! Russian Jews and Poles including (taking the average for the eight years) about 10 per cent, of Galician Jews. In 1900-01 and 1901-02 are included also 13 and 5 per cent, respectively of Roumanian Jews. 4 Those whose fares were paid by Agents (taking the average for the eight years less than 1 per cent.) had previously been sent back from America to Continental ports by the American Immigration.Authorities. . pm , , „ .. . c mi- i l- 5 In calculating the average means two children are counted as one adult. Those having less than 10 shillings are given in addition, with a view to shewing the number representing themselves as being nearly if not quite wichout means. The average per adult for these would be about live marks, so that there are 3/ per cent either without means or not having more than five snillings per adult. 6 Those to America without tickets paid to Agents abroad their fares to America and were furnished with the addresses of Agents in London to whom they were to apply for tickets to America. Those to Africa and Other Places were furnished with tickets or vouchers. 7 The Immigrants are principally Germans with a small percentage of Dutch, &c., and are waiters, barbers, governesses, servants, &c. * Some Immigrants do not intend to remain in London, but to go on to provincial towns in the United Kingdom, or on receipt of tickets from friends, to America or Africa.ROYAL COMMISSION ON AMEN IMMIGRATION. 77 TABLE LXIII.: Appendix. A Summary of Returns made to the Board of Trade by Officers of Customs under B.0.16,387 —1896, showing the Number of Alien Passengers who arrived at the Port of London by the Banish Steamers from Libau, during the period from 1st April 1896 to 31st March 1902, showing also the numbers of Steerage (Russian, &c.) Immigrants, Transmigrants, and other Aliens among such passsngers, and giving for the Steerage Immigrants, particulars as to Aveiage Means, the number who had obtained Assisted Passages, the ultimate Destinations of those who were ascertained to be proceeding beyond London, and some of the Principal Sums produced. Steerage (Russian and Polish) Immigrants. Transmigrants. i Other Aliens. Immigrants. Assisted Passages. Means. Ultimate Destinations* other than London. America with Tickets, etc. America without Tickets. Africa. Other Places. Immigrants. too P Year endeti 31 st March. «T 0 [S " S c £ 2 o c 05 2 £ a ® % d - > < ® <3 SP-S p & ® xfi 2 & © rj a. as s d « B c . c tH 2 2 o Cent. d ® d V a . o P o> SM 2 'J3 o Cent. § s d © a O £ a V u 2 a o i s s d M 2 3 o $ S d 4) a o £ g 2 O i s d 0) a £ c «> s* 2 IS o s s G be .3 e P A 1 5 i 7.' 1- 2 TO cc a o 09 M C © s "21 0) © ChO 1897 1,721 289 291 189 769 44-7 45 104 80 29'8 ... Marks.' 1214 - 51 67 45 21-2 10 11 15 4-6 430, 350, 200 roubles...... 135 189 165 489 28-4 - - - - - 398 25 36 459 26 7 4 u - - 4 •2 - * i i j - j 1 ! . 1 - 1898 - 4,054 765 804 639 2,208 54 4 129 350 348 37 4 - - 1 r V 12-96 - I 103 37 92 10-5 49 33 66 6-7 300, 200, 200 roubles...... 550 471 467 1,488 36-7 - - - - 305 15 14 334 8-3 3 4 3 10 •3 - 2 1 1 ~ l 2 4 3 5 •3 1899 - 1,850 150 295 301 746 40-4 35 125 165 43 5 - - - 12-50 - - 20 34 43 130 15 16 27 7-7 1,300, 800, 492 roubles- • 257 341 354 952 51-5 - - - - - 95 28 28 151 8-1 - 1 - 1 •o - - ' - - - - - - ' 1 - 1900 - 2,910 277 426 424 1,127 38 '8 49 176 203 379 ~ - - - 25-64 - - 24 39 27 7-9 30 35 23 7-8 700, 500, 400, 365 roubles - 142 176 289 607 20-8 323 356 367 1,046 36 0 82 20 21 123 4-2 1 2 - 3 •1 - - - - - 2 1 •1 1901 i I 4,672 : | 541 724 683 1,948 41-8 54 169 250 24'8 - - - - 27 46 - - 55 91 99 12-5 31 49 86 8-5 £210; 1,500, 450, 350, 305,300 roubles 207 215 331 753 161 552 585 591 1,728 36-9 152 35 29 216 4-6 2 4 1 7 •2 3 5 2 / S 10 *2 - 10 - j •2 1902 - j i 1 5,179 ; 447 795 751 1,993 38 6 42 290 337 33 6 - - - - 2376 - - 69 134 103 15-3 45 62 111 10-9 1,000, 650, 600, 500, 464, 400, 316, 300 roubles - 724 715 889 2,328 44-9 88 103 118 309 60 276 117 119 512 9-8 9 1 - 10 i ! i -2 - i - - - 3 - 24 -5 1 1 Average Percentage in for eight years whole numb* 3rsj. 43'/. - - - 34% - - - - 19 Marl es per Ac ult - 13% - - - 7% - - - - - 20% - - - - 27% - - - 10% - - ( less - -j! than li 1% (- -i - _ J \ less than 1% i- - - -I less than 1% 1 Board's Order 16,387—1896 directs that vessels arriving with numerous Aliens from Libau are to be dealt with in the Return to the Board of Trade in the same manner as those arriving from Hamburg, Bremen, and Rotterdam. 2 Those to America without tickets paid to agents in Russia their fares to America, and were furnished with the addresses of agents in London to whom they were to apply for tickets to America. Those to Africa and other places were furnished with tickets or vouchers. * Some Immigrants do not intend to remain in London, but to go on to provincial towns in the U niled Kingdom, or on receipt of tickets from friends, to America or Africa. 1 Board's Order 16,387—1896 directs that vessels arriving with numerous Aliens from Libau are to be dealt with in the Return to the Board of Trade in the same manner as those arriving from Hamburg, Bremen, and Rotterdam. 2 Those to America without tickets paid to agents in Russia their fares to America, and were furnished with the addresses of agents in London to whom they were to apply for tickets to America. Those to Africa and other places were furnished with tickets or vouchers. * Some Immigrants do not intend to remain in London, but to go on to provincial towns in the U niled Kingdom, or on receipt of tickets from friends, to America or Africa. 6144, Q C78 AfTENfrli 1 Appendix. TABLE LXIII (a). A Summary of Returns made to the Board of Trade by officers of Customs Under Treasury Ordep of Storage (Russians, &c.) Immigrants, Transmigrants, a Immigrants. Year nded 31st March .Total. Total. ! 63 1 : 2."1 23,821 9,361 3,452 2,223 700 594 9999—1891, Gr.O. 22—1894, and B.O. 16387—1896, showing the Number of Alien Passengers who arrived at the Port of London by the German and Dutch steamers from Hamburg, Bremen, and Rotterdatn, and the Danisl ad other Aliens among such passengers, and giving for the Steerage Immigrants, particulars as to Average Means, the number who had obtained Assisted Passages, the ultimate Destinations of those who were ascertained to Steerage (Russians, &c.) Immigrants. Assisted Passages. By Relatives in this Country. Per Cent. By Charitable Societies Abroad, Agents, tS:c. 689 624 190 224 10 3 23-5 45 40 i Per pent. 1 41 Means. •83 309 M>o5 ■S-S § S3 "g £ © —. 0) © n & 0) & p s £ 5 fin yj Shillings. 21-9 18 5 ss & a} .fh 22 3 Ultimate Destinations, other than London. Provincial Towns in United Kingdom. Per Cent. America, Africa, &c. 132 ! 47 I 46 102. 55 90 1-55 12.5 108 40 35 A O 42 34 61 Per Cent. Some of the Principal Sums produced. M7 7*5 HAMBURG, BREMEN, & ROTTERDAM. 701., 43/., 40/., 251., 221., 201. ; 1,000, 500, 435, 325, 280 roubles; 130, 120 gulden; 450, 300 marks. ' • LIBAU. 58I., 261. ; 1,300, 1,100, 800, 575, 500, 200, 150 roubles. Transmigrants. America with Tickets, &c. 226 134 914 925 136 1,185 Total. 496 Per Cent. 21 13,024 | 43-1 America without Tickets. 967 101 168 86 131 97 Tot 1. Per Cent. 1,266 5-3 284 4- Africa* 1,227 1,187 141 262 100 347 steamers from Libau, during the period iroin April 1st 1902 to March 31st 1903, showing also the numbers be proceeding beyond London, and some of the Principal Sums produced. Total 1,468 Per Cent. Other Places! 62 25 5 14 Total. 19 Per Cent. Other Aliens. Immigrants. 1,624 267 Total. Per Cent. 1,956 8-2 363 1,369 1,232 ... - in .a * a £> o T~ to c © p Sn 616 £j CO S ® O cr. pS"3 rs c a a> S O ~ 15-0 \ 6144TABLE LXIY. Table showing the Number of Prisoners of Foreign Nationality Convicted, and the Courts at which they were Convicted during the period extending from 31st March 1899 to 31st March 1903. Courts at which Convicted. UO(/CiTCU. Year Assizes. Quarter Sessions. Summary Jurisdiction. ended 31st Mai ch. Ma^e«. Females. Total. Total of Metro- politan and Provincial Prisoners. Males. Females. Total. Total of Metro- politan and Provincial Prisoners. Males. Females. Total. Total of Metro- politan and Provincial Prisoners. Males. Females. Total. Total of Metro- politan and Provincial Prisoners. 1899: Metropolitan - Provincial 1,011 942 132 96 1,143 1,038 | 2,181 27 33 — 27 33 | 60 124 60 . 1 3 125 63 | 188 860 849 131 93 991 942 | 1,933 1900: Metropolitan - Provincial 982 900 150 107 1,132 1,007 | 2,139 44 25 1 2 45 27 } " 133 48 3 1 136 49 | 185 805 827 146 104 951 931 | 1,882 1901 : Metropolitan - Provincial 1,080 1,036 223 126 •1,303 1,162 | 2,465 58 30 1 2 59 32 / ^ 129 59 1 3 130 62 | 192 893 947 221 121 1,114 1,068 | 2,182 1902: Metropolitan - Provincial 1,258 1,219 293 110 1,551 1,329 | 2,880 02 34 1 63 34 | 97 164 76 1 2 165 78 | 243 1,032 1,109 291 108 1,323 1,217 | 2,5 iO 1903 : Metropolitan - Provincial 1,598 1,386 317 I 148 1,915 1,534 j 3,449 75 61 3 1 78 62 | 140 186 52 6 2 192 54 j 246 1,337 1,273 308 145 1,645 1,418 | 3,063 ( Metropolitan Total-! ^Provincial - 5,929 5,483 1,115 587 7,044 6,070 | 13,114 | 266 183 6 5 272 188 | 460 736 295 12 11 748 306 | 1,054 4,927 5,005 1,097 571 6,024 5,576 j 11,600 Table showing the Number of Prisoners of Foreign Nationality Convicted, and the Courts at which they were Convicted during the period extending from 31st March 1899 to 31st March 1903. Increase per cent, during \ the five years - - - J 53 104 58 Increase per cent, during \ the five years - - - J 53 104 58 The percentage of Alien Prisoners of the total number of Convicted Prisoners received in each of the five years was as follows 1899 - - - 1 36 per cent. 1900 - - - 1*39 1901 - - - - 1*66 1902 - - - - 1*72 1003 - - =____- 1*08 s > 8 g g o 52? O ► g 3 3 g g I—( Q 9S a CO IITABLE LXV. Table showing the Nationality of the Prisoners appearing in the following Return, as indicated by the Birth-place. Total Number of Prisoners Received. Nationality (Birth-place). Year ended 31st March. 02 Total Metropolitan and Provincial. Germans. Russians and Poles. Norwegians, Swedes and Danes. French. Austrians. Italians. Swiss. Dutch. American (U.S.A. and Republics of Central and S. America). Spaniards. Bel- ians. . Other Nationali- t es. : CD ""eg § c3 s r0 h © s S 1 ^otouiaoj^ puis u^i[odfoi^9j\[ psqox *w°x •SOpSTHQ^ •sqi-BH •[ISIOUIAOJtJ pung ni3^i{odoi^0j\[ ^o£ *w°x OJ &T ; PS O H 'XISIOUTAOJJ put? ire^i{0^0-49H i^ox W°X •sopJuiaj •S9p3J\[ •^lOUIAOIJ pU'B u'B^xpdojqieH m°x *TO°X •S9p3TII9j; •{TSIOUIAOI^ piTB u^t|odoi^9pi p^ox wx •sojTeiHO^ •S9IT8H •^iotiiaojj pxre UT8^:t[OdOJ[qi9]^ Ji^ox *TO<>X •sgfBH •fBlOUIAOJJ pms TiT8^ixodoiqi9j\[ wox *w°x •S9^IU9^ •eafBH 1 4 g s 2-a IQ -co I-H SI (M OS iO 3 9 CI io —) g 3 CO !>► ©f (M CM Oi tH OS CO t* • o o ••§ Oi -P os oo o rH - rQ e3" bO P 'cL h- TS a a o pd § pC 0) EH !? as as h l^ox 6144.82 APPENDIX : Appendix. TABLE LXVII. Statement showing the Sentences imposed upon Aliens during the period extending from 1st April 1899 to 31st Anarch 1903. Year ended 31st March. Total Number of Prisoners Received. Males. 1899: Metropolitan Provincial - Metropolitan Provincial - Metropolitan Provincial - Metropolitan Provincial - Metropolitan Provincial - 1900: 1901: 1902: 1903: Total j" Metropolitan \ Provincial Females. 1,011 942 982 900 1,080 1,036 1,258 1,219 1,598 1,386 5,929 5,483 132 96 150 107 223 126 293 110 317 148 1,115 587 Number of Prisoners Sentenced to Penal Servitude. Imprisonment. Total. Total Metro- politan and Life. 20 Years and over 15 Years. 15—12. 12- -10. 10 -8. 1 00 I 7— 6. 6—5. 5—4. 4- ■3. 3 Years. Total Number Sentenced to Penal Servitude. 24 Months and over 18 Months. 18- -15. 15—12. 12 -9. 9—6. 6- -3. 3— 1. 1—14 Days. 14 Days and under. Total Number Sentenced to Imprisonment. Provincial. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. r M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. | M. | F. i M. | F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. M. F. 1,143 1 2,181 - - - - - - - - - - 2 - 2 - 1 - 7 - 4 - 14 - 30 - 1 9 - 10 - 29 - 25 - 60 2 183 16 175 36 486 78 981 132 1,038 J 2 1 3 4 6 1 16 1 3 8 3 8 1 10 35 5 112 12 183 24 561 53 923 95 | 1,132 I 2,139 1 - - - - - - - - 3 - - - - - 1 - 7 - 10 1 22 1 . 7 - 18 - 7 - 20 - 24 - 81 2 192 21 172 25 439 101 960 149 1,007 J 1 3 1 5 1 3 1 14 7 1 38 1 112 23 165 26 555 55 895 107 1,303 [ 2,465 1 - 1 - 3 - 1 - 8 - 1 - 4 - 19 - 2 - 24 - 8 - 42 1 36 1 80 5 220 22 182 79 467 115 1,061 223 1,162 J 1 1 1 3 7 13 1 5 2 7 1 14 2 24 5 129 19 219 37 622 61 1,023 125 1,551 I 2,880 - - 1 - 1 - 1 - - - - - 1 - - - 19 - 9 - 8 - 40 - » 9 - 17 - 10 - 38 - 32 1 94 6 231 21 233 120 554 145 1,218 293 1,329 J 2 1 8 1 9 21 2 3 3 13 f 13 2 £3 6 125 15 226 33 757 54 1,195 110 { 1,915 i 3,449 1 -- 1 - 2 - - - 2 - - - 4 - 1 - 13 - 11 - 15 50 - 14 - 27 1 7 - 50 1 50 4 111 9 290 31 300 116 699 154 1,548 316 1,534 J - - 1 - 2 - - - - - — - — 1 ~ 2 — 5 1 11 1 - " 10 — 3 • - 8 3 9 - 48 8 149 25 258 30 886 81 1,371 147 { 7,044 I 13,114 2 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 6 - 10 - 3 - 48 - 32 - 51 1 161 1 36 - 95 1 42 - 179 2 167 6 426 24 1,116 111 1,062 370 2,645 593 5,768 1,113 6,070 J 3 — 3 3 ~ 2 2 18 8 27 2 66 2 7 29 1 11 50 5 53 5 198 25 627 94 1051 150 3,381 304 5,407 684 | Females. 1,115 587 Penal Servitude. Imprisonment. M. F. 2 - Bound over. 1 - His Majesty's Pleasure. 1 - Death. 2 - Bound over. 1 His Majesty's Pleasure. 7 1 Bound over. 1 - Death. 2 - His Majesty's Pleasure. M. F. 2 - Bound over. 1 - His Majesty's Pleasure. 1 Bound over. 1 - Death. 2 - Bound over. 1 His Majesty's Pleasure. M 3 - Bound over, 'ill - His Majesty's Pleasure. 1 His Majesty's Pleasure. 7 1 Bound over. 1 - Death. 2 - His Majesty's Pleasure.royal commission on alien immigration. 83-84. table lxviii. Appendix. Table showing the Number of previous Convictions recorded against the Prisoners (Alien), and the Trade or Occupation of each before Conviction. Year ended 31st March. Total Number of Prisoners Received. Males. I Females. ( Total. 1899: Metropolitan Provincial - Metropolitan Provincial Metropolitan Provincial Metropolitan Provincial - Metropolitan Provincial - 1900 1901 1902: 1903: Total j I Metropolita Provincial 1,011 942 982 900 1,080 1,036 | 1,258 ; 1,219 I 1,598 1,386 5,929 5,483 132 96 150 107 223 126 293 110 317 148 1,115 587 Total Metro- politan and Provincial. Previous Convictions Recorded. One. Two. M. F. ! M. 1,143 1,038 1,132 1,007 1,303 1,162 1,551 1,329 1,915 1,534 2,181 2,139 2,465 2,880 7,044 6,070 3,449 13,114 81 112 73 110 92 120 100 131 127 174 473 647 12 15 12 7 38 12 40 16 45 20 147 70 23 38 26 43 27 55 27 53 42 54 12 4 145 243 13 5 22 10 20 11 29 11 Threa M. F. 18 17 10 23 13 29 20 | 10 I i ! 27 ! 9 12 20 12 96 81 I 48 41 124 32 Four. M. F. 12 17 4 14 10 13 19 20 12 28 ! 6 27 11 2 12 4 57 91 8 6 46 21 Five. M. 5 9 7 13 10 16 14 14 41 62 6-10 Times. 11—20 Times. M. F. M. 11 4 32 27 15 J 19 j 19 j 18 10 ! 6 21 13 13 j 15 23 I 14 16 I 24 36 13 j 25 34 37 ' 13 79 I 98 136 I 71 13 4 17 14 5 9 8 16 34 69 F. Above 20 Times. M. S f 4 17 11 16 1 10 11 1 12 6 15 12 9, 11 8 42 58 10 56 4 15 16 47 Trade or Occupation before Conviction. Domestic Servants. 110 25 26 96 29 154 34 171 29 M. F. Labourers, Charwomen, Needlewomen. M. F. 617 143 12 12 23 9 35 13 174 241 225 242 244 290 267 273 48 | 461 14 ! 315 27 21 47 23 51 26 79 19 127 ! 1,371 53 | 1,361 66 26 270 115 Factory Hands. Mechanics and Skilled Workers. M. 11 11 29 30 29 41 40 127 126 M. F. 8 10 16 7 10 9 11 16 53 44 405 213 345 202 299 180 348 178 442 230 1,839 1,003 37 7 32 4 63 67 /o 10 Foremen and Overlookers of Labour. M. 1 F. Shopmen, Shopwomen, and Clerks. M. 274 14 24 l(i 61 29 80 22 84 34 95 50 127 43 447 17S F. 15 Shopkeepers and Dealers. M. ! F. 137 61 105 41 157 57 160 61 126 45 685 265 1 13 Professional Employments. M. 22 20 38 10 44 28 3 j 51 8 ; 32 | 6 37 5 37 15 j 192 42 127 Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines. Prostitutes. F. 6 2 10 6 10 M. 89 334 79 317 113 367 129 526 39 17 147 628 557 2,172 No Occupation. F. M. | F. Occupation not Ascertained. M. 1 18 17 23 17 24 99 6 1 42 i 13 25 I I 7 I 44 i I 15 j 34 i I i 9 53 14 40 11 16 85 38 15 97 17 50 4 10 15 1 48 ; 321 i 32 ! I 75 187 i 23 Xote. — 9,880 Prisoners had not been previously convicted. 6144. TROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 85 TABLE LXIX. Appendi x Table showing the Sentences of all Prisoners received into Prisons in England and Wales during the per od extending from March 31st, 1899, to March 31st, 1902. Number of Prisoners sentenced to Year ended 31st March Penal Servitude. a Tl a iO > C 13 <£ god o > P a L- O 3 § >0 O £ tH o c3 2 o eg QO M *02 £ H o> S ^ 2 ° . Ol S f- >—t S3 „ <£> -g II G S3 §! CD 83 l~"4 51 CO cS 5 ? F i—I TO "-1 w -d 2 3 S-< ® o fl I"8i 5l| c2 ® £ " 02 L-J M. F. M. F. M. F, M. F. M. s F, M. F,'! M. F. M. F. M. M. 1899 - 1900 - 1901 - 1902 198 166 310 406 481 382 445 546 18 29 23 18 227 213 240 263 20 19 13 18 1,208 1,058 1,372 1,575 78 86 77 963 982 1,047 1,237 109 100 124 107 3,627 3,612 4,250 4,401 632 i 14,360 705 J 13,716 747 14,793 718 15,434 3,449 3,765 3,700 4,065 22,852 21,909 21,236 24,176 9,297 9,716 10,497 11,589 69,926 66,696 61,123 72,228 31,644 30,649 31,308 31,616 113,842 108,734 104,816 120,266 45,25 45,071 46,502 48,215 G144 UTABLE LXX. *"H' OE WHITECHAPEL DIVISION. Return showing, separately, the number of British Subjects and Foreigners charged, &c. with the various offences named below, each year from 1st January 1892 to 31st December 190L Number of Persons charged. Number of Persons charged. Number of Persons charged. Number of Persons charged. Number of Persons charged. Number of Persons summoned. Number of Persons charged. 1S1 umber of Persons summoned. Number of Persons charged. Year. Crimes of Violence. British Subjects. Foreigners. Burglary and House or Shop-breaking. British Subjects. Foreigners. Robbery and Larceny. British Subjects. m u .£P 'P o Hawking Illicit Spirits ot working Stills. British Subjects. Foreigners. Obstruction by Costermongers. British Subjects. i Foreigners. Obstruction by Costermongers. British Subjects. 02 O 0 'P o Keeping Gaming and Betting; Houses. British Subjects. Foreigners. Keeping Gaming and Betting Houses. British Subjects. Foreigners. Disorderly Prostitutes, &c. (not Larceny.) British Subjects. Foreigners. 1892 - 62 55 7 54 50 4 1,070 935 135 _ 4 2 2 29 13 16 _ _ _ _ _ i _ 344 331 13 1893 - 59 44 15 51 44 7 988 819 169 - - - 26 5 21 14 2 12 - - - 4 1 3 334 320 14 1894 - 64 54 10 45 . : 38 7 964 828 136 4 4 - 45 7 38 8 1 7 - - - 2 2 225 214 11 1895 - 54 35 19 52 35 17 917 772 145 2 - 2 51 6 45 6 - 6 - - - - 1 - 1 277 254 23 1896 - 69 52 17 48 41 ■■7 907 725 182 - - - 29 6 23 43 17 26 5 1 4 4 1 \ 3 251 229 22 1897 - 1898 - 94 70 55 24 52__ -37- - . 15 S70 _689 _ 181 33 1 * 6 32 41 8 33 5 1 4 10 3 ■ 7 264 240 24 87 32 60 34 26 920 761 159 - _ - 73 67 25 4 21 5 5 322 290 32 1899 - 71 52 19 63 24 39 858 687 171 18 18 78 6 72 82 12 70 1 1 - 2 - 2- 352 304 48 1900 - 80 47 33 71 46 25 778 604 174 7 - 7 113 7 106 94 27 67 12 2 10 2 - 2 228 200 28 1901 - (a)69 40 29 1(6)83 65 18 877 696 181 3 1 2 160 8 152 449 74 375 15 7 8 4 1 3 (c)272 220 52 (a) TEls columiTincludes also murder, manslaughter, malicious wounding, &c. (b) This column includes also warehouse-breaking. (c) Charges against prostitutes include cases of drunkenness and disorder, solicitation, using nsulting behaviour, &c. 33 July 1902. «/. Mulwny, Superintendent.ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 87: TABLE LXXI. Appendix. Statement showing the Percentage of Foreigners in the Population of certain Areas in the County of London in 1891 and 1901. Area. Number of Foreigners per cent, of Total Population, Census 1891. Whitechapel - - St. George-in-the-East - Limehouse - Mile End Old Town Metropolitan Borough of Stepney - Metropolitan Borough of Southwark 24*1 16*2 3'1 5*3 11-3 0'7 Number of Foreigners per cent, of Total Population, Census 1901. 31*8| 28*8! ! 3*7; 11*5; 18*2 0*8 TABLE LXXII. Statement showing the-comparative "Overcrowding," &c. in Tenements of less than Five Roomi in the Registration District of Stepney in the years 1891 and 1901. District. Census Year. Tenements of under Five Rooms per cent, of all Tenements. Difference. Average Occupants per Room in Tenements of under Five Rooms Difference. Percentage of Total Population living more than Two in a Room in Tenements of under Five Rooms. Difference.. Whitechapel -1 1891 1901 84*5 85*3 0*8 2*18 2*24 . 0*6 43*50 45*50 .....2*00 _ St. George-in-J thef-East - ^ 1891 1901 87*8 88*1 0*3 1*96 2*08 *12 39-83 45*16 5*33 Limeh6use 1891 1901 77*0 77*7 0'7 1*68 F65 - *03 25-76 24*91 -0*85 Mile End Oldf Town. 1 i 1891 1901 ; 75*0 76*2 1*2 1.59 1*62 *03 22*00 23*79 1*79 6144. ' u 2 6144. ' u 288 APPENDIX : Appendix. TABLE LXXIII. Statement showing the " Overcrowding," &c. in Tenements of less than Five Rooms in each of the Registration Districts of Stepney in 181)1 and 1901. WHITECHAPEL. Tenements with Number of Tenements. Percentage of all Tenements. Total Occupants. Percentage of Population in each Group of Tenements. Average Occupants per Room. Overcrowding. Number of One to Four-roomed Tenements with more than Two Occupants per Room. Number of Occupiers of such Tenements. Percentage of - Population in such Tenements. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. 1891. 1901. 1 room 4,575 3,714 321 26*4 13,396 11,115 18-2 14-1 2-93 2*99 2,411 2,009 J 9,891 8,269 13-45 10-50 2 rooms - 4,167 4,539 29*2 32-3 19,522 22,252 26 *5 28*3 2-34 2-45 2,075 2,456 13,434 16,001 18*26 20-31 3 „ - 2,173 2,572 15-2 18-3 12,221 15,306 16-6 19-4 1*87 1*98 750 1,026 6,256 8,572 8-51 10-88 4 „ - 1,138 1,150 8-0 8*2 7,072 7,624 9*6 I 9'7 1-55 1-66 237 290 2,411 | 2,908 3-28 3-69 ST. GEORGE, E. 1 room 3,837 3,060 37*2 30-6 10,127 8,480 22-1 17*3 2*64 2-77 1,719 1,578 6,737 6,008 14-71 12-24 2 rooms - 2,334 2,604 22-6 26*0 9,720 12,091 21-2 24-6 2-08 2-32 915 1,291 5,597 8,023 12-22 16-35 3 „ - 1,863 2,013 18-1 201 9,785 11,416 21-4 23-4 1-75 1-90 537 711 4,286 5,819 9-36 11-86 4 „ - 1,024 1,131 9-9 11-3 6,086 7,215 13-3 14-7 1-49 1-59 165 232 1,623 2,311 3'54 4-71 LIMEHOUSE. 1 room 2,567 2,067 20-7 16-6 6,321 4,971 i 11-0 8-6 2-46 2-40 1,010 830 3,892 3,069 6-78 5-30 2 rooms - 2,845 3,172 22-9 25-4 10,941 12,063 19-1 20'8 1-92, 1-90 934 1,024 5,636 6,052 9-82 10-45 3 „ - 2,268 2,503 18-3 20-0 10,421 11,555 18-2 19-9 1-53 1-54 424 438 3,302 3,431 5-76 5-92 4 „ - 1,886 1,955 15-2 15-7 10,336 10,677 18-0 18-4 1-37 1-37 204 195 1,951 1,879 3-40 3-24 MILE END OLD TOWN. 1 room 5,122 4,441 20'8 18-1 11,399 9,953 10-0 8-8 2-21 2-24 1,693 1,511 6,323 5,546 5*88 4-92 2 rooms 5,091 5,375 20 6 21-9 18,109 • 19,844 16-8 17*6 1-78 1-85 1,335 1,560 7,963 9,291 7-40 8-23 3 „ 4,675 4,838 19-0 19-7 20,657 j 22,135 19 2 19-6 1-47 1-53 784 919 6,143 7,362 5-71 6-53 4 „ - 3,618 4,048 14-7 165 19,6511 22,458 18-3 19-9 1-36 1-39 333 471 3,238 4,638 301 411 STEPNEY (BOROUGH). j 1 room 1 16,101 13,282 26-1 21-7 41,243 34,519 14-5 11-6 256 2-60 6,833 5,928 26,843 22,892 9-4 7*7 2 rooms - 14,437 15,690 23-4 25-7 58,292 66,250 20*5 22*2 2-02 211 5,259 6,331 32,630 39,367 11-5 13-2 3 „ - 10,979 11,926 17-8 19-5 53,084 60,457 18*7 20-2 1-61 1*69 2,495 3,094 19,987 25,184 7*0 8-4 4 „ - 7,666 8,284 12-4 13-6 43,145 47,974 15*2 16-1 1-41 1-45 939 1,188 9,223 11,736 3-2 3-9TABLE LXXIV. Statement Giving Vital Statistics of Stepney, Southwark and London. Area. Death Rate " All Causes " (Corrected for Age and Sex), per 1,000. Birth Rate per 1,000 Living. Deaths under One Year of Age per 1,000 Births. 1886-1890. 1891-1895. 1896-1900. 1886-1890. 1891-1895. 1896-1900. 1886-1890. 1891-1895. | 1896-1900. Whitechapel - 24*18 25-69 23-38 35-7 40-7 39-2 170 158 144 Comparative Figure - . - - 100 106 97 100 114 110 100 93 85 St. George-in-the-East 30*79 X29-I0 27*12 39-9 -41-4 433 | 195 190 181 Comparative Figure - 100 95 88 100 104 109 100 97 j 93 llmehouse..... - ■ 27*84 28*12 27*18 35-3 33-9 33-4 ! 191 187 204 Comparative Figure - - - 100 101 98 100 96 95 100 98 107 Mile End Old Town ... . 21*64 22-52 21-04 37-5 37*6 i i 38-2 147 154 155 Comparative Figure - 100 104 97 100 100 I 102 100 105 105 Metropolitan Borough of Stepney - 25*00 25*48 23-82 37-0 38-3 | 38-4 170 168 165 Comparative Figure - - - 100 102 95 100 104 104 100 99 97 Metropolitan Borough of Southwark - 24-89 25-80 25-00 35-5 35-1 34 3 172 18JL 186 Comparative Figure - 100 104 100 100 99 97 100 105 108 London ......... 21*02 21*15 19-75 32-2 30-9 29-8 153 156 161 Comparative Figure ... 100 101 94 100 96 93 100 102 105 t %90 APPENDIX : Appendix. TABLE LXXY. Statement showing Country of Birth of Foreigners enumerated in tlie Metropolitan Borough of Stepney and in the Eegistration Districts comprised therein of (17) Whitechapel,, (18) St. George-in-the-East, (19) Stepney, (20) Mile End Old Town. Country of Metropolitan Borough of Stepney. Registration District (17). Whitechapel. Registration District (18). St. George-in- the-East. Registration District (19). Stepney. Registration District (20). Mile End Old Town. Birth. Persons. Males. Females. Males. Females. Males. Females. Males. i Females. Males. Females. Total - - 54,310 29,363 24,947 13,336 11,679 7,694 6,420 1,410 741 6,923 6,107 "EUROPE : Russia 30,176 16,023 14,153 8,254 7,380 3,917 3,348 325 256 3,527 3,169 Poland (Russian) - 11,856 6,146 5,710 2,360 2,225 2,066 1,892 175 134 1,545 1,459 Sweden - 206 169 37 25 5 31 6 100 22 13 4 Norway - 231 217 14 7 2 54 2 151 9 5 1 Denmark - 41 36 5 3 1 14 1 18 2 1 1 Holland - 1,870 989 881 520 459 59 42 47 29 363 351 Belgium - 198 108 90 9 5 44 39 11 12 44 34 France 257 148 109 58 51 7 11 46 17 37 30 Germany - - - ! 3,576 2,126 1,450 640 470 580 406 345 169 561 405 ...... i Austria - 3,009 1,683 1,326 813 622 377 313 36 30 457 361 etungary - 147 93 54 35 19 34 14 '7 6 17 15 Switzerland - 28 22 6 5 2 3 2 6 1 8 1 Spain - 8 5 3 4 2 1 - - 1 i - 1 Portugal - - - j f 13 13 - - ~ 11 - 2 - - - Italy 256 181 75 . 28 13 58 16 59 29 36 17 Greece 10 10 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - Servia, Rou mania and Bulg a ria. 1,680 906 774" 361 302 337 267 13 12 195 193- Turkey 181 124 57 54 17 35 22 3 2 32 1ft, ASI A : China 17 17 - - - - - 17 - - - JIpan 1 1 - - - - - 1 - - - Other Countries - ! 5 5 - 1 - - - 3 - 1 - AFRICA: Egypt ! 11 9 2 4 - 5 2 - - - - Other Countries - i 5 3 2 3 1 - - - - 1, AMERICA : i United States F 369 * 243 ' 126 92 52 45 < 27 35 7 71 40 Mexico 1 1 -■ 1 - - - - - - Other States of Central America. 1 i ~ - - - - - - - — - - Argentine Republi a ! 8 4 4 - 1 4 2 - - 1 Brazil ! 7 7 - 6 - - - - - 1 - Other States of South America, 7 2 5 - 2 1 1 1 - - 2-: Country not stated 136 | 72 64 49 48 8 7 7 i 4 8 5ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 91 TABLE- LXXVL Appendix. THAMES POLICE COURT. Return of Overcrowding Summonses heard during 1900, 1901 and 1902. (P.H., London, Oct. 1891, s. 2.) Date of Summons. Date Heard. 4 Jan. 1900 19 April :23 June 7 July I Mar. 1901 14 Dec. 4 Jan. 1902 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 4 Jan. 3 4 Feb. 12 April 17 May 17 May 6 June 7 June II Sept. . 27 Sept. 13 Oct. ,S Nov. 5 Dec. 12 Dec. il6 Dec. 16 Dec. 23 Dec. 23 Dec. ; 30 Dec. 11 Jan. 1900 26 April ,, 29 June „ 18 July „ 8 Mar. 1901 20 Dec. „ 10 Jan. 1902 10 Jan. „ 10 Jan. „ 10 Jan. „ 10 Jan. „ 10 Jan. ,, 10 Jan. „ 10 Jan. „ 10 Jan. „ 10 Jan. ,, 21 Feb. „ 18 April „ 23 May „ 23 May „ 13 June „ 13 June „ 18 Sept. „ 29 Sept. „ 13 Oct. „ 14 Nov. „ 12 Dec. „ 19 Dec. „ 22 Dec. „ 22 Dec. „ 29 Dec. „ 29 Dec. „ 31 Dec. „ Magistrate. J. Dickinson, Esq. ditto - ditto - F. Mead, Esq. J. Dickinson, Esq. ditto - J. Dickinson, Esq. ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto - J. Dickinson, Esq. F. Mead, Esq. J. Dickinson, Esq. ditto - ditto - ditto - ditto - F. Mead, Esq. ditto - J. Dickinson, Esq. ditto - ditto - F., Mead, Esq. ditto - ditto - >3 TABLE LXXXI. Analysis of Foreigners. v* * Showing Old and New Gases Dispersed by tlie Jewish Board of Guardians and Russo-Jewish Conjoint Committee, and from the McFie Bequest from 1895 to 1902 ; also the Total Expenditure incurred in the years 1900 and 1901. 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 JEWISH BOARD OF GUARDIANS. Foreigners arrived during the year. Emigrated Cases. 24 42 46 27 46 73 33 27 Repatriated Cases. Foreigners resident here less than seven years. Emigrated Cases. Foreigner s resident here seven years and upward. Repatriated | Emigrated Cases. j Cases. Repatriated Transferred to other parts of Great Britain. 75 186 185 238 177 883 218 260 104 89 113 161 196 211 142 132 303 315 407 433 417 532 734 502 34 47' 51 75 91 43 66 19 22 29 17 12 18 19 14 25 22 13 20 15 12 6 Totals. 588 77 710 57 840 ■ 74 947 92 938 111 1,820 94 1,195 31 1,007 6 RUSSO-JEWISH CONJOINT COMMITTEE. Russians. Emigrated Cases. Repatriated Cases. Transferred to other parts of Great Britain. Totals. 132 2 121 1 142 5 283 2 166 1 306 — 209 — 195 — In 1900, in addition to the above, there were emigrated from the McFie Bequest - In 1901, In 1902, do. do. do. 4o. do. do. do. do. Total Total Total Expenditure through Board and Russian Jewish Conjoint Committee (including McFie Bequest), Grand Totals. 211 799 179 889 221 1,061 377 1,324 278 1,216 400 2,220 240 1,435 201 1,208 - • - 10,152 - 50 - 20 - . - 12 10,234 Total Total 1900. 1901. Emigrated and repatriated Sent to provinces 10,104 130 Emigration. Repatriation. Emigration. Repatriation. c Cases - - 10,234 By Charities - £. s. d. 3,200 13 7 £. s. d. 3,782 17 8 £. s. d. 2,093 7 3 £. s. d. 2,200 6 2 : By Emigrants 2.323 17 7 1,234 13 0 1,352 12 8 1,273 12 6 . - 3 Total Expenditure through Board and Russian Jewish Conjoint Committee (including McFie Bequest),ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. 95 TABLE LXXXII. Appendix. • Showing cases of Foreigners added to the Register of the Board of Guardians during each of the years 1895 to 1901. ---- 1895. 1896. 1 1897. 1898. Total cases. Total of new cases of foreigners relieved Less emigrated or repatriated Balance added to Register - - - 1,441 606 1,426 703 1,402 797 1,736 900 2,999 2,929 835 723 605 836 1899. 1990. 1901. — Total of new cases of foreigners relieved Less emigrated or repatriated Balance added to Register - - - Added to Reg 1,685 892 2,808 1,774" 2,226 1,124 — 793 ister 1895—1901 1,034 I. 1,102 Grand Total - - - 5,928 <$144 YTABLE LXXXIII Summarising in a comprehensive form all cases of Foreigners Rejected and Relieved after investigation by the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo- Jewish Conjoint Committee (exclusive of "Self-Help Departments"). Y ear. New and old cases assisted by J. B. G. New. and old cases investigated but not assisted bv J. B. G. New cases assisted by J. B. G. New cases investigated but not assisted by J. B. G. New and old cases assisted by R. J. C. New and old cases remanded or refused by R. J. C. New cases assisted, remanded, or refused bv R. J. G. New &nd old cases dealt with by J. B. G. and R. J. C., totals of 1, 2, 5 and 6. New cases dealt with by J. B. G. and R. J. C., totals of 3, 4, and 7. New and old cases sent out - of London by J. B. G. and R. J. 0. Year. , 1895 1. 4,270 2. 283 3.; 1,441 4. 226 5., 406 6. 112 7. 336 8. 5,071 9. 2,003 10. 799 1895 1896 3,872 314 1,426 250 429 73 350 4,688 2,026 889 1896 1897 3,775 399 1,402 350 469 118 417 4,761 2,169 1,061 1897 1898 3,975 434 1,736 363 657 110 583 5,176 2,682 1,324 1898 1899 3,823 3 i o 1,685 316 558 77 432 4,833 2,433 1,216 1899 1900 4,931 619 2,808 539 640 S 73 531 6,263 3,878 f 2,220 1900 Total 30,792 15,191 J 901 4,551 552 2,226 470 439 76 342 5,618 3,038 1,435 1901 ] 902 4?256 506 1,973 426 366 68 i 291 5,196 2,690 1,208 1902 Note.—As the Board only lecords " Rejected Cases " for the purposes of each year, it is certain that many such cases, which are rejected in one year, are afterwards entertained as new cases in the subsequent >'ear. More especially does this occur when the second application is for repatriation.1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 18 17 18 19 [ 97 ] FOLLOWING TABLES ARE INSERTED IN THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Appendix, Handed in by Reference No. Showing the number and description of workshops in the four districts of the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, distinguishing between those occupied by Jews and those occupied by Christians. Showing separately the number of British subjects and foreigners charged with various offences during the years 1892 and 1902. Showing total populations of the Metropolitan Boroughs of Westminster, Holborn, Finsbury, and St. Pan eras. Showing alien populations of the City of Westminster and the Boroughs of Holborn, Finsbury and St. Pancras. Showing numbers of British subjects of the City of West- minster, and the Boroughs of Holborn, Finsbury and St. Pancras. Showing the percentage of British and foreign-born popula- tion to total population of the City of Westminster and the Boroughs of Holborn, Finsbury and St. Pancras. Showing the net movement of the whole population of the City of Westminster, and the Boroughs of Holborn, Finsbury and St. Pancras. Showing the number of persons overcrowded in tenement of one to four rooms in each registration district in the City of Westminster, and the Boroughs of Holborn, Finsbury and St. Pancras, for the years 1891 and 1901 ; in each registration district for 1901 ; and the percentage of overcrowding to total population. Showing the total number of enumeration districts in each registration sub-district, and the number having per- centage of overcrowding exceeding 50 per cent.; exceed- ing 30 per cent., but not exceeding 50 per cent. ; also the lowest and highest percentages in each enumeration district of (1) the City of Westminster, and (2) the Metropolitan Boroughs of Holborn and Finsbury. Showing country of birth of foreigners enumerated in the Metropolitan Boroughs of Finsbury, Holborn, and St. Pancras, and the City of Westminster, according to the 1901 census; and the percentage of foreigners of each nationality to the total number of foreigners. Showing number of refugees arriving in the country, and either relieved, emigrated, or repatriated in the 21 years 1882 to 1902 inclusive, and the cost. Showing comparativea mounts of total, working expenses of Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, and money paid by Shipping Companies for maintenance, &c., during the period November, 1892, to February, 1903. Showing the number of the inmates of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, and the number of those who stated that they were en route from November, 1889, to October, 1902. Showing foreigners receiving Poor Law relief in London and in certain provincial towns. Giving'reports from the London and the principal Provincial Jewish Boards of Guardians, and other bodies. Showing number of pauper? and proportion per 10,000 of population from 1884 to 1900. Showing number of persons affected by increase or decrease in wages from 1893 to 1900 in all Trades ; also in the Clothing Trade. Showing number of persons affected by change in hours of labour from 1893 to 1900 in all Trades ; also in the Clothing Trade. Comparing results of certain enquiries in the sanitary districts of Mile End Old Town, Whitechapel, Lambeth. St. Pancras, and Kensington. D. L. Thomas, Medical Officer of Health for the Borough of Stepney. J. Hayer, Inspector of Police of the C. Division. Edgar Harper, Statistical Officer of the London County Council. ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto N. S. Joseph, Chairman of the Conjoint Committee of the Russo - Jewish Committee and Jewish Board of Guardians. H. Landau, President of the Poor Jews' Tempor- ary Shelter. ditto C. H. L. Emanuel, Sec- retary and Solicitor of the Jewish Board of Deputies. ditto ditto ditto ditto W. H. Hamer, Assistant Medical Officer of Health of the London County Council. 5803. 13006. 13873 (1 A}- 13873 (1B). 13873 (I c). 13873 (Id). 13873 (IE).. 13873. Page 484.. 13873. ;Pages 486 and 487 13961. 15914. 16309 (A). 16309 (B).. 16602 and 16604. 16605. 16609. 1661L 16619.. 17971.[ y* ] Appendix. Table. Handed m by Reference No v 20 Giving list of houses visited in certain streets. W. H. Hamer, Assistant Medical Officer of Health for the London County Council. 18136. 21 Giving list of schools in the East End, in the City, and in the West End, and the number of pupils in each. Rev. Stewart - Head lam, Chairman of the Even- ing Continuation Schools' Committee of the London School Board. 20224. 22 Giving numbers of cases of Jewish foreigners relieved in Manchester, from 1882 to 1902. J. A. Isaacs, Clerk to the Manchester Jewish Board of Guardians. 20755 (A). 22 {a) Giving classification of cases of Jewish foreigners, according to country, in the same period. ditto 20755(B). 23 Giving number of cases of natives relieved in Manchester in the same period. ditto 20755 (C). 24 Giving the trades of foreigners relieved in Manchester, residents under one year, 1901-2. ditto 20755 (E). 25 Giving deaths and death-rates in groups of ages in the City of Manchester during the year 1900-2. J. Niven, Medical Officer ol Health for Manchester. 21872 (A). 25 (a) ' Giving deaths and death-rates in group of ages in Jewish districts of Manchester during the same period. ditto 21872 (A). 26 Showing the degrees of overcrowding and sanitary defects in three districts of Manchester according to nationalities. ditto - . - 21872 (B). 27 Showing the number of persons against whom Receiving Orders were made in the High Court during the three years ended 31st March, 1903; the amount of their unsecured liabilities, and the approximate loss to creditors. E. L. Hough, Senior Offi- cial Receiver in Bank- ruptcy. 22808 (A). 28 Showing the number of alien immigrants against whom these Receiving Orders were made. ditto 22808 (B). 29 Showing the capital possessed by the alien immigrants against whom these Receiving Orders were made. ditto 22808 (C). 30 Showing the nationalities of the alien immigrants against whom these Receiving Orders were made. ditto 22808 (D). 31 Showing the trades or occupations of the alien immigrants against whom these Receiving Orders were made. ditto 22808 (E). ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION, INDEX AND ANALYSIS TO MINUTES OP EVIDENCE taken before the ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. VOL. IV. Presfctiteb to both Houses of Parliament bg (ftotrnnarcii of pis JflajestB- LONDON: PRINTED FOR HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE, by wyman and sons, limited, fetter lane, e.c. And to be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from EYRE and SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding Street, Fleet Street, E.C.; and 32, Abingdon Street, Westminster, S.W.; or OLIVER and BOYD, Edinburgh; or E. PONSONBY, 116, Grafton Street, Dublin. [Cd. 1743] 1904CONTENTS. PAGE Index to Evidence 3 List of Witnesses, whose Evidence has been Analysed - - - - . - - - 71- Analysis of Witnesses (Alphabetically Arranged) - - - - " - . - - 75 N".B.—The subjects under different headings have been arranged.[ 3 J INDEX TO EVIDENCE. Accommodation for transmigrants arriving in London on their way to America or South Africa—Desirability of providing, Murphy 4108, 4898-4916, 5038-5052, 5087-5092. Achi-Brith—Letter so signed and headed " An Advocate of the Alien," published in " Eastern Post," A. T. Williams 1748-1760, 2944-2955. Adler, Dr.—Co-operation of in Census enumeration, 1901, Macleod 645, 681 ; Lovdl 781. Adulteration : Of food stuffs by Aliens, Silver 2674. Number of shops in Limehouse (a) Jewish, (b) Christian, in which milk, butter, pepper, and mustard are sold, and results from samples obtained there, B. L. Thomas 5440-5451. Ditto, Mile End Old Town, ib. 5452-5455. Ditto, St. George-in-the-East, ib. 5456-5457. Ditto, Whitechapel, ib. 5458. Fifty per cent, higher among the foreign than the Christians throughout the Borough of Stepney, ib. 5463. More easily detected by improved system of inspec- tion, ib. 5474-5476. Shop-keepers guilty of, ib. 5833 (6)--5833 (14). Adulteration Acts should be applied to " faked boots" made by aliens, Amstell 12209. Food and Drugs (Amendment) Act, increased penalties for adulteration imposed by, B. Li Thomas, 7186, Milk, aliens mixing with separated milk, Cavalier 9655. Agents Shipping in London : Help immigrants to conceal destination, Landau 16415. Many aliens apply to, on arrival to be forwarded abroad, Landau 16510. Ainstey—Men's boots made at, Weber 19306. Albert Square, Stepney: Great displacement of native population, only one Christian family left, Lewis 17260. Statement by owner respecting, Cohen 19045. Alien Act: As at present administered, refers primarily to immi- grants from Europe; original Act of 1793 and amending Acts, culminating in Act of Will. IV., now in force, were directed against criminal and hostile persons, H. L. Smith 5-9. Provisions of Act of Will. IV., ib. 10. Board of Trade receives, through Home Office, lists of aliens rendered to Customs under Section 2 of Act; Section 3, relating to passports, is not now enforced, ib. 11-14. Should require a statement of destination, ib. 22621. Not a statistical Act, ib. 22624. Auen Expulsion Act : Suggested terms of, Joseph 15876. International difficulties arising from, Joseph 15877. Difficulties of, might be solved by treaty, Joseph 15883. It is better to expel than to exclude, Joseph 16201. Alien Immigrants : Act affecting (suggested), Mead 10667-10780 and 10897.* Adaptability of, of great benefit to country, Prag 17852. Age of new arrivals, Gordon 17604. Bitter feeling towards, S. White 7559; Hodge 8037, 8175 ; Mulvaney 8351 ; Tyler 8633 ; W. C. Thomas 8696; Rose 9097; Francis 8862; Booth 9272; Pam 9319 ; Ayres 9427, 9447 ; Say 9573; Davies 9757-9765 ; Eck 100.51; Bolton 10171; T. E. Williams 18600-1. 6144. Wt. 1321. 1,000. 1-04. Wy. & S. Alien Immigrants—continued. Capabilities of on arrival; many possess knowledge of a trade, Evans 11685, 11704 ; Cohen 15312. Characteristics of: Aloofness, A. White 330-332; 388* ; A. T. Williams 1723-1724 ; Silver 2675 ; Rygate 5932 ; Mead 10835 ; Brown 11077, 11399 ; Cohen 15738 ; Prag 17852. Only exists at first, Gordon 1761L Great capacity for overcrowding, A. White 345, 391. Racial pride, A. White 388* ; A. T. Williams 1748. lling to petty handicraft, Evans 11685. ■Soon become Anglicised, Emanuel 16632; Montagu 16859. Qualities: Good: Great brain power and shrewdness, in- dustry, temperance, domesticity, ambition, stamina, A. White 376 ; Waimer 5261 ; Eck 10122; Dalton 10209, 10176; Evans 11731 ; Davies 9752-9765, 9768 ; Haden Corser 12862 ; Hayer 13070 ; and in Soho 13068 ; Lewis 17320, 17350 ; Prag 17852 , Levy 17900; Williams 18792, 18899; 18958. They lead careful lives, and take great care of their children, Murphy 3963-3965; Rygate 6001 ; Garrett 6568. Thriftiness, Evans 11680; Levy 17899 ; Landau 16298. Amenability to instructions, Evans 11723, 11736 ; Lumsden 14601. Aptitude for work, Evans 11685. Interest in and anxiety for education of children, Mather 10337 ; Williams 18830. Morality, Mulvaney 8333. Doubtful: Solidarity among themselves ; undesirable detachment of mind from English national affairs ; they minister to cheapness, and prefer profit to wages, A. White 377-382 ; Waimer 5177, 5184. Bad: Crawling, underhand ways, perjury, lying, cheating, money-lending, A. White 388. Tendency to incendiarism, ib. 399-402; A. T. Williams 2934-2943, 2977-2982. Aggressiveness, Bix 5361. Socialism, Bix 5362, 5400. Dirty habits, Williams 6236; Francis 8840 : Walker 8967 ; Eck 10124 ; Bolton 10210. Indecency, Garrett 6519, 6554; Foot 6628; Francis 8840; Wallcer 8967 ; Ayres 9396, 9428 ; Bolton 10211. Insobriety amongst miners (alien)$ Lumsden 14598. Are not cleanly, A. White 1190; A. T. Williams 1725, 1730; Silver 2658, Belcher 4192-4193 ; Loane 4573-4576 ; Evans 11736. They improve in this respect as they become longer resident in this country, ib. 4575- 4577 ; B. L. Thomas 5775 ; Rygate 5877, 5988; Brown 11012, 11182; H. Williams 7128, 7155, 7641. Fraudulent bankruptcy. See " Bank- ruptcy." Anti-English feeling, A. White 402 ; Silver 2694; Carter 10244, 10255. Do not trouble to become naturalised British subjects or to learn the English language, Silver 2675-2679, 2756-2764. Comparison with natives, Evans 11705, 11731. a 24 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: $isr>Kx. Alien Immigrants—continued. Compete more with Jews than with Christians, Prog 17852. Condition of, H. Williams 6115, 6167, 7099, 7118, 7142 ; Hyder 7392, 7639 ; Mulvaney 8328 ; Booth 9262. Countries of origin of: Most of the Russians and Poles and some of the Austrians and Roumanians who arrive in England speak Yiddish, the jargon of Russian and Polish Jews, II. L. Smith 150-151. Those who arrive at the Port of London are mostly Russians; there are a few Austrians and Roumanians, Hawkey 839. London Jewish Board of Guardians much per- plexed by constant and ever-increasing influx of poor Jews from Eastern Europe, A. White 902i Criminality of, offences against the Inland Revenue Highmore 10001. Degeneracy of, in Leeds, Connellan 15043c Demoralising effects of, Pam 9365. Deportation of, Mead 10668-10729. Deserted wives and children of, T. Brown 11061. Evasive tactics of, on arrival, II. Williams 6189. Exclusive dealing of, Foot 6665 ; Trott 9006. Habits of: Aggressive towards clergy. Carter 10244. Gregarious, Walter 11472. Assume English names in Holborn, Birch, 14815. Health of, II. Williams 6113 ; Foot 6800.—In Man- chester better than that of natives, Levy 17899; Joseph 15978; Landau 16274, 16378; Gordon 17741 ; Somper, 19114,19249. Illegitimates in Whitechapel Infirmary, Brown 11204. Improvement of, H.: Williams, 6168, 7073, 7077. 7129, 7131 ; Foot 6629; Levy 17899; Somper 19124. Industrial benefits from, Davies 9735 : Brown 11110 ; Evans 11680, 11726, 12033; Landau 16296; Gordon 17609. Labour of, in demand, Foot 6874. Means of, Rose 9102. Methods of dealing with, on arrival, H. Williams 6150, 6207 ; Dix 5378. Of 119,139 arriving between 1891 and 1901, 27,000 were received in the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, and 73 per c^nt. were indirectly assisted, Landau 16326. Number of: In London, Brown 11268. Not stated to be en route, Emanuel 1658^. Miners as, Brown 11261, 11265. Question in House of Commons respecting, Sir Kenelm Digby 11867. Need of their labour, Brown 11288. Occupations and trades followed by. Foot 6652. Costermongers, Mulvaney 8302; Eck 10068; Brown 11348, 11358. Tailoring, 50 per cent, in Soho in hands of, Evans 11935. Occupations of, previous: Most of the new arrivals know no trade, Onion 2576, Majority have belonged to agricultural labouring class—a few have been shoemakers, J. Lyons 3256-3259, 3328-3330, 3342-3349. Many have been labourers, Mr. B. 3600-3601. Physique of, H. Williams 6185. Preference to towns over the country, Hodge S018. Rents paid by, reasons why can pay higher than English, Foot 6898. Repatriation of, II. Williams 7084. By Jewish community—Impression on English minds by such action, Herzl 6327. Sanitary arrangement: Difficulties that deter them from improving, Evans 11736. Observances, Landau 16298. Standard of living of: They thrive on diet inadequate for Englishmen, A. White 333, 1223; A. T. Williams 1598 . J. Lyons 3251. Alien Immigrants—continued. Standerd of living of—continued. Their stamina enables them to sustain prolonged exertion on a minimum of nourishing food, A. White 349. Have great capacity for overcrowding, A% White 345, 458. Work, sleep, and eat in one room, A; White 399 ; Onion 2494; Z. Solomons 3045; J. Lyons 3251. Physical fitness a strange condition to them, A. White 402. They live under filthy conditions, A. T. Williams 1725 ; Silver 2627, 2695 ; Belcher 4191-4193, 4344. Illustrations of this, A. T. Williams 1730 ; Onion 2514-2522 ; Belcher 4231-4234, 4342-4346. ^)o not compare unfavourably with the rest of the population as regards the cleanliness of their homes, Murphy 4926.; Work very long hours, Silverstone 1852.— Keep their shops open until 1, 2, or 3 o'clock in the morning, Silver 2628-2636; Solomons 3006; Belcher 4283. Standard of living in East End lowered by influx of aliens, Barrett 2192; Solomons 3048 ; Belcher 4297; . s lower than amongst Christians, Mulvaney 8331 ; Johnson 8560; Pam 9355; Davies 9740. Is highs Landau 16298. Suggestions affecting, on arrival, Davies 9772-9795, 9844, 9780; Sir A. Newton 10470, 10490. Seating of: Long hours, Davies 9796 ; Evans 11705, 12105. Low wages, General—Some fall into sweaters' hands on first arrival, Evans 11685, 11693. Their life in sweating dens, Evans 11685; Inflow of, increase, Evans 11801; System of work of—Advantages of, Evans 11705. Trade unionism : Action by, in respect to, Hodge 8041. Join, in Soho and Stepney, Evans 12166-7; Treatment of, during journey—Are robbed on the frontiers, by smugglers and the frontier guard in collusion, Landau 16401. Treatment on arrival, Gordon 17780, 17787.; Wages: Of greeners on arrival, Brown 11354; Evans 11685, 11790. Superior to those of natives, Evans 11726, Roumanians, Arrival of, Hyder 7401; Diversion of, would be most serious to shipping companies, Whatley 13838. fato United States in 1901—number admitted; number refused permission to land; number rejected, Cohen 15409. Into London—95 per cent, pass through the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, Landau 16273. Condition of, on arrival at London; large pro- portion of, are skilled workmen, Landau 16274. Difficulty to gauge amount of money in possession of, on arrival in London ; they have been robbed on journey, and they misrepresent, Landau 16282. Lose money on journey, through necessity to bribe frontier officials, Landau 16283. Better class of, proceed direct from Libau, Landau 16284. Not stated to be en route—Sub-division of, Emanuel 16579. Many come over unwillingly, driven by persecution, Montagu 17085. Are not attracted by Jewish charities. Landau 16295 ; Gordon 17601. Better class of Russian and Polish Jews coming into the country now than formerly, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17899. Cases of overcrowding among Jews greatly exagge- rated, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17899. Effect on local trade, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17899. Particularity about, cleverne?^ m preparing food, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17900.index. Alien Immigrants—continued. Higher wages required by, owing to their having more calls on them, Mrs. Li A, Levy 17900. Federated synagogue, Sljivvah Society, Sick Help Society, subscribed to by, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17900. Women of bad character coming over with, easily distinguishable, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17913-17917. Overcrowding in East End not due solely to, as they do not stay long, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17932-33. Greeners, definition of term as applied to, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17945. More skilled labourers coming over now than years ago, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17947. Concentrate in Stepney, reasons for, Mrs. L. A; Levy 17948. English language, how acquired by; English work- people assisting, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17955. Influence of, on sanitary condition and administration of Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town, Dr Hamer 17968. Russian and Polish, numbers of, in Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town in 1894, Dr. Hamer 17968. Percentage of foreigners according to the Jewish Board of Deputies' Reports in Lambeth, Kensing- ton, St. Pancras, Stepney, Chairman 17993. Proportion of houses in Whitechapel and Mile End occupied by, not speaking English, Dr. Hamer 18109^ Tottenham Court Road largely occupied by, Z)r. Hamer 18110. Increase of, nothing to do with key money, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18162. Residential character of Stepney, retained owing to, Mr. L. Solomon 18220-22. Russians and Poles, facility for learning languages of, Captain Denniss 18290-91. Small amount of immorality among, Mr. Ward 18310. Vaccination Act more willingly obeyed by, than by natives, Mr. Ward 18311. Homes of, as clean as those of natives, Mr. Ward 18311. Prejudice of natives against, aggravated by inflamma- tory articles in the Press, Mr. Ward 18312. Observance of Sunday in the East End not affected by, Mr. Ward 18312. Overdrowded districts in St. George's mostly inhabited by, T. E. Williams 18495, 18571-73. Not causing displacement of native workmen, T. E. Williams 18496, 18501, 18540. Jews, dislike of poorer natives to, T. E. Williami 18509. System of working in home workshops not in- troduced by, T. E. Williams 18537. Escaping infectious diseases, T. E. Williams 18537. Not dirtier than natives of same class, T. E. Williams 18537. Shoemaking and clothing, class of trade introduced by, in which the English also find employment, T. E. Williams 18540-42. Success of, as shopkeepers due to trouble they take to please, T. E. Williams 18549. Career of Russo-Polish Jew from "greener" to manufacturer, Abrahams 18899. Food of workpeople as good as that of natives, Abrahams 18899. Rubber trade almost entirely in the hands of foreign Jews, Abrahams 18899, 18921. Cloth waterproofed in London and Manchester chiefly by foreigners, Abrahams 18939. Certificate of character from native town obtainable from Chief Rabbi and a magistrate, Abrahams 18948. Native workmen derive benefit from manufactures created or improved by, Abrahams 18962-65. Ladies' tailoring introduced by, Cohen 18968, 19007. Vessels carrying, met by representative of Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, Somper 19051. Number of, arriving in one year, Lloyd's agent wires arrival at Gravesend of vessels carrying, to Superintendent of Poor Jews' Tem- porary Shelter, who holds licences from various companies to board all such, Somper 19055, 19062. Shipping company carrying passengers from England to America and Canada receives £44,000 for, in one year, Somper 19077. Transmigrants returned as, Somper 19078. How identified from transmigrants, Somper 19087; Alien Immigrants - -continued. Number arriving in London, returns made to Board of Trade, Somper 19095. Take steps to avoid being traced by changing their names, Somper 19099, Greater number remain in the United Kingdom than go to the United States^ Somper 19102. All are received and cared for on arrival at Poor Jews' Shelter, irrespective of creed, Somper 19107, 19194 2,270 lodged at Poor Jews' Shelter, Somper 19110. Dumping, Councillor Belcher's statement contra- dicted, reasons for, Somper 19139. Out of 26,796, only 1,200 remained at Poor Jews' Shelter not knowing what to do with themselves; some have a trade and others a small sum of money, Somper 19140. Employment soon found by them, Somper 19146- 49, Those having no trade and no means are assisted to learn a trade, Somper 19153-4. Or if they cannot exist are sent back by Jewish Board of Guardians, Somper 19161. Bremen tickets describe trades of, Somper 19170. Are all registered at Poor Jews' Shelter, Somper 19189. Poor Jews' Shelter can accommodate any number, Somper 19208. Trades of, how ascertained, Somper 19240, Russians and Jews must deposit a certain sum at the depot, Hamburg, Somper 19257. Austrians and Galicians do not go through depot at Hamburg, but are medically examined, Somper 19258-60. Before embarking, perfunctory character of examina- tion, Somper 19264. Districts to which they go chieflv East End, Somper 19277. " , , Further particulars concerning: Lasting and finishing in boot and shoe trade chiefly done by, Weber 19292, 19434-42 Natives not displaced in boot and shoe trade by, ; Weber 19302, 19306. Oheap class goods introduced by, in boot and shoe trade provides fresh fields for native labour, Weber 19302, 19379-95. Work quicker and are more regular than natives. Weber 19306. Importations from abroad of boots and shoes have been checked through Jews taking up the cheap trade, Weber 19340. Machine work cheaper than foreign labour, Weber 19344. Cheap bootmaking introduced by. Weber 19379, 19381, 19395. Wages of, in boot and shoe trade, Weber 19380, 19392, 19524. Russians and Poles employed by Jewish masxer tailor, Wright 19655. ' Sub-division of labour in tailoring introduced by. D !> $Wright, 19664, " Greeners " receive low wages whilst learning tailoring, Wright 19664. Jews, ready-made clothing trade introduced by, Wright 19673. Women in tailoring displaced by, Wright 19677. Factory Act and hours of work of, Wright 19666, 19742-48. Jews, preference of, for working under one of their own creed. Wright 19672. Skilled workers, difficulty of obtaining, Wright 19671, 19699, 19706. Jews, colony in Reading engaged in tailoring and other trades, Martin 19795. Italian and French in Reading, Martin 19802. Percentage of, in Reading, advent of, a benefit to the town, Martin 19822, 19830. Jewish costermongers sell fish, fruit, and vege- tables, Lyons 19857. Jews buy fish and poultry from natives, Lyons 19857. Jews large consumers of poultry and fish, Lyons 19857, 19893. Jews shop among their own people till they learn English, Lyons 19857. Jewish costermongers' trade in East End in- creased by, Lyons 19857.6 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Index. Alien Immigrants—continued. --Furtlier particulars concerning--continued. Jewish aliens buy as freely from Christians as from their own people, Lyons 19901-02. « Jews only buy meat from Kosher butchers, Lyons 19905. Jews, bread bought wherever it is cheapest by, Lyons 19906. Increased number of Jewish costermongers, Lyons 19916-19922. Prosecutions for. obstructing the street, Lyons 19920. En Holborn do not assimilate with natives, Jones 22010. Characteristics of. employed in Scotch mines, Ronaldson 22051. Habits of, employed in mines in Lanarkshire, Ronald- son 22065. Number of, employed in Scotch mines have increased since the strike of 1894, Ronaldson 22079. In East End have increased rents, because they more overcrowd, Harris 21624. Sanitary defects to houses occupied by aliens of various nationalities in the Strangeways, Red Bank, and Angel Meadow districts of Manchester, as compared with those houses occupied by natives, Niven 21789, 21872. (Table C.) American law affecting, H. L. Smith 22570. Australian law affecting, ib. 22578. Habits of new arrivals as compared with those of old inhabitants (foreign) in Manchester, Gilmour 21203. In Manchester ; effect upon rents, Gilmour 21213. In Liverpool: majority from Western Russia and Poland, Hope 21402. In Liverpool: majority of, come direct from abroad, Hope 21409. In Liverpool: domestic arrangements of, Hope 21411. In Liverpool: method of taking houses, Hope 21443. Effect on Poor Law, very small, Harris 21652. Many arrive in weak state of health, Harris 21677. Introduce cigarette trade into England, Kramrisch 21717. Number of, in 1902, H. L. Smith 22314. Number of, declared to be en route, ib. 22314. From Hamburg in 1902, ultimate destination of, ib. 22331. xlliens relieved in Liverpool, nationalities of, H. L. Smith 22638. Aliens arriving in London during first four months of 1903, H. L< Smith 22639. Aliens arriving at all British ports during same period, H. L. Smith 22640. Aliens arriving in London during September, 1902, national!tv of ships bringing them, H. L. Smith 22644. Method of distinguishing immigrants from other passengers, H. L. Smith 22650. * , Bankruptcies and receiving orders made against aliens during 1900, 1901, 1902, and first three months of 1903, E. L. Hough 22711. Loss to creditors through alien immigrants in those years, E. L. Hough 22719-22722. Nationalities of such debtors, E. L. Hough 22723 -22744. Trades or occupations of those debtors, E. L. Hough 22745-22751. Proportion of aliens' bankruptcies to whole number during above period, E. Ij. Hough 22756. Numerous failures oeccur among aliens too small to warrant proceedings in bankruptcy, E. L. Hough 22777. Total absence of books a feature of alien insolvencies, E. L. Hough 22782. More aliens than British begin business with insuffi- cient capital, E. L. Hough 22798. Collieries, Lanarkshire, number of aliens employed underground in 1902, R. Smillie 22916. Method of obtaining returns showing this number, R. Smillie 22921. Aliens working at coal faces are absolutely unskilled, R. Smillie 22928. Aliens working in mines frequently do so'under English names, R. Smillie 22944. Aliens working in mines generally unable to under- stand instructions, which are given in English, R, Smillie 22949. Alien Immigrants—continued. Aliens are preferred to native miners because they are more docile, and do not stand out for high wages, •JR. Smillie 22957, 22966 ; D. Gilmour 23025, 23030. German miners are skilled and careful workmen, R. Smilie 22954. Alien miners during strikes, being able to live on much less than natives, can fight longer, R. Smillie 22984. Poles, introduction into Lanarkshire, reason of, D. Gilmour 23041, 23057. Nationality of aliens coming to England before the Reformation, W. J. C. Moens 23067. Trade of aliens coming to England before and after Reformation, W. J. C. Moens 23069^ 23085, 23126, 23179. Localities in which aliens first settled down, W. J. G. Moens 23071, 23088. Aliens before Reformation blended easily with native population, W. J. C. Moens 23075. Periods after Reformation in which influxes of aliens took place, W. J. C. Moens 23078-23088. Proportion of aliens to native population in wards of the City of London in 1540, W. J. G. Moens 23092-23104; in 1621, W. J. C. Moens 23113. Alien population in those years were all handicrafts- men, W. J. G. Moens 23112. - Aliens in reign of Henry VIII. placed under many restrictions, W. J. G. Moens 23116. Localities to which aliens migrated when London became overcrowded in 1560, W. J. G. Moens 23125-23147. Persecution of aliens during reign of Charles V., W. J. C. Moens 23077. Countries from which aliens came to England in reigns of Henry VIII. and Elizabeth, W. J. C. Moens 23082, Taxes paid by aliens in 1540, W. J. G. Moens 23093, 23162. Liberty or sanctuary in the precincts of St. Martin's le Grand granted to aliens, W. J. G. Moens 23098. Alien immigrants from Netherlands, proportion of " denizens " to total number in 1567, W. J. G. Moens 23121. Walloon and French immigrants, proportion of "denizens" to total number in 1567, W. J. G. Moens 23121. Dispersion of aliens from London to country towns bv order of Privy Council, W. J. G. Moens 23151, 23199. Entrance of aliens into England in 16th century, regulations restricting, W. J. C. Moens 23148. Charter of Edward VI. conferring privileges on aliens, W. J. G. Moens 23153. Privileges curtailed by Elizabeth, W. J. G, Moens 23154. Prohibitions and impositions concerning aliens, W. J. G. Moens' 23168-2317C. Loans to the Crown by aliens in reigns of James L and Charles L, W. J. C. Moens 23181. Alien poor in 16th and 17th centuries supported by the alien community, W. J. G, Moens 23193. Poll-tax formerly paid by aliens, if now imposed would have many advantages, W. J. G. Moens 23194. Alien criminals, prison definition of " alien," E. G.< Clayton 23217. Alien criminals. (See also heading "Crime.") Compulsory expulsion of aliens, Acts empowering, E. R. Henry 23574-23580, 23583. Channel Islands law as to expulsion of aliens, E. R. Henry 23586. Foreign codes of law generally contain provision for expulsion of alien criminals, Sir A. de Rutzen 23638. Germans—Increasing in tailoring trade, Evans 11916. Italians—Chiefly charged with street obstruction, Sir A. Newton 10493. Jewish—Readily adopt trade union principles, Solo- mons 20524. Swedes—Most competent workmen in the tailoring trade, and chief competitors of British tailors, Evans 11917. Are good workmen on arrival, Evans 11926.INDEX. 7 Alien Immigration : Stopping, remedies suggested, B. R. By gate 6028; T. Herzl 6397. Difficulty must be dealt with where the trouble begins, T. Herzl 6270, 6388. Persecution the principal cause of, T. Herzl 6291. American mode of dealing with, T. Herzl 6393. Flow of immigrants to this country will increase, other countries being more tightly than ever closed L - to them, Hodge 8083. Restricting, mode suggested, Hodge 8133. Stepney, marked increase of alien immigrants during last three years, Mulvaney 8244. Effects on English population, J. W. Johnson 8558. Results of, in Bethnal Green and Whitechapel, Tyler 8625-28 ; W. A. Rose 9122-9130. Stopping, means suggested, W. A. Rose 9146, 9153. ' Absolute exclusion from Britain of " undesirable " aliens, W. A. Rose 9161.; W. Booth 9270. Spreading to Hackney, Haggerston, Hoxton, W. J. Cox 9462-9469. Fair-rent courts suggested as a means of stopping influx of aliens, Rev. H. V. Ech 10063. " Act to restrict the immigration of undesirable aliens," provisions suggested as means of remedying influx of aliens into East End of London, F. Mead 10667-10780. " Undesirable alien," definition of, F. Mead 10667. " Act to restrict Immigration," etc., appointment of Board of Trade Inspectors under, F. Mead 10730. Immigration of undesirable characters should be stopped by law even were there no overcrowding, F. Mead 10840. Checking by information to be supplied by consuls, proposed, F. Mead 10853. " Act to restrict Immigration of undesirable Aliens,'' text of, F. Mead 10897. Rich and influential Jews have power to check stream of, by refusing all charitable aid, Walter 11470. Increased money-earning capacity of districts affected by, Evans 11680. Work in tailoring trades would have to be done abroad if restriction were placed on, Evans 11963-65. Hampers unions through constant inflow of raw workers in the tailoring trade, L. Lyons 14142. Need of regulation from a tailor's point of view, Marston 14387. Increasing in Holborn district, Birch 14820. Has checked advancement of wages and reduction of hours in Leeds, Connellan 15000. Commenced extensively about 1882, Gonnellan 15070. Increased in 1900 owing to severity of measures in Roumania, famine in Bessarabia and bad harvests in Russia, Cohen 15278. Of those, not stated en route, according to Board of Trade returns from 1894 to 1902, Cohen 15434. No exceptional cause for increase of, in 1902, unless, perhaps, great commercial activity in America, Cohen 15437. Many fewer cases of helpless foreigners arriving than formerly, Cohen 15484. From Eastern Europe: 1901-2, returns of Board of Trade, 15784*. Is diminishing, Joseph 15861. Machinery for checking at port of embarkation not available for England, Joseph 15903. A local question, Joseph 16082. Into the United States, historical sketch of its regu- lation by law, Evans-Gordon 16313. Will be reduced in the same ratio as intoleration in Russia decreases, Landau 16475. Not likely to increase, Montagu 16865. Commenced from Poland after the partition, Greenberg 17090. Number admitted into America from England from 1888 to 1900 inclusive, Greenberg 17097. Influence of, on St. George-in-the-East, Lewis 17262. Mainly due to the action of foreign Governments, Lewis 17352. Into the East End has been attended by an immense increase of rent, Lewis 17409. Comparison of populations of Stepney and Islington shows that housing problem of Stepney not really due to, Gordon 17650. Alien Immigration—continued. Is an important factor of the housing problem, Gordon 17740. Due to adherence to the tenets of Judaism, Greenbera 17090. Commenced in 1881 from Russia owing to the May Laws, Greenberg 17092. Into England would cease if Jews obtained rights in their own country, Greenberg 17129. Rents in East End, rise of, not due to, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18140. Holborn, rents in, not affected by, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18161. Decline of trade of small East End shops not caused by, Mr. Ward 18311. Stepney and Whitechapel schools filled with Jews in consequence of, Mr. Bruce 18327. One of the causes of overcrowding in the East End, Mr. Bruce 18329. Restriction of, would cause displacement of native workmen in boot and shoe trade, Weber 19292, 19557. Has markedly increased of late years in Liverpool, Hope 21399. Question in Glasgow has not assumed serious dimen- sions, Pinto 20858. Has not displaced trade or native labour in East End, Harris 21619. Not a burning question in Manchester, Niven 21855. Jewish : Classification of, Finn 20264. Jewish: In Liverpool, principal occupations of, Hope 21448. Alien Labour, necessary at first in cigarette trade, Kramrisch 21717. Alien Lists: Rendered to Customs under Act 6, Will. IV., and sent through Home Office to Board of Trade; required at 29 ports, but at five of these, those aliens only are included who arrive as deck passengers or who, after landing, proceed by train as third- class passengers, H. L. Smith 11-22. Illustration of, ib. 41. Steps taken to check ; particulars generally found to be accurate, ib. 42-47, 52, 141-169 ; Hawlceij 843. A certain number of the aliens not described in to be en route are known to be transmigrants, I?. L. Smith 32-40, 47-51, 119-130. Duty of compiling, alleged to be delegated by masters of vessels in such manner as to destroy the statistical value of the returns, A, White 430-432. Useful in recording number of entries, but by sub- dividing into those " en route " and those " not stated to be " en route " is unreliable as giving alien population, Emanuel 16571. Monthly returns of the Board of Trade, Ema- nuel 16582. Protest against publication of, in present form, Emanuel 16597. Object of, Eddis 21713. Alien Population—In Manchester, Gilmour 21331. Aliens, Repatriation op (see also Repatriation op Aliens) : Liverpool shipping companies bear expense of returning aliens rejected by America to their homes . abroad, H. L. Smith 22627. Persons detained, on account of unfitness by in- fectious disease or other circumstances, to proceed on voyage are at charge of shipping company till able to proceed, A. G. Chalmers 22865. Alien Restriction Law : Anglo-Italian Treaty of Commerce and Navigation, 1883, effect on alien immigration, H. L. Smith 22692. Administrative measures necessary for carrying out, H. L. Smith 22699. Restrictions placed on aliens by Privy Council, W. J. C. Moens 23199. Allen and Hanbury's. See Factories. Amalgamated Society op Tailors : Leeds Branch, Marston 14260. Encourages employment of Jews in workshops, if organised, Marston 14302. Index,8 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Amalgamated Society of Tailors— continued. Reasons why will not give evidence before the Commission, Fersht 20704. Sheffield Branch, membership of, Murfin 14708. America : Alien immigration, method of dealing with, T. Herd 6393. New York. Jewish population, T. Herzl 6394. Assisted emigration to, T. Herzl 6482. Alien immigrants, statistics concerning, F. Mead 10793. Exclusion of alien immigrants, mode of, F. Mead 10859v System pursued with regard to admission of alien immigrants, J. Brown 11365. Intending immigrants frequently deterred from pre- senting themselves for examination, J? Brown 11371, 11404. System of examination makes shipping companies careful whom they bring to the country, J. Brown 11375.: Routes chosen by immigrants to United States, J? Brown 11380, 11381. Immigrants rejected in 1901, statistics concerning; J. Brown 11401. Boot and shoe trade, effect of American competition, Evans 11705, 11710, 11711, 11712. Boot and shoe trade, American competition not affecting, in East London, Evans 11715. Adoption of sub-division of labour in, Evans 11705, 11710, 11731. Superiority of articles produced in, cause of, L. Lyons 14209. Number of foreigners from England admitted from 1888 to 1900 inclusive and number rejected, Greenberg 17097. Attractions of, cause Jews to leave Russia, Greenberg 17204. Number of alien passengers from England to, in one year, Somber 19077. Fewer aliens go to, than remain in England, Somper 19102. Americans : Occupations of, in Borough of Holborn, Jones 21996.; Amsterdam : Jewish colony in, Eddis 21713 (a). American Act, 1903—For regulation of aliens, changes introduced by, H. L. Smith 22570. American Jews—Opposed to immigration of aliens, Montagu 16939. American Leciislation in restriction of immigration. See Legislation.- Anarchism—Jewish anarchists are almost unknown, Emanuel 16632. Anarchist—Definition of, H. L. Smith 22576. Anarchists—In Soho, dealt with by special branch of police, Hayer 13057. Anderson, Sir Robert.—His article in the " Nineteenth Century " on Foreign Criminals, Vincent 22411. Anglicisation of Jews : Greenberg 17105. Very rapid, Montagu 16859. Checked by the adoption of Yiddish posters by missionaries and politicians, Gordon 17622. Anglophobia—Very pronounced in Soho, Walters 13098; Anti-Alienism : Only a local question, confined to Stepney, Joseph 15762. In East End, on account of rent; doubtful if exists to any extent, Gordon 17756. Anti-Anarchist Conference, Police Committee— Object of: to secure that each country keeps its own criminals, Vincent 22463. Anti-Semitism : Danger of incurring charge of, A. White 336. Possibility of an outbreak of, ib. 337. In certain parts of London there is a growing feeling against Jews, not as Jews, but as foreigners; this feeling is practically indistinguishable from anti-Semitism, ib. 980. Feeling against Jews is not anti-Semitic, Waimer 5231; Joseph 15761, 16085; Gordon 17607. Introduced into England and America, Herzl 6244. Unrestricted immigration, anti-Semitic feeling created by, Herzl 6254, 6306. Would be promoted by legislation, Greenberg 17174. Existence of, and cause of, Lewis 17455. No appearance of, in East End until recently, Gordon 17750. Is not noticeable in Reading, Bull 20473. Strong in costermongers' trade, Davis 19934 ; Ph illips 19982. Apprentices : Difficulty in obtaining English, but not so much alien, Vaughan 13161. Encouraged by the Jewish Board of Guardians, Vaughan 13164. Difficult to obtain English apprentices in furniture trade, not so Jewish, Vaughan 13164. Disliked by trade unions, Vaughan 13194. Apprentices—Jewish—Large number of, are members of the Brady Street Club for Boys, Emanuel 16632. Apprenticeship : Of Jewish boys and girls to trades by Industrial Committee of Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15396. System of, in tailoring trade is dying out, Murfin 14759. In the tailoring trade in Manchester non-existent, through action of parents, Policoff 21020. Areas: Closing of, might prevent aliens coming to London, Cohen 15733. Would at first inflict hardships 15737. Argentina : Reference to Baron Hirsch's Colony in, A; White 330, 349 ; Herzl 6370.; Failure of Jewish settlement in, Herzl 6373, 6474. Jewish colonies in—Action with reference to, of Emigration Committee, Joseph 15898. Immigrants to, subjected to close examination, Emanuel 16747. Artisans' Dwellings—Companies have ceased to build in East London in consequence of the increased value of land, Gordon 17708. Asphalt Industry—Introduced by Italians, Birch 14808. Assessment : Method of, arrival at, Dix 5424. Block dwellings, each set of rooms with separate entrance from staircase assessed as a house, J. Brown 11135. Assistant Inspectors—Expressly appointed to inspect workshops, Vaughan 13124. Australia. See Legislation (Colonial).' Austria, Foreign Population—Proportion of, to native population, Montagu 16976, Austrians—Occupations of, in Borough of Holbornr Jones 21996. B. Back Lands (Glasgow)—Houses on, tenanted by a lower stratum of population, Pinto 20997.: Bakehouses, Jewish : In Manchester, condition of, Gilmour 21246.: Condition of, in East London, Both 21935. Bakers, Jewish: In London, practically all foreign born or near descendants of foreigners, Levy 20071sINDEX. 9 Bakers' Society, London Jewish Masters : Membership of, Levy 20071. Has amalgamated with the Journeymen's Union of Bakers: mutual agreement, Levy 20071. Bank : House property, increased value of, due to pro- pinquity, Solomon 18161. Houses near, more valuable as business premises than as dwelling-houses, Solomon 18196. Bankruptcies Fraudulent : Cases of, Burton 13239. Many cases amongst alien boot manufacturers, Burton 13257. Worse cases amongst aliens than English, a3 to assets, Burton 13272. Bankruptcy : Prevalence of, amongst aliens engaged in boot manu- facture, Silverstone 1862-1863, 1989-1991, 2081- 2085; Onion 2502-2513, 2523-2526, 2537-2565; A. T. Williams 2899-2904. Method by which aliens obtain credit, Silverstone 1862-1863, 1984-1991 ; Onion 2559-2560; Burton 13255. Resorted to by sweaters for protection, Evans 11690. Bankruptcy of Aliens : Receiving orders made against aliens during 1900, 1901, 1902, and first three months of 1903, E. L. Hough 22711. Loss to creditors through alien immigrants in those years, E. L. Hough 22719. Nationality and trades or occupations of those debtors, E. L. Hough 22723, 22745. Proportion of alien bankruptcies to whole number during above period, E. L. Hough 22756. Numerous failures occur among aliens too small to warrant cost of bankruptcy proceedings, E. L. ■ Hough 22777. Total absence of books a feature of alien bankruptcies, E. L. Hough 22782. Barran, Rowland H., M.P.—His views on the develop- ment of the ready-made clothing trade by Jews in Leeds, Freedman 20372. Batavier Line—In Rotterdam. Action of company in respect to aliens proceeding to London and English ports, Eddis 21713 (a). " Bayes " and " Sayes "—Pine cloths made by alien immigrants in 16th century, W. J. C. Moens 23139. Beaver Line of Steamships : Is the line by which transmigrants arriving at London proceed to America, Hawkey 894-895. Is outside the agreement made between British and foreign trans-Atlantic steamship companies, hence will take passengers to America independently of the time during which they have been in the United Kingdom, ib. 1437-1438, 1502. Other British lines cannot carry to America except clandestinely, or under a penalty, alien transmi- grants who have not resided in the United Kingdom for a period of six weeks, ib. 1504, = 1526-1533. Prior to the establishment of, in 1899$ all the British trans-Atlantic steamship companies were in the agreement, ib. 1438. Suggestion that many transmigrants travel by, because there is no direct line of steamships from the Continent to Canada, and it is easier to enter the United States through Canada than through a United States port, owing to the inspection on the Canadian frontier being less severe, ib. 1541. Position in Liverpool of, and action in respect to transmigrants, Eddis 21713. Beckton Gas Works : Engaging men, mode of, Simmons 9499. Aliens sleeping in coke-hole, Simmons 9502. Aliens working two consecutive shifts, Simmons 9507. Silvertown, (club in, Simmons, 9512. Sufficient labour could be obtained without alien labourers, Simmons 9522. Aliens, first employment of, Simmons 9525. 6144. Beckton Gas Works— continued. Index. Shepherd, foreman of works, testimonial to, Simmons-- 9516, 9541. Large numbers of Russian Poles (Catholics) employed in; these said to be engaged in preference to Englishmen, owing to bribery of a foreman; consequent ill-feeling between English and foreign workmen, A. T. Williams 1742-1747 ; Tuckwood 1762-1784 ; Sealey 1784*,—1816 ; Simmons 9479„ 9486, 9488. Belgium—Particulars of criminals deported from, to England. H. L. Smith 22469. Benefit Societies—Hearts of Oak—Poverty caused by depreciation of wages through alien influx, obliging members to drop subscriptions to, W. A. Rose 9118. Berdicheff—Oppressive conditions under which Jews live in, A. White 336, 347-348. Berlin Treaty—Roumania, Jews in, provisions con- cerning citizenship, T. Herzl 6438. Berthillon System—Should be applied to keepers of disorderly houses, Bait stow 15180. Bessarabia—Its prosperity, Joseph 16004. Bfssarabian Jews : Their superiority, Joseph 16004. See " Salonica Cases." Beth Din—Should not, as a Jewish tribunal, settle questions of wages disputes, but might settle petty crimes, Montagu 17062. Bethnal Green : Aliens, streets occupied by, J. Foot 6576. Sanitary staff in 1893, 1901, and 1903, J. Foot 6596,, 6965. Alien immigrants, large numbers inhabiting district,. J. Foot 6616. Tradesmen, native, in various trades, practically driven out by aliens, J. Foot 6654. Number of persons for whom accommodation is needed to reduce overcrowding to a normal extent, J. Foot 6690. Boundary Street improvement scheme, number of convicts displaced by. J. Foot 6724. Rents charged by London County Council, J. Foct 6788. Statutory notices, weekly issue of, by Sanitary Staff, J. Foot 6883. Houses, decrease in number of. in 10 years, J. Foot 6902. Overcrowding resulting solely from such decrease* J' Foot 6905. Factories taking the place of houses, J. Foot 6917. Alien influx, bitter feeling caused by, Hodge 8037. Cause of, Hodge 8038. - House accommodation could be increased enormously by rebuilding, Hodge 8101-8107, 8148, 8152, 8170.. Insanitary area, demolition, result, Hodge 8154, 8160. Population to the acre, Rev. W. F. Davies 9710. Jewish population, shifting character of, Rev. H. V. EcJc 10035. Population, Rev. H. V. Eck 10032. Squalor of streets increased by influx of aliens* Rev. 11. V. Eck 10083. Foreign population, Rev. H. V. Eck 10098. Migration of native population to Walthamstow and other places north and east, Rev. H. V. Eck 10130. South-west corner of borough the part most over- crowded with aliens, E. Harper 10904. Foreign-born population, increase during 20 years, E. Harper 10905. Tables giving details concerning alien, British, and total population, also showing movement of British population, E. Harper 10911. Children of aliens born in this district, various calcu- lations as to number and increase of, E. Harper , 10927. Table showing net movement of whole population from district during 10 years, E. Harper, 10960. Emigration of population, cause of E. Harper 10970. British subjects migrating from district, E. Harpir 10968% B10 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Bethnal Green—continued. Births, excess over deaths, E. Harper 11486. Rents increased, E. Harper 11523. St* Andrew's Institute, referred to, Tyler 8615. Improvement in, Joseph 16083. Overcrowding in, not due to increase of population, Emanuel 16601; Sanitary authorities, inaction of, Dr Hamer 18019. Foreign Jews in the habit of visiting Museum; orderly behaviour and cleanliness of, Captain E. Warden Denniss 18270. Houses pulled down in Cambridge Road and replaced by warehouses, Captain Denniss 18286. Chicksand Street School, principally attended by Jewish children, Captain Denniss 18288. Old Castle Street School, where nearly all children are Jews, taking two degrees and several scholar- ships in one year, Captain Denniss 18289. Brady Street Club, Jews taught chess and draughts, Captain Denniss 18293. Warehouses and workshops taking the place of dwelling-houses causes increase of rents and over- crowding in remaining houses, W. Ward 18312. Alien pauperism of, H. L. Smith 22139. Bewohnung—Man possessed of, does not emigrate, Joseph 15986. blllingsgate market : Costermongers get their fish from, Lyons 19887. Fresh-water fish imported from Holland, sold at, Lyons 19890. Birch—Withdraws certain statements given in evidence in regard to the policy of the Holborn Borough Council, and to the action of individual members, Birch 14842*. .Birmingham—Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, Emanuel 16605. Birth Rate in Stepney. See Vital Statistics. Birth Rate—Excess over deaths, in London, White- chapel, Bethnal Green, Mile End Old Town, Stepney, and St. George-in-the-East, E. Harper 11486, See also Vital Statistics. Blake—Inventor of machine which revolutionised the boot and shoe industry; description and effects of machine, causing division of labour and leading to development of workshops, Amstell 12207. Block Buildings : Advantages of over houses counterbalanced by the smaller-sized rooms, Joseph 15796. Erection of, not commensurate with destruction of house property in Stepney, Joseph 16133. To be erected solely as workshops by the County Council, to prevent sweating, Amstell 12215. Blumenthal, Miss—Useful work of as sanitary inspector in Manchester, Niven 21816. Board of Conciliation and Arbitration—Its objects and effects in the boot and shoe trade, Amstell 12209. Board op Guardians—Jews (alien) become members of and take interest in, the work, Barnett 17526. Board of Health—Sanitary inspectors working in con- nection with, in Manchester, Levy 17924. Board of Trade : How connected with question of immigration. Record statistics of emigration and immigration, H. L, Smith 2 ; Cohen 15702. Receives lists of aliens, rendered to Customs under Alien Act of Will. IV., ib. 11-14. Steps taken by, to check alien lists, ib. 42-47, 52, 141-169. Information as to emigration and immigration received by, under Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and published annually, ib. 47-60, 63-64. Passenger lists, nature of, ib. 47, 53-60. Method adopted by, for estimating effect of emigra- tion and immigration movements upon foreign population of United Kingdom, ib. 113-117, 133. Returns furnished. to, by steamship and railway companies, of passengers carried between United Kingdom and the Continent of Europe, ib. 116. Board of Trade—continued. Has no means of recording nationality of foreigners who leave the United Kingdom for places in Europe. Would be glad to have means, ib. 224. Information furnished to, by officers of Customs engaged in watching the immigration of aliens at the Port of London, H. L. Smith 47 ; Hawlcey 820-898, 1311-1569. This information enables the Board of Trade to trace as en route a certain number of aliens not described in the alien lists as en route, H. L. Smith 47-51. But the Department has no means of ascertaining the total number of persons not described in the alien lists as en route who actually proceed to places out of the United Kingdom, ib. 119-130, 134. Special inquiries made by, from time to time, respect- ing alien immigrants, ib. 52. Alleged sources of error in returns of alien immigration prepared by, A. White 430-452. Secret return alleged to be compiled by, of aliens whose appearance when they landed was peculiarly filthy, A. White 946-948, 957-959; Hawkey 1381-1382, 1404-1406. Number of aliens in receipt of parochial relief (in- cluding medical) in 1900, according to nationalities, Cohen 15388. Returns of, of aliens " not stated en route" from 1894 to 1902, Cohen 15434. Immigration of Russians, Poles, and Roumanians, 1901-2, figures of, 15784* ; many en route, Joseph 15863. Action of, in relation to the Salonica cases, Joseph 16009. The alien list, those "not stated to be en route" is not synonymous with " those not en route" Emanuel 16571. Publishes figures relating to immigration and emigration, deducing number of resident foreigners, Emanuel 1657L Methods of, with reference to the preparation of statistics, Emanuel 16571. Its treatment of foreign seamen in the preparation of statistics, Emanuel 16572. Power should be conferred on, to obtain and report on the nationalities of immigrants, Greenberg 17101. Returns of immigrants and transmigrants arriving in London, supplied to, Somper 19095. Statistics of increase of alien population according to, not inconsistent with those of the Census, H. L. Smith 22221. Powers of rejection at Liverpool, H. L. Smith 22260. Estimated balance of movement of foreign passengers between the UnitedKingdom and all other countries, how obtained by ; objections against, H. L. Smith 22354-22390, Foreign seamen, how dealt with by, H. L. Smith 22362. Steps taken to obtain particulars as to aliens arriving at Eastern ports by, Eddis 21713. Action of, with reference to aliens arriving at Eastern ports, Eddis 21713. Have no means of recording the nationality of foreigners who leave the United Kingdom for places in Europe, Llewellyn Smith 22621. Emigrants, including transmigrants, have their con- tract tickets examined by officials if bound for ports out of Europe, A. C. Chalmers 22812. Emigrants' quarters on board ship, and food to be supplied to them, are examined at the port of departure by officials, A. G. Chalmers 22829. Names of all cabin and steerage passengers entered on list by officials, A. G. Chalmers 22838. Re-landing passengers found unfit to proceed, powers of officials respecting, A. G. Chalmers 22857. Foreign ships calling at British ports, Board of Trade's powers respecting, A. G. Chalmers 22879, 22883, 22894. Boarding Medical Officer : Duties of, H. Williams 6043-6068. Powers of, H. Williams 6069-6088. Supervision of, results as regards German ships, H. Williams 6149.INDEX. II Boarding Medical Officer—continued. Extended powers relating to detention of ships necessary, H. Williams 7017. Form of certificate to be delivered by, to master of ship from which passengers have not been allowed to land, H. Williams 7084. Has no legal right to enter moving ship to inspect, F. Mead 10649. General authority to act in cases where ship should be detained or passengers forbidden to land, could be given to Medical Officer by authority, thus enabling him to act summarily, F. Mead 10660. Boot Manufacturers, Alien—Many cases of fraudulent bankruptcy amongst, Burton 13257. Booth, Mr. Charles—Causes of pauperism at Stepney as given in his book on " Life and Ways of the People," A. White 405. Booth Street Buildings : Buildings of the worst type, occupied by the lowest type of people, Loane 4563-4564, 4621 ; Lewis 17348. Overcrowding in, Onion 2516 ; Loane 4562-4572; Murphy 4877. Do not come under bye-laws, Loane 4619-4620; Murphy 4872 ; but proceedings have been taken under Public Health Act, Loane 4619 ; Murphy 4877-4880, 4988-4989. Filthy habits of newly-arrived alien tenants, Loane 4571-4576, 4622, 4694-4696 ; these excused by insanitary condition of the buildings, Murphy 4860-4871, 4880-4882. London County Council, prosecutions for insanitary conditions, H. Brown 11179. Harris, owner of, proceedings against for various nuisances, D. L. Thomas 5524-5532, 5540, 5760- 5761, 5833-5833 (3). Insanitary condition of buildings, D. L. Thomas 5540- 5547. Population of buildings, D. L. Thomas 5548. A few tenements registered, because let in lodgings, D. L. Thomas 5603. Remissness of County Council respecting, D. L. Thomas 5762-5772. Insanitary condition of conveniences in buildings, D. L. Thomas 5773-5774. Boroughs—Immediately joining the city Residential areas are becoming business premises in Girdon 17681. Borough Council: Action of, in respect to costermongers, Davis 19977. Suggestion that property should be acquired by, for keeping rents down and to prevent overcrowding, T. E. Williams 18509, 18521. Borough Council of Stepney: Very active in abating overcrowding, Dickinson 14902. Will be able to cope with overcrowding, Gordon 17767^ Boundary Street Area : Displacement from, of 5,700 people under an im- provement scheme of the London Gounty Council. The area now gradually being occupied by British and foreign Jews, A. T. Williams 1611-1621. Clearance was the largest of the kind, Murphy 5069- 5070. And the site has been devoted to artisans' dwellings, ib. 5071. Only a small proportion of the original occupiers came into the new buildings, ib. 5081. Very bad character of, in the past, Joseph 16254. Bradford : Produces cheap worsteds, Marston 14272. Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 inclusive, Emanuel 16605. Brady Street Club : For Jewish working boys, object of, good charac- teristics of members, their love of exercise and sports in which they excel,- their English charac- teristics, Emanud 16632. Seventy-five per cent, of the boys are born of foreign parents, Emanud 16632. 6144. Bremen : Certificate issued by German authorities to ships sailing from port with immigrants on board, H. Williams 7074. Aliens' trades described on tickets taken at, Somper 19170. Brewers' and Maltsters' Bye-Products—Extensive works established in Burton-on-Trent for the manu- facture of all kinds of cattle food, by the utilisation of ; introduced from Germany, Burlin 20321. Brewery, Mann and Grossman—Displacement of popu- lation by, Joseph 15810. Bribery of police by costermongers does not prevail* Davis 19934. Brighton—Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 inclusive, Emanud 16605. Bristol has a separate clothiers' cutters' trade union* Whatley 13665. British Brothers' League : Object in forming league, J. W. Johnson 8553. Number of brethren, Johnson 8612. Branches of League, ib. 8614. Referred to, Kreamer 9699. British Colonies : Large export trade of boots and shoes done with,. Weber 19300. India, Africa, Australia, Weber 19549. Brixton—Large resort of alien prostitutes, Bairstow 15172. Bromehead Estate (or Antcliff Estate): Leases bought by foreigners, and rents greatly increased, A. T. Williams 1706-1715. Displacement of native population, ib. 2917-2919. Brothels—In St. George-in-the-East, character of, Lewis 17445. Brothels, Keepers of—Berthillon system should be used for purpose of identification, Bairstow 15180. Brown, Mr. Justice—Remarks on the exclusion from America of children sent from England without means, Greenberg 17092. Brumgum—Spirit distilled from sugar by aliens in illicit stills, Highmore 9901-9915. Bucharest—Action of Jewish Emigration Committee at, Joseph 15893. Index. Buenos Ayres—White slave traffic extensive in, Coote 12577. Building Operations in Stepney in 1902 dishoused 2,600 people, whereas only 1,500 were re-housed Gordon 17726. , Bureau Committee—Report of, showing how helpless cases are dealt with, Joseph 15988. Burglary common amongst German criminals, McCon- nell 12730. Burials, Jewish—In 1902; and percentage of popula- tion, Joseph 15955. Burton-on-Trent : Extensive works established in, to deal with bi ewers" and maltsters' bye-products for the manufacture of all kinds of cattle food. Germans at high wages employed to start works, but now English are employed, Burlin 20321. Industries introduced from abroad, now employing English hands, in, Burlin 20328. No foreigners in, Burlin 20347. Business Premises—Erection of, causes rise of rents in Stepney, Joseph 15762, 16109. Butchers, Jewish—Number in East End of London, Montagu 16812. b 2ROYAL COMMISSION. ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Index. Bye-Laws : Public Health (London) Act contains the law enabling a sanitary authority to deal with overcrowding (a) as a nuisance, Murphy 3973-3981 ; (b) under bye-laws for houses let as lodgings, ib. 3981-4065. The bye-laws relate to sleeping apartments only, Murphy 4013-4015. In some districts the rent-limit fixed, above which houses are exempted from the bye-laws, was so low as to exclude nearly all houses from their operation, A. White 1084-1089; Murphy 4012; Loane 4580. Desirability of raising this rent-limit, or abolishing it, Murphy 4011, 4048, 4054, 4795 ; Loane 4583, 4662. The making of bye-laws under Section 94 of the Act is obligatory. Sections 100 and 101 give power to the London County Council to intervene if bye-laws are not made, Murphy 3989-3991. Suggestion that the Council or some other central authority should have concurrent powers instead of only power of acting in default, ib. 5136. Bye-laws were previously made under Section 35 of the Sanitary Act of 1866. Some of those now in force were made under that Act and others under the Public Health (London) Act, Murphy 3992- 3993. The Local Government Board have made certain model bye-laws as suggestions for adoption by the Borough Councils, Murphy 3999-4000. "Lodging-house"—meaning under Act, Murphy 4018. Weatheritt v. Cantlay,—Case of, Was heard in High Court of Justice. Turned on question whether in artisans' dwellings of the block type each set of rooms was in itself a house, or whether the whole building was a house let in lodgings. The Court held that each tenement was a separate house, and therefore not subject to the bye-laws, unless there was sub-letting within the tenement, Murphy 4020-4030. Had the decision been reversed the sanitary authori- ties would have been able to investigate the state of each tenement with far less trouble ; they would have had right of entry day and night, and would have been aided by the moral influence resulting from regulation, ib. 4038. Effect of decision, Foot 6579, 6613. If a tenement be overcrowded, the sanitary authority can take action under the Act without any bye-law, but the process is a tedious one, Murphy 4033, 4039. The real effective machinery to check overcrowding is procedure by bye-law, ib. 4040. Bye-laws against overcrowding could and should be enforced, Murphy 4047. In some districts of London such bye-laws have been made and effectively used; they have been un- popular, but the, London County Council has pressed their use, and public opinion is now more favourable, ib. 4056-4061. Mode of procedure under bye-laws, ib. 4821. Enforcement of bye-laws should remain with Borough Councils, ib. 4062. Difficulties met with by London County Council in exercising power of supervision, ib. 4064. Action taken by the Council, ib. 4080-4088. Prospect of the future enforcement of the law relating to overcrowding, ib. 4090-4096. Difficulty of dealing with evicted tenants; they must in the end look out for themselves ; instance of eviction of tenants from houses closed under the Torrens Act; overcrowding at East End of London would melt away were it systematically dealt with; the people can be spread out by the application of the sanitary law, ib. 4097-4102, 4827- 4841. Increased number of sanitary inspectors necessary, ib. 4842-4847, 5129. Difficulties will be found to be less than anticipated, ib-. 4107, 4852, 5129-5130. Accommodation must be found for evicted tenants, or they will crowd into other houses, Loane 4590. Bye-laws will be of no avail so long as influx of aliens continues. Belcher 4302, 4400-4404. Bye-Laws—continued. Action taken by sanitary authority of Whitechapel* Loane 4579-4625. Delay in passing them in Stepney through Local Government Board objecting to exclusion of exemption clause, D. L. Thomas 5567-5573, 5615- 5619. Reason of objection, ib. 5626-5629. The new Stepney bye-laws have no exemption clause, ib. 5578. Bye-laws are made by Borough Council, approved by Local Government Board, ib. 5580-5582. New Stepney bye-laws have no further regulations affecting detection and abatement of overcrowding, ib. 5584. Not very effective, and seldom used, ib, 5607- 5608. Can be evaded by change of ownership, ib, 5609, 5610. Nearly every medical officer of health in London has abandoned taking proceedings under bye-laws, and lias adopted Public Health Act, ib. 5678- 5688. Eighty per cent, of houses in Stepney could be regi- stered under bye-laws, ib. 5717-5724. Stepney bye-laws appear to omit provisions respect- ing registration, though Section 94 of Public Health Act makes it compulsory to make bye-laws for the registration of houses, ib. 5725-5735. Expunging rent limit, probable effect of, Rygale 5964. Legislation needed to enable bye-laws to be enforced, J. Foot 6613. Enforcing increases overcrowding difficulty, J. Foot 6754. Increased house accommodation must precede an effective enforcement of, J. Foot 6820. Conditions rendering enforcing of, possible, J. Foot 6836-6850. Dates of passing and enforcing bye-laws, 6877. Bethnal Green, weekly number of statutory notices issued, J. Foot 6883. Recurring order, power of magistrates to give, J. Foot 6884. Present mode of enforcing bye-laws gives oppor- tunity of evading, J. Foot 6933. Bye-laws ineffective, improvement suggested, D. L. Thomas 7261, 7280. Medical officers find bye-laws too cumbersome to proceed under, D. L. Thomas 7295. Bye-laws rendered unnecessary if Public Health Act stringently enforced, F. Mead 10610, 10646. Every house taking in lodgers comes under the bye- laws of Public Health Act, F. Mead 10636. Registration in Stepney proceeding rapidly under, Dickinson 14893 ; Lewis 17369. Advantage of, in defining what overcrowding is, Barnett 17591. Regulating tenement houses not properly enforced in Mile End Old Town or Whitechapel, Dr. Hamer 17968. Inadequate number of inspectors to enforce, regarding overcrowding, Dr. Hamer 17968-71, 18040-43. Relating to houses let in lodgings, improvement in cleanliness where enforced, Dr. Hamer 17968. Houses let in lodgings regulated by, Dr. Hamer 17970. Definition of overcrowding according to, compared with Census definition, Dr. Hamer 17996-18001. In Kensington common lodging houses, strict en- forcement of, Dr. Hamer 18002. In Liverpool: a copy supplied to each occupier of a registered lodging-house, Hope 21432. Object of, and their value, Hope 21436. Sanitary authority in Liverpool proceed under, Hope 21441. : Bye-laws in Finsbtjry radopted by Council. Newman 12467. C. Camberwell : Overcrowding in parts of, greater than in Stepney, Joseph 16140. Results of sanitafy inspection in 1897 compared with those yielded in Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town in 1894, Dr. Hamer 17971.INDEX, 13 Canada—Number of aliens going from England to, in one year, Romper 19077. • " ^Canterbury—Settlement in 1567 of Walloon and French immigrants, W. J. C> Moens 23131. €anvey Island— Land reclaimed by Dutch immigrants in 17th century, W. J. C. Moens 23146. 'Cap-Makers—In Soho, of a high class, Hayer 12995. Cardiff—Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 inclusive, Emanuel 16605. Oattle Men : Immigrants work their way here as cattle tenders, A. G. Chalmers 22903. Destitute aliens working their passages to England as, not included in Board of Trade returns of alien immigration, A. White 448-450. Italian, forwarded from Liverpool to London, Birch 14809. Their characteristics, Birch 14811. Many arrive in Deptford, and become dispersed; their character is undesirable, Harris 21681. From America, Eddis 21713. Number of, arriving inwards and proceeding out- wards from Liverpool in 1902,, H. L. Smith 22552. Large number of, proceed to the Continent, ib. 22554. Arriving at Liverpool: character of, ib. 22556. O Division op Police : Hayer 12971. Area of district, Hayer 12973. Nationalities of districts, Hayer 12978. Strength of, very large, Hayer 13045. sOensus of 1901: Suggested inaccuracy of, as regards foreign popu- lation of Stepney, A. White 406-426; A. T. Williams 2956-2961; Belcher 4309-4313, 4331- ' 4341, Walmer 5245. Change made in 1901, in form of Census schedule, with view of obtaining greater accuracy respecting , nationality of persons enumerated, Macleod 479. Effect of change, ib. 481-495. Statistics of foreign population in London County area, ib. 496-551, 558-577. Statistics of overcrowding in Stepney, in tenements of four rooms and under, ib. 594-618 ; Murphy 3926-3948, 3968. In other London boroughs, Macleod 619-624. Possibility of overcrowding existing to a much larger extent than is shown by Census, ib. 628-645. Assistance given to Census enumerators by Chief . Rabbi and others, ib. 645, 679-681 ; Lovell 781; Myers 794-802. 'Diminution in number of inhabited houses and increase of inhabitants in Whitechapel district between 1891 and 1901, Macleod 672-676, 681 ; A. White 1070-1078. Correspondence controverting suggestion .made by Mr. Arnold White in " Daily Express," that for reasons stated by him the Census returns of Russians and Poles are worthless, Macleod 677-681. Definition of word " house" for purposes of the Census, ib. 690-697. Duties of Census enumerators, Vincent 708-713. They have no power of checking accuracy of number of persons entered in a schedule, ib. 714. - Attitude of foreigners in East End of London towards Census, ib. 739-776; Lovell 781-793 ; Myers 795-800. Shows great replacement of foreigners for English, D. L. Thomas 5649-5650. .Number of foreigners in Stepney under-estimated, reasons for this. ib. 5666-5677. St. George-in-the-East. returns, B. R. Rygate 5943. Bethnal Green, statement concerning empty houses in, J. Foot 6769. ^Bethnal Green, increase of population in 10 years, J. Foot 6776. -H Police Division* rough estimate of population, Mulvaney 8424-8443. JReturns made by aliens cannot be relied on, Francis 8879; Rev. A. E. Dalton 10192. Census of 1901—continued. Census returns in East End very unreliable, Rev. A. E. Dalton 10226. Census returns by Registrar-General differing from School Board census returns, Mather 10381, 10396, 10400, 10404. Great care to secure accurate returns of alien popu- lation in 1901 exercised by the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Jewish community: pro- cedure, Emanuel 16597. Children born in England of foreign parents counted as English, Emanuel 16598. Foreign-born children counted as foreigners, Emanuel 16598. Number of foreigners in East End, Emanuel 16598. More systematic in 1901 than in 1891. The normal death rate and School Board statistics prove its accuracy, Lewis 17334. Steps taken to procure accuracy in, in 1901, Gordon 17629. Statistics of increase of alien population according to, not inconsistent with those of Board of Trade, H. L. Smith 22221. Russians and Poles in London in 1901, E. G. Clayton 23286. Germans in London in 1901, ib, 23287. French in London in 1901, ib. 23287. Italians in London in 1901, ib. 23287. Americans in London in 1901, ib. 23288. Austrians in London in 1901, ib. 23288. Percentage of aliens to total population in 1891 and 1901, ib. 23290, 23322. The under-estimate of Russians and Poles in, makes the increase in 1901, when greater accuracy was observed, appear larger than it really was, Joseph 15758. Of foreigners in Leeds, Marston 14327. Comments on, by author of "Jew in London," Joseph 16013. More accurately compiledin 1901 than in 1891, Joseph 16209. Central London—Causes of discouragement to new buildings in, Joseph 15797. Central South London—Free Church Council, as agent, has prosecuted disorderly housekeepers in South London, Bairstow 15163. Certificates : From Chief Rabbi of honesty: with a photograph or by means of finger prints assuring identification, would render it needless for desirables to come to any unpronounced port, Montagu 17028, From Rabbis, given for Argentine and Canadian Colonies, Montagu 17072, Certificate of Character—As a condition of admission into England desirable, Harris 21665. Chapman Estate (St, George-in-the-East): Payment of key-money not allowed on, Silver 2620. Is owned by the Earl of Winterton, Belcher 4117. Position of, ib. 4406. Expiring leases of houses on, bought by aliens, and rents raised, ib. 4132-4140. £16 paid by an alien for key of a house on, the lease of which expired in three months, ib. 4145-4148. This money was received by the agent of the sub- lessee, ib. 4149-4160. Experiences of manager of, in dealing with over- crowding by alien immigrants, ib. 4162-4184, 4189-4213, 4244-4279, 4289-4292, 4412-4479. Filthy condition of certain houses on, occupied by foreigners, ib. 4191-4193, 4231-4234, 4342-4344. Charrington, F. N.—Clearance of disorderly districts by, in East End, Coote 12607 ; Lewis 17427. Cheap Goods Produced by Alien Immigrants : Advantages and disadvantages of, to British public, A. White 1198^1237; A. T. Williams 1599; Silverstone 2004-2008, 2096-2101 ; Silver 2810- 2811; /Sbfomcws 3183-3199 ; J.Lyons 3352-3353, Are not usually sold within the area of their pro- duction, but are sent away, Silver 2812-2814.14 ROYAL COMMISSION OX ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Cheap Labour : Demand for, in England, attracts Jewish immigrants, As White 362. Employment of, contrary to principles of trade unionism, A. T. Williams 1599, Inexhaustible supply of, from abroad. Impossibility of competing with employers who take advantage of it, Silver stone 1826-1832. Keeps down the rate of wages, Solomons 3070 ; Mr. A. 3510. Owing to, the sweating system is now worse than it was thirty years ago, Mr. C. 3791-3795. Cheapside—Land, value of, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18160, 18234. Chedarim, The—Jewish children attend for instruction in Hebrew, Butcher 18847. Chemistry—All improvements in, due to Germans, Burlin 20348. Chief Rabbi—Prepares circular in English and Yiddish explaining Census forms, and urging accuracy, Emanuel 16597. Children of Jews : Large number of imbeciles among, Barrett 2201- 2226, 2309. Regular attendants at school, sharp and loyal to teachers, Mather 10342. Physique of, ib. 10345. Displacing English children at East End Board schools, ib. 10348. Jewish children superior to English in brain power and physique, ib. 10360. Children : Jewish— Leave school at an early age, Captain Denniss 18294. Boys learn handicrafts at secondary schools, I j Captain Denniss 18297. Schools in West Stepney and Whitechapel filled ' with, owing to alien immigration, Bmce 18328. 7 |;jL Proving excellent scholars, largely owing to ^ ' the sobriety and devotion of their parents 1 ' ( and the interest they take in them, Bruce ; r- 18328. Large proportion of,' attending Board schools, Bruce 18333, 1834b * Intelligence of, Myers 812; White 1009; ■ > Bygate 600; Garrett 6551; EcTc 10 9; Bruce 18340. | ; Percentage of, at Stepney Board School (Settle Street) increasing, Mansfield 18391. Poorer class attending Settle Street Board School, intelligent and healthy, Mansfield 18405-10. Come out well in examinations, Mansfield 18422. Knowledge quickly acquired by, Mansfield 18423-25. Many suffer from imperfect sight, Mansfield 18428; but not from ophthalmic disease, Mansfield 18441. Alien Jewish— At Betts Street School, improve rapidly, Nugent 18745-51. Are well behaved, obedient, and of a high order of intelligence, ib. 18752, 18759. Fond of games, loyal and desirous of becoming as English as possible, ib. 18754-7 ; Bawden 18873. Quick at learning the language, Nugent 18758, 18761. Successful in competitions, ib. 18763. S Girls at Betts Street School tractable and i loyal, ib. 18765. Physique of, good, ib. 18768. Betts Street School receives a grant for, from Jewish Athletic Association, ib. 18769. Increasing numbers attending Lower Chapman Street School, Butcher 18795; Rapidly become Anglicised, Bawden 18873. Attend school more regularly than English, But- cher, 18831. Cleanliness of, at school depending on standard , of the master, ib. 18839. Children—continued, Alien Jewish—continued. Religious instruction at Christian Street School,. Butcher 18846, 18851-54. Attend the Chedarim for instruction in Hebrew, . ib. 18847. Visit places of interest and show intelligent- appreciation of all they see, Bawden 18868. Are excellent workers in school, and regular in.. attending, ib. 18868. Are apprenticed to various trades on leaving school by the Jewish Board of Guardians, ib. 18868. Prefer Jewish schools,- ib. 18879. No racial hatred between Jewish and Christian, 18878, 18884. Christian— Attending St. Mary's School, Whitechapel, in preference to the Board school, Mansfield 18395-6. Attend the same schools as Jewish, Butcher 18810.... And Jewish compared; superior industry and intelligence of foreign child, ib. 18820. Christian Home. See Whitechapel. Cigar Factories—Hours of, are short, Vaughan 13179. Circulars in Yiddish—Sent spasmodically to wrarn aliens against immigration, by Jewish Board of Guar- dians ; result of, probably satisfactory, Cohen 15641. City of London, The : House property in Broad Street, increased value of, Lewis Solomon 18142, 18189. House property in Tenter Ground, value of, owing to proximity to, ib. 18144. House property in Bishopsgate Street, increased value of, ib. 18189. Works in, removed to Tottenham, ib. 18256. Proximity to, causes increase in rents, T. E. Wil- liams 18647. Stipulation of City manufacturers that the work should be done writhin a certain distance of ware- house cause of overcrowding and the erection of new workshops in Stepney, Evans 11659, 31900* Proportion of foreigners in, Emanuel 16601. Clark, George (Clerk to Borough Council)—Letter of, on increased overcrowding in Stepney, D. L. Thomas 5757.' Glark Street—Workshops erected in, causing increased rents, Evans 11665. Cleanliness—Habits of alien Jews, different but not less cleanly than those of natives, Barnett 17512. Clerkenwell—Scarcity of housing accommodation in, Joseph 16104. Cleveland Street, District of St. Pancras : Alien population in, has increased, Ensor Walters 13076. Many houses of ill fame in, ib. 13077. Great overcrowding through aliens, ib. 13077. Erection of flats in, used for disorderly purposes, ib. 13088. Closed Areas : The smaller the area closed the better, Montagu 17057. Should be closed by London County Council, not Borough Council, 17059. Closing Orders—Applications of public authorities seldom refused, Dickinson 14915. Clubs—Number registered in the district of the C Division, Hayer 13039. Clubs, Disorderly : In St. Pancras, Walters 13094. Letter from the Town Clerk regarding, ib. 13094. Coal Mines : Man killed because unable to read rules for safety of miners, J. Brown 11337. Mine-owner can be penalised for employing man who is a public danger, ib. 11340.INDEX. 15 ^Goal-whipping Trade—Disappeared from the East of London, causing replacement of population, Joseph 16099. Coats, Ready-made : Made up by alien labour in workshops, Marston 14287, Process of manufacture, ib. 14289. Made in Jewish workshops are of inferior quality, ib. 14468. Cohen, Morris—Landlord of Albert Square, Dix 5413- 5419. 'Colchester—Settlement in 1570 of Flemish immigrants by licence granted by Privy Council, W. J. C. Moms, 23137. 'Collieries : Lanarkshire collieries, number of aliens employed underground in 1902, R. Smillie 22916. Aliens working at coal faces are absolutely unskilled workmen, ib. 22928. Unskilled labour in mines, defective legislation con- cerning, ib. 22935. Unskilled miners are Lithuanians, employed in the most dangerous part of district, known as " Fiery District,'' ib. 22944. Rules for safety of miners are, in one mine, printed in Russian-Jewish language, but are kept in the office, not posted in mines, ib. 22944. Lanarkshire collieries, number of mines employing aliens, D. Gilmour 23024. Glennyloag strike, Poles filled places of natives at old rate of wages, and these mines are now principally worked by foreigners, ib. 23033. Alien miners congregate together in one place, and are not scattered over numerous collieries, ib. 23038. Lanarkshire collieries, five working days a week, origin of arrangement, ib. 23043. Cadzow and Tannoch Side collieries, aliens no longer employed in, reason of, ib. 23059. 'Colonial Legislation in restriction of immigration. See Legislation. Commercial Road—Key-money in, Lewis Solomon 18191. Commission for the Regulation of the Strangers " —Date and duties of Commissioners, W. J. C. Moens 23156. Common Lodging-houses : Houses let in lodgings (tenement houses), distinction between, Dr. Hamer 17970. Registered under the Common Lodging-houses Act, ib. 17970. Common Lodging-houses Acts : Administration of, in East End, Dr. Hamer 17968. Registration of houses under, ib. 17970. By-laws under the Act of 1891 not enforced to the extent they might have been, desirability of en- forcing, and advantages to be gained by so doing, ib. 18016-18022. Reference to, Murphy 4894. Competition : Of coster mongers. Haden Corser 12876, In trade, with natives by aliens does not exist Joseph 15770. 'Of large establishments most serious evil to small traders in East End, Lewis 17480. •Of Jews, more with Jews than with Christians, Prag 17852. In tailoring trade in West Central London between Jews and English does not exist, Fersht 20704. Of foreign with native costermongers on a fair basis, Davis 19934. Of alien with native workmen does not exist in the boot and shoe trade: reasons why not, Finn 20275. -f* Complete Saturation^ : Of London in 1881 : since when consequent over- crowding, Gordon 17636. Reached in Stepney in 1851, before attained in the Metropolis as a whole, ih 17653. Conference of Shipping Companies—Terms of, with reference to transmigrants, Eddis 21713. Congested Areas : Closing of, an impracticable idea, Barnett 17570. Should be closed to other settlers to prevent further overcrowding, Emanuel 16652. The closing of, will create ill-feeling and difficulties, Harris 21640. Conjoint Committee of the Russo-Jewish Committee and Jewish Board of Guardians, Joseph 15751. Consol, Lasting Machine—Effect of, in boot and shoe Trade, Finn 20275. Consular Certificates : Necessary to prove skilled labourer, Amstdl 12390 ; Evans-Gordon 13349. Should be obtained by aliens intending to emigrate to England from Russia, A. White 940-943, 1040- 1054. Possibility of Consuls discriminating between aliens who have been oppressed and those who have not, ib. 1238-1256. Of trade ability for skilled labour, and of moral character for unskilled labour, Whatley 13853. Difficulty in connection with, ib. 13868. Idea of, not appreciated in America, Cohen 15682. False one issued at Libau, result of, Joseph 15886. Would lead to international complications, Landau 16305. Consular Report on the Trade of New York—Show- ing small number of rejections in America, Joseph 15782. Consular Representatives—Number of, in Liverpool, Hope 21398. Consular System—Of England, very defective, Vincen$ 22416, 22453. Consumer—Is not necessarily benefited by cheap pro- ductions, L. Lyons 14222. Consumption of Meat—By Jews in East End of London : amount of, according to statistics of the Licensing Com- mittee of the Scherita, Montagu 16818. " Contemporary Review "—Reference to article by J. A. Dyche, in, A. White 388. Continuation Schools. See under School Board (London). Contract Labour : Special feature of American laws, H. L. Smith 239. Of Canadian laws, ib. 291. Very undesirable in England, Landau 16456. Alien immigrants not brought here under, Gordon 17602. Law respecting, in Australia, exact inverse of the American law, H. L. Smith 22596. Contract Work, Tailors'—For Leeds Police Force, Marston 14367. Control Stations—On the Continent, list of, Eddis 21713 (a). Cornhill—Land, rental value of, per foot, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18160, 18234. Costermongers : Aliens as, S. White 7658. Costermongers' Association of Great Britain and Ireland, H. W. Blalce 7689. Fulham branch, no aliens admitted, ib. 7696. Alien competition, English costermongers ruined by, ib. 7704. Ice cream vendors, wages earned by, ib. 7705. Alien competition, result of, ib. 7708-7710. English costermongers in London, number of, ib. 7711. Winter, costermongers' occupations, ib. 7714. Alien costermongers selling articles at a price im- possible to English, ib. 7719, 7723. Sanitary laws, alien costermongers evading, ib. 7720. Alien costermongers, mode of living, ib. 7723. Costermongers' " pitch," aliens usurping, ib. 7724.16 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : InbSjE Costermongers- continued. —j=r- Police appear to side with aliens, ib. 7729. Sunday trading permitted to aliens in East End, but prohibited in other parts of London, ib. 7734. Jewish costermongers, seven days' trading among, ib. 7736. . Sunday trading in ice creams general in all parts of London, ib. 7738. Italian costermongers, articles traded in, ib. 7747. Jewish East End costermongers, articles t-raded in, ib. -7748. Italian costermongers, importing, ib. 7751. Asylum Road, Kingston-on-Thames, Italian coster- monger colony in, ib. 7753. Children of alien costermongers, ib. 7770. Battersea, conduct of Jewish costermongers resulting in turning away of all, ib. 7783. Hawkers distinct from costermongers, ib. 7792. Licence required by costermonger selling non- perishable goods, ib. 7796. Perishable goods require no licence, ib. 7798. Russian and Polish hawkers, ib. 7802. Costermongers' barrows, legal size, ib. 7804. j Police regulations as to costermongers, ib. 7804-781L j Statistics concerning costermongers, ib. 7812. I " Costermonger " defined, ib. 7818. ! Costermongers, law concerning obstruction by, ib. [ 7830, 7833. * Ice creams, English dealers ousted by aliens, ib. | 7839, 7880. £ " Hawking," defined, ib. 7842, 7848. Hawker's licence, cost of, ib. 7847. Pedlar's certificate, cost, of, ib. 7848. Fulham Costermongers' Union, ib. 7850. Aliens, costermongers objecting to, reasons for, ib. i 7859. ; Sweating system, costermongers objecting to, ib. 7863. Low-priced goods, sale of, ib. 7870, jj Ice cream trade, no competition in, ib. 7879. } Legislation against alien immigration desired by costermongers, ib. 7886. ; Alien costermongers, privileges granted to, at Bourne- i mouth, ib. 7886. i Alien costermongers, Poll Tax on, suggested as s means of restricting immigration, ib. 7893. £■ Hoxton Costermongers' Union, W. Ball 7899. p Special object of Union, ib: 7903. ! Procedure of borough council against costermongers, : ib. 7905-7911. Crowding streets by alien costermongers causes police to clear out all, ib. 7912. Costermongers summoned for obstruction at Stoke ' Newington, ib. 7915. Alien costermongers competing with shops, ib. 7922. i Underselling by Aliens, ib. 7926. Enterprise of aliens, ib. 7927. Markets, night and morning, aliens methods con- cerning, ib. 7929. Alien costermongers employed by master who buys goods, they only selling, ib. 7930, 7955. Men sleep where goods are kept, thus saving rent and enabling them to sell cheaper, than English, who have homes, ib. 7932. i Alien costermongers undersell shops, ib. 7937. English costermongers object to aliens on account of unfair dealing, ib. 7940. , Costermonger trade declining owing to alien compe- tition, ib„ 7944. Bitter feeling against alien costermongers, ib. 7945. 1 Ginger beer, aliens selling, at Jd. a bottle, ib. 7947. * Alien costermongers, methods of, ib. 7953. Some wholesale dealers in cheap goods refuse to sell to English costermongers, ib. 7957. Tradesmen's business injured by alien costermongers' awnings, ib. 7965. i Master costermongers sending out men to sell goods i seldom found among English, ib. 7966. I Alien costermongers in Hoxton and Dalston chiefly i German and Polish Jews, ib. 7972. Local authorities locating costermongers in side « turnings where no traffic or custom, ib. 7974. Wholesale dealers (English) supplying costermongers -cannot obtain same goods from Germany as foreign wholesale dealers, ib. 7982. Action of local authorities due to shop-keepers' complaints against alien costermongers, ib. 7985. Co&termon gees—continued. Aliens crowd out and ruin English costermongers,, R. Sharpe 7992. Travelling costermongers feel alien competition more than stationary ones, ib. 8002. Alien competition worst in Stepney and Whitechapel,, ib. 8007. Costermongers' Union, increase in membership, ib.. 8011. English costermongers, increased number of, ib. 8016. Whitechapel Costermongers' Society, for aliens, ib.. 8022. Stepney, alien costermongers summoned by police for obstructing traffic, Mulvaney 8291. Stepney, costermonger question, providing a market would remedy obstruction in streets, ib. 8303. Alien costermongers more difficult to deal with tham English, ibi 8339. Troubles with costermongers result from influx of aliens, ib. 8473-8486. Alleged privileges allowed by police in Samuel Street.. Stepney, to alien costermongers, ib. 8514. Alien costermongers underselling English, circum- stances enabling them to do so, Trott 9029-9031 ; W. Say 9568. Jewish Relief Fund making loans to costermongers to enable them to start, ib. 9571. Feeling of natives very bitter against aliens, ib. 9574.. Increased number of aliens necessitating opening of new markets, ib. 9575. Regulations affecting, and penalties, great increase of obstruction amongst aliens, Haden Corses 12863-12869. Competition of, injurious to natives, ib. 12876. Anti-Jewish feeling among, not general, Lyons. 19857, 19915, 19928. Jewish, sell fish, fruit and vegetables, ib. 19857. Aliens buy fish and poultry from natives provided' it is fresh and of good quality, ib. 19857. Trade of, in East End increased by aliens, ib. 19857. Hour at which stalls are put out, ib. 19867. Fish bought at Billingsgate Market by, ib. 19887-89.. Freshwater fish imported from Holland by, 19887-89. Sell fowls cut up in portions in Middlesex Street, ib. 19893. Jewish, increased number of, ib. 19916-19922; Jewish, prosecutions of, for obstructing the street, ib. 19920. Fair competition of foreigners with natives, Davis • 19934. Priority of right to pitch, ibi 19934. The establishment of regular markets by, would result in failure, ib. 19941. Presence of, benefits shopkeepers, ib. 19942. Prosecution of foreign, due to ignorance of, ib. 19942. Causes of prosecution, ib. 19943. Action of local authorities in respect to, ib. 19977. Are not allowed to sell in front of a shop similar goods, Phillips 19983. Customers of, are increasing in the East End of London, ib. 19995. In Manchester, very few, Qilmour 21288. Costermongers, Foreign—Increase of, due to increased demands of wares they sell, Davis 19934. Costermongers, Jewish—Have always existed in London, Phillips 19982. Costermongers' Unions-—In London, no actual federa- tion in consequence of anti-Semitic feeling, Davis 19934? For proceedings against overcrowding generally fall on Borough Council, D. L. Thomas 5513-5523. In Harris's case, ib. 5549-5559. Country Districts in Eastern Europe— Evans- Gordon 13349. County Council (London): Home Secretary compelling Council to provide accommodation beforehand for people who have to be turned out for improvement schemes, E. Harper 11610. ."Child of Jago," influencing Council, J. Foot: 6718.INDEX. 17 County Council (London)—continued. Efforts to provide house accommodation for working classes, Hodge 8079. Council, after clearing sites, should put them in the market at reasonable price, J. Brown 11094. Grants certificates to occupiers of workshops where more than 40 are employed, Evans 11655. Remissness respecting Booth Street Buildings, D. L. Thomas 5762-5772. Improvement in condition of East End milkshops due to more frequent inspection under, Dr. Hamer 17968. Means taken by, to prevent overcrowding in block dwellings, Bruce 18366. County of London Sessions—Area of, the administra- tive County of London, McGonnell 12758. Cradley Heath—Chain makers, wages of, compared with Stepney tailors, H. Evans 11726. Crime : Increase of, amongst aliens, McConnell 12774. Percentage to respective populations much larger amongst aliens than natives, ib. 12762. In the C or St. James's Division, see return showing separately the number of British subjects and foreigners charged with various offences during the years 1892 and 1902, Hayer 13006. Percentage of, amongst Jews in 1902, Joseph 15770. Serious, Jews on the whole are free from, Emanuel V 16632. Of alien Jews in Manchester is small, Gilmour 21273. Crime, School oe—Existent in London, McConnell 12796. Crimes : List of, in Stepney, in H Police Division, British and alien, Dickinson 14926-14933. Criminality, Alien—Statistics disprove any magnitude of, Emanuel 16629. Criminality (Jewish)—Proportion of, and increase of, Joseph 15763. Criminal Population—In Leeds, not large, Connellan 15043. Criminals (Aliens) : Boundary Street, Bethnal Green, number of criminals displaced by improvement scheme, J. Foot, 6724. Burglars, German, gang arrested, B. Hyder, 7499. Foreign criminals, position of, S. White, 7549. Criminal characteristics of aliens, ib. 7577. Aliens, crimes introduced by, ib. 7577. < Crimes committed elsewhere by aliens from White- , chapel, ib. 7593, 7594. Stolen goods, most receivers of, are foreigners, ib. 7655. I Foreign criminals come to Stepney, Mulvaney 8348 8412-8421. Dishonesty of aliens, J. Francis 8844. Mansion House and Guildhall Courts, percentage of foreigners charged at, Sir A. Newton 10452. , Aliens, offences with which generally charged, ibj j 10456-7. Preponderance of alien over native criminals, ih 10458. Repatriation of foreign criminals, law giving police , power of, needed, ib. 10465-10485. i French police power of deportation of undesirable aliens, ib. 10486. Organised colonies of, in suburban districts, McCon- - nell 12706; Statistics showing increase of, from sessions to sessions, ib. 12707. Classes of offences and increase of the more serious ones, ib. 12727. Comparative figures of aliens and native, showing increase, since 1900, ib. 12745. Develop criminal taint after arrival, ib. 12779. Numbers, nationality of, more easy to ascertain after conviction, through Home Office, ib. 12782. Extradition of, and difficulties of administration, ik 12820. Regard Soho as a refuge, Hayer 13053. 6144. Criminals (Aliens)—con tinned. In Soho chiefly from the unattached people, Hayer 13066. Increasing in Leeds, Marston 14390. Require greater supervision, Bairstow 15182. Deportation of, Cohen 15558. Do not belong to the hard-working alien immigrant class, Landau 16295. Number and nationalities of those in custody 2nd March, 1903, 16314* Particulars of the charges made in the Worship Street Police Court by Mr. Haden Corser, and a com- parison of 1897 and 1902, 16314*. Estimated percentage to total prison population, foreign sailors are included, Landau 16466. Should be restricted, as a separate class, Emanuel 16634. Would not come as steerage passengers, Montagu 17039. Not many come as such ; are made so here by hard- ship and overcrowding, Montagu 17040. Form a stream, different to that of alien immigrants, Barnett 17542. Will not be affected by the adoption of the passport system, Finn 20265. Sir Howard Vincent's Bill to exclude. Details of, Vincent 22403. The power to deport, will be a deterrent to them, Vincent 22432. Suggestion to treat as rogues and vagabonds (Vagrancy Act), Vincent 22441. Numbers deported from Belgium to England from 1896, H. L. Smith 22469. Alien criminals, prison definition of " alien," E. G. Clayton 23217, 23326. Aliens convicted in 1899 to 1903, metropolitan con- victions, ib. 23224, 23337. * Aliens convicted in 1899 to 1903, provincial con- victions, ib. 23227. Total number of aliens convicted in United Kingdom during the five years, 1899 to 1903, ib. 23230* 23533. Summary convictions of aliens in the five years, ib. 23239. Proportion of aliens convicted to natives, ib. 23245. 23339. German aliens imprisoned in the Metropolis in the five years, ib. 23256. Alien criminals, statistics of various nationalities, ib. 23260. Percentage of various nationalities in total number of convictions, ib. 23276, 23339. Crimes of which aliens were convicted in five years from 1899 to 1903, ib. 23294-23298, 23530. Sentences imposed on alien criminals in the five years. ib. 23299-23317, 23523. Previous convictions, ib. 23318, Increase of serious crime, ib. 23325. Cost, approximate, of maintenance of alien criminals. ib. 23341. Alien criminals, difficulty of preventing entry to United Kingdom, E. B. Henry 23557. Difficulty of establishing the fact that an alien con- victed here had been a criminal in his previous country of abode, ib. 23564. Suggestion that in addition to punishment of alien convicted here, he should, at the expiration of his term of imprisonment, be banished from the kingdom under penalty, ib. 23567. Act of George III. giving power to banish undesirable aliens, ib. 23574; Sir A. de Butzen 23633. Other Acts referred to, E. B. Henry 23577. Method suggested of purging the United Kingdom of foreign crime, ib. 23567, 23580, 23593; Sir E. B. C. Bradford 23622 ; Sir A. De Butzen 23630. Difficulty of identifying aliens otherwise than after conviction, E. B. Henry 23595. Method of identifying alien criminals, ib. 23594. Identification by photographs impracticable, ib. 23598. " Finger-print" identification of criminals, foreign countries using system, ib. 23614. Should law be passed empowering expulsion of alien criminals, those unable to pay their fare to foreign port should be sent there by this country, Sir a. \ De Butzen 23637. C18 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Criminals (German)—Offences of, of a more serious nature—burglary, etc., McConndl 12730. Criminals (Jewish)—In Glasgow: very few. Good report from the Superintendent of Police, Pinto 20895. Criminals (Professional) : Invasion of, Dickinson 14959. Causes of invasion, ib. 14963. •Criminals (Yiddish)—Always necessitate an interpreter, McGonnell 12740. Cunningham—His book on " Alien Immigrants to England," and views on the question, Greenberg 17090. Customs : Duties of, under Alien Act of William IV., H. L. Smith 10-13. Steps taken by officers of, to check alien lists, ib. 42-52. Information furnished by special officers of, to Board of Trade respecting aliens arriving at London, ib. 47-51, 123 ; Hawkey 820-898, 1311-1569. Customs and Inland Revenue Act of 1890: Rebate of inhabited house duty allowed under, Loane 4591-4594. Action of sanitary authorities under, often obstruc- tive, Joseph 15818. Customs General Order, 22- 1894—Origin and object of, Eddis 21713. D. Dairies, Cowsheds, and Milkshops Orders—Adminis- tration of, in East End, beneficent effects of, Dr. Harrier 17968. Dancing Rooms, Stepney—Immorality in, J. Pam 9312. Davis Brothers, Firm of Messrs.—Buildings erected by, Silver 2701 ; Belcher 4396-4398; Evans 11735; Gordon 17723. Day of Atonement—All religious Jews attend place of worship on: special buildings hired, Montagu 16838, 16842. Death Rate in Stepney. See Vital Statistics. Influence of, on foreign population in the United Kingdom, Emanuel 16574. Denizens—Meaning of word in connection with alien immi- grants, W. J. C. Moens 23122. Deportation : Of criminal aliens: proposed Bill to effect, Vincent 22403. Prom Belgium to England: particulars supplied through the Foreign Office, H. L. Smith 22469. Destination, Ultimate—Advisability of alien immigrant declaring, ib. 22597. Destitute Aliens : If likely to maintain themselves, admitted into the United States, 15406. Favourable Consular reports, as to the emigration of destitute aliens, Emanuel 16601. Police reports from various towns, showing no increase except in Manchester and London, ib. 16601. Returned to Grimsby by Hamburg authorities, Eddis 21713. Destitute Jews—Remarks of the Russian Consul- General on the surreptitious introduction into England of destitute Russian subjects, Emanuel 16706. Destitute Russians—9,306 admitted into the United States in 1892, Greenberg 17097. Destitution—Very rare amongst Jews : to the extent of squalor, Montagu 16914. Diphtheria : Excessive amongst Jewish population of Man- chester, Niven 21792. Origin of disease, ib. 21795. Disease—Cases of, amongst aliens on arrival very rare, Joseph 16198 ; Landau 16276. Dishousement—Number of people dishoused in Stepney in 1902, and number rehoused, Gordon 17726. Disorderly Characters—Expatriation of, desirable, Walters 13107. Disorderly Districts—Clearance of, by F. 1ST. Charring- ton, Lewis 17427. Disorderly Houses : Stepney, decrease of disorderly houses, Mulvaney 8254, 8446-8460. Oxford Street, Stepney, clearance effected in 1887 by Mr. F. Charrington, P. Walter 11449. Displace native population in St. Pancras, Walters 13079. Letter from the town clerk of St. Pancras regarding assaults and robberies therein, ib. 13095. In South London, largely kept bv aliens, Bairstow 15168, 15194. Raided in St. Ann's, Soho, Fersht 20726. Disorderly Prostitutes (Alien) : Have taken possession of the Leman Street district, Dickinson 14935. In Stepney, a large number freshly arrived, ib. 14937. Dispersion : Of factories and population desirable, Lewis 17356. An excellent scheme to check overcrowding, and is acting rapidly, Barnett 17532. Of Jews should be encouraged, Bull 20468. Dispersion Committee : Founded by Sir Samuel Montagu : object of, Montagu 16769. Reason of delay in prosecuting object, 16781. Action already taken, 16786. Dispersion Committee in America, Montagu 16936. Displacement of British Residents by Aliens : Displacement of native population at East End of London, A. White 362; A. T. Williams 1581. 1589, 1602-1658, 1698, 1706, 1725, 2917-2933, 2986-2992 ; Barrett 2115-2127 ; G. Brown 2381- 2400 ; Silver 2603-2616, 2623-2624 ; Z. Solomons 3220; Murphy 3911-3926, 4728-4732; Belcher 4141, 4295-4300; Loane 4484-4491, 4670-4671; Foot 6576; Mulvaney8230; Johnson 8558; W. C. Thomas 8663 f Gillmore 8807 ; Dalton 10180 ; Trott 9009; Rose 9129; James 9231; Johnson 9558; Coles 9603. Rabbis alleged to instruct Jews to buy always of their own people, A. T. Williams 1584. Suggestion that financiers give them similar advice. Belcher 4317. In Lydia Street, Waimer 5172-5174 ; Dix 5294. In St. George-in-the-East, Rygate 5836-5856. Steadily extending eastwards, ib. 5883-5885. Principal cause of bitter feeling of English in East End against aliens is that they (the English) are turned out of their homes by the influx of foreigners willing to pay high rents, Hodge 8039. Displacement Question, difficulty of dealing with ib. 8156. Derwood Street, Mile End, houses bought by foreigner, repaired, tenants turned out, rents doubled, J. W. Johnson 8558. Stepney, alien influx driving away middle-class English, W, Booth 9251-9257. Whitechapel, Samuel Street, past and present condition of, Ayres 9417. Christian Court, Rupert Street, Stepney, aliens offer rent collector extra rent and key money, whereby English evicted, W. Say 9559. Native residents displaced by aliens put to expense of rail fares to get to their work, Rev. H. V Eck 10131. Native resident displaced by aliens, bitter feeling caused by, Dalton 10144-10152; Carter 10239; Mather 10363. Native residents occupying whole house displaced by aliens crowding in, Dalton 10213. Hackney, displacement of English, W. C. Mathews 10509-10518.INDEX. 19 Displacement of British Residents by Aliens—cont. English elderly men, turned out of homes by aliens, dying broken-hearted, P. Walter 11473. Native population displaced, spreading farther east, Enfield being the limit, E. Harper 11600. Natives displaced expect rent of new abode together with travelling expenses to be less than rent of old abode, ib. 11602. Native displacement caused by erection of ware- houses on sites of dwelling-houses as much as by alien influx, H. Evans 11659. Not experienced now by Italians in Finsbury, Newman 12489. Of natives by foreigners who take possession of all new buildings, causing ill feeling Haden Corser 12897. Of natives by disorderly people in St. Pancras, Walters 13079. By aliens, not in the sense of expropriation, Joseph 15762. By aliens, in the area of the Leylands, in Leeds, Connellan 15018. Due to disappearance of some trades, Joseph 16086 ; Prag 17877. Of population by Jewish landlords, Joseph 16106. Of population in East End by erection of warehouses by the London, Tilbury and Southend Railway Company, Landau 16295. Of native population by Jews in Albert Square, Stepney, only one Christian family left, Lewis 17260. Will not occur if overcrowding is prevented, Lewis 17462. In West Central London due to the erection of warehouses and business premises, Fersht 20668. Of English residents in West Central London not caused by foreigners, ib. 20683. In East End due to economic changes, rather than to alien immigration, Harris 21614. Of population due to change in the character of the trades pursued in the East End, ib. 21621, Displacement or Native Labour by Aliens : Thousands of English out of work in East End owing to cheap labour of alien immigrants, P. Walter 11475. Trouser-making trade, foreigners employed in pre- ference to natives by tailors owing to provisions of Factory Act prohibiting employment of native women and children in workshops open Saturdays as well as Sundays, H. Evans 11685. No case of, in the East End, Evans 11673-74. By aliens owing to provisions of Factory Act respect- ing Sunday labour, ib. 11685. Is making more headway in Soho than in Sternev, • ib. 11705. The employment of Germans and Swedes in Soho does not cause, ib. 11920, 11956. As, owing to the absence of apprentices, there are few native workers competent to fill the vacancies in the tailoring and other trades, ib. 11920-34, 11957-60. Of English labour more indirect than direct in its application, Vaughan 13182. By aliens very large in the wholesale tailoring branch, Whatley 13783. By aliens in the tailoring trade very great in Sheffield, Murfin 14758. Of English native workmen, how from natural causes, Joseph 16096. Does not exist in the East End in the case of leather dealers, Solomons 20511. Of labour by aliens in Glasgow not borne out by facts, Pinto 20896. Ambiguity of evidence concerning, H. L. Smith 22656. Competition between natives and aliens, two distinct kinds of, defined, ib. 22663. Dissemination of Aliens : Would alleviate the evil of overcrowding in Stepney were the influx of alien immigrants stopped, Silver 2747, 2798-2805. Scheme of Sir Samuel Montagu to remove Jews from Stepney, A. T. Williams 2974-2975. Desirability of dissemination from sanitary point of view, Murphy 4112-4116. 6144. Dissemination of Aliens—continued: In outlying districts of London encouraged by Jewish bodies, Cohen 15409 ; Emanuel 16601. By Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15560. Difficulty of, ib. 15568. Erection of buildings in Hackney and Stoke Newing- ton, ib. 15571. By Location and Information Bureau of Russo- Jewish Committee, Joseph 16159. Of Jews in outlying districts by starting factories there, Montagu 16999. Requires better means of communication, Barnett 17553. Should be dealt with by voluntary agency, Gordon 17808. Dock Labourers: Necessity to live near work, Walmer 5221-5222. Employment of aliens as, by Lebus, furniture manu- facturer, causes riot at Tottenham, 0'Grady 13994, 13995. Docks: London and St. Katharine's, shipping moved from, to Victoria and Albert Docks and Tilbury Docks, T. E. Williams 18496-7. London and St. Katharine's, lighterage, ib. 18498. London and St. Katharine's, reduction of work at ib. 18579. London and St. Katharine's, workmen brought to work at, from Victoria and Albert Docks or Tilbury Docks, ib. 18581. Dockyards—Management of, at present time, J. Brown 11314. Dover—Settlements of Dutch and Walloon immigrants before, 1575. W. J. C. Moens 23144. Dress—Of alien Jews superior to that of natives, Barnett 17511. Dukhobors—Description of, and treatment of, by Russian authorities, Joseph 21586. Dvinsk—Evans-Gordon 13349. Dyche, J. A.—Article by, in " Contemporary Review," A. White 388. E. East End : English residents in, work outside, Emanuel 16601. Description of, 27 years ago, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17898. Criminal districts have now disappeared, blocks of dwellings occupied by foreigners having taken their place ib. 17898. Criminal population entirely English, ib. 17898. Improvement in character of population since aliens came ib. 17899. Displacement of natives, Jews not causing, ib. 17899. Improved sanitary conditions since 20 years ago, ib. 17899. Cases of overcrowding amongst foreign Jews in, greatly exaggerated, ib. 17899. Overcrowding not worse now than it has been during the last 20 years, ib. 17920, 17937-17943, 17956. Comparison of Manchester to, with regard to over- crowding, favourable to Manchester, ib. 17922. English population equalling foreign population, ib. 17934. Bye-laws against overcrowding not generally enforced in East End owing to inadequacy of numbers of inspectors, Dr. Hamer 17968, 17971. Rents, increase of, reasons for, other than alien immigration, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18140, 18172-91. Dwelling-houses replaced by business premises realising more than previously, ib. 18161,18196. Decline of small shopkeepers* trade due to large shops and stores being opened in the district, and not to alien immigration, Ward 18311. Sunday observance never been strict in, not affected by alien immigrants, ib. 18312. Overcrowding in, due to alien immigration and high rents, Bruce 18329, 18346, 18377. Better class; of natives leaving, cause of loss to tradesmen, T. E. Williams 18501. c 2:20 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: East End—continued. Poverty in, not increased of late years, ib. 18551. Rents, increase of, caused by poverty, ib. 18552-55, ,v Boot and shoe manufacturing in, Weber 19292. ■ • Machinery used in all large boot and shoe factories of, ib. 19322. Home work still done in, but decreasing, ib. 19370| £ 19482- Shoes made in, by alien compared with imported ones, ib. 19316. Cheapest tailoring is done by aliens in, Wright 19711. Costermongers' trade in, increased by aliens, Lyons 19857.. East End Emigration Society—Emigrate natives who are driven out of their homes by foreigners, Greenberg 17211. Eastern Post "—Reference to letter in, signed Achi- ;K Brith, and headed " an advocate of the alien," A. T ^ Williams 1748-1760, 2944-2955. Economic Limit—Determining itself by the laws of supply and demand must alone settle the question of alien immigration, Greenberg 17136. Education of Children : Anxiety of Jewish parents for, Mather 10337 ; Pinto 20884. Alien (Jewish) children attend school regularly, and do well, Barnett 17510, Education in Eastern Europe—Evans-Gordon 13349. Ejectment—In Stepney by foreigner, case of, Fersht 20724. Ely Terrace (Stepney)—Degenerated through advent of immoral alien women, Dickinson 14947. Emigration : Influx of aliens causing emigration of English, Hodge 8112-8117. From England, of aliens, and countries where emi- grated through Jewish Board of Guardians^ Cohen 15328. From England; Board of Trade should have power to obtain and report on nationalities of, Greenberg 17101. From England, greater before the advent of foreigners than now, Lewis 17342. Emigration Commissioners—In Holland, duties of, Eddis 21713 (a). Emigration Law (1869)—Holland, terms of, Eddis 21713' (a). Emigrants (Alien)—Number of, to United States, British North America, Australia, Cape and Natal, and other places outside Europe, Emanuel 16584. Emigration Agents—Frauds of, on Continent, nullify the agreements of the shipping companies, Emanuel 16739. Emigration Cases—Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewish Committee cease to send particulars of, to the United Hebrew Charities in New York, Joseph 15922. Emigration Committee (Jewish) : At Bucharest, action of, Joseph 15893. Only regard assistance from the point of view of an investment, ib. 15896, 15936. Action of, with reference to Jewish colonies in the Argentine, ib. 15900. At 'Hamburg, action of, ib. 15910. Emigration, Port of—Inquiry as to undesirability, Landau 16558. Emigration from Roumania—Causes of, Landau 16295. Emigration from Russia : Causes of, Landau 16295. Preliminaries to, Evans-Goraon 13349. Emigrants from Russia Smuggled, Evans-Gordon 13349. Emigration to England—Austrians warned against, by the Ministry of the Interior, 12653.* Employment, Want of—Caused by aliens at docks; Walmer 5273-5275. England : Not to be regarded as an outlet for aliens, Cohen 15531. A half-way house for the Russian emigrants to America, Greenberg 17092. English Jews : Belong generally to English unions, L. Lyons 14175. Large number in Leeds, Connellan 15036. English Names—Adoption of, by foreigners causes under-estimate of numbers in St. Pancras, Sykes 13292. Eydtkuhnen—Aliens are medically examined at, Somper 19249-19253. Eviction—Bethnal Green, result of, J. Foot 6602 ; Hodge 8166. Excess of Labour—In Leeds, largely due to alien immi- gration, Marston 14410. Exclusion—Of undesirable aliens, possibilities and difficulties in respect to, II. L. Smith 22585. Exclusive Dealing : Refers to small retail provision shops, where the Jew is compelled to deal by requirements of his religion, Lewis 17330. Tendency of, amongst aliens, ib. 17477. Of Jews; causes of, chiefly existing in cases of religious observances, Gordon 17609. Of aliens ; at first, but as they improve their position they buy generally ; cause of this, ib. 17760. Does not exist in East End, except in the case of meat and provisions on account of religious rites, Solomons 20512. Export: Of boots and shoes ; number and value of, H. Li Smith 22521. Causes of decrease in value, ib. 22524. Of cheap clothing and of boots and shoes ; value of, Landau 16296. Expulsion of Aliens—Scheme of, Joseph 15873. Eyre Street Hill Quarter—Frequented. by Italians^ Canney 12661. F. Factories : Result of the Sweating Commission, L. Lyons 14213. Established in Huddersfield, Bairstow 15143. Must be removed out of London to remedy evil of overcrowding, Joseph 15798. Removal of, from London ; inducements suggested, ib. 15804. Owners of, should be placed on same footing as railway companies with respect to displacement by enlargement of premises, ib. 15806. In outlying districts would induce Jews to live 'there, Montagu 17002. Have displaced many residential houses in Stepney, Lewis 17245. The erection of, in outlying districts desirable, ib. 17356. ' Building factory on vacant land in Tottenham; result of, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18249. Lebus', number of hands employed: Flatau's, number of hands employed, ib. 18249. Lebus' and Flatau's, workmen employed in Totten- ham living in Stepney, ib. 18250-18255. In City, removed to Tottenham, ib. 18256. Tendency to build in country ; reasons for, ib. 18259- 18263. At Bethnal Green, Ryland's, Mann and Grossman, Glanfield's, Sir J. Causton's, Allen and Hanbury's, Sanitas Co. ; effects of erection, Ward 18312. Ladies' tailoring, Jewish: Equal number of aliens and natives employed in, Cohen 18970. Closed or Saturdays, ib. 18971. No Christians working on Saturdays or Sundays in ladies' tailoring, ib. 18972. East End Jewish boot and shoe factory closed oa Saturdays and open on Sundays ; no compulsory labour, Weber 19362-19364.INDEX. 21 ^Factories—continued. Charles Baker and Co., number of hands employed by, in tailoring factory, Wright 19655. Female labour in, as compared with female labour in Jewish workshops, Finn 20280. Cabinet-making: Cheap furniture principally made in, Thompson 14647. Large amount of machinery used in, causing sub-division of labour, in Leeds, ib. 14699. Cap-making—Great increase in number of, in East End of London, Solomons 20503. Tailoring: Sweating in, form of, L. Lyons 14088. Large, in Leeds, Marston 14278. Tailors—Carry on bespoke trade, ib. 14316. Leeds : Trousers, waistcoats, and entire juvenile suits [' are made in, ib. 14285. Use sub-division of labour, no Jews being employed, Connellan 15066. ^ How differs from a workshop,!). L. Thomas 5814-5816. For the utilisation of waste products—Established for the first time in Tottenham, about 1891, English and foreigners employed; foreman a Hungarian Jew; ultimately taken over by a British firm, Burlin 20309. Inspection of: Powers of factory inspector, Evans 11635. Visits of inspector to workshops, ib. 11638. Not confined to workshops, but wherever work is done, ib. 11635-9. Beneficent results of prosecutions, aliens assisting, ib. 11650. Occupiers of workshops avoid, ib. 11655, 11861. Difficulties of inspectors in proving evasions of Factory Act, ib. 11657, 11972-8. Complaints of factory inspector to sanitary authority in East End ignored, ib. 11736. Power of factory inspector to proceed against occupiers for employment during overtime now transferred to sanitary authority, ib, 11736. Power of inspector as defined by Factory Act, ib. 12191. General results of, Vaughan 13111. Factory Act : Provisions of, H. Evans 11635. Nuisances due to ignorance of, ib. 11641, 11655. Steps taken to notify provisions of, to aliens, ib. 11645. Abstract of, fallen into desuetude, ib. 11647. Evasions of, ib. 11652, 11655, 11657, 11981. jBeneficial effect of provision of, requiring notice to ! be affixed specifying number of workers that may be employed in each room, ib. 11673. ; Infringement of, in Commercial Street, penalty inflicted for, ib. 11684. i Protected labour on Sunday prohibited by, if em- ployed on Saturday, ib. 11685. ! "Instance of evasion of, by contractors to Govern- ment, ib. 11705. ^ Provisions of, which apply to workplaces only, ib. 11731. | Taking no cognisance of residential quarters, ib. \ 11731, 12173. Failure of new Act to prevent overcrowding during overtime, ib. 11742. No steps taken to acquaint aliens with provisions ? of, ib. 11742. 'Systematic evaders of, most willing to assist the prosecution of others, ib. 11756. Reasons for the general endeavour to defeat the law, ib. 11852. ! 'Operative benefits as much as employer by the evasion, ib. 11860. Definition of a domestic workshop under, ib. 11947. § Object of, neutralised by conditions under which aliens work, ib. 11980. Does not prohibit male labour on Sundays, Vaughan 13156. Ignored by aliens in the shoe trade, T. V Grady, ; 13529. Factory Act—continued. Power given by, to inspect home workshops, not exercised by Borough Council, Stepney, T. E. Williams 18537. Women's hours in ladies' tailoring regulated by, Cohen 18968, 19002. Workshops should be brought under, Solomons 20547. Should be extended to all classes of trade, Policoff 21083. Factory and Workshop—Combination of, produces cheapness in tailoring trade, Marston 14434. Factory and Workshops Act—Further legislation required, to further factories as opposed to workshops, Lewis 17380. Factory Inspector—Want of careful supervision by, causes sweating in tailoring trade, L. Lyons 14095. Factory System : Not developed in the ladies' costume and mantle trade; disorganisation resulting, Finn 20271. Extension of, by the employment of females, would have disastrous effects on the tailoring trade, L. Lyons 14199. Fair Wage Clause—Not so satisfactory as trade union clause, Whatley 13777. Faith, Sister—Her rescue work, Walters 13101. Families, Size of—Of aliens so large as to caiise over crowding, Dickinson 14846. Federation of Synagogues: Cause of: In East End of London, represents 24,000, Montagu 16771. Meet to discuss dispersion, in May, 1902, with dele- gates of provincial congregations, and form the Jewish Congregational Union, ib. 16775. Subscribed to by Jewish aliens, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17900. Feinknopf—Case of, in American Courts, relating to admission without means, H. L. Smith 255-256. Female Labour : In factories, its effect upon the out-working system, wages and hours in the tailoring trade, L. Lyons 14111. Reduces the quality of workmanship, L. Lyons 14209. Almost exclusively used in Leeds factories, Marston 14280 ; Connellan 15067. Competes with Jewish, Finn 20271. In ready-made clothing trade, ib. 20280. In Jewish workshops favourably compared with female labour in English factories, ib. 20280. In Jewish workshops, in Leeds, Freedman 20423. Largely employed in the cap-making trade, Solomons 20508. English tailors encourage English girls to come mto the tailoring trade, Policoff 21021. Largely employed in cigarette trade, Kramrisch 21720. Finsbury : Population of, Newman 12433. Number of inhabited houses, ib. 12435. Area of, ib. 12436. Foreign population, ib. 12437; in proportion to English, Emanuel 16601. Foreigners other than Italians in, Newman 12452. ^ Those who work, but do not reside in, are English, ib. 12454. Very few Russians and Poles in, ib. 12456. Area and sanitary conditions of Italian quarter, ib. 12461. Council work under bye-laws in, ib. 12467. Change in nature of houses in, ib. 12473. Character of occupation of houses in Italian quarter, ib. 12478. Rents in Italian quarter, method of paying same, ib. 12500. Great overcrowding hi the season in Italian quarters, ib. 12503. Many Jewesses employed in clothing trade, ib. 12539. Commercial premises have displaced residential houses in, ib. 12504.22 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Finsbtjry—continued. Comparative overcrowding in, with Stepney, ih 12566. Table giving country of birth of foreigners in, Harper 13961. Flatau and Lyons (Tottenham), Firm of Messrs. : Reference to, Mr. A. 3521-3523 ; Mr. B. 3723. Only firm which employs alien labour to any extent in an outlying district of London, Lewis 17486. Flemings : Immigration of, A, White 330. Advantages accruing from, ib. 402. Flower and Dean Street : Previous character of, very bad, Joseph 16251 ; Montagu 16858. Improved character of, Solomons 20512. Food : Foreign Jews, particularity about; cleverness in preparing fish and cooking all kinds of, Mrs. L. A. ^ Levy 17900. Superior quality of, bought by Jews, Capt. Denniss 18273. ; Jews, owing to their religion, mainly depend on their own shops for, Ward 18311. t Free meals ; dinners for very poor Jewish children ; breakfasts for very poor Christian children, given at Betts Street School, Nugent 18770. Of Jews, in Manchester, Niven 21764. Food and Drugs (Amendment) Act—Increased penalties for adulteration imposed by, D. L. Thomas 7186. Foreign Countries—Alien population in, H. L. Smith 22528. Foreign Population : In United Kingdom, according to the Censuses of 1871, 1881, 1891. * Very small, compared with total population, Mon- tagu 16975. Comparison of foreign population in United Kingdom with Germany, Austria, France, and United States, 16976. Foreigners (Jews)—Are not clickers in the boot and shoe trade, Coleman 20072. Foreign Ship—Only power to deal with, in insanitary condition, under Public Health Act, as a nuisance, H. L. Smith 22540. Four-per-Cent. Industrial Dwellings (Stepney)— Are now filled with tenants who improve the neighbour- hood, Montagu 16878. France : Aliens in, chiefly Italians, Montagu 16965. Proportion of foreign to native population, ib. 16976.: Customary for Frenchmen to carry papers identi- fying them, E. B. Henry 23555. Offences for which Frenchmen can be expelled from France, ib. 23600. Frenchmen so expelled come to England, ib. 23602. Englishmen convicted of crime in France are sent back to their own country, ib. 23603. French—Occupations of, in Borough of Holborn, Jones 21994. French and Germans—Form mostly the alien population in St. Pancras, Prag 17824. French Minister of the Interior—Conducts crimi- nal, through an officer, to England, Vincent 22466. " Front Lands and Back Lands " : Meaning of term, in Glasgow, Pinto 20983. Number of houses on front lands and on back lands in Glasgow, of one apartment, ib. 20987. Fulham—Alien population has not increased, Harper 13932. G. G alicia—Jewish poor, overcrowding among, T. Herd 6337. Gambling : Extensive in West Central London, Fersht 20693. In Manchester. The lower-class Jews are very fond of, Gilmour 21253, 21373. Fondness of alien Jews for, Silver 2674. Gambling introduced by aliens in Whitechapely B. Hyder 7365. Gambling dens, aliens keeping, S. White 7569, 7649 j Mulvaney 8304-8313. Stepney, gambling houses, low-class foreigners frequenting, Mulvaney 8305. Gambling increasing in Stepney, ib. 8368; Barnett 17556. Stepney, complaints in 1901 concerning gambling houses, Mulvaney 8370. Persons charged and summoned, ib. 8372. Warrant to raid East End gambling house, difficulty in obtaining, ib. 8373. Punters not charged, ib. 8376. Raids in Coke Street, Christian Street, Stepney, and Underwood Street, Mile End New Town, number of persons arrested, ib. 8381-8383. Eldon Street gambling dens keeping their own auctioneer, J. Pam 9363. Reference to, J. Brown 11172. Not peculiar to aliens who come from countries where gambling is not a crime, Emanuel 16632. Games : Alien children take to athletic games, Dsnniss 18274, 18292. Alien children learn chess and draughts, ib. 18293. Football, alien children take to, Nugent 18833-35. Germans : Preponderate in St. Pancras, Harper 13960, and Table 13961. Large number of, formerly in St. George-m-the East, German sugar bakers, Lewis 17263. Area of residence in St. Pancras, Prag 17817. In St. Pancras, of a low class, but well dressed, and possessed of means, ib. 17818. Their chemical knowledge is beneficial to, and has greater scope in, England, Burlin 20348. Not hampered by trades unions, ib. 20351. In Scotland, Pinto 20862. Occupations of, in Borough of Holborn, Jones 21993. German Waiters : Habits and characteristics of, Syhes 13338. Increase foreign population in England largely,. Montagu 16977. Germany: Proportion of foreign to native population, Montagu 16976. Ladies' tailoring for English market before 1877 principally done in ; number of persons employed, Cohen 18968. Importations from, of lasting for boot and shoe trade,, checked since aliens have taken up cheap produc- tion, Weber 19340. Shoes imported from, ib. 19464. Ghetto—Shops in, demolished to make room for ware- houses, W. Solomon 18195. Glasgow : Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish- Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 inclusive, Emanuel 16605. Overcrowding in, Prag 17847 ; Pinto 20871. Question of alien immigration in, has not assumed- serious dimensions, Pinto 20858. Population of, general; population of, Jewish, ib,. 20859. Foreign population of, ib. 20861. Rents not affected by foreign Jews in ; key money does not obtain in, ib. 20875. Sanitary conditions of Jewish houses are satisfactory, . ib. 20876. Number of Jewish butchers in, according to the statistics of the Board of Schechita, ib. 20894. Superintendent of police gives good report of Jews- in Glasgow, ib. 20895. Principal trades created or developed by Jews in,- ib. 20896.INDEX. 28 "Glasgow—continued. Alien Jews have not displaced labour in, ib. 20896. The trade union (tailors) in, is very strong, ib. 20944. Cigarette industry is well organised, ib. 20945. Action of sanitary authorities with reference to over- crowding in, ib. 20973. -Glastonbury—Settlement in 1567 of Walloon and French immigrants, W. J. C. Moens 23126. Gordon—Origin of name, Gordon 17597. Ge-antjlar Ophthalmia—Trachoma is a symptom of (see Trachoma), Lang 20584. •CrRAVESEND : Customs Officer boards Continental ships bringing aliens at, Hawkey 1374. Notice of vessels arriving carrying aliens sent to Superintendent of Poor Jews' Shelter, Samper 19055. Gray's Inn Lane—Number of inhabitants to the acre, Prog 17839. Great Yarmouth—Settlement in 1568 of Dutch immi- grants, W. J. C. Moens 23142. ^Greeners : Illustration of manner in which they cross the Russian frontier and travel to England, Mr. A. 3370- 3415. And of their experiences on arrival here, Mr. A* 3416-3563 ; Mr. B. 3575-3613. Their previous occupations, Onion 2576 ; J. Lyons 3256-3328, 3342 ; Mr. B. 3600. They can now learn boot finishing or lasting in a week, Mr. B. 3602, 3605. Long hours worked by, J. Lyons 3264. Their earnings, ib. 3265. Evil effect upon their health of long hours, bad air, and poor food, ib. 3253, 3267. As skilled workmen they never equal the standard of the English, but so soon as they have some knowledge of the trade they become employers, ib. 3279. Work long hours for low figures to learn the boot trade, Amstell 12209. "Small wages of, often lead to wages cases, which defendant generally loses, Haden Corser 12884. 'No unskilled alien in the Soho district, Hayer 12993. Wages at first small, but they soon improve their posi- tion, Vaughan 13145; Joseph 16177. Work long hours, Vaughan 13149. >n shoe trade, become skilled men when they earn 28s. a week, Amstell 13451. Employment of, in shoe trade to lower prices, T. O'Grady 13521. Inexperience of, in boot and shoe trade at first, ib. 13642. Immigration of, more or less organised, Whatley 13833. Strongly objected to by the Furnishing Trades Union, J. O"Grady 14014. iEncouraged to come to England by methods of subdivision adopted in tailoring trade, Marston 14355. Methods of attracting to country, ib. 14362. Conditions of work, wages and hours of, in Leeds, Thompson 14651. Effect of, in Cabinet trade in Leeds, ib. 14662, 14681. -Obtain employment through Jewish Rabbi, in Leeds, ib. 14700. .After a time improve their position, in Leeds, Con- ndlan 15075. ; Are not provided by Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, Landau 16285. "Not dealt with by Jewish Dispersion Committee, Montagu 16778. jhould not be excluded, as likely to benefit the State and themselves, ib. 17051. Definition of word as applied to aliens, Mrs; L. A. Levy 17945; Abrahams 18899, 18913. \To sweating, ib. 18900. tYages of, ib. 18906. ?Few left in boot and shoe trade, Weber 19378. Greeners—continued. In boot and shoe trade are paid small sum to enable them to live whilst they learn the work, ib. 19562. In tailoring get small wages whilst learning; rapidly improve; wages per day, Wright 19664, 19730. In boot and shoe trade sweated only at first, Cohen 20023. How differ from apprentices, ib. 20066. In Leeds : how dealt with by the Trades' Unions, Freedman 20414. Wages of, ib. 22042. Grimsby : Report on, Eddis 21713. Destitute aliens returned to, by Hamburg authorities, ib. 21713. Temporary shelter at, for aliens arriving, ib. 21713. Ports from which boats arrive at, ib. 21713. Docks, and steamers owned by the Great Central Railway Company, ib. 21713. Gymnastics—Jewish boys become very keen in, Stewart Headlam 20245. H. Hackney—Erection of buildings in, for purposes of dissemination, Cohen 15571. Haden Corser—Statement of, giving particulars of the charges made in Worship Street Court, and comparing the years 1897 and 1902, 16314* Hale-pass—Used in the frontier villages of Russia to enable holders to cross: a translated copy of, Evans- Gordon 20568. Hamburg: Rejections at, by Jewish Committees, Joseph 15909. Depot of, ib. 15909. Alien immigrants are compelled to have bath at, before embarking, Landau 16404. Russian and Jewish travellers must deposit a sum of money at the depot, Somper 19258. Austrian and Galician passengers do not go through the depot but are medically examined before embarking, ib. 19258-19260. Complaint in, that aliens repatriated from Man- chester and Hull are not provided with funds to proceed, Isaacs 20843. Number of immigrants from, ultimate destination of, H. L. Smith 22331. Hamburg Emigration Committee—Action of, to meet the American standard, Joseph 15907. Hamburg Filter, Evans-Gordon 13349. Hamburg Regulations—Hampering effects of, rendering evasion necessary, Eddis 21713. Hamburg Steamers : Improvement in regulations of alien traffic on, Hawkey 1562. Intention of the owner to increase accommodation in view of a large increase in 1903 of Russian and Austrian immigrants, 16314*. Hamer, Dr. : His report on excessive overcrowding in Cambcrwell, Joseph 16140. Report of, on overcrowding in East London, ib. 1C258. Hammersmith—Alien population has not increased, Harper 13932. Hampstead—Proportion of foreigners in, Emanuel 16601. " Hashulamith " : Is a newspaper printed in the Hebrew character, published in London, A. White 370. Reference to an advertisement in, for coat basters, ib. 362-370. Account in, of experiences of six Russian immigrants with an emigration agent named Meczyk. Hawkey 1451-1455. Hayes Fisher—Deputation to, of London Clothiers' Cutters' Trade Union respecting wages, Whatley 13731.24 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Index. Health : • Of Jewish alien population, better than that of th^e average of the class in East End, Barnett 17515.JI H Of many aliens on arrival in East End far frf^ satisfactory. Harris 21677. • Hebrew: Jewish children attend the Chedarim for instruction in, Nugent 18847. Used in some synagogues, Montagu 16840. Hirsch, Baron de : Extract from report made to, by Mr. Arnold White on subject of Jews in Russia, A. White 348. Colonies established by, in Argentina, ib. 330, 349. " Schnorrers," number increased by benefactions of, T. Herzl 6374. Jewish poor sent to Argentina and Palestine by benefactions of, ib. 6370. Hirscheeld, Mr.—Passage broken in Rotterdam^ His action with respect to aliens proceeding to London and English ports, Eddis 21713. Hobson, John A.—Views of, on characteristics of Jews in " Problems of Poverty," Greenberg 17107. Holborn : Many foreign jewellers and watchmakers in, Harper 13911. Alien population of, Birch 14804. ' Proportion of foreigners in, Emanuel 16601. Table giving country of birth of foreigners in, Harper \ 13961. Holborn, Borough of : %eville Street; alien immigration not affecting house property, increased value in twenty years; iJewis Solomon 18161. Population o|, Jones 21980. Area ofjv ib, 21081. Alien population of, ib. 21983. Number of registered common lodging-houses in, ib. 21985. Number of tenement lodging-houses registered in, ib. 21987. • Analysis and distribution of alien population in, ib. 21991. Occupations of alien population in, ib. 21992. Occupations of Germans in, ib. 21993. Occupations of French in, ib. 21994. Occupations of Americans in, ib. 21996. Occupations of Swiss in, ib. 21996. Occupations of Austrians in, ib. 21996. Occupations of Russians in, ib. 21997. Native tradesmen benefit by alien immigration in, ib. 22009. Aliens in, do not assimilate with natives, ib. 22010. Allegations against Council of, by the relieving officer, Mr. Birch, contradicted and disproved, ib. 22020. (See also Birch, page 516,,end of evidence.) ' Aliens in, pay higher rents than natives, ib. 22027. Clerk, of the Council of, has free hand in prosecuting for4 overcrowding, ib. 22031. Holborn Union —Birch 14784. Holborn and Finsbury : Table Ia, giving total population, Harper 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13890. Table Ib giving number of persons born in foriegn countries in, ib. 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13901. Table Id, giving percentage of British and foreign- !' born population to total population, ib. 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13923. Table ie, showing the net movement of the whole population, ib. 13873. ' Evidence thereon, ib. 13926. Table 3a, dealing with overcrowding in, ib. 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13941. Table 10, giving number of British subjects in, ib. 13873. Table 3c, dealing with overcrowding in the enumera- tion districts,. in each Registration sub-district o Lib. 13873. Causes of decrease in population, ib. 13892. Holborn and Finsbxjiiy—continued. Population of, decrease in proportion of native born, and increase in proportion of alien born, ib. 13925. Overcrowding in, decreased since 1891, ib. 13941. Italians preponderating, ib. 13960 ; and table, 13961- Holborn and Strand Improvements, Harper 13949. Holland—Fresh-water fish imported from, and sold at Billingsgate Market, Lyons 19889. Home Work r Abolition of, retarded by continuance of alien immi- gfeition, A. White 399. By taking work home, and working, living and sleeping all in one room, alien immigrants are- enabled to cut down their expenses, Onion 2484— 2496. The aliens' workshops or factories are practically in their bedrooms, J. Lyons 3251. In 1890 home work in the boot and shoe trade was abolished, and for two years better conditions- prevailed ; then the old system was reverted to, Mr. B. 3623-3627, 3721-3731; Mr. G. 3781-3782.- Subject to inspection, Evans 11638. Sweater's existence due to, ib. 11690. Becoming universal owing to sub-division of labour, ib. 11731. Is increasing in shirt trades and juvenile clothing trades, ib. 11805. Aliens mostly employed in, ib. 11897. Less skilled work than that done in workshops, ib. 11898. No home work that does not come under Factory Act, ib. 11954. More common among natives than foreigners,. Emanuel 16625. Power to inspect home workshops given by Factory Act not exercised by Borough Council, Williams- 18537. Still done in boot and sjioe trade in East End, Weber 19370-19374 ; Finn 20300. In Manchester, Gilmour 21382. Cabinet-making—Conditions of, in Leeds, Thompson 14673. Tailors : Is cause of sweating in Leeds, Marston 14357. Methods of disposing of work, ib. 14359. Homel—Oppressive conditions under which Jews live- in, A. White 336, 347, 348. Hops—Introduced into England by aliens, W. J. C. ' Moens 23179. Hours oe Labour : Statement showing the number of workpeople affected by changes in, from 1893-1900 inclusive,„ in all trades, Emanuel 16619. Statement showing the number of workpeople- affected by changes in, from 1893-1900 inclusive,, in the clothing trade, ib. 16619. Amongst foreign workmen are not permanent, but depend upon the state of trade, Finn 20299. In the ready-made clothing trade in Leeds, Freedman 20367. Demanded by the East London Bakers' Union,, Both 21908. House Accommodation—In Stepney, difficulty of obtaining, not much increasing, Cohen 15731. House Property : Purchase of, by aliens, Waimer 5194, 5198-5208. Stepney, Albert Square, Jewish Syndicate purchasing,, G. H. Garrett 6507. Jewish house-dealers buying properties, raising rents, then selling to others, who again raise rents,. J. Foot 6579, 6630, 6657. Jewish immigrants become speculators in house property, J. Foot 6642; Hodge 8124. Alien owners of houses in Bethnal Green responsible for their insanitary condition, Hodge 8033. Workshop, Jew purchasing, and turning tenant out in order to put in his friend at treble rent, Turner 8525.INDEX. 25 House Property—continued. Key Street, Mile End, tenant had option of moving by selling key to alien or paying increased rent, | J. W. Johnson 8558. Brunswick Street, Hackney Road, foreign landlord buying property and raising rents, Coles 9600, Spitalfields, Jews at sales buy nearly all property, Rev. W. H. Dames 9850 ; Rev. A. E. Ballon 10155. In East End, investment in, by Jewish landlords, who displace English for alien tenants, Joseph 16106. Destruction of, in Stepney, not compensated for by block dwellings, ib. 16133. In Stepney, if not occupied by aliens, would have been converted into warehouses, ib. 16151. Some, in Manchester, falling into alien hands, Gilmour 21391. Houses—In Liverpool occupied by Jews, character of, Hope 21405. Houses Let in Lodgings : Bye-laws regulating, Dr. Harrier 17970. Increased rents in St. George's caused by landlords letting houses out room by room, Williams 18462. , See Bye-laws. Housing Act of 1891—Has tended to raise value of slum dwellings, Joseph 15834, 15836. Housing of the Working Classes Act : Provides that not more than a certain number of houses can be pulled down without the consent of a Justice of the Peace, Murphy 5074. It has been found perfectly practicable to carry out the Act, ib. 5076-5078. Persons displaced under, have dispersed, ib. 5080. Amending of Part I. desirable, J. Foot 6942. Local authorities, extension of powers outside own district to purchase land for erection of houses desirable, ib. 6950. Provisions respecting clearance of areas and rehousing of people displaced, E. Harper 11624. Has, diminished overcrowding, ib. 13942. Administration of, in Leeds, Marston 14416. Machinery in the clearance and housing scheme of, is cumbersome, Joseph 15820. Simplifying clauses suggested, Joseph 15820. Administration of, in East End, Dr. Harrier 17968. Housing Operations—Summary of, in East End, Gordon 17723. Housing Question, Improvement Schemes : Special industries necessitate residence within certain area, J. Foot 6646, 6797, 6869. " Driving out" policy presses equally on English and alien poor, J. Foot 6649. Boundary Street scheme, number of persons displaced by, ib. 6716. Displaced persons, provision made for, under improve- ment schemes authorised by Act of Parliament, ib. 6722. Single scheme dealing with provision of additional house accommodation the only feasible remedy for overcrowding in East End, Hodge 8094, 8163. Acres of two-storeyed houses in East End, if com- pulsorily bought up and replaced by higher build- ings, would greatly simplify the housing difficulty, Hodge 8101-8107. Boundary Street scheme, persons displaced by, for whom no houses were provided, Rev. H. V. Ech 10131. Bouudary Street buildings, class of person inhabiting, ib. 10136. Boundary Street area,, means taken to assist people turned out in finding new homes, E. Harper 11605. Of Stepney, not really caused by alien immigration, shown by a comparison of populations of Stepney and Islington, Gordon 17650. But alien immigration an important factor of, ib. 17740. Bye-laws relating to houses let in lodgings, improve- ment in cleanliness due to enforcement of, Dr. Hamer 17968. Common lodging-houses and houses let in lodgings or tenement houses, distinction between, ib. 17970. £144, Housing Question, Improvement Schemes—cont. Common lodging-houses in Kensington, sanitary conditions of, compare favourablv with tene- ment houses, ib. 18002. Huguenots and Flemings—Beneficial effect of immigra- tion of. Alien Jewish immigrants not in any sense to be compared with them, A. White 402. Huddersfield—Wholesale clothing trade in, Bairstow 15132. Hull : Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 inclusive, Emanuel 16605. Report on visit to, Eddis 21713. Action of authorities in respect to transmigrants, ib. 21713. Hungary—Shoes imported from, Weber 19464. I. Ice Cream Industry—New regulations concerning, New- man 12485. Illicit Spirits and Stills : Raiding in Whitechapel, S. White 7586. Liquor made in, ib. 7587. Market for, ib. 7589. Cases relating to, ib. 7610-7626. Hawking illicit spirits and working stills, foreigner* introducing into Stepney, Mulvaney 8285. ^ ^ Foreigners charged with, 1892-1901, ib. 8285. * . Detecting, mode of, ib. 8519-8524. Aliens hawking, Francis 8851. Excise Management Act, illicit manufacture ofT powers under Act concerning, Highmore 9859. Illicit distilling, cases discovered, ib, 9864-9884. All cases in five years to 1902 were of foreigners, iby 9877. Machinery for discovery of illicit stills, ib. 9885,< Women distribute the illicit spirits, ib. 9888. Illicit stills described, ib. 9891-9896. Joseph Josephs, arrest and imprisonment of, for illicit distilling, ib. 9897. Jacob Numhauser arrested and imprisoned twice in one year for illicit distilling, ib. 9916. Illicit spirit, cost of production and selling price, ib. 9918. Illicit spirit made at one place and distributed from another, ib. 9925. Illicit spirit, mode of distributing, ib. 9925. Hawking spirits, amount of penalty for, ib. 9936. Being in possession of illicit spirits, penalty for, ib 9943. Warning issued to incoming aliens concerning illicit distilling, text of, ib. 9948. Reference to, J. Brown 11170. Cause of feeling against Jews, L. Lyons 14150. The keeping of, not a crime, but an offence against the revenue laws, Emanuel 16632. Illiteracy—Among Hebrews in the United States, Evans-Gordon 16314. Ill-feeling shown towards, by Native Population : Evidence as to existence of ill-feeling, A. White 980; A. T. Williams 1722-1724, 1760; Barrett 2184- 2186, 2189-2191, 2251-2256, 2299-2302; Brown 2423-2425, 2442-2444; Silver 2612-2617, 2819; 7j. Solomons 3053; Belcher 4293-4294; Waimer 5212 5224, 5235 ; Dix 5295, 5355 ; Rygate 5861 ; Pam 9328; Haden Corser 12928. Causes to which due : Economic ; English trait of dislike to foreigners. competition, A. White 980. Overbearing manner of foreign Jewish land- .'7 lords ; objectionable habits of foreign Jews A. T. Williams 1722-1724. Displacement of native population, Barrett 2190-2191 ; Broim 2444-6; Silver 2612 2655. Desecration of English Sunday, Brown 2423- 2425 ; Belcher 4284c Unfair tactics of alien Jews in acquisition of houses, Silver 2617, Disgust at conditions under which foreigners in East London live, ih $627* D Index.26 ROYAL COMMISSION" ON ALIEN1 IMMIGRATION: Ill-Feeling shown towards, by Native Population —continued. Causes to which due—continued. Unfair competition, ib. 2628. Resentment of native at having to educate ; - foreign children, ib. 2655-2657. v, Aloofness of the aliens ; their unwillingness to i conform to English habits and customs, or to respect English sanitary law, ib. 2675. Their anti-English feeling ; their arrogance and contempt towards English people, ib. 2694. Does not exist against Italians, Finsbury, Newman 12487- Consequent upon displacement, Haden Corser 12899. Against aliens increasing, also of alien against alien, L. Lyons 14066. Causes of, and probable result of, ib. 14148, 14154. Strong in mining districts, Lumsden 14527. Against Jews very slight in East End, Montagu 16971. Chiefly caused by high rents and displacement of population; other causes of, Lewis 17414. Against Jew as Jew, ib. 17417. Against aliens caused by Sunday work in Man- chester, Gilmour 21283. In Manchester against aliens, ib. 21379. No evidence of, in Liverpool? between aliens and natives, Hope 21450. Is not apparent in East End, Harris 21664. Immigration Commissioners' Report (United States) —Gives number of cases the shipping companies become liable for, Cohen 15680. Immigration from Russia, Jewish Opinion on, Evans - Gordon 13349. Immigration Home — For detention during inquiry advisable, Vincent 22407. Immigration in 1902—From Russia and Poland increased by apprehension of results of Royal Commission, Landau 16563. Immigration of Aliens—Resolution against, passed by the Leeds Trades and Labour Council, Connellan 14998. Immorality : Organisation exists for exporting and importing women to all countries, Coote 12575. Its character and surroundings, ib. 12581. Suggestions for checking, ib. 12597, 12627. In the East End increasing amongst aliens, Dickinson 14981. Is caused by overcrowding, Montagu 17047. Steps taken to check, by local authorities in West Central London, Fersht 20693. Powers of police should be increased, ib. 20693. Raiding of disorderly houses in St. Ann's, Soho, ib. 20726? Jncendiarism—Principal insurance companies alleged to have special regulations with regard to issuing policies to East End Russian Jews, A. White 399-402; A. T. Williams 2934-2943, 2977-2982. Indoor Workshop Agreement. See Boot and Shoe Trade. Industrial Commission (America), 1901—Report of. in respect to the deterrent effect of law of 1891 and 1893, H. L. Smith. 22267. Industrial Committee of Jewish Board of Guar- dians—Apprentices boys and girls to trades ; number of, during 1901, Cohen 15396. Industrial Premises—Are being erected upon areas, recently residential, in Stepney, Gordon 17681. Industries—Introduced into England from abroad, now employing English hands, Burlin 20309-20338.: Infectious Diseases : Method of procedure respecting sufferers from, H. Williams 6049-6057. Failure of captains to report, reason for, ib. 6089. Small-pox cases, discovering, on " Easington" ss., ib. 6092. On 44 Georg " s&r* ib. 6096. Infectious Diseases—continued. Case on " Oratava " arriving at Southampton, passen- gers allowed to land notwithstanding, ib. 7093- 7095. Jews very immune from, Landwu 16275; Lewis 17262, 17266. Inhabited Houses : Increase of, not commensurate with increase of population in London, Joseph 15793. Number of persons per inhabited house constantly increasing since 1841 in Stepney, Gordon 17668. Number of, in Mile End Old Town increased up to 1881, remained stationary for 10 years, then com- menced to decrease, ib. 17677. Increased in Stepney registration district up to 1881, and decreased subsequently, ib. 17679. Number of, in Whitechapel, stationary between 1841 and 1851, has decreased since 1851, ib. 17679. Inspections : Of Italian quarters at night, and results of, Newman 12506. Of police desirable, to detect overcrowding, Harris 21633. Inspector of Sanitary Committee of Jewish Board of Guardians—Number of visits of, paid to houses occupied by the Jewish poor, Cohen 15402. Inspectors: Difficulties of proving illegal employment of protected persons, Vaughan 13136. Appointment of a practical tailor to supervise con- tract work advisable, L. Lyons 14250. Female—In Liverpool; their duties, Hope 21418. Inspectors of Nuisances : London County Council pays half the salary of each inspector, the local authority the other half, Jj. Lithiby 23521. Action of, in regard to visiting, D. L. Thomas 5489„« Two special inspectors appointed in Stepney to enforce bye-laws, ib. 5604, 5708. Thirty additional would be required if all houses let in lodgings were registered in Stepney, ib: 5705-5715, 5719. Increased number of, overcrowding necessitating, B. B. Rygabe 5955, 5973. Salary of, ib. 5975. Entry to registered lodging-houses, absolute power of necessary, J. Foot 6932. St. George-in-the-East, visits paid in night, result of, W. Bradford 9626-9639. Duties under Public Health Act, 1891, F. Mead 10554. Institution for the Relief of the Indigent Blind (Jews)—Lang 20573. Insurance, Fire : Refusal of companies to insure foreign Jews, Dix 5370-5377. From prejudice, Prag 17872. Insurance, High Rates : Increase in, not due to Jews, in Cripplegate, Prag 17869. Cause of, ib. 17873. Interpreter : Always needed by Yiddish criminals, McConnell 12741. Increasing need of, in police courts, Haden Corser 12828. Action of magistrates with regard to, through in- creased need of one, ib. 12831. In police court; his payment, etc., ib. 12832, 12904. Unless a permanent official cannot, however honest, be absolutely relied upon, ib. 12905. Easily obtainable by police of the C Division, Hayer 13049. At Eastern Ports, need of, Eddis 21713. Islington : Method of procedure under Public Health Act to abate nuisances, D, L, Thomas 5688-5692. Small population of, as compared with that of Stepney in 1801 ; equalised in 1881 ; and exceed- ing in 1901, Gordon 17643.INDEX. 27 Israel, Isaac—Of 8, Broomhead Street, prosecuted for nuisances, D, L. Thomas 5533-5538. Italian Clubs : Are diminishing in Soho district, Hayer 12984. Number of, in the district of the C Division of the police, ib. 12987. Italians : Italians in Saffron Hill district blend with native population, A. White 332. Dangerous character of a certain colony of, in London, A. T. Williams 1735-1742. Death rate amongst Italians in Saffron Hill district; lower than death rate amongst English population , of same district, Murphy 5065. Principally in Finsbury, Newman 12439. Comparative Italian population in Finsbury from 1861-1903, ib. 12440-12451. Their migratory disposition, Newman 12481. j Occupations of, Newman 12482, 12543: Canney 12664. Neapolitan and South Italians, chiefly resident in the I Italian quarter, Newman 12535. ; Habits of improving, Newman 12536. s Extending out of the Saffron Hill area, Canney 12657. : Percentage of criminals very small, ib. 12665. Immorality of, ib, 12667. Pauperism of, very small, ib. 12670. Do not compete with natives, ib. 12671. No sweating amongst, ib. 12675. Health of, and habits of, ib. 12678. Skilled workmen amongst, ib. 12683, 12687. Brawl amongst each other, but not with natives, ib. 12696. Offences of, McGonnell 12736. Form, the largest number of foreigners in Soho and its vicinity, Hayer 12978. Violent nature of crimes of, in Soho, ib. 12981. Large number of ice-cream vendors in St. Pancras, Sylces 13309. Preponderate in Westminster, Holborn and Finsbury, Harper 13960 and Table, 13961. In Holborn, their occupation and conditions of living, Birch 14805. Have introduced asphalt industry, ib. 14808. Pauperism increasing amongst, in Holborn district, ib. 14813. In France, number of, Montagu 16965. Have continuation school in St. Peter's, Hatton Garden, Stewart Headlam 20240. Number of, in Scotland, Pinto 20862. Are ice-cream vendors, ib. 20866. .in Liverpool, their occupations ; live in the most disorderly district of Liverpool, Hope 21462. In Manchester, number and occupations of, Niven 21803# Itinerary—Major Evans-Gordon dealing with : Jews in Russia ; persecution in Eastern Europe; special laws affecting Jews ; uncertainty of the law ; the May laws; Jews as merchants and traders; military service ; education ; Jewish labour ; St. Petersburg ; Dvinsk ; Riga; Libau ; Vilna ; Kovno ; Pinsk ; country districts; the Jews in Poland; Warsaw; Lodz ; the Jews in Galicia; the Jews in Roumania ; methods of emigration in Roumania ; effect of American restrictions ; the Hamburg filter ; Jewish emigration methods; preliminaries to emigration; smuggled emigrants; foreign Jewish opinion on emigration; consular certificates, Evans-Gordon 13349. h Jewellers and Watchmakers—Foreign, chiefly in Holborn district, Harper 13911. " Jew in London," The—Reference to book published under this title by Mr. H. S. Lewis, A. White 388-389*, 1061-1069 ; Lewis 17226. Jewish Alien Paupers.—Digest of reports from the London and Provincial Jewish Boards of Guardians and other bodies, Emanuel 16605. Jewish Athletic Association—Makes a grant for alien children to Betts Street School, Nugent 18769. 6144. Jewish Board of Deputies : Its legal business and powers, Emanuel 16568. Represents Jews of the United Kingdom, ib. 16571. Action of, to secure accuracy in census return of alien Jews, ib. 16597. Jewish Board of Guardians: Provide for their own poor, Brown 11018. By working with Local Board could check over- crowding, Brown 11255. Relief by, perpetuates low wages and poverty amongst the aliens, AmsteLl 12215. Paid premiums for apprentices, Vaughan 13164, 13237. Founded in 1859, Cohen 15213. Supported by Jewish community, ib. 15215. Its objects, ib. 15250. Funds of, amount, object, and resources of, ib. 15216-15229, 15535. Number of cases relieved by, in 1902, ib. 15237. Number of individuals, ib. 15241. Number of aliens relieved in 1902, their nationalities, Cohen, 15243. Has department for apprenticing boys and girls, ib. 15246. Has fulfilled the objects for which it was founded, ib. 15251. Number of new cases relieved conjointly with the Russo-Jewish Committee, of those (a) who have arrived during the year; (b) of those resident less than seven years ; (c) and of those resident over seven years, from 1895 to 1902, and number of Russians relieved, ib. 15252-15276. Began to co-operate with Russo-Jewish Committee in 1891, ib. 15254. Procedure of, ib. 15255. Demands six months' residence before relief is given, ib. 15257. This practice does not throw aliens on the Poor" Law, ib. 15379. Return shows that most of the applicants are possessed, of means on arrival, ib. 15277, 15302. Increase of, relief to new arrivals in 1900, due to severity of measures in Roumania and famine in . Bessarabia, and bad harvests in Russia, ib. 15278. Action of, checking immigration from Roumania, ib. 15293. Substantial assistance granted differing from that of the Poor Law, ib. 15305. Its work of emigration in co-operation with the United Hebrew Charities in New York, ib. 15318. Its work of repatriation; methods adopted; its co-operation with Mr. Samson, Hon. Agent in • Hamburg, ib. 15319-15324. Number repatriated from 1895 to 1902, ib. 15325. Countries to which aliens emigrated by, ib. 15328. Repatriate independently of their six months^ residence rule, ib. 15332. ^ases of foreigners added to the register of the Board during each of the years, from 1895 to 1901, ib. 15333. Very few applicants for relief ask for it a second time, ib. 15336. Cases of foreigners rejected and relieved after in- vestigation, ib. 15341. Annual average of new cases of native Jews is under a hundred, ib. 15352. Object to prevent Jews from going to the workhouse, ib. 15355. Statistics show that alien immigration has not in- creased general pauperism, ib. 15361. Estimate of three persons to one case is not always borne out by statistics, ib. 15367. Number of new cases dealt with in 1900 being 283, and representing 791 souls; when contrasted with number 14,000 added to population of United Kingdom, shows, after making due allowance for other towns, the number of paupers is a quantite neqligmble; nor would it be much effected by the six months' regulation, ib. 15372. Grants no loans to foreigners resident less than one year ; amount of loans granted, ib. 15385-15386. Industrial Committee—Functions of, ib. 15396. Sanitary Committee of, its functions, procedure, cost, system of inspection, methods to ward off insanitary conditions, treatment of tuberculosis, *tc., ib. 15400. d 228 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Jewish Board of Guardians—continued, Reports of, respecting excessive immigration in 1900 (an exceptional year), and repatriation, ib. 15419. * Have very few cases of rejections from Jewish Board of Guardians, ib. 15468. Object of, to keep immigration in check to prevent congestion, ib. 15475. Deals with each case on its merits, ib. 15491. Warns aliens against coming here, to prevent ex- cessive immigration, ib. 15493. Adequate to deal with crises, ib. 15539. Dissemination of aliens by, ib. 15560. Communications from United Hebrew Charities (America) suggesting inquiry into cases emigrated ; and action of Board of Guardians, ib. 15584. Act independently of the United Hebrew Charities of New York, ib. 15588. Distributes tickets of the North London Groceries Fund, ib. 15637. Spasmodically sends warning circulars to aliens, ib. 15641. Arranges with the German police for repatriating cases, ib. 15693. Repatriates, very few rejected by America, ib. 15698. Form and nature of relief given by, ib. 15712. Number of applicants relieved by, and amount expended thereon, ib. 15715. Emigration, cases of, Joseph 15932. Deals with Polish and German cases, ib. 16001. Methods adopted by, to secure accurate census returns of Jewish population, Emanuel 16597. Of London and the principal provincial towns; digest of reports on number of aliens relieved, with remarks, 1897 to 1901, inclusive, ib. 16605. The cruelty of their policy of repatriation, Greenberg 17111. Jewish Board of Guardians (Glasgow)—Number of cases relieved by, and amount expended, Pimto 20930. Jewish Board of Guardians (Leeds)—Repatriate many, Freedman 20464. Jewish Board of Guardians (Liverpool)—Accommo- date destitute aliens for a limited period in a temporary shelter, Hope 21447. Jewish Board of Guardians (Manchester) : Methods adopted by, Isaacs 20736. K Trade of foreigners relieved in Manchester under one year's residence, 1901-2, Isaacs Table E. Casuals defined, and how treated, ib. 20736. Wevy few Jews come direct to Manchester requiring relief, ib. 20745 and Table. Native cases relieved by, from 1882 to 1902 inclusive, ib. Table C., 20755. Classification of foreigners relieved, according to " " country, by, from 1882 to 1902, inclusive, ib. Table B., 20755. Cases of Jewish foreigners relieved by, from 1882 to 1902, inclusive, ib. Table A., 20755. Ages of foreigners who arrived in 1901-2, relieved by, resident under one year, ib. Table D., 20755. Advance loans, ib. 20787. Do not apprentice, ib. 20789. How deal with cases of deserted wives, ib. 20796. Repatriate in co-operation with the Society for the Relief of Distressed Foreigners; procedure, ib 20800, 20836. Funds of, how collected; amount expended in the year, ib. 20813. Discourage immigration to the city, Niven, 21845. Jewish Board of Guardians and Russo-Jewish Con- Joint Committee : Return showing the number of refugees arriving, and either relieved, emigrated, or repatriated, in the 21 years, 1888 to 1902, inclusive, and the cost, Joseph 15914. Cease to send particulars of emigration case8 to United Hebrew Charities, New York, ib. 15922. j" Dh ert immigration from London in 1883, < b. 15928. Emigrate to all countries, but principally to America, ib. 15931. Investigate before emigrating cases, ib. 15929. Jewish Charities : Great Jewish Charities in England attract Jewish immigrants, A. White 361 ; A. T. William* 2905-2913, 2973-2976 ; J. Lyons 3338-3340. Bequest of money for purpose of encouraging foreign immigration into London should be forbidden, A. White 988-990, 1263-1267. Economic effect on immigration, T. Herzl 6253. Administering, suggestion as to repressing pro- fessional and wandering beggars, ib. 6469. Have no attractive influence, Gordon 17601. Nature and method of relief, Cohen 15606. Only Board of Guardians, Russo-Jewish Committee, and soup kitchens give relief, ib. 15612. Chiefly work in co-operation with Jewish Board of Guardians, ib. 15618. Do not attract aliens, Gordon 17601. Jewish Charities, North London Groceries Fund— Distributes tickets through Board of Guardians, Cuhen 15637. Jewish Children (Glasgow)—Manners of, very good, Pinto 20888. Jewish Colonisation Society : Conducting emigration from Roumania, Cohen 15293. Functions of, ib. 15295. Jewish Colony —In Notting Hill, Montagu 16908. Jewish Congregational Union—Appoints Dispersion Committee, Montagu 16776. Jewish Dispersion Committee : Object of, Montagu 16768, 168,95. Appointed by Jewish Congregational Union, ib. 16776. Does not disperse fresh arrivals, ib. 16778. Procedure of, ib. 16780. Have sent some alien Jews to Reading, ib. 16786. Send only where there is a Jewish Community, ib- 16787. Send only where application is made for workmen, ib. 16789. Have sent families to Leicester at request of tailors there, ib. 16791. Arrange for Trades Union wages for workers dispersed, ib. 16793. r Deals also with the suburbs, ib. 16863. Result of work of, since commencement, ib. 16871. Demand a knowledge of the English language, ib. 16899. In America, very successful, ib. 16935. Would endeavour to disseminate on arrival in the event of legislation closing an area, ib. 16985. Issue circulars, warning Jews not to come, ib. 16992. Finds demand of employers in excels of supply, ib. 17003. Does not send to Leeds, or towns where there are many aliens ; wish to avoid forming ghettos, ib. 17012. Jewish Emigration Methods, Evans-Gordon 13349. Jewish Federation Society of Charities—A collection of synagogues, Cohen 15456. Jewish Guilds—Not permitted in Russia, Landau 16305 Jewish Holidays—Christian Street School closed on, Nugent 18845. Jewish Immigrants : From Russia and Poland show signs of moral de- generacy, Lewis 17503. Objects of, in settling in England, Finn 20269. Come with a knowledge of tailoring to supply a need felt in Manchester through the apprenticeship system dying out, Policoff 21023. Have introduced the mantle-making trade, ib. 21046. Jewish Immigration : Causes to which due—(a) Attractive ; (b) Expulsive* (a) Attractive : Demand for labour in certain occupations, H.L.Smith 176. Jewish charities in England, A. White 361 ; A. T. Williams 2905 ; J. Lyons 3340.INDEX, 2® Jewish Immigration—continued. Causes to which clue—continued. (a) Attractive—continued. Loans granted by benevolent Jews to alien immigrants, A. White 361 ; A. T. Williams 2906. Free institutions of England; English laws and structure of society; absence of restrictive laws; demand for cheap labour ; existence of Poor Law; societies for promoting Christianity among Jews, A. White 362-369. Zionist societies, ib. 370-374. Hope of getting something from Russo- Polish Fund, ib. 402, 986. Money bequeathed by foreigners to en- courage foreign immigration into London, ib. 988-990. Foreigners already here attract others, ib, 991-994; A. T. Williams 1660-1661; 2905, 2914-2916; Barrett 2272; Silver 2753 ; J. Lyons 3283 ; Mr. U'A." 3361- 3365, 3456, 3514 ; Mr. " B." 3570 ; Mr. "<7." 3760. In some cases foreigners attract others in order to sweat them, Silverstone 1856- 1858, 1913 ; Onion 2493-2494 ; Mr. " (7.". 3802-3803. Building schemes in London, A. T. Williams 1621; Belcher 4306. Schools, free hospitals and charitable funds, A. T. Williams 1677-1678 ; Herd 6251. Expulsive: Enactment of May Laws in Russia, H. L. Smith 172-173. Racial troubles in country of origin, ib. 174-- 176. State of servitude and misery in which nine million Jews live, A. White 332. Oppression of Jews in Russia and Roumania ib. 339-351. Six million, Jews confined to a certain area in Russia; this area does not expand although the Jewish population increases annually by 80,000 souls, ib. 352. Consequent necessity for an outlet; Russian authorities encourage Jews to emigrate, , tb. 355-359; Ai T. Williams 1678. Jewish Labour : In Huddersfield commenced about 1870, to meet demand of the wholesale trade, Bairstow 15140. In Sheffield has substituted English-made for Ameri- cati fiirniturfc, Wigram 20085. J»wish. Labour in Eastern Europe, Evans-Gordon 13349. Jewi3h Ladies' Health Association—In Manchester, Supply information to local authorities on sanitary matters in Manchester, Niven 21806. Jewish Lads'Brigade : Members of, largely of foreign parentage ; many born abroad, Myers 818. Physique and morals of foreign boys improved by drill, Captain Denniss 18273, Challenge shield carried off by, ib. 18273. Administration and purpose of, ib. 18280-83. Admirable work done by, Bawden 18874. Jewish Life in Russia : Present Jewish population of Russia about 5,800,000 ; annual increase, 80,000, A. White 352. Confined to certain areas, which do not expand, ib. 337, 352. Subjected to cruel oppression, ib. 337. Owing to Russian fear of Jewish ascendency, ib. 339. And to religious intolerance, ib. 345. ? .Their emancipation regarded by Russians as im- practicable ; Russian Government statistics pre- ; sented to Pahlen Commission favourable to Jews; intolerable condition of Israelites of the. Pale; in- , ; i credible destitution; existence of typhus ; great overcrowding, ib. 345. > Legal and social disabilities ; general misery, ib. 347* Inferior, physique, of poor. Jew townsman ; his great ;-\ capacity to sustain exertion ; his high moral tone, | ib. 8**', Jewish Life in Russia—continued. Russian Jews undesirable immigrants to any over- populated country ; their diet and accommodation at home inferior to those of inmates of English prisons and workhouses, ib. 336, 349. Russians encourage their emigration, ib. 358-359. A. T. Williams 1678. And are amused at England's hospitality in receiving them, A. White 355-356. Permanency of causes impelling Russian Jews to emigrate, ib. 360. Their loyalty to their faith, ib. 345, 352. Pale, a technical term used to describe sixteen Russian provinces allotted for residence of Jewish population, ib. 1172. Percentage of rejected Jewish army recruits in Russia in 1899 nearly fourteen times as great as that of native Russians, A. T. Williams 1678-1680. Jewish Population : Natural increase of, in East End, Joseph 15964. Natural average increase of, and by immigration in London, ib. 16018. Increase of, in London from 1880 to 1900, including and excluding children born in England, ib. 16026- 16075. Increases more from natural growth than alien immigration, Gordon 17723. Jewish Press—Efforts made by, to persuade its readers that the anti-alien agitation is an anti-Jewish agitation, A. T. Williams 2962-2972. Jewish Rabbi—Obtains work for greeners in cabinet- making trade in Leeds, Thompson 14700. Jewish Societies —Which deal with aliens ca arrival, Montagu 16981. Jewish Temporary Shelter—Action of, on arrival of immigrants. Gordon 17777. (See Poor Jews Tem- porary Shelter.) Jewish Trade Unions : Need encouragement, L. Lyons 14117, 14155. Chiefly consist of aliens, and are difficult to organise, ib. 14159. Opposed by the " Jewish Chronicle " and clergy of synagogues* ib. 14252. Are favoured by the Zionist School, ib. 14255. Work harmoniously with English Unions in Leeds, Marston 14310. Jewish United Synagogue—Relieve cases through Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15456. Jewish Year Book : Jewish population of Russia given as 4J millions in 1898-99 issue of, and as 6 millions in 1901-02 issue, A. White 405,; 960-968. Great care taken in preparation of statistics, Green- berg 17090. Mr. Arnold White's criticism on statistics con- troverted, ib. 17090. Jews : Principal occupations of, L. Lyons 14068. Characteristics' of, Vaughan 13160 ; Cohen 15743 ; Montagu 16803. Characteristics of new settlers, Joseph 15762. Alien—Improve their position after a short residence, ib. 15770. Adequately housed by the Location and Information Bureau of the Russo-Jewish Committee, ib. 15770. On the whole free from serious crimes; anarchism unknown amongst them, percentage of, to native prisoners, Emanuel 16632. Characteristics of, their loyalty, ib. 16632. Religious rites of; requiring complete cleansing of houses, Montagu 16808. Have introduced cheap clothing into England, in place of second-hand clothing, ib. 16829. Proportion of London Jews in the East End, ib. 16926. Characteristics of, good and Jt>ad, according to John A Hobson in "Problems of Poverty," Greenberg 17107....... .... • Their love of comfort, ib. 17108. ; , Sobriety of, ib. 17108 ; Barnett 17552. Longevity of, Greenberg 17114. ......gj30 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Index. J ews—continued. Suicide very rare amongst, ib. 17118. Their infantile mortality very low, ib. 17118. Vital statistics of, as shown by the birth and death rate in America, ib. 17118. Vital statistics of, in Russia, as shown by the birth and death rate, ib. 17119. Have brought much trade as producers into East, of London, Barnett 17518. Accept low wages at first, but soon improve their position, ib. 17523. Become members of the Board of Guardians, ib. 17526. Take interest in local affairs, ib. 17526. : Causes of exclusive dealing of, Gordon 17609. Are very anxious to become naturalised, ib. 17613. In St. Pancras, occupations of, Prag 17822. j In St. Pancras, spread over the district, ib. 17822. 1 Have introduced trades into England ; summary of, ib. 17852. Why do not take to trade unionism, ib. 17852. Characteristics of, and how they differ from aliens of other nationalities, ib. 17852. Their influence on the cabinet trade, according to Mr. Horace Regnart, of Maple's, Limited, ib. 17860. Orderly behaviour of, cleanliness and sobriety of, Capt. Warden Denniss 18270. Holidays of, ways of spending, ib. 18270. Take more interest in their children than natives, ib. 18270. Conduct of, decorous and decent, as compared with that of natives, ib. 18273. Superior quality of food bought by, ib. 18273. Loyalty of, ib. 18273. Physique and morals of foreign boys improved by Jewish Lads' Brigade, ib. 18273. Prizes and challenge shield carried off by Jewish boys, ib. 18273. Ill-feeling against, encouraged by proselytisers in Whitechapel, ib. 18274. Quiet behaviour of, under provocation, ib. 18274. Strictness in religious observance of, ib. 18274. Sacrifices made for their religion by, ib. 18274. Compulsory holidays frequently cause of alleged long hours, ib. 18274. English quickly learnt by, ib. 18288. Old Castle Street and Chicksand Street Schools, scholars consisting principally of, ib. 18289. Learn chess and draughts at Brady Street Club, ib. 18293. Handicrafts taken up by, on leaving school, ib. 18295. Jewish Board of Guardians, boys apprenticed to various trades by, on leaving school, ib. 18295 ; Bawden 18868. Jewish Free School, good scholars produced by, Capt. Dennis 18298. Ill-feeling against, spread by conversionists' methods, ib. 18301. Men thrifty and domesticated, as often marry English as Jewish women, W. Ward 18311. Exception for women to go out to work, ib. 18311. Owing to their religion, depend on their own shops for food, ib. 18311. Fish stall owned by English Christian, supported by, ib. 18311. Forbearance of, towards conversionists, ib. 18312. Conversionists' methods towards, ib. 18312. Whitechapel, seek vaccination, ib. 18314. Jewish Free School, well attended, Bruce, 18334- 18336. Dislike to moving, ib. 18376. Respectful attitude of foreign, to Christian religion, Ward 18312. Settle Street principally inhabited by, Mansfield 18394. Better class leaving district of Settle Street causes deterioration of status of scholars attending Board school, ib. 18401. Have larger families than Christians, ib. 18418. Roumanian and Polish, least intellectual, ib. 18421. Shops kept by, in West Stepney, close on Saturdays, open on Sundays, Williams 18521. ' Strict observance of the Sabbath and holy days by, i ib. 18523. Large proportion of, in population of Christian Street, St. George's, ib. 18806. Career of Russo-Pole, from " greener " or apprentice i to manufacturer, Abrahams 18899. J ews—continued. Rubber factories owned by, closed on Saturdays, ib* 18899. Female labour employed in; wages paid; equal number of Christian and Jewish hands ; list of firms in rubber trade started and owned by foreigners, ib. 18899. (English) number of employed in ladies' tailoring; introduced by foreign, Cohen 18968. Jewish Board of Guardians assist those aliens who- cannot make an existence here to return to their own country, Somper 19161. Jewish master tailor, work done by, employing; Russians and Poles, Wright 19655. Ready-made tailoring, work done entirely by foreign, ib. 19673. Preference of, for working under one of their own: creed, ib. 19672. In Reading, engage in tailoring and other trades;. Martin 19795. Increasing numbers and prosperity of ; good qualities ;of as business men and citizens ; bring new in- dustries into the town, ib. 19797. Children of, attend school regularly, ib. 19797. Synagogue built in Reading, ib. 19797. Wages of, in tailoring trade at Reading, ib. 19797. Charities in Reading contributed to by, ib. 19797. Russo-Polish, proportion of, in foreign population of Reading, ib. 19799, 19850. Many " greeners " in Reading, ib. 19807, 19834. Employed by Jews, and some by Reading men, iba. 19810. Great demand supplied by goods made by, ib. 19815. Costermongers sell fish, fruit, and vegetables, Lyon# 19857. Fish and poultry bought from native shops or stalls by, ib. 19857. Buy great numbers of fowls, prefer them alive, ib. 1*9857, 19893. Buy from Christians, ib. 19901, 19902. Kosher meat only bought from Jewish butchers, ib* 19905. Increased number of costermongers ; prosecutions for street obstruction, ib. 19920. Reasons why aliens live more expensively than natives, Freedman 20385. Not engaged in Scotch mining industries, but Roman? Catholic Poles, Pinto 20946. Number of, employed in baking trade in East London,. Roth 21925. In West London, proportion of, to foreign population, Fersht 20652. Have migrated largely from the East End of London into the West End as their condition improves, ib. 20656. A very large proportion of, in West London are tailors on arrival, ib. 20665. In Glasgow, come principally from London and other towns ; not direct, Pinto 20878. Jews (English)—Principally in the western part of Whitechapel, Lewis 17246. Jews (Glasgow)—Loyalty of, Pinto 20894. Jews, Standard of living—In Glasgow, is high, Pinto 20894. Jews as Merchants and Traders in Eastern Europe. —Evans-Gordon 13349. Jews in Galicia—Evans-Gordon 13349. Jews in Leeds : Number of, in the clothing trade, Freedman 20372. Strong supporters of trade unions, ib. 20373. Jews in Manchester : Very few come direct to Manchester, Isaacs 20745* and Table. Have created trades, now employing British work- men, ib. 20850. Have increased considerably 'and extended. Gilmour 21220. Good qualities of, ib. 21264. Their gambling propensities, ib. 21253, 21373. Overcrowd in. Manchester more than natives, ib*. 21232 ; Niven 21750, 21773.INDEX. 31 Jews m Manchester— continued. Number of, in Manchester, ib. 21762. Character of houses of, in Manchester, ib. 21765. Come direct to Manchester via Hull, ib. 21786. Jews in Poland—Evans-Gordon 13349. Jews in Reading : Occupations of, Bull 20468. General good character of, ib. 20468. Jews in Roumania—Evans-Gordon 13349. Jews in Russia—Evans-Gordon 13349. Jews in Sheffield—Their general characteristics, Wigram 20085. Jews in Soho—Views of the Rev. Mr. Lax on, Prag 17825. Judaism, Tenets of—Directly influence Jewish immigra- tion, Greenberg 17090. Juvenile Suits—In ready-made clothing trade made in factories, Marston 14285. K. Keeper : Description—He sub-lets, D. L. Thomas 5588. Proceedings taken against him. Corresponds to owner of model dwellings, ib. 5588. Often a man of straw, ib. 5639. Kensington : Foreign population of, in proportion to English, Emanuel 16601. Table showing result of sanitary inspection of houses, Dr. Hamer 17971. Detailed explanation of, ib. 17974-89, 18023-18032. Few aliens in, ib. 17973. . More overcrowded in 1899 than Mile End Old Town and Whitechapel in 1894, ib. 17993. Common lodging-houses in, sanitary conditions better than in tenemented houses owing to regulations being strictly enforced, ib. 18002. Overcrowding night inspections made by Vestry, ib.- 18036. Overcrowding less than in East End; confined to groups of streets in a comparatively small area, t&. 18073-75. Kettering—Men's boots made at, Weber 19306. Key-Money : Origin and nature of, A. White 391-398 ; Barrett 2162-2169 ; Brown 2401-2405, 2415, 2422, 2445- 2446 ; Silver 2659-2665 ; Z. Solomons 3222-3236 ; Foot 6683. Payment of, now a general practice in East End of London, Barrett 2170-2177 ; Brown 2402 ; Silver 2620, 2659 ; Belcher 4141-4161. Was established by alien immigrants, Barrett 2243 ; Brown 2402-2405 ; Silver 2617 ; 2660, 2665. Not allowed on Chapman Estate or on Mercers' Estate, Silver 2620-2623. Might have existed 50 years ago, but was then a pay- ment for fixtures, Z. Solomons 3226-3227. Case of, Dix 5383. Stepney, deposit for key, G. H. Garrett 6573. Overcrowding due to, J. Foot 6579. Key-money practically a premium, and as such adding to value of property for assessment, ib. 6670, 6671 ; Harper 11554. Recipient of key-money, J. Foot 6676, 6679. Jew purchaser of Whitechapel workshop stating he would receive key-money from incoming tenant, Turner 8552. Foreigner offering resident key-money if he would move, J. W. Johnson 8559. Paying premium for key, custom arising from alien influx, Tyler 8636. Outgoing tenant sometimes receives the key-money, but generally the landlord, W. C. Thomas 8695 ; jRev. A. E. Dalton 10223. Views on, Rev. W. H. Davies 9742. Stepney, people bought out of houses, P. Walter 11466. , Details concerning, E. Harper 11537. Key-Money—continued. Agents frequently turn out tenants to get key-money for their own benefit, H. Evans 11680. Practice of, in Leeds, Bialofski 15126. Alien increase not affecting, Lewis Solomon 18162. Amount of, given in Commercial Road, ib. 18191. Does not obtain in Glasgow, Pinto 20875. King's Dinner—In Radcliffe Ward, Stepney, no alien or Jew at, T. E. Williams 18543-45. King's Lynn—Settlement in 1570 of Dutch immigrants^ W. J. C. Moens 23143. Kings wood—Characteristics of boot and shoe trade in, H. L. Smith 22510. Kovno—Evans-GGrdon 13349. L. Labour (Alien) : Seasonal pressure sometimes compelling best masters to unnatural spells, H. Evans 11705. Native system of work compared to foreign, ib. 11707- Desirability of regulating adult labour hours, how it would help the solution of the overcrowding ques- tion in affected areas, ib. 11723, 11726. Legal hours of work, effect on capacity or turn-out, ib. 11724-25. Long hours and low wages not synonymous in Step- ney, ib. 11726. Advantage to consumers of sub-division of labour, ib. 11731. Being cheaper than machinery, displaces machines in boot and shoe trades, Amstell 12251. Has displaced native labour, ib. 12258. In excess of the needs of the tailoring trade, Whatley 13781. Should be filtered, not excluded, ib. 13860. Increase of, in Great Britain since 1896, and general tendency of, Bairstow 15155. Large number of British miners being idle while equal number of alien miners are employed, proves that aliens are displacing native labour, ib. 22998. Feeling against importation of foreign labour growing daily more bitter among Scottish miners, ib. 23007. Sweating in mines, method of, ib. 23014. Labour (Native) : Condition of in Leeds affected by alien immigration, Conndlan 15000. Machinery causes displacement of alien in boot and shoe trade, Weber 19306. Difficulty of obtaining, in East End boot and shoe trade, ib. 19614, 19645-48, 19653. Female, displaced by aliens, Wright 19678. Displacement of, in East End, due to economic changes, Harris 21616. Test—Of Russo-Jewish Committee, Joseph 16230. Ladies' Boots and Shoes—Method of manufacture,- Amstell 12224. Lambeth : Table showing result of sanitarjr inspection of houses, Dr. Hamer 17971. Further explanation of, ib. 17974-89, 18023-32. Few aliens in, ib. 17973. More overcrowded in 1895 than Mile End Old Town and Whitechapel in 1894, ib. 17993. Lanarkshire Coal Masters' Association : Baird 21111. Object to any restriction of competent foreign work- men, ib. 21117. Lanarkshire District—Number of miners employed in* Lumsden 14580. Lanarkshire Mines. See Miners, Foreign. Lanarkshire Miners' Association : Members, number of, D. Gilmour 23018. Alien members do not press for fair payment, *6. 23030. Sum of money expended in three years by Association in fighting strikes and keeping up standard of wages, ib. 23032.32 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : ikdixo Lanarkshire Steel Works—Large number of Poles r employed in, Lumsden 14474. I \cashire : Calico printers, wages of, compared with Stepney- tailors', H, Evans 11726. Different law in, giving greater power to sanitary inspectors, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17929-30. Landlords: English preferred, Dix 5360. East End landlords refusing to receive Christian tenants, J. Foot 6659. Landlord residing on premises renders more feasible ; the enforcing of Tenement House Bye-laws, ib. 6888. Remissness of alien landlords as to sanitary matters, Hodge 8033. Liability under Public Health Act to penalty for allowing overcrowding in his house, F. Mead 10605. Landlord should be penalised for allowing over- crowding, /. Brown 11116. Present law between landlord and tenant unsatis- factory, process of getting rid of bad tenant should be shorter, ib, 11435. Language (Alien) : Difficulty of interpreting does not reduce charges against aliens, Haden Corser 12911. Assists clannish feeling of aliens in matter of evidence, ib. 12913. Latjdy—His statement of possible earnings of slipper- makers proves employment of long hours, Conndlan 15016. Law (American)—In respect to aliens, changes in, H. L. Smith 22570. Law (Australian)—In respect to aliens, ib. 22578. Laws and Regulations, Suggested, to restrict Immigration of Aliens into the United Kingdom: Bill proposed by Mr. Arnold White, and published ' in his book on " The Modern Jew," A. White 1034-1054. Restrictive regulations should at first be applied to Port of London only, ib. 1114-1129. Possibility of restrictive measures being followed by retaliation on part of foreign nations, ib. 1155-1169. Restrictive measures would have beneficial deterrent effect in continental ports, Silver 2752-2753': Classes of persons who should be restricted, Z. Solomons 3200-3215 ; Mr. B. 3657-3659. Law should be passed prohibiting foreigners from buying land, or owning houses, Belcher 4307. Lax, Rev. H. H.—Report of, re characteristic features of the Soho district, Walters 13098 ; Prag 17825. Leather Dealers—In the East End are English; certain firms mentioned, I. Solomons 20511. Lebus, of Tottenham—Large employer of alien labour in furniture trade, J, O'Grady 13991 ; Prag 17860. Leeds: Has a separate clothiers' cutters' trade union, Whatley 13665. 1 Centre of cheap ready-made clothing industry, Marston 14269. Cheap tweeds made in, ib. 14276. Has large tailoring factories, ib. 14278. Jewish population of, ib. 14327. Overcrowding in, due to alien labour, ib. 14404 ; Bialofshi 15118. Excess of labour in, largely due to alien immigration, Marston 14411. Cabinet-making trade in—see under Trade, Cabinet Making. Industries in, affected by alien immigration, Con- ndlan 15000. Leyland's area now entirely occupied by aliens, ib. 15018, 15052. Alien population of, according to Census, ib. 15028. General population of, ib. 15032. <; Number of houses occupied by Jews in the Leyland's area, ib. 15033. Large number of English Jews in, ib. 15036. Leeds—continued. Home work in, causing sweated conditions, ih, 15038. Criminal population of, not large, ib. 15043. Female labour in. ib. 15067. Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 (inclusive), Emanuel 16605. Conditions in, in the tailoring trade, as compared with those in London, Freedman 20404. Wages earned in Jewish workshops in, higher than, those earned in factories, Policofj 21050 Leeds City Council—Action of, to check overcrowding,. Marston 14340. Leeds Jewish Tailors, Machinists, and Pressers' Trade Union—Is almost exclusively Jewish, Freedman 20366. Leeds Trade and Labour Council. See Trade Union. Legislation, American and Colonial, Relating to Alien Immigration : A. American: Message of President to two Houses of Congress in 1901, suggesting further legislative enact- ments to prevent immigration of undesirable persons (Extract read by Chairman), 237. Particulars of existing (1902) law; Chinese Exclusion Acts, H. L. Smith 238. Contract Labour Law, ib. 239-242. General law restricting immigration of undesir- able persons, ib. 243-244. Machinerv for carrying exclusion into effect, ib, 245-262. Statistics of immigrants rejected by the United States in 1901, ib. 263-290. Law imposing educational test vetoed by President in 1897, ib. 309-311. Penalties for non-compliance with Acts, ib. 312— 316. Statistics of immigration into United States showing numbers before and after restrictive Acts were passed, ib. 317-321. Decrease in numbers after passing of Immigra tion t Acts of 1891 and 1893 probably due in great l; measure to collapse of industry, ib. 321-323. Effect of restrictive laws in United States not shown by statistics of rejected persons re- turned therefrom; deterrent effect in place of origin greater than apparent effect in place of arrival, A. White 937,973-974 ; Herzl 6487. Sketch of law from 1847 to the present day,, Evans-Gordon 16313. Is not preventive, Montagu 16867. Will not have much effect in keeping out aliens,, ib. 16884. Deterrent effect of, trivial, Joseph 15869. Acts as a preventive force, Cohen 15524. B. Colonial: Special laws in several colonies excluding Asiatics and coloured persons ; Contract Labour Law in Canada ; apparent absence of r other laws restricting immigration of aliens as such, except in New Zealand, H. L. Smith 291, 304. Bond required in certain colonies from master of any vessel bringing passengers suffering from mental or physical infirmity ; nature of bond, ib. 294-295. Educational test imposed in some colonies to exclude Asiatics, ib. 297-303. Illiterate clause in New Zealand Act confined to aliens, ib. 304, 306; machinery of exclusion, ib. 305-306. Colonies refusing admission to aliens, Johnson 8560. Prohibited immigrant (Australia), term defined. Mead 10783. Undesirable Immigrants' Act (Australian) ex- cluding, provisions of, Mead 10784. Leicester : Has well-organised boot and shoe Unions, T, a Grady 13597, Families sent to, by Jewish Dispersion Committee, Montagu 16791.INDEX, 33 Leicester—continued. No aliens employed in boot and shoe trade at, Weber 19306. Strong feeling against machinery in boot and shoe trade in, ib. 19544. Leicester and Northampton — Aliens not found in, T. O'Orady 13638. Leman Street Refuge—Supplies "greeners'"- to the furniture trade, J. 0' Grady 14018. Leylands, Area of, in Leeds—Now entirely inhabited by aliens, Connellan 15018. Libatj : ' Evans-Gordon 13349. Ships coming from, filthy state of passengers, H. Williams 6140, 7118. Improved condition of ships and passengers, ib. 6164. Ships, accommodation for immigrants, ib. 6174, 6983. Boats from, improvement in condition of passengers and ships on arrival, ib. 6971. Construction of ships unsuited for passengers, ib. 6980. Condition of ships improved since Commission appointed, F. Mead 10662 ; H. L. Smith 22534. See also Transmigrants. Emigrants from, subject to tests, Joseph 15906. Better class of immigrants proceed direct from Libau, Landau 16285. Medical examination at, is very slight, but great strictness observed about passports, ib. 16363. Large majority of aliens from, are transmigrants, H. L. Smith 22536. Immigrants from, in 1902, ib. 22541. "Life and Ways of the People"—Reference to Mr. Charles Booth's book on, A. White 405. Limehouse : k' % \ z,!^ |fgj§ Is one of the four sanitary areas of the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, Murphy 3913-3914. Ratio borne by foreign to total population in 1891 and 1901, ib. 3917. Statistics of overcrowding, as shown by Census enumerations of 1891 and 1901, ib. 3926-3948. Vital statistics, ib. 3949-3960. Overcrowding, bye-laws against, not enforced owing to inadequate number of inspectors, Dr. Hamer 17971. Foreign population smaller than Whitechapel and Mile End, ib. 17994. Linguistic Test—In America should not keep out Yiddish-speaking aliens, Montagu 16889. List, Secret : Alleged to be kept by Board of Trade, of alien immigrants whose appearance on their arrival was peculiarly filthy, A. White 946-948, 957-959. Explanation that this list was one prepared during the cholera epidemic by the medical officers of the London Port Sanitary Authority, who temporarily detained the aliens included in the list, Hawkey 1381-1382, 1404-1406 ; Murphy 5123. Literary Society (Glasgow)—Classes of, well supported by Jews, Pinto 20889. Liverpool: Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 inclusive, Emanuel 16605. Forty consular representatives in, Hope 21398. Alien immigration has markedly increased of late years in, Hope 21399. Majority of alien immigrants in, from Western Russia and Poland, Hope 21402. Areas of, in which Jewish aliens settle, ib. 21402. Number of Jewish settlers in, ib. 21403. Character of houses occupied by Jews in, ib. 21405. Majority of alien immigrants in, come direct from abroad, ib. 21409. Domestic arrangements of aliens in, ib. 2141L Infantile mortality low in, .owing to maternal care of Jewish women, ib. 21412. A staff of female inspectors in ; their duties, ib, 21418. 6144. Liverpool—continued. Law against overcrowding is enforced without diffi- culty, ib. 21425. Registration of lodging-houses actively carried on in, ib. 21427. Ail lodging-houses are registered in, ib. 21427. ^ Copy of bye-laws is supplied to each occupier of a registered lodging-house, ib. 21432. ^ Sanitary authorities proceed invariably under bye- laws, ib. 21441. Method adopted by Jewish immigrants in taking houses, ib. 21443. Registered Jewish lodging-houses owned by shipping companies for the use of transmigrants, ib. 21444. Jewish Board of Guardians accommodate destitute aliens for a limited period in a temporary shelter, ib. 21447. Character and habits of Jewish aliens, ib. 21448. Principal occupations of Jewish immigrants in, ib., 21448. No evidence of ill-feeling in, between aliens and natives, ib. 21450. Replacement, rather than displacement, of the native population by aliens, ib. 21452. Foreign population of, ib. 21454. Foreign (non-Jewish) population of ; their occupa- tions and character, ib. 21459. Italians in, ib. 21462. How transmigrants are dealt with in, ib. 21469, 21527. Aliens, rejected in America, on their return to, are forwarded home, ib. 21485. Restrictive measures would damage interests of,. ib. 21492. Area of municipality, ib. 21493. Overcrowding in, how dealt with, ib. 21499, 21514.: Rejection of undesirables in, requires special ma- chinery, ib. 21506. Cattlemen in, ib. 21507; Shipping companies are responsible for returning those rejected in America to their homes, Joseph 21593. Report on, especially in respect to the shipment o£ transmigrants, Eddis 21713. Action of shipping companies in, in respect to alien, transmigrants, ib. 21713. Medical examination of transmigrants in, by (a) shipping companies' doctors, (b) Board of Trade* doctor, ib. 21713. Living, Cost of—Reasons why more expensive to Jews than natives, Freedman 20385. Lloyd's—Agent wires arrival of vessels at Gravesend carrying aliens for London to Superintendent of Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, Somper 19055. Loane, Dr.—Action of, respecting Booth Street Build- ings, D. L. Thomas 5765-5769. Loans : Not granted to aliens resident less than one year by Jewish Board of Guardians: amount of loan? granted, Cohen 15385-153^6. Advanced by the Manchester Jewish Board of: Guardians, Isaacs 20787. Location and Information Bureau ; Connected with the Russo-Jewish Committee, super- vises the adequate housing of lews, Joseph 15770,5. Disseminates population, ib. 16159. Procedure of: difficulties attending, ib, 16163; Number of oases assisted in 1902, ib. 161(53. Lodging-houses—Inspection rendered difficult in some districts by decision in 'Weatheritt v. Cantlay, J. Lithiby 23454. Lodz—Evans-Gordon 13349. London: Total foreign population of, Macleod 511-514; {See also Appendix, pp. 68-71). Population of, in central districts is either stationary or decreasing; in remainder of the county increasing at a decreasing rate; beyond the county increasing rapidly, Harper 13933. Number of Jewish alien cases relieved in 1897-1901, inclusive, by Jewish Board of Guardians, Emanuel 16605. E34 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: London County Council : Method of procedure with reference to tailoring contracts insuring high wages for cutters, and thus securing good work, Whatley 13792. Its definition of overcrowding, Hamper 13937. Should be encouraged by the Legislature to prosecute housing schemes in suburbs, Joseph 15820. Purchase of land, near Thornton Heath, for the erec- tion of houses, ib. 15822. Power possessed by, to act in cases of overcrowding neglected by local authority, J. Lithiby 23509. London, Growth of : Since 1861, due to advent of non-Londoners, Gordon 17631. During the last 10 years retarded by the excess of migration from, ib. 17633. "Complete saturation" in 1881, ib. 17636. London Jewish Master Bakers' Society—The Secre- tary of the East London Bakers' Union cavils at sundry statements made by Mr. Levy, Chairman of; denies its existence, Both 21874 ; Levy 21960. London, Tilbury and Southend Railway Company : Have displaced population by the erection of ware- houses in East End, Landau 16295. Has caused the conversion of residential into indus- trial areas, Gordon 17688. London Trades Council—Unanimously reject resolu- tion advocating restriction, I. Solomons 20512, 20544. Lobery and Co.—Contract tailors, their method of cutting down prices, L. Lyons 14248. M. Machine (Boston) Lasting—Capabilities of, in the manufacture of boots and shoes, Finn 20276. Machinery: Sub-division of labour due to introduction of, Evans 11707; Conndlan 15061. Number of machines employed for making one shoe, H. Evans, 11706-8. See Trades (Boot and Shoe). Sweater, will be eventually displaced by, H. Evans 11690, 11804. Foreign workman gets better wages now owing to sub-division of labour and introduction of, Evans 11713-14. Transformation in leather trade owing to introduction of, ib. 11731. Development of boot and shoe trade due to, especially the machine invented by Blake to stitch soles to uppers, Amstell 12207. Not used by aliens in boot and shoe trade, ib. 12209. Boston Laster (shoe), result on wages and hours, ib. 13381. Band knives and chalking machine approved by union, Whatley 13741. Enables America to compete, L. Lyons 14211. Used in cabinet making factories in Leeds, Thompson 14699. Displacement of native and foreign labour caused by, in boot and shoe trade, Weber 19306. Introduction and improvement of, in boot and shoe trade causes reduction prices, ib. 19310. Used in all large East End factories of boots and shoes, ib. 19322. Machine work in boot and shoe trade cheaper than foreign labour, ib. 19344. Very little used in home workshops, ib. 19527. Use of, increasing in boot and shoe factories, ib. 19539. Natives best at, ib. 19543. Strong feeling against, in Leicester, ib. 19544. Some disadvantages of, ib. 19616. In tailoring trade, rapidity gained by sub-division and, Wright 19722. In boot and shoe trade solely responsible for reduction of labour and wages, Cohen 20056. Is used in cabinet trade in Sheffield, Wigram 20125. Sweating in small shops ceasing through introduction of. in boot and shoe trade, Finn 20275. In boot and shoe trade absolutely worked by natives, because requiring greater skill, Cohen 20029. Magistrates ; Are reluctant to enforce law against overcrowdings owing to lack of housing accommodation, A. T/ Williams 1652; Barrett 2245-2247, 2290-2291; Silver 2789 ; Murphy 4880. They will not convict in cases where the over- crowding is in one family, Loane 4624. Their leniency possibly due to sympathy with the overcrowded people, Murphy 4952-4976 ; D. L. Thomas 5485. Suggestion that power to close houses declared to be uninhabitable should be given to Bench of magistrates rather than to the stipendiary, Silver 2836-2838. Decisions of, in connection with workshops, Evans 11642. Proceedings more promptly taken before, in cases of overcrowding, in Manchester than in London; Mrs. L. A. Levy 17928. Maidstone—Settlement cf Dutch immigrants in 1567, W. J. C. Moens 23133. Manchester : Pauperism (alien) increased in 1900, but decreased in 1901, Emanuel 16601. Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897—1901 inclusive, ib. 16605. Sanitary arrangements superior to those in London, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17899. Female visitors appointed by sanitary authorities in, ib. 17899. Jewess district visitor employed by Corporation, ib. 17899. Soap, lime wash, and disinfectants supplied by local sanitary authorities, ib. 17899. Board of Health in connection with the sanitary workers in, ib. 17924. Waterproofing cloth done in, chiefly by foreigners, Abrahams 18939. Very few Jews come direct to, Isaacs 20745 and table. Jewish population in, greatly increased since 1882, ib. 20762 ; Gilmour 21265. Foreign population relieved in, consists chiefly of Russians and Poles, Isaacs 20773. Foreign population (Jewish) in, is industrial; princi- pal trades Jews engaged in, ib. 20782. Tailors in, work daily; machinists and pressers and the button-hole hands and finishers, who are exclusively women, by piece-work, Policoff 21012. Tailors in, work at first as machinists and pressers; wages earned, ib. 21033. Rainproof trade developed in, by Jews in Man- chester ; its great progress and wages earned in it, ib. 21041. Scarcity of Jewish workers in the tailoring trade in the busy time in, ib. 21093. Police district in which alien Jews reside, Gilmour 21200. , Habits of new arrivals as compared with the old inhabitants (foreign), ib. 21203. Rents in, how affected by alien immigrants, ib, 21213. Overcrowding in, caused by high rents, ib. 21214- 21232. The Jewish community in, is increasing, ib. 21220. Model dwellings in, built by Lancashire and York- shire Railway Company, occupied entirely by aliens, ib. 21223, 21296, 21344. Rents of, ib. 21224. Number of registered lodging-houses in, ib. 21233. Frequent proceedings taken under Public Health Act against alien Jews in, ib. 21238, 21306. Action of sanitary inspector in, ib. 21238, 21320. Condition of Jewish bakehouses in, ib. 21246. Gambling in, by the lower class of aliens, ib. 21253, 21373. Good qualities of Jews in, ib. 21264. Small amount of alien crime in, ib. 212730 Very few foreign prostitutes in, ib. 21277. Sunday work in, ib. 21282. Ill-feeling against aliens in, ib. 21283, 21379; Very few costermongers and hawkers in, ib. 21288. Number of police divisions in, ib. 21291.INDEX. 35 Manchester—continued. Alien population in, ib. 21331. , Home work in, ib. 21382. Alien Jews buy up house property in, ib. 21391. Wife desertion not common in, ib. 21393. The aliens in, are chiefly Jews, Russians and Poles, Niven 21740. Birth rate and death rate of Jewish population of, ib. 21742, 21872 (Table A). Death rate from phthisis lower amongst alien Jews than natives in, ib. 21749. Overcrowding greater amongst alien Jews than natives in, ib. 21750. Feelings of Jews towards vaccination in, ib. 21758. Number of Jews in, ib. 21762. Food of Jews in, ib. 21764. Character of houses occupied by Jews in, ib. 21765: Statistics showing overcrowding in certain districts of Manchester, with reference to the different nationalities, ib. 21775, 21872 (Table B). Alien Jews come direct to, vid Hull, ib. 21786. Sanitary defects to houses in, with reference to nationalities, as compared with those houses occupied by natives in the Strangeways, Red Bank, and Angel Meadow districts, ib. 21789, 21872 (Table C). Trachoma not marked amongst Jewish population of, ib. 21791., Diphtheria excessive amongst Jewish population of, ib. 21792. Small-pox very rare among Jewish population of, ib. 21794. Proportion of rooms in dwelling-houses occupied 1 as work rooms in, ib. 21799. Italians in, number and occupations of, ib. 21803. The Jewish Ladies' Health Association supply information to local authorities on sanitary matters in, ib. 21806. Overcrowding in, how dealt with, ib. 21815. Alien (Jewish) population is extending, ib. 21835. Alien immigration is not a burning question in, ib. 21855. Poles and Lithuanians (chiefly Roman Catholics) are in a different quarter to that of the Jews, ib. 21870. Relief in. See Jewish Board of Guardians (Man- chester). Mansion House—House property, propinquity to, in- creasing value of, Lewis Solomon 18142. Mansion House Committee—Sir Samuel Montagu went to Lemberg in 1882, to help and distribute perse- cuted Jews, and send them to America, Montagu 16796. Mansion House Council on the Dwellings of the Poor : Referred to, Hodge- 8028. Mode in which Committees of Council work, Hodge 8032. Overcrowding, how dealt with by Bethnal Green branch committee, ib. 8144. Mantle-making Trade—Is the most important of the trades introduced by aliens ; present condition of the trade is very bad, Z. Solomons 3088-3069. Manufacture—Cotton Manufacture introduced into England by aliens, W. J. C. Moens 23180. Markets : Watney Street, injury caused to, by establishment by aliens of markets in side streets, Barrett 2250; Silver 2628. Foreign costers in Samuel Street alleged to set certain police regulations at defiance; suggestion that this is due to bribery, ib. 2665-2674,2847-2856. Marmite Food Extract Company—Introduced from abroad by a German ; now working in Burton-on-Trent, Bwrlin 20328. Marriage between Christians and Jews : Orthodox-Russo-Jewish immigrants regard inter- marriage with English as contamination; they do not blend with the native population, but remain a race apart, A. White 332-333, 1057-1058, 1064, 1136-1151. Are usually followed by separation or by conversion, Mr. B. 3732-3739. Marriage Rate—Estimate of, amongst Jews, Joseph 16016. Marylebone—Proportion of foreigners in, Emanuel 16601. Master Bakers' Association—East London Bakers* Union break away from, Roth 21905. Maternal Care—Of Jewish women causes low infantile mortality in Liverpool, Hope 21412. May Laws of 1881 in Russia : Evans-Gordon 13349. Short summary of, A. White 347. Caused increase in immigration into United Kingdom from Russia, II. L. Smith 172-173. Enforcement of, has not solved Jewish question in Russia, A. White 345. Cause of large number of applications in 1882, Joseph 15926. Cause and commencement of Jewish emigration from Russia, Greenberg 17092. Mazzini—Influence of, seen in inter-marriage with natives,. Canney 12676. Means of Alien Immigrants. (See also Appendix, pp.. 76-78): Cohen 15277, 15444. Statistics of, collected by officers of Customs at Port of London, Hawkey 845-846, 858-870, 1311-1357, 1417-1419. Foreigners generally come over without money, Mr. A. 3496-3498, 3546. ''Greeners" now seldom arrive without having some 5 or 10 roubles in their possession, Mr. B* 3583-3586. Medical Examination of Aliens : Aliens arriving should be medically examined and the physically unfit excluded, A. White 936. Present practice as to medical examination of aliens- arriving at London, Hawkey 1381-1406. Were aliens arriving in the River Thames medically examined, cases of granular ophthalmia would be found among them, Tyrrell 3686. Aliens should be excluded if diseased or wanting in physique, Z. Solomons 3201-3205. Admission of aliens found on arrival to be suffering from disease, Murphy 4918, 4990-5028, 5131-5135. Incoming Aliens : Physical condition, B. R. Bygate 5929. Health on arrival, H. Williams 6113. Condition of immigrants' persons and clothing, ib. 6115. Supervision of " Boarding Medical Officer," results as regards German ships, ib. 6149. Extension of powers of " Boarding Medical Officer " imperative, ib. 7019. Local Government Board regulations as to- inspection of ships carrying passengers, ib. 7084. Inspection discontinued in 1896, reason for sa doing, ib. 7085. Of immigrants desirable, Sykes 13333. Of aliens on the Continent, Landau 16302. Of aliens on the Continent; difference of, in respect to aliens for America and for England, Landau 16344-16359. Of aliens for America very rigid on the Continent, ib„ 16357. At Libau is very slight, ib. 16363. Of transmigrants, in Liverpool, Hope 21469, 21532. At port of embarkation as a condition of admission,, desirable, Harris 21665. Of transmigrants in Liverpool by (a) shipping com- panies' doctor, (b) Board of Trade doctor, Eddis- 21713. At Rotterdam, ib, 21713 (a). Board of Trade medical officer's power t© detain persons desiring to proceed to America, H. L„ Smith 22633. Medical examination of all alien immigrants emi- grating from British ports to ports out of Europe by Board of Trade officers, A. G. Chalmers 22S28,. 22857. 6144.38 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Medical Officers of Health—London County Council pays half the salary of each medical officer, the local authority the other half, J. Lithiby 23521. Medical Relief—Largest form of relief granted to foreigners, Cohen 15389. Memel—See Boot and Shoe Trade. Mendelsohn, Mr.—Description of, as to the insanitary conditions of the fur trade, Vaughan 13190. Mercers' Estate (Stepney)—Payment of key-money not allowed, Silver 2620-2623. Merchant Shipping Act, 1894 : Particulars as to emigration and immigration obtained by Board of Trade under, H. L. Smith 47-60. Steerage emigrants, provisions respecting quarters for, H. Williams 6176. Penalties for infringement of, by masters of vessels, ib. 6176. Gives no power to deal with foreign ships from Europe, H. L. Smith, 22539. Medical examination at Liverpool of alien immigrants under Section 306 of Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, H. L. Smith 22633. Metropolitan Boroughs—Alien pauperism of, H. L. Smith 22125-22191. Middleman—In shoe trade, position of, Amstell 13391. Middlesex Street—Fowls cut up in portions and sold by costermongers, Lyons 19893. Migration from East End : Native population displaced by aliens migrating to Ilford, Forest Gate, and Leytonstone, Rev. A. E. Dalton 10216. Of workmen outside Stepney, due to improved travelling accommodation, Joseph 15762. Migration into Towns—Influence of, on housing pro- blem, Waimer 5282 ; Emanuel 16632. Mikvahs—Are ritual baths, compulsory amongst Jews, Landau 16298. Mile End Old Town : Is one of the four sanitary areas of the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, Murphy 3913, 3914. Ratio borne by foreign to total population in 1891 and 1901, ib. 3917. .Statistics of overcrowding as shown by census enumerations of 1891 and 1901, ib. 3926-3948. Yital statistics, ib. 3949-3962. Births, excess over deaths, E. Harper 11486. Rents, increased, ib. 11506. Efficiency of sanitary authorities in, Evans 11736. .Number of inhabited houses in, increased up to 1881> remained stationary for 10 years, then commenced to decrease, Gordon 17677. Workshops in, more overcrowded than those in Soho, Dr. W. H. Hamer 17965. Sanitary condition and administration of, influence * of alien immigrants on, ib. 17968. Numbers of Russian and Polish immigrants in 1894 in, ib. 17968. Bye-laws against overcrowding in, not generally enforced owing to inadequate staff of inspectors, ib. 17968, 17971. Results of sanitary inspection in 1894, compared with Camberwell, Plumstead, and St. Pancras in 1897-98, ib. 17971. Table showing result of sanitary inspection of houses, ib. 17971. Further explanation of, ib. 17974-89, 18023-32. Xess overcrowded in 1894 than Kensington (1899), St. Pancras (1898), Lambeth (1895), ib. 17993. Dr. Hamer, list of houses visited by, ib. 18136. ,, Deal Street School has a large proportion of Jewish children, Bawden 18867, 18874, 18876. Military Service in Eastern Europe—Evans Gordon 13349v Military Service in Russia—Inability of Jews to rise in, Finn 20264. Milk Trade—Duboski's, an English company supplies 75 per cent, of their milk to foreigners, Emanuel 16625,; Miners (Foreign) : Action of Scottish Miners' Federation with reference to, „Pinto 20949. In Lanarkshire: Have proved themselves competent and amen- able to instructions, Baird 21117. No arrangement exists on the part of the coal owners for bringing, to this country, ib. 21128.: Whence they come and port they arrive at, ibt 21130. Action of, from arrival until they become skilled^ ib. 21134. Keep together, ib. 21140. Habits of, sanitary, ib. 21142. Belong to the trades union, ib. 21146. Introduction of labour of, gradual, ib. 21149. Have not displaced British labour, ib. 21152. Introduction of, objected to by trades unions* ib. 21159. Ignorance of language, how dealt with, ib* 21172: Are mostly Roman Catholics, ib. 21194. Mines : Number of working days in, in Lanarkshire, Baird 21188. Number of working days in, in Fifeshire and Ayrshire, ib. 21191. Mines Act, 1887—Regulates period in which a miner becomes skilled, and can work by himself, ib. 21119* 21138. Mines (Lanarkshire)—Proportion of aliens employed in, to British, in 1902, ib. 21122. Mines (Motherwell)—Number employed in, Lumsden 14473. Mines Regulation Act—Constant evasion of, Lumsden 14517, 14541. Missionaries—Amongst Jews; their influence, Cohen 15727. Model Dwellings : Cannot be dealt with under bye-laws as a lodging- house, S. Murphy 4020 ; D. L. Thomas 5589. Stepney Green, erection of, Johnson 8561. Howard's Buildings, English tenants, W. A. Rose 9094. Metropolitan Buildings, English tenants, ib. 9094. College Buildings, English tenants, ib. 9094. Wentworth Mansions and Davis' Mansions, foreign tenants, ib. 9094. Preston Buildings, English tenants, 9094; Buck Street Buildings, foreign tenants, ib. 9094. Booth Street Buildings, foreign tenants, ib. 9094, Stepney Green dwellings, more people housed than were displaced by building, Rev. A. E.\Dalton 10201. Erection of model dwellings the best remedy for over- crowding, Mather 10364. Model dwellings erected largely by Jews as a specula- tion, ib. 10370. Erection of model dwellings in East End would enable workers to live near working places, ib. 10412. Average accommodation in block dwellings, J. Brown 11411. Tenants taking in lodgers immediately dismissed, ib. 11419. In Manchester, built by Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company, entirely occupied by aliens, Gilmour 21223, 21296. Rents of, ib. 21224. " Modern Jew," The—Reference to book published under this title, A. White 330. Money-lending : Desirability of ascertaining proportion of alien immi- grants among registered money-lenders, A. White 388. Suggestion that money-lending interest in this country is largely in hands of descendants of alien immi- grants, ib. 1282; and that leaders of Jewish community should be asked to take action to pre- vent the immigration of alien Jewish usurers, ib. 1283-1290.INDEX, 37 Morality : Of East End has greatly improved, Harris 21662. ^Mortality : Infantile : Statistics of, in Stepney; cause of lowness of, Murphy 3960; D. L. Thomas 5787. Amongst Jews higher than amongst * others, 15970. 15973. Figures, ib. 15973. Emanuel 16761. Very low amongst Jews, Greenberg 17118. Moses and Son^—Introduced cheap clothing in the retail trade ; abolishing second-hand clothing, Montagu 16830. -Motza Relief—Number of cases relieved by, from 1893 || to 1902, showing diminution, Emanuel 16607. - Municipal Housing : From a social economy point of view, a mistake, Joseph 16218. Would relieve situation if houses were built which could be let at very low rents, as in Glasgow and Liverpool, Lewis 17394. "Mutual Insurance Association of Scotch Coal- owners, Baird 21111. N. -Name, Change of : Common amongst criminals, McConnell 12702,12753 ; Hayer 13028. By Jewish aliens in Holborn district, Birch 14815. By aliens in criminal cases, but not overcrowding cases, Dickinson 14923. Necessary on Continent to obtain a ticket by the English lines, Landau 16412. -Name, Concealment of—Many motives for, McConnell 12806. . Names—Anglicisation of : Practice prevailing among alien immigrants of changing name from foreign to English obliterates the alien origin ; effect of this on Census enumeration, A. White 421 ; Macleod 584-589. ■ Alien Jews change their names and pose as English people, Brown 2426-2430, 2453-2455, 2471-2476. Instances in Stepney, S. White 7681-7685 ; R. Parlces 8727 ; J. Francis 8844. INantes, Edict of—Date of, W. J. C. Moens 23087. .National Amalgamated Furnishing Trades Associa- tion : Membership and constitution of, J. O' Grady 13965. Has a Jewish branch in London and one in Man- chester, ib. 13968. Fixed minimum rate of, and hours per week, ib. 13970. Strongly object to 44 greeners," ib. 14014. Regulations of, broken by employers of alien labour, ib. 14025. Does not object to alien skilled labour, ib. 14058. . National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives in Leeds: Membership of, Bialofski 15090. Consists chiefly of English and a few Jews, ib. 15094» ^National Vigilance Association : Statement of the Secretary (Mr. Coote) respecting foreign women contradicted, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17900. See Coote. "-'.Natives : Take work without knowing how much they will be paid for it, Evans 11777. Often accept low wages, ib. 11786-7. Do not bargain, and therefore do not get such good pay for their work as aliens, ib. 12143. Overcrowding, worse offenders in the matter of, than aliens, Dr. Hamer 18112-18121. . Rowdiness and insobriety of, at holiday seasons and at other -times, at Bethnal Green, Captain Denniss 18270. Natives— continued. Prejudice against foreigners fostered by inflamma- tory speeches and articles in the Press, Ward 18312. Workmen in various trades move out of a district to be near their work, instances of, T. E. Williams 18496. Voluntarily leave the East End to live outside London, unless kept there by their work, ib. 18498; L Better class of, leaving East End districts cause of loss to tradesmen, ib. 18501. High rents and overcrowding ; effect on, ib. 18502-8? Poorer class not thinking for themselves are easily led by others, ib. 18509, 18634-39. Keep their shops open in East Stepney seven days a week, ib. 18521. Workmen less reliable than aliens, Abrahams 18899.^ Derive benefit from manufactures created or im- proved by foreigners, ib. 18962. Numbers of Christian and Jewish employed in ladies? tailoring by Jews, Cohen 18968. Displacement of: In East End, Jewish element not causing, Mrsi L. A. Levy 17899. Aliens offering higher rents cause of, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18237-38. Aliens not causing, T. E. Williams 18496-501,- 18540. Leicester employs only, no aliens, Weber 19306.- Receive better wages than foreigners in boot and shoe trade, ib. 19303. Work better than aliens, ib. 19306. Home work still done in East End by, ib. 19370, Clickers in boot and shoe trade must be, ib. 19392,' 19398, 19400. More skilful at machinery, ib. 19543. Objection of, to sub-division of labour, Wright 19664.1 Prefer working in West End shops to tailoring, ibj 19671. Scarcity of skilled workers for tailoring among, ib: 19671, 19699, 19706. Prejudice of, against working with aliens in tailoring,- ib. 19767. Naturalisation : Absence of desire to become naturalised British subjects on part of aliens at East End of London,- Silver 2676-2679, 2756-2764. Laws of, should be made easier, Greenberg 17105. Desire of aliens for, checked by excessive fees; educational test desirable, Lewis 17361. Jews are very anxious to obtain, Gordon 17613. Aliens very anxious to obtain, desirability of reducing fee, Pinto 20890. Desire of Jews for; steps taken by Jewish Tailors'' Union to facilitate, Policoff 21052. Naturalisation Societies : Formation of, amongst aliens, and procedure, Lewis 17363 ; Gordon 17613. In Glasgow, Pinto 20894. Netherlands Steamship Company : Bulk of third class passengers Russian and Polish immigrants, F. W. Chambers 23392. Company takes every precaution against carrying passengers having disease, or otherwise objection- able, ib. 23403. Newcastle—Number of Jewish aliens relieved in, by Jewish Board of Guardians, 1897-1901 inclusive, Emanuel 16605. New York : Overcrowding in, worse than in London, Joseph 15890. Congestion in the Bowery or Jewish quarter, Montagu 16934. Number of Jews in, Greenberg 17092. " New York Herald "—Comments of, on alien immi- gration into the United States, Cohen 15685. Northampton : State of trade unionism (Boot and Shoe), F. & Grady 13598. Alien immigrants' settlement before Reformation, W. J. C. Moens 23071. Index.38 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Norwich : Alien immigrants' settlement before Reformation, W. J. G. Moens 23071. Settlement in 1569 of Dutch and Walloon immigrants, ib. 23135. Book of orders for regulation of aliens' work, ib. 23136, 23174. Notices—"'No English Need Apply " : Displayed on houses to let at East End of London, Q. Brown 2406-2414 ; Belcher 4396-4398. Were common about two years ago, but have dis- appeared in consequence of agitation against them, G. Brown 2463-2465. Notting Hill—Jewish colony growing in, Montagu 16908. Notting Hill, Portland Road—Overcrowding in fur- nished rooms, Dr. Harrier 18034-37. Nuisances : Abatement of, in one street leads to nuisance in another, D. L. Thomas 5560-5566. Definition of term according to Public Health Act, 1891, F. Mead 10558. Deficient sanitary arrangements leading to charges of committing nuisances, ib. 10881. Abatement of, by notices under Public Health Act, Dickinson 14848. O; Occupations—Of alien applicants to the Jewish Board of Guardians in 1902, Cohen 15314. Overcrowding : Russian Jew's capacity for, a bounty upon his com- petitive value when he arrives in this country, A. White 345-346. Statistics of, in London, as shown by Census returns, MacLeod 594-639 ; Murphy 3926-3948. Diminution In number of houses in Whitechapel, MacLeod 672-676, 681; A. White 1070-1078. Summary of causes of, as given in London County Council's book on Housing Question, A. White 1079-1081. Existence of, in agricultural districts in Dorsetshire and Wiltshire, ib. 1293. Efforts made by London County Council to diminish, in East End of London, nullified by influx of aliens, A. T. Williams 1604-1621; D. L. Thomas 5660. Stepney the only district in London more over- crowded in 1901 than in 1891, A. T. Williams 1690-1697. Overcrowding at East End of London largely due to alien immigration, A. White 391-393, 466, 1014, 1027-1028; Barrett 2146; G. Brown 2483 ; Silver 2720, 2795, 2867, 2878 ; Loane 4669, 4693 ; Murphy 4765. Cannot be dealt with while alien influx continues, Barrett 2290, 2369; Silver 2858-2867; Belcher 4302-4303, 4390, 4404. High rents due to, A. T0 Williams 1649 ; G. Brown 2461-2470, 2477-2478; Silver 2624, 2735-2741; Murphy 4919-4920. Magistrates reluctant to enforce law against, owing to lack of housing accommodation, A. T. Williams 1652; Barrett 2245-2247, 2290- 2291 ; Silver 2789 ; Murphy 4880. They will not convict in cases where the over- crowding is in one family, Loane 4624. Their leniency possibly due to sympathy with the overcrowded people, Murphy 4952-4976. . Instances of: ten persons living in one small room, passage in same house let as living room, whole house in a most filthy state ; in another house a small front room used as a shop and also as a bed- room for three men and three women, A. T. Wil- liams 1730; Onion 2514-2516; other cases, ib. 2516-2521; Z. Solomons 3045-3047 ; Mr. A. 3515 ; Belcher 4162 - 4190, 4244 - 4263, 4275 - 4279 ; Loane 4561-4572, 4578. Difficulty experienced by local authorities in dealing with, A. T. Williams 1731-1732; Barrett 2128- .2138; Silver 2624-2627, 2709. Overcrowding—continued. Enforcement of law relating to, in East London,;, would result in a large number of people being driven into the street, Barrett 2139; Belcher 4402- 4403. Lodgers taken by families having only one room, Barrett 2143-2145. ^liens living in overcrowded conditions do not pay their fair share of rates, Silver 2646. Overcrowding conducive to gross immorality, Silver 2627. Could be dealt with under present laws were it not* accentuated by alien immigration, ib. 2734, 2746. Meaning of term " overcrowding " as used in Census reports, Murphy 3927. Is not to be discovered by day visits, and is probably , not sufficiently gauged in London, ib. 3968. Law dealing with: (a) As a nuisance, ib. 3973-3981. (b) Under bye-laws for houses let as lodgings,' ib. 3981-4065. Worst kind of, ib. 4035-4036. Amount of, now existing ought not to be tolerated ib. 4113. Could be reduced by systematic application of the law, ib. 4102-4107, 4827-4855, 4948-4951. Would be practically non-existent in Whitechapel had the sanitary authority been able to register all the tenement houses and to employ a sufficient staff of inspectors to inspect them, Loane 4584— 4585 ; Murphy 5155. House accommodation for ejected persons must be provided outside the Metropolitan area, ib. 4664. Housing problem in Whitechapel an immense one from fact of natural increase alone, Loane 4682. Were the bye-laws steadily and systematically enforced people would find their own accommoda- tion, Murphy 4827. Legal proceedings in cases of overcrowding should be taken against the person who receives the rack rent, Silver 2879 ; Loane 4629-4641. The owner of every house should be registered, ib: 4642, 4649-4658. Can only be checked by great increase of sanitary inspectors, Waimer 5268-5269. Method of procedure under Public Health Act to abate the nuisance, D. L. Thomas 5484. Difficulty of following up immediately magistrate's • decision, ib. 5488. Accentuated in Stepney by influx of aliens, ib. 5644-5648, 5652, 5664-5665, 5693, 5736-5739. In the Public Health Act and under bye-laws, different to overcrowding in the London County Council statement; nature of difference, ib. 5652. Increase in the number of persons living in one room implies increase of poverty, ib. 5655. Causes great increase of rents, ib. 5661-5663. Activity of local authorities greater in Stepney than Islington, or any other district of London, ibi 5747-5750. Overcrowding greater in 1902 than 1901, in spit© of local authorities' activity, ib. 5754-5755. When abated by means of notices, no further action necessary, ib. 5758. Moral effects of, B. R. Rygate 5933. Mode of dealing with, ib. 5935. Area increasing, ib. 5969. St. George-in-the-East, steps taken to solve over- crowding problem, ib, 5982. Extension of building area only real remedy, ib, 5987. Distinction between overcrowding due to increase of families and that caused by reception of lodgers, ib. 5963. Houses formerly occupied by one English family now occupied by several alien families, ib. 6012. Sanitary Committee winking at overcrowding by members of one family, ib. 6015. Dissemination of Jewish immigrants to various parts of United Kingdom proposed remedy for, T. Herzl 6255. Instance in Stepney of aliens sleeping in relays on premises, Garrett 6573. Overcrowding not confined to alien population,. J. Foot 6577.INDEX. 39 overcrowding— Key-money inducing overcrowding, J. Foot 6579. Existing laws inadequate to deal with, ib. 6579. Procedure by sanitary inspectors in cases of, ib. 6583. Suggested alterations rendering immediate action possible, ib. 6593. Instances in Betlinal Green, ib. 6605. Extract from Report of Chief Sanitary Inspector of Bethnal Green on cases of eviction consequent on overcrowding, ib. 6602, 6605. House-room decreasing while population increases, ib. 6620a \ Overcrowding can only be deaii; with in Bethnal Green by stopping alien immigration, ib. 6689. I Districts surrounding Bethnal Green becoming equally overcrowded, ib. 6693. ; Housing accommodation quite inadequate for even normal East End population, ib. 6710. ' New buildings, aliens pushing British population out of, ib. 6712. House accommodation must keep pace with increase of population, ib. 6736. Overcrowding penalty incurred by tenant of room, difficulty of enforcing, ib. 6854. Sanitary inspectors should have absolute power of entry to registered lodging-houses, ib. 6932. Number of inmates per house should be registered, • and penalty enforced for exceeding, ib. 6934. . .j Temporary shelter for persons driven out by sanitary authority required, ib. 6939. Overcrowding, diminution, measures leading to, suggested, D. L. Thomas 7201-7215. Overcrowding, the cause of high rents, Hodge 8048, 8049, 8051. East End would be overcrowded even without alien population, ib. 8058-8069. Annual budget of house accommodation and of people to be housed suggested, ib. 8086. | Central authority should deal with housing question for whole of London, ib. 8164, 8181. Migration from country of agricultural labourers a cause of East End overcrowding, ib. 8201. Not confined to London or towns only, much over- crowding in villages, ib. 8214. Mann and Crossman's brewery, extension of, number of houses pulled down for, Johnson 8600. •Every room now is workshop, living room, and bed- room, Tyler 8628. •Jubilee Street, Stepney, five families living in back room and cellar, W. Walker 8970. : Bakers, alien, overcrowding in houses and bakeries, 8. J. Pearce 8989. 'Twenty-five people living in one room in Stepney, ib. 8995. Mill Street, Spitalfields, family living in cellar, Shead I 9054. Houses pulled down to make room for erection of Board schools, a factor in overcrowding, ib. 9064; >•; Davies 9840 ; Eck 10097; Mather 10384. Necessity of living near work causing overcrowding in Stepney, W. A. Rose 9099, 9179-9183. Building by local authorities of barrack buildings would relieve overcrowding, ib. 9198. : St. George-in-the-East, instances of overcrowding, J. Pam 9305-9311. . • Causing immorality, ib. 9311. If overcrowding were not possible, rents would not be raised, ib. 9334-9338. Bethnal Green, instance of,' Holditch 9382. Instance in Whitechapel, Ayres 9408. Inspection quite insufficient, female inspectors needed, ib. 9446. Spitalfields, four men and six women sleep in one room, Rev. W. H. Davies 9714, "Spitalfields, Dorset Street area, English as over- crowded as aliens, ib. 9728, 9729. Workmen's houses pulled down to make room for warehouses, overcrowding caused by, as people must live near work, ib. 9832. Overcrowding causing high rents, aliens live as no . English will, ib. 9833-9837 ; Rev H. V. Eck 10081. Replacing one-storey houses by model dwellings the only remedy, 8. Mather 10364. Aliens might be put into country villages, thus relieving congestion in London, ib. 10376. .Advocated by Jewish Board of Guardians, ib. 10428. Overcrowding—continued. Government declaring certain places " congested districts," to which aliens not admitted, would prevent overcrowding in towns, ib. 10444. Public Health Act, 1891, magistrates' power under, concerning overcrowding, misapprehension of,' F. Mead 10554. Night visits of sanitary inspector necessary to stop overcrowding, ib. 10619. Enforcing of provisions of Public Health Act against overcrowding should not be too harsh at first, ib. 10823. Unforcing of these provisions would deter intending alien immigrants from coming to this country, oh: 10833. Overcrowding and high rents reflect on each other, J. Brown 11071. Instance of overcrowding among English in Farring- don Street 30 years ago, ib. 11078. Notting Dale, high death rate among children owing to overcrowding, ib. 11085. Overcrowding due to natural increase of families, difficulty of dealing with, ib. 11093. Present increased cost of building a remote cause of overcrowding, ib. 11094. Law against, strong enough to prevent if enforced, ib. 11109. Necessity of living near work obviated by cheap fares, ib. 11245. Migration of native population from country place to London causing overcrowding, ib. 11253. Suggested aid from municipal authorities for housing poor, ib. 11276. Population of London, increase during 50 years, ib. 11280. Influx of alien immigrants into neighbourhood causes rents to be raised, and tenants, in order to pay increased rent, overcrowd houses with lodgers, E. Harper 11563. Tables relating to overcrowding, ib. 10911-10991, 11482-11632. Overcrowding, key-money, and raising of rents co-incident, ib. 11578. Number of workshops in Stepney a great cause of overcrowding and of alien immigration, H. Evans 11657. Workshops must be near City, hence overcrowding, ib. 11659. Natives not affected by City traders' demands, therefore aliens, willing to pay highly for accom- modation near City, oust the natives, ib. 11659. Displacement of population owing to the clearing of entire districts of dwelling -houses for the erection of warehouses, one cause of overcrowding else- where, ib, 11659. Advisability of restricting further erection of small workshops as a cure for, ib. 11906, 11907, 11911. A growing evil in East End, due to the inaction of the sanitary authorities, ib. 11736. Most acute in St. George's and Whitechapel, ib. 11736. Power of factory inspector to proceed against occu- piers for overcrowding during overtime has been lost under new Act, ib. 11737-11739. Failure of new Factory Act to prevent, during over- time, ib. 11742. Mostly prevails at night after nine o'clock, when local officers have no power of entry, ib. 11742. By Italians in certain periods of the year, in Fins bury, Newman 12503. In Finsbury is being remedied by enforcement of the law, ib. 12547. Present machinery is ample to prevent, Haden Corser 12870. Difficulty of enforcing the law, ib. 12900. Action of magistrate in respect to, in Worship Street Police Court, ib. 12924. Greater than at present before the passing of Lodging House Act, ib. 12930. Could be checked by enforcement of the law all over the police district, and not by local authorities, ih 12939. No duty of a magistrate to enter into the question, what becomes of people moved out, ib. 12957. Great in Cleveland Street district through number of houses of ill-fame, Walters 13077.40 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Overcrowding—continued. In St. Pancras, Sykes 13327. What constitutes, from the London County Council point of view, Harper 13937. Decreased in Westminster since 1891, ib. 13939. Decreased in St. Pancras since 1891, ib. 13941. Decreased in Holborn and Finsbury since 1891, ib; 13941. Diminished by the Housing of the Working Classes Act, ib. 13942. Causes high rents, L. Lyons 14221. In Leeds is great; action of authorities, Marston 14340, 14394. In Leeds largely due to alien immigration, ib. 14404 ; Gonnellan 15020 ; 'Bialofshi 15118. In Holborn due to inactive policy of borough council, Birch 14800, 14823, 14832. Causes of, in the East of London, Dickinson 14846. In the East End largely due to temporarily accom- modating aliens in transit, ib. 14846. How remedied, and to what extent, by notices under Public Health Act, ib. 14848. Procedure of Public Health Act to abate, ib. 14848. House may be closed, upon two convictions within a period of three months ; time too short, ib. 14860. Number of nuisances abated, and reason for inflicting one shilling fine, ib. 14860, 14885. Necessity of notice to prevent by public authority should be done away with, ib. 14871. Under bye-laws is a penal offence, ib. 14877. Order of abatement may be in case of a dwelling, but not of a workshop, ib. 14883. If lodger causes, he should be proceeded against first, ib. 14891. Proceedings under bye-laws to check, in Stepney, ib. 14893. Definition of, in bye-laws, ib. 14896. In Stepney, authorities active in abating, ib. 14902. Cases of, detected by Inspector of the Sanitary Committee of the Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15402. Is crux of alien question, ib. 15574. In East End due to laxity in the administration of the law since 1891, ib. 15725. Views on, Joseph 15785. In industrial centres of London, due to the necessity of living near work, ib. 15797. In London: how to meet the evil, ib. 15798. To be remedied by the removal of factories, with their workers, out of London, ib. 15798. Public Health (London Act) and the bye-laws are sufficiently strong to prevent, if enforced, ib. 15843 ; Greenberg 17188 ; Landau 16295. In New York worse than in London, Joseph 15890. Greater in parts of Camberwell than in Stepney, ib. 16140. Action of London County Council has provided accommodation in London for about 32,000 persons, but quite inadequate, ib. 16216. In East London; Dr. Hamer's report on, ib. 16258. In East London: Report of Mr. Harper, of the London County Council, ib. 16258. In East End the result of natural causes, Landau 16293. In Bethnal Green, not due to increase of population, cause of, Emanuel 16601. In Stepney not only due to foreigners, ib. 16601. Land available in London to house 8J million persons in 1900, ib. 16601. May be remedied in East End by utilising ground now occupied by two-storeyed houses, ib. 16601. Causes and exaggeration of, in East End; proportion of population overcrowded according to census, ib. 16632. Alien immigration contributory to, ib. 16635. In the East End due to the substitution of ware- houses for residences, ib. 16649. Jewish Dispersion Committee waiting to see if legislation will deal with, Montagu 16781. In New York, in the Bowery or Jewish quarter, ib: 16934, A law against, would give the necessary check to excessive immigration, ib. 16968. Creates immorality, ib. 17047. All concerned in a property should be made liable to be fined, ib. 17055. Overcrowding—continued. Should be a general lav/ against, ib. 17088. Notices should be circulated in Yiddish explaining its insanitary effects, Oreenberg 17108. In some parts of Stepney increasing, the tenants having a lower standard, Lewis 17255. In St. George-in-the-East existed before advent of Jews ; reports of Medical Officer of Health on, ib. 17262. Aliens show a lower standard in, ib. 17327. In Stepney staff of sanitary inspectors insufficient, ib. 17335. Law should be extended to make owner liable, ib. 17337, 17371. Considerable impression is being made on, in Stepney, ib. 17385. With sufficient staff powers at present existing are sufficient, ib. 17390. Has decreased in East London during the last 20 years, Barnett 17529. Less in East End, because standard is higher, but still largely exists, ib. 17561. The closing of a congested area by municipal - authority to check, is an impracticable idea; each case should be dealt with on its merits, ib. 17572. In Stepney due to causes anterior to the advent of the alien immigrant, Gordon 17630. Since 1881 any increase of population by immigration or excess of births bound to lead to, ib. 17637. In Stepney number of persons per inhabited house rapidly increasing from 1841 to 1851 ; from 1851 to 1881 remaining on a level; from 1881 again rapidly increasing, ib. 17669. Does not occur in Peabody Buildings in White- chapel, ib. 17717. Stepney Borough Council will be able to cope with; require more inspectors, ib. 17767. Remissness of local authorities a contributory cause of, ib. 17776. < Decentralisation would prevent, ib. 17801. In St. Pancras, where alien population is small, Prag 17829. As compared with that of Stepney, ib. 17838. In Glasgow, without aliens contributing to, ib. 17848. Few genuine cases of, among foreign Jews in East End, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17899. Not more serious in East End now than, during the last 20 years, ib. 17920, 17937-43,17956,17962. Workshops in Whitechapel and Mile End compared to those in Soho as regards, Dr. W. H. Hamer 17965.- Bye-law against, not generally enforced in 1896 in East End, ib. 17968. Inadequacy of existing number of inspectors to enforce bye-laws as regards, in Stepney, Lime- house, St. George-in-the-East, Mile End Old Town and Whitechapel, ib. 17968, 17971, 18040, 18043. Table showing comparative number of cases per 100 ■ houses in various districts, ib. 17971. Further explanations of, ib. 17974-17989, 18023- 18032. Cases of, more frequent in Kensington (1899), St. Pancras (1898), Lambeth (1895), than in Mile End Old Town and Whitechapel (1894), ib. 17993. (St. Pancras) Census definition of, compared with bye-law definition, ib. 17996. Difference of standard, ib. 17997-18001, Kensington common lodging-houses, sanitary con- ditions compare favourably with those in tene- mented houses, owing to bye-laws against, being strictly enforced, ib. 18002. Whitechapel and Mile End practically the same now as in 1894 as regards, ib. 18006. Suggestions for enabling authorities to deal with, ib. 18009-18015. More cases of, amongst English than amongst foreigners, ib. 18033. Portland Road, Notting Hill; bad cases of, in furnished rooms, ib. 18034-18037. Notices to abate, practically ineffectual, ib. 18056- 18058. Systematic inspection and larger staff of inspectors required to abate, ib. 18059-18060. Stepney worse than any other district in London in respect of, ib. 18072.INDEX; 41 Overcrowding—continued, Kensington less affected than East End; confined to groups of streets in a comparatively small area, ib. 18073-18075. Southwark, congested areas in, ib. 18076. St. Pancras more overcrowded of late years, ib. 18101-18102. Natives worse offenders than aliens in the matter of, ib. 18112-18121. Stepney; demolitions of private houses and the erection of business premises causing, Lewis Solomon 18181-18182, 18209. Erection of warehouses and workshops in Bethnal Green causes, in remaining houses, W; Hi Ward 18312. In East End due to immigration and high rents, Bruce 18329, 18346, 18377. Sudden measures to abate, not advisable, ih 18329- 18332. Area of, becoming more widely spread in White- chapel, ib. 18343. Scheduling all houses irrespective of their value sug- gested as preventive of, ib. 18356-18357, 18365. Present law against, if strictly enforced, sufficient to meet difficulty, ib. 18361. Means taken by London County Council to prevent, in block dwellings, ib. 18366. Extent of, over-estimated in St. George's; result of house-to-house survey, T. E. Williams 18472-18492. Municipal Borough of Stepney instituting prosecutions for, ib. 18524. In Reading not caused mainly by Jews, Bull 20468. In West London not attributable to foreigners, Fersht 20668. Amongst foreign Jews in Glasgow does not exist, Pinto 20871. Amongst natives very great in Glasgow, ib. 20970. In Manchester caused by high rents, Gilmour 21214. In Manchester Sanitary Department is very active in checking, ib. 21320. In Liverpool, how dealt with, Hope 21421, 21499, 21514. Of aliens has increased rents in East End, Harris 21626. Police inspection desirable, ib. 21633. Greater among alien Jews than natives in Manchester, Niven 21750, 21773. In Manchester prosecutions have been few, ib. 21772. Statistics showing, in certain districts of Manchester, with reference to the different nationalities, ib. 21775, 21872 (Table B). How dealt with in Manchester, details connected with, ib. 21815. Not serious in the Borough of Holborn, Jones 21998. Recorded overcrowding of aliens in London in 16th and 17th centuries, W. J. G. Moens 23188. Stepney, increase in overcrowding in last 10 years, J. IAthiby 23412, 23518. High rents caused by and causing overcrowding, ib. 23419. Method taken to abate overcrowding, ib. 23420. Number of cases in which legal proceedings were taken, ib. 23420. House-to-house inspection, method of, and result, ib. 23421, 23426. Census standard of overcrowding, ib. 23422. Borough of Stepney bye-law standard of over- crowding, ib. 23429. Size of tenements occupied by certain number of families, ib. 23432. Fines inflicted in cases in which legal proceedings were taken, ib. 23433. Small fines for overcrowding, reason for inflicting,- ib. 23435. Prohibition and abatement orders, distinction between,1 ib. 23436. Law at present in force with regard to overcrowding sufficient, ib. 23440. Proposal to declare an overcrowded district a " con- gested area" would be extremely difficult to carry out, ib. 23471. Law, if strictly enforced, could do much to abate overcrowding, ib. 23473. Small number of intimations served to abate over- crowding infers that there is laxity in dealing with the question, ib. 23481, 23504. 6,144. Overcrowding—continued. Penalties should be inflicted on those responsible for overcrowding, ib. 23492. Person benefiting in money by allowing house to be overcrowded is the one to be prosecuted, ib. 23497w Oxford House : Philanthropic work of, J. Foot 6602 ; H. Hodge 8029. Church centre of social work among East End poor; Hodge 8029. Padrones—Have separate organisations for importing Italian lads, Canney 12690. Pahlen Commission (in Russia)—Statistics submitted to, and afterwards withdrawn, because they were favourable to Jews, A. White 345. Palestine : Jewish poor sent to, by Baron Hirsch's benefactions^ T. Herzl 6370. Jewish colonies in, ib. 6423. Paris Convention—Action in respect to the white slave traffic, Goote 12612. Parochial Relief (Including Medical)—Number of Russians and Poles in receipt of, in years 1899 and 1900, Gohen 15388. Passage Brokers—Method adopted by, in respect to transmigrants, H. L. Smith 22598. Passage Brokers (Foreign)—Relation of, to shipping companies, Eddis 21713. Passenger Lists, Nature of—H. L. Smith 47, 53-60v Passover Biscuits—Given to the poorest Jews, number distributed in 1900, 1901, and 1902, proving that pauperism has not increased, Montagu 16853. Passover Cakes—Distribution of, by the Jewish Board of Guardians in Manchester to inmates of workhouses and prisons, proves how few Jews are upon the rates or in prison, Isaacs 20792. Passport : Necessary to immigrants from Russia, Poland, and Roumania, if they come legitimately, Haden Gorser 12966. Easily procurable by undesirables with money, Landau 16305, 16529. Could be obtained in Russia by political offenders indirectly, ib. 16551. Difficulties of obtaining, in Poland and Russia, J. Somper 19127, 19132-37, 19222. From Russia, a translated copy of, Evans-Gordon 20566. Russian—Regulations, ib. 20568. Passport System : Adoption of, will be a burden on the honest working man, but no hindrance to professional criminals, Finn 20265. Impracticable to revive, Vincent 22419. Revival of, will result from qualification test at place of origin, Whatley 13844. Revival of, will result in reprisal, ib. 13848. Pauper : Construction of term depends upon circumstances in United States (evidence of Colonel Weber),- Greenberg 17097. Definition of, in America, in the Report of the Com- missioners of Immigration (1893), ib. 17097. Pauperism : Not increased by alien immigration, Gohen 15361. Increase of immigrants in 1902 over other years is not reflected on, ib. 15435. In London, Local Government Report showing number of foreigners in receipt of relief in 1899, 1900 and 1901, Emanuel 16602. Decrease in—Throughout England; throughout the Metropolis ; throughout Whitechapel Union, ib. 16607. F Ind xv42 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Pauperism continued. General—Table showing variations in relief given I' from 1884 to 1900 inclusive, showing a decrease • in actual number and proportion to population, , ib. 16609. . \ Decrease of, due to better administration in the East End, ib. 16709. Alien: Johnson 8560, 8586; Rose 9150; Brown 11031, 11041. \ Kosher meat provided by Whitechapel Board - of Guardians, Brown 11212. Strong disinclination of Jews to enter work- ( house, ib. 11216. Increasing amongst Italians in the Holborn district. Birch 14813. h Decrease in London and Manchester in 1901, Emanuel X. 16601. Table giving the number of foreigners in receipt of Poor Law relief in various provinical towns in 1899, 1900, 1901, ib. 16604. Decrease of, in London and in provinces, ib. 16606. Particulars in respect to relief given to aliens in Metropolitan unions, H. L. Smith 22125-22191. General remarks on, ib. 22125-22220. Of Stepney, ib. 22134. Of Bethnal Green, ib. 22139. , By nationalities, in metropolitan boroughs, ib. 22180. In the provinces, ib. 22192-22216. In the provinces by nationalities, ib. 22199. Peabody Buildings—No overcrowding in, tenants being a better class, Gordon 17717. Peabody Clearance—In South Ward of Whitechapel, conducted by Metropolitan Board of Works, dishoused a-larger number than it rehoused, ib. 17698. Pearl/ Alexander, Bankruptcy of—Onion 2502- 2510 ; A. T. Williams 2899. Pembrokeshire—Alien immigrants' settlement before Reformation, W. J. C. Moens 23071. Persecution in Eastern Europe—Evans-Gordon 13349? Phthisis : Usually prevalent in overcrowded districts, but death-rate from, found to be low in one overcrowded area occupied by aliens, Murphy 3966, 4886- i ; 4888. Opinion expressed that aliens found to be suffering from, on their arrival in this country should not be excluded, ib. 5016- 5017. 'See also Vital Statistics. Jews not immune from, D. L. Thomas 5796. Death rate from, high in Whitechapel, ib. 5801. ! Highest death rate from, in St. Pancras, SyJces 13326. f Death rate from, lower amongst Jews than natives, P Niven 21749. Causes of comparative immunity of Jews from, ib. 21753. Piece-work "Substituted for time work in the ready-made clothing trade in Glasgow, Pinto 20896. Machinists and pressers, and button-hole hands in Manchester work by, Policoff 21012. Pimlico Standard—Advisability of appointing special practical inspectors, Whatley 13761, 13775. Pinsk—Evans-Gordon 13349. Plumstead—Results of sanitary inspection in 1898 compared, with those for Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town in 1894. Dr. Hamer 17971. Poland—Originally the haven for persecuted Russian Jews until its partition, when migration began, Green- berg 17090. Poles: Large number employed in Lanarkshire Steel Works, Lumsden 14474. In Lanarkshire mines, paid at same tonnage rate 'ad English workmen, Baird 21118. Poles—continued. Accidents to, not more frequent than to English* Baird 21119. Who work in Lanarkshire mines are mostly Roman Catholics, ib. 21194. Natives working in Scotch mines are against the introduction of, Bonaldson 22099. Working in Scotch mines are not mixed with natives*. ib. 22120. Poles, Roman Catholic—Aliens in mines are chiefly,, Lumsden 14555 ; Pinto 20946 ; Bonaldson 22062. Poles and Lithuanians—In Manchester, separate from the Jews, chiefly Roman Catholics, Niven 21870. Poles and Russians : Employed in mines in Scotland, number of* Bonaldson 22040. Nature of occupation of, in mines in Scotland, ibt 22045. Capabilities of improvement of, ib. 22047. Police : Alleged bribery of, Silver 2669, 284B. Alien immigrants landing, police duties respecting^ B. Hyder 7379. H Division, boundaries of, Mulvaney 8224. Area, ib. 8228. Full strength of force, ib. 8322. No officer in H Division speaking German or Yiddish* ib. 8386-8393. German - speaking officers can be had if required,, ib. 8395, 8493. H Division, area covered by, moral condition to- day compared with that 10 years ago, ib. 8501- 8503. Alleged bribery of, ib. 8514. Bribery of, by costermongers does not prevail^ Davis 19934. Police Divisions—in Manchester, number of, Gilmour 21291. Political Criminals : Should not be excluded, Whatley 13862. Not undesirables, Landau 16546. Poll Tax : Aliens formerly paid this tax, re-imposition advo- cated, W. J. G. Moens 23202. Applicable to all, in America, Vincent 22449. Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter : Number of vessels carrying aliens met in one year by representative of, J. Somper 19051. Superintendent holds licences from English and foreign steamship companies to board vessels carrying aliens, ib. 19062. All aliens are received and cared for on arrival at irrespective of creed, ib. 19107. Number of aliens lodged at, ib. 19110. Out of 26,796 aliens only small percentage are retained at, not knowing what to do, ib. 19140. Aliens can only remain 14 days at, ib. 19156. All aliens are registered at, ib. 19189. Is a voluntary institution; can accommodate any number of aliens, ib. 19206, 19208. Officers from, meet alien immigrants on their arrival at Port of London, Hawkey 380-884, 1372-1376; Mr. B. 3588-3589. Agents of, assist newly-arrived immigrants to find sleeping accommodation, Belcher 4286-4287. Is a common lodging-house, and is registered as such, Murphy 4900. Can accommodate a limited number of men only, Murphy 4900. Responsibilities respecting alien immigrants under- taken by, unsatisfactory carrying out "of, H. Williams 6189. Committee in 1893 recommenced taking in Jewish immigrants, having in previous years refused them 1 shelter on account of their filthy state, ib. 7071. Pounded in 1885; its object, procedure of i^ authorities with reference to arrivals, how assists them, Landau 16271. 95 per cent, of immigrants into IJoiidon pass through, W. 16273. ,INDEX. 43 Poor Jews\. Temporary Shelter— M-r, fJ Number of immigrants passing through, 1896-1902, ^ $.16278. Expenses of, partly defrayed by shipping companies, ib. 16280. Does not provide "greener*4 labour, ib. 16285. Table A, showing comparative amounts of total ^ ; ; working expenses, and money paid by shipping . , companies for maintenance from November, 1892, to February, 1903, ib. 16309. ,,f -r:_ Table. B, showiiig number of inmates of, and number ' ; of those stated to be en route, ib. 16309. Number of alien immigrants passed through in 1902, ib. 16318. Out of 119,139 immigrants who arrived between sj. r 1891 and 1901, 27,000 were actually received into, ib. 16326. , ;1, Finds 95 per cent, of aliens on arrival are skilled i . workmen, ib. 16336. Alien immigrants are allowed to remain 14 days ljx, to procure money from abroad if without means, ib. 16392. ,, Procedure of, numbers assisted, and methods, ib, 16494. vPercentage of those passing through who have > passports, ib. 16526. Deal with aliens on arrival, Montagu 16904. Deal with, non-Jews, number of, in 1902, Gordon 17804. Poor Law : Medical relief, Whitechapel Union, aliens applying for, W, A. Rose 9113, 9117, 9150. , Pauper lunatic aliens, ib. 9113, 9117. Imbecile alien children, ib, 9113, 9117. , How well-to-do aliens make use of the rates, Dickinson 14956. , A man who becomes chargeable should be expelled, Joseph 16245. ; An insignificant amount of relief granted to Polish and Russian Jews, Emanuel 16634. Effect on, by alien immigrants very small in White- chapel, Harris 21652, 21660. Poplar—Ettrick Street, formerly composed of disorderly houses, now a respectable street, Rev. A. E. Dalton 10158. Population : Of London has increased out of proportion to l ... r increase of inhabited houses, Joseph 15793. Of Stepney still residential, because of high rents obtainable, Lewis 17229. In boroughs near the city has a tendency to decrease, ib. 17229. In Borough of Stepney, increasing in Whitechapel, St. George's and Mile End districts, which are becoming increasingly Jewish; but decreasing ; in Limehouse. which contains few Jews, ib. 17245, 17267. Of Stepney undergoing a considerable replacement, Jews taking houses vacated by natives,,$.17246. Tin western parts of Whitechapel consists, chiefly of English Jews, ib. 17246. Density of, in Stepney per acre, as compared with Southwark, Gordon 17629. Density of, increases in proportion to propinquity to City, ib. 17629. Jn-Stepney, number of persons per inhabited house constantly increasing since 1841, ib. 17668. Increase of, per inhabited house from due to erection bf block dwelling^, each being called ' ' a house, ib. 17670. Causes to which dispersal of? is due, ib. 17723. Stepney, equal numbers of British and foreign, Z. A. ■ L'ivy 17934."'1 1 -East End' (Spitalfields, etc.), density of per acre, Hamer 18076. - Southwark, density of per acre, ib. 18076. London, Lewis Solomon 18218. Of Glasgow; general, Jewish proportion very, small, Pinto 20858. r / - ^f^GlaSgdw, ib: 20859. ' • j Displacement of, due to changes in the character of the trades pursued in thi East End, Harris 21621. Of the Borough of Holbiorn, Jones 21980. 6144. Population (Alien) : In Westminster chiefly bespoke tailors, and restaur*- """ teurs, Harper 13908. Has not increased in South of London, or Fulham, or Hammersmith, ib. 13932. In London, annual increase of, due to arrivals and excess of births over deaths, Joseph 15753, 15791. In United Kingdom, increase of, in 1900 and 1901j Emanuel 16574. In the United Kingdom, annual increase from 1894 to 1901 inclusive, influence of death rate, Emanud 16574, 16584. Causes why, not dispersed equally with Christian^ e.g., character of industries pursued, ability to pay higher rents, Gordon 17726. In St. Pancras, percentage of, Prag, 17812. Tn Mile End and Whitechapel greater than in St, ^George's and Limehouse, Hamer 17994. Foreign element in Stepney facilitates enforcement of laws against overcrowding, ib. 18002. Increasing gradually in Sheffield, Wigram 20127. In West London most cosmopolitan, Fersht 20649. In Manchester Russians and Poles constitute the large majority relieved, Isaacs 20767. Of Scotland, Pinto 20860. In Liverpool, occupations of, character of, Hope 21459. Of the Borough of Holborn, Jones 21983. Analysis and distribution of, in Borough of Holborn, ib. 21991. Occupations of, in Borough of Holborn, ib. 21992. Increase of, according to census, not inconsistent with increase according to the Board of Trade, H. L. Smith 22221. In, foreign .countries, ib. 22528. Population (Jewish) : With increase of, improvement of habits, Barnett 17509. Of St. Pancras, number and percentage of, Prag 17815. In Christian Street, St. George's, Nugent 18806. In , Manchester much increased since 1882, Isaacs 20762. Of Glasgow, Pinto 20859. In Manchester including children, Gilmour 21265. Of Liverpool, Hope 21454. Number of, in Manchester, Niven 21762. Population, Distribution of : From London, should be encouraged by legislation, Joseph 15809. . V Inducements to be given to the erection of houses in the suburbs, ib. 15818. From London, by improved means of travelling, ib. 15818. Port of London : Number of vessels in one'1 year bringing aliens, Somper 19052. Transmigrants rarely holding, through tickets to , other ports, ib. 19067. Ports of Arrival—Any alteration of, to evade restrictive < measures would involve great expense to shipping companies, Cohen 15672. Poverty: Drives aliens to emigrate here, Joseph 15985. In Manchester has not increased in proportion to the growth of the Jewish population, Isaacs 20764. Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Act for—Over- crowding should be dealt with in, F. filead 10601. Prices : , > Output does not affect, Evans 11864. Long hours not caused by, ib. 12155-57. Prisoners: ' . Number of foreign prisoners in proportion to native, from 1898 to 1901, inclusive, Emanuel 16632. Proportion of, to natives in 1898, 1899, 1900, and 1901, ib. 16754. Prisons—Building of synagogues in. See Synagogues- F 244 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Prisons in Manchester—Jews in, very few, Isaacs 20799. "Problems op a Great City"—Reference to, A. White 329. ^Problems op Modern Industry,'- by Mr. Sidney Webb—Reference to, Evans 11840. ^Problems of Poverty," by John A. Hobson—Green- berg 17107. Proclaimed Areas: The Jewish Dispersion Committee would disseminate on arrival in the event of an area being closed, Montagu 16985. By legislation, ib. 16989. Producer—Consumer in shoe trade, Arnstdl 13456. Prosecutions—Beneficent result of, under Factory Act, Evans 11650, 11748. Prostitutes (Foreign) : Great number in Soho, A. White 997 ; Hayer 13001. Relative proportion compared to English, S. White 7664, 7670-7675. Increased number in Stepney and neighbourhood, Mulvaney, 8314-8318. Reason for increase in number of foreign prostitutes, ib. 8334. Causes leading to women becoming prostitutes, ib. 8336. Foreign prostitutes less disorderly than, English, ib. 8466, 8471. Poplar, many German-Jewish prostitutes in, Rev. < ] A.E. Dalton 10166-10169, 10209. Number charged during the year 1902, F. Head 10690. More shameless and persistent than English, ib. 10694. Should be excluded on arrival, J. Brown 11125. s, Rejected at American ports, Coote 12625. Easily distinguishable if foreign, Hayer 13037. Repatriation of, Bairstow 15184. Foreign women forming larger proportion of, than the English, statement by Mr. Coote, Secretary of the National Vigilance Society, contradicted, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17900-17910. Numbers coming over from abroad, ib. 17913-15, i 17918. Easily distinguishable on arrival, ib. 17916-17. If evidence sufficient, should not be admitted into the country, Fersht 20699, 20731. Very few foreign, in Manchester, GUmour 21277. Amendment of Vagrancy Act, 1898, caused large 1 exodus of, G. E. Henry 23607. Protected Labour—Not allowed on Sundays, Vaughan 13158. Protected Person—Difficulty in connection with pro- ceedings against, Vaughan 13136. Provinces—Alien pauperism in, H. L. Smith 22192- 22216. Public Health (London) Act : Procedure of, and cases against overcrowding under the Act from April to end of year 1890, in Stepney, D. L. Thomas 5493-5499. Number of cases during first five months, 1891, ib. 5499. | Powers conferred under, respecting inspection of passengers on in-coming ships, H. Williams 6121, 6995. Power of entry to premises under Act, J. Foot 6585. ! Prosecution under, of overcrowding by members of one family, ib. 6880. Procedure under, respecting insanitary ships, H. Williams 6998. Epidemic diseases, regulations relating to, ib. 7005- 7007. Sanitary authority, reference to, by sanitary officials ; j alteration in clauses of Act referring to, necessary, ib. 7024-7054. Stringent enforcing of, in East End useless, Hodge 8072-8076. Administering, sanitary inspectors' duty respecting, F. Mead 10554. Public Health (London) Act—continued. Penalties for non-compliance with notice concerning overcrowding and for permitting overcrowding* ib. 10556. Person against whom summons is issued and upon whom penalties are inflicted in cases of over- crowding, ib. 10559. Information of nuisance caused by overcrowding given by private individual; doubt as to magi- strate's power to inflict penalty, ib. 10583. Act, if stringently enforced, would stop overcrowding; ib. 10601, 10808, 10857. Landlord liable to penalty for allowing overcrowding in his house, ib. 10605. Costs, recovering under Summary Jurisdiction Act in cases of prosecution under Public Health Act,. ib. 10608. Night inspection in cases of suspected overcrowding i magistrate's warrant necessary for, ib. 10612, 10623. J Bye-laws ; making and enforcing by sanitary authority. Act authorising, ib. 10621. Difficulty in enforcing, to prevent overcrowdings Haden Gorser 12900. Non-enforcement of law against overcrowding by local authority in the Worship Street district, ib. ;F 12926. Strict administration of, since 1891 would have checked the overcrowding in East End, Cohen 15725. Misconception as to time required to abate nuisance under, Dickinson 14848. Procedure of, to abate overcrowding, ib. 14848. Necessity of notice to prevent by public authority should be done away with, ib. 14871. «<>• Effective operation of Section 7 involves a penalty,. ib. 14879. * Weakness in procedure, Joseph 15842. Alterations and additions needed, ib. 15846-15848. Frequent proceedings against alien Jews taken under* in Manchester, GUmour 21238, 21306. Only Act under which a foreign ship in an insanitary condition can be dealt with as a nuisance, H. L. Smith 22541. Power of making bye-laws should be fully exercised and bye-laws enforced, J. Lithiby 23501. Medical officers consider bye-laws cumbrous, ib. 23508. Sections 100 and 101 of Act, provisions of, ib. 23510. Public Health Committee—Refusal of, to recommend appointment of more sanitary inspectors, T. E* Williams 18591-18592. Pulp Boards. See Boot and Shoe Trade. Q. Quarantine—Medical policy of this country is against* supervision having been substituted, H. L. Smith 22280. Quarterly Review—Reference to article in, A. White,? 1065-1066. R. Racial Type—Obduracy of, ib. 332-333. Rack-Renting—By aliens in Leeds, causes riot, Gonnellan 15026. Rates, Eppect op Alien Immigration upon : Statistics of Poor-Law relief granted to aliens in London in 1899 and 1900, H. L. Smith, 226-236. In St. George-in-the-East alien Jews become charge- able on account of medical relief, confinements, and imbecile children, Barrett 2201-2227, 2341- 2342; Silver 2637-2646. Aliens do not pay their fair share of rates ; in conse- quence of the overcrowded condition in which they live, a proper assessment cannot be made, Silver 2646-2657. They also resort to devices calculated to deceive the Assessment Committee as to rents paid, ib. 2771-2787, 2871-2876 ; Dix 5302. Increased cost of scavenging in St. George-in-the- East owing to dirty habits of aliens, Silver 2658.INDEX. 45 Rates, Effect of Alien Immigration upon—cont. Overcrowding in Stepney could be dealt with by- steady and systematic enforcement of the law; a substantial increase would, however, be needed in the staff of sanitary inspectors, and there would be an addition to the expenses of adminis- tration, Murphy 4827-4849. Rates—Relative burden of, on dwelling-houses and factories, Joseph 15798. Disproportion due to an understanding between the various rating authorities, 15799. Reading : Jewish aliens sent to, by Jewish Dispersion Com- mittee, Montagu 16786. Trades at, in which Jews employed, ib. 16788 ; Bull 20468. Colony of Jews engaged in tailoring and clothing trades, Martin 19795. 80 per cent, of the Jewish population in, are from the Tower Hamlets, Ehreriburg 20006. Overcrowding in, rents in, wages in, ib. 20007- 20012. Action of foreign Jews in relation to local interests in, ib. 20007. Population of, Bull 20469. Alien population of, ib. 20470. No anti-Jewish feeling existing in, ib. 20473. Jews in, principally take to tailoring trade (bespoke), ib. 20477. Ready-made Clothing Industry—Origin of, Marston 11428 ; Montagu 16829. * Refugees—Admission to United Kingdom of aliens who have been persecuted in foreign countries, A. White 1125, 1238-1259. Registered Lodging-houses : In Manchester, number of, Gilmour 21233. An increasing number in East End, Barnett 17593. Registered Jewish Lodging-houses—In Liverpool, owned by shipping companies for the use of trans- migrants, Hope 21444. Registration of Houses : Difference of opinion between Local Government Board and magistrates respecting perpetuity of registration, D. L. Thomas 5610-5613. Process of, ib. 5621. Necessary to bring houses under bye-laws, ib. 5621. 2,500 houses ready for registration in Stepney, ib. 5631-5635. Registration of houses receiving lodgers, should be compulsory, B. R. By gate, 5913. t Decision in Weatheritt v. Cantlay rendering regis- tration of lodging-houses difficult, J. Foot 6756. Lodging-houses not registered, tenement houses, bye-laws cannot be enforced in, ib. 6811, 6816. Registration of lodging-houses, mode of procedure, ib. 6851. Lodging-houses, registration of, bye-laws relating to, D. L. Thomas 7241. " Keeper," definition of, ib. 7249. Registration of Aliens : Abroad before admission; thus making shipowners careful whom they bring, Haden Corser 12871. Advisable, ib. 12871. Of those other than transmigrants advisable, McConnell 12764. For the prevention of crime is advisable, Joseph 16184. On arrival, how to prevent those registered going to congested districts, Montagu 16993. Regnart, Horace—Of Maples, Limited. His views on the good influence of Jews on the cabinet-making trade, Prag 17860. Rehousing—Method of, in Leeds, after demolition, Marston 14420. Reid's Estate—InHolborn, occupied by aliens, disgrace- ful condition, and high rents of, Birch 14836. Rejections in United States : : r"::' Very few dealt with by Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15468 ; Joseph 15782. Very few from America into this country, compared with those admitted, between 1888 and 1900, Greenberg 17097. Of aliens by America, are forwarded home when they return to Liverpool, Hope 21485, 21502. By United States, particulars of, H. L. Smith | 22225. Liability of shipping companies in respect to aliens rejected by the United States, ib. 22244. At Liverpool, number of, ib. 22257. Powers of Board of Trade in respect to, ib. 22260. Comparative numbers of, in United States in 1892 and 1902, ib. 22287. Difficulties in respect to, in United States, ib. 22297. Relief : Form and nature of, given by Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15712. Statistics of, given to foreign Jews of the various Jewish bodies, Emanuel 16605. In Manchester. See Jewish Board of Guardians. Religious Baths (Jewish)—Six in Whitechapel, Mon- tagu 16810. Religious Life—How Affected by Aliens : Places of worship closed in consequence of English population being driven away by alien immigrants, G. H. Garrett 6528 ; J. W. Johnson 8559. Sunday, practical disappearance of, in Stepney, G. H. Garrett 6531 ; Evans 11657. Alien influx has caused all Nonconformist chapels to be closed in Spitalfields, Tyler 8646. Sunday desecration in Stepney, W. WalTcer 8967 ; in Spitalfields, Rev. W. H. Davies 9746. English workmen employed by Jews, idle on Satur- day, work on Sunday, ib. 9748. Sunday trading, provisions of Factory Act concerning, ib. 9818. Sunday observances disregarded by, Rev. A. E. Ballon 10174. Sunday difficulty, how could be removed, Rev. E. C.- Carter 10247, 10273. Trading in overcrowded areas on Sunday the same as on week-days, H. Evans 11657, 11680, 11685. Rents : Great rise of, in East End of London, owing to influx of aliens, A. White 467-471; A. T. Williams 1586- 1588, 1624-1626, 1635-1649, 1655-1658, 1667- 1668 , 1689-1690, 1706, 1721, 2918-2925 ; Barrett 2126, 2151-2161, 2346-2349 ; G. Brown 2385-2401 ; Silver 2612, 2623, 2663, 2818 ; Z. Solomons 3058- 3061, 3221 ; Mr. A. 3505-3508 ; Belcher 4133-4141, 4300 ; Garrett 6503, 6895. The aliens overcrowd the houses, otherwise they could not pay the high rents, A. T. Williams 1649,, 1656-1658 ; Barrett 2151 ; G. Brown 2405, 2462; D. L. Thomas 5661 ; Garrett 6573. Were overcrowding stopped rents would fall, G. Brown 2467-2470, 2477-2478 ; Silver 2735-2741. Increase of, Walmer 5196, 5205, 5265 ; JDix 5389. Rents raised by alien purchasers of property, G. II. Garrett 6515 ; Johnson 8560. Also to great demand for houses within small area, J. Foot 6579. Bethnal Green rents, increase in, ib. 6605. Two rent-books kept, ib. 6635 ; D. L. Thomas 7193. Jewish aliens able to pay higher rents than native British subjects, reason for, J. Foot 6759. Bethnal Green, Boundary Street County Council buildings, rents charged, ib. 6788. Bethnal Green, alien influx raising rents and turning English inhabitants out of their homes in conse- quence, Hodge 8037, 8038, 8040, 8041. £< Fair Rent Courts," East End agitating for, Hodge 8042-8046. High rents, overcrowding the occasion of, ib. 8146, 8218-8221. Bethnal Green, English landlords raise rents as well as foreigners by reason of overcrowding, Tyler 8635-8641 ; R. ParJces 8714. Stepney, rents raised in, S. J. Pearce 8992-8994 ; Wi Booth 9281.46 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Rents— continued. Whitechapel, alien influx causing enormous rise in rents, W. A. Rose 9098. Adjustment of rents by local public authorities sug- gested, ib. 9143, 9166, Rents raised beyond means of tenants prevent thrift, ib. 9183. High rents, why foreigners can pay, F. James 9239. Raising rents by foreign landlords, instances in St. George-in-the-East, J. Pam 9298-9302 ; Shore- ditch, Coles 9599; Stepney, Kreamer 9694. Rents would not be raised if overcrowding could be done away with, Rev. W. H. Davies 9837. Increased rents due to purchase of property by Jewish landlords, S. Mather 10370. Increase, of rents in Bethnal Green and Stepney, tables giving details concerning, E. Harper 10983. Overcrowding and high rents act and react upon each other, J. Brown 11071. Keeping two rent-books, reference to, ib. 11235. Aliens paying high rents, mode by which they are able to pay, P. Walter 11454. Increase in, in Spitalfields, Christchurch, Whiteehapel, and Mile End New Town parishes, details of, Ei Harper 11506, 11576. London County Council buildings,- basis on which tents are fixed, ib. 11621. Settle Street, rise in rents of new properties, H. Evans 11659. Caused by propinquity to City, 11665. Increase of, in East End, due to enhanced value of property through substitution of workshops for ....., dwellings, ib. 11659, 11661, 11671, 11943-11946. Great rise of, in workshops, ib. 11665. Albert Square, new workshops built at the back of the houses, increased value of, ib. 11735. .....High price of rooms in Soho, ib. 11914. Increased in St. Pancras through the disorderly houses, Walters 13084. Increase of, in Stepney unique, Harper 13951. t Tendency to rise in spite of decrease of population in certain districts of London, ib. 13955. Cause ill-feeling, X. Lyons 14151, 14219. Increase of, in Saffron Hill district through influx of aliens, Birch 14793. Rise in, in Leeds, Bialofski 15123, 15127. Rise in, in Stepney due to the erection of business premises, Joseph 15762. Rise in, in London, due to increase of low slum jobbers, taking advantage of scarcity of accom- modation, ib. 15797. Rise in, due to a large extent to erection of business premises, 16109. Of private speculators in house buildings are high, ib. 16220. Average rise of, in Stepney, ib. 16125. High rents inevitable in East End, through necessity to live near work, Emanuel 16641. When raised cause overcrowding, ib. 16644. Increase of, by overcrowding should be checked by drastic enforcement of the law, Oreenberg 17188. Increase of, in East End, often due to high price demanded for sale of property, Lewis 17410. Ability of Jews to pay higher rents due to abstinence from alcohol, Gordon 17727. East End, increase of, reasons for, other than alien immigration, Mr. Lewis Solomon 18140, 18172- 18191. Houses replaced by business premises causing f increase of, in East End, ib, 18161, 18172. Increase of: Caused by erection of workshops and factories ; % in place of dwelling-houses, Mr. W. Ward : y 18312. In St. George's due to poverty, not to alien . r . immigration, Mr. T. E. Williams, 18455-63. Overcrowding causing and caused by, Bruce : 18329,18358. 1: In St. George's, houses rented out room by room P direct by landlord to tenant, cause of, T. E. Williams 18462. ! • , Raised by Christian and Jewish landlords, ib. 18509. , Suggestion that Borough Council should take pos- session of property to keep down, and to prevent „ ";'i pvercrowding, ib. 18509, 18521. Rents—continued. In East End, increase of, caused by poverty, ib• 18552-55. Increased in St. George's by properties changing hands, ib. 18574-77. Increase of property sold at 50 per cent, above its value owing to, ib. 18574, 18643. Nationalisation of property suggested for keeping down high rents and overcrowding, ib, 18588. Proximity to City causes increase of, ib. 18647. In West Central London, largely increased, Fersht 20676. Cause of increase, in West Central London, ib. 20682. In Glasgow not affected by foreign Jews, Pinto 20875. Of houses on front lands and back lands in Glasgow per month, ib. 20988. In East End have increased through the greater overcrowding of the aliens, Harris 21624. Rent Books—Use of two, one for Assessment Committee, one for landlord, D. L. Thomas 5573-5576. Repatriation of Aliens : Jewish Board of Guardians spending annually large sums on sending back undesirable aliens to their own country, J. Brown 11294, 11296, 11304. Of bad characters advisable, McGonnell 12768. By Jewish Board of Guardians, estimate of, from 1895 to 1902, Cohen 15325. By Jewish Board of Guardians, number of, from 1895 to 1902, ib. 15330. By Jewish Board of Guardians, ib. 15421. By Jewish Board of Guardians, class of persons repatriated, ib. 15469. In 1902, number of, ib. 15504. By Jewish Board of Guardians is a strong argument in favour of Legislature doing so, ib. 15604. Unsuccessful aliens generally are persuaded to return home, ib. 15649. Applicants for, must contribute to expense, if pos- sible, ib. 15653. A through ticket requisite to aliens repatriated, ib. 15696. Classes repatriated by the Russo-Jewish Committee, Joseph 15773, 16230. Resorted to after a labour test, ib. 16232. Due not to illness, but to slackness of work, Landau 16381. Many applicants contribute to the expense of, ib. 16443. Applicable to men who, being failures, voluntarily return, Montagu 16920. .The cruelty of, the policy of pressure as exercised by the Jewish Board of Guardians, Oreenberg 17111. By Manchester Jewish Board of Guardians, pro- cedure, Isaacs 20800, 20836. From Manchester, complaint in Hamburg that aliens are not provided with funds to proceed, ib. 20843. Cost of proceeding beyond German port to Russian frontier must be paid by shipping companies returningaliens, Joseph 21586. Facilities given by German companies, ib. 21590. By the Russo-Jewish Committee, no difficulty experienced at port of destination to which aliens are repatriated, ib. 21586. Replacement—Not displacement, in Stepney due to natural causes, Joseph 15762, 16095. Residental Abeas—In Stepney converted into indus- trial premises, Gordon 17681. Restriction : Difficulty in finding arguments in favour of, Amstell 12209-12215. On immigration advisable, McConnell 12773. Involves placing an obligation upon the shipping companies, nature of, obligation, Cohen 15663, 16301-16459. Sentimental objection to, Joseph 16182. Of aliens inimical to the interests of England except in the case of criminals and the diseased, Prag ■ 17884. Restriction in America—Number of American ports at which machinery for, exists, Cohen 15668.INDEX. 47 Restrictive Legislation : ; Its evil effects of, from various points of view, Greenberg 17127. Would promote anti-Semitism in England, ib. 17174. \ Not successful in America, Cohen 15685. Retail Traders : Suffer more from competition with large establish- ments than from exclusive dealings of aliens, Lewis 17480. ' Cause of depression of small shopkeepers in Mile End Road, Gordon 17609. Large establishments are benefiting by advent of aliens, ib. 17609. Riga—Evans-Gordon 13349. Ringwood—Men's boots made at, Weber 19306. Roelants, Mr. J. J.—Represents Emigration Com- missioners in Rotterdam, his duties, Eddis 21713 (a). Rookeries in Whitechapel—Now replaced by ware- houses, Cohen 15411. Rothschild Buildings—Because under better control, habits of the tenants are more satisfactory, Lewis 17348. Rothwell—Men's boots made at, Weber 19306. Rotterdam : "Mir. J. J. Roelants represents Emigration Com- missioners at, his duties, Eddis 21713 (a). Medical examination at, ib. 21713 (a). Report of visit to, ib. 21713 (a). Shipping companies having steamers sailing from, to English ports, ib. 21713 (a). Rotterdam : American Line—Action of, Eddis 21713(a). Roumania : Oppression of Jews in, A. White 340. Rapid increase of Jewish population of, ib. 351. Ejmgration from, to England, in 1900, T, Herzl 6304. Jewish inhabitants, number of, ib. 6429. Legal status of, ib. 6433. Anti-Semitic feeling in, ib. 6441. Immigration from has practically ceased since 1900 (the year of the crisis), Cohen 15282. Rotjmania, Methods of Emigration in—Evans-Gordon 13349. Roumanian Jews—Report concerning, from the British Consulate-General at Galatz; number emigrated from Roumania, and their destination, 12653*. Roumanians % Small number immigrated in 1902, Cohen 15283. Number of, who have proceeded direct to New York in 1902, ib. 15297. Have gone to Canada direct, Montagu 16876. Destitute condition of, Baron Hirsch's Society asked America not to send more, ib. 16960. Royal School of Mines, South Kensington—Student in, from Jews' Free School, Captain Denniss 18298. Rushden—Men's boots made at, Weber 19306. Russia: Persecution of Jewish inhabitants of Pale of Russia, T. Herzl 6296. Improvement of condition of Jewish inhabitants, pressure put upon Russian Government respecting, ib. 6377. Russians.:, dumber of, who have proceeded direct to New York in 1901 and 1902, Cohen 15300. Keen desire of, to become naturalised, Lewis 17366. Fines, are levied on persons wishing to leave the country, if relations have not. fulfilled military service, Somper 19220. Occupations of, in Borough of Holborn, Jones 21997. Russians, Poles, Roumanians, Immigration of, 1901, 1902-^Rettirns of Board of Trade, 15784*; many en route, Joseph 15863. Russians and Poles : Come to Soho district from other parts of London, not direct from the Continent, Hayer 12991. In receipt of parochial relief (including medical) in 1899 and 1900, Cohen 15388. Estimated increase of, since 1891, Joseph 15753. In Sheffield, cause of emigration from East, their principal occupations; their progress, salutary effects on native workers, Wigram 20079. Employed in the cap-making trade, I. Solomons 20508. Form the bulk of foreigners relieved in Manchester, Isaacs 20773. Form bulk of alien population in Manchester, Niven 21740. Russo-German Frontier—Crossing of, by emigrants* Mr. A. 3370-3395, 3400-3407 ; Mr. B. 3566-3573. Russo-Jewish Committee : Began to co-operate with Jewish Board of Guardians in 1891, Cohen 15254. Repatriate pauper cases, Joseph 15770. 15948. Figures of, showing how quickly the poor Jew becomes independent of charitable relief, Joseph 15782. See also Jewish Board of Guardians, and Russo- Jiewsh Conjoint Committee of. Has labour test, Joseph 16230. Origin of, how it co-operates with the Jewish Board of Guardians, Landau 16269. Number of applicants to, in 1902, of the most neces- sitous class, do not apply immediately on arrival, Joseph 21581. Russo-Jewish and Jewish Board of Guardians, Conjoint Committee of—Return showing the number of refugees arriving, and either relieved, emigrated, or repatriated in the 21 years, 1882 to 1902, inclusive, and the cost, Joseph 15914.. Rye—Settlements of French and Walloon immigrants in sixteenth century, W. J. C. Moens 23144. S. Sabbath : Employment of aliens on, by sweater, Evans 11659, 11690. Work in America is very prevalent, discouraging Jewish aliens, Montagu 16950. More strictly observed by Jews than Sunday by Christians, T. E. Williams 18523. St. Ann's, Soho—District of, improved by active steps against disorderly houses, Fersht 20726. St. George-in-the-East : Is one of the divisions of the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, Barrett 2117 ; Rygate 5866. Population of, about 47,000, Barrett 2121. Displacement, by aliens, of native population of west ward, during last eight years, ib. 2116-2121, 2262- 2264. Similar displacement now m. progress in east ward; in the south ward the native population have by violent means kept the aliens out, ib. 2122-2124, 2184-2186, 2251-2256 ; Silver 2615. Lowering of standard of living, in consequence of alien influx, Barrett 2192-2193. Great number of mentally afflicted alien children sent to the County Council Asylum ; these a direct charge on the rates ; medical and surgical relief granted to aliens, ib, 2201-2227, 2303-2311. Large proportion of Jewish. children in schools, ib. 2228-2237. Overcrowding, rise of rents, key-money, ib. 2128- 2177, 2240-2249, 2346-2373 ; Belcher 4132-4282. Proportion borne by foreign, to total population in 1891 and 1901, Murphy, 3916. Statistics of overcrowding, as shown by Census enumeration of 1891 and 1901, ib. 3926-3948. Vital statistics, ib. 3949-3962. Population, increase* B, Ra Eygate 5943. Overcrowding, steps taken to remedy evil, ib. 5982. Alien population turning English out, Gillmore 8807. English-Jewish population decreasing in consequence of habits of aliens, Francis 8870. Gloucester Buildings, formerly clean and respectable, now a disgrace owing to alien influx, J. Pam 9325.48 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Index. St. George-in-the-East—continued. ~~~~ , Rents 27 years ago and. at present day compared, jRev. W. H. Davies 9706. Character of place changed by alteration in shipping trade, P. Walter 11456. Births, excess over deaths, E. Harper 11486. Bents increased, ib. 11524. - Insanitary state of houses in, due to inaction of sani- tary authority, H. Evans 11736, Influence of alien immigration on, Lewis 17262. Former disreputable character of, ib. 17262. Sunday trading in, ib. 17262. Many Germans, sugar bakers, were formerly in, ib. 17263. Population increasing since 1891, ib. 17273. List of streets, showing number of Jews and number of Christians in each in 1900, ib. 17287. Presence of aliens in, due to gaps created by declining industries, ib. 17393. Always very cosmopolitan, ib. 17437. Bye-laws against overcrowding in, not generally enforced, Dr. Hamer 17971. Has smaller foreign population than Mile End Old Town, Whitechapel, ib. 17994. Pennington Street, houses replaced by business premises realising more than previously, Lewis Solomon 18161. Increase of rents in, due to poverty, not to alien immigration, T. E. Williams 18455-63. Extent of overcrowding over-estimated: result of house-to-house survey, ib. 18472-92. Overcrowded .district in, mostly inhabited by alien immigrants, ib. 18495. Overcrowding and legal overcrowding, distinction ; between, ib. 18563. Property changing hands, increasing rents in, ib. 18574-77. Sugar refiners, chiefly Germans, moving from district, ib. 18582. Betts Street School, Nugent 18710, 18726, 18765. Christian Street School, Butcher 18801. Christian Street largely populated by Jews, ib. 18806, St. Helena—Obduracy of racial type among Negro families in, A. White 332-333. St. Pangeas : Population of, increased since 1891, Walters 13087. Diminution of inhabited houses, ib. 13087. Foreigners increasing, as shown at the last three Census enumerations, Sykes 13284. Areas of, and nationalities of foreigners in. ib. 13286. Large majority of foreigners are German, ib. 13288 ; ; Harper 13960, and Table 13961. Foreigners, occupations of, Sykes 13289, 13301. House property, displacement of, by warehouses, causing overcrowding, ib. 13303. Ice-cream vendors in, are nearly all Italians, ib. 13309. • f .Many foreigners live in, but work outside, chiefly in restaurants, ib. 13317. .Poor Law relief to foreigners confined to a certain district; nature of relief given, ib. 13318. Birth and death rate of, are equal, ib. 13323. Overcrowding in, ib. 13327; Prag 17829., Table 1a, giving total population, Harper 13873; evidence thereon, ib. 13893. Table Ib, giving number of persons born in foreign countries, in, ib. 13873; evidence thereoo, ib. 13903. Table Id, giving percentage of British and foreign- born population to total population, ib. 13873; evidence thereon, ib. 13924. ^ Table Ib, showing the net movement of the whole population, ib. 13873; evidence thereon, ib. 13926. \[ :Table 3a, dealing with overcrowding in, ib. 13873.; evidence thereon, ib. 13941. 'Table lc, giving number of British subjects in, ib. 13873. Population stationary since 1881, ib. 13893. A very expanding district, decrease |of population ! in some parts, increase mothers balancing each other, ib. 13897. Population of, decrease in proportion of native born, and increase in proportion of alien born, ib. 13925. Overcrowding in, decreased since 1891, ib. 13941. St. Panceas—continued. Table giving countrv of birth of foreigners in,] ibl 13961. Proportion of foreigners in, Emanuel 16601. Alien population of. small, Prag 17812. Nationalities of, ib. 17814. Jewish population, number and percentage of, ib, 17815. Area in which Germans reside ib. 17817. Results of sanitary inspection in 1898 compared with those yielded in Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town in 1894, Dr. Hamer 17971. Table showing result of sanitary inspection of houses, ib. 17971 ; further explanations of, 17974-89, 18023-32. More overcrowded in 1898 than Mile End Old Town and Whitechapel in 1894, ib. 17993. Overcrowding in, Census definition compared with bye-law definition of, ib. 17996. Difference of standard, ib. 17997-18001. Somers Town most overcrowded district of, ib. 18029. Tottenham Court Road largely occupied by foreigners,^ ib. 18110. Great Central Railway, construction of, causing demolition of houses, effect of, ib. 18124-18133. St. Peter's, Hatton Garden—Evening continuation school in, half of the pupils being Italians ; character of, Stewart Headlam 20240. St. Peter's, Saffron Hill—Italians much decreasing in parish of, Canney 12656. St. Petersburg—Evans-Gordon 13349. Saffron Hill, Finsbury : Part in Holborn, part in Finsbury, Newman 12459. Change of population in, through influx of aliens,- Birch 14788. Increase of rent through influx of aliens, ib. 14793. Sailors, Scandinavian—The constant arrival and departure of, cause repetition in returns, Emanuel 16666. Salonica Cases: Description of, and how treated, Joseph 15989. Report of Russo-Jewish Committee on, ib. 16008. Samson—Hon. Agent of Jewish Board of Guardians in Hamburg for their repatriation cases, Cohen 15323. Sandwich—Settlement of Dutch immigrants in 1567; W. J. C. Moens 23130. Sanitary Authority : Inaction of, in Stepney and St. George's, Evans 11736.: Efficiency of, in Mile End, ib. 11736. Power of factory inspector to proceed against occupiers for employment during overtime trans- ferred to, ib. 11736-11742. Difference of power of factory inspector to that of, ib. 11742. No power to enter without a warrant after 9 o'clock, ib. 11741, 11742. Greater powers and better arrangements of, in Man- chester than in London, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17899, 17923, 17924. Soap, lime-wash and disinfectants supplied by, in Manchester, ib. 17899. Board of Health in connection with, in Manchester, ib. 17924. More active in Manchester than in London, ib. 17927,' 17929. Bethnal Green, inaction of, Dr. Hamer 18019. Sanitary Certificate—Necessary to exempt houses under £20 from inhabited house duty; often obstruc- tively refused, Joseph 15818. Sanitary Committee of Jewish Board of Guardians : See Jewish Board of Guardians. Resolution of, as to desirability of registering as houses let in lodgings block dwellings, Cohen 15405. Supplements action of local authorities, ib. 15581. Sanitary Conditions—Of Jews in Glasgow are satisfac- tory, Pinto 20876.INDEX. 49 -Results of, in Camberwell in 1897, Piumstead and St. Pancras in 1898, compared with those yielded in Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town in 1894, Dr. Hamer 17971. Table showing result of, in Kensington, St. Pancras, Lambeth, Whitechapel, Mile End Old Town. ib. 17971. Further explanation of, ib. 17974-89, 18023-32. Kensington Vestry make night inspections, ib. 18036. To abate overcrowding systematic inspection required, ib. 18059. Houses occupied by working class indiscriminately chosen for, by Dr. Hamer, ib. 18108. Sanitary Inspectors : Staff increased in Stepney after 1892, Lewis 17265. Staff in Stepney insufficient to check overcrowding, ib. 17335; Gordon 17768. A larger staff of, required in Stepney, ib. 17768. Action of, in respect to overcrowding, Marston 14401. Female appointed in Manchester, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17899. Disinfectants, soap and lime supplied by, in Man- chester, ib. 17899. Working in connection with Board of Health in Man- chester, ib. 17924. Proceedings more promptly taken before magistrates by, in cases of overcrowding in Manchester than in London, ib. 17928-17929. Inadequacy of existing staff of; desirability of increasing the number of, for the better enforce- ment . of bye-laws as regards overcrowding, in Stepney, Limehouse, St. George-in-the-East, Mile End Old Town and Whitechapel, Dr. Hamer 17968, 17971, 18039, 18060. Result of an inquiry made by, in Camberwell in 1897, Piumstead and St. Pancras in 1898, and Kensing- ton in 1899, ib. 17971. Whitechapel, Vestry appoints, ib. 18039. Number required varies with each district, ib. 18043- 18047. House - to - house survey made in St. George's, T. E. Williams 18472, More required in Stepney, ib. 18532-37. In Manchester, action of, Gilmour 21238. Number required by Local Government Board in ratio to population, J. Lithiby 23444. Powers of entry under Public Health Act, 1891, ib. 23450. Stepney having special sanitary inspectors to look to overcrowded houses, ib. 23480. Sanitary Laws : Difficulty in administration of Public Health Act due to doubt whether a notice should be served on occupier or owner, D. L. Thomas 5480. Number of notices against overcrowding under Public Health Act, from April, 1890, to April, 1891, in Stepney, ib. 5493-5506. Number of cases proceeded against, ib. 5507-5512. Act employed for houses let in lodgings, ib. 5594-5600. Stepney Borough Council very active in enforcing Act, ib. 5604, 5622. Public Health Act adopted in preference to bve-laws, ib. 5636. Nearly every medical officer of health in London has abandoned taking proceedings under bye- laws, and has adopted Public Health Act, ib. 5678- 5688. Sleeping rooms: Cubical capacity, registration desirable, B. R. Rygate 5907. Cubical capacity per adult, ib. 5909, 6024-6036. Comparison between legal standard of cubical capacity and that allowed in barracks and hospitals, J. Foot 6696. Sanitary laws inadequate to deal with overcrowding, ib. 6739. Sanitary nuisances, Mansion House Council on Dwellings of the Poor dealing with until abated, Hodgk8032. Insanitary condition of houses due more to remiss- ness of alien owners th°n habits of tenants, ib. 8033. $ 6144. Sanitary Laws—continued. Stricter enforcement of laws would stop alien influx, W. A. Rose 9146. Should be more rigidly enforced in East End. Barnett 17553. Sanitary Regulations — Supervised by the Sanitary Committee of the Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15400. Sanitation : Satisfactory condition of houses in Stepney Borough; Evans 11731. Soho worse than Stepney, ib. 11731-33, 11884. Condition of Jewish workshops, improvement in, ib. 11733. Sanitary conveniences, disgraceful state of, in St. George's and Whitechapel, ib. 11742. Sarah Pike Home—Reference to, Murphy 4900. Saturday and Sunday Work—Many Jews work neither day, Vaughan 13150. Schecita, or Slaughtering Board : Functions of. Montagu 16812. Has a licensing committee, to license Jewish retail butchers, ib. 16815. In Glasgow, statistics of, Pinto 20894. School Board (London) : Evening Continuation Schools Committee of, Stewart Headlam 20213. Alien pupils in continuation school, adults and children well up to the average, ib. 20216, 20220. Continuation schools principally attended by foreign Jews, ib. 20221; attendances of, ib. 20224. Aliens show great aptitude in absorbing English ideas and life in continuation schools, ib. 20223. Highest attendance in Settle Street School, Stepney, chiefly composed of alien children, ib. 20225. Evening continuation school run by, in St. Peter's, Hatton Garden; mainly composed of Italians, ib. 20240. Jewish pupils more keen than British in continuation schools, ib. 20248. School Inspectors : Extracts from reports on Settle Street Board School, Mansfield, 18388, 18399. Jewish boys, Deal Street School, commended by, Butcher 18868. Schools: Evils connected with local Jewish elementary theo- logical schools, A. White 402. Great increase in recent years in number of Jewish children in public elementary schools of London, ib. 422-430 ; Barrett 2228-2237, 2329- 2332 ; Silver 2647-2657. English children's holidays postponed to make them synchronise with Jewish Passover, Broivn 2439- 2440. English ratepayers have to build schools for foreign children ; owing to overcrowding, aliens do not pay their fair share of rates, Silver 2646-2657. Jewish children are regular attendants, A. White 427. Whitechapel Foundation School, percentage of Jewish children, G. H. Garrett 6551. Stepney, elementary schools, percentage of foreign children in, J. W. Johnson 8559 ; R. Par Ices 8714. Christian children said to be rejected and aliens admitted, ib. 8718-8726. Board schools, churches, and houses in Stepney pulled down to make room for, consequent on alien influx, Shead 9058. Jewish Free School, J. Pam 9361. Stepney church school having 50 per cent, of Jewish children, Rev. A. E. Dalton 10173. Tower Hamlets Division of the London School Board, number of Jewish children taught in schools carried on by Jewish community, S. Mather 10281. Number of Jewish children taught in 16 Board schools in same division, ib. 10284. Joard schools in Tower Hamlets Division having Jewish teachers, ib. 10291. Tower Hamlets Division Board School officers, languages spoken by, ib. 10294. G50 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Schools—continued. Tower Hamlets Division, Board schools, mixed nationalities, number of Jewish and foreign children in each school, ib. 10303. Tower Hamlets Board School Division, church schools, number of Jewish children in, ib. 10305. Church schools, Jewish children taught their own religion in, ib. 10305. Board schools in East End are becoming practically Jewish, ib. 10310. Tower Hamlets Division Board schools, percentage of Jewish children attending, ib. 10320. Same division, proportion of native and foreign-born children attending, ib. 10322. Board school annual census of children, ib. 10380. Hackney Board schools, proportion of alien children attending, W. C. Matthews 10525-10537. Old Castle Street and Chicksand Street Schools, Bethnal Green, scholars entirely Jewish, Captain Denniss 18288. Jewish boys learn handicrafts at secondary schools, ib. 18297. Jews' Free School, brilliant boy from, student now at Royal School of Mines, ib. 18298. Whitechapel schools and Western Stepney schools, great number of Jewish children, Bruce 18327. Owing to alien immigration, ib. 18327. Settle Street Board School: Attendance statistics from 1872, Mansfield 18388-91. Accommodation at; status of scholars, ib. 18388-91. Percentage of Jews increasing yearly; ib. 18388-91. Educational efficiency growing less satisfactory owing to better class Jews and Christians leaving neighbourhood, ib. 18388-91. Report of inspector fairly good notwithstanding, • ib. 18402. St. Mary's School—Christian children attending there instead of at Settle Street, ib. 18395. Betts Street Board School: Situation of, in centre of alien population of St. George's, Nugent 18728. Increased number of Jewish children owing to better class people leaving the neighbourhood, ib. 18729, 18732. Girls, numbers of, ib. 18765. Tractable and loyal, ib. 18767. Free dinners for very poor Jewish, and free breakfasts for very poor Christian, children, ib. 18770. Betts Street School: Total number of children in, Nugent, 18776. Comparison besween Jewish and Christian children, ib. 18729, 18787. Lower Chapman Street School—Increasing numbers of Jewish boys attending, Butcher 18795. Christian Street School: Three Christian children out of 348 attending, ib. 18801-3. Closes on Jewish holidays, ib. 18845. Deal Street School: Mile End Old Town, Bawden 18867. Progress made by Jewish boys, examinations well passed ; scholarships, matriculation, ib. 18867—18868. H.M. Inspector of Schools commends Jewish boys, ib. 18868. Co wper-Temple Clause, ib. 18889. Scotland : Foreign population of, Pinto 20860. Russians in, ib. 20861. Germans in, ib. 20862. Number of Italians in, ib. 20862. Thriftiness is decreasing in, ib. 20916. Scottish Miners' Federation : Action of, with reference to foreign miners, tuiiio 20949. Threaten strike if foreigners employed, chiefly on account of rates, Baird 21168. Percentage of Scottish Miners belonging to, B. Smillie 22914. Scottish Miners' Federation— continued. Returns showing number of aliens employed im Lanarkshire collieries, mode of obtaining, ib. 22921. Difficulty of ascertaining amount of pay received by foreign miners, ib. 22969. Federation forces owners to pay higher wages to foreign miners, ib. 22969. Influx of foreign labour objected to, on the ground that British miners are to the number of nearly 1,000 out of work, ib. 22980, 22986. Alien miners become members of union, ib. 230x*. Seamen (Alien) : Number who arrived from the Continent as passengers in 1901, H. L. Smith 207-209. Classification of these, ib. 210-212. Seamen working their passage are not included in alien returns, ib. 216-217. Board of Trade ought not to deauct from alien returns total number of alien seamen arriving as passengers, A. White 434-447. How dealt with by Board of '±radey influence on statistics, Emanuel 16572. How dealt with, by Board of Trade, H, Lt Smith 22362* Second-Hand Clothing Trade—Abolished by very cheap new clothing, Z. Solomons 3072. Sewing Machines—In factories cause bad] condition in tailoring trade, L. Lycns 14129. Shebeens—East End of London, shebeens at restaurants Highmore 9959. Sheffield : No tailor factories in, Murfin 14710. Tailoring trade in, is the bespoke business, done on employers' premises, ib. 14713. Number of Jewish aliens relieved m, by Jewish Board of Guardians, Emanuel 16605. Number of Jewish inhabitants in, Wigram 20075. Jewish inhabitants in, character of, ib. 20079. Tailoring trade in, great increase of by Jewish workmen, ib. 20079. Comparison of foreign (Jews) with native workmen in, ib. 20085. Alien pauper unknown in, ib. 20085, Character of Jews in, not criminal, letter of district superintendent of Police, ib. 20085. General population of, Jewish population of, ib. 20086. Principal branch of tailoring trade in Sheffield is bespoke, ib. 20118. Foreign population increasing gradually in, ib. 20127; Sheffield, City Corporation of : Have lately made clothing contracts with aliens : reasons for so doing, Murfin 14741. Procedure of, in respect to clothing contracts, to insure fair wages and sanitary conditions, Hart 21104. Shipping Companies : Obligation upon, in event of restriction, Cohen 15663. Desirability to give a bond, contracting to re-ship undesirables, Joseph 15784. Policy of, at Hamburg, Landau 16301. Will be detrimentally affected by restrictive measures in England, ib. 16301. Benefited by alien immigration, Emanuel 16632. Agreement respecting transmigration between, has been most ineffectual through frauds of agents, ib. 16739. Action of, in respect to immigrants to Argentina and America, ib. 16750. Responsibility imposed upon, may restrict inflow of aliens, Montagu 16963. Liability of, in respect to aliens rejected by the United States, H. L. Smith 22244. Return to Continent those rejected by United States, but admit no liability, ib. 22253. Liabilities with respect to emigrants or transmigrants detained at British ports by Board of Trade officials as unfit, through bodily or mental disease, to proceed to destination, A. G. Chalmers 22865- 22878; F. W> Chambers 23395-INDEX. 51 Shipping Companies—contitmed. Contract tickets ; masters* of ships may not enter passenger on list or allow his presence on ship without such ticket, A. G. Chalmers 22900. (See Netherlands Steamship Company and United Steamship Company). Shipping Companies, Conference op : English and Continental terms of: object to raise fares, Landau 16286. Object of evasion of, and how effected, ib. 16286, 16412. Ships : Immigrants' quarters on, H. Williams 6096-6100, 6174. Libau ships, particulars concerning immigrants' quarters, ib. 6176. Suggested legal steps for improving condition of accommodation, ib. 6176. Overcrowding of Libau ships, proceedings taken against masters by Danish authorities, ib. 6202. Detention of ships for medical examination of alien immigrants, legislation needed concerning, ib. 7019. inspection, detention for, probable result if legalised, ib. 7064. Ships carrying immigrants, if in insanitary state, should be sent back to port of embarkation, ib. 7066. German ships carrying immigrants to London from Bremen, form of certificate issued to, ib. 7074. Dutch and German ships, improvement in immi- grants' quarters on, ib. 7100. ■ No fall in wages in leather trades in East End, ib. U713, 11726. Boot and shoe trade in Stepney not affected by Northampton and Leicester, ib. 11718. Slipper-making not requiring skilled labour, low wages prevail, ib. 11727. Principal centre of shoe industry in Stepney, ib. 11719. Trade in Stepney not affected by Jewish com- petition, ib. Il7l9. East End trade, how affected by Leicester, ib. 11720-23. Wages in East End slipper trade, ib. 11727, 12114- 12116. Prices in, not affected by men working seven days a \peqk, ib. 11991, 12017. A great deal of work in, carried on in private rooms, not workshops, ib. 12020. Greater cheapness pf slippers ascribed to improved n^ethods of work, an advantage, ib. 12177-84. Best and worst ladies' boots and shoes pianufactured in the East End, the manufacture of men's boots being a vanishing quantity, Amstdl 12205. Manufacturers in Soho of a higher class, Bayer 12995. Alien labour impossible to organise, AmsteLl 12209. No ne-jv methods of production introduced by aliens, ib. 12209. Growth of bpot and shoe factors who buy, but do not manufacture, benefits aliens, who sell for cash at low prices; methods adopted by the factors, ib. 12209. ' Factories in Northampton and Leicester well- equipped with best machinery, ib. 12209. Successful action of aliens against the federated Union of Boot and Shoe Makers, ib. 12209. ]VI^p.ufapturers opened retail shops, nearly extin- guishing private traders, and benefiting aliens who sell for cash, ib. 12209. Lower standard of efficiency created by aliens, ib. 12209. How productions of aliens are " faked," ib. 12209. Aliens cannot work machines, and in some cases natives must be employed, ib. 12239. 6144. Trades—continued. Boot and Shoe—continued. Inferior kinds of leather are used by aliens, ib. 12209, Sub-division of labour has not been introduced by aliens, ib. 12282. Consumer should not be benefited at the expense of worker, but with higher prices the standard will be raised all round, ib. 12299-12353. Earnings of unskilled and skilled labour, ib. 12368- 12373. Objection only to unskilled labour, ib. 12378. Volume of production, ib. 13397. Low wages of alien, T. CP Grady 13521. Result of strike of 1890, ib. 13532. Wages higher in America than in England, ib. 13537. Imports from America increasing, ib. 13541. Inferiority of alien work gives London a bad name, ib. 13544. Displacement of labour by aliens, ib. 13557, 13561. Sweating in, ib. 13558. Disinclination of fathers to bring up children in, ib. 13567. Home workers, numbers of, according to Census,; ib. 13572. The best class of work is done by English in London, ib. 13655. American competition not serious, ib. 13577. Export trade holds its own, ib. 13579. Wages are maintained, ib. 13586. Trade unionism not well organised in Northampton; ib. 13598. Machinery, object and use of in trade, ib. 13620. Machinery not objected to by Trades Unions, ib. 13630. Some greeners, inexperienced at first, improve, but position of many is stationary, ib. 13642. In Leeds, reduction of wages, from statement drawn up by employers and aliens employed in 1896, Bialofski, 15101. Census of 1901 shows a shrinkage of labour in, over Census of 1891, Emanuel 16624. Declining; partly due to the large importation of American boots, which, however, is quite insig- nificant compared with home production, Lewis 17305-17309. Foreigners employed, a very small proportion of the total number employed in London, ib. 17311. Only factory employing alien labo>ur in outlying districts of London is Flatau's in Tottenham, ib. 17486. Decline in, in London due to machinery, and com- petition of factories in Midlands, ib. 17489. Large export trade greatly due to Jews, Prag 17852. Jew does not compete with Northampton, Leicester^ and Kettering manufacture, ib. 17852. Revolutionised by Jews, in ladies' and children's boots, shoes and slippers, ib. 17852. Overcrowding in Whitechapel and Mile End work- shops, Dr. W. H. tiamer 17965-17966. Jews enter this trade on leaving school, Captain Denniss 18295. Slippers and fancy shuoS, manufacture of, in London insignificant, Weber 19292, 19408. Lasting and finishing only branches in which foreign labour predominates, ib. 19292. Eleven different departments in, for outdoor wear, ib. 19292. Number of hands required to turn out 1,000 pairs per day, ib. 19292, 19420. Only women's and girls' made to any extent in London, ib. 19292, 19434-19442. Restriction of alien immigration would displace a number of native workmen, ib. 19292-19294, 19557. Pulp boards used for inner soles and stiffeners in imported goods, ib. 19294. Low-priced foreign goods more attractive in appear- ance than home-made, ib. 19295. Comparative prices and qualities ; cheapest qualities exported to British Colonies, ib. 19300. Natives not displaced in best class work, ib: 19302. Cheap class goods, introduced by alien Jews, provides fresh fields for native labour, 19306, 19379-19381, 19395. Wages in, ib. 19306. H Index.58 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION . Trades—continued. Boots and Shoes—continued. Prices little changed in 20 years, ib. 19306. Class of article supplied different; advantages of, ib. 19303. Pulp boards, imported price per ton, uses of and benefit, ib. 19303-19306. Long hours in busy season due to workmen's desire to provide against the slack season, ib. 19306. Natives work better than foreigners, and command better wages, ib. 19306, 19380. Aliens work quicker and are more regular, ib. 19306. No foreign workmen in this trade out of London, ib. 19306. Introduction of machinery cause of displacement, ib. 19306. Long hours due to scarcity of workers, ib. 19306. Men's boots not made by foreigners, ib. 19306. Cheaper prices caused by introduction and improve- ment of machinery, ib. 19310, 19368-19369. Comparison of cheap London shoe made by foreigner with imported goods, ib. 19311. Machinery used in all large East End factories, ib. 19322. Lasting and finishing done by machinery now, ib. 19325. Quality and price of English-made boots and shoes, ib. 19330. Importation of lasting from Germany stopped since aliens have taken up cheap trade here, ib. 19340- 19342, Statement of London Union respecting lasters, ib. 19343. Machine work cheaper than foreign labour, ib. 19344. Where men's strong boots are made, ib. 19345. factories owned by Jews, close on Saturdays and open on Sundays; no compulsory labour in, ib. 19362-19364. Home work still done in East End, ib. 19370-19374. .No apprentices in, but a few greeners, who are paid a small sum to enable them to live, ib. 19378-81, 19562, 19603. Difficulty of obtaining workers, particularly native workers, ib. 19389, 19558, 19614, 19645, 19653. Clickers must be English ; work and wages of, ib. 19392, 19398, 19400. Oheap goods mostly made by aliens; conditions and cost of production, ib. 19434-19442, 19465. Imported shoes, German, Hungarian, Viennese, Swiss, ib. 19457. Home-work, decrease of, ib. 19482. Memel or mock-skin boots, ib. 19484. Number of shoes made with pulp boards a man can turn out in a day, ib. 19501-19514. Little machinery used in home workshops, ib. 19527. Association of Employers, Indoor Workshop Agree- ment, ib. 19528. Use of machinery increasing, ib. 19539. Native workmen more skilled in using, ib. 19543. Feeling against machinery in Leicester, ib. 19544. Demand causes supply of cheap goods, ib. 19545- 19546. Export trade to India, Africa, Australia increased, ib. 19549. English manufacturers successfully compete with foreigners, ib. 19556. Machinists, outdoor workers, mostly married women, ib. 19591. Advance in wages in, H. L. Smith 22501. Special characteristics of, in Kingswood and Leeds, ib. 22510. Export of, in 1888 and 1902, ib. 22521. An English laster is a skilled mechanic, superior to a foreigner, Cohen 20023. Jews only turn out cheap class goods ; cannot com- pete with an English laster, ib. 20023. English have nothing to fear from foreign competition, ib. 20023. Hours of labour in, reduced since workshops checked home work in 1880, ib. 20023. Foreigner (Jewish) as a shopmate in, ib. 20023. Greener sweated only at first, ib. 20023. Competition in, Js between ths manufacturer with machinery and the manufacturer without, ib. 20023. Trades—continued. Boots and Shoes —continued. Wages in, earned by foreigners (Jewish), ib. 20032. Details of shopping, lasting, fitting up in; hours employed in, ib. 20037. Indoor workshop an established fact since the strike of 1890, ib. 20062. Foreigners as clickers are comparatively unknown, Coleman 20072. Foreigners (Jewish) only lasters and finishers, giving employment to English clickers, ib. 20072. Hours of labour in, ib. 20072. Alien Jews chiefly engaged in production of ladies' and children's cheap boots, Finn 20275. Sweating in small shops disappearing, through intro- duction of machinery, ib. 20275. Consol lasting machine causes large diminution of hands, ib. 20275. Capabilities and effect of Boston lasting machine, ib. 20276. Home-work principally in, ib. 20300. Sub-division of labour compensates for a reduction in the price earned per pair, by increasing the number made per week, I. Solomons 20509. ?j Jews driven back to home-work by action of English, ib. 20511. Imports and exports in 1882 and 1902 for United Kingdom, and exports from United States in same years, H. L. Smith 22636. Rise in wages of body of Jewish bootmakers in 1901, cause Of, ib. 22638. Competition in boot and shoe trade, stages of develop- ment during last 25 years ; machinery completely revolutionising trade, ib. 22665. Sweating system in boot and shoe trade, ib. 22668- 22680. Apprenticeship in boot and shoe trade, diminution of, ib. 22681. " Greeners " replacing apprentices, ib. 22682. Sub-division of labour, effect on price of goods, ib. 22690. Bread and Biscuit-Making : Statistics of foreigners engaged in, as enumerated in London County area at Census of 1901, Macleod 542. Bread made in cellars used also as sleeping rooms, jR. Parlces 8727. Jewish baker supplying bread at half the price of English, circumstances enabling him to do so, S. J. Pearce 8980-8988. Bakers working 95 to 108 hours a week for seven farthings an hour, Evans 12061. Bricklaying—Hours in, Joseph 15820. Cabinet-making : Statistics of foreigners engaged in, as enumerated in London County area at Census of 1901, Mac- leod 542-543. Bethnal Green, native tradesmen practically sup- planted by aliens, J. Foot 6654. Jews, furniture for export, now made by, Shead 9048. Proportion of aliens working in Lebus' factory at Tottenham ; their hours and wages, J. O' Grady 13990. Classification of workers in factory at Tottenham, ib. 13991. A large portion of, lost to natives, ib. 14009. Greeners in, method of engaging, ib. 14018. Home work hawked about from factory to factory, and sold at low prices, ib. 14035. Sub-division of labour in, ib. 14042; Jewish workers having received assistance from unions, afterwards desert, L. Lyons 14194. Number of English workshops in Leeds, Thompson 14644. Number of Jewish workshops in Leeds, ib. 14645. Cheap furniture is principally made in factories, ib. 14647. Greeners, their conditions of work, wages, and hours, in Leeds, ib. 14651. Effect of greeners on, in Leeds, ib. 14662. Home work iu; in Leeds, #. 14672 Proportion of foreigners working in Leeds, ib. 14684;INDEX. 59 Trades—continued. Cabinet Making—continued. All workers in the wholesale branch in Leeds are aliens, ib. 14689. Aliens working in Leeds are sent for by employers, ib. 14695. Employers obtain greener's cheap labour in Leeds, ib. 14703. Hours in, Joseph 15819. Foreigners employed, a very small proportion to the total number employed in London, Lewis 17314. Aliens soon attain excellence in, and earn high wages, ib. 17325. Influence of Jews on, Prag 17860. Taken up by Jews on leaving school, Captain Denniss 18295. Jews in Reading engage in, Martin 19799. Increase of wages in Sheffield; Jewish labour increasing the demand, Wigram 20080. Increasing in Sheffield, for both Jew and Gentile, ib. 20097. Machinery is used in connection with, in Sheffield, ib. 20125. Average wage earned by foreign workman, Finn " " 20288. Cap-making : Aliens largely employed in, J. Brown 11288. Introduced into England by Jews, Prag 17852. Overcrowding in workshops, Dr. Hamer 17965-66. Wages earned by foreign workmen, Finn 20295. Introduced into England, and developed by the alien, I. Solomons 20503. Working hours and wages of, ib. 20505. English women employed in; and foreign men, chiefly Russians and Poles, ib. 20505. Originally in the hands of Jews, is now greatly in the hands of native women in Manchester, Policoff 21043. '■ Carrying—Would suffer by restriction in England, Landau 16459. Cheap Clothing—In Leeds, character and particu- lars of, Policoff 21049. Cigar: Jews in Reading engage in, Martin 19799. Cigars and cigarettes are made in factories, Vaughan 13179. Cigarette : Introduced into England by Jews, Prag 17863. In Glasgow is well organised, Pinto 20945. In Glasgow, Kramrisch 21717. Origin of, ib. 21717. Introduced by Jewish aliens into England, ib. 21717. Wages in, ib. 21717. Native female, not male, labour employed in, ib. 21720. Aliens from Russia chiefly employed in, ib. 21727. Sub-division of labour in, very slight, ib. 21729. Importation of labour for, from abroad has ceased, ib. 21732. In Russia gigantic, ib. 21738. Clothing : Statement showing the number of persons affected by changes in wages in the, from the returns of the Board of Trade, Emanuel 16611. Statement showing the number of work-people affected by changes in hours of labour, from 1893- 1900 inclusive, ib. 16619. Contract Tailoring—Procedure of the Sheffield Corporation in respect to contract to ensure fair wages and sanitary conditions, Hart 21104. —Sweating not resorted to in, H. Evans, 11688. Fur and Mantle—Introduced by Jews into this country; chiefly worked by Jewish girls, Prag 17857. Furriers : Bad condition of, Vaughan 13190. Largely in the hands of Russians and Poles, ib. 13173, 13227. 6144. Trades—continued. Furniture : Shoreditch is one of the principal centres of, ib. 13163^ Largely and increasingly in the hands of foreigners in Shoreditch and Bethnal Green, ib. 13175. Certain branches in hands of English, ib. 13177. Larger non-union shops, good sanitary arrange- ments, but conditions of workmen bad, J. CP Grady 13987. Union shops very good in all respects, ib. 13987. Smaller non-union shops, all conditions very bad, ib. 13987. Relative wages of union workers and of alien non- union workers, ib. 13970. Hours of alien labour, ib. 13971. Conditions, wages and degrees of workmen employed by Lebus, of Tottenham, ib. 13991. Displacement of native labour by alien, in the manu- facture of the medium class of, ib. 14009. Native union men make the better class of furniture, ib. 14009. System of keeping two sets of books by alien em- ployers to conceal infringement of union rules, ib. 14026. Sunday labour, ib. 14029. Boy labour lowers the rates, ib. 14034. Home labour ; system adopted and evil consequences thereof, ib. 14035. Glass Working—Introduced into England ; how, and cause of introduction, Landau 16297. Jewellery—This trade has greatly passed into the hands of foreigners, Evans 11936. Ladies' Costume and Mantle : Particulars, and details of, causing disorganisation in; because not developed under factory system Finn 20271. Germany and France formerly ahead of England in ; cause and result of developing it in England, ib. 20271. Action of alien middleman, ib. 20272. A German trade introduced by Jews, now passing into the hands of English women in Manchester, Policoff, 21046. Difference between the manufacture of English-made and German-made mantles, the latter being in the hands of Jews, ib. 21048. Number of Jews employed in, in Manchester, ib. 21048. Portions of, introduced and made entirely by foreigners, Vaughan 13171. Originally a German industry, ib. 13210. Ladies' Tailoring : No English ladies' tailors in 1877, work being done abroad, chiefly in Germany, Cohen 18968. Aliens introduce and teach it to native workers, ib. 18968. Further developments of; number of persons now employed in England in, ib. 18968. Difficulty of finding workers, ib. 18968. Wages in ; hours regulated by Factory Act, ib. 18968. Natives not to be relied on for six days' work a week, ib. 18968. Equal number of natives and aliens employed in Jewish factory, ib. 18970. Jewish factory closed on Saturdays, ib. 18971. Christians not working on Sundays, ib. 18972. Protected labour employed by Jews in, ib. 18976. Kind of work done by women employed by Jews in, ib. 18979. Wages of women employed by Jews in, ib. 18980. Seasonal trade, ib. 18983-18989. Regular weekly wages all the year round in, ib. 18982, 19017-19019. Men's wages in, ib. 18984. Unskilled labour not employed in, ib. 18995-18996, 19026-19029. Riding-habits not made, ib. 18998. Women's hours in, regulated by Factory Act, ib. 19002. Men's hours in, ib. 19004. Hitchcock and Williams, number of aliens emploved by, ib. 19012-19013. H 260 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Trades—contimiedi Ladies' Tailoring—continued'.1 Difficulties of, ib. 19036. Nearly entirely in the hands of foreigners, V aughan 13165. Workshops in, scattered about London, ib. 13167. Leather. See Boot and Shoe Trade. Meat—Bethnal Green, trade of English butchers diminished 50 per cent, owing to influx of aliens, consequent raising of rents and displacing of respectable English customers by aliens who deal at " Kosher " shops, Holditch 9371-9377. Milk : Loss of business sustained by native milk-sellers in East End of London, owing to displacement of native population by aliens, A. T. Williams 1577- 1585, 2892-2895. The alien Jews open little shops to s^ll milk; these are subject to inspection by the London County Council's inspectors ; some want of cleanliness has been found, but the aliens improve in this respect as they become familiar with the standard which is required, Murphy 4071-4075, 4078-4079. Largely adopted by Jews, D. L. Thomas 5467. Aliens go into, shortly after arrival, J. Faber 8895. Aliens sell adulterated milk at low price, Gavalier 9652. East End milkshops, improvement of late years in condition of, due to more frequent inspection under London County Council, Dr. Hamer 17968, 18048-18051. Foreign milkshops more insanitary than English, ib. 18052 ; but amenable to orders, ib. 18054-18055. Mineral Water Manufacturing—Aliens under- selling English makers, circumstances enabling them to do so, S. J. Pearce 8980-8988. Mining : Regulations printed in English, Lumsden 14493. Aliens a source of danger in mines, ib. 14498, 14571, 14586. Wages of aliens dependent upon trade union organisa- tion, ib. 14500. Displacement of native miners by aliens, ib. 14508, 14609. Employment of boys by aliens, ib. 14512, 14605. Miners are paid by piecework, ib. 14515. System of sweating in, ib. 14525. Preference shown to aliens, cause of, and how stopped, ib. 14527. Ill-feeling caused by employment of aliens, ib. 14527. Insanitary conditions under which aliens live, ibi 14533. Apparent organised immigration of aliens, ib. 14536. Aliens are chiefly Roman Catholic Poles, ib. 14554. Number employed in Lanarkshire district, ib. 14580. Aliens assume names of natives, ib. 14583, 14613. Ignorance and inexperience of aliens on arrival, ib. 14634. Motherwell District—Employment of aliens in, began after the strike of 1894, ib. 14477. In Lanarkshire, aliens engaged in, are Roman Catholic Poles, Pinto 20946 ; Bonaldson 22062. Number of Poles and Russians employed in Scotch mines, Bonaldson 22040. Nature of occupation of Poles and Russians in mines in Scotland, ib. 22045. No dangerous consequences result from employment of aliens in Scotch mines, ib. 22050, 22087. Characteristics of aliens employed in Scotch mines, ib. 22051. Uselessness of translating rules into Yiddish in Scotch mines, ib. 22052. Aliens employed in Scotch mines do not reside permanently in the country, ib. 22055, 22070. No displacement of native labour caused by the employment of aliens in Scotch mines, ib. 22057. Number of persons employed below ground in Lanarkshire, ib. 22058. Habits of aliens employed in mines in Lanarkshire, according to a report of a police constable, em- ployed by Baird and Co., ib. 22065. Nlimber of aliens employed in Scotch mines have increased since the strike of 1894, ib. 22079. Trades—continued. Mining—continueds Native workmen in Scotch mines are opposed to the introduction of Poles, ib. 22099. Tannochside Coliery dispute, threatening a strike, explained, ib. 22102. Mine owners in Scotland, contract with one man who employs labour, ib. 22110. Wages earned by aliens in Scotch mines same as those earned by natives, ib. 22117. Poles, working in Scotch mines, are not mixed with natives, ib. 22120. Pianoforte Tuner—Stepney, pianoforte tuner lost over 200 customers through alien influx, Krearner 9681. Poultry Dealers : Jewish poultry " nigglers " in Essex, Urott 9021. Aliens taking up poultry trade, ib. 9035-9040. Printing — Loss of trade through closing of churches and chapels, congregations having been driven out by alien influx, W. Booth 9246-9250.; Rainproof Garment—Largely in the hands of aliens in Manchester, its development by aliens; wages earned in, Policoff 21041. Rubber: Almost entirely in hands of foreign Jews, 75 per cent.: of native labour employed, Continental competition checked, large export trade done in waterproof garments, Abrahams 18899, 18921. No sweating among " greeners " in, ib. 18910. Improvement in trade due to foreign enterprise, ib. 18916. Wages in, according to capacity, ib. 18936. Waterproofing cloth done in London and Manchester chiefly by foreigners, ib. 18939. Shipping — Moved from London and St. Katha- rine's Docks to Victoria and Albert Docks and Tilbury Docks, natives employed in, following, T. E. Williams 18496-7s ^ Shoe : See also Trades, Boot an£> Shoe. Cost of manufacture compared with those under the old system of 1890, Amstdl 13380. By alien as compared with native, price obtained and hours employed, ib. 13384. Lasting, wages aiid hours of aliens and natives, ib$ 13386. Middleman, position of, ib. 13391. Causes of increase of sweating in, ib. 13391. Lowest class only manufactured in London, ib. 13406? Finishing by aliens done by hand, ib. 13411. Aliens only do finishing and lasting without machinery, ib. 13418. Wages according to the national union of boot and shoe operatives, ib. 13368. Slipper-making : See also Trades, Boot and Shoe Largely disappearing from East London, principally in Leeds and Manchester, Amstdl 12206. Characteristics of variety of shoes and slippers, ib. 12207. Trade developed by labour-saving machinery, ibi 12207. Lately taken up by drapers, ib. 12209. The sew-round trade is seasonal, inferior slippers being made by alien outworkers in the East End, ib. 12209. Is an entirely English trade, and not introduced by aliens, ib. 12244. In Leeds, formerly employed English, now entirely aliens, Gonndlan 15004. In Leeds, conditions and prices of, ib. 15007.1 Strike of Jewish workers in 1894 led to only temporary advantagelto workers, ib. 15010. Earnings of Workers, according to a Jewish employer, comments of " Yorkshire Post " thereon, ib. 15016 Sub-division of labour introduced by aliens in Leeds, ib. 15060.INDEX. 61 Trad es—continued. Sugar Baking—Disappeared from the East of London about ten years, causing replacement of population, Joseph 16098. Sugar Refineries : Aliens had nothing to do with disappearance of> in East End, Gordon 17609. Moved from St. George's to North Woolwich and East Ham, natives employed in, following, Tm E. Williams 18498. Tailoring : Statistics of foreigners engaged in, as enumerated in London County area at Census of 1901, Macleod 529-537. Trousers put upon the inarket at Is. 9d. per pair, and suits at 7s. 6d.; these produced by sweated workers, Z. Solomons, 307. Trouser-making trade, conducted by foreigners employing native workers, has trebled during the last decade, H. Evans 11680. Foreigners preferred to natives in trouser-making trade owing to provisions of Factory Act respecting native women and children, ib. 11685. Work done in clothing trade in Stepney not wanted by natives, ib. 11705. West End work special property of native, ib. 11705. Conservatism of English clothing manufacturers, ib. 11705. Wages in Stepney tailoring trade, ib. 11728. Swedes are most competent workers in this trade and greatest competitors of the British, ib. 11917. Swedes and Germans a necessity in, owing to the want of native workmen, ib. 11920, 11922; due to the objection of the Amalgamated Union of Tailors to apprentices * ib. 11924. Foreigners are employed in increasing numbers owing to the absence of apprentices in, ib. 11924-26. Fifty per cent, of this trade in Soho in the hands of foreigners, ib. 11935. Ready-made trade altogether in hands of foreigners, ib. 11961. The work in, would have to be done abroad if alien immigration were restricted, ib. 11963-65. In Soho of a higher class, Hayer 12995. Trades Unions dislike the system of apprentices, Vaughan 13194. Basting and pressing are factory processes, Whatley 13747. Number of cutters in London, ib. 13756. Machinery assists in the manufacture of the coat through sub-division of labour, ib. 13759. Number of persons employed in, in London, L. Lyons 14072. Number of aliens employed in, in London, ib. 14073. Large proportion of workers un-organised, ib. 14074. Adoption of alien system by native workers will expel from the trade, ib. 14082. Long hours, where sub-division of labour is practised, ib. 14088. Number of middlemen in Stepney; their long hours, ib. 14098. Stepney middlemen have no fixed wage, ib. 14098. Prices demanded by union for a practical sub- divisional worker, ib. 14102. Effect of female labour in factories, ib. 14111. Cause and effect of Jewish tailors' strike in 1889, ib. 14111, 14119. Highest wage obtainable by machinist, ib. 14111. Necessity of one machinist to employ others causes him to work for a low wage, ib. 14115. Bad conditions due to the alien immigration and the sewing machines in the factories, ib. 14128. Healthy condition of Jewish workers in, ib. 14141. Condition of, in England, should be published abroad in Yiddish to check immigration, ib. 14183. Bad treatment of workers by employers, ib. 14191. Cheapest class of work is done by native females, ib. 14236. Best class of juveniles done by native females, ib. 14237. " Specials " how made in Leeds, Marston 14314. Greeners undercut prices, and disturb the trade in Leeds, ib. 14336. English workers opposed to sub-division of labour in, ib. 14344. abes—continued. Index. Tailoring—continued ~ No Jewish cutters in Leeds, ib. 14439. Wages in, have fallen in Leeds, ib. 14463. Aliens largely employed in shops in Sheffield, Murfin 14717. In Sheffield various kinds of bespoke business, system adopted in each, ib. 14721, 14741. In Sheffield sub-division a disadvantage to English tailors, ib. 14730, 14745, 14752, 14775. In Sheffield sub-division of labour encourages sweat- ing, ib. 14751. Displacement of labour by aliens very great in Sheffield, ib. 14758. In Sheffield system of apprenticeship dying out, ib. 14759. Comparison of number employed in London according to the Census of 1891 and 1901 shows an expansion of the trade, the number employed being greater than that of the foreigners who arrive, Leivis 17292-17303. Number of male and female tailors in London, native and foreign, in 1901, ib. 17292. Expansion of, amongst natives as well as foreigners, ib. 17399. Female labour in, chiefly native, ib. 17495. Workshops in Whitechapel and Mile End, over- crowding in, Dr. W. H. Earner 17965-66. Taken up by Jews on leaving school, Captain Denniss 18295. Holborn, ready-made tailoring done by Chas. Baker and Co., Wright 19655. Number of hands employed in factories for, ib. 19655. Work done through Jewish master tailors for Chas. Baker and Co. is entirely done by aliens, chiefly Russians and Poles, ib. 19655. Wages in, 19655, 19663. Difference between ready-made garments of to-day and of 40 years ago, ib. 19664. Sub-division of labour not adopted by natives, ib. 19767. Sub-division of labour introduced by aliens, benefit to trade of, ib. 19664. Greeners get small wages whilst learning, rapidly improve, ib. 19664. Hours of work in, ib. 19666. Piece work and time work, ib. 19666, 19671. Difficulty of obtaining skilled workers, 19671, 19699, 19706. Ready-made trade introduced by foreign Jews, ib. 19673. Women's work in, to what extent displaced by foreign Jews, ib. 19677. Best work in, always done by natives, ib. 19686. Cheapest clothes made by aliens in East End, ib; 19711. Machinery and sub-division of labour, rapidity gained by, ib. 19722. " Greener" earnings per day, and work done, ib; 19730. No apprentices in, ib. 19735. Wages of workers in different branches of the trade, ib. 19666, 19679, 19730, 19736. Effect of Factory Act and factory inspectors on hours of work and sanitation in workshops, ib; 19742-48. Women, number employed, work and wages of, ib; 19755. Chief occupation of Jews in West London, Fersht 20658. In West London, wages earned by Jews after about two years' residence, ib. 20662. In West Central London differs from that of East London, the Jew not competing, ib. 20704. In West Central London peculiar to Jews; hence no competition, ib. 20705. Bills, circulated by Manchester Jewish Tailors' Machinists and Pressers' Trade Union, describing sweated conditions of, Lyons 21706. Great increase of, by Jewish workmen in Sheffield, Wigram 20079. Bespoke branch principally in Sheffield, ib. 20118. Methods adopted by British under the rules of the Amalgamated Society of Tailors opposed to those of aliens, Richards 20137. Sub-division of labour, ib. 20139.62 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Trades—continued, Tailoring—continued.• Reasons why British labour unsatisfactory, ib. 20139. Contract work delayed through independence of British workmen in Sheffield, ib. 20140. Wages of alien higher than those of British workmen in Sheffield, ib. 20140. Contracts under the Sheffield Corporation, price and conditions of, ib. 21441. Three Trades Unions in connection with: system adopted by each, ib. 20162. Jews more regular in attendance, and more to be depended upon, ib. 20186, 20199. Wages in Manchester same as in London, Policoff 21005. The better or hand-made garment is still in the hands- of Englishmen, ib. 21006. Natives are more favoured by shopkeepers in Man- chester than aliens, ib. 21007. Sub-division peculiar to the Jews in Glasgow, Pinto 20898. Jews earn higher wages than natives, by time com- parison of earnings per hour, Policoff 21009. Comparative quality of coats made by Jews, with that of coats made by natives, ib. 21014. Difference in make, not materials, ib. 21019. In Manchester dependent upon the Jews; number of garments made each day, ib. 21020. Apprenticeships non-existing in Manchester through habits of parents, ib. 21020. English tailors encourage English girls to come into the tailoring trade, ib. 21021. Jewish immigrants come to supply a need felt in Manchester through the decline of the apprentice- ship system, ib. 21023. In Manchester shopkeepers do not encourage long hours, ib. 21025. In Manchester foreigners at first are machinists and pressers, wages earned, ib. 21033. Wages earned from, in various departments in Manchester, taken from wage books, ib. 21037. In Manchester quality of clothes made by aliens, ib; 21038. In Manchester room for Jews from London in, in busy time, ib. 21093. Is a seasonal trade, ib. 21099. Wages paid to Jewish workmen in (Letter from Policoff) 22034 (a), Contract: Contract and wholesale branches, descriptions of, Whatley 13671. Contract branch, how affected by alien immi- gration, ib. 13675. Wholesale branch and contract branch dis- tinct, ib. 13676. Workers in wholesale branch flocking into con- tract branch with deplorable results, ib. 13679. Contract branch ; process of competition with wholesale branch, ib. 13683. Lowering of machinists' wages in contract trade, ib. 13689. Contract branch ; the Pimlico standard dete- riorated through action of aliens, ib. 13691. Contract branch ; fair wage clause* evaded in sub-contracts, ib. 13710. Contract branch; inefficiency of inspectors, ib. 13711. hi Wages reduced for khaki jackets through action of greeners, ib. 13717. ' Contractors make' low tenders by means of alien labour, ib. 13722. Contractors evade fair wage clause in case of machinists, ib. 13728. Through want of organisation alien labour is not protected against contractors, ib. 13735. Advisability of appointing practical inspectors in Pimlico, ib. 13761. Machinists suffer through want of organisation in contract orders, ib. 13762. Cutters do not suffer because organised in con- tract orders, ib. 13762. Acceptance "of lowest tender by Government plays into the hands of the employers of alien machinists, ib. 13762. Trades—continued.• Tailoring—continued. Contract—continued. Work should be inspected, and scheduled list of prices on the wall, L. Lyons, 14248. Objectionable when greener labour cuts down prices, Marston 14365. Bespoke: In Westminster bespoke tailors form principal foreign population, Harper 13908. Wages in bespoke trade, L. Lyons 14075. Three classes of bespoke trade ; description of each, ib. 14081. Cutting down of price by aliens in bespoke trade, ib. 14106. Bespoke business, methods of, Marston 14314. Carried on in factories, Marston 14316. Deterioration of, in Leeds, as compared with Belfast and Newcastle, through action of factories and cheap alien labour, ib. 14320. Should be left to English tailors, ib. 14377. Prevails in Sheffield, Murfin 14711. Principally taken to by Jews in Reading, Bull 20477. In Glasgow, wages that may be earned, Pinto 20897. List of advanced wages and prices in, in Glasgow (piece work), ib. 20897. Ready-made Clothing: Centred in Leeds, Marston 14269. Has attracted firms from Glasgow and elsewhere to Leeds, ib. 14270. Large amount of juvenile work made at home by women, ib. 14283. Alien labour employed in manufacture of coats, ib. 14287. Coats are cut in factories, to be made up in workshops, ib. 14441. Sub-division of labour introduced to a certain extent by aliens in, Connellan 15060. Employs many females in Leeds, ib. 15068. Established in Huddersfield by Bairstow and Son, Bairstow 15142. Originally dependent upon alien labour for the coat trade, ib. 15148. Restrictions on alien labour destructive to,, especially the export branch, ib, 15154. Not undertaken by English tailors, ib. 15189. Has become an import trade through advent of Jews, Greenberg 17105. Large export trade mainly due to Jews ; their principle of sub-division, Prag 17852. Sub-division of labour has reached its highest, point, Finn 20280. Female labour in, ib. 20280. Particulars and details of, ib. 20280. Wages earned in, ib. 20280. In Leeds greatly in the hands of English women, . ib. 20280. Average wage earned in, by foreign workmen, ib. 20290. In Leeds, hours of labour and wages, Freed man 20367. Reasons why foreigners employed in Leeds, ib. 20367. ' 1 "Number of Jews employed in, in Leeds, ib. 20372. Created and developed by foreigners in Leeds, ib. 20372. Jews in Leeds become machinists, and work on principle of sub-division more readily than natives, ib. 20372. Prices of suits in Glasgow, Pinto 20905. Credit often given in, ib. 20908. Great development of, by Jews in Glasgow ib. 20896, Tobacco : Mile End, aliens in, underselling English; how they can afford to do so, W. C. Thomas 8660. Cigar manufactories in Stepney, English Jews principally employed in, ib. 8698. Undertakers—St. George-in-the-East, aliens will. not employ Christian undertakers, Bradford 962L.INDEX. 63 "Trades —continued. Walking sticks — Enormously I increased, and largely in hands of foreigners, Vaughan 13178. Waterproof—Largely maintained by Jews, Prag 17863. Wood Carving—Wages earned by foreign work- men, Finn 20291. Wool—Remaining in St. George's, natives employed in, stop near their work, T. E. Williams 18498. Tradesmen : Better class of natives leaving East End cause of loss to, Williams 18501. Natives ruined by aliens : Two butchers in White Horse Lane, Walmer 5185. Greengrocer in High Street, ib. 5186. Stationer in Mile End Road, ib. 5192; Dix 5380, 5428. Milkman, Stepney, Faber 8914, 8921, 8944-46. Ironmonger, Stepney, W. Walker 8956, 8966. Oilshop, Mile End Road, F. James 9213-9228. General shopkeeper, Shoreditch, obliged to sell business at a loss owing to alien competition, W. J. Cox 9457. Greengrocer, Stepney, obliged to give up business, customers turned out by aliens, who deal with each other, W. Say 9553. Milk business ruined by aliens selling adulterated milk at low price, Cavalier 9652. ^Displacement of British by aliens: : A. T. Williams 1575, 1626, 2892, 2982 ; Barrett 2126, 2249, 2257, 2282; Brown 2444; Silver 2628 ; Walmer 5179 ; Dix 5338 ; D. L. Thomas 5467; Rygate (in St. George-in-the-East) 5837, 5857. Bethnal Green, native tradesmen driven out by aliens, J. Foot 6654; Tyler 8642. Redman's Road, Stepney, English tradesmen replaced by aliens, J. Foot 6508, 6564 ; J. W.- Johnson 8558. Mile End Road, aliens displacing English in all businesses, W. C. Thomas 8657. Milkman in Stepney, R. Parkes 8727 ; Faber 8891, 8909. ~ Undertaker, St. George-in-the-East, turned out by Russian Pole, Gilmour 8763. Whitechapel, shoemaker turned out by Jewish landlord, Turner 8525. Ironmonger could not get English to buy business, sold to Russian Jew, W. Walker 8963. Whitechapel, instances in, W. A. Rose 9089- 9096. Shoemaker in St. George-in-the-East, turned out of house, aliens came in, J. Pam 9292-9297, 9322. Cannon Street, Stepney, pork butcher ruined by aliens, W. Say 9580. Shoreditch, English cabinet-makers displaced by aliens, Cole 9603. Stepney, aliens in milk trade ruin English by underselling, Cavalier 9648-9655. Over 100 shopkeepers about Exmouth Street, Stepney, obliged to give up owing to influx of aliens, Kreamer 9697. Bethnal Green, shopkeepers displaced by aliens, Rev. H. W. Eck 10047. Small shopkeepers have suffered most from dis- placement by aliens, J. Brown 11115. Trades Union Clause : Desirable in all Government Tailoring contracts, Whatley 13777. Impossible with alien labour (tailoring trade), Whatley 13779. Trades Unions : Welcome all Jewish co-operation, T. O* Grady 21701. National Amalgamated Furnishing Trades Associa- tion: Evasive practices of employers, whereby aliens are withdrawn from, J. O'^^ady 14025, Union objects to boy apprentices working for aliens, ib. 14034. Trades TJ mom—continued. Costermongers' Union, foreign members not ad- mitted, Hodge 8129. Cabinet-makers' Union, Jewish aliens members of, ib. 8131. Military Tailors' Union, Jewish aliens members of, Hodge 8131. Aliens forming trade unions, W. A. Rose 9107. Boot and shoe factory workers members of, Amstell 12209. Aliens do not co-operate with English Unions, but create unions of their own, ib. 12262. Dislike the system of apprentices in the tailoring trade, Vaughan 13194. Opposed to one workman employing another for profit, L. Lyons 14115. Three, in connection with the tailoring trade; system adopted by each, Richards 20162. Movement in Russia, a political offence, Finn 20265. Hamper British workmen, Burlin 20351. Jews in Leeds strongly support, Freedman 20373. In Leeds ; how they deal with greeners, Freedman 20418. Are not opposed by Synagogues, I. Solomons 20515. Foreign miners in Lanarkshire belong to, Baird 21146. Mining: Object to introduction of foreigners into Lanark- shire, ib. 21159. Wages of aliens depend upon, state of organisa- tion of, Lumsden 14500. Congress : Action of, with reference to restriction of aliens, Finn 20266. Leeds Trade and Labour Council: Membership of, number of trades unions repre- sented, and the industry they represent, Connellan 14990. Consists of Jews and Gentiles, ib. 14994. One society of Jewish operatives only affiliated with, ib. 14995. Resolution passed by, against unrestricted immigration of aliens, ib. 14998. Bakers, East London: Refuse amalgamation with the Master Bakers' Association, Roth 21905. Demand 72 hours per week, ib. 21908. Hours and wages, demanded by, ib. 21908, 21916. Membership of, ib. 21926. National, of Boot and Shoe Operatives : Its membership, objects, Amstell 12291. Membership of, Amstell 13352; T. CP Grady 13518,13594. London branch of, particulars concerning, Amstell 13355 ; T. O'Grady 13519. Proportion of Jews in, Amstell 13357. Co-operation of Jews with, ib. 13361. Native, but not alien membership increasing, ib. 13424. Wages based on machine production in accordance with, for shoe manufacturing of a low class, ib. 13368, 13433. Secretary of T. O'Grady, T. 0'Grady 13514. Jewish branch has dwindled away into the sweating system, ib. 13523, 13608. Great decrease in the London branch since 1890 due to aliens, ib. 13552, 13603. When organised in Leicester, ib. 13597. Wages in trade are maintained, ib. 13586. Started by Jews in 1896, which drew up scale of wages, Bialofski 15097. Membership of, ib. 15092. Small proportion of Jews, ib. 15094. Jewish branches have ceased to exist through action of English Unionists, I. Solomons 20522. Diminished membership of, ib. 20530. Cabinet Makers' Association, Leeds: Constitution of, Thompson 14643. Action of, to ameliorate the condition of greeners, ib. 14658. Is composed of Jews and Gentiles ; difficulty of beeping aliens in, ib. 14666. Membership of, ib. 14675.64 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Trades Unions—continued. Gap Makers: I. Solomons 20498, Membership of, ib. 20517. London Clothiers' Cutters : Whatley 13658. Composed of Jews and Gentiles, and includes contract and wholesale branches, ib. 13659. Membership of, ib. 13663. Is not a national union, Leeds and Bristol having separate ones, ib. 13665. Decision of Committee in view of indiscriminate introduction of alien labour, ib. 13674. Regulation respecting wages, ib. 13687. Approve introduction of machinery, ib. 13740. Oostermongers' Association of Great Britain and Ireland: Decadence of influence, reasons for, Blake 7689. See also Oostermongers. Oostermongers' Union (Hoxton): Its object, Ball 7897, 7967. Its failures, ib. 7904. See also Costermongers. Whitechapel and Spitalfields Costermongers: Formed in 1894-; largest in London; consists of Jewish and Gentile members, Davis 19933. Rules of, ib. 19934. - Does not allow interference with shopkeepers, ib. 19938. Proportion of foreigners to English, ib. 19952. Do utmost to assist costermongers, whether members of union or not, to obey the regu- lations and laws, ib. 19968. National Amalgamated Furnishing Trades' Associa- tion : Membership of, James (J Grady 13965. Jewish branches of, ib. 13968. Rules of, ib. 13970. Wages and hours of, ib. 13970,14030. Conditions of larger shops in, ib. 13987. Conditions of smaller shops outside, ib. 13987. Does not object to skilled labour, ib. 14056, Jewish: Unsatisfactory conditions of, leading to dis- bandment, Whatley 13830. Opposed by 44 Jewish Chronicle," Lyons 14252. Supported by Zionists, ib. 14254. In Manchester and Leeds, well organised, and on a permanent basis; influential with masters, Policoff 21066. Action and character of, in United States, Evans-Gordon 16314. Jewish Tailors—Take steps to facilitate naturalisation, Policoff 21052. Jewish Tailors' Machinists and Pressers, Man- chester : Membership of, percentage of Jewish workmen, Policoff 21026, 21085. Regulations respecting hours of work, overtime, wages, and female labour, ib. 21069. Issue a bill, describing the sweated condition of the tailoring trade, Lyons 21706. Tailors—In Glasgow, is well organised, Pinto 20944. Amalgamated Society of Tailors, Leeds' Branch, Marston 14260. Aliens—Unstable, because aliens desire to become masters, preferring profits to wages, Lewis 17328. United Garment Workers' Association of Great Britain: Chiefly composed of alien Jews, L. Lyons 14061. Very few native or English Jews in, ib. 14173. Trades Unionism : Principles of, readily adopted by Jewish aliens, I. Solomons 20524. But does not flourish with aliens, ib. 20535. Why Jews do not take to, Prag 17852. Trades Unionists—Alien as compared with British; I. Solomons, 20534. Transatlantic Shipping Companies : Agreement made in 1895 between British and foreign companies, Hawkey 1431. The Beaver Line is outside this agreement, ib.• 1437. Steps taken by a German shipping company in 1897 to ascertain whether the British companies were carrying out the agreement, ib. 1532. Transmigrants. (See also Statistical Tables, pp. 5-13, 76-78 of Appendix): Are aliens passing through the United Kingdom to places out of the United Kingdom, H. L. Smith 23* Aliens distinguished in the alien lists as trans- migrants are separately shown in the published returns of alien immigration, ib. 24. Origin of this distinction, ib. 24-31 ; which is a volun- tary and not a statutory one, ib. 186-187, 220. A certain number of aliens not described in the alien lists as transmigrants are ascertained to be such,1 ib. 34-40, 47-51, 119-130. Masters of vessels should see through ticket before declaring an alien to be a transmigrant, ib. 155. Opinion expressed that through-ticket system does not exist, A. White 433. Aliens described in the alien lists as transmigrants nearly all arrive at north-eastern ports, and are _ mostly Scandinavians, H. L. Smith 184, 189. ^ Transmigrants arrive at other ports, but are dis- tinguished as such in the alien lists, ib. 185-196. -jj ' Of the aliens arriving at London some produce through tickets to America, or vouchers showing that they have paid their fares to America or South Africa ; and some have paid abroad for tickets which they obtain from agents after landings Hawkey 888-894, 1422-1428, 1463-1476, 1507- 1511. Many aliens who, on arriving at London, say that they will remain in England are really en route to America; they conceal their destination at insti- gation of emigration agents, ib. 1333-1340, 1364j 1420-1476, 1502-1533. |j Names of agents in London, ib. 1425. Steps taken by leaders of Jewish community to induce Jewish alien immigrants to state their real destina* tion, ib. 1364. Desirability of providing proper temporary accom* modation for transmigrants who come to Londonj and remain a few days, in transit to America o5 South Africa, Murphy 4108, 4898-4916, 5038-5,20r 5087-5092. Reasons why conceal intention to proceed beyond London, Landau 16285. Often conceal their destination, ib. 16414*. Number who proceeded in 1901 and 1902 who had not declared their intention of doing so on arrival ib. 16419. Very many apply to agents in London to be forwarded abroad, ib. 16515. Traffic of, Emanuel 16593. Total number of, and receipts from, during the last ten years, ib. 16632. Correction of reply to question 16510, H. Landau 17895. Total number passing through London in one year, Somper 19051. Appearing in the returns as immigrants, ib. 19078. Number of, arriving in London in one year, ib. 19095* Number of, going to the United States and Africa in one year, ib. 19178. Number paid for by Shipping Company, ib. 19181. In some cases give England as their nominal destina- tion, but proceed elsewhere shortly after, ib. 19186,. How dealt with, in Liverpool; medical examination of, etc., Hope 21469, 21527. In Liverpool; when rejected returned home at their own cost, ib. 21565. Progress of journey from Grimsby to Liverpool, Eddis 21713. How dealt with in Liverpool, ib. 21713. Terms of Shipping Companies' Conference in respect to, ib. 21713. Arriving as immigrants, causes of, ib. 21713. Causes of secrecy observed by, throughout route, ib, 21713 (a). Number reported as, though not stated to be en route in 1902, H. L. Smith 22323. 'INDEX. 65 Transmigr ants- —continued, Reasons for concealing intention to proceed as, after arrival in United Kingdom (Sir Wm. Ward's report). Number leaving Hamburg in 1902, ib. 22331. Large majority of aliens from Libau are, ib. 22536. Suggestions in respect to, ib. 22597. Board of Trade examine contract tickets and medi- cally examine all emigrants bound for ports out of Europe, A. G. Chalmers 22812, 22828. Emigrants' quarters on board and the food which they are to have on the voyage are also examined by Board of Trade officers under the Merchant Shipping Act, ib. 22829. ■g Difficulty of tracing identity of immigrants with transmigrants, ib. 22846. Percentage of transmigrants among passengers from Libau, W. L. Calkin 23375. Trousers—In ready-made clothing trade, made in factories, Marston 14285. Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton—Build houses, for those whom they dishouse, Gordon 17759. Tuberculosis—How dealt with, by Sanitary Committee of Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15400. Tweeds—Cheap, are made in Leeds, Marston 14276. U. Uncertainty of the Law in Eastern Europe—Evans- Gordon 13349. Underground Residences : Illegal occupation of, Loane 4645. In western district, Bygate 5888. Definition of, ib. 5894-5895. Inspection of, ib. 5896-5898. Majority of, not registered, ib. 5899-5902. Method of evading law, respecting, ib. 5903-5904. Undesirable Immigrants : Tests to be applied to detect them on their arrival in the United Kingdom, A. White 931-952. Rejected by America, appear before English courts as criminals ; D. G.'s case, Dickinson 14972. Restriction of, Connellan 15040 ; Cohen 15511, 15659. Should be prevented from starting for England ib. 15550. Definition of, ib. 15554. Desirability of shipping companies to give a bond to re-ship, Joseph 15784. The State need not repatriate, so long as Jewish bodies do so voluntarily, ib. 15856. Are repatriated, Landau 16309. Are 'Very few, ib. 16387. Those arriving absolutely without means and unable to procure means from friends abroad are re- patriated as, ib. 16392. Classification of, ib. 16535. Who should be excluded, Emanuel 16653. If confined to physically or mentally disabled, should be excluded, Montagu 16881. Difficulty of detecting criminals, prostitutes, etc., ib. 17019. Why Jews cannot be classified as such, Greenberg 17114. Criminals and diseased persons should be dissuaded from coming at the port of embarkation, Lewis 17467. Who, as such, should be restricted, Freedman 20431. Criminals, immoral persons, and mentally diseased only should be excluded, Pinto209l9. Rejection of, in Liverpool, requires special machinery, Hope 21506. Should be excluded, definition of, Harris 21686. Possibilities and difficulties in respect to the ex- clusion of, H. L. Smith 22585. Unemployed : In Leeds, Marston 14458. Comparative percentages - of members of trades unions out of work, from 1888 to 1900 inclusive, from Board of Trade returns, Emanuel 16609. 144. United Hebrew Charities, New York : Of United States ; communications of, with Jewish Board of Guardians, Cohen 15318, 15583. Protests of, and result, Joseph 15916. Conjoint committee of the Jewish Board of Guardians and the Russo-Jewish Committee cease to send particulars of emigration cases to, Joseph 15922. Report of; protesting against enormous influx, as Jews invariably come to them after two years ; and that a large number cannot reach a position of economic independence, Montagu 16943. Report of, regarding the insanitary conditions of New York, ib. 16956. United States : Historical sketch of the regulation of immigration by law in, since 1847, Evans-Gordon 16313. Report of the Industrial Commission on Immigration, ib. 16314. Period when immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe commenced, amount of, from June, 190L to June, 1902, ib. 16314. Tendency of present alien immigration to crowd the towns, ib. 16314. Trades in, affected by alien immigration, ib. 16314. Action and character of Jewish Trades Unions in, ib. 16314. Occupations of Jewish arrivals in 1902, ib. 16314. Jews in, after first two years of residence, fall heavily upon the Relief Society, ib. 16314. Overcrowding of aliens in, in the towns, and its effects, ib. 16314. Number of transmigrants to, during the last 10 years, Emanuel 16632. Number of Jews in, Montagu 16869. Proportion of foreign to native population, ib. 16977. Do not exclude immigrants because not possessed of means, Mr. Justice Brown's remarks on subject,, Greenberg 17092. Particulars of rejections by, H. L Smith 22225. Difficulties in respect to rejections in, ib. 22297. United Steamships Company : Number of alien immigrants brought over per steamer, Calkin 23373. Produce and ponies brought in steamers carrying- immigrants necessitate quick transit, ib. 23386, United Synagogue: Distributes blankets to persons married in the- synagogue in England, Cohen 15635. Has special organisation for the visitation of Jewish prisoners, and publishes returns, Joseph 15762. Unskilled Labour: Required in the development of boot and shoe- workshop, Amstell 12207. Promotes cheapness, but menaces efficiency, ib. 12273. Does not generally improve in the boot and shoe trade, ib. 12365. London Clothiers' Cutters' Trade Union suggest test of efficiency as a preventive of, Whatley 13749. Should be subjected to a pecuniary test, ib. 13807. Affects resident foreigners as well as natives, Con- nellan 15072. Is useful in England, Landau 16539. Y. Vagrancy Act : Effect of, in checking immoral trading, Coote 12650. Has diminished those who live on the prostitution! of women, Hayer 13002. Very difficult to administer through action of women, Dickinson 14942. Suggestion to apply, to criminal aliens, Vincent 22441. Vaccination : .More appreciated by foreigners (Germans) than by English, Sykes 13337. Act in respect to, obeyed more willingly by foreigners ;* than natives, Ward 18311. Aliens in Whitechapel seeking, ib. 18314. Jewish community are particular as to, Pinto 20883. Feelings of Jews towards, in Manchester, Niven- 2I7583 I66 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Valuation (Metropolis) Act—Object of, and unequal ', treatment of houses and warehouses by, Joseph 15798. Vice—Traffic in, mainly organised by foreigners, Walters 13089. Vienna—Shoes imported from, Weber 19464. Vilna—Evans-Gordon 13349. Vincent, Sir Howard : Letter to Lord Salisbury on alien immigration, Emanuel 16574. His remarks relating to those " not stated to be en route," ib. 16579, 16582. Letter of, in regard to Census figures, ib. 16597. Vital Statistics : Of 'Stepney and Southwark, S. Murphy 3949. Appendix, Table LXXIV. High birth rate in Stepney, ib. 3957. Low death rate amongst Jewish children iA Stepney, causes of, ib. 3961 ; Thomas 5785, 5795. Death rate depends on age distribution, ib. 5785. Of St. Pancras, Sykes 13323. Of Jews in America, as shown by the birth and death rate, Creenberg 17118. Of Jews in Russia, as shown by the birth and death rate, ib. 17119. Of Jews in America showing their longevity, ib. 17121. Lower in Whitechapel than St. George's or Lime- house, Thomas 5800. Death rate from consumption increased, ib. 5800. Causes of high rate, ib. 5785-5795. Infant mortality, general increase in London, but decrease in Stepney, 8. Murphy 3960. ' Causes of decrease in Stepney, ib. 3963, 4884. Voluntary Agency—Preferable, in dealing with dis- semination, H.H. Gordon 17808. W. Wages : Cradley Heath chain-maker's, compared with those of Stepney tailors, Evans 11726-12122. Slipper-makers', ib. 11727. Tailors', ib. 11728. Home workers', ib. 11729-30. 1 Wage books kept by manufacturers, ib. 12117-12121.- Aliens receive enough for subsistence for their first 1 week's work on arriving in this country, ib. 11685, 11828, 12158. Foreign workman is getting better paid than for- merly, as he is able to do more work (see Sub- division of Labour and Machinery), ib. 11714. Piece-workers who work beyond legal hours earn ; more, ib. 11725. Aliens earn good wages, ib. 11726; better than natives, ib. 12104-12113. Comparison of earnings of Lancashire calico printer or Effect of aliens upon wages of natives indirect, but has caused reduction and insecurity of employ- ment, Amstell 12209. Schedule of piece-work wages in boot and shoe trade, drawn up by the Board of Conciliation and Arbitration, ib. 12209. In workshops to aliens very irregular; in factories to natives on a higher scale in the boot and shoe trade, ib. 12209. Of greeners at first very small, Vaughan 13145. Have fallen in the clothing trade in Leeds, Marston 14463. In mines by piece-work, Lumsden 14515. Scale of, drawn up by Jewish Boot and Shoe Union in Leeds, in 1896, Bialofshi 15099. Of aliens, as published in the report of the Bureau Committee of the Russo-Jewish Committee, Joseph 16173. Statement showing the number of persons affected by changes in wages, in all trades combined, from 1888-1900 inclusive, Emanuel 16611. Also in clothing trade, 16611. Of alien Jews, at first low, but soon become good, Barneit 17523. In rubber trade, Abrahams 18899, 18906, 18931. Wages—continued. Natives and foreigners paid at same rates, ib. 18935. In ladies' tailoring, Cohen 18968, 18984 ; paid weekly all the year round, ib. 18982, 19017-19. No reduction of, in boot and shoe trade, Weber 19302. Of aliens', in boot and shoe trade, ib. 19380, 19392, 19524. Natives in boot and shoe trade receive more, than aliens, ib. 19303. In tailoring trade (various branches), Wright 19655, 19666, 19679, 19730, 19736. " Greeners' " earnings per day in tailoring, ib. 19664, 19730. Women's, in tailoring, ib. 19755. In bakers' trade, Jewish as compared with Gentile, Levy 20071. In tailoring trade, of aliens higher than those of British workmen, Richards 20140. In the ready-made clothing trade, in Leeds, Freedman 20367. Of greeners, in Leeds, ib. 20422. In the tailoring trade in Manchester are the same as in London, Policoff 21005. Earned in various departments of the tailoring trade in Manchester, ib. 21037. Earned in Jewish workshops higher than those earned in factories in Leeds, ib. 21050. In the boot trade very low in 1901 led to a strike amongst journeymen, 0'Grady 21701. Demanded by the East London Bakers' Union, Roth 21916. Earned by aliens in Scotch mines same as those earned by natives, Ronaldson 22117. Advance in, in boot and shoe trade, II. L. Smith 22501. " Change of wages," Board of Trade definition of term, H. L. Smith 22656. Other senses in which same term is correctly used, ib. 22656. Higher rate of wages does not necessarily mean a larger income, ib. 22657. Difficulty of comparing rates of wages, ib. 22657. " Sweating" meanings attached to word by various witnesses, ib. 22657, 22659. Alien miners content to work at lower rate than natives, D. Gilmour 23039. Great increase of wage cases, through aliens in Magistrates' Court obstructing other business, Haden Corser 12839. Cases connected with, ib. 12883. Cases block other court business, ib. 12908. Disputes should not be settled by the Beth Din, a Jewish tribunal, Montagu 17062. Standard of: Fixed by unions on no arbitrary basis, Amstell 13508. In shoe manufacture, in case of aliens very low, T. (J Grady 13521. Waistcoats—In ready-made tailoring trade made in factories, Marston 14285. Waiters—Many in Westminster district, Harper 13909. Waste Products—Factory established- for the utilisa- tion of, in Tottenham, Burlin 20307. Wapping : Cornwall Street, outbreaks among aliens, Hyder 7443. Old Gravel Lane, English turn aliens out, Kreamer 9699. Warehouses—Reduce dwelling - house accommodation near the City, Joseph 16104. Warsaw—Evans-Gordon 13349. Waterside Trade—Much reduced in bulk, and has changed its character, Joseph 16087. " Weatheritt v. Cantlay " : Effect of in respect to block dwellings, Murphy 4020 ; Foot 6613, 6836. Has not affected registration of houses in Finsbury Newman 12560. How increases immorality, Dickinson 14985.INDEX. 67 Weaving Industry—Disappeared from Bethnal Green, causing replacement of population, Joseph 16096. Wellingborough—Men's boot made at, Weber 19306. West Central Jewish Club and Institute—Fersht 20644. West End—Land, value of, Lewis Solomon 18160. West Central London : Most cosmopolitan in population, Fersht 20649. A large migration of Jews into, from the East End, as their condition improves, ib. 20656. Great displacement of residents by the erection of warehouses and business premises in, ib. 20668. Overcrowding in, not attributable to foreigners, ib. 20668. Rents in, largely increased, ib. 20676. Gambling in, extensive, ib. 20693. Steps taken by local authorities to check immorality in, ib. 20693. West Central Zionist Society—Fersht 20645. West End Clothiers' Company, Limited : Bespoke and contracting tailors ; number of hands employed; proportion of aliens (Jews), Richards 20137, 20146. Number of British and aliens employed in Sheffield, ib. 20141, 20179. Conditions of contract under the Sheffield Cor- poration, ib. 20143. Employ no greeners, ib. 20207. West London Mission—Rev. C. Ensor Walters 13073. Westminster : Table 1a, giving total population, Harper 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13874. Table Ib, giving number of persons born in foreign countries, ib. 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13900. Table Id, giving percentage of British and foreign born population to total population, ib. 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13916. Table 1e, showing net movement of the whole popu- lation, ib. 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13926. Table 3a, dealing with overcrowding in, ib. 13873. Evidence thereon, ib. 13935. Table 3b, dealing with overcrowding in the enu- : meration districts, in each registration sub-district, of, ib. 13873. Table lc., giving number of British subjects in, ib. 13873. Causes of decrease in population, ib. 13885. Foreigners in, chiefly bespoke tailors, also waiters and restaurateurs, ib. 13908. Population of, decrease in proportion of native born, and increase in proportion of alien born, ib. 13925. Overcrowding in, decreased since 1891, ib. 13939. Italians preponderate in, ib. 13960; and Table 13961 Table giving country of birth of foreigners in, ib. 13961. Rents as high in, as in Stepney, Joseph 16110, 16115. Housing scheme of Corporation of the City of West- minster, in Regency Street, ib. 16111. Proportion of foreigners in, Emanuel 16601, Westminster Jews' Free School—Numbers of pupils both British Jews and Foreign Jews, Lang 20574, 20633. White, Arnold—His criticism on statistics of Jewish Year Book controvected, Qreenberg 17090. Whitechapel : Area, McLeod 671 ; Loane 4528 ; Emanuel 16609. Boundaries, Loane 4534-4537. Basements, illegal occupation of, ib. 4645-4648. Bye-laws under Public Health Act, Murphy 3993 ; Loane 4580. Rent limit in, Murphy 4005-4011, 4049-4053; Loane 4580. Houses Clearances of, between 1881 and 1900, Loane 4492-4494, 4512-4518. Increase of population in same period, ib. 4495-4497. 6144, itechapel—continued. Index. Houses—continued. Royal Mint Street clearance, ib. 4498-4511, 4698-4704. Decrease in number of inhabited houses, but increase of population between 1891 and 1901, Macleod 672-676, 681, 684; A. White 1070- 1078. Decrease in number of single tenement houses in same period, A. White 1074-1075. Decrease in number in 10 years, Foot 6909; Brown 11104. Model Dwellings: Health conditions of, Loane 4519-4522. Aliens excluded from some blocks, but a large proportion of the occupants of model, dwellings are aliens, ib. 4523-4527. Overcrowding: Statistics of, in tenements of less than five rooms as shown by Census enumerations of 1891 and 1901, Murphy 3926-3948. Causes to which due, ib. 4733-4734. Illustrations of, Loane 456] -4572, 4578. And of insanitary habits of aliens, ib. 4571-4577. Steps taken by local authorities to remedy, ib. 4579-4625 ; Murphy 4972-4989. Action taken by London County Council, ib. 4085-4088. Possibility of dealing with, by systematic application of the sanitary law, ib. 4102. By registration and inspection of all tenement houses, Loane 4584 ; Murphy 5155. Poor Law Relief (Outdoor): Decrease of 60 per cent, in 10 years, Silver 2766. Alien cases before Board of Guardians, Rose 9110. Aliens in infirmary in 1901 y Brown 11023. In workhouse, 11024. Medical relief, 11033. Aliens receiving relief in 1900. Cohen 15388. Population, density of, Loane 4529-4531 : Davies 9710. Population, foreign, ratio to total population in various years, Murphy 3916 ; Loane 4484-4491. Vital statistics, Murphy 3949-3966 ; Loane 4538- 4560. Aliens in, increasing number, Ryder 7313. Former inhabitants, occupations of, ib. 7315. Aliens driving out former inhabitants, ib. 7320. Aliens, incoming, habits and conduct of, ib. 7330- 7348. Alien women, immorality, increase^, ib. 7349. Shops, character of, altered by aliens, ib. 7354. Loafers or casuals, ib. 7357. Aliens chiefly Russian and Polish Jews, ib. 7363.. Gambling introduced in district by aliens, ib. 7365. " H" Police Division, districts included in, S. White 7539. Co-operative stores ruined by influx of aliens into, ib. 7551. " Christian Home " nest of criminals, arrests made in, ib. 7597. Illicit stills raided in, ib. 7587, 7610-7626. A district in 1881 consisting entirely of English population, now entirely of foreign, Rose 9076- 9079. Derwood and Winthrop Streets, houses bought by Davis, rents raised, English tenants displaced, houses filled with aliens, ib. 9129. Roumanian Laundry, occupiers let their beds during day to bakers, Ayres 9420. St. Jude's Parish, day population, Rev. E. C. Carter 10235. Thrawl Street, Flower and Dean Street. , block dwellings replacing old houses, J. Brown 11017. Illegitimate Jewish children born in infirmary during 1901, ib. 11045. Imbeciles and lunatics chargeable to union, pro- portion of aliens, ib. 11051. Houses and population, statistics of, ib. ,11126. Security of life and property in, ib. 11146. English and alien population, relative proportions, ib. 11149. I 268 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: W hitech apel—continued. Alien colony, extension of, during 50 years, ib. 11162. Increase of population since 1880, ib. 11285. Increase of rents, Harper 11506. In western parts of, population consists almost entirely of English Jews, Lewis 17246. In extreme south of, very few Jews, ib. 17249. Parts of, much improved by advent of Jews, ib. 17249. Is constantly receiving new arrivals, Barnett 17548. Number of inhabited houses in, stationary from 1841 to 1851, has decreased since 1851, H. H. Gordon 17679. Foreign names over shops, increased number of, no indication of increased foreign population, Mrs. L. A. Levy 17958-61. Workshops in, more overcrowded than those in Soho, Hamer 17965. Sanitary condition and administration of, influence of alien immigrants on, ib. 17968. Numbers of Russian and Polish immigrants in 1894 in, ib. 17968. Bye-laws against overcrowding in, not generally enforced, owing to inadequate number of inspec- tors, ib. 17968, 17971. Results of sanitary inspection in 1894 compared with results from Camberwell, Plumstead, and St. Pancras in 1897, 1898, ib. 17971. Table showing result of sanitary inspection of houses, ib. 17971. Further explanation of, 17974-89, 18023-32. Less overcrowded in 1894 than Kensington (1899), St. Pancras (1898), Lambeth (1895), ib. 17993. Alien population greater than in Limehouse, St. George's, or Mile End, ib. 17994. Sanitary inspectors appointed by vestry, ib. 18039. Dr. Hamer, list of houses in, visited by, ib. 18136. Increased accommodation provided in Board schools, Bruce 18380. Best vaccinated district in London, Ward 18314., Schools filled with Jews owing to alien immigration Bruce 18327. Area of overcrowding becoming more widely spread in, ib. 18343. Playground space and air more needed in, than accommodation, ib. 18385. St. Mary's School, Christian children attending, Mansfield 18395-6. Whitechapel and Spitalfields Costermongers' Union : Number of men in, Jews and Christians, J. B. Lyons 19855, 19883. The continuous arrival of aliens advantageous to trade, ib. 19878, 19881. Whitechapel Union—Jews chargeable to, on 25th March, 1903, their relative number to native paupers, Harris 21653. White Slave Traffic—Its lucrative nature, Coote 12579. Wholesale Co-operative Stores, Limited—Erection of, has caused overcrowding, Landau 16293. Wife-desertion : Aliens guilty of, should not be admitted, A. White 948. Alien Jews desert wives for other women, Davies 9805-9846. Not common amongst aliens in Manchester, J. Gilmour 21393. Wife and Children Desertion : Instance in Whitechapel of desertion of children, J. Brown 11056. Collusion between husband and wife in many apparent cases, ib. 11061, Common amongst alien, Lewis 17329. Wishaw Coal Company, Motherwell—Lumsden 14472. Total number of miners employed in, ib. 14483- 14490. Number of aliens employed in, ib. 14483. Winterton Estate, See Chapman Estate. Witnesses : Great difficulty of getting them to appear before the Royal Commission, A. T. Williams 2962-2972. Plenty of foreign Jews who are in favour of restriction of immigration would give evidence, but fear to do so, Z. Solomons 3053-3057. Fear of a witness that he will be boycotted, J. Lyons 3240-3244. Wollf, Dr.—Figures of, relating to Jewish population : how obtained, Joseph 15969. Women, Employment of : Employed in workshops during illegal hours, Evans 11657, 11814. Christian and Jewish, employed by Jewish owner of ladies' tailoring factory, M. Cohen 18976. Kind of work done by, wages of, ib. 18979-80. Machinists in boot and shoe trade always out-workers, Weber 19591, 19595. Ready-made clothing 40 years ago chiefly made by, Wright 19655. Displaced by foreign Jews in ready-made tailoring, ib. 19677. Work and wages of, in tailoring trade, ib. 19755. Workhouses and Infirmaries (London) : Maximum number of Jewish inmates in 1901, accord- ing to statistics of the United Synagogue, Joseph 15774, 16264. The percentage of the Jewish population compared with the Census of the general population in workhouses and infirmaries, 15777. Workhouses (Prestwich and Manchester)—Small number of Jews in, Isaacs 20792. Working Classes—Preference of working people for living in towns, Hodge 8108. Workmen : Tottenham, accommodation for,,L. Solomon 18246. Lebus, Flatau, number of, employed by, at Totten- ham, ib. 18249. In Tottenham factories, Lebus' and Flatau's, living in Stepney, ib. Jews in Tottenham factories, ib. 18264. Workmen's Dwellings : Sanitary inspection of, by Dr. Hamer, Hamer 18106. Block of, example of housing capacity of, Lewis Solomon 18162. Block dwellings, measures taken by London County Council to prevent overcrowding in, Bruce 18366. Workmen's Trains : East End, train service from, inadequate since 1898, Foot 6695. Increased facilities of locomotion, Harper 11574. Needs improvement to carry out dissemination scheme, Emanuel 16601. Workrooms—In dwelling-houses in Manchester, Niven 21799. Workshops : In Stepney, number of, classification of, distinction in nationality, D. L. Thomas 5803-5813. How differs from factory, ib. 5814-5816. Definition of, Evans 11635. Work done therein, ib. 11635, 11638. Visits to, by inspectors, ib. 11638. Described as any place where work is done, ib. 11637. Offenders in connection with, cautioned or proceeded against, ib. 11639. Offenders more numerous amongst aliens than natives, ib. 11641. Nuisances due generally to ignorance of law, ib. 11641. Evasions of Factory Act in connection with. More frequent in Soho than in Stepney, ib. 11652. Duty of occupiers respecting sending of notices to factory inspector, ib. 11655. Certification in all cases necessary, as required by the County Council, where more than 40 are em- ployed advisable, ib. 11655, 11910. Decisions of magistrates in connection with, ib. 11642.INDEX. w orkshops—continued. Open for business purposes seven days a week, ib. 11659. Stipulation of City manufacturers that the work should be done within specified distance cause of erection of new, ib. 11659. Dwelling-houses converted into, ib. 11661. Gardens and back yards built over for, ib. 11667, 11670. Licensed houses utilised as, ib. 11680. Dangers of insanitary workshops, ib. 11685. Advisability of restricting number of small, ib. 11692, 11906-8. Contractors to the Government opening seven days a week, ib. 11705. Improvements in condition of Jewish workshops, ib. 11733. Increased rents in Albert Square due to the building of, in rear of premises, ib. 11735. Domestic rooms used as, gradual extinction of, due to the building of new workshops in Stepney, ib. 11736, 11885-86. Domestic rooms used as, in Soho, bad sanitary condition of, ib. 11880-84. Sittings rented in Soho, principally by aliens, in tailoring and jewellery, ib. 11888. I Different nationalities of workers in Soho, ib. 11892. Class of work done in large workshops of Soho, where sittings are rented, ib. 11893. Definition of " domestic workshop" under the Act, ib. 11947, 12170. Definition of " tenemented workshop," ib. 12171. Example of, in Tenter Street, Goodman s Fields, ib. 12171. Inspection of, Vaughan 13124. ^Number of, in North of London, 13131. Number of alien, in North of London, 13132. ' Sanitary arrangements of, English and foreign much ; the same. Vaughan 13131. Concession in respect to, by masters after the strike l of 1890, T. 0? Grady 13532. , Workers in, must live near, Joseph 16147. Too many built in Stepney in yards of houses, Lewis 17380. More overcrowded in Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town than in Soho, Hamer 17965. Private dwellings constructed for use as, ib. 19767 ; number of persons occupying, ib. 17968. Dwelling-houses replaced by cause overcrowding and increase of rents in remaining houses of district, Ward 18312. Homework, system of, not introduced by alien ] immigrants, Williams 18537. -indoor boot and shoe workshops, an established fact since strike of 1890, Cohen 20062. Strike for, in 1890, in lieu of home work in the boot and shoe trade, Solomons 20509. Slum property is bought up, and special workshops are being erected, ib. 20544. \ ^Should be brought under the Factory Acts, ib. 20547. Registration of, in West Central London desirable, Fersht 20706. Jewish : Wages earned in, in Leeds, higher than those earned in factories, Policoff 21050. Ooats made in, are of inferior quality, Marston 14468. Workshops—continued. Blake's invention developed boot and shoe workshops, Amstdl 12207. Multiplication of, caused competition and fall in prices, ib. 12209. Tailors *. ;P Jewish men exclusively employed in, in Leeds, Marston 14291. Number of, in Leeds, ib. 14293. Number of, in Leeds occupied by Jews, ib. 14294. Aliens preponderate in Jewish workshops in Leeds, ib. 14300. No sweating in, when well managed in Leeds,ib., 1^14306. Certification of—Evans 11655, 11910, 11911. vVorship Street Police Court : Area of jurisdiction, Haden Corser 12827. Number of charges and summonses, ib. 12828. Difficulty in keeping streets clear for traffic through aliens, ib. 12828. Criminal charges in 1902, ib. 12850. Area of, consisting of four police divisions, ib. 12890. Variety of English and foreign population under its jurisdiction, ib. 12892. Gambling dens and night-house cases in 1902, ib. 12896. Difficulty of magistrate in respect to overcrowding, ib. 12924. , y Worsteds, Cheap—Produced in Bradford, Marston 14272; Y. Yiddish : Is the jargon spoken by Russian and Polish Jews, H. L. Smith 150. Not understood by police, Hyder 7473. Its origin and etymology, L. Lyons 14177. Should be regarded as a European language, Montagu 16889. The printing of notices of the Borough Council of Stepney due to English initiation, Gordon 17621. Missionaries and politicians adopt Yiddish advertise- ments and posters, ib. 17622. Book published in, by Russo-Jewish Committee in London to assist aliens to learn English, Somber 19124. Rules printed in, by some mine-owners in Lanark- shire, Baird 21117. York—Overcrowding in, A. White 463. " Yorkshire Post "—Comments of, on slipper trade in Leeds, Connellan 15016. Z. Zionism—Views on, Emanuel 16833. Zionists : Origin of movement, T. Herzl 6244. First congress, ib. 6244. Tenets and aims of followers, ib. 6422, 6475. Favourable to Jewish trades unions, L. Lyons 14254. Freedom to organise Zionist societies in England an attraction to Jewish immigrants, A. White 370-373. Reference to, in Mr. Lewis's essay in " The Jew in London," ib. 1068.[ 70 ]LIST OF WITNESSES. 71 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. List of Witnesses, arranged according to certain classifications. (N.B. —Witnesses, though they may be classified under particular headings, gave also, in very many instances, general evidence.) Classification. Name Capacity in which Witness appeared. Census Authorities. Clergy. Connected with Education. Connected with the Jewish Board of Guardians and other Charitable Institutions. Magisterial and Police. Manu- ( facturers. McLeod. R. Lovell, A. H.- Myers, J. M. Vincent, J. ... Barnett, The Rev. Canon Canney, The Rev. E. - Carter, The Rev. E. 0. Dalton, The Rev. A. E. - Davies, The Rev. W. H. - Eck, The Rev. H. V. - Headlam, The Rev. Stewart Walters, The Rev. C. Ensor - Bruce, G. L. Butcher, F. H. - Headlam, The Rev. Stewart Mansfield, Ch. Mather, S. - Mathews, Wm. Ch. Nugent, W. A. - Rawden, J. W. P. Cohen, L. L. Ehrenburg, T. Fersht, B. A. Isaacs, T. A. Landau, H. Montagu, Sir Samuel, Bart. - Somper, Joseph - Bradford, Sir Wm. R. C. - Clayton, Major E. G. - Corser, Iladen De Rutzen, Sir Albert Dickinson, John Gilmour, James Hayer, John Henry, E. R. Hvder, Richard McConnell, W. R., K.C. - Mead, Frederick - Mulvany, John - Newton, Sir Alfred White. Stephen Abrahams, B. Bairstow, J. O. *Booth, W. - Burlin, A. L. Cohen, M. - Kramrisch, J. *Pearce, S. J. Pinto, J. Richards, A. Ea Silverstone, Wm Solomons, Z. Weber, L, Wright, G. Registrar General. Census enumerator. ditto ditto. ' , J ditto ditto. Warden of Toynbee Hall. Rector of St. Peter's, Saffron HilL Vicar of St. Jude's, Whitechapels . Rector of Stepney. Rector of Spitalfields. Rector of Bethnal Green. Chairman of the Evening Continuation Schools Com- mittee : London School Board. West London Mission Member of School Board. Head Master of the Christian Street Board School, Stepney. See above. Head Teacher of the Settles Street Board School, Stepney. Divisional Superintendent of the Tower Hamlets Division of the London School Board. School Board Visitor in the Hackney Division. Head Master of the Betts Street Board School, Stepney. Head Master of the Deal Street Board. School, Stepney. President of the Jewish Board of Guardians. Connected with several Jewish Charities. President of certain Jewish organisation in West Central District of London. Clerk to the Manchester Jewish Board of Guardians. President of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter. President of the Federation of Synagogues, etc. Superintendent of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter. Late Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. Secretary to the Prison Commission. Magistrate of Worship Street Police Court. Chief Magistrate at Bow Street Police Court. Magistrate of Thames Police Court. Superintendent (B. Div.) of the Manchester City Police. Inspector (C. Div.) Metropolitan Police. Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. Sub-Divisional Inspector. II. Division. Chairman of the County of London Sessions' Magistrate of Thames Police Court. Chief Superintendent, H. Division. Commissioner of the Central Criminal Court. Ex-Inspector of the Criminal Investigation Department, Waterproof Manufacturer. , Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer. 1 Printer. Manufacturing Chemist at Burton-on-Trent. Mantle Manufacturer. Manager of a Cigarette Factory at Glasgow Mineral Water Manufacturer. Wholesale Clothing Manufacturer, Glasgow; Manager to the West End Clothiers' Company. Shoe Manufacturer. Manager of Shoe Factory. Shoe Manufacturer. j Factory Manager to Chas. Bakej and Co.. Tailors. h These witnesses gave evidence at meetings held in Stepney [see page 142).72 ROYAL COMMISSION OX ALIEN IMMIGRATION List of Witnesses arranged according to certain classifications. Classification. Name. Capacity in which Witness appeared. Connected with the Mining Industry. Official. Workers in Sundry Trades in ^ East End* Representa- tives of Trades Unions. Baird, R. • Gilmour, I). Lumsden, R. Ronaldson, J. M. Smillie, R. Barrett, C. Birch, F. H. Chalmers, Captain A. G. Clayton, Major L. G. - Evans, H. Foot, John Hamer, Wm. H., Dr. - Harper, Edgar - Hart, W. E. Hawkey, Thos. - Highmore, N. J. Hope, E. W., Dr. Hough, E. Leadam Jones, H. C. Lithiby, John Loane, Joseph, Dr. McLeod, R. M.urphy, S. F., Dr. Newman, Geo., Dr. Niven, James, Dr. Ronaldson, J. M. Rygate, B. R., Dr. Smith, H. LI. - Sykes, J. F., Dr. Thomas, D. L., Dr. Vaughan, A. P. - Ward, W. H. - Williams, H., Dr. " A." Amstell, S. V. - *Cavalier, A. W. - Cohen, W. D. - Coleman, J. * Coles , Wm. *Cox, Wm. Jais. - *Kreamer, J. A. - Lyons, J. Onion, F. H. *Pam, Jos, - Sealey, D. Sharpe, R. *Shead, J. - *Simmons. Th'os. Tuckwood, Tbos. * Turner, Fk. I*Tyler, A. - Amstell, S. V. Ball, Wm. - Bialofski, L. Blake, H. W. Connellan, 0. Davis, Ben. Finn, J. Freedmtui; S. Gilmour, D. Lew, S Secretary to the Lanarkshire Coal Masters' Association^ Secretary to the Lanarkshire Miners' Association. Employed in a Lanarkshire Colliery. Mines Inspector ; West of Scotland. President of the Scottish Miners' Federation. Registrar of Births and Deaths in St. George-in-the- East. Relieving Officer, Holborn Union. Professional member of the Marine Department. Secretary to the Prison Commission. Assistant Inspector of Factories. Chief Sanitary Inspector, Bethnal Green. Assistant Medical Officer of Health, L.C.C. Statistical Officer, L.C.C. Deputy Town Clerk of Sheffield. Examining Qfficer of Customs. Senior Assistant Solicitor of Inland Revenue. Medical Officer of Health of Liverpool. Senior Official Receiver in Bankruptcy. Town Clerk and Solicitor to the Borough of Holborn. Assistant Secretary of the Local Government Board. Late Medical Officer of Health (Whitechapel). Registrar-General. Medical Officer of Health of the Administrative County of London, Medical Officer of Health (Finsbury). Midical Officer of Health (Manchester). Mines Inspector, West of Scotland. Public Vaccinator to the District of St. Georges-in-the- East. Deputy Comptroller-General of the Commercial,. Labour, and Statistical Department, Board of Trade. Medical Officer of Health (St. Pancras). Medical Officer of Health (Stepney). Factory Inspector in the North of London. Vaccination Officer (Bethnal Green). Medical Officer of Health for the Port of London. Shoemaker. Boot clicker, etc. Milk seller. Boot laster. Boot clicker. Sawyer. Plumber. Pianoforte timer. Slipper maker. Boot clicker. Shoemaker. Employe at Beckton Gasworks.; Street vendor. Cabinet maker. Employe at Beckton Gasworks. Employe at Beckton Gasworks.' Shoe maker. Basket maker. Delegate, London Metropolitan Branch of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives. Chairman of jthe Hoxton Costermongers' Union. Representative of National Union of Boot ;and Shoe Operatives, Leeds Branch. President of the Costermongers' Association. Secretary to the Leeds Trades and Labour Council. Secretary to the Whitechapel and Spitalftelds Coster- mongers' Union. Secretary to ;the Mantle Makers' Union. Secretary to the Leeds Jewish Tailors' Machinists' and Pressers' Trade Union. General Secretary to the Lanarkshire Miners' Associa- tion. Chairman, London Jewish Master Bakers' Society. * These witnesses gave evidence at meetings held in Stepney {see page 142).LISt OF WITNESSES: 73 List of Witnesses arranged according to certain classifications. Classification. J._ Name. Capacity in which Witness appeared. Representa- tives of Trade Unions— continued. Tradesmen in ( East End. not specially classified. Lyons, L. - Lyons, J. B. Marston, Wm. Murfin, Joe 0'Grady, J. 0'Grady, T. Phillips, Moss Policoff, I>. Roth, J. Solomons, Isidore Smillie, R. - Thompson, E. H. Whatley, Thos. Wm. ♦Bradford, William Brown, G. - ♦Faber, John ♦Francis, James - ♦Gillmore, Jas. W. ♦Holditch, Robt. - ♦James, Mrs. F. - ♦Say, Wm. - ♦Thomas, W. G. - ♦Trott, Walter ♦Walker, Wm. ♦Axelrad, J. ♦Ayres, Mrs. Belcher, W. Brown, James - Bull, A. H. Burton, J. L. Calkin, W. L. Chambers, Fk. Wm. - Coote, Wm. Alex. Denniss, Capt. E. W. - Dix, Geo. A. Eddis, F. E. Emanuel, Gh. H. L. - Garrett, G. H. - Evans-Gordon, Major W. E, M. P. Gordon, H. Greenberg, L. J. - Harris, John Herzl, Th. Dr. - Hodge, Harold - Johnson, J. W. - Joseph, N. S. ■ ♦Kilner, S. E. - Lang, Wm. Levy, Mrs. Lewis, Harry S. - Martin, J. W. Moens, W. J. 0. - ♦Parkes, R. - Prag, Jos. - General Secretary to the United Garment Workers of Great Britain. President of the Whitechapel and Spitalfields Coster- mongers' Union. Secretary to the Amalgamated Society of Tailors, Leeds Branch. Secretary to the Amalgamated Society of Tailors, Sheffield Branch. Secretary to the National Amalgamated Furnishing Association. Secretary to the Metropolitan Branch of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives. Past President of the Whitechapel and Spitalfields Costermongers' Union. Secretary to the Jewish Tailors' Machinists' and Pressers' Trade Union. Secretary to the East London Bakers' Union. Secretary to the Cap Makers' Trade Union. President of the Scottish Miners' Federation. Representative of the Alliance of Cabinet Makers' Asso- ciation in Leeds. Member of Executive of the London Clothiers' Cutters' Trade Association. Undertaker. Photographer. Milkman. Haberdasher. Undertaker. fButcher. Keeps a lamp and oil shop. Umbrella Maker and Hawker Tobacconist Fruiterer and Greengrocer. Ex-Ironmonger and Tinman. Distressed English Jew, Midwife. Manager to the Chapman Estate, a Borough Councillor of Stepney. Chairman of the Whitechapel Board of Guardians, etc. Mayor of Reading. Editor of the " Shoe and Leather Record Agent of the Libau Shipping Company. Manager of the Netherlands Steamship Company. Secretary to the National Vigilance Association. A Gentile interested in Jewish Institutions. Home and Insurance Agent in Stepney. Secretary to the Royal Commission on Alien Immi- gration. |Secretary and Solicitor to the Jewish Board of Deputies. East End Missionary. M.P. for Stepney, Member of the Royal Commission on Alien Immigration. Engineer: Member of the Borough Council (Stepney). Publisher of the Jewish Year Book. Alderman of the Borough of Whitechapel, etc. President of the Zionist Congress. Member of the Mansion House Housing Council. Chairman of the British Brothers' League. Chairman of the Conjoint Committee of the United Council of the Russo-Jewish Committee and Jewish Board of Guardians, etc. Solicitor (appeared to complain why witness Gillmore received notice to quit).| President of the Ophthalmological Society of the United Kingdom. District Visitor in Manchester and East End of London Joint Author of the " Jew in London." A Borough Councillor of Stepney. Ex-Mayor of Reading Ex-Presidentfof the Huguenot Society of London. Ex-Deputy-Chairman of the British Brothers League. Councillor of the Borough of St. Pancras. 6144. * These witnesses gave evidence at meetings held in Stepney {see page 142). K74 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. List of Witnesses arranged according to certain classifications. Classification. Name. Capacity in which Witness appeared. / *Rose, Wm. A. - Member of the Board of Guardians of WhitechapeL Witnesses Silver, J. L. - ; Solomon, L. Tyrrell, F. A. 0. - Vincent, Col. Sir Howard - Alderman of the Borough Council of Stepney. Architect to the Federation of Synagogues. Surgical Officer to the Royal London Ophthalmic Hospital. M.P. for one of the Divisions of Sheffield. not Walmer, A. A resident in Stepney. specially Walter, P.- A resident in Stepney. classified— White, Arnold - Author: Interested in the question of Alien Immi- continued. Wigram, M. Williams, A. T. - gration. President of the Sheffield Hebrew Congregation. Member of the Housing Committee of the London County Council. Williams, T. E. - Ex-member of the Ratcliffe Vestry, etc. List of Witnesses arranged according to certain classifications. * These witnesses gave evidence at meetings held in Stepney {see page 142). * These witnesses gave evidence at meetings held in Stepney {see page 142).[ *5 ] THE ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE, OF EACH WITNESS ALPHABETICALLY ARRANGED. Abrahams, Barnett. Naturalised Jew, engaged in waterproof trade, who came oven twenty-two' years ago with. £20 in his pockets, describes his early struggles, and how at the end of five years he commenced to earn 18s. per week, which, gradually rose to £3. He opened a small shop in Spitalfields, from whence he went to the City. Fifteen years ago he employed three hands, and now 60, some being English and some foreign. Finds aliens, pick up the trade quicker than English appren- tices, and they are punctual and sober. The water- proof trade is< due to aliens (18916). Quite 75 per cent, of the manufacturers in this country are aliens, while quite 75 per cent, employed are English. "There is now no importation) of waterproofs from the ■Continent. England exports largely, and is the cen- tre of the trade for the whole world (18896-18999). Does not employ greeners now, and says there is no sweating in the trade (18904-18912). The average earnings of many in the trade are from £2 10s. to £3 per week. In London they make the garments en- tirely, but the proofing is >a. separate business (18931- 18943). Witness describes how he came from Poland to England (18945-18954). Has opened branches in Africa (18965). Amsteil Solomon Van, Boot clicker and pattern cutter, 18 years. Has served in. nearly all the branches of the shoemaking trade (12201-12^104). Describes sweating. It exists wherever out-working is prevalent, involving the em- ployment of a middle-master of a workshop which is ^ iittder tt© coiitrol of a iactory, and where the master pays his workpeople a lower wage than what lie receives from the factory. Two characteristics are long hours and low wages. Methods of remuneration : piece-work rate; (ii.) time rate, hour, day, or week. Under (i.) the low unit price necessitates an ■abnormal number of hours; under (ii.) the basis is really a pierce-rate, because if a man by working long hours finishes so many articles, and receives, say, 6s., tW master calculates profit and loss on the Basis of a ,J;pi886[' rat&, and wages are lowered or hours are^ ex- tended accordingly. Sweating may be described as ! those conditions of employment where a middleman can: tax the labours of others, and where the net profits of the middleman represent surplus price with- l,Ii^d from: his workmen. Witness, with his long and Varied experience, claims to speak with authority upon development of the trade, and the economic aspect of alien! immigration. In the East of London every variety of ladies' boots; and shoes are manufactured from best, to worst. The manufacture of men's boots was never carried on to a large extent. The slipper- tirade is carried on in Leeds, and Manchester, and other provincial towns. Many of the slippers are machine-sewn. The " sewrounds," i.e., " pumps," are made in the East End under sweating conditions, the liefit by natives with a sprinkling of aliens, the worst by aliens only. (The term " natives " includes native Jews.) The alien has introduced no new process of manufacture. The revolutions in the boot and shoe industry have been caused by the invention and iliulti- plieity of labour-saYing machines by Englishman; e.g., Blake in 1860 invented a machine to stitch the eole® to-uppers, which revolutionised the manufacture . of boots throughout'the world. The process of " click- ing" has .'never changed, as " clicking " cannot be done t>y machines. Aliens hardly ever work kt! clicking. Blake5 s invention .split the making of a, boot into thr6e main divisions: (i;) lasting, (ii.) sole sewing, (iii.) Unishmg, Then heel building and attaching machines were invented. The outcome of'this system was a development of workshops. Manufacturers supplied themselves with Blake's machines, and had their last- ing and finishing done 'by out-workers. Aliens did not initiate the outdoor, workshop system, because this was a natural sequence of the old hand-sewn system 6144. Amstell, 'Solomon: Van—-continued. before - machines were used. The old hand-sewn worker rarely employed outside labour except, it might be, apprentices, but the .out-worker,.. whether he was 1 aster or finisher, was compelled to employ others, whom he trained into profit-producing machines. The better-class manufacturers, finding the work not good enough,, began to employ lasters and finishers upon their own premises. The best artisans betook them- selves there, e.g., factories proper. The master of the outdoor workshop stuck to his workshop, and found in the large influx of aliens during the eighties the cheap unskilled labour he wanted. Women and boys, because protected, he rarely employed. He made his workmen pay so much per week for standing room and gas. In 1884 the men struck against this charge, and temporarily, but Only temporarily, gained the day, and sweating was renewed with increased vigour. Men who had been trained in outdoor workshops started workshops of their own. .Competition therefore in- creased, resulting in a fall in prices and a consequent fall in wages, unskilled labour being always obtain- able. The first effect of alien immigration upon wages is the reduction of the wages of the aliens already here; In the outdoor workshops the masters paid what they liked. The men in the manufactories being natives were better paid, and their hours were more uniform, most of them being members of the National'Union.- of Boot and Shoe Operatives. Be- tween 1884 and 1890 things got from bad to worse. In 1890 a strike of the operatives took place, its object being to compel employers to supply indoor work- shops. The strike was successful, its outcome being the formation of a board of conciliation and arbitra- tion, composed of manufacturers and men. The board then drew up three statements of wages, all three being based upon quality, and applying to further developments of the trade with respect to qualities and combinations. The workshop masters supplied themselves with a fe»w machines and began to manu- facture, and in five years reprbduced the conditions which obtained previous to 1890.' With the assistance of aliens, and being themselves aliens, they defied the Federation and the Union. Not belonging to the Federation, they could not be proceeded against. During the period 1890 to 1900 large manufacturers opened retail shops, and entered the market as pro- ducers, and buyers. The manufacturers who supplied the multiple shopownersj with the better qualities did their business on the ordinary credit system, but those who supplied the lower qualities, being aliens, re- quired cash. Side by side with these shop owners, wno are both. producers and buyers, have grown up boot and shoe factors, who buy but do not manufacture. With these the aliens find their markets, and the alien competition is so great, the prices are getting lower and lower, some of the factors tempting them by providing the material. The result of all this has been the placing on the market of an inferior boot at a very cheap price. A " sewround " maker is never regularly at work, and does not average, as Mr. Evans says,. 30s; a week. The season lasts from July to September. All over London " sewrounds;; are made by out-workers, the lower qualities in the East End by aliens, the higher qualities in the West End. Many jpfr.oe manufacturers produce " sewrounds," as they. are, easy to make and req.uire no addition to their plant. T'liey only give orders to their clickers to work up certain qualities of their leather in " sew- round" uppers; these are machined in the ordinary way, and given out to a master who employs men under sweating conditions. Indeed, the machine- sewn manufacturer is the " sewround " man's largest customer. The " sewrounds " produced by the aliens are common, and therefore cheap. The master out- worker, gets 3d. per pair for making them, out of which he pays, his man. A well-equipped factory will pay their out-workers 7d. per pair for making the commonest of the better quality of " sewrounds." This L76 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis. Amstell, Solomon Van—continued. shoe in the East End would b© classed not increase (13423-13425). Witness regards 28s. for an alien working 84 hours a week wholly inadequate, because the union system of wages for 10^ hours works out at about 30s. The alien union have, however, suggested a maximum wage of 2s. 3d. per dozen, i.e.f 28s. per week for a skilled man, not a greener (13433- 13454). The alien has certainly reduced the price of the article. This should not affect the consumer,, because the higher price should lead him to demand higher wages. It is the object of the trades unions to raise the standard of subsistence, if necessary at the expense of the consumer (13456-13484). If cheap- ness is alone to be considered there must be a whole- some sweating all the way round, and it is not an advantage to the producer or the consumer to have an article of inferior quality reduced under sweating conditions. As a matter of fact, the market for the aliens' productions is found amongst the poorest por- tion of the female population (13485-13499). Cheap articles produced at a low price involve disadvantages of low wages, bad conditions and bad environment (13500-13504). Cheapness, if it is the outcome of the trades unions' condition, is, of course, desirable The standard fixed is recognised by the official organi- sations composed of masters and men (13506-13508). Besides, the increase of inferior products involves a deterioration of efficiency and skill. Workers will have to take up a lower grade of work if they wish to live.ANALYSIS. 77 I3aibd/; Robert. ; .Secretary of the Lanarkshire Coal Masters' Associa- tion, and General Manager and Secretary oi the Mutual Insurance Association of the Scotch Coal Owners- (21111). The employment of aliens (Poles) is .considerable in the West of Scotland (21115). Coal .owners object to any restriction being placed on the ° employment of Polish workmen, as they are very •capable, and their conduct very good. The objection that they cannot read the special rules has been met in some cases by having them printed in their own language. They must have had two years' experience at the face under the General Rule 39 of the Act of 1887 before going underground. The rule is that an experienced Pole takes with him underground an in- experienced one. Accidents to Poles are not greater .than to British. The number in the Bothwell Mines were four to British and none to foreigners (21117- 21127). The coal owners have no arrangement to bring these foreigners over (21128-21133). The Poles are very amenable to discipline. At first their habits are not cleanly, but they soon improve ; they .are sober, and they belong: to and are loyal to unions (21144-21147). They began to arrive 20 or 30 years ago. They cannot be said to displace British, be- cause they will work at places where British will not (21148-21154). Union officials seem to be opposed to them (21159), but witness doubts if the general feel- ing is against them (21166-21167). There is no scarcity of labour in the mines in Scotland (21171). They are chiefly Catholic Poles (21194). IBairstow, James Oates. Started the wholesale clothing trade in Hudders- field in 1869 (15132-15133). Coats were entirely made by aliens, as natives would not make them in the wholesale trade (15138-15141). The tendency of the Yorkshire trade is to do away with home work and get it done in the factory (15144). In its early history the coat trade depended, entirely on alien labour; the juvenile trade and other parts on female labour. Though alien labour is useful in some branches, yet the extension of the factory system in which such labour is not employed, causes a large employment of female labour, and benefits the district (15148-15154). Witness ■ describes increase of alien immigration into provincial towns (15155-15158) ; also gives evidence as the agent of the Central South London Free Church Council of its work to check immorality in their district, especially in connection with foreigners (15161-15179). Suggests certain remedies (15178- 15184). Ball, William Oostermonger, and Chairman of Hoxton Coster- mongers' Union (7897-8). Gave up street trading a month ago, and manages china and glass shop ; been coster all his life, dealing in china and glass (7899-7901). Hoxton Union been established 12 years; formed with the object of combating interference by local authorities; unsuccessful in all their efforts; foreign Jews caused in- convenience to shopkeepers, resulting in clearing the whole street (7902-4). Procedure of local authorities (7905-8). Importance of remaining in main/thoroughfare (7907). Notice to remove issued by borough council, on expiring of which proceedings are taken (7909-11). Foreigners obstructed shop- keepers (7912). Action of local authorities due to immense increase of foreign costers (7913). Local authorities interviewed by witness, in hope of getting rid of foreigners (7914). Appeal against magistrates' decisions, but no test case allowed (7915). Report of application to Mr. Fordham, North London, for 73 summonses for obstructing public highway; the man picked out for test case was alien (7915). Statement that remainder were convicted without being tried; cost of case £40; solicitor present on behalf of Union; date of trial February, 1902 (7916-20). Only one alien member in Union; he alone1 was selected for trial in the test case; attempt to dissuade him from joining the Union, but was accepted on paying the dues (71901). Contrary1 to; English practice aliens pitch outside shops and sell same articles as the shop; •shop fronts hidden by haberdashery exposed for sale; lienee action on part of shopkeepers (7922-5). Aliens undersell native coster-s (7926). Market crowded before English costers can arrive ; ample room during Jews' holidays; police decide in favour of first comer ; quarrels lead to action by authorities (7927-8). Aliens 6144. Ball William—continued. attend night market the same as morning market (7929). Enterprise of aliens (7930). They work for employer who buys goods which are given out to them to sell on going home; English buy their own goods; foreigners employ number of salesmen (7931). One, Phillips, employs 24 people to sell china and glass; they live where china is kept (7932-5). Said to have no license; frequent markets only (7935). Costers now compete with shops outside' which they stand (7936). English costers do not attempt to undersell shops, and could not live as foreigners do (7937). Custom attracted to shops by costers (7938). Falling off of trade when costers go (7939). Union men com- plain bitterly of foreigners spoiling their trade (7940). Shopkeepers object to awnings (7941). Great increase of Jewish costers in Hoxton in last 15 years. Com- plaint of crowding out English costers (7942-4). In- creasing bitterness against Jews (7945-6). Jews mostly deal in imperishable goods ; while English coster is absent to buy at market, Jews occupy his stand ; police powerless to turn them out (7947). Underselling of ginger beer by foreigner 7947-9). Serious condition developing owing to ousting of natives (7950-1). Methods by which aliens secure a stand (7952-3). Foreigners are mostly employes (7954). Goods bought' by master (7955). Instances quoted of employer obtaining cheap china from abroad; refusal to retail to any but his own people (7959). Limits of area of Union (7960-1). Tradesmen often exhibit goods outside their shops in streets frequented by costers; foreign costers sell same goods as shops (7962-4). Awnings not confined to foreigners; English more obliging in removing them when re- quested (7965). Englishmen work almost entirely on own account (7966). No relation of employers and employed in the Union; exists for protection of trades only (7967-9). Foreigners in Hoxton and Dais ton mostly Polish Jews; few Italians; some Rus- sian and German Jews (7970-2). Trade not stopped by action of local authorities; costers permitted to stand in side streets (7973-5). Costers' etiquette pre- vents sale of same goods outside a shop as are sold by shopkeepers (7976-7). System of one person selecting goods while others sell them is profitable ; foreigners receive goods from abroad; English have failed to buy from same source (7978-9, 7982). Shopkeepers com- plain against alien costers; local authorities act on their complaints ; clearing out foreigners involves clearing out English, too; falling off of trade in side streets (7983-6). Barnett, Rev. Canon, Canon of Bristol and Warden of Toynbee Hall, and has had large experience in the East End (17505- 17506). The condition of aliens has improved; their children do well at school, are dressed better than the natives, and are not less cleanly. They are thrifty and sober, are free of epidemics, and have introduced trades, e.g., the clothing and cigarette trades, with the result, that wealth has increased in the district (17509-17522). At first they take low wages but improve their condition rapidly, and also take interest in public affairs (17523-17528). The over- crowding in East London is not so. great as 20 years ago (17529-17531, see also 17560-17567). Witness advo- cates dispersion into the country (17532-17538), and thinks that sanitary law should be more vigorously enforced, and that better means of communication Vith the suburbs should be provided (17553). Gam- bling and a love of pleasure has increased (17556- 17558). Witness does not approve of closing areas to prevent overcrowding, but suggests dealing with each case on its merits (17570-17593). Barrett, Oharles. Registrar of Births and Deaths in St. George's-in- the-East; lived there 16 years, and had been a member of the London County Council, Board of Guardians, and late Vestry; was now a member of the Stepney Borough Council (2102-2114). The influx of foreigners is very serious, and there is only the South Ward that they have not invaded, although they have tried to do so, but there the natives will not have them, and drive them out. (2184-2186, 2189-2191). They dis- place the natives, were the cause of key money being demanded, and would only deal amongst themselves (2115-2127, see also 2279-2287). Describes how the Borough Council deals with overcrowding, and the L276 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis. Barrett, Charles—continued. . difficulty of doing so under the Act and by bye-laws 2128-2150,' see also 2315-2324, 2351-2365). High rents caused by alien immigration. Assessment enormously increased at the last- quinquennial in consequence. Key money is practically a premium (2151-2177). Birth register shows great preponderance of alien over British (2178-2182), and the Parliamentary voters have greatly decreased (2183,. 2187-2188). Evils that» arise from ,foreign influx : —(1) (Standard of -living lowered. ,>($) Tradesmen driven out- (2248-2256). (3) Sunday has gone; machines working all that day; and (4) the conditions under which aliens live lower them physically (2192-2200). Fifty per cent, of the appli- cant for medical relief are aliens (2263-2264), but only imbeciles come directly on the rates (2201-2222, see also 2303-2311). There are also some lying-in cases (2223-2224). 75 per cent, of the alien children attend Boarcl schools (2229-2237, see also 2331-2332). Aliens are the. cause of overcrowding-to prevent which the local authorities are not too keen (2244-2247). Aliens are chiefly Poles, but there are a few Belgians, who aredecent class of people (2276). Many Jewish in- habitants are against unrestricted immigration (2297). The general character of St. George's-in-the-East has deteriorated through aliens (2337-2338). Belcher3 Walter. Is Councillor of the Borough of. Stepney, and mana- ger to the Chapman Estate, which belongs to the Earl of Winterton, consisting of about 1,000 houses in St George's in the East (4117-4125). St, George's in the East was a thriving place, but when leases fell out the houses were bought up by foreigners, and weekly rents were greatly increased, e.g., in Antony Street from 10s. 6d. to £1 2s. a. week (4131-4140). Aliens resort to all measures to get houses for their co-religionists, offering up to £16 for the key-money (4141-4161). Gross cases of overcrowding, .e.g., in Antony Street and Lower Chapman Street, remedied by the action of factory or sanitary inspector, or by private action (4162-4198). , On. the Winter ton Estate the tenants are chiefly weekly, when turned out from one house for overcrowding "they simply overcrowd another (4200- 4213). A man called Godfrey (whose name is really Starget) meets the aliens from the Jewish shelter and distributes them over the place; tenants say they are obliged to take in the foreigners.; they are to be seen in loads of 20'to 30 evidently in a filthy condition (4214-4228). The condition of some of the foreigners, e.g., in Antony Street, is disgusting, but when found out tenants are removed from the Chapman Estate (4226-4238). Witness gives instances of gross over- crowding (4244-4277). The foreigners seem specially to remove, on Sundays, to the great annoyance of the natives (4283-4284). Godfrey, of the poor Jews' tempo- rary shelter, engages carters to take the aliens from the steamers to the houses which they overcrowd ; to cope with overcrowding an army of inspectors would be required, who would have' to chase' them from house to house (4286-4292). The feeling against the foreigners is growing very bitter (4293-4294). The inflow of . aliens leads to a general lowering of the standard of the neighbourhood; the old English Jews are desirable neighbours, .and there is no religious or racial feeling against them; the bitterness of feeling is against these newer arrivals who displace the English and force up rents (4295-4300). No by-laws can stop the overcrowding so long as big blocks are being erected to entice the foreigners here (4302-4308). . The,census estimate of foreigners in the East End is not to be relied upon, as the foreigners purposely de- ceive the, authorities (4309-4313 and 4331-4338). They are seriously injuring the local shopkeepers by exclusively dealing with their own people (4315-4321). Witness gives instances of the filthy habits of the aliens and the way they overcrowd (4342-4355): If the-;; sanitary authority, could forthwith serve a summons some ,gpod, might be done (4356). The houses on the Winterton Estate have been much improved; the tenants pay their rents regularly; Lor;d Winterton will ;bi?.ly take in Jewish people borns on the estate or good English tenants .(4361-4365). The Stepney Borough Council take proceedings against the owners under the Public Health Act (London) (4377-4389). The leases qn the Winterton Estate having fallen in in 1900, the property has fallen into the hands of the owner, and the alien population is being much reduced (44,05-4423). /Fair;rents can be obtained and good tenants (4424-4427). Pressure should be put..... Belcher, Walter—continued. upon the tenants as well as upon the landlords,, as the tenants create the nuisance; power should not be given only to the sanitary inspector to enter a house, as a whole army would be required if the work is to- be done properly (4436-4447). The great difficulty on, the, Winterton Estate ;is ;to prevent overcrowding by the tenants' siib-letting, nor will the evil be remedied so long as the aliens, flock into the district (4448-4476). So long a& foreigners own houses overcrowding will exist and rents will be high (4478-4479). Bialofski, Lewis, Represents the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives in Leeds, which is 2,000 strong, the mem- bers being chiefly English, 30 only being Jews (15086- 15096). Tried to form an alien union in 1896, and. drew up scale of charges (15097-15100). In the slip- per-making industry wages were reduced, because aliens would not stick to the scale (15101-15117). De~ scribe's overcrowding in Leeds, and how rents have risen, and the practice of key money been adopted,, all causing bitter feeling (15118-15131). EmcH. Francis Hugh, One of the Believing Officers of. the Holborn Union,, which constitutes the whole, of. the Holborn parish^ including the Saffron Hill district. (14784-14786). The Italians have undoubtedly ousted the Irish and English from the Saffron Hill district (14788-14791). In this district the rents have enormously increased (14793- 14795). Originally this district under ;the< Board of Works was very badly managed, but the Borough Council at present is very apathetic on the question* of overcrowding, which causes the high rents (14797- 14803). Witness thinks the number of aliens in the district must exceed that given by the Registrar- General, namely, 1,200 (14804). ; The Italians are chiefly street vendors; they also work at certain handicrafts (14805-14806). In the making and laying of asphalt and wood pavements in the;streets they have rather displaced English labour, as they have brought the asphalt industry with them (14807-14808). A large number of Italian cattlemen arrived ^before the importation from Argentina was stopped; -they generally landed at Liverpool, and on landing were cast adrift; they seemed a trustworthy class (14809- 14811). The Italians do not resort much,to the poor rates (14813-14814). Witness criticises the action of the local authorities in his evidence^ but has sub- sequently withdrawn his statements. Blake, Henry Westox. Analysis of Examination (7686-7896). Besides at. Battersea; has been costermonger for 20 years (7686-7). President of Costermongers' Association for 2} years (7688-90). Resigned in June, 1901, on account of great labour attaching to presidency; Federation then broke up (7691-4). Federation essentially British, but no definite rule excluding aliens, except in Fulham branch; rule introduced there on acount of threatened large; accession of alien members (7695-6). Witness was editor of costers', newspaper, which has now ceased to exist (7697-9). Also author of article in " Pali Mall Gazette/' " The Alien Coster," representing' evil effects of unrestricted immigration (7700-3). Competition and miserable mode of alien's life make it impossible # for an Englishmen to. gain a decent 'living ; aliens have no regard for costers* etiquette, but will occupy any vacant stand (see 7724-8) (7704). Description of methods adopted by Italian ic2-cream men ; wages paid by them to assistants imported from Italy; mode of living in Battersea (7705). Demand for ice-cream in- creasing; in other large towns same conditions pre- - vail ;* result that gutters are overcrowded and quarrel- ling occurs (7706-8)» Agitation apt to be got up either by the shopkeepers or local authorities to clear road& of all costers (7708). Previous to arrival of foreigners no legal interference was experienced (7709-10). Total number of English costers in London about 50,000,. male and' female (7711-2). Large num- bers from abroad seriously affect the trade (7713). In winter many English glad to sweep snow on account of competition (7714). Evils complained of growing by leaps and bounds ; competi- tion most unfair ,(7715-6). Those employed are im- ... ported and live .at abnormally low wage, consequently articles are sold at very low price (7717-8). EnglishANALYSIS. 79 Blake, Henry Weston— continued. costers cannot accept same conditions of living ; are subject to sanitary laws which prohibit overcrowding .(7719). Foreigners evade sanitary laws; sleep six or eight in one room in several,streets in Battersea; mostly of Italian nationality (7720-1). Goods sold at prices-with which it is impossible to compete ; mode of living; sweating by employers (7722-3). Refuee to recognise costers' rights to their own pitch; free fights occur in consequence, and police decide in favour of first comer (see 7728) (7724), No legal right at- taches to a pitch; costers' etiquette (7725-6). Em- bittered feeling between English and alien costers;, witness has used influence to prevent conflicts; con- siders it unfair that, seeing the struggle, for existence, foreigners should be allowed to land (7727). Foreigners more favoured by police. than. English (7729). Struggle for trade not be- tween English costers, but between English and foreigners (7730). Sunday trading not recognised in London ; dealers in perishable goods consequently suiter (7731-2). Exception in favour of foreigners in East End; . no; interference there with Sunday trad- ing; saine privilege not granted in any other part of London (7733-4). Traders in East End are of Jewish nationality; non-observance of Jewish Sabbath (7735- 7). No .restriction on selling ice-cream on Sunday by Italians; increase of trade; encouragement of children to' spend their money (7738). Ingredients of ice- cream ; insanitary conditions' under which it is manu- factured (7739-42). No standard for ice-cream, since it does not come under the Food and Drugs Adultera- tion Act (7743-6). Objections to alien on account of conditions under which he competes and the sweating system employed (tf£e 7861) (7746). Articles dealt in bv Italian vendors (7747). Articles dealt in by East End Jews (7748-50). Importation of Italians by those who have saved money; arrival of Italians in Batter- sea; wages paid by their employers (7751-2). Italian colony in Asylum Road, Kingston; how settlement was effected in the road; rent; sub-letting of houses by Italian leaseholder (7753). Rapid transition from employ^ to employer; employers continually bring more foreigners over; numbers increasing very rapidly in London and other towns (7754-7). Italians violent and excitable in character (7?58-9). Their trade is carried on in the neighbourhood in which they settle (7760). Recent desperate fight with Italians living in Clerktenwell, (7761-8). Italian organ-grinders; accom- panied by children; the latter frequent country rather than big towns (7769-70). Parentage of children doubtful, but all are foreigners (7771-3). Children's earnings appropriated by employers; frequent cruel treatment of children; traffic in children (7774-6). Competition of Russian and Polish costers; equally keen as other foreigners.; large numbers engaged in street tVade (7777-9). East End foreign costers' Union ; 'not detrimental to English costers (7780-2). Loss O'f market in Battersea owing to habits of Russian andPolish Jews (7783). Opposition of shopkeepers to JewMi ;(k)Steriy; resulting in driving out English and foreigners alike (7784-7). Antagonism of local autho- rity andshopkeepers due to enormous increase of foreigners (7788:9). Continuance of unrestricted im- migration will deprive English costers of their living (7790-1). Distinction between " hawker " and " coster " (7792-3). Hawker requires licence; costermon- ger only in the case of non-perishable goods (7794-7801). Russian and Polish, hawkers are few ;they'confine themselves, to one spot, and do not go into the couhtry' (7802-3). Police regulations re- garding costermongers' and hawkers' trades; the pre- vention of obstructions (7804-6), Possibility of police favouring one coster more than another (7807-8). Power of police extends to those dealing with costers ; by moving them on costers are deprived of trade (7809 10). Foreigners feign ignorance of English when it suits their purpose; where advantageous they under- stand it w©ll (7811). Census Returns for whole County of Londop, 1901, show in the coster trade roughly iind&r 1,700 Russians, Poles, and Italians altogether; witness describes, this as gross misstatement; esti- mates that there* ai^tnearer .pne -million than 1,700 in the Elast find (781^-6)., . Plan of action of foreigners on arrival, finding employment (78;L7)>. Definition of " costermonger " ; origin of term (7818-9); . Organ- grinders not inaiuded, but any man who live® by sell- ing in stree£(7820-2). . posters have experienced hard times lately both from^competition and pressure of law (7823-4). Recent decisions that costers are liable Blake Henry Weston—continued. to ordinary law of obstruction (7825-7). Within two years ago costers were unmolested if they complied with policef regulations under the Act of 1867; effect of judgment is that any shopkeeper or local authority can now take proceedings for obstruction to the person complaining (7828-32). The magistrate in order to convict must come to conclusion not merely that the technical offence of obstructing the highway is being? committed, but that there is obstruction in fact (7833). Rule is stronger than when coster thought to be under police regulations' only (7834). Direct competition with foreign costers; pitch not the only difficulty (7835-7). Previous to arrival of foreign ice-cream men there was an ice-cream trade carried on by Englishmen (7838-40). Definition of a "hawker" (see 7848) (7841-3). Liability to pay hawker's licence on im- perishable goods (7844). Coster subject to liability; amount for licence £2 a year (7845-7). Pedlar's certi- ficate, 5s. a year. Definition of "pedlar" as dist- inguished from " hawker " (7849). Causes of obstruc- tion of Fulham Branch of Costers' Association to foreigners (7850-2). Result that foreign costers do not trade in Fulham; Union men defend themselves (7853-8). Underselling of English costers rendered possible by sweating; admits sweating exists in British trades (7859-7860). No objections to foreigners pro- vided they trade under same conditions as English (7861). Sweating system is chief objection, whether exercised by British or alien (7862-3). Generally speaking, no benefit to public by getting goods at low price; consumer may benefit direct, but the country does not (see 7871) (7864-8). Individual benefit to very poor persons admitted; doubtful benefit to obtain goods from person who can hardly exist in producing them ; consumer alone benefits, otherwise it is -re- garded as national calamity (see 7864-8) (7871). Eng- lish must attempt to compete, or go where no foreign competition has made its appearance; he is compelled to reduce his prices, but still sells at small profit (7872-8). Ice-cream trade entirely in hands of Italians English driven out of the trade by them almost en- tirely (7879-81). Iee-cream cheapened by com- petition among Italians themselves (7885). Witness', urges Commission to use influence to alter state of affairs; difficulties and hardships of life on account of competition ; complains that the foreigner has privi- leges which are denied to Englishmen; instance quoted . at Bournemouth; foreigners allowed to sell wares on, Bournemouth sands; attempt by witness to gain ad- mission for Englishmen, .resulting in their summons- , and conviction; reversal of Bournemouth magis- trate's decision in London, but English costers still, denied access to sands; similar case in Pimlico (7886-91). Suggestion to introduce poll-tax, and that aliens on entering should show £100 cash (7892-3). Declines to discuss possible retaliation on English- men in a foreign country (7894). Presents petition from Costers' Union protesting against unrestricted immigration, and setting forth the evils caused there- by (7895-6). Bradford, Colonel Sir Edward R. C. Late Co-mnxissiorLeir of the Metropolitan Police- (23617). Endorses Mr. Henry's views, that it would not be feasible to take steps to keep criminals out. The, judge should have discretionary power to order the alien criminal to leave the country, as part of the sentence. He must , be oonvicted of a crime-' (23622-23626). Brown, George. . it Photographer's assistant. Resided in Stepney 10 years (2377-2380). Great change in neighbourhood during that period. English driven away and suffer- ing: great hardships in consequence. Specific cases given.- Alien- invasion' chiefly the cause of high rents (2381-2398, see also 2461-2462). The dis- placed being the flower of thie workers of Stepney (2399-2400); Key moiley has only become general during the last 10 years; produced by tremendous pressure of aliens to obtain house accommodation. They then repay themselves by overcrowding,,(2401- - 2405). Had seen notices stating 'that " No English need apply " ; these caused ill fueling and resentment (2406-2414, see also 2463-2465). Case of key money being offered ; source from which money, obtained..... unknown ; English cannot' get it (24X5-2422). Sunday a pandemonium (2423-2425). Aliens cob- Analysis.80 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Brown, George—continued. tinually pose as English by changing their names {see 2471-2476, 2453-2455); and large numbers do nob observe their own Sabbath, but work seven days a week (2426-2438). Native school children's holiday postponed to fit in with Jewish Passover (2439-2440). Feeling strong against the alien ; tradesmen boycotted until unable to pay their way, and then bribed with key money (2441-2446). District practically a foreign colony; will only deal with their own people (2449- 2452i). If overcrowding was stopped rents; would diminish (2467-2470), but no hope of doing so while constant stream of aliens are arriving (2480-2484). Brown, James, Brick manufacturer in Whitechapel; J.P. for the County of London, and member of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, Chairman of Whitechapel Board of Guardians for 10 years, etc. (10992-10998). From 1840-50 the Jews were principally located in the dis- trict of Petticoat Lane, extending out as far as Briok Lane, and have gone on extending (11162-lllo7,10999- 11000). Tien years ago witness carried on a gym- nasium for factory girls, and formed a high opinion of the aliens. He has always found them sober, thriftv. ignorant of sanitary regulations at finst, but capable of rapid improvement; not aggressive (11007- 11015, 11168-11177). The Jewish Board of Guardians almost'entirely take upon themselves the relief of the Jews, both native and foreign (11018-11021). Of 4,060 admitted to the workhouse of the Whitechapel Union in 1901, 62 were aliens; out of 6,000 admitted to the infirmary, 123 were aliens being indoor patients (11023-11028). The occupations of the 62 in the work- house are very varied (11029-11031). The Jews come freely for medical relief. Out of 1,264 in 1901, 536 were not English born; they apply for a medical certificate to use as a means of securing help of another kind from the Jewish people, and because they like medicine (11033-11043, 11194-11195). Out of 95 illegitimate children born in the Whitechapel In- firmary, 23 were Jewish (11045-11049). (N.B.—Should be 103, not 93, and out of 103, 25 were illegitimate (11204-11208). Out of 501 lunatics and imbeciles in the asylum, about 150 were foreigners, i.e., people with foreign names. The Jewish Board of Guardians does not take charge of lunatics (11051-11054, 11196- 11200). Very few cases of deserted wives and children (11056). In the Norwood School, which is a certified Jewish school for orphans, there are 14 children (11062). Thus the number of Jews in the infirmary, workhouse, and Norwood School is 58 out of a total of 1,403 exclusive of lunatics (11062-11063). The aliens do not resort to> the casual ward (11064). Wit- ness denies that the aliens have an indirect effect upon local pauperism, there being no competition (11055- 11066). Overcrowding appears to be only very limited in small areas, though in some parts very serious (11067-11070). High rents and overcrowding react upon each other, but witness is unable to specifically :state the areas in which overcrowding does and does not exist (11071-11076). Overcrowding amongst the aliens is due to- the necessity to live together because of the language and because of the obligation to teach the greeners their trade (11077). Witness has ex- perience' of overcrowding in other parts of the dis- trict, e.g., at Notting Hill, where, according to the Rector's report, it is appalling (11078-11090). Is owner of some blocks in Clerkenwell, and finds diffi- culty, so- far as overcrowding is concerned, arises from the birth of children (11091-11093). The present cost -of building also effects overcrowding, and the fact that municipal action has crippled private enter- prises ; the rents of municipal buildings are necessarily high owing to the cost of the site, which is: prohibi- tive to private builders (11094-11102). The local authorities should acquire sites and sell them in open market for the purpose of building working-class dwellings (11152-11157). The clearances effected by Mann, Grossman, and Paulin, brewers, and by the London Hospital, and by the Board Schools, have all - caused overcrowding (11103-11108). Witness reports : a statement of a manufacturer of cheap clothing and • caps, that if the immigration of aliens were stopped his and many other businesses would go back to Ger- : many (11110-11113, 11288-11293). The displacement in Stepney has been not of ordinary labour but of the ^smaller shopkeepers, who have suffered most in the East End, partly through the increase in large shops and co-operative stores (11114-11115). By putting Brown, James—continued. into force the compulsory powers of penalising the landlord as well as the tenant overcrowding might be stopped, but it is a work of time (11116-11117). With- out interfering with the right to> asylum, criminals should and could be excluded by all settlers being compelled to produce a certificate of character' (11118- 11120). Witness hesitates to classify other than criminals as undesirables to be excluded (11122-11123). He would exclude immoral characters (11124-11125). Witness explains that often difficulty as to the num- ber of houses in a district arises from the fact that in some cases actual buildings are counted, whereas in others the totals are taken from the rate book, and it must be noted that each tenement of a single block building is separately rated ; thus in the Whitechapel Union, whereas in the Census it is said to contain 5826 bouse®, there are in reality 9,785, each tenement being separately rated as a house (11126-11145). Wit- ness holds that the improvements in the streets, etc., are not due to the (alien immigration but to the general improvement that has gone on throughout London (11187-11191). The Board of Guardians sup- plies Jews with Kosher meat (11212-11215). The statistics with regard to overcrowding are taken from the assessment returns, which are' based on the rent per room in each house, The fact that two books are kept, one foir assessment purposes., and one for the landlord, 1 a deterrent effect (11401-11407). With regard to blocks, the general average for a family is two rooms and a scullery, which would be 'smaller than the old- fashioned house with two rooms on the ground floor and two rooms upstairs, therefore, comparing like with like (N.B.—Each tenement of a block is a house), if the houses are the same in number there is more overcrowding, but in the blocks lodgers are not permitted, whereas in houses many lodgers are taken in (11408-11419). The difficulties in the way of landlords removing unsatisfactory tenants should be removed, as now a weeMy tenant can remain without paying .any rent for -six weeks after notice to leave (11433-11437). Bruce, G. L. Resident in Whitechapel for about 17 years (18242) ; is member of the School Board, and in charge of the Whitechapel schools from 1891 to 1897 ; and from 1900, which are filled with Jews, though no preference is shown (18325-18328). Jewish children prove excellent scholars ; their parents paying special attention to their education (18329). The overcrowding, encouraged by and encouraging high rents, can only be cured by the enforcement of the law ; present inmates should not, however, be turned out, but no others allowed to overcrowd. A sudden enforcement would cause to much misery (18329- 18332). About three-fourths of the Jewish children go to Board schools, though previously to the Volun- tary schools, the largest of which is the Jewish Free School (18333-18339). Jewish scholars in some schools are nearly 95 per cent, down to 30 or 40 per cent. (18341). The great difficulty in Whitechapel is overcrowding, the largest contributory cause being the alien immigration (18343-18355). The value of the houses which might be registered should be un- limited, and the names of the present ten/ants on the schedule, and the number who> could be pro- perly accommodated, and no new tenant should be admitted until the house was down to its proper figure (18356-18357). Overcrowding has caused high rents (18358). The enforcement of the present law is preferable to< closing a congested area. (18360-18363). The difficulty arises from increase of families, which is abnormally large (18364). Turning residential property into warehouses increases the difficulty; and the block dwellings accentuate the evil. Con- version of residential into business districts is only pernicious when the population, such as the Jewish, is stationary ; but the Jews are now showing a willing- ness to expand, e.g., to Tottenham. The alien immi- gration is the real cause of overcrowding (18375- 18377). The need of increased school accommodation has produced, by the increase of children, over- crowding (18380-18384). Whitechapel needs the space and air of playgrounds before buildings (18385). Bull, Alfred Hollard. Mayor of Beading (20466). About two years ago a Jewish synagogue was opened in Reading, as the number of Jews were steadily increasing ; its object also was to attract more Jewish settlers. They have been useful townsmen; their habits are orderly; they do not come upon the rates ; they do not deal exclusively with their own people ; their labour is not cheaper than that of natives ; they more or less live together ; as their aim is to become masters there should be a constant supply of working men to take their place ; their children are bright and English in nature ; they often create trades of their own which involve the employment of English labour. There is no anti-Jewish or anti-foreign feel- ing in Reading; rents are high, but there is no over- crowding in the town. The abstemious habits of the foreigners and their regularity of attendance are ap- preciated by employers (20468). The present popula- tion of the borough is about 74,000, the foreigners being 233 (20469-20470). The principal trade of the foreigners in Reading is the bespoke tailoring trade (20477-20481). Burlin, Adolph L. Analysis. Manufacturing chemist at Burton-on-Trent (20303). ~ Established a. factory in South Tottenham, and em- ployed foreign and English workmen, for the utilisation of brewers' waste products for bakers' yeast for baking purposes in a compressed state (2U309-20320). Witness is now managing ex- tensive works at Burton-on-Trent to deal with all brewers' and maltsters' by-products, chiefly for the manufacture of all kinds of cattle food. Was obliged to employ Germans to start the business, but now uses English labour (20321-20327). Other similar institutionis have been started by foreigners, and have since become Anglicised (20328-20338). There are no foreigners in Burton-on-Trent; employers would fare better if there were, as the Trades Unions hamper progress (20347). Nearly all the improve- ments which have taken place in chemistry in this country have been brought about by Germans (20348). (For* remarks on general questions see 20560-20565.) Burton, J. L. Editor of " Shoe and Leather Record." Gives evi- dence of cases of bankruptcy of Jews in which there is strong presumption of fraud (13239-13281). Butcher, Francis h. Head Master of the Christian Street Board School for boys. Previously head master to the Lower Chap- man Street Board School in St. George's-in-the-East, in which the Jewish attendances increased during 17J years from 5 per cent, to 48 per cent, on a roll of 489 18793-18797). There are now 348 boys in the Chris- tian Street School, which is a new one, of whom only three are Christian children. The district is entirely Jewish (18801-18807). Witness finds the children above the average in facility, industry, and perse- verance ; their attendance is remarkably high; their parents take a great interest in their education, and the children certainly appear well fed. They have Bible instruction, and for their Hebrew they go to the Chedaram (11819-11848). Physically (that is, in games, etc.) they do not compare with the British children, but are intellectually superior (18858-18865). Calkin, W. J. Of the firm of Tegner, Price and Co., agents of the Libau Shipping Co. (23346). The company, which is foreign, brings aliens (principally Russians) (23349), averaging 100 each time (23373). Emigration agent, Knie, in Libau, charters room in steamers, and makes all arrangements (23353-23358). The company merely see that the regulations of the sanitary authori- ties in the Port of London are observed (23359). Restrictive regulations would result in loss of traffic, and to the American lines in the case of transmi- grants (23367-23368). Witness sees no objection to test (23371). About 60 to 70 per cent, are trans- migrants, the bulk of them probably having through tickets from immigration agents. The shipping company do not book through (23375-23379). The onus, in the event of rejection in England, would rest on the shipping companies (23380-23382). Steamers chartered by Knie go regularly to and fro (23385). Canney, Rev. E. Is Rector of St. Peter's, Saffron Hill, in Holborn. Has very few aliens in his present parish, being out- side the parish, and in the neighbouring parish of Holy Trinity (12654-12657). Their numbers have de- creased through demolition of warehouses ; they have removed to the Eyre Street Hill colony (12658-12661). The Italians pursue all trades. Few skilled men do mosaic work, barometers and other scientific instru- ments, but for the most part they are either sellers in the streets, or go about with organs (12664). The percentage of criminals is very small, but some of the young Italians are very immoral (12665-12667). Very few fall upon the rates (12670). They do not compete with the natives, and there is. no sweating- (12671-12675). Those who fell under the influence- of Mazzini^have intermarried with English women,. but a strict Roman will not do so (12676-12677). They are healthy, clean, and intelligent, but there are some undesirables who should be kept out (12680).82 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Analysis. Canney, Rev. E.—continued. , The skilled workmen are not to be found in the ' j Saffron Hill colony, and there were more of the skilled class in the paist than, there are now (12687). The Padrones fetch lads from Italy, and have a kind of organisation for this purpose (12690-12694). The Italians constantly use the knife in brawls upon each other, but very rarely upon Englishmen (12695- 12696). The trade in plaster of Paris images is much diminished. Carter, Rev. Ernest Cotjrtenay. 1 Vicar of St. Jude's, Whitechapel, since 1898 (10230- 40232). 10232). The number of non-Jewish inhabitants in the parish has slightly decreased, from 2,100 to about 2,000 (10234). The total day population is about ! 7,000 ; at night vastly greater (10235-10238). The feeling against the aliens. is very strong, due to dis- placement (10239-10241); to the aggressive conduct of the Jews (10242); to their language in connection with the Christian religion (10244 and 10255-10268); ^ to their behaviour on Sundays (10247). Dealings with the better class of Jews are upon a more friendly basis (10269-10270). The Sunday grievance is the chief one (10273). ( Chalmers, Captain Alfred George. Professional member of the Marine Department at the Board of Trade, and formerly Emigration Officer in same Department. Has to do with the procedure which controls embarkation of emigrants bound to ports out of Europe. These include the Colonial ports and those of the United States (22809-22814). Duty confined to seeing that pasenger has his contract ticket in order (see 22899-22902). Does not recognise transmigrants as such, but deals with them as emi- grants (22816-22827). Examine all steerage passen- gers under Merchant Shipping Act; see that the ship is thoroughly equipped, and make a list of all steerage and cabin passengers. This list is sum- marised and totalled, and English, Scotch, Irish, and foreigners, without distinguishing their nation- alities, entered in different columns, but there is no reliable or direct means of ascertaining whether a .man is transmigrant or not (22828-22854). Thinks it -•cheaper for aliens from Bremen or Hamburg to book -through to America, instead of making two contracts (22855-22857). Describes method of medical exam- ination, and causes of rejection (22858-22864). :;Should a poor alien be detained he is chargeable to the shipping company. The g;reat bulk recover and ■. go on again, but if no| the passage broker is supposed -to take him back (see 22896-2^898). Examination is in the interest of the health and safety of the other -passengers <22865-22877). Have siame power over foreign ships calling at English ports and taking on board a sufficient number of steerage passengers to bring the total number of steerage passengers up to 50 (22879-22883, see also 22892). ^Sees no difficulty in Parliament dealing in an effective way with the sanitary condition of ships bringing, emigrants here, but it would mean an increase of staff (22884-22891, also 22895). Under the Merchant Shipping Act cattle men are classed as seamen, and it is a means for people in a bad way to work their passage to England (22903-22912). Chambers, f. w. Is manager of the Netherland Steamsjiip Com- pany, whose steamers run from Rotterdam to Xondon, bringing third class passengers, principally Hussians and Poles, also sailors, and German bands {23389-6S392). Deportation of anyone not ufj to a specified standard would mean a loss to the shipping company (23397)., It would make company at Rotter- dam careful as to whom it shipped. It would now re- fuse a ticket to anyone diseased, in the interests of the other passengers (23403-23406). There is, however, no medical examination (23407). Clayton*, r.e., Major E. G. , Secretary to,the Prison Commission, and formerly Governor of I^wes anid Wormwood Scr#bbs Prisons (23210-23211). Ascertains nationality of prisoner by his own statement on his reception, only those born Clayton, r.e., Major E. G.— continued. outside of the British Dominions put down as aliens (23212-23218, see also 23326-23336). The number of alien prisoners, have risen from 2,181 in 1899 to 3,449 in 1893, the total number for these five years being 13114 (23227-23230), and the percentages of alien pri- soners to the total number of convicted prisoners during the same period are as follow : In 1899, 1*36 per cent. ; in 1900, 1*39 per cent. ; in 1901, 1-66 per cent. ; in 1902, 1-72 per cent. ; and in 1903, 1-98 per cent. The proportion of alien is about two to one (23245-23249, see also Appendix LXIV.), In 1899 there were 361 Germans, 295 Russians and Poleis, 195 Italians, and 514 from the continent of America (excluding Canada) in our prisons, and in 1903 the numbers were 582, 591, 279, and. 607 respectively. These figures refer to males, only, and show a higher percentage of Americans than amy other nation. Tak- ing 3,114, the total number of alien "prisoners for the five years, 23^ per cent, were Americans, 19 per cent. Germans, 17 per cent. Russians and Poles, 11 per cent. Norwegians, Swedes, and Daneis, 9 per cent. Italians, 9 per cent. French, and. those of other nationalities so small as to be hardly noticeable (23255-23277, see also Appendix LXV.). The increase of crime of each particular nationality during that period is: Russians and Poles, 117 per cent. ; Nor- wegians and Danes, 78 per cent. ; Germans, b7 per cent. ; French, 58 per cent. ; Italians, 45 per cent. ; and Americans, 25 per cent. There are no returns showing thei. percentage of alien crime to alien popula- tion (23278-23281). From 1891 to 1901 the alien pro- portion to the population throughout the United Kingdom had increased from 0*58 to 0*68 per cent., but the percentage of foreign crime is much higher, being 1*66 per cent. (23289-23292). All classes of crime committed by aliens has increased 23293-23298), see also Appendix LXYI.). Gives statement showing sentences imposed upon aliens from 1899 to 1903 (23299-23317, see also Appendix LXVII.); also one showing the number of previous convictions recorded against them, and the trade and occupation of each before conviction (23318-23321, ser Appendix LXVIII.). During that period convictions for serious crime increased from 248 to* 386 (23324- 23325). Cost of the maintenance of foreign criminals in prisons (23340-23342). There are three synagogues in prisons in England (23343, 23345). Cohen, L. L. President of the Jewish Board of Guardians since Juiie, 1900; on the Committee of the Stock Exchange; is an Englishman (15203-15211). His father one of the founders if the Jewish Board of Guardians in 1859. Th.3 Board is supported by the Jewish community (15212- 15215). Amount of funded property about £68,000, for general purposes. Administers other trusts, e.g., for loans without interest, for apprenticing pur- poses, for emigration (15216-15222). Distributed in relief in 1902 £14,747 16s. Id., which comes from donations and subscriptions (15223-15225). The syniagogues give £1,265 a year (15226-15227). Sub- scriptions and donations from all sources amounted in 1902 to £15,480, and sums for specified purposes to £4,146 (15,228-15,233). Relieved in 1902 4,806 cases of poverty, representing 17,790 individuals, in London. Board only deals with London (15236- 15242). Relieved 2,227 cases of foreigners resi- dent over seven years, 2,029 less than seven years of these 301 Russians and Poles, 40 Germans and Austrians, 3 Dutch, 30 Rou- manians, and 6 other nationalities arrived during 1902; (15243-15245). The Board of Guardians has a department for apprenticing boys and girls (15246). Evidence of- witness relates only to cases dealt with by the Jewish Board of Guardians, and to cases of persecuted Jews dealt with by the joint committee of the Board of Guardians and the Rusko-Jewish Com- mittee (15247-15249). The Board of Guardians' has successfully relieved-Jewish distress, because, in spite of continuous influx between 1895 and 1902, 'there has been no corresponding increase of pauper aliens (15250-15251). Applications are made in person to one official of the Board, and investigated by another. No application is considered unless a,n applicant has been six months.in residence, unless he wishes to be repatriated (15255-15258). The Dutch and the Austro^ttungarian Benevolent Associations assist a few foreigners, but very few. The great majorityANALYSIS. 83 Cohen, L. L.—continued. come before the joint committees. New cases mean new applications, not necessarily new arrivals (15260- 15261). Witness presents table showing the number of foreigners who have applied for relief from 1895- 1902, viz., foreigners resident less than seven years, and foreigners resident over seven years; adding Russians assisted by the conjoint committee, 1902. The figures are as follow:—Arrivals, 3,350; for signers, resident less than seven years, * relieved, 8,512; foreigners, over seven years, relieved, 2,835; Russians relieved by the Russo-Jewish, conjoint committee, 3,2&2 (15262-15276). That the foreigners resident here seven years and upwards do not increase shows tnat after a short time the alien influx does not increase pauperism (15277). The Roumanian laws, a famine in Bessarabia, and bad harvests in Russia were re- sponsible for the increase in 1900 (15278-15281). Roumanian immigration has practically ceased, only 30 new arrivals having applied for relief in 1902, whereas in 1900 there were 493. Witness, as chairman, forwarded a memorandum abroad and to the Jewish Colonisation Society, which arranges immigration fco the Colonies and Argentina, not England, dissuading Roumanians from coming to England; they have since gone chiefly direct to New York. In 1901 4,684, in 1902 8,211 Roumanians went direct to New York (15282-15297). 21,050 Russians went direct to New York in 1901, and in 1902 30,928 (15299-15301). Statistics suggest the probability that aliens have means on their arrival; after a little time they want assistance to put them on their legs; vhe.o. the Board assists them it does so substantially; it refuses to help those who have not resided six months to dis- courage immigration (15302-15310). The reduction in the general pauperism of Whitechapel proves that new arrivals do not come on. the rates (15311). Ar- rivals are not necessarily skilled labourers, but they have had employment at home, and are quick to learn. The following trades were represented by applicants in 1902:—Bakers, 35; barbers, 15 ; boot- makers, 600; butchers, 6; charwomen and servants, 118; furriers, 32; general dealers and shopkeepers, 214; glaziers, 31; hat and cap makers, 74; hawkers and costermongers, 363; metal-working trades, 32; nurses, 20; painters and paper-hangers, 32 ; tailors and clothiers, 825; teachers, etc., 35; tobacconists, 93; watchmakers and jewellers, 18; wood-working trades, 163 ; miscellaneous, 118; of no ascertained trade, 634 (15312-15317). The Board till recently re- stricted immigration to New York owing to an arrangement with the United Hebrew Charities, but it has recently modified this arrangement (15318). It repatriates those who fail here or break down in health, and exacts a contribution towards the fare of 20s. to 30s. for each person repatriated ; its honorary agent, Mr. Samson, looks after them at Hamburg (15319-15324). Taking three 'to-a case, 28,000 souls have been repatriated or emigrated to America, Canada, or South Africa (15325-15330); between 1895 and 1901 5,928 cases were added to the register, but very rarely once relieved they apply again (15333- 15340). 'Out of a total 4,551, 2,235 old cases were relieved in 1901, whereas in 1895, out of 4,270, 2,829 old cases were relieved. Thus, notwithstanding this movement of emigration, the actual number of old cases in 1901 is 500 less than in 1895 ; if the influx created pauperism the figures of the native cases, new and old, would show variation, whereas in 1895 they numbered 524, in 1901 510, the annual average of new cases of natives being under 10; therefore, the influx does not appear to have a baneful effect on the other poor already here (15341-15353). Object of Jewish Board of Guardians is to keep Jews from going to the workhouse (15355-15359). That the ratio of paupers per 1,000 population in the Whitechapel Union was 25-4 in 1882, when the influx began, and had fallen in 1901 to 23-2, proves that the immigra- tion has not increased pauperism (15361-15363). De- ducting the repatriated and emigrated from the total relieved in 1900, the result is that 283 cases, repre- senting 791 souls, remained here at the end of the year; therefore, if, as according to the Board of Trade, 14,000 aliens were added to the population, the number of pauper aliens is "une quantite negligeable"; nor would the six months' interval affect the conten- tion that the country is not being deluged with pauper aliens, since new arrivals have either means of their 6144. Cohen, L. L.—continued own, or may be relieved by relatives (15365-15381). The committee grants no loans to foreigners unless they have been here a year; the loans range from £2 to £5, larger ones occasionally being given, not to give a start, but to help in business; no loan above £25 is granted to foreigners who have been here less than seven years (15385-15386). 2,015 aliens were relieved by Poor Law administration in London in 1900 according to Poor Law Returns (medical relief inclusive), of whom 1,100 were Russians and Poles; and in 1899 2,895 were relieved, of whom 2,305 were Russians or Poles. In Whitechapel returns are aa follow: — Russians Austrians. Dutch, and Poles. Medical Relief - - 309 14 8 Admitted to Infirmary 70 3 3 „ „ Workhouse 21 1 l Analysis. 400 18 12 Therefore Jewish immigrants have very little relief other than medical, nor so far as witness knows has. the immigration increased pauperism (15387-15394). The Jewish Board of Guardians has an Industrial Committee', which -apprentices boys (most English born) to* various trades (15395-15398). And a Sani- tary Committee, to deal with sanitary defects (in- cluding overcrowding and living in cellars); their sanitary inspector visits suspected houses, and notifies, defects to owners; if necessary he communicates with the local authorities, and in case of dangerous struc- tures to the County Council; also by posters and circulars inculcates cleanly habits ; specially regulates* against consumption; in 1901 the inspector visited 2,972 and inspected 1,149 houses occupied by the Jewish poor, and discovered 33 cases of overcrowding; ' nuisances were for the most part remedied; at the end of 1901 107 consumption cases were on the register ; the Sanitary Committee in its last report regretted that the decision of Weatheritt v. Cantley prevents? the registration of block dwellings (15399-15406). Witness contends that restriction will only reduce the overcrowding in the district occupied by aliens, and that if restriction is enacted it must be at the 26 ports; the American regulations do not keep out many aliens; overcrowding is the one evil; the policy of the Board and of the Russo-Jewish Committee is fighting against it, and other Jewish bodies are aim- ing at dissemination (15406-15409). End of state- ment. Examination.—Most of the rookeries in White- chapel and Stepney have been replaced by warehouses (15410-15411). A gloomy forecast in the 1894 report was not realised (15419-15420). 1900 was an excep- tional year, and the Board did what they could to* repress immigration. The forebodings of the report of 1894 would apply to 1900, but not to other years (15421-15433). The returns, of the Board of Trade since 1894 show a constant increase (with two slight variations) to 1902, in which year they exceeded 1901 by 6,000; witness attributes this increase to com- mercial activity m America, because the figures, though not professedly, do include many en route; he knows no external cause, but the increase has not been reflected in Jewish charitable institutions! (15434- 15441). Does not agree with Mr. Haw trey that the average for eight years of the total amount possessed by aliens is only 26 marks; but a capacity to work is. a resource; at any rate, they are not assisted for six months, and if necessary their length of residence is* investigated; the rule is well known; does not think new arrivals are assisted by Jewish charitable institu- tions ; the Jewish Federated Society of Charities help® through the Board of Guardians ; the Jewish shelter is not affiliated to the Board (15442-15462). The Board's restriction of emigration to New York (now modified) had no bearing upon restrictive laws of America; the few returned (under 20 cases in 1902) were repatriated; the bulk of repatriated cases are those who fail here (15464-15470). But some who are relieved are physically superior, e.g., Roumanians, whom witness saw in 1900 (15471). The Board has been striving to check immigration, to stop the con- gestion of areas, and continues to do so (15475-15482). But witness denies that it is as true now as in 1891, that helpless immigrants arrive here (15483-15485). Immigration might become excessive but for pre- cautions of the Board, but it is not now excessive; M84 ROYAL COMMISSION ON Analysis. Cohen, L. L. (Examination)—continued. --the system of repatriation adopted does not disprove this statement, because each case is taken on its merits, and the warnings in 1901 were because the Board thought the movement in 1900 mig;ht continue, and are in anticipation of, rather than the result of, excessive immigration (15486-15497). The general flow of alien immigration has increased, but pauper aliens have not increased (15498-15501). Repatria- tion cases vary but slightly, except in 1900; in 1902 967 were repatriated, 46^ per cent, of those who applied (15502-15504). Witness would restrict unde- sirables (15508-15513 and 15548-15553). The remarks of the Board in 1894 with reference to immigrants pressing on those who have resided respectively seven years and upwards, and less than seven yeans, do not apply to other years, because the same feature has not been exhibited since (15517-15520). Witness does not think increased stringency of American laws will increase English immigration; aliens will look for another outlet, England not being an outlet (15522- 15532). Thinks the resources of the Board will be adequate to deal with the situation, even if a crisis occurs, and admitting that at present the only barrier against increased immigration is the Board's volun- tary action (15533-15540). Regarding the question from the paupers point of view, immigration is not increasing (15541-15545). Witness deems an " unde- sirable " one who comes with an obvious physical in- capacity, one of poor physique, a convicted criminal, a souteneur, procurer, and prostitute; would deport such, if foreign countries would take: them back (15554-15559). The attempt to'persuade ap- plicants' to move to places round London has been fluctuating, but the Board sends very few to provinces (15560-15561). Register of 1901 shows 243 cases re- lieved in Stepney, 489'in Whitechapel, and 535 in St. George's ; the Jews are difficult to disseminate (15562-15568). Industrial dwellings have been built in outlying districts (15569-15571). Restriction will only deal with the fringe of the question of over- crowding throughout London (15574-15578). The local authority must do its work (15581-15582). The United Hebrew Charities in America have asked the London Board to make special inquiries in the case of women wishing to join their husbands, but the latter adopts an independent attitude (15583-155921). Beyond expressing a- willingness to exclude unde- sirables, witness does not wish to express an opinion oil the general question (15595-15599). The Board repatriates those who, apart from physical disqualifi- cations, have no reason to come and prove failures (15600-15603). It is safe to> affirm that all cases of necessitous foreigners, who are Jews are dealt with by the Board of Guardians and by the Russo-Jewish Com- mittee, with the exception of the Jewish Soup Kitchen;, the Jewish Dispe>rsion Committee has been only recently formed; the North London Groceries Fund and the charities which distribute bread, meat, and coal do so for the most part through the Board, which only relieves after six months' residence; the United Synagogue distributes clothing and blankets to persons married in a synagogue in England, but cases are investigated through the Board; the fact that applications are not made within the six months points to the probability that the aliens have enough to keep them at first (15605-15637). Beyond a, spas- modic eircularisation of leaflets abroad, the Board has no organisation to warn persons not to come; witness thinks circulars have been effective (15638-15645). The Board deals with undesirable paupers from first to last, and gets rid of the bulk of the evil by re- patriation ; failures are generally willing to go, and undesirables or f ailures returning to their native home deters other similar undesirables from coming (15646- 15657). English Jews are not repatriated (15660). An obligation should be placed upon the shipping com- panies which introduce undesirables, which should be responsible! for them within a limited time; a diffi- culty might arise through the utilisation of another port than those prescribed, but this might be dealt with by an order in council (15663-15674). A standard would have to be set up during a certain period, during which the shipping companies' obligation would last (15677). The Consular certificate suggests difficulties; it has not been successful in America; nor has America successfully excluded undesirables ac- cording to the American correspondent and the " New York Herald," all which shows the difficulty of restric- tive legislation (15682-15685). Restriction by volun- tary effort has proved successful, because in spite of ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Cohen, L. L. (Examination)—continued. increasing number of arrivals, the number of cases has not increased; the repatriated are landed at Hani- . burg, but Germany would not admit Russians unless they had through tickets (15692-15696). The Board have had very few applications from men excluded from America (15698-15701). The figures of the Board of Trade of those en route, and of those not stated to be en route, if correct, emphasise witness's point that the number of poor amongst these was very small (15702-15709). The Board gives relief to the sick, and to those with large families when trade is slack ; and helps men to start in business, partly by a gift and partly by a loan, e.g., in 1902, of 4,806 cases dealt with, 193 were permanently helpless, six whilst fathers were in gaol, two illegitimates, 70 unmarried women, 635 widows, 306 deserted wives, 18 with lunatic husbands, 42 orphan and deserted children, 2,638 general, having, an adult male head of family, 711 emigrants, 185 wives assisted to join their husbands (15712). The figure 380 would not repre- sent all the paupers arriving in 1902 _ (Table A), through the necessity of six months' residence; but of these 260 were repatriated, to whom the obligation does not apply (15715). In 1900, an exceptional year, the Board repatriated 1,739 cases, at a cost of £3,782, the immigrants (about 5,000 in number) contributing £1,234 (15716-15719). Many of these tried to succeed and failed, and would not at first have been excluded from America (15721-15723). Witness agrees with Dr. Shirley Murphy and Dr. Loane that the non-enforcement of the law (has led to the overcrowding in Stepney; the Board will not assist unless applicants remove from overcrowded premises, and they generally do so ; increased rents accentuate the difficulty of judging house accommo- dation, and the Board takes them into consideration in weekly allowances ; hardship would be inflicted by closing an area at first, but such a closure would act as a preventive ; the hardship would last until a Jewish community had grown up elsewhere (15725- 15740). 'Hie Board does not deal with the reforma- tory or "industrial boys, nor with criminals, unless to repatriate at the request of the United Synagogue. As a rule, Jews are honest and law abiding (15742 15743). Cohen, Maurice. For 17 years has 'been a naturalised British, sub- ject. Is a mantle manufacturer. Describes how in 1880 he was induced to start in England the making of ladies' tailor-made garments, which were then made abroad, chiefly in Germany and France. In 1886 commenced manufacturing himself, and now employs over 180 persons, about 50 of whom are English Christians, about 50 English Jews, the remainder being aliens, who do the principal parts of the work—e.g., 'basting and fitting, which the English will not do. There are mow probably not less than 20,000 working at the trade, alien and English! together. Aliens iare more reliable thtain the English. Witness employs a latrge amount of protected labour, Half English, 'and half J ewish (18967-18979). The majority are regular hands, paid by time; from 35s. to 50s. per week (19017- 19019). It is a season trade (189i81-18993). The majority of aliens on arrival (have a knowledge of the trade (18995). Witnesis describes men's hours of work (19004-19006). Although, there is a large export trade ftfom England, we still 'have to import considerably from Germany (19039-19042). Witness explains his action in respect to the houses in Albert Square which tie owns (19043-19046). Cohen, W. D. An English boot laster, contends that a foreigner can earn as. much as an Englishman, although the latter is a superior mechanic, because the first- named can last three dozen pairs, of inferior boots compared to two dozen superior boots by the native. Ten years ago, before the introduction of the boot- lasting machine, wages were better than at present (20056-20058). The competition is between the manufacturer with machinery and the one without. Witness discusses hours of labour, and describes how the foreigner makes an excellent shopmate. A greener learning his trade cannot be said to be sweated because he gets poor wages at first (20018- 20023). Foreigners do not work much with the machines in lasting, because they have not the skill; they are entirely worked by natives (20029-20031).ANALYSIS. ' 85 Cohen, W. D.—continued., There is. very, little outdoor labour in this class of work -^200^200431,; 20051-20052). Since the. strike of 1600 the indoor workshop has become an establii&hed fact; but some firms 'have broken away from the agreement (20062-20065). Witness gives his , l . Is member of the teeds (uity Gouncil; and Secretary of the Leeds Trades and Labour Council, representing ; about 18,000 members, atxd some 80 Trades Unions ; all trades are represented in which Jews and native Englishmen are admitted' (14088-14904). Only one society, consisting of Jewish operatives only, is affi- liated (14905-14097). Council has passed resolution protesting against the continual influx of aliens, as pernicious (14998). The trades in which aliens have entered have not improved in advanced wages or reduced hours, as other trades (15000-15002). They have displaced English labour, especially in the slipper- making trade, which they now monopolise as a sweated industry of low rates and long hours (15003- 15007). The prices in the slipper trade sunk from 1888 to 1894 from 6s. 6d. to 8s. a dozen to 3s. 0d. a. dozen; a strike occurred, with the result that a minimum price of 4s. was fixed; greeners came in, and again brought down the price (15008-15015). To earn a decent wage in this trade very long hours are neces- sary but it is not so seasonal as the clothing trade (15016-15017). In the Leylands area of Leeds natives have been entirely displaced, with the result that rents are high and overcrowding is caused by _ sub- letting (15018-15021). The City Council proceeds by bye-laws (15022-15024). The tenant often pays a higher rent than the rent-book shows, /f^cthe ten- dencv of rents has been to increase (15025-150^7). "Witness attaches no value to the Census, which gives 7 500 foreigners in Leeds; the population amounts to about 450.000, and an official of the Corporation esti- mates the alien population in the Leyland quarter at 7 550 (1,510 houses, five to a house), but there are other districts populated by Jews_; there are also Many second and third generations of Jews in Leeds (15028- 15037). A large amount of home work, resulting in excessive hours and reduced wages, exists in Leeds among the foreign population (15038-;15039). Witness ; does not advocate a general restriction, but will pro- hibit the destitute, those who'cannot earn their living, through mental or physical infirmity, and criminals ; u the character of the aliens arriving is worse than it was, but there is not a large criminal population m Leeds (15040-15045). Depression in the labour market should! involve restriction, not exclusion; capable aliens not'objected to, but the destitute, who cause sweating; when aliens first came over there was work ; for them (15046-15051). The aliens when they took possession of the Leylaad area displaced a respectable working-class population,: but they are themselves good citizens (15052-15057). They do not improve rapidly, working, for very low wages for two or_three . years; many then become small employers (15058- 15050) They - cannot make a whole garment or a •whole shoe, but fall readily into the system of sub- division which .existed before the advent of aliens, and is chiefly due ; to machinery; sub-division occurs m ^ manv large factories in Leeds where no Jews are employed (15060-15066 and 15079-15084). There are ' jnany, female workers in Leeds m the clothing trade (15667-15068). The invasion of aliens commenced about 20 vears ago, but the increase is marked during the. last five years (15070-15071). • The competition of greeners is, also bad forfche aJ1^'n®_a].r_e^r^ ^ ^ gets higher wages in time (15072-15078). Aliens do ■not .seem to, go. into oilier industries than that of, . clothing and slipper-niaking, and of the lighter class < ,of,boot and shoe making (15085). ' Is Secretary of the-National Vigilance Society, and of' the National Movement foar th^ Suppression of the ^hite Slave Traffic ^ has :been in touch with vicious ' aliens 18 years, i.e!,\those whp not cross the border line of crime (12568-12573). fourteen years ago found 6144. Coote, William Alexander. » Analysis. there was a complete organisation for exporting and --- importing women (12575). England is a sort of halt- ing ground on the way to and from certain countries, e.g., from Austria and Hungary to Buenos Ay res; the price, of the girls is so very high in South America, that they are most lucrative (12577-12580). Those who come voluntarily are generally demoralised when they come, but girls who are brought over by souteneurs are younger; both classes are largely represented here; the latter class reside near Soho, in the various mansions1; at present the law cannot touch souteneurs. (12581-12588). The foreigners introduce special forms of vice, and they blackmail and rob (12580-12591)- "Women of this class should be repatriated (12506). Then a man or woman in possession of a girl should be bound to prove that he or she is con- ducting a respectable business; this immigra- tion trade is> entirely in the hands of for- eigners (12507-12601). In the course of 12 years 65 girlsi were1 slent to Buenos Ayres from England, and 3,211 from Russia (12602). In the East End of London things have improved (12605-12606). The Official Conference in Paris a short time ago suggested a method of repatriation which has been passed by the Senate last July; Article 3 of the Con- vention says: " The Government agrees so far as is possible, and the law permits provisionally, and with a view to repatriation, to put the victims of criminal traffic, if without means, into the charge of public institutions "; this has been signed by the English Government (12614-12616). Witness has established committees in every capital in Europe (12617). Would repatriate without limit of time (12621-12623). In America they board ships and reject such girls; the same law should be here (12625-12626). Would put the matter under the Home Office, who should deport girls if proved to the satisfaction of the Court to be prostitutes (12627-12632). A return and second offence- should have greater penalties (12635). Witness does not think the place of a deported foreign woman would be supplied by an English girl; English prostitution does not pay, and things are improving (12641-12640). The recent amendments of the Vagrancy Act making it penal to live on the proceeds of prostitution has had a great effect in the country; it wants extension (12650-12651). CORSER, HADEtf. One of the Magistrates of Worship Street Police Court. District includes parts of the Metropolitan Borough, a large part of Finsbury, Shoreditoh., Bethnal Green, Stepney, Poplar, Hackney, and Islington (12827 and 12880-12891). Refers specially to two points: (i.) Increasing number of inter- preted cases; (ii.) the many cases of street ob- struction by aliens (12828). In 1902 : Number of charges, 6,687 ; number of summonses, 6,760 ; total,, 13,447 ; of whom 1,279 were aliens—10 per cent. (12828). Has had considerable difficulty with inter- preters. At present he lias a coffee-house keeper, who receives 7s. 6d. the first day, and 5s. for each subsequent one. He also receives fees when called to the station by the police, and last year over £70- in wages cases alone, e.g., about £200 to> £230 a year. He is an honest man, but subjected to- great tempta- tions. The interpreter's fees are added to the costs, if possible. Suggests a permanent official attached to the Court, with a guaranteed sum (12831-12836- and 12903-12907). 414 were charged in 1902 with obstructions in the streets, chiefly aliens \12837). Alien crime is greatly on the increase (12839). 295 wages casesj confined to the tailoring and cabinet- making trades, almost entirely between aliens, were brought to the Court in 1902. Aliens prefer Police Court to County Court> because they pay 2s. for a summons instead of a much larger hearing fee, also because of greater expedition. But these cases make the Magistrate's Court a Civil Court, and take an undue proportion of time (12840-12844 and 12908 and 12909). On arrival a greener is taken, boarded, and given a shilling or two for the first week or so. He goon asks for , wages, 15s. The master putsi him off with a vague answer. The greener makes his claim, which the ,master repudiates, or when brought to Court declares he has paid, him. Neither side can produce evidence of any value, as it, is . evidently , corrupt. In 99, cases out of 1Q0 witness decides for plaintiff '(12883-12887). The following cases oame before the Court in 1902Assaults, 227 ; betting and gambling, 49 ; drunk and disorderly, 67; M 286 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis, Corser, Haden—continued. 1 —~ larcenies, 110 ; minor offences, 10 ; burglaries being included in the larcenies. Tlhe aliensi were all Yiddish speaking ; aliens would represent about 1 per cent>. of criminals (12850-12861 and 12896). Witness thinks Russians and Poles aa?e a sober people (12862). The regulations affecting costermongers by the Metro- polis Street Amendment Act do not prevent coster- mongers being interfered with if obstructing the thoroughfare. The result is an enormous increase of such cases, and! witness would stop them, except in streets approved of by the Commissioner of Police. Einds many costers prefer going to prison than paying a, fine (12863-12869 and 12876-12882). Witness thinks legal machinery to check overcrowding ample, regard- ing the question of prevention by way of punish- ment (12870). When he makes an order he does not consider consequences to tenants evicted (12956- 12961). Thinks there should be restriction placed upon alien immigration; that every alien should be prevented from landing unless he could produce a passport stating certain qualifications. Such regula- tions would have a great preventive effect, and ship- owners would thus be interested in whom they brought (12871-12875 and 12942-12943). Cases of Jewish ownership of houses have been brought to the notice of witness;, not judicially, but from visits of inspectors to houses built in accordance with the London Building Act; found an alien wais always the owner (12897-12898). Regards dealing with the overcrowding question like stirring a bucket of water which does not decrease the volume; what is spilled will be absorbed, unless someone pours in more (12900-12902). Witness does not think that the language difficulty helps aliens, but their clannishness and refusal to give evidence is a serious obstacle to justice (12910-12918). Alien crime will undoubtedly increase with growth of alien population (12919- 12922). The tendency of local authorities not to en- force the law, of course, fosters overcrowding (12923- 12928), but the notices have been fairly successful, and the overcrowding to that extent abated; and if the law were enforced all over the police districts, not by local authorities, but by the action of the law, over- crowding, because a criminal offence, would probably cease (12936-12941). A bitter feeling against aliens does exist (12928-12929). The three Courts which deal with aliens would be Worship Street, Thames, and Marlborough Street (12945-12946). Approves Mr. Mead's bill to a certain extent, but not altogether the details (12962-12966). Likes the idea that immigrants should have papers or passports. JDalton, Rev. Arthur Edison. Rector of Stepney Parish and Rural Dean; has been six years in Stepney, and 22 years in the East End (10137-10139). The alien population is flowing into the parish, which comprises the eastern end of Stepney, and displacing natives (10141-10146). There is con- sequently a very strong feeling against them (10148- 10154). The Jews are buying house property largely (10155-10156), consequently rents are rising, and the English population is being displaced (10157). An improvement in the moral tone has certainly not been effected by the aliens (10153-10169). The Bishop of Stepney describes the growing foreign- character of stepney (10170). The immigrants into Eastern Step- ney are recent arrivals, some of the Church schools •have 50 per cent. Jewish children (10172-10173). The Sunday observance in the East End is becoming less =and less (10174). The sobriety of the Jews is remark- able (10176). Witnes* describes the boundaries of the old parish of Stepney (10182-10192), and criticises the Census, on the ground that for many reasons the increase of the population must be greater than that enumerated (10193-10229). Davies, Rev. Wilfrid Harold. Rector of Spitalfields. Has been in East End 13 years—Whitechapel, Bethnal Green, and Spitalfields ; the population of the parish of Spitalfields 25,000, of whom about 15,000 are Jews; all the aliens except a few Russian Roman Catholics are Jews (9701-9705). Bitter feeling of natives engendered by the knowledge -that Jews have ousted them from a most desirable residential quarter; 25 years ago late Prebendary Harry Jones favourably contrasted Stepney with Westminster with respect to rents (9706). Population of streets entirely changed; whereas the Census deal- ing with the County Council area of London showed Davies, Rev. Wilfrid Harold—continued. the population per acre to be 57, Bethnal Green is 175, Whitechapel 195, Spitalfields 333 per acre; this, high percentage shows that the immigrants are not artisans, but men working for small wages, sub- letting because paying high rents, whereas English would have better accommodation (9707-9712). Witness quotes a paper on overcrowding, read by him at a meeting of the Whitechapel Board of Guardians, showing excessive overcrowding by aliens in Spitalfields, regardless oif sex; how very many pay Is. a night for a room ; how he had a census taken of one or two typical alleys, which proved that families are compelled to herd together, all of whom; because casual labourers and very poor, must live near their work; how immigrants pay exorbitant rents because they intend to live under forbidden, i.e., overcrowd- ing, conditions; the sanitary conditions, however, being good; how it may be fairly said that the aliens are the cause of increase of rents, and decrease in earning power of certain of the poor, though they have, on the other hand, contributed to the introduc- tion of new industries (9713-9736). Many immigrants have a kind of trained endurance, and greeners can live as English cannot, yet they pay higher rents than those who live in better buildings, e.g., Rothschild and Nathaniel Buildings ; the alien population has a lower standard of living (9739-9740). Key money is of two kinds, (a) paid to outgoing" tenant by would-be occupier for priority of application, who thus secures the key, and (b) paid to the landlord to turn an exist- ing tenant out, the tenancy being weekly (9741-9744). Thousands of aliens are employed regularly on Sundays in tailoring and boot-making, and English- men employed by Jews must work half the Sunday instead of the whole of Saturday ; new arrivals chiefly desecrate the Sunday, removing furniture, washing, etc., the English Jews being more considerate ; the Commission will probably remedy the evil, but the employment of English Christians in factories, work- shops, etc., is becoming more common (9746-9756). (See provision of Factory Act respecting Sunday trad- ing (9818-9822). The English grievances are : (a) that whole streets are passing out of English ownership and passing into Jewish hands (9849-9850); (b) that the alien immigration has raised rents and lowered wages ; (c) that the exclusiveness of Jews has resulted in the disappearance of small English shops; (d) the general thoughtlessness of their actions (e.g., at the King's Dinner) due greatly to their suspicion, and to their belief that the rector of the parish has great power to injure them; (e) the fact that they have come over to make a convenience of the English- man, with whom, however, they will not associate (9757-9765). The Jews are, however, very sober, thrifty, law-abiding, domestic, desirous to obtain in- dependence, anxious to become educated, as shown by attendance at a school supported by witness. They have purified the district, having wiped out areas of vice, though, of course, the demolition of houses and creation of large dwellings have contributed their quota to the general improvement (9765-9771). Wit- ness suggests (1) that the responsible head of an alien family should show possession of at least £10 on arrival, or, preferably, before starting, and a know- ledge of a tr&de (9845). Now human cargoes are deposited daily, met by agents, and scattered about, the place, without means, e.g., a Russian cab driver, with wife and three children, within a few days applies for medical relief; guardians wish to send him back, but he prefers to stay, earning 7s. a week while he is learning tailoring; this regulation might be evaded, but it would be a deterrent (9790-9794); (2) that an alien must be physically and mentally fit; at present feeble-minded aliens are to be seen in the streets, deplorably unclean (e.g., Russian lads, 17 or 18, many on the verge of consumption); (3) that an alien immi- grant claiming to have a wife should prove the mar- riage (e.g., by the production of a certificate), to pre- vent the deplorable desertion of women who are not legally married. The Jewish Board of Guardians can prove that the desertion of one woman for another causes the greatest trouble (9772-9787). Sometimes a.. man emigrates without his wife until he can make a home for her, but generally it is a positive desertion fqr another (9806-9807). Aliens apply very little for relief from the Board of Guardians other than medical (9788-9789). Though Jewish competition reducesANALYSIS. 87 Da vies, Rev. Wilfrid Harold—continued. wages, it would still exist, as the consumer would get his cheap goods from Germany (9796-9804). The in- vasion of Jews into Spitalfields is not modern; in 1806 an infant school was built for Jews, and there were Jews in Spitalfields in 1620, as is proved by a book published in this year, called " The World Tost at Tennis "; the great inrush began 1870 to 1880 (9812- '9816). With reference to overcrowding, witness doubts that it is to a great extent due to demolition of houses for the erection of warehouses; the primary cause is high rents, which drive out the Englishmen, who cannot pay them; if the local authorities could have effectually dealt with the question rents would ihave been reduced (9824-9837 and 9854-9856); over- crowding also involves increase of children, which means increase of school accommodation (9838-9841). Witness has always received the co-operation of the sanitary authorities with regard to overcrowding (9842-9843). ID avis, Benjamin, Secretary WhiteicthapfsG. and Spitalfields Qoster- mongers' Uuion. The Whitechiaipel and Spitalfields Costermongers' Uniom consists of Jewish 'amd Gentile members, the only qualification 'being that members must be bond fide costermongers. It is the Biggest union in London, both in members and finance, and admits foreigners. Witness denies that the ioreign costers are a cause of offence. Of late years there has. been a considerable increase' in the num- ber of f oreign costermomgers, but there has. also- been ;a very considerable increase in the demand for their goods. It is untrue that foreign costers. do not buy fairly at the market, and they do not attempt to undersell the English. The opposition to- f oreigners is largely due to 'a prejudice against the Jews (19934). Ignorance of their [rights makes the foreigners move about more than the natives, and this brings the police doiwn. upon them ; after that, if they join a union, they usually conform to its rules (19944- 19949). The foreigners probably form about oniei-third of "the costermongers. They have not much knowledge •of the English language, but they are abile to buy and sell (19962-19956). The union does its best to prevent friction, between shopkeepers and stallholders by removing the stall- holder and placing another man in 'his place, Whose wares would not come into competition with those of the shopkeeper. About 75 per cent, are union men, and with regard to the rest the union does what it can (19967-19975). IDenniss; Captain, E. W. Is Captain in the East London Royal Engineers; recently assistant officer in the Bethnal Green Museum during six years, now in South Kensington; is chairman of the managers of two Whitechapel Board schools, and interests himself in the Jewish lads' Brigade, the membership of which exceeds 1,000, formed for the purpose of " inculcating habits of discipline, manliness and honour" (18266-18269 ^and 18278-18283). Thinks Jewish children compare very favourably with children of natives, and are 'better dressed (18270). The Jews are very sober, and live well; Jewish boys born in England become quite English in their manner; thinks the Jewish Lads' "Brigade improves the physique and morals of the members; Jewish boys appreciate, and have proved their capability to excel in, athletics (18273-18274). Thinks attempts to proselytise cause ill feeling ; Jews "being really religious, and most strict in religious observances, sacrificing much of their time to their material lossi (18274 and 18300-18302). Does not -think the alien population has increased much during the last six years (18284). As manager of Board school, finis the children very quick at learning languages, and take to games keenly; they leave about the age of 14; many on leaving take up cabinet- making, boot-making, tailoring; some become com- mercial travellers (18288-18295). I' DE' Rutzen, Sir Albert. Chief Magistrate at Bow Street (23627). Endorses Mr. Henry and Sir Edward Bradford's views, giving power to the judge to add to his sentence that the alien criminal shall leave the country, or, in default, 7be treated as a rogue and vagabond1; this would soon De Rutzen, Sir Albert—continued. rid the country of alien criminals ; assistance to leave should be given if the alien is impecunious (23630- 23638). Dickinson, John. Magistrate of Thames Police Court for 13 years. Deals with the causes of overcrowding : (1) Excess of children belonging to one family; (2) transmigrants who stay en route for a short time (14846). As concerns procedure, 21 days would be ample for conviction from the date of the nuisance; notices, however, are generally effective; it has not been the practice to take proceedings for penalty in the first instance until there has been notice to abate; the proper procedure is to issue a - notice, and not to take penal proceedings until the proper time has been allowed to elapse and the notice has not been abated; proceedings may then be taken either for closing order, after two convic- tions, or penalty, or both ; during the years 1900, 1901, 1902, witness has had 33 cases, Mr., Mead,his colleague, 9 ; up to the end of 1901, there were only orders to abate with costs, but in January, 1902, witness sug- gested a penalty of Is. should be asked for as well, in order that a conviction might be obtained; the shilling was not so much penal as to secure a con- viction, and thus enable the magistrate to grant a closing order, which can only be done after two con- victions within a period of three months, under Section 7; thus the landlord would have greater reason to look after the house (14848-14863). A period of three months is, however, too short; witness would not limit it absolutely to twelve months (14864- 14870). ^ Witness would do away with the necessity of intimation and notice, i.e., put the public authority on the same ground as the private individual, who, under Section 12, may proceed at once without notice (14871-14874). Witness has stated a case which may remove the difficulty arising from the decision of Wetheritt v. Cautley (14914). From the 27th of May, 1896, to the 27th of May, 1902, 539 closing orders were made throughout the Metropolitan district, and in the Thames Police Court 98 (14915-14919). The overcrowding in the East End is not due to the supineness of the local authorities (14925). With reference to crimes in H Division (14926-14933), se0 Table. Crime has grown in magnitude with popula- tion ; the alien prostitutes, chiefly Russians, Polish Jewesses, and Germans, have driven the English prostitutes eastwards; many have recently arrived; souteneurs are hard to punish, through women's dis- inclination to prosecute them ; many streets are going down in morality, the fact that- many criminals cannot speak English proves that they have recently arrived, and some of the crimes—robbery, burglary, and shop-breaking—show that they are professional criminals (14935-14955). Witness has noticed a sort of invasion of professional criminals; they come separately, some as first class passengers ((14959- 14962). Some (e.g., O.'s case) plant their lunatics on the rates (14956). The influx of professional crimi- nals has increased during the last few years (14970). America's rejections also come here—" D. G.'s" case (14972-14973). ^ Street-walking and immorality are greatly increasing ; woman constantly changing their names ; they take single rooms, which become houses under Weatheritt y. Cantlay (14977-14986V The majority of the convicted pay their fines (14987). Dix, George Augustus, ^ House and Insurance Agent in Stepney (5286-5288). Speaks of deterioration of district, overcrowding, dis- placement of shopkeepers, and ill-feeling, and rise of rents, caused by advent of alliens (5289-5301, 5389- 5399). The assessment is no criterion of the rent actually paid, the landlord and tenant both giving wrong returns (5502-5529, 5420-5428). Witness, gives instances of immorality (5331-5334) and of over- crowding (5335-5338), and of loss of business by natives (5338-5353, 5380-5382, 5428-5432). No anti-Semitic feeling exists (5355-5356). English shopkeepers often let upper floors ito aliens. Aliens prefer EngHsh landlords (5357-5360). Witness com- plains of coarse habits of aliens, and of their socialis- tic principles, and hostility to the country (5363- 5369, 5400-5405). Hats had many proofs that in- surance companies object to insuring property of88 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Dix, George Augustus—continued. , aliems (5370-5377). Key money is a great abuse (5383-5384). The only remedy against the evils is to check the inflow (5385). Eck, Rev. Herbert. Rector of Bethnal Green for 15 years (10013-10016). The character of the district has deteriorated, especi- ally the part that borders on the borough of Stepney; the streets have become more squalid in the last five years, the foreign population extending eastward and northward (10017-10031). The population of Bethnal Green is 129,000; the foreign population, according to the Census, comprises about 3,400 Russian and Polish Jews (10032-10034). The Jewish population seem to shift very much from place to place, other foreigners taking their place (10035-10042). A great many foreign children are in the Board Schools, some being half Jewish (10043). Rents have greatly increased, and there has been a great deal of change of ownership of the houses (10044-10046). The native shopkeepers have suffered through the natural tendency of foreigners to deal with foreigners (10047-10050). An anti-Semitic and bitter feeling seems on the increase (10051-10054); due also to the arrogancy of the foreigners (10055-10059). Witness advocates fair courts and control of key money (10063-10067). The principal occupations of foreigners are tailoring,boot- making to a certain extent, and, cabinet making (10068-10072). Great difficulty is experienced in the schools by the children being unable to speak English, but they pick it up very quickly (10074-10079). Over- crowding has been increased by foreigners in Bethnal Green (10080-10082); but it must be noted that as the population has not increased, alteration in the residential areas by demolition of houses and erection of business or other premises must be chiefly the cause of overcrowding (10092-10112). The aliens live together, and are very temperate, and show no moral deterioration, their defects being a tendency to over- crowd, and want of cleanliness (10119-10124). The foreign population in Bethnal Green is more in the nature of an overflow from Stepney (10134). The ' inhabitants displaced by the Boundary Street scheme came into the Census of 1891, but afterwards went further afield, and were replaced by a superior class of people (10135-10136). Eddis, F. E. Secretary to the Royal Commission on Alien Immigration. • For Report on visit to Grimsby, Hull, and Liverpool, see Minutes of evidence (21712-21713). . For report on visit to Rotterdam, see Minutes of Evidence (21713*). Ehrenburg, Israel. Is Chairman of the Synagogue Building Committee, and President and Senior Trustee of various Hebrew charities in Reading (20002). Since 1885 aliens have increased, 80 per cent, of the Jewish population in Reading coming from Whitechapel (20003-20005). They have always subscribed liberally to all under- takings; there is no exclusive dealing in Reading; they live in cottages ranging from 7s. to 14s,, and sometimes take in single boarders.; they are cleanly in their habits ; their wages range from 6s. 6d. to 10s. a day of 12 ana 13 hours (20006-20009). Some have become owners of freehold and leasehold houses (20016): Emanuel, Chas. H. L. . Secretary, and Solicitor of the Jewish Board of Deputies, the principal business of which is to appoint . secretaries for the registration of Jewish marriages, and is the representative body of the Jews of the United Kingdom (16565-16569). The attention of the Board was called to the question of alien immigration - about four years'ago;; since then witness has examined statistics, and finds anti-aliens have greatly exagger- > ated the number, having counted those " not stated to be en route " as being not en route (16571). Witness describes the Board of Trade's method of dealing with the year's figures which divides the traffic into (1) inter-Continental traffic, (2) extra Continental traffic, and adopting the Board's system, viz., striking a balance, shows that the total increase, after deduct- Emanuel, Chas. H, L.—continued. ing sailors of the foreign population, is, in 1901, 8,950,. as compared with 13^798 in 1900, nor would the- Board's alteration in dealing with the seamen in 1901. —i.e.j not deducting them in bulk—influence the fact that the decrease in 1901 shows a considerable reduc- tion of, roughly, 35 per cent. (16571-16572). Because, pari passu, deductions must be made in both years; the deaths of foreigners during the year reduces the increases ; thus the average increase of eight years,. 1894-1901, is less than 6,000 (16574). Witness com- pares this increase with that stated in a letter of Sir- Howard Vincent to Lord Salisbury on August 10th, 1901, which represented that five times as many alien settlers had arrived within 4^ years as the Board of Trade shows had arrived within eight years ; whereas- the Immigration Reports show that 1894 to 1901 only 47,536 were added to the population, they show that- 439,842 arrived " not stated to be en route "—i.e., only one in ten settled here; in 1900 124,722 emigrated from England to the United States, British North. America, Australia, the Cape, and Natal, and other- places outside Europe (16574-16584). Witness, how- ever, accepts statement that these figure© represent foreigners of all classes (16585-16591). The Board of Trade gives 71,700 in this year as actually en routey therefore the balance, 53,600, must be amongst those not " stated to be en route" (16595-16596). The- Jewish Board of Deputies protests against the sub- division of those " en route " and those " not stated to. be en route published in the Alien Lists as mislead- ing (16597). The Census figures bear out the Board of Trade figures; great attention was paid to the pre- paration of the Census by means of committees, cir- culars from the Chief Rabbi, etc.; every person of foreign birth was enumerated as a foreigner; those born in England should not be so enumerated (16597- 16598). The foreign population, according to the Census of 1901, in the four East End boroughs is 63,673, or 8*9 of the population ; omitting Stepney,, 9,000, or 2-3 per cent., Finsbury 2*43, Kensington. 2-64, Hampstead! 2*76, St. Pancras 3*46, Marylebone 4*17, City of London 4*61, Westminster 6*46, and Holborn 9*6 (16598-16601). Mr. Foot's contention that the overcrowding problem has been greatly in- creased by the foreigner is disproved by the fact that the increase of the population between 1891 and 1901- had been only 700; whereas to relieve the overcrowd- ing 7,000 to 8,000 must be turned out; nor is the overcrowding in Stepney due to the foreigners, as. without foreigners it would be overcrowded. Stepney is now a manufacturing centre; the foreigner comes*, to be near his fellows and near his work; there are 12,500 Russians and Poles as tailors, 3,200 as boot, shoe, and slipper makers, and 2,000 to 3,000 as cabinet ; makers; the natives work outside and live within; foreigners live and work inside ; native® probably benefit; foreigners do not like over- crowding, but they necessarily go to the centre? of labour; in Stepney space is wasted by one or two-storeyed houses; enormous areas are' ready for development, which is checked -by the- defective state of the workmen's train service (16601). The charge of destitution on the part of alien arrivals- is disproved by consular evidence and police reports ; London and Manchester have alone showed a slight increase, and in these cities 1901 has shown ;a large decrease over previous years (16601). Local Govern- ment Board statistics show decrease from 1899, in spite of the fact that in previous years all aliens who had not acquired a settlement were included ; also the Poor Law figures of the Board of Trade (16604). The East End has only a shade more poverty than South, North, and West of London, and about half that of Central London; the statistics collected by the Jewish Board of Guardians throughout England disprove increase (16604-16605). Also destitute- foreigners go from place to place, causing duplica- tion ; the relief given is very, varied ; thei Free, Motza. Relief Fund proves decrease of destitution (16605- 16607). The absence of foreign labour means Con- tinental competition, but it must be noted that in spite of the .additional foreign labour, the pauper statistics of the Board of Trade show a steady decrease • of those out of work and who come upon the rates (e.g., in the Whitechapel Union between 1870 ajid 1900 of 60*8 ; also a decrease in the number of persons out of work in proportion to population ; by far the fewest being in the clothing trade (16607-16610). See tablesANALYSIS. 89 JEmanuel Chas. H. L.—continued. showing persons affected by increases and decreases in wages (16611). Hours of labour also, as shown in the annual abstract of labour statistics of the Board of Trade, have been reduced (16619). The plea that if aliens were ejected their places could not be occupied by native labour is confirmed by the facts that the total number out of work has steadily decreased; and further that the boot and shoe- trade, according to the Census, actually shows a shrinkage of labour, the employed in 1891 being 39,000, as against in 1901 only 34,000, including 4,000 foreigners; and that the clothing trade only shows an increase of 12,000 in 1901, the figure of this year including 13,000 foreigners; the inference from the .shrinkage of labour being that there is no margin of labour, unless the trade itself has shrunk, which is not the fact; machinery having probably shortened the requirements of the labour market (16624-16625). Jn the ladies' tailor-made garment trade there has been no ill-effect on English workers by the employ- ment of foreigners (16625). Home work is much com- . moner among natives than among foreigners, as ..shown by the Census comparative figures (16625). Witness contests statement that aliens have ruined jiative tradesmen, illustrating the milk trade, and ^contends that if aliens only deal exclusively, it is ■only through lack of enterprise on the part of the native shopkeepers (see also 16754). The Germans cut us out for the same reason (16625). Evidence has , -shown that the charge of abnormal criminality cannot be brought against aliens, and they must be known ,by the police as foreigners; the figures lately have, however, been higher, especially those which relate to gambling and illicit stills, neither of which are exactly criminal; from serious crimeisi aliens are practically free ; prison statistics show the proportion of aliens to have increased from 1*15 to 1-35 (see also :.l6754-16760); restriction on the immigrant class would not affect the incoming of criminals (16632). Wit- ness' experience shows that the children of Jews be- come thoroughly Anglicised in tastes and habits; they .appreciate athleticism, become volunteers, and are loyal ; they are very intelligent (16632). The Jews "have aims different to> other foreigners ; they make the country of settlement their home; they could not - therefore be a source of danger in event of a foreign -war (16632). The overcrowding is due not so much to the aliens (who, of course, are a contributory cause, :16635) as to laxity of administration ; it has also been -exaggerated; the migration from the country will always produce overcrowding (16632). The aliens " have greatly benefited the shipping industry, 659,000 having transmigrated during the last ten years; difficulties to free immigration will divert this traffic to Germany (16632-16633) (see also 16738-16741). ^Summarising : The alien does not possess characteris- tics tending to the deterioration of the standard of life. He does not compete, having carved out a line of his own, which means the employment of English - capital, and the, direct and indirect employment of English workers;: he has not reduced wages ; he has nothing to do with the criminal classes, the Jews would welcome legislation against them ; the num- bers seeking Poor Law relief are decreasing (see also • statement of Rusian Consul-General, 16706-16712); - restriction would give unduly great power of rejection to a petty officer (see also 16744-16753); the sug- gested monetary test is bound to be a failure (16634). High rents are due to the necessity to live near work (16641). Overcrowding results from the existence of - factories and workshops in a residential area; restrict these (16649-16650). Close congested areas against natives and aliens (16651). Exclude the criminal, diseased, and immoral, and those chargeable when ■ they have obtained relief, and if hopelessly destitute ; Tio pecuniary test (16653-16660). If an excessive supply of labour arrived tending to deteriorate the labour market, restriction should be imposed, but at present this is not the case (16663-16665). zevans-Gordon, Major, W. E. M.J?, for Stepney, and a member of the Royal Coin- mission on Alien Immigration. For report on visit to Eastern Europe see Minutes of Evidence (13343- 13349). For report on the laws regulating alien im- migration into the United Sit ate s of America, see "Minutes of Evidence (16313-16314). vans, Herbert, Analysis One of His Majesty's Assist ant Inspectors of Fac- tories, employed March, 1895, to August, 1902, East London (11633). His especial function to inspect workshops (11634). Definition of workshop and powers of inspector' (11635-11637). Principal indus- tries subject to inspection. During 7^ years has paid 40,000 visits, to workshops by day and night, and on Sundays (11638). In Stepney practically every house entered. Some offenders are cautioned, and some proceeded against (11639). Offenders chiefly aliens (11640). Offences chiefly working before or after legal period, during specified meal hours, and neglecting to affix notice. Magistrates very helpful, but general ignorance of steps being taken through non-advertise- ment prevents magistrates' action being preventive (11641-11644, 11748-11752). At first visit of in- spector legal requirements are explained, notice affixed, but proprietors object to Yiddish notices (11645-11649). Legal provisions have been more observed, and aliens .assist the inspectors (11650- 11651). Greater evasion of the Actts in Soho, which is very cosmopolitan, than in Stepniey (11652- 11654). Occupiers are required to send a notice to the inspector within four weeks of commencing work. Many plead ignorance, and their migratory character causes great difficulty. The necessity to prove a month's occupation to secure a conviction should not bar proceedings. Aliens adopt many evasive tactics to keep within the law. Certification of workshops, as adopted by the* County Council when more than 40 are employed, would check sweating (11655-11656). Number of workshops in Stepney greatly influences overcrowding and alien immigration generally. If evasion is rendered impossible, especially that of em- ploying women and, young persons during illegal 'hours, the commercially offensive aliens will not oome to this country. The ease whereby the laws respecting Sunday trading can be evaded causes great resentment amongst the few Christians, left in Stepney (11657, 11985-11986). The respectable Jews discountenance tactics adopted by the sweater. Sunday labour should be conditional on approval by a factory inspector. Depopulation has been partly due to the erection of huge warehouses, e.g., wool warehouses in St. George's, which, however, employ native labour ; but principally caused by the development of industries for which the Jews are responsible. Each new workshop built demands workers who must live at hand. The native is not greatly affected, but the Jew must live.' there. High rents are duet to* the enhanced value of thei property, nor are rents, as workshops accommodate a large number of people, very excessive. The fact that houses are converted into workshops, although there is no structural addition, causes high renitls-. The extension of workshops is due to' "the tremendous development in labour (11657-11672). The enact- ment prescribing capacity for workers increases the demand for spacious workshops, and consequently enhances the pressure on native quarters. Native labour, as distinguished from native residents, has not been displaced, the bulk of such labour follow- - ing the native. The development of production for daily use by the foreigner has prevented the transfer of trade to other countries. The Britisher, though supplanted in his home, has received benefits from the foreigners' labour. Key money also drives out the native. In many respects the natives have bene- fited by the introduction of new methods by foreigners, e.g., in the leather and clothing trades.. English workers are employed, and the trade has within a decade trebled proportionately at an in- creased ratio ; in ispite of the inability of natives (women and young persons) to work on Sunday (Factory Act). Many adult natives do, however, work on Sunday, but not on Saturday. With reference to the Sunday work, the Jewish employer is helpless. Many of the aliens are on arrival possessed with the knowledge of a trade. If not, they soon develop capacity, but wages have always been sub- sisting (see also 12037-12034 and 12158-12160). Some- times immediately on arrival they fall into the hands of sweaters (principally in the boot trade), who are, however, diminshing as machinery increases. Sweat- ing only takes place in the leather trades (11673- 11704). (For witness's views on 'Sweating see 11762 11823 and 11844-11867) and (over which Factory In spector has no power, 11966-11982, 12042-12065). Ex90 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis. Evans, Herbert—continued. ---cept in the case of actual sweaters, aliens can hold their own, though hours may be long. Work done in Stepney in the clothing trade natives will not undertake, but in Soho the displacement of native labour is making headway. The1 native will not adopt sub-division of labour. In the boot trade there are about 30 different processes, each one easily learned (11705-11708, 12075-12084). There has been no fall in wages in leather trade in East London, as more work can hei done in a given time. The Leicester and Northampton trade has not affected the East End trade at all. A great chieck upon the increase' of aliens would be legal limitation of hours. Long hours and low wages are not synonymous, in Stepney. Aliens are better paid than natives. Tailors can make £3 to £4 per week (see also 12095-12103). Slipper makers can earn 30s-. a week (11709-11730, I2114-1212i). Witness thinks that the sanitary conditions of Stepney compare favourably with those of Soho. Mtany workshops are well constructed. Workshops are doing away with work in domestic rooms. That the habits of the aliens are not cleanly is due to their surroundings, which are attributable to the inertia of the local authorities. The f actory inspector has only power to proceed against " employment during over- time." Night inspection is necessary to prevent over- crowding. The procedure hampers improvement (11731, see 12189-12220). Witness gives further evi- dence on the district of Soho, the principal industries -of which are wearing apparel, tailoring, jewellery, cabinet making, and the various allied trades (11868- 11873). There are very few genuine workshops, being mainly domestic rooms, used as - workshops, poorly ventilated and insanitary as compared with Stepney (11875-11887). (For definition of " domestic workshop," see 12170, and of tenamented workshops, 12171.) In Soho there are large workshops, chiefly ■tailoring, let in sittings, accommodating about 200' persons, each of whom pays rent for a sitting. They are generally in good condition, being organised. The aliens preponderate. The best kind of work is done in them (11888-11894). The Swedes aire increas- ing slightly,, and are formidable competitors, the Ger- mans more so (11896, 11917). They do not displace native labour (11920-11922, 11956-11965, 12024-12032). The home workers, are largely aliens, who do less, skilled work (11897-11898). If the industry did not ajttract the aliens there would be more dissemination, which would be further encouraged by prohibition to build more work places. The best workmen in Soho do not reside there. It is more a foreign colony (11900-11908). There are1 not so many block build- ings in Soho as in Stepney (11910). Witness sug- gests certification of places for workshops (11911). The rents are higher than in Stepney (see also 12173- 12176). Witness gives instances (11913-11914), cheifly in Stepney for workshops (11942-11945). The apprenticeship system is dying out in Soho'. Unions object to them (see also 12161-12166), therefore alien labour is necessary, which is genera*^ skilled on arrival. In the provinces also there are no appren- tices., In the Soho district the trad© is passing into the hands of aliens, though rightfully amative trade (11923-11941). In the domestic workshop, which is subject to inspection, a large part of the machining is done (11947-11955). Witness disputes the point that long hours of work, and working seven days per week, and other conditions,, affect the price of the article, price generally being stable (11989-12018). The slipper trade is all done in private rooms (12019). Home work now prevalent will be abolished by in- crease of machinery (12124-12129). In the ladies' Mouse trade, in which Jews are not employed, workers often take work without knowing what they will be paid for it. (N.B.—The "Particulars" clause in the Factory Act was aimed at this (12141- 12153). For powers of entry into workshops, see 12189-12200.) Fersht, Barnett Abraham. Diamond mounter and jeweller in Wardour Street, connected with many Jewish institutions; Founder and Vice-president of the West Central Jewish Glub and Institute, President of the West Central Zionist . Society, and on the committee of the West Central Benevolent Society (20642-20646). A large number of foreigners are in the West Central District of Lon- don, of whom the Jews form 30 to 35 per cent. ; Fersht, Barnett, Abraham—continued. it is a most cosmopolitan population (20647-20649)^ The Russians and Poles are chiefly Jews; not all. aliens (20651-20655). Jews from the East End, as- they improve their position, of ben come westwards ; principally tailors (20656-20658 and 20708-20709). Sweating, if it exists in West Central London, is witk. the shopkeeper; the Jewish working men, tailors, after about 18 months, can earn 7s. 6d. and 8s. a~ day to 10s. 6d. or lis. a day (N.B.—Not machinery or pressers, who work piecework) (20660-20663). Ninety-five per cent, come as tailors (20665-20666). Overcrowding is not serious in West Central Lon- don, which is largely composed of good residences or- business houses (20668-20675). Rents have in- creased 75 per cent, within the last twenty years in the Soho district, in which the foreign poor reside, through the erection of warehouses and workshops* (20676-20682). The foreigners have displaced „ the- native population neither in the East nor West End (20684-20692 and 20717-20722). Gambling goes on in West Central District; and immorality; the action, of the authorities has driven immoral characters from the parish of St. Ann's into the oarish of St. James ; the police should be more active, and they require extended powers (20693-20694 and 20726- 20730). The Jews do not contribute to the vice of the district (20695). A woman should not, if known to be an immoral character, be admitted (20699 and 20731). The Amalgamated Society of Tailors do not regard the Jews as competitors in the trade, because- they follow a trade peculiarly their own (20704- 20705). Jews do not actually work in dwelling-rooms in Central London, but the adoption of certifying:; workshops would be advisable (20706-20707). Finn, Joseph. Arrived here in 1870 from Russian Poland ; worked eight years in United States, six in Leeds ; in 1895- came to London, and was two years secretary of the- Mantle Makers' Union, and in the centre of the foreign labour movement (20257-20262). Classifies- immigrants : (1) Young men who escape military ser- vice ; (2) fathers, to evade fine of 300" roubles conse- quent upon their sons' flight; (3) artisans and small., traders whose action is .restricted at home; (4) political offenders, chiefly those who took part in- new trade union movement; these four classes consti- tute 90 per cent, of the Jewish immigrants ; they are not influenced by Jewish charities (20264-20265). The- adoption, of the passport condition would only benefit the Russian Government, enabling it to close England against political offenders, and Russian officialdom- would impede the honest poor, while rogues and criminals with money could easily come by means, of false passports (20265). In 1886 there was an anti- alien agitation; the Trade Union Congress passed , a resolution at Cardiff for restriction, but this re- solution was cancelled, and ichey have been silent, since on the question (20266-20268). Foreigners take? and give work, and spend their money and savings- in the country (20269-20270). Jews have developed. the ready-made clothing trade, second-class bespoke- trade, the ladies' tailor-made costume and mantle- trade, cap, slipper, cheap shoes, and cigarette trades, and middle-class furniture trade ; in those trades > thousands of English women are employed, and often cut down prices ; Jewish organisation is, how- ever, weak through want of leaders, and in- timacy of workers with masters, and the an- tagonistic interests of the workmen themselves preventing unity of action; the union is strong in- Leeds, because the ready-made and part of the second-class order trade employing foreigners have- developed the factory system proper; the Jews have- assisted England in developing the mantle trade, previously in the hands of Germany and France, by production on a large scale, use of machinery, and division of labour (20271). The Jewish middleman has also played an important part (20272-20273). Boot trade: The foreign Jews chiefly produce cheap * ladies' and children's boots not worn 20 years ago ; the cheapness is due to tfie small profits of the manufacturer, to management, and the method of working; English workmen chiefly produce the heavier men's boots ; natives make the best and the worst, the aliens the medium boots ; the small sweat- ing shops have disappeared since the introductionANALYSIS. 91 ]Finn, Joseph—continued. of machinery; machinery, by reducing labour, has displaced the boot and shoe trade (20275). Witness criticises Amstel's estimate of extent of Jewish pro- duction with the aid of machinery (20276-20279). Clothing trade can be sub-divided into (1) the ready- made ; (2) the second-class order work; (3) the high- class bespoke. The coats of (1) are made mostly in Jewish workshops, where the nours are from eight to eight, with an hour and a half for meals, no work on Saturdays, and on Sundays from eight to six; sub-division of labour is largely adopted; the greater part of the tailoring trade in Leeds is in the hands of English women, the Jews only averaging three to four days a week ; English women have greater advantages in Jewish workshops than they "have in English factories ; owing to sub-division, the 'cost of suits has greatly decreas3d ; shopkeepers sell- ing the ready-made cheap clothes prefer to have a proprietor of a workshop devoted to his interest; then the workshops are small; this trade is essen- tially seasonal; the wages earned in the Leeds cos- tume and mantle trades are very good, also in other trades ; witness protests against charge of sweating in Jewish workshops ; occasional long hours are due to the necessities of the trade ; home work is in the boot-making, and not in the tailoring trade (20280- 20302). JFoot, John. Is Chief Sanitary Inspector to the Borough Council of Bethnal Green (6575). Was asked to give evi- dence by the Mansion House Council on the dwell- ings of the poor, and authorised by his Borough Council to do so; represents an area of 755 acres, with a ratable value of £523,245, the population being 130,000, and the rated premises 17,000; was appointed in 1890 Sanitary Inspector of the then "V estry of Bethnal Green, and in 1896 Chief In- spector of the Public Health Department; only re- gards immigration from a sanitary point of view, especially as regards overcrowding and housing ac- commodation; in the early part of 1890 the Jewish population was confined to a few streets on the southern boundary of the parish, but during the 12 following yeans, has emormouiS'ly increased, especially during the latter period ; a larger num- ber of streets are now more or less occupied by aliens ; one whole street (B or ©bam, Street) and part of Brick Lane has been pulled down and rebuilt, and are entirely occupied by foreigners (200 persons), a© also another area (George Gardens) where the entire British population of about 500 have been displaced, new houses being occupied by for- eigners; the increase also extends through the north-east portion of the borough on into South Hackney, where many hundreds of ad- ditional inhabitants are being housed without . any additional house accommodation being provided ; thus excessive overcrowTding has been engendered ; not necessarily of . Jews, but also of natives displaced from other areas (6576-6578). Thus Jew and Gentile •are herded together under the most unhealthy con- editions, and the efforts of the Public Health autho- rities are largely nullified by the importation of aliens ; rents have also increased to a fancy value, which again have produced overcrowding, and haves resulted in a gambling in house property; Jewish Tiouse dealers buy and sell again at a profit, and tenants of all descriptions find themselves at their mercy; the value of houses is further increased by key-money, and everything is leading to sub-letting -and dividing up of rooms; the existing machinery is totally inadequate to cope with the evil, and the provisions of Section 94 of the Public Health (Lon- don) Act respecting the regulation of houses let in lodgings have been nullified by the decision of Weaitheritt v. Cantlay, excepting in a few instances, probably not one per cent. ; the local authorities have therefore to fall back on the statute itself, and are driven back to the question of nuisance, whereby the inspector has to serve an intimation notice under Section 3 on the person liable to abate the over- crowding ; he has then to wait for a meeting of the -council, to whom he reports, and to order a statutory notice to be served -on tthe person "by whom the 6-144. Foot, John—continued. nuisance is caused. If this statutory notice is dis- regarded, the person liable becomes subject to a penalty under Section 4, Sub-section 4, provided the inspector can prove his case; he has, however, only power of entry by a magistrate's order (6579-6584). The case, North London Collegiate School against the Sanitary Inspector of Stoke Newington, decided that a reasonable cause to inspect a nuisance must be shown before entry, but the necessary delays owing to the procedure render such powers of entry nugatory; the above-mentioned case nullifies the power granted by Section 115 ; the magistrates re- quire that urgent notice shall be shown before entry by force is made; when the entry is made, the in- spector finds all the evils removed by the inhabitants, and practically overcrowding is not abated ; there should be a penalty for each day's overcrowding; a special inspection has, however, proved that there has been exaggeration respecting overcrowding, and that many statements are imaginary (6585-6595). Dr. Shirley Murphy's statements, that the existing machinery has been neglected, and that no further legislation is needed if the present law is enforced are not applicable to Bethnal Green. The sanitary staff has been increased since 1893 from three in- spectors and one clerk to 10 inspectors and three clerks, the witness being the chief (6596-6598). An extract from a report made to the council in 1898 deals with the overcrowding question, showing the lack of housing accommodation, and that, under' the Housing of the Working Classes Act, action was taken, with the result that the occupiers protested, seven of whom were taken to the Police Court and fined, and one was sent to prison (6599-6601), and that, under the Public Health Act (London), pro- ceedings were taken, and people in two streets were evicted, with the result that they were homeless, and distressing scenes occurred. The Oxford House authorities drew attention to their condition, especially of a. family evicted in Canrobert Street, and a family in 33, Woberlt Street; the rents of these houses had increased from 9s. and 9s. 6d. to lis. and lis. 6d., and again to 18s. to 19s. 6d. ; the alien immigration, the lack of accommodation, and the high rents, were bringing matters to a climax; a copy of the report was forwarded to the Local Government Board, and to' the London County Council (6602-6605). 102 cases are also being dealt with; proceedings will be taken and people will be evicted to crowd again in some miserable hovel; Dr. Bate, the Medical Officer of Health, has also reported re- . specting the overcrowding of houses let in lodgings, and the action under the new bye-laws for Bethnal Green; after alluding to the insufficiency of the Public Health Act to deal with tenement houses., he refers to* the decision in the case of Weatheritt. v. Cantlay, which has stultified the appointment of a special officer; Dr. Bate having served for 30 years speaks with authority (6606-6613). (N.B.—Judgment in this case given in 6613). The special constable appointed, could only register 20 houseis out of 800, as expected' in view of the judgment, Weatheritt v. Cantlay (6756-6757). The question of immigration commenced at Bethnal Green in: 1890; since it has rapidly increased (6615-6618). There is ,no finality about the question, so long as the inflow continues; house accommodation does not increase in spite of the substitution of model dwellings for smaller houses, because industrial buildings, factories and warehouses occupy large sites (6619-6620). There are no statis- tics showing the increase or decrease of individual rooms, but the result represents a loss (6621-6626). Many aliens arrive in a. very squalid condition, but the younger generation greatly improve, the older one>s, who largely deal in fruit, remain dirty (6627- 6629). Rents increase wherever Jews purchase houses, and in proportion to the number of times houses changje handsi; these are chiefly four and six- roomed houses (6630-6633) rented at £50' a year; it is difficult to' ascertain the actual rents paid, because they are declared to be low to evade high assessments; Dr. Thomas' statement respecting two books is correct (6635-6637). This gambling in house property is not confined to the Jews (663&-6641). High rents tend to overcrowding, because the demand exceeds the supply (6645). Many trades suffer ]>y the driving out policy, e.g., costermongers must live near Spitalfields, cabinet-makers near Curtain Road, dock labourers N92 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis. Foot, John—continued. - ~~ near the docks, tailors and bookmakers near the City; this policy inflicts hardship on aliens and natives (6646-6649 and 6797). Something might be done by better transit accommodation (6798). Many coster- mongjers and cabinet-makers, to an increasing extent, are aliens, and livei in the southern portion of th© parish, having supplanted the natives* (6650-6654). The driving out policy causes great discontent amongst natives, and H. S. Lewis's remarks in " The Jew in London," with reference to the overcrowding, its causes and effects, are in accordance with facts, and also his statement that the increase of foreigners to the south of the Great Eastern Railway is great (6655-6664). Through immigration hardship is in- , flicted upon the English tradesmen (6665-6666). The demand for key-money appears to be much less, pos- sibly due to the present inquiry, and 'also to the action of the Assessment Committee, which, in valu- ing the house, considered key-money; key-money is a mere premium, or bribe, including no improvement to the house; the agent probably on behalf of the landlord, not the outgoing tenant, receives it ; the payment to the tenant to clear out' of a house is plus key-money (6667-6682). The tenancies are generally weekly, but the process of eviction occupies four to seven weeks (6684-6686). The existing machinery is a dishousing one, and does not provide accommoda- tion; an enforcement of the tenement house regula- tions and the Public Health Act, however reformed, would lead to the eviction of thousands to reduce overcrowding to a normal extent; extra, accommoda- tion for 7,000 to 8,000 people would be required, but considering the constant inflow, finality is an impos- sibility ; with this provided, tenement house regula- tions might be worked successfully; the present action simply results in keeping people moving (6687-6692). Outlying districts are becoming, in parts., as crowded as East End parishes (6603). Train accommodation is insufficient, as was shown by an inquiry held respect- ing a fire in 1898 in an overcrowded house in Dixie Street, causing seven or eight deaths; this evil is much more acute now (6694-6695). Legal standard of 300 cubic feet' for sleeping, as laid down by the old Common Lodging-house Acts and now brought m the bye-laws from a health point of view, is inade- quate; a room 12 by 12 by 10, representing 1,440 cubic feet, would legally accommodate five' adults (6696-6702). The London County Council press the local authorites to use the Tenement House Regulations, but these do not supply housing accommodation; the alien can pay a higher rent than the native, because his standard of living is lower, and hours much longer, and he pays one rent, living and working in the same room or rooms (6759). The trade union leaders tried to raise an agitation to separate the workshop from the home a few years ago, but without success, so one rent still covers the workshop and living room (6760). One union leader describes the immigration as a per- fect " blight," destroying all organisation (6761). The alien question is a branch of the housing question, and if aliens are still to come, houses must be built for them, from a purely sanitary point of view, but if they 'are driven from Bethnal Green they will over- crowd in other parts (6762-6767). The statement in the Census of 1901, that there are 580 empty houses in Bethnal Green is # incorrect, as there is not an empty house or room in the district (6768-6775). The facts that' total increase in the population in 10 years is 751, and that 7,000 to 8,000 are overcrowded in Bethnal Green, show that overcrowding existed pre- viously, and that aliens have only intensified it (6776- 6780). The additional overcrowding now is also due to there being less house accommodation, due to the building of factories, etc. (6781-6783). The County Council rents are too high for the district, e.g*, - Boundary Street Estate about 3s. per room, but the Jew landlord had fixed it before the County Council; the County Council have to fix theirs at a higher fio-ure to enable them to pay back the loan on the land in the 60 statutory years. N.B.—There should be a longer period for repayment (6788-6791). People occupying a Boundary Street improvement area are doctors, railway men, policemen, and largely aliens; the buildings are nearly full, and of superior class; the aliens do not appear less healthy than our people (6800-6801). The second bye-law, which states that " a bye-law shall not apply to a lodging-house if, and w long as, the vestry deem it unnecessary to register such lodging-house/'' caused a dispute with the Lon- Foot, John—continued. don County Council. Driving people about and prose- cuting them provide no effectual remedy, and deter- mined tenement house regulations cannot be applied, owing to the judgment in Weatheritt v. Cantley (6828- 6832). Houses cannot be put on the register unless- inspected, and the judgment prevents, inspection ; it does not follow that if a londlord lives in a thousei 'and lets five rooms out of thei six to five different families that the house can be registered, nor that the regu- lationis apply to amy r'oom, unless, more, than one family live in it, according to> counse-l'-s opinion. It should be an offence to overcrowd, and the- penalty should follow; it follows now under the bye-laws after the notice has been served; when the 'inspector has served intimation notice, and has re- ported to his authority that the notice is served, during this procedure the conditions may have changed; those who have overcrowded have gone into another house in overcrowded district, and have to- be followed up, and the whole procedure has to* be done over again (6854). The old bye-laws were used largely where twoi families or more used common' closets and common staircases and passages for cleans- ing purposes; the Tenement House Regulations should be enforced, but they are not a substitute for an active housing policy; there used to be a terrible overcrowd- ing, but in certain parts—now it is general; the lack of finality is the great difficulty in the struggle against overcrowding; a, law effectively administered in one district will not remove the evil unless it be effective throughout the whole of London, otherwise the en- forcement of the law would mean simply transferring; the evil (6863-6867). Removal of factories would imply removal of workers also, but aliens would come to-morrow and take their place, and to live on the sites of the factories removed; now aliens who are largely employed and natives must live in Bethnal Green to be near their work (6868-6876). Two1 pro- ceedings were taken between 1898 (when the bye-laws were first enforced) and 1900; they were against other than members of the family, but witness hais prose- cuted members of one family, and is doing so now un- der the Public Health Act (6877-6881) ; having pro- ceeded against a large number since the passing of the Local Government Act. About 100 inspections are made a w!eek, followed by about 50 statutory notices ; in 1890 102 were dealt with, of which very few were proceeded against before magistrates for overcrowding, be/cause the inhabitants moved from one house to another; the: magistrates are opposed to granting a recurring order (to prevent a recurrence), they think the local authorities may use them oppressively; very few of these were under the bye-laws, which were only used after the Board was elected; many were regis- tered, and notices were served daily calling on owners to supply particulars for registration, but these were refused (Weatheritt v. Cantley) (6882-6887). Even if all difficulties caused by this decision were' removed (n.b., there is no rent limit), overcrowding would be driven about, and magistrates would ask, " Where are the people to go?" (6689-6692). Possibly the diffi- culties are acute' through the displacement caused by the closing of the Boundary Street area (6893). If the law were enforced high rents might still be paid, be- cause one rent covers dwelling-room and workshop (6894-6899). The George Garden's scheme was not one by the County Council, but Davis Bros, leased the four acres, and by pulling down dishoused 500 persons with- out any interference on the part of the authorities (6900-6901). From 1891-1901 the decrease in houses, in Bethnal Green was 2,374, namely, from 16,374 to 14,000 ; the population, however, has remained practi- cally stationary in spite of the alien immigration ; the decrease in houses is therefore the cause of over- crowding, and the remedy must be found in a sub- stituted place of habitation (6902-6908). (N.B.—The decrease of 2,374 does not represent the corresponding decrease in the actual accommodation, as large build- ings have been substituted for small houses on the same sites (6953-6962)). Again, in Whitechapel the- decrease of houses is 1,577, from 7,277 in 1891 to 5,700 in 1901 ; the population has increased 4,000 (6909- 6910). In Stepney the decrease of houses is 148, from 7,122 in 1891 to 6,974 in 1901; population has re- mained ; therefore prima facie the overcrowding is less in Stepney than in Bethnal Green, though the alien immigration has been much greater (6911-6913). In Holborn, St. Pancras, Shoreditch, Mile End, Poplar the number of houses has decreased, But inANALYSIS. 93 Toot, John—continued. districts such as Wandsworth, Greenwich, Woolwich, Lewisham, and Fulham the population and number of houses are both greatly increasing; this shows that there has been a great draining from the Central and East End districts to the more outlying districts (6914-6915). The diminution of houses in Bethnal Green is due to the erection of trade premises, increase of factories, and buildings by the School Board autho- rities, and that freehold land near the City is becom- ing more valuable; these, economic conditions have nothing to do with alien immigration; substituted accommodation with due respect, as far as possible, to their habits and wishes, is therefore the great remedy (6917-6926). If people are driven out into sheds, as described by witness, sanitation in a house, which means that it should not be overcrowded, cannot be properly supervised ; bye-laws and powers may miti- gate the evil, but proper remedies must be given to the authorities (6927-6930). There should be absolute power of entry to lodging-houses,_ when once registered, and a penalty .should lie against the» day of overcrowding, even though the nuisance foe removed ; the lengthened procedure of re- porting to (the authority, then (serving a notice, >and then prosecuting, should not be necessary; it should be a penalty to take a greater number of persons into the house than the number it is regis- tered for (6952-6934). Every local authority should also be enabled to provide a temporary shelter for those forced to leave their houses, and, if necessary, to feed and clothe them, as is done in the case of infectious disease ; machinery should be provided to prevent the people hanging on; there would, how- ever, be difficulty in the case of an. alien unable to speak English (6939-6941). The local authority should be the housing authority as well as the London County Council, and the period of repayment of loans of the County Council (now 60 years) should be extended; this would lower the rents; the bye-laws should be more effective, as, beyond entering and inspecting lodging-houses, they give no more1 powers than the statute law ; an alien might crowd his house with his own family; local authorities should have compulsory powers of purchase outside the district, with the right of going to* an arbitrator, as under the: Land Clauses Act; in Bethnal Green there is no. vacant land (6942- 6952). The authorities, have no wish not to enforce the law, but, after all, enforcement is futile, as the policy they adopt is only a dishousing one (6963-6969). The sanitary authority in Bethnal Green wish it to be understood that they do not protest in any spirit of anti-alienism, but simply from a sanitary point of Freedman, Sam, Secretary to the Leeds Jewish Tailors, Machinists, and Pressers' Trade Union, which is an almost exclu- sively Jewish Union (20366-20367). Aliens are em- ployed in the wholesale clothing trade in Leeds partly because of their general habits and ability, and partly because of the use of machinery and sub-division of labour, which are strongly objected to by natives ; Leeds is now the centre of the wholesale clothing line; aliens are employed in the coat-making branch, and to a certain extent the waistcoat-making branch, but not in the trousers and juvenile branches; they earn above the standard of the native tailors' trade union wage; the number of aliens in the trade is from 1,600 to 1,700, out of which 1,300 are members of the Union; the Jews do not avoid trade unions; with the exception of the criminals and the aged, aliens are most desirable in the country (20367-20372). The Jews in Leeds are highly organised with a strong trade union, and their conditions are better than in London (20376-20379). Witness disputes Mr. Lewis Lyon's statement as to the average wage in London being less than 23s. (20380-20382). The Jews have compulsory additional weekly charges not incurred by the natives, e.g., on education, trades, their syna- gogues, the price of meat, etc. (20384-20394). With regard to wages, the conditions in the East End of London are not worse than those in Leeds, but the hours may) be more excessive (20404-20406). The Union protects the greeners in Leeds who come direct, "being attracted by the clothing trade (20414-20422). Many women, Jewish and English, are employed in workshops (20423-20427). Witness would exclude all criminals, the aged, and those suffering from infectious 6144. Freedman, $aw~continuoad, and the tradesmen, complain that it is in consequence of the constant upheaval of the roads, this being the reason they gave to the 'Stepney Borough Council. The small Christian shopkeeper has suffered greatly. It is untrue to >say that the Rabbis order the Jews to deal only with, their own people, and the reason they do so is an economic one. The Christian shopkeeper should accommodate 'him- self to the requirements of the alien®; it would pay him to do so (17609-17610 and^ 17760-17764). The aloofness of the Jews is only noticeable at first when they are ignorant of the language, but afterwards they take an interest in everything (17611-17612). Aliens are very keen in becoming naturalised, which costs from £7 to £7 10s., and if the fees were lowered a much larger number1 would do so (17613-17618). Printing placards, etc., in Yiddish is very detrimental to the attempt being made to Anglicise the alien im- migrant, a large amount being published by the Step- ney Borough Council, and by missionaries (17619- 17628). Explains the arrangements for the census. Aliens not responsible! for overcrowding, the causes being anterior to their advent (17629-17630). It may be said that in 1881 London! had reached the point when it was as full as it could be, andl any increase after that date was bound to lead to overcrowding. The growth of London during the last 20 years has been retardedby the excess of migration from iti (17631- jl7642). In 1801 Stepney had a population of 113,000, and Islington had one of 10,000 ; in 1881 they were equal, and in 1901 the figures were, Islington 335,000, Stepney 298,000. Witness thinks that these figures show that alien immigration was not one of the real causes of overcrowding, as Stepney was " full up " long before London, as a whole, and years before the alien began to arrive. So far back as 1850 the popu- lation of Stepney was 230,000, and from about that date Stepney people have been forced out because there is no room (17643-17665). When, using the word " Stepney " witness uses it to define the five Parlia- mentary constituencies now incorporated in the Borough of Stepney (17667). The number of persons per inhabited house began to rise in. 1841, remained at .a dead level from 1851 to 1881, and has been rising very rapidly since; this latter period being coter- minous with the alien immigration ; but witness does not think this is proof of cause and effect (17668- 17673). Ini Mile End Old Town there has been a slight decrease in the number of houses since 1881, but this has been compensated for by the erection of dwellings which are only counted as one house (17677- 17679, see also 17670 and 17705-17712). In White - chapel the decrease has been continuous since 1851, and in the Stepney Registration district since 1881. Witness desires by these figures to prove that over- crowding was bound to take place whether aliens came or did not come (17679-17680). The City is overflow- ing into Stepney, .and limiting the residential areas, and the same movement is affecting all the boroughs adjoining the City, with the same result—in South- wark, Holbom, Finsbury, and in Shoreditch (17681). Gordon, Henry Herman—continued. Witness produces map showing to what extent busi- ness premises have encroached on residential areas, from 1873 to 1902 (17682-17696). Between 1881 and 1889 450 dilapidated houses, which accommodated. 3,750 people, were pulled down, and .a block of Pea- body Buildings erected on the site, but they only rehoused 2,559, of which number very few were original tenants (17698-17704 and 17713-17722). The- erection of dwellings has improved the sanitary con- dition, and improved the moral tone of the district,, but has done little or nothing to solve the problem of. overcrowding. The decline of the numbers of foreign, born Jewish children attending the Jewish voluntary schools from 30*70 per cent, in 1894 to 21:40 per cent, in 1901, seems to show that the increase of Jews is> largely due to natural causes. Witness thinks that the dispersal of Christian population is due chiefly to the following causes : (1) Decay of former industries,, and decline of work at the docks and on the river ; (2), conversion of residential into industrial areas; (3) sanitary clearances and street improvements ; (4) in- creased .attraction of life away from the City owing to improved facilities of transit (17723). These causes do not disperse the alien, because he is able to pay higher rent (17734), and thus keep the district resi- dential (17737-17738), and is not engaged in the same^ industries .as the natives. Stepney must become, by reason of its position, an industrial centre. During 1902 2,600 persons were dishoused, due to building operations, and only 1,500 rehoused owing to factories being built all over the district, and this, dis- persion will be more marked in the future (17724- 17726). Local authorities have enough powers at their disposal to deal with overcrowding, which is very- prevalent amongst alien immigrants. It is mistaken kindness for magistrates to refuse an order to abate overcrowding on the grounds that the inhabitants can- not find accommodation, and if the law were enforced it would discourage aliens from coming to the East End, and rents might be reduced, although .aliens would still be able to pay high rents, because of their abstinence from alcohol. Doubts the feasibility of restrictive legislation based on a monetary test, but would exclude criminals (17727). Apart from the fatigues, of travel, witness had not noticed any appear- ance of ill-health (17741-17749). Require more sani- tary inspectors in Stepney (17767-17771). Describes how the Jews' Free Shelter deals with aliens on arrival in this country (17777-17797). Jewish com- munity might do something to solve the overcrowding problem! (17798). 28,000 people passed through the- Jewish. Shelter in 1902, of whom 8,000 were non-Jews (17803-17806). Note.—This witness's evidence is referred to in the> Report (sea paragraphs 150 to 152). Geeenberg, L. J. Publisher and founder of the " Jewish Year Book." The more immediate cause for the emigration1 of Jews from Eastern Europe, and the complaints arising therefrom, may be economic; but both cases, are directly traceable to religious causes, so. that any re- striction on the immigration of Jews from Eastern Europe must add to the persecution of Jews, on .account of their religious faith. Since Poland be- came part of the Russian Empire there has been a: migration of Polish Jews to countries where they could enjoy religious freedom. Other aliens mere with; the population and become natives, the Jew retains his individuality (17090). Any restriction on the part of England will be held by countries like' Russia and Ro-umania as a justification of their attitude towards the Jews. No noticeable migration took place till 1881, when the " May Laws!" so restricted the areas in which they might live, the callings they might follow, .as practically to form a notice to quit. Eng- land's geographical position, and the fact that she is the heart and centre of the world's carrying trade, have made her a half-way house for the Russian emigrant to America, the small number of emigrants from this country who are returned from the United States. Between 1888 and 1900 917,800 foreigners left this country for America, and only 1,258 were returned. This disposes of the assertion that this; country is made a human rubbish head; of rejected aliens (17097). So far as the immigra- tion] from Eastern Europe is composed of Jews, these do not remain aliens, except artificially ; they are de- termined to bind, up bheir future with the country of their adoption, and so far as their political allegiance is concerned they are English. If the law as to naturalisation were made easier they would become naturalised, and' it would be to the interest of the Government to allow them to do so as speedily as possible (pee also 17361-17366). It would be a great loss to England to exclude those who .are likely to be- successful in trade. The immigration from Eastern Europe has gained for this country an export trade m clothing in place of an import trade, besides a mantle industry and branches of others which are valuable (17105). As to tihe complaint against those who are able to pay a higher rent, and who, it is alleged, have so ousted natives. (see also 17229) ; it is alleged that this capacity to pay higher rents has been attained by unfair overcrowding. But the returns throughout London show that everywhere, with the exception of Stepney, overcrowdingi has diminished. The Jews, of all people in the world, love comfort, and, make great efforts to attain it {see also 17899). The Jews are able to pay higher rents than others, even while earning the same wag|es, because they save the money others expend on drink. Their presence has enhanced the value of property, and'' streets like Ships; Alley, Cable Street, Great Pearl Street, have been transformed from places of vileiliesis by the Jews (17108). One of the chief complaints made against the alien immi- grant is that, to a very large extent, he is physically unfit; but this physical unfitness on the part of the Jew is on the surface only. M. Lewy Beaulieu, in) his book, " Israel among Nations," puts this point very clearly when he says : " In America, for instance, the Jews are regarded by the life insurance companies as especially desirable clients" (17114). Asf to re- strictions, the following: objections to legislative restriction of alien immigration may be submitted (see also 17460-17476): — I.—If effectual so ias! seriously to diminish the numbers arriving for isettlement: « (a) It would, exclude a valuable addition to the country (see also 17105). (b) It would drive valuable industries out of this country. (c) It would not restrict emigration, as immi- grants are rarely engaged in manual labour. (d) It is in a, few districts only that the alien immigration is actually felt by the native population. (e) It would be a reversal of the commercial policy of this country to restrain free com- petition. (f) It would wreak a real hardship on ship- owners. II.—If directed only against so-called undesir- ables : (a) It would not diminish the cause of complaint. (b) It would feed the desire of those who wish to see capables excluded. (c) It would inevitably exclude many desirables. (d) It would wreak great hardship upon those who upon arriving here would be excluded as undesirables. III.—Any restrictive legislation : (a) It would be extremely difficult to carry into effect. (b) Would be a permanent advertisement of the desirability of this country as a place for emigration. . Gkeenberg, L. J.—continued. (c) It would tend to create anti-Semitism in this country. (d) It would inevitably add to the religious per- secution of Jews in other countries. (e) It would make England appear as condoning the treatment accorded to Jews by Bussia and Boumania. England would be better employed if she turned to the real cause of immigration, and used her power to secure for Jews equal rights in the countries in which they live. If that could be effected, not many would leave their homes. The solution of the ques- tion is to be found in raising the status of the Jew as Jew (17127-17129). As to the number of immigrants who come, it is a question of supply and demand ; when Stepney is less attractive than the ghettos in Bussia, the immigration will cease. Till the economic end is reached all foreigners, whether Christians or others, ought to be allowed to come in (17136-17163). With reference to the overcrowding, it is a matter that should be remedied entirely by legislation; the pre- sent law, if drastically enforced, would probably be sufficient (17188-17190^. Great increase in Jewish immigration does not seem likely, but it depends ab- solutely on the Governments of Bussia and Boumania. If America were to close her doors they would not leave their own country (17202-17208). If there is a. complaint against aliens, and immigration could be stopped, obviously the complaint would be cured; but immigration could not be stopped by restrictive measures. It is partly the attraction of America and partly expulsive force from Bussia that causes immi- gration, but if the attractive force of America were to cease, they would probably put up with Russian con- ditions, as it is only a few out of the millions leave (17214-17223). Hamer, Dr. William Heaton. Assistant Medical Officer of Health of the London County Council over 10 years (17963-17964). In 1892i inspected about 100 worshops occupied by foreign im- migrants, mainly tailors, bootmakers and capmakers, in Whitechapeil and Mile End Old Town, and found them much overcrowded; in 1893 inspected some in Soho, which were less overcrowded ; in May, 1895, found great' improvement in the East End workshops : in 1894, being instructed to report on the -sanitary con- dition and administration of Whitechapei and Mile End Old Town, inspected 497 houses and 154 separate tenements in the former, and 507 houses in the latter district; found marked improvement in the West Ward of Mile End Old Town, due to active admini- stration and to the willingness of the Jewish popu- lation. The staff of inspectors was, however, in- adequate, and the bye-laws were not being, enforced ; especially so in Wiiitechapel. The London County Council decided at the end of 1894 to inspect more tborughly milk shops, with most satisfactory re&uilts, foreign milkshops becoming equally sanitary with English ones (18048-18055). An inquiry in 1896 re- vealed the fact while the bye-laws with regaird to cleansing had proved most useful, those1 with regard to overcrowding in Stepney had not been applied in other districtsi it was shown that houses especially needing regulation occurred in' groups, the property of a small number of owners. When comparing these with Stepney itl was found that the overcrowding in the East Enid was much less than in Lambeth, St. Pancras, and Kensington (17965-17972). (For remarks on fairness of comparison, see 18023-18032 and 18100- 18109.) The houses there inspected were working- class houses, with very few exceptions (17974-17975). N.B.—The inspection ranged over five years. Ac- cording to the Jewish Board of Deputies' report the percentage of foreigners in Lambeth was 1*16, in Kensington 2*64, St. Pancras 3*46, Stepney 18*18 per cent. (17993). Mile End and Whitechapei con- tained the most overcrowding (17994). The standard adopted by the' Census of more than two to a room gives much larger overcrowding than the cubic capacity of the bye-laws in a district ; e.g., in St. Pancras, 80,000 (17996-18001). Generally in London common lodging-houses (registered under the Com- mon Lodging Act, 17970) are much better regu- lated than houses let in lodgings ; but this is due to the non-application of the bye-laws ; apply96 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis. Hamer, Dr. William Heaton—continued. .—" them and there is. no reason why the result should not be the same (18002). Nothing is now being done in respect to block buildings, owing to " Weatheritt v. Cantlay "; each block should be deemed a house, and each tenement a, lodging (18008-18009). Night inspection is provided by the Common Lodging House bye-laws, and should be under the bye-laws of the Council {18010-18015). Where bye-laws have been used, they have been most useful ; because they define overcrowding, and give a more direct penal power of prosecution (18016-18022). Witness* has found most overcrowding in districts in which there was not a large foreign element; e.g., Lambeth, Kensington, Notting Hill (18033-18034). The adequacy of a staff of inspectors varies in each district (18043-18047). The density of population per acre in the East End is not much greater than Southwark, except Spital- fields (18076 18078). The houses reported upon having been inspected by day, witness had to rely upon the statements of the people for the night popu- lation (18083-18089). Taking the houses visited, the conclusion is that natives are greater offenders in 'the matter of overcrowding than foreigners, and that foreigners are more, susceptible to discipline' (18112- 18121). Possibly the Great Central Railway may have accounted for some of the overcrowding in St. Pancras (18124-18134). Witness handed in a list of streets in Whitechapel and Mile End Old Town in which he conducted his inquiry. Harper, Edgar, Chief Statistical Officer of the London County Council. Has been for 25 years, in the service of the London County Council, and hasi considerable know- ledgei of the district of Stepney aind Bethnal Green (10898). The influx of aliens hasi not aff ected all parts of these two boroughs to the same extent. In Stepney the difficulty is more intense- in the western end, and in Bethnal Green is practically confined to the 'south- west corner, and is in the nature of an overflow from Whitechapel and Spitalfields (10904). Witness pre- sents tables, showing for each. registration district in the Census years 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891, and 1901, (a) the total population, (b) the number bom in foreign countries and thie number of British subjects (10905, see also Tables XXXY., XXXY.(a), and XXXV. (b) ). (N.B.—The Tables described in the Minutes of Evidence by witness as la, lb, 1c, Id, are headed as XXXY., XXXY.(a), XXXY.(b), and XXXYII. respectively ; as in the Appendix, pagies 42 and 43). Following the growth of the foreign population since 1861, it will be seen that the increase is slight until 1881, and that it has, been greatly accelerated in the last two decennial periods. Almost concur- rently the British-born population has decreased. In the two boroughs together during the decade 1891- 1901, it appears that the foreign-born population in- creased. 72*94 per cent., the British-born population decreased 2-65 per cent., the totad population in- creased 3*58 per cent. ; the number of inhabited housetsi decreased 8*95 per cent., or from 49,824 to 45,367. Too much stress must not, however, be laid on this latter figure, as, according to the Census com- putation, each block of dwellings would be reckoned as one house. Witness also explains that in the figures of these' tables only those of foreign birth are counted as aliens, thei children of aliens', if born in this country, being enumerated' as British. To give an estimate which will include children born in England of alien parents, he has taken the figures of 1881, and has applied to them, the' average rate of increase for the whole of London for each registration district (see Q. 11482), of births over deaths for 20 years to 1901. He has then taken the difference that the aliens were greater by1 at least 15-8 per cent, than' shown in the Census returns between the' 1881 Census figures and the 1891 Census figures, and has aplied the same . rate to that difference for the last 10 years., and, add- ing; the two together, he has obtained the result (10027-10947, see Appendix Table XXXV.(c). The ' results of this estimate (Appendix, Table XXXV.(c) does not correspond with that of the Registrar- General, who stated that his test,, by means of which he included children born in the country, showed a difference of 50 per cent, in the small sub-disitrict (St. George's North) (see 565-568) (10949-10959). Witness deals with the movement of the population from Step- ney and Bethnal Green. The net movement of the Harper, Edgar—continued. whole population, for Stepney during the period 1891 to 1901 was 31,381. This figure is thus obtained : — Stepney. Excess of births over deaths - 44,571 Increase shown by the Census in total population - 13,190 Net outward movement 31,381 Bethnal Green. Excess of births over deaths - 18,600 Increase shown, by the Census in total population - 600 Net outward movement 18,000 Thus, as the actual increase of population doeis- not amount to as much as half the excess of births over deaths, there must be: a large exodus from these dis- tricts.. But the Census returns show that the-number of aliens has increased in this period by 22,026 and 2,838 respectively. Thus it is safe to infer that the alien immigration, for the most part-, presses out the purely. British population. The gross amount of migration must have been much greater1 than shown by the figures. The British population in Stepney, excluding the estimated children of foreign parents, in 1891 amounts to 249,295, in 1901 to 235,431. Those figures show a much greater reduction (viz., 13,864) in the British population than the Census figures show. Witness compares the. decrease: of 13,864 with the natural increase', 38,847, so. that the total emigration of the British population from Stepney would be 38,347 plus 13,864, which represents decrease in the British population (10960-10962, see also Table XXXVII. in the Minutes of Evidence, p. 362). The fact that in spite of the natural increase in Bethnal Green of 18,368, the total population shows a. decrease of 2,569, which, added to the; natural increase of British population, viz., 18,368, shows, a, total emigra- tion of 20,937, is due to clearances of residential pro- perty for business purposes. This is also applicable, but to a less extent, to Stepney (10970-10982, see also Table XXXVII. in the Minutes of Evidence, p. 362). Wit- ness presents tables setting forth in 26 streets in Spitalfields, Mile End New Town, and Whitechapel the number of houses, visited, the number of rooms contained therein, and whether the landlords, and tenants are British or alien; the number of houses which have changed ownership since! 1896, those in which rents1 have not been raised, and those) in which they have been raised since 1890 (see Table XXXVIII., Appendix, p. 44). These- tables, show that, out of 186 houses rents have been raised since 1890 in 121 cases, or 65 per cent., the average increase being 7Jd. per room per week. In Mile End Old Town, out of 145 houses rents have been raised in 107 cases., or 74 per cent., the average increase being lid. per room, and in at least 45 cases the rents have, been raised more than once, (10988, and Table XXXIX., Appendix, p. 46). In the south-west corner of Bethnal Green, out of 67 houses visited rents have been raised since 1890 in 50 oases, or 75 per cent., the average increase being 5Jd. per room per week, and in at least four cases the rents have been increased more ■than once since 1890. The increase! of rent is out. of all proportion to the money expended for improve- ments on the houses (10988-10990, and Table XL. in Appendix, p. 47). In St. George-iii-the-East, out of 210 houses visited rents have been raised since 1890 in 207 cases, or 98*6 per cent., the average increase being Is. 4d. per room per week, and in at least 118 cases the rents have been raised more than once since 1890 (10991, and Table XLL in Appendix, p. 48). In no. other1 part of London have they been so largely raised (10983-10987, and Table XXXVIII. in Appen- dix). Witness further produces tables showing the proportion of the increase in rents previously paid in certain streets in the. parishes of Christ church, Spital- fields, Whitechapel, and Mile End New Town, where the average increase per week per room has been Is. or more. In 17 houses containing 78 rooms the total rents on the last day in which there has been a, record have increased from £13 10s. 9d. to £18 15s. 10d., showing an increase of 38*81 per cent., averaging Is. 4Jd. per room per week during four or five years.ANALYSIS. 97 Harper, Edgar—continued. These figures are the result of house-to-house inquiries (11502-11516, and Table XLIL, Appendix, p. 49). Similar tables for Mile End Old Town show that in 42 houses containing 194 rooms the rents have in- creased from £18 9s. per week to £33 Is., showing an increase of 79*14 per cent., averaging Is. 6d. per room per week. In Clark Street, a, very good street, the increase is 163,64 per cent. (11517, and Table XLIII., Appendix, p. 49). Similarly, in three houses in Brick Lane, Bethnal Green, with a total of 16 rooms, the rents have increased from £2 6s. to £3 15s., showing an increase of 63 per cent., averaging Is. 9fd. per room per week (11523, and Table XLIV., Appendix, p. 49); and in 115 houses containing 616 rooms the rents have increased from £73 '8s. 7d. to £127 6s. 7d., showing an increase of 73-40 per cent., averaging Is. 8|d. per1 week per room (11523, and Table XLV., Appendix, p. 49). In one street in St. George-in-the- East, Christian Street, the average increase, is 2s. 4Jd. per room per week (11524). A further table sum- marises the result of an inquiry in the borough of Stepney. Out of 608 houses there are 484 cases (or 79-6 per cent.) in which the rents have been raised. Of these houses 231 were owned by British landlords, . the rents in 153 cases (or 66-24 per cent.) showing an increase; 374 belonged to aliens, the rents in 329 cases- (or 87-97 per cent.) showing an increase. The nationalities of the owners of the remaining three houseis are unknown. Of these 608 houses, 206 were occupied by British, 155 (or 75-24 per cent.) of whom had their rents raised; and 402 were occupied by aliens, 329 (or 81-85 per cent.) of whom had their rents raised. It may therefore he inferred that alien land- loids show a greater tendency to increase rents, especially to alien tenants (11525, and Table XLVL, Appendix, p. 50). Instances of rent-raising have also been found in Poplar, Bow, and Bromley, probably partly due to expansion of alien population (11581, 11591-11599). Albert Square is an instance of how the influx of foreigners inflates house value. A Mr. Cohen bought the property, and at the rear of each of the houses built a workshop, increasing the rent- from £35 per annum to £65, in one case to £70, and in another to £75. He was thus enabled to increase the value of the Central Garden, with the result, that he secured from the County Council £10,560, and realised a profit of over 100 per cent , on his investment . Wit- ness thinks that building in the hack areas is the cause of slums. The law now requires an open space' in the rear of at least 150 square feet, but this only applies to newly erected houses (11525-11535). Witness pro- duces tables respecting key money, which he describes as " a premium in addition to- the rent ." It is paid much more frequently to outgoing tenants: than to landlords, and points to the. probability of British tenants being bought out by aliens. In 261 cases out of a total of 347 key money was paid to outgoing tenants, and in 86 cases to landlord, the total amount being £3,757. The aliens who have paid are largely in excess of the British, viz., 317 to 30. The total amount- paid by the British was £215, by the aliens £3,542. In some cases the amount is large, up to £20 (11537-11560, and Tables XLVIL and XLYIII., Ap- pendix, p. 51). The great demand for house accom- modation caused by alien immigration, and by the clearances for offices-, warehouses, etc., has increased rents and occasioned sub-letting, with consequent overcrowding to a most serious extent. (N.B.—Wit- ness adopts the Home Office definition of overcrowd- ing, i.e., more than two in a room.) In Spitalfields (No. 11 Enumeration District) the overcrowding reaches 85i per cent, of the total population. Over- crowding without doubt is worse in alien quarters in Stepney than elsewhere in London. Stepney is the onlv metropolitan borough' where not only has the number of persons overcrowded increased during the last. 10 years, but the percentage of persons, over- crowded to the total population of the borough has also increased (11562-11567). Witness shows in°Table LI. (Appendix, p. 57) in how many enumerated dis- tricts in each Registration Sub-District of Stepney the- overcrowding exceeds. 50 per cent.; in how many it exceeds 30, but not 50'; also the lowest and highest percentage in each sub-district. The table shows that the worst; overcrowding is in Spitalfields, St. Geor ge-in-the -E'ast, then Mile End New Town, Goodman's Fields, and ' then Mile End Old Town. In the whole' borough of Stepney 47 Harper, Edgar—continued. Analysis. enumeration districts exceed 50 per cent, of over- crowding, and 68 exceed 30 per cent , but not, 50 per cent, per week (11568-11571, 11586-11590, and Table LI., Appendix, p. 57). Though Stepney is the only district in which overcrowding is increasing, the actual percentage of overcrowding; in St. Pancras is very nearly as bad, but the latter district is improving (11572-11573). (N.B.—Table LI. also* deals similarly with Bethnal Green.) Witness produces tables deal- ing with locomotion facilities, showing that since 1894 there is accommodation to bring about, 25,000 to the City. He thinks that if rent and fare together out- side are less than rent inside, this will induce people to move outwards (11574-11575, 11583-11585, 11600-11603, and Table LII., Appendix, pp. 58 and 59, and Table LIIL, Appendix, page 60). Witness has summarised the separate' items of facts presented, showing how far the evils of overcrowding, rent- raising, and key money are coincident with the con- siderable increase of alien immigration (11576, and Table LIV., Appendix, page 61). It is noticeable that the increase in rents in Whitechapel show a small average as compared with St. George-in-the-East; this is probably due to the fact that the process com- menced earlier in Whitechapel, and proves that as the alien population spreads the evils of high rents spread with it (11576-11577). Though rents have increased in such district,s as Olerkenwell, Hoxton, Leather Lane, and Hat,ton Garden, they have done so during the last 10 years to a much less extent than in Stepney (11580). When an area is cleared and a large number of people turned out, a good plan to adopt is to set up an office on the estate and keep there a, register of all the vacant houses, and rooms within half a mile radius, so that when pressure is brought to bear on the tenant and he realises1 that he must go he can be helped to find accommodation. Many of these people do not know how to help themselves, but ir such means are adopted it is surprising how quickly they aie absorbed. This has been tried in connection with the Boundary Street improvement (11605-11609, 11614). When clearing an area for rebuilding, the London County Council make great efforts to provide accommodation before the bulk of the displacements take place. A very small percentage of the old tenants take advantage of the opportunity of goinc into the new buildings (11610-11613, 11626-11628)° The rents are fixed so as not to become a charge on the county rate. The rates have been subject to a, heavy chaige, but that has been incurred by the clearing away of unhealthy areas. The clearances and the re- housing are both carried out under the Housing of the Working Classes Act (11618-11625). Pi esents tables relating to the Borough 'and Regis- tration Districts of Westminster, Holborn, and St. Pancras (see Tables, Minutes of Evidence, pp. 481 to t>^Vanw?' 491\ the exception of Stepney and -oetiinai Green, these boroughs contain more than any other parts, (13875). From 1861 to 1901 the popula- tion has decreased in Westminster from 257,232 to 3.83,011; due to th- residential population being dis- placed by commercial premises, (13881-13889). The population of Finsbury -and Holborn has decreased m the same period from 221,692 to 160,127 the same causes operating <13890-13892). In St.. Pancras the population has increased from 198,788 to 235,317. The increase would have been greater but, for the railway companies, whereas since 1881 the population has been stationary. It has in- creased in the north, and decreased in the south, the tvv-> processes balancing each other (13893-13899). The alien population has increased in all the borougns in the same period : In Westminster from 5,582 to 11,831, i.e., 2-17 to 6*46 per cent; in Holborn and Finsbury from 3,330 to 8,173, i.e., 1*50 to 510 per cent. ; in St. Pancras from 2,239 to 8,156, i.e., 1*13 to 3'46 per cent. (N.B.—The children born of foreign parents are not included (13900-13905) ). The occupation cannot well be classified 'aiooordinig to the boroughs, as the Census returns do not show them (13906-13913). Table I E (p. 483) shows the net out- ward movement during the decade 1891 to 1901, which is obtained by adding the excess of births over deaths to the increase or decrease! of the population during the- period (13926>-13930). In these boroughs . there iis not- the same close connection between the alien population and overcrowding as in Stepney, nor is it as great, overcrowding meaning more than, two in one room (13935-13939). In Westmins-,98 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis, Harper, Edgar—continued. ter in 1891 38,834 were living under overcrowded conditions, in 1901 23,846 ; in Holbooi and Finsibury in 1891 69,056, in 1901 50,425 ; in St. Pancras in 1891 64,730, in 1901 56,423. The decrease is due> probably* to a better administration of the sanitary laws than in Stepney, and partly to clearanceis^ of insanitary areas under the Housing of the Working Classes, Act (13939-13949) ; nor have rents increased as in Stepney, but Stepney started low (13951-13956). Witness presented tables showing the nationalities represented in the different districts by the alien population (13957 and Table, p. 491). Harris, John. Alderman of the Stepney Borough and Guardian of the Whitechipel Union/ and member of the Port Sanitary Authority (21594-21597), assigns other reasons than alien immigration to loss of trade in Stepney ; aliens not adopting same trades as English, but having brought new trades and developments,; e.g.j mantle-making, from Germany (21604-21619). In tailoring trade English machinists are not procurable (21620); the whole trade has altered; in the East End (21621) ; aliens have caused rents to rise, with •consequenitl .overcrowding (21622-21631). Witness would have inspection and supervision of houses to police (21633-21636); would exclude un- desirables (21637-21639) ; is opposed to closing an area, as such a policy would provoke ill-feeling; would leave overcrowding in the hands of the authori- ties (211640-21650); aliens -come upon, the Poor Law to a very small extent, as returns show (21652-21661). The moral tone of Stepney has greatly improved 21662-21663), and great friendliness of feeling exists between, aliens and natives (21664). Witness wonild have aliens medically examined as port of em- hark at ion, and subject vessels to regulations ; would not exclude, but prevent through the consuls, unde- sirables from starting ; many now come in ill-health (21665-21678); defines undesirables (21687-21693). Hawkey, Thomas, is Examining Officer, 2nd Class, employed in the Customs House (820-821). Boards vessels arriving from Bremen, Hamburg, and Libau, bringing steerage immigrants, at Gravesend, and accompanies them to London (see also 1374), another subordinate officer (Anderson, 1368) boarding the Rotterdam boats. There are four arrivals from Hamburg, three from Bremen, and one from Libau and three from Rotterdam. On arrival the immigrants are col- lected in steerage for examination. Has to work .all days of the week. Is supplied with a copy of the Alien List, which the captain has to furnish under the Act of 6 William IV. (822-839). Has a •sufficient knowledge of Yiddish (840-841 and 1377- 1378). Finds the lists accurate (843). Obtains fol- lowing information from the immigrants according "to instuctions of a Treasury Minute No. 9999 of 1891 ; as to (a) the number, (b) the means, (c) im- mediate destination, (d) arrangements for their re- ception on landing, (e) their ultimate destination —as far as can be gathered (845-846). Enters, replies in a note book, and forwards return to the Board of Tr'ajde (847). In winter the .average number ol -aliens is about' 60 per ship (848). Though a Customs House, officer, he forwards returns direct, to the Board of Trade in accordance with an Order (G.O. 22/1894) issued by the Customs to the officers (849-853). .Finds the aliens arrive in fairly good condition, espe- cially from the Hamburg boats, which the German Government have put on the same footing as the vessels on the Hamburg-American line. The Rus- sians and Poles are much like any other similar class of people (854-857). Easily gains information respecting means, but only returns to the Board of Trade sums of money actually seen. The average last year ended 31st March, two children being calculated as one adult, amounted to 24*20 marks, but some are positive paupers (858-865, 1313-1316, and Table LXIL, Appendix). This average relates only to destitute aliens travelling in the steerage, who during the same period contributed 62 per cent, of the total arrivals by these steamers (866-868). The average money for 1900 was 21*21; for 1899, 25'87 ; 1898, 33'3 ; 1897, 25'1; 1896, 28'0 ; the average for eight years being 26 marks (869, and Table LXII., Ap- pendix). A special officer is only at the Port Hawkey, Thomas—continued. of London, the passengers to the northern ports being chiefly transmigrants; to America (870-871). He makes .all returns to the Board of Trade, his own and hie. subordinate officers (872-873). The returns from Harwich are made, by ordinary officials (874- 878). The Bremen boats and two of the Hamburg boats arrive at St. Katharine's docks. Two other Hamburg boats lie in the river opposite the docks. The Rotterdam boats go to the Customs House Quay (879). Immigrants on landing in London are met by an officer (Godfrey) from the Jewish shelter who assists them to their destination (880-884 and 1372- 1374). Does not know what then becomes of them (885-887). Some produce through tickets to America, but the transmigrants not possessing through tickets are entered in a special column in the return (888-889). Some pay through fares to agents in Russia who give address of London agent, who provide them with tickets almost entirely by the " Beaver" line to America (890-895, see also 1450, 1525-1527). Some continue their journey under changed names,, but witness; knows nothing of them officially after leaving vessel in London (896-898). Some have arrived with large sums of money (1312). The. average per adult for eight years having under 10s. is. 15 per cent. (1318). This average includes men, women, and children, two children counting as one adult. (1319-1321, 1341^ 1357, and Table LXII., Appendix). Finds some slow in telling the amount of their money, e.g., 12 persons arriving by the "Portia" from Hamburg, but as a rule immigrants give a fair account of their means. They, however, largely conceal their destina- tion (1330-1337). Concealment of destination is chiefly due to the agents abroad, who instruct the immigrants not to state their destination in Germany, but they keep up the deception in England. Has found many in the Jewish Shelter who, though they have said they were not, were going to America (1339- 1340). Has found immigrants, generally in good health and free from physical defect (1358-1361). Does not wear uniform, and does not believe it neces- sary, because the heads of the Jewish community inserted in foreign Jewish papers that .an official of the Government would board the vessels at Gravesend arid examine the immigrants as to means, etc. (1362- 1364). The list of those not in good condition was discontinued in 1894. It was in use during the time of the cholera, when the Port Sanitary Authority in- sisted on 'medical examination of all emigrants at Gravesend. Those on list 1 were liberated on the vessel's arrival in London ; those on List 2, described as filthv, or otherwise unwholesome, were detained under the Public Health Act until Dr. Collingridge, the P'ort Medidal Officer o.f London, released them. Now no. such precautions are taken (1381- 1386). The Medical Officer of Health belonging to the Port Sanitary Authority meets every ship and boards those arriving from ports where epidemic disease prevails, or if the captain declares he has illness on board, in which case he examines' the invalid, or all, at his discretion. Anyone having an illness of an infectious nature he removes to the Sanitary Hospital at Gravesend (1387-1401). There are three Medical Officers, and one is always in attendance. Dr. Williams is the head Medical Officer at Greenwich (1402-1403). A conference with the shipowners in 1895 with regard to rate cutting and so on resulted in the improvement of the condi- tion of immigrants on German ships (1407-1410). On these ships each passenger has a ticket, on back of which are regulations insisting on cleanliness, etc. (1412-1416). Not always the most respectable go on to America (1420-1421). The connection between the transmigrants and agents appears to be as follows :—An immigrant pays his full fare, say from Russia to America, via London. He receives no receipt, but merely a ticket to London and the address of the Russian agent in London. There are four of these agents in London, named Moses Feld- man, 6, Church Street ; I. Stern, 7, Little Holloway Street; I. Kahan, 106, Commercial Road ; and J. Bloch, 41, Whitechapel Road. On arriving in London the immigrant goes to the agent, who for- wards him on to America, if, and when he receives advice from the agent abroad that he is to do so (1422-1429, 1434-14361 The emigrant receives definite instructions in Russia not to say that hisANALYSIS. 99 Hawkey, Thomas—continued. destination is. America, especially at the German ports. The. reason for the secrecy is. as follows. In 1895 there was. a conference between the German and English shipowners, when it was agreed that the through fare to America should be £7 10s. from Germany, and £5 10s. from England. The difference of £2 between the £7 10s. and the £5 10s. was not to go entirely to the German boats, but was to be pooled, and to be divided amongst all the companies on con- dition that the English companies agreed to take no transmigrant unless he had had six weeks' residence in England. Now these agents book these passengers in Russia, send them through Germany clandestinely to London, and by so dioing put into their pockets the £2 which should be pooled by the companies (1430- 1433, 1437-1439, and 1456-1458). (N.B.—There have been cases of gross treatment of aliens by these during their enforced stay.) (See 1451-1455). The Beaver Line did not join the conference, and may therefore ship transmigrants when they like (1437). That there is a regular traffic is shown by the number of those who travel via the Great Western Railway to Liverpool to proceed to America by the Beaver Line. Mr. Bennett, clerk to Mrs. Kendall, the Beaver Line agent, states that over 600 left Paddington, the accumulation of three weeks, who- had no through tickets, and who had been handled by the agents (1459-1462). In the summer of 1901 about 200 per week went on, but only 50 stated so, or that they had paid their fares abroad. They said they were acting under instructions of the agents. Those that went on represented about one-half the general arrivals (1465-147(1). / Divide immigrants into four classes : (1) those who> have through tickets; (2) those who have orders on agents; (3) those who. come to stay with money; (4) other aliens. Class 1: They are very few. In 1894 and 1895 only 1,290 out of 8,345, i.e., 15*4 per cent., but in 1901 only 2*8 per cent. (1463). Class 2 : In 1898—1899, 8 per cent. (1474). Class 3: Represent German and Dutch, prin- cipally waiters, gardeners, barbers, and so on, 34 per cent. (1478). Class 4: 26 per cent., i.e, (a) immi- grants who come really to stay, form 10 per cent, of the total immigrants into London; (b) itinerants, visitors returning, sailors, etc., 16 per cent, (1480). Taking the steerage immigrants as 62 per cent., and Class 4 as 26 per cent., the balance would represent transmigrants, being the most respectable class (1481-1482, and Table LXII. Appendix). The luggage of these steerage immigrants would average one package per head (1483-1485), those coming to stay having less luggage. Many of the respectable ones are undecided whether to go on or not (I486), but in view of the restriction laws in America the tendency of the poorer classes is to remain here (1487). Very few of the immigrants are old. Some come over to their children (1493-1494). The four London agents are agents of the Beaver Line, and therefore of none others (1496-1500). Wit- ness receives information from Kahan respecting the Libau ships, but not from the other agents (1505-1506). Kahan is agent of the Libau boats. Passengers by the Libau boats receive vouchers from the agent in Libau (Knie). On voucher is stated ultimate desti- nation, etc., which Kahan corroborates (1507). These vouchers are only given at Libau, nothing given at other ports (1508-1509). Transmigrants without through tickets for the eight years' return average 5 per cent., and those who have through tickets 5 per cent., but the total is really much larger (1524-1525). The Hamburg American Company in 1897 sent agents to see how the English companies were carrying out their agreement with reference to the six weeks' residence, and one Harms took an office on Tower Hill. If shipping companies had failed in agreements they would have been penalsed (1532). Im- migrants often, forward money to friends for security (1534). The fare from Libau to London is 36s. for one adult. Two children count as one adult (1535- 1538). One great advantage in coming to England en route -to America is that there is direct traffic from England to Canada, but not from other coun- tries. The inspection on the Canadian frontier is not so severe. This is why many come here and take the Beaver Line (1541). Most of the transmigrants come to the Eastern ports, cross to Liverpool, and proceed thence to America (1542). If there were no names changed it might be possible to obtain the number who arrive here, and the number who go out, in a period approaching that of the arrival period (1546 6144. Hawkey, Thomas—continued. Analysis,, 1549). The immigrants would no tobject to examine- tion by a special medical officer (1550-1553). Meeting two or three vessels would suffice, as the condition of the immigrants is the same throughout the year (1554- 1555). A medical man would not be required to ascer- tain if the immigrants were filthy. The officer of Customs could do so by examining their luggage as they do now (1557-1560). The luggage is a test of the general improvement since the German authorities have adopted strict measures (1562-1563). On arrival the aliens appear underfed, but the general condition and appearance is much improved since 1892 (1564- 1566). Haut, William Edwaiid. Deputy Town Clerk of Sheffield Corporation. Refers to evidence of Mr. Murfin (see 14741-14750) reflecting on tailoring contracts of Sheffield Corpora- tion. The corporation's contracts were about £9,500 in 1902 ; they advertise, insisting upon a special fair wage clause under penalties ; the contractor signs a contract embodying this clause ; the corporation insist upon sanitary conditions, reserving the right to inspect workrooms and wage books ; a practical tailor in the police department inspects the work ; they do not allow home work. .. The subdivision of labour system is the bone of contention, but the corporation clannot interfere in this, as the two unions, the Amalgamated Society, which, exclu- sively composed of Englishmen, is strongly opposed to subdivision, and the International Society, largely composed of Jews, are both recognised by the Trades Union Congress ; on the Sheffield Corporation the labour interest is well represented (21101-21110). Hayeb,, John. Is Inspector of Police of C Division, the area of which is from St. Martin's Place, St. Martin's Lane, Upper St. Martin's Lane, St. Andrew's on the east, to Park Lane on the west, Pall Mall on the south, to Oxford Street on the north ; takes in Soho, and represents the extreme of wealth and poverty (12971- 12975). French, Germans, Austrians, Russians, and Polish Jews reside in it; Italians largely preponde- rate in Soho and its vicinity, having displaced the French (12978-12980). Italians come in contact with the police in crimes of violence, use of the knife (12981-12983). Italian clubs are decreasing in num- ber, owing to the activity of the local authorities ; the ordinary night club is low, filled with women, for music and dancing, not gambling,; there are 109 bona fide clubs in the district, and 17 night clubs now, the latter showing a great reduction (12984- 12990). The Russians and Poles, mostly Jewish, d-> not come direct, but from other parts of London, chiefly from the East; having had experience in the tailoring, bootmaking, and capmaking trades ; ihey do not trouble the police (12991-12997). Foreign prostitutes abound, but men who live upon their earnings are fewer since the Va.gra.nt Act of 1898 (13001-13005). For table, which refers to C. or St. James' Division, showing the number of British sub- jects and foreigners charged with various offences during the years 1892 and 1902, see evidence (13006- 13017). The increase in foreign crime is noticeable north of Regent Street and in the whole of Soho (13018-13023). A man's statement as to his nation- ality is generally taken, and if the name is very foreign, his assertion that he is naturalised is ac- cepted, and he is entered as a British subject (13024- 13036). Foreign prostitutes are not difficult to dis- bnjjnis h (13037-13038). About 126 clubs are regis- tered, but the bogus clubs are not being registered ; witness has no knowledge of any anarchical clubs or organised bodies of criminals in Soho (13039-13042) and (13055-13059). A large part of the work of the police is tc. deal with aliens, and considering the area the force is larger in the district (496 of all ranks) than elsewhere,0except the A Division (Whitehall); but in this case the circumstances are exceptional (13043-13047). The language question does suggest a difficulty, but an interpreter is always obtainable (13048-13052). Soho is a kind of refuge for foreign criminals, because so many of their countrymen are to be found (13054) ; but' Soho is not exceptionally dangerous, though there is a concentration of dangerous population (13060-13063). Criminals are not to be found amongst the working class aliens, but come from the unattached; the former are well conducted, and more sober than natives; the un- attached are the undesirables (13064-13072). O100 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Analysis. Hea1):lam:, Rev. Stewart. --Chairman of the Evening Continuation Schools Committee of the London School Board (20213). The work done under the London School .board in the evening schools is very comprehensive (20218). Those in Whiteohapel are mainly attended by .Polish- J ews and Russian Jews and Roumanians, who show a great desire to learn ; they are not all children, many being adults (20219-20226). The witness puts in a table which gives the totals of pupils admitted to certain schools according to ages in the session 1901-2 ; alien children get extremely keen after a short time, especially about English literature (20223). The highest number of attendances is in Settle Street school, Stepney, 899 (20225) ; about one- third of these are naturalised ; in all the schools, ex- cept the Rutland Street school, the great majority are aliens, the average being about two-thirds (20229- 20234). They come straight from business, and dis- play more eagerness than jur own people (20237). In the St. Peter's school, Hatton Garden, halt the pupils are Italians, who- are very regular in their attendance, but are not so keen as the Jews (20240). In the schools where there are a good many Jews the majority of the teachers can speak Yiddish, and in the Italian schools two or three can speak Italian (20242). Foreigners axe above the average in regular attendance ; the Jewish boys are now beginning to take an interest in gymnastics (20245). Henry, Edward Richard. Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police (23547). It is not feasible to differentiate the criminal from the non-criminal on arrival, even if specific information be previously forwarded (see also 23595), as no Con- tinental law requires a man to carry about papers showing his criminality ; nor could forgery of a certificate of character be detected; the knowledge that there was some machinery might be a deterrent, but probably not effective (23549-23563). There would be difficulty in establishing satisfactorily that a man had been a criminal in his own country; it should be left to a Court to decide (23564-23565). The expatriation of an alien convicted here should also be left to the Court, as part of the penalty, and in default lie should be punished as a rogue and a vagabond ; means, in the event of poverty, might be provided; money, or a ticket to a port of his own country (23567- 23573 and 23590); there have been Acts in this direction (23574-23579). The police are in a position to make this expatriation effective, because the criminal would be registered (23580-23589). If he re- turned his identity could be established by the thumb marks (23593-23594). No country professes to deport its own citizens (23600-23602). The French claim the jight to send Englishmen back, but they wait till they are convicted (23603-23605). The amendment of the Tagrancy Act, 1898, was indirectly effective in driving out souteneurs, but probably they have returned; it did not give the power of expulsion (23607-23613). France will probably adopt the finger-print system ; Austria and Hungary have done so (23614). Hebzl, Dr. Theodore. An Austrian subject, published in 1895 a pamphlet, "A Jewish State," which resulted in the establish- ment of the Zionist movement; was elected president the first Zionist Congress at Bale, Switzerland, in 1897; and re-elected at every subsequent Congress. As head of the movement, has been brought into close touch with the whole of Jewry, and can see that the state of Jewry is worse to-day than in 1895 ; proved by the appointment of the Royal Commission. In his pamphlet he stated that Jews incidentally carry anti- eemitism in their train. That there is a perceptible number of Jews in England is the cause of the Com- mission. If restrictive measures be ^adopted FkigHand will break away from the principle of a free asylum to the oppressed; if they be not adopted the mere fact of the Commission will give an impetus to immigration. The local questions of hous- ing and overcrowding are but incidental, the forces ■at work against Jews being here, as elsewhere, " forces of common trade jealousy, of inherited prejudice, and of pretended self-defence." Material advantages do not bring the Jews to England and America, but a desire for the freedom of life and sou] unknown in Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe things are be- Heiizl, Dr. Theodore—continued. coming worse, e.g., in Roumania Jews, after having served in the Army, are still aliens. They are fixed u utieir nomes, ana misery and exile are with tliein synonymous terms. The statistics relating to the Jews m London, as to their number, etc., only show the extent of the persecutions abroad. The idea UA-ginatea by a section of the Jews of dispersing them- selves about the country is a short-sighted one, practically adopting restriction of alien immigration, it shows the depth of despair among the Jewish com- munity, and is conceived in the same spirit as Jewish charity, which in old times was instituted to assist travelling from other countries, rendered paupers through persecution. Now we see charity helping Jews back to the country of persecution, thus helping them from better to worse conditions. Assimilation by inter-marriage is also an impossibility, and is as much opposed by Gentiles as by Jews. The solution of the Jewish difficulty is the recognition of the Jews as a people, and their establishment in some recog- nised home, and the only problem before the Commis- sion is how the stream of immigration, which is bound to go on with increasing force from Eastern Europe, may be diverted. So far as Jews are concerned, the solution is practicable and feasible. Witness is aware that the question of alien immi- gration is not only a Jewish one, in spite of the fact that, hithertoi the inquiry has solely dealt with Jewish immigration, but that it is an economic question, and in this light thinks that England should welcome a sober, thrifty, and industrious community (6244- 6246). We must expect an increase not only brought about by material forces on the one side, and on the other side moral forces, but also< because the Jews in Eastern Europe, like wounded men, must be helped (6246-6250). The Jewish Charity in London therefore attracts them, and this Charity, by taking them off the rates, reduces the reproaches levelled against them in England ; but if the number of immigrants in- creases and is not diverted, the anti-semitic feeling, not general now in England, will grow (6251-6254). Dissemination, relieving the pressure at one point by encouraging the people to settle in other parts, is impracticable. A Jew has a tendency to assimilate, but if he is ordered to go to a certain spot, means of earning his living there must be provided; he may be influenced, but he should not be forced (6255-6262). That the Jews, when their number becomes percepti- ble, are a " trouble and a burden," is due to economic reasons, that they are ready to'work cheaper, seeing that any conditions are preferable to those which they have left (6263-6266). The "trouble and burden" can only be dealt with by diverting the stream in such a way as each would take, bringing them under happier conditions (6165-6268). The trouble and burden must be dealt with at its source by diversion, and not at the place where they are locally felt. The mere local burden is but a symptom, not the illness itself. The question is whether England will protect its native trade which pretends to be damaged, or open its doors to a suffering people (6269-6281). The fact of the appointment of the Commission involves action, and proves a desire to understand the situation (6284- 6289). Persecution in the East is not the sole cause of immigration here, because the desire to travel in- spires the young and the adventurous, but in the case of the older depression is the great cause (6290- 6291). The persecution has many forms—administra- tive, legal, local, general (6293). A man may say he is riot persecuted because he has not experienced its extremes, but may yet be in permanent misery, and unable to better his conditions. The present misery is a consequence of the past (6294-6297). The Jew is in perpetual fear of persecution (6298). Invitation of friends to come to better conditions, but not neces- sary in these days of publicity (6299-6301). Repatria- tion is cruel (6302-6303). The Jewish community have repatriated because unprepared to assist, as in the case of Roumanians in 1900 (6304-6305). Persecu- tion is a relative term, and the restriction of immi- grants may be persecution or not as the term is under- stood ; thus Jews carry persecution with them (6306- 6308). The Jews have hitherto been the only re- strictionists; but advocates of restriction desire to remove no privilege from those now in England (6309-6314) ; nor is this an inquiry only affecting Jews, but all aliens (6315-6316). Self- defence against displacement cannot be called preANALYSIS. 101 Herzl, Dr. Theodore—continued. tencied, but is real (6316-6323). The Jews alone have mo homes to go back 'to; thus repatriation by the Jewish community was a great fault for which the}' will suffer ; sclinorrers, may apply to be sent back, if only ior a shelter, and because they obtain charity (6326-6330). Witness is in conflict with a certain por- tion of the Anglicised Jewish opinion which is in favour of assimilation (6335-6336). A " dark cloud " is gathering in Galicia, where there are 700,000 Jews in deepest misery; each one of these able to rise is an economic advantage to a community (6337-066U). It is a difficult and big question, involving change in the conditions of England (6340-6345). Witness views the question from the point of view of Jewish nation- alism, binding on all who share his views; a nation being " a historical group of men of a recognisable cohesion, held together by a common enemy," the common enemy being the anti-Semite (634b-6352). Assimilation is possible which does not include inter- marriage, as in the case of the Huguenots; but the Huguenots are not an analogous case ; in respect to the Jews, assimilation is not wholly possible (6353, 6335 and 6385). Dissemination, too, is impracticable, and carries with it the idea of exclusion in detail (6357- 6361 and 6391). But dissemination which is not com- pulsory, which is the natural result of ordinary causes, is not objectionable (6413-6417). Baron Hirsch's large benfaction was money rather wasted, on schools, emigration, to Argentina, etc., but did not assist Zionist movement (6364-6372). Attempt to settle in Argentina was a failure, from lack of a flag and an idea (6373). The benefactions increased the number of sichinoinrers (6374). Witness does not know that pressure has been brought to bear upon Russia to improve the condition of Jews, by threats to withhold pecuniary assistance (6377-6382) American restrictions are ineffective because evasion is easy, New York having now the largest Jewish population of all towns in the world (6392-6396). Witness has a scheme which would create a centre of sufficient attraction to attract Jews in another direction, but will not give details (6397-6398). It does not involve exclusion from country of settlement, but it would divert the stream of migration (6399-6406). Anti-semi- ticism with growth becomes dangerous (6407-6409). Thei statement by the author of " The Jew in London " that ■" the outcry against the pauper alien seems, in fact, to be the commoner, on the whole more bitter in political than in industrial circles," is probably correct because such movements are political (6410- 6412.) A Jew can be a Zionist, and a patriot of the country in which he settles, as' was seen in the late war (6418-6420). The programme formulated in the Basle Congress states the aims of Zionism are to create a legally assured home for the Jewish people in Palestine ; it also aims at alleviating the distressed conditions of Jews (6421-6422). The persecution of the 250,000 Jews in Roumania lies in the uncertainty of their condition, in the real and legal boycott, in the fact that "alien" and "Jew" are synonymous, and that to have security in Roumania, one must be a full righted citizen ; that citizenship can only be givein to a Jew by vote of Parliament; even if the Roumanian Government carried out the provisions of the Berlin Treaty, and gave Jews equality with Roumanians, the population would persecute the Jews (6427-6442). Speaking as an advocate of his race, witness wants no restriction '(6443-6449). Admits that he has not sufficient data to speak from the British point of view, and does not feel qualified to express an opinion upon methods for the regulation and control of immigration, as each country decides for itself, but would prefer that things remain in statu quo (6450-6464). Does not condemn Jewish charity, but thinks it should not tend to create mendicancy, but should help the deserving working men; would have it devoted to settling aliens else- where ; attempts in this direction have failed, but from want of an ideal; therefore Palestine would be preferable to Argentina; the self-supporting idea was wanting in Argentina (6465-6474). Approves Lewis' views, that though the aspirations of the Jews are towards Palestine, they should accept English hospitality gratefully (6475). Doubts whether Ameri- can regulations are efficacious, though, of course, they are deterrent, as immigrants have to be selected, whether by English or other institutions, but wonders 6144 Herzl, Dr. Theodore—continued. Analysis. at America, which has been made by immigration, - objecting to despairing men ; young civilisation is made by despairing men (6476-6488). Highmore, Nathaniel J. Senior Assistant Solicitor of Inland Revenue at Somerset House. Department deals with frauds in connection with illicit stills, and takes proceedings for the protection of the stamp revenue, particularly in connection with foreign postage stamps ; witness gives terms and penalties of the Excise Law (9859-9862). Cases of the illicit manufacture of spirits dealt with from 1893 to 1897 were six only, from 1897-1902 51 (9864-9865). The police have nothing to< do with these cases (9868). They represent convictions only, and not the full number prosecuted for the offence; they were all against foreigners, Poles and Russians with two exceptions (9874-9880). In the case of prosecu- tions, unless it is an important one, a remand is generally obtained in order to secure heavy penalties ; the penalty upon arrest in the case of a first offence' is merely £30; as a rule the defendants go to prison in default of payment (9882-9884). Men are generally engaged in the manufacture, women in the distribu- tion of the spirit (9888). Witness explains the nature of the stills used, and produces samples of the manu- factured spirit (9891-9921). The spirit is not sold where it is manufactured (9925-9933). There is a special penalty on the purchaser of these spirits (9943). To prevent importation of foreigners for the purpose of manufacturing illicit stills, the Chairman of the Jewish Board of Guardians issued a general warning through the Poor1 Jews' Temporary Shelter in English and Yiddish, which was widely circulated, many foreigners being ignorant of the offence (9946-9950). Witness quotes cases of prosecutions for the sale of liquor at unlicensed premises (9957-9986), and for forging stamps (9987-9991) and for forging foreign notes (9992-9993). The majority of oaisesi of prosecu- tion are against recent arrivals into the country (9996). Russians come here to forge stamps and notes, because the penalty io Russia is more severe, and the general supervision leading to detection much greater (10001- 10010). Hodge, Harold. A Barrister-at-law, Editor of the " Saturday Re- view," works in connection with the Oxford House, and since 1887 Member of the Mansion House Council, Bethnal Green Branch, of which branch he is now chairman (8026-8028). The Oxford House is a. Uni- versity settlement consisting chiefly of Oxford men, and does all sorts of social work, is on a strictly religious foundation, and works in connection with several Hargje organisations (8029-8030). Witnesls is on the department of the Mansion House Council which attends to the Housing of the Working Classes (8031). Its method: Receives reports of insanitary houses, and after inspection reports nuisance to the local authorities through the Central Committee (8165), and follows it up till abated. N.B.—Inspectors are not legal officers, therefore need not be admitted, hence caution is required in dealing with cases (8143-8144). Sometimes takes action in Courts; 40 eases on an average are brought to its notice weekly ; the larger number of insanitary houses belong to- aliens, the condition of which is generally due to the owner, the landlord; the aliens are also to blame, more so than the English; the alien owner is exceptionally bad (8032-8033). The alien population, is so increasing that a very bitter and alarming hostility is being caused ; the English; 'are hit in their weakest point, as the East Bnder specially clings to his: lodgment; ccai- siequently pressure occurs, causing to< the aliens high rents which the English population do not pay; dis- placement therefore follows, and other house accom- modation being extremely difficult to procure, the bitter feeling is engendered (8038-8040, 8173-8176). The society spirit does not exist amongst aliens ; some join Unions, but they do not observe the rules (some trade unions will not admit, foreigners, but the majority will) (8129-8132). The rents, which are too high, form the chief grievance, giving rise to an agita- tion for fair rent courts, as advocated by Mr. Stead- man, but its complication would render this scheme unworkable (8041-8046). High rents do not lead to overcrowding, but crowding is the cause of high o 2102 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Asi' lysis. Hodge, Harold—continued. rents ; there axe no vacant spaces, and the alien land- lord encourages overcrowding far more than the English landlords, who, however, are not guiltless ; gambling in house property exists in Bethnal Green (8048-8052). Overcrowding and the dis- placement of the English population form the most serious aspects of the question ; there is a deficiency of house room taking the legal standard of accom- modation ; if there were no aliens the overcrowding would be serious ; but these, being prone to it, in- tensify the evil; but they do not differ much from the ordinary English population, who* also over- crowd ; the ordinary occupier and the ordinary land- lord do not mind it, and the alien landlord en- courages it; therefore, although the native standard is not a high one, that of the alien is lower (8053- 8067), but aliens pay rent which the English will not pay (8068-8069). This overcrowding question is so important that a measure should regulate the immigration. Though aliens have done some good, the gain does not counterbalance the evil effects of overcrowding (8070-8071). Stern enforcement of the law will not affect the overcrowding problem at all, so long as the actual deficiency in house room exists ; the arrears in house room must first be overtaken. Dr. Shirley Murphy must assume that if the popula- tion be distributed there is enough house room ac- commodation ; this assumption probably rests on the belief that the people will be persuaded to live outside ; but their work will not enable them to do so, and if they had the facility they would not go ; they object to the strain of having to come in the morning by train during the winter months (8072- 8078). But the County Council is building for many thousands of people outside, e.g., Tottenham (8079- 8081). So long as the aliens pour in, and probably in increasing numbers as our doors, are shut to them, the supply of houses can never keep pace with the demand ; this question of immigration is, there- fore, of vast importance (8082-8085). Ignorance of the exact amount of accommodation in London for purposes of comparison between the existing supply and demand prevents any definite scheme of build- ing ; an annual, budget of house accommodation, and of the people to be accommodated, taking all things into consideration, e.g., influx from the country, , destruction of house property for the erection of factories, etc., and immigration from abroad, might be useful (8086-8093). Seeing that there are so many arrears and deficiencies, building should be con- ducted upon a single scheme. The difficulty of deal- ing with the inflow from abroad in the budget scheme might, to an extent, be actually met; but, of course, "the solution would be loose, as the extent of the inflow , is dependent upon circumstances abroad (8094-8097). In the interest of the whole community, especially with regard to overcrowding, the inflow should be Tegulated and checked (8098-8100). The substitu- tion of large blocks for two-storied houses, which, being in various ownerships, would have to be bought up compulsorily, would provide increased accom- modation. At present, when the leases fall in, the houses are simply vacant, and often there are five or six persons between the ground owner and the oc- cupier (8101-8107). The displacement of English by an alien population, and the fact that the latter' •come to the towns, as do the natives from the country, afford cases for restriction as aggravating over- 'Crowdjng in towns (8108-8111). On the other hand, organisations at great expense send selected Eng- lishmen to the Colonies, chiefly to relieve the pressure at home; hence the question arises whether the admission of a surplus of foreigners •compensates for the expatriation of Englishmen, the 'standard ^ of the former being lower (8112-8117). English inhabitants feel very keenly the fact that certain parts of the East End are foreign colonies ; undoubtedly the alien inflow is directly and indirectly causing the emigration of Englishmen (8118-8120). Retaliation by foreign countries would probably not take place (8122). The feeling against the settled English Jew is not so great, albeit an owner of houses, as against the immigrant, who, by excessive industry, is enabled to buy house property and overcrowd , (8123-8128). Witness does not think: that the details of restrictive measures come'within his province, but he would give wide discretionary powers and control, Hodge, Harold—continued. applicable to all foreigners (not only Jews), to the Board of Trade, the tests being poverty, health, place of origin, etc. (8133-8142). Bethnal Green (area 755 acres) could provide sites for block giving 400 and 200 cubic feet to each person, and so supply ample accom- modation (8148-8152). The demolition of the Boun- dary Street area has not affected the overcrowding problem; in that the residents there do not over- crowd there is a gain, but they have come from all parts of London, and the displaced are overcrowding in other parts; thus one part is benefited at the ex- pense of another, but an isolated scheme cannot affect the overcrowding; problem (8153-8162). Witness would agree with the suggestion to a certain extent that the local authority should be empowered in cer- tain circumstances to declare an area as a eooigersted area., and to frame regulations in regard to any pro- spective demolition of houses with a. view to providing for the displaced, but thinks that a building scheme should be a single scheme, of a, central authority, and not split up amongst local authorities (8163-8164), The local authorities in Bethnal Green , have done nothing, but they cannot be altogether blamed (8165), Assuming a. large proportion of the overcrowded children, a congested area is rendered more so by the necessity to provide school accommodation, but high buildings might meet this difficulty (8167-8170). The central authority would deal with the conditions in, and outside, London, looking ahead, say 20 years, the alien immigration being only one factor, but one which must be considered in connection with over- crowding ; the law cannot be enforced in present cir- cumstances (8178-8185). The desire to remain in, and to come to, London, renders the law inefficient ; im- migration into towns from abroad is more easily checked than from the country, and aliens should be dealt with with greater stringency, and could be more easily dealt with, than British subjects (8187-8194). Overcrowding in London is increasing, in spite of workmen's trains, etc. ; whatever adds to it should be restricted and controlled (0196-8200). From, a London point of view the driving into, towns by agricultural labourers to earn high wages should be stopped, but from a national point -of view such checks might pro- duce evil by keeping unproductive labour in the country (8201-8205), but a,s a foreigner has no a priori claims restriction, which could not be imposed upon British subjects', might, be imposed upon foreigners (8206-8210). Witness has not considered the question, from the point of view of reprisals, nor fr^n that of the competition of wage-earning labour (8211-8213). He thinks the evil of overcrowding more serious in London than in agricultural districts* yet relatively more appears to have been done in the direction of building in villages than in London (8214-8216). Hope, Dr. Edward William. Medical Officer of Health of Liverpool (21395). In Liverpool are 40 consular representatives (2i398). Aliens have been settling for 20 years, but lately in larger numbers (21399-21401). The. majority are from Western Ilussia. and Poland, principally from the borders of the German frontier, and represent two distinct races, Jewis-h and Christians:; they settle principally in the Brown-low Hill and the Eair- clougli Lane areas, approximately 5,000 in number ; the Jews live in sublet lodging-houses (21402-21404). The standard of domestic cleanliness amongst recent arrivals is low; the women employ cleaners, the husband working at his trade (21405-21409). Tliey are particular about their food ; their bedding is clean ; the women are good mothers, and take great care of their children; infant mortality amongst them is low, because breast-fed (21411-21417). They become more cleanly when under the influence of the feanale and male inspectors.; prosecutions are rare, because the law against over crowding, which is rigidly enforced, is enforced without difficulty ; every sublet house being, registered (21418-21427). There is no rental limit in the bye-laws, but the houses for registration are discretionally selected ; bye-laws are necessary (21429-21440). Prosecutions are generally under the bye-laws (21441-21442). The present law is sufficient (21501). Overcrowding is not gaining round in Liverpool (21514-21518). Natives are as bad as aliens, and more careless (21519-21526). The Irish are great offenders (21562-21564). Aliens at first stay with their friends, until the landlord accepts them as tenants (21443). Many Jews stay inANALYSIS. 103 Hope, Dr. Edwaud William—continued. lodging-houses temporarily before proceeding to America; if they have no money Jewish Board of Guardians provide a shelter in Great Orford Street (21444-21447). As. a rule, Jews are sober, and good workers ; are employed chiefly in tailoring, cabinet- making, picture-frame making, glazing, and peddling; their relations with the Christians are friendly ; they often set aside a room or rooms for their work, which, owing to supervision are clean and well ventilated (21448-21450). They have to a certain extent dis- placed native population, but rather through taking houses vacated by a better class (21451-21452). Im- migration makes no -appreciable effect on the City (21453-21454). The whole foreign-born population is nearly 10,000 (21456). They very seildom come on the rates (21457). The Christian Poles or Russians are chiefly employed in the sugar works, they are sober, industrious, and compare favourably with the native population (21459-21461). The Italians are ice-cream manufacturers, moulders in plaster of Paris, -organ-grinders, and so on, they are located in the worst part of the city (21462). All send their children to the English schools ; diseases, e.g., eye diseases are common, but not more among aliens than natives (21462-21467). The Chinese, Spaniards and Scandinaviams are few, but law-abiding citizens '(21468). Trans-migrants are medically examined in the lodging-houses of the shipping companies, and again on board by medical officers of the Board of "Trade, and frequently by a medical officer appointed by the American Government. The port sanitary authority also have an officer to take charge of the rejected ; the grounds of rejection are often most trivial ; the whole family is detained at the expense of the shipping company until the ill member has recovered, when they proceed ; very few are de- tained, and practically none absolutely (21469-21474 and 21532-21535) Many trans-migrants come from London, chiefly Russians and Poles ; the Finns and Scandinavians come chiefly through Hull (21475- '21476 and 21527-21530). Trans-migrants are booked right through from Russia to America, and are charge- able to the shipping companies until landed at their destination (21482). Those rejected in America are - sent back at their own cost; very few remain in this country, they are rejected almost invariably on ac- count of health (21487-21490). A law prohibiting immigration would be damaging to the interests of Liverpool; undesirables, e.g., criminal classes, care- less, incompetent, incapable people,, should not be allowed to settle in this country; if rejected in America they should be passed back to their homes (21504-21506 and 21509-21512). Cattlemen* in Liver- pool are necessary evils (21507). Many are most un- desirable (21508). There is no medical examination at Grimsby or Hull (21531). The few rejections in Liverpool would point to the thoroughness of the medical examination at Hamburg, Bremen, and other continental ports (21535-21539). The sanitary autho- rities in Liverpool have no organisation for following up the rejected, but they often know their move- , iiients (21553-21558). The shipping companies pay proportion of the cost, but often the amount expended i« refunded (21565-21570). -.Hough, E. Leadham, Senior Official Receiver in Bankruptcy. (22706). During the last nine months, of 1900 there were 529 receiving orders, of which 77 were against non-British subjects ; in 1901, 700 receiving orders, including 97 against. non-British subjects ; in 1902, 598 receiving orders, including 88 against non-British subjects ; .and in the first three, months of 1903 there were 169 receiving orders, including 27 against nom-British subjects. During this period the loss to creditors amounted to £6,590,704, the alien being responsible for £1,220,850 (22710-22722, and Tableis A and B). Nationality of alien immigrants against whom re- - ceiving orders were made (see Table D), Americans head the list, some of the failures being for large . amounts due to financial speculation and company promoting (22727-22731). The Ruissiaais are third on the list., and they are largely composed of people who arrive with little or no capital (see- 22793-22797), but manage to save a little, and so start for themselves (22731-22741). • In three years the loss sustained by their bad trading was £233,000. Table E deals with the trades and occupations of the. aliens against whom - receiving orders were made (see also 22745-22751). The Hough, E. Leadham—continued Analysis. proportion of the foreign population of the metro- polis is about 3 per cent., but the proportion against whom receiving orders were made was about 15 per cent. (22752). Germans and Russians are mainly trader's, and are here some time before they obtain credit (22758-22762). Difficulty of keeping these people from coming here (22763-22765). These re- turns do not include children born here of foreign parents (22772-22773). No information with regard to small trade failures, deeds of composition, etc. (22774-22781). A feature of alien insolvencies is the non-keeping of books (22782-22785, see also 22799- 22803). Some of these aliens had failed previously (22786). They gradually extend their credit until something happens, and then they come into the Bankruptcy Court without assets (22730). Excep- tional cases with regard to German and Russian losses (22804-22808). Hyder, Richard (Inspector). Sub-divisional Inspector of H Division (7299). Stationed at Leman Street Station (7300). Dis- trict comprises riiat from City Boundary to lNew Roau, Whitechapel, thence south to the river — all in stepney Borough (7301-5). Sta- tioned six years and eight months m district; previous to mac was m the west (V60d-9). About bu per cent, oi whole population foreigners, but not the case when witness nrst went to district; increase has been gradual, but more rapid during last two. years (7310-4). District originally iinhabaced principally by labourers in docks, wool warehouses, and general warehouses (7315-b). Wool workers engaged in pack- ing and carting raw wool for transmission to* manu- facturer ; have been driven further out, but no trace into; which locality (7318-21). Dock labourers in the small portion of YVappmg known as " the island " be- longing to witness's district not disturbed by aliens ; in all other parts of district ousting of dock labourers has taken place (7322-8). Aliens on first arrival dirty and often not decently clothed, but improvement after- wards noticeable in their habits (7329-36). Male aliens on a par with their predecessors in occupation as regards temperance, but alien women more tempe- rate than native (see 7452-3) (7337-44). As regards crime, aliens no better than old inhabitants, and more difficult to get at on account of not knowing their language; percentage of convictions quite as many as previously (7345-8). Foreign. prostitute has practically driven away native'; prosti- tution, a,s a whole, not increased (7349-50). iSative shopkeeper ousted to great extent (7351). Witness unable to explain how foreigner is enabled to oust native ; aliens' shops more general in character (see 7406) (7352-6). Number of casualsl or loafers among aliens remains the same as among the old inhabitants (see 7403) (7357-60). Question of overcrowding not within province of witness (7361-2). Majority of aliens are Russian and Polish Jews, many of whom belong to Jewish faith (7363-4). Gambling and gamb- ling-houses much on the: increase ; latter zo witness's knowledge kept solely by foreigners during past six years and eight months that he has been m district (7365-8). Foreign boats arriving with alien immi- grants on board met by police officers, sometimes by witness (7369-70). Thames Police send intimation that vessel is approaching ; officers then send to land- ing place, which, in witness's, district is the Iron Gate Stairs, for object of protecting aliens from interfer- ence, and preventing them from being imposed upon, and also to prevent a breach of the peace ; police officer has no jurisdiction in the dock nor facility for boarding vessels (see 7434 and 7454) (7371-82). Number of aliens1 that arrive counted roughly by police officer, reported to inspector, and entered into Occurrence Book (7383-8). No distinction made be- tween German and other vessels (7390). Condition of alien immigrants varies very little on different vessels (7391). Aliens poorly clothed on arrival ; foreign style of dress attracts attention (7393). Aliens always met by their own people from, Jewish shelter, or by friends, living in East End, and on leaving dock usually walk away, their luggage being taken on barrows, after which are lost sight of (7394-7400). Only instance of aliens arriving in destitute condi tion and with no on© to meet them, within recollec- tion of witness, was that of a number of Roumanians landed in 1901 (" about twelve months ago ") (7401-2). Common lodging-houses not. within province of wit-104 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis. H^i>er, Richard (Inspector)—continued. . -—~ ness ; latter not prepared to say what proportion of their occupants are foreigners in district (7404-5). No complaint to witness by English tenant as to ousting by foreigners (7407). Witness has from own experience never formed any opinion ais to cause of English tenement or house being left by English tenant, the latter going out of district; has never received complaints from English tenant as to in- ability to pay rent that foreigners could, owing to latter overcrowding (7408-9). Witness; instructed by his chiefs to give evidence already taken from him and submitted for approval, but also free to> answer any question (see 7522-5) (7410-5). Not aware of public comment by magistrates in district upon increase of foreign crime of late (7416-8). Loafing class aliens apt to become impudent after arrival, and, being un- accustomed to free institutions, to take advantage of their newly acquired liberty (see 7483-7) (7419-22). As regards general behaviour, alien placed by witness on a par with average British working man (7423-4). Language of aliens not understood by police, a fact of which aliens take advantage, though perfectly well understanding what is required of them by the actions and gesticulation's of police (7425-33). No reason to fear breach of peace or interference with aliens on their landing (see 7455) (7435-6). Witness has no feeling either for or against alien immigration, and, in official capacity, during period of six years eight months, has no knowledge of organised outbreak or ill-feeling of British against aliens in district (see 7448-50) (7437-41). Solitary quarrels! 'occasionally take place (7442). Breaking of windows and furni- ture prevalent in Cornwall Street, but not prevalent in portion of Wapping, 'between two bridges, in wit- ness's district (7443-7). Reticence of witness in giving evidence as to opinions expressed on immigration question ; refusal to state anything but bare facts (see 7460-71 and 7525-31) (7451). No material differ- ence in charges of drunkenness during last six years (see 7337-44) (7453-4). Reason for making Commis- sioner's regulation that police shall meet aliens on landing not known to witness ; regulation in force when witness joined the service in 1877 (7456-9). Refusal to give hearsay evidence ; instructions to com- municate facts (see 7451) (7460-71). Instances illus- trating difficulty experienced by police in dealing with aliens on account of language (7472). Total ignor- ance of Yiddish on part of police officers (7473-8). Duty of witness to attend places of entertainment where foreign language is spoken, but ignorance of same prevents him from forming an opinion as to nature of performance (7479-82). Number of crimes of violence and fighting about the same as, formerly (7491-4). Thieving and pickpocketing prevalent, cer- tainly no improvement in this respect (7495-6). No increase in prevalence of burglary (7497). Organised gang of 12 German burglars arrested in witness's division in December, 1901 ; unable to say whether gang was organised before or after arrival in England (7499-7504). Whole gang convicted ; no theft effected in Stepney, gang living there but working outside ; tried at Central Criminal Court, Old Bailey (7505-10). In alien criminal cases, police have to depend largely on their own evidence, which is of greater weight than anything else (7511-3). False interpretation to criminal of police officer's evidence, and vice versa often causes difficulty ; successful prosecution of foreigners harder thethat of English, therefore foreign criminal has rather better chance of escaping justice in England than British criminal (7515-8). Difference of opinion exists among English popula- tion in Stepney with regard to alien immigration (see 7526) (7519-21). Orders received by witness from Mr. Henry; Assistant Commissioner, to give evidence before Commission according to statements taken, and of any fact; from own knowledge witness declines to give hearsay evidence ; not to his advantage to be rt?garded as partisan of either side (7522-31). In regard to 12 burglars caught in Stepney, witness, speaking from memory, does not think any of them were Jews (7532-3). Isaacs, Asheu. Clerk to the Manchester Jewish Board of Guardians, which works exactly on the principle of the London Jewish Board of Guardians ; it does not assist anyone who has not been resident in Manchester six months, except by grant of 2s. 6d. at the outset (20736-20740). Few aliens come direct to Man- Isaacs, Asher—continued. Chester; in the year 1901-2, 45 out of a total ..t 232 only came, direct, the rest having lived in other English towns (20741-20746) (see Table D) During the first six months of their residence aliens • do not appear to> need assistance either from the rates... or from the Jewish Board of Guardians (20749-20751). Tailors and hawkers are chiefly the applicants (20754). Witness hands in five tables : Table A, showing the- Jewish foreigners relieved in Manchester from 1882- 1902; Table B, being a classification according to - country of the foreigners relieved, from 1882-1902 ; Table O, giving cases of natives relieved here, above- • and under a year, from 1882-1902; Table D, giving the age. of foreigners in Manchester resident under one year who arrived in 1901-1902; Table E, giving trades of foreigners in Manchester under one year, and the number in each relieved. The* tables show that the poverty is quite normal; that it varies, with the state of trade, and.. that the Russians and Poles predominate (20764- 20773). The Manchester Jews are an industrial and not a huckstering population, with the exception, perhaps, of tailors, all working in factories, many having become, the owners of factories (20782). The mode of relief of the Manchester Board of Guardians; does not correspond with the Poor Law relief ; the former gives loans and sets up in business, but has no apprenticeship department ; it has a medical de- partment (20786-20789). During the late Passover- week it was found that only 12 Jews were in the Prcstwich and Manchester workhouses ; the Jews in the infirmaries ^iverage four to five throughout the year (20792-20795). In the case of wife desertion the- Jewish Board of Guardians only uses the machinery of the Poor Law to enable them to proceed against the husband ; real cases of desertion are, however,, very few (20796-20798). During the Passover week there were only three Jews in the Manchester prison (20799). In the cases of repatriation the Board is - assisted by the Society for the Relief of Distressed Foreigners, dividing expenses ; the six months' law operates in these cases also (20800-20803). The re- pain ati on cises would average about one a week (20805). The funds of the Board are very small, its annual expenditure being about £1,350 (20813-20815). The Society for the Relief of Distressed Foreigners; helps without regard to creed ; the Jews are not re- presented upon it, but recommend cases (20836-20838). 'Ihe Board does not recommend cases of repatriation unless it is satisfied that the applicant has sufficient money given to him by his friends to proceed beyond Hamburg (20843). The presence of Russians and Poles snrl Germans in Manchester does not appear to - occasion any inconvenience, nor have they displaced any trades, but rather they have created some, e.g., the waterproofing, capmaking, and the cabinet- making trades (20849-20851). Johnson, James Wm. Chairman of the Executive Committee of the- British Brothers' League, which was formed early in._ 1901 (8553 -8557). Witness deals- with (1) the reasons which brought the league into existence ; (2) dis- placement, giving instances, as shown by diminution of congregations, in churches and chapels ; (3) the great addition to school requirements ; (4) how the ■ alien lives, and how his presence affects the natives ; (5) the housing problem; (6) model dwellings to- which the working classes object (8558-8561). Witness regards alien immigration as a national evil, and would exclude them; asserts, they live - upon vhe rates, e.g., in Leeds more than returns show ; would allow those here to- remain (8571-8599). The league has no subscription ; it has branches in Hackney, Bet'hnal Green, Shoreditch, St. George's, Royden, in Essex, and Stepney; 45,000 have signe t as 'membars (8612-8614). Jones, Henrst Corbeii1. Town Clerk, and Solicitor to the Borough of Hol- born (21976). The general population of Holbirn is 59405, the alien population 5,700, about 9 per cent. (21980-21983). There are 42 registered common 1 odging-'houses in the borough, and 596 houses let in lodgings registered (21985-21983). Witness gives analysis of aliens in Holborn, and of their trade- (21991-21997). The aliens ihave not caused over- crowding, which does not exist to any serious extent..ANALYSIS. 105 J ones, Henry Corbett—continued. Aliens clo not render the enforcement of the law ' impossible,.-but perhaps more difficult (21998-22003). Rents have gone up, as aliens will pay more than natives, as they sub-let (22004-22008). The native tradesman does not suffer through alien immigration (22009). Aliens keep much to themselves (22010- 22012). Witness contradicts certain statements in the evidence of Mr. Birch (see his withdrawal, 14842) (22019-22032). -Joseph, Nathan S. Is Chairman of the Conjoint Committee of the Russo-Jewish Committee and of the Jewish Board of Guardians, and Chairman of the Board's Sanitary Committee. Has intimate knowledge of the East End of London; is an architect by profession, and understands the housing problem (15750-15752). Pro- duces two papers before the Commission: (i.) on the v general alien question, (ii.) overcrowding and housing question. (1) The General Question : Estimates from burial statistics that the average increase of the Jewish population of London due to immigration and births consequent thereon does not exceed 2,000 per annum; therefore if any large estimate of alien increase be correct such as 71,000 in a year, the foreigners cannot be Jews (15753-15757). The Census Returns of 1901 show a. larger increase (26,099) of Russians and Poles over 1891 than the estimate of 2,000' would justify. This is probably due to more careful enumeration in 1901. But, accepting this increase in the decade, the annual increase would be 2,600. The fact that only 8,271 were assisted by the Russo-Jewish Committee • shows that either the alleged increase is excessive or the greater proportion could not have been in neces- sitous circumstances (15758-15761). The evil is re- duced to a local one affecting Stepney. Does it war- . rant exceptional legislation, even if British Christians have been displaced by Jews? The displacement has not been expropriation, but replacement, the conse- quence of natural causes, e.g., propinquity to the City, erection of business premises, facilities by railway and tramcars; the removal of old industries, e.g., weaving, sugar, baking. The places thus: vacated have been filled up by Jews, drawn there by being near their own countrymen, synagogues, etc. If they had not arrived the houses would have been abolished for business premises. Increase of rents is doubtless to a small - extent due to the demand created by the new settlers, but is mainly due to the enhanced value of the site, which increases the ground rent; it is a struggle for existence of the dwelling-house against the shop, factory, or warehouse. Every new business place erected meians augmented demand and diminished supply. Foreigners must live somewhere, and if so, in houses a,t one time occupied by natives. The new ^settlers are peaceful, quiet, and law-abiding. The criminal statistics, however, for 1902 show an increase -over those of 1901. Taking the whole Jewish popula- tion as 120,000, the 348 Jews committed in 1901 would give 29 per cent., but in 1902 there were 540 com- mitted, increasing the percentage -45. Witness refers to Jews under the visitation of the United Syna- gogue's ministers. As; the general alien criminal population has increased, m probably has the Jewish alien criminal population increased (15762-15769). The Jew, of course, after his journey, presents an un- savoury appearance, and his poverty necessitates a low standard of living at first under overcrowded con- ditions. The various charitable agencies, e.g., the Location and Information Bureau of the Russo-Jewish -'Committee, keeps him from being overcrowded and sweated, and the standard of life improves rapidly. ' The children also show rapid improvement. The aliens do not unduly compete in trade; they soon receive full wages, as the records of the Bureau of the Russo- Jewish Committee show. If free trade admits foreign goods without duty or restriction, why not foreign labour ? The immigrants having the elements of self- - support are rarely paupers; a true pauper is repatri- - a ted with his family. The statistics of the United Synagogues show that during; 1901 only 146 at - any one time were in workhouses and infirmaries (15773). If most of these' were in Stepney and Whitechapel, thus increasing the average as far as those plaices1 are concerned, half of the rate- payers are also Jews (15770-15781). Of the 22,233 persons treated by the Russo-Jewish Committee from 1882 to close of 1901, 10,953 have settled, and only "776 (173 eases) applied for relief in 1902. Most of these Joseph, Nathan S.—continued. Analysis* were last year's arrivals. This shows that aliens are - wage-earning. The rejections in New York in 1900 (2,667 out of 368,550) do not encourage same methods here. It is difficult to say if an immigrant is likely to be- come self-supporting. Witness suggests adoption of the United States' method of compelling the steamship companies to give a, bond to the' State contracting to reship to Europe at their own cost an immigrant who within a year becomes a, public charge, or who might become physically unfit and criminal (15782- 15784). (2) Overcrowding is the consequence of a general shortage of house accommodation to meet the natural growth of the London population by the excess of births over deaths. From 1891 to 1901 the excess was, after making all allowances, 300,228 (15785- 15792). The London County Council up to September, 1901, had only provided for 32,000, i.e., one-tenth of the increase. The Census Return shows that while the London population has increased from 1871 to 1901 35-1 per cent., the number of the inhabited houses has increased 31*5. Witness, however, takes a block like Rowton House building as one house (15793- 15796). The evil exists chiefly amongst the lowest classes, the prosperous wage-earner being better housed in 1901 than 1891. The better this, better class are housed the less room is there for the poorer classes, as is seen in St. Pancras, Notting Dale, Camberwell, Southwark, and Stepney. In great industrial centres, shops, warehouses, etc., take the place of dwellings, and thus great congestion is caused. The taking in of lodgers, which is due to a rise in rents, causes over- crowding. The increased cost of land, local rates, and the other' circumstances mentioned discourage new building schemes ; thus old insanitary houses remain at high rents. Slum jobbers and slum owners are especially responsible for high rents. Street improve- ments, school building, etc., are also- influential fac- tors. Building schemes will not alone, however, settle the question. London so> overgrown must be depopu- lated by the removal of factories which have no local reason to be in London. Some are being removed. To discourage the continued existence of so many factories in London, and on the other hand to en- courage the building of working-class dwellings, the process of the law (Valuation of Metropolis Act, 1869) under which the ratable value of a house under £20 per annum is three-quarters of the gross value, while that of a factory is only two-thirds, should be reversed. It might even be wise to encourage the removal of a factory from London to the provinces by exempting it from local rates for a, certain number of years, as is done in Hungary. The enlargement of London fac- tories and warehouses should be discouraged by im- posing re-housing obligations upon the lines of the model clauses lately recommended by the Joint Com- mittee of the two Houses of Parliament with respect to railways. Such enlargement® might also necessi- tate housing accommodation for the extra, workmen required. Under these conditions the enlargement of Mann and Grossman's Brewery, Mile End, which has caused the demolition of 154 houses and the eviction of about 750 persons, would have been impossible (15797-15817). Every encouragement should, be given to the erection of dwellings for the working classes, e.g., the law for compounding rates should be made compulsory, 'and the usual certificate' of a. local sani- tary inspector should suffice to entitle tenements under .an annual value of £20 to exemption! from in- habited house duty without needing the certificate of the Medical Officer of Health under the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1890, Sec. 26. (N.B.—This certi- ficate is often refused.) The transit difficulty is now being removed by the extension of tramway systems and' tuiba railways. To encourage' living outside London the time spent in travelling should be included in the hours of work, especially in such trades as cabinet-making, where the hours are as long as 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. The main con- dition of municipal. housing schemes* should be that the L.C.C. and the Borough 'Councils should keep separate accounts of these schemes, independently audited, and that the rents be so adjusted as to involve no charge upon the rates.. There should be no need to obtain the consent of the Local Govern- ment Board with reference to the clearing and covering of sites. Nor is there any reason why the cost of a site, if acquired at market value would not allow a case of smiill-pox to land ; he would give a power to arrest ; ;^n; ' of criminal on arrival (16225-16229). The, Russo-Jewish; Committee repatriates habitual beggars if they refuse a labour test; they generally r CQiis0nt to be repatriated, 'but some are forced back by refusals of other forms of help (16230^16234). It -s ^lso,^repatriates confirmed invalids if healds of fami- x Jies ?.(3k6235)»> Some^ e.g., -fugitives from justice or the .military laws of his country, object to being re- patriated, but they go eventually (16240-16241). When a man becomes permanently chargeable on a parish he shouJd be expelled (16245-16246). Wit- ness describes depraved condition of Flower and ^ Deafo' Street, Thrawl Street, and the Boundary Street ■ area of the past (16249^16255), but the improved ; character i^ not due to alien immigration, but to improved dwellings erected (16256-16257). (For Dr. Burner's report, handed in by witness, giving . comparative figures of overcrowding (16258 and 17971), The * maximum number of Jewish inmates one time in 1901 in Stepney was 61, under f 4)02 per cent of the total inmates of workheuse estajb. il^hitients (16264). ICbamjiisch, JACOB. • ••• c • : Isja naturalised British subject living in Glasgow; is-manager of the cigarette department in Stephen Sori^; ^ranch of ther Imperial Tobacco Company of preat Britain and Ireland, since 1888 wijJi Messrs. Player in Nottingham ^ V?%.. r Before ri888 the ; consumption ^of cigarettes was a comparative novelty in ;England. and 6144. ; Kramrisch, Jacob—continued. s practically unknown in Scotland ; since it has en or- " _ mously developed, witness's firm employing about 160 males (all foreign Jews) and about 100 females (partly foreigners and partly natives) ; machinery ?n manufacturing cigarettes has developed; a large colonial export trade has been opened up ; thife en- tirely new industry has been created almost exclu- sively by alien immigrants (21717). Wages are good, a mati averaging 32s. per week, a female 17s. ; Eng- lish males do not take to the trade, leaving it almost entirely to Russian and German Jews (21724-21728). There is very little sub-division of labour. Landau, Hermann. A nautralised British subject ; in England 38 years (16266). Connected, with various Jewish charities, principally Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter (16267). On Jewish Board of Guardians and Rosso- Jewish Committee. The latter was started, when the persecution in the East was acute, to asist the Jews to emigrate to Canada, America, and elsewhere. When their ogiginal work was over, having funds, they co-operated with the Board of Guardians, thus preventing duplication of charities (16269). Founded the, shelter in 1885 to provide a temporary shelter and refuge from crimps for transmigrants, all of whom, as the German competition did not exist, came through London. A representative of. the shelter meets each boat; 95 per cent. pass, through the shelter, -i.e., directly and indirectly. (See also 16321-16334 and 16491-16510.) Those passing through! London1 from Harwich, Grimsby, and other ports are also accommodated. No distinction is made between Jew and Gentile. Those with through tickets .are boarded out at the expense of the shipping com- panies, which pay most of the expenses of the shelter. Those intending to stay in London may reside in the shelter for a period not exceeding two weeks. , The average stay is six days. The particulars respect- ing each individual are entered in the books of the institution. Few are destitute. (See also 16335- 16343.) Sixty per cent, are skilled workmen ; 20 per cent, are women and children. They are all strong and healthy, having to go through two* medical examinations (see also 16344-16364), only one case of" sickness, having been known within six years, 14,0©0V ' to 15,000 having passed through. (See also 16365- 16380.) It is difficult to gauge amount of money in hands of each immigrant on arrival ; much has been lost on journey through necessity to;bribe, espe- cially in Russia! (16271-16283). The better class come direct from Libau (16285). Em plovers do not engage greeners from the shelter, nor do the authorities ^con- stitute thy representing London'!as their destination. (N.B.—Immigrants can save nearly £3, but the German companies, will not grant them tickets via , England. > (16285-16286" and 16410-16414.) This proves that the estimate of imimigrants has been . greatly exaggerated (16289- 16292).' The present increase of the immigration -to- East' London js partly due to a fear of the result of" 'the Royal 'Commission, which the-continental agents' encourage (16293 and 16429-16431)- Overcrowding in' the East End is due to the propingiiity to the docks, the presence of markets, schools,'synagogues, and friends speaking the same language ; "also to the erection of warehouses1 and pulling down of 'houses biy railway companies (e.g., the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway Company). To prevent oy^rcr^wd- war the law should be enforced. Criminal*.—The aliens .in the East End are not of the criminal type. The foreign criminals are of a distinct class. Causes of immigration from, ."Russia.—Persecution'; 'not, poverty. From Roumanian the action of, the Govern- ment. The J/ewish charities arev,no att-ractions:; nor doe$ trade attract.;, . Labour.r-r-M E^sf: End, not -:low .wages, but ," lack of ..continuous employ- ment pressesthe workman. The presence o;f the alieii Jews is an; economic advantage to the; c^ntry, elm, cheap clothes >. boot s, etc. - The introduction of-Germans: by a . glass ;m a±iufactutor resulted in a cheap bottle being made in England, ?108 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Landau, Hermann—continued. whereas formerly they were imported from Germany. Qualities of Aliens.—They are loyal. The second generation adopt English customs of life ; when once they have settled they remain and spend thedr money her© ; they are thrifty and sober, healthy and moral. Their standard of living is high. Their sanitary observances account for their good health (16293- 16298). A measure of restriction would be injurious to the British shipping interests. (See also 16459- 16463.) The adoption of passports would not affect the aliens, the subject of the Commission, as the un- desirable criminals are of a class who could obtain them. A consular certificate would lead to inter- national conpldcations, The bulk of the immigrants are young men, who^ are liable to conscription, and the Russian Goernment would not suffer British re- presentatives granting permits to such. A certificate from a guild is out of the question, as the Jews may not join guilds in Russia. The remedies as to un- desirables, of whom there are very few (16387), exist now in the repatriation by the shelter authorities and the Board of Guardians. If toleration exists in Russia aliens will not leave (see also. 16476-16477), as there they can prosper in trade more than here (16298- 16309). Witness has prepared two tables, A show- ing comparative amounts of total working expenses of the shelter and money paid by the shipping com- panies from November 1st, 1892, to February 28th, 1903 ; and B showing the number of inmates of the shelter' who stated that they were " en route" : (16309). Many are repatriated, not because they are . unfit, but because the industries developed by ma- '."chinery, etc., cannot supply sufficient work for all 16381).. The absolutely -destitute are allo-wed to remain 14 days in the shelter in order that they may have time to communicate with and obtain money /from their friends for proceeding. If money is not " sent they are persuaded to return. They generally • arrive destitute, because they have been robbed (16392-16405). Superintendent of shelter states that whereas in 1901 1,327 passengers, who had not declared themselves en route, were SO'; in 1902 the figures had risen to 4,392 (16419-16425). With refer- ence to alien criminals, the inclusion of sailors qualifies the statement that 3 per cent, of the prisoners are aliens. Few aliens are criminals, and amongst the alien prisoners the proportion of Russian Poles are smaller than the others (16466- ' 16470). None come back to the shelter after 14 days' residence for assistance (16478-16483). Many arrivals are looked after by immigration agents (16510-16519). About 15 per cent, will have passports, ; showing that they have conformed to< the laws of their ^ country (16526-16527). Passports are always obtain- r able in Russia with money (16528-16531). Who are undesirables ? (16535-16538). Unskilled labour is not undesirable (16539). The passport system, if adopted, must be universal (16555V Action of agents at the port of embarkation would not be feasible (16558). Lang, William, f.r.c.s. ■ President of the Ophthalmological Society of the "United Kingdom, and Surgeon to the Institution for -the Relief of the Indigent Blind of the Jewish Per- . suasion (20569-20573). Examines all children be- longing to the Westminster Jews' Free School (see .also 20633). Has not found any case of granular _ ophthalmia, of which trachoma, or roughness of the lids, is a symptom (20574-20586) (see also 20604- 20616). Refers to Dr. Tyrrell's evidence, who, he made unauthorised statements. Denies that trachoma is incurable. The disease is not peculiar to Jews ; Poor-law children suffer from it (20587- 20596). It is very common in the East (20620). America, where it is very common, is particularly strict in excluding those suffering from it (20623- 20627). Witness would certainly exclude it from Eng- land (20628). ;-Levy, Mrs. Amelia, District Visitor in East End and Manchester. 'Twenty-seven, years ago there were large settlements . of foreign Jews, Russian, Polish, Dutch, and •4 German, in the neighbourhood of Back Church Lane, •Boyd Street, Everard Street, Christian; Street, "dmberstoin Street, and .all streets as far as Little Inner Street, Commercial Road. As to the chief centres of the criminal class, Flower and Dean Street, Thrawl Street, Great Pearl Street, Little Levy, Mes. Amelia—continued. Pearl Street, there were no Jews at all in those localities. The criminal population was entirely English (17897-17898). Having had experience both of Manchester and the East End, there can be no doubt that the housing in Manchester is much better. There is more room, the sanitary arrangements «&re better, and the sani- tary authorities have more authority (see also 17922- 17930). With reference to health, it can be said without hesitation that the health of the. foreign Jews is far superior to that of the natives. The class of foreigner now entering is. distinctly better than formerly; they are better educated, and often come; over with the knowledge of a good trade. They are sober, moral, industrious, thrifty, excellent fathers, mothers., and wives, willing to learn, easy to teach, and grateful for being taught. Naturally, when the foreigner first comes over here, he must go* where he can be understood, but when once be has acquired the slightest knowledge of the language, he buys whre he can get the best value for his. money. It is- the large drapers' shops and general stores that crush out the small shops in the East End and elsewhere. Moreover, many English businesses have done a largely-increased trade during the last few years since, the foreigners have coone in (17899). As to the food of the foreigners, several witnesses have stated that the standard of food is much lower amongst them than, among the natives. These statements may be absolutely denied; the foreigner is most particular about his food, the food being universally excellent. With regard to wages, the foreign Jew needs more than his English neigh- bour, theu'e being many more calls on him. Most of them have to pay to have their children educated (17900). With regard to restrictions, being imposed on the admission of foreigners, it would be difficult to see what reason there would be for restricting foreigners when the English overcrowd just asi much (see also 17464) (17932). There were as many aliens during the years 1876- 1883 as there are now, but there are many more skilled labourers now than there were then, and the majority come to join relations, who have preceded them (17937-17948). Levy, S. Chairman of the London Jewish Master Bakers' Society, which represents 60 Jewish masters ; presents statement of wages paid per hour to Jewish bakers, as proved by books, and compares Jewish with Gen- tile wage, the former being higher ; also their re- spective holidays. The society has amalgamated with the Jewish Journeymen Bakers' Union, agreeing as to hours of labour, wages, and immunity from Sabbath labour. All disputes are settled by an arbi- tration committee consisting of an equal number of masters and men. Witness shows how the Jewish bakers' trade is altogether independent of the Gen- tile trade (20071). Witness appears again to sub- stantiate statements (21951-21975), as they had been contraverted by J. Roth, secretary to the East Lon- don Bakers' Union (21873). Lewis, H. S. Member of Stepney Borough Council. With re- gard to the growth of the population in Stepney compared with that of other metropolitan boroughs in the inner ring of London, it would appear that the boroughs adjacent to the City are declining in population, except (1) Southwark (stationary), (2) Bethnal Green (stationary), and (3) Stepney (in- creasing). The high rents paid in the latter quarter by Jews keep it residential (17224-17229). If Jews had not come to Stepney, the increase of rent would have been the same, as factories, etc., would have dis- placed dwelling-houses (17233-17244). The trade of the Thames is moving further down the river. Even now factories are built in Stepney, but the displace- ment of population is balanced by the increased size of buildings. The population is increasing in those districts which are Jewish, declining in Limehouse (see 17267), which is not Jewish (17245). The Eng- lish-born Jewish population, which has been in the western parts of Whitechapel and Spitalfields, having left, partly through the demolition uf houses, areANALYSIS. 109 Lewis, H. S.—continued. being replaced, by foreigners in buildings erected on the site, but some buildings are entirely occupied by Christians. Thus there is rather a replacement than displacement of population. The original popu- lation remove as the foreigners increase, due partly to prejudice, but chiefly to change of ownership and increased rents ; but in the extreme south of White- chapel the foreigners are very few. In districts in which the substitution of model houses for insanitary houses has not occurred, the moral character has improved through the advent of the foreigners, but in some districts the evils of overcrowding have been intensified by them. Wherever there have been de- molitions, and new buildings erected, the Jews have to a great degree replaced the natives (17246-17261). It is a mistake to describe St. George-in-the-East as greatly changed for the worse ; the better class of inhabitants had gone long before 1875, previous to which time the staple industries were riverside labour and sugar refining. The death rate returns prove its insanitary condition when these industries failed. Overcrowding olso existed before the advent of the Jew. The medical officer, n hs report for 1873, describes -the unhealthy conditions which pre- vailed, and in 1877 he describes how the Jew had improved them, and in 1880 refers to their immunity fro-m infectious diseases (see 17266). Disorderly houses very numerous in 1881, but now, when thei population is entirely Jewish, very few exist/ Sun- day trading also existed before the foreigner came in St. George-in-the-East; gaps were created by the removal of those engaged in its dying industries, which the foreigner, at first unnoticed, filled. By industry the foreign Jews so improved their position that English landlords displaced natives for the higher rents the former could pay. The foreigners then became landlords, with the result that the popu- lation became foreign. The foreigners undoubtedly overcrowded, but the remissness of the Vestry was responsible for the evil (see 17276). Their staff was unequal to the work. They first winked at, and then, in 1888-9, denied it (17262-17266). The popu- lation of St. George-in-the-East increased until 1861, when it was 48,891, declined till 1891, when it was 45,795, and then, owing to alien immigration, again increased to 49,068 in 1901 (17273). With reference to the tailoring trade, the Census statistics show that the foreigners engaged in it were not in proportion to the general expansion of the trade, i.e., 6,437 more were employed in 1901 than in 1891, which number represents far more than the pro- bable increase of foreigners. This is more notice able with tailoresses (17292-17303). The decline in the boot and shoe trade in trade is probably due to increasing American competition and to machinery and the factories of Leicester and Northampton. The foreigners form a very small proportion to the number of people in London engaged in it; out of 24,549, only 3,869 being foreigners ; the small pro- portion of women is more marked. So far as the; cabinet trade is concerned, out of the 32,553 people employed, only 3,514 were foreigners ; that is in> 1901 (17304-17315). As to the character of the aliens (see also 17899), they are sober, hard-working, and law-abiding. They adapt themselves to circum- stances, and are seldom hopelessly pauperised. They have also more intellectual interests than the natives, being keenly interested in the education of their children, and quite a large number serve in the Army or as Volunteers. They have a lower standard as regards overcrowding, and the multipli- cation of small masters with work done in domestic workshops is a bad thing. Much of the exclusive dealing alluded to refers to the small retail shop, where the Jew is compelled to deal with his co-re- ligionist. Complaints are much more directed against large establishments, such as those of Vena- bles and Gardiner, than against the aliens (17320- 17330). With reference- to the allegation that the ' immigration of aliens leads to emigration of natives, the figures of the Board of Trade would appear to disprove it, as they show there were many more emigrants before the foreigners came. In 1887 there were 196,012 emigrants, in 1899 there were 46,116, and in 1900 there were 71,188. Unless persecution in Russia increases, the number of alien immigrants will not largely increase, and dispersion would largely diminish the evils of immigration and of, overcrowding in large towns (17342-17360). As re- 6144. Lewis, H. S.—continued. gards naturalisation (see also 17105), there is a great desire on the part of a large number of aliens to become naturalised, and the process should be made easier; the test should rather be one of education than money, as the want of the necessary funds is' often a deterrent. The Russians have figured most" largely in the naturalisation list; in 1901, 132 out' of 250 were naturalised (17361-17366). In the matter, of overcrowding more is to be hoped for from the Borough Councils than from the Vestries, and the work of registration is being rapidly proceeded with. But the owner ought to be made more responsible. The Factory and Workshops Act has effected some improvement, but the people should be further en- couraged to work in large factories. Some improve-' ment has been made in overcrowding by taking pro- ceedings and by enforcing the bye-laws dealing with houses let in lodgings. Encouragement should be given to municipal housing, which would not, as alleged, retard private building (17367-17398). The main means of combating anti-Semitism is by getting rid of the evil which gives rise to it, namely, the displacement of people from, their houses (see 17129). Every possible means should be taken to keep out undesirables by dissuasion. If the State could pro- tect itself without leading to worse evils, it would be perfectly right, but it would be difficult for a ' State machinery to discriminate between desirables and undesirables. There is a certain tendency to- wards dealing with their own countrymen, but a far greater to go where they can buy cheapest and best (see also 17899). If there are Jewish landlords who take only Jewish tenants, there are also Christian landlords who take only Christian tenants (17456 17501). Lithiby, John. Assistant Secretary of the Local Government Board, in charge of the division which include® the Public Health Department (23410). Reports of local authorities aire forwarded to the Board (23412). According to Dr. Thomas '(Medical Officer of Health for Stepney), overcrowding is more prevalent in his Borough now than ten: years ago, due to the in- creased numiber of Joireigjnersi; between 1881 aind 1891 the population increased 2,616, and between 1881 and 1891, 13,308; in every district overcrowding exists, but to> a greater degree in those inhabited by foreigners; poverty and high rents, are the chief causes; in 1902, 664 intimations to abate nuisances were served; successful at once in 296 instances; in 36'8 instances statutory notices were served, but legal proceedings were taken only in 16 instances. In St. George's district a special house to house inspection was made in 1901, visits being made between 6 and 8 a.m. on Saturday morning to Jewish houses, and at the same time on Sunday morning to those occupied by natives; 654 houses, containing 3,217 adults and 2,051 children, thus inspected (the cubical space •standard, An accordance with, the bye-laws being' adopted) showed 349 persons overcrowding; 629 families occupied one^rooimed tenements, 460 two- roomed tenements, 178 three-roomed tenements, 71. four-roomed tenements, 24 five-roomed tenements, 12 six-roomed tenements, three seven-roomed tene- ments ; in- 16 cases of prosecution various fines were inflicted, but only three others were made for abate- ment or prohibition (23414-23434). N.B.—A pro- hibition order prohibits the. recurrence of a nuisance,., an abatement order merely orders an abatement (23436). Witness thinks the present law is not in- sufficient. The fact that only 664 intimations were served would either prove that the dimensions of overcrowding are not very serious in Stepney, or that a sufficient number were not served (23440-23441). Stepney has about the approved proportion of inspectors, i.e., one for every 17,000 of the population, nor is there evidence more are required (23442-23449). The right of entry at all times under a by-law has not been denied by a. court; until this is done there is no need to strengthen the law (23450-23453). Witness would bring tenement blocks under (by-laws in certain crowded districts, and would have number allowed in each painted outside (23454-23470). Witness sees strong objection from an administrative point of view to closing congested areas (23471-23484); advises stricter eMtorceiment of existing law, the local authorities getting rid of their humanitarian p 2110 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Lithiby, John—continued, proclivities. (23485-23490). Thinks, the mam. wlilo receives the rents. should be made liable fox gross- o*Vei?6ro'w,diiiig (23494-23498), Regards the power of b^-law maMiig^mOst important, because defmition ai' ^ererowding cldaidy defined, and there is need to prove facts' which constitute a miisiaince. Does1 not >agifee with Dr.:: [Phorn^s that' by-laws are cumbersome 23S01-2350Q): !The County Council has power of jft^eopseding c«ad- and of complaining to the Local Govefcnmbnt Board; but this has only omce been done, in the case of Bethnal Green (23&O9-20516). Witness:' doubter that exceptional cir- cumstances should necessitate diffusion of expense, but it must be remembered that the diffusion already extends' in respect to Medical Officers of Health and sanitary inspectors (23517-23522). Loanh, Bb. Joseph;. / Was Medical, Officer of Health to the Whitechapel district from 1883, until Whitechapel became merged mto Stepney in 1900 (4480-4483). Up to 1883 there were very few foreigners^, but during, the last 20 years the alien population has increased enormously (4484- 4491). The clearances within the district of White- chapel from 1880-1900 show a total of accommodation for 14,177 people dislodged and 15,754 accommodated,; during, the same; period the increase in population was .about 7,400 (4492-4497). ; The largest' clearance was on the Royal Mint Street site, where nearly all Irish . labourers were resident. The clearance was effected under the Artisans and Labourers' Dwellings Act. . About 3,750 were displaced and 2,559 accom- modated on the same site, but by a superior class; the old inhabitants entirely disappeared (4498-4511). Block buildings have been piut up on these cleared ♦sites, in some of which tenants are carefully selected (4612-4518). Given equal conditions the foreigners appear to have a less death-rate than the native popu- lation. in these dwellings (4519-4522), From many blocks foreigners are excluded, but the greater num- ber of aliens inhabit the model dwellings, and in Whitechapel the great proportion who inhabit them are aliens (4523-4527). The density of population in Whitechapel district is 208'3 per acre, exceeding any other district (4528-4537). The death-rate from 1880 has been reduced from 25 per 1,000 to 18 per 1,000. This reduction is probably due to* an immunity from certain diseases possessed by the foreign Jews;, and to the fact that the Jewish mothers take1 greater'care of their children, also* to the sanitary improvements >(4538-4556). The birth-rate in Whitechapel has in- creaisedcfrom 36*2;in 1881 to 41*2 in 1891, and is much higher than the birth-rate among the: "English (4557-" 4560). There are many evidences that overcrowding is greater among foreigners than among English people (4561-4562). Booth Street Buildings are the worst type of building, occupied by the lowest class of people, showing great- overcrowding; the' aliens may be &eefr at their worst here (4562-4574). " After a tim& they migrate from Booth Buildings ;and generally improve (4575-4577); Bye-laws were made to register houses^' but few could be registered, owing to the exemption clause, the' amount of this clause, from 5s. to 7s. 6di, acting adversely, and it would be desirable tO' hav^t lib exemption clause. In 1884 279 houses were regis- tered (4579-4583).- With a. system enabling all the houses to be registered and properly inspected, over- crowding would be nontexastJeait (45§^,4j585).' The bye-laws-would ensure a. simpler method of enforcing the law (4586-4590). The Act which gives the owner of a house a rebate of his inhabited house duty is' salutary, because it ensures that the medical officer should certify that the* house has been built or adapted for the use of the working classes (4591-4592). In the1 -case of overcrowding, the summonses taken out for non-compliance with the bye-laws against the otoner, .300 cubicv feet per individual wh^re ithe room is occu-1 pied by day only, and. 400 where it is occupied by day and by nigjht, two children counting as one adult. As a matter of fact, there have hot been 10 such pro- ceedings in seyen; years (4596-4601). .There has been no difficulty in the proceedings under' the bye-laws,; but it has existed in proceedings under the Public Health Act against the occupiers for a nuisance; the proceedings have beeai confined to the first: informa- tion (4602-4608). In 1894 the London County Council complained to the Whitechapel Board of the insani- tary conditions and overcrowding in certain parts of , the district. ; Additional jijspectors were appointed with satisfactory results (4609-4616). Booth Street Loane, De. Joseph—continued. and similar buildings cannot be registered, owing to the definition of. a *' house '' (4617-4620)*. In witnesses opinion there should be no restriction in respect of rent. ""More 'inspectors to work ihe bye-laws should be appointed, and the landlord should be prime de- fendant in all cases oif overcrowding rather than the tenant creating the nuisance (4628-4641). In- the case of sub-letting, the occupier of such- rooms should be, treated as the owiier (4643). Owners evade the law by letting rooms/ with the basement, knowing that the basement will be sublet for sleeping purposes in defiance of the law (4645-4647). All owning or in- terested in a property should be registered (4649- 4660).- Those turned out should be provided for out- side the^ metropolis, (4664). Undoubtedly the present condition-of things in the East End is due to the in- flow from abroad. The only remedy against over- congestion in the East End is transplantation outside, but this should be done by some philanthropic.agency, not municipal authority (4669-4678). The natural in- crease, even if further emigration were stopped, would lead to overcrowding (4681-4683). The returns of the Board of Trade of the numbers arriving at the Port of London, and the figures collected by the London County Council as regards overcrowding and the in- crease of the population in Stepney alone, point to the dangers of continuous immigration (4684-4693). At a certain period ophthalmia is epidemic, but there is no reason why it should be more prevalent in White- chapel than elsewhere, nor is it more common to foreigners than to English (4706-4713). Lovell, Alfred Henry. A, Census enumerator in 1891 and 1901, in Mile End Old Town and Spitalfields (777-779). Did not experi- ence difficulty in. obtaining information (786). Lumsden:, Robert, Is check weighman at the Doctors' Colliery of the Wishaw Coal Company, Motherwell (14472). About 500 to 600 aliea's are employed in the mines. They are increasing, and entering the steel works. In the Lanarkshire Steel Works many Poles are employed. Alien labour has developed since the Scotch miners' strike of 1894 (14473-14478). There are seven aliens amongst the 430 working below ground in the Wishaw Coal Company (14483-14487) ; about 40 or 50 amongst the labourers, engineers, and blacksmiths above ground (14488-14490). The mines regulations are printed in English, which aliens recently arrived do hot understand. The influx constitutes a real danger (14493-14499). The uHder-managers who are responsible for the safety of the men cannot make the aliens ipider stand them (14501-14502). Where the Union is not strong the aliens take less wages. In the witness's mine, the Union being strong, they get the same wages as natives. The aliens can live for less. Tlius they are ^ow ousting the British workmen; e.g.; in June, 1902, when many British miners were out of work', the , foreigners were employed (14504-14511)^ Aliens often get boys from their country, whom they board and lodge. Many of these boys have not served the two years required by the Mines Regulation Act before they can act for themselves; thus they evade the law. The Brjtsh workman pays the boy so much a day, but does not keep him, but the foreigner, by paying him ^ith food and lodging, practically: sweats him. (N.B.—-A. miner is paid by piece-work, but himself pays those who work under him (14512-14526)) . The feeling of. British workmen against the aliens is \ ery bitter. They think that managers have employed the latter from preference to injhre the '""Union,, but the stand the Union made has altered'this state of things. There has been ho actual breach of peace (14527-14532). The sanitary conditions under which the aliens live are dirty (14533-14534). They arrive every week, each bringing a piece of paper with an address on it, thus, showing there is an organised immigration (14535-14540). Witness thinks that tiie mere statement, that a man has fulfilled the obligation of the Mines Regulation Act, that he has served two years under a practical miner, should.be supported by pro of (14541-14550)'. The aliens are chiefly Roman Catholic Poles (14554-14555). Witness is certain that they cannot take the place of the English' ininers, nor is their employment necessary. They are able men, and no provisioh prohibiting the, entrance of ,the physically sick would affect them, as, they are only inferior in •practical-•• mining. Absolute prohibitionANALYSIS. Ill Lumsden, Bobert—continued, .alone: woiild. aiiswer the ' purpose (14557-14570). , 'TKe ;;: danger of alien ' lab our"; vtfas' proved; by Poleslast Augtifct not; reporting an explosion, i^beiasgT only diiscolrefr^vH:he next day; Tim failure to i . s Lyons, Isaac. "An'English Jew,! and slipper maker and ladies' dancing shoe maker by trade. Disinclined to give his name, as apprehensive of; being boycotted for giving; evidence' (3237-3248). Aliens greatly over- crowd-(see also 3276), and accept low wages and work very long hours, depressing the standard of wages generally (3251-3254). The greener (see also 3342- 335Q).s learns a special easy branch (at first at very l0#: %ages (3264-1B2S7), and becomes in a short time ^-skilled mechanic in it (3255-3260, 3277-3281 and 33i7f5327). English refuse to work for aliens, as they caftiiotf get; their wages (3261-3263). Aliens induce others to come, who cut down the prices. Witness gives-instances, himself amongst others (3282-3301). The congestion is extending to Hackney (3302). The }o£ rymrk is. deteriorating through 'unfair corirpe- titioiii *(3303-3305). , Introduction* ofiria&hmery d&es-* no&af|eet the ladies'' dancing shoe, hahcl lkbvour h®ing -sn^cient (3309r3314). Witness gives processes (13) of rn^irig a slipper'(3315)/ Witness conteiids the) pric©r of the, *shoe could be raised without" fear of foreiga; competitibri (3331-3338). " ^ ^ : Lyons, John B. .. President of the Whitechapel and Spitalfields Costermongers' Union (19855). For the last ^ 30 years there has been a large body of Jewish costermongers, hut foreigners, do not only buy from foreigners (see also 19901-19908). The Gentiles do a large trade withj foreigners in poultry (see also 19893-19900).' Shop- keepers often put a stall in fitont of their own shops, hence giving occasion to charges that Jews' are the -culprits. Street .matkets are an advantage to cus- tomers, ratepayers,.....and shopkeepers v generally (19857-19866)., Witness expresses unanimous opinion of union (19874-1^881), which has 400 to 500 mem- Ibers, both Jews and Gentiles '(19883-19885). The ex- - planation of the disproportionate amount of prose- cutions (152 alien and 8 native) in the H Division is because aliens. are* much the most numerous (19921- 19925). Would only exclude the well-known criminal cla^J(X9031). " ' ;\ r IjYONSV!liiBWIS, ■ '■v,i' *■'" M a tailors ^machinist; recently; appointed General Secretary of the United Garment Workers of Great Britain, composed chiefly of Jews, though Gentiles are Lyons, Lewis—continued. Anali?.......is admitted (14061-14062). Has contributed largely to the - literature on Trade Unionism (14063). Is an English Jew (14064). The feeling against aliens and of alien, v. alien, is increasing (14065-14066). Aliens are cine-fly; engaged in tailoring, bootmaking, and cabinet-maMng, and to a minor extent in the fur trade (14065-14071). The Census Return of 1901 shows 76,213 tailors and tailoresses employed, and 3,861 employers in London, of whom 16,781 are foreigners, 59,742 being English. Of these 1,55$ aire in trade, organisations, but Jewish trade uniions flnotojate owing-to excessive immigjra.-, tion. Thus! 57,844 compete with Trade. Unionists (14073-14074). English organised tailors get from 3d. to 74. an hour in the bespoke trade, according to the. report "of the Amalgamated Society, of Tailors. Prob- ably tlie wages of the unorganised are , about the same. In first-class tailoring, Union aliens and English re: ceive the same wages,; also in the second class, but in this class $he Jew uses the sewing machine^ thus earning more money. The IJhglish tailor does not use the machine.. In. the third-(?lass trade Jews and natives compete in tjie bespoke tra.de, the Jew again using the machine,, thus making the garment at at cheaper rate. The merchant tailors' (Englishmen) give (say) a. lounge jacket to natiyes at 10s. 6d., to Jews at 8s. 6d. ; but 8s. 6d. practically represents the same rate of wages, or. more, because out of, 10 s. 6d. part ,is deducted for the machine worker, while the middleman provides his own machine and staff. Again, the Jewish/ middle- man benefits by adopting the sub-division of labour system. the English are now adopting this, and probably in ^ix years' time will cut out the Jewish tailors. (N.B.—These remarks refer to the bespoke trade (14075-14087). The hours are very long where sub-divisi on is practised. Witness disput es the s tat em- inent that sweating does not take place in large fac- tories, sweating being defined as " extracting a certain amount of human labour from a person physically in- capable of producing the amount of work required by the second person within a given time." The conse- quence is low wages or long hours. In factories the sweating is done by the reduction of wages, in work- shops ,by the extension of hours (14088-14092). The merchant tailor, the manufacturer, and the middle- man are . more to blame than the working men ,, (14093). There are 794 middlemen in Stepney employing labour; the Factory In- , specto,r having no control over the men, they work very long hours. A great deal of the work in the bespoke trade is piece-work, and the prices vary because there are a large number of unemployed Jews to draw from (14098-14099). The Union wants 8s. 9d. a day-for a first-class tailor, though he works on the sub-divisional system. But tailors seldom get six days' work a. week, the bespoke trade being fluctuating. Some employers, however, instead of paying £18s. 9d., employ two .inferior men at 4s. each, "getting double' the amount of labour from them. In the third-class trade the question is of alien v. alien, hence , alien discontent (14100-14109). The effect of alien immi- gration since the Jewish tailors' strike of 1889/ due to low wages, insanitary workshops, all-night working,- and which secured concessions (14119)j has been to reduce wages and increase working hours. The great influx of female native labour in the factories reduced the out-working system, increasing alien unemployed; and so affecting wages and hours; hence alien com- petition. Thus a bad state of affairs exists in London .....(14110-14111). Cheap clothes are not nasty clothes, the, sub-division o# labour tending to proficiency. The low wages occasioned -by surplus alietf . labour tends to - a lower standard of wages, but not worse than that of natives (14111). Witness disputes Mr. Evans' statement that £3 to £3 10s. is the general wage for a machinist, the utmost he can earn 'being £2 10s., working 10| hours ' per1 day for five days (14111-14114). A machinist ..... might receive a large wage, but. out of this-he would..... have to pay plain, machinists. .Hopes English will . not' ad>oipt this system of out employees w^hen they...... adopt thdi isiuib-diviision. Thinks Jeiwiish Unions . should be encouraged (14115^14117). Witness attri- butes the bad conditioiis. in the tailoring trade to the alien immigration and to sewing ma,chines, which does all kinds of binding, finery done by hand.. Middlemen oannot afford machinery. The edges of ... 16 coasts can be carded now to one previously (14129-14133). rThinks Jews on arrival are robust (14141). The immigration of aliens checks, the work112 BOYAL COMMISSION OK ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Analysis Lyons, Lewis—continued, of the union, as middlemen prefer non-union im- migrants. Therefore Jews leave the union through, their competition (14142). The outcry is justified Jby (1) sweaters", (2) home farmer, who charge high rents, (3) tand bad type of men, who keep stills and become criminals. Jews themselves are opposed to these, and steps should be taken lagainist them (14143-14153). A labour riot is probable in East End, chiefly in consequence of high rents, 14217- 14221; and witness thinks the j ^wiisih trade union, if better organised, would check greener labour (14154-14156). In bakery trade greeners cb not displace English bakers, because the latter could not do the work done by Jewish bakers. The long hours are the great objection (14157-14158). Jewish natives come into alien unions, but few native Jews are engaged in tailoring (14159-14166). There is a great difficulty in keeping up these alien organisations. Yery few Christians join) the alien tailors' union, but they are not excluded. There are more female native Jews than men in the trade. None except •same in the first class belong to English organisations, as they do not understand Yiddish, and the alien union is carried on in Yiddish (14167-14182). ^ Wit- ness thinks that by disseminating aibroiad in- Yiddish the conditionis of the English labour market good will be done from a deterrent point of view (14183- 14187). He admits that the immigration is now excessive (14190). Employers treat their employees very badly, but cases have been dismissed because the magistrates do not understand Yiddish (14191- 14192). Aliens leave the union 'after money has been spent to secure them privileges, e.g., in the cabinet trade, where £6,000 was spent; and often aliens leave to become in their turn sweating em- ployers (14194-14195). Witness strongly disapproves extending the factory system, because women labour would 'be used .at low wages, and the system en- courages sub-division (14199-14203). Cheap cloth- ing, however, must be made to meet the working classes' requirements (14206). We cannot 'compete with America because we employ female labour. ^ To do so men must work on the sub-division principle. America employs more men than women, and they use machinery extensively (14209-14212). Witness would not 'shut out aliens., but would regulate their •entry, in conjunction with unions (14215-14216). It is a mistake to think that aliens make the cheap class of tailoring. This is done by female native labour, who 'also make- the best class of juveniles', reputed to be the best in the world. There is, there- fore, no fear of losing the trade (14232-14237). Witness makes no complaint if aliens will work with trades unions, except so far as the rent question is concerned (14238-14242). Does not believe the test qualification possible. Suggests that in all con- tracts given out by the Government the Government contractor .should have a scheduled list of prices on the wall or handed out to the workers, so that the English and alien can compete (14243-14249) ; also that an adequate number of inspectors, assisted by workmen having practical knowledge of the trades inspected, should be appointed to enforce a due observance of the law (142S0). But thinks that the remedy really lies with trades unions, which could check immigration if they were, not as> now, thwarte! by members of the Jewish community and Rabbis (14252-14253). Would restrict diseased -people and those of bad character (14256-14259). Witness gave further evidence protesting against certain statements of Mr. Policoff, secretary of the Manchester Tailors' Union, in respect- to the wages of tailors' machinists antl pressers, and to the inconsistency of the evidence of the latter with a bill he published on December 27th, 1902 (21704-21711). MacLeod, Reginald. Registrar-General and head of the Census Depart- ment ; has furnished the statistics respecting foreigners resident on the 1st of April last year. Hi« evidence only relates to London. To ascertain t; e number of foreigners in a district, instructions were given that each occupier should state whether he was a British subject, naturalised British subject, or foreign subject. In the absence of any definite in- formation, all persons bearing apparently British names, and stating to be born in any foreign country except the United States, were to be considered as MacLeod, Reginald -continued. ; British subjects. (N.B.—The United States were ex- cepted by reason of the difficulty of differentiating between a British sounding name in the United States and in this country.) The result of an examination of a certain portion of the schedules of the East of London was that out of a total of 4,443 persons, abstracted, 2,114 neglected to* fulfil the instructions. Of these 2,114, 1,930 were allocated to the foreign list and 184 to the British (475-494). This absence of information must be attributed chiefly to ignorance. The different trades in the London County area not particularised in each district (551). Special details only worked out in respect of foreigners in London, Lancashire, and Yorkshire. In the case of the two latter counties returns similar to those for London will be made. The Census return does not give the total number of foreigners in the United: Kingdom (555-557). A comparison of the proportion of foreign females over 15 who are engaged in occupations, with a proportion of foreign males, and the proportions of males and females respectively of the whole popula- tion, shows the following result: — per cent. Females (foreigners) over 15 engaged ^ in occupation - - - - 36 Males (foreigners) over 15 engaged in occupation.....94 Females (general population) - - 41 Males (general population) - - 93) (557-560). Children born of foreign parents in England are not counted as foreigners, but as British subjects. To show how largely the figures of the Census are influ- enced in the direction of minimising the number of those who*, in spite of their English nationality, do in reality swell the alien population, Mr. McLeod has cited certain test figures. He has dealt with 1,038: schedules signed by foreigners as the occupiers dwell- ing within St. George-in-the-East, sub-district St. George North, mainly inhabited by Russians and Poles. In London. — Stated to be born in the British Isles. Stated to be born Abroad. Total Children o£ Alien Parents. 1,038 schedules signed by foreigners. Under 15 and over 15. 1,590 236 3,647 5,475 (of whom 1,828 are abstracted as British subjects). (565).. Regarding these figures as test figures, we find that 57,535 children born of alien parents, but abstracted as British subjects, must be added to the number of foreigners abstracted in London, thus increasing the total from 135,377 to 194,398 (562-572). As confirma- tory of the fact that large numbers of the younger generation are not enumerated as aliens is the follow- ing table provided by Mr. McLeod: — Total Foreign Population (as abstracted.) Under 15. 15 to 45. 9'8 72*7 Total General Population. Under 15. 15 to 45. 29*9 51*2 (573-577). Total Foreign Population (as abstracted.) The accuracy of the Census depends upon the enumerators, who have strict instructions. Evasions by change of name or otherwise do not come under the notice of the Registrar-General. There is a penalty for making a wrong return, but it is never enforced (578-593).A^A£iYS|S,. 113 MacLeod, Reginald—corrtzriued\ rj^e. -oltreipow^iiig- m Stepney is shown by a referSncfe to' Table 20, page? 60 (London County Census Returii),' which shows, riot taking into account those who singly occupy a room, that 31,438 persons reside in 10,201 one-room tenements, the average number to" each tenement being three; and that 65,664 persons reside in 15,104 two-room tenements, the average number to each tenement being four. On comparing CH^lsea with Stephey, and dealing with the figures in the s&ihe way, we find that 4,591 persons reside in 1,794- one-rooin tenements, the average number being two^ and that 11,318 persons reside in 3,223 two-room tenements, the average being three (594-607-619). N.B.—A reference to page 11 in the Summary ot the Blue Book will show that the proportion of tenements with less than five rooms in different parts of London Shows marked variations, but this has no direct bearing upon the population, as may be seen in the fact that i|i Finsbury, which has the largest percentage, namely, 81*1, the number of single rooms occupied by four persons is 648} whereas in Stepney the number is 1,734. Mr. McLeod will furnish further statistics relating to overcrowding in October (622-627). (2) the following facts with reference to the neces- sary inaccuracy of the Census returns were elicited in examination: — Overcrowding. (a) The statement of the occupier is final (631). (b) The enumerator has no power to verify except by question (632). .(c) He may not pay a midnight visit (637). Nationality. Mr. McLeod has stated that he received at the Census period much help from Dr. A&ler, who pub- lished explanatory "statements, in Yiddish, explaining the objects and procedure of the Census. 36* Mansfield, Charles. Head teacher of Settle Street Board School (18386). Describes growth of the Settle Street school: first period, 1874-1881, composed of Christians and Jews; second period, 1881-1892, Christians gradually ousted by Jews, when school passed through a transitional state; third period, 1892-1902, composed mainly of, Jews, children chiefly of foreign parents; in 1902 being 97 per cent, of the total number. Christian children in the district go to the Whitechapel school, St. Mary's. All the schools in the district are com- posed mainly of Jewish children. The reports of the inspectors are very satisfactory since 1893. Witness describes characteristics of the children, and how after a time the children of foreign parents, mentally and physically improve (18388-18398). (See also report, par. 144.) The large attendance proves that the children are healthy (18408-18409). The Roumanian, Jewish, and Polish Jewish children appear the least intelligent (18421). But it is remarkable how quickly the foreign children improve (18422-18427). Many suffer from defective sight, more so than native chil- dren (18428-18438). Not from disease, but from short- sightedness (18439-18442). Marston, William. Is the representative of the Leeds branch of the Amalgamated Society of Tailors, of which he has been secretary tor 62 years (14260-14261) ; is a member of the Leeds City Council, and chairman of the Clothing Committee (14263-14264). Is a journeyman tailor, and works as an artisan (14265-14268). Leeds is the centre of the cheap ready-made clothing industry ; large firms have migrated there from elsewhere, partly because it is near Brad- lord, which produces cheap worsteds. Leeds is, to a small extent, still a cloUi manufacturiiig district ; it also manufactures cheap tweeds (14209- 14277). Large tailoring factories are in Leeds em- ploying 2,2uu downwards ; native iemaie labour is almost} exclusively employed ; a large amount odt juvenile clothing is made in unregistered workshops, almost exclusively by women (14278-14284). In factories, trousers, waistcoats, and the entire juvenile suits are made, almost entirely by native labour; but the coats when cut are sent to Jewish workshops, where male English-born and alien Jews exclusively work, with a. few English women (14285-14292). There are 297 tailors' workshops in Leeds, pf which 180 are occupied by Jews; Jews are also employed in native workshops; some are English Jews, but they are largely aliensi (14293-14301). The Union has no! objec- tion to Jews in workshops; there is no sweating in the well-managed Jewish workshops, due to Jewish trade unions, which work harmoniously with English unions (14302-14310). Outside the unions sweating and bad oonditionsi are found, helped also by alien inflow (14311-14312). Grievance really commences with be- spoke business ; orders for " specials " (see also 14361) are secured by travellers of factories, principally tweed suits; they are brought to the factories, but the coats are made in Jewish workshops at greatly reduced prices; thus within 30 years the number of workpeople has sunk from 550 to 250; on the other hand in Belfast there are 800, and Newcastle 500 to 600, both towns much smaller than Leeds, this being due to aliens having no real footing in these towns; in Leeds the wages remain stationary, where- as_in all other towns they have advanced (14313- 14o20). Cheapness, in the bespoke trade is attained by subdivision of labour and by sweating, to which the natives and English Jews are equally opposed (14322-14326). Witness estimates the whole Jewish population (including English Jews) at 15,000 as a minimum (14327-14334). The constant replacement of one set of greeners by another set is the cause of the evil of sweating, and of bad conditions of. living (14336-14339). The overcrowding of the aliens will be^ checked by the clearing of 60 acres of ground, chiefly occupied by the Jews, by the Leeds City Council, but they will still necessarily live together (14340-14342). The union is opposed to the sub- division of labour, holding that it cheapens labour ; the native makes the garment throughout; sub- division produces cheapness1, but the witness does not approve of cheapness, which lowers the standard of living ; nor does he think the consumer benefits, on the ground that " cheap and nasty " are synonymous ; and subdivision encourages greeners to come over to be sweated (14343-14356). The entry into the bespoke business of the Jews has led to home work, which, Analysis.114 BOYAL COMMISSION Ott ALlENf IMMIGRATION 1 Analysis. Marston, William—continued. ----because unsupervised, leads to sweating ; home work also leads to underselling, a Jew taking a sample coat round, and offering to make one at a reduced price (14357-14360). Sometimes Jewish employers supply money for greeners to come (14362-14363). Contract work produces cheapness through competition, but if the standard rate of wage is observed, the union has no objection to contract. The contract, £2,000, for the Leeds police lias been taken from the East End of London to Leeds, and is being made under im- proved conditions (14364-14368). Witness sum- marises his evidence respecting the factories and the ready-made clothing industry, the infusion of the Jews into the bespoke business, etc. (14369-14386 and 14439-14456). Thinks! the immigration should be regulated, not prohibited ; as in the United States and South Africa, the infirm should be excluded, and men of bad character, who are increasingly coming in (14387-14392 and 14426-14427). The clear- ing of the insanitary area will take a long time ; and the Local Government Board require that provision be made for two-thirds of the diplaced; active measures are taken to clear insanitary areas, and. the inspectors prevent overcrowding as far as possible, but owing to an inability to find accommodation for the displaced the law is not very strictly applied at present ; the overcrowding is greatly caused by the alien immigration; aliens largely own tenement houses (14393-14409). (No attempt has been made by the Corporation to rehouse, as private builder® under- take this task; the land is either sold, or streets are widened (14416-14425). The aliens are largely in excess of the requirements of the tailors' trade in Leeds; if they were absent more female machinists would be em- ployed (14410-14415). Cutting is done in the factory ; sewing, pressing, and putting the various parts to- gether in the workshop (14455-14457). There are many unemployed in Leeds, about 3,000 to 4,000, chiefly in thei ironware trade ; also in the tailoring, but more so in the shoe trade (14458-14462). Wages have fallen in the tailoring trade ; by new regulations an account of trade prices for piecework is kept in factories, but they are continually being reduced (14463-14466). A coat, because made by an alien in a workshop, is inferior to trousers made by a native in a factory (14468-14471). Martin, John Wessley. Formerly Mayor of Reading (19793). Has very favourable opinion of Jews in the town, who are prin- cipally in the tailoring trade ; their wages are good ; they congregate together, but do not overcrowd. They give no trouble to the police, send their children regu- larly to school, and do not come on the rates (19797). They number about 300, 50 per cent, being Russian Jews. They have slightly increased since 1901 (19798- 19801). There are also 44 Italians and about 100 French in Reading (19802-19805). Many tailors on their arrival were very raw (see also 19834-19839). They supply the country round with cheap clothes (19806-19816). Witness has heard no complaints about them, and thinks there is scope for many more (19817-19830). The increase of rents in Reading, 7 or 8 per cent., is not due to the aliens (19853). Mather, Samuel. Divisional Superintendent of the Tower Hamlets Division of -the School Board for London, which com- prises the Borough of Stepney and Poplar (10275- 10278). In the division there are five purely Jewish schools, under Jewish management, accommodating 6,180 children (see list, 10281-10282). Besides these there are sixteen schools, practically Jewish, observ- ing the Jewish holidays, with Jews on the manage- ment (see list, 10284). The Old Castle Street Board School, in Whitechapel, being unsuccessful on the Christian system, was placed by the board oni the Jewish system, with a Jew as headmaster, and filled (10291). Russian visitors are appointed to translate the certificates of ages, etc., of the children (10294- 10296). In a third group there are 2,601 Jewish children (see list 10303). In a fourth group, the National schools, which are the Church schools, there are 1,628 Jewish children (see list 10304-10305). In the St. Stephen's Church school, Spitalfields, three- .fourths are Jewish, and it is conducted on a Jewish system so far as they are concerned (10305-10306). In Division I. there is one, sometimes more, Jewish teachers (10308). The Jewish children prefer the Mather, Samuel—continued. Board schools to th# National schools (3K>315-10317). Out of 98,000 children, in the whole division, about 25,000 are Jewish (10321). Of the Jewish children rather more than one-third are foreign-born (10322- 10328). A few Roman Catholics attend the German Roman Catholic school (10331). The Jews are anxious to send their children to school until they are able to work, about the age of thirteen (10337-10341). Their numbers have been increasing largely, the popu- lation having entirely changed during the last 24 years, as is shown by the census taken by the Board each year (10346-10355 and 10379-10382) ; see also re Census (10395-10407). The Board experiences a great difficulty in the Jews' propensity to change their names (10356). The Jewish children are above the average in brain power, always wishing to rise (10359- 10361). The great defect of the alien Jewish parents is a want of truth (10361*). A bitter feeling is caused by the displacement, which can only be remedied by the substitution of model dwellings (by private persons as an enterprise, 10409-10411) for the oner-storied houses, as has been done in Spitalfields by the Jews for their people ; or by the dispersion of the immi- grants into the country, by the Government, or, better, by the Jewish Board of Guardians (10362- 10377 and 10412-10435). The necessity to build schools involves the demolition of houses, which means increased overcrowding (10378-10388). It would be very beneficial to proclaim an overcrowded district (10445). Matthews, William Charles. School Board Visitor for T. and U. blocks, in the Hackney division (see 10545-10546); in Bethnal Green for 16 years (10500-10503) ; has to ensure the attendance of children at school, and report to the police for non-attendance (10504-10505). Nothing alien immigration about ten years ago, and that it has noticeably increased during the last four years in the overflow districts (10506-10508); gives detailed instances of displacement by aliens in certain streets (10509-10524). About one-third of the children in the sub-division are Jewish aliens, a few being Polish Christians (10525-10526). The Jewish children are flocking into the Board schools (10527-10537). The feeling is growing very bitter, and manifesting itseli in action (10538-10541). McConnell, W. R., k.c. Chairman of County of London Sessions (i.e., the County of London); has prepared a note showing number of cases in which foreigners have been in- dicted during 12 months, which must be regarded as a rough estimate, as many foreigners change their names (12701-12702). Yiddish-speaking portion, are chiefly in East End, but witness has in his jurisdiction colonies of Germans in Tottenham Court Road dis- trict, French in Soho, Italians in Saffron Hill and Clerkenwell (12703). Has noticed recent growth of colonies of organised foreign gangs all over London (12704-12706 and 12796-12797). About 2,300 persons from both north and south of Thames were committed for trial in the two courts during 1902 (representing one-fifth of indictable offences tried in England), 249 of whom were foreigners, viz. : — Russians and Poles - - 107 including Russian and Austrian Poles, all Yiddish speaking people. - 59 - 31 - 29 - 23 249 or about 10 per cent. Of persons tried on the north side of the Thames the proportion of foreigners was as follows, showing a steady increase: — In 1892 - - 1,627 - 116 aliens or 7 per cent. „ 1900 - - - 1,722 - 185 „ „ 11 „ „ „ 1902 - - - 1,896 - 249 „ „ 13 „ „ But the percentage is much less on the south side, not exceeding 2 per cent., there being no extensive colonies in South London (12707-12726 and 12745- 12748). Offences are now more serious, burglary, house-breaking, and stealing from dwelling-houses in- Germans - Italian French - Miscellaneous -ANALYSIS. 115 McConnell, W. R., K;C.—'Continued* creasing; cases of wounding and assault are rare, but more common among the Italians; burglary, house- breaking, theft, are more common amongst Germans, especially German waiters, who easily procure false characters, and' use special tools (12727-12735). Italians are becoming more addicted to offences against property, but their cases are generally con- nected with brawls (12736-12738). The Yiddish criminal always pleads not guilty, and applies for the services of an interpreter (12740-12744 and 19807- 12812). As no special inquiry is made of nationality, some foreigners may not be included in above numbers (12749-12757). Considering the witness deals with the whole of the administrative County of London, and that the English crime is drawn from a source representing millions, the alien crime, coming from a source representing thousands, the proportion to the amount of the latter is much more than is justified by a light percentage of the population (12758-12762). Witness suggests that an alien might give his name on arrival, and be registered if he remains over a stated period, with the object of exercising control and observation over aliens arriving ^ith no means or prospect of employment, but this would not be necessary with transmigrants (12763-12767). Repa- triation of persons of bad character is most desirable (12768-12769 and 12790-12791). Also a careful in- quiry and medical inspection, as in America (12770- 12772). Witness strongly believes in legal restric- tion, after the American system, as crime committed by aliens is certainly increasing, and though cases referred to are charges, yet convictions probably ex- ceed 85 per cent, of indictable offences (12773-12778). Probably a large proportion become criminals after arriving (12779-12881). As every person admitted into a prison is asked his country of origin, the nationality of criminals could be better obtained from prison re- cords : — In 1901. Holloway. Natives. Foreigners. 11,906 412 Pentonville. Natives. Foreigners. 12,830 349 Wandsworth. Natives. Foreigners. 11,757 396 Wormwood Bcrubbs. Natives. 3,749 Foreigners. 210 (12782-12789); but the mere statement of his place of origin at prison would be of small value, (12798-12806). Witness doubts whether many criminals escape through not being understood (12792-12795). Witness admits international difficulty of extraditing all con- victed criminals, but submits it for consideration (12820-12824). Mead,/ Frederick. • One of the magistrates of the Thames Police Court since March, 1890 (10547-10549). In respect to over- crowding, the Public Health Act of 1891 is sufficient for the evil; it is not only remedial, but also punitive —e.g., the nuisance, culminates in a penalty of £10; the sanitary authorities have stopped at a notice ; they have not sufficiently regarded the primary delinquent, viz., the head of the family occupying the room or rooms, who may be called the lodger. Under the Act a private individual making the complaint need give no notice; if he, being the occupier, complains that his sub-tenants are overcrowding, the magistrate gives an order of abatement, when he has received con- firmation from the sanitary authorities, and in the event of its not ceasing grants a summons; what becomes of the lodger ejected it is hard to say; if the room is again overcrowded it is because the Act is not regarded as punitive; the sanitary authorities have only once in 10 years given to the witness the oppor- tunity of fining; witness doubts ihis right to fine if the complaint is made by a private individual; he would not be deterred from giving orders for abate- ment by the fear of driving people into the streets ; a. substantial fine would stop future overcrowding, especially if the offender, being unable to pay, was sent to prison ; only by making the law a deterrent will overcrowding be stopped (10552-10603 and 10814- 6144. Mead, Fkedeeick—continued. 10819). Not only the actual tenant, but everyone " by wtiose default or sutterance, " viz., the landlord of the lodger, or the owner can be made liable (10605). Costs are unnecesary where there is a penalty; they are merely an addition; the magistrate grants & lump sum for costs; whereas the local authority might obtain the actual amount expended by apply- ing for it as a civil debt at the High Court or the County Court (10606-10609). In respect to bye-laws, it is doubtful whether the bye-law authorising in- spection by night is not ultra vires, on the ground that bye-laws cannot add to the law; the right to inspect by night can always be obtained from a magistrate; in witness's opinion the Act being sufficient if the sanitary authorities take the right course, bye-laws are unnecessary (10610-10648). Witness suggests, to obviate the difficulties connected with a nuisance on board a vessel, that the Thames from Gravesend to the docks be considered "premises," that the nuisance may be dealt with under the Public Health Act; and that the Medical Officer of Health should have a general authority granted to him to take pro- ceedings (10649-10665). Witness presents a suggested " Act to restrict the immigration of undesirable aliens" (10667-10780). V/ ltness compares his suggested Act with the Australian law (10782- 10792). In respect to overcrowding, as the mischief has been allowed to go, the measures at first should not be too violent; the nuisance should be gradually removed (10820-10825). Where they 'go when dishoused for overcrowding must depend, upon themselves; they will become absorbed, and the knowledge that overcrowding is punished will keep many from coming (10826-10834). Witness does not suggest expatriation for crime committed in this country (10843-10851). Would not close a congested district (10857-10858). Has not seen any sign of feelings towards the aliens on the part of the English (10869-10870). In the event of turning out for over- crowding, witness would give reasonable time; the responsibility of finding room would rest on the hebd of the family ; if lie cannot they must go to the Poor Law (10871-10875). The law must be enforced with- out consideration of the circumstance's of the people proceeded against (10879-10880). Overcrowding always produces a lower sanitary level (10881-10885). The hardship through a strict enforcement of the law would be more apparent than real (10886). Moens, William John Charles, f.s.a. Vice-President and ex-President of the Huguenot Socicty of London; is of Dutch Huguenot descent. Is author of many works in relation to the aliens who have migrated into this country (23062-23064). Divides the existence of aliens in England into two periods—before the Reformation and afterwards. Before the Reformation they consisted almost en- tirely of Low Country men from the Netherlands, being chiefly weavers. A few came from Genoa and Lombardy, bringing the system of banking. The weavers went principally to Pembrokeshire, some to Northampton and Norwich. All these aliens, being Roman Cotholics, became blended in the native popu- lation (23067-23075). Those who came after the Re- formation were flying from religious persecution, be- ing members of the Reformed Church. In the time of the Emperor Charles Y. many came ; more came to England in the reign of Edward VI., who showed them great favour. Queen Mary dispersed them, but under Elizabeth they returned. These aliens came chiefly from Flanders, Brabant, and Hainault (23076-23082). They followed the weaving baize (a fine sort of cloth) (2313), silk fabrics, and new linen, etc. (called " new and outlandish goods"), trades. They settled principally in Yarmouth and Sandwich, and to a great extent in London. In 1540 one-third of the taxpayers in London were foreigners, being all handicraftsmen (23109-23112), as proved by the subsidy rolls. In the precincts of St. Martin's-le- Grand there were six Englishmen to 204 strangers (23085-23106). In Henry VIII.'s time a restrictive Act was passed, depriving aliens of the right to be householders, but it was in abeyance, as London became very overcrowded. Steps were taken ii* Elizabeth's time to scatter them; the Walloon and French weavers went to Glastonbury, and intro- duced their special makes into the West of England. They were dispersed in the reign of Mary, and did Q Analysis.116 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Moens, William John Charles, f.s.a.—continued. not return. In 1567 the-Walloon and French silk weavers came to Canterbury, and a Dutch settlement , was formed at Maidstone, and a large colony of Dutch and Walloons at Norwich. In 1580 Colchester was almost a colony of Flemings. The Walloons alsoj • migrated to Southampton. At this time also the| Dutch migrated to Great Yarmouth, King's Lynn, Thetford, Stamford, and Canvey Island (23116-23146). The foreigners came to London, and were dispersed by order of the Council (23148-23152). The foreigners were not allowed to settle in England unless they be- longed to the churches of the Foreign Reformed Church (23153-23154). In 1568 all aliens were cer- tified, lists being drawn up stating their country, •condition, the number of their wives, children, and servants when they came, and to what church they belonged. In 1614 Commissioners were appointed to register their names, the " Commission for the Regu- lation of the Strangers" (23155-23156). Several statutes exist from the time of Richard II. with re- gard to aliens, but they were really dependent on the will of the Crown ; they were always obliged to belong to some church (23157-23161). All strangers having lands and goods had to pay double subsidies and Custom duties, those over 12 years not worth 20s. worth of goods being taxed at 8d. each ; they also paid the parish poor rate and cess rate, and one penny in'the shilling on the rents of their houses, from which the natives were exempt. No strangers were allowed to lodge other strangers, and to prevent them sending bullion out of the country the official "host "'had 2d. in the £ on the purchase and sale of all their transactions and goods. They could only ■sell their goods wholesale in their trade hall in towns, and not at all in villages, market towns, and com- mon fairs in England. Aliens might buy or sell amongst themselves. These restrictions also existed after the Reformation ; they are found in the various town archives (23162-23176). Witness gives a long list of the trades followed by aliens, and concludes : u Nearly all our chief trades have been made by these men" (23178-23183). The support of the alien poor was cast upon the alien community (23193). Witness suggests that a poll tax of 2s. 6d. should be levied upon aliens over 12 years of age (23194 and 23202- 23209). Montagu, Sir Samuel, Bart. Ex-M.P. for Whitechapel, has worked in chari- table institutions in East of London most of his life, and has formed the Jewish Dispersion Com- mittee (16766-16770). Is also--President of the Fede- ration, of Synagogues (see also 16891-16894), repre- senting about 24,000 persons, the object of which is • to get rid of insanitary places of worship by process of amalgamation ; 39 are in the Federation, the num- ber of male seat-holders being 4,391; are chiefly in East London. The Dispersion Committee is a part of the work formed at a. conference in May, 1902; 42 or 43 provincial congregations were represented, and it was agreed to settle the aliens in small congrega- tions—not in large, but small provincial towns, from London (16771-16777). Deals only with those who have been here a year or two. Lends money to head of family, who goes first to< find work, without interest. Hitherto scheme has been fairly successful, but is not ' being worked very actively in view of possibility of legislation v. overcrowding, which would greatly assist the scheme (16778-16785). Some have been sent to Reading ais tailors chiefly, also> as boot lasters and cap-makers, on application from employers, and with consent of the congregations. Ten families have been sent to Leicester. Stipulation is made that they receive Union rate of wages (16786-16794). Witness has visited Jews on the Continent, where persecuted, and sent them to America. A fund was raised in 1882, as a result of a meeting at the Mansion House', which witness distributed, persuading emigrants to' go direct to America. Has found them afterwards flourishing {16795-16801). The Jews in the East of London are orderly, loyal, and thrifty, and are clean from religious observances (16802-16811). A Slaughtering Board Com- mittee licenses retail butchers who kill according to the Jewish rites. - Witness gives statistics1 of Jewish consumption (16812-16820). In the East End there are 170 to 180 butchers. The Jews live well, especially on the Sabbath (16821-16825). The alien Jewish ques- tion is purely a, local one (16828). The immigrants liave introduced the cheap clothing trade, and the Montagu, Sir Samuel, Bart.—continued. cheap furniture and cabinet making, for home and for export, abolishing the second-hand trade (16329- 16837). The attendance at the synagogues, especially on the Day of Atonement, gives a fair estimate of Jewish population; 26,071 males attended September, 1901. The number of Passover biscuits distributed in 1902 gratis to the poorest shows that pauperism has not increased over previous years. (16838-16855). The character of the neighbourhood has greatly improved (16858). The children become Anglicised rapidly in their habits and language (16859-16860). The Jewish Sabbath makes it difficult for J ews to take to agricul- ture (16861-16862). The dispersion scheme will remedy overcrowding if legislation is put into force. Many Jews work in London and live in the suburbs (16863- 16864). Witness thinks the immigration will diminish as greater clemency is shown to the J ews by the Czar (16865-16866). Doubts that American legislation is preventive. There are about 1,000,000 Jews in the United States (16867-16869 and 16884-16890). The Dis- persion Committee lias dealt during the last two or three months with 46 families. Their difficulty is to induce the men to move ; require the enforcement of the sanitary law to assist them; thus the East End would become merely a receiving and distributing area (16870-16876 and 16896-16903). The physically and mentally disqualified might be excluded, but the number of the ports and the: short passage would render action difficult (16880-16883). Could not dis- perse men immediately on arrival through their ig- norance of the language, but many have pone on their own account to Not ting Hill, where there isi a synagogue', and where there are tailoring; establish- ments (16907-16913). Extreme destitution is seldom seen amongst Jews. The failures are repatriated (16914-16920). The Jews have contributed to the dispersing of the active criminal classes from White- chapel. Of course, some new-comers are of bad character (16921-16925). Two-thirds of London Jewis are in the East End (16926-16927). Jewish butchers, of course, supply them principally (16928-16931). A similar Dispersion Society exists, in New York and several of the seaports. The Jews in New York have improved, and selfishly wish to prevent immigration, as shown bv the United Hebrew Charities report for 1901. but witness thinks that the Jews have leas opportunities of development in America than in Eng- land, because of the Sunday restrictions, new arrivals refusing to> work on Sundays. But immigration to some place continues, though persecution is not active now in Russia. The report also refers to Roumanian Jews in Canada, many of whom are undesirable (16935-16962). The circumstances of distance and of the many means of arrival make restriction difficult (16963-16964). Enforcement of the law will give the only necessary impetus for dispersion to relieve the congestion (16967-16970). Witness has not come across any bitterness of feeling (16971). Comparison of total population, according to Census 1871, 1881, 1891 (16976-16980). The Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter, the Joint Committee of the Board of Guardians, and the Russo-Jewish Committee, Emigration Societies, and recent organisations exist for dispersion, and would act in alliance with any State regulations made, e.g., proclamation of a special district (16981-16990). Voluntary and paid officials would assist' registration of aliens arriving (16993-16998). Alien colonies can only be promoted by starting factories, which the committee are in treaty for now. There must be a centre of the language and of the people to allow others to come, which is the object of the Dispersion Committee (16999-17002). The demand from the em- ployers outside is in excess of the supply of alien labour, as London wages are better. The committee desire to disperse generally, not making ghettos in the provinces, therefore avoids Leeds. It does not send new arrivals (1700'3-17012). Witness would exclude criminals, prostitutes, and diseased, but there would be difficulties, e.g., diversion of traffic. The proba^ bilitv of other than criminals being refused passports. They might, however, bring certificates from their native towns, obtained from the Rabbis, as done with regard to Canada and Argentina, (17071-17073). Pho- tography will be of use, or finger prints, to prevent substitution, and detention at the port of arrival for identification. Criminality (17019-17037). Only steerage passengers need be photographed. Criminals, however, are not necessarily steerage. Overcrowding is the great cause of the increase in immoral crimi-ANALYSIS. 117 jVLontagxt, Sir Samuel, Bart.—continued. nality (17039-17050). Greener should not be included in the class of -undesirables (17051-17053). With re- gard to overcrowding, all concerned in the property should be liable to be fined (17055). Witness would prefer to close a small area of a district, than a whole district, which should be done by some' Government Board or County Council (17036-17061). Disputes might be referred to domestic tribunal, and wages dis- putes! of individual cases not controlling the whole trade (17062-17070). Witness regards ill-feeling of the natives in Stepney to a. great extent as, artificial (17074- 17078). The smallest increase of comfort in .Russia would keep Jews there. They only appreciate Eng- lish freedom on their arrival; many come over un- willingly 5 and a knowledge of the inconveniences of overcrowding and of the enforcement of the laws against it would deter many (17079-17038). Mil. A. < A shoemaker (33o7), who declined to give his name and address, was born at Podambitz, in Ku&siaxi Poland, and has been in England. 13 years (335b-33t>0). Came over because he knew of countrymen oi his who had emigrated to this country, and m a very short time were able to siend considerable, sums of money to their friends ; especially an oid man, who m a, lew months sent over £30 (3361-3365 and 3400). Witness made his way from Poland tx> a town on tin© German frontier, and from there took the train to Hamburg. Paid five roubles for a pass to cross over into' Ger- many, which is only .available for a fortnight at most, at the end of which time tihe holder is required to return. This he secured at Kairlioh, the first town from the frontier, which is 1U or 11 Russian miles from Podambitz. With this exception, he had no papers, amd was asked no questions during his jour- ney (537U-3390, 3401-3407). Did not buy this piaisis from tihe police, but from some of his own people, who make a living in that way, and have a, privilege to give a pa,s® across tihe borders. They go to the sta- tion and take o-ut a pass, not intending to go over themselves, but to do a little business; m that way. Witness, another man, and a female crossed together, and paid 15 roubles between them, and the people from whom they bought the passes supplied tihem with a pony and trap to take them to the frontier, and when they arrived at the. station, tihe driver de- manded the passes from them, and then handed tihem to anotlheir man, who, when the card is over, returns it to (the .police, authorities and gets another. A policeman asked them several questions before allow- ing them to crossi over. The carmen then took them to the first German station, and from there they booked to Hamburg, and then to England by ship, talcing their tickets from the shipping company (339i- 3399). On arriving in London a large number of Ms people had their relatives to meet them, but there was no one to meet him, and he followed the others off the ship. He then sought a friend whose address he had, but found that he had gone to America ; he was therefore alone in London, standing in the street- with his parcel, and only possessing about 4d. in Eng- lish money (3408-3415). Foreigners; gathered round him, and asked him questions, and, on learning that he was a bootmaker, took him round to a finisher in the same street, who asked him if he had any money, but made no remark on seeing how much he had. Some men then took him to the Jewish Shel- ter, 84, Leman Street, where he stayed nine or ten days, finding employment during the first week (3416- •3419). Describes the years of struggle he had to earn a living, and the way he was sweated by foreigners, and gives evidence) regarding high rents (3420-3531). Very few foreigners arrive with any money (3546). MrLVANEY, John, Has been Chief 'Superintendent of the " H " Divi- sion for last 65 years (8222-8223). The boundaries of this division are as follows : —From the City Boundary through by Norton Folgate, High Street, Shoreditch, Hackney Road to Warner Place in Hackney Road thence by Squirries Street and White Street, and across Beithnial Green Road into White- chapel Road and) Mile End! Road to the Regent's Canal, and so on to the Thames. This area, in- cludes the whole of Stepney, with the addition of bits of Shoreditch, Hackney, and Bethnal Green. •6144 Mulvaney, John—continued. Analysis* Its area is a little over two square miles (8224-8228). Since appointment has noticed a large increase of foreigners displacing the English population (8229- 8231). Certain streets are wholly colonised by foreigners. Has made a list of 107 in Stepney which during six years have altogether changed the popu- lation from native, consisting principally of dock labourers, to foreign (8232-8239). Six years ago 84 of these streets were occupied by people of good character, 17 by people of bad character being full of disorderly houses and filled by the criminal class, and six of doubtful character (8240-8243). The foreign increase was very marked during the last two or three years, but the change in the 107 streets ■has been a gradual one during the last seven years (8244-8248). The inhabitants of the 17 bad streets have left, their houses having been taken by tailors, boot and shoe makers not belonging to the disre- putable class. (8249-8252). The character of the other streets remains about the same (8253). The dis- orderly houses have decreased in the neighbourhood generally owing to the London County Council having closed the dancing places in Rat-cliff' Highway. Some resorts of thieves, however, still remain (8254- 8257). Knows nothing with reference to any change- in the ownership of houses (8258-8259). Has pre- pared a table from the -charge books at the police stations giving an account of the crimes, charged from 1892 to 1901. (See table annexed.) The nationality of the person charged is always, desig- nated, being ascertained by inquiry (8260-8267). A distinction is made in the case of eostermongers between those charged and those summoned, because one would not be charged unless he refused his name and address, but for purposes of the Commission the charges and summonses may be added together as showing the obstruction in the streets (8271-8275). For crimes of violence in 1892 55 British and 7 foreigners were charged. In 1901 40 British and 29 foreigners, showing a large proportionate increase amongst foreigners. For burglary and housebreak- ing 50 British and 4 foreigners in 1892, and in 1901 65 British and 18 foreigners. For robbery and larceny in 1892 935 British and 135 foreigners, and in 1901 696 British and 181 foreigners. For hawk- ing illicit spirits or working stills in 1899 18 foreigners were charged, no British; and in 1900 7 foreigners were charged, and no British. 1901, 1 British and 3 foreigners. This crime has un- doubtedly been introduced by foreigners. In 1894 4 British were charged, but they were probably persons of foreign origin. The crime is not known in other parts of London (8277-8289). Hawking illicit spirits or working stills are charged on war- rants issued at the instance of the Inland Revenue- Authoritioy (8290). 'For obstruction by coster- mongers in 1892 2 British and 2 foreigners were charged. In 1901 8 British and 152 foreigners were charged. In 1892 13 British and 16 foreigners were summoned, and in 1901 74 British and 375 foreigners. The great increase is due to foreigners. So long as the coster moves on, unless he is in a; recognised market place, he is not interfered with, but costers are spreading themselves all over the borough. In the neighbourhood of St. James' Street, William Street, and Langdale Street, though no special instructions were issued, a constable was appointed in 1899 to regulate and enforce the laws (Query owing to the decision of Regina v. Francis,. 8295). But the number has not been diminished' in the. main streets, though many are turned into- bye-streets, the evil is increasing. No remedy can be effected because of the lack of space to create a market (8291-8303). For keeping gambling houses. none were charged till 1896, when one British sub- ject and 4 foreigners were charged. In 1901 7 British and 8 foreigners were charged. These gamb- ling houses are of a very low class, mostly frequented by low foreigners who are much addictedi to gambling (8304-8313). The figures do not represent the number of complaints, which would be about 356. The com- plaints were not acted uponi because of difficulty of understanding the language and so getting sufficient information, and also because a large number were anonymous. In 1901 the, principals repre- sent the persons charged. In a raid on a club Q 2IIS- ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION Axa ly," i> MuLVANBY, J OHN— continued. Qofe S-ti'eet- in 1895, 23 English Jews*. 8- Russians, 1 Austrian, 1 Greek, and 19 Germans were arrested. In a raid on a club in Christian Street, 33 Germans were arrested. In a club in Mile End Old Town 9 Poles, 10 Russians, 2 Austrians, and 1 Hungarian were arrested. The difficulty of the language would not b® remedied by having an officer who understands Yiddish, because he would be known. If a German-speaking officer is required he is supplied, but no officer speatks Yiddish. The foreign criminal, therefore, does enjoy an advantage over the British criminal (8369- 8399 and 8487-8493). The language difficulty is in connection with gambling-house cases and with costermongers (8509-8512). There is a good deal of street betting, but there are no forms for this crime (8312 and 8368). In 1892 331 British and 13 foreign disorderly prostitutes were charged. In 1901 222 British and 52 foreigners were charged. The foreign prostitutes have increased with the population, but the figures must not be taken as regards prostitution, but as regards disorderly prostitutes (8314-8318). The English drink more and are more disorderly (8461-8471). The increase is not due to greater police activity (8319-8320). The full strength of the " H " force is 571, namely, 25 inspectors, 57 sergeants, 488 rank and file (see the report of the Commissioner of Police), the area being two miles (8321-8324). The conduct of the aliens is generally good, particularly as to sobriety. At .first they are dirty, but then they improve. They live on smaller means of subsistence than the English. Women are very industrious. The relative increase of foreign prostitutes is due to the fact that the English have gone elsewhere. The foreign are not imported ; they become so in England from some cause or other (8326-8338). The aliens are not more immoral than the English (8502- 8503). The alien costermonger is more difficult to manage, principally because of his language, and also because hei is more grasping and aggressive (8339- 8342). (N.B.—There is an interpreter in Court, .and, if necessary, at the police station (8404-8406);) The increase in the number of costermongers is in- jurious to shopkeepers, who are themselves mostly foreigners (8343). They mostly congregate in Westworth Street and Middlesex Street, John Street, Samuel Street, Langdale Street, William Street, and James Street (8345-8347). A great many foreign criminals come to reside in the district (8348) (but they^ must be considered apart .from the alien immigrants, 8500). Great dissatisfaction is shown amongst the British, but a serious breach of th$ peace is not apprehended. The district has practi- cally become a foreign colony (8349-8356). In 1899 there was a small disturbance, but no actual breach of the peace, in Cornwall Street. The displaced, who feel intensely their position, have gone (8358- 8360). The magistrates have remarked on the in- crease of criminal immigrants (8361-8364). Immorality amongst aliens compares favourably with any other section of the community (8365). The great majority of those summoned for various offences have been convicted (8401-8402). The district is less criminal than it was ten years ago (8409-8410). (N.B.— Witness also describes the general criminal condi- tion as stationary (8494), and again as improved (8501). A greater proportion of our foreign criminals are such before they arive, and it would be a great advantage to compel shipping companies to take them back (8411-8416). The population of the " H " Division may, according to the Census return, be taken as 240,000 natives and 60,000 foreigners, the latter not including children born of foreign parents (8424- 8433). A man's statement as to his nationality and occupation is accepted, and also as to his name. Therefore no really accurate figures can be compiled distinguishing Englishmen from foreigners. For- eigners may be described as British, but no British as foreigners (8434-8443). The disreputable streets pre- viously described improved owing to County CounciPs action before aliens arrived. The local authorities and local philanthropist also contributed to this end (844.5-8453). After improvement they were occupied by English workmen who have been dis- placed during the last four or five years by foreigners. They were therefore not improved by aliens. The Mulvaney, John—continued. improvement was- contemporaneous with that all over London (8454-8460). The English coster lias greatly suffered, and, indeed, now hardly exists, having been ousted by the alien. The costers are driven into side streets, and new markets are created. They are summoned, and a special constable is ap- pointed, e.g., in Samuel Street, but an enormous and increasing number make a living in the street (8472-8486). There are Austrians, Russians, Poles, a few Portuguese, many Germans in the area of H Division, but the Russians and Polish Jews pre- dominate (8504-8507). Referring to Alderman Silver's reference to congestion caused by foreign costers and his suggestion of bribery. Witness stated that the houses in these streets are very small ones wihich have been converted into shops by the foreigners; that there are barrows in these streets, but no stalls; that the police are very active in this district, but he does not believe they take bribes, although they are continually offered (2651 and 2848- 2849). The number of summonses disproves the accusation (8514-8518). The illicit still business is looked after by the Inland Revenue. It is encour- aged by the gambling houses, and very difficult to detect (8519-8524). Mtjrfin, Joe. Secretary of the Sheffield Branch of the Amalga- mated Society of Tailors, the membership of which fluctuates from 170 to 250 (14707-14708). There are no factories in Sheffield, the tailoring in Sheffield being bespoke, on the employers' premises (14707-14713). Witness divides bespoke trade into: First class, which employs all Englishmen; second class, which employs English tailors, with the assistance of machinery; in this class alien labour is encroaching at lower rates, because the system of sub-division is adopted (N.B.—Witness disapproves of sub-division ; it reduces price, and also because it causes sweating by out-contracting) ; and third class, which is the cheapest bespoke trade, in which sub-division is en- tirely adopted, and foreign labour employed. These therefore secure Corporation orders by offering at a lower figure a garment of equally is that of the general population, and this is morel re- markable, considering the crowded condition in which the poorer Jews live. Does not doubt that the' pub- lie-house is: .a very distinct element m the propaga- ' tioai of phthisis. The Jewish population do not drink much ; therefore escapes this: danger (21749-21754, see -also 21825). The children, are strong and vigorous (21757), and, as a. class, the Jewish parents are keener r in favour of vaccination (21758-21761). The Jewish Niyen, Dr. James, m.a., m.b.—continued. Analysis population i® about 25,000 (21762-21763) ; they feed -- well as far' as their meanis« will allow the house® of the better class arfe clean;, but those of the poorest are inclined to be dirty (21764-21765). The Jewish community does not encourage imigrants to come over, unless they are able to establish themselves- on a good footing in this country (21756-21768, see also 21845- 21851). No difficulty in enforcing: the sanitary law under the Public Health Act (21772). There is more overcrowding amongst the poorer Jews than, amongst the corresponding class of English people. Does not think this is due to immigration,--'but to natural in- crease and the small mortality (21773-21788 and Table B, see also 21826-21827). The proportion of sanitary defects is highest amongst the Russians (21789-21790 , and Table C). The Jews are very free from infectious diseases, with the exception, of diphtheria,, and when an outbreak of fever occurred m 1900 the Jewish district was entirely spared (21791-21797). There are only 562 Italians, in, Manchester, and most of them have been there for a considerable time (21803-21805). The Manchester and Salford Ladies' Health Associa- tion and a. Jewish society of the same nature employ a number of visitors, who do a, large amount- of visits ing for the Corporation, but Miss; Blumenthal was. on a different footing, beans one of the city's officials (21806, see also 21779-21782 and 21813-21816). The districts visited in Strangeways and Bed Bank are almO'St entirely occupied by .Tews, and the houses- of the English and alien Jews are' equally insanitary^ but they are not less' asm enable to sanitary aclmini*- tration than the ordinary population! (21807-21812). The difficulty of defining; overcrowdincr (21817-21822). Aliens resist insanitary conditions better than the natives (21828-21832). Tempera,nee aids sanitary work (21834). Poverty is an element in overcrowd- ing (21841-21844). The rapid growth of our cities causes overcrowding, irrespective of the alien popula- tion altogether1, but. a. large immigration would in- crease the difficulty (21856-21862). A medical ex- amination before or on landing desirable (21863- 21869). Nugent, W. A. Headmaster of Betts Street Board School, St. George-in-the-East, which contains 180 Jewish and 127 Christian boys (18710-18718). Of the 180 Jewish boys, 110 were born abroad and 64 born of alien parents, only six born of English parents ; but this school is in the centre of the district where the aliens come, close to the London Docks (18719-18732). The attendance of the Jewish scholars was 96 per cent. (18734-18739). The alien children improve in clean- liness and manners generally. They are very tract- able, and compare very favourably with English chil- 4 dren in intelligence ; they appreciate games ; they become Anglicised and loyal, and soon learn the lan- guage ; are very successful in examination (18745- 18764). The proportions of the girls are about the same, 180 Jewish and 180 Christian (15765). The very poor class are provided with free dinners (18770- 18771). The children in the school represent the> lower class of both natives and aliens (18787). The) alien parents are very sober people (18792). O'Grady, James. Is organising secretary of the National Amalga- mated Furnishing Trades Association ; the union has about 7,500 members, and embraces the whole country, including both Jewish and Gentile workers ; it comprises the cabinet-making, chair-making, carving, polishing trades (13962-13967. It has a Jewish branch in the East of London of about 150 members, and in Manchester one of 200 members (13968-13969). It has in London working rules, in the form of an agreement with employers, which fixes a minimum rate of lOd. per hour; its working hours are 50 per week ; aliens outside the union earn from 10s. to 50s., i.e., the "greener" 10s., the better-skilled artisan 30s., and a few thoroughly? skilled 50s. The non-unionists work from 57 to 60 hours per week ; the aliens: who are members of the Jewish branch of the union,; aire, allowed to> work 53^ hours (13970-13983). The larger shops in which union workers work are in extremely good sanitary condition, but in the' smaller union shops and the better non-uniom shops the conditions are not quite so good; in the smaller non-union shops the122 BOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION 2\m'Lvsis. O'Grady, James—continued. ----------conditions are filthy (13984-13937). Lebus, of Tot- tenham, employing about 2,600 men, has a strong non-union shop ; half of his workers are Christian, Poles, the other half nearly all Hebrews ; 280 cabinet makers get from 18s. to 35s. a week, working 64J> hours ; 170 improvers get from 2cl. to 4d. an hour; 400 fitters from 4d. to 7d. an hour; 120 women polishers, the best qualified getting 18s. a week ; there are 25 engineers and about 200 dock labourers who unload the timber from the canal or river, and get 15s. a. week. There are several hundreds whose wages cannot be ascertained. (N.B.— The union mem demand 10£d. per hour). The dock labourers recently caused a riot at Tottenham, which was stirred up chiefly by a notice being put up,: " No English need apply" ; Lebus denied knowledge of this notice (13989-14006). The results of these con- ditions are a great displacement of British workmen and a lowering of wages ; the union men are now engaged in the better class of furniture making, the medium and ordinary bedroom suite, not very cheap, being entirely made by aliens (14007-14011). In the small workshops, where the conditions are bad, the hire-purchase furniture is made (14012- 14013). The union objects to the " greener " because he is unskilled and because he becomes the victim of tyrannical employers, and because, by only learning one branch of the trade, he is entirely subject to hi» employer; thus he has to accept lower wages ; the employer, further, keeps two sets of books, one of which falsely shows that the man is working within the rules (14014-14028). Some Hebrew employers make the 50 hours in five days, and close Saturdays and Sundays (14029-14033). The union objects to boy labour because with apprentices one man gets a large wage, whereas if his assistance were one adult each would get a good wage, say £2 3s. 9d. each per week of 50 hours (14034). Much cabinet work made in the garrets round the East End is hawked about in barrows on Saturday, and sold much below its market value to an experienced man (14035-14041). The complaint that at big firms, e.g., Maple's, men only make a portion of an article, has now no cause for existence, as the men in the West End shops are general hands (14043-14046). Witness thinks some kind of restriction with regard to entrance should be imposed upon unskilled workmen; the union always welcomes skilled labour (14050-14053). Un- skilled labour ousts the skilled labour with regard to a portion of the trade (14060). O'Grady, Thomas. Is secretary of the London Metropolitan Branch of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives (13514). The total number of the National Union is 28,000, of whom about 5 per cent, are aliens, and of the London branch 5,000 to 6,000 (13515-13519). The union's list of wages has been jointly arranged between workmen and employers, but the alien works at home under any conditions, often at 50 per cent, lower than the agreement, by employment \ of the greener, who deteriorates the quality of the London work; these employers of greener labour did have a Jewish union, but they left it, and began to sweat (13520-13528). The Factory Act seems a dead letter in the East End, the greatest portion of the work being done under the system prior to the agreement caused by the strike of 1890; thus, Eng- lish labour, objecting to this old system, falls out of the market; the agreement of the London Federa- tion—John Arthur Craig representing the em- ployers' association, and Thos. O'Grady (the witness) the workmen's association—was to concede the work- shops and to draw up a list of wages, subject to alteration by the board (13529-13535). Labour ia America is better circumstanced and better paid than in London, the hours being about the same, viz., 54 a week (13537-13540). American competition is not formidable now, as Englishmen make an equally good article; thus the import is decreasing; the aliens, however, give London a bad name by the in feriority of the articles ; they attack the medium work with trash, even inferior to what was brought from Switzerland or Germany (13541-13548). The numbers of natives in the union have decreased one-third during the last 10 years, having been driven out by rM;ans ; natives can only keep the workshops open O'Gkady, Thomas - coniimud. because a better class of work is made ; the alien takes an order for a large lot at a low price because he employs sweated greener labour (13552-13558). Without the alien, London could make the same? quantity of boots, because thousands would be em- ployed who have become, e.g., dock workers, tramcar- men, etc. (13560-13565). Bootmakers object now to bringing up their sons to the trade (13567-13568). The Census of 1901 gave 8,000 in the shoe trade working' at home, the greater portion of whom were aliens (13572-13575). Probably the American and foreign competition is more serious in the export trade, as foreign countries would not take East End work ; nevertheless, our export trade fairly holds its own, and has increased lately (13576-13584). Pre- sent- wages compare favourably with what they did before, the objection to alien labour being that it has taken work from so many natives (13586- 13592). Leicester being a well-organised town, the unions there are numerically stronger than in Lon- don ; Northampton, also not so well organised as Leicester, has more unionists than London, the Londoners having become demoralised (13596-13599). Apart from the alien question, Leicester and North- ampton competition would not be serious, their con- ditions of working being similar (13600-13602). The London branch of the union has decreased over 50 per cent, since 1890, the proportion of aliens being about equal to the native decrease ; many English have left the unions to work in the sweating dens, many aliens having become sweating employers (13603-13614). The term " sweating den " would generally be applied to a home workshop in which a man manufactures with assistance of greeners (13615- 13619). Dispossessing manual labour by machinery, as has been done in Leicester in the lasters' busi- ness. is not objectionable if it is successful (13620- 13637). Greater inducements are given to a sma- worker in America (13633-13637). Aliens have not ■permeated to Leicester and Northampton in any num- bers yet (13638). It is difficult to say how many are out of work, because so many take piecework; trade is, however, in a bad condition, but not worse than in the last two or three years (13640-13641). A greener often comes over quite ignorant of the trade ; lie therefore employs little skill while he is learning ; he soon attacks the English workers' position, and many who have been in England 10 or 1? vp^ts have very little improved their position ; some, however, who do imnrove. become themselves sweating masters (13642-13651). The union gives all information, and is open to every applicant, official or otherwise (13653-13654). In the machine-sewn department t1, London native still holds his own, only the Englisn Jew participating in this highest class of work ; fch^ real competition of the alien is felt in the lower class of work (13655-13657). Oniox, F. H. A boot clicker, i.e., a cutter of skins (2485-2487). Foreign competition most seriously affects the native population, the wages being constantly reduced,, but the clicker is less injured than the lasters and finishers (2488-2498). Witness describes fraudulent bankruptcies of aliens, their causes and effects (2502-2513, 2523-2526, 2537-2540, and 2552-2565). The living conditions of aliens are very ob- jectionable (2514-2522). They work for Christians, but deal with their own people (2532-2551). Greeners- are taken in charge by the sweater (2576). Aliens do principally lasting and finishing by hand work, but in some of the large factories machinery is used ; clicking is all done by hand (2577-2583). Inside the shops in which witness is employed 18 are employed at rough-stuff cutting and clicking; outside 40 are employed at lasting and finishing (2589-2591). The Christians are employed inside the shop, who are highly skilled workmen (2600-2602). Phillips, Moss. Past President and Founder of the Whitechapel and Spitalfields Costermongers' Union (19981). Union admits equally foreigners and natives. There have always been Jewish costermongers in London. Costermongers do not stand outside a shop selling the same goods as the shopkeeper (19982-19994). Costermongers do a much larger trade than pre- viously (19095).ANALYSIS. 123 Pinto, Julius. A merchant tailor (20896); is naturalised (20891) ; a native of Holland, resident in Glasgow 35 years (20854-20856). Alien immigration has assumed no serious dimensdoni in Glasgow; general population of Glasgow lias increased from 1871 from 490,442 to 760,423 in 1901; the Jewish population i® approxi- mately 6,000, of whom about 4,000 reside in the Gor- bal's district on the south side of the river (20859;) {see also 20937-20939). In Scotland the alien popula- tion was in 1901 22,627 (14,448 males, 8,179 females); Russians 10,373, Italians 4,051, Germans 3,232. Many Italians are ini Glasgow, chiefly as ice cream vendors (20860-20870). The Jews do not overcrowd ; accord- ing to sanitary statistics, they occupy small houses (20871-20874). Bents arei not affected by thean, and key money does) not exist; they keep .their houses clean (20875-20876, and 20879-20883). Very few come direct (20878); they make great progress in education (20884-20890); are keen to become natur- alised, but the fee is too high, and the process, too cumbersome ; they are loyal; they live well and dress well (the income from the poultry tax was £158 5s. 9d., anud from the butcher tax £488 16s. 6d.). Statistics show they are not a criminal class (20890- 20896). They gamble. They only are engaged in tailoring, boot-making, cabinet-making, and cigarette- making. The ready-made and cheap tailoring branches of the tailoring trade are principally, though not exclusively, in> their hands. They first came 30 years ago. Witness explains^ advantages gained by the growth of this 'branch, chiefly through sub-division, and shows how by piecework good wages can be obtained : present list of wages issued by the International Tailors', Machiners', and Pressors' Undoni (re Unionist in Glasgow see 20943- 20945). The average selling price in Glasgow would now be about 35s. The credit system is too com- mon now (20806-20915). 'The Scotch are not so thrifty now '(20916). Witness would exclude the criminal and immoral class (20919). There is. a Jewish Board of Guardian® in Glasgow, but there is a redaction in the relief given (20029-20035). The wages of the miners are not affected by foreigners (20946-20964). Witness explains procedure by the sanitary authority against overcrowding, and system of tickets (20965-20982), and difference of houses and rents on front lands and (back lands. Rents of houses of one apartment on front lands average 9s. 9^d. per month, and of two apartments 12s. Id. ; and of houses of one apartment on back lands 8s. 4^d. per month (20983-20991). Policoff, David. Secretary to the Manchester Jewish Tailors', Machinists', and Pressers' Trade Union (consisting of 900 member si, mostly foreigners, 21085-21086) since 1890, but has had experience of tailoring trade since 1888 (20999-21003). Wages in London (and Man- chester are practically the same (21005). Sub-divi- sion enables the Jew to earn better wages, 8d. to Is. per hour, than (the Ehglishimian's 6d. to 8d. per 'hour, but he does not encroach on the Englishman's province, who is more favoured by the shopkeeper. Tailors in Manchester work by the day, machinists and pressors by the piece; the 'button-hole hands (women) by the piece (21066-21012). The Jews earn more by the day because his turn-out is larger. He m'akes a smarter, but not, perhaps, so istrong and well-finished an article as the Englishman., but his clothes would average £1 less, in price, though made of the same material (21013-21019). The Jews are indispensable to the tailoring trade. About 150,000 garments are made weekly in Jewish workshops by their system. The English apprentice is. dying out, in spite of the fact that the objection to apprentices is not so strong on the part of the unions (21020- 21022). The majority of Jews, who come from abroad are tailors, but young English tailors prefer pressing and machining. Thus without Jews there would be a dearth of tailors. There is a lack of English tailors now. Masters do not encourage late hours, seeing they cm get the work done by Jews under better r conditions 1(21023-21028). Thje average wages of Jewish tailprs would be 7s. per day, though first- , class tailors may earn up to 10s. 6d. (21033-21037). (Witness givesi list o£ wages, taken from wage books, 21037 and 21039). The Jews do not make the very commonest garment, but .an intermediate one (21038). The Jews have introduced the rainproof trade. In 6L44 Policoff, David cotititvued. a^4LYSI$ Manchester there are about 20 factories, employing-- about 1,000 Jew®. The wages are from 10s. down to 4s. a day, according to the work done; the hours 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. (21041-21042). Also the cap-making industry, but English women are displacing the Jews (21043-21045). The mantle trade has been in- troduced from Germany into England by the Jews. About 500 Jews are employed in it in Manchester (21046-21048). The j&pds. clothing trade is the cheapest trade in fi^land. The Leeds Jewish tailors are better paid than the Leeds English cutters. The Leeds men are not so skilled as the Manchester men. Witness classifies the workers (21049-21051). The Jews desire to be naturalised, but the cost should be reduced, and the process simplified (21052-21065). Witness disputes, state- ment that Jewish unions 'are only formed for' tem- porary strike purposes (21066). Witness would limit work to eight hours a dav, and keep out female labour (21069-21082). Pbag, Joseph, Councillor of the Borough of St. Pancras, and mem- ber of many Jewish communal institutions ; has been for 23 years a merchant in the City, mixing among Jewish manufacturers (17809-17811). The alien population in St. Pancras constitutes 3^ per cent. of the population; they are of all nationalities, but chiefly Germans and French; there are from 500 to 600 Jewish aliens (17812-17815). The Germans are in the Fitzroy and Cleveland Street district, and belong to a very low class; they are of a vicious character, but restriction Acts would not keep them out as they have means (17817-17821). The Jews are spread over the whole of the district, being cabinet- makers, tailors, and shoemakers (17822). The foreign workpeople in St. Pancras are chiefly French and Ger- man (17824). The overcrowding and insanitary condi- tions of S t .Pancr as. which are not due t o alien immigra- tion, are worse than those of Stepney; great improve- ments have, however, taken place recently owing to the increased vigilance of the authorities (17829-17836, 17896*). Witness shows, state of overcrowding by giving the number of people to the acre in several districts; there is, however, no district in St. Pancras which has so many to the acre as Spitalfields (17837- 17844). The Jew becomes one of the country in which he settles, his aloofness being only on account of religion; his adaptability enables him soon to pro- cure good wages; his desire to become a master brings him into conflict with trades unions; he embarks on industries which are not those of native workmen, namely, the mantle, boot and shoe, clothing, fur, cap-making, cabinet-making, cigar and cigarette, trimming, and waterproof clothing trades, and other trades which, before his advent, were new in this country, e.g., the blouse-making trade, which used to be French; he has revolutionised the shoe trade in ladies' and children's boots, shoes, and slippers; he does not compete with the boot and shoe manufacture® of Northampton, Leicester, and Kettering; and much of the clothing trade, the export of which runs into millions, is due to the aliens (Phoenix, Lowy, and Co., Gracechurch Street, state that 75 per cent, of the clothing trade in the City and West End is done by alien Jews, who have adopted the principle of sub- division) ; the clothing trade has now increased four- fold ; the fur and mantle trades, which were ex- clusively French and German, are now carried on chiefly by the labour of Jewish girls in England, which also involves a large amount of native labour; Mr. H. Regnart, senior governor of Maple, Ltd., says that in the cabinet-making trade the influence of the alien imigrants has been for good ; Lebus, who was an, alien immigrant, is the largest furniture maker in the world, and employs 3,000 men at Tottenham ; the cigarette trade is due to the Jews (17850-17865). The reason for the high fire insurance rates is not really due to Jewish incendiarism; the general dislike on the part of offices to grant Polish Jews policies being due to unfair prejudices (17866-17876). The standard of life of the alien immigrant is higher than that of the native in the same station of life; the Jews over- crowd from necesity, and improves his position when his means permit; they pay great attention to the education and health of their children; the children of the alien immigrants are of fine physique ; th#> R124 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Akalysis. Pe-AG, Joseph—continued. placement of English is due, not to the Jews, but to the fact that the industries have left them ; the Jewish alien immigrant is often a man of the highest culture (17877-17883). Witness is opposed to all restriction except in the case of known criminals and the diseased (17890-17893). Rawden, Joseph W. P. Headmaster of the Deal Street Board School, which has on its roll 335 Jewish boys out of a total of 340 (18866-18867). The percentage of average attendance in 1902 was 97'5. Witness speaks in high terms of the excellent progress and ability of scholars, citing in- stances. Not only do they show mental ability, but they excel in all physical exercises, games, etc. (18867-18873). The Christians in the neighbourhood send their children to the Church schools (18878). On certain days in the week the Jewish boys are separated from the Christian children. There is no religious difficulty in the school (18889-18892). Richards, Alfred Edward. Manager of the West End Clothiers' Co., Ltd., who are -bespoke and contract tailors carrying on business in eight branches in London and five in the provinces (20135-20136). They employ over 1,500 hands, 20 per cent, of whom are foreigners. The English repugnance to the principle of the sub- division of labour and the constant disputes in con- nection with "time log sheets" cause the employ- ment of foreigners, the latter being paid by salary per day or week, and; being much more regular in their attendance, and more' temperate, greater reliance can be placed upon the alien, who earns 50 per cent, more than the British tailor, his average earnings per working day of 10^ hours being 8s. 6d. in Sheffield (20137-20141). The firm has corporation contracts, and employ 100 tailors, 13 of whom are aliens. Many first-class; firms of tailors in the West End of London employ alien labour because it is good and reliable, and not because it is cheap (20141-20145). There are three tailors' unions in Sheffield—the Amalgamated Society of Tailors, the International Society of Tailors, Machinists and Pressers, and the Tailors and Tailoresses' Trade and Benefit Society (20162). There are some foreigners in the first who work on the time log sheet principle; the second society con- sists principally of foreigners who work on a totally different principle; the relations between the two unions are very bad (20163-20173). All work is done in the firm's own workshops (20194). Its success is due to a great extent to aliens, owing to their more regular habits (20197). The alien has undoubtedly introduced the sub-division of labour into the trade (20208). Ronald son-, J. M. Inspector of Mines for the western district of Scot- land, including the greater part of Lanarkshire (22035-22037). In May, 1901, there were 1,023 aliens, Poles and Russians, employed in Lanarkshire, and they have probably increased since. They are, how- ever, a very migratory class (22039-22044). When they arrive they know nothing of mining. They start at hewing and drawing, but they soon become good average workmen * (22045-22049). They are by no means a source of danger in the mines, being very amenable to orders. The fact that the rules are - printed in Yiddish is not of much use, as many can- not read, but they soon get to know the substance . -of the rules (22050-22054). They remain in thei .. country for four to eight years (22055), not intending , , to remain permanently (22070-22073). They do not seem to displace native labour, the number of persons . employed - in Lanarkshire increasing yearly. The total number employed below ground in 1901 was 24,493 (22056-22058).. They are chiefly Roman Catholic Lithuanian Poles (22062-22063). A police . constable employed by Baircl and Co., Ltd., describes , an alien on his first arrival as a poor, degraded look- ing person., He comes to some connection who is working in the mine, who starts him at low wages, but after a short time he nuts his name into the colliery office, and receives ..full pay. He saves, and if married brings his wife- over. Poles, as a rule, are inclined to be dirty and overcrowd, but trv to im- Ronaldson, J. M.—continued. prove. They are steady men (22064-22067). Subse- quently to the strike of 1894 these aliens came, but not to displace native labour, as when trade is brisk the mine owners cannot get enough workmen (22079- 22084). They go underground at once under the supervision of a skilled man; there is no certificate necessary (22085-22088). The Coal Mines Regula- tion Act prescribes that no man shall work alone at the coal mines unless he has been working two years, but the fact that he is not obliged to present a certifi- cate makes it very difficult to prove qualification (22089-22090). Some managers will not employ, and some seem to^prefer aliens, and in many places they work harmoniously together, but, as, a rule, the work- men -are against the Poles (22091-22101). The dis- pute at the Tannochside Colliery was caused by four Poles undertaking to accept lower wages on the ground that the circumstances of the mine had raised the wage above the standard limit (22102-22107). Every man employed in the mine must pass through the officials of the colliery, but a workman may be employed at first by a miner, who draws the money and pays him, wages (22108-22113). Generally the aliens may be said to provide an industrial want, but at slack times, they may displace native labour. They are paid at the same tonnage rate (22115- 22119). Aliens work separately, and are not mixed with natives (22120). Roth, Israel, Secretary to the East London Bakers' Union, officially contradicts evidence of Mr. S. Levy (set 20071). Denies existence of Master Bakers' Society as- a recogtnised 'body (21874-21883), and his statement as to hours and wages, Salbbath labour, holidays, and amalgataiation of his. society with the Journeymen's Union of Bakers (21884-21921). East London, Bakeirs' Union consists of 160 j ourneymen baikeirs, out of about 200 employed in the East End bakehouses. Some aire out of work (219214-21929). The feeling between - masters and men is mot satisfactory at present (21943). Rygate, Dr. B. R. Public vaccinator to the district of St. George-in- the-East. Was Medical Officer of Health from 1883 to 1901. Is also a poor-law medical officer ; has had 20 years' experience in the district (5834-5835). Has noticed a great displacement of iniaftives. by aliens, ■accompanied by deterioration in trade. In 1891 the English population was 10,000, the foreign 2,000; now reversed. Bitter feeiling therefore exists (5837- 5862). Witness discusses sanitary arrangements. Habits of people aire very primitive, but they improve (5863-5881 and 6000-6004). The change in the popu- lation is extending eastwards (5883-5886). Under- ground residence® are increasing in the western dis- trict. An inhabitant can sleep in anj underground room if he has one upstairs, (5888-5905). Witness suggests thiat in every house let in lodgings, the cubical capacity should be known at once, which should be raised to 450 cubic feet (5906-5915 and 6024-6035). The population of St. George's has re- mained stationary (5926 and 5938-5944). Witness explains action during his term of office in respect to overcrowding. Does not see great difficulty with proper staff in coping with it. The extension of the building area is, a solution (5945-5999). Does not think overcrowding was excessive (6005-6003). Sealey, D. Employed at the Beckton Gasworks. Gives evi- dence how the Russian Poles displace English at the works. Out of 2,000 workmen there are quite 800' foreigners, who are preferred. They sleep in tho| . coke-holds. Witness puts preference down to action of foreman, who is bribed. The feeling is very bitter" (1784*-1816). sriarpe, Robert, cross-examined. Analysis of Evidence (Q.. 7987-8025). Witness resides in South Hackney. Is a costermonger deal- ing principally with haberdashery and jewellery (7987-8). Influx of aliens prevents earning honest- living (7989-91). Bitterness roused by alien com- petition. Hardship of being ousted from long accus- tomed place (7992-4). Bad conditions under whielrANALYSIS. 125 Sharpe, Robert, cross-examined—continued. foreigners live (7995). Agrees generally with other witnesses (7996-9). Witness frequents all East End - markets. Caster who travels feels competition more than one that is stationary (8000-2). Difficulty in ■ getting living as compared with 15 years ago (8003). : More aliens 'always crowding in. East End mostly 7 -affected by invasion. Stepney and Whitechapel are * worst affected, also Old Ford (8004-9). English • costers ousted by aliens (8010). Increase in member- ship of Costermongers' Union. Combine to defend themselves (8011-5). Number of English costers has increased in spite of alien competition. Due to growth of London. Difficulty of living increased (8016-8). Statement that English costers do not take out three or four barrows to prevent others from plying (8019-20). Aliens have own society, known as the Whitechapel, coiiisiistiiug of casfcermo-ngetra. In- " vitations to. demonstrations. accepted by English " societies, !but no response when invited in turn by f the English (8021-2). No objection to alien costers' union. Exists to protect trade interests (8023-5). Silver, Alderman James Lawson. Alderman of the Stepney. Borough Council, vice- chairman of the St. George's East Board of Guardians, chairman of the St. George's East Constitutional _ Club, a Governor of Rainess Schools, iSt. George's East, and vice-chairman of the Housing of the Work- ing Classes Committee of the Stepney Borough Coun- ted! (2603). Ha® been resident 25 years in the centre of . the foreign population of East London (2604). The tendency of aliens has been tot move east and north. For the past 10 years editor of the " Eastern Post and City 'Chronicle," iciroulatdng in East London, and for 13 years prior to that was connected with the " East London Observer " and another local newspaper (2605- 2606). Has good knowledge of district. Twenty years ^ -ago, when the Borough of Stepney comprised the districts of Whitechapel, Mile End Old Town, Lime- house:, and St. George's East, it was very prosperous (2606). The shops in the main thoroughfares were al- ,. most without exception run profitably by British (2610). "There was no excessive overcrowding; wages were good. The foreign population was confined at that, time to Spitalfields, the Tenter Ground, and the south ward of Whitechapel, in Stepney (2611). The struggle for existence between Britisher and foreigner had not then commenced; good-natured tolerance prevailed. Now everything is reversed; British tradesmen are displaced by foreigners, and overcrowding is exces- sive. The better' class people have migrated out- side, leaving only the residuum, who are compelled, at f any sacrifice, to live near their work, such as railway . porters, carpenters, stevedores, lightermen, water- men, and dock labourers., together with the foreigners .(261SJ). The foreign ciolony has extended its bounds gradually eastward and southward down to the river- . side in Whitechapel, eastward to St. Lucas Street, the . most eastern portion of St. George's East, in Stepney . .as far east as Beaumont Square, and in Mile End to Lincoln Street and Merchant Street. The tendency now is for the colony to extend northward through Bethnal Green and intoi Hackney. The Britisher has remained until he has succumbed to key money offered by some foreigner, who hopes to repay himself for that and an increased rental by becoming in his turn a small house farmer, and letting and sub-letting every room in the house. This is the main cause for the bitter feeling between resident Britishers and foreigners. The bitterness of feeling often shows it* . self, as attempts were *made last year to introduce foreigners into Cornwall Street, St. George's East, but they were repelled by the British people resident ■there, and the police had to be called in. Several . serious disturbances have taken place '2614). Re- , peated attempts have been made by foreigners to settle in the district of St. George's known as " Below Bridge"—south side of Old Gravel Lane Bridge—but so far no foreign settlement has been made there (2615). "The bitter feeling is chiefly caused by the- foreigners' unfair tactics in acquiring the houses. Key money was unknown previous to advent of foreigners; now it is almost usual (2620). The larger the bribe, the better the chance of a tenant being accepted. The Chapman estate owned by Lord Winterton (900 houses), also the Mercers' estate in Stepney, oppose key money. A house in John Street, St. George's, •containing five rooms and a small workshop, was 6144. Silver, Alderman James Lawson—continued. Analysis* rented at 7s. 6d. per week; to-day it is 35s. per week, with £10 key money (2623). No foreigners resided in William Street, Samuel Street, James Street, Lang- dale Street, Severne Street, Umberston Street, Morgan Street, Grove Street, and Christian Street at one time; now there are scarcely 20 English resi- dents in all those streets (2623). Population of those streets; would be about 1,000 (2624). To pay the rents the foreigner must let our every room tot a different family, even to the basement and coal cellars; and in one known instance has even let the w.c. Has re- ported many cases to the Public Health Committee, who1 in spite of the Public Health Act, find that dealing with these people is like dealing with a large rabbit warren (2627). In the streets on a summer's evening every bouse is seen toj_vomit forth hordes of people. The conditions under which these foreigners exist are disgusting. These conditions conduce to im- morality. The foreigner will not associate with other than his own people (2628). Within the past two years four hitherto prosperous tradesmen have been ruined in Cannon Street Road, viz., an undertaker, a grocer, an oilman, and a pork butcher, through losing their former customers, who, all Britishers, were com- pelled to leave the neighbourhood. Watney Street, once a prosperous market place, is also on the verge of ruin through the establishment of a foreign market in Samuel Street. The goods, provisions, etc., sold on the barrows have been stored overnight in filthy rooms. Every other house in the streets of these small foreign colonies becomes a small emporium, which attract trade away from more legitimate centres. The foreign shopkeeper, coster, or window salesman is able to sell cheaper than the ordinary tradesmen. Expenses are not so great, standard of life is very low, and he is satisfied with smaller profits. Thus he. attracts trade', and enhances the bitter feeling. He works unceasingly. These places are open, to 2 or 3 a.m., and thus exercise an unfair compe- tition with our own people (2630). Many aliens work all night long (2632). Foreigners in some measure responsible for the high rates (2637). Last year 700 thrown upon the rates; steady increase every year. Poor rate' increased (2645). School Board rate also; foreign children necessitating increased accommoda- tion. Recently the School Board scheduled three ad- ditional sites—Myrdle Street, Blakesley Street., and Bromley Street. This will involve pulling down 50 houses, all of which are occupied by British tenants, causing bitter feeling. It may be argued that the foreigners pay rates, but whole families live in single rooms, whereas British people occupy at most one house between two families,, and the burden falls on the latter (2646). There are more Board schools in Stepney than in other parts of London of a similar area (2647). Christian Street Board School, just opened, accommodates 1,000 children, the great majority of whom are foreign (2653). Foreigners in- crease the general rate; e.g., last year a largely increased sum had to be paid by St. George's because of the additional filth which the -contractor had to clear, all their garbage being thrown promiscuously into the streets. Street inspector does Ms best, but an occasional conviction does little to induce cleanliness 2658). Key money in the majority of cases, is paid to the landlord, in other cases to agent, and sometimes to outgoing tenant to get out (2661). E.g., widow paid 8s. per week at first; rent increased to 17s. 6d. per week; landlord threatens further increase unless she goes . out; foreigner has offered her 30s. to get out (2663). Foreign costers in Samuel Street set police at defiance, block pavement and roadway; no English Foster would be allowed to do> so (2665). Foreigners pav shop1- keepers to be allowed to stand outside their shops (2670). 75 per cent, of the proved adulteration of foodstuffs traceable to foreigners (2674). They form a colony and refuse to assimilate with the English; do not learn the language nor conform to English habits and customs (2675). Bo not trouble, except under severe pressure, to become naturalised. Natu- ralisation Society (1892 to 1895) formed in St. George's East died a natural death. Societies in Whitechapel and Stepney meeting with same results (2676). From 1st January, until December 31st, 1900, 581 naturali- sation rwtificates issued for the whole country; 84 related to persons resident in Stepney and East London (2677). In St. George's foreigners outnumber British, yet on the Parliamentary register there are R 2126 EOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION* -Awalysis. Silver, Alderman, James Law,son— continued. not more than 10 per cent, foreigners (2679). If foreigners became British citizens the British vote in Whitechapel, Stepney, and St. George's would be swamped. 18 per cent, of population of Stepney are foreigners, not counting children (2679). Population of St. George's East 60,000 (2681). But Parliamentary register1 not a guide, because it. includes Wapping, which is inhabited by English people (2685), and would obscure the statistics with regard to Stepney proper (2687). Another reason for resentment against these foreigners is their lack of patriotism, very few becoming Volunteers. They expressed their delight ■at our disasters in South African War (2674), and the once fawning, servile attitude of foreigners has changed to one of arrogance' and even contempt towards the English (2694). The ceaseless stream of foreign immigration is extremely depressing. Work is hard and not too plentiful, wages are hardly earned, house rents are dear, rates are high, and conditions of life at the best of times not of the happiest. When- asked to give evidence they replied, " What's the use? The evil is beyond remedy. Things cannot be worse than they are" (2695). The Housing Committee of the Stepney Borough Council doing very little; rates increasing to such an extent, they are afraid to engage in any large scheme. Present time only one area upon which dwellings are being erected (2698). Large buildings erected by private enterprise during recent years are largely occupied by foreigners—e.g., Messrs. Davis' Buildings (2701). Great displacement of popu- lation due to increase of factories, etc., but displace- ment owing to foreign invasion more serious; 7,000 or 8,000 houses, within the municipal borough of Stepney occupied by foreigners (2704), average. 10 people to a house (2707). Foreign immigration has enormously complicated housing operations, (2709), and the effect is felt in neighbouring districts (2721). Restriction , in some form must be adopted (2724). It would not ameliorate the condition of the East End for some time. First, restriction, then deal with the! evil as it exists under the powers we have (2725). Main prob- lem is that of housing (2727). They have sufficient powers to deal with the evil, provided that the con- tinual influx of foreigners is restricted (2734). Rents artificially increased owing to competition for other houses (2736). If the question was dealt with by legis- lation, the result would be a material diminution of rents (2739). Proceedings are taken against the land- lord ; no serious difficulty in Stepney in dealing with the cases (2744). The great benefit of restriction would be the deterrent effect that it would have in Continental ports (2752). Every foreigner forms in himself a. centre of attraction, and all his relations come over here in course of time (2753). The question of alien immigration would not be serious but for this congestion in the East End (2754). Foreign immigra- tion has not thrown out of employment large numbers of Englishmen, but has tended to reduce wages (2755). Extremely difficult for the Valuation Committee to ascertain the real rentals which are paid (2771-2787). Magistrates extremely reluctant to make closing order owing to want of accommodation for ejected, and if placed in the streets they go to the workhouse (2788- 2792, 2817). Difficulty exists wherever you get great. , attractions (2793). Aliens the cause of famine in house property (2794). Remedy should first consist in restricting immigration into East London at the . ports at which the aliens arrive (2796-2797). It would alleviate the evil if they could be disseminated over a . large area (2798). Evil largely local (2801). Con- siderable complaint owing to aliens working at a lower wage than Britishers (2808-2809); this produces lower selling p*ice to the consumer, but is of no real benefit (2810-2811). Goods produced mostly sent away (2812). . In the tailoring trade there are not 20 English tailors' cutters in the borough of Stepney (2815). Tradesmen and artisans driven out because of high rents (2817- 2818). Do not fear outbreak, but feeling is extremely strong; the inhabitants, although suffering hardships, restrain their tempers (2819). Have power to acquire land (2824-6). Only the British who are compelled to live near their work reside in Stepney, and to remove means losing employment (2827). Sanitary inspectors extremely active (2831), report to the Medical Officer of Health (2832), who when necessary reports to Public Health Commit tee (2833). Borough Councils have been active in looking after sanitary matters (2835). The Bench of Magistrates rather than the Stipendiary, who is a busy man, should have powers to close houses Silver, Alderman, James Lawson —continued. which are declared to be uninhabitable (2836-2841). Slum properties should be put into fairly habitable conditions (2842). Numerous complaints given as to policemen receiving bribes from foreigners (2848- 2849). Regulation space between costers' barrows 4ft. (2850); length of barrow also regulated (2852). Repre- sentations were made to the Chief Commissioner (2S54). Constable reported; very difficult to> trace (2856). Clearing slum areas a hopeless task (2865). House farmer should be made responsible for condition of houses (2877). Principal cases of overcrowding are foreign Jews (2878). Legislation would be. effective if the man who receives the rack rent, the highest rent for a tenement, were held responsible (2879-2891). Silverston, William. An English Jew, born in Birmingham of foreign parents (1933-1936). A shoemaker in Well Street, Hackney, 14 years (1817-1822). Eighteen years ago was very prosperous, with plenty of work, but through small people springing up, and so many foreigners coming into the trade, and cheapening labour and lowering prices, business has gone down considerably (1823-1832, 1893-1899). Seven years ago the cost off finishing a dozen pairs of shoes was 6s. to 7s., now 2s. 9d. to 3s. 3d., which includes material for the different processes and payment of assistants (1833- 1843). " A " does the paring of the heel and the fore part of the boot; "B," under him, buffets it—i.e., scrapes the sole clean, sandpapers it, inks and irons it. This process is " finishing " (1844-1847). A man work- ing 12 hours a day could do 18 to 20 pairs, but aliens often work 16 to 18 hours a day, otherwise could not get a living at the price (1848-1853, 1959-1970). This sweating is ruining business men (1854-1855). Greeners supply this cheap labour, and when they start on their own account others are sent for (1855- 1858). Witness often visits workshops and finds new manufacturers who cannot speak English. Many when they start- for themselves get some credit from small leather people and then become bankrupt (1862- 1853, 1923-1926, 1985-1990). Witness employs 18 to 20 indoor men (1869). A great deal of sub-division of labour exists for the number of processes (about 20) in making a boot, due to machinery, especially in Leices- ter and Northampton (1874-1885). Small manufac- turers suffer by competition with machinery (1888- 1892). Wages; have dropped a fifth during the last 15 years, (1903-1905). The people; that take work from; witness can get any amount of unskilled labour (1906- 1909). Aliens invite others over and supply them with work (1913-1922). The Leicester and Northamp- ton shoe is of a different class, and superior to a London shoe, and the labour conditions in the former do not affect East London (1927-1932). Witness speaks- for his trade, and men of his class are against un- restricted alien immigration (1937-1941). Witness did employ these aliens, but not now (1942-1945). He- employs these men by piecework, who* take it either to their own homes or to workshops and sub-divide it (1946-1964). There is no outdoor labour in Leicester and Northampton, but it is done in large manufac- tories, the men working for a certain time and getting definite wages. The Jew population is small in these towns (1971-1975). The cheap American boot, does not affect witness's business; the cheap labour is not due to it. as it has only recently occurred (1976-1983). The bulk of those employed in the shoe' trade come' fram Russia and Russian Poland (1992, see also 539). Witness admits that the price of Leicester and North- ampton boots, which are of superior quality, has fallen considerably by the use of machinery and skilled labour, but his object is to keep the price up. He sells to the retail dealer and to the wholesale ware- houses (1993-2011). Has visited where foreigners are employed, and sees the English are being oust ed. The Englishman produces the better article, but the foreigner works quicker. He gives out his work, and' does not concern himself whether it is done by natives or Russians, both being employed. Both receive the same wages. Wages should be higher, the manufac- turer and the retailer should receive, and the customer should pay more (2012-2032). If aliens were, dispensed with, the result would be serious at first, but there are thousands in Northampton and Leicester and Leeds who would gladly come to> London, which would mean bringing them from timework to. piecework, and they would receive more than Russian and PolishANALYSIS. 127 Silverston, William—continued. Jews. The price would rise all round, but the article would be superior. Witness admits that the Jews are equal to the London workmen. The provincial boot- makers brought to London would make a superior article, and certainly interfere with the London workers and cause trouble (2040-2063). A fall in price is evil when it involves ruin to tradesmen, miserable wages, and sweating (2098). Does not employ union men (2064). At present there is much sweating in the London trade. A shoe costs 2s. 6d. per do;zen to get up. The sweater would get 3s. to 3s. 6d., paying his men Is. 6d., exclusive of necessaries. When his employees work for themselves he sends for other cheap labour (2065-2075). The foreigners are not cleanly in their habits, their earnings forcing them to live in over crowded conditions (2076-2080). There is a superabundance of skilled labour independent of foreign labour (2088-2089, 2096). The cheap shoe is of recent growth (2090-2091). Knows nothing of the slipper trade, except that formerly slippers were to a great extent imported from Germany (2092-2094). Smillie, .Robert. President of the Scottish Miners' Federation, to which 85 to 95 per cent, of the Scottish miners be- long (22913-22915). Early in 1902, out of 31,000 miners in Lanarkshire, 1,320 were aliens ; returns, however, are incomplete. The numbers are in creasing weekly. Witness explains method of ascer- taining numbers (22916-22927). The foreigners are un- skilled, and not sufficiently supervised. Union has complained to the Home secretary, showing resultant danger (22928-22943). The foreigners are Lithuanians, not Poles. Hence printing rules in the Russian language is useless, and the danger is increased by foreigners taking English names. There is no inter- preter (22944-22953). The German miners, about 40 in number, are skilled, and not objected to (22954). Foreigners seem to be preferred, but they are not objected to as foreigners if they are skilled and do not cut down wages. Their labour is not, however, welcomed, because they displace English miners, who go to America and elsewhere (22956-22983 and 22986- 23013). Sweating is occasioned by constant supply of greener labour, which is employed by miners, not masters (23014-23016). Smith, H. Llewellyn. Is Deputy-Controller-General of the Commercial, Labour, and Statistical Department of the Board of Trade (1). In that capacity has cognisance of the statistics of emigration and immigration (2 and 3). Has occupied his present position since 1897 (4). Statutes affecting immigration (5-9). Provisions of Alien Act (10). Under this Act, lists of aliens are rendered by masters of vessels to the Customs, whence they are sent to the Home Office, and then to the Board of Trade (11-14). Lists are obtained from 29 ports, but the lists from five of these in- clude only deck passengers and persons who, after landing, proceed by train as third-class passengers (15-20). Lists would be obtained from other ports were it considered necessary (21-22). Origin of dis- tinction made in Board of Trade statistics between "Aliens described to be en route " and "Aliens not de- scribed to be en route " 23-33). Many of the aliens arriving at London " not described to be en route " are really transmigrants (34-40). Illustration of an alien list (41). Steps taken by the Board of Trade to check alien lists (42). Lists generally found to be accurate (43-46). Special officer of Customs boards ships bring- ing aliens to London from certain ports, and fur nishes a report to the Board of Trade thereon (47). The information obtained by this officer enables the Board of Trade to trace in the passenger lists of ships leaving the United Kingdom for places out of Europe the names of a certain number of aliens not described in the alien lists to be en route (47- 51). Special inquiries are made at intervals respect- ing aliens arriving at outports (52). Returns obtained by Board of Trade under Part III. of Merchant Ship- ping Act, 1894 (53-62). Statistics relating to immi- gration from the Continent of Europe at all ports of the United Kingdom (63-72). At London alone (73-83). At Hull (84). At Grimsby, Newhaven, and Smith, H. Llewellyn—continued. Leith and Grangemouth (85). (See Appendix, Table V.). Class of people arriving at Newhaven (87- 94). Continental ports whence alien® arrive at London and other large ports of the United King- dom (95-98). Nationalities, of aliens (arriving at Lon- don from Hamburg (99-105). Russians and Poles ar- riving at Grimsby in 1901 (107). Details handed inas to nationality of aliens arriving at all ports of the United Kingdom in 1901 (108). (See Appendix, Y.). Board of Trad© can estimate net result of emigration and immigration on total foreign popu- lation of United Kingdom, but cannot estimate the number of aliens who arrive from the Continent, and who, though not described in the alien lists to be en route, transfer themselves from one boat to another, or from one port to another, and proceed to places out of the U.K. (111-121, 134, and 179). Number of aliens not described in the alien lists to be en route, who were traced in passenger lists of outward-bound ships, 1893-1901 (122-130). Estimated net balance of foreign passengers inwards to the United Kingdom from all countries in 1901 (133). Board of Trade have no statistics of emigration from the United Kingdom to European countries (139). Alien Acts were protective Acts against attacks on this country (140). Steps taken by Board of Trade in the event of alien lists being found inaccurate (141). Masters of vessels neglecting to make returns, or wilfully making false returns, are liable to a penalty (142-144). No case known of a master wil- fully making a false return (145). Officers of Cus- toms who check alien lists are not technically under the Board of Trade, but the system of checking is controlled by the Board of Trade (146 and 147). Officers of Customs empowered to employ an inter- preter, if necessary (148 and 149). Proportion of alien immigrants who speak Yiddish (151). Occu- pation of aliens, as shown in alien lists, are not tabulated by Board of Trade (152). Officer of Cus- toms specially employed at the Port of London boards all vessels coming from certain ports (153-4). As to possibility of aliens who are described in the alien lists to be en route to places out of the United Kingdom remaining in the United Kingdom (155- 169). Causes tending to encourage alien immigra- tion (170-178 and 205-206). Aliens specified as en route all land in this country (180-181"), and almost exclusively at the north-eastern ports (184). Reason why distinction between " en route " and " not en route " is not made in London alien lists (185-188). Difference in character between alien immigration at northern ports and alien immigration at London; proportion of transmigrants much lower among aliens arriving at London (189-200) (see Ap- pendix, Table VI.). Statistics of alien seamen arriving as passengers from the Continent (207-209). Evidence as to what becomes of these seamen after they land in the United Kingdom (210-217). State- ments made by masters of vessels as to destination of aliens are voluntary (218-221). Seamen engaged in the navigation of the vessel in which they arrive are not included in the alien lists (222-223). Statis- tics of Poor Law relief granted to aliens in 1900, in the metropolis, in Stepney, and in Holborn (226- 234). American laws in restriction of immigration: Message of President of United States to Houses of Congress in 1901, dealing with the subject of immi- gration laws (237). Broadly speaking, there are three sets of^ immigation Jaws in the United States: (1) Chinese Exclusion Acts; general effect of these is to totally exclude Chinese labourers (238) ; (2) Contract Labour Laws, these prohibit the en- trance into the United States of persons under con- tract of labour or service (240-243); (3) the general law restricting the immigration of undesirable peo- ple (244-249). Procedure under United States laws (250-263 and 312-316). Statistics of persons rejected by United States immigration authorities (263-290). Colonial legislation relating to alien immigration (291-309). Deals with the question of alien pauperism; the number of individual aliens re- ceiving relief in 1902 in London was 3,234; 1,210 indoor relief; 1,611 medical relief only ; 245 other forms, and 168 in lunatic and imbecile asylums ; this works out at a percentage of 2*4 on the whole alien population as shown in the Census of 1901 (22125-22132 and Appendix XXV.). 1,993128 KOYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Smith, H. Llewellyn—continued. of these were in the Borough of Stepney (22134 and Appendix XXVI.). Witness gives details of relief of the Stepney aliens, showing that a percentage of 3*7 of the alien population receive relief (22135-22138 and Table XXVII.). Nationality of paupers in Lon- don and Stepney ; the Russians and Poles in Step- ney are enormously in excess of other districts (22140-22148 and Table XXVI.). The ratio of the whole alien pauperism of London to the whole popu- lation is about 7*9 ; this is based on the mean figure (22151). Figures are based on individuals receiving relief, not on the number of cases of relief given (22152). The figures relating to the relief given to the Russians and Poles are, of course, affected oy the assistance they receive from the Jewish Board of Guardians (22161). Witness proceeds to deal in detail with Tables XXV., XXVI., and XXVII. (22163-22191). Gives similar statistics of 1902, re- lating to certain selected provincial towns, showing that the approximate percentage of alien popula- tion is 4*0 (22192-22193 and Table XXIX), and by nationalities, showing that the Russians and Poles again take the lead, being the great majority in, Leeds, and principally receive outdoor relief (22199- 22201 and Table XXX.). Out of 539 receiving relief in Liverpool, the nationalities of 365 are not speci- fied; of these 365, 167 are emigrants passing through Liverpool, and would probably be Scandi- navians (22209 and Table XXX.). There is reason to think there has been a greater increase of pauper relief amongst aliens than amongst natives between 1901-2 (22215). The London County Council and the Metropolitan Asylums Board report that the result of a census of the lunatics and imbeciles in their institutions on a given day of May, 1902, shows that there were 21,076 inmates, including 544 aliens, or 2*6 per cent, of the total inmates, or *41 per cent, of the whole alien population, and *46 per cent, of the general population (22216-22221 and Table XXIV.). Witness shows that the statistics of ^he Board of Trade relating to London aliens are not inconsistent with those of the Census as the Board of Trade takes the total inflow as if all remain, whereas 23,000 have been traced outward, 19,000 have been removed by charitable agencies, 8,000 by deaths, and a very large number are known to have gone through (22221-22224). Witness gives statis- tics of aliens rejected by the United States, an in- creasing rejection, but a decreasing proportion. In 1902, out of 649,000, 5,439; in 1901, out of 488,000, 3,879 ; and in 1900, out of 448,000, 4,602 (22225-22229 and Table XXXIII.); and of aliens sent back and landed in this country in 1902, British 174, and foreigners 436, from the United States and Canada; of the foreigners, 401 were returned to the Continent (22234-22237 and Table XXXIV.). Information is obtained from the shipping companies. For lia- bility of shipping companies to return to thie Con- tinent, refer to case, Wallace v. J. and A. Allan (22244). Shipping companies do forward those re- jected to the Continent, but do not admit their liability (22253). Those rejected altogether at Liver- pool by the Medical Officer of the Board of Trade were 62, and by the shipping companies 25 (22257). (N.B.—This officer does not examine them qua aliens* but as passengers, under an order of the Merchant Shipping Act; the rejected are riot treated as aliens to be returned (22633-22635) ). The small number rejected dioes not prove the inefficacy of the American law, as it may be a deterrent (22264- 22266). Industrial Commission's report in America «ays 50,000 have been deterred (22267). No money is given to aliens, when returned to Liverpool, to proceed to the Continent; the cost of returning them is defrayed by the Liverpool companies, and the aliens do, as a rule, go back (22270-22275 and 22627- 22633). The Board of Trade obtains its legal power to reject from the Merchant Shipping Act (22283). The difficulties of deciding reasons for rejections, other than medical, must be great, e.g., whether or not he is likely to become a public charge (22297- £2310). The gross total of aliens who arrived in 1902 was 200,011, of whom 118,478 were declared to be en route, as compared with 149,750 in 1901, the main increase being amongst Russians and Poles, who come chiefly to London and Grimsby (22314- Smith, H. Llewellyn—continued, 22315 and Table V.). Of those not stated to be en route in 1902, 7,964 were actually discovered to be en route through the special Gravesend officer, which is an under-estimate, as there must be many more (see Table VII.). Sir Wm. Ward reports that, of 13,253 emigrants from Hamburg (of whom only 659 were described on alien list as en route) who de- clared their destination the United Kingdom, a large majority, in his and the Hamburg authorities' opinion, were really en route passengers, fear of the German regulations inducing them to conceal the fact (22323-22336). When they arrive they are lost sight of by officials here until they reappear at port of embarkation, when they are treated as emigrants (22340-22344). No Act gives power to record aliens leaving the country (22349). The Board of Trade, therefore, strikes a balance, treating British sub- jects going out and coming in as equal; witness de- scribes how Board of Trade obtains balance of foreign passengers between the United Kingdom and all places ; does not lay much stress on the balance, but thinks it useful for comparative purposes (22354- 22370 and Table III.). Certain contingencies do not much affect the question (22371-22382). This method, by regarding one man as a unit, takes no note of the quality of immigrants and emigrants (22383-22385). The object is to obtain a rough estimate of the alien population at a given time, and whether it is tending to grow or not (22387-22390). Deaths (about 4,000) in the year, of course, affect the balance (22393). The number of those of British nationality in Ger- many at the last Census (1900) was 16,173, against 14,713 in 1890 (22396-22397). From 1886 to 1902, 67 have been deported from Belgium to United King- dom, all but three being British; it does not appear from report that they were convicted and sentenced to be deported, or merely deported by police ; no repudiation from England (22469-22489). See also! 22701.) Witness hands in tables giving some statis- tics bearing on the prosperity of the working, classes from 1888 to 1902 (XIV.), giving returns of unem- ployed in^ furnishing and tailoring trades from 1894 to 1902 (XV.), giving wages in furnishing trades from 1893 to 1902 (XVIa. and XVIb.), wages in boot and shoe trades (XVIIa. and XVIIb.) from 1893 to 1902, wages in tailoring trade from 1893 to 1902 (XVIIIa. and XVIIIb.), also giving exports of apparel and slops and boots amd shoos from 1888 to-1902 (XIX.), the quantity of leather boots and shoes exported from 1893 to 1902 (XX.), and showing the value of leather boots and shoe® exported to various countries from 1893 to 1902 (XXI.), and value of apparel and slops ex- ported to various countries from 1893 to 1,902 (XXII.). The object of these tables is to connect the decrease and increase of immigration with the general state of trade (22490-22527). Witness also hands in table (XXIII.) showing alien population in certain foreign countries; the figures are not on the same basis, as in some countries, e.g., France and Germany, the children of foreign-born parents are counted as foreigners; the United States shows an enormous percentage to the total population, the United King- dom, with the exception of Spain and Sweden, the lowest (22528-22533 and Table XXIII.). Referring to the traffic from Libau, the Board of Trade ad- dressed a letter to the Chairman of the City Cor- poration, suggesting that a statutory nuisance be served upon the masters of insanitary ships while within the jurisdiction of the Port of London Sani- tary Committee, in the event of which proving fruit- less, fresh legislation would be required; the Cor- poration replied that, owing to the improvement of the Libau ships, they proposed to take no action; according to Libau gendarmes, 11,914 arrived from Libau (confirming the alien lists), the majority being transmigrants (22534-22544). "Re stowaways, many come to the United Kingdom, but more go out; th# penalty under the Merchant Shipping Act is on the stowaway, not the captain (22548-22551). Be cattle- men : There arrived in Liverpool, in 1902, 8,120; British 2,590, foreigners 5,530 ; deducting those who sail outwards, the balance inwards is 3,421—British 1,078, foreign 2,343; the foreign cattlemen have passes given to, them, and many go home,to the Con- tinent; some speak favourably, some unfavourably, ' they-do not appear to get into Liverpool workhouses ; they are beginning 1 "> come also fromANALYSIS. 129 Smith, H. Llewellyn—continued. Argentina (22551-22567). Witness describes the greater stringency of the new American Act: (1) The head-tax is raised to 2 dollars, and levied on all coming overland, except from Canada, Mexico, and Cuba ; (2) additions are made to persons prohibited ; ^3) a special fine of 100 dollars is imposed on anyone introducing a diseased person ; (4) declarations have to be made before the immigrant officer, not the Consul ; (5) inquiries are to be made in gaols and charitable institutions for undesirables; (6) the period for deportation is increased to two years ; (7) deals specially with Anarchists, defining the term (22569-22576). The Australian law is not an alien law; based on domicile, not nationality; it has the education test; must not be likely to become a public charge; it includes idiots, diseased, etc. (22577-22578). If Parliament were to specify certain classes for exclusion, the law might be efficiently carried out, but with difficulty; criminals could be more easily dealt with than those likely to become a public charge (22585-22590). The Immigration Act of the Cape of Good Hope is -sery similar to the Aus- tralian Act, except that it excludes, in addition, " per- .... sons otherwise considered undesirable, from informa- tion officially received" ; and with reference to con- tract law, it is the very inverse of the American law, anyone presenting a certificate that he is employed being admissible (22594-22596). Witness thinks that if it was made incumbent on the master of the vessel and on the alien to return his destination, statistics relating to transmigrants could be more easily ob- tained ; ostensibly a majority make their contract through passage-brokers abroad; the broker con- tracts and arranges the route; on the assumption of the Legislature intervening, arrangements should be made for the purpose of compiling accurate sta- tistics (22597-22610). From the statistical point of view it would be desirable that the shipping com- panies record the nationalities whG leave the United Kingdom for places in Europe (22621-22626). Wit- ness gives statistics as to the imports and exports of boots and shoes in 1882, before the influx of the aliens; in 1882, 110,000 dozen pairs ; in 1902, 244,000 dozen pairs imported ; in 1882, 634,000 dozen pairs ; in 1902, 789,000 dozen pairs exported ; the exports from the United States in 1882 were 32,000 dozen padx;s, pi 1902 330,000 dozen pairs (22636-22637); also the nationalities of 146 alien relieved in Liver- pool. Alludeis to th© strike of Jewish operatives; in the boot and shoe trade, which resulted in a rise of ( the piece rates from 10 to 12^ per cent. (22638, 22501- 22506). During the first four months of 1903, 23,716 aliens not stated to be en route, arrived, as against 20,948 in the same period in 1902; these figures in- clude seamen ini 1903, 4,624 ; in 1902, 5,089 (22639- .22640 and Tables XI. and XII). Russians and Poles show an increase of 2,000 (22643). Witness gives the flags of the various ships which brought the aliens in September, 1902; only 8 per cent, of 3,193 aliens were brought in British ships (22644-22648). Besides the 29 ports at which alien lists are supplied, witness has ascertained the number of arrivals .at 23 ports next in , importance, with the result that at these ports only 88 aliens have arrived, thus showing that all are obtained. (N.B,—At Folkestone and Dover, two of the 29 ports, only steerage passengers .and those who proceed by third class are returned.) (22649-22655). Witness criticises, the use of terms employed during the inquiry of the Com- mission, e.g. : (1) Displacement, whether in a locality or trade, is used without regard to the circumstances of the displacement, and in different ways, so as to leave a doubt as to the exact displacement caused by aliens ; (2) change of wages * the late of pay for all classes of labour may go tip, but the actual earn- ings may be less, owing to the economix^. changes of trades, especially those trades discussed in connec- tion with aliens ; (3) sweating is used in different • ways by different people, some regarding the cir- cumstances of individuals, others regarding a new method of trade adopted, e.g., sub division of labour !. to tailors ; in the boot trade it means giving out work to a contractor employing a team of operatives, instead of the old piecework throughout, i.e., work- men in particular ' trades often use fit'to cotinote Smith, H. Llewellyn—continued. Analysis. special modes of organising labour; (4) introduction --- - of new tr ades should mean the working at trade® which, if the influx had not taken place, would, not have been worked at; (5) public charge ; (6) completion of alien labour may be twofold, direct and indirect, which substitutes one product for another, but both work out differently in their effect on wages ; in the boot trade there is direct competition,^ but very few signs of it in the wholesale clothing trade; then the feeling is bitterer in the former than in the latter trade; the machine industry is, however, absorbing both ; in the boot and shoe trade there have been three developments, the last being the introduction of machinery, which did away with piecework and created sub-divisions ; with these sub-divisions the alien, aided by the difficulty of procuring space for factories, is competing; this is known as the sweat- ing system. London is not competing with pro- vincial places, because only the lowest class of work is made, which is not made elsewhere, except, per- haps, in the Leicestershire villages. Where the fac- tory industry exists, there is not much alien labour. The system of apprenticeship dying out, where there is sub-division greener labour is essential; sub- division certainly produces a cheaper article. Wit- ness, dealing with the Treaty position, refers to Article 13 of the Anglo-Italian Treaty of Commerce and Navigation, June, 1883, which is practically identical with Article II. of the Anglo-Russian Treaty of 1859, giving the subjects of contracting parties rights to reside, possess necessary dwellings for business purposes, carry on commerce, and to pay only such taxes and rates as are paid by the natives ; other countries will come in through the most-favoured- nation clause. The United States form of Treaty stipulation is not the same. Provisions might be made, consistent with adherence to the Treaty. It must be noted that Colonial laws do not impose e- strictions on alien immigrants, but on undomiciled persons. A British subject might be kept out of Australia as much as a Russian. With reference to administration, witness protests against any inter- ference with the transit passenger traffic, which is four times as great as the settlement (22656-22691). * All references in Roman figures refer to the Appen- dix, Vol. III. Solomon, Lewis. Architect to the Federation of Synagogues (18138). The main cause of the high rents in east of London is its proximity to the City, and the increasing value of land for business* purposes, (18139-18161). Key money existed before1 aliens arrived, a sort of tenant right to pro'7e that flhe houses were underlet. The fact that more live on an acre than previously is no proof per se of overcrowding, as the large Mock build- ings accommodate more, e.g., 500 to an acre (18162-18171). In the East End, however, the dis- placement has only been compensated to a small extent by these, 'buildings. Yet the population has increased,. Therefore, more are U£on a certain area. The alien immigrants are, however, really keeping down if ho rents, because if they were not there the houses, would hie detrntolished for ware- houses, making the land more valuable. Landlords do not adopt this business policy partly from senti- ment and partly from want of capital (18172-18201). If it were adopted the population would separate, and gradually spread out: e.g., the erection of a factory at Tottenham has' created a colony there of houses (18202-18215). The alien has preserved the residential character of Stepney (18220-18222). He is able to offer higher rents owing to his habits of thrift rather than by the means of overcrowding 18237-18240). The .men employed at Lebns' and at 11 at a.u s factories at Tottenham to a very large extent still live in Stepney, the accommodation at Tottenham being small at present (18246-18258). Ultimately their operatives will follow 'theftn to Tottenham. They are mostly Jews, and when they move they will have their synagogue (18260-18265).130 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: - Analysis. Solomons, Isidor. Secretary to the Capmakers' Trade Union; Past President of the East London branch of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives, and late Secre- tary of tEe National Boot and Shoe Workers' Union (20498-20501). The cap trade has been in- troduced, and largely developed, by the aliens,; from four there tare mow 120 factories in London,. The working hours are 9^ pear day ; the wages 25s. and 35s. per week. Many English females are employed, but the majority of males are foreigners, chiefly Russians and Poles (20503-20508). In respect of the boot and shoe trade wages have not decreased when estimated by the week ; it is mot fair to compare wages by the number of hoots passing through a man's hands, as the. development of trade has caused greatly increased production within a specified time. "When the English workmen found that the foreigners could do more work in ,a given time they forced them back by ill-treatment to the sweating dens, thus the English are responsible for the arrangement made in the strike of 1890 coming to an end. The aliens have not driven away the English leather dealers; the principal ones now being English (20609-20511). Witness contests, statement respecting the effect of exclusive dealing at Jewish shopisi in White Horse Lane, and generally contrasts the appearance of the Jewish quarters with those of native® (20512). The London Trades Council in the years 1895-1896 almost unanimously rejected the reso- lution advocating restricting legislation (20512-20515 and 20544-20558). The alien takes readily to the trades unions, but owing to his keen interest in the organisation often disputesi arise which causes, the system mot to flourish amongst them (20624-20536). Witness advocates the abolition of the domestic workshop, and would bring every workshop under the Factory Act; 'home work should be subject to a licence (20544-20549). Solomons, Zachariah. An English Jew. Manager of a firm of shoe manu- facturers in Stepney (2993-2997). Has noticed de- cline of trade owing to introduction of unskilled: labour. The English manufacturer employs only skilled labourers who can make a shoe right out; foreigners divide their work. They retail their shoes under cost price of English manufacture. Witness gives evidence of relative prices. The foreign shoe is very inferior (3002-3005). Anglo-Jew shopkeepers feel competition with aliens, necessitating late closing of shops ; gives instances (3006-3013). The constant supply of cheap labour in the shoe trade causes sweating; witness gives figures (3013-3044)* Great overcrowding under insanitary conditions, a lowering of the standard of life, and an increase of rents (see also 3058-3061), and ill-feeling result (3045- 3053). Wages are often not paid by employer, who absconds (3062-3066). Witness says the introduc- tion of the mantle-making trade has done no good to workers, as wages are so low (3068-3069). The aliens have driven out the old-clothes man, the ready- made clothes being made by sweated labour. Wages are so low that married men are not employed, but young new arrivals (3072-3077). From 1,000 to 1,400 pairs of boots are made weekly in witness's manu- factory, of about 40 different kinds. There is no- American competition and no Northampton compe- tition. The production in London is as great as ever, but the low wages make the trade bad to the work- men (3084-3102). Witness contends that the deterio- ration in the trade is not due to sub-division, but to the introduction of unskilled labour. At Leicester and Northampton they sub-divide the labour, but the wages are better (3103-3115). Witness explains how a boot was made formerly and now, and compares cost, including labour, material, etc. (3116-3186). Denies that the cheapness of to-day is a benefit, in view of conditions of producers (3187-3199). Witness wishes to see undesirables and the unskilled ex- cluded, and those who have no visible means of exist- ence. Does not fear skilled mechanics (3200-3215). Contends that aliens are displacing, and causing overcrowding, and discusses key money, which is of recent growth. Formerly it was for fixtures (3216- 3236). Somper, Joseph, Superintendent of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shel- ter for 6^ years (19047-19048). From November, 1901, Somper, J oseph—continued. to October, 1902, met 546 vessels arriving in London, bringing a total of 26,796, including 4,392 en route 19U51-1U054, 19067-190O9). Agent for Lloyd's wires arrival of steamer at Gravesend to shelter, whose agent meets her' in London, and boards the steamer. Licences for boarding are granted by the Hamburg, Bremen, and Rotterdam, Companies (19055-19064). Those en route stay in London as short a time as possible (19070-19074). 818 of the immigrants had through tickets to South Africa (19075-19076). Large numbers proceed to America and Canada. Onei agent paid Elder Dempster Shipping, Company £44,000 in 1902, representing 11,000 to 12,000 individuals, for passengers who had asi theiir destination London (19077-19084). Witness describes distribution of aliens on arrival, how some remain and others pro- ceed by illustration (19085-19094). He supplies Board of Trade with names of transmigrants (19095- 19096). Women remain, in the larger proportion (19097). Of the 26,796, 18 to 20 pier cent, disperse themselves within the United Kingdom (19101-19104). Shelter admits all who have, no< means, and no friends, irrespective of creed (19107-19109). In 1901-2, 2,270 were lodged, of whom 999 were at the expense of ship- ping companies; only 170 had no* trade nor means ■ (19110-19112). Immigrants are not examined on ar- rival ; have been twice examined, at the frontier depot and at the port of embarkation (19114-19120, 19249-19264). Their health on arrival is good (19121). They improve rapidly, and. become anglicised (19124- 19125). Witness disputes efficacy of passports, so many Russians and Pole® being disentitled, and diffi- culties so many (19129-19137, 19212-19228). Shel- ter only sends people to registered lodging houses (19138-19139). Out of the 2,6,796, only retained 1,290 who> did not know what to do- with themselves!, 771 of whom had means., and 349 had a trade, (19140- 19148). Thoee with a knowledge of a trade find em- ployment themselves (19149-19152, 19239-19244). Those who have none are assisted by friends, and get some employment, the shelter only keeping them 14 days. A few may go to the Board of Guardians (19153-19163). Those who come from Bremen have their trades and other particulars entered on their tickets (1916&-19171). Out of the 1,290 in 1901, 137 were bootmakers, 140 carpenters, 379 tailors and cut- ters (19172-19174). A very large number, unac- counted for, proceed to extra European ports, via G.W.R. (19186-19188). Witness disputes the statement that large numbers are dumped down in the district on arrival. Each man is registered in the' shelter, i.e., his name is entered, and all are assisted to their ultimate destination, but are not, except for teist oases, traced further (19189-19205). Witness thinks the shelter would be more effective as a voluntary than as a subsidised institution (19206-19211). Witness describes how 29 aliens, whom the shelter conducted to their destination, with the exception of two-, all went to the East End (19269-19283). Sykes, Dr. John Frederick Joseph. Medical Officer of Health for the Borough of St. Pancras for 17 years (13282-13283). Alien popula- tion has increased in last three census enumerations, though general population has remained stationary, viz., 3,889, 5,691, 8,156 (13284-13285). Foreigners reside chiefly in south-western corner of St. Pancras (13286). From Germany and German Austria, 40 per cent. \ „ France - - - - - 18 „ Italy - - io „ Switzerland - 7 „ Russia and Poland - - 6 „ Belgium - - - - 3 5, Other Countries - - - 16 \ 13,287 » / Occupations are connected with food, lodging, and clothing. Many are tailors, waiters, and domestic servants (13289-13290). The directory proves that many have taken English names, because from 981 names in the directory taken as a test case therq were 222 foreigners; whereas out of the enquiry at the houses, of 3,714 persone 1,300 were foreigners; so with the tenment houses, of the 1,300 foreigners, 309 were waiters, 84 tailors, 28 porters, 23 cabinet- makers, 20 servants, and the other miscellaneousANALYSIS. 131 Sykes, Dr. John Frederick Joseph—continued. (13292-13301). Out of a total number of 832 em- ployed in hotels and restaurants 329 were aliens. Of these 832, 236 were employed outside. St. Pancras. St. Pan eras is a residential centre, and overcrowding ensues, because, whereas in 1901 there were 1,886 fewer tenements than in 1891, there were 374 more persons. The tenements have been displaced by business premises (13302 13308). The baking trade is largely carried on by Germans, restaurants, by Germans, Italians, and French, the ice-cream vendors being nearly all Italians. Of 13 laundries eight are carried on by foreigners. In the tailoring trade 67 per cent, of the employees are foreigners (13309). The population of the whole of the Tottenham Court Road area is 24,000; of the south-west district 15,777 (13311-13315). Of 403 workers., 23 work and live in St. Pancras, 15 per cent, work in and live out, 61 per cent, work out and live in (13317). Foreigners come very little upon the rates, more in Ward 7, i.e., Tottenham Court Road district; relief given being chiefly out re- lief and asylum or workhouse (13318-13322). In the Tottenham Court Road Ward the birth rate and death rate were equal, viz., 19*3. Phthisis is very common (13323-13326). The small-pox during 1892 and 1893 wasi introduced by Swiss. Italian waiters, Sykes, Dr. John Frederick Joseph—continued. but witness doubts, even if there had been medical examination at the ports, because it might be latent. The foreigners were not, however, the greatest sufferers. They are better vaccinated. In Germany vaccination and re-vaccination are com- pulsory (13328-13337). German waiters, live together in one room, but the rooms are kept comfortable and clean. They are often very respectable men (13338- 13339). Thomas, Dr. Lewis. Was appointed Medical Officer of Health and Public Analyst to the Borough of Stepney in Decem- ber, 1899, but took office April 1st, 1901. Has been officially connected with the district as Medical Officer of various Boards for 15 years (5433 to 5439). Adul- teration : Has collected information respecting adul- teration in different districts, viz. : — 1. Iimehouse. 2. Mile End Old Town. 3. St. George's-in-the-East. 4. Whitechapel. Shops in which milk, butter, coffee, pepper, and mustard have been sold. (The shopkeepers are the persons who adulterate, 5833 (7)). Analysis. Shops. Number of Samples taken. Adulterated. Question J ews. Christians. Jews. Christians. Jews, j Christians. No. 1. Limehouse: Tooal Number of Shops, 312 - 75 237 24 135 6-25% 22—16-4% 2. Mile End Old Town : Total Number of Shops, 284 - 118 166 100 157 23—23% "12—7-6% ) 3, St. George's-in-the-East: i i ! 5440- [ 5459. Total Number of Shops, 225 135 90 85 53 32- 37'6% ■5-9-2% J 4. Whitechapel: Total Number of Shops, 290 - 213 77 ' 96 34 21—21-4% 10-29-4% Metropolitan Borough of Stepney : Total Number of Shops, 1,111 - 541 570 305 379 £2—27% 49-13% N.B.—These statistics are as between Jew and Chris- tian (5446). In, the whole borough, of the Jews 40 vendors were prosecuted and 42 were cautioned, while 26 Christian vendors were prosecuted and 23 were cautioned. The conclusion is that the adulteration amongst the Jews is not quite 50 per cent, more than amongst the Christians (5460-5463). The adultera- tion of pepper and! mustard is confined almost en- tirely to the Jews (5462). The figures represent (1) changie of ownership from Christian to Jew, and (2) starting of business by Jews. The Jews turn private houses into shops (5466). They have specially taken up the milk trade, whereby Christian milk sellers are displaced (5467 to 5469); e.g., Williams, who sold his business to a Jew (5470 to 5473). Cannot say if adulteration is increasing, because method of taking samples has altered, and the Food and Drugs Act is carried out more stringently. Previously the White- chapel Board had one special inspector to take sam- ples. He was therefore known, and forewarned, forearmed; now all inspectors are inspectors under the Food and Drugis Act, and the object of their visits is not known (5474-5476). Adulteration (with water 5833 (14) has probably increased in the milk trade, as the Jews have reduced the price from 4d. to 3d. per quart, deteriorating the quality (5477-5478). The adulteration of butter consists.in not extracting the water, 5833 (7). The general standard of articles has decreased, e.g., that of pepper and of mustard, the adulteration of which is confined to Jews (5479). Coffee 6144. is not adulterated, although largely used (5833 (9) ). Overcrowding.—Difficulty in the administration of the Public Health (London) Act is due to the fact that a notice must be served on the person who causes or continues a nuisance, or, failing him, on the occu- pier or owner of the premises. Some magistrates maintain that the occupier should be proceeded against. Has taken proceedings against the owner, but magistrate deals very leniently with him, because non-resident and ignorant of the nuisance (5480). Proceeding only against the person occasioning the- nuisance would put a premium on overcrowding. Be- fore overcrowding has been discovered the owner has been receiving extra rent which the tenants can afford to pay. High rents cause overcrowding, and vice versa (5482). The procedure for abating a nuisance takes five to six weks : (1) Inspector serves an intimation notice on occupier or owner to abate the nuisance ; (2) if not abated he reports to Public Health Committee through Medical Officer; (3) statutory notice is served demanding abatement with- in 14 days; (4) a summons is taken out made returnable within seven days, which magistrate may extend to 14 or 21. The difficulty of finding accom- modation makes some magistrates lenient. Mr. Dick- enson does not consider at all this difficulty (5484- 5486). The power of closing a house if two proceed- ings have been taken on the same house within three months is nullified by the impossibility to secure two convictions within the time (5486). If the time was S132 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Analysis. Thomas, Dr. Lewis—continued. t.—~ extended the fact of one prosecution immediately fol- lowing another would be thought persecution (548B). The sanitary inspectors have reported cases', and the Public Health Committee have always authorised proceedings.; They have visited houses between ' 6 . a.m. and' 6 p. tri, Magistrates'orders have never been Thomas, Dr. Lewis—continued. required. But for visits between 9 p.m. and 6 a.m. an order must be obtained, but magistrates never grant one; Evidence of nuisance is required for t^iis order {548$ to 5492). t Cases of overcrowding abated under the, EuJbJ.ic Health Act in the' borough of Stepney : — Jews; Christians. Total. Limehouse v 17 18.'.'\ 35. \ Mile End - - 41 1 42 St. George's-in-the-East - - - - ) From April 1st, 1901 to end of year. 173 .17 " 190 Whitechapel . up' 22 167/ Total - 376 58 434—of which 36 were in workshops. Limehouse - - - - - - 12,;,.!.., I 14 26^i Mile End - - - - - - "" 50....... 23...... 73 ) From January 1st, 1902 to June. St. George's-in the-East - - ' ^ ■ 1 69 Whitechapel - ................... 21......-............] I — 21, Total - 151 ! •38 189- -of which 3 were in workshops. Thus from April 1st, 1901, to June, 1902, 623 cases have been abated, 602 after notice was given, 20 after proceedings were taken (12 last year, 8 this year). Of these 20 cases 18 were against Jews and two against > Christians (5493—5512). Names and penalties ;jf : persons summoned (5513). Fine must be paid in Court (5516)/ The costs, if not paid at the time, must Jbe recovered by distress warrant. Costs are therefore seldom recoverable, and the burden falls upon the | Council. The taking out of distress warrants means ' . expense. They are therefore not taken out (5517-5523). Since April 1st has served Harris, owner of Booth Street Buildings, with 22 summonses, two for over- crowding and 20 for other nuisances, but they have . been quite ineffective. The buildings are the worst in the district. The Jewish Board of Guardians has refused to assist- any resident in the buildings (see 5833). They have 553 inhabitants, 349 adults and 204 children under 10 years of ' age. Isaac Israel and another of Bromheaic! : Street (hitherto a most respectable street, but now deteriorating, in Mile End) have been lately pro- * ceeded against (5525-5548). Proceedings againstover- ' arowding,only result in the nuisance being transferred from"one house to another, e.g., from12, Richardson Street1 to' 32, Bromhead Street (5560-5566). Byelaws.;; . T-^EIas Worked under Public Health Act, the old- bye- , • lawk,' with regjabd to houses let in lodgings,, being toof . cumbe^dme, nor have the new ones, so far'as tover- , crowding is concerned, improved matters. The new ones' are accepted by the ^ Council, and . awm#VjV;fc|Mi of Local . Clovernmen.^ , ; 'are "confirmed.) ', boaie 5 contentionJ has been L. the ex^p^oii:, { . clause -5 as! to vent. This gives opportunities for eyasiori, e.g., by the possession;of two rent books *-{71Ql$-719@yi one lowing, a higher rent, which woiMd feeing the house within"': tjie Exemption/ -<3iatise;and for showing; the actiial rent ,^;aid. , 'Tito the: Jaw is defeated (5567-5577). Th:-%e-l^ws.- "jthje. "keeper," %e,, . anyone ,. -wiEio! lets1 a hous& arid sublets, must keep; the • common passages and .staircase>s;^cl|an..J ^oce^ifegfr.. are^ tak^ri againist.lihe keeper, lbiit. in model dwel'ling- ., hOUM#^ whfcli oaMtibt be registered, against,the o\vner (5588).. -Booth Street, Building^ cannot be, registered, because' each tenement is a separate hou^e. Pro- • oeeftig^ere ther^Ore taken against Sie bwrier und^r the Public Act (alsp in the .case of" Waterloo Court,' 7157-7178). Sub-letting is necessary under the bye- iaws. If any of the separate tenements in model dwellings are sublet they can be registered under the bye-laws, e.g., in two or three cases.in Booth Street Buildings (5589-5603). The Stepney Borough Council has appointed two. special inspectors. Have hitherto been unable to put bye-laws into force, but have acted under Public Health Act. All districts prosecute under Public Health Act, not under bye-laws. (See also 7285-7297). Difficulty under bye-laws lies in the fact that before a penalty could be applied for the owner's attention should be called to overcrowding, though there is no legal obligation, whereas under the Public Health Act the owner's attention is called twice before proceedings are taken. The difference is that under the bye-laws no notice is necessary (5604-5608). The bye-laws can be evaded by a change of owner,ship, which may mean only of agency, as the agent receiving rents is deemed the owner. The house then becomes unregistered. The Local Govern- ment Board have refused to sanction an alteration in the bye-laws because they think a house once regis- tered is always registered. The magistrates think otherwise, and have dismissed cases on this ground (5^08-5612)1. 0at lengtjfi ^anctioned its; removal (5613-5618). . The pro-; ceeclings as to registration are,; (1) House is recom- mended to a Council, (2) the* Council registers it by resolution, the owner being able to appeal, The bye- laws only a$ply to registered houses (5621). Will give > bye-laws a good trial, but doubt tlieir efficacy. Other districts have not adopted them (5623-5624). The Coring;^u^cad denied* the, power1 of -lHXjali;u<)!vernr- ment Board- to insist upon an exemption clause, who have,' ' given, .way (5626-5629). ' When. Council came into jgower only 626 houses Were registered; , :>NoW 2,500 all over the district are measured and ready for registration under the new bye-laws > (5631-5635). The hew bye-laws get at the keeper, but he is often a man of .straw ; they should reach the. owner (5639). Overcrowding would exist in spite of aliens, but the aliens accentuate it, and to them is probably due the fa^t that though almost all over London the pressure ha§ decreased^ in; St%m-ey it: has enormously lite' cr^lel^;- But/' oiVQrcrowding^ as understood by the Lo^&oii^owafy Ooui^ci^ is different to that: dealt with by : th^ Pui4ic^,iH^|4 Act and the b^e-laws:. The former.deeiris overcrowding the occupation of a^rpom, of whatever size, by more than two persons; ' TheANALYSIS. 133 Thomas, Dr. Lewis—continued. , figures, therefore, of the London County Council are worthies^ to detect actual overcrowding, but they ; u • pro^e;.jthat at poor population is increasing, because those who occupy two rooms, are increasing (5648- 5655). The enormous influx from abroad, leading to ; i overcrowding, also increases rents (5659-5662). The „ / Census; figures giving 54,500 foreigners in Stepney are probably under-estimated, because Jews often assert ? . they ; are Englishmen*; ' and under-estimate because ^ i suspicious, of the cause of the inquiries (5666-5670). ■ Every ^Medical Officer* of Health in Lond&h has - given up taking proceedings under the bye-laws be- t cause- so eumbersotme* and the new bye-laws aire no !■......better. No. proceedings have been taken, by Chelsea, ; Hammersmith, Islington, Popl ar, Southwark, M'ary- lebone, « Hackney, Hampstead, Holborn, Stoke New- ' (. ington^ Bermondsey, -Battersea, Lambeth, fcensing- i ton, Westminster, aM Shoreditch under the bye-laws, a. but they have abated the overcrowding, successfully . jtserviMgjhotioes under the Public Health Act without «;; ^^hIavt0!^ a:- polioe-co'iti^ with- the exception of one fease^in Kensington and two in Westminster / ^>(5678^56^),-{ The ;Oountf Ooiincil has brought no •v j>res'SUr'ej with regard -I/to 5 the administration of th© sfeitary iair. ! The 'toehded bye-laws are prac- s Abated no case under them, but 145 cases under the <• Public Health Act (5687-5692). The constant inflow of ali&tis who are totally ignorant about the sanitary lAwiat first greatly inc^eases difficulty. They improve 'after avtiitte and) spread, but other ignorant ones arrive to take their place and cause overcrowding. The staff at present consists of 18 sanitary inspectors and seven clerks in the Sanitary Department, besides .^bout 18 or 20 men who disinfect, and assist the , SMi^ary inspectors in measuring ujp the houses , (fe695^56Q9). The expenditure of officials m-th'e.'S'ani- ^ry Department amounts to £4,320 (5704). If the ..suggestion'.,ta-.register every house in the district was adopted 30 extra sanitary inspectors would be re- quired at the estimate of one to 1,000 houses (5705- 5708, 7183-7185, and 7225-7228). N.B.—A tenement in a block of buildings is not counted in relation to th-! provision o-f an additional inspector (72.21)., Wit- ness would only register the wtirst houses, and tfiinks that the 2,000 already measured up and prepared for registratibirij would be sufficient (5724). Section 94' of "the1' iPuiblfe Sealth Act of 1891 makes it compulsory * 'Mthpnti^'1x>'.m;afee,bye-lawsfor the ' regMr^titm df houses let ih lodgihigs,' which/1^hsis not beeiid^e • by the Stepney Borough Council. Clause 4 of the "bye-laws only provides that the keeper shall furnish to the -Council " information necessary for X>f 'snioh? house•'by the Council," but it does not appear to be a bye^law for registration (5725-5735). But bye-laws will never do away with o^ercrowdini^ ' nor the Public Health Act altogether (5737-£573$). Xny increase, natural or from outside, nriiSt acoentuate it, seeing that the number of houses; is fixed, nor will a steady enforcement of the law solve the problem. It might mitigate the evil (5739^5742). Stepney has done much more than other districts, bust proceedings.-- hia-jre not effected much Change in People turned out .Of one »'hOus®oVercrowd^^ to {5754-5751)^ # At first &Iiehis are f ar below- the native people in habits and Standard of life* Theyi improve rapidly, but as othersare ©on- j.tinually pouring iii! there is always a permanent sub- stratanof people living under horrible conditions,, i prod^ilig ^vercrowdih^ (5775-57M).:. The death rate < depends^ upon, age distribution. •, 'S|atisttic& shew that the more between the ages of 10 and '45 to 50 the lower v will be the general death-rate. Therefore immigrants • 'lower -the general death rate on account of their ages (5785). One reason for infantile mortality being low is that Jewish mothers suckle their baibies longer than English mothers (5787-5795).^ The Jews are not immune from phthisis, as ' *sihpw that though the general * ^deaith rate; in Whiteohapel was - lower . than the^ -rest of' the^disffeict, the death rate from phthiisis was mueh hime^ (5796). A 1 ^g^r huml)ei: of occupiers of lodging- -h^se& knd shelt^psi %re ini Whitecjhapel ihianelse- where,£hut those -who, coming from another, district, • -ar^ktt !toiipitais .or theintfirliiary are deducted.,^;More efesS M-^^Mech^ei/than elsewh^^.ll^^with +Jvziv ■-rrt'a.+i/v • • Y'o.lyi-iiTtcs;-**' fi»nm 6144. Thomas, Dr. Lewis—continued. the district are at least 1,778 ih number, employing 15,017 Jews and 5,307 Christians. These do not in- clude people working in factories and home-workers. (Witness' supplies a list (5803)), the return being the r esult of a house-to-housevi&it of the sanitary inspec- tor under the new Factory Act. The distinction of religion1 is. returned, but no distinction between English born and foreigners. The greater percentage are foreign Jews—-i.e.,not born ih England—(5803- 5809). The list does not include outworks or fac- tories (5813). A factory is given in the Factories and Workshops Act as a place where mechanical power is used ; a workshop where two or more per- sons ar e era ployed with no mechanical power (5814- 5815). As overcrowding cannot be done away with under the present circumstances, witness would divert the stream of foreigners (5817-5830). If summary proceedings without any preliminary notice; could be taken, and if the owner could be ianprii^ned after the second offence, and if magistrates exacted tth[e i full penalty, and if greater responsibility was thrown upon the owner, overcrowding might be diminished (7200-7208). A report shows, that overcrowding is distributed all over the district (7210). The great difficulty is the detection4 of, overcrowding, but if the landlord was held directly responsible the detection in four or five houses in the street, would probably suffice (7214-7215). Witness disagrees with Mr. Foot that the decision of Weatheritt v. Cantley practically excludes most of the houses from the operation.. of the bye-laws (7237-7239). If the keeper of a lodging- house infringes Bye-law No. 2 by allowing overcrowd- ing he cam be prosecuted and fined for the first offence £5, -and in case of continuous offence 40s. for eaA>„_ day after notice to the Ooirincil, Distress warrant can . v be levied against him, and he can be sold up (72^1- .. 7248). But the keeper who rents the house and sub-,, lets at a profit is a man, of straw, and has gone before , the distress warrant can be effected. The over- crowding lodgerisi may remain (7249-7255). Stepney will enforce the bye-laws as much as possiMej and • with'this object have appointed two special inspectors: The great alteration desirable in the bye-laws is that the Council, instead of going to^-the keeper^ sho-uM go to the landlord. Landlords, whether acting by . their agents or through themselves, should be pri- marily held responsible. N.B.—The vast majority of landlords in the. East are men who own a few houses, are always on the spoty know what is going on, and are the real cause of overcrotwding. ' • The Council lhserted. a clause in the' bye-laws to this effect, but' the Local Government Board would not sanction it (7261-7280). * -j c . Thompson, Edmund HargbeaveS. 1 ^ ^ Represents the Alliance of Cabinet Makers'"Asso- ciations, consisting of 250 members, of whom only 10> are Jews (14675-14678) in Leeds, where there are 3® English and seven Jewish workshops (14643-14645). : The greener'comes into the'tr&de, ''and1 ^ets' anything , from 3gd. to 7d. per hour, • Working«very^ long? hours. He has crowded out the- apprentice-serving workman (14647-14664). Jews do n6t remain in the Alliance. An employer will dismiss a man1 to-get him baclij . at i a lower i price (14666-14671). Ther^ is considerable ih^me work (14672-14674).- Ih the upp^'if'lb^££.iiic3ies'' -oi^ ithef tradeithere are no Jews ;; about 50 per cettt.' WOrfeC Jng in the cheaper trade; are: foreigners ; iii Whole- sa-le^trade all are foreigners (14680^14694): tJiiskillbd foreigners: are sent for,5 and the sub-division is' so( great that any greener can learn the work of a sectibn at once. The Rabbi looks after the interests of the greener (14695-14701). The articles* are. badly made, -and very cheap (14704-14706). t^^wodto,^thomas. - .....; : ..Fqi- 12 years wa#; employed at ,the Beofetea Gas- ...Wrks of .tho &as liighifc, aaid Coko (Wwwiy. • O,,], ,,aifew-.Kussiam Pole? w^.^ng^ %heraaaxmt We nwrnber: working therfe is very large Wi»,n.'«v .gives :Gasp ol a fo^mae being fe,WKr' !' ^ ^e'takeii'^iflB preferen'ee tb Englishmen (1762-1784). s 2 Analysis.134 ROYAL COMMISSION^ Analysis Tyrrell, Dr. Francis Ashley Cooper. An occulist appointed by the London School Board in the Brixton and Tooting district, and surgical officer to the Royal London Ophthalmic Hospital, City Road (3666-3669). Refers to cases of trachoma '; sent to him by the Jewish Board of Guardians; 'many Polish Jews suffer from it, half his patients being aliens, who are subject to it. It arises from ' uncleanly habits. It is also prevalent in German schools. Witness thinks aliens on arrival should be " ." examined. The shipping companies stop cases from proceeding to America. Most of the cases witness ' ' has seen have come from the East End (3666-3715). ' See also evidence of Dr. William Lang in regard to Dr. Tyrrell's evidence (20587-20616). ..Vaughan, Arthur Powys. Since 1897 one of H.M. Inspectors in North of • • London area, which comprises a fairly large alien ■ population of various nationalities; was previous to •• 1897 in the East End (13111-13117), A district in- 1 " spector is not brought much in connection with work- ' shops, these being left to assistant inspectors, but deals more with factories, and generally supervises (13118-13129). From the sanitary point of view English and alien workshops are much the . same. Complaints in the north of London are few, about 3 per cent, of the whole number (9,000) of workshops, and 3 per cent, of alien workshops, which number about 1,000. Alien workshops when bad are very bad. If an inspector sees» people working in pro- hibited hours through a window he may prosecute, but it is: very difficult to get a conviction (13131- 13144). With regard to wages, the greener at first earns little, but he soon improves his position (13145- 13148). With regard to hours, owing to the Sabbath being on a Saturday, and to other holidays, Jews do . ,not work more in. the aggregate than natives, but their hours during the day of work are longer. Wit- ness has not had many cases of Sunday labour, e.g., of women and young persons (N.B.—Male labour on Sundlay is not prohibited) (13149-13159). The Jew . compares favourably with the native, has great per- tinacity, and is abstemious (13160). Apprentice® are becoming scarce in most trades. The London tailor does not care for them. The alien, however, is more prone to bring up his children in his trade, e.g., in th© cabinet trade English boys are difficult to procure, but Jewish boys are not so (N.B.—Jewish boys are , 'often apprenticed by Jewish Board of Guardians, ; 13237) (13161-13165). See also 13193-13205). The ladies' • tailor trade is entirely in the hands of foreigners, and is sprinkled about North London (13165-13168). Slop tailoring {i.e., ready-made clothes) is principally in the hands of aliens, but the bespoke trade is shared with natives (13169-13170). Applique embroidery for mantle® is made entirely by aliens (13171). (N.B. The mantle trade has been introduced from Germany, y 13210-13212). The furriers' trade is very largely with , aliens (Russians; and Pole® chiefly) 1(13172-13173). (See also 13187-13192, 13228-13236). Furniture trade is largely in the hands of aliens in Shoreditch and Bethnal Green ; certain articles of furniture are, how- . ever, entirely made by Englishmen (13175-13177). The walking stick trade is largely in the handis of foreigners (13178). The baking trade is largely in the hands of Germans (13180). The displacement of English labour is rather indirect, e.g., while the English hands have remained stationary in number, the aliens increase because they supply the increased demand (13181-13182, 13206-13214, 13206-13216). Witness agrees that the cheap production introduced by foreigners is a benefit (13217-13236). Vincent, Col. Sir Howard, m.p., As M.P. for one of the divisions of Sheffield,, has taken a great interest in the subject of alien immi- graition, and, in conjunction with Mr. Ridley and others, introduced a Bill into the House dealing with the power of excluding and deporting criminal aliens (22398-22402). Witness suggests that in order to pre- sent the immigration of criminal aliens into this country, officers should be stationed at all the major ports (see 22404-22405, 22417-22419)—that is, at London, Hull, Grimsby, and Harwich—with rpower to make inquiry, and at other ports pro- sper officers should be posted, and that any person r-they had reasonable cause to suspect might be de- ALIEN IMMIGRATION: Vincent, Col. £ir Howard, m.p. gained lor inquiry, or questions mighit be put to them. This would have a deterrent elf act (22403). Most im- migrants have papers of some sort relating to their identity, but those who had none should be sent to an immigrants' home, not ais a prisoner, until inquiries had been made (see 22447-22448). This home should be supported by a poll-tax (see 22449). Theise foreign criminals are well known to Scotland Yard, but there is no possible means of keeping out an individual who means to. get in by fraud. He might commit himself, however, in trying to do so (22406-22414). Does not think our Consuls could do anything, as our consular system is defective (22415- 22416, 22420, 22453-22461). Deals with the diffi- culty of deportation should foreign nations object to receive their criminals back (22423-22430, 22431- 22432). The same difficulty would have existed in repatriating 450 persons rejected by America and re- turned to this country in 1902, but it was accom- plished in all but 47 cases (22430). Witness in his Bill desires to deal with the class of criminal who come here for the sake of crime (22433-22435). Does not think it impossible to identify foreign criminals, but admits there are many difficulties in doing so (22436-22444). An English criminal convicted in France would be sent back to England at the expira- tion of his sentence. Witness does not think that foreign nations would raise any objection to us de- porting criminals, (22451-22452, 22464-22468). The great danger in all countries is the expulsion from one country to another of bad characters (22462- 22463). Vincent, John. Was employed in Stepney as an enumerator in the Census of 1901 (698-701). Describes method adopted (708-722). Thinks that the figures were understated (737); and that many foreigners returned themselves as English (746, 751). Many could not speak English (771). But instructions were given to them in Yiddish (773). Walmer, Alfred, A Dane by birth ; has been 59 years in England, and has lived in the East End of London, since 1863 (5156-5162). Has been in the police force and other capacities (5163-5168). Gives instances of displace- ment of English in Lydia Street (5172-5174). The feeling is very bitter (see 5212-5219, 5224-5237). The aliens trade together, and the shopkeepers have seriously suffered (5175, 5193). Jews are buying up the property and increasing the rents (5194-5208, 5266-5269). The displacement of natives is seriously injuring the dock labourers (5221-5222). The stan- dard of living is low with aliens (5238-5244, 5254- 5259). They deceive the Census authorities as to their numbers (5245-5253). The Jews are a sober race (5261). They make a lot of cheap and shoddy clotheis (5277-5280). Walter, Phillip, Lives in Oxford Street, .Stepney, and has resided m the neighbourhood for 63 years. When he first knew it it was inhabited by the respectable middle and working classes, but in the early fifties foreigners began to introduce houses of bad character, and this process went on until 1887, when Mr. Frederick Charrington, taking advantage of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, swooped down upon them, and in a few months the neighbourhood was clear of them (11438-11452, 11455). Christians and English Jews then occupied the houses from which these people were driven, but of late years they have been steadily pushed out by the alien, who can afford to pay a high rent because he sublets. Denies that the alien were the means of introducing a higher moral tone into the East End (see 11455-11461). They learn in the Eastern part of Europe that, so long as they are in England, they will, never want a meal or a roof over their heads, because the English Jewish charities will help them (11453-11454, 11470-11471). All the Eng- lish people have gone from witness's neighbourhood except four (11462-11465). Landlords paid to turn people out, causing great hardships (11466-11469, 11473-11474). It is as necessary for the Englishman to live near his work as for the alien (11470-11475). Aliens 25 to 35 years of age may earn 30s. per week by working furiously, but when he is 40 he is used up (11476-11481).ANALYSIS. 135 Walters, Be v. Charles Ensor. A member of St. Pancras Borough Council, and ' manager of the local group of Board Schools (13073). Has worked for a,bout eight years, mainly in the region of Cleveland Street and Fitzroy Square, which is very cosmopolitan, as a minister o± the West London Mission Organisation, founded by the late Bev. Hugh Price Hughes (13074-13076). Wliich operates not only in the Fitzroy Square district but also in Begent Street, Piccadilly, Soho 'Square, and Somers Town (13096). Foreigners having in- creased in the district, it being the seat of their work, and the disorderly element also flock- ing there, overcrowding has resulted, many of thei houses being those of ill-fame; hence there is a -contest between the decent workers and the disorderly people ; and the English are being displaced, to their -disadvantage, as they also desire to be near the West End houses, by high rents, which are a consequence of disorderly houses (13077-13086). The inhabited houses in. St. Pancras have decreased since 1891 by 206; the population has increased by 1,715 (13087). la the Cleveland and Fitzroy districts there is also a decrease of the one, with an increase of the other .(13088). The West End traffic in vice is organised by the foreigners demoralising the district; the foreign women are largely increasing, and many foreign men live on their earnings (13089-13094). Many robberies and assaults take place in these houses (13095). The Bev. H. H. Lax describes in a report that the district around Soho has become a " veritable ghetto," full of immoral aliens ; and that one large block of build- ings, formerly occupied by English, is now exclu- sively occupied by Jews ; and that Anglophobia is most pronounced in Soho> (13098). Sister Faith, who works three nights each week around Piccadilly, describes the increasing number of foreign women <13100-13101). Witness suggests that all aliens proved " to be engaged in the maintenance of brothels should be ordered out of this country to their own country; the police to see, they leave (13104-13110; and that all wishing to settle shall produce some certificate of character (13105). If foreign countries reciprocated we should still benefit (13108-13110). Ward, William H. Vaccination officer of Betlinal Green for 22 years (18303-18306). Gets a return of every birth in the parish, and accounts for the same to Local Govern- ment Board in connection with vaccination (18309). , Contends that the small number of illegitimate births ■amongst foreigners proves that the aliens in the East End are very moral; their primitive habits must not be taken as indecent; they are law-abiding, and not - aggressive ; they obey the law regarding vaccination, much more readily than the natives, and are more cleanly ; Jewish women attend to their homes ; they do not deal exclusively with foreign shopkeepers, the cause of the displacement of native shopkeepers being the large shops started in the East End. The working class benefit by living outside ; the City is • expanding eastwards, with the result that workshops .and warehouses are built, causing competition for rooms, which means high rents. Many British work- men have an inborn dislike to foreigners, whose settlement in the East End is really an advantage ; the tendency has been for the better classes to move but of Stepney; that it has. not deteriorated by the •substitution of foreigners! proves their worth (18310- 18312). WTiiteehapel is the best vaccinated district in the whole of London (18314). Case of Louis Simons, a rabbi, concealing small-pox of son, and being fined in Stepney (18322). "Weber, Lewis, Of Isaac Weber and Sons, boot manufacturers, of 124, Whitechapel Boad, business of 40 years' standing, employing 200 hands, two-thirdsi of whom are English Jews and Christians (19284-19191) (see also 19347- 19364). Bestriction of foreign labour would displace many British workpeople (19292). Onl- women and • girls' boots and shoes are made to any extent in London and the only branches in which foreign labour predominates are the lasters and finishers. The other "branches consist of about 90 per cent. British. English will not last and finish the cheaper class of boots. In ^pite of home manufacture there is a competition from the Continent of inferior shoes, of brown pulp board with a minimum of leather, selling at 3s. lid., a shoe reber, Lewis -continued. Analysis. equal in wear, but not so attractive looking, can be ' made in London at 2s. lid. The export of these latter to the Colonies is immense (19292-19302). Though the cost per dozen has decreased, wages have not, as these boots can be made much quicker. The memel or mock kid side-spring shoe or boot sold at 2s. ll^d., and another kind only partially manufac- tured in England, have been replaced b^ a machine- sewn boot, sold even lower through the institution of pulp boards imported from the Continent, tons of which are used daily, costing 10s. per cwt., for leather at 57s. per cwt., in those parts of the bo ots which the wearer does not reach. The hours of labour in the manufacture of these at home are long, not to secure a living wage, but to provide against slack times. As the clickers are English, and the lasters and finishers foreign, slack times for the foreigners mean slack times for the English. The shoes which were paid for at 6s. to 10s. per dozen are not the shoes now paid for at 3s. per dozen, the latter being of an inferior kind and much easier to manufacture. The former are still made by British, yet the foreigners on the cheaper shoes earn as much. The foreigner works quicker; the Englishman does better work. The only real com- petition of the foreigner is in Whitechapel Boad and Commercial Boad; the competitors being foreign masters, not the workmen, so far as wages are concerned. The foreigners' lasting machine- sewn boots, turning out 30 pairs a day, can earn 6s. 3d.; some, turning out 34 per day, earn 7s. Id. Lately machinery has displaced a certain number of hand finishers, native and f oreign. The limited supply of native labour is often the cause of long hours amongst foreigners. The enormous demand shows that foreigners do not only make rubbish. The cheap men's boots sold at 2s. lid. to 4s. lid., in which foreigners have no hand, prove that they are not responsible for lowering wages; cheapness in both women's and men's boots being due to machinery and saving in materials (19302-19310). The cheap London slipper made by foreigners, retailed at Is. 9d. per pair, is a fair article, and superior to those turned out only by British workmen in towns near Manchester retailed at 7^-d. per pair. Finishing machinery being used by foreigners in Stepney is wiping out home work (19311). Witness produces sample shoes, one of Swiss manufactured entirely of paper and one manufactured in East London, for comparison, and showing that high-priced foreign shoes are not so durable as cheaper shoes made by the foreigners in England (19312- 19324); also a rough shoe retailed at 8Jd. near Man- chester made by British for bedroom and house use (19330-19335); also a Continental shoe, formerly sent in shiploads, only bottomed here, but extinct since advent of foreigners (19336- 19342). The London Union statement in 1890 fixed 3s. per dozen as the lowest price (see' also* 19580), but by the Boston lasting machine five men and a boy* could turn out 1,320 pairs in a week of 54 hours, bringing the- cost to about Is. 9d. per dozen pairs. The foreigner working by hand if he gets 2s;. 3d. does not work as cheap, therefore, as the machine (19343- 19344) (see also 19519-19522). Men's strong boots are not made in the East End, nor in Northampton, but round about Kingswood, Kettering, Bristol, Welling- . borough (19345-19346). Machinery has greatly checked home work, but still a considerable amount exists in the East End (19369-19377). There are no apprentices in the boot trade since home work has diminished, and in spite of bills applying for lasters and finishers, they are difficult to' obtain. Clickers are obtainable. These latter are English, and must be able to read and 1 write English, because their orders are written, out. By the foreigners fostering the cheaper class of shoes, English clickers benefit (19381-19406). Not many slippers, but a large number of fancy sew-round shoes, are made in London. Page's is the only slipper estab- lishment (19413-19418). Witness specifies number of hands required for the manufacture of 1,000 pairs of common shoes (19420-19433). The English employed in the factory are employed on better work; foreigners last and finish the cheaper goods (19434-19451). The import of shoes now from abroad is very small, chiefly in the better class from Vienna, Hungary, and Swit- zerland (19452-19464). The Is. 11-^d. shoe, which is largely exported, is the cheapest shoe made here (19470-19475). The memel or mock shoe formerly made was not preferable to the pulp shoe now made, nor more durable, though it was rivetted (19484-136 ROYAL COMMISSION ON Analysis. Weber, Lewis— continued. _ 19502). The: use of pulp is not detrimental to wear ^aM there- is a great ; demand' for the 'pulp ;shoe " (19610). A good workman caii tUrn'out 36 pairs of * - ^shftes^ard&yf (19511). Witness explains that; he left the °v 'association bfemployers feecau.se the indoor workshop y Agreelnent' prevented him obtaiiiiiig sufficient labour v ••iioi^>M^-:itf6r6ksiii*gl- l>usih5e§is (19528-19537). The ieeling " a^aiii&t ft&§tfMn©ry*is hot so great iii"London as in ; Leicest^jf (19544-19545). ; The export trade is increas- 00in/g enoriiiM The hbcit trade is •vt> ^ssentialljr' ?ar v;,iseasdniiis-;HrMfe (19558 1955^). Boot '^machinists are ail outdoor"workers iii Londbnt}(19591- ^19592)!; dhiefiy married wttMen' (19593). ' Thos£ who midoniewithout' a knowledge of the; trade can only be 0-^atight finishing,1 and the^r would not receiVe less £han ;i 12s!'v He ^Mghit ^kfter four inonths earn" 18s. (19603- : 19635).':- Finishing machinery might be a', substitute for ¥li'e^ MboU^ if 'Engli^h l^boUr douTd fce procured to • ^%d*lcit/%tit it Cannot in London, find there* is also the ^fa&t tftait hi&6hiiiery is*hard to get (19616-19653)• iif; . -ii':-:! i!v-; .. • " - : - • - : ;i 55THATLET? I^OMAS, William...... , ' v is. anme!mber of. theExecutive of the London , „j Cotters', O^rade Union, which is composed ijioif lb##*. ,Jei\ws^andv Gentiles, and includes both the contyact and the wholesale; branch; is 350 strong, of ivcwliem, 20 per cent, are Jewish operatives ; this , is u not a nation'al one, Bristol^ 3 Leeds, ~s|^nde Government cannot make in Pimlico it puts: out to v contract, aoid asks certain firms on the contract listr ^0, tender.;; the lowest. tendws^w©M')geneiy;ly &ccep;teve, no ^practical knowledge (13698-13713). A fair contractor •.'sfrould,;mak© for.3s. to 3s. 6d. ; but rOTrougli ! alien labour he could reduce the price to ^isJ 10cL the. Governanent encourare this low price by acc©pt|ng lowest tenders.; the ,• contracto£ . agrees with., the GpVernment to pay a trade union rate of -wage.; •;^v: fulfils. this with regard to the cutting branch, but not with regard to the machining ; 0this lias been represented by;, a deputation of tlie^'union recently to jMr. Hayes Fisher, but so long as . the a contractor who. employs Jow f class alieii labour ^fehe^ evi^ will continue ; .^he ^I^iifrs, ^inioli^'can5^^look" after their own interests, but; ill the case of' aliens and'greeners, who are not'protected ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Whatley, Thomas William— by a union, are disorganised, and who adopt sub- division of labour, the protective clauses are evaded (13714-13735). In the wholesale branch prices have been falling, . bfoth with -• '.regard ;to;;; cutting ^nd machining; a cutjier, who m I872 oould earn £2 a week, now earns with, difficulty 3dsr. v (13736-13757). l^he cutters' un.ion h^ nonobjection to machinery,, and ap^recjfte, |equaliy with . Leeds' tailors^ .13|754) the^band knife mapjiinie, as used in Pimlico, and the chalking machine ;, basting and pressing arg factory processes (13740-13747). Cutters do not see the greenps until they appear, as cutters in some low- class "firm, working at non-union wages (13747). Jhe uiiioii has no obj ection to the foreigner coming, but suggests the efficiency test; the Jewish operatives are equally affected (13749-13752). The. memiber^hJLp of the f uiiion; h^s been decreaswig, but at thg. fJ^st, ^et- iiig, owing ^'to; alie,n firms .starring, up, 4£>( new ,inemfeersr 10 being Jewish operatives^ j oined. There are between 700. and 500 cutters, in ^do^/(13756)r~-'Madii^eiT 1 ajid increasing the production'(13757 13760), ; There should be Goyemment inspectors, as there are County , Council inspectors, ^ho would prevent a contractorr while paying fair wages, to a protected;cutter, reduc- ing those, of the unprot4ect|0d-r^chinist, th.e union has no .objection ;to low prices •sQ.r.loiig. ,as they are* the; result, of machinery; ,and Cjareful management (13761-13774), The inspectors should be practiccii men from the operative ;cl.ass (J-3775-13776). Th« fair wage clause, though f^ir, ^hq^ijd .•be^subatitTited by the trafle union clause,; ^hereby, tjip sunionL would fix a fair rate, the, worker making use of machinery ecbiiomicaL manageinent, and quality and cost beini* factors in, the question ; , cheap labour means ^ bad work (13777-13778). /,. But with alien labour ..this ; woul,d ;J>e impossible^ as the Jews jiav©;np real pniongi Prices ;: if, they would organise, let tfeenit come ■'and^^^rtioipaf©, .in the trades; n.ow thpy onlyj displace- nativC ^worker^,; to, a r.large>: extent in the! wholesale, but'in t|ie fcoh'tract branQn at present only in a small degree (13779-13783 and^/13830 and 13837). ; J iThe ^Lo^don Counaci:; but unskilled labour should be subjected to a. pecu- ^^yy "test (13794^1.330,9). Atjports such, as Dover the omoer must use his discretion. Of course, jbhe. test scheme might be dodged," but dodges produce- , counteracting regulations (15812-13823). The pecu- niary test would have this advantage, that even if th© alien obtained, say, £5 from a charitable society, he would ,show that he was more or less a respectable man. If. he had saved it he would , show qualities of thrift. He would still be a greener and a competitor^ but he would not be obliged to take the first under- paid job offered. Bo % the test would mitigate the evil (13824-13829). It is doubtful that the shipping companies would change their ports of arrival, as the trade of immigrant carrying is not very remunerative (13833-13840). < The test ait the' port of origin might bev m^de by a, British' Gonsul giving a, certificate of moral ^haraoter to the Unskilled labourer, and to the man who claims to be a tradesman a test of trade ability, '. JjChis;might reintroduce the passport system, bujj^^passpor^ am^ neOess^ary1 in ^Russia;' V A pdlitidal offenders should .not ;be;^Mfeluded.v ■ ThevRoumanian Governmentmight wish^ to get rid{#f an undesirable subject, and give him a pa>sspq1$§;• ,J*i|d7xinder^ the present system the man could come as aii undesirable to England, but we are not obliged t<> receive, him because the Roumanian Government wislies te get rid of him! (13^41-13871).' : v; ; White, Arnold ; ,;. IEn a18841 ^studied' social condifeLOli of Ea'st and ^Soutih ijLondon: a,nd! emigration probleiii; Visitetf -SdUtb t/Africa^'to plant- cclbnies ;of« Englis>li'• -Wbrkilxeini. 'Saw :tbati ?.t|x^se^;«. wcaicm%h^>w'e®pe^-r^)3la.ced> ^inr Efeglaaoti . by ioEreignemi ^Attempted to raise public interest iiin; -qiietsrl2elf > of •-?a»li^nr •" -".Ggtye evidence J^eforr&: ^weatin^f and) Alietn ;3tanigration Commitriiees. , A^i^edf teorganis© Society fdr Suppression: of Itmmi- /;gration>■ •&£<: ^Destitute > Aliens: -"^isifceii ; Biissiia five i?imeis to report oiirv cc^ndition of fJews r in thatANALYSIS. 137 White, Arnold—continued country, arid otherwise- assist in carrying out Baron .fipsiqli's pita foir planting colonies di:.Russian• $ews \biOf Argentina Saw that tte crux of the alien pro- lis primarily racial and international ; orthodox ^il&efcreiws refuse to- assimilate (329-332; 920-924, JL151). Physical efficiency of the Russo-J ©wish immi- grants can be maintained, at a much lower cost tiian that of the native-bom (333). Prison diet and cells of England are luxuries to many aliens from Berdi- 43heff and Home! (336). Desirability of obtaining more satisfactory evidence as to quality of iinini- : ^®tjg than that of 1888, 1889. Belief of Russians their national'self-preservation requires the op- ^r^kion of the Jews (337-339). Conditions m Rou- nuania. (340-341). . Popular notion in Russia that toviiah influence there is undversally e and from France in the sixteenth ana seventeenth centuries. Evil physical and moral e&wb of alien immigration upon native.- population /399-405). Alleged untrustworthaness of Board oi Trade, returns of alien immigration, and tuius of alien population , (405-451, 1016-1020). .Aifegei impossibility of enforcing the English law r^atinff to overcrowding, owing to the habits of the &Ji0ii immigrants, wh<} think nothing, of sleeping^ ten, off twelve in a room (452-466). Rise in rents at East ^;of London (467-470). Desire of alien immi- grants, who have 'settled in England and are.; doing ,. weM,- io prevent further, immigration (472), Aliens Ihave been rejected .by United, States authoritiesL not to be. received, in England. Hebresw.oom- mamty in United States alleged to have petitio*^d- S. • 'free immigration (473- 4?4T The Jewish Bo&rd of Guardians'issued a cirr •oiilar oil June 13th, 1883, deploring the result oTthie imi&irfbri of undesirable alieM (902-903). W_it- adknits that- alien pauperism; has greatly de- ctefcedsiixeea888fbutAis is probablv due;to Jew« ^^hirities (914-919).; Asserts that the Je^ from Ros- si^ and Poland arfe highly orthodox '925). Witness, only Objects to xindesirables ; suggests; medical 'ex- afflainatioti as in United States, which there has fo&Ktt preventive {see 973-976)> a consular certificate of fit- ness Kfor^ iemigratidif (see' 1040-1050); and that immi- f granits-s^ould not beinany way^riinirialis,?or engaged"; i^f^y>Uiidesiraible'trades :y also 1tte-;2T!on-Mm3is'six>n of: -was filthy, of wife deserters, arfvof th^ destitutby if theirf^mpetitabn would- m- rmfe native labdur,'[but Would not exclude' one simply . "bedau^ he is,- poor <935-952, 1055-1056). Witness re- fers-to, a list whichrthe Board of Trade used to pub- Ii^lpLitii€ES>e people whose>appearrknce%as remark- abSvaS peculiarly filthy." " Describes' his close its doors in 1895 owing to displacement of English. Shop subsequently taken over by foreigner, and ex- actly ^aine class of business carried on as formerly. Albert Square also cited as instauce.in support of disr ; placement of English (7551). Police protection of aliens at wharves necessary, because 14 or 15 years ago they were attacked and robbed on landing (7552-5): Oondiitiion of aliens on arrival very filthy. Witness had office near shelter, and saw them frequently (7556-7). Testifies to bitteraess of feeling against aliens in district caused from the fact that they are dis placing / 'n-atiye population (7555).;: '. -No doubt as .to great, overcrowding existing in district ? (7560). ' tween'1880 and 1890 efforts made to improve moraJ138 ROYAL COMMISSION O! Analysis. White, Mr. Stephen— continued. 'T™ and criminal conditions of Stepney; many lodging houses pulled down for improvements in Spitalfields; all brothels about Ladylees Grove and district at- tacked by Mr. Charrington, of East End Mission, in 1887; improvement only temporary; immoral houses and prostitution as bad as ever, foreign prostitutes substituted for English (7561-7). Gaming bouses practically unknown previous to 1881; have multiplied since then; many have been raided and hundreds of pounds in fines inflicted, but with no effect; houses kept entirely by foreigners, and used almost exclu- sively by them; frequenters of such houses practically untouched by the law (7568-75) (see 7648-51). East End thieves previous to advent of aliens were mostly " watch-snatchers" and women known as " trippers up/' who preyed on drunken seamen. Aliens more scientific in their -methods of thieving, adopting forgery to a large extent; in recent Bank of England case foreigners employed (7576-80). Criminals some- times sent from own country to England. Elbone, a Russian escaped murderer, discovered accidentally by witness and colleagues, extradited and sent back; had been in England about a year; was convicted of keeping gaming house (7581-5). Illicit stills continue to* exist in spite of many having been raided during last 20 years, resulting in destruction of thousands of gallons of liquor, infliction of fines amount- ing to thousands of pounds, and some heavy terms of imprisonment; quality of liquor very bad; largely used during holi- day time and in gaming houses (7586-90). General state of crime worse since great invasion of aliens, and police in consequence more busy. Many alien crim- inals, including organised bands, make Whitechapel their headquarters, though working outside London and on the Continent; instances cited of aliens resi- dent in Whitechapel having been taken in custody outside (7591-5) (see 7637-8). " The Christian Home," Whitechapel, one centre for foreign criminals, mostly Germans; many arrests effected there by witness and police (7596-7600). Inhabitants of Christian Home are not Jews (7601). Increase of foreign crime com- mented upon by magistrates and grand juries, as also by Judge McDonnell and Mr. Loveland Loveland; cases taken to Clerkenwell Sessions (7602-5). Illicit stills in police return entered under head of "Hawk- / ing illicit spirits or working stills." No- cases oc- curred in 1898, 18 cases in 1899, in one of which wit- ness was engaged; in 1900 there were seven cases, and three in 1901: all above cases dealt with by " H " Division ; return made for " H " Division, over whole of which witness had jurisdiction (7606-25). Witness admits probability of his having dealt with cases out- side the " H " Division since his jurisdiction took him outside to anywhere in East End ; such cases not given in return for " H" Division (7626-32). " H " Division of Whitechapel much worse and more foreign than other divisions in East End (7633-6). During 15 years preceding 1895 duty of witness to meet" aliens on landing, when in 1895 police started visiting the boats ; considerable im- provement noticeable in latter period (7640-1). German aliens distinguishable from Russian by their superior cleanliness; improvement in cleanliness in the former dates from cholera epidemic in Germany (7642-7). Greater activity displayed recently by police in attacking gaming houses; latter until within last few years unknown in East End ; foreigners inveterate gamblers (7648-7651). Charges of robbery and lar- ceny between 1892 and 1900 have steadily decreased in number (7652-5). Receivers of stolen goods lliostly foreigners, and of better standing than thieves, and not within scope of inquirv (7655-7). Occupation of costermongers pursued by many of these foreigners; great activity on part of police in regard to them lately; 94 persons charged with obstruction in 1894, as against 449 in 1901: witness has no knowledge as to whether different instructions were given between those years, and is ignorant of judgment in Queen's Bench Division; witness' Department was Criminal Investigation Department (7658-61). Prostitution, in witness's opinion, has increased between 1892 and 1900, in spite of statistics showing 344 persons charged in 1892, as against 228 in 1900 : witness also believes .majority of prostitutes to be foreigners, although figures represent the charges in ratio of seven British to one foreigner. Opinion based upon general observation and disparity may be accounted for by the fact of foreigners adopting English names and vailing themselves "British subjects"; police accept ALIEN IMMIGRATION : White, Mr. Stephen- continued. ' statement, and make no further inquiry as to their origin (7662-83). Crimes of violence as prevalent now as formerly; during last 20 years as many foreigners have been executed for capital offences as English (7683-4). Inquiry made by police as to man's name and address in serious offences, robbing, or anything of that kind (7685). Wigram, Maurice. President of the Sheffield Hebrew congregation (20076), is in the furnishing trade (20078). Between. 700 and 800 Jewish inhabitants in Sheffield; nearly all are foreigners (20086). They come chiefly from other towns, with the knowledge of a (trade (see also 20092-20096). The majority are tailors, machinists, cabinet-makers, plumbers, painters, paper-hangers, and watchmakers; they thrive fairly well, and have no adverse effect on local wages or hours of labour (20079). Wages have increased in the furniture trade, while the produc- tions are cheaper, owing to a. larger demand for home- made furniture, which used to come from America (20080-20085). The Jews live well, there is no desti- tution amongst them, and the Chief Constable gives them a good character; they do not overcrowd in Sheffield (20085). The percentage of foreigners is ex- tremely small in Sheffield (20089-20091). The Jews have increased the furniture trade in Sheffield (20097 20107). Only bespoke branch of the tailoring trade is carried on in Sheffield (20018). Foreigners seem, to have go ie more into the furniture trade (20120).. Williams, A. T., L.C.C. Is member of L.C.C. for the division of Stepney, and is on the Housing Committee (1570-1572). As he became acquainted with the condition of Stepney, changed his opinion, and became persuaded that the alien immigration was distinctly deleterious (1573).. A visit to Stepney is necessary to realise the true position (1574). Witness quotes instances of shop- keepers ruined by alien competition (e.g., a milkman: and a leather merchant), and how foreigners will not deal with English, as instructed by the Rabbis, and how aliens increase the rents (1575-1589). By sparing economy and hard working, immigrants have become landlords, and sometimes men of wealth (1591-1598). By very low living and long hours aliens put on the market cheap articles; thus they interfere with the principles of trade unionism (1599). Aliens prevent the solution of the housing problem in the East End by (a) ceaseless influx and (b) natural increase. Some streets where aliens were unknown in 1888 are now filled with them (1599-1603). The policy of the L.C.C. in adopting Part III. of the Housing Act^—i.e., acquir- ing land and building—is nullified by the constant stream. Unrestricted immigration means increasing rents (1604). The sanitary conditions are worse in the case of aliens, who are inferior in every respect to the natives (1605-1610). The Boundary Street scheme, which was one of enormous expense (N.B.—£60,000 of the cost was debited to the Improvement Commit- tee), has benefited aliens. Foreign and English Jews now occupy the houses. In 1898 (date of the scheme) new accommodation was not provided for tenants who were dishoused; thus the old population gets scat- tered, and these great, schemes attract foreigners (1611-1621). In Stepney a large displacement by aliens in also going on, accompanied by increased rents. Witness gives instances, e.g., Lydia Street (1626-1640, 2986-2992). The exclusive habits of the aliens also drives natives away (1641). The alien can pay in- creased rents by overcrowding. Overcrowding is now under the Borough Councils, which often cannot ob- tain closing orders through the lack of other accom- modation for aliens displaced (1642-1658). Alien im- migrants seem easily to acquire money to become land- lords. They prevent the L.C.C. from acquiring pro- perty by demanding exorbitant figures, preferring lucrative hovels like Lomas Buildings (1659-1669, 2917- 2919). The enormous number of alien children need- ing education causes demolition of houses by the School Board. Schools, factories, railways, hospitals accentuate the housing difficulty by attracting- foreigners (1670-1677). Foreign charitable funds, and a recent regulation of the Russian Government to dis- pense with military service, in the case of those who can obtain medical certificates of unfitness, which are granted very freely, tend to swell the stream of immi-ANALYSIS. 139 Williams, A. T., ~L.Q.Q—continued. grants to England (1678-1684). Witness gives fur- ther instances of increased rent, overcrowding, and displacement, inflicting great hardships on natives (1685-1690). Stepney is the only district in London where overcrowding has increased during the last 10 years, 10,496 more persons living there under over- crowded conditions in the same number of houses. L.O.C. deem a room occupied by more than two as over- crowded—i.e., if . three occupy a room it is overcrowded by one, not by three (1691-1697). The fact that out of 70,000 people only 5,000 are entitled to vote proves the extent of alien immigration (1698-1705). Witness, in dealing with the question of landlords and dis- placement, cannot distinguish aliens from Jews (1707- 1715). The peremptory habit of the Jews in giving notice' to natives to quit who are weekly tenants greatly offends (1722-1723). Also their disinclination to associate with natives; -also their disregard of the English Sunday (1724). Also the filthy condition of their living (1725-1730). Their persistent overcrowd- ing by evading the sanitary inspector is notorious (1731-1733). Witness shows how the L.O.O. were un- able to* acquire property in the Warner Street area, which was filled with Italians, owing to the expostu- lation of the police against their dispersion (1734- 1741). Also how -a large number of Polish Roman Catholics are employed at Becton by a foreman who excludes Englishmen. Intense bitterness is caused thereby, and also in the East End. Natives say that the aliens defy them, pointing to a letter from a Jew— Achi Britli—in a local paper which favours restriction (1741-1761, 2944-2965). 'Witness gives instances of fraudulent bankruptcies, by means of which many aliens make money. They buy on credit after having for some time paid cash, then become bankrupts and start again (2899-2904). Many are attracted by what they hear of England, and many intentional trans- migrants stay here, it being to the agents' interest that they do so. They also abuse Jewish charities to the indignation of English Jews. Sir Samuel Mon- tagu's dispersion scheme will alsoi attract. Witness, however, is not anti-Semitic (2905-2916, 2974-2975). Witness instances several cases of displacement by aliens, giving streets showing that the British popula- tion is being ousted (2920-2933). Fire insurance com- panies are very chary as to insuring aliens. Rates are high, but Englishmen can get insured (2934-2943). Witness admits that the rates for insuring Manchester goods are very high, but does not admit the analogy (2977-2981). The' census is inaccurate, because chil- dren born of foreign parents in England are not counted, and because information is difficult to obtain (2956-2962). The attitude of the Jewish Press in stating that the agitation is anti-Jewish, and not anti- alien. makes it difficult to obtain witnesses-, especially as pressure is brought to bear upon them and threats are used. The most reliable evidence could be ob- tained from Jews, but they dare not give evidence (2962-2972). Williams, Dr. H. Is Medical Officer of Health for the Port of London (6036). Appointed by the Corporation of the City of London (6037). Reports forwarded by him to Cor- poration are forwarded to the Local Government Board (6038). Entered service of Corporation in 1892, and was stationed at Gravesend" as Boarding Medical Officer until June, 1901 (6039-6040). Is now Senior Medical Officer of Health, and no longer en- gaged in boarding (6041). Visited, during service as Boarding Officer, every ship coming from foreign ports /(6043-6044). All vessels are boarded; which come from ports where certain exotic diseases prevail (6045). In addition, every case of illness which is reported on arrival of ships at Gravesend is investi- gated by the Medical Officer on duty (6046-6047). In- fectious eases. landed at hospital at Denton (6048- 6049). In the event of the discovery of exotic disease all passengers would be closely inspected, and their names and addresses furnished to the Medical Officer of Health of the district to which they were pro- ceeding (6054-6060). .Nothing is done with regard to aliens unless there is a case of infectious disease on board (6062). Powers of Medical Officer, to board and detain vessels and examine persons on board (6069- 6083). Persons reported by master as ailing are ex- amined with view of ascertaining whether they are suffering from an infectious disease or not. If they 6144. Williams, Dr. H.—eontinued. are found to be so suffering a general examination is made of all persons on board (6084-6087). Cases of small-pox how dealt with (6088). Persons reported by masters as suffering from ordinary illness fre- quently found to be suffering from infectious disease (6089-6091). Specific instances of this—small-pox on s.s. " Easington " (6092), on s.s. " Georg " (6094-6096). Bad accommodation for passengers on s.s. "Georg" (6096-6100). Had aliens on "Georg" been medically inspected at Libau it would have been found that some of them were suffering from small-pox, and those who were so suffering might have been stopped (6101-6111). Aliens! usually arrive in fairly good state of health (6112-6114). Their personal condi- tion in 1892-1893 was extremely offensive, owing to their want of cleanliness (6115-6117). Powers of medical officer to inspect passengers arriving in a filthy and unwholesome condition (6118-6138). No power to deal with, people in a verminous condition (6139). Nearly all the aliens who arrived by s.s. " Georg " on the occasion when small-pox was found on board had body-lice upon them (6140-47). Sines 1892 aliens brought by German ships have arrived in less unwholesome condition. Improvement probably due in part to desire? of masters to avoid having ships delayed, and in part to German quarantine regula- tions (6148-70). Absence of provision for proper carrying of passengers on ships bringing aliens from Libau (6171-6175).—Extract from witness's report to Port Sanitary Committee on subject of Foreign Im- migrants (reports on way in which men, women, and children are herded together on the Libau ships with no proper provision for sanitation or decency); calls attention to dangers arising therefrom, and suggests, that action be taken with regard thereto (6176). Fiirther as to state of Libau ships (6177-6184). Phy- sique and general appearance of aliens from Libau (6185-6188). In 1892 and 1893, during prevalence of cholera in Russia,- an arrangement was made under • which the aliens arriving from Russia were handed over by the inspectors of the Port Sanitary Authority to the representatives of the Poor Jews' Shelter, the authorities of which undertook to receive the aliens at the Shelter, to personally verify the addresses given by them, to conduct them to those addresses, and to furnish to the Port Medical Officer, and to the Medical Officer of Health for the districts to which, the aliens proceeded, a daily list of all persons leaving; the Shelter authorities, however, did not carry out their-part of the arrangement (6189-6200). Overcrowding on the foreign ships carrying aliens from Libau cannot be dealt with under English law (6201-6202). Representations made to Danish Consul and proceedings taken in Denmark against the masters of these vessels; the masters were fined for overcrowding, but, on appeal, decision was upset on ground that, as these vessels were bound from Libau to London, and did not touch at a Danish port, the Danish courts had no jurisdiction (6202-6203). Opinion of witness that aliens should be medically examined at port of departure to prevent embarkation of persons suffering from infectious disease, and then, the foreign boats bringing the aliens should be made to conform to English law with regard to accommoda- tion, etc. (6208-11); also that medical officers should have power of entry on all vessels with regard to in- fectious diseases, such powers to include power to detain the vessel for the purpose of inspection (6212- 6216). Were aliens brought under similar conditions by an English vessel the master thereof would be liable to proceedings under Merchant Shipping Act (6217-6218). The least restriction leads to improve- ment in conditions under which aliens are brought (6219-6221). Hardships inflicted on aliens by keep- ing them on board after arrival (6222-6226). Were it made known that a certain standard of cleanliness and physique must be conformed with, in default of which the aliens would be detained on board, the result would be that masters of vessels would be more careful in their whole proceedings (6229-6230). Has no unfavourable criticisms to bring forward in respect of German vessels (6231). Aliens' low standard of cleanliness and sanitation tends to lower the standard of sanitation in the districts to which they go (6232- 6238). Thinks that all dansrerous infectious diseases coming in one vessels should be subject'to exactly the - same restrictions as plague, yellow fever, and T140 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION : Analysis. Williams, Dr. H.— continued. cholera; gathers from reports of responsible men. that present severe epidemic of small-pox in this country was introduced from Paris (6239-6243). Recalled.—:Since he previously gave evidence has noticed improvement in sanitary condition of vessels arriving, from Libau (6970-2). Attributes this im- provement to his recent report on condition of Danish vessels having been sent not open on Satur- days (18521-18523). In respect to overcrowding, the sanitary authorities should be active, and have mores ~ inspectors. The Public Health Committee have xefused to apply for two more (18524-18536 and 18591-18593). Witness is much opposed to< home ~ work, for which he does not. hold the foreigner respon- sible. The Borough Council should use more actively their powers under the Workshop and Factory Act (18537). That there is very little injurious disease amongst foreigners proves that their' habits are not so dirty as suggested by some (18537-18539). Witness _ has never heard that a native has lost work through a foreigner taking it, shoemaking and tailoring being more or less the foreigner's trade, the goods being exported to South Africa (18540-18542). They are successful because they take trouble to please their customers (18549). Witness is in favour of Sir Howard Vincent's. Bill, but. would not exclude any- one other than a criminal (18672-18709). Weight, George, Factory Manager of Charles Baker and Co., tailors, of High Holbomi, who do a large retail trade in Wright, George—contiwiiedL. Analysis. men's .and boys' middle-class clothing. They give-- out a largie amount of work to Jewish master tailors. The consumer benefits by the cheapness', but not at the cost of the wages, as they are rising (19654-19655). Witness describes conditions' under which the Jewish aliens work for his firm. The ready-made trade has been absolutely made by thetm; this commenced at the time of the German-Franco War (19663-19675). The aliens, to a great extent, have displaced female labour as regards coat work (19677-19679). The goods are made of English material (19683). Very few Jews are cutters (19688). Witness's) firm employs 300 to 400 outside workers (19698). There is always great shortness of English labour, but mot of alien (19699- 19708). Describes the method of sub-division (19722). There is more day-work than piece-work now in the trade (19728). Greeners earn very little at first— about 2s. per day ; they take the place of apprentices, who do not exist now (19729-19735). Witness's firm employs 100 women for trouiser-making (19753-19756). Denies that the garments are made from shoddy cloth (19757-19758). Natives will not work with foreigners (19767-19779). Previously to 1870 the clothes worn by men were women-made articles (19784), and were much more primitive ; now they are chiefly made by machine processes (19785-19791).142 ROYAL COMMISSION ON ALIEN IMMIGRATION. The following Witnesses gave Evidence at Meetings held in Stepney. Name. Axelrad, J. - Ayres, Mrs. - Booth, W. Bradford, Wm. Cavalier, A. W. Coles, W. Cox, W. J. - Faber, J. Francis, J. Gilmore, J. W. Holditch, R. - James, Mrs. F. Johnson, J. W. Kilner, S. E. - Kreamer, J. A. Pam, J. - Parkes, R. Pearce, S. J. - Rose, W. A, - y, w. - - Shead, J. Simmons, Thos. Thomas, W. C. Trott, W. Turner, F. Tyler, A. Walker, W. - Occupation. Naturalised English- man. Midwife Printer - Undertaker - Milk Dealer - Sawyer Journeyman Plumber - Milk Carrier Haberdasher and Post- Master. Undertaker - Butcher Lamp and Oil - Proprietress. Representative of the British Brothers League. Solicitor Pianoforte Ttmer - Shoemaker (an English Jew). Deputy Chairman of the British Brothers League. Mineral-water Seller - Carpenter and Poor Law Guardian. Umbrella Maker and Hawker. Cabinet Maker - Employee at Beckton Gas Works. Tobacconist - Fruiterer and Green- grocer. Boot and Shoe Maker - Basket Maker Caretaker Subjects referred to. Overcrowding, Increase of Rents, and Key Money. Displacement of Labour or Trades and Consequent Suffering. 9281-9283 9626-9642 9608-9609 9382-9391 8729-8755 9246-9261 9616-9625 9645-9674 9599-9607 9451-9469 8883-8946 8817-8838 8763-8811 9366-9381 9214-9240 See under Johnson. 9206-9212 9681-9699 9693-9696 9298-9305 8612-8674 9098-9101 & 9118 & 9132-9146. 9558-9564 9054-9066 8628-8632 & 8635-8641. 9292-9297 & 9322-9327 & 9331-9338. 8727 8979-8988 9088-9096 & 9122-9131. 9552-9557 & 9580-9591. 9048-9053 8651-8683 9000-9040 8525-8552 8620-8626-8641 8947-8966 Bitterness of Feeling. 9426-9428 9272-9273 9665 8862-8866 9319-9321 & 9328. 9097 9574 9488-9495 8696 8633-8634 Habits and Character of Aliens. 9396-9425 9262-9267 8839-8844 9305 9318 9501-9511 8627 8967-8978This book is a preservation facsimile produced for the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. It is made in compliance with copyright law and produced on acid-free archival 60# book weight paper which meets the requirements of ANSI/NISO Z39.48-1992 (permanence of paper). Preservation facsimile printing and binding by Northern Micrographics Brookhaven Bindery La Crosse, Wisconsin 2015