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UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA
AT LOS ANGELES

PIRCELL, John Baptist, R. C. archbishop.
Iin Mallow. County Cork. Ireland. 26 Feb., 1800 •
;ni Brown county, Ohio, 4 July. 1883. lie emi-
[iteil to the United States in 'l818. and entered
hbury college. Baltimore, where he taught. In
10 he was admitted to Mount St. Mary's. Em-
ttsburg,^^ nd, after receiying minor orders, fin-
ed his ■ . 'ological course in the Sulpitian col-
e, Paris, ile was ordained a priest in the cathe-
il of Notre Dame in 1826. and in 1827 was ap-
nted professor of philosophy in St. MaiT's col-
e, becoming president in 1828. The progress
t this institution made during his presidency
racted the notice of the Amei'ican hierarchy
I he was nominated bishop of Cincinnati lie
: consecrated on IS Oct., 1833. At the time of
appomtment there was only one small frame
uau Catholic church in the city, and not more
n K; 111 the diocese, while the church property
■ yalued at about $12,000. He founded acade-
iti(l schools, organized German congrega-
•id built aconyent for the Ursulines. The
Lil*er of Koman Catholics had increased from >
JO to 70,000 in 1846, with 70 churches and 73 j
In 1847 the diocese of Cleyeland was
•ut of that of Cincinnati, and placed under i
1 -diet ion of another prelate at his request.
~ made an archbishop in 1850, with four
II bishops attached to his see, and being
■• ni lxr,i, he received the pallium from the
wn hands. He at once set about found- I
it was to be one of the chief theological
:es of the country, .^b,unt St. Mary's of the
Me i.rcsidcd over his first provincial coun-
■^0.), and held a second in l8o8. It wa-
"le to meet tlu; wants of the new congre-
Hith the resources at hand, and this led
tinancial embarra.ssments that shadowed
Mg years of the archbishop's life. In 186S
i'.ilion of new sees had limilcd his diocese
lat |.art of Oliio south of latitude 40" 41' but
8tili contained nearly 140.000 Koman Ca'tho-
IM iNOi* he att.'iided the Vatican council,
ve in its deliberations, nn.l. although he
-■1 the declaration of the infallibiiifv of the
,h<- at once subsf-ribed to the doctrine on its
It ion. Ills golden jubilee was celebrated in

1876 with great splendor. A crisis in his i

^mci,,k.s on whieh business slHuddlM.;
vyien the crash came. K.hvard i'linvll d
"'l^''" l..;ar . Itwasdiseoveredthat tl e n
.•ss reaeiwd ,H,,rly ^-l.OOO.OO,,. T ie ,1
"ancialo,;erationstlmtledtoitNN si ■
"'\''''''l'''.'V'"'''<>^''"'HHH,,^htof..ha .n,. I
b sl.op „, h disl,on..sty or evil in/eM^
Hi.V ol a bishop k„,,wn as the "cailir.lr
;""""'"■;. I" .^I.OOf. or .^.-i.OOO a y ., ,

.-"y-hvey..,.rs,. bishop b..for,i^ :,';..; I
\<>ilecl on to a.rept any pari olil,,. .„,„

f;;;;''\*^.'«' '•''<• '''',rnirig|.,nd i.v U. ;.

P"<';dw,h, he whole. His pn,.s-,s gav ' mm
"• ''is golden jubii,.,.: ,|„. ,',„,, ,|,.a ,. '
""".•"A^'.'iianlabi.iMsliiMlions. He, b' vd ■

w >ui<i implv sonic repro..„.|.. jf,. „.«s ,.iv,.„

"•I.I" or instead. aiKl Ivtired |., ,. l" i s, i '

;;''"".'<y. AthisdealhllMM.un>l..ro I ,,, ,

^^n,lh.Mlioeesethatli.originallv;:;
lan lialfa million. (I,,. pri..sis nun, I,..,-,..! (Hi

1 ".:';;' drf- -^-'"-'-piMr.:,;-;;',;;^'

ascwn .|,,\s discussion with Alexander C-im
'"''•.•" «;np,,l,|ic|y defended (lini'ii,:'

;;;;■';';" onitor. Moh. discussio;,' ;' • ;

md widely circiilatcl: i|,c latter as - The
Ie igy and Free Thought " (1870). His her
"♦"•ns were "J.cctures an.l Pastoral Jet
'Diocesan Sliiinf,.. \,., i t. '" ^i^\

A DEBATE *--

*^ ON THE

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION:

HELD IN THE SYCAMORE-STREET MEETING HOUSE, CINCINNATI,
FROM THE 13th TO THE 2181 OF JANUARY (SUN-
DAYS EXCEPTED,) INCLUSIVE, 1837,

BETWEEN

ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, /

OF BETHANY, VIRGINIA,
AND THE

RT. REV. JOHN B. PURCELL,

BISHOP OF CINCINNATI.

TAKEN DOWN BY REPORTERS, AND REVISED BY THE PARTIES.

"Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits : for many false prophet*
have gone out into the world."

" If he will not hear the church, let him be to thee ns the heathen and
the publican." — Je8C9 Christ.

CINCINNATI:
STEREOTYPED & PUBLISHED BY J. A. JAMES & Co.

1837.

■i. »

' ■ V.

*^•^ V.*'- W

Entered According to Act of Congress, in the year 1837f

By J. A. JAMES AND CO.,

in the Clerk's Office for the District Court of Ohio.

We the undersigned, having sold and conveyed to J. A. James and Co., of
Cincinnati, for a certain sum per copy, (to be paid by them to us, or to our or-
der, and to be appropriated to two public charitable institutions, as agreed on
between ourselves,) for all that shall be printed; the exclusive right of printing
and publishing the DEBATE on the ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION, held in
the Sycamore Street Meeting House, Cincinnati, from the 13th to the 21st. of
January 1837, inclusive, between ourselves, and taken down by Reporters, em-
ployed by the said J. A. James & Co., and revised, corrected, and approved by
U8. And we hereby assert that the edition or editions published by J. A. James
& Co., or by their authority, and revised by us, must be considered the only cor-
rect and authorized editions of said DEBATE.

CiNCipnyATi, Feb. Ist. 1837. t JOHN B. PURCELL,

Bp. Cin.
A. CAMPBELL.

I . ... ..

TO THE PUBLIC.

The Publishers being well aware of the importance of obtain-
ing a full and correct report of this discussion, have spared no
Of pains nor expense to effect this object.
</j They employed two gentlemen well qualified as reporters.

cs: From the joint notes of these, they furnished each of the

~3 parties with a copy of his part of the report for revision, with
the express understanding, that nothing should be added or sub-
tracted to make their speeches different from what they were

m when originally delivered.

^ After being thus revised, and before being put in type, the
whole report was transcribed, and the speeches of each inter-
changed ; and when printed a proof sheet of all was sent to
each, for his last corrections.

Believing, that by this means, the desideratum sought, has
«> been obtained, this work, is now commended to an enquiring,
u intelligent, and reading community.

i THE PUBLISHERS.

< Cincinnati, Fch. 1837.

4G14ai

INTRODUCTION.

To introduce the following report to the reader, we lay be-
fore him the correspondence of the parties, which immediately-
preceded the debate.

LETTER FROM MR. CAMPBELL.

Cincinnati, Jan. 11th, 1837.
Bishop Purcell — Respected Sir:

At two o'clock this morning, after a tedious and perilous journey of
ten days, I safely arrived in this city. The river having become innaviga-
ble in consequence of the ice, I was compelled to leave it and take to the
woods, about two hundred miles above. By a zigzag course which car-
ried me to Chillicothe and Columbus, sometimes on foot, sometimes on a
sleigh, and finally by the mail stage, I accomplished a land tour of two
hundred and forty miles, equal to the whole distance from Wheeling to
Cincinnati.

After this my travel's history, I proceed to state, that it was with pleas-
ure I received cither from you or some of my friends, a copy of the Daily
Gazette, on the 22d ult. intimating your fixed purpose of meeting me in a
public discussion of my propositions, or of the points at issue between Ro-
man Catholics and Protestants. This, together with your former declara-
tions in favor of full and free discussion, is not only in good keeping with
the spirit of the age, and the genius of our institutions, but fully indicative
of a becoming confidence and sincerity in your own cause. This frank and
manly course, permit me to add, greatly heightens my esteem for you.

Now, sir, that I am on the premises, I take the earliest opportunity of
informing you of my arrival, and of requesting you to name the time and
place in which it may be most convenient for you to meet mc for the pur-
pose of arranging the preliminaries. It has occurred to mc, that it would
be useful and commendable to have an authentic copy of our discussion,
signed by our own hands, and j)ul)lishcd with our consent ; and that it
might have all the authority and credit which wc could give it, it would bo
a2 ▼

VI INTHODUCTIOX.

expedient to sell to some of the publishers in this city, the copyright, and
let them employ a stenographer or stenographers to report faithfully the
whole matter.

It will also secure for such a work a more extensive reading, and conse-
quently a wider range of usefulness, and I have no doubt, be most accep-
table to our feelings, and every way reputable, to devote the profits, or the
proceeds of the copyright, to some benevolent institution, on which we
may both agree ; or in case of a difierence on a fitting institution, that we
select each an object to which we can most conscientiously assign all the
profits of such publication.

In order to these ends, it will be necessary, that we timously arrange all
the preliminaries, and as many persons are now in waiting, I trust it may
be every way practicable, during the day, to come to a full understanding
on the whole premises.

' Very respectfully,

Your ob't. serv'c. ^

A. CAMPBELL.

BISHOP PURCELL'S REPLY.

CiNciKiTATi, 11th Januart, 1837.

3j&". Alexander Campbell — My Dear Sir :

I sincerely sympathise with you on the tediousness and peril of your
journey from Bethany to Cincinnati. This is truly a dreadful time to
embark on our river, or to traverse our state. The sun's bright face I
have not seen for several days ; I hope when the forth-coming discussion
is once finished, our minds, like his orb, will be less dimmed by the clouds,
and radiate the light and vital warmth without which this world would be
a desert waste.

If it meet your convenience, I shall be happy to meet you, at any time
in the morning, or in the afternoon, at the Athenaeum.

Your proposition respecting the sale of an authentic copy of the discus-
sion to a publisher, and the proceeds, all expenses deducted, applied to the
benefit of some charitable institution, or institutions, meets my hearty con-
currence. And I propose that one half the avails of sale be given to the
" Cincinnati Orphan Asylum," and the other half to the « St. Peter's fe-
male Orphan Asylum," corner of Third and Plum streets, Cmcinnati.

With best wishes for your eternal welfare, and that of all those who sin-
cerely seek for the truth as it is in Christ Jesus, I remain

Very respectfully yours,

t JOHN B. PURGELL,

Bishop of Cincinnati.

INTRODTJCTION. Vll

The parties met in the Athenaeum at 2 o'clock, P. M. of Jan.
11th., when after some debate on the question, Tflio shall be
the respondent ? they finally agreed to the following

RULES OF DISCUSSION.

1. We a^ee that the copy -right of the discussion shall be sold to some
bookseller, who shall have it taken down by a stenographer, eind that all the
avails of the copy-right shall be equally divided between two such public
charities as Bishop Purcell and Mr. Campbell shall respectively designate.

2. That the discussion shall take place in the Sycamore-street meeting
bouse ; and it shall continue seven days, exclusive of Sunday, commencing
to-day, (Friday, 13th) froni half past 9 o'clock, A. M. to half past 12, and
from 3 to 5 P. M., each day.

3. Mr. Campbell shall open the discussion each session, and Bishop Pur-
cell respond. During the morning session the first speech of each shall not
exceed an hour, nor the second half an hour. In the afternoon each speaker
shall occupy only half an hour.

4. This discussion shall be under the direction of a board of five modera-
tors ; of whom each party shall choose two, and these a fifth : any three of
whom shall constitute a quorum.

6. The duties of the moderators shall be to preserve order in the assem-
bly, and to keep the parties to the question.

t JOHN B. PURCELL,
A. CAMPBELL.

In order to meet, as far as possible, the arrangements entered
into for conducting the contemplated debate for seven days, Mr.
Campbell, according to agreement, sent to bishop Purcell, on
Thursday morning, Jan. 12, the following statement of the

POINTS AT ISSUE.

1. The Roman Catholic Institution, sometimes called the 'Holy, Apos-
tolic, Catholic, Church,' is not now, nor waa she ever, catholic, apostolic,
or holy ; but is a nect in the fhir import of that word, older than any other
sect now existing, not the ' Mother and Mistress of all Churches,' but an
apostacy from the only true, holy, apostolic, and catholic church of Christ."

2. Her notion of apostolic succession is without any foundation in the
Bible, in reason, or in fact ; an imposition of the most injurious consequences,
built upon unscriptural iind anli-srri[)tural traditions, resting wholly upon the
opinions of interested and fallible men.

3. She is not uniform in her faith, or united in her members ; but muta-
ble and fallible, as any other sect of philosophy or religion — Jewish, Turk-

Viii INTRODUCTION.

ish, or Christian — a confederation of sects, under a politico-ecclesiastic

head.

4. She is the " Babylon" of John, the « Man of Sin" of Paul, and the Em-
pire of the " Youngest Horn" of Daniel's Sea Monster.

6. Her notions of purgatory, indulgences, auricular confession, remission
of sins, transubstantiation, supererogation, &c., essential elements of her sys-
tem, are immoral in their tendency, and injurious to the well-being of soci-
ety, religious and political.

6. Notwithstanding her pretensions to have given us the Bible, and faith in
it, we are perfectly independent of her for our knowledge of that book, and
its evidences of a divine original.

7. The Roman Catholic religion, if infallible and unsusceptible of reforma-
tion, as alleged, is essentially anti-American, being opposed to the genius of
all free institutions, and positively subversive of them, opposing the general
reading of the scriptures, and the diffusion of useful knowledge among
the whole community, so essential to liberty and the permanency of good
government,

A. CAMPBELL.
CiwciKiTATi, 12th January, 1837.

DEBATE

ON THE

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION.

REPORT.

The parties met according to appointment, on the 13th January, 1837, at th«
Sycamore Street Meeting House, at hall' past nine o'clock, A. M.

MODERATORS.

Messrs. Samuel Lewis, THo.-vrAs J. Biggs, William Disney, John Ro-
gers AND J. W. Piatt.

WILLIAM DISNEY, CHAIRMAN.

Mr. Samuel Lewis, liavingcaJlerl the meeting to order, read the rules of th«
Debate, as agreed upon between the parties, and the propositions advanced by
Mr. Campbell for discussion. He requested the audience to refrain from any
audible signs of anprobation or disajjprobalion, as it would interrupt the debate.

Mr. Campbell ttien opened the debate as follows : —

My Christian Friends and Fdlow-Ciiizens —

I appear before you at this time, by the ffood providence of our
Heavenly Father, in defence of the truth, and in explanation of the
great redeemir.g, regenerating and ennobling principles of Protestant-
ism, as opposed to the claims and pretensions of the Roman Catholic
church. I come not here to advocate the particular tenets of any
sect, but to defend the great cardinal principles of Protestantism.

Considerable pains appear to have been taken by the gentleman
who i.s my opponent on this occasion, to impress upon the minds of
the public the idea that he stands here in the attitude of a defender
of Catholicism, and fo represent me as its assailant. I am sorry to
say that even some Protestants have contributed to give that color to
this debate; for I saw in this morning's (Jazette an article, in which
I am represented as conducting a crusade against the Roman Catho-
lics. Its editor appears to have his sympathies morbidly enlisted in
their cause. He is very sympathetic indeed, in bebnlf of the Roman
Catholic religion. Every agony the mother cliurcli feels is a pang
to him ; for every groan she heaves he has a bottle full of tears ready
to be poured out. 1 will not stop to enquire whether they are politi-
cal or religiotis tears. I have to do with the worthy gentleman here,
who has represented me ;is having volunteered to come forward with
an attar-k upon the Caihojic ciiurcb.

I need scarcely inforrn that |)nrtinn of my audience, who were pre-
sent at the last meeting erf the (College of Teachers in this city, that
60 far from its being true that I made an attack in the first instance,

2 9

10 DEBATK ON THE

upon the Roman Catliolic church, the gentleman did first assail the
Protestants.

He says in the Gazette of the 19th of Dec. 1836, thatlamabold and
wanton challenger; but a word of comment on this document will
shew that it is quite the other waj'.

The issue was made in the first instance in the College of Teach-
ers. You will recollect that when Dr. J. I.. Wilson read an oration
on the subject of universal education, the gentleman arose, and in that
Protestant house, and before a Protestant assembly, directly and pos-
itively protested against allowing the book which Protestants claim
to contain their religion, to be used in schools. He uttered a tirade
against the Protestant modes of teaching, and against the Protestant
influence upon the community. This was the origin of the dispute.
Had it not been for the assertions made by the gentleman on that oc-
casion, we should not have heard one word of a discussion.

It is true that the propositions just read may present me in the at-
titude of what he is pleased to call an assailant of the Roman church.
But the question is — how has the controversy originated 1 And let
me ask, how is it possible for the gentleman to prove that, because,
a year ago, I made some answer to an attack on Protestantism from
the state of Illinois, and called for some more reputable antagonist,
that on this account he did not assail Protestantism, and that I am
the assailant in this case's Does my having been plaintiff' in that
case make me necessarily plaintiff' in every other case 1 Does my
having told him that I stood prepared to discuss the question at large
with any creditable gentleman — [Here Mr. C. was interrupted by the
moderators as not speaking to the point.] I submit to the decision
of the moderators. I thought it due to myself, that the public should
know precisely the attitude in which the gentleman and myself stand
in this matter. I stand here as the defender of Protestantism, and
not as the assailant of Catholicism. 1 wished to exonerate myself
from such an imputation. But as the gentlemen have decided that
we proceed at once to the question, let us begin and examine the first
proposition. It is as follows :

"Prop. I. The Roman Catholic Institution, sometimes called the 'Holy,
Apostolic, Catholic, Church,' is not now, nor was she ever, catholic, apostolic, or
holy ; but is a sect in the fair import of that word, older than any other sect now
existing, not the ' Mother and Mistress of all Churches,' but an apostacy from
the only true, holy, apostolic, and catholic church of Christ."

As this is the place and time for logic rather than rhetoric, I will
proceed to define the meaning of the important terms contained in
this proposition. The subject is the Roman Catholic Institution.
This institution, notwithstanding its large pretensions, I affirm, can
be proved clearly to be a sect, in the true and proper import of the
term. Though she call herself the mother and mistress of all churches,
she is, strictly speaking, a sect, and no more than a sect. We now
propose to adduce proof to sustain this part of the proposition.

In the first place, the very term Roman Catholic indicates that she
is a sect, and not the ancient, universal and apostolic church, the mo-
ther and mistress of all churches. If she be the only universal or
Catholic church, why prefix the epithet Roman ] A Roman Catholic
church is a contradiction. The word Catholic means universal — the
word Roman means something local and particular. What sense or

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. tl

meaning is there in a particular universal church ? It is awkward on
another account. If she pretends to be considered the only true and
universal church of Christ among all nations and in all times, why
call herself Roman] To say the Roman Catholic church of Ameri-
ca, is just as absurd as to say the Philadelphia church of Cincinnati,
— the London church of Pittsburgh, — the church of France of the
United States. The very terms that she chooses indicates that she
cannot be the universal church.

It will not help the difficulty to call her the Church of Rome. These
words indicate a sect and only a sect, as much as the words Roman
Catholic. They signify strictly, only the particular congregations
meeting in that place.

The Roman Catholic historians endeavor to reconcile this discre-
pancy of terms by saying that, though those particular congregations
are meant, in their larger sense the terms are used to designate all
those congregations, scattered throughout the world, who are in com-
munion with the church of Rome. Thus testifies Du Pin —

" It is true, that at tlie present time, the name of the church of Rome, is giv-
en to the Catliolic church, and that these two terms pass for sjnon} nious.

"But in antiquity no more was intended by the name of the church of Rome,
than the church of the city of Rome, and the popes (bishops) in their subscrip-
tions or superscriptions, look simply to the quality of bishops of Rome. The
Greek scbisiuatics seem to be the fii-st wlio gave the name of the church of
Rome to all the churches of the west, whence the Latins made use of this to dis-
tiag^iish the churches which communicated with the church of Rome, from the
Greeki who were separated from her communion. From this came the rustoni
to g^ivc the name of the church of Rome to the Catholic church. But the other
churches did not from this lose their name or tlieir authority."

I shall hereafter ^ive the day and date of this separation, when she
received this sectarian designation and became a sect, in the proper
acceptation of that term. It may, perhaps, appear that it was not
only unscriptural, but dishonorable ; as opprobrious as ever were the
terms Lutheran or Protestant.

But suppose we call her " Catholic" alone; and her advocates now
endeavor to impress the idea that she is no longer to be called " Ro-
man Catholic," but Catholic, tliis term ecjually proves her a sect; for
in the New Testament and primitive antiquity there is no such de-
signation. It is simply the church of Christ. It is one thing for us
to choose a name for ourselves, aiul another to have one chosen for us
by our enemies. Societies, like persons, are passive in receiving
their names. It is with churches as it is with individuals; they may
not wear the name they prefer. She wishes now to be called no lon-
ger Roman Catholic, but (Catholic. Slie repudiates the appellation
of Roman; and claims to be the only Catholic church tliat ever was,
and is, and ever more shall be. But we cannot allow her to assume
it; and we dare not, in truth, bestow it, for she is not catholic. But,
as there is no church known in thc! New Testament by tliat nam(>,
could we 80 designate her, still she would t)e a sect.

But let me ask, what is the church of Rome of the nineteenth cen-
tury, or rather, what is the present Roman (Catholic institution 1
Permit me here to say, most emphatically, that I have not the slight-
est disposition to use terms of opprobrium in speaking of this church ;
or of the worthy gentleman who is opposed to me in this debute. I
do not wish or int<;tid to use the slightest expression which could be
construed into an unfriendly tone of Batirc, irony or invective toward-!

12 DEBATE ON THE

the respectable gentleman, or towards }ii3 cliurch. I shall speak
freely of her pretensions to be the only true church, &c. but I shall
observe a scrupulous respect in all my languatre towards the presen
representatives of the Catholic church in tlie nineteenth century.

Are we tiicn to understand her as the immutable, universal, ancient,
primitive, apostolic church of Christ? Arc we to understand this by
the Roman Catholic church of the nineteenth century, with her popes,
her cardinals, her patriarchs, primates, metropolitans, arciibishops,
archdeacons, monks, friars, nuns, &c. &c. teacliing and preaching the
use and worshij) of images, relics, ])enances, invocation of departed
men and women, veneration for some being whom tliey call " the mo-
ther of God," teaching and preaching the doctrine of priestly absolu-
tion, auricular confession, purgatory, transubstantiation, extreme unc-
tion, &c. &c.

Is this the ancient, universal, holy apostolic church? Not one of
these dogmas can be found jn the bible.

They originated hundreds of years since, as I am prepared to show,
from the evidence of Roman Catholic authors themselves. How then
can w-e call it the ancient apostolic church 1 Not one of these offices
nor dogmas is mentioned in the New Testament. Hear Du Pin on
this point. In exposing the im|)osition, practised, by an effort, so
late as the ninth century, to foist into the history of the church certain
pretended decrees or writings of those called the first popes, Du Pin,
an authentic Roman Catholic historian, proves these decrees and
writings to be spurious, because in them there are numerous allusions
to offices and customs not yet existing in the times referred to.

" The toUuwing proves llieiu spurious. Ibt. The. si roiid epistle of St. Clement
directed to St. Jaiuts, S))eaks of the Os'.inrii or (.loorkeeptr?, archdeacons and
other ecclesiastical officers, th:;t were not then introduced into the church."

2nd. " This lettt-r mentions sii6-deacon3, an order not then established in the
church." p. 534.

3d. " In the first Epistle attributed to St. Sixtus, he is called an ' archbishop,'
a word not used in this time."

4th. "The SeconJ, attributed to the same pope, mentions consecrated vessels,
and appeals to Royne, the grandeur of the church. It is there pretended that all
bishops wait for the pope's decision, and are instructed by his letters ; modes
of speaking- never used by the first bishops of Rome."

5th. " The epistle attributed to Telesphorus calls him an archbishop, a name
unknown in the first ages."

6th. " There is a decree in it, to enjoin three masses on our Savior's nativity,
a custom not so ancient."

7th. " We find several passa<^e9 in the letter ntfrlbuted to JlniccUis, which
does not agree with the time of that po])e ; as, for instance, what is there laid
down concerning the ordinations of bishops, sacerdotal tonsure, arcMiishops and
primates, which were not instituted till long after ; besides many things of the
same ii.it-re." p. 535.

How, then, can we suppose that this chufch of the nineteenth cen-
tury, with so many appendages, is the apostolic church — the only
original, primitive, universal institution of Christ?

But she glories in the name of mother and mistress of all churches
throughout the world. This astonishes me still more ; for with the
bible in his hand and history before him, who can stand up and say,
that this church ever was the mother and mistress of all churches

The most ancient catholic church was the Hebrew. She was the
mother, though not the mistress of all churches; for the christian
church has no reigning queen on earth, to lord it over her — as Paul
says, on another occasion — " Jerusalem is the mother of us all."

KO.MAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 13

If the gentleman admit Luke to be a faithful historian, he must not
only place the Hebrew church first, but the Samaritan, Phenician,
Syrian and Hellenist churches as older than the church in Rome. I
say if we speak of churches, as respects antiquity, the Hebrew, Sa-
maritan, Syrian and Phenician churches must be regarded as prior to
her. The Acts of the Apostles close with Paul's first appearance in
Rome.

But that the Roman Catholic institution may stand before you in
bold relief as a sectarian establishment, I will give you a definition
of her pretensions, from an authentic source, one of her own stan-
dards. The Douay catechism, in answer to the question — " What
are the essential parts of the church T' teaches " A pope, or supreme
head, bishops, pastors and laity." p. 20.

These, then, are the four constituent and essential elements of the
Roman Catholic church. The first is the pope, or head. It will be
confessed by all, that, of these, the most essential is the head. But
should we take away any one of these, she loses her identity, and
ceases to be what she assumes. My first etfort then shall be to prove
that, for hundreds of years after Christ, she was without such a head ;
the most indispensable of these elements ; and consequently, this be-
ing essential to her existence, she was not from the beginning. Be-
cause no body can exist before its head. Now, if we can find a time
whpn there was no pope, or supreme head, we find a time when there
was no Roman Catholic party.

By referring to the scriptures, and to the early ecclesiastical re-
cords, we can easily settle tliis point. Lot us begin with the New
Testament, which all agree, is the only authenticated standard of
faith and manners — the only inspired record of the christian doctrine.
This is a cardinal point, and I am thankful that in this we all agree.
Wiiat is not found there, wants the evident sanction of inspiration,
and can never conmiand the respect and homage of those who seek
for divine authority in faith and morality.

I affirm then, that not one of the offices, I have enumerated, as be-
longing to the Roman Catholic church, was known in the days of
the apostles, or is found in llu: N<;\v T<istamenl. On the contrary,
the very notion of a vicar of Christ, of a prince of tlio apostles, or of
a universal ii'^ad, and government in the ('lirislian churcli is repugnant
to the genius and spirit of the religion. We shall read a few passa-
ges of scripture, from the Roman version, to prove that the very idea
of an earthly head is unscriptural and anti-scri|>tural. The version
from which I am about to quote wasprinli'd in New York, and is cer-
tified to correspond exactly, with the Rliemisli oriirjuai, l)y a number
of gentlemen, of the first standing in society. If it difiers from any
other and more authentic copy, I will not rely upon it. I am willing
to take whatever l)iblo the gentleman may {)ro|)ose. I read from the
twenti(!th of Matthew. ".lesus said to his disciples. You know that
the princes of the (Jentiles overrule them, and those that an; the grea-
ter exercise power against them. It shall not be so among you, but
whosoever will be the greater among yon, let him be your minister!"
Does this convey the idea of a prince; among the apostles, a vicar of
(Jhrist, a lord over the people of (iod 1 l)r)es it not rather say there
shall not be any /wf/.t/(//> ainnn^nl yon! 'I'iiis command is express,
■hat there shall not be a pope, a supreme lord of the christian church.
Again, Malt. 23. 8. " Be not you called Rabbi, for one is your Master
B

14 DEBATE oy THE

and all ye are brethren : and call none father (i. e. pope) for one is
your father, be that is in heaven. Neither be you called masters, for
one is your master, (^hrist. He that is the greater of you shall be
your servitor!" If the very q\iestion al)out a pope had been before
the Messiah at this time, he could not have spoken more clearly.
This expression indicates the most perfect equality of rank among
the apostles and disciples of Christ, and positively forbids, in a re-
ligious sense, the assumption of the title o{ father ot pope. The com
mandment which says " thou shalt not steal," is not more clearly laid
down than the command " call no man father."

Now will the gentleman deny that *' pope" (in Greek " pappas,"
in Latin, "papa") means "father?" and that the case clearly comes
within the command. Jesus Christ says, "call no man pope ;" yet
they ordain a bishop and call him pope ; and this pope claims the
title of "universal father" — supreme head and governor of the church
of Christ. He is sometimes called Lord God the pope.

This testimony of Christ will outweigh volumes. Put all the fo-
lios and authorities, which the gentleman may bring, on one side, and
this text of .Tesus Christ on the other, and the former, in comparison
will be found light as the chaft" which is blown away by a breath.

Can any one, then, who fears God and believes in the Messiah, call
the pope, or any human being " father" in the sense here intended.
The Lord anticipated the future in all his precepts, and spoke with
an eye to it as well as to the men of his own time. He had the pride
and assumptions, of the Rabbis of Jerusalem, in his e)'e, who cove-
ted renown, who loved such greetings in the market place, and re-
ceived such compellations in the synagogues. Describing these men
to his disciples, he cautions them against their example, and teaches
them to regard each other as brethren. I hope the gentleman will pay
particular attention to this point in his reply to these remarks.

The third testimony on which we rely will be found in Ephesians
iv. 11. This passage sums up all the officers or gifts which Jesus
gave the church after his ascension into heaven. " And " says Paul
" he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists,
and some pastors, and doctors " or teachers. In this enumeration,
which contains the whole, there is no pope. The highest or first rank
is given to apostles.

In every other enumeration found in the epistles, there is the same
clear reference to the apostles as thefirst class. 1 Cor. xii. 28. But
let Peter himself speak as to his rank. We see that in his own 1st
Epistle, ch. 1, he calls himself an apostle, not the apostle of Jesus,
not the prince of apostles, not the supreme head of the church. Pe-
ter had no idea of such headship and lordship.

Again in addressing the "seniors" or elders, chap. v. 1. he says,
"I myself am a fellow senior." They were all co-elders, co-bishops,
co-apostles, as respected each other ; and as respected all other offi-
cers the apostles werejirsl. The thought of a supreme head amongst
them is not found in the New Testament; only as reprobated by our
Savior.

I will not, at present, advance any more scriptural authority upon
the point, but shall proceed to examine what foundation this element
of the Roman church, has in ancient history. But I would here say
distinctly, once for all, that I will not open a single document to prove
any doctrine, tenet, or principle of Protestantism, other than this holy

ROMAN" CATHOLIC RELIGION. 15

record of the prophets, and apostles, the holy men of God, who spake
as they were moved hy the Holy Spirit. On these I rely, and I af-
firm that these contain no authority for the assumption of the doctrine
of a universal father, pope, or head of the church. There was no
such person mentioned — no such idea cherished until hundreds of
years after the death of the apostles.

I will read the following' general remarks by this learned historian.
The title page is as follows : —

A New History of Ecclesiastical Writers, containing an account of
the authors of the several books of the Old and New Testaments ; of
the lives and writings of the primitive Fathers : an abridgment and
catalogue of their works ; their various editions, and censures, deter-
mining the genuine and spurious. Together with a judgment upon
style and doctrine. Also a compendious history of the Councils ; with
Chronological Tables of the whole, written in French by Lewis El-
lies Du Pin, doctor of the Sorbonne, and Regius Professor at Paris
3 vols. Folio. The Third Edition corrected, Dublin, printed by and for
George Grierson, at the l^ivo Bibles in Essex Street, mdccxxiv.

I am happy to find, appended to the preface, the seals and signatures
of- men high in the church, which I cannot now stop to read.

From this work I will proceed to read some passages in proof
of the proposition I have advanced, that there is not a vestige of evi
dence in favor of the cardinal idea, of the Roman Catholic religion,
that tliere wjus a pope in the first ages of the church. At the close of
the third century the highest advance yet made towards any supremacy
in the church on the ground of metropolitan standing, is thus describ
ed by Du Pin.

'• 'I'lie bisliops of;^r(-at cities had thiir prorogatives in ordinations, and in coun-
cils; and as in civiJ afl'airs men generally nad recourse to the civil metropolis, so
likewise in ecclesiastical matters, they consulted with the bishop of the metro-
politan city. The churches of the three principal cities of the world were looked
upon as criief, and their bishops attributed great prerogatives to themselves. The
church of Rome, founded by St. Peter and St. I'aul, was considered as first,
and its bishop as first amongst all the bishops of the world ; yet they diil not be-
lieve him to be infallible: and ihougli they frequently consuld-d him, and hit
advice wag of great rousefmrnce, yet they did not receive it blind-fold and im-
plicitly, every bIslio[) imaguiing himself to have a right to judge in ecclesiastical
matters." p. 590.

Observe the bishops of the principal cities attributed to t/iemselvea
grcftt prerogatives. And Rome, the chief city, began to assume the
chief prerogatives. Rut tlie general character of the clergy as detail-
ed by thi.s writer was not yet favorable to such assumptions — for,
says he,

" The clergy were not distinguished from others by any peculiar habits, but
by the sanctity of their life unti manners, they .were removed from all kind of
avariri', and carefully avoiiled <;very thing that seemed to carry tin: appearance
of scandalous, fdthy lucre. They administered the sacniment g-rn/i*, and believed
5t to be an abominable crime (ogive or re reive any thing for a spiritual bli'ssing.
Tithes were not then ajjpropriated to them, but the people maintained them vol-
tinturily at their own expense."

"The clergy were prolijliited to meddle with any civil and secular affairs. They
were ordained againiit their will and did not remove from one church to another
out of a principle of interest or ambition. They were extremely chaste and re-
gular. It was lawful for priests to keep the wives they married before they were
ordained."

Nothing indeed like an ecclesiastical establishment was yet in ex-
istence : for says Du Pin, speaking of these times.

" .\ Iter all. it must be confessed, thatth" discipline of the church lias beeu so

16 bEBATE ON THE

extremely different and so often altered, that it is almost impossible to say anj
thins: positively concerning it." p. 590.

So Stood the matter at the close of the third century.

But we have still more definite and positive testimony, in the great
councils of the 4th and 5th centuries. Let us then examine the early
councils. The famous council of Nice which sat in 325, is the firs't
general council that ever assembled ; for although they call the con-
sultations of the apostles — Acts 15,, a council, yet in the enumeration
of general councils, of which they establish eighteen, that of Nice is
called the first.

At this council there were present 318 bishops. It was called by
the Roman emperor in order to settle certain discords in what was
then called the church. By the sixth canon of this first council it ap-
pears, according to Du Pin, that the idea of a pope, or supreme head,
had not begun to be entertained^ The sixth canon of the council of
Nice is as follows.

"The 6th canon is famous for the several questions it has occasioned. The
most natural sense that can be given to it, is this: ' We ordain tliat the ancient
custom shall be observed, whicli gives power to the bishop ol" Alexandria, over
all the provinces o( Egypt, Libya, and Pnnlapolis, because the bishop of Rome
has the like jurisdiction over all the suburbicary regions (for this adclition must
be supplied out of Riijinus;) we would likewise have the rights and privileges of
the church of Aniioch and the other churches preserved ; but these rights ought
not to prejudice those of the metropolitans. If any one is ordained without the
consent of the metropolitan, the council declares, that he is no bishop: but if any
one is canonically chosen by the suffrage of almost all the bishops of tne province,
and if there are but one cr two of a contrary opinion, the suffrages of the far
greater number ought to carry it for the ordination of those particular persons.
This canon being thus explained has no difficulty in it. It does not oppose the
primacy of the church of Rome, but neither does it establish it.'

" In this sense it is, that it compares the church of Rome to the church of
Alexandria, by considering them all as patriarchal churches. It continues also
to the church of Aniioch and all the other great churches, whatsoever rights
they could have; but lest their authority should be prejudicial to the ordinary
metropolitans, who were subject to their jurisdiction, tlie council confirms what
had been ordained in the fourth canon concerning the authority of metropo-
litans in the ordination of bishops. This explication is easy and natural, and we
have given many proofs of it in our Latin dissertation concerning the ancient
discipline of the church."

"This canon," says Du Pin, who be it remembered was always
anxious to find some authority for the pope's supremacy, " does not

ESTABLISH THE SUPRE.MACY OF THE CHURCH OF RoME." Willing 33

he was to have this primacy traced to the beginning of Christianity,
he is constrained to admit, that even the council of Nice does not es-
tablish it. Nay more — it is in truth against it ; for it gives the Bishop
of Alexandria like jurisdiction with the church of Rome; and also
preserves to the church of Antioch its metropolitan dominion.

It would be too tedious to go into an exposition of the causes, why
so much power was accumulated in the hands of four or five bishops.
It originated in the divisions of the empire. In Roman jurisdiction,
there were four great political dioceses, (for diocese was then a politi-
cal term) and to these the church conformed. Hence the patriarchal
sees of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria. In process
of time, Jerusalem was added, and these all became radiating centres
of ecclesiastical power and patronage. The bishop of each diocese
assumed a sort of primacy, in his own district ; and as various inter-
ferences and rivalries in jurisdiction occurred, the council of Nice so
far decided that the same power should be given to them all — that all

R05IAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 17

primates should be co-ordinate. Hence Du Pin could not find in that
council authority for the supreme primacy of Rome. In the canons
of the second and third general councils there is no reference to these
matters whatever.

I shall therefore proceed to the great council of Chalcedon, of pre-
eminent authority, the greatest of the first four general councils.

From all the canons of the council relating to government, it is evi-
dent that they had not yet excogitated the idea of a supreme head.

Says Du Pin,

" lhe-2i>th canon grantstD the church of tliecity of Cons'.antincph,\vh\ch is
called JVtto Rome, the same privileges with old Rome, because this city is the se-
cond city in the world. It also adjudges to it, besides this, jurisdiction over the
dioceses of Ponius, Asia, and T/irace, and over the churches which are out of the
bounds of the emperor, and aright to ordain metropolitans in the provinces of
these dioceses." p. 678.

Thus this council, composed of 340 bishops, and assembling in the
year of our Lord 451, gave the same power to the patriarch of Con-
stantinople as to the patriarch of Rome, and makes the supremacy of
the one equal to the supremacy of the other.

I have examined the proceedings of all the councils of the first six
centuries, of which I find about 170, promulgating in all about 1400
canons. I have read and examined the twenty creeds of the fourth
century with all their emendations down to the close of the sixth;
and I affirm, without the fear of contradiction, that there is not in all
these a single vestige of the existence of a pope or universal head of
the church down to the time of Gregory the great, or John the Faster
of Constantinople.

I shall now proceed to show from the same learned historian when
this idea began to be divulged. And be it emphatically observed that
the title of pope in its peculiar and exclusive sense was first assumed
by the patriarch of Constantinople, and approved by the patriarch of
Rome. Du Pin says in his life of Gregory, chap. 1, "He did of-
ten rigorously oppose the title of universal patriarch, which the patri-
archs of Constantinople assumed to themselves." Indeed he calls
the title, " proud, blasphemous, anti-christian, diabolical," and says,
the bishops of Rome refused to take this title upon them " lest they
should seem to encroach upon the rights of other bishops." But the
following document or remonstrance against the title shews what a
novelty the idea of an universal head, father, or pope was even at
Rome, A. D. 588 :—

" St. Gregory does not only oppose this title in the patriarch of Consfantino-
le, but maintains also, that it cannot agree to any other bishop, and that the
iishop of Rome neither ought, nor can assume it. ,Tohn the younger, patriarch
of Constantinople , had taken upon him this title in a council held in 586, in the
time of pope relagius, which obliged this pope to annul the Acts of this coun-
cil. St. Gregory wrote of it also to this patriarch ; hut this made no impression
on him, and Jiilin would not abandon this fine title, H. 4. Kp. 36. St. Gregory
addreised himself to the eiii|)iTor Mauritius, and exhorted him earnestly to
employ his authority for redressing this abuse, and force him who assumed this
title to quit it. He remonstrates to him in his l> tter, that although Jeaus Christ
had committed to St. Peter the care of all his churches, yet he was not called
universal apostle. That the title of universal bishop is against the rules of the
ospel, iiiid the nppoifitineiil of the canons : that there cannot be nn universal
ishop but the authority of all the other will be destroyed or diminished ; that
if the bishop of Constantinople were universal bishop, and it should happen that
oe should fall into heresy, it might be said that the universal church was fallen
into destruction. That the council of Chalctdon bad offered this title to Lto,
B3 3

18 DBBATB Oy THB

bat neither he nor his luccessors would fircrpt it, lest by giving something pe-
culiar to one bishop only, they should laki- away the rights which belong to all
the bishops. — That it btlongs to the eniprror to reduce by his authority hira
who drspists the canons, and does injury to tlie universal ciiurch by assunning
this sinp;ular name." H. 4. I'.p. ;?2.

But at this time the patriarchs" of Constantinople and Rome were
contending for the supremacy, and while it appeared to Gregory that
his rival of the east was likely to possess the title, he saw in it, eve-
ry thing anti-christian and profane. When a new dynasty, however,
ascended the throne and offered the title to a Roman bishop, it lost all
its blasphemy and impiety, and Me find the successor of Gregory can
wear the title of uiuversal patriarch when tendered him by Phocas,
without the least scrupulosity.

It is then a fact worthy of much consideration in this discussion,
that John bishop of Constantinople first assumed the title of univer-
sal head of the whole christian church, and that the bishop of Rome
did in that case oppose it as anti-scriptural and anti-christian.

Concerning the reputation of Saint Gregory I need not be profuse.
Of the Gregories he is deservedly called the Great. Renowned in
history as one wlio stamped his OAvn image on the Roman w-orld for
a period of five hundred years, yet he could net brook the idea of a
pope, especially when about to be bestowed on his rival at Constan-
tinople.

St. Gregory, be it remembered, says Du Pin, did not only oppose
the title in the case of John the Faster, as proud, heretical, blasphe-
mous, &c. but could not agree to its being assumi.;d by any other
bishop ; he affirmed that the bishops of Rome ought not, dare not,
cannot assume this pompous and arrogant title.

Thus stood matters as respects a supreme head up to within 14
jeais of the close of the Cth century. — [Time expired.]

Eleven unlock ^. M.
Bishop Purcei.l rises —

I thought it likely, my respected and beloved fellow citizens, that I
should have to day a ditlicult task before me. But I perceive that I
shall have an easy one. I expected from the reputation of my antag-
onist as a debater, that he was going to argue so closely, and to press
me so hard, that he would, to use a common expression, make minced
meat cf me, and not leave one bone of me unbroken. I thought that
my creed, so ancient, so venerable, so holy, was to be torn into tat-
ters and scattered to the four winds of heaven — I was mistaken !

The gentleman occupied ten minutes of his time in endeavoring to
bias the judgment of his hearers in favor of the idea, that this contro-
versy originated not with himself, but that I was the aggressor, in
doing which he was called to order. I will not trespass more than
two or three minutes on your patience in answering his preliminary
observations.

I am willing to let that matter rest on its own merits. As to the
question of assailant and defender in this controversy, the public have
the data, and it is for them to judge. My worthy opponent began the
presen-t debate by representing himself as the staunch defender of Pro-
testantism, endeavoring thereby to enlist the sympathies of Protestants
in his favor. And what, I would presume, to inquire, are his princi-
ples 1 What are his claims, his pretensions, or his right to appear
Ufore this Msambly aa ths ilefender of Protestantism ^ We are all

EOilAK CATHOLIC RELIGION. 19

aware whit sad pranks have been lately played off before high Hea
ven by men sty'/ln^ themselves Protestants, which all classes of Pro-
testants unite in deprecating, .which they all condemn. I know not
whether there be not some Protestants here, \vho will not admit his
gratuitous advocacy of their principles — who will not believe that the

firinciples of Piolestantism which he volunteers to defend will be ful-
y or fairly represented by him. For one, I think tiie Episcopalians,
a numerous and respectable class, will not consent to be represented
by him ; for he denies, if I am rio^htly informed, that there is proper-
ly any ministry in the Protestant church so called — that a divine call
should precede the assumption of the sacred office. [Here the mod-
erators interrupted, by requesting the speaker to confine himself to the
question.]

Well we are so far even, [a lauQjh.] The gentleman, then, began
by the assertion that the term Roman Catholic was an incongruity.—
But I deny it to be an incongruity. Terms, we all know, are used
the mo-e clearly to designate the idea or object which they represent.
" Catholic" is the name of our church ; and we qnly prefix the word
Roman to signify that she is in communion with the see of Rome.
We acknowledge there a primate of superior, ecclesiastical jurisdic-
tion, and in his communion we do abide.

He says the word Roman is incongruous ; yet his own authority,
Du Pin, says it was S3'nonymous with Catholic. It was so under-
Stood formerly. And here I may observe that I deny the authority
of Du Pin to be competent to the settlement of questions to be called
up for decision in the course of the present controversy. Du Pin was
a Jansenist, removed from his place of Regius Professor at the Sor-
bonne for his doctrinal errors, by Louis XIV^. to whom Clement XI.
addressed a brief on this occasion, commending his zeal for the
truth. The claim of Rome was undisputed in the early ages, and it
was only when her preeminence was contested that the term " Roman"
was used before the word Catholic. Hence it was no incongruity,
but a clearer designation of the see in whose communion were all the
churches. He has stated an inaccuracy in saying that tiie word cath-
olic was not found in the bible. Is not the epistle of St. James cal-
led catholic T And will he presume to say the word was not placed
there in the very first age of Christianity?

The gentleman says he will use no words that may convey an op-

frobrious meaning. God forbid that I should set him the example,
shall debate this question with earnestness, but not with passion.
As soon as the discussion closes, I can meet the gentleman without a
■ingle unkind or unfriendly feeling.

But in enumerating various doctrines of the Catholic church, I was
shocked to hear him use the language " some being called the mother
of God." Great God ! didst tliou not send into the world thy !Son,
Jesus Christ, to save perishing man. and didst iliou not select one
of all the daiighters of Kve.to be the mother of that child of benedic-
tion, and was not Mary this holy one, to whose care was committed
his infinry, nnd to whom he was subject] VV'as sh»! not the chosen
one of heaven, to whom its archangel was sent with the communica-
tion — " Hail, full of Grace," or as it is in the Protestant version—
"thou that art liigbly favored — the I,ord is with thee," and do we
now hear her stigmatized in such language, and dcsignatad aa "soiua
being called the mother of God 1"

20 DEBATE ON THE

The gentleman then contests the doctrine of a hierarchy in the
chvirch ; and says what he asserts is proved by the scriptures. I
would ask — has he read the bible ? Has he read the book of Leviti-
cus T Docs he not find there the example set of a distinction of orders
iu religious aflfairs ] Did not the Lord speak to Moses, saying, —
" ' Take Aaron with his sons, their vestments and the oil of unction,'
and he poured it on Aaron's head — he put also the mitre on his head
And after he had offered his sons, he vested them with linen tunics
and girded them with girdles," &c. &c. " And Nadab and Abiu
were consumed with fire for opposing them, and they died before the
Lord." Did not Moses lead ] Did not Aaron assist? Were there
not councillors appointed by the Lord, to divide the burden of their
ministry'? Did not king Josaphat send Zachariah and Nathaniel and
Michael, and with them the Levites, Senneias, &c., to teach the peo-
ple ■? Paralip. 17. 7. What is this but a distinction of orders and of
authority in the Jewish dispensation ]

He says there was no distinction of orders in the early christian
church ; and he refuted himself by appealing for a solution of the dif-
ficulty to St. Paul. Were there no orders, no hierarchy"? What says
St. Paul in 4th Kphesians? " And he gave some apostles, and some
prophets, ann aher some evangelists, and other some pastors, and
teachers, for trie perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all meet unto the
unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect
man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ." We
must here remark a gradation of authority in the church of God. For
what] For the work of the ministry. There never has existed a so-
cial body without subordination, or distinction of rank. The church
of Christ is a social body. It needs to be subjected to order, even
more than a political body; and as if St. Paul anticipated the objec-
tion, which we have, not without surprise, heard this day urged, he
expressly states the object of the institution of a hierarchy by him,
who ascending on high gave gifts to men, to be the perfecting of the
saints — the unity of faith. " Are all," he asks, (what my friend
would make them) "prophets? Are all pastors?" — He elsewhere
asks, " How can they preach unless they be sent?" By whom? By
an ecclesiastical superior. — So much for the evidence of the Old Tes-
tament, and the New Testament. They both teach a head, a hierar-
chy and subordination among the people of God.

This takes me to the examination of the title, assumed by the Cath-
olic church, of mother and mistress of all the churches. He says
Jerusalem was the mother church at first — and then the Samaritan,
and so on, 1 need not follow him. I will explain what we mean by
the term. — We call her mother because she guides, she cherishes us.
We call her mother, because we feel a filial reverence for her — just
as an orphan calls her who protects her, educates her, and guides her
■wandering feet, by the same tender appellative. There is no blasphe-
my in this comparison. It is the Son of God that established the
authority of that church. The name is its designation.

But the word ' mistress' is never used in speaking of the church,
in the sense of lordship, or queenship. It is the way in which chil-
dren address their teacher. They frequently use the expression, as
we read in (;ordery'9 Colloquies, "salve magister." Magistra here is
addressed to her in her capacity of teacher, and such she is, and, as I

EOMAX CATHOLIC EKLIGIO:?. 81

shall prove, by the appointment and the express institution of Jesus
Christ.

He next referred to tr«<- P oway catechism to show from the defini-
tion of the Catholic church, that she consisted of four elements, viz.
the pope, bishops, pastors, and laity.

Now the catechism of this diocese defines the Catholic church to
be the congregation of all the faithful, professing- the same faith, re-
ceiving the same sacraments, and united under one visible head, the
pope, or vicar of Jesus Christ, on earth.

It is defined to be the congregation of all the faiihful. This is the
definition which most authors give. It is that of the catechism from
which my friend has quoted.

But let us adopt his definition, and I am prepared to show that the
idea of a supreme head has its origin in the bible, and is supported
by the earliest ecclesiastical authoritj*, I must here take notice of the
promise he gave to put his finger on the precise day and date when
the church called the Roman Catholic church, ceased to be the church
of Christ. He has left us as much ia the dark as ever on this most
important of all events. It is a point which has puzzled the world,
and will for ever puzzle it, to fix that date. It will, I am sure, puz-
zle my friend. The whole world has never been able to state at what
particular moment the Catholic church lost her prerogative and the
favor of God — when she ceased to be in the true sense the Calhoh'c
Church. The reason of Ihis is obvious. She has never forfeited her
prerogative. But to the matter before us. It is opposed to scripture
to assert that the church in apostolic days had no head. What did
Christ say to Peter when he addressed him the mysterious question —
" Lovest thou me more than these"? Peter says he does love him.
Jesus gives him the order, " feed my lambs." A second time he asks
the question, and receives the same reply. The third time he repeats
the same question. Peter, troubled that his Lord should doubt his
affection, replies, " Oh Lord, thou knowest all things — thou knowest
that I love thee," and Jesus repeated the command — " feed iiiy lambs"
— " feed my shee))."

Thus Christ establishes the headship of the church in Peter, and
him he makes liis vice-gerent, or common pastor, to feed both lambs
and sheep — botli clergy and laity.

Mr. Campbell quarrels with the doctrine of the pope's headship
because it carries 71 poivcr and an auihorily with it: aiul he quotes the
New Testament to prove no such power to have been exercised in tlio
days of the apostles. I have disproved his argument upon this point
already. Christ did institute a body of leaders, a ministry to guide
his people, "that henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro,
and carried about hy every wind of doctrine, by the wickechiess of
men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.
But doing the truth in Christ, we may in all things grow up in him
who is head, even Christ; from whom the wiiole body being compac-
ted and fitly joined together, by what every part su|)plielh, according
to the f)p(Talir)fi in the measure of every pari, makelli increase of tlio
body, unto the edifying of itself in ciuirity.'' Must not the body
have a head, the house a foundation'? Ho objects that we call the
sovereign pontiff — Pope, or father, whereas Clirisl says, "call not any
man Father." But is this proliibilion of our Savior to be taken liter-
ally ] Is there any guilt or imoiety in calling a parent " Father?"

83 DEBATE OX THE

Many of Christ's commands are similar. He commands., ilp'' to call
no man good.- for God only is good. But do we not, in saluting a
friend in common life, say " Good Sir," " myp^ood friend]" &c. Is
there any impiety in this 1 It is the usinjr these terms in that sense
in which lliey are peculiar to tiie divinity, which Christ forbids. 'And
the pope when he corresponds with the bishops, does not_^ assume
these proud titles, but addresses them as an elder Brother. We do
not call him " Lord God the Pope."

Mr. C. says, St. Paul did not lord it over the clergy. P^either
does the pope. He is to govern the church according to the canons.
He can make no articles of faith. He cannot, he does not act arbi-
trarily in proposing articles of belief unknown to Catholic antiquity.
But neither will he suffer innovation. His language is lik'e St. Paul's,
"Were I or an angel from Heaven to preach to you any other gospel,
than what has been preached, let him he Anathema!" This expres-
sed the sense the great apostle entertained of his own responsibility,
and the danger of novelty in religion. He would not suffer altar to
be raised against altar, on the ground of private interpretation of the
bible. He would not suffer the wolves of heresy and error to prowl
around the fold, and tear, and scatter the sheep entrusted to him by
Jesus Christ.

It would be horrid blasphemy to apply to man the title Father, in
the sense in which it is addressed to God. We never call the rijS^e
in any sense God. When the pope writes to the bishoY)S, he begms
hy '■'■ Dikcti Fratres''' "Beloved Brethren," — a fepublican, and if
you please democratic address. The bishops are all brethren under
one common fother. The pope is accused of letting himself be wor-
shipped. This is not so. But when the Pope comes before the altar
he bows down like the humblest of his people. "I confess," say*.
he, "to Almighty God, to the blessed Virgin Mary, the holy Apostles,
and to all the Saints," the least of whom he therefore acknowied^Sj
to be greater than himself, " that I have sinned ;" and this is what is'
called setting himself up to be a God ! See how you have been de-
ceived by the invidious representations you have had of the pope, and
of our doctrine, my friends. -t.^^-.-^ ■•

I assert again that the authority quoted by my friend, Mr. C, viz.
Du Pin, is no authority. He was the rank enemy of the Roman see,
a Jansenist, reproved and censured by the Catholic church. Mr. C.
knows this, for I have read to him the documents that prove it, and
he was confounded by them. It is neither good faith, nor good logic,
to quote him as an authority against my argument. As for the signa-
tures appended to the English translation, I care not for them ; they
may have been wrongfully placed there, or those certificates suborn-
ed. This makes nothing for the authority of the book, and', no argu-
ment can be drawn from them. But, my friends, I am sure you dis-
covered his discomfiture when he appealed to Du Pin. There was a
stumbling block in his way, something he could not get over. I>id
you not notice how with the rapid speed of a rail-road car dashing
suddenly on an obstruction, he Jled the track, when he I'ound to his as-
tonishment that the testimony adduced by his author, was not unfa-
vorable to the supremacy of St. Peter, and his successors ! I will
examine his writings to show that evien in the thifd century, the bish-
ops of Rome claimed this prerogative, and Du/'Pin tells you that this
was acknowledged. He says there were three principal bishops.

KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 23

This is a great admission, and I am thankful for it. He says that
even then, bishops came from inferior sees, and laid their conflicting
claims before the see of Rome ; and submitted to the chair of Peter,
doubts in religious matters ; and urged it to proclaim a solution of
their ditHculties ; but he says, they did not believe the pope of Rome
infallible. This is granting to the Catholics the whole mooted ques-
tion. The question is clearly settled by this admission. Appeals
were lodged before the bishop of Rome, though he was not believed
to be infallible. Neither is he now. No enlightened Catholic holds
the pope's infallibility to be an article of faith. I do not ; and none
of my brethren, that I know of, do. The Catholic believes the pope,
as a man, to be as liable to error, as almost any other man in the uni-
verse. Man is man, and no man is infallible, either in doctrine or
morals. Many of the popes have sinned, and some of them have
been bad men. I presume my worthy antagonist will take his brush
in hand, and roll up his sleeves, and lay it on them hard and heavy ;
so will I ; and whenever he uses a strong epithet against them, I will
use a stronger. But let us return to the gentleman's authority, Du
Pin. We come to the council of Nice, which was held A. D. 325,
and where 318 bishops were assembled. This council was convoked
by the first christian emperor Constantine the Great, at the suggestion,
I mighi have more correctly said the instigation of Sylvester, bishop
of Rome, and of course, with his consent. Osius, bishop of Cordo-
va, and two legates, Vitus and Vincentlus, presided in it, in the name
of the Roman pontiff. The principal doctrine on which the council
was assembled to decide, was the divinity of Jesus Christ denied by
the Arians. From the manner of the convocation of the council, the
circumstance of its having been presided over by the representatives
of the pope, or bishop of Rome, the submission of the entire chris-
tian world to its decrees, and the authentic records of its transactions
which have reached us, we have the most convincing evidences of the
reverence which was even then entertained for the successor of St.
Peter; and the best practical illustration of the wisdom that estab-
lished his prp-erninencH of rank ;iiiioiig his brethren, to watch over
the purity of doctrine, the soundness of morals, the uniformity of
discipline, and the maintenance of union among the churches. What
more direct and satisfactory testimony could we require of the supre-
macy of the see of Rome, th;<n tin- distinct recognition of its authori-
ty by so venerable an assembly ? And what if rival claims were ad-
vanced by other scesi 'I'liis ambitious spirit is as old as Christiani-
ty, as ancient as tlie origin of the human race. The apostles, them-
selves, strove for the mastery. They contended which of them was
the greater. But this rivalry only served, in the end, to establish
more firmly tlie precedency f)f the claim of St. Peter. In answer to
the pretensions of the bishop of Alexandria, the council says to him,
•' As the bishop of Rome has his primacy in Rome, so the l)ishop of
Alexandria has his primacy in Alexandria." It says to iiini, "you
have no cause to Cf)iiij)lain — if he has liis authority, you have yours;
in your respective sees, or chnrrhes, you have the diief control ; but
it is his prerogative, as occupying tlie placf' of Peter, to watt.-h over
the welfare of all." •' Neither," says Du Pin, " doks it dispiiove
THE PRiMAcv OK ROME." Tho council offered a sedative to the pride
of the bishop of Alexandria, or asserted his authority in his own see,
but it does not disprove the primacy of Romo

24 DEBATE ON THE

What more do you want than what God has caused to be thus re-
corded Ijere 1

The dissension first originated among the patriarchal sees. The
counsel took cognizance of it, and decided according to the rules and
usages of the apostolic and immediately subsequent ages. From this,
whatever follows, it surely does not follow that there was no primacy
in Rome.

He says that the bishop of Constantinople assumed to call himself
the universal bishop, and that the emperor winked at it. What does
this mean ] Wliy that the crafty emperor, and the more subtle bishop
intended to compel Rome to acknowledge Constantinople as her
equal. This attempt of the emperor and the patriarcli illustrates the
point at issue, and clears it in fact of any dilBcuhy. They knew that
Rome was referred to on every occasion ; and that her decision was
final. They were jealous of her authority. The manner of this as-
sumption of the bishop of Constantinoph;, and of the emperor wink-
ing at it, are in fact proofs of the supremacy of Rome. Now, thought
the proud Greek, I will bring this haughty pontiff of Rome crouching
to my feet, I will make him surrender all his authority, and we, the
emperor and myself, will divide the earth between us. It was there-
fore that the bishop made this assumption, and that the emperor winked
at it. It was in this unjust and intolerable sense of the term Universal
Father, that Gregory who deserves all the praise which has been
given him, and more, objected to its assumption. It was thus that he
reprobated the title of universal father.

If the bishop of Rome now claims to be called the first pastor in
Christendom, he pretends to be no lord of the consciences of his breth-
ren, or dictator of the terms of salvation to the servants of God.
He acknowledges with humility his own intrinsic nothingness, unless
supported by God, and guided and guarded by him in the administra-
tion of his eminently responsible office.

He is a father because he breaks the mystic bread, and dispenses
the spiritual nourishment of sound doctrine to the souls of the people
of God. He is a father because to him we appeal in our doubts, and to
him refer in every emergency, as to the vicar of Christ.

The term Universal Father was likewise worthy of the condemna-
tion of Gregory, in the bad sense in which it was assumed by the pa-
triarch of Constantinople, viz. that of lord and master of spiritual
power and of the consciences of the brethren, so as not to need or ask
the advice of the bishops. The pope never gives a decree without
taking counsel from his constitutional advisers, availing himself of
the light of present wisdom and past experience. He takes all human
means to weigh the subject well and to come to a sound and scriptural
conclusion. Discard the pope — sever from the communion of the
church of Rome, and you lose all claim, or shadow of claim to a con-
nexion with the apostles. Hear Waddington speaking of the Vaudois —

" In our journcv back towards the apostolic times, these sepjrat sts conduct
us as far as the beginning of the twelfth century; but when we would advance
farther, we are intercepted by a broad region of darkness and uncertainty. A
spark of hope is indeed su^i^gested by the history of the Vaudois. Their origin is
not ascert.iined bv any aulhciitic lecord, and being ininieniorial, it may have
been coeval with ihe introduction of Christianity.

" But since there is not one direct proof of their existence during that long
space; since they have never been certainly discovered by the curiosity of any
writer, nor detected by the inquisitorial eye of any orthodox bishop, nor

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 25

Darned by any pope, or council, or any church record, chronicle, or memorial,
we are not justified in attaching any historical credit to their mere unsupported
tradition. It is sufficient to prove, that they had an earlier existence than the
twelfth century; but tliat thfy had then been perpetuated throufili eight or
nine centuries, uncouiniemorated abroad, and without any niitional moniinient
to attest their existence, is much more than we can venture, on such evidence,
to assert. Here tlien the golden chain of our apostolic dtscent disappears;
and though it may exist, buried in the darkness of those previous a>;<;s, and
though some writers have seemed to ciiscern a tew detached linlvs wnich they
diligently exhi'jited, tljcre is still much wanting to complete tiie continuity."
[Pag-e 554 of the History of tlie Churcli from Ihe earliest ages, by Rev. Geo.
JVadtlington, A. J^I./illow of Trinity College, Cambridge, and Prebendai-y of
Ferriiiz, in the calliairal clnirch if Chichester, J\^eiv Vor'-c edition, 1835.]

Well if Christ established a church on earth, that church must be
catholic. " I believe in the holy catholic church," is the lan^age
of the apostles and of councils, of Protestants as well as of Catholics.
The frue church must be catholic. What church then is catholici
The universe answers the question — Italy, France, Spain, Austria,
Ireland, vSouth America, Canada, five hundred churches lately erected
in England, Calcutta, Ceylon, Oceana, all the islands of the Pacific
and the Atlantic : even in every country where Protestantism is dom-
inant, Denmark, Norwaj', Sweden, the testimony is given, and the
words " I believe in the holy catliolic church" are used by the mem-
bers of the Roman Catholic church, who alone have a right to use
them. Applied to any other church they are a misnomer. Protestants
cannot employ such language. They are cut up into a thousand dis-
cordant and chaotic sects. As no other church but ours is now cath-
olic, so no other but ours ever has been or will be catholic. "Chris-
tian is my name and Catholic my surname," said Pacian. With love
and charity to all men the Roman Catholic church subsists throughout
all time, teaches all truth, and gathers into her communion the children
of every clime. What she lost in one region, she gained in another.
The a.xe of persecution that loi)ped off some of her branches, mad©
the vigorous trunk produce the more luxuriously.

" hutsligating," any s l letclicr, " in tliose countries, wiiere either Christianity
has once subsisted, or where it subsists at j)rcsent — the motDimcnIs which they
exhibit, and interrogating these (motiiimenis have voices, my brethren, that speaK
plainly,) — it will be found that they all loudly attest the greatness and the an-
tiquity of our religion. " IVe are Catholics," the veneiabU: ruins say, "and
the emblems even, which still adorn us, shew it." It is so. likewise, not only in

the nionuni»-nt9, which were once, or are yet, sacred to religion, but in a great
variety of other vestiges. The proofs of the ancient splendor of Catholicity are
legible on aIiiio»t every object, that has seen the tiile of ages roll away, — on the

palaces of prinre«,— on the castles of the great, — on the gates of cities, — on the
asylums of charity, — on the tombs of the ffead. They may be read in the con-
stitutions and laws of kingdoms — in the foundations and rules of universities,—
in the customs and peculiarities of the vulgar. «»»«»»

It is indeed, possible that prejudice may object to those arguments, that,
"they are very general and inclistliicl, — proving, it is true, that in almost every
nation, and in every age, there has existed a wiifely dirt'usetl religion, — a Catliolic
religion, but not proving that this religion, its principles and doctrines, were in
every age the same — in every age, the identical religion, which the Catholic be-
lieve* at present." It is the essence of the true religion to remain unchanged;
and to have desienderl.and to descend always, down the streamuf time, without
corruption or alteration. If, therefore, I unrlerlake rlistinrlly to prove, that the
Catholic religion of the present period is indeed, the true religion, then should
I also distinctly prove that it has never undergone iinv alterntion, and that it is
the same, which, revealed originally to mankind, has, during the course of eigh-
teen centuries, formed alwayt the object of the veaeratioo of the, orthodox be-
liever." vol. 2, p. 173.

C 4

26 DEDATK OA Tllffi

" As it 5TU- tlie dis'ijn of GoJ, tliat llie true cliurcu slioiilti h.-. Catlinlii- ; lo it
tins also hin design, that the true church shouKl ulwavs be distiiituished by the
honorable iippfllation of Culholic: — as it ivas the will of Jesus Ciirist, that the
establi?-hinent whicli he formed, should <xtend through every nation, uiul subsist
through every nj;c; so also it was his will, that this establishment should be dig-
nifieil b_v a name corresponding to these gnat characteristic:. " I bdieve." the
apostles commanded the faithful in every age to say, " in the Iwh/ Catholic
Church," "by this name Catholic," says St. Axiiun, " 1 am rciaijied in the
Catholic church," "my name," adds St. Pacian, "is Christian; my surname
C.VTHOLIC; and l^Y riUiiSVKyA:ilv:, I am distinguished from all the sects of
heresy." Sermon on the catholicity of the church, page 195, vol. ii. liaft.
edit. 1«30.

It is certainly, my beloved fiiends, a very animating circumstance, to v'icwthe
immensity and the long duration of our cliurch; to see it stretching out its em-
pire through every climate; consolingby its benefits, and enlighteniMg by ils doc-
trines, the remotest corners of the universe: to see it existing through tlic long
lapse of so many age?, unmoved, while the strongest empires sink to ruin; and
unshaken, wiiile all tilings fall in deca)' around it. It is animating to remark it
triumphant over all the powers of darkness, and the exertionsof human malice;
combating often, it is true, with the storms of persecution and the artifices of
heresy- ; yet combating, always, to come off with victor^' ; riding through the tem-
pest, and exalted by the very means which had been levelled at its depression.
Ibid, page 198.

From this contemplation, my christian friends, we may derive the consoling
assurance, that happen or befal what may, though the billows of persecution
8well and the tide of error rage; every etlort to destroy the church shall turn
out fruitle.ss. The church, these scenes assure you, is an edifice protected by the
hand of the Almighty, a rock fixed on the basis of the divine power amid the
«ea of human life. The billows of persecution shall swell, the tide of error
dash against it in vain. They will no more move it, although tliey ma}-, in-
deed, sweep away many of its unguirded members, than the gentlest spray
will move the firmest mountain that the ocean laves. I shciuid be sorry to see
the misfortune happen, 3'et could I behold the most furious tempest gathering
without one fetllng of anxiety for the stability of the church. As the I'salmist
lays, "it should coriie to nothing, like the running loaler," (Ps. Ivii.) It would
prove but the preparation for fresh conquests. The security of the church amid
•torms, during the long interval of eighteen centuries, is alone sufficient assur-
ance of its security, amid the fury of fiiture tempeot. Ibidem, page 19.'}.

If it can be even proved that the Catholic church had not these
characteristics, we admit she is not the church of Christ. I shall go
to trial on this point. If she is ever ceased to teach the whole doc-
trine of Christ, to diffuse over all nations, the true christian precepts,
or if she has not had a larger body of professors, than any of the sects,
that separated in every successive age from her communion, then will
I yield the question. But it will try the ingenuity of the gentleman
to prove any such thing, and still more, to show in that case, what
church was catholic. This difficulty meets him at the very threshold.
[Here the time expired.]

Three o'clock, P. M.
Mr. Ca.MP.>3ELL rise*.

My learned and worthy opponent commenced his forenoon speech,
Baying that he found before him a more easy task than he had expect-
ed. Were it a question of rhetoric rather than of logic, I confess I
should have more to fear. He has been more accustomed than I, to
the display of that art. I am rather a matter of fact man, and logic
more than rhetoric has occupied my attention.

I apprehend, however, before this discussion is ended he may find
his task not quite so easy as he would seem to anticipate. And to me
the good book has suggested a caution which I hope always to remem-

ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 27

ber. It is happily couched in these words, " Let not him that buck-
leth on his armor boast as he that taketh it off."

But to examine his defence, so far as in it there is reference to my
speech, has he not made in the very first effort an unfortunate admis-
sion 1 The name Catholic he admits is generic and the name Roman
specific, — and that the term Roman only indicated the church in which
this catholic communion is to be enjoyed : that the universal church
is found in the particular, the genus in the species. Thus we can
have Greek catholic, English catholic, American catholic, as v.-ell
as Roman catholic. These particular universals are susceptible of
indefinite multiplication. And so the catholicity of Rome is specifi-
cally the same with that of England ! !

His second admission is equally unfortunate. He did not seem to
perceive that he argued for me rather than against me, on the word
father. He said that it could not be understood literally. So said I.
How then must it be used but religiously 1 Call no ma.n your religious
or ecclesiastic Father. He has then fully conceded all that I ask. It
is then an absolute prohibition of the Roman Catholic notion of a
supreme holy father. To designate any person pope is then a viola-
tion of Christ's command.

The gentleman has admitted, somewhat reluctantly however, that
the Doway catechism is a standard work, and that the definition of
the church is infallibly correct. My argument hitherto has been to
shew that the supreme head called pope, being of the essential ele-
ments, nay the chief element of the Roman Catholic church, and not
found either in the bible or ecclesiastic history for ages after the chris-
tian era, the church of Rome is a sect in the true import of that
word, and not the mother and mistress of all churches, for she cannot
be older tiian her head, unless a body can exist without and before its
head, which is impossible. It is not the nature of that head, whether
political or ecclesiastic or both, but the simple fact of its existence
concerning which we enquire. The nature and claims of the head
may hereafter lie the subject of exaniinalion. That tlie Roman sect
is divided into four parties, touching the supremacy — one affirming
lliat the pope is tho fountain of all ])owrr |)oUtical and religious —
another t«,'actiing that lie has only ecclesiastic supremacy — a third
party affirming that bis ecclesiastic dominion is over all councils, per-
sons and things spiritual, and a fourth party limiting his jurisdiction
to a sort of executive presidency — is a proposition susceptible of
ample proof, and of much importance, but we wish it to be very
distinctly stated that the question now before us is the fact that a
head, or universal father, pope or patriarch, is not found in tlie Roman
empire, east or west, for six hundred years, and consequently that
during that time that church did not exist, whose four essential ele-
ments, are a pope or supreme head, liishops, pastors and laity.

I arn the mort; diffuse on this point because my learned opponent
seems to mistakr; the question or to confound it with another of a diffe-
rent category. He seems to lie squinting at infalli4)ility, aulliiirity,
order in the ministry, rather than looking \n the face the simple ques-
tion, wtu thrrr. n pope in any church for thi: first six centuries ? Authority
is not infallibility, nor is order, supremacy. I go for autiiority in tho
president of the I'nited States, but who infers thence tiiat I hold tho
president to be infallible I I go for order in the christian church, but
what has thiB to do with the supremacy of the bishop of Roraol

28 DEBAT5 O.-V Tim

Why, I emphatically ask, does the bishop of Cincinnati confound th»
question of fact before us with that concerning the Lcvitical priest-
hood. I have not agitated such a question.

And what have my views of ciiurch order and government to do
with the question before us. Why drag these matters into discussion.
Did I not distinctly saj'^ tliat I came not here to defend the tenets of
any ])arty of Protestants, l)Ut the great principles of Protestantism?
And what have my views of church order to do with the questions at
issue! Of these however the gentleman is wholly misinformed. I am
the advocate of order, of a christian ministry, of bisiiops and deacons
in the church. Without order no society can exist, and therefore no
reasonable man can object citlicr to order or authority in the church.
But again I ask what is this to the question in debate !

He gave us too a dissertation on the passage, " lovest thou me more
than these." This is certainly gratuitous at this time. I am glad
however the gentleman- has delivered himself on this text. But this
is not the question now. We are seeking for a head for the church,
a papal head for the church in the first ages, while our friend is ex-
pounding scriptures on other themes.

To the authority of Du Pin the gentleman seems to except. But
on what authority does he object] His works are certified by the
doctors of the Sorbonne and by the guardians of the Catholic press.
Will he say that he is not an authentic historian? Du Pin was born
and educated, lived and died and was buried in the Roman Catholic
church. The gentleman proved, two or three months ago, that general
La Fayette was a Roman Catholic because he was baptized in the
church of Rome and buried in consecrated ground. Certainly then
Du Pin was all this and more ! It matters not whether he was a Jan-
senist or Jesuit. Both orders have been at different times in good and
bad repute. Jansenists have sometimes been proscribed, and Jesuits
have been suppressed. But th'e question is not, was he a good Ca-
tholic, but was he an authentic historian ? For a good Catholic is one
thing, and a good historian is another. I wish the gentleman to
answer. (Bishop Purcell. 1 answer emphatically, he was not an au-
thentic historian.)

Then this gentleman and the bishop of Bardstown are at variance.
The latter gentleman, if I mistake not, admitted in a discussion pub-
lished in the Catholic paper of that place, that Du Pin was an authen-
tic historian. I have seen this work repeatedly quot^ed in discussions
between Romanists and Protestants, and I do not recollect to have
seen any thing advanced against his authenticity. Mr. Hughes of
Philadelphia, but on different grounds than those stated by my opponent,
did indeed object to him as a faithful witness in his controversy with
Mr. Brcckenridge. However while I wish it to go to the public that
bishop Purcell has objected to Du Pin as an autlientic historian, I will
distinctly state that I rely upon him in this controversy only so far as
he is sustained by other historians, and therefore I will only quote
him in such matters as I know can be sustained from other sources.
Other historians record the same fact, and many of the works which
Du Pin quotes are not only extant but accessible.

The word catholic the gentleman has stated that it is of high anti-
quity and found at the head of some books of the New Testament.
But how came it into the New Testament? Was it Robert Stephens
ef Paris that placed it there in the IGth century as a sort of general

KOMAX CATHOLIC RELIGIO:;. 29

heading to certain epistles, or was it placed there by the apostles
themselves]

Touching the council of Nice and whether Sylvester had anything
to do with its convocation, may hereafter be worthy of discussion ;
at present this is not before us. The decree of the council and its
convocation are distinct things.

Of the texts relied on by me to dispose of the pretensions of supre-
macy, the gentleman has taken special exception to Ep. iv. 11. and
would have different orders of ecclesiastic powers, rather than g'fts
for the edification of the church and the fitting of saints for the work
of the ministrj', to be contained in that passage. But the text says
gifts and not lordships. Of these gifts vouchsafed by the ascended
Savior the first was apostles. " He gave first apostles, secondarily
prophets," and here again " he gave some apostles and some pro-
phets." No supremacy is expressed of an individual. It is not ranks
of authorities like civil or military functionaries, such as magistrates,
aldermen, constables, &c., but gifts of light and knowledge and grace,
the splendid gifts of the Holy Spirit. Gifts of teaching, preaching, ex-
horting, and setting up the tabernacle or cliurch. The apostles had
all authority and all gifts themselves; but they needed assistants and
a distribution of labor, and not an hierarchy, in laying the foundation
and in fitting saints for the work of the christian ministry.

Having now touched all the relevant points in the Bishop's opening
speech, I hasten to my argument.

On examination of the New Testament, the primitive fathers, the
councils both provincial and general, down to the close of the Gth cen-
tury, we do not find in the whole territory claimed by our opponents
as yet, the idea or name of a supreme head, pope, or vicar of Christ.

j\Iy learned antagonist has not produced any such document, and
doubtless he knows if there be any such authority now extant, and
would produce it.

The strong expressions of Saint Gregory in opposition to the title
shew what a singular novelty it was in Rome during "his pontifi-
cate," and his bold declaration not only of the arrogance and blas-
phemy of the title, hilt of its aspfcl to all the bishnps, as annulling
tlieir cfiuality, sulheicntly prove tliat he rigblly approc-iatcd its true
meaning and its hostility to the genius of that simi)licity and humility
which comportfid with the servants of Christ. So far tlien as we have
examined the evidence on iiand, the defence of the Bishnj), the argu-
ment as now developed stands tlnis : — a ])ope, or universal ])atriarcli,
is the first essential element of the Roman Catbolie sect. iJnt there
was no such personage in existence for GOO years after (/brist, there-
fore there was no church of Rome, in the sense of the creed, during
the first six centuries.

We are now prepared to narrate the circumstances whieh ushered
into being the ])ope of Rome. Mauritius the emperor of the K-aM <ii(^d
at the hand of Phocas a centurion of his own army. Mauritius fa-
vored the pretensions of the bishop of Constantinople, and turned a
deaf car to the importunities of Gregory on the subject of taking from
bishop John the title of universal father, so painful to the |)ride and
humility of the great Gregory. For the sainl had written to the em-
peror on the arrogance of .lolm, metroi)olilan of the great diocese of
the east. Mauritius was supplanted and the throne usurped by Pho-
cas. Gregory rejoiced at his Heath, and hailed the elevation of hit
c 2

30 DEBATE ON THK

murderer to the throne. Gregory consecrated him, in the church

of St. John the Baptist at Constantinople, and Phocas, as a re-
ward for his consecration and favorable refrards, conferred upon the
successor of Gregory, Boniface the third, the title of universal patri-
arch in the very sense in which it had been repudiated by Gregory.
Thus in the year GOG two years after the death of the saint, the
first pope was placed in the chair of the Galilean fisherman, if in-
deed Peter had ever sat in a chair inKonie.

Concerning the consecration of Phocas, Mr. Gibbon thus remarks :
" The seiiati- and els rjiv obeyed his summon*, ami as soon as the p,itii:urh
was assiirevi of'liis orlhotlox btlief, lie consecrated the successful usurper in the
church of St. John tiie Baptist. On the tliird day, amidst the acclamations of a
thoug^htless people, Phocas made his public entry in a chariot drawn by four
white horses: the revolt of the troops was rewarded by a lavish donation, and
the new sovereign, after visiting t!ie palace, beliel 1 from his throne the frames
of the hipp )droMu." (iibbon's Derline and Fall Rom. f^nip. vol. viii. p. 269.

But the infidel has good reason to laugh at the saint, where he re-
cords the exultation of Gregory at the death of Mauritius.

"Asa subject and a christirin it was the duty of Gregory to acquiesce in the
established governuient; but the joyful applause with which he salutes the for-
tunes of the assassin, has sullied with inddible disgrace the character of the
saint. The successor of tl:e apostles might have inculcated with decent firm-
ness the guilt of blood, and liic necessity of repentance: he is content to cele-
brate the deliverance of the jieople and the fall of the oppressor; to rejoice that
the piety and benignity of Phocas have Ijeen raised by Providence to the imperial
throne; to pray that his hands may be strengthened against all his enemies ; and
to express a wish, perhaps a prophecy, that after a long and triumphant reign, he
may be trinsferred from a tt-mporal to an evtrlasting kingdom." Id. ib. p. 211.

It looks indeed as if Gregory had permitted the recollection of the
conduct of Mauritius towards his rival to mingle with his exultations
at the elevation of Phocas. When we recollect that Mauritius, his
wife, four sons and three daughters were immolated at the shrine of
the ambition of Phocas because he feared a rival, we are astonished
that saint Gregory could have called heaven and earth to rejoice in his
exaltation to the throne of the Csesars. His words are :

" Btnignitalcm vestrte pietatis ad impcriale fastigium pcrvenisse gaudemus.
Lretentur cij^li et exultet terra, et ''e vestris benignis a'fibus universT! r( ipublicm
populus nunc ii=que vehementer afflictus hilarescat," &c. Greg:. I. xi. ep. 38, ind. vi.

It is not so honorable to the successors of Boniface the third, that
the title of pope in its supreme import, was conferred by so mean a
wretch as Phocas the usuper and murderer, and rather as a reward for
the temporizing and easy virtue of Gregory the first. Boniface, though
in the catalogue of popes he stands the GGth in descent from Peter, was
in truth the first pope of liome in the sense which is placed in the
Catechisms and standards of the present church of Rome.

As yet the power was only ecclesiastic. But power is naturally
cumulative, and especially ecclesiastic. Let any person be imagin-
ed to wear at his girdle the keys of heaven, and the sword of spiritual
power, let him have kings and princes bowing at his footstool, and
we shall soon see him like Napoleon, stretching out his hand not only
to grasp the gorgeous crown of ecclesiastic but of political power.

But to complete the story of the origin of the papal power we must
add a few words on the assumptions of Saint Zachary, or Stephen the
Second. Pepin the father of Charlemagne was in the cabinet of
Childeric the king of France in those days. His master was a feeble
prince and he was an ambitious minister. He knew the power of the
pope, and before he dared to seize the throne of his master he deemed

ROMAN catholic; keligiox. 31

it politic to consult the vicar of Christ. He placed himself before him
in this casuistic style. " Sir," said he, " whether is he that has the
name of prince without the power, or he who has the power without
the name, the rightful sovereign of a nation V The pope answered
him according to his wish. He was then absolved from all self cri-
mination, he seized the crown of his master, and rewarded the pope
with some temporal power: — certain states in Italy which by his son
Charles the great were augmented, till he had the dominion of the
ancient Heruli — the Ostrogoths and the Exarchate of Ravcnnah su-
peradded to his spiritual jurisdiction. Then did he assume the triple
crown and the two swords, and stood forth in full attire as filling all
the prophetic characters of the supreme head of that politico-eccle-
siastic corporation called the church of Rome. — [Time expired.]

Ila'fpast 3 o'clock, P. M.
Bishop Purcei.l.

Fellow citizens — My friend objects to my explanation of the term
" Roman Catholic," He observes that it has turned out no explana-
tion at all. His difficulty of apprehension on this particular point, is to
me, however, perfectly intelligible. The very name of our church is
a proof of its unity and universality ; and this, as he dislikes it, he
cannot, of course, understand. The word 'catholic' in ancient days
was used, as many other old and new words in Webster's dictionary,
for more purposes than one. Its true and principal sense was easily
ascertained in its application to the whole catholic church of Christ.
It was also used to designate the authority of certain chief national
churches, to distinguish them from inferior churches in the same dis-
tricts, and to mark tlie superiority of archbishops and patriarchs over
their brethren in the Episcopacy. The name 'of "Roman Catholic"
shewed the bond of union which bound all these various churches in
the profession of the faith of the chief see of the entire christian
world. Hence it always brought to tlie believer's mind, in every
clime, the church which was the head, — the great, primitive, senior
church, the church of Rome ; and as more people became converted
to the faith, they were called by their different and distinct appella-
tions, as English Roman Catholics — .\mericau lioman Catholics —
French Roman ("allu'lics, &c.

As to the prohibition froni calling any man ^ Father,^ &c. I said it
was not meant literally, and this he seizes as an admission that it is
a prohibition from calling " Eallier" in an ecclesiastical sense. 'I'liis
may be true or not, but it does not prohibit us from calling the head
of our church " father" as one who cherishes, instructs, and otherwise
acts the part of a father towards us; as b(! who adnijts an orjiban
child is, ill a figurative sense, his fiitber, thontrh not literally married
to his mother. 'I'hc gentleman cannot tiiereforo understand me as
admitting his argument in my previous explanation. But this is mat-
ter too insignifieant to waste more time on it.

Mr. Campbell tells ns lb*' cburcli had no bead for GOO years. This
is a 8lrang«» re[)reHeiitatioii ! The cluireh was then a liendless body.
I nf:ver heard of a liody without a licad, (jii wbieh all the members
depend for the vital influences. But was there indeed no head to tho
church 1 Was not Jesus Christ the head ? and I say further that his
servant on earth, his hnmble servant, was the pope. The language
of Christ himself, " on this rock will I build my church," refers not

32 DEBATE ON THE

to the divine head of the church in Heaven, but to the representative
of his divine commission on earth. I afhrm that what Christ thoug^ht
necessary in the days of the apostles, is necessary now^ ; and the
more remote we are from tiiat day, the more necessary does it become.
Jesus Christ well knew that there must be scandals and errors; and
he determined his church should not be left headless. We know this
head exists and where it resides ; but we are not slaves in the Ca-
tholic church. We acknowledge no mere human authority between
us and God. W"e are as free and untrammeled as any people under
heaven. It is not the man, but the authority, we respect. 'I'he man
may err, and if the pope claims a power not belonging to him, we
soon remind him of his mistake. How this lesson has been taught
to a few popes, the history of the church will show.

My friend now contradicts the statement he made to-day. He first
argued that the introduction of patriarchs, archbishops, bishops,
deacons, and so on, into the church, was of exotic growth — and, as if he
had forgotten what he had previously denied, he turns round, and tells
us, nearly in the same breath, that he goes for bishops and deacons and
orders. So far then, Mr. Campbell is a good Catholic, and I congra-
tulate him on this advance towards the truth. [Symptoms of applause
in the audience, were here manifested, but were immediately checked
by the moderators ; and bishop Purcell besought them, once for all,
to abstain from the least demonstration of the kind during the debate.
It was improper in a discussion of this character, and the house being
greatly crowded, much inconvenience would follow, and the debate
could not go on.]

As to the authority he has produced here (Du Pin's Ecclesiastical
history) I will remark that I consider Du Pin a learned man. I would
even select him as a splendid illustration of the strength imparted to
the human intellect by the Catholic intellectual discipline. He was
truly a prodigy of learning and of precision of style. But there was
a plague spot, a gangrene upon him, which must forever neutralize his
authority as a Catholic. Before the gentleman pronounced his name
we had a flourish of rhetoric, and a labored eulogy upon my tact in
managing this controversy. For my part, I must say that I am quite
a novice in these matters — I am not accustomed to debate. My friend
has complimented me upon oratorical powers to which I lay no claim.
If I have any ad vantage, I owe it not to practice but to the force of truth.

Du Pin, on whom my friend relies as Catholic authority, recognized
by the church, was in constant correspondence with Wake, the arch-
bishop of Canterbury. He tried every stratagem to bring about a
re-union of the church of England, and the church of Rome. Leib-
nitz, and many a distinguished name, had previously labored in the
same vocation. But Revd. Dr. Du Pin's motives were, unfortunately,
suspicious. He proposed as the basis of the re-union, the abolition
of auricular confession, of religious vows, of the Lenten fast and ab-
stinence, of the pope's supremacy, and of the celibacy of the clergy.
He was himself, like Cranmer, secretly married; and after his death,
his pretended wife came secretly forward to assert her right to his
goods and chattels. And this is Catholic authority !

It is said these papers were discovered in his study after his death.
But he was censured by pope Clement XI. even during his life-time;
and when, as I have stated, Louis XIV. removed him from among the
Doctors of the Sorbonne, Clement approved the act.

ROMAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 83

If my friend gan produce Roman Catholic authority, let him do so.
But let him not produce one that approaches with a mask. The
authority of Du Pin I have challenged on just grounds; but this has
nothing- to do with the views I have stated upon the great question
we are discussing.

We are told that the commission spoken of in Ephesians, 4th
chapter, "To some he gave apostles, &c." confers, not powers, but
simply gifts. This I deny. St. Paul tells us authority was given to
the rulers of his church by Christ, not for their sakes but that we may
be no longer children tossed to and fro by every xcind of doctrine. They
were not, then, merely gifts, they were powers and authorities to re-
gulate the church, and to rule the people of God. These commissions
are the foundation of the church established on earth by Christ, before
he ascended on high. They were necessary, as the more solid parts
of a temple are first laid, that the whole building may afterwards
have strength, consistency, and symmetry. I deny that the church
ever has been or could be without a foundation. The foundation is
at least as necessary as the superstructure. Christ made Peter, there-
fore, the rock of his church, and was himself the corner stone whereon
that rock rested, as did the whole edifice securely rest upon the rock.

Why has Mr. Campbell anticipated the subject of the third or
fourth day of this discussion, and brought up the pope as the man of
sin — the sea monster of Daniel — the youngest horn of the beast] &c.
For aught I know, he may prove the pope to be the sea serpent — no
doubt his powers of logic are adequate to the task. We shall see.

Again — the pope is not a tyrant, nor does he claim the title of Uni-
versal Father, in tiie sense in which Gregory rebuked John for claiming
it. Mr. Campbell has solved the question beforehand, in stating the
arrogant pretensions of the bishop of C. P. who pretended that all au-
thority proceeded from him. I do not derive all my authority from the
pope. The bishops of the United States consult together. They propose
candidates for the vacant sees; and they send to Rome the names of
three clergymen, marked according to their judgment, "Worthy,
Worthier, Worthiest." The pope generally trusts to their wisdom,
and acquiesces in their choice. It was thus that a certain testimony
of my fitness to succeed the venerable Fcnwick, as bishop of this
diocese, was forwarded to Rome. The sovereign pontifl", Gregory
XVI. ratified the selection of the prelacy of the United States, and
expedited the brief, or letters, in rirtue of which I was ordained a
bishop ; but my power to consecrate, to baptize, and to perform other
episcopal functions, comes not from the pope; it comes like that of
the apostles, directly from God.

There are other denominations, besides the Catholic, that contend
for the necessity of apostolical succession of orders and mission, and
these too are the objects of my friend's sarcasm. I select only two-^
the Episcopalians and the German Reformed.

In the last number of his Millennial Harbinger, in speaking of the
Episcopalian bishop Otey of Tennessee, he asks "why is t)isliop Otey
silent T He either feels that his castle of Kpiscopalianism has been
demolished by the editor of the Harbinger (Mr. Campbell) or he does
not. If he feels that it has been overthrown, as an honest man he
ought to acknowledge it. But if he still thinks that he is adorning
^'' the doctrine of God hy sustaining Elpiscopalianism, let him shew
his strength to such as wish to read both sides of the question. It is

34 DJJBATB 0.\ THE

faith delivered

an apostolic admonition to " contend earnestly for thg
to the saints." . If he is sent of God, as he professes t.o'be, as a faith-
ful watchman on Zion's walls, he should not remain rnute ; but cry
aloud, seeing his opinions have been politely assailed. Percontator.'*

Answer.- — Many reasons might be imagined for bishop Otcy's si-
lence, but I will venture upon only one, viz. that like M. de La Motte
(I presume the witty and pious bishop of Amiens) he is waiting for a
reply to his silc/icc. IIow, &c.

Again — Mr. Lancellot Bell, addressing the editor, Mr. Campbell
(yid. Mil. Harbinger, p. 570.) says " I accompanied brother L. to
Cavetown, where he addressed the citizens, &c. Two of the "called
and sent" of the German lieformed church, considering, I suppose,
their " craft in danger," came to the place, and I spoke against these
things, contradicting, who were going — to express it in. the language
of some of the people, to " lick us up like salt," &c. &c.

Mr. Campbell, therefore, has changed his tone; he is now in favor
of orders ; and this change has apparently taken place withiH a few
days.

I have proved that the headship of the church was no new thing
in the beginning of the fourth century. Du Pin spoke of the decision
of the council of Nice, respecting the contest Jbetween the bishops
of Alexandria and of Rome, but said that this decision of the council
did not disprove the primacy of Rome, so that this doctrine is at least
as old as the year 318, when Sylvester of Rome presided by his
legate Osius of Cordova at the council of Nice. This shows that the
authority of Rome was then recognized. He spoke of the council of
Chalcedon. I have here an authentic historian recognij;ed by the Ca-
tholics, and one who tells sharp truths of individual Catholics, when
he conceives them to be in the wrong. It is Barronius. In his Annals,
year of Christ 451, of pope Leo, 12th, twenty seventh of Valentine and
2nd of Marcian, he says that in this council the authority of the see
<5f Peter was recognized. 360 bishops met in this council. Circum-
stances not permitting pope Leo to assist at it in person, he sent three
legates, two bishops and a priest, to preside in his name. At the first
session Paschasinus, bishop of Lillibeum, and one of the legates of the
pope, preferred charges against Dioscorus, patriarch of Alexandria, for
his uncanonical conduct in the conventicle of Ephesus.

Dioscorus, thus accused and convicted, was compelled to leave his
seat and sit in an inferior place in the middle of the assembly. Sub-
sequently a sentence of deposition was pronounced against him ; and
as his guilt was manifest, he left the assembly and appeared no more.
The fathers of the council unanimously exclaimed that the doctrinal
decisions of Leo were those of Peter himself — " Petrus per Leonem
locutus est" — Peter hath spoken by the mouth of Leo. (vid. Reeves,
1st vol. 263.) the fathers of the council directed to St. Leo asynodical
letter, in which they acknowledge him for the interpreter of St. Peter,
for their head and guide." (vid. Barronius, ibid.) Now here is the au-
thority of the first general council of Nice, as quoted by Labbe.
Greek bishops say :

COL'N'CILS.

" The Roman church has always had the primacy." (Labbe, t. 2. p. 4L)
The second general council and first of Constantinople says :
" Let the bishop of Constantinople have the first share of honor after the bish-
op of Rome." (Alexandria was entitled to the second rank.)

KOM-^VN CATHOLIC RKLTGIOX. 35

The third general council of Ephesus says : ■

'• St. Heter, trie prince and liead of the apostle?, the Ibundation of the Catholic
church, received the keys of the kingdom Vroin our Lord Je«us Christ, and the
power of loosing and of binding sin was given to him, which to the present
time, as it iv.r lias done, subsists and exeicist s judgnuiit in his successors."

The fourth general council of Chakedoh, writing to St. Leo, says :

" We therefore entreat you, to honor our judgment by your decrees; and as we
have adhered to our heacl in good things,' so let your supremacy fujply what
becoineth (or is wanting) for thy children."

The council of Florence in which the Greek and Latin bishops were
present, thus speaks :

" We define that the holv apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold the prima-
cy over the entire earth, and that he is the successor of the blessed Peter, the
prince of the apostles, the true vicar of Christ, and the head of the whole church,"
6:c. T. 13. p. 515.

The general council of Trent, speaks in the following terms :

"The sovereign pontiiis, in virtue of the supreme power delivered to them
over the entire church, had n right to reserve the judgment of certain moiiB
grievous crinxs to tluir own tribunal."

Melancthon holds the following language, as quoted by Bossuet in

his history of the variations. L. 5, n. 24.

"Our people agree, that the ecclesiastical polity, in which are recognized
superior bishops of many churches and the bishop of Rome superior to all bish-
ops, is permitted. Thus there is no contest respecting the supremacy of the
fiope and the authority of bishops, and also the pope and the bishops could easi-
y preserve this authority, for it is necessary for a church to have leaders to
mamtain order, to keep an eye upon those called to the ecclesiastical state, and
upon the doctrine of the priests, and to exercise ecclesiastical judgment, so that
if there were no bishops we would have to make them. The monarchy of the
pope would also serve much to preserve amonpt many nations the unity of
doctrine; wherefore we could easily agree as to the supremacy of the pope if we
could agree in every thingclsr."

Leibnitz, as quoted by De Starck, p. 22, speaks as follows:

" Ai G'oc/is the (lod of order, and as by divine appointment, the body of the
only, apostolic. Catholic church can be maintained by a single, hierarchical and
universal government, it follows, that there must be a supreme spiritual chief,
who shall be confined witliin proper bounds, established by the same (divine)
right, and invested with all the power and dictatorial authority necessary for
the preservation of the church."

FATICF.nS.

St. Irnnaeus of Lyons, the disciple of St. Polycarp, who himself ap-
pears to have been consecratrd by St. .lohn the Evangelist, repeatedly
urges this argument against his contemporary heretics. He says :

" We can count up those who were appointed bishops in the churches by
the apostles and their successors down to us, none of whom taught this doctrine.
Dutas it would be tedious to enumerate the succession of bishops in the differ-
ent rhiirchrs, we refer you to the tradition of that greatest, most ancient, and
universally known church, founded at Home by St. I'eter and St. I'aul, and
which ha* been ])reserved thrre through the succession of its bishops, down to
the nresinl lime."

Tertuilian, who also flourished in the same century (year 150), argues
in the same manner and challenges certain heretics in tiiesc terms:

"Letlbeui produi-e lh<- ori|;in of their church ; l«t thou display the fuicession
of their bisliop", S'l that tin: first of them may appear to have Ijeen orduincd by
an apnslnlir mnv, \\\i:> per«vi r< d in th' ir oininnnion."

St. Athanasius writes to St. Felix, the Roman Pontiff:
" For tliii |)urpf)sc Christ ijlaced you and vour predecessors to guide the ark
•nd to have the care of all trie churches, that von may help u»."

St. Cyprian, in his 55th Epistle, holds the following language:
"They dare to sail and carry l< tier* to the choir of Fcler and the priDcipal
church, whence tacrrdotal unity proceed*."

3(J DEBATE ON TME

St. Aufrustin, who wrote in thn fifth century, mentions the following
among otlior motives of erodihility in favor of the Catholic religion.

"Tlitre are many other tliiiifjs wliicli keep luc in the bosuni of the Catholic
church. The agreement ol tliltereiit people and nations kee|is me tliere. The
authority e!ital)lislie(l by miracles, nourished by liopc, increased by charity, and
confirnu'd by antiquity, keeps me there. The succi ssion of bisiiops in the see of
St. Peter, tlie apostle (to whom our Lord after his resurrection, committed his
sheep to be fed) down to the present bisliop, keeps nie there. Finally the very
name of Cathoijc which, among so many heresies, this church alone possesses,
keeps nie there."

St. Jerome in his 4th Epistle to pope Damasus says:

"I, following no leailer but (lirlst, am in communion with your holiness, that
is, with the chair of Peter. Whoever {;athereth not with you scattereth, that is,
whoever is not of Christ is of anti-Christ."

This is, in substance, the testimony of the bishops throughout the
world, in every age to the present time. — [Time expired.]

Four o'' clock, P. 31.
Mr. Campbell rose and said :

On the subject of the emendation of the term Roman Catholic, by
prefixiniT the word English, &c., I am willing that my friend should
nave all the advantage to be derived from that explanation. I am
willing that he should appear before the public with that explanation,
if he thinks it can help the matter. On the same principle he may
say the Philadelphia Pittsburg church of Cincinnati. The church,
I argued, had no mortal head for six hundred years. He certainly
could not have understood me as denying that Christ was the head
of his church ! I admit that Christ is the immortal head of the church
which is his body, and Christ is her only head. Christ's church re-
quires a living and omnipresent head. She needs not two heads, for
her head is the head of all principality and power. Can the pope be
omnipresent, keeping order in all his dominions]

I was surprised at the gentleman's hypothesis, that if I argued that
the church had no visible and human head for six hundred years, I
then asserted that Christ was not the head of his church. I spoke
not of Christ, but of the great hierarch on earth, who claims to be the
fountain of all power and authority in the church. Could he not
understand me 1

The gentleman says, that the Catholics are as free as others. I ask
have they the same liberty to read the Bible, to think and act for
themselves, as have the Protestants ] I am sorry that he seemed to
take advantage of my acknowledging myself a friend to bishops and
deacons in the church. In my enumeration of the ditfercnt orders, in
the present Roman church, I mentioned ./^rcA-bishops and .^rcA-deacons ;
but he did not hear me say bishops and deacons. They were on pur-
pose loft out of that enumeration, that I might not fall into the error
which he has imagined for me.

I dispose of the gentleman's extract from the Millennial Harbinger
and of his learned remarks upon them, by informing him that he ha3
mistaken the writer : I am not the author of the article in question.

Still I must ask, why this evasion of the question in debate? Why
seek to excite the odium theologicum, on account of some distorted
theory unjustly attributed to mo — on subjects, too, wholly foreign to
this debate ! Are these the weapons by which my learned opponent
is connppllod to defend the " mo/A"/- and mfnfre^s of all chtirches" from

EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 87

the charge of unscriptural, and unfounded assumptions'? Let no one
imagine, however, tliat I am at all opposed to order and government
in the church. As far as concerns oversight, or the having of bishops
to preside over the flock, I am an Episcopalian. lam for having pres-
byters or elders in every church. I do not believe in a church without
presbyters or bishops. So far I am both a Presbyterian and an Epis-
copalian.

On the subject of the primacj'' of Rome, the gentleman quoted Bar-
ronius, and snarled at Du Pin. But it is too late for any bishop of
Rome, or of England to stand up in this nineteenth century and tell
us that Du Pin is not an authentic historian. My friend intimates
that the certificates in the preface were suborned. What a charge on
the learned and venerable author of this work !

\_Bish(tp Purcell here said, that those certificates being in the hook pro-
ved nothing : — that they might have been put there by the printer. "l

I will now read these attestations and vouchers that you may judge
how gratuitous arc the objections and insinuations of the bishop.

THE APPROBATION OF THE DOCTORS OF THE SORBONNE.
"The whole world lias openly declared the esteem which they think due to
the JS'ew History of Ecclesiastical Writers, that we could not but be sensible
of the complaisance shewn to us, since the judgment we had formed of it was
followed, supported and authorized by that of the public.

"All those who have already read them, will here find what will recall to their
raemory many things they may have forgotten, and will see with pleasure, that
our author has reduced their doctrines to certain principles, by whicli they show
their solidity and coherence. Those who wish to read them will here meet
with what will save them much time and trouble; and those that are engaged in
that long and wearisome journey, will at least have tlie advantage of a faithful
and experienced guide, who will lead them only through paths equally sate and
known. Both the one and the other will meet with a piece of criticism which
is always clear, prudent, and upright ; distinguishes what is certain from that
which is false or doubtful; never precipitates the judgment, nor lavs down sini-
ple conjectures in place of demonstrative proofs; gives to every thing what it
merits, purely on its own account ; and the better to attend to reason, banishes
all prejudices and looks at nothing in its search after truth, but truth itself; nor
condenms, only, where it cannot excuse.

"Given at Paris, August 18lb, 1688.

HLAMPIGNON, Rector of St. Merris.
IlIDKUX, K< ctor of St. Innocents."

AI'PRonATION OF THE ROVAF- CENSOR.
" By the order of my lord (Jhanrellor; 1 have read a book, entitled "A History
of the churcli and ff Krclcsiaslical Jlulhors in the sixteenth century " bv Mes-
sieur Lewis Kllifs Du I'in, 1'ries.t, Doctor of Divinity of the Faculty of I'nris,
and Regius Professor of I'hiloso|)hy ; Containing th<' History of the Church,
and of ecclesiastical Authors, and "from the year 1550, to the year 1600; in
which I find nothing to hinder its b'^ing printed.
"Given this 18lh i\:\y of January, 170:}.

BLAMPIGNON, Curate of St. Merris."

APPROnATION OF THF, rX)CTORS OF DIVIMTY OF THE FACUETV OF I'ARIS.
" VVc whose names are under written. Doctors of Divinity of the I'nculty of
Divinity of I'nris, nrtily, that we have examined a book, entitled "A History
of the Chiirrh, and of i-irlesiastinil Authors, in the sixteenth cenlurv;" b\ Meg-
tienr Lewis Lilies Du Pin, Priest, Doctor of Divmity of the Family of Paris,
and Rrgitis Profossor of Philosojjliy : and that we havi; found nothing therein
contrary to the G«tholic faith, or to ^oorl manners. In assurance whereof, wa
have set our haadi this 20th day of Jannarv, 170;{.

IU,ANlPlGi\Oi\, Curat* of St. Merrii.
HIDEUX, CurBt«of St. Innorfntg."
D

^Vyillit

38 DEBATE ON THE

I put it now to the good sense of my audience, whether such testi-
monies arc to be set aside, by saying that the printer may have forged
or printed tliem on his own responsibility.

The divine Avarrant for tlic primacy of the pope is not the question
on which the gentleman read from Barronius. There are two things
in every historj', — the statement of facts, and the comment on those
facts. The opinion of the historian is like the opinion of the reader;
but the facts stated are common property ; and these are the proper
materials of his work. Barronius does not, however, on the point in
debate, state a fad contrary to Du Pin. There were, indeed, prima-
cies at Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem. But
the primacy of a metropolitan, and the doctrine of Sn universal pri-
macy over all metropolitans at any one place, is a different matter. I
could not understand in what sense he meant to be understood when
he said Gregory could not go for primacy in " that sense." Was
there a peculiar mysterious meaning attached to the claim or title
which Gregory reprobated 1 It has not been proved that any contem-
porary understood it so. I affirm that there was not an intelligent
Catholic of that day who understood the title of universal patriarch,
in any other sense than that in which, it is understood among us now.
The person first established in the primacy of Rome exercised a uni-
versal superintendcncy over the church exactly similar to that first
claimed by the bishop of Constantinople.

My friend says, ' the author from whom he read you states the fact
of such a primacy early in the Roman Church.' If we examine the
authority we shall see, it is nothing but tlic opinion of a fallible ma*!;
and that opinion contrary to all ancient history. I affirm that there
is no ecclesiastical historian of authority, who attests the fact, which
he is desirous to prove. It is one thing to state a fact, as a historian,
and another to state an opinion or commentary on a fact. The ques-
tion before us, is not the metropolitan primacy of Rome, or Antioch,
or Alexandria ; but the universal primacy of the whole church !

I admit, as to the council of Nice, what it was said Du Pin asser-
ted, viz. ' that the sixth canon does not deny the primacy of Rome.'
But Du Pin goes further, — (and why did not the gentleman read all
that Du Pin asserts'?) 1 read it all. I told the whole truth respect-
ing it — the gentleman has told you but the half of it — Du Pin says
" this canon does not preclude the idea :" but " ncither,^^ says he, ^^does
it establish z7." I am for quoting the whole authority. Du Pin, as a
Catholic, was endeavoring to find some authority for supporting the
antiquity of the primacy of the see of Rome. He is examining the
canons of the comicil carefully, and he says that though this canon
does not preclude tlie primacy, "vet neither does it establish it."
It afforded him nothing for or against it. And what other decree or
council did establish it 1 ! That ig a secret the bishop will never
reveal.

Let us now return to my argument. I left off at the year 750, and
was in pursuit of the day, when the present church of Rome began.
I hasten to establish it.

It would be both tedious and unnecessary to read, or narrate the
quarrels between Nicholas of Rome and Photius of ^Constantinople,
on the vital question who shall be the greatest 1 wt^t greatly pre-
pared the way for the grand schism. We have not time for this, as
we are now, before we sit down, ti^give you the day and date of the

ROMA^• CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 39

separation of the Roman church from the Greek church, which must
be regarded as the day of her separate existence, when she became
what she now is, a schism, or sed.

There was a violent contest between the patriarch of Constantinople
and the patriarch of Rome, or pope, if you please, (for I state em-
phatically, that the idea of a supreme head of the church had never
been digested in the east, and though the eastern church may have
submitted, or acquiesced for the time being, she never did consent to
it). The promotion of the layman Photius, gifted and splendid as
he was, to the primacy of Constantinople, greatly vexed his holiness
of Rome. Indeed, from the time of Victor, bishop of Rome, A. D.
197, who assumed to exercise jurisdiction out of his proper diocese,
in respect to the observance of Easter, there never was a cordial feel-
ing of unity, or co-operation between the eastern and western por-
tions of the church. The arrogance of Victor, called for strong ex-
pressions of insi^)ordination on the part of the Asiatic brethren, who
claimed for themselves as much license to dictate to the western, as
he had to the eastern church.

The " Catholic" body was not yet divided into two great masses.
Photius had charge of the church of Constantinople. Nicholas of
Rome was indignant that a layman should hold the high dignity of
patriarch of the eastern church, however the emperor and the church
might think. To make matters worse, they excommunicated each
other, which laid the foundation of dissentious and bad feelings, which
to this very day, never have been atoned. For the jealousies and ri-
valries of these two bishops never slumbered nor slept, till the church
was divided into what have since been called the Greek and Ijatin
churches. All iiistorians, give substantially the same account of this
matter. I will read an extract or two from Du Pin.

"riiou;^li tin: Latin aiiO Grcfck cliurchi s were nut in clusi; comiiiunion with each
other ever since the allair of Photius, yet tlir y did not proceed to an open rup-
ture till the tiiut- of pope Leo IX. and oi Michael Ccrularius, patriarch of Con-
stantinople. This breach beijan by a letter which the latter wrote in the year
1053, in his own name, and in the name of Leo archbishop of Acridia and of
all Bulgaria, to John bishop "Of Trani in Jlpiilin, that he niii;ht communicate it
to the pope and to all the w<stern church. In this letter tluy reproved the Lat-
ins, (1) Iiecause they made use of unleavened bread in the c« lebrntion of the
euchnrist. (2) Hcraune tUcy (nsted on Saturdays in Lent. (3) Because they
ent the blood of beasts, and things strangled. (4) Because they did not sing
Jillehiiah in Lent." &c. fcc. Vol. ii. p. 234.

The patriarch of Constantinople first anathematized Leo IX. ec-
clesiastically cur.sed liim and his party, and this may have provoked
severer measures against the Greeks than were at first contemplated
by the Latins. It is, however, an important fact, that the Greeks were
the first exaiinrnitnirutiirs,

'I'iic pope of Rornc! sent three legates to (Jonstantinople, under pre-
tence of liealing the divisions and strifi-s existing, who had, secretly
in their pockrts, a bull of excommunication against tlie patriarch and
his party. 'I'iiey were instructed to exiiort liiiu \o i/irld ; but if tliey
found him incorrigihb-, they were to fulminate against iiim tlie dread
anathema. After a fruitless attempt to bring over the patriarch by
mild means, they entered tlie ehurcli of St. Snpliia, at noon day, on
the IGlh of .Fuly, in the year lO.'ii, and mounting the altar read aloud
the bull of excommimication, before ibe iicopie, anfl thi'U departed,
shaking off tlie dust of their feet against the patriarch, his city and
people. The bull speakR on this wise :

40 DEBATE ON THK

"The Holy Apostolic see of Rome,' which istbechiif of the whole world,
to which as to thu head belongs in a more especial manner the care of all the
churches; has st nt us to this roval city in tlic quality of its kgatts, for the welfare
and peace of the church, that as it is written, we sliould go down and see whe-
ther the cries which pierce its ears from this great city be true or no.

Let therefore the emperors, clergy, senate and people of this city of Constan-
tinople know, that we have here found more good to excite our joy, than evil
to raise our sorrow. For as to the supporters of the empire, and the principal
citizens, the city is wholly christian and orthodox: but as for Michael, who
took upon him the false title of patriarch, and his adherents, we have
found that they have sown discord and heresy in the midst of this city *
■* * because they rebaptized, as did the Arians, tiiose who had been bap-
tized in the name of the blessed trinity, and particularly the Latins; because
with the IJonatisIs they maintain that the Creek church is the only true church,
and that the sacrijices and baptism of none else are valid."

ff" yR 'If v^ tV yf' ^F yfi

The Greek church, he it noted with all distinctness, did stand upon
this point, that she was ike only true church ; and that no ordinance,
baptism or the cucharist. ivas at all valid, nnless administered by her au-
thority.

I will read a little further :

" Michael having been advertized of these errors" &C.&C. " rel'usecl to appear
before, or to have any conference with us, and has likewise forbad our entrance
into the churches to perform divine service therein forasmuch as he had for-
merly shut uj) the churches of the Latins, calling them Azymitw, jiersecuting
and excommunicating them, all which reflected on the holy see, iti contempt
whereof he styled himself CEcuMEMCAL or Universai, Patriarch. Where-
fore not being able any longer to tolerate such an unheard of abuse as was of-
fered to the holy apostolical see, and looking upon it as a violation of the Ca-
tholic faith in several instances, &c., " We do subscribe to the anathema which
our most hol^' father the pope has denounced against Michael and liis adhe-
rents, if they do not retract their errors." &c. Id. ib. p. 236.

If then, there be any truth in history, from that day the present
sect of the church of Rome began its existence.

It never was fully, or cordially conceded by the Greek church, that
the pope was, or ought to be, the universal father ; and it may be
affirmed in all truth, that this was the real cause of the schism.

To recapitulate, thus far, in seeking for the papal head, so essen-
tial to the Roman church, we find it not in the New Testament, in
the ancient fathers, in the canons of the first general councils, nor in
the history of the church, till the commencement of the seventh cen-
tury. On the authority of Barronius, it is said that Phocas gave the
title to Boniface the .3rd in the year GOG. We have also seen, that
Pepin, another usurper, gave temporal estates and political dominion
to the popes about the middle of the 8th century, and that on the 16lh
of July 1054 the Western or Roman half of the church, after having
been first anathematized by the Eastern or Greek half, did solemnly
separate itself from the communion of the Greek church by an
anathema. Hence, both the origin and the name of the church of
Rome. — [Time expired.]

Half-past 4 o^lock, P. M.
Bishop Purcell.

My friend Mr. Campbell has fought a noble battle for me. I shall
prove that presently. Gibbon was an infidel, and became so be-
cause his father would not allow him to embrace the Roman Cath-
olic faith. He was a prodigy of mind, and his intellect was so
precocious 'tliat even when only sixteen years old, he read, I think

BOMAN CATUOLIC Eii^IuIOJf. 41

it was, Bossuet's Universal History, by whicli he w as convinced of
the truth of the Catholic religion. His father (sad proof of the re-
straints on liberty of conscience, as exemplified in Protestant commu-
nities) persecuted him for this, and sent him to Lausanne, in Switzer-
land, where, under the close surveillance of Pavillard a Calvinist
minister, he was confined, debarred the reading of Catholic books,
and fed on bread and water, till at last he yielded his creed for better
fare. He thus became an infidel, and wrote against all religions.
But a man who could tlms shrink from duty to that faith which he
Relieved true, because he was persecuted, was not fit to appreciate the
beauty of the religion that had attracted him ; nor the sublime testi-
mony rendered to its divinity by its martyrs' blood. If he could
thus prove recreant to the only one which he loved, no wonder he be-
came opposed to all.

Such are the authorities against which I have to militate.

The gentleman told us that be would put his finger upon the precise
day and date, as recorded in history, when the Roman church separa-
ted from the holy and ancient apostolic church, but he has not kept his
word. I warrant that that pledge will never be redeemed. (Mr.
Campbell here explained that he had fixed it at the 16th July, 1054.)
If then the Catholic church ceased to be the true church in 1054,
where was the church of Christ? Where was the true Catholic church,
from which the Jioma7i C^thoVic church separated? " Behold I am
ALWAYS with you," says Christ, " and I will send you another Para-
clete wlio will abide with you all days." ."\Iatth. xxviii. 20.

If the true church was no where — if Christ had no witness on earth,
his promises have failed ; and Revelation is a solecism. A church,
unless it be conspicuous, unless every enquirer can 'have access to it,
is of no use as a witness of truth to mankind. If hid, how can it
testify of the true doctrine of Christ to all nations? But mark the
splendid testimony in favor of the purity and watchfulness of the
Roman Catholic church, afforded by history. How did the schism
of the Greek church begin? A layman Photius intruded and de-
clared himself the head of the church. This single fact is a splendid
argument of itself, to prove the necessity of a supreme head to watch
over the church. To use a .Scriptural phrase, he was like a faithful
sentinel upon the walls of Zion, to sound the warning to the world,
or, if you will, not to resemble "a dumb dog," but to bark"at the approach
of the thief, wlie came not in at the gate, but came by another way
into the fold, and he did bark at him ; and Photius and .Michael Ceru-
larius and other Greek intruders and errorists, not content with as-
suming a power not bch)nf>ing to them, actually cursed and anathe-
matized the pope of Rome, a proof perliaps of the amiable character
the gentleman gives the enemies of order and of the pope, but a suf-
ficient reason why the pope should exert all his authority in protect-
ing the church from their usurpations.

But the three legates to whoni the rommissjon was entrusted, car-
ried the bull of excor uiiicalion in tlnir pockets, and they are made

to appear very treacherous because they did not produce It at once,
but tried by pacific measures to bring about a reconciliation. Is it in
the gentleman's eHtimation, then, an evidence of treachery, to rcKort to
persuasive means with an eufrny, hcfnrf a|)pealiiig to thr sword and
involving one's country in war? "Suppose the presnlenl of the United
States sends a minister to a foreign country to obtain the settlement
D 2 6

42 UKHAIi; o.\ lllK

of a disputed question. Does that minister begin by declaring war,
" y forcing his proposal with a bayonet down the throats of the peo-
le to Avhom he is accredited 1 No, he tries every mild means first.

by forcing his proposal with a bayonet down the throats of the peo-
ple to Avhom he is accredited 1 No, he tries every mild means first.
The contrary course would be neither politic nor wise, neither humane

nor in accordance with the rules of civilized society. The great and
the peculiar character of the people of the United States, is neither
to provoke nor to brook aggression. If her rights are violated, she
endeavors to convince the violator of his injustice, to disabuse him
of his error, to win liim back to a sense of rectitude by persuasion
and just remonstrance. ' If this fails, she resorts to arms, and though
she loves peace she is prepared for war. In a word she is terribly
peaceful. Now mark the course of the legates. They entreat Michael
to reconsider his conduct, they urge every argument that zeal can sug-
gest, but finding all their eflbrts fruitless, they afterwards act in pur-
suance of their instructions, \\ith perfect ingenuousness and openness.
Observe their procedure. They ascend the altar of the great church
of St. Sophia, the seventh wonder of the world — at whose portals
stood that large vase for the holy water, wherewith Greeks and Ro-
mans, commemorating the sprinkling of the blood of Christ, by which
our consciences are purified from dead works to serve the living God,
were accustomed alike to bless themselves; and on which were in-
scribed the Greek words "NfWtv h^ifAUfx-xTx [xm y.ov:t} o4"'" " purify O
God, our transgressions, and not our countenance only." They went
on the altar and in a formal speech explained to the assembled multi-
tude what were the grounds of the anathema. The crime of Mi-
chael was that in defiance of the prohibitions both of the old and new
law, he had made eunuchs priests. He was also accused of Arian-
ism. Now the Arians deny the divinity of Christ — I have heard
from some of our most respectable citizens, that Mr. Campbell also
denies that cardinal dogma, but I do not vouch for the correctness of
their assertion. (Mr. Campbell here stated that he did not deny the
divinity of Christ.)

It appears pretty plain from history that the people were for the
legates and opposed to their own usurping archbishop. Why? "The
legates flattered them." But how ? So far from it their whole argument
was directed against a man living amongst this very people, and for
an individual i'ar distant. It is natural to suppose that the people
were prejudiced in favor of their own archbishop and against one who
was a stranger to them. In short, were they not speaking against the
primacy and the assumptions of the ecclesiastical dignitary of the
very church in which they spoke, andof the very people to whom they
spoke. Did they flatter the clergy ] no ; they strongly inveighed
against the unscriptural and uncanonical ordination of the odious eu-
nuchs, by whom the patriarch was surrounded. This was a fine il-
lustration of the zeal for sound doctrine and discipline, displayed in
every previous and subsequent age by the holy see. It was acting
on the apostolic maxim — It is better to obey God than man — That
duties are ours and consequences are God's.

" Oh Timothy, guard the deposit" (of faith) said St. Paul.

"Now the spirit iiianifesdy saith, that in the last tiiiKs, some shall depart
from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, speaking lies in hypocrisy, liaving
their consciences seared with a red hot iron. These things proposing to the
brethren thou shall be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the
words of the faith and of the good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained." —
IrtEp. to Tim. ch. iv. v. 1. 2. 6.

ROMAN CATHOLIC Rr.LIGIOX. 43

Thus on this occasion did the pope.

My friend could not understand in what sense the patriarch of Con-
stantinople claimed the title of universal bishop ; and wanted to learn
how his claim diflered from the present understanding of the office.
He has the answer in this history of facts. He has, cr his authority
Du Pin has for him, admitted that this Michael had said in effect that
he was Lord God over all the earth; and that there was no authorit)^
without his sanction for any officer of the church to perform any of
the ordinances of religion. Even the pope of Kome must crouch to
his feet before he could administer the eucharist or even baptize an
infant. And the historian says that the document accusing the arch-
bishop was read before the people of Constantinople — the very city
where he reigned, where he was known, and where all the facts of
the case were before them. What is the most natural supposition'?
Surely this ; that if that document had not been true the people would
have cried out against it ; — they would not have assented toil. So
that all this is a splendid triumph of the supremacy of the Koman see.
But why refer to particular instances, when ecclesiastical history is
full of appeals made to the bishop of Rome by all the other bishops
of Christendom, and all acquiescing in his decision as not only the de-
cision of Peter, but of Christ himself. "The extraordinary commis-
sion given to Paul," says Bossuet, " expired with him in Rome, and
blending with the authority of Peter, to which it was subordinate,
raised the Roman see to the height of authority and glory. This is
the church which, taught by Peter and his successors, has never been
infected with heresy. This power of binding and loosing from sin,
was given first to Peter and then to the rest of the twelve apostles.
For it was manifestly the design of Jesus Christ, to place first in one
what lie afterwards intended to confer on many, but the sequel impairs
not the commencement, nor docs the first lose his place. All receive
the same power from the same source, but not all in the same degree,
nor to the same extent, for Jesus Christ communicates himself as he
pleases, and always in the manner best calculated to establish the uni-
ty of the churcii." " Peter," says St. Augustin, " who, in the honor
of his |)rimaf,y, rcpresenied tlie entire elnirch, iirsl and alone, receives
the keys, which were next to be coinmuiiieateil to all the; rHlicrs." The
reason of this is assigned l)y St. Covaives of Aries, thiitllie ee(;i(;siastical
authority, first estahiished in a single bishop, and afterwards diffused
among many, may be forever brought back to the principle of unity,
and remain inseparably united in tlie same cliair. This is tin; Roman
chair, the chair of Peter so much celebrated hy the Fathers, in which
they vied with one another in extolling the principality of the ajiostolic
chair, the principal principality, the source of unity, tiie mother
church, the head (or centre) of the episcopacy, whence parts the ray of
government, the chief, the only see which bindeth all in unity."

In these words you iiear Uptatus, St. Augustin, St. (!y|)rian, St.
Irenwus, St. Prosper, St. Avitus, Theodoret, the council of Chalccdon,
Africa and (laul, Greece and Asia, tiie east and the west united toge-
ther. This is the doctrine of all the chureii ; this is its unity and
strength. Here all is strong because all is divine, all is united. And
as each part is divine, the bond also is divine, and the union and
arrangement such that each mrmber acts with the force of the ontiro
body. Henco whilst the ancient bishops said, they exercised author-

44 DBBATH ON THE

ity in their respective churches as the vicars of Jesus Christ and suc-
cessors of the apostles sent immediately by him, they also declared
that they acted in the name of Peter in virtue of the authority given to
all bishops in the person of Peter ; so that the correspondence, the
union and harmony of the entire body of tiic church are such that what
one bishop does, in accordance with the spirit and rules of Catholic
unity, all the church, all the Episcopacy, and the chief of the Episco-
pacy act in concert and accomplish with him.

My friend observes that the Greeks were always uneasy under the
Roman popedom. I admit this to a great extent, but St. .John, and
Polycarp, and Itrtntius and Irenanis (his naine signifies Peace, or the
peaceful) and Eusebius and Chrysostom and a hundred others were
Greeks, and the most eloquent advocates, and the ablest supporters of
the preeminence of the church of Rome above all other churches.

Here then is a cloud of witnesses who furnish an astonishing mass
of testimony to the fact that in the early days, the Greek church as
well as the Latin submitted willingly to the authority of St. Peter and
his successors — the authority necessar}' to preserve order and peace
and unity, &c. in the church of God on earth.

With regard to the controversy of the gentleman with Bishop Otey ;
there was a mooted point between Mr. Campbell and himself. I un-
derstood however that all the discussion was on Mr. Campbell's side.

(Mr. Campbell here explained that he had had a private discussion
with Bishop Otey, and had afterwards written him seven letters upon
the Episcopacy.)

Bishop Pcrcell. I really do not know what Mr. Campbell's tenets
are, or what he believes. My brethren, I am fifjlitirig in the dark. I am
obliged to answer on the spot charges and objections against myre-
ligion which I cannot anticipate, while I really know not \vhat my
antagonist's belief is, what qualifications, what marks of a divine call
to the ministry ho considers necessary, if indeed he believes in any
peculiar separation of any man or set of men, for priestly functions.

Will my friend say definitely, before this assembly, if he believe in
the necessity of such call or mission.

Mr. Campbell. I do.

Bishop Purcell. How is that calling made known, that mission
given?

Mr. Caimpbei.l. By the word and providence of God.

Bishop Purcell. How can we ascertain that word and providence
of God 1

Mr. Campbell. By the voice of the people and the written word —
'• vox populi vox Dei."

Bishop Purcell. Suppose the people are displeased, for instance,
with a Presbyterian pastor, have they the sole power to remove him?

Mr. Campbell. Yes.

Bishop Purcell. Suppose the ministry of a Presbyterian church
are displeased with him, and the people of his church are pleased with
him. May be then retain his station against the will of the ministry?

Mr. Campbell. If the people will have it so, it must be so. " Vox
populi, vox Dei"!

Bishop Purcell. There my brethren, you have heard him! Such
dpclarations !

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOrt. 45

SATURDAY, January 14th., Half past 9 o'clock, A. M.
Mr. Campdei.i. rose and said :

I shall resume the subject where I closed yesterday evening, reserv-
ingr my remarks on the last speech of my opponent till the conclusion
of my present argument.

The gentleman read in the various reasons assigned for the bull of
Nicholas, against the patriarch of Constantinople and his brethren,
among others, the statement that the Greeks pretended to be the only
true, catholic and apostolic church. It would not be difficult to prove
from history that in point of seniority, the Greek church has a superior
claim to the Roman. It is first in point of time, and claims a regular
descent from the apostles. There is one strong argument in her favor
which never has been met. To her belong the first seven councils.
They were held in Grecian cities, called by Grecian emperors, and
composed of Grecian bishops. They were wholly Grecian. The Ro-
man church has no right to claim them. And if the doctrines proclaim-
ed by these councils be true, they are the doctrines of the Greek church
subsequently borrowed by the Romans.

As this is an important point, I will expatiate a little more fully up-
on it. I have taken the trouble to collect the following facts: at the
finl council of Nice there were 318 bishops: of these 315 were Greek
and 3 Roman. This was the first general council, A. D. 325. At the
first council of Constantinople, (the second general council of the
church,) A. D. 381. there were 150 bishops ; of these 149 were Greeks,
and only 1 was Roman. At the third council held at Ephesus, A. D.
431, there were but G8 bishops present. Of these 67 were Greek, and
one was Roman. At the fourth general council, which was the largest
and most authoritative of the first four, held at Chalcedon A. D. 451,
against Kutyches, there were present 353 bishops: 350 of whom were
Greeks, and only 3 Roman. At the second council of Constantinople
{iheffth general council) there were presetit IGl bishops: 15G of
whom were Greeks, and C> Romans — held against Origen and others,
A. D. 553. At the third council of Constantinople, (and the s/.r//( gen-
eral council,) there were 5G bishops present : 51 of whom were (ireeks,
and 5 Romans. This council met against the Monothelitcs A. D. G80.
At the second roimcil of Nice, (the seventh general council,) there
were present 377. bishops; 370 f>f whom were (ireeks, and 7 Romans.
Th y met to restore images, A. D. 787. These were the firxt seven
genera/ councils of the church. I have been at the pains to make this
collection of facts, to ascertain the merits of the controversy between
the Greek and Roman sects, as respects the question to whom of
right bflontr liie (If)ftrines of the ancient councils. 1 find that the
■whole nnnihrr of bishops in these councils was 118G: only 'JG of
whom were Romans, f'ertainly the Greek church has the prior claim
on our.attenlion, and ought to be revered for her antiquity and author-
ity, more than the schism which haughtily separated from her !

Hut, in adilitifju to thesr- councils having been called — not by the
authority of the church of Rome : but by eastern emperors, and com-
posed of eastern bishoj)s; every great question discussed in the first
four; and, indeed, I rnay add, in the last three counciln, was of Gre-

40 DEBATE ON TUB

cian orisfin. Tliey grew up in the Greek school — a school easily dis-
tinguished from the Latin, by the peculiar subtiliy of its definitions —
a school long accustomed to nice distinctions, and whose reasoners
could split the thousandth part of an idea. Of this, their wars about
homousion and /innionusios are ample proof. There are no questions
more purely abstract and nietnpliysical than many of those discussed
in these seven great ecumpnical co\mcils.

Again, these councils were not only called by Greeks, composed of
Greeks, and occupied about Greek questions ; but were all assembled
in Grecian cities.

If there be any virtue in councils to establish doctrines and the prior-
ity of churches, the Greek church must be considered the mother of
the Roman, rather than her daughter. At all events, it is fully proved
that the Roman Catholic church is a sect or schism, which is the bur-
then of the proposition before us. To strengthen this conviction, I
proceed to comment on a standard definition of Catholicity.

I would now ask if there be any objection to the book which I hold in
my hand, as a good Roman Catholic authority. I believe it to be the
true standard of the Roman Catholic church. It is " //«e doctrine of
the council of Trent, as expressed in the creed of pope Pius the IV." But
■while the word "catholic" is in my eye, I am reminded that my
friend has asserted, ' that catholic is a scripture title of the church.' I
reply that it is not so used in the New Testament; and that it is only
found as a general, running title to some epistles : that its antiquity is
very doubtful, as it cannot be found in the body of the book ; and, con-
sequently, it has no authority. But now for the defiiiition from the
approved standard of the church:

Section IV. Under the head, " Tliat ihechurch of Christ is CATHOLIC or
Universal," it is asked.

What do you understand by this ?

Answer. "Not only that the church of Christ shall always be known by the
name of Catholic, by which she is called in the creed; but that she shall also
be truly Catholic or Universal by being the church of all ages and nations."
p. 15.

We have been showing that the church of Christ was not originally
known by the name catholic ,- that the Roman sect was not the church
of the first six centuries ; and, therefore, that the approved definition
of the creed will not apply to this party. I have proved that she had
no pope, or supreme head, for full six hundred years, and in corrobora-
tion of the argument, drawn from general councils, I have shown that
the first seven were not hers, but peculiarly those of the Greek church;
and that the Greek church is, in fact, the mother.

But there are yet other, and perhaps stronger arguments to show
her daughtership. Some of my audience can appreciate the following:
That the Hebrew is a more ancient language than the Greek, and the
Greek than the Roman, needs not be stated but for a few. One proof
of this fact is, that the Hebrew has given many words to the Greek,
while the Greek has given none to the Hebrew. So the Greek has
given many words to the Latin, while the Latin has given none to the
Greek. Thus we prove the Roman church to have come out of the
bosom of the Greek, from the fact, that all the leading ecclesiastical
terms in the Roman church are Greek. For example : ^^pope," ^^patri-
arch" '■'■ synod" "ecclesiastic,'''' "schism" "schismatic " "heresy," "here-
tic," "heresiarch," "catechumen," "hierarchy," "church," "chrism,"

R05LVN CATHOLIC RELIGION.

''exorcism^'' '■'akoluiM," ''diocess,'' ''presbytery,''' ''trimly," "mystery,"
"mystic," "catholic," "canon," &c., &c., &c. This as fully proves
the seniority of the Greek church, as it does that of the Greek lan-
guage over the Latin.

All ancient ecclesiastical historians, are also Greeks, such as Euse-
bius, Socrates, Scholasticus, Evagrius Scholasticus, Sozomon, Theo-
doret. The most ancient and primitive fathers are also Greek. They
were models to the Latins and imitated in their writings.

To recapitulate, we have now shown that the Greek church is more
ancient than the Latin church ; because the first seven general councils
were all Greek, there being 1186 Grecian bishops and only 2G Roman
bishops present, they were called by Greek emperors, held in Greek
cities, and employed about Greek questions.

The leading ecclesiastic terms of all the ancient offices, customs
and controversies, are Greek : So are the early fathers and liistorians.

These considerations superadded to the facts and documents of yes-
terday, we think fully prove that the Roman church is not the church
of all ages and of all nations — not the catholic and apostolic church, as
the creed of Trent defines; but a sect, a branch or schism, from the
Hebrew and Greek churches of the New Testament.

In proving the proposition before us my plan is to select one of the
grand elements embraced in the standard definition of the church, and
to show that such being essential to the church, the church could not
exist without it. Now, I prefer the arithmetical mode of procedure in
this discussion. First lay down the rule and work a single question,
and then leave it to others to work as many as they please.

Thus I first laid down a definition of the Roman Catholic church
from her own standards. From that it appeared that a pope or univer-
sal bishop is an essential element of her existence. T then showed that
six hundred years had elapsed from the time of the apostles, before the
doctrine or existence of a univi»rsal bishop was thought of, and that the
office was not instituted till the year G06, But when I have proved
this, I have worked only one question. Any one may take up the doc-
trine of transubstantiiition, the worship of images, purgatory, (a doc-
trine more ancii^nt hovvnvcr, than citlicr the (J reek or Roman church,)
and every other peculiar doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, and
prove that not one of them is to be found in the divine book, nor in the
records of the church.

What, let me now ask, is the great point in my first proposition 1
To provf that tlio Roman Catholic church is not "the rfiother and mis-
tress" of all churches ; but a sect, in the full import of that word ; and
if that be not now proved, I kimw not what can be proved. I admit
the subject is capable of much more extensive developement ; hut we
think it iifillu^r nercssary nor ex|)edient to be more diffuse.

"Will l\\v presiding moderator please read my first proposition ]

[Here proposition No. 1. was read by lin; moderator.]
say then she is not the holy, apostolic, catholic church, as she pre-
tends to bo ; for in proving her to be a sect, I prove her to be not ratho-
lic, nor apontolic ; because the true apostolic clinrch catuiot be called a
sect. To prove lier to be a sect is to |)rove her not Catholic, therefore,
nor apostolic. What remains now 1 Even on the roncessidn of my
opponent, she is not the Calhalic church ; for ho admits, that the (ireek
church differed from her only in a few non-essential matters. On that

48 DEBATi: ON TUB

admission, if he admits that persons are saved in the Greek church ;
she must be a part of the church of Ciirist ; for with him, there is no
salvation out of theciuirch.

In the next place my ])roposition says ' she is not Italy.'' I am im-
pelled by a sense of duty, and not by any unkind feelings towards such
of my fellow citizens as belong to that community, to attempt to prove
that the church of Home is not holy. 1 would not heedlessly or need-
lessly offend against the feelings of an Indian, a Hindoo, or a Pagan,
in his sincere devotions, how absurd soever they niigiitbe. Much less
would I wound any one that professes the christian religion under any
form; but in serving my contemporaries, in riideeming my pledge, it
has become necessary to investigate the grand pretensions of this fra-
ternity, that exclusively arrogates to itself the title oiholy.

Not to expatiate at (his time on the vices of the clergy and of the popes
what the cardinals Barronius and BcUarmine have so fully noticed, and
sometimes specially detailed, I shall take a single text from Bellar-
mine, De. Eccl. lib. 3. c. 7. which avows a doctrine that must for
ever make the Roman church unholy. It is expressed in these
words: —

" Wicked men, infidels ami reprobates remaining in the public profession of
the Romish church are true nienibers of the body of Ciirist."

How then can we admit that she is holy'? Again : it must be ad-
mitted that the great mass of all those who die in the faitli and profes-
sion of the Catholic doctrines are not strictly holy ; for why then should
they have to pass through the fires of purgatory ?

But again ; in her own Testament (if she have a Testament. The
gentleman may, indeed tell us his church has no English Testament ;
for she never owned but the Vulgate. She never gave to her people,
with approbation a French, or English, or any vernacular Testament.
The Rhemish Testament is, however, published by the authority of a
portion of the church ; and from it we can find the doctrine of Bellar-
mine explicitly taught in the notes appended, by the same authority
which gave the Testament) in her own Testament, I repeat it, on John
XV. 1. these Roman annotators say : —

" Every branch in me, &r." Christ hath some branches in his body mystical
that be fruitless; therefore, ill livers also inav be members of Ciirist's church.'"

"Ill livers''' (mark it) " may be members." This is repeatedly sta-
ted in various places, and as I understand, avowed by ail that commu-
nity, as the true doctrine of the church. " 111 livers,'''' wicked men, in-
fidels, reprobates, vicious characters, those guilty of crimes of every
enormity and color, may then continue members of the Roman church,
while they acknowledge the pope and the priesthood, and make profes-
sion of faith in the Catholic church ; she therefore counts within her
fold 150.000,000 of souls, as my opponent staled in this city in October
last. All that happen to be born in Catholic countries, infidels, athe-
ists, and all, are enrolled in her communion. Her gates are wide as
the human race. It is all church and no world with her. Tiic lusts of
the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, are found in her
communion.

The Roman Catholics in the United States are probably the best body
of Catholics in the world. I mean those who are native citizens. But
visit Old Spain or New Spain, Porlug-al, Italy, Austria, Fran<;e, or Can-
ada, where Catholicism is the established religion ; and then ask whe-
ther holiness be a distinguishing attribute of the depraved and degraded

B03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 49

onllions who call themselves Roman Catholics! This with me is no
very pleasant theme, and I will not extend my remarks on this point by
unnecessary details. I have said enough to prove the allegata in my
first proposition, and to show that the church of Rome is a sect and not ^
the holy, apostolic church of Christ, as she proudly and exclusively
pretends. I am willing io submit these documents to the severest in-
vestigation ; and if other arguments and facts are called for,.! will only
add, we have them at command.

My learned opponent seems to imagine that when 1 fix the birth day
of the Roman Catholic church, on the 16th day of July 1054, I must
admit that the church from which she separated was the true and uncor-
Tupted church of Christ ; but this is what logicians call a nonsequitur.
It does not follow. The gentleman seems to reason as if it were inva-
riable that when one sect separates from another, the body from which
it separates, must necessarily be the true church. This is not logical.
A new sect may spring from the bosom of the worst sect on earth ;
but does this prove that the mother sect has piety, character, or author-
ity ? Neither does it follow that in the year 1054 the Greek church,
though the mother or sister of the Roman, was the true church of Christ,
When it becomes necessary, I may show that both the Greek and Ro-
man schisms had long before 1054, been separate from the apostolic
church.

Protestants have all concealed too much in every age and period of
this controversy. Even now there is a morbid sensibility upon this
subject among some, lest we should make Christ's church too indepen-
dent of the pope's church. ' In reproaching the mother church,' say
they, " you reproach us, also."

In one of the periodicals of this morning it was intimated that the
fates and fortunes of some Protestant party are involved in the pending
controversy. Be not afraid of the insinuations of such political alarm-
ists. I stand here as a Protestant, not as a Baptist, or Methodist, or
Episcopalian ; but to defend Protestantism. I am not afraid to meet
any antagonist on these premises. In advocating the great cardinal
principles of Protestantism, I feel that I stand upon a rock. There is
nothing in hazard. I am sorry to see this sort of sensibility manifest-
ed. Can the truth suffer from discussion 1

In the mean time I will proceed to the second proposition, which will
much illustrate and confirm the argument already offered in proof of
the first. These great points so embrace one another, and are so in-
timately allied, that none of them can be fully demonstrated without re-
ference to the others.

"Prop. II. Her notionof Apostolic Succcfgion is without any Tuundation in
the Bible, in reason, or in iVirl ; an imposition of the most injurious ronscquen-
CM, built upon unscriptural and anti-scriptural traditions, resting wholly upon
the opinions of intcrrstetl and fuftible men."

Before I heard that the bishop intended to meet me in debate, I had
resolved to deliver a scries of lecttires, on the whole pretensions of the
Roman f'hurch, in the following order: 1st her aposlolicity, 2nd anti-
quity, 3rd infallibility, Itli Buprnmacy, .'itii ratlmlicity, fith unity,
and 7th sanctity. These seven great topics, I intended to discuss at
full length. Each involving the others, none of them is so isolated as
to be susceptible of an independent and separate developement. The
very term apoiioliciiy involves uniiquily: hence, we find her pretending
E 7

50 DEBATE 0:V TUB

to trace her descent, by regular steps, back to Peter, who, she asserts,
was the first bishop of Rome.

" Only those that can derive their lineage from the apostles are the heirs of the
apostles: and consequently they alone can claim a right to the scriptures, to the
administration of the sacraments, or any share in the pastoral ministry. It i«
their proper inheritance which tliey have received from the apostles, and the
apostles from Christ. 'As mj- father hath sent me, even so I send you.'" John
XX. 21. [Grounds of Cath. Doc. p. 17.

This is the doctrine of the creed of pope Pius iv. and a more glaring
assumption is not easily imagined. This church, however, delights
in assumption. She assumes that Jesus Christ did establish a church
of all nations, to be ruled by a sort of generalissimo, or universal
head, who was to be his vicar on earth ; by virtue of whose ecclesi-
astical power she assumes for him political power ; for his logic is,
that Jesus Christ's vicar must represent his. master in all things, in his
political as well as his ecclesiastical power. And as Christ himself
possesses all authority in heaven and on earth, she assumes that the
pope his vicar ought to be the fountain of all power : that by him
kings should reign, and princes decree justice. After having thus as-
sumed, that Christ did establish such a kingdom and headship on earth,
that he did constitute the office of a vicar for himself and of a prince of
the apostles ; in tiie second place, she assumes that this headship was
given to Peter, that Christ gave the whole church and the apostles
themselves in charge to Peter; that he gave him absolute control over
the bishops, pastors and laity ; and in the third place, to complete
the climax of assumptions, she assumes that Christ established a suc-
cessorship to Peter throughout all ages. On this triple assumption
rests the colossal empire of the papacy.

Now, as to the nature of the apostolical office be it observed with
brevity, that it was essentially incommunicable. Holy writ recogni-
zes but three orders of apostles, and none of them had lineal succes-
sors. Jesus Christ, the apostle of God the Father, was thejirst. He
is called in the New Testament, " the Jpostle and high priest of the
christian profession." It is not necessary to prove that he could have
no successor. Second, the twelve apostles, who were apostles of
Christ, as he was the apostle of God. In John xvii. he says, "As my
Father made me his apostle, so I make you my apostles." These then
being personal attendants on the Messiah, could have no successors.
Third, Apostles sent out by particular churches, on special errands.
These are called in the New Testament ii <t7ro<rrcKoi tw tnKkwiav. These,
always sent on special errands, could have no successors.

If the qualifications of the apostolic office were understood, there
could be no controversy on the question of successors. As laid
down by Peter, Acts i. it behoved them to have been companions of
Christ from his baptism to his acsension, to be eye and ear witnesses
of all that he did and said. In this essential requisite they could have
no successors. Besides, if one should have a successor, why not all?
While the college of apostles was necessary, we see that succession
was full}"^ carried out. Therefore, the chair of Judas the traitor deman-
ded a successor as well as that of Peter. But yet we have not heard
of any controversy about the successor of Judas!

Our first argument against the Catholic notion of succession is drawn
from the nature of the apostolic office.

But did we concede that the apostolic office was communicable, and

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 51

that Christ did appoint a president of the apostles, and place his chair
in Rome, there is no document on earth, from which we can learn with
any degree of certainty, that Peter was ever bishop in Rome. And yet
Catholics themselves, contend that it is essential to the cause of the
succession and supremacy that Peter placed his see at Rome by Christ's
commandment.

Bellarmine positively affirms ;

" The right qjf succession in the popes of Home isjlitinded in this, that Peter
by Christ's appointment, placed his seat at Rome, and there remained till his
death." Lib. il. c. 1.

This resolves the controversy into a single question of f\ict, viz.
Did Peter, by Christ^s appointment, place his seat at Rome and there re-
main till death ? Barronius, however says;

" It is not improbable tliat our Lord fjave an express command that Peter
should so fix his see at Rome, that the bishop of Rome should absolutely suc-
ceed him. [Id. H).

Only probable ! But there is no such succession in fact. In the
first place, there is no proof from scripture that Peter ever was at Rome,
much less, bishop of Rome ; and secondly, if he were an apostle, he
could not be the bishop of any church. A king, a justice of the peace,
the bi.^hop of London, the vicar of Bray ! It is, on these premises,
impossible to prove this most fundamental question.

V'arious efforts have been made by the bishop of Cincinnati to ex-
cite Episcopalians and others on this question, as if they were likely
to be involved in the same common ruin wMth my opponent's preten-
sions. There is no need for any alarm on this account. The ollice of
pope and his succession, certainly, are not identical with that of
Episcopalian bishops in England or America !

There is no body of men who have done more to elevate English
literature and science, than the English clergy, none whose writings
I have read with more pleasure than theirs, on all subjects pertaining
to general literature, morality and religion. In some of them, indeed,
we find weak as well as strong places, and a too great limidity in
contending against the Romanists, lest they should endanger their right
of Episcopacy. I incline to tlic ojnnion, that the pretensions of the
church of Rome may be fully caiivvissed without at all jeopardizing
the simple (|uestion of the divine riglil of lOpiscopacy. But if we at-
tempt to bring a clean thing out of an unclean ; or expect to find a di-
vine warrant in the commission given to tlio apostles ; or in the Ro-
man Catholic traditions ; we shall never find it to the day of eternity.

Successors must be successors in full, or they are not successors at
all. To illustrate this — does not the existiii^f president of tlic United
•States inherit all the power and authority of (Jeorgc Washington, by
virtue of constitutional succession ? Does he not possess the same
power, in all its length and breadth, its height and depth, as did his
predecessor, from the first to the last ? This is true of every constitu-
tional office in the rivilized world. All the power which any prede-
cessor can have, belongs to every incumbent : So in the church, if it
have constitution at all.

If the apostles have successors, they have successors in full. But
the Roman Catholics themselves give up the controversy, by admitting
that none of the bishops or pnpeH inherit the power and functions be-
stowed upon the apostles by llie commission.

I do not, indeed, found my argument for the divine right of bishops

52 DEBATE oy THE

or elders, and deacons, on the commission, which Jesus Christ gives
to his apostles; and I am prepared for all the consequences of this ad-
mission. For by every rule of interpretation, I must apply every word
of the commission to the apostles ; because it addresses them only»
But let none be alarmed at this declaration : nothing is jeopardized —
ratlier, indeed, all is secured by it.

In the presence of the apostles alone, he pronounced these words;
" All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me ; go you there-
fore and convert all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the
Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all
the things which I have commanded you ; and lo, / am with you al-
ways, even to the conclusion of this state," or to the end of the age or
world.

This commission created plenipotentiaries : it reared up ambassa-
dors, and gave to the apostles the same power of erecting the church^
which God gave to Moses for raising the tabernacle in the wilderness.
They had all the authority of Christ to set up what orders they pleas-
ed. They created both bishops and deacons ; and as they had a di-
■vine right to do so, so those created by them have a divine right to
officiate in the duties of those offices. A true interpretation of the
promise, '•'■ I am with you,'''' will go far to confirm the declaration, that
they neither had, nor could have successors in office. Of this, how-
ever, again —

Meanwhile, it may be objected that Paul was an apostle, and ac-
ted without this commisf5ion. He had, indeed, a special commission,
and the qualifications of an apostle. He had seen and heard the Lord.
For to this end the Lord appeared to him. But as respected time, he
acknowledged he was born rather two late to be an apostle — he was
" born out of due time.'''' How, then, could any of them have succes-
sors at this day !

The gentleman mentioned some two persons in the Old Testament.
They could have no successors in office, according to the argument on
hand. It was absolutely impossible that Moses could have a succes-
sor, flis office and commission were really from God, and strictly
peculiar to himself. He brought the Jews out of Egypt, and erected
the tabernacle ; this was his peculiar office, which, in its very nature,
expired when once its duties were fulfilled. The commission of Joshua,
fn like manner, was also peculiar to himself, and could not possibly de-
scend to a successor. When he led Israel across the Jordan, and di-
Tided the land by lot amongst them, his works and office naturally ex-
pired. So when the apostles preached the gospel, revealed the whole
will of Jesus Christ, and erected his church and all its proper officers
and duties, their work was done, and they, like Moses and Joshua, be-
ing officers extraordinary, could have no succcssors.-[Time expired.}

Half past 10 o block A. M.

Bishop Purcelt, rises.

Here is, beloved friends, as plain and logical a case for argumenta-
tion, and as fair an opportunity afforded for refutation, as ever the
annals of controversy exhibited. The first argument of my friend
amounts to this, viz: That for reasons he has given, the Greek church
ias superior claims upon our attention to the Roman.

I have quoted councils, general and particular laws, usages, appeals,

RO>IAN CATHOLIC BELIGION. 53

the authority of Greek and Latin fathers, that is to say, the most au-
thentic testimony of the first ages, to show that with Rome was the
primacy of all the churches. This, at once, upsets all that he has said.

He says the first seven councils were Greek; and that therefore the
Greek church had the preeminence. But, I ask, who convoked those
councils ■? Who approved them ■? Who sanctioned their canons, and
gave throughout the entire church .the force of law to their decisions?
Who guarded them against errors, and set them right when they were
going, or had gone astray'? It was the pope. I have already said,
that Sylvester, hishop of Rome, aware of the danger that menaced the
faith in the east, convoked the great council of Nice — that the
emperor Constantino, the ruler of the east and west, of Rome and
of Constantinople, the man, consequently, upon whom as chief magis-
trate of the Roman empire it devolved, afforded the necessary facilities
to the various bishops to come to the council. Again, who presided
as legate of the pope 1 Osius of Cordova, in Spain, a western man,
assisted, as is and has been customary, by two inferior ecclesiastics.

The jealous Greeks beheld all this, and surely they would not have
permitted Rome thus to assume the supremacy, if her right to it had
not been universally admitted since the days of her founder St. Peter.
Is it not the most splendid proof of the correctness of my argument?
The strongest evidence that could be desired of the discomfiture of
ray adversary?

I thought to have seen a more powerful display of logic from the
strong and disciplined mind of my friend Mr. C; but 1 attributed the
poverty of his argument to indisposition on his part, or to the weak-
ness of his cause.

Well, another reason is stated, to prove the supremacy of the Greek
church, viz. : that the questions discussed in these councils were of
Greek origin. Is it then to be wondered at, that as almost every error
in the old church originated in Greece, it should be there corrected ?
that the remedy should be applied where the disease existed ?

The Greeks were at all times a curious, inquisitive, restless people.
The passion for disputation displayed in the schools of the philosophers
was, as by contagion, communicated to many of the professors of
Christianity. But the manner in whicli it operated upon the one and
the other was essentially different. With the philosopher such ques-
tions were objects of understanding only, subjects of speculation;
whereon the ingenuity of a minute mind might employ or waste itself.
But with the christian thoy were matters of truth and falsehood, of
belief or disbelief, and he felt assured that his eternal interests would
be influenced if not decided by his choice. As soon as the copious
language of Greece was vaguely applied to the ilefinilion of spiritual
things, and the explanation of heavenly mysteries, the field of conten-
tion seemed to be removed from earth to air, where the foot found
nothing stable (nothing like the rock of Rome — new and striking
proof of its necessity) to rest upon ; where argumrnts were easily
eluded, and wiicre the space, in which to fly and rally, was infinite.
Add to this the nature and genius of the disputants; for l/ic oripin of
tliese dinputcs muij hi: traced vilhnut avi/ iTciplinu In llic rcntln^n imagina-
tions of the. Kaxl. The violent temperament of the orientals, as it was
highly adapted to the reception of religious im])re3sions, and admitted
them with fervor and earnestness, intermingled, so closely, passion
E 2

54 DEBATE ON THE

•with piety, as scarcely to conceive them separable. The natural ardor
of their feelings was not abated by the natural subtilty of their under-
standing, which was sharpened in the schools of Egypt; and when
this latter began to be occupied by inquiries in which the former were
so deeply engaged, it was to be expected that many extravagances
would follow, Vid. Waddington, p. 92.

Yet, because it was in the east that the heresies in the ancient day
of the church commenced, and in the east the councils met to correct
those heresies, the Greek church must therefore have been the true
church ! Such is my friend's argument ! and it is now plain, that a
feebler, a more inconclusive, and a more irrational one, he could scarce-
ly have advanced before this enlightened assembly. But what is still
more remarkable, did not these very councils, these Greek councils,
establish by their own acts, and these of the most solemn and authentic
character, the supremacy of the Roman seel Did they not solicit the
pope's approbation of their decrees, and acknowledge that without his
sanction their proceedings were void of effect 1

He says that the emperor presided. I have already answered that
the emperor did not preside. He distinctly acknowledged the spiritual
to be independent of the temporal power, he alleged that he pretended
to no right to preside. He knew that God never told the emperors,
his predecessors, to preside over the deliberations of his church. The
constitution of that church had been established three hundred years
before Constantine became a proselyte to Christianity. It is unheard
of that a temporal monarch ever presided over the deliberations of the
church, or ruled in ecclesiastical matters. At least we catholics submit
to no such dictation — such a confusion of things divine and human —
such an anomaly ! I am sorry it is allowed in England. In that coun-
try even a woman may be, for a woman has been, the head of the
church, as in the instance of queen Elizabeth ; nay, a little child, as
in the case of Edward. It is contrary to reason, to scripture, to human
rights and divine ordinances, that such as these should presume in any
situations, to give or withhold authority to the ministry, to preach the
gospel of Christ, or to dispense the mysteries of God. It outrages
every feeling of sanctity, it degrades, it vilifies the priesthood, to see
bishops and archbishops kneeling at the feet of women and boys, and
praying them to grant a license to preach.

My friend has charged me with making professions of respect for
Episcopalians and Episcopal methodists, &c., but do I suppress the
truth, and do I fail to censure them where they too are wrong. My
friend has gratuitously presented himself before this assembly as the
champion of Protestantism; and I have shown that he is, if at all, but
little less opposed than I am to the denominations I have named, on
the vital point of orders and a called and sent ministry. He would
amuse them with an equivocal defence of their principles to-day, and
then present them with his own views in theology — with Campbell-
ism, baptized Protestantism, — [Here the moderators called Bishop
Purcell to order.]

My friend, learnedly, (and I give him credit for it,) showed how it
came that there were so many errors and questionable doctrines in the
Greek church. I have stated the causes, humanly speaking, of the
errors. It is then, an undisputed fact, that they were more numerous
in the Greek than in the Roman church ; that the Roman church was

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 55

Comparatively free from theni. But he has plainiy misconceived the
inference to be drawn from the fact ; and it is this : that as Rome
was the primary see, the centre of unity, the mother and mistress of
all the churches, God watched over her with peculiar care, and pre-
served her from the errors and heresies that proved infinitely more
fatal than the pagan persecutions, to the churches of the east. While
they were distracted, the Koman church was united in faith ; while
they were in danger of breaking to pieces the edifice of faith, she was
consolidated, herself, and laboring to consolidate them under one creed.
If any thing did prolong the gospel life in the east, it was the authority
of Rome. By her was the doctrine of the Savior vindicated, and
kept pure from the foul admixture, the contamination of heresy. By
her were Arianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Monotholism, and a
hundred other novelties, the spurious progeny of dangerous opinions
in the east, successively condemned.

And now, having disposed of the argument which appears in the
van of the gentleman's remarks, I will go on with a question of fact,
to which he has again referred, touching the word Catholic. He says
that it is not found in the New Testament. Admitting that it is not in
the body of the canon, which I did not contend for, yet it is prefixed
to some of the epistles, and as old, if not older, as a word belonging
to the household of faith, than they are. He said the word Y^xBoKmn
(catholtUe) was prefixed to the Epistle of James in the year 1549, by
Robert Stephens, or Robert Etienne, by which name that famous
French printer is better known — about 300 years ago. Yes, and I
will show you that here again his learning is at fault, that to the 300
years must be added a thousand more, and then that the origin of the
word is coeval with Christianity. Before quoting the testimony of St.
Gregory Nazianzen, a writer ofthe 4th century, I will observe, that seven
of the epistles found in the Catholic or Protestant Testaments, are call-
ed catholic, or canonical, as not having been addressed to any particu
lar church, or person, if we except the 2d and 3d of St. John, but to all
the churches. Five of these epistles, viz. that of St. James, the 2d of
St. Peter, the 2d and 3d of St. Joim, the epistle of St. Jude, as also the
epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews, and the Apocalypse, or book of
Revelation of .St. John, were doubted of, and not always and every
where received in the three first ages, till the canon and catalogue of
the books of scripture were determined by the authority ofthe Catho-
lic church, the supreme judge of all controversies in matters of faith
and religion, according to the appointment of our Savior, Christ, ex-
pressed in many places in the holy scriptures. These I have men-
tioned were certainly, for some time, doubted of; they arc still doubt-
ed of by sonic of llie late reformers. liUther, the great doctor ofthe
reformation, is not ashamed to say, that this epistio of St. James, is no
belter than straw, and univorlhi/ an apostle. Speaking of these epis-
tles, then, Gregory Nazianzen, at that early period, uses the word Cath-
olic, and designates them i>y that natn<; :

" T<nc /uiv w-7ot <^a.'TH, hi /i t^i/c /uo»«c

" Nllstir St IltT^K, THI'/l laatKHI fAlXI.

Greg. JVazianzen, Carmen de Canon. Script.
In English — "Some say there are seven Catholic epistles, others

56 DEBATE ON THE

that there are only three — one of James, one of Peter, and one of John."
So much for the fourth age. Does not my friend say his prayers?
Does not every Protestant unite wiin every Catholic in saying, "I
believe in the holy Catholic church," as we are taught in the apostles'
creed? Speaking of this most ancient formula of faith, composed, as
it is believed, by the apostles themselves, before they separated for
the great work of preaching to all nations, that it may be lor ever a
bond of union and an abridgment of sound apostolic belief, Wadding-
ton says, p. 46. "The creed which was first adopted, and thai perhaps
in the very earliest age, by the church of Rome, was that which is now
called the apostles' creed ; and it was the general opini ;n from the
fourth century downwards, that it was actual/i/ the production of those
blessed persons assembled for that purpose; our evidence is not sufficient
to establish that fact, and some writers very confidently reject it.
But there is reasonable ground for our assurance that the form of faith,
which we still repeat and inculcate, was in use and power in the very
early propagation of our religion."* Now will the gentleman tell
us that the word Catholic — was unknown to antiquity 1

You will perceive, my friends, that until the very minute Mr. Camp-
bell speaks, I know not what he is going to say. You will not won-
der that following him, my discourse should be desultory and rambling.
I am here under every disadvantage to which a speaker can be subject.
Obliged to leave the beaten highway and follow him through the
thickets into which, he finds it useful to plunge so frequently.

I have at this moment in my hand, a copy of the New Testament, a
beautiful edition, published in Glasgow, a Presbyterian city, and also
an edition of Robert Etienne. Behold (displaying them) the title
" Catholic," prefixed in both, to these epistles.

I have now established the fact that Catholic was the ancient name
of the church — that no other than the Roman Catholic was entitled to
that name — that the Roman Catholic church is the Catholic church
of all ages, that in all ages it has had a head. For we may call the
pope by any name we please, the name is nothing. It is the station,
and the incumbent thereof, that it is important to ascertain, and the
noonday is not clearer than that both existed from the very origin of the
christian religion in Rome.

He argues against the supremacy of Rome from the circumstance
that all the ecclesiastical words are Greek.

This is not at all surprising. There was not a particle of the Scrip-
tures originally written in Latin. Surely my friend must be hard pres-
sed for want of argument, when he grasps at such a floating, improba-
ble, airy one as that! Words are but the signs of ideas. But he af-
firms that all the epistles are written to Greek cities. Was then none
of these epistles written to Rome ! And was Rome a Greek city ?
Does not Paul surpass himself — does he not reason most deeply
in that epistle 1 Does he not style the Romans the " Called of Jesus
Christ ; the beloved of God ]" Does he not say, 1st ch. v. 3, " I give
thanks to my God, through Jesus Christ, for you all, because your
faith is spoken of in the whole world" ? Is it not in that epistle that

• A note to Waddin^on on this subject, contains tin: foUowiiif; ri'iiiark : " Ig-
natius, Justin, and Irenaeus, make no mention of it, but they occasionally repeat
some words, contained in it, which is held as a proof that they knew it by heart."

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 57

he confounds the Jows, by provin£r that the ceremonial works of the
law avail them nothing towards salvation, and the Gentiles by shew-
ing that their shameful excesses, notwithstandinnr the boasted lights
of philosophy, involved them equally with the rejected Jews in the
divine malediction 1 Does he not devote eleven chapters of this epis-
tle to establish solidly the fundamental doctrines of the christian faithi

Finally, was not the church of Rome at least as ancient as the church
of Corinth?

My friend spoke of transubstantiation, and purgatory. These will
come in their proper place in the debate.

The conclusion of all his arguments is, that the Roman Catholic
church is a sect. This, I may venture to say, he has failed to prove.
Indeed he has done any thing but prove it ; for he has in fact strengthen-
ed my grounds of defence, for the more he has questioned my authori-
ties and arguments, the more signally have I established them.

My friend is correct in saying that to prove the church not Catholic,
is to prove her neither holy nor apostolic. Had he acted on this hint,
and compressed his first three propositions into one, and condensation
is all important in discussion, he would have greatly abridged his own
labor, and saved this audience and myself much loss of time. I have
proved that the Roman Catholic church is now the only church
that is, as a church, (and not as a band of sailors or travellers without any
fixed habitation,) spread over the entire world ; that she only lias been
60 from the beginning, lo the exclusion of every sect : that she alone
now bears, that she alone has ever borne the name of Catholic; that
no other denomination, no sect now has or ever had a right to it — and
that, as she is Catholic, she is also holy, she is apostolic, she is
divine, and consequently the only true church of Christ. By the
same strictness of investigation and of reasoning, by the same
splendid eviJtnce (f furls, 1 will prove that she alone is united in
faith and goveriuiient as the true church should be ; for Christ
prayed for his disciples the night before he suffered, "that they
may be one, as thou Father in Heaven and I are one." Now in what
church shall we seek for this unity 1 We shall see that, later in the de-
bate, for notwithstanding the admission of my friend, we must plod our
weary rcjuiid, debating these propositions as lu; has penned them. But
the gentleman says, " the Roman Catholic church Hssuwfs every thing."
No, my brethren, it is not so. When she can so validly establish her
claim, she docs not, she has no occasion to asunme any thing. She
proves all things, and holds fast to them because they are good. In
the first |)lace we prove from Kcri|)liire tiial ("hrist did establish an
earthly head to his church, and tliat that head was the apostle Peter.
If not, why did he say to Peter, " Thou art Peter, (a rock) and upon
this ruck will I Iniild my chttrrh, and the gates of hell shall not prevail
against ii"] Again, Ik; did give him a preeminence over the other
apostles. If not, why did ho say to him, I,uke, xxii. .TJ, "Simon,
Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you (in the plural, that is, all
the apostles) that he may sift you as wheat, but I have ))rayed for thee
that thi/ faith fail not, and thou being ronvr'ricd, rtinfirm tin/ lirrthren" ?
He told Peter that he wouhl deny iiini — that lie wonld \';\\\ — hut he at
the same time chi'ered him by the divine assurance thai his fill should
not be for ever, that he would arise from it, and that after his transitory
humiliation, no longer presumptuously confiding in his own strength,

58 DEBATE O.N TIIK

but placinur all his trust in God, he should not only securely stand him-
self before both Jews and Gentiles, but likewise strengthen and sup-
port his brethren. For this Christ prayed for Peter, and the Father
who also loves the church, heard and he will ever hear that prayer.
The faith of Peter hath never failed. When did he ever say this to
the other apostles 1 Peter is named first, when the apostles are enu-
merated ; he speaks first in the meeting- of the apostles and brethren,
and gives instructions to proceed to the choosing an apostle in the place
of the Iscariot, He is the first to reproach the Jews with deicide, and at
his preaching eight thousand are converted. He is sent by an angel
from heaven, to the gentile Cornelius ; is released from prison by an
angel ; confirms the Samaritans with St. John : healeth j^iineas at Lyd-
da : raiseth Tabitha from death at Joppa ; founds the first see among
the gentiles at Anlioch. lie speaks first in the council at Jerusalem,
"men, brethren, «&;c." Acts, xv. "and all the multitude among whom
there had been previously, much disputing, held their peace," " Then
after three years" says St. Paul, Gal. i. 13. "I went to Jerusalem to
see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days." And ch. 2. v, 1, "Then
after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem, and I went up ac-
cording to revelation, and conferred with them the gospel which I preach
among the gentiles, lest perhaps I should run, or had run in vain."

IMy friend says that this assumption is followed by injurious effects,
religious and political, inconsequence of the power wielded by a single
individual. This directly impeaches the foreknowledge and sanctity
of Christ. He established the power, and from its exercise within the
just limits, which he has prescribed, I maintain that no consequences
injurious either to religious or civil society can ever ensue. History
attests, and I have quoted some striking instances from the records of
the Greek church, that the power of the popes was conservative. Their
influence has ever been most favorable to the best interests of society
as well as of religion. They were the friends of peace, the patrons
of learning, the umpires of angry princes and hostile nations on the
one hand, while on the other they preserved pure and uncontaminated,
the holy deposit of the truth and proscribed error. Confined to its pro-
per sphere the influence of the head of the church must needs be salu-
tary ; must, if God was wise, be beneficial and far above reproach.
This power has been exerted for the welfare of society under every form
of government, monarchical, aristocratical, mixed, and republican. It
is the friend of all. It is irrecpncileable with none, but of the tempo-
ral influence of the popes it will be time enough to speak in its proper
place. I will now proceed to show that the want of an ecclesiastical
superior, whom all are bound to obey, lets in a deluge of evils, and
these irremediable, on every religious body that wants a head. Reason,
alone should attest this truth, without further illustration. The sheep-
fold over which there has been placed no shepherd, will soon be the
prey of the wolf. The school in which no teacher presides, the soci-
ety which recognises no chief magistrate, wjll not fail to exhibit a
scene of confusion, and must finally be dissolved. Let us appeal to
experience. What has multiplied the (so called) christian sects to
such an excess that neither the evil nor the remedy can be any longer
endured in Protestant communions] It is the principle contended for
by my opponent. It is this, as bishop Smith justly observes, more
prolific than the knife that divides the polypus, that daily multiplies

EO:<U.X CATHOLIC BELIGIOX. 59

divisions and produces new sects in Christianity. Hear a late number
of the Baptist Banner, speaking of this controversy. It says : —

" But to be serious, ne cannot believe that any good will follow this debate.
But too much excitement is attempted to be gotten up against the Roman Ca-
tholics — an excitement bordering on intolerance. Could we feel assured, either
from his course in this instance or from a retrospect of his past life, that Mr.
Campbell sought this discussion solely to vindicate truth and expose error, and
not ostentatiously to exhibit his tact m debate and to reap a pecuniarj- harvest
by a new publication, we might feel less distrust of conseq\iences, and should
have some faint hope that probably good would ensue; but credulous, nay, stu-
pid must be the man, who in looking over the circumstances which have con-
curred in originating this debate, can suppose that any religious or commendable
motive prompted him to throw the gauntlet and provoke the controversy. In
looking over his past career, a love of truth and a desire to promote the peace
and prosperity of Zion, have not been the prominent traits which have marked
his character and rendered conspicuous his course. [Bishop P. was here called
to order; Mr. Campbell also here observed, that as he had read the worst part
of the article he might read the balance; and the point of order being examin-
ed, the board decided that he was in order.] \Ve do not speak for other
places, but in Kentucky he has caused more serious injury to the cause of reli-
gion, more disturbance, more wrangling, collision, and division in societv, in a
few years, than in our humble judgment, the Catholics can ever do. lint we
forbear. The debate will take place. The Campbellites will sip delicious wis-
dom from the lips of their leader. A new impuKe will be given to their now
drooping state. They will again wage his high claims to competency to reform
religion and introduce the Millennium. And Mr. Campbell will have the proud
satisfaction of rendering great good — to himself by the sr.lc of another book!
This will be about all that will result from this discussion."

1 knew not until yesterday that the Baptists were opposed to Mr.
Campbell ; but as necessarily as the stream flows from its source,
do these disastrous effects which the Baptist Banner deprecates, flow
from the system which acknowledores no head in religious matters,
but allows every individual, qualified or disqualified, to give his own
crude fancies for the revelation of lieaven.

The Zion's Advocate of the 28th ult. and the Palladium of the 7th
inst. give similar testimony against the radicalism of my friend. But
I spare him the reading. You can now judge of the tree by its fruits :
his are bitterness and confusion, those of the Catholics, admitting a
supremacy in the church, are order, unity and peace. His rule neces-
sarily creates enmities and endless altercations in the church; the Ca-
tholic rule cuts them iij) by the very roots, and not only arrests their
growth, but renders their very existence impossible.

Mr. Campbell said that the Roman Catholic church was an apos-
i^cy from the true CJiurr/i, and that this event, so important in the an-
nals of the world, took jilaee precisoly on the lOlh of July 10.51, when
she separated from the Greek church. It is a pity, as he intended to
be so partictilar, that he did not tell us whether it was old sh//c oriicii'.

But perceiving the terrible effect of this admission, upon his argu-
ment, be retraces his steps, and taking us all aback, he says that the
Greek church was not after all the true cburrh of Christ, anfl thus he
lias left us as much in the dark as over. Remember I told him how
much it bad puzzled the world and would puzzle him to settle that
point. I ask him again then, if the lioirian Catholic church apostatiz-
ed from the rhiirrh of f^hrist at the pfriod in qiicslion, and the Greek
church, from which she separated, was as corrupt as liersclf, where
was, at that timo, the true church'? Ciod's covenant with her, Iv/.cch.
xxxvii. C"2, was an everlasting covenant of peace, a covenant, like that
of day and night, to last for all generations, Jrc. xxxiii, 20, 21, al-

60 DEBATE ON THE

ways visible, Ts. ii. 2. 3. Michors iv. t. 3. spread far and near, and
tPichinor many nations, Ps. xi. 8. Dan. xi. 35. 44. Malnch. i. 11.
The pillar and the ijround of truth, unfailiiifr; the gates of hell were
nevi^r to prevail against her. If all tliese glorious prophecies were not
fulfilled in the Roman Catholic church, in what other church were they
fulfilled'? When will my friend answer ine"?

Mr. C. observes that the Roman ('atholic church or the see of Peter,
assumes to be the representative of Christ in all his power, ecclesiasti-
cal and political, and that as Christ was supreme head over all the
earth, temporal and spiritual, so was Peter, and so are his successors.

I have already shewn that this is no part or parcel of the Catholic
doctrine. The pope's power is spiritual, his kingdom like that of
Christ, is not of this world. He has not a solitary inch of ground
over which to exercise temporal authority in any territory on earth, be-
yond the narrow limits of the papal states ; and the authority with
which he is there invested rather originated in the people's preference
of the bishop's crosier to the kingly sceptre, than in any views he could
himself, have cherished of worldly aggrandizement. Hear Gibbon, in.
vol. p. 230., Phil. 18.30. "The want of laws could only be supplied
by the influence of religion, and their foreign and domestic counsels
were moderated by the authority of the bishop. His alms, his ser-
mons, his correspondence with the king and prelates of the west, his
recent services, their gratitude, an oath, accustomed the Romans to
consider him as the first magistrate. The christian humility of the
popes was not oiTended by the name of doininits or lord, and their face
and inscription is still apparent on the most ancient coins. Their tem-
poral dominion is now confirmed by the reverence of a thousand years ;
and their noblest title is the free choice of a people, wiiom they had
redeemed from slavery."

I had a great deal of other ground to go over on this point, but my
time is limited ; and I will now proceed to review one of the most
dreadful charges ever made against a pope of Rome, and to show that
it is totally without foundation.

If I understood Mr. C. aright, he asserted, that it was the pope Gre-
gory consecrated Phocas the centurion king, in the church of St. John
the Baptist in Constantinople, and that he did so, contrary to every law
of God, or man, for the base, the iniquitous purchase of the title of pope.

"(Mr. Campbell reasserted the charge.)

Now I aver that the charge is unfounded and false. I mean no dis-
respect to Mr. C. He would not intentionally deceive this assembly
or wilfully sustain by calumny an otherwise hopeless cause. But
leaving motives to their proper judge, I shall now prove to this audi-
ence that he has stated what is not true, and alleged odious charges
against the pope which he cannot substantiate. On his own reputa-
tion for accuracy and his knowledge of history let the penally for ever
rest, of having been this day detected before so many of his fellow
citizens, egregiously at fault in both. Hormisdas king of Persia, indig-
nant at the defeat of his general Varamus (see Natalis Alex. saec. sext.
Art. V. p. 226,) sends him a petticoat in derision. The war is renew-
ed ; Mauritius loses 12000 troops, taken prisoners by the Chagano ; he
refuses to release them by paying the humble ])ittance set as a price on
the head of each by the victor ; they are butchered in cold blood ; his
people, shocked at his avarice and cruelty revolt — Mauritius abdicates —

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 61

the people choose the centurion, Phocas, to reign over them in his
stead ; the patriarch nf Constantinople consecrates Phocas king, in the
church of St. John the Baptist, in C. P. The entire story is thus re-
lated by Gibbon.

"The troops of Maurice nii'oht listen to the voice of a victorious leader, they
disdained the admonitions of statesmen and sophists, and when they received an
edict which deducted from their pay the price of their arms and clothing-, they
execrated the avarice of a prince insensible of the dangers and fatigues from which
he had escaped: and every age must condemn the inhumanitj' or avarice ol a
prince, who by the tritling ransom of six thousand pieces of gold, might have pre-
vented the massacre of 12,000 prisoners in the hands of the Chagan. In the first
fervor of indignation, an order was signified to the army of the Danube, that
they should spare the magazines of the province, and establish their winter-quar-
ters in the hostile country of the Avars. The measure of their grievances was
full : they pronounced ^Iaurice unworthy to reign, expelled or slaughtered his
faithful adherents, and, under the command of Fhocas, a simple centurion, return-
ed by hasty marches to the neighborliood of Constantinople.

"The rigid and parsimonious virtues of Maurice had lon°: since alienated the
hearts of his subjects; and a vile plebeian, who represented his countenance and
apparel, was seated on an ass, and pursued by the imprecations of the multitude.*
The emperor suspected the popularity of Germanus with the soldiers and citi-
zens; he feared, he threatened, but he delayed to strike; the patrician fled to
the sanctuary of the church; tlie people rose in his defence, the walls were de-
serted by the guards, and the lawless city was abandoned to the flames and ra-
pine of nocturnal tumult. In a small bark the unfortunate Maurice, with his wife
and nine children, escaped to the Asiatic shore; but the violence of the wind
compelled him to land at the church of St. Antoninus, near Chalcedon, from
whence he despatched Theodosius, his eldest son, to implore the gratitude and
friendship of the Persian monarch. For himself, he refused to fly. His body
was tortured with sciatic pains, his mind w'as enfeebled by s\iperstition; he pa-
tiently awaited the event of the revolution, and addressed a fervent and public
prayer to the Almighty, that the punishment of his sins might be inflicted in this
world, rather than in a future liie. After the abdication of Maurice, the two
factions disputed the choice of an emperor; but the favorite of the blues, was re-
jected by the jealousy of their antagonists, and Germanus himself was hurried
along by the crowds, who rushed to the palace of Hebdomen, seven miles from
the cit_^, to adore the majesty of I'hocas, the centurion. A modest wish of re-
signing the purple to the rank and merit of Germanus was opposed by his resolu-
tion, more obstinate, and equally sincere : the senate ana clergy obeyed this
lunmions. and as soon iis Ihc patriarch was assured iifhis ortliodox bclirf, he con-
secrnled the succe».-ful umrjjer in the church of St. .lolin the Baptist." Gibbon;
sixth Amer. F.dit. of the Hist, of the Decline and Fall of the Koman I'.mpirc. Pacre
18». \ol. iii. A. D. IR.W.

Thus it appears that Gregory did not act the part assigned him by
my friend, and that this accusation turns out to be, like a thousand
others, taken up at second liand, without examination or suspicion of
falsehood or incorrectness, atrainst tlio [)opo, a mere fabrication with-
out a shadow of foundation in history! What will tiiis enliirlitcned
audience now say ? What apolojry is my friend pre])ared to make
for having unconsciously led them into error ] This case may illustrate
many others that are similar, and I beg it may not be forgotten.
Napoleon, I'cpin, &r. are parallels, the ponlifl' cfnild not resist the
will of an entire peo[)lo ; and it would only perpetuate lawless vio-
lence and disorder to contest a claim to the throne, to which no ono
was able to support his rival pretensions. The pope, seeing that the

• In their cliunors Rgninit Maurice, the people of Constantinople branded him
with the n.inie of Marrionitc or Marcioiiist; a hereby, (says Theopliyliirl, Lib.
viil. c. 9.) /"It" Ti»!< /««.;»{ »u>.»Sii«( iviiSi!, Ti ««i Kiri^ i>.«o-Tt(. Did they only
cost out a vague r«proac)i,or had the emperor really listened to some obscure
teacher of Ihojc ancit nt Gnostics 7

62 DEBATE ON THE

people, who had the right, selected themselves a new ruler, like a
true lover of peace and friend of established order, conijratulated Phocas
on his election, and used tiie language of scripture, be it observed, in
liis letter, because anarchy was at an end, and an orthodox and gener-
ous prince substituted on the throne of C. P. for a tyrant, a miser, and
a suspected Marcionite heretic. Mauritius may have died penitent,
but he reigned without love for his subjects.

We were spoken to of the president of the U. S. He has the same
power and authority as Washington had while the constitution of the
country endures. And as long as the constitution of the church en-
dures, the successors of Peter have the authority of Peter. If there
was ever to come a time, when the true church was to fail, Jesus
Christ was bound by his wisdom and love to foretell it. If it was his
intention to forsake the church, and if the power and authorities of all
the regularly constituted orders were to fail, he never should have
given it the promise of perpetual e;idurance, and the precise period, and
all the different circumstances of its defection should have been more
clearly and emphatically revealed, than any other event in the scrip-
ture. It is needless to add that such defection is not foretold ; but on
the contrary it is repeatedly declared by the Son of God, that his
church should stand forever, that bis Holy Spirit should abide with it
all days, that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it. What is
the meaning of the words "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against
if?" In the east, laws were enacted, justice administered, and the
sages and people assembled for deliberation at the gates of the cities.
Hence the expression denotes, wisdom, subtlety, malice. Again,
when a city was invaded by a hostile army, the hottest fighting was
around its gates. In them and around them, were all the energies of
the conflicting hosts put forth — and on the issue of the battle was sus-
pended a nation's weal or woe. Thus by the gates of Hell are clearly
meant, all the craft and power of Hell, the malice of heresy and er-
ror, the force and violence of persecution. All these shall rage around
the church in vain, for Christ is in the citadel, and his Holy Spirit is the
sentinel that guards its outposts and defences from being overthrown
by error. But he says that the apostles had all power given to them
— grant it — but what was the nature of that power? what was its ex-
tent ? It was a power to teach all nations. The weapon of their war-
fare was not carnal but spiriti^al ; " for our wrestling,'* says St. Paul,
Ephes. VI. 12. "is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities
and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the
spirits of wickedness in the high places." " Behold," says Christ, " I
send you as lambs in the midst of wolves. Carry not with you scrip
nor stafT, &c. Be not solicitous for the morrow, what you shall eat, or
wherewithal you shall be clothed. Behold the lilies of the field, they
BOW not, neither do they spin — and yet your Heavenly Father clotheth
them — careth for them — how much more ye, &,c." By patience they
were to run towards the fight proposed to them, and by patience they tri-
umphed over their persecutors. The pope, should occasion require,
viiW show himself the faithful imitator of these heroic models. Were
he stript to-morrow of all external, temporal power whatever, and a
poor wanderer among the mountains of the moon in Abyssinia, he
would have no less power, and would be, for aught I know, no less
respected, than he is at present. His chief authority is, thank God,

koma:* catholic religion. 63

such as this world can neither give nor take away. It was given for
the salvation of the people of God, and as lonjr as there is a soul to be
saved, a sheep to be brouorht back to the fold, or a spiritual conquest
achieved for the glory of Christ, and the praise of his grace, so long
shall that power survive; when all else decays, itself, amidst vicissi-
tudes unchanged, shall flourish in immortal youth.

For our sakes, in this distant province of creation, and at this late age,
as well as for those who saw the Word made flesh conversing among
men, was this commission given and this authority conferred. Our
souls were no less dear to Christ than were those of the first be-
lievers of glad tidings — and Cincinnati was the rival of Jerusalem in
the Savior's love ! With him there was no exception of persons —
neither past nor future. He provided for every casualty which he
foreknew should happen in the lapse of ages — he anticipated every
favorable or adverse circumstance that should afiect the condition of
his church, and with divine wisdom he adapted its constitutions to the
peculiar exigencies of every age and nation and individual believer,
until W3 reach "the consummation of the world." He sent his apos-
tles with power to ordain faithful men, who should in their turn be fit
to teach others. This is the charge that St. Paul repeated to Titus,
and thus has the succession of apostolic teachers been continued from
nation to nation, and from age to age, the church gaining in one region
of the earth what she had lost in another, renewing her youth like the
eagles, increasing her members, and daily transmitting to the bright
realms of heavenly glory innumerable multitudes of her children of
every clime and tongue, and peculiarity of social government or manners.

The apostles exercised various functions — I admit it. But they
substituted the deacons to wait on tables, and distribute the alms, so
do their successors ; Christ gave them powers adequate to every
emergency.

It has been wrongly asserted, that Moses had no successor. Joshua
was, in one important branch, his successor, for it devolved on him to
lead the people into tlie land of promise, and without this consummation,
the ministry of Moses would have been in vain ; and there are Joshuas
now whoso oflice it is to lead the people to their spiritual Canaan —
and as Cod obeyed the voice of Joshua, in commanding the sun to
stand still, so he now obeys the voice of his priests making suppli-
cation for his people. Here is an obvious analogy between the old
and the nev.- covenants. My friend argues that, liecause Moses had
no successor, Peter could have none, and the apostles none; l)ut it is
clear that Moses had a successor. All that Moses arcompiislicd wmild
have been incomplete without a succession of ministry to carry on tlio
work of Cnd in favor of his people, Israel. This, Kusebius beauti-
fully establishes, p. 40. So by the same analogy, it is necessary that
the succession of an apostolic priosihood hIioiiM be continued forllic car-
rying on of the christian dispf-nsation, and be transmitted ddWii frnni or n.
eration of spiritual guides to generation, until they shall have coiKhiitcd
all the people of Cod to the true land of promise, where I trust we shall
all meet, and cease to dispute, as we now do, like little children, at
the imminent risk of neglecting the weigliiier points of ibe law. For
myself, I am heartily siek o\' such interiniiialde rontrntion. Hero
would I stop and Kufi"er the matter to end without anoliier word, if iho
■ad necessity was not imposed upon mo of defending the impugned

64 DEBATE ON THE

tenets of my church, and giving with my voice the testimony which,
with the divine assistance, 1 should not hesitate to seal with my blood,
to the truths of the Roman Catholic faith. From the discharge of this
duty, no true believer, still more no minister of God, should shrink ;
and it is worthy of notice that, with all the love and humility of St.
Paul, he should have warned his disciple Timothy, and still more the
body of the faithful, against associating with "heretics." I never use
this word, as it is now so harshly understood, to designate those who
differ from me in religion ; but I know not how any human being is to
determine without the aid of a competent tribunal, who are heretics,
and who are not; for we cannot look into the heart.

I am told that an English divine was accustomed humorously to de-
fine these terms in this way. "Orthodoxy is my doxy and heterodoxy
is yours." But seriously, what being on earth can look into the secrets
of the heart? Who was to determine when heresy occurred 1 That
it existed in the early days of the church none can doubt. The apostles
denounced it. They delivered its authors to Satan (of whom St. Paul
says, are Hymeneus and Alexander whom I have delivered to Satan, that
they may learn not to blaspheme. 1st Tim. 1. 20.) The apostles did
not suffer their disciples to make this discrimination for themselves, in
defiance of the express word of God. They did not allow every man
to assert the right of private judgment on scripture, which they taught
was of no "private interpretation." 2 Peter, 1. 20. The very form
" understanding thisfirsV exceedingly strengthens the text. Divisions
will ever exist. They are, unfortunately, as nahii-al to depraved man,
as vice; and but little, if at all less fatal. '■'■There were also false
prophets among the people,'''' says St. Peter, 2d Ep. xi, 1, even as
there shall he among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of
perdition, and again v. 10 and 12, " They fear not to bring in sects,
blaspheming those things that they know not, promising their disciples
liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption." These
are fountains without water, clouds tossed with whirlwinds, or as St.
Jude says, V. 13, "raging waves of the sea, foaming out of their
own confusion, wandering stars to whom the storm of darkness is re-
served for ever." Who would trust his safety in a perilous voyage
to an unskilful pilot ? W^ho would risk the horrors of the deep without
chart or compass 1 Has God abandoned his children so far as to leave
them a prey to every innovator, every wolf in sheep's clothing? Is
there no ark of safety for man, while the waters of error overspread
the earth ? Yes, my friends, there is. It is the church. That ark
alone can save the world. "Whosoever," says St. .John, 2d Ep. 9,
10, "revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not
God. If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive
him not into the house, nor say to him, ' God speed you.' For he that
sayeth 'God speed you,' communicatelh with his wicked works."
This admonition, we understand to be directed against false religions
and false teachers. It does not forbid charity, which we owe to all
men, and particularly the erring; for whom, we are taught it to he our
duty to pray, that they may happily come to the knowledge of
truth.

I confess that, for my part, I cannot practise this doctrine literally,
nor refuse to salute one who differs from me in faith. I retain my
own convictions and eschew his errors. The apostles did differently,

R05IAN CATHOLIC RELtGION". 65

and who will presume to say, they were not more enlightened than we T
When St. John met Cerinthus (who denied the divinity of Christ) in
the baths of Ephesus, he ran out saying that he was afraid the baths
would fall upon him. And when his disciple St. Polycarp met Mar-
cion, in the streets of Rome, he refused to salute him. " Do you not
know me V said Marcion. " 1 do know you," replied Polycarp, " to be
the oldest son of the Devil." This shows the dread of religious inno-
vators entertained by the apostles of Christ and by their disciples, the
<langerous result of heresy.— [Time expired.]

Half -past 1 1 o'clock, J.. M.
Mr. Campbell rises —

I am sorry that I cannot sympathize with the gentleman in his em-
barrassment, occasioned, as he alleges, in being obliged to respond
promptly to objections to his doctrmes, which, he says, he cannot anti-
cipate. So far as he is placed in the predicament of a respondent to
my allegations, he has no one to blame but himself. When arrang-
ing the preliminaries as to the mode in which this discussion was to
be conducted, the gentleman perseveringly insisted that I should lead
the way, commencing every session ; and that, whether the proposition
were affirmative or negative, he must always respond. It was a sine
qua nan with him, that he should always have the last word. I
would, as an apology for giving him such an advantage, inform my au-
dience, that on no other condttiotiwould he consent to meet me. If, how-
ever, he sincerely dislikes the arrangement, I am willing to alter it,
and change places with him to-morrow. The affirmative, should, in
all right, and by universal usage, open, and the respondent follow, in
debate.

I regard this discussion, my friends, as a very serious and important
affair, involving in it the very best interests of the whole community.
I do not appear here to speak for myself alone in behalf of Protestant-
ism, or to you alone. I speak for my contemporaries, and for the great
cause of truth; and I am glad for their sake that this debate is imme-
xliately to go to record. I must, tliercfore, give as connected a form
as circumstances will permit to my argument. For this reason, I
passed over some things in the speech of yesterday that I might finish
my first argument this morning. I unfortunately, however, forgot to
notice them before I commenced my second proposition.

I will now recapitulate. —

The question was asked me, yesterday evening, "Where was the
true church before the time of th(^ filreok schism?" I observed, this
morning, in answer, that my having shown the Greek church to be the
Senior, or the original of the Roman, did not necessarily involve the
idea thai the (ircrk rhtirch was at the time, of separation the true Catholic
church. To this answer the gentleman has not replied ; but yet reiter-
ates the (|\iestion. His assunijilion of a church of nations with a poli-
tical head, having always existed, so confounds him that he cannot see
a church without a pope, or a national establishment. I might ask,
in reply, where was the church before the days of f/onstantine 1

We can, however, show that from the earliest times there has ex-
isted a people whom no man can rfmembcr, that have earnestly and
consistently contended for the true faith onn delivered to the saints.
If he requires me to put my finger on the page of history on which is
F 2 9

60 DEBATK ON TIlK

described the commencement of the degrenerary of the Roman diocer?o
from the true faith, I will turn back to about the year of our Lord 250.
Then the controversy between Cornelius and Novatian, about the
bishopric of Rome, embraced the points at issue, which separated the
true church from that which was then grievously contaminated with
error and immorality. It was, indeed, a controversy about the purity
of communion and discipline, rather than about articles of doctrine.
And it is worthy of remark, that such was the principal issue made at
that time, altiiough the doctrine of Christianity will not long continue
pure in a degenerate communil)'.

I have here, before me, Euscbius, the oldest of ecclesiastical histo-
rians, who informs us that Novatus and his party were called
Cathari or Puritans. And, although he appears greatly incensed a-
gainst Novatus and his party, he can record no evil against them ex-
cept their " inichariiabkuess,'''' in refusing to commune with those of
immoral and doubtful character.

The gentleman has given you his definition of orthodoxy and hete-
rodoxy : my definition is — the strong party is the orthodox, and the
weak party is the heterodox.

I hold in my hand one of the latest and best historians — Wadding-
ton. My learned opponent has already introduced him to your ac-
quaintance. He is a Fellow of Trinity college, Cambridge, and
Prebendary of Ferring, in the cathedral church of Chichester. The
account he gives of these reformers is sustained by Jones and other
ecclesiastical historians. I prefer Waddington for his brevity and
perspicuity. He says :

" We may conclude with sonic notice of the sect of the Novatians who were
stigmatized at the time both as schismatics and heretics; but who may perhaps
be more properly considered as the earliest body of ecclesiastical reformers.
They arose at Rome about the year 250, A. D. and subsisted until the fifth cen-
tury througliout every part of Cnristendoni. Novatian, a presbyter of Rome was
a man of great talents and learning, and of character so austere, that he was un-
willing, under any circumstances of contrition, to re-admit those who had been
once separated from the communion of the church. And this severity he would
have extended not only to those who had fallen by deliberate transgression, but
even to such as had made a_ forced compromise of their faith under the terrors of
persecution. He considered the christian church as a society, where virtue and
innocence reigned universally, and refused any longer to acknowledge as mem-
bers of it, those who had once degenerated into unrighteousness. This endea-
vor to revive the spotless moral purity of the primitive faith was found inconsis-
tent with the corruptions even of that early age; it was regarded with suspicion
by the leading prelates, as a vain and visionary scheme; and those rigid princi-
ples which had characterized and sanctified the church in the first century, were
abandoned to the profession of schismatic sectaries in the third."

This sounds a little like Protestantism. Our author proceeds :
"From a review of what has been written on this subject, some truths may be
derived of considerable historical importance; the following are among them : —
1. In the midst of perpetual dissent and occasional controversy, a steady and dis-
tinguishable line, both in doctrine and practice, was maintained by the early
church, and its efforts against those, whom it called heretics, were zealous and
persevering, and for the most part consistent. Its contests were fought with the
'sword of the spirit,' with the arms of reason and eloquence; and as they were
always unattended by personal oppression, so were they most effectually success-
ful — successful, not in establishing a nominal unity, nor silencing the expression
of private opinion, but in maintaining the purity of the faith, in preserving the
attachment of the great majority of the believers, and in consigning, either to im-
mediate disrepute, or early neglect, all the unscriptural doctrine* which wero
successively arrayed against it."

ROMATT CATHOUC RELIGION. 67

Other truths are here stated, as consequent from the premises. I '
will however for the satisfaction of my Episcopalian friends read what
follows, in this connection on church government.

"There was vet no dissent on the subject of church government. It was uni-
versallv and undisnutably Episcopal ; even the reformer Noyatian, after his ex-
pulsioii from the church, assumed the direction of his own rigid sect under the ti-
tle of hishop; and if anv dissatisfaction had existed as to the established method
of directing the church, it would certainly have displayed itself on the occasion
of a schism, which entirely respected matters of practice and discipline." Hist,
of the ckh. p. 79.

These Puritans or reformers spread all over the world, and continu-
ed to oppose the pretensions of those who, from being the major par-
ty, claimed to be the Catholic or only church. They continued under
the name of Novatians for more than two centuries ; but finally were
merged in the Donalists, who, indeed, are the same people under ano-
ther°name. These Donatists were a very large and prosperous commu-
nity. We read of 279 Donatist bishops in one African council. Of
these Donatists the same historian deposes:

" The Donatists have never been charged with the sllghtf st show of truth
with any error of doctrine, or any defect in church government or discipline, or
any depravity of moral practice ; th»y agreed in every respect with their adver-
saries, except one — they did not acknowledge as legitimate the ministry of the
African church, but considered their own body to be the true, uncorrupted, uni-
versal church."

Mark it. The Donatists considered iheir otcn body io he the true,
urtcorrupted, universal church! "It is quite clear," our author pro-
ceeds :

" It is quite clear, that they pushed their scliism to very great extremities, even
to that of rejecting the communion of all, who were in communion with the
church which they called false ; but this was the extent of their spiritual oli.nce,
even from the assertions of their enemies." li'ad. Hist. p. lo4.

The Donatists, in some two centuries, were amalgamated with the
Paulicians. They, too, were called Puritans. Jones, who has been at
the greatest pains to give their history, gives the following account of
them :

" About the year 660, a new sect arose in the east, under the name of PAUU-
CIAN8, which is justly entitled to our attention.

" In Mananalis, an obscure town in the vicinity of Somosatn, a person of the
nanic of Conntanline cnttrtained at his house a deacon, who having b<( ii n pris-
oner among the Mahometans, wag returning from Syria, whither he had been
carried away captive. From this passing stranger Constantine received the pre-
ciout gift of the IVcw Testament in its original language, which even at this ear-
ly period, was so concealed from the vulgar, that I'eter Siculus, to whom we owe
most of our information on the history of the I'aulicians, tells us the first scniplei
of a Catholic, when he was advised to read the bible was, "it is not lawful fur us
profane personi to read those sacred writings, but for the priests only." liuhcd,
the gross ignorance which pervaded Europe at that time, rendered the generMity
of the people inra[iable of reading that or any other book ; but even those of the
laity who could read, were dissuafled by their religious guides from middling with
the Uiblr. Constantine however, made the best use ofthe deacon's present — ho
itudied the New Testament with unwearied assiduity — and more particularly tho
writingtof the npt^tle I'aul from which he at length endeavored to tleduri' n system
of doctrine and worship. ' Me investigated the creed of primitive chriHtinnity,'
Myii (fibbon, * and whatever might be the success, a I'rotr slant reader will apjilaud
the ii»irit of the mfpiiry.' The knowledge to which Constanline himsril was, un-
der the divine blrtumg enabled to attain, heglndly communicated to others around
him, and a chriitian rhurrh wa.s collertc<l. In a little time, several individual*
arose among them (jualified for the work of the ministry ; and sevend other church-
et were collected throughout Aniienia and Cappacfocia. It appears from the
whole of their hiatory, to have been a leading object with Conitantine and hit

68 DEBATE ON THE

brethren to restore os far as possible the profession of Christianity to all its prim-
itive simplicity." Jones' Ilisl. Christian clili. }>. 239.

Again :

"'I'he Paiijician teachers," says Gibbon, "were distinguished only by their
scriptural names, by llie modest title of their fi'How pilgrims ; by the austerity
of their lives, their zinl and knowledge, and the credit of some extraordinary
gift of the Holy Spirit, liulthey were incapable of desiring, or at least, of ob-
luining the wealth and honors of the Catholic prelacy. Sucri anti-christian pride
thev strongly censured." — Id. ib. p. 240.

I mifrht read almost to the same effect from Waddington and Da
Pin. True tiiey arc called /icralics by tliose who call themselves Ca-
tholic anil us heretics; but what does this prove?

Until the appearance of the Waldenses and Alhigenses, these Pro-
testants continued to oppose the church of nations in the east, and in
the west, until at one time they claimed the title of Catholic. We
read of hundreds of bishops attending the different councils in which
they met to oppose the violent assaults of their enemies.

It is sometimes difficult to say which were the more numerous party,
those in communion with the Cathari, or Puritans, sometimes called
Novatians, sometimes Donatists, sometimes Paulicians, sometimes
Waldenses; but always, in fact, Protestants.

The spirit of true religfion seems to have fled from Rome from the
first appearance of the Novatians. The first schism at Rome acknow-
ledged and recorded by the Roman Catholic historians, is that which
occurred at the election of Cornelius over Novatus. Hence Novatus
is called the first anti-pope. Du Pin and Barronius amply testify of
the violence l)y which St. Peter's chnir was often filled with a vicar
after this schism. In the election of Damasus many were killed in the
churches of Rome. One hundred and thirty four persons, beaten
to death by clubs, were carried out of a single house at this election.
Had the Iloly Spirit any thing to do in thus filling the chair of St. Pe-
ter with a vicar of Christ! Is the church which permits such things
and W'hich has been sustained by such means, the true church of God?'
Is the person thus elected; the supreme head of Christ's church —
the proper vicar of Christ? ! May we not then say that the spirit of
God on that day, had departed from Rome? And may we not add,
from the documents before us, that if there be any truth in history^
we have found a succession of witnesses for the ancient faith against
Rome, from the days of the first schism till the present hour ?

There is but another point in the speech of my opponent, to which I
■will now respond. I called on him to explain the difference between
the claim of the title of pope, or universal father, (as St. Gregory op-
posed it,) and the same claim as now maintained by the head of the
church. The name pope, indeed, has in modern times, much changed
its meaning; for once it was applied to all bishops, and is now ap-
plied to every priest in the Greek church. 13ut when has the title
"universal father," been changed? lie alluded, in reply, to the
schism between the Greek church and the Roman church. The Greek
church, it seems, would not allow that the ordinances of religion with-
out their sanction, were validly administered. Is not that the very
plea of Rome at this hour? Docs she not say, that the bishops and
clergy of the English church are all laymen, because that church se-
parated from the Roman church ; and that all the authority she had
from her has been since revoked by the authority that gave it ? How

SOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION, 69

often are we told that the pope has the power of resuming all authority-
given him — that he can create, and afterwards destroy 1 that whatever
ecclesiastical power he gives, he can take away ; and that therefore
all heretics excommunicated and anathematized have no power left to
perform the ordinances of religion'? The ground upon which the gen-
tleman stands as to his defence of the authority of the pope, is precise-
ly the ground of Gregory's opposition to the title, as claimed by Boni-
face iii. if I can understand his attempt to explain it.

But I must advert, before I sit down, to a single point on which I
touched in my speech of this morning, viz. that of the councils. The
gentleman asks, did not Sylvester the pope preside in the first general
council by his legate 1 I affirm that he cannot show documents to
prove that fact. — ^Nay, let him show, if he can, that the first seven
councils were called by the bishops of Rome, or that his legates were
there to preside.

What would the gentleman prove by the fact, if it be a fact, that a
Roman bishop presided over one of these councils 1 That, therefore,
they were Roman councils 1 How would such logic pass with us with
regard to the house of representatives ] His argument runs thus : Mr.
Henry Clay was once speaker of that house, Mr. Clay is from Ken-
tucky, therefore, the house of representatives were all Kentuckians f
This would be exactly the pith of the logic we have heard.

My opponent admits the history of the first seven councils which I
have given to be correct: but explains it by asserting that all the busi-
ness was eastern. But fkcre were western heresies, as well as eastern,
and western business as well as eastern transacted in these councils.
I therefore object to his exposition of that matter. It would have been
impolitic on his exposition to call together eastern men to decide
upon eastern heresies. They ought to have sent western men, who
would have been more impartial judges. But he has not yet adduced
one document, showing that these councils were called for such purpo-
ses, or that the cast only was concerned in these questions.

On the jjrefix " Catholic" to the epistles, the gentleman did not
hear me, or did not apprehend my moaning. The argument is not a-
bout its anlifjuitij hnl hs authority! Ho has not proved, and cannot
prove tiiat it was so prefixed in the first ages, nor that it was ever so
applied by any inspired writer. Having brought no documents to
prove this, his reasoning is wholly irrelevant.

But you have been treated, my friends, to a feast from the " Baptist
Banner,''^ one of the party cpbemerals opposed to reformation. Un-
fortunately for the cause of religion, every age has produced a crop of
these special phadiTS for party tcnols. 5lany such a banner was un-
furled against Martin Lutlicr, .folin Calvin, Joim Wesley and all re-
formers : for they were all iierelics and controversialists. Indeed there
never was a good man on earlli who was not a controversialist. From
the days of Abel and Noah till the present hour, the friends of truth
have been hcrrtiral and controversial. But what has the B.ijjlist ban-
ner to do with ihc present points at issue ? Is the gentleman so hard
f reused as to form such alliances, to deliver himself or cause from ruin ?
trust he will either keep, or be kept to the rjuestion in drhale, and
leave Protestants to settle their own controversies. — [Time ex-
pired.]

70 DEBATE ON THE

Twelve o'clock, M.
Bishop Torcell rises—

I thought we should be placed under considerable obligations to my
friend, for putting his finger upon the historic page that records the
day and date of the apostacy of the Roman Catholic church from the
true and holy Apostolic church, with so much precision. But now we
are adjourned back nearly 1000 years, and yet nothing more definite
than a " some time about tlie year 250 !" Some time about ! He
does not tell us whether it was in one year, or another, that the church
began to be corrupt. It was some time about, and so on. About this
time, it seems, the Novatians separated from the church — well, Paul
foresaw that such events would occur in the church's history — he
foresaw that " ravenous wolves would enter the fold ;" that dissensions
would exist, at all successive periods, to the end of time— that every
day new heretics would start up, who would deny the truth, introduce
false doctrine, and trouble the people of God. The Novatians were
one of these sects — and what did they teach 1 Why the most revolt-
ing and horrible doctrines ; among others, the doctrine that a convert
to Christianity, who, in times of peril and temptation, nay even when
compelled by physical force, should forsake his creed, could never be
restored, no matter how sincerely penitent. Who that feels his frailty
and knows that his heart in an evil hour might stray from duty, does
not revolt at such a doctrine, that for one offence would cut him off
forever ! God dealt not so with Adam, nor Christ with Peter, when
at the voice of a woman, and in an evil hour, even his strong heart
failed him. He admitted him to mercy, received him back to his
bosom, and made him the rock of his church.

But if all heretics are right, and this among the number — if the
church was wrong in separating herself from these men — if it is her
duty to say to the upholder of false doctrine " all hail," you are as
free from error, as incorrupt and immaculate, as we are, come partake
with us, we are of one communion; the rule should, according to the
gentleman's logic, work both ways, and Rome has as good a right as
anyother to be called the church of Christ. On the other hand, if the
Novatians were right, as he says they were, in excluding others, the
church was right in excluding them. The speech of heretics, St. Paul
tells us, 2d Tim. ii. 17, spreadeth like a cancer; he elsewhere says,
that evil communication corrupts good manners ; and the Pagans were
not insensible to the wisdom of the distich —

"Priiicipiis ot)sta ; sero medicina paratur
"Cum maid per lon^as iiivaluere moras."

My friend must have forgotten his argument of this morning, when
he said that the church of the living God should include none but the
pure and holy. If this be true, we must all give it up ; for who is holy ?
Which of us can lay his hand upon his heart and say I am without
sinl No, we are only holy in acknowledging our sinfulness and guilt
in the sight of God, with humility and prayer. " If we say we have
no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us! If we say
we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. If
we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
clear us from all iniquity." St. John, Ep. If such be the gentleman's re-
quisitions, there can be no church of Christ in this erring world. There
is none pure from defilement, says Job, and all are included as the

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 71

objects of divine displeasure, from which only the blood of Christ,
with faith, repentance and good works, can save us. If the gentleman
insists on applying a test which would require absolute perfection to
enable us to endure it, there is no such holiness, that I am aware of,
exhibited in this probationary state. My friend may feel a proud con-
sciousness that he is a happy instance of its existence, but for my part,
I cannot, I should not think it safe to lay the flattering unction to my
soul. I would advise no man to do so, while the great St. Paul com-
mands us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling; and tells
us, he chastised his own body, lest while he preached to others he
himself " should become a reprobate," 1st. Cor. ix. 27. It is our duty
to acknowledge that we are frail and sinful mortals even like the rest
of men. Establish a contrary rule, and pride digs one abyss after
another beneath our feet, and there will not be left one virtuous feeling,
one sound principle left upon which we can take our stand to make a
last appeal to heaven for mercy ! When Christ empowered the church
to throw her nets into the sea of human life, as the apostles did into
the lake, she gathered into it fishes, both good and bad ; when the nets
are hauled ashore, the good fish will be selected and the bad thrown
back into the sea. So will it be at the end of the world. The angels
of God will come forth and select the elect from the reprobate — they
will gather the wheat into the garner, but the tares they will burn
with unquenchable fire. The Catholic church with a consciousness of
man's true condition in this life, and a liberality which does her honor,
and which, all agree, ought to belong to the fold of Christ, permits all to
join in her religious festivals and exterior communion who profess the
same faith, and are willing to submit to her decisions as her children.

But mark the distinction between the body and the soul of the church,
all who profess the true faith, assist at the same religious exercises
and obey the same pastors, belong to the body of the church and are
therefore numbered among her children ; but to faith and exterior com-
munion of which alone man can take cognizance, must be added hope and
love and grace with God, that we may belong to the soul of the ciiurch.
Of the latter the church does not undertake to decide. This she leaves
to CJod who alone can see the heart. She, herself, judges not the in-
scrutable thinj/s of the s[)irit of a man, but contents herself with know-
ing and teaching that nothing can escape the piercing and all-seeing
eye of God, who will render to every man according to his works, on
that day when the hope of the hypocrite shall perish. Hence, as long
as one of her members disqualifies not himself for the comniniiion of
the faillifiil by flagrant impiety, notorious depravity, or scandalous
excess, she rejects iiim not; but like that charity of which St. Paul
speaks, let Cor. xiii. "is patient, is kind, thinketh no evil, rejoiceth
not in iniquity, but rrjoiceth with the truth, bclievelh all things, hopeth
all things, endurcth all things, with modesty admonihbing men, if per-
adventurc God may give them repentance."

The gentleman quoted from VVaddiiiglon the, history of the Nova-
tiang. He says, they continued, how long I know not, but till !
(forget not the word,) till they merged in the sect of Donatists. The
expressive word lill is enough. There is nosueh fatal and teriuinnling
word in Catholic history. The (Catholic church is universal, and not
sectarian. Jt is perjielual in duration, an<i is not mir^eil as one wave
of error is merged in or obliterated by another. The gentleman asserts.

72 DEBATE ON THE

that the Donatists did not differ from the Novatians. This is incor-
rect. The Donatists fell from schism into errors which the No-
vatians had never adopted. They employed the ^^ savage Circuni-
cellions,'''' as the protestant historian Waddinprton calls them, to
pillage churches, murder Catholics, and perpetrate other acts of
barbarity unheard of amonof the meek followers of Jesus Christ.
What, too, will my friend say to the uncontrollable propensity to sui-
cide, which they were accused of encouraging and indulging with
dreadful frequency? Not so the true church — she comes lik" Jesus
Christ to call sinners to repentance, and heal the contrite of heart-
she employs his own inviting, and attractive, accents of pity and
compassion: — "Come to me all you that labor and are heavy bur-
dened, and /will refresh you, not drive you to despair, to acts of self
destruction; and you shall find rest for your souls." Matthew xi. 28.
A hard heart will fare badly in the end, says the scripture, and conse-
quently every feeling of justice and humanity revolts at the idea that
the Novatians could have been animated by the meek spirit of Jesus
Christ, when they condemned to eternal exclusion from the church for
a single, and that, frequently, a compulsory fault, as when an individ-
ual was condemned by brute force to offer incense to the idols, or the
Donatists, who revolted against the authority of the African bishops,
and ravaged the countries where they prevailed with a lawless soldiery.
Is this the meek church of him who came to preach deliverance to
captives'? Must we palliate these and a hundred similar excesses, to
criminate a church which would, if her mild counsels were obeyed, have
averted these evils from mankind ? Is it candid, is it just, to blame her
without cause and to withhold praise where it is due? The Roman
Catholic church has never given the example of such cruelty. She
on the contrary admits all sinners to repentance ; she counts as belong-
to her communion, all the children baptized in Protestant communions
who die before they are capable of committing mortal sin, or who living
in invincible ignorance that they have been bred up in error, keep
the commandments of God, and love him, as far as their knowledge of
his divine nature will permit. All these belong to the soul of the
church; and are consequently among the most precious of her fold.
Even among the enlightened Indians if any there be that keep inviola-
bly the natural law and serve their Creator according to the best lights
which they possess, these she enrolls among her children, and teaches
us to consider them as objects of God's special mercy, whom he will
not, according to St. Thomas Aquinas, fail to illustrate with the light
of divine truth. For this purpose the resources of his wisdom, are
like that wisdom, infinite. Thus while the Catholic church watches
•with tne most scrupulous fidelity over the purity of faith, in her
has the beautiful saying of the psalmist been fulfilled, " Mercy and
truth have met one another, justice and peace have kissed." Psi
Ixxxiv. 11.

By what ingenuity can the gentleman flatter himself he will estab-
lish the claims of the discordant and evanescent sects of these early
ages to the title of Catholics. Sisyphus-like, these sects which he is
laboring so hard, so vainly, to roll up to the summit of that "moun-
tain placed upon the top of mountains," spoken of by Is. ii. 2,
and which is the aptest figure of the Catholic church, to which all na-
tions flow, will fall upon him and crush him. He can never prove

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 73

Aem Catholic in iime, in place, or in doctrine. The Novations did
not slip into the Donatists, nor the Donatists into the Paulicians ; there
was no common bond of union, no identity of doctrine, among these
heterogeneous sects. As it is the same sun which took its station in
the heavens at the creation that now shines over us, so it is the same
religion that was taught eighteen hundred years ago by Jesus Christ,
that irradiates us at this very day with the light of truth ; and not more
difficult would it be to tount all the vapors, mists and clouds, that
passed athwart the bright luminary of day since he first gladdened the
universe with his beams, than to enumerate the numberless sects that
have cast their shadows on the light of Catholic holiness, and purity,
and truth, since the origin of Christianity. They have passed, or are
fast passing away for ever, while she lasts on, and will last till the end
of time. '"l have seen the wicked," says the Psalmist, xxxvi. 35,
" highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon. And I
passed, and lo! he was not, and his place was not to be found." This
is a glorious indication of the stability of the Catholic church — of the
truth of the power that sustains her. And as she signalized her
triumph over all the false gods of Paganism, by establishing the
church of All Saints, and of the God who made them saints, on the
ruins of the greatest of idolatrous temples, so does she signalize her
triumph over all sects and heresies, falsely professing to be christian,
by the august pontiff who speaks to the eternal city and the Catholic
world. From the inspiration of scripture, and of splendid facts, I pass
to the inspiration of poetry, I care not whose, and close Ihe words of
tny argument in the words of Byron :

"But thou of temples old. or altars new,
Standest alone — with nothing like to thee —
Worthiest of God, the holy and the true!
Since Zion's desolation, when that He
Forsook his former city, what coultl be
or earthly structures in his honor pil'd
Of a sublinier aspect '? Majesty,
Power, glory, strength, ancf biimtv, all are aisl'd.
In this eternal ark of worship undetird."

« » «

My friend has dwelt eloquently upon riots in the church in particu-
lar seasons of excitement. But shall a society forfeit all claims to
regard, because, in seasons of high excitement, differences of opinion

Iroceed to violence? or a few bad people come to blows'? It has
appencd, and rnay happen among ail denominations, even the most
peaceful sects, and every body of men ; (instances were here specified.)
A riot may take place at an election of president, and blood be shed ;
but does this affect the title of chief magistrate of this union? Is he
to lose his offic-f; because blows were struck during the election? and
if the pope could not always be elected peaceably, by reason of the
disturbances created by men, was the succession to cease, and was
there never to be a pope again, or a bishop, or any other pastor in the
church ? was Christ not God bcf-ause Peter, the servant Malchus, shed
blood for him? See the terrible effects of my friend's bad reasoning.
The deist has availed himself of it, and denied the God of the Old
Testament, because exterminating wars, as we there read, were waged
«t his command. We must make allowances for the passions and
O 10

74 DEllATK ON rilH

weaknesses of liumaii niilure; but ihe aim of religion is to corfect< to
heal, if she cannot entirely remove them. W'he,n the pope was elected,
in tlw case alluded to, he restored order. As Cliri«t said to Pettr, so
said he to the mob excited by Novatian, " Put up atjain thy sword
into its place, for all that take the sword shall perish with live sword."
Matthew xxvi. 52.

The gentleman asked me to tell him in what objectionable sense the
bishop of Constantinople claimed the title of Universal Fiither. It
was in a sense, never used before; he had no title to it; he assumed
too much in claiminnr it. Again, it was he who pretended that no
sacrament could be administered but by his authority. The Catholic
church teaches that, however illicitli/ he may exercise it, no authority
on earth can take even from a degraded priest ihe power of consecrat-
ing. Schismalical bishops, when duly ordained themselves, could
ordain bishops, priests and inferior clergy. We ad'roit the baptism
of IMethodists and Baptists by aspersion, or immersion, as I have
already explained; and even the orders of the English Episcopal
church are contested, on the ground of the very serious doubt whethcT
the first of their bishops was, himself, ccvnsecra-tied by a bishop, or
if so, by a valid formulary.

My friend was not at all accurate m stating the irumber of bishops
present at some of the first councils. There were more present at
them, as I can easily shew, than he has stated. H-e draws a parallel
between the council of Nice and the house of representatives. I do
not understand the force of his analogy. If that council belonged ex-
clusively to the Greeks, why did they permit a Latin to preside 1 But
it was to shew the world that they admitted the authority of Rome
that Osius, the pope's legate, presided — and without his signature,
and the pope's approbation, their acts would have had no force as rules
of Catholic faith. What analogy is there between Henry Clay snd
Osius'? Did they stand in the same relation to their respective assem-
blies ■? Did they ever dream that they would be placed in juxta posi-
tion ? If the speaker of the house, or the president of the senate, were
to object to the passing of a law, would his veto avail anything?
would not the majority ruleT

My friend said, first, that Catholic was a new term ; and next, when
he found it impossible to prove that, insisted it was not used to designate
the church, by inspired writers. I have abundantly disproved both
of these assertions. The apostles were inspired writers, and it dates
from their time ; and they alone, according to the rule of St. Augustin,
had the right to institute it. Besides, what are all the glorious pro-
phesies of the universal diffusion of the church by Isaiah, &c. &c. but
the evidence that it should be what its name imports 1 In fact, it was
Catholic before all the New Testament was completed. And the
apostles, aware of the doubts that error would originate on the autho-
rity of the church, gave a sure and unerring guide to every sincere be-
liever, teaching him to say, next after the profession of his belief in God
himself — not, I believe in the bible — it is not once mentioned — not in
any sect — there were none heard of at that time — ^but " I believe in the
holy Catholic church." — [Time expired.]

RO>tAN CATHOLIC BELIOION. 75

Three o'clock, P. M.
Mr. Camtbeix rises —

I may have mistaken in ascribing to the bishop of Rome what waa
done by the bishop of Constantinople, in reference to the personal
consecration of the successor of Mauritius ; but this does not aflect
the justice of my remark, or invalidate my reasoning : and I think
my worthy friend apprehends this, inasmuch as the consecration was
approved and sustained by Gregory. I read those documents at the
same time, and may have confounded them, but we shall hear them
again and see how much is either gained or lost by the admission.

" As a subject and a christian, it was t!ie duty of Gregory to acquiesce in the
establislied government, but the joyl'iil applause with which he salutes the for-
tune of the assassin, has sullied with iiulerMe disgrace the cliaracler of the
saint. The successor of the apositlcs might have inculcated with decent firm-
ness the guilt of blood, and the necessity of repentance : he is content to cele-
brate the deliverance of tlie people and the fall of the oppressor; to rejoice that
the piety and benignity of Pnocas have been raised by providence to the impe-
rial throne; to pray that his hands may be strengthened against all his onemifs;
and to express a wish, perhaps a prophecy, that, after a long and triumphant
reign, he may be transferred from a temporal to an everlasting kingdom."* —
Gibbon Hist. Dec. and Fall Rom. Emp. vol. viii. ;). 211.

Now this, if I mistake not, amounts in substance to my affirmation.
Gregory approved the usur])ation, and sanctioned the induction into
office of a man who had wrested tlic throne from the legitimate master,
and who was both a munierer and a usurper.

I could wish that my oj)ponent would select some of the great points
of my argument in his replies, and form an issue with me. Were this
piece of history blotted out of existence, what loss to the main argu-
ment 1 These are merely incidental and minor matters — illustrations
rather than proofs, and leave the great facts as they were. I must,
however, briefly glance at some other little things before I resume my
argument.

The gentleman's next remark was, " that Joshua was the successor
of Moses." True it is, that every man is in one sense sncreseor to
some one who preceded liiin. Uut Moses was, for a time, captain,
prophet, priest, and king of Jeshurun. Joshua, however, merely com-
manded the people, and divided the land of Canaan among tliem. This
did not Moses: Moses accomplished all that he was appointed to do.
He needed no successor in the peculiar work assigned him. They
were both extraordinary offices. Moses was a law-giver, and Joshua
a savior. The law was given to the people by Moses: Joshua gave
them an inheritance. Neither of them, in the nature of things, could
have a successor in the same office, for its duties wcri; all di.sciiargcd.

I was pleased tolienrlhe genlh'innn admit all tiiat I said conccriiing
the Novatians. 'I'hey had one fault wiiich v,e bolli allow — lliey were
too severe jn one branch of discipline — they could never receive those
who had grievously fallen — no repentance would obtain re-admission
if tiie penitent had very flagrantly sinned. The occa.sion was this:

• Gre^or. 1. x'l. rpi«t. 38, indict, vi. Benignilatcm vestKn pictatis ad impu-
rialc fnntl^um pervenisnc gnudemus. I/rtcntur culi c-t exultet terra, et do
veitrin benignis acliliui univem.'e reipublicu? popiiluR nunc usque vein nicnter
afllictun hiliircurot, <fcc. This bane (lattery, the topic of I'rotestunt invective, ii
junlly ceniurrd by the philoiophcr Hayle, (Diclionnairc t'ritique, Gregoire 1.
Not. H. torn. ii. p. .''>07, !i9H.) Cardiual Barroniui juitiCci the pope at the ex-
oense of the I'ullen rniperor.

78 DEBATE ON THE

In the interim of the Pa^an persecutions, many new converts were
added to the churches. 5y and by, when the storm of persecution
arose, they withdrew and fell away : but when a calm ensued, they
sought to be restored to the church. Tlie Novatians opposed their
restoration ; the other party contended for it. The Puritans got vexed
with the frequent indulgences and backslidings of such professors;
and this occasioned that extreme on their part, which drew down upon
them many anathemas from the other party. They had other objec-
tions besides this against the opposing party; but this was sufficient
for a division.

I was sorry to hear the gentleman excusing the church for embrac-
ing in its bosom men of every sort of wickedness. He spoke with
great feeling and eloquence upon the subject of calling ourselves holy,
&c. We admit that there is no man free from all pollution, whose-
heart is always and only pure. But what has this to do with the
openly wicked and profane — rcprohates of the deepest dye 1 Ought
the church to open her doors as wide as the human race, and admit
every human being without discrimination'? Is there no medium?
He quoted the parable of the tares and wheat. It is true, the Savior
commanded to let the tares and wheat grow together till harvest : but
the gentleman assumed that it was spoken of the diurch. I admit the
doctrine, as applied to the world. " The Jield is the world,'''' not the
church, said the Savior. Does this excuse ns for tolerating reprobates
in the bosom of the church? "You are not of this world," says the
Savior to his disciples — " My kingdom is not of this world," " Come
out from among them, and separate yourselves, and I will receive you,
says the Almighty Father. What concord has Christ with Belial, or
he that believeth with an iniidelT"

As to the"continuation of the Novatians iill the Donatists, and the
Donatists iill the Paulicians," &c. my friend emphasizes the word /?'//,
as if those witnesses for Christ had died away when some new sect
arose. The fact is, that when some great leader arose, his name was
imposed upon all that associated with him; and different leaders, in
various parts of the world, moved great masses of professors, who
were essentially the same people; and when they became acquainted
with each other, they coalesced under one great profession, variously
nicknamed by the opposite party. So are the Lutherans, Calvinists,
Wesleyans, Cameronians, &c. of ojir own time.

Sorry was I to hear my liberal antagonist compare the Protestant
sects to the psalmist's description of a prosperous wicked man — ^'I
saw," says he, "the wicked great in power, spread himself like a
green bay tree: he passed away; yea, he was not. . I sought him, and
he could not be found." I do not know how his Episcopalian friends
■will thank him for this compliment. I hav^ no doubt in this he was
sincere, for the Romanists often bewailed the long life of Elizabeth,
because, under her reign, a new race of Protestants was born and edu-
cated, and alienated from the Roman hierarchy, who were proof against
all the machinations of Rome. They hoped that the Protestant Epis-
copalians would, like the green bay tree of David, (emblem of the
prosperous wicked,) have withered away, and been reabsorbed by the
mother church ; but for once the application failed, and the wicked
Protestants have for three centuries grown and increased, in de-
spite of all the policy and effort of Rome, and are now in expectation

E0:iL4.X CATHOLIC KELIGION. 77

of seeing the same 37th psalm verified in the fates of Roman Catho-
licism.

Every sect and individual, as I said before, is passive in re-
ceiving a name. Sectarian names are generally given in the way of
reproach ; thus the disciples were first called christians at Antioch,
most probably in derision ; yet it was a very proper name. Call us
what you please, however, it does not change nature or race. The
disciples of Christ are the same race, call them Christians, Nazarenes,
Galileans, Novatians, Donatists, Paulicians, Waldenses, Albigenses,
Protestants, or what you please. A variety of designation affects not
the fact which we allege ; we can find an unbroken series of Protes-
tants — a regular succession of those who protested against the corrup-
tions of the Roman church, and endeavored to hold fast the faith once
delivered to the saints, from the first schism in the year 250, A. D. to
the present day ; and you may apply to them what description or de-
signation you please.

The gentleman spoke of these sects as waves passing by while the
true church remained like a wall, immoveable and unchangeable.
History refuses him her suffrage in this assumption : for it deposes
that she has changed, in whole, or in part, her tenets and her disci-
pline, no less than eighteen times in all — that is, once, at least for
every general council. She is the mutable immutable church, con-
tending for uniformity in faith and variety of discipline.

My opponent has quoted the apostles' creed. Du Pin, and a learn-
ed host prove that the apostles never wrote it. The doctrine contained
in it, I admit is apostolic. And it is worthy of remark that like all
old creeds, it states /ac/s ,- whereas modern creeds are human exposi-
tions of doctrines. For my own part, I can adopt every article of that
creed, ex animo ,• except, perhaps, I would change one expression, and
say that ' I believe in a Catholic churcii.' I believe that there does
exist such a thing as a truly Catholic church of Christ. But as for
human creeds, I make no such platforms a bond of union among
christians. We, like the Romanists, differ about church discipline
among ourselves : but all the Protestant world believes this ' apostles'
creed,' as it is called ; and are as uniform in this faith as the " mother
church" herself.

I was sorry to hear the election of the pope, the pretended vicar of
Christ, as respects riots, and blows, and carnage, compared to that of
the president of the United States, and to have the excesses com-
plained of in Rome, excused on the (rround, that sometimes we have
mobs, and perliaps a flight on a presidential election. Is the jiresiden-
tial chair of sudi dignity and sanctity as that of tiie vicar of Christi !
And is a riot or murder no more incongruous in the one case than in
the other 1 We opine, that he wiio holds that exalted station should
come into it without blood. And yet in all these political elections,
since the Protestant rcforiaatioii, llioro is nothing to e(|nal half the up-
roar, and tumult, and murder, that happened in filling tiie ciiair of St.
Peter, at the conflict between Damasus and Ursinus, not to mention a
second, ('an it be compared to the election of the prcsidcnU so as to
transfer to the one the language which is pcrliucnt to the oilier 1 As,
for example, " Take heed to the flock over which the Holy Si-iiut has
placed you!"

The gentleman is glad that his church is to liberal as to authorize
o 2

78 DEBATE ON THE

every sort of baptism, even that performed by heretics, provided only
the proper name be pronounced ! This is certainly a modern excess
of liberality. If I am rightly informed, his predecessor, in this very
charge, was not so liberal as he — in one case, at least, which occurred
at Portsmouth in this state. There were two members of the Episco-
pal church," one of the parties the son of an Episcopalian minister, de-
sirous of entering into matrimony. Bishop Fenwick desired to know
of what party they were, and on learning that they were Episcopalians,
refused to marry them, unless previously baptized by himself. There
may be many other instances of liie same sort, certainly, in former
times there were many, and so far as they prove that the church is not
immutable, are hopeful indications of the possibility of reform. But
this is not the question before us. We are not discussing baptism, or
the eucharist, or any of the " seven sacraments," or any ordinance of
the church. Will the gentleman inform us whether his church regards
the administration of the eucharist, or any other of her seven sacra-
ments valid, unless at the hand of those whom she authorizes to min-
nister them. Let him not wave the question by a reference to a prac-
tice which he knows can be explained on other principles.

I shall not now stop to dispute about Sylvester and the council of
Nice : but shall resume my general argument where 1 left off.

All agree that if primacy or supremacy reside in the church at all,
it must reside in some person. If Jesus Christ intended to make Peter
the prince of apostles, the vicar of Christ; the title will prove it clear-
ly. If this headship, on the other hand, was not given to Peter; none
can derive it from him by succession. Was Peter invested with this
authority 1 If not, none can pretend to it as his successors. Tho
whole question rests on this. My learned opponent cannot show that
Peter ever had such an office. He affirms, indeed, that Peter was su-
perior to the rest of the apostles : but does he show in what respect ?
How many kinds of superiority might there have been in his case 1 I
will answer for him and say that there are, at least,/our. 1st. of age,
2nd. of talents, 3d. of character, and 4th. of office. These are clearly
marked in holy writ, and fixed in society. Admit then that Peter is
head of the list; can he decide which of these four has placed him
first. The bishop asserts that he was first in office. But how can he
take this for granted, when there are three other ways in which Peter
might be at the head 1 Is this the reasoning that logic or Catholicism
sanctions or requires 1

I would request the gentleman to tell us, how he knows which of
these four sorts of superiority to ascribe to Peter ! He assumes one,
and is bold in asserting the Catholic doctrine of a supreme head of the
church on this assumption. Peter may have been the oldest, or the
first called of all the apostles : or his character or talents may have
given him a decided superiority ; why then assume one, to the exclu-
sion of the others. 'J'he greatest empires have been built on the most
bold assumptions. But never was there a more baseless monarchy in
the annals of time than that of papal Rome. I wish my opponent
would for once assume, or take up some one of these grand points, on
which his church rests, and not waste his time in fighting about sha-
dows or peccadillos. Let him come at once to the great principles of
the debate. I challenge him to show cause, why he assumes for Peter
a supremacy of office, rather than of age, of talent, or of character ;

KOMAN CATHOLIC RKLIUION. 79

any one of which is much more feasible and probable than that which
he has begged. — [Time expired.]

Half past 3 o'clock, P. M.
BlStiop PtfRCELL ilses —

1 was far from charging Mr. C. with a Wilful dereliction of the truth,
when he stated, what he now confesses to be untrue, that Gregory
crowned Phocas. The imputed motive was very base, but he now
sees that it was not the pope's. I attribute this extraordinary mis-
take, on the part of my friend, to the fact of his having been too apt
to believe that every thing written against Catholics must be true, and
to his memory's not having been lately refreshed in his early readings.
But it is due to the public that he should apologize for having,
through want of care on a matter of so much importance, fallen into
so very serious a mistake in what was calculated so deeply to injure
the truth. He should first have inquired whether all he said was
true. I repeat, then, that Gregory did not crown Phocas at all, much
less for the express purpose of eliciting from the gratitude of the sover-
eign an acknowledgment of his " papal supremacy" for this recognition
was as old as Christianity. Order was restored in Constantinople. He
then sent him words of compliment on his accession. It is contrary to
the rules of sound argument to presume that Gregory approved of the
circumstances which led to the change of dynasty. Napoleon grasped
the Iron crown of Italy, from the altar and put it on his brow, for he
acknowledged no Donor thereof but his sword. So would Phocas,
very probably have done with the crown of C, whatever Gre-
gory might have thought of the act. Moreover, Phocas did not
hurl Mauritius from the throne. Mauritius abdicated, and the people,
not the bishop of C. P. made Phocas king, in the place of Mauritius,
amiser, and a tyrant ; and Gregory rejoiced, not at the disturbances but
at the restoration of order. My friend now treats these matters as
light, and incidental. It was he himself wiio made then principals,
by the manner in which he introduced them. Me was arguing a knotty
point, tlie manrifr in which Uom(> came to " assume" her high pre-
rogative over the cliurcli. The plain, scriptural truth, that she came
to it by divine appointment was before his eyes, but he would not see
it. Ih It to be wondered at tliat he saw in history what was not there !
I will say no more on the subject of Joshua. Kusebius confirms, p. 4G,
what I have said. The object of the ministry of the old or of the new
law, of the corning of ('hrist, of the shedding of his blood, and all the in-
stitutions of his religion, was not the setting up of a tabernacle in the wil-
derness, or the crossing of the .Jordan, or the surveying of a piece of
land and dividing it among a few tribes, but the salvation of man-
kind, without any exception, or distinction of age, or clime; and
this (freat work of regeneration and redeinjition is just as important
now, and will continue so while there arc iMMonxAi, souls to he en-
lightened and saved, as it was in the days of iIk; apostles. Their
office must remain, and their successors are charged with it. The
bishops and their assistant brethren watch over the safety of the fold,
and the soverri[rn pontiff sees that they ;ui(l tlicir flocks prrsevcre in
ufiity. He watches over all.

Mr. ('. persists in saying that the NovaliauK, Donatists, Paulicians
&c. &c. agreed in doctrine, and may be considered as the Catholic

80 DEBATE ON THE

church. I have already refuted this theory, but here is Protestant tea*
timony again to destroy it, and I hope we shall not waste any more
time on it, for it is too absurd. " No heretic," says Waddington,
p. 154, " was as likely as the Donatist to lay claim to the name Ca-
tholic ; yet even a Donatist, while he maintained that the true spirit
and purity were alone perpetuated in his own communion, would scarce-
ly have affirmed that that was bona fide the universal church, which
did not extend bcyotid the shores of Jlfrica, and ivhich had not the via-
jority even there^ Speaking of the sects in Dauphine and other errorists
condemned at Arras in 1025, the same author says, (p. 554) "It is
proper to mention what these opinions really were, which were con-
demned at Arras, lest it should be supposed that they were at variance
only with the Roman Catholic church, and strictly in accordance with
apostolic truth." " It was asserted that the sacrament of baptism
was useless and of no efficacy to salvation, (what does Mr. C. think
of this 1) that the sacrament of the Lord's supper was equally unne-
cessary. — It appears that the objections of the heretics on this point
went beyond the mere denial of the change of substance — that the
sacred orders of the ministry were not of divine institution — that
penance was altogether inefficacious — that marriage in general was
contrary to the evangelical and apostolical laws — that saint-worship is
to be confined to the apostles and martyrs, &c. &c. so mixed and various
is the substance of those opinions to which learned writers on this
subject appeal with so much satisfaction." Again, " they were all taint-
ed more or less deeply by the poison of Manichaesism : and since it is
our object to establish a connexion, with the primitive church, we shall
scarcely attain it through those whose fundamental principle was un-
equivocally rejected by that church, as irrational and impious." 555.
Mosheim says, 1st vol. p. 328, "Among the sects that troubled
the Latin church, this century, (the 12th) the principal place is due to
the Cathari, or Catharists, whom we have had already occasion to
mention. This numerous faction, leaving their first residence, which
was in Bulgaria, spread themselves throughout almost all the European
provinces, where they occasioned much tumult and disorder. Their
religion resembled the doctrine of the Manicheans and Gnostics, on
which account they commonly received the denomination of the former,
though they differed in many respects from the genuine primitive
Manicheans. They all indeed, agreed in the following points of doc-
trine, viz. that matter was the source of all evil ; that the creator of
this WDrld was a being distinct from the supreme deity ; that Christ
was neither clothed with a real body, nor could be properly said to
have been born, or to have seen death ; that human bodies were the
production of the evil principle, and were extinguished without the
prospect of a new life. They treated with the utmost contempt all
the books of the Old Testament, but expressed a high degree of ven-
eration for the New." Speaking of the Waldenses, p. 332, Mosheim
says, " They committed the government of the cliurch to bishops,
presbyters and deacons, but they deemed it absolutely necessary that
all these orders should resemble exactly the apostles of the divine
Savior, and be like them illiterate, &c. &c. The laity were divided
into two classes, one of which contained the perfect and the other the
imperfect christians." Of another sect, the Pasaginians, Mosheim
says, p. 333, "They circumcised their followers, and held that the law
of Moses, in every thing but sacrifice, was obligatory upon Chris-

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 81

tians.'''' What the same Protestant historian says of the brethren of
the free spirit is too horrid. It is the foulest of the many foul pages
he has stained with the history of sects, "They maintained that the
believer could not sin, let his conduct be ever so horrible and atro-
cious." The celebrated Ziska, not a Roman Catholic inquisitor, but
the austere general of the Hussites, another sect of Protestants, fall-
ing upon this miserable sect in 1421, "put some to the sword and
condemned the rest to the flames." Mosheim, 428. " A sect of fana-
tics called Caputiati, infested Moravia and Burgundy, the diocese of
Auxerre, and several other parts of France, in all which places they
excited much disturbance among the people. They declared publicly
that their purpose was, to level all distinctions, to abrogate magistra-
cy, to remove all subordination among mankind, and to restore that
primitive liberty, that natural equality, which were the inestimable
privileges of the first mortals." Mosheim, p. 333. Luther repeatedly
declared that he stood alone, that all antiquity was against him. Here
are startling facts and no less startling admissions by sound Protes-
tants. Will my friend insult this enlightened assembly by making up a
monster-church, a very chimera, of all these sects, and give modern
Protestants all the honors present and prospective of being the tail of
the beast? I would counsel him not to dream of doing so, and ihem
to look out for more reputable religious ancestors.

But the Roman Catholic church has changed at least in discipline.
Grant it. And what of that? Is it not the very nature of discipline that
it must be modified by times, places, peculiarities of nations and other
circumstances, in order to be adapted to the wants of man in all the
varieties of his being ] Truth is unsusceptible of change. Like God
it is always the same. But the form of the dress of the clergy, the color
of the wine to be used at mass, days of fasting and abstinence, and
of public meetings for prayer and certain unessential rites in the ad-
ministration of the sacramj'.nts, may be changed. The constitution of
the church should possess this clement of good government. She has
the power to make these changes, and she has made them as the wants
of her children seemed to require. But the doctrine is invariable.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but, of it, not an iota shall change.

As to Ihe deaths oecasionnd iti the election of a pope, I ask agam,
what has that to do with tlic constitutionality of the office 1 The popo
did not shiy those people- According to the gentleman's theory, the
president of this union would have to answer for the blood, if any,
flpilled at his election. I am astonished that such arguments should
be repeated. I can say wilii certainty of my venerable ])redecessor
that he would not have pursued tlu^ course, he did, if the story ho
true, if he had had reasou to believe the individuals had never been
baptized — ami if any two or mop' young jjcople will ecMue to me, who
have bet-n rightly baptized in I'rotcstant (;omnuniions, 1 warrant them,
if there bi; no other obstiicles, they shall be quickly bound together in
the indissoluble bondH of matrimony.

I am perfectly willing to revert to the point of the supremacy of St.
Peter and the continuance of his high authority in his successors, for it
is a cardinal dortriiic It solves a tlioiisjuid lesser points of (lilhculty,
and I am happy to argue it ;iir;iin from the New 'Ceslanienl, from
church history, from reason. I have already quoted scri|)ture for tho
dogma of the supremacy of Peter — " upon this rock will I build my
church." My friend does not like to approach that rock,— He takes

82 DEBATi: OX Tin:

care to keep shy of it. I also quoted " feed my Iambs, — feed my
sheep" — "To thee I will pivc tliekeys of the kinjrdom of lieaven," —
" Blessed art thou, Simon," — and " when thou art anointed confirm thy
brethren," &c. All these texts, and more, did I quote, and the gentle-
man has had my aulliority before him. I shall now strengthen my
quotation from the fathers, adducing overwhelming facts to prove that
Peter was bishop of Home and that the bishops of that see have ever
been regarded in the Catholic church as his successors. Many of my
hearers may suppose that this matter is buried in the night of time —
that history is either silent, or not sufficiently clear upon it. But
when they hear the s))lendid tostimonios I am going to adduce, they
will change their minds on this subject, and confess that, from time
immemorial, in the very earliest ages, the church was precisely the
same, in its faith, its sacraments, its hierarchy, its clergy, &c. &c.
that the Catholic church is at the present day. (Here bishop Purcell
held up the map of the succession of popes from the first, Peter him-
self, down to the present pontiff, Gregory XVI. ; the names of all the
most eminent men in the church ; the date of the establishment of the
gospel in the various countries of the world, the origin and authors of
the various heresies and schisms, their condemnation by general coun-
cils, or synods, &c. &c.) let any other exhibit such an array !

Christ Jesus said to his disciples " go, teach all nations." They
went ! they preached every where, and the world believed ! before
their death they ordained others whose names are here faithfully re-
corded. Hero is the ecclesiastical history of Eusebius, and according
to the pun upon his name (you see by us) you will see by him what
a flood of light irradiates this subject. Eusebius wrote in the 4th
century, and to remove all suspicion I bring before you the translation
of his history by a Protestant minister, C. F. Cruse, A. M. Assistant
Professor of the university of Pennsylvania, 2d. edition, revised and
corrected by the author. [The reading was interrupted by the half
hour's expiring.*]

Four o^cIock, P. M.
Mr. Cami'bici.l rises —

Is the original Greek of Irenaeus extant ? [The bishop intimates,
' iVb.'] Of what authority, then, is the version from which he reads 1
I have never read in Irenaeus nor seen quoted from him a warrant for
the assumption that Peter was ever bishop of Rome ? But of this
again^

After raising such a dust as the gentleman has about Phocas and
Gregory, it has become necessary for me to re-stale my argument.

Gregory the great wrote to ^lauritius, requesting him to induce
John, bishop of Constantinople, to give up his claim to the title of
universal father. Mauritius would not do it. Gregory the great, is
supposed by all antiquity to have harbored a grudge, or bad feeling
towards Mauritius, because of this; and therefore his exultation at
his death, and his easy recognition of the pretensions of his murderer,
which acquiescence, on his part, secured the compliance of Phocas
with the wishes of Gregory, and secured to his successors the title of
universal patriarch, or pope —

[Bishop Purcell here observed, that Phocas was not the murderer
of Mauritius.]

* The extract referred to will be found in a subsequent speech.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 83

Very well, I have the authority of Gibbon for my assertion — not
for saying that he killed him by his own hands : but by his authority,
as he lays to Phocas the blood of Mauritius and his seven children,
on the principle, qui facit per alterum, facit per se. He does himself
what he does by an other. The said Phocas did afterwards, Barronius
being a faithful witness, give the title of universal bishop to Boniface,
Gregory's successor, and who can infer any thing else from all the
circumstances, than I have done ? !

1 thought the gentleman was about to produce authority to prove
that Sylvester did call the council of Nice. This, I again assert he
cannot do. If he think he can, let him attempt it, and we will show
he cannot. We, however, do assert on the authority of Eusebius, and
all ancient history, that Constantino the great did call the council of
Nice ; and we affirm on equal authority, that the pope's legate did not
preside in that council. Whether Hosios did is problematical. It is
inferred from the fact of his being present : but there is no historic
authority for it. But all this is very subordinate and of little value.
The whole question rests upon the itujuiry, TF/tat office had Peter?
What was his ecclesiastical power and patronage 1 Was Peter tlie
prince of the apostles? Was he made the vicar of Christ ? Ay, this
is the question ! It requires explicit — nay, positive scripture authori-
ty — whei% is it ]

The gentleman offers several passages to this point. I shall exa-
mine the prominent texts, and begin with the 16th chapter of Mat-
thew. — I read from Griesbach's Greek Testament. In this chapter,
Christ asks his disciples the question, "Who do men say tliat I ami"
and afterwards asks them, " But who say ye that I am ?" and Peter
answered : "Thou art tlio Christ, the Son of the living God ;" "and
Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed are you, Simon Barjona,
for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father, who
is in heaven : and I say also to you, that you are Peter, and upon this
rock I will build my congregation and the gates of hades sliall not
prevail against it." Matth. xvi. 13 — 18.

" Upon this rock :" was Peter tliis rock 1 The words sound much
alike, {Fetms and Peira). Let us examine the passage. One of the
internal evidences of the truth of the apostolic writings is, that each
writer has something peculiar to himself. So has every s|)eaker and
teacher, that has appeared amongst men. Jesus Christ liimself had
his peculiar characteristics. One of his peculiarities most clearly
marked by the four evangelists is, that he consecrated every scene
and circumstance and topic of conversation to religion or morality. A
few examples, out of many that might be given, must suffice. When
standing by the sea of (lalilee, he says to the fishermen, who were
casting their nets into the sea: "follow me, and I will m;ike you
Juhem of men." At the well of Samaria, he says to a Samaritan wom-
an, from whom he asked a drink — " Whoev(;r .shall drink of this wa-
ter shall thirst again ; but whoever drinks of the water tliiit I shall
give liirn, shall never thirst : but it shall be in him a well of water
sprintring up to eternal life." While with his disciples in the
temple, and seeing the sheep going up to be sacrificed, he says : " My
sheep hear my voice, and they follow me ;" and he speaks of himself
as the true shepherd, who lays down his life for his sheep. Mis dis-
ciples having forgotlcn to l;iKo bread, when embarking on the lake,
and when talking about it, he took occasion to say : " Bewaro of tlio

84 DEBATE O.-y THE

leavon of the Pharisees." When on Mount Olivet, annong the vines
and olives, he says, " I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine-
dresser." And when lookinfj at the temple, he says: "Destroy this
temple, and 1 will huild it in tiiree days." — So in the passage before
us. He asks his diseijjles an all important question, in reply to which,
one of them who happens to Ix; named Fcter, utters the great truth,
upon which he is to found his cliurch forever : " Thou art the Christ,
(the Messiah), the Son of the living (ion." Jesus turns to him
and says : " Thou art stone, and upon this rock (on this great truth
which flesh and blood has not revealed to thee), I will build my
church."

Ej try riergsf, Kit et; t-jlvt-.i th rme/^ — " ei su Petros, kai epi iaute ie peira'^
— ' You are Peter and upon this pclra,^ strikes the ear of a Grecian as
' thou art stone and upon this roc/r,' strikes the ear of an English man ;
and as we have seen is a part of the Savior's peculiarity.

The construction of language requires that the word " //n's" should
refer to something antecedent different from thoa, or you. They are
different in person and in case. But not only does the Savior's peculiar
cKaracteristics, and the change of person from " thou'''' the personal,
to this the demonstrative, fix the sense : but other considerations of

freat moment, forbid any other interpretation. For let me ask, why
id .Tesus propound the question to his apostles — why did he elicit
from them so great a truth, if in the solemn declaration which imme-
diately follows, he meant to pass by that truth and allude to Peter
alone. This would be a solecism unprecedented — a case unparalleled.
The whole authority of the christian religion and all its excellency is
embraced in the radical ideas whicii had been for the first time pro-?
nounced by the lips of man. There are, indeed, but three car<linal
ideas in all christian doctrine : for there can be but three cardinal
ideas about any being. Two of these are distinctly embodied in Pe--
ter's confession of faith. The whole three are, 1st tl>e person, 2nd
the oflice, and 3rd the character of Christ. Beyond these — person
office and character, what conception can mortals have of our Redeemer %
Peter mouthed of these, the two which gave value to the third — The
person and the mission of Jesus. He was the first mortal who, dis-
tinctly and intelligibly avowed the faith, in the person and mission of
Jesus the Nazarene, upon which the empire of the ransomed race
shall stand forever. This is the good confession spoken by Jesus
himself at the hazard of his life, before Pontius Pilate, of which
Paul speaks in terms of the highest admiration.

This great truth deservedly stands forward under the bold meta-
phor of the Rock. But still more creditable to this truth, — not " flesh
and blood," but the Heavenly I'^alher first uttered it from Heaven. On
the banks of the Jordan, when Jesus had honored his Father in his
baptism, his Father honored him ; and was it not worthy to be honor-
ed b)' proclaiming it from the opening sky, " This is my Son, the be-
loved in ichont J dc/ight,^^ while the descending Dove marked him
out? A Pagan poet said,

"3.(-v.r introdufu- a (iod unless upon nn occasion vvoi-tljy of Ijiiii;"*
And who feels not the propriety of such an introduction here ; for
when first spoken, no angel in heaven, nor man on earth, could intro-
duce the Messiah, in his proper person, but his own Father. Now,

* Nee Deus intersit nisi dignus vindice uodus — Inciderit. — //or.

ROMAN CATHOLIC HELIGIOX. 85

because Peter was the first to utter it, Jesus says to him : " I will give
to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall
bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose
on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

What a controversy there has been about these keys. Jesus gave
them to Peter alone — not to him, his heirs, and successors forever ! I
was denoted as heterodox a few years since, because I alleged that
the opening of the reign or kingdom of hiaven, by Peter to Jews and
Gentiles, was the true exposition of the kfeys. But I am glad to see
this view promulged now from various reputable sources, even from
Trinity College, Dublin. Peter opened the kingdom of heaven on
the day of Pentecost, and by divulging a secret never told to that day,
viz. " Let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has
made that Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." This
annunciation of the coronation, or Chrisiing, that is anointing of Je-
sus king and governor of the universe, was a new revelation made on
the Pentecostian morn by Peter. He declared remission on that day
to 3000 souls, and introduced them into the kingdom of the Messiah.
Again, when it pleased God to visit the Gentiles in the family of
Cornelius, a Roman centurion ; an angel sent from heaven, command-
ed him to send for Peter to Joppa to come and tell him and his rela-
tions '•^wofds by which himself and his friends might be saved." He
did so. He sent, and Peter came. Why thus call upon Peter'? Be-
cause Christ's gifts are without repentance. He had given him the
keys. He therefore must open the two-leaved gate, and introduce
both Jews and Gentiles into the kingdom. This being once done,
needs not to be repeated. The gates of heaven have not since been
locked. There is no more use for the keys. Peter has them yet.
He took them to heaven with him. He did not will them to any heir
or successor. The popes are fighting for shadows. Heaven never
trusted such gentry witli tlio keys. They miglit take into their heads
to lock the lierotics out. 1 tliank God that he gave them to Peter,
that Peter opened the gates of the kingdom of heaven to us all, and
that as the popos cannot sluit Ihcm, we do not need them a second
time. Peter will guard them, till he who has the key of David, who
opens and nonf? can shut, will appear a soroiid time. Tluis we dis-
pose rationally, and I think srripturally, of this grand text.

'I'hc next text upon which confidence is placed by my opponent, is
Mhere Christ says to Peter, " Feed my sheep, feed my lambs."
lianguage has no meaning but from the context. Every word serves
to fix the meaning of its contextural associates. We. must read the
2lst chapter of John's Testimony, from the beginning, if we would
correctly understand this |)asaage. The facts are : Peter and some
of his brethren had returned to Cialilee, disconcerted and overwhelm-
ed with the events of the day. They felt themselves destitute, forsa-
ken, and in need. Whih; their master was with them he provided
for them in some way. He eould say, when I sent yon witlnmt scrip
or KlafT or monry, did you lack any thing] They answer( <1, no. Hut
he was gone, and thi'y knew not what to do. in this distress, Peter
says " I am ffoing a fishing," and the rest accompany him : but they
toiled all night and caught nothing. In the morning they see the Sa-
vior walking on the shore ; they know him not. He says to thoni,
"Children, have yf)n any meati" Tliey answer, "no." He tells them
to cast on the other side of the bark. They do so and take a large
H

86 DEBATE ON THE

Tmmber of fish. Peter, when he knew it was the Lord, girt his fish-
erman's garment around him, leaped into the lake, and swam ashore.
They dine together, and after they had eaten to satiety, Jesus says to
Peter, "75o you love me more than these ?"

My construction of these words is, "Do you love me more than
these fish, or these victuals." He then says to Peter, " Feed my
lambs :" and the fact before him and all the circumstances say, I will
feed you.

The bishop's construction is, "Do you love me more than these dis-
ciples love mel" But how could Peter answer such a question -1
Was he omniscient to know how much his companions loved his mas-
ter. In that case he would have said, "Lord I love thee, but I do not
know how much my brethren love thee ; they also love thee, but I
know not whether I love thee more than tliey do." But suppose he
could have known, then I ask, was it comely to ask so invidious a
question ? Would not they have felt themselves disparaged, if Peter
had said, "Yes Lord, I love thee more than all my fellow apostles love
thee!!!"

Peter had erred. He had become discontented — .had forgotten his
duty to his master, and had betaken himself to his former occupation
of fishing, and induced the rest to join him. Christ asks him sol-
emnlj', " Do you love me more than these fish, these boats", nets, ap-
paratus, or these victuals, this worldly employment ] if so, cease to
spend your time in providing food for yourself; but feed my sheep
and lambs, and I will provide for you." Besides, he having caught
nothing till the Master appeared, was a very striking lesson, which I
presume Peter never forgot. I confess, I think the gentleman's inter-
pretation of sheep as bishops, and lambs as laity, most singularly ar-
bitrary and fantastic, and needs not a grave reply. So we dispose of
the second grand text on which the church of Rome has leaned with
so much confidence for so many ages.

My learned opponent has not yet afforded us evidence for his as-
sumption of official supremacy for Peter. These texts reach not the
case. They do not institute a new office bestowed on Peter but are
tokens of esteem, for reasons personal. Every privilege he received
was on account of some personal pre-eminence, not because of an of-
fice which he held. The canon law has decreed that a personal priv-
ilege doth follow the person and is extinguished with the person.
Now as all the honors vouchsafed Peter were in consequence of his
promptness, courage, penitence, zeal, &c. they never can become the
reasons of an hereditary office. His supremacy, or rather superiori-
ty, or primacy, most naturally arose from his being one of the first, if
not the first convert — the oldest of Christ's disciples ; because he was
prompt, decided, courageous, zealous, ardent, and above all, he was
a married man, had a wife and family. And although this fact might
not comport with his being the fountain of papal authority, it obtain-
ed him an honor above John the bachelor, and all the bachelors of
that age !!

Once more on this subject — let ipe ask, who made a more volunta-
ry surrender of himself to his master — who more promptly fors6ok
all that he had, than he — who, when his Lord asked, will ye also leave
me, with more ardor said ; " Lord, to whom shall we go but to thee ;
for thou hast the words of eternal life V Who more courageously,
in the time of peril, drew his sword to defend his Master ] who, when

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 87

the Savior foretold his own sufferings and indignities, more affection-
ately and devotedly exclaimed, in the warmth of his heart, " Lord, it
shall not be so done unto thee !"

It is true that this ardor of disposition, this promptness, this deci-
sion of character, sometimes betray their possessor into errors ; yet
who will not say, give me the man of energy and decision, and ardor
of character] John was meek as a dove; he was innocent and amia-
ble as a lamb, and the Lord loved him ; but those bold and stern, and
manly virtues he wanted, which gave so much interest to the charac-
ter of Peter ; and so admirably fitted him to stand forward and fore-
most, amongst his colleagues and fellow apostles. — [Time expired.]

Half-past 4 o'clock, P. M.
Bishop Purcell rises —

Do you love me more than these JishU My brethren, if the subject
were not too serious, I should call my friend's construction a fish story !

Jesus Christ said to Peter, " lovest thou me more than these T" js/ua
his — what, if fish 1 {i^ovao') plus quam has. There is an end to all
that argument.

Mr. Campbell. That is the Latin version. Let us have the Greek.

Bishop Purcell. The Greek is not more plain, nor will it prove
your interpretation less revolting, less contrary to the obvious and
more common interpretation of the text. Sad conclusion this, which
my learned opponent reserved as his main reliance, for the last hour
of the day ! And is it thus that he proves the church of Rome to be
neither catholic, apostolic, nor holy, but an apostacy from the only
true, holy and apostolic church of Christ 1 He is heartily welcome
to the proselytes this argument may gain to his tottering cause.
Let learned Protestants now claim their champion's services in the
difficult task of interpreting the scripture — or let them, as I have pro-
phesied they would do, repudiate his advocacy.

The change of name from Simon to Peter, shows that Christ chose
him to be, beyond the other apostles, a rncA-, or more firm, more con-
stant, more immoveabi»' than they — and tliat forever — in the confession
of his divinity, his real nresence with his church and all the other
truths he had vonrhsafccl to reveal to thn world. A rock does not
melt. — The winds may beat and the rains may fall, but the house
built upon a rock will stand, not for a few years, but forever. And
as the rork, in the physi<'al order loses not its nature, so neither do the
promises of Christ lose their efficacy. "Thou art Peter, (or a rock)
and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall
not prevail against it." .Mattiicw xvi. 18.

A professor of Andovcr ('oilegc has i)ublished a volume, I think it
is entitlfd "Elements of Sacred Criticism." I have examined this
work, but my memory retains not the author's name, — perhajjs some
of the learnfd gentlemen present may aid it by the suggestion — how-
ever, he substantiates my interpretation, or ratbrr that of all ages, by
incontrovertil)le argiimcnf. And I eoiifcss tlic Anieriran College has,
in this instanee, a decided superiority, both in sound eriticism and or-
thodoxy, over the "dumb sister," as the Knglish and Srotch universi-
ties have invidiously, or faretiously, named Trinity College, Dublin.

There is one plausible <iiirieulty, ajrainst tiie testimony of I'eter'a
havintr fixed bis residence at Rome, whieh the gentleman has overlook-
ed, viz. that Paul does not mention Peter in his epistle to the Romans.

88 DKBATK ON THE

To explain this, it is only necessary to observe, Paul wrote A. D. 57.
in the reign of Claudius, when Peter was absent from Rome ; and
this the illustrious convert of Damascus knew. But why waste time
on a subject undisputed for fifteen hundred years. Pearson, Grotius,
Usher, Hammond, Blondel, IScalifrer, Casaubon, Dumoulin, Petit,
Basnage, all agree that Peter transferred his see to Rome and there
suffered martyrdom.

And here another objection is overruled ; he said there had been
contests among the apostles, who should be greatest. He said that
if Peter had confessed that he loved him most, a greater controversy
would have arisen. But there was good cause to the contrary. An-
drew saw him first — John reposed on his bosom, &c. — for many rea-
sons, these disputes may have arisen — surely such objections after so
great a mass of testimony deserved not serious attention.

I have long ago seen, in a little work written in Philadelphia, the
remarks of my friend about the Savior's saying he was the vine, when
among the vines, on mount Olivet, &c. &c. This is not therefore orig-
inal or new.

I now take up a connected argument on the apostolicity of the church,
for I wish this matter to go before the public in its peculiar strength.
I look upon it as the most powerful argument that can be advanced in
favor of the Catholic church. I read from Fletcher. His style is good.

" Christ Jesus had called the apostles '■Jishers of men,' he had told them to
'g'O and preach the gospel lo every creature,' assuring them, at the same time,
that 'all power was given to him iyi heaven, and on earth,' and that ' himself
would be always with them.' Animated by this commission, and these assurance*,
and fired too with the love of God, and an ardent charity for men, these heroic
victims of benevolence, did ' go forth and preach.' I'hey preached; and although
the world with all its passions, prejudices and super.ititions was leagued against
them; — although its doctrines, which they preached, were repugnant to all the
bad propensities of the heart, and exceeded far the measure of the human under-
standing; yet did an immense portion of the public, of the corrupted and
the vicious, of the learned and the enlightened, hear them, and believe. They
preached; and the love of vice was converted into zeal for innocence; prejudice,
into the desire of truth: superstition, into the warmth of piety. Vice itself was
exalted into the heroism ot sanctity; and every defilement done away, which cor-
ruption had introduced into the sanctuary of the heart. They preached; and
Satan, like a thunderbolt, was hurled from his throne; his temples razed; his
altars overturned; and idolatry, abashed and trembling, fled from those scenes,
which it had so long disgraced by its follies, and infected by its abominations.
They preached; and the Lniverse was changed ! The spectacle which theyexhi-
bitecl was new; the spectacle of exalted virtue and consummate wisdom. Men
beheld the virtue and it edified them; they listened to the wisdom, and it con-
vinced them. In this manner did the first apostles of Jesus Christ completely
realize the figure of the 'Jishers of men,' completely verify the assurance which
their divine Master had given them, that ' himself wovld be always with them,'
completely illustrate that passage of St. Paul, in which he says, ' God employs
the weak to confound the strong, and the foolish to confute the wise.' It is the
call and mission of the apostles, which are the sources of the call and mission
of their successors; and it is the successes that attended the preaching of the
apostles, that are the proof, not only of the divinity of their mission, but of the
mission of those who have replaced, and shall yet replace them till the end of
time. In religion, as every thing was originally apostolical , so every thing to
merit veneration, must continue apostolical. According to the definition and
import of apostolicity, it is necessary that the church which was founded by the
apostles, and the mission also which was imparted to the apostles, should,
without destruction, or interruption, have been perpetuated to the age we live
in, firm amid revolutions, unchanged amid changes.

I have said, that to ascertain in the Catholic cnurch this stability of duration,
a more positive proof cannot be adduced, than the spectacle of its pastors (who

E03IAN CATHOLIC BKLIGION. 89

compose a large portion of its members, and whose functions are the most im-
portant duties of religion) rigularjy in each age, succeeding to each other, and
trausiuitling to each, the mission which origiiialh- had been inherited from the
iiauds of the apostles. The only diliicull)' here, is by the light of evidence to
establish these important facts. Well, wy brethren, and this is what, without
any difficulty, the Catholic exults to do. To do it we need only to consult the
recordsof history; those records which the Protestant himself considers authentic.
The light of history is a testimony, which, beyond the power of reasonable doubt,
attests the regular and perennial succession of the Catholic ministry.

The apostles, whom Christ had sent, as his Father had sent him; and with
■whom, likewise, he had promised to remain all Jays to the end of the world; in
consequence of the above commission and assurance, chose for themselves co-
operators and successors in their sacred ministry: — co-operators, in order to
■assist them in the government of the churches which their zeal had planted; —
successors, to whom, on occasion of their departure from this scene of their
labors, they might resign the burden of their lunctions, and the honor of their
sees. jVow, fortunately for the cause of religion, we have in the annals of
history, and in the writings of the learned, the accounts very carefully preserved-,
of the resignations, which the apostles made of ^hcir functions and sees to their
successors; and of the resignations also which their successors' successors made,
during a series of ages, to the pastors, who, in long order, have till the present
age, continually replaced each other. Among these accounts, that which of all
others is the most interesting, and which religion has preserved with the nicest
care, is the history of the continuation until to-day, of the apostolic powers which
Christ Jesus conferred upon the prince of the apostles, St. Peter. We have,
thanks to that Providence, whicli watches over the church, and which marks its
paths with beams of light, we have the proof of this continuation so luiiiinously
attested, so evident, that not hostility can contest, nor incredulity doubt it.
Important testimony! itself a bright feature in the divinity of the church; a tes-
timony, which, proving immtdiateij the apostolicity of the mission of its supreme
pastors, proves also immediately, yet directly, the apostolicity of the mission of
aU its other pastors. For, if you consult the rolls of history, you will find that
with our supreme pastors, the Catholic pastors of every age, and of every nation,
were always united in communion; acknowledging their supereminence, and
revering their jurisdiction; considering them as the great source, after Christ,
of spiritual power, and the centre of spiritual unity.

There have been several distinguished writers, who, incapable of misrepresen-
tation, and possessing the means of knowing the history of the successors of St.
Peter, and the order of their succession, have carefully handed down to us, each
to bis own time, the lists of these illustrious men. The first of these I believe,
who is known to have preserved the important catalogue, is .St. Irenaeus.

After TerluUian, the next who continues the catalogue of St. Peter's succes-
sors, is St. Oplalus. He brings it down to the time of Siricius; that is, to the
year three hundred Juid eighty-four. * In this one chair,' says the saint, speak-
ing of the tee of Home, • sal Feter first, to him succeeded lAniis,lohim Cltmenl,

if. To Liheriiis succeeded JJamasns ; to Damasus, .Siricius, the present

pontiff, with whom we and all the world hold communion. And now,' he addsi
addresning himself cxultingly to the Doiiatist, 'and now, do you ^irc an account
of the orifrinof your sees, you, that pretend to call yourselves the Catholic church.'
(Contra Parmen.)

St. Austin is another writer, who had attended to the succession, and has preserv-
ed for us, the list ot St. Petir's successors; deriving from the long order of their con-
tinuance, the same conclusions as did Ircnicus, '1 ertnllian, niid Optatiis. The list
which the Saint has rommunicated, reaches down to his own time, to the pontifi-
cate of Innocent the first, in the year four hundred and two, and in its earlier
eras, it exactly corresponded with the list which I have alluded to already.
♦ Come,' »ay» he to the Donatists, ' come, lirethren, if it he that you wish to lie in-
grnfied on the vine. J weep to see you as you are ; lopped o/f from its sacred
stock. Count up the pontiffi in the chair of I'ctcr, and in tjutt order see which
tuccerded which. This is that Rock, over which, the proud gales of hell cannot
prevail.'

Hcnrr, without the necessity of producing further t<->timonirii. it follown, if
men will not contest tlie authority, or cull in <)ue»lion the veracity of sonic of
the fairest characters, that the christian world reveres; it follows that from the

«2 la

DO DKUATE ON TIIF,

time of St. Pt'ter to tlic time of Innoront, in the fifth rrntury, there existed ?n
the sf o of Rome, an iniiiiterrupt. il cliaiii of jias-tors, and a continuation of an
apostolic mission. The continuation of that .same apostuiic mis.-iion which Christ
Jesus had imparted to St. Peter. Only he, can doubt tliis, whose incredulity
doubts of every thing.

And has the chain of Roman pastors, — for this is now the only point which we
must investigate, — been continued and extended from the time of Innocent the
first, to the present day; an interval, it is true, extremely long, and filled up with
storms, and changes, and revolutions and great events? Yes, the chain has been
continued and extended all this whole length of period; from Innocent, who
consoled the great Chrj'sostom, under the persecution of an ambitious princess,
to Fius the seventh, wlio himself is the heroic victim of the persecution of a re-
lentless \ ictor. Indeed, the fact is so obvious, it is not even contested. It is
conceded by tlie men, who are interested to deny it. To be assured of it, you
need only to consult the political annuls of any considerable state, or to appeal
in our historians to the mere tal^lets of chronology. You will find that all give
to our Roman pontill's the same line and hngth of succession, which I here
assign them. Their conduct has been always prominent; their influence always
conspicuous. I'ew were the great events and transactions, in which, cither
from a principle of piety, or sometimes of ambition, they did not bear a part.

Yes, but if prompted by curiosity, you will give yourselves the trouble to con-
sult the annals of the church, there you will trace, more distinctly still, the evi-
dence of the truth, wliich I am novv establishing;. There attending to the occur-
rences of each epoch, you will observe, that the helm which had been confided
to the trust of Peter, is with the greatest regularity transferred from hand to
hand; and with pious care, confided to the trust of each successor. You may
mark the name, and read the character of each individual, who directed it, the
date of the day when it was committed to his guidance; and the hour, almost,
when he resigned. In short, admitting the accuracy of the lists which have been
preserved by Irenneus, Tertullian, &c., you trace in the annals of the church, a
clear, plain, and incontestible evidence of a line of Roman pontiffs, the succes-
sors of St. Peter, during the long course of above eighteen hundred years.

If tlie ancient fathers, in their times, and at the distance only of a few years,
so triumphantly produced the list of these holy men, evincing by it the divinity
of the church, and the apostolicity of the mission of its pastors, and by it confu-
ting the novelty and clain)s of heresy; if Tertullian, impressed with tlie force of
this argument, victoriously called out to the hosts of innovators, " sheiu us any
thing like this. Unfold and shew us the origin of your churches ; shew us the list
of your bishops, in regular order from tlie days of the apostles, succeeding to
each other;" if he couJd say to them, " fVho are you? Whence is your origin de-
rived? JVhat have you to do in my estate? lam the possessor. My posses-
sionis ancient. I am the heir of the apostles." if he could say all this; and
from this, after scarcely the lapse of two centuries and the succession of hardly
a dozen pontitis, demonstrate the apostolicity of the church; with how much
more reason and with how nmch more effect, might I, or any other Catholic,
demonstrate its apoetolicity at present, at psesent when the continuance of Pe-
ter's successors (ornis a chain, of above eighteen hundred years, and their num-
ber fills up a list of above tivo hundred and fifty pontiffs? Oh! were only a Ter-
tullian now, or an Austin, standing in the same situation in which I am placed
before you, addressing you from this seat of truth and pressing the same argu-
ment, which I do to day, upon your attention; and pressing it recommended by
the circumstances which I have just referred to, how the thoughts would glow,
and the words burn, with which the}' would convey the exultation of these feel-
ings to j-ou! How the cause of truth would triumph in their eloquence! With
what redoubled enthusiasm would they exclaim, " let heresy sheio any thing like
this?" In reality, if the argument which these great men have employed to
prove the apostolicity of the church, proved aught in their times, it certainly
proves the same, and a great deal more, at present.

To the thoughtful and the philosophic mind, there ia much, I have already ob-
served, to admire in the stability of^ the church amid the fluctuation of human
things. It is the same in regard to the long continuance of the successors of St.
Peter. Wisdom and reason, when they consider it, are struck with wonder;
and piety discovers in it the visible effect of an Almighty superintendance. The
institutions of men soon perish. The modifications of human policy do not long

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 91

retain their forms. Nothing human is permanent. To contemplate, therefore, an
order of pontifl's reaching the whole length of eighteen centuries unchanged,
whilst every thing else was changing; uninterrupted, whilst all other institutions
were perishing. — is a spectacle at once striking, awful, and impressive ; calculat-
ed to inspire the protestant himself, if not with the conviction of its divinity, at
least with a conviction of its wisdom ; with a respect for its strength ; with a
veneration for its antiquity. Let only reason cast a look into the annals of time,
or recall to its recollection the events and revolutions, which during the lapse of
eighteen centuries, have taken place on the theatre of life. During that interval,
in every kingdom of the civilized world, every government has changed its form ;
every dynasty resigned its power : every empire sgnk to ruin. Rome itself, dur-
ing It, has experienced in particular, a'll the vicissitudes of human instability :
has been ruled alternately by Consuls, Kniperors. Kings and Exarchs : has been
taken, plundered, sacked 'and reduced almost to a heap of ashes. In short, during
it, every thing that is human and political,— the work of the power and ambition.
of the wisdom and art of men, has either perished or undergone a variety of al-
terations — Kingdoms, states, cities, monuments, laws, opinions, customs, here-
sies. JVought but the succession of our pontifl's, and the institutions of our holy
religion, have remained unaltered. These alone, amid the general revolution ;
amid the storms of war ; the ravages of passion ; the conflicts of heresy, subsist
undecayed and undecaying. They even subsist in spite of all those evils ;
though assailed by the violence of persecution ; though combated by the machi-
nations of passion ; though attacked by the artificesof error ; though assaulted by
the combined efforts of vice, Satan aiid the world. Surely prejudice itself will
own it, — a succession of Pastors thus perpetuated for eightten centuries, and per-
petuated amid such obstacles, is not the efl'ect of chance, nor of earthly policy;
not the creation of ambition, northe ofl'spring of worldly wisdom. The only
method of accounting rationally for it, is to allow, that it is the result of a divine
institution ; and the consequence of that assurance given by ourgreat Redeemer
to his apostles, that he icould be u-ith them all days, to the end of the world; — or
in other words, that it is the result and the iiroof of an apostolic mission.

from the evidences of the apostolicity ot the church of Rome, is inferred the
evidence of the apostolicity of the various other Catholic churches, which are
disposed throughout the universe. In reality, they are all of them the parts of
one whole ; the branches of one tree ; the streams of one fountain ; the rajs of
one sun. They all form only one communion, whose centre and head is the
church of Rome. Of these churches, some were established by the apostles
themselves, and their immediate successors ;— some and a very considerable part,
by the soccessors of St. Peter, the Roman pontiffs, who in each age have w i(h pi-
ous zeal, deputed missionaries to preach the gospel in almost every region of the
globe. Rutin every age, and in every region, the churches that were thus
planted, vsere only considered ae apostolical, or as portions of the true church,
from the evidence of their union with the church ot Rome. It is the remark of
St. Jerome ; (hat no bishop was ever acknowledp^ed to he a lavful bishop,
except in as much, as he was united in communion with the chair of SI.
Filer."

And why may I not adduce as another evidence of the apostolic mission of
our pastors, the venerable subsistence of a multitude of other churches, which,
without having lasted from the age, which saw the apostle<! live, have still lasted
from the ages that are not long subsequent to it ? 'Phis is the rase with several
churches in Sjjain, Italy, IVaiice, A:c. In Spain, the churches of Toledo, Cordo
va, Ac. in Itiilv.thoie of Milan, Naples, &c. in F'rance, those of Lyons, Tours.
etc. have subnisted from the early ages of christian fervor ; from those ages which
are often denominated apostolical, down to the- present period of de'ge nerac}'.
Their nnnalt, more accurately preserved than the iiiinals of civil govt rimii nis,
exhibit to onr astonished, but gratifird reason, a line of pnstorsduring this whole
length of age» — unbroken anel uninlerrupte-d — uninjureel by the violence of per-
secutions, at well ns unimpaired l)y the sunshine ol prosperity ; n line of pai-tors
that in canonical succession have' till the present day, replaced rarli other.
These are monuments of stability, coinpareil with winch profane history has
nothing similar ; I'rolrstanlism nr)thing analogous. These too atdsl the n|)os(ol-
icily of the mission of our pastors; nnd th<' apostolicity conm qiiently of our
church. And now once more, let it be recollected, in relation tonll thesecliurches,
that their founders, and the successors of their founders, were in comniunion with

92 ' DEBATE ON THE

the see of Ranie: — the former ileputod perhaps ininicd lately by it ; the latter ex-
ulting: always in their union with it us the best proof of tiic apostolicity of their
own <!f Icgiition."

f Tlio above qiiotntion was read in parts, in twu Jifierent speeclies ; but it has been
thought prO)i>;r to ins. rt it entire, here.]

I close here. To-morrow is the sabbath of our God. Let us de-
vote the remainder of the day to the preparation of our souls for its
holy duties.

MONDAY, January 16th, Half past ^ o'clock, A. M,
RIr. Campbell rises —

It is a trite and a true observation, that the material universe is re-
solvable into a very few elementary principles. And not a iev; of our
wisest philosophers supptjse that the time may yet come, in the pro-
gress of chemical science, when material nature will be resolved into
some two, or three rudimentary elements. The sciences, too, mental
and moral, are all resolvable into a few great cardinal principles.

The papal empire itself depends also upon a few points, indeed, up-
on one great point, and thai relates to the office upon which the whole
superstructtire rusts. The most fundamental question is not whether
the apostle Peter was invested with the office of pope, or vicar of
Christ; but rather lohelher there ever ivas such an office at all. On this
question we have not proceeded in the most logical manner. I have
been compelled to approach it at different times, and by different ave-
nues. My opponent has not adverted to the rules of this discussion.
I am compelled to lead, and he to follow. He can only lawfully reply
to such matter as I introduce. But instead of replying to my argu-
ments, already offered, he read you some dissertations upon succession
to an office, not yet canvassed and established. This reading of for-
eign discussions instead of replying to me is contrary to our rules and
most illogical. I hope we shall have no more of it. What was read
on Saturday afternoon on the question of succession is clearly irrele-
vant. Before we contend about succession, the question is, What is
to be succeeded to ? We have had seven presidents, and the succes-
sion is indisputable; yai the office depends not upon the seven incum-
bents, nor upon their rightful succession ; but upon what is written in
the constitution — upon the positive and express institution of the office.

If it is not found in the constitution, succession is of no virtue:
however unbroken and orderly it may be, the present incumbent has
no power. The grand question then is, Is there in the constitution of
the Christian church, in the New Covenant, or last Testament, a chair
of primacy, or superintendency? This is the logical and the cardinal
question. On this single point rest all the fortunes of the papacy in
an enlightened comnmnity. I wish all to perceive it, and I will pre-
sent it in different forms. The first question is, Has Jesus Christ ap-
pointed the office of pope? The second, Who was the first officer? Third,
IVus there a succession ordained ? and fourth, Has that succession been
preserved uncoriupt to the present day ? In this way our reason, or
common sense, or logic arranges the matter; and in this way only can
it be rationally and scripturally decided. With all men of sense, the
controversy will hang on this point. A failure here is ruin to the

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 93

cause. If this point cannot be proved, it is as useless to contest oth-
ers, as it would be to finish a house that is built upon the ice. Strike
off the head and the body perishes. Yet this capital point rests upon
an inference !

How would an American like to be told that the office of president
depended upon an inference 1 that there was no provision for it in the
constitution — that it was inferred from twenty clauses, scattered here
and there in as many sections'? Could it be possible, that the
greatest office in this nation — the very head of this government, should
rest on the construction of these clauses ; that there is no chapter in
the constitution, expressly creating the office 1 Yet, this is precisely
the case with the pope. The gentleman does not claim for him a po-
sitive grant in the New Testament. He must acknowledge that there
is no such office distinctly asserted — that it depends on the reasonings
of fallible men to ferret it out. Here I must expose the nakedness of
the land and sweep from the arena the dust of tradition, which blinds
the eyes of implicit believers.

It is said by the Romanists that a belief in the supremacy of the

fiope is essential to salvation. Boniface VIII. decrees in his canon
aw in the words following:
" Moreover we declare, and say, and define, and pronounce to every human
crealure, that it is altogether necessary to salvation to be subject to the Roman
pontiir."

It appears, if not pedantic, at least awkward to read Latin to an
English audience. However, my learned opponent, so often sets me
the example, that he will allow me to quote this important decree :

" Subesse Romano Pontifici, omnis humana' crcalurce declaramus, dicimus,
dcjinimxis, et prunimciamus omnino esse necessitate salutis."

It is then solemnly decreed that a ^belief in, and submission to, the
Roman pontiffis essential to salvation. Ought not, then, his authority
to be as clearly pointed out in the Bible as the mission of Jesus
Christ? for the person and mission and sacrifice of Christ are to us
useless, without faith in the pope. Again, of what use is the Bible,
without this belief; and especially, if so important a matter is so ob-
scurely expressed in it as to rest upon a mere inference 1 Does the
person and office of Christ depend on a mere inference 1 Is it not as-
serted and re-asserted, a liundrcrl times by the voices of all the j)ro-
phcts and apostles of both Testaments 1 In the Jewish economy, the
high Priest was on earth : but in our economy he is in Heaven. There
was truth in the type, and there must be truth in the anti-type. Yet
every thing concerning that priesthood was positively and expressly
ordained. The office, the officr-r, the succession, and tiic means of
keeping the blood pure. For, No man dare "lake that office upon
himself, but he that was called of God, as was Aaron." Aaron then
was distinctly called to be a high priest. Now we argue that if wo
had a high priest on earth imder our high Priest in heaven, and if salva-
tion hang upon obedience to him : it ought to be as clear as that of Aaron.
But in referenci! to the Old Testament priesthood, we find every
thing distinctly and unefjuivocally stated, Kxodus xxviii. 1. "Take
Aaron and his sons from among the children of Israel, that In- and they
may minister to me in fhe pritist's office." Again, xl. I.'}. " And thou
shalt sanctify Aaron and his sf)ns, that he may niinistcr to nic \n the
priest's office; and their anointing ahnll surely lie an evcrlustin^ prie»t-
hood Ihroughottt their generalioni." How often in the books of the

94 DEfiATE OS rttfi

law, and in (he subsequent history of the Jews, as it is in 1 Chron. 23(!
and 24th chapters, do we find the unequivocal institution and records
of this priesthood !

But it is not only in a distinct and unequivocal call and consecra-
tion, but in the subsequent care evinced in sustaining this appoint-
ment, that we see the necessity of such a positive and express cove-
nant and understanding. The rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram,
and the destruction, by a miraculous interposition, of themselves and
of their company, together with two hundred and fifty princes of Israel,
for seeking to invade the office, is another solemn attestation of the
divine erection of this oflice, and the certain call of Aaron's family.

Again : The appointment of God to select an almond rod for each
tribe, and to inscribe the name of each of the twelve families upon
those rods, every tribe's name upon a separate rod, and the miraculous
buddingr and blossomino and almond-bearing of Aaron's rod, in the
course of a single night, was another settlement of this matter, so spe-
cial, supernatural, and divine, as to put it to rest for ever. Here we
ought to read in full the 16th and 17th chapters of Numbers ; but we
have only time to refer to them. Thus by a positive call, and two
splendid and av; fully glorious miracles, was the office of the high
priesthood established in Israel.

And may we not ask, that if as Boniface has defined, and all Roman
Catholics believe, ^that there is no salvation, but in the admission of the
divine call of the popes of Rome ;^ ought not the institution of a new
order to be as clearly pointed out, and sustained in the new law, as it
was in the old ] !

But my opponent has to concede that there is no such positive or
express institution of St. Peter's chair, nor of his call and consecra-
tion, nor any law of succession whatever in the New Testament; and
that it rests wholly upon inference. Now, if no man can take this
honor upon himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron, where
is the office and the authority of the popes of Rome 1 ! There is for it
no such call. Or will my friend say that mere inference or assump-
tion is a proper foundation for such a call and office?

On Saturday evening I began the examination of the premises from
which is inferred this high and responsible office ; and so far, I think,
proved that he cannot even find a good logical inference for it. In
Matthew xvi. we found no support to the idea that the church of Jesus
Christ was to be built upon ilie flesh and blood and bones of Peter;
neither upon his person nor office. We saw that every rule of gram-
mar — that the construction of language forbade such a transition as
was necessary to the hypothesis. To have addressed Peter in the
second and third persons as both present and absent, in the same
breath, is wholly unprecedented. To have spoken of him, and to
him at one time, in one period, and on a matter so cardinal as making
him the foundation of his church, is not to be admitted on the autho-
rity of mere assumption, without a single case parallel in all holy writ
to lay along side of it.

The case in no rational point of view will endure such violence.
Jesus asked for a confession, Peter gave it. The conversation turned
upon that confession, and not upon Peter. The comment ought to
have been upon the text, and not upon him that gave it. It was upon
the text and not unon the preacher.

ROMAN CATHOLIC Seligion. 95

We Protestants say that the church is founded on the thing con-
fessed. Christ himself is, indeed, the rock ; hut fijruratively the truth
which represents him. I was struck with astonishment when I heard
my worthy opponent say, that Peter was the rock, and Christ only a
stone in this spiritual temple !

[Bishop Purcell here explained, ' that he had said that Christ waa
the corner stone which was to strengthen and give consistency to the
foundation ; and Peter the rock which was to strengthen and give con-
sistency to the superstructure.'] Mr. Campbell proceeded:

Christ the corner stone! and Peter the rock ! ! Does this help the
matter 1

What says 1 Cor. iii. " Other foundation can no man lay than what
is already laid," — very Peter!! No, indeed; but Jesus Christ him-
self is the corner stone, the rock, the foundation? Then Peter is but
a slone, as his name imports. But there were eleven other stones of
equal value : for, says the Holy Spirit, the church is built upon the
foundation of the apostles — all the apostles; and of the prophets too!
When, then, all these stones are at the foundation, and Christ the chief
corner, where is the room for Peter the rock 1

But, we have other expressions that illustrate Matthew xvi. Look-
ing at the temple one day, Jesus said to those before him, "Destroy
this temple and I will build it again in three days." Were the per-
sons he addressed in the second person and the temple the same thing 1
Here, then, are the persons addressed, the subject of conversation, and
himself — you, (the addressed,) and the temple, (himself.) So have
we Peter, his confession, and Christ the builder of the church, in the
passage before us. They understood by his question that he spoke of
his body; but his body was not himself: neither was the confession
of Peter, Christ himself; nor Peter's person, the rock of ages. Surely
the papal rock is not as our rock ; our enemies themselves being judges.

Bat petros and petra sound alike, and therefore, though of different
gender, case, and person, they must be identical ! Of the person and
case we have said eno\igh, (for my friend has not attempted to refute
it.) Of the difference in gender, he will tell us, that it was written in
Syriac, and that the word signifying stone in that language is of no
gender. This is gratuitous. He can produce no copy of Matthew in
Syriac; the only authentic copy we have is that before me. It is the
Greek version of Matthew : " 7'Aoit" is in the second person, and "//uV
is in the third. I'ctros is masculine and I'ltra is feminine. It is impos-
sible for langiiajTc to do more to prevent iiiislakc ; and he that would
attempt to explain away these three — gender, person and case, is not
subject to the laws of language, neither tnrfccrf can be.

It is commonly observed that Peter seems not to have been any bet-
ter qualified aftrT than before the confession, to be the foundation of the
church : for In- is reproved for his worldly notions of the Messiah and
his kingdom, in these words ; " (ict llur In hind mr, adrrr^ary; for lliou
relishest not the things of God ; but the things of man." Tlie word sa-
innan signifies adversary. Jesus calls him not hn salanan, Satan ; but
simply opponent. Stand aside thou who o|)posest nic in this matter :
Thou dost not understand these divine ihiiiirs.

There is nnothr-r of the bishop's texts to which, out of courtesy, I
must allude : " Peter, when thou art converted, confirm your breth-
ren." The meaning of w hich is, — Peter, as you have experienced the

96 DKBATE OiN THE

bitterness of repentance, you can hereafter comfort and strengthen your
penitent brethren. My learned opponent interprets it thus ; Peter,
when you are converted, you shall be my vicar and prince of the apostles .'

John xxi, "Lovest thou me more than these,'''' is again before us. The
bishop will have these to refer to the apostles. My audience will re-
member that when I read the Greek of the passage, he quoted Latin
{plus quam has,) as if to correct the Greek by deciding that these was
masculine and not neuter, the very point in debate — that when he was
challenged to sustain his Latin comment by the original, he immedi-
ately after taking up the Greek Testament laid it down.

It will elucidate this passage to read the whole in the original, verse
13th.

Eo^tTca 'Utou( Kit KnfAQayti tov oigTov, jcai SUceiriv aLiTo7(, )fxiTo l-^dptov ofxotut.
In reference to which Jesus says, Sijua<v lav:*, ayA-n-ac f*t ^tkuov TovruVi
The grammatical antecedent to Tourm must be tov i^rcv and th
c^aV/iv, which makes it neuter. Now, I ask, on what grammatical
authority does the Vulgate convert these into the masculine 1
Ought a translator to judge for his readers, or ought he to give
the same latitude of inquiry to his readers which the original gives to
him. The latter, certainly. So decides the highest tribunal in the
commonwealth of letters. And neither my opponent nor his Latin
nor Greek supplements, nor interpolations, have any right to make that
masculine, which the original makes at least doubtful, bimself being
judge : and according to my judgment, on the laws of language, cer-
tainly, neuter.

On what precarious, inferential and illogical grounds rest the proud
aspirations of the pope of Rome ! He out-rivals the proudest mon-
archs of the east. He that styles himself " brother to the sun and
moon," and " disposer of Asiatic crowns," is modest compared with
the vicar, who claims dominion over angels and saints in heaven —
over all the spirits in the wide domains of purgatory ; who styles him-
self, or permits others to address him as a God on earth — as " his holi-
ness, Lord God the Pope," as holding the keys of heaven and hell, and
the two swords of ecclesiastic and political justice ; and all this mighty
empire resting upon the words, "/)e<ra," '■'■strengthen thy brethren ^^
" lovest thou me more than these,'''' '■'■feed my sheep and lambs," &c.
Was there ever so proud a superstructure reared upon so many and
so baseless assumptions V.

The gentleman quoted yet another verse from the Vulgate ; 1 Pet.
V. 3, " Be not lords over the clergy.'''' Hence he infers, the apostle Pe-
ter had the clergy under him. But the apostle says, " not as lords
over the. clergy," there then, was a plurality of lords,— -not one su-
preme head ! Although this passage was quoted at an early period
of the discussion, by my opponent, 1 reserved my remarks upon it till
now. It reads in the original and the common version, " not as lords
over the heritage, lot, or people of the Lord." KhyiPOi, the word here
translated clergy, occurs twelve times in the New Testament, and in
nine of these it is translated lot. In Acts, xxvi. 18, and in Col. i. 12,
it is translated inheritancn, and in the passage before us, it may be
either lot, heritage, or inheritance .• but clergy is most whimsical and
arbitrary. As well might the Vulgate have said to Simon Magus,
*' thou hast neither part nor clergy in this matter:" or, in Col. i. 12,
" he has fitted us to partake in the clergy of the saints." In both

KOMAN CATHOLIC EELIGION. 97

cases the word is the same in the original. Tliese shew by what
Q stretch of power and arbitrary dominion over words, these critics
would bring theclergry or christian ministry under the bishop of Rome.
So fades from the face of reason the whole evidence from the Bible, in
favor of the grand office without which the papacy is as mere a fig-
ment of fancy as the visions of the prophet of Islamism !

Having found the office of vicar, or general superintendant of the
whole church, the universal -episcopate of Rome, without express or
positive precept or institution, and without even inferential probability;
I proceed in the third place to show still farther, that it is anti-scrip-
tural, rK)t only in theory, but in the facts recorded. >

I have said that the first church was the Hebrew. It was catholic
and apostolic -: for all the twelve apostles were in it. This cannot
be said of any other society that ever existed. The whole college of
the twelve apostles had their seat in Jerusalem. The Samaritan
daughter of .Jerusalem was the first fruits out of Judea. Philip, one of
the apostles' evangelists, carried the word of the Lord to Samaria.
They had l>elieved. repented, and been baptized. News is brought to Je-
rusalem. The cardinals all meet. — The twelve apostles are in session.
But where is Peter's chair ? The prince of the apostles, the vicar of
Christ, had not yet learned his duty, and his brethren had not yet
learned to call him pope. The fact is, they made a legate of him.
They sent two legates to Jerusalem. And who do you think were the
two first apostolic legates 1 They, indeed sent pope Peter and his broth-
er John !! Thus it is clear that the notion of Peter's universal episco-
pacy, and princeship of the apostles was not yet conceived. This fact
speaks a volume against the pretended successors of Peter.

But — again, and still more humiliating to his successors, when Peter
had introduced the Gentiles into the church, the brethren of the circum-
cision rose up en masse against him, not regarding him as having the
least supreme authority in the case. " How," do you ask, " did Peter
receive the complaints from all quarters for his daring to innovate, by
mere authority on ail tht; iioly brethren ? Did he say, I am Christ's
vicar — chief of the apostles, — the supreme head of the church — I hold
the keys of the kingdom of heaven ; and do you demand of me, why /
should act thus" ?! Never thus, spoke Peter. He did not assume any
thing : but tells the matter over, and shows how God had opened the
door of faith to the Gentiles ; " and what was I," ho reasons, " that I
should withstand (iod V Ought 1 to have stood up and said to the
Gentiles, you shall not enter the kingdom of the Messiah, nor be en-
rolled amongst the children of God] — In the 11th chapter of the Acts
of the apostles, we have a full exposition of the groundless piolension
of his successors, in the details of this case from the lips of the apos-
tle himself. A third instance of the entire absence of all such vicars
in the primitive church, appears in the '* council held at Jerusalem."
So the bishop's party designate it, and for the sake of argument, let it
be a ronnril.

It was not railed by Peter the pope, nor was it a council of the
whole world; but of two or three churches. Well, they met. Who
was president] Neither the pope nor his legates. Peter is not in the
chair; but on the floor. He spoke first, as he was always accustomed
to do: but did he dictate the co\irse to be pursiied? No. Had he the
honor of drafting or submitting the decrees] He had not. He arose
I 13

98 DEBATK 0.\ THE

and spoke to the assembly, and told what God had done by him among
the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas, also on the floor, then stated what
the liord had done by them amon^r the Gentiles, and when they had
done, James arose to present his views, "il/y sentence is''' says he,
" that we ought to write so and so to the Gentiles." In his views they
all acquiesced. They do not say in this letter, "it seemed good to
Peter!" No, " it seemed good to «s." Indeed, if any was pope in
this assembly, it was James: not Peter. All the popes of Rome as
successors of Peter, are therefore not only unscriptural ; but anti-scrip-
tural.

Again, and stronger still. In Gal. 1st chap, we are told of a cer-
tain controversy between Paul and Peter, — not about faith, nor moral-
it)'; but about expediency. Paul never would have related this mat-
ter : but in self-defence. There were some in Galatia that regarded
him as a sub-apostle, not equal to those who had been companions of
the Lord during his public ministry. In self-defence, he alRrms that,
in conversations with ihe pil/ars, as some called Peter and James and
John — three of the oldest apostles — he did not receive a new idea. So
far from being dependant on Peter, or inferior to him, he was the only
apostle in those days with whom Paul had the slightest dissension :
" for," says he, " after Peter came down to Antioch 1 withstood him to
the face, for he was to be blamed: for before certain persons came from
James, he did eat with the Gentiles; but when they were come, he
withdrew and separated from ihem, fearing the Jews. And the other
Jews dissembled likewise with him, insomuch that Barnabas was car-
ried away with their dissimulation. Seeing that they walked not up-
rightly, I said to Peter in the presence of them all ; " Why do you com-
pel the Gentiles to live as do' the Jews ]" Thus Paul reproved the
head of the church, his father, pope Peter, in the presence of all the
brethren for a sort of temporizing expediency in its practical details,
squinting at dissimulation. All these facts show how contrary to the
doctrine and facts of the sacred writings are the assumptions of
popery.

A word or two from the last will and testament of the apostle Peter.
Being far advanced in years he writes two letters containing his last
advice to the brethren. In the first he associates himself with the el-
ders of the Jewish church, and claims no other eminence than that of
fellow elder, and as such exhorts them to feed the flock of God wil-
lingly. In the second letter, he wills, that the brethren addressed,
"should, after his decease, be mindful of the commandment of ms, the
apostles of the Lord and Savior." Thus, with his last words, he dis-
claims every attribute of ofiicial supremacy. He is known only in the
New Testament, as an apostle, either from his own words simply, or
those of Paul, or from any other circumstance, which in the history of
the church is recorded from Pentecost to the end of the New Testa-
ment. I shall leave other scriptures for the calls of my opponent, and
the occasion.

I now proceed to show that as there is no" foundation in scripture,
so there is none in fact, nor in reason, for the papal supremacy. I
have shown, that it wants />o«Vzi'e proof — that it is built on inference —
that this inference is not found in the premises — and that other scrip-
tural facts and documents preclude the possibility of such an inference.

We have emphatically stated, that the first point is to establish the

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELTGIOX. 99

office. If there is no office, there can he no officer. But my friend the
hishop's system is still more at fault, for if he could prove (what he
never will) that there was such an office ; still he has to prove that
Peter was the first officer. — That Peter was that officer is as cardinal
a point to his system, as that the papal office had been set up by Jesus
Christ. The Scriptures are perfectly )nute on that point ! What says
church history % It is only inferred that Peter ever ivas in Rome! It
is only probable. Barronius only says it is probable he had a see
there : he does not moot that question. There is not a single word in
all antiquity which positively asserts that Peter was ever bishop of Rome,
or was ever in Rome. The gentleman quoted Ircnajus. Can he quote
the original 1 I affirm that it does not exist : and even the copy from
which he read was not found for centuries after Irenaeus wrote. But
admit it to be genuine. I affirm that Irenaeue no where asserts, that Pc
tcr was bishop of Rome. If neither he nor his contemporaries assert it,
what is the authority of Grotius, or Casaubon, or Usher or such mod-
ern authors ? ! It proves nothing. The assertion of my present opponent
is worth as much as that of any man who has lived for a thousand years,
to prove an event which happened a thousand years before he was
born.

The bishop and his friend the editor of the Catholic paper and at
least fifteen hundred citizens heard me lecture when last in the city;
and yet, so faithless is tradition, that I have seen it stated in a print
of this city — in a Roman Catholic Telegraph, too, that I had asserted
as a proposition to be proved, " that Charles Carroll, of Carrollton was
not a Roman Cntholic /" — words that never fell from my lips or pen.
If then tradition cannot be kept here for a single week, in this day of
light and knowledge, and good faith, how can you respect and believe
traditions descending through ages of darkness and superstition 1 —
why bring up men from the remote corners of the earth, who lived
more than a century after the time in question, to tell us their hearsays
or the rumors of pant ages-

I have affirmed, that there is no document to prove that Peter was
ever bishop of Rome. My friend disputes this point; we are then at
issue, and this is a vital point. Let him then meet me upon it, and
decide the controversy. Irenaeus says not, that either Peter or Paul
was bishop of Rome ; but, " over that church that was planted by Peter
and Paul sat Linus." True, the inference is, that Peter and Paul must
have been at Rome; if not, how believe that the oluirch was jilanted
by thernl But the c.hurcii at Rome 7U'ver was plunled by them. The
faith of the Romans was known through all the earth when Paul wrote
his letter to them, and at that time ho had never been in that city. The
proposition is therefore not true; and Ircnasus, if he wrote so, wrote
on erroneous tradition, and is not worthy of credit. Admit, for argu-
ment sake, that we take the testimony of the fathers on the succession,
which are we to believe 1 They tell us stories irreconcilably dif-
ferent. The gentleman trium))haiitly held up a map, as if there were
some hidden virtue in it, and said lie could sp(!ak \\\mw it till dooms-
day. I have also a map here, which will prove that his map can
prove nothing without a tongue in it; and if holding up this map be-
fore you could convince you, I should soon carry the point. Bellar-
mine admits, that the fathers contradict each other on the succession of
the first popes. A phalanx of authors can be adduced to prove tiiat the

100 DEBATE ON XnE

fathers are not unanimous upon any one point of importance, on that
or any other dofrma of tlic papacy.

Divine authority canuot exist, but in the holy oracles : against any
other pretended infallible standard, all men should protest. The
fathers agreed in bearing testimony to the scriptures, as far as they
individually knew them ; hut their unanimous consent on any thing
else has not yet been found.

Justin Martyr, for example, proves my interpretation of the 16th
ch. Matthew, on the roch. He is one of the primitive fathers. He
gives substantially the sanie views of that whole passage as I
have adduced here. Now it is impossible for my opponent to find a
unanimous consent of the fathers with Iiim, as I have Justin Martyr,
of the second century, and many others, with me. My standing argu-
ment, on the consent of the fathers, is this:

I find many of the fathers unequivocally agreeing with me. These,
therefore, must express the unanimous consent, if there be any ; for it can-
not be unanimous loilhout them. Now, if there be no unanimous consent,
the Bomanists build upon a false foundation ,- and if there be, they build
on a false foundation ; for wc have that consent, not they.

But this unanimous consent fails in the succession. Admitting that
Peter was first bishop of Rome, no living man can tell whether Linus
or Clement was the second bishop of Rome. The ancients do nob
agree upon that point. Tertullian makes Clement second bishop, and
others make Linus. I have a chart, in Eusebius, which differs from
his own history in various points. I have other charts and indexes
that place the bishops of Rome in a dilTcrent order. Eusebius does
not place Peter first; nor do any of the fathers. He places Linus first,
then Clitus, then Clement. Another tells us, that Peter was first, then
Linus, tlien Clement. A fourth, perhaps, on the authority of the last»
places Peter first and Clement second. — [Time expired.}

Half past 10 o'chcl; .i. M.
Bishop Purcell rises —

It is well, beloved friends, to keep our eyes upon the polar star,
when once we have embarked upon the sea of controversy. The
polar star of this question, is the attempted disproof, by my learned
friend, of the Roiuan Catholic claim, to be the holy, apostolic, catholic
church. He was pledged to show her to be an apostacy from the only
true church. Has he proved this ] Is there one intelligent man in
this assembly prepared to answer this question in the afiSrmativel
I asked, from what church was she an apostacy ? He told us that she
had apostatized in the year 1051. But he has not yet told us what
or where was the one true holy and apostolic cliurch from wliifh she
seceded. There was a good reason for it: no other catholic church
existed at the epoch indicated, but ours, the Roman Catholic. We
•were then taken to the year 250, or some- time thereabout. These
were indefinite words ; and I ask again what and where was the true
church from which she apostatized in 250 ? Has ho informed you 1
we were referred to the Novatians — and a Protestant church historiaa
Mosheim, tells us —

[Mr. Campbell here called Bishop Purcell to order as not speaking
to the point; the moderators decided that he was in order and he pro-
ceeded.] The gentleman cannot confuse me by these interruptions.

ROHAN CATHOLIC EELIGION. 101

My eye is on the star. I say, that Mosheim, a Protestant ecclesiasti-
cal historian tells us that the Novatians embraced essential errors. I
have quoted from that historian, for this sect and all other prominent
sects, to the beirinning' of the 16th centurj'. They taught some doc-
trines which Catholics, and some, which Protestants hold. They
taught some errors which Catholics and Protestants agree to reject —
they taught disorganizing doctrines, which armed the civil power
both Catholic and Protestant against them — and these doctrines, Ca-
tholics and Protestants mutually abhor. They were not then united,
pure, or apostolic. They were not the church of Christ. The ques-
tion then reverts upon us — which was the church of Christ, from
■which the Roman Catholic church separated in the 3d century 1

I now come at once to the last speech of the gentleman. — I have
already agreed that this controversy is resolvible into two or three
grand principles — and by the discussion of these we may succeed
in ascertaining their ulterior consequences. If true that Christ has
established a head of the Church on earth, it follows that Ave must
recognize that liead. So far we are right. If Peter was made that
head, we are right. If Peter was to have successors, we are right.
If that succession was to last to the end of time, we are right, for
we hold these propositions to be irrefragable. If on the contrary,
these propositions could be satisfactorily proved to be untrue, the
Catholics would be wrong.

I have proved the first of these, viz. that Peter was made the head
of the church, by Christ, from scripture. And what has my friend
discovered to weaken the force of the numerous and strong texts I
have adduced, — the rock, the keys, the feeding of the lambs, and of
the sheep whom the lambs are wont to follow, the prayer of Christ
that Peter's faith should never fail, the charge given liim by Christ
to confirm his brethren, his confession of the divinity of Christ be-
fore the other apostles, and the Blessedness pronounced on him for
that confession by Clirist, the deference shewn him — the poor illiterate
fisherman, by Paul, imbued with the subiimest lessons of the Law at
the feet of fjamaliel, foe. foe. 7 Why In- says : " Peter, lovcst thou me
more than these fish !"

My friends, I know not how to treat this interpretation seriously.
But since the gentleman is so curious an interpreter, let ns sec if the
text will bear him out. After the miracle of the draught of fishes,
the apostles, at Christ's invitation, proceeded to some (tistance from
their nets and barks, for the purpose of dining. It is natural to sup-
pose they selected, for dinner, no more of the fish they had taken,
than they would probably eat. ('an my friend say that after they had
dined there were any f>f the cooked fish remaining? Tlirre might have
been some bones left on the table ; but would Christ puinl to these
fish bones, and say, Peter, lovest thou more than llicsr? What a ques-
tion for (Christ to ask his leading disciple! Surely such an inter-
pretation is absurd. IJiit what is the voice of antiquity 1 IMy friend
saya that Justin brarH him out in bis inter|)relalion. \Vill iriy friend
point out the passage in that father's works ? Will he say that it is the
principal sensr-, the sense that father approves ? I j)ledge myself he will
not pretend to do so while refutation is near. Now if scripture is so
very clear, and this meaning as obvious as Mr. C. supposes, is it
not strange that this light should beam upon us to day for the first
1 2

102 DEBATE ON THE

time 1 'riie gentleman charges me with having dared to change the
gender of the word signifyinfr ihesc, from neuter to masculine. Does
he not know that the word Tcwrarv is both masculine and neuter? It is
generally applied to persons, though I do not deny that it may be ap-
plied to things. The Greek therefore leaves us as much in the dark
as ever.

We find a ])arallol passage in the new Testament. " He that loveth
father and mother >unrc than mc is not worthy of me." Matth. x. 37.
Here the words are Cme i/ui (more than me), i/ut is in the accusative
case — Tovrm is in the genitive case. But, my friends, this has nothing
to do with the question at issue ; it does not make for or against my
argument, whether we adopt tlie natural, or the gross interpretation.
Christ said to Peter, " lovest thou «ie." He demands an assurance of
his faithful attachment. Peter three times replies in the affirmative,
and thrice the command is repeated to him, " feed my lambs," " feed
my sheep." The argument is entirely independent of either con-
struction referred to. Hence I maintain that Peter was established,
head of the church by Jesus (^hrist. The " rock," the " keys," the
prayer, the prophecy of the place and manner of Peter's death, which
we read in the same chapter, all prove it.

The gentleman says that a doctrine should be so clear, that it could
not possibly be contested. This is really too soft for a man of Mr.
C.'s strong mind. What is there so clear that it could not possibly be
contested. Does not the universe tell as clearly as Genesis, that God
created the heavens and the earth, and is not that contested 1 What
doctrine more clearly revealed in the bible, or more important than
the divinity of Christ? and is not that contested? and by one of the
most learned societies of christians in the United States, I mean the
Unitarians. They read the bible and they think it impiety and blas-
phemy to call Jesus Christ God !

It was essential in the Jewish institution that there should be a high
priest. If the old institution was a type of the new, where is the
anti-type ? And if the headship of the high priest of the Jews dero-
gated not from the authority of God the Father, who was pleased to
be their special ruler, neither does the headship of the pope derogate
from the supreme authority of God the Son, Jesus Christ, who acquir-
ed the church by his blood and established Peter its visible head on
earth, to exercise the office during his natural life, and by his succes-
sors for ever.

My friend flies from scripture to tradition, and from a father of the
early age to a modern historian. I will pledge myself to this en-
lightened assembly that the supremacy of Peter and of Peter's suc-
cessors in the Roman see can be abundantly attested by an appeal to
tradition : and I may here observe that Baronius has been misrepre-
sented. He does not say it is not improbable that Peter fixed his see at
Rome — of this he knew there was no doubt ; but that it was not im-
probable he fixed his see there by the express command of Christ,
which is, the intelligent hearer will perceive, quite a different propo-
sition. Peter acted as the other apostles did, under the guidance of in-
spiration, in the choice of the scene of his pastoral toils; but Baronius
thinks it not improbable that Christ eocpressly commanded him to se-
lect Rome for his — There he could " teach all nations." Mr. C.
asserts that for a thousand years there is not a voice heard to attest

ROMAN CATHOUC RELIGION. 103

this fact. My friends, not one voice, but five Iiundred attest it. There
is one loud chorus of testimony among the fathers and historians,
giving almost universal consent to the doctrine. Some obscure indi-
viduals may have doubted, or denied it in late years. They are but
motes on the surface of the overwhelming stream of testimony. Again
my friend went back to the bible. He read of the high priest — but he
cannot open the bible without seeing his own refutation written there —
almost the first words that struck my ears were, the dresses and anoint-
ing of the priests. Where are such things done among Protestants 1
Do they not make void the scriptures 1 Anointing the clergy and the
sick, — commanded by the bible — rejected by Protestants — superseded
by the fashions of the day ! Again : Aaron was separated that he should
bless and sanctifj* — and yet if the pope bless or sanctify, he is an im-
pious assumer of what belongs to God alone !!

The case of Korah, Dathan and Abiram was mentioned. God re-
ally appears to me to extort from the adversaries of his church the
most striking proof of her authority, vindicated in the Type, from
the sacrilegious contradictions of the schismatics of the old law.
The ground opened and swallowed them up ! So have all the sects,
that in the early ages opposed the church, perished. Th« grave has
hidden their guilt from the earth, too happy if they bear not its pen-
alty in the world that expands beyond the grave ! Again 250 priests
perished for opposing the ordinance of God ! the ecclesiastical guide
he had appointed !

My friend asks, if the headship of Peter and his successors were
as certainly divine as the high priesthood of the old law, would it not
have been established by proof as plain? Why, he emphatically de-
manded, cannot the Roman pontiff, like Aaron, shew his authority by
an equally convincing miracle *? My friends, I take the gentleman at
his word. He that has eyes to see let him see. Has not God wrought
a similar miracle — I will fearlessly say — a far more splendid miracle,
to attest the preeminence of the see of Peter 1 Has not the night of
Mahommedanism and infidelity thrown its sable pall over the once
flourishing churches of Africa and Asia 1 Has not the bright light of
the gospel become extinct in the most celebrated of the sees founded
by the other apostles — Crete, Corinth, Ephcsus, Antioch, Alexandria,
Philippi, Jerusalem 1 Where is the hymn of praise to Christ inton-
ed, the voice of pure confession heard, the tabernacle of the tes-
timony seen in any of these famous churches, where St. Paul had
formed such a multitude of adorers in spirit and in truth 1 which he
Tisited with so much solicitude, prayed for with so much fervor, and
loved with so much tenderness. Returning to visit these churclies,
not on the following day as Moses did the rods of the twelve triiies,
but after eighteen himdred years, we see that the rod of Aaron, the
church formed by the high priest appointed by Jesus Christ in the
New Law, has b\idded ami blossomed, and produced fruit of which
all the nations havo participated, while the churches formed by the
other apostles have been stricken with a melancholy sterility, and
have utterly withered ! 'I"he murmuring of the children of Israel
against Moses and Aaron ceased when they beheld the prodigy rela-
ted in the book of Numbers ; is it too much to expert that we will be
leas insensible to an efjually autbenlic declaration in favor of tho
church and pontiff, the special objects of the divine protection and
care?

104 DEBATE 0:V THE

When Pius, VI. died at Valence, in France, it was said that quick
lime was thrown on his corpse, that no vestige of it might remain, and
infidelity boasted that Christianity was buried in the same grave with
its pontiff. But a successor was soon beheld to ascend into the chair
of Peter — alas ! he too, is doomed to suffer contumely for the name of
Jesus. He is seized with violence, by a ruthless soldiery, and car-
ried off from Rome, an exile and a prisoner, to Fontainebleau. The
doom of his persecutor is written : he is precipitated from the giddy
heights of his ambition, and the meek, but invincible heir of Peter's
sacred power, contrary to all human foresight, is reinstated by a Pro-
testant government, by 30,000 Protestant bayonets, in the peaceful ex-
ercise of his duties, as the chief pastor of the Catholic world. Eng-
land, with all thy faults I love thee still. You are Protestants, but
you can be just. Rome, changeless amid change, Rome, free among
the dead, unaffected by earthly revolutions, by earthly conquests un-
subdued, why have the nations raged, ond the people devised vaia
things against thee ] The Lord is thy protector still. He hath won-
derfully sustained thee, amidst all the vicissitudes of human institu-
tions. " He that dwelleth in heaven," to use the language of the
Psalmist, " hath laughed at them that stood up against thee, and the
Lord shall deride them." My friend would call it ^^ morbid" in England,
to sympathise with the Catholics, as he has called your generous sym-
pathies fdr your persecuted fellow-citizens ; but it is not morbid, it ia
magnanimous, it is just to confess an error, to abjure an unfounded
prejudice, and to side with the wrongfully oppressed.

I quoted scripture to prove that Christ was the corner stone, on
which the whole building securely rests — and that Peter is the rock of
the foundation, deriving whatever strength it has thus exhibited from
Christ. There is no contradiction in this. I am compelled to follow the
zigzag course of my friend. The reader of the printed controversy will
be at no loss to bring together the diverging rays of evidence and to find
my answers to objections, where they may be, apparently out of place.

There is no distinction of persons in Syriac. In Greek it is once
TTttrfo;, and again 5r;)T/)a — but this change of gender is merely to
avoid a repetition of the same word in the same sentence. This is
reason sufficient, to account for the difference. I give my friend thanks
for proving that Peter was not Satan. It is the correct reading, and
therefore, I agree with his interpretation of the text; when Christ saya
to Peter, " get thee behind me Satan," that is you, who differ from
me on this particular subject. This text has been much abused.

Again : Peter did think, that he loved .Tesus more than the rest, and
Christ knew that he did. Do you remember, my friends, the scene
which took place shortly before the Savior suffered ? When he told his
apostles, with a holy melancholy on his sacred heart, that one of them
would betray him — that the shepherd should be stricken, and the sheep
dispersed ? Ah ! is there not something in the noble hearted enthusi-
asm of Peter, which is at once the cause of his offence and its pallia-
tion ? " Although all shall be scandalized in thee, yet not I." This
proves an impulsiveness, an ardor, and a strength of attachment to the
person of Christ, which Peter, too confidently it may be, but yet sin-
cerely, believed to be greater than the other disciples felt for their di-
vine master.

Jesus knew this, but he warns him not to be presumptuous. " Amen,

ROMAN CATHOLIC REMGION. 105

I say to thee, to-day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice,
thou Shalt deny me thrice," Mark xiv. 30. From this, and other texts,
Peter's ardor, and the Savior's knowledge of his confidence in his own
steadfastness are perfectly plain. Why, then, deny them both 1

I quoted the vulgate, not through ignorance of Greek, on which I
have shewn as much knowledge as my friend; but not to boast of a
little learning on the words, riAw-v tou7*.v. The Greek, the Latin, and the
English, as verbal criticism is necessary to elucidate the meaning of
the text, are by a singular coincidence, in this case, equally ambigu-
ous. How can an unlettered Protestant understand the text?

The popes do not claim to be lords, spiritual, and temporal. But
very few of them exercised any temporal power beyond the limits of
their own principality, where they rule, as Gibbon told you, by the
voice of a free people whom they have redeemed from slavery. Their
throne is established in the affections of their people, who, with rea-
son, prefer their pontiff's mild sway to kingly usurpation — the crosier,
to the sceptre. The popes have never taken the title of kings of Rome.
I can shew from Waddington and Southey, both Protestant histori-
ans of the church, that through centuries of darkness and doubt and
civil commotion, while the Turk was ravaging the southern regions of
Europe and the northern hordes were pouring down in swarms from
their ice-bound regions, desolating the blooming fields, and destroying
all that was useful and beautiful of the works of civilization, the pope
was the only savior of Europe, from their barbarian ravages. He
gave to science and to letters the only refuge which could then have
availed them — the refuge of an altar — and the now calumniated monks
who reproduced in more auspicious times, the intellectual ray. They
handed us the works of the sages, and heroes, the poets, historians
and oratorS of Greece and Rome across the isthmus of the " dark ages"
60 called. They preserved for us a better gift — the Bible.

Benefits conferred by the church. — " Yet should we be very unjust to the Roman
Catholic church, if we bhould allow it to be supposed, that she opened no recep-
tacles, for the nurture of true excellence; that in her ecncral institutions, espe-
cially in her earlier age, she has overlooked the iiioraT necessities of man — the
truth is far otherwise. We have repeatedly observed, how commonly, in seasons
of barbarism, religion was employed in supplying the defects of civil government
aad diffusing consolation and security. The lYuce of God mitigated the fury
of private warfare, by limiting the hours o( vengeance, and interposing a space
for the operation of justice and humanity. The nauie of the church was associated
with peace; aiid it was a prouder position, than when she trampled on the necks
of kings, (what she never did by the bye as I shall prove.) The emancipation of
the Serfs was another cause, equally sacred, in which her exertions were rc-
peatetlly emnloyed. In her jnlerff rence in the concerns of monarchs and nations,
she frequently appeared as the advocate of the weak, and the adversary of arbi- .
trary power. Kven the much abused law of Asylum served through a long pe-
riod, as a check on b;u-onial oppression, ralher than an encouragement to crime.

The duty of charity, during the better ages of the church, was by no means
neglected by the secular clergy, while it was the practice and office of the mo-
nastic establishments. And even fh<: discipline, so strictly inculcated by the
earlier prelates, however arbitrary in its exercise, and jieniicious in its ahii.te,
was not unprofitable in arresting the first steps, and restraining tlif earliest dis-
positions to sin. Confession and penance, and the awful censures of Ihe church,
when dispensed with discretion, must have been potent instruini ntx for the im-
provement of uncivilized society." Wiiddinirton's f'hunh Mist. luirre 5-lfi, New
Vork edit. \m',. ^ ^ ^

We now come to the word Kkx^h (cleros,) which the gentleman
says means lot and not clergy. f,ot does mean the whole people of

106 DrUATK ON THK

GocJ — rlernry and laity. Now if tlie apostle could not lord it over the
vhole ])eople, he could iiotlord it over the clergy. 'Die pope does not lord
it over the consciences of either clergy or laity — he believes as they do.

'J'he apostles sent Peter and .John to Samaria. Peter and John
probably offered themselves for the early mission — Peter, to whom
God had given superior power — and John, who had leaned on the bo-
som of Jesus at supper — both pre-eminent apostles, to confirm the peo-
ple of Samaria.

No man can read the New Testament attentively without seeing, at
almost every page, the evidence of Peter's divinely appointed and ac-
knowledged primacy ; or the history of the church, without every
where discovering the primacy of his successors. Not one council
has been received that the pope did not approve. His approbation is
in the last resort, the only certain test of a council's orthodoxy.

Peter spoke first in the council at Jerusalem. Peter was justly re-
primanded by Paul. The very fact of Paul mentioning his boldness
on this occasion, confirms the fact of Peter's supremacy. So did Ire-
neeus remonstrate with pope Victor in the controversy of the Quarto-
decimans — about the time of observing the Easter — and the pope's
sentiments prevailed — although Irenanis' dissuasive did good. So did
the controversy about re-baptization terminate between St. Cyprian
and the popes Cornelius and Stephen. The popes' decision was every
where received.

Now Paul himself did the same for which he blamed Peter. He
knew and prized the freedom with which Christ had made him free,
yet he says, " If meat scandalize my brother, I will not eat it forever."

He vainly persists in saying there is no good ground for asserting that
Peter was ever in Rome, after all the proof I have adduced. Here is
Robinson's Calrnet, a Protestant dictionary of the Bible, a stan'dard work
in Protestant libraries. Calraet was a Iloman Catholic. He was a prodigy
of learning and ancient literature — and Robinson, a Protestant divine,
thought he could not furnish a better gift to the public than this book.

" It the reader wishes to see the evidence from antiquity, on which Peter's
having been at Rome rests, he will find it fully set forth by Lardner, who con-
cludes his inquiry as follows : This is the general, uncontradicted, disinterest-
ed testimony of ancient writers in the several parts of the world, Greeks, Lat-
ins, Syrians. As our Lord's prediction concerning the death of Peter, is record-
ed in one of the four Gospels, it is very likely that christians would observe the
accomplishment of it, which must have been in some place. And about this
place, there is no diflerence among christian writers of ancient times. Never
any other place was named besides Rome; nor did any other city, ever glory in
the martyrdom of Peter. It is not for our honor, nor for our interests, either
Bs christians or Protestants, to deny the truth of events ascertained by early and
.well attested tradition. If any make an ill use (as /le calls it) of such facts, we
are not accountable for it. We are not, from a dread of such abuses, to over-
throw the credit of all history, the consequence of which would be fatal." Rob-
inson's Calmet.p. 74L

The gentleman has said that not one voice has attested the fact of
the succession of the Roman see for a thousand years. I have quoted
Eusebius, a Greek father of the fourth century, translated by a Pro-
testant minister, a splendid work. Here is a list of 29 bishops who
sat in the chair of St. Peter, all of whom he names in the body of the
work; also the succession in the churches of Jerusalem, Antioch,
Rome, Laodicea, &c.

Of St. Peter.

(Simon Magus) " entering the city of Rome, by the co-operation of that ma-

ROMAN CATHOLIC BELIGION. 107

lignant spirit which had fixed its seat there, his attempts v.ere soon so far suc-
cessful, as to be honored as a god, with the erection of a statue by the inhabitants
of that city. This, however, did not continue long; for immediately under the
reign of Claudius, by the benign and gracious providence of God, Peter, that
powerful and great apostle, who, by his courage took the lead of all the rest, was
conducted to Nome against this pest of mankind. He, like a noble commander
ofGod, fortified with divine armor, bore the precious merchandise of the re-
vealed light from the East to those in the West, announcing the liglit itself,
and salutary docrine of the soul, the proclamation of the kingdom of God." —
Book II. chap. 14, page 64.

Of Linus.

"After the martyrdom of Paul and Peter, Linus was the first that received the
episcopate at Rome." — Book III. chap. 2, page 82.

Anaci.etds.

"After Vespasian had reigned about ten years, he was succeeded by his son
Titus; in the second year of whose reign, Linus, bishop of the church of Rome,
who had held the olBce about twelve years, transferred it to Anacletus." — Chap.
13, page 100.

CLE.ATENT.

" In the twelfth year of the same reign, (Domitian's,) after Anacletus had
been bishop of Rome twelve years, he was succeeded by Clement."— Chap. 15,
page 100.

EUARESTUS.

" In the third year of the above mentioned reign (Trajan's,) Clement, bishop
of Rome, committed the episcopal charge to Euarestus." — Chap. 34, page 120.

Alex.\xder.

" About the twelfth year of the reign of Trajan, after Euarestus had

completed the eighth year as bishop of Rome, he was succeeded in the episcopal
of&ce by Alexander." — Book TV. chap. 1, page 128.

XVSTUS.

" But in the year of the same (Adrian's) reign, Alexander, bishop of Rome,
died, having completed the tenth year of his ministrations. Xystus was his suc-
cessor." — CTiap. 4, page 130.

Telespiiorus and Hyginus.

" In the first year of this (Antonine's) reign, and in the eleventh j-ear of his
episcopate, Telesphorus departed tliis life, and was succeeded in the charge of
the Roman church by Hyginus." — Chap. 10, page 137.

PiUS.
" But Hyginus dying after the fourth year of his office, Pius received the
episcopate." — Chap. 11, page 138.

Amcetus.
"And Pius dying at Rome in the fifteenth year of his episcopate, the church
there was governecl by Anicetus." — Ibid, page 138.

.'ioTER.
'• If was in the eighth year of the above mentioned reign, viz. that of Verus,
that Anicetus, who held the episcopate of Rome for eleven years, was succeeded
by Soter." — Chap. 19, page 156.

ErXUTHERUS.
" Soter, bishop of Rome, died after having held the episcopate eight years. Ha
was succeeded by Elcuthcrus, the twelfth in order from the apostles." — Book V.
Prelim, page 168.

Victor.
" In thn tenth yrar of the reign of C'ommoduf", Eleutherus, who had held the
episcopate for thirteen years, was succeeded by Victor." — Chap. 22, page 206.

Zephyrinus.
"But after this author (Victor,) had superintended the rhurrh, Zepliyrinus was
appointed his successor about the ninth year of the reign of Severus." — Chap.
28, page 214.

Cai-i.isthus and Urpanus.
" In the first yj-ar of the latter (Antonine's n ign,) Zephyrinus the bishop of
Rome, departed thin life, ofter having rhargc of the church eigiitcen years. He
was succeeded in the episcopate by Cullittliui, who survived bim five years, and
left the church to Urbanus.— Chap. 21, page 242.

108 DKBATE OX THE

PONTIANUS.

" Whilst this was the state of tilings, Urban, wlio liad been bishop of Rome
eightyears, was succeeded by Poiitiaiius." — Chap. 23, page 243.

Anteuos and Fabianus.
"Gordian succeeded IMaxiimis in tlic sovereignty of Rome, when Pontifinus
who had held the episcopate six years, was succeeded by Anteros in the church
of Rome; he also is succeeded by P'libianus." — Chap. 29, page 248.

Cornelius.
" Decius .... raised a persecution against the church, in which Fabianus
suffered martyrdom, and was succeeded as bishop of Rome by Cornelius." —
Chap. 39, page 254.

Lucius and Stephen,
"After Cornelius had held the episco|>al otVice at Rome about three years, he
was succeeded by Lucius, but the latter did not hold the office quite eight
months, when dying he transferred it to Stephen." — Book VIL chap. 2, page

Stephen and Xystus IL
" But after Stephen had held the episcopal office two years, he was succeeded
by Xystus." — Chap. 5, page 273,

DioNYsrus.
" Xystus had been bishop of Rome eleven years, when he waa succeeded by
Dionysius."— Chap. 27, page 302.

Feijx.
" Dionysius, who had been bishop of Rome for niue years, was succeeded by
Felix."— Chap. 30, page 308.

EurycHiANTjs, Caius, and Marcelt mus.
*' At this time Felix, having held the episcopate at Rome five years, was suc-
ceeded by Eutychianus, and he did not hold the office quite ten months, when he
left his place to be occupied by Caius of our own day. Caius, also, presided
about fitteen years, when he was succeeded by Marcellinus." — Chap. 32, page 310.

Miltiades.

" Constantine Augustus, to Miltiades bishop of Rome." — Book X. chap. 5.
page 429.

i need only refer to what I have read from this authentic historian
for splendid and indisputable proof. Here is the succession equally
plain in all the churches, but longest hi Rome. Thence it has been
faithfully noticed, and regularly perpetuated in an uninterrupted chain
of pontiffs down to the present chief pastor, auspiciously presiding
over all the church.

Now, my friend, in the name of God what is to become of this con-
troversy, when testimony like this is overlooked] And to close the
testimony of Eusebius who has embodied that of the preceding ages,
so as to leave no doubt, that the same identical doctrines, the present
organization, orders and sacraments of the Catholic church were those
of the first ages of Christianity, and heresy too the same then that it now
is. I crave your attention for one of the most instructive chapters
that could possibly be read on a subject of such absorbing interest to
the Christian.

OJ" J^'ovalus, his manners and hahils, and his heresy.

About this time appeared Novatus (j\ovati;in) a presbyter of the church of
Rome, and a man elevated with haughtiness against these (tiiat had fallen), as if
there was no room for theni to hope salvation, not even, if they performed every
thing for a genuine and pure confession. He thus became the leader of the pe-
culiar heresy of those who, in the pomp of their imaginations, called themselves
Cathari. A ver}' large counril beiugli' Id on account of this, at which sixty in-
deed of the bishops, but a still greater number of prchbyters and deacons were
present ; the pastors of the remaining provinces, accordmg to their places, deli-
fcerated separately what should be done: this decree was passed by all; "That
Novatus, indeed, and those who so arrogantly united with him, and those that
Lad determined to adoptive uncharitable and most inhuman opinion of the man,

KOMA?f CATHOLIC RELIGION. 109

these they considered among those that were alienated from the church; but
that brethren who had incurred any calamity, should be treated and healed with
the remedies of repentance."

There are also epistles of Cornelius, bishop of Rome, addressed to Fabius, bi-
shop of Antioch, which sliow the transactions of the council of Rome, as also,
the opinions of all those in Italy and Africa, and the regions there. Others there
are also written in the Roman tongue, from Cyprian, and the bishops with him in
Africa. In these, it is shewn that they also agree in the necessity of relieving
those who had fallen under severe temptations, and also in the propriety of ex-
communicating the author of the heresy, and all that were of his party. To
these is attached also an epistle from Cornelius on the decrees of the council,
besides others on the deeds of Novatus, from which we may add extracts, that
those who read the present work may know the circumstances respecting him.
What kind of a character IVovatus was, Cornelius informs Fabius, writing as fol-
lows: " But that you may know, says he, how this singular man, who formerly
aspired to the episcopate, and secretfy concealed within himself this precipitate
ambition, making use of those confessors that adhered to him from the beginning
as a cloak for his own folly, I will proceed to relate: Maxinius, a presbyter of
our church, and Urbanus, twice obtained the highest reputation for their con-
fessions. Sidonius also, and Celerinus, a man wlio, by the mercy of God, bore
every kind of torture in the most heroic maiiiKr, and, by the firmness of his own
faith strengthened tlie weakness of the flesh, completely worsted the adversaiy.
These men, therefore, as they knew him, and had well sounded his artifice and
duplicity, as also his perjuries and falsehoods, his dissocial and savage character,
returned to the holy church, and aiinouncfd all his devices and wickedness, which
he had for a long time dissembled within hiinself, and this too in the presence of
many bishops; and the same also, in the presence of many presbyters, and a

freat number of laymen, at the same time lamenting and sorrowing that they
ad been seduced, and had nbandoned the church for a short time, through the
agency of that artful and malicious beast." After a little, he further says : We
have seen, beloved brother, within a short time, an extraordinary conversion and
change in him. For this most illustrious man, and he who affirmed with the most
dreadful oaths, that he never aspired to the episcopate, has suddenly appeared a
bishop, as thrown among us by some machine. For this dogmatist, this (pre-
tended) champion of ecclesiastical discipline, when he attempted to seize and
usurp the episcopate not given him from above, selected two desperate characters
as his associates, to send them to some small, and that the smallest, part of Italy,
and from thence, by some fictitious ])l<a, to impose upon three bishops there, men
altogether ignorant and simple, affirming and declaring, that it was necessary for
them to come to Rome in all haste, that all the dissension which had there aris-
en might be removed through their mediation, in conjunction with the other bi-
•hopH. When thise men had come, being as before observed, but simple and
plain in discerning the artifices and villany of the wicked, and when sliut up
with men of the same stamp with himself, at the tenth hour, \vhcn heated with
wine and surfeiting, lliey forced them by a kind of shadowy and empty imposi-
tion of hands, to c;onfer the episcopate upon him, and which, though by no means
suited to him, hi: claims l^y fraud and treachery. One of tin se, not long after, re-
turned to his church, mourning and confessing his error, with whom also we com-
muned as a layman, !is all the people present interceded for )iini,and wc sent suc-
cessors to the other bishops, ordaining (hem in the place where they were. This
asjerlcr of tin; gospel then did not know that there should he but one bishop in
a catholic church.* ("' x»So>.ixi! iy.x>.i;Ti»y

• Th>) word ralliolir, in its Greek etymology, menns univcrgul, as wc )iBvo nomctimoa ox-
ptninc'l it in Ihiii trnn/ilntiiiii. It ik npiilicrl to l)in (,'liriiiliiiii, oh n iiiiiversul rhiirrh, partly
to riiitinKuiih it frcmi tlm nrii-ieiit rhiirrli of llif Jiwb, which wn» hinilerl, purlial, iiixl par-
tiriilnr in ill ihiruiioii, milijiriii iinil cuiiiilry. 'I'h'' <'hri«tian in ulxo rnllnl n uiiiviriml or
cnlholii' rlmrch, l>rinii«o it mint in rejnril to ilorlrini' lioM i/voil urmper, qnod vbiiine, quod
ab omnihut. In tin* Inllir view, whiih it kIiouIiI he well obnerved in tlie oricinnl np|iln-o-
lion. It i» rynonymoui Willi orlhodoi. 'J'liiii in iviileni, from the fiiit that our aulhcir tippling
it lo different rhiirrh''» in other pnrlii of hiii hinlory. And in the preneiit inHlunrp I ho ox-
prcmiun ii cenernl, « tntliotir thurrh. It in in n nenne allied lo lhi» nl«o, Ihni we nro, no
doubt, lo un(h'r~lanil llin till'? of our EenernI, (ralliolir) ejilNlleo. in the New TeHlamcnt.
They arc cat/tolic, heraunc an ronimnanl to the dorlrineii of the rliiirch in all rei(|Hr.t«, Ihcy
have been also universally received. In this aonie, tlio term ii nlno aynonymoua with can-
onical.

110 DEBATE ON THE

In whirl), however, he well knew, (for how coukl he be ignorant ?) that there
were t'orty-six presbyters, seven deacons, seven sub-ileacons, fortv-two acuiuthi
(clerks,) exorcists, reailers, and janitors, in all fiUy- two ; widows, with the afflicted
and needy, more than firtten-hundrcd ; all which the goodness and love of (iod
doth support and nourish. But neither this great number, so necessary in the
church, nor those that by the providence of God were wealthy and opulent, toge-
ther with the innumerable multitude of the people, were able to recall him and
turn him from such a desperate and presumptuous course." And again, after these,
he subjoins the following: " Now let us also tell by what means and conduct he
had the assurance to claim the episcopate. Whether, indeed, it was because he
was engaged in the church from the beginning, and endured many condicts for her,
and encountered many and great dangers in the cause of true religion? None of all
this. To him, indeed, the author and instigator of his faith was Satan, who enter-
ed into and dwelt in him a long time. Who, aided by the exorcists, when attacked
with an obstinate disease, and being supposed at the point of death, was baptised
by aspersion, in the bed on which he lay ; if, indeed, it be proper to say that one like
hmi did receive baptism. But neither when he recovered from disease, did he par-
take of other things, which the rules of the church prescribed as a duty, norwashe
sealed (in confirmation) by the bishop. But as he did not obtain this, liow could he
obtain the Holy Spirit V And again, soon after, he says: " He denied he was a
presbyter, through cowardice and the love of life, in the time of persecution. For
when requested and exhorted by the deacons, that he should go forth from his re-
treat, in whichhe had imprisoned himself, and shouldcome to the relief ofthc bre-
thren, as far as was proper and in the power of a presbyter to assist brethren reciuir-
ing relief, he was so far from yielding to an}' exhortation of the deacons, that he
went away offended and left them. For he said that he wished to be a presbyter no
longer, for he was an admirer of a different philosophy." After this, he add*
another deed, the worst of all the man's absurdities, thus : "For having made
the oblation, and distributed a part to each one, whilst giving this, he compels the
unhappy men to swear instead of blessing ; holding the hands of the one receiv-
ing, with both his own, and not letting them go until he had sworn in these words,
for I shall repeat the very words: ' Swear to me, by the body and blood of our
Savior, Jesus Christ, that you will never desert me, nor turn to Cornelius.'
And the unhappy man is then not suflered to taste until he had first cursed him-
self; and instead of saying Amen, after he hael taken the bread, he says, 'I will
no longer return to Cornelius." And, after other matters, he again proceeds, as
follows : " Now,3'ou must know, that he is stripped and abandoned, the brethren
leaving him every day and returning to the church. He was also excommunicat-
ed by Moses, that blessed witness, who but lately endured a glorious and wonder-
ful martyrdom, and who, whilst yet among the living, seeing the audacity and
the folly of the man, excluded him from the communion, together with the
five presbyters that had cut themselves oft" from the church." At the close of the
epistle, he gives a list of the bishops who had come to Rome, and had discarded
the incorrigible disposition of Novatus; at the same time adding the names, to-
gether with the churches governed by each. He also mentioned those that were
not present at Rome, but who, by letter, assented to the decision of the former,
adding also the names and the jjarticular cities whence each one had written.
Such IS the account written by Cornelius to Fabius bishop of Antioch. — From
pages 263-4-5-6-7 of Eusebius' Eccles. Hist, transl. by Rev. C. F. Crus6, Book
vi. chap. 43. — [Time expired.]

Half past U, J. M.
Mr. Campbeli, rises —

I have some respect, my friends, not only to the audience who hear,
but to those who may read this discussion ; and, therefore, I wish my
argument to be as continuous and unbroken as possible. I could, indeed,
wish that my ingenious and eloquent opponent would reply to my
speeches in regular sequence, and thus give more of system and tenacity
to our debate. Before I trace his zigzag course, I wish to add to my last
speech a few kindred considerations. While it behooves him to prove
that Peter was first bishop of Rome, I am gratuitously in display of my
resources, as the advocate of Protestantism, rather spontaneously prov-

nOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. Ill

ing a negative, or showing tliat Peter never was bishop of Rome. Two
considerations may be added to my remarks on this head: 1st. The
special commission, which he had to- the Jews as Paul had to the
Gentiles, precludes the idea of his here devoting himself to any por-
tion of the Gentile world. The "ministry of the circumcision" was
committed to him, and therefore not the Roman capital; but rather the
Syrian capital or Jerusalem should have been the place of his location.
2d. His commission, as apostle, precludes the idea of his being sta-
tioned as bishop at any one place. You cannot place Peter as bishop
of Rome, any more than you can make the president of the United
States mayor of Cincinnati. The duties of these officers are not more
incompatible than the duties of an apostle and a resident bishop. What
are the duties of the bishop's chair 1 Are they not to watch over a
particular diocese? What does the apostles' commission say ■? "Go
ye into all the world, and announce tiie glad tidings to the whole crea-
tion." It would be as easy to prove that the bishop of London may
be vicar of Bray, or curate of St. Ives, as that Peter was, or could be,
bishop of Rome. These two considerations deserve the attention of
my friend, and I hope that he will not pass them too in silence.

That every important office, essential to the government of any com-
munity, must have a place clearly specific in the constitution is scarce-
ly necessary to prove; yet, as my opponent seems to slur over this
matter, I shall read a sentence or two of the Constitution of the United
States, to show that in tlie estimation of its framers, it was necessary
to have a distinct assertion of the office and power of the president.

Art. II. Sect. 1. Tlie executive power shall be vested in a ['resident of the
United State>i of America. He shall hold his oflice during tl.e term of four
years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term as fol-
lows:

Sect. 2. " Kach state shall appoint, in sucli niannor as the legislature there-
of may direct, a number of electors, e(|iial to the whf)le number of senators and
repredcntatives to which the state may be entitled in the congress; but no senator
or representative, or person holding any olliee of trustor profit under the Unit-
ed States, shall be appointed an elector." 77ie American's Guide, p. 20.

Now the head of the christian church was, at least, as wise as the
convention which framed this instrument, foreseeing all the difficulties
of the church in all time, and as he was determined to make all things
plain, and certainly he was as capable as they to reveal and express
iiis own will, had tic resolved to build his church on tlie shoulder of
St. Peter, he would have unequivocally expressed it. lie would have
defined the office, appointed the first officer, and legislated the mode
of election. The practice of electing popes in the church of Rome is
a candid ackiiowledgnient that there is tio law in the case: fur tlicy
have had very diffi^rent modes at dilTerent periods of their history.
What would we Americans say, if every few years a new mode should
be adopted, without regard to the constitution 1 Would they submit
to Burh a chief magistrate 1

The gentlriiian proceeded to read and reiterate his remarks on two
passages of scripture, often bttfore us: he objects to my criticism on
the last chapter of John. His last remarks enable me to give it a
more thorough exposition. He says my construction "requires the
accusathr for Ihrsc." I say, with more of tlie philosophy of iimiruage,
his construrljoii requires the nominative. The question would have
been plainly this: "Do you love, inn more than these love me." XXwh,
it is true, always requires the genitive; but the whole construction of

112 DEBATE ON THE

the sentence would have been changed, if these were to be the nomina-
tive to the verb here understood. My construction is critically correct
as the sentence now reads, but it will not bear his construction. But
there is yet another great assumption in the quotation of this passage
on which I have not yet emphasized. He says, '■'■feed my sheep''' means,
feed my pastors, and ^^ feed my lambs^^ means, feed my Jlock. Mark the
assumption, that sheep signifies pastors, and lambs the people! Where
does he find authority for this? If "s/^«/)" any where else signified
♦' c/er/::y," and "lambs" laity, there would be some plausibility in it;
but with the absence of such usage it is supremely whimsical and
arbitrary; and yet the point of this passage rests upon the assumption
of sheep for clergy. So far he presses it into his service, for that
bishops are to feed the flock is not disputed, but that one of them is
before the others is the question in debate.

The gentleman, on Saturday, called my interpretation of this pas-
sage a fish story ; this mode of treating so holy an institution, so
solemn a matter, is not in the true dignity of the subject, nor of the
occasion ; nor is it very respectful to the great personage on whose
words we comment ; but the audience have not met it with a laugh, and
therefore I presume they felt the incongruity. In the same style are
the morning's remarks on the bones, &c. but the bishop might remem-
ber there was more in the premises than the spoils of a single meal ;
there were many fish and all the apparatus before them, but no one
would interpret the words of the question in that style on any other
occasion. It was sustenance in general, and not a particular meal,
concerning which the Savior spoke.

The gentleman suggests that, in the 1st chap, of John, Christ in his
first interview with Peter changes his name to Cephas ; and he as-
sumes " that it was that he might afterwards make him the rock of
his church !" It was a very common thing in the history of the patri-
archs and Jews to change names. Thus we find from the beginning
of their history, various instances of this: " Sarai" is changed into
Sarah; " Abram" into Mraham; "Jacob" into Israel. Two of the
apostles were called " Boanerges" sons cf Thunder ; but that did not
convert them into thunder ; neither did the name Cephas convert Peter
into a stone. If I were to give a reason for the addition to Peter's
name, (but it was neither change nor addition, rightly considered,) I
would say that it was most probably occasioned by the fact, that Daniel
spoke of the kingdom of the Messiah under the figure of « stone cut
out of the mountain. With an eye probably to this kingdom of the
stone, (as Peter was the first convert,) his name is improved by being
translated into Syriac ; for after all, it is rather a translation oi' Pctros
than an addition to it! He was, however, the beginning of this new
spiritual edifice, and a foundation stone; but only one among many.

This kingdom of the stone, it is foretold by Daniel, was to com-
mence in the days of the Cesars : but it was to become the kingdom
of the mountain. It was, indeed, to become a great mountain, and fill
the whole earth. This building is composed of a succession of foun-
dations, provided only that all the popes are successors of Peter, in
virtue of his being the rock. To have this whole building at the
foundation, or to be always laying new foundations in every election
of a pope is rather a singular idea, which grows out of the extravagance
of the Romish assumption.

ROJIAN CATHOLIC RELIGION.

113

The bishop observes that a headless trunk is worth nothing, and
would seem to think that our argument on that subject leaves the
church without a head. Has the church no other head than the popel
Of whatever church the pope is head, that church is the body of the
pope: And is it Christ's body tool The Romanists are the body of
the bishop's church — cut the head olF that body, or annul the pope's
assumption and you destroy its organization. The gentleman rightly
appreciates my argument: he feels that it makes the church of Rome
a headless trunk: but the mistake is in supposing that this annihila-
tion of the pretension annuls the church of Christ. Jesus Christ is in-
dependent of the pope. He is head ; and the saints of all ages are the
component parts of his spiritual, his mystical body.

The gentleman's allusion to the Higli Priest was peculiarly unfor-
tunate. There never was but one high priest at a time : one in hea-
ven and one on earth is without a single hint or allusion in the Bible.
We cannot now descant upon such an incongruity.

The word 'leput (Hierus) priest, occurs not once in the New Testa-
ment, in reference to christian bishops, or deacons. It is only found
once, and that in the apocalyptic style, in all the christian scriptures :
for the idea of any one officiating on the earth as a sacrificing priest, or
that christian bishops have aught of a priestly character is anti-christ-
ian. But Christ is the anti-type of Aaron. The order of Aaron is ex-
tinct. The order of Melchisidec is the model of the Christian High
Priesthood. Christ is called of God as was Aaron : but he is called
to officiate after the order of Melchisidec. The doctrine of Protestanta
is, that their High Priest made one great sacrifice for sin on earth :
and that he offered it in the heavens ; and that by one offering of him-
self, he has perfected the sanctified. " Brethren, consider the high priest
of our profession, Jesus Christ." He ever lives and ever intercedes,
and is able to save to the uttermost all that come by him to God. We,
therefore, need no high priest on earth.

The gentleman has told us too often of his love for America, and his
love for Kngland. If he repeats these declarations so often, we shall
begin to thinii he loves too much in word, and too little in fact. He
tells you of 30,000 English bayonets employed in defence of the pa-
pacy. And what of thisl Klnglaiid is the cradle of all political free-
dom. Our notions of free government were all promulgnd in English
books, and tauglil in Englisii schools before they were imported here.
We have, indeed practised upon the science of free government more
than our mother country. But as in America, we tolerate all religions :
80 the British empire in every country wlu^re she has territory or sub-
jects, supports and protects all. England tolerates every thing. She
supports (yalholicism in Canada, Fipiscopacy in England, Presbyteri-
anism in Scotland, and Paganism in the East Indies. Is she not too
free and tolerant for my opponent, and for many Protestants ? ! She
takes no part against any religion. The popular doctrine in England
at this moment is, that Church and State ought not to be amalgama-
ted, or consocialed under the same earthly head. Inderd, she is dis-
posed to follow her American children very far in this doctrine.

The bishop seems to apply to Peter what was common to all the

apostles, " VVhatHor'ver you sluill bind on-carth, shall he bound in

heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, shall i)e loosed in

heaven." I remark »ipon this passage, that when the Messiah gave

k2 15

11-4 DEBATK Oy TUE

the keys to Peter to open tlie kingdom of heaven to Jews and Gentiles,
he did not appropriate to him the solo and exclusive power of binding
and loosing: this power ho bestowed on all the apostles. For after
Peter opened the kingdom, they all introduced citizens into it, as well
as he; and had the same oflicial power; for as John says, chap. 20:
he addressed them all — "As my Father hath sent me, so do I send
you ; whose soever sins you remit they are remitted to them, and whose
soever sins you retain ihey are retained !" — This was spoken, in sub-
stance, repeatedly to them all. It is therefore asserting too much, to
say that Peter alone was gifted with this power. He only used it
first. They always exercised it in its true intent and meaning. I shall
be glad to resume again the regular order.

We have heard much about the bishops of Kome and how they can
be traced back even to Peter, &c., &c. I wish my learned opponent
would confine himself to the proposition in debate, and permit me to
go through with this argument, for succession. Then I will show of
how much value are the traditionary enumerations found in Eusebius,
from whose authors I can make out two or three successions.

The gentleman brings up the erudition of the 4th century. I would
as soon call on people in this room for testimony that the battle of Bun-
ker's hill, or Blenheim was so and so fought — noi one of whom lived
at that time; as on persons living in one century to prove what hap-
pened in centuries before they were born. In the fourth century there
is one writer testifies to the succession. What a decisive proof ! Is
there any testimony for the first ttuo hundred years affirming this suc-
cession 1 I affirm that there is not. All the tradition on earth fails
just in this radical and essential point!

Again : tradition is wholly silent on the election of the first popes.
No one pretends to tell how Peter and Linus and Clement were in-
vested with the office. Tradition is even in the hands of Catholics
ashamed to depose any thing upon this point. We all know how to
dispose of tradition three hundred years too late, in other matters; and
I think to the matter of fact people of this generation, it must appear
preposterous to prove an event by those who lived one, two, and three
hundred years after.

Irenaeus was introduced as a witness of Peter's having been bishop
of Rome : but Irenaeus does not say so on his own responsibility : for
he lived at the close of the second century. With him it was only
hear-say. Again, his testimony of the church of Rome, having been
planted by Paul and Peter is certainly false; and his saying that Poly-
carp was appointed bishop of Smyrna by the apostles, greatly weakens
his traditionary statements concerning the Roman see: for Polycarp
must have been ordained in the year 97, as he died in the year 147,
having been 50 years bishop of Smyrna. Consequently it was impos-
sible he could have been ordained by the apostles : but of this again.
While my opponent speaks so fluently of early fathers, and of the
short interval of two or three hundred years from Christ, he seems to
forget how long a hundred years is, and how few know much about
the events that happened a hundred years ago. Even now, in this age
of books and printing, and steam presses, and steam-boats, and rail-
roads, and general reading, how few of us could accurately, from me-
mory relate the history of the American Revolution ! And yet the gen-
tleman talks about the opportunities of a person to ascertain these his-

eoma:? catholic keligiox. 115

toric facets, one or two hundred years after they occurred, from tradition
too, in an age when all these facilities which we enjoy were unknown.
Is not this tradition a very loose and uncertain witness ? — [Timo
expired.]

Twelve o'clock, M.

Bishop Purcell rises —

Irenaeus lived in the second- century. He was a disciple of Poly-
carp, who was a disciple of John the evangelist. Irenajus, was bish-
op of Lyons in France. The chain of testimony consists of three links.
John the evangelist, Polj'carp of Smyrna, Irenaeus of Lyons. John
told Polycarp what Jesus did — Polycarp told Irenaeus what John had
told him, and Irenaeus hears testimony here. This edition was pub-
lished by a Protestant divine, named Nich : Gallaius. It is dedicated to
Grindalus, bishop of London ; and as I do not like to advance any thing
merely on Catholic testimony, I prefer the Protestant to the Catholic
edition of this father's works. Irenaeus distinctly says : " Since it
would be very long to enumerate in this volume the succession of bish-
ops in all the churches, by appealing to the tradition of a church the

GREATEST AND MOST ANCIENT AND KNOWN TO ALL, which WaS found-
ed and established at Rome, by the two most glorious apostles, Peter
and Paul ; a tradition which she has from the apostles, and the faith
which she announces to men, and which comes down to us through
the succession of bishops, we confound all those who in any way,
either through evil self complacency or vain glory, or blindness and
perversity gather otherwise than is meet. For with this church, on
account of her more powerful principality, it is necessary that
EVERY CHURCH AGREE, that is the faithful who are on all sides, in
which church, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved by the
faithful who are on all sides." Iren. lib. in. chap. 3, (adversus haere-
ses.)

Eusebius, has preserved for us a letter, written by the martyrs who
suffered in Gaul, in the 19th year of Antonius Verus, and who were
charged by the Pagans, as they say in their address to their fellow-
citizens in Phrygia, "with feasts ofThyestes, {who ale pari of his
own son,) and the incests of Qidipus, and such crimes as are neither
lawful for us to speak nor to think, and such indeed, as we do not be-
lieve were committed." In this document tlie martyrs commend Ire-
naeus, then a presbyter of the ciiurcli of Lyons, to pope Elculherus,
whom Irenaeus appealed to on the subject of the Quarto-deciman con-
troversy. I have this letter here in Greek. It may perhaps havo
more authority if I read the original.

Thus do wo perceive that Eleulherua was styled "father and bishop
of Rome," by these illustrious confessors of Jesus Christ, and his
favor invoked in behalf of their brother.

In book HI. chap. 3, (the title of this chapter is, of the apostolic
tradition, or the succession of bishops in the churches from tiic apos-
tles.) " These blessed apostles (Pelcr and Paul) founding and insti-
tuting the churcji, delivered the care of administering it to Linus, of
whom Paul makes mention in his epistle to Timothy. To liim suc-
ceeded Anaclclus, after whom Clement obtains the episcopacy, in
the third place from Ihf apostles, who had seen and conferred with tlio
apostles, who had heard their preaching sounding in his ears, and had

IIG DEBATE ON THE

■with his own eyes beheld their traditions. Nor was he the only one —
there were many more yet living who had been taught by the apostles.
Under this Clement, when no inconsiderable discussion occurred
amonor the brethren at Corinth, the churcli of Rome addressed to them
most forcible letters, gathering ll)em together in peace, repairing their
failh, and announcing fo them the traditions they had recently receiv-
ed from the apostles. To Clement succeeded Euaristus, and to Euaris-
tus, Alexander; next was Sextus, sixth from the apostles, and after
him Telesphorus, who also endured a most glorious martyrdom ; then
Hyginus, afterwards Pius, and after him again Anicetus. But when
Soter had succeeded Anicetus, now in the twelfth place from the apos-
tles, Eleutherus hath the episcopate." There is then the fullest matii-
festation that one and the same vivifying faith has been handed down
in the church and preserved to the present day. I would fain read
the rest of this admirable cliapter, but enough — here is the volume to
which all who are anxious for more proof are invited to refer.

Tertullian, a little later says, confounding the heretics of his day^
"let them produce the origin of their churches, let them display the
succession of their bishops, so that the first may appear to have been
ordained by an apostolic man, who persevered in their communion."
Lib. de pra;scrip. He then enumerates the pontifts from St. Peter, to
his own time in the Roman see, and concludes by the memorable
words, " Let heretics exhibit any thing like this." The evidence
of Eusehius is also before yorf. On this subject I have one remark to
make, which no one in this assembly who sincerely desires to know
the truth, and of such I trust, the number is not small, will hear with
indifference. This is, that in the letter of Cornelius, bishop of Rome,
to Fabius, bishop of Antioch concerning Novalus, which is given in
full by Eusebius, and is a faithful exhibition of the doctrines of the
whole church at that early period, there is not a single doctrine or
usage mentioned, which is not taught and observed in the Catholic
church in this very city, at this very hour. Is not this an admirable
proof of the apostolicily of our cliurch 1 The supremacy of the pope
in the supplying of vacant sees, the sacraments of the holy eucharist,
baptism, confirmation, orders, a hierarchy, bishops, priests, deacons,
subdeacons, acolytes, exorcists, readers, porters, or janitors; asylums
for the needy and afflicted — one bishop in a Catholic church ; the
right of excommunication, acquiescence of other bishops, personally
testified or by letter, in the judgment of the bishop of Rome, &c.
&c. &c. In the same letter we see heretics pictured to the life, the
errors and evil practices of some modern sectarians described and
strongly reprobated, viz : the forcing of communicants to take an oath
never to quit a church they have joined. This I know to have occur-
red in Maryland, and I presume it is not uncommon.

Three o'clock P. M.
Mr. Campbeij, rises —

The last half hour of the gentleman was spent in culling antiquity
to find some collateral evidence in attempting to defend the great point
of the succession of pontiffs ; and with v/hat success you have all seen.
His sensibility on the present occasion is truly gratifying. His con-
duct here shows that he perceives it to be vital, supremely essential
to his system to make Peterbishop of Rome, and to fix the first twen-

noKAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 117

ty nine links in the apostolic chain. But the barrenness of ancient
history cannot be remedied in the nineteenth century. He brought
forward one fragment of antiquity on the subject; and it is the only
fratnnent on which Eusebius himself relies. In truth that fragment,
the° Latin version of Irensus, is the only fragment of antiquity now-
extant, or extant in the time of Constantine, from which any thing
can be gleaned on this subject. And he never once says that either
Paul or Peter separately or jointly were bishops of the church of Roine !
And here again I cannot suppress my astonishment at the choice of
the Romanists : — Why they did not make Paul rather than Peter
bishop of Rome. In the first place he was a bachelor ; and that is
now a most cardinal point : again, he informs us that " he had the care
of all the churches." He says, moreover, that he is not behind the
chief of the apostles. This is rather disrespectful of pope Peter !
It could be so easily proved, too, that he was once at Rome (though
a prisoner for two full years.) Now, if he did not plant the church
of Rome; he certainly watered it. He labored more abundantly than
all the other apostles. Is it not then ten fold more probable that
Paul ratlier than Peter was bishop of Rome'? But probability will
not do in the case. We must have the strongest evidence : we must
have contemporary testimony : we cannot prove a fact by witnesses
who did not see it. We require the evidence of sense. We should
not believe the records of Christ's actions, even, unless wc received
them from eye and ear witnesses. To illustrate the difficulties that
environ my ingenious opponent, I will suppose a case like the one he
has to manage. Suppose that in the year one thousand, a tradition
had been current that a certain bridge over the river Tiber had been
built in the time of the apostles, and that Peter laid the corner stone
of the Roman abutment. Some incredulous persons began then to doubt
of the matter, and railed upon those who affirmed that Peter laid that
stone to prove it. They go to work. They found very many believ-
ing it in tlic 10th century : fewer in tlie 9th, fewer in tlie 8tli, fewer
in'the 7th, till witliin 200 years of thf> time, they find only one person
that affirms failli in it, and with him it is an unwritten tradition. All
record ceases. Thire is a perfect chasm of 200 years without a sin-
gle witness. Hftw shall tluy throw a bridge over this chasm?
Where is tradition during this jjcriod ? Is there not one voiced Not
ONE. But tlicy say it is only two hundred years ! But according to
all the laws of mind and society, these two hundred years should
have the most witnesses : for, the nearer wc approach any true event,
the more numerous arr; the vouchers of its nrality and authenticity.
Therefore tin; total failure of testimony during that period is fatal to
the credibility of the tradition. But they say, it was traditionary for
t^vo hundred years: but who can prove the tradition'? It is as hard
to prove this tradition as the fact! To prove the existence of it first,
and thi'u the aulhenticity of it afterwards, is only rising froni the po-
sitive to the Kuporlalive tlitficnlty. W(! can as easily build a hous(! in
the air eighteen stories high, leaving out the twf) basement stories, as
prove thr- truth of an event 1800 years old, finding a chasm of 200
years in wliieh there is not one word about it. The church of Rome
believes ni;iny miracles of her own on nu're tradition. There is a le-
gend in Ireland to this day, commonly believtd, that St. I'atrick 1200
years ago literally sailed from that connlry to Scotland oti a millstone.
Now, if we trace this back we shall find the evidence diminishes

118 DEBATE ON THE

with every century until you come within two or three centuries of
the time assigned. Then it comes to a solitary individual, who heard
some one say, that he heard another one say, that such a t)ne
dreamed so !

I think it would be well to advert more pointedly to that law of
mind, that the testimony of a fact is always best and strongest be-
cause of the number and opportunity of the witnesses at ike time, or
near the time it actually existed. For example, at this day, there are
many biographies of Washington and narratives of the revolutionary
war ; some four or five hundred years hence there Vv'ill be but one or
two. Tiiis is the established order of things. Genuine evidence
diminishes as we descend from, and increases as we ascend up to the
events, or facts recorded. All history is proof of this. It is a law
of evidence, and a law of the human mind. Therefore, had Peter
been bishop of Rome, we would, as we advanced upwards have found
much more evidence of it than in the third and fourth centuries. But
on the subject of tradition, I will gratify my audience with a few re-
marks from Du Pin : certainly he had no temptation to weaken its au-
thority.

"Criticism is a kind of torch, that lights and conducts us, in the obscurs
tracts of antiquity, by making us able to distinjfuish truth from falsehood, hisr
tory from fable, and antiquity from novelty. 'Tis by this means, that in our
times we have disengaged ourselves from an infinite number of very common
errors into which our fathers fell for want of examining things by the rules of
true criticism. For 'tis a surprising thing to consider how many spurious books
we find in antiquity; nay, even in the first ages of the church. Several reeisons
induced men to impose books upon the world, under other men's names.

The first and most general, is, the malice of heretics; who, to give the great-
er reputation to their heresies, composed several books, which they attributed
to persons of great reputation; in which they studiousl}' spread their own er-
rors, that so they might find a better reception, under the protection of these
celebrated names-. And thus the first heretics devised false gospels, false acts,
and false epistles of the apostles, and their disciples: and thus those that came
after them published several spurious books, as if they had been written by or-
thodox authors, that so they might insensibly convey their errors into the minds
of their readers, without their perceiving the chf;at.

The second reason that inclined people to favor books under other men's
names, is directly contrary to the first; being occasioned by the indiscreet piety
of some persons, who thought they did the church considerable service in forg-
ing ecclesiastical or profane monuments in favor of religion and the truth. And
this idea prevailed with some ancient christians to forge some testimonies in be-
half of the christian religion, under the name of the Sibyls, Jilercurius Tris-
megistus, and divers others: and likewise induced the Catholics to compose
some books, that they might refute the heretics of their own times with the
greatest ease. And lastly: the same motion carried the Catholics so far, a* to
invent false histories, false miracles, andfalse lives of the saints, to keep up the
piety of the faithful. . .

The third reason of the forgery of some books, keeps a middle way between
those we have already mentioned; for there have been some persons in the
world, that have been guilty of this imposture, without any other design, than
to divert themselves at the expense of their readers, and to try how nearly they
could imitate the style of other men. Hence it is, that some authors have com-
posed treatises under St. Cyprian's, St. Ambrose's and Si. Jlustin's names —
• * * » * - desiring rather (as the Abbot of Billi says,) to ap-
pear abroad, and be esteemed under other men's names than to continue despis-
ed, and be buried in darkness, by writing in their own. And these are the rea-
sons that may have occasioned tlie forgeryof books; malice, indiscreet piety,
and the humors of men.

But besides these reasons that have advanced this trade of forgery, there are

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 119

seTeral others that have occasioned the setting- authors' names to several books,
which they never writ.

'Tis very ill clone to conclude that such a book is spurious, because it pinch-
es us, and afterwards to starch for reasons why it may be thought so." [Pj-e-
face,p. G, 7.

We select only one of all these judicious and weighty remarks,
from one of the most learned of Roman Catholics, viz. '■'■that the Cath-
olics themselves have invex\ted false histories, false miracles, and
FALSE LIVES OF THE SAINTS," to promote piety in their own members,
from which I emphatically ask the question : What is an article of

{'aith worth which is founded alone upon the traditions of that church?!
will only add, these are the words of Du Pin, a learned and authen-
tic ecclesiastical historian, whose work is published by the authority
of the learned doctors of the Sorbonne.

I have, let me now add, strong suspicions of tlio authenticity of
that passage of Irenasus. The Greek original in the first place is
lost: and in the second place the Latin translation was not found for
some hundreds of years afterwards. In the third place, two things
asserted by Irenaeus are not true: 1st, that Peter and Paul founded
the Roman church ; whereas it has been shown by Paul's letter to
the Romans, not to have been the case. 2d. This same Irenaeus says,
that Polycarp was ordained by the apostles, when according to Poly-
carp himself, he was not ordained till the year 97, when all the apos-
tles were dead save John, and there is no document to prove that even
John lived till that time. Thus dispose we of Roman traditions.

The gentleman first introduced this authority which I have in my
hand — an Episcopalian doctor — one of the most learned authors of the
nresent day, George Waddington — " History of the Church, 1834."
This author enumerates the bishops of Rome; but listen to his own
candid testimony. In his chronological table of eminent men, and of
the principal councils, he says :

" The succtFsion of the earliest Bishops of Rome and the duration of their go-
vornment, arc involved in intxplicablc confusion."

But I have here before me tho Romanorum Poniificum Index — a
chronological index of the Roman pontiffs, prefixed to Eusebius. I
have compared it for the first two centuries with Eusebius and some
of the primitive fathers, on whose authority it partially rests, and I can
say with confidence there is no faith can be reposed in it. I find the
authorities on which its assertions rest sometimes obscure, frequently
contradictory, and often at variance with other facts which they assert;
involving the credibility of the whole story of the successions from
diff"erent chairs. There are the following tradilions to be collected
from Eusebius and his fathers for only the first five links of this chain :

\st. Lineage. 2nd. Lineage. 3rd. /lineage. 4th. Lineage.

1- I'etfr. 1. Linus. 1. Tetcr. 1. Ptter.

2. Litim. 2. Anaclclus. 2. Annclclus. 2. Clement.

3- ('\'-lui. -.i. fUnient. 3. Clement. 3. LinuM.

4. Clement. 4. .Sixtus. 4. .Mexandcr. 4. CIctus.

5. Ana< Ictus. 5. Al(xand(r. 5. Kvaristu-'. 5. Alexander.

I might argue this suhject for hours and hours, but it is not worth
it, I do not like to imilalo my opponent in dilating upon inatters,which,
whether true or false, do notnlfcct tho points at isstie tho weight of a fea-
ther. But the display we have now made of the hi'ginning of sncces-
sion, according to various traditions and stalriiimts, is susceptible of
immediate proof, and shows how vacant and dubious these oral and

120 DEBATE ON THE

hearsay traditions are. Is not Waddington justified in saying "/Ai's
■mailer is involved in inexplicable confusion?'''' and well it is that saving
faith depends not upon such testimony !

I have said the Romanists have never been uniform in electing their
popes. I can show some six or seven different modes of filling
the chair of Peter, equally approved by the church of different
ages. The chair has often been filled by bribery, by force, by the
bayonet, and by all sorts of violence. It has been filled by men and
boys, and by all sorts of characters. But of this more fully at an-
other time.

The gentleman remarked, on Saturday, that the pope is not infalli-
ble. The question was not about the man, but the pope. I take him
at his word, and will now prove, that neither the present pope nor his
predecessors are successors of Peter; because Peter was infallible,
both in doctrine and in discipline. How, then, can these fallible
gentry — these fallible popes — be successors to Peter, in the capa-
city of officers, when they have not the grace of office, — my opponent
himself being judge?

I shall now attempt continuously to show, that if even Peter had
been placed by a positive precept in the office of vicar and head of the
church, all the official grace of such an appointment has failed by the
Tarious schisms in the Roman see. The chain has been broken ; for
Roman Catholics themselves admit, at least, twenty-two schisms ;
some count twenly-six. Protestants can find twenty-nine. I have al-
ready shown that the hook and the first link must be better secured,
if not welded ; for Peter the hook and first link has not yet been fas-
tened to the right place ; and some of the first links are so entangled
that Eusebius, the pope, and C. Waddington, cannot strengthen them.
And to quote the words of .4. Pope, not the pope, if one link be missing,
" 2\nih or ten ihousnadllt breaks the chain alike."

Ah me ! I am jostled out of my course again ! The mention of
Eusebius reminds me that the bishop has quoted him against the No-
vatians, &c. But what avails the testimony of Eusebius as a sectary?
It is quoting a Jansenist against a Jesuit — a Calvinist against an Ar-
minian — a Romanist against a Protestant. Eusebius speaks as a his-
torian, and he speaks as a sectary; sometimes Arian, perhaps, some-
times Trinitarian ; but certainly opposed to Novatus and his party.
It is very hard for a warm partizan, in any case, to state his opponent's
views fairly. I have never yet heard any one oppose Calvinism, or
Arminianism, just precisely as it was. There is some little difference
or other in the most equitable hands, which the opposite party would
not have stated just so ; and we know how often the merits of contro-
versy rests upon these minute matters. Novatus and Cornelius were
both elected bishops of Rome, and a controversy arose on their respec-
tive claims. In the course of the controversy, we learn, that it turned
on these two points:

" That Cornelius admitted (hose who had been guilty fif Idolatry to communion;
and Novatus taught that the church neither could nor ought to admit those to the
communion that bad apostatized." Uu Fin. Vol. I. p. 135.

Novatus was the rival of his friend Cornelius, and he regards him
as an anti-pope; he is, indeed, called anti-pope 1st. And, at this day,
we cannot tell whether Novatus or Cornelius was the successor of
Peter! So the first schism commenced, and we look for the faithful

E03LVN CATHOLIC EKLIGIOX. 121

witnesses against Roman assumption from that hour amongst the Re-
monstrants — call them the Novatians, Puritans, or Protestants.

The second schism we shall notice is that between Liberius and
Felix, A. D. 367,

" Constaiitius being enraged against St. Alhanasius, as supposing him the cause
of that enmity which his brother Constans had against him, Liberius as to this
answered wisely, jou ought not, sir, to make use of bishops to revenge your
quarrels ; for tlie hands of eccltsiastics ought not to be employed, but only to
bless and lo sanctify. At last Constantius threatened him with banishment ; 'I
have already,' says he, ' bid adieu to my brethren at Rome, for the ecclesiastical
laws are to be preferred before my living there.' Three days time were given
him to consider of it, and because he did not change his opinion in that time lie
was banished two days after to Berea a city of Thrace. The emperor, the em-
press, and the eunuch F.usebius, offered him money to bear the expenses of his
journey, but he refused it, and went away cheerfully to the place of his banish-
ment. The clergy of Rome having lost their iiead, took an oath to choose no-
body in the room of Liberius as long as he was alive ; but Constantius. by the
management of Epictetus bishop of Centumcellar in Italy, procured one Felix a
deacon lo be ordained bishop, who was himself also one of them that had sworn
not to choose a bishop in the room of Liberius « * » But Liberius, who had
given proof of so great constancy in time of peace, could not long endure the
tediousness of banishment ; for before he had been two years in it, he suffer-
ed himself to be over persuaded by Demophilus bishop of that city, of which he
was banished, and did not only subscribe the condemnation of St. Athanasius ;
but he also consented to an heretical confession of faith."— £>« Fin. Vol. L p. 190.

Now, if we take Liberius for the true pope, we must take an Jrian
head; for it must be acknowledged that he subscribed the heretical
and Ariaii creed ; and, perhaps, at this time the majority of the Roman
Catholic church were Arians ; but that is not the present inquiry.

We shall now read an account of the third schism :

D.VM.ASUS, BISIIcr OF ROME.

'• After the death of pope Liberius, which happened in the year 369, the see
of Rome being vacant for some time, by reason of the cal)alling "of those that pre-
tended to fill it, Daniasiis at last was' chosen by the greater part of the clergy
and people, and ordained by the bishops. But on the other side, Ursimis,
or rather Ursirinus, who was his conipctitor for the popedom, got himself
ordained by some otlu.r bishops in the church of Sicinus. This coiitest caused
a great division in the city of Rome, and stirred up so great a sedition there as
could hardly be appeased. 'J'he two jjarties came from words to blows, and
many christiang were killed in the churches of Rome upon this quarri 1. The
governor of Rome called J'rfrtcilus, bt ing desirous to allay the heat of this
contention, sent IJrsir.iiws into banishment by the emperor's order: but his
bonishment did not p< rfertly appease the cpinrrel; for the partizans of Ursicinus
assembled still in llie rhurchcs ofwhich they were possessed, without ever com-
municating with Diimasiis; and even when'the emperor had ordered that their
churches gfioiild lietakf n from them, they ^till kejilui) their assenil)lie8 without the
city, 80 that it was necessary at la^t to (Irive them rpjite out of Rome. And yet all
this did not hinder Ursirinus from having his secret associates in Italy and
at Rome. The bishop of PnUoli calhd Flornitius, and th<. bishoj) of I'arma wern
most zealous for his interests. Tliey were rondemned in a council held at Rome
in the year. '$72, and afterwards banished by thf authority of the emperor. How-
ever tnry found means to return into ttuir own country, and stirred up new
troubles there. They got pope Dnmasus to be arciiseif by one hanr, a Jew.
This arciisntion was examined in a council of bishops liehi at Rome, in tlie yrar
378, which dfclp.rrd Dnmasus innocent of the crime that was laid to his cliiirge.
This council wrote a litter to the emperor (iratinn, praying him to lake somo
order for the pence of Ihi- church r,f Rome. 'I he »iii|)eror wrote It. them, that
Ursicinus was detained at Colofrne, tlmt he had given ordi r to banish f.innr in-
to a corner of Spain^ and to force the bishops ol I'liteoli and rarnin, out f.f their
country. This flifl not hinder Untirinns from returning into Italy in the year
381, where he stirred up new tumult*, and endeavored to pre-engage the empe-
ror: but the bishops of Itahj being assembled in a council at Afiuilcia, in tbo

L IG

122 DEHATi; ox Tin;

year 381, wrote to smartly to him, tlint he banished LVj/cini/s forcvtr, and left
Damastis in praccablf pos^session ot" the sec of Rome, in wliich lie continued un-
til the year 384." Du Pin. Vol. I. p. 22G, 2-27.— [Time expired.]

Half past 3 o'clock, P. M.
Bisiicp Pt'RCELi. rises —

In the 2nd. century lived Tortnlliau — a priest in Africa. He showed
how clear was the chain of tradition — he says distinctly that Peter was
bishop of Rome. I am g^ointr to (luole another splendid passage from
his testimony. But first let me ask, how could a massive, an enormous
volume like this (holdings it up) of which the zeal of the early Christ-
ians, has made so many copies ; and a portion of which, the admirable
apologetic, or del'ence of our Christian ancestors, was addressed to the
Pagan Emperors, have been vitiated'? It was spread over the whole
world — it was read with avidity by Christians and heathens. It is
authentic history and based on testimony far more credible than we
possess of the genuineness of Homer, or Horace, of Tacitus, or Cicero.
We could not believe any fact of history, not even our title to our houses
and other goods and chattels, without admitting it. How else but by
such records, do we know with certainty of events of which our senses
have not taken cognizance, of which we have no personal knowledge, that
a few years ago we fought a hard battle with England and gained our
independence ? That our general was named Wasliington, and that he
was aided by La Fayette 1 Comparatively recent as these events be, they
are matters of tradition! and tradition is but another name for history.
Admit my learned opponent's principle, and the world will be turned
to|)sy-turvy. We cannot be sure of any thing. I now cite Tertullian;
and mark, I pray you, the clearness and force of his reasoning in the
following syllogism, for apostolical succession.

Ttrtullian de praescriptione adveisiis liitTeticos, lib. p. 391. " If the LorilJtsus
Chrijt sent his apastles to preach, no other preachers are to be received than
those whoin he coniinissioned : for no" one knows the Father but the Son. and
they to whom the Son hath revealed him, nor is the Son seen to have reveal-
ed him to any others than the apostles, whom he sent to preach what he reveal-
ed to them. Now what they preached, that is to say, vvnat Christ revealed to
them, I will here lay down as a principle (hie prffiscribam) cannot be otherwise
proved than by the same churches which the apostles, themselves, founded, by
preaching to them, themselves, both by word ot mouth, as they say, and, after-
wards, by their epistles. If this be so, it is therefore plain that all the doctrine
which agrees with these apostolic churches, the malriccs and originals (or exem-
jjlars) of faith, is to be reputed true, as undoubtedly, holding that which the
churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, and Christ from
God : but that all other doctrine is to be prejudged false, as teaching contrari-
Iv to the churches and to the apostles, to Christ and to God. All, therefore,
tliat remains now to be done is to demonstrate that the doctrine we preach, as
already explained, has been handed down to us from the apostles, and thus con-
vict all other doctrines of t'alsehood "They, (the heretics) object that Peter

was reprehended by Paul. But let those who make this allegation shew that
Paul preached a dilferent gospel from what Peter preached and the other apos-
tles. If Peter was rejjrehentled for withdrawing, through human respect, from
intercourse with the (jentiles, with whom he previously associated, this was a
fault of conduct (conversationis) not of preaching. He did not, on this account,
preach a different God from the Creator, a different Christ from the son of Ma-
ry, a different hope from that of the resurrection — and, (to refute these here-
tics,) I will answer as it were for Peter, that I'aul, himself, said that he made
himself, all things to all men, a Jew to the Jews, and no Jew to those who were
no Jews, that he may gain all. So that Paul repreljended, under certain cir-
cumstances, in Peter, what he, himself, under certain circumstances, did."

KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 123

But I might read the whole book of prescriptions by TertuUian
against heretics.

The fish story again — here is Henry's exposition of the Bible. The
principal meaning, in his view, is that which I have given.

Could Paul, my friends, claim to be the chief of the apostles? Ho
had probably done more than any man then living against Christianity,
until prostrated by anger and mercy, on the road to Damascus. " Saul,
Saul, wliy persecutest thou me" changed him from a wolf to a lamb,
from a persecutor to an apostle.

Eusebius informs us that Paul of Samosata, was deposed bj' a coun-
cil in consequence of the heresy introduced by him at Antioch, of wiiich
a detailed account had been rendered b3'the council to Dionysius, bish-
op of Rome. Paul being unwilling to leave the building of the
church, "an appeal was made to the emperor Aurelian, who decided
most equitably on the business, ordering the building to be given up
to those whom the christian bishops of Rome and Italy should write."
Another Pagan, Ammianus Mnrccllinus, giving an account of the
persecution raised by the emperor Constantius against the famous
patriarch of Alexandria St. Atlianasius, tells us that this emperor
strove hard to procure the condemnation of Atlianasius by Liberius, on
account of the supreme authority enjoyed bj' the bishops of the Roman
see." " Even from the mouths of l)abes and sucklings," says the
Scriptures, " hath God made perfect praise." I may observe, tliat he
has extorted testimony from Pagan kings and historians, to prove the
authority of the bishop of Rome ihronghoul the Christian world.

My friend has introduced the subject of unity, in connection with
tradition. We shall argue that, if he ])ieases, from the Bible ; but in
the mean time let us hear Cyprian, a bishop of Carthage, in Africa,
on this subject, in the .'5J. century. I am bold to say, you have never
heard argument stronger, illustration more apposite, or language more
beautiful, than what this father employs.

Cvpriaii. (Ic Uiiitatc l-lcclesia: Ciitholic;:', [). 181, ami Di: Siinplici Prros. The
primacy isgiv<:n to I'rtfcr that the church and thi: c!i;iir of Christ may be shewn
to be out. And all tlu: apo<-(l(:s and sheplitrds, but tht-rc is seen but one; (lack,
fed by all the npoiitlt-s with unanimous consent ; can he who holdcth not
thin unity, believe he liolds the faith ? Can hf who resists and opposes tlic
church, who forsakes the chair o( I'eter, on whicli the church was founded, flat-
ter iiinisclf that he is in the cliurch, while the apostle Paul t<;aches the same
thing and shews the sacrament of unity, saying-, "ONF, noDY A.vn ONE SPiliiT,
ONK HOPE OK VOLR VOfATION, ONF. 1,0111), ONE FAITH, O.NF, ItAI'TISAI, ONF.
God." Let no man decejvr: the brotln rliood by a lie ; let no inaji, by perfidi-
ous ))revarications corrupt the truth of faith ! The e])iscopacy is one, lach se-
parate part Ijeinj^ consolidated in one. 'I'hc church too is one, with btxiiriniit
fertility extending- her branihes throughout. As tiiere are many rays of light,
but no more than one sun, many branc-lieH, but only one truidi, held fast in tin-.
earth by its tenacious root, many btreams pushing from one fountain, but all
blendecl in their source. Sever a ray from the sun, the unity o( light sutlers
no dividion ; break a brHiich from the tree, the liroken branch will l)ud no more,
cut off n stream from the source, the severed stream will dry up. ."^o liki-vviso
the church, irrndialeil with the light of the Lord, ditluses her rays throughout
the universe. 'I'he light, however, which is every where dilTused is one, nor is
the unity of the body separated. She spreads her eopiuus slrianis, but tliere is
one head, one origin, one blessed mother with a numerous jirogeriv. We arc
her offspring, we are nourished with her milk, we are imimaled witli her spirit.
He ran no huiger have Cod for his tiither, who has not the < hurrh for his moth-
er. If any one out of the nrk of iN'oe njuld <s(-ai)e, s'l likewise he that is out
of the church may escape. 'I'he Lord says, 1 an(f the F'athcr arc one : again, it
ia written of the (•■other, and Son, and Holy Ulioat: " and thcie three ore one,"

124 • DEBATE ON THE

and can any one imagine that the unitv which proceeds from tlivinc slrcng'th,
and whicli is niaintaineil by (iivine sarranioiils, can be torn asunder in the church,
and destroyed by the opposition of disconiant hearts.'"

I will now go over the ground, my friend travelled this morn-
ing. He said we allowed that we had two high priests on earth. I
protest against the gentleman's saying for nie what I have not said.
One high Priest we have in heaven, d'od. lie has a vicar on earth,
the pope. But that vicar wields no authority hut from God.

I have, again, hecn reprehended for endeavoring to gain friends by
expressing a liking for the English people, the Irish, and the Ameri-
cans. But, my friends, have I done them more than justice 1 Have I
swerved from the truth? Have I not said that the English had a
thousand faults'? — [Time expired.]

Ihur o'cloch, P. M.
Mr. Campbell rises —

We have had a learned discussion on the unity of the church. We
can sit and patiently hear my opponent while he fills up his time by
reading the views of the saints on unity or any thing else he may
deem edifying. But as this is not the business now before us, we
shall be glad he would choose some other time for it. On this sub-
ject we have no controversy at the present time : and that the church
should be one, and that she is one virtually and in fact, we doubt not.
All that has been read by my opponent on this subject is wholly a
free will ofiering, instead of that argument which the occasion demands.

Was Peter ever bishop of Rome'? That indeed was a question : but
is it a standing question? How often will my opponent recur to it
without proving it ? He says, indeed, that Ireuieus says that he was :
but I say, not a line can be shown from Irenaeus nor any other writer
of the first two centuries affirming in so many words that Peter was
bishop of Rome! Let him then refute me at once, by producing the
passages. He might have heard so. He has produced Tertullian as
a commentator or a retailer of traditions. 'J'hat you may know some-
thing of Tertullian as a theorist, and commentator, I will read you by
way of offset a sample or two, simply to show how much these opi-
nions are worth. He speaks very advantageously of custom and
tradition, and relates several remarkable examples of ceremonies which
he pretends to be derived from tradition.

" To begin," says he, "with baptism, when vre are ready to enter into the wa-
ter, and even before we make our protestations before the bishop, and in the
church, that we renounce the devil, all his pomps and njinisters : afterward, we
are plunged in the ^val(r three times, and they make us answer to some things
which are not precisely set down in the gospel; after that they make us taste
milk and honey, and we batiie ourselves every day. during that whole week. We
receive the sacrament of the eucharist, institute J by Jesus Clirist, when vie eat,
and in the morning assemblies we do not receive it but from the hands of those
that preside there. We offer yearly oblations for the dead in honor of the mar-
tyrs. We believe fliat it is not lawful to fast on a Sunday and to pray to God
kneeling. From Easier to Whitsuntide we enjoy the same privilege. We take
great care not to sutler any part of the wine and consecrated bread to fall to the
ground. We often sign ourselves with tlie sign of the cross. If you demand a
law for these practices taken from scripture, we cannot find one there ; but we
must answer, that 'tis tradition thai has established them, custom las authorized
them, and faith has made them to be obsf rved." Tertidl. De Corona IMilitis.

When Tertullian asserts a fad, I believe: but when he relates a
drearn, a guess, an opinion, or reports a tradition, I listen to hiin as
to the speculations of a contemporary. You shall have it both in
Latin and Enarlish.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 125

"Age jam qui voles curiositateiu melius exercere in negotio salutis tuae, per-
curre ecclesiasapostolicas, apud quas ipsae adhuccatheilr.-c apostolorum suis locis
praesidentur, apud quas ipsce authentica; lilera? recitantur, senates vocem, et
reprtesentanteslacieni uniuscujusque. Proxima est tibi Achaia ? Habes Corinthum.
Si non longe es a Macedonia, habes Philippos, habes Thessalonicenses. Si pe-
tes in Asiani tendere, habes Ephesun). Si auteni Italiaj adjaces, habes Romani,
unde nobis quoque aucotritas pnesto est."

" Conic now, you who are desirous more fully to devote yourselves to the great
affair of your salvation, hasten to the apostolic churches. Still do the very
chairs of the apostles vet stand in their own places: sUW are their ttuiheniic letters
recited, v^'hich seund" forth their very tones, and whiih faithfully exhibit their
very countenances. If you are in Achaia, you haveCorinth: if in Macedonia, you
have Philippi and Thessalonica. If you journey into Asia, you have Ephesus.
If Italy be your residence, you liave Rome," itc.

On this precious excerpt I will only remark that it fully proves,

1. That the authentic copies or autographs of the apostolic epistles
were extant in the time of Tertullian, in those churches to which
they were addressed. —

2. That the superiority of these churches named above others, so
far as salvation was concerned, was, that they had these authentic
epistles carefully preserved and read. —

3. That as respected authority in the grand affair of salvation, in
the judgment of Tertullian, Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, Ephesus
and Rome were equal. — Pardon tlie digression. The extract is worth
a volume in prostrating the arrogant pretensions of Rome.

One word on the text, as commented on by Matthew Henry. I
have had his work in my library for twenty five years. He is a high-
ly esteemed practical commentator : but is not ranked among critics.
But yet he decides nothing for my opponent. He admits that it may
be either the one or the oilier explanation. But mind me. The Roman
Catholic doctrine requires the explanation "lovcstthou me more than
these love me ;" because it was on account of a supremacy of love
over all the apostles, that it claims for Pcler the supremacy. But
Henry admits tliat Clirist may have alluded to the nets and boats and
occupation of Peter; while he refers to or say.s, "do you love me
more than your companions." Tiie Messiah never, indeed, had any
jcalou.sy of that sort. His comment on John xxi. 15, reads :

" Lovcsl thou iiic more llian th(«t"? lieltcr than Junifis or John thy intimate
friends, or Andrew, thy own brother and companion! 'I'liose do not love Christ
a right, that do not love liiin belter than the best friend in the world, and make
it appear, when ever they stand in competition, or, more than these things,
the»« boats and nets! Those only love Christ indeed, that love him better than
all the delijfhts of sense and all tlie occupations and profits of this world. J.oy-
est thou me more than these? If so, leave th( ni to employ thyself wholly in
feeding my flock." Henry's Commentary.

But I would like to read what this commentator says about the rock:

Matthew xvi. Iff. '• And I say unto thee, that (liou art I'tter; and upon this
rock, I will build my church; anil the gates of ht II shall not prevail against it."

Peler'i confession contains that fundamental truth, r< «p« iliiig the person^ and
offices of Christ, upon which, as on a roi-k, he would budd his church. Nor
could the powers of death or the inlraiice into tlu- etirnal world, de-troy the
hope of lho«e who should build on it. Nothing can be more absuni tliim to sup-
pose that {'liriil meant thai tin; person of Peter was the rock, on which the
church should be hiiilded; except it be the wild notion that the bishops of Homo
have since substituted in his i>lace! Their rock in not as our rock, our enemies
themselves being jn Iges. Without doubt, Chri-t himself the rock— and tried
founflation of the church, and woe be to him who altenipts to lay any other, lb.

If then, MaUliew Henry is good authority on one point he is good
on the other.
L 2

120 DEBATE OX THK

Bishop Oley of Tennessee has l)erii unceremoniously drat^gcd into
this controversy. He is a f]^entleman I'or whom I entertain a very
high regard : and while we difier on some questions, concerning dio-
cesan episcopacy, we perfoctljf ao;ree on the import of 'it^t/c (Hi(>rus)
a priest, as applied to christians, lie has no idea, more than myself
of a christian hicrus, or priest ollering sacrifices for sins on earth. He
has not answered, indeed, seven letters addressed to him by myself on
bishop Onderdonk's tract on diocesan episcopacy : but yet it is not
too late. We expect one of these bishops to reply to them.

The Roman Catholics alone contend that priests, by whicii they
mean an order of clergy, can offer sacrifice for sins. Nay, indeed,
Mr. Hughes in his controversy with Mr. Breckenridge, says, " To oiler
sacrifice is the chief official business of the priests." p. 288. Hence,
we learn that even in this enlightened land and 19th century, there
are persons amongst us claiming the power of making sin offerings
and expiating and forgiving sins !!

We now resume the history of schisms in the succession :

We last read you the contentions and havoc of human life on the
succession of Damasus. The emperor at that time decided the con-
troversy by banishing Ursinus, and on the decision of that emperor
now rests the faith and salvation of the Roman church — themselves
being judges. And yet, my learned opponent, in some of his speeches,
affects to tell you that emperors have nothing to do, — no right to in-
terfere in councils, or with church officers ; and here, and on numer-
ous occasions, we find them filling Peter's chair, making vicars of
Christ, and heads for his church !!

We cannot rehearse all the schisms, and sliall therefore give only
a specimen. We take another instance of an imperial pope — one of
an emperor's creation.

" After the dtath of pope Zozimus, tlie cluii-ch of Home was divided about
the election of his successor. The archdeacon iMjlalius, who aspired to the
bishopric of Rome, shut himself up in the church of the Lateran, with part of the
people, some priests, and some deacons, and made them choose iiim in Zozimus'
room. On the other side a great number of priests, several bisiiops, and part
of the people, being assembled in the church of Theodora, elected Boniface.
Both were ordained; Kulalius was ordained by some bishops, aujong whom was
the bishop of Ostia, who used to ordain the bishop of Rome. Honifqce was
likewise ordained by a great number of bishops, and went to take possession of
St. Peter's church.

Svmmachus, governor of Rome, having tried in vain to make them agree, writ
to tne emperor llonorius about it. In his letter of the 29th of December, 418,
he speaks in Eulalius' behalf, and judges Boniface to be in the wrong. The
emperor believing his relation, sent him word immediately that he should
expel Boniface and upliold Eulalius. The governor liaving received this order,
sent for Boniface to ac(|uaint him with it, but he would not come to him, so that
the governor sent to him to signify the emperor's order, and kept liim from re-
turning into the city. The bishops, priests, and the people that sided with
Boniface, wrote immediately to the emperor to entreat him that he would order
both Kidalius and Bonijhce to go to court, that their cause might there be
"udged. To satisfy them, the emperor sent to Si/iianachus an order of 30th of
anuar_v, 419, signifying that lie should enjoin Jionifice and Kulalius to be at
Ravenna about the 6lh oi February, llonorius convened some bishops thither
to judge of their cause; and that they might not be suspected of favoring any
one side, he commanded that none of those who had ordained either of them,
should be a judge in the case. The bisiiops that were chosen to judge this
cause being divided, the emperor put ofi' the judgment till May, and forbade
Kulalius nnd Boniface to go to Rome; and sent thither .'3 c/(t7/n/s, bishop fjf
Upoltto, to perform the Episcopal functions during the KasUr holydays ; in

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 127

which time he prepared a nunierous synod, and invited the bishops both o( ji^rica
and Gaul; but Eulalius could not endure that delay, and spoiled his business
by his impatience; for whether he distrusted his ri^ht, or whether he was of a
restless temper, he returned to JRonie the IGth o( March, and would have staid
there notwithstanding the emperor's orders, which obliged Symmachus to use
\ioknce to drive him out of Rome; and the emperor having- been informed of
his disibedience, waited fjr no other judgri.ent, but caused Boniface to be put
in posses-ion in the beginning of April, 419." — Lhi Pin, vol. I. p. 417.

The Holy Spirit, then, by tiie emperor Hoiiorius, — an Jn'ati, too,
(if I recollect right,) establishes a vicar for Christ in the person of
IJoniface I. What, says bishop Purcell, have emperors to do \vith
Christ's church ? ! Once, then they had a great deal to do with it;
and where is infallibility now 1

Next comes pope Symmachus. Again the church's head is the
fruit of bloodshed and war.

'• After the death of pope ,/lnastasitis, which liappcn<(l at the end of the
year 498, there was a fierce contention in the church of Rome between L,au-
rtnliiis aiid Symmachus, which of them two was duly promoted to that see. Sym-
jiiachus who was deacon, was chosen, and ordained by the far greater number;
Ijut F':iius a Roman Senator, who had jiromised the Emperor Anastasius, that
his edict of agreement with the bishop of Rome should be signed, procured
Laiirentius to be chosen and ordained. This schism divided the church and
the city of Rome, and the most eminent both of the clergy and the senate took
part with one of these two bishops: but at length both, parties agreed to
wait upon King Thcodoric at Ravenna for his decision in the case, udiich was
this, That he shntitj coniiniie bishop (if Rome, n-ho had been Jirsl chosen, and
should be found to have thejitr greater number of voices for him. Symmachus
had the advantage of Laiirentius on both these accounts, and so was confirmed in
the possession ol the holy see, and he ordained Lnurenlivs bishop of J^~ocera,
if we may believe Anastasius. At the beginning of the next year he called a.
council, wherein he made a canon against the ways of sohcitin"- nuns' voices,
which were then used for obtaining the pa)5al dignity : but those who o[)])Osed the
ordination of Symmachus, seeing hnn possi ssi-d of the holy see against their mind,
used all their endeavours to turn him out of it, for x\hich end they diarged him
with many crimes, they stirred up a part of the people and senate against him,
and caused a petition to be presented to king 7'heodoric, that he ^\ould aj)poiiit
a delegate to luar the cause. He named I'eter bishop of ..lllinas, who dejjosed
the pope from the government of his diocese, and deprived him of the possessions
of the church. This division was the cause of so great disorders in Rome, that
from words they came many tin)es to blows, and every day produced lighting and
iimrders: many ecclesiastics were beaten to death, virgins were robbed, and driven
away from their haljitation, many lay-men were wounded orkilliul, insomuch that
not only the church, but also the city of Rome sulfered very much by this schism.

King 'I'licodoric being ties irons to put an end to these disorders, called a council;
wherein the bishop being, possessed with a good o|iinion of Pope Syuiaclivs, would
not enter upon lln^ examination of the particulars albgid against him, but only-
declared him innocent before his accusers, of the crinjes that were laid to Ins
charge: and they |)revailed so far by their importunity, that the king was satisfied
with tills sentence, and both the ])i:o\>\i: and the senate who had l)een very much
irritated against Symmaclins, were pacified, and ncknowhdged him for pope. Yet
sonic of the discontentfcl party still remained, who drew up a \vriting against the
Synod and .npread their cnliiimiies, forged against .Sipnmaclius, as far as the east.
'I'lie einjttrvr .Inaslusius obji'cted them to hnn, which obliged .S'i/m»;i«cA//.? to write
a litter to him for his own vindication; but notwithstanding these elVorls of his
I nemic», he rontiniied in possession of the holy si e until the yi ar ."ill win rein
le died." I)u I'm. \ol. I. p. 5.27.

If we cannot find (Jlirisl's church some where out ol tlic Uoniaa
church at this time, we shall have a hard task to find her there !

Again, we shall read a few words concerning I'oniface II.

" Jjonifiicc, the sci ond of thai nnmc-, the fir^l pope o(t tie nal ion o( the (iolht, wan
promoted lo the holy see, under the reign of king Ahiri'iiH on the I'llii (lay of Oc-
tober, in the year 5J9. At the tame time one part of the chrgy chose Dioscorus

128 DEBATE ON THK

who was formerly one of tlic tlcputics sent into the east by Hormisdas. Honiface
was ordaini'd in the churcli of Jnlius, ;\n(l Diosconis in that of Constantine. 15ut
this last died the 12th day of iVovoinbcr. Honiface seeing; himself left in sole
possession used his utmost endeavors to bring over those who had been of the
other party: he threatened thi ni with an aiuithenia, and forced lh(;m to subscribe.
He called together the clergy, anil condemned the memory of Dioscorus, accusing
him of simony. He proceeded yet further, and, as if it were not enough for him
to be secured of the noly see for himself, he would also appoint himself a suc-
cessor, and having called a synod, he engaged the bishops anci clergy by oalh, and
under their hands, that they should choose and ordain in his room the deacon
Vigilius afterhis death. This being against the canons, he himself acknowledged
publicly his fault, and burned the yvriting which he extorted from them." Du Pin.
Vol. I." p. 542.

What an excellent head, truly, for the church of Christ !

"We shall next see, that other women besides queen Elizabeth,
whom my opponent denounces for being head of the English church,
had something to do in pope manufacturing. — Pope Sylverius and
pope Vigilius come next:

"The deacon Vigilius remained at Constantinople after the death of Agapetus,
who had for a longtime aspired to the bishopric, and made use of this occasion
to get himself promoted to it. He promised the empress, that if she would
make him pope he would receive Theodosius, Authimus, and Severus into his
connuunion, and that he yvould approve their doctrine. The empress not only
promised to make him pope, but also offered him money if he would do what
she desired. Vigilius having given the empress all the assurances that she could
wish, departed with a secret order addressed to Bellisarius to make him success-
ful in his design. Vigilius being come into Italy, found all things well prepared
for him, the siege of Rome was raised when he arrived there, but during the
siege Silverius was suspected to hold correspondence with the Goths, and so he
was rendered odious for refusing expressly to accept the empress's proposals of
receiving Authimus. Thus Vigilius having delivered to BelPisarius the order
which he brought, and having promised him two hundred pieces of gold over
and above the seven hundred which he was to give him, found no great difficulty
to persuade him to drive away Silverius."

**»*■*

" This was put in execution, be yvas delivered to the guards of Vigilius, and
fie was banished into the Isles of Ponticnna and Panctataria, which were over
against the mount Cirrellus, where he died of a famine in great misery, if we
may believe Liberatus. Procopius, in his secret historj, seems to insinuate, that
he was killed by one named F.ugenius, a man devoted to Antonina — the wife of
Bellisarius: but what Procopius says, may be understood not of the death of
Silverius, but ratherof his accusation or apprehension."
««*» ***** *

" Although Vigilius was promoted to the see of Rome, by a way altogether
unjust, yet he continued in the possession of it after the death of Sdverius, and
was acknowledged for a lawful pope, without proceeding to a new election, or
even confirming that which had been made. The conduct which he had observ-
ed during this pontificate answered well enough to its unhappy beginning. He
had at first approved the doctrines of Authimus, and that of the Acephali, to sat-
isfy the empress: but the fear of being turned out by the people of Rome, whom
he hated, made him c|uickly recall this approbation; yet he did not, by this,
gain the hearts of the Roman». They could not endure an usurper, who having
been thecause of the death of their lawful bishop, would abuse them ^o. They
accused him also, of having killed his secretary with a bloyv of his Bt, and of
having whipped his"! sister's son till he died. The empress who was not satis-
fied with him because he had gone back from his word, sent Authimus to Rome
with an order to bring him into Greece, and at his departure the people gave
him all sorts of imprecations.'' Ih. Vol. I. pnfcc 552.

We shall only at this time give the details of another column of
the history of the popes in the work before us. It speaks for itself
— tells how all the evil passions of human nature co-operated in the
election and creation of Christ's vicars.

ROJIAN CAXnOLIC RELIGION. 129

Under head — " An account of the popes, and of the church of Rome, from the
time of Sylvester II. to Gregorj- V'll. 'After his death there was a schism in
the church of Rome; between £enedicl V'lII. son to Gregory, the count of
Frcscati, who was first elected by his father's interest; and one Gregory, who
was elected by some Romans, who outed Benedict. He fled to Henry, king of
Germany, who immediately raised forces, and marched into Italy to re-establish
him. As soon as the king arrived, Gregory fled for it, and Benedict was re-
ceived without any opposition. He conferred the imperial crown on that prince,
and on queen Chunegonda his wife. Benedict died in the year 1034, and some
authors say, that after his death he appeared mounted on a black horse, and that
he showed the place where he had deposited a treasure, that so it might be dis-
tributed to the poor, and that by these alms, and the prayers of St. Odilo, he was
delivered from the torments of the other life. We have only one Bull of bis,
in favor of the Abby of Cluny."

" The count oi J-'rcsrad, that the popedom might be still in his family, caused
his other son to be elected in the room of Benedict VIII. though he was not
then in orders. He was ordained and called John, which, according to us, is the
eighteenth of that name, but according to others the twentieth. 'Tis said, that
some time after this pope being sensible that his election was vicious and simo-
niacal, he withdrew into a monastery there to sufler jjenance, and that he forbore
performing any part of his function, till such time as he was chosen again by the
clergy."

"John X^'III. dying Novr. 7, in the year 1033, Aiberi count of Frescati,caus-
«d his son to be seated on St. Peter's chair. He was nephew to the two last
popes the tount's brothers, and was not above eighteen years of age at the most.
He changed his name of Thophylact into that of Benedict IX.

Peter Darnien, speaks of him as a man that lived very disorderly, and was very
unworthy of that dignity to which he had been advanced by the tyranny of his
father. However, he enjoy*-d the popedom very quietly for ten years together;
but at last the Romans, weary of his abominable irregularities, outed him, and
put up in his place, the bishop of St. Sabina, who took ujjon him the name of
Sylvester III. He enjoyed his dignity but three months; for though Benedict
voluntarily resigned the popedom, yet he returned to Rome, and with the assis-
tance of Fnscati's party, drove out his competitor, and re-assumed the papal
chair. But being altogether uncapable of govf ruing it, and having nothing more
in- his thoughts than the gratifying of his brutal appetite, he made a bargain about
the popedom with John Graciuii, archbishop of the church of Rome, and made
it over to him for a sum of money, reserving to himself the revenues due from
England to the holy see. This Gracian took upon him the name of Gregory VI.
In the meantime, kuig Henry, who had succeeded his futiier, Conrad, in the year
1039, being incensefrBgaiiiwt Benedict, who hod sent the imperial crown to the
king of Huneary, after he had deflated that prince, resolved to march into Italy
to nut an end to that schism. After he came thitlier ho caused these three popes
to be deposed in several synods as usurpers, simonists, and criminals. Bcnetfict
fled for it ; Gregory VI. was apprehended and afterwards banislied; and Sylves-
ter III. was sent back to his bishopric of St. Sabina. He caused Suidger, bishop
of Hamberg, to be elected in their stcid, who took upon him the name of Cle-
ment 11. and wa.t acknowledged a^ lawful po|)e by all the world. He crowned
Henry emperor, and as he vvaa wniliiig upon hiiii home toGermany. died beyond
the Alps, October 7, in the year 1017, niin^ months after his elrctioJi. Inimedi-
ately upon this, Benedict IX. returns to Rome, and a third time remounts the
papal chair, which he held for eight months, notwithstanding the j nipcror had
•enl from Germany !'i)p|io, biihopof Bresse. who was consecrated pope under the
title of 9feniaHui ll. but he di<l not long enjoy that dignity, for he died of poison,
as if supposerl, at Pale^trinn, three and twenty days niter his coronation."

" It i« no wonder that these pojics have not left us the least monuni< nt of their
pastoral vigilanrr. either in councils or by letters, since all th< ir care and aim
was how to gratify their ambition and the r» st of their (inssions, without watch-
ing over the flock of Jcsuh rhrinl." /)„ l'i„, vol. ii. ;.. 20fi.

Obsprvp, a Hinpio rount has tlin controlling power of somo three
popes (liirinp this ariniiiilHtration ; and may be said to have the ch«Tch
under his sppcial niana^omont! Comment on siirh a narrative is un-
necessary. — ['rime expired.]

inO DEHATE 0.\ THE

Half-past '1 o'chi'h, P. M.
TisHor PuKCELL riseb —

I should prefer replying to the last part of my friend's argument at
once, but order requires tliat I should follow him through all his points.

We were told the 'old Irish story' of St. Patrick sailing on a mill-
stone. Well, tlic Irish have always been remarkable for telling a good
story; but this is told for them, and it is not even witty, much less has
it any bearing on tlie argument. There is not, I presume, one educated
Catholic in llie world wlio believes a tab; so ridiculous. For my own
part, I had never even heard it before ; but I have heard of a life of St.
Patrick and St. Bridget, written by some young Protestant wag who gath-
ered together all the absurd stories he could find and fjave them this name.
My friend must have felt the want of better arguments when he intro-
duced such a silly tale, at this debate, for the purpose of weakening
the authority of tiie most sacred documents. I will not call this pro-
fane, but I must say, that, in my opinion, it is indecorous.

I have been charjred with excitino- the lauo-hter of this audience, at
the expense of my friend; this is not my fault; what alternative but
ridicule for the story we have just heard ^ It was thus that Elias
mocked the false priests of Baal, by saying, "Cry louder on your
god — peradventure he sleepeth and must be awaked." iii. Kings
15, 27.

Admit my learned opponent's reasoning, and you cannot be sure that
ever there was such a man as Peter : admit it, and you cannot pre-
tend to say that you have had grandfathers or grandmothers, or at least
that they had had any themselves : you have never seen them ; how then
can you be sure they ever existed ! Sometimes forged notes get into
circulation; conclude with my friend, that you may as well part com-
pany at once with the genuine notes you may possess, for you can no
longer prove them to, any man's satisfaction, to be worth having. I
will go siill farther: admit Mr. C.'s curious reasoning, and you can
never be sure that such a personage as Jesus Christ ever existed, much
less that he wrought miracles to prove the divinity of his mission !
You did not see the miracles ; the book that records them was written
long after they occurred ; and many of the most important portions of
this very book were doubted of for upwards of 300 years after Christ,
even by Luther himself, in the enlightened IGth century ! His author,
Du Pin, says there were abundance of false gospels, false epistles, false
acts, iu tlie early ages. IIuw then, azcorJinir to his principles, can we
be sure of the authenticity of a sini^/e Ijooh of the Old or New Testament,
seeing we have no voucher for the truth but the testimony of men ?
Here are chasms to be bridged, and links in the chain of scriptural
testimony, to be welded, for full .']00 years, ay IGOO years, before the
various books of scripture were collected together: and when they
were collected, this collection was made by men, who, he says, were
liable to be mistaken like ourselves; and who knows to this day but
they were mistaken ! Such are the horrid consequences of his illogi-
cal reasoning — another sad illustration that, for tne deserter from the
Caliiolic church, there is no resource but to deny every thing, to be-
come a deist. I would advise my friend, when he goes back to Bethany,
to prove in the Harbinger that such a thing as the present controversy
never occurred. I am sure that he can make some people believe, all
editorials to the contrary notwithstanding, that it is all a hoax.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 131

He gratuitously mixes up the names of the first five or six popes, in
a way unknown to antiquity, whereas Eusebius, Optatus, Tertullian,
and Irenaeus, zgree perfectly in the enumeration of Peter, Linus, Anacle-
tus, Clement, Evaristus, Alexander — and two of these authors have
been translated by Protestants ! The mixture of the books of scrip-
ture is for him a far more insurmountable difficulty. There was much
disputing for hundreds of years as to the time and place where the
epistles and gospels were w-rilten ; must we, therefore, reject them
altogether] According to his rule of reasoning, we should reject
them; but, thank God, Catholics admit no such rule. A few discre-
pancies about the minor points, where there is perfect unanimity as to
the substance, only confirm our conviclion of the historian's good faith.
And lliere is as much indisputable testimony of the succession in tiie
chair of Peter, as there is to prove any book of scripture whatsoever. I
might, in fact, say there is more. I have already nailed Dupin to the
counter; he leans on a broken reed. He quotes St. Paul, to prove that
neither he nor Peter founded the church of Rome, whereas St. Paul
says no such thing, but only that they should not indulge in foolish
disputes about the ministers who had preached to them the w"ord of
life, "I am for Paul, I am for Apollos," but give all glory to Christ
who died for them. There were christians at Rome before St. Peter
or St. Paul went thither. The Roman soldiers who saw Christ cruci-
fied, and witnessed the prodigies attending his death, were, doubtless,
many of them, as well as the centurion who smote his breast,' and cried
out ^^ truly this man was the Son of God,^^ converted to Christianity;
who, when they returned home to Rome, related what they liad seen,
to their countrymen, and made olliers converts. The apostles, after-
wards, went to Rome and founded tlie see. So it was in England. Long
before Gregory sent St. Augustin to that country, there were Catholics
there — even in the days of pope Eleutherius.

What was the use of quoting Waddinglon as an author of infallible
weight with me] He could not avoid making splendid acknowledg-
ments to the church of Rome. The truth was too strong for iiim. But
if we believe a man when he testifies atrainst liimself, is tliat any rea-
son we should believe him wlien he testifiesyj^r liimself? In fiict, the
inexplicable confusion of which Waddington speaks, is not to be found
in any of the historians I have named and whose works I have exhi-
bited — from which too I have read to this assembly. If any confusion
exist, it is with respect to the time when each succeeded each, al-
though in this respect the earliest historians agree, as you have seen.
Linus, Cletus, (or Ancncletus,) and Clement, are all spoken of in the
epistles of St. Paul. They held a conspicuous rank in the church ;
their names and services in these high places were often seen, and
hence could have occurred a mixture of their names and of the dates
of their pontificates, among now remote histr>rians. But in every case
of doubt as to scripture, or ecclesiastical hisldry, the tests of snnnd
criticism must be applied, and then the sibyls and the MercuriusTris-
megistus are sure to go overboard. " Opiniotutm commcnia delct dics,^*
says Cicero, ^* natur.y judiria ronjirmnf.^^ I'inic. exposes falsehood —
and confirms truth. What (Cicero says time does, a more rcKperlablo
agent, tlm fbiirob, has achieved — she has selected the genuine hooks
of scripture and stamped fortjery upon such as were spurious. Had
she not done this wher» would have bccu tho Bible] Thcru are other

132 DEBATE OX THE

ways of detecting error — Dn Pin has told you of them. "A third class,"
says lie, "forge for their diversion." You have all heard of the late
prodigious humbug at KxetiT Hall, England. The king suppresses the
Orange lodges. Tlio bigots of llio nation rally. They invite a general
convention of their brother bigots throughout the empire; a champion,
it was the notorious Dr. McGheo, is invited from Ireland. He pro-
fesses to have discovered a document penned by the reigning pontiff,
and addressed to the clergy of England and Ireland, that recommended
all the crimes that could be thought, of to be committed against the
Protestants. The crowd is gathered. The conquering hero comes. The
air is vexed with the cries of "down with the Catholics," — "long
life to McGhee !" He opens his mouth, but he cannot speak. His emo-
tions overpower him — .some broken accents — the title of the document
is heard. " Simpleton," says a tremulous voice from the crowd, " the
Rev. Mr. Todd, of Trinity college, Dublin, forged and published that
document for his own diversion and that of his friends, just to see how
he could imitate the pope's Latin, but never dreaming that any man
of sense could believe that he intended to impose it on the world as a
genuine production of the pope!" McGhee was thunderstruck— the
meeting horrified, and one by one they slunk away to their homes,
muttering benedictions upon Irish bull-makers! This was diverting;
but the consequences of such diversions were not always as harmless
to ihe poor Catholics; in fact they had frequently cost them torrents
of blood. The celebrated Dr. Parr, Dr. Johnson, Nix, Whittaker, all
agree that the Catholic is the most calumniated society on earth.

My friend should know that the Latin translation of Irenaeus is good
authority, according to the soundest rules of criticism. It was made
in the lifetime of Irena;us. who wrote the preface to it himself ; by
birth a Greek, he was bishop of a Latin see, (Lyons,) and he says
he hopes the reader will excuse the roughness of his style, for he had
been so long among the Celtaj that he had lost the purity of his native
tongue. His proximity to the apostles is proof of the clearness of
the testimony in his day. Polycarp was converted in the year 80 —
and St. John lived to the close of the first century — so that John
taught Polycarp, and Polycarp taught Ironaeus. We all know why
Jacob (supplanter,) Sara (Lady,) Isaac, (laughter,) Peter, (a rock,)
were so called — was there a reason for the giving of these names to
all but Peter"? The reason my friend alleges is no/ it ,- Peter was not
the first convert, it was his brother brought him to Christ. John i.
41, 42. The word head is figurative; this remark cuts up the web
of sophistry my friend has spun around it. The pope is Peter's suc-
cessor without being all and every thing that Peter was, without being
a fisherman, a swordsman, a man of impulsiveness, a martyr. He
succeeds to all the power necessary to guide the church. The other
apostles were infallible, as my friend admits, and yet their successors
claim not to be so, individually; it is enough for every purpose of
good government that they are so when they abide in the doctrine of the
entire church. Liberius never erred in faith ; and Du Pin himself is
proof of his orthodoxy. He defended the faithful Atlianasius against
Constantius and the Arians his accusers ! And yet Mr. C. would
have us believe Liberius an Arian ! He preferred, he said, to go into
exile rather than break the ecclesiastical laws against his own consci-
ence. Is not this one of the most heroic sayings recorded of popes?
The formula he signed in exile atPerea, in Thrace, was not heretical,

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 133

but when this act was abused by the Arians, Liberius wept bitterly
for the violent interpretation the document was made to bear. The
clerrry of Rome appreciated the pontiff's magnanimity, they had no
doubt of his faith ; they would have no other pope — Felix, the crea-
ture of the emperor Constantius, they justly despised ; and, as in
every similar instance, the righteous cause prevailed ; God was
stronger than the emperor, truth than error. So did the synod ap-
prove Damasus, and reject his rival.

TerluUian was quoted about the Eucharist, and prayers for the
dead ; I will show you how his testimony is in our favor. Talking
of Corinth, Ephesus, and other cities, he says to the inquirer, if you
want to find the established doctrine and live near Corinth, go to
Corinth to find it out; if near Ephesus, to Ephesus; if near to Rome,
go to Rome, and so on. This only proves that the doctrine at all
these places was exactly the same ; but what is the argument 1 Does
it prove that all these churches were equal in authority to Rome 1
Suppose a man in New York writes to me to know what the Catholic
doctrine in any point is — I tell him he must apply to the bishop or
clergy of the churches of New York for information. Does it follow
from this that I question the preeminent authority of Rome ■? Does it
prove any thing whatever 1 It is so far in our favor that it proves a
unifurmi'ty of doclnnc — like the unity of that light which proceeds
from a common fountain.

Mr. C. is stricken with the authority of Peter — it haunts him like
a spectre througliout this discussion — it meets him at every turn and
corner of his argument, — well ! The Greek word n-Juxvi means rule,
guide, govern, as well as " feed." See Homer, passim. " nii^m xaoiv"
was the epithet applied usually to Agamemnon. Feed my lambs means
all the flock, with the subordinate pastors spread over the universal fold.
The evangelist takes care to tell us, in the parable of the temple, that
ht xpake if Ihe tanpli: rf hishodn. He explained, as St. John says, more
than all tiie books of the whole world could contain, to his disciples,
during the forty days from his resurrection to his ascension, spent, as
the scripture assures us, in speaking to them of the kingdom of God,
as he every where called his church. Mr. C. says there is no priest
since Christ. I grant it, in the sense that the high priest holds the
place of Chri.'-t, derives iiis power from Ciirist. In this sense Christ
employs the priest as his agent, and exercises by him his own priest-
hood, in which (iod the Father hath (I's. 109) confiriiK d liin» by an oath
forever. But in the sense that no such priest now exists, I cannot agree
with the gentleman, for St. Paul says, thirty years after Christ's ascen-
sion, "/t»r cvtrij liiL'h pricii lahcn front anwnir men, is ordai iif.d for men,
in the thinu,)! that ajijuriiiin hi (ind, that lie may oiler up gifts and sacri-
fices for sin. Who can havo compassion om them that are ignorant
and on, because he himself also is compassed with infirmity, and
therefore he ought, as for the people so also for himself, to oiler for
sins; neither doih any man take th<! honor to himself, but he that is
called by God as Aaron was." II<1>. eh. 5, v. 1, 2, ."?, 1. Dr-es not
all this prove a priesthood distinct from the body of christians, thirty
years after C'hrist, as it exists at present 1 Does not St. Paul say,
we have an altar of which they cannot partake who serve thi; taber-
nacle 1 Hi I), vi. 1.3, 10. And what was that altar for but for the sacri-
fices which the priests were taken from among men to offer? — [Time
cxpirerl.]
M

134 DKBATE ON THE

TUESDAY, Januauv 17tii, Half-past 9 o'clock, Jl. M.

Mr. CAMFBELLriscs —

I intend if possible, to sum up this argument on my second propo-
sition this forenoon. I coiiUl wish that iny friend, the bishop would
reply to me instead of anlicipatintr propositions in advance, and of
reading or speaking of matters wliich are wholly irrelevant. He is
even now occasionally on my first proposition ; anon, on the second ;
and instantly, on subjects which we have not agreed to debate. He
talks about my getting into thickets and circuitous labyrinths, with-
out seeming to perceive that I am in pursuit of him. He makes pro-
positions and assertions for me which i never uttered, and spends his
time in descanting upon his own misapprehensions.*

I must however, intimate to him and my audience, my purpose of
ceasing to respond to any thing he may introduce not in reply to my
speeclies. If I must lead the way ; he must follow. I cannot be de-
coyed into all the minor and remote points he may originate. I must
go on to sustain my propositions, whether he respond to them or not;
and shall appropriate half an hour occasionally to such matters in his
speeches as may call for my notice.

I cannot, therefore debate the priesthood, or any foreign topic. But
as the gentleman has again reiterated the charge, ''feed vnj sheep,""
and seems to make the whole merits of the question depend on the
meaning of the word sheep ; I will once more, and I think only once
more advert to it. It Ls universally admitted by Protestants and (Cath-
olics, that it is the duty of pastors to feed the Jioch of their charge.
If there be a common duty in the ministry of the old and new law, it
is this. But it is essential to his argument to make the word icxufos sig-
nifying sheep denote clergy. This is an extraordinary assumption.
It would be a waste of time to argue against it. Jkit that you may
see its absurdity, I will read from the Catholic version a part of the
lOtli chap, of John, substituting the bishop's definition for the term.

" He that cntcreth not by the door into the told of tlie c/erg-y, but cliiiib-
eth ups^iiie other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he that cntereth by the
door, is the pastor of'thf ckrg-ij. To this man the porter openeth, and the cler-
gy hear his voice ; and he calleth his own clergy by name, and kadeth them forth.
And when he halJi let forth his own clerg;/, he goeth before them, and the
clergy follow him, because tliey know his voice. 1 am the door of the clergy.
And how many soever have come are thieves and robbers, but the clergy heard

them not. , , , . ,.^ ^ , •

11th verse. I ani the good pastor. The good pastor giveth his life for his
clergy. But the hireling and lie that is not the pastor, whose own the clergy
are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the clergy and fleeth; and the wolf
raveneth and disperseth tlie clergy. And the hireling flccth because he is a
hireling; and he hath no care of the clergy. I am the good pastor, and I know
mine, and mine know me. As the Fatlit r knoweth me, and I know the Father;
andl yi< Id niv life for my clergy. And uthcr clergy 1 have that are not of this fold."

I s'ubmit'this without comment to the good sense of my audience.

The gentleman may find it more to his account, or he is more ac-
customed to speak to the prejudices of that part of the community

• The other day the bishop asserted that / affirmed, the apostles wrote only to
Greek cities.' This is not found in my speeches; for it is so gross an error that
I could not have uttered it, even in a dream. I request the reader to examine
my Bneeches for my own assertions; for he will frefjuently find the bishop in-
stead of meeting his opponent, demolishing men of straw of his own creation.

ROMA^ CATirOLIC KELIGIOX. 135

who rely on the authority of the Roman church without asking ques-
tions, who are told not to think or reason for themselves ; but to be-
lieve in the church — to them he may hold up his map triumphantly.
The face of Tcrtullian or Ircnecus on paper is as good to them as ten
arguments. But I speak to Protestants as well as Catholics ; and,
therefore, I mast reason, for they are a reasoning population. I ex-
pect them to decide bj- evidence, and not by autliority.

Reference has been made to Waddington, on the papal succession.
His words icere not correctly quoted by the gentleman, //zi interpre-
tation is rather an evasion of the question* It is to the succession it-
self he alludes. He cannot make it out : he acknowledges he can-
not; nor can any living man.

To resume the history of the schisms. I will read a few extracts
that I have marked in a chronological table of the popes, which will
exhibit a bird's eye glance of the fortunes of the Roman see, for lit-
tle more than a single centurj'.

1261. Alexaiidfci' IV. cli(.s June z-\. The lioly sec vacant 3 months and 3 days.
Tlie cardinals who proceeded to the ehction, not being able to pitch on one
among thenisehe^, chose I'inncis, patriarch of Jerusalem, who takes upon
him the name of Urban IV. and is consecrated Sept. 4.
1265. After a vacancy of four months, cardinal Guy, the Gross, born in Provence,
is elected pope, Feb. 5, and consecrated March 18, under the name of Cle-
ment I\'.
1268. Clement IV. dies Oct. 29. The holy see lies vacant for two years, nine

months, and two dajs.
1271. The cardinals after a long debate on Sept. l,by waj- of compromisal
elected Thibald, arch deacon of Liege, native of I'laccnzia, who was then at
I'tolemais.

1276. Gregory X. dies Jan. 10. Peter of Tarentaise, cardinal bishop of Oslia, is
elected the 21st. under the name of Iimocent V. After his death, wliich
happened June the 2d. cardinal Ottobon, a Cienocse, is elected in his place,
July the 12th, and takes upon him the name of Adrian V. He dies at Viter-
bo, Aug. 10. without having been consecrated. Twenty-five days after,
cardinal John Peter, the son of Julian, a Portuguese, is elected and consecra-
ted. Sept, 1.5, under the name of John XXI.

1277. John XXI. is crushed by the fall of the ceiling of the palace of Viterbo,
and dies May the 20tli. iVov. 25, John Cojestaii is elected, and takes the
name of Nicholas III. and consecrated Dec. 26.

12)10. jNicliolaixlies Aug. 22. The holy see is vacant six months.

1267. lionorius IV. dies on April !i. 'I he holy see vacant till April of tJie next

year.
1292. IN'icholas die* on April 4. The holy gee vacant two years three months

and two days.

1304. The death of Benedict July 0. The holy see remained vacant till the
next year.

1305. Clement V. is chosen pope June .'>. He is crowned at Lyons IVov. 11,
and resides in France.

1328. Lewis of Havaria causes Michael (.'orbario to be chosen anti-pope, who
fiiken the nanir: of .Nicholas V. and is enthroned May 12. He was driven
out of fltimc, Aug. 4.

1378. Gregory XL died March 27tli. The cardinals entered the conclave at
Rome, April 7th. The Koman) refpiired a Koman or an Italian pojie. The
arrh-binhopof Paris is chosen in a tumultuous iiimiiikt, April 9lh,iiiid crowned
the I7lh. under the name of Urban VI. The cardinals (1^- into Aiiagnia in
Mov, and prtjtmt against the « lection of Urban. They came to Kondi
August the 27tli, enter the conclave, and chose, .September 20lli, the cardi-
nal of fienrvn, who took the name of {'lenient Vll. wliirli caused a schisnt
in the church.

1379. Clement VTIF. flics to Naples, nud from thence goes to Avignon, where
he arrived .'une 10. 'I'he conipetitom for thi' papacy condemn one another.
Dn Pin. — }'ol. II.

136 DEBATE ON THE

Touchinrr all that the gentleman has said or may say of the authen-
ticity of Du Pin, I observe that the reporters have recorded my de-
fence of his reutpation. They will also have stated the fact that I
only quote him as authentic on such matters as all other historians tes-
tify. I will not then repeat the same defence again and again.

I know, indeed, that what is authentic with .lansenists may be he-
terodox with Jesuits, and vice versa. When the Romanists are
hard pressed, they have no English authentic historians. And when
we quote a Latin one, we are sure to err in the translation. Bellar-
mine is repudiated by one party ; even Barronius is sometimes disal-
lowed. Still being in Latin, he is more authentic than any other.
We shall therefore take from him a few words in confirmation of what
we read from the Decretals of Du Pin. Barronius, vol. vi. p. 5G2, A. D.
498, tells us that the emperor's faction sustained the election of Lauren-
tius to the papacy. Li this struggle " murders, robberies and numberless
evils, were perpetrated at Rome," Nay such were the horrible scenes
that, says Barronius, " there was a risk of their destroying the whole
city." In the schism between popes Sylverius and Vigilius in the
sixth century, the latter, though an atrociously wicked man, " impli-
cated," says Barronius, " in so many crimes" that all virtuous men
opposed him, was raised to the papal chair. Yet this man was pro-
nounced a good pope. Barronius says he is not to be despised though
a bad man. Let every man recollect, "says he, that even to the sha-
dow of Peter, immense virtue was given of God!" (Bar. vol. vii.
p. 420.)

'In the midst of contentions which rent the Roman Catholic church,
pope Pelagiu3 I. was chosen. This pope approved the council which
pope Vigilius had condemned. This increased the flames of eccle-
siastical war to such a degree tliat the pope could not find a bishop of
Rome, who could consecrate him ; and he was constrained to beg a
priest of Ostium to do this service; "a thing," says Barronius, "which
never had occurred before." (Vol. vii. p. 475.)

The popes Formosus and Stephen lived in the ninth century. The
latter, says Barronius, was so wicked, that he would not have dared
to enroll him in the list of popes, were it not that antiquity gives his
name. In the exercise of papal infallibility, he not only rescinded
the ac/s and decrees of his infallible predecessor Formosus; but collec-
ting a council of cardinals and bishops as bad as himself, he actually
had the old pope taken out of his grave; and he brought him into
court, tried, and condemned him ; cut oft' three of his fingers ; and
plunged his remains into the Tiber. See Platina's' life of Stephen
Vl. and Barronius do.'

'Barronius under the j'ear 1004, names three rival popes, who per-
petrated the most shameful crimes, and bartered the papacy, and sold
It for gold. He, though a Roman Catholic writer, calls them Cerber-
us, the three headed beast which had issued from the gates of
hell !'

Hear his words in his life of pope Stephen VII. A. D. 900. ' The
case is such, that scarcely any one can believe it, unless he sees it
with his eyes, and handles it with his hands, viz. what unworthy,
vile, unsightly, yea, execrable and hateful things the sacred apostolic
see, on whose hinges the universal apostolical church turns, has been
compelled to see, &c.'

' Genbrard in his chronicles, under the year 904 says, " for nearly

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 137

150 years, about fifty popes deserted wholly the virtue of their predeces-
sors, being apostate rather than apostolical !'

'And to crown the climax, Barronius, under the year 912 adds :
'• What is then the face of the holy Roman church ! How exceed-
ingly foul it is ! When most potent, sordid and abandoned women,
(Meretices,) ruled at Rome: at whose will the sees were changed;
bishops were presented ; and what is horrid to hear, and unutterable,
P'alse Pontiffs, the paramours of these women, were intruded into
the chair of St. Peter, &c." He adds, — " For who can affirm that
men illegally intruded by bad women, (scortis) were Roman pontiffs !"
Again : " The canons were closed in silence ; the decrees of pontiff's
were suppressed : the ancient traditions were proscribed ; and the sa-
cred ceremonies and usages of former days were wholly extinct.
See his Annals A, D. 912.'*

Again : he relates that pope Alexander was elected by cardinals,
some of whom were bribed, some allured by promises of promotion,
and some enticed by fellowship in his vices and impurities to give
him their suffrages. He refers to various authors who complained
that he was famous for his debauchery ; he tells us of his vile exam-
ple in keeping a Roman strumpet Vanozia, by whom he had many
children; that he conferred wealth and honors on them, and even cre-
ated one of them, Ca'sar Borgia (an inordinately wicked man) arch-
bishop of the church. Vid. Bar. Annals, vol. xix. p. 413 et seq.

'The same writer (vol. ix. p. 145) records the election of Bene-
dict IX. at the age of twelve years, which he says was accom-
plished by gold, and he calls it (" horrendum ac detestabile visu")
" horrible and detestable to behold ;" and yet he adds that the whole
christian world acknowledged Benedict, without controversy, to be a
true pope '.

Stephen vii. The unparalleled wickedness of this pope is conveyed in a sin-
gle line : [//a quidem passiis f.icinorus homo quique utyur et latro ingressus est
in ovilc avium, laqueo vitam acleo ivfami exilti vindicc Deo clausit.'] " Thus per-
ished this \jllanous man, who entficd tlie sheepfuld as a tliief and a robber; and
who in the retribution of God, ended liis days by the infamous death of the hal-
ter." (Bar. vol. X. p. 742.)

Again, Barronius says of the 10th century :

" VVhat then was the face of t!if Roruaii chiiri'h .' How very filthy, when th«
most powerful Jind iit)rdid iiarlots then ruled at Rome, at whose pleasure sees
were chanecd and bishoprics were given, and — which is horrible to hear, and
most abominable — tln;ir gnllants wcri- olitruded into the see of Peter, and made
Jiilse popes ; for who can say they could be lawful popes, who were intruded by
such harlots without law ? There was no mention of the election or consent
of clergy; the canons were silent, the decrees of popes suppressed, the ancient
traditions proscribed, — lust armed with tlie secular power, challenged all
things to itself

What kind of Cardinals, do you imagine must then be chosen by those men-
«ters, when nothing is so natural as for like to beget like ? who can doubt, but they
in all things did consent to those tli:it chose them ? Who will not easily believe
that they animaterl them and followed their footsteps 7 Who unfierstands not,
that such men must wish that our Lord would have slept continually, and never
have awoke to judgment to take cognizance of, and punish their inioiiities." Ann.
Vol. X. 912.

Now if the grntlrman objects to any of lliesc quotatinn.s which 1
have hastily, but I believe most correctly made: the originals are

* Brownlec'g Letters on Rom. Cath. controversy, pp. 36, 37,38.
m2 18

133 DJb'UATK 0.\ THE

here and let them be examined : For, these beintr admitted it is use-
less to object to Du Pill, who never uses so severe lan.n[uage against
the popes as Raronius and Genebrand, Platina and others.

Finally on this subject. I'^or seventy years, there was no pope in
Rome, besides all the oilier interregnums. The pope resided at Avig-
non in France and left .St. Peter's chair empty. For almost half a
centur}' there were two popes, and two lines of popes existing at one
time — one reigning in Italy, and one in France. And at last there
were three popes — Benedict XIII. the Spanish pope, Gregory XII. the
French pope, and John XXIII. the Italian pope. Then the council of
Constance met — A. D. 1 HI, and made a fourth, or true pope, and depos-
ed the three anti-popes. Such was the 99th schism in the papacy ! Is
there, — may I not ask with all these facts before us, — Is there any
man on earth that can have the least confidence in any pope as the
successor of Peter? A thousand questions the most learned and in-
tricate, which no living bishop has time or means to examine, must
be decided before he could rationally or religiously believe that the
succession from Peter has any existence at all : or, in truth, it cannot
be believed but upon mere authority !

We now proceed to show that there has been no fixed and uniform
method of electing the popes. Indeed history and tradition furnish
us with no less than seven difl'erent methods.

1. Irenffius says, ' that tradition said, that Peter appointed his suc-
cessor.' And if he did, why do not all the popes follow his exam-
ple 1 for Irenasus is as good authority for this, as for that concerning
the founding of the church of Rome.

2. The priests and people are said to have often elected the first
popes ; or, rather the bishops nominated and the people elected. — I
ought to have observed distinctly, that there is as much sophistry in
the word pope as ever was played ofl" on earth. The word pope, in
the east was first applied to all bishops, and is so used in Russia to
this day. It was in the 5th century applied to the senior bishops and
metropolitans of the west. But it was not until the time of Gregory
VII. that it was exclusively appropriated by his own innovation, to the
bishops of Rome.

Hence, in this variety of acceptation, popes many were always in
the church, and were elected b)' the people. But the persons first
called popes and those now wearing the title, have no other resem-
blance than the common name.

3. The emperors nominated and bishops elected, and the emperors
appointed on their own responsibility.

4. Leo VIII. transferred the whole power of choosing the pope to
the emperor, being tired with the inconstancy of the Romans.

5. Barronius in his Annals, 112, 8, and sect. 141, 1, says, 'They
(the popes) were introduced by powerful men and women. // was
frequently the price of prostitution !^

G. By the decree of pope Nicholas II. in his La^teran Synod : 'The
whole business was given over to the cardinals, an order of men, not
heard of for 1000 years after Christ. The popes now make the
cardinals, and the cardinals make the pope. What a glorious repub-
lic ! My friend, a staunch republican, agrees that a few men in
Rome should elect a head for the universal church ! But sometimes —

7. General councils (as that of Constance, Pisa and Basil) took
upon themselves the making of popes, and, as we have seen, made a

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 139

fourth pope, when there were already three acknowledged by different
parts of the church. Can these facts be denied ? They canmot mid
I presume, will not.

It is now affirmed that the intrigues of papal elections incompara-
bly surpass the intrigues of any court oh earth. The politics of
France, of Italy, of Austria, are so incorporated with the schemes of
the cardinals, or so bias or bribe them, that on the election of a pope,
it is usually said, " Austria has succeeded" or " Spain," or " France
has prevailed this time !" In one word, the papal chair is the most
corrupt and corrupting institution, that ever stood on earth. The Ro-
man Cesars, or the Egyptian dynasties, were pure and incorrupt, com-
pared with this mammoth scheme of iniquit)-. On the whole premi-
ses, I ask, would the head of the church so jeopardize all the interests
of his kingdom as to make the popes of Rome, or faith in them es-
sential elements of his system of redemption, or necessary to the sal-
vation of any human being] ! —

To recapitulate. — This being a fundamental and primary essential
element of the Roman church, I have labored it more than any other ;
and yet I have not said a tithe of what may be said, or even what I
have to say on the subject. But I have aimed at establishing four points
in demonstrating this proposition. And to adopt the positive and
dogmatic style of my learned opponent, may I not say that / have
fully proved- —

1. That the office of pope, or supreme head on earth, has no scrip-
ture warrant or authority whatever. Indeed, that the whole beau ideal
of a church of nations, with a monarchical head, (which, in the es-
timation of the liishop, is equivalent to the word church of Christ,) is as
gratuitous an assumption as ever graced a romance, ancient or modern.—

2. That it cannot be ascertained that Peter was ever bishop of Rome
— nay, indeed, it has been shown, that it is wholly contrary to the
New Testament history, and incompatible with his office. —

3. That Christ gave no law of succession. —

4. That if he had, that succession has been destroyed by a long
continuance of tlie jjreatest monsters of crime that ever lived ; and by
cabals, intrigues, violence, envy, lust, and schisms, so that no man can
believe that one dro|) of apostolic grace is cither in the person or office
of Cregory XVI. the present nominal incumbent of Peter's chair!
It would be now as easy to prove that Solomon's mosque built by the
Turks, is Solomon's tf inplf, in which .lesus Christ stood; as that the
popes or church oi Honir' is a christian institution.

On what, now, rests Koman ( -atiioijcism ? ! If the foundation be
destroyed, how can the building stand 1 I need not tell my opponent
that this is a blow at the root of his apostolic tree. He feels it, and
I am (jlad to think that if any American bishop can sustain these pre-
tensions, my learned opponent is that man. He has asked, and ho
rnay again ask, where was the Protestant cliurch before Luther's time?
In reply, I ;isk, where was the pope before; Constantino's time?
He brought Mosheim to offset Waddington and Jones on the subject
of the Novatians. And what did Mosheim prove contrary lo theao
historians ? Yon have lieard with what success my o|)ponent seeks
lo tarnish the reputation of Novatians, Waldenses and I'rotestajits.
As a general offs(;t to all his declamation on this subject, I will give
you the testimony of a t;ood Roman Catholic : for he was an iTujuLiilor
— I mean Ricneriua Saccho, one of tlie most inveterate enemies of

1-10 DEBATE ON THE

these old fashioned Protestants. I have the original before me, but
shall not read it unless it be required : The translation reads :

"Aiiion;^ all t!ic sects" (th(Me wire sects, you peictivc, before the Reforma-
tion) " which still are, orhave bci n, there is not one more pernicious ty the church
than that of the Leonites;" (a name by whicii the VVaklenscs were sometimes
called,) "anil that for three reasons. The 1st is, because it is the oldest, for
some say it hath existed from the time of pope Sylvester; olhcrsj'iom the lime
of the Apostles. The 2nd, because it is more general, for there is scarce any
connfry tohere this sect is not. The 3rd, because wlien all others sects beget
horror by their blasjjliemies against (i!)d,this of the Leoiii*< s hath a great slio'u
of piety because thev Wvc justly bijbremcji, and believe all thins^s rightly con-
cerning God and all the articles contained in the creed. Only they blas-
phemed the church of Rome." Rein. .S'nn/iO. edit. Gritzcr, O. S. J. cap. 4.
page 54

I could-.give much more Roman Catholic testimony in proof that the
doctrines of Protestantism continued from the days of the first Roman
schism till now : but this at present would seem superfluous. Nor
will I speak now of tlie old English and Irish churches which the
Roman bishops sought in vain for many centuries to bring into their
fold. There is nothing betrays a less discriminating regard to the
facts of ecclesiastical history, than to ask where was the church be-
fore the days of Luther 1 — But I hasten to the point yet before me,
which, like some others, I may not remember, was reserved for a more
convenient season. It was an objection drawn in part from Eph. iv.
11, and from the alleged difficulty of obtaining a ministry but
through the popes of Rome.

This passage, viewed in common with Matth. xxviii. 18, 19, seems to
me, rather to remove all difficulty on the sui)ject. Matth. xxviii. gives
all authority to the apostles to set up the christian church, and pro-
mises them miraculous aid, till the work was done. " I am with you
continually till the conclusion of thi.^ stale — sac t>ic a-uvnAtsa! t'.v aiwvsf. Of
which I must here speak more particularly. At present it suffices to
repeat the fact of such a commission, and such a promise to the
apostles.

Now let us hear Paul. When Christ ascended, "he s;ave gifts to
men." — What, let me ask, were they ] " He gave apostles, prophets,
evangelists, pastors, and teachers" — all miraculously endowed. They
were not raised up, out of the church ; but given directly from heaven
to the church, or for building a cliurcb ! What, again, let me ask
Paul, were they given for] "For the perfecting of the saints:" or,
according to the Douay bible, " for the consummation of the saints
unto the work of the ministry, unto the edifying of the body of Christ."
And for how long, let me ask, still more empnatically ] " Until" (it
is Mi/_gi in Greek, donee in Latin, adverbs expressive of the time how
long) " Until we all come into the unity of the faith and knowledge
of the Son of God, to a perfect man''' (not men — that is, to a perfect
body) " into the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ." — The
Roman church being judge, then, these officers were given to the church
after the ascension, for a special work, and for a limited time. — Till,
out of Jews and Gentiles, they had made one pehfect man, or church.

Now, these apostles acted in exact accordance with the nature of
the case. They preached, baptized, and congregated disciples, in
particular places. These disciples had, from the nature of the case,
to receive from them the whole christian institution. They knew
neither what to believe or do, but as they were taught by these in-
spired men. — Hence, the apostles preached, baptized, taught, served

RO:aAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 141

tables, and dispensed all ordinances, and performed all oiRces among
them, till the body of the church had learned its dut}-. Then they
taught them to select from among them'selves certain officers — gave
them the qualifications, and showed them in their own persons how
they were to be set apart and ordained to these offices. — For example,
the deacons, or public servants of the church of Jerusalem, the 7nother
church. Again, they taught them to send out missionaries or evan-
gelists, as in the church of Antioch ; and finally, to ordain elders or
bishops over the flock, as soon as they had persons qualified for that
office, — They taught the church, then, to have bishops and deacons,
and evangelists (or general missionaries, as the case may be). They
gave the law, the qualifications, and the mode of inducting them into
office. They never taught any one church to depend always upon
Jerusalem, or Antioch, or Rome, or Corinth; but they taught the ne-
cessity of all these offices — gave the qualifications of the officers, and
assisted in ordaining them in many particular congregations, of which
congregations with the same laws, authority, and order, there never
have been wanting thousands from that day till now.

Order has its foundation in nature. The highest officers were call-
ed seniors or ciders ; because of their age ; and bishops or overseers,
because of their office. Deacons, not having so much authority and
glory, and not having a salary, like bishops, there never has been
among them any controversy about succession ! But had there been
any great honor or reward iii that office, we should doubtless have had
as much ado about an unbroken line ; and could as easily find one in
this case as in that of the bishops of Rome, or Constantinople. The
same order obtained in the christian cliurch — I mean, substantially,
that obtained in the synagogues of the Jews. The same word
WfWoi/TWiv or presbytery, is found in the New Testament in reference
to both the synagogue and the church. " Stir up the gift," office " that
is in thee, by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery." Indeed,
the synagogue, mucli more than the tabernacle or temple, was the
archetype of the order, which the apostles set up. In every case the
question was put to tlic people, " Look out, choose out, select from
among yourselves," &.c.

My friend is almost a Protestant on some points. He occasionally
recommends the bible to his flock, and he says that tlie ordinances of
religion do not receive tlieir virtue from an uiilu>!y or holy pope — that
he has his authority to administer from Ciirist rather than from the
pope.

Indeed, I know not why the spirit of God should be promised
through such a wretched and polluted channel as the po])es of liome,
rather than to operate from hr>aveii in all its holy influences upon those,
who by its appointment, are chosen and ordained by prayer, fasting,
and imposition of hands, as deacons or bishops of the christian con-
gregations. We lose nothing then, in abandoning the leaky and
sinking ship of pontifical authority in the Roman ("albolic church. —
[Time expired.]

Ilft/f-past. 10 o'clock, Jl. M.
liisiiop Pi;ucEi.i. riic» —

IMy friend has sot me the example of recajiilulating. I shall not
fail to do so in due time. He has talked around one of the invincible
texts of Scripture which i had adduced for Peter's headahip : " Simon,

142 DEBATE ON THE

Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, (the plural) that he
may sift you as wheat :. but I have prayed for thee, that thv faith
fail not; and thou, Ijciiijr converted, confirm thy brethren." St. Luke
xxii. 32. And he gratuitously asserts that " Confirm" here means only
" Comfort." But will any man say that such an interpretation has
weakened the force of my ar<Tumcnt from the text, or destroyed the
avowed effect and object of the Savior's prayer, namely that the faith
of Peter should never fail, and that, in it, he should confirm his bre-
thren 1 Let him shew that Christ addressed a special prayer, for any
similar purpose, in favor of all, or of any of the other apostles, and
then he may summon Christ's appointed chief of the apostolic band,
to surrender his preeminence. If he cannot do this, Peter must for
ever retain his supremacy — not of age, nor of talents, nor of priority
of call, nor of conversion, but of office.

He again asserts, for Mr. C. seems to tliink we must grant every
thing to his assertions, that I cannot find a solitary proof in Irenscus,
or in any other author of christian antiquity, that Peter was ever bish-
op of Rome. Now in p. iG9 of this Protestant edition of Irenaeu3
we find that warrant. It is in chap, L book 3, "against heresies,"
He speaks as follows :

"For we have not learned the disposition, or ccoiiom_v, of our salvation fioin
any othtrs than those through whom the gospel came unto us, which, iudeefl,
they first preached, and afterwards, by tlie will of God, delivered to us in writ-
ing, to be the pillar and ground of our faith. Nor is it hivvful to say, as-some
do, who pretend to correct the apostles, that thoy preached before they had had
perfect knowledge. For after the Lord had arisen from the dead, they were
clothed with virtue from on high by the Holy Spirit who came down upon them,
and they were filled with all knowledge and attained to perfect understanding;
they went to the ends of the earth announcing to us the good things which are
from God, and proclaiming heavenly peace to men, having both all and each of
them the gospel of God. Thus Matthew, in their own language, wrote the
gospel scripture in Hebrew, while Teter and Paul were evangelizing and found-
ing the church of Rome. After their departure, Mark, a disciple, and Peter's
interpreter, likewise announced to us the prescribed doctrines; next John, the
disciple of the Lord, who also reposed on his breast, published likevvise a gospel,
residing at Ephesus, in Asia. And all these delivered to us the doctrine of One
God, the Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the Lord and the prophets,
and one Christ, the Son of God; to whom, he who assenteth not, despiseth the
partakers of the Lord, despiseth Christ the Lord, despiseth the Father, and is
condemned by himself, for he resisteth and opposeth his own salvation, which
all heretics do."

Tracing the succession of bishops in the same chair, he always make Peter tlic
first bishop, as I have already shewn from the very next page — 170, of this
volume.

There is Irenaeus, a writer of the 2d century — year 150. I shall
follow the devious track of the gentleman as well as I can.

My friend denied that I could adduce a solitary testimony to prove
that the legate of the pope presided over the first great general coun-
cil of the church, after the council at Jerusalem. Now I am going
to adduce Baronius, p. 295, year of Christ 325, year of Sylvester 12,
Constantine 20 : (how faithful and exact our ("atholic histories are !)
" Before we proceed to narrate the history of the acts of tiie IVicene council,
I pray you, friendly reader, to pause with me, to notice the most eminent prelates
ot that illustrious company of saints, that most flowery crown of fathers, and most
distinguished assemblage of holy bishops, whose names shine forth from amidst
the obscurity of so ancient a period. He who first attracts our attention, con-
spicuous for having been twice legate, is Osius, bishop of Cordova, in Spain, re-
presenting the bishops of Spain, and, as we have already said, holding the place
(the Latin is still stronger — personam gerens — personating) Sylvester, bishop of

K03IAN CATHOilC RELIGION. 143

Rome, atid chief of the legstes, hi^ colleagues. Isoh, continues Baronius, what
good ground could there liave iseen for Osius' '■igning before his colleagues, the
re<»^tes, before the bishops of the second and third sees of the christian world,
viz. Alexandria and Antioch, and before Coerilian, the primate of all Africa, not
to speak of others, unless h*" held the place and represented the person of the
highest power of all? He then quotes the roininenceuient of tlie letter which
the legates, immediately after the council, addressed to the pope: "To Sylves-
ter, most blessed pope of the city of Rome, and entitled to all reverence, Osius,
bishop of the province of Spain' and city of Cordova, Victor and Vincentius,
priests of the city of Rome, appointed by your direction," &c. &c. So far
Baronius.

Nat. Ales, says, vol. vii. p. 68, " The synod of Nice, first of the oecunienicals,
was convoked by the emperor Constantine, with consent of the Roman poutitf, Syl-
vester — the president of the council, in the name of St. Sylvester, a;id his le-
gates were Osius, bishop ofCor^lova, \'itusor \ito,and Vincentius, priesti," Arc.tc.
It was the custom of the bishop of Rome to send a bishop and two
inferior ecclesiastics to represent him in the councils. Osius was
legate and Victor and Vincentius were his two assistants.

Natalis Alexander says the same, p. G8, 7 vol. Fleur}', another most
authentic historian, a man of prodigious learning, a contemporary of Bos-
suet, and one who has been very severe against the popes, so that we
have quarreled with him for it, says the same, p. 107 and 108. He adds :
"St. Athanasius says that O.-ius jin sided at all the. councils, and it is certain
that he preside-! at the council of Sardica, twenty two years later."

Now we cannot sec why a simple bishop of Cordova should have presided,
by any right of his, over all the bishops ot the world, even those of Alexandria
and Antioch, who were present in person — Gelasius of Cyzicum says expressly
that Osius held the place of SyKester, bishop of imperial Rome, with the priests
Victor (or Vito, as he was also called) and Vincentius: and his testimony should
not be suspected, as he was a Greek and writing the acts and records ol Greeks.
Subseouent usage is conforn)able to whr.t is here observed. — In the acumenical
councils whose acts have come do«n to us, we see the papal legates at the head,
and they are ronmionlv, a bishop :jnd two priests."

Here are Baronius, Noel Alexander, Flenry. — The gentleman says
that I deal in rhetoric, but he may say what he pleases ; I deal in
nothing but stubborn facts. These are the irresistible arguments by
which Catholic truth is upheld.

As for Peter's executing the decrees of the coimcil of Jerusalem,
I said no such thing. He acted with the rest — but he did, I main-
tain, lead, and his authority was wanting to give sanction to every
decree. When he spoke, the " much di-ipulini^''^ ceased. He spoke
humbly, but autlioritatively, James and Paul and Barnabas acquiesced.
The opposition to his £^f;i/?7fA/;ii^ was wrong and much in the spirit of
more modern oppo-^^ilicri, i)ut Peter's authority tlien as it lias ever done
prevailed ; for if any tiling is certain in historical testimony, it is proved
that his authority was acknowledged to reside, in ancient days, in
his successors. So is it now acknowledged. We were referred to
10. John, wliere Christ speaks of the fold and the sheep; and ob-
jections were made to rny interpretation of the words " lambs" and
" sheep," as contradictory and absurd. But now mark, my friends.
the signal difference between the two passages. In 10. Joiin, the
Savior speaks of s/itrp alnnc. He says the sheep are scattered, and
never mehlions Imnhn. V\ bin therefore (/hrist says in the otiu r jias-
sage, feed my lambs, do we not remark that lir; afterwards cliangf;9
the j)assag<; and says, ferul my sheep ! arid as I observed yesterday
Christ means pastors, by the sheep whom the lambs, follow.
Wide as the world, is Christ's fold — and there are over its va-
rious provinces, or pastures, many siuphcrds, but one above the

144 DEBATE ON THE

rest, whose duty it is to watch over them all, to see they do their duty.
— This is Peter, this is reasonable, it is as it ought to be. Thus, the
rock, the keys, the charge to confirm his brethren, the acknowledge-
ment of Paul that he went to see Peter, lest he might have run in vain,
the acknowledgment of the authority of Peter's successors, the very
necessity of such an office to keep order, &c. All this is proof positive
from scripture and history and reason, of the supremacy of the chair
of Peter, and not rlietoric — or if so, it is logical rhetoric. Let not
scripture, history and reason be thus dismissed in the nineteenth cen-
tury, with a wave of the hand.

That eternal Du Pin, my friends, you have had my reasons against
his authenticity as a Catholic historian : certainly he is no testimony
against the Catholics. All my friend can adduce to prove that the au-
thenticity of Du Pin was ever recognized in this country, is that some
Catholic paper in Kentucky, as he says, allows his authenticity —
"Who the editor of this paper is, I know not. He may be a respectable
Catholic. The bishop of Bardstown has nothing to do with it, the
editor is liable to be deceived. His opinion ought to have no weight
whatsoever in this controversy.

What led my friend into such an error respecting the book itself,
was, probably his seeing prefixed to it the censor's license for its im-
pression; but he should have known that the king of France appoints
such persons as he thinks fit, to examine whether publications con-
tain any thing dangerous to the state. And Louis Philip is more
strict in this respect than ever Charles X. was, who was exiled
from France for the same thing.

The Doctors of Sorbonne, to whom the work was submitted, may
have said the book contained nothing against faHh and morals. Tliey
do not say that he is an authentic Catholic historian. We apply criticism
to every work, and our maxim is nullius addictus jurnre in verba ma-
gistri. The opinions of two or three Doctors of Sorbonne form
no rule of faith for Catholics, although, in this instance, they say
nothing, I presume, to which we may not very safely assent, while
we describe Du Pin in his proper colors. After all Du Pin says noth-
ing that does not go to prove my views, if considered fairly, al-
though he was expelled the Sorbonne for heterodox opinions !

Now there were vacancies, breaks, in the chain, but the lapse of
a few years; before binding together the links of the apostolic succes-
sion, does not affect the great principle for which I am contending.
We are no believers in metempsychosis: or that, like the supposed divinity
of the Lama of Thibet, the soul of a deceased pope goesby ahop, skip
and jump, right off, into his successor. We will wait six months, or six
years, to find a good pope. Time is taken for this, since so much de-
pends on the result. Now in this chain were some bad popes; we
weep over the fact, my friends, and lament it. Mr. C. ought to have
thrown the mantle over his shoulders and walked backwards with me
and covered these frailties, for the sake of our common Christianity.
The mass of the succession is sound. But there were some bad points.

It is not the narne,h\\i the religion tliey represented, that we regard.
Whether the stream of testimony came to us through conduits of
gold, of silver, or of brass, it is not the channel of communication we
regard, but the pure chrystal and transparent waters of celestial doc-
trine, of divine truth. Men are liable to err — Jesus Christ said there
must needs be scandals. We look for them ; we expect them to occur

ROMAK CATHOLIC REtlGIOX. 145

while there is yet remaining one single human being on this earth.
None but God is perfect and man is good only by divine assistance.
I have no special apology to offer for a pope who is a bad man. He
should be the pattern of the flock from the heart. He should be the
salt of the earth — the light of the world. He should remember that
the " mighty shall be mightily tormented ;" and that " a most severe
judgment shall be for them that bear rule if they walk not according to
the law." I should notbesurprisedif these bad popeswereatthis moment
expiating their crimes in the penal fires of hell. But what is the pro-
per inference to be deduced from their melancholy aberrations 1 If
they like Lucifer have fallen, bright light, from the firmament of re-
ligion, do the heavens no longer proclaim the glory of God 1 Do
the praises of God resound there no more 1 Why it is truly wonder-
ful, that, bad men as they were, they should not only have never se-
vered themselves from the faith but should have been the instru-
ments of perpetuating sound doctrine at home and abroad. Nothing,
my friends, gives me more faith in the genuineness and truth of our
holy religion, than when in reviewing the history of these disgraceful
enormities, I find the church, in the very midst of scandal, enough to
blacken and overthrow any earthly institution, still supported and up-
held by the almighty hand of God. A church that has stood through
all that the genrieman has laid to the charge of the merely mortal
men who have presided for a season over its destinies. A few of

THEM ERRED IN MORALS, KVT NOXE OF THEM IN FAITH ; SOUnd doCtrine

and sound morals were seen and admired, during these sad eclipses,
and infidel nations were, during that passing obscurity in Rome, re-
joicing in the beams of the orient sun of justice, heralded by Catho-
lic missionaries. Let this be borne in mind when my learned oppo-
nent undertakes to j)rove tliat the pope is the sea-serpent! And let
my Protestant friends understand that the Roman Catholics detest
immorality as much as Ihey can, wherever it may be found : and most
of all, where superior virtue was required by exalted station. We
too had labored for a reformation, not of God's truth, for it needed
none, but of men's morals which are always liable to corruption.
We may cry out like the ajJOSlU's, wiien we Ijehold such scandals, O
Lord, save us ere we perish — but we hear the divine answer, " why
fear ye, G you of little faith." No cloud has ever vet impended

OVER the church, THAT THE RAINBOW OF PROMISE DID NOT SHINE
THRdUOH THE GLOOM.

The ohjrcl of the institution of the church being no other than to
establish the true worship r>f (Jod, by thi; ovrrtbrow of idolatry, and
to sanctify a chosen people for everla-sting life, by the purest virtues
of religion, we are not to wonder that Satan, the jealous enemy of
human luip|)ines8, should exert his utmost powers to obstruct the be-
nevohMit design. In fulfilment of the Savior's prediction, and from
the very nature; of man, it was necessary that persecutions, heresies,
schisms and domestic scandals should happen; but .lesus (^lirisl had
likewise foretold that they should not prevail. The Pagan tyrants of
the earth may rage; the courage and jiatience of our martyrs will tri-
umph and multiply. I[('resi{!s may start u|) in various forms, and
for a while seduce thousands into errr)r ; they will, at bnglli, sink
back again into the dark abyss from which thry first emerged. Gui-
ded by the spirit of truth, and confirmed into the unity of her belief,
the church will ever successfully oppose to their impotent attempts,

N 19

MO DKnATi: o> rni:

the promises of her divine Founder, the antiquity of her faith, the con-
sent of nations, the order of hor hierarchy, the holy severity of her
discipline, the hrirrht example of thousands of her faillifiil children,
the sacred history of her doctrines, and the decisions of her councils.
Schisms may at times perplex and divide the faithful, but the church
by her authority will either close the breach, or separate the refracto-
ry members from her communion. The vicious lives of some of her
children may contradict and disgrace their christian profession, they
may violate her laws, they may insult her authority, and invade her
sacred rights ; they never will he able to overturn her ministry, to
shake her hierarchy or to alter her doctrine. She will never cease to
warn sinners of their duty, to correct, to instruct, to direct mankind
in the way of salvation.

By her persevering zeal for God's honor, by the force of her ex-
hortations, by the solemnity of her public service, by the morality of
her precepts, and by her practice of the evangelical counsels, she will
continue to prepare souls for heaven, while she exhibits to the world
a rich assemblage of the most heroic virtues. It is thus, that our his-
tory attests the care which God has taken of his church.

The whole number of popes has been nearly two hundred and sixty
Of these, the first forty were saints, or martyrs, a small number only, not
more than twenty, can be called bad men ; the rest were remarkable
for eminent virtue, charity, zeal, learning and patronage of letters.
Peter was twenty-five years bishop of Rome ; and non videhis annos
Petri, you w'ill not be pope as long as Peter — is a proverb which
every new pope hears. Pius VI. and Pius VII, came nearest to the
years of Peter, but they did not attain them. But says the gentle-
man, the pope transferred his sec for some time from Rome, to
Avignon. I grant it; but have I not said, were he a wanderer in A-
byssinia, he would still retain his title and authority.

We were told of a council which cashiered three popes, and made
a fourth ! My friends, what sophistry is this? Does my friend think
he is addressing people but one remove from barbarism, instead of the
enlightened and liberal citizens of the queen of the west? I wish him
to understand that we, at least, are equal to the people of Bethany in
intelligence. Among these citizens, I thank God, my lot is cast.
Does Mr. C. — suppose thai they cannot answer his sophistry by the
true statement of the fact 1 The council cashiered three doubtful popes,
or rather no popes at all, and elected one true pope. What has become
of his logic T

Stephen VI. had thebody of Formosus dug up and cut off his fingers.
My friend has taken this from Pope and McGuire's discussion, and has
seen the answer there. In this unpardonable act of Stephen, we at
least discern zeal for the rules of discipline, which forbade the trans-
ferring of a bishop from one see to another. For this offence the need-
less act of severity was done. It shews the popes expose what they
think wrong in popes ; just as my friend would know nothing of their
misdeeds, if Catholic historians had not had sincerity, piety and zeal
to denounce them. Genebrard said that the popes were more often
apostates than apostles. I am sure that, in this case, truth was sac-
rificed to wit, and faithful testimony to virtue as well as faithful ex-
position of vice, for the gingle between the words apostates and
apostles. But Genebrard says not, absolutely, they were apos-

BOMAN CATHOLIC BELIGION. 147

tates, but that they had fallen short of the virtues of their predeces-
sors.

My friend quarrels with the name, cardinals. The name is Latin and
as old as that language. But I will not contend for the name. He
says the cardinals, were not so called for 1000 years, but did not show
his authority. This was, however, the title given to priests charged
with the care of large churches, as far back as the year 150, or at
least in 300. But call them what you may, they were a portion, and
an eminent portion, of the Roman clergy in all ages. Now, as for-
inerly, there are cardinal priests, cardinal deacons, and even cardinal
laymen. They are a superior order of men, the patrons of the arts
and sciences, as well as the ornaments and supports of the church,
and the benefactors of the poor. They liberally entertain and treat our
travelling fellow-citizens with great civility — for instance, Mr. Dewey,
an Unitarian minister, lately in Rome, and cardinal Weld, a dis-
tinguished English nobleman, in whose father's castle, at Lulworth,
if I am not mistaken, our fiist archbishop, the cousin of Charles Car-
roll of CarroUton, was consecrated bishop. — Read Mr. Dewey's ele-
gant and thrilling pages. They will almost make you a Catholic.
Certainly they will liberalize your minds already raised far above vul-
gar prejudices. The c^.rdinals elect the pope — but if the pope creates
the cardinals, surely he does not create his own electors !

Mr. C. — has not told us yet, from what true and holy apostolic,
church, the Roman church apostatized. He has told you of the Albi-
genses, Vaudois, Novatians, Donatists, &c., but they furnish no con-
tinuous church. They are, I say again, ignoble ancestry. My friends,
read history for yourselves if you wish to sec what a miserable set of
wretches these sectarians were.

My friend says, that Peter was married — but I defy him to prove
that he retained his wife after he became a bishop. I will meet Mr.
Campbell on this doctrine of the celibacy of the clergy, and shew
him in the words of St. Paul, 1st Cor. i. 20, and in those of Jesus
Christ, Matthew xix. 1-2, whose expressions, although he was purity
itself, I dare not repcsat in .Mr. C — 'a fastidious cars, " that there are
not many wise uccordinf^ to thejhsh.''^ St. Paul, who was a bachelor,
says, 1st Cor. vii. " I would that all were as myself. I say to the
unmarried and the widows ; it is good for them if they so continue
even as 1. v. 8. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the tilings
that belong to the Lord, how he may please Cod. But he that is with
a wife, is solicitous for the tilings of the v.orld, how lie may please
his wife : and he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the vir-
in thinketh on the tilings of the Lord, that siie may be holy both iti
ody and spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of tlio
world, how she may please her husband." Read the entire clinptpr
Marriage was ordaini-d by Almighty (iod for tlie propagation of the
human race. The (Jathoiic church not only a)>proves the institution, but
teaches that f'hrist hath exalted it to the dignity of a sarraiufiit. St.
Paul, while he wishes all to be like himself, unmarried, still acknow-
ledges that all are not called to that state; and they who cannot prac-
tise continence, l>e wishes to marry; so does the Catholic church. Her
ministers are not allowed to lake a vow of chastity until they have at-
tained an age when they can, aided by divine grace, d(>cide on their
capability for its pure obuervauce. And now, young iadisu and geu-

148 DEBATE ON THE

tlemen, take care you nevpr become wliat Mr. C. would make you,
the successors of Paulicians. They condemned all connubial ties,
eaying that marriage came from the evil principle. But, married or
single, let us not forget that our days in this life are numbered ; the
gayest are frequently death's earliest victims. "For the fashion of this
world, says the apostle, passeth away." Let priests then do good, even
as Catholic religious have done, to the whole human family, renounc-
ing the ties that would bind them to a few only, that ihey may be like
God, the fathers and benefactors of many.

Mr. C. spoke of ministering to the sick. I thank him for the hint.
lu deeds of charity, the Catholic priesthood, the Catholic religious of
all orders, are unsurpassed. Their ' labor of love' is seen in the hospital,
the pest-house, the dungeon, the orphan asylum ; where the cholera
makes its dreadful ravages, where the pestilence stalketh at noonday, or
midnight! Hear Waddington —

" The Ursulines. Of tlxt more inodern orders, there is also oncwhich may seem
to require our notice — tliat of the I'rsuliries. Its origin is ascribed to Angela
di Brescia, about tlie year 1537, tliough the saint from whom it received its
name, Ursula Benincasa, a native of Naples, was born ten years afterwards. Its
character was peculiar, and recalls our attention to the primitive form of ascetic
<leTotion. The duties of those holy sistei-s were the purest within the circle of
human benevolence — to minister to the sick, to reheve the poor, to console the
miserable, to pray with the penitent. These charitable offices they undertook
to execute without the bond o{ any community, witiiout tlie oblig^ation of any
monastic vow, without any separation from society, any renouncement of their
domestic duties and virtues. And so admirably were tliose offices, in millions of
instances, performed, that had all other femnle orders been really as useless ai»d
vicious, as they are sometimes falsely described to be, the virtues of the Ursu-
lines had alone been sufficient to redeem the monastic name.

But it is very far from true, that these other orders were either commonly dis-
solute or (generally useless. Occasional scandals have engendered universal
calumnies." Waddlnoto 's Church Hist. p:ige 325, New York edit. 1885.

Mr. C. spoke of bad popes, Nicholas III. &c. &c. and of monks.— .
Hear again — what this Protestant historian says of them and of this
very Nicholas.

" It is not without reason that Roman Catholic writers vaunt the disinterested
devotion of the early Mendicants — how assiduous they were in supplying (he
spiritual wants of the poor, how frequent in prisons and in hospitals, how forward
to encounter the fire or the pestilence; ho*v instant on all those occasion? where
the peril was imminent and the reward not in this world. They were equally
distinguished in another, and not less righteous, duty, the propagation of Chris-
tianity among remote and savage nations. We have noticed, in a Ibrnier chap-
ter, the method by which the gospel was introduced into the north of Europe
before the middle of the eleventh century, In the twelfth, we observe Boles-
laus, duke of Poland, dpening the path for its reception in Pomerania by the
sword; and in like nlanner, both the Sclavonians and Finlanders, were prepared
for conversion by conquest. Again, Urban VIII. consecrated Mainhard, an un-
successful missionary, b'rshop of tlie Livonians, and proclaimed a holy war against
them; the bishop conquered hVs see, and promulgated at the head of an anny
the tidings of evangelical concord. The same methods were pursued b}- Innocent
III. But from that time forward we find nmch more frequent mention of pious
missionaries, whose labours were directed to accomplish their great work by
legitimate, or, at least, by peaceful means. It may be true, that some of them
were satisfied with mere nominal conversions, and that others had chiefly in view
either their own advancement, or the extension of the papal sovereignty. But
there were likewise many who were ariimated by the most admirable motives,
and whose exertions, if they failed of complete success, failed not through any
want of disinterested devotion. The missiotis of the thirteenth and fourteenth
centuries were principally directed to the north of Asia. In 1245, Innocent IV.
sent an embassy, composed of Dominicans and I'ranciscans, to the Tartars; and
a frlendlv communication was so maintained, that the envoys of Abaca, their

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 149

kin^, were present, in 1271, at the second council of Lyons. Nicholas III. (in
1278) and Nicholas I\'. (in 1289,) renewed those exertions. John of Monte
Corvino, a Franciscan, was distino;aished during; the conclusion of the century
bv the success of his labors; and in 1307, Clement V. erected an archiepiscopal
see at Cambalu, (Pekin,) which he conferred upon that missionary. Seven otner
bishops, also Franciscans, were sent to his support by the same pope; and this
distant branch of the hierarchy was carefully nourished by succeeding pontiffs,
especially John XXII. and Benedict XII. It is certain that the number of Chris-
tians was not ioconsiderable, both among the Chinese and Moguls, as late as the
year 1370, — and they were still increasing, when they were suddenlj' swept
away and almost wholly exterminated by the Mahometan arms. Howbeit, the
disastrous overthrow ot their establishment detracts nothing from the merit of
those who constructed it; and it must not be forgotten, that the instruments in
this work were Mendicants, and, for the most part, Franciscans." lb. p. 547.

The Methodists have done themselves honor by the praises Ihey have
bestowed on Francis Xavier, a Jesuit. They have published his life,
and to day, if I liave time, I will quote from it some beautiful extracts.

They and other Protestants have also published Thomas a Kempis,
or the christian pattern. Where, except in the Gospel, can purer mo-
rality be found ] And Thomas a Kempis was a monk. We are told
that Sacchi said that the Albigcnses and Vaudois made a shoio of piety.
That is a fact, and a pretty show it was. I will not re^d the indicated,
but forbidden page of narrative sincere — better blot it with a tear !

If the pope is charged with severity to kings, it is because kings
were tyrants and the pope was the advocate of the weak, and the
enemy of arbitrary power. The people were crushed, and had no re-
source but in the influence which God gave to the head of the
church.

"With all its errors, (the papacy's,) its coriuptions, and its crimes, it was,
nior^llv and intellectually, the conservative power of christtndom. Politically,
too, it'was the savior of Europe; for, in all human probability, the west, like
the east, must have been overrun by IVIahommedanism, and sunk in irremediable
degradation, through the pernicious institutions which have evtrywhere accom-
panied if; if, in that great crisis of the world, the Roman church had not roused
the nations to an united and prodigious tflbrt commensurate with the danger.

In the frightful stiile df society which prevailed during the dark ages, the
church everywhere exerted a controlling and remedial inllutnce. Fvery place
of worship was an anyluni) which was always respected by liie law, and generally
even by luivless violence. It iu recorded, ai* one of the peculiar miseries of Ste-
phen's miserable reign, that during those long troubles, the soldiers leurmd to
disregard the right of sanctuary. Like many other parts of the Romish system,
thin right had prevailed in the" heathen world, though it was not ascrib^ to
every temple. It led, as it had done under the Romish empire, to abuses which
became intolerable; but it originated in a humane and pious purpose, not only
•creening ollenders from laws, the severity of which ainouiited to injustice, but,
in cases of private wrong, aflording lime for passion to abate, and for the desire
of vengeance to be ap|)eased. The cities of refuge were not more neeiled, under
the Mosaic dispensation, than such asylums in ages when the administration of
luntice was either detestably inhuman, or so lax, thai it alhjwed free scope to
Individual resentment. They have, therefore, generally been found wherever
there are the first rudiments of civil and religious order. The churchyards uhn
were privileged placis, whither the poor people conveyed their goods for secu-
rity. The prolidion v.hicli the eccli-siastiral power exten<led in such cases, k« pt
up" in the people, who so often stood in nfcd of it, a feeling of reverence and at-
tachment to the church. They fill that religion had u power on earth, and that
it was always exercised for their bi-nefit.

'Ihc civil power was in those ages so ineflicient for the prciervation of pnblic
trnn(|uilitv, that when n rouiilry was at pence with all its neighliors, it was linblo
to be disturbed by private wars, indivitfnaU taking upon themselves the right of
deciding their own r|iiarre|ii, and aveneing tin ir own wrong-. Where there
tlistcd no deadly fiud, pretexts were easily made by turbulent and rapaciom mec,
N 2

150 DEBATK 0:f TUE

for engaging in such contests, nnd tlicy were not scrupulouj whom they seized and
imprisoned, lor the purpose of extorting a ransom. No law, therefore, was ever
more thankfully received, than wiien tlie council of Clermot enacted, that, from
sun-set on Wednesday to suu-rise on Monday, in every week, the truce of God
should be observed, on pain of exconmiunication. Well might the inoflensive
end peaceable part of the coninmiiity (always the great, but in evil times the
inert, and therefore the sulVeriiig part,) regard, with grateful devotion, a power,
under whose protection they slept four nights of the week in peace, when other-
wise they would have been in peril every hour. The same power by which in-
dividuals were thus beneliled, was not unfrequently exercised in great national
concerns; if the monarch were endangered or oppressed either by a foreign
enemy, or by a combination of his barons, here was an authorit}- to which he
could resort for an e/lectual interposition in his behalf; and the same shield was
extendetl over the vassals, when they called upon the pope to defend them against
a wrongful exertion of the sovereign power." .Southey's Book of the Clivrch,
pa^s 293. Boston, ^sl. tdit. 1825.

Now I must follow Mr. C. wheeling right ahout from rear to van.
We are told that Peter exercised the grand commission of Apostle —
and that therefore he could not have heen bishop of Rome, and again
that Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. But Peter
was the first apostle sent to the Gentiles — by the angel of Cod. He
received Cornelius the centurion into the church. He founded the
see of Antioch — a Gentile city. If Peter was an apostle of the whole
world, where should he place his head quarters 1 Where, but at Rome,
the mistress of the world, worthy field for a chief apostle's zeal ;
where he could at once be heard by Gentiles and by Jews, by Greeks,
Barbarians and Romans.

We are told there are no vices to be discovered in the Pagan em-
perors more flagrant and gloomy than those of the Roman pontiff's —
that they became proverbial for their iniquity. But I have shown that
these sweeping denunciations are glaringly untrue. There were 39
martyrs out of 2G0 or 270 popes. If there were a few bad men among
them, shall we for that reason fling away our faith ? Does Christ say
so ? Did he not say that it must needs be that scandals come 1 And
were not the vast majority of the popes entitled to veneration'?
Suppose there were about a dozen that were infamous, and that there
were even fifty of various shades of guilt, or imperfection, there were
still upwards of 200 worthy. Christ has said that "many are called,
but few chosen." Show me 200 of the Roman emperors or a liko
proportion of any other rulers, to the popes, who were as good men,
and who have deserved to go to heaven. Shall we point to Nero
holding up the dagger which he had plunged into the breast of his
own mother 1 to Diocletian, the man of sin, — the antichrist of the
apostles, who mowed down hundreds of meek and peaceful disciples
at once 1 — to Caligula, the murderer of the saints ? — to Maxentius ? —
or the monster Maximin ? W^here is there a parallel to their atroci-
ties'? My friend has talked of the inquisition, and on that point also 1
will meet him. The inquisition was the vice of the age and not of the
church. It was unknown for many centuries. In many Catholic
countries it was never received. Other churches and times have,
likewise, their sins of blood to answer for. [Time expired.]

Half-past 1 1 o'clock, A. M.
Mr. Ca.mpbell rises —

My friends if we proceed in this course we never shall dismiss the
propositions we have before us. If we are to sit here and listen to

K03IAK CATHOLIC KELIGION. 151

such a variety of matter wholly irrelevant to the question we shall
never prove any thinor, or know what is proved. Must we have ques-
tions introduced reaching back to the beginning of the discussion and
forward to its close, and touching upon the whole system of theology
in every speech 1 I have said already I will not lose sight of my
duty so as to respond to every thing in one speech.

I almost trembled when my opponent arose with so much pomp
and appearance of having found a triumphant proof of his assertions
in some hidden, and by me, unexplored corner of Irenajus. What!
said I to myself, have I not thoroughly examined this matter T Is it
possible that there yet remains one passage unknown to me against
my assertion, and have I committed myself? But it was even a lit-
tle less alarming than his blustering about the consecration of Phocas.
Judge of my surprise and great relief, when I found he w'as only rea-
ding one of his elegant extracts, which he styles his proof! that in-
deed, it was the same old story new vamped, and varnished without
any reference at all, to the present debate. Irenaeus said, " while Pe-
ter and Paul were founding the congregation at Rome." I would
ask, is there in this audience, any stripling in knowledge, who under-
stands that founding a congregation makes a man bishop of that
church all his life ? Missionaries go abroad, they plant congregations
in particular places ; and they go from country to country, from city
to city, to found other churches. Are they bishops of all the congre-
gations that they esablish ] It is essential to a missionary not to be
stationary. But why expose a matter, already evident to alii It is
the gentleman's last effort. He has explored all antiquity, and all
he can find, after tliree or four days, search, is this single fragment of
a saint, staling on hearsay, that Paul and Vcict planted the church at
Rome ! So ends the controversy on tlial point, the main pillar of the
Roman church. There is another little matter (there are too many
little matters) which I wish to dispose of.

The gentleman affects a great accuracy in liis knowledge, and great
precision on the part of iiis autliorities. He seems to glory in that
sort of reputation, else I would not select tliis trifle. How often has
he asserted that Sylvester summoned the council of Nice, and that
the pone's legates presided over it! And how often lias lie tried to
prove It ! Like soinr? other matters already disposed of, after sleeping
two nights upon the subject, as one that had a pleasant dream, lie
awakens and alfirms again, that Osius, a S])anish bishop, was legate
of Sylvester, and as such presided at Nice. But did he prove it?
I shall read you some testimony on this subject. I do this, not to add
to the weight of my arguments one grain of sand; but to prcjve that
wlien I assert any tiling as a fact, I do it advisiuUy, and will stand to it.
Permit me now to correct a mistakf; into which tiie gcnliennin has
fallen, that I relied ujion the testimony of an ephemeral paper in Ken-
tucky. I did not say, thnt it was upon such authority 1 read any nu-
tlior here. My allusion to tliat pa[)er, was a pure arfrumcniuri) ad ho-
minem ,■ and was made; for bishop Pnrcell and no one else. ['I'lie
bishop of Biirdstown or some of his clergy admitted that Kusebi>is
and I)ii Pin. though not good (Catholics, '• were authentic hisltirians."
But that adinission gives them no new weight, or indeed, no weight at
all with me. I have already given my reasons for the authority of Dn
Pin. I'ut where, may I ask, is bis authority f'>r Sylvester's calling
the council of iNice! The emperor did it at the general suggestion

152 DEBATE ON THE

of iho eastern bishops. And if Osiiis presided, we have no reason
to think that he did it as tlie pope's legate. For this we have an-
cient authority. The gentleman spoke in warm admiration of Osi-
us : but did he not apostatize, or some way lose his orthodoxy ]] He
was, indeed, a learned and talented man — a sort of standing presi-
dent in the early councils ; and in that age of the world as among ec-
clesiastics there were few men of general learning, we therefore find
him conspicuous in all assemblies; and his name stands first in the
subscriptions of the decrees and creeds of the early part of the 4th
century, but that he presided as the pope's legate in any council, espe-
cially that of Nice, is insusceptible of proof.

We shall however hear antiquity on the subject.

"Constantino seeing that he had labored in vain to allay the disputes which
divided the church, thought it would be tlie most ready and ctl'ectual means to
restore peace, to call a numerous synod composed of eastern and western bishops.
This council was called cccuminical, i. e. a council of the whole world, or tne
whole earth, because it was called together from all parts of the Roman empire,
to which the title of the world, or earth, was given, 'and which did almost in-
clude the Catholic church. This council was assembled by order of the em-
peror at Nice, a city of Bithynia, about the month of July, in the year 325, in
the second year of Constantine's reign. St. Sylvester was then bishop of Rome,
who sent thither V'ictor and Vincentius, his legates. It is commonly held that
this council consisted of 318 bishops; but those who were present at it do not
preciselj' determine this number, but say only that there were about 300 bishops.
'Tis not certainly known who presided in this council, but it is very probable
that it was Hosius who held the chief place there in his own name, because he
had already taken cognizance of this affair, and was much esteemed by the em-
peror, who was then present.

Athanasius, in his second apology, calls Hosius the father and president of all
the councils. The name of this bishop is the IJrst in all the subscriptions. Alex-
ander was much esteemed, as appears by the letter of the council. Eustathius,
of Antioch, was called the chief bishop of the council by Proclus and by Facun-
dus; but it is more probable that Hosius presided there in his own name, and not
in the pope's, for he no where assumes the title of legate of the holy see; and
none of the ancients say that he presided in this council in the pope's name.
GelasiusCizicenus, who first affirmed it, says it without any jiroof or authority."

Du Pin, vol. \,]>p. 598, 599.

Now where is the gentleman's authority for the nature of the bish-
op of Rome or his legates, either calling or presiding in this council !
Upon such disregard of ancient history rest many such assertions now
in common circulation and in common belief. But as I said before
on this point, I should not have dwelt a moment upon it, had not my
opponent affected peculiar accuracy in his details.

The bishop admits Barronius to be an authentic historian. Now,
neither Barronius nor Du Pin even admitted so much in reference to
the demerits of the popes, as bishop Purcell has admitted in the pre-
sence of this great congregation : For he says " I have no doubt
but these bad popes are now expiating their crimes in the pen-
al fires of hell." While these words were sounding in my ears,
the question simultaneously arose, with the sensation produced. What !
Has the Lord Jesus his vicars — his representatives on earth, now
roasting in the flames of hell ? I put it to intelligent men, whether
such an idea is not repugnant to every principle of the christian re-
ligion ?

When Simon proposed to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit,
what did Peter say to him ? " Thy money perish with thee !" Does
this look like winking at such enormities? Were not the apostles
all persons of unblemished reputation ] and if such holy men, the

R03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 153

Models of erery virtue, were first appointed by the Lord to conduct
the affairs of his kingdom, how comes it to pass that he has changed
his administration and trusted it to such a succession of pretended
representatives'? Has Christ changed his purpose with respect to
his church, that he will allow its supreme head on earth to act every
species of crime, and yet be his acceptable vicegerents! INlay I not
say, that the darkest hour of midnight is not more opposed to the light
of noon, than is the general character of the popes of Rome to that
of the apostles !

The gentleman exclaims, " How precise these Catholics always
in their dates !" There is however, an over precision, that creates
suspicion. When a man begins to swear very circumstantially before
his word is called in question, I begin to suspect his evidence : and
when I see authors testifying that Peter reigned twenty four years
five months and ten days, bishop of Rome (as I have it on some ta-
bles of the popes ;) I tliink he ought also to come down to hours,
minutes and seconds ! and then we would know how to appreciate him.

This resembles Peter's putting away his wife after he became
bishop of Rome. " What accuracy !" Let the gentleman prove first
that he was bishop of Rome, and then we shall show that he still
retained his wife.

The gentkman'9 compliments to the citizens of Cincinnati, however
well deserved on their part, will not so blind the eyes of this audience
as not to understand the argument ; and the design of their panegyrist.
Nor will his gratuitous denunciation of the Albigenses, Donatists,
Novatians, Paulicians, and others, pass for historic truth. They were
such " vile heretics" in the estimation of *' holy mother," as are we
" schismatical Protestants." Their reputation we have fully sustain-
ed from unexceptionable authority.

The gentleman will have Uu Pin in every speech. Can he prove,
or has lie proved liiiii unfaithful in stating a single historic fact? Not
one. Nor can he disprove those Roman Catholic vouchers for him
on whose testimony I rely.

But as the reiteration of assertion is no proof, and as I am not ob-
liged to repeat arguments as often as he makes assertions, I shall
notice one or two new mailers to which he would give emphasis.

But it ie time to examine the philosophy of the plea for wicked
popes. The Messiah descended through a long line of ancestors, some
of whom were wicked men. That is, the human nature of the Messiah
descended through some wicked progenitors. Indeed ! To the honor
of Jesus f^hrisl, bo it said, he liunililcd himself for our exaltation:
he condescended to be made of a woman, to be descended from Adam,
Noah, and others. In such a long line, he must necessarily, have
had all the varieties of luimaD nature in his ancestors. He chose
to make himself of uo reputation — to he born in a stable, of the hum-
blest and poorcHt |)arcntagi'. Hut who would argiu! from ihcnre, that
because his flesh and blood were so descended ; therefore, the Holy
Spirit muat descend to the church, in all its official gifts of authority
and governmental influ<!nce, through a lineage of persons, whose Itearla
were full of niunier, adultery, and all uneleannesH? and that through
the bands of Hueh jjcrsons all the graces of the ordinances must flow
to all the partakers of the christian institution 1 Does not, let me ask,
the defence make the matter worse? Is there any analogy between the
descent of flesh, and tlie Spirit of God 1 Is the formation of the

154 DKBATK ON TIIR

human body, and the creation of the mystical body of Christ, matters
of equal value and importance ■?

God has generally, employed the best of our race in all the affairs
of our salvation. His agents have often been angels or the best men.
He did not often impart such sacred trusts to men of bad character.
A wicked Balaam or a treacherous Judas may have been amongst
those employed, for special reasons in some great crisis. In the case
of Balaam, he caused even an ass to open its mouth and reprove the
madness of the prophet : but that he ever set such persons over his
church, and gave the affairs of his kingdom into such hands — that
he went so far as to select these wicked popes to speak his word,
is repugnant to all history, and our experience of his dealings with
men.

The gentleman says there were iivo hundred good popes. I do not
admit this : but I am willing to help him so far as to say I can count
forty nine saints out of the first ^/y popes according to my calendar.
But they lived long ago. Not one of the last fifty has been a saint. — •

Bishop Purcell — Yes there is one.

Mr. Campbkll — I beg the gentleman's pardon. There is one saint,
then, out of the last fifty popes ! It is a happy thing for human na-
ture, that the vices and faults of those who have redeeming qualities^
die with them, while their virtues live and magnify, long after their
death. Hence, our remote ancestors and those of ancient times, if at
all distinguished, are canonized in the admiration of the living, and
are supposed greatly to excel our contemporaries.

The bishop says, that if the pope were a poor wanderer in the
mountains of the moon, it would not destroy his authority .-r-Though
the see of St. Peter should be vacant for seventy years ! If so, the
whole argument for Roman episcopacy falls to the ground. If the gen-
tleman admits that the pope has as much authority in the mountains
of the moon as in Rome, why all this controversy about Rome %

The gentleman made himself very merry with the council's depos-
ing three popes and creating a fourth. Bat I repeat, there were in all
four popes created and destroyed at that one time. I feel no mis-
givings of conscience for making this assertion. I ask now, how are we
to decide which of these four had the best title to St. Peter's chair?
Where is the authority for a council's creating one and destroying three
popes 1 No council before ever took so much on them. But if we
say with the bishop, that not one of the three popes was a true pope;
then what a long link is wanting in the succession ; and how could
the council of Constance furnish it 1

My friend the bishop spoke of marriage quite in jocular style — : but
he told one great truth which I hope he will stick to, to the end. It was
this : He said that the church had made marriage one of the seven
sacraments — mark it. The church hzs made it a sacrament ; and she
has made other things sacraments : which the great universal Father
of heaven and earth has not so made and designated.

Peter was sent to convert the Gentiles. — He opened the kingdom
of heaven to Cornelius and his family : but this does not interfere
with his being specially the apostle of the Jews.

There were various vacancies in the Roman see of shorter and
longer duration — several of two or three years, continuance. The
church was often without a head for years at a time.

Was it the intention of the great Author of the christian institution

ROMAN CATHOUC RELIGION. 155

to hazard such a continorency T Would he have set on foot such an ||

order of things ? — The chair often vacant and often filled with wicked "

popes. Now, if the church could get along for years without a pope,
could it not dispense with one altogether 1 F or if faith in the pope
be an essential part of the faith, would Jesus Christ have suffered
the whole administration of the affairs of salvation to be so often and
60 long suspended ? How many persons were born and died during
these vacancies ! How many souls were detained in purgatory ; and
otherwise endangered in their spiritual interests by these unavoidable
interruptions ! — [Time expired.]

Twelve o'clock, M.
Bishop Purcell rises —

The question for to-day is the uniformity of the Catholic faith and
practice ; and we are still upon the subject of apostolicity. Mr. C.
cannot go ahead as fast as he anticipated. He has discovered that
Paulicians, Donatists and Novatians have the bar sinister on their coat
of arms, and he takes up with the Vaudois, for whom Reynier and Wad-
dington have said a good word. Well let us hear the latter, as he is a
Protestant. I may not quote, if I can avoid it. Catholic testimony, p.
290. " At the same time we must admit that the direct historical evi-
dence is not sufficient to prove the apostolical descent of the Vaudois."
There ! the chain of evidence breaks off right short ; and the Novatians,
Donatists and Paulicians cannot weld it. " Besides," says our histo-
rian, " while they (the Vaudois) obliged their clergy to be poor and
industrious, they compelled them to be illiterate also." This, at least,
my friend will condemn.

He says, I have slept and dreamed for two nights on the subject of
my testimony, concerning Osius' presiding, in the name of Sylvester,
at the council of Nice. But have I not already produced Baronius,
and have there not been for the last two days of this debate, other re-
spectable authorities on the table, modestly waiting to he heard ! Ho
said I could not get a single proof earlier than the fifth century, and
then, that the reason why Osius presided in the councils was the want
of learning in that age, in the East. Why, when my friend says this
he admits all, himself, and leaves me nothing to say. But the
fourth century was the golden age of the whole church. There were
many learned men, not only in the West but in the Kast, and if he will
consult Baronius, he will find that there has rarely been presented to
the veneration of the (-'atholic world as bright an array of great and
good men, as that, which in 325, assembled in the council at Nice —
and Du Pin encore. He makes for me. He does say that Victor and
Vincentius, were legates of Sylvester.

To give more solemnity, and if possible, more complete effect to their
decision, the bishops of the Christian world met to banish Ariani m
and CRtahlish the grand cardinal doctrine of the divinity of (,"liiist,
which the Arians impugned. Conslantine was tht-re ; but he acknow-
ledged the disiinrincss of the ecclesiastical authority. We hear of no
collision bflwecn him and Sylvester, or any of the Niceiie bishops.
The church was in no absolute want of his aid, hut as it was freely
given, it was gratefully accepted. There were no canals, rail-roads,
or hotels in those days. In the emperor's munificence, the fathers
of Nice found those resources which their poverty denied them. To

156 DEBATE ON THE

his son Constantiiis, it was, however, that Osius fearlessly said, " Do
not interfere in ecclesiastical matters, for to you God gave the empire ;
but to us ecclesiastical concerns. Now as he who should deprive you
of your kingdom would resist the ordinance of God, so do you beware
lest you fall into sonic grievous sin by taking away the indepen-
dence of the church.

My learned friend says he will not go further on these matters. It
is well — discretion is the better part of valor. The voice of all anti-
quity has spoken — The authority of Rome has ever stood preemi-
nent.

I did not say, I did not doubt these popes were in hell. I beg the
gentleman to quote me correctly. Far be it from me, to arrogate a
right which belongs to God alone, to decide on man's eternal destiny
—but I said, I should not he surprised, at it, when I consider their de-
fects and sins on the one hand, their knowledge, responsibility and
grace, on the other. The more eminent their station, the more con-
spicuous to the whole world, like spots on the sun, were their frail-
ties — the brighter the example of their predecessors, the darker, by
contrast, did they appear. But the circumstances of the times in
which they lived, must be taken into the account to palliate, if truth will
not permit us to excuse, their failings. The lights and shadows are
blended, perhaps necessarily, in the moral as well as in the physical
world ; and as we do not deny the exrsfence of aii infinitely wise and
good God, because we discover apparent imperfectioh in the material
world, the volcano, the poison, the venomous reptile, the whirlwind,
the pestilential malaria, so neither do we conclude that religion, or the
church, is not his work, because we sometimes meet with examples of
moral deformity and disorder which mar the beauty of the heavenly
design. But Mr. C. thinks that God would never allow men whom
he had selected for the high function of Roman Catholic popes, to fall
into sins that would merit for them hell-fire. Does he then forget that
God created Lucifer, as a bright leader of the angelic throng, and yet
Lucifer is now a reprobate spirit in hell! Does he forget that Judas
was selected to share in the infallibility, which he allows was granted
to the twelve 1 Did not Jesus train him up in his own school for three
years'? And did not Judas, after all, betray his God and sell him for
the thirty pieces of silver] Did he not afterwards go and hang him-
self in despair, and his bowels gushed out. Was it not because of the
excess of his own favor to Judas, and the inconceivable ingratitude of
the apostle, that the Son of God had said by the rnouth of his prophet :
Ps. liv. 14. " If my enemy had reviled rhe, I would verily have borne
with it, and if he that hated me, had spoken great things against me,
I would perhaps have hidden myself from him: but thou, a man (f one
mind, my guide and my familiar.'''' This is what makes a priest's,
or a bishop's sin so great. This, awful as it is, is what sustains us
when scandals befall the church, when the lights of the sanctuary are
eclipsed and its pillars broken and scattered on the earth, for we say
to ourselves C^hrist has allowed all this beforehand in that miniature
band, his own apostles — the exemplar of his church : and the number
of bad pcypes has not yet equalled the proportion of one to twelve! God
has allowed all this to teach us, that if men fall away, the faith for
which his holy promises are pledged, is invincible. " The gifts of God
are without repeiitance,'''' Rom. xi.29, in other words, Christ established

EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 157

the primacy of Peter. He wished it to persevere. If any of the suc-
cessors of Peter are bad men; the answer of Paul comes up, "The
gifts of God are without repentance." If man behaves badly, it is for
his own ruin, but his evil conduct shall not change the order and de-
sign of heaven.

It was attempted to show that there was no analogy between the
ancestry of Christ, and the succession of St. Peter. Now I maintain that
if the ancestry of Judah's royal line, magnificent as it was and des-
tined to be the forerunner of Him of, whom Paul had many and great
things and hard to be understood, to declare, could yet include some
of the worst sinners, why might not the apostolical succession, in
which was, individually or collectively, nought so holy as He to whom
all the prophets bore witness, in whom was seen on earth, all the glo-
ry of the Father, full of grace and truth 1

I refer to the first chapter of Matthew where the temporal genera-
tion of the Savior is traced from David, and my argument is this ; that
as it has not impaired the sanctity of Jesus to come according to the
flesh, from him, though he sinned, and from others who sinned as he
had sinned, so neither did it detract from the sanctity of the oflice of
pope, that there were some bad men among the number. The cases
are therefore, so far as that argument is concerned, analogous; and Ave
may exclaim with a holy awe — Oh ! the depth of the riches, and of
the knowledge, of the wisdom of (iod ! How incomprehensible are
his judgments, and how' unsearchal)le his Ways ! Who hath known
the mind of God, or w'ho hath been his counsellor? St. Paul, Rom.
xi. 3.3, 34. My friend says that holy men were alwaj'S selected by the
Holy Ghost for holj- purposes ! and what will he say of Luther, who
proves, as I can show by his own testimony, himself to have been
a bad man ! I have his w-orks here in three vols, folio — a Daniel
come to judgment ! He was "a hard wedge to split knotty blocks !"
&c. Yes, he had a hard mouth, and a hard heart. But I will not
speak of Luther nor of ("alvin, hard, unless couipelk'd.

The gentleman says there were forty-nine saints in the first fifty.
I said there were '.i'J who were sai7its and martyrs. Since that, there
have been many pontiffs, saints. Pius the 7th possessed all the vir-
tues which may eiitith; iiim to be so considered. So did his predeces-
sor Pius VI. .so did i'eiiedict XIV. and Pius VIII. and Leo XII — So
does the present pontiti', a man of the purrst morals, profound humil-
ity, enlightened xeal and eminent h^arning. We have heard many
silly predictions of llie doctrine of his temporal influence in Rome,
but I repeat that he would retain his s])iritual authority, if he were
compelled to have that city, wliicli 1 liopi^ al'tcr iiis predecessors have
stood their ground for fightfcn hundred years lie never will. His au-
thority docs not reside in the stones, and bricks and pave-mcnts of
Rome!

TIk; gentleman speaks of the schism of Avignon, for my friend
thinks liiat if llie pope shouhl leave liome, the (;atiiolic faith would
be annihilated. He docs not know tliat the title of the see would
follow the pope. We never suffer even the name of a sec to perish.
If Christianity forsake a country, where it has, once, been established
the names of the sees would survive. Thus the present, learned and
pious Coadjutor, bishop of Philadelphia, takes his ecclesiastical desig-
nation from Arath in parlUms infulcliuin. The titular bishop of Phil-

158 DEBATE OX THE

adelphia is blind from his great age. The bishop of Bardstown is
also, nominally, bishop of a foreign see.

Now let me, once for all, say that my friend has several times misr
taken my views and words, on tho subject of appointment to office.
I need not repeat what I have said on that subject. We do nothing
without the pope's concurrence and sanction, in spiritual matters.
This communion is a peculiar trait in our church. We exult in it.
It keeps us together as the sheep of one fold. "He who gathereth
not with me scattereth," saith the Lord. By this communion with
the see of Peter, we know that the church is orthodox and sound.
On this account we yield all due deference to the pope. On this ac-
count we ask of him the " canonical investiture," which signifies that a
person is authorized by him to be made bishop, and inducted into the
sacred office by his authority.

We were told that councils met together and elected popes. Therp
is nothing extraordinary in this. Why, my dear friends, common sense
teaches this course. Christ's foreknowledge of all the occurrences
that were to take place in the government of the earth, caused him to
organize society. If not, disorder would ensue. On such a principle
as the gentleman's, there could be no common bond of union. If Christ's
society in the world and men will not consent to be held together by
social rules, his design is baffled. The church is a society. Hence
St. Paul says, "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers, for
they who resist, purchase for themselves damnation." Rom. xiii. 1.
Again, " Remember your prelates who have spoken to you the word
of God ; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."
And again " obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they
watch as being to render an account of your souls, that they may do
this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you."
Heb. xiii. 17. Without subordination there can be no peace, and
consequently no happiness, in any society of men, but particularly in
a religious society. The church is the pillar and the ground of the
truth, 1st Tim. iii. 15. [Time expired.]

Three o'clock, P. M.
Mr. Campbell rises —

Before the third proposition is read, I beg leave to offer both an ex-
planation and an apology.

In reference to the proposition which has just been discussed, I
have lying before me an index of ihe popes from the time of Peter to
Innocent II, A. D. 1()7G. Here are two hundred and forty popes. In
the first fifty, forty-nine were saints. We notice a diminution in sanc-
tity as we descend to our own times ; for in the last ninety popes on
the list, there is only one saint. The church made her own saints.
She ought, therefore, to know the reason why. It rests in her own
judgment: but, in my judgment, she has made in her popes as many
as, in any decency, she possibly could ; and many more in name than
she even had in reality.

The gentleman (and it was one of his most lucky hits) compares the
fact that there was one traitor among twelve apostles, to the fact, that
there were fifty bad popes among two or three hundred popes. This
is a happy salvo. Judas has relieved many a hard case; but the con-
duct of Judas is no apology for the popes. It has another meaning in
scripture, than to justify or excuse such flagitious cases. The Savior

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 159

you will remember, in his prayer (John xvii.), says : " Of all thou hast
given me I have lost only one, the son of perdition ;" because he was
spoken of in the Old Testament, and described as a traitor. The use of
Judas among the twelve, is not always duly appreciated. But for
him, as respects the credibility of the testimony, it might have been
said, that the twelve apostles were all the personal friends of Christ;
and, although persons of fair reputation, yet their testimony was that
of friends. To prevent this reflection, and to make it perfect in every
point of view, one enemy is made the confidant of Jesus, as much as
any one of them. He is admitted to all the secrets of the schemes of
the Messiah, as much as his other companions. He is a covetous
wretch, and sells his master for fifteen dollars. Yet, under the con-
viction of his guilt, after a little reflection, he goes to the high priest,
and makes confession of his sin, saying : " 1 have betrayed innocent
blood." This, at this crisis, in all the circumstances, is the best tes-
timony of the twelve. It was essential to the consummation of the
testimony against the imputation of collusion amongst his friends ; and
Judas is as much a martyr to the truth of Christianity, as any one of
liis companions : a martyr, indeed, not to his own honor, but to the
blameless reputation of the author and founder of the christian faith.
This, then, explains the reason of such a permission in that case. But,
hearken to the sequel. To prevent a bad use of such a permission or
allowance even, the Lord suggested to his disciples to cast lots — to
appeal to heaven in electing a successor to Judas, that they might not
be endangered in the reputation of another apostle, and that he might
be sent from God. To have permitted persons of this character to
stand forward in the front rank of the gospel, would have endangered
the cause. The delinquency of the popes is opposed to the plan and
government of the christian institution ; and had it not been for the
reputation of the Roman clergy, we cannot tell how much more the
cause of Christ would have triumphed ere now. This is the expla-
nation.

Now, for the apology. It is for the difllculties, which our worthy
friend had to encounter in finding a succession in llio bishops of Rome,
that we oflj^r an apology. This apology ought to be a |)art of this book,
for the sake of a particular class, who Kave not leisure to trace the
causes of these things.

The biHlioj) could find no testimony in behalf of Peter's having had
the see of Rome ; bt^causc that was not Ihr. ground on which that see
first claimed the supremacy : if it had, we should have had plenty of
old traditions to sustain it. The ancient and true ground of ascribing
to the bishop of Rome superior importance, and of his arrogating any
sort of superiority over other tjisliops, was, that his see was tiie impe-
rial city : not because Peter or Paul had ever been bisho|) of Rome.
Rome was mistress of the world, the metropolis of the empire, the
great city, the emperor's residence. The bishop of Rome, moreover,
had the richest church in the world, and most honorable diocrse ; and
being neighbor to the ein|)eror, lie bricamo proud : for, said he to him-
8clt", " As the emperor governs the whole world, so oujrht / to govern
the whoh; church." From such seeds sprung the apostolic tree !

Constantine became a ('hrislian : Byzanliuni is changed into Con-
Htantinople : the (Jonstantine family lake up llieir residence there: it
begins to bo called Acw Rome; and with that began the rivalry be-

160 DEBATE ON THE

tween old and new Rome. Soon there are two empires (for the empire
•was divided), one of the east, and one of the west. There must be,
now, two great imperial bishops; and the east and west churches, or,
the Greek and Roman, bepran to feel the spirit of rival agfrrandizement.
The controversy began, and tlie prospects of the new city outrivaled
those of the old city. But, just as tlie sceptre and mitre were about
passing from Rome to Constantinople, some ingenious persoii, lyhose
name no monument records, thought of a happy expedipnt to save the
sinking fortunes of the eternal city. It was, that Peter and Paul had
founded the church of Rome : nay, that Peter and Paul were buried
there !

Constantina, the empress of the east, at the close of the sixth cen-
tury, finding that this discovery was unfortunate to the rising majesty
of the east, sent an express to Rome to obtain the remains of Paul, and
have them conveyed to Constantinople. She was willing that Peter
should remain in the Latoran ; but she wished to possess Paul. Sha
thought this would equalize the pretensions of new Rome and old
Rome, and give her equal claims upon the devotion of the saints and
pilgrims of the church. Had it not been for her failure in this strata-
gem, no one can tell whether Rome had not been, ages since, like
Thebes or Babylon. On this subject, thus speaks the elegant Gibbon :
"Like Thehes, or Babylon, or Carthage, ihe iianie of Rome might have been
erased from the earth, if the city had not been animated by a vital principle,
which again restored her to honor and dominion. A vagne tradition was embraced
that two Jewish teachers, a tent-maker and a fisherman, had formerly been exe-
cuted in the circus of Nero, and at the end of five hundred years their genuine
or fictitious relics were adored as the palladium of christian Konie." Decl. and
Fall Rom. Enip. Vol. viii. p. 161.

"►2 vague tradition.'''' This is happily expressed. But the superior
tact of St. Gregory saved Rome from this misfortune ; and he managed
the petition of Constantina with great address, as we shall presently
show. I beg leave to read from Waddington:

Reverence Jbr Relics. The empress Constantia, who was building a church
at Constantinople to St. Paul, made application to Gregory for the head of that
Apostle,* or at least for some portion of his body. The pope begins his answer
by a very polite expression &f his sorrow ' that he neither could nor dared to
grant that favor; for the bodies of the ho)y apostles, Peter and Paul, are so
resplendent with miracles and terrific prodigies ui their own churches, that no
one can approach them without great awe, even for the purpose of adoring them.
When my predecessor, of happy memory, wished to rliangc some silver arma-
ment which was placed over the most holy body of St. Peter, though at the
distance of almost fifteen feet, a warning of no small terror appeared to him.
Even I myself wished to make some alteration near the most holy body of St.
Paul, and it was necessary to dig rather deeply near his tomb. The superior of
the place found some bones which were not at all connected with that tomb; and,
having presumed to disturb and remove them to some other place, he was visited
by certain fearful apparitions, and died suddenly. My predecessor, of holy
memory, also undertook to make some repairs neur the tomb of St. Laurence:
as they were digging without knowing precisely where the venerable body was
placed, they happened to open his sepulchre. The monks and guardians who
were at the work, only because they had seen the body of that martyr, though
they did not presume so nmch as to touch it, all died within ten days; to the end
that no man might remain in life who had beheld the body of that just man.

* Baroniu!!, who cites the pope's reply with ponsiderable admiration, ottributes the era-
press's exorbitant request to ecclesiastical ambition, — to a desire to exalt the see of Con-
Btantinople to a level with that of Rome, by getting into lier possession so important a por-
tion of so great an apostle. F'leury quotes the letter chiefly in proof that the transfer of
relics was furbiddea in the Roman church, while that abuse was permitted in the cast.

RO)LA.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 161

Be U then known to you, that it is the custom of the Romans, when they give
any relics, not to venture to touch any portion of the body; only they put into
a box a piece of linen (called brandeum,) which is placed near the holy bodies;
then it is withdrawn and shut u^) witli due veneration in the church which is
to be dedicjited, and as many prodigies are then wrought by it as if the bodies
themselves had been carried thither; whence it happened, that in the times of St.
Leo, (as we learn from our ancestors,) when some Greeks doubted the virtue of
such relics, that pope called for a pair of scissors, and cut the linen, and blood
flowed from the incision. And not at Rome only, but through the whole of the
west, it is held sacrilegious to touch the bodies of the saints, nor does such te-
merity ever remain unpunished. For which reason we ate much astonished at
the custom of the Greeks to take away the bones of the saints, and we scarcely
give credit to it. But what shalJ I say respecting the bodies of the holy apostles,
when it is a known fact, that at the time of their martyrdom, a number of the
faithful came from the cast to claim them? But when they had carried themaut
of the citv, to the second milestone, to a place called the catacombs, the whole
multitude' was uriable to move them farther, — such a tempest of thunder and
lightning terrified and dispersed them.

The napkin too, which you wished to be sent at the same time, is with the body
and cannot be touched more than the body can be approached. But that your
religious desire may not be wholly frustrated, I will hasten to send \o you some
part of those chains which St. Paul wore on the neck and hands, if indeed I
shall succeed in getting off any filings from them. For since many continually
solicit as a blessing that they may carry off from those chains some small portion
of their filings, a priest stands by with a file; and sometimes it happens that
some portions fall off from the chains instantly and without delay; while at other
times, the file is long drawn over the chains, and yet nothing is at last scraped
off from them." Wad. Chh. Hist, pages 140, 141.

By this rhetoric, the bodies of Paul and Peter were saved for Rome.
And thus, when she lost the government of the world, and ceased to
te the imperial city, she had a better argument for her supremacy than
before. But, had this been thought of a few centuries sooner, my
opponent would have been able to confound me with a host of tradi-
tionary witnesses, assuring us that Peter was made bishop of Rome
and universal father of the whole church.

[Mr. C. here called for the reading of the third proposition, which
was read by one of the moderators.]

I'aop. I-II. " Shf \r not uniform in her faith, nor uniti^d in her members; but
inulabic and rHlliblf, as any other sect of philosophy or religion — Jewish, Turk-
ish, or Christian— a ("onfi deralion of sects, under a politico-ecclesiastic head."

I will proceed to define some of these terms. It is tnily alleg^ed
that most controversies are mere logomachies ; and that perspicuous
and precise definitions would settle a great number of them can not
be doubted. —

To narrow the debate on this proposition, the Roman church claims
universal homage on the plea of unity and uniformity, as resultinj^
from infallibility. Every other church is mutable and fallible: but
«Ac is immutably the same ! VVhyl Because infallilili'. liifaliii)le in
what respect? Infallible in faith and in morals; l)iit not in discipline.
But where shall this infallibility hv. found"? In any individual per-
son? No; nor in all individual persons taken singly. But she is
infallible in her faith and morals, as written in her creed ! The Pro-
testant rlinrrb is then just as infallible as the Roman church : for her
faith and inoral rode are written in a book which is the fountain of
all moral truth. We must tb<n define faith : and let me ask, wiiat
docs the gentleman mean by faith? persuasif)n of a fact, doctrine, or
opinion? It cannot include everything. If faitli mean with him,
something in the head or heart; then, where is the pre-eminence of the
o2 21

162 DEBATK 0.\ THK

Roman church, whose members individually arc all fallible 1 and if it
be laith as written in the creed : a<Tain, 1 would ask, where is tho
preeminence of tlie Reman cliiirch, over the English church 1 for she
IS as infallible in her creed as the Bible itself.

The gentleman says, ' that the symbol of his faith is the apostles''
creed.'' If hat be the elements of his faith ; all Protestants believe it:
but if he means doctrine, opinion, speculation; then folios would not
contain the differences. What is faith subjectively considered, but a
belief in testimony, divine or human] and what is religious faith o6-
jedivehj, but the Bible? Five words comprehend the order of things
in regard to faith : 1st the fact, or the thing said or done — 2nd the
iesiimony, concerning it — 3rd the belirf of that testimony — 4th the
feeling, consentaneous with that faith — and 5th the action, correspond-
ing with that feeling. — These are the golden links, in that divine chain,
which binds our hearts to God, and explains all the mysteries of the
moral power of the remedial scheme. The gospel facts, as Paul
sums them up, 1 Cor. xv. 1, 2, 3, which engross the whole, are the
death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus, The whole Protestant
world believes these facts. England, Scotland, America — all Christen-
dom believe, or acknowledge these great gospel facts. So far all are
of one faith. The Romanist and Protestant here, are equally infallible
as respects faith ! And do we not all acknowledge the same perfect
moral code T But while there is, indeed, but one faith, there are many
doctrines, opinions, and traditions ; and these are what make the
" Eibh'''' and the " One Faith'" of the Bible of little or no account !
Hence, has not the Roman church, like the Jews, made void the law
of God by her traditions ] It is not because the scriptures do not
contain the right faith: but because men have chosen to add to it
folios of human opinions, that the divine faith has lost its power.

It is a serious question, why is the Roman church infallible in faith
and not in discipline] — in theory, and not in practice] in the head,
and not in the heart] — Is it not of more value and importance, that
she should be perfect in the order and moral discipline of her mem-
bers ; than in the theory or doctrine of religion] She found that she
never could make herself infallible — why then, does she choose to
claim infallibility in the theory, and give it up in practice] Because
her plea of infallibiiity on that ground, she well knew, she could not
at all sustain; and how well she can sustain it on other grounds will
appear in the sequel. She has changed her discipline in every cen-
tury ; and her theories and doctrines of order and government are as
various as the Protestant sects. In the 19th century, she is not the
same as in the 18th ; nor in the 18th as in the 17th, nor in the 17th
as in the 16th, &c.

My friend has made concessions here, which I never expected from
him. He has avowed principles, which, till within a few years, were
unknown in the Roman Catholic church. I look upon this fact as an
evidence, that i)etter days are coming. I could wish that the Roman Ca-
tholic faith, under the mild genius of our institutions, might become so
modified, as to be suited to the character of our republic ; especially
to abandon the absurd pretension of infallibility, which indeed, she
must do, if ever she can become American.

But tlie Roman church is not united, nor uniform in this notion of
infallibility. There are four theories and four parties on the question,
tohcre shall infallibility be found ? The gentleman believes that the

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIO:X. 163

pope is as fallible as himself. This, I conceive, is not the common
belief among Roman Catholics. The Jesuits, if I am rightly inform-
ed, teach that infallibility must, of right, be in the head. Indeed, so
I should reason: for what use would be an infallible body under a
fallible head T and would not that be most unnatural 1 Is not the body
subject to the head, naturally and necessarily ] and ought not every
body political and ecclesiastic, like the natural body, to be governed
by its head ? — [Time expired.]

Half past 3 o'olocA; P. 31.
Bishop Plkcei,!, rises —

I would prefer, for the satisfaction of the audience, and to do the
subject justice, to enter at once on the proposition of the infallibility
of the Church. I should go over the ground, my learned opponent
has traveled, and if permitted, should make a regular argument on
the subjects to which he has alluded. My good friend is dissatisfied
with himself for having made any concessions in favor of the purity
of the popes, and he has re-examined, and Ibund for the last ninety
years but one saint in the calendar. If there was but one can-
onized, does it follow that there was but one worthy? There were
many worthy. There have been many great and good men amono-
the popes who have not been canonized. Rome is ver}' particular
whom she proposes as models for her children's imitation. She is
anxious that there should be no blemish in the splendor of holiness,
no faded flower in her coronal. She must be so well assured by the
evidence of facts and miracles of the eminent virtue with which it
has pleased God to endow the subject whose life is examined v.-ilh
reference to this holy distinction, that she has appointed a personao-e in
Rome, called the Devil's Advocate, whose duty it is when a candi-
date is proposed for beatification, to rake up all he can against him,
and thus prevent, not his entrance into heaven exactly, but the admis-
sion of his name into the calendar of saints. So that, what an illustrious
Protestant has said, " it is a miracle to prove a miracle at Rome," is
in fact, a proverb in the Ancient City.

Well, now, my friend says that it was necessary that there should
be a Judas, — tliat Ik; was mentioned in the Old 'iVstament — iiis is a
special case — unicine. Ihil my argument is so strong on this point,
that I will give up even the strong case of Judas, and j-et prevail.
Even Peter, with oaths, denied the knowle<lge of his God and Savior
Jesus Christ. The other apostles also abandoned him — a crime, bo
it noted, which the Novalians would have never pardoned. .'JU ihi'i
was foretold as well as the particular instance of Judas. So llr.it, if
he please, I will abandon this particular case, and argue as follows ;

Peter fell and was resuscitated ; the rest of the apostles fled; they
were ashamed, or afraid, of being thought the disciples of Christ.
They were not, however, rijerted. The gifts of (Jod were witli-nl re-
pentance in their regard, who having seen ami conversed with the
Word made Flesh, witnessed his miracles, and beheld the example
of his virtues, were, therefore, to human judgment, less excusable
for their desertion of the stricken Sheplierd. Why niay uni, at least,
equal mercy be extended, if not to llie popes, who were in this re-
spect less highly favored, at least, to the dtictrivr. of trutli which tho
apostles, and the popes were appointed to announce and to preservo
among men T Must God's holy law be broken to pieccu, and truth

164 DEBATE ON TUE

perish from the earth, because there have been bad men, like Aaron,
■who bow to the gohleii call" — to their passions 1 It is believed by
some to have been specially ordained by the good providence of God,
that Rome, once the mistress of the entire Pa^an world, should be
forever the chief see of the (Christian world ; thus verifying' the almost
prophetic words of one of her most gii'ted minds, " that the sun in
his course cannot behold any thing greater," We are told a fine sto-
ry about Constantia — like some less ancient rivals of the see of Pe-
ter, she was three hundred years too late to establish any claim to
the headship of the church, and especially by such means, in favor
of Constantinople. Now, my friends, why did Constantia want to
have the head of Paul at Constantinople ? It v^'as because it was
known that from the beginning Rome had possessed the prescriptive
right to the chief honor and authority, not only in the temporal, but
likewise in the spiritual kingdom. The seat of temporal power had
been transferred to Constantinople ; but the see of ecclesiastical su-
premacy was still at Rome, and like another Queen of lofty and arro-
gant pretensions, Constantia aspired to reign supreme, in Religion as
well as in Politics. According to the ideas of that time which show in
what veneration relics were b^'f^? she could set up no good claim for
the spiritual independence of Constantinoi)le, unless she had the head
of St. Paul brought from Rome, and in this she failed.

Gibbon says, and it is one of the few sterling truths he ever said,
(though it is a bull) that Rome would have perished amidst so many
revolutions, if she had not had within her a vital principle. This
reminds me of what my worthy antagonist said in the Presbyterian
church, quoting a French physician, during the session of the College
of Teachers, " that we might live forever if we could live without
eating." Rome lives, and is likely to live forever, whether by po-
rous absorption of vital aliment, or oy the " vts meiUcatrix Natuxx"^^
which expels ^W peccant /lumors, it is unimportant to enquire.

Now I cannot see the applicability of the long passage from Gib-
bon, containing the answer of the Pope to Constantia. They tell a
similar story, and I believe Protestants credit it, about Julian's un-
dertaking to give the lie to the predictions of the prophets and of
Christ, regarding the temple of .lerusalem, by rebuilding that struc-
ture consigned by God to endh^ss destruction. Globes of fire, as his-
torians say, issued from the foundations, und so terrified the work-
men as to compel them to desist. I think it likely that this may have
happened, but, like the story of Constantia, it is no article of faith.

Now we come to the important doctrine of infallibility. It is a
doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that, when the whole world
was in error, when every thing was adored as God, save God himself,
and vice kept pace with error, the Almighty, pitying this darkness,
sent his Son, Christ Jesus, the Word made flesh, into this world to
teach and to redeem mankind. Jes\is Christ was God, equal to the
Father in every divine perfection. He possessed infinite wisdom to
choose, and infinite power to use the means necessary to the accom-

tlishment of the great Task imposed on him by his lleavenly Father,
[e performed miracles. He stood over the grave of a putrified corse,
and cried, " Lazarus come forth," and the dead man arose and went
home with his extacied sisters. He placed his hand on the bier in
which was borne the only son of the widow of Naim, and the mourn-
er's tears were dried in that son's living embrace. He gave hearing

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 165

to the deaf, he opened the eyes of the blind, he healed the paralytic.
The evidence of these wonders was such that even the skeptical Jew
was convinced, and all the people exclaimed that man had never
done the like.

When he had thus, by miracles, proved himself to be God, as it was
no part of his divine plan to remain always in a human form, nor to
visit any other nation, than Judea, although all the nations of the earth
throughout all ages were to have the gospel preached unto them, he
chose twelve men, whom he diligently instructed, as friends, and not
as servants, in all the mysteries of the kingdom. These he sent, as his
apostles, to preach the gospel to every creature. But before he sent
them, he assured them that he would abide with them forever. His
words were these: "All power is given me in heaven and in earth.
Going therefore teach ye all nations ; baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to
observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ; and behold I
am with you all days even to the consummation of the world." Matt,
xxviii. 9, 20. And that they might be infallible, he breathed on
them, saying, " Receive ye the Holy Ghost, who will teach you
ALL TRUTH, and bring all things to your mind whatsoever I have said
to you." John xiv. 26. "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot
receive because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him; but you shall
know him, because he shall abide with you and be in you." St. John
xiv. 17. This is the reason why the Catholic church believes in infalli-
bility : If every man enjoys the privilege of taking the bible according
to his own understaiuling thereof, the C'atiiolic should not be molested
in the exercise of a common right. He does take the bible for his
guide, and strong as any in Holy Writ is the proof he finds therein,
for the doctrine of an infallible authority established by Christ in his
church. The Savior tells the apostles, that he will be with them all
days — and says, " he that iikaueth vou hkareth me : and he that
despiseth you, despiseth me : and he that dcspiseth me, despiseth him
that sent me," &c. In the name of God, why did Jesus Christ say
these words, and inspire his disciples to record them, if we were
not to believe them 1 I cannot conceive how it is possible that we
should takf! these, bis most eni|)halic declarations, to mean any thing,
but what they obviously signify. Why did St. Paul say that the
church was the " pillar and ground of truth," if this pillar and that
foundation were to give way as soon as the apostles died, tliat is to say
in a few short years? Why did the ajxjslle coniinand all tu obey their

f)relates, if the whole edifice of truth would give way as soon as ho
lad disappeared from the earth 1 No, my friends, of the kingdom of
Jesus ('lirist there shall be no end, until ail nations shall be gathered
into the one fold under one shepherd : until we all meet in the i'nitv
OF faith: and not as bishop Home says, jumbling together an undi-
gested heap of contrarieties and jarring sects into tin; samcj mass, and
making the old chaos the plan of the new reformation.

I might dissert for hours on this subject, but I am compelled to
leave off here ; yet F beg my Protestant, I sincerely and from my
heart say, most ji'h\)ccU-(\ felbnv-eiii/,eriH to relhrt on these malters,
that they may not believe the misrepresentations of our doctrines, wliicb
they have loo often lie^ird, as 'f we had no good, scriptural grounds for
our faith. Such misrepresentation has done us mucli injury. It has

166 DEBATE ON THE

been indulged in so long that I do not wonder at the horror of Catho-
lics, it has, in many instances, inspired. To this illiberal feeling mul-
titudes of Protestants are superior, I could almost say they are utterly
incapable of it- — they abhor it. Some of them are among the best
friends I have in this city. And it is not the only one where I am
proud to recognize them, and send them this humble tribute of my es-
teem and grateful reminiscence.

My friend said I had made concessions ; he too has been misinform-
ed, and knows more of our doctrine since the commencement of this
discussion, than he ever knew before. He will allow me to say that
I understand something of my own religion, and that as I can neither
add to nor detract from it, I exhibit its own portrait, and not a carica-
ture, and still less a flattering likeness. He says, the Protestants be-
lieve in the apostlefe' creed. Would to God they would even believe
in one single article of that creed ! " I believe in the Holy Catholic
church." But they do not : or one other article, in the same creed, in
the true sense of the words; " I believe in Jesus Christ."

Suppose I tell a man that I believe him; but persuade him to his
face, in spite of his repeated asseverations, that he did not say what he
says he did. Do I believe him ] Suppose 1 say I love him, and yet
do all I can to his injury, are my protestations what they ought to be 1
So it is with Jesus Christ. If you believe in him, you obey his words
and hear his church which he commands you to hear. It is vain to
say, I believe in Jesus Christ, unless we follow him also, and keep his
commandments. If we do not so, we are hypocrites, or, at least, we
deceive ourselves; and if we despise his church, he assures us most
positively, that we despise himself. "If any man," says he, " will
not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publi-
can." Matt, xviii. 17.

But we are told that the meaning of " the church" is the whole con-
gregation of the faithful scattered through the earth. If so, must I
traverse the whole earth and appeal to every individual believer for an
explanation of the law, or a defence of my innocence ? This is
clearly impossible. Whereas Christ's injunction supposes the exist-
ence of a tribunal, which he commands me to hear, as I would hear
him; which he commands me to hear, under the penalty of being
reputed a heathen and a publican. If this tribunal could pronounce
falsely, would Christ have commanded me thus to hear and obey it,
as I should hear and obey himself? I hope the desired answer will
be given to this question.

Again, my friend says all Protestants believe the apostles' creed.
But suppose a gentleman of the Unitarian denomination should say,
I believe in the apostles' creed — would a Protestant of another denom-
ination credit it 1 A Unitarian believes in Jesus Christ, but how does
he believe in him, when he denies his divinity 1 Here is the vice and
error of the Protestant system. They all say, I believe Christ, I be-
lieve the bible ; when they make (Christ and the bible teach the most
contrary doctrines; and all think they are going to heaven — all think
they believe the same Savior. Alas ! how many souls has not this
error lured from the only path that conducts to eternal life ! " There
is a way which seemtth to a man to be right," says the holy scripture,
"but the end thereof leads down to hell." The sects of Protestants
are diametrically opposed \.<3 each other. They are at greater anti-

E03tA>' CATICOLIC RELIGIOX. 167

podes than the two Indies. Two men of different sects will meet :
says one, "Do 5-ou believe in Christ V " Yes." " But you do not be-
lieve in him as God ?" '-No." "No matter, v>e are both good believers."
A^ain, two others — " Do you believe in Christ?" " Yes V " But you
not believe in a hell V " No." " No matter, we are both sound ortho-
dox christians." Or again," Do you believe in Christ]" "Yes." "But
you don't believe in baptism" — and so if goes.

Now Jesus Christ cannot contradict himself: he cannot say things
incompatible with eacli other, as that two and two make four ; and
two and two make five. My friends, I come here not to attack other
sects. I come onl)- to defend the truth. Of all religions, all teach-
ing, as they do, contrary doctrines, one only can be right. If one
only can be true, all others must be untrue. Have you ascertained
which is that true one 1 And if so, how have you ascertained it? To
whatever denomination you may belong, your Protestant neighbor, as
enlightened, as conscientious and as pious in his own opinion as you
are, thinks you have embraced dangerous error, and Jesus Christ
sounds in your ears the dreadful words, *' He that believeth not" —
not what he thinks is right, but what is right — " shall be damned.''^
Mark xvi. 16. — [Time expired.]

Pour o'clock, P, M.
Mr. Campbell risei —

\ hope we shall better understand e^ch other. The question be-
tween Protestants and Roman Catholics, on the subject of infallibility
as respects the faith, is usually propounded in the following form:
* li there an infallible rule <if faith .'' Both parlies, answer in the; af-
firmative. Then, ' IVhere shall it he found?'' Each party then sets about
defining and wrestling about this said infallible rule. The Protestant
says, the bible alone is his infallible rule; and the Romanist says the
church, or the bible explained by the church, is his infallible rule !
Thus the Protestant rests upon the bible and the Romanist upon the
church — neither of which make men infallible. We apprehend there
is a sophism some where in the phraseology : for both parlies have
exhausted folios on tliis subject and seem often to iiave retired from
the arena e(|ually perplexed. My antagonist seems to be much in
advance of me, and sometimes so far in my rear as to he out of sight.
Meanwhile, he will please not to forget that it is my province, at least,
to sketch out my own method of discussion, and lead the way. My
last spcccli is certainly y<t unanswcrinl.

I do not choose the phraseology wliicii has been jinpular in some
diseussions, on tho subject of the rub' of faith. There is too much
ambiguity, too much room for logomachy in some of these definitions.
There is, in strict propriety, no infallii)le rule of faith. Nor is it pos-
sible there can be: for men and angels have erred under all rules. I
wish to be iindc^rHtood. Tiic torms fallible and iifalHlile do not at all
apply to Ihini^x : they only a|)p!y to persons. We may have a per-
fect and complete — or a sufficient nilr : but we cannot hav(> an infal-
lible one. 'I he fallibility, or the infallibility is in the ajiplication of
the rule — not in the ruir itself. The merhanirian may have a perfect
rule; anri yet err in measuring any superficies. Ft is not possible in
mechanics, nor in morals, nor in religion, to have a rule which will
prevent error : so long as those who use it are free and fallible agents.
As Paul said on an occasion, not cxnctly similar, we may here say :

168 DEBATE ON THE

' If there could have been a law given to free agents, which would
havo*precUuled error, verily God would have given it. But as he
has not given any such law, therefore, there has been error in heaven
as on earth. Angels fell and Adam apostatized. I own, it may be
said, that in common parlance, we figuratively talk of an infallible
rule. I admit that we do, and that is the reason, when we come to
debate the mattc^r, the parties are confounded : for the bible alone, or
the bible on the table ; and the church alone, or the church and the
bible together, have made no one free from error. Therefore, there
is no infallible rule in truth : but we have a perfect rule, and if we
apply it perfectly, it will make us perfect. So far, then, as infallibi-
lity is concerned, if there be truth in these remarks, both parties are
again equal. Our rule is the bible alone. The Roman Catholic
rule contains one hundred and thirty five large folio volumes
superadded To the bible, and the apocrypha ! These are composed
of the following parts and parcels: 1st Apostolical Fathers 35 folios,
2nd Eight volumes of Decretals, 3rd Ten volumes of Bulls of the
Popes; 4th Thirty one volumes of Canons and Decrees of Councils;
6th Fifty one folios of the Acta Sanctorum — Acts of the Saints, amount-
ing in ail to, — one hundred and thirty five volumes folio. Our rules,
then, differ exceedingly in point of length, breadth and thickness. The
Roman Catholic rule is exceedingly unwieldy. It requires a whole
council to move it, and apply it to a single opinion. Ours is, at least,
portable. — But still the phrase rule of faith is not Protestant. The
bible is the faith ; and that testimony is the rule and measure of our
belief: for in logical truth testimony is the only proper rule of faith.
However, the question is not strictly, what is the rule of faith ?

We both agree that the true reason of infallibility is inspiration. I
was glad to hear this noble concession from my learned opponent.
Jesus Christ was able to give a perfect rule. He therefore inspired
twelve apostles to form that rule, and enjoined us to hear them. So
far, there is no difference between ils. We both have a perfect rule,
and that perfect rule is the bible ; and the reason of its perfection is
its inspiration. But where is the inspiration of the one hundred and
thirty five folios ? Does it require this immense library to make us
understand the bible ? However, if my friend can establish their in-
spiration, and show that .Tcsus Christ has spoken in these volumes;
we will adopt them without controversy. But there is a want of uni-
formity in the Catholic faith (even with the help of these volumes :)
and-hence the four sects mentioned just before I sat down, on the
question, where shall this infallibility be found : for after all the one
hundred and thirty five volumes lying on the table, are no better than
the bible lying on the table, the Roman Catholics being judges. — They
must have an infallible interpreter of these volumes. Where shall he be
found 1 " Some say that infallibility resides in the head of the church :
2nd, Others, that it resides in a general council, in which the church
is represented : although such a general council never sat. 3rd, Others
argue, that it lies neither in the pope, nor in the council separately :
but in the two combined — a 4th party says that it lies neither in the
pope, nor in the council, nor in both : but in the whole church, re-
sponding to any question. Now might we not call these font parties ?
Do our controversies about atonement, or election &c. make us more
truly sects, than do these different interpretations make parties in the
Roman church ] But where shall infallibility be found 1 If this can-

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 169

not be shown, it is of no more use to us in time of need, than a
mountain of gold in the bottom of the ocean ; or a field of diamonds in
the moon. I hope the gentleman will clearly ascertain this point, and
make us all understand where we shall find this infallibility. We
would like to know, how the combination of a given number of falli-
bles will make one infallible being; or, by what laws of neutraliza-
tion the fallibility of every member of the church is destroyed, and
the whole mass becomes infallible. But if the infallibility of a dogma
depends on inspiration, what is the use of councils, unless the pro-
mise of infallibility be made exclusively to councils'?

But I have no necessity for the argument which I had framed on
this point. The bishop attributes infallibility to iuspiration — not to
combination : So do Protestants. Therefore on this cardinal point we
seem more likely to agree, than I expected. Protestants have then
an inspired creed, and this gives to them all the infallibility, which
Roman Catholics claim to themselves: but should any one say that
the majority of a council constitutes infallibility, then we should have
to enquire into the reasons of the infallibility of said majority; and
for the sake of some of that class, I would here state that these ma-
jorities often are very lean minorities of the church. The council of
Trent debated eighteen years, during which time she held twenty five
sessions. In one session th-cre were but forty eight bishops, and they
not the most learned. A majority of these determined that the apo-
crypha was inspired, and that it with the Vulgate Old and New Tes-
tament; was of paramount authority in the church. Twenty five
bishops, a majority of forty eight, represent the whole christian com-
munity ! The question now is, were these men inspired while they
were voting this dogma? I wish the bishop to state his views on this
point clearly, if indeed he thinks that inspiration is at all an attribute
or a gift promised to majorities however loan.

But, my friends, when you have got this ponderous creed from the
decisions of general councils, must it not be interpreted ? Must not
the dogma of a majority be also interpreted? And who is to interpret
them? Every man for himself] Then are you Protestants; or, Ro-
manists working by the Protestant rules. After all, I see nothing
gained by all this expensive and ponderous machinery. Is not every
Roman Catholic obliged to judge for himself on the meaning of every
dogma, and whether he oiught to receive or reject it? Then, I ask,
are not the inspired verses of the Old and New Testament as easily
interpreted,as the inspired decrees of thes(> councils ? Did not the Spirit
that inspired the aposlbs, teach as clearly, as the falhrrs in their coun-
cils? I wish to understand the bishop more accurately on these points.

The gentleman (I regret to state it) spoke of Protestants as hating
the Roman ('atholics, from a supposed ignorance of their creed. For
myself, and for Protestants generally, I disavow the idea, and the
Idnguagt; of hatred towards Romanists, as such. We feci the same
humanity and benevolence towards Roman Catholics, as men, as to
Protestants. We always discriminate between tenets and men, a
system or theory, and those who hold it. With open arms, I would
welcome to our shores the oppressed of all nations, Romanists and
Protestants. I would extend to the Roman ('atholic every facility to
improve his condition by immigration into this favored land, provided
only I were free from all suspicion, that his faith in the pope and
P 33

170 DKBATK OS THIS

molher-cliurch, would not induce him or Ills children to wrest from me
or mine, that freedom and liherty which I would pladly participate
with him. I oppose his religion ; hecause, 1 sincerely tliink it enslaves
him, and would enslave me, if it had the power. But, in all this there
is no hatred to Roman Catholics as men. We are devoted to American
institutions, because they are humane. For the sake of Romanists, as
well as Protestants, we desire to see them permanent. We fear the
exclusive, proscriptive, and despotic system of Romanism; but we
feel nothing but benevolence to Roman Catholics.

My worthy opponent has done us great honor in saying, that he
knows many excellent Protestants, whom he esteems highly as good
men. Of course, then, they may be saved out of the Roman Catholic
church. If so, what is the difference between his infallible and our
fallible faith ? I cannot find time to reply to any remarks of my oppo*
nent, not made in reference to my arguments. — [Minus 5 minute-s.]

Half-past 4 o'clock, P. M.
Bishop Purcem. rists —

I shall reply to what has been said, and then pursue my own line
of argument. The Catholic church claims to have an infallible rule
of faith and an infallible code of morals. The former would be of
little use without the latter. So intimate is the connection between
sound faith and sound morals, that we hold that if the Catholic code
of morals is vicious, she is not infallible in doctrine. If the working
of her code of morals is proved to lead, or to have led, into vice, she
is not infallible. This never has been proved, nor ever can it be.
But the contrary to this has been proved, and its proof is cumulative.
The darkest ages furnish some of its brightest illustrations. She
does not pretend to be infallible in discipline, in the sense of its im-
mutability. The gentleman confounds discipline with morals, and
this want of clearness of ideas is the source of the entire difficulty.
Discipline, I think, I have explained. It regulates the dress of the
clergy, the liturg'ical language, the time of singing hallelujah, the
mode of shaving the head, or making the tonsure, the giving of the
cup to the laity, the use of leavened, or unleavened bread for the sa-
crament, selection of days for feasts and fasts, &C. &c. The church
must have the power of changing in these respects-^in other words
of adapting her discipline to times, and countries. And all this, so
far from being an imperfection is a proof of her perfection, of her
having been established by Jesus Christ to teach, and guide, and sanc-
tify all nations for ever. I did not state the crude proposition, which
the gentleman has attributed to me, viz. that the pope is as fallible as
I am. I would not compare myself thus to him. I occupy an humble
station compared to his, and I am conscious of the want of those em-
inently distinguished qualities of head and heart which compose his
character. He has grace and lights which I have not. The gentle-
man tells Protestants a flattering tale, that they have as infallible a
rule, as Cathojics. This is keeping the word of promise to the ear
and breaking it to the heart. Does he not in the same speech, ac-
knowledge that their fallible opinions, doctrines, traditions make their
own rule, the bible, vain and nothing worth ? The bible is a dead let-
ter — all pretend to find their conflicting tenets in it. Where is then,
the infallible rulel Does he not charge Protestants as well as Cath-

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 171

olics with error. And why T The gentleman said, where is the use
of the head, without the body ! I ask where is the use of a body
without a head ] And he said, if the body regulates the head it is
anomalous. But what is it that sends vitality to the head ? Is it not
the heart with its healthful pulses and its quickening current 1 The
pope is the head — the council is the heart — and I have no objection
to his calling the laity the members, to continue the figure. While
there is no schism in the members, no separation of the head or of the
heart, all is soundness and life — so in the church — pope, pastors, and
laity. United we stand, divided you fall. The true theory of the
church, like that of the human body, is union. Ask not, does the
heart, alone, or the head alone, or the members alone contain the vital
principle — they sympathize ; they live and move and have their being
together. God seems to address himself to the head and to the heart
in the revealed definitions of his essence. " I am who am," and " God
IS LOVE," one of these definitions is for the reason, the other for the
affections; one for the Old Testament, the other for the New. Both,
however, come from the same source and tend to define Him — liiFE,
Wisdom and Love.

The division of truth into objective and subjective is correct — but
objective revealed truth is the tchole truth revealed by God, wherever
found and in whatever manner conveyed. What is the use of this,
without subjective truth, or our own knowledge and conviction that
we possess objective truth, and that we are si/re of possessing iti Of
this, the Protestant, who rejects authority in religion, and pretends to
find out religion for himself, from a book, which he acknowledges, fal-
lible men handed to him, can never be euro. The fact, the testimony,
the belief of the testijuony, the feeling consentaneous with the belief,
and the correspondent action, are all human faith and natural feeling,
struggling, and striving for some higher and bitter gifts, which it can-
not attain without infallible assurance, without the Catholic rule. What
is the testimony that might be deceived itself and niight deceive me 1

He says we (Jatiioiics have a very broad rulc-^i;35 folios. No such
thing. We have a (juitf couvciiiirit pocket-rule. It is the pearl of

freat value — a diamond, with w hich we cut the brittle glass of mere
uman creeds in pieces, and wjllj which we solve every difficulty.
It is this : " I believe in the Holy Catholic church." They were tho
apostles — he was Christ wlio gave it to us. It does not supj)ose ig-
norance, or servile actjuieBcence. It lifts us above error, giving us a
divine warrant for every tenet of our faith, and directing our under-
standings and hearts to God, who speaks to us by his church. I
hope I did not understand my friend correctly this morning, but if I
have he has uttered horrid blasjjhemy. I understood him lo say that
God could not have given a perfect rule (to make man infallible, and
prevent him from error.)

Mr. ("amphell explained. He had said that God could not create
a hill without a valley — could not make man a free agent and bind him.

Bishop PurirEM,. (/'ould not (iod have created tlie angels so that
they could not fall into sin?

Mr. Campiiell. 'I'here can be no virtue nor vice, without liberty
of choice : neither in man nor in angel.

Bishop PuRfCLi,. My friend lias said that Ciod could not have cre-
ated angels or men virtuous without making them free to sin. The
angels of heaven are not free to do wrong, ar« they not virtuoa« ?

172 DEBATE ON THE

Mr. Campbell. If such is the nature of angels, they are virtuous
by nature. Perfect liberty consists in acting in unison with our na-
ture.

Bishop Purcell. Then the angels arc virtuous without being free.
If the rebel angels were virtuous by nature, how did they happen to
fain And could not Cod have made the angels who are now good,
by nature, or by grace, such from creation ■? I will now continue my
argument. It does not exceed the power of God to make man infal-
lible. Christ was infallible; for he was God. Now if he could
make twelve men infallible, as Mr. C. admits the apostles were, why
could he not perpetuate the same power in favor of his entire church,
since such infallible authority to teach his true doctrine is as necessa-
ry now, as it was at any former time %

Now I have another strong argument here — it is old with us, but
suggested anew by readifig one of the Protestant papers, from New
York. It is the Palladium, and my friend seems to know the editor,
for he himself has given occasion for the very article in question. The
argument is this : If tradition be fallible, and it was not known for
300 years, what books of the bible were genuine, and what spu-
rious, how shall we ascertain that we have the bible 1 How shall we
ever know that the book is the book of God 1 The making of the ca-
non or list of books composing the inspired volume, was a difficulty
yielding to but few others in magnitude, during the first four hundred
years of Christianity, when, if we must believe my friend, infallibility
had departed, with the last of the apostles, to heaven. How then can
we be sure that our present canon is correct? Catholics can be sure
on this vital point, for they have the voucher of ^n infallible guardian
of the holy deposit, for its correctness; but Protestants, who have no
such tribunal to enlighten them, how can they be sure? Catholics
hold that infallibility was promised to the church by Jesus Christ. Its
testimony is heard in a general council, or in the pope's decision in
which all assent. The church can subsist without a general council,
General councils are not essential — though frequently of use, because,
though we all believe without cxcepUnn, that the pope's decision, in
which, after it has been duly made known, all the bishops of the Ca-
tholic world acquiesce, is infallible, still the decision of a general
council declares in a more impressive and solemn, though not more aur
thentic, manner, the belief of tire Catholic world on the contested doc-
trine, and thus more effectually proscribe the contrary error. The
celebrated Protestant, Leibnitz, remarked that there could be no cer-
tainty of a correct decision on religious matters, equal to that afforded
by the decision of a general council. The four sects Mr. C. speaks
of all agree in the belief of the infallibility of the church representa-
tive and of the church responsive; if I must employ these technical
terms — and as he asks " could not the Holy Ghost, who inspired the
apostles, teach as clearly as the Fathers in their councils ?" I answer,
' Yes,' and he has so taught us to "heau the church," for, tio prophe-
cy nf scripture is of any private interpretation.

Let me now vindicate the humblest Roman Catholic of my flock, or
of the world, from the charge of pinning his faith to the sleeve of any
man, or of surrendering his conscience to the keeping of his priest.
Catholics do not believe because the priest tells them to believe, butbe-
cause they consider him to be the faithful interpreter of Christ and the

BOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 173

organ of the church, but should he dissent from the oracles of God and
his ecclesiastical superiors, that moment they Avould quit him. They
see his teaching- accords with that which they have heard from others,
which they have read, as the Catholic doctrine. If they doubt, they
ask other priests, or the bishop. Thus while they know the priest to
be orthodox, they hear him, or rather the church, they hear God and
they believe God. And in this there is no servility. The faith he
teaches and the moral law he expounds, have both come from God, and
to God they owe and pay their vows. My friend misapprehends me.
I did not say that Protestants haled Catholics. I say that some Pro-
testants are often prejudiced against them, and I wondered they are not
more so. If he could prove the odious proposition so long before you,
the Catholic church would be a monster. I am sorry my friend has
misunderstood the doctrines of the Catholics, and I am glad of the op-
portunity which is thus afforded me, of coming before the public and
showing what are our real sentiments.

I come to the doctrine of infallibility again. I will begin my argu-
ment this evening, and conclude perhaps to-morrow morning. I beg
leave to read what I have myself written on this subject :

Whoever reflects upon the countless varieties of human character,
the ignorance of some men, the prejudices of others, the passions of
all, will scarcely require that we should expend much time or labor to
prove, that as long as men are commanded to form their religion
for themselves, even though the book ihey receive for their guide
should be the plainest in its language that divine wisdom could bestow,
the sources of error will be never drained. No matter how pure the
doctrine of that book, how holy its precepts, how luminous its evi-
dences, occasions will occur, when these doctrines will be contested,
these precepts denied, tiiese beaming evidences obscure to the pride,
the voluptuousness, and the love of independence, inherent in a per-
verted nature. Man, under the influence of such feelings, will read,
will write ; he will communicate his doubts and impart his prejudices
to others; he will originate new creeds, and form new sects ; he will
raise altar against altar, and desk against desk ; nor will any one,
consistently with Protestant principles, have a right to ask him why
he does so. At the beginning of the sixteenth century, when the right
of forming r<;iigion, every man for himself, and tiie bible for \is all,
was first jjromulgated, the fierco self-coristitiitrd apostle sounded a
deafening peal of defiance, and dcnounctul ail authority in religious
concerns as spiritual tyranny. " Read the scriptures !" he vociferated
to the astonished crowd of wise or foolish, learned or unlearned, that
thronged to hear him. " Road the scriptures, and judge for yourselves :
your reason and tin; sj)irit will enable you to understand them, as eas-
ily as you can discern hot from cold, or sweet from bitter. Read tho
scriptures : they that run may read. Judge for yourselves !" They
did read, they did judge for themselves; aiul they decided against
their aposth'S, aiui against one another!

" When hell," says an illustrious writer, " prepares some terrible
calamity for mankind, it flings upon the earth a pregnant evil, consign-
ing its development to time." The time for the (levelopment of this
raiscliief was brief. The word was uttered, and it could not be re-
called : the prinriple was eslablishcjd, wliifh it w;ts tonlatt! to rescind.
The disciples of tho new apostles, reading, judging, deciding, became
p2

174 DEBATE ON TIIK

apostles themselves. They claimed the right their teachers exercised.
They claimed it to change, as they had changed. The Lutherans,
muUitudes of them, hecame Calviiiists ; Calvinists, Independents;
Independents, Anabaptists ; each sect the prolific parent of twenty
others, all differing from one another, as much as each one differed
from its parent — innovation. Mark now the inconsistency to which
the evil working of this scheme reduced the first claimants of a right
unheard of for fifteen centuries. " Obey !" they now cry aloud, with
terror, "obey your superiors; submit to the pastors whom God has
appointed to rule the faithful. It is their duty to instruct you, yours
to follow the guidance of their wisdom." " What," they exclaimed,
" becomes of the subordination which the scriptures so frequently en-
join, if each one can be the arbiter of his own belief? What becomes
of humility, which religion so forcibly inculcates, if every individual

f (resumes to be an oracle and a judge 1 Wiiat would become of civil
aw and social harmony and order, if the acts of our legislatures were
left to the interpretation of every interested litigant] Forbear! for-
bear !" Such was the restraint, as every one knows, which Luther
was under the inevitable necessity of imposing on the first followers
of his revolt, in order to counteract the'elTects of the disastrous prin-
ciple of mental emancipation, so highly eulogized when it was first
proclaimed, and received with so much enthusiasm, until it was found
to be a very Babel of the confusion of all creeds — another name, or
else a cloak, for deism and positive infidelity. When we reason on
principles rightly understood, whose immediate bearings and remotest
consequences have been exposed to the examination of the reflecting
world, for the last three hundred years, these arguments are as con-
clusive to-day, as they were when first urged ; and when the right of
any individual to believe whatever errors he honestly conceives to be
truths revealed in scripture, is contested, he may say to his accusers,
in the eloquent language of the Protestant remonstrants to the synod
of Don (itself Protestant), which had infringed their privileges in this
respect: "Why exact that our inspiration, or our judgment, should
yield to your opinion'? The opinion of any society, our apostles, the
first reformers, declared to be fallible; and, consequently, to exact
submission to its dictates, they, with great consistency, defined to be
tyranny. Thus they decided with regard to tiie church of Rome; and
you, yourselves, have sanctioned their decision. Why, therefore, ex-
ercise a domination over us, which you stigmatized as tyranny in a
church, compared to whose greatness you dwindle jnto insignificance.
If resistance to the decisions of our pastors be a crime, then let us
wipe out the stain of our origin, and run back together to the fold of
Catholicity, whicii you and we have abandoned. If such resistance
be no crime, why require of us a submission which we do not owe
you. Allow us to differ from you, as you do from the parent church."
From the unanswerable logic of this remonstrance, the conclusion
follows irresistibly : 1. That every society formed on Protestant prin-
ciples, being essentially fallible, none should assert the inconsistent
pretension of controlling faith by authority, or of regulating creeds,
under pretence of superior wisdom. 2. That no such society, and,
therefore, no individual, in such society, can be sure of being in the
right, as long as his Protestant neighbor, with as many resources of
information, and as piously inclined as himself, has embraced the very

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 175

contrary of his opinion. 3. That as the entire system is based on the
possibility of each one's beino; mistaken, vhere the most learned and
pious have adopted such opposite conclusions, no one can ever make
an act of divine faith, which is incompatible with uncertainty, and
much more so with error. 4. That, as long as such a principle is up-
held, there is no hope of union, no security ; consequently, that either
the whole system is false, or some expedient of union and unity must
be discovered, to induce any conscientious and rational inquirer after
truth, to believe that the Protestant society exemplifies the efficacy of
the prayer of Christ for his disciples, the night before he suffered, that
" Ihey may be made perfect in one^ We entreat our readers seriously
to look into the different religions professing to have been founded by
Jesus Christ, and seriously ask themselves the question, in which of
all these, that " perfect oneness" (which, better than all other proofs,
establishes the divinity of the Son of God, and convinces the entire
world how much his heavenly Father loved him, and those whom he
had given to him) may be found. Let not this inquiry be neglected,
fioryet performed lightly : eternal life or death may be the consequence
of its good or bad prosecution.

Error in religion, when it results from the neglect of sincere and
prayerful enquiry, is criminal. This no intelligent Christian will de-
ny. God is as essentially the God of truth, as he is the God of vir-
tue. He can no more sanction error, than he can tolerate vice. His
right is as absolute to the submission of the understanding, as to the
obedience of the will; and as he, who violates one commandment
will not be saved for the observance of the rest, so he that rejects
one truth, which Almighty God has revealed — not that we may ex-
amine, contest, adopt or reject — but that we may believe it, has lost
the merit of saving faith. It is to fix the otherwise perpetual varia-
tions of the human mind, and secure the anchor of our faith, not in
the moving sands of man's vacillating Judginriits and uncertain opin-
ions, but by lodging it deeply and indissohibly in the roc/?- which the
Divine Architect has made the foundation of his church, and against
which the winds of error and the rain of dissolving scandal will rage
and beat in vain, that the ]Vurd made Flesh vouchsafed to become the
I^ight of the world.

The misfortune of the great majority of mankind at the present
day, is not so much a blind fanatical attachment, (bad as this is) to
the sect in which they chanced to ho born, or worn first instructed,
as a certain latitude of principle, which has obtained the specio\is
name of liberality, and \\hicli rcsolv(;s itsrlf into a fatal and uiirca-
Bonable indifference to all religions, true or false. The infidel who
has had but too frequent occasion to exult at the success of a wily
system of hostility to revealed truth, affects to be unable to restrain
hiH delight at brliolding variety pervading the religious, as well
as the physical world. Diversity of creeds is as pleasing to his eye,
as the discrepancy of features in tht; human countenance. Incajiahle
of reasoning, out of the sphere of matUir, of which it is his inverted
ambition to be a part, he; holds the diflfi rent religions profcHsed by
men to be so many institutions, |)rescril>ing for each country a uni-
form manner of honoring («od in public; all foundrti and having their
peculiar reasons in the climate, tlu' mode of government, the genius

176 DKBATE ON THE

of the people, or in some other local cause, which renders one form
of religion preferable, for them, to another.

The conclusion to be drawn from this doctrine, in as much as it
levels all distinctions between trutli and falsehood, pood and evil, is
humiliatingr to reason — but tln^ infidel, for once consistent, recoils not
before it: the following is his language — " Sincerely profess, piously
practise the religion of the country in which you live. In other words,
born in a pagan country, adore its gods — sacrifice to Jupiter, to Mars,
to Priapus, or to Apollo. In Egypt, you will render divine honors
to the sacred ox, and the crocodile ; in Phenicia, you will pass your
children through the fires of Moloch ; in one country, you will im-
molate human victims to your idol ; in another, you will humbly bow
before a block of marble, or of wood — before an animal, fossil, or a
plant. Be not afraid ; God will not send one man to heaven for hav-
ing been born in Rome, nor another to hell for having been born in
Constantinople. Therefore, in the latter place you will cry, ' God is
God and Mahomet is his prophet ;' and in the former, you will ana-
thematise the impostor. A Christian in Europe, a Mussulman in
Persia, an Idolater in Congo, on the banks of the Ganges an adorer
of Vishnou, let not truth dictate the choice of your religion, but
chance — let not reason decide, but the measurement of a degree of
latitude, or longitude. Your credulous parent paid divine honors to
an onion ; preserve this domestic worship — a son can never do wrong
in following the religion of his father." But all this, it will be said,
is unworthy of God and degrading to man. Not at all, he replies,
all religions are equal — you were born in this, to practise another would
be presumption. Such is the reasoning of the instructor of Emile,
the theology of Hobbes, the profession of faith of the author of Zaire.

" Chretienne dans Faris, Mussulmane en ces lieux,
J'aurois avec la Grece adore les faux Dieux."

That the unbeliever should thus eat promiscuously of the fruit of
the tree of good and evil, life and death, should not create surprise.
His joy consists in his being able to doubt of the validity of the proofs
of religion — his only peace in life, his only security in death being
made to depend on the delusive conviction of the improbability of ever
arriving with certainty at the knowledge of revealed truth — the only
truth, after all, it must be admitted, which it is necessary for man to
know — and consequently the only truth which God is bound by all his
essential and unchangeable attributes to enable us to attain.

The basis of Protestant belief is, that the Scripture, this book of di-
vine revelation, is the only rule of faith ; and that Jesus Christ having
left on earth no living infallible authority to interpret it, every man is
obliged to expound it, for himself, or in other words, to seek in it the
religion, in which he is to live and by which he must be saved. His
duty is to believe, what, it seems to him, this book clearly teaches and
what as far as he has ascertained by subjecting it to the test of private
examination, contradicts not his reason : and as no man has a right to
say to another, " my reason is more vigorous, my judgment more sound
than yours," it follows that every man should abstain from condemn-
ing the interpretation of another and should consider all religions, at
least, as good and as safe as his own. This is the infidel principle in
disguise. The Deist takes the book of nature, the Protestant takes
the Bible. The former reads in his book, that the Supreme Being must

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 177

be pleased with the diversity of worship rendered him by his creatures,
that no one is to be more accountable for errors which, however discord-
ant in themselves, when softened and mellowed by being mingled with
the errors of others, ascend to the deity in the grateful harmony of uni-
versal praise. The latter, with this only difference that he contracts
the range of the Infidel's misapprehension of religion, and for the book
of the universe takes the bible, contends for the same erroneous prin-
ciple.

I need not shew, its workings to this enlightened audience. They
are ruinous in the extreme. — [Time expired.]

WEDNESDAY, Jaxdaby 18th., Half-patt 9 o'clock, J. M.

Mr. Campbell rise^ —

I appear before you this morning, fellow-citizens, in prosecution of
my third proposition: and as this is the fifth day of the discussion,
we must proceed with more despatch. We shall then advance direct-
ly to that part of our proposition which speaks of Roman Catholic uni-
ty and uniformity — only intimating to my hearers, that the bishop's
remarks in his last speech upon the infallibility of tradition; and his
effort to make the succession of the popes to rest upon the same au-
thority with our faith in the bible, will be disposed of under proposi-
tion the 6lh.

There are two bonds of union in all societies, general and special, —
the first connects with the whole ; the second with a part, one or more
individuals. We explain by examples: 1st. Take the Turkish em-
pire. It is united on the divine authority of the Koran, and the divine
mission of Mahomet. Acquiescence in these is the general bond of
union. But 2nd. There are special bonds, such as unite the respective
orders of Mahometans, as the orders of Ali and Omar. These orders
are distinct: they are united by a special construction of the Koran.
Belief in the Koran is like general attraction : agreement in a particu-
lar view of it is like attraction of cohesion. So among christians.
Roman Catholics are united in one great generic idea which charac-
terizes the whole sect. That is, the belief in a supreme head of the
church on earth — a vicar of Christ : and add to that, the exclusive
power and authority of the bishops. " Bishops are the bond of union
amongst (Jatholics." The clergy, indeed, are the general bond of
union amongst Romanists. But there are also special bonds and par-
ties in that society, of which wc shall take some notice. Protestants
have a general bond of union in a generic consideration, as distinguish-
ing as that of Mahometans and Roman ('alholirs. Acknowledging
the biblf alone, as the only |)erfect and sufficient rule of faith and man-
nerB, and the duty of all mankind to examine it for themselves, accord-
ing to their respective abilitips and opportunities, is th«; generic charac-
teristic of Protestants. It is one of the general ideas, in which are
united, antl whi'-h uiiitra all Proifstants. But in th« second place they
are united in a most perO^rt and unanimous rfimiicialion of that hier-
archical authority which is the very essence of Rnrnan (-atholicism.
I affirm that all Protralanls are as perfectly united in these two grand
principles, as the Roman Catholics arc in that of a supremo head in

178 DKBATK O.N TIIH

Rome, and ill the belief of tradition. Diflerent saints and their pecu-
liarities in the Roman Catholic church are specific bonds of union, and
as much heads of orders, as aro the leaders and views of Protestant
sects. But the Protestants are as much united in ads of worship, as
Roman Catholics. There are one or two Protestant sects, who differ
in some unimportant matters, and areas repugnant to each other as aro
Jansenists and Jesuits in the Roman church : but all Protestant sects
unite in several essential acts of religious worship — in the acknowl-
edgment of the same code of morals, and in the positive institutions
of Christianity, such as the Lord's day, the Lord's supper, baptism,
prayer, praise, &c. Sects and differences exist which ought not : but
still they harmonize as much in their general and special bonds of
union, as do the Romanists themselves. What are the Augustinians,
Dominicans, Franciscans, Jansenists, Jesuits, &c. but orders (or sects)
called after difierent saints, and united under special bonds and peculi-
arities ■? These parties in the Roman church areas pugnacious as Pro-
testant parties : communing with each other not more frequently, nor
more cordially than do Lutherans, Calvinists, Arminians, &c. They
contend warmly against each other. Their quarrels are as rank and
fierce as those of Protestants. But this is not all, my friends. Their
societ}' is divided on all the great orthodox points of Catholicism.
Some say the pope of Rome is supreme in all things on earth, tempo-
ral and spiritual, that he is a perfect representative of all the power of
Christ, religious and political. A second class disavow these large
claims — they say he is supreme only in ecclesiastical power : but that
he is absolute lord of the church. A third class differ again on the ex-
tent of that ecclesiastical supremacy. Some say the pope is above and
beyond the councils and clergy ; and that he can annul them at plea-
sure. A fourth party say he is subject to a general council, and is on-
ly a general superintendent, a mere president, or executive officer —
that the decrees of councils are the supreme law, and that the pope
merely executes them. Here are four distinct sects, on the generic
idea of the supreme head. Again there are four parties on the essen-
tial doctrine of infallibility. Some say it resides in the pope alone.
Bellarmine says, (and he is the organ of a principal party,) " that the
pope cannot possibly err ^ Gelasius says, "The church represented
by a general council is above the pope." A third party say, that infal-
libility resides in both the pope and a general council united. A fourth
say, that all this does not constitute infallibility, but that when the
whole church shall have acquiesced in a decree, and signified it by a
concurrent response, then, and not till then, are dogmas and decrees in-
fallibly correct. The first of these parties believes in the church vir-
iual; the second in the church representative ; the third in the church
diffusive; — the fourth in the church responsive, — as some of their canon-
ists have taught.

Yesterday, in discussing infallibility, I said it should be in the head,
if any where. My friend the bishop, says, it should be in the body :
and, to carry out the figure, if infallibility be in the body, the head
must be under the control of the body : for the fallible must yield to
the infallible. Now, the body is the animal part of every individual,
the seat of the passions and affections ; and therefore ought to be under
the dominion of the intellectual and moral head : yet this theory makes
this body, the sensual and animal body govern. No wonder, then,

ROMA!? CATHOLIC HELIGION. 179

that the Roman Catholic church is always corrupt. But from nature
and reason and revelation, 1 would incline to that party that places
the government in the head. There are the powers of government,
and there ought to be the sceptre. It is abhorrent to reason — nay it is
rather monstrous, to have the head under the dominion of the body.

But I hasten to show, that be the government where it may, in the
pope, the council, or the whole body, it is always fallible. I shall
begin with the head ; and here we have pope against pope. Adrian
VI. did, unequtvocalli/, disoivn Ike pope's infallibility. Now, from this
single fact, 1 prove the fallibility of the pope ; for Adrian was either
right, or he was wrong. If right, the pope is fallible; for he avows
that he is. If wrong, the pope is fallible ; for he was a pope and yet
did err. This is a dilemma never to be annihilated nor disposed of.
Pope Stephen VI. rescinded the decrees of pope Formosus. Pope
John annulled those of pope Stephen, and restored those of pope Ste-
phen. Sergius III. so hated Formosus and all that he did, as pope,
that he obliged all the priests he ordained to be re-ordained.

Sometimes popes have at one time condemned what themselves
passed at another time ; for instance, Martin V. confirmed the decree
of the council of Constance, which set a general council above the
pope, and yet he afterwards published a decree, forbidding all appeals
from the pope to a general council. He was certainly fallible, or,
rather, he certainly erred in one case or in the other. What then is true
of one pope officially, is true of all popes officially, and in proving a
few regular and canonical popes to be fallible, we prove them all to be
fallible.

Is the second opinion better — is a general council infallible ] I will
stale a fact or two: the council of Constance says the church in old
times allowed the laity to partake of both kinds — the bread and the
wine, in celebrating the eucliarist. The council of Trent says, the laity
and unofficiating priests may commune in one kind only. Here, then,
we have council against council. In the time of pope Celasius it was
pronounced to bo sacrilege to deny the cup to the laity : but now it is
uncanonical to allow it. The fourth council of Latoran, A. T). 1015,
says, with the concurrence and approbation of pope Innocent HI., that
the bread and wine in the act of consecration suffer a physical change.
Then we begin to read of transuhstantiation. Coun. Lat. iv. canon 1.
"Did the church always maintain this doctrine V Nay, verily, for a
host of fathers; nay the whole church for the first four centuries say
"the change is only moral,''' — a sanctification, or separation to a spe-
cial use. llere we might read a host of fathers, if we thought their
testimony necessary. The third council of Lateran, or the eleventh
CECumenical council, has decreed that

" JVnn tnim direnda sunt jiiramcula acd potiiis pcrjuria qua contra utilila-
tem tcrUsiasliram ft snnclornm patrtim vemnnt insliluta." Con. Lat. iii. rum
16 I^bbe. Ojunril Sarrosancl. vol. x. |). l.")!?.

Literally, they are not to be called oaths, but perjuries, which are taken
against the interests (f the church and (he holy fathers.

Now docs not ibis contradict Numb. xxx. 2, Lev. xix. IvJ, Dcut. xxiii.
23, Zech. viii. 17, Psal. xv. i, and Matthew v. "Thou shall perform
unto the Lord thine oaths."

Again, liie second council of Lateran, the tenth cecumonical council,
forbade the marriage of clergy. For 800 years the dcrf^y were allowed
to marry ! For the first COO yeara one-half the canons of councils

160 DEBATE ON THE

■were reo^ulatinfr the clorrry as to the affairs of matrimony and celibacy.
The ancient churcli had not yet learned to forbid marriage to the clergy ;
for with Paul the clergy yet believed, that " marriage was honorable
in all."

I have thus shown that the church of Rome is not uniform ; and need
we farther proof tliat she is mutable and fallible; — without that real unity
and uniformity of which she boasts T Have we not found pope against
pope, council against council, Uie church of one age against the church
of another age, and, by the acknowledgment of a pope, as much strife
and party as amongst Protestants.

Instead of reading that long essay yesterday, (I do not know what
it was about, nor who wrote it; I paid no regard to it, it being obvi-
ously read to fill up the time) — 1 say, that instead of such readings, I
expected a reply to my remarks on infallibility, or on some of the great
matters yet unnoticed; but without any more distinct avowal of his
notion of infallibility, I am left to plod my way as before. My op-
ponent admits his faith is not the bible alone, but that immense library
of one hundred and ihirty-Jive folios, already mentioned. But as he is
so silegt on this point, I have an author in my hand whom he has al-
ready commended in this city as good Koman Catholic authority ; and,
therefore, 1 quote him with his approbation. He has these 135 folios in
his eye ; and on the question, who shall interpret for public use — the Rt.
Rev. J. F, M. Trevern, D. D. bishop of Strasburg, late of' Aire, thus
speaks :

" If each of us was obliged to distinguish, among many articles, those which
come from tradition, and those which do not, he would find himself, in a general
way, condemned to a labor al)ove his strength. In fact, that part of the preach-
ing of the apostles which they did not commit to writing, was at first confided
soTelv to the memory of tlie faithful, fixed in particular churches by the oral io-
itructions of the first bishops, and afterwards collected partially and as occasion
fell out, in the writings of the fathers, and in the acts of the synods and councils.
Whence it follows, that to prove that such an article is truly of apostolic tradi-
tion, we must consult the belief of the particular churches, examine carefully the
acts of the councils and the voluminous writings of the fathers of the Greek
and Latin churches. Who does not sec that this labor requires a space of time
and extent of erudition, that renders it in general impracticable? There are,
indeed, to be found, men of extraordinary capacity and a])nlication, whose taste
and inclination lead them to this kind of research; with the aid of the rules of
criticism, all founded upon good sense, they balance and weigh authorities, they
distinguish between what the fathers taught, as indi\-idual teachers, and what
they depose as testifiers to the belief and practice of their time, and they attach
with discrimination the different degrees of credibility that are due, whether to
their doctrine or their deposition. The world is well aware that such labor
it calculated but for a small number: and again, after all how successful soever
it may be, it scarcely ever leads to incontestibte conclusions. We therefore are
in want of some other means that may enable us altogetlier with certainty to
arrive at the apostolic and divine traditions? The question is, what is this
means? *»»*»»«*«

Our author proceeds :

"The same judge, the same interpreter that unfolds to us the sense of the
divine books, manifest to us also, that of tradition. Now, this judge, this inter-
preter, I must tell you here again, is the teaching body of the church, the bish-
ops united in the same opinion, at least in a great majority. It is to them that,
in the person of the apostles, were made the magnificent promises: " Go teach,
I am with you; he that heareth you, hearcth me. The Spirit of truth shall teach
you all truth," tc. They alone then, have the right to teach what is revealed,
to declare what is the written or unwritten word: they alone also have always
been in possession of the exercise of it. No other ecclesiastics have ever pre-
tended to it, whatever have been their rank, their dignity, and learning. Ihey

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 181

may be consulted and heard; it is even proper this should be done, and it always
has been done; for they form the council of the bishops, and their erudition ac-
quired by long study, throws lio;ht upon the discussions. But as they have not
the plentitude of the priesthood, they are not members of the eminent body that
has succeeded the college of the apostles, and with it received the promises."
Vol. I. pp. 168, 169.

So then, to quote his words, as found on p. 108, " The opinions
adopted by the majority of the bishops are for all an infallible rule of
faith !" That is, " I believe in the holy Catholic church."

But the priesthood are sworn "to interpret the scriptures according
to the unanimous consent of the fathers." And if they do not, the
people that believe them are innocent ! ! But how can they unless
they examine all these fathers'? And what living man has read these
135 folios, with or without much care? In what a predicament is the
conscience and faith of this people! Here is a task, which I say,
never was, or can be, performed by man. The bishop can only fulfil
his oath by teaching what the Catholic church teaches. We have our
Old and New Testament without the apocrypha. They have the bible,
the apocrypha, and 135 folios. Let us now compare the Roman and
Protestant rules and interpretations ! Both rules, for the sake of argu-
ment, be it observed, need interpretation. But it so happens, that a
a Protestant bishop, and a Roman Catholic bishop, are equally fallible,
my opponent being judge. As the stream, then, cannot rise above the
fountain, both interpretations are fallible. Are we not equal?

Where do you find an infallible expositor of the bible 1 says the
Roman Catholic. I answer. Where do you find an infallible exposi-
tor of these volumes 1 You have a more difficult task, and no better
help, than we. The Protestants say that God can speak as intelligibly
as the pope, and that he is as benevolently disposed as any priesthood.
He does not require an infallible expositor; he is his own expositor.
His Spirit is the spirit of knowledge and eloquence, and can speak
intelligibly to every listener. As well might we say, that he who
made the eye carmot sec, as tli;!t he who gave man iniiul and speech can-
not address clearly and intelligibly that mind of which he is the author !
I ask the Romanist, however, on his own principles, where is his in-
fallible expositor of these 135 volumes ? I request a categorical answer.

Bishop P. A general council, or ihe pope, with the acquiescence
of the cliurcli at large.

Mr. C. How do we approach — where shall we find this council ?
It has not met for two hundred and seventy-five years. How can they,
therefore, settle a point between the bishop and iik; 1 Every age has
its errors and divisions. Kvery individual has his doubts. Ought
there not to be a general council eternally in session 1 If, then, there
is none — no infallible expositor extant ; wherein is the Romanist, with
all his proud assumption, sui)erior to the Protestant 1 It was three
hundred and twenty-five years from Christ before the first general
council; and it is two hundred and seventy-five years since the last
general council of Trent; and the church has been six hundred yrars,
at two periods, without an infallible expositor! To show the equality
of the two parties, suppose a .lew were converted to (Miristianity.
Suppose he had heard of just two sects of (^liristians ; all the rest
being annihilated, but the Roman (.'alholic and the I'roteslant. He
has read the New Testament. Ho wishes to join the church. He
goes to the Roman f'atholic bishop, and says; " I see two churches,

182 DEBATE ON THE

sir: I don't know which to join. I read that there is but one true
church." What does the bishoj) respond ? " Sir, you ought to join
our church." The Jew asks, " Your reason, sirl for the Protestant
also says, I ought to join his church." The bishop shows him Jiftecn
marks nf (he true church. He says, " Read the Bible, and see if these
marks are not characteristic of us ; and (hen judge for yourself." He
finds these marks involve the principal part of the New Testament.
He reads, however, and joins the church. Has he not decided this
question by examining the holy scriptures 1 Has he not interpreted
for himself ? Is not the bishop so far a true Protestant] or, has he
only become Protestant for the purpose of introducing this proBelyte'?
There is no getting out of this difficulty. I trust my good friend will
not pass it with a laugh, and a bold assertion, as usual. Has he not
in this renounced his own principles, and turned Protestant, for the
sake of gaining the Jew ]

But, when the Jew has entered the church, and the bishop has told
him he must now believe as the church believes, for he cannot under-
stand the Bible : " What !" responds the Jew ; " sir, have I not deci-
ded the greatest question to me in the universe ? I believed in Jesus,
and I have found the true church by exercising my own judgment on
the scriptures ; and can I not now judge of minor questions 1" May
I not again say, that the two systems are perfectly equal ] The eter-
nal circle of vicious logic — you must believe the scriptures on the
authority of the church, then the church on the authority of the
scriptures : or, you must act as did the aforesaid Jew, on the advice
of the bishop. There is not a middle course. My learned antagonist
cannot show you a middle way. But I have not yet done with this great
theme. I wish to display in other attitudes, these two " rules of
faith:'

And, first, I shall sketch the Protestant rule. Its attributes are
seven. I. // is inspired. 2. It is auihuritative. 3. It is intelligible.
4. // is moral. 5. It is perpetual. 6. // is catholic. 7. II is perfect.
We will now prove this.

1. It is inspired: for, '■'■ Holy men rf God,'' says Peter, ^^ spoke at
they were moved by the Holy Spirit.'"

2. Authoritative. " The word that /speak to you, shall judge you
in the last day," says the Lord from heaven,

3. Intelligible, To the Ephesian converts he saith, " When you
read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ."

4. Moral. "The word of the Lord is pure, rejoicing the heart."

5. Perpetual. "The word of the Lord endurelh for ever; and this
is the word which has been announced to you as glad tidings."

6. Catholic. " He that is of God, heareth God's word." " Preach
the word." " Preach the gospel to every creature."

7. Perfect. " From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise to salvation." " All scripture given by
inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for correction, for instruc-
tion in righteousness, thoroui^hly fur 7u shed to every good work."

All Christendom assents to this. My opponent admits the bible to
be inspired. His rule makes his church a sect; for only a part be-
lieve in his traditions. All christians admit our rule of the bible.

\\.\s perfect. Such is the Protestant rule. Now for the Romanist
rule ! The bible being a part of the Roman Catholic rule, is such

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 183

only as explained by the apocrypha, the tradkions of the fathers, the
decrees and canons of councils, or in the hands of bishops ; so com-
pletely humanized, as to lose all its peculiar attributes, and is made
to partake of all the characters of the mediums, through which it is
given to that people ; and, therefore, of the whole Roman Catholic
rule, the attributes are just the opposite of those seven of the Pro-
testant's.

1. It is uninspired : consequently, being human, it can have no au-
thority over the conscience ; and this makes it

2. Unauthoritative. God alone is Lord of the conscience, and no
man can make a law to govern it. Hence a christian never can be
subordinate to any institution in religion, that wants the sanction of
divine autliority.

3. Unintelligible. No man can ever find time to examine all the
creed of Roman Catholics. It is constantly accumulating; and if any
one had time to read it all, he never could understand it.

4. Immoral. This is that attribute which I wish specially to con-
sider. The other properties arc all consequences of those already no-
ticed. But this demands a candid and faithful examination. It gives
me no pleasure to dwell upon this theme, to expatiate on the immoral
character of the papistic rule of faith. 'Tis here, indeed, we find the
root of the manifold corruptions of that institution ; and as I came here
not to flatter, but to oppose error and defend truth, it is my duty con-
scientiously and benevolently to expose the immoral tendencies of this
system.

We have heard the gentleman say, he was glad of an opportunity to
discuss Catholicism, to make Protestants understand better its peculiar
doctrines. I wish, myself, to hear his expositions, to see if he can
make it more acceptable. Therefore, I shall endeavor to tell my story,
candidly and faithfully, and give him the opportunity he desires. This
is my first effort against Romanism. It was not of my selection or
seeking, that I now appear before you : but as I am providentially, as
I regard it, on this arena, I shall reveal to you some of the secrets of
that institution, which seeks to be rooted in this Protestant soil. I
shall attempt this in the best spirit: for I wish to see my opponent
honorably wipe from his escutcheon any stain of the kind, that I may
allege. On these points, I shall be happy to be assured that his sys-
tem ill better than we Protestants can now regard ii.

I say, tlien, the Roman (-'atholic rule of faith is inunnral. This, my
friends, is a serious and weighty charge, and deserves to be clearly and
fully sustained. Before dis|)hiying my proof, I will only premise,
that auricular confession, penance, the mass, absolution, and other
parts of the system will pass before us in this allegation, sustaining
which, will anticipate some of our labors on the other propositions.

I shall first read from the (Jatechism of the council of Trent on the
power of the priesthood to forgive sin, according to their rule of faith.
Aurirqlar confession, is by this infallible council declared ' necessary
for the remission of sins."

"The Tolrc of the priful," ta)\ the council of Trent, who is I<f;iliinnte!y con-
•tituted ■ niuii»ler for tin- miiiN-.ion of ninii, i<i to hv hriird an that of C'hrint liini-
•elf, who iiiid to the Iniiir tnan, '• .Son, be of good cheer, th'j sirU nre forgiven
thtt." Cat. {'ounril of Tnnl, p. I!!0,

Penance by the same council is thus defined :

Form ok \'KyAti<:t..~" I'cnance it the < Imnnel throiiRh which the Mood of
G 10

184 DEBATE ON THE

Christ flou's into the soul, and washes away the stains contracted after baptisnj."
III. lb. " The ibrni of the absolution or pardon, granted by the priest, is this;
" I AliSOI.VE TUEE." Id. p. 181.

The priest says positively, *'■ I absolve thee.'''' Unlike the authority
of him, who anciently declared the leper clean, he claims really and
truly to absolve. The council declares :

" Unlike the authority given to the priests of the old law, to declare the leper
cleansed from his Itprosv, the power with which the priests of the new law are
invested, is not simply to declare that sins are forgiven, but as the ministers of
God really to absolvcfrom sin." Id. p. 182.

The priests, then, a» the ministers of God, really absolve from sin.
And more insolent still, the priest is said not only to represent Christ;
but to discharge the functions of Jesus Christ:

" The rites used in the administration of this sacrament, also demand the seri-
ous attention of the faithful. Humbled in spirit the sincere penitent casts him-
self down at the feet of the priest, to testify, by this his humble demeanor, that
he acknowledges the necessity of eradicating pride, the root of all those enor-
mities which he now deplores. In the minister of God, who sits in the tribunal
of penance as his legitimate judge, he venerates ihc.power and person of our Lord
Jesus C/irts/; for in the administration of this, as in that of the other sacraments,
the priest represents the character, and discharges the functions of Jcstis Christ."
Coun. Trent, p. 182.

Again Roman Catholics teach that penance remits all sin :

" I'here is no sin, however grievous, no crime, however erroneous, or howe-
ver frequently repeated, which penance does not remit." Id. p. 183.

This is the proper ground on which to claim the most servile obedi-
ence to the priests :

"If therefore, we read in the pages of inspiration, of some who earnestly im-
plored the mercy of God, but implored it in vain, it is because they did not repent
sincerely, and from their hearts. When we also meet in the sacred scriptures,
and in the writings of the fathers, passages which seern to say that some sins are
irremissible, we are to understand such passages to mean, that it is very difficult
to obtain the pardon of them. A disease may be said to be incurable, when the
patient loathes the medicine that would accomplish hiscurp; and, in some sense,
some sins may be said to be irremissible, when the sinner rejects the grace of
God, the proper medicine of salvation." Id. ib. " The penheni must submit
himself to thejudfrment of the priest who is the vicegerent of God." Ib. p. 183.

Therefore, all must confess once a year.

"According to the canon of the council of Lateran, which begins: Omnei,
utriusque sexus, it commands all the faithful to confess their sius at least once a
year." Id. p. 193.

But this immoral law presumes farther yet. It changes the laws of
God, and divides sins into venial and mortal, and fixes the price. As
every thing dopends upon the authority of these allegata I have hitherto
quoted from the catechism of the council of Trent,* I now introduce
one of the most popular of the saints of the modern church. This
saint Ligori was sainted by saint Pius VII. that best of modern popes,
who restored the order of the Jesuits, and the " Holy Inquisition."
Saint Ligori writes the moral theology of the church of Rome in some
eight or nine volumes : and so orthodox, that his works are owned al-
most by every priest. I quote from a synopsis of that system of which
we shall hereafter speak more particularly. We shall hereafter hear
the saint in his definitions of sins.

" This is a mortal sin," says Ligori, " which, on account of its enormity, de-
stroys the grace and friendship of God, and deserves eternal punishment. It is
called mortal, because it destroys the principle of spiritual life, which is habitual
grace, and kills the soul.

* Bee Catechism, council of Trent, as revised by John Hughes of Philadelphia, priest of
St. John's church, pp. 192, 193.

ROMAN CATHOLIC HELIGION. 185

Venial sin is that which, on account of its levity, does not destroy the grace
and friendship of God although it diminishes the lervor of charity, and deserves
a temporal punishment. It is called venial, because the principle- of the spiritual
life, grace, being- still sound, it allV-cts the soul with languor, that is easily cured,
the pardon of w-liii-li is easily obtained." Ligor. lib. v. n. 51. [Synopsis, p. 20.

The Roman Catholic rule of faith erects a tribunal of confession un-
known in scripture, and commands all to come to it at least once a
year. It moreover institutes a new office called confessor, unknown
in the New Testament, and gives to him the office of a father, a phy-
sician, a teacher, and a judge.

" The ollicfs that a good confessor is bound to exercise," " are four: namely,
those of Father, Physician, Teacher, and Judge." Ligor. Theol. T. viii. p. 7.

The confessor forgives all sins on confession, even the sin against

the Holy Spirit:

"There is no sin, however grievous, no crime however enormous, or howerer
frequently repeated, which penance does not remit." Cat. Conn. Trent, p. 183.

Penance here means the "Tribunal of confession:" for this tri-
bunal is sometimes called simply " co?)/css?"o7i," " The sacrament of
confession :" at other times it is called the " tribunal of penance."
Sometimes simply " Penance," and he who confesses is called " the
penitent." But satisfactions and penances are to be apportioned ac-
cording to the discretion of the priest.

".-Vriording to the council of Titiit, (Sess. xiv. c. 8.) the satisfactions" (by
which tliey mean penancea,)" ought to be in proportion to the crime, since those
confessors to/io enjoinUglU penances fur grievous sins, participate of those sins;
nevertheless the contessor, for just reasons, can diminish the penances, provided
the penitent is affected with violent compunction, or if it be during the time of
a jubilee, or a plenary indulgence, and especially, if he labor under any infirmi-
ty of body or mind. And lastly, (to be brief,) always wlienever a prudent fear
is entertained, lest the penitent would not perforin penance due to his sins.
Such is the common doctrine taught by the doctors, with St. Thomas." Ligor.
Prax. Con. N. ii.

But still worse: this immoral law or rule of faith repeals and annuls
certain positive divine laws. I have here two catechisms, published
by the authority of the church. They have both expunged wholly the
second commandment ; so that it should not stand in the way of pay-
ing reverence to images. [Time expired.]

I!,ilfj)UHl 10 n'rhKh, A. M.
Bisiior Pi;nf;Ki.[, rises —

If my friend, Mr. Campbeli,, has failed to establish against the
Catholic church, a single one of those propositions, which have been
80 conspicuously before the public for the last two or three months,
and if I have established two or three of them against his own vague
theory, it is not for want of splendid abilities on his part, or the pos-
session of thein on mine. The reason of bis failure, is the inherent
weaknns.s of the cause be advocates, as the true .secret of my success,
is to bo found in the impe nolrable, diamond strength and beauty of the
institution, which, in an evil hour for \\\h paitt glory as a controversial-
ist, he volunteered to attack. He has this d;iy (and again F (bank him)
brought up, for discussion, tin; most important snbjprt that can occupy
or engross the aitt titinn of this enligbtcned audicnci', vix. the rule of
ftith. If fairly pul)lislM(l, as I have every niason to believe this con-
troversy will be, it will send forth sound and useful information,
through the whole length and breadth of ibe land, upofi a topic of the
most vital interest; and I will, most joyfully, meet Mr. C. on that
<2 2 24

186 DEBATE 0>J THE

question, for I hail with exultation such an opportunity of dispelling
prejudice and misunderstanding with regard to our real principles. /
ff;7/ gifc categorical ansivcrs to all the qiicstiuns he has propounded ;
and, therefore, do I take up the subject he has been pleased to touch.
1. He says, the methods of electing the pope are various. But let
that pass : the method is nothing. It is with his authority we are con-
cerned. He has wasted much time in building up a house of sand, to
show how easily he could demolish it, by sliowing that the pope is
not infallible; whereas, I have repeatedly told him, that the Catholic
church has never taught that the pope's infallibility was an article of
faith. He spoke of some more or less important but unessential points of
difference of opinion between Dominicans and Jesuits. But he should
have shown, to establish the proposition before this house, that these or-
ders disagree with regard to articles of faith. Their minor differences are
nothing, so long as they implicitly believe every article of faith revealed
by almighty God and proposed for their belief by the church, which they
all hear, and which they regard as the '* pillar and ground of the
truth." Tiiis is the solid and immovable foundation of their union.
The case of t!ie cup given to, or withheld from, the laity, as I have
already told him, is one merely of discij)line. It may now be given,
or not, as the pope may see cause. In the time of Gelasius, it was
pronounced sacrilege to deny the cup to the laity ; and, if all my
hearers had read church history, I need not tell them, it was because
of the leaven of Manicheism still working in pretended communi-
cants, who forbade the use of wine as coming from the evil principle. No
father of the church, however, said, that the consecration of the eucharis-
tic species, is a mere ' separation,' or the change only a ' moral change.'
I defy him to the proof. Mr. C. says : " So far Protestants and Cath-
olics are equal ;" for, that they have also a grand generic principle,
viz : that the Bible is their rule of faith, and the Bible alone. Now,
I take up the organ of a numerous body of christians, the Christian
Palladium, and I meet him here with a strong argument in my favor,
upon this principle. Speaking of Mr. Campbell, (I mean by this no per-
sonality, that can be thought invidiorrs : I intend none) the editor ob-
serves : " He frequently speaks of ' the Bible alone ,-' but this is not a
term'used generally by the brethren in New England, and is taught
by few except Mr. C We never knew our brethren to boast of walk-
ing by the Bible alone. This w^ regard as an error, let who will
PROCLAIM IT. We say, give us the Bible, but not alone. Let us have
A God, a Christ, a Spirit, and a ministry accompanying it. There
was a law given to the Jews, and also a testimony, which they were
bound to observe. The testimony of the inspired prophets did not con-
tradict the law, but taught and enforced the same truths. The ancients
were to walk by the law and the testimony, which was called a word.
(Is. viii. 20.) What this " redoubtable captain" oi reform says, of
sailing sometimes under this flag and sometimes under that, is per-
fectly applicable to — " but I will not read further: this is sufficient
for my argument. The Bible alone is not the rule of faith to all Pro-
testants. Quakers, Mormons, &c., think not so, as I have already
proved. And, now, Mr. Campbell can do infinitely more with the in-
tellects of his hearers, than the pope has ever done with those of Cath-
olics, if he can persuade them that the differences between Protestants,
who all take the Bible for their rule of faith, are unimportant. Is the

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 187

divinity of Christ an important or an unimportant article ? One class
of Bible-reading Protestants admit the doctrine; another reject it with
horror: pretty unity this! The Episcopalians believe in the necessity
of submission to the bishops; and eloquently have I heard the author-
ity of the church advocated by them. They do not say that the church
is infallible, and in tliis they are inconsistent. But will they allow that
the dilTerence between them and Presbyterians is unimportant 1 Is the
doctrine of a hell, with endless torments there for the wicked, unim-
portant] One class of Bible-readers hold this also, and another class
reject it! Alas! for the declaration of my friend, that he can prove
whatever he states to be a fact. I strongly suspect a man who makes
such asseverations.

He is loud in his panegyrics on the unity of Protestants in essential
acts of worship: they pray together, &c. If this were even so, of
what avail is it, when they differ in essential doctrines. But, is not my
friend aware, that this is by no nueans a fact? And what reliance can
we place on his statements of what occurred centuries ago, when here,
at home, and refutation nigh at hand, he makes such curious assertions 1

Did not a case occur, last summer, within sixty miles of Cincinnati,
at Dayton, when the Episcopalian minister, the Rev. Mr. Allen, for-
bade the Rev. Mr. Peahody, a Unitarian clergyman, of irreproachable
morals and great amiableness of disposition, to preach in his church ?
Did not the bishop reprimand llie vestry, and Episcopalian minister,
for having previously allowed him to preach there] I think the
Episcopalian bishop acted, in this respect, as he should have done. I
blame none of the parties concerned, but I slate an incontrovertible
fact. Again, at Pottsvillc, Pennsylvania, another case occurred. A
Unitarian minister died there, and the Episcopal clergyman refused to
say prayers at his funeral, because of his religious belief. What,
then, becomes of my friend's vague and general assertion, about unity
among Protestants in essential acts- of worship ] Will lie, then, ex-
communicate the Unitarian] and, if he once begin, how many more
sects must be put out of the pale ]

Let him shew me that a Jesuit or a Doipinican, a Franciscan, or a
Benedictine, or an Augustinian ever refused to let a member of either
of these orders preach in his cinircli, or to say prayers over a corpse
because of the diffi-rcnco of orders] Such a thing has never been lu-ard
of; 80 that wo have unity, and Protestants have none, neither in doc-
trine, nor in worship; neither in essentials nor in non-essentials, them-
selves being judges.

If my hearers wish for a practical and convincing proof of Catholic
uniformity of faith, they have only to enquirt? of the emigrants from
the various countries of Europe, who have (led from the oppression of
their rulers at home, to find free and haj)py homes amongst us here,
and I promise them that however awkward their appearance, hdwever
broken their language, or uncouth liieir ai)i)arui, tliey will all answer
the same on doctrinal points. America, Asia, Europe, Africa, New
Holland, our faith is every where the same, like our God and our
church. Who can make void the prayer of ('hrist for unity ] Who
can disturb the church's union] Ah well iniirlit he prct.'iid to make
the harmony of hi aven to sleep. Is tliis union exem|)lifRid among
Protestants] The very contrary is true. And why] Because the
apple of discord is flung among thern. The seeds of disorganization and

188 DEBATE ON THE

death were thickly sown in Protestantism from the birth. Sects multiply
without end — their name is Leirion. My friend was quite witty, about
the 135 ponderous folios which, according to him, a Catholic must
read to understand the doctrines of his church. But does he not per-
ceive that a Protestant is infinitely worse off ^ For he must read lan-
guages in which the fathers of the church have not written — Hebrew,
Syriac, Arabic; as well as those in whicli the fathers did write, Greek,
Latin, &c. before he can form a prudent judgment that he has acquired
the elementary knowledge necessary to understand his rule of faith.
He must read folios of commentators and learned dissertations on
controverted texts. He must decide for himself what books of scrip-
ture are genuine and what apocryplial, or spurious. For this purpose
he must explore the archives of the ancient, churches, all the dusty
tomes and ponderous folios of the ecclesiastical writers, to ascertain
what books were regarded in their times as canonical, and what as un-
canonical. And when he has, if ever, accomplished this herculean
task, he will be no better off than when he began, for he can never re-
ly on the testimony of those fathers, whom he considers just as liable
to have been mistaken as himself! Thus he can never be sure that he
possesses objective truth, or the revealed will of God : he can never
be sure that he possesses subjective truth, that is, that he has a perfect
knowledge of what that will is. Thus he can never be sure that his
rule of faith is inspired, authoritative, perfect. / call on my learned
friend to prove the contrary of this argument, if he can. And if he can-
not, I have clearly established the contrary of his proposition, viz :
that Protestants are not uniform in their faith, neither can they be. Now
mark the difference on the Catholic side of the argument. We go for
the Bible and tradition — the whole word of God, written and unwrit-
ten. We take the Bible and the church; the Bible and the testimony.
This renders for us assurance doubly sure. We believe that Christ
established a church on earth which he made the guardian of the divine
deposite. From that church, that divinely appointed guardian we receive
the heavenly gift. She vouches for its accuracy, and on her testimony
w^e receive the Bible, as an inspired, authoritative, perpetual, Catholic,
perfect, and, explained by her, intelligible volume. But as we know
on the authority of St. John xviii. 21, 25, that the world itself could not,
as he thought, contain all that Christ spoke, and he always spoke
to instruct or edify — as we know that Peter " ivith many other words'^
not recorded in the Acts of the Apostles, convinced the Jews that
Jesus was the Messiah — as we know moreover that St. Paul com-
manded the Thessalonians, 2d. Ep., 2d. ch., 11. v. to hold the /ra-
<fi7?o;is wiiich they had learned, WieZ/ur by the word, or his epistle;
and ordered Timothy to hold the form of sound words which he had
heard from him, in faith; we therefore place the word of God, so con-
veyed to us, by the side of Scripture, and in this, as 1 have just shewn,
the Scripture itself is our guide. Our traditions do not, like those of
the Pharisees whom Christ reproached, make the Scripture void. We
believe nothing contrary to the Bible — nothing that the Bible does not
clearly approve. The same God that revealed the Bible, established
the church. They do not contradict, tliey mutually sustain each other.
I did not say that the pope is inspired, that the council is inspired, or
that the church is inspired; but I do say that the church, whether as-
sembled in a general council, or diffused throughout the world, is as

BOMAN CATHOLIC nELIOlON. 189

certainly assisted by the Holy Ghost to teach all truth, as the evan-
gelists and other writers of the Holy Scriptures were inspired by the
same divine Spirit to write the special truths which they were commis-
sioned to reveal to pariicular churches, and on particular occasions. A
Catholic is under no necessity of knowing every thing that has been
ever said or done by the doctors and fathers of the church, before he
can understand what are the articles of his faith. He knows that, in
regard to doctrine they unanimously agree in receiving the Apostles'
creed. Hence he is sure that, " I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and Earth" is an article of faith which none of these
fathers contradict, and he has the same absolute certainty with regard
to all the remaining articles, viz: 1 believe in Jesus Christ, in the
Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the
forgiveness of sins. So far for the doctrine; besides which articles
he is in the habitual state of mind to believe implicitly whatever God
has revealed and proposed by his church. Then for the natural and
moral law he has an equally comprehensive epitome, viz : the Ten
commandments of God ; with respect to which he knows that there
has never been the slightest difference of opinion.

Neither the pope, nor a general council, nor the whole church has
now, or ever had, the power to change, or suppress an article of the
creed, or a precept of the decalogue. Is there any thing vague in
this? any thing indistinct? any thing unscriptural or antiscriptural '?
My friend docs not hear, or correctly state what I say. I did not
say that the body ruled the head. It would be a contradiction in terms ;
because the body supposes a head and a heart, which every body
ought to have. There must be no schism in the body. He has made
some very elo((uei\t observations on the impossibility of determining
where the infallibility resides, whether in the head or in the body or
both &c. in the pope, or in a general council, and argues that we may
therefore as well have none at all. Now, let me illustrate this point.
Has not my fritiid a mind and one too hiohly endowed by nature ?
Well, does hr; kiimv where it resides? Is it in his licad ; or in his
heart, or in his stomach ? (a laugh) Does he know where to put his
hand upon it? 'I'here are various theories iipon this subject among
scientific mrn. Hut who denies that he has a mind ? I repeat, who
denies the exislenre of mind? Does it aH'crl this belief to say that
we cannot tell wlu-thcr it is here or there — in the body or around it ? So
it is with the heavenly mind that guides the clnirrh. Even if we did
not know its exact place of residence, we could easily judge of its
influence and guidance by its effects. But we do know where it evin-
ces its presence, as I have morr: than once cxplaiiu'd to the gentleman.
What has Adrian's opinion todo with tin; (luistioii ? It was but his
personal, private opinion, and no article of faith. \N lictlicr this opi-
nion was right, or wrong, all I said stands good. 'I'lm witty conceit
of my friend was a sophistry suggested by the pagan oracles, who
coulrl respond in such ambiguous terms, that it might be interpreted
in favor of the oracle's foreknowledge according to the event; for
instance a king going out to battle would be told, " Vou will destroy a
great city;" but whether it was his own, nrhis enemies', depended on
the issue. 'I'he idea is borrowed from I'agan craft.

[I am now admonished to dilate a little longer on the; decision of
the council of (Constance with regard to the ' Cup.' I have frequently,

190 DEBATE ON THE

in my intercourse with persons not Catholic, heard this difTiculty pro-
posed ; and I am glad of the opportunity, once for all, of explaining
It. Why does the Roman Catholic church withhold the cup from
the laity 1 In the early ages, the holy eucharist was communicated to
the faithful under either species; often under hoth. When the eucha-
rist was carried, as it was the practice of primitive christians to carry
it with them in all their sojournings, by sea and land, as wine was ex-
posed to sour in tropical climes, they consequently carried, on their
travels, only the species of Bread. Did they believe that the virtue
of the eucharist was thus destroyed 1 No. They knew with St. Paul
that Jesus Christ, rising from the dead, dieth no more. Death shall
no longer have dominion over him. They knew therefore that his
flesh was living flesh, not dead and bloodless ; and that, consequent-
ly, in the eucharist, under either species the flesh and blood are in-
separably united.

What was the reason of the abolition of the practice 1 When the
deacons distributed the consecrated elements to the faithful, there
were many infirm, decrepit, and palsied communicants, from whose
trembling hands, or lips, it was feared, as it had frequently occurred,
the cup might fall, and thus might the holy elements l3e trodden under
foot and profaned. A contrary usage was therefore instituted, and it
has since prevailed. The dislike, indeed disgust, which many persons
feel for wine, the unwillingness to drink from a chalice which had
passed from mouth to mouth, &c. &c. are causes which, in all pro-
bability, prevent a change in the present disciplinary regulation, but
the church could to morrow reestablish the abolished practice of giv-
ing the cup to the laity, if she please. She did so, since the Pro-
testant reformation, in favor of the Bohemians.

The subject of oaths and perjuries was quoted. Any man in his
sober senses must discern that my friend has mistaken the meaning
of the pope. Examine the circumstances. He supposes the truth
that the church neither can nor does require any thing contrary to
justice and judgment, and truth, which, in all her standards, and in all
her catechisms, she teaches as the essential conditions, for every law-
ful oath. Again, she every where teaches, with St. Paul, that an oath,
contrary to conscience, is a sin.

The pope knew that the church could not — that God himself, who
founded her as the pillar and ground of the truth, could not be pleas-
ed with sin, or served by a lie. Let me illustrate this matter and
set it at rest for ever. An infidel, swears that he will write against
the utility of the bible, deny its authenticity, undermine its evidences,
cast it into the flames. Is his oath an act of religion ] Is it not rather
a perjury 1 Again — a man swears to take away the life of another
man, justly or unjustly, he boots not. Is not his oatl\ a perjury,
rather than an oath, since it is manifestly against the utility of socie-
ty and, consequently, against the order of God 1 It is remarkable that
the pope speaks too of an oath against the teaching of the fathers,
" con/ra instituta patrum," than whose sermons against all grievous
crimes, and in an especial manner, against perjury, nothing can be
conceived more denunciatory, niore truly terrific. Is it fair — is it lo-
gical, to draw from the premises a conclusion so vituperative T

To force a shadow of uniformity, the thirty-nine articles wore drawn
up by the church of England, and the clergy of that church, by a cruel
tyranny over conscience, compelled to swear to them. Many eminent

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION'. l»i

divines of that church have taught that the articles nre not to be
sworn to with unqualified assent, but that the mental reservation, as
I understand them, is allowed : while the sovereign lord, or lordess,
of church and state, and many no less eminent divines, have insisted
that the articles must be sworn to with the most entire and unqualifi-
ed submission. Is this, in my friend's estimation, the reverence due
to the solemnity of an oath ] or is it not taking the holy name in
vaini Catholic priests in this country take no oath. I took none.
The first oath I took was one of allegiance to the United States, ab-
juring all foreign potentates, &c., as the oath is couched. This oath
I took in the hands of Judges John and Thomas Buchanan, in Fred-
erick, Maryland. I also took an oath, several years afterwards, when
consecrated a bishop, to testify my belief in a faithful adherence to
the doctrines of my church. This was a further confirmation of the
oath which I had previously taken. This is no immorality.

We are again referred to a change in the ^doctrine'' of the church.
"The second council of the Lateran," so says Mr. C. ^^ forbade the
marriage of ike clergy, whereas nothing was more common in the first
eight centuries than for priests to marry. ^'' Now, in the first place,
celibacy is no part of Catholic doctrine, at all. It is not an article
of faith. The pope could, to-morrow, change that law, and allow
the Roman Catholic clergy, as the Greek priests do, to marry. It is
one of the bright features of our ministry, that the time and means,
which the care, and support of a family would engross, are devoted by
a priest to the advantage, spiritual and temporal, of his flock. Marriage
is a good, wise, and noble institution. " Increase and multiply," is the
command of God. But we hold that it is more perfect, or as St. Paul
says, " IT IS GOOD " for the " Priests of the Lamb " to abstain. God,
for whose sake they make the sacrifice, will sustain them'through temp-
tation. Keep thyself chaste, says St. Paul to Timothy, 1st Ep. ch.
V. 21. Again, St. John says: "And I heard a voice from heaven, as
the voice of harpers harping on their harps, and they sung as it were
a new canticle, before the throne, and before the four living creatures
and the ancients ; and no man could say the canticle, but those hun-
dred and forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth.
These are they who were not defiled with women : for they are vir-
gins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were
purchased from among men, the first-fruits to (Jod and to the Lamb :
and in their mouth there was fumd no lie; for they arc without spot
before the throne of (Jod." What docs all this mean? Is it not evi-
dently the highest eulogy that could be pronounced on the state to
which their holy functions, as priests of the spotless Victim of
our altars, daily summon the clergy of our church ? I glory in this
feature of our discipline. Death before dishonor to a virginal priest-
hood !

In the second place it is a wide mistake, to say that nothing was
more common, for the first six hundred years, than for priests to mar-
ry. The general council of Nice enforced, by a special enactment,
the celibacy of the clergy. This was the first general council of the
Catholic church ; and the practice, it enforced, was no innovation.
The councils of Neo (/'acsarea and Ancyra had, several years previ-
ously, made laws to this cflTect for priests and deacons. How was
the circumstance introduced into the council of Nicel Several bish-
ops, priests and deacons, had been married before their onliuation. It

192 DEBATE ON THE

was proposed to compel those who had not voluntarily returned to
singleness of life, to separate from their wives. Paphnuicus, an un-
married bishop, in consequence of the abuse the Manichaeans, who
considered marriage as coming from tlie evil principle, dissuaded the
council from this course, and so the bishops agreed, for all past mar-
riages. So generally, however, was the celibacy of the Greek clergy
then established, that even Protestant historians — Mosheim, 1st vol.
p. 65, — complain of the melancholy, morose and unsocial institution,
in the second century.. "The sensual man," says St. Paul, " per-
ceiveth not the things that are of the Spirit of God, for it is foolishness
to him.'''' 1st Cor. ii. 14. But of the many curious things which my
friend has said, most unwittingly, in my favor, in the course of this
debate, the most curious of all is that he should have, himself, in-
formed us, that for the first six hundred years, one half the canons
were occupied with the regulation of the clergy as to this affair of
celibacy ! ! And why, if the clergy were allowed to marry ? Is not
this, independently of the acts of these councils, which have reached
us, irresistible proof of the care taken to obtain an unmarried, a pure
clergy 1 This is not immorality.

Confession is not an immoral doctrine. It is a holy institution.
This I shall prove in due course of time. I agree with the venerable
bishop Trevern, the learned author of the "Amicable Discussion," and
of the "Answer to Faber's Difficulties of Romanism." Let my friend
but study these pages with sincerity, and he, too, will become a Catho-
lic. How different the doctrine of the Catholic bishop of Strasburgh,
and of the Protestant bishop Onderdonk, of Philadelphia, The for-
mer shews clearly how the most humble Catholic can have a divine
assurance for the truth of his religion ; the latter, as I have myself
heard him declare, in St.Paul's church, Philadelphia, in the year 1832,
(and his pastoral charge has been since published, and it will prove
what I here say,) teaches that not even the most learned Protestant
can ever be positively sure that either himself or his church is right !
And yet, St. Paul says, without faith it is imposnibk to please God. By
faith, he of course means true faith — and yet the Protestant bishop says
we never can be sure that we have that faith ! What becomes now of
the Protestant infallibility, for which my friend so strenuously argued
to-day ■? The bishop's conclusion, on Protestant grounds, is more rea-
sonable than Mr. C.'s. As long as two pious and able men, of different
denominations, after all their efforts at truth, come to different and op-
posite conclusions upon essential matters, how can either say "I am
right," and " my neighbor is wrong]" What, I am asked, is the course
I would pursue with one who is not yet a christian, but anxious to be
instructed in the evidences of Christianity? Why, the course I would
pursue is this: / would address his reason alone, as long as lie has no
better guide — convince him that the bible is, at least, authentic his-
tory — and that he can rely upon the truth of the facts recorded in it,
as he would on human testimony. I would introduce him to Jesus
Christ, whose character is there portrayed, whose miracles are there
recorded. I would tell him why he came on earth ; how he founded a
church to explain whatever was difficult in the bible, after having col-
lected all its books together, what no man could do for himself; how
he established that church as the pillar and ground of the truth, and
said of its pastors, "He that hearelh you, heareth me;" and when I

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION'. 193

had convinced him of the authority of the church, I would not require
of him to abjure reason, but I would consig'n him to a higher and safer
guide, that church, herself the immaculate bride of Christ.

Now my friend's allusion to the Jew, brings a story to my mind,
and I cannot answer his queries better tlian by relating it. A Protes-
tant and a Catholic clergyman walking together, met a Jewish Rabbi,
" Well, Solomon," says the Protestant minister, "here we three are
met, and all of different religions, which of us is right!" "I'll tell
thee," says the Israelite, " If the Messiah has not come, I am right;
if he has come, the Catholic is right; but whether he has come or not,
you zie wrong." (A laugh.) — [Time expires.]

Half past 11 o'clock, A. M.
Ma. Campblll rises —

I shall respond to such matters as have a bearing on the question, as
soon as I have finished my exposition of the immoral tendency of the
Romish rule of faith.

That common cursing or damning, which offends out ears in all
the lanes and streets and highways, is authorized in the following
words :

" To curse insensible creatures, such as the wind, the rain, the years, the days, ,
fire, i:c., is no blasphemy, unless the one wlio curses, expressly connects them
in relation to Go<J, by savinp, for instance, cursed be thejireof God, the bread
of God," kc. Lrgor. Prax. Conf. N. 30.

Again : the Roman Catholic rule of faith sanctions a violation of the
third commandment.

" To curse the living is a mortal sin, when it is

formal; that is, (as Caittan explains itj) when he who curses intends and wishei
a erievous evil to befall the one he curses: but it is no mortal sin to curse tb«
living, when the curse pronounced is merely material; that is, when it is pro-
nounced without any evil intention. And why is it not a mortal sin? — because
he who curses a living man does not always intei\d to curse the soul, or to de-
spise its substance, in which, in an especial manner, the image of God shines
forth, but he curses the man without considering, or rrliecting about his soul,
and therefore, In cursing hlin he does not commit a grievous sin." Id. ib. 29.

License is given to violate, in some way or other, every precept of
the Decalogue. The Sabbath as a divine institution is thus set aside:

■ "As to the obligation of hearing

the HoLir Thi.ng," /'whirh i» the popith epithet for attending mass.) " let the
penitcol bf questioned in regard to whether he has omitted that Iloi.v THING?"
(to attend mass.) " As to servile works, let him be a?ked how long he hag
worked? and what kind of work he did / for, according to the doctors generally,
those who work two hours are excused from grievous sin; nay, other doctori
allow more, •Kpcciiilly if the labor be light, or if there be some more notable
reason. Let him also be asked, why he labored; whether it was the custom of
the place, or whether it was from necessity? liecause poverty ran excuse from
sin in working on the Sabbath; as the poor are generally exrusjrd, who, if they
do n'>t labor on the Sabbath, cannot sijp|)ort Itieniselves or their families; as they
also are excused who sew upon the Sabbath, because they cannot do it on other
days." Id. ib. i\. 32, 33. ( SynoptiH, pp. 52. 53.

" Mcrrhandisinjf, and the selling of goods at auction on the Sundays, is, on ac-
count of its beiriR the (general custom, altogether lawful." "Buying and selling
poods on llw. Lord's <l«y and on lestival days, are certainly forbidden by the cnnon-
ical law — but where the contrary custom prevails, it is excusable." Id. il). N. 293.
[Synopsis, p. 192.

— — ■ . . " He who performi any servile

work on the Lorrl's day, or on « Crstival day, bf him do penance three days on
bread and water. If any one brocik the fasts pmcribed by the church, let him
do penance on bread and water twenty days." — [.Synoptis, p. 115. ,

R 25

194 DEBATE ON THE

" The pope has the rie^ht and the power lo dtcrec, thai the sanclijlcation of the
Lord's day, shall only continue a few hours, and thai servile works may be
done oil that DAY." Id. ib. [S)iio[)si^, p. 188.

Custom, indeed, is fast becominfr, as St. Ligori teaches, an excuse
for any thing. The traditions of fathers, the canons of councils, the
decrees of popes — all wear away by the attrition of custom. Hence, in
a Roman Catholic population, pure and unmixed, there is a degree of
grossness of immorality, that Komanisls themselves could not endure
m Protestant countries. Even the morals of New Orleans could not
be endured in Cincinnati. There, it is custom to go to mass in the
morning, to muster at noon, and to go to the theatre in the evening on
the Lord's day. This is indeed, the custom, or something very like
it, in all Roman Catholic countries.

On stealing, in general the casuist directs as follows :

■ " In respect to the s-eveiith coninianclmeiit," says the saint,

" let the confessor ask the penitent if he has stolen any thing? and from whom,
whether it was from one person, or from difl'erent persons? whether he was alone,
or ivith others, and whether it was once or oftener? Because, if at each time
he stole a considerable amount, at each time lie sinned mortally. But on the
contrary, if at each time he stole a small amount, then he did not sin grievously,
unless the articles stolen came to a considerable amount; provided, however, that
in the beginning, he had not the intention of stealing to a large amount; bu*
when the amount already stolen has become considerable, although he did not
gin errievously, j'et he is bound under a grievous sin, to restitution; at least, as to
the last portions that he stole by which the amount became considerable. It is
to be observed, however, that a larger sum is required to constitute a heavy
amount in small thefts, and more is required if the things are stolen from differ-
ent persons, than if they were stolen from the same person; hence, it is said, that
in small thefts, which are made at dift'erent times, double the sum is required to
constitute what is to be considered a large amount. And if a considerable time
intervene between the thefts, for instance, two months, then the theft probably
does not amount to a grievous sin." Id. ib. N. 42.

On stealing to pay masses :

" If the person is unknown," continues the

saint, " from whom another has stolen, the penitent is obliged to restitution,
«ither by having masses said, or by bestowing alms on the poor, or by making
presents for pious places," by which the saint iiieans churches, nunneries, &c.;
"and if the person himself is poor, he can retain the amount stolen for the use
of his family. Hut if the person on whom the theft has been committed, is
known, to him the restitution is to be made; wherefore, it is wonderful, indeed,
that there are to be found so many confessors so ignorant, that, although they
know who the creditor is, enjoin upon the penitent, that, of the stolen goods,
which they ought to restore, they bestow alms, or have masses said. It is to be
observed, that if any one takes tne property of another, or retains it, under the
presumption, that if he were to ask it of the owner, he would willingly give it to
him, he ought not to be obliged to make restitution." Id. ib. JV. 4-4.

Thus we see theft can be made available to the behoof 6f priests in
saying masses — what they ought to say, and by the old canons, are
bound to say f^ratis.

On lying. There is a way of making lying no lying :

" Relatively to the ninth commandment, of popery the

eighth, the saint proceeds as follows: — " In regard to the reparation of the char-
acter of a person, if the fault of which he has been accused, is false, he who
defames him is bound to retract. But if the fault is true, the defamation that is
given ought to be looked upon in the most favorable light that it can be without
tying-: let the penitent sa)-, for example, [b}' way of excuse,] " I was deceived,
I erred." Others also admit that he can equivocate, by saying, /Zierf, since erery
sin is a lie, as the scripture says. Again, by an equivocation, he may say ' I only
maile this up in my head,' since all words which proceed from t ■ mind maybe
said to come from the head ; since the head is taken for the mind.'' Id. ib. N. 46.
[Synopsis, p. 56.

ROMAN CATHOLIC HELIOION. 195

The difference between insulting or dishonoring one's parents and
a spiritual father, bishop or pastor :

" He who curses his parents, let him do penance, on bread and water, forty
days. He who insults his parents, three years. If any one rebel against his
bishop, pastor, and father, Itt him do penance in a monastery, during his whole
life." — [Synopsis, p. 116.

Rules given to confessors :

"The saint continues: "The confessor

ou^ht to be extremely cautions how he hears the confession of women, and h«
should particularly bear in mind what is said in the holy congregation of bishops,
21, Jan. 1610. " Conjessors sliould nol, zviihout necessity, hear the confessions
of women after dusk, or before tuilight." In regard to the prudence of a con-
fessor, he ought, in general, rather to be rigid with 3'oung women in the confes-
sional than bland; neither ought he to allow them to come to him before confes-
sion to converse with him; much less should he allow them to kiss his hands. It
is also imprudent for the confessor to let liis eyes wander after his female peni-
tents, and to gaze upon them as they are retiring from confession. The confes-
sor should never receive presents fron\ his female penitents; and he should be
particularly careful not to visit them at their houses, except in case of severe ill-
ness; nor should he visit them then, unless he be sent for. In this case he should
be very cautious in what manner he hears their confessions; therefore the door
should be left open, and he should sit in a place where he can be seen by others,
and he should ne\er fix his eyes upon the face of his penitient; especially if they
be spiritual persons, in regard to whom, the danger of attraction is greater. The
venerable father Sertorius Capotus says, that the devil, in order to unite spiritu-
al persons together, always makes use of the pretext of virtue, that, being mu-
tually affected by these virtues, the passion may pass from their virtues over to
their persons. Hence, says St. Augustin, according to St. Thomas, confessors,
in hearing the confessions of spiritual women, ought to be brief and rigid ; neither
are they the lets to be guarded against on account of their being' holy; for the
more holy they are, the more they attract.'* And he adds, "that such persons
are not aware that the devil does not, at first, lance his poisoned arrows, but
those only which touch but lightly and thereby increase the ali'ection. Hence it
happens, that such persons do not conduct themselves as thov did at first, like
angels, but as if they were clothed with llesh. But, on the contrary, they mutu-
ally eye one another, and their minds are captivated with the soft and tender ex-
pressions which pass between them, and which still seem to them to proceed from
the first fervors of their devotion: hence they soon begin to long for each other's
company; and thus, he concludes, ' the spiritual devotion is converted into car-
nal. And, indeed, O, how many priests, who before were innocent, have, on ac-
ccont of these attractions, which began in the spirit, lost both CJod and their
soul!' •• Id. ib. N. 119.

The saint proceeds: "Moreover, the confessor ought not to be so fond of
hearing the confessions of women, as to be induced thereby to refuse to hear the
confessions of men. O, how wretched it is to sec so many confessors, who sjiend
the greater part of the day in hearing the confessions of certain religious wom-
tn, who arc called liizocaM," (a kintlof secular nuns,) " and when they after-
wards sec men or married women coming to confession to them, overwhtlmed
in the carev and troubles of life, and who can hardly spnre time to have their
homes, or business, how wretched it is to see these confessors dismiss them, say-
ing, ' / have tomethinf^ else to attend to: po to some other confessor" hence it
happens, that, not finding any other confessor to whon\ to confess, they live du-
ring months and years without the sacrnments, and without God!" Itl. ib. ]\.
120, [Synopsis, p. 7ft.

The Roinanist rtile of faith both in word and dred places the Virgin
Mary above Christ, in the religious homage of the chuich.

" Nuns," s!ivs till' naiiit, " ought to

have a special devotion towards St. Joseph, towards tluir gmirdiuii iingtl, and
their tutelary saint, and prinripnllv towards Si. Michm 1, the univerxnl patron of
all the faithful, but above all towards the mont hol^' N'irgin M»ry, who is called by
the church our life and our hopt ; for it is morally impossililc for a soul to ndvauce
much in perfection, without a particular niid a certain tender devotion towards
the most holy mother of God. ' Id. ib. N. 171.

^^»i

190 DEBATE ON THE

" Oitr life and our hope!" These words are in Protestant faith and
Bible propriety due to the Lord alone. — We cannot have two /ir^s; and
two hopes; and if Mary is our ]\i\'. and liopo, the Lord Jesus is not.
I befoie alluded to this person under the Roman name of a being call-
ed " the mother of God ;" which my opj)onent, as his manner is, served
up rhetorically, as if to produce a sympathy in favor of the superstitious
veneration of his party. He had not, however, a Roman Catholic
audience. I meant no disrespect to any person. I know that the more
intelligent Romanists discard the phrase as too gross and unauthorized.
There is no being in the universe, say they, who ought to be called
the mother of God. 1 had in my eye at the moment some wretched de-
signs in some Roman churches, a scandal to any christian people: a
sort of family group, in which there is the picture of a venerable old
man, said to represent the Faiher of the universe — next an old woman,
Ihe image of the Virgin Mary, and between them the picture of the
" A0/3/ child, Jesus." It has disgusted the more intelligent Romanists.
This family of divinities is much more in the style of the Pantheon, or
the poetry of Hesiod, than in the spirit, cr letter, or taste of Christianity.

While on this subject wc shall hear the moral theology of the church
on the use of images ; and, first, of the use of the virgin Mary's image :

" Lt.t him, who is in the habit of blaspheriiiiij;-, be advised to make the sign of
the cross [+] ten or fifteen tin)es a day, upon the ground with his tongue: and
thrice evtry morning, to say to the most blessed Virgin: ' O, my Lordess! give
me patience.' " Id. ib. N. 16. Synopsis, pp. 41, 45.

" Daily to visit the most holy sacrament, and t!ie image of the most holy Mary,
to beg of them the grace of perseverance." Id. ib. N. 14.

" my Lordess, give me patience!" Is not this idolatry ? To beg
of the {mage of the virgin the grace of perseverance ! ! ! No wonder
that these folks find it expedient to expunge the second commandment,
which says, "Thou shalt not worship an image" — no, "Thou shall
not bow down to it." But we shall hear the directions given concern-
ing the divine mother :

" The saint nowproceeds to give instruction to the pa-
rish priest how to lead his flock in the way of " salvation." " Let him be watch-
ful," says he, " to render his flock studious iii their devotion towards the Virgin
Mary, by declaring to thein how merciful this DIVINE MOTHER is in succor-
ing those who are devout to her." Id. c. x. IV. 216. "Therefore," continue.s
the saint, " let him intimate to them, that they daily recite, in common with their
faniilies, five decades of the Rosary; that they fast upon Saturday, and celebrate
Novenas upon the festivals of our Lordess (nostrae Domina?.) Lastly, and above
all, let the parish priest intimate to his flock, that they become accustomed often
to commend themselves to God, begging of him holy perseverance through the
merits of Jesus Christ and of Mary." Id. ib.

■ ■ » ■ "A certain image of the

Redeemer," so says the saint, " once upon a certain occasion, spoke to the ven-
erable brother Bernard of Corlion, who begged of the image to let him know
whether it wished him to learn to read? and the crucifix answered, ' What will
it avail thee to learn to read? What are books to thee? I am thy book, — this is
enough for thee." Id. ib. N. 220.

" iNow, that this is the very kind of reading that papists, or at least, those who
wish to be saints, are addicted to, let us turn to the great Bernard, and hear
what he says on the subject of such books. This saint, speaking of the Ronush
churches, exclaim.s, " There is so great, and such an astoidshing variety of dif-
ferent figures (images) presented on all sides, to the view, that the people prefer
reading upon the marble stones, than reading in books, and to spend the whole
day in wondering at these things, rather tlian in meditating upon the Law of
God." Bernard, Apol. p. 992. The same saint say?, "The bishops e.xcite the
devotion of n carnal minded people by corjioral ornaments, because they cannot
do it by spiritual." Id. ib. The saint does not mean tliat then- devotion is ex-

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 197

cited bj such shows, for just before, be saiJ, that these carnal minded people
" preferred spending- the whole day in wondering at these things, rather than
to be meditating on the law of God." He could have meant nothing else there-
fore, than that these splendid images were placed in the churches under the
PRETEN'CE of exciting dovotion, while the real object was, that the " foolish
people," (as he calls them,) " might bestow A GIFT." Id. ib. " O Crux ave,
spes unica!" '• Hail, O Cross, our only hope!" as exclaims the Romish church
in her " Breviarv."

, " Besides the little images of

Christ crucified, and of the Blessed Virgin," continues the saint, "which the
priest ought to be careful to place near the sick person, if it can be done, let
Dim also place before his eyes large images of the Mother of God, and the Re-
deemer, that the sick man, turn which way he will, may see them and commend
himself to them." Id. ib. JNT. 235.

So much for this lesson on the morality of the Romanist rule of
faith. On these matters we have not time to comment. For those
who think they need a comment, my worthy friend knows how to
manage the cause admirably ! His talents suit this exigency. He is
fluent in all the dogmas of Catholicism. To these he has devoted
many years and is a good judge of a certain class of human nature.
He knows the power of a laugh — an anecdote — a sigh — a compliment
— a picture — and, above all, he knows how much it weighs, with one
class, to say, with a triumphant air, "There's logic for you !" "what
an argument is that !" " I have proved it now !" " this is sound logic !"
"my friend Mr. C. feels it — it is the badness of his cause — my cause
is so good, so ancient, so venerable, so holy, so catholic!" &c. &c. I
say, in this sort of rhetoric, my learned opponent is an adept. It has
only one fault, it is too luscious sometimes, and he lays it on rather
thick, to stick long upon the audience. He is performing his part
nobly ! For myself, I regard all this as a grave, serious, scriptural and
rational discussion; I expect the good feelings of my audience, of
which I am already conscious, only by addressing myself to their un-
derstanding, and in the cool argumentative dignity of reason, fact, and
argument. But really, no man, in my knowledge, could sustain the
Romanist cause better than my learned and ingenious respondent; and
if he fails, Roman Catholicism in the West need not look for an abler
defendant.

My friend has admitted the seven methods of electing popes, but
says it is no matter how they are chosen. Americans! How would you
relish such doctrine in respect to your governors, judges, and presi-
dents 1 If some city or county in this state should elect a governor
for the whole state, would it make no diflTerence to you 1 Should your
chief magistrate be elected by a moh, by a parly, or by fierce, or brib-
er)', would you say it matters not — the virtue is in the oflice, no mailer
how the iiiciiiiibenl has come into itT !

The " Palladium" and " Baptist Banner" prove as much against
Protestantism, and for Catholicism, as they deal in ribaldry and per-
sonal abuse. If iIk se are arguments on wliicli the iiisliop relics, they
may be good autiioriiy for him; but, for myself, I need no such logic,
and my cause disdains such auxiliaries. He has great use for Unita-
rians also, and sometimes for Universalists, and even Quakers; but
in his last argument lie has mistaken the point. 'I'hese all ajipeal, in
their controversies, to the bible alone, just as the Janscnists and .Jesu-
its, the Dominicans, L'lrnardiles, Benedirtines, Fraiici.scans, &:c. &c.
while they have disliked and opposed one another, all acknowledge the
pope as supreme head of the church, the judge of controversies.

198 DBBATE ON THE

I am glad that he has at last admitted that the Jansenists in all essen-
tials are Catholics, and that they are repudiated only for a difference
of opinion. But where now are his objections against Du Pin 1 He
objected to him that he v.as a Jansenist, as if a difference in opinion
destroys the credibility of a witness — a principle that forever roots up
all history; for no one upon this principle is authentic, unless he be a
Roman Catholic ; nor then, unless a Jesuit, and this is equivalent to
saying, that no one is authentic unless he bear witness for him. — [Time
expired.]

Twelve o'clock, M.
Bishop Furcelt, rises —

I shall begin where my friend left off. I am charged with appeal-
ing to the feeling, and not to the reason of my hearers : " my rhetoric
is too luscious ; I lay it on too thick ; it won't stick," &c. &c. Well !
if my rhetoric is too luscious, that of my friend is too insipid ; if
mine is too thick, his is too thin. The fallacy it would cover, grins
through the flimsy gossamer : the weakest eyes can see it beneath
the veil. But I trust, I need not offer any vindication of my argu-
ments to this assembly. They are able, and, I thank God, willing,
too, to judge for themselves. They see that all, or the main force of
my friend consists of two renegade priests. Smith and Du Pin.
These are the two pillars of his logic. The published volume will
shew how superior and how honest are mine. In the oral debate, I ad-
dress the judgment, without neglecting the heart: and if I did pre-
sent my argument chiefly to the former, it would be because of an
observation of the celebrated John Randolph, in the Virginia conven-
tion for altering the constitution of the state. Speaking of my learn-
ed opponent, who was a delegate to that convention. Randolph said,
" He had politics in his heart and religion in his head." I cannot
vouch for the authenticity of the anecdote, I have just heard it. I hope
it was not founded in fact — [Mr. C. explained — Mr. Randolph had
never said so to him.] I proceed to more important matters. I did
not pretend to day that an informal election had any force. But that
any form on Avhich the entire church agreed, according to the majority
principle governing our own elections, was valid. It was Christ who
drafted the constitution of our church. I do not much like to see any
comparison instituted between it and the works of human legislators.
But if closely examined, it will be found to contain the excellencies,
while it excludes the defects of the most popular forms of civil go-
vernment. We have a perfect feature of the Republican Model, in
this, that with us, merit is the grand criterion of fitness for office. No
favoritism is allowed. No matter how humble the parentage or ob-
scure the kindred of the individual, virtue, talent and common sense
are sure, sooner, or later, to elevate him to any situation he may be
advised to accept. The church often selects her chief officers, as
God did David, " from the flocks of sheep," Ps. 7. viii. 70. from the
humblest walks of life. It is to this system, of giving merit a /ViiV
field, that we are indebted for the brightest ornaments in civil so-
ciety, a Curran, chosen for his intelligent blue eye, his wit and
archness, from among his playmates, when '■'■they that won, laughed,
and they that lost cheated ,-" as is very often the case.

To finish the conversion of the Jew, when I discontinued my ar-
gument, at half past eleven, on different principles. He knew there

RO>tA>" CATHOLIC RELIGION. 199

was a synagogue which the people were bound to consult, by the ex-
press command of God, and that it was no servility, it was blasphemy
against God and often visited with the heaviest penalties, even in this
life, to oppose its authority, or to contradict its teaching. He is
therefore prepared to hear of authority in religion — in fact, the syna-
gogue was a type of the church, its introduction — as the church is
the fulfilment and the consummation of the teaching and testimony
of the LAW. The Jew having had reason to question the truth of his
religion, for which, he remembers he had often read, a better was to
be substituted, and aware that the time marked so distinctly by the
prophets for the coming of the Messiah, has long ago past, he looks
for any religious society, that can illustrate the splendid prophecies of
Isaiah, respecting the catholicity, or universal diffusion and the dura-
tion of the church, from the time of the crucified one. He has only
to open his eyes to see that the Catholic church extends the dominion
of Christ, the limits of his spiritual kingdom from sea, to sea. Then
he looks at the other denominations. He finds none of the qualities of
such a kingdom, in them. They are not Catholic, they are not old,
they are not uniform. They are the contrary of all this. This is enough
for him. He uses his reason, thus far, alone, because he is not yet
baptized. Like the wise men, he follows the light of that star, until
he reaches Jerusalem — when its light fails him, there, as the star did
them, he asks, as they did, of authority, where the truth may be found,
and reason and revelation concur to shew it to him in the church.
He consigns himself to its guidance, he becomes a Catholic — and
reason tells him, every day, he has done right. He lives and he dies
without a doubt of the soundness of his decision, for this blessed
security is the distinctive character of the Catholic. All other creeds
based on the essential maxim of their fallibility, leaves the human
mind, in life and death, a prey to the most torturing anxiety. But I
have not done with this very instructive incident in the discussion.
If the Jew witnesses an occasional scandal in the church, he calls to
mind how Adam fell in Kden, and Aaron fell, at the foot of the smok-
ing Sinai, and Heli and his Sons, the priests, fell in Silo, and that
CnriRt said not, reject a religion, whose ministers have, personally,
transgressed, but on the contrary, that he said : " Upon the chair nf
Monea have sittrn the Scribes and the Pharisees, .ill things therefore,
w/iatsnerer the;/ shall say to ynu, observe ye and do ye : hut according to
their works, do yr not, for they say and do not. Thus truth in not
abandonc'i ; if th«' bad liver meets his meritrd doom.

I now come to all tiiat farrago of the /ienegadr Smithes translation
of Liguori. My friend says the (Jathoiie rule is immoral. He ap-
proached this topic with so m\ich reluctance, and with so many strug-
gles, that, conscious of his having nothing true to produce against
('alholir morality, 1 was going to say to liini, "spkak oi.r." Hut I didn't,
and now he has said all. Well, what does it amount to ? Why to
this, that the Catholic church is blackened, but beautiful (Nigra num,
Bed formosa, as the spouse saj's in llu* canticle). She is, though
misrppr<s.iitfd, f^ir, though slandered, pure. If a Catholic were
always what liis rhurch teaolies, and the sacraments site is appointed
by Christ to minister, give him grace, to be, he would be an orna-
ment to human nature, as well as to his faith. Hut " the Catholic
rule is immoral and dispenses with the law of (iod." No; it enfor-
ces dreadful penalties here and eternal torments hereafter, for a viola-

200 DEBATE ON THE

tion of the law. If her ministers make any mitigation of her strict
code of morals in consequenco of the arduous duties, weak health,
or other circumstances of Iht children, she loaches them, that if the
alleged motives of such mitigation do not, indeed, exist, it is not
" a faithful dispensation, but a cruel dissipation" of the heavenly or-
dinances; that the priest has no power but what he derives from God,
and that God will infallibly inllicl all the rigors of his vengeance for
its abuse, as well on tlio priest, as on the people. If all the priests
and bishops in the world were to pronounce the words of absolution
over a sinner, in whose heart God did not see true sorrow for his fault,
with a sincere resolution to sin no more, the absolution would be null
and void, and the horrid crime of sacrilege superadded to the previous
guilt of the transgressor. The hope of the hypocrite shall perish,
says the scripture. We have a maxim, which must make the pope
and bishops and priests, as well as the laity tremble, when we
approach the dread tribunal of penance. Itjs this: "a good confes-
sion is the key of Heaven, a bad one is the key of Hell." How ad-
mirable are the lessons read today from Liguori — and they were faith-
fully rendered for a sinister motive — and how well does the Catholic
church describe the perils and the obligations of their sacred office to
her ministers ! Hence it is that we assume our religious robes and hear
confessions in the open church, where are also our confessionals,
under the eyes of all. If Liguori were the immoral man that Smith
would make him, would he have given such lessons to the clergy
and pointed out so impressively the dangerous consequences of a single
indiscretion, or the slightest familiarity on the occasions to which he
was adverting ? " I made a covenant with my eyes, says Job, xxxi. 1,
that I would not so much as think of a virgin ; for what part should
God from above have in me, and what inheritance the Almighty from
on high ]" Liguori says : " He that does any servile work on the
Lord's day, let him do penance, three days, on bread and water." To
what does my friend object in this, on the score of immorality ] Is
it the enforcing of the observance of the sabbath 1 Surely that is not
immoral. Is it to the severity of the penalty ■? But did not God ordain
the pain of death against the man who gathered a few sticks on the
sabbath ] Liguori allows work on the sabbath, on certain occasions. —
So do we. — Doctors work on the sabbath, without sin. So do printers,
though I think not always, especially when they publish pious lies
against the Catholics. "Which of you, says Christ, whose ox, or his
ass, falls into a pit, will not quickly draw him out, on the sabbath.
If a house is on fire on the sabbath, will not the Presbyterian bell
ring and the citizens haul out the hoso and engines ? Will we not
save the harvest, on a Sunday T New Orleans' profanity on the sab-
bath ! Why, they are not all Catholics, many of them are infidels and
Protestants, who there break the sabbath — and their sin, though bad
enough, is not so bad as theirs, who, as it has been done elsewhere,
meet in gangs for forgeries and other such frauds, on the sabbath.
" Custom is fast becoming an excuse for every thing." — JVo where does
Liguori say this. I call for the original. Let Mr. C. produce his
proof, if he can. If he cannot, what will this community think of him ?
" The Romanist rule of faith places the Virgin Mary above Christ."
It does no such a thing. It says " cursed be every Goddess worship-
er," while it renders '■'■honor to whom honor.'''' We know and pro-
fess that the mother has no power but what she derives from the Son.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 201

»»

To Him, we say : " have mercy on us ;" to her " pray for us." Mr
C. says, " No being in the universe should be called mother of God'
Was not Christ God 1 And does not the gospel call Mary, his mo-
ther ? Did not one hundred and fifty eight bishops so call her, in the
year 431, in the council of Ephesusi Who rs the intelligent CathO'
iic, as mv opponent states, who is ashamed of what the gospel and
the church sanction ? I ask who is he 1 Let us have his name.
The streets of Ephesus rung with loud applause when the decision of
the council was announced, vindicating the name and dignity of the
mother of God, and the words Mack eurixjc were echoed from mouth to
mouth, mingled with the most'joyful and exulting cries of the populace,
to the consternation of Neslorianism. 'Son! behold thy mother!' were a-
mong the last words spoken by the expiring Savior on the cross. Will my
opponent call them ill timed at that hour, when all was consummated !

" The Catholic rule makes a distinction between mortal and venial
sms." And why should it not 1 Does not the bible, which propor-
tions the penalty to the offence, does not the civil law, which punish-
es not every offence alike, does not common sense point out the dis-
tinction? Is it as great a sin for a child to tell a little, ^vhite lie to
excuse itself, as for a son to whet the razor and cut his father's throat 1
I am sensible that a lie is never innocent. Nor do I excuse it under
any circumstances — but it is of various shades of guilt, according to
the circumstances when it is uttered. I know of national legislatures
which give a bribe of forty pounds per annum to an apostate priest, to
tempt him by filthy lucre to act against his conscience — ana which
not so many years ago, encouraged a son to turn Protestant, by em-
powering him to take his father^ estate and turn both his aged pa-
rents and with them his brot^iers and sisters, if they persisted in be-
ing Catholics, out of doors, and it would be easy for me to prove that
this law was passed by many Protestant ministers, and that it wcu nol
over scrupulous in point cf morality in papistical distinction between
moral and venial sins ; but let hs have more of Smith's translation of
Liguori, he says ' let stolen money be paid for masses 1 No ; he say*
first, let the rightful owner he hunted out by the penitent thief, and
to him let the restitution be made. If he can be no longer found, let
the money be given for masses, for his spiritual benefit, or distributed,
for his sake, in alms to the poor, and what belter use could be madfl
of it — what better counsel given 1

Anothrr proof of t'atholic immorality in that we are bound to go
oner a year to confession ! Where the immorality of this is, I cannot
conceive. le it not good to be obliged to examine, at least, once a
year, if not more frequently, the state of our consciences and to con-
fess ourselvps sinnnrs 1 Is not this an admirable institution for the
acquiring of the best kind of knowledge, th<" knowledge of oneselfl
Is it not wortliy of (iod ? Is it not God himself that instituted itT
Did he not leave to liis church, the power of binding and loosing from
sin, when he said to his apostles, after having niysteriously breathed
upon th'-m and given thetn the M<dy (Jhosl, " Whose sins y<>u shall
forgive, they an; forgiven, and whose sins you sliali retain, thi-y are
retained : Whatever you shall bind on earth, it shall he hf)un(l in
Heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth, it shall br; loos^td in
Heaven." .John xx. '■2-Z, 2.'{. And my friend quoted St. Thomas
Aquin, and St. Augustin, as well as Liguori, for the holy rules the
pnest must observe, in hearing confesflions. Tiiat establishes the im-

202 DEBATE O^ THH

portant fact, that in the last century, and in the fourteenth, and as fat
back as the fifth age, the practice of confession existed, as it does at
the present day. In every age from the time of Christ it has been
practised, and experience has proved it the most effectual restraint
that religion has ever imposed upon vice, on passion, and on human
frailty. Who can tell what crimes it has arrested 1 What virtue it has
preserved and purified 1 What restitutions, of reputation and of for-
tune it has caused to be made T How many sinners it has stopt in the
down-hill path to destmction t Voltaire and Chilling^vorth and a hun-
dred others, not Catholics, have pronounced the most splendid eulo-
gies on confession. These disinterested witnesses will furnish you
ample proof on this point. But my friend before he closed, uttered
one word, while he read from the catechism of the council of Trent
"^xt'ng a price, ^c." for the forgiveness of sin. Now in the name of
truth, in the name of this community, I ask him for the proof, for I
pronounce it absolutely false.

Mr. C. explained that he did not say it was done by the council of
Trent.

He says that we have exalted the confessional to an equality with
the throne of grace. Well might it be the footstool of that throne^
if its pure principles were carried out. On the throne, or in the con-
fessional, it is the same God that pardons the penitent sinner. — [Time
expired.]

Three o'clock P. M.

Mr. Campbell rises —

The gentleman challenged me this morning upon an important
point, viz. that Protestants cannot make an act of faith — that is, be

rerfectly certain in their beliefofthe holy scriptures, or of Jesus Christ,
accept the challenge. It now only remains for him to appoint the
time when, and the place where, and I will meet him on that point.
But that is not the question for to-day. Let him not think to take me
off, by raising incidental and foreign questions. They may remove
the ennui of the audience for a while ; but his time would have been
better spent in answering my allegations on the great question. 1
have heard not one answer, as yet, to the question, " What gives gen-
eral councils their infallibility V and various other points of great
moment to his cause : to which he had better attend, than to propose
new debates. I will remind him of another question which he had
better solve. ' Hmo can a thousand fallibks make one infallible?'' Do
they, by meeting together, become infallible'? or, by an ecclesiastic
combination, give out infallibility? 'IMiis would have been more in-
structive than much of what the gentleman has given us. He obser-
ved at one time that the Jansenists were a Roman Catholic sect. But
again, he says, that they are not Roman Catholics at all ! To pre-
serve the union of the church, their plan is a very easy one. When
persons dissent, cut them off. While Jansenists agree with the
majority of the church, call them good Catholics : when they dissent,
as they do in some very cardinal matters, call them heretics in the
bosom of the church : but not of it. But the gentleman's explana-
tion of the council of Trent will never satisfy Protestants. The coun-
cil of Trent at one session, had forty-eight bishops, forty-five of
whom were very ordinary men. They decided that the Apocrypha
and the Vulgate were authentic; that the Latin Vulgate is the true and

B03IAN CATHOUC &EUOION. 203

only authentic copy, more authentic than the Greek original. TTiese
matters had often been discussed before amongst Romanists ; but were
finally adjudicated by the council of Trent. The modern doctrine of
Catholics is, that a simple majority is infallible. "That the opm-
ions adopted by the majority of the bishops are for an infallible rule
of faith.'''' So says the worthy bishop of Strasburg; but the proof is
another matter. Now the present doctrine is, that twenty-five bish-
ops, being the majority of forty-eight, are infallible. The opinion of a
majority of a council, then, is the essence of infallibility. Father
Paul, who writes the history of the council of Trent, a good Catholic,
truly ! says, ' beardless youths were sent to that council by the pope
to obtain majorities for his measures — That the pope sen^ packed ju-
ries, who in every question were expected to support his measures.'
So provoked was the good Catholic with the aberrations of Trent, that
he solemnly asserts that the bishops o^ Trent were "a pack of incar-
nate demons." I think I quote his yery words. He was complaining
that the pope had hired and sent oft' young men from every part of
the empire to vote as he pleased to dictate. So much for the infalli-
bility of oecumenical councils.

My friend has pronounced glowing encomiums upon the pure vir-
ginity of the Roman priesthood, and has extolled the purity of celib-
acy, as essential to perfect holiness. That these priests have not been
such immaculate purities, half the decrees of these very councils attest.
Half their legislation is i<bout the specks and blemishes of this vir-
gin priesthood, as if they assembled for the purpose of hiding their
shame. The bishop quoted Rev. xiv. 4. and was not ashamed before
this audience to apply it to marriage. I blushed for our audience,
and could not but be shocked with the freedom of attack upon the or-
dinance of God. Marriage is the oldest and most venerable institu-
tion in the history of man. God himself instituted and celebrated it,
on the flowery banks of Eden in the state of primeval innocence and
bliss. It was then and there said ; " It is not i^oadfor man to be alone.^^
I believe with Paul that marriage is honorable in all. And as for pu-
rity ; earth knows no purer, no holier state than that of holy wedlock.
And could I tfll — or dare 1 tell before this assembly, but lialf that I
have learned of that virgin slate of wliich my friend h;is spoken with
such warmth ; he would be slow to learn who could not perceive,
that "forbidding to marry," one of Paul's attributes of tlie grand
apostacy, has been the fcma el principium, the fountain of untold pol-
lutions in the hierarchy of Rome. In times nf persecution, and of
great distress, it may, indeed, he prudent, as Paul advised on such oc-
casions, to refrain from marriage, and for some great and laudable
purpose, it may be convenient, to prefer a single state ; but that youth,
male or female, who for the sake of greater purity prefers celibacy,
has yet to learn tho very first principles of both religion and morality;
and \n as far out of the tract of truth and reason, as he that would cut
off his own hands to prevent him from plunder.

It irt essential, in my opinion, that the bisltop be a married man.
Indeed, the Holy Spirit hy Paul has decreed, that he should he the
husband of one wife. As my opponent is a barhelor, I ought, per-
haps to a«k liis pardon. Did he, indeed, possess all tlio other quai-

I lonir

ifications, I should withhold my vote to his becoming a bishop so
as he continued a "nV^in." To preside over a christian coiig
tion, ho should have all a christian's feelings and experience.

204

DEBATE ON THE

should know experimentally the domestic affections and relations.
He should study human nature in the bosom of his family. There is
a class of feelings, which no gentleman, of single life, can compre-
hend ; or in which he can sympathise : and these are essential to that
intimacy with all classes, sexes and duties, which his relations to the
church often impose on him. If he docs not know how to rule a sin-
gle family, and to enter into all its customs and feelings with practi-
cal skill, how can he take care of the church of God ? So argues
Paul : and so must I reason and judge.

Next to his remarks against marriage, as necessarily less pure than
celibacy; I was sorry to hear the gentleman defending " white lies,"
and " little sins." When I think of the nature of sin, and the holy
and immutable laws of God, against whom it is committed, I see no
difference between one sin and another. There may be great and lit-
tle sins as to their temporal relations and consequences : but when HE
against whom every sin is committed, and that divine and holy law,
which is violated in the least offence, is considered ; we must say with
the apostle James, " He that offendoth in one point is guilty of all."
It may be the veriest peccadillo on earth : l)ut in Heaven's account,
one sin would ruin a world, as it has done, for he that keeps the whole
law and yet offends in the least point, is guilty of all. He that said,
not a jot or tittle of his law shall fall to the ground — He that magni-
fied his law and made it honorable, will Suffer no person to add to—
to substract from, to change or to violate a single point with impunity.

I wish the gentleman would come up to the point and defend his
Catholic rule, that I might fully deliver myself on this subject; but 1
have as yet given a very few instances of the impurities and immoral-
ities of Itiis rule of faith. But from the specimen given, I would ask,
does it not teach the worship of creatures and the images of creatures-
does it not countenance idolatry 1 Does it not command the invo-
cation of the spirits of dead men and women 1 Are not multi-
tudes of saints invoked, of whose abode in heaven there is no witness
on earth 1 Does it not pay religious homage to beings, who by nature
are not God 1 Does it not blaspheme the name of God, and his apos-
tles and prophets, who ate in heaven? And, may I not add- — does it
not annul the laws of God, and by a system of unparalleled casuistry
set aside every moral obligation ■? '

The gentleman represented confession as a christian duty. So it is ;
but not auricular confession ; not confession to a priest. Leo I. opened the
flood-gates of impurity by ordering and substituting private confession
to a priest; for public confession before the whole congregation. The
last entrenchment against the rapid declensions of public morals in the
fifth centpry, was broken down by their dispensing with public for
secret confession. All sensible historians, or, rather, commentators
on historic facts, agree that there was no greater check to flagitious
offences than bringing the defaulter before the whole congregation ; and
this being commuted into auricular confession, inundated the church
with unparalleled impurities and immoralities. " Confess your faults
one to another," is not, whisper your faults into the ears of your priest !
Why do not the priests, on this their proof, confess their faults to the
people ? — confess to one another! But this authorizes no man, no woman,
to degrade themselves by falling upon their knees before an old or young
bachelor, and telling to him ali their impure and sinful thoughts, words

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 205

and actions. And ought he then to say, as if the sin were committed
against him, " I absolve thee V This is the climax of folly on the
part of the penitent, and of impiety on the part of the priest !

There is no ear but God's to which our errors and our faults ought
to be confessed. The secrets of all hearts are his ; and he has gra-
ciously assured us that he will hear the acknowledgment and peniten-
tial confessions of all who approach him through the one Mediator. Is
there more condescension or mercy in a Roman priest than in God ?
No, my friends, there is no ear more ready to hear than his ; and he
only can forgive. To suppose the contrary, mistakes wholly the chris-
tian institution, and argues consummate ignorance of God. It is wholly
incompatible with the genius of the religion, and repugnant to both the
law and gospel. And with what propriety, modesty, piety, males and
females, old and young, should mutter iheir sins and secrets into the
ears of any bachelor, priest, or confessor, as if his ears were a common
sewer — or conduit to carry down to oblivion the impurities of mortals,
I cannot even conjecture, unless to give them power over the penitents.
I opine that I am yet in the pale of logic, though I am upon a very un-
pleasant theme.

The gentleman objects to some of my reasonings. He says that the
church has fixed no tariff of sins ! Does he wish me to tell the whole
story 1 Is not the principle clearly asserted in the penances already
read 1 Why fix a penance of three days for violating the sabbath, and
twenty days for breaking a human fasi ? For insulting his parents ho
must do penance for three years; for rebelling against his bishop he
must do penance all his life ! He who kills a common man does
penance three years ; but he who kills a priest must do penance
twelve years !

The gentleman says there is no possibility of efToctual pardon from
a priest, unless contrition be sincere. A word frora Ligori here :

" In order to receive the facrament of penance rii^htly, perlect contrition in
the penitent is not required, but it is sufTicient if lie liuve attrition." — Id. ib. N.
440. The saint proves tliis in liis exposition of the 4th chapter of the 14th ses-
sion of the coumil of Trent: — Id. ib. [.Synopsis, p. 105.

Will the gentleman explain what he means by attrition? I have,
perhaps, said enough on this topic to prepare the way for my speech
to-morrow morning on the "sea serpent!" Hut whiit-; on the whole
premises of the rule of faith, and the mutability, (aljibility, and tariffs
of the Romanist sect, 1 beg to read, in the words of the most illustrious
of the champions of Protestantism — 'I'he great Chillingworth :

" Know then, sir, that wlien I say the religion of FrotesUnils is in prudence to
be preferred before yours; as on the one side 1 do not understand hy joiir
reli{;ion the doctrine of Jiellarmine or liaronius, or any otiier private man
amonp^sl you, nor the doctrine ot Ihe Sorbonne or o( the Jcsitils, or of the Domi-
nicans, or of any other particular ctunpany among you; tint that wherein you
all a(;ree, or profess to a^rer, lite doctrine nf llic council of '/Vent: So accor-
dingly on the other nidc, l)y the rc/l'e-ion of I'rott^stants, I do not understand the
doctrine of I^iilher, or C'ulvin, or JMclancDion, not the confeseion of ^^p^tsla or
Oenr.vn, nor the cnlrchism of lleidelberj^, nor the Drticles of the cluircli of
£n^/fin'/, no. nor (lie harmony of I'roteslant confessions; but that wlienin tliey
all nfjree, und which they all subscribe with a greater harmony, oi u perfect rule
of their faith and actiona, that is the liini.K.

"The KlHI.r, I say the Hini.K only in the reli);ion of Protestants, whatsoever
else they believe besides it: And the plain, irrefragable, and indubilable conse-
quences of it well may they hold as matter of cjpinion; but as matter of fnith
and religion, neither can they with coherence to their own grounds believe it
themselves, nor require the belief of it of othtn. without ruoit birh and ichii-

206 DEBATE ON THE

inatical presumption. I, for my part, after a lonp, and (as I verily believe and
hope) impartial search of the iiite way to eteriuil happiness, do profess plainly
that I cannot find any rest for the sole of my foot, but upon this rock only.

" I see plainly, and with mine own eyes, that there are popes against popeg,
councils against councils, sonic fathers against others, the saine fathers against
themselves, a consent of fathers of one age against a consent of fathers of another
age, the church of one age against the church of another age: Traditive inter-
pretations of scripture are pretended, but there are few or none to be found:
No tradition but only of scripture ran derive itself from the fountain, but may
be plainly proved to be brought in, in such an age after Christ, or that such an
age it was not in. In a word, there is no sutlicient certainly but of scripture
only, for any considering man to build upon. This, therefore, and this only 1
have reason to believe: This I will profess, according to this I will live, and for
this if there be occasion I will not only willingly, but even gladly, lose my life,
though I should be sorry that citristians should take it from me.

" Propose me any thing out of this book, and require whether I believe or no,
and seem it never so incomprehensible to human reason, 1 will subscribe it with
hand and heart, as knowing no demonstration can be stronger than this, " God hath
Baid so, therefore it is true." In other things, I will take no man's liberty of judg-
ing from him; neither shall any man take mine from me. I will think no man
the worse man, nor the worse christian, I will love no man the less for differing
in opinion from me. And what measure I mete to others, I expect from them
again. I am fully assured that God does not, and therefore men ought not to
require any more of any man than this, to believe the scripture to be God'i
word, to endeavor to find the true sense of it, and to live according to it." —
[Time expired.]

Half past 3 o'clock, P. M.
Bishop Purcell rises —

I am pursuing my opponent, to-day, though various assertions, and
vain endeavors to establish against the Catholic church, the charge of
immorality. I said, that the grace of penance was, in our estimation,
so powerful, that there is no sin which it may not efface by the mercy
of God. This, Mr. C. says, is a proof of our immorality ! If it bo
immoral to lift a heart-broken penitent from the depths of despair, and
tell him there is hope in God, my friend is right. Catholics believe
that there is no sin which God cannot forgive to sorrowing man. One
drop of the infinitely precious blood which was shed for us on Calvary,
is more than sufficient to cancel the iniquities of a thousand worlds :
"If your sins be as scarlet, saith the Lord, they shall be made as
while as snow." (Is. i. 18.) " Come to me, all you that labor and
are burdened," says Christ, " and I will refresh you." (Matt. xi. 28,)
" But," we are told, "the scripture speaks of an irremissible sin, a sin
against the Holy Ghost." That sin, my friends, is indeed a deadly
one. That sin is, obstinately resisting the known truth, and final im-
penitence, the almost inevitable consequence of suffering ourselves to
be blinded by religious prejudice. This sin is more common than
many (alas ! too many) are willing to believe. They are in that way
of which the scripture says : " // seemetk to a man right ; but the ends
thereof lead to death.'" (Prov. xvi. 28.) To such Christ solemnly de-
clares that " they shall, call upon him, and he will not hear ; and they
shall die in their sin." Such persons as these, find it easier to accuse
our church of a few riots in Rome, or elsewhere, which all the power
of religion could not have prevented, (and the only wonder is that they
did not occur more frequently,) than to study her divine evidences, be-
lieve the mysterious truths she proposes, and practise the holy lessons
she enjoins. But I must hasten to answer the multitude of heteroge-
neous questions which my friend has proposed.

ROLA.X CATHOLIC RELIGION. 207

" What gives general councils their infallibility ]" The power and
omniscience of God : the Holy Ghost abiding with the church, all
days, until the consummation of the world. — " Can a thousand falli-
blea make one infallible 1" Yes; and, according to your own show-
ing, every one of twelve fallibles made an infallible; for you allowed
that the twelve apostles were, individually, and of course, collectively,
infallible. And, if you need more homely illustrations, does it follow,
that because one thread cannot keep a seventy-four to her moorings,
that a cable consisting of a thousand strong threads cannot do so 1
What one cannot do, many can, humanly speaking: how much more
60 when there is a divine promise : " Behold I am with you all days ;
the gates of hell shall not prevail aeraimt you.'" (Mark xvi. 18.) I never
said the Jansenists were Roman Catholics. I objected to Du Pin from
the very commencement of this controversy, on the ground of his be-
ing a Jansenist. The Jansenists have been condemned by the popes.
Hence, they lose no opportunity of insulting them, exaggerating
their faults and suppressing their virtues. My friend, then, followed
a notoriously treacherous guide, when he trusted himself, and his
cargo of nottoris about the popes, to such a helmsman as Du Pin. But,
bad as the Jansenists are, they are too learned in church history and
in the scriptures, to become members of any Protestant sect. Their
magnificent work. The Perpetuity of the Catholic Faith, is, probably,
the most learned production recorded in the annals of religious contro-
Tersy. I should be happy to lend it to any gentleman of this assem-
bly, and thereby convince him how venerable are the doctrines, which
want of knowledge induces some persons to assail. The opinions of
all the bishops in the world, are no article of faiih. Articles of* faith
are defined, and they arc no longer opinions. " Siquis dixerit;" " If
any say :" in this manner commence the canons of doctrine to define
articles of faith ; and they end by the words, " Anathema sit ;" in imi-
tation of St. Paul, who said : "Were I, or an angel from heaven, to
E reach to you any other gospel than what has been preached, let him
e anathema." This formula always marks the definitions of Catho-
lic faith, among the a^ts of general counriis. Hut it will make even
the smatterers in theology, the sciolists, I could have almost said, the
8chool-boys of Kiirope, laugh, to see the gentleman gravely quote Fra
Paolo, or Father Paul, the sycophant of the senate of Venice, the ex-
communicated monk, or, to say all in two words, the ^'^ Calvinislic
heretic,'''' as he is justly called by the Protestant i)ishop, Burnet, as
his authority for the proceedings of the bishojis in the council of Trent.
*' He hid," says Bossuet, "the spirit of Luther under the frock of a
monk." Henry IV. of France detected his hypocrisy, and denounced
him tt) the senate of Venice ; and Pallavicini convicted him of three
hundred and sixty errors in his j)retcii(lc<i history of the council of
Trent. I have got I'aolo Sarpis' hook in Fnglish, and will prove on
him some, at h'ast, of thcst; errors, if he is (|uoteil again, with his worthy
compeers, Striith and Du Pin! Now the truth is, that there were upwards
of two hundred and fifty bisho|)s, or prelates, of different nations,
nearly two huiidrcri of iIk; most learned tiicologians, and the ambassa-
dors of many ''atludir princes, at t!iis council. It was held in Trent, a
free city, and the utnu)si liberty was allowc:d in the disrussion of the (lif-
erent questions, previously to the definitions of faith. The council met
to decide anew, what had been always, every where, and by all believed

208 DEBATE ON THE

in the Catholic church ; and the canon of scripture which it defined, was
no other than what had been settled in all the previous councils for
upwards of a thousand years; and this the whole Catholic world per-
fectly understood. What, now, becomes of the gentleman's 48 by 25?
Why does he exaggerate in figures when he talks against Catholics,
andjigurc in miniature when he speaks for them 1 Those beardless
youths he speaks of, had, I presume from Italian faces generally, as
much of that excrescence as other animals distinguished by a late
senator. My friend was quite tender to-day, indeed excessively elo-
quent, on the subject of marriage. Had he confined himself to its just
praise, as the primeval institution of God, on the flowery banks of
Eden, without outraging the express declarations of Christ, and the
inspiration of his Holy Spirit, in the new law, I would have repeated
what I have already said, in acknowledgment of the purity and sanc-
tity of the nuptial union. But, I must borrow his own words, to say,
with still more truth, that " I blushed for our audience, and was
shocked by the freedom of his attack upon the ordinance of God."
The gentleman may talk until the end of the year, and I would meet
him at every pause with the words of Christ, Matt. xix. 12 ; or, if
these are not plain enough to the " sensual man who thinkeih this
virtue foolishness," with those of St. Paul, (1 Cor. vii.) "/ would
that all men were even as myself. ^^ " / say to the tmmarried and the
widows, it is good for them if they so continue, even as /." (ver. 8.) " He
thai is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he
may please his wife ,• and he is divided. He that is without a wife, is
solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God.
(verses 32, 33.) " Jlrt thou loosed from a wife, seek not a wife . . . if
a virgin marry, she hath not sinned .• nevertheless, such shall have tribu-
lation of the flesh. But I spare you." (ver. 28.) Can holy writ more
unequivocally reprobate all the gentleman's romancing about wedlock,
to the proscription of that pure devotedness to the holy offices of the
ministry, of which Jesus Christ, St. John, and St. Paul, have left ua
the brightest examples in their own persons 1 Mr. C. said : " Dared I
to tell, before this assembly, but half that 1 have learned of that virgin
priesthood :" and I, my friends, dared I tell, before this assembly, but
half that I have learned, from old Protestant residenters of this city,
of that married priesthood, in Elyria, on Lake Erie, and in towns in
the interior of this state, without casting the net over heads nearer
home, I would fill your souls with tenfold horror ! I would advise
my friend to tread lightly on these ashes. Holy as marriage is, and
holy as 1 confess it to be, St. Paul advises married people to forego,
at certain times, the privileges of that state, to give themselves to prayer.
(ver. 5.) The same is commanded in the prophet Joel, xi. 16.
The high-priest was forbidden, in Leviticus, to neglect the foregoing
injunctions, when he ministered unto the Lord ; as, also, to take a
widow to wife, but only a virgin. Now, a widow, according to my
friend's notion, would have a better title than a virgin to have a high-
priest for her husband, inasmuch as she had shown her reverence for
the institution of marriage, by a previous union. And, now, let me
ask again, why did my opponent labor so hard to give his Protestant
hearers, the Paulicians for their ancestors, when it is well known,
that these heretics condemned marriage? This, the Catholic church
has not done. But, when a vow is made to God, she says, with St.

R03IAM CATHOLIC RELIGIOIf. 209

Paul, (1 Tim. v. 12.) " it is damnable, in either man or woman, to
break it." Has my opponent read all these texts 1 Does he not re-
member to have read in history, the honor in which the liprht of reason
taught all {he naliona of the ecrlh to hold virginity, and the privileges
to which it was every where entitled ] Has he read of scandalous
damages recovered in courts, in England, by Reverends, who were
mocked to scorn the following Sunday, when they went into the pul-
pit to preach 1 Has he read of other reverends, who have had to pay
damages for the slanderous reports, put in circulation by their fair
companions in weal and woe? Is this the tribulation according to the
flesh, of which St. Paul speaks? "The decrees of councils attest that
priests have not been such immaculate purities." Well ; and what
do these records of the civil courts of England, and the domestic an-
nals of broken hearts and blighted honor, attest? As well might the
gentleman charge marriage with the shocking excesses, which it did
not prevent in David and Solomon, as the law of celibacy with the
specks and blemishes of the Catholic priesthood.

In every religion there will be bad men, and by them every virtue
tvill be outraged, but must w^e on this account blame virtue and ex-
punge it; must wc, like Moses descending from Sinai, break the
tables of the law, because of a stiff-necked and a revolted people ; or,
on the contrary, hold up that law before them in terror, remind them
of their duly, and reclaim them, by exhibitions of divine justice and
mercy, to virtue? " It is essential for a bishop to be a married man."
And the gentleman's vote would be withheld from me, because I ana
a bachelor. Why, sir, St. Paul does not mean that a bishop should be
a man of one wife, but that he should have had but one — otherwise, as
he was himself unmarried, he would have acted against his own rules.
Now I claim to be as clear-sighted, and as well read in the bible, as
my friend, and I maintain it is essential a bishop should not be a mar-
ried man; for he will not then be afraid to bring home from the bed of
death the small-pox, the cholera, or the plague, to his wife and chil-
dren ; he will not be prevented by the engrossing care of a family
from visiting tlie " widow and tlie orphan;' he will have more money
to spare for the wants of the poor. "To preside over a christian con-
gregation," says Mr. Campbell, "a bishop should know experimen-
tally the domestic affections and relations; he should study human
nature in the bosom of his family; there is a class of feelings which
no gentleman of single life can comprehend, or in which he can sym-
pathise, and Ihcae are rgnential to that intimacy (what intimacy !) with
all classes, sexes and du'ies, ml/,ich his n lationa to the church often im-
pose upon him." What does all this mean? I am sincerely shocked
at this freedom. But if it mean any thing that I should answer, it
■would mean, that a bishop should be a bachelor to sympathise with a
numerous class of christians, viz. old maids; he should have a scold'
tn/j wife to be able to nympathise with a scolded husband i a sickly
wife, an ugly wife, a drinking wife, an arbitrary wife, an ignorant,
stupid wife, to know cjpcrirneutalh/ what liii.sbaiids suffer in all these
domestic relations; \\v. should, and he should iwl, have children. Can
there be any thing more superlatively ridiculous! As well might you
exact of the physician, that he should have had all the diseases you
may call upon him to cure A bishop ran study his own heart, and
as Cicero says, "Timeo hominem unius libri;" if he will not learn
s2 27

210 DJCBATE oy TUB

human nature there, he will not learn it any where. I have much more
to say on this subject, which queen Elizabeth, Oxford college, (Eng-
land,) regulations to the " fellows," and Dr. Miller, of Princeton,
furnished me ; but whether I resume this unpleasant task or not, de-
pends on my learned opponent. I have a large family to provide for,
and I try at least to take care of it. Fifty little orphans, in want of
an asylum, look to me for bread ! and as Christ and St. Paul have
taught mo to live, while I have ears to hear, and a heart to commiser-
ate the hard lotofthe fatherless and motherless, and claims to present
in their name to a generous public, so, must I reason and judge, I should
continue to live. These little beneficiaries gather around me when I
visit them, and they call me by the endearing name of father! and
their appealing looks, their grateful smiles, their wants and artless-
ness and joy excite in me emotions which a virtuous parent well
might share, and an unfeeling one, who neglects or abuses his chil-
dren, well might envy ! I invite my friend to visit these little inter-
esting orphans, and see how an old bachelor gets along among them.
Did I really defend white lies'? I think not. "One sin, in the
sight of heaven is as great as another." This I deny. This doctrina
saps the fovmdation of sound morals ; it leaves us no energy for virtu
ous effort; it writes the mysterious " Mane, Tecel, Phares," on thft
wall, for the first and least offence. ; it has no warrant in scripture. God
often speaks of nations filling up the measure of their guilt, and what
could this mean, if one sin were as bad in divine estimation, and filled
up as much space as a thousand 1 It is true. He punishes all sins,
but not alike ; therefore all are not equally heinous in his sight. Mr. C.
says, " I wish the gentleman would enable me to deliver myself," ice.
You may deliver yourself on any point you please, I have no objection.

His next attempt at proof of immorality, was the allegation that we
have destroyed the second commandment, rejecting the law against
making graven images, that wo may worship creatures, and images
of creatures, and introduce idolatry ! the invocation of the spirits of
dead men and women, &c. &c. My friends, this charge of leaving
out the second commandment is very stale, and, no doubt, my Protes-
tant hearers will be astonished to see and hear for themselves that it
is utterly unfounded. Here is the Catholic catechism of this diocese :
it thus reads. 2. "Which is the first commandment 1" Ans. "/a»»
the Lord thy God, who hroui^ht thee out of the land of Egypt, and out
of the house of bondage. Thou shall not have strange gods before me.
Thou shall not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any-
thing, that is in the heavens above or the earth beneath, or in the waters
under the earth .- thou shall not adore them nor serve them.^'' The Douay
catechism is equally full, (holds it open,) so are all our bibles. I
will display this little catechism here, or I am willing to pitch it
among my audience for inspection. They will see that it contains
the commandment in full, and that there is nothing in it, in violation
of the law of God, on this, or on any other subject. It is an admirable
abridgment of faith and morals. If there have been any catechisms
published without the commandments in full, it is because they were
published for the use of children, whose memories were not to be en-
cumbered by too long answers, when the sense and substance of the
precept could be sufficiently expressed in fewer words. As to the
division of the commandments, my friend knows that the bible was

UOyLA^i CATHOLIC &£UOI<m, Sll

not originally divided into chapters and verses as it is at present.
But with this question we are not now concerned.

It is not a crime to make an image, if we do not adore and worship
it instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever ; otherwise God would
have transgressed his own prohibition, for he commanded Moses to
make a graven image, namely, the image of a brazen serpent, and to
6et it up before a people exceedingly prone to idolatry, that they may
look on it and be cured of the bites of the fiery serpents that stung them
for their murmurings in the wilderness. The divine lawgiver also
directed (Exodus xxv.) two images of Cherubim to be made, with
their wings overshadowing the mercy seat of the ark of the cov-
enant, towards which the people turned in prayer, and before which
Joshua and the ancients of Israel fell flat upon their feccs until the
evening, at Hai, when they were defeated, for the sin of Achan, by the
men of that city; and Joshua said, " Alas, O Lord God," &c. vii. 7.
What was the temple of Solomon, built by the special directions of
that God who had forbidden the making of graven images to adore
and serve them, but a temple of images 1 Never has any house, per-
haps, since or before, not excepting the celebrated picture galleries of
the Louvre, abounded more in pictures and likenesses of things in
heaven and things on earth, than did that venerable pile, and yet God
vpas not offended, but promised that his ears should be attentive to the
prayer of him that prayed in that place, as we read in the book of Kings,
The objection is unphilosaphical, as well as unscriptural. What, I
ask, are the letters G. 0. D. but pictures, representing a certain idea?
So written language, when first used, was a series of jHctures, as every
•cholar knows; and the bible abounds, like the temple, with these pic-
torial signs. Again, where is the immorality of looking on the em-
blem of our dying Savior ? Is it not the gospel narrative of his sorrows
and his love, condensed ] The council of Trent, Sess. xxv. teaches,
what every Catholic knows, " that while we venerate the memorials
of Christ and his saints, wc are not to believe that any divinity or
power resides in them." I would, therefore, express in a few words,
the motive of our roRpect for the crucifix, and our sense of its lifeless-
ness and want of power, in the following apostrophe: "Thou canst
not see, thou canst not hear, thou canst not help me, but thou remind-
est me of my God."

Were the objection of my worthy opponent rigorously urged, it
would be impiety for tlieor[)han girl to wear around her neck the like-
ness of a fond, hut alas! preninturcly deceased motlior : or a soldier
boy the miniature of tlie fatiirr of iiis country. The (liffcronl trades and
professions should be arraigned for the idolatrous practice of suspend-
ing before their doorn the signs of their various occupations. 'I'ho
United States' mint would be a factory of idols, and every money-
holder, in hank notes, or the hard mrtal, an idolater! Finally, if the
Catholics subKlitutc the words " honor and veneration " fur " wor-
ship," whf-n speaking of the relative respect paid to tiie rnibh ms of
Christ and his saints, yet even the use of this word could 1)C defend-
ed from the Kible Chron. last ch. where the people, as it reads in the
Protestant lublo, wnrshiprd thr h>rd and the Kini^, but surely not with
the same kind of worship. The rxleripr act appeared the same, but
in the heart, there was distinction of homage. If it lie wrong and an
outrage to the mediation of Chriat to seek inferior intercessors with
God, why did Paul ask tlie prayers of tlio christians to whom ho ad-

^12 DEBATE OX THB

dressed his epistles ? "Why did God command the importunate friends
of Job to ask the just man's prayers for thcin ] Why did he appoint
a priest to offer gifts and sacrifices for sin ? And why did the apos-
tles teach us to say, " I believe in the communion of saints." // was
$tran!^e, said king James, to the Scotch bishops, to allow those honorable
places in the churches, to utiicorvs, Horn, and devils, (griffins) which
were refused to prophets and apostles ! " Let them not lead people by the
tu)se,^' says Dr. Herbert Tliorndike, Prcltemlary of JVest minster, " to be-
lieve they can prove their supposition that the pope is anti-christ, and the
papists idolaters, when they can rw/." Just Weights and Measures,
p. 11. " It is a shame to charge men with what they are not guilty
of, in order to make the breach wider, already too wide." Dr. Mon-
tague, Prot. bishop of Norwich, Inv. of Saints, p. 60.

Another proof of immorality is the distinction between material and
formal sins ! This is a just distinction. The civil law recognizes it.
An injury done with malice aforethought, or formally , is very different,
as to the guilt of the agent, from accidental and unintentional injury.
A child, a maniac, a man in his sleep, or otherwise unconscious of
what he does, and not the culpable cause of that want of conscious-
ness, may inflict an injury, with impunity, for which liberty, and life
should, under different circumstances, be very justly forfeited. My
friend has brought up casuistry. The tendency of such punishments
is salutary : and if a severer penalty is inflicted for the murder of a
priest, Lc, it is to preserve the inviolability of religion, which watches
over the rights of parents, to the fear and love of their children, and
of the law. to the obedience and respect of those for whose preserva-
tion and wellbeing it was enacted. My learned friend traduced the
clergy of the Catholic church and described the dangers of the con-
fessional. As well might he denounce the medical profession. He
read numerous extracts from publications of Smith, Slocum & Go's
joint-stock concern, for the def\imation of innocence. He may sit
down, in the lowest places, with these worthy associates, if he will. I
shall not molest them in their calculations of the '■'■ pieces of silver.^*
" I will leave them alone in their glory."

The gentleman allows that auricular confession was the law of the
church in the fifth century. This is generous, and he is contradicted
in the concession, by some Protestants, who, for want of better knowl-
edge, give the institution a later date. It remounts, however, farther
up the chain of holy usages, viz. to the time of ('hrist, who gave
such power to men as that expressed in the text, St. John, xx. 22, 23.
This power was not to be exercised without a knowledge of the dis-
positions of the sinner, and this knowledge could only be obtained
from his own confession. Leo I. did not, therefore, ''open the
floodgates of impiety by substituting private for public confession,"
The practice is of divine institution, and how horrid is it not, to speak
thus of what all ages and nations of Christianity, the Greek and the
I.alin churches and the sects of the east, have ever held as the work
of Christ, taught by himself and every where jireached by his apos-
tles ! Tertullian and Origen, who lived in the age next to the apos-
tles, hold the following language : " If you vnthdraw from confession,
think of hellfire, which confession cxtingtiishes." '■>Look carefully about
thee in choosing the person to whom you confess — confess to hi my our most
tecrct xzm." " // is necessary,''^ says St, Basil, in the Ath century, " to con-
feu our tins to those to whom the dispensation of the divine mysteries it

ROMAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 213

committed.''^ " Let no one" says Si. .Augustine, *' say to himself; ' Ido
penance to God, in private.^ le it then in vain that Christ has said, what-
soever you loose on earth, shall be loused in heaven ? Is it in vain that
the keys have been given to the church ?" These texts abundantly
prove that auricular confession was practised before the time of Leo 1.
in the fifth century, and consequently that Christ and his apostles
must share the odiunn in which my opponent presumes to involve the
Catholic church. He says the practice of the public confession of sin,
before the whole congregation, was the last entrenchment against the
rapid declension of morals in the fifth century. And yet with glaring
inconsistency, after contending for the practice so vehemently, in
almost the same breath, he tells us : "There is no ear but God's, to
which our errors or our faults ought to be confessed, for that the
secrets of all hearts are his." Can there be contradiction more palpa-
ble ] And does not the Catholic practice save the sinner's honor, gently
withdraw him from the downward path to ruin, admonish him of his
ingratitude and restore him to religion and to society a better man,
in all probability to sin no morel " Is there more condescension or
mercy in a Roman priest," asks my opponent, " than in God ]" Why,
the blasphemous question might have been put to Christ by the leper,
when the Savior ordered him " to go show himself to the priest." Malth.
viii. 4. " Js tiiere more condescension, or mercy, in a Jewishpriest than
in Godr

My friend quotes St. James, " confess your sins to one another :"
but he takes care to omit the antecedents and the coiistquents of the text.
*' Is any man sick among you. Let him bring in the priests of the
church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name
of the Lord, and the prayer iffailh sfiall save the sick man, and if he be
in sins, they shall Ije forgiven him.''' James V. 14.- Is not obedience
to the directions of the Holy Ghost, the calling in of \\\c priests and
availing himself of their ministry, the indispensable condition prescri-
bed by God himself,, in the scripture, for the cure of the corporal mal-
adies, but, much more, of the sins of the fiick man T Could my
friend have bt^en more elTectually refuted thuu he evidently is by
e text of his own selection ? [Time expired.]

Four o'clock. F, M.
Mr. Camtbem, risn —

From the beginning 1 have said, and I repeated it yesterday, that
1 would not state any fact which I could not sustain. I do not care
how often I am put to the test. I have here three catechisms, in
which the second commandment is omitted, and to keep up the number
ten, they have made two out of the Iflth. Here are two catechisms,
published l)y the autliority of the Iloman (Catholic church, 'i'he title
of one, from the highest authority since the council of Trent, is as
follows : —

" The most Rev. Dr. Jnmt-l BuIUt'ii catrrJiiBm : revised, rnlnrf^ed. npprovrd.
And reconiiiifndcd by four Roiiiiin Catholic Arrhbinliops of Ircliinil, an a pfnci«l
cnJcrhinni for Ihc Itin^docn. SiifTrr little childn-n to come to iiir, and forbid
thrill not, for of mirh m (he kin^^doiii of (Jod. Mark x. I'l. Thin Ib rlrrnal life,
that thfy iiiif^ht know thcr, llic only tnic! (lod, and Jrsin CliiiHt. whom thou
hatt gent. John, xviii. ;j. Tw»lfth eijition: cari^fiiily rorrrrted and iiii|)rovrd,
with Bniendnif.nti. liublin; iViiiled by Richard Coynr, "1. (,"ap«:l «t. Hookseller
end Printer to the R. C. C'ollcjje rjf St. Patrick and Maynooth, ood publisher to
the Catholic Biahopi of Irclaud. I82G." [See tiugc 36.
T 28

214 DEBATE ON THB

Q. " Say the commandments of God.

A. 1. I am the Lord thy Goil; thou shalt have no strange gods befora in*.

2. Thou shalt not take ihe name of the Lord thy God in vain.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods. Kxod. xx."

Are these the ten commandments of God, as all Roman Catholic
children are taught !!

The single fact that the four archbishops of Ireland, and the Rom-
an Catholic college of Maynooth should have impiously dared to
Btrike one commandment from the ten, which God wrote on two tables
with his own finger, and should have changed and divided the tenth
into two, speaks volumes in proof of my allegataagainst the Romanist
rale of faith. But we shall hear another witness — Title:

" The General Catechism revised, corrected and enlarged by the Right Rev-
erend James Doyle D. D. Bp. &c. and prescribed by him to be taught through-
out the diocese of Kildaire and Lerghlm. [Motto the same as in the other, ster-
eotyped and printed at Dublin by the same printer, A. D. 1827. J See. p. 25.

Q. Say the ten connnandnientsof God.

A. I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have any strange gods before me.
Thou shalt not make to thyself neither an idol or any figure to adore it.

2. Thou jhalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord
fvill not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord bis God in vain.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods."

This merits the reprobation pronounced on the preceding.

Again : here is an American catechism. — Yes, in this land of
bibles has been published a catechism, in which the same liberty ia
taken. Its title is :

" An abridgement of the Christian doctrine, with proofs of scripture
on points controverted, by way of question and answer : composed in
1619 by Rev. Henry Tuberville, D. D. of the English college of
Douay : Now approved and recommended for his diocese, by the right
Rev. Benedict bishop of Boston, This is the way, walk ye in it."
Isa. XXX. 21. New York; published by John Doyle; No. 12. Liber?
ty street, stereotyped by A.Chandler. 1833." See p. 54.

" Q. What is the second conmiandnient ?

A. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."

Is this the second commandment? It is not. That child is taught
falsehood, which is taught thus to learn the decalogue. If the Roman
bishops and archbishops in Ireland and America, in this our day can
thus impose on all the youth in the Roman communion, and thus per-
vert and annul one of God's commandments, to make way for the
worshiping of images, what shall we say of the morality of her rulo
of faith in this and other matters?

It is a poor apology for this expurgation of the decalogue, that it is
not so done in the Douay bible : for when these catechisms were in-
troduced, and even yol in most Catholic coimtries, not one layman in a
thousand ever read that bible : the catechism intended for universal
consumption contained all his knowledge of God's law. What my-
riads, then, through this fraud, must have lived and died in the be-
lief that the second commandment was no part of God's law ! It
is clearly proved, that the pastors of the church have struck out one
of God's ten words; which not only in the Old Testament, but in all
revelation, are the most emphatically regarded as the synopsis of all
religion and morality. They have also made a ninth commandment
out of the tenth, and thsir ninth, in that independent position, be-

R05LVN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 215

comes identical with the seventh commandment, and makes God use
a tautology in the only instrument in the universe that he wrote with
his owil hand ! But why this annulling of the second commandment'?
Because it is a positive prohibition of the practice of bowing down
to images, and doing them homage; a custom dearer to the Romish
church than both the second and the seventh commandment ! It is,
however, gross idolatry. So far at least as the ignorant and unedu-
cated part of the community is concerned ; no spiritual, no highly
cultivated mind needs such aids of worship — nay, they would, to
such persons, be hindrances rather than aids of devotion. But tho
uneducated and sensual mass, which are in that community, — the vast
majority, literally adore the image, and delight in the picture more
than in the Oeator. And, therefore, the abrogation of the second
commandment, by the priests, is the positive introduction of idolatry.

The Hebrew bible says and all versions of it in effect say, " Thou
■halt not make unto thyself any graven image, nor the likeness of
any thing in heaven above, nor in the earth beneath. Thou shalt not
bow down to them nor serve them." The gentleman made as hand-
some and eloquent a defence of the practice of violating this solemn
precept as could be well imagined. He referred us to the tabernacle
and temple, of ancient time full of types — patterns of things in hea-
ven, &c : but unfortunately for his logic, none were permitted to wor-
ship these patterns of ideas. They were but to portray the things to
be revealed in the gospel age — a picture-book, to sketch the outlines
of that redemption, which the Messiah wrought, and of the worship
of the kingdom of heaven. They never presumed to worship them,
they looked through these outward symbols, or signs of ideas, to the
spiritual substance as we look through unfigurative language to the
sense.

The " brazen serpent " introduced by my opponent, had the authori
ty of God, for its being made, and was a splendid type of him that
destroyed the serpent, that old serpent the devil, who had bitten the
human race. When men bitten, looked at it, they were healed : but
when thf-y began to worship it, it was destroyed. I say, it had the
authority of God. But where is the same authority for carrying
about the bones of a dead saint, or the hair of the Virgin Mary, or
the feet of Balaam's ass] Where is the first word, in favor of wor-
shiping or making an image of the cross, or of the Savior, or of any
saint 1 or of venerating a grave, a relic, or a picture 1

My opponent ingeniously asked, if the name of God were not a
picture] Profound reasoning! The name of (Jod a picture of the
same class with the image of the cross and of the Virgin! But a
mother says to her infant, " my life !" and she may say to Lady Mary
in the same style, " my life !" Ingenious ! I would ask this Roman
Calholie lady when sIk; looks upon her rliild, and exclaims " my life,"
if she feels the same religious affections, the; same pious emotions,
as when she looks np to tlit; Virgin Mary and exclaims, " wy ///*»■.'"
Is not the gentleman rather playing [he s(p))liist, or sporting in jest,
than gravely reasoning ilic subject] ('trtainly, he would not ho leach
his congregation in the absence of Protestants! This is as felicitous
and as rlir-loriral as his allusir)ns to the. device and images on medals,
or on gold and silver coin. There is, indeed, idolatry here! But
there is no hypocrisy in tho temple of mammon. Moreover, these
worshiperfl adore not the image of money ; but the money itself.

216 DEBATE ON THE

Next came the cherubim. What an association of ideas ! "What
confusion in the mind that associates the cherubim in Solomon's tem-
ple, with the image on a dollar ! Is the gentleman serious ? Did the
people see the cherubim, in the holiest of all ] Aaron, the priest, only
stood before those cherubim, as the type of our high priest, who offers
his sacrifice in heaven : and Aaron stood there only once in a year.
If he understood either the type or the anti-type, he could not adduce
it either for the worship of an image or the offering of any sacrifice on
earth: for, like Aaron in the holiest of all, Christ offers his sacrifice
in heaven. Aaron presented the blood upon the propitiatory : but Christ
entered once for all. As the bishop's high priest is not in heaven but
at Rome; all the sacrifice which he can offer on earth is not worth a
farthing: for in the Christian and Jewish sense, no sacrifice on earth
can avail any thing. Such were the types, and such, pertainly,are the
anti-types. Offerings for sin, now, are only made in heaven. The
very allusion to Aaron, strikes a blow at the priesthood of the Roman
Catholic church, as if God had not accepted in heaven, the sacrifice of
his Son, and called for their assistance ! !

But it is hinted that I should more fully prove the immorality of the
Roman Catholic rule of faith. I have no lack of documents on this
subject. The saint Ligori, by the help of saint Pius VII. has richly
furnished us with indubitable authority. "The attorney general of the
devil lives at Rome," says my opponent, "and prevents the beatifica-
tion of all saints." How great, then, must have been the virtues of
St. Ligori, who, in spite of the devil, was canonized by pope Pius
VI1 1 r See how equivocation is taught in this rule of faith and mo*

rality : —

" To swear," says St. Ligori, " with equivocation, where there is a good rea-
son, and equivocation itself is lawful, is not wron^. And if a person swears
without a good reason, it is not to be (-onsidercd p perjury; since, in one sense
of the word, and according to mental restriction, he swears what is true." Li-
gor. Lib. iii. N. 151. [Synopsis, 159.

Dissimulation is variously taught.

" It is lawful,'' continues Ligori, "for a Catholic, when he

is passing through a country belonging to heretics, and is in danger of losing hi*
life or property, to pretend that lie is not a Catholic, and to eat meat on fast
davn." Id. Lib. ii. N. 15. [Synopsis, p. 216.

This new old rule of faith has made some new sins, which neither
patriarchs nor Jews did ever commit; and here is one of that class
which no American can ever commit:

" Is it a mortal sin," asks the saint, to stealasmall piece of a sacred relic? Ans.
" There is no doubt, but that, in the district of Rome, it is a mortal sin. But out
of this district, if any one steal a small piece of a relic, it is probable that it is
no mortal sin, provided the relic be not thereby disgraced, nor, its value less-
ened; unless it be some notable or rare relic, such for in^itance, as the Holy
Croa». or the hair of the blessed Virgin Mary," &c. Id. ib. N. 532. [Synopsis,
P- 167.

There is a secret on the subject of infallibility, which the saint Li-
gori has begun to divulge. Custom, it would seem, since general
councils are gone out of fashion, is from this time forth to be the
standard of orthodoxy and infallibility; at least, in morals. Listen
to the moral theology of the Romish church on this point :

" Custom," says the saint, " is defined the unwritten law. In orderthat custom
should obtain the force and obligation of law, three things are required. 1st.
That it be introduced not by any particular person, but by a community, or at
least, by the majority of a community, which is capable of making laws, al-
though, in fact, said community cannot make the laws. 2ndly. It is required

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 217

that the custom should be reasonable." Custom has a threefold state. In the
beginning all those persons \vho introduce a custom contrarj' to law, sin. In
process of time, those who follow a custom that has already been introduced
Dy their ancestors, do not conmiit a sin in following the custorii, but they can be
punished for it by the prince. In fine, those who follow a custom afttr it has
become a rule, neither sin, nor can they be punished for it." Id. lb. i\. 107.

" The time required according to the canons of the Romish
CHURCH, FOR A CUSTOM TO BECOME A LAW. In order that custom should
obtain the force and oblig.iLion of law, it is required,

"3dly," continues the saint, "that it should continue a long time with re-
peated acts. In regard to the time that is sutiicient to render a custom lawful,
one opinion is, that it is to be left to the judgment of the prudent, according to
the repetition of the acts, and tlie quality of the matter. The second opinion is,
that ten years are required, and are sulticient; for this is the length ot time re-
quired for the introducing and legalizing of a custom by the canonical law, un-
less it be in some place where the contrary is sanctioned." Id. ib. Lib. i. IV. 107.
[Synopsis, p. 183.

" Merchandizing, and the selling of goods at auction on the Sundays, is, oa
account of its being the general custom, altogether lawful. Buying and selling
goods on the Lord's daj- and on festival days are certainly forbidden bv the can-
onical law, but where tne contrary custom prevails, it is excusable." Id. lb. N.286,

" He who makes use of the knavery and cunning," says the saint, " which is
usually practised in gambling, and which has the sanction of custom, is not
bound to restore what he wins, since both parties know that such tricks are cus-
tomary, and consequently they consent to them." Id. ib. N. 882.

Gambling consecrated for priests and people by the law of custom :

" We will now s'low, however, t le canons tj tne contrary, notwithstanding,
that aJl sorts of gambling arc allowed. This we prove Ironi Ligori's own con-
cessions. He teaches as lollows; — " The canon'*," says he "' which forbid games
of hazard do not appear to be received except inasmuch as the gnmbling
is carried on with the danger of scandLil. Be it known," continues he, "that the
above mentioned canonical law is so much nullified by the contrary custom, that
not only laymen, but even the clergy (io not sin, if they play cards principally
for the sake of recreation, andj'or a moderate sum of money." Id. lb. N. 883.
[Synopsis, p. 235.

A new way of sanctifying the sabbath :

"BuLE FIGHTS A.M) I'l.AVs AM/)\VKi). " On the entrance of a prince OF no-
bleman into a city, it is lav. I'ul on a Sunday to prepare the drapery, arrange the
theatre, &c., and to act a comedy, alio to <xhibit the bull-fights; the reason is,
because »uch marks of joy art moralbj necessary lor the public weal." Id. ib.
IV. 304. [Synop«i«. p. 193.

The Roman Catholic rule of manners makes it even lawful to sin :

" It is lawful," says Ligori, " to iiulucc a person to commit a smaller sin, in or-
der to avoid one that is greater." Id. JV. 77. [Synopsis, p. 255.

" Let the Confessor," says the snint, " enjoin upon those scrupulous, who are
afraid of sin in every action, that they dct Iriely, despise their scruples, and do
contrary to what they dirtal"', where sin is not evident. [Synopsis, p. 173.

This law licenses drunkenness :

"It is no sin to g<^t drunk, by the a<!vi(-e ofn physiriiin, if one's health cannot
Otherwisf; bi: rcfttorcd." id. iS . 70. (SviiopsiB, \>.'ir>A.

Hence drunkards may bq acceptable communicants !

" It ii lawful," sayn Ligori, " to administer the s.k rniiients to dninkards, if
they arc in the probable flanaer of death, and had previously the intention of
receivin;; thrm."' LIgor, vi. N. 81. [Synopsis, p. 260.
Ignorance is the mother of dcvouon, even yet :

The si.NNf.R .MUST he i.Krr iv ifJvoiiANrE. — 'I h«: iloctrine it at followt: (1
take it from the onint verhntim.) " If the penitint (says he,) is in inculpable
ignoniiire, in regnrrl t'l those thing* conrcrning wliicli, it is possible to 1)p invin-
cibly ignorant, although this ignonime be of the ' law of (iod,' and the mnfcssor
prudently thinks (hat to ndinoni'h the penitent would not correct him, then, and
in that case, the confessor inu.it abntuiii from admonishing the penitent, and mutt
leave him in his ignorance." Id. ib.

Heretics are still to be punished, not only by virtue of the general
T 88

218 DEBATE ON TIIK

council of Lateran, A. D. 1215, which says, "Let the secular powers
be compelled, if necessary, to extcnninalc, to their utmost power, all
heretics denoted by the church;" but according to the moral theology,
as reported by the saint.

Hkoetics to i)k pu.mshed. — " A bishop is bound," says Benedict XIV. " even
in places where the tribunal of thuhuly inijiiisilioii'is in force, sedulously and care-
fully to purge the diocese that is committed to his care, from heretics; and, if he
find any of them, he ought to punish them according to the canons; he should
however, be cautious, not to iimder the iiitjuisilors of tlu faith from doing their
dutv." Ligor. Kp. Doc. INlor. p. 378. [Synopsis, p. 294.

From the influence of all these laws, why should it be thought
strange that the clergy are exceedingly corrupt? Listen to the saints

How many rtlapsing sinners are involved in eternal ruin by following the
directions of bad confessors! "The saint has told us, that, AMONG THE
PRIKSTS, WHO LIVK IS THE WORLD, IT IS RARE, AND VERY
RARE. TO FIND ANY THAT ARE GOOD." [Synopsis, p. 180.

Yet according to these assumptions, under the sanction of Christ,
all are bound to hear them on peril of damnation: for, " he that hear-
eth you, heareth me ; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me : and he
that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." So, to despise these
priests, is to despise God !

Once more, from Ligori, and I shall have given almost a specimen
of the immorality and impiety of the Roman Catholic rule of faith, on
general points of religion and morality. There is no one subject on
which we could be more copious than this one : but from respect to our
audience we shall give but the remotest hint.

"A bishop, however poor he may be, cannot appropriate to himself pecuniary
fines without the license of the apostolical see. But he ought to apply them to
pious uses, %vhich the council cf IVcnt has laid upon non-resident clergymen, or
upon those clergymen who keep nieces." Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444. [Synop-
sis, p. 294.

Now, if a priest should keep a riicce, it is a very expiable and tri-
fling offence; but should he marry a wife, he must be excommunica-
ted forever! Thus the Roman Catholic rule of faith treats the Bible,
and annuls, at pleasure, every law and institution of heaven ! Have I
not, then, my respected auditors, fully proved the fallibility and im*
moral tendency of the doctrine and rule of faith, of the bishop's church
— to say nothing of that system upon the clergy themselves, who ex-
pound and inculcate it?

One word, before I sit down, on the unanimous consent of the Greek
and Latin fathers. I have said before, and I repeat it, if they agree
on any two points, they are, in giving testimony to the scriptures, and
that it is the duty of all to read them. So far they are all Protestant,
and not Roman Catholic. — [Time expired.]

Half past 4 o'clock, P. M.
Bishop Furceli, rises —

The extract from Chillingworth will be viewed by men of intelli-
gence, as one of the strongest arguments advanced in this debate on
the Catholic side of the question. And it may be as well to observe,
that my friend has probably first seen it in the Catholic work, the
Amicable Discus.'sion, from which he has quoted. Chillingworth was
distinguished as a controversialist. He had a public disputation, like
tho present, with some Jesuits, by whom he was not only defeated
but converted to the Catholic faith. But yielding, like Gibbon, to the
solicitation of friends, the importunities, the livings presented to him...

BOilAN CATHOLIC KELIGION 219

or to which he was presented, by Laud, archbishop of London, he re-
canted, and finally, as it is on good grounds asserted, he died a Jew.
The only apology he could offer for his versatility was, that he found
every one of these religions in the bible — it was the only resting place
for tht soles of his feel — that is to say, he trampled upon it, to subserve
the purposes of base, worldly interest ! But I have now, thank God,
something more tangible to offer in the way of prorf, that nothing
can be conceived more inexcusably unfair, than the arguments em-
ployed against the Catholic religion. I now pledge myself to shew
to every man of honor in this city, that the last allegation read by
the gentleman, purporting to be from the works of Liguori, is not to
be found in the works of that writer. It is all a base fabrication, I
will not say of Mr. C. ; but of somebody. I will meet this charge
with a complete and an overwhelming refutation. We have now
come to an important crisis in this debate. My worthy opponent re-
duced to the desperation of defeat, like a drowning man, is induced
to grasp at anything and to resort to abuse. But this will not sustain
him. He cannot now quote from Du Pin, or send his readers back to
the dark ages, and draw a grossly exaggerated picture of the personal
frailties of a few popes and then ask if there can be a drop of apostolic
grace in the wliole world. I have three editions of the complete
works of Liguori, in my library, or in this city, to refer to ; and in
none of them can this vile doctrine be found. Mark, then, the pro-
position, my friends. It is this. That priests are allowed to Iteep
mistresses, upon payment of a fine, but that, if they marry, they are
excommunicated ! 1 now call upon Cirarles Hammond, Esq. Judge
Hall, General Harrison, Judge Este, Judge Wright, or any other five
equally learned and honorable citizens of Cincinnati — for 1 only men-
tioned the first that came to my mind — to decide this issue of fact.
I pronounce the whole charge a base, unfounded assertion, and I again
thank Heaven, that I am in a city, where justice will be done to
the truth, and where falsehood will be triumphantly defeated.

The volume froui which the gentleman has been all day reading, ia
one of those books of abomination and falsehood ; put forth, in the
city of New York, by Smith, Slociim and Co. and it is a fair specimen
of their fashion of circulating truth. Does it not furnish strong pre-
fiumplion to the reflecting mind, that there nmst be something divine
in the religion which such men and women combine to abuse 1 It
was the monster Nero, notorious for parricide and lust, who first drew
the sword against the christian religion. Foiget not then, I pray you,
my friends, the proposition that is before us. I am deLcrmined not to
alumber or sleep on this matter, but to probe it thoroughly and ex-
pose its rottenness to the world. Mr. Campbell's allegation against
the Catholic church, is that Liguori, a standard moralist in that
church, teaches, that priests may keep concuhincs by payiiiix a fine, but
that if l/iey marry, they must be excommunicated. Whereas I dislinclly
deny that Liguori has ever taught any thing so aborninai)le, and that
all who say so, arc guilty of a most flagrant violation of the command-
ment of our God, whirli says " Tiiou shalt not ijear false witness

AOAINST Tirv NEIOHBOH." Exod. XX. IG.

The charge of siipprrssing the 'Jnd commandment, while proof to the
contrary, from the ('atholic caleehisuis every where in use in llu; U. S.
and from every (^'atholic bible in the world, was staring him in the face,
may be placed along side of the foregoing ! Add to these, the hardi-

220 DEBATE ON THE

hood with which the plainest wortls of the Redeemer, the emphatic
declaration of St. Paul, and the hiirliesl eulogy of the Apocalypse,
on the superior sanctity of the unmarried state, have been violently
tortured by my opponent, and a fair estimate may be made of the re-
spect he entertains for tlie bible. Kvcn his jests are but little help to
his argument, for error was never genuinely witty. And wiicn he af-
fects to laugh at St. Paul for his liaving been a bachelor, I shall con-
tent myself with replying, yes ! St. Paul was a bachelor: but would
he not have looked well, with seven little squealing children trotting
after him, r/siViHic the churches of Asia ! The remark of St. Paul,
'• have I not a right to lead about a sister?" has reference to the prac-
tice then early introduced, of entrusting in some cases, the instruction
of females, to persons of their own sex, and to the greater facilities af-
forded in this respect, to the apostles and preachers of Christianity, to
convey the knowledge of true religion to promiscuous society, wheth-
er Jewish or Pagan. I consider marriage a holy, nay, a divine insti-
tution. I respect the sanctity of the union, and pay a Avilling tribute
of praise to the eminent virtue of persons engiiged in that state ; but
I must reason and judge with Christ and St, Paul, that if, " he who
marries does well, he who does not docs better." A priest assumes
the obligation of celibacy, at mature age, and voluntarily. God's
grace is sufficient for him, an it was for St. Paul, and his virtuous
struggles against the evil spirit, that dared to tempt even the Savior,
in tiie desert, and Paul, who had been rapt up even to the third hea-
ven, can make virtue perfect in infirmity, without the priest's being as
foolish as the thief, who cut olT his hands, to keep himself from steal-
ing. I hope however that my opponent, or his auxiliary, Smith, will
not be tempted to cut off his hands, for stealing from Liguori, what
is better to any man than trashy gold, his guod name. One word
more. If marriage were as pleasing in the sight of God, as celibacy,
why did God and St. Paul direct abstinence from marriage privileges
as a preparation for seasons of greater devotion 1 According to my
friend, should they not have commanded the contrary]

I pass, in the next place, to relics. The chair in which the signers
of the declaration of Independence sat, the pen with which they wrote
the glorious document, a bit of the wood of the tree overshadowing
the grave of the illustrious Washington, arc all treated with respect,
and sought for with avidity : shall religious memorials alone be trea-
ted contemptuously? What says the bciipturo. Acts. xix. 11. .Snd
God xoroughl by the hand af Paul more than common miracles, so that
even then were brought from his body to the sic/c, handkerchirfs, and aprons,
and the diseases departed from them, and the iviclced spirits went out if
them. " The woman, troubled twelve years, with an issue of blood,
said within herself, " if I shall touch only his garment, I shall be
healed," and she was healed ; and Jesus turnini^ and seeing her said: Be
of g(,od heart daughter, Ihi/ faith ha'h made the: whole.''^ Ev(n withut faith
or consciousness, there is a miraculous cure recorded in IV Kings xiii.
21. " .Ind Eliar.us died and they buried him. Jlnd the Rovers from
Moab came into the land, the same year, ^nd some that ircrt burying a
man, saw the Rovers and cad the buly into tht sepulchre (f Eliseus. And
when he had tnuclud the bones if Klizixts, the man came to life, and stood
upon his feet." I have no doubt that these texts have never been read,
or at least reflected on, by learned Protestants, like my friend, who
ridicule Catholics in the pious simplicity of their souls, for venerating

KOHAN CATHOLIC EEUGION. 221

dead men's hones. If the corpse of a prophet who had never seen Je-
sus Christ, could impart such a miraculous virtue, as to resuscitate
the dead, why is it considered absurd to invoke the prayers of the
living and beatified spirit that knew and loved, and watched over the
Savior on earth, and that now reigns gloriously with him in heaven?
If Eliseus was good, was not Mary good ] If the prophet of the Sa-
vior had so much.power, had the mother of the Savior none'? Hav-
ing now disposed of celibacy and relics, I resume the subject of con-
fession.

I shall now proceed to vindicate the scriptural origin, the moral
tendency and the immense benefits conferred on society by the theory
and practice of the sacrament of penance, as held in the Catholic
church, from the weighty charges preferred against it by my oppo-
nent. On this subject the council of Trent, ch. vi. teaches: " the penance
of a christian after his fall (from the grace of baptism) is very dilferent
from that of baptism, and consists, not only in refraining from sins,
AND A DETESTATION OF THEM, namely, a contrite and humble heart, but
also in a sacramental confession of them, at least in desire and at a
proper time, and the priestly absolution ; and, likewise, in satisfac-
tion, by fasting, alms, prayers, and other pious exercises of a spiritual
life ; not, indeed, for the eternal punishment, which, together with the
crime, is remitted in the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament,
but for the temporal punishment, which ihe scripture teaches is not
always wholly remitted as in baptism." Such is, and ever has been,
the doctrine of the Catholic church, which thus ascribes the whole
glory of man's justification to God, through Jesus Christ, our only
Savior. She teaches that God alone can forgive sin, and that without
sincere sorrow, which induces us to detest sin more than all other
evils together, the words of absolution would be a mockery ; and this
sorrow may be called contrition, or attrition, the name matters little;
it must be true, interior, pretcr-natural, universal, sovereign; that is to
say, it rnusl come from the heart, and from a motive suggested by
faith ; it must extend to all sins witliout exception, and be accompa-
nied by a sincere resolution to sufTrr every evil, even death itself, rather
than offend God any more. This is the only idea of penance, as a
fiacrainent, inculcated by the Catholic church, and from this, it ap-
pears, how horrid is the guilt of our calumniators, who, when they
find us otherwise invulner;ible, assail us with the poisonous siiafts of
slander and niiHre])resentalion, preteiiding, wliii(^ tlify know full well
how sincerely wc rt probate the doctrine they impute to us, that the
pope grants licence to commit sin, and that priests forgive it for money !

J'he power of the priests to absolve the contrite sinner, is based on
the texts, John xx. Mattlnw xvi. where (Christ gives the keys of hea-
ven to Peter, and Ch. xviii. l.'I, wlien/(c ilcchircs to all Ihe apostles, after
brcnthinf^ on them, and liivint^ them the Iloh/ (ihoul, " Verily I say unto
you, ivhutsoncr »/f ."hall bind on earth, t.hall be bound in heaven, and
whatsoever ye fhall liuise on earth, thall be loosrd in hraven.^^ Uy these
words we considir the priest vested with a ju(lifi;il i)ow( r by Jesus
Christ, to liind or to lo(;se from sin; and ;is this power cannot be ex-
ercised without a knowledge of the sinner's dispositions, especially as
to his sorrow for past sins, and his sincere resolution to refrain irom
them in future, which knowledge none but the sinner himself can
give, we conclude on the necessity of Racrarnental confession to tho
the priest, who holds tho place of Christ in tho spiriluul tribunal.
t2

222 DEBATE ON TUB

There is no immorality in this belief; on the contrary, the most in-
calculable benefits have accrued from it to religion and to society. If
my friend say that it is impious to ascribe to man a power which be-
lono^s to God alone, 1 answer, that if (Jod choose to give such power
to man, it would be impious in man to deny such power to God, and
a grievous sin of disobedience, to refuse to use it. If he persist in
saying, that man cannot be empowered by God tp forgive sin in the
sacrament of penance, I will ask him, why then is man empowered
to forgive sin in the sacrament of baptism? I ask, why does he

Juarrcl with Catholics for employing the words — " I absolve thee
rom thy sins," when Episcopalians do the same] Here is the church
of England book of common prayer; and in it, I read as follows :
" When the minister visits any sick person, the latter should be moved
to make a fp^cial confession of his sins, if he feels his conscience troubled
with any wn^hit/ matter i after which confession, the priest shall absolve
him, if he humbly and heartily desire it, after this sort .• " Our Lord Jesus
Christ, who hath Iff I power to his church, to absolve all sinners who truly
repent and believe in him, of his great mercy, forgive thee thine offences,
and by his authjrily committed tome, I absolve thee from ai-l thy sins,
JTJ the name ff the Father, and rf the Son, and rf the Holy Ghost,'''' Amen.
Soon after king James I. presented to the world, in his own person,
the anomaly of head and member of the English church, and lord spi-
ritual and temporal of tlie realm, he asked his prelates at Hampton
court, what authority this church claimed in the article of absolution

{rom sin? (Mark — the new Peter did not know his powers !) Arch-
ishop Whitgift began to bamboozle him with an account of the gene-
ral confession and absolution in the communion service; with which
the king being dissatisfied, Bancroft bishop of London, fell on his knees
and said, "It becomes us to deal plainly witli your majesty; there is,
also, in the book, a more particular and personal absolution in the
visiting of the sick. Not only the confessions of Augsburgh, Bohemia,
and Saxony, retain and allow it, but also Mr. Calvin doth approve
both such a general and such a private cutfession and absolution,'''' " I
exceedingly well approve it, replied his majesty, it being an apostolical
and godly ordinance." Bancroft was right in quoting the Augsburgh
confession, for the Lutherans, the real Simon Pure of the reformation,
in the confession of faith, and apology for that confession, expressly
teach, " that absolution is no less a sacrament than baptism and the Lord's
supper i that particular absolution is to be retained in confession, that to
reject it is the error of the Novation heretics ; and that by the power of the
keys, sins are remitted, not only in the sight of the church, but in the sight
of Gc/f/." Luther himself, in his catechism, required, that the penitent in
confession should expressly declare that he believes ^'' the forgiveness of the
priest to be the forgiveness of 6'ot/."

On this topic, before taking up the voluminous evidence before me
for the doctrine of the Episcopalians, on this side the great water, I
must produce evidence, not to be contradicted by the champion of all
Protestantism. It is that of the redoubted Chillingworth. Treating
of the text, John xx. 22, 3, he asks : " Can any man be so unreason'
able as to imagine, that when our Savior, in so solemn a manner, having
first breathed upon his disciples, thereby conveying and insinuating the
Holy Ghost into their hearts, renewed unto them, or rather confirmed that
glorious commission, whereby he delegated lo them an authority of hind'

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 223

ing and loosing sins upon earth, can any one think, I sat/, so unworthily
of our Savior, as to esteem these words of his for no better than compli-
ment? Therefore, in obedience to his gracious xvill, and as I am war-
ranted and enjoined by my holy mother, the church nf England, {you see
Protestants use the style ^ holy mother church'' as well as Catholics') I be-
seech you that by your practice and use, you will not suffer thai commis-
sion which Christ hath given to his ministers, to be a vain form of words,
without any settse under them. When you find yourselves charged and
oppressed, have recourse to your spiritual physician, and freely disclose
the nature and malignity of your disease, .ind come not to him only
with such a mind as you would go to a learned man, as one that can
speak comfortable things to you ; but as to one that hath authority, dele-
gated to him from God himsef, to absolve and acquit you of your sifts.
If you shall do this, assure your souls, that the understanding of men, is
tu)i able to conceive the transport, and excess nf joy and comfort, which
shall accrue to that man's heart, w/io is persuaded he hath been made par-
taker of this blessing."

An accredited writer in the New York Churchman, of the 7th Jan.
one of the ablest periodicals in the United States, quotes the most
convincing texts from Origen, Cyprian, Basil and Gregory, under the
head of antiquity.

Origen (flor. A. D. 220) in Horn. 10 in Numb.

" Laicus si pecrtt, ipse siiuni iion potest auferre peccatuni, sed indigtt sa-
cerdole, uf possit reiiiissionrni peccatoruiii arcipere." Tiie same father, in his
seventh homily on Luke, " Si enini hoc fecennius et revelaverimus peccata
nostra, non solum Deo; sed et his, qui possunt niederi vulneribus nostris atque
peccatis; delebuntur peccata nostra ab eo, qui ait, ecce delebo, ut nubem, iniqui-
tates tuas et sicut raliglueni percata ttia." fLat. ver. ex. Taylor.)

St. Cyprian (flor. A. D. 240) in lib. de lapsis.

" Confiteantur sin^uli, (|urnso vos, (Vatres, delictum suum; dum adhuc, qui deli-
quit, in sacculo est, duiii admitti ejus confessio potest, dum satisfactio, et remis-
sio farts per sarcrdotes apud Dominiim g;rata est."

St. Basil (flor. A. D. 3G0) in Rogul. explic. et Reg. Brev.; 228.

St. Gregory M. (flor. A. D. 590) in horn. 26 in Octav. Pascho.

" (,'aui'C pensaiida- sunt, et cum lipandi atijue itolvetidi pot«stas exerrenda, vl-
dendum est, qux culpa ante, qu;e sit prpiiitentia sequiita, post culpam; ut quos
omnipotent iJeus percompuortionis^ratinm \ iv illcat, illos pastoris sciiteiitinabsol-
Tat : tunc enim vera est absolutio pnrsidentis cum etf'riii arbitrium sequiturjudicis."

'• When Si. James exhorts all cliristiatis ' to confess tlieir sins to one another,'
Certamiy it is mor(^ agreeable to all spiritual ends, that this be done rather to
the curate of souls, than to the ordinary brethren. 'I'he church of K.noland is
no way engaged against it, but admires it and practises it. The C'alvinist c:hurch-
«• did not practise it much, because they knew not well how to divest it from
its evil appendages, which are put to it by the customs of the world, and to
which it is too muidi expoied by the interests, weakn«'sses, and parlialities of
men. But they commendinc it, shew thev would use it williii(;ly, if Iheycould
orrler it unto edification. " Interim f|uin sistant se paslori tjves, ipioties sacrnni
Cfrnnm pnrlicipnre volunt,ndeo non rei'lanio,ut maxime velim hoc iibifpie obser-
vari." Calvin. In«titut. liber, iii. c. A. Sec. 12, lU. And for the Lutheran
churches, that it is their praclirp, we may see in Cheniinllos, '1. part, (Jan.
Cone. Trid. f?Bp. 'i. (\p. I'd-nil.whn is noted tf> this purpose liy Hellnrniine ; only
they all consent fhow very consistently) that it is not necessary, nor of divine
inititution." Jeremy Taylor of auricular confession.

" For Ihty who are tpnllrd willi sins, unleis thry be cured icilh the priestly
authority, rnnnol he in the hoiom >f (he church," said Fahianus Martyr (cilea
by Taylor.)

224 DEBATE ON THE

Translation of the abore extracts from the Latin fathers.
■ (1) If a layman sin, he cannot liiinscll" take away his sin, but has need of a pYieit, that ho
may obtain the remission of his sins.

(•i) For if we do this, and rovful ourselves not only to God, but to those who can heal
our wounds and sins, our sins will be blotted out by him, who says : " Behold, I will take
away your iniquities as n rb)ud, and your sins as darkness."

(3) 1 beseech you, brethren, lot each one confess his siijs, while he who has sinned la yet
in life, while his confession may be admitted, while the satisfaction and remission made by
the priests is ratified with God.

(4) II behovelh each subject to conceal no passion of his soul, but to reveal the hidden
things of hi.* lieurt to those entrusted with the care of the infirm.

f5i The causes are to bo wi-i;.'hcd, and when tlie power of loosing and binding is to be
exercised, we must see what cause preceded, and what penance has followed the fault, that
the sentence of the pastor may ab!>olve those whom the Omnipotent God, by the grace of
compunction, enlivens: for then the absolution of the minister is correct, when he follow!
the decree of the eternal Judge.

[For English divines, see close oflastVpeech of Saturday, January 21.]

THURSDAY, January 19th, Half-past 9 J. M.

The 3th Proposition being read —

" She is the Babylon of John, tlie Man of Sin of Paul, and the Empire of the
Youngest Horn of'Daniel's Sea Monster,"
Mr. Campbell rose and said :

I could have wished, my fellow citizens, that this proposition had
been nearer the close of this discussion. But as my nine propositions
were first arranged as themes for lectures, rather than as propositions
for debate; I could not materially alter either the verbiage or order, af-
ter I had been invited to discuss them with my present opponent.
"Without further ceremony, I proceed to sustain the proposition.

I am not insensible of the difficulties and objections we have to eiw
counter, when we presume; to prove any thing from the figurative and
symbolic language of prophecy. The difficulties are not, however, so •
great as at first view may appear. Symbols are exempt from some of
the objections lying against literal descriptions—7%fj/7»ee</ no /rans/a/ion.
Sun, rnoon, and stars speak the same sublime language to every eye,
and suggest the same devout and lofty emotions to every beart. A
lion, a leopard, a bear, — an earthquake, a tempest, a swelling sea, are
types of the same ideas, and call forth the same thrilling sensations in
every spectator. Hence tlie wisdom in selecting appropriate symbols
of the persons and scenes which fill up the great drama of human exis-
tence, and diversify the prophelic chart, which the revealing Spirit
holds up to the eye of the diligent and faithful student of the word and
providence of God.

But, as on a globe of 13 inches diameter, the earth with all its oceans
and continents, its mountains and valleys, its lakes and islands, cities
and districts, can be displayed in the proper positions and relative sizes
of all its parts, and in an instant presented to the eye; so in a symbol,
can be grouped together all the grand characteristics of a people or an
event, and so accurately and comprehensively, that by a single glance
of the eye more can be learned than from tjie perusal of a volume.

This is, indeed, an advantage which figurative representation has
over that which is purely literal and descriptive. By a glance of the
eye on a globe, or a map, one can have a better idea of a country, or
of the earth, than from the reading of volumes; so by considering a
symbolic representation, we may acquire a more vivid and compre-
hensive view of a subject than by the perusal of many pages.

ROMAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 225

TTiere is but one eye in the universe that pierces all nature throuph;
to which the past, the present, and the future are equally plain. God
alone knows the future. He has revealed it. In the seventh chapter
of Daniel, now lyino^ hefore me, we have one great meridian line, which
runs from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth, and from the reign
of Nebuchadnezzar, the proudest of Assyrian kings, to the ultimate
triumph of the Gospel througiiout the whole earth.

We shall rapidly sketch the contents ofthis chapter, which embraces
more of human destiny than can be gleaned from all human records.
Daniel is in vision translated to the Mediterranean — the great sea —
symbol of people in commotion ; as the earth is of the people at rest.
There can be no more appropriate or striking picture of human society
than the sea. Sometimes it is iranqu'l and smooth as oil, like a splen-
did mirror reflecting the azure vault of heaven: anon it is ruffled by
a gentle breeze that ripples softly on its bosom: again, it swells and
foams and rages in huge mouatain waves that strike with a sublime
awe the eye of every beholder. So the people who, to day are all in
peace and amity in the smooth current of their daily avocations, by some
evil wind or passion are swollen into some mob, or tumult, or tre-
mendous conflict, which for a moment rends the social compact,
destroys all confidence, and jeopardizes the best interests of all. Thus
in the symbol now before us ; — the winds, the passions of men, are in
some great tumult. They strive upon the great sea. Four terrific and
appalling savage monsters in quick succession rise.

They were all sea monsters, for God's symbol of a tyrannical gov-
ernment has always been a savage wild beast. The first was like a
lion with eagle's wings— the fortunes of this eagle-winged lion com-
ing out of a tempestuous sea, fitly symbolized Assyria in its rise, glo-
ry, and decline, after the dynasties of more than fourteen hundred years.

The savage beast, like to a bear, raising itself on one side, standing
•with three ribs in its mouth, viz. Babylon, Lydia and Egypt, represents,
because of its rapacity and cruelty, the empire of the Medes and Per-
sians. This rose from the sea which overwhelmed the Assyrian pow-
er: and it continued for two hundred years.

A leopard-like monster, with four heads and four wings upon its
back, indicates the rapid conquests of Alexander. His short-lived
empire often years, reared upon the ruins of the Medo-Persian, and
spotted with various nations, final iy partitioned among his own four
principal generals, is mo«i appositely represented by the symbol of the
sixth verse.

But a fourth beast, dreadful and teriiblf, and strong exceedingly,
having grt*at iron teeth : which devoured and brake in pieces, and
stamped the residue with the feet of it, diverse from all the beasts
that were before it, liaving tru fiorrt.t, portrays the Roman empire in
those fortunes connpcUMJ with the principal figure in the group. In-
terpreters are as much agreed about the import of these symbols as are
lexicographers in defining the orilinary words of human speerli. For,
although they may difl'er about ibf time when, or tlic! place where, one
of these symbols may rise, or fall, there is scarcely any controversy on
the symbols themselves, or subjects lo which lliey refer.

Hut the principal figure in these four inonsiers remains yet
to be described. " I considered," says the prophet, " and, behald,
there came up among them (rather, "behind them" and unobserv-
ed) another little horn, befnre which, three of the first horns

22lJ DKBATi: ON THE

were plucked up by the roots." Horns, as defined by the Spirit, mean
kiiiffs or kiiifjdoms. The Roman empire was first partitioned between
ten kinfTs or states, after the irruption of the northern barbarians. —
Pepin, the king of France, pave to a pope of Rome one horn, viz. the
exarchate of Ravenna, ('harlemagne gave to Peter's successor the
kingdom of the Lombards — the second horn; and l,ewis the J' ious con-
firmed to the Pope the Stale of Home, a third horn of the original ten.
Tims, before the little horn became very conspicuous, three horns made
room for it, and it occupied their places.

But the f/rtrn/A Aorn is particularly described in the VFords following,
to wit: " In this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and it had a
mouth speaking great things." Here we have a horn, a government,
full of eyes, — sagacious, politic, cunning : and eloquent, persuasive,
boastful, rhetorical, for such are the chief attributes of the horn full of
eyes, having a mouth, &c. The identification of this horn is the grand
point before us. We shall, therefore, hastily seek out its distinguish-
ing^attribules.

By reading the chapter with, now and then, the interposition of a
word, we shall see that the peculiarities of the little horn are clearly
and definitely marked.

" I beheld," says Daniel, "I contemplated the horns till the thrones
were cast down (rather set up : as in the Vulgate, positi sunt,) and the
Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the
hair of his head like the pure wool, his throne was like the fiery flame,
and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth
from before him, thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thou-
sand times ten thousand stood before him, the judgment was set and
the books were opened. I beheld then, because of the voice of the
great words which the horn spake, I beheld till the beast was slain
and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame." Mark, the
entire and complete destruction of the beast of the /t/^/e Aorn is as-
signed to his arrogance and blasphemy, — because of the words which
he spake against God and his saints. The other beasts simply lost
their dominion, but their lives were spared. " As concerning the oth-
er beasts, they had their dominion taken away, but their lives were
prolonged." So ends the general statement concerning the whole, and
the broken, and the restored, empire of the fourth beast.

But to proceed to the second part of the vision. " I saw," &c.
" One like a Son of man — (bar-enosh) came with the clouds of hea-
ven, and came to the Ancient if days, and they brought him near before
him, and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom,
that all people, nations, and languages should serve him ; his dominion
is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his king-
dom that which shall not be destroyed. I asked the meaning of all this,
60 he told me and made me understand the interpretation of the things."

We have now an interpretation authorized and confirmed. "These great
beasts which are four, are four kings which shall arise out of the earth.
But the saints of the Most High shall take (receive) the kingdom,
and possess the kingdom for ever — even for ever and ever." "Then
I would know the truth (meaning) of the fourth beast (empire,)
and of the ten horns ; and of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that
spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows."
The interpreting angel then explains this portion of the vision. " The

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 227

fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom." (King and kingdom are
sometimes used interchangeably.) There never were but four great
universal empires on earth, and there never will be another, except that
of the Messiah. — His universal empire will be the fifth. The fourth
beast " shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down and break
it in pieces." — So did the Roman empire. And the ten horns are ten
kings (or kingdoms) which shall arise out of this empire or kingdom ;
and another (the little horn) shall arise after them. And he shall
be DIVERSE (not merely political) from the first (ten) and he shall sub-
due three kings ; not only shall three of the kings give place to
him, — hut he shall destroy the antagonist power of the three empires
that preceded his. '* He shall speak great words against the
Most High, and shall luear out the saints of the Most High, and
think to change times and laws. — (These three never met in any beings
save the popes of Rome.) And they shall be given into his hand un-
til a time, and times, and tiie dividing of a time."

A time is one annual revolution ; a times, two ; and half a time,
half a year; in aW, forty-two monihs ; or one thousand two hundred
and three score daj's, — the product of forty-two thirties ; or forty-two
Jewish months. Of all this, and of one day being given for a year,
there is no controversy among Catholics or Protestants. Tlie continu-
ance of the empire of the little horn is therefore predestined to twelve
hundred and sixty years.

But the judgment shall sit. The long prayed for and expected judg-
ment sliall be given in favor of the saints. Then shall be taken away
his dominion to consume and to destroy it unto the end or consumma-
tion. "Then" with anticipated triumph be ii spoken — "the kingdom
and dominion and the greatness of the kingdom, under the whole
heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, —
(They were not all worn out by the Little Horn) whose kingdom is an
everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."
Hitherto is the end of the matter.

Now of all these items the sum is —

1. It is a beast, or empire, or power, that grew out of the Roman beast.

2. It rose after tlie empire was divided into ttn kingdoms.

3. It was a new and different power, sagacious and politic — witli
human eyes — an eloquent, persuasive, and denunciatory power.

4. It supplanted and displaced three of the original states of the
Roman empire or of the ten kingdotus into which it was at first divided.

5. It assumed more than any other empire. It uttered great things
and its look was more stout (daring) than its fellows.

6. It made war not against sinners, like other empires — it made war
against nainlii.

7. It prevailed for a long time against them. It " juore out the saints."

8. It presumed to change times and laws. How many fasts, and
feasts, and saints, and new laws, and institutions has this power set up !

9. It had power to hold in subjection all saints, and to lord it over
them for a long lime.

10. It was to be consumed, prradually wasted as the Protestant Re-
formation has been wasting its power and substance for three centuries
— and is yvX finally, suddenly and completely to be destroyed. Can
my learned opponent find ail these characteristics and circumstances in
any other power or empire ia the history of all time ! I trust ho will

228 DEBATE ON THE

give m.^ an opportunity to expatiate on these points and to defend them
more fully.

Meantime, to excite attention, I positively affirm that these items
never met in any Kinfr, Kintrdom, State or Empire, save that of Papal
Rome. There, and there only, can they all be found as large as life ;
and as exact as answers the image in the mirror to the face.

But I hasten to identify this prediction with the Babylon of John.
And in doing this I can at present but sketch the rudest outline. Let
us open the 13th chapter.

John stands in vision on the shore of the great sea, the Mediterrane-
an. He saw a savage beast rising out of the sea. It had seven heads
and ten horns, and on its heads the names of blasphemy. — It resembled
the lion, the bear, and Ihe leopard. It was composed of all that 13
savage. The dragon, the serpent of my opponent, Pagan Rome gave
him his power and his throne, and great authority. — How much does
this resemble the vision of Daniel ! This seven headed Empire with
ten horns — It is on this beast the woman sat— subsequently pictured
out as Babylon the Great. This is tiie Latin Empire which sustained
the Latin church. This is the beast out of which the Little Horn grew.

'I'he wounded head or the imprria/, which was the sixth head, was
healed by the great Charles, and his new empire controlled by the ec-
clesiastic beast, spoke blasphemies and daring things against God, his
name, and all that dwell in heaven. This new religious and political
Empire "made war ag<iinsl the saints and overcame them." "And itcon-
tinued inrforty-lu-o months" "a time, and times and a dividing of time."

His dominion extended over all the western Roman Empire. But
next comes the Litl/e Horr. — the ecclesiastical beast. — In John's vision
this beast resembles a lamb, but it speaks like a drairnn ! Christian
Rome spoke like Pagan Rome ! It obliged all ihe earth to worship the
dragon — It was ('uthoHcl ! It made an image of the Pagan beast. It
gave life to this image, and compelled all to die or worship the image
of the Pagan beast. It was then a bloody persecuting beast. It was
idolatrous as Pagan Rome. But instead of worshiping dead heroes
it worships dead saints — instead of Goddesses it has Lordesses ; angels
instead of demi-gods. —

Indeed Papal Rome has borrowed much from Pagan Rome — Old
Rome had her ponlifex maximus, her purgatory, priests and priestesses,
her victims and " hosts.'''' She had her lustral water as modern Rome
has her holy water. She had her vestal virgins as her descendant has
her nuns. She had her Pantheon as modern Rome has her Vatican,
and in the niches where stood the gods of the dragon now stand the
saints of the Roman Draconic lamb.

My present argument requires me to identify this beast with the
Roman church or with the Little Horn. — And therefore in addition to
the resembling attributes already traced I proceed to the most definite
of its marks. " Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding
compute the number of the beast : for it is the number of a man, and
his number is six hundred and sixty six." —

The ecclesiastic beast, or kingdom is thus definitely the letters of a
name which together make GG6. The name of a man is the name of
this kingdom. Now we begin with a Roman saint — even with the
great Irenaus. We shall find in the name of the king and founder of
the Latin empire the name of this prophetic personage — It is said by

BOJIAN CATHOUC HELIOIO!?. 229

the $aint that among the Greeks the king's name was written Lateinoi

the letters of which being numerals in that language exactly make the

sum : for a 30

•• 1

T 300

• 5
10

V SO

• 70
( 000

066

He made the name of the founder stand for the name of the empire.
But Bellarmine, a learned Jesuit, objects to this — that in the language
and at ihe time the Revelation was written the orthography of this name
was AaT/rif, and not Aart/v:?. And this being so there is a plausible, nay a
relevant objection aginst the interpretation of Irenaeus. We pause not
to examine this matter; because we find a much more consistent and
convincing exposition in the true and proper name of the Institution
which in Greek was always written in full.

HA»Tii.i|2»,'>.i'». The Lalin Kingdom. H=8, A=30. «=1, t==300, i=10, .==50,
,=_8. 3=2, «=1, «=200. -=10, /.=30, i==5, .=10, »=1 : The sum, 666.

The conclusion from these premises is, that as there is no other king-
dom on earth whose name is exactly 666- — and as the beast, the symbol
of this kingdom, has been proved to be the Latin empire, and He La-
tine Basi/eia, being proved to contain C66, this definitely and clearly
marks out the Roman Institution as that to which the 13th chapter of
the apocalypse and the Tih chapter of Daniel refer.

The only question of apparent difficulty that can be here asked, is :
— Whether Rome Pagan or Rome Papal is intended : for that Rome
is intended cannot be questioned. That it is Rome Papal is evident
from the fact that what is called the second Beast, chap. 1 3, verse 12, is,
chap. 16 and 20, called the false prophet — and this is the beast whose
name is given as numericaly equivalent to 666.

This moreover explains that love of Lalin which to this day distin-
guishes this party. They not only have long gloried in the name lio-
man or Lalin Catholic or Church of /iomr, but they still say mass in
Latin, and perform their religious services in that dead language ; for
although I'aul '• had rather speak five sentences in the vernacular, than
ten thousand sentences in an unknown tongue" — that lie might edify
his hearers, — and although in the age of the " primitive Fathers" the
whole chufch prayed and taught in the language of every country
where they worshiped ; still for tlic sake of Latin, to this day and even
in this country, Fiomanists pcrforni th( ir most devout services in that
dead and foreign tongue as though God himself preferred that language
to every other. Thus they are providentially bearing to ail nations and
languages the grand mark, and the number of ihe name which identifies
them as the beast and nabyl"n of .John.

To return to the iiiiHircry of the Proj)het .Tohn : — In the ITlh chapter
this ecclesiastic establishment is coinpiired to a great harlot, with whom
the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and as having intox-
icated all the inhabitants of the earth with the wine of her whoredom.
The woman is further identified by being described as siitin^r upon a
tcarlet brnsl, fuW of blaspheinous names, having nivn /irada and ten
harm; and she is adorned with purple and scarlet, with gold, and dia-
monds, and pearls ; having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomi-
nation and pollution of her wlioredoms. She had upon iier forehead her

230 DEBATE ON TnE

Dame written :—" Mystkky, Babylon the Great, the Mother of
Harlots, and of thk abominations of the Earth." And to make
the matter more certain, tlie Spirit testifies, verse 18 : "Tiie woman
whicli you saw is the great city (spiritually called Babylon, literally,
Papal Uomc) that rules over the kings of the earth."

Having thus connected these symbols, and seen the co-adaptation to
the same" subject we shall here introduce the Apostle Paul with his
plain and unfigurative description of the Man of Sin, 2d chap. 2d Thes-
salonians, and"examine the congruity of his description with the sym-
bols of Daniel and John. He may be regarded as the literal interpre-
ter of them both.

" Let no man deceive you by any means : for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition ; who opposelh and exalteth himself above all that
is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the
temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not,
that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things 1 And now ye
know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For
the mystery of iniquity doth already work ; only he who now letteth
will let, until he be taken ouiof the way. And then shall that Wick-
ed be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his
mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even
him, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all powers, and
signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteous-
ne'ss in them that perish ; because they received not the love of the
truth, that they might be saved." Verses 3 — 10.

The Apostle foretells ^n apostacy {■& falling away) in the Church;
which apostacy would issue in the full revelation or manifestation of
THE Man of Sin, (or of idolairy, for this is the sin of Jews and Gen-
tiles.) The Man tif Sin is again designated as the Son of Perdition.
He was the subject of past prophecy as Judas was; for on that account
he too was called the Son of Perdition — foredoomed to ruin. The names
o{ Man of Sin and Son of ruin, fitly represent this apostacy. The at-
tributes and circumstances peculiar to this passage are the following.

1. He was to come forward stealthily by degrees and unobserved,
(like Daniel's Little Horn, to grow up behind the others) " The secret,
or mystery of iniquity already inwardly works."

2. He could not be revealed till " He who restrains or lets (the Pa-
gan power) be taken out of the way." Political power as well as ec-
clesiastic was necessary to his development. So the Little Horn
did not appear conspicuous till after the ten horns grew out of the
fourth beast. The Man of Sin is, in historic truth, the youngest horn
that sprung from the Pagan beast.

3. He was to exalt himself above all that is called a God, or an
object of worship. My learned opponent will agree with me that God
here may mean, as sometimes it does in the Bible, a magistrate or king.
And certainly not only in the arrogant titles which he assumes, but
in the dispensations which he has granted, in respect to laws
divine and human, no magistrate, king, or potentate, ever claim-
ed so much on earth as the Man of Sin, as the Popes of Rome
He is not only styled " Universal Father," " Holy Father," " His
Holiness," "Sovereign Pontiff," "Supreme Head of the Church
on Earth," " Pater Familias," " Successor of Peter," " Prince of the

RO?I_\.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 231

Apostles," "Infallible One," "Vicar of Christ," "Lieutenant of
Christ," " Prince of the World ;" but he is styled, still more blasphe-
mously, " Lord of Lords," a god on earth, " Lord God the Pope."

4. He places himself " in the temple of God." This ascertains the
Man of Sin more specifically than any other attribute or circumstance in
the passage. He is no Pagan idolater ; he is no infidel Jew ; he is no
author of a new religion ; but he sits in the Church of Jesus Christ —
God's building — God's temple — holding the fundamental truths of re-
ligion, as did this community when the Man of Sin invaded the
Church ; for, yet, the great fads of Christianity are acknowledged by
the Church of Rome, though ^^ made (f no fffect by her traditions."

5. He exhibits or " shows himself to be a god." He claims to
reign not only for Christ as his vicar, but the homage due to a repre-
sentative of God he haughtily appropriates to himself. Such is the

Erediction of the. man of sin ; and who that is conversant with the
istory of the popes of Rome, from their coronation, standing on the
altar in St. Peter's church, receiving the title of God's vicegerent,
assuming the honors of the supreme head of the whole church ; pow-
er over the angels of heaven, over the inhabitants of Hades, and over
the laws and statutes of the bible, can think that Paul exaggerates the
picture by saying that this son of perdition, and man of sin, was to
pass himself off, was to '■'■show himself as a God.''''

6. He is called the lawless one ; verse 8, " the wicked 07ic.^^ So Da-
niel's little horn is represented as " changing (or seeking to change) the
times and the laws." Instances of such dispensations and indulgences
could be multiplied, ad lihitum, demonstrative that such have always
been the professions and assumptions of the " Princes of iheJposllcs.''^

7. But another incident in the history of the decline of the man of
sin deserves our attention, and singularly identifies him with the em-
pire of the little horn. " Whom the Lord shall consume Tor slay) by
the spirit of his mouth, and destroy by the brightness of his coming."
And of the dominion of the little horn, says Daniel: "They shall
consume and destroy it to the end." Paul seems to have quoted the
very words of Daniel, and thus most unquestionably identified the
7nan of sin and little horn as designating the same apostacy from
Christ and his religion.

8. In describing the coming of this man of sin, Ik; is compared to
the deceptions, assiunptions, and approaches of Satan, who has often
assumed a divine mission or tlie power of miracles. So the Roman
church has ever pretendt-d to the power of working miracles, and has
gained and still ri'tains mueii power by false signs and lying wonders.

Of this apostacy, and of the rise and progress of this man of sin,
as described by Paul, we may mark his growth and progress in full
agreement with the records of authentic^ history in the following order
and style: — He was an eiul)ryo in Paul's time. ('I'lie mystery of in-
iquity doth airt'ady inwardly work). He was an infant in the lime of
\ ictor ]., 195. lie was a bold and daring lad in the time of (^onstan-
tine the (Jreat. A sturdy stripling in tin? days of Leo I., when au-
ricular confession came in. He was nineteen years old in the days
of Justinian's code ; and a young man full twenty-one, when Moni-
face ML receiveil from Phocas the title of I'niversal Patriareh or
Pope, A. I). (iOti. Hi- was twenty-five when P<pin and Cliarl'tnagno
gave him political power and glory, A. I). 7<i() : and at full prime, or
at thirty-five, when (iregory the Great took the crown from tlie empe-

232 DEBATE ON THE

peror Hrnn'^ and gave it to Riulolpluis. He had reached his grand cli-
macteric ill the days of WicklitV, a"d Luther gave him a mortal thrust.,
which introduced into his system that chronic consumption under which
he has ever since lingered. But it remains for John the apostle, and last
prophet of the church, to declare his last agony and final overthrow.

Ar. we have no time more than to sketch the naked outline, we
shall hasten to the consummation, as respects the Babylon of John,
60 exactly identified with the subject before iis. In his apocalyptic
developments, 18th chapter, he declares her final doom. My propo-
sition carries in it the indication of a monster. She is the Man of
Sin ! Babylon the Great — a city, a beast, a u'oman, a state, a persecu-
ting poioer ; scarlet, purple, drunken with the blond of the saints, loiih
the blood of the inartyrs of Jesus ! ! Mystfrv ! By mystery she rose,
she reigns ; — her mystery of purgatory, transubstantiation, relics, mi-
racles, signs, sacraments, and unfathomable doctrines, have given her
power: for, says Paul, (2d Thess. ii.) describing the advances of this
son of ruin, and lawless one, " His coming is according to the ope-
ration of Satan, in all power and lying wonders." — Douay Testament.

Babylon, the ancient capital of Chaldea, great as it was, was but
the type. Her antitype is the spiritual city. This city sits upon the
seven mountains of the "//o/y Roman Empire,'''' which the heirs of
Pepin erected. For thus did they blasphemously designate the
new empire erected out of the seven grand electorates of Germany ;
the seven heads of that empire which sustained the assumptions of
the papal see.

But we have now to do with her overthrow. The means of her decay
are, first, the spirit of the Lord's mouth. The reading, preaching, and
circulating of the Bible. The second is the hatred of the ten horns ; "For
the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the
whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh
and burn her with fire." Pltsh is the symbol of riches. And riches
she has had beyond comparison. It is said, that in two churches in
Spain, some fifty years since, there were more gold and silver, in
saints, apostles, and angels, than the richest sovereign in Europe was
worth. Her real and personal estate has never yet been valued. But
the political powers shall get tired of the cupidity and insatiable ap-
petite of this monster, and shall plunder her resources and confiscate
her estate, as in France and England, and thus shall her ruin com-
mence. But at the moment when judgment shall be given in favor
of the saints of the Most High, — when the hour of her destruction
has come suddenly and in an instant, as when an angel hurls a mill-
stone into the sea, shall Home with all her glory be swallowed down,
and engulphed iu immediate and eternal ruin. We do expect in the
final catastrophe of Papal Rome a combination and concentration of
Almighty wrath. The vials of God's fiercest anger await her. The
Plagues of Egypt, Sodom, and Jerusalem arc in store for the Son
of Perdition. In the battle of Armageddon, blood shall flow for
1600 furlongs, to the bits of the horses' bridles. It is remarkable,
that this IGOO furlongs make exactly the whole extent of the State of
Rome, which the popes have so long held. From the Tiber to the
Po is just 200 miles or KJOO furlongs. Still the last act of this ap-
palling drama will be short. The artillery of Heaven's vengeance
shall burst upon her in a moment; for Omnipotence has a long con-
troversy against her for her evil deeds. I have only time to add, that

EO>LVN CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 233

all things said by Daniel, Paul, and John perfectly harmonize in the
suddenness and completeness of her destruction. However gradual,
for a time, the consumption and decay of her strength and glory, she
will die a violent death ; for ail the witnesses attest that a sudden and
overwhelming destruction awaits her.

But amid the tremendous daricness of this dread hour, the bright
and morning star of Israel appears : for as soon as the flying angel,
as it flits across the heavens, announces in words of everlasting joy,
that the hour cf her judgment has come, the angel in his rear, atten-
dant on his flight, shouts triumphantly from east to west: " It is fal-
len! It is fallen ! Babylon the great is fallen!" Then shall there be
"voices and thunders, and lightnings, and the imiversal earthquake
which shall bring the cities of the Gentiles to the dust." Then will
be the time when a voice from heaven exultingly shall say : " Re-
joice over her, ye holy apostles and prophets; for God has avenged
you on her ! Then the immense multitude of saints, — the martyred
millions in heaven shall say: Hallelujah! Salvation, and glory, and
power to the Lord our God : for his judgments are true and righteous :
for he has judged Uie great harlot, who corrupted the earth with her
fornication, and he has avenged the blood of his servants shed by her
hand ! And a second time they said, Hallelujah ! and the smoke of
her torment ascended forever and ever!"

Then, indeed, shall the kingdoms of the whole earth become the
kingdoms of the Lord, and of his anointed. Then the cause, so long
oppressed, shall universally triumph : for ages of prosperity and joy
are yet to crown the labors cf Messiah; and untold millions, the
trophies of his mediation are 3'et to gladden heaven and earth Ly their
cheerful submission to his authority, who shall then be acknowledged
the rightful Kins^ of kings and Lord of lords.

Such a catastrophe is even feared at Rome itself. The popes have
uttered it abroad ; they have proclaimed to the world that they felt St.
Peter's chair tremble under them ; — that the throne of the prince of
the apostles now totters to its fall. In dolorous strains they lament in
their encyclical letters the prevalence of liberal (with them infide!)

firinciples. Kven in Italy and in Spain the sovereiprn jiontifl' observes
ndicatione of the spirit of the arre. Free discussion, the liberty of
the press, or even a whisper about free government, in the environs
of Home, grievously afllicts him. It has been said by the most intel-
licrent in the internal affairs of Roman C'alhoHc countries, that it
would not be the most unexpected event if the present incumbent of
the Papal chair should be the last of the popes of Rome.

Public opinion is fast changing even in those countries, and there
is an under-current which, like a subterraneous fire, is liiiuifying the
foundations of the hills and mountains on which this proud super-
structure rears its aspiring head, 'i'he pope is looking abroad, per-
haps to the "mountaifis of the moon," or to the great vallr-y, as to a
wilderness, in which there may be an asylum reared for him in such
a contingency as miffht drive him from the Kternal city. Who knows
but that the ecclesiastic politics of lioman Catholic Knrope have
aided the tide f»f emigration prrispeciively, on the rhances that are to
decide the fortunes ol the liierareby in llie Old World.

Hut th(! destinies of western l{orne, the theatre of the prophecies
before us, exhaust the symbols of these predictions. The fortunes
of our country and of the I'apacy here, belong to another chapter.

234 DEBATE 0>- THD

Whether it shall simultaneously fall iu the New world, or shall seek
here to recruit its shattered interests, and seek to found a great Ame-
rican Roman Catholic hierarchy, is a question of grave import,
which it is not my province to examine.

JSuch, however, are its oritrin, its history, and its doom in the Old
world, as sketched by the finger of God. And the history of Eu-
rope, for twelve hundred and thirty years, proves, beyond a reasonable
doubt, that Daniel, Paul, and John spake as they were moved by the
Holy Spirit.

I cannot sit down without an apology for the rudeness of this great
outline. It would require hours to fill up the map which I have laid
before you. I have endeavored only to establish the grand landmarks,
and point out the bearings of prophecy upon this institution. In hopes
that my learned opponent will give me an opportunity to fortify the
weak points, and to illustrate the obscure, I give place ; having, as I
judge, redeemed the pledge which I tendered in my fourth proposition :
for in the history of all time, no person will ever find any one sub-
je t in which so many — nay, all the grand characteristics of this
prophetic tyranny, so clearly, literally, and harmoniously meet as in
Papal Rome. On this point I challenge special investigation. — [Time
expired, plus minutes.]

Half past 10 o^olock, A. M. ^
Bishop Purcell lisi s —

Before I take review of my friend's last speech, I wish to complete
my previous one. I was speaking on the subject of auricular and pri-
vate confession, when I was last up, and endeavoring to prove that it
was a practice not contrary to scripture, nor immoral. I have, in proof
of this position, quoted authorities from scripture, from the ancient re-
cords of the Catholic church, and from the divines and practice of the
Knglish church. I now add to them, a quotation from the discipline
of the Methodist church, edition of 1B.'{5, New-York. And, to show
that every argument addressed to yon by my friend, falls with as great
force, nay greater, on Protestants, I will read the following extract,
(p. 84.) You will observe, my friends, that I do not arraign the Me-
thodists, as immoral, or quote their discipline from insidious motives ;
but, to show that our practice is itnitated in a way, by which it is not
improved, but liable to great abuse ; and that every thing that is said
against us, may be said against others.

Section III. — "C/'"'« Band Societies. " Two, three or four true believers, who
have confitled in ca.;h other, form a band. — Only it is to be observed, that in one of
thf5eban;!s, all must be men, or all women; and all n)arried or all unmarried." p. 83.
" Riilfs of lite Band Societies." "The design of our meeting i^ to obey that
command of God, Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another,
that ye may be healed." James, v. 16.

" Some of the questions proposed to one, before he is admitted among us, may
be to this elfect." p. 84. " 1.° Have you the forgiveness of your sins? (a pretty
bard question, my friends to answer, when the scripture "assures us, Eccles.
ix. 1, " Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred;" in other
words, whether he hath, or hath not, forgiveness of his sins.) 5.° Has no sin,
inward or outward, dominion over you? (What scrutiny!) 6." Do you desire
to be told of your faults? 7.° Do you desire to be told of all your faults, and
that phiin and home? 8." Do ^ou desire that every one of us should tell you
from time to time, whalsofver is in our heart, concerning you? 9.° Consider!
Do you desire we should tell you whatsoever we think, whatsoever we fear,
whatsoever we hear concerning you? 10." Do you desire that in doing this, we
thould come a« close as jiossible, that we should cut to the quick, and search

roiia:^ catholic religion. 235

your heart to the bottom? 11." Is it your desire and design to be on this and
all other occasions, entiitly open, so as to speak without disguise, and without
reserve? {(i^J- Any of the preceding questions maybe asked ii often as occa-
sion requires: the four following; at every meeting. 85. 1.° What known sins
have you committed since our last meeting? 2.° What pardcular temptations
have you nitt with? 3.° How were you delivered? 4." Whathaveyou thought,
•aid. or done, of which you doubt whether it be sin, or not?"

They must reveal the whole soul and body, inward and outward
sins; and I defy my friend to quote any ihino-, even from Smith's
Liguori, to surpass that. In the Catholic practice, the confession is
to the priest alone ; who is hound hy holy vows, before God and man,
not to abuse his trust ; and it is unheard of, that a priest has ever vio-
lated his oath, by divulging the secrets confided to his ear, as the
minister of the sacrament. But tell such secrets to one woman, and,
as the witty Frenchman said, when asked why he began a deed with
the words, " Know one woman," &c. : " Why, if one woman knows
it, it is equivalent to " all men," for lliey will all know it soon enough
from her." (a laugh.) I suspect, that my opponent also suspects by
this time, that he has got into a prett}' badylx. I shall be amused to
see how he will ttl out of the noose.

Now, my friends, I have advanced Protestant testimony, to show,
either that the champion of Protestantism has trodden most awfully
upon Protestants' toes, or to prove that the Catholic practice of con-
fession is not immoral. Did time permit, I might cite the most con-
vincing testimony, from the fathers of the reformation, and from the
German princes, to show, that when the restraints of tlie confessional
were removed, the barriers of virtue seemed to be broken down. I do
not choose to use their testimony before this audience. It is sufti-
cientiy well known, and it follows from it, that my opponent ought
not to speak ill of confession ; for it has every where proved itself to
be a useful practice, and one beneficial to society. It has been one of
the most remarkable aids to justice, in cases which legal process could
not reach. To show this, 1 will relate an anecdote. Some one, in
New-York, Rtole a quantity of silver spoons, and, having confessed
the crime to the priest, was told, that neither confession nor absolution
could be of any avail, without restitution of the ill-gotten goods. Res-
titution was accordingly made. Here is a fine practical comment on
the subject. The police, having heard of the aflair, insisted that tho
priest should disclose the name of the thief, and wished to compel him
to do 80, to promote thereby, as itiey supposed they should do, the
cause of justice. The priest, of course, refused to commit a flagrant
breach of trust, and modestly contended, that the cause of justice was
much more efTectually promoted, by the course which a priest in such
case pursued. Refilitulion had been made : was not this enough 1
The police suhpcrnaed him to appear before the mayor of New-York,
the celebrated Do Witt Clinton, who decided that the priest could not
be compelled to give up the name. The lawyer employed by tho
priest, was Mr. Sampson, a Protestant, and an ornann lit to the bar.
He reported the trial. Before reading his spefcli, touching on this
very topic of the morality or immorality of auricular confession, hear
the admirable, but too briff preface, he has prefixed to the volume. I
am sure, every high-minded and honorable man here, whether Pro-
testant or Catholic, will subscribe chet-rfully to hiw Hciitimenls. "Tho
general satisfaction given to overy roligious denominatioo, by tbc de-

230 DEDATE ON THE

cision of Uiis interesiing question, is well calculated to dissipate anti-
quated prejudices and religious jeiiio\isics ; and the reporter feels no
common salisfaclion in niakinj^ it public. When'tliat adjudication
shall be compared with the baneful statutes and judgments in Europe,
upon similar subjects, tiic superior equity and wisdom of American
jurisprudence, and civil probity, will be tell; and it cannot fail to be
well received by the enliirhtened and virtuous of every community,
and will constitute a document of history, precious and instructive to
the present and future generations." Having produced before the
court a book called, "The Papist misrepresented, and truly repre-
sented," and read the misrepresentation first, he continued :

"The papist truly nprtstnleJ, btlievts it dainiiabk' in any rtli<|,ion to make
gods of mm. Hovvevtr he. firmly holJs.that wlitn Christ sijeaUing to his apos-
tles said, John sx. 2-2, "Receive ye the Holy Ghosti whose sins you shall for-
give, lliey are Jhrgii-en; and whose sins yon shall rciaiu, they are retained;''
he f;ave thrtn, and their successors, llie bishops and priests of the Catholic
church, authority to absolve any truly penittnl sinner from his sins. And God
having thus given them the ministry of rcconcilialion, and made them Christ's
legates, 2 Cor. v. 18, 19, 20, Christ's ministers and the dispensers of the
mysteries of Christ, 1 Cor. iv. and given them power that whatsoever they
loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matt, xviii. 18, he undoubtedly be-
lieves, that whosoever comes to them, making a sincere and humble confession
of his sins, with a true repentance and a lirm purpose of amendment, and a
hearty resolution of turning from his evil ways, may from tliem receive absolu-
tion, by the authority given them from heaven, and no doubt but God ratities
above the sentence pronounced in that tribunal; laosing in heaven whatsoever
is thus loosed by them on earth. And that, whosoevt r conies without the due
preparation, without a repentance from the bottoni of his heart, and real inten-
tion of forsaking his sins, receives no benefit by the absolution; but adds sin to
sin, by a high contempt of God's mercy, and abuse of his sacraments."

No wonder then, this latter being the true character of confession, it the bit-
terest enemies of the Catholic failli have still respected it; and that discerning
minds have acknowledged the many benefits society might practically reap from
it; abstracted from its religious character. It has, I dare say, been oftener
attacked by sarcasm than by good sense. The gentleman who argued against
us, has respected himself too much to employ that weapon, and I believe he has
laid all that good sense could urge against it, which we take in very gcKKl part.

But while this ordinance has been openly exposed to scotV and ridicule, its
excellence has been concealed by the very secrecy it enjoins. If it led to licen-
tiousness or danger, that licentiousness, or that tiangrr, would have come to
light, and there would be tongues enough to tell it. WhLl?t on the other hand,
its utility can never be proved by instances, because it cannot be shown how
many have been saved by it: how" many of the young of both stxes, have been
in the most critical juncture of their lives, admonished fioin the commission of
some fatal crime, that would have brought the parents' hoary hairs with sorrow
to the grave. These are secrets that cannot be revealed.

Since however, the avenues that lead to vice are many and alluring, is it not
well that some one should be open to the repenting sinner, where the fear of
lunishment and of the world's scorn, may not deter the yet wavering convert?

f the road to destruction, is easy and smooth, sifacilis 'descensus avemi, may
it not consist with wisdom and policy, that there be one silent, secret path, w here
the doubting penitent may be invited to turn aside, and escape the throng that
hurries him along? Some retreat, where, as in the bosom of a holy hermit,
within the shade of innocence and peace, the pilgrim of this chccquered life,
may draw new inspirations of virtue and repose.

ff the thousand ways of error, are tricked with flowers, is it .so wrong, that
somewhere there should be a sure and gentle friend, who has no interest to be-
tray, no care, but that of ministering to the incipient cure? The syren songs and
blandishments of pleasure, may lead the young and tender heart astray, and the
repulsive frown of stern authority, forbid rtturn. One step then gained or lost,
is victory or death. Let me then ask you that are jjarents, which would you
prefer, that the child of your hopes should pursue the couise of ruin, and cen-

E05IAN CATHOUC EELIOIOW. 237

tinue with the companions of debauch and crime, or turn to the confessional,
where if compunction could once bring him, one gentle word, one well timed
admonition, one friendly turn by the hand, might save your child from ruin, and
your heart from una\ailing sorrow? And if the hardened sinner, the murderer,
the robber, or conspirator, can once be brought to bow his stubborn spirit, and
kneel before his frail fellow man, invite hiin to pronounce a penance suited to
his crimes, and seek salvation through a lull repentance, there is more gained,
than by the bloodiest spectacle of terror, than though his mangled limbs were
broken on the wheel, his body gibbeted or given to the foivls of the air. If
these reflections have any weight at all; if tiiis picture be but true, in an^ part,
better forbear and leave things as they are, than too rashly sacrifice to jealous
doubts, or shallow ridicule, an ordinance sanctioned by antiquity and founded
on experience of man's nature. For if it were possible for even faith, that re-
moves mountains, as they sav, to alter this, and with it to abolish the whole
fabric, of which it is a vital part, what next would follow ? Hundreds of millions
of christians would be set adrilt from all religious fastening! Would it be belter
to have so many atheists, than so many christians? Or if not, what church is fit-
ted to receive into its bosom, this great majority of all the cliristian world? Is
it determined whether they shall become Jews or Fliilanthropists, Chinese or
Mahonimedans, Lutherans, or Calvinists, Baptists or Brownists, Materialists,
Universalists or Destrurtionists, Arians, Trinitarians, Presbyterians, Baxterians,
Sabbatarians, Millennarians, Moravians, Antinomians or Sandcmanians, Junipers,
or Dunkers, Shakers or Quakers, Burgers, Kirkers, Independents, Covenanters,
Puritans, Hutchi^onians, Johnsonians, or Muggletonians. I doubt not, that in
every sect that I have nametl, there are good men, aiul if there be, I trust they
will find mercy, but chiefly so as they are charitable, eacii to his neighbor. And
why should they be otherwise? The gospel enjoins it; the constitution ordains
It. Intdlenince in this country could proieed from nothing but a diseased affec-
tion o( the pia malir, or the spleen." Catholic Question in .\inerica. p. 87.

I will now dismiss the question of confession. There are many things
to which I should like to f/ive answers, in set speeches; but, whoever
reads this controversy, must not suppose that becau-se I have not time
to answer every accusation at length, there is no answer to them. I
catch all I can of what my friend hurriedly utters ; for I cannot hear
liim, for his occasional hoarseness of voice.

When my worthy opjionent slated, in his long-blazoned proposition,
*♦ She is the man of sin," I imagined that lie meant no more than the
exciting of an innocuous laugh at the expense of" Mother Church,"
by making a man of her in her old age. How great, then, has been
my surprise, to sec him, all eail set, dash headlong upon this rock of
commentators, the "infames scopulos iiiterjiretum," around which are
scattercfl in profusion, the wrecks of so ni;iny learned lucuhrittions, for
the last 1800 yeara ! Catholics and ProlestanLs, churchmen and lay-
men, ancients and moderns, Papias and Newton, and last, not least,
Mr. Alexander Camplxdl, liave all egregiously foundered upon tliis
hidden shoal of controversy.

No wonder, the learned Protestant, Scraliger, observed that Calvin
was wise, in not writing upon the Apocalyp.se. " Sajittil Ciilriniis, quia
in Jlpiicahfpnin non srrimil .'" Had we a congregation of scary old
women, instead of intelligent and sensible men, around us, I should
expect to be looked at liy many a |>rying eye, <-onfKleul of seeing one,
at least fif the ten horns, sprouting, or already strong, full-grown, and
threateningly prr rnineiit from my fonliead. Hut as I address reaso-
ners, not visionaries, nor rhapsodists, nor fanatics, I mnst reason,
leaving to my fanciful friend, the reaioiiH of iniaginalion, into wliiefi
he has down, far above my reach. — 1 would not fetch him too hastily
down, but by sending a few arguments, at rispeclful dislances after
one another to pluck a feather now, and a feather then from his wings,

238 DEQATE ON THE

we may fetch him safely, and slowly, and with dignity back again to
the apprehension of log;ic, and common sense. These are the wea-
pons with which I, in the first place, proceed to grapple with the
gentleman.

1st. Is he an tnfalUbk? He pretends not, verily, to be such.
Then what is all his fanciful theory worth 1 It is based on reason and
historj', is it 1 Well hut Hugo Grotius, and Hammond, and Dr.
Herbert Thorndike, not to mention fifty others, of different religious
denominations, but all Protestants, and at least as good biblical and
classical scholars, as my learned antagonist, have ridiculed the notion
of calling the pope of Rome Antichrist ! If only one learned nnd
pious Protestant were pitted against my friend, I would be even
with him, or more than even. — How much superior in this argument,
when I have so many wise men on my side, while all the monoma-
niacs are on his ! " Lei them not lead people by the nose,'''' says Thorn-
dike, " to believe they can prove their supposition that the pope is anti-
christ, and the Fapists, Idolaters, when they cannot.^^ Thus the most
learned and orthodox Protestant divines cannot subscribe to — they are,
on the contrary, ashamed of— this interpretation of my learned opponent.

2nd. Those Protestants, who agree with him in calling the pope,
antichrist, disagree as to the particular pope to be so called, and still
more, as to the time when the downfall of Babylon was to have taken
place, or is to take place — as in the case of the Jewish testimony
against Jesus Christ, there is no agreement among the witnesses.
Braunbom confidently asserts that the popish antichrist was born in
the year 8G ; that he grew to his full size in 376 ; that he was at his
greatest strength in GSfi ; that he began to decline in 1086; that he
would die in 1640 ; and that the world would end in 1711. (Bayle Art.
Braunbom) bishop Newton, Napper, Fleming, Beza, Melancthon, Bul-
linger, had all their peculiar and conflicting theories, and none of them,
we may safely assert, has found the Apocalyptic key. Turien, Alix and
Kelt, are in nothing more wise, and equally unsuccessful.

3d. The scripture is opposed to him. For St. John says, 1st Ep,
ch. 2. V. 22. " That the liar who denieth Jesus to be the Christ is
antichrist." Now this, the pope has never done ; but, on the con-
trary, he contends earnestly for the faith in the divinity of Christ, once
delivered to the saints.

4th. Church history is opposed to him. For it shews, at every
page, how the pope sent missionaries into every part of the world,
even the most distant, to gather barbarous nations into the fold of
Christ, to preach to them salvation through his blood. Now accord-
ing to the rule of the Savior, "a kingdom, divided against itself,
cannot stand." And it is unheard of among all the signs of the anti-
christ, that he was to be the strenuous, and for many centuries, the
only apostle of the true Christ, the Savior. Even the worst pope,
was true to doctrine, and made the beams of the sun of righteousness,
of pure, christian faith, gild the villages of Tartary and cheer the
roving hordes in its deserts.

5th. My friend is opposed to himself; for he said to day, that the
eyes of the little horn signified wisdom and knowledge. Now as the
Catholic church is the mother of ignorance, the victim of blind and
ridiculous superstitions, the cause of all the obscurity of the dark
ages, she cannot be the antichxist. Again its mouth indicated elo-

HOMAN CATIiOLIC RELIGIOX. 239

qnence, was eloquent — Then my opponent is, himself, the beast, for
his speech was truly eloquent. Indeed the ingenuity with which he
dressed up even the old story of " she is fallen, the mighty Babylon,
the great harlot, which corrupted the earth — Allelujah, Allelujah !"
is proof positive that would, hy hi.f comntand of language, deceive, if
possible, even the elect, into the belief, that he had succeeded, where
so many had failed, in breaking the seal of the mysterious volume.
He has clearly put the lion in a net, and not so much as a mouse
durst approach, to gnaw a hole, to let him out.

6th. He is opposed to Catholics. For they have been wont to ap-
ply the words of St. John, just before he speaks of the antichrist, to
the Protestant sects, which, they conceive, are fast hastening into the
arms of the Unitarians, who deny the divinity of Christ. ''They
went out from us ; but they were not of us ; for if they had been of
us, they would, no doubt, have remained with us, but that they may
be manifest that they are not all of us." I have already said some-
thing of the " monster," not merely " beast," but " monster," which
my friend attempted, like Prometheus, to form and steal fire from
heaven to animate, that he might call it " Apostolic Protestantism."
This, in our estimation, may be found to possess, some, at least, of
the characteristics of the Apocalyptic beast. But we should beg leave
to baptize it " Polypos" or " Legion." We could very satisfac-
torily shew that it has made war on the saints, and devoured them
by thousands, not to say millions ; that a portion of the beast so detains,
even now, when ligiit from heaven is breaking, millions of the saints,
of those who for the Confession of Jesus Christ and for conscience
take are reduced to a galling servitude, a poverty, and a degradation,
far worse than the lot of the negro, of the southern rice-fields.

My friend began by observing that symbolical language gives great
scope for the imagination. It sets us adrift upon a sea of speculation.
Is he ready to embark upon that sea 1 Are his sails trimmed 1 Is his
compass ready ? If the sad experience, to which 1 have alluded, has
not disinclined hitii to the voyage, I assure iiim that he will find it to
eventuate like that of the three wise men of Gotham, wliom our illus-
trious compatriot Washington Irving, sent to sea in a bowl. We may
drifi with every wind, and current, through a thousand perils, on this
wide ocean of iinaginalion. But, my friends, what has imagination to
do with this fitiestiotil She is a very good slave, but a very bad mis-
tress. CJive me full scope with your imagination and 1 can prove to
you any thing and every thing, until wo all are like the novel and ro-
mance writers of the present day — " /'« fmry ripe, in rrasim rotten.''^
Novels and romances are, confessedly, works of fiction. They are not
expected to contain reason, and therefore they escape censure. But
when men pretend to pass off their day-dreams for the oracles of Hea-
ven, they should renieinher the law o(' Deuteronomy, xiv. 5, " l/iat the
Priyphrl and forgrr if drnniis yhdll hr sliiin,''^ and if they fear not even
the fate of the false seer, at least, they HJiould apprehend the lash of
criticism and ridicule. I know in tliis goo<l city, a respectable dame,
who is not a Catholic, but who has written a ream of paper on the
Apocalyptic visions. I sngtrest to tny friend that he may pfissilily ga-
ther adflitional light on the Kuhjeet, hy eomp.iring notes wilh her. She
lias made il llie study of years, and on one occasion, as 1 am eri'dihiy
informed, under the influence of the text's inspiration, she camo into

240 DEBATE ON THB

chuTch, with the sun, moon, and stars pictured upon her dress, and
trailintr beneath her feet as she solemnly moved through the aisle.
You, sir, may have surpassed this lady in eloquence, ihouorh of that I
am not quite sure, but, certainly, she was a match for you, in imagina-
tion. My friend observed that the sun would go down, it would take
him a whole day, to shew the audience the rationale of the conceit with
which he has favored us — I could not help assenting to the gentle-
man's remark, and saying, in my mind, that it was even so — nay, that
it would take 3()5 days, before he could shew that there was amj thing
that was reasonable.

Southey observes that the " Romish church was, in the worst of
times, HOWEVER defiled, the salt of the earth, the sole conserva-
tive PRINCIPLE, BY which EuROPE WAS SAVED FROM THE LOWEST AND

MOST BRUTAL BARBARISM ;" and yet in the very face of this reluctant
tribute, by a firsi-rate Protestant historian, Mr. Campbell labors
to demonstrate that this very church was Anti-(/hrist ! He places
her on the Mediterranean, although it is a weary ride before you reach
her splendid domes and everlasting — maugre the liquifying — hills, on
which she sit«, in humble, if in queenly majesty. The Tiber, like its
namesake in the district, instead of being called a sea, may well be
called a " Goose creek'''' now.

My friend's Lexicography, Iconisms and Synchronisms, must have
all passed for argument strong as the rock of Gibraltar, in his own
opinion. It is unanswered and unanswerable. He says that God al-
ways by a beast, means some monster or other. Then .Tesus Christ
must be 'some monster or other,' for what is the cry of Heaven's Ju-
bilee at the end of all things'? '■'■Behold the '■Lion'' of the tribe nf Judah
hath prevailed ," and again — " Worthy was the Lamb that was slain,"
&c. &c. My friend would mf<ke a strange havoc with the language
and imagery of heaven — a curious monster of a Lamb and a Lion, than
which notwithstanding all he has said, I will force him to confess that
there can be nothing, as there is nothing, more beautiful than this en-
tire passage. The Evangelists are represented in the vision of Eze-
kiel as Beasts and Birds of prey. Are they too Anti-Christs'? Eng*
land has chosen the Rampant and Roaring Lion for her emblem. My
friend has praised and dispraised her. What portion of Anti-Christ,
of the man of sin, is she'^ She has persecuted — and I might with far
more truth say to her, what the martyred Robert Emmett said to Lord
Norbury, ^'' If all the innocent blood your ladyship has shed could be col-
lected into one great reservoir, your Ladyship might swim in it.'''' My
friend spoke of Elizabeth's long life. He did not say of how many
years she abridged the life of the '■^ Fair Queen of Scots." Politically,
intellectually, and morally, Rome, or if you will, the papacy was the
Savior of Europe, as all historians agree. How, then, could she be
the 'Beast?' It is preposterous. Why all this has been prophesied
and falsified, and prophesied and falsified again. Forty, or fifty years
ago, as my venerable friend there (Rev. Mr. Badin, the first priest or-
dained in the United States) can inform you, almanacs were published
in Kentucky, stating the precise day and minute, when the Hallelujah
was to be intoned for the Downfall of Babylon ! The day has passed,
and what of it? I have got a book here, which makes Napoleon Bo-
naparte the man of sin. Born on an Island, in the Mediterranean,
Corsica, deriving his power from the French Revolution, which affect-

ROMAK CATHOLIC RELIOIOX. 241

ed to crush Christianity, I'infame; which substituted decadi for Sa-
bath ; profaned temples: adored a vile woman in the temple of God,
immolated and expatriates! thousands upon thousands of priests, and
hoped that the last of kings mig-ht be strangled with the viscera of the
last of priests: plucked Pius VII. from the chair of St. Peter, drag-
ged the saints, the venerable monks by their beards, from the horns of
the altar, &c. &c. The Apocalypse is a sealed book, which God has
not vouchsafed to unfold to man. Better practise what we do know,
with certainty, of his adorable will, rather than blaspheme what we do
not understand. Meanwhile, if ever there was made a plausible appli-
cation of this mysterious prophecy, behold it in the rise, progress, and
arrest o£ Mahommedanism. The sea, or lake, the year 666, the war
on Christ and the saints; the sword and Koran; the watch-word Be-
lieve OR DIE, the conspiracy of Christendom during the crusades to
check its power, the gloriously disastrous battle of Lepanto, the pre-
sent crippled, but still formidable state of Islamism, all pictured so
vividly as almost to convince us that we have surely discovered the
object of the prediction. Let us read from Waddington. I shall make
a few brief pauses which you will fill up by appropriate reflections.
How few have understood the appalling dangers that this civil and
religious despotism of the Impostor of Mecca, threatened, during so
many ages, to Christianity and the world I

" I'hc seventh century was marked by the birth of a new and resolute adrer-
sary, who tiegan his career with the most stupendous triumphs, who has torn
from us the possession of lialf tlic worl I, and who retains his conquests even to
tfais moment. Mahomet was born about the year 570; we are ignorant of the pre-
cise period of the nativity of that man who wrought the most extraordinary re-
Volution in the affairs of this (^lobe, which the agency of any being merely hu-
man has ever yet accomplished. His pretended mission did not commence till
he was about forty years old, and the date of his celebrated flight from Mecca,
the Hedjirah, or era of Mahometan nations, is 622, A. D. The remainder of his
life was spent in establishing his religion and his authority in his native land, Ara-
bia; and the sword with which he finally completed that purpose, he bequeathed,
for the universal propagation of both, to his followers. His commission was
tealously executed; and, in less than a century after his death, his faith was un-
interruptedly extended by a chsiin of nations from India to the Atlantic.

The fate of Persia was decided by the battle of Cadesia, in 636. Fn Syria,
Damascus had already fallen, and after the saneuinary conflict of Yermuk, where
the Saracens for the first time encountered and overthrew n christian enemy, the
conquerors instantly proceeded to the nduction of Jerusali'in ; that grand reli-
gious triumph they obtained in 637. In the year followiiig Aleppo and Anti-
och fell into their haods, which completed the conquest of Syria. I'hencc they
proceederl nr>rthward as far as the shores of the Euxinc and the neighborhood of
Constantinople.

The invasion ofF.gypt took place in 63fl, and within the space of three years,
the whole of that populous province was in possession of the infidels. Afexan-
dria wa.s the last city which tiW; iind in somewhat more than a century after the
expulsion of philosophy from Kiirope by a christian legislator, the schools o(
Africa were closed in their turn by the arms of an unlettered Mnhomelnn.

The success of the SHracens was not inconsiderably promoted by the religious
dissenlions of their chriitian adversaries. A vast number of heretics who had
been oppressed and stigmatised by edicts and councils were scattered over the
surface of Asia; and these were contented to receive a foreign master, of whose
prinriples they were still ignorant, in the place of a tyrant whose iiijii*tice they
had experienced. Hut in I'.gypt, especially, the whole mass of the native popula-
tion was iinl'ortunately involved in thi- Jacobite heresy ; and few nt that lime
were found, except the reslrlent Greeks, who adhereil to the dortrihes of the
church. The followers of Kiityches formej an iiiimeiliate alliance with the sol-
diers of .Mahomet against n ('atholic prince; and they considered that there was
nothing unnatural in that act, since they hoped to secure for tbomsclres, under a

V 3r

'212 DKBATK ON THK

MHhointtan, the tolf ration which had l)'en refused by an orthodox |;oTei'nm«nt.
We iliould remark, however, that this hope, the pretext of tlieir desertion, was
with many the suggestion of their malice: that besides the recollection of wrongs,
Mnd the desire to escape or revenge them, thej were intlanied as furiously as
their persecutors hy tnat narrow sectarian spirit, which is commonly excited
n)ost keenly whore the difl'erenres are most trilling; and which, while it exagge-
rated the lines that separated them Irom their fellow christians, blinded them to
the broad gulf which divided all alike from the infidel.

From Kgvpt, the conquerors rushed along the northern shore of Africa; and
though their progress in that direction was interrupted by the domestic ditsen-
tions of the prophet's faiullv, even more than by the occasional vigor of the
christians, they were in possession of Carthage before the end of the seventh
century. Thence they proceeded westward, and after encountering some oppo-
sition irom the native IVloors, little either from the Greek or Vandal masters of
the country, they completed their conquests in the year 709.

Hitherto the Mahometans had gained no footing in Europe; and it may seem
sti-ange that the most western of its provinces should have been that which was
first exposed to their occupation. But the vicinity of Spain to their latest con-
quests, and the factious dissentions of its nobility, gave them an early opportu-
nity to attempt the subjugation ot that coimtry. 'I'heir success was almost unu-
sually rapid. In 711 they overthrew the Gothic monarchy by the victory of
Xeiebjand the two following years were suflicient to secure their dominion over
the greatest part of the peninsula.

The waters of this torrent were destined to proceed still a little further. Ten
years after the battle of Xcres, the Saracens crossed the Pyrenees and overran
with little opposition the southwestern provinces of France — ' the vineyards of
Gascony and the city Bourdeaux were possessed by the sovereign of Damas-
cus and Samarcand; and the south of France, from tlie mouth of the Garonne to
that of the Rhone, assumed the manners and religion of Arabia.' Still dissatisfied
with those ample limits, or impatient of any limit, these children of the desert
again marched forward into the centie of the kingdom. They were encamped
between Tours and Poictiers, when Charles Martel, the mayor, or duke of the.
Franks, encountered them. It is too much to assert that the fate of Christianity
depended upon the result of the battle which followed; but if victory had de-
clared for the Saracens, it would probably have secured to them in France the
same extent, perhaps the same duration, of authority which they pos3es.sed in
Spain. Next they wTjuld have carried the horrors of war and Islamism into Ger-
luany or Britain; but tliere, other fields must have been fought, against nations of
warriors as brave as the Franks, by an invader who was becoming less power-
ful and even less enthusiastic, as he advanced farther from the head of his resour-
ces and his faith." Waddingtoii's Church Hist, p'ge 135. New York tdit. 1835,

This is the tyranny fronn which tlie pope has saved us, and for it
civilization and religion owe him a debt which they will never be
able to repay.

My opponent ran a parallel between pagan and Catholic Rome.
Docs he not know that tlie pagan religion borrowed many of its es-
sential rites, and not a ff;w of its forms, from the indistinct knowl
edge of a primary revelation made to Adam and to the patriarchs,
and afterwards from the written law ? And might I not rim a more
perfect parallel between the Catholic and the Jewish institutions,
while the latter was divine ? The Catholics have a Pontifex Maxi-
mus, or High Priest; so had the Jews. The Catholics have a church
to guide the people ; the Jews had a synagogue for the same purpose.
The Catholics have a famous temple, to whose doctrine and worship
all must conform; so had the Jews. The Catholic pontiff enjoys some
temporal power; so did the Jewish pontiff. The Catholic pontiff sprin-
kles holy water on the people ; the Jewish pontiff sprinkled them with
the blood of a heifer, that was slain. The Catholic says, when re-
minded by the lustral water, emblematical of the blood of Christ, of
the power and mercy which can cleanse the stains of the conscience,
"Thou shalt sprinkle me, Lord, with hyssop, and I shall be cleans-

ROMAN CATHOLIC BELIOION. 243

ed ; thou shaltwash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow." Da-
vid also said, "Thou shalt sprinkle me, O Lord, with hyssop, and 1
Bhall be cleansed ; thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter
than snow." The Catholics have nuns; so had the Jews nuns, like
the prophetess Ann, who for "/owr score and four years departed not
from ike temple, by fastings and prayers during night and day .'' Luke,
xi. 36, 37. It is thus that his parallel crumbles! Lalcinos is not
the name of the Catholic church. The title that the pope assumes is
" sr.rvtts servorum Dei,''^ servant of the servants of God. The name
of Luther, Dioclesian, Julian, of the true God, himself, could be made
to tally with the numbers GG6 — see Robinson's Calmet, p. 71. I
could take letters out of the name of Alexander Campbell to mean
the same thing.

Mr. Campbell. — If you can, I will give up the argument. (A
laugh).

Bishop Plrcell. — What language must it be ? Hebrew, Syriac,
Greek, Latin or English? No matter. E is in some languages —
300— L is 50. —

Mr. Campbell. — You have not yet learned the numeral alphabet.
Bishop Purcell. — I cannot make the sum right off, but have a
little patience with me and I will pay you all. (A laugh. — The au-
dience having composed themselves at the request of the Moderators,
Bishop Purcell proceeded.) Thus, you see, my friends, the name of
my friend helps us in this matter, for it is the name of a man, and the
name of a beast, too, with a hunch on its back, when wc can find the
lacking numerals to decipher him. He has made a certain admission,
after having denied it all the week, that the apostles founded llie se«
of Rome. This shows that the truth ivill prevail, and that my friend
will laugh in his sleeve at you, if you believe all his fanciful and ro-
mancing conjectures about the man if sin. Again — another contra-
diction." If all that blood is to be shed, in the exarchate of Raven-
na, we are here, in Ohio, and safe enough from the danger under our
happy constitution. — Wc need have no fear of being cruslied binealh
the fragments of that crazy and tottering chair, the nope is sitting in
BO uneasily ; the very rumblings of the volcanic hills will die, and
their last echoes be inaudible on this side of the Athmtir, and as
the Apocalyptic magician has i)oinl<<l his wand, to the dilapidated
jaws of the Beast, the conclusion is plain, that, as he has lost all his
teeth, he can't hite ! we need not be afraid of hi'u.

We are told the pope suffers himself to be adored, and calls liim-
self God. 8o far from this, we have seen how lie humbles hiinsidf l)e-
forethe altar, bow he prays llu; humblest of the saints [n pray for liim
to God, and how he has had a prayer inscrilx'd in our church liturgy,
whpreby we ask of God to preserve him from all evil, especially froin
the worm of all evils, sin. Hoes this look like exalting hiinscH above
every thing that is railed (Jod ? The present po|)e is said to be r)no
of the best of men. The only faults alleged against him are that he gives
employment to a large number of poor tradesmen, relmilding the
burned church of St. Paul — and that ho /a/it^ sm// Komewlial jirofuae-
Iv. I wish every nne here had as little to answer for.

Much has been naid about the gold and silver of the Vatican. My
friend, I am stiro, know* thai money is a neccinary evil. If we all had
a little morn of it, wc might purchase heaven with the mammon of ini-
quity ; but the pope ifl now poor. If I am rightly informed, his trea-

241 DEBATE ON THK

8UTy is drained. He has fortunately, or unfortunately, lost this mark
of the beast, if it be one. But my worthy opponent has overlooked
this remarkable fact. Judea abounded in (toUI ; St. Peter's, in Rome,
was never eovered all over, like the temple of .lerusaloni, with plates
of gold. When Titus besieged Jerusalem, the Jews swallowed their
gold to hide it from their rapacious conquerors — and this was made a
new incident in the dreadful vengeance of heaven upon that deicidal
people, for the soldiers, in quest of gold, rijtped open the bodies of
the ill-fated victims whom famine, or the arrow, had precipitated from
the ramparts. After the sacking of Jerusalem, so great was the quan-
tity of gold obtained in it, that gold fell, in sterling value, throughout
the Roman empire. This would prove, that Jerosalem was the beast.
How vain are all the gentleman's eloquent remarks. Not one of these
marks is peculiar to Rome, while many of them are not applicable to
her at all. I will say nothing about the millstone; it went to the
bottom, and so did the gentleman's argument.

My friends, I have one or two arguments to borrow from a very dis-
tinguished Catholic writer, Dr. Lingard, author of the history of Eng-
land. We shall see whether my friend has any of the symptoms of
mania here so graphically described.

" Duriiij^ llie loiig^ lapse ot more lli;iii lit'teen cenfurie-s, the tisiansof the apos-
tle St. Joiin had been eiivtloped in the thickest obscurity. At tlie era of the re-
formation, a strong ray of apocalyptic light dissipated the clouds which popery
had raised: and since tliat period every old woman, of either gender, has been
able to unravel wilh ease the web of mystery, and to reveal to the world the
true meaning of the book of Revelations. From the days of Luther to the pres-
ent, we have possessed a numerous and uninterrupted succession of translators*
lecturers, expositors, and annotators, who may truly be said to have seen vis-
ions, and to have dreamed dreams; and, lest by some mishap the pious race
•hould become extinct, Bishop Warburton has left a fund for the support or the
reward of the more fiery among its members.* I may admire his zeal, but not
his wisdom. He probably did not see that he was thus endeavoring to diffuse
and perpetuate an alarnnng species of intellectual disease, which, for the sake
of distinction, I shall beg leave to call the apocalyptic mania. It has not, indeed,
been hitherto classed in any system of nosology, but it is not on that account
less real, or less general; ancl, I trust, I shall confer a benefit on the public by
proceeding to pomt out the origin, and to describe the symptoms of this the*
ological malady.

When " the magnanimous fathers of the reformation" broke from the com-
munion of the Catholic church, they found it convenient to justify their schism,

by pleading that the Pope was Antichrist, and Rome the scarlet w of

Babylon. This doctrine, while It inflamed the bigotry, flattered the spiritual
pride of their disciples; with conscious superiority of birth, they sought in the
apocalypse for proof of the ignominious descent of their opponents, and their
lacrilegious familiarity with the mysterious volume, quickly produced the
disease, which is the "subject of the present observations. Its progress was
rapid. It soon pervaded every department in life; but its most distinguish-
ed victims were, and still are, chosen from among those churchmen, who,
from the instructions of the nursery or the university, have imbibed a lively
dread of the horrors of popery. The mania first manifests itself by a restless
anxiety respecting the future fortunes of the church, and a strong attachnient to
prophetic hieroglyphics: the antichrfst, and the man of sin; the beast with (en
horns, and the beast with two horns; the armies of Gog and Magog; the fall of
Babylon, and the arrival of the millennium, become the favorite, the only sub-
ject's of study; false and ridiculous perceptions amuse the imagination ; the
judgment is gradually enfeebled, and, at last, the most powerful minds sink into
the imbecility of childhood. Of the truth of this desciiption we have a melan-

• According to his will, an annual seiioon is preaebcU in Lincoln's Inn Chapel, to prove
t^» Po^ to Ira Autichri3t, &c. &c.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 245

choly proof in the great Sir Isaac jVewton. To him Nature seemed to have un-
locked her choicest secrets: as a philosopher he was and is still unrivalled: but
no sooner did he direct his telescope /roni the inotioiis of the heavenly bodies
to the visions in the apocalypse, tlia:! his head grew dizzy, the downfall of pope-
ry danced before his eyes, and he hazarded predictions which on the scale of
prophets, have phiced hiui far beneath the well known Francis Moore, physician
and almanac-inakcr.

It should be observed, that this intellectual malady, like the other species of
mania, assumes a thousand diflerent shapes, according to the predispositions of
the subject which it attacks. I shall produce a few instances. In 1789, Mr.
Cook published a translation of the apocalypse, with keys to open its meaning
to his readers. This reverend gentleman was Greek professor in the universi-
ty at Cambridge; and, as his reading naturally led him to the Greek poets, he
was determined that the author of the apocalypse should be a poet, and, more-
over, the rival of Sophocles. In his opmion, the apocalvpse is a tragedy form-
ed on the same plan as the (Edipus Tyrannus. "Thedran)a opens with the
temple scene; the seals, the trumpet, and the vials unfold the plot; and though
the antichrist does not die, no more than (Edipus, yet he falls into such calami-
ty as makes him an object of pity, and justifies the lamentations pronounced on
bis downfall." JVor is this all. By trying one of his apocalyptic keys on the
Odyssey of Homer, he has discovered that poem also to have been inspired, and
infornis us that the suitors of Penelope represent the vassals of poperv, who, un-
der the pretence of courting the bride, the christian church, devour all the good
things in her house, till Christ, the true Ulysses, the o^of ""ost or safe way, ar-
rives, and wreaks his vengeance on them.

In Mr. Granville Sharp, the favorite apocalyptic Nostrsfdamus of the Rector
of Kewnton Longville, (Le Messreply, p. 193, 202,) the mania has shewn itself
io a dilTurent manner. This gentleman is known to be singularly partial to mo-
nosyllables. He has written a volume on the Hebrew letter vau, and another on
the Greek articles, o, m, to. From letters and articles, he was induced, by his
previous success and the importunity of his friends to proceed to the e,\plica-
tion of the visions in the book of Revelations. Here the apocaly[)tic mania soon
discovered itself: but the appearance of the disease was modified by his pre-
vious habits of monosyllabic investigation. He convinced himself that the name
of the beast was Latcinos, and that Lateinos must signify the Latin church. The
proof is curious. Lateinos, lie contends, is derived from thu llcbrtw monosyl-
lable LAT, which means to cover or conceal. iS'ow the Latin church, in the
celebration of the mass, conceals some of the prayers from tlie j)eopli-, by order-
ing them to be pronounced with a low voice: therefore the Latin church is La-
teinos, the beast in tiie apr)calypse. Moreover the head of the Latin church resides
in the palace of the Lateran, a iiami: derived from the same monosyllabic L.\T:
and the Lateran palace is situated in the cr>unlry anciently called L!itium,an ap-
pellation also derived from the same monosyllabic Lat; and Latiiim is a province
of tiiat part of F.iirope called Italy, which also derives its name from the same
fUOno'iylLtble I/AT. Fie not startled, gentle readi r; iipocalyjitic maniacs can
with equal I'arility read backwards or forwards; and Mr. Sliarn informs us, that,
if we read Italy backwards, we shall have Vlali, in tin iiiidit ot which is the He-
brew iiionosyllable LAT. JVaviget Antic^raiiil

Were I to describe all the varieties o( the disease, thc'sc obsiTvations would
swell to an uniiieasurable bulk. I shall tliirefure content myni'lf with noticing
the prophetic, which is iierhaps the most prevalent, upccies. V^'llell the mind is
seized with this mania, the re;^ion« of futurity are instantly opened to its sight: it
can point out the date and nature of every event which is to happen; it can in-
form US in what year popery, Muhaiiiiiicdism, and iiifuUlily are to perish; when
and where antichrist u to Ije born, reign, ami dir; who is to reslorf the Holy
Land to the Ji w»; and in what ) < iir the new Jerusalem is to descend (roni heaven.
It is in rain that preceding prophets liavi' fre(|uently oiitlivi-d tlifir own jircdic-
lions; tin- hitons of experience are heard with coiiteinpt : and eiii h luw seer is
convinced of the truth of his own visirnis. Anions thoitr who hnvi- pnllireil Inte-
Ir under thi< form of the disease, the most cliKtinguished are Mr. \Vliital(rr niiH
Mr. Faber, both scholars of extin«ive rrudition, nnil botli cfninlly nniinnlrd
•gainst the Church of Komr. 'I'hcy both ni;rri- that Liithrr i«thr nii;;rl with the
everlasting gospel; and, if by his gospel they ineiin the •olifidinn doctrine alrea-
dy Daticed, they have a chance to be right. It may justly be called everlasting;
V 2

246 DEBATE ON TUB

for it will probably find proselytes as long; as man shall dwell on the earth. Mr.
Whilaker discovers that the two horns o( tlie beast arc the two monastic orders
of the Dominicans and Franciscans. Why they should claim the preference be-
fore their brethren, of greater anti(|uity, or more griural difl'usion, I know not;
but it is certainly unfortunate that the beast has not four horns: then you, ye
sons of Benedict and Loyola, might have had the honor of being seatecf on the
remaining two. The »ame gentleman informs us that the Ottoman empire will
soon fall, Rome be wrested from the pope, and the seat of the papacy be trans-
ferred to Jerusalem. Mr. I'aber makes an c(|ual display of erudition; but the
third angel, Mr. Whitaker's Zuingle, he has placed in a most uncomfortable situa-
tion: he has bound him fast in the midst of the ocean, and transformed him into
the insular church q/' England! Nor does he always agree with his rival in more
important points. The two beasts he shews to be tne two contemporary Ro-
man empires, temporal and spiritual, under the emperors and the popes: and
gives his reatlcrs the pleasing intelligence, that both tlie Turk and the Pope will
expire in the year 1868. Though he does not expect to witness this happy event
himself, yet he has the goodness to promise a sight of it to many of the present
generation:

£i triOV XxK^Xi ^XVTIUiTKl, Hi XXI VXl.

Unfortunately for these two prophets, each disputed the accuracy of the pre-
dictions of his rival: an animated controversy tbilowcd; and the result has been
a conviction in the minds of most of their readers, that each has completely suc-
ceeded in demolishing the system of his adversary, and completely failed in estab-
lishing his own.

Thus have I attempted to describe the diflferent symptoms of this disease; but
I hope I shall be excused from indicating the method of cure. When the mania
has once obtained possession of the brain, I doubt whether three Anticyrae would
be sutlicient to expel it. I would rather, like Dr. Trotter in his treatise on the
nervous temperament, endeavor to correct that predisposition which natu-
rally leads to it. I would advise the Protestant theologian to suspend, for a while
at least, his assent to some of those doctrines, which education has taught him
to revere as sacred. I would have him learn to doubt whether it be certain, that
a long succession of bishops, through many centuries, can be that one individual
described by St. Paul as the man of sin: or that the church, from which almost
all other churches have received the knowledge of the gospel is, " the great
mother of harlots," and the kingdom of Antichrist. I would recommend to him,
if he must decipher the apocalyptic hieroglyphics, to attend to the solenm assev-
eration of their author, which is frequently repeated both in the first and the last
chapters, that his predictions were, even at the time in which he wrote, on the
point of beino; fulfilled. In the destruction of Jerusalem, and the first period of
the christian history, he may find enough to exercise his ingenuity, and may per-
haps stumble on the only clue which can lead to the solution of the dilficuities
contained in this mysterious volume. I am aware that what I ask, will not readily
be granted to me. The doctrine that popery is the beast, the pope antichrist,
and christian Rome the whore of Fsabylon, is, I know, an im|)ortant part of the
new gospel preached by Luther and his associates: it forms, to use the words of a
learned prelate,* "a primary pillar of the reformed faith." But when I con-
sider the dangerous consecjuences of this doctrine, its deleterious eflecfs on the
judgment of some among the most distinguished writers of the Protestant com-
munion, the ridicule which it serves to throw on the inspired writings, and the
handle which it gives to the sneers and contempt of the professed infidel, I in-
dulge a well-founded hope that, for the sake of religion and humanity, it will
meet with little support from the enlightened characters, who now preside in
the established church. If it once formed a pillar of the reformation, I conceive
it could only be a temporary support, which may now be removed without dan-
ger to the fabric. To the pious fraud, from its utility, the first reformers might
easily reconcile their consciences; at the present dav it may be rejected by their
luccessors with some credit: it cannot be retained without disgrace.

♦ Watson's Theologirai Tracts, vol. v. p. 7.

ROMAN CATUOLIC BELIOION. 247

Half-past 11 o'clock, A. M.
Mr. Campbell rise? —

The bishop has not given one but many and various proofs of the
truth of an adage of some currency and authority. Napoleon in his
flight from Moscow, musing on recent disasters, often uttered this ex-

firession : " There is but one short step from the sublime to the ridicu-
ous." I never before witnessed so illustrious a proof of the invin-
cible force of the argument from prophecy. I looked at the gentle-
man writhing under the accumulating evidence, amounting almost to
demonstration, that I had asserted no defamation in my fourth propo-
sition. Instead of meeting the subject with scripture and argument,
like the scuttle fish, he darkens the waters that he may escape the
eye and the hand of his pursuer. His effort at mystification is as
ridiculous as it is imbecile. He invokes the assistance of some old
lady to create a laugh ; but the audience has got tired laughing at his
manoeuvres. The subject is two grave, and the audience loo deeply
penetrated with the awful truth which they had just heard to be amus-
ed by such levity. Failing so manifestly, in the attempt to disparage
all use of the prophecies, he undertakes to explain. He is driven
into Asia to the Koran, and to Mecca for the man of sin ! How have
the weapons of war perished ! Facts are not found in the history of
Mahomet or Mahometanism, to explain these prophecies : and conscious
of this, his own courage fails, and a second time he resorts to ridicule.
As Voltaire, Volney, and other wits, have fruitlessly attempted to
laugh Christianity out of countenance, he endeavors to place the whole
matter before you as idle and absurd. Could my rhetorical and ingen-
ious opponent afford more unequivocal manifestations of confusion and
dismay, than you have now witnessed 1 But, my friends, we are not
to be laughed out of onr argument, that stands before us like the rock
of Gibraltar. The waves that strike it, but foam out their imbecility,
and are broken to pieces. He may, indeed, torture his ingenuity to
escape from an argument, which he dare not, which he cannot meet ;
but he will torture it in vain.

The effort of my opponent has been as much to disparage prophecy
itself, as any mode of inteqireting it. According to him, prophecy
is no gift: On our principles, it is at least as useful and interesting
as history. It is one of the kindest boons of heaven, thai we an- per-
mitted sometimes to peep into tin: future, guided by the lamp of eier-
nity. The whole Hible, is for the most part, history ami prophecy.
It is almost all history, for prophecy is the history of the future. Cod
never held the iniinau family in suspense respecting their vital inter-
est-s. Their origin, duty, and destiny, tie has eiiualiy regarded in all
his communicationK. Soon as our first parents had transgressed in
Eden, he permitted not one sun to go down, till he appeared to them
and revealed a portion of his purposes. In a single period he con-
denses a miniaturfr vi<!W of the future destinies of mankind : " I will
place enmity," said he to the ser()ent, " lietween thy sec^d and her
seed : it shall !)ruise thy liea<l, an<l thou slialt bruise his heel." I
thank our Heavenly Father, that he has thus from the begiimiiig vouch-
safed to his children something of tlir- future. Indeed, so abundant
are his revelations, his i)romises which are all prophc-cies, and his
prophecies which all threaten or |>romise, that there is scarce a single
page of the whole Uible without a proj)hecy inscribed upon it. Cer-

248 DEBATE ON THE

tainly my opponent has forgotten this ! Has he not, according to his
ability, been turning into ridicule prophecy itself, the Bible itself
God's orood and perfect gift? But if prophecy be wholly unintelli-
gible ; Why, I ask, should it constitute so large a portion of God's
only book to man T But I will not farther debate this question. The
gentleman himself would admit all this, on any other occasion.

I did not intend, indeed, and I am sorry I proposed, an argument of
this kind before such an assembly, limited as I am at present to an
hour or two, at most to complete it. If my opponent would devote
with me a day or two to this subject, I might even satisfy himself,
not only that prophecy is a gift, an intelligent gift ; but that much of
it pertains to the origin, progress, and catastrophe of that very hierar-
chy, of which he is himself a member.

There are two kinds of maps in schools ; one gives both the place
and the name of it, the other (sometimes called a blank map,) gives
the place without the name. The former represents history ; the lat-
ter, prophecy. Prophecy is as coaect a map of the future, as histo-
ry is of the past ; but it is not always quite so obvious. I have taught
geography with these two sorts of maps.^ The pupil studied on that
inscribed with the names of the places, and we examined him on the
blank map. The study of fulfilled prophecy, with the history of the
past, prepares us for the blank map, the outline of the future. On
the blank map, we can learn the great outline of things — their rela-
tive positions, distances and magnitudes. We may sometimes err, in
fixing the proper name on every place : but we cannot greatly err, in
forming a useful acquaintance with the whole ; especially, having a
correct knowledge of what is past, or of certain portions of the past,
which must ever be a key to the future. * Thus we can acquire a clear
and satisfactory outline of the vast expanse of future time, although
we may, sometimes, err in a date, or in the name of a particular place,
person, or thing.

But as my opponent has so perfectly failed to meet my argument;
I shall have to give it to the public without much amplification or
proof. I will, therefore, recapitulate, emphatically, a few of the
grand land marks ; and

1. The two tyrannies mentioned in Daniel and John, arose out of
the great sea, the Mediterranean ; or, from among the nations border-
ing thereon, in a state of tumult. Does not Rome stand on these wa-
ters ; and is not Italy almost surrounded by them 1 'J'he Tiber itself,
inconsiderable as it is, is nevertheless, a part of this very sea. This
beast came not from the deserts of Arabia ; nor from the Pacific, nor
the Atlantic ; but from the Mediterranean.

2. The origin or commencement of these two despotisms, or of the
symbolic beasts of Daniel and John, exactly synchronize. They were
contemporaries : indeed, they are identical. They both rise at the
same time and place.

3. They are co-existent, and continue the same time, 1260 years.

4. The types, in both pictures, or the grand incidents and charac-
teristics, are the same.

5. Their latter end is the same. There is, indeed, no argument on
this subject : it is as plain as history. My opponent will never debate
it. Paul occupies the place of a commentator or interpretator, and
without a figure explains the mystery of iniquity. He avers the im-
possibility of the appearance of this monster, this papal hierarchy, so

BOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 249

long as pagan Romp, which then hindered a pope, should continue to
hinder. All commentators understand, " he that lets," as referring to
pagan Rome. We have already seen, that we could not find a pope
before the time of Phocas the usurper, and Bonifice III. No politico-
ecclesiastic communion of nations, under a ghostly monarchy, ever
stood on earth before that day.

Paul speaks of the temple of God, ns the residence of this mammoth
antagonist power. It was not in a pure church he appeared, and, cer-
tainly it was not among the pagan Arabs, that this man of idolatry (for
such is the import of sin in this passage) showed his blasphemous face.

I said not, that there was no church of God at Rome, before the pa-
pacy. If there never had been a true church of God, at Rome; the papacy,
or the man of sin, never could have been born tliere. For, be it ob-
ser»red, emphatically, the man of sin is not a pagan, a Turk, a pro-
fessed infidel ; but, an apostate Christian.

Does not the pope of Rome, and none but the pope of Rome, fill up
all the grand lineaments of this painting] He exalts himself above
all tliat is called a god — a magistrate, a pagan god ; nay, above God
himself: tor no false God, nor the only living and true God, proposed
to forgive sins before they were committed ! His name is covered
with blasphemy. There never stood on earth such a monster; look-
ing like a lamb, and speaking like a dragon. I need not, however,
repeat what has not been contradicted.

.My argument is unanswered. I regret that it must go to the public,
without being more fully tested. As to Lateinos, the gentleman may
laugh at it ; but can he show state or empire, whose name like that of
He Lattiie Basikia, will spell 666 T If he cannot, this alone ought to
check his opposition.

My opponent did me great honor, in giving me such a colleague as
Sir Isaac Newton, to bear half the brunt of his indignation. Greater
literary and ecclesiastic names, than that of this great philosopher, and
brighter stars in universal knowledge, adorn those prophetic heavens,
and conceiiirat*! their light upon this map, which I liave traced so hastily
and imperfectly. What, if I should let the gentleman see a star of the
first magnitude, or hear an archdeacon, in his own church, say a word
on Babylon, and on the woman that sits on many waters !

" Who can tlurc s.-ifdy live, wlicre not only wirkrd things arc lawful, but*!!
men arc roni|)<:llc(l \ty the »er\«ri st piiniahnients to Ixlitvr, H|)«nk, anil follow the
most wickfrd an;i uw^wWy thin^<; and to enibnirr \.\\vm as th'inf;<t junt nnd lauda-
ble; wherr they do not only mil receive sound doctrine, hut hitKrIy pcrsrcute
•II those who do resist tint niadnejD of their will? I • • •

• What is It, think ^ou, to be drunk with the cup of Babylon, but froin

lon^ conversation with lier to he so infertc d with the ronlugion of lier, that, fol-
lowing^ the errin<f hr-rd, von willinf^ly embrace false things for true; perver»e for
righteous, Iliad tliin;;s for sound; nnd lo detire ratfier to h<' nind with the multi-
tude, than lo he wise alone with danpr«r and derision? He tlint is (hlleniit in man-
ners from thirm, ought not to live there, where the plague of rorruption hath lo
prevailed as to iiihrt all men with Its contagion." JVVc/io/aw* de ('lemattgit.
Episl. p. 177.

In his book of Simoniaeal Prelalea, ho says, cap. 1.

"The rhurrh i« now beroiiie a shop of iiierrliandize, or rather of robbery anH
rapine; in whirh all the sarranients are expood to sale. ■ • And

therefore, vou see siirli men admitted to the priesthoml nnd othf r hoi)- ordert,
who arc idiot*, unlearned, and srarre able (o read, th'ni^h wavwnrdlv, nnd with-
out understanding one salable after another, who know no more I.ntin, than
they do Arabic, who, wfien they read, pray, or sing, know not, whether they
bless God or blaiphcwe hiiu — men undisciplined, unquiet, gluttoni, dninkards,

250 DEBATE o.^ Tna

prater*, ra<::abond», lustlul, bred up in luxury, and in one word, idle and igfuorant."

In his book of the corrupt state of the church, cap. 3.

"That Bhe w;is ileiiled with the sink of ail vices; and might be fitly called the
church if JUaliffyuinli; tliat tiie saying of llie prophet was now verified, that
from ihc least o/'lhcm to (lic furcates I, e\ cry one was given to covetousness; that
from the propliet to the priest, every one dealt falsely. * » » «

Who preaches or declares the gospel? Who either by word or deed shews the
way to life tternal .*''

Aorain :

" \Vha( should I speak, (saith he) of the learning of the priests, when it is visible
that scarce any of them can read 7 They know not words, and much less things:
he of them that prayeth, is a barbarian to himself. If any man is idle and ab-
hors labor, if he loves luxury, he gets novv-a-days into the clergy, and then
presently he joins himself to the rest of the priests that are voluptuous, and live
according to Epicurus, rather than according to the laws of Christ. Cap. 25.

" Such (saith he) is the abundance of wicked men in all professions, that there
is scarcely one among a thousand, who sincerely doth what his profession doth
require; if there be any sincere, chaste, sober, frugal person, in any college or
convent, who doth not walk in the broad way, he is made a ridiculous fable to the
rest, and is continually culled insolent, mad, and hypocritical fellovv; so that
many who would have been good, had they lived with good and honest men,
are drawn by wicked company into their vices, lest they should suffer the fore-
mentioned reproaches among tiieir companions." Cap. 26.

He then concludes with an apostrophe to the Roman church, as
follows :

"What thiiikest thou of thine own propiiecy, the Revelations of St. John?
Dost thou not think they do at least, in part, belong to thee? Thou hast not
surely so wholly lost all shame as to deny this: look, therefore, into it, and read
the damnation of (his g'reat rohore, sitting upon many waters, and then contemplate
thy famous facts and future ruin." Deciarat. Defect. Virorum Eccl.

So testifies Nicolaus de Clemaugis, an archdeacon of the church of
Rome, in the fifteenth century.

Not only have the sins of Sodom and Egypt been multiplied in this
Babylon the great, but she had superadded to these the blood-guilti-
ness and cruelty of Jerusalem. Persecution is of the very essence
and spirit of the supremacy, not merely as the martyred millions of
Protestants, of every age, declare ; but according to the doctrine of the
church, and the oaths of her bishops. Every Roman Catholic bishop
is sworn to persecute heretics and schismatics : even this very gentle-
man has sworn to persecute and oppose heretics and schismatics to the utmost
of his power. This is no mere allegation. I will hereafter produce
the oath, and if it can be otherwise explained, I shall give him an op-
portunity to do it. Till then, I proceed to allege, further, that learned
Roman Catholics have tremblingly interpreted these prophecies, as
belonging to Rome papal. I have another witness here, in confirma-
tion of my speech, and with his testimony I shall close these remarks,
and proceed.

" Whence is it that tliis happened? to vnt, because all llesli had corrupted its
ways, we were all citizens and inhabitants not of the holy city Rome, that
wicked city; of which that of the prophet Isaiah is fulfilled, "How is the faithful
city become a harlot." Lf-t no man tiiinkthis prophecy has been fulfilled already
in the destruction of Babvlon, or Jerusalem. No! future things were present to •
the prophet's eye, and this the prophet hath declared to us. saying, " the daugh-
ter of Zion shall be left desolate, as in the wasting of the enemy. St. John
doth in the Revelations tell us, the daughter of Zion is not Jerusalem, but Rome;
and his description of her makes it plain: For the woman which thou sawest
(saith he) is tliat great city which hatn dominion over the kings of the earth,
that is spiritual dominion. She sits, saith he, upon seven hills, which properly
agrees to Rome, which u|)on this account, is styled septicolis. She is full, saith
lie, of the names of blasphemy — she is the niotheV of uncleanness, fornications.

eoma:* catholic eeuoiox 251

and abomlnations.which are in the earth; than which words, no mart particular
demonstration of the city can be requisite, seeing these iniquities do olniost gen-
erally reign, yet here they have their seat and empire." Orat. habit, ad auditores
Rotar. Mali 15, A. D.

My friend is again on celibacy. But, really, I cannot return to
these matters as often as he chooses to explain away, or deny, or
otherwise dispose of, his own sayings and concessions. In this mat-
ter, as in a hundred others, it might suffice to show, that he differs
from both Peter and Paul, and all. the other apostles. For, as an
apostle of Christ, Paul says of himself and Barnabas, that they had a
right to have wives, ^^ sister-wives,^'' as well as the other apostles. In
this way Paul proves the point : " Have we not power to load about
with us a wife, as the other apostles have ] Or, are Barnabas and my-
self debarred this privileged" Such is the spirit and point of that
passage ; and excepting in time of public calamity, as Paul elsewhere
teaches, " Let every man have his own wife, and every woman her own
husband." So we teach.

The bishop owes an apology for speaking on a subject, which I
did not introduce for discussion. The whole merits of auricular con-
fession is not the question ; but the simple fact, that it is a tenet of the
party, growing out of a human rule of divine faith. I introduced it, to
be admitted or denied ; not now to be debated. The same is true of
transubstanliation. I introduced these institutions, as proof of the im-
moral nature and tendency of the Romanist rule of faith. I think it
almost enough to have these doctrines or institutions acknowledged in
this age and country, to prove that Roman Catholicism is not suscep-
tible of reformation ; and would be the same in this community as in
Spain, Italy, or Portugal, under similar circumstances. My friend
had the opportunity of a simple denial of these items at the moment,
if they were not parts of his system ; and he may have the full dis-
cussion of them again.

On the subject of confession, one word as to the quotations from
Episcopalians and Methodists. Would the gentleman wish you to
understand, that auricular confession is an ordinancf of those religious
communities, as taught and |)ractisod in his ehurcli ] If he does not,
where is the relevancy of these quotations! If he dors, wh<'re is tho
truth and candor] " Confess your/«ii//s to one another," will justify
any two or more persons mutually to confess to each other, and to pray
for one another ; but will he affirm, that Methodists and lOpiscopaiians
say to one another, "I absolve thee," at their mutual confessions? I
Why, then, I ask, seek to make Episcopalians and Methodists boar a
part of the sharnc of these unscriptural and sinful practices? They
disavow them : they would say to (Tic bishop, conless your faults to
us, and we will confess to you; hut on no oilier condition. We may
pray for you; we cannot forgive you. You may ])ray fur us; but you
cannot forgive us. I must, on this j)oint, read you another extract
from Smith's Synopsis of the works of Ligori, that you may sec what
justice my opponent renders to EpiRcopalians and Sirthodists, in his
alliancing them with himself on the suhjert of confession ;

" 1 he >di(il rontiiiuct thuit: St. I'hilip iVrriiM tiled to t> II lii< jiriiitinl*, that
they who dr»ire to projjrrM in thr way ol (Jod ulioiild tiiliiiiit tfiriim lv( « to •
Itarnedeorf Mtor, whom th«-y ihuiild obry at God. [ It tliii Mrtliodiiiii M llr nlio
thui actl will be ttmrr from Imvinf; to rrndrr Qri urcouiil of iny of hii ■rtiolii.
A ConftMor niuit br lirlicvpfj, bcraufc God will not iudsr him to err. Nothing
is (afer than to follow the will of oae'i dir«clor, aud uotliiag ii more daofcrout

J252 DEBATE OX THE

than to be directed by one's own iudgnient. [Is this Episcopal'.anisni?] " If,"
continues I-igoii, quoting from Gbssii, " a couiniandnunt bt doubtful, he who
acts in obedience to his confesaor is excused iVoin sin, although in truth, what
he does is sinful." [Is this Metliodisiu?] Quoting (lO'-u St. Dionysius, he has
the I'ollowing: " If there be o doubt whether what one is about to do is against
the coniniairdnient of God, we must obey the romniandment of our y)rt/a/e,"
(bishop, priest or confessor,) " because, although what we do be against God,
nevertheless, on account of the virtue of obedience, we being subject to our
prelates do not sin." [Is this Kpiscopalianism?] — Id. ib.

" Let the confessor,' continues the saint, "strenuously insist upon the peni-
tent's obeying him, and if he refuses to obey, let him be sharply rebuked, be
deprived of communion, and let his obduracy be blunted as much as possible." —
Id. ib. N. 16. [Time expired.]

Twelve o'clock, M.
Bishop Purcell rises —

It was not heaven's holy oracles, but man's presumptuous freedom
with the word of God, that I ridiculed. It was my friend who ex-
posed the holy record to contempt; and afforded to infidels occasion
for triumph and insult, by forcing upon it his own preposterous inter-
pretations, and making it say wliat its divine Author never intended it
to say. I tell him again, in the very words of that sacred book, that
" no prophecy if scripture is of any private inlerprciulioit ,•" that these
blind who are '• leaders if the blind,'' and that " both fall into the pit i"
Matthew xv. 14. that, as Peter says, there are many things in the scrip-
tuns which my friend says are so very plain, hard to he nnderstood, which
the unlearned and uns'able icrest, as they do also the other scriptures to
their own destruction .- 2d Peter, ch. iii. v. IG ; finally, that "as there
were false prophets among the people, even so shall there be lying
teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who
bought them, bringing on themselvrs swift destruction, and many shall
follow thfir riotousncss, through whom the way of truth shall be evil
spoken of." Having exposed tlie scriptures, our le^.rncd friend gave
us a smart lesson in geography and chronology, proving, at least, one
point to my satisfaction, if not to his own, that we may err in a date,
place, person, or thing, the which he veritably hath done in his sym-
bolical dissertation. T may, but I will not, apply to him the figure of
Isaiah, "he has broken the eggs of asps, and may cat them; he hath
woven the ."spider's web, and may clothe himself with the filmy tex-
ture." Isaiah lix. 5. The fragile egg and filmy texture are proper
emblems of fickleness, inconstancy, and change of religion ; but in
ours there is neither mutability nor "shadow of vicissitude."

ISIy friend has taken us a fishing again; llic sea monster has dis-
colored the waters, and like the w^olf and lamb in the fable, he cliarges
upon me the troubling of the stream. There is no escape for tho
gentleman, '' I absolve tht<V are the very words of the Episcopalian
ritual in England ; and private and particular confession is practised
by the Metluidists in the United States. Even he, himself, admits
that the words "confess your sins to one another," will justify
(St. James and christians, ought to be much obliged to him.)
any two, or more, to confess to one another! What, then, does he
mean by denying and admitting, rejecting and adopting, every creed
and practice alternatclv 1 He blows hot and cold with the same
breath. St. Philip Ne'riu's gave wise directions on the decalogue,
and shewed that God, himself, could not authorize a violation of his
own laws, much less a confessor. Hence his advice—" obey your

roma:? catholic religion. 253

covfessor as Cod,'''' was perfectly intelligible. I wish my friend would
study the saint's life, and he would find in it maxims and examples
well worthy of imitation, and nothing that could scandalize him.

My argument upon the subject of confession was perfectly pertinent ;
and the gentleman felt it — hinc illx lachrymso, — hence his charge of
irrelevancy. It was elaborately argued by him, that the practice was
immoral, and it behoved me to vindicate it, as I have done, by prov-
ing that it was authorized and commanded by scripture, practised by
the early church in its purity, and advocated by two of the most nu-
merous and respectable sects, viz. Episcopalians and Methodists.
Now, if my friend sajs, that persons in those communions never go
to confession, according to the discipline and ritual, it only proves
their inconsistency. Priests and bishops do confess, and that fre-

3uently. The more pious and sincere they are, the more faithfully
o they comply with the salutary ordinance.
We do not dissuade young people from marrying, we only regret
that those who arc called to that state, do not marry faster. What is
the object of all that tirade of abusive extracts against the Catholic
church? Must I have to read dissertations to my opponent on all the
humbugs, which his criticism has not been long enough at school to
detect] The book " i)e Curruplo Ecclcsise Slaiu,^^ was not written by
its putative autlior Nicolaus de Clamangis, who was secretary to the
anti-pope Benedict XIII. John De Chelm, James De CJcur, and John
of Bavaria, have had respectively the honor of a production of whicii,
its real author had reason to be ashamed. I wish my friend would spare

me the necessity of siich frequent exposure of his I won't say it.

Here are the complete works of i.igunri, in eight vohimes, with an
index consisting of one volume. I have performed a work of supere-
rogation. I have examined these voluines, from cover to cover, and
in none of them can so much as a shadow be found for the infamous
charge. I exonerate my friend from the sin of wilful misrej)rescnta-
lion, I will say he has Tleeri deceived, niislcd by — anti-ciirisi, perhaps,
who can deceive the elect, // possible, that is to say, if Vll lil him,
which 1 have, in this instance, no notion of doin^. The original tells
the truth. The translation lies. My friends, 1 Ijope that the same
audience, which is here now, will be here this evening, anil 1 pledge
myself, before the b<av<ns and the earth, that this iiasi- slander IS
what I call il. 'i'licrc is no foundation for it whatever in the works
of Liguori. On the contrary, in the place indicated, the severest
punishment, known to church discipline, is j)ronounced against the
ecclesiastic who violates the holy law; "Thou shait prrform unto the
Lord thine oath." Numbers xxx. 2 and seq.

I ktiow of no better viridieation of C/'atholic doctrines and jjractices,
than their simple and faithful announcement. It is the misrenresrn-
tation of our tenets that did us injury for times and a time and half a
timi!; but now the light from heaven is breaking. " Thou hast ap-
pointed daik'i'ss, and it is night, in il shall all tin- beasts of the earth
Sro about, — the mm riseth — and they shall lie do« ri in their dens."
's. ciii. -JO, 2iJ.

My learned opponent says the Tiber runs into the Mediterranean.
That is a fact, and so do the waters of a thousand nllier HtrenniK. Ho
says tluil I did not i»rove that there was a liead of tlie rhurcli in Rome
before Cnnstantine s lime. This I may hiinply ilcny; but liivc I not
quoted the testimony of genera! councils, of iho fathers, of numberless

254 DEBATE OJ( TUE

appeals to Rome, of Pajrans, historians and emperors, to prove that,
now incontestible, fact? I refer to Eiisebius, and add one remark that
Eusebius was born in 270. His history extends to the year 324, the
epoch when Constantine was sole master of the Roman empire. Eu-
sebius narrated the belief of the whole church during the preceding
two hundred years, for no longer period had elapsed si[ice the death of
St. John — and Polycarp, Ignatius, Iren?eus, Caius, a Roman priest,
and Hegesippus, the ecclesiastical historian, lived in that interval.
Read Eusebius. My friend has now allowed that, for a long time, the
church of Rome was pure. This is true ; but when will he fnlfil his
promise at the opening of the debate and inform us, at last, from what
church she is an apostacy? We are coming near the end of the dis-
cussion and this is too important a point to he forgotten.

"The church formerly used the vernacular language." So she did.
And there was a very good reason for it. The Latin then was the ver-
nacular of the greatest part of the civilized world, in consequence of
the Roman conquests. It was generally known, where other lan-
guages continued to be the vernacular. St. Paul wrote to the Romans
in Greek, a language which all the Romans did not understand. My
friend Mr. Campbell has stated the very best reasons, in the preface to
his new Testament, for the adoption of a uniform language as the ve-
hicle of revelation. The learned Southey agrees, if not with him, at
least, with the Catholic church on the subject of its peculiar fitness to
be the language of the Christian Liturgy.

" Latin,'" sajs Southey, Vol. I. p. 59, " was made the language ofreligion ; there
had been the same reason for this in Italy, and Spain, and France, as for making
it the language of the laws; and in England also, there was reason, which,
though different, was not less valid. A common language was necessary for
the clergy, who considered themselves as belonging, less to the country,
in which they happened, individually to have been born, or stationed, than to
their order, or to Christendom, for in these ages Christendom was regardedas
something more than a mere name. No nionern language was as yet fix-
ed, or reduced to rules or regarded as awritttn tongue; of necessity, therefore,
Latin, in which the western clergy read the scriptures, and in which the fathers
of the western church had composed their works, and the councils had issued
their decrees, was every where retained as the natural and professional lan-
guage of the ministers ot religion. They preached and catechized, and confer-
red in the common speech ofthe country, and that the church service was not ver-
bally intelligible to the congregation was, upon their principles, no inconvenience.

But if, in this respect, there was no real disadvantage in the use of a foreign
tongue; in other respects many and most important advantages arose from it.
The clergy became of necessity a learned body; and to their humble and pa-
tient labors we owe the whole history of the middle ages, and the preservation
of those works of antiquity, which, for the instruction of all after ages, have been
preserved : The students at Canterbury in Bede's time, were as well skilled, both
in Latin and Greek as in their native speech; and Bede, himself (worthy to be
called venerable, if ever that epithet was worthily applied) had acc|uired all that
could pobsibly be learned from books, and, was master of what was then, the
whole circle of human knowledge."

The people have the substance, frequently the literal translation, in
their prayer books, of what the Priest reads, during the sacrifice, in
the ancient language of Catholic Europe. They know as well as the
priest, himself, does, to what they answer, ' Amen.' When a foreigner
from any ofthe countries where Greek is not the vernacular comes in-
to our churches, and I need scarcely except even the Catholics, of the
Greek rite, he is perfectly at home, among his brethren in faith and
worship. Their ceremonies _nd prayers are the same as in his native
land — Germans, French, English, Irish, Poles, Swiss, Italians, Per-

boma:s catholic ueligion. 253

tuguese, like the Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven, we
hear our priests, as they did the apostles, speaking in a tongue which
we well may call our own, '* the wonderful works of God." The ser-
mons of our church are not preached in Latin, but in as plain English
as we can find in common use.

I have answered all I could note of the gentleman's remarks. I have
only two of my own to add at present. It is in reference to the asser-
tion of my learned opponent that monsters are always emblematical
of bad men or tyrants. Now what will my friend say of Ezekiel 1st
ch. " And I saw — and behold a whirlwind came out of the north
and a great cloud, and a fire infolding it, and brightness was about it;
and out of liie midst thereof, that is, out of the midst of the fire, as it
were the resemblance of Amber, and in the midst thereof the likeness
of four living creatures : and this was their appearance : there was the
likeness of a man in them. Every one had four faces, and every one
four wings. Their feet were straight ftet, and the sole of their foot
was like the sole of a calf's foot ; and they sparkled like the appear-
ance of glowing brass. And they had the hands of a man, under their
wings, on their four sides : and they had faces, and wings on their
sides. And I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many
waters, as ii were the voice of the most high God ; — This was the
vision of the likeness of the glory of the Lord." What will my friend
now^say of his monster theory 1 These animals are taken to h?ve
been figures of the four Evangelists, — or of all the Apostles.

My second remark is, that whoever has read Humes' or Lingard's
history of England, knows that the Ana-baplists when driven by arm-
ed soldiers out of the Parliament House, found in the famous Oliver
Cromwell, a perfect fac-sirnile of the Anti-Christ. — [Time expired.]

Three o'clock, P. M.
Mil. Campbei-I, ri.Hts —

There was one remark made liy my opponent, in his last speech,
and only one that had some a|)pr(>i)riatt' rt fcrenoe to my ninarks on
symbols. I'pon this remark, I will makr one amnnalioii. \\ hatevcr
else he has been j)lcased to say, may pass for what it is worth, tax free.
The gentleman asserts, that beasts of prey arc not always sym-
bolical of tyrants. Had I asscrlrd that proposition, it would havn
been in point to have made such a ninark : but iinfortunatcly for liim,
that was not my proposition. It was, that wlim (iod depicts a tyran-
ny, he selects sorne monster, or some savage wild beast to symbolizo
it. Hut is that identical with—" beasts of prey in symbolic languago
only represent tyrants V Or follows it from my proposition, that a lion
orancafTlemust«/(('tf_y.iand uniformly represent a tyrant] — I went far-
ther ancfsaid, that some savage wild beasts— some monster was (iod's
image of a sec\il;ir or eeelesiastic despotism. 'I'his was my explanation.

It"i^ true liiat a " lion," as well as a " lam!)" is api>lied to the Sa-
vior. He is the " Lion of the tribe of .liidah :" but Daniel's lion bad
wings, and rame from the sea. It was a monster.

The Roman spirit, in othiT words, the savagr; spirit of pagan and
papal Kome, has been imparted even to Prnlestant stales. In so much
that England has for her symlxd, or national device, a tawny lion;
and her sons have chosen iliejr own eagle, a ravenous bird of prey,
for their device, that they may pounce u;.:!i their mother's lion and
show themselves as full of war and stratagem and spoils, as the bar-

256 DEBATE O.N THE

barous and uncivilized nations of the old pagan world. — Although I
prefer the American Eagle to tlio British Lion, I would rather fight
the battles of my king, under the device of a milk while dove, on an
azure flag, as more consonant to the genius of the Reign of heaven.
War, however, is wholly barbarous. Nations at war, are at best but
partly civilized, and, therefore, they generally choose beasts of prey
for their insignia. \Vhen we become more rational, more civilized,
and more christian, we will find some other way of settling our na-
tional disputes, than with the sword, and with the confused noise of
the warrior, and garments baptized in blood.

The gentleman asked, the other day, (and I know not whether
in the crowd of curious and impertinent matters introduced, 1 paid
any attention to it) — if God could make twelve men infallible, could
he not make as many more infallible as he pleased; and continue
them through all succeeding time ■?! Certainly he could, I answer:
but there is no philosophy in this question. I might retort, could not
God have made fourteen instead of seven primary planets ? and as
many satellites as he pleased 1 And the same answer would equally
suit both questions. We therefore answer by saying, that neither
the system of nature, nor the system of religion needs them. The
inspired twelve made a full revelation of christian truth. They taught
the whole religion : We need nothing more. If a full and explicit
development, is once made, and carefully preserved ; ten thousand
apostles could not perfect the christian system, by adding a new idea.

My friend gave me a challenge the other day : I think I have ac-
cepted it : he now adds from some new source, or repeats, I know
not which, " If the testimony of tradition be not infallible how can
you know the Bible to be inspired ?" This, together with his repeated
assertion that Protestants believe in the bible on the same testimony
he offers for the succession of Peter, &c.; I reserved for my sixth pro-
position, which, because of the advanced state of the discussion, as
respects time, is likely to be crowded into a corner, I therefore beg
permission to introduce it at this time.

" Prop. V'I. JNotwilhstuiulinglitr pittensions to liave given us the Bible, and
faith in it, neare pcii'cciiy indepencJeiit ol' hei- for our knowledge of that book,
and its evidences of a duiii:: original.

The Roman Catholic says, as the bishop has himself averred, " I
believe in the Holy Catholic church :" but this phrase needs a general
council to explain it. Does it mean, I believe Ihe Catholic church;
or, I believe in the (.^atholic church 1 Do they confide in it for salva-
tion, or only believe what it believes ; and because it believes it? It is
ambiguous. The " fides carbonaria" is thus expressed : " I believe
what the church believes; and the church believes what I believe ;
and we both believt; the same thing." Or, as repeated the other
day, the Roman Catholic believes the bible on the authority of the
church, and the church on the authority of the bible ! But the Chris-
tian is commanded and expected to be always ready to give a reason
for the faith that is in him. God is reason; and every communica-
tion from him is rational ; and as man is a reasonable being, lie must
have good reasons to offer for his believing the christian religion.
When you ask a Roman Catholic the reason of his faith, what does
he answer? His father told him that the Roman Catholic was the
true church. 'J'he same reason would justify any one for being a
Jew, a Turk, or an infidel. He that is of the order of Ali or Omar,

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 257

has then, as good a reason to give for his faith in the Koran, as any
Romanist has to give for his faith in the bible, if his answer to the
question, ' why do you believe ?' is, Because my father, or the /iturque,
or the church told me it teas so. I would, indeed, be gratified to learn
from my opponent, Dr. Purcell, why he would not have had as good
reason for believing in the Koran, as he has for being a Roman Ca-
tholic, on the ground cf mere tradition, had he happened to have been
born in Turkey ? There must be an examination of the testimony,
and perception of its truth, on its own intrinsic excellence; or, a con-
viction of its truth upon the evidence which it affords; else there is no
reason in faith — it is mere credulity, or superstition.

The first, and characteristic difference, between the Protestant and
the Roman Catholic, is this: the former believes the scriptures first,
and the church afterwards ; whereas, the latter believes the church
first, and ihe scriptures afterwards. " But," says the bishop, "where
does the Protestant get the bible to believe, but through the church T"
And that first brings us to tlie proposition.

If any person hand me a book, and I read it, and believe it, does my
faith in it necessarily rest upon him who hands it to me 1 And, yet,
this is the gigantic strength of ail that my opponent can say on this
subject. It would be much more plausible, that the Protestants are
indebted exclusively to the Roman Catholic church for the book, if
Protestants believed all the Roman Catholic traditions, as well as the
bible : hut, while we reject ihe apocrypha, and the tradiiions of popery,
and receive the bible only, this fact will answer a thousand volumes of
sophistry, in proof that our faith in the bible, rests not upon the author-
ity of the church of Rome. The fact, that we reject her apocryphal
bible and testament, with all other traditions of Roman Catholics, an-
cient and modern, resting solely upon her authority, and that we re-
tain the bible, (one version of which she has,) is incontestable proof,
tliat we receive the bible on other authority than her traditions. Dis-
pose of this fart who may, I affirm that my opponent never can ! This
illustrious and indispu'.ai)lc f-'f'. places in bold relief the irrelevancy
of his eflTort to show, that our faith in the bible, and his belief in Pe-
ter's Roman diocese, or in his being bishop of Rome, rest upon the
same authority. That I must believe a letter on the authority of him
who carries it, or a book on the authority of him who puts it in my
hand, is another of the assumptions of the chunh of encroiichmcnts,
resting upon Peter's having been bishop of Rome.

(•0(1 created both the sun and the human eye, and he has adapted
them to each other. He created the human understamling and the
bible, and adapted them to each otht.-r. The honest sluduni <if nature
needs no tradition to prove that man made not the sun ; iieiiher does
the hurnblr and candid student of the bible, need atiy witness from the
bishops or church of Rome, that thr>y did not make the bible. She is, in-
deed, a witness for the bible, and the true church, somewhere elHf ex-
isting than in her own cotnmunion : for, had it not heeii for her rivals,
who, like Ar(»U8, have ever watched the sarrerl i( xl, how it would
have been interpolated and corrupted, her editions of the priiniiivr fa-
thers, and other books of which she was the sole or chief deimstory,
abundantly declare. But, having fixed the dale, not merely of the first
pope, but of ttu! granrl scbiHin whieh originated the Roman Catholic
church, 1 hasten, with all despatch, to ulfjw that we have rupies of the
w 2 33

2vVS nEUATi; o.\ thk

bible more ancient than tlio grand schism, more ancient tlian the firHt
jiopo : nay, that were written before tlie question ot" a supreme head
nep^nn to be discussed ; and wiiicli copies, in the form of transcription,
Iiave never l)een soiled by the fingers of a 'monk. I read but a few
documents, as I have but little time for this Subject; but I read them
from a source of biblical authority, which, on thesje points, has not
been, and, I presume, will not be, dispiited ; " Home's Introduction:
" Of the lew iiinatijcripts known to be t\tuiit, whidi contain the Greek Scrip-
tures (tliat is, tlu' Old Testament, nccoi-ding tu the Septuagint version, and the
New Testament) there are two wliirh ])re-emincntiy 'lemancl the attention of
the Biblical stuilent lor their antifinity ami intrinsic value, yiz. The Alexandrian
manuscript, which is prescrrcd in the iiritish nmseum, and the Vatican manuscript,
deposited in the library of the \ atitan I'alace at Koine.

I. TheCuDKX Al.KXANnRlNUS, or Alexandrian manuscripts, which is noted by
the letter A in Wetstein's and Gricsbach's critical editions of the New Testa-
ment, consists of four foTio volui'ncs; the three first contain the whole of the Old
Testament, together with the Apocryphal books, and the Iburth comprises the
New Testament, the (irsl epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, and the Apoc-
ryphal psalms ascribed to Solomon. In ti)e New Testament there is wanting the
beginning as lar as Matth. xxv. 6. = vj^yu,- ifx.Txi- likewise from John vi. 50. to
viii. 52. and from the 2 Cor. iv. 13. to xii. 7. [This maniiscripl is now preserved
in the IJritish museum, where it was deposited in 17.73. ft was sent as a present to
king Charl.,s I. from Cyrillus Lucaris, a native of Crete, arid patriarch of Con-
stantinople, by Sir Thomas IJowe, ambassador from Kngland to the Grand Seign-
ior, in the year 1(J28. ('yrillus brought it with him from Alexandria, where,
probably, it was written. In a schedule annexed to it, he gives this account;
that it was written, as tradition informeil them, by Thecia, a noble Egyptian
HlIv, about thirteen hundred years ago, a little after the council of Nice. He
adds that the name of Thecia at the end of the book was erased; but that this
was the case with otli< r books of the christians, alter Christianity w'as extin-
guished in Kgvpt by the Mohammeilans: and that recent tradition records the fact
of tiie laceration and < rasure of Theela's name. The proprietor of this manuscript,
bel'ore it came into the hands of C) rilius Lucaris, had written an .\rabic sub-
scription, expressing that this book was said to ha\e been written with the pen
of Thecia the martyr." [Introduction to the critical study and knowledge of
the Ilolv Scriptures, by Thomas Hart^vell Home. \ ol. II. pp. 66, 67.

But, this is not the only «7>/e-papislical manuscript of the scripture,
now extant.

II. "TiiK CoDEX V'aticanus, No. 1209, which Wetstein and Grie.sbach
have bot:i noted with the letter B, contests the palm of anliciuity with the Alex-
andrian manuscript. No fac-simile of it has ever been published. The Roman
edition of the Septnagint, printed in 1590, professes to exhibit the text of this
manuscript; and in the prel'ace to that edition it is stated to have been written
before the year 387, i. e. towards the close of the 4th century: Montfaucon
and Blanchini refer it to the 5th or 6th century, and Du Pin to the 7th cen-
tury. Prof* ssor Hug has endeavored to shew that it was written in the early
part of the fourth century; but, from the omission of the Eusebian xuxKxi^ and
Tirxoi, Bishop Marsh concludes with great [)robabilil_v, that it was written be-
fore the close of the fifth century. The Vatican manuscript is written on parch-
ment or vellum in uncial or capital letters, in three columns on each page, all of
which are of the same size, except at the beginr.ing of a book, and without any
divisions of chapters, verses, or words, but with accents and spirits. The shape
of the letters, and color of the ink, prove that it was written tnroughout by one
and the same careful copyist." Id. ib. p. 74.

There are also versions olddr than the papacy, older than the Vul-
gate, which is itself evidently oldef than the church of Rome.

"Syria being visited at a very early period by the preachers of the christian
faith, several translations of the sacred volume were made into the language of
that country. The most celebrated of these is the Peschito or Literal {Versio
■Simplex,) as it is usually called, on account of its very close adherence to the
Hebrew text, from which it was immediately made. The most extravagant as-
icrtioni have been advanced concerning it* antiquity, some referring it to the

boma:< catholic RELiciort. 259

t'lme of Solomon and Hiram, while others ascribe it to Asa, the priest of Saraa-
ritaiis, and a third class, to the apostle Tliaddeus. This last tradition is receiv-
ed by the Syrian churches; but a more recent date is ascribed to it b_v modern
biblical philologers. Bishop Walton, Carp/cov, Lcusden, Bishop Louth, and
Dr. Kennicotl, dx its date to the first centurv ; Bauer, and some other German
critics, to the second or third century: Jahn fixes it at tlie latest, to the second
century; De Rossi pronounces it to be very ancient, but does not specify any
precise date. The most probable opinion is- that of Michaelis, who ascribes it to
the close of tlie first or to tiic ca^li.r part of the second century, at which time
the Syrian churches llourisiied most, and the christians at Kdessa had a teinplo
for divine worship erected after tiie model of ihat at Jerusalem: and it is not to
be supposed that they woull be witliout a version of the old Testament, the
reading of which liad been introduced by the-apostles." Id. ib. pp. Ifi7, 1C8.

" An important accession to biblical literature was made a few years since, by
the late learned and excellent Dr. Bucliannon, to whose assiduous hibors the
British church in India is most deeply indebted: and who, in his progress
among the I.yna churches and Jews of India, discovered and obtained nume-
rous ancient manuscripts of the scriptures, which are now deposited in the pub-
lic library at Cambridge. One of thise, «liich was discovered in a remote Syri-
an church near the mountains, is particularly valuable: it contains the old and
new Testaments, engrossed with beautiful accuracy in the Eslransrcic (or old
Svriac,) character, on strong vellum, in large folio, and having three colunms in
a'page. The words of every book are numbered: and the volume iiluniinatcd,
but not after the Kuropcan manner, the initial letters having no ornament.
Though somewhat injured by time or neglect, the ink being in certain places
obliterated, still the letters can, in general, be distinctly traced from the in)-
prtss of the pen, or from the partial C9rosion of the ink. The Syrian churcii as-
signs a high dale to this manuscript, which in the opinion of Mr. Veates, who
has published a collation ol the Pentateuch, was written about the seventh
century. In looking over this manuscript, Dr. Buihannan found the- very first
♦men<ratioii of the Tiebrew te.\t proposed by Dr. Keunicut, which doubtless is
the true reading. Id. ib. |). 189.

Now, if we of the west of Europe, did receive tlie bitde first from
our Roman Catholic ancestors, I ask, would thai make us dependent
on tlieir traditions alone for that book ; any more tiian A. 13., who
lived on one of the seven mouths of the Nile, from wiiieh lie supplies
himself with water, was, on that account, absolutely depeiidi iil on llic
branch nearest his dwelling. Tell him that he is absolutely and alono
dependent on it for water ; and he will say, " No; but it is more coji-
venicnl to supply my.self from this stream: there are six oilier braneh-
e.s, from which 1 could supply mys(-lf, were it necessary for my life or
comfort." So say we. We have .lews, (Jreeks, Armenians, and Pro-
te.slants, from llie firsl schism, A. D. '250, down to tlie present day;
to say notbinfj of the ancient sceptics, ('elsus, I'orpbyry, .lulian, and
others ; and the ancient heretics, from whpse wrilintrH, tojrellier with
those of the infidel jiajrans, we could almosl compile a New Teisla-
ment, containiii(f every thing read, not ojily since, but before the eo\in-
cil of Laodicea. l)u Pin himsejf acknowledges, that before that coun-
cil, even in the third century, l|ip scriptures were read as they are now.
But, as for our independence of all Roman Catholic tradition, on this
subject, many other proofs may be offered. The nolorioim and irlorioiiH
fart', however, that I.'rotestanl.s have rejected the Uomaii Calboiic rule
of faith, apocrypha, traditions, and all, and even her own vuljrnte, na
authentic, will for ever frown r.ui of countenance, the prnundless im-
putations of my loo ciedulouH opponent. [Time expired.]

Ilulfpml .T oV/.,r/,, /'. M.
Bidiior PinrEi.i, ri»e» -

My friends, have you ever Hccn the Anti-Christ 1 Look at him now
(holding up a book.) This morning, I endeavored to shew ihot Ma-

260 DEBATE ON TnE

hommed was the fittest beast, to illustrate the mysterious prophecy;
and 1 stated that many names (foiirit'cii) could Ix: Ibun i to correspond
with the numbers 6Gt». I iiow distinctly shew the pige and book,
where the computation is made and the last of these names is that ot"
God himself. Cerdenus, a Greek writer, testifies thil llio name of
M ihommed, as it was written in his time, will exactly spell the beast.
On this suhject, llie reader who is not content with the article, Anti-
Christ, in Robinson's Calmet, may refer to Walmesley's General His-
tory of the Christian church, p. 250.

I do not give my own theory of the matter. There have been too
many theorists already, to need more. I bi lieve the beast was neither
Luther, nor Mahommed, nor the pope. Tiiis is not an article of faith
with me, nor with any Catholic. 1 respect the prophecy, but I await
to decide the questions until ' Revelations' be what the term imports.
I have here a history of the popes, in French, published, as the title
page says "at the expense of the holy Father.'' Of course it is to be
understood to be a hoax, and it deserves to be so considered. It tells
a heap of lies about him ; among others he was to be destroyed for ever
in 1745. We may then write his epitaph.

I do not know on what grounds my friend asserted yesterday, that
the 2nd. commandment was not a part of the Catholic rule of morals.
I have already exhibited various catechisms, in use in the United
States, in all of which, every word of the commandments is found. ^
suppose my friend overlooked the fact. I was glad to hear the gentle-
man speak so highly of Michaelis. it showed his literary knowledge;
and perhaps he may be interested in knowing that when but one edi-
tion of his works could be obtained in Paris, in 1824, I procured it.
Here it happens !)y a singular coincidence, unknown to liim, to be. I
invite him to examine in it the commandments, and he will find them
fully and faithfully rendered in every Catholic Bible and Testament.
Will my friend tell the andience when the mazorelic points, without
which the understanding of the Bible, if not impossible, is very diffi-
cult, were first introduced ? and by whom ?

Do all Bible readers know, as they ctvghX to know, that in the old
Hebrew Bible, there is no division of verses, much less of chapters?
That a Roman Catholic cardinal had a good deal to do in iriaking the
division — and that they were not Protestants, but Rabbis, who suffixed
the points which serve instead of vowels to Hebrew words, which
have none but consonants alone ; accordingly, as these vowels are
placed, the Hebrew root may signify whatovei- the poiiHer pleases?
The context of the oldest known moaning mu3t be the only criterion.
But I should like to know how one of our good, plain, homebred and
industrious citizens can accomplish 'bis task for himself. Even learn-
ed men made themselves ridiculous by their mazorelic fixtures and
translations, and Luther, who was a good Catholic scholar — laughing
at the absurdity of their versions of passages in the Bible — observed
that "In the beginning the cuckoo ate the sparrow and the feathers,"
would be just as good a translation of the first line of Genesis, as some
of theirs. I will return to this subject.

It appears that Birds and Beasts of prey may represent peace, as
well as cruelty. England then suffers no disparagement from her
Lion, nor the United States, fVom h:r Eagle. The gentleman sug-
gests a dove for the latter. 1 have not the slightest objection, and if

nO>IAN CATHOLIC EELIOIOX. 261

the criticism I have heard be correct, the bird lately stamped on the new
American coin resembles a chicken, more than a bird of prey. It looks
as if it were more to be preyed upon than preying, and more sinned
ajainst than sinningr.

Before I come to the very important point of the Bible, I must not
forget to quote the testimony of the eloquent Southey, to shew what
anii-Christs the popes were, and how they displayed their anti-christ-
ian spirit, in the conversion of Old England.

" '1 hat (jiegoiy, who was alterwards raised ta the popedom, and is distin-
guished from succeeding- popes of the same name (one alone tucepted,) by
the rank of saint, and from him, by the appellation of the Great, was one day
led into the niarket-plare at Rome, with a great concourse of persons, to look
at a large importation of foreign merchandise, which had just arrived. Among
other articles, there were some boys exposed for sale lilce cattle. There was
nothing remarkable in this, for it was the custom evtry where in that age, and
had been so from time immemorial: but he was struck by the appearance of the
boys, their 6ne clear skins, the beauty of their llaxen or golden hair, and their
ingenuous countenances; so that he asked from what country they came; and
when lie ivas told from the island of Britain, where the inhabitants in general
were of that complexion and comeliness, he inquired if the people were chrit-
tians, and sighed for compassion at hearing that they were in a state of Pagan

darkness From that day the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons became a

favorite object with Gregorj' Accordingly he despatched thither

forty missionaries Irom a monastery, which he had founded at Rome

When, therefore, Augustine (who was their chief) and his companions landed
in the isle of Thanet, they came not as obscure men, unprotected and unaccred-
ited ; but with recommendations from the kings of !•" ranee, and as messengers
from a potentate, whose spiritual authority was acknowledged and obeyed
throughout tiiat part of the world, to which the northern nations were accus-
tomealo iDok as the seat of empire and superior civilization. They made their
arrival known to Ethelberl, ami requested an audience. They approached in
procession, bearing a silver crucifix, and a portrait of our Savior, upon a ban-
ner adorned with gold, and chaunting the litany. The king welcomed them cour-
teously, and ordered them to be seated: after which, Augustine stood up, and,
through an interpreter, whom he had brought from France, delivered the pur-
port of his mission, in a brief, but well ordered and impressive discourse. He
was come to the king, and to that kingdom, h<' said, for their eternal good, a
messenger of good tidings; ofl'ering to their acceptance perpetual happincu,
here and hereafter, if they would accept his ^vords. The Creator and F{edeemer
had opened the kingdom of heaven to the human race: for (lod no loved iho
world that he had sent into it his only son, as that son himself tentificd, to be-
come a man among the children of men, and sufler death upon the cros», in
atonement for their sinl. That incarnate divinity had been made manifcHt by
innumenible miracles. Cliribt had stilled the winds and wuv««, and walked upon
the waters: he hud healed (liseasei, and restored the dead to life: finnllv, he had
risen from the dead liinnelf, that we might rise again ihroUKh him, iiml hud ni-
cendcd into heaven, that he might receive us then' in his g1i>ry; and he would
come again to judge both tlie quirk and the dead. " 'I'hink not," he proceeded,
"O most excellent king, that we are superstitious, because we have come from
Rome into thy dominions, for the sake of the sidvation of llue and of thy peo-
ple; we have clone this, being conslrain«(l liy great lov«': for that which ive de-
liire, above nil the nom[)s aiirlili lights of this world, is to have our fel!i)W-cren-
tiires partakers with ourselves in the kingdom of h< :i\en, A;i-." [Southey'" Hook
of the Cliurrh. chiip. iii. p. Xi. etc.

My frif-nd proposed a question, which In; thought difTicult, Why
do I believe the bible 1 He paid my answer would be, because tho
church believes it; and this, he sayw, in like I'etcr uivinp a rbararter
to Paul, and Paul to I'cier. I reciprocate the qurHiion of the gentlo-
man, and he says he believes in the church, becauM; he believes in iho
bible. Thus the bible and church testify to each other in his theory,
and the difiiculty i.s infnuteiy greater for u Prolcslanl, than for a Ca-

a62 DEJLVTE ON THE

tholic. In fact, for a Catholic tlio question is not susceptible of any
difficulty, whatever. One word will shew that we are ripht. Which
Was priori The bible or the church 1 Manifestly, the bible was the
older. The apostles did not wait to have thousands of bibles copied,
and to freight vessels with them, and sail as supercargoes of the hea-
venly merchandise, to the distant nations of the earth. " /«i7//," says
St. Paul, '' comes front hearing.'''' There were millions of converts to
Christianity, whole nations were converted to the Savior, by preach-
ins;, before the different books composing the present bible, were de-
termined to be genuine Scripture and collected into one volume. This
was not done before the beginning of the fourth century. The church
was therefore prior to the bible : and if ihe bible had never been writ-
ten, the gospel could have been preached and believed, as it was in
the early ages, without its aid. How did the apostles make converts
without the bible"? They addressed themselves to the reason of the
unconverted nations. They convinced them, if necessary, of the ex-
istence of God, by the spectacle of the divine wisdom and power, dis-
played in t.he creation and preservation of the world. They appealed
to the natural law, whose precepts were written by the finger of God,
on tablets of flesh, the hearts of men, before they were engraven on
stone, amidst the thunder and lightnings of Sinai. Thus did they
find the great primary truths of natural religion, with regard to
both doctrine and morals, inculcated by the contemplation of the
visible wonders of creation and the testimony of the human heart.
They next proceeded to convince their hearers of the unity of God,
and the sinfulness and grossness of idolatry, of their having departed
from the moral law, of the darkness in which sin had involved the
human race, of our incompetency for our own cure, of the divine com-
miseration of our misery, of the descent of .Tesus Christ, his doctrine,
liis miracles, his charily, his establishment of his church, his sacra-
ments and the various means of grace, his promises to be with his
apostles. He and his Holy Spirit, for ever, his death, &c. The holiness
of the apostles' lives, the cruel death with which they sealed the truth
they had proclaimed, conciliated the belief and coinpleted the conversion
of their hearers. '' I willinglfi,'" says Paschal, " helin-e the witnesses,,^
who let their throats be cut to attest tfie truth of what they (leclar£" TliC
bible could not shed its blood to attest its divine oriffin. The ignorant,
who are a large proportion of the human race, could not read it; the
learned, and the pious, and the sincere, as every one knows, fourid it
a task far above their strength, to distinguish genuine from spurious
scripture. Before the invention of printing, men could iiot procure
bibles : since the invention of printing, they read them to introduce a
flood of new sects; so that there are now as many religions, almost,
as there are different versions or different readers of the scriptures. If,
on the contrary, there is anything clearly taught in the scriptures, it is
the authority of the church, which, without aid from the bible, not all
composed when the first apostles preached, had fully established her
authority, and, independ. nfly of her miracles, proved, by the preter-
natural success of her preaching, that God was indeed with her, as he
had promised, teaching all nations, and perpetually suggesting to her
all truth. Hence, we believe in the church first; and on the faith of
the evidences which I have enumerated, we believe in the bible, which
the church presents to us, vouching for its purity and authenticity. •

R03LVX CATHOLIC RELIOIOX. 263

The bible obtained, sanctions the authority of the church, and confirms
our faitii. Here, nil is consistent, and onr submission to the church is
reasonable. The Protestant divines. Hooker and Chillingworth, allow
that the bible cannot bear testimony to itself: even Luther was forced
to acknowledge it. " We p.re obliged," says he, " to yield many
things to the papists ; that with them is the word of God, that we re-
reived from tlierh ; otherwise, we should have known nothing at all
about it." (Comment on John, c. 16.) Hence the remarkable saying
of St. Augustine : " I should not believe the gospel itself, if the
Catholic church did not oblige me to do so." Will my friend inform
me, why lie rejects an authentic work, of great excellence, written by
iSt. Barnabas ; who is termed, in scripture, an apostle, and declared to
be full of ihe holy Ghost, (Acts xiv. 24> xL 21 ;) and receives, as
canonical, parts of the New Testament, which were not written by
apostles at all, viz. the gospels of St. .Mark and St. Luke ? The original
text of Moses, and the ancient prophets, was destroyed witli the tem-
ple and city of Jerusalem, by the Assyrians under Nebuchadnezzar; and
the authentic copies which replaced them, perished, in the persecution
of Anliochns. How were these books restored? Paul wrote his
E|)istle to the Romans, and entrusted it to the deaconess Pli(Hbe. His
Epistle to the Ephesians, he confided to the disciple Tychicus. How
tan we be sure ot these epistles, as they now stand in the 'J'estamentT
"Was il not the corruption of the bible by Queen Elizabeth's bishops,
that caused James L to iiave a new translation to be made 1 Hut, 1
should be endless, if I enumerated all the insurmounlahle difficulties,
which a Protestant encounters at the very first step of his journey in
quest of a religion. lie muxt turn Catkolic al the vert/ inihrl, nud tuhc
ihe bt'blf, a« he ffc/n it, on nnlhiirili/, or remain an unbeliever all hi.t life.
And he nntsl believe that atilhurili/ lo lir infallible, or he ean never be sure
thai Ihe bible il i^ives him is divine. (Jalholics have faith by baptism, as
Protestants have ; but the latter lose it when they adojit, on arriving
at mature age, the Protestant princijile, that every man must find out
his reIi<rion for himself, from the bible. Many Protestants are not ad-
monished of tiif danger of their siiuaiion, and do not themselves reflect
Oti these difriculties. As long as they an; sincere, and do the best lliey
can lo obey (iod and conscience, the Catholic church excuses them, in
the words of St. .\ugustine: " Let those treat you harshly, who know not
how hard it is to get rid of old prejudices. Let those treat you harshly,
who have not learned how very hard it is \o purify the interior eye, and
render il cHj)able of contemplating the sun (jl the soul, truth. Itut, as
to us : we are far from this disposition towanls persons who arc separ-
ated from us, not by errors of their own invention, but by their being
entangled in those of others. We are so far from this disposition, that
we pray to (iod, that in reliiliiig the false (jpiiiious of tlinse whom you
follow, not from malice, but from im|>rndeii(-e, he would bestow iijion
us that spirit of peace, which feels no other sentiment than charily, no
oilier interest than that of Jesus Christ, no other \Visli but for your
salvation." Had wc been born Maliommedans, we wonid, perlr.ips,
live MahommedaiiH. Thank (Iod, we are iioL IJnt, this lioeK not re-
quire us to throw away our laitb. It would be too lf>ng lo notice nil
the genlleiiian says. I attend to the most important.

Now, I will vrnturo to assert, that ihern is not a Protestant in this
house, who can say, that he has foufid oul all the tenets which lie be-

264 DEBATE ON THB

lieves, by readings the bible alone. He believes them, because his
parents, and teachers, and minister, his catechism, taught them ;
or a hundred other influences may have been brought to bear upon his
mind and his affections, favorable to those peculiar tenets. It is not at
all the case with Protestant children, any more than with Catholic chil-
dren, that reason is the first to lead them to their belief. Let each one
candidly examine his own heart, and ask himself if he was not as
much educated in those doctrines which he now professes, as the Cath-
olics were in theirs.

How can he be sure, if he indeed possess an authentic copy of the
scriptures, that he understands them 1 " The word of God," says the
Protestant bishop, Walton, " does not consist in mere letters, whether
written or printed, but in the sense of it; which no one can better in-
terpret than the true church, to which Christ committed this same
pledge." (Polyglot. Proleg. ch. v.)

My opponent says, there was a copy of the scriptures found, which
the fingers of a monk had never soiled. And how does he go about to
establish this proposition ! He quoted Home. I will take up this
very v.ork, and prove, while I admit that Home was a learned writer,
that he fell into some very unlearned blunders. But how does Home
say that my friend is right? He says, that this very manuscript was
found in one of the twenty-two monasteries of Mount Athos ! ! Lo !
there was a monk at the bottom of it after all ! [Time expired.]

Four o'clock, P. M.
Mr. Campbell rises —

My friends, there is any thing but order in our discussion — I mean
logical order, as respects the duties of a respondent. Now, certain-
ly, this will abundantly appear in the report of this debate.

The gentleman has not once, as yet, replied to my speeches in regu-
lar sequence ; but, after the interval of a night, a day, and sometimes
two days, he responds to some point or argument: and then his re-
ply consists either in accusing me of misunderstanding, or misstating
wliat he has said ; or perhaps in denying my authorities, or by intro-
ducing some extract, or tradition, or opinion, from some great Pro-
testant, or some good Catholic, or some excogitation of his own.
His last speech was a happy illustration of Ovid's

" congpstaque ebHeni —
Non bene junctarum discordia seniina rerum."

[Metamor. lib. I.

And, certainly, his mirthfulness and gravity were in unison with
the dignity of his reply; and equally fallible as respects effect of any
sort upon his audience. This rhetoric soon wears out. It is but an
echo, a sound, a shadow ; the crisis calls for something more solid. But
if it cannot be found, I must submit to interruption, and turn aside to
notice the gleanings of his last and best reflections upon the prophecies.

The gentleman has given us from his library some ridiculous puns
upon the name of Mahomet. He does not, and under his hard desti-
ny he cannot, always discriminate the precise point in debate. It is
not about the name of an individual, such as Ludovicus, or Maho-
met; but of a people — a community — a kingdom. His second mis-
take is, that if it were a personal name, the number of the name of
Mahomet as given in his example only makes 502. His name pro-
perly written is equal to only 463. He ought also to have decipher-

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 265

ed, or his author, whether his name should be taken as il is written
in Arabic or in Greeii. But whether he take it i:i Arabic or in Greek,
it will not in Grecian numerals, and ccrtainl}' not in Arabic, equal
6G(j. So fails his effort at both reason and ridicule to dispone of this
morning's arorument from prophecy. I again repeat, that on this point,
as en every other, my argument appears unassailable.

Yesterday my opponent was asked, where infallibility resided ; to-
day he answers by asking, where shall we find the mind ? In the
head, stomach, hands, feet, or where? This is not a parallel case.
The question is, as usual, mistaken, or misapplied. It is, where is
the mouth of infallibility 1 when I desire an infallible response, where
shall I hear iti Where is the tongue of infallibility ? If the church
possess infallibility and never decides a question by any organ — ne-
ver can utter an answer, it is worth no more than a diamond in the
depths of the Atlantic,

The alpha and omega of the proofs offered by the bishop for the ex-
istence of infallibility, which has been so often repeated, and which
I promised sometime to notice', is this: '■'■ I am with you.''' Now, lo-
gic asks, what means " I am with you V as proving infallibility, un-
less " I am with you," is a phrase already incontrovertibly established
to mean infallibility. But what says bible fact 1 There are, at least, four
meanings of the phrase. 1 am with you, personally, providentially, gra-
ciously, or with miraculous power. It could not be the first : for he
was leaving them peiscnally. It could not be the second ; because
that was common to all good men. 'J'hus God was with Josepli, with
Jacob, with all the patriarchs, and with all good men. Il could not
be that God was to be with them graciously ; for that too, is common
to all christians. As the apostles said to all good christians, *' The Lord
be with you all," it could not be a special promise to the apostles.
What remains then] Mark, the evangelist, explains : "These signs
shall follow. In my name shall they cast out devils: they siiall
speak with new tont'ues, serpents shall they take away; and if they
drink any deadly thirtg it shall not hurt thorn. They shall impose
hands on the sick and they shall be whole." So the Rhemish 'I'esta-
ment reads Mark's account of the promise, " I am with you." Again ;
after the ascension of the Messiah, the evangelist relates, v. 20. " But
they" (the apostles) "going forth preached every where: our Lord
workini^ with all, and confirming the word with signs that followed."

This, then, is the proof of infallibility, as interpreted by Mark in
the canon Catholic Testament. Now, does rmt this confine the pro-
mise to the apostles 1 Can the popes work miracles ! Can the bish-
ops 1 — Such a miracle, f^-rsooth, as the existence of the I^oinan Ca-
tholic church in the western empire, after the rise of Mahometanism
in the east ! A splendid miracle, truly! 'I'hat proves as much for
Mahometanism and I'agaiiism, is for the popes of I?ome : for all
these systf^ms rose upon the ruin, and also withstood the shocks of
other systrms I

\\ hen Peter said to the rripide, "Silver and gold I have none; but
such on I havr I give thee — In the name rtf .fcsus take up yonr lied and
walk," he felt that he pes'*! ssed Homelliing in the promine " I am
with you." (Tan any of his succeBsors speak in this style: silver
and gold I have none: but such as I have (the power of Christ) I
give thee ?

The gentleman's dimerlation on the vicious circle, leaves him

X 34

266 DEBATE 0>" THE

where it found him ; believing the church first and the bible after-
wards; and makinor the one prove the other: but he will never dis-
pose of it. He is like the eccentric ■witness, whose veracity could
only be ])roYe(l by the principal : and yet the principal depends for
his veracity upon the witness. The bishop for a little while turned
Protestant, and then he affirmed that he believed in Christ on the ev-
idence of his own miracles ; and that evidence he found in the bible,
and tjiat bible he interpreted for himself". Thus he became a Protest-
ant, when he attempted to solve that (iordion knot. But as soon as
he had, by the Protestant rule, obtained faith in Christ, he instantly
relapsed into the embrace of holy mother, and denounced the bridge
over which he escaped from the island.

But the gentleman asked a question which has puzzled wise men to
answer. A child however of four years old could have asked Newton
a question that he could not have answered in a thousand years.
"How can you prove the bible]" says the bishop. Does it prove
itself 1 I will imitate him, this once, and ask, does nature prove it-
self! Does God prove his own existence without his works or by
his works] Must there be another universe created to prove this 1 —
This is a question no one will put, unless on the hypothesis that no
man can prove a universe to exist but by other testimony than itself.
So the bible proves itself to be the word of God, as nature proves it-
self to be the work of God. Thus has the supreme intelligence stamp-
ed the impress of himself both on nature and revelation. David says,
" Lord, thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." I have
other reasons, if necessary, to prove how the bible was put together.
Many a christian has been made so by the single testimony of one
evangelist ; or by a single epistle of Paul. We have four gospels;
but one would have been enough ; and as much as many individuals
had. The whole christian doctrine might be learned from Paul alone,
from perhaps the half of his epistles. Paul and Peter wrote, and said
niucli more by divine inspiration than is preserved or recorded. So
did the ancient prophets. We need not lo prove, in order to our faith,
who collected the writings into one volume, any more, than who col-
lected all the words of Christ, that arc reported.

Cardinal Bellarmine says: "There is sure to be some doctor at
the head of a schism." Heresiarchs are generally men of letters.
Where then the pertinency of those remarks about the unlearned wres-
ting the scriptures? The original means untaught, untractahle persona
rather than unlearned, Philosoj)hers, as they love to be called, are
generally the most unteachable, and the greatest wresters and perver-
ters of the scriptures, Peter had those too wise to learn, in his eye,
when he spoke of wresting the scripture ; and not the simple, honest
and unassuming laity. Let a man sit down as Mary sat, at the feet of
Christ, and humble himself as a pupil ought; he will then hear the
voice of God, and understand it too. He will then discern how it is,
that all God's children are taught by God, and that there is none that
teacheth like him,

■'- Rather wittily than logically, the gentleman gives the monks some
credit, for handling the Alexandrine manuscript. Be it known howev-
er, that monkery began in St, Anthony's time; and that this said copy
is older than the founder of monasteries. Because Tacitus, Livy, Hor-
accj and Virgil passed through their hands, are we dependent on them

H01LA.N CATHOUC HELIGION. 267

for all our knowledge of Greek and Roman letters'? The monks handled
copies that they never wrote. But that gave those copies neither
more nor less credit. I did not mean that one ought not to thumb the
scriptures in reading them, when I spoke of them being soiled by the
hands of a monk. I have then, so far as objection has been made, as I con-
conceive, sustained the sixth proposition. Will the president moderator
please have the 5th proposition readl [The 5th prop, was here read.]
Prop. V. Her notions ot" purgatory, indulgences, auricular confession, remis-
sion of sins, transubitiiitiation, suoererogalion, Aic. essential elements of her sys-
tem, are immoral in their tendency, and injuiious to the wcll-bciug of society,
relis:iou5 and political.

Now, my friends, I want to strike a blow at the main root of the
whole papal superstition : for that root is found in the proposition just
now read. I have but little time to do it, and shall, therefore, march
right up to the point at once.

The capital, distinguishing doctrine of Protestantism, next to the
bible alone as the rule and measure of christian faith and manners,
and the right and duty of all to read and examine it is, that the death of
Jesus Christ was not simply that of a martyr : hut that " be died for
our gins, according to the scripture-s." That the death or sacrifice of
Christ is the great sin offeririg, and the only sin cffcrin!^, is a cardinal
doctrine of Protestantism ; and that there is now no priest, nor vic-
tim, nor sacrifice, nor altar, nor sin offering on earth follows, as a
matter of course. Jesus was " the Lamb of God" — " Himself the sin
offering and the priest." He expiated our sins in his own body on the
cross." " His blood cleanses from all sin." Papal priests, penances,
confessions, masses, remissions, purgatories, intercessions of saints,
angels, and almost all their ceremonies, arise frcyn the notion, the
radical mistake that the sacrifice of Christ, as a sin offering, an atone-
ment, a reconciliation, was some way deficient. Although we can
trace supererogation, purgatory, penances, lustrations, the intercessions
of angels and dead rnen, &c. to the philosophers and drejiincrs of the
east — their divine Platos, Pythagorases and Aristotles : still llio im-
mediate origin and cause of all these errors may bo traced to ignorance
of tlie bible doctrine of the priesthood of Christ, the antitype of that of
Aaron and Melchisidec. It was Dryden, a Iloinan Catholic poet, if I
mistake not, who said thai the dos pou .sin, which Ar.^hinicrlrs sought
in vain by which to raise the globe, was found by the |)opes of liomu
in the doctrine of purgatory. That uas tlu: philoBophor's stone — tho
lever which lifts the world — which has brought more gold to Rome,
than the discovery of America itself.

My friends, the docUine of purgatory with ail its correlatcais based
on two errors.

Ist. Thai man ran do more than his duly .•

2d. That soinclhina; may be added to the sacrifice (f Christ lo qive it
more value or rffirari/.

Now, I affirm, that no created being, not a Gabriel, or Uriel, or Raph-
ael, or the highest of the angelic hosts, can do an act of Kupercro-
galion. No man can, by any thought, word, or action, make (Jod his
debtor. " Who," nays Paul, " has first given to tho Lord, and it pliall
bfl recompensed to him againl For, of him, and through him, and to
him, are all things." Jesus told his disciples, that when they had
done all that was commanded them, they had only dono their duty,
and were to him unprofitable iorvanti. The greatctt saiot that

268 »EBATE Oy THE

ever lived is not more holy liian he ought to be, on his own acconnt.
This single thought evaporates that sea of merit which has performed
such wonders in Roman story.

No human being has any thing to give to God ; and therefore none
can merit from him any thing. If a man's salvation depended on his
shedding a single tear, where could he find it] The heart that feels
and the tear that flows, clear as chrystal down the cheek of the most
devoted saint, are of God's creation. And, therefore, it is out of the
question, to conceive how any work of merit, as respects God, is pos-
sible for angel or for man.

Were a saint to turn pilgrim and peregrinate on his naked knees
the four quarters of the globe, were he to give his body to the flames,
when God asks it, or duty requires it; he has deserved nothing from
God, on the ground of merit. He has only employed the powers that
God gave him, and used his faculties in a way consonant to the de-
signs of him that gave them. And sooner will a man add new glo-
ries to the sun or create new luminaries in the heavens, than add one
attribute of merit or of power to the sacrifice of Christ. " He fin-
ished transgression : made an end of sin offerings, brought in an ever-
lasting justification ;" and left nothing to be done to make his sacri-
fice more meritorious or efficient.

^^ orks of supererogation, auricular confession, masses for sins,
transubstantiation, purgatory, with all the appurtenances thereto be-
longing, are the veriest ghosts of pagnnism — the j)hantoms of infatu-
ated reason, attempts against the dignity cf God and the supremacy,
as well as the true and proper divinity and dignity of his Son.

This superstition, this man of sin, stands with his two feet upon
the two greatest lies in human history. He places his right foot on
the first and his left foot on the second. Need I say that the former
affirms l/ial Iks sacrifice nf Gtidh oivn Hon is insffficienl as a sin cffer'
ing .- and that the latter teaches thai man can do more than his duly to
God. Here then, I say to my opponent, 1 will measure swords with
him. Let him meet me on these too points, then it will be an easy
task to dispose of his imaginary purgatories, transubstantiation, pen-
ances, works of supererogation, &:c. 6cc. and to show that so far from
bringing glory to God or righteousness to men, they are positively,
naturally, and necessarily opposed to both. Let liim try his strength
of scriptural argument and reason on these cardinal points, and it
will, as our time is so far exhausted, save the tediousness of nume-
rous details. — [Time expired.]

Ilaf-pcsi 4 o'cIocA; P. M.

BiSHf P PuRCKr.t. liiSf- —

My friends, it is imperative upon me to make one exposition before
I proceed. Many of you were here when my friend would have led
you into a gross mistake, respecting the Catholic church, by quoting
a pretended extract from Liguori. I asserted then, that nothing could
be found in that writer's works to substantiate the odious charge, to
give it so much as a semblance of truth. I have now before ine the
entire w'orks of Liguori, and I have placed them in the presence of-
my friend, Mr. Campbell. The 9th volume has an index, containing
every word of any importance, and I repeat, that after a search through
the whole nine volumes, nothing like th-: rjuolation cf last evening can
be found. I have now placed the book in the hands of Professor

EOMA?» CATHOtIC HELIClo:*. 2C9

Biggs, of Lane seminary, one of the moderators, and a Protestant of
the Presbyterian dcnoniination, if I do iiot mistake, and I will leave
it to him, or any other mtelliorent and candid man, to say to you
wjicther the fact is as my friend has stated, or the very contrary of
what he has stated.

Mr. ("ampbell. Be so good as to explain the matter fully.

Bishop Pl-rcell. I will explain the exact stale of the case. Mr.
Smith, the author of the translation, from whom my friend read this,
as well as many other things, has ffiven a fake quotation, and made
Liguori say, what lie never said. The facts are these : a canon of the
council of Trent, and Liguori, according to the canon, say, "that if
a priest falls by criminal intercourse, as specified, from the holy
state of purity, to which he is bound by a voluntary, deliberate, and
solemn vow, he shall be deprived of a large portion of his salary for
the first offence. If he does not rel'rain after admonition and such
punisiiment, he is again admonislied, and deprived of his whole salary,
and suspended from all his functions as a priest in the Catholic church.
But after the third admonition, if he is still incorrigible, he is excom-
municated, and cut otf from the church, even as St. Paul cut off the
incestuous man of Corinth." 1st. Ep. Corinth, ch. 5. v. 5. Nowhere,
in any pan of these volumes, is it said that a priest may sin thus upon
paying a fine, &.c.

Thus, my friends, you see how the poisonous fountains of error and
prejudice have been swelling over the land, and infeclinfr the public
mind, until many an honest and upright man has ihonirht, wlu-u he
denounced us for our (imputed) doctrines, he wasdoinnr (iud a service.
Were he aware of the imposition practised on his credulity, he would,
I have no doubt, have turned his indignation on riiore deserviufr victims.
"7/" we leave off slunderinu; them,''' said the ministers of Amsterdam,
to Vossius, who remonstrated with them on their injustice to the (-a-
tholics, *'■ our people idHI soon leave us.'" " JVes/tall do no !j;ood irith the
people,'''' said Shaftesbury, speaking of the Mocedo plot, " //" we cannot
make them swallow frreattr nonsense than this." " 'J'liou shall not bear false
witness ofrainxl thy nii^hlior,''' is a commundnii-nt which Maria Monk
and \\('j reverend y\iAv\:Ui\'^ reckon not to belong to the '* wciiihtier
ihinjfH of the law ." 'I'lit-ir stair calumnies are pai,! lor w itl> the biood-
mcni y ! (Jur doctrine-, many of its minisleiial adversarus kiunv to bo
pure and holy; but, overwhelmed with confusion, whenever they at^
tcm|)t argument, iIk y have no res(.urc(! but in addressing themselves
to llie pre|udicesol' their inijiliiit i)elievers. 'i"lie»e mock at (.'albolica
for " heariiiff the cliurcli;" and wlioni do tin i/ bear 1

As to the bible, the whole dilHculty is to be gone («V(.'r nijain and
again. Every now translation, it seerns, lies open to obJeclionH on
grave and important <rronuds. I have; here a paper, printed at Kana-
wha, in Cabell county, \iryinia. In il a ronsidrrabie class ol' ilii|)-
tisls. I think lluy are, (juarrel with tbeir brethren near Zoar, in (Huo,
and quarrc'l with the bible. They insist that all the cxislint; Iransla-
/ion* of it should be rejected, and a new one commenced for them-
selves from the original Hebrew luid (ireek scriptures — if they gel
them ! They can never get a bible tin y are suri' of. They cannot ({et
the original llebrr w in wbicb thr; gospel of St. Malib w waswiiiieii.
St. Jerome says he had seen il, and that is all we know of it since.
They cannot in twelve months of llio time that the getting up uf their
bible will require, determine, on grounds aatiBfactory to a biblical
X i

270 DEBATE ON THE

critic, and on Protestant principles, why they adopt or reject, as the
event may be, the seventh ver»e, of the fifth chapter, of the 1st Epistle
of St. John.

While this paper was being printed at Charleston, Virginia, the
•' Churchman," at New York, perhaps at the same hour, was printing
the very proof 1 have read to you, in favor of the Catholic doctrine of
confession. Let the Burmese and all others, Pagans or Christians,
lie on their oars, till the new scriptures appear. Then let printers,
agents and missionaries, be well paid, and the cumbrous machinery
set 10 work, and compass heaven and earth to make one proselyte,
who surely cannot be more settled in his faith than they who thus de-
spise the " inspired, authoritative, perpetual, catholic, perfect and in-
telligible rule."

He says the documents I have read are not pertinent. Now he cer-
tainly did not suspect that I thought he would so consider them. In his
estimation, there is nothing pertinent, logical, relevant, in all this dis-
cussion, but what he says himself. This he has neglected no oppor-
tunity of impressing on our attention. But the public will be the best
judge, and they can see through the attempts of either disputant to
forestall their impartial and unbiassed verdict. The printed report of
this controversy, will shew the pertinency or impertinency of our re-
spective arguments, and, for my own part, I have not the slightest fear
of the result.

I am very far from believing that I am worthy of advocating the
holy cause, in which my humble talents, and all my heart's affections
are enlisted, but such is my confidence in the power of that truth,
which I embraced on conviction as soon as I was able to judge for
myself, and whose evidences have been, ever since, brightening to my
understanding, the more 1 examine them, that I ask no more than that
my unadorned arguments should fall into the hands oi thinking men.

My opponent says that the whole structure of Catholicism is an as-
sumption, and rests upon two ties. The gentleman pledged himself at
the commencement of this debate, to use no opprobrious language, and
I promised not to set him the example. How he has kept his word,
as the terms in which his propusitions are expressed are so very re-
fined, let these, by which they are defended, decide. I will not bandy
epithets with him, but I must say that the Catholic church Has two
sound legs to stand upon. The gentleman tenders her crutches which
she modestly declines, with the suggestion that as his argument is
lame he may have occasion for them himself! I will argue these va-
rious doctrines which he has enumerated and prove them all to be
founded in the bible, and believed, in all past ages, from the time of
Christ and his apostles. The gentleman has misrepresented, or he
does not understand our doctrine. We believe that there is no other
name under heaven, but the name of Jesus given to men, whereby
they may be saved. Acts i v. 12. We believe that ^^ by one oblation
Christ hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" Heb. x. 14.
That atonement by His vicarious sacrifice, if not the first, is one of the
great cardinal doctrines of the Itoman Catholic church, no man who
pretends to any acquaintance wiih that doctrine, will, or can venture
to deny. Christ has paid an all-sufficient price for our ransom. But
do we arraign the sacrifice of Christ of insufficiency, when we sanc-
tify the Sabbath, when we give alms to the poor, when we abstain from

BOMAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 271

evil, when we heii pi-eaching, or go to prayer 1 When St. Paul chas-
tised his body and brought it under subjection, lest, while he preached
to others he should himself become a reprobate, did he believe Christ's
sacrifice incomplete 1 that it needed his supplementary austerities?
Or that the other Apostles should command us, to make sure our election
and vocation by gooH tcorks ; to work out our salvation with fear and
trembling ? No ; God who made us without ourselves, will not save us
■without ourselves. He requires our co-operation, and with his grace
he aids our weak endeavor. This grace he communicates to us by divers
channels, and in various ways. Of these the principal are the seven sa-
craments, which, if I may use the gentleman's figure in its proper appli-
cation, like the seven mouths of the Nile convey the healing waters from
the fountains of the Savior to every portion of the church. The will
is made and recorded. The executors, the apostles and priests of the
church, convey and apply an adequate portion to the wants of men.
Wherever a captive may be presumed to groan in spiritual slavery,
they seek him out, they proclaim to him the glad tidings of his deliv-
erance, they pay, with the treasures of Christ, of which they arc the
depositaries, the price of his ransom ; and this when they find the slave
willing to accept the terms on which redemption is offered, do they
carry into effect, in his behalf, the charitable intentions of the divine
testator. Is this arraigning his bounty, or distributing it as he com-
manded ] Is this robbing Christ of his glory, or calling all nations to
bask in its rays and exult in its eff'ulgence? The Catholic church, in
all the institutions she venerates, the sacraments she administers, the
truths she proclaims, the sacrifices she offers, the prayers she prefers,
the charily she inculcates, the grace she dispenses, acts by the com-
mand of Christ, in the name of (Christ, IViis ix the true and living way
by which she commands all to seek access to the Father, and by Him,
with Him, and in Him, to give to God all honor and glory forever.
He is the sun of the entire system, and all the ordinances of religion,
are but the rays of that sun enlightening and vivifying the christian
pilgrim at every step of his weary progress througli this vale of tears.
Sacrifice, we consider indispensable to religion. It has been offered
to God in every age, by every peoph;, under every form of rfligion.
Abel offered sacrifice in lOdcn, thi- purest firstlings of bis flocks, for he
was a shepherd, ('ain sacrificed the fruits of the earth, for he was a
husbandman. Noah, when the waters of the deluge had subsided,
Solomon, when he dedicatofi the trample, offered sacrifices ; even the
Pagan nalif)ns of the earth, whoch.inged tiie glory of the it)corruptibIe
God, into the likeness of the image of (•orru[)tilile man, and of hirds,
and of four-footed boasts, paid homage to this dirlate of nature, and
continued the rite of sacrifice, however unworthy the olijects of itiola-
try. From all this we rightly infer, that the only perfect religion
should not ha destituto of Hiicrifcc. The scriplure evi'rywhert- tesii-
fies to its necessity. Mehrhisedt'c, as we read in (Jenesis, (i)Vere(i
bread and wine. He was a priest of the most High (iod. Ami David,
in the lUDth Psalm, says of Jesus ('lirist, Kiii(( of Justice, King of
Peace, "The Lord hath sworn, and it shall not repent him, thou art a
priest forever according to the order of MelchiHcdec." When God
abrogates the Jewish dispensation, and subslitules a mw and heller in
its stead, he says to the Jews, by the last of all the prophets, " I have
no pleasure in you, mUIi the Lord nf hoiti ; and I will tuil receive a gift

272 DEBATE ON THE

of your hand ; for from the rising nf the sun even to the going down, my
name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is a sacrifice,
and there is offered to my name a clean (iblatitm ; for my name is great
among the Gentilts, saith the Lord of hos's.''"' Malacliias, ch. 11, 6. v.
When Jesus Clirist, as we read in three Evanffelisls, instituted the
Blessed Eucharist, he said to his apostles, " This my body, which is
offered for you. This is my blood, which is shed for you. Bo this in com-
memoration nf wc."

Catholics obey the injunctions of the Savior, they do what he com-
manded them, they offer the memorial sacrifice, they continue and re-
present the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon Calvary. They offer it
under the forms of bread and wine as Melchisedec had done in figure.
They offer it from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof,
as Malachy had predicted. On Asia's distant plains, under the burn-
ing sun of Africa, in the tangled forests of the western world, as well
as in its new and blooming cities, the sacrifice is offered and the pro-
phecy obtains its glorious accomplishment. If Protestants say they
have the sacrifice of the death of Christ, I answer with our divines,
so had the servants of God, under the law of nature and the written
law; for it is impossible that with the blood of oxen and goats, sin
should be taken away; nevertheless they had perpetual sacrifices to
represent the death of Christ, and to apply the fruits of it to their souls.
In the same manner the Catholics have Christ himself really present,
and mystically offered on their altars daily, for the same ends.

If time permitted, I might call up in review before you those vener-
able bishops and doctors whose blood sealed the doctrine, which their
writings had defended. The saint Johns and the Polycarps of the east
— the Irenaeuses and the Hilaries of the west — those venerable men
whose great age, like that of the patriarchs of old, enabled them to
transmit to their children without fear of error, or multiplying too
much the intermediate links — the traditionary chain of their own and
their forefathers' belief— what they believed and taught themselves
and what was daily practised in those old centurial churches
which we have inherited from them, built many ages before any of
the modern dissentient religions were known, and where the altar and
the cross, the liturgy and the stone from the wall, bore testimony to
the real presence in the Eucharist, to the divinity of the victim that
was offered there in sacrifice ! — [Time expired.]

FRIDAY, January 20. Haf past 9 o'clock, A. M.

Mr. CAMPUELF, risr s —

I did not, in first taking up "The Synopsis of the Moral Theology
of the Roman Church," say aught of its author, or of the causes which
ushered it into existence. But since it has become a matter of so
much debate, I shall state a few things concerning it and its author,
Mr. Smith, the author, was a member of that community for seventeen
years, several of which he officiated as a priest. Convinced of the
errors of that superstition, he publicly renounced it, and is now a Pro-
testant minister, greatly devoted to the cause of Protestantism. From

R03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 273

his intimate acquaintance with the spirit and tendency of the Roman
Catholic institution, he has recently translated a considerable portion
of the works of Saint Ligori. The title of the book is :

"A synopsis of the moral iheolog)' of the church of Rome, taken from the
works of St. Ligori and translated from the Latin into English by SAMUEL B.
Smith, late a pop'ish pritst." iVew York, 1836.

It is further explained in the preface:

" What we present before the public in this synopsis, is a compendious view
of the doctrine of the churith of Rome, now taught m all her schools. It is b
fair and exact translation of selected portions of the voluminous MoRAI. Theo-
I/CGY of St. Alphonsus (!e Ligorio, published at Mechlin in Belgium, svptriO'
rum permissi, in the year 18i8." [Preface, p. 5.

Of its author he speaks thus:

" He was enrolled among the saints, as the title page of his work declares, by
pope i'ius VII. on the 15th of September, in the year 1816." [Pref. p. 6.

It seems that this work is so popular, as to be found in almost
every priest's library, and is quoted by them, as of the highest au-
thority.

"Besides the above testimony in confirmation of the authority of St. Ligori,
we have also that of the Rev. father Valera himself, the popish priest of the city
of New York. This Rev. father Felix Valera, about a year and a half ago, in
his attempt at a refutation of my " renunciation fj" popery," quotes this very*
same Ligori as overwhelming and decisive authority against something which
he found advanced by me." [Prel". p. 9.

In some very important matters, he has given the orio^inal itself;
and fearing, as the manner is, that his translation might be called in
question, he says ;

" If they deny that we have given a fair translation, we will then challenge
them to come forward in a public assembly with tlie works of St. Ligori, when
we promise to meet them, and submit our translation, and the original, to the
inspection of a committee, one half of whom to be chosen by ourselvej, and the
other half by the Roman clergy. Truth never shuns investigation. If we hare
not given a fair, genuine, ana true tinn"lalion, and if we have not exhibited the
doctrines of Ligori and the church of Rome fairly and correctly, without gar-
bling, or giving an crrotieous construction, w- will be willing to incur the con-
sequences that we ought to expect, for having deceived the pulilic." Synop.
Pref. p. 12.

I have given but a sample of this work, though I have made numer-
ous quotations ; only one of which has been challenged by my antag-
onist. That point I touched as liglitly as possible, because unsuited
to a popular assembly. This the gentleman fully understands. I
slurred it over, iti terms the least intelligible which I could select at
the moment : but he has no reason to object even io the comment, that
Mr. Smith puts iijjon the article quoted. He well knows that mar-
riage in the priesthood is instant excommunication ; while concubin-
age is matter of forbearance. In the course of this discussion, I had
occasion to observe, that I fotmd very many canons of the church, even
in the fifth and sixth centuries, on the subject of marriage and its
abuses. This, from the modesty of my exposition, li« took r>rcasion
to use in argumrmi, as proof that the celibacy of the clergy was earl^
introduced. This was a perversion of my observation, which the deli-
cacy of my situation would not allow me to explain. Nor will I now
Bin against my own feelings, or those of my audience, by going full^
into such details. I will only add, that I have a superfluity of evi-
dence in proof of the allegation of Ligori. The casuistry, dissimula-
tion, and immorality of the Jesuits, and the whole genius of the inter-
nal spirit of the papacy, are abundantly attested in tho two works ly-
ing before me: "The Provincial Lcllers," of tho accomplished Pa«-

274 DEBATE O.-V THK

chal, which I have not yet opened in this discussion; and, "Th«»
Secreta Monita of the order of Jesus." This copy, in the original
French, I am informed by the lady through whose kindness I have
been furnished with it, was broutrht to this country by the secretary
of the great and renowned La Fayette, on his last visit to the United
States. This, our national benelactor, who, my opponent says, was
a true Catholic, has declared, tiiat if our liberty should be lost, it will
be by the hands of priests. I saw this fact stated in two papers; one
pnbTishcd in Richmond, the other in New-York ; and I have no doubt
of its correctness.

The Secreta Monita has been a few years since, translated at Prin-
ceton N. J. and is now found in many book-stores in thrs country.
From the perusal of these two volumes, we shall find that the moral
theolo<ry of St. Ligori, the doctrine of Smith's Synopsis, is in per-
fect unison with the true spirit of the Roman clergy and institution.

The gentleman mentioned the disclosures of Maria Monk. I did
not ; because I rely on no such documents. What she says, is private
property ; and there is no occasion for bringing it into this contro-
versy. I have my own opinion of it however : but need not its aid
on this occasion.

The gentleman speaks often of the imperfections and difficulties
of Protestant translations of the bible. He says that we Protestants
are in a deplorable state ; always making new translations, and never,
or not long satisfied witli any of them : and seems to sympathize with
us, as if we were without the scriptures. This pretended condolence,
I only notice because it gives me an opportunity to repeat with em-
phasis, that his church, with all her pretended infallibility, cannot pro-
duce a translation of any sort, in any living language on earth ! With
all the riches, and learning, and infallibility of the Roman hierarchy;
she owns not an English New Testament, authentic or authorized
either by pope or council, or the church diffusive or responsive. How
supremely ridiculous, therefore, for the gentleman to talk of Protes-
tant translations, as imperfect ! How docs he infallibly know that
any one of them is imperfect ] Two infallible editions of the Latin
vulgate have been made by the authority of two popes, not thirty
years distant from each other; and yet they differ in more than 2000
places!!! Sixtus V. issued a bull,- with an anathema, against any
man that would change his authorized vulgate, even in the least par-
ticle, (in minima particula,) yet, Clement VHI. had the audacity,
in despite of said bull, to order a new translation, and did accomplish
it, changing it morethan 2000 times, and sometimes very seriously,
to the amount of clauses, and whole verses, as Dr. James in his Bel-
lum Papale has amply testified. Thus the Clementine vulgate, under
the solemn curse of the Sixtine bull, carries upon it the seal of infal-
libility!

I now invite attention to the subject of yesterday evening. I then
endeavored to state, as briefly as 1 could, the two fundamental errors
on which the Man of sin stands. The first, — That the sacrifice of Je-
sus Christ was not alone sufficient, to put away sin; and the second,
— That persons can do more than their duty. To provoke discussion
on these two great doctrinal lies, I stated that all the peculiar doc-
trines of the Roman Catholic church, viz. penance, purgatory, tran-
substantiation, and all this priestly sacrifice, confession, &c. were

ROilAJr CATHOUC EELIGION. 275

built upon these two doctrinal lies. I shall not further discuss that
subject, till the gentleman agrees to meet me there.

Again, It is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the
" intention''' of the priest, in every act of worship and consecration,
is essential to the validity of that act — that is, that unless the person
ordaining a priest intend to ordain him, all that is done, is of no vali-
dity, however exact the form; because he did not intend in his heart,
to ordain hirn ! So, in consecrating a wafer, without such intention,
its nature is not changed ; and the reception of it, of no value. Such
intention is essential to every act of religion, in which a priest offi-
ciates. The efficacy of all ordinances, is therefore resolved into "the
intention of the priest." He that denies the necessity of this inten-
tion, according to the council of Trent, '• is to be anathema."' This
is therefore, one of the essential doctrines of the church as necessary
to salvation, as the gospel itself; for the rejection of it incurs as
solemn a curse as any one of the hundred anathemas which the coun-
cil of Trent pronounced in confirmation of its decrees. The only
time, the word anathema is used by Paul in the sense of a curse is
in his letter to the Galatians, in respect of corrupting the gospel.
This then, is as essential as the gospel. Who then, let me ask,
can have faith in any of the ceremonies or ordinances, or consecra-
tions of Rome 1 Can any one know the intention in the heart of
a priest or bishop T Nay, indeed, bishop Pu rcell never can prove
to any mortal, that he is truly ordained : nor can any one have any
faith in his services as a bishop, unless he know all hearts, from
Peter's time till now, and could show that the intention was never
wanting from the apostolic age till now, in the ancestorial official
lines. This doctrine lays the axe at the root of all certainty in
every part of the Roman (Catholic religion : for in tlio judgment of
that church multitudes of Iter clergy have proved hypdcriu-s and im-
postors, in whose intentions at any previous time, tliere can there-
fore be no faith. So far as Protestants are concerned, their principles
are perfectly free from this incertitude. Kvery Protestant feels the
most perfect certainty in submitting to th<^ ordinaiiros of religion. 'I'lio
Protestant minister knows and teaches that the ordinance receives no
saving or salutary efficacy from his intentions, or liis hands. Per-
sons, who in faith and piety receive them, know thai they receive all
the efficacy of the ordinance, indcpcndiMit of any special virtue in him
that does administer them.

On the subject of indulgences I shall tourli i)Ut lightly, for 'he
want of time. The rich and profitable trade, wliicli has been carried
on by Rome in the sale of this single arlicio of her merehandizo
is as public as her i}ame. The conspicuity of tliis subjcrt as connect-
ed with the Protestant I?efnrmntion is as fainilinr as the names of Lu-
ther and Tetzel, Jt is a sprout from tlic root of superiTogation, from
the doctrine of human merit — that immense bank ol which tlie clergy
are directors. The intolorable abuRos of that board of direrlors was
the punctum xrilimH of tin- Protttstant RiforuKition. Pope Leo X.
president in that day, wanted to pay off some sixty million of <iollnr8,
incurred and bring incurred for the 8plendi<l edifu-c of St. Peters at
Rome. He published a plenary remission of past sins, and an iiulul-
gence to all contributing to this splendid undirtaking. As a matter of
curiosity and of edification, we sliall hers read th« form of these in-
dulgences.

276 DEBATE ON TB^

" May our Lord Jesus Christ have mercy upon thee, and absolve thee by the
merits of his most holy passion. Ami I, by his nuthority, tliat of his blessed
apostles, Peter and I'auf, and tliat of the most holy pope, granted and commit-
ted to me in these parts, do absolve thee, first from all ecclesiastical censure, in
whatever manner they have been incurred, then from all thy sins, transgres-
sions, and excesses, how enormous soever they may be; even from such as are
reserved for the cognizance of the holy see, and as far as the keys of the holy
church extend. I remit to you all punisliracnt T\hich you deserve in purgatory
on their account; and I restore you to the holy sacraments of the church, to the
unity of the faithful, and to that innocence and purily which you possessed at
baptism: so that when you die, the gates of punishment shall be shut, and the
gates of paradise shall be opened; and if you shall not die at present, (his grace
shall remain in full force, when you are at the point of death. In the name of
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." [Controversy between Messrs.
Huffhes and Breckenridpe, p. 243.

All we have said with regard to the power and pretensions of Rome
in granlinrr indulgences, is substantiated, and more than substanti-
ated by this document, for in anticipation of the future, even to death,
and in death, the absolving power, or grace, was to continue. I will
also add, the doctrine of the creed of pope Pius IV.

"The council of 'J'rent teaches that " wlioever shall airnni that when the
grace of justification is received, the ori'ence of the penitent sinner is so forgiv-
en, and the senicnce of eternal punishment so reversed, that there remains no
temporal punishment to be endured, before his entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, either in this world, or in the future statt- in jjurgatory: let him be ac-
cursed." Id. lb. same p.

Perhaps we should also hear, in this place, the council of Trent :

It is also an article of faith in the creed of Pius IV. " that the power of in-
dulgences was left by Christ to his church, and tliat the use of them is very help-
ful to christian people.'' [Ground of Catholic Doc. p. 71. 72.

Once more :

Bellarmine, that great cardinal of the Roman Catholic church (to show that
he died in the faith he willed half of his soul to the Virgin Mary and the other
half to her son) — Bellarinlne in his bo jk on indulgences heads the second and
third clia[)ters thus: " That there exists a certain treasury in the church, which
i* the foLindatioii of indulgences; that the church has the power of appUing this
treasury of satisfactions, and thus of granting iri'inlgences."

I will not branch out on this subject farther, unless the gentleman
agrees to meet me on the facts and documents just now submitted. To
prove the immoral tendency of such indulgences, would, indeed, be a
work of supererogation, if such a work were at all possible.

On the subject of transubstantiation, the creed of pope Pius IV. de-
cides as follows :

Article xvi. " I do also profess, that in the mass thei^ is offered unto God a true,
proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and the dead; and that, in the
most holy sacrament of the holy eucharist, there is truly, really, and substantially,
the body and blood, together with the soul and the divinity of our Lord Jesus
Christ; and that there is a conversion made, of the whole substance of the bread
into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood; which
Conversion the holy Catholic church calls TRA^■SUI!STA^TIAT10N."

'•The church of Rome declares that, upon the priest's jnonouncing these
words, hoc est corpus mevm, (this is my bo'!y.) the bread and wine in the eu-
charist are instantly transubstantiated into the natural Ijody and blood of Christ;
the species or accidents only of the bread and wine leinaining. Christ is offered
as often as the sacrifice of the mass is celebrated. Solitary masses, wherein the
priest communicates alone, are approved and commended; and the council of
Trent declares that whosoever sailh they are unlawful and ouglit to be abrogat-
ed or abolished, is accur.>ed." [View of Ml Religions, coiiijiilid and selected
from the best authorities by Thomas Tiohbins, minister of the gospel in east
Windsor, Conn. Hartford 1826, p. 25.

It is always right to attack a doctrine in the words of those who

ROilAN CATHOLIC BELIGIO.f . 277

profess it. Every cardinal doctrine of the papacy can be traced to a
certain period, when it became an element of the system.

Monachism began to be taught by St. Anthony in the 4th century.

Auricular confession in the 5ih ; but was finally established by In-
nocent III. early in the 13tb century.

Theoretical purgatory began to be spoken of from the Pagans and
Jews in the 6th century; but did not obtain a fixed residence till in
the council of Florence, it became an integral part of infallibility
A. D. 1430.

Farly in the 7th century the idea of universal father, or pope ob-
tained.

In the 8th centurj', after many and various fortunes, images bc^an
to be set up ; and in the Olh became an integral part of Roman Catho-
licism.

In the year 730, a council summoned by Leo. III. with only one
dissenting vote, called the worship of images and relics idolatry.

Celibacy among the clergy began to be canonical in the 11th cen-
tury.

In the 9th century, the doctrine of transubstantiation began to be
talked of commonly ; but was made iufiliible by pope Innocent III.
4th Lateran council.

Scotus, of Roman Catholic memory, affirmed that it was not an
article of faith before the Lateran council of 1215, and that it cannot
be proved from scripture. Bellarminc, Book iii. chap. 23, on the Eu-
charist, quotes Scotus as saying so, and admits, " thougli the scrip-
tures <iuoted last above, seems clear to us, and ought to ronvince any
man that is not forward ; yet, it may justly be doubted, wliellier it be
po, (proved by scripture,) when the most learned and acute men, such
as Scotus, in particular, held a contrary o])inion." (Cardinal Cajetan,
Ochan, and Ijishop Fislior, cum multix alii.f, bold the same opinion.

Among Protestants, the reason and authority of rtligiDus belief and
practice, is, "Thus saith the Lord." It is not important to ascertain
when any opinion or practice began, ncr who introduced it; but if it
be not in the nini.K, no matter how ancient it may be. It wants apostolic
eanction, for the a[)ostlcs sanction only what was written and ordained
before their death. St. Clement, and St. Ignatius, nnd St. Ireiui-us,
and all the other sainta in the Uoman calendar, were born too late to
sanction any article of faith, or morals, by their vote.

But a few wortls on transubstantiation. " A sarramrnt,^* says tho
chiirf^h, " is an outward and visible sign of some inward and spiritual
grace." Now, it cannot he both the sign and the thing signified. If,
then, the Eucharist be a sacrament, it cannot be true that it is the
body and blood of Christ transubstanliaU-d. Rome ought, then, to
strike it from her list of sacraments.

Unt Jesus gave the eucliarist for a kIi^u, a keepsake, a memorial of
his love. It iH, then, a commemorative! institution, as well as a sign
of New Testament blessings: "Do this in reniembranre (f me."
Like other tokens of love, it has inscribed upon it the name of thn
donor. As was said of the passover ; it is the Lnrd'n passmrr .■ ho say*
Jesus, *' this m nn/ liodi/.''^

Now, as all words have a literal and fnnirative meaning, the only

Jucslion here is, Are these words to be taken literally or fignrativelv 1
f literally, some good reason must be offered: and what is ill Be-
cause some father, popo, or council so decided 1 ^Ve must have the
Y

278 DEBATE ON THE

reason -which authorised them, else their decision is a mere assump-
tion.

Where shall that reason be found 1 Is it because Jesus always so
speaks, tliat he must be thus understood 1 Then I contend, that when
he said, *■'• I am tlie doory'' he was literally transubstantiated into a
door ; and when he said, " / am the bread which came down from
heaven," he was converted into bread ; and when he said, '■'■lam the
true vhie,^^ he was literally changed into ave:i\ vhic. And why noli
Is it more irrational, marvelous, incredible, than that "this loaf is
my body," should mean that this loaf was converted into his body,
and changed into flesh; and that while the apostles were eating the
loaf, they were eating the living flesh of him that stood before thern 1 !
If, then, the bishop assumes a literal interpretation in the one case ; I
assume it in these and various other passages. For, if he may assume
eid libitum, so may I ; and so may every one else ; and then what
comes of the certainty of language ] It is, then, without law, precedent,
or authority, to assume the very point in debate ; and to say, that be-
cause it reads this is my body, it moans that bread is converted into flesh.

This style, of the passage in dispute, is very common in both the
Old and New Testaments. So early as the time of Joseph, we read
" the seven good kine are seven years," — and " the seven good ears are
seven years." What a Iransubstantiation ! But change are into re-
present, which is its meaning, in a thousand places, and all is plain.

Again : says Jesus, " Destroy this temple," pointing to his body,
" The field is the world — the reapers are the angels." — Are these,
also, transubstantiations ? Paul also speaks thus, when he says of the
rock Horeb, " that rock tvas Christ." And John the apostle, " the
seven stars are seven angels;" "the seven candlesticks are seven
churches." And what is the difference between these phrases, and
" this is my body V — but finally on this part of the subject, Jesus
said of the cup, "this cup is the New Testament." Does not that,
on the bishop's premises, prove that the cup was changed into the
New Testament? ! But, if by pronouncing over a loaf the words of
consecration a priest has power to change bread into flesh, and wine
into blood, he has, indeed, a power truly miraculous and divine ; and
works as many miracles in the whole course of his life as he says
masses. A claim to such a divine, supernatural, and extraordinary
power, ought not to be claimed upon an arbitrary, capricious, and
whimsical interpretation of a word ! Good reasons ought to be offered
by any man, who passes himself on the community, as possessing
power equal to quickening the dead and suspending the laws of nature.

Once more, for the present : If, you believe the priest and receive
the bread as flesh, you never after can with reason believe your own
senses : for, when your eye declnres it i)read, and your senses of
smelling, tasting, feeling, and I might add, your hearing — all declare
that it is still bread and not flesh — If, I say, you can, contrary to your
own senses, which God has given you as the means of knowledge
and certainty, thus implicitly believe the declaration of a priest; you
are disqualified for reasoning, for believing the christian religion, or
your own senses on any subject of which they are witnesses. So
that it may be truly said, he that believes in transubstantiation, can
rationally believe in nothing else. All the christian miracles, were
to be believed — not because they were contrary to the evidence of J
sense ; but because they were in accordance with that evidence.

R03LV:i CATHOLIC KKLIGIO:*. 279

I cannot argue this point with any sort of ability. I cannot feel in
earnest. I seem to myself as if I were reasoning against a thing
which no person believed ; and I never ctuld with any sort of spirit,
discuss a matter, unless there was some little show of plausibility,
or shadow of reason in it. The doctrine of transubstantialion is so
absurd, that I do not know that I ever read a tract through against it in
my life. But this subject gives such glory to the priests and has
wrought such miracles upon the superstitious crowd, that it is worth
more to sustain the priesthood, than all the other six Roman sacra-
ments. And that which causes this most incredible of all things, to
be devoured by such multitudes is, that it expiates sin. Hence the
body of Christ is daily eaten by hundreds of thousands, as a sin of-
fering together with " his soul and divinity," as decided I)y the coun-
cil of Tcent ! The Messiah is then always suffering, always bleed-
ing, always dying, always expiating sin by the sacrifice of himself;
and his people are always literally devouring his llesli ! What a pic-
ture!! I shall turn away from it; for my soul sickens at the tliuught.

Protestants know that the sin of forgetfuluess is tiic easily beset-
ting sin of mortals ; and that they need commemorative institutions.
Hence, they highly appreciate the honor of having a Lord's table, a
Lord's supper, a holy communion and fellowship, through these sa-
cred emblems of a Savior's love. "'I'he loaf, which we break," says
the apostle, "is it not the conmiunion of the body of Christ 1 The
cup over which we give thanks, is it not the communion, or the joint
participation of his blood V — Hence, the New Testament with its
spiritual and heavenlj' blessings is always contemplated, realized, and
remembered with holy thankfulness in the christian assemblies, while
they partake of the sacred emblems of that great sacrifice, " once of-
fered for the sins of many. For by one offering up of himself, he has
forever perfected them who are sanctified."

Having yet remaining a few minutes, I shall prepare the way for
the introduction of my seventh proposition. Having touched at the
roots of all the? j)rinci[)al cornijitions, and ir.wingyct iieard nothing in
reply, I will anticipate that proposition with a lew remarks on the p;i-
pistical notion of a ju<lge of controversy.

The council of Trent decreed " that the oral traditions of the Cath-
olic church," (meaning the Roman) "are to In- received, ;)«;•/ pictatis
ajfeclri ac rcvrrntlia .lunn'/iit ac vttirritttir, — with cciual |)iely ami rever-
ence as the books of the Old and .New 'I'cstanieiit." — Counc-il f)f Trent
4th session.

Then she asserts : " It belongs to the church to judge of the true
sense and interpretation of scri|)ture; and tliat no person shall dare
to interpret it in matters rehiting to filth and manners to any sense
contrary to that which the ehureh has held, or contrary to the unani-
mous consent of the fitherH." — Ih. Id.

And aceording to lh(; S.Trd article of tlie creed of nope I'iusIV.
"I do acknowle<lge th<! Holy Catholji- and Apostolic Koman church
to he the mother and mistress of all elnirches; and I <lo |)romise and
swear true ohedienee to llir' bishop fif {{onii-, the surressor of I'etrr,
the j)rince of the apostles, and the vicar of Christ."

Here then, wc have the essenflal elements of mental slavery and
degradation : for, if no person r/wrr to interpret the Scriptures contra-
ry to what the church has alniidy held, or ti thn unanirnouH cotisent
of the Fathers; where is that liberty of thought and speech and ac-

280 DEBATE ON THE

tion, on the most important of all subjects, our moral and religious re-
lations, without which, liberty is without meaning, and mental inde-
pendence but a name 1

In all monarchies, save that of Rome and Mahomet, a judge is not
constitutionally a judge of his own case. But the Roman judge of
controversy is the whole church, says my learned opponent, and her
councils affirm with him. The whole church judging then between
what parties? Herself and the heretics !! What a righteous, infal-
lible and republican judge, is the supreme judge of controversy in the
Catholic church ! The controversy is between two parlies — the church,
or the clergy, on one side ; and the heretics or the reformers on the
other, as they may happen to be called ; say the church and the here-
tics. And who is umpire, who is supreme judge of bothi One of
the parties, indeed, the church herself! This is the archetype — the
beau ideal, of civil liberty, and republican government, in the supreme
Roman hierarchy. It will not help it to place the ermine on the pope.
He is that instant exparte judge. And besides, he is executive of,
the church. If the pope is to be judge, and executive, and lawgiver,
in the case as he frequently is, what a splendid picture of a republi-
can president or judge have we got in the Roman church !

This ghostly despotism is to be sustained and defended too, by the
whole church, by vows, oaths, and pledges, the most solemn and bind-
ing that religion can suggest, or human ingenuity devise. It is true she
governs by her bishops. The popes make bishops, on the recommen-
dation of bishops, and these bishops serve the pope and govern the
people. Their oath, which is the same in all countries, 1 will now
read, — so far at least, as relates to this matter. I have the original,
and different translations of it, and if it be disputed, I am prepared to
sustain it. To reconcile it to the genius of our institutions, and to the
safety and happiness of our country, will require .the explanations and
reasonings of my friend.

" I, IV. elect of the church of N. from henceforward will be faithful and obe-
dient to St. Peter the Apostle, and to the holy Roman church, and to our lord,
the lord N. Pope N. and his successors, canonically coining in. I will neither
advise, consent, or do an}' thing that they may lose life or member, or that their
persons may be seized, or hands any wise laid upon them, or any injuries offered
to them, under any pretence whatsoever. The counsel which ihey shall intrust
to me withal, by themselves, their messengers, or letters, I will not knowingly
reveal to any to their prejudice. I will help them to defend and keep the Ro-
man papacy, and the royalties of St. Peter, saving my order, against all men. The
legate of the apostolic see, going and coming, I will honorably treat and help.
in his necessities. The rights, honors, privileges, and authority of the holy Ro-
man church of our I^ord the Pope, and his foresaid successors, I will endeavor
to preserve, defend, increase, and advance. -I will not be in any counsel, action,
or treaty, in which shall bo plotted against our said lord, and the said Roman
church.'any thing to the hurt or prejudice of their persons, right, honor, state,
or power; an<l if I shall know any such thing to be treated or agitated by any
whatsoever, I will signify it to our said lord, or to some other by whom it may
come to his knowledge. The rules of the holy Fathers, the apostolic decrees,
ordinances, or disposals, reservations, provisions, and mandates, I will observe
with all my might, and cause to be observed by others. Heretics, schismatics,
and rebels to our said lord, or his foresaid successors, I will to my utmost power
persecute and oppose."

The Latin of the last sentence of which reads :

" Hereticos, schismaticos, et rebelles, eideni domino nostro vel successoribus
pnedictis pro posse persequar et impugnabo." — [Pontificate Roman. Edit. Ant-
werp. A. I). 1626.

Here then is the most solemn pledge and vow given by every bishop

ROJIAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 281

vf Rome, that he will to the utmost of his power persecute and destroy
heretics and schismatics.' Does not this indisputable fact, alone, sus-
tain my seventh proposition, and prove that the genius of the Latin
church is anti- American and essentially opposed to the existence of all
free insiiiuliofls I [Time expired.]

Ha'fpast 10 o'clock, Jl, M.
Bishop Pcrcei.l rises —

You perceive, my friends, that there is scarcely a single tenet of the
Roman Catholic faith, which my friend has not brought into view
this morning. How then am I to escape the charge of desultoriness,
in following such an argument? The whole category, from Alpha to
Omega, shoots up before mc, shifting with the rapidity of lightning.
It is the necessary effect of the confusion of my learned friend's ideas,
and of the order in which he arranged the propositions whose discuS'
sion was to call thnm forth. The very first of these propositions — the
first word of it — Holy — would have called up for discussion all we
have heard on the immorality of the church. As my friend thought
fit to commence as he has done, order and method continue to be ex-
iled from this debate. He selected the points of attack and tlie plan of
campaign; let him not charge on me his own blunders, which he sees
now, too late. There was one great question which he should have
determined, a /t/ni;jc ,• it would have cutoff all this desultory argu-
mentation. It is this. Did Jesus Christ establish an infallible tribu-
nal to determine the meaning of scripture ! If so, we are bound by its
decisions. If not, the whole Catholic religion fails to the ground.
Now, my friends, I endeavored to prove that Christ did establish such
a tribunal, and I defy any one to bring from the Bible proof to the
contrary. One text alone is sufHcienl to put this mailer at rest for
ever. "The churcli is the pillar and ground of the truth." I began
to enforce my argument, when my time expired, and my friend seemed
unwilling to let slip the opportunity, but got up immedialoly, and said
that my last observations of yesterday were unworthy of notice.

He brought as a parallel to the words, '* I am with ycu ail days eren
to the end of the world," the customary ancient salutation, " the Lord be
with you ;" and argued from this, that Christ's words mean no more than
that! But, my friends, what point of comparison is there between the
words, " (iod be with ynu," which one frail man addresses to anotlier,
and the words, the solemn promises of the Savior, conmiissioning his
apostles to preach his gospel, and cheering their despondency by the
divine assuruiifp, " Behold, I am with you all days oven to the end of
the world ?" Arc the two cases the same 1 Are we not more sure
that (Christ is with his church forever, than we are of the effect of the
salutation of a poor fallible man? What Christ does is infallible;
what he says will come to pass. If his church was to fail, we should
have had an assurance to that iiflTuct in the Bible. There is none. If
his church was to fail, we Rhould have had miraculous displays like
that of Sinai, and of the descent of the Holy ( Jhost at IVntrrost, mark-
ing the eomMiciicement of a new era. Or ('hrist would have come
an-ain upon earth, rebuked and banished error, and restored the primi-
tivo lustre and beauty of truth. This has not been done, nor ha« such
a prophecy been any where made. As ('hrist, by one oblation, has
perfected thoso that wcfc to be sanctified for ever ; so has he by one
r 2 30

2S2 UEBATfi O.N THK

revelation, assured us of divine truth in relijrion for over. The work
of God then, necdfd no ntonnation. If men's morals were bad, they
should have been corrected, but religion should not have been chantred.
In a word, as Bishop Smith of Kentucky, has so well said, " Reform-
ation should have taken place in the church, not out of it." Let niy
friend twist the words of Christ as he pleases, he can find nothing like
them in human lany;uagc. Christ was God and his word is wiiat it
purports to be. lie is with his church all days, until the consumma-
tion of ages. The heavens and the earth may pass away, but his
word will never pass away. The worse we become, the more refrac-
tory and insubordinate, the farther from apostolic times and fervor and
purity, the more need iiave we of authority to control us. So that the
power of the church to maintain unity of faith, which Christ so much de-
sired for his disciples, is, at least, as necessary now as it hag ever been.
The necessity of submitting to the church does not destroy liberty,
■while, on the contrary, the sources of error arid contentions, amonjr
sects which undertake to judge for themselves, are endlessly multi-
plied. Christ foresaw the time when even the apostles would dis-
pute. He knew the itching of the Greeks for novelty, and their prone-
ness to disputation — always learning and never coming to the truth —
tearing down to-day, and building up to-morrow: one wave of error
and doubt following another, and washing away every doctrine, and
creed, and sect, in its turn ; and he therefore said : " Hear the church."

My friend argued in the commencement of this controversy, that
since there were as good men among Protestants as among Catholics,
why should there be any argument] Let him answer that question
since he is the challenger. I cheerfully admit the fact, but what is
the inference ] Why that those Protestants were better than their
principles. Every man who follows out the Protestant principles may
be bad. He may find /lis own code of morals as well as his doctrinal
code, in the Bible. Because if he choose to interpret the Bible for
himself, in morals as well as in faith, he may argue from it in favor of
the lawfulness of any thing he pleases. And is it not true that certain vi-
cious acts are done by some men on the pretence of their being allowed
by scripture] I could adduce hundreds of instances of the strong and
terrible delusions and crimes, for which their victims persuaded them-
selves they found a sanction in the Bible. And if the sincerely pious,
the humane and charitable of Protestant communions ask them-
selves the question: "are the virtues I strive to practice, the fruits of
my religion]" they would find that tiieir peculiar tenets have no in-
fluence on their conduct. Their piety and the purity of their morals
are the effects of naturally good dispositions, of virtuous associations,
of principles, which they hold in common with Catholics, a reverence
for the divinity and a desire for future happiness, a sense of honor, de-
corum, propriety, &c.

In this kind of virtue even pagans have been eminent, but their
virtue is no proof of the goodness of their religion. Aristidcs was
just, Scipio chaste, Regulus patriotic, Plato sober, Cincinnatus
unambitious, Titus, the delight of the human race, and Antoninus,
pious — and yet they were all idolaters ! There are, thank heaven, con-
servative principles in man's bosom, which correct in conduct, what
is wrong in principle. But if we sincerely desire to know the fruits
of the reformation, wo have only to ask its authors. Hear, then, what

nO.MAX CATHOLIC BBLIGION. 283

Luther was compelled to acknowledge upon this subject. " We see,"
says he, in his sermon the 2nd Sunday in Advent, " that throug^h the
malice of the Devil, men are now more avaricious, more cruel^ more
disorderly, more insolent, and much more wicked, than they were
under popery." " If any one wish, says Musculus, to see a multitude
of knaves, disturbers of the public peace, &c. let him go to a city, where
the gospel is preached in its purity, (he means a reformed city) for
it is clearer than the light of day, that there- never were pagans
more, vicious and disorderly, than those professors of the gospel."
»• The thing," says Melancthon, " speaks for itself in this country
among the reformed ; their whole time is devoted to intemperance and
drunkenness, (immanibus poculis). So deeply are the people sunk
into barbarity and ignorance, that many of them would imagine they
should die in the night, if they should chance to fast in ilie day."
Ad capt. vi. Mat. Neither was the growth of vice and ignorance con-
fined to Germany. 'J'hey grew wherever the seeds of the reformation
were permitted to take root. " In this nalion^' (England) says Stubbs,
after he had made the tour of the island, " I found a ^cntrul decay of
pood luorhs, or rather a plain dffcrlinn, or fallin^j; auay frtim Gorf."
(Motives to good works, An. loDO.) But hear how the .(dequenl
Erasmus describes the fruits of the reformation, lie was indeed a
Catholic, but a Catholic whom the Protestants allow to have been
impartial. He was an eye and ear witness to the introduction and
progress of the reformation, observed its workings witii tb.e ej'e cf a
philosopher, and has marked tluin down with tlic accuracy of a can-
did and correct iiistorian. "And who," he says, " are the gospel
people 1 Look around you and shew me any who has become a bet-
ter man. Show me one who, once a glutton, is now turned sober, one
who, before vioh-nt, is now meek ; one who, before avaricious. Is
now generous; one who, before impure, is now chaste; — 1 can puinl
out nmlliludes, who have l)ccome far worse than they were bclbre. In
their assemblies, you never sec any of them iieave a sigh ; slicd a
tear; or strike his breast, even on the days that are sacred to allliction.
Their discourses arc little else, but calumnies against tlie jiriesthood.
'i'luy have abolished confession, and f( w of tlun confess tluir sins
even to (Jod. Tiny have abrogated fasting; and they wallow in
sensuality. They have become Epicureans, for f<ar of lieing Jews.
They have cast otf the yoke of human institutions; and along with
it, they have shaken (.ff the I^ord. So far from being submissive to
bisliops, they arc> (lisol)edii iit to the civil niagistrates. What tumults
and seditions mark tluir eonduetl For what trilles do they (ly to
arms I St. Paul commanded the first christians to shun llie si'Ciety
of the wicked ; and l)ehold ! tlie reformers seek most the snriely of
the most corrupted. These are their deliglit. The gospel now flourish-
es forsootli ! bfcause priests and monks take wives in opi)f.sition lo
human laws and despite of their sacred vows. Own it is tidiv to ix-
change evils for evils, and niadnesH to exchange Huiail evils (or great
ones." Ep. 47. Lib. .31. John Wesley sayH, speaking of bis own
lime not one hundred and fifty years ago, ^^ .1 dimtipnlnl a^r (such
as i« the present perhaps beyond all (hat ever were, at ieasl that arn
recorded in history) is an a^e wherein (iod is generally forgotten.
And n dimijuiird tinlinn, (such an England is at present, in n superla-
tive degree) is a nation, a vaht majority of which has not God 'in all
their thoughts.' Wc therefore speak an unfjucstionablo truth, when

284 DEnATE ON THE

we say, there is not on the face of the earth another nation (at least
that we have ever heard of) so perfeetly (Ussipalcd and uns^odly ,- not
only so totally without God in the work!, hut so openly setting him
at defiance. There never was an age, that we read of in history, since
Julius Csesar, since Noah, since Adnni, wherein dissipation or un-
godliness did so generally prevail, both among high and low, rich and
poor." Neither would it be well in a Protestant, in order tn apologise
for the disorders, which I have mentioned, to sny — '-that they were
only the accidental evils of a moment, evils of a period of change
and fermentation." What ! the first fruits of a reformation disorder !
— the first fruits of a system of piety licentiousness! — the first fruits
of the rcestablishment of the law of truth, impiety ! Surely such an
apology, and yet it is often made, is absolutely weak ! There are multi-
plied attestations of it. "• Miserable,'''' says Neal, speaking of the time
of Elizabeth, and when the fermentations of the revolutionary vio-
lence of the reformation had subsided, '■'■miserable and heal henish was
the condition nf the country in regard to religion.'''' That you may
form some notion of their condition, hear in what manner the inhabi-
tants of London, in a petition presented to the parliament during this
reign, express themselves. " In one half our churches," they say,"" we
have watchmen that have no eyes ; and clouds that have no water ;
and in the other half, there is scarcely one tenth man that takes con-
science to wait on his charge. Whereby, the Lord's day is often to-
tally neglected ; ignorance increaseth, and wickedness comcth upon
us like an armed man." "In the couuty of Cornwall," Neal says,
"there were at this period a hundred and forty clergymen, not one of
whom could preach a sermon." The situation of other counties was
nearly similar. .Judge of the conse(|ucnces. I liave here the autiien-
tic documents, Luther's and Wesley's works, to ])rove what 1 have
cited. Here is the great father of the reformation ; with Melaucthon
at his side, both very unghoslly looking p(!rsonages, on their lenecs, be
fore an image of the crucifix !! (Holds up a large and old volume, and
describes a circle, with his person, exhibiting the pictured title page, -nt
■which there was continued laughter.) 'I'his edition was published by
Lawrence Schenck at Witiemberg, in 15ol. Here is image worship
by Martin Luther and his co-reformer ! and beasts, and monsters all
around them. Mr. C. says that the popes might have been much
worse men than he has described them. Tlint bad acts are soon for*
gotten, and good ones more apt to be ebroniflod. 'I'his is, unfortu-
nately, not the case, as history but too well attests. 'J'iie virtues are too
unobtrusive to attract public notice, and Shakspeare, who was a
close observer of human nature, says : If I can quote him correctly ;

"Tlie <vil, tli:it 111(11 (Jo, liv.s i.fUr tliciii ;
The {;o.')d is oil interred willi tlieir l):ii;(s."

I am sorry to say, my friends. Professor Biggs informs me, that
want of time has prevented him from examining the works of Liguori,
in reference to my opponent's accusation, based^upon this book. There
is a gentleman of learning and integrity, in this city, who is not a Ca-
tholic, Mr. Alexander Kinmont, who will devote some time to it, and
who will be here at half-past four, P. M. and give us the requisite in-
formation. I again say, 1 hope a large audience will be present at the
detwuernenl. My friend told us he slurred over what was worst in the
charges against Catholics. He has taken a new mode of doing this.
He has, indeed, said the worst, and helps it by a vague, but not a slur-

KOMAX CATHOLIC EELIGION. 2S5

ring insinuation, that there is more. His translation would make the
fallen priests' sin as bad as that of the Corinthian that afflicted by his
scandalous crime the fervent christians of antiquity, instead of being
of a different and less heinous kind. 1 appreciate his motives. The
charge is, as I have already stated — the church punishes severely for
the slijThtesl fault, and excommunicates the impenitent offender, giving
him up to the civil tribunal, for the punishment, in such cases, inflicted
in some countries by the law of the land.

He says, we find from the decrees of councils, that scandal has
existed in the church. It is true; and it is also true that Christ pre-
dicted its existence. What is the world but the theatre of falsehood
and truth 1 a field of tares and wheat ?

As for the other volume which the gentleman has brought up, the
Secrela Monita of the Jesuits, I pronounce it an infamous forgery. It
has been proved a hundred times, that no priest had any hand in that
document. " The Monita Secreta, or private instructions, a publica-
tion sometimes brought forward against the Jesuits," says the learned
Charles Butler, of Lincoln's Inn, "is a most infamous work, and
wholly beneath notice. Neither the original, nor any certified copy
of this work, was ever produced; no circumstances respecting its dis-
covery, ever proved ; no collateral fact, to establish its authenticity,
ever published. There does not live the Jesuit, or the scholar of a
Jesuit, who, if any one of the doctrines which it inculcates, or any
one practice which it recommends, were proposed to him, would not
spurn it with indignation." Francis Xavier was a Jesuit; our first
archbishop, Carroll, was a Jesuit; they were both worthy of being
numbered among the best of men, and it was true, noX for <^ed, instruc-
tions that madelhem so. The copy of this notorious slander, on one
of the most virtuous, learned, and apostolic societies tiiat have ever
existed, the gentleman informs us, was brought to this country from
France by the secretary of La Fayette! and what was the religion of
this secretary 1 A Jacobin, an infidel, one of tiie anti-christian con-
spirators, that would iiavc Idoltid all denominations of the followers
of Jesus, as well as tbe Catholic, from the whole world 1 \\y priests,
it it well known, that such men meant ministers of every creed ;
and against all, but chiefly against those best able by learning and
virtue to ronfiund them, was their hostility directed.

A greater than La Fayctle, as a statesman, I mean Thomas Jeffer-
lon, said of the Presbyterians, — "Their ambition and tyranny would
tolerate no rival if they had power. 'I'lie I'resbyt.-rian clergy are iho
loudest, the most intolerant, of all sects, the most tyrannical and am-
bitious; ready at the word of the lawgiver, if mch a word could now
he obtained, to put the torch to the pile, and to rekindle in this virgin
hemisphere the flames in which their oracle, '("alvin, consuniod the
poor Servetus, because he could not subscribe the proposition of Cal-
vin, that magistrates have a right to exterminate all heretics to llio
Calvinistic creed. They pant to re-establish by law, that Holy Lupii-
fiilion, which they can now only infuse into j)ulilie opinion." p. .'fvJ2,
letter to William Short. Will my friend take this lediimony to the
letter? Jefferson had more opportunities for judfrin;^ than La Fayetl*,
and he knew this country bettor. Hut, sir, I ncrcc with La Fayette,
that ail priests are to be dreaded in this sense ; that none of them should
be allowed a particle of political ascendency in this country. Our

280 DEBATE ON THE

main danger is from ambitious priests of various denominations. When
lliey confine themselves to their only sphere of usefulness, they are
the best friends of mankind; when they depart from it, 'he worst ty-
rants of the darkest ages of Paganism were not more; intolerant tliaii
they. A hyena is a lamb, to a minister of Christ, who casts oiT the
livery and the peaceful spirit of his master, and turns round to denounce
and abuse his fellow-men for obeying the saored dictates of conscience,
and adhering to a religion, which, no matter how much persecuted and
calumniated, they believe to be divine. I could say much more on this
subject, but it is not the most suitable time.

The charge has been made against all denominations, but my oppo-
nent has singled from amono- them the Catholic, and made it the
scape-goat, to bear the sins of all to ol)livion. I must however re-
mind the audience that the Methodist conference, held, not so many
years ago, at Baltimore, denounced the Episcopalians, for contempla-
ting an alliance with England, to subvert the liberties of this coun-
try; and alleged what they conceived to be no mean proof of trea-
sonable designs on the part of the, then, obnoxious Episcopalians.
This prescriptive spirit is as old as Christianity. History informs
us that the inoffensive disciples of Jesus Christ, even in the golden
age of the apostles, were accused, convicted, and put to the most hor-
rible death, precisely on the charge of hatinis; all mankind" odio hu-
mani generis convicti sunt. Tacitus Annal. lib. xv. This celebra-
ted historian terms the ciiristians " sontes, reos, novissima exemjjla
meritos — perflagitia invisos," and calls their religion itself" exitialis
superstitio." They were, consequently, dressed in the skins of wild
beasts, and thus caricatured, the Pagans set their dogs upon them
.lesus Christ, himself, when the .Tews could convict him of no crime,
was charged by them with not bcimr a friend to Cwsar — Pilate, who
'found no fault ' in Christ, was willing to release him, but the Jews
cried out, " if thou release this man, thou art not Caesar's friend ;"
that moment the just one sank, oppressed beneath the malice and slan-
der of his enemies! We, as his disciples, can ex])ect no better fate
than our master's. He foretold all that now befalls us. " Blessed
are you," says he, '• when men shall revile you and persecute you,
and speak all manner of evil against you, untruly, for my sake : be glad
and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven." St. INIatth.
V. 11, 1-J.

We have, the gentleman says, no authentic translation of the scrip-
tures. This is not true. We have a Latin translation, the vnlgate.
That is one authentic translation. We have, moreover, an approved
translation in the vernacular, sanctioned by aJl the bishops in the
United States, and for sale in every city in the union. But if, by an
authentic bible, we mean ene perfeftly immaculate, in point of typo-
graphical execution and mechanical neatness, I ask the gentleman,
can he pretend that any Protestant denomination has such a one ?
Yet my friend says, notwithstanding the facts I quoted yesterday
morning, respecting a new bible, that they have a bible that is sufli-
cient. If that is the case, where is the use of a new translation ! He
speaks of Sixtus' and Clement's bible. That only shews that the
popes never taught that their personal opinions were to be received,
as articles of faith, as my friend would persuade us they did. Pri-
vate authority should not presume to alter the authorised version.
This wag the amount of the prohibition.

EOJIAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 287

Now to post the books with my friend on the subject of the bible,
I ask him if he was not infatuated, for I really cannot call it by any
other name, when he said he could show us a bible never soiled by
the thumb of a monk, and took us rigiit into the midst of twenty two
inonasleries, on mount Athos,/«r Iht pronf? Home in his Inlroduclion
to the study of the Bible, vol. 1. p; 22-2, quotes Oudin and Michaclis,
for the opinion that it was written by an Aecinet — and written too, say
Burbcr and Wetstein, for a church or a monastery. Hornc says the Aec-
mets were a class of rnonks in the ancient church, who flourished partic-
ularly in the east in the fifth century. They were so called, because
they had divine service performed without interruption, in their
churches. They divided themselves into three bodies, each of which
officiated in turn, and relieved the other so that their churches were
never silent either night or day. This very Mss. Codex Alexandrinus,
in the British ."Museum, contains a list of the Psalms sung by these
monks !

My friend says that our getting the bible from monks, docs not
leave us beholden to them for its spirit. This is a disingenuous eva-
sion. I did not say that it did, but this last rjuestion belongs to quite
another category. .My opponent says that tlic bible, like the univeise,
must testify to its own divine origin — it is the work of God. In this
he is completely at issue with one of the most enlightened Protestants
of the day, bishop Smith, of Kentucky. " These christians," says
the bishop, in his review of Van Dyck on christian union, " have done
well in ao^reeing upon those sound prini-ipks of investigation which
lead them to substantial, and sufficient agreement, what the canon of
scripture is. The principle is correct, and therefore all honest minds
rest satisfied, in the same results. Abandon the question of the one-
ness of the bible, to be agitated and kept afloat on the perturbed
ocean of expedience, as the ([uestion is, respecting the oneness of tho
church, and very soon we should have amongst us almost as many
books claiming to be bibles, as we have sects claiming to be churches.
And what are the laws of evidence, guided by which, all christians
come to such a desirable agreement as to the canon of the scripture 1
Do we settle that grave point by apjieals to \\u- scriplure alone 1 Do
we require a " thus saith the Lord," for tb<- admission of any book
within the compass of the bible 1" Ay, this is the (|uestion, do wo
lake up the bibh; from the shelf, and putting it to our car, ask it what
it has to say for itself? If W( do, we shall lay it aside without re-
ceiving the desired answer, pretty miirh as ihr Indian rbief did, when
the Spanish missionary liamh d him the good book. — " ll says noth-
ing," said the Indian. How then shall we |)roeeed in this investiga-
tion? " We select," says bishop Smith, " some perio<i of christian
anti(|uity by universal consent anterior to great corruptions, and that
wc may be safe, anterior to great causes tending to eorrnjition ; the
year 3llO for exaniph-, prior to the conversion of < 'onstanlinr- ; or th«i
year 250, when the documenlft of the then existing Christianity wrro
abundant; or the year '200, when men were living who had ronvrr»n'd
with the disciphs of John, and we ask, what hooks were renivrd by
christians, every where, an<l with one consent, as sacred bookK; and
these, and no others, we admit into our ranon. Then with the ut-
most care we look into every jirevions writer, for concurring or tor op-
posing evidence. Finding every thing nearly elear and HaliHfaclory,
we repair to the books of the .Now Testament themselves for acci-

288 DEBATE ON TUF,

dental and internal evidence, to endorse for and confirm the whole.
And here we rest satislied that we have grasped the thuth."

How will the champion of Protestantism extricate himself from
this dilemma 1 Does he confess his ignorance of the leading doctrines
of eminent Protestant divines'? They find a unanimous consent.

He talks of two great lies ! I like strong language, but this is such
as Milton's Satan would have better used, than a professing christian.
How Jews and Infidels will triumph, when assured by my opponent
that Christ's preaching and miracles, so signally failed, that the largest
body of christians in the entire world, have been based upon two great
lies, since the year 250, or about that period ! Take away the
2,000,000 Catholic and Greek christians that believe in these two
great truths, and think it blasphemy to call them lies, and what be-
comes of the few stragglers that remain in the valleys of the Alps,
or where you please — the " rari. nantes in gurgtte vastu?" Did Christ
expend all his labor, all his blood, to give mankind, one kind of
idolatry for another 1 Credat Judxus.

Now, my friends, dispossess your minds of prejudice ; forget your
religious education, if possible; take up the 13ible, and see if it be
wholly silent upon these two great truths, not lies. For 2, or 3,000,000
who have not ail lost their reason, adhere to these divine doctrines,
which they find in this blessed volume. I speak unto you as wise
and pious men. Judge you, yourselves, and do not let others judge for
you, what I say. I quote the Bible which you all admit, as I have
hitherto quoted Protestant authority, which you admit on all cases, to
be not over friendly to Roman Catholic doctrines. I disdained to avail
myself of the weeds which you threw over your garden lualls, I mean im-
moral and degraded ministers, as my opponent has done with discarded
firiests, to cast your doctrine with them. With such, we hold no fel-
owship. The pure of life, the men of honor and of learning, whom
we receive from your ranks, we cherish. From the Bible, then, the
fathers, the most eminent Protestants, I shall select my proofs, that,
on these two imputed lies, the Catholic church, like St. Paul, so Christ
is her witness, speaks the truth in righteousness.

To begin from the Fible. If there is a single tenet of christian
faith, clearly established in the Bible, I contend that it is the real
presence of Jesus Christ, in the adorable sacrament of the Eucharist.
And if we cannot take in the literal sense, the words of Christ,
" This is my body ; This is my blood," the plainest that God or man
could utter, but iimst adopt, instead of this, some one of the two
thousand meanings, invented by the sacramentarians, and the anti-
sacramentarians, for this text, we may bid adieu to the doctrine of the
intelligibility of scripture. I distinguish two principal epochs in the
Gospel narrative; the first, when Jesus Christ promises to give us his
body and blood in the Eucharist; the second, when \\e gives them to
us. Before announcing his desire of bequeathing to the world this
divine legacy, as we read in the 6th chapter of the (iospel of St. John,
he wrought a splendid miracle, even the feeding of 5000, with a few
loaves, in the wilderness, to prove himself the God whom the heavens
and the earth obey, and thus conciliate the faith of the multitude in
the divinity of his mission, and the truth of his doctrines. He speaks
of the absolute necessity of this faith — of its scarcity, and expressly
declares that the sight of his miracles, or the testimony of the sense,
cannot beget faith. In a word, that no man can come to him, unless

ROJIAX CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 289

his father Jraiv him. He then continues his divine instructions, by
alluding to the miracle which he had wrought, in which was a most
striking resemblance to the greater miracle which he designed to
work, viz. the multiplication of his own body and blood, for the daily,
the super-substantial bread, or food, of men, with whom, as he else-
where assures us, in scripture, il is his delight to dwell. He reminds
his hearers of all the wonders wrought in their favor, in the old Law,
shews them all the wisdom, the power, the love of Heaven, displayed
in their behoof, from the commencement of their history ; how dear
Ihey were to God, and further and better gifts, which, if want of faith op-
posed no obstacle, so many divine pledges gave them a right to antici-
pate. The greatest of Kings, even Solomon, in all his glory, had
nothing better to give them than gold and silver, a city, a tract of land.
No earthly king can compote with God, in conferring benefits. This
the history of the Jews sufliciently attested ; and the miracle of the
loaves brought affeclingly to their minds, what their fathers had told
them, what they, themselves, had read in the testimony, of the manna
or miraculous bread, which, for so many years had been showered
down from heaven, to feed their ancestors in the desert. They were
thus prepared for all that God could accoinplish to show his excess or
LOVE. They whom his father called, who are taught of God, hear with
faith; they whom his father called jw/, hear with incredulousness,
while he thus announces his mvri intended benefactions.

" This is the bread which came down from heaven. If any eat of
this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give is my
^esh for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among
themselves, saying, " how can this man give us his flesh to eat 1
Then Jesus said to them, ' Amen, amen, I say to you, except you eat
th<; flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have
life in you. He that eatelh my fl<^sh, and drinketh my blood, hath
everlasting life ; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh
is meat indeed ; and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my
flesh, and drinketh tny blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the
living Father sent me, and I live by the F'ather, so he that eatelh me,
the same also shall live by me. This is the bread lliat came down
from Heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and aro dead ; he
that eatelh this bread shall live forever.' These things he said, leach-
ing in the synagogue at Capernaum. Many, therefore, of his disci-
ples, hearing it, said, this is a hard saying, and who can hear it?
But Jesus kiTowing, in himself, thai his discinlcs nmrniured at this,
said to them, ' dolh this acanclalixe yoii ? If tli<n, you shall see iho
Son of man ascend up when- he was before ] It is the spirit that
quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing. Hut there are some of you
that belifve not.' F'or Jesus kni'W from tlie beginning, who ibey were
that iliii not believe, and wlio he was that would betray liini. And ho
said, ' therefore no man ran eome to me unless it i)e given liini by my
Father.' After this many of his disciples went baek, and walked no
more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve, will yon, al»o go
away? And Simon Peter answered him, F.ord, to whom shall we gol
thou hast the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and know
that thou art the Christ, the Son f)f (Jod. Jesus answered them,
' have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you io a devil.' Now he
meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for this same wan nbout to
betray him, whereas he wa» one of the twelve."
Z J7

290 DEBATE 0.\ THE

We have here a continuous argument, and faith and infidelity, pic-
tured to the life; murmuring at impossibilities then, as well as now,
rebuked by the Savior, and acquiescence in his word and his love, by
Peter, as the first believer of the divinity of the Soit ok God — of his
REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist. If he spoke figuratively, would he
have suffered his disciples, who understood the reality, to leave him ;
he who came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel 1 Would
he have suffered all his disciples to perish, rather than tell them this
single fact, that they misunderstood him ? If he spoke of a figurative
presence, the words, " hoiv can ynu believe when yon see the Son cf
man, ascending up to Heaven, where he was before," would have had no
sense. In the Catholic view of the Eucharist, it is divinely strong.
If you cannot believe, now, that my flesh and blood are visible, pal-
pable objects of every sense, that I can give them to you for food,
how much less can you believe it, when you see the Son of Man as-
cending up to Heaven, &c. The flesh surely profiteth nothing to un-
derstand this mystery — it requires the faith and the spirit of faith, to
impose silence on the senses, and say, with St. Peter, " Lord, to whom
should we go— Thou hast the words of eternal life." This is the
bread which strengthens us to live out successive ages. This is not
an immoral doctrine. It elevates man to know that he is thus loved.
That he is of a holy race, a purchased people, a royal priesthood,
the especial object of incessant wonders. That he beholds God with
him, Immanuel, in Bethlehem, house of bread, hid beneath the sacra-'
mental veil, but destined, and prepared by this nourishment, to enjoy
him hereafter, without a veil, in the rich eflTulgence of the beatific
vision. [Time expired.]

Half past 1 1 o\lock, A. M.
Ala. Campbell rises —

My opponent in commencing observed, that almost the whole circle
of Catholic tenets came in review in my last speech. If such be an
error, whose fault is it "? I have no respondent. How many hours has
the gentleman spent in reading against time, without any relevancy
to the questions at issue, or to the proposition before us. And
when he does reply, it is frequently to somethmg said a day or two
ago.

I selected two points yesterday afternoon as comprehending the
substance of the error opposed in my fifth proposition, and even to the
present moment he has not presumed to meet me on these vital mat-
ters to discuss them. In my last speech, I therefore not only recapitu-
lated some important items ; but argued one or two specifications, in
proof of the proposition legally before us. I also introduced in part my
seventh proposition, and so far discussed its bearings as to show the
anti-American, and anti-Republican theories of the Latin church.

The bishop has, indeed, this time, selected the doctrine of transub-
stantiation : but has he adverted to the various points of argument I
have made \ Ought he not, at least, to have glanced at these points,
in order 1

1. The incongruity of the idea of a sacrament with that of transub-
stantiation.

•2. The unreasonableness of preferring the literal to the figurative, in
the interpretation of a phrase common in scripture, which m no other
case is so interpreted by the party themselves.

BOMAIf CATHOLIC BEXIOIOX. 291

3. The arrogance of the priests in assuming the power of working
miracles, for the salce of a forced interpretation of a phrase without
precedent or analogy.

4. The belief of such a transubstantiation destroys the credibility of
all testimony, human and divine, and necessarily tends to atheism.

5. That the institution of the supper is commemorative and not ex-
piatory, havintr nothing of the nature of a sacrifice for sin.

To which of these important considerations has the gentleman re-
plied in his last speech ? Has he formally and specifically met any
one of them 1

It was also alleged, that the admission of such a pretension, on the
part of any priest, was debasing and paralizing to the human under-
standing, and subjected to imposture and fraud those who implicitly
acquiesced in it There are few persons, who so observantly trace
moral effects to their causes, as to be able duly to apprrciate how
much influence in the formation of human character may plulosophi-
cally be ascribed to sucii idle, absurd, and irrational pretensions.
We sometimes see with what little power, reason, philosophy, and
experience combat the belief in witches, ghosts, apparitions, and
other legendary tales, the effect of the nursery and early impressions.
When the imagination is once filled with such tales and delusions, it
requires a power equal to the dispossession of demons to rectify it, and
elevate it above such a tormenting infatuation.

The gentleman, indeed, with a show of respect for scripture, seem-
ed to appeal to the 6th chapter of John, as though it spoke of the
same thmg. Now, unless this discourse relates to the last supper,
and was delivered with respect to it, linw idle to seek to prove from
it what was never said in it! It was a discourse upon loaves and
manna, delivered to the people of Cai>ernaum in their synagogue, on
the occasion of our Lord having fed five thousand men in the desert,
upon a few loaves and fishes. And as at the well f)f Jac'li ho spoke
of the loater nf life ; sy hero, when the mirarle of loaves is the topic,
he speaks of the hread if lift- .■ and of ealin'j; th.it bread, as to tlu; wo-
man of Samaria, he spoke of drinhlnp; that water. Mc goes on to
apeak fig\iratively oi cominiiio him, enlint^Wnw, niwrhuni^rn'm^, never
thirsting again, fee., and in tlie most figurative style, continues his
discourse, till at l;ist, after he had s|)okeii of tlnir eating )ii.-< flesii and
drinking his blood, he told them that the words he spoke " were snirit
and ///■'•"" not literal fle/Jt and hlond — that flesh and blood could not
profit the soul. An(l so the apontle I'eter nnderstood him when ho
said, " Lord thou hast the words of eternal life." In metaphori-
cal language, it is usual t(j say ' one /itinf^rm and l/tirxln afl(.'r knowl-
edge, righteousness,' &c. ; and to say that one cats what he hi-lieves
and receives into his mind. Thus says David : "I found thy woj-d,
and I ^id eal it." The transubstantiation of John vi. is the very op-
posite of the transubstantiation btfore uh. It was flish into bread, M
the figure given in John; and bread into flesli, as the figure fiven in
the Eiichai-iKt. "I am the living bread." " My fl'sb is meal, in<leo<l,"
«» My blood is drink, indeed." " The bread whieb I give is my Ursh."

But the gentleman relies upon Uie Siivior's leaving tluin in error,
euffering them to go away in a mistake. If ibis were true; I can find
a similar ease. To the proud and captious, bo often deiijncd no reply.
Hence, when somn wont away froui his discourae, allegin^r that bti

292 PSBATE ON THE

was born in Nazareth, he took no pains to correct the error, thongh
it would seem that a sinorlo word would have decided the case. He
knew what manner of S|)irit they were of, and never said once; I was
not born in Nazareth; but in Bethlehem. But to conclude, the sub-
ject of discussion in John vi. is about receiving him — coming to him,
believing him to bo the Messiah, &c., and was addressed to ambitious
obstinate Jews. The subject in Mattli. xxvi. and 1 Cor. xi. is his
Savior's death, sacrifice and the commemoration of it, addressed to his
disciples. It is, then, every way illogical to reason from the one to
the other, as parallel cases.

But I would ask, how is a man to believe the same sense at one
time, and disbelieve it at another, when in reading Paul or Matthew
he sees the words, " this is wy body,'''' and when looking on the table,
he sees not tiesh but bread, why should he believe what he sees in
the former case, and disbelieve what he sees in the latter case. That
he sees bread is certain ; why not then believe his eyesi Or, if he
rejects them here, why not reject them there, on the words, " This is
my body 1" and believe that it reads, " this represents my body '."
But even after the consecration, and after Jesus had said, "This is
my blood," he clearly teaches, that he spoke in a figure : for, adds
he, " I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine with you," &c.
And Paul, after consecration says, " He that eateth this bread, and
drinketh this cup unworthily" — &c.

Were it, however, converted into flesh, we would have to ask,
vhat sanctifying power 'm flesh?, or, what spiritual food would there
be in the human flesh of the Son of God 1 And were it omnipresent,
how would the eating of it as a sin offering, take away sin from the
conscience 1 ! The virtue was in the altar, on which the sacrifice
was offered : for " it is the altar that sanctifies the gift." And had
it not been for the true and proper divinity of the Son of God, his
flesh as a sin oflfering, could in no sense profit any person. But the

Eriest can bring down the divine Savior from heaven, and oflfer him,
ody, soul, and divinity, as often as he pleases; and have the people
adore both him and the miracle in his hand ! ! He that can believe
all this, is not to be reasoned with.

The gentleman's remarks on, " lam with you,''^ even after so many
hours' reflection since 1 expounded them, have not the slightest refer-
ence to any thing I have said. I could not have thought it possible
for a child to have so misunderstood and misapplied them. I need
not again repeat them. They are wholly misrepresented. He has
"defied heaven and earth." What a daring logician I Yes; he
"defied heaven and earth," on what ? To weaken his argument on
infallibility ! It would be hard indeed, lo weaken that, which has no
strength. Perliaps he might defy Omnipotence to weaken what does
not exist. But the bishop is just as fallible as your humble servant;
and his church (I may with confidence say) is even more fallible
than the Protestant church : for, our rule of faith is perfect and com-
plete : his rule, as I have shown, is imperfect and immoral.

" But Protestants are better than their principles !" Indeed ! Their
principles are the bible alone. Their acknowledged principles, cer-
tainly, are those to which my friend refers! A good argument ! I
read the other day something like this— r" Bad as human nature is,
there is no man on earth bad enough to make a goo^l papist.'-' " The
system cannot be carried out fully by any person." Would my learn-

HOMAN CATUOLIC HELIGION. 293

ed antagonist call this a good argument against his system? And is
it not as logical as that which he has just alleged ?

The bishop accuses Mr. Smith of ingratitude. I have something
more to do than to defend Mr. Smith from such groundless imputa-
tions. Everyone who abjures Catholicism, is a wretch : for Protest-
ants are all heretics ! The best return Mr. Smith or any person can
make for favors received, is to disabuse the minds of his benefactors
from error, if they happen to entertain it. The best and most grate-
ful return that I could make to a Roman Catholic benefactor, for any
benefit conferred, would be, if possible, to convince and save him from
the most ruinous and destructive heresy that time records, or ever
will record.

Next comes the Secrela Mimita ,- for we must circumnavigate another
circle in this speech also. The Secrela Manila, then, is just as accu-
rate and fair a view of the spirit, design, and policies, of that ordey, as
can be given. Such is our faith : and that on no mean testilnony
either.

We shall give some account of the discovery of this said book :

'■ " We are indebted for this •' terrible book" of Jesuits'

«ecret«, to the parliament of Paris. They passed the act to abolish the Jesuits
lociety : and the execution came on the Jesuit college like a thunder stroke.
Their palace was surrounded by troojis, and their papers and books, and these
" Secret Instructions ' were seized before they hacf heard that the parliament
had tiiken up their c.tjsc!"

The reasons which the parliament of France, in 17C2, gave for ex-
tirpating this order, which has thirty-nine times been proscribed, speak
volumes :

"The consequences of their doctrines destroy the law of nature: break all the
bonds of civil Society: authorizing l> ing, theft, perjury, the utmost umlcuiiness,
murder, and all sinsl Their doctrines root nut all sentiments of huiuunity: excite
rebellion: root out all religion: and mbstilule all sorts of superstition, blasphe-
my, irreligion, idolatry."

Other reasons for the suppression of this order, will be found in the
following extract from their oath :

'• In ihe presence of Almiglily (lod and of ul! the snint», to

you. n>y ghostly father, I do declare that his lioline»», pope , is Christ's

vicar-generni, and the only liead of the universal church throughout the curlh:
and that by virtue of the keys given him by my Savior, Jesus Clirisl, he hath
power to depose heretical king-., princes, states, conunonwealllii'. and govern-
ments: all being illegal, without his sacred ronfirmntioii; and that thry may
»afely be <lcstroved. Therefore I, to the utmost of nly power, "hall and will de-
fend his doctrine, and his holiness' rights and customs agninst all usurper*." Ac.

" I do renounce and dig own any allegiance ti» due to niiy hrrcticnl kin(f,
prince, state, named I'rottstants, or obedience to an) of their inferior niogislratcs,
or officers." 1 • I

"I do further promise and declare that notwithstanding I nm ilisprnsrd with,
to assume any religion heretical for the projMigHtion of tin: mother church's in-
terest, — to keep secret and private, all her agent's counsels," Kc.

" All which I, A. |{. do swear by ihe bUsse.l Trinity, and the blessed siicrm-
mcnt, which I am now to receive. And I call all the heavenly nnd glorioui
hosts above, to witnris these my real intentions, to kiep this my oath. In tei-
timony hereof, 1 take this most blessed sacrament of the cucharist, and set my
han-l and seal."

Such is the order of men tPBiored by Saint I'ius VII., who, for re-
storing thorn and tin- inqiiiHition, ("the vici! of ibo dark a(fCB ! !") ha*
been beatified, and cnrullod in the Koniaii he;iviiiH, a» a Hairit of the
first order! Is it not in sinking and tlirillmtr luirmony with tlio ge-
nius of our iDSlilulioiis, to have priests of this order, all over iho land
z2

294 DEHATE ON THE

in chare:e of the souls and consciences of American citizens 1 ! So
much for Jesuitism.

I ought not to have called errors " lies," as the apostle John, and
the other apostles, have done. Why ? All errors are lies ; and all
who propagate them are, hy the same apostle, John, called liars. "All
liars," says he, (teachers of error,) shall have their part in a certain
lake. Was it not impolite for the apostle, thus to use such a vulgar
style ■? I must, then, have fallen into bad company, when I said, the
man of sin stands upon two cardinal lies!

Next comes the doctrine of majorities ; and these are every thing
with a Romanist. They are the root, and reason, and illustration, and
proof of infallibility. The man who seeks the truth by the tests of
sincerity, majority, and antiquity, will never find it on earth. This is
amply true of the present and all past ages. There are sincere Turks,
Jews, pagans, infidels. There are very ancient errors, heresies, and
sects. And, as for majorities, from Enoch till now, they have gener-
ally, if not always, been wrong in religion. Where was the majority,
when Noah was building his ark 1 when Abraham forsook Urr of the
Chaldees? when Lot abandoned Sodom 1 when Moses forsook
Egypt 1 when Elijah witnessed against Ahab ? when Daniel and his
companions were captives in Babylon ? when Malachi wrote? when
the Baptist preached ] when Christ was crucified ? when the apostles,
and many of the first Christians, were persecuted ? !

And, compared with paganism, when had Roman Catholicism the
majority ■? Strange, indeed, that infallibility, after all this, should
come to be the attribute of majorities ! But the bishop, in his speech
against Luther, delivered here in October last, said there were one
hundred and fifty million Roman Catholics. I cannot find them on the
earth, unless I count many millions of atheists and pagans along with
them. But, after a more accurate search, I find there are in all, but
one hundred and ten millions of professed Roman Catholics, and
amongst these, millions of sceptics : of Protestants, there are seventy-
five millions; and of the Greek church, above forty millions; making
at least one hundred and fifteen millions of Protesters against the
man of sin. If, then, there be anything in majorities, the Romanists
have it not. InfiiUibility is somewhere else. The time comes, (and
may heaven speed its flight!) when the kingdom, and the greatness
of the kingdom, under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people
of the saints of the Most High, when all dominions shall serve and
obey him. But Babylon will never see that day ; for she will be
buried in her own ruins before it comes. And when the angel, with the
trumpet of everlasting good news, shall sound the hour of her judgment
as come, and announce the triumph of the gospel ; then, but not till then,
will the majority be on the side of God, and Christ, and heaven.

I am only now at the place where I left off in my former speech,
and my half hour is almost expired. I cannot again condescend to
such a sacrifice of time to so many points.

I was showing, when I sat down, that the theory of spiritual des-
potism always precedes the practical display of it ; and that the theory
of the terrific and appalling despotism of papal Rome, is to be found
in principles and theories promulged, and believed, and taught, before
the reign of darkness and terror began.

The fact of putting the bible under a bushel, of forbidding the read-

RO>IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 295

ing of it, of swearing for ever to interpret it as it has been interpreted,
of not permitting men to think or speak for themselves on religion, of
teaching them the power of the priests to work miracles, to create a
god out of bread, that the people might adore it and them, of making
a supreme judge of controversy out of one of the parties, or combining
the legislative, executive, and judicial powers in one person, (the
model of the most cruel despotism,) is the paragon of supreme tyranny,
never surpassed, never equaled on earth.

How any person can, from such a system, elaborate a single ele-
ment of free government, or of civil liberty, I cannot imagine. Indeed,
the radical ideas of papal supremacy, are as antipodal to republican
doctrine and American institutions, as are the zenith and the nadir!
But my time has fled.

TSvehe o'clock, M.
BfSHOP PURCEU, rises —

t have only to stand here for half a minute, and to open the bible, to
reduce to dust the arguments which it costs my opponent such a waste
of time and labor to construct. Was not Civil and Ecclesiastical power
united in the high priest, by the Almighty God, himself 1 Is not this re-
corded in Deuteronomy, and admitted by my worthy antagonist 1 What

says the scripture.

" If you perceive, that there be among you, a hani and ilouhtl'ul ninltfr in
judgment, between blood ami blood, cause and cause, leprosy and leprosy; and
thou sec that the words of judgment within the gates, do vary ; arise and go up
to the place which the Lonithy God shall choose. And tliou thaltcoiue to the
priests of ihe Levilical race, and to the judge that sliull be at thai time; and

thou shall ask of them, and they chall shew thee the truth of the judgment. And
thou shall do whatsoever they shall say, that preside in the place, which th«
Lord shall choose, and what they shall teach thee accordms to this law: and

thou shalt follow their sentence, neither shall thou dechne to the right hand nor
to the left hand. Bui he that will be proud, and refuse to obey the conmiand-
nient of the priest, who ministereth at that time to the Lord f Jod, ami the decree
of the judge, that man shall die, ami thou shalt take away the evil from I^rnrl."
— Deut. xvii. 8, et seq.

Here is civil power, and ecclesiastical authority blended m one
tribunal, of the presiding priest and of the I.evilical ministry, and the
penalty of death ordained by (Jod, against him who contends for private
judfriient and refuses to obey.

Now, my friends, if Mr. ('. seriously intends ti employ reason and
argument, instead of the calumny and abuse too often employed in re-
ligious discussions heretofore, why does he rake up from a pile of
rubbish, sad memorial of the havoc made by llie enemies of the Je-
suits, and exhibit the tattered, and sordid, iloniments found there, lor
proof? I expected "■ honor hrt^/it" from my friend, when we beg;in
this debate, and I still expect it. Have I not dealt fairly myselH
Have I gone to the sewers and streets, as he has done to lho«eof(*rncow
and Paris for the Simlo .Voni7«, for evidence a[r,iinst the ProteRtantN t
No! I have (|uoted their most respectable iiiitlifiritieK— I have taken up
iSouthey, and Waddingion, and such writers. I do not think it honor-
able to stoop down, and pick up from the gutter, all the vile trash, that
Protestant.H have written against one another ; much less that, which
the enemies of Protestants may have invented; and I do not expect
this course frr-in my frieml. in his attempt to f;isten upon Catholics, the
sins which they abhor. " Why did the p:.rlianient of Paris destroy tho
society of the Jesuits V I will tell the gentleman. Because ihejr

296 DEBATE ON THE

had become the disciples of the man, who boasted that " he was tired of
hearing it said, that twehc men had been able to convert the world from
paganism to Christianity, for that he would let it be seen that one man
was able to unchristianize it." This was the boast of Voltaire, who,
at the head of his letters to the infidel conspirators leagued with him
against revelation, was accustomed to write the words ; '■^ Ecrasons Fin-
fame,^^ Lei ns crush ike wreich, meaning Jesus Christ and his holy re-
ligion. These anti-christian machinations could never succeed, and
their authors were too wide awake in their hostility to the christian
faith, not to be aware of the fact, as long as religion commanded the
services of so learned and exemplary a body of men as the Jesuits.
In all the entire world, in China and in France, in America and in
Europe, society, as well as pure religion was their debtor. In every
language they wrote the most admirable treatises on the mathematics,
on medicine, on geography. Their historians, orators, poets, mission-
aries, have never been surpassed. Mr. Secretary Cass and Richard
Peters of Philadelphia, recorder of the Supreme Court, will inform
you, for they have examined it, how perfectly accurate is their map of
Lake Superior with its 1500 miles of coast, which one or two of these
fathers, while seeking the red man, for Jesus Christ, in their frail
canoe, found time to survey. In a word the Jesuits were ornaments
to human nature, but they had, at the same time, the mi'aforiune to be
the ornaments and the pillars of Religion. This Voltaire knew. His
infidel colleagues knew it. And as they were conscious that the lives
of the Jesuits defied their malice, and the learning of the Jesuits would
continue to confound their sophistry, they had no resource but to op-
press them by calumny. Hence they spared no pains to render them ob-
noxious to the Parliament of Paris, and reproduced the Sccreia Moniia,
fabricated by some anonymous calumniator in 1G12. The sp.urionsness
of this paper has been every where admitted by the critics. Let not any
one who reads this controversy on the theatre of its exposure, learn
from it that erudition and honor are at so low an ebb in the United
States, as to admit as argument, an appeal to so contemptible a slander.
As to the oath of the Jesuits, it is taken from the same book ! There
is no Jesuit that ever takes such an oath. Every Jesuit in the United
States, who is not a native of the country, and intends to reside in
it, has taken the oath of allegiance to our government. And in George-
town, in the District of Columbia, in Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky,
are native American Jesuits, some of the most whole-souled and tho-
rough-going republicans in the world, prepared, at any moment, to imi
tate the patriotic example of the first of their order in the United States,
Arch-bishop Carroll, the friend and associate of Washington. In this
spirit they are rivaled by the rest of our clergy. That venerable
old priest, now before you, has done for half a century, and specially
in those perilous times that tried men's souls, when a formidable ene-
my was on our frontier, within our borders — nay in our very capital^
and committing our nob. est monuments to the flames, more for freedom,
happiness and the union, than any other living man, perhaps, of ihe
clerical profession. The Latin poems, which he published during the
war, breathing the energy and spirit of the songs of the Greeks, when
they struck down the tyrants, were translated into English, and
widely circulated. General Harrison, if he were here to-day, would
inform you, as he has informed me, by my fire-side, what loyal men

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 297

and true were the Catholic missionaries of Indiana and Missouri, in
auld long syne. How they exerted all their influence, and it was not
inconsiderable, to keep the Indians faithful to the cause of free govern-
ment. My friends, if 1 must have an opponent, let me have an honorable
one: let me have facts and proofs, instead of slanders and insinuations. '
And, to say all in one word, in answer to the charges against the
Jesuits, Why did the parliament of Paris restore the order in Francel
Ay, that is the question. 1 will tell the gentleman. Because they
discovered their blunder, and the injustice they had committed in sup-
pressing them, and the prostrate state of education, after the .Tesuits
had been expelled the colleges. Then, with the magnanimity of the
corporation of London, a few years ago, who honorably chipped oflF
the inscription from the pillar, which, like a tall bully, raised its head
and lied, by attributing tlie conflagration of 16Gt> to the Roman Catho-
lics, did the parliament of Paris make partial atonement for the wrong
done to the Jesuits. These are examples worthy of our imitation in a
free and happy republic, where the iron heel of religious bigots should
not be allowed to bend so much as a blade of grass !

I continue my argument for the real presence. I shall first produce
the sequel of the scripture evidence, and then reply to the objections
of my friend. The institution of the eucliarist is related by three
evangelists, and by St. Paul ; by St. Matthew, who wrote his gospel,
in India, seven years after the death of Christ; by St. Mark, who
wrote his gospel in Rome, two years later, under the direction of St.
Peter; by St. Luke, whose gospel was written in the nineteenth year
of the Christian era, in Asia; and by St, Paul, from Macedonia, in
Greece, fifty years later than St. Matthew, and who had learned what
he teaches, not from the other evangelists, but from the revelations
made to himself by Jesus Christ in person ; all writing at diff'erent
times, and in difl^erent places, and yet all using the self-same words,
the plainest in the languages in which they wrote, or in any other,
and the best adapted to the poor and illiterate, who had the gospel
preached to them. All tlicso tell us, with one accord, in the Holy
Ghost, tiiat the Lord, the night before he suffered, took bread into his
venerable and creating hands ; at)d lifting up his eyes to heaven, (to
heaven, to show us whence that power was derived, that goodness
emanated,) he blessed and brake, and gave it to his disciples, tn whom
he had made the prfiinise of his body, saying: "Take, and eat. This
t« my body." In like; manner, the chalice, saying: "Drink you all
of this. This is my blood of the New Testament." Now, these
words are so intelligible, and so clear, that if ever the prinriple,
that every one can interpret the bible for himsi-lf, Khould be admitted,
and enforfed, anri insisted on. it is surely hf-re ; for there is Hrarcly
a possibility thai words so plain, and so frequently repealed in their
plainness, should lead us into er:v)r. We may even safely ask, in tho
nypothesis that Jesus ('brist bad really wished tr) leave iis his body
and blood in ihf eufharist, what other words he could have unit], to
signify more rlearly tlw r'al prcsincf in the sacranu-nl ? Ilr has,
however, in his incdtnprebmHiblo wisdom and love, found HoMielhiiig
plainer still; for he not only said, "This is my body," but, a<i he
was then making a law, a will, where nothing should be left, in the
slightest manner, ambiguous, he added, "'I'IiIm \t* my body, which is
GIVEN FOR vou, this ifl my blood, which sham, hk smto roR vot>."

.18

298 DEBATK 0\ THE

Was it a figurative body, that was deliverod for us 1 Was it by figtl-»

rativr blood, that wo wore rcdeemod 1 Then are we yet in our sins,
and Jpsus Christ has deceived ns. Tliis it were, in tlie last defrree,
impious to suppose; and, therefore, steadfast in the truth of what the
Son of God has done lor us, we may say, as Tertullian said, on a
different occasion, to the innovators of his time : Under what pretence
do you come'? and why do you remove the landmarks. The estate is
ours: we have tlie ancient, tlie prior possession of it: we are the
heirs of .lesus Christ : he made his will in our favor; and, eternal
praise be fjiven to him, he himself, the oritrinal proprietor, has deliv-
ered to ns the title deeds (layiiig our hands on the bible.) Here ia
the pillar, the fast anchor of our faith in the eucharist. But it is not
yet expedient to lay aside these texts, without conferring on them one
mark of attention more. In the twenty-second chapter of St. Luke,
. 18th, 19th, and 20th verses, we read of the institution of the eucharist,
as a sacrament, and as a sacrifice, in a manner more and more expli-
cit. "This," says the benefactor of the world, takintr leave of it,
" this is my body, which is given for you ;" and in the Greek text of
the Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, " which is broken for you:"
" this is the chalice, the New Testament in my blood, which shall ba
shed for you ;" and in the Greek text, " which is shed for you, for
the remission of sins : do this in commemoration of me." Here, then,
is every thing essential to a true sacrifice, clearly prescribed. The
bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ,
and offered, and ordered to be offered to his heavenly Father, for the
remission of sins. Now, hear how St. Paul, whose authority, upon
what I have already remarked of the circumstances in which he was
called to the apostleship, is entitled to special respect, speaks on this
subject, in liis Epistle to the Corinthians: " Wherefore," says he,
" my dearly beloved, I speak to you as to wise men ; judge ye your-
selves what I say. The chalice of benediction which we bless,
is it not the communion of the blood of Christ ! And the bread which
we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? Behold
Israel according to the flesh: are not they who eat of the (Pagan)
sacrifices, partakers of the altar? But the things which the heathens
sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not
that you should be made partakers with devils. You cannot drink of
the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils : you cannot be par-
lakers of the table of the Lord, and the table of devils." Who doea
not see, in a text so plain, that St. Paul contrasts the table of Christ
with the altar of the Jews, and the table of devils, which the Gentiles
frequented. So that, in the same manner as the Jews partook of what was
offered on the altar, and the Gentiles of what was placed on the table af-
ter having been first sacrificed to the idols, so do the Christians par-
take of the table of the Lord, eating of that flesh which had been offered
for them, and with whose blood they had been sprinkled and purified.
But this argument would be weak and utterly inconclusive, if the
faithful, like the Jews and the Heathens, were not partakers of some-
thing really offered by them in sacrifice. Again, St. Paul, not only
here, but also in the Ep. to the Hebrews, speaks of an altar, " of an
altar, whereof they have no power to eat who serve the Tabernacle."
Now it is altogether an abuse of terms, a wilful leading of others
into error, to call that an altar on which sacrifice is never offered; and
when St. Paul said we have an altar, whereof they cannot eat, who

E05r.VN CATHOLIC HELIGION. 299

remain attached to the Jewish relijrion, he meant, no doubt what was
then understood by every one, that there was a victim offered by
christians at that day, 36 years after Christ, and eaten by priest and
people. This is the victim of the eucharist, of which Matthew,
Mark, Luke and Paul speak so clearly, and so forcibly, and which
we must either now admit on the evidence of scripture, or Hing the
Bacred volume into the flames. My opponent may talk of (^hrist's
saying ; " I am the vine ;" " 1 am the door ;" " destroy the temple ;"
the ten lean kine, and the ten years of famine ; but, my friends, does
not the scripture explain its mt^aning, so as to leave no doubt as to the
sense of these, and twenty such texts besides. The dream of Pharaoh,
and his butler's were most minutely interpreted and perfectly ex-
plained. The evangelist expressly informs us, Christ spoke of the
temple of his body ; lest this expression should leave any doubt on
the mind of the reader as to the Savior's meaning. But where is the
parity between these passages and the words of Christ : "this is my
body — this is my blood." " My flesh is meat indeed — my blood is
drink indeed." Our Lord does not say of the vine, " tliis vine shall
be hung up for you," he does not say of the door, this door shall be
hung up for you, he does not say of the temple, or of the vine, " they
shall be offered for you ;" but he says all this as I shall shew, when
I come to speak of the institution when speaking of the divine
food which he gives us in the Eucharist. "This is my body nhich
is offered for you, this is my blood, which is shed for you" — and as
he was then at the last hour of his life, and speaking heart to heart
to his friends, it was no time for parables and figures. The traitor
was nigh ; the hour was at Irand, wlun Iw was to ])ass out of this
world to the Father. He knew how this doctrine would be contested,
that the vast majoritv of christians would believe in it, as tiioy do at
this day, according to the obvious and literal meaning of the text, and
yet bespeaks not one word to induce us to believf in a figurative pre-
sence. Why 1 Because he meant it to be understood liicr:iliy, with
faitli in his almighty power and his infinite love. Hccausc as (Jod,
he operates his greatest wonders, by the simi)lest words. " 1^1 there
be lif^hl ;" " Thy son liveth ," " jMztirit.i, come forth ," " / i/'i7/, be
thou cleansed.''' " 'J'ide up thy bed and wnl/c,'' •■' /'face .' Be still t"
" 7Vj/« day shalt thou be with me in Paradise ," " 7'//;.i is my body,
this is my blood/'' This I.utiier himself was forced to admit, lie
tells ns how very desirous he was, and how much he laliored to over-
throw this doctrine, knowiiig how miieh he could, thereliy, annoy ilus
pope: 'but,' nays he, ' I found myself caught, without any way of
escaping; for the text of the gos|)el, was too plain for me." Kpist.
ad Argintenses, t. 4. fol. fidii. Kd. Wiltemherg. In another place, he
says, condemning those who denied the corporal presence; "The
devil seems to hav<! nifjcked tliosi; trj whom he has Huggesled a hcrcRy
80 ridiculous, and contrary to scripture, as that of the Zuinglianit who
explained away the words of the institution in a figurative way."
He elsewhere coinpares these gloHses with the following (ranslation
of the first words of the scripture : /» fjrinrijiio Dnii rrraril arlum
el terram. — In the liegiiuiing the Cuckoo ate the sjirurow and his fea-
thers. Def. verb. I)om. ()n one occasion he calls thone who deny
the real and corporal presence; "a damned sect, lying liereiirs, lirrad-
breakers, wine-drinker4, and sonl-deslroyers." In parv. calech.
On other occaaiona he says, " They are endevilized, and superdevi-

300 DEBATK OX THE

lized." Finally he devotes them to everlasting flames, "and builds
his own hopes of mercy at the tribunal of Christ, on his having with
all his soul condemned Carlostad, Zuinglius, and other believers in
the symbolical presence. Bishop Bramhall thus writes : " No genuine
son of the church (of England) did over deny a true, real presence.
Christ said — This is luy budy, — and what he said we steadfastly be-
lieve. He said neither Con, nor !Sub, nor Trans: therefore we place
those among the opinions of schools, not among articles of faith."
Ans. to Militiare, p. 74. Bishop Cosin is not less explicit, in favor
of the Catiiolic doctrine. He says, " It is a monstrous error to deny
that Christ is to be adored in the Eucharist. We confess the neces-
sity of a supernatural and heavenly change ; and that the signs can-
not become sacraments, but by the infinite power of (iod. If any one
make a bare figure of the sacrament, we ought not to suffer him in
our churches." Hist, de Transub. Lastly the profound Hooker ex-
presses himself thus ; I wisli men would give themselves more to me-
ditate in silence, on what we have in the sacrament, and less to dis-
pute of the manner how ; since we all agree that Christ, by the sacra-
ment, doth really and truly perform in us his promise, why do we
vainly trouble ourselves with so fierce contentions whether by con-
substantiation or else by transubstantiation V Eccles. Polit. B. v. 67.

My opponent says that when we meditate any doctrine, we eat it.
So, then, when we meditate on hell we eat it and all its contents ! He
says we eat it spiritually, but this is nonsense. I want not the sto-
mach or the mind, such orthodoxy requires.

My friend observes, that the doctrine of transubstantiation is con-
trary to the testimon}' of our senses. We have nothing but our sen-
ses to guide us. This is the scepticism of Thomas Tanew : " Unless
I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finders into
the place nf the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not oelieve."
The Savior condescended to give the requisite proof of the senses, to
the doubting apostle, but he replied to the confession "My Lord and
my God," " Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed.
Blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed." The
consequences of the doctrine of the real presence are not unworthy of
God. Every pretended absurdity is as justly chargeable on the In-
carnation as on the Eucharist. In Pope an(i McGuire's discussion,
one of these is to be found, where my friend got the foregoing. It is
that of a mouse, that is said to have once run away with the sacra-
ment, while the priest had his eyes shut saying his prayers. But is
this ridiculous story an argument? Then deny that sin could be com-
mitted, for sin is a greater insult than this, to Jesus Christ. Deny
that his sacred person was outraged with blows and spittle ; that he
was dragged through the streets of .Jerusalem, with the halter of ig-
nominy around his neck ; that he was scourged, crowned with thorns,
crucified ; that his blood trickled to the ground ; that his executioners
trampled upon it; that insects and quadrupeds partook of it! all these
adorable scandals are tlie consequences of the infinite love with which
Jesus Christ loved us. The more he is humbled for our sakes, the
dearer should he be to us. But if the scandal of his humiliations
shake our faith, let the wisdom and the power of the Godhead, dis-
played iu the midst of these humiliations, sustain and animate it.
Behold ! the earth that receives that falling blood, trembles to her
very centre ; the sun, unable to behold the bloody tragedy, withdraws

K05IAN CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 301

his light, and leaves the world in darkness and mourning and terror,
for its author's dissolution ; the rocks are rent asunder; the graves
give up their dead ; tlie pagan centurion strikes his breast and ex-
claims " Truly this man was the Son of God." Let us also believe
and adore ! — [Time expired.]

Three o'cUk, P. M.
Mr. CAJIPBELI, rises —

Knowing, my fellow-citizens, how much depends in such a discus-
sion, as tiiat now in progress, on liaving authentic documents, I deter-
mined from the beginning to rely on none wliich could, on proper evi-
dence, or with justice be repudiated. I knew that in all debates so far
back as the very era of tlie Reformation this party have been accus-
tomed to deny authorities, to dispute versions, transhitions, kc. even
of their own writers who were so candid as to give a tolerably fair re-
presentation of themselves. And as all their historians, good and bad,
frequently tell the truth, they are all occasionally to be censured, when
that truth is quoted by a Protestant and turned to its proper account.
I have not then, to my knowledge or belief, introduced ;in unworthy
author. And so long as my opponent can disprove nothin<r which I
have quoted, either from Du Pin, or Ligori, his frequent allusions to
them, with such unqualified censures, only shows how much be feels
the truth of their testimony.

The Jesuits, that standing army of the pope, are revived, and are
inundating our country. Other fraternities are but the militia: but
these are the trained band life-guards of the papacy. Their oath is full
proof of the spirit of the corps. My worthy opponent says, that they
are a very learned body of men, and that he is not imir a Jesuit. So
much the worse. How then can \w dclend the order froiu the doc-
trines of the Secreta Monila ; and afiirm that they do nc>t vnu; take the
oath which 1 read to you ? — He would represent me as jucking out of
the streets, or out of the ruins of some fallen edifice the oaths and
books of the Jesuits. If that were the fact, would it disprove the con-
tents of these documents? It would not. Truth is triilli, whercjver
found, in the street or in a temple — in a cellar, or in a mnunlain. Hut I
did not 80 seek or find them. They are public and authi'utic documents,
and my opponentran only deny or dispute, but he carmot disprove them.

Here is another document, not from the ashi'S of a monastery. I
do not know the writer of iliis arliile : but it is from an Kncycloptcdia.

BiHiioi' Pi KcKi.i,. Is it the book of Fessenden A:. Co. 1

Mr. C'ampbkli,. It is from their press.

Bishop Purcki.i.. Ah ! I know it!

Mr. Campbell reads:

" In 1801 llie »ocirty wan rfitortd in Itnnnin l>v thr niiiwror I'niil : nml in IflOl
by ItMiK I'lTtiiiiiind, in Surdiiiiii. In An^uit, JhM, ii hull w;!* i»«n<il 1)^ |H>|)r
Piui vll. futorin^ llic onlcr to all tlKir fornn r |irivilfjj< », iiml i iilliii(j n|ii>n nil
Catholics to nflToriltlirni prolrction nml ••iKciuriifjtnirnt. Tliii n( ( of ihrir rr-
vival ii Pipr«'*^r(l in nil the nolrninily of the pnpnl imllioiity; nnil rvi-n nffinnrd
to be nbnvi' thr ncnll or ri-vinion rifimy jntlnr. willi wIiiiIimt poMfT he niny \»'
clothed; but to «• very «'nliiclit<nrd nnn'f it cimnut fnd In npiwnr r«« n inrmurf hI-
together inrapalib' of ju^lifK iitjnn, from nny thin;; rillier ui the hutnry o( Jriuil-
i»m, or in the rhnmrti r of the prricnl limr«.

" The essential prinripjri of ihit inalilnlinn nnniely, that ihrir onlrr it to bo

mnintaincd nt Ihr expense of aoridv nt Inrifp, nnd ihni the end •nnrtifir* iho

mean", are utterly inrompntilije with the weltnre of nny ronimiinily of iiirn.

Their M'Btem of lax and pliant morality, justifying every vice, nod aulhoriting

2 A

302 DEBATE ON THE

every atrocity has left deep and lasting ravages on the face of the moral world.
Their zeal to extend the jurisdiction of the court of Rome over every civil
govcrmuent, gave currency to triiets respecting the dut}' of opposing princei
wiio were hostile to the Catholic faith, which shook the basis of all political al-
legiance, and loosened the obligations of every human law. Their iiidetatigable
industry, and countless artifices in resisting the progress of the reformed reli-
gion, perpetuated the most pernicious errors of popery, and postponed the tri-
umph of tolerant and christian principles. Whence, then, it may well be asked,
whence the recent restoration? What long-latent proof has been discovered of
the excellence, or even the expedience, of such an institution? The sentence of
their abolition was passed by the senates and monarchs, and statesmen, and di-
vines, of all religions, and of almost every civilized country in the world.

Almost every land has l)ecn stained and torn liy their crimes: and almost eve-
ry land bears on its public record the most solemn protests against their exis-
tence. The evils of Jesuitism arise not from the violation of the principles of
the order; on the contrary, they are the natural and necessary fruits of the sys-
tem; they are confiiud to no age, place, or person; they follow like the tail of
the comet, the same disastrous course with the luminary itself; and, in conse-
quence, not this or that nation, but humaiiitv, is startled at the re-appearance of
this common enemy of man." [KncyclopcCtlia of Religious Knowledge, p. 685.

Remember, my friends, that one of the carviinal principles of Jesuit-
ism is, that " the end juxlifics Ihe T)ieans." This maxim justifies every
crime in our criminal code ! if the cause of the Roman church can be
thereby promoted.

The gentleman asked " Why has this order been so often restored,
if it be not good 1" I answer, For the same reason that the Inquisi-
tion has been restored, and by the same persons too. Whenever the
power of the papacy and the state of the community would tolerate it,
it has been revived ; and I presume so long as the papacy lives, it
will, being infallible, pursue the same course. Does the restoration
of the Inquisition prove it to be good?

The gentleman would trace to the hatred of Christianity, the oppo-
sition of Voltaire and other sceptics in France, to the order of the Je-
suits. This is a non causa. The infidels hated the Jesuits, not for
Christ's sake, for no one could hate them on that account: but because
they supported the political despotism of this pretended vicar of Rome.
This was the true reason of that mortal hatred of the Jesuits by all
the republicanism of France, and throughout the world.

The bishop has confessed that he would have the legislative, judi-
cial, and executive powers in the same hands, and quotes Deuterono-
my xvii. to prove that it is right, even now. What an admirer of
American institutions ! Certainly, he has forgotten himself: and the
Jewish institution too! It was a theocracy. God himself was law-
giver — the priests kept and expounded the law — the judges and kings
executed it. Where, then, were all these powers accumulated in one
and the same dynasty ! It is a mistake of the case, as well as of the
nature of the government. The very elements of a just and pure gov-
ernment will be found in separating these powers; the very essence
of a despotism in tmiting them in one and the same person.

The gentleman, I am glad to observe, understands my discovery of
the elements of all tyranny in the supreme judge of controversy, or,
councils of the Roman church. But he fails in vindicating it. The
council is "the church representative ;^^ consequently, it is the church
judging for herself against the heretics or reformers. She is always
a party in the case of which she is judge. Most controversies are on
points affecting the priesthood. All disputes, more or less affect the
Standing or temporal interest of the clergy. Now the councils are

KOMAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 303

composed only of clergy. Is it not then the clergy judgrinj in their
own case ? And such is the model of a Roman CaiholiL- Republic !

A word or two more on transubslantiation. Will the bishop please
inform us whether the bread and wine are transubntatiliated into the
natural bodt/ of Christ, or into his glorified body? If into the natural
body, in which he said " thin is my body,'''' " this is my blood ,-^^ of what
profit to eat it? and how dare christians to eat it, according to the de-
crees of the apostles] and if it be his glorified body, how can there be
flesh and blood in it 1 for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
of heaven !

The allusions of my opponent to the Episcopalians and Unitarians,
in vindication of his gross interpretviiions of the eucharistal words, is
unworthy of a serious reply. Besiiles, their opinions are not the sub-
ject of controversy here. It is transubstantialion, and not consubstan-
tiation, or any other theory of the presence of the Lord in this ordi-
nance, which I assert, and which he is bound to defend, if he can.
The Episcopalians would abhor llip comments and interpretations
which the bishop dares append to their words. He treats them as he
treated Luther ! '

One of the most unfortunate references I recollect to have heard in
debate, was that of the bishop to the unbelief of Thomas. The Sa-
vior's answer to Thomas fully exprr'sscs his; sophistry on transubslan-
tiation : for Jesus said, " reach hither thy finger," — " handle me" —
" thrust thy hand into my side." So we reason : " Take this loaf into
your hands, feel it, taste it, smell it, — Is it flesh, or is it bread ? Test
it by your senses. Believe not, contrary to your senses. Jesus made
his appeal to the senses. So fin we. Why has my opponent quoted
this passage 1 Is he turning Protestant ?

I wish the Roman Catholics would hear Paul in this case. He has
positively said, that it is bread that is eaten in the act of celebrating
the supper. " Ah often," says he, " as you eat this firrnd, and drink
this CI/73, you do show forth the Lord's death till he come." 'Vo "drink
a cup" is certainly a figure as much as " ihis is my body;" and goes
to show that words are not to be taken literally in this passage. If
then, Jesus called it the fruit if the vine, after consecration, and Paul,
the bread and the cup, in the very act of conmiiinicating, I ask. What
foundation is there for the miracle of the mass] !

My learned opponent tells you a story about a mouse. It may, in-
deed, have a good argument in it; but I do not use such argunienls,
on so grave a subject. He did it, he said, to anticipate mi-. He did
not however anticipate me: for I had no intention of telling such a
story, or any other of the same lyp''. I think it would be more appo-
site for him to show how a person ran believe against his fivt! senses,
that a priest can, by a few words create the body, soul and divinity of
the Son of God out of a little "■ pastr ,^^ than to relate such iiiouho
stories, how true soever they may be. Surely, liefore thi-y kneel
down and adore a wafer, ihey ought to be fully assured that llio priest
has converted it into a divinity !

I must return to my last proposition. This eoncerns him and Win
party more, than any other one of the seven. We will so<in be able
to jndiie, whether he is determined to evade or canvass it. I would
emphatically tell him, the nommiinity expert him to disruMq ihiw unb-
ject above all others. They are much excited and inU-resUMl or this

304 DEBATE OS THE

point. Many who have no antipathy against Roman Catholics have
some fears of them. I belonir to that class. I have no antipathy : but
I have my fears. I do honestly think, (and I avow it here, that I may
give my ingenious opponent an opportunity to remove the impression
if he can.) I say, 1 do sincerely believe and think, that Roman Cath-
olicism, in any country is detrimental to its interests and prosperity:
and in a republic, directly and positively tending every moment to its
subversion. Such is my conviction. I avow it, that if possible, it
may be removed. I always distinguish between a system and those
who profess it, — between a creed, and the people. And therefore I
war against principles and not rtien. I am not singular in these senti-
ments. They are possessed by a largo portion of the most intelligent
of this community. I have, indeed, been asked, perhaps, a hundred
times, since October last, in different places, and by different persons,
of all religious parties and by persons of no sect: "Are you not afraid
to meet the Catholics in debate"?" — Afraid of what? — " Of your life
— of being killed," was the reply. " Are you not afraid that they will
lay violent hands on you ]" No ; was my answer. I met the infidel
Owen and feared nothing; and certainly I have no more to fear from
"the Mother and Mistress of all christians" than from infidels !

It gives me pleasure to say, that there are some Roman Catholics,
to whom I could trust my life and my all as confidently, as to any
Protestant. To such men, as Fenelon, as Paschal, as Rollin, as Du
Pin, as St. Pierre, as Thomas a Kempis, I could commit my life, as
freely and as cheerfully as to any Protestants. In such cases the man
rises above the system. I state this fact to interest my gpponent in
discussing my seventh proposition; and to assure him that it will give
me pleasure, and I have no doubt the whole community, to learn that
all such fears are perfectly groundless; and to see that he is able sa-
tisfactorily to remove them. Let the public mind be disabused: for
as present advised, Protestants generally think that civil liberty and
the papacy are wholly incompatible with each other: and that the in-
troduction of large numbers of Roman Catholics into this community,
would inevitably subvert this government ; and place us under a spi-
ritual and political despotism, intolerant and cruel as those, which the
see of Rome has established in every country on earth, where she has
obtained a majority.

Let the gentleman, then, turn his attention to this subject, and im-
prove the opportunity in wiping from his escutcheons those foul stains
that have associated with the name Roman Catholic every thing that
is intolerant, inhuman and tyrannical. Let him show us here in what
manner the decrees of councils, the bulls of popes, the oaths of the
clergy, and the infallibility of the church are to be disposed of, if we
could promise ourselves that the prevalence of his party in this coun-
try would not be an end of all those free and equitable institutions,
which have made these United States the wonder and the admiration
of the world.

Is it of the essence of this superstition to root out and destroy every
antagonist principle, tenet, and party ; or is itmerely accidental, that
Rome can endure no living rival ] Has not the Roman see even when
a foreign empire always sought to he above all gods or magistrates :
and does it not now bind every bishop on earth under the most heart
searching and conscience binding oaths and anathemas, to defend and

ROMAN CATHOI/IC RELIGIOX. 305

keep the Roman papacy, and the royalties of St. Peter, saving his own
order against all men 1 Is not my opponent thus sworn 1 Has he
not bound himself as he shall answer to God in the great day, by the
most solemn imprecations to preserve, defend, increase and advance the
authority of his lord the pope, and his successors canonically coming
in 1 — He has so sworn — ^just as certainly, as he has sworn " to persecute
and oppose all heretics and schismatics," as we read from an oath
which he has not yet had the courage to deny. It is, indeed, a part
of the same oath.

It will require the ingenuity of a Jesuit to show how these duties to
the pope can consist with the obligations of the oath of naturalization,
or the duties which a citizen of this country owes to its government.
But before I comment further on the oath, we will hear it to the end :

"I ivill come to a couhciI when 1 am called, unless I be hindered by a cano-
nical impediment. I will by mysell' in person visit the threshold of the apostles
every three years: and give an account to our Lord and his aloresaid successors
of all my pastoral oflice, and of all things any wise belonging to the state of my
church, to the discipline of my clergy and people, and lastly to the salvation of
souls coniniittcd to nu' trust; and will diligently execute the apostolic connnands.
And if 1 be detained by a lawful impediment, I will perform all things aforesaid
by a certain messenger hereto specially empowered, a member of n)y chapter,
or some other ecclesiastical dignity, or else having a parsonage; or in default
of these, by a priest of the diocese; or in default of one of the clergy, [of the
diocese] by some other secular or regular priest of approved integrity and re-
ligion, fully instructed in all things above mentioned. And such impediment
I will make out by lawful proofs to be transmitted by the aforesaid messenger to
the cardinal proponent of the holy Roman church in the congregation of the
sacred council. The possessions belonging to my table, I will neither sell, nor
give away, nor mortgage, nor grant anew in fee, nor any wise alienate, no, not
even witFi the consent of the cliapter of my chunh, without consulting the Ro-
man PonlilT And if 1 shall make any ;dienation, I will thereljy incur the penal-
ties contained in a certain constitution put forth iibotit this matter. So help me
God and these holy Gospels of God." I'ontif. Rom. Antwerp. Anno 1626 —
pp. 59, 86. [Time expired.]

Half past 3 o'clock, P. M.
Bishop Purcki.i. rises —

Mr. Campbell begs me to follow iiim. 1 am following him; but
the truth is that my learned friend runs away so fast from bis own
reason, that it is not surprising if lie fr<ts abfacl f)f mine. My friends,
I promise to satisfy you on the vital (jnislion of civil liixrly. Ho
will not i)C able to draw mc oil' from my argument. He is a foreign-
er, an Irishman, as well as I, and I am sorry to see, that while ho
breathes, be would infect, the almospbero of freedom. We are both
indebted to Americii for the liiierty wiiieli we enjoy, which he as a dis-
senter, and I, as a (Jalholic, would not iiave enjuyed umler the /Vo-
testanl Goi-rrnmrnt of (ireat Hrilain, in our native laml. For myself,
I am an adopted American citizen, having renounced, by oatb, all for-
eign allegiance. It is my only desire to live and act as an American
freeman sboiibl, and esraiie the c.iarge which rests on foreiirnerK like
my worthy o|)|>rm(iit, and those .Scfitch fanaticH in New ^'(l^k, who
volunteer to teaeb Annrieans how to uiidirHlan<l their own eoiiRti-
tution. These, and their like, are the men who cause all the rxrilo-
■lent about religion. 'J'bey, and not ihr; Catholics, are the real mid-
chief makers. This, I say, more in sorrow than in anger, and exclu-
sively with the \'\vw of doing justice to the truth. Let uh appreciate
the blessings we here enjoy, and not withhold, or mar thi-ni. We
have not here imbibed the spirit of controvr rsy, which may be called
2 A 2 3'J

3UG DKBATE ON THR

the spirit of the world, but tho spirit of chnrity, which is the spirit
of God. 'I'he former is prcdicatcil fir anothor iiioridian.

I will now finish my arcrmiKnils on the real presence. St. Paul,
speaking of the dispositions with which the Kucharist was to be re-
ceived, seals the proof deduced from the words of tho institution and
the promise. His words are these : " When you come therefore to-
gether into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord's supper." The
apostle condemns their parlakinrr of liiis, as of ordinary food. " What,"
says he, " have you not houses to eat and to drink in 1 or despise ye
the church of God; and put them to shame that have not] What
shall I say to you ? Do 1 praise you ? In this I praise you not. For
I have received of the Lord, thv.t which also, I delivered unto yon,
that the Lord .Tesus, the same nitrht in which he was betrayed, took
bread. And giving- thanks, broke, and said : 'Take ye an4 eat; this
is my body which shall be delivered for )'ou; this do for a commemo-
ration of me.' In like manner, also, the chalice, after he had supped,
saying: ' This chalice is the New Testament in my blood ; this do
ye as often as you shall drink it, for the commemoration of me.' For
as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall
shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever
shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall
be guilty of the body, and blood of the Lord. But let a man prove
hims(!lf, and so let him eat of that bread, arid drink of that chalice.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, cateth and drinkelh judg-
ment unto himself, not discerning the body of the Lord." 1st. Ep.
Cor. ch. xi. Here the most virtuous and pious dispositions under
the dread penalty, of receiving the body and blood of the Lord un-
worthily, and thus incorporating, and making our ccmdemnation a
portion of our flesh and blood and being, are required of the Catholic
communicant, and yet my worthy opponent quotes this sanctifying
doctrine among the immoralities of the Catholic church !

But my friend objects to transubstantiation. Then let him differ
from Luther and the Episcopalians, for the real presence, without
transubstantiation, which they teach, is a greater difficulty. If the
bible be our guide, let us adhere to .it. What was the first miracle
which our Savior wrought] Was it not the changing of water into
wine '.' transubstantiation ] My friend says that he has never read on
this subject, nor studied it. I do not wonder that he says it is so ab-
surd, if he never gave it serious consideration. (Mr. Campbell here ex-
plained that he had said that he had never read a controversial treatise
on the subject, but affirmed that he had reflected on it, and studied it)
Not only the first miracle, but every tWng in nature confirms the doc-
trine. The bread and meat that my friend ate, a week ago, is, this
day, flesh and blood and bone of his body. So of trees, — the juices
they draw from the soil, are converted into branches and verdure. Na-
ture, in fact, is re|)lete with evidences illustrative of the possibility
of transubstantiation. If you wish for a human testimony, interro-
gate christian antiquity. St. Ignatius, the disciple of the apostles,
in his Epistle to the church of Smyrna, speaking of heretics, says,
" They do not admit of I'^ucharists and oblations, because they do
not believe the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior, Jesus Christ,
who suffered for our sins."

Origen says ; " Manna was formerly given, as a figure ; but now

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 307

the flesh and blood of the Son of God are specifically given, and are
real food."

St. Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem, says:

" Since Christ hiciiself affirms thus of the bread, This is my body; who is so
daring as to doubt of it? and since he aflfirnis, this is my blooJ; who will deny
that it is his blood? At Canain Galilee, he, by an act of his will, turned water into
wine, which resembles blood, and is he then not to be credited when he changes
wine into blood? Therefore, full of certainty, let us receive the body and blood
of Christ; for under the form of bread, is given to thee his body, and under
the form of wine, his blood."

St. Ambrose thus argues with his spiritual children :

"You will say, why do you till nie that I receive the body of Christ,
when I see quite another thing? We have tliis point therefore to prove. How
many examples do we produce to show von, that this is not what nature made it;
but what the benediction has consecrated it; and that the benediction is of greater
force than nature, because by the benediction, nature itsi If is changed ! Mos. 8 C8«t
bis rod upon the ground, anil it be~ame a serpent; he caught hold of the serpent's
tail, and it recovered the nature of a rod. The rivers of Kgypt,&c. Thou hast
read of the creation of the world: If Christ, by his word, w-as able to make ^onle-
thing out of nothing, shall he not be thought able to change one thing into another."

My friend spoke of the period at which this doctrine was introduced,
and quoted Scotus. I venture my life, that he does not know who
Scotus was, or when he lived. I ask my friend to tell me, who is this
Scotus, to whom he referred.

Mr. Campbell. — 1 presume he was a father of the church.

Bishop Pcrcell. — I do not speak disrespectfully of my friend, but
I do not like this index learning :

" Which turns no student pole,
Yet holrls the eel of science by the tail."
There were two individuals whom he has confounded. The first,
called Scotus Kvigena, lived in the ninth century, and wrote a treatise
against the real presence, which was condemned in many councils.
The second flourished in the fourteenth century, and taught theology
in Oxford and Paris. Or, instead of either of the foretroiiiff. does the
gentleman quote Soto, the theologian, sent by Charles V. of CJermany,
to the council of Trent 1 Of which of them does the gentleman
speak 1 1 pause for a reply. (Pauses.)

Mr. Campbell. — You may proceed.

Bishop Purcell. — I will proceed to settle this point.

Mr. Campbell. That is not the question before us.

Bi.SHop I'iRCELL. Well, then, my friends, I will take \ip the sub-
ject of indulgences, against which my friend had directed his batteries.
An indulgence is no license to commit sin. The Catholic church ana-
thematizes the doctrine that any man, or set of men, can irriuit a licenso
to commit sin. She tj-aches that an indulgence is nothing more nor
less than a remission of the tem|)oral punishment, whirh often remains
attached to sin, afu-r the eternal guilt has been forgiven to the sinner,
on his sincere repentance. Before proving this doctrine both «criplurnl
and rational, and that the church is guilty of I'licouraging no inimorn-
lity by the power \vlii( h she exercises in the grantinu of indulgenceK, I
must shew that tlie ehiirge of iiumorality presses heiivily on my oppo-
nent's doctrine, and not on mine, for he teiiches that the disiinclion be-
tween greater and lesser sins is not found in Hcriplure. lie ban advo-
cated the monstrous, and insupportabbf dortrine, that ihn child who
tells an untruth, to save itself from punishment, in as guilty an the
parricide who cuts his father's throat! and accuses Catholics of being

308 DEBATE ON THE

immoral, because they do not subscribe to such a doctrine as this !
What is the efilct of tliis doctrine, that all sins are equal 1 Why, it
is this : that the man who h;is committed the slicrhtcst sin, is as guilty
in the sight of God, and as (U'servliig of hciiig diinincd, as if his sins
were ever so enormous. " If this be my lot," is his spontaneous rea-
soning, "I see no cause why my passions should not have all the ad-
vantage of this doctrine. 1 will, therefore, continue to sin. No na-
tural law, no divine legislation, no civil convention, or moral restraint,
shall debar me of my pleasures." This is revolting; it is horrible.
Scripture, reason, and Catholicism, anathematize it. I now resume
the proof of my position, touching indulgences, and maintain that after
the eternal guilt is remitted, a temporal pain is often inflicted for the
satisfaction of divine justice. Thus, when Adam and Eve had sinned
in paradise, when they had incurred the Divine displeasure, and heard
the dread sentence pronounced against them and their posterity, even
in his wrath the Almighty remembered mercy. They were driven
from Eden, but not into hell. In other words, the eternal guilt of their
sin was forgiven, but the temporal punishment still remained to be
endured. (There is some doubt whether Eve partakes of her consort's
happiness in heaven, or not; but Adam, we are assured by scripture,
is m heaven.) " In the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat thy bread,"
said the Lord, "the earth shall be accursed in thy toil, briars and
thorns," &c. We are bearing a part of their punishment. We feel
the effects of this primeval prevarication. The whole earth is a hospi-
tal. Poverty, crime, disease, war, pestilence, and Aimine ; physical,
moral, and mental afflictions, and evils; all the quarreling; all the
differences of opinion; this very controversy; all this is a part of
the temporal punishment of our first parents' transgression. This
shews the difference between the temporal and eternal punishment of
sin. Behold another illustration. David takes Uriah's wife— he orders
Uriah into the front of the battle that he might be killed. The Al-
mighty, incensed at his double crime, sends his prophet to rebuke him,
and David trembles before his wrath. God is moved, and p^irdons
him. He remits the eternal guilt of his sin, but notits temporal punish-
ment. "The child that is born for thee shall die." We know all the
evils that followed ; Absalom, &c. The doctrine of indulgences is this :

WHEN A HUMAN BEING DOES EVERY THING IN HIS POWER TO ATONE FOR

SIN, God has left a power in the church, to remit a part or the entire of
the temporal punishment due to it. It is always understood, that no
matter what the church does, the indulgence is of no effect, if the re-
pentance be not sincere. I will give you a striking example from
scripture. It is the case where St. Paul absolved the''incestuous man
of Corinth, 2d Cor. ii. 6, 8, who had been guilty, even in the early awe
of the church, of a crime which struck the hearts of all the church
with dismay. St. Paul wrote to Corinth and said, when he heard that
the man was overwhelmed with contrition, and shunned by all the
people, "To him that is such a one this rebuke is sufficient, that is
given by many. And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also.
For what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes
have I done it in the person of Christ." One text is worth twenty
arguments. The obedience rendered to St. Paul on this occasion, by
the church of Corinth, rny friend denounces. But the early christians
were more humble, and Paul was guilty of no assumption in demand-

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 309

ing it. "In the person of Christ," — mark those words — that he, in
the person of Chrisl, forgave — wliat ? — not the eternal guilt of the in-
cestuous man — God alone could forgive that ; but the temporal punish-
ment ; to restore him to the privileges of the church and of cliristian
society. Nothing is more frequent in the ecclesiastical history of the
early ages, than the narrative of the acts of the naartyrs ; and tliis,
among others, of their being visited in prison, or met in their way to
execution, by persons condemned to perform public penances, accord-
ing to the discipline of the church in those days, and supplicated for a
ticket, or other intimation of intercession in their behalf, with the pas-
tors of the church, that the term of these penances might be abridged,
in consideration of the martyr's generous sacrifices. One drop of
Christ's precious blood was sufficient to ransom a thousand worlds.
He left this treasure and its keys to the church, saying, "Whatever
you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed in heaven," &c. But I will
give you other examples to illustrate the doctrine of indulgences. The
English church grants indulgences. Luther granted them, of an extra-
ordinary kind too. Our government grants indulgences. An insolvent
debtor hangs his head with shame; there is nothing he would not do
to pay his debts. The law takes him to jail — he gives a schedule of
his property, and upon surrendering all he possesses in the world, up6n
oath, he is allowed to take the benefit of the act. This is what the
church does to sinners, who sincerely repent and do all they can, first,
to pay the spiritual debts that stand against them. Shew me that there
is anything wrong in the insolvent laws, and then you may find fault
with the practice of the church. As for the pope, or bishop, giving a
license to sin, I will repeat as often as it is repeated, that the Catholic
church reprobates it. If all the bishops in the world, and the pope
were to sign such a license, the sinner would not be forgiven, if he re-
mained in sin. God l^imself does not pardon sin upon these terms.
But I cannot consent that the gentleman should force down our throats
doctrines that we abominate. — [Time expired.]

Four o'clock, P. M.
Mr. Campbell risen—

Really, my friends, it would seem as if I ought to go hack some
two or three days to help my opponent forward to th(! subject now
before us. But I will not. There is no person in this house, with
the exception of my ingenious opponent, who believes that I repre-
sent all sins as equal as resprT.ts man. Though as respects the di-
vine law, as alr«'ady observed, they are e<|iial!y transgressions of it.
Hence, as James the apostle avers : " He that ofieiids in one point,''''
though he should keep every other, "is f^uilly of air! The gentle-
man, then, may defend his " white lies," and cither violations of God's
law, as lie pJeiiHcs; but God will show tiie universe that, as respects
his character, as Lawgiver and King, the least infrartion, as respects
man, is the highest insult that can be rendered to the I/iwgiver.
Eve's " little sin," as the infidels call it, is the best i-xposilion of the
logic of Roman theology. Thougii it differs much in the estimation
of man from the treachery of Judas: yet, does not every ])age and
letter in man's sad history, bear witness, that even the |>ulliiig ofl" an
apple against the law of (iofi, is an offence that justifies the (Gover-
nor of the Universe for having suflcred the whole creation on our

310 DEBATE ON THE

planet to groan and travail together in pain and death for thousands of
years.

To the unpropilious destiny of my opponent I attribute all his re-
marks on my saying ihat 1 read no tracts in confutation of transub-
slaniiation. Does that prove that I cannot refute — or that I have not
refuted his defence of it. The bible alone qualifies me to expose all
his sophistry, or tliat of any man, on that grossest and most un-
feasible of all the impostures that have, in any age or nation, been
obtruded on mankind.

The gentleman has spoken of various natural transubstantiations !
Astonishing ! Who ever thought any thing else, but that all organi-
zed bodies, all earthly substances, nay, indeed, that all matter was
susceptible of real changes, and new combinations and transubstanti-
ations ■? But where is the analogy ] They are real and apparent,
visible and sensible transubstantiations. But the universe affords
no transubstantialion, similar to that for which the Bishop contends —
Nothing transubstantiated, and yet the same to all our sense and
reason.

But in the name of reason itself, what distress or pressure of mis-
fortune has induced this learned gentleman to appeal to the miracle
in Cana of Galilee — to the transubstantiation of water into wine 1 That
was really a transubstantiation. It did not look like water — taste
like water, smell like water, nor operate like water. It was real wine,
in color, taste, smell, and all its sensible properties. What a refuta-
tion has the gentleman found in his own illustration ! !

The Bishop's remarks upon " eating the word,'''' &c. &c., are equal-
ly unhappy, and extravagant. He has not done himself any honor on
this occasion. Jesus said, " it is my meat and my drink to do the
will of him that sent me." Truth is an aliment of the soul, and do-
ing the will of heaven is a feast to every christian. But can the soul
feast on literal flesh and blood ] ! 'Tis an outrage on common sense !

I was glad to hear him even quote the words, " Judge you what I
say :" any appeal to reason, any word favorable to examination, com-
ing from that quarter, falls on my ear like the sound of the dulci-
mer. Jesus says, " Why do you not of yourselves judge what is
right;" and Paul says, " Judge what I say ;" and John commands,
" Believe not every spirit ; but try the spirits, for many false prophets
are gone forth into the world." Now all these commands are address-
ed to the common mass of christians. Well, then, says Paul, " The
loaf for which we give thanks, is it not the communion of the body ol
Christ," &c. ; " and the cup which we bless, is it not the communion
of the blood ?" &c. : and the whole is called the Lord's table, the
Lord's supper — an institution in remembrance of one that is absent,
" Tii>L HE COME :" — uot the eating of one present, but the memorial
of one absent. " You then," says Paul, " do show forth the Lord's
death till he come.''''

The Corinthian abuses show, that they had no notion of a wafer
and no wine — of a mass, a transubstantiation. Paul reproved them
for their irregularities, and said this was not to eat the Lord's supper,
(not to partake of a mass) : for some had eaten and even drunk to excess.
The rich had brought a large supper, and put the poor to shame, who
had no supper to bring. These were abuses which could never have
arisen out of the doctrine of transubstantiation. In one word, there
was as much transubstantiation in the passover, because it is called the

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 311

" Lord's passover," as there is in the institution of the supper, be-
cause it is called the " Lord's body :" and he that cannot thus " dis-
cern the Lord's body," in this institution, is not to be reasoned with
on any religious question.

Next comes the gentleman's splendid episode on the identification
of the unfortunate Scotus, whose peculiar age and country I am no
more bound to remember, or to tell here, than I am to relate the per-
sonal or family history of every individual I quote. How many au-
thors are daily quoted, whose age and country, not one in a hundred,
may be able to relate with historic accuracy ! Are those who cite Co-
pernicus, Zoroaster, Euclid, or even Nowton, obliged to tell when or
where they were born, lived and died T It is, however, on the au-
thority of Bellarmine I quoted this celebrated Roman Catholic au-
thor, and ought 1 not, on such an endorsement, to regard Scotus as of
hiorh authority in the Roman church 1

rime is becoming very precious, and as I have only two speeches
after to-day, I shall not go farther into the details of the proposition,
now under discussion, especially as I have not been met by the Bish-
op on the two grand errors which nourish and sustain the baseless
dream of purgatory and the sacraments of penance, auricular confes-
sion, the mass, &c. &c.

Indulgence is not identical with absolution, as my opponent seems
to argue. Indulgence, as the term imports, is a licence to sin : abso-
lution is the forgiveness of sin. An indulgence gives licence to sin,
because it promises the person prospectively an exemption from the
punishment ; and even to remain, in full force, in the moment of
death !

My seventh proposition says :

"Tlic Roman Cath )lic religioii, if infjllible and insusceptible of lefornntion,
as allejjerl, is essentially anti-Anierican, being opposed to the genins of all free
institutions, and pDsitivdy subversive of thein, opposing the general reading of
the scripturis, and the dillu-ion of useful knowledge among the whole commu-
nity, so essential to librrty and the permanency of good government."

"Essentially anti-American." — This I have so far proved, as refer-
ence has already been made to those doctrines, which make the Roman
Catholic population abject slaves to their priests, bishops, and popes —
to that hierarchy, which has always opposed freedom of thought, of
speech, and of action, whether iu literature, politics, or religion. Such
are the laws of mind — such the inlelleclual and moral constitution of
man, that if in religion the mind hit enslaved to any superstition, espe-
cially in youth, it rarely or ever can be emancipated and invigorated.
The benumbing and paralizing influence of Itmnanism is such, as to
disqualify a person for the relish and enjoyment of political liberty.
For in all history, civil liberty follows in the wake of religious liberty ;
insomuch, that it is almost an oracle of |)hilosophy, that religious liberty
is the cause, and political liberty an effect of that cause, without
which it never has been found. Compare not I'rotestant America with
the republics of (ireecn or Rome; for there is scarcely any jmint of
coincidence in this respect. There never was on earth so free and so
equitable an institution as the Protestant insiitiitions of these United
States.

We shall now exemplify lh<! spirit and tendency of Homanism, taken
from the five himdred years in which it was most lrium|)hanl.

As a specimen of that abject slavery of Romanists to their superiors,

312 DEBATE ON THE

and of the humility of the popes, of which my friend has so often
spoken, take the foilowinpr example.

" Acconling to tliis doctrine then current at Rome, in the last Lateran great
synod, under the Pope's nose, ani\ in his ear, one bishop styled him Prince of
the world; another orator called him Kint^ of kiu^s, and Monarch of the earth;
another great prelate said of liim, that he had all power above all potoers,
both of heaven and earth. And the same roused up Pope Leo X. in these brave
terms: " Snatch up therefore the two-edged sword of divine power, committed to
thee; and enjoin, command, and charge, that an universal peace and alliance be
made among christians for at least ten years; and to that bind kings in fetters
of the great king, and constrain nobles by the iron manacles of censures: for
to thee is given all power in heaven and in earth."

"This is the doctrine which liarronius, with a Roman confidence, doth so often
assert and drive forward, saying, "that there can be no doubt of it, but that the
civil principality is subject to the sacerdotal: and that God hath made the poli-
tical government subject to the dominion of the spiritual church." Epis. Patrac.
Sess. 10, p. 133. Barronius, Annal>, 57. 23.

It is Barronius, and not l)u Pin, says, " that God has made the poll-
iical government subject to the spiritual.'''' This is the true doctrine of
popery. But we shall hear another great cardinal.

Again Btllarmine says; " Ry reason of the spiritual power, tlie pope, at least,
indirectly, hath a supreme power even in tenipoial matters."

Concerning which. Dr. Barrow rightly ohserves, "If the pope may
strike princes, it matters not much whether it be by a downright blow
or slantingly."

We shall now very hastily run back from A. D. 1585 to 730, and
give a few specimens of the true spirit, and tone, and action, of this
institution, during its ascendency.

A. D. 1585. "The bull of Pope Sixtus V. against the two sons of wrath,
Henry, King of Navarre, and the Prince of Conde, beginneth thus: 'The au-
thority given to St. Peter and his successors, by the immense power of the eter-
nal king, excels all the powers of earthly kings and princes. — It passes uncon-
trollable sentence upon them all — and if it find any of them resistmg God's or-
dinance, it takes more severe vengeance of them, casting them down from their
thrones, though never so puissant, and tumbling them down to the lowest parts
of the earth, as the ministers of aspiring Lucifer.' And then he proceeds to
thunder against them, ' We deprive them and their posterity forever of their
dominions, and -kingdoms;' and accordingly he depriveth those princes of their
kingdoms and dominions, absolveth their subjects from their oaths of allegiance,
and forbiddeth them to pay any obedience to them. 'By the authority of these
presents, we do absolve and set free all persons, as well jointly as severally,
from any such oath, and from all duty whatsoever in regard of dominion, fealty
and obedience, and do charge and forbid all and every of them that they do not
dare to obey them, or any of their admonitions, laws, and commands." Bulla
Sixti V. Contra Henr. Navarre, R. &c.

Is this the genius of our government ? Are these the doctrines of
the United States ] Here you have kings hurled from their thrones,
and subjects released from their allegiance, without ceremony, by the
vicars of Christ and the head of the church ! Who is this that sets
aside oaths, and religious obligations, in the name of the Lord 1
" Why," says the modern Roman Catholic, " do you bring up these
old things V Not so very old ! But will the bishop mention the
council that ever repudiated this doctrine?

The bishop says, ' they have been repudiated.' I thank him for
conceding that they once existed ! But now for the proof of their re-
pudiation. Nothing is infallible but a general council ; and what gene-
ral council has set since the days of pope Sixtus V. 1 ! ! The council
of Trent convened Dec. 13, 1515, and all its decrees were confirmed
by the pope Jan. 26, 1564 ; consequently, the bull of pope Sixtus V.

EO:HAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 313

i% the bull of the Reformed Infallible Roman church after the council
of Trent ! ! If it were orthodox then, it is orthodox now.

We shall now hear pcpc Pius V. (almost canonized,) excommuni-
cate the queen of England, and for aught I know, we Protestants were
all excommunicated at the same time.

A. D. 1570. *' He that n ig-iieth on hig:h, to whom is given all power in heaven
and in earth, hath committed the one holv, Catholic and Apostolic church, out
of wliich there is no salvation, to one aline on earth, namely, to Peter, prince
ol the apostles; and to the Roman pontirt', successor of Peter, to be governed
with a plenitude of power; this one he hath constituted prince ovei all nations,
and ail l<ingdoni?, that he mifht pluck up, destrov, dissipate, ruinate, plant,
and build." — And in the same bull he declares, that ' he thereby deprives the
queen of her pretended right to the kingdom, and of all dominion, dignity, and
urivdege whatsoever; and absolves all the nobles, subjects, and people of the
kingdom, and whoever else have sworn to her, from their oath and nil duty
whatsoever, in regard of dominion, fidelity and obedience." [Camp. Hist,
anno. 1570.

That this was not peculiar to one individual, but of the spirit of the
system, appears from the following facts:

Pope Clement V[. did pretend to depose the Emperor Lewis IV.

Pope Clement V. in the great synod of Vienna, declared the emperor subject
to him, or standing obliged to him by a proper oath of feaUy. TClem. lib.
ii. tit. 9. ^ r I J .

Pope Boniface VIII. hath a decree extant in the canon law running thu» :
• We declare, say, define, pronounce it to be of necessity to salvation, for everj
human creature to be su!)ject to the Roman pontiff."

A. D. 1294. "For one sword, saith he, must be under another, and the tem-
poral authority nmst be subject to the spiritual power: — whence, if the earthlj
power doth go astray, it must be judged by the spiritual jjower." Ibid.

This definition snys Dr. Barrow, at the foot of whose pages we have the Latin
original of all these dccrcfs, might pass for rant of that boisterous pope (a man
above measure, ambitious and arrogant) vented in his passion against king Philip
of F" ranee, if it had not the advantage (of a greater than which no papaldecree
is capable) of being expressly confirmed by one of their general councils; for,
' We (saith Pope Leo X. in his Lull read and passed in the Lateron council) do
renew and approve that lioly con.stitution, with approbation of the present holy
council.' Accordingly Mech Cauns saith, that ' the Latt-ran <.ouncil did renew
and approve that extravagant Cindeed extravagant) constitution:' and Barro-
nius saith of it, that • all do assent to it, so that none dissenteth who do not by
discord fall from the church.'

The truth 1% pope Boniface did not invent that proposition, but borrowed it
from the school; for Thoma.s Acpiinas in hit work agmn-tt the (Ireeks, prctend-
eth *o iihow, that it it of nectssity to salvation lo be subject to the Roman
Ponlij:' •'

The appendix to Mart Pol sail'i of pope Boniface VIII. < Ref^tm it Rcf^tm,
J^Inndi M'lnarchitm.unicum in spiriliialihus el temporalihus Dominum promnU
^vit;' that he openly declared LinWeU to be the king of kings, monarch of the
world, and sole lord and governor both in spirituals a\\i\ temporals.

Before him, pope Innocent IV. did hold aud cxem|)Jify the same notion; de-
claring the emperor Frederick II. his vassal, oiid denouncing in his general coun-
cil of Lyons, a sentence of deprivation against him iii these terms: We linving,
about the foregoing and many otiier his wicked miscarriages, had bef'ire n care-
ful deliberatinn »\ith our brethren and lb-- holy council, seeing that we, although
unworthy, do holil the place of Je«u» Christ on earth, and that it was said unto
IIS in the person of .St. Peter the npoallc, whatever thou shaUbinil on earth — tha
•aid prince (who halli rcHdered himsdf unworthy of empire and kingdiMin, and
of all honor and dignity, and tvho for his iiiir|uities is cast nway by (><>d, and that
he should not reign or coiniiiand, being biiind by his sins and cast nway, and
deprived by the I.or«l of nil honor and tiignilv) do show. <!enoiince, and accor-
dingly, by sentence, deprive; absolving nil who are luld hound by nnth of alle-
giance from such f)ath forever; by apostolical authority firmly prohibiting, that
no man henceforth do obey or rcg^ird hini at eniperor or king; and decreeing^

2 1} 40

314 DEBATE ON THR

that whoever shall hereafter yield advice, or aid, or favor to him as emperor or
kini^, shall iintuediately lie under the baiui of excommunication."

Before him, pope Innocent the third, (that true wonder ol the world, and
changer of the ago.) did aliirm the pontifical authority so much to exceed the
royal power, as the sun doth the moon; " and applieth to the former that of the
prophet Jeremiah: Kcrc, consliini ie super genles et regna; — see, I have set
thee over the nations and over the kingdoms to root out and to pull down, and
to destroy and to throw down," (tec.

Article xxiii. Pope Pius IV. "I do acknowledge the holy Catholic and
apostolic Roman church to be the mother and mistress of all churches; and I
do promise and swear true obedience to the bishop of Rome, the successor of
Peter, the prince of apostles, and the vicar of Jesus Christ." [Time expired.]

Half past 4 o'clock, JP. M.
Bishop Pcrcem. rises —

My friends, Mr. Kinmont will read, before I close, what Liguori says on
the subject of Mr. Smith's charges asjainst the Catholic church. It affords
me more pleasure than I can express, to have an opportunity of proving, by a
gentleman, who is not a Catholic, and therefore is a disinterested witness, as far
as I and my religion are concerned, tliat it is all a base slander.

We have heard a great deal about the pope's deposing kings, and absolving
subjects from their oaths of allegiance, and so on. In your presence and
hearing therefore, I am going to put my friend into one of the most terrible di-
lemmas in which he has ever been placed in his life. Now, sir, (addressing
Mr. C.) suppose you had been living at the time of the American Revolu-
tion, and were witness to the tyranny, which these colonies had to endure,
on the part of his most gracious majesty, king George III. of England : when
the spirit of a mighty and a numerous people was roused by excess of wrong,
to make one vast effort for freedom. Under these circumstances, the Gene-
ral in chief, the officers, and the army, the revenue department, and post-
masters, all of whom had taken an oath of allegiance to that king, appeal to
you, inquiring, what is to be done ? Asking you if the oath was binding.
"What would be your reply ?

Mn. Campbell. If they had taken a solemn oath, they should not
break it.

Bisuor PnacKLL. Then was George Washington a perjurer, and all the
officers of the array and navy, all the signers of the Declaration of Inde-
pendence, and all the subjects of the king of Great Britain were perju-
rers ! I

Mr. CAMrDELi.. That docs not follow from my answer to your question.

Bisuup PuiicELL. And what would you have persons to do, who had
taken the oath of allegiance ?

Mn. Campbell. " It is better not to vow, than to vow and not pay" — as
sa-th the good Book.

Mr. Campbell rose and said, that for his part, we should always do our
duty, and leave consequences to God. When he intends the deliverance of a
people, he will effect for them redemption, as he did for his people out of
Egypt,

Bishop Puhcell, There is no oath of artificial contrivance, stronger than
the natural tie between the subject and the king, the governed and the gov-
ernment ; of whatever form it may be. This is an oath, jirior and superi ir to
all other oaths. But if those of the colonists, who had not taken a conventional
oatli, or an oath of office, to the king of England, had alone rebelled, what could
thpy have done"! Were not the army and the civil and military officers bound by
their oath to resist rebellion 1 How then could human rights have been vin-
dicated, or human wrongs redressed ? You have repeatedly said " vox popnli.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 315

VOX Bei," in the course of this discussion ; in other words that the
people's will was the most authentic interpretation of the will of God,
that it could give a call to the ministry and give to its choice a right
to exercise spiritual powers ! ! Thus, my friends, you see the dilem-
ma to which the gentleman has been reduced, and that, while Catho-
lics are reproached for their slavish tenets, he himself teaches the
whole doctrine of passive obedience, and condemns the very principle
of the American Revolution. I leave you to reflect on what the gen-
tleman has uttered. Now mark the diflference. Had my friend deci-
ded my question, as the Father of his country did similar ones, he
would have been sustained by the voice and the spirit of the American
people — and of all denominations thereof, both Catholics and Protest-
ants, the contemporaries of a struggle in which, they, who engaged at
this side the water, " periled everv thing but their sacred honor."
Whereas, the pope, when he absolved from their oath the English
Catholics, whose were the lands, and the houses, the churches and the
schools, the hospitals and the glory of England ; whose sufferings ex-
ceeded those of the American colonists as much as the Alieghanies do
a grain of sand, decided upon far better grounds than did the sages of
our Revolution, that passive obedience, under such circumstances,
ceased to be a virtue. Yet one word more — the absolution was con-
sidered by those very Catholics, an exceeding of his powers, and ihey
did not act upon it. His decision was, for them, no article of faith.

My friend's next resort, in the way of documentary evidence, is to
the Encyclopedia of religious knowledge, just published. He does
not know the author, or the entire title of the work, nor the history c(
its " getting up." Fessendon is the author of the volume.

Mr. Campbell. I do know the author, but bishop Purcell does not.

Bishop Purcell. That is Protestant Jesuitism. He is the pub-
lisher. In the New York Churchman of a recent date, there is a story
told of a most egregious imposture practised on the patrons of this
same volume. The editors professed to give the views of the
different sects, in the very words of their respective standards, or ac-
credited writers, and carefully disguised the fact, tiiat it was to be sub-
servient to the interests of one particular sect, the Baptists. They ap-
plied to an Episcopal minister, to write an nrticlr; on Episcojiacy, and
to patronize the publication. This looked like fair play — the poor
minister was caught in the snare and signed his name recommending
the Encyciopirdia. But lo ! when the work appeared, it was wholly
opposed lo Episcopalianism ; and this fliigrant violation of the faith
due to the public from the publishers, elicited a most cutting, hut at
the same time, most merited castigation from the (Episcopal) Church-
man. I hope the article will he read, by every sincere en(|uirer after
truth, that he may bo able to appreciate, according to its value, this
new humbug.

We come bark to the Jesuits. It w;is so notorious; to I'Vederick,
the Great, of Prussia, tli;it the .Jesuits had been cainmniated, and most
foully dealt with, that, Protestant, as he was, he received them in his
dominions, and placed them in many of his colleges. He told ih*; other
kings of Europe that they wrmld soon be sorry for the expulsion of an
order that had donesomiK-h for lilcralnrt! and srieiiee. "The day will
come," said he, "when you will be offering me, 300 pounds for a j)ro-
curator, 400, for a professor, 600, for a Rector, and a per valorem, for

81G DEBATE ON THE

inferior officers of the Jesuits, but depend upon it, I will fleece yoa
well. I will make you pay dearly for your folly." Frederick was a
great judge of human nature, my friends, and he had a keen sense of
the superior claims of the .lesuiis, for good scholarship, and moralily.
Hence his kingdom and his palace were given ihein, with his own
confidence. The celebrated preacher, Bourdaloue, was a Jesuit, and
who has ever preached a sounder, or a purer morality ]

My worthy friend said, the Jesuits supported kings and monarchs,
and were for crushing the people; and most grossly did he contradict
himself, by stating almost at the same moment, that they were the most
formidable enemies of kings, and it was for their opposition to their
measures, that kings banished them from several of the kingdoms of
Europe. Thus they were, according to his account, the supporters of
kings and the enemies of kings! 'Phe infamous Pombal of Portugal
bejan the crusade against the Jesuits. Read his history, and it will be
their best vindication — or see them ainong the savages of Paraguay !
This word alone reveals to the intelligeu't reader, a series of wonders
perfonned for God, humanity and viriur, such as the world, perhaps,
has never witnessed since the establishment of Christianity.

Next comes the theocracy of the Jews. And is not Jehovah nur
king also ] Is he not ever Lord over all 1 Do we not acknowledge
that there is no power but from him ? My argument was this. If it
be essentially incompatible with liberty, to obey the same ruler in
temporal and ecclesiastical things, God could not have established
such a government on earth. But, God did establish such an authorr
ity ; therefore, it is not incompatible with liberty. I do not wish to
see ii now, unless God should vouchsafi; to be as iiaanifestly our king,
as he was the king of the J(!ws ; which is not to happen iinder the
Christian dispensation, as it did under the old law. (Mirist has de-
clared, that his kingdom is not of this world. My worthy opponent
said, that the fleshly body and the heavenly body of Christ, were not
the same. I ask, then, what became of his fleshly body 1 Did it rot
in the ground 1 I call on him to answer this queslion. "Thou wilt
not leave my soul in hell," says David, "nor wilt Ihou suffer Iky Holy
One to see corruption." (Ps. xv. 10.) It was spiritualized, but still
the same body, according to what he said to his disciples, frighted at
this apparition, supposing they had seen a spirit : '• See my hands and
my feet .• it is myself: handle and see ,- for a spirit hath not flesh and hones,
as you sec me to have.'''' (Luke xxiv. 39.) He is "ever living,"
(Heb. vii. 25,) to make intercession for us, by the eloquent mouths of
his wounds, which he exhibits, for us, to his Father in heaven. He
gave them, as he had previously done to 'I'homas, the signs they
asked ; while he reprehended them, as he did that apostle, '■'■fir slouf-
neas of belief .''^ It was thus that, when the Jews murmured for meat
in the wilderness, loathing as light food the manna of heaven, God
gave them meat to satiety ; and afterwards, for their unbelief, not only
excluded them from the land of promise, but scattered their carcases
in the desert.

My friend told you, how nun h afraid he v.as of Catholics. My
friends, what a pretty tale he made of it. I was really going to say :
" Poor baby, do not be so afraid : do not be 3uc!i a coward : shake off
those old woman's fears about raw head and bloody bones, and be
more manly." Washington, though he lived in u less enlightened

B03Li:« CATHOLIC RELIGION. 317

age than this, was not afraid of Catholics. They stood by his side in
the battles for freedom. They never flinched, even at the cannon's
mouth. When he drew his sword for this republic, they followed its
beaminor to victory or to death. La Fayette, and hosts of others,
whose Irhaplains had said mass for them in the morning before the
engao-ement, bled or conquered in the trenches of liberty. And never
was ^orreeting more cordial, or triumph m.ore glorious, than theirs,
when^they mingled their salutations and tears with those of their
American companions in arms, at the surrender of Lord Cornwallis,
in York-Town. Witness, too, those noble poles, (Kosciusko! may
his shade rise up, and rebuke this spirit of intolerance !) the Irish, the
South Americans, all fighting for liberty, all Catholics. Look at
William Tell, a Roman Catholic. Go to Venice, for five hundred
years a republic, though surrounded by absolute governments. Look
at the little republic of .San Marino, of which John Adams has related
the remarkable history. There is not such a people for libeny, on the
globe, as the Roman Catholics. Look nearer home, at Maryland,
where the Catholics were the first that proclaimed freedom of

CONSCIENCE I.N THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE ! ! LeT THIS BE OUR ANSWER
TO A THOLSAND SLANDERS.

I come now to the oath of bishops. I have taken the oath of alle-
giance to the United States. It was the first I ever took. So have
all my brethren in the episcopacy taken it. The head of the Catholic
church in the United States, is an American; so is a large number of
our clergy. The rest preferred this country, believing there was here,
what their own country denies, what our constitution guarantees, lib-
erty of conscience. The oath that the bishops lake, is not a recogni-
tion of any temponil power of the po]»e, out of his own territory, called
the States of the Church, in Italy. We would never take the oath in
the odious sense, which my opponent would force upon it. This so-
lemn and authentic abjuration should, alone, be sufficient to settle this
account; for I surely know what I swear to, and that what I here
BUte will bo seen and read by those, whom no human fear could deter
from denouncing me for error, if I could be guilty of any, on a point
with which I ought to be so well informed. The arms of our warfare
are not carnal, but spiritual. He that takes the sword, we believe
with Jesus Christ, will die by the sword. Hence, we assume no ob-
ligations by that oath, hut such as God imposes; and those to be dis-
charged in his own divine spirit of meekness, charity, and good will.
It is cruel to impute to us crimes, and to insist that we hold doctrines,
which we disavow. Suppose I were so base, as to suborn two or
three wicked men, to calumniate my friend Mr. Cnmphell, and to ])rc-
tcnd that he was in active correspondence, for treasonable purposes,
with some foreign king, ought my opponent to be condemned unheard ?
And, in the absence of proof, should we, in spite of all his protesta-
tions to the contrary, cofidenm him on suspicion 1 And, if any family
had their reputation blaslt'd by some base miscreant, ought this to
destroy their estimation in sociely, where his baseness is known 1 All
the ministers in the world may eXert their talents and influence, to
preservt! ;md promote peace anrl love among mankind ; but as long a8
differences in religion are suffered to create jealousy, distrust, and ha-
tred between brethren; and certain men make it tlnir trade, to go
from town to town, for the express purpose of fanning these embers
•2 b -2

3 IS DEBATE ON TUE

of discord, fomenting this hatred ; so long will the purest and best
men continue to be the victims of the malevolent, and our religion, and
our constitution, prove to be no more than the idlest day-dream. All
the kings and slates of Kurope, Protestant and Catholic, know that
the bishops take that oalh, and yet, in none of them is a bishop looked
upon with distrust. In Prussia, Sweden, Denmark, England, the
government never molests a bishop about an oath, which is known to
contain nothing at wliich the most captious statesman could justly take
exception. Is not this sufficient proof, that there is in that oath noth-
ing of what my friend attributes to it. I assure him. Catholic bish-
ops are not the enemies that this republic needs to fear.

Kvery argument my friend employs against the Eucharist, only
proves him an inconsistent reasoner, or a deist, as far as the argument
goes. The paschal lamb was a figure of the eucharist, and the figure
was surely nobler than the reality, if we have nothing better than a
bit of bread in the eucharist. But the apostle tells us that the weak
and beggarly elements of the Jewish rites, were to obtain their glori-
ous fulfilment in tiie land of grace — and only in the Catholic church
is this verified. We eat the paschal lamb sprinkled with, or in other
words, veiled beneath the appearance of bread ; and every objection
urged against the real presence is equally strong, or weak against the
incarnation. Can this paste, says Mr. C. be God 1 I answer by an-
other question : can this informal embryo in a virgin's womb be God 1

We come now to Scotus. The gentleman says he heard or saw
him quoted by the Catholics. He says many people quote Zoroas-
ter and Confucius without knowing any thing about them. There is
no parallel between them. If a man quotes, as evidence, a writer,
like Scotus, he ought to know who he was. I do not blame him for
knowing nothing of Cliinese theology. But of Christian theology,
it is a shame for a man, who pretends to be, himself, a teacher in Isra-
el, and a polemic, who challenges Catholic bishops, to be so grossly
ignorant.

My friend says we bow to the pope. In England, Protestants bow
to the foot-stool of the throne. I bow to any friend I meet — I do not
pay him, nor the pope divine honor. We know the meaning of our
own bows, and words, and oaths, and would not pledge them insin-
cerely, much less blasphemously. No wonder that the pope let him-
self be persuaded to do good, in the case cited by my friend. Should
he have preferred a contrary course? Have done evil ?

Temporal power is inferior to spiritual power, as human power is
inferior to divine; just as heaven is superior to earth, in dignity and
value, and God superior to creatures, in every divine excellence, but
not in the sense that lie who has been invested with spiritual power
by God, has also been invested by him, in a kingdom which is not of
this world, with temporal power. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest
scholar of the 13lh century, and eminent scholar in the dark ages,
read his works, with those of a Kcmpis, for proofs of Catholic piety,
instead of garbled extracts from forgeries, and the works of apostates,
whom we discarded from our communion for immoralities, which no
Protestant communion would tolerate. They breathe the spirit of
devotion, the spirit of God.

My friends, Mr. Kinrnont will now tell you whether the pretended
quotation of Mr. Smith from Liguori, is correct. You will recollect
"hat Mr. Smith said, that, according to Liguori, the Catholic church

KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 319

allows priests to keep concubines upon a fine. Upon hearing this I
at once said that the charo^e was an infamous falsehood ; and I will
now show that Liguori said no such thing ; that Liguori says the con-
trary. If I tell a falsehood Mr. Kinniont will confound me ; if I
do not, somebody docs. Thus truth will triumph and falsehood be
confounded.

Mr. Kinmo.nt. I am called on in my professional character sim-
ply, and have no part or lot in this debate, (Mr. K. is understood to
be a Swedenborgian) I sincerely believe they are disputing about
shadows, and that both parties are equally in the wrong ; but I will
do what I can to assist in clearing up the difficulty of fact. I find
it stated in Samuel Smith's work and marked as a quotation from
Liguori under the article headed "concubines of clergy."

COXCL'H-Nts OK THK C'LEIKiV. — " A bishop liowever poor lie inn\ be, cannot
appropriate to iiiiiiself pecuniary lines without the license of the Apostolical
See. But he ought to appb' tliein to pious uses. Much less can he apply those
fints to any (hinj( else but pious uses, which the Council if Trent has laid upon
non-resident clerg-ynu n,or upon those clcrgynun ivho ktep concubines." — Ligor.
Ep. Dor.. iMor. p.'444.

And the following is Smith's commentary. —

How shamel'ul a thinj^, that the .Apostolical iiVe, as tlity call it, that is, that
the pope of Rome, should enrich his coders by the fines nliich he receives from
the profligacy of his Clergy! If thty keep coHCi;/)mfi, they must pay a fine
for it; but ii^ they marry, tliey must be excommunicated ! I'his accounts, at
once, for the custom in Sj)ain, and other countries, and especially on the island
of Cuba, and in South America; where almost every priest has concubines, who
are known by the name of nieces. These abandoned men are willing 'o P»y
the fine rather than forego the gratification of their lustful appetites. The
" iVarrativk of Rosa.Mond," who was once herself one ot these concu-
bines, in the island of Cuba, portrays the general licentiousness of the popish
rlergy, in colors so shocking, that the picture cannot be looked at without a
blush'. Here we see the doctrine fully exemplified by practice. This keeping
of concubines, is a thing 80 coininon in the popish West India islands, and in
South America, that it is rarely noticed. 'Ilie ollspring of this priestly inter-
course are numerous. They are known to be the children of the priests; but,
because it is the general custom, it is lavful; and it passfs o(f im rely with a
joke or sarcamn.

This is the text and commentary as I find it in Mr. Smith's book.
This is marked as Liguori, p. 114. If taken from Liguori at all, it is
taken from a different edition. The pres<>nl purjiorts to be a complete
copy of the works of liiguort. It hears no mark of being an e.xpur-
crated edition. It is said to be an edition of what was mid aiuimritlcn
befirr wilJi additiom. On turning to the place where he treats of fines
and punisliiiieiitK inflicted for eonrubinage, be says that priests guilty
of tbis offence, were, after two inelfertna! reprimands, to !)<> degraded
from their functions. He refers to the council of Trent, and states
what that council decreed. Smith throws us on Liguori, and liiguori
on the coiinejl of Trent. There is notiiing in Liguori relating to iliat
subject but this. The council wase;illed ;iI>ihM the year l.'il'i. 'I'iiis
edition of the decrees of th(! couneil was edited by the (•(iiiiicil itself.
I have had an abstract taken which I will read. It would take, some
time to read the original, and 1 have a translation made by one of my
scholars. I will rear! this.

" In the r»< ordd of the decrees of the roniicil of 'I'rcnt, Session 2.?th, chap.
14th, there i<i de^rrilxd the inclhod of proceading in the cnse.s of rlcirgy, who
are guilty of concubinage.

Alter shewing the nranrliil and enormity of this niii, rsperiidly in clergy, whom
integrity of life, should recommend and iuiprcss the precepts of religioa and of

320 DEBATE 0> THE

the church; the sacred synod forbids that any individual holding the clerical
office shall keep at his house or elsewhere, any inistress or unchaste wonian or
cohabit with any such, under the penalty of having enforced against him the
sacred canons, and erclpsiastical statutes regarding that matter. It is, then, espe-
cially enacted that if when admonished by their superiors they shall not desist
from all such unlawful and foi bidden acts, they sliall be deprived of the third
pari of all their revenues and ( crlesiastir al dues: and if still persevering in their
course, they shall not even heed a second admonition, they sliall be deprived of
alt their ecclesiastical revenue, and suspended from the administration of eccle-
biastical functions; and if, during this suspension, they shall continue obstinatb
<»nd incorrig-ible, they shall be <ieclared altogether unfit and incompetent to ex-
ercise any spiritual ollire whatever belonging to the church; unless after a clear
and unequivocal amendment of life, the church should think proper to with-
draw the disqualification, and allow them to resume their former station of
honor and trust. But if after the resumption of the duties of their office, they
should resort to those impure practices which they had abandoned, besides the
infliction of the above named penalties, an act of excommunication with its
sword of justice shall cut them oil", as dead branches from the body of the faith-
ful and church of the living God. And it is farther enacted that no appeal, or
exemption shall hinder the execution of any of these decrees, but that they shall
be summarily executed, at the will of the bishop, after he has ascertained the
existence ofthe enormities. A similar provision in its effects and spirit is made
•vith relation to bishops themselves, but the order of proceeding is ditl'erent.'"
This is in substance the provision of the deceee of the council of Trent. Sess.
25, cap. 14. [Time expired.]

SATURDAY, January 24th, Half-past 9 o'clock, A. M.

Mr. Campbell rises — ,,

Under any other circumstances than the present, I should have in-
sisted on being allowed the same number of minutes over my stipu-
lated hour, which my friend has taken with Mr. Kinmont's exposi-
tion, over his usual time.

Bishop Porcell. — I have no objection to Mr. Campbell's occupy-
ing that much more time. It is right that he should.

Mr. Campbell. I feel obliged to the gentleman for his courtesy,
and will therefore proceed. My friends, you will doubtless have ob-
served, that of all the extracts read from Ligori, found on the pages
of Smith, but one was challenged by the Bishop, on the ground that
it is not found in the page of St. Ligori in the edition now before us.
The case is simply this. According to the moral theology of the church
of Rome, marriage is a greater sin than concubinage: for, if a priest
marry, he is forthwith excommunicated ; but if lie keep a concubine
he only pays a fine. This is the statement that Mr. Smith makes :
and translates the passage in Ligori as follows:

" A bishop, liowever poor lie may be, cannot appropriate to himself pecuniary
fines without \\\?. license of the .Apostolical see. But he on^ht to apply them
to pious uses. .Much less can he apply those fines to any thing else but pious
uses, which the council of Trent has laid upon non-resident clergymen, or upon
ihos". clerer'i'nenwlio keep cowjihini's.'' I.ipor. F,p. Doc. Mor. p. 444.

Now, Bishop PuRCELL denies that there is such a passage in Ligo-
ri, or that there is in the council of Trent any such arrangement; and
in proof of it, he has brought us an edition of St. Ligori, and the de-
crees of the council of Trent. But the edition which he has produ-
ced, has not, upon the page referred to, tlie passage quoted. In the
passage quoted, the reference to Ligori is to a decree of Trent. But

E05IAX CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 321

there are always two ways of quoting a passage : the one verbatim ;
and the other, substantially. Whether Ligori quotes the decree of
Trent literally, or only quotes the substance, we cannot afErm. The
bishop referred this matter to Mr. Kinmont, without consulting me.
It was an exparte reference ; and therefore, comes not fairly before
us. Although I have no objection to Mr. Kinmont; but en the con-
trary, I think him very competent to decide a matter of this kind, if
he had time to examine all these volumes : and perhaps, had I been
consulted, I should have agreed in selecting him : yet as the refer-
ence is wholly one sided ; it can have no authority here. However,
so far as the decrees of Ttenl have been read, they do speak of fines
or forfeitures of those who have concubines, and these do substan-
tially sustain all that I have alleged.

I have this morning received a paper of Mr. Smith's, in which I
find an article '■'■ on the auUmrity nj Ligori," which I will now read.

" AI[)lio;i9us de Ligori was canonized by i'opc Pius VII. on the 15th of Sep-
tember, A. D. 1815, under the title of the Most Illustrious and Most Reverend
Lord Alphonsus de Ligorio. He has written the Modern Theology of the
church 01 Rome, in nine l.irge volumes, containing 4701 pages, which was pub-
lished at Mechlin, Stiperioruni Pcrmissu, A. D. 1828.

His Theology is called, in the preface of the work, "The Light." His doc-
trine after having been explored, was approved of by Pope Pius, VII. on the
18th May, 1803, after the Sacred Congregation of Rites had given it their sanc-
tim. «nd had declared that there was >oTHl>fi IN IT worthy oF CENSURE.
Ligori was spoken of bv the sacred Poalifl', Leo XII. in the highest terms; and
his eminence the Serf-ne Cardin il uf Cistile, the Major Penitentiary, in his letters
to the i3ishop of .Massiben, says, that Saint Ligori is not only an ornament to the
Episcopal character bv the illustrious splendor of his virtues; but he shines re-
splendent by his so'uM) DOCTRiNt, wliich )3 according to God. Doctrinani
•anclam.ac serunium Di um." (I'ref. Ivlitoris.)

In his preface to his Synopsis Mr. Smith observes :

" If they deny that we have given a fair translation, we will then rhalleng^e
them to come forward in a public assembly with the works of St. Ligori, when we
promise to meet them, and submit our translation, and the original, to the inspec-
tion of a committee, one half of whom to be chofen by ourselves, and the other
half by the Roman clergy. Truth never phuns investigntion. If we have not
given a fair, genuine, and true translation, and if we have not exhibited the doc-
trinei of Ligori, and the church of Rome fairly and correctly, without garbling,
or giving an erroneous construction, we will be willing to incur the consequenceu
that we oiKjIit t<) expect, for having deceived the public." Synop. IVef. p. 12.

I will thank the Bishop to inform me the date of his edition of the
works of rjgori.

Bkshop Purcell. — What is the date of Mr. Smith's edition 1

Mb. Campbem,.— 1H28.

Bishop PtrtrKi.i,. — This edition [pointing to hi.s own"] was also
published in 1828 : so that it appears both are the same.

Mn. ('ampbei.i. [here taking u|) a volnmt! of tiie Bishop's copy of
liigori read] " A'diVjo J\'<>ra Enirndatn." It hfiire appears that tiie
Bishop's is n fw.w amended edition ,- so that, probably, this and the
one used by Mr. Smith arc not tho same. Be this, iiowcvor as it may,
nothing is lost by the oxatiiinalion : nothing is proved against >ir.
Kmilh HH a translator, ami I shall write fortliwith to New ^'ork to Mr.
Smith for the original Latin of this passagi- in his edition, and have
it certified and published among this community.

But were it lawful to read in this assembly, I have before me the de-
crees of <ronncil.s, and the words of bishops and cardinals, trachJnff
the very dotlriru- which th«! Bishop would represent as a reproach
or calumny on liia cl«r^y and church. Here is the decree of a coui>-

S22 DEBATE ON TUB

cil at Toledo, and here are references to various councils, such as Bi-
vii Concilia, Tom. I. pp. 737, 739. Crabb. Concil. Tom. I. p. 449.
Edition of 1551, and Pithou Corp. .lu. Canon, p. 47, as quoted by Dr.
Brownlcc, wliich <ro to prohibit ])riests '■'■from keepins; more than one
concubine,''^ and declare marriage in a priest to be " a mortal sin."
And here is Costeriis and cardinal Campysrio who taught what I dare
not read here; but I will reserve all this for a more convenient season.

[Mr. Campbell here called for the reading again of the seventh
proposition, which being read by Mr. Piatt, one of the Moderators,
he proceeded.]

About the year 1088, Urban II. decrees:

" That subjects are by no authority conj-tiaiiied to pay the fidelity which they
have sworn to a chri'rtidn prince, who opposeth (Jod ana his saints, or violateth
tlieir precepts.' An instance whereof we have in his granting a privilcg;e to the
canons of Tours; 'which,' saith he, * if any enipei'or, kiu;^, prince, &c. kball
wilfully attempt to thwart, let him be deprived of the dignity of liis honor and
power." [Barrow, p. 22.

Again, the council of Toledo still more fully expresses the spirit
of the age.

" W'c tne holy council promulge this sentence or decree, pleasing to God, that
whosoever hereafter shall succeed to the kin°;dom, shall not mount the throne,
till he has sworn among other oaths, to permit no man to live in his kingdom,
u-ho is nof a Cntholic. And if after he has taken the reins of government, he
shall violate his promise, let him be anathema maranatha, in the sight of the
eternal Go.i, anci become fuel of eternal fire — pabulum ignis seterni. [Caranza,
p. 404.

Innocent III. (that true wonder of the world and changer of the
age) affirms :

" I'nder I'ope Inno;-f nt. III. it was ordained, that if any temporal lord, being
r quired and admonished by the church, should neglect to purge his territory
from heretical filth, he should by the metropolitan and the other comprovincial
bishops, be noosed in the band of excommunication ; and that if he should slight
to make satisTaction within a year, it should be signilied to the Pope, that he
might from that time denounce the subjects absolved from their fealty to hina,
and exp.ose the territory to be seized on by Catholics." Barrow, p. 22.

Adrian I. A. D. 772, thus decrees :

" We do by general decree constitute, that whatever king, or bishop, or po-
tentate, shall hereafter believe, or permit, that the censure of the Roman pon-
tiffs may be violated in any case, he shall be an execrable anathema, and shall be
guilty before God, as a betrayer of the Catholic faith." P. Had. I. Capit apud
Grat. Cans. xxv. qii. I. c. 11.

Leo IX. says, that Constantine M. " did think it very unbecoming
that they should be subject to an earthly empire, whom the Divine
Majesty had set over an heavenly." Of Gregory II. who lived
A. D. 730, Barronius says, " He effectually caused both the Romans
and Italians to recede from obedience to the emperor." " So," con-
tinues this authentic historian, — " he did leave to posterity a worthy
example that heretical princes should not be suffered to reign in the
church of Christ, if being warned they should be found pertinacious
in error." To consummate the whole, Gregory II. did say to the em-
peror Isauros : " All the kingdoms of the west did hold St. Peter as
an earthly God."

AVishing to crowd as much into this speech as I possibly can in
one hour, I .shall, with as much rapidity as is consistent with distinct-
ness of etiunciation, hasten through many documents. Thus we have
seen, that for at least five centuries, the heads of the Roman church
clearly and unambiguously taught, that tlie spiritual sword was above
the temporal, and that the vicar of Christ is by a divine right Lord

B02IAN CATnOLIC RELIGION. 323

of thrones and all earthly things. This, I have no douht, is the true
doctrine of the immutable and infallible church of Rome! and certain
it is, that it has never been disowned, or renounced, by a general
council, the organ of infallibility. If the church of Rome be insus-
ceptible of reformation, or infallible ; it is proved to be essentially
anti-American, and opposed to the genius of our institutions.

To resume the bishop's oath. The gentleman at length admitted
that lie had taken the bishop's oath, by saying, that he took the oath
of naturalizationyJrs/ .' .' There is but one oath for Roman bishops in
all countries, therefore, the Bishop is sworn to " increase and advance
the authority of the pope," and persecute and oppose (fight against)
heretics and schismatics. If he have not taken this oath, he will please
refer us to the oath he has sworn, and specify its peculiarities.

The defence is a very singular one. Hearst swore allegiance to
the United Stales, and then to that foreign prince the pope. Does he
mean, contrary to common usage, that the first oath is more binding
than the second ; or, that it neutralizes the anti-American attributes
of the second. But his explanation is but half given in the first point,
that he took the oath of American allegiance bifurehe took the oath
of Roman allegiance. The other ground of defence was in the
query, which, with such a triumphant air, he put to me yesterday
evening — viz. whether I would not have been justified in breaking
my oath to England, had I been an American colonist or soldier at
the time of the revolution, when the king tyrannized over the Ameri-
cans 1 I have already answered this question, and have affirmed that
in Protestant doctrine, no circumstance or contingency, can ever ab-
Bolvc a person from the obli<jation of an oath, into which he has in-
telligently and voluntarily entered. It is in the estimation of chris-
tians most impious and daring for any prince or pope to presume to
absolve men from the obligations of an oath solemnly taken. If, in-
deed, an oath has in it the nature of a covenant, then one of the
parties failing, so far vacates the covenant as to set the other free
from his oath : but this is not absolution for breaking it; it is a simple
annulling of its conditions. Now, in the case supposed, the king of
England was generally allowed to have receded from the conditions
on which that oath was taken by the persons who renounced alle-
giance to him ; lie having failed to protect and cherish his American
subjects, according to the, tenor of the charter given, they were freed
from the obligations of allegiance. But I beg my audience to re-
member that the bishop alleinpts to defend himself for breaking his
oath in certain contingencies: else, why ask me such a question?
The bishop's plea is, therefore, that oaths may be broktn, and that
the pope can absolve men from allegiance on a justifiable emergency,
when the church, or some other great interest may demand it ! Of
what use then is the oath of naturalization ? —

That the incompatibility of the bishop's oath with our oath of al-
legiance may be fibvious, I shall quote, the oath of naturalization, as
proposed to every foreigner by the laws of the United Slates:

Tlie la\v« of tlic U. S. |>r<>vide; 'I'liiil niiv iilii ii, Ik'Iiik n frci- wliilr person,
may be Rciniiltcd to become • ritizen of the L. S. or any ol ihiiii, on tlic lollow-
Ing; rondjtion, an'riiot oth«-rwiic; That he shall have tlcciarc-d on oalli, or ofTir-
tnation, before the iiuprenie lupcrior, ditlrici, or riniiit court, of loinc one of
(be Ktntr*, or a court o( record, having a clerk and teal — 3 )'cart at Ua«t bfifor*
■droiMioo.

824 DEBATE ON THB

Ht. Oitth of Intention.

"That it Tras borutjlde, Iiis intention to bfconie a ritizon of the U. S. and to
renounre forever, nil allcgiiiiue ami lidtlitv, to any forcii^n Prince, Potentate,
State or Sovereignty, whatsoever; and |jarliculiirl_v, by name, the Prince, Poten-
tate, State or Sovereionly, whtrei/f he may, at the time be n citizen or suliject.

That he shall, at the time of his application to be adniitted, declare, on oath
or artirniation, before a court as above.

2d. Oatii of Renitncialion , Atjurnlion , <S-c. nnd of Fidelity on Admission.

" That lie will support the coii^tilntion of tiic U. S. and that he doth absolutely
and entirely renounce and abjure ail alle<>iance and fuh lity to every foreign
Prince, Potentate, State or Sovereignty wliatevcr; and paiticniarly by name
the Prince, Potentate, State, Sovertignly whereof he was before a ciiizc-ii or
subject.

The court admitting; the alien to be satisfied that he has resided five years
within the U. S. one year in tlie state, and (liat he has behaved as a man of
good moral character, attached to the princi[)l>s of the constitution of the (J. S.
and well disposed to the goo<i order and happine-^s of the same. The residence
to be proved by a witness, not by oath of the applicant.

Where a person comiiisrinto the United States 3 years before 21 years of age*
proving same character, and continued residence 3 years, admitted as before
•taled on tiie first application, on taliing final oath ol abjuration, renunciation,
fidelity, &c. without the first oath of intention.

Further provided; That in case the alien applying to be admitted to citizen-
»hio, shall have borne any hereditary title, or been of any of the orders of No-
bility, in the kingdom or state from which became, he shall in addition to the
above requisites, make an express renunciation of liJs title or order o-f Nobility,
at the time to be recorded, i:c.

Further provided — That no alien who shall be a native citizen, denizen, or
subject of any country, state or soven ign, with whom the U. S. shall be at war at
the time of his application, shall be then adniitted to be a citizen of the U. S."
&c. &c.

Such are the oaths and laws of naturalization. Now, as the popo
of Rome is a foreign prince — at this very moment a prince temporal
as well as spiritual, exercising political authority over the states rf
Borne, and claiming allegiance in temporals as well as spirituals,
throughout the whole Roman Catholic world ; I ask, can any one
who has sworn "to increase and advance his r«//Ao?-//?/," or feeling
himself so bound, as he shall answer for it to the supreme judge of the
universe, take or keep the oath of citizenship in this country without
perjury ■?! In my most deliberate judgment, it is impossible.

'I'ho case is simply this : The oath of naturalization requires the
candidate for citizenship to swear that he does ahsolutety and entirely,
renounce all allegiance and fidclthj to every fureii^n prince, potentate,
$tate, or sovereignty. Now, the pope of Rome is a sovereign of Eu*
rope — TL foreign potentate, issuing bulls, laws, or briefs, throughout
the world : often to secure, augment and advance his authority, in
temporals, as well as spirituals ; as the testimony of 500 years now
before you, amply demonstrates ; and every Roman Catholic layman
feeling a paramount obligation to his bishop, and through him to the
pope ; and all the rulers of the Roman Catholic church, bein^ sworn
to the pope absolutely and forever, I ask, can such persons m good
faith solemnly swear allegiance to this government? If a person can
be sworn to support two antagonist constitutions, governments, powers,
— two masters, as opposite as the poles : then may he, without per-
jury, swear to our government, and to that of papal Rome !

But bishops are sworn " to persecute and oppose ( perxequar ct irri^
pugnabo) heretics and schismatics. Papal Rome is and always has
D »en, a persecuting government. She is essential ly so. I intend not
new to dwell much on l^.is theme. But I will sustain uiy proposition.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 325

And first, I admit that Protestants have persecuted, — that they have
persecuted even to death. I deny it not ; and therefore my opponent
need not prove it. It is a matter of record indisputable however,
that their persecutions have not been as a drop to the ocean, in compa-
rison of papal persecutions. Still they have persecuted, and we frank-
ly own it. But we have an excuse for them. The first Protestants
after the Lutheran Reformation, came out from a bloody and cruel
mother, who had accustomed them to blood and slaughter, and taught
them that the blood of heretics was a sacrifice, most acceptable to
God. They were taught that it was just to destroy thieves, rob-
bers, and murderers; and that heretics were the worst of thieves,
robbers, and murderers, and ought when incorrigible to be slain : for
so the good of society did imperiously demand. — As soon as they
got out of the great city, they began to contend among themselves,
whether persecution was right. They soon saw it was of the manners
and customs of Babylon; and that "all who take the sword must
perish by the sword ;" therefore they laid it down. They have ab-
jured it in their creeds and remonstrances against the papacy; and we
rejoice to state the fact, that there is not in Protestant Christendom
a single creed that does not repudiate persecution and assert the great
principle of christian and religious liberty.

But I have said that papal liome is essentially a persecuting power
— still a persecuting monarchy; because she has it yet written in her
infallible and immutable decrees of councils, in the bulls and ana-
themas of her popes ; and in the constitution of her inquisitions, which
as a church she still acknowledges and maintains. A few of her in-
fallible decrees must be accepted as a specimen.

" 111 the b.iU roiiiK'.il ol Toledo, Can. 3rd, tne holy lathers say, ' We (he holy
council promulge this sentence, or decree pleasing to God, That whosoever
hereafter shall succeed to the kingdom, shall not mount tlie throne till he has
sworn anionjf other oaths, to peniiil no man to live in his kin<^dom who is not a
Catholir. (Nullum non Cathulicuiii.) And ifafler he has taken the reins olgo-
vernment, hr; shall violate this promise, let him lie anathema inaranatha in the
• ght of the eternal Uod, and become fuel for the eternal fire, (Fubuluiu igni*
stlerni.) Caraiiza Sum. Conciliorum, p. 404.

The great Lateran council under Innocent III. who instituted the in-
quisition and transubstanlialion, ha.s Btill more expressly decreed :

" We cxroniniunicatc, and anathematize all heresy, condemning aJI heretici,
by what names soever they arc callcfl. « » • • •

rhcic bein^ condemned, must be left to the secular power to be punished.
And those who ore only suspected of hercy, if they purge not themselves in the
Appointed way, arc to be excommuiiicnted, and if witniii a year satisfaction is not
given, they are to be condemned as heretics.

Th< y mu»t take this oath. — "That they will endeavor, bona fide, and with nil
their might, to exterminate from evrry part of their dominions all heretical sub-
jects, unlveri.ally, that are marked out to them by thi' church. So that from
this lime forward, when anyone is promoted to any power temporal or spiritual,
he shall be oljli^'ed to confirm this. Hut if any temporal lord,l>eing rccpiired
and admonished by tin: church, shall neglect to purge his land from this here-
tical filthinew, he shall be tied up in the band of excommunication by the me-
tropolitan and his coiii[)roviricial bishops. And if he should neglect to make
satisfaction within a y«>ar, it should be sii^nified to the nope, that he miKht from
that time pronounce the subjects absolved from allegiance to him, and expose
his territories to be seized on by Catbolicf, who ex]>clliiig heretics, shall pos-
sess them without contradiction.

Uut Catholics, whj having taken the badge of tlie cross, shall set themselves
to extirpate heretics, shall enjoy the same indulgence and be fortified with th«
taiua privilege, a« is granted to those who go to th« racovcrjr of Ibc holy land."

326 DEBATE ON THE

Anci, to save time, be it emphatically observed, that the council of
Trent fully established, adopted, and re-promulged those decrees, and
they are, at this moment, in full force at Rome. Until, then, a general
council is called, and makes fallible the decisions of the great Lateran
council; such is, and must be the dictum and belief of the Roman
church; and, as I judge, there never will be another general council,
this will ever be the doctrine of papal Rome, till the day of her death.
Is this, I emphatically ask, the genius and spirit of republican
America ?

But edicts, canons, and decrees, are not a dead letter. They have
been all personified, and acted out to the letter. Who has not lieard
of that personification of every thing that is diabolically cruel — the
Hoi,Y Office of the Inquisition 1 What abuse of language ! Think
not, my friends, that I will rake up its ashes; that I will rehearse its
horrible racks, and engines, and instruments of torture ; that I will
describe a single auto da fc, one of the horrid tragedies of the acts of
faith, whose flagrance language fails to speak. " It wns the vice of
the age," my opponent has said. Of what age 1 Of Innocent III. ?
Of the era of transubstantiation 1 No, indeed ; but of the age of Na-
poleon ; of the age of pope Pius, the saint of 1814 ! Yes, of the pres-
ent age ! It was got up, indeed, by Innocent (inapposite name !) III.,
and was fully in operation in Italy, A. D. 1251. Its first officer, Do-
minic, was afterwards made a saint ! In Spain and Portugal it was
perfected ; and its reign of terror, in unfigurative truth, transcends all
description. My soul sickens at the thought. In Spain alone, from
1481 to 1814, about half a million suffered by it. Lorente (Paris
edit. tom. iv. p. 271,) sets down the victims of one department of tor-
ment, those burnt, at 33,912; and of other rigorous punishments, at
291,450. He is, by other historians, supposed to be far below the
full amount. From the records of the inquisition, the manuscripts
taken from the inquisitorial palace at Barcelona, when taken by siege
in 1828, one may reckon, that in all Spain, in a little over three centu-
ries, half a million suffered all manner of cruelties from this infernal
tribunal.

It was even employed as a means of converting the heathen, in pa-
gan lands. It is said, that 800 persons have been condemned at one
session, by one of its tribunals. And, still worse, in Seville, in the
year 1481, 2000 persons were condemned to the flames, and 20,000
more to inferior punishments. Such were the tender niercies of these
Roman gospel arguments to save men's souls from hell ! It was the
vice of a dark age, and yet restored by Pius VII. in 182G! ! What!

But, this is only one of the tribunals of persecution ; it was only
one of tiie means of persecuting and destroying heretics and schis-
matics. Shall I relate the persecutions of the Waldenses and Aibigen-
ses, and other Protestants, sometimes called Lollards, Wickliffites,
Hugonots, &c. feci Shall I tell of the millions in France, Spain,
Portugal, Holland, England, Ireland, and elsewhere] Shall I tell of
the massacre of St. Bartholomew's day? of the persecutions conse-
quent upon the revocation of the edict of Nantz 1 or the Irish massa-
cre'! and of all the other deeds of horror? I shall not attempt it. I
cannot describe the slaughter of two millions, in the early crusades
against Jews and infidels; nor of fifteen millions of Indians and pa-
gans ; nor of a millioQ Waldenses, murdered and banished in a single

KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 327

generation ! I say, again, 1 cannot relate these heart-stirring scenes ;
and I shall only say, that historians and mariyrologists variously give
the aggregate from ^//y to sixfy-eight mi//ions of human beings, that
have been sacrificed and devoured by this Moloch ; this insatiable de-
mon of persecution, as taught in theory and carried out in practice, by
her who calls herself Holy Mother ! ! ! What a scarlet, crimsoned,
cruel mother she is! On her will be avenged the blood of all martyrs.
Even the persecutions of those whom she taught to persecute, lie just-
ly chargeable against her. What guarantee, then, have we that this be-
ing the native spirit of the system, it would not again repeat the same
tragic scenes, in any country where it obtains an ascendancy] 'Tis
true, indeed, that the Protestant powers in Europe hold it now in
check. But, were these removed, from what premises would we in-
fer, that the same means would not be resorted to in this and every
Protestant country, so soon as this kind mother should feel it a duty,
" to extirpate heresy'''' out of the land 1 I

The doctrine is actually taught in her New Testament, in the notes
appended to the Rhemjsh version. I will give you a passage or two.

"And vvrien liis disciijles Jaiiits and John liad seen it, they said, l-oid wilt thou
we say that lire come down from heaven, and consume them? And turning, he
rebuked them, saying, you know not of wliat spirit you are." Luke ix.54, 55.

" V'er. 55. He rtbiik'ed Ittem. Ts'ot justice nor all rig;orous punishment of
sinners is h(re forbidden, Klias' fact reprehended, nor the cliuroh or chris-
tian princes blamed for putting heretics to death: but that none of these should
be done for desire of our particular revenge, or without discretion, and regard
to their amendment, and example to others. Therefore, Peter used his power
upon Ananias and Sapphira, when he struck them both down to death for dc-
ym'idiyi^ ihe churrh." Khein. N. Tf-t. p. 109.

This is a mistake. Peter struck not Ananias and Sapphira for dc-

{rauding the church, (as these purblind commentators say but the
ord himself struck them dead, for li/ing against the Holy Spirit.
Christian princes, thus, in reading the Roman Testament, are taught
to put heretics to death.

"An! iiiaiiy r,f them that liiul followed curious things, brought together their
books and burnt them before all; and counting the prices of them, they found the
money to be filly thousand pence." Acts xix. 19.

" Vcr. 19. Hooks. A christian man is bound to burn or deface all wicked books
of what sort soever, especially heretical books. VVhirh though they infect not
him always that keepelh them, vet bring forth coming, they ""^y be noisome
and peroH ions to other that shiill have them and rend them after his death, or
otherwise. Therefore hath the church taken order for condemning nil such
book', and agaiiiiit the reading of th<in where danger may ensue: and the chris-
tian emjieroi!-, f'onstantiiis, Magnus, Valenlinian, 'rheodosius, Marcian, Justin-
i:in, made penal laws for the burning or defacing them." lb. p. 207.

This f^roscription of hnrctical books is of the same spirit, a part of
the same system, and explains the march of papistical uniformity and

unity !

" .\" we havr said before, no now I s»y again, if any evangrlirr to you, beside
that which vou have receive*!, be he anathema." (Inl. i. 9.

" Hierome useth this place, wherein the upostle givetli the curse, or ana-
thema to all false teachers, not once, but twice, to provi- that the real o( Catholic
men ought to be so great toward all hrretics, and their doctrin* s, that they
should give them the anathema, though they were nevr r so dear unto them.
In which case, snith this holy Doctor, I would not spare mine own psrenlt." Iil.
p. 292.

Thi.H is stronger Still. " T wdim) not sivmik mink own I•AItI:^TH !"
This is llif! spirit, the naked spirit of the system, pure nnd unmixed.
Remember, then, my fricndfl, that children ou^hl to inform agaioHi

828 DEBATK O.N THE

their own parents, and brother against brother, for the extirpation of
heresy !

" Anil I saw the woman drunken of the blood of the Saints and of the blood
of the inartvrs of Jesus." Rev. xvii. 6.

Ver. 6. Driniken of the blood. It is plain, tliat this woman signifieth the
whole corps of all the persecutors that have and shall shed so much blood of
the just : of the prophets, apostles, and other martyrs, from the beginning of
the world to the end. The I'rot'stants possibly expound it of Rome, for that
they put heretics to death, anil allow of their punishment in other countries :
But their blood is not called the blood of saints, no more than the blood of
thieves, mankdlers, and other malefactois: for the shedding of which by order
of justice, no commomocaltJi slinll answer." Id. [). 430.

No commonwealth, consequently no member of it, shall suffer for
killing heretics. If I have not sustained this proposition, 1 can prove
nothing. If these facts and documents can be set aside by rhetorical
declamation, or reckless denial ; then are history, and testimony, and
fact, of no value in controversy.

Another specification comes under this proposition. I have too many
of them for the occasion. I must be brief. This is the divorcing, re-
pelling, disorganizing, and demoralizing dogma, that " no faith should
be kept with heretics.''^

Gregory VII., in a council at Rome, declares :

" We following the statutes of our preilecessors, do, by our apostolic author-
ity, absolve all those from their oath of fidelity, who are bound to excommvni-
cated persons, either by duty or oath; and we unloose them from every tie of
obedience, till the eNcomnmnicated persons have n)ade proper satisfaction."
Decret. 2 part. caus. 15. quest. 6.

Urban II. teaches the same doctrine :

" You are to discharge the soldiers who have sworn fidelity to count Hugo,
from paying any obedience while he is excommunicated : for they are not obliged
to keep that fidelity inviolate, which tt<'V have sworn to a christian prince, who
opposes God, and Ids saints, and desp.>i' s their precepts." Ibid.

Gregory IX. has laid down the general principle, with the greatest
care and precision :

"Be it known to all who are under the dominion of /lereiic*, that they are
get free from every tie ofjidtlilyand duty to them; all oaths or solemn agree-
ment to the contrary notwithslanding-." Decret. Greg. lib. 5, tit. 7.

Hear now the decree of the council of Constance, in the case of
John Huss, and Jerome of Prague ; who appeared there under the
solemn pledge of the imperial protection.

" Council of Constance, 1414, did solemnly decree that no faith is to be kept
with an heretic. The person who has given them the safe conduct to come
thither, shall not in this case be obliged to keep his promise by whatever tie he
may have been engaged, when h.e has done all that has been in his power to do."
Bruce. Free Thought, p. 120.

The council of Constance then, not only so decided ; but caused
those men, who appeared before them under an imperial pledge, to be
taken and burned. Thus faitli was not to be kept with heretics accord-
ing to said decree, and the practice under it by these " holy fathers V

To confirm the whole with the utmost brevity I would add, the ho-
ly, infallible, and last council of Trent formally recognized this de-
cree of the council of Constance. It is then the standing and unrepealed
doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, which must be as immutable
and infallible as the council of Trent,

Next we must notice the proscription of books as another specifi-
cation.

The council of Trent in its 25th session, decreed that a council
under the pope should draw up and publish an index of books which

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 329

Xvfere to be prohibited in the church. Thus commenced and keeping
pace with the introduction of liberal, or Protestant, or anti-Roman
Catholic volumes it has grown into a respectable volume ; so that
one of the finest libraries might be collected out of these proscribed
books. Among these is the bible, which is said to have been the
first prohibited in the council of Toloso. In the 4th of the 10 rules
concerning prohibited books established by the Holy Fathers of the
council of Trent, a license to read the bible is put into the control of
bishops and inquisitors. But he that presumes to " read without
such license cannot receive absolution of sins. '^ Amoug these prohib-
ited books also are those of Locke, Milton, Bacon, Grotius, Galileo,
Claude, Saurin, Sir Matthew Hale, Jeremy Taylor, Luther, Calvin,
Melapcthon, — and, indeed, all the standard Protestant authors.

Touching the liberty of the press, a decree of the 10th session of
the Lateran council A. D. 1215, even Leo X. presiding expresses the
Roman Catholic views of that chief root of the tree of liberty. The
decree of the Lateran council was sanctioned by Trent and is now the
orthodox faith of Rome.

" l}y oiclo)- ot" tlic holy couricil, we, in fine, ordain and decree, that no person
shall presume lo print, cr cause to be printed, an)|^ hook ov other writing whatso-
ever, either in our citv (lionit- ) or in any other cities and diocesfs, unless it. shall
first have been carffilly examined, if in this city, by out Vicar and tlie master of
the holy palace, or it" ui other cities and dioceses, by the bishop or his deputy,
with the inquisitor of heretical prnvilij for the diocese, in which the said impres-
sion is about to be made ; and unless also it shall have received, under their own
band, their written appro\al, jjiven without price and without dela)'. Whoso-
ever shall presume to do otherwise, besides the loss of the books, which shall
be publiciv burned, shall be bound by the sentence of excommunication."
Caranza, p. 670.

The council of Trent has also confirmed the doctrine of Leo X.
and his Lateran council of 1515. Their first rule concerning pro-
scribed books is : Jll books condemned hi/ the supreme pontiffs, or gen-
eral councils before the year 1515 and not comprised in the present index
are condemned." The creed of this said council of Trent moreover
compels every Roman Catholic "to receive undoubtedly, all thint^s
delivered, drjinrd, and dirland liij the sacred canons, and f^cneral councils
and partirularli/ hi/ llii- Holy council if Trent."

This church is as much opposed to the freedom of the press and
Free discussion, and the circulation of the bible, as ever she was; but
she has to yield n liltlr- id tiial irresistible innovator, called custom.
TStiJi however a Rfiman bishop canoot, as a good and liege suiijcct of
the pope, hut oppose, freedom of tlniiiirjit, speech and action in all
inatters reiigir)UH. liisten to tiie following little bull of tim bishop
of New York, published the other day against free discussion.

In <hi» do' urrieni liie t)iihop wrilt h, in hi» address lo the editor of the " Truth
TeHcr," — ^" Sir, 1 consider it n)y duty to reijuesl you to publish tlie following
copy <if my letter to the editor'of the " Catholic iViary," in order lo obviule ni
soon an piiKnitile, the misrhi'f \\\\\i:\\ »uch a Society, if rountenani:ed, niiglil pro-
duce. You know my oppoHilion t ^controversial disputes on religion, parlicular-
ly in dclmling Hoeii(ie!( or newspapers."

From the letter allu li^l to, we extract the following ;

"To the K'litiir of the Catholic Diary : —

In the Catholic Diary of SHlurdnv Inst. October 1, I find n notice from you, of
a Society, rnlliiig il«ell I'.ie New-York Calholir Soriety, for tin- pnimnlion of
religious knowledge. Of the •xistencr of that Soriety, I was utterly ignorant,
nnd feel surpri»i-d that you, wlm ought to know betl< r, »vould think of encour-
•ciiig and drawing public attention to such a socieiy, without firi>t nscrrlaininp
the sentiments of your Ordinary on so important a aubjecl. The Church w«cly

2 c 2 -n

330 DEBATK ON THE

ordains that nothing; of thn nature of this society can bo rstublishcd wilhoat (Ii«
approbation of the Bishop of the Diocese, whcir it is inonnt to introduce it, and
that permitted, it should be governed hy such ruhsniid regulations as to bininiar
seem proper, for it obviously partaki s of the nature of a Theological school.
Far be it troni nie to impede the progress of religious knowledge ; nothing could
be more dear to my heart than to encourage whatever contributes eflectually to
its promotion ; but j)laced as 1 am, as a sentinel over the sacred ark of religion,
It is my imperative thify to prevent it from being touched by profane or unprac-
tised haruls.

So far from viewing this society in the light you see it, it is my decided con-
viction that it ought not to be sanctioned by me ; how c;ui it be supposed that
young men, whose education is chiefly mercantile or mechanical, can come with
sufficient preparation to the discuss-ion of a question that re(iuires vast erudition,
with a degree of research, which they cannot possess ; you cannot be ignorant
of the severe mental discipline to which students are subjected in our Theologi-
cal Seminaries, before they are allowed to commence the study of theology.
You knovv also that this study is regulated by experienced and able professors,
that young men are not allowed to grope their way with only their own feeble
light, tiirough the dark mazes of deceitful cavil, and infidel sophistry.

The members of this society, who thirst so much for religious knowledge, can
read our elementary works, and also, the masterly productions of JVlilner, I'letch-
er, Bossuet's history of the Variations, lately printed, and others, where they
are sure to find the tenets of our faith explained with a precision and elegance
that cannot fail to satisfy the sincere inquirer after truth. The precision of
ideas," and elegance of expression in the imparting of religious knowledge, their
preamble sets forth to be the main objects of this society, and it covers tne desire
and intention of acquiring that species of tact and dexterity in theological de-
bate, which would enable them to follow into the arena the fanatics of the
day. All this I must condemn as well as a jiublication of the crude essays of
tyros anion^ us. Let us dispute less and practice more.

The church in the most positive manner prohibits all laymen from entering
into dispute on points of religion with sectarians, " inhibeinus,"' says Pope Alex-
ander IV., "neunquam Laicae Personie liceat publice vel private de fide Catholi-
ca disputare ; qui vere contradicerit, Excomniuiiicationis laqueo innodetur."*
Had you recollected this sentence, I am sure you would be far from calling on
the Catholic young men of this city to beconu' members of a debating society
on religious subjects, open to so many serious objections.

" t .J<Jim, Bishop of New- York."

After having read you a bishop^s bull against " The New York
Catholic society for the promotion of religious knowledge," I will,
while on this subject, read you also a bishnj/s curse against a refrac-
tory priest in Philadelphia. I quote it from one of the News-papers
of that day. It happened some twelve or fifteen years ago. 1 have
several such cases in the books around me : but they are some two or
three centuries old, and in foreign countries ; and therefore, I select this
modern one which is almost a copy of them, because a little acclimated.

[P'rom (I Phitadelplna Paper.] We have at length obtained a correct cony
of the excommunicHtio'ii of William Hogan, Pastor of St. Mary's Church, of tnia
city. It is as follows:

By the authority of God Almighty, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and the
undefiled Virgin iVlarv, mother and ])atrones8 of our Savior, and of all celes-
tial virtues, Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominions, Powers, Cherubims and
Serapliims; and of all the Holy Patriarchs, Prophets, and of all the Apostles and
Evangelists of the Holy Innocents, who, in the sight of the Holy Lamb are
found worthy to sing the new song of the Holy Martyrs and Holy Confessors,
and of all the Holy Virgins, and of all Saints, together with the Holy Elect of
God — may he, William Hogan, be damned.

W^e excommunicate and anathematize him, and from the threshold of the Holy
Church of God Almighty, we sequester him, that he may be tormented, disposed

•The English of which £«W is :—" The Church prohibits Inytncn, cither publicly or
privately, from arguing on subjects npportaiiiing to the Catholic tailh, and whosoever aball
violate ihia prohibition, let him be bound with the cord of ^Excommunication."

RO>IAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 331

and be delivered over with Athan and Abiranx, and with those who say unto the
Lord, " depart from us for we desire none of thj wa^'s ;'" as a fire is quenched with
water, so let the light of him be put out forevermore, unless it shall repent him,
aad make satisfaction. Amen!

May the Father, who created man, curse him! May the Son, who suftered for
us, curse him! May the Holy Ghost, who suffered for us in baptism, curse him!
May the Holy Cross which Christ for our salvation, triumphing over his enemies,
ascended, curse him!

May the Holy and Eternal \"irgiii Mary, mother of God, curse him ! May St. Mi-
chael,' the Advocate of the Holy Souls, curse him. May all the angels, principali-
ties, and powers, and all heavenly armies, curse him!

May the praiseworthy multitude of Patriarchs, and Prophets, curse him!
May St. John the Precursor, and St. John the Baptist, and St. Peter, and St.
Paul, and St. Andrew, and all other of Christ's Apostles together, curse him ! and
may the rest of our Disciples and Evangelists, who by their preaching converted
the universe, and the holy and wonderful company of Martyrs ana Confessor,
who by their holy works are found pleasing to God Almighty. May the holy
choir of the Holy Virgins, who for the honor of Christ have despised the things
of the world, damn him I May all the saints from the beginning of the world
to everlasting ages, who are found to be beloved of God, damn him!

May he be damned wherever he be, whether in the house or in the stable, the
garden or the field, or the highways; or in the woods, or in the waters, or in the
church; may he be cursed in living and in dying!

May he be cursed in eating and in drinking, in being hungry, in being thirsty,
in fasting, in sleeping, in slumbering, and in sitting, in livmg, in working, id
resting and blood letting!

May he be cursed in all the faculties of his body .

May he be cursed inwanllv and outwardly; may he be cursed in his brains
and in his vertex, in his tcmijles, in his eye-brows, in his cheeks, in his jaw bones,
in his nostrils, in his teeth aud grinders, In his lips, in his throat, in his shoulders,
in his arms, in his fingers.

May he be damned in his mouth, in his breasts, in his heart and purtenance,
down to the very stomach !

May he be cursed in his reins and in bis groins; in his thighs, in his genitals
and in his hips, and his knees, his leg^ and feet, and toe nails!

May he be cursed in all his joints, and articulation of the members; from the
crown of his head to the sole of his feet, may there be no soundness.

May the Son of the living God, with all the glory of his luaj^esty, curse him!
And may heaven with all the powers that move therein, rise up against him and
curse and damn him; unless he repent and make satisfaction!
Jtmtn. So be it. fie it so. .■Irnen.

Ridiculous as this may appear — lauprhable or profane ; it is never-
theless, but the echo of otic of the oni- hundred aualhemas com-
manded in the council of Trent — one of the greater excoiunuinications
due to an obstinate heretic.

As still more indicative of tht; present views and feelings of the
Roman see, on the subject of civil and relijjious liberty, I shall give
you a few more extracts. I had laid olT several niodern documents
of much point, and bearing on ibis proposition; but unfortunately,
they were misplaced in my library, and I find them missing among the
books I have brought with me. I liold in my hand, however, a little
work in which I find some of them. This little v<<liiiiie containing
" Dr. Heecjicr's Pica for tlu^ West," ought to be in every family, and
read by every adult in tlw great valley, who feels any interest in the
preservation of our free- and hap])y institutions. I wish I had time to
read much of it. I can only read a few passages of the documentary
data which it contains :

I am about to read from firegory XVI. the present successor of I'c-
tcr, under daU: of lft.12, the prescnl faith of Hr)man Catholics on tlie
subject of conscience, and liberty «if the press.

"Kroni thi« (lollutcd fountani of indifference, llowi that absurd and erroneous

33'2 DERATE ON THE

doctrine, or rather raving;, in favor and ilefoncc of' liberty of conscience,' for
nliich MTOst pestilential error, tlio course is opened for tliat entire and wild lib-
erty of opinion, which is every where atteniplin^ the overthrow of religious and
civil institutions; and which the unblushiiij;- impudence of some has held forth
as an advantage to religion. Hence llial pisl, (if all others most to he dreaded
in a stale, itiibridleJ lihei-ly of opinion, WrMuUou^ness of speech, and lust of no-
velty, which, according to tlie experience of all ages, portend the downfall of
the most powerful ami llourisliiiig <inpircs. " Hither tends that worst and ne-
ver suthcuntly to be execrated and detested Ulil.llTY of THE I'llKSS for the dif-
fusion of all manner of writings, which some so loiully contend lor, and so ac-
tively proiiiotf'." p. 121.

This so fresh from Rome, stamped with the seal of infallibility,
•without another word, sustains that specification in my proposition
relating to the anti-American spirit and genius of the grand elements
of popery.

But continues he on the aubjoct of unlicensed books :

"Ao means must bt" here oiiiitl(cl, says t7i;;nt'n/ XHl., our predecessor of
happy memory, in the l'2nc> clical Letter on the proscription of bad books — 'no
means must be here omitted,' as tiie extremity of the case calls for all our exer-
tions, to exterminnle the fnlitl pcsf which spreads througli so many works; nor
can the materials of error be otherivise destroyed than by the flames, which con-
sume the depraved eh incuts of the e\il."

The secretary of the court of Vienna and counsellor of legation — I
mean Frederick Schlcgel, who, in 1828, lectured on the philosophy
of history in favor of monarchy and popery — one supreme bishop, and
one supreme monarch — who was one of the Ausl^rian cabinet, Ike con-
fidential counsellur of Prince Melternich — whose policy and opinions
opened the way for Austrian efforts on the foundation of St. Leopold,
to add America to the pope's dominions — I say, of this great man and
his opinions, the author of a foreign conspiracy, as quoted by Doctor
Beecher, thus speaks :

"In the year 1828 the ceiebnitcd f'rederick .S(hlegel, one of the most dis-
tingiiishtd literary men oflMiro|)e, delivered lectures at Vienna, on the philoso-
phy of history, (which have not been translated into Knglish) a great object of
which is to show themntval support tehich popery and monarcliy derive from
each other. He commends the two .systems in connexion as deserving of uni-
versal reception. He attempts to prove that the sciences, and arts, and all the
pursuits of man, as an intellectual being, are best promoted under this perfect
system of church and state: a pope at the head of the former; an emperor at the
head of the latter. He contrasts with this, the system of Protestantism; repre-
sents Protestantism as the enemy of good government, as the ally of republican-
ism, as the parent of the distresses of Europe, as the cause of all the disorders
with which legitimate governments are afflicted. In the close of lecture 17th,
Vol. H. p. 286, he thus speaks of this country: The TRUE NURSERV of all
these destructive principles, the revolutionary sclioolfor France and the rest of
Europe, has been JVorlh America. Thence the evil has spread over many other
lanils, either by ruilural contagion, or by arbitrary communication. lb. p. 122,
12.3.

Such are the popular views of our institutions in the best and purest
church district in the world : and the emigrants of that country with
those opinions are daily crowding to our shores, and filling up this
immense valley. These are they who are taught to execrate the lib-
erty of the press, and to consider liberty of conscience pestilential er-
ror, and that a spiritual monarch, and a political emperor are the very
paragon of all e.vcellence in church and state. Is this compatible with
the genius of our institutions? Are not such views and reasonings,
posilivelij subversive ff them?

Let nie observe from that book of Fessenden's of which my oppo-
nent seemed to know so much yesterday : but the author of which he

H05IAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOIT. 333

cannot now name, as I believe, (if he can, however, he may tell us
something about him) — I say from the Encyclopedia of Religious
Knowledge, and from some other documents before me, I would wish
to read a few statements, to show that this said Roman Catholic In-
stitution, chameleon like, first acconunodates itself to the customs of
every country, and seems to inhale and exhale the popular atmosphere
until it reaches its end ; (for well the Jesuit knov.s the means may be
infinitely various, while the end is one and immutable,) and so soon as
it gains the fulcrum of popular opinion and the lever of the majority,
it builds up an empire, after the model of the Prince Metternich. This
has hitherto been its history, in every climate, and country, and age.
A single example of this policy, taken from the Encyclopedia, must
suffice :

" Various attctnpts have been made to biiiig- this church under the papal yoke;
but without success. Tlie Portuguese liaviiig opened a passage into Abyssinia in
the fifteenth century, an emissary was sent to exttnci t'le influence and authority
of the Roman pontifl", clothed with the title of patriarch of the Abyssinians. The
same important connuissiou was afterwards given to several Jesuits, when some
circumstances seemed to promise fluin a successful and happy ministry; but the
Ab^'sslnians stood so firm to the faith of their ancestors, that towards the close of
the sixteenth century the Jesuits had lost nearly all hope in that quarter.

About the beginning of the seventeenth century the Portuguese lesuits renew-
ed the mission to Abyssinia, when the emperor created one of them patiiarch;
and not only swore allegiance to the Roman pontil), but also obliged his subjects
to forsake the rites and tenets of their ancestors, and to embrace the doctrine and
worship of the Romish church. At length the emperor became so exasperated
at the arrogant and violent proceedings of the patriarch in subverting the es-
tablished customs of the empire, for the purpose of confirnn'ng the pope's au-
thority, especially in imposing celibacy on some, and requiring divorce of others,
who had married more than one wife, that he annulled the orders formerly given
in favor of popery, baniihed the missionaries out of his dominions, and treated
with the utmost severity all who had any connexion with tlic undertaking. From
this period the very name of Rome, its religion, and its pontitl, have all along
been objects of peculiar aversion among the Abyssinians." — Encyc. Relig.
Knowl. p. 22.

Thus have the Jesuits done in every country, and this will they do
— first ingratiate themselves with the peoph;, and wlien they think
thr'y are secure of their object, they will jirocc^ed to subvert the gov-
ernment : for they are sworn and sold to tlie pop(! forever.

The gentleman says, We are both foreigners ; indicating that we
have equal rights and privileges. I did not use that term in an invi-
dious sense, when speaking of my willingness to receive foreignt^ra.
Nor do I oppose the princi|iles of my opponent, because of their hos-
tility to Protestants only : hut becaiis(! of thi-ir hostility to Roman
Catholics. It is from my views of the political and religious hear-
ings, the ttwriporal and the eternal conscfjuences of the system, that I
expose and oppose it. As a philanlhrojijsl, I am o|)poser! to the |)apal
empire;, whether at home or abroad — in lOurope or America.

But aiihoiiifli {lolilieally considered, in (>u>: sense, we both may be
calle<l foreigners ; yet, we are not foreigners in tin; same sense. I
claim a very intimate relation with the Protestant family. I am one
of that family. It was then my family, that first seilled this country.
The bishop's family settled Roman Catholic America. He is ;rfor-
eitrner here, as I would be a' foreigner in .Mexico or South America. I
belong to the [)erseculed — he to thn persecutors of that family.

In the next phce, I never took but one oath of allctriance. I lu^ver
vowed to support but one political constitution. My opponcul first

334 DEBATK ON THE

Bwore to America and then to Rome. He is bound to a foreign prince:
I am not. If that prince slioiild reward liim for any service with a
Cardinal's cap, he mifjht be commanded away to Rome next week.

Bishop Purcell. No, 1 will not leave this country.

Mr. Campbell. The gentleman is under the " Holy Lord the
pope." I am not a foreigner in this sense.

But still better, I am the father of a family : my children are native
Americans : and through these I am more a kin to the great Ameri-
can family than he ever can be. Without perjury or apostacy from
his office, he can never have a wife, nor family. He is a stranger to
those near and holy relations. He has no country — no home. He
lives and he must die under the command of foreign superiors; and
they may, by authority or promotion, remove him to Europe or Asia at
pleasure. For these and other reasons I am identified with Protestant
America, and claim a relation here to which his heart shall ever be a
stranger. — [Time expired.]

Half past 1 oVlock, Jl. M.
Bishop Purcell rises —

Another instance of the unfairness with which Catholic principles
are represented : another occasion for a holy triumph !

That Rhemish Testament, from which the gentleman has just now
read, was never sanctioi»ed by the Catholic church. It was published
by a caucus of parsons in New York, (whose names are prefixed to it,)
for the express purpose of vilifying^ the faith, and outraging the feel-
ings of Catholics ! And this is called a Catholic bible ! Good God !
whither has justice fled 1 Archbishop Murray, of Dublin, has lately,
in the most solemn manner, condemned these notes. They are not to
be found in the Catholic bible, used in this or in any other country. I
am laboring to inspire my opponent with sentiments of self-respect;
and assure him anew, that " evil communicaiinn corrupts good man-
ners.^^ The occasion called for original documents, candid statements,
and reputable authorities ; but, instead of these, the public are mocked
by my friend with spurious, garbled extracts, which a dignified con-
troversialist would have treated with contempt. We repudiate the
notes, which Protestants have appended, /or us, to this bible.

Mr. Campbell. — Produce another.

Bishop Pubcell. — I will. Behold it. Here is the bible to be
found in every book-store, where Catholic works are for sale. Here
is Luke, chap. ix. 55 ! Not a word of it there! (Holds it opened,
towards the audience, and towards Mr. Campbell.)

You perceive, that I have granted my opponent, all the extra time
he chose to occupy, to explain away, if he could, the mis-translation
(to call it by the very mildest name) of Liguori ; and he has just left
it where he found it, in the mire of infamy ! The edition which I ex-
hibit, was published in the very year and the very place with the edi-
tion, from which Mr. Smith pretends to have quoted. You have
heard Mr. Kinmont.

The gentleman has cited the words of Christ, " Do this in commem-
oration of me," against the real presence. This is all I wanted, to
complete my argument. Here is the answer :

" After having proposed the sentiments of the church upon these ■words," this is
my body," we must tell what she thinks of these others, which Christ added : "io
this in memory of me." It is clear that the intention of the Son of God is to

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION, 335

oblige us by these words to reuieinber the death whicli he suffered for our sakes:
and St. Paul concludes, from these same words, that we aniiouui'e, in this nivste-
ry, the death of the Lord. But it must not be imagined that this remembrance
of his death, excludes the real presence of his body; on the contrary, by only
considering what has been just now explained, it will fully a|)])ear that this com-
memoration is founded upon the real presence. For astiie Jews, in eating their
peace oflerings, remembered that thev had been sacrificed for them, so we, \a
eating the Hesh of Jesus Christ, our victim, should remember that he had been
iiiirnolated for us. It is therefore this same flesh eaten by the faithful, which not
only awakes in us the memory of his inuDnlation, but which confirms to us the
truth of it. And far from being able' to say that this solemn commemoration
which Jesus Christ orders us to make, excludes the presence of the fltsh, it is
visible, on the contrary, that this tender recollection, which he wills we should ■
have ol him, in the holy communion, as immolated for us, is founded upon the
real receiving of this same fl<sh ; it being surely impossible to I'orget, that it is for
us he hath given his body in sacrilicc, when we see that he gives us still every
day this victim fjr our food."

I now come to the subject of puroratory, which my friend calls the
lever of the pope, to raise liie world. I should be g^lad to see the
pope raist the world in any way. If he has not the power to raise
mortals to the skies, he, at least, wants the will to pull men or angels
down. The doctrine of purgatory can be proved by a few plain texts.
The first is from '2d Machabees, xii. 42; where we read, that the val-
iant Machabeus sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem,
for sacrifice, to be offered for the souls of the dead. " It is, ihvrefore,
sayt Ihe scripture, a hiiiy nnd a whulesmne thought to pray for the dead,
thai they tnay be Iwmedfrom their ginn."

My friend will say, the book of Machabees is not canonical. But,
is it not, as Du Pin would say, very ill done of him, to reject a hook
of scrij)ture, because it pinches him. This is a fine way of confuting
Catholics: to mutilate the scripture when it favors our doctrine; to
believe our enemies, when they misrepresent it; and to attribute to,
and force upon us, doctrines which we do not profess.

The books of the Machabees arc to be found in the Codex Alexan-
drinus, and in all the approved bibles of (he Catholic church, from the
beginning. Why tear them, at this late day, from the canon? Be-
sidcB, they are, at least, authentic history, and, as such, faithful rec-
ords of the belief of the only people who, at the tin)e when they were
written, professed the triu^ faith.

JesuB Christ says, that there is a blasphemy against the Spirit;
which is a sin that will not he forgiven, neither in this world, nor in
that which is to come. (Matt. xii. 22.) These words clearly imply
that some sins ivill be forgiven in the world to come. Where ? Not
in heaven, which " nothing defiled can enter;" not in hell, for out of
hell. there is no redem|)tion. What is that place, called .'ll>riihiiin^s
bosom, on which lia/arus reposed, until hr^aven was opened to the
souls of men, by the death of Jesus Christ? Was it heaven, or hell,
or that intermediaU; place or stale, which Catholics call by the name
of purgatory T It is tnccfisarily the latter: apart from the suflering of
sense by purifying fire, it wrjujd \h; a stale i\\' mmtil or s|>iritnal suf-
fering : as it was one of separation from (Jod, whose beauty the soul,
released from the prison of the body, and tin- darkness of sin and ig-
norance, 80 clearly discernK, and so ardently desires to etijoy. The
Savior tells us to be reconciled (juickly with our adversary, while wo
are in the way : lest we be delivered over to the judge, and cast into
prison, whence we shall not be released, until wc shall have paid the

836 DEBATE OX Till!

last farthing. (Matt. v. 26.) What prison is this] What place of

sorrowful detention on Ihc way to hcavcn/ij ghri/? Neither heaven,

nor the abode of everlasting torments: conscquentlj', purgatory.

" C/irinl (lied for our sins" says .St. Peter, (Isl Kpist. iii. 18,) " 6e-

ing put to death in the Jltsfi, but enlivened in the spirit : in which also

coming, he preached to tho.tc spirits that were in prison." This is the

J lace, of which it is said, in the apostles' creed, "//c rfcsce/irfec/ en/o
t//;" which was surely not the hell of the damned, but that tempo-
rary hell, or hades, or purgatory, to whose inmates he announced the
joyful tidings of their deliverance, where the first and the second
Adam met, the type and reality. What is the meaning of the univer-
sally prevalent practice, of which St. Paul speaks, of performinor
pious works, called baptisms for the dead : " E/se ivhat shall they do
who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at (ill. IVhy are they
then baptized for them ?" (1st Cor. xv. 23.)

" Hence, the council of Trent teaches: " That there is a purgatory, and that
the souls detained there, are helped b_\ the prayers of the faithful, and particu-
larly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar."

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, l^usebius, St. Jlpiphanius, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome. St.
Augustine, and several othii- ancient fatliers antl writers, demonstrate, ttiat the
doctrine of the church was always, and is now the same, as that which was de-
fined by the council of Trent, witli respect both to prayers for the dead, and an
intermediate state, which we call purgatory. How express is the authority of
tlie last named father, where he says: " through the prayers and sacrifices ottbe
church and alms-deeds, God deals more mercifully with the departed than their
sins deserve." Serni. 172. Enchirid. cap. 109, 110.

St. Chrysostom, who flourished within three hundred years of the age of the
apostles, and nmst be admitted as an unexceptionable witness of their doctrine
and practice, writes as follows: "It was not without good reason ordained by
ttie apostles, that mention should be made of tlie dead in the tremendous mys-
teries, because they knew well that these would receive great benefit from it."
In Cap. i. Philip. Hom. 3. Tertullian, who lived in the age next to that of the
apostles, speaking of a pious widow, says: " She prays for the soul of her hus-
band, and begs refreshment for him." L. De Monogam. c. 10. St. Cyprian,
who lived in the following age. says: " It is one thing to be waiting for pardon;
another to attain to glory: one thing to be sent to prison, not to go from thence
till the last farthing is paid ; another to receive immediately the reward of faith
and virtue: one thing to suffer lengthened torments for sin, and to be chastised
and purified for a long time in that fire; another to have cleansed away all sin
by suffering." S. Cypr. L. 4. Ep. 2.

The doctrine of the oriental churches agrees with that oi the Catholic church,
in the only two points defined by her, namely, as to there being a middle state,
which we call purgatory, and as to the souls, detained in it, being helped by the
prayers of the living faithful. True it is, they do not generally believe, that
these souls are punished by a material fire; but neither does the Catholic church
require a belief of this opinion. On some occasions, Luther admits of purgatory,
as an article founded on scripture. Melanctlion confesses that the ancients pray-
ed for the dead, and says that the Lutherans do not find fault with it. Calvin
intimates, that the souls of all the just are detained in Abraham's bosom until the
day of judgment. In the first liturgy of the: church of England, there is an ex-
press prayer for the departed, that "tiod would grant them mercy and everlast-
ing peace." Collier's Eccl. Hist. Vol. II. p. 257.

Bishops Andrews, Usher, Montague, Taylor, Eorbes, Sheldon, Barrow of St.
Asaph's, and Hlandford, all believed that ttie dead ought to be prayed for. To
these, I may add, the religious Dr. Johnson, whose published Meditations prove,
that he constantly prayed for his deceased wife."
The Universalists make hell a purgatory.

The notion, that this doctrine fills the pope's coffers with gold, is
too ridiculous to be refuted! Every Catholic knows its absurdity.
As to the inlenlioa of the priest, about which the gentleman has found

B03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 337

SO much to say, that is no difficulty. How do we judge of the inten-
tion ] Simply, by the act, the surest evidence of its existence. Can
we ask if a man has any intontion to eat his dinner, when we see him,
sit down to table, take his knife and fork, use them, and eat till he is
filled ; so when we see the priest docs what every priest does, and
the faithful people know that he ougiit to do, we have the best evi-
dence of his intention. Besides, what motive could he have for such
a jrratuitous violation of the law of God and profanation of a sacra-
ment. JS'emo rcpente pcssimus is an old and a true maxim. He would
fall into other excesses, first, and be suspended — God will not aban-
don his church ; and the sincere christian will always be rewarded by
him, accordinjT to iiis deserts. No man goes suddenly, &c. see Secreta
Monita. It was placed invidiously among the rubbish by the enemies
of the Jesuits, if found amid the ruins of their house, as the whole
society repudiated it.

Every learned and sound critic, who is at all honorable, denounces
the imposition — It is an old trick.

Ovid in his 13th book, verse 59, 60, suggests the idea, in speak-
ing of Ulysses' treachery, when he first had gold hid in the tent of
Palamedes and then denounced him for having been bribed by the
enemies of Greece.

•' Fictutnque probavit
" Criin. ;i, ( t oslcn lit (jU )cl )a;ii pr.rfoderat aiirutn."

Shall I invent calumnies, when run out of proof of any man's dishon-
esty? God forbid ! ^\ hat virtuous and immaculate family may not be
thus assailed ? And the more virtuous and honorable they are, the
more will they be disconcerted and overwhelmed, for the moment;
but the more complete will be their own vindication and their slander-
ers' disgrace in the end.

The gentleman caimot get over what he said of Washington and
our Hevolulionary heroes, " \.\\k fatal shaft is sticking in his side."

God has given to the people, neither too much, nor too little power.
He has given them no spiritual authority ; for as Jesus Christ said to
his apostles, so may the priest say to his flock : " You have not cho-
sen me." " No one durst assume the office of priest, but he that is call-
ed to it, a.1 Jirtrnti ir«,i" — and he was not called by the people. In
the Catholic church we solemnly appeal to the people for testimony
for, or against, a candidate for holy orders. God has given the peo-
ple reiuonabln |)ower, in teinpfiral matters, and revolutions have too
often shown tlnir evils and calaniilies, in the most horrid and brutal
excesses and the loss of innumerable lives. This is an awful penalty
for the rash exercise of tem|)oral j)ower on the part of the people. Our
own revolution was, perhaps, the calmest, the most temperate, the
least abused for evil purposes by wicked man, because we had a
"Washiniiton and kindred spirits to direct the 8tf)rm. 'I'hese, my wor-
thy friend rails perjurers ! Ah (Jod has restricted the people, he haa
also restricted their rulers, in their exercise of power. How many
terribli; lessons have not kings been taught, for its abuse. Why can-
not nations unite to select a common umpire; to whom all disputes
should l(c; referred, atid thus the rrimes of kings, and revolution,
with all its arcompanying horrors, by the peiiple, extinguished in the
bud.

I do not undertake to deft nd the popes in their use of the deposing
power — and were my voice, at this moment, ringing in tho Vatican,
2D 4J

333 DEB ATE 0.^ TJIK

instead of the Baptist church, Sycamore street, Cincimiati, 1 should
not be reproved. There are in the religious, as well as in the spiri-
tual world, two forces, liie centripetal, and the cenlrifiif;al. The see
of Rome i%as the sun and centre of the system, to which all the pla-
nets, revolving in beauteous harmony, tend. We bless, we love, we seek
with ardor, by a kind of religious instinct, strong as the laws of gravita-
tion, this common centre, which gives us all, our proper impetus and
coherency. But like the planets, we arc not absorbed by it. We
know its excellence, its usefulness, its destination, its limits.

Now, to show you what our sentiments are, with regard to the tem-
poral power of the pope, here is a standard work, the identical text-
book of theology, which I studied in Paris many years ago. The au-
thor is still living, and instead of being rebuked for what I am going
to say, he has, on the contrary, been made bishop of Mans, in France.
Mis name is Bouvier, and he is as j)ious a christian as he is a sound
divine. I read you evidence from scripture, tradition and reason, in
favor of the doctrine which is the burden of the proposition, viz. that
♦» the pope has no right, direct, or indirect, by any divine commission,
to the temporalities of kings or other Christians." When was the
deposing power first claimed by the pope 1 Ecclesiastical history
answers, in the 10th century. Then by the rule which I have alrea-
dy laid down, it is no part of Catholic doctrine. It came a thousand
years too late.

'• Proposition. That the Roman PontiiT does not possess, by divhie right, any
power, either direct or indirect, over the temporalities of i<ing?,or other chris-
tians." This proposition is proved 1st, from the sacred scripture: "As the Pa-
ther sent me, I also se7id you, (John xx. 21.) The .Son of man hath not where
to lay his head, (Mat. viii. 20.) Who hath made me a judge, or a divider over
ou.?" (Luke xii. 14.) Hence we may reason thus. The sovereign Pontiff can
ave no authority over the temporal goods of men by divine right, unless it be
granted to liim by Christ, but he has received no such power from Christ, for
Christ gave to no man a power, which, he liiinself, when on earth, did not pos-
sess; but Christ when on earth possessed no such power, relating to temporal mat-
ters, as appears both from his poverty, and from these words of his, " u)/io hath
made me a judge or a divider over you." Therefore the Roman Pontift does not
possess, by divine authority, any power, &c.

Besides, Christ expressly declared that he was a king, but at the same time, he
positively denied that his kingdom was of this world, (John xviii. 36.) For this
purpose I came into the world, he says, that I might bear testimony to the truth:
in another place he ordered to give to C(esar the things that belong to Cmsar,
(Mat. xxii. 21.) By a miracle, he caused the stater to be found in the mouth of a
fish, that the tribute might be paid for himself and Peter, (Matt. xvii. 27;) and
surely he could not shew, in more express terms, that he did not wish to exer-
cise any temporal authority. Furthermore, wlien he sent his apostles, he, by no
means, spoke to tlieni, concerning temporal afl'airs, or any political authority,
but only of the keys of the kingdom of' heaven, and the power of binding and
loosing; he ordered that, going through the entire world, they woulfl leach
these things which he commanded them; he announced to them many tribula-
tions of every sort, and even death; he commanded them, to advise and reprove
those, who transgress, but that they should not punish them, unless by spiritual
pains: If he will nut hear the church, says he, let him be to thee, as the heathen
anil the publican, (Matt, xviii, 17.): he tluit believeth not, shall be condemned,
(.Mark xvi. 16.) The apostles, in like manner, far from exercising any tempo-
ral power, on the contrary, strongly reconmiended obedience and respect to all
Pagan princes and persecutors, and rulers sent by them.

It can be proved, 2nd. from tradition. We would be tedious, were we to re-
hearse all the testimonies of Fathers, Doctors and chief bishops, who by their
word and example clearly taught, that the civil power was entirely indepen-
dent of the ecclesiastical.

TertuHian in his Apologetic, chap. 30, says: "They, (the christiani) know.

ROMAN CATHOLIC EELIOION. 339

who hath given power to emperors they know that it was God, alone, in

whose power they are, to whom, they are second, and after whom tliey are first

an emperor has his authority, from him by wliom he was created man,

before bein^ emperor. He receives power from him, from whom also lie receiv-
ed the breath of life IFe pray for all emperors." All chri>tiai)s, imbued with

this doctrine, opposed the arms of patience alone, to the most unjust and
most cruel tortures, for more than three hundred years.

Osius, bishop of Cordova, writes thus to the emperor Constantius, who favor-
ed the Arians. " Do you not interfere with ecclesiastical matters," as already
quoted.

Pope Gelasius, in his epistle 8th to Anastasius, a violent enemy of Catholics,
says, " There are two things, O emperor Augustus, by which principally, this
world is governed, the sacred autlionty of the popes, and the authority of kings.
(Labbe ti)m. 4. page 1122.) This pope, therefore, considered that each power
was independent of the other.

]t can be proved, .")d. By theological reasoning. 1. That opinion ought to be
rejected, which was entirely unheard of during the ten first ages; but that opin-
ion which holds that the chief bishop has any just right even^indirect, over tlie
temporal possessions of princes, or other christians, was, by no means, heard of
during the ten first ages, to wit, down to the lime of Gregory VII. who in the year
1080, attempted to depose Henry IV. and disturljetl the peaceof the entire world,
by the assertion of this novel rigiit. Therefore that opinion should be rejected, kc.

2. That opinion should be entirely rejected which would occasion most
grievous evils, but the o])inion which we oppose, gives, &:c. 1. It renders harmo-
ny between the priesthood, and the sovereign power, impossible. 2. It would
prevent infidel princes from embracing the christian religion, and heretics from
returning to the true church. 3. It would aflord a necessary occasion for con-
tinual wars, if it were practised, which, experience has already tooclearly shewn.
Therefore, it should be entirely r(jected,&c. ^c. &c.

Now see here the scholastic method of proving propositions, and
an admirable one it is. We say Isl, scripture leaches it, — 2nd, anti-
quity corroborates it, — 3d, rea.«ion confirms it. That is the method
we follow, in all our schools. This is the solid, and irrefutable man-
ner in which this proposition is laid down and eslablislird. Docs this
look like submillinir to the dictation of the pope in teni])oral matters'?
Did the English ('atholics oiiey the j)retcndc(i absolution hull ? Did
not Catholics under arms, and with arms, as in the case of Julius II.
resist their acknowledged, and in his pro|)er sphere, respected Pon-
tiff! Did they not tin his hands while they kissed his feet 1

Waddinpton tells us that when Louis XII. of France quarreled
with the pope, he called a council of hisho|)s at Tours, and proposed
the question, whether he could detain the pope, as his prisoner, on an
occasion, which he described. They gave an afTiriiiative answer.
This, in addition to what 1 have said, shows how the distinction of

1)ower, and of rights, was undcrstdtjd at that period, and every epoch,
)ack to the apo8tf>lic ages.

My friend asks for a disclaimer of these pretensions, on the i)art
of the pope.

Mr. ('AMrnKi.i.. — Nftt hy the po]ie, hut hy the councils.

Bishop l'iitf:K.i,i,. — TIk^ grMieral councils never mach; the recogni-
tion of this power, an article of faith ; why, then, should they dis-
claim ill

Here is what pope Innocent III. said. Ilis account of this affair
is very curious. It is, indeed, a strong disclaimer, and every word
deserves to hr maturely wi'ighcd.

Cimi r<"X miprriorrni in trmporiililnia niinimc rfCo(>no«riil, «irii:jurl« iilteriui
l.p^ione in »o «e juritdiclioni no«lrr nubjircrr pcjtwil, in rpio vidcniur oli(|uibui,
qiiorl per tripaiim, iion (nntpiniii pater cum film, »«il iBncpiam princep' < uui tub-
clilii potuit (liiipeu*nre. Ucj^i igitur |;ratiaiu i«ciiuut rsquisiti :>~quou uoa toluiu

i."

340 debatje: on tuh

in Ecclesiaj patrimonio, super quo plcnnm in trinporalibus gerinius potestatem,
verum ctiani in aliis regionibiis, ctrlis Ciiusismspeclis, temjjoialein jmijclictiontm
casiialiter t:\evctiu\is. Aon ijuolI ;:litiio juri pni'jutlicHif vilinius, vel putestatem
nobJK indebitani usurpare, cum iion igiioranius Cliristurii in evangtiio rtspondisse;
redite, quae sunt Cit'saris, Ca-sari, et (iu:e sunt Dti, IJco. IVopltr tjuocl postula-
tus ut ha-reditateni diviiltrtt inUr duos : quis, in()uit, constituit uiejudicein inter
vos? Sed quia in Deuteronoinio rontinettr, si (iitiicile et ainbiguuni apud te
"udiciuni esse perspexeris, Surge et asrende ad locum, queni tligit Doniinus
'eustuus,&c. Liber V. E[)ist 12. Innocent III.

Since the King bv no means recognizes a superior in temporal authority, he
could submit to our jurisdiction witliout infrin^^ing upon the right of aiiotlier,
in wliich it seems to some, that he could tKspi nsi', not as a father villi his children;
butasH prince with his sul)jects ; thtrefore we granted tlie King nhat was re-
quisite, because we not only exercise a tempor;il power, I7i crrlaincuses, in the
j).itrinion_v of the church, over which we act witli full authority in temporalities,
but also in other districts, certain matters being considered on : IN'ot that we
wish to determine prematurt ly of another's right, or usurp a ]H)wer not due to
us : since we are not ignorant of what Christ has said in the gospel. On account
of which he was asked to divide an inherit^Dce bttween two, who, says he, hu»
appointed me judge between ye? But that it iswriltm in Deuttr jiomy, if
you find a dithcult and doubtful case, rise and repair to the place, which the
Lord voiir God has chosen, &<•. B. V. E. 12. Innocent III.

Here the pope, himself, quotes scripture and precedent, against
the assumption of such power. Next — behold the testimony of a
particular council, the doctrine of the ancient Fathers, of an eminent
divine, the celebrated Arthur O'Leary, on the matter before us, and
on persecution for conscience sake.

The Council of Toledo lorbids the use of violence to enforce belief: "Because,"
add the lathers," God shows mercy to whom he tliinks fit ; and hardens whom
he pleases." " Pnecipit sancta sy nodus nemini deinceps ad credendum vim in-
ferre. Cui enini Deus vult, miseretur ; et queni vult, indurat."* And the
Council of Lateran, under Tope Alexandtr the third, acknovi ledges, that the
church rejects bloody executions on the score of religion, which proves to dem-
onstration, that the canon charged to the fourth council of Lateran, under Inno-
cent the third, in which canon, " the secular powers are addressed to take an
oath, to exterminate all heretics out of their territories, and in case of refusal, to
have their subjects absolved from their allegiance, and the lands of the heretics
to be seized by the Catholics," <fcc. is spurious. Collyer, the Protestant his-
torian, in his fifth volume of Ecclesiastical History, acknowledges that it is net
found in any copy, coeval with the council. Some hundred years after liie
council, it was produced to light by a German. And we know full well, thatat
that time, several spurious ))iece3 were produced, to serve the purposes of
rancor.

Were even such a decree, or any other of a similar nature, genuine, the Cath-
olic? would reject them, without any breach of faith ; because the church has
no power over life, limb, the rights of sovereigns, the property of individuals,
or any temporal concern whatsoever. Her bishops, then, whether separately,
or in a collective body, cannot graft any such power into their spiritual commis-
sion. They would act in an extrajudicial manner, and beyond the limits of their
sphere. This I have proved in my remarks on Mr. VWsley's letter, and elsewhere.

Far from countenancing cruelty, d( ath and o[)pression, " the sijirit of the
church was, in such a manner, the spirit o( meekness and charity, that she pre-
tented, as much as in her power, the death, of criminals, and even of her most
cruel enemies," says Eleury. v You have seen how the lives of the murderers
of the martyrs of' Armenia were saved ; and St. Austin's ellbrt to preserve the
Donatists, (who had exercised such cruellies against the Catholics) from the
rigor of the imperial laws. You have seen how much the church detested the
indiscreet zeal of those bishops, who prosecuted the heresiarch Priscillian to
death.

In general, the church saved the lives of all criminals, as far as she had power.
St. Augustine accounts for this conduct, in his letter to Macedonius, where we

* Cap. do Judsis, dist. AS.

B03tA:« CATHOLIC EELIGION. 341

read, that the church wished there were no pains in this life, but of the healing
kind, to destroy, not man, but sin, and to preserve the sinner from eternal tor-
ments."* If, in after ages, some pones and bishops deviated from this plan of
meekness and moderation, their conduct should not involve a consequence inju-
rious to the principles of the Catholic church, which condemns such proceedings.
The religion of Catholics and Protestants condemns frauds, fornications, drunk-
enness, revenge, duelling, perjur}', &c. Some of their relaxed and impious
writers have even attempted, not oiTly lo palliate, but even to apologize for such
disorders. The chil Iren of the christian religion daily practise them, — is the
christian relif^ion accountable for the brea'^h of her own laws?

My friend made some display, on the persecuting canon of the coun-
cil of Lateran, and yet Collyer, a Protestant historian, in the 5ih vo-
lume of his ecclesiastical history, pronounces it spurious ! He ac-
knowledges that it is not found in the copy of the decrees coeval with
the council ; that it was manufactured by the Germans, hundreds of
years afterwards ; and that there were several spurious documents
manuficlured about the same time. Now hear a distinguished pre-
late of our church, Dr. England, in. his speech before congress, in
which he leaves nothing important unsaid on this topic. I am happy
to incorporate his eloquent remarks in this debate.

" A political ditticulty lias been sometimes raised here. If this infallible tribu-
nal which you profess yourselves bound to obey, should command you to over-
turn our government, and tfllyou that it is the will of God to have it new model-
ed, will you be bound to obey? And how then can we consider those men to
be good citizens, who profess to owe obedience to a foreign authority, to an au-
thority not recognized in our constitution; to an authority which has excommu-
nicated and deposed sovereigns, and which has absolved subjects and citizens
fron» their bond of allegiance.

Our ansiver to this is extremely simple and very plain, it is, that we would not
be bound to obey it; that we recognize no such authority. I would not allow
to the pope or to any bishop of our church, outside this Union, the smsllest in-
terference with the humblest vote at our most insignificant balloting box. He
has no right to such interference. You must, from the view which I have taken,
see the plain distinction between spiritual authority, and a right to interfere in
the regulation of human government or civil concerns. You have in your con-
stitution wisely kept thi;iii distinct and separate. It will be wisdom and prudence
and safety lo continue the separation. Your constitution says that Congress shall
have no power to restrict the free exercise of religion. Suppose your digni-
fied body lo-niorrow attempted to rclrict me in the exercise ol that right ; though
the law, as it would be callcil, should piss your two houses and obtain the signa-
ture of the presicli-nt, I would not obey it, because it would be no law, it would
be an usurpation: for you cannot make a law in violation of your constitution;
you havfi no power in such a case. So, if that tribunal ^vhi^h is established by
the Ocatur to le«tify lo iiie what he has revealed, and lo make the necessary
regulations of discipline for the governiiient of the church, shall presume to go
beyond that boiinlary which circumscribes its power, its acts are invalid, my
rights are not to be destroyed by its usurpalKin, and there is no principle- of my
creed which prevents my using my natural right of proper resistance' to any tyran-
nical usurpation. You have no power to interfere with my r< ligious rights, tho
tribunal of the ehurrli has no jiower to interfere with my civil rights. It is n
duty which every pood man ought to di«rhnr)^e for his own, aiirl (or the public
benefit, to resist any encroachinenl upon «ither. We (lf> not heheve that (Jod
pave to the church any power to iiiterferi- with our civil ri^htxor our civil concerns.
Christ our I,ord refused to interfere in the division of the iiilieritaiice between two
brothers, one of whom rerpiested that interference. The civil tribiiniilH of Jiiden
were vesferl with siifTirirnl authority for that purpose, luid he did not transfi-r it
tohisBposlles. It must hence be apparent ttiat any idea of the Itonian ('atholics of
those republics being in nnv way under the inlliience of any foreign ei <|rsi«»ticBl
power, or Inleetl of any church authority in the exercise of their civil riglits, i*
a serious miitakc. There is no class of our fellow citizens more free to think.

• Flaury, Discoorf, 9. No. 0.
2dQ

343 DEBATE ON THE

and to act for themselves on the subject of our rights than we are, and I believe
there is not any portion of the Aineriraii family more jealous of foreign influence,
or more ready to resist it. Wc liave brethren of our church in every part of the
globe, under every form of government. This is a subject upon which each of us
is free to act as he thinks proper. We know of no tribunal in our church which
can interfere in our proceedings as citizens. Our ecclesiastical authority existed
before our constitution, is not aHected, i)y it; there is not in the world a consti-
tution which it doe? not precede, with whkh it could not co-exist; it has seen
nations perish, dynasties decay, empires prostrate; it lias co-existed wilh all, it
has survived them all, it is not dependent upon any one of them; they may still
change, and it will still continue.

We now come to examine what are called the persecuting laws of our church.
In the year 1215, at the council of Lateran, certain heresies were condemned
by the first canon; and amongst other things this canon recites as Catholic faith,
in opposition to the errors of those whom it condemned, that there was but one
God the Creator of all things, of spirits as well as bodies; the author of the Old
Testament and of the Mosaic dispensation, equally as of the J\ew Testament
and of the Christian dispensation; that he created not only the good angels,
butal«o the devil and the bad angels, originally coming good from his hand, and
becoming wicked by their own malice*; i^c. In its third canon it excommunicates
those hei-etics, and declares them to be separated from the body of the church.
Then follows a direction, that the heretics so condemned, are to be given up to
the secular powers, or to their bailiffs, to be duly punished. This direction con-
tinues to require of all bishops and others having authority, to make due search
within their several districts for those heretics, and if they will not be induced
to retract their errors, desires that they should be delivered over to be punished.
There is an injunction then to all temporal lords to cleanse their dominions by
exterminating those heretics: and if they will not, within a year from having
been so admonished by the church, cleanse their lands of Ikis heretical filth,
they shall be deprived if they have superior lords, and if they be superior lords
an(i be negligent, it shall be the duty of the metropolitan and his provincial
bishops to exconnnunicate them, and if an}' one of those lords paramount so ex-
comniunicated for this negligence shall continue during twelve months under the
excommunication, the metropolitan shall certify the same to the pope, who, find-
ing admonition useless, shall tlepose this prince, and absolve his subjects from
their oaths of fealty, and deliver the territory over to Catholics, who naving ex-
terminated the heretics sliall remain in peaceable possession.

This is the most formidable evidence adduced against the position which I
have laid down, that it is not a doctrine of our church, that we are bound to
persecute those who differ from us in belief. I trust that I shall not occupy-
very much of your time in showing, that this enactment does not in any way
weaken that assertion. I shall do so, by satisfying you that this is a special law
for a particular case; and also by convincing you that it is not a canon of the'church
respecting an}' of those points in which we admit her infallibility; nor is it a
canon of the church.

The doctrines condemned in this first canon originated in Syria, touched lightly
at the islands of the Archipelago, settled down in Bulgaria, and spread into the
south of Europe, but were principally received in the vicinity of Albi, in France.
The persons condenmed held the Manicliean principle of there being two crea-
tors of the universe; one a good being, the author of the New Testament, the
creator of good angels, and generally of spiritual essence; the other an evil be-
ing, the creator of bodies, the author of the Mosaic dispensation, and generally
of the Old Testament. They stated that marriage was unlawful, and co-opera-
tion with the principle of evil was criminal. The consequences to society were
of the very worst description, immoral, dismal, and descdating. The church
examined the tloctrine, condemned it as heretical, and cut ofl' those who held or
abetted it, from her communion. Here, according to the principles which I have
maintained before you, her power ended. Beyond this wc claim no authority:
the church, by divfnc right, we say, infallibly testifies what doctrines Christ has
revealed, and by the same right, in the same manner, decides that what contra-
dicts this revelation is erroneous; but she has no divine authority to make a law
which shall strip of their property, or consign to the executioner, those whom
she convicts of error. The doctrine of our obligation to submit does not extend
to force us to submit to an usurpation; and if the church made a law upon a

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 343

subject beyond her commission for legislation it would be invalid; there would
be no proper claim for our obedience: usurpation does not create a right. The
council could by right make the doctrinal decision; but it had no right to make
the temporal enacliiient: and where there exists no right to legislate on one
side, there is no obligation of obedience on the other. If this was then a canon
of the church, it was not one ia making which she was acting withm her consti-
tutional juris liction, it was an usurpation of temporal government, and the doc-
trine of infallibility does not bear upon it.

Every document respecting this council, the entire of the evidence respecting:
it, as well as the very mode of framing the enactments, prove that it was a special
law regarding a particular case. The only persons whose errors were con-
demned at that council were those whom I have described. The general prin-
ciple of legal exposition restraining the application of penal enactments must
here have full weight, and will restrain the ap[)lication of the penalty to the
only criminals brought within its view. But the evidence is still more confirmed,
by the special words of detinile meaning, tliis, and Jilth, which were specially
descriptive of only those persous^ the first by its very nature, the second by the
nature of their crime; and the continued exposition of the enactment restrained
its application to the special case, though frequentlv attempts had been made
by individuals to extend its application, not in virtue of the statute, but in virtue
of analogy. It would then be improperly forcing its construction to say that its
operation was to be general, as it evidenti}' was made only for a particular case.

Id viewing the preamble to this council, as well as from our knowledge of
history, we discover that this was not merely a council of the church, but it was
also a congress of the civilized world. The state of the times rendered such
assemblages not only usual but necessary: and each legislative body did its own
business by its own authority; and very generally the subjects which were de-
cided upon by one body in one point of view, came under the consideration of
the other assembly in a diflerent point of view, and their separate decisions were
engrossed upon a joint record.

Boinetimes they were preserved distinct and separate, but copyists, for their
own convenience, brought together all the articles regarding the same subject,
from what source soever they were obtained. Such was precisely the case in
the instance before \ii. There were present on this occasion, by themselves or
by their legates, the king of Sicily, emperor elect of the Romans, the emperor of
the east, the king of France, the kingof Kngland, the king of .Arragon, the king
of Jerusalem, the king of Cyprus, several other kings, and lords paramount, so-
vereign states, and princes. Several of the bishops were princes or barons. In
the ecclesiastical council, the third canon terminated exiiclly in one sentence,
which was that of the excommunication or separation from the church, of those
whom the first canon had condemned, whatever name or names they might as-
sume; Irecaiise they had in several places several appellations, and were con-
tinually dividing olf and changing names a.s they separated. The duty and the
jurisdiction of the council came to this; and the ancient records give no more
M the portion of its enactments. But the congress of the temporal powers then
made trie subsetpient part as their ennctment: and tliUH this penal and civil re-
gulation was not an act of the council, but an act of the congress : and it is not
a canon concerning the doctrine of the church, nor indeed is it by any means
a canon, though the copyists have a'lded it to tin; canon as regarding {he very
same subject ; and as confessedly the excommuniculion in th<' tliini canon re-
garded only the special case of those particular heretics, the addition of the
penal enactment (o this narticular canon is confirmatory evidence that those
who adde<l it knew that the penalty in the one case wa» only co-cxtcniivc with
the exconiniunicnlion in the rjllier.

Having thus seen that thin canon of the f'ouncil of Lnti-rnn was not n doctrinal
decision of our chur< h e«l:ililiiliing the doctrine of persecution, and coinmnnd-
ing to pcr^eculf , but that it was a civil enactment by the (enipoml poweragoinst
persons whom they Uioked upon as rriniinah, it is iiiDre the province of the pol-
itician or of the jurist than of the divine to deriile upon its propritty. I may,
however, be permittrd to say that in my opinion the exiHlence of civili/.ed socie-
ty rerpiired Iti enactment, lhou;;h no good man can iifiprovr of iie\eral »1pu>>(s
which were committed under the pretext of its execution, nor ran tiny rational
man pretend that because of the existence of a special law for a particular pur-

344 DEBATi: ON THE

pose, every case which may bethought analogous lo that for which proTision
was made is to be iileo;nlly aubjerteii to those provisions.

We are now arrived at the i)h\(e where we may easily find the origin and the
extent of the papal power ot deposing sovereigns, and of absolving sul.jtcts
from their ouths of allegiance. 'I'o judge properly of facts, we must know their
special circumstances, not their mere outline. The circumstances of Christep-
Jom were then widely diflereiit from those in which we now are placed. Europe
was then under the feudal system. I have seldom found a writer, not a Catholic,
who, in treating of that age and that systtni, has been accurate, and who has not
done us very serious injustice. But a friend of mine, who is a respectable member
of your honorable body, has led me to read Hallam's account of it, and I must
say that I have seldom met with so much candor, and, what I call, so much
truth. From reading his statement of that system it will be plainly seen that
there existed amongst the Christian potentates a sort of federation, in which they
bound themselves by certain regulations, and to the observance of those they
were held not merely by their oaths but by various penalties, sometimes they
consented the penalty should be the loss of their station. It was of course ne-
cessary to ascertain that the fact existed before its consequences should be declared
to follow ; it was also necessarj- to establish some tribunal to examine and to de-
cide as to the existence of the fact itself, and to proclaim that existence. Amongst
independent sovereigns there was no superior, and it was natural to fear that
mutual jealousy would create great difficult}- in selecting a chief; and that what
originated in concession might afterwards be claimed as a right. They were
however all members of one church, of which the Pope was the head, and, in
this respect, their common father : and by universal consent it was regulated
that he should examine, ascertain the fact, proclaim it, and declare its conse-
quences. Thus he did in reality possess the power of deposing monarchg, and
of absolving their subjects from oaths of fealty, but only those monarchs who
were members of that federation, and in the cases legally provided for, and by
their concession, not by divine right, and during the term of that federation and
the existence of his commission. He governed the church by divine rjghf, he
deposed kings and absolved subjects from their allegiance by human concession.
I preach the doctrines of my church by divine right, but I preach from this spot
not by that right but by the permission of others.

It is not then a doctrine of our chiircli that the pope has been divinely com-
missioned either to depose kings or to interfere with republics, or to absolve
the subjects of the former from their allegiance, or interfere with the civil con-
cerns of the latter. When the persecuted English Catholics, under Elixabtth,
found the pope making an unfounded claim to this right, and upon the shadow
of that unfounded right making inroads upon their national independence, by
declaring who should or who should not be their temporal ruler, they well
showed how little they regarded his absolving them from their allegiance, for
they volunteered their services to protect their liberties, which their Catholic
ancestors had labored to establish. And she well knew that a Catholic might
safely be entrusted with the admiralty of her fleet, and that her person was se-
cure amongst her disgraced Catholic nobility and gentry, and their persecuted
adherents; although the Court of Rome had issued its bull of absolution, and
some divines were found who endeavored to prove that what originated in vol-
untary concession of states and monarchs was derived from divine institution.
If then Elizabeth, of whose character I would not wish in this place to express
my opinion, was safe amidst those whom she persecuted for their faith, even when
the head of their church absolved them from allegiance, and if at such a moment
they flocked round her standard to repel Catholic invaders who came with con-
secrated banners, and that it is admitted on all hands that in so doing they vio-
lated no principle of doctrine or of discipline of their church, as we all avow :
surely America need not fear for the fidelity of her Catholic citizens, whom she
cherishes and whom she receives to her bosom with affection and shelters from the
persecution of others. Neither will any person attempt to establish an analogy be-
tween our fefleration and tliat of feudalism, to argue that the pope can do p.mongst
us what he did anion2:st I'uropean potent.itcs under cirnmistances widely different.

My worthy opponent said, that he would only tmich on persecution.
My friends, persecution had marked me for a victim in my native
land, and forced me to seek an Asylum in America, when I was
young and friendless ! Persecution is there, in full operation at this

R05U.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 345

very hour. Scarcely a breeze comes across the ocean, without bring-
ing on its wings, fresh tidings, of blood, shed under Protestant per-
secution — by ministers of the Protestant faith.

Widows there kneel in the blood of their own children ; and, because
excess of grief has made them maniacs, they drink that blood, and
curse the authors of their misery. Is not this true ? Does not the
un'verse know and shudder at it 1 And having been compelled to
flee from intolerance, having fought against it, must we still see the
green-3yed monster, trampling upon the vine and tig tree, here, where
we had hoped to sit down under their shade, in safety, and in peace,
with our brethren of every denomination 1 Must we still fear the
midnight knock at the door, and the domiciliary visit, by a brutal
soldiery 1 Must the perishing orphans see the bread taken out of
their mouths by rapacious parsons, and their mother's cloak (their
only covering of a wintry night) distrained, to pay the tithe proctor T
Where will you find tyranny like this ? Would this be a better state
of things, than what we, in this free country enjoy ? Bigots would
blast this glorious prospect. They would proscribe one sect after
another. The appetite for blood, they have, even now, evinced, and
we know, when once indulged, how hard it is to sate it ! But I must
call upon Protestant testimony for the wrongs of Ireland — and I will
bnly touch upon the persecution. Taylor, a graduate of Trinity Col-
lege, in his history of Ireland, says :

■■ It uould be a mtre w;>ate of words to reprobate this iniquitoux law, or ra-
ther this violation of all law, human and divine. IS'o Irish Protestant ran pe-
ruse its endctnitnls without a blu«h for the shame thus brought on his religion,
when it was thus virtually declarid that the reformed system should owe it*
• trength and security, not to the purity of its principles, not to the excellence
of its doctrines, but to robbery and oppression, to dissentioii between father and
child, to stimulating one neighbor to sei/.e the fruits of another's industry, to
the desecration of a solemn t^aci anient, by making it a test for ofTire. ilow can we
be surprised tlial the reformed religion is unpopular in Ireland, when by this
and similar laws, a Protestant legislature virtually declared that Protestantism
colli 1 not be secure unless it entered into alliancr with iielial. Mammon and
Moloch?" Hist, of Irrlaml, Hy W. C Taylor, F.sq. A. B. of Trinity college,
Dubllii, page Km, Vol. 2n I. New York edit.' 1833.

Now tell me if the annals of Catholicism can produce any thing
Hke a paralU'l to this ! After enumerating the most tyrannical laws
that Draco, or Dioclecir\n ever enacted, (wn we discover more pro-
scription — more cruelty 1

Aiy friends, I do not blame the Protestant rclif^ion for this. It is
the spirit of the country and government; and the shame is, that
when (Jatholic governments have ceased to persecute, Protestant ones
continue to do r.o.

My friends, were I to roi)<;nlt my own feelings, I should be better

fileased to draw a veil over tlir;sc Inrrors ; but my opponent made al-
usions to the in(|iii)Htion, as an argument that, if ever the ("atholics
became the most numerous, they wfnild make it a part of tlieir Ry«tem
to persecute ; as if llie nnmc argument, if argument it r\u\ he railed,
would not be ef|\ially strong against all tlie jea<linfr ehuI'^lH•(^ nf Pro-
testantism ; an(i if the gentleman makes any further extracts, I will
meet them just in the same way, and rondemn both ('athoiics and
ProtesLTnts, for that by which they are aliki' disgraced. Now, aa
he brings the account of the iiKiuisitioD before us, and proves it to be
the most bloody tyranny, setting aside all forms of legal prticedure
&c., I will refer you to Hume's history of Kngland, for an inquisi'

SIO REnATi: O.V TllK

lion equally terriblo, and more unjust, under Protestant England —
the famous Star-Chainber, where, upon the least suspicion, without
proof, the oflicer was sent to the iiousos of the most distinguished
men, nay even to their beds, and forced them in the dead of night
to a prison. Sir Thomas Moore, l)ishoj) F'isher, the aged countess of
Salisbury, &c. arc instances with wliich I could fill up some horrific
pages.

As to oaths ; the gentleman says that I have taken two which are
incompatible with each other. This is not so. My ecclesiastical oath
is of a purely spiritual nature. The only oath of allegiance, of a
temporal character, Avhich I have ever taken, was to the United States.
These two oatlis cannot be incompatible. The heavens and the earth
are not more different from one another, than they are. They cannot
possibly interfere with each other. Therefore the bishop's oath is, by
no means, what the gentleman has represented it. The pope has ab-
jured the odious sense which the document is made to bear. It is no
sin surely, to swear that we will not kill tlie pope. Would my friend
make it such 1 ' Saving my order'' is a clause which the gentleman
should have expatiated upon, and our order is forbidden, under the
most awful penalties, to shed any one's blood, but our own, if we are
called upon to suffer martyrdom, and that of the mystic victim of
the altar, as a propitiation for our own sins, and those of the entire
world. Pcrscquar was never intended to mean persecute. It alludes
to moral, not brute force. The weapons of our warfare are spiritual,
not carnal. The Latin word means only to follow up with persever-
ing argument, and persuasion, as I am doing this day. Before I took
that oath, I read it again and again, and took the decisions of the
bishops of America upon it. We all agreed that there was nothing
in it contrary to the allegiance due to the United States.

M)' friend spoke of Catholics violating their oaths. I would ask
if there is a nation that has given such splendid testimony of respect
for oaths, as Catholic Ireland? For 300 years of the bloodiest per-
secution that was ever inflicted, they have steadily refused to take
an oath which every thing but conscience urged them to take.

My friends, all this ought to be remembered, not for the gratifica-
tion of hostile feelings, but for justice, and as a fair offset, to balance
the Spanish Inquisition, which is all the while not Catholic. — [Time
expired.]

Half past 11 o'clock, A. M.
Mil. Campbell rises —

We have, my friends, had matter of debate thrown before us during
the last hour, that would require seven days more to discuss. An
ocean instead of a harbor opens to our view. Good policy, however !
Instead of concentrating on the main points, which, above all others,
it behooved the bishop to clear up, if, indeed, he had any hopes of being
able to defend himself, he gives us a little of every thing, great and
small; present, past, and future. Thirty minutes would not be enough
for me to single out, arrange, and state the contrary propositions, to
cover all his last premises. As the gentleman knows what he can best
defend, and what he cannot, and as his lime is at his own disposal, I
have no right to complain. I proceed, therefore, not to recapitulate
my argument, as I expected we both would have done in our last

EOilAN CATHOLIC EELIGIO.'T. 347

speeches : but to brush the dust off a few of the prominent points,
crowded together in his last effort.

The bishop's denial of the genuineness of this Rhemish Testament,
at this time, is exceedingly unfair; and still worse, from whatever mo-
tive it may proceed, it is wholly reckless of history and fact. I say it
is unfair; because, when near the beginning of the debate, I showed
him the Testament, and challenged him to object to it if he had any-
thing against it, that it might be settled forthwith, he was silent. I
went even farther — I asked him for another copy, or edition of it more
correct, if he had one : he was still silent. And now, at the close, he
has held up the Dcuaj' Bible, without these notes, published long
since, not pretending to be the same work, either as to time, place, or
circumstance, as proof that this edition of the New Testament is not
authentic! But my audience, and the public, will appreciate all this.
I do assert, then, and my assertion has as much logic in it as his, that
the gentleman has misrepresented this affair — that this book is truly
what its title page declares it; and that both the text and the notes are
as truly Roman Catholic as the Douay Bible. Hear the tide;

"The Atw Ttstaiiit nt ol' our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; translated out
of the Latin Vulgate, diligently conipured with the original Greek, and first pub-
lished b}' the English college of Rhtiins, Anno 1582: with the Original Preface,
Argument?, and Tables, Marginal jVotes and Annotations."

Again: hear the recommendation of this work by " ministers of the
gospel, and other learned persons of various denominations." They
say, "This edition contains all the notes of the original edition as pub-
lished at Rheims, A. D. 1582." Not a new and amended impression,
suppressing the more offensive comments, but the original itself. This
recommendation is signed by more than a hundred gentlemen of as
much literary and religious reputation as can be found in the U. Slates.

Once more:

Certikicate. — We have compared this New York edition of the Rhemish
Testament and Annotations with the first publication of that volume, which wa«
issued at Rheims in 1582; and after examination, we do hereby certify, that the
preient re-print is an exact and faithful copy of the original work, without
abridgment or addition, except that the Latin of a few phrases which were trans-
lated by the annotators, and some unimportant expletive words »vere undesign-
edly oiuitted. The orthography also has been modernized.

John HRKfKf<RinGr..

W'n. 1,1AM C. linoWM.EE, D. I).

Tho.mas Dk Witt, D. D.
Duncan Dunhar.

AR( IIMIAI.I) ^LA( i.w.
VVll.I.IA^t I'ATTIiN.

To all these certificates there are not less llian one hundral ami thirty
name*. But the gentleman's calling this authority in question, is in
pood keepinnr with his whole course. There is no authority against
the church of Ronm — nrillicr Protestant nor Catholic to ho, believed,
if they say any thing against lirr. Hut infi<l(;ls, and siirli Protoslants
as flatter her in h«'r assumptions, are cationical as lK)ly writ! If the
bishop is to b'' believed, all Protestant historians, theologians, authors,
&c. opposed to the Roman assumptions, are liars. In proof and de-
monstration of the suprr-excpjlency of Prf>lostant principles, and of tlie
debasing, degrading, and enslaving principles of the pa])acy, linteiuied
to have drawn a full comparison between the Protestant and ('alliolic

fiarts of Ireland; the Protestant and Catholic countries of Swit7.or-
and — between Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Protestant England —

848 DEBATE ON THE

between the United Stales and the South American States^^betwten
Protpstant and Roman Catholic America. But I cannot now attempt
it ; and much do I regret it : for such a comp;uison fairly drawn, would
amount to the most satisfactory demonstration of the political, literary,
and moral tendencies of the two systems. Plain, as proof from holy
writ, it would thus liave appeared, that this superstition, like the touch
of the torpedo, lays a bemimbinor, paralizing, and blighting hand on
all within its grasp.

The gentleman is yet on indulgences and purgatory, when he ought,
in reply to my last speech, to have endeavored, if possible, to relieve
his cause from imputations the most serious and the most revolting to
American ears. I have not thought it important to descant upon the
tariff of sins, or to give a tabular view of the prices at which certain
sins were rated in gold and silver in the market of indulj^ences. Nor
have I at all inquired why, in this tax-book, for killing a layman a less
Bum is asked than for simply striking a priest, wiliiout breaking the
skin. These questions, though capable of solution from authentic docu-
ments, are the dreams of purgatory I deem so inferior, and so un-
blushingly barefaced impositions, that I prefer matters of more grave
concern to this community for the time allotted us. That indulgences
are bona fide licenses to commit sin, and not simple absolution for past
sins, is as susceptible of proof as that Martin Luther began the Protes-
tant reformation.

The gentleman will not defend the popes, he says, in their attempts
to exercise supreme political power; but asks, "Did the kings of the
nations ever acquiesce in it?" That kings for centuries received and
held their crowns at the sovereign pleasure of the popes, is just as ob-
vious a historic fact, as that there were popes at all. Sometimes, in-
deed, the kings fought against these assumptions, and sometimes they
acquiesced. But the ready subordination of the state to the church
evinced in the magistrates executing the anathemas of the church, in
putting to death those denoted as heretics by the church, shows in what
a state of subserviency and pliancy political princes were held by the
popes. That is just the very terror of church and state — ;the very
supremacy which we fear, and which is so antipodal to our institutions.

It is putting heretics or reformers to death, and supporting a human
priesthood by the state according to the dictation of the church, which
makes that union, or subserviency, so wicked and odious in our estima-
tion. And will the gentleman ask, what Roman Catholic ^tate, nation,
or prince, ever did such a thing ? !

In his counter displays of Roman Catholic doctrine, my friend has
not given you the trans-Alpine doctrine. The Cis-Alpiuo, or Gallican
doctors, are not of the old Roman Catholic school. They are almost
semi-protestant on those very points on which he lias introduced thern.
They are no evidence against the standard doctrines of that church
on these questions. The French Catholics began to stand aloof from
the high and haughty pretensions of their trans-montane brethren.
They are the most liberal portion of the Roman church, and have, con-
sequently, done more for the promotion of science than all the rest of
the Catholic world put together. Bishop England gives their views.

I asked for an authentic disclaimer of the attributes of the Roman
church, and of those acts and deeds indicative of her tyrannical, op-
pressive and persecuting spirit which I have detailed. I ask this still ;

EO>U.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 349

and while I do it in a tone indicative of that earnestness which the
occasion requires, I do il in the same benevolence to my opponent and
his party which 1 felt and expressed at the beginning of this discus-
sion. The times and the occasion peremptorily demand it. We know
what individual priests and bishops have said against popes and coun-
cils, and their proceedings, and against other parts of that system: but
these are said for effect ad caplandum vulgus, and will be unsaid by
the same individuals, or by others, when occasion requires. I have
brought very serious allegations against the lioman Catholic institu-
tion, and authorities for them — all of them authentic, and most of them
never disputed by my opponent. He disclaims these principles, acts,
and movements : but he disproves not one of them. Nor would the
disclaiming of them by all the bishops in America, disprove one of
them. The council of Trent has ordained and enjoined all these prin-
ciples of implicit and blind obedience, intolerance, proscription, and
persecution. No council has since met, and no power but a general
council can define a single article of faith, or rule of manners, accord-
innr to the declarations of my antagonist. Indeed, the doctrine of tho
council of 'JVent must remain immutalile and infallible while time en-
dures, according to him : for no other general council can possibly
contravene it ; and, therefore, while the Roman church exists, she
must be, what I have shown she was, before and since the council of
Trent.

This council met in a boisterous lime. They met to oppose and put
down Protestantism. They knew the allegations of Protestants
against their doctrine. If then, they could have abandoned those prin-
ciples for the sake of either reclaiming or defeating the Lutherans,
that was the time to do it. They sat long enough, and debated with
zeal enough ; and yet they dare not discuss the papal authority. Tho
pope forbade them to debate his office, jurisdiction, or authority, and
ihey did not attempt it. Tho pope signed their decrees, and all that was
done there was done irrevocably and forever. The disavowal or the
disclaiming of any priest or bishoj) in the Roman Catholic church, is
not worth more, and has no more authority, than mine. It is, therefore,
of no value for my learned opponent, or any American prelate to say
that he does not approve this or that; or, agree to this or that. They
must all submit to, and they will all inculcate on all suitable occa-
sions, every decree of the council of Trent. Thus did the Jesuits in
Abyssinia. They first ('xphined away every thing: but finally ex-
plained it bnck again, and had almost Haddled tho pope and tho coun-
cil of Trent forcvT on those nnfortunnto Abyssirnans.

I could, had I the time now, from that very history of Ireland from
■which the gentleman read you an extract, a copy of which I loo have
lying on lh<! table, — I say, I can from ihis book show that the ancient
christian church of Irrlaiid was su!)jng.il('d to tin! church of Rome, by
this very species of rhetoric, and that finally tho whole island was
enslaved to the pope by the same nienns : for in Kiigland, Scotland,
Wales, and Ireland, there were (Miristian churches, ages before tho
popes of Rome were born. But by this chamelion attribute of becom-
ing all ihingH to all men, for a while, she has rnado all men become
what she pleases.

Thus by degrees under this system, the human spirit is broken, de-
graded and debased, night ensues, and Onally, gross darkness covers
2E

350 DEBATE ON THE

the people. Even in Canada since the papacy has gained the ascend-
ency, laws have been passed in the provincial assemblies, giving' to
school commissioners and grrand jurors the privilege of" making their
inar/c, instead of wrilitiir Iheir names .'" Nothing can preserve our re-
publican institutions but a system of intellectual and moral culture,
accessible to every child born upon our soil or brouglil to our shores.
Unless we thus benevolently co-operate in this great cause of human-
ity, tills last and best hope of the oppressed of all nations will vanish
from the eartli, and a new and ghostly despotism shall arise and ex-
tend its iron sceptre over this our beloved land. Nothing but intelli-
gence and virtue universally diffused, can save us from this dread ca-
tastrophe. In Protestant Prussia, with a Roman Catholic minority,
they understand so well the importance and utility of education, and
its power to dissipate the darkness of superstition, always tyrannical,
that every child is by law compelled to be educated, and that morally
as well as intellectually.

There remains an important point or two yet to be noticed. The
gentleman is exceedingly squeamish in his avowals of this oatb, which
forever binds the Roman priesthood to tiie court of Rome. He admits,
however, that after due consultation or meditation had, he took the
oath, clauses of which constrain him to " increase and advance the
authority of the pope," and to " persecute and oppose heretics and
schismalics." He s&y s persequor means not to persecute.

Bishop Purcell. It means to follow, and nothing more.

Mk. Cainipbell. It is a generic term, and means to follow with the
sword or faggot, or the hand or foot, only in the way of opposition,
however. Sequor is to follow, but persequor is to follow with ven-
geance.

I have learned this morning that it can be proved under oath that all
the bishops in America have taken this oath ; and that without equiv-
ocation or mental reservation ; of which fact, however, I was before
apprised : but the gentleman himself has admitted it, and I pursue it
no further. I am, however, disappointed, to observe, that he has been
at no pains to reconcile his allegiance to two governments so singu-
larly repugnant to each other in all their elements and tendencies.

My friend fled from persecution in Ireland ! From paying tithes, I
suppose, according to the Levitical law ! Well, this tithe system is
a falling concern, and will soon pass away. But is not this his perse-
cution an ingenious off-set to fifty millions of martyrs sacrificed by
the papal power?! Some are whispering that this Roman persecu-
ting spirit is dying away as the tithe system. Let those, however,
who think so, in addition, to what I have already read from va-
rious sources, accept a few words from the "Plea for the West" —
From the 2d. ed. of M. Aignan of the French Academy in Paris, A.
D., 1818.

" I'hssiiig to the 10th article of the Concordat, in wiiich it is said that his Most
Christian iMajesty shall employ, in concert wilh the Holy Father, all the means
in his power to cause to cease.'as soon as possible, all the disorders and obstacles
which obstruct the welfare of relijc'on and the execution of the laws of the
church — were [the Protestants] to ask (although the profuse shedding of their
blood might have informed them,) What are the laws of the church? The acts
of Pius VII. himself, and the writings on which the church rests her authority
would answer, THE LXTER.MINATIO-N OF HERr.TICS, THE CONFISCATION 01'
THF.IR GOODS, AND THEIR PRIVATION OF EVERY CIVIL PRIVILEGE."

To this the author subjoins a note: "Certain portions of real estate which had

K03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGIO'. 351

belon'i^'ecl to ecclesiastics, had passed into the hands of Protestant princes. Pius VII.
in 1805, complained of it to his nunrio residing- at Vienna; and reminded him that,
according to the laws of the cliurch, not only could not heretirs possess ec-
clesiastical property, but tliat also they coulti not possess any property whatever,
since the crime of hertsy ought to be punished by the confiscation of goods.
He added that tiie suI)jectsof a jirinre, who is a heretic, should be released from
every duty to him, freed from all obli°:ation and all homage. ' In truth,' said he,
•we have'fdilen on times so calamitous, and so humiliating to the spouse of Jesus
Christ, that it is not possible for her to practise, nor expedient to recall so holy
maxims; ami she is forced to interrupt the course of her just severities against
the enemies of the faith. But if she cannot exercise her right to depose the
parlizans of iieresy from their principalities, and declare that they have forfeited
all their goods; can she ever permit that, to enrich themselves, they should
despoil her of her own proper dominions? What a subject of derision— would
she not present to these very heretics and unbelievers, who, while they insulted
her erief, would say they had discovered the method of rendering her tolerant?

"The same pont'itT in'his instructions to his agents in Poland, given in 1808,
professes this doctrine, that the laws oC the church do not recognir.e any civil
privileges as belonging to persons not Catholic; that their marriages arc not
valid; that thry can live only in concubinage; that their children, being bas-
tards, are incapacitated to inherit; tliat the Catholics themselves are not validljr
married, except they are united according to the rules prescribed bv the couitof
Rome; and that, when they are married accordinrjto these rules, tlicir marriage
is vali'l, had th<y in other respects infringed all the laws of their country." —
Quarterly Register, vol. 3. p. 89.

Remember then, that accordintr to the acts of Pius VII. the laws of
the church ititi command the cxiermination of heretics — the confiscation
of their goods, and their deprivation of every privilesic — that Protestanti
nave no privileires ,• and that the present calm is owing, not to a change
of spirit, but of times : for saj's the pope : " the times arc so calamitous
— that the church is forced to interrupt the course of her jl'ST severities
against the ene.mies of the faith !" These are truly calamitous
times!! Alas for prosperous days !

I am indeed sorry that our debate has been so much out of logical
order. An issue has never been fairly and fully lurnicd on one of my
propositions. INly friend occupied the ground which lie chose. He
was respondent. How he has responded, it remains for others to
judge. He has been positive and declamatory enough, and very scru-
pulous about " mint, anise and cummin :" but how have the great to-
pics been met? I rejoice, however, that it will go to the public, as it
was spoken, and that the public will read and judge.

I have heard a hint that the gentleman is about to disprove tlie fact
of the anathema or bishop's curse by introducing Sterne, turning into
ridicule the curses pronounced centuries before he was born. The
humor of Sterne found the reality of the cur.se, or he would not have
laughed at it.

The gentleman has now to close t'.ie d(l)atc. The usages of discus-
sion forbid the introduction of new matter in the last speech. Ho will
probably again tfdl you of ('atbolie devotion to Ainerican liberty, and
of his brollii-r soldiers, that fmight in the Kevolulionary war. For, by
such argtimenis he has generally met the decrees ofcouncils, the bulls
of popes, the records of history, and the precepts of the aposlliji. IJut
before the devotion of a few lloman Catholic soldiers to the cause of
the Revolution can be accepted as proof of Roman ("atludic lovo of
either civil or religious liberty, it inusl be asrertaimd, wluibrr the
hatred of Protexlanl Kngland, rather than the love of rational liberty,
instigated those soldiers that served during that war. For my part, I

352 DEBATE ON THE

incline to the opinion that the hatred of England was at least as strong
an impulse to their efforts as the love of liberty. — But — [Time ex-
pired.]

THvclve o'clock, M.
Bishop Purcell rises —

My friends, in order to meet one of the last allegations of the gen-
tleman, namely, that the Catholic church has a law, making Protest-
ant children illegitimate ; I know of no law to that effect, which ad-
mits of the least practical difficulty; but I will tell you where it i3
still in force, and imposes civil disabilities and disqualifications of the
most odious character. It is in a Protestant country. And, here, let
me say, once for all, that I judge too highly of the character of Scots-
men and Englishmen, and know too well that they detest these hiW3
as much as 1 do, to mean anything disrespectful to them, when I al-
lude to the acts of the British government, or the malpractices of in-
dividuals. Scotland has done much for science. Eagle-like she has
soared to its sunniest heights. May she battle, like the Bruce, by the
side of O'Connell, for human rights. But, facts are facts. Now,
a Unitarian minister, Mr. Dewey, whom I have already quoted, says:

" The dissenters aie demanding to be nlicved from their burdens. I'etitions
to parliament, either for an entire abolition of the union between cliiirch and
state, or for an essential modification of that union, have, it is well known, be-
come matters of almost every day occurrence. There is a determination on this
point, which must at length succeed; and I must say, indeed, from my own im-
pressions about the ftarc/s/iips of the case, that if the dissenters — if those whose con-
sciences and properly and personal respectahilily are alike invaded by the church
establishment, will not cause their voice, and the voice of justice to be heard, they

deserve to be oppressed If the church endowments were a bequest for the

benefit of any particular class of christians, it was for the Catholics. The lar-
gest portion of them were actually Catholic endowments. If it is proper that
they should be diverted from that original design at all, it ought at least to be

done in aid and furtherance of the whole religion of the countr}- No man

I think, can travel through this countrj- without knovving that the dissenters are
frequently treated in a manner amounting to absolute indignity! As to the in-
juslice of the system, it is well known. The dissenter is excluded from the uni-
versities. In fact, he can neither be born, nor ba|)tized, nor married, nor buried,
but under the opprobrium of the law. That is to say, there can be no legal regis-
tration of his birth; his baptismal certificate does not entitle him to legal marriage:
and he can reteive neither marriage, nor burial from the hands of his own pastor.

And now what is alleged in defence of this state of things? No principle or
pretence of justice that I have ever heard, but only the principle of expedi-
ency. It is said that monopoly and exclusion here are necessary. It is said that
religion cannot be supported in dignity and honor, without ample endowments
and rich benefices." Vol. I. p. 143.

Such is the state of England in the enlightened nineteenth century,
and a pretty state it certainly is ! Thus, on incontrovertible testimony,
that of the nation at large, are monopoly and exclusion necessary to the
support of a system which Mr. Campbell has solemnly declared to bo
the only bulwark of the Protestant religion ! !

My friends, for those tremendous curses which you have heard, and
at which you have laughed so heartily ! I must spoil or heighten the
fun by telling you that they are not Catholic curses, nor yet Protes-
tant curses exactly, but that they are the jeu d'esprit of a Protestant
minister, Lawrence Sterne, all found in this book (exhibiting it,)
which I have had brought me, this moment, from a book store, written
by that worthy parson himself, and one of the most grossly obscerie
in the English language ! ! Verily, my opponent has given me, in this
finale, a measure of revenge which I would not, myself, have asked

R05IA?f CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 353

for. And he had these curses, stowed away for years, on that bit of
soiled paper, to be produced as the coup de grace to the Catholics, at
the close of this debate. I saw these curses, when some waggish
wight had them published, in Philadelphia ; and the moment he men-
tioned them, I wrote on my notes, ♦' Sterne," " Tristram Shandy," and
sent for the book ! Dr. Slop cuts his finger, untying a certain case of
instruments : he whistles Lillebulero, to ease the pain ; and Uncle
Toby, or his nephew, with Cervantic gravity, swears by Juno's beard
to the genuineness of these curses, and hands them to Dr. Slop, to
read by way of an anodyne ! But, seriously, in the 28th chapter of
Deuteronomy, are to be found curses, as awful as these here pro-
nounced. Must we mock God that inspired, or the scripture that re-
cords them] Now the bible itself is turned into ridicule by the gentleman.
Christian charity and common sense, truth and justice, require im-
peratively, that no one should be condemned without a hearing, or
charged with holding sentiments which he disavows. Here is the
fullest, the clearest, the most unequivocal disavowal, of the doctrine
of the pope's deposing power. The Catholics do not believe that he
has any such power. We would be among the first to oppose him in
its exercise ; and we would be neither heretics nor bad Catholics; and
we each of us bishops swear the very words of the oath : "Fersequar
et impugnabo, salvo nuo ordinc^'' in the sense specified, which is the
only true sense, the assumption of any such power by the pope, or the
pope for the assumption of any such power. For ten centuries this

POWER WAS NEVER CLAIMED BY ANY POPE. 1t CAN, THEREFORE, BE NO

PART OF Catholic doctrine. It has not gained one foot of land

FOR THE POPE. Jt IS NOT ANY WHERE BELIEVED, OR ACTED UPON, Ilf

THE Catholic church. Nor can it be, at this late day, estab-
lished, IF ANY man COULD BE FOUND MAD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE AT-
TEMPT. Let these go before the American people, as the real princi-
ples of Catholics concerning the power of the pope. And if we must
pronounce a judgment on the past, let it be remembered, that when
the pope did use this power, it was when appealed to as a common
father, and in favor of tiic oppressed ! We should go back, in spirit,
to former times, when we undertake to judge them. We should un-
derstand the condition of society at the period ; we should know the
circumstances, general and particular, which controlled or influenced
the great events recorded in history. We should not quarrel with our
ancestors, because they did not possess knowledge which we possess;
nor flatter ourselves that we are vastly their betters, because of theso
adventitious advantages ; while they manifestly surpass us in others
of greater value, to the Christian, the moralist, the artist. They had
the substance of good things : we seem to be content with the shadow
of them. The very efforts now made by fanatical preachers, and pe-
titioners to congress, to proscribe Roman C'atholics, clearly show that
we are far behind ihem in the regard for truth, and the exercise of
toleration. I^et it never be forgotten, what the sect was, tf what reli-
gion the men were, who firnl petitioned congreii.i, in thin free mtintry, to
rei'rict, or, to use a more appropriate word, to abolith liberty of conscience.,
and Inform n Christian parti/ in politics. They were not Roman Catholics.
The Hull ofCJrpgory XVI. censures bad books. He condemns not
the liberty, but the licentiousness of th<' press. And is he not right!
Can there be a greater corrupter of morals than bad books 1 Dia not
2 K 2 45

3.-) 1

DKH.VTK 0.\ THK

St. Paul burn bad books to llic amount of 5000 pieces of silver, ag wo
read in Acts xix. 191 Is it not actionable in Knjrland and the United
States to publish books against the existence of (Jod? You see what
one-sided views, some would be grcrat men can take, of tlie doings of
popes. The gentleman blew up the bible, and all the mysteries of
Christianity, and himself with them, when he tried to blast the rock
of Peter; is it wonderful that he should implicate St. Paul, and Eng-
lish and American common and statute law, when he would blow up
tiie good old i)ope, Gregory XVI. I '^^

In a rescript addressed by his holiness Pius VII, to tha vicars apos-
tolic of Great Britain, dated the 8lh of April, 1820, his holiness ex-
horts them to take care that

" The faithful abslKin from irafling- the wirkcd bool<s in which in these calam-
itous times, our religion is assailed from all sides; and thai they should be strenRth-
ened in taith and good ^vorks, by the reading of pious books, and particularly th«
Holy scriptures, in editions approved by the rhurrh— you preceding them by word
and example." "Ut a perversorum libroruin lectione,quibu»,calamitosissiniis hisce
temporibussancta nostra Religio undique impetitur, abstineant; ut piorum libro-
rum, pra-sertimscripturarum sacrarum lectione, in editionibus ab Ecclesia appro-
batis in fide et in boms opcribus, vobis verbo et cxemplopncuntibus.coiiforten-
tur."

' In the

The Index is a book of which I have never had a copy ; and'no'Ca-
tholic, that I know of, in the United States, has ever seen it. The
law of nature is as much of an " Index" as that volume, for it forbids
us to read bad books which the index-finger of conscience points to
ns as evil, with the word — Beware ! The gentleman greatly mis-
takes the Catholic doctrine, the morals of Catholics, the politics, the
intellects of Catholics. I trust, as he becomes more enlightened, he
will think better of them. I am sure this audience, and the public,
will. All see by the crowds of Catholics thronging, to the very last
moment, to this debate, how free and fearless of the investigation of
their faith they are, and feel. They have had the full benefit of all
the gentleman's sophistry and extracts ; and the effect is infinitely
better for Catholicism than any sermon that I, or any Catholic bishop
in the union, has ever preached to them. They see that, with all the
gentleman's learning and talents, he has utterly failed to establish a
single one of his propositions. Hence they will be more attached to
their faith than ever.

As to the deposing power, I may recall to your recollection the fact
that five great universities of Europe were consulted by William Pitt,
and they all, in the most solemn language, reprobated such a doctrine.
Their decisions may appear in an appendix, if we publish one. I
have not time to read them now. In Millner's End of controversy,
and Charles Butler's memoirs of English, Irish and Scottish Catholica,
■we'll find these matters fairly stated and discussed.

There is more liberty in Rome than the gentleman gives it credit
for. There is a Protestant church, even in Rome, where service is
regularly performed according to the Episcopalian rite. The Jews
are not any where more charitably treated, than in the eternal city.
Last year, they presented a splendid copy of the Holy Bible, or some
other sacred book, to the pope, as a token of their gratitude.

The gentleman calls the system of tithes a dying system. It has

boma:^ catholic religion. 355

indeed been a dying system. It has slain its thousands, and made
the condition of the living worse than that of the dead.

Judge Hall, of this place, has treated the question discussed, more
learnedly and eloquently than my worthy opponent or myself. I Avill
give his remarks the place to which they are so well entitled for
candor and liberality.

"This question has become so important in the United States, that it is time to
begin to inquire into its bearing.% and to know whether the public are really io-
tereited in the excitenietit-which has been gotten up with unusual industry, and
has been kept alive with a pertinacity that has seldom been equaled. For seve-
ral years past the religious protestant papers of our country, with but few ex-
ceptions, have teeniecT with virulent attacks against the Catholics, and cspeciall^T
with paragraphs charging them substantially with designs hostile to our free in-^
ititutions, and with a systematic oppo«Ltion to the spread of all free inquiry and
liberal knowledge. These are grave charges, involving consequences of serious
import, and sucn as should not be believed or disbelieved upon mere rumor, or
permitted to rest upon any vague hypothesis; because they are of a nature which
renders theai susceptible of proof The spirit of our institutions requires that
these questions should be thus examined. We profess to guaranty to every in-
habitant of our country, certain rights, in the enjoyment of which he shall not
be molested, except through the instrumentality of a process of law which is
clearly indicated. Life, liberty, property, reputation, are thus guarded — and
equally sacred is the right secured to every man, to ' worship God according
to the' dictates of his own conscience."

But it is iille to talk of these inestimable right*, as having any efficacious ex-
istence, if the various checks and sanctions, thrown around them by our consti-
tution and laws, may be evaded, and a lawless majority, with a high hand, ravish
them by force from a few individuals who may be eflectually outlawed by a per-
ycrted public ojiinion, produced by calumny and clamor, it is worse than idle,
it is wicked, to talk of liberty, while a majority, having no other right than that
of the strongest, persist in bfajting the character of uiioflending individuals by
calumny, and in oppressing them by direct violence upon their persons and
property, not only without evidence of their delin<iuency, but against evidence;
not only without law, but in violation of law — and merely because they belong
to an unpopular denoiniiiation.

The very fact that the Roman Catholics nio, and can be with imi)unity, thu*
trampled upon, in a country like ours, affords in itself the iiidst conclusive
evidence of the groundlessness of the fears, which are entertained by some
respecting them. Without the power to protect iheniM-lves, in the enjoyment
of the ordinary rightn of ritiiecuhiii, and with a current of prejudice s< tting so
•trongly agaiiiit tlnin, thai ihey find safity only in bending mtikly to the storm,
how idle, how puerile, how disingenuous il it, to rave us some have done, of the
dmnrer of Catholic inllucnre!

We repeat that this is a (question which mudt rest upon testiiiiony. The
American people arc too intelligent, toojust, too mngnanimoiM, to sndcr the tem-
porary delusion by which so many hiive been blinder!, to settle doivn into a per-
manent national preju<lirc, and to opjireis one christian drnoiiiimHioii at the
bidding of others without some jiroof, or some ri-asonalde arpumtiit.

We have not yet seen any eviileiire in the various publimtioni that have
reached ui. of any unfairiHM on the part of the Catholirs, in the piopngntion
of their religious iloi trines. If they are active, prrsivering, and ingenious, in
their ittrmnti to gain converts, and if they are successful in securing (he coun-
trnanrr anil support of those who mniiitHin the same form of belief In other
coiinlrirs. these we iiniigiiir, are tlie |i'(;iliiii«te proofs of christian n »l and sin-
cerity. Ill rel.ilion to proleslniil lerts, Ihey are certainly «o rstiinnted ; and wo
are yet to l«srn. why the ordinarv lawt i)( evidriicr are to be set aaide in refer-
ence to this denomination, and why the iiii«>ionnry spirit which i« «o pruiirwor-
thy in others, should he ihought so wirkrd niul to danceroiis in (lirni.

Let ui inquire iato this mallrr calmly. Why is it that Ihr Cntliolics are pur-
•lied with siirh pertinacity, with such viiidiclivrnrs*, «ith such nilhlin iiiale\o-
lencr? Whrr.innot llmr |>cculiar opinions be opposed by Brtciiiiu iil, by per-
■iiaiiuii, by reiuonMrarice, as one chritlian seel should oppose f »<h other? »\ «
•peak kindly of the Jew, and even of the hrotbcn; there arc those that lo\e a

856 DEBATE ON TU£

Negro or a Cherokee even better than their omi flesh and blood ; but a Catholic
if an abomination, for whom there is no taw, no charity, no bond of christian
fraternity.

These" reflections rise naturally out of the recent proceedings in relation to
the Roman Cathblics. A nunnery has been deinolisheil by an infuriated mob —
a small conimunity of refined and unprofectetl feiuales, lawfully and usefully en-
gaged in the tuition of children, whose parents have voluntarily committed them
to their care, have been driven from their home — yet the perpetrators have es-
caped punishment, and the act, if not openly excused, is winked at, by protestant
christians. The outrage was public, extensive, and undeniable; and a most re-
spectable committee, who investigated all the fart*, have shown tliat it was un-
provoked — a mere wanton ebullition of savage malignity. Yet the sympathies
of a large portion of the protestant conimunit\ arc untouched.

[s another instance required, of tiie pervading ch.Tracter of this prejudice?
How common has been the expedient, employed by missionaries Ironi the west,
in the eastern states, of raising money for education or for rtlig;on upon the al-
legation that it was necessary to |)revent the ascendency of the catholics. How
o''ten has it been asserted, throughout the last ten years, that this was the chosen
field on which tlie papists had erected their standard, and where tiie battle must
be fought for civil and religious liberty; What t;iles of horror have been poured
into the ears of the confiding children of the pilgrims — of young men emigrat-
ing to the west, marrying catholic ladies, and coUapsiiig without a struggle into
the arms ofRomanisiii — of splendid edilices undermined by profound dungeons,
prepared for the reception of heretic republicans — of boxt-s of fiiearms secretly
transported into hidden receptacles, in tlie very bosoms of our lluurishing cities,
of vast and widely ramified European ronspiracits by which Irish catholics are
suddenlv converted into lovers of monarch) , and obcditnt instruments of kings!

A prejudice so indomitable and so blind, could not f;iil, in an ingenious and en^
tcrprising land like ours, to be made the subject of pecuniary sptculation; accord-
ingly we find such works as the 'Master Key to Popery,' 'Secrets of I'emale
Convents,' and ' Six Months in a Convent,' manufactured with a distinct view
to makinj^ a profit out of this diseased state of the public mind. The abuse of
the catholics therefore is not merely matter of ])aity rancor, but, is a regular
trade, and the compilation of anti-catholic books of the character alluded to, has
become a part of the regular industry of the country, as much as tlie making of
nutmegs, or the construction of clocks.

Philosophy sanctions the belief, that power held by any set of niefl without
restraint or competition, is liable to abuse; and history leaches the humiliating
fact tliat power thus held has always been abused. To inquire who has been
the greatest aggressor against the rights of luiaian nature, when all who have
been tempted have evinced a common propensity to tiaiiiple upon the laws of
justice and benevolence, would be an unprofitable procedure. The reformers
punished heresy by death as well as the catholics; and the murders perpetrated
Dy intolerance, in the reign of F.li/.abeth, were not less atrocious than those
which occurred under ' the bloody Mary.' We might even come nearer home,
and point to colonies on our own continent, planted by men professing to luive
fled from religious persecution, who not only excluded from all civil and politi-
cal rights those \vho were separated from them by only slight sliades of religi-
ous belief, but persecuted many even to death, for heicy and witchcraft. Yet
these things are not taken into the calculation, and the catholics are assumed,
without examin.-ition, to be exclusively and especially prone to the sins of op-
pression and cruelty.

The french catholics, at a very early period, commenced a system of niissiong
for the conversion of the Indians, and were remarkably successful in gaining
converts, and conciliating the confidence and affections ol' the tribes. Wliilc tie
Pequods and other northern tribes were becoming exterminated, or sold into
slavery, the more fortunate savage of the Mississippi was listf nin^ to the piouu
counsels of the catholic missionary. — This is another fact, which deserves to be
remembered, and which should be weighed in the examination of the teiliniony.
It shews that the catholic appetite for cruelty is not quite so keen as is usually
imagined, and that they exercised, of choice, an expainive benevolence, at a peri-
od when protestant", similarly situated, were blood-thirsty and rapacious.

Advancin" a little further in point of time, we find a number of colonies ad-
vancing rapidly towards prosperity, on our Atlantic sea board. In point ofciiil

EOMAN CATHOLIC REUGION. 357

EfDrernmcnt Ihey were somewhat detached, each raakiog' iUi own municipal
laws, and there being in each a predoniinance of the inOueuee of one religious
denomination. We might therefore expect to see the political bias of each sect
carried out into practice, and it is curious to examine how far such was the fact.
It is the more curious, because the writers and orators of one branch of this
family of republics, are in the habit of attributing to theirown fathers, the prin-
ciples of religious and political toleration, which became established throughout
the whole, and are now the boast and pride of our nation. The impartial record
of history atlbrds on this subject a proof alike honorable to all, but which re-
bukes alike the sectional or sectarian vanity of each. New-England was settled
by English puritans. New- York by Dutch protestants, Pennsylvania by Quakers,
Maryland by Catholics, V'irginia by the Episcopalian adherents of the Stuarts,
and South Carolina by a mingled population of roundheads and cavaliers from
England, and of Erench huguenots — yet the same broad foundations of civil and
political liberty were laid smiultancou'ly in them all, and the same spirit of re-
sistance animated each community, when the oppressions of the mother country
became intolerable. Religious intolerance prevailed in earlv times only in the
eastern colonies, but the witchcraft superstition, though most strongly developed
there, pervaded some other portions of the new settlements. We shall not ampli-
fy our remarks on this topic; it is enough to say, that if the love of monarchy
was a component principle of the catholic faith, it was not developed in our
country when a fair opportunity was offered for its exercise ; and that in the glo-
rious struggle for liberty, for civil and religious emancipation — when our fathers
arrayed themselves in defence of the sacred jirinciples involving the whole broad
ground of contest between liberty and despotiiin, the catholic and the protestant
itood side by side on the battle tield, and in the council, and pledged to their
common country, with equal devotedness, their lives, their fortunes, and theirsa-
cred honor. Nor should it be forgotten, that in a conllict thus peculiarly mark-
ed, !i catholic king was our ally, when the most powerful of protestant govern-
ments »vas our emiiiy."

Now, my friends and fellow citizens, let me have permission to
close this debate by the ianoruage of the illustrious VVashingrton,
in his answer to tiie patriotic address of the U. S. Catholics. I dis-
claim all unkind fi'cliiiirs towards Mr. Cainphel! or any of his friends,
and acknowled^.' my frratitude to him lor pncibiiiirr me to ])lac'o my
relifjion, iji its proper light, liefore the public. I also beg leave res-
pectfully to tender lo this audience my thanks for the dignity of their
deportment during this debate. Instead of quarreling about religion
we ought to bo enjfaijed in our vocation of love anil peace, as its
faithful ministers, and sincere jirofessorH. We have all, a great deal
to do to improve the morals of the age, to elevate the standard of
literature, to progtiote by such means as all christians approve, the
welfare of our common country, and to obtain for our green slate, the fer-
tile and flourishin'j, Ohio, a liistinguishcd rank for knowledge, virtue
and patriotism, among her fdder and her younger sisters in this fair
republic. These are legitimate pursuits, alike pleasing to God, and
useful lo man. 'I'he world is large enough for us all. Some can, in
the Abraham and Lot way of settling their dinicullicH, feed their
flocks in one field, and some in another; and, as Jose|)ii said to his
brethren going home lo their father, from Egypt, as we art; going to
one heavenly Kalher, " Hce that ye fall not out by the way." (lieads
from Washington's lellcr as follows:)

To THE KoMA.N CATIIOI.ItS I.N THK UMTKD STATES OK AmEHICA.
Ocntleiiien — While I now r<reivc with iiiiirh siitisfartion your congraiiilHtioni
on my being rnllrd by on uiinniiiiou* vote, to the firat station in my country, I
cannot but duly notice your politenon, in offering iin npology for the iiniivoidabia
delny . A« that tlelny Irat given you an opportunity of reBli/.ing, in*lenil ot antici-
pating, the benefits of the general govrrninent, you tvill du me the justice to be-
ieve, that your teilimony of the increase of th* public prosperity, «QhaDCcs tha

358 DEBATE ON THE

pleasure, which I shonid otherwise have experienced from your affectionate ad«
dress.

I feel that my conduct, in war and in peace, has met with more general appro-
bation than could have reasonably been expected; and I find myself disposed to
consider that fortunate circumstance, in a great degree, resulting from the able
support, and extraordinary candor, of my fellow-citizens of all denominations.

The pi-ospect of national prosperity now before us, is truly animating, and
ought to excite the exertions of all good men, to establish and secure the happi-
ness of their country, in the permanent duration of its freedom and indepen-
dence. America, under the smiles of divine providence, the protection of
a eood government, and the cultivation of manners, morals, and piety, cannot
fail of attaining an uncommon degree of eminence in literature, commerce, agri-
culture, improvements at home, and respectability abroad.

As mankind become more liberal, they will be more apt to allow, that aW tho3e
■who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community, are equally entitled
to the protection ^ civil government. I hope ever to see America among the
foremost nations in examples of justice and liberality. And I presume that your
fellow citizens will notjbrget the patriotic part which you took in the accom-
;plishment of their revolution, and the establishment oj" their government, or the
important assistance which they received from a nation in which the Roman
Catholic faith is professed.

I thank you, gentlemen, for your kind concern for roe. While my life and
my health shall continue, in whatever situation I may be, it shall be my con-
stant endeavor to justify the favorable sentiments which you are pleased to
express of my conduct. And may the members of your society in America, ani-
mated alone by the pure spirit of Christianity, and still conducting themselves as
the faithful subjects of our government, enjoy every temporal and spiritual felicitjr.

GEORGE WASHINGTON.
March, 1790.

[end of the debate.]

The following are the extracts referred to on page 224 : —

English Divines.
" Confession to apriest, the minister of pardon and reconciliation, the curatt
ofsouls, and the guide oJ" consciences, is of so great use and benefit, to all that
are heavy laden with their sins, that they who carelessly "and causelessly neglect
it, are neither lovers of the peace of consciences, nor careful for the advantage
of their souls." (Bp. Jer. Taylor, of the doctrine and practice of repentance,
chap. X. sec. 4.)" For the publication of our sins to the minister of holy things,

TOUTOv IX" fiv /.oyov, Sv IX" '. imSliiif tSiv ra>/iXTtxwv trxitnv, said Jiosil, (Regul.

Brev. 229,) is just like the manifestation of the diseases of our body to the phys-
ician for God hath appointed them, as spiritual physicians." (Taylor, ut supra.)
P. S. It has startled many an honest independent, who by cliance has got hold
qfanoriginalworkqf sturdy John Calvin, or Martin Luther, when in some well-
prized " commentarie ;" some latent passage of " TTie Institutions," he has en-
countered sly admissions, well guarded hy cautious ' ifs,' and left to their 0W7i
fate without defence or apology, yet savoring much of ancient heresy. .And
in the honesty of his ignorance, he has exclaimed, as he returned the dusty
volume to its shelf, — Great Calvin! much learning hath made thee mad. The bi-
ble, and the bible alone, is the religion of Protestants. Where have been Protes-
tants as consistent as the Covenanters and the Puritans? Assigning to Rome
the whole body of christian testimony, experience, and wisdom; outspreading,
in one hand, the broad banner of private opinion; coolly hanging and burning
tkeir brother-democrats with the other; extolling Protestantism as the religion

of the enlightened; fairly proving it the religion of the ignorant And who are

they that the bigoted " no bigot" points at, " Romanists," " Pnpishers," " near
neighbors to the Babylon of abominations!" They are men who have devoted
their lives to the study of the legitimate authorities of doctrine and rite."

ROMA>' CATHOLIC RELIGION.

359

This was exhibited and the names read at the close of debate on
apostolic succession;

Tabular view of the order of the Episcopal succession in the prominent (Gen-
tile) Diocese* mentioned by Eusebius.

Bishops of Rome.

Peter and Paul, according^ to Eusebius, died as martyrs at Rome; after thes«
followed,

1 Linus,

2 Anencletus,

3 Clement,

4 Euarestus,

5 Alexander,

9 Pius,

10 AnicetuSj

11 Soter,

12 Eleutherus,

13 Victor,

6 XystusorSixtus,14 Zenhyrinus,

7 Telesphorus, 15 Callislhus,

16 Urbanus,

17 Pontianus,

18 Anteros,

19 Fabianus,

20 Cornelius,

21 Lucius,

22 Stephanus,

23 Xystus orSiitus ii,

24 Diouysius,

25 Felix,

26 Eutychiaiius,

27 Caius,

28 Marcellinus,

29 Milliades.

Bishops of Antioch.
6 Theophilus, 11 Zebinas,

Maxi

minus.

8 Serapion,

9 Asclepiades,
10 Philetus,

12 Babylas,

13 F'abius,

14 Demetrianus,

15 Paul of Samosata

16 Domnus,

17 Tima»us,

18 Cyrillus,

19 Tyrannus,

8 Hyginus,

1 Evodius,

2 Ignatius,

3 Heron,

4 Cornelius,

5 Eros,

fcsHops OF Alexandria.
The evangelist Mark, esTablished the church there, and after him came,

1 Annianus, ' ~

2 Avilius,

3 Cerdo,

4 Primus,

5 Justus,

6 Eunienes,

7 Marcus,

8 Celadion,

9 .^rrippinus,
10 Julianus,

11 Demetrius,

12 Heraclas,

13 Dionysius,

14 Maximus,

15 Theonas,

16 Peter,

17 Achillas,

18 Alexander,

Bishops of Laodicea.
Thelymedres, Socrates, Anatolius, Theodotus,

Heliodorus, Eusebius of Alexandria, Stephen,

Bishops of Cesarea.
Theopbilas Domnus, Agapius, Eusebius.

Theoctistus, Theotecnus,

HaTin? revised some three hundred pages of proof o( this debate, before I
left Cincinnati for New Orleans, on the 2nd of March, 1837, I am willing to
consider and approve the report, as being substantially correct. I have the ut-
most confidence in the honor and honesty of the publishers, Messrs. J. A. James
& Co., that the balance of the discussion will be fairly presented to the public.

+ JOHN B. PURCELL, Bishop of Cincinnati.

alf

aWnsr read all the proofs of this discusHJon, I cortify, that the reader has,
^' :jinfially, a* correctly an under all the cireuniHt;in( fs could hav(> been'
rted, a fair rcprenentation of the whole discussion.

I^RCII 7, \H\ri. A. CAMniKLL.

ERRATA.

The following rrrord rfiraprd the proof render in the first edition, but were
afterwards corrected in the plates, and will not appear in any of the following
editions.

Page 32. 6th line from bottom, for "came BccrtUy forward," read " cnm«
Pnlilirly forward."
" 49. 2.1(1 line from top, for " Protestants have nil concealed," read " Protes-
tants have nil conrrded."
" 72. 18th line from bottom, for " enlightened," read " unenlightened."
" 73. 5th line from bottom, for " (Ae lervant Malchtis," read " drew the

sword and."
" 178. 6th line from top, for" iinim/)or/on/," read" »mfOr/an<."

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