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 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA 
 AT LOS ANGELES
 
 PIRCELL, John Baptist, R. C. archbishop. 
 Iin Mallow. County Cork. Ireland. 26 Feb., 1800 • 
 ;ni Brown county, Ohio, 4 July. 1883. lie emi- 
 [iteil to the United States in 'l818. and entered 
 hbury college. Baltimore, where he taught. In 
 10 he was admitted to Mount St. Mary's. Em- 
 ttsburg,^^ nd, after receiying minor orders, fin- 
 ed his ■ . 'ological course in the Sulpitian col- 
 e, Paris, ile was ordained a priest in the cathe- 
 il of Notre Dame in 1826. and in 1827 was ap- 
 nted professor of philosophy in St. MaiT's col- 
 e, becoming president in 1828. The progress 
 t this institution made during his presidency 
 racted the notice of the Amei'ican hierarchy 
 I he was nominated bishop of Cincinnati lie 
 : consecrated on IS Oct., 1833. At the time of 
 appomtment there was only one small frame 
 uau Catholic church in the city, and not more 
 n K; 111 the diocese, while the church property 
 ■ yalued at about $12,000. He founded acade- 
 iti(l schools, organized German congrega- 
 •id built aconyent for the Ursulines. The 
 Lil*er of Koman Catholics had increased from > 
 JO to 70,000 in 1846, with 70 churches and 73 j 
 In 1847 the diocese of Cleyeland was 
 •ut of that of Cincinnati, and placed under i 
 1 -diet ion of another prelate at his request. 
 ~ made an archbishop in 1850, with four 
 II bishops attached to his see, and being 
 ■• ni lxr,i, he received the pallium from the 
 wn hands. He at once set about found- I 
 it was to be one of the chief theological 
 :es of the country, .^b,unt St. Mary's of the 
 Me i.rcsidcd over his first provincial coun- 
 ■^0.), and held a second in l8o8. It wa- 
 "le to meet tlu; wants of the new congre- 
 Hith the resources at hand, and this led 
 tinancial embarra.ssments that shadowed 
 Mg years of the archbishop's life. In 186S 
 i'.ilion of new sees had limilcd his diocese 
 lat |.art of Oliio south of latitude 40" 41' but 
 8tili contained nearly 140.000 Koman Ca'tho- 
 IM iNOi* he att.'iided the Vatican council, 
 ve in its deliberations, nn.l. although he 
 -■1 the declaration of the infallibiiifv of the 
 ,h<- at once subsf-ribed to the doctrine on its 
 It ion. Ills golden jubilee was celebrated in 
 
 
 
 \ 
 
 V 
 
 1876 with great splendor. A crisis in his i 
 
 ^mci,,k.s on whieh business slHuddlM.; 
 vyien the crash came. K.hvard i'linvll d 
 "'l^''" l..;ar . Itwasdiseoveredthat tl e n 
 .•ss reaeiwd ,H,,rly ^-l.OOO.OO,,. T ie ,1 
 "ancialo,;erationstlmtledtoitNN si ■ 
 "'\''''''l'''.'V'"'''<>^''"'HHH,,^htof..ha .n,. I 
 b sl.op „, h disl,on..sty or evil in/eM^ 
 Hi.V ol a bishop k„,,wn as the "cailir.lr 
 ;""""'"■;. I" .^I.OOf. or .^.-i.OOO a y ., , 
 
 .-"y-hvey..,.rs,. bishop b..for,i^ :,';..; I 
 \<>ilecl on to a.rept any pari olil,,. .„,„ 
 
 f;;;;''\*^.'«' '•''<• '''',rnirig|.,nd i.v U. ;. 
 
 P"<';dw,h, he whole. His pn,.s-,s gav ' mm 
 "• ''is golden jubii,.,.: ,|„. ,',„,, ,|,.a ,. ' 
 """.•"A^'.'iianlabi.iMsliiMlions. He, b' vd ■ 
 
 w >ui<i implv sonic repro..„.|.. jf,. „.«s ,.iv,.„ 
 
 "•I.I" or instead. aiKl Ivtired |., ,. l" i s, i ' 
 
 ;;''"".'<y. AthisdealhllMM.un>l..ro I ,,, , 
 
 ^^n,lh.Mlioeesethatli.originallv;:; 
 lan lialfa million. (I,,. pri..sis nun, I,..,-,..! (Hi 
 
 1 ".:';;' drf- -^-'"-'-piMr.:,;-;;',;;^' 
 
 ascwn .|,,\s discussion with Alexander C-im 
 '"''•.•" «;np,,l,|ic|y defended (lini'ii,:' 
 
 ;;;;■';';" onitor. Moh. discussio;,' ;' • ; 
 
 md widely circiilatcl: i|,c latter as - The 
 Ie igy and Free Thought " (1870). His her 
 "♦"•ns were "J.cctures an.l Pastoral Jet 
 'Diocesan Sliiinf,.. \,., i t. '" ^i^\
 
 A DEBATE *-- 
 
 *^ ON THE 
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION: 
 
 HELD IN THE SYCAMORE-STREET MEETING HOUSE, CINCINNATI, 
 FROM THE 13th TO THE 2181 OF JANUARY (SUN- 
 DAYS EXCEPTED,) INCLUSIVE, 1837, 
 
 BETWEEN 
 
 ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, / 
 
 OF BETHANY, VIRGINIA, 
 AND THE 
 
 RT. REV. JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 
 BISHOP OF CINCINNATI. 
 
 TAKEN DOWN BY REPORTERS, AND REVISED BY THE PARTIES. 
 
 "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits : for many false prophet* 
 have gone out into the world." 
 
 " If he will not hear the church, let him be to thee ns the heathen and 
 the publican." — Je8C9 Christ. 
 
 CINCINNATI: 
 STEREOTYPED & PUBLISHED BY J. A. JAMES & Co. 
 
 1837.
 
 ■i. » 
 
 
 ' ■ V. 
 
 *^•^ V.*'- W 
 
 Entered According to Act of Congress, in the year 1837f 
 
 By J. A. JAMES AND CO., 
 
 in the Clerk's Office for the District Court of Ohio. 
 
 We the undersigned, having sold and conveyed to J. A. James and Co., of 
 Cincinnati, for a certain sum per copy, (to be paid by them to us, or to our or- 
 der, and to be appropriated to two public charitable institutions, as agreed on 
 between ourselves,) for all that shall be printed; the exclusive right of printing 
 and publishing the DEBATE on the ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION, held in 
 the Sycamore Street Meeting House, Cincinnati, from the 13th to the 21st. of 
 January 1837, inclusive, between ourselves, and taken down by Reporters, em- 
 ployed by the said J. A. James & Co., and revised, corrected, and approved by 
 U8. And we hereby assert that the edition or editions published by J. A. James 
 & Co., or by their authority, and revised by us, must be considered the only cor- 
 rect and authorized editions of said DEBATE. 
 
 CiNCipnyATi, Feb. Ist. 1837. t JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 
 Bp. Cin. 
 A. CAMPBELL. 
 
 I . ... .. 
 

 
 >- 
 
 < 
 
 DC 
 
 ft 
 
 8 
 
 
 TO THE PUBLIC. 
 
 The Publishers being well aware of the importance of obtain- 
 ing a full and correct report of this discussion, have spared no 
 Of pains nor expense to effect this object. 
 </j They employed two gentlemen well qualified as reporters. 
 
 cs: From the joint notes of these, they furnished each of the 
 
 ~3 parties with a copy of his part of the report for revision, with 
 the express understanding, that nothing should be added or sub- 
 tracted to make their speeches different from what they were 
 
 m when originally delivered. 
 
 CM 
 
 ^ After being thus revised, and before being put in type, the 
 whole report was transcribed, and the speeches of each inter- 
 changed ; and when printed a proof sheet of all was sent to 
 each, for his last corrections. 
 
 Believing, that by this means, the desideratum sought, has 
 «> been obtained, this work, is now commended to an enquiring, 
 u intelligent, and reading community. 
 
 i THE PUBLISHERS. 
 
 < Cincinnati, Fch. 1837. 
 
 4G14ai
 
 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 To introduce the following report to the reader, we lay be- 
 fore him the correspondence of the parties, which immediately- 
 preceded the debate. 
 
 LETTER FROM MR. CAMPBELL. 
 
 Cincinnati, Jan. 11th, 1837. 
 Bishop Purcell — Respected Sir: 
 
 At two o'clock this morning, after a tedious and perilous journey of 
 ten days, I safely arrived in this city. The river having become innaviga- 
 ble in consequence of the ice, I was compelled to leave it and take to the 
 woods, about two hundred miles above. By a zigzag course which car- 
 ried me to Chillicothe and Columbus, sometimes on foot, sometimes on a 
 sleigh, and finally by the mail stage, I accomplished a land tour of two 
 hundred and forty miles, equal to the whole distance from Wheeling to 
 Cincinnati. 
 
 After this my travel's history, I proceed to state, that it was with pleas- 
 ure I received cither from you or some of my friends, a copy of the Daily 
 Gazette, on the 22d ult. intimating your fixed purpose of meeting me in a 
 public discussion of my propositions, or of the points at issue between Ro- 
 man Catholics and Protestants. This, together with your former declara- 
 tions in favor of full and free discussion, is not only in good keeping with 
 the spirit of the age, and the genius of our institutions, but fully indicative 
 of a becoming confidence and sincerity in your own cause. This frank and 
 manly course, permit me to add, greatly heightens my esteem for you. 
 
 Now, sir, that I am on the premises, I take the earliest opportunity of 
 informing you of my arrival, and of requesting you to name the time and 
 place in which it may be most convenient for you to meet mc for the pur- 
 pose of arranging the preliminaries. It has occurred to mc, that it would 
 be useful and commendable to have an authentic copy of our discussion, 
 signed by our own hands, and j)ul)lishcd with our consent ; and that it 
 might have all the authority and credit which wc could give it, it would bo 
 a2 ▼
 
 VI INTHODUCTIOX. 
 
 expedient to sell to some of the publishers in this city, the copyright, and 
 let them employ a stenographer or stenographers to report faithfully the 
 whole matter. 
 
 It will also secure for such a work a more extensive reading, and conse- 
 quently a wider range of usefulness, and I have no doubt, be most accep- 
 table to our feelings, and every way reputable, to devote the profits, or the 
 proceeds of the copyright, to some benevolent institution, on which we 
 may both agree ; or in case of a difierence on a fitting institution, that we 
 select each an object to which we can most conscientiously assign all the 
 profits of such publication. 
 
 In order to these ends, it will be necessary, that we timously arrange all 
 the preliminaries, and as many persons are now in waiting, I trust it may 
 be every way practicable, during the day, to come to a full understanding 
 on the whole premises. 
 
 ' Very respectfully, 
 
 Your ob't. serv'c. ^ 
 
 A. CAMPBELL. 
 
 BISHOP PURCELL'S REPLY. 
 
 CiNciKiTATi, 11th Januart, 1837. 
 
 3j&". Alexander Campbell — My Dear Sir : 
 
 I sincerely sympathise with you on the tediousness and peril of your 
 journey from Bethany to Cincinnati. This is truly a dreadful time to 
 embark on our river, or to traverse our state. The sun's bright face I 
 have not seen for several days ; I hope when the forth-coming discussion 
 is once finished, our minds, like his orb, will be less dimmed by the clouds, 
 and radiate the light and vital warmth without which this world would be 
 a desert waste. 
 
 If it meet your convenience, I shall be happy to meet you, at any time 
 in the morning, or in the afternoon, at the Athenaeum. 
 
 Your proposition respecting the sale of an authentic copy of the discus- 
 sion to a publisher, and the proceeds, all expenses deducted, applied to the 
 benefit of some charitable institution, or institutions, meets my hearty con- 
 currence. And I propose that one half the avails of sale be given to the 
 " Cincinnati Orphan Asylum," and the other half to the « St. Peter's fe- 
 male Orphan Asylum," corner of Third and Plum streets, Cmcinnati. 
 
 With best wishes for your eternal welfare, and that of all those who sin- 
 cerely seek for the truth as it is in Christ Jesus, I remain 
 
 Very respectfully yours, 
 
 t JOHN B. PURGELL, 
 
 Bishop of Cincinnati.
 
 INTRODTJCTION. Vll 
 
 The parties met in the Athenaeum at 2 o'clock, P. M. of Jan. 
 11th., when after some debate on the question, Tflio shall be 
 the respondent ? they finally agreed to the following 
 
 RULES OF DISCUSSION. 
 
 1. We a^ee that the copy -right of the discussion shall be sold to some 
 bookseller, who shall have it taken down by a stenographer, eind that all the 
 avails of the copy-right shall be equally divided between two such public 
 charities as Bishop Purcell and Mr. Campbell shall respectively designate. 
 
 2. That the discussion shall take place in the Sycamore-street meeting 
 bouse ; and it shall continue seven days, exclusive of Sunday, commencing 
 to-day, (Friday, 13th) froni half past 9 o'clock, A. M. to half past 12, and 
 from 3 to 5 P. M., each day. 
 
 3. Mr. Campbell shall open the discussion each session, and Bishop Pur- 
 cell respond. During the morning session the first speech of each shall not 
 exceed an hour, nor the second half an hour. In the afternoon each speaker 
 shall occupy only half an hour. 
 
 4. This discussion shall be under the direction of a board of five modera- 
 tors ; of whom each party shall choose two, and these a fifth : any three of 
 whom shall constitute a quorum. 
 
 6. The duties of the moderators shall be to preserve order in the assem- 
 bly, and to keep the parties to the question. 
 
 t JOHN B. PURCELL, 
 A. CAMPBELL. 
 
 In order to meet, as far as possible, the arrangements entered 
 into for conducting the contemplated debate for seven days, Mr. 
 Campbell, according to agreement, sent to bishop Purcell, on 
 Thursday morning, Jan. 12, the following statement of the 
 
 POINTS AT ISSUE. 
 
 1. The Roman Catholic Institution, sometimes called the 'Holy, Apos- 
 tolic, Catholic, Church,' is not now, nor waa she ever, catholic, apostolic, 
 or holy ; but is a nect in the fhir import of that word, older than any other 
 sect now existing, not the ' Mother and Mistress of all Churches,' but an 
 apostacy from the only true, holy, apostolic, and catholic church of Christ." 
 
 2. Her notion of apostolic succession is without any foundation in the 
 Bible, in reason, or in fact ; an imposition of the most injurious consequences, 
 built upon unscriptural iind anli-srri[)tural traditions, resting wholly upon the 
 opinions of interested and fallible men. 
 
 3. She is not uniform in her faith, or united in her members ; but muta- 
 ble and fallible, as any other sect of philosophy or religion — Jewish, Turk-
 
 Viii INTRODUCTION. 
 
 ish, or Christian — a confederation of sects, under a politico-ecclesiastic 
 
 head. 
 
 4. She is the " Babylon" of John, the « Man of Sin" of Paul, and the Em- 
 pire of the " Youngest Horn" of Daniel's Sea Monster. 
 
 6. Her notions of purgatory, indulgences, auricular confession, remission 
 of sins, transubstantiation, supererogation, &c., essential elements of her sys- 
 tem, are immoral in their tendency, and injurious to the well-being of soci- 
 ety, religious and political. 
 
 6. Notwithstanding her pretensions to have given us the Bible, and faith in 
 it, we are perfectly independent of her for our knowledge of that book, and 
 its evidences of a divine original. 
 
 7. The Roman Catholic religion, if infallible and unsusceptible of reforma- 
 tion, as alleged, is essentially anti-American, being opposed to the genius of 
 all free institutions, and positively subversive of them, opposing the general 
 reading of the scriptures, and the diffusion of useful knowledge among 
 the whole community, so essential to liberty and the permanency of good 
 government, 
 
 A. CAMPBELL. 
 CiwciKiTATi, 12th January, 1837.
 
 DEBATE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 
 
 REPORT. 
 
 The parties met according to appointment, on the 13th January, 1837, at th« 
 Sycamore Street Meeting House, at hall' past nine o'clock, A. M. 
 
 MODERATORS. 
 
 Messrs. Samuel Lewis, THo.-vrAs J. Biggs, William Disney, John Ro- 
 gers AND J. W. Piatt. 
 
 WILLIAM DISNEY, CHAIRMAN. 
 
 Mr. Samuel Lewis, liavingcaJlerl the meeting to order, read the rules of th« 
 Debate, as agreed upon between the parties, and the propositions advanced by 
 Mr. Campbell for discussion. He requested the audience to refrain from any 
 audible signs of anprobation or disajjprobalion, as it would interrupt the debate. 
 
 Mr. Campbell ttien opened the debate as follows : — 
 
 My Christian Friends and Fdlow-Ciiizens — 
 
 I appear before you at this time, by the ffood providence of our 
 Heavenly Father, in defence of the truth, and in explanation of the 
 great redeemir.g, regenerating and ennobling principles of Protestant- 
 ism, as opposed to the claims and pretensions of the Roman Catholic 
 church. I come not here to advocate the particular tenets of any 
 sect, but to defend the great cardinal principles of Protestantism. 
 
 Considerable pains appear to have been taken by the gentleman 
 who i.s my opponent on this occasion, to impress upon the minds of 
 the public the idea that he stands here in the attitude of a defender 
 of Catholicism, and fo represent me as its assailant. I am sorry to 
 say that even some Protestants have contributed to give that color to 
 this debate; for I saw in this morning's (Jazette an article, in which 
 I am represented as conducting a crusade against the Roman Catho- 
 lics. Its editor appears to have his sympathies morbidly enlisted in 
 their cause. He is very sympathetic indeed, in bebnlf of the Roman 
 Catholic religion. Every agony the mother cliurcli feels is a pang 
 to him ; for every groan she heaves he has a bottle full of tears ready 
 to be poured out. 1 will not stop to enquire whether they are politi- 
 cal or religiotis tears. I have to do with the worthy gentleman here, 
 who has represented me ;is having volunteered to come forward with 
 an attar-k upon the Caihojic ciiurcb. 
 
 I need scarcely inforrn that |)nrtinn of my audience, who were pre- 
 sent at the last meeting erf the (College of Teachers in this city, that 
 60 far from its being true that I made an attack in the first instance, 
 
 2 9
 
 10 DEBATK ON THE 
 
 upon the Roman Catliolic church, the gentleman did first assail the 
 Protestants. 
 
 He says in the Gazette of the 19th of Dec. 1836, thatlamabold and 
 wanton challenger; but a word of comment on this document will 
 shew that it is quite the other waj'. 
 
 The issue was made in the first instance in the College of Teach- 
 ers. You will recollect that when Dr. J. I.. Wilson read an oration 
 on the subject of universal education, the gentleman arose, and in that 
 Protestant house, and before a Protestant assembly, directly and pos- 
 itively protested against allowing the book which Protestants claim 
 to contain their religion, to be used in schools. He uttered a tirade 
 against the Protestant modes of teaching, and against the Protestant 
 influence upon the community. This was the origin of the dispute. 
 Had it not been for the assertions made by the gentleman on that oc- 
 casion, we should not have heard one word of a discussion. 
 
 It is true that the propositions just read may present me in the at- 
 titude of what he is pleased to call an assailant of the Roman church. 
 But the question is — how has the controversy originated 1 And let 
 me ask, how is it possible for the gentleman to prove that, because, 
 a year ago, I made some answer to an attack on Protestantism from 
 the state of Illinois, and called for some more reputable antagonist, 
 that on this account he did not assail Protestantism, and that I am 
 the assailant in this case's Does my having been plaintiff' in that 
 case make me necessarily plaintiff' in every other case 1 Does my 
 having told him that I stood prepared to discuss the question at large 
 with any creditable gentleman — [Here Mr. C. was interrupted by the 
 moderators as not speaking to the point.] I submit to the decision 
 of the moderators. I thought it due to myself, that the public should 
 know precisely the attitude in which the gentleman and myself stand 
 in this matter. I stand here as the defender of Protestantism, and 
 not as the assailant of Catholicism. 1 wished to exonerate myself 
 from such an imputation. But as the gentlemen have decided that 
 we proceed at once to the question, let us begin and examine the first 
 proposition. It is as follows : 
 
 "Prop. I. The Roman Catholic Institution, sometimes called the 'Holy, 
 Apostolic, Catholic, Church,' is not now, nor was she ever, catholic, apostolic, or 
 holy ; but is a sect in the fair import of that word, older than any other sect now 
 existing, not the ' Mother and Mistress of all Churches,' but an apostacy from 
 the only true, holy, apostolic, and catholic church of Christ." 
 
 As this is the place and time for logic rather than rhetoric, I will 
 proceed to define the meaning of the important terms contained in 
 this proposition. The subject is the Roman Catholic Institution. 
 This institution, notwithstanding its large pretensions, I affirm, can 
 be proved clearly to be a sect, in the true and proper import of the 
 term. Though she call herself the mother and mistress of all churches, 
 she is, strictly speaking, a sect, and no more than a sect. We now 
 propose to adduce proof to sustain this part of the proposition. 
 
 In the first place, the very term Roman Catholic indicates that she 
 is a sect, and not the ancient, universal and apostolic church, the mo- 
 ther and mistress of all churches. If she be the only universal or 
 Catholic church, why prefix the epithet Roman ] A Roman Catholic 
 church is a contradiction. The word Catholic means universal — the 
 word Roman means something local and particular. What sense or
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. tl 
 
 meaning is there in a particular universal church ? It is awkward on 
 another account. If she pretends to be considered the only true and 
 universal church of Christ among all nations and in all times, why 
 call herself Roman] To say the Roman Catholic church of Ameri- 
 ca, is just as absurd as to say the Philadelphia church of Cincinnati, 
 — the London church of Pittsburgh, — the church of France of the 
 United States. The very terms that she chooses indicates that she 
 cannot be the universal church. 
 
 It will not help the difficulty to call her the Church of Rome. These 
 words indicate a sect and only a sect, as much as the words Roman 
 Catholic. They signify strictly, only the particular congregations 
 meeting in that place. 
 
 The Roman Catholic historians endeavor to reconcile this discre- 
 pancy of terms by saying that, though those particular congregations 
 are meant, in their larger sense the terms are used to designate all 
 those congregations, scattered throughout the world, who are in com- 
 munion with the church of Rome. Thus testifies Du Pin — 
 
 " It is true, that at tlie present time, the name of the church of Rome, is giv- 
 en to the Catliolic church, and that these two terms pass for sjnon} nious. 
 
 "But in antiquity no more was intended by the name of the church of Rome, 
 than the church of the city of Rome, and the popes (bishops) in their subscrip- 
 tions or superscriptions, look simply to the quality of bishops of Rome. The 
 Greek scbisiuatics seem to be the fii-st wlio gave the name of the church of 
 Rome to all the churches of the west, whence the Latins made use of this to dis- 
 tiag^iish the churches which communicated with the church of Rome, from the 
 Greeki who were separated from her communion. From this came the rustoni 
 to g^ivc the name of the church of Rome to the Catholic church. But the other 
 churches did not from this lose their name or tlieir authority." 
 
 I shall hereafter ^ive the day and date of this separation, when she 
 received this sectarian designation and became a sect, in the proper 
 acceptation of that term. It may, perhaps, appear that it was not 
 only unscriptural, but dishonorable ; as opprobrious as ever were the 
 terms Lutheran or Protestant. 
 
 But suppose we call her " Catholic" alone; and her advocates now 
 endeavor to impress the idea that she is no longer to be called " Ro- 
 man Catholic," but Catholic, tliis term ecjually proves her a sect; for 
 in the New Testament and primitive antiquity there is no such de- 
 signation. It is simply the church of Christ. It is one thing for us 
 to choose a name for ourselves, aiul another to have one chosen for us 
 by our enemies. Societies, like persons, are passive in receiving 
 their names. It is with churches as it is with individuals; they may 
 not wear the name they prefer. She wishes now to be called no lon- 
 ger Roman Catholic, but (Catholic. Slie repudiates the appellation 
 of Roman; and claims to be the only Catholic church tliat ever was, 
 and is, and ever more shall be. But we cannot allow her to assume 
 it; and we dare not, in truth, bestow it, for she is not catholic. But, 
 as there is no church known in thc! New Testament by tliat nam(>, 
 could we 80 designate her, still she would t)e a sect. 
 
 But let me ask, what is the church of Rome of the nineteenth cen- 
 tury, or rather, what is the present Roman (Catholic institution 1 
 Permit me here to say, most emphatically, that I have not the slight- 
 est disposition to use terms of opprobrium in speaking of this church ; 
 or of the worthy gentleman who is opposed to me in this debute. I 
 do not wish or int<;tid to use the slightest expression which could be 
 construed into an unfriendly tone of Batirc, irony or invective toward-!
 
 12 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the respectable gentleman, or towards }ii3 cliurch. I shall speak 
 freely of her pretensions to be the only true church, &c. but I shall 
 observe a scrupulous respect in all my languatre towards the presen 
 representatives of the Catholic church in tlie nineteenth century. 
 
 Are we tiicn to understand her as the immutable, universal, ancient, 
 primitive, apostolic church of Christ? Arc we to understand this by 
 the Roman Catholic church of the nineteenth century, with her popes, 
 her cardinals, her patriarchs, primates, metropolitans, arciibishops, 
 archdeacons, monks, friars, nuns, &c. &c. teacliing and preaching the 
 use and worshij) of images, relics, ])enances, invocation of departed 
 men and women, veneration for some being whom tliey call " the mo- 
 ther of God," teaching and preaching the doctrine of priestly absolu- 
 tion, auricular confession, purgatory, transubstantiation, extreme unc- 
 tion, &c. &c. 
 
 Is this the ancient, universal, holy apostolic church? Not one of 
 these dogmas can be found jn the bible. 
 
 They originated hundreds of years since, as I am prepared to show, 
 from the evidence of Roman Catholic authors themselves. How then 
 can w-e call it the ancient apostolic church 1 Not one of these offices 
 nor dogmas is mentioned in the New Testament. Hear Du Pin on 
 this point. In exposing the im|)osition, practised, by an effort, so 
 late as the ninth century, to foist into the history of the church certain 
 pretended decrees or writings of those called the first popes, Du Pin, 
 an authentic Roman Catholic historian, proves these decrees and 
 writings to be spurious, because in them there are numerous allusions 
 to offices and customs not yet existing in the times referred to. 
 
 " The toUuwing proves llieiu spurious. Ibt. The. si roiid epistle of St. Clement 
 directed to St. Jaiuts, S))eaks of the Os'.inrii or (.loorkeeptr?, archdeacons and 
 other ecclesiastical officers, th:;t were not then introduced into the church." 
 
 2nd. " This lettt-r mentions sii6-deacon3, an order not then established in the 
 church." p. 534. 
 
 3d. " In the first Epistle attributed to St. Sixtus, he is called an ' archbishop,' 
 a word not used in this time." 
 
 4th. "The SeconJ, attributed to the same pope, mentions consecrated vessels, 
 and appeals to Royne, the grandeur of the church. It is there pretended that all 
 bishops wait for the pope's decision, and are instructed by his letters ; modes 
 of speaking- never used by the first bishops of Rome." 
 
 5th. " The epistle attributed to Telesphorus calls him an archbishop, a name 
 unknown in the first ages." 
 
 6th. " There is a decree in it, to enjoin three masses on our Savior's nativity, 
 a custom not so ancient." 
 
 7th. " We find several passa<^e9 in the letter ntfrlbuted to JlniccUis, which 
 does not agree with the time of that po])e ; as, for instance, what is there laid 
 down concerning the ordinations of bishops, sacerdotal tonsure, arcMiishops and 
 primates, which were not instituted till long after ; besides many things of the 
 same ii.it-re." p. 535. 
 
 How, then, can we suppose that this chufch of the nineteenth cen- 
 tury, with so many appendages, is the apostolic church — the only 
 original, primitive, universal institution of Christ? 
 
 But she glories in the name of mother and mistress of all churches 
 throughout the world. This astonishes me still more ; for with the 
 bible in his hand and history before him, who can stand up and say, 
 that this church ever was the mother and mistress of all churches 
 
 The most ancient catholic church was the Hebrew. She was the 
 mother, though not the mistress of all churches; for the christian 
 church has no reigning queen on earth, to lord it over her — as Paul 
 says, on another occasion — " Jerusalem is the mother of us all."
 
 KO.MAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 13 
 
 If the gentleman admit Luke to be a faithful historian, he must not 
 only place the Hebrew church first, but the Samaritan, Phenician, 
 Syrian and Hellenist churches as older than the church in Rome. I 
 say if we speak of churches, as respects antiquity, the Hebrew, Sa- 
 maritan, Syrian and Phenician churches must be regarded as prior to 
 her. The Acts of the Apostles close with Paul's first appearance in 
 Rome. 
 
 But that the Roman Catholic institution may stand before you in 
 bold relief as a sectarian establishment, I will give you a definition 
 of her pretensions, from an authentic source, one of her own stan- 
 dards. The Douay catechism, in answer to the question — " What 
 are the essential parts of the church T' teaches " A pope, or supreme 
 head, bishops, pastors and laity." p. 20. 
 
 These, then, are the four constituent and essential elements of the 
 Roman Catholic church. The first is the pope, or head. It will be 
 confessed by all, that, of these, the most essential is the head. But 
 should we take away any one of these, she loses her identity, and 
 ceases to be what she assumes. My first etfort then shall be to prove 
 that, for hundreds of years after Christ, she was without such a head ; 
 the most indispensable of these elements ; and consequently, this be- 
 ing essential to her existence, she was not from the beginning. Be- 
 cause no body can exist before its head. Now, if we can find a time 
 whpn there was no pope, or supreme head, we find a time when there 
 was no Roman Catholic party. 
 
 By referring to the scriptures, and to the early ecclesiastical re- 
 cords, we can easily settle tliis point. Lot us begin with the New 
 Testament, which all agree, is the only authenticated standard of 
 faith and manners — the only inspired record of the christian doctrine. 
 This is a cardinal point, and I am thankful that in this we all agree. 
 Wiiat is not found there, wants the evident sanction of inspiration, 
 and can never conmiand the respect and homage of those who seek 
 for divine authority in faith and morality. 
 
 I affirm then, that not one of the offices, I have enumerated, as be- 
 longing to the Roman Catholic church, was known in the days of 
 the apostles, or is found in llu: N<;\v T<istamenl. On the contrary, 
 the very notion of a vicar of Christ, of a prince of tlio apostles, or of 
 a universal ii'^ad, and government in the ('lirislian churcli is repugnant 
 to the genius and spirit of the religion. We shall read a few passa- 
 ges of scripture, from the Roman version, to prove that the very idea 
 of an earthly head is unscriptural and anti-scri|>tural. The version 
 from which I am about to quote wasprinli'd in New York, and is cer- 
 tified to correspond exactly, with the Rliemisli oriirjuai, l)y a number 
 of gentlemen, of the first standing in society. If it difiers from any 
 other and more authentic copy, I will not rely upon it. I am willing 
 to take whatever l)iblo the gentleman may {)ro|)ose. I read from the 
 twenti(!th of Matthew. ".lesus said to his disciples. You know that 
 the princes of the (Jentiles overrule them, and those that an; the grea- 
 ter exercise power against them. It shall not be so among you, but 
 whosoever will be the greater among yon, let him be your minister!" 
 Does this convey the idea of a prince; among the apostles, a vicar of 
 (Jhrist, a lord over the people of (iod 1 l)r)es it not rather say there 
 shall not be any /wf/.t/(//> ainnn^nl yon! 'I'iiis command is express, 
 ■hat there shall not be a pope, a supreme lord of the christian church. 
 Again, Malt. 23. 8. " Be not you called Rabbi, for one is your Master 
 B
 
 14 DEBATE oy THE 
 
 and all ye are brethren : and call none father (i. e. pope) for one is 
 your father, be that is in heaven. Neither be you called masters, for 
 one is your master, (^hrist. He that is the greater of you shall be 
 your servitor!" If the very q\iestion al)out a pope had been before 
 the Messiah at this time, he could not have spoken more clearly. 
 This expression indicates the most perfect equality of rank among 
 the apostles and disciples of Christ, and positively forbids, in a re- 
 ligious sense, the assumption of the title o{ father ot pope. The com 
 mandment which says " thou shalt not steal," is not more clearly laid 
 down than the command " call no man father." 
 
 Now will the gentleman deny that *' pope" (in Greek " pappas," 
 in Latin, "papa") means "father?" and that the case clearly comes 
 within the command. Jesus Christ says, "call no man pope ;" yet 
 they ordain a bishop and call him pope ; and this pope claims the 
 title of "universal father" — supreme head and governor of the church 
 of Christ. He is sometimes called Lord God the pope. 
 
 This testimony of Christ will outweigh volumes. Put all the fo- 
 lios and authorities, which the gentleman may bring, on one side, and 
 this text of .Tesus Christ on the other, and the former, in comparison 
 will be found light as the chaft" which is blown away by a breath. 
 
 Can any one, then, who fears God and believes in the Messiah, call 
 the pope, or any human being " father" in the sense here intended. 
 The Lord anticipated the future in all his precepts, and spoke with 
 an eye to it as well as to the men of his own time. He had the pride 
 and assumptions, of the Rabbis of Jerusalem, in his e)'e, who cove- 
 ted renown, who loved such greetings in the market place, and re- 
 ceived such compellations in the synagogues. Describing these men 
 to his disciples, he cautions them against their example, and teaches 
 them to regard each other as brethren. I hope the gentleman will pay 
 particular attention to this point in his reply to these remarks. 
 
 The third testimony on which we rely will be found in Ephesians 
 iv. 11. This passage sums up all the officers or gifts which Jesus 
 gave the church after his ascension into heaven. " And " says Paul 
 " he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, 
 and some pastors, and doctors " or teachers. In this enumeration, 
 which contains the whole, there is no pope. The highest or first rank 
 is given to apostles. 
 
 In every other enumeration found in the epistles, there is the same 
 clear reference to the apostles as thefirst class. 1 Cor. xii. 28. But 
 let Peter himself speak as to his rank. We see that in his own 1st 
 Epistle, ch. 1, he calls himself an apostle, not the apostle of Jesus, 
 not the prince of apostles, not the supreme head of the church. Pe- 
 ter had no idea of such headship and lordship. 
 
 Again in addressing the "seniors" or elders, chap. v. 1. he says, 
 "I myself am a fellow senior." They were all co-elders, co-bishops, 
 co-apostles, as respected each other ; and as respected all other offi- 
 cers the apostles werejirsl. The thought of a supreme head amongst 
 them is not found in the New Testament; only as reprobated by our 
 Savior. 
 
 I will not, at present, advance any more scriptural authority upon 
 the point, but shall proceed to examine what foundation this element 
 of the Roman church, has in ancient history. But I would here say 
 distinctly, once for all, that I will not open a single document to prove 
 any doctrine, tenet, or principle of Protestantism, other than this holy
 
 ROMAN" CATHOLIC RELIGION. 15 
 
 record of the prophets, and apostles, the holy men of God, who spake 
 as they were moved hy the Holy Spirit. On these I rely, and I af- 
 firm that these contain no authority for the assumption of the doctrine 
 of a universal father, pope, or head of the church. There was no 
 such person mentioned — no such idea cherished until hundreds of 
 years after the death of the apostles. 
 
 I will read the following' general remarks by this learned historian. 
 The title page is as follows : — 
 
 A New History of Ecclesiastical Writers, containing an account of 
 the authors of the several books of the Old and New Testaments ; of 
 the lives and writings of the primitive Fathers : an abridgment and 
 catalogue of their works ; their various editions, and censures, deter- 
 mining the genuine and spurious. Together with a judgment upon 
 style and doctrine. Also a compendious history of the Councils ; with 
 Chronological Tables of the whole, written in French by Lewis El- 
 lies Du Pin, doctor of the Sorbonne, and Regius Professor at Paris 
 3 vols. Folio. The Third Edition corrected, Dublin, printed by and for 
 George Grierson, at the l^ivo Bibles in Essex Street, mdccxxiv. 
 
 I am happy to find, appended to the preface, the seals and signatures 
 of- men high in the church, which I cannot now stop to read. 
 
 From this work I will proceed to read some passages in proof 
 of the proposition I have advanced, that there is not a vestige of evi 
 dence in favor of the cardinal idea, of the Roman Catholic religion, 
 that tliere wjus a pope in the first ages of the church. At the close of 
 the third century the highest advance yet made towards any supremacy 
 in the church on the ground of metropolitan standing, is thus describ 
 ed by Du Pin. 
 
 '• 'I'lie bisliops of;^r(-at cities had thiir prorogatives in ordinations, and in coun- 
 cils; and as in civiJ afl'airs men generally nad recourse to the civil metropolis, so 
 likewise in ecclesiastical matters, they consulted with the bishop of the metro- 
 politan city. The churches of the three principal cities of the world were looked 
 upon as criief, and their bishops attributed great prerogatives to themselves. The 
 church of Rome, founded by St. Peter and St. I'aul, was considered as first, 
 and its bishop as first amongst all the bishops of the world ; yet they diil not be- 
 lieve him to be infallible: and ihougli they frequently consuld-d him, and hit 
 advice wag of great rousefmrnce, yet they did not receive it blind-fold and im- 
 plicitly, every bIslio[) imaguiing himself to have a right to judge in ecclesiastical 
 matters." p. 590. 
 
 Observe the bishops of the principal cities attributed to t/iemselvea 
 grcftt prerogatives. And Rome, the chief city, began to assume the 
 chief prerogatives. Rut tlie general character of the clergy as detail- 
 ed by thi.s writer was not yet favorable to such assumptions — for, 
 says he, 
 
 " The clergy were not distinguished from others by any peculiar habits, but 
 by the sanctity of their life unti manners, they .were removed from all kind of 
 avariri', and carefully avoiiled <;very thing that seemed to carry tin: appearance 
 of scandalous, fdthy lucre. They administered the sacniment g-rn/i*, and believed 
 5t to be an abominable crime (ogive or re reive any thing for a spiritual bli'ssing. 
 Tithes were not then ajjpropriated to them, but the people maintained them vol- 
 tinturily at their own expense." 
 
 "The clergy were prolijliited to meddle with any civil and secular affairs. They 
 were ordained againiit their will and did not remove from one church to another 
 out of a principle of interest or ambition. They were extremely chaste and re- 
 gular. It was lawful for priests to keep the wives they married before they were 
 ordained." 
 
 Nothing indeed like an ecclesiastical establishment was yet in ex- 
 istence : for says Du Pin, speaking of these times. 
 
 " .\ Iter all. it must be confessed, thatth" discipline of the church lias beeu so
 
 16 bEBATE ON THE 
 
 extremely different and so often altered, that it is almost impossible to say anj 
 thins: positively concerning it." p. 590. 
 
 So Stood the matter at the close of the third century. 
 
 But we have still more definite and positive testimony, in the great 
 councils of the 4th and 5th centuries. Let us then examine the early 
 councils. The famous council of Nice which sat in 325, is the firs't 
 general council that ever assembled ; for although they call the con- 
 sultations of the apostles — Acts 15,, a council, yet in the enumeration 
 of general councils, of which they establish eighteen, that of Nice is 
 called the first. 
 
 At this council there were present 318 bishops. It was called by 
 the Roman emperor in order to settle certain discords in what was 
 then called the church. By the sixth canon of this first council it ap- 
 pears, according to Du Pin, that the idea of a pope, or supreme head, 
 had not begun to be entertained^ The sixth canon of the council of 
 Nice is as follows. 
 
 "The 6th canon is famous for the several questions it has occasioned. The 
 most natural sense that can be given to it, is this: ' We ordain tliat the ancient 
 custom shall be observed, whicli gives power to the bishop ol" Alexandria, over 
 all the provinces o( Egypt, Libya, and Pnnlapolis, because the bishop of Rome 
 has the like jurisdiction over all the suburbicary regions (for this adclition must 
 be supplied out of Riijinus;) we would likewise have the rights and privileges of 
 the church of Aniioch and the other churches preserved ; but these rights ought 
 not to prejudice those of the metropolitans. If any one is ordained without the 
 consent of the metropolitan, the council declares, that he is no bishop: but if any 
 one is canonically chosen by the suffrage of almost all the bishops of tne province, 
 and if there are but one cr two of a contrary opinion, the suffrages of the far 
 greater number ought to carry it for the ordination of those particular persons. 
 This canon being thus explained has no difficulty in it. It does not oppose the 
 primacy of the church of Rome, but neither does it establish it.' 
 
 " In this sense it is, that it compares the church of Rome to the church of 
 Alexandria, by considering them all as patriarchal churches. It continues also 
 to the church of Aniioch and all the other great churches, whatsoever rights 
 they could have; but lest their authority should be prejudicial to the ordinary 
 metropolitans, who were subject to their jurisdiction, tlie council confirms what 
 had been ordained in the fourth canon concerning the authority of metropo- 
 litans in the ordination of bishops. This explication is easy and natural, and we 
 have given many proofs of it in our Latin dissertation concerning the ancient 
 discipline of the church." 
 
 "This canon," says Du Pin, who be it remembered was always 
 anxious to find some authority for the pope's supremacy, " does not 
 
 ESTABLISH THE SUPRE.MACY OF THE CHURCH OF RoME." Willing 33 
 
 he was to have this primacy traced to the beginning of Christianity, 
 he is constrained to admit, that even the council of Nice does not es- 
 tablish it. Nay more — it is in truth against it ; for it gives the Bishop 
 of Alexandria like jurisdiction with the church of Rome; and also 
 preserves to the church of Antioch its metropolitan dominion. 
 
 It would be too tedious to go into an exposition of the causes, why 
 so much power was accumulated in the hands of four or five bishops. 
 It originated in the divisions of the empire. In Roman jurisdiction, 
 there were four great political dioceses, (for diocese was then a politi- 
 cal term) and to these the church conformed. Hence the patriarchal 
 sees of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria. In process 
 of time, Jerusalem was added, and these all became radiating centres 
 of ecclesiastical power and patronage. The bishop of each diocese 
 assumed a sort of primacy, in his own district ; and as various inter- 
 ferences and rivalries in jurisdiction occurred, the council of Nice so 
 far decided that the same power should be given to them all — that all
 
 R05IAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 17 
 
 primates should be co-ordinate. Hence Du Pin could not find in that 
 council authority for the supreme primacy of Rome. In the canons 
 of the second and third general councils there is no reference to these 
 matters whatever. 
 
 I shall therefore proceed to the great council of Chalcedon, of pre- 
 eminent authority, the greatest of the first four general councils. 
 
 From all the canons of the council relating to government, it is evi- 
 dent that they had not yet excogitated the idea of a supreme head. 
 
 Says Du Pin, 
 
 " lhe-2i>th canon grantstD the church of tliecity of Cons'.antincph,\vh\ch is 
 called JVtto Rome, the same privileges with old Rome, because this city is the se- 
 cond city in the world. It also adjudges to it, besides this, jurisdiction over the 
 dioceses of Ponius, Asia, and T/irace, and over the churches which are out of the 
 bounds of the emperor, and aright to ordain metropolitans in the provinces of 
 these dioceses." p. 678. 
 
 Thus this council, composed of 340 bishops, and assembling in the 
 year of our Lord 451, gave the same power to the patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople as to the patriarch of Rome, and makes the supremacy of 
 the one equal to the supremacy of the other. 
 
 I have examined the proceedings of all the councils of the first six 
 centuries, of which I find about 170, promulgating in all about 1400 
 canons. I have read and examined the twenty creeds of the fourth 
 century with all their emendations down to the close of the sixth; 
 and I affirm, without the fear of contradiction, that there is not in all 
 these a single vestige of the existence of a pope or universal head of 
 the church down to the time of Gregory the great, or John the Faster 
 of Constantinople. 
 
 I shall now proceed to show from the same learned historian when 
 this idea began to be divulged. And be it emphatically observed that 
 the title of pope in its peculiar and exclusive sense was first assumed 
 by the patriarch of Constantinople, and approved by the patriarch of 
 Rome. Du Pin says in his life of Gregory, chap. 1, "He did of- 
 ten rigorously oppose the title of universal patriarch, which the patri- 
 archs of Constantinople assumed to themselves." Indeed he calls 
 the title, " proud, blasphemous, anti-christian, diabolical," and says, 
 the bishops of Rome refused to take this title upon them " lest they 
 should seem to encroach upon the rights of other bishops." But the 
 following document or remonstrance against the title shews what a 
 novelty the idea of an universal head, father, or pope was even at 
 Rome, A. D. 588 :— 
 
 " St. Gregory does not only oppose this title in the patriarch of Consfantino- 
 le, but maintains also, that it cannot agree to any other bishop, and that the 
 iishop of Rome neither ought, nor can assume it. ,Tohn the younger, patriarch 
 of Constantinople , had taken upon him this title in a council held in 586, in the 
 time of pope relagius, which obliged this pope to annul the Acts of this coun- 
 cil. St. Gregory wrote of it also to this patriarch ; hut this made no impression 
 on him, and Jiilin would not abandon this fine title, H. 4. Kp. 36. St. Gregory 
 addreised himself to the eiii|)iTor Mauritius, and exhorted him earnestly to 
 employ his authority for redressing this abuse, and force him who assumed this 
 title to quit it. He remonstrates to him in his l> tter, that although Jeaus Christ 
 had committed to St. Peter the care of all his churches, yet he was not called 
 universal apostle. That the title of universal bishop is against the rules of the 
 ospel, iiiid the nppoifitineiil of the canons : that there cannot be nn universal 
 ishop but the authority of all the other will be destroyed or diminished ; that 
 if the bishop of Constantinople were universal bishop, and it should happen that 
 oe should fall into heresy, it might be said that the universal church was fallen 
 into destruction. That the council of Chalctdon bad offered this title to Lto, 
 B3 3 
 
 ^ 
 
 I
 
 18 DBBATB Oy THB 
 
 bat neither he nor his luccessors would fircrpt it, lest by giving something pe- 
 culiar to one bishop only, they should laki- away the rights which belong to all 
 the bishops. — That it btlongs to the eniprror to reduce by his authority hira 
 who drspists the canons, and does injury to tlie universal ciiurch by assunning 
 this sinp;ular name." H. 4. I'.p. ;?2. 
 
 But at this time the patriarchs" of Constantinople and Rome were 
 contending for the supremacy, and while it appeared to Gregory that 
 his rival of the east was likely to possess the title, he saw in it, eve- 
 ry thing anti-christian and profane. When a new dynasty, however, 
 ascended the throne and offered the title to a Roman bishop, it lost all 
 its blasphemy and impiety, and Me find the successor of Gregory can 
 wear the title of uiuversal patriarch when tendered him by Phocas, 
 without the least scrupulosity. 
 
 It is then a fact worthy of much consideration in this discussion, 
 that John bishop of Constantinople first assumed the title of univer- 
 sal head of the whole christian church, and that the bishop of Rome 
 did in that case oppose it as anti-scriptural and anti-christian. 
 
 Concerning the reputation of Saint Gregory I need not be profuse. 
 Of the Gregories he is deservedly called the Great. Renowned in 
 history as one wlio stamped his OAvn image on the Roman w-orld for 
 a period of five hundred years, yet he could net brook the idea of a 
 pope, especially when about to be bestowed on his rival at Constan- 
 tinople. 
 
 St. Gregory, be it remembered, says Du Pin, did not only oppose 
 the title in the case of John the Faster, as proud, heretical, blasphe- 
 mous, &c. but could not agree to its being assumi.;d by any other 
 bishop ; he affirmed that the bishops of Rome ought not, dare not, 
 cannot assume this pompous and arrogant title. 
 
 Thus stood matters as respects a supreme head up to within 14 
 jeais of the close of the Cth century. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Eleven unlock ^. M. 
 Bishop Purcei.l rises — 
 
 I thought it likely, my respected and beloved fellow citizens, that I 
 should have to day a ditlicult task before me. But I perceive that I 
 shall have an easy one. I expected from the reputation of my antag- 
 onist as a debater, that he was going to argue so closely, and to press 
 me so hard, that he would, to use a common expression, make minced 
 meat cf me, and not leave one bone of me unbroken. I thought that 
 my creed, so ancient, so venerable, so holy, was to be torn into tat- 
 ters and scattered to the four winds of heaven — I was mistaken ! 
 
 The gentleman occupied ten minutes of his time in endeavoring to 
 bias the judgment of his hearers in favor of the idea, that this contro- 
 versy originated not with himself, but that I was the aggressor, in 
 doing which he was called to order. I will not trespass more than 
 two or three minutes on your patience in answering his preliminary 
 observations. 
 
 I am willing to let that matter rest on its own merits. As to the 
 question of assailant and defender in this controversy, the public have 
 the data, and it is for them to judge. My worthy opponent began the 
 presen-t debate by representing himself as the staunch defender of Pro- 
 testantism, endeavoring thereby to enlist the sympathies of Protestants 
 in his favor. And what, I would presume, to inquire, are his princi- 
 ples 1 What are his claims, his pretensions, or his right to appear 
 Ufore this Msambly aa ths ilefender of Protestantism ^ We are all
 
 EOilAK CATHOLIC RELIGION. 19 
 
 aware whit sad pranks have been lately played off before high Hea 
 ven by men sty'/ln^ themselves Protestants, which all classes of Pro- 
 testants unite in deprecating, .which they all condemn. I know not 
 whether there be not some Protestants here, \vho will not admit his 
 gratuitous advocacy of their principles — who will not believe that the 
 
 firinciples of Piolestantism which he volunteers to defend will be ful- 
 y or fairly represented by him. For one, I think tiie Episcopalians, 
 a numerous and respectable class, will not consent to be represented 
 by him ; for he denies, if I am rio^htly informed, that there is proper- 
 ly any ministry in the Protestant church so called — that a divine call 
 should precede the assumption of the sacred office. [Here the mod- 
 erators interrupted, by requesting the speaker to confine himself to the 
 question.] 
 
 Well we are so far even, [a lauQjh.] The gentleman, then, began 
 by the assertion that the term Roman Catholic was an incongruity.— 
 But I deny it to be an incongruity. Terms, we all know, are used 
 the mo-e clearly to designate the idea or object which they represent. 
 " Catholic" is the name of our church ; and we qnly prefix the word 
 Roman to signify that she is in communion with the see of Rome. 
 We acknowledge there a primate of superior, ecclesiastical jurisdic- 
 tion, and in his communion we do abide. 
 
 He says the word Roman is incongruous ; yet his own authority, 
 Du Pin, says it was S3'nonymous with Catholic. It was so under- 
 Stood formerly. And here I may observe that I deny the authority 
 of Du Pin to be competent to the settlement of questions to be called 
 up for decision in the course of the present controversy. Du Pin was 
 a Jansenist, removed from his place of Regius Professor at the Sor- 
 bonne for his doctrinal errors, by Louis XIV^. to whom Clement XI. 
 addressed a brief on this occasion, commending his zeal for the 
 truth. The claim of Rome was undisputed in the early ages, and it 
 was only when her preeminence was contested that the term " Roman" 
 was used before the word Catholic. Hence it was no incongruity, 
 but a clearer designation of the see in whose communion were all the 
 churches. He has stated an inaccuracy in saying that tiie word cath- 
 olic was not found in the bible. Is not the epistle of St. James cal- 
 led catholic T And will he presume to say the word was not placed 
 there in the very first age of Christianity? 
 
 The gentleman says he will use no words that may convey an op- 
 
 frobrious meaning. God forbid that I should set him the example, 
 shall debate this question with earnestness, but not with passion. 
 As soon as the discussion closes, I can meet the gentleman without a 
 ■ingle unkind or unfriendly feeling. 
 
 But in enumerating various doctrines of the Catholic church, I was 
 shocked to hear him use the language " some being called the mother 
 of God." Great God ! didst tliou not send into the world thy !Son, 
 Jesus Christ, to save perishing man. and didst iliou not select one 
 of all the daiighters of Kve.to be the mother of that child of benedic- 
 tion, and was not Mary this holy one, to whose care was committed 
 his infinry, nnd to whom he was subject] VV'as sh»! not the chosen 
 one of heaven, to whom its archangel was sent with the communica- 
 tion — " Hail, full of Grace," or as it is in the Protestant version— 
 "thou that art liigbly favored — the I,ord is with thee," and do we 
 now hear her stigmatized in such language, and dcsignatad aa "soiua 
 being called the mother of God 1"
 
 20 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 The gentleman then contests the doctrine of a hierarchy in the 
 chvirch ; and says what he asserts is proved by the scriptures. I 
 would ask — has he read the bible ? Has he read the book of Leviti- 
 cus T Docs he not find there the example set of a distinction of orders 
 iu religious aflfairs ] Did not the Lord speak to Moses, saying, — 
 " ' Take Aaron with his sons, their vestments and the oil of unction,' 
 and he poured it on Aaron's head — he put also the mitre on his head 
 And after he had offered his sons, he vested them with linen tunics 
 and girded them with girdles," &c. &c. " And Nadab and Abiu 
 were consumed with fire for opposing them, and they died before the 
 Lord." Did not Moses lead ] Did not Aaron assist? Were there 
 not councillors appointed by the Lord, to divide the burden of their 
 ministry'? Did not king Josaphat send Zachariah and Nathaniel and 
 Michael, and with them the Levites, Senneias, &c., to teach the peo- 
 ple ■? Paralip. 17. 7. What is this but a distinction of orders and of 
 authority in the Jewish dispensation ] 
 
 He says there was no distinction of orders in the early christian 
 church ; and he refuted himself by appealing for a solution of the dif- 
 ficulty to St. Paul. Were there no orders, no hierarchy"? What says 
 St. Paul in 4th Kphesians? " And he gave some apostles, and some 
 prophets, ann aher some evangelists, and other some pastors, and 
 teachers, for trie perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, 
 for the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all meet unto the 
 unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect 
 man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ." We 
 must here remark a gradation of authority in the church of God. For 
 what] For the work of the ministry. There never has existed a so- 
 cial body without subordination, or distinction of rank. The church 
 of Christ is a social body. It needs to be subjected to order, even 
 more than a political body; and as if St. Paul anticipated the objec- 
 tion, which we have, not without surprise, heard this day urged, he 
 expressly states the object of the institution of a hierarchy by him, 
 who ascending on high gave gifts to men, to be the perfecting of the 
 saints — the unity of faith. " Are all," he asks, (what my friend 
 would make them) "prophets? Are all pastors?" — He elsewhere 
 asks, " How can they preach unless they be sent?" By whom? By 
 an ecclesiastical superior. — So much for the evidence of the Old Tes- 
 tament, and the New Testament. They both teach a head, a hierar- 
 chy and subordination among the people of God. 
 
 This takes me to the examination of the title, assumed by the Cath- 
 olic church, of mother and mistress of all the churches. He says 
 Jerusalem was the mother church at first — and then the Samaritan, 
 and so on, 1 need not follow him. I will explain what we mean by 
 the term. — We call her mother because she guides, she cherishes us. 
 We call her mother, because we feel a filial reverence for her — just 
 as an orphan calls her who protects her, educates her, and guides her 
 ■wandering feet, by the same tender appellative. There is no blasphe- 
 my in this comparison. It is the Son of God that established the 
 authority of that church. The name is its designation. 
 
 But the word ' mistress' is never used in speaking of the church, 
 in the sense of lordship, or queenship. It is the way in which chil- 
 dren address their teacher. They frequently use the expression, as 
 we read in (;ordery'9 Colloquies, "salve magister." Magistra here is 
 addressed to her in her capacity of teacher, and such she is, and, as I
 
 EOMAX CATHOLIC EKLIGIO:?. 81 
 
 shall prove, by the appointment and the express institution of Jesus 
 Christ. 
 
 He next referred to tr«<- P oway catechism to show from the defini- 
 tion of the Catholic church, that she consisted of four elements, viz. 
 the pope, bishops, pastors, and laity. 
 
 Now the catechism of this diocese defines the Catholic church to 
 be the congregation of all the faithful, professing- the same faith, re- 
 ceiving the same sacraments, and united under one visible head, the 
 pope, or vicar of Jesus Christ, on earth. 
 
 It is defined to be the congregation of all the faiihful. This is the 
 definition which most authors give. It is that of the catechism from 
 which my friend has quoted. 
 
 But let us adopt his definition, and I am prepared to show that the 
 idea of a supreme head has its origin in the bible, and is supported 
 by the earliest ecclesiastical authoritj*, I must here take notice of the 
 promise he gave to put his finger on the precise day and date when 
 the church called the Roman Catholic church, ceased to be the church 
 of Christ. He has left us as much ia the dark as ever on this most 
 important of all events. It is a point which has puzzled the world, 
 and will for ever puzzle it, to fix that date. It will, I am sure, puz- 
 zle my friend. The whole world has never been able to state at what 
 particular moment the Catholic church lost her prerogative and the 
 favor of God — when she ceased to be in the true sense the Calhoh'c 
 Church. The reason of Ihis is obvious. She has never forfeited her 
 prerogative. But to the matter before us. It is opposed to scripture 
 to assert that the church in apostolic days had no head. What did 
 Christ say to Peter when he addressed him the mysterious question — 
 " Lovest thou me more than these"? Peter says he does love him. 
 Jesus gives him the order, " feed my lambs." A second time he asks 
 the question, and receives the same reply. The third time he repeats 
 the same question. Peter, troubled that his Lord should doubt his 
 affection, replies, " Oh Lord, thou knowest all things — thou knowest 
 that I love thee," and Jesus repeated the command — " feed iiiy lambs" 
 — " feed my shee))." 
 
 Thus Christ establishes the headship of the church in Peter, and 
 him he makes liis vice-gerent, or common pastor, to feed both lambs 
 and sheep — botli clergy and laity. 
 
 Mr. Campbell quarrels with the doctrine of the pope's headship 
 because it carries 71 poivcr and an auihorily with it: aiul he quotes the 
 New Testament to prove no such power to have been exercised in tlio 
 days of the apostles. I have disproved his argument upon this point 
 already. Christ did institute a body of leaders, a ministry to guide 
 his people, "that henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, 
 and carried about hy every wind of doctrine, by the wickechiess of 
 men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 
 But doing the truth in Christ, we may in all things grow up in him 
 who is head, even Christ; from whom the wiiole body being compac- 
 ted and fitly joined together, by what every part su|)plielh, according 
 to the f)p(Talir)fi in the measure of every pari, makelli increase of tlio 
 body, unto the edifying of itself in ciuirity.'' Must not the body 
 have a head, the house a foundation'? Ho objects that we call the 
 sovereign pontiff — Pope, or father, whereas Clirisl says, "call not any 
 man Father." But is this proliibilion of our Savior to be taken liter- 
 ally ] Is there any guilt or imoiety in calling a parent " Father?"
 
 83 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 Many of Christ's commands are similar. He commands., ilp'' to call 
 no man good.- for God only is good. But do we not, in saluting a 
 friend in common life, say " Good Sir," " myp^ood friend]" &c. Is 
 there any impiety in this 1 It is the usinjr these terms in that sense 
 in which lliey are peculiar to tiie divinity, which Christ forbids. 'And 
 the pope when he corresponds with the bishops, does not_^ assume 
 these proud titles, but addresses them as an elder Brother. We do 
 not call him " Lord God the Pope." 
 
 Mr. C. says, St. Paul did not lord it over the clergy. P^either 
 does the pope. He is to govern the church according to the canons. 
 He can make no articles of faith. He cannot, he does not act arbi- 
 trarily in proposing articles of belief unknown to Catholic antiquity. 
 But neither will he suffer innovation. His language is lik'e St. Paul's, 
 "Were I or an angel from Heaven to preach to you any other gospel, 
 than what has been preached, let him he Anathema!" This expres- 
 sed the sense the great apostle entertained of his own responsibility, 
 and the danger of novelty in religion. He would not suffer altar to 
 be raised against altar, on the ground of private interpretation of the 
 bible. He would not suffer the wolves of heresy and error to prowl 
 around the fold, and tear, and scatter the sheep entrusted to him by 
 Jesus Christ. 
 
 It would be horrid blasphemy to apply to man the title Father, in 
 the sense in which it is addressed to God. We never call the rijS^e 
 in any sense God. When the pope writes to the bishoY)S, he begms 
 hy '■'■ Dikcti Fratres''' "Beloved Brethren," — a fepublican, and if 
 you please democratic address. The bishops are all brethren under 
 one common fother. The pope is accused of letting himself be wor- 
 shipped. This is not so. But when the Pope comes before the altar 
 he bows down like the humblest of his people. "I confess," say*. 
 he, "to Almighty God, to the blessed Virgin Mary, the holy Apostles, 
 and to all the Saints," the least of whom he therefore acknowied^Sj 
 to be greater than himself, " that I have sinned ;" and this is what is' 
 called setting himself up to be a God ! See how you have been de- 
 ceived by the invidious representations you have had of the pope, and 
 of our doctrine, my friends. -t.^^-.-^ ■• 
 
 I assert again that the authority quoted by my friend, Mr. C, viz. 
 Du Pin, is no authority. He was the rank enemy of the Roman see, 
 a Jansenist, reproved and censured by the Catholic church. Mr. C. 
 knows this, for I have read to him the documents that prove it, and 
 he was confounded by them. It is neither good faith, nor good logic, 
 to quote him as an authority against my argument. As for the signa- 
 tures appended to the English translation, I care not for them ; they 
 may have been wrongfully placed there, or those certificates suborn- 
 ed. This makes nothing for the authority of the book, and', no argu- 
 ment can be drawn from them. But, my friends, I am sure you dis- 
 covered his discomfiture when he appealed to Du Pin. There was a 
 stumbling block in his way, something he could not get over. I>id 
 you not notice how with the rapid speed of a rail-road car dashing 
 suddenly on an obstruction, he Jled the track, when he I'ound to his as- 
 tonishment that the testimony adduced by his author, was not unfa- 
 vorable to the supremacy of St. Peter, and his successors ! I will 
 examine his writings to show that evien in the thifd century, the bish- 
 ops of Rome claimed this prerogative, and Du/'Pin tells you that this 
 was acknowledged. He says there were three principal bishops.
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 23 
 
 This is a great admission, and I am thankful for it. He says that 
 even then, bishops came from inferior sees, and laid their conflicting 
 claims before the see of Rome ; and submitted to the chair of Peter, 
 doubts in religious matters ; and urged it to proclaim a solution of 
 their ditHculties ; but he says, they did not believe the pope of Rome 
 infallible. This is granting to the Catholics the whole mooted ques- 
 tion. The question is clearly settled by this admission. Appeals 
 were lodged before the bishop of Rome, though he was not believed 
 to be infallible. Neither is he now. No enlightened Catholic holds 
 the pope's infallibility to be an article of faith. I do not ; and none 
 of my brethren, that I know of, do. The Catholic believes the pope, 
 as a man, to be as liable to error, as almost any other man in the uni- 
 verse. Man is man, and no man is infallible, either in doctrine or 
 morals. Many of the popes have sinned, and some of them have 
 been bad men. I presume my worthy antagonist will take his brush 
 in hand, and roll up his sleeves, and lay it on them hard and heavy ; 
 so will I ; and whenever he uses a strong epithet against them, I will 
 use a stronger. But let us return to the gentleman's authority, Du 
 Pin. We come to the council of Nice, which was held A. D. 325, 
 and where 318 bishops were assembled. This council was convoked 
 by the first christian emperor Constantine the Great, at the suggestion, 
 I mighi have more correctly said the instigation of Sylvester, bishop 
 of Rome, and of course, with his consent. Osius, bishop of Cordo- 
 va, and two legates, Vitus and Vincentlus, presided in it, in the name 
 of the Roman pontiff. The principal doctrine on which the council 
 was assembled to decide, was the divinity of Jesus Christ denied by 
 the Arians. From the manner of the convocation of the council, the 
 circumstance of its having been presided over by the representatives 
 of the pope, or bishop of Rome, the submission of the entire chris- 
 tian world to its decrees, and the authentic records of its transactions 
 which have reached us, we have the most convincing evidences of the 
 reverence which was even then entertained for the successor of St. 
 Peter; and the best practical illustration of the wisdom that estab- 
 lished his prp-erninencH of rank ;iiiioiig his brethren, to watch over 
 the purity of doctrine, the soundness of morals, the uniformity of 
 discipline, and the maintenance of union among the churches. What 
 more direct and satisfactory testimony could we require of the supre- 
 macy of the see of Rome, th;<n tin- distinct recognition of its authori- 
 ty by so venerable an assembly ? And what if rival claims were ad- 
 vanced by other scesi 'I'liis ambitious spirit is as old as Christiani- 
 ty, as ancient as tlie origin of the human race. The apostles, them- 
 selves, strove for the mastery. They contended which of them was 
 the greater. But this rivalry only served, in the end, to establish 
 more firmly tlie precedency f)f the claim of St. Peter. In answer to 
 the pretensions of the bishop of Alexandria, the council says to him, 
 •' As the bishop of Rome has his primacy in Rome, so the l)ishop of 
 Alexandria has his primacy in Alexandria." It says to iiini, "you 
 have no cause to Cf)iiij)lain — if he has liis authority, you have yours; 
 in your respective sees, or chnrrhes, you have the diief control ; but 
 it is his prerogative, as occupying tlie placf' of Peter, to watt.-h over 
 the welfare of all." •' Neither," says Du Pin, " doks it dispiiove 
 THE PRiMAcv OK ROME." Tho council offered a sedative to the pride 
 of the bishop of Alexandria, or asserted his authority in his own see, 
 but it does not disprove the primacy of Romo
 
 24 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 What more do you want than what God has caused to be thus re- 
 corded Ijere 1 
 
 The dissension first originated among the patriarchal sees. The 
 counsel took cognizance of it, and decided according to the rules and 
 usages of the apostolic and immediately subsequent ages. From this, 
 whatever follows, it surely does not follow that there was no primacy 
 in Rome. 
 
 He says that the bishop of Constantinople assumed to call himself 
 the universal bishop, and that the emperor winked at it. What does 
 this mean ] Wliy that the crafty emperor, and the more subtle bishop 
 intended to compel Rome to acknowledge Constantinople as her 
 equal. This attempt of the emperor and the patriarcli illustrates the 
 point at issue, and clears it in fact of any dilBcuhy. They knew that 
 Rome was referred to on every occasion ; and that her decision was 
 final. They were jealous of her authority. The manner of this as- 
 sumption of the bishop of Constantinoph;, and of the emperor wink- 
 ing at it, are in fact proofs of the supremacy of Rome. Now, thought 
 the proud Greek, I will bring this haughty pontiff of Rome crouching 
 to my feet, I will make him surrender all his authority, and we, the 
 emperor and myself, will divide the earth between us. It was there- 
 fore that the bishop made this assumption, and that the emperor winked 
 at it. It was in this unjust and intolerable sense of the term Universal 
 Father, that Gregory who deserves all the praise which has been 
 given him, and more, objected to its assumption. It was thus that he 
 reprobated the title of universal father. 
 
 If the bishop of Rome now claims to be called the first pastor in 
 Christendom, he pretends to be no lord of the consciences of his breth- 
 ren, or dictator of the terms of salvation to the servants of God. 
 He acknowledges with humility his own intrinsic nothingness, unless 
 supported by God, and guided and guarded by him in the administra- 
 tion of his eminently responsible office. 
 
 He is a father because he breaks the mystic bread, and dispenses 
 the spiritual nourishment of sound doctrine to the souls of the people 
 of God. He is a father because to him we appeal in our doubts, and to 
 him refer in every emergency, as to the vicar of Christ. 
 
 The term Universal Father was likewise worthy of the condemna- 
 tion of Gregory, in the bad sense in which it was assumed by the pa- 
 triarch of Constantinople, viz. that of lord and master of spiritual 
 power and of the consciences of the brethren, so as not to need or ask 
 the advice of the bishops. The pope never gives a decree without 
 taking counsel from his constitutional advisers, availing himself of 
 the light of present wisdom and past experience. He takes all human 
 means to weigh the subject well and to come to a sound and scriptural 
 conclusion. Discard the pope — sever from the communion of the 
 church of Rome, and you lose all claim, or shadow of claim to a con- 
 nexion with the apostles. Hear Waddington speaking of the Vaudois — 
 
 " In our journcv back towards the apostolic times, these sepjrat sts conduct 
 us as far as the beginning of the twelfth century; but when we would advance 
 farther, we are intercepted by a broad region of darkness and uncertainty. A 
 spark of hope is indeed su^i^gested by the history of the Vaudois. Their origin is 
 not ascert.iined bv any aulhciitic lecord, and being ininieniorial, it may have 
 been coeval with ihe introduction of Christianity. 
 
 " But since there is not one direct proof of their existence during that long 
 space; since they have never been certainly discovered by the curiosity of any 
 writer, nor detected by the inquisitorial eye of any orthodox bishop, nor
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 25 
 
 Darned by any pope, or council, or any church record, chronicle, or memorial, 
 we are not justified in attaching any historical credit to their mere unsupported 
 tradition. It is sufficient to prove, that they had an earlier existence than the 
 twelfth century; but tliat thfy had then been perpetuated throufili eight or 
 nine centuries, uncouiniemorated abroad, and without any niitional moniinient 
 to attest their existence, is much more than we can venture, on such evidence, 
 to assert. Here tlien the golden chain of our apostolic dtscent disappears; 
 and though it may exist, buried in the darkness of those previous a>;<;s, and 
 though some writers have seemed to ciiscern a tew detached linlvs wnich they 
 diligently exhi'jited, tljcre is still much wanting to complete tiie continuity." 
 [Pag-e 554 of the History of tlie Churcli from Ihe earliest ages, by Rev. Geo. 
 JVadtlington, A. J^I./illow of Trinity College, Cambridge, and Prebendai-y of 
 Ferriiiz, in the calliairal clnirch if Chichester, J\^eiv Vor'-c edition, 1835.] 
 
 Well if Christ established a church on earth, that church must be 
 catholic. " I believe in the holy catholic church," is the lan^age 
 of the apostles and of councils, of Protestants as well as of Catholics. 
 The frue church must be catholic. What church then is catholici 
 The universe answers the question — Italy, France, Spain, Austria, 
 Ireland, vSouth America, Canada, five hundred churches lately erected 
 in England, Calcutta, Ceylon, Oceana, all the islands of the Pacific 
 and the Atlantic : even in every country where Protestantism is dom- 
 inant, Denmark, Norwaj', Sweden, the testimony is given, and the 
 words " I believe in the holy catliolic church" are used by the mem- 
 bers of the Roman Catholic church, who alone have a right to use 
 them. Applied to any other church they are a misnomer. Protestants 
 cannot employ such language. They are cut up into a thousand dis- 
 cordant and chaotic sects. As no other church but ours is now cath- 
 olic, so no other but ours ever has been or will be catholic. "Chris- 
 tian is my name and Catholic my surname," said Pacian. With love 
 and charity to all men the Roman Catholic church subsists throughout 
 all time, teaches all truth, and gathers into her communion the children 
 of every clime. What she lost in one region, she gained in another. 
 The a.xe of persecution that loi)ped off some of her branches, mad© 
 the vigorous trunk produce the more luxuriously. 
 
 " hutsligating," any s l letclicr, " in tliose countries, wiiere either Christianity 
 has once subsisted, or where it subsists at j)rcsent — the motDimcnIs which they 
 exhibit, and interrogating these (motiiimenis have voices, my brethren, that speaK 
 plainly,) — it will be found that they all loudly attest the greatness and the an- 
 tiquity of our religion. " IVe are Catholics," the veneiabU: ruins say, "and 
 the emblems even, which still adorn us, shew it." It is so. likewise, not only in 
 
 the nionuni»-nt9, which were once, or are yet, sacred to religion, but in a great 
 variety of other vestiges. The proofs of the ancient splendor of Catholicity are 
 legible on aIiiio»t every object, that has seen the tiile of ages roll away, — on the 
 
 palaces of prinre«,— on the castles of the great, — on the gates of cities, — on the 
 asylums of charity, — on the tombs of the ffead. They may be read in the con- 
 stitutions and laws of kingdoms — in the foundations and rules of universities,— 
 in the customs and peculiarities of the vulgar. «»»«»» 
 
 It is indeed, possible that prejudice may object to those arguments, that, 
 "they are very general and inclistliicl, — proving, it is true, that in almost every 
 nation, and in every age, there has existed a wiifely dirt'usetl religion, — a Catliolic 
 religion, but not proving that this religion, its principles and doctrines, were in 
 every age the same — in every age, the identical religion, which the Catholic be- 
 lieve* at present." It is the essence of the true religion to remain unchanged; 
 and to have desienderl.and to descend always, down the streamuf time, without 
 corruption or alteration. If, therefore, I unrlerlake rlistinrlly to prove, that the 
 Catholic religion of the present period is indeed, the true religion, then should 
 I also distinctly prove that it has never undergone iinv alterntion, and that it is 
 the same, which, revealed originally to mankind, has, during the course of eigh- 
 teen centuries, formed alwayt the object of the veaeratioo of the, orthodox be- 
 liever." vol. 2, p. 173. 
 
 C 4
 
 26 DEDATK OA Tllffi 
 
 " As it 5TU- tlie dis'ijn of GoJ, tliat llie true cliurcu slioiilti h.-. Catlinlii- ; lo it 
 tins also hin design, that the true church shouKl ulwavs be distiiituished by the 
 honorable iippfllation of Culholic: — as it ivas the will of Jesus Ciirist, that the 
 establi?-hinent whicli he formed, should <xtend through every nation, uiul subsist 
 through every nj;c; so also it was his will, that this establishment should be dig- 
 nifieil b_v a name corresponding to these gnat characteristic:. " I bdieve." the 
 apostles commanded the faithful in every age to say, " in the Iwh/ Catholic 
 Church," "by this name Catholic," says St. Axiiun, " 1 am rciaijied in the 
 Catholic church," "my name," adds St. Pacian, "is Christian; my surname 
 C.VTHOLIC; and l^Y riUiiSVKyA:ilv:, I am distinguished from all the sects of 
 heresy." Sermon on the catholicity of the church, page 195, vol. ii. liaft. 
 edit. 1«30. 
 
 It is certainly, my beloved fiiends, a very animating circumstance, to v'icwthe 
 immensity and the long duration of our cliurch; to see it stretching out its em- 
 pire through every climate; consolingby its benefits, and enlighteniMg by ils doc- 
 trines, the remotest corners of the universe: to see it existing through tlic long 
 lapse of so many age?, unmoved, while the strongest empires sink to ruin; and 
 unshaken, wiiile all tilings fall in deca)' around it. It is animating to remark it 
 triumphant over all the powers of darkness, and the exertionsof human malice; 
 combating often, it is true, with the storms of persecution and the artifices of 
 heresy- ; yet combating, always, to come off with victor^' ; riding through the tem- 
 pest, and exalted by the very means which had been levelled at its depression. 
 Ibid, page 198. 
 
 From this contemplation, my christian friends, we may derive the consoling 
 assurance, that happen or befal what may, though the billows of persecution 
 8well and the tide of error rage; every etlort to destroy the church shall turn 
 out fruitle.ss. The church, these scenes assure you, is an edifice protected by the 
 hand of the Almighty, a rock fixed on the basis of the divine power amid the 
 «ea of human life. The billows of persecution shall swell, the tide of error 
 dash against it in vain. They will no more move it, although tliey ma}-, in- 
 deed, sweep away many of its unguirded members, than the gentlest spray 
 will move the firmest mountain that the ocean laves. I shciuid be sorry to see 
 the misfortune happen, 3'et could I behold the most furious tempest gathering 
 without one fetllng of anxiety for the stability of the church. As the I'salmist 
 lays, "it should coriie to nothing, like the running loaler," (Ps. Ivii.) It would 
 prove but the preparation for fresh conquests. The security of the church amid 
 •torms, during the long interval of eighteen centuries, is alone sufficient assur- 
 ance of its security, amid the fury of fiiture tempeot. Ibidem, page 19.'}. 
 
 If it can be even proved that the Catholic church had not these 
 characteristics, we admit she is not the church of Christ. I shall go 
 to trial on this point. If she is ever ceased to teach the whole doc- 
 trine of Christ, to diffuse over all nations, the true christian precepts, 
 or if she has not had a larger body of professors, than any of the sects, 
 that separated in every successive age from her communion, then will 
 I yield the question. But it will try the ingenuity of the gentleman 
 to prove any such thing, and still more, to show in that case, what 
 church was catholic. This difficulty meets him at the very threshold. 
 [Here the time expired.] 
 
 Three o'clock, P. M. 
 Mr. Ca.MP.>3ELL rise*. 
 
 My learned and worthy opponent commenced his forenoon speech, 
 Baying that he found before him a more easy task than he had expect- 
 ed. Were it a question of rhetoric rather than of logic, I confess I 
 should have more to fear. He has been more accustomed than I, to 
 the display of that art. I am rather a matter of fact man, and logic 
 more than rhetoric has occupied my attention. 
 
 I apprehend, however, before this discussion is ended he may find 
 his task not quite so easy as he would seem to anticipate. And to me 
 the good book has suggested a caution which I hope always to remem-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 27 
 
 ber. It is happily couched in these words, " Let not him that buck- 
 leth on his armor boast as he that taketh it off." 
 
 But to examine his defence, so far as in it there is reference to my 
 speech, has he not made in the very first effort an unfortunate admis- 
 sion 1 The name Catholic he admits is generic and the name Roman 
 specific, — and that the term Roman only indicated the church in which 
 this catholic communion is to be enjoyed : that the universal church 
 is found in the particular, the genus in the species. Thus we can 
 have Greek catholic, English catholic, American catholic, as v.-ell 
 as Roman catholic. These particular universals are susceptible of 
 indefinite multiplication. And so the catholicity of Rome is specifi- 
 cally the same with that of England ! ! 
 
 His second admission is equally unfortunate. He did not seem to 
 perceive that he argued for me rather than against me, on the word 
 father. He said that it could not be understood literally. So said I. 
 How then must it be used but religiously 1 Call no ma.n your religious 
 or ecclesiastic Father. He has then fully conceded all that I ask. It 
 is then an absolute prohibition of the Roman Catholic notion of a 
 supreme holy father. To designate any person pope is then a viola- 
 tion of Christ's command. 
 
 The gentleman has admitted, somewhat reluctantly however, that 
 the Doway catechism is a standard work, and that the definition of 
 the church is infallibly correct. My argument hitherto has been to 
 shew that the supreme head called pope, being of the essential ele- 
 ments, nay the chief element of the Roman Catholic church, and not 
 found either in the bible or ecclesiastic history for ages after the chris- 
 tian era, the church of Rome is a sect in the true import of that 
 word, and not the mother and mistress of all churches, for she cannot 
 be older tiian her head, unless a body can exist without and before its 
 head, which is impossible. It is not the nature of that head, whether 
 political or ecclesiastic or both, but the simple fact of its existence 
 concerning which we enquire. The nature and claims of the head 
 may hereafter lie the subject of exaniinalion. That tlie Roman sect 
 is divided into four parties, touching the supremacy — one affirming 
 lliat the pope is tho fountain of all ])owrr |)oUtical and religious — 
 another t«,'actiing that lie has only ecclesiastic supremacy — a third 
 party affirming that bis ecclesiastic dominion is over all councils, per- 
 sons and things spiritual, and a fourth party limiting his jurisdiction 
 to a sort of executive presidency — is a proposition susceptible of 
 ample proof, and of much importance, but we wish it to be very 
 distinctly stated that the question now before us is the fact that a 
 head, or universal father, pope or patriarch, is not found in tlie Roman 
 empire, east or west, for six hundred years, and consequently that 
 during that time that church did not exist, whose four essential ele- 
 ments, are a pope or supreme head, liishops, pastors and laity. 
 
 I arn the mort; diffuse on this point because my learned opponent 
 seems to mistakr; the question or to confound it with another of a diffe- 
 rent category. He seems to lie squinting at infalli4)ility, aulliiirity, 
 order in the ministry, rather than looking \n the face the simple ques- 
 tion, wtu thrrr. n pope in any church for thi: first six centuries ? Authority 
 is not infallibility, nor is order, supremacy. I go for autiiority in tho 
 president of the I'nited States, but who infers thence tiiat I hold tho 
 president to be infallible I I go for order in the christian church, but 
 what has thiB to do with the supremacy of the bishop of Roraol
 
 28 DEBAT5 O.-V Tim 
 
 Why, I emphatically ask, does the bishop of Cincinnati confound th» 
 question of fact before us with that concerning the Lcvitical priest- 
 hood. I have not agitated such a question. 
 
 And what have my views of ciiurch order and government to do 
 with the question before us. Why drag these matters into discussion. 
 Did I not distinctly saj'^ tliat I came not here to defend the tenets of 
 any ])arty of Protestants, l)Ut the great principles of Protestantism? 
 And what have my views of church order to do with the questions at 
 issue! Of these however the gentleman is wholly misinformed. I am 
 the advocate of order, of a christian ministry, of bisiiops and deacons 
 in the church. Without order no society can exist, and therefore no 
 reasonable man can object citlicr to order or authority in the church. 
 But again I ask what is this to the question in debate ! 
 
 He gave us too a dissertation on the passage, " lovest thou me more 
 than these." This is certainly gratuitous at this time. I am glad 
 however the gentleman- has delivered himself on this text. But this 
 is not the question now. We are seeking for a head for the church, 
 a papal head for the church in the first ages, while our friend is ex- 
 pounding scriptures on other themes. 
 
 To the authority of Du Pin the gentleman seems to except. But 
 on what authority does he object] His works are certified by the 
 doctors of the Sorbonne and by the guardians of the Catholic press. 
 Will he say that he is not an authentic historian? Du Pin was born 
 and educated, lived and died and was buried in the Roman Catholic 
 church. The gentleman proved, two or three months ago, that general 
 La Fayette was a Roman Catholic because he was baptized in the 
 church of Rome and buried in consecrated ground. Certainly then 
 Du Pin was all this and more ! It matters not whether he was a Jan- 
 senist or Jesuit. Both orders have been at different times in good and 
 bad repute. Jansenists have sometimes been proscribed, and Jesuits 
 have been suppressed. But th'e question is not, was he a good Ca- 
 tholic, but was he an authentic historian ? For a good Catholic is one 
 thing, and a good historian is another. I wish the gentleman to 
 answer. (Bishop Purcell. 1 answer emphatically, he was not an au- 
 thentic historian.) 
 
 Then this gentleman and the bishop of Bardstown are at variance. 
 The latter gentleman, if I mistake not, admitted in a discussion pub- 
 lished in the Catholic paper of that place, that Du Pin was an authen- 
 tic historian. I have seen this work repeatedly quot^ed in discussions 
 between Romanists and Protestants, and I do not recollect to have 
 seen any thing advanced against his authenticity. Mr. Hughes of 
 Philadelphia, but on different grounds than those stated by my opponent, 
 did indeed object to him as a faithful witness in his controversy with 
 Mr. Brcckenridge. However while I wish it to go to the public that 
 bishop Purcell has objected to Du Pin as an autlientic historian, I will 
 distinctly state that I rely upon him in this controversy only so far as 
 he is sustained by other historians, and therefore I will only quote 
 him in such matters as I know can be sustained from other sources. 
 Other historians record the same fact, and many of the works which 
 Du Pin quotes are not only extant but accessible. 
 
 The word catholic the gentleman has stated that it is of high anti- 
 quity and found at the head of some books of the New Testament. 
 But how came it into the New Testament? Was it Robert Stephens 
 ef Paris that placed it there in the IGth century as a sort of general
 
 KOMAX CATHOLIC RELIGIO:;. 29 
 
 heading to certain epistles, or was it placed there by the apostles 
 themselves] 
 
 Touching the council of Nice and whether Sylvester had anything 
 to do with its convocation, may hereafter be worthy of discussion ; 
 at present this is not before us. The decree of the council and its 
 convocation are distinct things. 
 
 Of the texts relied on by me to dispose of the pretensions of supre- 
 macy, the gentleman has taken special exception to Ep. iv. 11. and 
 would have different orders of ecclesiastic powers, rather than g'fts 
 for the edification of the church and the fitting of saints for the work 
 of the ministrj', to be contained in that passage. But the text says 
 gifts and not lordships. Of these gifts vouchsafed by the ascended 
 Savior the first was apostles. " He gave first apostles, secondarily 
 prophets," and here again " he gave some apostles and some pro- 
 phets." No supremacy is expressed of an individual. It is not ranks 
 of authorities like civil or military functionaries, such as magistrates, 
 aldermen, constables, &c., but gifts of light and knowledge and grace, 
 the splendid gifts of the Holy Spirit. Gifts of teaching, preaching, ex- 
 horting, and setting up the tabernacle or cliurch. The apostles had 
 all authority and all gifts themselves; but they needed assistants and 
 a distribution of labor, and not an hierarchy, in laying the foundation 
 and in fitting saints for the work of the christian ministry. 
 
 Having now touched all the relevant points in the Bishop's opening 
 speech, I hasten to my argument. 
 
 On examination of the New Testament, the primitive fathers, the 
 councils both provincial and general, down to the close of the Gth cen- 
 tury, we do not find in the whole territory claimed by our opponents 
 as yet, the idea or name of a supreme head, pope, or vicar of Christ. 
 
 j\Iy learned antagonist has not produced any such document, and 
 doubtless he knows if there be any such authority now extant, and 
 would produce it. 
 
 The strong expressions of Saint Gregory in opposition to the title 
 shew what a singular novelty it was in Rome during "his pontifi- 
 cate," and his bold declaration not only of the arrogance and blas- 
 phemy of the title, hilt of its aspfcl to all the bishnps, as annulling 
 tlieir cfiuality, sulheicntly prove tliat he rigblly approc-iatcd its true 
 meaning and its hostility to the genius of that simi)licity and humility 
 which comportfid with the servants of Christ. So far tlien as we have 
 examined the evidence on iiand, the defence of the Bishnj), the argu- 
 ment as now developed stands tlnis : — a ])ope, or universal ])atriarcli, 
 is the first essential element of the Roman Catbolie sect. iJnt there 
 was no such personage in existence for GOO years after (/brist, there- 
 fore there was no church of Rome, in the sense of the creed, during 
 the first six centuries. 
 
 We are now prepared to narrate the circumstances whieh ushered 
 into being the ])ope of Rome. Mauritius the emperor of the K-aM <ii(^d 
 at the hand of Phocas a centurion of his own army. Mauritius fa- 
 vored the pretensions of the bishop of Constantinople, and turned a 
 deaf car to the importunities of Gregory on the subject of taking from 
 bishop John the title of universal father, so painful to the |)ride and 
 humility of the great Gregory. For the sainl had written to the em- 
 peror on the arrogance of .lolm, metroi)olilan of the great diocese of 
 the east. Mauritius was supplanted and the throne usurped by Pho- 
 cas. Gregory rejoiced at his Heath, and hailed the elevation of hit 
 c 2
 
 30 DEBATE ON THK 
 
 murderer to the throne. Gregory consecrated him, in the church 
 
 of St. John the Baptist at Constantinople, and Phocas, as a re- 
 ward for his consecration and favorable refrards, conferred upon the 
 successor of Gregory, Boniface the third, the title of universal patri- 
 arch in the very sense in which it had been repudiated by Gregory. 
 Thus in the year GOG two years after the death of the saint, the 
 first pope was placed in the chair of the Galilean fisherman, if in- 
 deed Peter had ever sat in a chair inKonie. 
 
 Concerning the consecration of Phocas, Mr. Gibbon thus remarks : 
 " The seiiati- and els rjiv obeyed his summon*, ami as soon as the p,itii:urh 
 was assiirevi of'liis orlhotlox btlief, lie consecrated the successful usurper in the 
 church of St. John tiie Baptist. On the tliird day, amidst the acclamations of a 
 thoug^htless people, Phocas made his public entry in a chariot drawn by four 
 white horses: the revolt of the troops was rewarded by a lavish donation, and 
 the new sovereign, after visiting t!ie palace, beliel 1 from his throne the frames 
 of the hipp )droMu." (iibbon's Derline and Fall Rom. f^nip. vol. viii. p. 269. 
 
 But the infidel has good reason to laugh at the saint, where he re- 
 cords the exultation of Gregory at the death of Mauritius. 
 
 "Asa subject and a christirin it was the duty of Gregory to acquiesce in the 
 established governuient; but the joyful applause with which he salutes the for- 
 tunes of the assassin, has sullied with inddible disgrace the character of the 
 saint. The successor of tl:e apostles might have inculcated with decent firm- 
 ness the guilt of blood, and liic necessity of repentance: he is content to cele- 
 brate the deliverance of the jieople and the fall of the oppressor; to rejoice that 
 the piety and benignity of Phocas have Ijeen raised by Providence to the imperial 
 throne; to pray that his hands may be strengthened against all his enemies ; and 
 to express a wish, perhaps a prophecy, that after a long and triumphant reign, he 
 may be trinsferred from a tt-mporal to an evtrlasting kingdom." Id. ib. p. 211. 
 
 It looks indeed as if Gregory had permitted the recollection of the 
 conduct of Mauritius towards his rival to mingle with his exultations 
 at the elevation of Phocas. When we recollect that Mauritius, his 
 wife, four sons and three daughters were immolated at the shrine of 
 the ambition of Phocas because he feared a rival, we are astonished 
 that saint Gregory could have called heaven and earth to rejoice in his 
 exaltation to the throne of the Csesars. His words are : 
 
 " Btnignitalcm vestrte pietatis ad impcriale fastigium pcrvenisse gaudemus. 
 Lretentur cij^li et exultet terra, et ''e vestris benignis a'fibus universT! r( ipublicm 
 populus nunc ii=que vehementer afflictus hilarescat," &c. Greg:. I. xi. ep. 38, ind. vi. 
 
 It is not so honorable to the successors of Boniface the third, that 
 the title of pope in its supreme import, was conferred by so mean a 
 wretch as Phocas the usuper and murderer, and rather as a reward for 
 the temporizing and easy virtue of Gregory the first. Boniface, though 
 in the catalogue of popes he stands the GGth in descent from Peter, was 
 in truth the first pope of liome in the sense which is placed in the 
 Catechisms and standards of the present church of Rome. 
 
 As yet the power was only ecclesiastic. But power is naturally 
 cumulative, and especially ecclesiastic. Let any person be imagin- 
 ed to wear at his girdle the keys of heaven, and the sword of spiritual 
 power, let him have kings and princes bowing at his footstool, and 
 we shall soon see him like Napoleon, stretching out his hand not only 
 to grasp the gorgeous crown of ecclesiastic but of political power. 
 
 But to complete the story of the origin of the papal power we must 
 add a few words on the assumptions of Saint Zachary, or Stephen the 
 Second. Pepin the father of Charlemagne was in the cabinet of 
 Childeric the king of France in those days. His master was a feeble 
 prince and he was an ambitious minister. He knew the power of the 
 pope, and before he dared to seize the throne of his master he deemed
 
 ROMAN catholic; keligiox. 31 
 
 it politic to consult the vicar of Christ. He placed himself before him 
 in this casuistic style. " Sir," said he, " whether is he that has the 
 name of prince without the power, or he who has the power without 
 the name, the rightful sovereign of a nation V The pope answered 
 him according to his wish. He was then absolved from all self cri- 
 mination, he seized the crown of his master, and rewarded the pope 
 with some temporal power: — certain states in Italy which by his son 
 Charles the great were augmented, till he had the dominion of the 
 ancient Heruli — the Ostrogoths and the Exarchate of Ravcnnah su- 
 peradded to his spiritual jurisdiction. Then did he assume the triple 
 crown and the two swords, and stood forth in full attire as filling all 
 the prophetic characters of the supreme head of that politico-eccle- 
 siastic corporation called the church of Rome. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Ila'fpast 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 Bishop Purcei.l. 
 
 Fellow citizens — My friend objects to my explanation of the term 
 " Roman Catholic," He observes that it has turned out no explana- 
 tion at all. His difficulty of apprehension on this particular point, is to 
 me, however, perfectly intelligible. The very name of our church is 
 a proof of its unity and universality ; and this, as he dislikes it, he 
 cannot, of course, understand. The word 'catholic' in ancient days 
 was used, as many other old and new words in Webster's dictionary, 
 for more purposes than one. Its true and principal sense was easily 
 ascertained in its application to the whole catholic church of Christ. 
 It was also used to designate the authority of certain chief national 
 churches, to distinguish them from inferior churches in the same dis- 
 tricts, and to mark tlie superiority of archbishops and patriarchs over 
 their brethren in the Episcopacy. The name 'of "Roman Catholic" 
 shewed the bond of union which bound all these various churches in 
 the profession of the faith of the chief see of the entire christian 
 world. Hence it always brought to tlie believer's mind, in every 
 clime, the church which was the head, — the great, primitive, senior 
 church, the church of Rome ; and as more people became converted 
 to the faith, they were called by their different and distinct appella- 
 tions, as English Roman Catholics — .\mericau lioman Catholics — 
 French Roman ("allu'lics, &c. 
 
 As to the prohibition froni calling any man ^ Father,^ &c. I said it 
 was not meant literally, and this he seizes as an admission that it is 
 a prohibition from calling " Eallier" in an ecclesiastical sense. 'I'liis 
 may be true or not, but it does not prohibit us from calling the head 
 of our church " father" as one who cherishes, instructs, and otherwise 
 acts the part of a father towards us; as b(! who adnijts an orjiban 
 child is, ill a figurative sense, his fiitber, thontrh not literally married 
 to his mother. 'I'hc gentleman cannot tiiereforo understand me as 
 admitting his argument in my previous explanation. But this is mat- 
 ter too insignifieant to waste more time on it. 
 
 Mr. Campbell tells ns lb*' cburcli had no bead for GOO years. This 
 is a 8lrang«» re[)reHeiitatioii ! The cluireh was then a liendless body. 
 I nf:ver heard of a liody without a licad, (jii wbieh all the members 
 depend for the vital influences. But was there indeed no head to tho 
 church 1 Was not Jesus Christ the head ? and I say further that his 
 servant on earth, his hnmble servant, was the pope. The language 
 of Christ himself, " on this rock will I build my church," refers not
 
 32 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 to the divine head of the church in Heaven, but to the representative 
 of his divine commission on earth. I afhrm that what Christ thoug^ht 
 necessary in the days of the apostles, is necessary now^ ; and the 
 more remote we are from tiiat day, the more necessary does it become. 
 Jesus Christ well knew that there must be scandals and errors; and 
 he determined his church should not be left headless. We know this 
 head exists and where it resides ; but we are not slaves in the Ca- 
 tholic church. We acknowledge no mere human authority between 
 us and God. W"e are as free and untrammeled as any people under 
 heaven. It is not the man, but the authority, we respect. 'I'he man 
 may err, and if the pope claims a power not belonging to him, we 
 soon remind him of his mistake. How this lesson has been taught 
 to a few popes, the history of the church will show. 
 
 My friend now contradicts the statement he made to-day. He first 
 argued that the introduction of patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, 
 deacons, and so on, into the church, was of exotic growth — and, as if he 
 had forgotten what he had previously denied, he turns round, and tells 
 us, nearly in the same breath, that he goes for bishops and deacons and 
 orders. So far then, Mr. Campbell is a good Catholic, and I congra- 
 tulate him on this advance towards the truth. [Symptoms of applause 
 in the audience, were here manifested, but were immediately checked 
 by the moderators ; and bishop Purcell besought them, once for all, 
 to abstain from the least demonstration of the kind during the debate. 
 It was improper in a discussion of this character, and the house being 
 greatly crowded, much inconvenience would follow, and the debate 
 could not go on.] 
 
 As to the authority he has produced here (Du Pin's Ecclesiastical 
 history) I will remark that I consider Du Pin a learned man. I would 
 even select him as a splendid illustration of the strength imparted to 
 the human intellect by the Catholic intellectual discipline. He was 
 truly a prodigy of learning and of precision of style. But there was 
 a plague spot, a gangrene upon him, which must forever neutralize his 
 authority as a Catholic. Before the gentleman pronounced his name 
 we had a flourish of rhetoric, and a labored eulogy upon my tact in 
 managing this controversy. For my part, I must say that I am quite 
 a novice in these matters — I am not accustomed to debate. My friend 
 has complimented me upon oratorical powers to which I lay no claim. 
 If I have any ad vantage, I owe it not to practice but to the force of truth. 
 
 Du Pin, on whom my friend relies as Catholic authority, recognized 
 by the church, was in constant correspondence with Wake, the arch- 
 bishop of Canterbury. He tried every stratagem to bring about a 
 re-union of the church of England, and the church of Rome. Leib- 
 nitz, and many a distinguished name, had previously labored in the 
 same vocation. But Revd. Dr. Du Pin's motives were, unfortunately, 
 suspicious. He proposed as the basis of the re-union, the abolition 
 of auricular confession, of religious vows, of the Lenten fast and ab- 
 stinence, of the pope's supremacy, and of the celibacy of the clergy. 
 He was himself, like Cranmer, secretly married; and after his death, 
 his pretended wife came secretly forward to assert her right to his 
 goods and chattels. And this is Catholic authority ! 
 
 It is said these papers were discovered in his study after his death. 
 But he was censured by pope Clement XI. even during his life-time; 
 and when, as I have stated, Louis XIV. removed him from among the 
 Doctors of the Sorbonne, Clement approved the act.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 83 
 
 If my friend gan produce Roman Catholic authority, let him do so. 
 But let him not produce one that approaches with a mask. The 
 authority of Du Pin I have challenged on just grounds; but this has 
 nothing- to do with the views I have stated upon the great question 
 we are discussing. 
 
 We are told that the commission spoken of in Ephesians, 4th 
 chapter, "To some he gave apostles, &c." confers, not powers, but 
 simply gifts. This I deny. St. Paul tells us authority was given to 
 the rulers of his church by Christ, not for their sakes but that we may 
 be no longer children tossed to and fro by every xcind of doctrine. They 
 were not, then, merely gifts, they were powers and authorities to re- 
 gulate the church, and to rule the people of God. These commissions 
 are the foundation of the church established on earth by Christ, before 
 he ascended on high. They were necessary, as the more solid parts 
 of a temple are first laid, that the whole building may afterwards 
 have strength, consistency, and symmetry. I deny that the church 
 ever has been or could be without a foundation. The foundation is 
 at least as necessary as the superstructure. Christ made Peter, there- 
 fore, the rock of his church, and was himself the corner stone whereon 
 that rock rested, as did the whole edifice securely rest upon the rock. 
 
 Why has Mr. Campbell anticipated the subject of the third or 
 fourth day of this discussion, and brought up the pope as the man of 
 sin — the sea monster of Daniel — the youngest horn of the beast] &c. 
 For aught I know, he may prove the pope to be the sea serpent — no 
 doubt his powers of logic are adequate to the task. We shall see. 
 
 Again — the pope is not a tyrant, nor does he claim the title of Uni- 
 versal Father, in tiie sense in which Gregory rebuked John for claiming 
 it. Mr. Campbell has solved the question beforehand, in stating the 
 arrogant pretensions of the bishop of C. P. who pretended that all au- 
 thority proceeded from him. I do not derive all my authority from the 
 pope. The bishops of the United States consult together. They propose 
 candidates for the vacant sees; and they send to Rome the names of 
 three clergymen, marked according to their judgment, "Worthy, 
 Worthier, Worthiest." The pope generally trusts to their wisdom, 
 and acquiesces in their choice. It was thus that a certain testimony 
 of my fitness to succeed the venerable Fcnwick, as bishop of this 
 diocese, was forwarded to Rome. The sovereign pontifl", Gregory 
 XVI. ratified the selection of the prelacy of the United States, and 
 expedited the brief, or letters, in rirtue of which I was ordained a 
 bishop ; but my power to consecrate, to baptize, and to perform other 
 episcopal functions, comes not from the pope; it comes like that of 
 the apostles, directly from God. 
 
 There are other denominations, besides the Catholic, that contend 
 for the necessity of apostolical succession of orders and mission, and 
 these too are the objects of my friend's sarcasm. I select only two-^ 
 the Episcopalians and the German Reformed. 
 
 In the last number of his Millennial Harbinger, in speaking of the 
 Episcopalian bishop Otey of Tennessee, he asks "why is t)isliop Otey 
 silent T He either feels that his castle of Kpiscopalianism has been 
 demolished by the editor of the Harbinger (Mr. Campbell) or he does 
 not. If he feels that it has been overthrown, as an honest man he 
 ought to acknowledge it. But if he still thinks that he is adorning 
 ^'' the doctrine of God hy sustaining Elpiscopalianism, let him shew 
 his strength to such as wish to read both sides of the question. It is
 
 34 DJJBATB 0.\ THE 
 
 faith delivered 
 
 an apostolic admonition to " contend earnestly for thg 
 to the saints." . If he is sent of God, as he professes t.o'be, as a faith- 
 ful watchman on Zion's walls, he should not remain rnute ; but cry 
 aloud, seeing his opinions have been politely assailed. Percontator.'* 
 
 Answer.- — Many reasons might be imagined for bishop Otcy's si- 
 lence, but I will venture upon only one, viz. that like M. de La Motte 
 (I presume the witty and pious bishop of Amiens) he is waiting for a 
 reply to his silc/icc. IIow, &c. 
 
 Again — Mr. Lancellot Bell, addressing the editor, Mr. Campbell 
 (yid. Mil. Harbinger, p. 570.) says " I accompanied brother L. to 
 Cavetown, where he addressed the citizens, &c. Two of the "called 
 and sent" of the German lieformed church, considering, I suppose, 
 their " craft in danger," came to the place, and I spoke against these 
 things, contradicting, who were going — to express it in. the language 
 of some of the people, to " lick us up like salt," &c. &c. 
 
 Mr. Campbell, therefore, has changed his tone; he is now in favor 
 of orders ; and this change has apparently taken place withiH a few 
 days. 
 
 I have proved that the headship of the church was no new thing 
 in the beginning of the fourth century. Du Pin spoke of the decision 
 of the council of Nice, respecting the contest Jbetween the bishops 
 of Alexandria and of Rome, but said that this decision of the council 
 did not disprove the primacy of Rome, so that this doctrine is at least 
 as old as the year 318, when Sylvester of Rome presided by his 
 legate Osius of Cordova at the council of Nice. This shows that the 
 authority of Rome was then recognized. He spoke of the council of 
 Chalcedon. I have here an authentic historian recognij;ed by the Ca- 
 tholics, and one who tells sharp truths of individual Catholics, when 
 he conceives them to be in the wrong. It is Barronius. In his Annals, 
 year of Christ 451, of pope Leo, 12th, twenty seventh of Valentine and 
 2nd of Marcian, he says that in this council the authority of the see 
 <5f Peter was recognized. 360 bishops met in this council. Circum- 
 stances not permitting pope Leo to assist at it in person, he sent three 
 legates, two bishops and a priest, to preside in his name. At the first 
 session Paschasinus, bishop of Lillibeum, and one of the legates of the 
 pope, preferred charges against Dioscorus, patriarch of Alexandria, for 
 his uncanonical conduct in the conventicle of Ephesus. 
 
 Dioscorus, thus accused and convicted, was compelled to leave his 
 seat and sit in an inferior place in the middle of the assembly. Sub- 
 sequently a sentence of deposition was pronounced against him ; and 
 as his guilt was manifest, he left the assembly and appeared no more. 
 The fathers of the council unanimously exclaimed that the doctrinal 
 decisions of Leo were those of Peter himself — " Petrus per Leonem 
 locutus est" — Peter hath spoken by the mouth of Leo. (vid. Reeves, 
 1st vol. 263.) the fathers of the council directed to St. Leo asynodical 
 letter, in which they acknowledge him for the interpreter of St. Peter, 
 for their head and guide." (vid. Barronius, ibid.) Now here is the au- 
 thority of the first general council of Nice, as quoted by Labbe. 
 Greek bishops say : 
 
 COL'N'CILS. 
 
 " The Roman church has always had the primacy." (Labbe, t. 2. p. 4L) 
 The second general council and first of Constantinople says : 
 " Let the bishop of Constantinople have the first share of honor after the bish- 
 op of Rome." (Alexandria was entitled to the second rank.)
 
 KOM-^VN CATHOLIC RKLTGIOX. 35 
 
 The third general council of Ephesus says : ■ 
 
 '• St. Heter, trie prince and liead of the apostle?, the Ibundation of the Catholic 
 church, received the keys of the kingdom Vroin our Lord Je«us Christ, and the 
 power of loosing and of binding sin was given to him, which to the present 
 time, as it iv.r lias done, subsists and exeicist s judgnuiit in his successors." 
 
 The fourth general council of Chakedoh, writing to St. Leo, says : 
 
 " We therefore entreat you, to honor our judgment by your decrees; and as we 
 have adhered to our heacl in good things,' so let your supremacy fujply what 
 becoineth (or is wanting) for thy children." 
 
 The council of Florence in which the Greek and Latin bishops were 
 present, thus speaks : 
 
 " We define that the holv apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold the prima- 
 cy over the entire earth, and that he is the successor of the blessed Peter, the 
 prince of the apostles, the true vicar of Christ, and the head of the whole church," 
 6:c. T. 13. p. 515. 
 
 The general council of Trent, speaks in the following terms : 
 
 "The sovereign pontiiis, in virtue of the supreme power delivered to them 
 over the entire church, had n right to reserve the judgment of certain moiiB 
 grievous crinxs to tluir own tribunal." 
 
 Melancthon holds the following language, as quoted by Bossuet in 
 
 his history of the variations. L. 5, n. 24. 
 
 "Our people agree, that the ecclesiastical polity, in which are recognized 
 superior bishops of many churches and the bishop of Rome superior to all bish- 
 ops, is permitted. Thus there is no contest respecting the supremacy of the 
 fiope and the authority of bishops, and also the pope and the bishops could easi- 
 y preserve this authority, for it is necessary for a church to have leaders to 
 mamtain order, to keep an eye upon those called to the ecclesiastical state, and 
 upon the doctrine of the priests, and to exercise ecclesiastical judgment, so that 
 if there were no bishops we would have to make them. The monarchy of the 
 pope would also serve much to preserve amonpt many nations the unity of 
 doctrine; wherefore we could easily agree as to the supremacy of the pope if we 
 could agree in every thingclsr." 
 
 Leibnitz, as quoted by De Starck, p. 22, speaks as follows: 
 
 " Ai G'oc/is the (lod of order, and as by divine appointment, the body of the 
 only, apostolic. Catholic church can be maintained by a single, hierarchical and 
 universal government, it follows, that there must be a supreme spiritual chief, 
 who shall be confined witliin proper bounds, established by the same (divine) 
 right, and invested with all the power and dictatorial authority necessary for 
 the preservation of the church." 
 
 FATICF.nS. 
 
 St. Irnnaeus of Lyons, the disciple of St. Polycarp, who himself ap- 
 pears to have been consecratrd by St. .lohn the Evangelist, repeatedly 
 urges this argument against his contemporary heretics. He says : 
 
 " We can count up those who were appointed bishops in the churches by 
 the apostles and their successors down to us, none of whom taught this doctrine. 
 Dutas it would be tedious to enumerate the succession of bishops in the differ- 
 ent rhiirchrs, we refer you to the tradition of that greatest, most ancient, and 
 universally known church, founded at Home by St. I'eter and St. I'aul, and 
 which ha* been ])reserved thrre through the succession of its bishops, down to 
 the nresinl lime." 
 
 Tertuilian, who also flourished in the same century (year 150), argues 
 in the same manner and challenges certain heretics in tiiesc terms: 
 
 "Letlbeui produi-e lh<- ori|;in of their church ; l«t thou display the fuicession 
 of their bisliop", S'l that tin: first of them may appear to have Ijeen orduincd by 
 an apnslnlir mnv, \\\i:> per«vi r< d in th' ir oininnnion." 
 
 St. Athanasius writes to St. Felix, the Roman Pontiff: 
 " For tliii |)urpf)sc Christ ijlaced you and vour predecessors to guide the ark 
 •nd to have the care of all trie churches, that von may help u»." 
 
 St. Cyprian, in his 55th Epistle, holds the following language: 
 "They dare to sail and carry l< tier* to the choir of Fcler and the priDcipal 
 church, whence tacrrdotal unity proceed*."
 
 3(J DEBATE ON TME 
 
 St. Aufrustin, who wrote in thn fifth century, mentions the following 
 among otlior motives of erodihility in favor of the Catholic religion. 
 
 "Tlitre are many other tliiiifjs wliicli keep luc in the bosuni of the Catholic 
 church. The agreement ol tliltereiit people and nations kee|is me tliere. The 
 authority e!ital)lislie(l by miracles, nourished by liopc, increased by charity, and 
 confirnu'd by antiquity, keeps me there. The succi ssion of bisiiops in the see of 
 St. Peter, tlie apostle (to whom our Lord after his resurrection, committed his 
 sheep to be fed) down to the present bisliop, keeps nie there. Finally the very 
 name of Cathoijc which, among so many heresies, this church alone possesses, 
 keeps nie there." 
 
 St. Jerome in his 4th Epistle to pope Damasus says: 
 
 "I, following no leailer but (lirlst, am in communion with your holiness, that 
 is, with the chair of Peter. Whoever {;athereth not with you scattereth, that is, 
 whoever is not of Christ is of anti-Christ." 
 
 This is, in substance, the testimony of the bishops throughout the 
 world, in every age to the present time. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'' clock, P. 31. 
 Mr. Campbell rose and said : 
 
 On the subject of the emendation of the term Roman Catholic, by 
 prefixiniT the word English, &c., I am willing that my friend should 
 nave all the advantage to be derived from that explanation. I am 
 willing that he should appear before the public with that explanation, 
 if he thinks it can help the matter. On the same principle he may 
 say the Philadelphia Pittsburg church of Cincinnati. The church, 
 I argued, had no mortal head for six hundred years. He certainly 
 could not have understood me as denying that Christ was the head 
 of his church ! I admit that Christ is the immortal head of the church 
 which is his body, and Christ is her only head. Christ's church re- 
 quires a living and omnipresent head. She needs not two heads, for 
 her head is the head of all principality and power. Can the pope be 
 omnipresent, keeping order in all his dominions] 
 
 I was surprised at the gentleman's hypothesis, that if I argued that 
 the church had no visible and human head for six hundred years, I 
 then asserted that Christ was not the head of his church. I spoke 
 not of Christ, but of the great hierarch on earth, who claims to be the 
 fountain of all power and authority in the church. Could he not 
 understand me 1 
 
 The gentleman says, that the Catholics are as free as others. I ask 
 have they the same liberty to read the Bible, to think and act for 
 themselves, as have the Protestants ] I am sorry that he seemed to 
 take advantage of my acknowledging myself a friend to bishops and 
 deacons in the church. In my enumeration of the ditfercnt orders, in 
 the present Roman church, I mentioned ./^rcA-bishops and .^rcA-deacons ; 
 but he did not hear me say bishops and deacons. They were on pur- 
 pose loft out of that enumeration, that I might not fall into the error 
 which he has imagined for me. 
 
 I dispose of the gentleman's extract from the Millennial Harbinger 
 and of his learned remarks upon them, by informing him that he ha3 
 mistaken the writer : I am not the author of the article in question. 
 
 Still I must ask, why this evasion of the question in debate? Why 
 seek to excite the odium theologicum, on account of some distorted 
 theory unjustly attributed to mo — on subjects, too, wholly foreign to 
 this debate ! Are these the weapons by which my learned opponent 
 is connppllod to defend the " mo/A"/- and mfnfre^s of all chtirches" from
 
 EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 87 
 
 the charge of unscriptural, and unfounded assumptions'? Let no one 
 imagine, however, tliat I am at all opposed to order and government 
 in the church. As far as concerns oversight, or the having of bishops 
 to preside over the flock, I am an Episcopalian. lam for having pres- 
 byters or elders in every church. I do not believe in a church without 
 presbyters or bishops. So far I am both a Presbyterian and an Epis- 
 copalian. 
 
 On the subject of the primacj'' of Rome, the gentleman quoted Bar- 
 ronius, and snarled at Du Pin. But it is too late for any bishop of 
 Rome, or of England to stand up in this nineteenth century and tell 
 us that Du Pin is not an authentic historian. My friend intimates 
 that the certificates in the preface were suborned. What a charge on 
 the learned and venerable author of this work ! 
 
 \_Bish(tp Purcell here said, that those certificates being in the hook pro- 
 ved nothing : — that they might have been put there by the printer. "l 
 
 I will now read these attestations and vouchers that you may judge 
 how gratuitous arc the objections and insinuations of the bishop. 
 
 THE APPROBATION OF THE DOCTORS OF THE SORBONNE. 
 "The whole world lias openly declared the esteem which they think due to 
 the JS'ew History of Ecclesiastical Writers, that we could not but be sensible 
 of the complaisance shewn to us, since the judgment we had formed of it was 
 followed, supported and authorized by that of the public. 
 
 "All those who have already read them, will here find what will recall to their 
 raemory many things they may have forgotten, and will see with pleasure, that 
 our author has reduced their doctrines to certain principles, by whicli they show 
 their solidity and coherence. Those who wish to read them will here meet 
 with what will save them much time and trouble; and those that are engaged in 
 that long and wearisome journey, will at least have tlie advantage of a faithful 
 and experienced guide, who will lead them only through paths equally sate and 
 known. Both the one and the other will meet with a piece of criticism which 
 is always clear, prudent, and upright ; distinguishes what is certain from that 
 which is false or doubtful; never precipitates the judgment, nor lavs down sini- 
 ple conjectures in place of demonstrative proofs; gives to every thing what it 
 merits, purely on its own account ; and the better to attend to reason, banishes 
 all prejudices and looks at nothing in its search after truth, but truth itself; nor 
 condenms, only, where it cannot excuse. 
 
 "Given at Paris, August 18lb, 1688. 
 
 HLAMPIGNON, Rector of St. Merris. 
 IlIDKUX, K< ctor of St. Innocents." 
 
 AI'PRonATION OF THE ROVAF- CENSOR. 
 " By the order of my lord (Jhanrellor; 1 have read a book, entitled "A History 
 of the churcli and ff Krclcsiaslical Jlulhors in the sixteenth century " bv Mes- 
 sieur Lewis Kllifs Du I'in, 1'ries.t, Doctor of Divinity of the Faculty of I'nris, 
 and Regius Professor of I'hiloso|)hy ; Containing th<' History of the Church, 
 and of ecclesiastical Authors, and "from the year 1550, to the year 1600; in 
 which I find nothing to hinder its b'^ing printed. 
 "Given this 18lh i\:\y of January, 170:}. 
 
 BLAMPIGNON, Curate of St. Merris." 
 
 APPROnATION OF THF, rX)CTORS OF DIVIMTY OF THE FACUETV OF I'ARIS. 
 " VVc whose names are under written. Doctors of Divinity of the I'nculty of 
 Divinity of I'nris, nrtily, that we have examined a book, entitled "A History 
 of the Chiirrh, and of i-irlesiastinil Authors, in the sixteenth cenlurv;" b\ Meg- 
 tienr Lewis Lilies Du Pin, Priest, Doctor of Divmity of the Family of Paris, 
 and Rrgitis Profossor of Philosojjliy : and that we havi; found nothing therein 
 contrary to the G«tholic faith, or to ^oorl manners. In assurance whereof, wa 
 have set our haadi this 20th day of Jannarv, 170;{. 
 
 IU,ANlPlGi\Oi\, Curat* of St. Merrii. 
 HIDEUX, CurBt«of St. Innorfntg." 
 D 
 
 ^Vyillit
 
 38 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 I put it now to the good sense of my audience, whether such testi- 
 monies arc to be set aside, by saying that the printer may have forged 
 or printed tliem on his own responsibility. 
 
 The divine Avarrant for tlic primacy of the pope is not the question 
 on which the gentleman read from Barronius. There are two things 
 in every historj', — the statement of facts, and the comment on those 
 facts. The opinion of the historian is like the opinion of the reader; 
 but the facts stated are common property ; and these are the proper 
 materials of his work. Barronius does not, however, on the point in 
 debate, state a fad contrary to Du Pin. There were, indeed, prima- 
 cies at Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem. But 
 the primacy of a metropolitan, and the doctrine of Sn universal pri- 
 macy over all metropolitans at any one place, is a different matter. I 
 could not understand in what sense he meant to be understood when 
 he said Gregory could not go for primacy in " that sense." Was 
 there a peculiar mysterious meaning attached to the claim or title 
 which Gregory reprobated 1 It has not been proved that any contem- 
 porary understood it so. I affirm that there was not an intelligent 
 Catholic of that day who understood the title of universal patriarch, 
 in any other sense than that in which, it is understood among us now. 
 The person first established in the primacy of Rome exercised a uni- 
 versal superintendcncy over the church exactly similar to that first 
 claimed by the bishop of Constantinople. 
 
 My friend says, ' the author from whom he read you states the fact 
 of such a primacy early in the Roman Church.' If we examine the 
 authority we shall see, it is nothing but tlic opinion of a fallible ma*!; 
 and that opinion contrary to all ancient history. I affirm that there 
 is no ecclesiastical historian of authority, who attests the fact, which 
 he is desirous to prove. It is one thing to state a fact, as a historian, 
 and another to state an opinion or commentary on a fact. The ques- 
 tion before us, is not the metropolitan primacy of Rome, or Antioch, 
 or Alexandria ; but the universal primacy of the whole church ! 
 
 I admit, as to the council of Nice, what it was said Du Pin asser- 
 ted, viz. ' that the sixth canon does not deny the primacy of Rome.' 
 But Du Pin goes further, — (and why did not the gentleman read all 
 that Du Pin asserts'?) 1 read it all. I told the whole truth respect- 
 ing it — the gentleman has told you but the half of it — Du Pin says 
 " this canon does not preclude the idea :" but " ncither,^^ says he, ^^does 
 it establish z7." I am for quoting the whole authority. Du Pin, as a 
 Catholic, was endeavoring to find some authority for supporting the 
 antiquity of the primacy of the see of Rome. He is examining the 
 canons of the comicil carefully, and he says that though this canon 
 does not preclude tlie primacy, "vet neither does it establish it." 
 It afforded him nothing for or against it. And what other decree or 
 council did establish it 1 ! That ig a secret the bishop will never 
 reveal. 
 
 Let us now return to my argument. I left off at the year 750, and 
 was in pursuit of the day, when the present church of Rome began. 
 I hasten to establish it. 
 
 It would be both tedious and unnecessary to read, or narrate the 
 quarrels between Nicholas of Rome and Photius of ^Constantinople, 
 on the vital question who shall be the greatest 1 wt^t greatly pre- 
 pared the way for the grand schism. We have not time for this, as 
 we are now, before we sit down, ti^give you the day and date of the
 
 ROMA^• CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 39 
 
 separation of the Roman church from the Greek church, which must 
 be regarded as the day of her separate existence, when she became 
 what she now is, a schism, or sed. 
 
 There was a violent contest between the patriarch of Constantinople 
 and the patriarch of Rome, or pope, if you please, (for I state em- 
 phatically, that the idea of a supreme head of the church had never 
 been digested in the east, and though the eastern church may have 
 submitted, or acquiesced for the time being, she never did consent to 
 it). The promotion of the layman Photius, gifted and splendid as 
 he was, to the primacy of Constantinople, greatly vexed his holiness 
 of Rome. Indeed, from the time of Victor, bishop of Rome, A. D. 
 197, who assumed to exercise jurisdiction out of his proper diocese, 
 in respect to the observance of Easter, there never was a cordial feel- 
 ing of unity, or co-operation between the eastern and western por- 
 tions of the church. The arrogance of Victor, called for strong ex- 
 pressions of insi^)ordination on the part of the Asiatic brethren, who 
 claimed for themselves as much license to dictate to the western, as 
 he had to the eastern church. 
 
 The " Catholic" body was not yet divided into two great masses. 
 Photius had charge of the church of Constantinople. Nicholas of 
 Rome was indignant that a layman should hold the high dignity of 
 patriarch of the eastern church, however the emperor and the church 
 might think. To make matters worse, they excommunicated each 
 other, which laid the foundation of dissentious and bad feelings, which 
 to this very day, never have been atoned. For the jealousies and ri- 
 valries of these two bishops never slumbered nor slept, till the church 
 was divided into what have since been called the Greek and Ijatin 
 churches. All iiistorians, give substantially the same account of this 
 matter. I will read an extract or two from Du Pin. 
 
 "riiou;^li tin: Latin aiiO Grcfck cliurchi s were nut in clusi; comiiiunion with each 
 other ever since the allair of Photius, yet tlir y did not proceed to an open rup- 
 ture till the tiiut- of pope Leo IX. and oi Michael Ccrularius, patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople. This breach beijan by a letter which the latter wrote in the year 
 1053, in his own name, and in the name of Leo archbishop of Acridia and of 
 all Bulgaria, to John bishop "Of Trani in Jlpiilin, that he niii;ht communicate it 
 to the pope and to all the w<stern church. In this letter tluy reproved the Lat- 
 ins, (1) Iiecause they made use of unleavened bread in the c« lebrntion of the 
 euchnrist. (2) Hcraune tUcy (nsted on Saturdays in Lent. (3) Because they 
 ent the blood of beasts, and things strangled. (4) Because they did not sing 
 Jillehiiah in Lent." &c. fcc. Vol. ii. p. 234. 
 
 The patriarch of Constantinople first anathematized Leo IX. ec- 
 clesiastically cur.sed liim and his party, and this may have provoked 
 severer measures against the Greeks than were at first contemplated 
 by the Latins. It is, however, an important fact, that the Greeks were 
 the first exaiinrnitnirutiirs, 
 
 'I'iic pope of Rornc! sent three legates to (Jonstantinople, under pre- 
 tence of liealing the divisions and strifi-s existing, who had, secretly 
 in their pockrts, a bull of excommunication against tlie patriarch and 
 his party. 'I'iiey were instructed to exiiort liiiu \o i/irld ; but if tliey 
 found him incorrigihb-, they were to fulminate against iiim tlie dread 
 anathema. After a fruitless attempt to bring over the patriarch by 
 mild means, they entered tlie ehurcli of St. Snpliia, at noon day, on 
 the IGlh of .Fuly, in the year lO.'ii, and mounting the altar read aloud 
 the bull of excommimication, before ibe iicopie, anfl thi'U departed, 
 shaking off tlie dust of their feet against the patriarch, his city and 
 people. The bull speakR on this wise :
 
 40 DEBATE ON THK 
 
 "The Holy Apostolic see of Rome,' which istbechiif of the whole world, 
 to which as to thu head belongs in a more especial manner the care of all the 
 churches; has st nt us to this roval city in tlic quality of its kgatts, for the welfare 
 and peace of the church, that as it is written, we sliould go down and see whe- 
 ther the cries which pierce its ears from this great city be true or no. 
 
 Let therefore the emperors, clergy, senate and people of this city of Constan- 
 tinople know, that we have here found more good to excite our joy, than evil 
 to raise our sorrow. For as to the supporters of the empire, and the principal 
 citizens, the city is wholly christian and orthodox: but as for Michael, who 
 took upon him the false title of patriarch, and his adherents, we have 
 found that they have sown discord and heresy in the midst of this city * 
 ■* * because they rebaptized, as did the Arians, tiiose who had been bap- 
 tized in the name of the blessed trinity, and particularly the Latins; because 
 with the IJonatisIs they maintain that the Creek church is the only true church, 
 and that the sacrijices and baptism of none else are valid." 
 
 ff" yR 'If v^ tV yf' ^F yfi 
 
 The Greek church, he it noted with all distinctness, did stand upon 
 this point, that she was ike only true church ; and that no ordinance, 
 baptism or the cucharist. ivas at all valid, nnless administered by her au- 
 thority. 
 
 I will read a little further : 
 
 " Michael having been advertized of these errors" &C.&C. " rel'usecl to appear 
 before, or to have any conference with us, and has likewise forbad our entrance 
 into the churches to perform divine service therein forasmuch as he had for- 
 merly shut uj) the churches of the Latins, calling them Azymitw, jiersecuting 
 and excommunicating them, all which reflected on the holy see, iti contempt 
 whereof he styled himself CEcuMEMCAL or Universai, Patriarch. Where- 
 fore not being able any longer to tolerate such an unheard of abuse as was of- 
 fered to the holy apostolical see, and looking upon it as a violation of the Ca- 
 tholic faith in several instances, &c., " We do subscribe to the anathema which 
 our most hol^' father the pope has denounced against Michael and liis adhe- 
 rents, if they do not retract their errors." &c. Id. ib. p. 236. 
 
 If then, there be any truth in history, from that day the present 
 sect of the church of Rome began its existence. 
 
 It never was fully, or cordially conceded by the Greek church, that 
 the pope was, or ought to be, the universal father ; and it may be 
 affirmed in all truth, that this was the real cause of the schism. 
 
 To recapitulate, thus far, in seeking for the papal head, so essen- 
 tial to the Roman church, we find it not in the New Testament, in 
 the ancient fathers, in the canons of the first general councils, nor in 
 the history of the church, till the commencement of the seventh cen- 
 tury. On the authority of Barronius, it is said that Phocas gave the 
 title to Boniface the .3rd in the year GOG. We have also seen, that 
 Pepin, another usurper, gave temporal estates and political dominion 
 to the popes about the middle of the 8th century, and that on the 16lh 
 of July 1054 the Western or Roman half of the church, after having 
 been first anathematized by the Eastern or Greek half, did solemnly 
 separate itself from the communion of the Greek church by an 
 anathema. Hence, both the origin and the name of the church of 
 Rome. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 4 o^lock, P. M. 
 Bishop Purcell. 
 
 My friend Mr. Campbell has fought a noble battle for me. I shall 
 prove that presently. Gibbon was an infidel, and became so be- 
 cause his father would not allow him to embrace the Roman Cath- 
 olic faith. He was a prodigy of mind, and his intellect was so 
 precocious 'tliat even when only sixteen years old, he read, I think
 
 BOMAN CATUOLIC Eii^IuIOJf. 41 
 
 it was, Bossuet's Universal History, by whicli he w as convinced of 
 the truth of the Catholic religion. His father (sad proof of the re- 
 straints on liberty of conscience, as exemplified in Protestant commu- 
 nities) persecuted him for this, and sent him to Lausanne, in Switzer- 
 land, where, under the close surveillance of Pavillard a Calvinist 
 minister, he was confined, debarred the reading of Catholic books, 
 and fed on bread and water, till at last he yielded his creed for better 
 fare. He thus became an infidel, and wrote against all religions. 
 But a man who could tlms shrink from duty to that faith which he 
 Relieved true, because he was persecuted, was not fit to appreciate the 
 beauty of the religion that had attracted him ; nor the sublime testi- 
 mony rendered to its divinity by its martyrs' blood. If he could 
 thus prove recreant to the only one which he loved, no wonder he be- 
 came opposed to all. 
 
 Such are the authorities against which I have to militate. 
 
 The gentleman told us that be would put his finger upon the precise 
 day and date, as recorded in history, when the Roman church separa- 
 ted from the holy and ancient apostolic church, but he has not kept his 
 word. I warrant that that pledge will never be redeemed. (Mr. 
 Campbell here explained that he had fixed it at the 16th July, 1054.) 
 If then the Catholic church ceased to be the true church in 1054, 
 where was the church of Christ? Where was the true Catholic church, 
 from which the Jioma7i C^thoVic church separated? " Behold I am 
 ALWAYS with you," says Christ, " and I will send you another Para- 
 clete wlio will abide with you all days." ."\Iatth. xxviii. 20. 
 
 If the true church was no where — if Christ had no witness on earth, 
 his promises have failed ; and Revelation is a solecism. A church, 
 unless it be conspicuous, unless every enquirer can 'have access to it, 
 is of no use as a witness of truth to mankind. If hid, how can it 
 testify of the true doctrine of Christ to all nations? But mark the 
 splendid testimony in favor of the purity and watchfulness of the 
 Roman Catholic church, afforded by history. How did the schism 
 of the Greek church begin? A layman Photius intruded and de- 
 clared himself the head of the church. This single fact is a splendid 
 argument of itself, to prove the necessity of a supreme head to watch 
 over the church. To use a .Scriptural phrase, he was like a faithful 
 sentinel upon the walls of Zion, to sound the warning to the world, 
 or, if you will, not to resemble "a dumb dog," but to bark"at the approach 
 of the thief, wlie came not in at the gate, but came by another way 
 into the fold, and he did bark at him ; and Photius and .Michael Ceru- 
 larius and other Greek intruders and errorists, not content with as- 
 suming a power not bch)nf>ing to them, actually cursed and anathe- 
 matized the pope of Rome, a proof perliaps of the amiable character 
 the gentleman gives the enemies of order and of the pope, but a suf- 
 ficient reason why the pope should exert all his authority in protect- 
 ing the church from their usurpations. 
 
 But the three legates to whoni the rommissjon was entrusted, car- 
 ried the bull of excor uiiicalion in tlnir pockets, and they are made 
 
 to appear very treacherous because they did not produce It at once, 
 but tried by pacific measures to bring about a reconciliation. Is it in 
 the gentleman's eHtimation, then, an evidence of treachery, to rcKort to 
 persuasive means with an eufrny, hcfnrf a|)pealiiig to thr sword and 
 involving one's country in war? "Suppose the presnlenl of the United 
 States sends a minister to a foreign country to obtain the settlement 
 D 2 6
 
 42 UKHAIi; o.\ lllK 
 
 of a disputed question. Does that minister begin by declaring war, 
 " y forcing his proposal with a bayonet down the throats of the peo- 
 le to Avhom he is accredited 1 No, he tries every mild means first. 
 
 by forcing his proposal with a bayonet down the throats of the peo- 
 ple to Avhom he is accredited 1 No, he tries every mild means first. 
 The contrary course would be neither politic nor wise, neither humane 
 
 nor in accordance with the rules of civilized society. The great and 
 the peculiar character of the people of the United States, is neither 
 to provoke nor to brook aggression. If her rights are violated, she 
 endeavors to convince the violator of his injustice, to disabuse him 
 of his error, to win liim back to a sense of rectitude by persuasion 
 and just remonstrance. ' If this fails, she resorts to arms, and though 
 she loves peace she is prepared for war. In a word she is terribly 
 peaceful. Now mark the course of the legates. They entreat Michael 
 to reconsider his conduct, they urge every argument that zeal can sug- 
 gest, but finding all their eflbrts fruitless, they afterwards act in pur- 
 suance of their instructions, \\ith perfect ingenuousness and openness. 
 Observe their procedure. They ascend the altar of the great church 
 of St. Sophia, the seventh wonder of the world — at whose portals 
 stood that large vase for the holy water, wherewith Greeks and Ro- 
 mans, commemorating the sprinkling of the blood of Christ, by which 
 our consciences are purified from dead works to serve the living God, 
 were accustomed alike to bless themselves; and on which were in- 
 scribed the Greek words "NfWtv h^ifAUfx-xTx [xm y.ov:t} o4"'" " purify O 
 God, our transgressions, and not our countenance only." They went 
 on the altar and in a formal speech explained to the assembled multi- 
 tude what were the grounds of the anathema. The crime of Mi- 
 chael was that in defiance of the prohibitions both of the old and new 
 law, he had made eunuchs priests. He was also accused of Arian- 
 ism. Now the Arians deny the divinity of Christ — I have heard 
 from some of our most respectable citizens, that Mr. Campbell also 
 denies that cardinal dogma, but I do not vouch for the correctness of 
 their assertion. (Mr. Campbell here stated that he did not deny the 
 divinity of Christ.) 
 
 It appears pretty plain from history that the people were for the 
 legates and opposed to their own usurping archbishop. Why? "The 
 legates flattered them." But how ? So far from it their whole argument 
 was directed against a man living amongst this very people, and for 
 an individual i'ar distant. It is natural to suppose that the people 
 were prejudiced in favor of their own archbishop and against one who 
 was a stranger to them. In short, were they not speaking against the 
 primacy and the assumptions of the ecclesiastical dignitary of the 
 very church in which they spoke, andof the very people to whom they 
 spoke. Did they flatter the clergy ] no ; they strongly inveighed 
 against the unscriptural and uncanonical ordination of the odious eu- 
 nuchs, by whom the patriarch was surrounded. This was a fine il- 
 lustration of the zeal for sound doctrine and discipline, displayed in 
 every previous and subsequent age by the holy see. It was acting 
 on the apostolic maxim — It is better to obey God than man — That 
 duties are ours and consequences are God's. 
 
 " Oh Timothy, guard the deposit" (of faith) said St. Paul. 
 
 "Now the spirit iiianifesdy saith, that in the last tiiiKs, some shall depart 
 from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, speaking lies in hypocrisy, liaving 
 their consciences seared with a red hot iron. These things proposing to the 
 brethren thou shall be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the 
 words of the faith and of the good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained." — 
 IrtEp. to Tim. ch. iv. v. 1. 2. 6.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC Rr.LIGIOX. 43 
 
 Thus on this occasion did the pope. 
 
 My friend could not understand in what sense the patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople claimed the title of universal bishop ; and wanted to learn 
 how his claim diflered from the present understanding of the office. 
 He has the answer in this history of facts. He has, cr his authority 
 Du Pin has for him, admitted that this Michael had said in effect that 
 he was Lord God over all the earth; and that there was no authorit)^ 
 without his sanction for any officer of the church to perform any of 
 the ordinances of religion. Even the pope of Kome must crouch to 
 his feet before he could administer the eucharist or even baptize an 
 infant. And the historian says that the document accusing the arch- 
 bishop was read before the people of Constantinople — the very city 
 where he reigned, where he was known, and where all the facts of 
 the case were before them. What is the most natural supposition'? 
 Surely this ; that if that document had not been true the people would 
 have cried out against it ; — they would not have assented toil. So 
 that all this is a splendid triumph of the supremacy of the Koman see. 
 But why refer to particular instances, when ecclesiastical history is 
 full of appeals made to the bishop of Rome by all the other bishops 
 of Christendom, and all acquiescing in his decision as not only the de- 
 cision of Peter, but of Christ himself. "The extraordinary commis- 
 sion given to Paul," says Bossuet, " expired with him in Rome, and 
 blending with the authority of Peter, to which it was subordinate, 
 raised the Roman see to the height of authority and glory. This is 
 the church which, taught by Peter and his successors, has never been 
 infected with heresy. This power of binding and loosing from sin, 
 was given first to Peter and then to the rest of the twelve apostles. 
 For it was manifestly the design of Jesus Christ, to place first in one 
 what lie afterwards intended to confer on many, but the sequel impairs 
 not the commencement, nor docs the first lose his place. All receive 
 the same power from the same source, but not all in the same degree, 
 nor to the same extent, for Jesus Christ communicates himself as he 
 pleases, and always in the manner best calculated to establish the uni- 
 ty of the churcii." " Peter," says St. Augustin, " who, in the honor 
 of his |)rimaf,y, rcpresenied tlie entire elnirch, iirsl and alone, receives 
 the keys, which were next to be coinmuiiieateil to all the; rHlicrs." The 
 reason of this is assigned l)y St. Covaives of Aries, thiitllie ee(;i(;siastical 
 authority, first estahiished in a single bishop, and afterwards diffused 
 among many, may be forever brought back to the principle of unity, 
 and remain inseparably united in tlie same cliair. This is tin; Roman 
 chair, the chair of Peter so much celebrated hy the Fathers, in which 
 they vied with one another in extolling the principality of the ajiostolic 
 chair, the principal principality, the source of unity, tiie mother 
 church, the head (or centre) of the episcopacy, whence parts the ray of 
 government, the chief, the only see which bindeth all in unity." 
 
 In these words you iiear Uptatus, St. Augustin, St. (!y|)rian, St. 
 Irenwus, St. Prosper, St. Avitus, Theodoret, the council of Chalccdon, 
 Africa and (laul, Greece and Asia, tiie east and the west united toge- 
 ther. This is the doctrine of all the chureii ; this is its unity and 
 strength. Here all is strong because all is divine, all is united. And 
 as each part is divine, the bond also is divine, and the union and 
 arrangement such that each mrmber acts with the force of the ontiro 
 body. Henco whilst the ancient bishops said, they exercised author-
 
 44 DBBATH ON THE 
 
 ity in their respective churches as the vicars of Jesus Christ and suc- 
 cessors of the apostles sent immediately by him, they also declared 
 that they acted in the name of Peter in virtue of the authority given to 
 all bishops in the person of Peter ; so that the correspondence, the 
 union and harmony of the entire body of tiic church are such that what 
 one bishop does, in accordance with the spirit and rules of Catholic 
 unity, all the church, all the Episcopacy, and the chief of the Episco- 
 pacy act in concert and accomplish with him. 
 
 My friend observes that the Greeks were always uneasy under the 
 Roman popedom. I admit this to a great extent, but St. .John, and 
 Polycarp, and Itrtntius and Irenanis (his naine signifies Peace, or the 
 peaceful) and Eusebius and Chrysostom and a hundred others were 
 Greeks, and the most eloquent advocates, and the ablest supporters of 
 the preeminence of the church of Rome above all other churches. 
 
 Here then is a cloud of witnesses who furnish an astonishing mass 
 of testimony to the fact that in the early days, the Greek church as 
 well as the Latin submitted willingly to the authority of St. Peter and 
 his successors — the authority necessar}' to preserve order and peace 
 and unity, &c. in the church of God on earth. 
 
 With regard to the controversy of the gentleman with Bishop Otey ; 
 there was a mooted point between Mr. Campbell and himself. I un- 
 derstood however that all the discussion was on Mr. Campbell's side. 
 
 (Mr. Campbell here explained that he had had a private discussion 
 with Bishop Otey, and had afterwards written him seven letters upon 
 the Episcopacy.) 
 
 Bishop Pcrcell. I really do not know what Mr. Campbell's tenets 
 are, or what he believes. My brethren, I am fifjlitirig in the dark. I am 
 obliged to answer on the spot charges and objections against myre- 
 ligion which I cannot anticipate, while I really know not \vhat my 
 antagonist's belief is, what qualifications, what marks of a divine call 
 to the ministry ho considers necessary, if indeed he believes in any 
 peculiar separation of any man or set of men, for priestly functions. 
 
 Will my friend say definitely, before this assembly, if he believe in 
 the necessity of such call or mission. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. I do. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. How is that calling made known, that mission 
 given? 
 
 Mr. Caimpbei.l. By the word and providence of God. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. How can we ascertain that word and providence 
 of God 1 
 
 Mr. Campbell. By the voice of the people and the written word — 
 '• vox populi vox Dei." 
 
 Bishop Purcell. Suppose the people are displeased, for instance, 
 with a Presbyterian pastor, have they the sole power to remove him? 
 
 Mr. Campbell. Yes. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. Suppose the ministry of a Presbyterian church 
 are displeased with him, and the people of his church are pleased with 
 him. May be then retain his station against the will of the ministry? 
 
 Mr. Campbell. If the people will have it so, it must be so. " Vox 
 populi, vox Dei"! 
 
 Bishop Purcell. There my brethren, you have heard him! Such 
 dpclarations !
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOrt. 45 
 
 SATURDAY, January 14th., Half past 9 o'clock, A. M. 
 Mr. Campdei.i. rose and said : 
 
 I shall resume the subject where I closed yesterday evening, reserv- 
 ingr my remarks on the last speech of my opponent till the conclusion 
 of my present argument. 
 
 The gentleman read in the various reasons assigned for the bull of 
 Nicholas, against the patriarch of Constantinople and his brethren, 
 among others, the statement that the Greeks pretended to be the only 
 true, catholic and apostolic church. It would not be difficult to prove 
 from history that in point of seniority, the Greek church has a superior 
 claim to the Roman. It is first in point of time, and claims a regular 
 descent from the apostles. There is one strong argument in her favor 
 which never has been met. To her belong the first seven councils. 
 They were held in Grecian cities, called by Grecian emperors, and 
 composed of Grecian bishops. They were wholly Grecian. The Ro- 
 man church has no right to claim them. And if the doctrines proclaim- 
 ed by these councils be true, they are the doctrines of the Greek church 
 subsequently borrowed by the Romans. 
 
 As this is an important point, I will expatiate a little more fully up- 
 on it. I have taken the trouble to collect the following facts: at the 
 finl council of Nice there were 318 bishops: of these 315 were Greek 
 and 3 Roman. This was the first general council, A. D. 325. At the 
 first council of Constantinople, (the second general council of the 
 church,) A. D. 381. there were 150 bishops ; of these 149 were Greeks, 
 and only 1 was Roman. At the third council held at Ephesus, A. D. 
 431, there were but G8 bishops present. Of these 67 were Greek, and 
 one was Roman. At the fourth general council, which was the largest 
 and most authoritative of the first four, held at Chalcedon A. D. 451, 
 against Kutyches, there were present 353 bishops: 350 of whom were 
 Greeks, and only 3 Roman. At the second council of Constantinople 
 {iheffth general council) there were presetit IGl bishops: 15G of 
 whom were Greeks, and C> Romans — held against Origen and others, 
 A. D. 553. At the third council of Constantinople, (and the s/.r//( gen- 
 eral council,) there were 5G bishops present : 51 of whom were (ireeks, 
 and 5 Romans. This council met against the Monothelitcs A. D. G80. 
 At the second roimcil of Nice, (the seventh general council,) there 
 were present 377. bishops; 370 f>f whom were (ireeks, and 7 Romans. 
 Th y met to restore images, A. D. 787. These were the firxt seven 
 genera/ councils of the church. I have been at the pains to make this 
 collection of facts, to ascertain the merits of the controversy between 
 the Greek and Roman sects, as respects the question to whom of 
 right bflontr liie (If)ftrines of the ancient councils. 1 find that the 
 ■whole nnnihrr of bishops in these councils was 118G: only 'JG of 
 whom were Romans, f'ertainly the Greek church has the prior claim 
 on our.attenlion, and ought to be revered for her antiquity and author- 
 ity, more than the schism which haughtily separated from her ! 
 
 Hut, in adilitifju to thesr- councils having been called — not by the 
 authority of the church of Rome : but by eastern emperors, and com- 
 posed of eastern bishoj)s; every great question discussed in the first 
 four; and, indeed, I rnay add, in the last three counciln, was of Gre-
 
 40 DEBATE ON TUB 
 
 cian orisfin. Tliey grew up in the Greek school — a school easily dis- 
 tinguished from the Latin, by the peculiar subtiliy of its definitions — 
 a school long accustomed to nice distinctions, and whose reasoners 
 could split the thousandth part of an idea. Of this, their wars about 
 homousion and /innionusios are ample proof. There are no questions 
 more purely abstract and nietnpliysical than many of those discussed 
 in these seven great ecumpnical co\mcils. 
 
 Again, these councils were not only called by Greeks, composed of 
 Greeks, and occupied about Greek questions ; but were all assembled 
 in Grecian cities. 
 
 If there be any virtue in councils to establish doctrines and the prior- 
 ity of churches, the Greek church must be considered the mother of 
 the Roman, rather than her daughter. At all events, it is fully proved 
 that the Roman Catholic church is a sect or schism, which is the bur- 
 then of the proposition before us. To strengthen this conviction, I 
 proceed to comment on a standard definition of Catholicity. 
 
 I would now ask if there be any objection to the book which I hold in 
 my hand, as a good Roman Catholic authority. I believe it to be the 
 true standard of the Roman Catholic church. It is " //«e doctrine of 
 the council of Trent, as expressed in the creed of pope Pius the IV." But 
 ■while the word "catholic" is in my eye, I am reminded that my 
 friend has asserted, ' that catholic is a scripture title of the church.' I 
 reply that it is not so used in the New Testament; and that it is only 
 found as a general, running title to some epistles : that its antiquity is 
 very doubtful, as it cannot be found in the body of the book ; and, con- 
 sequently, it has no authority. But now for the defiiiition from the 
 approved standard of the church: 
 
 Section IV. Under the head, " Tliat ihechurch of Christ is CATHOLIC or 
 Universal," it is asked. 
 
 What do you understand by this ? 
 
 Answer. "Not only that the church of Christ shall always be known by the 
 name of Catholic, by which she is called in the creed; but that she shall also 
 be truly Catholic or Universal by being the church of all ages and nations." 
 p. 15. 
 
 We have been showing that the church of Christ was not originally 
 known by the name catholic ,- that the Roman sect was not the church 
 of the first six centuries ; and, therefore, that the approved definition 
 of the creed will not apply to this party. I have proved that she had 
 no pope, or supreme head, for full six hundred years, and in corrobora- 
 tion of the argument, drawn from general councils, I have shown that 
 the first seven were not hers, but peculiarly those of the Greek church; 
 and that the Greek church is, in fact, the mother. 
 
 But there are yet other, and perhaps stronger arguments to show 
 her daughtership. Some of my audience can appreciate the following: 
 That the Hebrew is a more ancient language than the Greek, and the 
 Greek than the Roman, needs not be stated but for a few. One proof 
 of this fact is, that the Hebrew has given many words to the Greek, 
 while the Greek has given none to the Hebrew. So the Greek has 
 given many words to the Latin, while the Latin has given none to the 
 Greek. Thus we prove the Roman church to have come out of the 
 bosom of the Greek, from the fact, that all the leading ecclesiastical 
 terms in the Roman church are Greek. For example : ^^pope," ^^patri- 
 arch" '■'■ synod" "ecclesiastic,'''' "schism" "schismatic " "heresy," "here- 
 tic," "heresiarch," "catechumen," "hierarchy," "church," "chrism,"
 
 R05LVN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 
 
 47 
 
 ''exorcism^'' '■'akoluiM," ''diocess,'' ''presbytery,''' ''trimly," "mystery," 
 "mystic," "catholic," "canon," &c., &c., &c. This as fully proves 
 the seniority of the Greek church, as it does that of the Greek lan- 
 guage over the Latin. 
 
 All ancient ecclesiastical historians, are also Greeks, such as Euse- 
 bius, Socrates, Scholasticus, Evagrius Scholasticus, Sozomon, Theo- 
 doret. The most ancient and primitive fathers are also Greek. They 
 were models to the Latins and imitated in their writings. 
 
 To recapitulate, we have now shown that the Greek church is more 
 ancient than the Latin church ; because the first seven general councils 
 were all Greek, there being 1186 Grecian bishops and only 2G Roman 
 bishops present, they were called by Greek emperors, held in Greek 
 cities, and employed about Greek questions. 
 
 The leading ecclesiastic terms of all the ancient offices, customs 
 and controversies, are Greek : So are the early fathers and liistorians. 
 
 These considerations superadded to the facts and documents of yes- 
 terday, we think fully prove that the Roman church is not the church 
 of all ages and of all nations — not the catholic and apostolic church, as 
 the creed of Trent defines; but a sect, a branch or schism, from the 
 Hebrew and Greek churches of the New Testament. 
 
 In proving the proposition before us my plan is to select one of the 
 grand elements embraced in the standard definition of the church, and 
 to show that such being essential to the church, the church could not 
 exist without it. Now, I prefer the arithmetical mode of procedure in 
 this discussion. First lay down the rule and work a single question, 
 and then leave it to others to work as many as they please. 
 
 Thus I first laid down a definition of the Roman Catholic church 
 from her own standards. From that it appeared that a pope or univer- 
 sal bishop is an essential element of her existence. T then showed that 
 six hundred years had elapsed from the time of the apostles, before the 
 doctrine or existence of a univi»rsal bishop was thought of, and that the 
 office was not instituted till the year G06, But when I have proved 
 this, I have worked only one question. Any one may take up the doc- 
 trine of transubstantiiition, the worship of images, purgatory, (a doc- 
 trine more ancii^nt hovvnvcr, than citlicr the (J reek or Roman church,) 
 and every other peculiar doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, and 
 prove that not one of them is to be found in the divine book, nor in the 
 records of the church. 
 
 What, let me now ask, is the great point in my first proposition 1 
 To provf that tlio Roman Catholic church is not "the rfiother and mis- 
 tress" of all churches ; but a sect, in the full import of that word ; and 
 if that be not now proved, I kimw not what can be proved. I admit 
 the subject is capable of much more extensive developement ; hut we 
 think it iifillu^r nercssary nor ex|)edient to be more diffuse. 
 
 "Will l\\v presiding moderator please read my first proposition ] 
 
 [Here proposition No. 1. was read by lin; moderator.] 
 say then she is not the holy, apostolic, catholic church, as she pre- 
 tends to bo ; for in proving her to be a sect, I prove her to be not ratho- 
 lic, nor apontolic ; because the true apostolic clinrch catuiot be called a 
 sect. To prove lier to be a sect is to |)rove her not Catholic, therefore, 
 nor apostolic. What remains now 1 Even on the roncessidn of my 
 opponent, she is not the Calhalic church ; for ho admits, that the (ireek 
 church differed from her only in a few non-essential matters. On that
 
 48 DEBATi: ON TUB 
 
 admission, if he admits that persons are saved in the Greek church ; 
 she must be a part of the church of Ciirist ; for with him, there is no 
 salvation out of theciuirch. 
 
 In the next place my ])roposition says ' she is not Italy.'' I am im- 
 pelled by a sense of duty, and not by any unkind feelings towards such 
 of my fellow citizens as belong to that community, to attempt to prove 
 that the church of Home is not holy. 1 would not heedlessly or need- 
 lessly offend against the feelings of an Indian, a Hindoo, or a Pagan, 
 in his sincere devotions, how absurd soever they niigiitbe. Much less 
 would I wound any one that professes the christian religion under any 
 form; but in serving my contemporaries, in riideeming my pledge, it 
 has become necessary to investigate the grand pretensions of this fra- 
 ternity, that exclusively arrogates to itself the title oiholy. 
 
 Not to expatiate at (his time on the vices of the clergy and of the popes 
 what the cardinals Barronius and BcUarmine have so fully noticed, and 
 sometimes specially detailed, I shall take a single text from Bellar- 
 mine, De. Eccl. lib. 3. c. 7. which avows a doctrine that must for 
 ever make the Roman church unholy. It is expressed in these 
 words: — 
 
 " Wicked men, infidels ami reprobates remaining in the public profession of 
 the Romish church are true nienibers of the body of Ciirist." 
 
 How then can we admit that she is holy'? Again : it must be ad- 
 mitted that the great mass of all those who die in the faitli and profes- 
 sion of the Catholic doctrines are not strictly holy ; for why then should 
 they have to pass through the fires of purgatory ? 
 
 But again ; in her own Testament (if she have a Testament. The 
 gentleman may, indeed tell us his church has no English Testament ; 
 for she never owned but the Vulgate. She never gave to her people, 
 with approbation a French, or English, or any vernacular Testament. 
 The Rhemish Testament is, however, published by the authority of a 
 portion of the church ; and from it we can find the doctrine of Bellar- 
 mine explicitly taught in the notes appended, by the same authority 
 which gave the Testament) in her own Testament, I repeat it, on John 
 XV. 1. these Roman annotators say : — 
 
 " Every branch in me, &r." Christ hath some branches in his body mystical 
 that be fruitless; therefore, ill livers also inav be members of Ciirist's church.'" 
 
 "Ill livers''' (mark it) " may be members." This is repeatedly sta- 
 ted in various places, and as I understand, avowed by ail that commu- 
 nity, as the true doctrine of the church. " 111 livers,'''' wicked men, in- 
 fidels, reprobates, vicious characters, those guilty of crimes of every 
 enormity and color, may then continue members of the Roman church, 
 while they acknowledge the pope and the priesthood, and make profes- 
 sion of faith in the Catholic church ; she therefore counts within her 
 fold 150.000,000 of souls, as my opponent staled in this city in October 
 last. All that happen to be born in Catholic countries, infidels, athe- 
 ists, and all, are enrolled in her communion. Her gates are wide as 
 the human race. It is all church and no world with her. Tiic lusts of 
 the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, are found in her 
 communion. 
 
 The Roman Catholics in the United States are probably the best body 
 of Catholics in the world. I mean those who are native citizens. But 
 visit Old Spain or New Spain, Porlug-al, Italy, Austria, Fran<;e, or Can- 
 ada, where Catholicism is the established religion ; and then ask whe- 
 ther holiness be a distinguishing attribute of the depraved and degraded
 
 B03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 49 
 
 onllions who call themselves Roman Catholics! This with me is no 
 very pleasant theme, and I will not extend my remarks on this point by 
 unnecessary details. I have said enough to prove the allegata in my 
 first proposition, and to show that the church of Rome is a sect and not ^ 
 the holy, apostolic church of Christ, as she proudly and exclusively 
 pretends. I am willing io submit these documents to the severest in- 
 vestigation ; and if other arguments and facts are called for,.! will only 
 add, we have them at command. 
 
 My learned opponent seems to imagine that when 1 fix the birth day 
 of the Roman Catholic church, on the 16th day of July 1054, I must 
 admit that the church from which she separated was the true and uncor- 
 Tupted church of Christ ; but this is what logicians call a nonsequitur. 
 It does not follow. The gentleman seems to reason as if it were inva- 
 riable that when one sect separates from another, the body from which 
 it separates, must necessarily be the true church. This is not logical. 
 A new sect may spring from the bosom of the worst sect on earth ; 
 but does this prove that the mother sect has piety, character, or author- 
 ity ? Neither does it follow that in the year 1054 the Greek church, 
 though the mother or sister of the Roman, was the true church of Christ, 
 When it becomes necessary, I may show that both the Greek and Ro- 
 man schisms had long before 1054, been separate from the apostolic 
 church. 
 
 Protestants have all concealed too much in every age and period of 
 this controversy. Even now there is a morbid sensibility upon this 
 subject among some, lest we should make Christ's church too indepen- 
 dent of the pope's church. ' In reproaching the mother church,' say 
 they, " you reproach us, also." 
 
 In one of the periodicals of this morning it was intimated that the 
 fates and fortunes of some Protestant party are involved in the pending 
 controversy. Be not afraid of the insinuations of such political alarm- 
 ists. I stand here as a Protestant, not as a Baptist, or Methodist, or 
 Episcopalian ; but to defend Protestantism. I am not afraid to meet 
 any antagonist on these premises. In advocating the great cardinal 
 principles of Protestantism, I feel that I stand upon a rock. There is 
 nothing in hazard. I am sorry to see this sort of sensibility manifest- 
 ed. Can the truth suffer from discussion 1 
 
 In the mean time I will proceed to the second proposition, which will 
 much illustrate and confirm the argument already offered in proof of 
 the first. These great points so embrace one another, and are so in- 
 timately allied, that none of them can be fully demonstrated without re- 
 ference to the others. 
 
 "Prop. II. Her notionof Apostolic Succcfgion is without any Tuundation in 
 the Bible, in reason, or in iVirl ; an imposition of the most injurious ronscquen- 
 CM, built upon unscriptural and anti-scriptural traditions, resting wholly upon 
 the opinions of intcrrstetl and fuftible men." 
 
 Before I heard that the bishop intended to meet me in debate, I had 
 resolved to deliver a scries of lecttires, on the whole pretensions of the 
 Roman f'hurch, in the following order: 1st her aposlolicity, 2nd anti- 
 quity, 3rd infallibility, Itli Buprnmacy, .'itii ratlmlicity, fith unity, 
 and 7th sanctity. These seven great topics, I intended to discuss at 
 full length. Each involving the others, none of them is so isolated as 
 to be susceptible of an independent and separate developement. The 
 very term apoiioliciiy involves uniiquily: hence, we find her pretending 
 E 7
 
 50 DEBATE 0:V TUB 
 
 to trace her descent, by regular steps, back to Peter, who, she asserts, 
 was the first bishop of Rome. 
 
 " Only those that can derive their lineage from the apostles are the heirs of the 
 apostles: and consequently they alone can claim a right to the scriptures, to the 
 administration of the sacraments, or any share in the pastoral ministry. It i« 
 their proper inheritance which tliey have received from the apostles, and the 
 apostles from Christ. 'As mj- father hath sent me, even so I send you.'" John 
 XX. 21. [Grounds of Cath. Doc. p. 17. 
 
 This is the doctrine of the creed of pope Pius iv. and a more glaring 
 assumption is not easily imagined. This church, however, delights 
 in assumption. She assumes that Jesus Christ did establish a church 
 of all nations, to be ruled by a sort of generalissimo, or universal 
 head, who was to be his vicar on earth ; by virtue of whose ecclesi- 
 astical power she assumes for him political power ; for his logic is, 
 that Jesus Christ's vicar must represent his. master in all things, in his 
 political as well as his ecclesiastical power. And as Christ himself 
 possesses all authority in heaven and on earth, she assumes that the 
 pope his vicar ought to be the fountain of all power : that by him 
 kings should reign, and princes decree justice. After having thus as- 
 sumed, that Christ did establish such a kingdom and headship on earth, 
 that he did constitute the office of a vicar for himself and of a prince of 
 the apostles ; in tiie second place, she assumes that this headship was 
 given to Peter, that Christ gave the whole church and the apostles 
 themselves in charge to Peter; that he gave him absolute control over 
 the bishops, pastors and laity ; and in the third place, to complete 
 the climax of assumptions, she assumes that Christ established a suc- 
 cessorship to Peter throughout all ages. On this triple assumption 
 rests the colossal empire of the papacy. 
 
 Now, as to the nature of the apostolical office be it observed with 
 brevity, that it was essentially incommunicable. Holy writ recogni- 
 zes but three orders of apostles, and none of them had lineal succes- 
 sors. Jesus Christ, the apostle of God the Father, was thejirst. He 
 is called in the New Testament, " the Jpostle and high priest of the 
 christian profession." It is not necessary to prove that he could have 
 no successor. Second, the twelve apostles, who were apostles of 
 Christ, as he was the apostle of God. In John xvii. he says, "As my 
 Father made me his apostle, so I make you my apostles." These then 
 being personal attendants on the Messiah, could have no successors. 
 Third, Apostles sent out by particular churches, on special errands. 
 These are called in the New Testament ii <t7ro<rrcKoi tw tnKkwiav. These, 
 always sent on special errands, could have no successors. 
 
 If the qualifications of the apostolic office were understood, there 
 could be no controversy on the question of successors. As laid 
 down by Peter, Acts i. it behoved them to have been companions of 
 Christ from his baptism to his acsension, to be eye and ear witnesses 
 of all that he did and said. In this essential requisite they could have 
 no successors. Besides, if one should have a successor, why not all? 
 While the college of apostles was necessary, we see that succession 
 was full}"^ carried out. Therefore, the chair of Judas the traitor deman- 
 ded a successor as well as that of Peter. But yet we have not heard 
 of any controversy about the successor of Judas! 
 
 Our first argument against the Catholic notion of succession is drawn 
 from the nature of the apostolic office. 
 
 But did we concede that the apostolic office was communicable, and
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 51 
 
 that Christ did appoint a president of the apostles, and place his chair 
 in Rome, there is no document on earth, from which we can learn with 
 any degree of certainty, that Peter was ever bishop in Rome. And yet 
 Catholics themselves, contend that it is essential to the cause of the 
 succession and supremacy that Peter placed his see at Rome by Christ's 
 commandment. 
 
 Bellarmine positively affirms ; 
 
 " The right qjf succession in the popes of Home isjlitinded in this, that Peter 
 by Christ's appointment, placed his seat at Rome, and there remained till his 
 death." Lib. il. c. 1. 
 
 This resolves the controversy into a single question of f\ict, viz. 
 Did Peter, by Christ^s appointment, place his seat at Rome and there re- 
 main till death ? Barronius, however says; 
 
 " It is not improbable tliat our Lord fjave an express command that Peter 
 should so fix his see at Rome, that the bishop of Rome should absolutely suc- 
 ceed him. [Id. H). 
 
 Only probable ! But there is no such succession in fact. In the 
 first place, there is no proof from scripture that Peter ever was at Rome, 
 much less, bishop of Rome ; and secondly, if he were an apostle, he 
 could not be the bishop of any church. A king, a justice of the peace, 
 the bi.^hop of London, the vicar of Bray ! It is, on these premises, 
 impossible to prove this most fundamental question. 
 
 V'arious efforts have been made by the bishop of Cincinnati to ex- 
 cite Episcopalians and others on this question, as if they were likely 
 to be involved in the same common ruin wMth my opponent's preten- 
 sions. There is no need for any alarm on this account. The ollice of 
 pope and his succession, certainly, are not identical with that of 
 Episcopalian bishops in England or America ! 
 
 There is no body of men who have done more to elevate English 
 literature and science, than the English clergy, none whose writings 
 I have read with more pleasure than theirs, on all subjects pertaining 
 to general literature, morality and religion. In some of them, indeed, 
 we find weak as well as strong places, and a too great limidity in 
 contending against the Romanists, lest they should endanger their right 
 of Episcopacy. I incline to tlic ojnnion, that the pretensions of the 
 church of Rome may be fully caiivvissed without at all jeopardizing 
 the simple (|uestion of the divine riglil of lOpiscopacy. But if we at- 
 tempt to bring a clean thing out of an unclean ; or expect to find a di- 
 vine warrant in the commission given to tlio apostles ; or in the Ro- 
 man Catholic traditions ; we shall never find it to the day of eternity. 
 
 Successors must be successors in full, or they are not successors at 
 all. To illustrate this — does not the existiii^f president of tlic United 
 •States inherit all the power and authority of (Jeorgc Washington, by 
 virtue of constitutional succession ? Does he not possess the same 
 power, in all its length and breadth, its height and depth, as did his 
 predecessor, from the first to the last ? This is true of every constitu- 
 tional office in the rivilized world. All the power which any prede- 
 cessor can have, belongs to every incumbent : So in the church, if it 
 have constitution at all. 
 
 If the apostles have successors, they have successors in full. But 
 the Roman Catholics themselves give up the controversy, by admitting 
 that none of the bishops or pnpeH inherit the power and functions be- 
 stowed upon the apostles by llie commission. 
 
 I do not, indeed, found my argument for the divine right of bishops
 
 52 DEBATE oy THE 
 
 or elders, and deacons, on the commission, which Jesus Christ gives 
 to his apostles; and I am prepared for all the consequences of this ad- 
 mission. For by every rule of interpretation, I must apply every word 
 of the commission to the apostles ; because it addresses them only» 
 But let none be alarmed at this declaration : nothing is jeopardized — 
 ratlier, indeed, all is secured by it. 
 
 In the presence of the apostles alone, he pronounced these words; 
 " All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me ; go you there- 
 fore and convert all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the 
 Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all 
 the things which I have commanded you ; and lo, / am with you al- 
 ways, even to the conclusion of this state," or to the end of the age or 
 world. 
 
 This commission created plenipotentiaries : it reared up ambassa- 
 dors, and gave to the apostles the same power of erecting the church^ 
 which God gave to Moses for raising the tabernacle in the wilderness. 
 They had all the authority of Christ to set up what orders they pleas- 
 ed. They created both bishops and deacons ; and as they had a di- 
 ■vine right to do so, so those created by them have a divine right to 
 officiate in the duties of those offices. A true interpretation of the 
 promise, '•'■ I am with you,'''' will go far to confirm the declaration, that 
 they neither had, nor could have successors in office. Of this, how- 
 ever, again — 
 
 Meanwhile, it may be objected that Paul was an apostle, and ac- 
 ted without this commisf5ion. He had, indeed, a special commission, 
 and the qualifications of an apostle. He had seen and heard the Lord. 
 For to this end the Lord appeared to him. But as respected time, he 
 acknowledged he was born rather two late to be an apostle — he was 
 " born out of due time.'''' How, then, could any of them have succes- 
 sors at this day ! 
 
 The gentleman mentioned some two persons in the Old Testament. 
 They could have no successors in office, according to the argument on 
 hand. It was absolutely impossible that Moses could have a succes- 
 sor, flis office and commission were really from God, and strictly 
 peculiar to himself. He brought the Jews out of Egypt, and erected 
 the tabernacle ; this was his peculiar office, which, in its very nature, 
 expired when once its duties were fulfilled. The commission of Joshua, 
 fn like manner, was also peculiar to himself, and could not possibly de- 
 scend to a successor. When he led Israel across the Jordan, and di- 
 Tided the land by lot amongst them, his works and office naturally ex- 
 pired. So when the apostles preached the gospel, revealed the whole 
 will of Jesus Christ, and erected his church and all its proper officers 
 and duties, their work was done, and they, like Moses and Joshua, be- 
 ing officers extraordinary, could have no succcssors.-[Time expired.} 
 
 Half past 10 o block A. M. 
 
 Bishop Purcelt, rises. 
 
 Here is, beloved friends, as plain and logical a case for argumenta- 
 tion, and as fair an opportunity afforded for refutation, as ever the 
 annals of controversy exhibited. The first argument of my friend 
 amounts to this, viz: That for reasons he has given, the Greek church 
 ias superior claims upon our attention to the Roman. 
 
 I have quoted councils, general and particular laws, usages, appeals,
 
 RO>IAN CATHOLIC BELIGION. 53 
 
 the authority of Greek and Latin fathers, that is to say, the most au- 
 thentic testimony of the first ages, to show that with Rome was the 
 primacy of all the churches. This, at once, upsets all that he has said. 
 
 He says the first seven councils were Greek; and that therefore the 
 Greek church had the preeminence. But, I ask, who convoked those 
 councils ■? Who approved them ■? Who sanctioned their canons, and 
 gave throughout the entire church .the force of law to their decisions? 
 Who guarded them against errors, and set them right when they were 
 going, or had gone astray'? It was the pope. I have already said, 
 that Sylvester, hishop of Rome, aware of the danger that menaced the 
 faith in the east, convoked the great council of Nice — that the 
 emperor Constantino, the ruler of the east and west, of Rome and 
 of Constantinople, the man, consequently, upon whom as chief magis- 
 trate of the Roman empire it devolved, afforded the necessary facilities 
 to the various bishops to come to the council. Again, who presided 
 as legate of the pope 1 Osius of Cordova, in Spain, a western man, 
 assisted, as is and has been customary, by two inferior ecclesiastics. 
 
 The jealous Greeks beheld all this, and surely they would not have 
 permitted Rome thus to assume the supremacy, if her right to it had 
 not been universally admitted since the days of her founder St. Peter. 
 Is it not the most splendid proof of the correctness of my argument? 
 The strongest evidence that could be desired of the discomfiture of 
 ray adversary? 
 
 I thought to have seen a more powerful display of logic from the 
 strong and disciplined mind of my friend Mr. C; but 1 attributed the 
 poverty of his argument to indisposition on his part, or to the weak- 
 ness of his cause. 
 
 Well, another reason is stated, to prove the supremacy of the Greek 
 church, viz. : that the questions discussed in these councils were of 
 Greek origin. Is it then to be wondered at, that as almost every error 
 in the old church originated in Greece, it should be there corrected ? 
 that the remedy should be applied where the disease existed ? 
 
 The Greeks were at all times a curious, inquisitive, restless people. 
 The passion for disputation displayed in the schools of the philosophers 
 was, as by contagion, communicated to many of the professors of 
 Christianity. But the manner in whicli it operated upon the one and 
 the other was essentially different. With the philosopher such ques- 
 tions were objects of understanding only, subjects of speculation; 
 whereon the ingenuity of a minute mind might employ or waste itself. 
 But with the christian thoy were matters of truth and falsehood, of 
 belief or disbelief, and he felt assured that his eternal interests would 
 be influenced if not decided by his choice. As soon as the copious 
 language of Greece was vaguely applied to the ilefinilion of spiritual 
 things, and the explanation of heavenly mysteries, the field of conten- 
 tion seemed to be removed from earth to air, where the foot found 
 nothing stable (nothing like the rock of Rome — new and striking 
 proof of its necessity) to rest upon ; where argumrnts were easily 
 eluded, and wiicre the space, in which to fly and rally, was infinite. 
 Add to this the nature and genius of the disputants; for l/ic oripin of 
 tliese dinputcs muij hi: traced vilhnut avi/ iTciplinu In llic rcntln^n imagina- 
 tions of the. Kaxl. The violent temperament of the orientals, as it was 
 highly adapted to the reception of religious im])re3sions, and admitted 
 them with fervor and earnestness, intermingled, so closely, passion 
 E 2
 
 54 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 •with piety, as scarcely to conceive them separable. The natural ardor 
 of their feelings was not abated by the natural subtilty of their under- 
 standing, which was sharpened in the schools of Egypt; and when 
 this latter began to be occupied by inquiries in which the former were 
 so deeply engaged, it was to be expected that many extravagances 
 would follow, Vid. Waddington, p. 92. 
 
 Yet, because it was in the east that the heresies in the ancient day 
 of the church commenced, and in the east the councils met to correct 
 those heresies, the Greek church must therefore have been the true 
 church ! Such is my friend's argument ! and it is now plain, that a 
 feebler, a more inconclusive, and a more irrational one, he could scarce- 
 ly have advanced before this enlightened assembly. But what is still 
 more remarkable, did not these very councils, these Greek councils, 
 establish by their own acts, and these of the most solemn and authentic 
 character, the supremacy of the Roman seel Did they not solicit the 
 pope's approbation of their decrees, and acknowledge that without his 
 sanction their proceedings were void of effect 1 
 
 He says that the emperor presided. I have already answered that 
 the emperor did not preside. He distinctly acknowledged the spiritual 
 to be independent of the temporal power, he alleged that he pretended 
 to no right to preside. He knew that God never told the emperors, 
 his predecessors, to preside over the deliberations of his church. The 
 constitution of that church had been established three hundred years 
 before Constantine became a proselyte to Christianity. It is unheard 
 of that a temporal monarch ever presided over the deliberations of the 
 church, or ruled in ecclesiastical matters. At least we catholics submit 
 to no such dictation — such a confusion of things divine and human — 
 such an anomaly ! I am sorry it is allowed in England. In that coun- 
 try even a woman may be, for a woman has been, the head of the 
 church, as in the instance of queen Elizabeth ; nay, a little child, as 
 in the case of Edward. It is contrary to reason, to scripture, to human 
 rights and divine ordinances, that such as these should presume in any 
 situations, to give or withhold authority to the ministry, to preach the 
 gospel of Christ, or to dispense the mysteries of God. It outrages 
 every feeling of sanctity, it degrades, it vilifies the priesthood, to see 
 bishops and archbishops kneeling at the feet of women and boys, and 
 praying them to grant a license to preach. 
 
 My friend has charged me with making professions of respect for 
 Episcopalians and Episcopal methodists, &c., but do I suppress the 
 truth, and do I fail to censure them where they too are wrong. My 
 friend has gratuitously presented himself before this assembly as the 
 champion of Protestantism; and I have shown that he is, if at all, but 
 little less opposed than I am to the denominations I have named, on 
 the vital point of orders and a called and sent ministry. He would 
 amuse them with an equivocal defence of their principles to-day, and 
 then present them with his own views in theology — with Campbell- 
 ism, baptized Protestantism, — [Here the moderators called Bishop 
 Purcell to order.] 
 
 My friend, learnedly, (and I give him credit for it,) showed how it 
 came that there were so many errors and questionable doctrines in the 
 Greek church. I have stated the causes, humanly speaking, of the 
 errors. It is then, an undisputed fact, that they were more numerous 
 in the Greek than in the Roman church ; that the Roman church was
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 55 
 
 Comparatively free from theni. But he has plainiy misconceived the 
 inference to be drawn from the fact ; and it is this : that as Rome 
 was the primary see, the centre of unity, the mother and mistress of 
 all the churches, God watched over her with peculiar care, and pre- 
 served her from the errors and heresies that proved infinitely more 
 fatal than the pagan persecutions, to the churches of the east. While 
 they were distracted, the Koman church was united in faith ; while 
 they were in danger of breaking to pieces the edifice of faith, she was 
 consolidated, herself, and laboring to consolidate them under one creed. 
 If any thing did prolong the gospel life in the east, it was the authority 
 of Rome. By her was the doctrine of the Savior vindicated, and 
 kept pure from the foul admixture, the contamination of heresy. By 
 her were Arianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Monotholism, and a 
 hundred other novelties, the spurious progeny of dangerous opinions 
 in the east, successively condemned. 
 
 And now, having disposed of the argument which appears in the 
 van of the gentleman's remarks, I will go on with a question of fact, 
 to which he has again referred, touching the word Catholic. He says 
 that it is not found in the New Testament. Admitting that it is not in 
 the body of the canon, which I did not contend for, yet it is prefixed 
 to some of the epistles, and as old, if not older, as a word belonging 
 to the household of faith, than they are. He said the word Y^xBoKmn 
 (catholtUe) was prefixed to the Epistle of James in the year 1549, by 
 Robert Stephens, or Robert Etienne, by which name that famous 
 French printer is better known — about 300 years ago. Yes, and I 
 will show you that here again his learning is at fault, that to the 300 
 years must be added a thousand more, and then that the origin of the 
 word is coeval with Christianity. Before quoting the testimony of St. 
 Gregory Nazianzen, a writer ofthe 4th century, I will observe, that seven 
 of the epistles found in the Catholic or Protestant Testaments, are call- 
 ed catholic, or canonical, as not having been addressed to any particu 
 lar church, or person, if we except the 2d and 3d of St. John, but to all 
 the churches. Five of these epistles, viz. that of St. James, the 2d of 
 St. Peter, the 2d and 3d of St. Joim, the epistle of St. Jude, as also the 
 epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews, and the Apocalypse, or book of 
 Revelation of .St. John, were doubted of, and not always and every 
 where received in the three first ages, till the canon and catalogue of 
 the books of scripture were determined by the authority ofthe Catho- 
 lic church, the supreme judge of all controversies in matters of faith 
 and religion, according to the appointment of our Savior, Christ, ex- 
 pressed in many places in the holy scriptures. These I have men- 
 tioned were certainly, for some time, doubted of; they arc still doubt- 
 ed of by sonic of llie late reformers. liUther, the great doctor ofthe 
 reformation, is not ashamed to say, that this epistio of St. James, is no 
 belter than straw, and univorlhi/ an apostle. Speaking of these epis- 
 tles, then, Gregory Nazianzen, at that early period, uses the word Cath- 
 olic, and designates them i>y that natn<; : 
 
 " T<nc /uiv w-7ot <^a.'TH, hi /i t^i/c /uo»«c 
 
 " Nllstir St IltT^K, THI'/l laatKHI fAlXI. 
 
 Greg. JVazianzen, Carmen de Canon. Script. 
 In English — "Some say there are seven Catholic epistles, others
 
 56 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 that there are only three — one of James, one of Peter, and one of John." 
 So much for the fourth age. Does not my friend say his prayers? 
 Does not every Protestant unite wiin every Catholic in saying, "I 
 believe in the holy Catholic church," as we are taught in the apostles' 
 creed? Speaking of this most ancient formula of faith, composed, as 
 it is believed, by the apostles themselves, before they separated for 
 the great work of preaching to all nations, that it may be lor ever a 
 bond of union and an abridgment of sound apostolic belief, Wadding- 
 ton says, p. 46. "The creed which was first adopted, and thai perhaps 
 in the very earliest age, by the church of Rome, was that which is now 
 called the apostles' creed ; and it was the general opini ;n from the 
 fourth century downwards, that it was actual/i/ the production of those 
 blessed persons assembled for that purpose; our evidence is not sufficient 
 to establish that fact, and some writers very confidently reject it. 
 But there is reasonable ground for our assurance that the form of faith, 
 which we still repeat and inculcate, was in use and power in the very 
 early propagation of our religion."* Now will the gentleman tell 
 us that the word Catholic — was unknown to antiquity 1 
 
 You will perceive, my friends, that until the very minute Mr. Camp- 
 bell speaks, I know not what he is going to say. You will not won- 
 der that following him, my discourse should be desultory and rambling. 
 I am here under every disadvantage to which a speaker can be subject. 
 Obliged to leave the beaten highway and follow him through the 
 thickets into which, he finds it useful to plunge so frequently. 
 
 I have at this moment in my hand, a copy of the New Testament, a 
 beautiful edition, published in Glasgow, a Presbyterian city, and also 
 an edition of Robert Etienne. Behold (displaying them) the title 
 " Catholic," prefixed in both, to these epistles. 
 
 I have now established the fact that Catholic was the ancient name 
 of the church — that no other than the Roman Catholic was entitled to 
 that name — that the Roman Catholic church is the Catholic church 
 of all ages, that in all ages it has had a head. For we may call the 
 pope by any name we please, the name is nothing. It is the station, 
 and the incumbent thereof, that it is important to ascertain, and the 
 noonday is not clearer than that both existed from the very origin of the 
 christian religion in Rome. 
 
 He argues against the supremacy of Rome from the circumstance 
 that all the ecclesiastical words are Greek. 
 
 This is not at all surprising. There was not a particle of the Scrip- 
 tures originally written in Latin. Surely my friend must be hard pres- 
 sed for want of argument, when he grasps at such a floating, improba- 
 ble, airy one as that! Words are but the signs of ideas. But he af- 
 firms that all the epistles are written to Greek cities. Was then none 
 of these epistles written to Rome ! And was Rome a Greek city ? 
 Does not Paul surpass himself — does he not reason most deeply 
 in that epistle 1 Does he not style the Romans the " Called of Jesus 
 Christ ; the beloved of God ]" Does he not say, 1st ch. v. 3, " I give 
 thanks to my God, through Jesus Christ, for you all, because your 
 faith is spoken of in the whole world" ? Is it not in that epistle that 
 
 • A note to Waddin^on on this subject, contains tin: foUowiiif; ri'iiiark : " Ig- 
 natius, Justin, and Irenaeus, make no mention of it, but they occasionally repeat 
 some words, contained in it, which is held as a proof that they knew it by heart."
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 57 
 
 he confounds the Jows, by provin£r that the ceremonial works of the 
 law avail them nothing towards salvation, and the Gentiles by shew- 
 ing that their shameful excesses, notwithstandinnr the boasted lights 
 of philosophy, involved them equally with the rejected Jews in the 
 divine malediction 1 Does he not devote eleven chapters of this epis- 
 tle to establish solidly the fundamental doctrines of the christian faithi 
 
 Finally, was not the church of Rome at least as ancient as the church 
 of Corinth? 
 
 My friend spoke of transubstantiation, and purgatory. These will 
 come in their proper place in the debate. 
 
 The conclusion of all his arguments is, that the Roman Catholic 
 church is a sect. This, I may venture to say, he has failed to prove. 
 Indeed he has done any thing but prove it ; for he has in fact strengthen- 
 ed my grounds of defence, for the more he has questioned my authori- 
 ties and arguments, the more signally have I established them. 
 
 My friend is correct in saying that to prove the church not Catholic, 
 is to prove her neither holy nor apostolic. Had he acted on this hint, 
 and compressed his first three propositions into one, and condensation 
 is all important in discussion, he would have greatly abridged his own 
 labor, and saved this audience and myself much loss of time. I have 
 proved that the Roman Catholic church is now the only church 
 that is, as a church, (and not as a band of sailors or travellers without any 
 fixed habitation,) spread over the entire world ; that she only lias been 
 60 from the beginning, lo the exclusion of every sect : that she alone 
 now bears, that she alone has ever borne the name of Catholic; that 
 no other denomination, no sect now has or ever had a right to it — and 
 that, as she is Catholic, she is also holy, she is apostolic, she is 
 divine, and consequently the only true church of Christ. By the 
 same strictness of investigation and of reasoning, by the same 
 splendid eviJtnce (f furls, 1 will prove that she alone is united in 
 faith and goveriuiient as the true church should be ; for Christ 
 prayed for his disciples the night before he suffered, "that they 
 may be one, as thou Father in Heaven and I are one." Now in what 
 church shall we seek for this unity 1 We shall see that, later in the de- 
 bate, for notwithstanding the admission of my friend, we must plod our 
 weary rcjuiid, debating these propositions as lu; has penned them. But 
 the gentleman says, " the Roman Catholic church Hssuwfs every thing." 
 No, my brethren, it is not so. When she can so validly establish her 
 claim, she docs not, she has no occasion to asunme any thing. She 
 proves all things, and holds fast to them because they are good. In 
 the first |)lace we prove from Kcri|)liire tiial ("hrist did establish an 
 earthly head to his church, and tliat that head was the apostle Peter. 
 If not, why did he say to Peter, " Thou art Peter, (a rock) and upon 
 this ruck will I Iniild my chttrrh, and the gates of hell shall not prevail 
 against ii"] Again, Ik; did give him a preeminence over the other 
 apostles. If not, why did ho say to him, I,uke, xxii. .TJ, "Simon, 
 Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you (in the plural, that is, all 
 the apostles) that he may sift you as wheat, but I have ))rayed for thee 
 that thi/ faith fail not, and thou being ronvr'ricd, rtinfirm tin/ lirrthren" ? 
 He told Peter that he wouhl deny iiini — that lie wonld \';\\\ — hut he at 
 the same time chi'ered him by the divine assurance thai his fill should 
 not be for ever, that he would arise from it, and that after his transitory 
 humiliation, no longer presumptuously confiding in his own strength, 
 
 8
 
 58 DEBATE O.N TIIK 
 
 but placinur all his trust in God, he should not only securely stand him- 
 self before both Jews and Gentiles, but likewise strengthen and sup- 
 port his brethren. For this Christ prayed for Peter, and the Father 
 who also loves the church, heard and he will ever hear that prayer. 
 The faith of Peter hath never failed. When did he ever say this to 
 the other apostles 1 Peter is named first, when the apostles are enu- 
 merated ; he speaks first in the meeting- of the apostles and brethren, 
 and gives instructions to proceed to the choosing an apostle in the place 
 of the Iscariot, He is the first to reproach the Jews with deicide, and at 
 his preaching eight thousand are converted. He is sent by an angel 
 from heaven, to the gentile Cornelius ; is released from prison by an 
 angel ; confirms the Samaritans with St. John : healeth j^iineas at Lyd- 
 da : raiseth Tabitha from death at Joppa ; founds the first see among 
 the gentiles at Anlioch. lie speaks first in the council at Jerusalem, 
 "men, brethren, «&;c." Acts, xv. "and all the multitude among whom 
 there had been previously, much disputing, held their peace," " Then 
 after three years" says St. Paul, Gal. i. 13. "I went to Jerusalem to 
 see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days." And ch. 2. v, 1, "Then 
 after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem, and I went up ac- 
 cording to revelation, and conferred with them the gospel which I preach 
 among the gentiles, lest perhaps I should run, or had run in vain." 
 
 IMy friend says that this assumption is followed by injurious effects, 
 religious and political, inconsequence of the power wielded by a single 
 individual. This directly impeaches the foreknowledge and sanctity 
 of Christ. He established the power, and from its exercise within the 
 just limits, which he has prescribed, I maintain that no consequences 
 injurious either to religious or civil society can ever ensue. History 
 attests, and I have quoted some striking instances from the records of 
 the Greek church, that the power of the popes was conservative. Their 
 influence has ever been most favorable to the best interests of society 
 as well as of religion. They were the friends of peace, the patrons 
 of learning, the umpires of angry princes and hostile nations on the 
 one hand, while on the other they preserved pure and uncontaminated, 
 the holy deposit of the truth and proscribed error. Confined to its pro- 
 per sphere the influence of the head of the church must needs be salu- 
 tary ; must, if God was wise, be beneficial and far above reproach. 
 This power has been exerted for the welfare of society under every form 
 of government, monarchical, aristocratical, mixed, and republican. It 
 is the friend of all. It is irrecpncileable with none, but of the tempo- 
 ral influence of the popes it will be time enough to speak in its proper 
 place. I will now proceed to show that the want of an ecclesiastical 
 superior, whom all are bound to obey, lets in a deluge of evils, and 
 these irremediable, on every religious body that wants a head. Reason, 
 alone should attest this truth, without further illustration. The sheep- 
 fold over which there has been placed no shepherd, will soon be the 
 prey of the wolf. The school in which no teacher presides, the soci- 
 ety which recognises no chief magistrate, wjll not fail to exhibit a 
 scene of confusion, and must finally be dissolved. Let us appeal to 
 experience. What has multiplied the (so called) christian sects to 
 such an excess that neither the evil nor the remedy can be any longer 
 endured in Protestant communions] It is the principle contended for 
 by my opponent. It is this, as bishop Smith justly observes, more 
 prolific than the knife that divides the polypus, that daily multiplies
 
 EO:<U.X CATHOLIC BELIGIOX. 59 
 
 divisions and produces new sects in Christianity. Hear a late number 
 of the Baptist Banner, speaking of this controversy. It says : — 
 
 " But to be serious, ne cannot believe that any good will follow this debate. 
 But too much excitement is attempted to be gotten up against the Roman Ca- 
 tholics — an excitement bordering on intolerance. Could we feel assured, either 
 from his course in this instance or from a retrospect of his past life, that Mr. 
 Campbell sought this discussion solely to vindicate truth and expose error, and 
 not ostentatiously to exhibit his tact m debate and to reap a pecuniarj- harvest 
 by a new publication, we might feel less distrust of conseq\iences, and should 
 have some faint hope that probably good would ensue; but credulous, nay, stu- 
 pid must be the man, who in looking over the circumstances which have con- 
 curred in originating this debate, can suppose that any religious or commendable 
 motive prompted him to throw the gauntlet and provoke the controversy. In 
 looking over his past career, a love of truth and a desire to promote the peace 
 and prosperity of Zion, have not been the prominent traits which have marked 
 his character and rendered conspicuous his course. [Bishop P. was here called 
 to order; Mr. Campbell also here observed, that as he had read the worst part 
 of the article he might read the balance; and the point of order being examin- 
 ed, the board decided that he was in order.] \Ve do not speak for other 
 places, but in Kentucky he has caused more serious injury to the cause of reli- 
 gion, more disturbance, more wrangling, collision, and division in societv, in a 
 few years, than in our humble judgment, the Catholics can ever do. lint we 
 forbear. The debate will take place. The Campbellites will sip delicious wis- 
 dom from the lips of their leader. A new impuKe will be given to their now 
 drooping state. They will again wage his high claims to competency to reform 
 religion and introduce the Millennium. And Mr. Campbell will have the proud 
 satisfaction of rendering great good — to himself by the sr.lc of another book! 
 This will be about all that will result from this discussion." 
 
 1 knew not until yesterday that the Baptists were opposed to Mr. 
 Campbell ; but as necessarily as the stream flows from its source, 
 do these disastrous effects which the Baptist Banner deprecates, flow 
 from the system which acknowledores no head in religious matters, 
 but allows every individual, qualified or disqualified, to give his own 
 crude fancies for the revelation of lieaven. 
 
 The Zion's Advocate of the 28th ult. and the Palladium of the 7th 
 inst. give similar testimony against the radicalism of my friend. But 
 I spare him the reading. You can now judge of the tree by its fruits : 
 his are bitterness and confusion, those of the Catholics, admitting a 
 supremacy in the church, are order, unity and peace. His rule neces- 
 sarily creates enmities and endless altercations in the church; the Ca- 
 tholic rule cuts them iij) by the very roots, and not only arrests their 
 growth, but renders their very existence impossible. 
 
 Mr. Campbell said that the Roman Catholic church was an apos- 
 i^cy from the true CJiurr/i, and that this event, so important in the an- 
 nals of the world, took jilaee precisoly on the lOlh of July 10.51, when 
 she separated from the Greek church. It is a pity, as he intended to 
 be so partictilar, that he did not tell us whether it was old sh//c oriicii'. 
 
 But perceiving the terrible effect of this admission, upon his argu- 
 ment, be retraces his steps, and taking us all aback, he says that the 
 Greek church was not after all the true cburrh of Christ, anfl thus he 
 lias left us as much in the dark as over. Remember I told him how 
 much it bad puzzled the world and would puzzle him to settle that 
 point. I ask him again then, if the lioirian Catholic church apostatiz- 
 ed from the rhiirrh of f^hrist at the pfriod in qiicslion, and the Greek 
 church, from which she separated, was as corrupt as liersclf, where 
 was, at that timo, the true church'? Ciod's covenant with her, Iv/.cch. 
 xxxvii. C"2, was an everlasting covenant of peace, a covenant, like that 
 of day and night, to last for all generations, Jrc. xxxiii, 20, 21, al-
 
 60 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ways visible, Ts. ii. 2. 3. Michors iv. t. 3. spread far and near, and 
 tPichinor many nations, Ps. xi. 8. Dan. xi. 35. 44. Malnch. i. 11. 
 The pillar and the ijround of truth, unfailiiifr; the gates of hell were 
 nevi^r to prevail against her. If all tliese glorious prophecies were not 
 fulfilled in the Roman Catholic church, in what other church were they 
 fulfilled'? When will my friend answer ine"? 
 
 Mr. C. observes that the Roman ('atholic church or the see of Peter, 
 assumes to be the representative of Christ in all his power, ecclesiasti- 
 cal and political, and that as Christ was supreme head over all the 
 earth, temporal and spiritual, so was Peter, and so are his successors. 
 
 I have already shewn that this is no part or parcel of the Catholic 
 doctrine. The pope's power is spiritual, his kingdom like that of 
 Christ, is not of this world. He has not a solitary inch of ground 
 over which to exercise temporal authority in any territory on earth, be- 
 yond the narrow limits of the papal states ; and the authority with 
 which he is there invested rather originated in the people's preference 
 of the bishop's crosier to the kingly sceptre, than in any views he could 
 himself, have cherished of worldly aggrandizement. Hear Gibbon, in. 
 vol. p. 230., Phil. 18.30. "The want of laws could only be supplied 
 by the influence of religion, and their foreign and domestic counsels 
 were moderated by the authority of the bishop. His alms, his ser- 
 mons, his correspondence with the king and prelates of the west, his 
 recent services, their gratitude, an oath, accustomed the Romans to 
 consider him as the first magistrate. The christian humility of the 
 popes was not oiTended by the name of doininits or lord, and their face 
 and inscription is still apparent on the most ancient coins. Their tem- 
 poral dominion is now confirmed by the reverence of a thousand years ; 
 and their noblest title is the free choice of a people, wiiom they had 
 redeemed from slavery." 
 
 I had a great deal of other ground to go over on this point, but my 
 time is limited ; and I will now proceed to review one of the most 
 dreadful charges ever made against a pope of Rome, and to show that 
 it is totally without foundation. 
 
 If I understood Mr. C. aright, he asserted, that it was the pope Gre- 
 gory consecrated Phocas the centurion king, in the church of St. John 
 the Baptist in Constantinople, and that he did so, contrary to every law 
 of God, or man, for the base, the iniquitous purchase of the title of pope. 
 
 "(Mr. Campbell reasserted the charge.) 
 
 Now I aver that the charge is unfounded and false. I mean no dis- 
 respect to Mr. C. He would not intentionally deceive this assembly 
 or wilfully sustain by calumny an otherwise hopeless cause. But 
 leaving motives to their proper judge, I shall now prove to this audi- 
 ence that he has stated what is not true, and alleged odious charges 
 against the pope which he cannot substantiate. On his own reputa- 
 tion for accuracy and his knowledge of history let the penally for ever 
 rest, of having been this day detected before so many of his fellow 
 citizens, egregiously at fault in both. Hormisdas king of Persia, indig- 
 nant at the defeat of his general Varamus (see Natalis Alex. saec. sext. 
 Art. V. p. 226,) sends him a petticoat in derision. The war is renew- 
 ed ; Mauritius loses 12000 troops, taken prisoners by the Chagano ; he 
 refuses to release them by paying the humble ])ittance set as a price on 
 the head of each by the victor ; they are butchered in cold blood ; his 
 people, shocked at his avarice and cruelty revolt — Mauritius abdicates —
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 61 
 
 the people choose the centurion, Phocas, to reign over them in his 
 stead ; the patriarch nf Constantinople consecrates Phocas king, in the 
 church of St. John the Baptist, in C. P. The entire story is thus re- 
 lated by Gibbon. 
 
 "The troops of Maurice nii'oht listen to the voice of a victorious leader, they 
 disdained the admonitions of statesmen and sophists, and when they received an 
 edict which deducted from their pay the price of their arms and clothing-, they 
 execrated the avarice of a prince insensible of the dangers and fatigues from which 
 he had escaped: and every age must condemn the inhumanitj' or avarice ol a 
 prince, who by the tritling ransom of six thousand pieces of gold, might have pre- 
 vented the massacre of 12,000 prisoners in the hands of the Chagan. In the first 
 fervor of indignation, an order was signified to the army of the Danube, that 
 they should spare the magazines of the province, and establish their winter-quar- 
 ters in the hostile country of the Avars. The measure of their grievances was 
 full : they pronounced ^Iaurice unworthy to reign, expelled or slaughtered his 
 faithful adherents, and, under the command of Fhocas, a simple centurion, return- 
 ed by hasty marches to the neighborliood of Constantinople. 
 
 "The rigid and parsimonious virtues of Maurice had lon°: since alienated the 
 hearts of his subjects; and a vile plebeian, who represented his countenance and 
 apparel, was seated on an ass, and pursued by the imprecations of the multitude.* 
 The emperor suspected the popularity of Germanus with the soldiers and citi- 
 zens; he feared, he threatened, but he delayed to strike; the patrician fled to 
 the sanctuary of the church; tlie people rose in his defence, the walls were de- 
 serted by the guards, and the lawless city was abandoned to the flames and ra- 
 pine of nocturnal tumult. In a small bark the unfortunate Maurice, with his wife 
 and nine children, escaped to the Asiatic shore; but the violence of the wind 
 compelled him to land at the church of St. Antoninus, near Chalcedon, from 
 whence he despatched Theodosius, his eldest son, to implore the gratitude and 
 friendship of the Persian monarch. For himself, he refused to fly. His body 
 was tortured with sciatic pains, his mind w'as enfeebled by s\iperstition; he pa- 
 tiently awaited the event of the revolution, and addressed a fervent and public 
 prayer to the Almighty, that the punishment of his sins might be inflicted in this 
 world, rather than in a future liie. After the abdication of Maurice, the two 
 factions disputed the choice of an emperor; but the favorite of the blues, was re- 
 jected by the jealousy of their antagonists, and Germanus himself was hurried 
 along by the crowds, who rushed to the palace of Hebdomen, seven miles from 
 the cit_^, to adore the majesty of I'hocas, the centurion. A modest wish of re- 
 signing the purple to the rank and merit of Germanus was opposed by his resolu- 
 tion, more obstinate, and equally sincere : the senate ana clergy obeyed this 
 lunmions. and as soon iis Ihc patriarch was assured iifhis ortliodox bclirf, he con- 
 secrnled the succe».-ful umrjjer in the church of St. .lolin the Baptist." Gibbon; 
 sixth Amer. F.dit. of the Hist, of the Decline and Fall of the Koman I'.mpirc. Pacre 
 18». \ol. iii. A. D. IR.W. 
 
 Thus it appears that Gregory did not act the part assigned him by 
 my friend, and that this accusation turns out to be, like a thousand 
 others, taken up at second liand, without examination or suspicion of 
 falsehood or incorrectness, atrainst tlio [)opo, a mere fabrication with- 
 out a shadow of foundation in history! What will tiiis enliirlitcned 
 audience now say ? What apolojry is my friend pre])ared to make 
 for having unconsciously led them into error ] This case may illustrate 
 many others that are similar, and I beg it may not be forgotten. 
 Napoleon, I'cpin, &r. are parallels, the ponlifl' cfnild not resist the 
 will of an entire peo[)lo ; and it would only perpetuate lawless vio- 
 lence and disorder to contest a claim to the throne, to which no ono 
 was able to support his rival pretensions. The pope, seeing that the 
 
 • In their cliunors Rgninit Maurice, the people of Constantinople branded him 
 with the n.inie of Marrionitc or Marcioiiist; a hereby, (says Theopliyliirl, Lib. 
 viil. c. 9.) /"It" Ti»!< /««.;»{ »u>.»Sii«( iviiSi!, Ti ««i Kiri^ i>.«o-Tt(. Did they only 
 cost out a vague r«proac)i,or had the emperor really listened to some obscure 
 teacher of Ihojc ancit nt Gnostics 7
 
 62 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 people, who had the right, selected themselves a new ruler, like a 
 true lover of peace and friend of established order, conijratulated Phocas 
 on his election, and used tiie language of scripture, be it observed, in 
 liis letter, because anarchy was at an end, and an orthodox and gener- 
 ous prince substituted on the throne of C. P. for a tyrant, a miser, and 
 a suspected Marcionite heretic. Mauritius may have died penitent, 
 but he reigned without love for his subjects. 
 
 We were spoken to of the president of the U. S. He has the same 
 power and authority as Washington had while the constitution of the 
 country endures. And as long as the constitution of the church en- 
 dures, the successors of Peter have the authority of Peter. If there 
 was ever to come a time, when the true church was to fail, Jesus 
 Christ was bound by his wisdom and love to foretell it. If it was his 
 intention to forsake the church, and if the power and authorities of all 
 the regularly constituted orders were to fail, he never should have 
 given it the promise of perpetual e;idurance, and the precise period, and 
 all the different circumstances of its defection should have been more 
 clearly and emphatically revealed, than any other event in the scrip- 
 ture. It is needless to add that such defection is not foretold ; but on 
 the contrary it is repeatedly declared by the Son of God, that his 
 church should stand forever, that bis Holy Spirit should abide with it 
 all days, that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it. What is 
 the meaning of the words "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against 
 if?" In the east, laws were enacted, justice administered, and the 
 sages and people assembled for deliberation at the gates of the cities. 
 Hence the expression denotes, wisdom, subtlety, malice. Again, 
 when a city was invaded by a hostile army, the hottest fighting was 
 around its gates. In them and around them, were all the energies of 
 the conflicting hosts put forth — and on the issue of the battle was sus- 
 pended a nation's weal or woe. Thus by the gates of Hell are clearly 
 meant, all the craft and power of Hell, the malice of heresy and er- 
 ror, the force and violence of persecution. All these shall rage around 
 the church in vain, for Christ is in the citadel, and his Holy Spirit is the 
 sentinel that guards its outposts and defences from being overthrown 
 by error. But he says that the apostles had all power given to them 
 — grant it — but what was the nature of that power? what was its ex- 
 tent ? It was a power to teach all nations. The weapon of their war- 
 fare was not carnal but spiriti^al ; " for our wrestling,'* says St. Paul, 
 Ephes. VI. 12. "is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities 
 and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the 
 spirits of wickedness in the high places." " Behold," says Christ, " I 
 send you as lambs in the midst of wolves. Carry not with you scrip 
 nor stafT, &c. Be not solicitous for the morrow, what you shall eat, or 
 wherewithal you shall be clothed. Behold the lilies of the field, they 
 BOW not, neither do they spin — and yet your Heavenly Father clotheth 
 them — careth for them — how much more ye, &,c." By patience they 
 were to run towards the fight proposed to them, and by patience they tri- 
 umphed over their persecutors. The pope, should occasion require, 
 viiW show himself the faithful imitator of these heroic models. Were 
 he stript to-morrow of all external, temporal power whatever, and a 
 poor wanderer among the mountains of the moon in Abyssinia, he 
 would have no less power, and would be, for aught I know, no less 
 respected, than he is at present. His chief authority is, thank God,
 
 koma:* catholic religion. 63 
 
 such as this world can neither give nor take away. It was given for 
 the salvation of the people of God, and as lonjr as there is a soul to be 
 saved, a sheep to be brouorht back to the fold, or a spiritual conquest 
 achieved for the glory of Christ, and the praise of his grace, so long 
 shall that power survive; when all else decays, itself, amidst vicissi- 
 tudes unchanged, shall flourish in immortal youth. 
 
 For our sakes, in this distant province of creation, and at this late age, 
 as well as for those who saw the Word made flesh conversing among 
 men, was this commission given and this authority conferred. Our 
 souls were no less dear to Christ than were those of the first be- 
 lievers of glad tidings — and Cincinnati was the rival of Jerusalem in 
 the Savior's love ! With him there was no exception of persons — 
 neither past nor future. He provided for every casualty which he 
 foreknew should happen in the lapse of ages — he anticipated every 
 favorable or adverse circumstance that should afiect the condition of 
 his church, and with divine wisdom he adapted its constitutions to the 
 peculiar exigencies of every age and nation and individual believer, 
 until W3 reach "the consummation of the world." He sent his apos- 
 tles with power to ordain faithful men, who should in their turn be fit 
 to teach others. This is the charge that St. Paul repeated to Titus, 
 and thus has the succession of apostolic teachers been continued from 
 nation to nation, and from age to age, the church gaining in one region 
 of the earth what she had lost in another, renewing her youth like the 
 eagles, increasing her members, and daily transmitting to the bright 
 realms of heavenly glory innumerable multitudes of her children of 
 every clime and tongue, and peculiarity of social government or manners. 
 
 The apostles exercised various functions — I admit it. But they 
 substituted the deacons to wait on tables, and distribute the alms, so 
 do their successors ; Christ gave them powers adequate to every 
 emergency. 
 
 It has been wrongly asserted, that Moses had no successor. Joshua 
 was, in one important branch, his successor, for it devolved on him to 
 lead the people into tlie land of promise, and without this consummation, 
 the ministry of Moses would have been in vain ; and there are Joshuas 
 now whoso oflice it is to lead the people to their spiritual Canaan — 
 and as Cod obeyed the voice of Joshua, in commanding the sun to 
 stand still, so he now obeys the voice of his priests making suppli- 
 cation for his people. Here is an obvious analogy between the old 
 and the nev.- covenants. My friend argues that, liecause Moses had 
 no successor, Peter could have none, and the apostles none; l)ut it is 
 clear that Moses had a successor. All that Moses arcompiislicd wmild 
 have been incomplete without a succession of ministry to carry on tlio 
 work of Cnd in favor of his people, Israel. This, Kusebius beauti- 
 fully establishes, p. 40. So by the same analogy, it is necessary that 
 the succession of an apostolic priosihood hIioiiM be continued forllic car- 
 rying on of the christian dispf-nsation, and be transmitted ddWii frnni or n. 
 eration of spiritual guides to generation, until they shall have coiKhiitcd 
 all the people of Cod to the true land of promise, where I trust we shall 
 all meet, and cease to dispute, as we now do, like little children, at 
 the imminent risk of neglecting the weigliiier points of ibe law. For 
 myself, I am heartily siek o\' such interiniiialde rontrntion. Hero 
 would I stop and Kufi"er the matter to end without anoliier word, if iho 
 ■ad necessity was not imposed upon mo of defending the impugned
 
 64 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tenets of my church, and giving with my voice the testimony which, 
 with the divine assistance, 1 should not hesitate to seal with my blood, 
 to the truths of the Roman Catholic faith. From the discharge of this 
 duty, no true believer, still more no minister of God, should shrink ; 
 and it is worthy of notice that, with all the love and humility of St. 
 Paul, he should have warned his disciple Timothy, and still more the 
 body of the faithful, against associating with "heretics." I never use 
 this word, as it is now so harshly understood, to designate those who 
 differ from me in religion ; but I know not how any human being is to 
 determine without the aid of a competent tribunal, who are heretics, 
 and who are not; for we cannot look into the heart. 
 
 I am told that an English divine was accustomed humorously to de- 
 fine these terms in this way. "Orthodoxy is my doxy and heterodoxy 
 is yours." But seriously, what being on earth can look into the secrets 
 of the heart? Who was to determine when heresy occurred 1 That 
 it existed in the early days of the church none can doubt. The apostles 
 denounced it. They delivered its authors to Satan (of whom St. Paul 
 says, are Hymeneus and Alexander whom I have delivered to Satan, that 
 they may learn not to blaspheme. 1st Tim. 1. 20.) The apostles did 
 not suffer their disciples to make this discrimination for themselves, in 
 defiance of the express word of God. They did not allow every man 
 to assert the right of private judgment on scripture, which they taught 
 was of no "private interpretation." 2 Peter, 1. 20. The very form 
 " understanding thisfirsV exceedingly strengthens the text. Divisions 
 will ever exist. They are, unfortunately, as nahii-al to depraved man, 
 as vice; and but little, if at all less fatal. '■'■There were also false 
 prophets among the people,'''' says St. Peter, 2d Ep. xi, 1, even as 
 there shall he among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of 
 perdition, and again v. 10 and 12, " They fear not to bring in sects, 
 blaspheming those things that they know not, promising their disciples 
 liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption." These 
 are fountains without water, clouds tossed with whirlwinds, or as St. 
 Jude says, V. 13, "raging waves of the sea, foaming out of their 
 own confusion, wandering stars to whom the storm of darkness is re- 
 served for ever." Who would trust his safety in a perilous voyage 
 to an unskilful pilot ? W^ho would risk the horrors of the deep without 
 chart or compass 1 Has God abandoned his children so far as to leave 
 them a prey to every innovator, every wolf in sheep's clothing? Is 
 there no ark of safety for man, while the waters of error overspread 
 the earth ? Yes, my friends, there is. It is the church. That ark 
 alone can save the world. "Whosoever," says St. .John, 2d Ep. 9, 
 10, "revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not 
 God. If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive 
 him not into the house, nor say to him, ' God speed you.' For he that 
 sayeth 'God speed you,' communicatelh with his wicked works." 
 This admonition, we understand to be directed against false religions 
 and false teachers. It does not forbid charity, which we owe to all 
 men, and particularly the erring; for whom, we are taught it to he our 
 duty to pray, that they may happily come to the knowledge of 
 truth. 
 
 I confess that, for my part, I cannot practise this doctrine literally, 
 nor refuse to salute one who differs from me in faith. I retain my 
 own convictions and eschew his errors. The apostles did differently,
 
 R05IAN CATHOLIC RELtGION". 65 
 
 and who will presume to say, they were not more enlightened than we T 
 When St. John met Cerinthus (who denied the divinity of Christ) in 
 the baths of Ephesus, he ran out saying that he was afraid the baths 
 would fall upon him. And when his disciple St. Polycarp met Mar- 
 cion, in the streets of Rome, he refused to salute him. " Do you not 
 know me V said Marcion. " 1 do know you," replied Polycarp, " to be 
 the oldest son of the Devil." This shows the dread of religious inno- 
 vators entertained by the apostles of Christ and by their disciples, the 
 <langerous result of heresy.— [Time expired.] 
 
 Half -past 1 1 o'clock, J.. M. 
 Mr. Campbell rises — 
 
 I am sorry that I cannot sympathize with the gentleman in his em- 
 barrassment, occasioned, as he alleges, in being obliged to respond 
 promptly to objections to his doctrmes, which, he says, he cannot anti- 
 cipate. So far as he is placed in the predicament of a respondent to 
 my allegations, he has no one to blame but himself. When arrang- 
 ing the preliminaries as to the mode in which this discussion was to 
 be conducted, the gentleman perseveringly insisted that I should lead 
 the way, commencing every session ; and that, whether the proposition 
 were affirmative or negative, he must always respond. It was a sine 
 qua nan with him, that he should always have the last word. I 
 would, as an apology for giving him such an advantage, inform my au- 
 dience, that on no other condttiotiwould he consent to meet me. If, how- 
 ever, he sincerely dislikes the arrangement, I am willing to alter it, 
 and change places with him to-morrow. The affirmative, should, in 
 all right, and by universal usage, open, and the respondent follow, in 
 debate. 
 
 I regard this discussion, my friends, as a very serious and important 
 affair, involving in it the very best interests of the whole community. 
 I do not appear here to speak for myself alone in behalf of Protestant- 
 ism, or to you alone. I speak for my contemporaries, and for the great 
 cause of truth; and I am glad for their sake that this debate is imme- 
 xliately to go to record. I must, tliercfore, give as connected a form 
 as circumstances will permit to my argument. For this reason, I 
 passed over some things in the speech of yesterday that I might finish 
 my first argument this morning. I unfortunately, however, forgot to 
 notice them before I commenced my second proposition. 
 
 I will now recapitulate. — 
 
 The question was asked me, yesterday evening, "Where was the 
 true church before the time of th(^ filreok schism?" I observed, this 
 morning, in answer, that my having shown the Greek church to be the 
 Senior, or the original of the Roman, did not necessarily involve the 
 idea thai the (ircrk rhtirch was at the time, of separation the true Catholic 
 church. To this answer the gentleman has not replied ; but yet reiter- 
 ates the (|\iestion. His assunijilion of a church of nations with a poli- 
 tical head, having always existed, so confounds him that he cannot see 
 a church without a pope, or a national establishment. I might ask, 
 in reply, where was the church before the days of f/onstantine 1 
 
 We can, however, show that from the earliest times there has ex- 
 isted a people whom no man can rfmembcr, that have earnestly and 
 consistently contended for the true faith onn delivered to the saints. 
 If he requires me to put my finger on the page of history on which is 
 F 2 9
 
 60 DEBATK ON TIlK 
 
 described the commencement of the degrenerary of the Roman diocer?o 
 from the true faith, I will turn back to about the year of our Lord 250. 
 Then the controversy between Cornelius and Novatian, about the 
 bishopric of Rome, embraced the points at issue, which separated the 
 true church from that which was then grievously contaminated with 
 error and immorality. It was, indeed, a controversy about the purity 
 of communion and discipline, rather than about articles of doctrine. 
 And it is worthy of remark, that such was the principal issue made at 
 that time, altiiough the doctrine of Christianity will not long continue 
 pure in a degenerate communil)'. 
 
 I have here, before me, Euscbius, the oldest of ecclesiastical histo- 
 rians, who informs us that Novatus and his party were called 
 Cathari or Puritans. And, although he appears greatly incensed a- 
 gainst Novatus and his party, he can record no evil against them ex- 
 cept their " inichariiabkuess,'''' in refusing to commune with those of 
 immoral and doubtful character. 
 
 The gentleman has given you his definition of orthodoxy and hete- 
 rodoxy : my definition is — the strong party is the orthodox, and the 
 weak party is the heterodox. 
 
 I hold in my hand one of the latest and best historians — Wadding- 
 ton. My learned opponent has already introduced him to your ac- 
 quaintance. He is a Fellow of Trinity college, Cambridge, and 
 Prebendary of Ferring, in the cathedral church of Chichester. The 
 account he gives of these reformers is sustained by Jones and other 
 ecclesiastical historians. I prefer Waddington for his brevity and 
 perspicuity. He says : 
 
 " We may conclude with sonic notice of the sect of the Novatians who were 
 stigmatized at the time both as schismatics and heretics; but who may perhaps 
 be more properly considered as the earliest body of ecclesiastical reformers. 
 They arose at Rome about the year 250, A. D. and subsisted until the fifth cen- 
 tury througliout every part of Cnristendoni. Novatian, a presbyter of Rome was 
 a man of great talents and learning, and of character so austere, that he was un- 
 willing, under any circumstances of contrition, to re-admit those who had been 
 once separated from the communion of the church. And this severity he would 
 have extended not only to those who had fallen by deliberate transgression, but 
 even to such as had made a_ forced compromise of their faith under the terrors of 
 persecution. He considered the christian church as a society, where virtue and 
 innocence reigned universally, and refused any longer to acknowledge as mem- 
 bers of it, those who had once degenerated into unrighteousness. This endea- 
 vor to revive the spotless moral purity of the primitive faith was found inconsis- 
 tent with the corruptions even of that early age; it was regarded with suspicion 
 by the leading prelates, as a vain and visionary scheme; and those rigid princi- 
 ples which had characterized and sanctified the church in the first century, were 
 abandoned to the profession of schismatic sectaries in the third." 
 
 This sounds a little like Protestantism. Our author proceeds : 
 "From a review of what has been written on this subject, some truths may be 
 derived of considerable historical importance; the following are among them : — 
 1. In the midst of perpetual dissent and occasional controversy, a steady and dis- 
 tinguishable line, both in doctrine and practice, was maintained by the early 
 church, and its efforts against those, whom it called heretics, were zealous and 
 persevering, and for the most part consistent. Its contests were fought with the 
 'sword of the spirit,' with the arms of reason and eloquence; and as they were 
 always unattended by personal oppression, so were they most effectually success- 
 ful — successful, not in establishing a nominal unity, nor silencing the expression 
 of private opinion, but in maintaining the purity of the faith, in preserving the 
 attachment of the great majority of the believers, and in consigning, either to im- 
 mediate disrepute, or early neglect, all the unscriptural doctrine* which wero 
 successively arrayed against it."
 
 ROMATT CATHOUC RELIGION. 67 
 
 Other truths are here stated, as consequent from the premises. I ' 
 will however for the satisfaction of my Episcopalian friends read what 
 follows, in this connection on church government. 
 
 "There was vet no dissent on the subject of church government. It was uni- 
 versallv and undisnutably Episcopal ; even the reformer Noyatian, after his ex- 
 pulsioii from the church, assumed the direction of his own rigid sect under the ti- 
 tle of hishop; and if anv dissatisfaction had existed as to the established method 
 of directing the church, it would certainly have displayed itself on the occasion 
 of a schism, which entirely respected matters of practice and discipline." Hist, 
 of the ckh. p. 79. 
 
 These Puritans or reformers spread all over the world, and continu- 
 ed to oppose the pretensions of those who, from being the major par- 
 ty, claimed to be the Catholic or only church. They continued under 
 the name of Novatians for more than two centuries ; but finally were 
 merged in the Donalists, who, indeed, are the same people under ano- 
 ther°name. These Donatists were a very large and prosperous commu- 
 nity. We read of 279 Donatist bishops in one African council. Of 
 these Donatists the same historian deposes: 
 
 " The Donatists have never been charged with the sllghtf st show of truth 
 with any error of doctrine, or any defect in church government or discipline, or 
 any depravity of moral practice ; th»y agreed in every respect with their adver- 
 saries, except one — they did not acknowledge as legitimate the ministry of the 
 African church, but considered their own body to be the true, uncorrupted, uni- 
 versal church." 
 
 Mark it. The Donatists considered iheir otcn body io he the true, 
 urtcorrupted, universal church! "It is quite clear," our author pro- 
 ceeds : 
 
 " It is quite clear, that they pushed their scliism to very great extremities, even 
 to that of rejecting the communion of all, who were in communion with the 
 church which they called false ; but this was the extent of their spiritual oli.nce, 
 even from the assertions of their enemies." li'ad. Hist. p. lo4. 
 
 The Donatists, in some two centuries, were amalgamated with the 
 Paulicians. They, too, were called Puritans. Jones, who has been at 
 the greatest pains to give their history, gives the following account of 
 them : 
 
 " About the year 660, a new sect arose in the east, under the name of PAUU- 
 CIAN8, which is justly entitled to our attention. 
 
 " In Mananalis, an obscure town in the vicinity of Somosatn, a person of the 
 nanic of Conntanline cnttrtained at his house a deacon, who having b<( ii n pris- 
 oner among the Mahometans, wag returning from Syria, whither he had been 
 carried away captive. From this passing stranger Constantine received the pre- 
 ciout gift of the IVcw Testament in its original language, which even at this ear- 
 ly period, was so concealed from the vulgar, that I'eter Siculus, to whom we owe 
 most of our information on the history of the I'aulicians, tells us the first scniplei 
 of a Catholic, when he was advised to read the bible was, "it is not lawful fur us 
 profane personi to read those sacred writings, but for the priests only." liuhcd, 
 the gross ignorance which pervaded Europe at that time, rendered the generMity 
 of the people inra[iable of reading that or any other book ; but even those of the 
 laity who could read, were dissuafled by their religious guides from middling with 
 the Uiblr. Constantine however, made the best use ofthe deacon's present — ho 
 itudied the New Testament with unwearied assiduity — and more particularly tho 
 writingtof the npt^tle I'aul from which he at length endeavored to tleduri' n system 
 of doctrine and worship. ' Me investigated the creed of primitive chriHtinnity,' 
 Myii (fibbon, * and whatever might be the success, a I'rotr slant reader will apjilaud 
 the ii»irit of the mfpiiry.' The knowledge to which Constanline himsril was, un- 
 der the divine blrtumg enabled to attain, heglndly communicated to others around 
 him, and a chriitian rhurrh wa.s collertc<l. In a little time, several individual* 
 arose among them (jualified for the work of the ministry ; and sevend other church- 
 et were collected throughout Aniienia and Cappacfocia. It appears from the 
 whole of their hiatory, to have been a leading object with Conitantine and hit
 
 68 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 brethren to restore os far as possible the profession of Christianity to all its prim- 
 itive simplicity." Jones' Ilisl. Christian clili. }>. 239. 
 
 Again : 
 
 "'I'he Paiijician teachers," says Gibbon, "were distinguished only by their 
 scriptural names, by llie modest title of their fi'How pilgrims ; by the austerity 
 of their lives, their zinl and knowledge, and the credit of some extraordinary 
 gift of the Holy Spirit, liulthey were incapable of desiring, or at least, of ob- 
 luining the wealth and honors of the Catholic prelacy. Sucri anti-christian pride 
 thev strongly censured." — Id. ib. p. 240. 
 
 I mifrht read almost to the same effect from Waddington and Da 
 Pin. True tiiey arc called /icralics by tliose who call themselves Ca- 
 tholic anil us heretics; but what does this prove? 
 
 Until the appearance of the Waldenses and Alhigenses, these Pro- 
 testants continued to oppose the church of nations in the east, and in 
 the west, until at one time they claimed the title of Catholic. We 
 read of hundreds of bishops attending the different councils in which 
 they met to oppose the violent assaults of their enemies. 
 
 It is sometimes difficult to say which were the more numerous party, 
 those in communion with the Cathari, or Puritans, sometimes called 
 Novatians, sometimes Donatists, sometimes Paulicians, sometimes 
 Waldenses; but always, in fact, Protestants. 
 
 The spirit of true religfion seems to have fled from Rome from the 
 first appearance of the Novatians. The first schism at Rome acknow- 
 ledged and recorded by the Roman Catholic historians, is that which 
 occurred at the election of Cornelius over Novatus. Hence Novatus 
 is called the first anti-pope. Du Pin and Barronius amply testify of 
 the violence l)y which St. Peter's chnir was often filled with a vicar 
 after this schism. In the election of Damasus many were killed in the 
 churches of Rome. One hundred and thirty four persons, beaten 
 to death by clubs, were carried out of a single house at this election. 
 Had the Iloly Spirit any thing to do in thus filling the chair of St. Pe- 
 ter with a vicar of Christ! Is the church which permits such things 
 and W'hich has been sustained by such means, the true church of God?' 
 Is the person thus elected; the supreme head of Christ's church — 
 the proper vicar of Christ? ! May we not then say that the spirit of 
 God on that day, had departed from Rome? And may we not add, 
 from the documents before us, that if there be any truth in history^ 
 we have found a succession of witnesses for the ancient faith against 
 Rome, from the days of the first schism till the present hour ? 
 
 There is but another point in the speech of my opponent, to which I 
 ■will now respond. I called on him to explain the difference between 
 the claim of the title of pope, or universal father, (as St. Gregory op- 
 posed it,) and the same claim as now maintained by the head of the 
 church. The name pope, indeed, has in modern times, much changed 
 its meaning; for once it was applied to all bishops, and is now ap- 
 plied to every priest in the Greek church. 13ut when has the title 
 "universal father," been changed? lie alluded, in reply, to the 
 schism between the Greek church and the Roman church. The Greek 
 church, it seems, would not allow that the ordinances of religion with- 
 out their sanction, were validly administered. Is not that the very 
 plea of Rome at this hour? Docs she not say, that the bishops and 
 clergy of the English church are all laymen, because that church se- 
 parated from the Roman church ; and that all the authority she had 
 from her has been since revoked by the authority that gave it ? How
 
 SOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION, 69 
 
 often are we told that the pope has the power of resuming all authority- 
 given him — that he can create, and afterwards destroy 1 that whatever 
 ecclesiastical power he gives, he can take away ; and that therefore 
 all heretics excommunicated and anathematized have no power left to 
 perform the ordinances of religion'? The ground upon which the gen- 
 tleman stands as to his defence of the authority of the pope, is precise- 
 ly the ground of Gregory's opposition to the title, as claimed by Boni- 
 face iii. if I can understand his attempt to explain it. 
 
 But I must advert, before I sit down, to a single point on which I 
 touched in my speech of this morning, viz. that of the councils. The 
 gentleman asks, did not Sylvester the pope preside in the first general 
 council by his legate 1 I affirm that he cannot show documents to 
 prove that fact. — ^Nay, let him show, if he can, that the first seven 
 councils were called by the bishops of Rome, or that his legates were 
 there to preside. 
 
 What would the gentleman prove by the fact, if it be a fact, that a 
 Roman bishop presided over one of these councils 1 That, therefore, 
 they were Roman councils 1 How would such logic pass with us with 
 regard to the house of representatives ] His argument runs thus : Mr. 
 Henry Clay was once speaker of that house, Mr. Clay is from Ken- 
 tucky, therefore, the house of representatives were all Kentuckians f 
 This would be exactly the pith of the logic we have heard. 
 
 My opponent admits the history of the first seven councils which I 
 have given to be correct: but explains it by asserting that all the busi- 
 ness was eastern. But fkcre were western heresies, as well as eastern, 
 and western business as well as eastern transacted in these councils. 
 I therefore object to his exposition of that matter. It would have been 
 impolitic on his exposition to call together eastern men to decide 
 upon eastern heresies. They ought to have sent western men, who 
 would have been more impartial judges. But he has not yet adduced 
 one document, showing that these councils were called for such purpo- 
 ses, or that the cast only was concerned in these questions. 
 
 On the jjrefix " Catholic" to the epistles, the gentleman did not 
 hear me, or did not apprehend my moaning. The argument is not a- 
 bout its anlifjuitij hnl hs authority! Ho has not proved, and cannot 
 prove tiiat it was so prefixed in the first ages, nor that it was ever so 
 applied by any inspired writer. Having brought no documents to 
 prove this, his reasoning is wholly irrelevant. 
 
 But you have been treated, my friends, to a feast from the " Baptist 
 Banner,''^ one of the party cpbemerals opposed to reformation. Un- 
 fortunately for the cause of religion, every age has produced a crop of 
 these special phadiTS for party tcnols. 5lany such a banner was un- 
 furled against Martin Lutlicr, .folin Calvin, Joim Wesley and all re- 
 formers : for they were all iierelics and controversialists. Indeed there 
 never was a good man on earlli who was not a controversialist. From 
 the days of Abel and Noah till the present hour, the friends of truth 
 have been hcrrtiral and controversial. But what has the B.ijjlist ban- 
 ner to do with ihc present points at issue ? Is the gentleman so hard 
 f reused as to form such alliances, to deliver himself or cause from ruin ? 
 trust he will either keep, or be kept to the rjuestion in drhale, and 
 leave Protestants to settle their own controversies. — [Time ex- 
 pired.]
 
 70 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 Bishop Torcell rises— 
 
 I thought we should be placed under considerable obligations to my 
 friend, for putting his finger upon the historic page that records the 
 day and date of the apostacy of the Roman Catholic church from the 
 true and holy Apostolic church, with so much precision. But now we 
 are adjourned back nearly 1000 years, and yet nothing more definite 
 than a " some time about tlie year 250 !" Some time about ! He 
 does not tell us whether it was in one year, or another, that the church 
 began to be corrupt. It was some time about, and so on. About this 
 time, it seems, the Novatians separated from the church — well, Paul 
 foresaw that such events would occur in the church's history — he 
 foresaw that " ravenous wolves would enter the fold ;" that dissensions 
 would exist, at all successive periods, to the end of time— that every 
 day new heretics would start up, who would deny the truth, introduce 
 false doctrine, and trouble the people of God. The Novatians were 
 one of these sects — and what did they teach 1 Why the most revolt- 
 ing and horrible doctrines ; among others, the doctrine that a convert 
 to Christianity, who, in times of peril and temptation, nay even when 
 compelled by physical force, should forsake his creed, could never be 
 restored, no matter how sincerely penitent. Who that feels his frailty 
 and knows that his heart in an evil hour might stray from duty, does 
 not revolt at such a doctrine, that for one offence would cut him off 
 forever ! God dealt not so with Adam, nor Christ with Peter, when 
 at the voice of a woman, and in an evil hour, even his strong heart 
 failed him. He admitted him to mercy, received him back to his 
 bosom, and made him the rock of his church. 
 
 But if all heretics are right, and this among the number — if the 
 church was wrong in separating herself from these men — if it is her 
 duty to say to the upholder of false doctrine " all hail," you are as 
 free from error, as incorrupt and immaculate, as we are, come partake 
 with us, we are of one communion; the rule should, according to the 
 gentleman's logic, work both ways, and Rome has as good a right as 
 anyother to be called the church of Christ. On the other hand, if the 
 Novatians were right, as he says they were, in excluding others, the 
 church was right in excluding them. The speech of heretics, St. Paul 
 tells us, 2d Tim. ii. 17, spreadeth like a cancer; he elsewhere says, 
 that evil communication corrupts good manners ; and the Pagans were 
 not insensible to the wisdom of the distich — 
 
 "Priiicipiis ot)sta ; sero medicina paratur 
 "Cum maid per lon^as iiivaluere moras." 
 
 My friend must have forgotten his argument of this morning, when 
 he said that the church of the living God should include none but the 
 pure and holy. If this be true, we must all give it up ; for who is holy ? 
 Which of us can lay his hand upon his heart and say I am without 
 sinl No, we are only holy in acknowledging our sinfulness and guilt 
 in the sight of God, with humility and prayer. " If we say we have 
 no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us! If we say 
 we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. If 
 we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to 
 clear us from all iniquity." St. John, Ep. If such be the gentleman's re- 
 quisitions, there can be no church of Christ in this erring world. There 
 is none pure from defilement, says Job, and all are included as the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 71 
 
 objects of divine displeasure, from which only the blood of Christ, 
 with faith, repentance and good works, can save us. If the gentleman 
 insists on applying a test which would require absolute perfection to 
 enable us to endure it, there is no such holiness, that I am aware of, 
 exhibited in this probationary state. My friend may feel a proud con- 
 sciousness that he is a happy instance of its existence, but for my part, 
 I cannot, I should not think it safe to lay the flattering unction to my 
 soul. I would advise no man to do so, while the great St. Paul com- 
 mands us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling; and tells 
 us, he chastised his own body, lest while he preached to others he 
 himself " should become a reprobate," 1st. Cor. ix. 27. It is our duty 
 to acknowledge that we are frail and sinful mortals even like the rest 
 of men. Establish a contrary rule, and pride digs one abyss after 
 another beneath our feet, and there will not be left one virtuous feeling, 
 one sound principle left upon which we can take our stand to make a 
 last appeal to heaven for mercy ! When Christ empowered the church 
 to throw her nets into the sea of human life, as the apostles did into 
 the lake, she gathered into it fishes, both good and bad ; when the nets 
 are hauled ashore, the good fish will be selected and the bad thrown 
 back into the sea. So will it be at the end of the world. The angels 
 of God will come forth and select the elect from the reprobate — they 
 will gather the wheat into the garner, but the tares they will burn 
 with unquenchable fire. The Catholic church with a consciousness of 
 man's true condition in this life, and a liberality which does her honor, 
 and which, all agree, ought to belong to the fold of Christ, permits all to 
 join in her religious festivals and exterior communion who profess the 
 same faith, and are willing to submit to her decisions as her children. 
 
 But mark the distinction between the body and the soul of the church, 
 all who profess the true faith, assist at the same religious exercises 
 and obey the same pastors, belong to the body of the church and are 
 therefore numbered among her children ; but to faith and exterior com- 
 munion of which alone man can take cognizance, must be added hope and 
 love and grace with God, that we may belong to the soul of the ciiurch. 
 Of the latter the church does not undertake to decide. This she leaves 
 to CJod who alone can see the heart. She, herself, judges not the in- 
 scrutable thinj/s of the s[)irit of a man, but contents herself with know- 
 ing and teaching that nothing can escape the piercing and all-seeing 
 eye of God, who will render to every man according to his works, on 
 that day when the hope of the hypocrite shall perish. Hence, as long 
 as one of her members disqualifies not himself for the comniniiion of 
 the faillifiil by flagrant impiety, notorious depravity, or scandalous 
 excess, she rejects iiim not; but like that charity of which St. Paul 
 speaks, let Cor. xiii. "is patient, is kind, thinketh no evil, rejoiceth 
 not in iniquity, but rrjoiceth with the truth, bclievelh all things, hopeth 
 all things, endurcth all things, with modesty admonihbing men, if per- 
 adventurc God may give them repentance." 
 
 The gentleman quoted from VVaddiiiglon the, history of the Nova- 
 tiang. He says, they continued, how long I know not, but till ! 
 (forget not the word,) till they merged in the sect of Donatists. The 
 expressive word lill is enough. There is nosueh fatal and teriuinnling 
 word in Catholic history. The (Catholic church is universal, and not 
 sectarian. Jt is perjielual in duration, an<i is not mir^eil as one wave 
 of error is merged in or obliterated by another. The gentleman asserts.
 
 72 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 that the Donatists did not differ from the Novatians. This is incor- 
 rect. The Donatists fell from schism into errors which the No- 
 vatians had never adopted. They employed the ^^ savage Circuni- 
 cellions,'''' as the protestant historian Waddinprton calls them, to 
 pillage churches, murder Catholics, and perpetrate other acts of 
 barbarity unheard of amonof the meek followers of Jesus Christ. 
 What, too, will my friend say to the uncontrollable propensity to sui- 
 cide, which they were accused of encouraging and indulging with 
 dreadful frequency? Not so the true church — she comes lik" Jesus 
 Christ to call sinners to repentance, and heal the contrite of heart- 
 she employs his own inviting, and attractive, accents of pity and 
 compassion: — "Come to me all you that labor and are heavy bur- 
 dened, and /will refresh you, not drive you to despair, to acts of self 
 destruction; and you shall find rest for your souls." Matthew xi. 28. 
 A hard heart will fare badly in the end, says the scripture, and conse- 
 quently every feeling of justice and humanity revolts at the idea that 
 the Novatians could have been animated by the meek spirit of Jesus 
 Christ, when they condemned to eternal exclusion from the church for 
 a single, and that, frequently, a compulsory fault, as when an individ- 
 ual was condemned by brute force to offer incense to the idols, or the 
 Donatists, who revolted against the authority of the African bishops, 
 and ravaged the countries where they prevailed with a lawless soldiery. 
 Is this the meek church of him who came to preach deliverance to 
 captives'? Must we palliate these and a hundred similar excesses, to 
 criminate a church which would, if her mild counsels were obeyed, have 
 averted these evils from mankind ? Is it candid, is it just, to blame her 
 without cause and to withhold praise where it is due? The Roman 
 Catholic church has never given the example of such cruelty. She 
 on the contrary admits all sinners to repentance ; she counts as belong- 
 to her communion, all the children baptized in Protestant communions 
 who die before they are capable of committing mortal sin, or who living 
 in invincible ignorance that they have been bred up in error, keep 
 the commandments of God, and love him, as far as their knowledge of 
 his divine nature will permit. All these belong to the soul of the 
 church; and are consequently among the most precious of her fold. 
 Even among the enlightened Indians if any there be that keep inviola- 
 bly the natural law and serve their Creator according to the best lights 
 which they possess, these she enrolls among her children, and teaches 
 us to consider them as objects of God's special mercy, whom he will 
 not, according to St. Thomas Aquinas, fail to illustrate with the light 
 of divine truth. For this purpose the resources of his wisdom, are 
 like that wisdom, infinite. Thus while the Catholic church watches 
 •with tne most scrupulous fidelity over the purity of faith, in her 
 has the beautiful saying of the psalmist been fulfilled, " Mercy and 
 truth have met one another, justice and peace have kissed." Psi 
 Ixxxiv. 11. 
 
 By what ingenuity can the gentleman flatter himself he will estab- 
 lish the claims of the discordant and evanescent sects of these early 
 ages to the title of Catholics. Sisyphus-like, these sects which he is 
 laboring so hard, so vainly, to roll up to the summit of that "moun- 
 tain placed upon the top of mountains," spoken of by Is. ii. 2, 
 and which is the aptest figure of the Catholic church, to which all na- 
 tions flow, will fall upon him and crush him. He can never prove
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 73 
 
 Aem Catholic in iime, in place, or in doctrine. The Novations did 
 not slip into the Donatists, nor the Donatists into the Paulicians ; there 
 was no common bond of union, no identity of doctrine, among these 
 heterogeneous sects. As it is the same sun which took its station in 
 the heavens at the creation that now shines over us, so it is the same 
 religion that was taught eighteen hundred years ago by Jesus Christ, 
 that irradiates us at this very day with the light of truth ; and not more 
 difficult would it be to tount all the vapors, mists and clouds, that 
 passed athwart the bright luminary of day since he first gladdened the 
 universe with his beams, than to enumerate the numberless sects that 
 have cast their shadows on the light of Catholic holiness, and purity, 
 and truth, since the origin of Christianity. They have passed, or are 
 fast passing away for ever, while she lasts on, and will last till the end 
 of time. '"l have seen the wicked," says the Psalmist, xxxvi. 35, 
 " highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon. And I 
 passed, and lo! he was not, and his place was not to be found." This 
 is a glorious indication of the stability of the Catholic church — of the 
 truth of the power that sustains her. And as she signalized her 
 triumph over all the false gods of Paganism, by establishing the 
 church of All Saints, and of the God who made them saints, on the 
 ruins of the greatest of idolatrous temples, so does she signalize her 
 triumph over all sects and heresies, falsely professing to be christian, 
 by the august pontiff who speaks to the eternal city and the Catholic 
 world. From the inspiration of scripture, and of splendid facts, I pass 
 to the inspiration of poetry, I care not whose, and close Ihe words of 
 tny argument in the words of Byron : 
 
 "But thou of temples old. or altars new, 
 Standest alone — with nothing like to thee — 
 Worthiest of God, the holy and the true! 
 Since Zion's desolation, when that He 
 Forsook his former city, what coultl be 
 or earthly structures in his honor pil'd 
 Of a sublinier aspect '? Majesty, 
 Power, glory, strength, ancf biimtv, all are aisl'd. 
 In this eternal ark of worship undetird." 
 
 « » « 
 
 My friend has dwelt eloquently upon riots in the church in particu- 
 lar seasons of excitement. But shall a society forfeit all claims to 
 regard, because, in seasons of high excitement, differences of opinion 
 
 Iroceed to violence? or a few bad people come to blows'? It has 
 appencd, and rnay happen among ail denominations, even the most 
 peaceful sects, and every body of men ; (instances were here specified.) 
 A riot may take place at an election of president, and blood be shed ; 
 but does this affect the title of chief magistrate of this union? Is he 
 to lose his offic-f; because blows were struck during the election? and 
 if the pope could not always be elected peaceably, by reason of the 
 disturbances created by men, was the succession to cease, and was 
 there never to be a pope again, or a bishop, or any other pastor in the 
 church ? was Christ not God bcf-ause Peter, the servant Malchus, shed 
 blood for him? See the terrible effects of my friend's bad reasoning. 
 The deist has availed himself of it, and denied the God of the Old 
 Testament, because exterminating wars, as we there read, were waged 
 «t his command. We must make allowances for the passions and 
 O 10
 
 74 DEllATK ON rilH 
 
 weaknesses of liumaii niilure; but ihe aim of religion is to corfect< to 
 heal, if she cannot entirely remove them. W'he,n the pope was elected, 
 in tlw case alluded to, he restored order. As Cliri«t said to Pettr, so 
 said he to the mob excited by Novatian, " Put up atjain thy sword 
 into its place, for all that take the sword shall perish with live sword." 
 Matthew xxvi. 52. 
 
 The gentleman asked me to tell him in what objectionable sense the 
 bishop of Constantinople claimed the title of Universal Fiither. It 
 was in a sense, never used before; he had no title to it; he assumed 
 too much in claiminnr it. Again, it was he who pretended that no 
 sacrament could be administered but by his authority. The Catholic 
 church teaches that, however illicitli/ he may exercise it, no authority 
 on earth can take even from a degraded priest ihe power of consecrat- 
 ing. Schismalical bishops, when duly ordained themselves, could 
 ordain bishops, priests and inferior clergy. We ad'roit the baptism 
 of IMethodists and Baptists by aspersion, or immersion, as I have 
 already explained; and even the orders of the English Episcopal 
 church are contested, on the ground of the very serious doubt whethcT 
 the first of their bishops was, himself, ccvnsecra-tied by a bishop, or 
 if so, by a valid formulary. 
 
 My friend was not at all accurate m stating the irumber of bishops 
 present at some of the first councils. There were more present at 
 them, as I can easily shew, than he has stated. H-e draws a parallel 
 between the council of Nice and the house of representatives. I do 
 not understand the force of his analogy. If that council belonged ex- 
 clusively to the Greeks, why did they permit a Latin to preside 1 But 
 it was to shew the world that they admitted the authority of Rome 
 that Osius, the pope's legate, presided — and without his signature, 
 and the pope's approbation, their acts would have had no force as rules 
 of Catholic faith. What analogy is there between Henry Clay snd 
 Osius'? Did they stand in the same relation to their respective assem- 
 blies ■? Did they ever dream that they would be placed in juxta posi- 
 tion ? If the speaker of the house, or the president of the senate, were 
 to object to the passing of a law, would his veto avail anything? 
 would not the majority ruleT 
 
 My friend said, first, that Catholic was a new term ; and next, when 
 he found it impossible to prove that, insisted it was not used to designate 
 the church, by inspired writers. I have abundantly disproved both 
 of these assertions. The apostles were inspired writers, and it dates 
 from their time ; and they alone, according to the rule of St. Augustin, 
 had the right to institute it. Besides, what are all the glorious pro- 
 phesies of the universal diffusion of the church by Isaiah, &c. &c. but 
 the evidence that it should be what its name imports 1 In fact, it was 
 Catholic before all the New Testament was completed. And the 
 apostles, aware of the doubts that error would originate on the autho- 
 rity of the church, gave a sure and unerring guide to every sincere be- 
 liever, teaching him to say, next after the profession of his belief in God 
 himself — not, I believe in the bible — it is not once mentioned — not in 
 any sect — there were none heard of at that time — ^but " I believe in the 
 holy Catholic church." — [Time expired.]
 
 RO>tAN CATHOLIC BELIOION. 75 
 
 Three o'clock, P. M. 
 Mr. Camtbeix rises — 
 
 I may have mistaken in ascribing to the bishop of Rome what waa 
 done by the bishop of Constantinople, in reference to the personal 
 consecration of the successor of Mauritius ; but this does not aflect 
 the justice of my remark, or invalidate my reasoning : and I think 
 my worthy friend apprehends this, inasmuch as the consecration was 
 approved and sustained by Gregory. I read those documents at the 
 same time, and may have confounded them, but we shall hear them 
 again and see how much is either gained or lost by the admission. 
 
 " As a subject and a christian, it was t!ie duty of Gregory to acquiesce in the 
 establislied government, but the joyl'iil applause with which he salutes the for- 
 tune of the assassin, has sullied with iiulerMe disgrace the cliaracler of the 
 saint. The successor of the apositlcs might have inculcated with decent firm- 
 ness the guilt of blood, and the necessity of repentance : he is content to cele- 
 brate the deliverance of tlie people and the fall of the oppressor; to rejoice that 
 the piety and benignity of Pnocas have been raised by providence to the impe- 
 rial throne; to pray that his hands may be strengthened against all his onemifs; 
 and to express a wish, perhaps a prophecy, that, after a long and triumphant 
 reign, he may be transferred from a temporal to an everlasting kingdom."* — 
 Gibbon Hist. Dec. and Fall Rom. Emp. vol. viii. ;). 211. 
 
 Now this, if I mistake not, amounts in substance to my affirmation. 
 Gregory approved the usur])ation, and sanctioned the induction into 
 office of a man who had wrested tlic throne from the legitimate master, 
 and who was both a munierer and a usurper. 
 
 I could wish that my oj)ponent would select some of the great points 
 of my argument in his replies, and form an issue with me. Were this 
 piece of history blotted out of existence, what loss to the main argu- 
 ment 1 These are merely incidental and minor matters — illustrations 
 rather than proofs, and leave the great facts as they were. I must, 
 however, briefly glance at some other little things before I resume my 
 argument. 
 
 The gentleman's next remark was, " that Joshua was the successor 
 of Moses." True it is, that every man is in one sense sncreseor to 
 some one who preceded liiin. Uut Moses was, for a time, captain, 
 prophet, priest, and king of Jeshurun. Joshua, however, merely com- 
 manded the people, and divided the land of Canaan among tliem. This 
 did not Moses: Moses accomplished all that he was appointed to do. 
 He needed no successor in the peculiar work assigned him. They 
 were both extraordinary offices. Moses was a law-giver, and Joshua 
 a savior. The law was given to the people by Moses: Joshua gave 
 them an inheritance. Neither of them, in the nature of things, could 
 have a successor in the same office, for its duties wcri; all di.sciiargcd. 
 
 I was pleased tolienrlhe genlh'innn admit all tiiat I said conccriiing 
 the Novatians. 'I'hey had one fault wiiich v,e bolli allow — lliey were 
 too severe jn one branch of discipline — they could never receive those 
 who had grievously fallen — no repentance would obtain re-admission 
 if tiie penitent had very flagrantly sinned. The occa.sion was this: 
 
 • Gre^or. 1. x'l. rpi«t. 38, indict, vi. Benignilatcm vestKn pictatis ad impu- 
 rialc fnntl^um pervenisnc gnudemus. I/rtcntur culi c-t exultet terra, et do 
 veitrin benignis acliliui univem.'e reipublicu? popiiluR nunc usque vein nicnter 
 afllictun hiliircurot, <fcc. This bane (lattery, the topic of I'rotestunt invective, ii 
 junlly ceniurrd by the philoiophcr Hayle, (Diclionnairc t'ritique, Gregoire 1. 
 Not. H. torn. ii. p. .''>07, !i9H.) Cardiual Barroniui juitiCci the pope at the ex- 
 oense of the I'ullen rniperor.
 
 78 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 In the interim of the Pa^an persecutions, many new converts were 
 added to the churches. 5y and by, when the storm of persecution 
 arose, they withdrew and fell away : but when a calm ensued, they 
 sought to be restored to the church. Tlie Novatians opposed their 
 restoration ; the other party contended for it. The Puritans got vexed 
 with the frequent indulgences and backslidings of such professors; 
 and this occasioned that extreme on their part, which drew down upon 
 them many anathemas from the other party. They had other objec- 
 tions besides this against the opposing party; but this was sufficient 
 for a division. 
 
 I was sorry to hear the gentleman excusing the church for embrac- 
 ing in its bosom men of every sort of wickedness. He spoke with 
 great feeling and eloquence upon the subject of calling ourselves holy, 
 &c. We admit that there is no man free from all pollution, whose- 
 heart is always and only pure. But what has this to do with the 
 openly wicked and profane — rcprohates of the deepest dye 1 Ought 
 the church to open her doors as wide as the human race, and admit 
 every human being without discrimination'? Is there no medium? 
 He quoted the parable of the tares and wheat. It is true, the Savior 
 commanded to let the tares and wheat grow together till harvest : but 
 the gentleman assumed that it was spoken of the diurch. I admit the 
 doctrine, as applied to the world. " The Jield is the world,'''' not the 
 church, said the Savior. Does this excuse ns for tolerating reprobates 
 in the bosom of the church? "You are not of this world," says the 
 Savior to his disciples — " My kingdom is not of this world," " Come 
 out from among them, and separate yourselves, and I will receive you, 
 says the Almighty Father. What concord has Christ with Belial, or 
 he that believeth with an iniidelT" 
 
 As to the"continuation of the Novatians iill the Donatists, and the 
 Donatists iill the Paulicians," &c. my friend emphasizes the word /?'//, 
 as if those witnesses for Christ had died away when some new sect 
 arose. The fact is, that when some great leader arose, his name was 
 imposed upon all that associated with him; and different leaders, in 
 various parts of the world, moved great masses of professors, who 
 were essentially the same people; and when they became acquainted 
 with each other, they coalesced under one great profession, variously 
 nicknamed by the opposite party. So are the Lutherans, Calvinists, 
 Wesleyans, Cameronians, &c. of ojir own time. 
 
 Sorry was I to hear my liberal antagonist compare the Protestant 
 sects to the psalmist's description of a prosperous wicked man — ^'I 
 saw," says he, "the wicked great in power, spread himself like a 
 green bay tree: he passed away; yea, he was not. . I sought him, and 
 he could not be found." I do not know how his Episcopalian friends 
 ■will thank him for this compliment. I hav^ no doubt in this he was 
 sincere, for the Romanists often bewailed the long life of Elizabeth, 
 because, under her reign, a new race of Protestants was born and edu- 
 cated, and alienated from the Roman hierarchy, who were proof against 
 all the machinations of Rome. They hoped that the Protestant Epis- 
 copalians would, like the green bay tree of David, (emblem of the 
 prosperous wicked,) have withered away, and been reabsorbed by the 
 mother church ; but for once the application failed, and the wicked 
 Protestants have for three centuries grown and increased, in de- 
 spite of all the policy and effort of Rome, and are now in expectation
 
 E0:iL4.X CATHOLIC KELIGION. 77 
 
 of seeing the same 37th psalm verified in the fates of Roman Catho- 
 licism. 
 
 Every sect and individual, as I said before, is passive in re- 
 ceiving a name. Sectarian names are generally given in the way of 
 reproach ; thus the disciples were first called christians at Antioch, 
 most probably in derision ; yet it was a very proper name. Call us 
 what you please, however, it does not change nature or race. The 
 disciples of Christ are the same race, call them Christians, Nazarenes, 
 Galileans, Novatians, Donatists, Paulicians, Waldenses, Albigenses, 
 Protestants, or what you please. A variety of designation affects not 
 the fact which we allege ; we can find an unbroken series of Protes- 
 tants — a regular succession of those who protested against the corrup- 
 tions of the Roman church, and endeavored to hold fast the faith once 
 delivered to the saints, from the first schism in the year 250, A. D. to 
 the present day ; and you may apply to them what description or de- 
 signation you please. 
 
 The gentleman spoke of these sects as waves passing by while the 
 true church remained like a wall, immoveable and unchangeable. 
 History refuses him her suffrage in this assumption : for it deposes 
 that she has changed, in whole, or in part, her tenets and her disci- 
 pline, no less than eighteen times in all — that is, once, at least for 
 every general council. She is the mutable immutable church, con- 
 tending for uniformity in faith and variety of discipline. 
 
 My opponent has quoted the apostles' creed. Du Pin, and a learn- 
 ed host prove that the apostles never wrote it. The doctrine contained 
 in it, I admit is apostolic. And it is worthy of remark that like all 
 old creeds, it states /ac/s ,- whereas modern creeds are human exposi- 
 tions of doctrines. For my own part, I can adopt every article of that 
 creed, ex animo ,• except, perhaps, I would change one expression, and 
 say that ' I believe in a Catholic churcii.' I believe that there does 
 exist such a thing as a truly Catholic church of Christ. But as for 
 human creeds, I make no such platforms a bond of union among 
 christians. We, like the Romanists, differ about church discipline 
 among ourselves : but all the Protestant world believes this ' apostles' 
 creed,' as it is called ; and are as uniform in this faith as the " mother 
 church" herself. 
 
 I was sorry to hear the election of the pope, the pretended vicar of 
 Christ, as respects riots, and blows, and carnage, compared to that of 
 the president of the United States, and to have the excesses com- 
 plained of in Rome, excused on the (rround, that sometimes we have 
 mobs, and perliaps a flight on a presidential election. Is the jiresiden- 
 tial chair of sudi dignity and sanctity as that of tiie vicar of Christi ! 
 And is a riot or murder no more incongruous in the one case than in 
 the other 1 We opine, that he wiio holds that exalted station should 
 come into it without blood. And yet in all these political elections, 
 since the Protestant rcforiaatioii, llioro is nothing to e(|nal half the up- 
 roar, and tumult, and murder, that happened in filling tiie ciiair of St. 
 Peter, at the conflict between Damasus and Ursinus, not to mention a 
 second, ('an it be compared to the election of the prcsidcnU so as to 
 transfer to the one the language which is pcrliucnt to the oilier 1 As, 
 for example, " Take heed to the flock over which the Holy Si-iiut has 
 placed you!" 
 
 The gentleman is glad that his church is to liberal as to authorize 
 o 2
 
 78 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 every sort of baptism, even that performed by heretics, provided only 
 the proper name be pronounced ! This is certainly a modern excess 
 of liberality. If I am rightly informed, his predecessor, in this very 
 charge, was not so liberal as he — in one case, at least, which occurred 
 at Portsmouth in this state. There were two members of the Episco- 
 pal church," one of the parties the son of an Episcopalian minister, de- 
 sirous of entering into matrimony. Bishop Fenwick desired to know 
 of what party they were, and on learning that they were Episcopalians, 
 refused to marry them, unless previously baptized by himself. There 
 may be many other instances of liie same sort, certainly, in former 
 times there were many, and so far as they prove that the church is not 
 immutable, are hopeful indications of the possibility of reform. But 
 this is not the question before us. We are not discussing baptism, or 
 the eucharist, or any of the " seven sacraments," or any ordinance of 
 the church. Will the gentleman inform us whether his church regards 
 the administration of the eucharist, or any other of her seven sacra- 
 ments valid, unless at the hand of those whom she authorizes to min- 
 nister them. Let him not wave the question by a reference to a prac- 
 tice which he knows can be explained on other principles. 
 
 I shall not now stop to dispute about Sylvester and the council of 
 Nice : but shall resume my general argument where 1 left off. 
 
 All agree that if primacy or supremacy reside in the church at all, 
 it must reside in some person. If Jesus Christ intended to make Peter 
 the prince of apostles, the vicar of Christ; the title will prove it clear- 
 ly. If this headship, on the other hand, was not given to Peter; none 
 can derive it from him by succession. Was Peter invested with this 
 authority 1 If not, none can pretend to it as his successors. Tho 
 whole question rests on this. My learned opponent cannot show that 
 Peter ever had such an office. He affirms, indeed, that Peter was su- 
 perior to the rest of the apostles : but does he show in what respect ? 
 How many kinds of superiority might there have been in his case 1 I 
 will answer for him and say that there are, at least,/our. 1st. of age, 
 2nd. of talents, 3d. of character, and 4th. of office. These are clearly 
 marked in holy writ, and fixed in society. Admit then that Peter is 
 head of the list; can he decide which of these four has placed him 
 first. The bishop asserts that he was first in office. But how can he 
 take this for granted, when there are three other ways in which Peter 
 might be at the head 1 Is this the reasoning that logic or Catholicism 
 sanctions or requires 1 
 
 I would request the gentleman to tell us, how he knows which of 
 these four sorts of superiority to ascribe to Peter ! He assumes one, 
 and is bold in asserting the Catholic doctrine of a supreme head of the 
 church on this assumption. Peter may have been the oldest, or the 
 first called of all the apostles : or his character or talents may have 
 given him a decided superiority ; why then assume one, to the exclu- 
 sion of the others. 'J'he greatest empires have been built on the most 
 bold assumptions. But never was there a more baseless monarchy in 
 the annals of time than that of papal Rome. I wish my opponent 
 would for once assume, or take up some one of these grand points, on 
 which his church rests, and not waste his time in fighting about sha- 
 dows or peccadillos. Let him come at once to the great principles of 
 the debate. I challenge him to show cause, why he assumes for Peter 
 a supremacy of office, rather than of age, of talent, or of character ;
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RKLIUION. 79 
 
 any one of which is much more feasible and probable than that which 
 he has begged. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 BlStiop PtfRCELL ilses — 
 
 1 was far from charging Mr. C. with a Wilful dereliction of the truth, 
 when he stated, what he now confesses to be untrue, that Gregory 
 crowned Phocas. The imputed motive was very base, but he now 
 sees that it was not the pope's. I attribute this extraordinary mis- 
 take, on the part of my friend, to the fact of his having been too apt 
 to believe that every thing written against Catholics must be true, and 
 to his memory's not having been lately refreshed in his early readings. 
 But it is due to the public that he should apologize for having, 
 through want of care on a matter of so much importance, fallen into 
 so very serious a mistake in what was calculated so deeply to injure 
 the truth. He should first have inquired whether all he said was 
 true. I repeat, then, that Gregory did not crown Phocas at all, much 
 less for the express purpose of eliciting from the gratitude of the sover- 
 eign an acknowledgment of his " papal supremacy" for this recognition 
 was as old as Christianity. Order was restored in Constantinople. He 
 then sent him words of compliment on his accession. It is contrary to 
 the rules of sound argument to presume that Gregory approved of the 
 circumstances which led to the change of dynasty. Napoleon grasped 
 the Iron crown of Italy, from the altar and put it on his brow, for he 
 acknowledged no Donor thereof but his sword. So would Phocas, 
 very probably have done with the crown of C, whatever Gre- 
 gory might have thought of the act. Moreover, Phocas did not 
 hurl Mauritius from the throne. Mauritius abdicated, and the people, 
 not the bishop of C. P. made Phocas king, in the place of Mauritius, 
 amiser, and a tyrant ; and Gregory rejoiced, not at the disturbances but 
 at the restoration of order. My friend now treats these matters as 
 light, and incidental. It was he himself wiio made then principals, 
 by the manner in which he introduced them. Me was arguing a knotty 
 point, tlie manrifr in which Uom(> came to " assume" her high pre- 
 rogative over the cliurcli. The plain, scriptural truth, that she came 
 to it by divine appointment was before his eyes, but he would not see 
 it. Ih It to be wondered at tliat he saw in history what was not there ! 
 I will say no more on the subject of Joshua. Kusebius confirms, p. 4G, 
 what I have said. The object of the ministry of the old or of the new 
 law, of the corning of ('hrist, of the shedding of his blood, and all the in- 
 stitutions of his religion, was not the setting up of a tabernacle in the wil- 
 derness, or the crossing of the .Jordan, or the surveying of a piece of 
 land and dividing it among a few tribes, but the salvation of man- 
 kind, without any exception, or distinction of age, or clime; and 
 this (freat work of regeneration and redeinjition is just as important 
 now, and will continue so while there arc iMMonxAi, souls to he en- 
 lightened and saved, as it was in the days of iIk; apostles. Their 
 office must remain, and their successors are charged with it. The 
 bishops and their assistant brethren watch over the safety of the fold, 
 and the soverri[rn pontiff sees that they ;ui(l tlicir flocks prrsevcre in 
 ufiity. He watches over all. 
 
 Mr. ('. persists in saying that the NovaliauK, Donatists, Paulicians 
 &c. &c. agreed in doctrine, and may be considered as the Catholic
 
 80 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 church. I have already refuted this theory, but here is Protestant tea* 
 timony again to destroy it, and I hope we shall not waste any more 
 time on it, for it is too absurd. " No heretic," says Waddington, 
 p. 154, " was as likely as the Donatist to lay claim to the name Ca- 
 tholic ; yet even a Donatist, while he maintained that the true spirit 
 and purity were alone perpetuated in his own communion, would scarce- 
 ly have affirmed that that was bona fide the universal church, which 
 did not extend bcyotid the shores of Jlfrica, and ivhich had not the via- 
 jority even there^ Speaking of the sects in Dauphine and other errorists 
 condemned at Arras in 1025, the same author says, (p. 554) "It is 
 proper to mention what these opinions really were, which were con- 
 demned at Arras, lest it should be supposed that they were at variance 
 only with the Roman Catholic church, and strictly in accordance with 
 apostolic truth." " It was asserted that the sacrament of baptism 
 was useless and of no efficacy to salvation, (what does Mr. C. think 
 of this 1) that the sacrament of the Lord's supper was equally unne- 
 cessary. — It appears that the objections of the heretics on this point 
 went beyond the mere denial of the change of substance — that the 
 sacred orders of the ministry were not of divine institution — that 
 penance was altogether inefficacious — that marriage in general was 
 contrary to the evangelical and apostolical laws — that saint-worship is 
 to be confined to the apostles and martyrs, &c. &c. so mixed and various 
 is the substance of those opinions to which learned writers on this 
 subject appeal with so much satisfaction." Again, " they were all taint- 
 ed more or less deeply by the poison of Manichaesism : and since it is 
 our object to establish a connexion, with the primitive church, we shall 
 scarcely attain it through those whose fundamental principle was un- 
 equivocally rejected by that church, as irrational and impious." 555. 
 Mosheim says, 1st vol. p. 328, "Among the sects that troubled 
 the Latin church, this century, (the 12th) the principal place is due to 
 the Cathari, or Catharists, whom we have had already occasion to 
 mention. This numerous faction, leaving their first residence, which 
 was in Bulgaria, spread themselves throughout almost all the European 
 provinces, where they occasioned much tumult and disorder. Their 
 religion resembled the doctrine of the Manicheans and Gnostics, on 
 which account they commonly received the denomination of the former, 
 though they differed in many respects from the genuine primitive 
 Manicheans. They all indeed, agreed in the following points of doc- 
 trine, viz. that matter was the source of all evil ; that the creator of 
 this WDrld was a being distinct from the supreme deity ; that Christ 
 was neither clothed with a real body, nor could be properly said to 
 have been born, or to have seen death ; that human bodies were the 
 production of the evil principle, and were extinguished without the 
 prospect of a new life. They treated with the utmost contempt all 
 the books of the Old Testament, but expressed a high degree of ven- 
 eration for the New." Speaking of the Waldenses, p. 332, Mosheim 
 says, " They committed the government of the cliurch to bishops, 
 presbyters and deacons, but they deemed it absolutely necessary that 
 all these orders should resemble exactly the apostles of the divine 
 Savior, and be like them illiterate, &c. &c. The laity were divided 
 into two classes, one of which contained the perfect and the other the 
 imperfect christians." Of another sect, the Pasaginians, Mosheim 
 says, p. 333, "They circumcised their followers, and held that the law 
 of Moses, in every thing but sacrifice, was obligatory upon Chris-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 81 
 
 tians.'''' What the same Protestant historian says of the brethren of 
 the free spirit is too horrid. It is the foulest of the many foul pages 
 he has stained with the history of sects, "They maintained that the 
 believer could not sin, let his conduct be ever so horrible and atro- 
 cious." The celebrated Ziska, not a Roman Catholic inquisitor, but 
 the austere general of the Hussites, another sect of Protestants, fall- 
 ing upon this miserable sect in 1421, "put some to the sword and 
 condemned the rest to the flames." Mosheim, 428. " A sect of fana- 
 tics called Caputiati, infested Moravia and Burgundy, the diocese of 
 Auxerre, and several other parts of France, in all which places they 
 excited much disturbance among the people. They declared publicly 
 that their purpose was, to level all distinctions, to abrogate magistra- 
 cy, to remove all subordination among mankind, and to restore that 
 primitive liberty, that natural equality, which were the inestimable 
 privileges of the first mortals." Mosheim, p. 333. Luther repeatedly 
 declared that he stood alone, that all antiquity was against him. Here 
 are startling facts and no less startling admissions by sound Protes- 
 tants. Will my friend insult this enlightened assembly by making up a 
 monster-church, a very chimera, of all these sects, and give modern 
 Protestants all the honors present and prospective of being the tail of 
 the beast? I would counsel him not to dream of doing so, and ihem 
 to look out for more reputable religious ancestors. 
 
 But the Roman Catholic church has changed at least in discipline. 
 Grant it. And what of that? Is it not the very nature of discipline that 
 it must be modified by times, places, peculiarities of nations and other 
 circumstances, in order to be adapted to the wants of man in all the 
 varieties of his being ] Truth is unsusceptible of change. Like God 
 it is always the same. But the form of the dress of the clergy, the color 
 of the wine to be used at mass, days of fasting and abstinence, and 
 of public meetings for prayer and certain unessential rites in the ad- 
 ministration of the sacramj'.nts, may be changed. The constitution of 
 the church should possess this clement of good government. She has 
 the power to make these changes, and she has made them as the wants 
 of her children seemed to require. But the doctrine is invariable. 
 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but, of it, not an iota shall change. 
 
 As to Ihe deaths oecasionnd iti the election of a pope, I ask agam, 
 what has that to do with tlic constitutionality of the office 1 The popo 
 did not shiy those people- According to the gentleman's theory, the 
 president of this union would have to answer for the blood, if any, 
 flpilled at his election. I am astonished that such arguments should 
 be repeated. I can say wilii certainty of my venerable ])redecessor 
 that he would not have pursued tlu^ course, he did, if the story ho 
 true, if he had had reasou to believe the individuals had never been 
 baptized — ami if any two or mop' young jjcople will ecMue to me, who 
 have bet-n rightly baptized in I'rotcstant (;omnuniions, 1 warrant them, 
 if there bi; no other obstiicles, they shall be quickly bound together in 
 the indissoluble bondH of matrimony. 
 
 I am perfectly willing to revert to the point of the supremacy of St. 
 Peter and the continuance of his high authority in his successors, for it 
 is a cardinal dortriiic It solves a tlioiisjuid lesser points of (lilhculty, 
 and I am happy to argue it ;iir;iin from the New 'Ceslanienl, from 
 church history, from reason. I have already quoted scri|)ture for tho 
 dogma of the supremacy of Peter — " upon this rock will I build my 
 church." My friend does not like to approach that rock,— He takes 
 
 11
 
 82 DEBATi: OX Tin: 
 
 care to keep shy of it. I also quoted " feed my Iambs, — feed my 
 sheep" — "To thee I will pivc tliekeys of the kinjrdom of lieaven," — 
 " Blessed art thou, Simon," — and " when thou art anointed confirm thy 
 brethren," &c. All these texts, and more, did I quote, and the gentle- 
 man has had my aulliority before him. I shall now strengthen my 
 quotation from the fathers, adducing overwhelming facts to prove that 
 Peter was bishop of Home and that the bishops of that see have ever 
 been regarded in the Catholic church as his successors. Many of my 
 hearers may suppose that this matter is buried in the night of time — 
 that history is either silent, or not sufficiently clear upon it. But 
 when they hear the s))lendid tostimonios I am going to adduce, they 
 will change their minds on this subject, and confess that, from time 
 immemorial, in the very earliest ages, the church was precisely the 
 same, in its faith, its sacraments, its hierarchy, its clergy, &c. &c. 
 that the Catholic church is at the present day. (Here bishop Purcell 
 held up the map of the succession of popes from the first, Peter him- 
 self, down to the present pontiff, Gregory XVI. ; the names of all the 
 most eminent men in the church ; the date of the establishment of the 
 gospel in the various countries of the world, the origin and authors of 
 the various heresies and schisms, their condemnation by general coun- 
 cils, or synods, &c. &c.) let any other exhibit such an array ! 
 
 Christ Jesus said to his disciples " go, teach all nations." They 
 went ! they preached every where, and the world believed ! before 
 their death they ordained others whose names are here faithfully re- 
 corded. Hero is the ecclesiastical history of Eusebius, and according 
 to the pun upon his name (you see by us) you will see by him what 
 a flood of light irradiates this subject. Eusebius wrote in the 4th 
 century, and to remove all suspicion I bring before you the translation 
 of his history by a Protestant minister, C. F. Cruse, A. M. Assistant 
 Professor of the university of Pennsylvania, 2d. edition, revised and 
 corrected by the author. [The reading was interrupted by the half 
 hour's expiring.*] 
 
 Four o^cIock, P. M. 
 Mr. Cami'bici.l rises — 
 
 Is the original Greek of Irenaeus extant ? [The bishop intimates, 
 ' iVb.'] Of what authority, then, is the version from which he reads 1 
 I have never read in Irenaeus nor seen quoted from him a warrant for 
 the assumption that Peter was ever bishop of Rome ? But of this 
 again^ 
 
 After raising such a dust as the gentleman has about Phocas and 
 Gregory, it has become necessary for me to re-stale my argument. 
 
 Gregory the great wrote to ^lauritius, requesting him to induce 
 John, bishop of Constantinople, to give up his claim to the title of 
 universal father. Mauritius would not do it. Gregory the great, is 
 supposed by all antiquity to have harbored a grudge, or bad feeling 
 towards Mauritius, because of this; and therefore his exultation at 
 his death, and his easy recognition of the pretensions of his murderer, 
 which acquiescence, on his part, secured the compliance of Phocas 
 with the wishes of Gregory, and secured to his successors the title of 
 universal patriarch, or pope — 
 
 [Bishop Purcell here observed, that Phocas was not the murderer 
 of Mauritius.] 
 
 * The extract referred to will be found in a subsequent speech.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 83 
 
 Very well, I have the authority of Gibbon for my assertion — not 
 for saying that he killed him by his own hands : but by his authority, 
 as he lays to Phocas the blood of Mauritius and his seven children, 
 on the principle, qui facit per alterum, facit per se. He does himself 
 what he does by an other. The said Phocas did afterwards, Barronius 
 being a faithful witness, give the title of universal bishop to Boniface, 
 Gregory's successor, and who can infer any thing else from all the 
 circumstances, than I have done ? ! 
 
 1 thought the gentleman was about to produce authority to prove 
 that Sylvester did call the council of Nice. This, I again assert he 
 cannot do. If he think he can, let him attempt it, and we will show 
 he cannot. We, however, do assert on the authority of Eusebius, and 
 all ancient history, that Constantino the great did call the council of 
 Nice ; and we affirm on equal authority, that the pope's legate did not 
 preside in that council. Whether Hosios did is problematical. It is 
 inferred from the fact of his being present : but there is no historic 
 authority for it. But all this is very subordinate and of little value. 
 The whole question rests upon the itujuiry, TF/tat office had Peter? 
 What was his ecclesiastical power and patronage 1 Was Peter tlie 
 prince of the apostles? Was he made the vicar of Christ ? Ay, this 
 is the question ! It requires explicit — nay, positive scripture authori- 
 ty — whei% is it ] 
 
 The gentleman offers several passages to this point. I shall exa- 
 mine the prominent texts, and begin with the 16th chapter of Mat- 
 thew. — I read from Griesbach's Greek Testament. In this chapter, 
 Christ asks his disciples the question, "Who do men say tliat I ami" 
 and afterwards asks them, " But who say ye that I am ?" and Peter 
 answered : "Thou art tlio Christ, the Son of the living God ;" "and 
 Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed are you, Simon Barjona, 
 for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father, who 
 is in heaven : and I say also to you, that you are Peter, and upon this 
 rock I will build my congregation and the gates of hades sliall not 
 prevail against it." Matth. xvi. 13 — 18. 
 
 " Upon this rock :" was Peter tliis rock 1 The words sound much 
 alike, {Fetms and Peira). Let us examine the passage. One of the 
 internal evidences of the truth of the apostolic writings is, that each 
 writer has something peculiar to himself. So has every s|)eaker and 
 teacher, that has appeared amongst men. Jesus Christ liimself had 
 his peculiar characteristics. One of his peculiarities most clearly 
 marked by the four evangelists is, that he consecrated every scene 
 and circumstance and topic of conversation to religion or morality. A 
 few examples, out of many that might be given, must suffice. When 
 standing by the sea of (lalilee, he says to the fishermen, who were 
 casting their nets into the sea: "follow me, and I will m;ike you 
 Juhem of men." At the well of Samaria, he says to a Samaritan wom- 
 an, from whom he asked a drink — " Whoev(;r .shall drink of this wa- 
 ter shall thirst again ; but whoever drinks of the water tliiit I shall 
 give liirn, shall never thirst : but it shall be in him a well of water 
 sprintring up to eternal life." While with his disciples in the 
 temple, and seeing the sheep going up to be sacrificed, he says : " My 
 sheep hear my voice, and they follow me ;" and he speaks of himself 
 as the true shepherd, who lays down his life for his sheep. Mis dis- 
 ciples having forgotlcn to l;iKo bread, when embarking on the lake, 
 and when talking about it, he took occasion to say : " Bewaro of tlio
 
 84 DEBATE O.-y THE 
 
 leavon of the Pharisees." When on Mount Olivet, annong the vines 
 and olives, he says, " I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine- 
 dresser." And when lookinfj at the temple, he says: "Destroy this 
 temple, and 1 will huild it in tiiree days." — So in the passage before 
 us. He asks his diseijjles an all important question, in reply to which, 
 one of them who happens to Ix; named Fcter, utters the great truth, 
 upon which he is to found his cliurch forever : " Thou art the Christ, 
 (the Messiah), the Son of the living (ion." Jesus turns to him 
 and says : " Thou art stone, and upon this rock (on this great truth 
 which flesh and blood has not revealed to thee), I will build my 
 church." 
 
 Ej try riergsf, Kit et; t-jlvt-.i th rme/^ — " ei su Petros, kai epi iaute ie peira'^ 
 — ' You are Peter and upon this pclra,^ strikes the ear of a Grecian as 
 ' thou art stone and upon this roc/r,' strikes the ear of an English man ; 
 and as we have seen is a part of the Savior's peculiarity. 
 
 The construction of language requires that the word " //n's" should 
 refer to something antecedent different from thoa, or you. They are 
 different in person and in case. But not only does the Savior's peculiar 
 cKaracteristics, and the change of person from " thou'''' the personal, 
 to this the demonstrative, fix the sense : but other considerations of 
 
 freat moment, forbid any other interpretation. For let me ask, why 
 id .Tesus propound the question to his apostles — why did he elicit 
 from them so great a truth, if in the solemn declaration which imme- 
 diately follows, he meant to pass by that truth and allude to Peter 
 alone. This would be a solecism unprecedented — a case unparalleled. 
 The whole authority of the christian religion and all its excellency is 
 embraced in the radical ideas whicii had been for the first time pro-? 
 nounced by the lips of man. There are, indeed, but three car<linal 
 ideas in all christian doctrine : for there can be but three cardinal 
 ideas about any being. Two of these are distinctly embodied in Pe-- 
 ter's confession of faith. The whole three are, 1st tl>e person, 2nd 
 the oflice, and 3rd the character of Christ. Beyond these — person 
 office and character, what conception can mortals have of our Redeemer % 
 Peter mouthed of these, the two which gave value to the third — The 
 person and the mission of Jesus. He was the first mortal who, dis- 
 tinctly and intelligibly avowed the faith, in the person and mission of 
 Jesus the Nazarene, upon which the empire of the ransomed race 
 shall stand forever. This is the good confession spoken by Jesus 
 himself at the hazard of his life, before Pontius Pilate, of which 
 Paul speaks in terms of the highest admiration. 
 
 This great truth deservedly stands forward under the bold meta- 
 phor of the Rock. But still more creditable to this truth, — not " flesh 
 and blood," but the Heavenly I'^alher first uttered it from Heaven. On 
 the banks of the Jordan, when Jesus had honored his Father in his 
 baptism, his Father honored him ; and was it not worthy to be honor- 
 ed b)' proclaiming it from the opening sky, " This is my Son, the be- 
 loved in ichont J dc/ight,^^ while the descending Dove marked him 
 out? A Pagan poet said, 
 
 "3.(-v.r introdufu- a (iod unless upon nn occasion vvoi-tljy of Ijiiii;"* 
 And who feels not the propriety of such an introduction here ; for 
 when first spoken, no angel in heaven, nor man on earth, could intro- 
 duce the Messiah, in his proper person, but his own Father. Now, 
 
 * Nee Deus intersit nisi dignus vindice uodus — Inciderit. — //or.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC HELIGIOX. 85 
 
 because Peter was the first to utter it, Jesus says to him : " I will give 
 to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall 
 bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose 
 on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 
 
 What a controversy there has been about these keys. Jesus gave 
 them to Peter alone — not to him, his heirs, and successors forever ! I 
 was denoted as heterodox a few years since, because I alleged that 
 the opening of the reign or kingdom of hiaven, by Peter to Jews and 
 Gentiles, was the true exposition of the kfeys. But I am glad to see 
 this view promulged now from various reputable sources, even from 
 Trinity College, Dublin. Peter opened the kingdom of heaven on 
 the day of Pentecost, and by divulging a secret never told to that day, 
 viz. " Let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has 
 made that Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." This 
 annunciation of the coronation, or Chrisiing, that is anointing of Je- 
 sus king and governor of the universe, was a new revelation made on 
 the Pentecostian morn by Peter. He declared remission on that day 
 to 3000 souls, and introduced them into the kingdom of the Messiah. 
 Again, when it pleased God to visit the Gentiles in the family of 
 Cornelius, a Roman centurion ; an angel sent from heaven, command- 
 ed him to send for Peter to Joppa to come and tell him and his rela- 
 tions '•^wofds by which himself and his friends might be saved." He 
 did so. He sent, and Peter came. Why thus call upon Peter'? Be- 
 cause Christ's gifts are without repentance. He had given him the 
 keys. He therefore must open the two-leaved gate, and introduce 
 both Jews and Gentiles into the kingdom. This being once done, 
 needs not to be repeated. The gates of heaven have not since been 
 locked. There is no more use for the keys. Peter has them yet. 
 He took them to heaven with him. He did not will them to any heir 
 or successor. The popes are fighting for shadows. Heaven never 
 trusted such gentry witli tlio keys. They miglit take into their heads 
 to lock the lierotics out. 1 tliank God that he gave them to Peter, 
 that Peter opened the gates of the kingdom of heaven to us all, and 
 that as the popos cannot sluit Ihcm, we do not need them a second 
 time. Peter will guard them, till he who has the key of David, who 
 opens and nonf? can shut, will appear a soroiid time. Tluis we dis- 
 pose rationally, and I think srripturally, of this grand text. 
 
 'I'hc next text upon which confidence is placed by my opponent, is 
 Mhere Christ says to Peter, " Feed my sheep, feed my lambs." 
 lianguage has no meaning but from the context. Every word serves 
 to fix the meaning of its contextural associates. We. must read the 
 2lst chapter of John's Testimony, from the beginning, if we would 
 correctly understand this |)asaage. The facts are : Peter and some 
 of his brethren had returned to Cialilee, disconcerted and overwhelm- 
 ed with the events of the day. They felt themselves destitute, forsa- 
 ken, and in need. Whih; their master was with them he provided 
 for them in some way. He eould say, when I sent yon witlnmt scrip 
 or KlafT or monry, did you lack any thing] They answer( <1, no. Hut 
 he was gone, and thi'y knew not what to do. in this distress, Peter 
 says " I am ffoing a fishing," and the rest accompany him : but they 
 toiled all night and caught nothing. In the morning they see the Sa- 
 vior walking on the shore ; they know him not. He says to thoni, 
 "Children, have yf)n any meati" Tliey answer, "no." He tells them 
 to cast on the other side of the bark. They do so and take a large 
 H
 
 86 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Tmmber of fish. Peter, when he knew it was the Lord, girt his fish- 
 erman's garment around him, leaped into the lake, and swam ashore. 
 They dine together, and after they had eaten to satiety, Jesus says to 
 Peter, "75o you love me more than these ?" 
 
 My construction of these words is, "Do you love me more than 
 these fish, or these victuals." He then says to Peter, " Feed my 
 lambs :" and the fact before him and all the circumstances say, I will 
 feed you. 
 
 The bishop's construction is, "Do you love me more than these dis- 
 ciples love mel" But how could Peter answer such a question -1 
 Was he omniscient to know how much his companions loved his mas- 
 ter. In that case he would have said, "Lord I love thee, but I do not 
 know how much my brethren love thee ; they also love thee, but I 
 know not whether I love thee more than tliey do." But suppose he 
 could have known, then I ask, was it comely to ask so invidious a 
 question ? Would not they have felt themselves disparaged, if Peter 
 had said, "Yes Lord, I love thee more than all my fellow apostles love 
 thee!!!" 
 
 Peter had erred. He had become discontented — .had forgotten his 
 duty to his master, and had betaken himself to his former occupation 
 of fishing, and induced the rest to join him. Christ asks him sol- 
 emnlj', " Do you love me more than these fish, these boats", nets, ap- 
 paratus, or these victuals, this worldly employment ] if so, cease to 
 spend your time in providing food for yourself; but feed my sheep 
 and lambs, and I will provide for you." Besides, he having caught 
 nothing till the Master appeared, was a very striking lesson, which I 
 presume Peter never forgot. I confess, I think the gentleman's inter- 
 pretation of sheep as bishops, and lambs as laity, most singularly ar- 
 bitrary and fantastic, and needs not a grave reply. So we dispose of 
 the second grand text on which the church of Rome has leaned with 
 so much confidence for so many ages. 
 
 My learned opponent has not yet afforded us evidence for his as- 
 sumption of official supremacy for Peter. These texts reach not the 
 case. They do not institute a new office bestowed on Peter but are 
 tokens of esteem, for reasons personal. Every privilege he received 
 was on account of some personal pre-eminence, not because of an of- 
 fice which he held. The canon law has decreed that a personal priv- 
 ilege doth follow the person and is extinguished with the person. 
 Now as all the honors vouchsafed Peter were in consequence of his 
 promptness, courage, penitence, zeal, &c. they never can become the 
 reasons of an hereditary office. His supremacy, or rather superiori- 
 ty, or primacy, most naturally arose from his being one of the first, if 
 not the first convert — the oldest of Christ's disciples ; because he was 
 prompt, decided, courageous, zealous, ardent, and above all, he was 
 a married man, had a wife and family. And although this fact might 
 not comport with his being the fountain of papal authority, it obtain- 
 ed him an honor above John the bachelor, and all the bachelors of 
 that age !! 
 
 Once more on this subject — let ipe ask, who made a more volunta- 
 ry surrender of himself to his master — who more promptly fors6ok 
 all that he had, than he — who, when his Lord asked, will ye also leave 
 me, with more ardor said ; " Lord, to whom shall we go but to thee ; 
 for thou hast the words of eternal life V Who more courageously, 
 in the time of peril, drew his sword to defend his Master ] who, when
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 87 
 
 the Savior foretold his own sufferings and indignities, more affection- 
 ately and devotedly exclaimed, in the warmth of his heart, " Lord, it 
 shall not be so done unto thee !" 
 
 It is true that this ardor of disposition, this promptness, this deci- 
 sion of character, sometimes betray their possessor into errors ; yet 
 who will not say, give me the man of energy and decision, and ardor 
 of character] John was meek as a dove; he was innocent and amia- 
 ble as a lamb, and the Lord loved him ; but those bold and stern, and 
 manly virtues he wanted, which gave so much interest to the charac- 
 ter of Peter ; and so admirably fitted him to stand forward and fore- 
 most, amongst his colleagues and fellow apostles. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 Do you love me more than these JishU My brethren, if the subject 
 were not too serious, I should call my friend's construction a fish story ! 
 
 Jesus Christ said to Peter, " lovest thou me more than these T" js/ua 
 his — what, if fish 1 {i^ovao') plus quam has. There is an end to all 
 that argument. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. That is the Latin version. Let us have the Greek. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. The Greek is not more plain, nor will it prove 
 your interpretation less revolting, less contrary to the obvious and 
 more common interpretation of the text. Sad conclusion this, which 
 my learned opponent reserved as his main reliance, for the last hour 
 of the day ! And is it thus that he proves the church of Rome to be 
 neither catholic, apostolic, nor holy, but an apostacy from the only 
 true, holy and apostolic church of Christ 1 He is heartily welcome 
 to the proselytes this argument may gain to his tottering cause. 
 Let learned Protestants now claim their champion's services in the 
 difficult task of interpreting the scripture — or let them, as I have pro- 
 phesied they would do, repudiate his advocacy. 
 
 The change of name from Simon to Peter, shows that Christ chose 
 him to be, beyond the other apostles, a rncA-, or more firm, more con- 
 stant, more immoveabi»' than they — and tliat forever — in the confession 
 of his divinity, his real nresence with his church and all the other 
 truths he had vonrhsafccl to reveal to thn world. A rock does not 
 melt. — The winds may beat and the rains may fall, but the house 
 built upon a rock will stand, not for a few years, but forever. And 
 as the rork, in the physi<'al order loses not its nature, so neither do the 
 promises of Christ lose their efficacy. "Thou art Peter, (or a rock) 
 and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall 
 not prevail against it." .Mattiicw xvi. 18. 
 
 A professor of Andovcr ('oilegc has i)ublished a volume, I think it 
 is entitlfd "Elements of Sacred Criticism." I have examined this 
 work, but my memory retains not the author's name, — perhajjs some 
 of the learnfd gentlemen present may aid it by the suggestion — how- 
 ever, he substantiates my interpretation, or ratbrr that of all ages, by 
 incontrovertil)le argiimcnf. And I eoiifcss tlic Anieriran College has, 
 in this instanee, a decided superiority, both in sound eriticism and or- 
 thodoxy, over the "dumb sister," as the Knglish and Srotch universi- 
 ties have invidiously, or faretiously, named Trinity College, Dublin. 
 
 There is one plausible <iiirieulty, ajrainst tiie testimony of I'eter'a 
 havintr fixed bis residence at Rome, whieh the gentleman has overlook- 
 ed, viz. that Paul does not mention Peter in his epistle to the Romans.
 
 88 DKBATK ON THE 
 
 To explain this, it is only necessary to observe, Paul wrote A. D. 57. 
 in the reign of Claudius, when Peter was absent from Rome ; and 
 this the illustrious convert of Damascus knew. But why waste time 
 on a subject undisputed for fifteen hundred years. Pearson, Grotius, 
 Usher, Hammond, Blondel, IScalifrer, Casaubon, Dumoulin, Petit, 
 Basnage, all agree that Peter transferred his see to Rome and there 
 suffered martyrdom. 
 
 And here another objection is overruled ; he said there had been 
 contests among the apostles, who should be greatest. He said that 
 if Peter had confessed that he loved him most, a greater controversy 
 would have arisen. But there was good cause to the contrary. An- 
 drew saw him first — John reposed on his bosom, &c. — for many rea- 
 sons, these disputes may have arisen — surely such objections after so 
 great a mass of testimony deserved not serious attention. 
 
 I have long ago seen, in a little work written in Philadelphia, the 
 remarks of my friend about the Savior's saying he was the vine, when 
 among the vines, on mount Olivet, &c. &c. This is not therefore orig- 
 inal or new. 
 
 I now take up a connected argument on the apostolicity of the church, 
 for I wish this matter to go before the public in its peculiar strength. 
 I look upon it as the most powerful argument that can be advanced in 
 favor of the Catholic church. I read from Fletcher. His style is good. 
 
 " Christ Jesus had called the apostles '■Jishers of men,' he had told them to 
 'g'O and preach the gospel lo every creature,' assuring them, at the same time, 
 that 'all power was given to him iyi heaven, and on earth,' and that ' himself 
 would be always with them.' Animated by this commission, and these assurance*, 
 and fired too with the love of God, and an ardent charity for men, these heroic 
 victims of benevolence, did ' go forth and preach.' I'hey preached; and although 
 the world with all its passions, prejudices and super.ititions was leagued against 
 them; — although its doctrines, which they preached, were repugnant to all the 
 bad propensities of the heart, and exceeded far the measure of the human under- 
 standing; yet did an immense portion of the public, of the corrupted and 
 the vicious, of the learned and the enlightened, hear them, and believe. They 
 preached; and the love of vice was converted into zeal for innocence; prejudice, 
 into the desire of truth: superstition, into the warmth of piety. Vice itself was 
 exalted into the heroism ot sanctity; and every defilement done away, which cor- 
 ruption had introduced into the sanctuary of the heart. They preached; and 
 Satan, like a thunderbolt, was hurled from his throne; his temples razed; his 
 altars overturned; and idolatry, abashed and trembling, fled from those scenes, 
 which it had so long disgraced by its follies, and infected by its abominations. 
 They preached; and the Lniverse was changed ! The spectacle which theyexhi- 
 bitecl was new; the spectacle of exalted virtue and consummate wisdom. Men 
 beheld the virtue and it edified them; they listened to the wisdom, and it con- 
 vinced them. In this manner did the first apostles of Jesus Christ completely 
 realize the figure of the 'Jishers of men,' completely verify the assurance which 
 their divine Master had given them, that ' himself wovld be always with them,' 
 completely illustrate that passage of St. Paul, in which he says, ' God employs 
 the weak to confound the strong, and the foolish to confute the wise.' It is the 
 call and mission of the apostles, which are the sources of the call and mission 
 of their successors; and it is the successes that attended the preaching of the 
 apostles, that are the proof, not only of the divinity of their mission, but of the 
 mission of those who have replaced, and shall yet replace them till the end of 
 time. In religion, as every thing was originally apostolical , so every thing to 
 merit veneration, must continue apostolical. According to the definition and 
 import of apostolicity, it is necessary that the church which was founded by the 
 apostles, and the mission also which was imparted to the apostles, should, 
 without destruction, or interruption, have been perpetuated to the age we live 
 in, firm amid revolutions, unchanged amid changes. 
 
 I have said, that to ascertain in the Catholic cnurch this stability of duration, 
 a more positive proof cannot be adduced, than the spectacle of its pastors (who
 
 E03IAN CATHOLIC BKLIGION. 89 
 
 compose a large portion of its members, and whose functions are the most im- 
 portant duties of religion) rigularjy in each age, succeeding to each other, and 
 trausiuitling to each, the mission which origiiialh- had been inherited from the 
 iiauds of the apostles. The only diliicull)' here, is by the light of evidence to 
 establish these important facts. Well, wy brethren, and this is what, without 
 any difficulty, the Catholic exults to do. To do it we need only to consult the 
 recordsof history; those records which the Protestant himself considers authentic. 
 The light of history is a testimony, which, beyond the power of reasonable doubt, 
 attests the regular and perennial succession of the Catholic ministry. 
 
 The apostles, whom Christ had sent, as his Father had sent him; and with 
 ■whom, likewise, he had promised to remain all Jays to the end of the world; in 
 consequence of the above commission and assurance, chose for themselves co- 
 operators and successors in their sacred ministry: — co-operators, in order to 
 ■assist them in the government of the churches which their zeal had planted; — 
 successors, to whom, on occasion of their departure from this scene of their 
 labors, they might resign the burden of their lunctions, and the honor of their 
 sees. jVow, fortunately for the cause of religion, we have in the annals of 
 history, and in the writings of the learned, the accounts very carefully preserved-, 
 of the resignations, which the apostles made of ^hcir functions and sees to their 
 successors; and of the resignations also which their successors' successors made, 
 during a series of ages, to the pastors, who, in long order, have till the present 
 age, continually replaced each other. Among these accounts, that which of all 
 others is the most interesting, and which religion has preserved with the nicest 
 care, is the history of the continuation until to-day, of the apostolic powers which 
 Christ Jesus conferred upon the prince of the apostles, St. Peter. We have, 
 thanks to that Providence, whicli watches over the church, and which marks its 
 paths with beams of light, we have the proof of this continuation so luiiiinously 
 attested, so evident, that not hostility can contest, nor incredulity doubt it. 
 Important testimony! itself a bright feature in the divinity of the church; a tes- 
 timony, which, proving immtdiateij the apostolicity of the mission of its supreme 
 pastors, proves also immediately, yet directly, the apostolicity of the mission of 
 aU its other pastors. For, if you consult the rolls of history, you will find that 
 with our supreme pastors, the Catholic pastors of every age, and of every nation, 
 were always united in communion; acknowledging their supereminence, and 
 revering their jurisdiction; considering them as the great source, after Christ, 
 of spiritual power, and the centre of spiritual unity. 
 
 There have been several distinguished writers, who, incapable of misrepresen- 
 tation, and possessing the means of knowing the history of the successors of St. 
 Peter, and the order of their succession, have carefully handed down to us, each 
 to bis own time, the lists of these illustrious men. The first of these I believe, 
 who is known to have preserved the important catalogue, is .St. Irenaeus. 
 
 After TerluUian, the next who continues the catalogue of St. Peter's succes- 
 sors, is St. Oplalus. He brings it down to the time of Siricius; that is, to the 
 year three hundred Juid eighty-four. * In this one chair,' says the saint, speak- 
 ing of the tee of Home, • sal Feter first, to him succeeded lAniis,lohim Cltmenl, 
 
 if. To Liheriiis succeeded JJamasns ; to Damasus, .Siricius, the present 
 
 pontiff, with whom we and all the world hold communion. And now,' he addsi 
 addresning himself cxultingly to the Doiiatist, 'and now, do you ^irc an account 
 of the orifrinof your sees, you, that pretend to call yourselves the Catholic church.' 
 (Contra Parmen.) 
 
 St. Austin is another writer, who had attended to the succession, and has preserv- 
 ed for us, the list ot St. Petir's successors; deriving from the long order of their con- 
 tinuance, the same conclusions as did Ircnicus, '1 ertnllian, niid Optatiis. The list 
 which the Saint has rommunicated, reaches down to his own time, to the pontifi- 
 cate of Innocent the first, in the year four hundred and two, and in its earlier 
 eras, it exactly corresponded with the list which I have alluded to already. 
 ♦ Come,' »ay» he to the Donatists, ' come, lirethren, if it he that you wish to lie in- 
 grnfied on the vine. J weep to see you as you are ; lopped o/f from its sacred 
 stock. Count up the pontiffi in the chair of I'ctcr, and in tjutt order see which 
 tuccerded which. This is that Rock, over which, the proud gales of hell cannot 
 prevail.' 
 
 Hcnrr, without the necessity of producing further t<->timonirii. it follown, if 
 men will not contest tlie authority, or cull in <)ue»lion the veracity of sonic of 
 the fairest characters, that the christian world reveres; it follows that from the 
 
 «2 la
 
 DO DKUATE ON TIIF, 
 
 time of St. Pt'ter to tlic time of Innoront, in the fifth rrntury, there existed ?n 
 the sf o of Rome, an iniiiiterrupt. il cliaiii of jias-tors, and a continuation of an 
 apostolic mission. The continuation of that .same apostuiic mis.-iion which Christ 
 Jesus had imparted to St. Peter. Only he, can doubt tliis, whose incredulity 
 doubts of every thing. 
 
 And has the chain of Roman pastors, — for this is now the only point which we 
 must investigate, — been continued and extended from the time of Innocent the 
 first, to the present day; an interval, it is true, extremely long, and filled up with 
 storms, and changes, and revolutions and great events? Yes, the chain has been 
 continued and extended all this whole length of period; from Innocent, who 
 consoled the great Chrj'sostom, under the persecution of an ambitious princess, 
 to Fius the seventh, wlio himself is the heroic victim of the persecution of a re- 
 lentless \ ictor. Indeed, the fact is so obvious, it is not even contested. It is 
 conceded by tlie men, who are interested to deny it. To be assured of it, you 
 need only to consult the political annuls of any considerable state, or to appeal 
 in our historians to the mere tal^lets of chronology. You will find that all give 
 to our Roman pontill's the same line and hngth of succession, which I here 
 assign them. Their conduct has been always prominent; their influence always 
 conspicuous. I'ew were the great events and transactions, in which, cither 
 from a principle of piety, or sometimes of ambition, they did not bear a part. 
 
 Yes, but if prompted by curiosity, you will give yourselves the trouble to con- 
 sult the annals of the church, there you will trace, more distinctly still, the evi- 
 dence of the truth, wliich I am novv establishing;. There attending to the occur- 
 rences of each epoch, you will observe, that the helm which had been confided 
 to the trust of Peter, is with the greatest regularity transferred from hand to 
 hand; and with pious care, confided to the trust of each successor. You may 
 mark the name, and read the character of each individual, who directed it, the 
 date of the day when it was committed to his guidance; and the hour, almost, 
 when he resigned. In short, admitting the accuracy of the lists which have been 
 preserved by Irenneus, Tertullian, &c., you trace in the annals of the church, a 
 clear, plain, and incontestible evidence of a line of Roman pontiffs, the succes- 
 sors of St. Peter, during the long course of above eighteen hundred years. 
 
 If tlie ancient fathers, in their times, and at the distance only of a few years, 
 so triumphantly produced the list of these holy men, evincing by it the divinity 
 of the church, and the apostolicity of the mission of its pastors, and by it confu- 
 ting the novelty and clain)s of heresy; if Tertullian, impressed with tlie force of 
 this argument, victoriously called out to the hosts of innovators, " sheiu us any 
 thing like this. Unfold and shew us the origin of your churches ; shew us the list 
 of your bishops, in regular order from tlie days of the apostles, succeeding to 
 each other;" if he couJd say to them, " fVho are you? Whence is your origin de- 
 rived? JVhat have you to do in my estate? lam the possessor. My posses- 
 sionis ancient. I am the heir of the apostles." if he could say all this; and 
 from this, after scarcely the lapse of two centuries and the succession of hardly 
 a dozen pontitis, demonstrate the apostolicity of the church; with how much 
 more reason and with how nmch more effect, might I, or any other Catholic, 
 demonstrate its apoetolicity at present, at psesent when the continuance of Pe- 
 ter's successors (ornis a chain, of above eighteen hundred years, and their num- 
 ber fills up a list of above tivo hundred and fifty pontiffs? Oh! were only a Ter- 
 tullian now, or an Austin, standing in the same situation in which I am placed 
 before you, addressing you from this seat of truth and pressing the same argu- 
 ment, which I do to day, upon your attention; and pressing it recommended by 
 the circumstances which I have just referred to, how the thoughts would glow, 
 and the words burn, with which the}' would convey the exultation of these feel- 
 ings to j-ou! How the cause of truth would triumph in their eloquence! With 
 what redoubled enthusiasm would they exclaim, " let heresy sheio any thing like 
 this?" In reality, if the argument which these great men have employed to 
 prove the apostolicity of the church, proved aught in their times, it certainly 
 proves the same, and a great deal more, at present. 
 
 To the thoughtful and the philosophic mind, there ia much, I have already ob- 
 served, to admire in the stability of^ the church amid the fluctuation of human 
 things. It is the same in regard to the long continuance of the successors of St. 
 Peter. Wisdom and reason, when they consider it, are struck with wonder; 
 and piety discovers in it the visible effect of an Almighty superintendance. The 
 institutions of men soon perish. The modifications of human policy do not long
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 91 
 
 retain their forms. Nothing human is permanent. To contemplate, therefore, an 
 order of pontifl's reaching the whole length of eighteen centuries unchanged, 
 whilst every thing else was changing; uninterrupted, whilst all other institutions 
 were perishing. — is a spectacle at once striking, awful, and impressive ; calculat- 
 ed to inspire the protestant himself, if not with the conviction of its divinity, at 
 least with a conviction of its wisdom ; with a respect for its strength ; with a 
 veneration for its antiquity. Let only reason cast a look into the annals of time, 
 or recall to its recollection the events and revolutions, which during the lapse of 
 eighteen centuries, have taken place on the theatre of life. During that interval, 
 in every kingdom of the civilized world, every government has changed its form ; 
 every dynasty resigned its power : every empire sgnk to ruin. Rome itself, dur- 
 ing It, has experienced in particular, a'll the vicissitudes of human instability : 
 has been ruled alternately by Consuls, Kniperors. Kings and Exarchs : has been 
 taken, plundered, sacked 'and reduced almost to a heap of ashes. In short, during 
 it, every thing that is human and political,— the work of the power and ambition. 
 of the wisdom and art of men, has either perished or undergone a variety of al- 
 terations — Kingdoms, states, cities, monuments, laws, opinions, customs, here- 
 sies. JVought but the succession of our pontifl's, and the institutions of our holy 
 religion, have remained unaltered. These alone, amid the general revolution ; 
 amid the storms of war ; the ravages of passion ; the conflicts of heresy, subsist 
 undecayed and undecaying. They even subsist in spite of all those evils ; 
 though assailed by the violence of persecution ; though combated by the machi- 
 nations of passion ; though attacked by the artificesof error ; though assaulted by 
 the combined efforts of vice, Satan aiid the world. Surely prejudice itself will 
 own it, — a succession of Pastors thus perpetuated for eightten centuries, and per- 
 petuated amid such obstacles, is not the efl'ect of chance, nor of earthly policy; 
 not the creation of ambition, northe ofl'spring of worldly wisdom. The only 
 method of accounting rationally for it, is to allow, that it is the result of a divine 
 institution ; and the consequence of that assurance given by ourgreat Redeemer 
 to his apostles, that he icould be u-ith them all days, to the end of the world; — or 
 in other words, that it is the result and the iiroof of an apostolic mission. 
 
 from the evidences of the apostolicity ot the church of Rome, is inferred the 
 evidence of the apostolicity of the various other Catholic churches, which are 
 disposed throughout the universe. In reality, they are all of them the parts of 
 one whole ; the branches of one tree ; the streams of one fountain ; the rajs of 
 one sun. They all form only one communion, whose centre and head is the 
 church of Rome. Of these churches, some were established by the apostles 
 themselves, and their immediate successors ;— some and a very considerable part, 
 by the soccessors of St. Peter, the Roman pontiffs, who in each age have w i(h pi- 
 ous zeal, deputed missionaries to preach the gospel in almost every region of the 
 globe. Rutin every age, and in every region, the churches that were thus 
 planted, vsere only considered ae apostolical, or as portions of the true church, 
 from the evidence of their union with the church ot Rome. It is the remark of 
 St. Jerome ; (hat no bishop was ever acknowledp^ed to he a lavful bishop, 
 except in as much, as he was united in communion with the chair of SI. 
 Filer." 
 
 And why may I not adduce as another evidence of the apostolic mission of 
 our pastors, the venerable subsistence of a multitude of other churches, which, 
 without having lasted from the age, which saw the apostle<! live, have still lasted 
 from the ages that are not long subsequent to it ? 'Phis is the rase with several 
 churches in Sjjain, Italy, IVaiice, A:c. In Spain, the churches of Toledo, Cordo 
 va, Ac. in Itiilv.thoie of Milan, Naples, &c. in F'rance, those of Lyons, Tours. 
 etc. have subnisted from the early ages of christian fervor ; from those ages which 
 are often denominated apostolical, down to the- present period of de'ge nerac}'. 
 Their nnnalt, more accurately preserved than the iiiinals of civil govt rimii nis, 
 exhibit to onr astonished, but gratifird reason, a line of pnstorsduring this whole 
 length of age» — unbroken anel uninlerrupte-d — uninjureel by the violence of per- 
 secutions, at well ns unimpaired l)y the sunshine ol prosperity ; n line of pai-tors 
 that in canonical succession have' till the present day, replaced rarli other. 
 These are monuments of stability, coinpareil with winch profane history has 
 nothing similar ; I'rolrstanlism nr)thing analogous. These too atdsl the n|)os(ol- 
 icily of the mission of our pastors; nnd th<' apostolicity conm qiiently of our 
 church. And now once more, let it be recollected, in relation tonll thesecliurches, 
 that their founders, and the successors of their founders, were in comniunion with
 
 92 ' DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the see of Ranie: — the former ileputod perhaps ininicd lately by it ; the latter ex- 
 ulting: always in their union with it us the best proof of tiic apostolicity of their 
 own <!f Icgiition." 
 
 f Tlio above qiiotntion was read in parts, in twu Jifierent speeclies ; but it has been 
 thought prO)i>;r to ins. rt it entire, here.] 
 
 I close here. To-morrow is the sabbath of our God. Let us de- 
 vote the remainder of the day to the preparation of our souls for its 
 holy duties. 
 
 MONDAY, January 16th, Half past ^ o'clock, A. M, 
 RIr. Campbell rises — 
 
 It is a trite and a true observation, that the material universe is re- 
 solvable into a very few elementary principles. And not a iev; of our 
 wisest philosophers supptjse that the time may yet come, in the pro- 
 gress of chemical science, when material nature will be resolved into 
 some two, or three rudimentary elements. The sciences, too, mental 
 and moral, are all resolvable into a few great cardinal principles. 
 
 The papal empire itself depends also upon a few points, indeed, up- 
 on one great point, and thai relates to the office upon which the whole 
 superstructtire rusts. The most fundamental question is not whether 
 the apostle Peter was invested with the office of pope, or vicar of 
 Christ; but rather lohelher there ever ivas such an office at all. On this 
 question we have not proceeded in the most logical manner. I have 
 been compelled to approach it at different times, and by different ave- 
 nues. My opponent has not adverted to the rules of this discussion. 
 I am compelled to lead, and he to follow. He can only lawfully reply 
 to such matter as I introduce. But instead of replying to my argu- 
 ments, already offered, he read you some dissertations upon succession 
 to an office, not yet canvassed and established. This reading of for- 
 eign discussions instead of replying to me is contrary to our rules and 
 most illogical. I hope we shall have no more of it. What was read 
 on Saturday afternoon on the question of succession is clearly irrele- 
 vant. Before we contend about succession, the question is, What is 
 to be succeeded to ? We have had seven presidents, and the succes- 
 sion is indisputable; yai the office depends not upon the seven incum- 
 bents, nor upon their rightful succession ; but upon what is written in 
 the constitution — upon the positive and express institution of the office. 
 
 If it is not found in the constitution, succession is of no virtue: 
 however unbroken and orderly it may be, the present incumbent has 
 no power. The grand question then is, Is there in the constitution of 
 the Christian church, in the New Covenant, or last Testament, a chair 
 of primacy, or superintendency? This is the logical and the cardinal 
 question. On this single point rest all the fortunes of the papacy in 
 an enlightened comnmnity. I wish all to perceive it, and I will pre- 
 sent it in different forms. The first question is, Has Jesus Christ ap- 
 pointed the office of pope? The second, Who was the first officer? Third, 
 IVus there a succession ordained ? and fourth, Has that succession been 
 preserved uncoriupt to the present day ? In this way our reason, or 
 common sense, or logic arranges the matter; and in this way only can 
 it be rationally and scripturally decided. With all men of sense, the 
 controversy will hang on this point. A failure here is ruin to the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 93 
 
 cause. If this point cannot be proved, it is as useless to contest oth- 
 ers, as it would be to finish a house that is built upon the ice. Strike 
 off the head and the body perishes. Yet this capital point rests upon 
 an inference ! 
 
 How would an American like to be told that the office of president 
 depended upon an inference 1 that there was no provision for it in the 
 constitution — that it was inferred from twenty clauses, scattered here 
 and there in as many sections'? Could it be possible, that the 
 greatest office in this nation — the very head of this government, should 
 rest on the construction of these clauses ; that there is no chapter in 
 the constitution, expressly creating the office 1 Yet, this is precisely 
 the case with the pope. The gentleman does not claim for him a po- 
 sitive grant in the New Testament. He must acknowledge that there 
 is no such office distinctly asserted — that it depends on the reasonings 
 of fallible men to ferret it out. Here I must expose the nakedness of 
 the land and sweep from the arena the dust of tradition, which blinds 
 the eyes of implicit believers. 
 
 It is said by the Romanists that a belief in the supremacy of the 
 
 fiope is essential to salvation. Boniface VIII. decrees in his canon 
 aw in the words following: 
 " Moreover we declare, and say, and define, and pronounce to every human 
 crealure, that it is altogether necessary to salvation to be subject to the Roman 
 pontiir." 
 
 It appears, if not pedantic, at least awkward to read Latin to an 
 English audience. However, my learned opponent, so often sets me 
 the example, that he will allow me to quote this important decree : 
 
 " Subesse Romano Pontifici, omnis humana' crcalurce declaramus, dicimus, 
 dcjinimxis, et prunimciamus omnino esse necessitate salutis." 
 
 It is then solemnly decreed that a ^belief in, and submission to, the 
 Roman pontiffis essential to salvation. Ought not, then, his authority 
 to be as clearly pointed out in the Bible as the mission of Jesus 
 Christ? for the person and mission and sacrifice of Christ are to us 
 useless, without faith in the pope. Again, of what use is the Bible, 
 without this belief; and especially, if so important a matter is so ob- 
 scurely expressed in it as to rest upon a mere inference 1 Does the 
 person and office of Christ depend on a mere inference 1 Is it not as- 
 serted and re-asserted, a liundrcrl times by the voices of all the j)ro- 
 phcts and apostles of both Testaments 1 In the Jewish economy, the 
 high Priest was on earth : but in our economy he is in Heaven. There 
 was truth in the type, and there must be truth in the anti-type. Yet 
 every thing concerning that priesthood was positively and expressly 
 ordained. The office, the officr-r, the succession, and tiic means of 
 keeping the blood pure. For, No man dare "lake that office upon 
 himself, but he that was called of God, as was Aaron." Aaron then 
 was distinctly called to be a high priest. Now we argue that if wo 
 had a high priest on earth imder our high Priest in heaven, and if salva- 
 tion hang upon obedience to him : it ought to be as clear as that of Aaron. 
 But in referenci! to the Old Testament priesthood, we find every 
 thing distinctly and unefjuivocally stated, Kxodus xxviii. 1. "Take 
 Aaron and his sons from among the children of Israel, that In- and they 
 may minister to me in fhe pritist's office." Again, xl. I.'}. " And thou 
 shalt sanctify Aaron and his sf)ns, that he may niinistcr to nic \n the 
 priest's office; and their anointing ahnll surely lie an evcrlustin^ prie»t- 
 hood Ihroughottt their generalioni." How often in the books of the
 
 94 DEfiATE OS rttfi 
 
 law, and in (he subsequent history of the Jews, as it is in 1 Chron. 23(! 
 and 24th chapters, do we find the unequivocal institution and records 
 of this priesthood ! 
 
 But it is not only in a distinct and unequivocal call and consecra- 
 tion, but in the subsequent care evinced in sustaining this appoint- 
 ment, that we see the necessity of such a positive and express cove- 
 nant and understanding. The rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, 
 and the destruction, by a miraculous interposition, of themselves and 
 of their company, together with two hundred and fifty princes of Israel, 
 for seeking to invade the office, is another solemn attestation of the 
 divine erection of this oflice, and the certain call of Aaron's family. 
 
 Again : The appointment of God to select an almond rod for each 
 tribe, and to inscribe the name of each of the twelve families upon 
 those rods, every tribe's name upon a separate rod, and the miraculous 
 buddingr and blossomino and almond-bearing of Aaron's rod, in the 
 course of a single night, was another settlement of this matter, so spe- 
 cial, supernatural, and divine, as to put it to rest for ever. Here we 
 ought to read in full the 16th and 17th chapters of Numbers ; but we 
 have only time to refer to them. Thus by a positive call, and two 
 splendid and av; fully glorious miracles, was the office of the high 
 priesthood established in Israel. 
 
 And may we not ask, that if as Boniface has defined, and all Roman 
 Catholics believe, ^that there is no salvation, but in the admission of the 
 divine call of the popes of Rome ;^ ought not the institution of a new 
 order to be as clearly pointed out, and sustained in the new law, as it 
 was in the old ] ! 
 
 But my opponent has to concede that there is no such positive or 
 express institution of St. Peter's chair, nor of his call and consecra- 
 tion, nor any law of succession whatever in the New Testament; and 
 that it rests wholly upon inference. Now, if no man can take this 
 honor upon himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron, where 
 is the office and the authority of the popes of Rome 1 ! There is for it 
 no such call. Or will my friend say that mere inference or assump- 
 tion is a proper foundation for such a call and office? 
 
 On Saturday evening I began the examination of the premises from 
 which is inferred this high and responsible office ; and so far, I think, 
 proved that he cannot even find a good logical inference for it. In 
 Matthew xvi. we found no support to the idea that the church of Jesus 
 Christ was to be built upon ilie flesh and blood and bones of Peter; 
 neither upon his person nor office. We saw that every rule of gram- 
 mar — that the construction of language forbade such a transition as 
 was necessary to the hypothesis. To have addressed Peter in the 
 second and third persons as both present and absent, in the same 
 breath, is wholly unprecedented. To have spoken of him, and to 
 him at one time, in one period, and on a matter so cardinal as making 
 him the foundation of his church, is not to be admitted on the autho- 
 rity of mere assumption, without a single case parallel in all holy writ 
 to lay along side of it. 
 
 The case in no rational point of view will endure such violence. 
 Jesus asked for a confession, Peter gave it. The conversation turned 
 upon that confession, and not upon Peter. The comment ought to 
 have been upon the text, and not upon him that gave it. It was upon 
 the text and not unon the preacher.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC Seligion. 95 
 
 We Protestants say that the church is founded on the thing con- 
 fessed. Christ himself is, indeed, the rock ; hut fijruratively the truth 
 which represents him. I was struck with astonishment when I heard 
 my worthy opponent say, that Peter was the rock, and Christ only a 
 stone in this spiritual temple ! 
 
 [Bishop Purcell here explained, ' that he had said that Christ waa 
 the corner stone which was to strengthen and give consistency to the 
 foundation ; and Peter the rock which was to strengthen and give con- 
 sistency to the superstructure.'] Mr. Campbell proceeded: 
 
 Christ the corner stone! and Peter the rock ! ! Does this help the 
 matter 1 
 
 What says 1 Cor. iii. " Other foundation can no man lay than what 
 is already laid," — very Peter!! No, indeed; but Jesus Christ him- 
 self is the corner stone, the rock, the foundation? Then Peter is but 
 a slone, as his name imports. But there were eleven other stones of 
 equal value : for, says the Holy Spirit, the church is built upon the 
 foundation of the apostles — all the apostles; and of the prophets too! 
 When, then, all these stones are at the foundation, and Christ the chief 
 corner, where is the room for Peter the rock 1 
 
 But, we have other expressions that illustrate Matthew xvi. Look- 
 ing at the temple one day, Jesus said to those before him, "Destroy 
 this temple and I will build it again in three days." Were the per- 
 sons he addressed in the second person and the temple the same thing 1 
 Here, then, are the persons addressed, the subject of conversation, and 
 himself — you, (the addressed,) and the temple, (himself.) So have 
 we Peter, his confession, and Christ the builder of the church, in the 
 passage before us. They understood by his question that he spoke of 
 his body; but his body was not himself: neither was the confession 
 of Peter, Christ himself; nor Peter's person, the rock of ages. Surely 
 the papal rock is not as our rock ; our enemies themselves being judges. 
 
 Bat petros and petra sound alike, and therefore, though of different 
 gender, case, and person, they must be identical ! Of the person and 
 case we have said eno\igh, (for my friend has not attempted to refute 
 it.) Of the difference in gender, he will tell us, that it was written in 
 Syriac, and that the word signifying stone in that language is of no 
 gender. This is gratuitous. He can produce no copy of Matthew in 
 Syriac; the only authentic copy we have is that before me. It is the 
 Greek version of Matthew : " 7'Aoit" is in the second person, and "//uV 
 is in the third. I'ctros is masculine and I'ltra is feminine. It is impos- 
 sible for langiiajTc to do more to prevent iiiislakc ; and he that would 
 attempt to explain away these three — gender, person and case, is not 
 subject to the laws of language, neither tnrfccrf can be. 
 
 It is commonly observed that Peter seems not to have been any bet- 
 ter qualified aftrT than before the confession, to be the foundation of the 
 church : for In- is reproved for his worldly notions of the Messiah and 
 his kingdom, in these words ; " (ict llur In hind mr, adrrr^ary; for lliou 
 relishest not the things of God ; but the things of man." Tlie word sa- 
 innan signifies adversary. Jesus calls him not hn salanan, Satan ; but 
 simply opponent. Stand aside thou who o|)posest nic in this matter : 
 Thou dost not understand these divine ihiiiirs. 
 
 There is nnothr-r of the bishop's texts to which, out of courtesy, I 
 must allude : " Peter, when thou art converted, confirm your breth- 
 ren." The meaning of w hich is, — Peter, as you have experienced the
 
 96 DKBATE OiN THE 
 
 bitterness of repentance, you can hereafter comfort and strengthen your 
 penitent brethren. My learned opponent interprets it thus ; Peter, 
 when you are converted, you shall be my vicar and prince of the apostles .' 
 
 John xxi, "Lovest thou me more than these,'''' is again before us. The 
 bishop will have these to refer to the apostles. My audience will re- 
 member that when I read the Greek of the passage, he quoted Latin 
 {plus quam has,) as if to correct the Greek by deciding that these was 
 masculine and not neuter, the very point in debate — that when he was 
 challenged to sustain his Latin comment by the original, he immedi- 
 ately after taking up the Greek Testament laid it down. 
 
 It will elucidate this passage to read the whole in the original, verse 
 13th. 
 
 Eo^tTca 'Utou( Kit KnfAQayti tov oigTov, jcai SUceiriv aLiTo7(, )fxiTo l-^dptov ofxotut. 
 In reference to which Jesus says, Sijua<v lav:*, ayA-n-ac f*t ^tkuov TovruVi 
 The grammatical antecedent to Tourm must be tov i^rcv and th 
 c^aV/iv, which makes it neuter. Now, I ask, on what grammatical 
 authority does the Vulgate convert these into the masculine 1 
 Ought a translator to judge for his readers, or ought he to give 
 the same latitude of inquiry to his readers which the original gives to 
 him. The latter, certainly. So decides the highest tribunal in the 
 commonwealth of letters. And neither my opponent nor his Latin 
 nor Greek supplements, nor interpolations, have any right to make that 
 masculine, which the original makes at least doubtful, bimself being 
 judge : and according to my judgment, on the laws of language, cer- 
 tainly, neuter. 
 
 On what precarious, inferential and illogical grounds rest the proud 
 aspirations of the pope of Rome ! He out-rivals the proudest mon- 
 archs of the east. He that styles himself " brother to the sun and 
 moon," and " disposer of Asiatic crowns," is modest compared with 
 the vicar, who claims dominion over angels and saints in heaven — 
 over all the spirits in the wide domains of purgatory ; who styles him- 
 self, or permits others to address him as a God on earth — as " his holi- 
 ness, Lord God the Pope," as holding the keys of heaven and hell, and 
 the two swords of ecclesiastic and political justice ; and all this mighty 
 empire resting upon the words, "/)e<ra," '■'■strengthen thy brethren ^^ 
 " lovest thou me more than these,'''' '■'■feed my sheep and lambs," &c. 
 Was there ever so proud a superstructure reared upon so many and 
 so baseless assumptions V. 
 
 The gentleman quoted yet another verse from the Vulgate ; 1 Pet. 
 V. 3, " Be not lords over the clergy.'''' Hence he infers, the apostle Pe- 
 ter had the clergy under him. But the apostle says, " not as lords 
 over the. clergy," there then, was a plurality of lords,— -not one su- 
 preme head ! Although this passage was quoted at an early period 
 of the discussion, by my opponent, 1 reserved my remarks upon it till 
 now. It reads in the original and the common version, " not as lords 
 over the heritage, lot, or people of the Lord." KhyiPOi, the word here 
 translated clergy, occurs twelve times in the New Testament, and in 
 nine of these it is translated lot. In Acts, xxvi. 18, and in Col. i. 12, 
 it is translated inheritancn, and in the passage before us, it may be 
 either lot, heritage, or inheritance .• but clergy is most whimsical and 
 arbitrary. As well might the Vulgate have said to Simon Magus, 
 *' thou hast neither part nor clergy in this matter:" or, in Col. i. 12, 
 " he has fitted us to partake in the clergy of the saints." In both
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC EELIGION. 97 
 
 cases the word is the same in the original. Tliese shew by what 
 Q stretch of power and arbitrary dominion over words, these critics 
 would bring theclergry or christian ministry under the bishop of Rome. 
 So fades from the face of reason the whole evidence from the Bible, in 
 favor of the grand office without which the papacy is as mere a fig- 
 ment of fancy as the visions of the prophet of Islamism ! 
 
 Having found the office of vicar, or general superintendant of the 
 whole church, the universal -episcopate of Rome, without express or 
 positive precept or institution, and without even inferential probability; 
 I proceed in the third place to show still farther, that it is anti-scrip- 
 tural, rK)t only in theory, but in the facts recorded. > 
 
 I have said that the first church was the Hebrew. It was catholic 
 and apostolic -: for all the twelve apostles were in it. This cannot 
 be said of any other society that ever existed. The whole college of 
 the twelve apostles had their seat in Jerusalem. The Samaritan 
 daughter of .Jerusalem was the first fruits out of Judea. Philip, one of 
 the apostles' evangelists, carried the word of the Lord to Samaria. 
 They had l>elieved. repented, and been baptized. News is brought to Je- 
 rusalem. The cardinals all meet. — The twelve apostles are in session. 
 But where is Peter's chair ? The prince of the apostles, the vicar of 
 Christ, had not yet learned his duty, and his brethren had not yet 
 learned to call him pope. The fact is, they made a legate of him. 
 They sent two legates to Jerusalem. And who do you think were the 
 two first apostolic legates 1 They, indeed sent pope Peter and his broth- 
 er John !! Thus it is clear that the notion of Peter's universal episco- 
 pacy, and princeship of the apostles was not yet conceived. This fact 
 speaks a volume against the pretended successors of Peter. 
 
 But — again, and still more humiliating to his successors, when Peter 
 had introduced the Gentiles into the church, the brethren of the circum- 
 cision rose up en masse against him, not regarding him as having the 
 least supreme authority in the case. " How," do you ask, " did Peter 
 receive the complaints from all quarters for his daring to innovate, by 
 mere authority on ail tht; iioly brethren ? Did he say, I am Christ's 
 vicar — chief of the apostles, — the supreme head of the church — I hold 
 the keys of the kingdom of heaven ; and do you demand of me, why / 
 should act thus" ?! Never thus, spoke Peter. He did not assume any 
 thing : but tells the matter over, and shows how God had opened the 
 door of faith to the Gentiles ; " and what was I," ho reasons, " that I 
 should withstand (iod V Ought 1 to have stood up and said to the 
 Gentiles, you shall not enter the kingdom of the Messiah, nor be en- 
 rolled amongst the children of God] — In the 11th chapter of the Acts 
 of the apostles, we have a full exposition of the groundless piolension 
 of his successors, in the details of this case from the lips of the apos- 
 tle himself. A third instance of the entire absence of all such vicars 
 in the primitive church, appears in the '* council held at Jerusalem." 
 So the bishop's party designate it, and for the sake of argument, let it 
 be a ronnril. 
 
 It was not railed by Peter the pope, nor was it a council of the 
 whole world; but of two or three churches. Well, they met. Who 
 was president] Neither the pope nor his legates. Peter is not in the 
 chair; but on the floor. He spoke first, as he was always accustomed 
 to do: but did he dictate the co\irse to be pursiied? No. Had he the 
 honor of drafting or submitting the decrees] He had not. He arose 
 I 13
 
 98 DEBATK 0.\ THE 
 
 and spoke to the assembly, and told what God had done by him among 
 the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas, also on the floor, then stated what 
 the liord had done by them amon^r the Gentiles, and when they had 
 done, James arose to present his views, "il/y sentence is''' says he, 
 " that we ought to write so and so to the Gentiles." In his views they 
 all acquiesced. They do not say in this letter, "it seemed good to 
 Peter!" No, " it seemed good to «s." Indeed, if any was pope in 
 this assembly, it was James: not Peter. All the popes of Rome as 
 successors of Peter, are therefore not only unscriptural ; but anti-scrip- 
 tural. 
 
 Again, and stronger still. In Gal. 1st chap, we are told of a cer- 
 tain controversy between Paul and Peter, — not about faith, nor moral- 
 it)'; but about expediency. Paul never would have related this mat- 
 ter : but in self-defence. There were some in Galatia that regarded 
 him as a sub-apostle, not equal to those who had been companions of 
 the Lord during his public ministry. In self-defence, he alRrms that, 
 in conversations with ihe pil/ars, as some called Peter and James and 
 John — three of the oldest apostles — he did not receive a new idea. So 
 far from being dependant on Peter, or inferior to him, he was the only 
 apostle in those days with whom Paul had the slightest dissension : 
 " for," says he, " after Peter came down to Antioch 1 withstood him to 
 the face, for he was to be blamed: for before certain persons came from 
 James, he did eat with the Gentiles; but when they were come, he 
 withdrew and separated from ihem, fearing the Jews. And the other 
 Jews dissembled likewise with him, insomuch that Barnabas was car- 
 ried away with their dissimulation. Seeing that they walked not up- 
 rightly, I said to Peter in the presence of them all ; " Why do you com- 
 pel the Gentiles to live as do' the Jews ]" Thus Paul reproved the 
 head of the church, his father, pope Peter, in the presence of all the 
 brethren for a sort of temporizing expediency in its practical details, 
 squinting at dissimulation. All these facts show how contrary to the 
 doctrine and facts of the sacred writings are the assumptions of 
 popery. 
 
 A word or two from the last will and testament of the apostle Peter. 
 Being far advanced in years he writes two letters containing his last 
 advice to the brethren. In the first he associates himself with the el- 
 ders of the Jewish church, and claims no other eminence than that of 
 fellow elder, and as such exhorts them to feed the flock of God wil- 
 lingly. In the second letter, he wills, that the brethren addressed, 
 "should, after his decease, be mindful of the commandment of ms, the 
 apostles of the Lord and Savior." Thus, with his last words, he dis- 
 claims every attribute of ofiicial supremacy. He is known only in the 
 New Testament, as an apostle, either from his own words simply, or 
 those of Paul, or from any other circumstance, which in the history of 
 the church is recorded from Pentecost to the end of the New Testa- 
 ment. I shall leave other scriptures for the calls of my opponent, and 
 the occasion. 
 
 I now proceed to show that as there is no" foundation in scripture, 
 so there is none in fact, nor in reason, for the papal supremacy. I 
 have shown, that it wants />o«Vzi'e proof — that it is built on inference — 
 that this inference is not found in the premises — and that other scrip- 
 tural facts and documents preclude the possibility of such an inference. 
 
 We have emphatically stated, that the first point is to establish the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELTGIOX. 99 
 
 office. If there is no office, there can he no officer. But my friend the 
 hishop's system is still more at fault, for if he could prove (what he 
 never will) that there was such an office ; still he has to prove that 
 Peter was the first officer. — That Peter was that officer is as cardinal 
 a point to his system, as that the papal office had been set up by Jesus 
 Christ. The Scriptures are perfectly )nute on that point ! What says 
 church history % It is only inferred that Peter ever ivas in Rome! It 
 is only probable. Barronius only says it is probable he had a see 
 there : he does not moot that question. There is not a single word in 
 all antiquity which positively asserts that Peter was ever bishop of Rome, 
 or was ever in Rome. The gentleman quoted Ircnajus. Can he quote 
 the original 1 I affirm that it does not exist : and even the copy from 
 which he read was not found for centuries after Irenaeus wrote. But 
 admit it to be genuine. I affirm that Irenaeue no where asserts, that Pc 
 tcr was bishop of Rome. If neither he nor his contemporaries assert it, 
 what is the authority of Grotius, or Casaubon, or Usher or such mod- 
 ern authors ? ! It proves nothing. The assertion of my present opponent 
 is worth as much as that of any man who has lived for a thousand years, 
 to prove an event which happened a thousand years before he was 
 born. 
 
 The bishop and his friend the editor of the Catholic paper and at 
 least fifteen hundred citizens heard me lecture when last in the city; 
 and yet, so faithless is tradition, that I have seen it stated in a print 
 of this city — in a Roman Catholic Telegraph, too, that I had asserted 
 as a proposition to be proved, " that Charles Carroll, of Carrollton was 
 not a Roman Cntholic /" — words that never fell from my lips or pen. 
 If then tradition cannot be kept here for a single week, in this day of 
 light and knowledge, and good faith, how can you respect and believe 
 traditions descending through ages of darkness and superstition 1 — 
 why bring up men from the remote corners of the earth, who lived 
 more than a century after the time in question, to tell us their hearsays 
 or the rumors of pant ages- 
 
 I have affirmed, that there is no document to prove that Peter was 
 ever bishop of Rome. My friend disputes this point; we are then at 
 issue, and this is a vital point. Let him then meet me upon it, and 
 decide the controversy. Irenaeus says not, that either Peter or Paul 
 was bishop of Rome ; but, " over that church that was planted by Peter 
 and Paul sat Linus." True, the inference is, that Peter and Paul must 
 have been at Rome; if not, how believe that the oluirch was jilanted 
 by thernl But the c.hurcii at Rome 7U'ver was plunled by them. The 
 faith of the Romans was known through all the earth when Paul wrote 
 his letter to them, and at that time ho had never been in that city. The 
 proposition is therefore not true; and Ircnasus, if he wrote so, wrote 
 on erroneous tradition, and is not worthy of credit. Admit, for argu- 
 ment sake, that we take the testimony of the fathers on the succession, 
 which are we to believe 1 They tell us stories irreconcilably dif- 
 ferent. The gentleman trium))haiitly held up a map, as if there were 
 some hidden virtue in it, and said lie could sp(!ak \\\mw it till dooms- 
 day. I have also a map here, which will prove that his map can 
 prove nothing without a tongue in it; and if holding up this map be- 
 fore you could convince you, I should soon carry the point. Bellar- 
 mine admits, that the fathers contradict each other on the succession of 
 the first popes. A phalanx of authors can be adduced to prove tiiat the
 
 100 DEBATE ON XnE 
 
 fathers are not unanimous upon any one point of importance, on that 
 or any other dofrma of tlic papacy. 
 
 Divine authority canuot exist, but in the holy oracles : against any 
 other pretended infallible standard, all men should protest. The 
 fathers agreed in bearing testimony to the scriptures, as far as they 
 individually knew them ; hut their unanimous consent on any thing 
 else has not yet been found. 
 
 Justin Martyr, for example, proves my interpretation of the 16th 
 ch. Matthew, on the roch. He is one of the primitive fathers. He 
 gives substantially the sanie views of that whole passage as I 
 have adduced here. Now it is impossible for my opponent to find a 
 unanimous consent of the fathers with Iiim, as I have Justin Martyr, 
 of the second century, and many others, with me. My standing argu- 
 ment, on the consent of the fathers, is this: 
 
 I find many of the fathers unequivocally agreeing with me. These, 
 therefore, must express the unanimous consent, if there be any ; for it can- 
 not be unanimous loilhout them. Now, if there be no unanimous consent, 
 the Bomanists build upon a false foundation ,- and if there be, they build 
 on a false foundation ; for wc have that consent, not they. 
 
 But this unanimous consent fails in the succession. Admitting that 
 Peter was first bishop of Rome, no living man can tell whether Linus 
 or Clement was the second bishop of Rome. The ancients do nob 
 agree upon that point. Tertullian makes Clement second bishop, and 
 others make Linus. I have a chart, in Eusebius, which differs from 
 his own history in various points. I have other charts and indexes 
 that place the bishops of Rome in a dilTcrent order. Eusebius does 
 not place Peter first; nor do any of the fathers. He places Linus first, 
 then Clitus, then Clement. Another tells us, that Peter was first, then 
 Linus, tlien Clement. A fourth, perhaps, on the authority of the last» 
 places Peter first and Clement second. — [Time expired.} 
 
 Half past 10 o'chcl; .i. M. 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 It is well, beloved friends, to keep our eyes upon the polar star, 
 when once we have embarked upon the sea of controversy. The 
 polar star of this question, is the attempted disproof, by my learned 
 friend, of the Roiuan Catholic claim, to be the holy, apostolic, catholic 
 church. He was pledged to show her to be an apostacy from the only 
 true church. Has he proved this ] Is there one intelligent man in 
 this assembly prepared to answer this question in the afiSrmativel 
 I asked, from what church was she an apostacy ? He told us that she 
 had apostatized in the year 1051. But he has not yet told us what 
 or where was the one true holy and apostolic cliurch from wliifh she 
 seceded. There was a good reason for it: no other catholic church 
 existed at the epoch indicated, but ours, the Roman Catholic. We 
 •were then taken to the year 250, or some- time thereabout. These 
 were indefinite words ; and I ask again what and where was the true 
 church from which she apostatized in 250 ? Has ho informed you 1 
 we were referred to the Novatians — and a Protestant church historiaa 
 Mosheim, tells us — 
 
 [Mr. Campbell here called Bishop Purcell to order as not speaking 
 to the point; the moderators decided that he was in order and he pro- 
 ceeded.] The gentleman cannot confuse me by these interruptions.
 
 ROHAN CATHOLIC EELIGION. 101 
 
 My eye is on the star. I say, that Mosheim, a Protestant ecclesiasti- 
 cal historian tells us that the Novatians embraced essential errors. I 
 have quoted from that historian, for this sect and all other prominent 
 sects, to the beirinning' of the 16th centurj'. They taught some doc- 
 trines which Catholics, and some, which Protestants hold. They 
 taught some errors which Catholics and Protestants agree to reject — 
 they taught disorganizing doctrines, which armed the civil power 
 both Catholic and Protestant against them — and these doctrines, Ca- 
 tholics and Protestants mutually abhor. They were not then united, 
 pure, or apostolic. They were not the church of Christ. The ques- 
 tion then reverts upon us — which was the church of Christ, from 
 ■which the Roman Catholic church separated in the 3d century 1 
 
 I now come at once to the last speech of the gentleman. — I have 
 already agreed that this controversy is resolvible into two or three 
 grand principles — and by the discussion of these we may succeed 
 in ascertaining their ulterior consequences. If true that Christ has 
 established a head of the Church on earth, it follows that Ave must 
 recognize that liead. So far we are right. If Peter was made that 
 head, we are right. If Peter was to have successors, we are right. 
 If that succession was to last to the end of time, we are right, for 
 we hold these propositions to be irrefragable. If on the contrary, 
 these propositions could be satisfactorily proved to be untrue, the 
 Catholics would be wrong. 
 
 I have proved the first of these, viz. that Peter was made the head 
 of the church, by Christ, from scripture. And what has my friend 
 discovered to weaken the force of the numerous and strong texts I 
 have adduced, — the rock, the keys, the feeding of the lambs, and of 
 the sheep whom the lambs are wont to follow, the prayer of Christ 
 that Peter's faith should never fail, the charge given liim by Christ 
 to confirm his brethren, his confession of the divinity of Christ be- 
 fore the other apostles, and the Blessedness pronounced on him for 
 that confession by Clirist, the deference shewn him — the poor illiterate 
 fisherman, by Paul, imbued with the subiimest lessons of the Law at 
 the feet of fjamaliel, foe. foe. 7 Why In- says : " Peter, lovcst thou me 
 more than these fish !" 
 
 My friends, I know not how to treat this interpretation seriously. 
 But since the gentleman is so curious an interpreter, let ns sec if the 
 text will bear him out. After the miracle of the draught of fishes, 
 the apostles, at Christ's invitation, proceeded to some (tistance from 
 their nets and barks, for the purpose of dining. It is natural to sup- 
 pose they selected, for dinner, no more of the fish they had taken, 
 than they would probably eat. ('an my friend say that after they had 
 dined there were any f>f the cooked fish remaining? Tlirre might have 
 been some bones left on the table ; but would Christ puinl to these 
 fish bones, and say, Peter, lovest thou more than llicsr? What a ques- 
 tion for (Christ to ask his leading disciple! Surely such an inter- 
 pretation is absurd. IJiit what is the voice of antiquity 1 IMy friend 
 saya that Justin brarH him out in bis inter|)relalion. \Vill iriy friend 
 point out the passage in that father's works ? Will he say that it is the 
 principal sensr-, the sense that father approves ? I j)ledge myself he will 
 not pretend to do so while refutation is near. Now if scripture is so 
 very clear, and this meaning as obvious as Mr. C. supposes, is it 
 not strange that this light should beam upon us to day for the first 
 1 2
 
 102 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 time 1 'riie gentleman charges me with having dared to change the 
 gender of the word signifyinfr ihesc, from neuter to masculine. Does 
 he not know that the word Tcwrarv is both masculine and neuter? It is 
 generally applied to persons, though I do not deny that it may be ap- 
 plied to things. The Greek therefore leaves us as much in the dark 
 as ever. 
 
 We find a ])arallol passage in the new Testament. " He that loveth 
 father and mother >unrc than mc is not worthy of me." Matth. x. 37. 
 Here the words are Cme i/ui (more than me), i/ut is in the accusative 
 case — Tovrm is in the genitive case. But, my friends, this has nothing 
 to do with the question at issue ; it does not make for or against my 
 argument, whether we adopt tlie natural, or the gross interpretation. 
 Christ said to Peter, " lovest thou «ie." He demands an assurance of 
 his faithful attachment. Peter three times replies in the affirmative, 
 and thrice the command is repeated to him, " feed my lambs," " feed 
 my sheep." The argument is entirely independent of either con- 
 struction referred to. Hence I maintain that Peter was established, 
 head of the church by Jesus (^hrist. The " rock," the " keys," the 
 prayer, the prophecy of the place and manner of Peter's death, which 
 we read in the same chapter, all prove it. 
 
 The gentleman says that a doctrine should be so clear, that it could 
 not possibly be contested. This is really too soft for a man of Mr. 
 C.'s strong mind. What is there so clear that it could not possibly be 
 contested. Does not the universe tell as clearly as Genesis, that God 
 created the heavens and the earth, and is not that contested 1 What 
 doctrine more clearly revealed in the bible, or more important than 
 the divinity of Christ? and is not that contested? and by one of the 
 most learned societies of christians in the United States, I mean the 
 Unitarians. They read the bible and they think it impiety and blas- 
 phemy to call Jesus Christ God ! 
 
 It was essential in the Jewish institution that there should be a high 
 priest. If the old institution was a type of the new, where is the 
 anti-type ? And if the headship of the high priest of the Jews dero- 
 gated not from the authority of God the Father, who was pleased to 
 be their special ruler, neither does the headship of the pope derogate 
 from the supreme authority of God the Son, Jesus Christ, who acquir- 
 ed the church by his blood and established Peter its visible head on 
 earth, to exercise the office during his natural life, and by his succes- 
 sors for ever. 
 
 My friend flies from scripture to tradition, and from a father of the 
 early age to a modern historian. I will pledge myself to this en- 
 lightened assembly that the supremacy of Peter and of Peter's suc- 
 cessors in the Roman see can be abundantly attested by an appeal to 
 tradition : and I may here observe that Baronius has been misrepre- 
 sented. He does not say it is not improbable that Peter fixed his see at 
 Rome — of this he knew there was no doubt ; but that it was not im- 
 probable he fixed his see there by the express command of Christ, 
 which is, the intelligent hearer will perceive, quite a different propo- 
 sition. Peter acted as the other apostles did, under the guidance of in- 
 spiration, in the choice of the scene of his pastoral toils; but Baronius 
 thinks it not improbable that Christ eocpressly commanded him to se- 
 lect Rome for his — There he could " teach all nations." Mr. C. 
 asserts that for a thousand years there is not a voice heard to attest
 
 ROMAN CATHOUC RELIGION. 103 
 
 this fact. My friends, not one voice, but five Iiundred attest it. There 
 is one loud chorus of testimony among the fathers and historians, 
 giving almost universal consent to the doctrine. Some obscure indi- 
 viduals may have doubted, or denied it in late years. They are but 
 motes on the surface of the overwhelming stream of testimony. Again 
 my friend went back to the bible. He read of the high priest — but he 
 cannot open the bible without seeing his own refutation written there — 
 almost the first words that struck my ears were, the dresses and anoint- 
 ing of the priests. Where are such things done among Protestants 1 
 Do they not make void the scriptures 1 Anointing the clergy and the 
 sick, — commanded by the bible — rejected by Protestants — superseded 
 by the fashions of the day ! Again : Aaron was separated that he should 
 bless and sanctifj* — and yet if the pope bless or sanctify, he is an im- 
 pious assumer of what belongs to God alone !! 
 
 The case of Korah, Dathan and Abiram was mentioned. God re- 
 ally appears to me to extort from the adversaries of his church the 
 most striking proof of her authority, vindicated in the Type, from 
 the sacrilegious contradictions of the schismatics of the old law. 
 The ground opened and swallowed them up ! So have all the sects, 
 that in the early ages opposed the church, perished. Th« grave has 
 hidden their guilt from the earth, too happy if they bear not its pen- 
 alty in the world that expands beyond the grave ! Again 250 priests 
 perished for opposing the ordinance of God ! the ecclesiastical guide 
 he had appointed ! 
 
 My friend asks, if the headship of Peter and his successors were 
 as certainly divine as the high priesthood of the old law, would it not 
 have been established by proof as plain? Why, he emphatically de- 
 manded, cannot the Roman pontiff, like Aaron, shew his authority by 
 an equally convincing miracle *? My friends, I take the gentleman at 
 his word. He that has eyes to see let him see. Has not God wrought 
 a similar miracle — I will fearlessly say — a far more splendid miracle, 
 to attest the preeminence of the see of Peter 1 Has not the night of 
 Mahommedanism and infidelity thrown its sable pall over the once 
 flourishing churches of Africa and Asia 1 Has not the bright light of 
 the gospel become extinct in the most celebrated of the sees founded 
 by the other apostles — Crete, Corinth, Ephcsus, Antioch, Alexandria, 
 Philippi, Jerusalem 1 Where is the hymn of praise to Christ inton- 
 ed, the voice of pure confession heard, the tabernacle of the tes- 
 timony seen in any of these famous churches, where St. Paul had 
 formed such a multitude of adorers in spirit and in truth 1 which he 
 Tisited with so much solicitude, prayed for with so much fervor, and 
 loved with so much tenderness. Returning to visit these churclies, 
 not on the following day as Moses did the rods of the twelve triiies, 
 but after eighteen himdred years, we see that the rod of Aaron, the 
 church formed by the high priest appointed by Jesus Christ in the 
 New Law, has b\idded ami blossomed, and produced fruit of which 
 all the nations havo participated, while the churches formed by the 
 other apostles have been stricken with a melancholy sterility, and 
 have utterly withered ! 'I"he murmuring of the children of Israel 
 against Moses and Aaron ceased when they beheld the prodigy rela- 
 ted in the book of Numbers ; is it too much to expert that we will be 
 leas insensible to an efjually autbenlic declaration in favor of tho 
 church and pontiff, the special objects of the divine protection and 
 care?
 
 104 DEBATE 0:V THE 
 
 When Pius, VI. died at Valence, in France, it was said that quick 
 lime was thrown on his corpse, that no vestige of it might remain, and 
 infidelity boasted that Christianity was buried in the same grave with 
 its pontiff. But a successor was soon beheld to ascend into the chair 
 of Peter — alas ! he too, is doomed to suffer contumely for the name of 
 Jesus. He is seized with violence, by a ruthless soldiery, and car- 
 ried off from Rome, an exile and a prisoner, to Fontainebleau. The 
 doom of his persecutor is written : he is precipitated from the giddy 
 heights of his ambition, and the meek, but invincible heir of Peter's 
 sacred power, contrary to all human foresight, is reinstated by a Pro- 
 testant government, by 30,000 Protestant bayonets, in the peaceful ex- 
 ercise of his duties, as the chief pastor of the Catholic world. Eng- 
 land, with all thy faults I love thee still. You are Protestants, but 
 you can be just. Rome, changeless amid change, Rome, free among 
 the dead, unaffected by earthly revolutions, by earthly conquests un- 
 subdued, why have the nations raged, ond the people devised vaia 
 things against thee ] The Lord is thy protector still. He hath won- 
 derfully sustained thee, amidst all the vicissitudes of human institu- 
 tions. " He that dwelleth in heaven," to use the language of the 
 Psalmist, " hath laughed at them that stood up against thee, and the 
 Lord shall deride them." My friend would call it ^^ morbid" in England, 
 to sympathise with the Catholics, as he has called your generous sym- 
 pathies fdr your persecuted fellow-citizens ; but it is not morbid, it ia 
 magnanimous, it is just to confess an error, to abjure an unfounded 
 prejudice, and to side with the wrongfully oppressed. 
 
 I quoted scripture to prove that Christ was the corner stone, on 
 which the whole building securely rests — and that Peter is the rock of 
 the foundation, deriving whatever strength it has thus exhibited from 
 Christ. There is no contradiction in this. I am compelled to follow the 
 zigzag course of my friend. The reader of the printed controversy will 
 be at no loss to bring together the diverging rays of evidence and to find 
 my answers to objections, where they may be, apparently out of place. 
 
 There is no distinction of persons in Syriac. In Greek it is once 
 TTttrfo;, and again 5r;)T/)a — but this change of gender is merely to 
 avoid a repetition of the same word in the same sentence. This is 
 reason sufficient, to account for the difference. I give my friend thanks 
 for proving that Peter was not Satan. It is the correct reading, and 
 therefore, I agree with his interpretation of the text; when Christ saya 
 to Peter, " get thee behind me Satan," that is you, who differ from 
 me on this particular subject. This text has been much abused. 
 
 Again : Peter did think, that he loved .Tesus more than the rest, and 
 Christ knew that he did. Do you remember, my friends, the scene 
 which took place shortly before the Savior suffered ? When he told his 
 apostles, with a holy melancholy on his sacred heart, that one of them 
 would betray him — that the shepherd should be stricken, and the sheep 
 dispersed ? Ah ! is there not something in the noble hearted enthusi- 
 asm of Peter, which is at once the cause of his offence and its pallia- 
 tion ? " Although all shall be scandalized in thee, yet not I." This 
 proves an impulsiveness, an ardor, and a strength of attachment to the 
 person of Christ, which Peter, too confidently it may be, but yet sin- 
 cerely, believed to be greater than the other disciples felt for their di- 
 vine master. 
 
 Jesus knew this, but he warns him not to be presumptuous. " Amen,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC REMGION. 105 
 
 I say to thee, to-day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, 
 thou Shalt deny me thrice," Mark xiv. 30. From this, and other texts, 
 Peter's ardor, and the Savior's knowledge of his confidence in his own 
 steadfastness are perfectly plain. Why, then, deny them both 1 
 
 I quoted the vulgate, not through ignorance of Greek, on which I 
 have shewn as much knowledge as my friend; but not to boast of a 
 little learning on the words, riAw-v tou7*.v. The Greek, the Latin, and the 
 English, as verbal criticism is necessary to elucidate the meaning of 
 the text, are by a singular coincidence, in this case, equally ambigu- 
 ous. How can an unlettered Protestant understand the text? 
 
 The popes do not claim to be lords, spiritual, and temporal. But 
 very few of them exercised any temporal power beyond the limits of 
 their own principality, where they rule, as Gibbon told you, by the 
 voice of a free people whom they have redeemed from slavery. Their 
 throne is established in the affections of their people, who, with rea- 
 son, prefer their pontiff's mild sway to kingly usurpation — the crosier, 
 to the sceptre. The popes have never taken the title of kings of Rome. 
 I can shew from Waddington and Southey, both Protestant histori- 
 ans of the church, that through centuries of darkness and doubt and 
 civil commotion, while the Turk was ravaging the southern regions of 
 Europe and the northern hordes were pouring down in swarms from 
 their ice-bound regions, desolating the blooming fields, and destroying 
 all that was useful and beautiful of the works of civilization, the pope 
 was the only savior of Europe, from their barbarian ravages. He 
 gave to science and to letters the only refuge which could then have 
 availed them — the refuge of an altar — and the now calumniated monks 
 who reproduced in more auspicious times, the intellectual ray. They 
 handed us the works of the sages, and heroes, the poets, historians 
 and oratorS of Greece and Rome across the isthmus of the " dark ages" 
 60 called. They preserved for us a better gift — the Bible. 
 
 Benefits conferred by the church. — " Yet should we be very unjust to the Roman 
 Catholic church, if we bhould allow it to be supposed, that she opened no recep- 
 tacles, for the nurture of true excellence; that in her ecncral institutions, espe- 
 cially in her earlier age, she has overlooked the iiioraT necessities of man — the 
 truth is far otherwise. We have repeatedly observed, how commonly, in seasons 
 of barbarism, religion was employed in supplying the defects of civil government 
 aad diffusing consolation and security. The lYuce of God mitigated the fury 
 of private warfare, by limiting the hours o( vengeance, and interposing a space 
 for the operation of justice and humanity. The nauie of the church was associated 
 with peace; aiid it was a prouder position, than when she trampled on the necks 
 of kings, (what she never did by the bye as I shall prove.) The emancipation of 
 the Serfs was another cause, equally sacred, in which her exertions were rc- 
 peatetlly emnloyed. In her jnlerff rence in the concerns of monarchs and nations, 
 she frequently appeared as the advocate of the weak, and the adversary of arbi- . 
 trary power. Kven the much abused law of Asylum served through a long pe- 
 riod, as a check on b;u-onial oppression, ralher than an encouragement to crime. 
 
 The duty of charity, during the better ages of the church, was by no means 
 neglected by the secular clergy, while it was the practice and office of the mo- 
 nastic establishments. And even fh<: discipline, so strictly inculcated by the 
 earlier prelates, however arbitrary in its exercise, and jieniicious in its ahii.te, 
 was not unprofitable in arresting the first steps, and restraining tlif earliest dis- 
 positions to sin. Confession and penance, and the awful censures of Ihe church, 
 when dispensed with discretion, must have been potent instruini ntx for the im- 
 provement of uncivilized society." Wiiddinirton's f'hunh Mist. luirre 5-lfi, New 
 Vork edit. \m',. ^ ^ ^ 
 
 We now come to the word Kkx^h (cleros,) which the gentleman 
 says means lot and not clergy. f,ot does mean the whole people of 
 
 14
 
 106 DrUATK ON THK 
 
 GocJ — rlernry and laity. Now if tlie apostle could not lord it over the 
 vhole ])eople, he could iiotlord it over the clergy. 'Die pope does not lord 
 it over the consciences of either clergy or laity — he believes as they do. 
 
 'J'he apostles sent Peter and .John to Samaria. Peter and John 
 probably offered themselves for the early mission — Peter, to whom 
 God had given superior power — and John, who had leaned on the bo- 
 som of Jesus at supper — both pre-eminent apostles, to confirm the peo- 
 ple of Samaria. 
 
 No man can read the New Testament attentively without seeing, at 
 almost every page, the evidence of Peter's divinely appointed and ac- 
 knowledged primacy ; or the history of the church, without every 
 where discovering the primacy of his successors. Not one council 
 has been received that the pope did not approve. His approbation is 
 in the last resort, the only certain test of a council's orthodoxy. 
 
 Peter spoke first in the council at Jerusalem. Peter was justly re- 
 primanded by Paul. The very fact of Paul mentioning his boldness 
 on this occasion, confirms the fact of Peter's supremacy. So did Ire- 
 neeus remonstrate with pope Victor in the controversy of the Quarto- 
 decimans — about the time of observing the Easter — and the pope's 
 sentiments prevailed — although Irenanis' dissuasive did good. So did 
 the controversy about re-baptization terminate between St. Cyprian 
 and the popes Cornelius and Stephen. The popes' decision was every 
 where received. 
 
 Now Paul himself did the same for which he blamed Peter. He 
 knew and prized the freedom with which Christ had made him free, 
 yet he says, " If meat scandalize my brother, I will not eat it forever." 
 
 He vainly persists in saying there is no good ground for asserting that 
 Peter was ever in Rome, after all the proof I have adduced. Here is 
 Robinson's Calrnet, a Protestant dictionary of the Bible, a stan'dard work 
 in Protestant libraries. Calraet was a Iloman Catholic. He was a prodigy 
 of learning and ancient literature — and Robinson, a Protestant divine, 
 thought he could not furnish a better gift to the public than this book. 
 
 " It the reader wishes to see the evidence from antiquity, on which Peter's 
 having been at Rome rests, he will find it fully set forth by Lardner, who con- 
 cludes his inquiry as follows : This is the general, uncontradicted, disinterest- 
 ed testimony of ancient writers in the several parts of the world, Greeks, Lat- 
 ins, Syrians. As our Lord's prediction concerning the death of Peter, is record- 
 ed in one of the four Gospels, it is very likely that christians would observe the 
 accomplishment of it, which must have been in some place. And about this 
 place, there is no diflerence among christian writers of ancient times. Never 
 any other place was named besides Rome; nor did any other city, ever glory in 
 the martyrdom of Peter. It is not for our honor, nor for our interests, either 
 Bs christians or Protestants, to deny the truth of events ascertained by early and 
 .well attested tradition. If any make an ill use (as /le calls it) of such facts, we 
 are not accountable for it. We are not, from a dread of such abuses, to over- 
 throw the credit of all history, the consequence of which would be fatal." Rob- 
 inson's Calmet.p. 74L 
 
 The gentleman has said that not one voice has attested the fact of 
 the succession of the Roman see for a thousand years. I have quoted 
 Eusebius, a Greek father of the fourth century, translated by a Pro- 
 testant minister, a splendid work. Here is a list of 29 bishops who 
 sat in the chair of St. Peter, all of whom he names in the body of the 
 work; also the succession in the churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, 
 Rome, Laodicea, &c. 
 
 Of St. Peter. 
 
 (Simon Magus) " entering the city of Rome, by the co-operation of that ma-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC BELIGION. 107 
 
 lignant spirit which had fixed its seat there, his attempts v.ere soon so far suc- 
 cessful, as to be honored as a god, with the erection of a statue by the inhabitants 
 of that city. This, however, did not continue long; for immediately under the 
 reign of Claudius, by the benign and gracious providence of God, Peter, that 
 powerful and great apostle, who, by his courage took the lead of all the rest, was 
 conducted to Nome against this pest of mankind. He, like a noble commander 
 ofGod, fortified with divine armor, bore the precious merchandise of the re- 
 vealed light from the East to those in the West, announcing the liglit itself, 
 and salutary docrine of the soul, the proclamation of the kingdom of God." — 
 Book II. chap. 14, page 64. 
 
 Of Linus. 
 
 "After the martyrdom of Paul and Peter, Linus was the first that received the 
 episcopate at Rome." — Book III. chap. 2, page 82. 
 
 Anaci.etds. 
 
 "After Vespasian had reigned about ten years, he was succeeded by his son 
 Titus; in the second year of whose reign, Linus, bishop of the church of Rome, 
 who had held the olBce about twelve years, transferred it to Anacletus." — Chap. 
 13, page 100. 
 
 CLE.ATENT. 
 
 " In the twelfth year of the same reign, (Domitian's,) after Anacletus had 
 been bishop of Rome twelve years, he was succeeded by Clement."— Chap. 15, 
 page 100. 
 
 EUARESTUS. 
 
 " In the third year of the above mentioned reign (Trajan's,) Clement, bishop 
 of Rome, committed the episcopal charge to Euarestus." — Chap. 34, page 120. 
 
 Alex.\xder. 
 
 " About the twelfth year of the reign of Trajan, after Euarestus had 
 
 completed the eighth year as bishop of Rome, he was succeeded in the episcopal 
 of&ce by Alexander." — Book TV. chap. 1, page 128. 
 
 XVSTUS. 
 
 " But in the year of the same (Adrian's) reign, Alexander, bishop of Rome, 
 died, having completed the tenth year of his ministrations. Xystus was his suc- 
 cessor." — CTiap. 4, page 130. 
 
 Telespiiorus and Hyginus. 
 
 " In the first year of this (Antonine's) reign, and in the eleventh j-ear of his 
 episcopate, Telesphorus departed tliis life, and was succeeded in the charge of 
 the Roman church by Hyginus." — Chap. 10, page 137. 
 
 PiUS. 
 " But Hyginus dying after the fourth year of his office, Pius received the 
 episcopate." — Chap. 11, page 138. 
 
 Amcetus. 
 "And Pius dying at Rome in the fifteenth year of his episcopate, the church 
 there was governecl by Anicetus." — Ibid, page 138. 
 
 .'ioTER. 
 '• If was in the eighth year of the above mentioned reign, viz. that of Verus, 
 that Anicetus, who held the episcopate of Rome for eleven years, was succeeded 
 by Soter." — Chap. 19, page 156. 
 
 ErXUTHERUS. 
 " Soter, bishop of Rome, died after having held the episcopate eight years. Ha 
 was succeeded by Elcuthcrus, the twelfth in order from the apostles." — Book V. 
 Prelim, page 168. 
 
 Victor. 
 " In thn tenth yrar of the reign of C'ommoduf", Eleutherus, who had held the 
 episcopate for thirteen years, was succeeded by Victor." — Chap. 22, page 206. 
 
 Zephyrinus. 
 "But after this author (Victor,) had superintended the rhurrh, Zepliyrinus was 
 appointed his successor about the ninth year of the reign of Severus." — Chap. 
 28, page 214. 
 
 Cai-i.isthus and Urpanus. 
 " In the first yj-ar of the latter (Antonine's n ign,) Zephyrinus the bishop of 
 Rome, departed thin life, ofter having rhargc of the church eigiitcen years. He 
 was succeeded in the episcopate by Cullittliui, who survived bim five years, and 
 left the church to Urbanus.— Chap. 21, page 242.
 
 108 DKBATE OX THE 
 
 PONTIANUS. 
 
 " Whilst this was the state of tilings, Urban, wlio liad been bishop of Rome 
 eightyears, was succeeded by Poiitiaiius." — Chap. 23, page 243. 
 
 Anteuos and Fabianus. 
 "Gordian succeeded IMaxiimis in tlic sovereignty of Rome, when Pontifinus 
 who had held the episcopate six years, was succeeded by Anteros in the church 
 of Rome; he also is succeeded by P'libianus." — Chap. 29, page 248. 
 
 Cornelius. 
 " Decius .... raised a persecution against the church, in which Fabianus 
 suffered martyrdom, and was succeeded as bishop of Rome by Cornelius." — 
 Chap. 39, page 254. 
 
 Lucius and Stephen, 
 "After Cornelius had held the episco|>al otVice at Rome about three years, he 
 was succeeded by Lucius, but the latter did not hold the office quite eight 
 months, when dying he transferred it to Stephen." — Book VIL chap. 2, page 
 
 Stephen and Xystus IL 
 " But after Stephen had held the episcopal office two years, he was succeeded 
 by Xystus." — Chap. 5, page 273, 
 
 DioNYsrus. 
 " Xystus had been bishop of Rome eleven years, when he waa succeeded by 
 Dionysius."— Chap. 27, page 302. 
 
 Feijx. 
 " Dionysius, who had been bishop of Rome for niue years, was succeeded by 
 Felix."— Chap. 30, page 308. 
 
 EurycHiANTjs, Caius, and Marcelt mus. 
 *' At this time Felix, having held the episcopate at Rome five years, was suc- 
 ceeded by Eutychianus, and he did not hold the office quite ten months, when he 
 left his place to be occupied by Caius of our own day. Caius, also, presided 
 about fitteen years, when he was succeeded by Marcellinus." — Chap. 32, page 310. 
 
 Miltiades. 
 
 " Constantine Augustus, to Miltiades bishop of Rome." — Book X. chap. 5. 
 page 429. 
 
 i need only refer to what I have read from this authentic historian 
 for splendid and indisputable proof. Here is the succession equally 
 plain in all the churches, but longest hi Rome. Thence it has been 
 faithfully noticed, and regularly perpetuated in an uninterrupted chain 
 of pontiffs down to the present chief pastor, auspiciously presiding 
 over all the church. 
 
 Now, my friend, in the name of God what is to become of this con- 
 troversy, when testimony like this is overlooked] And to close the 
 testimony of Eusebius who has embodied that of the preceding ages, 
 so as to leave no doubt, that the same identical doctrines, the present 
 organization, orders and sacraments of the Catholic church were those 
 of the first ages of Christianity, and heresy too the same then that it now 
 is. I crave your attention for one of the most instructive chapters 
 that could possibly be read on a subject of such absorbing interest to 
 the Christian. 
 
 OJ" J^'ovalus, his manners and hahils, and his heresy. 
 
 About this time appeared Novatus (j\ovati;in) a presbyter of the church of 
 Rome, and a man elevated with haughtiness against these (tiiat had fallen), as if 
 there was no room for theni to hope salvation, not even, if they performed every 
 thing for a genuine and pure confession. He thus became the leader of the pe- 
 culiar heresy of those who, in the pomp of their imaginations, called themselves 
 Cathari. A ver}' large counril beiugli' Id on account of this, at which sixty in- 
 deed of the bishops, but a still greater number of prchbyters and deacons were 
 present ; the pastors of the remaining provinces, accordmg to their places, deli- 
 fcerated separately what should be done: this decree was passed by all; "That 
 Novatus, indeed, and those who so arrogantly united with him, and those that 
 Lad determined to adoptive uncharitable and most inhuman opinion of the man,
 
 KOMA?f CATHOLIC RELIGION. 109 
 
 these they considered among those that were alienated from the church; but 
 that brethren who had incurred any calamity, should be treated and healed with 
 the remedies of repentance." 
 
 There are also epistles of Cornelius, bishop of Rome, addressed to Fabius, bi- 
 shop of Antioch, which sliow the transactions of the council of Rome, as also, 
 the opinions of all those in Italy and Africa, and the regions there. Others there 
 are also written in the Roman tongue, from Cyprian, and the bishops with him in 
 Africa. In these, it is shewn that they also agree in the necessity of relieving 
 those who had fallen under severe temptations, and also in the propriety of ex- 
 communicating the author of the heresy, and all that were of his party. To 
 these is attached also an epistle from Cornelius on the decrees of the council, 
 besides others on the deeds of Novatus, from which we may add extracts, that 
 those who read the present work may know the circumstances respecting him. 
 What kind of a character IVovatus was, Cornelius informs Fabius, writing as fol- 
 lows: " But that you may know, says he, how this singular man, who formerly 
 aspired to the episcopate, and secretfy concealed within himself this precipitate 
 ambition, making use of those confessors that adhered to him from the beginning 
 as a cloak for his own folly, I will proceed to relate: Maxinius, a presbyter of 
 our church, and Urbanus, twice obtained the highest reputation for their con- 
 fessions. Sidonius also, and Celerinus, a man wlio, by the mercy of God, bore 
 every kind of torture in the most heroic maiiiKr, and, by the firmness of his own 
 faith strengthened tlie weakness of the flesh, completely worsted the adversaiy. 
 These men, therefore, as they knew him, and had well sounded his artifice and 
 duplicity, as also his perjuries and falsehoods, his dissocial and savage character, 
 returned to the holy church, and aiinouncfd all his devices and wickedness, which 
 he had for a long time dissembled within hiinself, and this too in the presence of 
 many bishops; and the same also, in the presence of many presbyters, and a 
 
 freat number of laymen, at the same time lamenting and sorrowing that they 
 ad been seduced, and had nbandoned the church for a short time, through the 
 agency of that artful and malicious beast." After a little, he further says : We 
 have seen, beloved brother, within a short time, an extraordinary conversion and 
 change in him. For this most illustrious man, and he who affirmed with the most 
 dreadful oaths, that he never aspired to the episcopate, has suddenly appeared a 
 bishop, as thrown among us by some machine. For this dogmatist, this (pre- 
 tended) champion of ecclesiastical discipline, when he attempted to seize and 
 usurp the episcopate not given him from above, selected two desperate characters 
 as his associates, to send them to some small, and that the smallest, part of Italy, 
 and from thence, by some fictitious ])l<a, to impose upon three bishops there, men 
 altogether ignorant and simple, affirming and declaring, that it was necessary for 
 them to come to Rome in all haste, that all the dissension which had there aris- 
 en might be removed through their mediation, in conjunction with the other bi- 
 •hopH. When thise men had come, being as before observed, but simple and 
 plain in discerning the artifices and villany of the wicked, and when sliut up 
 with men of the same stamp with himself, at the tenth hour, \vhcn heated with 
 wine and surfeiting, lliey forced them by a kind of shadowy and empty imposi- 
 tion of hands, to c;onfer the episcopate upon him, and which, though by no means 
 suited to him, hi: claims l^y fraud and treachery. One of tin se, not long after, re- 
 turned to his church, mourning and confessing his error, with whom also we com- 
 muned as a layman, !is all the people present interceded for )iini,and wc sent suc- 
 cessors to the other bishops, ordaining (hem in the place where they were. This 
 asjerlcr of tin; gospel then did not know that there should he but one bishop in 
 a catholic church.* ("' x»So>.ixi! iy.x>.i;Ti»y 
 
 • Th>) word ralliolir, in its Greek etymology, menns univcrgul, as wc )iBvo nomctimoa ox- 
 ptninc'l it in Ihiii trnn/ilntiiiii. It ik npiilicrl to l)in (,'liriiiliiiii, oh n iiiiiversul rhiirrh, partly 
 to riiitinKuiih it frcmi tlm nrii-ieiit rhiirrli of llif Jiwb, which wn» hinilerl, purlial, iiixl par- 
 tiriilnr in ill ihiruiioii, milijiriii iinil cuiiiilry. 'I'h'' <'hri«tian in ulxo rnllnl n uiiiviriml or 
 cnlholii' rlmrch, l>rinii«o it mint in rejnril to ilorlrini' lioM i/voil urmper, qnod vbiiine, quod 
 ab omnihut. In tin* Inllir view, whiih it kIiouIiI he well obnerved in tlie oricinnl np|iln-o- 
 lion. It i» rynonymoui Willi orlhodoi. 'J'liiii in iviileni, from the fiiit that our aulhcir tippling 
 it lo different rhiirrh''» in other pnrlii of hiii hinlory. And in the preneiit inHlunrp I ho ox- 
 prcmiun ii cenernl, « tntliotir thurrh. It in in n nenne allied lo lhi» nl«o, Ihni we nro, no 
 doubt, lo un(h'r~lanil llin till'? of our EenernI, (ralliolir) ejilNlleo. in the New TeHlamcnt. 
 They arc cat/tolic, heraunc an ronimnanl to the dorlrineii of the rliiirch in all rei(|Hr.t«, Ihcy 
 have been also universally received. In this aonie, tlio term ii nlno aynonymoua with can- 
 onical.
 
 110 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 In whirl), however, he well knew, (for how coukl he be ignorant ?) that there 
 were t'orty-six presbyters, seven deacons, seven sub-ileacons, fortv-two acuiuthi 
 (clerks,) exorcists, reailers, and janitors, in all fiUy- two ; widows, with the afflicted 
 and needy, more than firtten-hundrcd ; all which the goodness and love of (iod 
 doth support and nourish. But neither this great number, so necessary in the 
 church, nor those that by the providence of God were wealthy and opulent, toge- 
 ther with the innumerable multitude of the people, were able to recall him and 
 turn him from such a desperate and presumptuous course." And again, after these, 
 he subjoins the following: " Now let us also tell by what means and conduct he 
 had the assurance to claim the episcopate. Whether, indeed, it was because he 
 was engaged in the church from the beginning, and endured many condicts for her, 
 and encountered many and great dangers in the cause of true religion? None of all 
 this. To him, indeed, the author and instigator of his faith was Satan, who enter- 
 ed into and dwelt in him a long time. Who, aided by the exorcists, when attacked 
 with an obstinate disease, and being supposed at the point of death, was baptised 
 by aspersion, in the bed on which he lay ; if, indeed, it be proper to say that one like 
 hmi did receive baptism. But neither when he recovered from disease, did he par- 
 take of other things, which the rules of the church prescribed as a duty, norwashe 
 sealed (in confirmation) by the bishop. But as he did not obtain this, liow could he 
 obtain the Holy Spirit V And again, soon after, he says: " He denied he was a 
 presbyter, through cowardice and the love of life, in the time of persecution. For 
 when requested and exhorted by the deacons, that he should go forth from his re- 
 treat, in whichhe had imprisoned himself, and shouldcome to the relief ofthc bre- 
 thren, as far as was proper and in the power of a presbyter to assist brethren reciuir- 
 ing relief, he was so far from yielding to an}' exhortation of the deacons, that he 
 went away offended and left them. For he said that he wished to be a presbyter no 
 longer, for he was an admirer of a different philosophy." After this, he add* 
 another deed, the worst of all the man's absurdities, thus : "For having made 
 the oblation, and distributed a part to each one, whilst giving this, he compels the 
 unhappy men to swear instead of blessing ; holding the hands of the one receiv- 
 ing, with both his own, and not letting them go until he had sworn in these words, 
 for I shall repeat the very words: ' Swear to me, by the body and blood of our 
 Savior, Jesus Christ, that you will never desert me, nor turn to Cornelius.' 
 And the unhappy man is then not suflered to taste until he had first cursed him- 
 self; and instead of saying Amen, after he hael taken the bread, he says, 'I will 
 no longer return to Cornelius." And, after other matters, he again proceeds, as 
 follows : " Now,3'ou must know, that he is stripped and abandoned, the brethren 
 leaving him every day and returning to the church. He was also excommunicat- 
 ed by Moses, that blessed witness, who but lately endured a glorious and wonder- 
 ful martyrdom, and who, whilst yet among the living, seeing the audacity and 
 the folly of the man, excluded him from the communion, together with the 
 five presbyters that had cut themselves oft" from the church." At the close of the 
 epistle, he gives a list of the bishops who had come to Rome, and had discarded 
 the incorrigible disposition of Novatus; at the same time adding the names, to- 
 gether with the churches governed by each. He also mentioned those that were 
 not present at Rome, but who, by letter, assented to the decision of the former, 
 adding also the names and the jjarticular cities whence each one had written. 
 Such IS the account written by Cornelius to Fabius bishop of Antioch. — From 
 pages 263-4-5-6-7 of Eusebius' Eccles. Hist, transl. by Rev. C. F. Crus6, Book 
 vi. chap. 43. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past U, J. M. 
 Mr. Campbeli, rises — 
 
 I have some respect, my friends, not only to the audience who hear, 
 but to those who may read this discussion ; and, therefore, I wish my 
 argument to be as continuous and unbroken as possible. I could, indeed, 
 wish that my ingenious and eloquent opponent would reply to my 
 speeches in regular sequence, and thus give more of system and tenacity 
 to our debate. Before I trace his zigzag course, I wish to add to my last 
 speech a few kindred considerations. While it behooves him to prove 
 that Peter was first bishop of Rome, I am gratuitously in display of my 
 resources, as the advocate of Protestantism, rather spontaneously prov-
 
 nOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. Ill 
 
 ing a negative, or showing tliat Peter never was bishop of Rome. Two 
 considerations may be added to my remarks on this head: 1st. The 
 special commission, which he had to- the Jews as Paul had to the 
 Gentiles, precludes the idea of his here devoting himself to any por- 
 tion of the Gentile world. The "ministry of the circumcision" was 
 committed to him, and therefore not the Roman capital; but rather the 
 Syrian capital or Jerusalem should have been the place of his location. 
 2d. His commission, as apostle, precludes the idea of his being sta- 
 tioned as bishop at any one place. You cannot place Peter as bishop 
 of Rome, any more than you can make the president of the United 
 States mayor of Cincinnati. The duties of these officers are not more 
 incompatible than the duties of an apostle and a resident bishop. What 
 are the duties of the bishop's chair 1 Are they not to watch over a 
 particular diocese? What does the apostles' commission say ■? "Go 
 ye into all the world, and announce tiie glad tidings to the whole crea- 
 tion." It would be as easy to prove that the bishop of London may 
 be vicar of Bray, or curate of St. Ives, as that Peter was, or could be, 
 bishop of Rome. These two considerations deserve the attention of 
 my friend, and I hope that he will not pass them too in silence. 
 
 That every important office, essential to the government of any com- 
 munity, must have a place clearly specific in the constitution is scarce- 
 ly necessary to prove; yet, as my opponent seems to slur over this 
 matter, I shall read a sentence or two of the Constitution of the United 
 States, to show that in tlie estimation of its framers, it was necessary 
 to have a distinct assertion of the office and power of the president. 
 
 Art. II. Sect. 1. Tlie executive power shall be vested in a ['resident of the 
 United State>i of America. He shall hold his oflice during tl.e term of four 
 years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 Sect. 2. " Kach state shall appoint, in sucli niannor as the legislature there- 
 of may direct, a number of electors, e(|iial to the whf)le number of senators and 
 repredcntatives to which the state may be entitled in the congress; but no senator 
 or representative, or person holding any olliee of trustor profit under the Unit- 
 ed States, shall be appointed an elector." 77ie American's Guide, p. 20. 
 
 Now the head of the christian church was, at least, as wise as the 
 convention which framed this instrument, foreseeing all the difficulties 
 of the church in all time, and as he was determined to make all things 
 plain, and certainly he was as capable as they to reveal and express 
 iiis own will, had tic resolved to build his church on tlie shoulder of 
 St. Peter, he would have unequivocally expressed it. lie would have 
 defined the office, appointed the first officer, and legislated the mode 
 of election. The practice of electing popes in the church of Rome is 
 a candid ackiiowledgnient that there is tio law in the case: fur tlicy 
 have had very diffi^rent modes at dilTerent periods of their history. 
 What would we Americans say, if every few years a new mode should 
 be adopted, without regard to the constitution 1 Would they submit 
 to Burh a chief magistrate 1 
 
 The gentlriiian proceeded to read and reiterate his remarks on two 
 passages of scripture, often bttfore us: he objects to my criticism on 
 the last chapter of John. His last remarks enable me to give it a 
 more thorough exposition. He says my construction "requires the 
 accusathr for Ihrsc." I say, with more of tlie philosophy of iimiruage, 
 his construrljoii requires the nominative. The question would have 
 been plainly this: "Do you love, inn more than these love me." XXwh, 
 it is true, always requires the genitive; but the whole construction of
 
 112 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the sentence would have been changed, if these were to be the nomina- 
 tive to the verb here understood. My construction is critically correct 
 as the sentence now reads, but it will not bear his construction. But 
 there is yet another great assumption in the quotation of this passage 
 on which I have not yet emphasized. He says, '■'■feed my sheep''' means, 
 feed my pastors, and ^^ feed my lambs^^ means, feed my Jlock. Mark the 
 assumption, that sheep signifies pastors, and lambs the people! Where 
 does he find authority for this? If "s/^«/)" any where else signified 
 ♦' c/er/::y," and "lambs" laity, there would be some plausibility in it; 
 but with the absence of such usage it is supremely whimsical and 
 arbitrary; and yet the point of this passage rests upon the assumption 
 of sheep for clergy. So far he presses it into his service, for that 
 bishops are to feed the flock is not disputed, but that one of them is 
 before the others is the question in debate. 
 
 The gentleman, on Saturday, called my interpretation of this pas- 
 sage a fish story ; this mode of treating so holy an institution, so 
 solemn a matter, is not in the true dignity of the subject, nor of the 
 occasion ; nor is it very respectful to the great personage on whose 
 words we comment ; but the audience have not met it with a laugh, and 
 therefore I presume they felt the incongruity. In the same style are 
 the morning's remarks on the bones, &c. but the bishop might remem- 
 ber there was more in the premises than the spoils of a single meal ; 
 there were many fish and all the apparatus before them, but no one 
 would interpret the words of the question in that style on any other 
 occasion. It was sustenance in general, and not a particular meal, 
 concerning which the Savior spoke. 
 
 The gentleman suggests that, in the 1st chap, of John, Christ in his 
 first interview with Peter changes his name to Cephas ; and he as- 
 sumes " that it was that he might afterwards make him the rock of 
 his church !" It was a very common thing in the history of the patri- 
 archs and Jews to change names. Thus we find from the beginning 
 of their history, various instances of this: " Sarai" is changed into 
 Sarah; " Abram" into Mraham; "Jacob" into Israel. Two of the 
 apostles were called " Boanerges" sons cf Thunder ; but that did not 
 convert them into thunder ; neither did the name Cephas convert Peter 
 into a stone. If I were to give a reason for the addition to Peter's 
 name, (but it was neither change nor addition, rightly considered,) I 
 would say that it was most probably occasioned by the fact, that Daniel 
 spoke of the kingdom of the Messiah under the figure of « stone cut 
 out of the mountain. With an eye probably to this kingdom of the 
 stone, (as Peter was the first convert,) his name is improved by being 
 translated into Syriac ; for after all, it is rather a translation oi' Pctros 
 than an addition to it! He was, however, the beginning of this new 
 spiritual edifice, and a foundation stone; but only one among many. 
 
 This kingdom of the stone, it is foretold by Daniel, was to com- 
 mence in the days of the Cesars : but it was to become the kingdom 
 of the mountain. It was, indeed, to become a great mountain, and fill 
 the whole earth. This building is composed of a succession of foun- 
 dations, provided only that all the popes are successors of Peter, in 
 virtue of his being the rock. To have this whole building at the 
 foundation, or to be always laying new foundations in every election 
 of a pope is rather a singular idea, which grows out of the extravagance 
 of the Romish assumption.
 
 ROJIAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 
 
 113 
 
 The bishop observes that a headless trunk is worth nothing, and 
 would seem to think that our argument on that subject leaves the 
 church without a head. Has the church no other head than the popel 
 Of whatever church the pope is head, that church is the body of the 
 pope: And is it Christ's body tool The Romanists are the body of 
 the bishop's church — cut the head olF that body, or annul the pope's 
 assumption and you destroy its organization. The gentleman rightly 
 appreciates my argument: he feels that it makes the church of Rome 
 a headless trunk: but the mistake is in supposing that this annihila- 
 tion of the pretension annuls the church of Christ. Jesus Christ is in- 
 dependent of the pope. He is head ; and the saints of all ages are the 
 component parts of his spiritual, his mystical body. 
 
 The gentleman's allusion to the Higli Priest was peculiarly unfor- 
 tunate. There never was but one high priest at a time : one in hea- 
 ven and one on earth is without a single hint or allusion in the Bible. 
 We cannot now descant upon such an incongruity. 
 
 The word 'leput (Hierus) priest, occurs not once in the New Testa- 
 ment, in reference to christian bishops, or deacons. It is only found 
 once, and that in the apocalyptic style, in all the christian scriptures : 
 for the idea of any one officiating on the earth as a sacrificing priest, or 
 that christian bishops have aught of a priestly character is anti-christ- 
 ian. But Christ is the anti-type of Aaron. The order of Aaron is ex- 
 tinct. The order of Melchisidec is the model of the Christian High 
 Priesthood. Christ is called of God as was Aaron : but he is called 
 to officiate after the order of Melchisidec. The doctrine of Protestanta 
 is, that their High Priest made one great sacrifice for sin on earth : 
 and that he offered it in the heavens ; and that by one offering of him- 
 self, he has perfected the sanctified. " Brethren, consider the high priest 
 of our profession, Jesus Christ." He ever lives and ever intercedes, 
 and is able to save to the uttermost all that come by him to God. We, 
 therefore, need no high priest on earth. 
 
 The gentleman has told us too often of his love for America, and his 
 love for Kngland. If he repeats these declarations so often, we shall 
 begin to thinii he loves too much in word, and too little in fact. He 
 tells you of 30,000 English bayonets employed in defence of the pa- 
 pacy. And what of thisl Klnglaiid is the cradle of all political free- 
 dom. Our notions of free government were all promulgnd in English 
 books, and tauglil in Englisii schools before they were imported here. 
 We have, indeed practised upon the science of free government more 
 than our mother country. But as in America, we tolerate all religions : 
 80 the British empire in every country wlu^re she has territory or sub- 
 jects, supports and protects all. England tolerates every thing. She 
 supports (yalholicism in Canada, Fipiscopacy in England, Presbyteri- 
 anism in Scotland, and Paganism in the East Indies. Is she not too 
 free and tolerant for my opponent, and for many Protestants ? ! She 
 takes no part against any religion. The popular doctrine in England 
 at this moment is, that Church and State ought not to be amalgama- 
 ted, or consocialed under the same earthly head. Inderd, she is dis- 
 posed to follow her American children very far in this doctrine. 
 
 The bishop seems to apply to Peter what was common to all the 
 
 apostles, " VVhatHor'ver you sluill bind on-carth, shall he bound in 
 
 heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, shall i)e loosed in 
 
 heaven." I remark »ipon this passage, that when the Messiah gave 
 
 k2 15
 
 11-4 DEBATK Oy TUE 
 
 the keys to Peter to open tlie kingdom of heaven to Jews and Gentiles, 
 he did not appropriate to him the solo and exclusive power of binding 
 and loosing: this power ho bestowed on all the apostles. For after 
 Peter opened the kingdom, they all introduced citizens into it, as well 
 as he; and had the same oflicial power; for as John says, chap. 20: 
 he addressed them all — "As my Father hath sent me, so do I send 
 you ; whose soever sins you remit they are remitted to them, and whose 
 soever sins you retain ihey are retained !" — This was spoken, in sub- 
 stance, repeatedly to them all. It is therefore asserting too much, to 
 say that Peter alone was gifted with this power. He only used it 
 first. They always exercised it in its true intent and meaning. I shall 
 be glad to resume again the regular order. 
 
 We have heard much about the bishops of Kome and how they can 
 be traced back even to Peter, &c., &c. I wish my learned opponent 
 would confine himself to the proposition in debate, and permit me to 
 go through with this argument, for succession. Then I will show of 
 how much value are the traditionary enumerations found in Eusebius, 
 from whose authors I can make out two or three successions. 
 
 The gentleman brings up the erudition of the 4th century. I would 
 as soon call on people in this room for testimony that the battle of Bun- 
 ker's hill, or Blenheim was so and so fought — noi one of whom lived 
 at that time; as on persons living in one century to prove what hap- 
 pened in centuries before they were born. In the fourth century there 
 is one writer testifies to the succession. What a decisive proof ! Is 
 there any testimony for the first ttuo hundred years affirming this suc- 
 cession 1 I affirm that there is not. All the tradition on earth fails 
 just in this radical and essential point! 
 
 Again : tradition is wholly silent on the election of the first popes. 
 No one pretends to tell how Peter and Linus and Clement were in- 
 vested with the office. Tradition is even in the hands of Catholics 
 ashamed to depose any thing upon this point. We all know how to 
 dispose of tradition three hundred years too late, in other matters; and 
 I think to the matter of fact people of this generation, it must appear 
 preposterous to prove an event by those who lived one, two, and three 
 hundred years after. 
 
 Irenaeus was introduced as a witness of Peter's having been bishop 
 of Rome : but Irenaeus does not say so on his own responsibility : for 
 he lived at the close of the second century. With him it was only 
 hear-say. Again, his testimony of the church of Rome, having been 
 planted by Paul and Peter is certainly false; and his saying that Poly- 
 carp was appointed bishop of Smyrna by the apostles, greatly weakens 
 his traditionary statements concerning the Roman see: for Polycarp 
 must have been ordained in the year 97, as he died in the year 147, 
 having been 50 years bishop of Smyrna. Consequently it was impos- 
 sible he could have been ordained by the apostles : but of this again. 
 While my opponent speaks so fluently of early fathers, and of the 
 short interval of two or three hundred years from Christ, he seems to 
 forget how long a hundred years is, and how few know much about 
 the events that happened a hundred years ago. Even now, in this age 
 of books and printing, and steam presses, and steam-boats, and rail- 
 roads, and general reading, how few of us could accurately, from me- 
 mory relate the history of the American Revolution ! And yet the gen- 
 tleman talks about the opportunities of a person to ascertain these his-
 
 eoma:? catholic keligiox. 115 
 
 toric facets, one or two hundred years after they occurred, from tradition 
 too, in an age when all these facilities which we enjoy were unknown. 
 Is not this tradition a very loose and uncertain witness ? — [Timo 
 expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 Irenaeus lived in the second- century. He was a disciple of Poly- 
 carp, who was a disciple of John the evangelist. Irenajus, was bish- 
 op of Lyons in France. The chain of testimony consists of three links. 
 John the evangelist, Polj'carp of Smyrna, Irenaeus of Lyons. John 
 told Polycarp what Jesus did — Polycarp told Irenaeus what John had 
 told him, and Irenaeus hears testimony here. This edition was pub- 
 lished by a Protestant divine, named Nich : Gallaius. It is dedicated to 
 Grindalus, bishop of London ; and as I do not like to advance any thing 
 merely on Catholic testimony, I prefer the Protestant to the Catholic 
 edition of this father's works. Irenaeus distinctly says : " Since it 
 would be very long to enumerate in this volume the succession of bish- 
 ops in all the churches, by appealing to the tradition of a church the 
 
 GREATEST AND MOST ANCIENT AND KNOWN TO ALL, which WaS found- 
 ed and established at Rome, by the two most glorious apostles, Peter 
 and Paul ; a tradition which she has from the apostles, and the faith 
 which she announces to men, and which comes down to us through 
 the succession of bishops, we confound all those who in any way, 
 either through evil self complacency or vain glory, or blindness and 
 perversity gather otherwise than is meet. For with this church, on 
 account of her more powerful principality, it is necessary that 
 EVERY CHURCH AGREE, that is the faithful who are on all sides, in 
 which church, the tradition of the apostles has been preserved by the 
 faithful who are on all sides." Iren. lib. in. chap. 3, (adversus haere- 
 ses.) 
 
 Eusebius, has preserved for us a letter, written by the martyrs who 
 suffered in Gaul, in the 19th year of Antonius Verus, and who were 
 charged by the Pagans, as they say in their address to their fellow- 
 citizens in Phrygia, "with feasts ofThyestes, {who ale pari of his 
 own son,) and the incests of Qidipus, and such crimes as are neither 
 lawful for us to speak nor to think, and such indeed, as we do not be- 
 lieve were committed." In this document tlie martyrs commend Ire- 
 naeus, then a presbyter of the ciiurcli of Lyons, to pope Elculherus, 
 whom Irenaeus appealed to on the subject of the Quarto-deciman con- 
 troversy. I have this letter here in Greek. It may perhaps havo 
 more authority if I read the original. 
 
 Thus do wo perceive that Eleulherua was styled "father and bishop 
 of Rome," by these illustrious confessors of Jesus Christ, and his 
 favor invoked in behalf of their brother. 
 
 In book HI. chap. 3, (the title of this chapter is, of the apostolic 
 tradition, or the succession of bishops in the churches from tiic apos- 
 tles.) " These blessed apostles (Pelcr and Paul) founding and insti- 
 tuting the churcji, delivered the care of administering it to Linus, of 
 whom Paul makes mention in his epistle to Timothy. To liim suc- 
 ceeded Anaclclus, after whom Clement obtains the episcopacy, in 
 the third place from Ihf apostles, who had seen and conferred with tlio 
 apostles, who had heard their preaching sounding in his ears, and had
 
 IIG DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ■with his own eyes beheld their traditions. Nor was he the only one — 
 there were many more yet living who had been taught by the apostles. 
 Under this Clement, when no inconsiderable discussion occurred 
 amonor the brethren at Corinth, the churcli of Rome addressed to them 
 most forcible letters, gathering ll)em together in peace, repairing their 
 failh, and announcing fo them the traditions they had recently receiv- 
 ed from the apostles. To Clement succeeded Euaristus, and to Euaris- 
 tus, Alexander; next was Sextus, sixth from the apostles, and after 
 him Telesphorus, who also endured a most glorious martyrdom ; then 
 Hyginus, afterwards Pius, and after him again Anicetus. But when 
 Soter had succeeded Anicetus, now in the twelfth place from the apos- 
 tles, Eleutherus hath the episcopate." There is then the fullest matii- 
 festation that one and the same vivifying faith has been handed down 
 in the church and preserved to the present day. I would fain read 
 the rest of this admirable cliapter, but enough — here is the volume to 
 which all who are anxious for more proof are invited to refer. 
 
 Tertullian, a little later says, confounding the heretics of his day^ 
 "let them produce the origin of their churches, let them display the 
 succession of their bishops, so that the first may appear to have been 
 ordained by an apostolic man, who persevered in their communion." 
 Lib. de pra;scrip. He then enumerates the pontifts from St. Peter, to 
 his own time in the Roman see, and concludes by the memorable 
 words, " Let heretics exhibit any thing like this." The evidence 
 of Eusehius is also before yorf. On this subject I have one remark to 
 make, which no one in this assembly who sincerely desires to know 
 the truth, and of such I trust, the number is not small, will hear with 
 indifference. This is, that in the letter of Cornelius, bishop of Rome, 
 to Fabius, bishop of Antioch concerning Novalus, which is given in 
 full by Eusebius, and is a faithful exhibition of the doctrines of the 
 whole church at that early period, there is not a single doctrine or 
 usage mentioned, which is not taught and observed in the Catholic 
 church in this very city, at this very hour. Is not this an admirable 
 proof of the apostolicily of our cliurch 1 The supremacy of the pope 
 in the supplying of vacant sees, the sacraments of the holy eucharist, 
 baptism, confirmation, orders, a hierarchy, bishops, priests, deacons, 
 subdeacons, acolytes, exorcists, readers, porters, or janitors; asylums 
 for the needy and afflicted — one bishop in a Catholic church ; the 
 right of excommunication, acquiescence of other bishops, personally 
 testified or by letter, in the judgment of the bishop of Rome, &c. 
 &c. &c. In the same letter we see heretics pictured to the life, the 
 errors and evil practices of some modern sectarians described and 
 strongly reprobated, viz : the forcing of communicants to take an oath 
 never to quit a church they have joined. This I know to have occur- 
 red in Maryland, and I presume it is not uncommon. 
 
 Three o'clock P. M. 
 Mr. Campbeij, rises — 
 
 The last half hour of the gentleman was spent in culling antiquity 
 to find some collateral evidence in attempting to defend the great point 
 of the succession of pontiffs ; and with v/hat success you have all seen. 
 His sensibility on the present occasion is truly gratifying. His con- 
 duct here shows that he perceives it to be vital, supremely essential 
 to his system to make Peterbishop of Rome, and to fix the first twen-
 
 noKAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 117 
 
 ty nine links in the apostolic chain. But the barrenness of ancient 
 history cannot be remedied in the nineteenth century. He brought 
 forward one fragment of antiquity on the subject; and it is the only 
 fratnnent on which Eusebius himself relies. In truth that fragment, 
 the° Latin version of Irensus, is the only fragment of antiquity now- 
 extant, or extant in the time of Constantine, from which any thing 
 can be gleaned on this subject. And he never once says that either 
 Paul or Peter separately or jointly were bishops of the church of Roine ! 
 And here again I cannot suppress my astonishment at the choice of 
 the Romanists : — Why they did not make Paul rather than Peter 
 bishop of Rome. In the first place he was a bachelor ; and that is 
 now a most cardinal point : again, he informs us that " he had the care 
 of all the churches." He says, moreover, that he is not behind the 
 chief of the apostles. This is rather disrespectful of pope Peter ! 
 It could be so easily proved, too, that he was once at Rome (though 
 a prisoner for two full years.) Now, if he did not plant the church 
 of Rome; he certainly watered it. He labored more abundantly than 
 all the other apostles. Is it not then ten fold more probable that 
 Paul ratlier than Peter was bishop of Rome'? But probability will 
 not do in the case. We must have the strongest evidence : we must 
 have contemporary testimony : we cannot prove a fact by witnesses 
 who did not see it. We require the evidence of sense. We should 
 not believe the records of Christ's actions, even, unless wc received 
 them from eye and ear witnesses. To illustrate the difficulties that 
 environ my ingenious opponent, I will suppose a case like the one he 
 has to manage. Suppose that in the year one thousand, a tradition 
 had been current that a certain bridge over the river Tiber had been 
 built in the time of the apostles, and that Peter laid the corner stone 
 of the Roman abutment. Some incredulous persons began then to doubt 
 of the matter, and railed upon those who affirmed that Peter laid that 
 stone to prove it. They go to work. They found very many believ- 
 ing it in tlic 10th century : fewer in tlie 9th, fewer in tlie 8tli, fewer 
 in'the 7th, till witliin 200 years of thf> time, they find only one person 
 that affirms failli in it, and with him it is an unwritten tradition. All 
 record ceases. Thire is a perfect chasm of 200 years without a sin- 
 gle witness. Hftw shall tluy throw a bridge over this chasm? 
 Where is tradition during this jjcriod ? Is there not one voiced Not 
 ONE. But tlicy say it is only two hundred years ! But according to 
 all the laws of mind and society, these two hundred years should 
 have the most witnesses : for, the nearer wc approach any true event, 
 the more numerous arr; the vouchers of its nrality and authenticity. 
 Therefore tin; total failure of testimony during that period is fatal to 
 the credibility of the tradition. But they say, it was traditionary for 
 t^vo hundred years: but who can prove the tradition'? It is as hard 
 to prove this tradition as the fact! To prove the existence of it first, 
 and thi'u the aulhenticity of it afterwards, is only rising froni the po- 
 sitive to the Kuporlalive tlitficnlty. W(! can as easily build a hous(! in 
 the air eighteen stories high, leaving out the twf) basement stories, as 
 prove thr- truth of an event 1800 years old, finding a chasm of 200 
 years in wliieh there is not one word about it. The church of Rome 
 believes ni;iny miracles of her own on nu're tradition. There is a le- 
 gend in Ireland to this day, commonly believtd, that St. I'atrick 1200 
 years ago literally sailed from that connlry to Scotland oti a millstone. 
 Now, if we trace this back we shall find the evidence diminishes
 
 118 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 with every century until you come within two or three centuries of 
 the time assigned. Then it comes to a solitary individual, who heard 
 some one say, that he heard another one say, that such a t)ne 
 dreamed so ! 
 
 I think it would be well to advert more pointedly to that law of 
 mind, that the testimony of a fact is always best and strongest be- 
 cause of the number and opportunity of the witnesses at ike time, or 
 near the time it actually existed. For example, at this day, there are 
 many biographies of Washington and narratives of the revolutionary 
 war ; some four or five hundred years hence there Vv'ill be but one or 
 two. Tiiis is the established order of things. Genuine evidence 
 diminishes as we descend from, and increases as we ascend up to the 
 events, or facts recorded. All history is proof of this. It is a law 
 of evidence, and a law of the human mind. Therefore, had Peter 
 been bishop of Rome, we would, as we advanced upwards have found 
 much more evidence of it than in the third and fourth centuries. But 
 on the subject of tradition, I will gratify my audience with a few re- 
 marks from Du Pin : certainly he had no temptation to weaken its au- 
 thority. 
 
 "Criticism is a kind of torch, that lights and conducts us, in the obscurs 
 tracts of antiquity, by making us able to distinjfuish truth from falsehood, hisr 
 tory from fable, and antiquity from novelty. 'Tis by this means, that in our 
 times we have disengaged ourselves from an infinite number of very common 
 errors into which our fathers fell for want of examining things by the rules of 
 true criticism. For 'tis a surprising thing to consider how many spurious books 
 we find in antiquity; nay, even in the first ages of the church. Several reeisons 
 induced men to impose books upon the world, under other men's names. 
 
 The first and most general, is, the malice of heretics; who, to give the great- 
 er reputation to their heresies, composed several books, which they attributed 
 to persons of great reputation; in which they studiousl}' spread their own er- 
 rors, that so they might find a better reception, under the protection of these 
 celebrated names-. And thus the first heretics devised false gospels, false acts, 
 and false epistles of the apostles, and their disciples: and thus those that came 
 after them published several spurious books, as if they had been written by or- 
 thodox authors, that so they might insensibly convey their errors into the minds 
 of their readers, without their perceiving the chf;at. 
 
 The second reason that inclined people to favor books under other men's 
 names, is directly contrary to the first; being occasioned by the indiscreet piety 
 of some persons, who thought they did the church considerable service in forg- 
 ing ecclesiastical or profane monuments in favor of religion and the truth. And 
 this idea prevailed with some ancient christians to forge some testimonies in be- 
 half of the christian religion, under the name of the Sibyls, Jilercurius Tris- 
 megistus, and divers others: and likewise induced the Catholics to compose 
 some books, that they might refute the heretics of their own times with the 
 greatest ease. And lastly: the same motion carried the Catholics so far, a* to 
 invent false histories, false miracles, andfalse lives of the saints, to keep up the 
 piety of the faithful. . . 
 
 The third reason of the forgery of some books, keeps a middle way between 
 those we have already mentioned; for there have been some persons in the 
 world, that have been guilty of this imposture, without any other design, than 
 to divert themselves at the expense of their readers, and to try how nearly they 
 could imitate the style of other men. Hence it is, that some authors have com- 
 posed treatises under St. Cyprian's, St. Ambrose's and Si. Jlustin's names — 
 • * * » * - desiring rather (as the Abbot of Billi says,) to ap- 
 pear abroad, and be esteemed under other men's names than to continue despis- 
 ed, and be buried in darkness, by writing in their own. And these are the rea- 
 sons that may have occasioned tlie forgeryof books; malice, indiscreet piety, 
 and the humors of men. 
 
 But besides these reasons that have advanced this trade of forgery, there are
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 119 
 
 seTeral others that have occasioned the setting- authors' names to several books, 
 which they never writ. 
 
 'Tis very ill clone to conclude that such a book is spurious, because it pinch- 
 es us, and afterwards to starch for reasons why it may be thought so." [Pj-e- 
 face,p. G, 7. 
 
 We select only one of all these judicious and weighty remarks, 
 from one of the most learned of Roman Catholics, viz. '■'■that the Cath- 
 olics themselves have invex\ted false histories, false miracles, and 
 FALSE LIVES OF THE SAINTS," to promote piety in their own members, 
 from which I emphatically ask the question : What is an article of 
 
 {'aith worth which is founded alone upon the traditions of that church?! 
 will only add, these are the words of Du Pin, a learned and authen- 
 tic ecclesiastical historian, whose work is published by the authority 
 of the learned doctors of the Sorbonne. 
 
 I have, let me now add, strong suspicions of tlio authenticity of 
 that passage of Irenasus. The Greek original in the first place is 
 lost: and in the second place the Latin translation was not found for 
 some hundreds of years afterwards. In the third place, two things 
 asserted by Irenaeus are not true: 1st, that Peter and Paul founded 
 the Roman church ; whereas it has been shown by Paul's letter to 
 the Romans, not to have been the case. 2d. This same Irenaeus says, 
 that Polycarp was ordained by the apostles, when according to Poly- 
 carp himself, he was not ordained till the year 97, when all the apos- 
 tles were dead save John, and there is no document to prove that even 
 John lived till that time. Thus dispose we of Roman traditions. 
 
 The gentleman first introduced this authority which I have in my 
 hand — an Episcopalian doctor — one of the most learned authors of the 
 nresent day, George Waddington — " History of the Church, 1834." 
 This author enumerates the bishops of Rome; but listen to his own 
 candid testimony. In his chronological table of eminent men, and of 
 the principal councils, he says : 
 
 " The succtFsion of the earliest Bishops of Rome and the duration of their go- 
 vornment, arc involved in intxplicablc confusion." 
 
 But I have here before me tho Romanorum Poniificum Index — a 
 chronological index of the Roman pontiffs, prefixed to Eusebius. I 
 have compared it for the first two centuries with Eusebius and some 
 of the primitive fathers, on whose authority it partially rests, and I can 
 say with confidence there is no faith can be reposed in it. I find the 
 authorities on which its assertions rest sometimes obscure, frequently 
 contradictory, and often at variance with other facts which they assert; 
 involving the credibility of the whole story of the successions from 
 diff"erent chairs. There are the following tradilions to be collected 
 from Eusebius and his fathers for only the first five links of this chain : 
 
 \st. Lineage. 2nd. Lineage. 3rd. /lineage. 4th. Lineage. 
 
 1- I'etfr. 1. Linus. 1. Tetcr. 1. Ptter. 
 
 2. Litim. 2. Anaclclus. 2. Annclclus. 2. Clement. 
 
 3- ('\'-lui. -.i. fUnient. 3. Clement. 3. LinuM. 
 
 4. Clement. 4. .Sixtus. 4. .Mexandcr. 4. CIctus. 
 
 5. Ana< Ictus. 5. Al(xand(r. 5. Kvaristu-'. 5. Alexander. 
 
 I might argue this suhject for hours and hours, but it is not worth 
 it, I do not like to imilalo my opponent in dilating upon inatters,which, 
 whether true or false, do notnlfcct tho points at isstie tho weight of a fea- 
 ther. But the display we have now made of the hi'ginning of sncces- 
 sion, according to various traditions and stalriiimts, is susceptible of 
 immediate proof, and shows how vacant and dubious these oral and
 
 120 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 hearsay traditions are. Is not Waddington justified in saying "/Ai's 
 ■mailer is involved in inexplicable confusion?'''' and well it is that saving 
 faith depends not upon such testimony ! 
 
 I have said the Romanists have never been uniform in electing their 
 popes. I can show some six or seven different modes of filling 
 the chair of Peter, equally approved by the church of different 
 ages. The chair has often been filled by bribery, by force, by the 
 bayonet, and by all sorts of violence. It has been filled by men and 
 boys, and by all sorts of characters. But of this more fully at an- 
 other time. 
 
 The gentleman remarked, on Saturday, that the pope is not infalli- 
 ble. The question was not about the man, but the pope. I take him 
 at his word, and will now prove, that neither the present pope nor his 
 predecessors are successors of Peter; because Peter was infallible, 
 both in doctrine and in discipline. How, then, can these fallible 
 gentry — these fallible popes — be successors to Peter, in the capa- 
 city of officers, when they have not the grace of office, — my opponent 
 himself being judge? 
 
 I shall now attempt continuously to show, that if even Peter had 
 been placed by a positive precept in the office of vicar and head of the 
 church, all the official grace of such an appointment has failed by the 
 Tarious schisms in the Roman see. The chain has been broken ; for 
 Roman Catholics themselves admit, at least, twenty-two schisms ; 
 some count twenly-six. Protestants can find twenty-nine. I have al- 
 ready shown that the hook and the first link must be better secured, 
 if not welded ; for Peter the hook and first link has not yet been fas- 
 tened to the right place ; and some of the first links are so entangled 
 that Eusebius, the pope, and C. Waddington, cannot strengthen them. 
 And to quote the words of .4. Pope, not the pope, if one link be missing, 
 " 2\nih or ten ihousnadllt breaks the chain alike." 
 
 Ah me ! I am jostled out of my course again ! The mention of 
 Eusebius reminds me that the bishop has quoted him against the No- 
 vatians, &c. But what avails the testimony of Eusebius as a sectary? 
 It is quoting a Jansenist against a Jesuit — a Calvinist against an Ar- 
 minian — a Romanist against a Protestant. Eusebius speaks as a his- 
 torian, and he speaks as a sectary; sometimes Arian, perhaps, some- 
 times Trinitarian ; but certainly opposed to Novatus and his party. 
 It is very hard for a warm partizan, in any case, to state his opponent's 
 views fairly. I have never yet heard any one oppose Calvinism, or 
 Arminianism, just precisely as it was. There is some little difference 
 or other in the most equitable hands, which the opposite party would 
 not have stated just so ; and we know how often the merits of contro- 
 versy rests upon these minute matters. Novatus and Cornelius were 
 both elected bishops of Rome, and a controversy arose on their respec- 
 tive claims. In the course of the controversy, we learn, that it turned 
 on these two points: 
 
 " That Cornelius admitted (hose who had been guilty fif Idolatry to communion; 
 and Novatus taught that the church neither could nor ought to admit those to the 
 communion that bad apostatized." Uu Fin. Vol. I. p. 135. 
 
 Novatus was the rival of his friend Cornelius, and he regards him 
 as an anti-pope; he is, indeed, called anti-pope 1st. And, at this day, 
 we cannot tell whether Novatus or Cornelius was the successor of 
 Peter! So the first schism commenced, and we look for the faithful
 
 E03LVN CATHOLIC EKLIGIOX. 121 
 
 witnesses against Roman assumption from that hour amongst the Re- 
 monstrants — call them the Novatians, Puritans, or Protestants. 
 
 The second schism we shall notice is that between Liberius and 
 Felix, A. D. 367, 
 
 " Constaiitius being enraged against St. Alhanasius, as supposing him the cause 
 of that enmity which his brother Constans had against him, Liberius as to this 
 answered wisely, jou ought not, sir, to make use of bishops to revenge your 
 quarrels ; for tlie hands of eccltsiastics ought not to be employed, but only to 
 bless and lo sanctify. At last Constantius threatened him with banishment ; 'I 
 have already,' says he, ' bid adieu to my brethren at Rome, for the ecclesiastical 
 laws are to be preferred before my living there.' Three days time were given 
 him to consider of it, and because he did not change his opinion in that time lie 
 was banished two days after to Berea a city of Thrace. The emperor, the em- 
 press, and the eunuch F.usebius, offered him money to bear the expenses of his 
 journey, but he refused it, and went away cheerfully to the place of his banish- 
 ment. The clergy of Rome having lost their iiead, took an oath to choose no- 
 body in the room of Liberius as long as he was alive ; but Constantius. by the 
 management of Epictetus bishop of Centumcellar in Italy, procured one Felix a 
 deacon lo be ordained bishop, who was himself also one of them that had sworn 
 not to choose a bishop in the room of Liberius « * » But Liberius, who had 
 given proof of so great constancy in time of peace, could not long endure the 
 tediousness of banishment ; for before he had been two years in it, he suffer- 
 ed himself to be over persuaded by Demophilus bishop of that city, of which he 
 was banished, and did not only subscribe the condemnation of St. Athanasius ; 
 but he also consented to an heretical confession of faith."— £>« Fin. Vol. L p. 190. 
 
 Now, if we take Liberius for the true pope, we must take an Jrian 
 head; for it must be acknowledged that he subscribed the heretical 
 and Ariaii creed ; and, perhaps, at this time the majority of the Roman 
 Catholic church were Arians ; but that is not the present inquiry. 
 
 We shall now read an account of the third schism : 
 
 D.VM.ASUS, BISIIcr OF ROME. 
 
 '• After the death of pope Liberius, which happened in the year 369, the see 
 of Rome being vacant for some time, by reason of the cal)alling "of those that pre- 
 tended to fill it, Daniasiis at last was' chosen by the greater part of the clergy 
 and people, and ordained by the bishops. But on the other side, Ursimis, 
 or rather Ursirinus, who was his conipctitor for the popedom, got himself 
 ordained by some otlu.r bishops in the church of Sicinus. This coiitest caused 
 a great division in the city of Rome, and stirred up so great a sedition there as 
 could hardly be appeased. 'J'he two jjarties came from words to blows, and 
 many christiang were killed in the churches of Rome upon this quarri 1. The 
 governor of Rome called J'rfrtcilus, bt ing desirous to allay the heat of this 
 contention, sent IJrsir.iiws into banishment by the emperor's order: but his 
 bonishment did not p< rfertly appease the cpinrrel; for the partizans of Ursicinus 
 assembled still in llie rhurchcs ofwhich they were possessed, without ever com- 
 municating with Diimasiis; and even when'the emperor had ordered that their 
 churches gfioiild lietakf n from them, they ^till kejilui) their assenil)lie8 without the 
 city, 80 that it was necessary at la^t to (Irive them rpjite out of Rome. And yet all 
 this did not hinder Ursirinus from having his secret associates in Italy and 
 at Rome. The bishop of PnUoli calhd Flornitius, and th<. bishoj) of I'arma wern 
 most zealous for his interests. Tliey were rondemned in a council held at Rome 
 in the year. '$72, and afterwards banished by thf authority of the emperor. How- 
 ever tnry found means to return into ttuir own country, and stirred up new 
 troubles there. They got pope Dnmasus to be arciiseif by one hanr, a Jew. 
 This arciisntion was examined in a council of bishops liehi at Rome, in tlie yrar 
 378, which dfclp.rrd Dnmasus innocent of the crime that was laid to his cliiirge. 
 This council wrote a litter to the emperor (iratinn, praying him to lake somo 
 order for the pence of Ihi- church r,f Rome. 'I he »iii|)eror wrote It. them, that 
 Ursicinus was detained at Colofrne, tlmt he had given ordi r to banish f.innr in- 
 to a corner of Spain^ and to force the bishops ol I'liteoli and rarnin, out f.f their 
 country. This flifl not hinder Untirinns from returning into Italy in the year 
 381, where he stirred up new tumult*, and endeavored to pre-engage the empe- 
 ror: but the bishops of Itahj being assembled in a council at Afiuilcia, in tbo 
 
 L IG
 
 122 DEHATi; ox Tin; 
 
 year 381, wrote to smartly to him, tlint he banished LVj/cini/s forcvtr, and left 
 Damastis in praccablf pos^session ot" the sec of Rome, in wliich lie continued un- 
 til the year 384." Du Pin. Vol. I. p. 22G, 2-27.— [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 Bisiicp Pt'RCELi. rises — 
 
 In the 2nd. century lived Tortnlliau — a priest in Africa. He showed 
 how clear was the chain of tradition — he says distinctly that Peter was 
 bishop of Rome. I am g^ointr to (luole another splendid passage from 
 his testimony. But first let me ask, how could a massive, an enormous 
 volume like this (holdings it up) of which the zeal of the early Christ- 
 ians, has made so many copies ; and a portion of which, the admirable 
 apologetic, or del'ence of our Christian ancestors, was addressed to the 
 Pagan Emperors, have been vitiated'? It was spread over the whole 
 world — it was read with avidity by Christians and heathens. It is 
 authentic history and based on testimony far more credible than we 
 possess of the genuineness of Homer, or Horace, of Tacitus, or Cicero. 
 We could not believe any fact of history, not even our title to our houses 
 and other goods and chattels, without admitting it. How else but by 
 such records, do we know with certainty of events of which our senses 
 have not taken cognizance, of which we have no personal knowledge, that 
 a few years ago we fought a hard battle with England and gained our 
 independence ? That our general was named Wasliington, and that he 
 was aided by La Fayette 1 Comparatively recent as these events be, they 
 are matters of tradition! and tradition is but another name for history. 
 Admit my learned opponent's principle, and the world will be turned 
 to|)sy-turvy. We cannot be sure of any thing. I now cite Tertullian; 
 and mark, I pray you, the clearness and force of his reasoning in the 
 following syllogism, for apostolical succession. 
 
 Ttrtullian de praescriptione adveisiis liitTeticos, lib. p. 391. " If the LorilJtsus 
 Chrijt sent his apastles to preach, no other preachers are to be received than 
 those whoin he coniinissioned : for no" one knows the Father but the Son. and 
 they to whom the Son hath revealed him, nor is the Son seen to have reveal- 
 ed him to any others than the apostles, whom he sent to preach what he reveal- 
 ed to them. Now what they preached, that is to say, vvnat Christ revealed to 
 them, I will here lay down as a principle (hie prffiscribam) cannot be otherwise 
 proved than by the same churches which the apostles, themselves, founded, by 
 preaching to them, themselves, both by word ot mouth, as they say, and, after- 
 wards, by their epistles. If this be so, it is therefore plain that all the doctrine 
 which agrees with these apostolic churches, the malriccs and originals (or exem- 
 jjlars) of faith, is to be reputed true, as undoubtedly, holding that which the 
 churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, and Christ from 
 God : but that all other doctrine is to be prejudged false, as teaching contrari- 
 Iv to the churches and to the apostles, to Christ and to God. All, therefore, 
 tliat remains now to be done is to demonstrate that the doctrine we preach, as 
 already explained, has been handed down to us from the apostles, and thus con- 
 vict all other doctrines of t'alsehood "They, (the heretics) object that Peter 
 
 was reprehended by Paul. But let those who make this allegation shew that 
 Paul preached a dilferent gospel from what Peter preached and the other apos- 
 tles. If Peter was rejjrehentled for withdrawing, through human respect, from 
 intercourse with the (jentiles, with whom he previously associated, this was a 
 fault of conduct (conversationis) not of preaching. He did not, on this account, 
 preach a different God from the Creator, a different Christ from the son of Ma- 
 ry, a different hope from that of the resurrection — and, (to refute these here- 
 tics,) I will answer as it were for Peter, that I'aul, himself, said that he made 
 himself, all things to all men, a Jew to the Jews, and no Jew to those who were 
 no Jews, that he may gain all. So that Paul repreljended, under certain cir- 
 cumstances, in Peter, what he, himself, under certain circumstances, did."
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 123 
 
 But I might read the whole book of prescriptions by TertuUian 
 against heretics. 
 
 The fish story again — here is Henry's exposition of the Bible. The 
 principal meaning, in his view, is that which I have given. 
 
 Could Paul, my friends, claim to be the chief of the apostles? Ho 
 had probably done more than any man then living against Christianity, 
 until prostrated by anger and mercy, on the road to Damascus. " Saul, 
 Saul, wliy persecutest thou me" changed him from a wolf to a lamb, 
 from a persecutor to an apostle. 
 
 Eusebius informs us that Paul of Samosata, was deposed bj' a coun- 
 cil in consequence of the heresy introduced by him at Antioch, of wiiich 
 a detailed account had been rendered b3'the council to Dionysius, bish- 
 op of Rome. Paul being unwilling to leave the building of the 
 church, "an appeal was made to the emperor Aurelian, who decided 
 most equitably on the business, ordering the building to be given up 
 to those whom the christian bishops of Rome and Italy should write." 
 Another Pagan, Ammianus Mnrccllinus, giving an account of the 
 persecution raised by the emperor Constantius against the famous 
 patriarch of Alexandria St. Atlianasius, tells us that this emperor 
 strove hard to procure the condemnation of Atlianasius by Liberius, on 
 account of the supreme authority enjoyed bj' the bishops of the Roman 
 see." " Even from the mouths of l)abes and sucklings," says the 
 Scriptures, " hath God made perfect praise." I may observe, tliat he 
 has extorted testimony from Pagan kings and historians, to prove the 
 authority of the bishop of Rome ihronghoul the Christian world. 
 
 My friend has introduced the subject of unity, in connection with 
 tradition. We shall argue that, if he ])ieases, from the Bible ; but in 
 the mean time let us hear Cyprian, a bishop of Carthage, in Africa, 
 on this subject, in the .'5J. century. I am bold to say, you have never 
 heard argument stronger, illustration more apposite, or language more 
 beautiful, than what this father employs. 
 
 Cvpriaii. (Ic Uiiitatc l-lcclesia: Ciitholic;:', [). 181, ami Di: Siinplici Prros. The 
 primacy isgiv<:n to I'rtfcr that the church and thi: c!i;iir of Christ may be shewn 
 to be out. And all tlu: apo<-(l(:s and sheplitrds, but tht-rc is seen but one; (lack, 
 fed by all the npoiitlt-s with unanimous consent ; can he who holdcth not 
 thin unity, believe he liolds the faith ? Can hf who resists and opposes tlic 
 church, who forsakes the chair o( I'eter, on whicli the church was founded, flat- 
 ter iiinisclf that he is in the cliurch, while the apostle Paul t<;aches the same 
 thing and shews the sacrament of unity, saying-, "ONF, noDY A.vn ONE SPiliiT, 
 ONK HOPE OK VOLR VOfATION, ONF. 1,0111), ONE FAITH, O.NF, ItAI'TISAI, ONF. 
 God." Let no man decejvr: the brotln rliood by a lie ; let no inaji, by perfidi- 
 ous ))revarications corrupt the truth of faith ! The e])iscopacy is one, lach se- 
 parate part Ijeinj^ consolidated in one. 'I'hc church too is one, with btxiiriniit 
 fertility extending- her branihes throughout. As tiiere are many rays of light, 
 but no more than one sun, many branc-lieH, but only one truidi, held fast in tin-. 
 earth by its tenacious root, many btreams pushing from one fountain, but all 
 blendecl in their source. Sever a ray from the sun, the unity o( light sutlers 
 no dividion ; break a brHiich from the tree, the liroken branch will l)ud no more, 
 cut off n stream from the source, the severed stream will dry up. ."^o liki-vviso 
 the church, irrndialeil with the light of the Lord, ditluses her rays throughout 
 the universe. 'I'he light, however, which is every where dilTused is one, nor is 
 the unity of the body separated. She spreads her eopiuus slrianis, but tliere is 
 one head, one origin, one blessed mother with a numerous jirogeriv. We arc 
 her offspring, we are nourished with her milk, we are imimaled witli her spirit. 
 He ran no huiger have Cod for his tiither, who has not the < hurrh for his moth- 
 er. If any one out of the nrk of iN'oe njuld <s(-ai)e, s'l likewise he that is out 
 of the church may escape. 'I'he Lord says, 1 an(f the F'athcr arc one : again, it 
 ia written of the (•■other, and Son, and Holy Ulioat: " and thcie three ore one," 
 
 I
 
 124 • DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and can any one imagine that the unitv which proceeds from tlivinc slrcng'th, 
 and whicli is niaintaineil by (iivine sarranioiils, can be torn asunder in the church, 
 and destroyed by the opposition of disconiant hearts.'" 
 
 I will now go over the ground, my friend travelled this morn- 
 ing. He said we allowed that we had two high priests on earth. I 
 protest against the gentleman's saying for nie what I have not said. 
 One high Priest we have in heaven, d'od. lie has a vicar on earth, 
 the pope. But that vicar wields no authority hut from God. 
 
 I have, again, hecn reprehended for endeavoring to gain friends by 
 expressing a liking for the English people, the Irish, and the Ameri- 
 cans. But, my friends, have I done them more than justice 1 Have I 
 swerved from the truth? Have I not said that the English had a 
 thousand faults'? — [Time expired.] 
 
 Ihur o'cloch, P. M. 
 Mr. Campbell rises — 
 
 We have had a learned discussion on the unity of the church. We 
 can sit and patiently hear my opponent while he fills up his time by 
 reading the views of the saints on unity or any thing else he may 
 deem edifying. But as this is not the business now before us, we 
 shall be glad he would choose some other time for it. On this sub- 
 ject we have no controversy at the present time : and that the church 
 should be one, and that she is one virtually and in fact, we doubt not. 
 All that has been read by my opponent on this subject is wholly a 
 free will ofiering, instead of that argument which the occasion demands. 
 
 Was Peter ever bishop of Rome'? That indeed was a question : but 
 is it a standing question? How often will my opponent recur to it 
 without proving it ? He says, indeed, that Ireuieus says that he was : 
 but I say, not a line can be shown from Irenaeus nor any other writer 
 of the first two centuries affirming in so many words that Peter was 
 bishop of Rome! Let him then refute me at once, by producing the 
 passages. He might have heard so. He has produced Tertullian as 
 a commentator or a retailer of traditions. 'J'hat you may know some- 
 thing of Tertullian as a theorist, and commentator, I will read you by 
 way of offset a sample or two, simply to show how much these opi- 
 nions are worth. He speaks very advantageously of custom and 
 tradition, and relates several remarkable examples of ceremonies which 
 he pretends to be derived from tradition. 
 
 " To begin," says he, "with baptism, when vre are ready to enter into the wa- 
 ter, and even before we make our protestations before the bishop, and in the 
 church, that we renounce the devil, all his pomps and njinisters : afterward, we 
 are plunged in the ^val(r three times, and they make us answer to some things 
 which are not precisely set down in the gospel; after that they make us taste 
 milk and honey, and we batiie ourselves every day. during that whole week. We 
 receive the sacrament of the eucharist, institute J by Jesus Clirist, when vie eat, 
 and in the morning assemblies we do not receive it but from the hands of those 
 that preside there. We offer yearly oblations for the dead in honor of the mar- 
 tyrs. We believe fliat it is not lawful to fast on a Sunday and to pray to God 
 kneeling. From Easier to Whitsuntide we enjoy the same privilege. We take 
 great care not to sutler any part of the wine and consecrated bread to fall to the 
 ground. We often sign ourselves with tlie sign of the cross. If you demand a 
 law for these practices taken from scripture, we cannot find one there ; but we 
 must answer, that 'tis tradition thai has established them, custom las authorized 
 them, and faith has made them to be obsf rved." Tertidl. De Corona IMilitis. 
 
 When Tertullian asserts a fad, I believe: but when he relates a 
 drearn, a guess, an opinion, or reports a tradition, I listen to hiin as 
 to the speculations of a contemporary. You shall have it both in 
 Latin and Enarlish.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 125 
 
 "Age jam qui voles curiositateiu melius exercere in negotio salutis tuae, per- 
 curre ecclesiasapostolicas, apud quas ipsae adhuccatheilr.-c apostolorum suis locis 
 praesidentur, apud quas ipsce authentica; lilera? recitantur, senates vocem, et 
 reprtesentanteslacieni uniuscujusque. Proxima est tibi Achaia ? Habes Corinthum. 
 Si non longe es a Macedonia, habes Philippos, habes Thessalonicenses. Si pe- 
 tes in Asiani tendere, habes Ephesun). Si auteni Italiaj adjaces, habes Romani, 
 unde nobis quoque aucotritas pnesto est." 
 
 " Conic now, you who are desirous more fully to devote yourselves to the great 
 affair of your salvation, hasten to the apostolic churches. Still do the very 
 chairs of the apostles vet stand in their own places: sUW are their ttuiheniic letters 
 recited, v^'hich seund" forth their very tones, and whiih faithfully exhibit their 
 very countenances. If you are in Achaia, you haveCorinth: if in Macedonia, you 
 have Philippi and Thessalonica. If you journey into Asia, you have Ephesus. 
 If Italy be your residence, you liave Rome," itc. 
 
 On this precious excerpt I will only remark that it fully proves, 
 
 1. That the authentic copies or autographs of the apostolic epistles 
 were extant in the time of Tertullian, in those churches to which 
 they were addressed. — 
 
 2. That the superiority of these churches named above others, so 
 far as salvation was concerned, was, that they had these authentic 
 epistles carefully preserved and read. — 
 
 3. That as respected authority in the grand affair of salvation, in 
 the judgment of Tertullian, Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, Ephesus 
 and Rome were equal. — Pardon tlie digression. The extract is worth 
 a volume in prostrating the arrogant pretensions of Rome. 
 
 One word on the text, as commented on by Matthew Henry. I 
 have had his work in my library for twenty five years. He is a high- 
 ly esteemed practical commentator : but is not ranked among critics. 
 But yet he decides nothing for my opponent. He admits that it may 
 be either the one or the oilier explanation. But mind me. The Roman 
 Catholic doctrine requires the explanation "lovcstthou me more than 
 these love me ;" because it was on account of a supremacy of love 
 over all the apostles, that it claims for Pcler the supremacy. But 
 Henry admits tliat Clirist may have alluded to the nets and boats and 
 occupation of Peter; while he refers to or say.s, "do you love me 
 more than your companions." Tiie Messiah never, indeed, had any 
 jcalou.sy of that sort. His comment on John xxi. 15, reads : 
 
 " Lovcsl thou iiic more llian th(«t"? lieltcr than Junifis or John thy intimate 
 friends, or Andrew, thy own brother and companion! 'I'liose do not love Christ 
 a right, that do not love liiin belter than the best friend in the world, and make 
 it appear, when ever they stand in competition, or, more than these things, 
 the»« boats and nets! Those only love Christ indeed, that love him better than 
 all the delijfhts of sense and all tlie occupations and profits of this world. J.oy- 
 est thou me more than these? If so, leave th( ni to employ thyself wholly in 
 feeding my flock." Henry's Commentary. 
 
 But I would like to read what this commentator says about the rock: 
 
 Matthew xvi. Iff. '• And I say unto thee, that (liou art I'tter; and upon this 
 rock, I will build my church; anil the gates of ht II shall not prevail against it." 
 
 Peler'i confession contains that fundamental truth, r< «p« iliiig the person^ and 
 offices of Christ, upon which, as on a roi-k, he would budd his church. Nor 
 could the powers of death or the inlraiice into tlu- etirnal world, de-troy the 
 hope of lho«e who should build on it. Nothing can be more absuni tliim to sup- 
 pose that {'liriil meant thai tin; person of Peter was the rock, on which the 
 church should be hiiilded; except it be the wild notion that the bishops of Homo 
 have since substituted in his i>lace! Their rock in not as our rock, our enemies 
 themselves being jn Iges. Without doubt, Chri-t himself the rock— and tried 
 founflation of the church, and woe be to him who altenipts to lay any other, lb. 
 
 If then, MaUliew Henry is good authority on one point he is good 
 on the other. 
 L 2
 
 120 DEBATE OX THK 
 
 Bishop Oley of Tennessee has l)erii unceremoniously drat^gcd into 
 this controversy. He is a f]^entleman I'or whom I entertain a very 
 high regard : and while we difier on some questions, concerning dio- 
 cesan episcopacy, we perfoctljf ao;ree on the import of 'it^t/c (Hi(>rus) 
 a priest, as applied to christians, lie has no idea, more than myself 
 of a christian hicrus, or priest ollering sacrifices for sins on earth. He 
 has not answered, indeed, seven letters addressed to him by myself on 
 bishop Onderdonk's tract on diocesan episcopacy : but yet it is not 
 too late. We expect one of these bishops to reply to them. 
 
 The Roman Catholics alone contend that priests, by whicii they 
 mean an order of clergy, can offer sacrifice for sins. Nay, indeed, 
 Mr. Hughes in his controversy with Mr. Breckenridge, says, " To oiler 
 sacrifice is the chief official business of the priests." p. 288. Hence, 
 we learn that even in this enlightened land and 19th century, there 
 are persons amongst us claiming the power of making sin offerings 
 and expiating and forgiving sins !! 
 
 We now resume the history of schisms in the succession : 
 
 We last read you the contentions and havoc of human life on the 
 succession of Damasus. The emperor at that time decided the con- 
 troversy by banishing Ursinus, and on the decision of that emperor 
 now rests the faith and salvation of the Roman church — themselves 
 being judges. And yet, my learned opponent, in some of his speeches, 
 affects to tell you that emperors have nothing to do, — no right to in- 
 terfere in councils, or with church officers ; and here, and on numer- 
 ous occasions, we find them filling Peter's chair, making vicars of 
 Christ, and heads for his church !! 
 
 We cannot rehearse all the schisms, and sliall therefore give only 
 a specimen. We take another instance of an imperial pope — one of 
 an emperor's creation. 
 
 " After the dtath of pope Zozimus, tlie cluii-ch of Home was divided about 
 the election of his successor. The archdeacon iMjlalius, who aspired to the 
 bishopric of Rome, shut himself up in the church of the Lateran, with part of the 
 people, some priests, and some deacons, and made them choose iiim in Zozimus' 
 room. On the other side a great number of priests, several bisiiops, and part 
 of the people, being assembled in the church of Theodora, elected Boniface. 
 Both were ordained; Kulalius was ordained by some bishops, aujong whom was 
 the bishop of Ostia, who used to ordain the bishop of Rome. Honifqce was 
 likewise ordained by a great number of bishops, and went to take possession of 
 St. Peter's church. 
 
 Svmmachus, governor of Rome, having tried in vain to make them agree, writ 
 to tne emperor llonorius about it. In his letter of the 29th of December, 418, 
 he speaks in Eulalius' behalf, and judges Boniface to be in the wrong. The 
 emperor believing his relation, sent him word immediately that he should 
 expel Boniface and upliold Eulalius. The governor liaving received this order, 
 sent for Boniface to ac(|uaint him with it, but he would not come to him, so that 
 the governor sent to him to signify the emperor's order, and kept liim from re- 
 turning into the city. The bishops, priests, and the people that sided with 
 Boniface, wrote immediately to the emperor to entreat him that he would order 
 both Kidalius and Bonijhce to go to court, that their cause might there be 
 "udged. To satisfy them, the emperor sent to Si/iianachus an order of 30th of 
 anuar_v, 419, signifying that lie should enjoin Jionifice and Kulalius to be at 
 Ravenna about the 6lh oi February, llonorius convened some bishops thither 
 to judge of their cause; and that they might not be suspected of favoring any 
 one side, he commanded that none of those who had ordained either of them, 
 should be a judge in the case. The bisiiops that were chosen to judge this 
 cause being divided, the emperor put ofi' the judgment till May, and forbade 
 Kulalius nnd Boniface to go to Rome; and sent thither .'3 c/(t7/n/s, bishop fjf 
 Upoltto, to perform the Episcopal functions during the KasUr holydays ; in 
 
 J
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 127 
 
 which time he prepared a nunierous synod, and invited the bishops both o( ji^rica 
 and Gaul; but Eulalius could not endure that delay, and spoiled his business 
 by his impatience; for whether he distrusted his ri^ht, or whether he was of a 
 restless temper, he returned to JRonie the IGth o( March, and would have staid 
 there notwithstanding the emperor's orders, which obliged Symmachus to use 
 \ioknce to drive him out of Rome; and the emperor having- been informed of 
 his disibedience, waited fjr no other judgri.ent, but caused Boniface to be put 
 in posses-ion in the beginning of April, 419." — Lhi Pin, vol. I. p. 417. 
 
 The Holy Spirit, then, by tiie emperor Hoiiorius, — an Jn'ati, too, 
 (if I recollect right,) establishes a vicar for Christ in the person of 
 IJoniface I. What, says bishop Purcell, have emperors to do \vith 
 Christ's church ? ! Once, then they had a great deal to do with it; 
 and where is infallibility now 1 
 
 Next comes pope Symmachus. Again the church's head is the 
 fruit of bloodshed and war. 
 
 '• After the death of pope ,/lnastasitis, which liappcn<(l at the end of the 
 year 498, there was a fierce contention in the church of Rome between L,au- 
 rtnliiis aiid Symmachus, which of them two was duly promoted to that see. Sym- 
 jiiachus who was deacon, was chosen, and ordained by the far greater number; 
 Ijut F':iius a Roman Senator, who had jiromised the Emperor Anastasius, that 
 his edict of agreement with the bishop of Rome should be signed, procured 
 Laiirentius to be chosen and ordained. This schism divided the church and 
 the city of Rome, and the most eminent both of the clergy and the senate took 
 part with one of these two bishops: but at length both, parties agreed to 
 wait upon King Thcodoric at Ravenna for his decision in the case, udiich was 
 this, That he shntitj coniiniie bishop (if Rome, n-ho had been Jirsl chosen, and 
 should be found to have thejitr greater number of voices for him. Symmachus 
 had the advantage of Laiirentius on both these accounts, and so was confirmed in 
 the possession ol the holy see, and he ordained Lnurenlivs bishop of J^~ocera, 
 if we may believe Anastasius. At the beginning of the next year he called a. 
 council, wherein he made a canon against the ways of sohcitin"- nuns' voices, 
 which were then used for obtaining the pa)5al dignity : but those who o[)])Osed the 
 ordination of Symmachus, seeing hnn possi ssi-d of the holy see against their mind, 
 used all their endeavours to turn him out of it, for x\hich end they diarged him 
 with many crimes, they stirred up a part of the people and senate against him, 
 and caused a petition to be presented to king 7'heodoric, that he ^\ould aj)poiiit 
 a delegate to luar the cause. He named I'eter bishop of ..lllinas, who dejjosed 
 the pope from the government of his diocese, and deprived him of the possessions 
 of the church. This division was the cause of so great disorders in Rome, that 
 from words they came many tin)es to blows, and every day produced lighting and 
 iimrders: many ecclesiastics were beaten to death, virgins were robbed, and driven 
 away from their haljitation, many lay-men were wounded orkilliul, insomuch that 
 not only the church, but also the city of Rome sulfered very much by this schism. 
 
 King 'I'licodoric being ties irons to put an end to these disorders, called a council; 
 wherein the bishop being, possessed with a good o|iinion of Pope Syuiaclivs, would 
 not enter upon lln^ examination of the particulars albgid against him, but only- 
 declared him innocent before his accusers, of the crinjes that were laid to Ins 
 charge: and they |)revailed so far by their importunity, that the king was satisfied 
 with tills sentence, and both the ])i:o\>\i: and the senate who had l)een very much 
 irritated against Symmaclins, were pacified, and ncknowhdged him for pope. Yet 
 sonic of the discontentfcl party still remained, who drew up a \vriting against the 
 Synod and .npread their cnliiimiies, forged against .Sipnmaclius, as far as the east. 
 'I'lie einjttrvr .Inaslusius obji'cted them to hnn, which obliged .S'i/m»;i«cA//.? to write 
 a litter to him for his own vindication; but notwithstanding these elVorls of his 
 I nemic», he rontiniied in possession of the holy si e until the yi ar ."ill win rein 
 le died." I)u I'm. \ol. I. p. 5.27. 
 
 If we cannot find (Jlirisl's church some where out ol tlic Uoniaa 
 church at this time, we shall have a hard task to find her there ! 
 
 Again, we shall read a few words concerning I'oniface II. 
 
 " Jjonifiicc, the sci ond of thai nnmc-, the fir^l pope o(t tie nal ion o( the (iolht, wan 
 promoted lo the holy see, under the reign of king Ahiri'iiH on the I'llii (lay of Oc- 
 tober, in the year 5J9. At the tame time one part of the chrgy chose Dioscorus
 
 128 DEBATE ON THK 
 
 who was formerly one of tlic tlcputics sent into the east by Hormisdas. Honiface 
 was ordaini'd in the churcli of Jnlius, ;\n(l Diosconis in that of Constantine. 15ut 
 this last died the 12th day of iVovoinbcr. Honiface seeing; himself left in sole 
 possession used his utmost endeavors to bring over those who had been of the 
 other party: he threatened thi ni with an aiuithenia, and forced lh(;m to subscribe. 
 He called together the clergy, anil condemned the memory of Dioscorus, accusing 
 him of simony. He proceeded yet further, and, as if it were not enough for him 
 to be secured of the noly see for himself, he would also appoint himself a suc- 
 cessor, and having called a synod, he engaged the bishops anci clergy by oalh, and 
 under their hands, that they should choose and ordain in his room the deacon 
 Vigilius afterhis death. This being against the canons, he himself acknowledged 
 publicly his fault, and burned the yvriting which he extorted from them." Du Pin. 
 Vol. I." p. 542. 
 
 What an excellent head, truly, for the church of Christ ! 
 
 "We shall next see, that other women besides queen Elizabeth, 
 whom my opponent denounces for being head of the English church, 
 had something to do in pope manufacturing. — Pope Sylverius and 
 pope Vigilius come next: 
 
 "The deacon Vigilius remained at Constantinople after the death of Agapetus, 
 who had for a longtime aspired to the bishopric, and made use of this occasion 
 to get himself promoted to it. He promised the empress, that if she would 
 make him pope he would receive Theodosius, Authimus, and Severus into his 
 connuunion, and that he yvould approve their doctrine. The empress not only 
 promised to make him pope, but also offered him money if he would do what 
 she desired. Vigilius having given the empress all the assurances that she could 
 wish, departed with a secret order addressed to Bellisarius to make him success- 
 ful in his design. Vigilius being come into Italy, found all things well prepared 
 for him, the siege of Rome was raised when he arrived there, but during the 
 siege Silverius was suspected to hold correspondence with the Goths, and so he 
 was rendered odious for refusing expressly to accept the empress's proposals of 
 receiving Authimus. Thus Vigilius having delivered to BelPisarius the order 
 which he brought, and having promised him two hundred pieces of gold over 
 and above the seven hundred which he was to give him, found no great difficulty 
 to persuade him to drive away Silverius." 
 
 **»*■* 
 
 " This was put in execution, be yvas delivered to the guards of Vigilius, and 
 fie was banished into the Isles of Ponticnna and Panctataria, which were over 
 against the mount Cirrellus, where he died of a famine in great misery, if we 
 may believe Liberatus. Procopius, in his secret historj, seems to insinuate, that 
 he was killed by one named F.ugenius, a man devoted to Antonina — the wife of 
 Bellisarius: but what Procopius says, may be understood not of the death of 
 Silverius, but ratherof his accusation or apprehension." 
 ««*» ***** * 
 
 " Although Vigilius was promoted to the see of Rome, by a way altogether 
 unjust, yet he continued in the possession of it after the death of Sdverius, and 
 was acknowledged for a lawful pope, without proceeding to a new election, or 
 even confirming that which had been made. The conduct which he had observ- 
 ed during this pontificate answered well enough to its unhappy beginning. He 
 had at first approved the doctrines of Authimus, and that of the Acephali, to sat- 
 isfy the empress: but the fear of being turned out by the people of Rome, whom 
 he hated, made him c|uickly recall this approbation; yet he did not, by this, 
 gain the hearts of the Roman». They could not endure an usurper, who having 
 been thecause of the death of their lawful bishop, would abuse them ^o. They 
 accused him also, of having killed his secretary with a bloyv of his Bt, and of 
 having whipped his"! sister's son till he died. The empress who was not satis- 
 fied with him because he had gone back from his word, sent Authimus to Rome 
 with an order to bring him into Greece, and at his departure the people gave 
 him all sorts of imprecations.'' Ih. Vol. I. pnfcc 552. 
 
 We shall only at this time give the details of another column of 
 the history of the popes in the work before us. It speaks for itself 
 — tells how all the evil passions of human nature co-operated in the 
 election and creation of Christ's vicars.
 
 ROJIAN CAXnOLIC RELIGION. 129 
 
 Under head — " An account of the popes, and of the church of Rome, from the 
 time of Sylvester II. to Gregorj- V'll. 'After his death there was a schism in 
 the church of Rome; between £enedicl V'lII. son to Gregory, the count of 
 Frcscati, who was first elected by his father's interest; and one Gregory, who 
 was elected by some Romans, who outed Benedict. He fled to Henry, king of 
 Germany, who immediately raised forces, and marched into Italy to re-establish 
 him. As soon as the king arrived, Gregory fled for it, and Benedict was re- 
 ceived without any opposition. He conferred the imperial crown on that prince, 
 and on queen Chunegonda his wife. Benedict died in the year 1034, and some 
 authors say, that after his death he appeared mounted on a black horse, and that 
 he showed the place where he had deposited a treasure, that so it might be dis- 
 tributed to the poor, and that by these alms, and the prayers of St. Odilo, he was 
 delivered from the torments of the other life. We have only one Bull of bis, 
 in favor of the Abby of Cluny." 
 
 " The count oi J-'rcsrad, that the popedom might be still in his family, caused 
 his other son to be elected in the room of Benedict VIII. though he was not 
 then in orders. He was ordained and called John, which, according to us, is the 
 eighteenth of that name, but according to others the twentieth. 'Tis said, that 
 some time after this pope being sensible that his election was vicious and simo- 
 niacal, he withdrew into a monastery there to sufler jjenance, and that he forbore 
 performing any part of his function, till such time as he was chosen again by the 
 clergy." 
 
 "John X^'III. dying Novr. 7, in the year 1033, Aiberi count of Frescati,caus- 
 «d his son to be seated on St. Peter's chair. He was nephew to the two last 
 popes the tount's brothers, and was not above eighteen years of age at the most. 
 He changed his name of Thophylact into that of Benedict IX. 
 
 Peter Darnien, speaks of him as a man that lived very disorderly, and was very 
 unworthy of that dignity to which he had been advanced by the tyranny of his 
 father. However, he enjoy*-d the popedom very quietly for ten years together; 
 but at last the Romans, weary of his abominable irregularities, outed him, and 
 put up in his place, the bishop of St. Sabina, who took ujjon him the name of 
 Sylvester III. He enjoyed his dignity but three months; for though Benedict 
 voluntarily resigned the popedom, yet he returned to Rome, and with the assis- 
 tance of Fnscati's party, drove out his competitor, and re-assumed the papal 
 chair. But being altogether uncapable of govf ruing it, and having nothing more 
 in- his thoughts than the gratifying of his brutal appetite, he made a bargain about 
 the popedom with John Graciuii, archbishop of the church of Rome, and made 
 it over to him for a sum of money, reserving to himself the revenues due from 
 England to the holy see. This Gracian took upon him the name of Gregory VI. 
 In the meantime, kuig Henry, who had succeeded his futiier, Conrad, in the year 
 1039, being incensefrBgaiiiwt Benedict, who hod sent the imperial crown to the 
 king of Huneary, after he had deflated that prince, resolved to march into Italy 
 to nut an end to that schism. After he came thitlier ho caused these three popes 
 to be deposed in several synods as usurpers, simonists, and criminals. Bcnetfict 
 fled for it ; Gregory VI. was apprehended and afterwards banislied; and Sylves- 
 ter III. was sent back to his bishopric of St. Sabina. He caused Suidger, bishop 
 of Hamberg, to be elected in their stcid, who took upon him the name of Cle- 
 ment 11. and wa.t acknowledged a^ lawful po|)e by all the world. He crowned 
 Henry emperor, and as he vvaa wniliiig upon hiiii home toGermany. died beyond 
 the Alps, October 7, in the year 1017, niin^ months after his elrctioJi. Inimedi- 
 ately upon this, Benedict IX. returns to Rome, and a third time remounts the 
 papal chair, which he held for eight months, notwithstanding the j nipcror had 
 •enl from Germany !'i)p|io, biihopof Bresse. who was consecrated pope under the 
 title of 9feniaHui ll. but he di<l not long enjoy that dignity, for he died of poison, 
 as if supposerl, at Pale^trinn, three and twenty days niter his coronation." 
 
 " It i« no wonder that these pojics have not left us the least monuni< nt of their 
 pastoral vigilanrr. either in councils or by letters, since all th< ir care and aim 
 was how to gratify their ambition and the r» st of their (inssions, without watch- 
 ing over the flock of Jcsuh rhrinl." /)„ l'i„, vol. ii. ;.. 20fi. 
 
 Obsprvp, a Hinpio rount has tlin controlling power of somo three 
 popes (liirinp this ariniiiilHtration ; and may be said to have the ch«Tch 
 under his sppcial niana^omont! Comment on siirh a narrative is un- 
 necessary. — ['rime expired.] 
 
 17
 
 inO DEHATE 0.\ THE 
 
 Half-past '1 o'chi'h, P. M. 
 TisHor PuKCELL riseb — 
 
 I should prefer replying to the last part of my friend's argument at 
 once, but order requires tliat I should follow him through all his points. 
 
 We were told the 'old Irish story' of St. Patrick sailing on a mill- 
 stone. Well, tlic Irish have always been remarkable for telling a good 
 story; but this is told for them, and it is not even witty, much less has 
 it any bearing on tlie argument. There is not, I presume, one educated 
 Catholic in llie world wlio believes a tab; so ridiculous. For my own 
 part, I had never even heard it before ; but I have heard of a life of St. 
 Patrick and St. Bridget, written by some young Protestant wag who gath- 
 ered together all the absurd stories he could find and fjave them this name. 
 My friend must have felt the want of better arguments when he intro- 
 duced such a silly tale, at this debate, for the purpose of weakening 
 the authority of tiie most sacred documents. I will not call this pro- 
 fane, but I must say, that, in my opinion, it is indecorous. 
 
 I have been charjred with excitino- the lauo-hter of this audience, at 
 the expense of my friend; this is not my fault; what alternative but 
 ridicule for the story we have just heard ^ It was thus that Elias 
 mocked the false priests of Baal, by saying, "Cry louder on your 
 god — peradventure he sleepeth and must be awaked." iii. Kings 
 15, 27. 
 
 Admit my learned opponent's reasoning, and you cannot be sure that 
 ever there was such a man as Peter : admit it, and you cannot pre- 
 tend to say that you have had grandfathers or grandmothers, or at least 
 that they had had any themselves : you have never seen them ; how then 
 can you be sure they ever existed ! Sometimes forged notes get into 
 circulation; conclude with my friend, that you may as well part com- 
 pany at once with the genuine notes you may possess, for you can no 
 longer prove them to, any man's satisfaction, to be worth having. I 
 will go siill farther: admit Mr. C.'s curious reasoning, and you can 
 never be sure that such a personage as Jesus Christ ever existed, much 
 less that he wrought miracles to prove the divinity of his mission ! 
 You did not see the miracles ; the book that records them was written 
 long after they occurred ; and many of the most important portions of 
 this very book were doubted of for upwards of 300 years after Christ, 
 even by Luther himself, in the enlightened IGth century ! His author, 
 Du Pin, says there were abundance of false gospels, false epistles, false 
 acts, iu tlie early ages. IIuw then, azcorJinir to his principles, can we 
 be sure of the authenticity of a sini^/e Ijooh of the Old or New Testament, 
 seeing we have no voucher for the truth but the testimony of men ? 
 Here are chasms to be bridged, and links in the chain of scriptural 
 testimony, to be welded, for full .']00 years, ay IGOO years, before the 
 various books of scripture were collected together: and when they 
 were collected, this collection was made by men, who, he says, were 
 liable to be mistaken like ourselves; and who knows to this day but 
 they were mistaken ! Such are the horrid consequences of his illogi- 
 cal reasoning — another sad illustration that, for tne deserter from the 
 Caliiolic church, there is no resource but to deny every thing, to be- 
 come a deist. I would advise my friend, when he goes back to Bethany, 
 to prove in the Harbinger that such a thing as the present controversy 
 never occurred. I am sure that he can make some people believe, all 
 editorials to the contrary notwithstanding, that it is all a hoax.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 131 
 
 He gratuitously mixes up the names of the first five or six popes, in 
 a way unknown to antiquity, whereas Eusebius, Optatus, Tertullian, 
 and Irenaeus, zgree perfectly in the enumeration of Peter, Linus, Anacle- 
 tus, Clement, Evaristus, Alexander — and two of these authors have 
 been translated by Protestants ! The mixture of the books of scrip- 
 ture is for him a far more insurmountable difficulty. There was much 
 disputing for hundreds of years as to the time and place where the 
 epistles and gospels were w-rilten ; must we, therefore, reject them 
 altogether] According to his rule of reasoning, we should reject 
 them; but, thank God, Catholics admit no such rule. A few discre- 
 pancies about the minor points, where there is perfect unanimity as to 
 the substance, only confirm our conviclion of the historian's good faith. 
 And lliere is as much indisputable testimony of the succession in tiie 
 chair of Peter, as there is to prove any book of scripture whatsoever. I 
 might, in fact, say there is more. I have already nailed Dupin to the 
 counter; he leans on a broken reed. He quotes St. Paul, to prove that 
 neither he nor Peter founded the church of Rome, whereas St. Paul 
 says no such thing, but only that they should not indulge in foolish 
 disputes about the ministers who had preached to them the w"ord of 
 life, "I am for Paul, I am for Apollos," but give all glory to Christ 
 who died for them. There were christians at Rome before St. Peter 
 or St. Paul went thither. The Roman soldiers who saw Christ cruci- 
 fied, and witnessed the prodigies attending his death, were, doubtless, 
 many of them, as well as the centurion who smote his breast,' and cried 
 out ^^ truly this man was the Son of God,^^ converted to Christianity; 
 who, when they returned home to Rome, related what they liad seen, 
 to their countrymen, and made olliers converts. The apostles, after- 
 wards, went to Rome and founded tlie see. So it was in England. Long 
 before Gregory sent St. Augustin to that country, there were Catholics 
 there — even in the days of pope Eleutherius. 
 
 What was the use of quoting Waddinglon as an author of infallible 
 weight with me] He could not avoid making splendid acknowledg- 
 ments to the church of Rome. The truth was too strong for iiim. But 
 if we believe a man when he testifies atrainst liimself, is tliat any rea- 
 son we should believe him wlien he testifiesyj^r liimself? In fiict, the 
 inexplicable confusion of which Waddington speaks, is not to be found 
 in any of the historians I have named and whose works I have exhi- 
 bited — from which too I have read to this assembly. If any confusion 
 exist, it is with respect to the time when each succeeded each, al- 
 though in this respect the earliest historians agree, as you have seen. 
 Linus, Cletus, (or Ancncletus,) and Clement, are all spoken of in the 
 epistles of St. Paul. They held a conspicuous rank in the church ; 
 their names and services in these high places were often seen, and 
 hence could have occurred a mixture of their names and of the dates 
 of their pontificates, among now remote histr>rians. But in every case 
 of doubt as to scripture, or ecclesiastical hisldry, the tests of snnnd 
 criticism must be applied, and then the sibyls and the MercuriusTris- 
 megistus are sure to go overboard. " Opiniotutm commcnia delct dics,^* 
 says Cicero, ^* natur.y judiria ronjirmnf.^^ I'inic. exposes falsehood — 
 and confirms truth. What (Cicero says time does, a more rcKperlablo 
 agent, tlm fbiirob, has achieved — she has selected the genuine hooks 
 of scripture and stamped fortjery upon such as were spurious. Had 
 she not done this wher» would have bccu tho Bible] Thcru are other
 
 132 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 ways of detecting error — Dn Pin has told you of them. "A third class," 
 says lie, "forge for their diversion." You have all heard of the late 
 prodigious humbug at KxetiT Hall, England. The king suppresses the 
 Orange lodges. Tlio bigots of llio nation rally. They invite a general 
 convention of their brother bigots throughout the empire; a champion, 
 it was the notorious Dr. McGheo, is invited from Ireland. He pro- 
 fesses to have discovered a document penned by the reigning pontiff, 
 and addressed to the clergy of England and Ireland, that recommended 
 all the crimes that could be thought, of to be committed against the 
 Protestants. The crowd is gathered. The conquering hero comes. The 
 air is vexed with the cries of "down with the Catholics," — "long 
 life to McGhee !" He opens his mouth, but he cannot speak. His emo- 
 tions overpower him — .some broken accents — the title of the document 
 is heard. " Simpleton," says a tremulous voice from the crowd, " the 
 Rev. Mr. Todd, of Trinity college, Dublin, forged and published that 
 document for his own diversion and that of his friends, just to see how 
 he could imitate the pope's Latin, but never dreaming that any man 
 of sense could believe that he intended to impose it on the world as a 
 genuine production of the pope!" McGhee was thunderstruck— the 
 meeting horrified, and one by one they slunk away to their homes, 
 muttering benedictions upon Irish bull-makers! This was diverting; 
 but the consequences of such diversions were not always as harmless 
 to ihe poor Catholics; in fact they had frequently cost them torrents 
 of blood. The celebrated Dr. Parr, Dr. Johnson, Nix, Whittaker, all 
 agree that the Catholic is the most calumniated society on earth. 
 
 My friend should know that the Latin translation of Irenaeus is good 
 authority, according to the soundest rules of criticism. It was made 
 in the lifetime of Irena;us. who wrote the preface to it himself ; by 
 birth a Greek, he was bishop of a Latin see, (Lyons,) and he says 
 he hopes the reader will excuse the roughness of his style, for he had 
 been so long among the Celtaj that he had lost the purity of his native 
 tongue. His proximity to the apostles is proof of the clearness of 
 the testimony in his day. Polycarp was converted in the year 80 — 
 and St. John lived to the close of the first century — so that John 
 taught Polycarp, and Polycarp taught Ironaeus. We all know why 
 Jacob (supplanter,) Sara (Lady,) Isaac, (laughter,) Peter, (a rock,) 
 were so called — was there a reason for the giving of these names to 
 all but Peter"? The reason my friend alleges is no/ it ,- Peter was not 
 the first convert, it was his brother brought him to Christ. John i. 
 41, 42. The word head is figurative; this remark cuts up the web 
 of sophistry my friend has spun around it. The pope is Peter's suc- 
 cessor without being all and every thing that Peter was, without being 
 a fisherman, a swordsman, a man of impulsiveness, a martyr. He 
 succeeds to all the power necessary to guide the church. The other 
 apostles were infallible, as my friend admits, and yet their successors 
 claim not to be so, individually; it is enough for every purpose of 
 good government that they are so when they abide in the doctrine of the 
 entire church. Liberius never erred in faith ; and Du Pin himself is 
 proof of his orthodoxy. He defended the faithful Atlianasius against 
 Constantius and the Arians his accusers ! And yet Mr. C. would 
 have us believe Liberius an Arian ! He preferred, he said, to go into 
 exile rather than break the ecclesiastical laws against his own consci- 
 ence. Is not this one of the most heroic sayings recorded of popes? 
 The formula he signed in exile atPerea, in Thrace, was not heretical,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 133 
 
 but when this act was abused by the Arians, Liberius wept bitterly 
 for the violent interpretation the document was made to bear. The 
 clerrry of Rome appreciated the pontiff's magnanimity, they had no 
 doubt of his faith ; they would have no other pope — Felix, the crea- 
 ture of the emperor Constantius, they justly despised ; and, as in 
 every similar instance, the righteous cause prevailed ; God was 
 stronger than the emperor, truth than error. So did the synod ap- 
 prove Damasus, and reject his rival. 
 
 TerluUian was quoted about the Eucharist, and prayers for the 
 dead ; I will show you how his testimony is in our favor. Talking 
 of Corinth, Ephesus, and other cities, he says to the inquirer, if you 
 want to find the established doctrine and live near Corinth, go to 
 Corinth to find it out; if near Ephesus, to Ephesus; if near to Rome, 
 go to Rome, and so on. This only proves that the doctrine at all 
 these places was exactly the same ; but what is the argument 1 Does 
 it prove that all these churches were equal in authority to Rome 1 
 Suppose a man in New York writes to me to know what the Catholic 
 doctrine in any point is — I tell him he must apply to the bishop or 
 clergy of the churches of New York for information. Does it follow 
 from this that I question the preeminent authority of Rome ■? Does it 
 prove any thing whatever 1 It is so far in our favor that it proves a 
 unifurmi'ty of doclnnc — like the unity of that light which proceeds 
 from a common fountain. 
 
 Mr. C. is stricken with the authority of Peter — it haunts him like 
 a spectre througliout this discussion — it meets him at every turn and 
 corner of his argument, — well ! The Greek word n-Juxvi means rule, 
 guide, govern, as well as " feed." See Homer, passim. " nii^m xaoiv" 
 was the epithet applied usually to Agamemnon. Feed my lambs means 
 all the flock, with the subordinate pastors spread over the universal fold. 
 The evangelist takes care to tell us, in the parable of the temple, that 
 ht xpake if Ihe tanpli: rf hishodn. He explained, as St. John says, more 
 than all tiie books of the whole world could contain, to his disciples, 
 during the forty days from his resurrection to his ascension, spent, as 
 the scripture assures us, in speaking to them of the kingdom of God, 
 as he every where called his church. Mr. C. says there is no priest 
 since Christ. I grant it, in the sense that the high priest holds the 
 place of Chri.'-t, derives iiis power from Ciirist. In this sense Christ 
 employs the priest as his agent, and exercises by him his own priest- 
 hood, in which (iod the Father hath (I's. 109) confiriiK d liin» by an oath 
 forever. But in the sense that no such priest now exists, I cannot agree 
 with the gentleman, for St. Paul says, thirty years after Christ's ascen- 
 sion, "/t»r cvtrij liiL'h pricii lahcn front anwnir men, is ordai iif.d for men, 
 in the thinu,)! that ajijuriiiin hi (ind, that lie may oiler up gifts and sacri- 
 fices for sin. Who can havo compassion om them that are ignorant 
 and on, because he himself also is compassed with infirmity, and 
 therefore he ought, as for the people so also for himself, to oiler for 
 sins; neither doih any man take th<! honor to himself, but he that is 
 called by God as Aaron was." II<1>. eh. 5, v. 1, 2, ."?, 1. Dr-es not 
 all this prove a priesthood distinct from the body of christians, thirty 
 years after C'hrist, as it exists at present 1 Does not St. Paul say, 
 we have an altar of which they cannot partake who serve thi; taber- 
 nacle 1 Hi I), vi. 1.3, 10. And what was that altar for but for the sacri- 
 fices which the priests were taken from among men to offer? — [Time 
 cxpirerl.] 
 M
 
 134 DKBATE ON THE 
 
 TUESDAY, Januauv 17tii, Half-past 9 o'clock, Jl. M. 
 
 Mr. CAMFBELLriscs — 
 
 I intend if possible, to sum up this argument on my second propo- 
 sition this forenoon. I coiiUl wish that iny friend, the bishop would 
 reply to me instead of anlicipatintr propositions in advance, and of 
 reading or speaking of matters wliich are wholly irrelevant. He is 
 even now occasionally on my first proposition ; anon, on the second ; 
 and instantly, on subjects which we have not agreed to debate. He 
 talks about my getting into thickets and circuitous labyrinths, with- 
 out seeming to perceive that I am in pursuit of him. He makes pro- 
 positions and assertions for me which i never uttered, and spends his 
 time in descanting upon his own misapprehensions.* 
 
 I must however, intimate to him and my audience, my purpose of 
 ceasing to respond to any thing he may introduce not in reply to my 
 speeclies. If I must lead the way ; he must follow. I cannot be de- 
 coyed into all the minor and remote points he may originate. I must 
 go on to sustain my propositions, whether he respond to them or not; 
 and shall appropriate half an hour occasionally to such matters in his 
 speeches as may call for my notice. 
 
 I cannot, therefore debate the priesthood, or any foreign topic. But 
 as the gentleman has again reiterated the charge, ''feed vnj sheep,"" 
 and seems to make the whole merits of the question depend on the 
 meaning of the word sheep ; I will once more, and I think only once 
 more advert to it. It Ls universally admitted by Protestants and (Cath- 
 olics, that it is the duty of pastors to feed the Jioch of their charge. 
 If there be a common duty in the ministry of the old and new law, it 
 is this. But it is essential to his argument to make the word icxufos sig- 
 nifying sheep denote clergy. This is an extraordinary assumption. 
 It would be a waste of time to argue against it. Jkit that you may 
 see its absurdity, I will read from the Catholic version a part of the 
 lOtli chap, of John, substituting the bishop's definition for the term. 
 
 " He that cntcreth not by the door into the told of tlie c/erg-y, but cliiiib- 
 eth ups^iiie other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he that cntereth by the 
 door, is the pastor of'thf ckrg-ij. To this man the porter openeth, and the cler- 
 gy hear his voice ; and he calleth his own clergy by name, and kadeth them forth. 
 And when he halJi let forth his own clerg;/, he goeth before them, and the 
 clergy follow him, because tliey know his voice. 1 am the door of the clergy. 
 And how many soever have come are thieves and robbers, but the clergy heard 
 
 them not. , , , . ,.^ ^ , • 
 
 11th verse. I ani the good pastor. The good pastor giveth his life for his 
 clergy. But the hireling and lie that is not the pastor, whose own the clergy 
 are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the clergy and fleeth; and the wolf 
 raveneth and disperseth tlie clergy. And the hireling flccth because he is a 
 hireling; and he hath no care of the clergy. I am the good pastor, and I know 
 mine, and mine know me. As the Fatlit r knoweth me, and I know the Father; 
 andl yi< Id niv life for my clergy. And uthcr clergy 1 have that are not of this fold." 
 
 I s'ubmit'this without comment to the good sense of my audience. 
 
 The gentleman may find it more to his account, or he is more ac- 
 customed to speak to the prejudices of that part of the community 
 
 • The other day the bishop asserted that / affirmed, the apostles wrote only to 
 Greek cities.' This is not found in my speeches; for it is so gross an error that 
 I could not have uttered it, even in a dream. I request the reader to examine 
 my Bneeches for my own assertions; for he will frefjuently find the bishop in- 
 stead of meeting his opponent, demolishing men of straw of his own creation.
 
 ROMA^ CATirOLIC KELIGIOX. 135 
 
 who rely on the authority of the Roman church without asking ques- 
 tions, who are told not to think or reason for themselves ; but to be- 
 lieve in the church — to them he may hold up his map triumphantly. 
 The face of Tcrtullian or Ircnecus on paper is as good to them as ten 
 arguments. But I speak to Protestants as well as Catholics ; and, 
 therefore, I mast reason, for they are a reasoning population. I ex- 
 pect them to decide bj- evidence, and not by autliority. 
 
 Reference has been made to Waddington, on the papal succession. 
 His words icere not correctly quoted by the gentleman, //zi interpre- 
 tation is rather an evasion of the question* It is to the succession it- 
 self he alludes. He cannot make it out : he acknowledges he can- 
 not; nor can any living man. 
 
 To resume the history of the schisms. I will read a few extracts 
 that I have marked in a chronological table of the popes, which will 
 exhibit a bird's eye glance of the fortunes of the Roman see, for lit- 
 tle more than a single centurj'. 
 
 1261. Alexaiidfci' IV. cli(.s June z-\. The lioly sec vacant 3 months and 3 days. 
 Tlie cardinals who proceeded to the ehction, not being able to pitch on one 
 among thenisehe^, chose I'inncis, patriarch of Jerusalem, who takes upon 
 him the name of Urban IV. and is consecrated Sept. 4. 
 1265. After a vacancy of four months, cardinal Guy, the Gross, born in Provence, 
 is elected pope, Feb. 5, and consecrated March 18, under the name of Cle- 
 ment I\'. 
 1268. Clement IV. dies Oct. 29. The holy see lies vacant for two years, nine 
 
 months, and two dajs. 
 1271. The cardinals after a long debate on Sept. l,by waj- of compromisal 
 elected Thibald, arch deacon of Liege, native of I'laccnzia, who was then at 
 I'tolemais. 
 
 1276. Gregory X. dies Jan. 10. Peter of Tarentaise, cardinal bishop of Oslia, is 
 elected the 21st. under the name of Iimocent V. After his death, wliich 
 happened June the 2d. cardinal Ottobon, a Cienocse, is elected in his place, 
 July the 12th, and takes upon him the name of Adrian V. He dies at Viter- 
 bo, Aug. 10. without having been consecrated. Twenty-five days after, 
 cardinal John Peter, the son of Julian, a Portuguese, is elected and consecra- 
 ted. Sept, 1.5, under the name of John XXI. 
 
 1277. John XXI. is crushed by the fall of the ceiling of the palace of Viterbo, 
 and dies May the 20tli. iVov. 25, John Cojestaii is elected, and takes the 
 name of Nicholas III. and consecrated Dec. 26. 
 
 12)10. jNicliolaixlies Aug. 22. The holy see is vacant six months. 
 
 1267. lionorius IV. dies on April !i. 'I he holy see vacant till April of tJie next 
 
 year. 
 1292. IN'icholas die* on April 4. The holy gee vacant two years three months 
 
 and two days. 
 
 1304. The death of Benedict July 0. The holy see remained vacant till the 
 next year. 
 
 1305. Clement V. is chosen pope June .'>. He is crowned at Lyons IVov. 11, 
 and resides in France. 
 
 1328. Lewis of Havaria causes Michael (.'orbario to be chosen anti-pope, who 
 fiiken the nanir: of .Nicholas V. and is enthroned May 12. He was driven 
 out of fltimc, Aug. 4. 
 
 1378. Gregory XL died March 27tli. The cardinals entered the conclave at 
 Rome, April 7th. The Koman) refpiired a Koman or an Italian pojie. The 
 arrh-binhopof Paris is chosen in a tumultuous iiimiiikt, April 9lh,iiiid crowned 
 the I7lh. under the name of Urban VI. The cardinals (1^- into Aiiagnia in 
 Mov, and prtjtmt against the « lection of Urban. They came to Kondi 
 August the 27tli, enter the conclave, and chose, .September 20lli, the cardi- 
 nal of fienrvn, who took the name of {'lenient Vll. wliirli caused a schisnt 
 in the church. 
 
 1379. Clement VTIF. flics to Naples, nud from thence goes to Avignon, where 
 he arrived .'une 10. 'I'he conipetitom for thi' papacy condemn one another. 
 Dn Pin. — }'ol. II.
 
 136 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Touchinrr all that the gentleman has said or may say of the authen- 
 ticity of Du Pin, I observe that the reporters have recorded my de- 
 fence of his reutpation. They will also have stated the fact that I 
 only quote him as authentic on such matters as all other historians tes- 
 tify. I will not then repeat the same defence again and again. 
 
 I know, indeed, that what is authentic with .lansenists may be he- 
 terodox with Jesuits, and vice versa. When the Romanists are 
 hard pressed, they have no English authentic historians. And when 
 we quote a Latin one, we are sure to err in the translation. Bellar- 
 mine is repudiated by one party ; even Barronius is sometimes disal- 
 lowed. Still being in Latin, he is more authentic than any other. 
 We shall therefore take from him a few words in confirmation of what 
 we read from the Decretals of Du Pin. Barronius, vol. vi. p. 5G2, A. D. 
 498, tells us that the emperor's faction sustained the election of Lauren- 
 tius to the papacy. Li this struggle " murders, robberies and numberless 
 evils, were perpetrated at Rome," Nay such were the horrible scenes 
 that, says Barronius, " there was a risk of their destroying the whole 
 city." In the schism between popes Sylverius and Vigilius in the 
 sixth century, the latter, though an atrociously wicked man, " impli- 
 cated," says Barronius, " in so many crimes" that all virtuous men 
 opposed him, was raised to the papal chair. Yet this man was pro- 
 nounced a good pope. Barronius says he is not to be despised though 
 a bad man. Let every man recollect, "says he, that even to the sha- 
 dow of Peter, immense virtue was given of God!" (Bar. vol. vii. 
 p. 420.) 
 
 'In the midst of contentions which rent the Roman Catholic church, 
 pope Pelagiu3 I. was chosen. This pope approved the council which 
 pope Vigilius had condemned. This increased the flames of eccle- 
 siastical war to such a degree tliat the pope could not find a bishop of 
 Rome, who could consecrate him ; and he was constrained to beg a 
 priest of Ostium to do this service; "a thing," says Barronius, "which 
 never had occurred before." (Vol. vii. p. 475.) 
 
 The popes Formosus and Stephen lived in the ninth century. The 
 latter, says Barronius, was so wicked, that he would not have dared 
 to enroll him in the list of popes, were it not that antiquity gives his 
 name. In the exercise of papal infallibility, he not only rescinded 
 the ac/s and decrees of his infallible predecessor Formosus; but collec- 
 ting a council of cardinals and bishops as bad as himself, he actually 
 had the old pope taken out of his grave; and he brought him into 
 court, tried, and condemned him ; cut oft' three of his fingers ; and 
 plunged his remains into the Tiber. See Platina's' life of Stephen 
 Vl. and Barronius do.' 
 
 'Barronius under the j'ear 1004, names three rival popes, who per- 
 petrated the most shameful crimes, and bartered the papacy, and sold 
 It for gold. He, though a Roman Catholic writer, calls them Cerber- 
 us, the three headed beast which had issued from the gates of 
 hell !' 
 
 Hear his words in his life of pope Stephen VII. A. D. 900. ' The 
 case is such, that scarcely any one can believe it, unless he sees it 
 with his eyes, and handles it with his hands, viz. what unworthy, 
 vile, unsightly, yea, execrable and hateful things the sacred apostolic 
 see, on whose hinges the universal apostolical church turns, has been 
 compelled to see, &c.' 
 
 ' Genbrard in his chronicles, under the year 904 says, " for nearly
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 137 
 
 150 years, about fifty popes deserted wholly the virtue of their predeces- 
 sors, being apostate rather than apostolical !' 
 
 'And to crown the climax, Barronius, under the year 912 adds : 
 '• What is then the face of the holy Roman church ! How exceed- 
 ingly foul it is ! When most potent, sordid and abandoned women, 
 (Meretices,) ruled at Rome: at whose will the sees were changed; 
 bishops were presented ; and what is horrid to hear, and unutterable, 
 P'alse Pontiffs, the paramours of these women, were intruded into 
 the chair of St. Peter, &c." He adds, — " For who can affirm that 
 men illegally intruded by bad women, (scortis) were Roman pontiffs !" 
 Again : " The canons were closed in silence ; the decrees of pontiff's 
 were suppressed : the ancient traditions were proscribed ; and the sa- 
 cred ceremonies and usages of former days were wholly extinct. 
 See his Annals A, D. 912.'* 
 
 Again : he relates that pope Alexander was elected by cardinals, 
 some of whom were bribed, some allured by promises of promotion, 
 and some enticed by fellowship in his vices and impurities to give 
 him their suffrages. He refers to various authors who complained 
 that he was famous for his debauchery ; he tells us of his vile exam- 
 ple in keeping a Roman strumpet Vanozia, by whom he had many 
 children; that he conferred wealth and honors on them, and even cre- 
 ated one of them, Ca'sar Borgia (an inordinately wicked man) arch- 
 bishop of the church. Vid. Bar. Annals, vol. xix. p. 413 et seq. 
 
 'The same writer (vol. ix. p. 145) records the election of Bene- 
 dict IX. at the age of twelve years, which he says was accom- 
 plished by gold, and he calls it (" horrendum ac detestabile visu") 
 " horrible and detestable to behold ;" and yet he adds that the whole 
 christian world acknowledged Benedict, without controversy, to be a 
 true pope '. 
 
 Stephen vii. The unparalleled wickedness of this pope is conveyed in a sin- 
 gle line : [//a quidem passiis f.icinorus homo quique utyur et latro ingressus est 
 in ovilc avium, laqueo vitam acleo ivfami exilti vindicc Deo clausit.'] " Thus per- 
 ished this \jllanous man, who entficd tlie sheepfuld as a tliief and a robber; and 
 who in the retribution of God, ended liis days by the infamous death of the hal- 
 ter." (Bar. vol. X. p. 742.) 
 
 Again, Barronius says of the 10th century : 
 
 " VVhat then was the face of t!if Roruaii chiiri'h .' How very filthy, when th« 
 most powerful Jind iit)rdid iiarlots then ruled at Rome, at whose pleasure sees 
 were chanecd and bishoprics were given, and — which is horrible to hear, and 
 most abominable — tln;ir gnllants wcri- olitruded into the see of Peter, and made 
 Jiilse popes ; for who can say they could be lawful popes, who were intruded by 
 such harlots without law ? There was no mention of the election or consent 
 of clergy; the canons were silent, the decrees of popes suppressed, the ancient 
 traditions proscribed, — lust armed with tlie secular power, challenged all 
 things to itself 
 
 What kind of Cardinals, do you imagine must then be chosen by those men- 
 «ters, when nothing is so natural as for like to beget like ? who can doubt, but they 
 in all things did consent to those tli:it chose them ? Who will not easily believe 
 that they animaterl them and followed their footsteps 7 Who unfierstands not, 
 that such men must wish that our Lord would have slept continually, and never 
 have awoke to judgment to take cognizance of, and punish their inioiiities." Ann. 
 Vol. X. 912. 
 
 Now if the grntlrman objects to any of lliesc quotatinn.s which 1 
 have hastily, but I believe most correctly made: the originals are 
 
 * Brownlec'g Letters on Rom. Cath. controversy, pp. 36, 37,38. 
 m2 18
 
 133 DJb'UATK 0.\ THE 
 
 here and let them be examined : For, these beintr admitted it is use- 
 less to object to Du Pill, who never uses so severe lan.n[uage against 
 the popes as Raronius and Genebrand, Platina and others. 
 
 Finally on this subject. I'^or seventy years, there was no pope in 
 Rome, besides all the oilier interregnums. The pope resided at Avig- 
 non in France and left .St. Peter's chair empty. For almost half a 
 centur}' there were two popes, and two lines of popes existing at one 
 time — one reigning in Italy, and one in France. And at last there 
 were three popes — Benedict XIII. the Spanish pope, Gregory XII. the 
 French pope, and John XXIII. the Italian pope. Then the council of 
 Constance met — A. D. 1 HI, and made a fourth, or true pope, and depos- 
 ed the three anti-popes. Such was the 99th schism in the papacy ! Is 
 there, — may I not ask with all these facts before us, — Is there any 
 man on earth that can have the least confidence in any pope as the 
 successor of Peter? A thousand questions the most learned and in- 
 tricate, which no living bishop has time or means to examine, must 
 be decided before he could rationally or religiously believe that the 
 succession from Peter has any existence at all : or, in truth, it cannot 
 be believed but upon mere authority ! 
 
 We now proceed to show that there has been no fixed and uniform 
 method of electing the popes. Indeed history and tradition furnish 
 us with no less than seven difl'erent methods. 
 
 1. Irenffius says, ' that tradition said, that Peter appointed his suc- 
 cessor.' And if he did, why do not all the popes follow his exam- 
 ple 1 for Irenasus is as good authority for this, as for that concerning 
 the founding of the church of Rome. 
 
 2. The priests and people are said to have often elected the first 
 popes ; or, rather the bishops nominated and the people elected. — I 
 ought to have observed distinctly, that there is as much sophistry in 
 the word pope as ever was played ofl" on earth. The word pope, in 
 the east was first applied to all bishops, and is so used in Russia to 
 this day. It was in the 5th century applied to the senior bishops and 
 metropolitans of the west. But it was not until the time of Gregory 
 VII. that it was exclusively appropriated by his own innovation, to the 
 bishops of Rome. 
 
 Hence, in this variety of acceptation, popes many were always in 
 the church, and were elected b)' the people. But the persons first 
 called popes and those now wearing the title, have no other resem- 
 blance than the common name. 
 
 3. The emperors nominated and bishops elected, and the emperors 
 appointed on their own responsibility. 
 
 4. Leo VIII. transferred the whole power of choosing the pope to 
 the emperor, being tired with the inconstancy of the Romans. 
 
 5. Barronius in his Annals, 112, 8, and sect. 141, 1, says, 'They 
 (the popes) were introduced by powerful men and women. // was 
 frequently the price of prostitution !^ 
 
 G. By the decree of pope Nicholas II. in his La^teran Synod : 'The 
 whole business was given over to the cardinals, an order of men, not 
 heard of for 1000 years after Christ. The popes now make the 
 cardinals, and the cardinals make the pope. What a glorious repub- 
 lic ! My friend, a staunch republican, agrees that a few men in 
 Rome should elect a head for the universal church ! But sometimes — 
 
 7. General councils (as that of Constance, Pisa and Basil) took 
 upon themselves the making of popes, and, as we have seen, made a
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 139 
 
 fourth pope, when there were already three acknowledged by different 
 parts of the church. Can these facts be denied ? They canmot mid 
 I presume, will not. 
 
 It is now affirmed that the intrigues of papal elections incompara- 
 bly surpass the intrigues of any court oh earth. The politics of 
 France, of Italy, of Austria, are so incorporated with the schemes of 
 the cardinals, or so bias or bribe them, that on the election of a pope, 
 it is usually said, " Austria has succeeded" or " Spain," or " France 
 has prevailed this time !" In one word, the papal chair is the most 
 corrupt and corrupting institution, that ever stood on earth. The Ro- 
 man Cesars, or the Egyptian dynasties, were pure and incorrupt, com- 
 pared with this mammoth scheme of iniquit)-. On the whole premi- 
 ses, I ask, would the head of the church so jeopardize all the interests 
 of his kingdom as to make the popes of Rome, or faith in them es- 
 sential elements of his system of redemption, or necessary to the sal- 
 vation of any human being] ! — 
 
 To recapitulate. — This being a fundamental and primary essential 
 element of the Roman church, I have labored it more than any other ; 
 and yet I have not said a tithe of what may be said, or even what I 
 have to say on the subject. But I have aimed at establishing four points 
 in demonstrating this proposition. And to adopt the positive and 
 dogmatic style of my learned opponent, may I not say that / have 
 fully proved- — 
 
 1. That the office of pope, or supreme head on earth, has no scrip- 
 ture warrant or authority whatever. Indeed, that the whole beau ideal 
 of a church of nations, with a monarchical head, (which, in the es- 
 timation of the liishop, is equivalent to the word church of Christ,) is as 
 gratuitous an assumption as ever graced a romance, ancient or modern.— 
 
 2. That it cannot be ascertained that Peter was ever bishop of Rome 
 — nay, indeed, it has been shown, that it is wholly contrary to the 
 New Testament history, and incompatible with his office. — 
 
 3. That Christ gave no law of succession. — 
 
 4. That if he had, that succession has been destroyed by a long 
 continuance of tlie jjreatest monsters of crime that ever lived ; and by 
 cabals, intrigues, violence, envy, lust, and schisms, so that no man can 
 believe that one dro|) of apostolic grace is cither in the person or office 
 of Cregory XVI. the present nominal incumbent of Peter's chair! 
 It would be now as easy to prove that Solomon's mosque built by the 
 Turks, is Solomon's tf inplf, in which .lesus Christ stood; as that the 
 popes or church oi Honir' is a christian institution. 
 
 On what, now, rests Koman ( -atiioijcism ? ! If the foundation be 
 destroyed, how can the building stand 1 I need not tell my opponent 
 that this is a blow at the root of his apostolic tree. He feels it, and 
 I am (jlad to think that if any American bishop can sustain these pre- 
 tensions, my learned opponent is that man. He has asked, and ho 
 rnay again ask, where was the Protestant cliurch before Luther's time? 
 In reply, I ;isk, where was the pope before; Constantino's time? 
 He brought Mosheim to offset Waddington and Jones on the subject 
 of the Novatians. And what did Mosheim prove contrary lo theao 
 historians ? Yon have lieard with what success my o|)ponent seeks 
 lo tarnish the reputation of Novatians, Waldenses and I'rotestajits. 
 As a general offs(;t to all his declamation on this subject, I will give 
 you the testimony of a t;ood Roman Catholic : for he was an iTujuLiilor 
 — I mean Ricneriua Saccho, one of tlie most inveterate enemies of
 
 1-10 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 these old fashioned Protestants. I have the original before me, but 
 shall not read it unless it be required : The translation reads : 
 
 "Aiiion;^ all t!ic sects" (th(Me wire sects, you peictivc, before the Reforma- 
 tion) " which still are, orhave bci n, there is not one more pernicious ty the church 
 than that of the Leonites;" (a name by whicii the VVaklenscs were sometimes 
 called,) "anil that for three reasons. The 1st is, because it is the oldest, for 
 some say it hath existed from the time of pope Sylvester; olhcrsj'iom the lime 
 of the Apostles. The 2nd, because it is more general, for there is scarce any 
 connfry tohere this sect is not. The 3rd, because wlien all others sects beget 
 horror by their blasjjliemies against (i!)d,this of the Leoiii*< s hath a great slio'u 
 of piety because thev Wvc justly bijbremcji, and believe all thins^s rightly con- 
 cerning God and all the articles contained in the creed. Only they blas- 
 phemed the church of Rome." Rein. .S'nn/iO. edit. Gritzcr, O. S. J. cap. 4. 
 page 54 
 
 I could-.give much more Roman Catholic testimony in proof that the 
 doctrines of Protestantism continued from the days of the first Roman 
 schism till now : but this at present would seem superfluous. Nor 
 will I speak now of tlie old English and Irish churches which the 
 Roman bishops sought in vain for many centuries to bring into their 
 fold. There is nothing betrays a less discriminating regard to the 
 facts of ecclesiastical history, than to ask where was the church be- 
 fore the days of Luther 1 — But I hasten to the point yet before me, 
 which, like some others, I may not remember, was reserved for a more 
 convenient season. It was an objection drawn in part from Eph. iv. 
 11, and from the alleged difficulty of obtaining a ministry but 
 through the popes of Rome. 
 
 This passage, viewed in common with Matth. xxviii. 18, 19, seems to 
 me, rather to remove all difficulty on the sui)ject. Matth. xxviii. gives 
 all authority to the apostles to set up the christian church, and pro- 
 mises them miraculous aid, till the work was done. " I am with you 
 continually till the conclusion of thi.^ stale — sac t>ic a-uvnAtsa! t'.v aiwvsf. Of 
 which I must here speak more particularly. At present it suffices to 
 repeat the fact of such a commission, and such a promise to the 
 apostles. 
 
 Now let us hear Paul. When Christ ascended, "he s;ave gifts to 
 men." — What, let me ask, were they ] " He gave apostles, prophets, 
 evangelists, pastors, and teachers" — all miraculously endowed. They 
 were not raised up, out of the church ; but given directly from heaven 
 to the church, or for building a cliurcb ! What, again, let me ask 
 Paul, were they given for] "For the perfecting of the saints:" or, 
 according to the Douay bible, " for the consummation of the saints 
 unto the work of the ministry, unto the edifying of the body of Christ." 
 And for how long, let me ask, still more empnatically ] " Until" (it 
 is Mi/_gi in Greek, donee in Latin, adverbs expressive of the time how 
 long) " Until we all come into the unity of the faith and knowledge 
 of the Son of God, to a perfect man''' (not men — that is, to a perfect 
 body) " into the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ." — The 
 Roman church being judge, then, these officers were given to the church 
 after the ascension, for a special work, and for a limited time. — Till, 
 out of Jews and Gentiles, they had made one pehfect man, or church. 
 
 Now, these apostles acted in exact accordance with the nature of 
 the case. They preached, baptized, and congregated disciples, in 
 particular places. These disciples had, from the nature of the case, 
 to receive from them the whole christian institution. They knew 
 neither what to believe or do, but as they were taught by these in- 
 spired men. — Hence, the apostles preached, baptized, taught, served
 
 RO:aAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 141 
 
 tables, and dispensed all ordinances, and performed all oiRces among 
 them, till the body of the church had learned its dut}-. Then they 
 taught them to select from among them'selves certain officers — gave 
 them the qualifications, and showed them in their own persons how 
 they were to be set apart and ordained to these offices. — For example, 
 the deacons, or public servants of the church of Jerusalem, the 7nother 
 church. Again, they taught them to send out missionaries or evan- 
 gelists, as in the church of Antioch ; and finally, to ordain elders or 
 bishops over the flock, as soon as they had persons qualified for that 
 office, — They taught the church, then, to have bishops and deacons, 
 and evangelists (or general missionaries, as the case may be). They 
 gave the law, the qualifications, and the mode of inducting them into 
 office. They never taught any one church to depend always upon 
 Jerusalem, or Antioch, or Rome, or Corinth; but they taught the ne- 
 cessity of all these offices — gave the qualifications of the officers, and 
 assisted in ordaining them in many particular congregations, of which 
 congregations with the same laws, authority, and order, there never 
 have been wanting thousands from that day till now. 
 
 Order has its foundation in nature. The highest officers were call- 
 ed seniors or ciders ; because of their age ; and bishops or overseers, 
 because of their office. Deacons, not having so much authority and 
 glory, and not having a salary, like bishops, there never has been 
 among them any controversy about succession ! But had there been 
 any great honor or reward iii that office, we should doubtless have had 
 as much ado about an unbroken line ; and could as easily find one in 
 this case as in that of the bishops of Rome, or Constantinople. The 
 same order obtained in the christian cliurch — I mean, substantially, 
 that obtained in the synagogues of the Jews. The same word 
 WfWoi/TWiv or presbytery, is found in the New Testament in reference 
 to both the synagogue and the church. " Stir up the gift," office " that 
 is in thee, by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery." Indeed, 
 the synagogue, mucli more than the tabernacle or temple, was the 
 archetype of the order, which the apostles set up. In every case the 
 question was put to tlic people, " Look out, choose out, select from 
 among yourselves," &.c. 
 
 My friend is almost a Protestant on some points. He occasionally 
 recommends the bible to his flock, and he says that tlie ordinances of 
 religion do not receive tlieir virtue from an uiilu>!y or holy pope — that 
 he has his authority to administer from Ciirist rather than from the 
 pope. 
 
 Indeed, I know not why the spirit of God should be promised 
 through such a wretched and polluted channel as the po])es of liome, 
 rather than to operate from hr>aveii in all its holy influences upon those, 
 who by its appointment, are chosen and ordained by prayer, fasting, 
 and imposition of hands, as deacons or bishops of the christian con- 
 gregations. We lose nothing then, in abandoning the leaky and 
 sinking ship of pontifical authority in the Roman ("albolic church. — 
 [Time expired.] 
 
 Ilft/f-past. 10 o'clock, Jl. M. 
 liisiiop Pi;ucEi.i. riic» — 
 
 IMy friend has sot me the example of recajiilulating. I shall not 
 fail to do so in due time. He has talked around one of the invincible 
 texts of Scripture which i had adduced for Peter's headahip : " Simon,
 
 142 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, (the plural) that he 
 may sift you as wheat :. but I have prayed for thee, that thv faith 
 fail not; and thou, Ijciiijr converted, confirm thy brethren." St. Luke 
 xxii. 32. And he gratuitously asserts that " Confirm" here means only 
 " Comfort." But will any man say that such an interpretation has 
 weakened the force of my ar<Tumcnt from the text, or destroyed the 
 avowed effect and object of the Savior's prayer, namely that the faith 
 of Peter should never fail, and that, in it, he should confirm his bre- 
 thren 1 Let him shew that Christ addressed a special prayer, for any 
 similar purpose, in favor of all, or of any of the other apostles, and 
 then he may summon Christ's appointed chief of the apostolic band, 
 to surrender his preeminence. If he cannot do this, Peter must for 
 ever retain his supremacy — not of age, nor of talents, nor of priority 
 of call, nor of conversion, but of office. 
 
 He again asserts, for Mr. C. seems to tliink we must grant every 
 thing to his assertions, that I cannot find a solitary proof in Irenscus, 
 or in any other author of christian antiquity, that Peter was ever bish- 
 op of Rome. Now in p. iG9 of this Protestant edition of Irenaeu3 
 we find that warrant. It is in chap, L book 3, "against heresies," 
 He speaks as follows : 
 
 "For we have not learned the disposition, or ccoiiom_v, of our salvation fioin 
 any othtrs than those through whom the gospel came unto us, which, iudeefl, 
 they first preached, and afterwards, by tlie will of God, delivered to us in writ- 
 ing, to be the pillar and ground of our faith. Nor is it hivvful to say, as-some 
 do, who pretend to correct the apostles, that thoy preached before they had had 
 perfect knowledge. For after the Lord had arisen from the dead, they were 
 clothed with virtue from on high by the Holy Spirit who came down upon them, 
 and they were filled with all knowledge and attained to perfect understanding; 
 they went to the ends of the earth announcing to us the good things which are 
 from God, and proclaiming heavenly peace to men, having both all and each of 
 them the gospel of God. Thus Matthew, in their own language, wrote the 
 gospel scripture in Hebrew, while Teter and Paul were evangelizing and found- 
 ing the church of Rome. After their departure, Mark, a disciple, and Peter's 
 interpreter, likewise announced to us the prescribed doctrines; next John, the 
 disciple of the Lord, who also reposed on his breast, published likevvise a gospel, 
 residing at Ephesus, in Asia. And all these delivered to us the doctrine of One 
 God, the Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the Lord and the prophets, 
 and one Christ, the Son of God; to whom, he who assenteth not, despiseth the 
 partakers of the Lord, despiseth Christ the Lord, despiseth the Father, and is 
 condemned by himself, for he resisteth and opposeth his own salvation, which 
 all heretics do." 
 
 Tracing the succession of bishops in the same chair, he always make Peter tlic 
 first bishop, as I have already shewn from the very next page — 170, of this 
 volume. 
 
 There is Irenaeus, a writer of the 2d century — year 150. I shall 
 follow the devious track of the gentleman as well as I can. 
 
 My friend denied that I could adduce a solitary testimony to prove 
 that the legate of the pope presided over the first great general coun- 
 cil of the church, after the council at Jerusalem. Now I am going 
 to adduce Baronius, p. 295, year of Christ 325, year of Sylvester 12, 
 Constantine 20 : (how faithful and exact our ("atholic histories are !) 
 " Before we proceed to narrate the history of the acts of tiie IVicene council, 
 I pray you, friendly reader, to pause with me, to notice the most eminent prelates 
 ot that illustrious company of saints, that most flowery crown of fathers, and most 
 distinguished assemblage of holy bishops, whose names shine forth from amidst 
 the obscurity of so ancient a period. He who first attracts our attention, con- 
 spicuous for having been twice legate, is Osius, bishop of Cordova, in Spain, re- 
 presenting the bishops of Spain, and, as we have already said, holding the place 
 (the Latin is still stronger — personam gerens — personating) Sylvester, bishop of
 
 K03IAN CATHOilC RELIGION. 143 
 
 Rome, atid chief of the legstes, hi^ colleagues. Isoh, continues Baronius, what 
 good ground could there liave iseen for Osius' '■igning before his colleagues, the 
 re<»^tes, before the bishops of the second and third sees of the christian world, 
 viz. Alexandria and Antioch, and before Coerilian, the primate of all Africa, not 
 to speak of others, unless h*" held the place and represented the person of the 
 highest power of all? He then quotes the roininenceuient of tlie letter which 
 the legates, immediately after the council, addressed to the pope: "To Sylves- 
 ter, most blessed pope of the city of Rome, and entitled to all reverence, Osius, 
 bishop of the province of Spain' and city of Cordova, Victor and Vincentius, 
 priests of the city of Rome, appointed by your direction," &c. &c. So far 
 Baronius. 
 
 Nat. Ales, says, vol. vii. p. 68, " The synod of Nice, first of the oecunienicals, 
 was convoked by the emperor Constantine, with consent of the Roman poutitf, Syl- 
 vester — the president of the council, in the name of St. Sylvester, a;id his le- 
 gates were Osius, bishop ofCor^lova, \'itusor \ito,and Vincentius, priesti," Arc.tc. 
 It was the custom of the bishop of Rome to send a bishop and two 
 inferior ecclesiastics to represent him in the councils. Osius was 
 legate and Victor and Vincentius were his two assistants. 
 
 Natalis Alexander says the same, p. G8, 7 vol. Fleur}', another most 
 authentic historian, a man of prodigious learning, a contemporary of Bos- 
 suet, and one who has been very severe against the popes, so that we 
 have quarreled with him for it, says the same, p. 107 and 108. He adds : 
 "St. Athanasius says that O.-ius jin sided at all the. councils, and it is certain 
 that he preside-! at the council of Sardica, twenty two years later." 
 
 Now we cannot sec why a simple bishop of Cordova should have presided, 
 by any right of his, over all the bishops ot the world, even those of Alexandria 
 and Antioch, who were present in person — Gelasius of Cyzicum says expressly 
 that Osius held the place of SyKester, bishop of imperial Rome, with the priests 
 Victor (or Vito, as he was also called) and Vincentius: and his testimony should 
 not be suspected, as he was a Greek and writing the acts and records ol Greeks. 
 Subseouent usage is conforn)able to whr.t is here observed. — In the acumenical 
 councils whose acts have come do«n to us, we see the papal legates at the head, 
 and they are ronmionlv, a bishop :jnd two priests." 
 
 Here are Baronius, Noel Alexander, Flenry. — The gentleman says 
 that I deal in rhetoric, but he may say what he pleases ; I deal in 
 nothing but stubborn facts. These are the irresistible arguments by 
 which Catholic truth is upheld. 
 
 As for Peter's executing the decrees of the coimcil of Jerusalem, 
 I said no such thing. He acted with the rest — but he did, I main- 
 tain, lead, and his authority was wanting to give sanction to every 
 decree. When he spoke, the " much di-ipulini^''^ ceased. He spoke 
 humbly, but autlioritatively, James and Paul and Barnabas acquiesced. 
 The opposition to his £^f;i/?7fA/;ii^ was wrong and much in the spirit of 
 more modern oppo-^^ilicri, i)ut Peter's authority tlien as it lias ever done 
 prevailed ; for if any tiling is certain in historical testimony, it is proved 
 that his authority was acknowledged to reside, in ancient days, in 
 his successors. So is it now acknowledged. We were referred to 
 10. John, wliere Christ speaks of the fold and the sheep; and ob- 
 jections were made to rny interpretation of the words " lambs" and 
 " sheep," as contradictory and absurd. But now mark, my friends. 
 the signal difference between the two passages. In 10. Joiin, the 
 Savior speaks of s/itrp alnnc. He says the sheep are scattered, and 
 never mehlions Imnhn. V\ bin therefore (/hrist says in the otiu r jias- 
 sage, feed my lambs, do we not remark that lir; afterwards cliangf;9 
 the j)assag<; and says, ferul my sheep ! arid as I observed yesterday 
 Christ means pastors, by the sheep whom the lambs, follow. 
 Wide as the world, is Christ's fold — and there are over its va- 
 rious provinces, or pastures, many siuphcrds, but one above the
 
 144 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 rest, whose duty it is to watch over them all, to see they do their duty. 
 — This is Peter, this is reasonable, it is as it ought to be. Thus, the 
 rock, the keys, the charge to confirm his brethren, the acknowledge- 
 ment of Paul that he went to see Peter, lest he might have run in vain, 
 the acknowledgment of the authority of Peter's successors, the very 
 necessity of such an office to keep order, &c. All this is proof positive 
 from scripture and history and reason, of the supremacy of the chair 
 of Peter, and not rlietoric — or if so, it is logical rhetoric. Let not 
 scripture, history and reason be thus dismissed in the nineteenth cen- 
 tury, with a wave of the hand. 
 
 That eternal Du Pin, my friends, you have had my reasons against 
 his authenticity as a Catholic historian : certainly he is no testimony 
 against the Catholics. All my friend can adduce to prove that the au- 
 thenticity of Du Pin was ever recognized in this country, is that some 
 Catholic paper in Kentucky, as he says, allows his authenticity — 
 "Who the editor of this paper is, I know not. He may be a respectable 
 Catholic. The bishop of Bardstown has nothing to do with it, the 
 editor is liable to be deceived. His opinion ought to have no weight 
 whatsoever in this controversy. 
 
 What led my friend into such an error respecting the book itself, 
 was, probably his seeing prefixed to it the censor's license for its im- 
 pression; but he should have known that the king of France appoints 
 such persons as he thinks fit, to examine whether publications con- 
 tain any thing dangerous to the state. And Louis Philip is more 
 strict in this respect than ever Charles X. was, who was exiled 
 from France for the same thing. 
 
 The Doctors of Sorbonne, to whom the work was submitted, may 
 have said the book contained nothing against faHh and morals. Tliey 
 do not say that he is an authentic Catholic historian. We apply criticism 
 to every work, and our maxim is nullius addictus jurnre in verba ma- 
 gistri. The opinions of two or three Doctors of Sorbonne form 
 no rule of faith for Catholics, although, in this instance, they say 
 nothing, I presume, to which we may not very safely assent, while 
 we describe Du Pin in his proper colors. After all Du Pin says noth- 
 ing that does not go to prove my views, if considered fairly, al- 
 though he was expelled the Sorbonne for heterodox opinions ! 
 
 Now there were vacancies, breaks, in the chain, but the lapse of 
 a few years; before binding together the links of the apostolic succes- 
 sion, does not affect the great principle for which I am contending. 
 We are no believers in metempsychosis: or that, like the supposed divinity 
 of the Lama of Thibet, the soul of a deceased pope goesby ahop, skip 
 and jump, right off, into his successor. We will wait six months, or six 
 years, to find a good pope. Time is taken for this, since so much de- 
 pends on the result. Now in this chain were some bad popes; we 
 weep over the fact, my friends, and lament it. Mr. C. ought to have 
 thrown the mantle over his shoulders and walked backwards with me 
 and covered these frailties, for the sake of our common Christianity. 
 The mass of the succession is sound. But there were some bad points. 
 
 It is not the narne,h\\i the religion tliey represented, that we regard. 
 Whether the stream of testimony came to us through conduits of 
 gold, of silver, or of brass, it is not the channel of communication we 
 regard, but the pure chrystal and transparent waters of celestial doc- 
 trine, of divine truth. Men are liable to err — Jesus Christ said there 
 must needs be scandals. We look for them ; we expect them to occur
 
 ROMAK CATHOLIC REtlGIOX. 145 
 
 while there is yet remaining one single human being on this earth. 
 None but God is perfect and man is good only by divine assistance. 
 I have no special apology to offer for a pope who is a bad man. He 
 should be the pattern of the flock from the heart. He should be the 
 salt of the earth — the light of the world. He should remember that 
 the " mighty shall be mightily tormented ;" and that " a most severe 
 judgment shall be for them that bear rule if they walk not according to 
 the law." I should notbesurprisedif these bad popeswereatthis moment 
 expiating their crimes in the penal fires of hell. But what is the pro- 
 per inference to be deduced from their melancholy aberrations 1 If 
 they like Lucifer have fallen, bright light, from the firmament of re- 
 ligion, do the heavens no longer proclaim the glory of God 1 Do 
 the praises of God resound there no more 1 Why it is truly wonder- 
 ful, that, bad men as they were, they should not only have never se- 
 vered themselves from the faith but should have been the instru- 
 ments of perpetuating sound doctrine at home and abroad. Nothing, 
 my friends, gives me more faith in the genuineness and truth of our 
 holy religion, than when in reviewing the history of these disgraceful 
 enormities, I find the church, in the very midst of scandal, enough to 
 blacken and overthrow any earthly institution, still supported and up- 
 held by the almighty hand of God. A church that has stood through 
 all that the genrieman has laid to the charge of the merely mortal 
 men who have presided for a season over its destinies. A few of 
 
 THEM ERRED IN MORALS, KVT NOXE OF THEM IN FAITH ; SOUnd doCtrine 
 
 and sound morals were seen and admired, during these sad eclipses, 
 and infidel nations were, during that passing obscurity in Rome, re- 
 joicing in the beams of the orient sun of justice, heralded by Catho- 
 lic missionaries. Let this be borne in mind when my learned oppo- 
 nent undertakes to j)rove tliat the pope is the sea-serpent! And let 
 my Protestant friends understand that the Roman Catholics detest 
 immorality as much as Ihey can, wherever it may be found : and most 
 of all, where superior virtue was required by exalted station. We 
 too had labored for a reformation, not of God's truth, for it needed 
 none, but of men's morals which are always liable to corruption. 
 We may cry out like the ajJOSlU's, wiien we Ijehold such scandals, O 
 Lord, save us ere we perish — but we hear the divine answer, " why 
 fear ye, G you of little faith." No cloud has ever vet impended 
 
 OVER the church, THAT THE RAINBOW OF PROMISE DID NOT SHINE 
 THRdUOH THE GLOOM. 
 
 The ohjrcl of the institution of the church being no other than to 
 establish the true worship r>f (Jod, by thi; ovrrtbrow of idolatry, and 
 to sanctify a chosen people for everla-sting life, by the purest virtues 
 of religion, we are not to wonder that Satan, the jealous enemy of 
 human luip|)ines8, should exert his utmost powers to obstruct the be- 
 nevohMit design. In fulfilment of the Savior's prediction, and from 
 the very nature; of man, it was necessary that persecutions, heresies, 
 schisms and domestic scandals should happen; but .lesus (^lirisl had 
 likewise foretold that they should not prevail. The Pagan tyrants of 
 the earth may rage; the courage and jiatience of our martyrs will tri- 
 umph and multiply. I[('resi{!s may start u|) in various forms, and 
 for a while seduce thousands into errr)r ; they will, at bnglli, sink 
 back again into the dark abyss from which thry first emerged. Gui- 
 ded by the spirit of truth, and confirmed into the unity of her belief, 
 the church will ever successfully oppose to their impotent attempts, 
 
 N 19
 
 MO DKnATi: o> rni: 
 
 the promises of her divine Founder, the antiquity of her faith, the con- 
 sent of nations, the order of hor hierarchy, the holy severity of her 
 discipline, the hrirrht example of thousands of her faillifiil children, 
 the sacred history of her doctrines, and the decisions of her councils. 
 Schisms may at times perplex and divide the faithful, but the church 
 by her authority will either close the breach, or separate the refracto- 
 ry members from her communion. The vicious lives of some of her 
 children may contradict and disgrace their christian profession, they 
 may violate her laws, they may insult her authority, and invade her 
 sacred rights ; they never will he able to overturn her ministry, to 
 shake her hierarchy or to alter her doctrine. She will never cease to 
 warn sinners of their duty, to correct, to instruct, to direct mankind 
 in the way of salvation. 
 
 By her persevering zeal for God's honor, by the force of her ex- 
 hortations, by the solemnity of her public service, by the morality of 
 her precepts, and by her practice of the evangelical counsels, she will 
 continue to prepare souls for heaven, while she exhibits to the world 
 a rich assemblage of the most heroic virtues. It is thus, that our his- 
 tory attests the care which God has taken of his church. 
 
 The whole number of popes has been nearly two hundred and sixty 
 Of these, the first forty were saints, or martyrs, a small number only, not 
 more than twenty, can be called bad men ; the rest were remarkable 
 for eminent virtue, charity, zeal, learning and patronage of letters. 
 Peter was twenty-five years bishop of Rome ; and non videhis annos 
 Petri, you w'ill not be pope as long as Peter — is a proverb which 
 every new pope hears. Pius VI. and Pius VII, came nearest to the 
 years of Peter, but they did not attain them. But says the gentle- 
 man, the pope transferred his sec for some time from Rome, to 
 Avignon. I grant it; but have I not said, were he a wanderer in A- 
 byssinia, he would still retain his title and authority. 
 
 We were told of a council which cashiered three popes, and made 
 a fourth ! My friends, what sophistry is this? Does my friend think 
 he is addressing people but one remove from barbarism, instead of the 
 enlightened and liberal citizens of the queen of the west? I wish him 
 to understand that we, at least, are equal to the people of Bethany in 
 intelligence. Among these citizens, I thank God, my lot is cast. 
 Does Mr. C. — suppose thai they cannot answer his sophistry by the 
 true statement of the fact 1 The council cashiered three doubtful popes, 
 or rather no popes at all, and elected one true pope. What has become 
 of his logic T 
 
 Stephen VI. had thebody of Formosus dug up and cut off his fingers. 
 My friend has taken this from Pope and McGuire's discussion, and has 
 seen the answer there. In this unpardonable act of Stephen, we at 
 least discern zeal for the rules of discipline, which forbade the trans- 
 ferring of a bishop from one see to another. For this offence the need- 
 less act of severity was done. It shews the popes expose what they 
 think wrong in popes ; just as my friend would know nothing of their 
 misdeeds, if Catholic historians had not had sincerity, piety and zeal 
 to denounce them. Genebrard said that the popes were more often 
 apostates than apostles. I am sure that, in this case, truth was sac- 
 rificed to wit, and faithful testimony to virtue as well as faithful ex- 
 position of vice, for the gingle between the words apostates and 
 apostles. But Genebrard says not, absolutely, they were apos-
 
 BOMAN CATHOLIC BELIGION. 147 
 
 tates, but that they had fallen short of the virtues of their predeces- 
 sors. 
 
 My friend quarrels with the name, cardinals. The name is Latin and 
 as old as that language. But I will not contend for the name. He 
 says the cardinals, were not so called for 1000 years, but did not show 
 his authority. This was, however, the title given to priests charged 
 with the care of large churches, as far back as the year 150, or at 
 least in 300. But call them what you may, they were a portion, and 
 an eminent portion, of the Roman clergy in all ages. Now, as for- 
 inerly, there are cardinal priests, cardinal deacons, and even cardinal 
 laymen. They are a superior order of men, the patrons of the arts 
 and sciences, as well as the ornaments and supports of the church, 
 and the benefactors of the poor. They liberally entertain and treat our 
 travelling fellow-citizens with great civility — for instance, Mr. Dewey, 
 an Unitarian minister, lately in Rome, and cardinal Weld, a dis- 
 tinguished English nobleman, in whose father's castle, at Lulworth, 
 if I am not mistaken, our fiist archbishop, the cousin of Charles Car- 
 roll of CarroUton, was consecrated bishop. — Read Mr. Dewey's ele- 
 gant and thrilling pages. They will almost make you a Catholic. 
 Certainly they will liberalize your minds already raised far above vul- 
 gar prejudices. The c^.rdinals elect the pope — but if the pope creates 
 the cardinals, surely he does not create his own electors ! 
 
 Mr. C. — has not told us yet, from what true and holy apostolic, 
 church, the Roman church apostatized. He has told you of the Albi- 
 genses, Vaudois, Novatians, Donatists, &c., but they furnish no con- 
 tinuous church. They are, I say again, ignoble ancestry. My friends, 
 read history for yourselves if you wish to sec what a miserable set of 
 wretches these sectarians were. 
 
 My friend says, that Peter was married — but I defy him to prove 
 that he retained his wife after he became a bishop. I will meet Mr. 
 Campbell on this doctrine of the celibacy of the clergy, and shew 
 him in the words of St. Paul, 1st Cor. i. 20, and in those of Jesus 
 Christ, Matthew xix. 1-2, whose expressions, although he was purity 
 itself, I dare not repcsat in .Mr. C — 'a fastidious cars, " that there are 
 not many wise uccordinf^ to thejhsh.''^ St. Paul, who was a bachelor, 
 says, 1st Cor. vii. " I would that all were as myself. I say to the 
 unmarried and the widows ; it is good for them if they so continue 
 even as 1. v. 8. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the tilings 
 that belong to the Lord, how he may please Cod. But he that is with 
 a wife, is solicitous for the tilings of the v.orld, how lie may please 
 his wife : and he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the vir- 
 in thinketh on the tilings of the Lord, that siie may be holy both iti 
 ody and spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of tlio 
 world, how she may please her husband." Read the entire clinptpr 
 Marriage was ordaini-d by Almighty (iod for tlie propagation of the 
 human race. The (Jathoiic church not only a)>proves the institution, but 
 teaches that f'hrist hath exalted it to the dignity of a sarraiufiit. St. 
 Paul, while he wishes all to be like himself, unmarried, still acknow- 
 ledges that all are not called to that state; and they who cannot prac- 
 tise continence, l>e wishes to marry; so does the Catholic church. Her 
 ministers are not allowed to lake a vow of chastity until they have at- 
 tained an age when they can, aided by divine grace, d(>cide on their 
 capability for its pure obuervauce. And now, young iadisu and geu-
 
 148 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tlemen, take care you nevpr become wliat Mr. C. would make you, 
 the successors of Paulicians. They condemned all connubial ties, 
 eaying that marriage came from the evil principle. But, married or 
 single, let us not forget that our days in this life are numbered ; the 
 gayest are frequently death's earliest victims. "For the fashion of this 
 world, says the apostle, passeth away." Let priests then do good, even 
 as Catholic religious have done, to the whole human family, renounc- 
 ing the ties that would bind them to a few only, that ihey may be like 
 God, the fathers and benefactors of many. 
 
 Mr. C. spoke of ministering to the sick. I thank him for the hint. 
 lu deeds of charity, the Catholic priesthood, the Catholic religious of 
 all orders, are unsurpassed. Their ' labor of love' is seen in the hospital, 
 the pest-house, the dungeon, the orphan asylum ; where the cholera 
 makes its dreadful ravages, where the pestilence stalketh at noonday, or 
 midnight! Hear Waddington — 
 
 " The Ursulines. Of tlxt more inodern orders, there is also oncwhich may seem 
 to require our notice — tliat of the I'rsuliries. Its origin is ascribed to Angela 
 di Brescia, about tlie year 1537, tliough the saint from whom it received its 
 name, Ursula Benincasa, a native of Naples, was born ten years afterwards. Its 
 character was peculiar, and recalls our attention to the primitive form of ascetic 
 <leTotion. The duties of those holy sistei-s were the purest within the circle of 
 human benevolence — to minister to the sick, to reheve the poor, to console the 
 miserable, to pray with the penitent. These charitable offices they undertook 
 to execute without the bond o{ any community, witiiout tlie oblig^ation of any 
 monastic vow, without any separation from society, any renouncement of their 
 domestic duties and virtues. And so admirably were tliose offices, in millions of 
 instances, performed, that had all other femnle orders been really as useless ai»d 
 vicious, as they are sometimes falsely described to be, the virtues of the Ursu- 
 lines had alone been sufficient to redeem the monastic name. 
 
 But it is very far from true, that these other orders were either commonly dis- 
 solute or (generally useless. Occasional scandals have engendered universal 
 calumnies." Waddlnoto 's Church Hist. p:ige 325, New York edit. 1885. 
 
 Mr. C. spoke of bad popes, Nicholas III. &c. &c. and of monks.— . 
 Hear again — what this Protestant historian says of them and of this 
 very Nicholas. 
 
 " It is not without reason that Roman Catholic writers vaunt the disinterested 
 devotion of the early Mendicants — how assiduous they were in supplying (he 
 spiritual wants of the poor, how frequent in prisons and in hospitals, how forward 
 to encounter the fire or the pestilence; ho*v instant on all those occasion? where 
 the peril was imminent and the reward not in this world. They were equally 
 distinguished in another, and not less righteous, duty, the propagation of Chris- 
 tianity among remote and savage nations. We have noticed, in a Ibrnier chap- 
 ter, the method by which the gospel was introduced into the north of Europe 
 before the middle of the eleventh century, In the twelfth, we observe Boles- 
 laus, duke of Poland, dpening the path for its reception in Pomerania by the 
 sword; and in like nlanner, both the Sclavonians and Finlanders, were prepared 
 for conversion by conquest. Again, Urban VIII. consecrated Mainhard, an un- 
 successful missionary, b'rshop of tlie Livonians, and proclaimed a holy war against 
 them; the bishop conquered hVs see, and promulgated at the head of an anny 
 the tidings of evangelical concord. The same methods were pursued b}- Innocent 
 III. But from that time forward we find nmch more frequent mention of pious 
 missionaries, whose labours were directed to accomplish their great work by 
 legitimate, or, at least, by peaceful means. It may be true, that some of them 
 were satisfied with mere nominal conversions, and that others had chiefly in view 
 either their own advancement, or the extension of the papal sovereignty. But 
 there were likewise many who were ariimated by the most admirable motives, 
 and whose exertions, if they failed of complete success, failed not through any 
 want of disinterested devotion. The missiotis of the thirteenth and fourteenth 
 centuries were principally directed to the north of Asia. In 1245, Innocent IV. 
 sent an embassy, composed of Dominicans and I'ranciscans, to the Tartars; and 
 a frlendlv communication was so maintained, that the envoys of Abaca, their
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 149 
 
 kin^, were present, in 1271, at the second council of Lyons. Nicholas III. (in 
 1278) and Nicholas I\'. (in 1289,) renewed those exertions. John of Monte 
 Corvino, a Franciscan, was distino;aished during; the conclusion of the century 
 bv the success of his labors; and in 1307, Clement V. erected an archiepiscopal 
 see at Cambalu, (Pekin,) which he conferred upon that missionary. Seven otner 
 bishops, also Franciscans, were sent to his support by the same pope; and this 
 distant branch of the hierarchy was carefully nourished by succeeding pontiffs, 
 especially John XXII. and Benedict XII. It is certain that the number of Chris- 
 tians was not ioconsiderable, both among the Chinese and Moguls, as late as the 
 year 1370, — and they were still increasing, when they were suddenlj' swept 
 away and almost wholly exterminated by the Mahometan arms. Howbeit, the 
 disastrous overthrow ot their establishment detracts nothing from the merit of 
 those who constructed it; and it must not be forgotten, that the instruments in 
 this work were Mendicants, and, for the most part, Franciscans." lb. p. 547. 
 
 The Methodists have done themselves honor by the praises Ihey have 
 bestowed on Francis Xavier, a Jesuit. They have published his life, 
 and to day, if I liave time, I will quote from it some beautiful extracts. 
 
 They and other Protestants have also published Thomas a Kempis, 
 or the christian pattern. Where, except in the Gospel, can purer mo- 
 rality be found ] And Thomas a Kempis was a monk. We are told 
 that Sacchi said that the Albigcnses and Vaudois made a shoio of piety. 
 That is a fact, and a pretty show it was. I will not re^d the indicated, 
 but forbidden page of narrative sincere — better blot it with a tear ! 
 
 If the pope is charged with severity to kings, it is because kings 
 were tyrants and the pope was the advocate of the weak, and the 
 enemy of arbitrary power. The people were crushed, and had no re- 
 source but in the influence which God gave to the head of the 
 church. 
 
 "With all its errors, (the papacy's,) its coriuptions, and its crimes, it was, 
 nior^llv and intellectually, the conservative power of christtndom. Politically, 
 too, it'was the savior of Europe; for, in all human probability, the west, like 
 the east, must have been overrun by IVIahommedanism, and sunk in irremediable 
 degradation, through the pernicious institutions which have evtrywhere accom- 
 panied if; if, in that great crisis of the world, the Roman church had not roused 
 the nations to an united and prodigious tflbrt commensurate with the danger. 
 
 In the frightful stiile df society which prevailed during the dark ages, the 
 church everywhere exerted a controlling and remedial inllutnce. Fvery place 
 of worship was an anyluni) which was always respected by liie law, and generally 
 even by luivless violence. It iu recorded, ai* one of the peculiar miseries of Ste- 
 phen's miserable reign, that during those long troubles, the soldiers leurmd to 
 disregard the right of sanctuary. Like many other parts of the Romish system, 
 thin right had prevailed in the" heathen world, though it was not ascrib^ to 
 every temple. It led, as it had done under the Romish empire, to abuses which 
 became intolerable; but it originated in a humane and pious purpose, not only 
 •creening ollenders from laws, the severity of which ainouiited to injustice, but, 
 in cases of private wrong, aflording lime for passion to abate, and for the desire 
 of vengeance to be ap|)eased. The cities of refuge were not more neeiled, under 
 the Mosaic dispensation, than such asylums in ages when the administration of 
 luntice was either detestably inhuman, or so lax, thai it alhjwed free scope to 
 Individual resentment. They have, therefore, generally been found wherever 
 there are the first rudiments of civil and religious order. The churchyards uhn 
 were privileged placis, whither the poor people conveyed their goods for secu- 
 rity. The prolidion v.hicli the eccli-siastiral power exten<led in such cases, k« pt 
 up" in the people, who so often stood in nfcd of it, a feeling of reverence and at- 
 tachment to the church. They fill that religion had u power on earth, and that 
 it was always exercised for their bi-nefit. 
 
 'Ihc civil power was in those ages so ineflicient for the prciervation of pnblic 
 trnn(|uilitv, that when n rouiilry was at pence with all its neighliors, it was linblo 
 to be disturbed by private wars, indivitfnaU taking upon themselves the right of 
 deciding their own r|iiarre|ii, and aveneing tin ir own wrong-. Where there 
 tlistcd no deadly fiud, pretexts were easily made by turbulent and rapaciom mec, 
 N 2
 
 150 DEBATK 0:f TUE 
 
 for engaging in such contests, nnd tlicy were not scrupulouj whom they seized and 
 imprisoned, lor the purpose of extorting a ransom. No law, therefore, was ever 
 more thankfully received, than wiien tlie council of Clermot enacted, that, from 
 sun-set on Wednesday to suu-rise on Monday, in every week, the truce of God 
 should be observed, on pain of exconmiunication. Well might the inoflensive 
 end peaceable part of the coninmiiity (always the great, but in evil times the 
 inert, and therefore the sulVeriiig part,) regard, with grateful devotion, a power, 
 under whose protection they slept four nights of the week in peace, when other- 
 wise they would have been in peril every hour. The same power by which in- 
 dividuals were thus beneliled, was not unfrequently exercised in great national 
 concerns; if the monarch were endangered or oppressed either by a foreign 
 enemy, or by a combination of his barons, here was an authorit}- to which he 
 could resort for an e/lectual interposition in his behalf; and the same shield was 
 extendetl over the vassals, when they called upon the pope to defend them against 
 a wrongful exertion of the sovereign power." .Southey's Book of the Clivrch, 
 pa^s 293. Boston, ^sl. tdit. 1825. 
 
 Now I must follow Mr. C. wheeling right ahout from rear to van. 
 We are told that Peter exercised the grand commission of Apostle — 
 and that therefore he could not have heen bishop of Rome, and again 
 that Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. But Peter 
 was the first apostle sent to the Gentiles — by the angel of Cod. He 
 received Cornelius the centurion into the church. He founded the 
 see of Antioch — a Gentile city. If Peter was an apostle of the whole 
 world, where should he place his head quarters 1 Where, but at Rome, 
 the mistress of the world, worthy field for a chief apostle's zeal ; 
 where he could at once be heard by Gentiles and by Jews, by Greeks, 
 Barbarians and Romans. 
 
 We are told there are no vices to be discovered in the Pagan em- 
 perors more flagrant and gloomy than those of the Roman pontiff's — 
 that they became proverbial for their iniquity. But I have shown that 
 these sweeping denunciations are glaringly untrue. There were 39 
 martyrs out of 2G0 or 270 popes. If there were a few bad men among 
 them, shall we for that reason fling away our faith ? Does Christ say 
 so ? Did he not say that it must needs be that scandals come 1 And 
 were not the vast majority of the popes entitled to veneration'? 
 Suppose there were about a dozen that were infamous, and that there 
 were even fifty of various shades of guilt, or imperfection, there were 
 still upwards of 200 worthy. Christ has said that "many are called, 
 but few chosen." Show me 200 of the Roman emperors or a liko 
 proportion of any other rulers, to the popes, who were as good men, 
 and who have deserved to go to heaven. Shall we point to Nero 
 holding up the dagger which he had plunged into the breast of his 
 own mother 1 to Diocletian, the man of sin, — the antichrist of the 
 apostles, who mowed down hundreds of meek and peaceful disciples 
 at once 1 — to Caligula, the murderer of the saints ? — to Maxentius ? — 
 or the monster Maximin ? W^here is there a parallel to their atroci- 
 ties'? My friend has talked of the inquisition, and on that point also 1 
 will meet him. The inquisition was the vice of the age and not of the 
 church. It was unknown for many centuries. In many Catholic 
 countries it was never received. Other churches and times have, 
 likewise, their sins of blood to answer for. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half-past 1 1 o'clock, A. M. 
 Mr. Ca.mpbell rises — 
 
 My friends if we proceed in this course we never shall dismiss the 
 propositions we have before us. If we are to sit here and listen to
 
 K03IAK CATHOLIC KELIGION. 151 
 
 such a variety of matter wholly irrelevant to the question we shall 
 never prove any thinor, or know what is proved. Must we have ques- 
 tions introduced reaching back to the beginning of the discussion and 
 forward to its close, and touching upon the whole system of theology 
 in every speech 1 I have said already I will not lose sight of my 
 duty so as to respond to every thing in one speech. 
 
 I almost trembled when my opponent arose with so much pomp 
 and appearance of having found a triumphant proof of his assertions 
 in some hidden, and by me, unexplored corner of Irenajus. What! 
 said I to myself, have I not thoroughly examined this matter T Is it 
 possible that there yet remains one passage unknown to me against 
 my assertion, and have I committed myself? But it was even a lit- 
 tle less alarming than his blustering about the consecration of Phocas. 
 Judge of my surprise and great relief, when I found he w'as only rea- 
 ding one of his elegant extracts, which he styles his proof! that in- 
 deed, it was the same old story new vamped, and varnished without 
 any reference at all, to the present debate. Irenaeus said, " while Pe- 
 ter and Paul were founding the congregation at Rome." I would 
 ask, is there in this audience, any stripling in knowledge, who under- 
 stands that founding a congregation makes a man bishop of that 
 church all his life ? Missionaries go abroad, they plant congregations 
 in particular places ; and they go from country to country, from city 
 to city, to found other churches. Are they bishops of all the congre- 
 gations that they esablish ] It is essential to a missionary not to be 
 stationary. But why expose a matter, already evident to alii It is 
 the gentleman's last effort. He has explored all antiquity, and all 
 he can find, after tliree or four days, search, is this single fragment of 
 a saint, staling on hearsay, that Paul and Vcict planted the church at 
 Rome ! So ends the controversy on tlial point, the main pillar of the 
 Roman church. There is another little matter (there are too many 
 little matters) which I wish to dispose of. 
 
 The gentleman affects a great accuracy in liis knowledge, and great 
 precision on the part of iiis autliorities. He seems to glory in that 
 sort of reputation, else I would not select tliis trifle. How often has 
 he asserted that Sylvester summoned the council of Nice, and that 
 the pone's legates presided over it! And how often lias lie tried to 
 prove It ! Like soinr? other matters already disposed of, after sleeping 
 two nights upon the subject, as one that had a pleasant dream, lie 
 awakens and alfirms again, that Osius, a S])anish bishop, was legate 
 of Sylvester, and as such presided at Nice. But did he prove it? 
 I shall read you some testimony on this subject. I do this, not to add 
 to the weight of my arguments one grain of sand; but to prcjve that 
 wlien I assert any tiling as a fact, I do it advisiuUy, and will stand to it. 
 Permit me now to correct a mistakf; into which tiie gcnliennin has 
 fallen, that I relied ujion the testimony of an ephemeral paper in Ken- 
 tucky. I did not say, thnt it was upon such authority 1 read any nu- 
 tlior here. My allusion to tliat pa[)er, was a pure arfrumcniuri) ad ho- 
 minem ,■ and was made; for bishop Pnrcell and no one else. ['I'lie 
 bishop of Biirdstown or some of his clergy admitted that Kusebi>is 
 and I)ii Pin. though not good (Catholics, '• were authentic hisltirians." 
 But that adinission gives them no new weight, or indeed, no weight at 
 all with me. I have already given my reasons for the authority of Dn 
 Pin. I'ut where, may I ask, is bis authority f'>r Sylvester's calling 
 the council of iNice! The emperor did it at the general suggestion
 
 152 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 of iho eastern bishops. And if Osiiis presided, we have no reason 
 to think that he did it as tlie pope's legate. For this we have an- 
 cient authority. The gentleman spoke in warm admiration of Osi- 
 us : but did he not apostatize, or some way lose his orthodoxy ]] He 
 was, indeed, a learned and talented man — a sort of standing presi- 
 dent in the early councils ; and in that age of the world as among ec- 
 clesiastics there were few men of general learning, we therefore find 
 him conspicuous in all assemblies; and his name stands first in the 
 subscriptions of the decrees and creeds of the early part of the 4th 
 century, but that he presided as the pope's legate in any council, espe- 
 cially that of Nice, is insusceptible of proof. 
 
 We shall however hear antiquity on the subject. 
 
 "Constantino seeing that he had labored in vain to allay the disputes which 
 divided the church, thought it would be tlie most ready and ctl'ectual means to 
 restore peace, to call a numerous synod composed of eastern and western bishops. 
 This council was called cccuminical, i. e. a council of the whole world, or tne 
 whole earth, because it was called together from all parts of the Roman empire, 
 to which the title of the world, or earth, was given, 'and which did almost in- 
 clude the Catholic church. This council was assembled by order of the em- 
 peror at Nice, a city of Bithynia, about the month of July, in the year 325, in 
 the second year of Constantine's reign. St. Sylvester was then bishop of Rome, 
 who sent thither V'ictor and Vincentius, his legates. It is commonly held that 
 this council consisted of 318 bishops; but those who were present at it do not 
 preciselj' determine this number, but say only that there were about 300 bishops. 
 'Tis not certainly known who presided in this council, but it is very probable 
 that it was Hosius who held the chief place there in his own name, because he 
 had already taken cognizance of this affair, and was much esteemed by the em- 
 peror, who was then present. 
 
 Athanasius, in his second apology, calls Hosius the father and president of all 
 the councils. The name of this bishop is the IJrst in all the subscriptions. Alex- 
 ander was much esteemed, as appears by the letter of the council. Eustathius, 
 of Antioch, was called the chief bishop of the council by Proclus and by Facun- 
 dus; but it is more probable that Hosius presided there in his own name, and not 
 in the pope's, for he no where assumes the title of legate of the holy see; and 
 none of the ancients say that he presided in this council in the pope's name. 
 GelasiusCizicenus, who first affirmed it, says it without any jiroof or authority." 
 
 Du Pin, vol. \,]>p. 598, 599. 
 
 Now where is the gentleman's authority for the nature of the bish- 
 op of Rome or his legates, either calling or presiding in this council ! 
 Upon such disregard of ancient history rest many such assertions now 
 in common circulation and in common belief. But as I said before 
 on this point, I should not have dwelt a moment upon it, had not my 
 opponent affected peculiar accuracy in his details. 
 
 The bishop admits Barronius to be an authentic historian. Now, 
 neither Barronius nor Du Pin even admitted so much in reference to 
 the demerits of the popes, as bishop Purcell has admitted in the pre- 
 sence of this great congregation : For he says " I have no doubt 
 but these bad popes are now expiating their crimes in the pen- 
 al fires of hell." While these words were sounding in my ears, 
 the question simultaneously arose, with the sensation produced. What ! 
 Has the Lord Jesus his vicars — his representatives on earth, now 
 roasting in the flames of hell ? I put it to intelligent men, whether 
 such an idea is not repugnant to every principle of the christian re- 
 ligion ? 
 
 When Simon proposed to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit, 
 what did Peter say to him ? " Thy money perish with thee !" Does 
 this look like winking at such enormities? Were not the apostles 
 all persons of unblemished reputation ] and if such holy men, the
 
 R03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 153 
 
 Models of erery virtue, were first appointed by the Lord to conduct 
 the affairs of his kingdom, how comes it to pass that he has changed 
 his administration and trusted it to such a succession of pretended 
 representatives'? Has Christ changed his purpose with respect to 
 his church, that he will allow its supreme head on earth to act every 
 species of crime, and yet be his acceptable vicegerents! INlay I not 
 say, that the darkest hour of midnight is not more opposed to the light 
 of noon, than is the general character of the popes of Rome to that 
 of the apostles ! 
 
 The gentleman exclaims, " How precise these Catholics always 
 in their dates !" There is however, an over precision, that creates 
 suspicion. When a man begins to swear very circumstantially before 
 his word is called in question, I begin to suspect his evidence : and 
 when I see authors testifying that Peter reigned twenty four years 
 five months and ten days, bishop of Rome (as I have it on some ta- 
 bles of the popes ;) I tliink he ought also to come down to hours, 
 minutes and seconds ! and then we would know how to appreciate him. 
 
 This resembles Peter's putting away his wife after he became 
 bishop of Rome. " What accuracy !" Let the gentleman prove first 
 that he was bishop of Rome, and then we shall show that he still 
 retained his wife. 
 
 The gentkman'9 compliments to the citizens of Cincinnati, however 
 well deserved on their part, will not so blind the eyes of this audience 
 as not to understand the argument ; and the design of their panegyrist. 
 Nor will his gratuitous denunciation of the Albigenses, Donatists, 
 Novatians, Paulicians, and others, pass for historic truth. They were 
 such " vile heretics" in the estimation of *' holy mother," as are we 
 " schismatical Protestants." Their reputation we have fully sustain- 
 ed from unexceptionable authority. 
 
 The gentleman will have Uu Pin in every speech. Can he prove, 
 or has lie proved liiiii unfaithful in stating a single historic fact? Not 
 one. Nor can he disprove those Roman Catholic vouchers for him 
 on whose testimony I rely. 
 
 But as the reiteration of assertion is no proof, and as I am not ob- 
 liged to repeat arguments as often as he makes assertions, I shall 
 notice one or two new mailers to which he would give emphasis. 
 
 But it ie time to examine the philosophy of the plea for wicked 
 popes. The Messiah descended through a long line of ancestors, some 
 of whom were wicked men. That is, the human nature of the Messiah 
 descended through some wicked progenitors. Indeed ! To the honor 
 of Jesus f^hrisl, bo it said, he liunililcd himself for our exaltation: 
 he condescended to be made of a woman, to be descended from Adam, 
 Noah, and others. In such a long line, he must necessarily, have 
 had all the varieties of luimaD nature in his ancestors. He chose 
 to make himself of uo reputation — to he born in a stable, of the hum- 
 blest and poorcHt |)arcntagi'. Hut who would argiu! from ihcnre, that 
 because his flesh and blood were so descended ; therefore, the Holy 
 Spirit muat descend to the church, in all its official gifts of authority 
 and governmental influ<!nce, through a lineage of persons, whose Itearla 
 were full of niunier, adultery, and all uneleannesH? and that through 
 the bands of Hueh jjcrsons all the graces of the ordinances must flow 
 to all the partakers of the christian institution 1 Does not, let me ask, 
 the defence make the matter worse? Is there any analogy between the 
 descent of flesh, and tlie Spirit of God 1 Is the formation of the 
 
 20
 
 154 DKBATK ON TIIR 
 
 human body, and the creation of the mystical body of Christ, matters 
 of equal value and importance ■? 
 
 God has generally, employed the best of our race in all the affairs 
 of our salvation. His agents have often been angels or the best men. 
 He did not often impart such sacred trusts to men of bad character. 
 A wicked Balaam or a treacherous Judas may have been amongst 
 those employed, for special reasons in some great crisis. In the case 
 of Balaam, he caused even an ass to open its mouth and reprove the 
 madness of the prophet : but that he ever set such persons over his 
 church, and gave the affairs of his kingdom into such hands — that 
 he went so far as to select these wicked popes to speak his word, 
 is repugnant to all history, and our experience of his dealings with 
 men. 
 
 The gentleman says there were iivo hundred good popes. I do not 
 admit this : but I am willing to help him so far as to say I can count 
 forty nine saints out of the first ^/y popes according to my calendar. 
 But they lived long ago. Not one of the last fifty has been a saint. — • 
 
 Bishop Purcell — Yes there is one. 
 
 Mr. Campbkll — I beg the gentleman's pardon. There is one saint, 
 then, out of the last fifty popes ! It is a happy thing for human na- 
 ture, that the vices and faults of those who have redeeming qualities^ 
 die with them, while their virtues live and magnify, long after their 
 death. Hence, our remote ancestors and those of ancient times, if at 
 all distinguished, are canonized in the admiration of the living, and 
 are supposed greatly to excel our contemporaries. 
 
 The bishop says, that if the pope were a poor wanderer in the 
 mountains of the moon, it would not destroy his authority .-r-Though 
 the see of St. Peter should be vacant for seventy years ! If so, the 
 whole argument for Roman episcopacy falls to the ground. If the gen- 
 tleman admits that the pope has as much authority in the mountains 
 of the moon as in Rome, why all this controversy about Rome % 
 
 The gentleman made himself very merry with the council's depos- 
 ing three popes and creating a fourth. Bat I repeat, there were in all 
 four popes created and destroyed at that one time. I feel no mis- 
 givings of conscience for making this assertion. I ask now, how are we 
 to decide which of these four had the best title to St. Peter's chair? 
 Where is the authority for a council's creating one and destroying three 
 popes 1 No council before ever took so much on them. But if we 
 say with the bishop, that not one of the three popes was a true pope; 
 then what a long link is wanting in the succession ; and how could 
 the council of Constance furnish it 1 
 
 My friend the bishop spoke of marriage quite in jocular style — : but 
 he told one great truth which I hope he will stick to, to the end. It was 
 this : He said that the church had made marriage one of the seven 
 sacraments — mark it. The church hzs made it a sacrament ; and she 
 has made other things sacraments : which the great universal Father 
 of heaven and earth has not so made and designated. 
 
 Peter was sent to convert the Gentiles. — He opened the kingdom 
 of heaven to Cornelius and his family : but this does not interfere 
 with his being specially the apostle of the Jews. 
 
 There were various vacancies in the Roman see of shorter and 
 longer duration — several of two or three years, continuance. The 
 church was often without a head for years at a time. 
 
 Was it the intention of the great Author of the christian institution
 
 ROMAN CATHOUC RELIGION. 155 
 
 to hazard such a continorency T Would he have set on foot such an || 
 
 order of things ? — The chair often vacant and often filled with wicked " 
 
 popes. Now, if the church could get along for years without a pope, 
 could it not dispense with one altogether 1 F or if faith in the pope 
 be an essential part of the faith, would Jesus Christ have suffered 
 the whole administration of the affairs of salvation to be so often and 
 60 long suspended ? How many persons were born and died during 
 these vacancies ! How many souls were detained in purgatory ; and 
 otherwise endangered in their spiritual interests by these unavoidable 
 interruptions ! — [Time expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 The question for to-day is the uniformity of the Catholic faith and 
 practice ; and we are still upon the subject of apostolicity. Mr. C. 
 cannot go ahead as fast as he anticipated. He has discovered that 
 Paulicians, Donatists and Novatians have the bar sinister on their coat 
 of arms, and he takes up with the Vaudois, for whom Reynier and Wad- 
 dington have said a good word. Well let us hear the latter, as he is a 
 Protestant. I may not quote, if I can avoid it. Catholic testimony, p. 
 290. " At the same time we must admit that the direct historical evi- 
 dence is not sufficient to prove the apostolical descent of the Vaudois." 
 There ! the chain of evidence breaks off right short ; and the Novatians, 
 Donatists and Paulicians cannot weld it. " Besides," says our histo- 
 rian, " while they (the Vaudois) obliged their clergy to be poor and 
 industrious, they compelled them to be illiterate also." This, at least, 
 my friend will condemn. 
 
 He says, I have slept and dreamed for two nights on the subject of 
 my testimony, concerning Osius' presiding, in the name of Sylvester, 
 at the council of Nice. But have I not already produced Baronius, 
 and have there not been for the last two days of this debate, other re- 
 spectable authorities on the table, modestly waiting to he heard ! Ho 
 said I could not get a single proof earlier than the fifth century, and 
 then, that the reason why Osius presided in the councils was the want 
 of learning in that age, in the East. Why, when my friend says this 
 he admits all, himself, and leaves me nothing to say. But the 
 fourth century was the golden age of the whole church. There were 
 many learned men, not only in the West but in the Kast, and if he will 
 consult Baronius, he will find that there has rarely been presented to 
 the veneration of the (-'atholic world as bright an array of great and 
 good men, as that, which in 325, assembled in the council at Nice — 
 and Du Pin encore. He makes for me. He does say that Victor and 
 Vincentius, were legates of Sylvester. 
 
 To give more solemnity, and if possible, more complete effect to their 
 decision, the bishops of the Christian world met to banish Ariani m 
 and CRtahlish the grand cardinal doctrine of the divinity of (,"liiist, 
 which the Arians impugned. Conslantine was tht-re ; but he acknow- 
 ledged the disiinrincss of the ecclesiastical authority. We hear of no 
 collision bflwecn him and Sylvester, or any of the Niceiie bishops. 
 The church was in no absolute want of his aid, hut as it was freely 
 given, it was gratefully accepted. There were no canals, rail-roads, 
 or hotels in those days. In the emperor's munificence, the fathers 
 of Nice found those resources which their poverty denied them. To
 
 156 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 his son Constantiiis, it was, however, that Osius fearlessly said, " Do 
 not interfere in ecclesiastical matters, for to you God gave the empire ; 
 but to us ecclesiastical concerns. Now as he who should deprive you 
 of your kingdom would resist the ordinance of God, so do you beware 
 lest you fall into sonic grievous sin by taking away the indepen- 
 dence of the church. 
 
 My learned friend says he will not go further on these matters. It 
 is well — discretion is the better part of valor. The voice of all anti- 
 quity has spoken — The authority of Rome has ever stood preemi- 
 nent. 
 
 I did not say, I did not doubt these popes were in hell. I beg the 
 gentleman to quote me correctly. Far be it from me, to arrogate a 
 right which belongs to God alone, to decide on man's eternal destiny 
 —but I said, I should not he surprised, at it, when I consider their de- 
 fects and sins on the one hand, their knowledge, responsibility and 
 grace, on the other. The more eminent their station, the more con- 
 spicuous to the whole world, like spots on the sun, were their frail- 
 ties — the brighter the example of their predecessors, the darker, by 
 contrast, did they appear. But the circumstances of the times in 
 which they lived, must be taken into the account to palliate, if truth will 
 not permit us to excuse, their failings. The lights and shadows are 
 blended, perhaps necessarily, in the moral as well as in the physical 
 world ; and as we do not deny the exrsfence of aii infinitely wise and 
 good God, because we discover apparent imperfectioh in the material 
 world, the volcano, the poison, the venomous reptile, the whirlwind, 
 the pestilential malaria, so neither do we conclude that religion, or the 
 church, is not his work, because we sometimes meet with examples of 
 moral deformity and disorder which mar the beauty of the heavenly 
 design. But Mr. C. thinks that God would never allow men whom 
 he had selected for the high function of Roman Catholic popes, to fall 
 into sins that would merit for them hell-fire. Does he then forget that 
 God created Lucifer, as a bright leader of the angelic throng, and yet 
 Lucifer is now a reprobate spirit in hell! Does he forget that Judas 
 was selected to share in the infallibility, which he allows was granted 
 to the twelve 1 Did not Jesus train him up in his own school for three 
 years'? And did not Judas, after all, betray his God and sell him for 
 the thirty pieces of silver] Did he not afterwards go and hang him- 
 self in despair, and his bowels gushed out. Was it not because of the 
 excess of his own favor to Judas, and the inconceivable ingratitude of 
 the apostle, that the Son of God had said by the rnouth of his prophet : 
 Ps. liv. 14. " If my enemy had reviled rhe, I would verily have borne 
 with it, and if he that hated me, had spoken great things against me, 
 I would perhaps have hidden myself from him: but thou, a man (f one 
 mind, my guide and my familiar.'''' This is what makes a priest's, 
 or a bishop's sin so great. This, awful as it is, is what sustains us 
 when scandals befall the church, when the lights of the sanctuary are 
 eclipsed and its pillars broken and scattered on the earth, for we say 
 to ourselves C^hrist has allowed all this beforehand in that miniature 
 band, his own apostles — the exemplar of his church : and the number 
 of bad pcypes has not yet equalled the proportion of one to twelve! God 
 has allowed all this to teach us, that if men fall away, the faith for 
 which his holy promises are pledged, is invincible. " The gifts of God 
 are without repeiitance,'''' Rom. xi.29, in other words, Christ established
 
 EOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 157 
 
 the primacy of Peter. He wished it to persevere. If any of the suc- 
 cessors of Peter are bad men; the answer of Paul comes up, "The 
 gifts of God are without repentance." If man behaves badly, it is for 
 his own ruin, but his evil conduct shall not change the order and de- 
 sign of heaven. 
 
 It was attempted to show that there was no analogy between the 
 ancestry of Christ, and the succession of St. Peter. Now I maintain that 
 if the ancestry of Judah's royal line, magnificent as it was and des- 
 tined to be the forerunner of Him of, whom Paul had many and great 
 things and hard to be understood, to declare, could yet include some 
 of the worst sinners, why might not the apostolical succession, in 
 which was, individually or collectively, nought so holy as He to whom 
 all the prophets bore witness, in whom was seen on earth, all the glo- 
 ry of the Father, full of grace and truth 1 
 
 I refer to the first chapter of Matthew where the temporal genera- 
 tion of the Savior is traced from David, and my argument is this ; that 
 as it has not impaired the sanctity of Jesus to come according to the 
 flesh, from him, though he sinned, and from others who sinned as he 
 had sinned, so neither did it detract from the sanctity of the oflice of 
 pope, that there were some bad men among the number. The cases 
 are therefore, so far as that argument is concerned, analogous; and Ave 
 may exclaim with a holy awe — Oh ! the depth of the riches, and of 
 the knowledge, of the wisdom of (iod ! How incomprehensible are 
 his judgments, and how' unsearchal)le his Ways ! Who hath known 
 the mind of God, or w'ho hath been his counsellor? St. Paul, Rom. 
 xi. 3.3, 34. My friend says that holy men were alwaj'S selected by the 
 Holy Ghost for holj- purposes ! and what will he say of Luther, who 
 proves, as I can show by his own testimony, himself to have been 
 a bad man ! I have his w-orks here in three vols, folio — a Daniel 
 come to judgment ! He was "a hard wedge to split knotty blocks !" 
 &c. Yes, he had a hard mouth, and a hard heart. But I will not 
 speak of Luther nor of ("alvin, hard, unless couipelk'd. 
 
 The gentleman says there were forty-nine saints in the first fifty. 
 I said there were '.i'J who were sai7its and martyrs. Since that, there 
 have been many pontiffs, saints. Pius the 7th possessed all the vir- 
 tues which may eiitith; iiim to be so considered. So did his predeces- 
 sor Pius VI. .so did i'eiiedict XIV. and Pius VIII. and Leo XII — So 
 does the present pontiti', a man of the purrst morals, profound humil- 
 ity, enlightened xeal and eminent h^arning. We have heard many 
 silly predictions of llie doctrine of his temporal influence in Rome, 
 but I repeat that he would retain his s])iritual authority, if he were 
 compelled to have that city, wliicli 1 liopi^ al'tcr iiis predecessors have 
 stood their ground for fightfcn hundred years lie never will. His au- 
 thority docs not reside in the stones, and bricks and pave-mcnts of 
 Rome! 
 
 TIk; gentleman speaks of the schism of Avignon, for my friend 
 thinks liiat if llie pope shouhl leave liome, the (;atiiolic faith would 
 be annihilated. He docs not know tliat the title of the see would 
 follow the pope. We never suffer even the name of a sec to perish. 
 If Christianity forsake a country, where it has, once, been established 
 the names of the sees would survive. Thus the present, learned and 
 pious Coadjutor, bishop of Philadelphia, takes his ecclesiastical desig- 
 nation from Arath in parlUms infulcliuin. The titular bishop of Phil- 
 
 O
 
 158 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 adelphia is blind from his great age. The bishop of Bardstown is 
 also, nominally, bishop of a foreign see. 
 
 Now let me, once for all, say that my friend has several times misr 
 taken my views and words, on tho subject of appointment to office. 
 I need not repeat what I have said on that subject. We do nothing 
 without the pope's concurrence and sanction, in spiritual matters. 
 This communion is a peculiar trait in our church. We exult in it. 
 It keeps us together as the sheep of one fold. "He who gathereth 
 not with me scattereth," saith the Lord. By this communion with 
 the see of Peter, we know that the church is orthodox and sound. 
 On this account we yield all due deference to the pope. On this ac- 
 count we ask of him the " canonical investiture," which signifies that a 
 person is authorized by him to be made bishop, and inducted into the 
 sacred office by his authority. 
 
 We were told that councils met together and elected popes. Therp 
 is nothing extraordinary in this. Why, my dear friends, common sense 
 teaches this course. Christ's foreknowledge of all the occurrences 
 that were to take place in the government of the earth, caused him to 
 organize society. If not, disorder would ensue. On such a principle 
 as the gentleman's, there could be no common bond of union. If Christ's 
 society in the world and men will not consent to be held together by 
 social rules, his design is baffled. The church is a society. Hence 
 St. Paul says, "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers, for 
 they who resist, purchase for themselves damnation." Rom. xiii. 1. 
 Again, " Remember your prelates who have spoken to you the word 
 of God ; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." 
 And again " obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they 
 watch as being to render an account of your souls, that they may do 
 this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you." 
 Heb. xiii. 17. Without subordination there can be no peace, and 
 consequently no happiness, in any society of men, but particularly in 
 a religious society. The church is the pillar and the ground of the 
 truth, 1st Tim. iii. 15. [Time expired.] 
 
 Three o'clock, P. M. 
 Mr. Campbell rises — 
 
 Before the third proposition is read, I beg leave to offer both an ex- 
 planation and an apology. 
 
 In reference to the proposition which has just been discussed, I 
 have lying before me an index of ihe popes from the time of Peter to 
 Innocent II, A. D. 1()7G. Here are two hundred and forty popes. In 
 the first fifty, forty-nine were saints. We notice a diminution in sanc- 
 tity as we descend to our own times ; for in the last ninety popes on 
 the list, there is only one saint. The church made her own saints. 
 She ought, therefore, to know the reason why. It rests in her own 
 judgment: but, in my judgment, she has made in her popes as many 
 as, in any decency, she possibly could ; and many more in name than 
 she even had in reality. 
 
 The gentleman (and it was one of his most lucky hits) compares the 
 fact that there was one traitor among twelve apostles, to the fact, that 
 there were fifty bad popes among two or three hundred popes. This 
 is a happy salvo. Judas has relieved many a hard case; but the con- 
 duct of Judas is no apology for the popes. It has another meaning in 
 scripture, than to justify or excuse such flagitious cases. The Savior
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 159 
 
 you will remember, in his prayer (John xvii.), says : " Of all thou hast 
 given me I have lost only one, the son of perdition ;" because he was 
 spoken of in the Old Testament, and described as a traitor. The use of 
 Judas among the twelve, is not always duly appreciated. But for 
 him, as respects the credibility of the testimony, it might have been 
 said, that the twelve apostles were all the personal friends of Christ; 
 and, although persons of fair reputation, yet their testimony was that 
 of friends. To prevent this reflection, and to make it perfect in every 
 point of view, one enemy is made the confidant of Jesus, as much as 
 any one of them. He is admitted to all the secrets of the schemes of 
 the Messiah, as much as his other companions. He is a covetous 
 wretch, and sells his master for fifteen dollars. Yet, under the con- 
 viction of his guilt, after a little reflection, he goes to the high priest, 
 and makes confession of his sin, saying : " 1 have betrayed innocent 
 blood." This, at this crisis, in all the circumstances, is the best tes- 
 timony of the twelve. It was essential to the consummation of the 
 testimony against the imputation of collusion amongst his friends ; and 
 Judas is as much a martyr to the truth of Christianity, as any one of 
 liis companions : a martyr, indeed, not to his own honor, but to the 
 blameless reputation of the author and founder of the christian faith. 
 This, then, explains the reason of such a permission in that case. But, 
 hearken to the sequel. To prevent a bad use of such a permission or 
 allowance even, the Lord suggested to his disciples to cast lots — to 
 appeal to heaven in electing a successor to Judas, that they might not 
 be endangered in the reputation of another apostle, and that he might 
 be sent from God. To have permitted persons of this character to 
 stand forward in the front rank of the gospel, would have endangered 
 the cause. The delinquency of the popes is opposed to the plan and 
 government of the christian institution ; and had it not been for the 
 reputation of the Roman clergy, we cannot tell how much more the 
 cause of Christ would have triumphed ere now. This is the expla- 
 nation. 
 
 Now, for the apology. It is for the difllculties, which our worthy 
 friend had to encounter in finding a succession in llio bishops of Rome, 
 that we oflj^r an apology. This apology ought to be a |)art of this book, 
 for the sake of a particular class, who Kave not leisure to trace the 
 causes of these things. 
 
 The biHlioj) could find no testimony in behalf of Peter's having had 
 the see of Rome ; bt^causc that was not Ihr. ground on which that see 
 first claimed the supremacy : if it had, we should have had plenty of 
 old traditions to sustain it. The ancient and true ground of ascribing 
 to the bishop of Rome superior importance, and of his arrogating any 
 sort of superiority over other tjisliops, was, that his see was tiie impe- 
 rial city : not because Peter or Paul had ever been bisho|) of Rome. 
 Rome was mistress of the world, the metropolis of the empire, the 
 great city, the emperor's residence. The bishop of Rome, moreover, 
 had the richest church in the world, and most honorable diocrse ; and 
 being neighbor to the ein|)eror, lie bricamo proud : for, said he to him- 
 8clt", " As the emperor governs the whole world, so oujrht / to govern 
 the whoh; church." From such seeds sprung the apostolic tree ! 
 
 Constantine became a ('hrislian : Byzanliuni is changed into Con- 
 Htantinople : the (Jonstantine family lake up llieir residence there: it 
 begins to bo called Acw Rome; and with that began the rivalry be-
 
 160 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tween old and new Rome. Soon there are two empires (for the empire 
 •was divided), one of the east, and one of the west. There must be, 
 now, two great imperial bishops; and the east and west churches, or, 
 the Greek and Roman, bepran to feel the spirit of rival agfrrandizement. 
 The controversy began, and tlie prospects of the new city outrivaled 
 those of the old city. But, just as tlie sceptre and mitre were about 
 passing from Rome to Constantinople, some ingenious persoii, lyhose 
 name no monument records, thought of a happy expedipnt to save the 
 sinking fortunes of the eternal city. It was, that Peter and Paul had 
 founded the church of Rome : nay, that Peter and Paul were buried 
 there ! 
 
 Constantina, the empress of the east, at the close of the sixth cen- 
 tury, finding that this discovery was unfortunate to the rising majesty 
 of the east, sent an express to Rome to obtain the remains of Paul, and 
 have them conveyed to Constantinople. She was willing that Peter 
 should remain in the Latoran ; but she wished to possess Paul. Sha 
 thought this would equalize the pretensions of new Rome and old 
 Rome, and give her equal claims upon the devotion of the saints and 
 pilgrims of the church. Had it not been for her failure in this strata- 
 gem, no one can tell whether Rome had not been, ages since, like 
 Thebes or Babylon. On this subject, thus speaks the elegant Gibbon : 
 "Like Thehes, or Babylon, or Carthage, ihe iianie of Rome might have been 
 erased from the earth, if the city had not been animated by a vital principle, 
 which again restored her to honor and dominion. A vagne tradition was embraced 
 that two Jewish teachers, a tent-maker and a fisherman, had formerly been exe- 
 cuted in the circus of Nero, and at the end of five hundred years their genuine 
 or fictitious relics were adored as the palladium of christian Konie." Decl. and 
 Fall Rom. Enip. Vol. viii. p. 161. 
 
 "►2 vague tradition.'''' This is happily expressed. But the superior 
 tact of St. Gregory saved Rome from this misfortune ; and he managed 
 the petition of Constantina with great address, as we shall presently 
 show. I beg leave to read from Waddington: 
 
 Reverence Jbr Relics. The empress Constantia, who was building a church 
 at Constantinople to St. Paul, made application to Gregory for the head of that 
 Apostle,* or at least for some portion of his body. The pope begins his answer 
 by a very polite expression &f his sorrow ' that he neither could nor dared to 
 grant that favor; for the bodies of the ho)y apostles, Peter and Paul, are so 
 resplendent with miracles and terrific prodigies ui their own churches, that no 
 one can approach them without great awe, even for the purpose of adoring them. 
 When my predecessor, of happy memory, wished to rliangc some silver arma- 
 ment which was placed over the most holy body of St. Peter, though at the 
 distance of almost fifteen feet, a warning of no small terror appeared to him. 
 Even I myself wished to make some alteration near the most holy body of St. 
 Paul, and it was necessary to dig rather deeply near his tomb. The superior of 
 the place found some bones which were not at all connected with that tomb; and, 
 having presumed to disturb and remove them to some other place, he was visited 
 by certain fearful apparitions, and died suddenly. My predecessor, of holy 
 memory, also undertook to make some repairs neur the tomb of St. Laurence: 
 as they were digging without knowing precisely where the venerable body was 
 placed, they happened to open his sepulchre. The monks and guardians who 
 were at the work, only because they had seen the body of that martyr, though 
 they did not presume so nmch as to touch it, all died within ten days; to the end 
 that no man might remain in life who had beheld the body of that just man. 
 
 * Baroniu!!, who cites the pope's reply with ponsiderable admiration, ottributes the era- 
 press's exorbitant request to ecclesiastical ambition, — to a desire to exalt the see of Con- 
 Btantinople to a level with that of Rome, by getting into lier possession so important a por- 
 tion of so great an apostle. F'leury quotes the letter chiefly in proof that the transfer of 
 relics was furbiddea in the Roman church, while that abuse was permitted in the cast.
 
 RO)LA.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 161 
 
 Be U then known to you, that it is the custom of the Romans, when they give 
 any relics, not to venture to touch any portion of the body; only they put into 
 a box a piece of linen (called brandeum,) which is placed near the holy bodies; 
 then it is withdrawn and shut u^) witli due veneration in the church which is 
 to be dedicjited, and as many prodigies are then wrought by it as if the bodies 
 themselves had been carried thither; whence it happened, that in the times of St. 
 Leo, (as we learn from our ancestors,) when some Greeks doubted the virtue of 
 such relics, that pope called for a pair of scissors, and cut the linen, and blood 
 flowed from the incision. And not at Rome only, but through the whole of the 
 west, it is held sacrilegious to touch the bodies of the saints, nor does such te- 
 merity ever remain unpunished. For which reason we ate much astonished at 
 the custom of the Greeks to take away the bones of the saints, and we scarcely 
 give credit to it. But what shalJ I say respecting the bodies of the holy apostles, 
 when it is a known fact, that at the time of their martyrdom, a number of the 
 faithful came from the cast to claim them? But when they had carried themaut 
 of the citv, to the second milestone, to a place called the catacombs, the whole 
 multitude' was uriable to move them farther, — such a tempest of thunder and 
 lightning terrified and dispersed them. 
 
 The napkin too, which you wished to be sent at the same time, is with the body 
 and cannot be touched more than the body can be approached. But that your 
 religious desire may not be wholly frustrated, I will hasten to send \o you some 
 part of those chains which St. Paul wore on the neck and hands, if indeed I 
 shall succeed in getting off any filings from them. For since many continually 
 solicit as a blessing that they may carry off from those chains some small portion 
 of their filings, a priest stands by with a file; and sometimes it happens that 
 some portions fall off from the chains instantly and without delay; while at other 
 times, the file is long drawn over the chains, and yet nothing is at last scraped 
 off from them." Wad. Chh. Hist, pages 140, 141. 
 
 By this rhetoric, the bodies of Paul and Peter were saved for Rome. 
 And thus, when she lost the government of the world, and ceased to 
 te the imperial city, she had a better argument for her supremacy than 
 before. But, had this been thought of a few centuries sooner, my 
 opponent would have been able to confound me with a host of tradi- 
 tionary witnesses, assuring us that Peter was made bishop of Rome 
 and universal father of the whole church. 
 
 [Mr. C. here called for the reading of the third proposition, which 
 was read by one of the moderators.] 
 
 I'aop. I-II. " Shf \r not uniform in her faith, nor uniti^d in her members; but 
 inulabic and rHlliblf, as any other sect of philosophy or religion — Jewish, Turk- 
 ish, or Christian— a ("onfi deralion of sects, under a politico-ecclesiastic head." 
 
 I will proceed to define some of these terms. It is tnily alleg^ed 
 that most controversies are mere logomachies ; and that perspicuous 
 and precise definitions would settle a great number of them can not 
 be doubted. — 
 
 To narrow the debate on this proposition, the Roman church claims 
 universal homage on the plea of unity and uniformity, as resultinj^ 
 from infallibility. Every other church is mutable and fallible: but 
 «Ac is immutably the same ! VVhyl Because infallilili'. liifaliii)le in 
 what respect? Infallible in faith and in morals; l)iit not in discipline. 
 But where shall this infallibility hv. found"? In any individual per- 
 son? No; nor in all individual persons taken singly. But she is 
 infallible in her faith and morals, as written in her creed ! The Pro- 
 testant rlinrrb is then just as infallible as the Roman church : for her 
 faith and inoral rode are written in a book which is the fountain of 
 all moral truth. We must tb<n define faith : and let me ask, wiiat 
 docs the gentleman mean by faith? persuasif)n of a fact, doctrine, or 
 opinion? It cannot include everything. If faitli mean with him, 
 something in the head or heart; then, where is the pre-eminence of the 
 o2 21
 
 162 DEBATK 0.\ THK 
 
 Roman church, whose members individually arc all fallible 1 and if it 
 be laith as written in the creed : a<Tain, 1 would ask, where is tho 
 preeminence of tlie Reman cliiirch, over the English church 1 for she 
 IS as infallible in her creed as the Bible itself. 
 
 The gentleman says, ' that the symbol of his faith is the apostles'' 
 creed.'' If hat be the elements of his faith ; all Protestants believe it: 
 but if he means doctrine, opinion, speculation; then folios would not 
 contain the differences. What is faith subjectively considered, but a 
 belief in testimony, divine or human] and what is religious faith o6- 
 jedivehj, but the Bible? Five words comprehend the order of things 
 in regard to faith : 1st the fact, or the thing said or done — 2nd the 
 iesiimony, concerning it — 3rd the belirf of that testimony — 4th the 
 feeling, consentaneous with that faith — and 5th the action, correspond- 
 ing with that feeling. — These are the golden links, in that divine chain, 
 which binds our hearts to God, and explains all the mysteries of the 
 moral power of the remedial scheme. The gospel facts, as Paul 
 sums them up, 1 Cor. xv. 1, 2, 3, which engross the whole, are the 
 death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus, The whole Protestant 
 world believes these facts. England, Scotland, America — all Christen- 
 dom believe, or acknowledge these great gospel facts. So far all are 
 of one faith. The Romanist and Protestant here, are equally infallible 
 as respects faith ! And do we not all acknowledge the same perfect 
 moral code T But while there is, indeed, but one faith, there are many 
 doctrines, opinions, and traditions ; and these are what make the 
 " Eibh'''' and the " One Faith'" of the Bible of little or no account ! 
 Hence, has not the Roman church, like the Jews, made void the law 
 of God by her traditions ] It is not because the scriptures do not 
 contain the right faith: but because men have chosen to add to it 
 folios of human opinions, that the divine faith has lost its power. 
 
 It is a serious question, why is the Roman church infallible in faith 
 and not in discipline] — in theory, and not in practice] in the head, 
 and not in the heart] — Is it not of more value and importance, that 
 she should be perfect in the order and moral discipline of her mem- 
 bers ; than in the theory or doctrine of religion] She found that she 
 never could make herself infallible — why then, does she choose to 
 claim infallibility in the theory, and give it up in practice] Because 
 her plea of infallibiiity on that ground, she well knew, she could not 
 at all sustain; and how well she can sustain it on other grounds will 
 appear in the sequel. She has changed her discipline in every cen- 
 tury ; and her theories and doctrines of order and government are as 
 various as the Protestant sects. In the 19th century, she is not the 
 same as in the 18th ; nor in the 18th as in the 17th, nor in the 17th 
 as in the 16th, &c. 
 
 My friend has made concessions here, which I never expected from 
 him. He has avowed principles, which, till within a few years, were 
 unknown in the Roman Catholic church. I look upon this fact as an 
 evidence, that i)etter days are coming. I could wish that the Roman Ca- 
 tholic faith, under the mild genius of our institutions, might become so 
 modified, as to be suited to the character of our republic ; especially 
 to abandon the absurd pretension of infallibility, which indeed, she 
 must do, if ever she can become American. 
 
 But tlie Roman church is not united, nor uniform in this notion of 
 infallibility. There are four theories and four parties on the question, 
 tohcre shall infallibility be found ? The gentleman believes that the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIO:X. 163 
 
 pope is as fallible as himself. This, I conceive, is not the common 
 belief among Roman Catholics. The Jesuits, if I am rightly inform- 
 ed, teach that infallibility must, of right, be in the head. Indeed, so 
 I should reason: for what use would be an infallible body under a 
 fallible head T and would not that be most unnatural 1 Is not the body 
 subject to the head, naturally and necessarily ] and ought not every 
 body political and ecclesiastic, like the natural body, to be governed 
 by its head ? — [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'olocA; P. 31. 
 Bishop Plkcei,!, rises — 
 
 I would prefer, for the satisfaction of the audience, and to do the 
 subject justice, to enter at once on the proposition of the infallibility 
 of the Church. I should go over the ground, my learned opponent 
 has traveled, and if permitted, should make a regular argument on 
 the subjects to which he has alluded. My good friend is dissatisfied 
 with himself for having made any concessions in favor of the purity 
 of the popes, and he has re-examined, and Ibund for the last ninety 
 years but one saint in the calendar. If there was but one can- 
 onized, does it follow that there was but one worthy? There were 
 many worthy. There have been many great and good men amono- 
 the popes who have not been canonized. Rome is ver}' particular 
 whom she proposes as models for her children's imitation. She is 
 anxious that there should be no blemish in the splendor of holiness, 
 no faded flower in her coronal. She must be so well assured by the 
 evidence of facts and miracles of the eminent virtue with which it 
 has pleased God to endow the subject whose life is examined v.-ilh 
 reference to this holy distinction, that she has appointed a personao-e in 
 Rome, called the Devil's Advocate, whose duty it is when a candi- 
 date is proposed for beatification, to rake up all he can against him, 
 and thus prevent, not his entrance into heaven exactly, but the admis- 
 sion of his name into the calendar of saints. So that, what an illustrious 
 Protestant has said, " it is a miracle to prove a miracle at Rome," is 
 in fact, a proverb in the Ancient City. 
 
 Well, now, my friend says that it was necessary that there should 
 be a Judas, — tliat Ik; was mentioned in the Old 'iVstament — iiis is a 
 special case — unicine. Ihil my argument is so strong on this point, 
 that I will give up even the strong case of Judas, and j-et prevail. 
 Even Peter, with oaths, denied the knowle<lge of his God and Savior 
 Jesus Christ. The other apostles also abandoned him — a crime, bo 
 it noted, which the Novalians would have never pardoned. .'JU ihi'i 
 was foretold as well as the particular instance of Judas. So llr.it, if 
 he please, I will abandon this particular case, and argue as follows ; 
 
 Peter fell and was resuscitated ; the rest of the apostles fled; they 
 were ashamed, or afraid, of being thought the disciples of Christ. 
 They were not, however, rijerted. The gifts of (Jod were witli-nl re- 
 pentance in their regard, who having seen ami conversed with the 
 Word made Flesh, witnessed his miracles, and beheld the example 
 of his virtues, were, therefore, to human judgment, less excusable 
 for their desertion of the stricken Sheplierd. Why niay uni, at least, 
 equal mercy be extended, if not to llie popes, who were in this re- 
 spect less highly favored, at least, to the dtictrivr. of trutli which tho 
 apostles, and the popes were appointed to announce and to preservo 
 among men T Must God's holy law be broken to pieccu, and truth
 
 164 DEBATE ON TUE 
 
 perish from the earth, because there have been bad men, like Aaron, 
 ■who bow to the gohleii call" — to their passions 1 It is believed by 
 some to have been specially ordained by the good providence of God, 
 that Rome, once the mistress of the entire Pa^an world, should be 
 forever the chief see of the (Christian world ; thus verifying' the almost 
 prophetic words of one of her most gii'ted minds, " that the sun in 
 his course cannot behold any thing greater," We are told a fine sto- 
 ry about Constantia — like some less ancient rivals of the see of Pe- 
 ter, she was three hundred years too late to establish any claim to 
 the headship of the church, and especially by such means, in favor 
 of Constantinople. Now, my friends, why did Constantia want to 
 have the head of Paul at Constantinople ? It v^'as because it was 
 known that from the beginning Rome had possessed the prescriptive 
 right to the chief honor and authority, not only in the temporal, but 
 likewise in the spiritual kingdom. The seat of temporal power had 
 been transferred to Constantinople ; but the see of ecclesiastical su- 
 premacy was still at Rome, and like another Queen of lofty and arro- 
 gant pretensions, Constantia aspired to reign supreme, in Religion as 
 well as in Politics. According to the ideas of that time which show in 
 what veneration relics were b^'f^? she could set up no good claim for 
 the spiritual independence of Constantinoi)le, unless she had the head 
 of St. Paul brought from Rome, and in this she failed. 
 
 Gibbon says, and it is one of the few sterling truths he ever said, 
 (though it is a bull) that Rome would have perished amidst so many 
 revolutions, if she had not had within her a vital principle. This 
 reminds me of what my worthy antagonist said in the Presbyterian 
 church, quoting a French physician, during the session of the College 
 of Teachers, " that we might live forever if we could live without 
 eating." Rome lives, and is likely to live forever, whether by po- 
 rous absorption of vital aliment, or oy the " vts meiUcatrix Natuxx"^^ 
 which expels ^W peccant /lumors, it is unimportant to enquire. 
 
 Now I cannot see the applicability of the long passage from Gib- 
 bon, containing the answer of the Pope to Constantia. They tell a 
 similar story, and I believe Protestants credit it, about Julian's un- 
 dertaking to give the lie to the predictions of the prophets and of 
 Christ, regarding the temple of .lerusalem, by rebuilding that struc- 
 ture consigned by God to endh^ss destruction. Globes of fire, as his- 
 torians say, issued from the foundations, und so terrified the work- 
 men as to compel them to desist. I think it likely that this may have 
 happened, but, like the story of Constantia, it is no article of faith. 
 
 Now we come to the important doctrine of infallibility. It is a 
 doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that, when the whole world 
 was in error, when every thing was adored as God, save God himself, 
 and vice kept pace with error, the Almighty, pitying this darkness, 
 sent his Son, Christ Jesus, the Word made flesh, into this world to 
 teach and to redeem mankind. Jes\is Christ was God, equal to the 
 Father in every divine perfection. He possessed infinite wisdom to 
 choose, and infinite power to use the means necessary to the accom- 
 
 tlishment of the great Task imposed on him by his lleavenly Father, 
 [e performed miracles. He stood over the grave of a putrified corse, 
 and cried, " Lazarus come forth," and the dead man arose and went 
 home with his extacied sisters. He placed his hand on the bier in 
 which was borne the only son of the widow of Naim, and the mourn- 
 er's tears were dried in that son's living embrace. He gave hearing
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 165 
 
 to the deaf, he opened the eyes of the blind, he healed the paralytic. 
 The evidence of these wonders was such that even the skeptical Jew 
 was convinced, and all the people exclaimed that man had never 
 done the like. 
 
 When he had thus, by miracles, proved himself to be God, as it was 
 no part of his divine plan to remain always in a human form, nor to 
 visit any other nation, than Judea, although all the nations of the earth 
 throughout all ages were to have the gospel preached unto them, he 
 chose twelve men, whom he diligently instructed, as friends, and not 
 as servants, in all the mysteries of the kingdom. These he sent, as his 
 apostles, to preach the gospel to every creature. But before he sent 
 them, he assured them that he would abide with them forever. His 
 words were these: "All power is given me in heaven and in earth. 
 Going therefore teach ye all nations ; baptizing them in the name of 
 the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to 
 observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ; and behold I 
 am with you all days even to the consummation of the world." Matt, 
 xxviii. 9, 20. And that they might be infallible, he breathed on 
 them, saying, " Receive ye the Holy Ghost, who will teach you 
 ALL TRUTH, and bring all things to your mind whatsoever I have said 
 to you." John xiv. 26. "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot 
 receive because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him; but you shall 
 know him, because he shall abide with you and be in you." St. John 
 xiv. 17. This is the reason why the Catholic church believes in infalli- 
 bility : If every man enjoys the privilege of taking the bible according 
 to his own understaiuling thereof, the C'atiiolic should not be molested 
 in the exercise of a common right. He does take the bible for his 
 guide, and strong as any in Holy Writ is the proof he finds therein, 
 for the doctrine of an infallible authority established by Christ in his 
 church. The Savior tells the apostles, that he will be with them all 
 days — and says, " he that iikaueth vou hkareth me : and he that 
 despiseth you, despiseth me : and he that dcspiseth me, despiseth him 
 that sent me," &c. In the name of God, why did Jesus Christ say 
 these words, and inspire his disciples to record them, if we were 
 not to believe them 1 I cannot conceive how it is possible that we 
 should takf! these, bis most eni|)halic declarations, to mean any thing, 
 but what they obviously signify. Why did St. Paul say that the 
 church was the " pillar and ground of truth," if this pillar and that 
 foundation were to give way as soon as the apostles died, tliat is to say 
 in a few short years? Why did the ajxjslle coniinand all tu obey their 
 
 f)relates, if the whole edifice of truth would give way as soon as ho 
 lad disappeared from the earth 1 No, my friends, of the kingdom of 
 Jesus ('lirist there shall be no end, until ail nations shall be gathered 
 into the one fold under one shepherd : until we all meet in the i'nitv 
 OF faith: and not as bishop Home says, jumbling together an undi- 
 gested heap of contrarieties and jarring sects into tin; samcj mass, and 
 making the old chaos the plan of the new reformation. 
 
 I might dissert for hours on this subject, but I am compelled to 
 leave off here ; yet F beg my Protestant, I sincerely and from my 
 heart say, most ji'h\)ccU-(\ felbnv-eiii/,eriH to relhrt on these malters, 
 that they may not believe the misrepresentations of our doctrines, wliicb 
 they have loo often lie^ird, as 'f we had no good, scriptural grounds for 
 our faith. Such misrepresentation has done us mucli injury. It has
 
 166 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 been indulged in so long that I do not wonder at the horror of Catho- 
 lics, it has, in many instances, inspired. To this illiberal feeling mul- 
 titudes of Protestants are superior, I could almost say they are utterly 
 incapable of it- — they abhor it. Some of them are among the best 
 friends I have in this city. And it is not the only one where I am 
 proud to recognize them, and send them this humble tribute of my es- 
 teem and grateful reminiscence. 
 
 My friend said I had made concessions ; he too has been misinform- 
 ed, and knows more of our doctrine since the commencement of this 
 discussion, than he ever knew before. He will allow me to say that 
 I understand something of my own religion, and that as I can neither 
 add to nor detract from it, I exhibit its own portrait, and not a carica- 
 ture, and still less a flattering likeness. He says, the Protestants be- 
 lieve in the apostlefe' creed. Would to God they would even believe 
 in one single article of that creed ! " I believe in the Holy Catholic 
 church." But they do not : or one other article, in the same creed, in 
 the true sense of the words; " I believe in Jesus Christ." 
 
 Suppose I tell a man that I believe him; but persuade him to his 
 face, in spite of his repeated asseverations, that he did not say what he 
 says he did. Do I believe him ] Suppose 1 say I love him, and yet 
 do all I can to his injury, are my protestations what they ought to be 1 
 So it is with Jesus Christ. If you believe in him, you obey his words 
 and hear his church which he commands you to hear. It is vain to 
 say, I believe in Jesus Christ, unless we follow him also, and keep his 
 commandments. If we do not so, we are hypocrites, or, at least, we 
 deceive ourselves; and if we despise his church, he assures us most 
 positively, that we despise himself. "If any man," says he, " will 
 not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publi- 
 can." Matt, xviii. 17. 
 
 But we are told that the meaning of " the church" is the whole con- 
 gregation of the faithful scattered through the earth. If so, must I 
 traverse the whole earth and appeal to every individual believer for an 
 explanation of the law, or a defence of my innocence ? This is 
 clearly impossible. Whereas Christ's injunction supposes the exist- 
 ence of a tribunal, which he commands me to hear, as I would hear 
 him; which he commands me to hear, under the penalty of being 
 reputed a heathen and a publican. If this tribunal could pronounce 
 falsely, would Christ have commanded me thus to hear and obey it, 
 as I should hear and obey himself? I hope the desired answer will 
 be given to this question. 
 
 Again, my friend says all Protestants believe the apostles' creed. 
 But suppose a gentleman of the Unitarian denomination should say, 
 I believe in the apostles' creed — would a Protestant of another denom- 
 ination credit it 1 A Unitarian believes in Jesus Christ, but how does 
 he believe in him, when he denies his divinity 1 Here is the vice and 
 error of the Protestant system. They all say, I believe Christ, I be- 
 lieve the bible ; when they make (Christ and the bible teach the most 
 contrary doctrines; and all think they are going to heaven — all think 
 they believe the same Savior. Alas ! how many souls has not this 
 error lured from the only path that conducts to eternal life ! " There 
 is a way which seemtth to a man to be right," says the holy scripture, 
 "but the end thereof leads down to hell." The sects of Protestants 
 are diametrically opposed \.<3 each other. They are at greater anti-
 
 E03tA>' CATICOLIC RELIGIOX. 167 
 
 podes than the two Indies. Two men of different sects will meet : 
 says one, "Do 5-ou believe in Christ V " Yes." " But you do not be- 
 lieve in him as God ?" '-No." "No matter, v>e are both good believers." 
 A^ain, two others — " Do you believe in Christ?" " Yes V " But you 
 not believe in a hell V " No." " No matter, we are both sound ortho- 
 dox christians." Or again," Do you believe in Christ]" "Yes." "But 
 you don't believe in baptism" — and so if goes. 
 
 Now Jesus Christ cannot contradict himself: he cannot say things 
 incompatible with eacli other, as that two and two make four ; and 
 two and two make five. My friends, I come here not to attack other 
 sects. I come onl)- to defend the truth. Of all religions, all teach- 
 ing, as they do, contrary doctrines, one only can be right. If one 
 only can be true, all others must be untrue. Have you ascertained 
 which is that true one 1 And if so, how have you ascertained it? To 
 whatever denomination you may belong, your Protestant neighbor, as 
 enlightened, as conscientious and as pious in his own opinion as you 
 are, thinks you have embraced dangerous error, and Jesus Christ 
 sounds in your ears the dreadful words, *' He that believeth not" — 
 not what he thinks is right, but what is right — " shall be damned.''^ 
 Mark xvi. 16. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Pour o'clock, P, M. 
 Mr. Campbell risei — 
 
 \ hope we shall better understand e^ch other. The question be- 
 tween Protestants and Roman Catholics, on the subject of infallibility 
 as respects the faith, is usually propounded in the following form: 
 * li there an infallible rule <if faith .'' Both parlies, answer in the; af- 
 firmative. Then, ' IVhere shall it he found?'' Each party then sets about 
 defining and wrestling about this said infallible rule. The Protestant 
 says, the bible alone is his infallible rule; and the Romanist says the 
 church, or the bible explained by the church, is his infallible rule ! 
 Thus the Protestant rests upon the bible and the Romanist upon the 
 church — neither of which make men infallible. We apprehend there 
 is a sophism some where in the phraseology : for both parlies have 
 exhausted folios on tliis subject and seem often to iiave retired from 
 the arena e(|ually perplexed. My antagonist seems to be much in 
 advance of me, and sometimes so far in my rear as to he out of sight. 
 Meanwhile, he will please not to forget that it is my province, at least, 
 to sketch out my own method of discussion, and lead the way. My 
 last spcccli is certainly y<t unanswcrinl. 
 
 I do not choose the phraseology wliicii has been jinpular in some 
 diseussions, on tho subject of the rub' of faith. There is too much 
 ambiguity, too much room for logomachy in some of these definitions. 
 There is, in strict propriety, no infallii)le rule of faith. Nor is it pos- 
 sible there can be: for men and angels have erred under all rules. I 
 wish to be iindc^rHtood. Tiic torms fallible and iifalHlile do not at all 
 apply to Ihini^x : they only a|)p!y to persons. We may have a per- 
 fect and complete — or a sufficient nilr : but we cannot hav(> an infal- 
 lible one. 'I he fallibility, or the infallibility is in the ajiplication of 
 the rule — not in the ruir itself. The merhanirian may have a perfect 
 rule; anri yet err in measuring any superficies. Ft is not possible in 
 mechanics, nor in morals, nor in religion, to have a rule which will 
 prevent error : so long as those who use it are free and fallible agents. 
 As Paul said on an occasion, not cxnctly similar, we may here say :
 
 168 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ' If there could have been a law given to free agents, which would 
 havo*precUuled error, verily God would have given it. But as he 
 has not given any such law, therefore, there has been error in heaven 
 as on earth. Angels fell and Adam apostatized. I own, it may be 
 said, that in common parlance, we figuratively talk of an infallible 
 rule. I admit that we do, and that is the reason, when we come to 
 debate the mattc^r, the parties are confounded : for the bible alone, or 
 the bible on the table ; and the church alone, or the church and the 
 bible together, have made no one free from error. Therefore, there 
 is no infallible rule in truth : but we have a perfect rule, and if we 
 apply it perfectly, it will make us perfect. So far, then, as infallibi- 
 lity is concerned, if there be truth in these remarks, both parties are 
 again equal. Our rule is the bible alone. The Roman Catholic 
 rule contains one hundred and thirty five large folio volumes 
 superadded To the bible, and the apocrypha ! These are composed 
 of the following parts and parcels: 1st Apostolical Fathers 35 folios, 
 2nd Eight volumes of Decretals, 3rd Ten volumes of Bulls of the 
 Popes; 4th Thirty one volumes of Canons and Decrees of Councils; 
 6th Fifty one folios of the Acta Sanctorum — Acts of the Saints, amount- 
 ing in ail to, — one hundred and thirty five volumes folio. Our rules, 
 then, differ exceedingly in point of length, breadth and thickness. The 
 Roman Catholic rule is exceedingly unwieldy. It requires a whole 
 council to move it, and apply it to a single opinion. Ours is, at least, 
 portable. — But still the phrase rule of faith is not Protestant. The 
 bible is the faith ; and that testimony is the rule and measure of our 
 belief: for in logical truth testimony is the only proper rule of faith. 
 However, the question is not strictly, what is the rule of faith ? 
 
 We both agree that the true reason of infallibility is inspiration. I 
 was glad to hear this noble concession from my learned opponent. 
 Jesus Christ was able to give a perfect rule. He therefore inspired 
 twelve apostles to form that rule, and enjoined us to hear them. So 
 far, there is no difference between ils. We both have a perfect rule, 
 and that perfect rule is the bible ; and the reason of its perfection is 
 its inspiration. But where is the inspiration of the one hundred and 
 thirty five folios ? Does it require this immense library to make us 
 understand the bible ? However, if my friend can establish their in- 
 spiration, and show that .Tcsus Christ has spoken in these volumes; 
 we will adopt them without controversy. But there is a want of uni- 
 formity in the Catholic faith (even with the help of these volumes :) 
 and-hence the four sects mentioned just before I sat down, on the 
 question, where shall this infallibility be found : for after all the one 
 hundred and thirty five volumes lying on the table, are no better than 
 the bible lying on the table, the Roman Catholics being judges. — They 
 must have an infallible interpreter of these volumes. Where shall he be 
 found 1 " Some say that infallibility resides in the head of the church : 
 2nd, Others, that it resides in a general council, in which the church 
 is represented : although such a general council never sat. 3rd, Others 
 argue, that it lies neither in the pope, nor in the council separately : 
 but in the two combined — a 4th party says that it lies neither in the 
 pope, nor in the council, nor in both : but in the whole church, re- 
 sponding to any question. Now might we not call these font parties ? 
 Do our controversies about atonement, or election &c. make us more 
 truly sects, than do these different interpretations make parties in the 
 Roman church ] But where shall infallibility be found 1 If this can-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 169 
 
 not be shown, it is of no more use to us in time of need, than a 
 mountain of gold in the bottom of the ocean ; or a field of diamonds in 
 the moon. I hope the gentleman will clearly ascertain this point, and 
 make us all understand where we shall find this infallibility. We 
 would like to know, how the combination of a given number of falli- 
 bles will make one infallible being; or, by what laws of neutraliza- 
 tion the fallibility of every member of the church is destroyed, and 
 the whole mass becomes infallible. But if the infallibility of a dogma 
 depends on inspiration, what is the use of councils, unless the pro- 
 mise of infallibility be made exclusively to councils'? 
 
 But I have no necessity for the argument which I had framed on 
 this point. The bishop attributes infallibility to iuspiration — not to 
 combination : So do Protestants. Therefore on this cardinal point we 
 seem more likely to agree, than I expected. Protestants have then 
 an inspired creed, and this gives to them all the infallibility, which 
 Roman Catholics claim to themselves: but should any one say that 
 the majority of a council constitutes infallibility, then we should have 
 to enquire into the reasons of the infallibility of said majority; and 
 for the sake of some of that class, I would here state that these ma- 
 jorities often are very lean minorities of the church. The council of 
 Trent debated eighteen years, during which time she held twenty five 
 sessions. In one session th-cre were but forty eight bishops, and they 
 not the most learned. A majority of these determined that the apo- 
 crypha was inspired, and that it with the Vulgate Old and New Tes- 
 tament; was of paramount authority in the church. Twenty five 
 bishops, a majority of forty eight, represent the whole christian com- 
 munity ! The question now is, were these men inspired while they 
 were voting this dogma? I wish the bishop to state his views on this 
 point clearly, if indeed he thinks that inspiration is at all an attribute 
 or a gift promised to majorities however loan. 
 
 But, my friends, when you have got this ponderous creed from the 
 decisions of general councils, must it not be interpreted ? Must not 
 the dogma of a majority be also interpreted? And who is to interpret 
 them? Every man for himself] Then are you Protestants; or, Ro- 
 manists working by the Protestant rules. After all, I see nothing 
 gained by all this expensive and ponderous machinery. Is not every 
 Roman Catholic obliged to judge for himself on the meaning of every 
 dogma, and whether he oiught to receive or reject it? Then, I ask, 
 are not the inspired verses of the Old and New Testament as easily 
 interpreted,as the inspired decrees of thes(> councils ? Did not the Spirit 
 that inspired the aposlbs, teach as clearly, as the falhrrs in their coun- 
 cils? I wish to understand the bishop more accurately on these points. 
 
 The gentleman (I regret to state it) spoke of Protestants as hating 
 the Roman ('atholics, from a supposed ignorance of their creed. For 
 myself, and for Protestants generally, I disavow the idea, and the 
 Idnguagt; of hatred towards Romanists, as such. We feci the same 
 humanity and benevolence towards Roman Catholics, as men, as to 
 Protestants. We always discriminate between tenets and men, a 
 system or theory, and those who hold it. With open arms, I would 
 welcome to our shores the oppressed of all nations, Romanists and 
 Protestants. I would extend to the Roman ('atholic every facility to 
 improve his condition by immigration into this favored land, provided 
 only I were free from all suspicion, that his faith in the pope and 
 P 33
 
 170 DKBATK OS THIS 
 
 molher-cliurch, would not induce him or Ills children to wrest from me 
 or mine, that freedom and liherty which I would pladly participate 
 with him. I oppose his religion ; hecause, 1 sincerely tliink it enslaves 
 him, and would enslave me, if it had the power. But, in all this there 
 is no hatred to Roman Catholics as men. We are devoted to American 
 institutions, because they are humane. For the sake of Romanists, as 
 well as Protestants, we desire to see them permanent. We fear the 
 exclusive, proscriptive, and despotic system of Romanism; but we 
 feel nothing but benevolence to Roman Catholics. 
 
 My worthy opponent has done us great honor in saying, that he 
 knows many excellent Protestants, whom he esteems highly as good 
 men. Of course, then, they may be saved out of the Roman Catholic 
 church. If so, what is the difference between his infallible and our 
 fallible faith ? I cannot find time to reply to any remarks of my oppo* 
 nent, not made in reference to my arguments. — [Minus 5 minute-s.] 
 
 Half-past 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 Bishop Purcem. rists — 
 
 I shall reply to what has been said, and then pursue my own line 
 of argument. The Catholic church claims to have an infallible rule 
 of faith and an infallible code of morals. The former would be of 
 little use without the latter. So intimate is the connection between 
 sound faith and sound morals, that we hold that if the Catholic code 
 of morals is vicious, she is not infallible in doctrine. If the working 
 of her code of morals is proved to lead, or to have led, into vice, she 
 is not infallible. This never has been proved, nor ever can it be. 
 But the contrary to this has been proved, and its proof is cumulative. 
 The darkest ages furnish some of its brightest illustrations. She 
 does not pretend to be infallible in discipline, in the sense of its im- 
 mutability. The gentleman confounds discipline with morals, and 
 this want of clearness of ideas is the source of the entire difficulty. 
 Discipline, I think, I have explained. It regulates the dress of the 
 clergy, the liturg'ical language, the time of singing hallelujah, the 
 mode of shaving the head, or making the tonsure, the giving of the 
 cup to the laity, the use of leavened, or unleavened bread for the sa- 
 crament, selection of days for feasts and fasts, &C. &c. The church 
 must have the power of changing in these respects-^in other words 
 of adapting her discipline to times, and countries. And all this, so 
 far from being an imperfection is a proof of her perfection, of her 
 having been established by Jesus Christ to teach, and guide, and sanc- 
 tify all nations for ever. I did not state the crude proposition, which 
 the gentleman has attributed to me, viz. that the pope is as fallible as 
 I am. I would not compare myself thus to him. I occupy an humble 
 station compared to his, and I am conscious of the want of those em- 
 inently distinguished qualities of head and heart which compose his 
 character. He has grace and lights which I have not. The gentle- 
 man tells Protestants a flattering tale, that they have as infallible a 
 rule, as Cathojics. This is keeping the word of promise to the ear 
 and breaking it to the heart. Does he not in the same speech, ac- 
 knowledge that their fallible opinions, doctrines, traditions make their 
 own rule, the bible, vain and nothing worth ? The bible is a dead let- 
 ter — all pretend to find their conflicting tenets in it. Where is then, 
 the infallible rulel Does he not charge Protestants as well as Cath-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 171 
 
 olics with error. And why T The gentleman said, where is the use 
 of the head, without the body ! I ask where is the use of a body 
 without a head ] And he said, if the body regulates the head it is 
 anomalous. But what is it that sends vitality to the head ? Is it not 
 the heart with its healthful pulses and its quickening current 1 The 
 pope is the head — the council is the heart — and I have no objection 
 to his calling the laity the members, to continue the figure. While 
 there is no schism in the members, no separation of the head or of the 
 heart, all is soundness and life — so in the church — pope, pastors, and 
 laity. United we stand, divided you fall. The true theory of the 
 church, like that of the human body, is union. Ask not, does the 
 heart, alone, or the head alone, or the members alone contain the vital 
 principle — they sympathize ; they live and move and have their being 
 together. God seems to address himself to the head and to the heart 
 in the revealed definitions of his essence. " I am who am," and " God 
 IS LOVE," one of these definitions is for the reason, the other for the 
 affections; one for the Old Testament, the other for the New. Both, 
 however, come from the same source and tend to define Him — liiFE, 
 Wisdom and Love. 
 
 The division of truth into objective and subjective is correct — but 
 objective revealed truth is the tchole truth revealed by God, wherever 
 found and in whatever manner conveyed. What is the use of this, 
 without subjective truth, or our own knowledge and conviction that 
 we possess objective truth, and that we are si/re of possessing iti Of 
 this, the Protestant, who rejects authority in religion, and pretends to 
 find out religion for himself, from a book, which he acknowledges, fal- 
 lible men handed to him, can never be euro. The fact, the testimony, 
 the belief of the testijuony, the feeling consentaneous with the belief, 
 and the correspondent action, are all human faith and natural feeling, 
 struggling, and striving for some higher and bitter gifts, which it can- 
 not attain without infallible assurance, without the Catholic rule. What 
 is the testimony that might be deceived itself and niight deceive me 1 
 
 He says we (Jatiioiics have a very broad rulc-^i;35 folios. No such 
 thing. We have a (juitf couvciiiirit pocket-rule. It is the pearl of 
 
 freat value — a diamond, with w hich we cut the brittle glass of mere 
 uman creeds in pieces, and wjllj which we solve every difficulty. 
 It is this : " I believe in the Holy Catholic church." They were tho 
 apostles — he was Christ wlio gave it to us. It does not supj)ose ig- 
 norance, or servile actjuieBcence. It lifts us above error, giving us a 
 divine warrant for every tenet of our faith, and directing our under- 
 standings and hearts to God, who speaks to us by his church. I 
 hope I did not understand my friend correctly this morning, but if I 
 have he has uttered horrid blasjjhemy. I understood him lo say that 
 God could not have given a perfect rule (to make man infallible, and 
 prevent him from error.) 
 
 Mr. ("amphell explained. He had said that God could not create 
 a hill without a valley — could not make man a free agent and bind him. 
 
 Bishop PurirEM,. (/'ould not (iod have created tlie angels so that 
 they could not fall into sin? 
 
 Mr. Campiiell. 'I'here can be no virtue nor vice, without liberty 
 of choice : neither in man nor in angel. 
 
 Bishop PuRfCLi,. My friend lias said that Ciod could not have cre- 
 ated angels or men virtuous without making them free to sin. The 
 angels of heaven are not free to do wrong, ar« they not virtuoa« ?
 
 172 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Mr. Campbell. If such is the nature of angels, they are virtuous 
 by nature. Perfect liberty consists in acting in unison with our na- 
 ture. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. Then the angels arc virtuous without being free. 
 If the rebel angels were virtuous by nature, how did they happen to 
 fain And could not Cod have made the angels who are now good, 
 by nature, or by grace, such from creation ■? I will now continue my 
 argument. It does not exceed the power of God to make man infal- 
 lible. Christ was infallible; for he was God. Now if he could 
 make twelve men infallible, as Mr. C. admits the apostles were, why 
 could he not perpetuate the same power in favor of his entire church, 
 since such infallible authority to teach his true doctrine is as necessa- 
 ry now, as it was at any former time % 
 
 Now I have another strong argument here — it is old with us, but 
 suggested anew by readifig one of the Protestant papers, from New 
 York. It is the Palladium, and my friend seems to know the editor, 
 for he himself has given occasion for the very article in question. The 
 argument is this : If tradition be fallible, and it was not known for 
 300 years, what books of the bible were genuine, and what spu- 
 rious, how shall we ascertain that we have the bible 1 How shall we 
 ever know that the book is the book of God 1 The making of the ca- 
 non or list of books composing the inspired volume, was a difficulty 
 yielding to but few others in magnitude, during the first four hundred 
 years of Christianity, when, if we must believe my friend, infallibility 
 had departed, with the last of the apostles, to heaven. How then can 
 we be sure that our present canon is correct? Catholics can be sure 
 on this vital point, for they have the voucher of ^n infallible guardian 
 of the holy deposit, for its correctness; but Protestants, who have no 
 such tribunal to enlighten them, how can they be sure? Catholics 
 hold that infallibility was promised to the church by Jesus Christ. Its 
 testimony is heard in a general council, or in the pope's decision in 
 which all assent. The church can subsist without a general council, 
 General councils are not essential — though frequently of use, because, 
 though we all believe without cxcepUnn, that the pope's decision, in 
 which, after it has been duly made known, all the bishops of the Ca- 
 tholic world acquiesce, is infallible, still the decision of a general 
 council declares in a more impressive and solemn, though not more aur 
 thentic, manner, the belief of tire Catholic world on the contested doc- 
 trine, and thus more effectually proscribe the contrary error. The 
 celebrated Protestant, Leibnitz, remarked that there could be no cer- 
 tainty of a correct decision on religious matters, equal to that afforded 
 by the decision of a general council. The four sects Mr. C. speaks 
 of all agree in the belief of the infallibility of the church representa- 
 tive and of the church responsive; if I must employ these technical 
 terms — and as he asks " could not the Holy Ghost, who inspired the 
 apostles, teach as clearly as the Fathers in their councils ?" I answer, 
 ' Yes,' and he has so taught us to "heau the church," for, tio prophe- 
 cy nf scripture is of any private interpretation. 
 
 Let me now vindicate the humblest Roman Catholic of my flock, or 
 of the world, from the charge of pinning his faith to the sleeve of any 
 man, or of surrendering his conscience to the keeping of his priest. 
 Catholics do not believe because the priest tells them to believe, butbe- 
 cause they consider him to be the faithful interpreter of Christ and the
 
 BOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 173 
 
 organ of the church, but should he dissent from the oracles of God and 
 his ecclesiastical superiors, that moment they Avould quit him. They 
 see his teaching- accords with that which they have heard from others, 
 which they have read, as the Catholic doctrine. If they doubt, they 
 ask other priests, or the bishop. Thus while they know the priest to 
 be orthodox, they hear him, or rather the church, they hear God and 
 they believe God. And in this there is no servility. The faith he 
 teaches and the moral law he expounds, have both come from God, and 
 to God they owe and pay their vows. My friend misapprehends me. 
 I did not say that Protestants haled Catholics. I say that some Pro- 
 testants are often prejudiced against them, and I wondered they are not 
 more so. If he could prove the odious proposition so long before you, 
 the Catholic church would be a monster. I am sorry my friend has 
 misunderstood the doctrines of the Catholics, and I am glad of the op- 
 portunity which is thus afforded me, of coming before the public and 
 showing what are our real sentiments. 
 
 I come to the doctrine of infallibility again. I will begin my argu- 
 ment this evening, and conclude perhaps to-morrow morning. I beg 
 leave to read what I have myself written on this subject : 
 
 Whoever reflects upon the countless varieties of human character, 
 the ignorance of some men, the prejudices of others, the passions of 
 all, will scarcely require that we should expend much time or labor to 
 prove, that as long as men are commanded to form their religion 
 for themselves, even though the book ihey receive for their guide 
 should be the plainest in its language that divine wisdom could bestow, 
 the sources of error will be never drained. No matter how pure the 
 doctrine of that book, how holy its precepts, how luminous its evi- 
 dences, occasions will occur, when these doctrines will be contested, 
 these precepts denied, tiiese beaming evidences obscure to the pride, 
 the voluptuousness, and the love of independence, inherent in a per- 
 verted nature. Man, under the influence of such feelings, will read, 
 will write ; he will communicate his doubts and impart his prejudices 
 to others; he will originate new creeds, and form new sects ; he will 
 raise altar against altar, and desk against desk ; nor will any one, 
 consistently with Protestant principles, have a right to ask him why 
 he does so. At the beginning of the sixteenth century, when the right 
 of forming r<;iigion, every man for himself, and tiie bible for \is all, 
 was first jjromulgated, the fierco self-coristitiitrd apostle sounded a 
 deafening peal of defiance, and dcnounctul ail authority in religious 
 concerns as spiritual tyranny. " Read the scriptures !" he vociferated 
 to the astonished crowd of wise or foolish, learned or unlearned, that 
 thronged to hear him. " Road the scriptures, and judge for yourselves : 
 your reason and tin; sj)irit will enable you to understand them, as eas- 
 ily as you can discern hot from cold, or sweet from bitter. Read tho 
 scriptures : they that run may read. Judge for yourselves !" They 
 did read, they did judge for themselves; aiul they decided against 
 their aposth'S, aiui against one another! 
 
 " When hell," says an illustrious writer, " prepares some terrible 
 calamity for mankind, it flings upon the earth a pregnant evil, consign- 
 ing its development to time." The time for the (levelopment of this 
 raiscliief was brief. The word was uttered, and it could not be re- 
 called : the prinriple was eslablishcjd, wliifh it w;ts tonlatt! to rescind. 
 The disciples of tho new apostles, reading, judging, deciding, became 
 p2
 
 174 DEBATE ON TIIK 
 
 apostles themselves. They claimed the right their teachers exercised. 
 They claimed it to change, as they had changed. The Lutherans, 
 muUitudes of them, hecame Calviiiists ; Calvinists, Independents; 
 Independents, Anabaptists ; each sect the prolific parent of twenty 
 others, all differing from one another, as much as each one differed 
 from its parent — innovation. Mark now the inconsistency to which 
 the evil working of this scheme reduced the first claimants of a right 
 unheard of for fifteen centuries. " Obey !" they now cry aloud, with 
 terror, "obey your superiors; submit to the pastors whom God has 
 appointed to rule the faithful. It is their duty to instruct you, yours 
 to follow the guidance of their wisdom." " What," they exclaimed, 
 " becomes of the subordination which the scriptures so frequently en- 
 join, if each one can be the arbiter of his own belief? What becomes 
 of humility, which religion so forcibly inculcates, if every individual 
 
 f (resumes to be an oracle and a judge 1 Wiiat would become of civil 
 aw and social harmony and order, if the acts of our legislatures were 
 left to the interpretation of every interested litigant] Forbear! for- 
 bear !" Such was the restraint, as every one knows, which Luther 
 was under the inevitable necessity of imposing on the first followers 
 of his revolt, in order to counteract the'elTects of the disastrous prin- 
 ciple of mental emancipation, so highly eulogized when it was first 
 proclaimed, and received with so much enthusiasm, until it was found 
 to be a very Babel of the confusion of all creeds — another name, or 
 else a cloak, for deism and positive infidelity. When we reason on 
 principles rightly understood, whose immediate bearings and remotest 
 consequences have been exposed to the examination of the reflecting 
 world, for the last three hundred years, these arguments are as con- 
 clusive to-day, as they were when first urged ; and when the right of 
 any individual to believe whatever errors he honestly conceives to be 
 truths revealed in scripture, is contested, he may say to his accusers, 
 in the eloquent language of the Protestant remonstrants to the synod 
 of Don (itself Protestant), which had infringed their privileges in this 
 respect: "Why exact that our inspiration, or our judgment, should 
 yield to your opinion'? The opinion of any society, our apostles, the 
 first reformers, declared to be fallible; and, consequently, to exact 
 submission to its dictates, they, with great consistency, defined to be 
 tyranny. Thus they decided with regard to tiie church of Rome; and 
 you, yourselves, have sanctioned their decision. Why, therefore, ex- 
 ercise a domination over us, which you stigmatized as tyranny in a 
 church, compared to whose greatness you dwindle jnto insignificance. 
 If resistance to the decisions of our pastors be a crime, then let us 
 wipe out the stain of our origin, and run back together to the fold of 
 Catholicity, whicii you and we have abandoned. If such resistance 
 be no crime, why require of us a submission which we do not owe 
 you. Allow us to differ from you, as you do from the parent church." 
 From the unanswerable logic of this remonstrance, the conclusion 
 follows irresistibly : 1. That every society formed on Protestant prin- 
 ciples, being essentially fallible, none should assert the inconsistent 
 pretension of controlling faith by authority, or of regulating creeds, 
 under pretence of superior wisdom. 2. That no such society, and, 
 therefore, no individual, in such society, can be sure of being in the 
 right, as long as his Protestant neighbor, with as many resources of 
 information, and as piously inclined as himself, has embraced the very
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 175 
 
 contrary of his opinion. 3. That as the entire system is based on the 
 possibility of each one's beino; mistaken, vhere the most learned and 
 pious have adopted such opposite conclusions, no one can ever make 
 an act of divine faith, which is incompatible with uncertainty, and 
 much more so with error. 4. That, as long as such a principle is up- 
 held, there is no hope of union, no security ; consequently, that either 
 the whole system is false, or some expedient of union and unity must 
 be discovered, to induce any conscientious and rational inquirer after 
 truth, to believe that the Protestant society exemplifies the efficacy of 
 the prayer of Christ for his disciples, the night before he suffered, that 
 " Ihey may be made perfect in one^ We entreat our readers seriously 
 to look into the different religions professing to have been founded by 
 Jesus Christ, and seriously ask themselves the question, in which of 
 all these, that " perfect oneness" (which, better than all other proofs, 
 establishes the divinity of the Son of God, and convinces the entire 
 world how much his heavenly Father loved him, and those whom he 
 had given to him) may be found. Let not this inquiry be neglected, 
 fioryet performed lightly : eternal life or death may be the consequence 
 of its good or bad prosecution. 
 
 Error in religion, when it results from the neglect of sincere and 
 prayerful enquiry, is criminal. This no intelligent Christian will de- 
 ny. God is as essentially the God of truth, as he is the God of vir- 
 tue. He can no more sanction error, than he can tolerate vice. His 
 right is as absolute to the submission of the understanding, as to the 
 obedience of the will; and as he, who violates one commandment 
 will not be saved for the observance of the rest, so he that rejects 
 one truth, which Almighty God has revealed — not that we may ex- 
 amine, contest, adopt or reject — but that we may believe it, has lost 
 the merit of saving faith. It is to fix the otherwise perpetual varia- 
 tions of the human mind, and secure the anchor of our faith, not in 
 the moving sands of man's vacillating Judginriits and uncertain opin- 
 ions, but by lodging it deeply and indissohibly in the roc/?- which the 
 Divine Architect has made the foundation of his church, and against 
 which the winds of error and the rain of dissolving scandal will rage 
 and beat in vain, that the ]Vurd made Flesh vouchsafed to become the 
 I^ight of the world. 
 
 The misfortune of the great majority of mankind at the present 
 day, is not so much a blind fanatical attachment, (bad as this is) to 
 the sect in which they chanced to ho born, or worn first instructed, 
 as a certain latitude of principle, which has obtained the specio\is 
 name of liberality, and \\hicli rcsolv(;s itsrlf into a fatal and uiirca- 
 Bonable indifference to all religions, true or false. The infidel who 
 has had but too frequent occasion to exult at the success of a wily 
 system of hostility to revealed truth, affects to be unable to restrain 
 hiH delight at brliolding variety pervading the religious, as well 
 as the physical world. Diversity of creeds is as pleasing to his eye, 
 as the discrepancy of features in tht; human countenance. Incajiahle 
 of reasoning, out of the sphere of matUir, of which it is his inverted 
 ambition to be a part, he; holds the diflfi rent religions profcHsed by 
 men to be so many institutions, |)rescril>ing for each country a uni- 
 form manner of honoring («od in public; all foundrti and having their 
 peculiar reasons in the climate, tlu' mode of government, the genius
 
 176 DKBATE ON THE 
 
 of the people, or in some other local cause, which renders one form 
 of religion preferable, for them, to another. 
 
 The conclusion to be drawn from this doctrine, in as much as it 
 levels all distinctions between trutli and falsehood, pood and evil, is 
 humiliatingr to reason — but tln^ infidel, for once consistent, recoils not 
 before it: the following is his language — " Sincerely profess, piously 
 practise the religion of the country in which you live. In other words, 
 born in a pagan country, adore its gods — sacrifice to Jupiter, to Mars, 
 to Priapus, or to Apollo. In Egypt, you will render divine honors 
 to the sacred ox, and the crocodile ; in Phenicia, you will pass your 
 children through the fires of Moloch ; in one country, you will im- 
 molate human victims to your idol ; in another, you will humbly bow 
 before a block of marble, or of wood — before an animal, fossil, or a 
 plant. Be not afraid ; God will not send one man to heaven for hav- 
 ing been born in Rome, nor another to hell for having been born in 
 Constantinople. Therefore, in the latter place you will cry, ' God is 
 God and Mahomet is his prophet ;' and in the former, you will ana- 
 thematise the impostor. A Christian in Europe, a Mussulman in 
 Persia, an Idolater in Congo, on the banks of the Ganges an adorer 
 of Vishnou, let not truth dictate the choice of your religion, but 
 chance — let not reason decide, but the measurement of a degree of 
 latitude, or longitude. Your credulous parent paid divine honors to 
 an onion ; preserve this domestic worship — a son can never do wrong 
 in following the religion of his father." But all this, it will be said, 
 is unworthy of God and degrading to man. Not at all, he replies, 
 all religions are equal — you were born in this, to practise another would 
 be presumption. Such is the reasoning of the instructor of Emile, 
 the theology of Hobbes, the profession of faith of the author of Zaire. 
 
 " Chretienne dans Faris, Mussulmane en ces lieux, 
 J'aurois avec la Grece adore les faux Dieux." 
 
 That the unbeliever should thus eat promiscuously of the fruit of 
 the tree of good and evil, life and death, should not create surprise. 
 His joy consists in his being able to doubt of the validity of the proofs 
 of religion — his only peace in life, his only security in death being 
 made to depend on the delusive conviction of the improbability of ever 
 arriving with certainty at the knowledge of revealed truth — the only 
 truth, after all, it must be admitted, which it is necessary for man to 
 know — and consequently the only truth which God is bound by all his 
 essential and unchangeable attributes to enable us to attain. 
 
 The basis of Protestant belief is, that the Scripture, this book of di- 
 vine revelation, is the only rule of faith ; and that Jesus Christ having 
 left on earth no living infallible authority to interpret it, every man is 
 obliged to expound it, for himself, or in other words, to seek in it the 
 religion, in which he is to live and by which he must be saved. His 
 duty is to believe, what, it seems to him, this book clearly teaches and 
 what as far as he has ascertained by subjecting it to the test of private 
 examination, contradicts not his reason : and as no man has a right to 
 say to another, " my reason is more vigorous, my judgment more sound 
 than yours," it follows that every man should abstain from condemn- 
 ing the interpretation of another and should consider all religions, at 
 least, as good and as safe as his own. This is the infidel principle in 
 disguise. The Deist takes the book of nature, the Protestant takes 
 the Bible. The former reads in his book, that the Supreme Being must
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 177 
 
 be pleased with the diversity of worship rendered him by his creatures, 
 that no one is to be more accountable for errors which, however discord- 
 ant in themselves, when softened and mellowed by being mingled with 
 the errors of others, ascend to the deity in the grateful harmony of uni- 
 versal praise. The latter, with this only difference that he contracts 
 the range of the Infidel's misapprehension of religion, and for the book 
 of the universe takes the bible, contends for the same erroneous prin- 
 ciple. 
 
 I need not shew, its workings to this enlightened audience. They 
 are ruinous in the extreme. — [Time expired.] 
 
 WEDNESDAY, Jaxdaby 18th., Half-patt 9 o'clock, J. M. 
 
 Mr. Campbell rise^ — 
 
 I appear before you this morning, fellow-citizens, in prosecution of 
 my third proposition: and as this is the fifth day of the discussion, 
 we must proceed with more despatch. We shall then advance direct- 
 ly to that part of our proposition which speaks of Roman Catholic uni- 
 ty and uniformity — only intimating to my hearers, that the bishop's 
 remarks in his last speech upon the infallibility of tradition; and his 
 effort to make the succession of the popes to rest upon the same au- 
 thority with our faith in the bible, will be disposed of under proposi- 
 tion the 6lh. 
 
 There are two bonds of union in all societies, general and special, — 
 the first connects with the whole ; the second with a part, one or more 
 individuals. We explain by examples: 1st. Take the Turkish em- 
 pire. It is united on the divine authority of the Koran, and the divine 
 mission of Mahomet. Acquiescence in these is the general bond of 
 union. But 2nd. There are special bonds, such as unite the respective 
 orders of Mahometans, as the orders of Ali and Omar. These orders 
 are distinct: they are united by a special construction of the Koran. 
 Belief in the Koran is like general attraction : agreement in a particu- 
 lar view of it is like attraction of cohesion. So among christians. 
 Roman Catholics are united in one great generic idea which charac- 
 terizes the whole sect. That is, the belief in a supreme head of the 
 church on earth — a vicar of Christ : and add to that, the exclusive 
 power and authority of the bishops. " Bishops are the bond of union 
 amongst (Jatholics." The clergy, indeed, are the general bond of 
 union amongst Romanists. But there are also special bonds and par- 
 ties in that society, of which wc shall take some notice. Protestants 
 have a general bond of union in a generic consideration, as distinguish- 
 ing as that of Mahometans and Roman ('alholirs. Acknowledging 
 the biblf alone, as the only |)erfect and sufficient rule of faith and man- 
 nerB, and the duty of all mankind to examine it for themselves, accord- 
 ing to their respective abilitips and opportunities, is th«; generic charac- 
 teristic of Protestants. It is one of the general ideas, in which are 
 united, antl whi'-h uiiitra all Proifstants. But in th« second place they 
 are united in a most perO^rt and unanimous rfimiicialion of that hier- 
 archical authority which is the very essence of Rnrnan (-atholicism. 
 I affirm that all Protralanls are as perfectly united in these two grand 
 principles, as the Roman Catholics arc in that of a supremo head in 
 
 23
 
 178 DKBATK O.N TIIH 
 
 Rome, and ill the belief of tradition. Diflerent saints and their pecu- 
 liarities in the Roman Catholic church are specific bonds of union, and 
 as much heads of orders, as aro the leaders and views of Protestant 
 sects. But the Protestants are as much united in ads of worship, as 
 Roman Catholics. There are one or two Protestant sects, who differ 
 in some unimportant matters, and areas repugnant to each other as aro 
 Jansenists and Jesuits in the Roman church : but all Protestant sects 
 unite in several essential acts of religious worship — in the acknowl- 
 edgment of the same code of morals, and in the positive institutions 
 of Christianity, such as the Lord's day, the Lord's supper, baptism, 
 prayer, praise, &c. Sects and differences exist which ought not : but 
 still they harmonize as much in their general and special bonds of 
 union, as do the Romanists themselves. What are the Augustinians, 
 Dominicans, Franciscans, Jansenists, Jesuits, &c. but orders (or sects) 
 called after difierent saints, and united under special bonds and peculi- 
 arities ■? These parties in the Roman church areas pugnacious as Pro- 
 testant parties : communing with each other not more frequently, nor 
 more cordially than do Lutherans, Calvinists, Arminians, &c. They 
 contend warmly against each other. Their quarrels are as rank and 
 fierce as those of Protestants. But this is not all, my friends. Their 
 societ}' is divided on all the great orthodox points of Catholicism. 
 Some say the pope of Rome is supreme in all things on earth, tempo- 
 ral and spiritual, that he is a perfect representative of all the power of 
 Christ, religious and political. A second class disavow these large 
 claims — they say he is supreme only in ecclesiastical power : but that 
 he is absolute lord of the church. A third class differ again on the ex- 
 tent of that ecclesiastical supremacy. Some say the pope is above and 
 beyond the councils and clergy ; and that he can annul them at plea- 
 sure. A fourth party say he is subject to a general council, and is on- 
 ly a general superintendent, a mere president, or executive officer — 
 that the decrees of councils are the supreme law, and that the pope 
 merely executes them. Here are four distinct sects, on the generic 
 idea of the supreme head. Again there are four parties on the essen- 
 tial doctrine of infallibility. Some say it resides in the pope alone. 
 Bellarmine says, (and he is the organ of a principal party,) " that the 
 pope cannot possibly err ^ Gelasius says, "The church represented 
 by a general council is above the pope." A third party say, that infal- 
 libility resides in both the pope and a general council united. A fourth 
 say, that all this does not constitute infallibility, but that when the 
 whole church shall have acquiesced in a decree, and signified it by a 
 concurrent response, then, and not till then, are dogmas and decrees in- 
 fallibly correct. The first of these parties believes in the church vir- 
 iual; the second in the church representative ; the third in the church 
 diffusive; — the fourth in the church responsive, — as some of their canon- 
 ists have taught. 
 
 Yesterday, in discussing infallibility, I said it should be in the head, 
 if any where. My friend the bishop, says, it should be in the body : 
 and, to carry out the figure, if infallibility be in the body, the head 
 must be under the control of the body : for the fallible must yield to 
 the infallible. Now, the body is the animal part of every individual, 
 the seat of the passions and affections ; and therefore ought to be under 
 the dominion of the intellectual and moral head : yet this theory makes 
 this body, the sensual and animal body govern. No wonder, then,
 
 ROMA!? CATHOLIC HELIGION. 179 
 
 that the Roman Catholic church is always corrupt. But from nature 
 and reason and revelation, 1 would incline to that party that places 
 the government in the head. There are the powers of government, 
 and there ought to be the sceptre. It is abhorrent to reason — nay it is 
 rather monstrous, to have the head under the dominion of the body. 
 
 But I hasten to show, that be the government where it may, in the 
 pope, the council, or the whole body, it is always fallible. I shall 
 begin with the head ; and here we have pope against pope. Adrian 
 VI. did, unequtvocalli/, disoivn Ike pope's infallibility. Now, from this 
 single fact, 1 prove the fallibility of the pope ; for Adrian was either 
 right, or he was wrong. If right, the pope is fallible; for he avows 
 that he is. If wrong, the pope is fallible ; for he was a pope and yet 
 did err. This is a dilemma never to be annihilated nor disposed of. 
 Pope Stephen VI. rescinded the decrees of pope Formosus. Pope 
 John annulled those of pope Stephen, and restored those of pope Ste- 
 phen. Sergius III. so hated Formosus and all that he did, as pope, 
 that he obliged all the priests he ordained to be re-ordained. 
 
 Sometimes popes have at one time condemned what themselves 
 passed at another time ; for instance, Martin V. confirmed the decree 
 of the council of Constance, which set a general council above the 
 pope, and yet he afterwards published a decree, forbidding all appeals 
 from the pope to a general council. He was certainly fallible, or, 
 rather, he certainly erred in one case or in the other. What then is true 
 of one pope officially, is true of all popes officially, and in proving a 
 few regular and canonical popes to be fallible, we prove them all to be 
 fallible. 
 
 Is the second opinion better — is a general council infallible ] I will 
 stale a fact or two: the council of Constance says the church in old 
 times allowed the laity to partake of both kinds — the bread and the 
 wine, in celebrating the eucliarist. The council of Trent says, the laity 
 and unofficiating priests may commune in one kind only. Here, then, 
 we have council against council. In the time of pope Celasius it was 
 pronounced to bo sacrilege to deny the cup to the laity : but now it is 
 uncanonical to allow it. The fourth council of Latoran, A. T). 1015, 
 says, with the concurrence and approbation of pope Innocent HI., that 
 the bread and wine in the act of consecration suffer a physical change. 
 Then we begin to read of transuhstantiation. Coun. Lat. iv. canon 1. 
 "Did the church always maintain this doctrine V Nay, verily, for a 
 host of fathers; nay the whole church for the first four centuries say 
 "the change is only moral,''' — a sanctification, or separation to a spe- 
 cial use. llere we might read a host of fathers, if we thought their 
 testimony necessary. The third council of Lateran, or the eleventh 
 CECumenical council, has decreed that 
 
 " JVnn tnim direnda sunt jiiramcula acd potiiis pcrjuria qua contra utilila- 
 tem tcrUsiasliram ft snnclornm patrtim vemnnt insliluta." Con. Lat. iii. rum 
 16 I^bbe. Ojunril Sarrosancl. vol. x. |). l.")!?. 
 
 Literally, they are not to be called oaths, but perjuries, which are taken 
 against the interests (f the church and (he holy fathers. 
 
 Now docs not ibis contradict Numb. xxx. 2, Lev. xix. IvJ, Dcut. xxiii. 
 23, Zech. viii. 17, Psal. xv. i, and Matthew v. "Thou shall perform 
 unto the Lord thine oaths." 
 
 Again, liie second council of Lateran, the tenth cecumonical council, 
 forbade the marriage of clergy. For 800 years the dcrf^y were allowed 
 to marry ! For the first COO yeara one-half the canons of councils
 
 160 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 ■were reo^ulatinfr the clorrry as to the affairs of matrimony and celibacy. 
 The ancient churcli had not yet learned to forbid marriage to the clergy ; 
 for with Paul the clergy yet believed, that " marriage was honorable 
 in all." 
 
 I have thus shown that the church of Rome is not uniform ; and need 
 we farther proof tliat she is mutable and fallible; — without that real unity 
 and uniformity of which she boasts T Have we not found pope against 
 pope, council against council, Uie church of one age against the church 
 of another age, and, by the acknowledgment of a pope, as much strife 
 and party as amongst Protestants. 
 
 Instead of reading that long essay yesterday, (I do not know what 
 it was about, nor who wrote it; I paid no regard to it, it being obvi- 
 ously read to fill up the time) — 1 say, that instead of such readings, I 
 expected a reply to my remarks on infallibility, or on some of the great 
 matters yet unnoticed; but without any more distinct avowal of his 
 notion of infallibility, I am left to plod my way as before. My op- 
 ponent admits his faith is not the bible alone, but that immense library 
 of one hundred and ihirty-Jive folios, already mentioned. But as he is 
 so silegt on this point, I have an author in my hand whom he has al- 
 ready commended in this city as good Koman Catholic authority ; and, 
 therefore, 1 quote him with his approbation. He has these 135 folios in 
 his eye ; and on the question, who shall interpret for public use — the Rt. 
 Rev. J. F, M. Trevern, D. D. bishop of Strasburg, late of' Aire, thus 
 speaks : 
 
 " If each of us was obliged to distinguish, among many articles, those which 
 come from tradition, and those which do not, he would find himself, in a general 
 way, condemned to a labor al)ove his strength. In fact, that part of the preach- 
 ing of the apostles which they did not commit to writing, was at first confided 
 soTelv to the memory of tlie faithful, fixed in particular churches by the oral io- 
 itructions of the first bishops, and afterwards collected partially and as occasion 
 fell out, in the writings of the fathers, and in the acts of the synods and councils. 
 Whence it follows, that to prove that such an article is truly of apostolic tradi- 
 tion, we must consult the belief of the particular churches, examine carefully the 
 acts of the councils and the voluminous writings of the fathers of the Greek 
 and Latin churches. Who does not sec that this labor requires a space of time 
 and extent of erudition, that renders it in general impracticable? There are, 
 indeed, to be found, men of extraordinary capacity and a])nlication, whose taste 
 and inclination lead them to this kind of research; with the aid of the rules of 
 criticism, all founded upon good sense, they balance and weigh authorities, they 
 distinguish between what the fathers taught, as indi\-idual teachers, and what 
 they depose as testifiers to the belief and practice of their time, and they attach 
 with discrimination the different degrees of credibility that are due, whether to 
 their doctrine or their deposition. The world is well aware that such labor 
 it calculated but for a small number: and again, after all how successful soever 
 it may be, it scarcely ever leads to incontestibte conclusions. We therefore are 
 in want of some other means that may enable us altogetlier with certainty to 
 arrive at the apostolic and divine traditions? The question is, what is this 
 means? *»»*»»«*« 
 
 Our author proceeds : 
 
 "The same judge, the same interpreter that unfolds to us the sense of the 
 divine books, manifest to us also, that of tradition. Now, this judge, this inter- 
 preter, I must tell you here again, is the teaching body of the church, the bish- 
 ops united in the same opinion, at least in a great majority. It is to them that, 
 in the person of the apostles, were made the magnificent promises: " Go teach, 
 I am with you; he that heareth you, hearcth me. The Spirit of truth shall teach 
 you all truth," tc. They alone then, have the right to teach what is revealed, 
 to declare what is the written or unwritten word: they alone also have always 
 been in possession of the exercise of it. No other ecclesiastics have ever pre- 
 tended to it, whatever have been their rank, their dignity, and learning. Ihey
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 181 
 
 may be consulted and heard; it is even proper this should be done, and it always 
 has been done; for they form the council of the bishops, and their erudition ac- 
 quired by long study, throws lio;ht upon the discussions. But as they have not 
 the plentitude of the priesthood, they are not members of the eminent body that 
 has succeeded the college of the apostles, and with it received the promises." 
 Vol. I. pp. 168, 169. 
 
 So then, to quote his words, as found on p. 108, " The opinions 
 adopted by the majority of the bishops are for all an infallible rule of 
 faith !" That is, " I believe in the holy Catholic church." 
 
 But the priesthood are sworn "to interpret the scriptures according 
 to the unanimous consent of the fathers." And if they do not, the 
 people that believe them are innocent ! ! But how can they unless 
 they examine all these fathers'? And what living man has read these 
 135 folios, with or without much care? In what a predicament is the 
 conscience and faith of this people! Here is a task, which I say, 
 never was, or can be, performed by man. The bishop can only fulfil 
 his oath by teaching what the Catholic church teaches. We have our 
 Old and New Testament without the apocrypha. They have the bible, 
 the apocrypha, and 135 folios. Let us now compare the Roman and 
 Protestant rules and interpretations ! Both rules, for the sake of argu- 
 ment, be it observed, need interpretation. But it so happens, that a 
 a Protestant bishop, and a Roman Catholic bishop, are equally fallible, 
 my opponent being judge. As the stream, then, cannot rise above the 
 fountain, both interpretations are fallible. Are we not equal? 
 
 Where do you find an infallible expositor of the bible 1 says the 
 Roman Catholic. I answer. Where do you find an infallible exposi- 
 tor of these volumes 1 You have a more difficult task, and no better 
 help, than we. The Protestants say that God can speak as intelligibly 
 as the pope, and that he is as benevolently disposed as any priesthood. 
 He does not require an infallible expositor; he is his own expositor. 
 His Spirit is the spirit of knowledge and eloquence, and can speak 
 intelligibly to every listener. As well might we say, that he who 
 made the eye carmot sec, as tli;!t he who gave man iniiul and speech can- 
 not address clearly and intelligibly that mind of which he is the author ! 
 I ask the Romanist, however, on his own principles, where is his in- 
 fallible expositor of these 135 volumes ? I request a categorical answer. 
 
 Bishop P. A general council, or ihe pope, with the acquiescence 
 of the cliurcli at large. 
 
 Mr. C. How do we approach — where shall we find this council ? 
 It has not met for two hundred and seventy-five years. How can they, 
 therefore, settle a point between the bishop and iik; 1 Every age has 
 its errors and divisions. Kvery individual has his doubts. Ought 
 there not to be a general council eternally in session 1 If, then, there 
 is none — no infallible expositor extant ; wherein is the Romanist, with 
 all his proud assumption, sui)erior to the Protestant 1 It was three 
 hundred and twenty-five years from Christ before the first general 
 council; and it is two hundred and seventy-five years since the last 
 general council of Trent; and the church has been six hundred yrars, 
 at two periods, without an infallible expositor! To show the equality 
 of the two parties, suppose a .lew were converted to (Miristianity. 
 Suppose he had heard of just two sects of (^liristians ; all the rest 
 being annihilated, but the Roman (.'alholic and the I'roteslant. He 
 has read the New Testament. Ho wishes to join the church. He 
 goes to the Roman f'atholic bishop, and says; " I see two churches, 
 
 Q
 
 182 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 sir: I don't know which to join. I read that there is but one true 
 church." What does the bishoj) respond ? " Sir, you ought to join 
 our church." The Jew asks, " Your reason, sirl for the Protestant 
 also says, I ought to join his church." The bishop shows him Jiftecn 
 marks nf (he true church. He says, " Read the Bible, and see if these 
 marks are not characteristic of us ; and (hen judge for yourself." He 
 finds these marks involve the principal part of the New Testament. 
 He reads, however, and joins the church. Has he not decided this 
 question by examining the holy scriptures 1 Has he not interpreted 
 for himself ? Is not the bishop so far a true Protestant] or, has he 
 only become Protestant for the purpose of introducing this proBelyte'? 
 There is no getting out of this difficulty. I trust my good friend will 
 not pass it with a laugh, and a bold assertion, as usual. Has he not 
 in this renounced his own principles, and turned Protestant, for the 
 sake of gaining the Jew ] 
 
 But, when the Jew has entered the church, and the bishop has told 
 him he must now believe as the church believes, for he cannot under- 
 stand the Bible : " What !" responds the Jew ; " sir, have I not deci- 
 ded the greatest question to me in the universe ? I believed in Jesus, 
 and I have found the true church by exercising my own judgment on 
 the scriptures ; and can I not now judge of minor questions 1" May 
 I not again say, that the two systems are perfectly equal ] The eter- 
 nal circle of vicious logic — you must believe the scriptures on the 
 authority of the church, then the church on the authority of the 
 scriptures : or, you must act as did the aforesaid Jew, on the advice 
 of the bishop. There is not a middle course. My learned antagonist 
 cannot show you a middle way. But I have not yet done with this great 
 theme. I wish to display in other attitudes, these two " rules of 
 faith:' 
 
 And, first, I shall sketch the Protestant rule. Its attributes are 
 seven. I. // is inspired. 2. It is auihuritative. 3. It is intelligible. 
 4. // is moral. 5. It is perpetual. 6. // is catholic. 7. II is perfect. 
 We will now prove this. 
 
 1. It is inspired: for, '■'■ Holy men rf God,'' says Peter, ^^ spoke at 
 they were moved by the Holy Spirit.'" 
 
 2. Authoritative. " The word that /speak to you, shall judge you 
 in the last day," says the Lord from heaven, 
 
 3. Intelligible, To the Ephesian converts he saith, " When you 
 read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ." 
 
 4. Moral. "The word of the Lord is pure, rejoicing the heart." 
 
 5. Perpetual. "The word of the Lord endurelh for ever; and this 
 is the word which has been announced to you as glad tidings." 
 
 6. Catholic. " He that is of God, heareth God's word." " Preach 
 the word." " Preach the gospel to every creature." 
 
 7. Perfect. " From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, 
 which are able to make thee wise to salvation." " All scripture given by 
 inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for correction, for instruc- 
 tion in righteousness, thoroui^hly fur 7u shed to every good work." 
 
 All Christendom assents to this. My opponent admits the bible to 
 be inspired. His rule makes his church a sect; for only a part be- 
 lieve in his traditions. All christians admit our rule of the bible. 
 
 \\.\s perfect. Such is the Protestant rule. Now for the Romanist 
 rule ! The bible being a part of the Roman Catholic rule, is such
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 183 
 
 only as explained by the apocrypha, the tradkions of the fathers, the 
 decrees and canons of councils, or in the hands of bishops ; so com- 
 pletely humanized, as to lose all its peculiar attributes, and is made 
 to partake of all the characters of the mediums, through which it is 
 given to that people ; and, therefore, of the whole Roman Catholic 
 rule, the attributes are just the opposite of those seven of the Pro- 
 testant's. 
 
 1. It is uninspired : consequently, being human, it can have no au- 
 thority over the conscience ; and this makes it 
 
 2. Unauthoritative. God alone is Lord of the conscience, and no 
 man can make a law to govern it. Hence a christian never can be 
 subordinate to any institution in religion, that wants the sanction of 
 divine autliority. 
 
 3. Unintelligible. No man can ever find time to examine all the 
 creed of Roman Catholics. It is constantly accumulating; and if any 
 one had time to read it all, he never could understand it. 
 
 4. Immoral. This is that attribute which I wish specially to con- 
 sider. The other properties arc all consequences of those already no- 
 ticed. But this demands a candid and faithful examination. It gives 
 me no pleasure to dwell upon this theme, to expatiate on the immoral 
 character of the papistic rule of faith. 'Tis here, indeed, we find the 
 root of the manifold corruptions of that institution ; and as I came here 
 not to flatter, but to oppose error and defend truth, it is my duty con- 
 scientiously and benevolently to expose the immoral tendencies of this 
 system. 
 
 We have heard the gentleman say, he was glad of an opportunity to 
 discuss Catholicism, to make Protestants understand better its peculiar 
 doctrines. I wish, myself, to hear his expositions, to see if he can 
 make it more acceptable. Therefore, I shall endeavor to tell my story, 
 candidly and faithfully, and give him the opportunity he desires. This 
 is my first effort against Romanism. It was not of my selection or 
 seeking, that I now appear before you : but as I am providentially, as 
 I regard it, on this arena, I shall reveal to you some of the secrets of 
 that institution, which seeks to be rooted in this Protestant soil. I 
 shall attempt this in the best spirit: for I wish to see my opponent 
 honorably wipe from his escutcheon any stain of the kind, that I may 
 allege. On these points, I shall be happy to be assured that his sys- 
 tem ill better than we Protestants can now regard ii. 
 
 I say, tlien, the Roman (-'atholic rule of faith is inunnral. This, my 
 friends, is a serious and weighty charge, and deserves to be clearly and 
 fully sustained. Before dis|)hiying my proof, I will only premise, 
 that auricular confession, penance, the mass, absolution, and other 
 parts of the system will pass before us in this allegation, sustaining 
 which, will anticipate some of our labors on the other propositions. 
 
 I shall first read from the (Jatechism of the council of Trent on the 
 power of the priesthood to forgive sin, according to their rule of faith. 
 Aurirqlar confession, is by this infallible council declared ' necessary 
 for the remission of sins." 
 
 "The Tolrc of the priful," ta)\ the council of Trent, who is I<f;iliinnte!y con- 
 •tituted ■ niuii»ler for tin- miiiN-.ion of ninii, i<i to hv hriird an that of C'hrint liini- 
 •elf, who iiiid to the Iniiir tnan, '• .Son, be of good cheer, th'j sirU nre forgiven 
 thtt." Cat. {'ounril of Tnnl, p. I!!0, 
 
 Penance by the same council is thus defined : 
 
 Form ok \'KyAti<:t..~" I'cnance it the < Imnnel throiiRh which the Mood of 
 G 10
 
 184 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Christ flou's into the soul, and washes away the stains contracted after baptisnj." 
 III. lb. " The ibrni of the absolution or pardon, granted by the priest, is this; 
 " I AliSOI.VE TUEE." Id. p. 181. 
 
 The priest says positively, *'■ I absolve thee.'''' Unlike the authority 
 of him, who anciently declared the leper clean, he claims really and 
 truly to absolve. The council declares : 
 
 " Unlike the authority given to the priests of the old law, to declare the leper 
 cleansed from his Itprosv, the power with which the priests of the new law are 
 invested, is not simply to declare that sins are forgiven, but as the ministers of 
 God really to absolvcfrom sin." Id. p. 182. 
 
 The priests, then, a» the ministers of God, really absolve from sin. 
 And more insolent still, the priest is said not only to represent Christ; 
 but to discharge the functions of Jesus Christ: 
 
 " The rites used in the administration of this sacrament, also demand the seri- 
 ous attention of the faithful. Humbled in spirit the sincere penitent casts him- 
 self down at the feet of the priest, to testify, by this his humble demeanor, that 
 he acknowledges the necessity of eradicating pride, the root of all those enor- 
 mities which he now deplores. In the minister of God, who sits in the tribunal 
 of penance as his legitimate judge, he venerates ihc.power and person of our Lord 
 Jesus C/irts/; for in the administration of this, as in that of the other sacraments, 
 the priest represents the character, and discharges the functions of Jcstis Christ." 
 Coun. Trent, p. 182. 
 
 Again Roman Catholics teach that penance remits all sin : 
 
 " I'here is no sin, however grievous, no crime, however erroneous, or howe- 
 ver frequently repeated, which penance does not remit." Id. p. 183. 
 
 This is the proper ground on which to claim the most servile obedi- 
 ence to the priests : 
 
 "If therefore, we read in the pages of inspiration, of some who earnestly im- 
 plored the mercy of God, but implored it in vain, it is because they did not repent 
 sincerely, and from their hearts. When we also meet in the sacred scriptures, 
 and in the writings of the fathers, passages which seern to say that some sins are 
 irremissible, we are to understand such passages to mean, that it is very difficult 
 to obtain the pardon of them. A disease may be said to be incurable, when the 
 patient loathes the medicine that would accomplish hiscurp; and, in some sense, 
 some sins may be said to be irremissible, when the sinner rejects the grace of 
 God, the proper medicine of salvation." Id. ib. " The penheni must submit 
 himself to thejudfrment of the priest who is the vicegerent of God." Ib. p. 183. 
 
 Therefore, all must confess once a year. 
 
 "According to the canon of the council of Lateran, which begins: Omnei, 
 utriusque sexus, it commands all the faithful to confess their sius at least once a 
 year." Id. p. 193. 
 
 But this immoral law presumes farther yet. It changes the laws of 
 God, and divides sins into venial and mortal, and fixes the price. As 
 every thing dopends upon the authority of these allegata I have hitherto 
 quoted from the catechism of the council of Trent,* I now introduce 
 one of the most popular of the saints of the modern church. This 
 saint Ligori was sainted by saint Pius VII. that best of modern popes, 
 who restored the order of the Jesuits, and the " Holy Inquisition." 
 Saint Ligori writes the moral theology of the church of Rome in some 
 eight or nine volumes : and so orthodox, that his works are owned al- 
 most by every priest. I quote from a synopsis of that system of which 
 we shall hereafter speak more particularly. We shall hereafter hear 
 the saint in his definitions of sins. 
 
 " This is a mortal sin," says Ligori, " which, on account of its enormity, de- 
 stroys the grace and friendship of God, and deserves eternal punishment. It is 
 called mortal, because it destroys the principle of spiritual life, which is habitual 
 grace, and kills the soul. 
 
 * Bee Catechism, council of Trent, as revised by John Hughes of Philadelphia, priest of 
 St. John's church, pp. 192, 193.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC HELIGION. 185 
 
 Venial sin is that which, on account of its levity, does not destroy the grace 
 and friendship of God although it diminishes the lervor of charity, and deserves 
 a temporal punishment. It is called venial, because the principle- of the spiritual 
 life, grace, being- still sound, it allV-cts the soul with languor, that is easily cured, 
 the pardon of w-liii-li is easily obtained." Ligor. lib. v. n. 51. [Synopsis, p. 20. 
 
 The Roman Catholic rule of faith erects a tribunal of confession un- 
 known in scripture, and commands all to come to it at least once a 
 year. It moreover institutes a new office called confessor, unknown 
 in the New Testament, and gives to him the office of a father, a phy- 
 sician, a teacher, and a judge. 
 
 " The ollicfs that a good confessor is bound to exercise," " are four: namely, 
 those of Father, Physician, Teacher, and Judge." Ligor. Theol. T. viii. p. 7. 
 
 The confessor forgives all sins on confession, even the sin against 
 
 the Holy Spirit: 
 
 "There is no sin, however grievous, no crime however enormous, or howerer 
 frequently repeated, which penance does not remit." Cat. Conn. Trent, p. 183. 
 
 Penance here means the "Tribunal of confession:" for this tri- 
 bunal is sometimes called simply " co?)/css?"o7i," " The sacrament of 
 confession :" at other times it is called the " tribunal of penance." 
 Sometimes simply " Penance," and he who confesses is called " the 
 penitent." But satisfactions and penances are to be apportioned ac- 
 cording to the discretion of the priest. 
 
 ".-Vriording to the council of Titiit, (Sess. xiv. c. 8.) the satisfactions" (by 
 which tliey mean penancea,)" ought to be in proportion to the crime, since those 
 confessors to/io enjoinUglU penances fur grievous sins, participate of those sins; 
 nevertheless the contessor, for just reasons, can diminish the penances, provided 
 the penitent is affected with violent compunction, or if it be during the time of 
 a jubilee, or a plenary indulgence, and especially, if he labor under any infirmi- 
 ty of body or mind. And lastly, (to be brief,) always wlienever a prudent fear 
 is entertained, lest the penitent would not perforin penance due to his sins. 
 Such is the common doctrine taught by the doctors, with St. Thomas." Ligor. 
 Prax. Con. N. ii. 
 
 But still worse: this immoral law or rule of faith repeals and annuls 
 certain positive divine laws. I have here two catechisms, published 
 by the authority of the church. They have both expunged wholly the 
 second commandment ; so that it should not stand in the way of pay- 
 ing reverence to images. [Time expired.] 
 
 I!,ilfj)UHl 10 n'rhKh, A. M. 
 Bisiior Pi;nf;Ki.[, rises — 
 
 If my friend, Mr. Campbeli,, has failed to establish against the 
 Catholic church, a single one of those propositions, which have been 
 80 conspicuously before the public for the last two or three months, 
 and if I have established two or three of them against his own vague 
 theory, it is not for want of splendid abilities on his part, or the pos- 
 session of thein on mine. The reason of bis failure, is the inherent 
 weaknns.s of the cause be advocates, as the true .secret of my success, 
 is to bo found in the impe nolrable, diamond strength and beauty of the 
 institution, which, in an evil hour for \\\h paitt glory as a controversial- 
 ist, he volunteered to attack. He has this d;iy (and again F (bank him) 
 brought up, for discussion, tin; most important snbjprt that can occupy 
 or engross the aitt titinn of this enligbtcned audicnci', vix. the rule of 
 ftith. If fairly pul)lislM(l, as I have every niason to believe this con- 
 troversy will be, it will send forth sound and useful information, 
 through the whole length and breadth of ibe land, upofi a topic of the 
 most vital interest; and I will, most joyfully, meet Mr. C. on that 
 <2 2 24
 
 186 DEBATE 0>J THE 
 
 question, for I hail with exultation such an opportunity of dispelling 
 prejudice and misunderstanding with regard to our real principles. / 
 ff;7/ gifc categorical ansivcrs to all the qiicstiuns he has propounded ; 
 and, therefore, do I take up the subject he has been pleased to touch. 
 1. He says, the methods of electing the pope are various. But let 
 that pass : the method is nothing. It is with his authority we are con- 
 cerned. He has wasted much time in building up a house of sand, to 
 show how easily he could demolish it, by sliowing that the pope is 
 not infallible; whereas, I have repeatedly told him, that the Catholic 
 church has never taught that the pope's infallibility was an article of 
 faith. He spoke of some more or less important but unessential points of 
 difference of opinion between Dominicans and Jesuits. But he should 
 have shown, to establish the proposition before this house, that these or- 
 ders disagree with regard to articles of faith. Their minor differences are 
 nothing, so long as they implicitly believe every article of faith revealed 
 by almighty God and proposed for their belief by the church, which they 
 all hear, and which they regard as the '* pillar and ground of the 
 truth." Tiiis is the solid and immovable foundation of their union. 
 The case of t!ie cup given to, or withheld from, the laity, as I have 
 already told him, is one merely of discij)line. It may now be given, 
 or not, as the pope may see cause. In the time of Gelasius, it was 
 pronounced sacrilege to deny the cup to the laity ; and, if all my 
 hearers had read church history, I need not tell them, it was because 
 of the leaven of Manicheism still working in pretended communi- 
 cants, who forbade the use of wine as coming from the evil principle. No 
 father of the church, however, said, that the consecration of the eucharis- 
 tic species, is a mere ' separation,' or the change only a ' moral change.' 
 I defy him to the proof. Mr. C. says : " So far Protestants and Cath- 
 olics are equal ;" for, that they have also a grand generic principle, 
 viz : that the Bible is their rule of faith, and the Bible alone. Now, 
 I take up the organ of a numerous body of christians, the Christian 
 Palladium, and I meet him here with a strong argument in my favor, 
 upon this principle. Speaking of Mr. Campbell, (I mean by this no per- 
 sonality, that can be thought invidiorrs : I intend none) the editor ob- 
 serves : " He frequently speaks of ' the Bible alone ,-' but this is not a 
 term'used generally by the brethren in New England, and is taught 
 by few except Mr. C We never knew our brethren to boast of walk- 
 ing by the Bible alone. This w^ regard as an error, let who will 
 PROCLAIM IT. We say, give us the Bible, but not alone. Let us have 
 A God, a Christ, a Spirit, and a ministry accompanying it. There 
 was a law given to the Jews, and also a testimony, which they were 
 bound to observe. The testimony of the inspired prophets did not con- 
 tradict the law, but taught and enforced the same truths. The ancients 
 were to walk by the law and the testimony, which was called a word. 
 (Is. viii. 20.) What this " redoubtable captain" oi reform says, of 
 sailing sometimes under this flag and sometimes under that, is per- 
 fectly applicable to — " but I will not read further: this is sufficient 
 for my argument. The Bible alone is not the rule of faith to all Pro- 
 testants. Quakers, Mormons, &c., think not so, as I have already 
 proved. And, now, Mr. Campbell can do infinitely more with the in- 
 tellects of his hearers, than the pope has ever done with those of Cath- 
 olics, if he can persuade them that the differences between Protestants, 
 who all take the Bible for their rule of faith, are unimportant. Is the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 187 
 
 divinity of Christ an important or an unimportant article ? One class 
 of Bible-reading Protestants admit the doctrine; another reject it with 
 horror: pretty unity this! The Episcopalians believe in the necessity 
 of submission to the bishops; and eloquently have I heard the author- 
 ity of the church advocated by them. They do not say that the church 
 is infallible, and in tliis they are inconsistent. But will they allow that 
 the dilTerence between them and Presbyterians is unimportant 1 Is the 
 doctrine of a hell, with endless torments there for the wicked, unim- 
 portant] One class of Bible-readers hold this also, and another class 
 reject it! Alas! for the declaration of my friend, that he can prove 
 whatever he states to be a fact. I strongly suspect a man who makes 
 such asseverations. 
 
 He is loud in his panegyrics on the unity of Protestants in essential 
 acts of worship: they pray together, &c. If this were even so, of 
 what avail is it, when they differ in essential doctrines. But, is not my 
 friend aware, that this is by no nueans a fact? And what reliance can 
 we place on his statements of what occurred centuries ago, when here, 
 at home, and refutation nigh at hand, he makes such curious assertions 1 
 
 Did not a case occur, last summer, within sixty miles of Cincinnati, 
 at Dayton, when the Episcopalian minister, the Rev. Mr. Allen, for- 
 bade the Rev. Mr. Peahody, a Unitarian clergyman, of irreproachable 
 morals and great amiableness of disposition, to preach in his church ? 
 Did not the bishop reprimand llie vestry, and Episcopalian minister, 
 for having previously allowed him to preach there] I think the 
 Episcopalian bishop acted, in this respect, as he should have done. I 
 blame none of the parties concerned, but I slate an incontrovertible 
 fact. Again, at Pottsvillc, Pennsylvania, another case occurred. A 
 Unitarian minister died there, and the Episcopal clergyman refused to 
 say prayers at his funeral, because of his religious belief. What, 
 then, becomes of my friend's vague and general assertion, about unity 
 among Protestants in essential acts- of worship ] Will lie, then, ex- 
 communicate the Unitarian] and, if he once begin, how many more 
 sects must be put out of the pale ] 
 
 Let him shew me that a Jesuit or a Doipinican, a Franciscan, or a 
 Benedictine, or an Augustinian ever refused to let a member of either 
 of these orders preach in his cinircli, or to say prayers over a corpse 
 because of the diffi-rcnco of orders] Such a thing has never been lu-ard 
 of; 80 that wo have unity, and Protestants have none, neither in doc- 
 trine, nor in worship; neither in essentials nor in non-essentials, them- 
 selves being judges. 
 
 If my hearers wish for a practical and convincing proof of Catholic 
 uniformity of faith, they have only to enquirt? of the emigrants from 
 the various countries of Europe, who have (led from the oppression of 
 their rulers at home, to find free and haj)py homes amongst us here, 
 and I promise them that however awkward their appearance, hdwever 
 broken their language, or uncouth liieir ai)i)arui, tliey will all answer 
 the same on doctrinal points. America, Asia, Europe, Africa, New 
 Holland, our faith is every where the same, like our God and our 
 church. Who can make void the prayer of ('hrist for unity ] Who 
 can disturb the church's union] Ah well iniirlit he prct.'iid to make 
 the harmony of hi aven to sleep. Is tliis union exem|)lifRid among 
 Protestants] The very contrary is true. And why] Because the 
 apple of discord is flung among thern. The seeds of disorganization and
 
 188 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 death were thickly sown in Protestantism from the birth. Sects multiply 
 without end — their name is Leirion. My friend was quite witty, about 
 the 135 ponderous folios which, according to him, a Catholic must 
 read to understand the doctrines of his church. But does he not per- 
 ceive that a Protestant is infinitely worse off ^ For he must read lan- 
 guages in which the fathers of the church have not written — Hebrew, 
 Syriac, Arabic; as well as those in whicli the fathers did write, Greek, 
 Latin, &c. before he can form a prudent judgment that he has acquired 
 the elementary knowledge necessary to understand his rule of faith. 
 He must read folios of commentators and learned dissertations on 
 controverted texts. He must decide for himself what books of scrip- 
 ture are genuine and what apocryplial, or spurious. For this purpose 
 he must explore the archives of the ancient, churches, all the dusty 
 tomes and ponderous folios of the ecclesiastical writers, to ascertain 
 what books were regarded in their times as canonical, and what as un- 
 canonical. And when he has, if ever, accomplished this herculean 
 task, he will be no better off than when he began, for he can never re- 
 ly on the testimony of those fathers, whom he considers just as liable 
 to have been mistaken as himself! Thus he can never be sure that he 
 possesses objective truth, or the revealed will of God : he can never 
 be sure that he possesses subjective truth, that is, that he has a perfect 
 knowledge of what that will is. Thus he can never be sure that his 
 rule of faith is inspired, authoritative, perfect. / call on my learned 
 friend to prove the contrary of this argument, if he can. And if he can- 
 not, I have clearly established the contrary of his proposition, viz : 
 that Protestants are not uniform in their faith, neither can they be. Now 
 mark the difference on the Catholic side of the argument. We go for 
 the Bible and tradition — the whole word of God, written and unwrit- 
 ten. We take the Bible and the church; the Bible and the testimony. 
 This renders for us assurance doubly sure. We believe that Christ 
 established a church on earth which he made the guardian of the divine 
 deposite. From that church, that divinely appointed guardian we receive 
 the heavenly gift. She vouches for its accuracy, and on her testimony 
 w^e receive the Bible, as an inspired, authoritative, perpetual, Catholic, 
 perfect, and, explained by her, intelligible volume. But as we know 
 on the authority of St. John xviii. 21, 25, that the world itself could not, 
 as he thought, contain all that Christ spoke, and he always spoke 
 to instruct or edify — as we know that Peter " ivith many other words'^ 
 not recorded in the Acts of the Apostles, convinced the Jews that 
 Jesus was the Messiah — as we know moreover that St. Paul com- 
 manded the Thessalonians, 2d. Ep., 2d. ch., 11. v. to hold the /ra- 
 <fi7?o;is wiiich they had learned, WieZ/ur by the word, or his epistle; 
 and ordered Timothy to hold the form of sound words which he had 
 heard from him, in faith; we therefore place the word of God, so con- 
 veyed to us, by the side of Scripture, and in this, as 1 have just shewn, 
 the Scripture itself is our guide. Our traditions do not, like those of 
 the Pharisees whom Christ reproached, make the Scripture void. We 
 believe nothing contrary to the Bible — nothing that the Bible does not 
 clearly approve. The same God that revealed the Bible, established 
 the church. They do not contradict, tliey mutually sustain each other. 
 I did not say that the pope is inspired, that the council is inspired, or 
 that the church is inspired; but I do say that the church, whether as- 
 sembled in a general council, or diffused throughout the world, is as
 
 BOMAN CATHOLIC nELIOlON. 189 
 
 certainly assisted by the Holy Ghost to teach all truth, as the evan- 
 gelists and other writers of the Holy Scriptures were inspired by the 
 same divine Spirit to write the special truths which they were commis- 
 sioned to reveal to pariicular churches, and on particular occasions. A 
 Catholic is under no necessity of knowing every thing that has been 
 ever said or done by the doctors and fathers of the church, before he 
 can understand what are the articles of his faith. He knows that, in 
 regard to doctrine they unanimously agree in receiving the Apostles' 
 creed. Hence he is sure that, " I believe in God, the Father Almighty, 
 Creator of Heaven and Earth" is an article of faith which none of these 
 fathers contradict, and he has the same absolute certainty with regard 
 to all the remaining articles, viz: 1 believe in Jesus Christ, in the 
 Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the 
 forgiveness of sins. So far for the doctrine; besides which articles 
 he is in the habitual state of mind to believe implicitly whatever God 
 has revealed and proposed by his church. Then for the natural and 
 moral law he has an equally comprehensive epitome, viz : the Ten 
 commandments of God ; with respect to which he knows that there 
 has never been the slightest difference of opinion. 
 
 Neither the pope, nor a general council, nor the whole church has 
 now, or ever had, the power to change, or suppress an article of the 
 creed, or a precept of the decalogue. Is there any thing vague in 
 this? any thing indistinct? any thing unscriptural or antiscriptural '? 
 My friend docs not hear, or correctly state what I say. I did not 
 say that the body ruled the head. It would be a contradiction in terms ; 
 because the body supposes a head and a heart, which every body 
 ought to have. There must be no schism in the body. He has made 
 some very elo((uei\t observations on the impossibility of determining 
 where the infallibility resides, whether in the head or in the body or 
 both &c. in the pope, or in a general council, and argues that we may 
 therefore as well have none at all. Now, let me illustrate this point. 
 Has not my fritiid a mind and one too hiohly endowed by nature ? 
 Well, does hr; kiimv where it resides? Is it in his licad ; or in his 
 heart, or in his stomach ? (a laugh) Does he know where to put his 
 hand upon it? 'I'here are various theories iipon this subject among 
 scientific mrn. Hut who denies that he has a mind ? I repeat, who 
 denies the exislenre of mind? Does it aH'crl this belief to say that 
 we cannot tell wlu-thcr it is here or there — in the body or around it ? So 
 it is with the heavenly mind that guides the clnirrh. Even if we did 
 not know its exact place of residence, we could easily judge of its 
 influence and guidance by its effects. But we do know where it evin- 
 ces its presence, as I have morr: than once cxplaiiu'd to the gentleman. 
 What has Adrian's opinion todo with tin; (luistioii ? It was but his 
 personal, private opinion, and no article of faith. \N lictlicr this opi- 
 nion was right, or wrong, all I said stands good. 'I'lm witty conceit 
 of my friend was a sophistry suggested by the pagan oracles, who 
 coulrl respond in such ambiguous terms, that it might be interpreted 
 in favor of the oracle's foreknowledge according to the event; for 
 instance a king going out to battle would be told, " Vou will destroy a 
 great city;" but whether it was his own, nrhis enemies', depended on 
 the issue. 'I'he idea is borrowed from I'agan craft. 
 
 [I am now admonished to dilate a little longer on the; decision of 
 the council of (Constance with regard to the ' Cup.' I have frequently,
 
 190 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 in my intercourse with persons not Catholic, heard this difTiculty pro- 
 posed ; and I am glad of the opportunity, once for all, of explaining 
 It. Why does the Roman Catholic church withhold the cup from 
 the laity 1 In the early ages, the holy eucharist was communicated to 
 the faithful under either species; often under hoth. When the eucha- 
 rist was carried, as it was the practice of primitive christians to carry 
 it with them in all their sojournings, by sea and land, as wine was ex- 
 posed to sour in tropical climes, they consequently carried, on their 
 travels, only the species of Bread. Did they believe that the virtue 
 of the eucharist was thus destroyed 1 No. They knew with St. Paul 
 that Jesus Christ, rising from the dead, dieth no more. Death shall 
 no longer have dominion over him. They knew therefore that his 
 flesh was living flesh, not dead and bloodless ; and that, consequent- 
 ly, in the eucharist, under either species the flesh and blood are in- 
 separably united. 
 
 What was the reason of the abolition of the practice 1 When the 
 deacons distributed the consecrated elements to the faithful, there 
 were many infirm, decrepit, and palsied communicants, from whose 
 trembling hands, or lips, it was feared, as it had frequently occurred, 
 the cup might fall, and thus might the holy elements l3e trodden under 
 foot and profaned. A contrary usage was therefore instituted, and it 
 has since prevailed. The dislike, indeed disgust, which many persons 
 feel for wine, the unwillingness to drink from a chalice which had 
 passed from mouth to mouth, &c. &c. are causes which, in all pro- 
 bability, prevent a change in the present disciplinary regulation, but 
 the church could to morrow reestablish the abolished practice of giv- 
 ing the cup to the laity, if she please. She did so, since the Pro- 
 testant reformation, in favor of the Bohemians. 
 
 The subject of oaths and perjuries was quoted. Any man in his 
 sober senses must discern that my friend has mistaken the meaning 
 of the pope. Examine the circumstances. He supposes the truth 
 that the church neither can nor does require any thing contrary to 
 justice and judgment, and truth, which, in all her standards, and in all 
 her catechisms, she teaches as the essential conditions, for every law- 
 ful oath. Again, she every where teaches, with St. Paul, that an oath, 
 contrary to conscience, is a sin. 
 
 The pope knew that the church could not — that God himself, who 
 founded her as the pillar and ground of the truth, could not be pleas- 
 ed with sin, or served by a lie. Let me illustrate this matter and 
 set it at rest for ever. An infidel, swears that he will write against 
 the utility of the bible, deny its authenticity, undermine its evidences, 
 cast it into the flames. Is his oath an act of religion ] Is it not rather 
 a perjury 1 Again — a man swears to take away the life of another 
 man, justly or unjustly, he boots not. Is not his oatl\ a perjury, 
 rather than an oath, since it is manifestly against the utility of socie- 
 ty and, consequently, against the order of God 1 It is remarkable that 
 the pope speaks too of an oath against the teaching of the fathers, 
 " con/ra instituta patrum," than whose sermons against all grievous 
 crimes, and in an especial manner, against perjury, nothing can be 
 conceived more denunciatory, niore truly terrific. Is it fair — is it lo- 
 gical, to draw from the premises a conclusion so vituperative T 
 
 To force a shadow of uniformity, the thirty-nine articles wore drawn 
 up by the church of England, and the clergy of that church, by a cruel 
 tyranny over conscience, compelled to swear to them. Many eminent
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION'. l»i 
 
 divines of that church have taught that the articles nre not to be 
 sworn to with unqualified assent, but that the mental reservation, as 
 I understand them, is allowed : while the sovereign lord, or lordess, 
 of church and state, and many no less eminent divines, have insisted 
 that the articles must be sworn to with the most entire and unqualifi- 
 ed submission. Is this, in my friend's estimation, the reverence due 
 to the solemnity of an oath ] or is it not taking the holy name in 
 vaini Catholic priests in this country take no oath. I took none. 
 The first oath I took was one of allegiance to the United States, ab- 
 juring all foreign potentates, &c., as the oath is couched. This oath 
 I took in the hands of Judges John and Thomas Buchanan, in Fred- 
 erick, Maryland. I also took an oath, several years afterwards, when 
 consecrated a bishop, to testify my belief in a faithful adherence to 
 the doctrines of my church. This was a further confirmation of the 
 oath which I had previously taken. This is no immorality. 
 
 We are again referred to a change in the ^doctrine'' of the church. 
 "The second council of the Lateran," so says Mr. C. ^^ forbade the 
 marriage of ike clergy, whereas nothing was more common in the first 
 eight centuries than for priests to marry. ^'' Now, in the first place, 
 celibacy is no part of Catholic doctrine, at all. It is not an article 
 of faith. The pope could, to-morrow, change that law, and allow 
 the Roman Catholic clergy, as the Greek priests do, to marry. It is 
 one of the bright features of our ministry, that the time and means, 
 which the care, and support of a family would engross, are devoted by 
 a priest to the advantage, spiritual and temporal, of his flock. Marriage 
 is a good, wise, and noble institution. " Increase and multiply," is the 
 command of God. But we hold that it is more perfect, or as St. Paul 
 says, " IT IS GOOD " for the " Priests of the Lamb " to abstain. God, 
 for whose sake they make the sacrifice, will sustain them'through temp- 
 tation. Keep thyself chaste, says St. Paul to Timothy, 1st Ep. ch. 
 V. 21. Again, St. John says: "And I heard a voice from heaven, as 
 the voice of harpers harping on their harps, and they sung as it were 
 a new canticle, before the throne, and before the four living creatures 
 and the ancients ; and no man could say the canticle, but those hun- 
 dred and forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth. 
 These are they who were not defiled with women : for they are vir- 
 gins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were 
 purchased from among men, the first-fruits to (Jod and to the Lamb : 
 and in their mouth there was fumd no lie; for they arc without spot 
 before the throne of (Jod." What docs all this mean? Is it not evi- 
 dently the highest eulogy that could be pronounced on the state to 
 which their holy functions, as priests of the spotless Victim of 
 our altars, daily summon the clergy of our church ? I glory in this 
 feature of our discipline. Death before dishonor to a virginal priest- 
 hood ! 
 
 In the second place it is a wide mistake, to say that nothing was 
 more common, for the first six hundred years, than for priests to mar- 
 ry. The general council of Nice enforced, by a special enactment, 
 the celibacy of the clergy. This was the first general council of the 
 Catholic church ; and the practice, it enforced, was no innovation. 
 The councils of Neo (/'acsarea and Ancyra had, several years previ- 
 ously, made laws to this cflTect for priests and deacons. How was 
 the circumstance introduced into the council of Nicel Several bish- 
 ops, priests and deacons, had been married before their onliuation. It
 
 192 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 was proposed to compel those who had not voluntarily returned to 
 singleness of life, to separate from their wives. Paphnuicus, an un- 
 married bishop, in consequence of the abuse the Manichaeans, who 
 considered marriage as coming from tlie evil principle, dissuaded the 
 council from this course, and so the bishops agreed, for all past mar- 
 riages. So generally, however, was the celibacy of the Greek clergy 
 then established, that even Protestant historians — Mosheim, 1st vol. 
 p. 65, — complain of the melancholy, morose and unsocial institution, 
 in the second century.. "The sensual man," says St. Paul, " per- 
 ceiveth not the things that are of the Spirit of God, for it is foolishness 
 to him.'''' 1st Cor. ii. 14. But of the many curious things which my 
 friend has said, most unwittingly, in my favor, in the course of this 
 debate, the most curious of all is that he should have, himself, in- 
 formed us, that for the first six hundred years, one half the canons 
 were occupied with the regulation of the clergy as to this affair of 
 celibacy ! ! And why, if the clergy were allowed to marry ? Is not 
 this, independently of the acts of these councils, which have reached 
 us, irresistible proof of the care taken to obtain an unmarried, a pure 
 clergy 1 This is not immorality. 
 
 Confession is not an immoral doctrine. It is a holy institution. 
 This I shall prove in due course of time. I agree with the venerable 
 bishop Trevern, the learned author of the "Amicable Discussion," and 
 of the "Answer to Faber's Difficulties of Romanism." Let my friend 
 but study these pages with sincerity, and he, too, will become a Catho- 
 lic. How different the doctrine of the Catholic bishop of Strasburgh, 
 and of the Protestant bishop Onderdonk, of Philadelphia, The for- 
 mer shews clearly how the most humble Catholic can have a divine 
 assurance for the truth of his religion ; the latter, as I have myself 
 heard him declare, in St.Paul's church, Philadelphia, in the year 1832, 
 (and his pastoral charge has been since published, and it will prove 
 what I here say,) teaches that not even the most learned Protestant 
 can ever be positively sure that either himself or his church is right ! 
 And yet, St. Paul says, without faith it is imposnibk to please God. By 
 faith, he of course means true faith — and yet the Protestant bishop says 
 we never can be sure that we have that faith ! What becomes now of 
 the Protestant infallibility, for which my friend so strenuously argued 
 to-day ■? The bishop's conclusion, on Protestant grounds, is more rea- 
 sonable than Mr. C.'s. As long as two pious and able men, of different 
 denominations, after all their efforts at truth, come to different and op- 
 posite conclusions upon essential matters, how can either say "I am 
 right," and " my neighbor is wrong]" What, I am asked, is the course 
 I would pursue with one who is not yet a christian, but anxious to be 
 instructed in the evidences of Christianity? Why, the course I would 
 pursue is this: / would address his reason alone, as long as lie has no 
 better guide — convince him that the bible is, at least, authentic his- 
 tory — and that he can rely upon the truth of the facts recorded in it, 
 as he would on human testimony. I would introduce him to Jesus 
 Christ, whose character is there portrayed, whose miracles are there 
 recorded. I would tell him why he came on earth ; how he founded a 
 church to explain whatever was difficult in the bible, after having col- 
 lected all its books together, what no man could do for himself; how 
 he established that church as the pillar and ground of the truth, and 
 said of its pastors, "He that hearelh you, heareth me;" and when I
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION'. 193 
 
 had convinced him of the authority of the church, I would not require 
 of him to abjure reason, but I would consig'n him to a higher and safer 
 guide, that church, herself the immaculate bride of Christ. 
 
 Now my friend's allusion to the Jew, brings a story to my mind, 
 and I cannot answer his queries better tlian by relating it. A Protes- 
 tant and a Catholic clergyman walking together, met a Jewish Rabbi, 
 " Well, Solomon," says the Protestant minister, "here we three are 
 met, and all of different religions, which of us is right!" "I'll tell 
 thee," says the Israelite, " If the Messiah has not come, I am right; 
 if he has come, the Catholic is right; but whether he has come or not, 
 you zie wrong." (A laugh.) — [Time expires.] 
 
 Half past 11 o'clock, A. M. 
 Ma. Campblll rises — 
 
 I shall respond to such matters as have a bearing on the question, as 
 soon as I have finished my exposition of the immoral tendency of the 
 Romish rule of faith. 
 
 That common cursing or damning, which offends out ears in all 
 the lanes and streets and highways, is authorized in the following 
 words : 
 
 " To curse insensible creatures, such as the wind, the rain, the years, the days, , 
 fire, i:c., is no blasphemy, unless the one wlio curses, expressly connects them 
 in relation to Go<J, by savinp, for instance, cursed be thejireof God, the bread 
 of God," kc. Lrgor. Prax. Conf. N. 30. 
 
 Again : the Roman Catholic rule of faith sanctions a violation of the 
 third commandment. 
 
 " To curse the living is a mortal sin, when it is 
 
 formal; that is, (as Caittan explains itj) when he who curses intends and wishei 
 a erievous evil to befall the one he curses: but it is no mortal sin to curse tb« 
 living, when the curse pronounced is merely material; that is, when it is pro- 
 nounced without any evil intention. And why is it not a mortal sin? — because 
 he who curses a living man does not always intei\d to curse the soul, or to de- 
 spise its substance, in which, in an especial manner, the image of God shines 
 forth, but he curses the man without considering, or rrliecting about his soul, 
 and therefore, In cursing hlin he does not commit a grievous sin." Id. ib. 29. 
 
 License is given to violate, in some way or other, every precept of 
 the Decalogue. The Sabbath as a divine institution is thus set aside: 
 
 ■ "As to the obligation of hearing 
 
 the HoLir Thi.ng," /'whirh i» the popith epithet for attending mass.) " let the 
 penitcol bf questioned in regard to whether he has omitted that Iloi.v THING?" 
 (to attend mass.) " As to servile works, let him be a?ked how long he hag 
 worked? and what kind of work he did / for, according to the doctors generally, 
 those who work two hours are excused from grievous sin; nay, other doctori 
 allow more, •Kpcciiilly if the labor be light, or if there be some more notable 
 reason. Let him also be asked, why he labored; whether it was the custom of 
 the place, or whether it was from necessity? liecause poverty ran excuse from 
 sin in working on the Sabbath; as the poor are generally exrusjrd, who, if they 
 do n'>t labor on the Sabbath, cannot sijp|)ort Itieniselves or their families; as they 
 also are excused who sew upon the Sabbath, because they cannot do it on other 
 days." Id. ib. i\. 32, 33. ( SynoptiH, pp. 52. 53. 
 
 " Mcrrhandisinjf, and the selling of goods at auction on the Sundays, is, on ac- 
 count of its beiriR the (general custom, altogether lawful." "Buying and selling 
 poods on llw. Lord's <l«y and on lestival days, are certainly forbidden by the cnnon- 
 ical law — but where the contrary custom prevails, it is excusable." Id. il). N. 293. 
 [Synopsis, p. 192. 
 
 — — ■ . . " He who performi any servile 
 
 work on the Lorrl's day, or on « Crstival day, bf him do penance three days on 
 bread and water. If any one brocik the fasts pmcribed by the church, let him 
 do penance on bread and water twenty days." — [.Synoptis, p. 115. , 
 
 R 25
 
 194 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 " The pope has the rie^ht and the power lo dtcrec, thai the sanclijlcation of the 
 Lord's day, shall only continue a few hours, and thai servile works may be 
 done oil that DAY." Id. ib. [S)iio[)si^, p. 188. 
 
 Custom, indeed, is fast becominfr, as St. Ligori teaches, an excuse 
 for any thing. The traditions of fathers, the canons of councils, the 
 decrees of popes — all wear away by the attrition of custom. Hence, in 
 a Roman Catholic population, pure and unmixed, there is a degree of 
 grossness of immorality, that Komanisls themselves could not endure 
 m Protestant countries. Even the morals of New Orleans could not 
 be endured in Cincinnati. There, it is custom to go to mass in the 
 morning, to muster at noon, and to go to the theatre in the evening on 
 the Lord's day. This is indeed, the custom, or something very like 
 it, in all Roman Catholic countries. 
 
 On stealing, in general the casuist directs as follows : 
 
 ■ " In respect to the s-eveiith coninianclmeiit," says the saint, 
 
 " let the confessor ask the penitent if he has stolen any thing? and from whom, 
 whether it was from one person, or from difl'erent persons? whether he was alone, 
 or ivith others, and whether it was once or oftener? Because, if at each time 
 he stole a considerable amount, at each time lie sinned mortally. But on the 
 contrary, if at each time he stole a small amount, then he did not sin grievously, 
 unless the articles stolen came to a considerable amount; provided, however, that 
 in the beginning, he had not the intention of stealing to a large amount; bu* 
 when the amount already stolen has become considerable, although he did not 
 gin errievously, j'et he is bound under a grievous sin, to restitution; at least, as to 
 the last portions that he stole by which the amount became considerable. It is 
 to be observed, however, that a larger sum is required to constitute a heavy 
 amount in small thefts, and more is required if the things are stolen from differ- 
 ent persons, than if they were stolen from the same person; hence, it is said, that 
 in small thefts, which are made at dift'erent times, double the sum is required to 
 constitute what is to be considered a large amount. And if a considerable time 
 intervene between the thefts, for instance, two months, then the theft probably 
 does not amount to a grievous sin." Id. ib. N. 42. 
 
 On stealing to pay masses : 
 
 " If the person is unknown," continues the 
 
 saint, " from whom another has stolen, the penitent is obliged to restitution, 
 «ither by having masses said, or by bestowing alms on the poor, or by making 
 presents for pious places," by which the saint iiieans churches, nunneries, &c.; 
 "and if the person himself is poor, he can retain the amount stolen for the use 
 of his family. Hut if the person on whom the theft has been committed, is 
 known, to him the restitution is to be made; wherefore, it is wonderful, indeed, 
 that there are to be found so many confessors so ignorant, that, although they 
 know who the creditor is, enjoin upon the penitent, that, of the stolen goods, 
 which they ought to restore, they bestow alms, or have masses said. It is to be 
 observed, that if any one takes tne property of another, or retains it, under the 
 presumption, that if he were to ask it of the owner, he would willingly give it to 
 him, he ought not to be obliged to make restitution." Id. ib. JV. 4-4. 
 
 Thus we see theft can be made available to the behoof 6f priests in 
 saying masses — what they ought to say, and by the old canons, are 
 bound to say f^ratis. 
 
 On lying. There is a way of making lying no lying : 
 
 " Relatively to the ninth commandment, of popery the 
 
 eighth, the saint proceeds as follows: — " In regard to the reparation of the char- 
 acter of a person, if the fault of which he has been accused, is false, he who 
 defames him is bound to retract. But if the fault is true, the defamation that is 
 given ought to be looked upon in the most favorable light that it can be without 
 tying-: let the penitent sa)-, for example, [b}' way of excuse,] " I was deceived, 
 I erred." Others also admit that he can equivocate, by saying, /Zierf, since erery 
 sin is a lie, as the scripture says. Again, by an equivocation, he may say ' I only 
 maile this up in my head,' since all words which proceed from t ■ mind maybe 
 said to come from the head ; since the head is taken for the mind.'' Id. ib. N. 46. 
 [Synopsis, p. 56.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC HELIOION. 195 
 
 The difference between insulting or dishonoring one's parents and 
 a spiritual father, bishop or pastor : 
 
 " He who curses his parents, let him do penance, on bread and water, forty 
 days. He who insults his parents, three years. If any one rebel against his 
 bishop, pastor, and father, Itt him do penance in a monastery, during his whole 
 life." — [Synopsis, p. 116. 
 
 Rules given to confessors : 
 
 "The saint continues: "The confessor 
 
 ou^ht to be extremely cautions how he hears the confession of women, and h« 
 should particularly bear in mind what is said in the holy congregation of bishops, 
 21, Jan. 1610. " Conjessors sliould nol, zviihout necessity, hear the confessions 
 of women after dusk, or before tuilight." In regard to the prudence of a con- 
 fessor, he ought, in general, rather to be rigid with 3'oung women in the confes- 
 sional than bland; neither ought he to allow them to come to him before confes- 
 sion to converse with him; much less should he allow them to kiss his hands. It 
 is also imprudent for the confessor to let liis eyes wander after his female peni- 
 tents, and to gaze upon them as they are retiring from confession. The confes- 
 sor should never receive presents fron\ his female penitents; and he should be 
 particularly careful not to visit them at their houses, except in case of severe ill- 
 ness; nor should he visit them then, unless he be sent for. In this case he should 
 be very cautious in what manner he hears their confessions; therefore the door 
 should be left open, and he should sit in a place where he can be seen by others, 
 and he should ne\er fix his eyes upon the face of his penitient; especially if they 
 be spiritual persons, in regard to whom, the danger of attraction is greater. The 
 venerable father Sertorius Capotus says, that the devil, in order to unite spiritu- 
 al persons together, always makes use of the pretext of virtue, that, being mu- 
 tually affected by these virtues, the passion may pass from their virtues over to 
 their persons. Hence, says St. Augustin, according to St. Thomas, confessors, 
 in hearing the confessions of spiritual women, ought to be brief and rigid ; neither 
 are they the lets to be guarded against on account of their being' holy; for the 
 more holy they are, the more they attract.'* And he adds, "that such persons 
 are not aware that the devil does not, at first, lance his poisoned arrows, but 
 those only which touch but lightly and thereby increase the ali'ection. Hence it 
 happens, that such persons do not conduct themselves as thov did at first, like 
 angels, but as if they were clothed with llesh. But, on the contrary, they mutu- 
 ally eye one another, and their minds are captivated with the soft and tender ex- 
 pressions which pass between them, and which still seem to them to proceed from 
 the first fervors of their devotion: hence they soon begin to long for each other's 
 company; and thus, he concludes, ' the spiritual devotion is converted into car- 
 nal. And, indeed, O, how many priests, who before were innocent, have, on ac- 
 ccont of these attractions, which began in the spirit, lost both CJod and their 
 soul!' •• Id. ib. N. 119. 
 
 The saint proceeds: "Moreover, the confessor ought not to be so fond of 
 hearing the confessions of women, as to be induced thereby to refuse to hear the 
 confessions of men. O, how wretched it is to sec so many confessors, who sjiend 
 the greater part of the day in hearing the confessions of certain religious wom- 
 tn, who arc called liizocaM," (a kintlof secular nuns,) " and when they after- 
 wards sec men or married women coming to confession to them, overwhtlmed 
 in the carev and troubles of life, and who can hardly spnre time to have their 
 homes, or business, how wretched it is to see these confessors dismiss them, say- 
 ing, ' / have tomethinf^ else to attend to: po to some other confessor" hence it 
 happens, that, not finding any other confessor to whon\ to confess, they live du- 
 ring months and years without the sacrnments, and without God!" Itl. ib. ]\. 
 120, [Synopsis, p. 7ft. 
 
 The Roinanist rtile of faith both in word and dred places the Virgin 
 Mary above Christ, in the religious homage of the chuich. 
 
 " Nuns," s!ivs till' naiiit, " ought to 
 
 have a special devotion towards St. Joseph, towards tluir gmirdiuii iingtl, and 
 their tutelary saint, and prinripnllv towards Si. Michm 1, the univerxnl patron of 
 all the faithful, but above all towards the mont hol^' N'irgin M»ry, who is called by 
 the church our life and our hopt ; for it is morally impossililc for a soul to ndvauce 
 much in perfection, without a particular niid a certain tender devotion towards 
 the most holy mother of God. ' Id. ib. N. 171. 
 
 ^^»i
 
 190 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 " Oitr life and our hope!" These words are in Protestant faith and 
 Bible propriety due to the Lord alone. — We cannot have two /ir^s; and 
 two hopes; and if Mary is our ]\i\'. and liopo, the Lord Jesus is not. 
 I befoie alluded to this person under the Roman name of a being call- 
 ed " the mother of God ;" which my opj)onent, as his manner is, served 
 up rhetorically, as if to produce a sympathy in favor of the superstitious 
 veneration of his party. He had not, however, a Roman Catholic 
 audience. I meant no disrespect to any person. I know that the more 
 intelligent Romanists discard the phrase as too gross and unauthorized. 
 There is no being in the universe, say they, who ought to be called 
 the mother of God. 1 had in my eye at the moment some wretched de- 
 signs in some Roman churches, a scandal to any christian people: a 
 sort of family group, in which there is the picture of a venerable old 
 man, said to represent the Faiher of the universe — next an old woman, 
 Ihe image of the Virgin Mary, and between them the picture of the 
 " A0/3/ child, Jesus." It has disgusted the more intelligent Romanists. 
 This family of divinities is much more in the style of the Pantheon, or 
 the poetry of Hesiod, than in the spirit, cr letter, or taste of Christianity. 
 
 While on this subject wc shall hear the moral theology of the church 
 on the use of images ; and, first, of the use of the virgin Mary's image : 
 
 " Lt.t him, who is in the habit of blaspheriiiiij;-, be advised to make the sign of 
 the cross [+] ten or fifteen tin)es a day, upon the ground with his tongue: and 
 thrice evtry morning, to say to the most blessed Virgin: ' O, my Lordess! give 
 me patience.' " Id. ib. N. 16. Synopsis, pp. 41, 45. 
 
 " Daily to visit the most holy sacrament, and t!ie image of the most holy Mary, 
 to beg of them the grace of perseverance." Id. ib. N. 14. 
 
 " my Lordess, give me patience!" Is not this idolatry ? To beg 
 of the {mage of the virgin the grace of perseverance ! ! ! No wonder 
 that these folks find it expedient to expunge the second commandment, 
 which says, "Thou shalt not worship an image" — no, "Thou shall 
 not bow down to it." But we shall hear the directions given concern- 
 ing the divine mother : 
 
 " The saint nowproceeds to give instruction to the pa- 
 rish priest how to lead his flock in the way of " salvation." " Let him be watch- 
 ful," says he, " to render his flock studious iii their devotion towards the Virgin 
 Mary, by declaring to thein how merciful this DIVINE MOTHER is in succor- 
 ing those who are devout to her." Id. c. x. IV. 216. "Therefore," continue.s 
 the saint, " let him intimate to them, that they daily recite, in common with their 
 faniilies, five decades of the Rosary; that they fast upon Saturday, and celebrate 
 Novenas upon the festivals of our Lordess (nostrae Domina?.) Lastly, and above 
 all, let the parish priest intimate to his flock, that they become accustomed often 
 to commend themselves to God, begging of him holy perseverance through the 
 merits of Jesus Christ and of Mary." Id. ib. 
 
 ■ ■ » ■ "A certain image of the 
 
 Redeemer," so says the saint, " once upon a certain occasion, spoke to the ven- 
 erable brother Bernard of Corlion, who begged of the image to let him know 
 whether it wished him to learn to read? and the crucifix answered, ' What will 
 it avail thee to learn to read? What are books to thee? I am thy book, — this is 
 enough for thee." Id. ib. N. 220. 
 
 " iNow, that this is the very kind of reading that papists, or at least, those who 
 wish to be saints, are addicted to, let us turn to the great Bernard, and hear 
 what he says on the subject of such books. This saint, speaking of the Ronush 
 churches, exclaim.s, " There is so great, and such an astoidshing variety of dif- 
 ferent figures (images) presented on all sides, to the view, that the people prefer 
 reading upon the marble stones, than reading in books, and to spend the whole 
 day in wondering at these things, rather tlian in meditating upon the Law of 
 God." Bernard, Apol. p. 992. The same saint say?, "The bishops e.xcite the 
 devotion of n carnal minded people by corjioral ornaments, because they cannot 
 do it by spiritual." Id. ib. The saint does not mean tliat then- devotion is ex-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 197 
 
 cited bj such shows, for just before, be saiJ, that these carnal minded people 
 " preferred spending- the whole day in wondering at these things, rather than 
 to be meditating on the law of God." He could have meant nothing else there- 
 fore, than that these splendid images were placed in the churches under the 
 PRETEN'CE of exciting dovotion, while the real object was, that the " foolish 
 people," (as he calls them,) " might bestow A GIFT." Id. ib. " O Crux ave, 
 spes unica!" '• Hail, O Cross, our only hope!" as exclaims the Romish church 
 in her " Breviarv." 
 
 , " Besides the little images of 
 
 Christ crucified, and of the Blessed Virgin," continues the saint, "which the 
 priest ought to be careful to place near the sick person, if it can be done, let 
 Dim also place before his eyes large images of the Mother of God, and the Re- 
 deemer, that the sick man, turn which way he will, may see them and commend 
 himself to them." Id. ib. JNT. 235. 
 
 So much for this lesson on the morality of the Romanist rule of 
 faith. On these matters we have not time to comment. For those 
 who think they need a comment, my worthy friend knows how to 
 manage the cause admirably ! His talents suit this exigency. He is 
 fluent in all the dogmas of Catholicism. To these he has devoted 
 many years and is a good judge of a certain class of human nature. 
 He knows the power of a laugh — an anecdote — a sigh — a compliment 
 — a picture — and, above all, he knows how much it weighs, with one 
 class, to say, with a triumphant air, "There's logic for you !" "what 
 an argument is that !" " I have proved it now !" " this is sound logic !" 
 "my friend Mr. C. feels it — it is the badness of his cause — my cause 
 is so good, so ancient, so venerable, so holy, so catholic!" &c. &c. I 
 say, in this sort of rhetoric, my learned opponent is an adept. It has 
 only one fault, it is too luscious sometimes, and he lays it on rather 
 thick, to stick long upon the audience. He is performing his part 
 nobly ! For myself, I regard all this as a grave, serious, scriptural and 
 rational discussion; I expect the good feelings of my audience, of 
 which I am already conscious, only by addressing myself to their un- 
 derstanding, and in the cool argumentative dignity of reason, fact, and 
 argument. But really, no man, in my knowledge, could sustain the 
 Romanist cause better than my learned and ingenious respondent; and 
 if he fails, Roman Catholicism in the West need not look for an abler 
 defendant. 
 
 My friend has admitted the seven methods of electing popes, but 
 says it is no matter how they are chosen. Americans! How would you 
 relish such doctrine in respect to your governors, judges, and presi- 
 dents 1 If some city or county in this state should elect a governor 
 for the whole state, would it make no diflTerence to you 1 Should your 
 chief magistrate be elected by a moh, by a parly, or by fierce, or brib- 
 er)', would you say it matters not — the virtue is in the oflice, no mailer 
 how the iiiciiiiibenl has come into itT ! 
 
 The " Palladium" and " Baptist Banner" prove as much against 
 Protestantism, and for Catholicism, as they deal in ribaldry and per- 
 sonal abuse. If iIk se are arguments on wliicli the iiisliop relics, they 
 may be good autiioriiy for him; but, for myself, I need no such logic, 
 and my cause disdains such auxiliaries. He has great use for Unita- 
 rians also, and sometimes for Universalists, and even Quakers; but 
 in his last argument lie has mistaken the point. 'I'hese all ajipeal, in 
 their controversies, to the bible alone, just as the Janscnists and .Jesu- 
 its, the Dominicans, L'lrnardiles, Benedirtines, Fraiici.scans, &:c. &c. 
 while they have disliked and opposed one another, all acknowledge the 
 pope as supreme head of the church, the judge of controversies.
 
 198 DBBATE ON THE 
 
 I am glad that he has at last admitted that the Jansenists in all essen- 
 tials are Catholics, and that they are repudiated only for a difference 
 of opinion. But where now are his objections against Du Pin 1 He 
 objected to him that he v.as a Jansenist, as if a difference in opinion 
 destroys the credibility of a witness — a principle that forever roots up 
 all history; for no one upon this principle is authentic, unless he be a 
 Roman Catholic ; nor then, unless a Jesuit, and this is equivalent to 
 saying, that no one is authentic unless he bear witness for him. — [Time 
 expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 Bishop Furcelt, rises — 
 
 I shall begin where my friend left off. I am charged with appeal- 
 ing to the feeling, and not to the reason of my hearers : " my rhetoric 
 is too luscious ; I lay it on too thick ; it won't stick," &c. &c. Well ! 
 if my rhetoric is too luscious, that of my friend is too insipid ; if 
 mine is too thick, his is too thin. The fallacy it would cover, grins 
 through the flimsy gossamer : the weakest eyes can see it beneath 
 the veil. But I trust, I need not offer any vindication of my argu- 
 ments to this assembly. They are able, and, I thank God, willing, 
 too, to judge for themselves. They see that all, or the main force of 
 my friend consists of two renegade priests. Smith and Du Pin. 
 These are the two pillars of his logic. The published volume will 
 shew how superior and how honest are mine. In the oral debate, I ad- 
 dress the judgment, without neglecting the heart: and if I did pre- 
 sent my argument chiefly to the former, it would be because of an 
 observation of the celebrated John Randolph, in the Virginia conven- 
 tion for altering the constitution of the state. Speaking of my learn- 
 ed opponent, who was a delegate to that convention. Randolph said, 
 " He had politics in his heart and religion in his head." I cannot 
 vouch for the authenticity of the anecdote, I have just heard it. I hope 
 it was not founded in fact — [Mr. C. explained — Mr. Randolph had 
 never said so to him.] I proceed to more important matters. I did 
 not pretend to day that an informal election had any force. But that 
 any form on Avhich the entire church agreed, according to the majority 
 principle governing our own elections, was valid. It was Christ who 
 drafted the constitution of our church. I do not much like to see any 
 comparison instituted between it and the works of human legislators. 
 But if closely examined, it will be found to contain the excellencies, 
 while it excludes the defects of the most popular forms of civil go- 
 vernment. We have a perfect feature of the Republican Model, in 
 this, that with us, merit is the grand criterion of fitness for office. No 
 favoritism is allowed. No matter how humble the parentage or ob- 
 scure the kindred of the individual, virtue, talent and common sense 
 are sure, sooner, or later, to elevate him to any situation he may be 
 advised to accept. The church often selects her chief officers, as 
 God did David, " from the flocks of sheep," Ps. 7. viii. 70. from the 
 humblest walks of life. It is to this system, of giving merit a /ViiV 
 field, that we are indebted for the brightest ornaments in civil so- 
 ciety, a Curran, chosen for his intelligent blue eye, his wit and 
 archness, from among his playmates, when '■'■they that won, laughed, 
 and they that lost cheated ,-" as is very often the case. 
 
 To finish the conversion of the Jew, when I discontinued my ar- 
 gument, at half past eleven, on different principles. He knew there
 
 RO>tA>" CATHOLIC RELIGION. 199 
 
 was a synagogue which the people were bound to consult, by the ex- 
 press command of God, and that it was no servility, it was blasphemy 
 against God and often visited with the heaviest penalties, even in this 
 life, to oppose its authority, or to contradict its teaching. He is 
 therefore prepared to hear of authority in religion — in fact, the syna- 
 gogue was a type of the church, its introduction — as the church is 
 the fulfilment and the consummation of the teaching and testimony 
 of the LAW. The Jew having had reason to question the truth of his 
 religion, for which, he remembers he had often read, a better was to 
 be substituted, and aware that the time marked so distinctly by the 
 prophets for the coming of the Messiah, has long ago past, he looks 
 for any religious society, that can illustrate the splendid prophecies of 
 Isaiah, respecting the catholicity, or universal diffusion and the dura- 
 tion of the church, from the time of the crucified one. He has only 
 to open his eyes to see that the Catholic church extends the dominion 
 of Christ, the limits of his spiritual kingdom from sea, to sea. Then 
 he looks at the other denominations. He finds none of the qualities of 
 such a kingdom, in them. They are not Catholic, they are not old, 
 they are not uniform. They are the contrary of all this. This is enough 
 for him. He uses his reason, thus far, alone, because he is not yet 
 baptized. Like the wise men, he follows the light of that star, until 
 he reaches Jerusalem — when its light fails him, there, as the star did 
 them, he asks, as they did, of authority, where the truth may be found, 
 and reason and revelation concur to shew it to him in the church. 
 He consigns himself to its guidance, he becomes a Catholic — and 
 reason tells him, every day, he has done right. He lives and he dies 
 without a doubt of the soundness of his decision, for this blessed 
 security is the distinctive character of the Catholic. All other creeds 
 based on the essential maxim of their fallibility, leaves the human 
 mind, in life and death, a prey to the most torturing anxiety. But I 
 have not done with this very instructive incident in the discussion. 
 If the Jew witnesses an occasional scandal in the church, he calls to 
 mind how Adam fell in Kden, and Aaron fell, at the foot of the smok- 
 ing Sinai, and Heli and his Sons, the priests, fell in Silo, and that 
 CnriRt said not, reject a religion, whose ministers have, personally, 
 transgressed, but on the contrary, that he said : " Upon the chair nf 
 Monea have sittrn the Scribes and the Pharisees, .ill things therefore, 
 w/iatsnerer the;/ shall say to ynu, observe ye and do ye : hut according to 
 their works, do yr not, for they say and do not. Thus truth in not 
 abandonc'i ; if th«' bad liver meets his meritrd doom. 
 
 I now come to all tiiat farrago of the /ienegadr Smithes translation 
 of Liguori. My friend says the (Jathoiie rule is immoral. He ap- 
 proached this topic with so m\ich reluctance, and with so many strug- 
 gles, that, conscious of his having nothing true to produce against 
 ('alholir morality, 1 was going to say to liini, "spkak oi.r." Hut I didn't, 
 and now he has said all. Well, what does it amount to ? Why to 
 this, that the Catholic church is blackened, but beautiful (Nigra num, 
 Bed formosa, as the spouse saj's in llu* canticle). She is, though 
 misrppr<s.iitfd, f^ir, though slandered, pure. If a Catholic were 
 always what liis rhurch teaolies, and the sacraments site is appointed 
 by Christ to minister, give him grace, to be, he would be an orna- 
 ment to human nature, as well as to his faith. Hut " the Catholic 
 rule is immoral and dispenses with the law of (iod." No; it enfor- 
 ces dreadful penalties here and eternal torments hereafter, for a viola-
 
 200 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tion of the law. If her ministers make any mitigation of her strict 
 code of morals in consequenco of the arduous duties, weak health, 
 or other circumstances of Iht children, she loaches them, that if the 
 alleged motives of such mitigation do not, indeed, exist, it is not 
 " a faithful dispensation, but a cruel dissipation" of the heavenly or- 
 dinances; that the priest has no power but what he derives from God, 
 and that God will infallibly inllicl all the rigors of his vengeance for 
 its abuse, as well on tlio priest, as on the people. If all the priests 
 and bishops in the world were to pronounce the words of absolution 
 over a sinner, in whose heart God did not see true sorrow for his fault, 
 with a sincere resolution to sin no more, the absolution would be null 
 and void, and the horrid crime of sacrilege superadded to the previous 
 guilt of the transgressor. The hope of the hypocrite shall perish, 
 says the scripture. We have a maxim, which must make the pope 
 and bishops and priests, as well as the laity tremble, when we 
 approach the dread tribunal of penance. Itjs this: "a good confes- 
 sion is the key of Heaven, a bad one is the key of Hell." How ad- 
 mirable are the lessons read today from Liguori — and they were faith- 
 fully rendered for a sinister motive — and how well does the Catholic 
 church describe the perils and the obligations of their sacred office to 
 her ministers ! Hence it is that we assume our religious robes and hear 
 confessions in the open church, where are also our confessionals, 
 under the eyes of all. If Liguori were the immoral man that Smith 
 would make him, would he have given such lessons to the clergy 
 and pointed out so impressively the dangerous consequences of a single 
 indiscretion, or the slightest familiarity on the occasions to which he 
 was adverting ? " I made a covenant with my eyes, says Job, xxxi. 1, 
 that I would not so much as think of a virgin ; for what part should 
 God from above have in me, and what inheritance the Almighty from 
 on high ]" Liguori says : " He that does any servile work on the 
 Lord's day, let him do penance, three days, on bread and water." To 
 what does my friend object in this, on the score of immorality ] Is 
 it the enforcing of the observance of the sabbath 1 Surely that is not 
 immoral. Is it to the severity of the penalty ■? But did not God ordain 
 the pain of death against the man who gathered a few sticks on the 
 sabbath ] Liguori allows work on the sabbath, on certain occasions. — 
 So do we. — Doctors work on the sabbath, without sin. So do printers, 
 though I think not always, especially when they publish pious lies 
 against the Catholics. "Which of you, says Christ, whose ox, or his 
 ass, falls into a pit, will not quickly draw him out, on the sabbath. 
 If a house is on fire on the sabbath, will not the Presbyterian bell 
 ring and the citizens haul out the hoso and engines ? Will we not 
 save the harvest, on a Sunday T New Orleans' profanity on the sab- 
 bath ! Why, they are not all Catholics, many of them are infidels and 
 Protestants, who there break the sabbath — and their sin, though bad 
 enough, is not so bad as theirs, who, as it has been done elsewhere, 
 meet in gangs for forgeries and other such frauds, on the sabbath. 
 " Custom is fast becoming an excuse for every thing." — JVo where does 
 Liguori say this. I call for the original. Let Mr. C. produce his 
 proof, if he can. If he cannot, what will this community think of him ? 
 " The Romanist rule of faith places the Virgin Mary above Christ." 
 It does no such a thing. It says " cursed be every Goddess worship- 
 er," while it renders '■'■honor to whom honor.'''' We know and pro- 
 fess that the mother has no power but what she derives from the Son.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 201 
 
 »» 
 
 To Him, we say : " have mercy on us ;" to her " pray for us." Mr 
 C. says, " No being in the universe should be called mother of God' 
 Was not Christ God 1 And does not the gospel call Mary, his mo- 
 ther ? Did not one hundred and fifty eight bishops so call her, in the 
 year 431, in the council of Ephesusi Who rs the intelligent CathO' 
 iic, as mv opponent states, who is ashamed of what the gospel and 
 the church sanction ? I ask who is he 1 Let us have his name. 
 The streets of Ephesus rung with loud applause when the decision of 
 the council was announced, vindicating the name and dignity of the 
 mother of God, and the words Mack eurixjc were echoed from mouth to 
 mouth, mingled with the most'joyful and exulting cries of the populace, 
 to the consternation of Neslorianism. 'Son! behold thy mother!' were a- 
 mong the last words spoken by the expiring Savior on the cross. Will my 
 opponent call them ill timed at that hour, when all was consummated ! 
 
 " The Catholic rule makes a distinction between mortal and venial 
 sms." And why should it not 1 Does not the bible, which propor- 
 tions the penalty to the offence, does not the civil law, which punish- 
 es not every offence alike, does not common sense point out the dis- 
 tinction? Is it as great a sin for a child to tell a little, ^vhite lie to 
 excuse itself, as for a son to whet the razor and cut his father's throat 1 
 I am sensible that a lie is never innocent. Nor do I excuse it under 
 any circumstances — but it is of various shades of guilt, according to 
 the circumstances when it is uttered. I know of national legislatures 
 which give a bribe of forty pounds per annum to an apostate priest, to 
 tempt him by filthy lucre to act against his conscience — ana which 
 not so many years ago, encouraged a son to turn Protestant, by em- 
 powering him to take his father^ estate and turn both his aged pa- 
 rents and with them his brot^iers and sisters, if they persisted in be- 
 ing Catholics, out of doors, and it would be easy for me to prove that 
 this law was passed by many Protestant ministers, and that it wcu nol 
 over scrupulous in point cf morality in papistical distinction between 
 moral and venial sins ; but let hs have more of Smith's translation of 
 Liguori, he says ' let stolen money be paid for masses 1 No ; he say* 
 first, let the rightful owner he hunted out by the penitent thief, and 
 to him let the restitution be made. If he can be no longer found, let 
 the money be given for masses, for his spiritual benefit, or distributed, 
 for his sake, in alms to the poor, and what belter use could be madfl 
 of it — what better counsel given 1 
 
 Anothrr proof of t'atholic immorality in that we are bound to go 
 oner a year to confession ! Where the immorality of this is, I cannot 
 conceive. le it not good to be obliged to examine, at least, once a 
 year, if not more frequently, the state of our consciences and to con- 
 fess ourselvps sinnnrs 1 Is not this an admirable institution for the 
 acquiring of the best kind of knowledge, th<" knowledge of oneselfl 
 Is it not wortliy of (iod ? Is it not God himself that instituted itT 
 Did he not leave to liis church, the power of binding and loosing from 
 sin, when he said to his apostles, after having niysteriously breathed 
 upon th'-m and given thetn the M<dy (Jhosl, " Whose sins y<>u shall 
 forgive, they an; forgiven, and whose sins you sliali retain, thi-y are 
 retained : Whatever you shall bind on earth, it shall he hf)un(l in 
 Heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth, it shall br; loos^td in 
 Heaven." .John xx. '■2-Z, 2.'{. And my friend quoted St. Thomas 
 Aquin, and St. Augustin, as well as Liguori, for the holy rules the 
 pnest must observe, in hearing confesflions. Tiiat establishes the im-
 
 202 DEBATE O^ THH 
 
 portant fact, that in the last century, and in the fourteenth, and as fat 
 back as the fifth age, the practice of confession existed, as it does at 
 the present day. In every age from the time of Christ it has been 
 practised, and experience has proved it the most effectual restraint 
 that religion has ever imposed upon vice, on passion, and on human 
 frailty. Who can tell what crimes it has arrested 1 What virtue it has 
 preserved and purified 1 What restitutions, of reputation and of for- 
 tune it has caused to be made T How many sinners it has stopt in the 
 down-hill path to destmction t Voltaire and Chilling^vorth and a hun- 
 dred others, not Catholics, have pronounced the most splendid eulo- 
 gies on confession. These disinterested witnesses will furnish you 
 ample proof on this point. But my friend before he closed, uttered 
 one word, while he read from the catechism of the council of Trent 
 "^xt'ng a price, ^c." for the forgiveness of sin. Now in the name of 
 truth, in the name of this community, I ask him for the proof, for I 
 pronounce it absolutely false. 
 
 Mr. C. explained that he did not say it was done by the council of 
 Trent. 
 
 He says that we have exalted the confessional to an equality with 
 the throne of grace. Well might it be the footstool of that throne^ 
 if its pure principles were carried out. On the throne, or in the con- 
 fessional, it is the same God that pardons the penitent sinner. — [Time 
 expired.] 
 
 Three o'clock P. M. 
 
 Mr. Campbell rises — 
 
 The gentleman challenged me this morning upon an important 
 point, viz. that Protestants cannot make an act of faith — that is, be 
 
 rerfectly certain in their beliefofthe holy scriptures, or of Jesus Christ, 
 accept the challenge. It now only remains for him to appoint the 
 time when, and the place where, and I will meet him on that point. 
 But that is not the question for to-day. Let him not think to take me 
 off, by raising incidental and foreign questions. They may remove 
 the ennui of the audience for a while ; but his time would have been 
 better spent in answering my allegations on the great question. 1 
 have heard not one answer, as yet, to the question, " What gives gen- 
 eral councils their infallibility V and various other points of great 
 moment to his cause : to which he had better attend, than to propose 
 new debates. I will remind him of another question which he had 
 better solve. ' Hmo can a thousand fallibks make one infallible?'' Do 
 they, by meeting together, become infallible'? or, by an ecclesiastic 
 combination, give out infallibility? 'IMiis would have been more in- 
 structive than much of what the gentleman has given us. He obser- 
 ved at one time that the Jansenists were a Roman Catholic sect. But 
 again, he says, that they are not Roman Catholics at all ! To pre- 
 serve the union of the church, their plan is a very easy one. When 
 persons dissent, cut them off. While Jansenists agree with the 
 majority of the church, call them good Catholics : when they dissent, 
 as they do in some very cardinal matters, call them heretics in the 
 bosom of the church : but not of it. But the gentleman's explana- 
 tion of the council of Trent will never satisfy Protestants. The coun- 
 cil of Trent at one session, had forty-eight bishops, forty-five of 
 whom were very ordinary men. They decided that the Apocrypha 
 and the Vulgate were authentic; that the Latin Vulgate is the true and
 
 B03IAN CATHOUC &EUOION. 203 
 
 only authentic copy, more authentic than the Greek original. TTiese 
 matters had often been discussed before amongst Romanists ; but were 
 finally adjudicated by the council of Trent. The modern doctrine of 
 Catholics is, that a simple majority is infallible. "That the opm- 
 ions adopted by the majority of the bishops are for an infallible rule 
 of faith.'''' So says the worthy bishop of Strasburg; but the proof is 
 another matter. Now the present doctrine is, that twenty-five bish- 
 ops, being the majority of forty-eight, are infallible. The opinion of a 
 majority of a council, then, is the essence of infallibility. Father 
 Paul, who writes the history of the council of Trent, a good Catholic, 
 truly ! says, ' beardless youths were sent to that council by the pope 
 to obtain majorities for his measures — That the pope sen^ packed ju- 
 ries, who in every question were expected to support his measures.' 
 So provoked was the good Catholic with the aberrations of Trent, that 
 he solemnly asserts that the bishops o^ Trent were "a pack of incar- 
 nate demons." I think I quote his yery words. He was complaining 
 that the pope had hired and sent oft' young men from every part of 
 the empire to vote as he pleased to dictate. So much for the infalli- 
 bility of oecumenical councils. 
 
 My friend has pronounced glowing encomiums upon the pure vir- 
 ginity of the Roman priesthood, and has extolled the purity of celib- 
 acy, as essential to perfect holiness. That these priests have not been 
 such immaculate purities, half the decrees of these very councils attest. 
 Half their legislation is i<bout the specks and blemishes of this vir- 
 gin priesthood, as if they assembled for the purpose of hiding their 
 shame. The bishop quoted Rev. xiv. 4. and was not ashamed before 
 this audience to apply it to marriage. I blushed for our audience, 
 and could not but be shocked with the freedom of attack upon the or- 
 dinance of God. Marriage is the oldest and most venerable institu- 
 tion in the history of man. God himself instituted and celebrated it, 
 on the flowery banks of Eden in the state of primeval innocence and 
 bliss. It was then and there said ; " It is not i^oadfor man to be alone.^^ 
 I believe with Paul that marriage is honorable in all. And as for pu- 
 rity ; earth knows no purer, no holier state than that of holy wedlock. 
 And could I tfll — or dare 1 tell before this assembly, but lialf that I 
 have learned of that virgin slate of wliich my friend h;is spoken with 
 such warmth ; he would be slow to learn who could not perceive, 
 that "forbidding to marry," one of Paul's attributes of tlie grand 
 apostacy, has been the fcma el principium, the fountain of untold pol- 
 lutions in the hierarchy of Rome. In times nf persecution, and of 
 great distress, it may, indeed, he prudent, as Paul advised on such oc- 
 casions, to refrain from marriage, and for some great and laudable 
 purpose, it may be convenient, to prefer a single state ; but that youth, 
 male or female, who for the sake of greater purity prefers celibacy, 
 has yet to learn tho very first principles of both religion and morality; 
 and \n as far out of the tract of truth and reason, as he that would cut 
 off his own hands to prevent him from plunder. 
 
 It irt essential, in my opinion, that the bisltop be a married man. 
 Indeed, the Holy Spirit hy Paul has decreed, that he should he the 
 husband of one wife. As my opponent is a barhelor, I ought, per- 
 haps to a«k liis pardon. Did he, indeed, possess all tlio other quai- 
 
 I lonir 
 
 ifications, I should withhold my vote to his becoming a bishop so 
 as he continued a "nV^in." To preside over a christian coiig 
 tion, ho should have all a christian's feelings and experience.
 
 204 
 
 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 should know experimentally the domestic affections and relations. 
 He should study human nature in the bosom of his family. There is 
 a class of feelings, which no gentleman, of single life, can compre- 
 hend ; or in which he can sympathise : and these are essential to that 
 intimacy with all classes, sexes and duties, which his relations to the 
 church often impose on him. If he docs not know how to rule a sin- 
 gle family, and to enter into all its customs and feelings with practi- 
 cal skill, how can he take care of the church of God ? So argues 
 Paul : and so must I reason and judge. 
 
 Next to his remarks against marriage, as necessarily less pure than 
 celibacy; I was sorry to hear the gentleman defending " white lies," 
 and " little sins." When I think of the nature of sin, and the holy 
 and immutable laws of God, against whom it is committed, I see no 
 difference between one sin and another. There may be great and lit- 
 tle sins as to their temporal relations and consequences : but when HE 
 against whom every sin is committed, and that divine and holy law, 
 which is violated in the least offence, is considered ; we must say with 
 the apostle James, " He that offendoth in one point is guilty of all." 
 It may be the veriest peccadillo on earth : l)ut in Heaven's account, 
 one sin would ruin a world, as it has done, for he that keeps the whole 
 law and yet offends in the least point, is guilty of all. He that said, 
 not a jot or tittle of his law shall fall to the ground — He that magni- 
 fied his law and made it honorable, will Suffer no person to add to— 
 to substract from, to change or to violate a single point with impunity. 
 
 I wish the gentleman would come up to the point and defend his 
 Catholic rule, that I might fully deliver myself on this subject; but 1 
 have as yet given a very few instances of the impurities and immoral- 
 ities of Itiis rule of faith. But from the specimen given, I would ask, 
 does it not teach the worship of creatures and the images of creatures- 
 does it not countenance idolatry 1 Does it not command the invo- 
 cation of the spirits of dead men and women 1 Are not multi- 
 tudes of saints invoked, of whose abode in heaven there is no witness 
 on earth 1 Does it not pay religious homage to beings, who by nature 
 are not God 1 Does it not blaspheme the name of God, and his apos- 
 tles and prophets, who ate in heaven? And, may I not add- — does it 
 not annul the laws of God, and by a system of unparalleled casuistry 
 set aside every moral obligation ■? ' 
 
 The gentleman represented confession as a christian duty. So it is ; 
 but not auricular confession ; not confession to a priest. Leo I. opened the 
 flood-gates of impurity by ordering and substituting private confession 
 to a priest; for public confession before the whole congregation. The 
 last entrenchment against the rapid declensions of public morals in the 
 fifth centpry, was broken down by their dispensing with public for 
 secret confession. All sensible historians, or, rather, commentators 
 on historic facts, agree that there was no greater check to flagitious 
 offences than bringing the defaulter before the whole congregation ; and 
 this being commuted into auricular confession, inundated the church 
 with unparalleled impurities and immoralities. " Confess your faults 
 one to another," is not, whisper your faults into the ears of your priest ! 
 Why do not the priests, on this their proof, confess their faults to the 
 people ? — confess to one another! But this authorizes no man, no woman, 
 to degrade themselves by falling upon their knees before an old or young 
 bachelor, and telling to him ali their impure and sinful thoughts, words
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 205 
 
 and actions. And ought he then to say, as if the sin were committed 
 against him, " I absolve thee V This is the climax of folly on the 
 part of the penitent, and of impiety on the part of the priest ! 
 
 There is no ear but God's to which our errors and our faults ought 
 to be confessed. The secrets of all hearts are his ; and he has gra- 
 ciously assured us that he will hear the acknowledgment and peniten- 
 tial confessions of all who approach him through the one Mediator. Is 
 there more condescension or mercy in a Roman priest than in God ? 
 No, my friends, there is no ear more ready to hear than his ; and he 
 only can forgive. To suppose the contrary, mistakes wholly the chris- 
 tian institution, and argues consummate ignorance of God. It is wholly 
 incompatible with the genius of the religion, and repugnant to both the 
 law and gospel. And with what propriety, modesty, piety, males and 
 females, old and young, should mutter iheir sins and secrets into the 
 ears of any bachelor, priest, or confessor, as if his ears were a common 
 sewer — or conduit to carry down to oblivion the impurities of mortals, 
 I cannot even conjecture, unless to give them power over the penitents. 
 I opine that I am yet in the pale of logic, though I am upon a very un- 
 pleasant theme. 
 
 The gentleman objects to some of my reasonings. He says that the 
 church has fixed no tariff of sins ! Does he wish me to tell the whole 
 story 1 Is not the principle clearly asserted in the penances already 
 read 1 Why fix a penance of three days for violating the sabbath, and 
 twenty days for breaking a human fasi ? For insulting his parents ho 
 must do penance for three years; for rebelling against his bishop he 
 must do penance all his life ! He who kills a common man does 
 penance three years ; but he who kills a priest must do penance 
 twelve years ! 
 
 The gentleman says there is no possibility of efToctual pardon from 
 a priest, unless contrition be sincere. A word frora Ligori here : 
 
 " In order to receive the facrament of penance rii^htly, perlect contrition in 
 the penitent is not required, but it is sufTicient if lie liuve attrition." — Id. ib. N. 
 440. The saint proves tliis in liis exposition of the 4th chapter of the 14th ses- 
 sion of the coumil of Trent: — Id. ib. [.Synopsis, p. 105. 
 
 Will the gentleman explain what he means by attrition? I have, 
 perhaps, said enough on this topic to prepare the way for my speech 
 to-morrow morning on the "sea serpent!" Hut whiit-; on the whole 
 premises of the rule of faith, and the mutability, (aljibility, and tariffs 
 of the Romanist sect, 1 beg to read, in the words of the most illustrious 
 of the champions of Protestantism — 'I'he great Chillingworth : 
 
 " Know then, sir, that wlien I say the religion of FrotesUnils is in prudence to 
 be preferred before yours; as on the one side 1 do not understand hy joiir 
 reli{;ion the doctrine of Jiellarmine or liaronius, or any otiier private man 
 amonp^sl you, nor the doctrine ot Ihe Sorbonne or o( the Jcsitils, or of the Domi- 
 nicans, or of any other particular ctunpany among you; tint that wherein you 
 all a(;ree, or profess to a^rer, lite doctrine nf llic council of '/Vent: So accor- 
 dingly on the other nidc, l)y the rc/l'e-ion of I'rott^stants, I do not understand the 
 doctrine of I^iilher, or C'ulvin, or JMclancDion, not the confeseion of ^^p^tsla or 
 Oenr.vn, nor the cnlrchism of lleidelberj^, nor the Drticles of the cluircli of 
 £n^/fin'/, no. nor (lie harmony of I'roteslant confessions; but that wlienin tliey 
 all nfjree, und which they all subscribe with a greater harmony, oi u perfect rule 
 of their faith and actiona, that is the liini.K. 
 
 "The KlHI.r, I say the Hini.K only in the reli);ion of Protestants, whatsoever 
 else they believe besides it: And the plain, irrefragable, and indubilable conse- 
 quences of it well may they hold as matter of cjpinion; but as matter of fnith 
 and religion, neither can they with coherence to their own grounds believe it 
 themselves, nor require the belief of it of othtn. without ruoit birh and ichii- 
 
 a
 
 206 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 inatical presumption. I, for my part, after a lonp, and (as I verily believe and 
 hope) impartial search of the iiite way to eteriuil happiness, do profess plainly 
 that I cannot find any rest for the sole of my foot, but upon this rock only. 
 
 " I see plainly, and with mine own eyes, that there are popes against popeg, 
 councils against councils, sonic fathers against others, the saine fathers against 
 themselves, a consent of fathers of one age against a consent of fathers of another 
 age, the church of one age against the church of another age: Traditive inter- 
 pretations of scripture are pretended, but there are few or none to be found: 
 No tradition but only of scripture ran derive itself from the fountain, but may 
 be plainly proved to be brought in, in such an age after Christ, or that such an 
 age it was not in. In a word, there is no sutlicient certainly but of scripture 
 only, for any considering man to build upon. This, therefore, and this only 1 
 have reason to believe: This I will profess, according to this I will live, and for 
 this if there be occasion I will not only willingly, but even gladly, lose my life, 
 though I should be sorry that citristians should take it from me. 
 
 " Propose me any thing out of this book, and require whether I believe or no, 
 and seem it never so incomprehensible to human reason, 1 will subscribe it with 
 hand and heart, as knowing no demonstration can be stronger than this, " God hath 
 Baid so, therefore it is true." In other things, I will take no man's liberty of judg- 
 ing from him; neither shall any man take mine from me. I will think no man 
 the worse man, nor the worse christian, I will love no man the less for differing 
 in opinion from me. And what measure I mete to others, I expect from them 
 again. I am fully assured that God does not, and therefore men ought not to 
 require any more of any man than this, to believe the scripture to be God'i 
 word, to endeavor to find the true sense of it, and to live according to it." — 
 [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 I am pursuing my opponent, to-day, though various assertions, and 
 vain endeavors to establish against the Catholic church, the charge of 
 immorality. I said, that the grace of penance was, in our estimation, 
 so powerful, that there is no sin which it may not efface by the mercy 
 of God. This, Mr. C. says, is a proof of our immorality ! If it bo 
 immoral to lift a heart-broken penitent from the depths of despair, and 
 tell him there is hope in God, my friend is right. Catholics believe 
 that there is no sin which God cannot forgive to sorrowing man. One 
 drop of the infinitely precious blood which was shed for us on Calvary, 
 is more than sufficient to cancel the iniquities of a thousand worlds : 
 "If your sins be as scarlet, saith the Lord, they shall be made as 
 while as snow." (Is. i. 18.) " Come to me, all you that labor and 
 are burdened," says Christ, " and I will refresh you." (Matt. xi. 28,) 
 " But," we are told, "the scripture speaks of an irremissible sin, a sin 
 against the Holy Ghost." That sin, my friends, is indeed a deadly 
 one. That sin is, obstinately resisting the known truth, and final im- 
 penitence, the almost inevitable consequence of suffering ourselves to 
 be blinded by religious prejudice. This sin is more common than 
 many (alas ! too many) are willing to believe. They are in that way 
 of which the scripture says : " // seemetk to a man right ; but the ends 
 thereof lead to death.'" (Prov. xvi. 28.) To such Christ solemnly de- 
 clares that " they shall, call upon him, and he will not hear ; and they 
 shall die in their sin." Such persons as these, find it easier to accuse 
 our church of a few riots in Rome, or elsewhere, which all the power 
 of religion could not have prevented, (and the only wonder is that they 
 did not occur more frequently,) than to study her divine evidences, be- 
 lieve the mysterious truths she proposes, and practise the holy lessons 
 she enjoins. But I must hasten to answer the multitude of heteroge- 
 neous questions which my friend has proposed.
 
 ROLA.X CATHOLIC RELIGION. 207 
 
 " What gives general councils their infallibility ]" The power and 
 omniscience of God : the Holy Ghost abiding with the church, all 
 days, until the consummation of the world. — " Can a thousand falli- 
 blea make one infallible 1" Yes; and, according to your own show- 
 ing, every one of twelve fallibles made an infallible; for you allowed 
 that the twelve apostles were, individually, and of course, collectively, 
 infallible. And, if you need more homely illustrations, does it follow, 
 that because one thread cannot keep a seventy-four to her moorings, 
 that a cable consisting of a thousand strong threads cannot do so 1 
 What one cannot do, many can, humanly speaking: how much more 
 60 when there is a divine promise : " Behold I am with you all days ; 
 the gates of hell shall not prevail aeraimt you.'" (Mark xvi. 18.) I never 
 said the Jansenists were Roman Catholics. I objected to Du Pin from 
 the very commencement of this controversy, on the ground of his be- 
 ing a Jansenist. The Jansenists have been condemned by the popes. 
 Hence, they lose no opportunity of insulting them, exaggerating 
 their faults and suppressing their virtues. My friend, then, followed 
 a notoriously treacherous guide, when he trusted himself, and his 
 cargo of nottoris about the popes, to such a helmsman as Du Pin. But, 
 bad as the Jansenists are, they are too learned in church history and 
 in the scriptures, to become members of any Protestant sect. Their 
 magnificent work. The Perpetuity of the Catholic Faith, is, probably, 
 the most learned production recorded in the annals of religious contro- 
 Tersy. I should be happy to lend it to any gentleman of this assem- 
 bly, and thereby convince him how venerable are the doctrines, which 
 want of knowledge induces some persons to assail. The opinions of 
 all the bishops in the world, are no article of faiih. Articles of* faith 
 are defined, and they arc no longer opinions. " Siquis dixerit;" " If 
 any say :" in this manner commence the canons of doctrine to define 
 articles of faith ; and they end by the words, " Anathema sit ;" in imi- 
 tation of St. Paul, who said : "Were I, or an angel from heaven, to 
 E reach to you any other gospel than what has been preached, let him 
 e anathema." This formula always marks the definitions of Catho- 
 lic faith, among the a^ts of general counriis. Hut it will make even 
 the smatterers in theology, the sciolists, I could have almost said, the 
 8chool-boys of Kiirope, laugh, to see the gentleman gravely quote Fra 
 Paolo, or Father Paul, the sycophant of the senate of Venice, the ex- 
 communicated monk, or, to say all in two words, the ^'^ Calvinislic 
 heretic,'''' as he is justly called by the Protestant i)ishop, Burnet, as 
 his authority for the proceedings of the bishojis in the council of Trent. 
 *' He hid," says Bossuet, "the spirit of Luther under the frock of a 
 monk." Henry IV. of France detected his hypocrisy, and denounced 
 him tt) the senate of Venice ; and Pallavicini convicted him of three 
 hundred and sixty errors in his j)retcii(lc<i history of the council of 
 Trent. I have got I'aolo Sarpis' hook in Fnglish, and will prove on 
 him some, at h'ast, of thcst; errors, if he is (|uoteil again, with his worthy 
 compeers, Striith and Du Pin! Now the truth is, that there were upwards 
 of two hundred and fifty bisho|)s, or prelates, of different nations, 
 nearly two huiidrcri of iIk; most learned tiicologians, and the ambassa- 
 dors of many ''atludir princes, at t!iis council. It was held in Trent, a 
 free city, and the utnu)si liberty was allowc:d in the disrussion of the (lif- 
 erent questions, previously to the definitions of faith. The council met 
 to decide anew, what had been always, every where, and by all believed
 
 208 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 in the Catholic church ; and the canon of scripture which it defined, was 
 no other than what had been settled in all the previous councils for 
 upwards of a thousand years; and this the whole Catholic world per- 
 fectly understood. What, now, becomes of the gentleman's 48 by 25? 
 Why does he exaggerate in figures when he talks against Catholics, 
 andjigurc in miniature when he speaks for them 1 Those beardless 
 youths he speaks of, had, I presume from Italian faces generally, as 
 much of that excrescence as other animals distinguished by a late 
 senator. My friend was quite tender to-day, indeed excessively elo- 
 quent, on the subject of marriage. Had he confined himself to its just 
 praise, as the primeval institution of God, on the flowery banks of 
 Eden, without outraging the express declarations of Christ, and the 
 inspiration of his Holy Spirit, in the new law, I would have repeated 
 what I have already said, in acknowledgment of the purity and sanc- 
 tity of the nuptial union. But, I must borrow his own words, to say, 
 with still more truth, that " I blushed for our audience, and was 
 shocked by the freedom of his attack upon the ordinance of God." 
 The gentleman may talk until the end of the year, and I would meet 
 him at every pause with the words of Christ, Matt. xix. 12 ; or, if 
 these are not plain enough to the " sensual man who thinkeih this 
 virtue foolishness," with those of St. Paul, (1 Cor. vii.) "/ would 
 that all men were even as myself. ^^ " / say to the tmmarried and the 
 widows, it is good for them if they so continue, even as /." (ver. 8.) " He 
 thai is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he 
 may please his wife ,• and he is divided. He that is without a wife, is 
 solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. 
 (verses 32, 33.) " Jlrt thou loosed from a wife, seek not a wife . . . if 
 a virgin marry, she hath not sinned .• nevertheless, such shall have tribu- 
 lation of the flesh. But I spare you." (ver. 28.) Can holy writ more 
 unequivocally reprobate all the gentleman's romancing about wedlock, 
 to the proscription of that pure devotedness to the holy offices of the 
 ministry, of which Jesus Christ, St. John, and St. Paul, have left ua 
 the brightest examples in their own persons 1 Mr. C. said : " Dared I 
 to tell, before this assembly, but half that 1 have learned of that virgin 
 priesthood :" and I, my friends, dared I tell, before this assembly, but 
 half that I have learned, from old Protestant residenters of this city, 
 of that married priesthood, in Elyria, on Lake Erie, and in towns in 
 the interior of this state, without casting the net over heads nearer 
 home, I would fill your souls with tenfold horror ! I would advise 
 my friend to tread lightly on these ashes. Holy as marriage is, and 
 holy as 1 confess it to be, St. Paul advises married people to forego, 
 at certain times, the privileges of that state, to give themselves to prayer. 
 (ver. 5.) The same is commanded in the prophet Joel, xi. 16. 
 The high-priest was forbidden, in Leviticus, to neglect the foregoing 
 injunctions, when he ministered unto the Lord ; as, also, to take a 
 widow to wife, but only a virgin. Now, a widow, according to my 
 friend's notion, would have a better title than a virgin to have a high- 
 priest for her husband, inasmuch as she had shown her reverence for 
 the institution of marriage, by a previous union. And, now, let me 
 ask again, why did my opponent labor so hard to give his Protestant 
 hearers, the Paulicians for their ancestors, when it is well known, 
 that these heretics condemned marriage? This, the Catholic church 
 has not done. But, when a vow is made to God, she says, with St.
 
 R03IAM CATHOLIC RELIGIOIf. 209 
 
 Paul, (1 Tim. v. 12.) " it is damnable, in either man or woman, to 
 break it." Has my opponent read all these texts 1 Does he not re- 
 member to have read in history, the honor in which the liprht of reason 
 taught all {he naliona of the ecrlh to hold virginity, and the privileges 
 to which it was every where entitled ] Has he read of scandalous 
 damages recovered in courts, in England, by Reverends, who were 
 mocked to scorn the following Sunday, when they went into the pul- 
 pit to preach 1 Has he read of other reverends, who have had to pay 
 damages for the slanderous reports, put in circulation by their fair 
 companions in weal and woe? Is this the tribulation according to the 
 flesh, of which St. Paul speaks? "The decrees of councils attest that 
 priests have not been such immaculate purities." Well ; and what 
 do these records of the civil courts of England, and the domestic an- 
 nals of broken hearts and blighted honor, attest? As well might the 
 gentleman charge marriage with the shocking excesses, which it did 
 not prevent in David and Solomon, as the law of celibacy with the 
 specks and blemishes of the Catholic priesthood. 
 
 In every religion there will be bad men, and by them every virtue 
 tvill be outraged, but must w^e on this account blame virtue and ex- 
 punge it; must wc, like Moses descending from Sinai, break the 
 tables of the law, because of a stiff-necked and a revolted people ; or, 
 on the contrary, hold up that law before them in terror, remind them 
 of their duly, and reclaim them, by exhibitions of divine justice and 
 mercy, to virtue? " It is essential for a bishop to be a married man." 
 And the gentleman's vote would be withheld from me, because I ana 
 a bachelor. Why, sir, St. Paul does not mean that a bishop should be 
 a man of one wife, but that he should have had but one — otherwise, as 
 he was himself unmarried, he would have acted against his own rules. 
 Now I claim to be as clear-sighted, and as well read in the bible, as 
 my friend, and I maintain it is essential a bishop should not be a mar- 
 ried man; for he will not then be afraid to bring home from the bed of 
 death the small-pox, the cholera, or the plague, to his wife and chil- 
 dren ; he will not be prevented by the engrossing care of a family 
 from visiting tlie " widow and tlie orphan;' he will have more money 
 to spare for the wants of the poor. "To preside over a christian con- 
 gregation," says Mr. Campbell, "a bishop should know experimen- 
 tally the domestic affections and relations; he should study human 
 nature in the bosom of his family; there is a class of feelings which 
 no gentleman of single life can comprehend, or in which he can sym- 
 pathise, and Ihcae are rgnential to that intimacy (what intimacy !) with 
 all classes, sexes and du'ies, ml/,ich his n lationa to the church often im- 
 pose upon him." What does all this mean? I am sincerely shocked 
 at this freedom. But if it mean any thing that I should answer, it 
 ■would mean, that a bishop should be a bachelor to sympathise with a 
 numerous class of christians, viz. old maids; he should have a scold' 
 tn/j wife to be able to nympathise with a scolded husband i a sickly 
 wife, an ugly wife, a drinking wife, an arbitrary wife, an ignorant, 
 stupid wife, to know cjpcrirneutalh/ what liii.sbaiids suffer in all these 
 domestic relations; \\v. should, and he should iwl, have children. Can 
 there be any thing more superlatively ridiculous! As well might you 
 exact of the physician, that he should have had all the diseases you 
 may call upon him to cure A bishop ran study his own heart, and 
 as Cicero says, "Timeo hominem unius libri;" if he will not learn 
 s2 27
 
 210 DJCBATE oy TUB 
 
 human nature there, he will not learn it any where. I have much more 
 to say on this subject, which queen Elizabeth, Oxford college, (Eng- 
 land,) regulations to the " fellows," and Dr. Miller, of Princeton, 
 furnished me ; but whether I resume this unpleasant task or not, de- 
 pends on my learned opponent. I have a large family to provide for, 
 and I try at least to take care of it. Fifty little orphans, in want of 
 an asylum, look to me for bread ! and as Christ and St. Paul have 
 taught mo to live, while I have ears to hear, and a heart to commiser- 
 ate the hard lotofthe fatherless and motherless, and claims to present 
 in their name to a generous public, so, must I reason and judge, I should 
 continue to live. These little beneficiaries gather around me when I 
 visit them, and they call me by the endearing name of father! and 
 their appealing looks, their grateful smiles, their wants and artless- 
 ness and joy excite in me emotions which a virtuous parent well 
 might share, and an unfeeling one, who neglects or abuses his chil- 
 dren, well might envy ! I invite my friend to visit these little inter- 
 esting orphans, and see how an old bachelor gets along among them. 
 Did I really defend white lies'? I think not. "One sin, in the 
 sight of heaven is as great as another." This I deny. This doctrina 
 saps the fovmdation of sound morals ; it leaves us no energy for virtu 
 ous effort; it writes the mysterious " Mane, Tecel, Phares," on thft 
 wall, for the first and least offence. ; it has no warrant in scripture. God 
 often speaks of nations filling up the measure of their guilt, and what 
 could this mean, if one sin were as bad in divine estimation, and filled 
 up as much space as a thousand 1 It is true. He punishes all sins, 
 but not alike ; therefore all are not equally heinous in his sight. Mr. C. 
 says, " I wish the gentleman would enable me to deliver myself," ice. 
 You may deliver yourself on any point you please, I have no objection. 
 
 His next attempt at proof of immorality, was the allegation that we 
 have destroyed the second commandment, rejecting the law against 
 making graven images, that wo may worship creatures, and images 
 of creatures, and introduce idolatry ! the invocation of the spirits of 
 dead men and women, &c. &c. My friends, this charge of leaving 
 out the second commandment is very stale, and, no doubt, my Protes- 
 tant hearers will be astonished to see and hear for themselves that it 
 is utterly unfounded. Here is the Catholic catechism of this diocese : 
 it thus reads. 2. "Which is the first commandment 1" Ans. "/a»» 
 the Lord thy God, who hroui^ht thee out of the land of Egypt, and out 
 of the house of bondage. Thou shall not have strange gods before me. 
 Thou shall not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any- 
 thing, that is in the heavens above or the earth beneath, or in the waters 
 under the earth .- thou shall not adore them nor serve them.^'' The Douay 
 catechism is equally full, (holds it open,) so are all our bibles. I 
 will display this little catechism here, or I am willing to pitch it 
 among my audience for inspection. They will see that it contains 
 the commandment in full, and that there is nothing in it, in violation 
 of the law of God, on this, or on any other subject. It is an admirable 
 abridgment of faith and morals. If there have been any catechisms 
 published without the commandments in full, it is because they were 
 published for the use of children, whose memories were not to be en- 
 cumbered by too long answers, when the sense and substance of the 
 precept could be sufficiently expressed in fewer words. As to the 
 division of the commandments, my friend knows that the bible was
 
 UOyLA^i CATHOLIC &£UOI<m, Sll 
 
 not originally divided into chapters and verses as it is at present. 
 But with this question we are not now concerned. 
 
 It is not a crime to make an image, if we do not adore and worship 
 it instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever ; otherwise God would 
 have transgressed his own prohibition, for he commanded Moses to 
 make a graven image, namely, the image of a brazen serpent, and to 
 6et it up before a people exceedingly prone to idolatry, that they may 
 look on it and be cured of the bites of the fiery serpents that stung them 
 for their murmurings in the wilderness. The divine lawgiver also 
 directed (Exodus xxv.) two images of Cherubim to be made, with 
 their wings overshadowing the mercy seat of the ark of the cov- 
 enant, towards which the people turned in prayer, and before which 
 Joshua and the ancients of Israel fell flat upon their feccs until the 
 evening, at Hai, when they were defeated, for the sin of Achan, by the 
 men of that city; and Joshua said, " Alas, O Lord God," &c. vii. 7. 
 What was the temple of Solomon, built by the special directions of 
 that God who had forbidden the making of graven images to adore 
 and serve them, but a temple of images 1 Never has any house, per- 
 haps, since or before, not excepting the celebrated picture galleries of 
 the Louvre, abounded more in pictures and likenesses of things in 
 heaven and things on earth, than did that venerable pile, and yet God 
 vpas not offended, but promised that his ears should be attentive to the 
 prayer of him that prayed in that place, as we read in the book of Kings, 
 The objection is unphilosaphical, as well as unscriptural. What, I 
 ask, are the letters G. 0. D. but pictures, representing a certain idea? 
 So written language, when first used, was a series of jHctures, as every 
 •cholar knows; and the bible abounds, like the temple, with these pic- 
 torial signs. Again, where is the immorality of looking on the em- 
 blem of our dying Savior ? Is it not the gospel narrative of his sorrows 
 and his love, condensed ] The council of Trent, Sess. xxv. teaches, 
 what every Catholic knows, " that while we venerate the memorials 
 of Christ and his saints, wc are not to believe that any divinity or 
 power resides in them." I would, therefore, express in a few words, 
 the motive of our roRpect for the crucifix, and our sense of its lifeless- 
 ness and want of power, in the following apostrophe: "Thou canst 
 not see, thou canst not hear, thou canst not help me, but thou remind- 
 est me of my God." 
 
 Were the objection of my worthy opponent rigorously urged, it 
 would be impiety for tlieor[)han girl to wear around her neck the like- 
 ness of a fond, hut alas! preninturcly deceased motlior : or a soldier 
 boy the miniature of tlie fatiirr of iiis country. The (liffcronl trades and 
 professions should be arraigned for the idolatrous practice of suspend- 
 ing before their doorn the signs of their various occupations. 'I'ho 
 United States' mint would be a factory of idols, and every money- 
 holder, in hank notes, or the hard mrtal, an idolater! Finally, if the 
 Catholics subKlitutc the words " honor and veneration " fur " wor- 
 ship," whf-n speaking of the relative respect paid to tiie rnibh ms of 
 Christ and his saints, yet even the use of this word could 1)C defend- 
 ed from the Kible Chron. last ch. where the people, as it reads in the 
 Protestant lublo, wnrshiprd thr h>rd and the Kini^, but surely not with 
 the same kind of worship. The rxleripr act appeared the same, but 
 in the heart, there was distinction of homage. If it lie wrong and an 
 outrage to the mediation of Chriat to seek inferior intercessors with 
 God, why did Paul ask tlie prayers of tlio christians to whom ho ad-
 
 ^12 DEBATE OX THB 
 
 dressed his epistles ? "Why did God command the importunate friends 
 of Job to ask the just man's prayers for thcin ] Why did he appoint 
 a priest to offer gifts and sacrifices for sin ? And why did the apos- 
 tles teach us to say, " I believe in the communion of saints." // was 
 $tran!^e, said king James, to the Scotch bishops, to allow those honorable 
 places in the churches, to utiicorvs, Horn, and devils, (griffins) which 
 were refused to prophets and apostles ! " Let them not lead people by the 
 tu)se,^' says Dr. Herbert Tliorndike, Prcltemlary of JVest minster, " to be- 
 lieve they can prove their supposition that the pope is anti-christ, and the 
 papists idolaters, when they can rw/." Just Weights and Measures, 
 p. 11. " It is a shame to charge men with what they are not guilty 
 of, in order to make the breach wider, already too wide." Dr. Mon- 
 tague, Prot. bishop of Norwich, Inv. of Saints, p. 60. 
 
 Another proof of immorality is the distinction between material and 
 formal sins ! This is a just distinction. The civil law recognizes it. 
 An injury done with malice aforethought, or formally , is very different, 
 as to the guilt of the agent, from accidental and unintentional injury. 
 A child, a maniac, a man in his sleep, or otherwise unconscious of 
 what he does, and not the culpable cause of that want of conscious- 
 ness, may inflict an injury, with impunity, for which liberty, and life 
 should, under different circumstances, be very justly forfeited. My 
 friend has brought up casuistry. The tendency of such punishments 
 is salutary : and if a severer penalty is inflicted for the murder of a 
 priest, Lc, it is to preserve the inviolability of religion, which watches 
 over the rights of parents, to the fear and love of their children, and 
 of the law. to the obedience and respect of those for whose preserva- 
 tion and wellbeing it was enacted. My learned friend traduced the 
 clergy of the Catholic church and described the dangers of the con- 
 fessional. As well might he denounce the medical profession. He 
 read numerous extracts from publications of Smith, Slocum & Go's 
 joint-stock concern, for the def\imation of innocence. He may sit 
 down, in the lowest places, with these worthy associates, if he will. I 
 shall not molest them in their calculations of the '■'■ pieces of silver.^* 
 " I will leave them alone in their glory." 
 
 The gentleman allows that auricular confession was the law of the 
 church in the fifth century. This is generous, and he is contradicted 
 in the concession, by some Protestants, who, for want of better knowl- 
 edge, give the institution a later date. It remounts, however, farther 
 up the chain of holy usages, viz. to the time of ('hrist, who gave 
 such power to men as that expressed in the text, St. John, xx. 22, 23. 
 This power was not to be exercised without a knowledge of the dis- 
 positions of the sinner, and this knowledge could only be obtained 
 from his own confession. Leo I. did not, therefore, ''open the 
 floodgates of impiety by substituting private for public confession," 
 The practice is of divine institution, and how horrid is it not, to speak 
 thus of what all ages and nations of Christianity, the Greek and the 
 I.alin churches and the sects of the east, have ever held as the work 
 of Christ, taught by himself and every where jireached by his apos- 
 tles ! Tertullian and Origen, who lived in the age next to the apos- 
 tles, hold the following language : " If you vnthdraw from confession, 
 think of hellfire, which confession cxtingtiishes." '■>Look carefully about 
 thee in choosing the person to whom you confess — confess to hi my our most 
 tecrct xzm." " // is necessary,''^ says St, Basil, in the Ath century, " to con- 
 feu our tins to those to whom the dispensation of the divine mysteries it
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 213 
 
 committed.''^ " Let no one" says Si. .Augustine, *' say to himself; ' Ido 
 penance to God, in private.^ le it then in vain that Christ has said, what- 
 soever you loose on earth, shall be loused in heaven ? Is it in vain that 
 the keys have been given to the church ?" These texts abundantly 
 prove that auricular confession was practised before the time of Leo 1. 
 in the fifth century, and consequently that Christ and his apostles 
 must share the odiunn in which my opponent presumes to involve the 
 Catholic church. He says the practice of the public confession of sin, 
 before the whole congregation, was the last entrenchment against the 
 rapid declension of morals in the fifth century. And yet with glaring 
 inconsistency, after contending for the practice so vehemently, in 
 almost the same breath, he tells us : "There is no ear but God's, to 
 which our errors or our faults ought to be confessed, for that the 
 secrets of all hearts are his." Can there be contradiction more palpa- 
 ble ] And does not the Catholic practice save the sinner's honor, gently 
 withdraw him from the downward path to ruin, admonish him of his 
 ingratitude and restore him to religion and to society a better man, 
 in all probability to sin no morel " Is there more condescension or 
 mercy in a Roman priest," asks my opponent, " than in God ]" Why, 
 the blasphemous question might have been put to Christ by the leper, 
 when the Savior ordered him " to go show himself to the priest." Malth. 
 viii. 4. " Js tiiere more condescension, or mercy, in a Jewishpriest than 
 in Godr 
 
 My friend quotes St. James, " confess your sins to one another :" 
 but he takes care to omit the antecedents and the coiistquents of the text. 
 *' Is any man sick among you. Let him bring in the priests of the 
 church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name 
 of the Lord, and the prayer iffailh sfiall save the sick man, and if he be 
 in sins, they shall Ije forgiven him.''' James V. 14.- Is not obedience 
 to the directions of the Holy Ghost, the calling in of \\\c priests and 
 availing himself of their ministry, the indispensable condition prescri- 
 bed by God himself,, in the scripture, for the cure of the corporal mal- 
 adies, but, much more, of the sins of the fiick man T Could my 
 friend have bt^en more elTectually refuted thuu he evidently is by 
 e text of his own selection ? [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock. F, M. 
 Mr. Camtbem, risn — 
 
 From the beginning 1 have said, and I repeated it yesterday, that 
 1 would not state any fact which I could not sustain. I do not care 
 how often I am put to the test. I have here three catechisms, in 
 which the second commandment is omitted, and to keep up the number 
 ten, they have made two out of the Iflth. Here are two catechisms, 
 published l)y the autliority of the Iloman (Catholic church, 'i'he title 
 of one, from the highest authority since the council of Trent, is as 
 follows : — 
 
 " The most Rev. Dr. Jnmt-l BuIUt'ii catrrJiiBm : revised, rnlnrf^ed. npprovrd. 
 And reconiiiifndcd by four Roiiiiin Catholic Arrhbinliops of Ircliinil, an a pfnci«l 
 cnJcrhinni for Ihc Itin^docn. SiifTrr little childn-n to come to iiir, and forbid 
 thrill not, for of mirh m (he kin^^doiii of (Jod. Mark x. I'l. Thin Ib rlrrnal life, 
 that thfy iiiif^ht know thcr, llic only tnic! (lod, and Jrsin CliiiHt. whom thou 
 hatt gent. John, xviii. ;j. Tw»lfth eijition: cari^fiiily rorrrrted and iiii|)rovrd, 
 with Bniendnif.nti. liublin; iViiiled by Richard Coynr, "1. (,"ap«:l «t. Hookseller 
 end Printer to the R. C. C'ollcjje rjf St. Patrick and Maynooth, ood publisher to 
 the Catholic Biahopi of Irclaud. I82G." [See tiugc 36. 
 T 28
 
 214 DEBATE ON THB 
 
 Q. " Say the commandments of God. 
 
 A. 1. I am the Lord thy Goil; thou shalt have no strange gods befora in*. 
 
 2. Thou shalt not take ihe name of the Lord thy God in vain. 
 
 9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. 
 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods. Kxod. xx." 
 
 Are these the ten commandments of God, as all Roman Catholic 
 children are taught !! 
 
 The single fact that the four archbishops of Ireland, and the Rom- 
 an Catholic college of Maynooth should have impiously dared to 
 Btrike one commandment from the ten, which God wrote on two tables 
 with his own finger, and should have changed and divided the tenth 
 into two, speaks volumes in proof of my allegataagainst the Romanist 
 rale of faith. But we shall hear another witness — Title: 
 
 " The General Catechism revised, corrected and enlarged by the Right Rev- 
 erend James Doyle D. D. Bp. &c. and prescribed by him to be taught through- 
 out the diocese of Kildaire and Lerghlm. [Motto the same as in the other, ster- 
 eotyped and printed at Dublin by the same printer, A. D. 1827. J See. p. 25. 
 
 Q. Say the ten connnandnientsof God. 
 
 A. I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have any strange gods before me. 
 Thou shalt not make to thyself neither an idol or any figure to adore it. 
 
 2. Thou jhalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord 
 fvill not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord bis God in vain. 
 
 9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. 
 
 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods." 
 
 This merits the reprobation pronounced on the preceding. 
 
 Again : here is an American catechism. — Yes, in this land of 
 bibles has been published a catechism, in which the same liberty ia 
 taken. Its title is : 
 
 " An abridgement of the Christian doctrine, with proofs of scripture 
 on points controverted, by way of question and answer : composed in 
 1619 by Rev. Henry Tuberville, D. D. of the English college of 
 Douay : Now approved and recommended for his diocese, by the right 
 Rev. Benedict bishop of Boston, This is the way, walk ye in it." 
 Isa. XXX. 21. New York; published by John Doyle; No. 12. Liber? 
 ty street, stereotyped by A.Chandler. 1833." See p. 54. 
 
 " Q. What is the second conmiandnient ? 
 
 A. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." 
 
 Is this the second commandment? It is not. That child is taught 
 falsehood, which is taught thus to learn the decalogue. If the Roman 
 bishops and archbishops in Ireland and America, in this our day can 
 thus impose on all the youth in the Roman communion, and thus per- 
 vert and annul one of God's commandments, to make way for the 
 worshiping of images, what shall we say of the morality of her rulo 
 of faith in this and other matters? 
 
 It is a poor apology for this expurgation of the decalogue, that it is 
 not so done in the Douay bible : for when these catechisms were in- 
 troduced, and even yol in most Catholic coimtries, not one layman in a 
 thousand ever read that bible : the catechism intended for universal 
 consumption contained all his knowledge of God's law. What my- 
 riads, then, through this fraud, must have lived and died in the be- 
 lief that the second commandment was no part of God's law ! It 
 is clearly proved, that the pastors of the church have struck out one 
 of God's ten words; which not only in the Old Testament, but in all 
 revelation, are the most emphatically regarded as the synopsis of all 
 religion and morality. They have also made a ninth commandment 
 out of the tenth, and thsir ninth, in that independent position, be-
 
 R05LVN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 215 
 
 comes identical with the seventh commandment, and makes God use 
 a tautology in the only instrument in the universe that he wrote with 
 his owil hand ! But why this annulling of the second commandment'? 
 Because it is a positive prohibition of the practice of bowing down 
 to images, and doing them homage; a custom dearer to the Romish 
 church than both the second and the seventh commandment ! It is, 
 however, gross idolatry. So far at least as the ignorant and unedu- 
 cated part of the community is concerned ; no spiritual, no highly 
 cultivated mind needs such aids of worship — nay, they would, to 
 such persons, be hindrances rather than aids of devotion. But tho 
 uneducated and sensual mass, which are in that community, — the vast 
 majority, literally adore the image, and delight in the picture more 
 than in the Oeator. And, therefore, the abrogation of the second 
 commandment, by the priests, is the positive introduction of idolatry. 
 
 The Hebrew bible says and all versions of it in effect say, " Thou 
 ■halt not make unto thyself any graven image, nor the likeness of 
 any thing in heaven above, nor in the earth beneath. Thou shalt not 
 bow down to them nor serve them." The gentleman made as hand- 
 some and eloquent a defence of the practice of violating this solemn 
 precept as could be well imagined. He referred us to the tabernacle 
 and temple, of ancient time full of types — patterns of things in hea- 
 ven, &c : but unfortunately for his logic, none were permitted to wor- 
 ship these patterns of ideas. They were but to portray the things to 
 be revealed in the gospel age — a picture-book, to sketch the outlines 
 of that redemption, which the Messiah wrought, and of the worship 
 of the kingdom of heaven. They never presumed to worship them, 
 they looked through these outward symbols, or signs of ideas, to the 
 spiritual substance as we look through unfigurative language to the 
 sense. 
 
 The " brazen serpent " introduced by my opponent, had the authori 
 ty of God, for its being made, and was a splendid type of him that 
 destroyed the serpent, that old serpent the devil, who had bitten the 
 human race. When men bitten, looked at it, they were healed : but 
 when thf-y began to worship it, it was destroyed. I say, it had the 
 authority of God. But where is the same authority for carrying 
 about the bones of a dead saint, or the hair of the Virgin Mary, or 
 the feet of Balaam's ass] Where is the first word, in favor of wor- 
 shiping or making an image of the cross, or of the Savior, or of any 
 saint 1 or of venerating a grave, a relic, or a picture 1 
 
 My opponent ingeniously asked, if the name of God were not a 
 picture] Profound reasoning! The name of (Jod a picture of the 
 same class with the image of the cross and of the Virgin! But a 
 mother says to her infant, " my life !" and she may say to Lady Mary 
 in the same style, " my life !" Ingenious ! I would ask this Roman 
 Calholie lady when sIk; looks upon her rliild, and exclaims " my life," 
 if she feels the same religious affections, the; same pious emotions, 
 as when she looks np to tlit; Virgin Mary and exclaims, " wy ///*»■.'" 
 Is not the gentleman rather playing [he s(p))liist, or sporting in jest, 
 than gravely reasoning ilic subject] ('trtainly, he would not ho leach 
 his congregation in the absence of Protestants! This is as felicitous 
 and as rlir-loriral as his allusir)ns to the. device and images on medals, 
 or on gold and silver coin. There is, indeed, idolatry here! But 
 there is no hypocrisy in tho temple of mammon. Moreover, these 
 worshiperfl adore not the image of money ; but the money itself.
 
 216 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Next came the cherubim. What an association of ideas ! "What 
 confusion in the mind that associates the cherubim in Solomon's tem- 
 ple, with the image on a dollar ! Is the gentleman serious ? Did the 
 people see the cherubim, in the holiest of all ] Aaron, the priest, only 
 stood before those cherubim, as the type of our high priest, who offers 
 his sacrifice in heaven : and Aaron stood there only once in a year. 
 If he understood either the type or the anti-type, he could not adduce 
 it either for the worship of an image or the offering of any sacrifice on 
 earth: for, like Aaron in the holiest of all, Christ offers his sacrifice 
 in heaven. Aaron presented the blood upon the propitiatory : but Christ 
 entered once for all. As the bishop's high priest is not in heaven but 
 at Rome; all the sacrifice which he can offer on earth is not worth a 
 farthing: for in the Christian and Jewish sense, no sacrifice on earth 
 can avail any thing. Such were the types, and such, pertainly,are the 
 anti-types. Offerings for sin, now, are only made in heaven. The 
 very allusion to Aaron, strikes a blow at the priesthood of the Roman 
 Catholic church, as if God had not accepted in heaven, the sacrifice of 
 his Son, and called for their assistance ! ! 
 
 But it is hinted that I should more fully prove the immorality of the 
 Roman Catholic rule of faith. I have no lack of documents on this 
 subject. The saint Ligori, by the help of saint Pius VII. has richly 
 furnished us with indubitable authority. "The attorney general of the 
 devil lives at Rome," says my opponent, "and prevents the beatifica- 
 tion of all saints." How great, then, must have been the virtues of 
 St. Ligori, who, in spite of the devil, was canonized by pope Pius 
 VI1 1 r See how equivocation is taught in this rule of faith and mo* 
 
 rality : — 
 
 " To swear," says St. Ligori, " with equivocation, where there is a good rea- 
 son, and equivocation itself is lawful, is not wron^. And if a person swears 
 without a good reason, it is not to be (-onsidercd p perjury; since, in one sense 
 of the word, and according to mental restriction, he swears what is true." Li- 
 gor. Lib. iii. N. 151. [Synopsis, 159. 
 
 Dissimulation is variously taught. 
 
 " It is lawful,'' continues Ligori, "for a Catholic, when he 
 
 is passing through a country belonging to heretics, and is in danger of losing hi* 
 life or property, to pretend that lie is not a Catholic, and to eat meat on fast 
 davn." Id. Lib. ii. N. 15. [Synopsis, p. 216. 
 
 This new old rule of faith has made some new sins, which neither 
 patriarchs nor Jews did ever commit; and here is one of that class 
 which no American can ever commit: 
 
 " Is it a mortal sin," asks the saint, to stealasmall piece of a sacred relic? Ans. 
 " There is no doubt, but that, in the district of Rome, it is a mortal sin. But out 
 of this district, if any one steal a small piece of a relic, it is probable that it is 
 no mortal sin, provided the relic be not thereby disgraced, nor, its value less- 
 ened; unless it be some notable or rare relic, such for in^itance, as the Holy 
 Croa». or the hair of the blessed Virgin Mary," &c. Id. ib. N. 532. [Synopsis, 
 P- 167. 
 
 There is a secret on the subject of infallibility, which the saint Li- 
 gori has begun to divulge. Custom, it would seem, since general 
 councils are gone out of fashion, is from this time forth to be the 
 standard of orthodoxy and infallibility; at least, in morals. Listen 
 to the moral theology of the Romish church on this point : 
 
 " Custom," says the saint, " is defined the unwritten law. In orderthat custom 
 should obtain the force and obligation of law, three things are required. 1st. 
 That it be introduced not by any particular person, but by a community, or at 
 least, by the majority of a community, which is capable of making laws, al- 
 though, in fact, said community cannot make the laws. 2ndly. It is required 
 
 e
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 217 
 
 that the custom should be reasonable." Custom has a threefold state. In the 
 beginning all those persons \vho introduce a custom contrarj' to law, sin. In 
 process of time, those who follow a custom that has already been introduced 
 Dy their ancestors, do not conmiit a sin in following the custorii, but they can be 
 punished for it by the prince. In fine, those who follow a custom afttr it has 
 become a rule, neither sin, nor can they be punished for it." Id. lb. i\. 107. 
 
 " The time required according to the canons of the Romish 
 CHURCH, FOR A CUSTOM TO BECOME A LAW. In order that custom should 
 obtain the force and oblig.iLion of law, it is required, 
 
 "3dly," continues the saint, "that it should continue a long time with re- 
 peated acts. In regard to the time that is sutiicient to render a custom lawful, 
 one opinion is, that it is to be left to the judgment of the prudent, according to 
 the repetition of the acts, and tlie quality of the matter. The second opinion is, 
 that ten years are required, and are sulticient; for this is the length ot time re- 
 quired for the introducing and legalizing of a custom by the canonical law, un- 
 less it be in some place where the contrary is sanctioned." Id. ib. Lib. i. IV. 107. 
 [Synopsis, p. 183. 
 
 " Merchandizing, and the selling of goods at auction on the Sundays, is, oa 
 account of its being the general custom, altogether lawful. Buying and selling 
 goods on the Lord's daj- and on festival days are certainly forbidden bv the can- 
 onical law, but where tne contrary custom prevails, it is excusable." Id. lb. N.286, 
 
 " He who makes use of the knavery and cunning," says the saint, " which is 
 usually practised in gambling, and which has the sanction of custom, is not 
 bound to restore what he wins, since both parties know that such tricks are cus- 
 tomary, and consequently they consent to them." Id. ib. N. 882. 
 
 Gambling consecrated for priests and people by the law of custom : 
 
 " We will now s'low, however, t le canons tj tne contrary, notwithstanding, 
 that aJl sorts of gambling arc allowed. This we prove Ironi Ligori's own con- 
 cessions. He teaches as lollows; — " The canon'*," says he "' which forbid games 
 of hazard do not appear to be received except inasmuch as the gnmbling 
 is carried on with the danger of scandLil. Be it known," continues he, "that the 
 above mentioned canonical law is so much nullified by the contrary custom, that 
 not only laymen, but even the clergy (io not sin, if they play cards principally 
 for the sake of recreation, andj'or a moderate sum of money." Id. lb. N. 883. 
 [Synopsis, p. 235. 
 
 A new way of sanctifying the sabbath : 
 
 "BuLE FIGHTS A.M) I'l.AVs AM/)\VKi). " On the entrance of a prince OF no- 
 bleman into a city, it is lav. I'ul on a Sunday to prepare the drapery, arrange the 
 theatre, &c., and to act a comedy, alio to <xhibit the bull-fights; the reason is, 
 because »uch marks of joy art moralbj necessary lor the public weal." Id. ib. 
 IV. 304. [Synop«i«. p. 193. 
 
 The Roman Catholic rule of manners makes it even lawful to sin : 
 
 " It is lawful," says Ligori, " to iiulucc a person to commit a smaller sin, in or- 
 der to avoid one that is greater." Id. JV. 77. [Synopsis, p. 255. 
 
 " Let the Confessor," says the snint, " enjoin upon those scrupulous, who are 
 afraid of sin in every action, that they dct Iriely, despise their scruples, and do 
 contrary to what they dirtal"', where sin is not evident. [Synopsis, p. 173. 
 
 This law licenses drunkenness : 
 
 "It is no sin to g<^t drunk, by the a<!vi(-e ofn physiriiin, if one's health cannot 
 Otherwisf; bi: rcfttorcd." id. iS . 70. (SviiopsiB, \>.'ir>A. 
 
 Hence drunkards may bq acceptable communicants ! 
 
 " It ii lawful," sayn Ligori, " to administer the s.k rniiients to dninkards, if 
 they arc in the probable flanaer of death, and had previously the intention of 
 receivin;; thrm."' LIgor, vi. N. 81. [Synopsis, p. 260. 
 Ignorance is the mother of dcvouon, even yet : 
 
 The si.NNf.R .MUST he i.Krr iv ifJvoiiANrE. — 'I h«: iloctrine it at followt: (1 
 take it from the onint verhntim.) " If the penitint (says he,) is in inculpable 
 ignoniiire, in regnrrl t'l those thing* conrcrning wliicli, it is possible to 1)p invin- 
 cibly ignorant, although this ignonime be of the ' law of (iod,' and the mnfcssor 
 prudently thinks (hat to ndinoni'h the penitent would not correct him, then, and 
 in that case, the confessor inu.it abntuiii from admonishing the penitent, and mutt 
 leave him in his ignorance." Id. ib. 
 
 Heretics are still to be punished, not only by virtue of the general 
 T 88
 
 218 DEBATE ON TIIK 
 
 council of Lateran, A. D. 1215, which says, "Let the secular powers 
 be compelled, if necessary, to extcnninalc, to their utmost power, all 
 heretics denoted by the church;" but according to the moral theology, 
 as reported by the saint. 
 
 Hkoetics to i)k pu.mshed. — " A bishop is bound," says Benedict XIV. " even 
 in places where the tribunal of thuhuly inijiiisilioii'is in force, sedulously and care- 
 fully to purge the diocese that is committed to his care, from heretics; and, if he 
 find any of them, he ought to punish them according to the canons; he should 
 however, be cautious, not to iimder the iiitjuisilors of tlu faith from doing their 
 dutv." Ligor. Kp. Doc. INlor. p. 378. [Synopsis, p. 294. 
 
 From the influence of all these laws, why should it be thought 
 strange that the clergy are exceedingly corrupt? Listen to the saints 
 
 How many rtlapsing sinners are involved in eternal ruin by following the 
 directions of bad confessors! "The saint has told us, that, AMONG THE 
 PRIKSTS, WHO LIVK IS THE WORLD, IT IS RARE, AND VERY 
 RARE. TO FIND ANY THAT ARE GOOD." [Synopsis, p. 180. 
 
 Yet according to these assumptions, under the sanction of Christ, 
 all are bound to hear them on peril of damnation: for, " he that hear- 
 eth you, heareth me ; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me : and he 
 that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." So, to despise these 
 priests, is to despise God ! 
 
 Once more, from Ligori, and I shall have given almost a specimen 
 of the immorality and impiety of the Roman Catholic rule of faith, on 
 general points of religion and morality. There is no one subject on 
 which we could be more copious than this one : but from respect to our 
 audience we shall give but the remotest hint. 
 
 "A bishop, however poor he may be, cannot appropriate to himself pecuniary 
 fines without the license of the apostolical see. But he ought to apply them to 
 pious uses, %vhich the council cf IVcnt has laid upon non-resident clergymen, or 
 upon those clergymen who keep nieces." Ligor. Ep. Doc. Mor. p. 444. [Synop- 
 sis, p. 294. 
 
 Now, if a priest should keep a riicce, it is a very expiable and tri- 
 fling offence; but should he marry a wife, he must be excommunica- 
 ted forever! Thus the Roman Catholic rule of faith treats the Bible, 
 and annuls, at pleasure, every law and institution of heaven ! Have I 
 not, then, my respected auditors, fully proved the fallibility and im* 
 moral tendency of the doctrine and rule of faith, of the bishop's church 
 — to say nothing of that system upon the clergy themselves, who ex- 
 pound and inculcate it? 
 
 One word, before I sit down, on the unanimous consent of the Greek 
 and Latin fathers. I have said before, and I repeat it, if they agree 
 on any two points, they are, in giving testimony to the scriptures, and 
 that it is the duty of all to read them. So far they are all Protestant, 
 and not Roman Catholic. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 4 o'clock, P. M. 
 Bishop Furceli, rises — 
 
 The extract from Chillingworth will be viewed by men of intelli- 
 gence, as one of the strongest arguments advanced in this debate on 
 the Catholic side of the question. And it may be as well to observe, 
 that my friend has probably first seen it in the Catholic work, the 
 Amicable Discus.'sion, from which he has quoted. Chillingworth was 
 distinguished as a controversialist. He had a public disputation, like 
 tho present, with some Jesuits, by whom he was not only defeated 
 but converted to the Catholic faith. But yielding, like Gibbon, to the 
 solicitation of friends, the importunities, the livings presented to him...
 
 BOilAN CATHOLIC KELIGION 219 
 
 or to which he was presented, by Laud, archbishop of London, he re- 
 canted, and finally, as it is on good grounds asserted, he died a Jew. 
 The only apology he could offer for his versatility was, that he found 
 every one of these religions in the bible — it was the only resting place 
 for tht soles of his feel — that is to say, he trampled upon it, to subserve 
 the purposes of base, worldly interest ! But I have now, thank God, 
 something more tangible to offer in the way of prorf, that nothing 
 can be conceived more inexcusably unfair, than the arguments em- 
 ployed against the Catholic religion. I now pledge myself to shew 
 to every man of honor in this city, that the last allegation read by 
 the gentleman, purporting to be from the works of Liguori, is not to 
 be found in the works of that writer. It is all a base fabrication, I 
 will not say of Mr. C. ; but of somebody. I will meet this charge 
 with a complete and an overwhelming refutation. We have now 
 come to an important crisis in this debate. My worthy opponent re- 
 duced to the desperation of defeat, like a drowning man, is induced 
 to grasp at anything and to resort to abuse. But this will not sustain 
 him. He cannot now quote from Du Pin, or send his readers back to 
 the dark ages, and draw a grossly exaggerated picture of the personal 
 frailties of a few popes and then ask if there can be a drop of apostolic 
 grace in the wliole world. I have three editions of the complete 
 works of Liguori, in my library, or in this city, to refer to ; and in 
 none of them can this vile doctrine be found. Mark, then, the pro- 
 position, my friends. It is this. That priests are allowed to Iteep 
 mistresses, upon payment of a fine, but that, if they marry, they are 
 excommunicated ! 1 now call upon Cirarles Hammond, Esq. Judge 
 Hall, General Harrison, Judge Este, Judge Wright, or any other five 
 equally learned and honorable citizens of Cincinnati — for 1 only men- 
 tioned the first that came to my mind — to decide this issue of fact. 
 I pronounce the whole charge a base, unfounded assertion, and I again 
 thank Heaven, that I am in a city, where justice will be done to 
 the truth, and where falsehood will be triumphantly defeated. 
 
 The volume froui which the gentleman has been all day reading, ia 
 one of those books of abomination and falsehood ; put forth, in the 
 city of New York, by Smith, Slociim and Co. and it is a fair specimen 
 of their fashion of circulating truth. Does it not furnish strong pre- 
 fiumplion to the reflecting mind, that there nmst be something divine 
 in the religion which such men and women combine to abuse 1 It 
 was the monster Nero, notorious for parricide and lust, who first drew 
 the sword against the christian religion. Foiget not then, I pray you, 
 my friends, the proposition that is before us. I am deLcrmined not to 
 alumber or sleep on this matter, but to probe it thoroughly and ex- 
 pose its rottenness to the world. Mr. Campbell's allegation against 
 the Catholic church, is that Liguori, a standard moralist in that 
 church, teaches, that priests may keep concuhincs by payiiiix a fine, but 
 that if l/iey marry, they must be excommunicated. Whereas I dislinclly 
 deny that Liguori has ever taught any thing so aborninai)le, and that 
 all who say so, arc guilty of a most flagrant violation of the command- 
 ment of our God, whirli says " Tiiou shalt not ijear false witness 
 
 AOAINST Tirv NEIOHBOH." Exod. XX. IG. 
 
 The charge of siipprrssing the 'Jnd commandment, while proof to the 
 contrary, from the ('atholic caleehisuis every where in use in llu; U. S. 
 and from every (^'atholic bible in the world, was staring him in the face, 
 may be placed along side of the foregoing ! Add to these, the hardi-
 
 220 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 hood with which the plainest wortls of the Redeemer, the emphatic 
 declaration of St. Paul, and the hiirliesl eulogy of the Apocalypse, 
 on the superior sanctity of the unmarried state, have been violently 
 tortured by my opponent, and a fair estimate may be made of the re- 
 spect he entertains for tlie bible. Kvcn his jests are but little help to 
 his argument, for error was never genuinely witty. And wiicn he af- 
 fects to laugh at St. Paul for his liaving been a bachelor, I shall con- 
 tent myself with replying, yes ! St. Paul was a bachelor: but would 
 he not have looked well, with seven little squealing children trotting 
 after him, r/siViHic the churches of Asia ! The remark of St. Paul, 
 '• have I not a right to lead about a sister?" has reference to the prac- 
 tice then early introduced, of entrusting in some cases, the instruction 
 of females, to persons of their own sex, and to the greater facilities af- 
 forded in this respect, to the apostles and preachers of Christianity, to 
 convey the knowledge of true religion to promiscuous society, wheth- 
 er Jewish or Pagan. I consider marriage a holy, nay, a divine insti- 
 tution. I respect the sanctity of the union, and pay a Avilling tribute 
 of praise to the eminent virtue of persons engiiged in that state ; but 
 I must reason and judge with Christ and St, Paul, that if, " he who 
 marries does well, he who does not docs better." A priest assumes 
 the obligation of celibacy, at mature age, and voluntarily. God's 
 grace is sufficient for him, an it was for St. Paul, and his virtuous 
 struggles against the evil spirit, that dared to tempt even the Savior, 
 in tiie desert, and Paul, who had been rapt up even to the third hea- 
 ven, can make virtue perfect in infirmity, without the priest's being as 
 foolish as the thief, who cut olT his hands, to keep himself from steal- 
 ing. I hope however that my opponent, or his auxiliary, Smith, will 
 not be tempted to cut off his hands, for stealing from Liguori, what 
 is better to any man than trashy gold, his guod name. One word 
 more. If marriage were as pleasing in the sight of God, as celibacy, 
 why did God and St. Paul direct abstinence from marriage privileges 
 as a preparation for seasons of greater devotion 1 According to my 
 friend, should they not have commanded the contrary] 
 
 I pass, in the next place, to relics. The chair in which the signers 
 of the declaration of Independence sat, the pen with which they wrote 
 the glorious document, a bit of the wood of the tree overshadowing 
 the grave of the illustrious Washington, arc all treated with respect, 
 and sought for with avidity : shall religious memorials alone be trea- 
 ted contemptuously? What says the bciipturo. Acts. xix. 11. .Snd 
 God xoroughl by the hand af Paul more than common miracles, so that 
 even then were brought from his body to the sic/c, handkerchirfs, and aprons, 
 and the diseases departed from them, and the iviclced spirits went out if 
 them. " The woman, troubled twelve years, with an issue of blood, 
 said within herself, " if I shall touch only his garment, I shall be 
 healed," and she was healed ; and Jesus turnini^ and seeing her said: Be 
 of g(,od heart daughter, Ihi/ faith ha'h made the: whole.''^ Ev(n withut faith 
 or consciousness, there is a miraculous cure recorded in IV Kings xiii. 
 21. " .Ind Eliar.us died and they buried him. Jlnd the Rovers from 
 Moab came into the land, the same year, ^nd some that ircrt burying a 
 man, saw the Rovers and cad the buly into tht sepulchre (f Eliseus. And 
 when he had tnuclud the bones if Klizixts, the man came to life, and stood 
 upon his feet." I have no doubt that these texts have never been read, 
 or at least reflected on, by learned Protestants, like my friend, who 
 ridicule Catholics in the pious simplicity of their souls, for venerating
 
 KOHAN CATHOLIC EEUGION. 221 
 
 dead men's hones. If the corpse of a prophet who had never seen Je- 
 sus Christ, could impart such a miraculous virtue, as to resuscitate 
 the dead, why is it considered absurd to invoke the prayers of the 
 living and beatified spirit that knew and loved, and watched over the 
 Savior on earth, and that now reigns gloriously with him in heaven? 
 If Eliseus was good, was not Mary good ] If the prophet of the Sa- 
 vior had so much.power, had the mother of the Savior none'? Hav- 
 ing now disposed of celibacy and relics, I resume the subject of con- 
 fession. 
 
 I shall now proceed to vindicate the scriptural origin, the moral 
 tendency and the immense benefits conferred on society by the theory 
 and practice of the sacrament of penance, as held in the Catholic 
 church, from the weighty charges preferred against it by my oppo- 
 nent. On this subject the council of Trent, ch. vi. teaches: " the penance 
 of a christian after his fall (from the grace of baptism) is very dilferent 
 from that of baptism, and consists, not only in refraining from sins, 
 AND A DETESTATION OF THEM, namely, a contrite and humble heart, but 
 also in a sacramental confession of them, at least in desire and at a 
 proper time, and the priestly absolution ; and, likewise, in satisfac- 
 tion, by fasting, alms, prayers, and other pious exercises of a spiritual 
 life ; not, indeed, for the eternal punishment, which, together with the 
 crime, is remitted in the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament, 
 but for the temporal punishment, which ihe scripture teaches is not 
 always wholly remitted as in baptism." Such is, and ever has been, 
 the doctrine of the Catholic church, which thus ascribes the whole 
 glory of man's justification to God, through Jesus Christ, our only 
 Savior. She teaches that God alone can forgive sin, and that without 
 sincere sorrow, which induces us to detest sin more than all other 
 evils together, the words of absolution would be a mockery ; and this 
 sorrow may be called contrition, or attrition, the name matters little; 
 it must be true, interior, pretcr-natural, universal, sovereign; that is to 
 say, it rnusl come from the heart, and from a motive suggested by 
 faith ; it must extend to all sins witliout exception, and be accompa- 
 nied by a sincere resolution to sufTrr every evil, even death itself, rather 
 than offend God any more. This is the only idea of penance, as a 
 fiacrainent, inculcated by the Catholic church, and from this, it ap- 
 pears, how horrid is the guilt of our calumniators, who, when they 
 find us otherwise invulner;ible, assail us with the poisonous siiafts of 
 slander and niiHre])resentalion, preteiiding, wliii(^ tlify know full well 
 how sincerely wc rt probate the doctrine they impute to us, that the 
 pope grants licence to commit sin, and that priests forgive it for money ! 
 
 J'he power of the priests to absolve the contrite sinner, is based on 
 the texts, John xx. Mattlnw xvi. where (Christ gives the keys of hea- 
 ven to Peter, and Ch. xviii. l.'I, wlien/(c ilcchircs to all Ihe apostles, after 
 brcnthinf^ on them, and liivint^ them the Iloh/ (ihoul, " Verily I say unto 
 you, ivhutsoncr »/f ."hall bind on earth, t.hall be bound in heaven, and 
 whatsoever ye fhall liuise on earth, thall be loosrd in hraven.^^ Uy these 
 words we considir the priest vested with a ju(lifi;il i)ow( r by Jesus 
 Christ, to liind or to lo(;se from sin; and ;is this power cannot be ex- 
 ercised without a knowledge of the sinner's dispositions, especially as 
 to his sorrow for past sins, and his sincere resolution to refrain irom 
 them in future, which knowledge none but the sinner himself can 
 give, we conclude on the necessity of Racrarnental confession to tho 
 the priest, who holds tho place of Christ in tho spiriluul tribunal. 
 t2
 
 222 DEBATE ON TUB 
 
 There is no immorality in this belief; on the contrary, the most in- 
 calculable benefits have accrued from it to religion and to society. If 
 my friend say that it is impious to ascribe to man a power which be- 
 lono^s to God alone, 1 answer, that if (Jod choose to give such power 
 to man, it would be impious in man to deny such power to God, and 
 a grievous sin of disobedience, to refuse to use it. If he persist in 
 saying, that man cannot be empowered by God tp forgive sin in the 
 sacrament of penance, I will ask him, why then is man empowered 
 to forgive sin in the sacrament of baptism? I ask, why does he 
 
 Juarrcl with Catholics for employing the words — " I absolve thee 
 rom thy sins," when Episcopalians do the same] Here is the church 
 of England book of common prayer; and in it, I read as follows : 
 " When the minister visits any sick person, the latter should be moved 
 to make a fp^cial confession of his sins, if he feels his conscience troubled 
 with any wn^hit/ matter i after which confession, the priest shall absolve 
 him, if he humbly and heartily desire it, after this sort .• " Our Lord Jesus 
 Christ, who hath Iff I power to his church, to absolve all sinners who truly 
 repent and believe in him, of his great mercy, forgive thee thine offences, 
 and by his authjrily committed tome, I absolve thee from ai-l thy sins, 
 JTJ the name ff the Father, and rf the Son, and rf the Holy Ghost,'''' Amen. 
 Soon after king James I. presented to the world, in his own person, 
 the anomaly of head and member of the English church, and lord spi- 
 ritual and temporal of tlie realm, he asked his prelates at Hampton 
 court, what authority this church claimed in the article of absolution 
 
 {rom sin? (Mark — the new Peter did not know his powers !) Arch- 
 ishop Whitgift began to bamboozle him with an account of the gene- 
 ral confession and absolution in the communion service; with which 
 the king being dissatisfied, Bancroft bishop of London, fell on his knees 
 and said, "It becomes us to deal plainly witli your majesty; there is, 
 also, in the book, a more particular and personal absolution in the 
 visiting of the sick. Not only the confessions of Augsburgh, Bohemia, 
 and Saxony, retain and allow it, but also Mr. Calvin doth approve 
 both such a general and such a private cutfession and absolution,'''' " I 
 exceedingly well approve it, replied his majesty, it being an apostolical 
 and godly ordinance." Bancroft was right in quoting the Augsburgh 
 confession, for the Lutherans, the real Simon Pure of the reformation, 
 in the confession of faith, and apology for that confession, expressly 
 teach, " that absolution is no less a sacrament than baptism and the Lord's 
 supper i that particular absolution is to be retained in confession, that to 
 reject it is the error of the Novation heretics ; and that by the power of the 
 keys, sins are remitted, not only in the sight of the church, but in the sight 
 of Gc/f/." Luther himself, in his catechism, required, that the penitent in 
 confession should expressly declare that he believes ^'' the forgiveness of the 
 priest to be the forgiveness of 6'ot/." 
 
 On this topic, before taking up the voluminous evidence before me 
 for the doctrine of the Episcopalians, on this side the great water, I 
 must produce evidence, not to be contradicted by the champion of all 
 Protestantism. It is that of the redoubted Chillingworth. Treating 
 of the text, John xx. 22, 3, he asks : " Can any man be so unreason' 
 able as to imagine, that when our Savior, in so solemn a manner, having 
 first breathed upon his disciples, thereby conveying and insinuating the 
 Holy Ghost into their hearts, renewed unto them, or rather confirmed that 
 glorious commission, whereby he delegated lo them an authority of hind'
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 223 
 
 ing and loosing sins upon earth, can any one think, I sat/, so unworthily 
 of our Savior, as to esteem these words of his for no better than compli- 
 ment? Therefore, in obedience to his gracious xvill, and as I am war- 
 ranted and enjoined by my holy mother, the church nf England, {you see 
 Protestants use the style ^ holy mother church'' as well as Catholics') I be- 
 seech you that by your practice and use, you will not suffer thai commis- 
 sion which Christ hath given to his ministers, to be a vain form of words, 
 without any settse under them. When you find yourselves charged and 
 oppressed, have recourse to your spiritual physician, and freely disclose 
 the nature and malignity of your disease, .ind come not to him only 
 with such a mind as you would go to a learned man, as one that can 
 speak comfortable things to you ; but as to one that hath authority, dele- 
 gated to him from God himsef, to absolve and acquit you of your sifts. 
 If you shall do this, assure your souls, that the understanding of men, is 
 tu)i able to conceive the transport, and excess nf joy and comfort, which 
 shall accrue to that man's heart, w/io is persuaded he hath been made par- 
 taker of this blessing." 
 
 An accredited writer in the New York Churchman, of the 7th Jan. 
 one of the ablest periodicals in the United States, quotes the most 
 convincing texts from Origen, Cyprian, Basil and Gregory, under the 
 head of antiquity. 
 
 Origen (flor. A. D. 220) in Horn. 10 in Numb. 
 
 " Laicus si pecrtt, ipse siiuni iion potest auferre peccatuni, sed indigtt sa- 
 cerdole, uf possit reiiiissionrni peccatoruiii arcipere." Tiie same father, in his 
 seventh homily on Luke, " Si enini hoc fecennius et revelaverimus peccata 
 nostra, non solum Deo; sed et his, qui possunt niederi vulneribus nostris atque 
 peccatis; delebuntur peccata nostra ab eo, qui ait, ecce delebo, ut nubem, iniqui- 
 tates tuas et sicut raliglueni percata ttia." fLat. ver. ex. Taylor.) 
 
 St. Cyprian (flor. A. D. 240) in lib. de lapsis. 
 
 " Confiteantur sin^uli, (|urnso vos, (Vatres, delictum suum; dum adhuc, qui deli- 
 quit, in sacculo est, duiii admitti ejus confessio potest, dum satisfactio, et remis- 
 sio farts per sarcrdotes apud Dominiim g;rata est." 
 
 St. Basil (flor. A. D. 3G0) in Rogul. explic. et Reg. Brev.; 228. 
 
 St. Gregory M. (flor. A. D. 590) in horn. 26 in Octav. Pascho. 
 
 " (,'aui'C pensaiida- sunt, et cum lipandi atijue itolvetidi pot«stas exerrenda, vl- 
 dendum est, qux culpa ante, qu;e sit prpiiitentia sequiita, post culpam; ut quos 
 omnipotent iJeus percompuortionis^ratinm \ iv illcat, illos pastoris sciiteiitinabsol- 
 Tat : tunc enim vera est absolutio pnrsidentis cum etf'riii arbitrium sequiturjudicis." 
 
 '• When Si. James exhorts all cliristiatis ' to confess tlieir sins to one another,' 
 Certamiy it is mor(^ agreeable to all spiritual ends, that this be done rather to 
 the curate of souls, than to the ordinary brethren. 'I'he church of K.noland is 
 no way engaged against it, but admires it and practises it. The C'alvinist c:hurch- 
 «• did not practise it much, because they knew not well how to divest it from 
 its evil appendages, which are put to it by the customs of the world, and to 
 which it is too muidi expoied by the interests, weakn«'sses, and parlialities of 
 men. But they commendinc it, shew thev would use it williii(;ly, if Iheycould 
 orrler it unto edification. " Interim f|uin sistant se paslori tjves, ipioties sacrnni 
 Cfrnnm pnrlicipnre volunt,ndeo non rei'lanio,ut maxime velim hoc iibifpie obser- 
 vari." Calvin. In«titut. liber, iii. c. A. Sec. 12, lU. And for the Lutheran 
 churches, that it is their praclirp, we may see in Cheniinllos, '1. part, (Jan. 
 Cone. Trid. f?Bp. 'i. (\p. I'd-nil.whn is noted tf> this purpose liy Hellnrniine ; only 
 they all consent fhow very consistently) that it is not necessary, nor of divine 
 inititution." Jeremy Taylor of auricular confession. 
 
 " For Ihty who are tpnllrd willi sins, unleis thry be cured icilh the priestly 
 authority, rnnnol he in the hoiom >f (he church," said Fahianus Martyr (cilea 
 by Taylor.)
 
 224 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Translation of the abore extracts from the Latin fathers. 
 ■ (1) If a layman sin, he cannot liiinscll" take away his sin, but has need of a pYieit, that ho 
 may obtain the remission of his sins. 
 
 (•i) For if we do this, and rovful ourselves not only to God, but to those who can heal 
 our wounds and sins, our sins will be blotted out by him, who says : " Behold, I will take 
 away your iniquities as n rb)ud, and your sins as darkness." 
 
 (3) 1 beseech you, brethren, lot each one confess his siijs, while he who has sinned la yet 
 in life, while his confession may be admitted, while the satisfaction and remission made by 
 the priests is ratified with God. 
 
 (4) II behovelh each subject to conceal no passion of his soul, but to reveal the hidden 
 things of hi.* lieurt to those entrusted with the care of the infirm. 
 
 f5i The causes are to bo wi-i;.'hcd, and when tlie power of loosing and binding is to be 
 exercised, we must see what cause preceded, and what penance has followed the fault, that 
 the sentence of the pastor may ab!>olve those whom the Omnipotent God, by the grace of 
 compunction, enlivens: for then the absolution of the minister is correct, when he follow! 
 the decree of the eternal Judge. 
 
 [For English divines, see close oflastVpeech of Saturday, January 21.] 
 
 THURSDAY, January 19th, Half-past 9 J. M. 
 
 The 3th Proposition being read — 
 
 " She is the Babylon of John, tlie Man of Sin of Paul, and the Empire of the 
 Youngest Horn of'Daniel's Sea Monster," 
 Mr. Campbell rose and said : 
 
 I could have wished, my fellow citizens, that this proposition had 
 been nearer the close of this discussion. But as my nine propositions 
 were first arranged as themes for lectures, rather than as propositions 
 for debate; I could not materially alter either the verbiage or order, af- 
 ter I had been invited to discuss them with my present opponent. 
 "Without further ceremony, I proceed to sustain the proposition. 
 
 I am not insensible of the difficulties and objections we have to eiw 
 counter, when we presume; to prove any thing from the figurative and 
 symbolic language of prophecy. The difficulties are not, however, so • 
 great as at first view may appear. Symbols are exempt from some of 
 the objections lying against literal descriptions—7%fj/7»ee</ no /rans/a/ion. 
 Sun, rnoon, and stars speak the same sublime language to every eye, 
 and suggest the same devout and lofty emotions to every beart. A 
 lion, a leopard, a bear, — an earthquake, a tempest, a swelling sea, are 
 types of the same ideas, and call forth the same thrilling sensations in 
 every spectator. Hence tlie wisdom in selecting appropriate symbols 
 of the persons and scenes which fill up the great drama of human exis- 
 tence, and diversify the prophelic chart, which the revealing Spirit 
 holds up to the eye of the diligent and faithful student of the word and 
 providence of God. 
 
 But, as on a globe of 13 inches diameter, the earth with all its oceans 
 and continents, its mountains and valleys, its lakes and islands, cities 
 and districts, can be displayed in the proper positions and relative sizes 
 of all its parts, and in an instant presented to the eye; so in a symbol, 
 can be grouped together all the grand characteristics of a people or an 
 event, and so accurately and comprehensively, that by a single glance 
 of the eye more can be learned than from tjie perusal of a volume. 
 
 This is, indeed, an advantage which figurative representation has 
 over that which is purely literal and descriptive. By a glance of the 
 eye on a globe, or a map, one can have a better idea of a country, or 
 of the earth, than from the reading of volumes; so by considering a 
 symbolic representation, we may acquire a more vivid and compre- 
 hensive view of a subject than by the perusal of many pages.
 
 ROMAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 225 
 
 TTiere is but one eye in the universe that pierces all nature throuph; 
 to which the past, the present, and the future are equally plain. God 
 alone knows the future. He has revealed it. In the seventh chapter 
 of Daniel, now lyino^ hefore me, we have one great meridian line, which 
 runs from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth, and from the reign 
 of Nebuchadnezzar, the proudest of Assyrian kings, to the ultimate 
 triumph of the Gospel througiiout the whole earth. 
 
 We shall rapidly sketch the contents ofthis chapter, which embraces 
 more of human destiny than can be gleaned from all human records. 
 Daniel is in vision translated to the Mediterranean — the great sea — 
 symbol of people in commotion ; as the earth is of the people at rest. 
 There can be no more appropriate or striking picture of human society 
 than the sea. Sometimes it is iranqu'l and smooth as oil, like a splen- 
 did mirror reflecting the azure vault of heaven: anon it is ruffled by 
 a gentle breeze that ripples softly on its bosom: again, it swells and 
 foams and rages in huge mouatain waves that strike with a sublime 
 awe the eye of every beholder. So the people who, to day are all in 
 peace and amity in the smooth current of their daily avocations, by some 
 evil wind or passion are swollen into some mob, or tumult, or tre- 
 mendous conflict, which for a moment rends the social compact, 
 destroys all confidence, and jeopardizes the best interests of all. Thus 
 in the symbol now before us ; — the winds, the passions of men, are in 
 some great tumult. They strive upon the great sea. Four terrific and 
 appalling savage monsters in quick succession rise. 
 
 They were all sea monsters, for God's symbol of a tyrannical gov- 
 ernment has always been a savage wild beast. The first was like a 
 lion with eagle's wings— the fortunes of this eagle-winged lion com- 
 ing out of a tempestuous sea, fitly symbolized Assyria in its rise, glo- 
 ry, and decline, after the dynasties of more than fourteen hundred years. 
 
 The savage beast, like to a bear, raising itself on one side, standing 
 •with three ribs in its mouth, viz. Babylon, Lydia and Egypt, represents, 
 because of its rapacity and cruelty, the empire of the Medes and Per- 
 sians. This rose from the sea which overwhelmed the Assyrian pow- 
 er: and it continued for two hundred years. 
 
 A leopard-like monster, with four heads and four wings upon its 
 back, indicates the rapid conquests of Alexander. His short-lived 
 empire often years, reared upon the ruins of the Medo-Persian, and 
 spotted with various nations, final iy partitioned among his own four 
 principal generals, is mo«i appositely represented by the symbol of the 
 sixth verse. 
 
 But a fourth beast, dreadful and teriiblf, and strong exceedingly, 
 having grt*at iron teeth : which devoured and brake in pieces, and 
 stamped the residue with the feet of it, diverse from all the beasts 
 that were before it, liaving tru fiorrt.t, portrays the Roman empire in 
 those fortunes connpcUMJ with the principal figure in the group. In- 
 terpreters are as much agreed about the import of these symbols as are 
 lexicographers in defining the orilinary words of human speerli. For, 
 although they may difl'er about ibf time when, or tlic! place where, one 
 of these symbols may rise, or fall, there is scarcely any controversy on 
 the symbols themselves, or subjects lo which lliey refer. 
 
 Hut the principal figure in these four inonsiers remains yet 
 to be described. " I considered," says the prophet, " and, behald, 
 there came up among them (rather, "behind them" and unobserv- 
 ed) another little horn, befnre which, three of the first horns 
 
 29
 
 22lJ DKBATi: ON THE 
 
 were plucked up by the roots." Horns, as defined by the Spirit, mean 
 kiiiffs or kiiifjdoms. The Roman empire was first partitioned between 
 ten kinfTs or states, after the irruption of the northern barbarians. — 
 Pepin, the king of France, pave to a pope of Rome one horn, viz. the 
 exarchate of Ravenna, ('harlemagne gave to Peter's successor the 
 kingdom of the Lombards — the second horn; and l,ewis the J' ious con- 
 firmed to the Pope the Stale of Home, a third horn of the original ten. 
 Tims, before the little horn became very conspicuous, three horns made 
 room for it, and it occupied their places. 
 
 But the f/rtrn/A Aorn is particularly described in the VFords following, 
 to wit: " In this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and it had a 
 mouth speaking great things." Here we have a horn, a government, 
 full of eyes, — sagacious, politic, cunning : and eloquent, persuasive, 
 boastful, rhetorical, for such are the chief attributes of the horn full of 
 eyes, having a mouth, &c. The identification of this horn is the grand 
 point before us. We shall, therefore, hastily seek out its distinguish- 
 ing^attribules. 
 
 By reading the chapter with, now and then, the interposition of a 
 word, we shall see that the peculiarities of the little horn are clearly 
 and definitely marked. 
 
 " I beheld," says Daniel, "I contemplated the horns till the thrones 
 were cast down (rather set up : as in the Vulgate, positi sunt,) and the 
 Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the 
 hair of his head like the pure wool, his throne was like the fiery flame, 
 and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth 
 from before him, thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thou- 
 sand times ten thousand stood before him, the judgment was set and 
 the books were opened. I beheld then, because of the voice of the 
 great words which the horn spake, I beheld till the beast was slain 
 and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame." Mark, the 
 entire and complete destruction of the beast of the /t/^/e Aorn is as- 
 signed to his arrogance and blasphemy, — because of the words which 
 he spake against God and his saints. The other beasts simply lost 
 their dominion, but their lives were spared. " As concerning the oth- 
 er beasts, they had their dominion taken away, but their lives were 
 prolonged." So ends the general statement concerning the whole, and 
 the broken, and the restored, empire of the fourth beast. 
 
 But to proceed to the second part of the vision. " I saw," &c. 
 " One like a Son of man — (bar-enosh) came with the clouds of hea- 
 ven, and came to the Ancient if days, and they brought him near before 
 him, and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, 
 that all people, nations, and languages should serve him ; his dominion 
 is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his king- 
 dom that which shall not be destroyed. I asked the meaning of all this, 
 60 he told me and made me understand the interpretation of the things." 
 
 We have now an interpretation authorized and confirmed. "These great 
 beasts which are four, are four kings which shall arise out of the earth. 
 But the saints of the Most High shall take (receive) the kingdom, 
 and possess the kingdom for ever — even for ever and ever." "Then 
 I would know the truth (meaning) of the fourth beast (empire,) 
 and of the ten horns ; and of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that 
 spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows." 
 The interpreting angel then explains this portion of the vision. " The
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 227 
 
 fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom." (King and kingdom are 
 sometimes used interchangeably.) There never were but four great 
 universal empires on earth, and there never will be another, except that 
 of the Messiah. — His universal empire will be the fifth. The fourth 
 beast " shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down and break 
 it in pieces." — So did the Roman empire. And the ten horns are ten 
 kings (or kingdoms) which shall arise out of this empire or kingdom ; 
 and another (the little horn) shall arise after them. And he shall 
 be DIVERSE (not merely political) from the first (ten) and he shall sub- 
 due three kings ; not only shall three of the kings give place to 
 him, — hut he shall destroy the antagonist power of the three empires 
 that preceded his. '* He shall speak great words against the 
 Most High, and shall luear out the saints of the Most High, and 
 think to change times and laws. — (These three never met in any beings 
 save the popes of Rome.) And they shall be given into his hand un- 
 til a time, and times, and tiie dividing of a time." 
 
 A time is one annual revolution ; a times, two ; and half a time, 
 half a year; in aW, forty-two monihs ; or one thousand two hundred 
 and three score daj's, — the product of forty-two thirties ; or forty-two 
 Jewish months. Of all this, and of one day being given for a year, 
 there is no controversy among Catholics or Protestants. Tlie continu- 
 ance of the empire of the little horn is therefore predestined to twelve 
 hundred and sixty years. 
 
 But the judgment shall sit. The long prayed for and expected judg- 
 ment sliall be given in favor of the saints. Then shall be taken away 
 his dominion to consume and to destroy it unto the end or consumma- 
 tion. "Then" with anticipated triumph be ii spoken — "the kingdom 
 and dominion and the greatness of the kingdom, under the whole 
 heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, — 
 (They were not all worn out by the Little Horn) whose kingdom is an 
 everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." 
 Hitherto is the end of the matter. 
 
 Now of all these items the sum is — 
 
 1. It is a beast, or empire, or power, that grew out of the Roman beast. 
 
 2. It rose after tlie empire was divided into ttn kingdoms. 
 
 3. It was a new and different power, sagacious and politic — witli 
 human eyes — an eloquent, persuasive, and denunciatory power. 
 
 4. It supplanted and displaced three of the original states of the 
 Roman empire or of the ten kingdotus into which it was at first divided. 
 
 5. It assumed more than any other empire. It uttered great things 
 and its look was more stout (daring) than its fellows. 
 
 6. It made war not against sinners, like other empires — it made war 
 against nainlii. 
 
 7. It prevailed for a long time against them. It " juore out the saints." 
 
 8. It presumed to change times and laws. How many fasts, and 
 feasts, and saints, and new laws, and institutions has this power set up ! 
 
 9. It had power to hold in subjection all saints, and to lord it over 
 them for a long lime. 
 
 10. It was to be consumed, prradually wasted as the Protestant Re- 
 formation has been wasting its power and substance for three centuries 
 — and is yvX finally, suddenly and completely to be destroyed. Can 
 my learned opponent find ail these characteristics and circumstances in 
 any other power or empire ia the history of all time ! I trust ho will
 
 228 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 give m.^ an opportunity to expatiate on these points and to defend them 
 more fully. 
 
 Meantime, to excite attention, I positively affirm that these items 
 never met in any Kinfr, Kintrdom, State or Empire, save that of Papal 
 Rome. There, and there only, can they all be found as large as life ; 
 and as exact as answers the image in the mirror to the face. 
 
 But I hasten to identify this prediction with the Babylon of John. 
 And in doing this I can at present but sketch the rudest outline. Let 
 us open the 13th chapter. 
 
 John stands in vision on the shore of the great sea, the Mediterrane- 
 an. He saw a savage beast rising out of the sea. It had seven heads 
 and ten horns, and on its heads the names of blasphemy. — It resembled 
 the lion, the bear, and Ihe leopard. It was composed of all that 13 
 savage. The dragon, the serpent of my opponent, Pagan Rome gave 
 him his power and his throne, and great authority. — How much does 
 this resemble the vision of Daniel ! This seven headed Empire with 
 ten horns — It is on this beast the woman sat— subsequently pictured 
 out as Babylon the Great. This is tiie Latin Empire which sustained 
 the Latin church. This is the beast out of which the Little Horn grew. 
 
 'I'he wounded head or the imprria/, which was the sixth head, was 
 healed by the great Charles, and his new empire controlled by the ec- 
 clesiastic beast, spoke blasphemies and daring things against God, his 
 name, and all that dwell in heaven. This new religious and political 
 Empire "made war ag<iinsl the saints and overcame them." "And itcon- 
 tinued inrforty-lu-o months" "a time, and times and a dividing of time." 
 
 His dominion extended over all the western Roman Empire. But 
 next comes the Litl/e Horr. — the ecclesiastical beast. — In John's vision 
 this beast resembles a lamb, but it speaks like a drairnn ! Christian 
 Rome spoke like Pagan Rome ! It obliged all ihe earth to worship the 
 dragon — It was ('uthoHcl ! It made an image of the Pagan beast. It 
 gave life to this image, and compelled all to die or worship the image 
 of the Pagan beast. It was then a bloody persecuting beast. It was 
 idolatrous as Pagan Rome. But instead of worshiping dead heroes 
 it worships dead saints — instead of Goddesses it has Lordesses ; angels 
 instead of demi-gods. — 
 
 Indeed Papal Rome has borrowed much from Pagan Rome — Old 
 Rome had her ponlifex maximus, her purgatory, priests and priestesses, 
 her victims and " hosts.'''' She had her lustral water as modern Rome 
 has her holy water. She had her vestal virgins as her descendant has 
 her nuns. She had her Pantheon as modern Rome has her Vatican, 
 and in the niches where stood the gods of the dragon now stand the 
 saints of the Roman Draconic lamb. 
 
 My present argument requires me to identify this beast with the 
 Roman church or with the Little Horn. — And therefore in addition to 
 the resembling attributes already traced I proceed to the most definite 
 of its marks. " Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding 
 compute the number of the beast : for it is the number of a man, and 
 his number is six hundred and sixty six." — 
 
 The ecclesiastic beast, or kingdom is thus definitely the letters of a 
 name which together make GG6. The name of a man is the name of 
 this kingdom. Now we begin with a Roman saint — even with the 
 great Irenaus. We shall find in the name of the king and founder of 
 the Latin empire the name of this prophetic personage — It is said by
 
 BOJIAN CATHOUC HELIOIO!?. 229 
 
 the $aint that among the Greeks the king's name was written Lateinoi 
 
 the letters of which being numerals in that language exactly make the 
 
 sum : for a 30 
 
 •• 1 
 
 T 300 
 
 • 5 
 10 
 
 V SO 
 
 • 70 
 ( 000 
 
 066 
 
 He made the name of the founder stand for the name of the empire. 
 But Bellarmine, a learned Jesuit, objects to this — that in the language 
 and at ihe time the Revelation was written the orthography of this name 
 was AaT/rif, and not Aart/v:?. And this being so there is a plausible, nay a 
 relevant objection aginst the interpretation of Irenaeus. We pause not 
 to examine this matter; because we find a much more consistent and 
 convincing exposition in the true and proper name of the Institution 
 which in Greek was always written in full. 
 
 HA»Tii.i|2»,'>.i'». The Lalin Kingdom. H=8, A=30. «=1, t==300, i=10, .==50, 
 ,=_8. 3=2, «=1, «=200. -=10, /.=30, i==5, .=10, »=1 : The sum, 666. 
 
 The conclusion from these premises is, that as there is no other king- 
 dom on earth whose name is exactly 666- — and as the beast, the symbol 
 of this kingdom, has been proved to be the Latin empire, and He La- 
 tine Basi/eia, being proved to contain C66, this definitely and clearly 
 marks out the Roman Institution as that to which the 13th chapter of 
 the apocalypse and the Tih chapter of Daniel refer. 
 
 The only question of apparent difficulty that can be here asked, is : 
 — Whether Rome Pagan or Rome Papal is intended : for that Rome 
 is intended cannot be questioned. That it is Rome Papal is evident 
 from the fact that what is called the second Beast, chap. 1 3, verse 12, is, 
 chap. 16 and 20, called the false prophet — and this is the beast whose 
 name is given as numericaly equivalent to 666. 
 
 This moreover explains that love of Lalin which to this day distin- 
 guishes this party. They not only have long gloried in the name lio- 
 man or Lalin Catholic or Church of /iomr, but they still say mass in 
 Latin, and perform their religious services in that dead language ; for 
 although I'aul '• had rather speak five sentences in the vernacular, than 
 ten thousand sentences in an unknown tongue" — that lie might edify 
 his hearers, — and although in the age of the " primitive Fathers" the 
 whole chufch prayed and taught in the language of every country 
 where they worshiped ; still for tlic sake of Latin, to this day and even 
 in this country, Fiomanists pcrforni th( ir most devout services in that 
 dead and foreign tongue as though God himself preferred that language 
 to every other. Thus they are providentially bearing to ail nations and 
 languages the grand mark, and the number of ihe name which identifies 
 them as the beast and nabyl"n of .John. 
 
 To return to the iiiiHircry of the Proj)het .Tohn : — In the ITlh chapter 
 this ecclesiastic establishment is coinpiired to a great harlot, with whom 
 the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and as having intox- 
 icated all the inhabitants of the earth with the wine of her whoredom. 
 The woman is further identified by being described as siitin^r upon a 
 tcarlet brnsl, fuW of blaspheinous names, having nivn /irada and ten 
 harm; and she is adorned with purple and scarlet, with gold, and dia- 
 monds, and pearls ; having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomi- 
 nation and pollution of her wlioredoms. She had upon iier forehead her
 
 230 DEBATE ON TnE 
 
 Dame written :—" Mystkky, Babylon the Great, the Mother of 
 Harlots, and of thk abominations of the Earth." And to make 
 the matter more certain, tlie Spirit testifies, verse 18 : "Tiie woman 
 whicli you saw is the great city (spiritually called Babylon, literally, 
 Papal Uomc) that rules over the kings of the earth." 
 
 Having thus connected these symbols, and seen the co-adaptation to 
 the same" subject we shall here introduce the Apostle Paul with his 
 plain and unfigurative description of the Man of Sin, 2d chap. 2d Thes- 
 salonians, and"examine the congruity of his description with the sym- 
 bols of Daniel and John. He may be regarded as the literal interpre- 
 ter of them both. 
 
 " Let no man deceive you by any means : for that day shall not come, 
 except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, 
 the son of perdition ; who opposelh and exalteth himself above all that 
 is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the 
 temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, 
 that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things 1 And now ye 
 know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For 
 the mystery of iniquity doth already work ; only he who now letteth 
 will let, until he be taken ouiof the way. And then shall that Wick- 
 ed be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his 
 mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even 
 him, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all powers, and 
 signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteous- 
 ne'ss in them that perish ; because they received not the love of the 
 truth, that they might be saved." Verses 3 — 10. 
 
 The Apostle foretells ^n apostacy {■& falling away) in the Church; 
 which apostacy would issue in the full revelation or manifestation of 
 THE Man of Sin, (or of idolairy, for this is the sin of Jews and Gen- 
 tiles.) The Man tif Sin is again designated as the Son of Perdition. 
 He was the subject of past prophecy as Judas was; for on that account 
 he too was called the Son of Perdition — foredoomed to ruin. The names 
 o{ Man of Sin and Son of ruin, fitly represent this apostacy. The at- 
 tributes and circumstances peculiar to this passage are the following. 
 
 1. He was to come forward stealthily by degrees and unobserved, 
 (like Daniel's Little Horn, to grow up behind the others) " The secret, 
 or mystery of iniquity already inwardly works." 
 
 2. He could not be revealed till " He who restrains or lets (the Pa- 
 gan power) be taken out of the way." Political power as well as ec- 
 clesiastic was necessary to his development. So the Little Horn 
 did not appear conspicuous till after the ten horns grew out of the 
 fourth beast. The Man of Sin is, in historic truth, the youngest horn 
 that sprung from the Pagan beast. 
 
 3. He was to exalt himself above all that is called a God, or an 
 object of worship. My learned opponent will agree with me that God 
 here may mean, as sometimes it does in the Bible, a magistrate or king. 
 And certainly not only in the arrogant titles which he assumes, but 
 in the dispensations which he has granted, in respect to laws 
 divine and human, no magistrate, king, or potentate, ever claim- 
 ed so much on earth as the Man of Sin, as the Popes of Rome 
 He is not only styled " Universal Father," " Holy Father," " His 
 Holiness," "Sovereign Pontiff," "Supreme Head of the Church 
 on Earth," " Pater Familias," " Successor of Peter," " Prince of the
 
 RO?I_\.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 231 
 
 Apostles," "Infallible One," "Vicar of Christ," "Lieutenant of 
 Christ," " Prince of the World ;" but he is styled, still more blasphe- 
 mously, " Lord of Lords," a god on earth, " Lord God the Pope." 
 
 4. He places himself " in the temple of God." This ascertains the 
 Man of Sin more specifically than any other attribute or circumstance in 
 the passage. He is no Pagan idolater ; he is no infidel Jew ; he is no 
 author of a new religion ; but he sits in the Church of Jesus Christ — 
 God's building — God's temple — holding the fundamental truths of re- 
 ligion, as did this community when the Man of Sin invaded the 
 Church ; for, yet, the great fads of Christianity are acknowledged by 
 the Church of Rome, though ^^ made (f no fffect by her traditions." 
 
 5. He exhibits or " shows himself to be a god." He claims to 
 reign not only for Christ as his vicar, but the homage due to a repre- 
 sentative of God he haughtily appropriates to himself. Such is the 
 
 Erediction of the. man of sin ; and who that is conversant with the 
 istory of the popes of Rome, from their coronation, standing on the 
 altar in St. Peter's church, receiving the title of God's vicegerent, 
 assuming the honors of the supreme head of the whole church ; pow- 
 er over the angels of heaven, over the inhabitants of Hades, and over 
 the laws and statutes of the bible, can think that Paul exaggerates the 
 picture by saying that this son of perdition, and man of sin, was to 
 pass himself off, was to '■'■show himself as a God.'''' 
 
 6. He is called the lawless one ; verse 8, " the wicked 07ic.^^ So Da- 
 niel's little horn is represented as " changing (or seeking to change) the 
 times and the laws." Instances of such dispensations and indulgences 
 could be multiplied, ad lihitum, demonstrative that such have always 
 been the professions and assumptions of the " Princes of iheJposllcs.''^ 
 
 7. But another incident in the history of the decline of the man of 
 sin deserves our attention, and singularly identifies him with the em- 
 pire of the little horn. " Whom the Lord shall consume Tor slay) by 
 the spirit of his mouth, and destroy by the brightness of his coming." 
 And of the dominion of the little horn, says Daniel: "They shall 
 consume and destroy it to the end." Paul seems to have quoted the 
 very words of Daniel, and thus most unquestionably identified the 
 7nan of sin and little horn as designating the same apostacy from 
 Christ and his religion. 
 
 8. In describing the coming of this man of sin, Ik; is compared to 
 the deceptions, assiunptions, and approaches of Satan, who has often 
 assumed a divine mission or tlie power of miracles. So the Roman 
 church has ever pretendt-d to the power of working miracles, and has 
 gained and still ri'tains mueii power by false signs and lying wonders. 
 
 Of this apostacy, and of the rise and progress of this man of sin, 
 as described by Paul, we may mark his growth and progress in full 
 agreement with the records of authentic^ history in the following order 
 and style: — He was an eiul)ryo in Paul's time. ('I'lie mystery of in- 
 iquity doth airt'ady inwardly work). He was an infant in the lime of 
 \ ictor ]., 195. lie was a bold and daring lad in the time of (^onstan- 
 tine the (Jreat. A sturdy stripling in tin? days of Leo I., when au- 
 ricular confession came in. He was nineteen years old in the days 
 of Justinian's code ; and a young man full twenty-one, when Moni- 
 face ML receiveil from Phocas the title of I'niversal Patriareh or 
 Pope, A. I). (iOti. Hi- was twenty-five when P<pin and Cliarl'tnagno 
 gave him political power and glory, A. I). 7<i() : and at full prime, or 
 at thirty-five, when (iregory the Great took the crown from tlie empe-
 
 232 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 peror Hrnn'^ and gave it to Riulolpluis. He had reached his grand cli- 
 macteric ill the days of WicklitV, a"d Luther gave him a mortal thrust., 
 which introduced into his system that chronic consumption under which 
 he has ever since lingered. But it remains for John the apostle, and last 
 prophet of the church, to declare his last agony and final overthrow. 
 
 Ar. we have no time more than to sketch the naked outline, we 
 shall hasten to the consummation, as respects the Babylon of John, 
 60 exactly identified with the subject before iis. In his apocalyptic 
 developments, 18th chapter, he declares her final doom. My propo- 
 sition carries in it the indication of a monster. She is the Man of 
 Sin ! Babylon the Great — a city, a beast, a u'oman, a state, a persecu- 
 ting poioer ; scarlet, purple, drunken with the blond of the saints, loiih 
 the blood of the inartyrs of Jesus ! ! Mystfrv ! By mystery she rose, 
 she reigns ; — her mystery of purgatory, transubstantiation, relics, mi- 
 racles, signs, sacraments, and unfathomable doctrines, have given her 
 power: for, says Paul, (2d Thess. ii.) describing the advances of this 
 son of ruin, and lawless one, " His coming is according to the ope- 
 ration of Satan, in all power and lying wonders." — Douay Testament. 
 
 Babylon, the ancient capital of Chaldea, great as it was, was but 
 the type. Her antitype is the spiritual city. This city sits upon the 
 seven mountains of the "//o/y Roman Empire,'''' which the heirs of 
 Pepin erected. For thus did they blasphemously designate the 
 new empire erected out of the seven grand electorates of Germany ; 
 the seven heads of that empire which sustained the assumptions of 
 the papal see. 
 
 But we have now to do with her overthrow. The means of her decay 
 are, first, the spirit of the Lord's mouth. The reading, preaching, and 
 circulating of the Bible. The second is the hatred of the ten horns ; "For 
 the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the 
 whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh 
 and burn her with fire." Pltsh is the symbol of riches. And riches 
 she has had beyond comparison. It is said, that in two churches in 
 Spain, some fifty years since, there were more gold and silver, in 
 saints, apostles, and angels, than the richest sovereign in Europe was 
 worth. Her real and personal estate has never yet been valued. But 
 the political powers shall get tired of the cupidity and insatiable ap- 
 petite of this monster, and shall plunder her resources and confiscate 
 her estate, as in France and England, and thus shall her ruin com- 
 mence. But at the moment when judgment shall be given in favor 
 of the saints of the Most High, — when the hour of her destruction 
 has come suddenly and in an instant, as when an angel hurls a mill- 
 stone into the sea, shall Home with all her glory be swallowed down, 
 and engulphed iu immediate and eternal ruin. We do expect in the 
 final catastrophe of Papal Rome a combination and concentration of 
 Almighty wrath. The vials of God's fiercest anger await her. The 
 Plagues of Egypt, Sodom, and Jerusalem arc in store for the Son 
 of Perdition. In the battle of Armageddon, blood shall flow for 
 1600 furlongs, to the bits of the horses' bridles. It is remarkable, 
 that this IGOO furlongs make exactly the whole extent of the State of 
 Rome, which the popes have so long held. From the Tiber to the 
 Po is just 200 miles or KJOO furlongs. Still the last act of this ap- 
 palling drama will be short. The artillery of Heaven's vengeance 
 shall burst upon her in a moment; for Omnipotence has a long con- 
 troversy against her for her evil deeds. I have only time to add, that
 
 EO>LVN CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 233 
 
 all things said by Daniel, Paul, and John perfectly harmonize in the 
 suddenness and completeness of her destruction. However gradual, 
 for a time, the consumption and decay of her strength and glory, she 
 will die a violent death ; for ail the witnesses attest that a sudden and 
 overwhelming destruction awaits her. 
 
 But amid the tremendous daricness of this dread hour, the bright 
 and morning star of Israel appears : for as soon as the flying angel, 
 as it flits across the heavens, announces in words of everlasting joy, 
 that the hour cf her judgment has come, the angel in his rear, atten- 
 dant on his flight, shouts triumphantly from east to west: " It is fal- 
 len! It is fallen ! Babylon the great is fallen!" Then shall there be 
 "voices and thunders, and lightnings, and the imiversal earthquake 
 which shall bring the cities of the Gentiles to the dust." Then will 
 be the time when a voice from heaven exultingly shall say : " Re- 
 joice over her, ye holy apostles and prophets; for God has avenged 
 you on her ! Then the immense multitude of saints, — the martyred 
 millions in heaven shall say: Hallelujah! Salvation, and glory, and 
 power to the Lord our God : for his judgments are true and righteous : 
 for he has judged Uie great harlot, who corrupted the earth with her 
 fornication, and he has avenged the blood of his servants shed by her 
 hand ! And a second time they said, Hallelujah ! and the smoke of 
 her torment ascended forever and ever!" 
 
 Then, indeed, shall the kingdoms of the whole earth become the 
 kingdoms of the Lord, and of his anointed. Then the cause, so long 
 oppressed, shall universally triumph : for ages of prosperity and joy 
 are yet to crown the labors cf Messiah; and untold millions, the 
 trophies of his mediation are 3'et to gladden heaven and earth Ly their 
 cheerful submission to his authority, who shall then be acknowledged 
 the rightful Kins^ of kings and Lord of lords. 
 
 Such a catastrophe is even feared at Rome itself. The popes have 
 uttered it abroad ; they have proclaimed to the world that they felt St. 
 Peter's chair tremble under them ; — that the throne of the prince of 
 the apostles now totters to its fall. In dolorous strains they lament in 
 their encyclical letters the prevalence of liberal (with them infide!) 
 
 firinciples. Kven in Italy and in Spain the sovereiprn jiontifl' observes 
 ndicatione of the spirit of the arre. Free discussion, the liberty of 
 the press, or even a whisper about free government, in the environs 
 of Home, grievously afllicts him. It has been said by the most intel- 
 licrent in the internal affairs of Roman C'alhoHc countries, that it 
 would not be the most unexpected event if the present incumbent of 
 the Papal chair should be the last of the popes of Rome. 
 
 Public opinion is fast changing even in those countries, and there 
 is an under-current which, like a subterraneous fire, is liiiuifying the 
 foundations of the hills and mountains on which this proud super- 
 structure rears its aspiring head, 'i'he pope is looking abroad, per- 
 haps to the "mountaifis of the moon," or to the great vallr-y, as to a 
 wilderness, in which there may be an asylum reared for him in such 
 a contingency as miffht drive him from the Kternal city. Who knows 
 but that the ecclesiastic politics of lioman Catholic Knrope have 
 aided the tide f»f emigration prrispeciively, on the rhances that are to 
 decide the fortunes ol the liierareby in llie Old World. 
 
 Hut th(! destinies of western l{orne, the theatre of the prophecies 
 before us, exhaust the symbols of these predictions. The fortunes 
 of our country and of the I'apacy here, belong to another chapter.
 
 234 DEBATE 0>- THD 
 
 Whether it shall simultaneously fall iu the New world, or shall seek 
 here to recruit its shattered interests, and seek to found a great Ame- 
 rican Roman Catholic hierarchy, is a question of grave import, 
 which it is not my province to examine. 
 
 JSuch, however, are its oritrin, its history, and its doom in the Old 
 world, as sketched by the finger of God. And the history of Eu- 
 rope, for twelve hundred and thirty years, proves, beyond a reasonable 
 doubt, that Daniel, Paul, and John spake as they were moved by the 
 Holy Spirit. 
 
 I cannot sit down without an apology for the rudeness of this great 
 outline. It would require hours to fill up the map which I have laid 
 before you. I have endeavored only to establish the grand landmarks, 
 and point out the bearings of prophecy upon this institution. In hopes 
 that my learned opponent will give me an opportunity to fortify the 
 weak points, and to illustrate the obscure, I give place ; having, as I 
 judge, redeemed the pledge which I tendered in my fourth proposition : 
 for in the history of all time, no person will ever find any one sub- 
 je t in which so many — nay, all the grand characteristics of this 
 prophetic tyranny, so clearly, literally, and harmoniously meet as in 
 Papal Rome. On this point I challenge special investigation. — [Time 
 expired, plus minutes.] 
 
 Half past 10 o^olock, A. M. ^ 
 Bishop Purcell lisi s — 
 
 Before I take review of my friend's last speech, I wish to complete 
 my previous one. I was speaking on the subject of auricular and pri- 
 vate confession, when I was last up, and endeavoring to prove that it 
 was a practice not contrary to scripture, nor immoral. I have, in proof 
 of this position, quoted authorities from scripture, from the ancient re- 
 cords of the Catholic church, and from the divines and practice of the 
 Knglish church. I now add to them, a quotation from the discipline 
 of the Methodist church, edition of 1B.'{5, New-York. And, to show 
 that every argument addressed to yon by my friend, falls with as great 
 force, nay greater, on Protestants, I will read the following extract, 
 (p. 84.) You will observe, my friends, that I do not arraign the Me- 
 thodists, as immoral, or quote their discipline from insidious motives ; 
 but, to show that our practice is itnitated in a way, by which it is not 
 improved, but liable to great abuse ; and that every thing that is said 
 against us, may be said against others. 
 
 Section III. — "C/'"'« Band Societies. " Two, three or four true believers, who 
 have confitled in ca.;h other, form a band. — Only it is to be observed, that in one of 
 thf5eban;!s, all must be men, or all women; and all n)arried or all unmarried." p. 83. 
 " Riilfs of lite Band Societies." "The design of our meeting i^ to obey that 
 command of God, Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, 
 that ye may be healed." James, v. 16. 
 
 " Some of the questions proposed to one, before he is admitted among us, may 
 be to this elfect." p. 84. " 1.° Have you the forgiveness of your sins? (a pretty 
 bard question, my friends to answer, when the scripture "assures us, Eccles. 
 ix. 1, " Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred;" in other 
 words, whether he hath, or hath not, forgiveness of his sins.) 5.° Has no sin, 
 inward or outward, dominion over you? (What scrutiny!) 6." Do you desire 
 to be told of your faults? 7.° Do you desire to be told of all your faults, and 
 that phiin and home? 8." Do ^ou desire that every one of us should tell you 
 from time to time, whalsofver is in our heart, concerning you? 9.° Consider! 
 Do you desire we should tell you whatsoever we think, whatsoever we fear, 
 whatsoever we hear concerning you? 10." Do you desire that in doing this, we 
 thould come a« close as jiossible, that we should cut to the quick, and search
 
 roiia:^ catholic religion. 235 
 
 your heart to the bottom? 11." Is it your desire and design to be on this and 
 all other occasions, entiitly open, so as to speak without disguise, and without 
 reserve? {(i^J- Any of the preceding questions maybe asked ii often as occa- 
 sion requires: the four following; at every meeting. 85. 1.° What known sins 
 have you committed since our last meeting? 2.° What pardcular temptations 
 have you nitt with? 3.° How were you delivered? 4." Whathaveyou thought, 
 •aid. or done, of which you doubt whether it be sin, or not?" 
 
 They must reveal the whole soul and body, inward and outward 
 sins; and I defy my friend to quote any ihino-, even from Smith's 
 Liguori, to surpass that. In the Catholic practice, the confession is 
 to the priest alone ; who is hound hy holy vows, before God and man, 
 not to abuse his trust ; and it is unheard of, that a priest has ever vio- 
 lated his oath, by divulging the secrets confided to his ear, as the 
 minister of the sacrament. But tell such secrets to one woman, and, 
 as the witty Frenchman said, when asked why he began a deed with 
 the words, " Know one woman," &c. : " Why, if one woman knows 
 it, it is equivalent to " all men," for lliey will all know it soon enough 
 from her." (a laugh.) I suspect, that my opponent also suspects by 
 this time, that he has got into a prett}' badylx. I shall be amused to 
 see how he will ttl out of the noose. 
 
 Now, my friends, I have advanced Protestant testimony, to show, 
 either that the champion of Protestantism has trodden most awfully 
 upon Protestants' toes, or to prove that the Catholic practice of con- 
 fession is not immoral. Did time permit, I might cite the most con- 
 vincing testimony, from the fathers of the reformation, and from the 
 German princes, to show, that when the restraints of tlie confessional 
 were removed, the barriers of virtue seemed to be broken down. I do 
 not choose to use their testimony before this audience. It is sufti- 
 cientiy well known, and it follows from it, that my opponent ought 
 not to speak ill of confession ; for it has every where proved itself to 
 be a useful practice, and one beneficial to society. It has been one of 
 the most remarkable aids to justice, in cases which legal process could 
 not reach. To show this, 1 will relate an anecdote. Some one, in 
 New-York, Rtole a quantity of silver spoons, and, having confessed 
 the crime to the priest, was told, that neither confession nor absolution 
 could be of any avail, without restitution of the ill-gotten goods. Res- 
 titution was accordingly made. Here is a fine practical comment on 
 the subject. The police, having heard of the aflair, insisted that tho 
 priest should disclose the name of the thief, and wished to compel him 
 to do 80, to promote thereby, as itiey supposed they should do, the 
 cause of justice. The priest, of course, refused to commit a flagrant 
 breach of trust, and modestly contended, that the cause of justice was 
 much more efTectually promoted, by the course which a priest in such 
 case pursued. Refilitulion had been made : was not this enough 1 
 The police suhpcrnaed him to appear before the mayor of New-York, 
 the celebrated Do Witt Clinton, who decided that the priest could not 
 be compelled to give up the name. The lawyer employed by tho 
 priest, was Mr. Sampson, a Protestant, and an ornann lit to the bar. 
 He reported the trial. Before reading his spefcli, touching on this 
 very topic of the morality or immorality of auricular confession, hear 
 the admirable, but too briff preface, he has prefixed to the volume. I 
 am sure, every high-minded and honorable man here, whether Pro- 
 testant or Catholic, will subscribe chet-rfully to hiw Hciitimenls. "Tho 
 general satisfaction given to overy roligious denominatioo, by tbc de-
 
 230 DEDATE ON THE 
 
 cision of Uiis interesiing question, is well calculated to dissipate anti- 
 quated prejudices and religious jeiiio\isics ; and the reporter feels no 
 common salisfaclion in niakinj^ it public. When'tliat adjudication 
 shall be compared with the baneful statutes and judgments in Europe, 
 upon similar subjects, tiic superior equity and wisdom of American 
 jurisprudence, and civil probity, will be tell; and it cannot fail to be 
 well received by the enliirhtened and virtuous of every community, 
 and will constitute a document of history, precious and instructive to 
 the present and future generations." Having produced before the 
 court a book called, "The Papist misrepresented, and truly repre- 
 sented," and read the misrepresentation first, he continued : 
 
 "The papist truly nprtstnleJ, btlievts it dainiiabk' in any rtli<|,ion to make 
 gods of mm. Hovvevtr he. firmly holJs.that wlitn Christ sijeaUing to his apos- 
 tles said, John sx. 2-2, "Receive ye the Holy Ghosti whose sins you shall for- 
 give, lliey are Jhrgii-en; and whose sins yon shall rciaiu, they are retained;'' 
 he f;ave thrtn, and their successors, llie bishops and priests of the Catholic 
 church, authority to absolve any truly penittnl sinner from his sins. And God 
 having thus given them the ministry of rcconcilialion, and made them Christ's 
 legates, 2 Cor. v. 18, 19, 20, Christ's ministers and the dispensers of the 
 mysteries of Christ, 1 Cor. iv. and given them power that whatsoever they 
 loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matt, xviii. 18, he undoubtedly be- 
 lieves, that whosoever comes to them, making a sincere and humble confession 
 of his sins, with a true repentance and a lirm purpose of amendment, and a 
 hearty resolution of turning from his evil ways, may from tliem receive absolu- 
 tion, by the authority given them from heaven, and no doubt but God ratities 
 above the sentence pronounced in that tribunal; laosing in heaven whatsoever 
 is thus loosed by them on earth. And that, whosoevt r conies without the due 
 preparation, without a repentance from the bottoni of his heart, and real inten- 
 tion of forsaking his sins, receives no benefit by the absolution; but adds sin to 
 sin, by a high contempt of God's mercy, and abuse of his sacraments." 
 
 No wonder then, this latter being the true character of confession, it the bit- 
 terest enemies of the Catholic failli have still respected it; and that discerning 
 minds have acknowledged the many benefits society might practically reap from 
 it; abstracted from its religious character. It has, I dare say, been oftener 
 attacked by sarcasm than by good sense. The gentleman who argued against 
 us, has respected himself too much to employ that weapon, and I believe he has 
 laid all that good sense could urge against it, which we take in very gcKKl part. 
 
 But while this ordinance has been openly exposed to scotV and ridicule, its 
 excellence has been concealed by the very secrecy it enjoins. If it led to licen- 
 tiousness or danger, that licentiousness, or that tiangrr, would have come to 
 light, and there would be tongues enough to tell it. WhLl?t on the other hand, 
 its utility can never be proved by instances, because it cannot be shown how 
 many have been saved by it: how" many of the young of both stxes, have been 
 in the most critical juncture of their lives, admonished fioin the commission of 
 some fatal crime, that would have brought the parents' hoary hairs with sorrow 
 to the grave. These are secrets that cannot be revealed. 
 
 Since however, the avenues that lead to vice are many and alluring, is it not 
 well that some one should be open to the repenting sinner, where the fear of 
 lunishment and of the world's scorn, may not deter the yet wavering convert? 
 
 f the road to destruction, is easy and smooth, sifacilis 'descensus avemi, may 
 it not consist with wisdom and policy, that there be one silent, secret path, w here 
 the doubting penitent may be invited to turn aside, and escape the throng that 
 hurries him along? Some retreat, where, as in the bosom of a holy hermit, 
 within the shade of innocence and peace, the pilgrim of this chccquered life, 
 may draw new inspirations of virtue and repose. 
 
 ff the thousand ways of error, are tricked with flowers, is it .so wrong, that 
 somewhere there should be a sure and gentle friend, who has no interest to be- 
 tray, no care, but that of ministering to the incipient cure? The syren songs and 
 blandishments of pleasure, may lead the young and tender heart astray, and the 
 repulsive frown of stern authority, forbid rtturn. One step then gained or lost, 
 is victory or death. Let me then ask you that are jjarents, which would you 
 prefer, that the child of your hopes should pursue the couise of ruin, and cen- 
 
 I
 
 E05IAN CATHOUC EELIOIOW. 237 
 
 tinue with the companions of debauch and crime, or turn to the confessional, 
 where if compunction could once bring him, one gentle word, one well timed 
 admonition, one friendly turn by the hand, might save your child from ruin, and 
 your heart from una\ailing sorrow? And if the hardened sinner, the murderer, 
 the robber, or conspirator, can once be brought to bow his stubborn spirit, and 
 kneel before his frail fellow man, invite hiin to pronounce a penance suited to 
 his crimes, and seek salvation through a lull repentance, there is more gained, 
 than by the bloodiest spectacle of terror, than though his mangled limbs were 
 broken on the wheel, his body gibbeted or given to the foivls of the air. If 
 these reflections have any weight at all; if tiiis picture be but true, in an^ part, 
 better forbear and leave things as they are, than too rashly sacrifice to jealous 
 doubts, or shallow ridicule, an ordinance sanctioned by antiquity and founded 
 on experience of man's nature. For if it were possible for even faith, that re- 
 moves mountains, as they sav, to alter this, and with it to abolish the whole 
 fabric, of which it is a vital part, what next would follow ? Hundreds of millions 
 of christians would be set adrilt from all religious fastening! Would it be belter 
 to have so many atheists, than so many christians? Or if not, what church is fit- 
 ted to receive into its bosom, this great majority of all the cliristian world? Is 
 it determined whether they shall become Jews or Fliilanthropists, Chinese or 
 Mahonimedans, Lutherans, or Calvinists, Baptists or Brownists, Materialists, 
 Universalists or Destrurtionists, Arians, Trinitarians, Presbyterians, Baxterians, 
 Sabbatarians, Millennarians, Moravians, Antinomians or Sandcmanians, Junipers, 
 or Dunkers, Shakers or Quakers, Burgers, Kirkers, Independents, Covenanters, 
 Puritans, Hutchi^onians, Johnsonians, or Muggletonians. I doubt not, that in 
 every sect that I have nametl, there are good men, aiul if there be, I trust they 
 will find mercy, but chiefly so as they are charitable, eacii to his neighbor. And 
 why should they be otherwise? The gospel enjoins it; the constitution ordains 
 It. Intdlenince in this country could proieed from nothing but a diseased affec- 
 tion o( the pia malir, or the spleen." Catholic Question in .\inerica. p. 87. 
 
 I will now dismiss the question of confession. There are many things 
 to which I should like to f/ive answers, in set speeches; but, whoever 
 reads this controversy, must not suppose that becau-se I have not time 
 to answer every accusation at length, there is no answer to them. I 
 catch all I can of what my friend hurriedly utters ; for I cannot hear 
 liim, for his occasional hoarseness of voice. 
 
 When my worthy opjionent slated, in his long-blazoned proposition, 
 *♦ She is the man of sin," I imagined that lie meant no more than the 
 exciting of an innocuous laugh at the expense of" Mother Church," 
 by making a man of her in her old age. How great, then, has been 
 my surprise, to sec him, all eail set, dash headlong upon this rock of 
 commentators, the "infames scopulos iiiterjiretum," around which are 
 scattercfl in profusion, the wrecks of so ni;iny learned lucuhrittions, for 
 the last 1800 yeara ! Catholics and ProlestanLs, churchmen and lay- 
 men, ancients and moderns, Papias and Newton, and last, not least, 
 Mr. Alexander Camplxdl, liave all egregiously foundered upon tliis 
 hidden shoal of controversy. 
 
 No wonder, the learned Protestant, Scraliger, observed that Calvin 
 was wise, in not writing upon the Apocalyp.se. " Sajittil Ciilriniis, quia 
 in Jlpiicahfpnin non srrimil .'" Had we a congregation of scary old 
 women, instead of intelligent and sensible men, around us, I should 
 expect to be looked at liy many a |>rying eye, <-onfKleul of seeing one, 
 at least fif the ten horns, sprouting, or already strong, full-grown, and 
 threateningly prr rnineiit from my fonliead. Hut as I address reaso- 
 ners, not visionaries, nor rhapsodists, nor fanatics, I mnst reason, 
 leaving to my fanciful friend, the reaioiiH of iniaginalion, into wliiefi 
 he has down, far above my reach. — 1 would not fetch him too hastily 
 down, but by sending a few arguments, at rispeclful dislances after 
 one another to pluck a feather now, and a feather then from his wings,
 
 238 DEQATE ON THE 
 
 we may fetch him safely, and slowly, and with dignity back again to 
 the apprehension of log;ic, and common sense. These are the wea- 
 pons with which I, in the first place, proceed to grapple with the 
 gentleman. 
 
 1st. Is he an tnfalUbk? He pretends not, verily, to be such. 
 Then what is all his fanciful theory worth 1 It is based on reason and 
 historj', is it 1 Well hut Hugo Grotius, and Hammond, and Dr. 
 Herbert Thorndike, not to mention fifty others, of different religious 
 denominations, but all Protestants, and at least as good biblical and 
 classical scholars, as my learned antagonist, have ridiculed the notion 
 of calling the pope of Rome Antichrist ! If only one learned nnd 
 pious Protestant were pitted against my friend, I would be even 
 with him, or more than even. — How much superior in this argument, 
 when I have so many wise men on my side, while all the monoma- 
 niacs are on his ! " Lei them not lead people by the nose,'''' says Thorn- 
 dike, " to believe they can prove their supposition that the pope is anti- 
 christ, and the Fapists, Idolaters, when they cannot.^^ Thus the most 
 learned and orthodox Protestant divines cannot subscribe to — they are, 
 on the contrary, ashamed of— this interpretation of my learned opponent. 
 
 2nd. Those Protestants, who agree with him in calling the pope, 
 antichrist, disagree as to the particular pope to be so called, and still 
 more, as to the time when the downfall of Babylon was to have taken 
 place, or is to take place — as in the case of the Jewish testimony 
 against Jesus Christ, there is no agreement among the witnesses. 
 Braunbom confidently asserts that the popish antichrist was born in 
 the year 8G ; that he grew to his full size in 376 ; that he was at his 
 greatest strength in GSfi ; that he began to decline in 1086; that he 
 would die in 1640 ; and that the world would end in 1711. (Bayle Art. 
 Braunbom) bishop Newton, Napper, Fleming, Beza, Melancthon, Bul- 
 linger, had all their peculiar and conflicting theories, and none of them, 
 we may safely assert, has found the Apocalyptic key. Turien, Alix and 
 Kelt, are in nothing more wise, and equally unsuccessful. 
 
 3d. The scripture is opposed to him. For St. John says, 1st Ep, 
 ch. 2. V. 22. " That the liar who denieth Jesus to be the Christ is 
 antichrist." Now this, the pope has never done ; but, on the con- 
 trary, he contends earnestly for the faith in the divinity of Christ, once 
 delivered to the saints. 
 
 4th. Church history is opposed to him. For it shews, at every 
 page, how the pope sent missionaries into every part of the world, 
 even the most distant, to gather barbarous nations into the fold of 
 Christ, to preach to them salvation through his blood. Now accord- 
 ing to the rule of the Savior, "a kingdom, divided against itself, 
 cannot stand." And it is unheard of among all the signs of the anti- 
 christ, that he was to be the strenuous, and for many centuries, the 
 only apostle of the true Christ, the Savior. Even the worst pope, 
 was true to doctrine, and made the beams of the sun of righteousness, 
 of pure, christian faith, gild the villages of Tartary and cheer the 
 roving hordes in its deserts. 
 
 5th. My friend is opposed to himself; for he said to day, that the 
 eyes of the little horn signified wisdom and knowledge. Now as the 
 Catholic church is the mother of ignorance, the victim of blind and 
 ridiculous superstitions, the cause of all the obscurity of the dark 
 ages, she cannot be the antichxist. Again its mouth indicated elo-
 
 HOMAN CATIiOLIC RELIGIOX. 239 
 
 qnence, was eloquent — Then my opponent is, himself, the beast, for 
 his speech was truly eloquent. Indeed the ingenuity with which he 
 dressed up even the old story of " she is fallen, the mighty Babylon, 
 the great harlot, which corrupted the earth — Allelujah, Allelujah !" 
 is proof positive that would, hy hi.f comntand of language, deceive, if 
 possible, even the elect, into the belief, that he had succeeded, where 
 so many had failed, in breaking the seal of the mysterious volume. 
 He has clearly put the lion in a net, and not so much as a mouse 
 durst approach, to gnaw a hole, to let him out. 
 
 6th. He is opposed to Catholics. For they have been wont to ap- 
 ply the words of St. John, just before he speaks of the antichrist, to 
 the Protestant sects, which, they conceive, are fast hastening into the 
 arms of the Unitarians, who deny the divinity of Christ. ''They 
 went out from us ; but they were not of us ; for if they had been of 
 us, they would, no doubt, have remained with us, but that they may 
 be manifest that they are not all of us." I have already said some- 
 thing of the " monster," not merely " beast," but " monster," which 
 my friend attempted, like Prometheus, to form and steal fire from 
 heaven to animate, that he might call it " Apostolic Protestantism." 
 This, in our estimation, may be found to possess, some, at least, of 
 the characteristics of the Apocalyptic beast. But we should beg leave 
 to baptize it " Polypos" or " Legion." We could very satisfac- 
 torily shew that it has made war on the saints, and devoured them 
 by thousands, not to say millions ; that a portion of the beast so detains, 
 even now, when ligiit from heaven is breaking, millions of the saints, 
 of those who for the Confession of Jesus Christ and for conscience 
 take are reduced to a galling servitude, a poverty, and a degradation, 
 far worse than the lot of the negro, of the southern rice-fields. 
 
 My friend began by observing that symbolical language gives great 
 scope for the imagination. It sets us adrift upon a sea of speculation. 
 Is he ready to embark upon that sea 1 Are his sails trimmed 1 Is his 
 compass ready ? If the sad experience, to which 1 have alluded, has 
 not disinclined hitii to the voyage, I assure iiim that he will find it to 
 eventuate like that of the three wise men of Gotham, wliom our illus- 
 trious compatriot Washington Irving, sent to sea in a bowl. We may 
 drifi with every wind, and current, through a thousand perils, on this 
 wide ocean of iinaginalion. But, my friends, what has imagination to 
 do with this fitiestiotil She is a very good slave, but a very bad mis- 
 tress. CJive me full scope with your imagination and 1 can prove to 
 you any thing and every thing, until wo all are like the novel and ro- 
 mance writers of the present day — " /'« fmry ripe, in rrasim rotten.''^ 
 Novels and romances are, confessedly, works of fiction. They are not 
 expected to contain reason, and therefore they escape censure. But 
 when men pretend to pass off their day-dreams for the oracles of Hea- 
 ven, they should renieinher the law o(' Deuteronomy, xiv. 5, " l/iat the 
 Priyphrl and forgrr if drnniis yhdll hr sliiin,''^ and if they fear not even 
 the fate of the false seer, at least, they HJiould apprehend the lash of 
 criticism and ridicule. I know in tliis goo<l city, a respectable dame, 
 who is not a Catholic, but who has written a ream of paper on the 
 Apocalyptic visions. I sngtrest to tny friend that he may pfissilily ga- 
 ther adflitional light on the Kuhjeet, hy eomp.iring notes wilh her. She 
 lias made il llie study of years, and on one occasion, as 1 am eri'dihiy 
 informed, under the influence of the text's inspiration, she camo into
 
 240 DEBATE ON THB 
 
 chuTch, with the sun, moon, and stars pictured upon her dress, and 
 trailintr beneath her feet as she solemnly moved through the aisle. 
 You, sir, may have surpassed this lady in eloquence, ihouorh of that I 
 am not quite sure, but, certainly, she was a match for you, in imagina- 
 tion. My friend observed that the sun would go down, it would take 
 him a whole day, to shew the audience the rationale of the conceit with 
 which he has favored us — I could not help assenting to the gentle- 
 man's remark, and saying, in my mind, that it was even so — nay, that 
 it would take 3()5 days, before he could shew that there was amj thing 
 that was reasonable. 
 
 Southey observes that the " Romish church was, in the worst of 
 times, HOWEVER defiled, the salt of the earth, the sole conserva- 
 tive PRINCIPLE, BY which EuROPE WAS SAVED FROM THE LOWEST AND 
 
 MOST BRUTAL BARBARISM ;" and yet in the very face of this reluctant 
 tribute, by a firsi-rate Protestant historian, Mr. Campbell labors 
 to demonstrate that this very church was Anti-(/hrist ! He places 
 her on the Mediterranean, although it is a weary ride before you reach 
 her splendid domes and everlasting — maugre the liquifying — hills, on 
 which she sit«, in humble, if in queenly majesty. The Tiber, like its 
 namesake in the district, instead of being called a sea, may well be 
 called a " Goose creek'''' now. 
 
 My friend's Lexicography, Iconisms and Synchronisms, must have 
 all passed for argument strong as the rock of Gibraltar, in his own 
 opinion. It is unanswered and unanswerable. He says that God al- 
 ways by a beast, means some monster or other. Then .Tesus Christ 
 must be 'some monster or other,' for what is the cry of Heaven's Ju- 
 bilee at the end of all things'? '■'■Behold the '■Lion'' of the tribe nf Judah 
 hath prevailed ," and again — " Worthy was the Lamb that was slain," 
 &c. &c. My friend would mf<ke a strange havoc with the language 
 and imagery of heaven — a curious monster of a Lamb and a Lion, than 
 which notwithstanding all he has said, I will force him to confess that 
 there can be nothing, as there is nothing, more beautiful than this en- 
 tire passage. The Evangelists are represented in the vision of Eze- 
 kiel as Beasts and Birds of prey. Are they too Anti-Christs'? Eng* 
 land has chosen the Rampant and Roaring Lion for her emblem. My 
 friend has praised and dispraised her. What portion of Anti-Christ, 
 of the man of sin, is she'^ She has persecuted — and I might with far 
 more truth say to her, what the martyred Robert Emmett said to Lord 
 Norbury, ^'' If all the innocent blood your ladyship has shed could be col- 
 lected into one great reservoir, your Ladyship might swim in it.'''' My 
 friend spoke of Elizabeth's long life. He did not say of how many 
 years she abridged the life of the '■^ Fair Queen of Scots." Politically, 
 intellectually, and morally, Rome, or if you will, the papacy was the 
 Savior of Europe, as all historians agree. How, then, could she be 
 the 'Beast?' It is preposterous. Why all this has been prophesied 
 and falsified, and prophesied and falsified again. Forty, or fifty years 
 ago, as my venerable friend there (Rev. Mr. Badin, the first priest or- 
 dained in the United States) can inform you, almanacs were published 
 in Kentucky, stating the precise day and minute, when the Hallelujah 
 was to be intoned for the Downfall of Babylon ! The day has passed, 
 and what of it? I have got a book here, which makes Napoleon Bo- 
 naparte the man of sin. Born on an Island, in the Mediterranean, 
 Corsica, deriving his power from the French Revolution, which affect-
 
 ROMAK CATHOLIC RELIOIOX. 241 
 
 ed to crush Christianity, I'infame; which substituted decadi for Sa- 
 bath ; profaned temples: adored a vile woman in the temple of God, 
 immolated and expatriates! thousands upon thousands of priests, and 
 hoped that the last of kings mig-ht be strangled with the viscera of the 
 last of priests: plucked Pius VII. from the chair of St. Peter, drag- 
 ged the saints, the venerable monks by their beards, from the horns of 
 the altar, &c. &c. The Apocalypse is a sealed book, which God has 
 not vouchsafed to unfold to man. Better practise what we do know, 
 with certainty, of his adorable will, rather than blaspheme what we do 
 not understand. Meanwhile, if ever there was made a plausible appli- 
 cation of this mysterious prophecy, behold it in the rise, progress, and 
 arrest o£ Mahommedanism. The sea, or lake, the year 666, the war 
 on Christ and the saints; the sword and Koran; the watch-word Be- 
 lieve OR DIE, the conspiracy of Christendom during the crusades to 
 check its power, the gloriously disastrous battle of Lepanto, the pre- 
 sent crippled, but still formidable state of Islamism, all pictured so 
 vividly as almost to convince us that we have surely discovered the 
 object of the prediction. Let us read from Waddington. I shall make 
 a few brief pauses which you will fill up by appropriate reflections. 
 How few have understood the appalling dangers that this civil and 
 religious despotism of the Impostor of Mecca, threatened, during so 
 many ages, to Christianity and the world I 
 
 " I'hc seventh century was marked by the birth of a new and resolute adrer- 
 sary, who tiegan his career with the most stupendous triumphs, who has torn 
 from us the possession of lialf tlic worl I, and who retains his conquests even to 
 tfais moment. Mahomet was born about the year 570; we are ignorant of the pre- 
 cise period of the nativity of that man who wrought the most extraordinary re- 
 Volution in the affairs of this (^lobe, which the agency of any being merely hu- 
 man has ever yet accomplished. His pretended mission did not commence till 
 he was about forty years old, and the date of his celebrated flight from Mecca, 
 the Hedjirah, or era of Mahometan nations, is 622, A. D. The remainder of his 
 life was spent in establishing his religion and his authority in his native land, Ara- 
 bia; and the sword with which he finally completed that purpose, he bequeathed, 
 for the universal propagation of both, to his followers. His commission was 
 tealously executed; and, in less than a century after his death, his faith was un- 
 interruptedly extended by a chsiin of nations from India to the Atlantic. 
 
 The fate of Persia was decided by the battle of Cadesia, in 636. Fn Syria, 
 Damascus had already fallen, and after the saneuinary conflict of Yermuk, where 
 the Saracens for the first time encountered and overthrew n christian enemy, the 
 conquerors instantly proceeded to the nduction of Jerusali'in ; that grand reli- 
 gious triumph they obtained in 637. In the year followiiig Aleppo and Anti- 
 och fell into their haods, which completed the conquest of Syria. I'hencc they 
 proceederl nr>rthward as far as the shores of the Euxinc and the neighborhood of 
 Constantinople. 
 
 The invasion ofF.gypt took place in 63fl, and within the space of three years, 
 the whole of that populous province was in possession of the infidels. Afexan- 
 dria wa.s the last city which tiW; iind in somewhat more than a century after the 
 expulsion of philosophy from Kiirope by a christian legislator, the schools o( 
 Africa were closed in their turn by the arms of an unlettered Mnhomelnn. 
 
 The success of the SHracens was not inconsiderably promoted by the religious 
 dissenlions of their chriitian adversaries. A vast number of heretics who had 
 been oppressed and stigmatised by edicts and councils were scattered over the 
 surface of Asia; and these were contented to receive a foreign master, of whose 
 prinriples they were still ignorant, in the place of a tyrant whose iiijii*tice they 
 had experienced. Hut in I'.gypt, especially, the whole mass of the native popula- 
 tion was iinl'ortunately involved in thi- Jacobite heresy ; and few nt that lime 
 were found, except the reslrlent Greeks, who adhereil to the dortrihes of the 
 church. The followers of Kiityches formej an iiiimeiliate alliance with the sol- 
 diers of .Mahomet against n ('atholic prince; and they considered that there was 
 nothing unnatural in that act, since they hoped to secure for tbomsclres, under a 
 
 V 3r
 
 '212 DKBATK ON THK 
 
 MHhointtan, the tolf ration which had l)'en refused by an orthodox |;oTei'nm«nt. 
 We iliould remark, however, that this hope, the pretext of tlieir desertion, was 
 with many the suggestion of their malice: that besides the recollection of wrongs, 
 Mnd the desire to escape or revenge them, thej were intlanied as furiously as 
 their persecutors hy tnat narrow sectarian spirit, which is commonly excited 
 n)ost keenly whore the difl'erenres are most trilling; and which, while it exagge- 
 rated the lines that separated them Irom their fellow christians, blinded them to 
 the broad gulf which divided all alike from the infidel. 
 
 From Kgvpt, the conquerors rushed along the northern shore of Africa; and 
 though their progress in that direction was interrupted by the domestic ditsen- 
 tions of the prophet's faiullv, even more than by the occasional vigor of the 
 christians, they were in possession of Carthage before the end of the seventh 
 century. Thence they proceeded westward, and after encountering some oppo- 
 sition irom the native IVloors, little either from the Greek or Vandal masters of 
 the country, they completed their conquests in the year 709. 
 
 Hitherto the Mahometans had gained no footing in Europe; and it may seem 
 sti-ange that the most western of its provinces should have been that which was 
 first exposed to their occupation. But the vicinity of Spain to their latest con- 
 quests, and the factious dissentions of its nobility, gave them an early opportu- 
 nity to attempt the subjugation ot that coimtry. 'I'heir success was almost unu- 
 sually rapid. In 711 they overthrew the Gothic monarchy by the victory of 
 Xeiebjand the two following years were suflicient to secure their dominion over 
 the greatest part of the peninsula. 
 
 The waters of this torrent were destined to proceed still a little further. Ten 
 years after the battle of Xcres, the Saracens crossed the Pyrenees and overran 
 with little opposition the southwestern provinces of France — ' the vineyards of 
 Gascony and the city Bourdeaux were possessed by the sovereign of Damas- 
 cus and Samarcand; and the south of France, from tlie mouth of the Garonne to 
 that of the Rhone, assumed the manners and religion of Arabia.' Still dissatisfied 
 with those ample limits, or impatient of any limit, these children of the desert 
 again marched forward into the centie of the kingdom. They were encamped 
 between Tours and Poictiers, when Charles Martel, the mayor, or duke of the. 
 Franks, encountered them. It is too much to assert that the fate of Christianity 
 depended upon the result of the battle which followed; but if victory had de- 
 clared for the Saracens, it would probably have secured to them in France the 
 same extent, perhaps the same duration, of authority which they pos3es.sed in 
 Spain. Next they wTjuld have carried the horrors of war and Islamism into Ger- 
 luany or Britain; but tliere, other fields must have been fought, against nations of 
 warriors as brave as the Franks, by an invader who was becoming less power- 
 ful and even less enthusiastic, as he advanced farther from the head of his resour- 
 ces and his faith." Waddingtoii's Church Hist, p'ge 135. New York tdit. 1835, 
 
 This is the tyranny fronn which tlie pope has saved us, and for it 
 civilization and religion owe him a debt which they will never be 
 able to repay. 
 
 My opponent ran a parallel between pagan and Catholic Rome. 
 Docs he not know that tlie pagan religion borrowed many of its es- 
 sential rites, and not a ff;w of its forms, from the indistinct knowl 
 edge of a primary revelation made to Adam and to the patriarchs, 
 and afterwards from the written law ? And might I not rim a more 
 perfect parallel between the Catholic and the Jewish institutions, 
 while the latter was divine ? The Catholics have a Pontifex Maxi- 
 mus, or High Priest; so had the Jews. The Catholics have a church 
 to guide the people ; the Jews had a synagogue for the same purpose. 
 The Catholics have a famous temple, to whose doctrine and worship 
 all must conform; so had the Jews. The Catholic pontiff enjoys some 
 temporal power; so did the Jewish pontiff. The Catholic pontiff sprin- 
 kles holy water on the people ; the Jewish pontiff sprinkled them with 
 the blood of a heifer, that was slain. The Catholic says, when re- 
 minded by the lustral water, emblematical of the blood of Christ, of 
 the power and mercy which can cleanse the stains of the conscience, 
 "Thou shalt sprinkle me, Lord, with hyssop, and I shall be cleans-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC BELIOION. 243 
 
 ed ; thou shaltwash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow." Da- 
 vid also said, "Thou shalt sprinkle me, O Lord, with hyssop, and 1 
 Bhall be cleansed ; thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter 
 than snow." The Catholics have nuns; so had the Jews nuns, like 
 the prophetess Ann, who for "/owr score and four years departed not 
 from ike temple, by fastings and prayers during night and day .'' Luke, 
 xi. 36, 37. It is thus that his parallel crumbles! Lalcinos is not 
 the name of the Catholic church. The title that the pope assumes is 
 " sr.rvtts servorum Dei,''^ servant of the servants of God. The name 
 of Luther, Dioclesian, Julian, of the true God, himself, could be made 
 to tally with the numbers GG6 — see Robinson's Calmet, p. 71. I 
 could take letters out of the name of Alexander Campbell to mean 
 the same thing. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. — If you can, I will give up the argument. (A 
 laugh). 
 
 Bishop Plrcell. — What language must it be ? Hebrew, Syriac, 
 Greek, Latin or English? No matter. E is in some languages — 
 300— L is 50. — 
 
 Mr. Campbell. — You have not yet learned the numeral alphabet. 
 Bishop Purcell. — I cannot make the sum right off, but have a 
 little patience with me and I will pay you all. (A laugh. — The au- 
 dience having composed themselves at the request of the Moderators, 
 Bishop Purcell proceeded.) Thus, you see, my friends, the name of 
 my friend helps us in this matter, for it is the name of a man, and the 
 name of a beast, too, with a hunch on its back, when wc can find the 
 lacking numerals to decipher him. He has made a certain admission, 
 after having denied it all the week, that the apostles founded llie se« 
 of Rome. This shows that the truth ivill prevail, and that my friend 
 will laugh in his sleeve at you, if you believe all his fanciful and ro- 
 mancing conjectures about the man if sin. Again — another contra- 
 diction." If all that blood is to be shed, in the exarchate of Raven- 
 na, we are here, in Ohio, and safe enough from the danger under our 
 happy constitution. — Wc need have no fear of being cruslied binealh 
 the fragments of that crazy and tottering chair, the nope is sitting in 
 BO uneasily ; the very rumblings of the volcanic hills will die, and 
 their last echoes be inaudible on this side of the Athmtir, and as 
 the Apocalyptic magician has i)oinl<<l his wand, to the dilapidated 
 jaws of the Beast, the conclusion is plain, that, as he has lost all his 
 teeth, he can't hite ! we need not be afraid of hi'u. 
 
 We are told the pope suffers himself to be adored, and calls liim- 
 self God. 8o far from this, we have seen how lie humbles hiinsidf l)e- 
 forethe altar, bow he prays llu; humblest of the saints [n pray for liim 
 to God, and how he has had a prayer inscrilx'd in our church liturgy, 
 whpreby we ask of God to preserve him from all evil, especially froin 
 the worm of all evils, sin. Hoes this look like exalting hiinscH above 
 every thing that is railed (Jod ? The present po|)e is said to be r)no 
 of the best of men. The only faults alleged against him are that he gives 
 employment to a large number of poor tradesmen, relmilding the 
 burned church of St. Paul — and that ho /a/it^ sm// Komewlial jirofuae- 
 Iv. I wish every nne here had as little to answer for. 
 
 Much has been naid about the gold and silver of the Vatican. My 
 friend, I am stiro, know* thai money is a neccinary evil. If we all had 
 a little morn of it, wc might purchase heaven with the mammon of ini- 
 quity ; but the pope ifl now poor. If I am rightly informed, his trea-
 
 241 DEBATE ON THK 
 
 8UTy is drained. He has fortunately, or unfortunately, lost this mark 
 of the beast, if it be one. But my worthy opponent has overlooked 
 this remarkable fact. Judea abounded in (toUI ; St. Peter's, in Rome, 
 was never eovered all over, like the temple of .lerusaloni, with plates 
 of gold. When Titus besieged Jerusalem, the Jews swallowed their 
 gold to hide it from their rapacious conquerors — and this was made a 
 new incident in the dreadful vengeance of heaven upon that deicidal 
 people, for the soldiers, in quest of gold, rijtped open the bodies of 
 the ill-fated victims whom famine, or the arrow, had precipitated from 
 the ramparts. After the sacking of Jerusalem, so great was the quan- 
 tity of gold obtained in it, that gold fell, in sterling value, throughout 
 the Roman empire. This would prove, that Jerosalem was the beast. 
 How vain are all the gentleman's eloquent remarks. Not one of these 
 marks is peculiar to Rome, while many of them are not applicable to 
 her at all. I will say nothing about the millstone; it went to the 
 bottom, and so did the gentleman's argument. 
 
 My friends, I have one or two arguments to borrow from a very dis- 
 tinguished Catholic writer, Dr. Lingard, author of the history of Eng- 
 land. We shall see whether my friend has any of the symptoms of 
 mania here so graphically described. 
 
 " Duriiij^ llie loiig^ lapse ot more lli;iii lit'teen cenfurie-s, the tisiansof the apos- 
 tle St. Joiin had been eiivtloped in the thickest obscurity. At tlie era of the re- 
 formation, a strong ray of apocalyptic light dissipated the clouds which popery 
 had raised: and since tliat period every old woman, of either gender, has been 
 able to unravel wilh ease the web of mystery, and to reveal to the world the 
 true meaning of the book of Revelations. From the days of Luther to the pres- 
 ent, we have possessed a numerous and uninterrupted succession of translators* 
 lecturers, expositors, and annotators, who may truly be said to have seen vis- 
 ions, and to have dreamed dreams; and, lest by some mishap the pious race 
 •hould become extinct, Bishop Warburton has left a fund for the support or the 
 reward of the more fiery among its members.* I may admire his zeal, but not 
 his wisdom. He probably did not see that he was thus endeavoring to diffuse 
 and perpetuate an alarnnng species of intellectual disease, which, for the sake 
 of distinction, I shall beg leave to call the apocalyptic mania. It has not, indeed, 
 been hitherto classed in any system of nosology, but it is not on that account 
 less real, or less general; ancl, I trust, I shall confer a benefit on the public by 
 proceeding to pomt out the origin, and to describe the symptoms of this the* 
 ological malady. 
 
 When " the magnanimous fathers of the reformation" broke from the com- 
 munion of the Catholic church, they found it convenient to justify their schism, 
 
 by pleading that the Pope was Antichrist, and Rome the scarlet w of 
 
 Babylon. This doctrine, while It inflamed the bigotry, flattered the spiritual 
 pride of their disciples; with conscious superiority of birth, they sought in the 
 apocalypse for proof of the ignominious descent of their opponents, and their 
 lacrilegious familiarity with the mysterious volume, quickly produced the 
 disease, which is the "subject of the present observations. Its progress was 
 rapid. It soon pervaded every department in life; but its most distinguish- 
 ed victims were, and still are, chosen from among those churchmen, who, 
 from the instructions of the nursery or the university, have imbibed a lively 
 dread of the horrors of popery. The mania first manifests itself by a restless 
 anxiety respecting the future fortunes of the church, and a strong attachnient to 
 prophetic hieroglyphics: the antichrfst, and the man of sin; the beast with (en 
 horns, and the beast with two horns; the armies of Gog and Magog; the fall of 
 Babylon, and the arrival of the millennium, become the favorite, the only sub- 
 ject's of study; false and ridiculous perceptions amuse the imagination ; the 
 judgment is gradually enfeebled, and, at last, the most powerful minds sink into 
 the imbecility of childhood. Of the truth of this desciiption we have a melan- 
 
 • According to his will, an annual seiioon is preaebcU in Lincoln's Inn Chapel, to prove 
 t^» Po^ to Ira Autichri3t, &c. &c.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 245 
 
 choly proof in the great Sir Isaac jVewton. To him Nature seemed to have un- 
 locked her choicest secrets: as a philosopher he was and is still unrivalled: but 
 no sooner did he direct his telescope /roni the inotioiis of the heavenly bodies 
 to the visions in the apocalypse, tlia:! his head grew dizzy, the downfall of pope- 
 ry danced before his eyes, and he hazarded predictions which on the scale of 
 prophets, have phiced hiui far beneath the well known Francis Moore, physician 
 and almanac-inakcr. 
 
 It should be observed, that this intellectual malady, like the other species of 
 mania, assumes a thousand diflerent shapes, according to the predispositions of 
 the subject which it attacks. I shall produce a few instances. In 1789, Mr. 
 Cook published a translation of the apocalypse, with keys to open its meaning 
 to his readers. This reverend gentleman was Greek professor in the universi- 
 ty at Cambridge; and, as his reading naturally led him to the Greek poets, he 
 was determined that the author of the apocalypse should be a poet, and, more- 
 over, the rival of Sophocles. In his opmion, the apocalvpse is a tragedy form- 
 ed on the same plan as the (Edipus Tyrannus. "Thedran)a opens with the 
 temple scene; the seals, the trumpet, and the vials unfold the plot; and though 
 the antichrist does not die, no more than (Edipus, yet he falls into such calami- 
 ty as makes him an object of pity, and justifies the lamentations pronounced on 
 bis downfall." JVor is this all. By trying one of his apocalyptic keys on the 
 Odyssey of Homer, he has discovered that poem also to have been inspired, and 
 infornis us that the suitors of Penelope represent the vassals of poperv, who, un- 
 der the pretence of courting the bride, the christian church, devour all the good 
 things in her house, till Christ, the true Ulysses, the o^of ""ost or safe way, ar- 
 rives, and wreaks his vengeance on them. 
 
 In Mr. Granville Sharp, the favorite apocalyptic Nostrsfdamus of the Rector 
 of Kewnton Longville, (Le Messreply, p. 193, 202,) the mania has shewn itself 
 io a dilTurent manner. This gentleman is known to be singularly partial to mo- 
 nosyllables. He has written a volume on the Hebrew letter vau, and another on 
 the Greek articles, o, m, to. From letters and articles, he was induced, by his 
 previous success and the importunity of his friends to proceed to the e,\plica- 
 tion of the visions in the book of Revelations. Here the apocaly[)tic mania soon 
 discovered itself: but the appearance of the disease was modified by his pre- 
 vious habits of monosyllabic investigation. He convinced himself that the name 
 of the beast was Latcinos, and that Lateinos must signify the Latin church. The 
 proof is curious. Lateinos, lie contends, is derived from thu llcbrtw monosyl- 
 lable LAT, which means to cover or conceal. iS'ow the Latin church, in the 
 celebration of the mass, conceals some of the prayers from tlie j)eopli-, by order- 
 ing them to be pronounced with a low voice: therefore the Latin church is La- 
 teinos, the beast in tiie apr)calypse. Moreover the head of the Latin church resides 
 in the palace of the Lateran, a iiami: derived from the same monosyllabic L.\T: 
 and the Lateran palace is situated in the cr>unlry anciently called L!itium,an ap- 
 pellation also derived from the same monosyllabic Lat; and Latiiim is a province 
 of tiiat part of F.iirope called Italy, which also derives its name from the same 
 fUOno'iylLtble I/AT. Fie not startled, gentle readi r; iipocalyjitic maniacs can 
 with equal I'arility read backwards or forwards; and Mr. Sliarn informs us, that, 
 if we read Italy backwards, we shall have Vlali, in tin iiiidit ot which is the He- 
 brew iiionosyllable LAT. JVaviget Antic^raiiil 
 
 Were I to describe all the varieties o( the disease, thc'sc obsiTvations would 
 swell to an uniiieasurable bulk. I shall tliirefure content myni'lf with noticing 
 the prophetic, which is iierhaps the most prevalent, upccies. V^'llell the mind is 
 seized with this mania, the re;^ion« of futurity are instantly opened to its sight: it 
 can point out the date and nature of every event which is to happen; it can in- 
 form US in what year popery, Muhaiiiiiicdism, and iiifuUlily are to perish; when 
 and where antichrist u to Ije born, reign, ami dir; who is to reslorf the Holy 
 Land to the Ji w»; and in what ) < iir the new Jerusalem is to descend (roni heaven. 
 It is in rain that preceding prophets liavi' fre(|uently oiitlivi-d tlifir own jircdic- 
 lions; tin- hitons of experience are heard with coiiteinpt : and eiii h luw seer is 
 convinced of the truth of his own visirnis. Anions thoitr who hnvi- pnllireil Inte- 
 Ir under thi< form of the disease, the most cliKtinguished are Mr. \Vliital(rr niiH 
 Mr. Faber, both scholars of extin«ive rrudition, nnil botli cfninlly nniinnlrd 
 •gainst the Church of Komr. 'I'hcy both ni;rri- that Liithrr i«thr nii;;rl with the 
 everlasting gospel; and, if by his gospel they ineiin the •olifidinn doctrine alrea- 
 dy Daticed, they have a chance to be right. It may justly be called everlasting; 
 V 2
 
 246 DEBATE ON TUB 
 
 for it will probably find proselytes as long; as man shall dwell on the earth. Mr. 
 Whilaker discovers that the two horns o( tlie beast arc the two monastic orders 
 of the Dominicans and Franciscans. Why they should claim the preference be- 
 fore their brethren, of greater anti(|uity, or more griural difl'usion, I know not; 
 but it is certainly unfortunate that the beast has not four horns: then you, ye 
 sons of Benedict and Loyola, might have had the honor of being seatecf on the 
 remaining two. The »ame gentleman informs us that the Ottoman empire will 
 soon fall, Rome be wrested from the pope, and the seat of the papacy be trans- 
 ferred to Jerusalem. Mr. I'aber makes an c(|ual display of erudition; but the 
 third angel, Mr. Whitaker's Zuingle, he has placed in a most uncomfortable situa- 
 tion: he has bound him fast in the midst of the ocean, and transformed him into 
 the insular church q/' England! Nor does he always agree with his rival in more 
 important points. The two beasts he shews to be tne two contemporary Ro- 
 man empires, temporal and spiritual, under the emperors and the popes: and 
 gives his reatlcrs the pleasing intelligence, that both tlie Turk and the Pope will 
 expire in the year 1868. Though he does not expect to witness this happy event 
 himself, yet he has the goodness to promise a sight of it to many of the present 
 generation: 
 
 £i triOV XxK^Xi ^XVTIUiTKl, Hi XXI VXl. 
 
 Unfortunately for these two prophets, each disputed the accuracy of the pre- 
 dictions of his rival: an animated controversy tbilowcd; and the result has been 
 a conviction in the minds of most of their readers, that each has completely suc- 
 ceeded in demolishing the system of his adversary, and completely failed in estab- 
 lishing his own. 
 
 Thus have I attempted to describe the diflferent symptoms of this disease; but 
 I hope I shall be excused from indicating the method of cure. When the mania 
 has once obtained possession of the brain, I doubt whether three Anticyrae would 
 be sutlicient to expel it. I would rather, like Dr. Trotter in his treatise on the 
 nervous temperament, endeavor to correct that predisposition which natu- 
 rally leads to it. I would advise the Protestant theologian to suspend, for a while 
 at least, his assent to some of those doctrines, which education has taught him 
 to revere as sacred. I would have him learn to doubt whether it be certain, that 
 a long succession of bishops, through many centuries, can be that one individual 
 described by St. Paul as the man of sin: or that the church, from which almost 
 all other churches have received the knowledge of the gospel is, " the great 
 mother of harlots," and the kingdom of Antichrist. I would recommend to him, 
 if he must decipher the apocalyptic hieroglyphics, to attend to the solenm assev- 
 eration of their author, which is frequently repeated both in the first and the last 
 chapters, that his predictions were, even at the time in which he wrote, on the 
 point of beino; fulfilled. In the destruction of Jerusalem, and the first period of 
 the christian history, he may find enough to exercise his ingenuity, and may per- 
 haps stumble on the only clue which can lead to the solution of the dilficuities 
 contained in this mysterious volume. I am aware that what I ask, will not readily 
 be granted to me. The doctrine that popery is the beast, the pope antichrist, 
 and christian Rome the whore of Fsabylon, is, I know, an im|)ortant part of the 
 new gospel preached by Luther and his associates: it forms, to use the words of a 
 learned prelate,* "a primary pillar of the reformed faith." But when I con- 
 sider the dangerous consecjuences of this doctrine, its deleterious eflecfs on the 
 judgment of some among the most distinguished writers of the Protestant com- 
 munion, the ridicule which it serves to throw on the inspired writings, and the 
 handle which it gives to the sneers and contempt of the professed infidel, I in- 
 dulge a well-founded hope that, for the sake of religion and humanity, it will 
 meet with little support from the enlightened characters, who now preside in 
 the established church. If it once formed a pillar of the reformation, I conceive 
 it could only be a temporary support, which may now be removed without dan- 
 ger to the fabric. To the pious fraud, from its utility, the first reformers might 
 easily reconcile their consciences; at the present dav it may be rejected by their 
 luccessors with some credit: it cannot be retained without disgrace. 
 
 ♦ Watson's Theologirai Tracts, vol. v. p. 7.
 
 ROMAN CATUOLIC BELIOION. 247 
 
 Half-past 11 o'clock, A. M. 
 Mr. Campbell rise? — 
 
 The bishop has not given one but many and various proofs of the 
 truth of an adage of some currency and authority. Napoleon in his 
 flight from Moscow, musing on recent disasters, often uttered this ex- 
 
 firession : " There is but one short step from the sublime to the ridicu- 
 ous." I never before witnessed so illustrious a proof of the invin- 
 cible force of the argument from prophecy. I looked at the gentle- 
 man writhing under the accumulating evidence, amounting almost to 
 demonstration, that I had asserted no defamation in my fourth propo- 
 sition. Instead of meeting the subject with scripture and argument, 
 like the scuttle fish, he darkens the waters that he may escape the 
 eye and the hand of his pursuer. His effort at mystification is as 
 ridiculous as it is imbecile. He invokes the assistance of some old 
 lady to create a laugh ; but the audience has got tired laughing at his 
 manoeuvres. The subject is two grave, and the audience loo deeply 
 penetrated with the awful truth which they had just heard to be amus- 
 ed by such levity. Failing so manifestly, in the attempt to disparage 
 all use of the prophecies, he undertakes to explain. He is driven 
 into Asia to the Koran, and to Mecca for the man of sin ! How have 
 the weapons of war perished ! Facts are not found in the history of 
 Mahomet or Mahometanism, to explain these prophecies : and conscious 
 of this, his own courage fails, and a second time he resorts to ridicule. 
 As Voltaire, Volney, and other wits, have fruitlessly attempted to 
 laugh Christianity out of countenance, he endeavors to place the whole 
 matter before you as idle and absurd. Could my rhetorical and ingen- 
 ious opponent afford more unequivocal manifestations of confusion and 
 dismay, than you have now witnessed 1 But, my friends, we are not 
 to be laughed out of onr argument, that stands before us like the rock 
 of Gibraltar. The waves that strike it, but foam out their imbecility, 
 and are broken to pieces. He may, indeed, torture his ingenuity to 
 escape from an argument, which he dare not, which he cannot meet ; 
 but he will torture it in vain. 
 
 The effort of my opponent has been as much to disparage prophecy 
 itself, as any mode of inteqireting it. According to him, prophecy 
 is no gift: On our principles, it is at least as useful and interesting 
 as history. It is one of the kindest boons of heaven, thai we an- per- 
 mitted sometimes to peep into tin: future, guided by the lamp of eier- 
 nity. The whole Hible, is for the most part, history ami prophecy. 
 It is almost all history, for prophecy is the history of the future. Cod 
 never held the iniinau family in suspense respecting their vital inter- 
 est-s. Their origin, duty, and destiny, tie has eiiualiy regarded in all 
 his communicationK. Soon as our first parents had transgressed in 
 Eden, he permitted not one sun to go down, till he appeared to them 
 and revealed a portion of his purposes. In a single period he con- 
 denses a miniaturfr vi<!W of the future destinies of mankind : " I will 
 place enmity," said he to the ser()ent, " lietween thy sec^d and her 
 seed : it shall !)ruise thy liea<l, an<l thou slialt bruise his heel." I 
 thank our Heavenly Father, that he has thus from the begiimiiig vouch- 
 safed to his children something of tlir- future. Indeed, so abundant 
 are his revelations, his i)romises which are all prophc-cies, and his 
 prophecies which all threaten or |>romise, that there is scarce a single 
 page of the whole Uible without a proj)hecy inscribed upon it. Cer-
 
 248 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tainly my opponent has forgotten this ! Has he not, according to his 
 ability, been turning into ridicule prophecy itself, the Bible itself 
 God's orood and perfect gift? But if prophecy be wholly unintelli- 
 gible ; Why, I ask, should it constitute so large a portion of God's 
 only book to man T But I will not farther debate this question. The 
 gentleman himself would admit all this, on any other occasion. 
 
 I did not intend, indeed, and I am sorry I proposed, an argument of 
 this kind before such an assembly, limited as I am at present to an 
 hour or two, at most to complete it. If my opponent would devote 
 with me a day or two to this subject, I might even satisfy himself, 
 not only that prophecy is a gift, an intelligent gift ; but that much of 
 it pertains to the origin, progress, and catastrophe of that very hierar- 
 chy, of which he is himself a member. 
 
 There are two kinds of maps in schools ; one gives both the place 
 and the name of it, the other (sometimes called a blank map,) gives 
 the place without the name. The former represents history ; the lat- 
 ter, prophecy. Prophecy is as coaect a map of the future, as histo- 
 ry is of the past ; but it is not always quite so obvious. I have taught 
 geography with these two sorts of maps.^ The pupil studied on that 
 inscribed with the names of the places, and we examined him on the 
 blank map. The study of fulfilled prophecy, with the history of the 
 past, prepares us for the blank map, the outline of the future. On 
 the blank map, we can learn the great outline of things — their rela- 
 tive positions, distances and magnitudes. We may sometimes err, in 
 fixing the proper name on every place : but we cannot greatly err, in 
 forming a useful acquaintance with the whole ; especially, having a 
 correct knowledge of what is past, or of certain portions of the past, 
 which must ever be a key to the future. * Thus we can acquire a clear 
 and satisfactory outline of the vast expanse of future time, although 
 we may, sometimes, err in a date, or in the name of a particular place, 
 person, or thing. 
 
 But as my opponent has so perfectly failed to meet my argument; 
 I shall have to give it to the public without much amplification or 
 proof. I will, therefore, recapitulate, emphatically, a few of the 
 grand land marks ; and 
 
 1. The two tyrannies mentioned in Daniel and John, arose out of 
 the great sea, the Mediterranean ; or, from among the nations border- 
 ing thereon, in a state of tumult. Does not Rome stand on these wa- 
 ters ; and is not Italy almost surrounded by them 1 'J'he Tiber itself, 
 inconsiderable as it is, is nevertheless, a part of this very sea. This 
 beast came not from the deserts of Arabia ; nor from the Pacific, nor 
 the Atlantic ; but from the Mediterranean. 
 
 2. The origin or commencement of these two despotisms, or of the 
 symbolic beasts of Daniel and John, exactly synchronize. They were 
 contemporaries : indeed, they are identical. They both rise at the 
 same time and place. 
 
 3. They are co-existent, and continue the same time, 1260 years. 
 
 4. The types, in both pictures, or the grand incidents and charac- 
 teristics, are the same. 
 
 5. Their latter end is the same. There is, indeed, no argument on 
 this subject : it is as plain as history. My opponent will never debate 
 it. Paul occupies the place of a commentator or interpretator, and 
 without a figure explains the mystery of iniquity. He avers the im- 
 possibility of the appearance of this monster, this papal hierarchy, so
 
 BOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 249 
 
 long as pagan Romp, which then hindered a pope, should continue to 
 hinder. All commentators understand, " he that lets," as referring to 
 pagan Rome. We have already seen, that we could not find a pope 
 before the time of Phocas the usurper, and Bonifice III. No politico- 
 ecclesiastic communion of nations, under a ghostly monarchy, ever 
 stood on earth before that day. 
 
 Paul speaks of the temple of God, ns the residence of this mammoth 
 antagonist power. It was not in a pure church he appeared, and, cer- 
 tainly it was not among the pagan Arabs, that this man of idolatry (for 
 such is the import of sin in this passage) showed his blasphemous face. 
 
 I said not, that there was no church of God at Rome, before the pa- 
 pacy. If there never had been a true church of God, at Rome; the papacy, 
 or the man of sin, never could have been born tliere. For, be it ob- 
 ser»red, emphatically, the man of sin is not a pagan, a Turk, a pro- 
 fessed infidel ; but, an apostate Christian. 
 
 Does not the pope of Rome, and none but the pope of Rome, fill up 
 all the grand lineaments of this painting] He exalts himself above 
 all tliat is called a god — a magistrate, a pagan god ; nay, above God 
 himself: tor no false God, nor the only living and true God, proposed 
 to forgive sins before they were committed ! His name is covered 
 with blasphemy. There never stood on earth such a monster; look- 
 ing like a lamb, and speaking like a dragon. I need not, however, 
 repeat what has not been contradicted. 
 
 .My argument is unanswered. I regret that it must go to the public, 
 without being more fully tested. As to Lateinos, the gentleman may 
 laugh at it ; but can he show state or empire, whose name like that of 
 He Lattiie Basikia, will spell 666 T If he cannot, this alone ought to 
 check his opposition. 
 
 My opponent did me great honor, in giving me such a colleague as 
 Sir Isaac Newton, to bear half the brunt of his indignation. Greater 
 literary and ecclesiastic names, than that of this great philosopher, and 
 brighter stars in universal knowledge, adorn those prophetic heavens, 
 and conceiiirat*! their light upon this map, which I liave traced so hastily 
 and imperfectly. What, if I should let the gentleman see a star of the 
 first magnitude, or hear an archdeacon, in his own church, say a word 
 on Babylon, and on the woman that sits on many waters ! 
 
 " Who can tlurc s.-ifdy live, wlicre not only wirkrd things arc lawful, but*!! 
 men arc roni|)<:llc(l \ty the »er\«ri st piiniahnients to Ixlitvr, H|)«nk, anil follow the 
 most wickfrd an;i uw^wWy thin^<; and to enibnirr \.\\vm as th'inf;<t junt nnd lauda- 
 ble; wherr they do not only mil receive sound doctrine, hut hitKrIy pcrsrcute 
 •II those who do resist tint niadnejD of their will? I • • • 
 
 • What is It, think ^ou, to be drunk with the cup of Babylon, but froin 
 
 lon^ conversation with lier to he so infertc d with the ronlugion of lier, that, fol- 
 lowing^ the errin<f hr-rd, von willinf^ly embrace false things for true; perver»e for 
 righteous, Iliad tliin;;s for sound; nnd lo detire ratfier to h<' nind with the multi- 
 tude, than lo he wise alone with danpr«r and derision? He tlint is (hlleniit in man- 
 ners from thirm, ought not to live there, where the plague of rorruption hath lo 
 prevailed as to iiihrt all men with Its contagion." JVVc/io/aw* de ('lemattgit. 
 Episl. p. 177. 
 
 In his book of Simoniaeal Prelalea, ho says, cap. 1. 
 
 "The rhurrh i« now beroiiie a shop of iiierrliandize, or rather of robbery anH 
 rapine; in whirh all the sarranients are expood to sale. ■ • And 
 
 therefore, vou see siirli men admitted to the priesthoml nnd othf r hoi)- ordert, 
 who arc idiot*, unlearned, and srarre able (o read, th'ni^h wavwnrdlv, nnd with- 
 out understanding one salable after another, who know no more I.ntin, than 
 they do Arabic, who, wfien they read, pray, or sing, know not, whether they 
 bless God or blaiphcwe hiiu — men undisciplined, unquiet, gluttoni, dninkards, 
 
 33
 
 250 DEBATE o.^ Tna 
 
 prater*, ra<::abond», lustlul, bred up in luxury, and in one word, idle and igfuorant." 
 
 In his book of the corrupt state of the church, cap. 3. 
 
 "That Bhe w;is ileiiled with the sink of ail vices; and might be fitly called the 
 church if JUaliffyuinli; tliat tiie saying of llie prophet was now verified, that 
 from ihc least o/'lhcm to (lic furcates I, e\ cry one was given to covetousness; that 
 from the propliet to the priest, every one dealt falsely. * » » « 
 
 Who preaches or declares the gospel? Who either by word or deed shews the 
 way to life tternal .*'' 
 
 Aorain : 
 
 " \Vha( should I speak, (saith he) of the learning of the priests, when it is visible 
 that scarce any of them can read 7 They know not words, and much less things: 
 he of them that prayeth, is a barbarian to himself. If any man is idle and ab- 
 hors labor, if he loves luxury, he gets novv-a-days into the clergy, and then 
 presently he joins himself to the rest of the priests that are voluptuous, and live 
 according to Epicurus, rather than according to the laws of Christ. Cap. 25. 
 
 " Such (saith he) is the abundance of wicked men in all professions, that there 
 is scarcely one among a thousand, who sincerely doth what his profession doth 
 require; if there be any sincere, chaste, sober, frugal person, in any college or 
 convent, who doth not walk in the broad way, he is made a ridiculous fable to the 
 rest, and is continually culled insolent, mad, and hypocritical fellovv; so that 
 many who would have been good, had they lived with good and honest men, 
 are drawn by wicked company into their vices, lest they should suffer the fore- 
 mentioned reproaches among tiieir companions." Cap. 26. 
 
 He then concludes with an apostrophe to the Roman church, as 
 follows : 
 
 "What thiiikest thou of thine own propiiecy, the Revelations of St. John? 
 Dost thou not think they do at least, in part, belong to thee? Thou hast not 
 surely so wholly lost all shame as to deny this: look, therefore, into it, and read 
 the damnation of (his g'reat rohore, sitting upon many waters, and then contemplate 
 thy famous facts and future ruin." Deciarat. Defect. Virorum Eccl. 
 
 So testifies Nicolaus de Clemaugis, an archdeacon of the church of 
 Rome, in the fifteenth century. 
 
 Not only have the sins of Sodom and Egypt been multiplied in this 
 Babylon the great, but she had superadded to these the blood-guilti- 
 ness and cruelty of Jerusalem. Persecution is of the very essence 
 and spirit of the supremacy, not merely as the martyred millions of 
 Protestants, of every age, declare ; but according to the doctrine of the 
 church, and the oaths of her bishops. Every Roman Catholic bishop 
 is sworn to persecute heretics and schismatics : even this very gentle- 
 man has sworn to persecute and oppose heretics and schismatics to the utmost 
 of his power. This is no mere allegation. I will hereafter produce 
 the oath, and if it can be otherwise explained, I shall give him an op- 
 portunity to do it. Till then, I proceed to allege, further, that learned 
 Roman Catholics have tremblingly interpreted these prophecies, as 
 belonging to Rome papal. I have another witness here, in confirma- 
 tion of my speech, and with his testimony I shall close these remarks, 
 and proceed. 
 
 " Whence is it that tliis happened? to vnt, because all llesli had corrupted its 
 ways, we were all citizens and inhabitants not of the holy city Rome, that 
 wicked city; of which that of the prophet Isaiah is fulfilled, "How is the faithful 
 city become a harlot." Lf-t no man tiiinkthis prophecy has been fulfilled already 
 in the destruction of Babvlon, or Jerusalem. No! future things were present to • 
 the prophet's eye, and this the prophet hath declared to us. saying, " the daugh- 
 ter of Zion shall be left desolate, as in the wasting of the enemy. St. John 
 doth in the Revelations tell us, the daughter of Zion is not Jerusalem, but Rome; 
 and his description of her makes it plain: For the woman which thou sawest 
 (saith he) is tliat great city which hatn dominion over the kings of the earth, 
 that is spiritual dominion. She sits, saith he, upon seven hills, which properly 
 agrees to Rome, which u|)on this account, is styled septicolis. She is full, saith 
 lie, of the names of blasphemy — she is the niotheV of uncleanness, fornications.
 
 eoma:* catholic eeuoiox 251 
 
 and abomlnations.which are in the earth; than which words, no mart particular 
 demonstration of the city can be requisite, seeing these iniquities do olniost gen- 
 erally reign, yet here they have their seat and empire." Orat. habit, ad auditores 
 Rotar. Mali 15, A. D. 
 
 My friend is again on celibacy. But, really, I cannot return to 
 these matters as often as he chooses to explain away, or deny, or 
 otherwise dispose of, his own sayings and concessions. In this mat- 
 ter, as in a hundred others, it might suffice to show, that he differs 
 from both Peter and Paul, and all. the other apostles. For, as an 
 apostle of Christ, Paul says of himself and Barnabas, that they had a 
 right to have wives, ^^ sister-wives,^'' as well as the other apostles. In 
 this way Paul proves the point : " Have we not power to load about 
 with us a wife, as the other apostles have ] Or, are Barnabas and my- 
 self debarred this privileged" Such is the spirit and point of that 
 passage ; and excepting in time of public calamity, as Paul elsewhere 
 teaches, " Let every man have his own wife, and every woman her own 
 husband." So we teach. 
 
 The bishop owes an apology for speaking on a subject, which I 
 did not introduce for discussion. The whole merits of auricular con- 
 fession is not the question ; but the simple fact, that it is a tenet of the 
 party, growing out of a human rule of divine faith. I introduced it, to 
 be admitted or denied ; not now to be debated. The same is true of 
 transubstanliation. I introduced these institutions, as proof of the im- 
 moral nature and tendency of the Romanist rule of faith. I think it 
 almost enough to have these doctrines or institutions acknowledged in 
 this age and country, to prove that Roman Catholicism is not suscep- 
 tible of reformation ; and would be the same in this community as in 
 Spain, Italy, or Portugal, under similar circumstances. My friend 
 had the opportunity of a simple denial of these items at the moment, 
 if they were not parts of his system ; and he may have the full dis- 
 cussion of them again. 
 
 On the subject of confession, one word as to the quotations from 
 Episcopalians and Methodists. Would the gentleman wish you to 
 understand, that auricular confession is an ordinancf of those religious 
 communities, as taught and |)ractisod in his ehurcli ] If he does not, 
 where is the relevancy of these quotations! If he dors, wh<'re is tho 
 truth and candor] " Confess your/«ii//s to one another," will justify 
 any two or more persons mutually to confess to each other, and to pray 
 for one another ; but will he affirm, that Methodists and lOpiscopaiians 
 say to one another, "I absolve thee," at their mutual confessions? I 
 Why, then, I ask, seek to make Episcopalians and Methodists boar a 
 part of the sharnc of these unscriptural and sinful practices? They 
 disavow them : they would say to (Tic bishop, conless your faults to 
 us, and we will confess to you; hut on no oilier condition. We may 
 pray for you; we cannot forgive you. You may ])ray fur us; but you 
 cannot forgive us. I must, on this j)oint, read you another extract 
 from Smith's Synopsis of the works of Ligori, that you may sec what 
 justice my opponent renders to EpiRcopalians and Sirthodists, in his 
 alliancing them with himself on the suhjert of confession ; 
 
 " 1 he >di(il rontiiiuct thuit: St. I'hilip iVrriiM tiled to t> II lii< jiriiitinl*, that 
 they who dr»ire to projjrrM in thr way ol (Jod ulioiild tiiliiiiit tfiriim lv( « to • 
 Itarnedeorf Mtor, whom th«-y ihuiild obry at God. [ It tliii Mrtliodiiiii M llr nlio 
 thui actl will be ttmrr from Imvinf; to rrndrr Qri urcouiil of iny of hii ■rtiolii. 
 A ConftMor niuit br lirlicvpfj, bcraufc God will not iudsr him to err. Nothing 
 is (afer than to follow the will of oae'i dir«clor, aud uotliiag ii more daofcrout
 
 J252 DEBATE OX THE 
 
 than to be directed by one's own iudgnient. [Is this Episcopal'.anisni?] " If," 
 continues I-igoii, quoting from Gbssii, " a couiniandnunt bt doubtful, he who 
 acts in obedience to his confesaor is excused iVoin sin, although in truth, what 
 he does is sinful." [Is this Metliodisiu?] Quoting (lO'-u St. Dionysius, he has 
 the I'ollowing: " If there be o doubt whether what one is about to do is against 
 the coniniairdnient of God, we must obey the romniandment of our y)rt/a/e," 
 (bishop, priest or confessor,) " because, although what we do be against God, 
 nevertheless, on account of the virtue of obedience, we being subject to our 
 prelates do not sin." [Is this Kpiscopalianism?] — Id. ib. 
 
 " Let the confessor,' continues the saint, "strenuously insist upon the peni- 
 tent's obeying him, and if he refuses to obey, let him be sharply rebuked, be 
 deprived of communion, and let his obduracy be blunted as much as possible." — 
 Id. ib. N. 16. [Time expired.] 
 
 Twelve o'clock, M. 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 It was not heaven's holy oracles, but man's presumptuous freedom 
 with the word of God, that I ridiculed. It was my friend who ex- 
 posed the holy record to contempt; and afforded to infidels occasion 
 for triumph and insult, by forcing upon it his own preposterous inter- 
 pretations, and making it say wliat its divine Author never intended it 
 to say. I tell him again, in the very words of that sacred book, that 
 " no prophecy if scripture is of any private inlerprciulioit ,•" that these 
 blind who are '• leaders if the blind,'' and that " both fall into the pit i" 
 Matthew xv. 14. that, as Peter says, there are many things in the scrip- 
 tuns which my friend says are so very plain, hard to he nnderstood, which 
 the unlearned and uns'able icrest, as they do also the other scriptures to 
 their own destruction .- 2d Peter, ch. iii. v. IG ; finally, that "as there 
 were false prophets among the people, even so shall there be lying 
 teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who 
 bought them, bringing on themselvrs swift destruction, and many shall 
 follow thfir riotousncss, through whom the way of truth shall be evil 
 spoken of." Having exposed tlie scriptures, our le^.rncd friend gave 
 us a smart lesson in geography and chronology, proving, at least, one 
 point to my satisfaction, if not to his own, that we may err in a date, 
 place, person, or thing, the which he veritably hath done in his sym- 
 bolical dissertation. T may, but I will not, apply to him the figure of 
 Isaiah, "he has broken the eggs of asps, and may cat them; he hath 
 woven the ."spider's web, and may clothe himself with the filmy tex- 
 ture." Isaiah lix. 5. The fragile egg and filmy texture are proper 
 emblems of fickleness, inconstancy, and change of religion ; but in 
 ours there is neither mutability nor "shadow of vicissitude." 
 
 ISIy friend has taken us a fishing again; llic sea monster has dis- 
 colored the waters, and like the w^olf and lamb in the fable, he cliarges 
 upon me the troubling of the stream. There is no escape for tho 
 gentleman, '' I absolve tht<V are the very words of the Episcopalian 
 ritual in England ; and private and particular confession is practised 
 by the Metluidists in the United States. Even he, himself, admits 
 that the words "confess your sins to one another," will justify 
 (St. James and christians, ought to be much obliged to him.) 
 any two, or more, to confess to one another! What, then, does he 
 mean by denying and admitting, rejecting and adopting, every creed 
 and practice alternatclv 1 He blows hot and cold with the same 
 breath. St. Philip Ne'riu's gave wise directions on the decalogue, 
 and shewed that God, himself, could not authorize a violation of his 
 own laws, much less a confessor. Hence his advice—" obey your 
 
 1
 
 roma:? catholic religion. 253 
 
 covfessor as Cod,'''' was perfectly intelligible. I wish my friend would 
 study the saint's life, and he would find in it maxims and examples 
 well worthy of imitation, and nothing that could scandalize him. 
 
 My argument upon the subject of confession was perfectly pertinent ; 
 and the gentleman felt it — hinc illx lachrymso, — hence his charge of 
 irrelevancy. It was elaborately argued by him, that the practice was 
 immoral, and it behoved me to vindicate it, as I have done, by prov- 
 ing that it was authorized and commanded by scripture, practised by 
 the early church in its purity, and advocated by two of the most nu- 
 merous and respectable sects, viz. Episcopalians and Methodists. 
 Now, if my friend sajs, that persons in those communions never go 
 to confession, according to the discipline and ritual, it only proves 
 their inconsistency. Priests and bishops do confess, and that fre- 
 
 3uently. The more pious and sincere they are, the more faithfully 
 o they comply with the salutary ordinance. 
 We do not dissuade young people from marrying, we only regret 
 that those who arc called to that state, do not marry faster. What is 
 the object of all that tirade of abusive extracts against the Catholic 
 church? Must I have to read dissertations to my opponent on all the 
 humbugs, which his criticism has not been long enough at school to 
 detect] The book " i)e Curruplo Ecclcsise Slaiu,^^ was not written by 
 its putative autlior Nicolaus de Clamangis, who was secretary to the 
 anti-pope Benedict XIII. John De Chelm, James De CJcur, and John 
 of Bavaria, have had respectively the honor of a production of whicii, 
 its real author had reason to be ashamed. I wish my friend would spare 
 
 me the necessity of siich frequent exposure of his I won't say it. 
 
 Here are the complete works of i.igunri, in eight vohimes, with an 
 index consisting of one volume. I have performed a work of supere- 
 rogation. I have examined these voluines, from cover to cover, and 
 in none of them can so much as a shadow be found for the infamous 
 charge. I exonerate my friend from the sin of wilful misrej)rescnta- 
 lion, I will say he has Tleeri deceived, niislcd by — anti-ciirisi, perhaps, 
 who can deceive the elect, // possible, that is to say, if Vll lil him, 
 which 1 have, in this instance, no notion of doin^. The original tells 
 the truth. The translation lies. My friends, 1 Ijope that the same 
 audience, which is here now, will be here this evening, anil 1 pledge 
 myself, before the b<av<ns and the earth, that this iiasi- slander IS 
 what I call il. 'i'licrc is no foundation for it whatever in the works 
 of Liguori. On the contrary, in the place indicated, the severest 
 punishment, known to church discipline, is j)ronounced against the 
 ecclesiastic who violates the holy law; "Thou shait prrform unto the 
 Lord thine oath." Numbers xxx. 2 and seq. 
 
 I ktiow of no better viridieation of C/'atholic doctrines and jjractices, 
 than their simple and faithful announcement. It is the misrenresrn- 
 tation of our tenets that did us injury for times and a time and half a 
 timi!; but now the light from heaven is breaking. " Thou hast ap- 
 pointed daik'i'ss, and it is night, in il shall all tin- beasts of the earth 
 Sro about, — the mm riseth — and they shall lie do« ri in their dens." 
 's. ciii. -JO, 2iJ. 
 
 My learned opponent says the Tiber runs into the Mediterranean. 
 That is a fact, and so do the waters of a thousand nllier HtrenniK. Ho 
 says tluil I did not i»rove that there was a liead of tlie rhurcli in Rome 
 before Cnnstantine s lime. This I may hiinply ilcny; but liivc I not 
 quoted the testimony of genera! councils, of iho fathers, of numberless
 
 254 DEBATE OJ( TUE 
 
 appeals to Rome, of Pajrans, historians and emperors, to prove that, 
 now incontestible, fact? I refer to Eiisebius, and add one remark that 
 Eusebius was born in 270. His history extends to the year 324, the 
 epoch when Constantine was sole master of the Roman empire. Eu- 
 sebius narrated the belief of the whole church during the preceding 
 two hundred years, for no longer period had elapsed si[ice the death of 
 St. John — and Polycarp, Ignatius, Iren?eus, Caius, a Roman priest, 
 and Hegesippus, the ecclesiastical historian, lived in that interval. 
 Read Eusebius. My friend has now allowed that, for a long time, the 
 church of Rome was pure. This is true ; but when will he fnlfil his 
 promise at the opening of the debate and inform us, at last, from what 
 church she is an apostacy? We are coming near the end of the dis- 
 cussion and this is too important a point to he forgotten. 
 
 "The church formerly used the vernacular language." So she did. 
 And there was a very good reason for it. The Latin then was the ver- 
 nacular of the greatest part of the civilized world, in consequence of 
 the Roman conquests. It was generally known, where other lan- 
 guages continued to be the vernacular. St. Paul wrote to the Romans 
 in Greek, a language which all the Romans did not understand. My 
 friend Mr. Campbell has stated the very best reasons, in the preface to 
 his new Testament, for the adoption of a uniform language as the ve- 
 hicle of revelation. The learned Southey agrees, if not with him, at 
 least, with the Catholic church on the subject of its peculiar fitness to 
 be the language of the Christian Liturgy. 
 
 " Latin,'" sajs Southey, Vol. I. p. 59, " was made the language ofreligion ; there 
 had been the same reason for this in Italy, and Spain, and France, as for making 
 it the language of the laws; and in England also, there was reason, which, 
 though different, was not less valid. A common language was necessary for 
 the clergy, who considered themselves as belonging, less to the country, 
 in which they happened, individually to have been born, or stationed, than to 
 their order, or to Christendom, for in these ages Christendom was regardedas 
 something more than a mere name. No nionern language was as yet fix- 
 ed, or reduced to rules or regarded as awritttn tongue; of necessity, therefore, 
 Latin, in which the western clergy read the scriptures, and in which the fathers 
 of the western church had composed their works, and the councils had issued 
 their decrees, was every where retained as the natural and professional lan- 
 guage of the ministers ot religion. They preached and catechized, and confer- 
 red in the common speech ofthe country, and that the church service was not ver- 
 bally intelligible to the congregation was, upon their principles, no inconvenience. 
 
 But if, in this respect, there was no real disadvantage in the use of a foreign 
 tongue; in other respects many and most important advantages arose from it. 
 The clergy became of necessity a learned body; and to their humble and pa- 
 tient labors we owe the whole history of the middle ages, and the preservation 
 of those works of antiquity, which, for the instruction of all after ages, have been 
 preserved : The students at Canterbury in Bede's time, were as well skilled, both 
 in Latin and Greek as in their native speech; and Bede, himself (worthy to be 
 called venerable, if ever that epithet was worthily applied) had acc|uired all that 
 could pobsibly be learned from books, and, was master of what was then, the 
 whole circle of human knowledge." 
 
 The people have the substance, frequently the literal translation, in 
 their prayer books, of what the Priest reads, during the sacrifice, in 
 the ancient language of Catholic Europe. They know as well as the 
 priest, himself, does, to what they answer, ' Amen.' When a foreigner 
 from any ofthe countries where Greek is not the vernacular comes in- 
 to our churches, and I need scarcely except even the Catholics, of the 
 Greek rite, he is perfectly at home, among his brethren in faith and 
 worship. Their ceremonies _nd prayers are the same as in his native 
 land — Germans, French, English, Irish, Poles, Swiss, Italians, Per-
 
 boma:s catholic ueligion. 253 
 
 tuguese, like the Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven, we 
 hear our priests, as they did the apostles, speaking in a tongue which 
 we well may call our own, '* the wonderful works of God." The ser- 
 mons of our church are not preached in Latin, but in as plain English 
 as we can find in common use. 
 
 I have answered all I could note of the gentleman's remarks. I have 
 only two of my own to add at present. It is in reference to the asser- 
 tion of my learned opponent that monsters are always emblematical 
 of bad men or tyrants. Now what will my friend say of Ezekiel 1st 
 ch. " And I saw — and behold a whirlwind came out of the north 
 and a great cloud, and a fire infolding it, and brightness was about it; 
 and out of liie midst thereof, that is, out of the midst of the fire, as it 
 were the resemblance of Amber, and in the midst thereof the likeness 
 of four living creatures : and this was their appearance : there was the 
 likeness of a man in them. Every one had four faces, and every one 
 four wings. Their feet were straight ftet, and the sole of their foot 
 was like the sole of a calf's foot ; and they sparkled like the appear- 
 ance of glowing brass. And they had the hands of a man, under their 
 wings, on their four sides : and they had faces, and wings on their 
 sides. And I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many 
 waters, as ii were the voice of the most high God ; — This was the 
 vision of the likeness of the glory of the Lord." What will my friend 
 now^say of his monster theory 1 These animals are taken to h?ve 
 been figures of the four Evangelists, — or of all the Apostles. 
 
 My second remark is, that whoever has read Humes' or Lingard's 
 history of England, knows that the Ana-baplists when driven by arm- 
 ed soldiers out of the Parliament House, found in the famous Oliver 
 Cromwell, a perfect fac-sirnile of the Anti-Christ. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Three o'clock, P. M. 
 Mil. Campbei-I, ri.Hts — 
 
 There was one remark made liy my opponent, in his last speech, 
 and only one that had some a|)pr(>i)riatt' rt fcrenoe to my ninarks on 
 symbols. I'pon this remark, I will makr one amnnalioii. \\ hatevcr 
 else he has been j)lcased to say, may pass for what it is worth, tax free. 
 The gentleman asserts, that beasts of prey arc not always sym- 
 bolical of tyrants. Had I asscrlrd that proposition, it would havn 
 been in point to have made such a ninark : but iinfortunatcly for liim, 
 that was not my proposition. It was, that wlim (iod depicts a tyran- 
 ny, he selects sorne monster, or some savage wild beast to symbolizo 
 it. Hut is that identical with—" beasts of prey in symbolic languago 
 only represent tyrants V Or follows it from my proposition, that a lion 
 orancafTlemust«/(('tf_y.iand uniformly represent a tyrant] — I went far- 
 ther ancfsaid, that some savage wild beasts— some monster was (iod's 
 image of a sec\il;ir or eeelesiastic despotism. 'I'his was my explanation. 
 
 It"i^ true liiat a " lion," as well as a " lam!)" is api>lied to the Sa- 
 vior. He is the " Lion of the tribe of .liidah :" but Daniel's lion bad 
 wings, and rame from the sea. It was a monster. 
 
 The Roman spirit, in othiT words, the savagr; spirit of pagan and 
 papal Kome, has been imparted even to Prnlestant stales. In so much 
 that England has for her symlxd, or national device, a tawny lion; 
 and her sons have chosen iliejr own eagle, a ravenous bird of prey, 
 for their device, that they may pounce u;.:!i their mother's lion and 
 show themselves as full of war and stratagem and spoils, as the bar-
 
 256 DEBATE O.N THE 
 
 barous and uncivilized nations of the old pagan world. — Although I 
 prefer the American Eagle to tlio British Lion, I would rather fight 
 the battles of my king, under the device of a milk while dove, on an 
 azure flag, as more consonant to the genius of the Reign of heaven. 
 War, however, is wholly barbarous. Nations at war, are at best but 
 partly civilized, and, therefore, they generally choose beasts of prey 
 for their insignia. \Vhen we become more rational, more civilized, 
 and more christian, we will find some other way of settling our na- 
 tional disputes, than with the sword, and with the confused noise of 
 the warrior, and garments baptized in blood. 
 
 The gentleman asked, the other day, (and I know not whether 
 in the crowd of curious and impertinent matters introduced, 1 paid 
 any attention to it) — if God could make twelve men infallible, could 
 he not make as many more infallible as he pleased; and continue 
 them through all succeeding time ■?! Certainly he could, I answer: 
 but there is no philosophy in this question. I might retort, could not 
 God have made fourteen instead of seven primary planets ? and as 
 many satellites as he pleased 1 And the same answer would equally 
 suit both questions. We therefore answer by saying, that neither 
 the system of nature, nor the system of religion needs them. The 
 inspired twelve made a full revelation of christian truth. They taught 
 the whole religion : We need nothing more. If a full and explicit 
 development, is once made, and carefully preserved ; ten thousand 
 apostles could not perfect the christian system, by adding a new idea. 
 
 My friend gave me a challenge the other day : I think I have ac- 
 cepted it : he now adds from some new source, or repeats, I know 
 not which, " If the testimony of tradition be not infallible how can 
 you know the Bible to be inspired ?" This, together with his repeated 
 assertion that Protestants believe in the bible on the same testimony 
 he offers for the succession of Peter, &c.; I reserved for my sixth pro- 
 position, which, because of the advanced state of the discussion, as 
 respects time, is likely to be crowded into a corner, I therefore beg 
 permission to introduce it at this time. 
 
 " Prop. V'I. JNotwilhstuiulinglitr pittensions to liave given us the Bible, and 
 faith in it, neare pcii'cciiy indepencJeiit ol' hei- for our knowledge of that book, 
 and its evidences of a duiii:: original. 
 
 The Roman Catholic says, as the bishop has himself averred, " I 
 believe in the Holy Catholic church :" but this phrase needs a general 
 council to explain it. Does it mean, I believe Ihe Catholic church; 
 or, I believe in the (.^atholic church 1 Do they confide in it for salva- 
 tion, or only believe what it believes ; and because it believes it? It is 
 ambiguous. The " fides carbonaria" is thus expressed : " I believe 
 what the church believes; and the church believes what I believe ; 
 and we both believt; the same thing." Or, as repeated the other 
 day, the Roman Catholic believes the bible on the authority of the 
 church, and the church on the authority of the bible ! But the Chris- 
 tian is commanded and expected to be always ready to give a reason 
 for the faith that is in him. God is reason; and every communica- 
 tion from him is rational ; and as man is a reasonable being, lie must 
 have good reasons to offer for his believing the christian religion. 
 When you ask a Roman Catholic the reason of his faith, what does 
 he answer? His father told him that the Roman Catholic was the 
 true church. 'J'he same reason would justify any one for being a 
 Jew, a Turk, or an infidel. He that is of the order of Ali or Omar,
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 257 
 
 has then, as good a reason to give for his faith in the Koran, as any 
 Romanist has to give for his faith in the bible, if his answer to the 
 question, ' why do you believe ?' is, Because my father, or the /iturque, 
 or the church told me it teas so. I would, indeed, be gratified to learn 
 from my opponent, Dr. Purcell, why he would not have had as good 
 reason for believing in the Koran, as he has for being a Roman Ca- 
 tholic, on the ground cf mere tradition, had he happened to have been 
 born in Turkey ? There must be an examination of the testimony, 
 and perception of its truth, on its own intrinsic excellence; or, a con- 
 viction of its truth upon the evidence which it affords; else there is no 
 reason in faith — it is mere credulity, or superstition. 
 
 The first, and characteristic difference, between the Protestant and 
 the Roman Catholic, is this: the former believes the scriptures first, 
 and the church afterwards ; whereas, the latter believes the church 
 first, and ihe scriptures afterwards. " But," says the bishop, "where 
 does the Protestant get the bible to believe, but through the church T" 
 And that first brings us to tlie proposition. 
 
 If any person hand me a book, and I read it, and believe it, does my 
 faith in it necessarily rest upon him who hands it to me 1 And, yet, 
 this is the gigantic strength of ail that my opponent can say on this 
 subject. It would be much more plausible, that the Protestants are 
 indebted exclusively to the Roman Catholic church for the book, if 
 Protestants believed all the Roman Catholic traditions, as well as the 
 bible : hut, while we reject ihe apocrypha, and the tradiiions of popery, 
 and receive the bible only, this fact will answer a thousand volumes of 
 sophistry, in proof that our faith in the bible, rests not upon the author- 
 ity of the church of Rome. The fact, that we reject her apocryphal 
 bible and testament, with all other traditions of Roman Catholics, an- 
 cient and modern, resting solely upon her authority, and that we re- 
 tain the bible, (one version of which she has,) is incontestable proof, 
 tliat we receive the bible on other authority than her traditions. Dis- 
 pose of this fart who may, I affirm that my opponent never can ! This 
 illustrious and indispu'.ai)lc f-'f'. places in bold relief the irrelevancy 
 of his eflTort to show, that our faith in the bible, and his belief in Pe- 
 ter's Roman diocese, or in his being bishop of Rome, rest upon the 
 same authority. That I must believe a letter on the authority of him 
 who carries it, or a book on the authority of him who puts it in my 
 hand, is another of the assumptions of the chunh of encroiichmcnts, 
 resting upon Peter's having been bishop of Rome. 
 
 (•0(1 created both the sun and the human eye, and he has adapted 
 them to each other. He created the human understamling and the 
 bible, and adapted them to each otht.-r. The honest sluduni <if nature 
 needs no tradition to prove that man made not the sun ; iieiiher does 
 the hurnblr and candid student of the bible, need atiy witness from the 
 bishops or church of Rome, that thr>y did not make the bible. She is, in- 
 deed, a witness for the bible, and the true church, somewhere elHf ex- 
 isting than in her own cotnmunion : for, had it not heeii for her rivals, 
 who, like Ar(»U8, have ever watched the sarrerl i( xl, how it would 
 have been interpolated and corrupted, her editions of the priiniiivr fa- 
 thers, and other books of which she was the sole or chief deimstory, 
 abundantly declare. But, having fixed the dale, not merely of the first 
 pope, but of ttu! granrl scbiHin whieh originated the Roman Catholic 
 church, 1 hasten, with all despatch, to ulfjw that we have rupies of the 
 w 2 33
 
 2vVS nEUATi; o.\ thk 
 
 bible more ancient than tlio grand schism, more ancient tlian the firHt 
 jiopo : nay, that were written before tlie question ot" a supreme head 
 nep^nn to be discussed ; and wiiicli copies, in the form of transcription, 
 Iiave never l)een soiled by the fingers of a 'monk. I read but a few 
 documents, as I have but little time for this Subject; but I read them 
 from a source of biblical authority, which, on thesje points, has not 
 been, and, I presume, will not be, dispiited ; " Home's Introduction: 
 " Of the lew iiinatijcripts known to be t\tuiit, whidi contain the Greek Scrip- 
 tures (tliat is, tlu' Old Testament, nccoi-ding tu the Septuagint version, and the 
 New Testament) there are two wliirh ])re-emincntiy 'lemancl the attention of 
 the Biblical stuilent lor their antifinity ami intrinsic value, yiz. The Alexandrian 
 manuscript, which is prescrrcd in the iiritish nmseum, and the Vatican manuscript, 
 deposited in the library of the \ atitan I'alace at Koine. 
 
 I. TheCuDKX Al.KXANnRlNUS, or Alexandrian manuscripts, which is noted by 
 the letter A in Wetstein's and Gricsbach's critical editions of the New Testa- 
 ment, consists of four foTio volui'ncs; the three first contain the whole of the Old 
 Testament, together with the Apocryphal books, and the Iburth comprises the 
 New Testament, the (irsl epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, and the Apoc- 
 ryphal psalms ascribed to Solomon. In ti)e New Testament there is wanting the 
 beginning as lar as Matth. xxv. 6. = vj^yu,- ifx.Txi- likewise from John vi. 50. to 
 viii. 52. and from the 2 Cor. iv. 13. to xii. 7. [This maniiscripl is now preserved 
 in the IJritish museum, where it was deposited in 17.73. ft was sent as a present to 
 king Charl.,s I. from Cyrillus Lucaris, a native of Crete, arid patriarch of Con- 
 stantinople, by Sir Thomas IJowe, ambassador from Kngland to the Grand Seign- 
 ior, in the year 1(J28. ('yrillus brought it with him from Alexandria, where, 
 probably, it was written. In a schedule annexed to it, he gives this account; 
 that it was written, as tradition informeil them, by Thecia, a noble Egyptian 
 HlIv, about thirteen hundred years ago, a little after the council of Nice. He 
 adds that the name of Thecia at the end of the book was erased; but that this 
 was the case with otli< r books of the christians, alter Christianity w'as extin- 
 guished in Kgvpt by the Mohammeilans: and that recent tradition records the fact 
 of tiie laceration and < rasure of Theela's name. The proprietor of this manuscript, 
 bel'ore it came into the hands of C) rilius Lucaris, had written an .\rabic sub- 
 scription, expressing that this book was said to ha\e been written with the pen 
 of Thecia the martyr." [Introduction to the critical study and knowledge of 
 the Ilolv Scriptures, by Thomas Hart^vell Home. \ ol. II. pp. 66, 67. 
 
 But, this is not the only «7>/e-papislical manuscript of the scripture, 
 now extant. 
 
 II. "TiiK CoDEX V'aticanus, No. 1209, which Wetstein and Grie.sbach 
 have bot:i noted with the letter B, contests the palm of anliciuity with the Alex- 
 andrian manuscript. No fac-simile of it has ever been published. The Roman 
 edition of the Septnagint, printed in 1590, professes to exhibit the text of this 
 manuscript; and in the prel'ace to that edition it is stated to have been written 
 before the year 387, i. e. towards the close of the 4th century: Montfaucon 
 and Blanchini refer it to the 5th or 6th century, and Du Pin to the 7th cen- 
 tury. Prof* ssor Hug has endeavored to shew that it was written in the early 
 part of the fourth century; but, from the omission of the Eusebian xuxKxi^ and 
 Tirxoi, Bishop Marsh concludes with great [)robabilil_v, that it was written be- 
 fore the close of the fifth century. The Vatican manuscript is written on parch- 
 ment or vellum in uncial or capital letters, in three columns on each page, all of 
 which are of the same size, except at the beginr.ing of a book, and without any 
 divisions of chapters, verses, or words, but with accents and spirits. The shape 
 of the letters, and color of the ink, prove that it was written tnroughout by one 
 and the same careful copyist." Id. ib. p. 74. 
 
 There are also versions olddr than the papacy, older than the Vul- 
 gate, which is itself evidently oldef than the church of Rome. 
 
 "Syria being visited at a very early period by the preachers of the christian 
 faith, several translations of the sacred volume were made into the language of 
 that country. The most celebrated of these is the Peschito or Literal {Versio 
 ■Simplex,) as it is usually called, on account of its very close adherence to the 
 Hebrew text, from which it was immediately made. The most extravagant as- 
 icrtioni have been advanced concerning it* antiquity, some referring it to the
 
 boma:< catholic RELiciort. 259 
 
 t'lme of Solomon and Hiram, while others ascribe it to Asa, the priest of Saraa- 
 ritaiis, and a third class, to the apostle Tliaddeus. This last tradition is receiv- 
 ed by the Syrian churches; but a more recent date is ascribed to it b_v modern 
 biblical philologers. Bishop Walton, Carp/cov, Lcusden, Bishop Louth, and 
 Dr. Kennicotl, dx its date to the first centurv ; Bauer, and some other German 
 critics, to the second or third century: Jahn fixes it at tlie latest, to the second 
 century; De Rossi pronounces it to be very ancient, but does not specify any 
 precise date. The most probable opinion is- that of Michaelis, who ascribes it to 
 the close of tlie first or to tiic ca^li.r part of the second century, at which time 
 the Syrian churches llourisiied most, and the christians at Kdessa had a teinplo 
 for divine worship erected after tiie model of ihat at Jerusalem: and it is not to 
 be supposed that they woull be witliout a version of the old Testament, the 
 reading of which liad been introduced by the-apostles." Id. ib. pp. Ifi7, 1C8. 
 
 " An important accession to biblical literature was made a few years since, by 
 the late learned and excellent Dr. Bucliannon, to whose assiduous hibors the 
 British church in India is most deeply indebted: and who, in his progress 
 among the I.yna churches and Jews of India, discovered and obtained nume- 
 rous ancient manuscripts of the scriptures, which are now deposited in the pub- 
 lic library at Cambridge. One of thise, «liich was discovered in a remote Syri- 
 an church near the mountains, is particularly valuable: it contains the old and 
 new Testaments, engrossed with beautiful accuracy in the Eslransrcic (or old 
 Svriac,) character, on strong vellum, in large folio, and having three colunms in 
 a'page. The words of every book are numbered: and the volume iiluniinatcd, 
 but not after the Kuropcan manner, the initial letters having no ornament. 
 Though somewhat injured by time or neglect, the ink being in certain places 
 obliterated, still the letters can, in general, be distinctly traced from the in)- 
 prtss of the pen, or from the partial C9rosion of the ink. The Syrian churcii as- 
 signs a high dale to this manuscript, which in the opinion of Mr. Veates, who 
 has published a collation ol the Pentateuch, was written about the seventh 
 century. In looking over this manuscript, Dr. Buihannan found the- very first 
 ♦men<ratioii of the Tiebrew te.\t proposed by Dr. Keunicut, which doubtless is 
 the true reading. Id. ib. |). 189. 
 
 Now, if we of the west of Europe, did receive tlie bitde first from 
 our Roman Catholic ancestors, I ask, would thai make us dependent 
 on tlieir traditions alone for that book ; any more tiian A. 13., who 
 lived on one of the seven mouths of the Nile, from wiiieh lie supplies 
 himself with water, was, on that account, absolutely depeiidi iil on llic 
 branch nearest his dwelling. Tell him that he is absolutely and alono 
 dependent on it for water ; and he will say, " No; but it is more coji- 
 venicnl to supply my.self from this stream: there are six oilier braneh- 
 e.s, from which 1 could supply mys(-lf, were it necessary for my life or 
 comfort." So say we. We have .lews, (Jreeks, Armenians, and Pro- 
 te.slants, from llie firsl schism, A. D. '250, down to tlie present day; 
 to say notbinfj of the ancient sceptics, ('elsus, I'orpbyry, .lulian, and 
 others ; and the ancient heretics, from whpse wrilintrH, tojrellier with 
 those of the infidel jiajrans, we could almosl compile a New Teisla- 
 ment, containiii(f every thing read, not ojily since, but before the eo\in- 
 cil of Laodicea. l)u Pin himsejf acknowledges, that before that coun- 
 cil, even in the third century, l|ip scriptures were read as they are now. 
 But, as for our independence of all Roman Catholic tradition, on this 
 subject, many other proofs may be offered. The nolorioim and irlorioiiH 
 fart', however, that I.'rotestanl.s have rejected the Uomaii Calboiic rule 
 of faith, apocrypha, traditions, and all, and even her own vuljrnte, na 
 authentic, will for ever frown r.ui of countenance, the prnundless im- 
 putations of my loo ciedulouH opponent. [Time expired.] 
 
 Ilulfpml .T oV/.,r/,, /'. M. 
 Bidiior PinrEi.i, ri»e» - 
 
 My friends, have you ever Hccn the Anti-Christ 1 Look at him now 
 (holding up a book.) This morning, I endeavored to shew ihot Ma-
 
 260 DEBATE ON TnE 
 
 hommed was the fittest beast, to illustrate the mysterious prophecy; 
 and 1 stated that many names (foiirit'cii) could Ix: Ibun i to correspond 
 with the numbers 6Gt». I iiow distinctly shew the pige and book, 
 where the computation is made and the last of these names is that ot" 
 God himself. Cerdenus, a Greek writer, testifies thil llio name of 
 M ihommed, as it was written in his time, will exactly spell the beast. 
 On this suhject, llie reader who is not content with the article, Anti- 
 Christ, in Robinson's Calmet, may refer to Walmesley's General His- 
 tory of the Christian church, p. 250. 
 
 I do not give my own theory of the matter. There have been too 
 many theorists already, to need more. I bi lieve the beast was neither 
 Luther, nor Mahommed, nor the pope. Tiiis is not an article of faith 
 with me, nor with any Catholic. 1 respect the prophecy, but I await 
 to decide the questions until ' Revelations' be what the term imports. 
 I have here a history of the popes, in French, published, as the title 
 page says "at the expense of the holy Father.'' Of course it is to be 
 understood to be a hoax, and it deserves to be so considered. It tells 
 a heap of lies about him ; among others he was to be destroyed for ever 
 in 1745. We may then write his epitaph. 
 
 I do not know on what grounds my friend asserted yesterday, that 
 the 2nd. commandment was not a part of the Catholic rule of morals. 
 I have already exhibited various catechisms, in use in the United 
 States, in all of which, every word of the commandments is found. ^ 
 suppose my friend overlooked the fact. I was glad to hear the gentle- 
 man speak so highly of Michaelis. it showed his literary knowledge; 
 and perhaps he may be interested in knowing that when but one edi- 
 tion of his works could be obtained in Paris, in 1824, I procured it. 
 Here it happens !)y a singular coincidence, unknown to liim, to be. I 
 invite him to examine in it the commandments, and he will find them 
 fully and faithfully rendered in every Catholic Bible and Testament. 
 Will my friend tell the andience when the mazorelic points, without 
 which the understanding of the Bible, if not impossible, is very diffi- 
 cult, were first introduced ? and by whom ? 
 
 Do all Bible readers know, as they ctvghX to know, that in the old 
 Hebrew Bible, there is no division of verses, much less of chapters? 
 That a Roman Catholic cardinal had a good deal to do in iriaking the 
 division — and that they were not Protestants, but Rabbis, who suffixed 
 the points which serve instead of vowels to Hebrew words, which 
 have none but consonants alone ; accordingly, as these vowels are 
 placed, the Hebrew root may signify whatovei- the poiiHer pleases? 
 The context of the oldest known moaning mu3t be the only criterion. 
 But I should like to know how one of our good, plain, homebred and 
 industrious citizens can accomplish 'bis task for himself. Even learn- 
 ed men made themselves ridiculous by their mazorelic fixtures and 
 translations, and Luther, who was a good Catholic scholar — laughing 
 at the absurdity of their versions of passages in the Bible — observed 
 that "In the beginning the cuckoo ate the sparrow and the feathers," 
 would be just as good a translation of the first line of Genesis, as some 
 of theirs. I will return to this subject. 
 
 It appears that Birds and Beasts of prey may represent peace, as 
 well as cruelty. England then suffers no disparagement from her 
 Lion, nor the United States, fVom h:r Eagle. The gentleman sug- 
 gests a dove for the latter. 1 have not the slightest objection, and if
 
 nO>IAN CATHOLIC EELIOIOX. 261 
 
 the criticism I have heard be correct, the bird lately stamped on the new 
 American coin resembles a chicken, more than a bird of prey. It looks 
 as if it were more to be preyed upon than preying, and more sinned 
 ajainst than sinningr. 
 
 Before I come to the very important point of the Bible, I must not 
 forget to quote the testimony of the eloquent Southey, to shew what 
 anii-Christs the popes were, and how they displayed their anti-christ- 
 ian spirit, in the conversion of Old England. 
 
 " '1 hat (jiegoiy, who was alterwards raised ta the popedom, and is distin- 
 guished from succeeding- popes of the same name (one alone tucepted,) by 
 the rank of saint, and from him, by the appellation of the Great, was one day 
 led into the niarket-plare at Rome, with a great concourse of persons, to look 
 at a large importation of foreign merchandise, which had just arrived. Among 
 other articles, there were some boys exposed for sale lilce cattle. There was 
 nothing remarkable in this, for it was the custom evtry where in that age, and 
 had been so from time immemorial: but he was struck by the appearance of the 
 boys, their 6ne clear skins, the beauty of their llaxen or golden hair, and their 
 ingenuous countenances; so that he asked from what country they came; and 
 when lie ivas told from the island of Britain, where the inhabitants in general 
 were of that complexion and comeliness, he inquired if the people were chrit- 
 tians, and sighed for compassion at hearing that they were in a state of Pagan 
 
 darkness From that day the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons became a 
 
 favorite object with Gregorj' Accordingly he despatched thither 
 
 forty missionaries Irom a monastery, which he had founded at Rome 
 
 When, therefore, Augustine (who was their chief) and his companions landed 
 in the isle of Thanet, they came not as obscure men, unprotected and unaccred- 
 ited ; but with recommendations from the kings of !•" ranee, and as messengers 
 from a potentate, whose spiritual authority was acknowledged and obeyed 
 throughout tiiat part of the world, to which the northern nations were accus- 
 tomealo iDok as the seat of empire and superior civilization. They made their 
 arrival known to Ethelberl, ami requested an audience. They approached in 
 procession, bearing a silver crucifix, and a portrait of our Savior, upon a ban- 
 ner adorned with gold, and chaunting the litany. The king welcomed them cour- 
 teously, and ordered them to be seated: after which, Augustine stood up, and, 
 through an interpreter, whom he had brought from France, delivered the pur- 
 port of his mission, in a brief, but well ordered and impressive discourse. He 
 was come to the king, and to that kingdom, h<' said, for their eternal good, a 
 messenger of good tidings; ofl'ering to their acceptance perpetual happincu, 
 here and hereafter, if they would accept his ^vords. The Creator and F{edeemer 
 had opened the kingdom of heaven to the human race: for (lod no loved iho 
 world that he had sent into it his only son, as that son himself tentificd, to be- 
 come a man among the children of men, and sufler death upon the cros», in 
 atonement for their sinl. That incarnate divinity had been made manifcHt by 
 innumenible miracles. Cliribt had stilled the winds and wuv««, and walked upon 
 the waters: he hud healed (liseasei, and restored the dead to life: finnllv, he had 
 risen from the dead liinnelf, that we might rise again ihroUKh him, iiml hud ni- 
 cendcd into heaven, that he might receive us then' in his g1i>ry; and he would 
 come again to judge both tlie quirk and the dead. " 'I'hink not," he proceeded, 
 "O most excellent king, that we are superstitious, because we have come from 
 Rome into thy dominions, for the sake of the sidvation of llue and of thy peo- 
 ple; we have clone this, being conslrain«(l liy great lov«': for that which ive de- 
 liire, above nil the nom[)s aiirlili lights of this world, is to have our fel!i)W-cren- 
 tiires partakers with ourselves in the kingdom of h< :i\en, A;i-." [Southey'" Hook 
 of the Cliurrh. chiip. iii. p. Xi. etc. 
 
 My frif-nd proposed a question, which In; thought difTicult, Why 
 do I believe the bible 1 He paid my answer would be, because tho 
 church believes it; and this, he sayw, in like I'etcr uivinp a rbararter 
 to Paul, and Paul to I'cier. I reciprocate the qurHiion of the gentlo- 
 man, and he says he believes in the church, becauM; he believes in iho 
 bible. Thus the bible and church testify to each other in his theory, 
 and the difiiculty i.s infnuteiy greater for u Prolcslanl, than for a Ca-
 
 a62 DEJLVTE ON THE 
 
 tholic. In fact, for a Catholic tlio question is not susceptible of any 
 difficulty, whatever. One word will shew that we are ripht. Which 
 Was priori The bible or the church 1 Manifestly, the bible was the 
 older. The apostles did not wait to have thousands of bibles copied, 
 and to freight vessels with them, and sail as supercargoes of the hea- 
 venly merchandise, to the distant nations of the earth. " /«i7//," says 
 St. Paul, '' comes front hearing.'''' There were millions of converts to 
 Christianity, whole nations were converted to the Savior, by preach- 
 ins;, before the different books composing the present bible, were de- 
 termined to be genuine Scripture and collected into one volume. This 
 was not done before the beginning of the fourth century. The church 
 was therefore prior to the bible : and if ihe bible had never been writ- 
 ten, the gospel could have been preached and believed, as it was in 
 the early ages, without its aid. How did the apostles make converts 
 without the bible"? They addressed themselves to the reason of the 
 unconverted nations. They convinced them, if necessary, of the ex- 
 istence of God, by the spectacle of the divine wisdom and power, dis- 
 played in t.he creation and preservation of the world. They appealed 
 to the natural law, whose precepts were written by the finger of God, 
 on tablets of flesh, the hearts of men, before they were engraven on 
 stone, amidst the thunder and lightnings of Sinai. Thus did they 
 find the great primary truths of natural religion, with regard to 
 both doctrine and morals, inculcated by the contemplation of the 
 visible wonders of creation and the testimony of the human heart. 
 They next proceeded to convince their hearers of the unity of God, 
 and the sinfulness and grossness of idolatry, of their having departed 
 from the moral law, of the darkness in which sin had involved the 
 human race, of our incompetency for our own cure, of the divine com- 
 miseration of our misery, of the descent of .Tesus Christ, his doctrine, 
 liis miracles, his charily, his establishment of his church, his sacra- 
 ments and the various means of grace, his promises to be with his 
 apostles. He and his Holy Spirit, for ever, his death, &c. The holiness 
 of the apostles' lives, the cruel death with which they sealed the truth 
 they had proclaimed, conciliated the belief and coinpleted the conversion 
 of their hearers. '' I willinglfi,'" says Paschal, " helin-e the witnesses,,^ 
 who let their throats be cut to attest tfie truth of what they (leclar£" TliC 
 bible could not shed its blood to attest its divine oriffin. The ignorant, 
 who are a large proportion of the human race, could not read it; the 
 learned, and the pious, and the sincere, as every one knows, fourid it 
 a task far above their strength, to distinguish genuine from spurious 
 scripture. Before the invention of printing, men could iiot procure 
 bibles : since the invention of printing, they read them to introduce a 
 flood of new sects; so that there are now as many religions, almost, 
 as there are different versions or different readers of the scriptures. If, 
 on the contrary, there is anything clearly taught in the scriptures, it is 
 the authority of the church, which, without aid from the bible, not all 
 composed when the first apostles preached, had fully established her 
 authority, and, independ. nfly of her miracles, proved, by the preter- 
 natural success of her preaching, that God was indeed with her, as he 
 had promised, teaching all nations, and perpetually suggesting to her 
 all truth. Hence, we believe in the church first; and on the faith of 
 the evidences which I have enumerated, we believe in the bible, which 
 the church presents to us, vouching for its purity and authenticity. •
 
 R03LVX CATHOLIC RELIOIOX. 263 
 
 The bible obtained, sanctions the authority of the church, and confirms 
 our faitii. Here, nil is consistent, and onr submission to the church is 
 reasonable. The Protestant divines. Hooker and Chillingworth, allow 
 that the bible cannot bear testimony to itself: even Luther was forced 
 to acknowledge it. " We p.re obliged," says he, " to yield many 
 things to the papists ; that with them is the word of God, that we re- 
 reived from tlierh ; otherwise, we should have known nothing at all 
 about it." (Comment on John, c. 16.) Hence the remarkable saying 
 of St. Augustine : " I should not believe the gospel itself, if the 
 Catholic church did not oblige me to do so." Will my friend inform 
 me, why lie rejects an authentic work, of great excellence, written by 
 iSt. Barnabas ; who is termed, in scripture, an apostle, and declared to 
 be full of ihe holy Ghost, (Acts xiv. 24> xL 21 ;) and receives, as 
 canonical, parts of the New Testament, which were not written by 
 apostles at all, viz. the gospels of St. .Mark and St. Luke ? The original 
 text of Moses, and the ancient prophets, was destroyed witli the tem- 
 ple and city of Jerusalem, by the Assyrians under Nebuchadnezzar; and 
 the authentic copies which replaced them, perished, in the persecution 
 of Anliochns. How were these books restored? Paul wrote his 
 E|)istle to the Romans, and entrusted it to the deaconess Pli(Hbe. His 
 Epistle to the Ephesians, he confided to the disciple Tychicus. How 
 tan we be sure ot these epistles, as they now stand in the 'J'estamentT 
 "Was il not the corruption of the bible by Queen Elizabeth's bishops, 
 that caused James L to iiave a new translation to be made 1 Hut, 1 
 should be endless, if I enumerated all the insurmounlahle difficulties, 
 which a Protestant encounters at the very first step of his journey in 
 quest of a religion. lie muxt turn Catkolic al the vert/ inihrl, nud tuhc 
 ihe bt'blf, a« he ffc/n it, on nnlhiirili/, or remain an unbeliever all hi.t life. 
 And he nntsl believe that atilhurili/ lo lir infallible, or he ean never be sure 
 thai Ihe bible il i^ives him is divine. (Jalholics have faith by baptism, as 
 Protestants have ; but the latter lose it when they adojit, on arriving 
 at mature age, the Protestant princijile, that every man must find out 
 his reIi<rion for himself, from the bible. Many Protestants are not ad- 
 monished of tiif danger of their siiuaiion, and do not themselves reflect 
 Oti these difriculties. As long as they an; sincere, and do the best lliey 
 can lo obey (iod and conscience, the Catholic church excuses them, in 
 the words of St. .\ugustine: " Let those treat you harshly, who know not 
 how hard it is to get rid of old prejudices. Let those treat you harshly, 
 who have not learned how very hard it is \o purify the interior eye, and 
 render il cHj)able of contemplating the sun (jl the soul, truth. Itut, as 
 to us : we are far from this disposition towanls persons who arc separ- 
 ated from us, not by errors of their own invention, but by their being 
 entangled in those of others. We are so far from this disposition, that 
 we pray to (iod, that in reliiliiig the false (jpiiiious of tlinse whom you 
 follow, not from malice, but from im|>rndeii(-e, he would bestow iijion 
 us that spirit of peace, which feels no other sentiment than charily, no 
 oilier interest than that of Jesus Christ, no other \Visli but for your 
 salvation." Had wc been born Maliommedans, we wonid, perlr.ips, 
 live MahommedaiiH. Thank (Iod, we are iioL IJnt, this lioeK not re- 
 quire us to throw away our laitb. It would be too lf>ng lo notice nil 
 the genlleiiian says. I attend to the most important. 
 
 Now, I will vrnturo to assert, that ihern is not a Protestant in this 
 house, who can say, that he has foufid oul all the tenets which lie be-
 
 264 DEBATE ON THB 
 
 lieves, by readings the bible alone. He believes them, because his 
 parents, and teachers, and minister, his catechism, taught them ; 
 or a hundred other influences may have been brought to bear upon his 
 mind and his affections, favorable to those peculiar tenets. It is not at 
 all the case with Protestant children, any more than with Catholic chil- 
 dren, that reason is the first to lead them to their belief. Let each one 
 candidly examine his own heart, and ask himself if he was not as 
 much educated in those doctrines which he now professes, as the Cath- 
 olics were in theirs. 
 
 How can he be sure, if he indeed possess an authentic copy of the 
 scriptures, that he understands them 1 " The word of God," says the 
 Protestant bishop, Walton, " does not consist in mere letters, whether 
 written or printed, but in the sense of it; which no one can better in- 
 terpret than the true church, to which Christ committed this same 
 pledge." (Polyglot. Proleg. ch. v.) 
 
 My opponent says, there was a copy of the scriptures found, which 
 the fingers of a monk had never soiled. And how does he go about to 
 establish this proposition ! He quoted Home. I will take up this 
 very v.ork, and prove, while I admit that Home was a learned writer, 
 that he fell into some very unlearned blunders. But how does Home 
 say that my friend is right? He says, that this very manuscript was 
 found in one of the twenty-two monasteries of Mount Athos ! ! Lo ! 
 there was a monk at the bottom of it after all ! [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 Mr. Campbell rises — 
 
 My friends, there is any thing but order in our discussion — I mean 
 logical order, as respects the duties of a respondent. Now, certain- 
 ly, this will abundantly appear in the report of this debate. 
 
 The gentleman has not once, as yet, replied to my speeches in regu- 
 lar sequence ; but, after the interval of a night, a day, and sometimes 
 two days, he responds to some point or argument: and then his re- 
 ply consists either in accusing me of misunderstanding, or misstating 
 wliat he has said ; or perhaps in denying my authorities, or by intro- 
 ducing some extract, or tradition, or opinion, from some great Pro- 
 testant, or some good Catholic, or some excogitation of his own. 
 His last speech was a happy illustration of Ovid's 
 
 " congpstaque ebHeni — 
 Non bene junctarum discordia seniina rerum." 
 
 [Metamor. lib. I. 
 
 And, certainly, his mirthfulness and gravity were in unison with 
 the dignity of his reply; and equally fallible as respects effect of any 
 sort upon his audience. This rhetoric soon wears out. It is but an 
 echo, a sound, a shadow ; the crisis calls for something more solid. But 
 if it cannot be found, I must submit to interruption, and turn aside to 
 notice the gleanings of his last and best reflections upon the prophecies. 
 
 The gentleman has given us from his library some ridiculous puns 
 upon the name of Mahomet. He does not, and under his hard desti- 
 ny he cannot, always discriminate the precise point in debate. It is 
 not about the name of an individual, such as Ludovicus, or Maho- 
 met; but of a people — a community — a kingdom. His second mis- 
 take is, that if it were a personal name, the number of the name of 
 Mahomet as given in his example only makes 502. His name pro- 
 perly written is equal to only 463. He ought also to have decipher-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 265 
 
 ed, or his author, whether his name should be taken as il is written 
 in Arabic or in Greeii. But whether he take it i:i Arabic or in Greek, 
 it will not in Grecian numerals, and ccrtainl}' not in Arabic, equal 
 6G(j. So fails his effort at both reason and ridicule to dispone of this 
 morning's arorument from prophecy. I again repeat, that on this point, 
 as en every other, my argument appears unassailable. 
 
 Yesterday my opponent was asked, where infallibility resided ; to- 
 day he answers by asking, where shall we find the mind ? In the 
 head, stomach, hands, feet, or where? This is not a parallel case. 
 The question is, as usual, mistaken, or misapplied. It is, where is 
 the mouth of infallibility 1 when I desire an infallible response, where 
 shall I hear iti Where is the tongue of infallibility ? If the church 
 possess infallibility and never decides a question by any organ — ne- 
 ver can utter an answer, it is worth no more than a diamond in the 
 depths of the Atlantic, 
 
 The alpha and omega of the proofs offered by the bishop for the ex- 
 istence of infallibility, which has been so often repeated, and which 
 I promised sometime to notice', is this: '■'■ I am with you.''' Now, lo- 
 gic asks, what means " I am with you V as proving infallibility, un- 
 less " I am with you," is a phrase already incontrovertibly established 
 to mean infallibility. But what says bible fact 1 There are, at least, four 
 meanings of the phrase. 1 am with you, personally, providentially, gra- 
 ciously, or with miraculous power. It could not be the first : for he 
 was leaving them peiscnally. It could not be the second ; because 
 that was common to all good men. 'J'hus God was with Josepli, with 
 Jacob, with all the patriarchs, and with all good men. Il could not 
 be that God was to be with them graciously ; for that too, is common 
 to all christians. As the apostles said to all good christians, *' The Lord 
 be with you all," it could not be a special promise to the apostles. 
 What remains then] Mark, the evangelist, explains : "These signs 
 shall follow. In my name shall they cast out devils: they siiall 
 speak with new tont'ues, serpents shall they take away; and if they 
 drink any deadly thirtg it shall not hurt thorn. They shall impose 
 hands on the sick and they shall be whole." So the Rhemish 'I'esta- 
 ment reads Mark's account of the promise, " I am with you." Again ; 
 after the ascension of the Messiah, the evangelist relates, v. 20. " But 
 they" (the apostles) "going forth preached every where: our Lord 
 workini^ with all, and confirming the word with signs that followed." 
 
 This, then, is the proof of infallibility, as interpreted by Mark in 
 the canon Catholic Testament. Now, does rmt this confine the pro- 
 mise to the apostles 1 Can the popes work miracles ! Can the bish- 
 ops 1 — Such a miracle, f^-rsooth, as the existence of the I^oinan Ca- 
 tholic church in the western empire, after the rise of Mahometanism 
 in the east ! A splendid miracle, truly! 'I'hat proves as much for 
 Mahometanism and I'agaiiism, is for the popes of I?ome : for all 
 these systf^ms rose upon the ruin, and also withstood the shocks of 
 other systrms I 
 
 \\ hen Peter said to the rripide, "Silver and gold I have none; but 
 such on I havr I give thee — In the name rtf .fcsus take up yonr lied and 
 walk," he felt that he pes'*! ssed Homelliing in the promine " I am 
 with you." (Tan any of his succeBsors speak in this style: silver 
 and gold I have none: but such as I have (the power of Christ) I 
 give thee ? 
 
 The gentleman's dimerlation on the vicious circle, leaves him 
 
 X 34
 
 266 DEBATE 0>" THE 
 
 where it found him ; believing the church first and the bible after- 
 wards; and makinor the one prove the other: but he will never dis- 
 pose of it. He is like the eccentric ■witness, whose veracity could 
 only be ])roYe(l by the principal : and yet the principal depends for 
 his veracity upon the witness. The bishop for a little while turned 
 Protestant, and then he affirmed that he believed in Christ on the ev- 
 idence of his own miracles ; and that evidence he found in the bible, 
 and tjiat bible he interpreted for himself". Thus he became a Protest- 
 ant, when he attempted to solve that (iordion knot. But as soon as 
 he had, by the Protestant rule, obtained faith in Christ, he instantly 
 relapsed into the embrace of holy mother, and denounced the bridge 
 over which he escaped from the island. 
 
 But the gentleman asked a question which has puzzled wise men to 
 answer. A child however of four years old could have asked Newton 
 a question that he could not have answered in a thousand years. 
 "How can you prove the bible]" says the bishop. Does it prove 
 itself 1 I will imitate him, this once, and ask, does nature prove it- 
 self! Does God prove his own existence without his works or by 
 his works] Must there be another universe created to prove this 1 — 
 This is a question no one will put, unless on the hypothesis that no 
 man can prove a universe to exist but by other testimony than itself. 
 So the bible proves itself to be the word of God, as nature proves it- 
 self to be the work of God. Thus has the supreme intelligence stamp- 
 ed the impress of himself both on nature and revelation. David says, 
 " Lord, thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." I have 
 other reasons, if necessary, to prove how the bible was put together. 
 Many a christian has been made so by the single testimony of one 
 evangelist ; or by a single epistle of Paul. We have four gospels; 
 but one would have been enough ; and as much as many individuals 
 had. The whole christian doctrine might be learned from Paul alone, 
 from perhaps the half of his epistles. Paul and Peter wrote, and said 
 niucli more by divine inspiration than is preserved or recorded. So 
 did the ancient prophets. We need not lo prove, in order to our faith, 
 who collected the writings into one volume, any more, than who col- 
 lected all the words of Christ, that arc reported. 
 
 Cardinal Bellarmine says: "There is sure to be some doctor at 
 the head of a schism." Heresiarchs are generally men of letters. 
 Where then the pertinency of those remarks about the unlearned wres- 
 ting the scriptures? The original means untaught, untractahle persona 
 rather than unlearned, Philosoj)hers, as they love to be called, are 
 generally the most unteachable, and the greatest wresters and perver- 
 ters of the scriptures, Peter had those too wise to learn, in his eye, 
 when he spoke of wresting the scripture ; and not the simple, honest 
 and unassuming laity. Let a man sit down as Mary sat, at the feet of 
 Christ, and humble himself as a pupil ought; he will then hear the 
 voice of God, and understand it too. He will then discern how it is, 
 that all God's children are taught by God, and that there is none that 
 teacheth like him, 
 
 ■'- Rather wittily than logically, the gentleman gives the monks some 
 credit, for handling the Alexandrine manuscript. Be it known howev- 
 er, that monkery began in St, Anthony's time; and that this said copy 
 is older than the founder of monasteries. Because Tacitus, Livy, Hor- 
 accj and Virgil passed through their hands, are we dependent on them
 
 H01LA.N CATHOUC HELIGION. 267 
 
 for all our knowledge of Greek and Roman letters'? The monks handled 
 copies that they never wrote. But that gave those copies neither 
 more nor less credit. I did not mean that one ought not to thumb the 
 scriptures in reading them, when I spoke of them being soiled by the 
 hands of a monk. I have then, so far as objection has been made, as I con- 
 conceive, sustained the sixth proposition. Will the president moderator 
 please have the 5th proposition readl [The 5th prop, was here read.] 
 Prop. V. Her notions ot" purgatory, indulgences, auricular confession, remis- 
 sion of sins, transubitiiitiation, suoererogalion, Aic. essential elements of her sys- 
 tem, are immoral in their tendency, and injuiious to the wcll-bciug of society, 
 relis:iou5 and political. 
 
 Now, my friends, I want to strike a blow at the main root of the 
 whole papal superstition : for that root is found in the proposition just 
 now read. I have but little time to do it, and shall, therefore, march 
 right up to the point at once. 
 
 The capital, distinguishing doctrine of Protestantism, next to the 
 bible alone as the rule and measure of christian faith and manners, 
 and the right and duty of all to read and examine it is, that the death of 
 Jesus Christ was not simply that of a martyr : hut that " be died for 
 our gins, according to the scripture-s." That the death or sacrifice of 
 Christ is the great sin offeririg, and the only sin cffcrin!^, is a cardinal 
 doctrine of Protestantism ; and that there is now no priest, nor vic- 
 tim, nor sacrifice, nor altar, nor sin offering on earth follows, as a 
 matter of course. Jesus was " the Lamb of God" — " Himself the sin 
 offering and the priest." He expiated our sins in his own body on the 
 cross." " His blood cleanses from all sin." Papal priests, penances, 
 confessions, masses, remissions, purgatories, intercessions of saints, 
 angels, and almost all their ceremonies, arise frcyn the notion, the 
 radical mistake that the sacrifice of Christ, as a sin offering, an atone- 
 ment, a reconciliation, was some way deficient. Although we can 
 trace supererogation, purgatory, penances, lustrations, the intercessions 
 of angels and dead rnen, &c. to the philosophers and drejiincrs of the 
 east — their divine Platos, Pythagorases and Aristotles : still llio im- 
 mediate origin and cause of all these errors may bo traced to ignorance 
 of tlie bible doctrine of the priesthood of Christ, the antitype of that of 
 Aaron and Melchisidec. It was Dryden, a Iloinan Catholic poet, if I 
 mistake not, who said thai the dos pou .sin, which Ar.^hinicrlrs sought 
 in vain by which to raise the globe, was found by the |)opes of liomu 
 in the doctrine of purgatory. That uas tlu: philoBophor's stone — tho 
 lever which lifts the world — which has brought more gold to Rome, 
 than the discovery of America itself. 
 
 My friends, the docUine of purgatory with ail its correlatcais based 
 on two errors. 
 
 Ist. Thai man ran do more than his duly .• 
 
 2d. That soinclhina; may be added to the sacrifice (f Christ lo qive it 
 more value or rffirari/. 
 
 Now, I affirm, that no created being, not a Gabriel, or Uriel, or Raph- 
 ael, or the highest of the angelic hosts, can do an act of Kupercro- 
 galion. No man can, by any thought, word, or action, make (Jod his 
 debtor. " Who," nays Paul, " has first given to tho Lord, and it pliall 
 bfl recompensed to him againl For, of him, and through him, and to 
 him, are all things." Jesus told his disciples, that when they had 
 done all that was commanded them, they had only dono their duty, 
 and were to him unprofitable iorvanti. The greatctt saiot that
 
 268 »EBATE Oy THE 
 
 ever lived is not more holy liian he ought to be, on his own acconnt. 
 This single thought evaporates that sea of merit which has performed 
 such wonders in Roman story. 
 
 No human being has any thing to give to God ; and therefore none 
 can merit from him any thing. If a man's salvation depended on his 
 shedding a single tear, where could he find it] The heart that feels 
 and the tear that flows, clear as chrystal down the cheek of the most 
 devoted saint, are of God's creation. And, therefore, it is out of the 
 question, to conceive how any work of merit, as respects God, is pos- 
 sible for angel or for man. 
 
 Were a saint to turn pilgrim and peregrinate on his naked knees 
 the four quarters of the globe, were he to give his body to the flames, 
 when God asks it, or duty requires it; he has deserved nothing from 
 God, on the ground of merit. He has only employed the powers that 
 God gave him, and used his faculties in a way consonant to the de- 
 signs of him that gave them. And sooner will a man add new glo- 
 ries to the sun or create new luminaries in the heavens, than add one 
 attribute of merit or of power to the sacrifice of Christ. " He fin- 
 ished transgression : made an end of sin offerings, brought in an ever- 
 lasting justification ;" and left nothing to be done to make his sacri- 
 fice more meritorious or efficient. 
 
 ^^ orks of supererogation, auricular confession, masses for sins, 
 transubstantiation, purgatory, with all the appurtenances thereto be- 
 longing, are the veriest ghosts of pagnnism — the j)hantoms of infatu- 
 ated reason, attempts against the dignity cf God and the supremacy, 
 as well as the true and proper divinity and dignity of his Son. 
 
 This superstition, this man of sin, stands with his two feet upon 
 the two greatest lies in human history. He places his right foot on 
 the first and his left foot on the second. Need I say that the former 
 affirms l/ial Iks sacrifice nf Gtidh oivn Hon is insffficienl as a sin cffer' 
 ing .- and that the latter teaches thai man can do more than his duly to 
 God. Here then, I say to my opponent, 1 will measure swords with 
 him. Let him meet me on these too points, then it will be an easy 
 task to dispose of his imaginary purgatories, transubstantiation, pen- 
 ances, works of supererogation, &:c. 6cc. and to show that so far from 
 bringing glory to God or righteousness to men, they are positively, 
 naturally, and necessarily opposed to both. Let liim try his strength 
 of scriptural argument and reason on these cardinal points, and it 
 will, as our time is so far exhausted, save the tediousness of nume- 
 rous details. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Ilaf-pcsi 4 o'cIocA; P. M. 
 
 BiSHf P PuRCKr.t. liiSf- — 
 
 My friends, it is imperative upon me to make one exposition before 
 I proceed. Many of you were here when my friend would have led 
 you into a gross mistake, respecting the Catholic church, by quoting 
 a pretended extract from Liguori. I asserted then, that nothing could 
 be found in that writer's works to substantiate the odious charge, to 
 give it so much as a semblance of truth. I have now before ine the 
 entire w'orks of Liguori, and I have placed them in the presence of- 
 my friend, Mr. Campbell. The 9th volume has an index, containing 
 every word of any importance, and I repeat, that after a search through 
 the whole nine volumes, nothing like th-: rjuolation cf last evening can 
 be found. I have now placed the book in the hands of Professor
 
 EOMA?» CATHOtIC HELIClo:*. 2C9 
 
 Biggs, of Lane seminary, one of the moderators, and a Protestant of 
 the Presbyterian dcnoniination, if I do iiot mistake, and I will leave 
 it to him, or any other mtelliorent and candid man, to say to you 
 wjicther the fact is as my friend has stated, or the very contrary of 
 what he has stated. 
 
 Mr. ("ampbell. Be so good as to explain the matter fully. 
 
 Bishop Pl-rcell. I will explain the exact stale of the case. Mr. 
 Smith, the author of the translation, from whom my friend read this, 
 as well as many other things, has ffiven a fake quotation, and made 
 Liguori say, what lie never said. The facts are these : a canon of the 
 council of Trent, and Liguori, according to the canon, say, "that if 
 a priest falls by criminal intercourse, as specified, from the holy 
 state of purity, to which he is bound by a voluntary, deliberate, and 
 solemn vow, he shall be deprived of a large portion of his salary for 
 the first offence. If he does not rel'rain after admonition and such 
 punisiiment, he is again admonislied, and deprived of his whole salary, 
 and suspended from all his functions as a priest in the Catholic church. 
 But after the third admonition, if he is still incorrigible, he is excom- 
 municated, and cut otf from the church, even as St. Paul cut off the 
 incestuous man of Corinth." 1st. Ep. Corinth, ch. 5. v. 5. Nowhere, 
 in any pan of these volumes, is it said that a priest may sin thus upon 
 paying a fine, &.c. 
 
 Thus, my friends, you see how the poisonous fountains of error and 
 prejudice have been swelling over the land, and infeclinfr the public 
 mind, until many an honest and upright man has ihonirht, wlu-u he 
 denounced us for our (imputed) doctrines, he wasdoinnr (iud a service. 
 Were he aware of the imposition practised on his credulity, he would, 
 I have no doubt, have turned his indignation on riiore deserviufr victims. 
 "7/" we leave off slunderinu; them,''' said the ministers of Amsterdam, 
 to Vossius, who remonstrated with them on their injustice to the (-a- 
 tholics, *'■ our people idHI soon leave us.'" " JVes/tall do no !j;ood irith the 
 people,'''' said Shaftesbury, speaking of the Mocedo plot, " //" we cannot 
 make them swallow frreattr nonsense than this." " 'J'liou shall not bear false 
 witness ofrainxl thy nii^hlior,''' is a commundnii-nt which Maria Monk 
 and \\('j reverend y\iAv\:Ui\'^ reckon not to belong to the '* wciiihtier 
 ihinjfH of the law ." 'I'lit-ir stair calumnies are pai,! lor w itl> the biood- 
 mcni y ! (Jur doctrine-, many of its minisleiial adversarus kiunv to bo 
 pure and holy; but, overwhelmed with confusion, whenever they at^ 
 tcm|)t argument, iIk y have no res(.urc(! but in addressing themselves 
 to llie pre|udicesol' their inijiliiit i)elievers. 'i"lie»e mock at (.'albolica 
 for " heariiiff the cliurcli;" and wlioni do tin i/ bear 1 
 
 As to the bible, the whole dilHculty is to be gone («V(.'r nijain and 
 again. Every now translation, it seerns, lies open to obJeclionH on 
 grave and important <rronuds. I have; here a paper, printed at Kana- 
 wha, in Cabell county, \iryinia. In il a ronsidrrabie class ol' ilii|)- 
 tisls. I think lluy are, (juarrel with tbeir brethren near Zoar, in (Huo, 
 and quarrc'l with the bible. They insist that all the cxislint; Iransla- 
 /ion* of it should be rejected, and a new one commenced for them- 
 selves from the original Hebrew luid (ireek scriptures — if they gel 
 them ! They can never get a bible tin y are suri' of. They cannot ({et 
 the original llebrr w in wbicb thr; gospel of St. Malib w waswiiiieii. 
 St. Jerome says he had seen il, and that is all we know of it since. 
 They cannot in twelve months of llio time that the getting up uf their 
 bible will require, determine, on grounds aatiBfactory to a biblical 
 X i
 
 270 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 critic, and on Protestant principles, why they adopt or reject, as the 
 event may be, the seventh ver»e, of the fifth chapter, of the 1st Epistle 
 of St. John. 
 
 While this paper was being printed at Charleston, Virginia, the 
 •' Churchman," at New York, perhaps at the same hour, was printing 
 the very proof 1 have read to you, in favor of the Catholic doctrine of 
 confession. Let the Burmese and all others, Pagans or Christians, 
 lie on their oars, till the new scriptures appear. Then let printers, 
 agents and missionaries, be well paid, and the cumbrous machinery 
 set 10 work, and compass heaven and earth to make one proselyte, 
 who surely cannot be more settled in his faith than they who thus de- 
 spise the " inspired, authoritative, perpetual, catholic, perfect and in- 
 telligible rule." 
 
 He says the documents I have read are not pertinent. Now he cer- 
 tainly did not suspect that I thought he would so consider them. In his 
 estimation, there is nothing pertinent, logical, relevant, in all this dis- 
 cussion, but what he says himself. This he has neglected no oppor- 
 tunity of impressing on our attention. But the public will be the best 
 judge, and they can see through the attempts of either disputant to 
 forestall their impartial and unbiassed verdict. The printed report of 
 this controversy, will shew the pertinency or impertinency of our re- 
 spective arguments, and, for my own part, I have not the slightest fear 
 of the result. 
 
 I am very far from believing that I am worthy of advocating the 
 holy cause, in which my humble talents, and all my heart's affections 
 are enlisted, but such is my confidence in the power of that truth, 
 which I embraced on conviction as soon as I was able to judge for 
 myself, and whose evidences have been, ever since, brightening to my 
 understanding, the more 1 examine them, that I ask no more than that 
 my unadorned arguments should fall into the hands oi thinking men. 
 
 My opponent says that the whole structure of Catholicism is an as- 
 sumption, and rests upon two ties. The gentleman pledged himself at 
 the commencement of this debate, to use no opprobrious language, and 
 I promised not to set him the example. How he has kept his word, 
 as the terms in which his propusitions are expressed are so very re- 
 fined, let these, by which they are defended, decide. I will not bandy 
 epithets with him, but I must say that the Catholic church Has two 
 sound legs to stand upon. The gentleman tenders her crutches which 
 she modestly declines, with the suggestion that as his argument is 
 lame he may have occasion for them himself! I will argue these va- 
 rious doctrines which he has enumerated and prove them all to be 
 founded in the bible, and believed, in all past ages, from the time of 
 Christ and his apostles. The gentleman has misrepresented, or he 
 does not understand our doctrine. We believe that there is no other 
 name under heaven, but the name of Jesus given to men, whereby 
 they may be saved. Acts i v. 12. We believe that ^^ by one oblation 
 Christ hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" Heb. x. 14. 
 That atonement by His vicarious sacrifice, if not the first, is one of the 
 great cardinal doctrines of the Itoman Catholic church, no man who 
 pretends to any acquaintance wiih that doctrine, will, or can venture 
 to deny. Christ has paid an all-sufficient price for our ransom. But 
 do we arraign the sacrifice of Christ of insufficiency, when we sanc- 
 tify the Sabbath, when we give alms to the poor, when we abstain from
 
 BOMAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 271 
 
 evil, when we heii pi-eaching, or go to prayer 1 When St. Paul chas- 
 tised his body and brought it under subjection, lest, while he preached 
 to others he should himself become a reprobate, did he believe Christ's 
 sacrifice incomplete 1 that it needed his supplementary austerities? 
 Or that the other Apostles should command us, to make sure our election 
 and vocation by gooH tcorks ; to work out our salvation with fear and 
 trembling ? No ; God who made us without ourselves, will not save us 
 ■without ourselves. He requires our co-operation, and with his grace 
 he aids our weak endeavor. This grace he communicates to us by divers 
 channels, and in various ways. Of these the principal are the seven sa- 
 craments, which, if I may use the gentleman's figure in its proper appli- 
 cation, like the seven mouths of the Nile convey the healing waters from 
 the fountains of the Savior to every portion of the church. The will 
 is made and recorded. The executors, the apostles and priests of the 
 church, convey and apply an adequate portion to the wants of men. 
 Wherever a captive may be presumed to groan in spiritual slavery, 
 they seek him out, they proclaim to him the glad tidings of his deliv- 
 erance, they pay, with the treasures of Christ, of which they arc the 
 depositaries, the price of his ransom ; and this when they find the slave 
 willing to accept the terms on which redemption is offered, do they 
 carry into effect, in his behalf, the charitable intentions of the divine 
 testator. Is this arraigning his bounty, or distributing it as he com- 
 manded ] Is this robbing Christ of his glory, or calling all nations to 
 bask in its rays and exult in its eff'ulgence? The Catholic church, in 
 all the institutions she venerates, the sacraments she administers, the 
 truths she proclaims, the sacrifices she offers, the prayers she prefers, 
 the charily she inculcates, the grace she dispenses, acts by the com- 
 mand of Christ, in the name of (Christ, IViis ix the true and living way 
 by which she commands all to seek access to the Father, and by Him, 
 with Him, and in Him, to give to God all honor and glory forever. 
 He is the sun of the entire system, and all the ordinances of religion, 
 are but the rays of that sun enlightening and vivifying the christian 
 pilgrim at every step of his weary progress througli this vale of tears. 
 Sacrifice, we consider indispensable to religion. It has been offered 
 to God in every age, by every peoph;, under every form of rfligion. 
 Abel offered sacrifice in lOdcn, thi- purest firstlings of bis flocks, for he 
 was a shepherd, ('ain sacrificed the fruits of the earth, for he was a 
 husbandman. Noah, when the waters of the deluge had subsided, 
 Solomon, when he dedicatofi the trample, offered sacrifices ; even the 
 Pagan nalif)ns of the earth, whoch.inged tiie glory of the it)corruptibIe 
 God, into the likeness of the image of (•orru[)tilile man, and of hirds, 
 and of four-footed boasts, paid homage to this dirlate of nature, and 
 continued the rite of sacrifice, however unworthy the olijects of itiola- 
 try. From all this we rightly infer, that the only perfect religion 
 should not ha destituto of Hiicrifcc. The scriplure evi'rywhert- tesii- 
 fies to its necessity. Mehrhisedt'c, as we read in (Jenesis, (i)Vere(i 
 bread and wine. He was a priest of the most High (iod. Ami David, 
 in the lUDth Psalm, says of Jesus ('lirist, Kiii(( of Justice, King of 
 Peace, "The Lord hath sworn, and it shall not repent him, thou art a 
 priest forever according to the order of MelchiHcdec." When God 
 abrogates the Jewish dispensation, and subslitules a mw and heller in 
 its stead, he says to the Jews, by the last of all the prophets, " I have 
 no pleasure in you, mUIi the Lord nf hoiti ; and I will tuil receive a gift
 
 272 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 of your hand ; for from the rising nf the sun even to the going down, my 
 name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is a sacrifice, 
 and there is offered to my name a clean (iblatitm ; for my name is great 
 among the Gentilts, saith the Lord of hos's.''"' Malacliias, ch. 11, 6. v. 
 When Jesus Clirist, as we read in three Evanffelisls, instituted the 
 Blessed Eucharist, he said to his apostles, " This my body, which is 
 offered for you. This is my blood, which is shed for you. Bo this in com- 
 memoration nf wc." 
 
 Catholics obey the injunctions of the Savior, they do what he com- 
 manded them, they offer the memorial sacrifice, they continue and re- 
 present the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon Calvary. They offer it 
 under the forms of bread and wine as Melchisedec had done in figure. 
 They offer it from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof, 
 as Malachy had predicted. On Asia's distant plains, under the burn- 
 ing sun of Africa, in the tangled forests of the western world, as well 
 as in its new and blooming cities, the sacrifice is offered and the pro- 
 phecy obtains its glorious accomplishment. If Protestants say they 
 have the sacrifice of the death of Christ, I answer with our divines, 
 so had the servants of God, under the law of nature and the written 
 law; for it is impossible that with the blood of oxen and goats, sin 
 should be taken away; nevertheless they had perpetual sacrifices to 
 represent the death of Christ, and to apply the fruits of it to their souls. 
 In the same manner the Catholics have Christ himself really present, 
 and mystically offered on their altars daily, for the same ends. 
 
 If time permitted, I might call up in review before you those vener- 
 able bishops and doctors whose blood sealed the doctrine, which their 
 writings had defended. The saint Johns and the Polycarps of the east 
 — the Irenaeuses and the Hilaries of the west — those venerable men 
 whose great age, like that of the patriarchs of old, enabled them to 
 transmit to their children without fear of error, or multiplying too 
 much the intermediate links — the traditionary chain of their own and 
 their forefathers' belief— what they believed and taught themselves 
 and what was daily practised in those old centurial churches 
 which we have inherited from them, built many ages before any of 
 the modern dissentient religions were known, and where the altar and 
 the cross, the liturgy and the stone from the wall, bore testimony to 
 the real presence in the Eucharist, to the divinity of the victim that 
 was offered there in sacrifice ! — [Time expired.] 
 
 FRIDAY, January 20. Haf past 9 o'clock, A. M. 
 
 Mr. CAMPUELF, risr s — 
 
 I did not, in first taking up "The Synopsis of the Moral Theology 
 of the Roman Church," say aught of its author, or of the causes which 
 ushered it into existence. But since it has become a matter of so 
 much debate, I shall state a few things concerning it and its author, 
 Mr. Smith, the author, was a member of that community for seventeen 
 years, several of which he officiated as a priest. Convinced of the 
 errors of that superstition, he publicly renounced it, and is now a Pro- 
 testant minister, greatly devoted to the cause of Protestantism. From
 
 R03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 273 
 
 his intimate acquaintance with the spirit and tendency of the Roman 
 Catholic institution, he has recently translated a considerable portion 
 of the works of Saint Ligori. The title of the book is : 
 
 "A synopsis of the moral iheolog)' of the church of Rome, taken from the 
 works of St. Ligori and translated from the Latin into English by SAMUEL B. 
 Smith, late a pop'ish pritst." iVew York, 1836. 
 
 It is further explained in the preface: 
 
 " What we present before the public in this synopsis, is a compendious view 
 of the doctrine of the churith of Rome, now taught m all her schools. It is b 
 fair and exact translation of selected portions of the voluminous MoRAI. Theo- 
 I/CGY of St. Alphonsus (!e Ligorio, published at Mechlin in Belgium, svptriO' 
 rum permissi, in the year 18i8." [Preface, p. 5. 
 
 Of its author he speaks thus: 
 
 " He was enrolled among the saints, as the title page of his work declares, by 
 pope i'ius VII. on the 15th of September, in the year 1816." [Pref. p. 6. 
 
 It seems that this work is so popular, as to be found in almost 
 every priest's library, and is quoted by them, as of the highest au- 
 thority. 
 
 "Besides the above testimony in confirmation of the authority of St. Ligori, 
 we have also that of the Rev. father Valera himself, the popish priest of the city 
 of New York. This Rev. father Felix Valera, about a year and a half ago, in 
 his attempt at a refutation of my " renunciation fj" popery," quotes this very* 
 same Ligori as overwhelming and decisive authority against something which 
 he found advanced by me." [Prel". p. 9. 
 
 In some very important matters, he has given the orio^inal itself; 
 and fearing, as the manner is, that his translation might be called in 
 question, he says ; 
 
 " If they deny that we have given a fair translation, we will then challenge 
 them to come forward in a public assembly with tlie works of St. Ligori, when 
 we promise to meet them, and submit our translation, and the original, to the 
 inspection of a committee, one half of whom to be chosen by ourselvej, and the 
 other half by the Roman clergy. Truth never shuns investigation. If we hare 
 not given a fair, genuine, ana true tinn"lalion, and if we have not exhibited the 
 doctrines of Ligori and the church of Rome fairly and correctly, without gar- 
 bling, or giving an crrotieous construction, w- will be willing to incur the con- 
 sequences that we ought to expect, for having deceived the pulilic." Synop. 
 Pref. p. 12. 
 
 I have given but a sample of this work, though I have made numer- 
 ous quotations ; only one of which has been challenged by my antag- 
 onist. That point I touched as liglitly as possible, because unsuited 
 to a popular assembly. This the gentleman fully understands. I 
 slurred it over, iti terms the least intelligible which I could select at 
 the moment : but he has no reason to object even io the comment, that 
 Mr. Smith puts iijjon the article quoted. He well knows that mar- 
 riage in the priesthood is instant excommunication ; while concubin- 
 age is matter of forbearance. In the course of this discussion, I had 
 occasion to observe, that I fotmd very many canons of the church, even 
 in the fifth and sixth centuries, on the subject of marriage and its 
 abuses. This, from the modesty of my exposition, li« took r>rcasion 
 to use in argumrmi, as proof that the celibacy of the clergy was earl^ 
 introduced. This was a perversion of my observation, which the deli- 
 cacy of my situation would not allow me to explain. Nor will I now 
 Bin against my own feelings, or those of my audience, by going full^ 
 into such details. I will only add, that I have a superfluity of evi- 
 dence in proof of the allegation of Ligori. The casuistry, dissimula- 
 tion, and immorality of the Jesuits, and the whole genius of the inter- 
 nal spirit of the papacy, are abundantly attested in tho two works ly- 
 ing before me: "The Provincial Lcllers," of tho accomplished Pa«- 
 
 3i
 
 274 DEBATE O.-V THK 
 
 chal, which I have not yet opened in this discussion; and, "Th«» 
 Secreta Monita of the order of Jesus." This copy, in the original 
 French, I am informed by the lady through whose kindness I have 
 been furnished with it, was broutrht to this country by the secretary 
 of the great and renowned La Fayette, on his last visit to the United 
 States. This, our national benelactor, who, my opponent says, was 
 a true Catholic, has declared, tiiat if our liberty should be lost, it will 
 be by the hands of priests. I saw this fact stated in two papers; one 
 pnbTishcd in Richmond, the other in New-York ; and I have no doubt 
 of its correctness. 
 
 The Secreta Monita has been a few years since, translated at Prin- 
 ceton N. J. and is now found in many book-stores in thrs country. 
 From the perusal of these two volumes, we shall find that the moral 
 theolo<ry of St. Ligori, the doctrine of Smith's Synopsis, is in per- 
 fect unison with the true spirit of the Roman clergy and institution. 
 
 The gentleman mentioned the disclosures of Maria Monk. I did 
 not ; because I rely on no such documents. What she says, is private 
 property ; and there is no occasion for bringing it into this contro- 
 versy. I have my own opinion of it however : but need not its aid 
 on this occasion. 
 
 The gentleman speaks often of the imperfections and difficulties 
 of Protestant translations of the bible. He says that we Protestants 
 are in a deplorable state ; always making new translations, and never, 
 or not long satisfied witli any of them : and seems to sympathize with 
 us, as if we were without the scriptures. This pretended condolence, 
 I only notice because it gives me an opportunity to repeat with em- 
 phasis, that his church, with all her pretended infallibility, cannot pro- 
 duce a translation of any sort, in any living language on earth ! With 
 all the riches, and learning, and infallibility of the Roman hierarchy; 
 she owns not an English New Testament, authentic or authorized 
 either by pope or council, or the church diffusive or responsive. How 
 supremely ridiculous, therefore, for the gentleman to talk of Protes- 
 tant translations, as imperfect ! How docs he infallibly know that 
 any one of them is imperfect ] Two infallible editions of the Latin 
 vulgate have been made by the authority of two popes, not thirty 
 years distant from each other; and yet they differ in more than 2000 
 places!!! Sixtus V. issued a bull,- with an anathema, against any 
 man that would change his authorized vulgate, even in the least par- 
 ticle, (in minima particula,) yet, Clement VHI. had the audacity, 
 in despite of said bull, to order a new translation, and did accomplish 
 it, changing it morethan 2000 times, and sometimes very seriously, 
 to the amount of clauses, and whole verses, as Dr. James in his Bel- 
 lum Papale has amply testified. Thus the Clementine vulgate, under 
 the solemn curse of the Sixtine bull, carries upon it the seal of infal- 
 libility! 
 
 I now invite attention to the subject of yesterday evening. I then 
 endeavored to state, as briefly as 1 could, the two fundamental errors 
 on which the Man of sin stands. The first, — That the sacrifice of Je- 
 sus Christ was not alone sufficient, to put away sin; and the second, 
 — That persons can do more than their duty. To provoke discussion 
 on these two great doctrinal lies, I stated that all the peculiar doc- 
 trines of the Roman Catholic church, viz. penance, purgatory, tran- 
 substantiation, and all this priestly sacrifice, confession, &c. were
 
 ROilAJr CATHOUC EELIGION. 275 
 
 built upon these two doctrinal lies. I shall not further discuss that 
 subject, till the gentleman agrees to meet me there. 
 
 Again, It is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the 
 " intention''' of the priest, in every act of worship and consecration, 
 is essential to the validity of that act — that is, that unless the person 
 ordaining a priest intend to ordain him, all that is done, is of no vali- 
 dity, however exact the form; because he did not intend in his heart, 
 to ordain hirn ! So, in consecrating a wafer, without such intention, 
 its nature is not changed ; and the reception of it, of no value. Such 
 intention is essential to every act of religion, in which a priest offi- 
 ciates. The efficacy of all ordinances, is therefore resolved into "the 
 intention of the priest." He that denies the necessity of this inten- 
 tion, according to the council of Trent, '• is to be anathema."' This 
 is therefore, one of the essential doctrines of the church as necessary 
 to salvation, as the gospel itself; for the rejection of it incurs as 
 solemn a curse as any one of the hundred anathemas which the coun- 
 cil of Trent pronounced in confirmation of its decrees. The only 
 time, the word anathema is used by Paul in the sense of a curse is 
 in his letter to the Galatians, in respect of corrupting the gospel. 
 This then, is as essential as the gospel. Who then, let me ask, 
 can have faith in any of the ceremonies or ordinances, or consecra- 
 tions of Rome 1 Can any one know the intention in the heart of 
 a priest or bishop T Nay, indeed, bishop Pu rcell never can prove 
 to any mortal, that he is truly ordained : nor can any one have any 
 faith in his services as a bishop, unless he know all hearts, from 
 Peter's time till now, and could show that the intention was never 
 wanting from the apostolic age till now, in the ancestorial official 
 lines. This doctrine lays the axe at the root of all certainty in 
 every part of the Roman (Catholic religion : for in tlio judgment of 
 that church multitudes of Iter clergy have proved hypdcriu-s and im- 
 postors, in whose intentions at any previous time, tliere can there- 
 fore be no faith. So far as Protestants are concerned, their principles 
 are perfectly free from this incertitude. Kvery Protestant feels the 
 most perfect certainty in submitting to th<^ ordinaiiros of religion. 'I'lio 
 Protestant minister knows and teaches that the ordinance receives no 
 saving or salutary efficacy from his intentions, or liis hands. Per- 
 sons, who in faith and piety receive them, know thai they receive all 
 the efficacy of the ordinance, indcpcndiMit of any special virtue in him 
 that does administer them. 
 
 On the subject of indulgences I shall tourli i)Ut lightly, for 'he 
 want of time. The rich and profitable trade, wliicli has been carried 
 on by Rome in the sale of this single arlicio of her merehandizo 
 is as public as her i}ame. The conspicuity of tliis subjcrt as connect- 
 ed with the Protestant I?efnrmntion is as fainilinr as the names of Lu- 
 ther and Tetzel, Jt is a sprout from tlic root of superiTogation, from 
 the doctrine of human merit — that immense bank ol which tlie clergy 
 are directors. The intolorable abuRos of that board of direrlors was 
 the punctum xrilimH of tin- Protttstant RiforuKition. Pope Leo X. 
 president in that day, wanted to pay off some sixty million of <iollnr8, 
 incurred and bring incurred for the 8plendi<l edifu-c of St. Peters at 
 Rome. He published a plenary remission of past sins, and an iiulul- 
 gence to all contributing to this splendid undirtaking. As a matter of 
 curiosity and of edification, we sliall hers read th« form of these in- 
 dulgences.
 
 276 DEBATE ON TB^ 
 
 " May our Lord Jesus Christ have mercy upon thee, and absolve thee by the 
 merits of his most holy passion. Ami I, by his nuthority, tliat of his blessed 
 apostles, Peter and I'auf, and tliat of the most holy pope, granted and commit- 
 ted to me in these parts, do absolve thee, first from all ecclesiastical censure, in 
 whatever manner they have been incurred, then from all thy sins, transgres- 
 sions, and excesses, how enormous soever they may be; even from such as are 
 reserved for the cognizance of the holy see, and as far as the keys of the holy 
 church extend. I remit to you all punisliracnt T\hich you deserve in purgatory 
 on their account; and I restore you to the holy sacraments of the church, to the 
 unity of the faithful, and to that innocence and purily which you possessed at 
 baptism: so that when you die, the gates of punishment shall be shut, and the 
 gates of paradise shall be opened; and if you shall not die at present, (his grace 
 shall remain in full force, when you are at the point of death. In the name of 
 the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." [Controversy between Messrs. 
 Huffhes and Breckenridpe, p. 243. 
 
 All we have said with regard to the power and pretensions of Rome 
 in granlinrr indulgences, is substantiated, and more than substanti- 
 ated by this document, for in anticipation of the future, even to death, 
 and in death, the absolving power, or grace, was to continue. I will 
 also add, the doctrine of the creed of pope Pius IV. 
 
 "The council of 'J'rent teaches that " wlioever shall airnni that when the 
 grace of justification is received, the ori'ence of the penitent sinner is so forgiv- 
 en, and the senicnce of eternal punishment so reversed, that there remains no 
 temporal punishment to be endured, before his entrance into the kingdom of 
 heaven, either in this world, or in the future statt- in jjurgatory: let him be ac- 
 cursed." Id. lb. same p. 
 
 Perhaps we should also hear, in this place, the council of Trent : 
 
 It is also an article of faith in the creed of Pius IV. " that the power of in- 
 dulgences was left by Christ to his church, and tliat the use of them is very help- 
 ful to christian people.'' [Ground of Catholic Doc. p. 71. 72. 
 
 Once more : 
 
 Bellarmine, that great cardinal of the Roman Catholic church (to show that 
 he died in the faith he willed half of his soul to the Virgin Mary and the other 
 half to her son) — Bellarinlne in his bo jk on indulgences heads the second and 
 third clia[)ters thus: " That there exists a certain treasury in the church, which 
 i* the foLindatioii of indulgences; that the church has the power of appUing this 
 treasury of satisfactions, and thus of granting iri'inlgences." 
 
 I will not branch out on this subject farther, unless the gentleman 
 agrees to meet me on the facts and documents just now submitted. To 
 prove the immoral tendency of such indulgences, would, indeed, be a 
 work of supererogation, if such a work were at all possible. 
 
 On the subject of transubstantiation, the creed of pope Pius IV. de- 
 cides as follows : 
 
 Article xvi. " I do also profess, that in the mass thei^ is offered unto God a true, 
 proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and the dead; and that, in the 
 most holy sacrament of the holy eucharist, there is truly, really, and substantially, 
 the body and blood, together with the soul and the divinity of our Lord Jesus 
 Christ; and that there is a conversion made, of the whole substance of the bread 
 into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood; which 
 Conversion the holy Catholic church calls TRA^■SUI!STA^TIAT10N." 
 
 '•The church of Rome declares that, upon the priest's jnonouncing these 
 words, hoc est corpus mevm, (this is my bo'!y.) the bread and wine in the eu- 
 charist are instantly transubstantiated into the natural Ijody and blood of Christ; 
 the species or accidents only of the bread and wine leinaining. Christ is offered 
 as often as the sacrifice of the mass is celebrated. Solitary masses, wherein the 
 priest communicates alone, are approved and commended; and the council of 
 Trent declares that whosoever sailh they are unlawful and ouglit to be abrogat- 
 ed or abolished, is accur.>ed." [View of Ml Religions, coiiijiilid and selected 
 from the best authorities by Thomas Tiohbins, minister of the gospel in east 
 Windsor, Conn. Hartford 1826, p. 25. 
 
 It is always right to attack a doctrine in the words of those who
 
 ROilAN CATHOLIC BELIGIO.f . 277 
 
 profess it. Every cardinal doctrine of the papacy can be traced to a 
 certain period, when it became an element of the system. 
 
 Monachism began to be taught by St. Anthony in the 4th century. 
 
 Auricular confession in the 5ih ; but was finally established by In- 
 nocent III. early in the 13tb century. 
 
 Theoretical purgatory began to be spoken of from the Pagans and 
 Jews in the 6th century; but did not obtain a fixed residence till in 
 the council of Florence, it became an integral part of infallibility 
 A. D. 1430. 
 
 Farly in the 7th century the idea of universal father, or pope ob- 
 tained. 
 
 In the 8th centurj', after many and various fortunes, images bc^an 
 to be set up ; and in the Olh became an integral part of Roman Catho- 
 licism. 
 
 In the year 730, a council summoned by Leo. III. with only one 
 dissenting vote, called the worship of images and relics idolatry. 
 
 Celibacy among the clergy began to be canonical in the 11th cen- 
 tury. 
 
 In the 9th century, the doctrine of transubstantiation began to be 
 talked of commonly ; but was made iufiliible by pope Innocent III. 
 4th Lateran council. 
 
 Scotus, of Roman Catholic memory, affirmed that it was not an 
 article of faith before the Lateran council of 1215, and that it cannot 
 be proved from scripture. Bellarminc, Book iii. chap. 23, on the Eu- 
 charist, quotes Scotus as saying so, and admits, " thougli the scrip- 
 tures <iuoted last above, seems clear to us, and ought to ronvince any 
 man that is not forward ; yet, it may justly be doubted, wliellier it be 
 po, (proved by scripture,) when the most learned and acute men, such 
 as Scotus, in particular, held a contrary o])inion." (Cardinal Cajetan, 
 Ochan, and Ijishop Fislior, cum multix alii.f, bold the same opinion. 
 
 Among Protestants, the reason and authority of rtligiDus belief and 
 practice, is, "Thus saith the Lord." It is not important to ascertain 
 when any opinion or practice began, ncr who introduced it; but if it 
 be not in the nini.K, no matter how ancient it may be. It wants apostolic 
 eanction, for the a[)ostlcs sanction only what was written and ordained 
 before their death. St. Clement, and St. Ignatius, nnd St. Ireiui-us, 
 and all the other sainta in the Uoman calendar, were born too late to 
 sanction any article of faith, or morals, by their vote. 
 
 But a few wortls on transubstantiation. " A sarramrnt,^* says tho 
 chiirf^h, " is an outward and visible sign of some inward and spiritual 
 grace." Now, it cannot he both the sign and the thing signified. If, 
 then, the Eucharist be a sacrament, it cannot be true that it is the 
 body and blood of Christ transubstanliaU-d. Rome ought, then, to 
 strike it from her list of sacraments. 
 
 Unt Jesus gave the eucliarist for a kIi^u, a keepsake, a memorial of 
 his love. It iH, then, a commemorative! institution, as well as a sign 
 of New Testament blessings: "Do this in reniembranre (f me." 
 Like other tokens of love, it has inscribed upon it the name of thn 
 donor. As was said of the passover ; it is the Lnrd'n passmrr .■ ho say* 
 Jesus, *' this m nn/ liodi/.''^ 
 
 Now, as all words have a literal and fnnirative meaning, the only 
 
 Jucslion here is, Are these words to be taken literally or fignrativelv 1 
 f literally, some good reason must be offered: and what is ill Be- 
 cause some father, popo, or council so decided 1 ^Ve must have the 
 Y
 
 278 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 reason -which authorised them, else their decision is a mere assump- 
 tion. 
 
 Where shall that reason be found 1 Is it because Jesus always so 
 speaks, tliat he must be thus understood 1 Then I contend, that when 
 he said, *■'• I am tlie doory'' he was literally transubstantiated into a 
 door ; and when he said, " / am the bread which came down from 
 heaven," he was converted into bread ; and when he said, '■'■lam the 
 true vhie,^^ he was literally changed into ave:i\ vhic. And why noli 
 Is it more irrational, marvelous, incredible, than that "this loaf is 
 my body," should mean that this loaf was converted into his body, 
 and changed into flesh; and that while the apostles were eating the 
 loaf, they were eating the living flesh of him that stood before thern 1 ! 
 If, then, the bishop assumes a literal interpretation in the one case ; I 
 assume it in these and various other passages. For, if he may assume 
 eid libitum, so may I ; and so may every one else ; and then what 
 comes of the certainty of language ] It is, then, without law, precedent, 
 or authority, to assume the very point in debate ; and to say, that be- 
 cause it reads this is my body, it moans that bread is converted into flesh. 
 
 This style, of the passage in dispute, is very common in both the 
 Old and New Testaments. So early as the time of Joseph, we read 
 " the seven good kine are seven years," — and " the seven good ears are 
 seven years." What a Iransubstantiation ! But change are into re- 
 present, which is its meaning, in a thousand places, and all is plain. 
 
 Again : says Jesus, " Destroy this temple," pointing to his body, 
 " The field is the world — the reapers are the angels." — Are these, 
 also, transubstantiations ? Paul also speaks thus, when he says of the 
 rock Horeb, " that rock tvas Christ." And John the apostle, " the 
 seven stars are seven angels;" "the seven candlesticks are seven 
 churches." And what is the difference between these phrases, and 
 " this is my body V — but finally on this part of the subject, Jesus 
 said of the cup, "this cup is the New Testament." Does not that, 
 on the bishop's premises, prove that the cup was changed into the 
 New Testament? ! But, if by pronouncing over a loaf the words of 
 consecration a priest has power to change bread into flesh, and wine 
 into blood, he has, indeed, a power truly miraculous and divine ; and 
 works as many miracles in the whole course of his life as he says 
 masses. A claim to such a divine, supernatural, and extraordinary 
 power, ought not to be claimed upon an arbitrary, capricious, and 
 whimsical interpretation of a word ! Good reasons ought to be offered 
 by any man, who passes himself on the community, as possessing 
 power equal to quickening the dead and suspending the laws of nature. 
 
 Once more, for the present : If, you believe the priest and receive 
 the bread as flesh, you never after can with reason believe your own 
 senses : for, when your eye declnres it i)read, and your senses of 
 smelling, tasting, feeling, and I might add, your hearing — all declare 
 that it is still bread and not flesh — If, I say, you can, contrary to your 
 own senses, which God has given you as the means of knowledge 
 and certainty, thus implicitly believe the declaration of a priest; you 
 are disqualified for reasoning, for believing the christian religion, or 
 your own senses on any subject of which they are witnesses. So 
 that it may be truly said, he that believes in transubstantiation, can 
 rationally believe in nothing else. All the christian miracles, were 
 to be believed — not because they were contrary to the evidence of J 
 sense ; but because they were in accordance with that evidence.
 
 R03LV:i CATHOLIC KKLIGIO:*. 279 
 
 I cannot argue this point with any sort of ability. I cannot feel in 
 earnest. I seem to myself as if I were reasoning against a thing 
 which no person believed ; and I never ctuld with any sort of spirit, 
 discuss a matter, unless there was some little show of plausibility, 
 or shadow of reason in it. The doctrine of transubstantialion is so 
 absurd, that I do not know that I ever read a tract through against it in 
 my life. But this subject gives such glory to the priests and has 
 wrought such miracles upon the superstitious crowd, that it is worth 
 more to sustain the priesthood, than all the other six Roman sacra- 
 ments. And that which causes this most incredible of all things, to 
 be devoured by such multitudes is, that it expiates sin. Hence the 
 body of Christ is daily eaten by hundreds of thousands, as a sin of- 
 fering together with " his soul and divinity," as decided I)y the coun- 
 cil of Tcent ! The Messiah is then always suffering, always bleed- 
 ing, always dying, always expiating sin by the sacrifice of himself; 
 and his people are always literally devouring his llesli ! What a pic- 
 ture!! I shall turn away from it; for my soul sickens at the tliuught. 
 
 Protestants know that the sin of forgetfuluess is tiic easily beset- 
 ting sin of mortals ; and that they need commemorative institutions. 
 Hence, they highly appreciate the honor of having a Lord's table, a 
 Lord's supper, a holy communion and fellowship, through these sa- 
 cred emblems of a Savior's love. "'I'he loaf, which we break," says 
 the apostle, "is it not the conmiunion of the body of Christ 1 The 
 cup over which we give thanks, is it not the communion, or the joint 
 participation of his blood V — Hence, the New Testament with its 
 spiritual and heavenlj' blessings is always contemplated, realized, and 
 remembered with holy thankfulness in the christian assemblies, while 
 they partake of the sacred emblems of that great sacrifice, " once of- 
 fered for the sins of many. For by one offering up of himself, he has 
 forever perfected them who are sanctified." 
 
 Having yet remaining a few minutes, I shall prepare the way for 
 the introduction of my seventh proposition. Having touched at the 
 roots of all the? j)rinci[)al cornijitions, and ir.wingyct iieard nothing in 
 reply, I will anticipate that proposition with a lew remarks on the p;i- 
 pistical notion of a ju<lge of controversy. 
 
 The council of Trent decreed " that the oral traditions of the Cath- 
 olic church," (meaning the Roman) "are to In- received, ;)«;•/ pictatis 
 ajfeclri ac rcvrrntlia .lunn'/iit ac vttirritttir, — with cciual |)iely ami rever- 
 ence as the books of the Old and .New 'I'cstanieiit." — Counc-il f)f Trent 
 4th session. 
 
 Then she asserts : " It belongs to the church to judge of the true 
 sense and interpretation of scri|)ture; and tliat no person shall dare 
 to interpret it in matters rehiting to filth and manners to any sense 
 contrary to that which the ehureh has held, or contrary to the unani- 
 mous consent of the fitherH." — Ih. Id. 
 
 And aceording to lh(; S.Trd article of tlie creed of nope I'iusIV. 
 "I do acknowle<lge th<! Holy Catholji- and Apostolic Koman church 
 to he the mother and mistress of all elnirches; and I <lo |)romise and 
 swear true ohedienee to llir' bishop fif {{onii-, the surressor of I'etrr, 
 the j)rince of the apostles, and the vicar of Christ." 
 
 Here then, wc have the essenflal elements of mental slavery and 
 degradation : for, if no person r/wrr to interpret the Scriptures contra- 
 ry to what the church has alniidy held, or ti thn unanirnouH cotisent 
 of the Fathers; where is that liberty of thought and speech and ac-
 
 280 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 tion, on the most important of all subjects, our moral and religious re- 
 lations, without which, liberty is without meaning, and mental inde- 
 pendence but a name 1 
 
 In all monarchies, save that of Rome and Mahomet, a judge is not 
 constitutionally a judge of his own case. But the Roman judge of 
 controversy is the whole church, says my learned opponent, and her 
 councils affirm with him. The whole church judging then between 
 what parties? Herself and the heretics !! What a righteous, infal- 
 lible and republican judge, is the supreme judge of controversy in the 
 Catholic church ! The controversy is between two parlies — the church, 
 or the clergy, on one side ; and the heretics or the reformers on the 
 other, as they may happen to be called ; say the church and the here- 
 tics. And who is umpire, who is supreme judge of bothi One of 
 the parties, indeed, the church herself! This is the archetype — the 
 beau ideal, of civil liberty, and republican government, in the supreme 
 Roman hierarchy. It will not help it to place the ermine on the pope. 
 He is that instant exparte judge. And besides, he is executive of, 
 the church. If the pope is to be judge, and executive, and lawgiver, 
 in the case as he frequently is, what a splendid picture of a republi- 
 can president or judge have we got in the Roman church ! 
 
 This ghostly despotism is to be sustained and defended too, by the 
 whole church, by vows, oaths, and pledges, the most solemn and bind- 
 ing that religion can suggest, or human ingenuity devise. It is true she 
 governs by her bishops. The popes make bishops, on the recommen- 
 dation of bishops, and these bishops serve the pope and govern the 
 people. Their oath, which is the same in all countries, 1 will now 
 read, — so far at least, as relates to this matter. I have the original, 
 and different translations of it, and if it be disputed, I am prepared to 
 sustain it. To reconcile it to the genius of our institutions, and to the 
 safety and happiness of our country, will require .the explanations and 
 reasonings of my friend. 
 
 " I, IV. elect of the church of N. from henceforward will be faithful and obe- 
 dient to St. Peter the Apostle, and to the holy Roman church, and to our lord, 
 the lord N. Pope N. and his successors, canonically coining in. I will neither 
 advise, consent, or do an}' thing that they may lose life or member, or that their 
 persons may be seized, or hands any wise laid upon them, or any injuries offered 
 to them, under any pretence whatsoever. The counsel which ihey shall intrust 
 to me withal, by themselves, their messengers, or letters, I will not knowingly 
 reveal to any to their prejudice. I will help them to defend and keep the Ro- 
 man papacy, and the royalties of St. Peter, saving my order, against all men. The 
 legate of the apostolic see, going and coming, I will honorably treat and help. 
 in his necessities. The rights, honors, privileges, and authority of the holy Ro- 
 man church of our I^ord the Pope, and his foresaid successors, I will endeavor 
 to preserve, defend, increase, and advance. -I will not be in any counsel, action, 
 or treaty, in which shall bo plotted against our said lord, and the said Roman 
 church.'any thing to the hurt or prejudice of their persons, right, honor, state, 
 or power; an<l if I shall know any such thing to be treated or agitated by any 
 whatsoever, I will signify it to our said lord, or to some other by whom it may 
 come to his knowledge. The rules of the holy Fathers, the apostolic decrees, 
 ordinances, or disposals, reservations, provisions, and mandates, I will observe 
 with all my might, and cause to be observed by others. Heretics, schismatics, 
 and rebels to our said lord, or his foresaid successors, I will to my utmost power 
 persecute and oppose." 
 
 The Latin of the last sentence of which reads : 
 
 " Hereticos, schismaticos, et rebelles, eideni domino nostro vel successoribus 
 pnedictis pro posse persequar et impugnabo." — [Pontificate Roman. Edit. Ant- 
 werp. A. I). 1626. 
 
 Here then is the most solemn pledge and vow given by every bishop
 
 ROJIAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 281 
 
 vf Rome, that he will to the utmost of his power persecute and destroy 
 heretics and schismatics.' Does not this indisputable fact, alone, sus- 
 tain my seventh proposition, and prove that the genius of the Latin 
 church is anti- American and essentially opposed to the existence of all 
 free insiiiuliofls I [Time expired.] 
 
 Ha'fpast 10 o'clock, Jl, M. 
 Bishop Pcrcei.l rises — 
 
 You perceive, my friends, that there is scarcely a single tenet of the 
 Roman Catholic faith, which my friend has not brought into view 
 this morning. How then am I to escape the charge of desultoriness, 
 in following such an argument? The whole category, from Alpha to 
 Omega, shoots up before mc, shifting with the rapidity of lightning. 
 It is the necessary effect of the confusion of my learned friend's ideas, 
 and of the order in which he arranged the propositions whose discuS' 
 sion was to call thnm forth. The very first of these propositions — the 
 first word of it — Holy — would have called up for discussion all we 
 have heard on the immorality of the church. As my friend thought 
 fit to commence as he has done, order and method continue to be ex- 
 iled from this debate. He selected the points of attack and tlie plan of 
 campaign; let him not charge on me his own blunders, which he sees 
 now, too late. There was one great question which he should have 
 determined, a /t/ni;jc ,• it would have cutoff all this desultory argu- 
 mentation. It is this. Did Jesus Christ establish an infallible tribu- 
 nal to determine the meaning of scripture ! If so, we are bound by its 
 decisions. If not, the whole Catholic religion fails to the ground. 
 Now, my friends, I endeavored to prove that Christ did establish such 
 a tribunal, and I defy any one to bring from the Bible proof to the 
 contrary. One text alone is sufHcienl to put this mailer at rest for 
 ever. "The churcli is the pillar and ground of the truth." I began 
 to enforce my argument, when my time expired, and my friend seemed 
 unwilling to let slip the opportunity, but got up immedialoly, and said 
 that my last observations of yesterday were unworthy of notice. 
 
 He brought as a parallel to the words, '* I am with ycu ail days eren 
 to the end of the world," the customary ancient salutation, " the Lord be 
 with you ;" and argued from this, that Christ's words mean no more than 
 that! But, my friends, what point of comparison is there between the 
 words, " (iod be with ynu," which one frail man addresses to anotlier, 
 and the words, the solemn promises of the Savior, conmiissioning his 
 apostles to preach his gospel, and cheering their despondency by the 
 divine assuruiifp, " Behold, I am with you all days oven to the end of 
 the world ?" Arc the two cases the same 1 Are we not more sure 
 that (Christ is with his church forever, than we are of the effect of the 
 salutation of a poor fallible man? What Christ does is infallible; 
 what he says will come to pass. If his church was to fail, we should 
 have had an assurance to that iiflTuct in the Bible. There is none. If 
 his church was to fail, we Rhould have had miraculous displays like 
 that of Sinai, and of the descent of the Holy ( Jhost at IVntrrost, mark- 
 ing the eomMiciicement of a new era. Or ('hrist would have come 
 an-ain upon earth, rebuked and banished error, and restored the primi- 
 tivo lustre and beauty of truth. This has not been done, nor ha« such 
 a prophecy been any where made. As ('hrist, by one oblation, has 
 perfected thoso that wcfc to be sanctified for ever ; so has he by one 
 r 2 30
 
 2S2 UEBATfi O.N THK 
 
 revelation, assured us of divine truth in relijrion for over. The work 
 of God then, necdfd no ntonnation. If men's morals were bad, they 
 should have been corrected, but religion should not have been chantred. 
 In a word, as Bishop Smith of Kentucky, has so well said, " Reform- 
 ation should have taken place in the church, not out of it." Let niy 
 friend twist the words of Christ as he pleases, he can find nothing like 
 them in human lany;uagc. Christ was God and his word is wiiat it 
 purports to be. lie is with his church all days, until the consumma- 
 tion of ages. The heavens and the earth may pass away, but his 
 word will never pass away. The worse we become, the more refrac- 
 tory and insubordinate, the farther from apostolic times and fervor and 
 purity, the more need iiave we of authority to control us. So that the 
 power of the church to maintain unity of faith, which Christ so much de- 
 sired for his disciples, is, at least, as necessary now as it hag ever been. 
 The necessity of submitting to the church does not destroy liberty, 
 ■while, on the contrary, the sources of error arid contentions, amonjr 
 sects which undertake to judge for themselves, are endlessly multi- 
 plied. Christ foresaw the time when even the apostles would dis- 
 pute. He knew the itching of the Greeks for novelty, and their prone- 
 ness to disputation — always learning and never coming to the truth — 
 tearing down to-day, and building up to-morrow: one wave of error 
 and doubt following another, and washing away every doctrine, and 
 creed, and sect, in its turn ; and he therefore said : " Hear the church." 
 
 My friend argued in the commencement of this controversy, that 
 since there were as good men among Protestants as among Catholics, 
 why should there be any argument] Let him answer that question 
 since he is the challenger. I cheerfully admit the fact, but what is 
 the inference ] Why that those Protestants were better than their 
 principles. Every man who follows out the Protestant principles may 
 be bad. He may find /lis own code of morals as well as his doctrinal 
 code, in the Bible. Because if he choose to interpret the Bible for 
 himself, in morals as well as in faith, he may argue from it in favor of 
 the lawfulness of any thing he pleases. And is it not true that certain vi- 
 cious acts are done by some men on the pretence of their being allowed 
 by scripture] I could adduce hundreds of instances of the strong and 
 terrible delusions and crimes, for which their victims persuaded them- 
 selves they found a sanction in the Bible. And if the sincerely pious, 
 the humane and charitable of Protestant communions ask them- 
 selves the question: "are the virtues I strive to practice, the fruits of 
 my religion]" they would find that tiieir peculiar tenets have no in- 
 fluence on their conduct. Their piety and the purity of their morals 
 are the effects of naturally good dispositions, of virtuous associations, 
 of principles, which they hold in common with Catholics, a reverence 
 for the divinity and a desire for future happiness, a sense of honor, de- 
 corum, propriety, &c. 
 
 In this kind of virtue even pagans have been eminent, but their 
 virtue is no proof of the goodness of their religion. Aristidcs was 
 just, Scipio chaste, Regulus patriotic, Plato sober, Cincinnatus 
 unambitious, Titus, the delight of the human race, and Antoninus, 
 pious — and yet they were all idolaters ! There are, thank heaven, con- 
 servative principles in man's bosom, which correct in conduct, what 
 is wrong in principle. But if we sincerely desire to know the fruits 
 of the reformation, wo have only to ask its authors. Hear, then, what
 
 nO.MAX CATHOLIC BBLIGION. 283 
 
 Luther was compelled to acknowledge upon this subject. " We see," 
 says he, in his sermon the 2nd Sunday in Advent, " that throug^h the 
 malice of the Devil, men are now more avaricious, more cruel^ more 
 disorderly, more insolent, and much more wicked, than they were 
 under popery." " If any one wish, says Musculus, to see a multitude 
 of knaves, disturbers of the public peace, &c. let him go to a city, where 
 the gospel is preached in its purity, (he means a reformed city) for 
 it is clearer than the light of day, that there- never were pagans 
 more, vicious and disorderly, than those professors of the gospel." 
 »• The thing," says Melancthon, " speaks for itself in this country 
 among the reformed ; their whole time is devoted to intemperance and 
 drunkenness, (immanibus poculis). So deeply are the people sunk 
 into barbarity and ignorance, that many of them would imagine they 
 should die in the night, if they should chance to fast in ilie day." 
 Ad capt. vi. Mat. Neither was the growth of vice and ignorance con- 
 fined to Germany. 'J'hey grew wherever the seeds of the reformation 
 were permitted to take root. " In this nalion^' (England) says Stubbs, 
 after he had made the tour of the island, " I found a ^cntrul decay of 
 pood luorhs, or rather a plain dffcrlinn, or fallin^j; auay frtim Gorf." 
 (Motives to good works, An. loDO.) But hear how the .(dequenl 
 Erasmus describes the fruits of the reformation, lie was indeed a 
 Catholic, but a Catholic whom the Protestants allow to have been 
 impartial. He was an eye and ear witness to the introduction and 
 progress of the reformation, observed its workings witii tb.e ej'e cf a 
 philosopher, and has marked tluin down with tlic accuracy of a can- 
 did and correct iiistorian. "And who," he says, " are the gospel 
 people 1 Look around you and shew me any who has become a bet- 
 ter man. Show me one who, once a glutton, is now turned sober, one 
 who, before vioh-nt, is now meek ; one who, before avaricious. Is 
 now generous; one who, before impure, is now chaste; — 1 can puinl 
 out nmlliludes, who have l)ccome far worse than they were bclbre. In 
 their assemblies, you never sec any of them iieave a sigh ; slicd a 
 tear; or strike his breast, even on the days that are sacred to allliction. 
 Their discourses arc little else, but calumnies against tlie jiriesthood. 
 'i'luy have abolished confession, and f( w of tlun confess tluir sins 
 even to (Jod. Tiny have abrogated fasting; and they wallow in 
 sensuality. They have become Epicureans, for f<ar of lieing Jews. 
 They have cast otf the yoke of human institutions; and along with 
 it, they have shaken (.ff the I^ord. So far from being submissive to 
 bisliops, they arc> (lisol)edii iit to the civil niagistrates. What tumults 
 and seditions mark tluir eonduetl For what trilles do they (ly to 
 arms I St. Paul commanded the first christians to shun llie si'Ciety 
 of the wicked ; and l)ehold ! tlie reformers seek most the snriely of 
 the most corrupted. These are their deliglit. The gospel now flourish- 
 es forsootli ! bfcause priests and monks take wives in opi)f.sition lo 
 human laws and despite of their sacred vows. Own it is tidiv to ix- 
 change evils for evils, and niadnesH to exchange Huiail evils (or great 
 ones." Ep. 47. Lib. .31. John Wesley sayH, speaking of bis own 
 lime not one hundred and fifty years ago, ^^ .1 dimtipnlnl a^r (such 
 as i« the present perhaps beyond all (hat ever were, at ieasl that arn 
 recorded in history) is an a^e wherein (iod is generally forgotten. 
 And n dimijuiird tinlinn, (such an England is at present, in n superla- 
 tive degree) is a nation, a vaht majority of which has not God 'in all 
 their thoughts.' Wc therefore speak an unfjucstionablo truth, when
 
 284 DEnATE ON THE 
 
 we say, there is not on the face of the earth another nation (at least 
 that we have ever heard of) so perfeetly (Ussipalcd and uns^odly ,- not 
 only so totally without God in the work!, hut so openly setting him 
 at defiance. There never was an age, that we read of in history, since 
 Julius Csesar, since Noah, since Adnni, wherein dissipation or un- 
 godliness did so generally prevail, both among high and low, rich and 
 poor." Neither would it be well in a Protestant, in order tn apologise 
 for the disorders, which I have mentioned, to sny — '-that they were 
 only the accidental evils of a moment, evils of a period of change 
 and fermentation." What ! the first fruits of a reformation disorder ! 
 — the first fruits of a system of piety licentiousness! — the first fruits 
 of the rcestablishment of the law of truth, impiety ! Surely such an 
 apology, and yet it is often made, is absolutely weak ! There are multi- 
 plied attestations of it. "• Miserable,'''' says Neal, speaking of the time 
 of Elizabeth, and when the fermentations of the revolutionary vio- 
 lence of the reformation had subsided, '■'■miserable and heal henish was 
 the condition nf the country in regard to religion.'''' That you may 
 form some notion of their condition, hear in what manner the inhabi- 
 tants of London, in a petition presented to the parliament during this 
 reign, express themselves. " In one half our churches," they say,"" we 
 have watchmen that have no eyes ; and clouds that have no water ; 
 and in the other half, there is scarcely one tenth man that takes con- 
 science to wait on his charge. Whereby, the Lord's day is often to- 
 tally neglected ; ignorance increaseth, and wickedness comcth upon 
 us like an armed man." "In the couuty of Cornwall," Neal says, 
 "there were at this period a hundred and forty clergymen, not one of 
 whom could preach a sermon." The situation of other counties was 
 nearly similar. .Judge of the conse(|ucnces. I liave here the autiien- 
 tic documents, Luther's and Wesley's works, to ])rove what 1 have 
 cited. Here is the great father of the reformation ; with Melaucthon 
 at his side, both very unghoslly looking p(!rsonages, on their lenecs, be 
 fore an image of the crucifix !! (Holds up a large and old volume, and 
 describes a circle, with his person, exhibiting the pictured title page, -nt 
 ■which there was continued laughter.) 'I'his edition was published by 
 Lawrence Schenck at Witiemberg, in 15ol. Here is image worship 
 by Martin Luther and his co-reformer ! and beasts, and monsters all 
 around them. Mr. C. says that the popes might have been much 
 worse men than he has described them. Tlint bad acts are soon for* 
 gotten, and good ones more apt to be ebroniflod. 'I'his is, unfortu- 
 nately, not the case, as history but too well attests. 'J'iie virtues are too 
 unobtrusive to attract public notice, and Shakspeare, who was a 
 close observer of human nature, says : If I can quote him correctly ; 
 
 "Tlie <vil, tli:it 111(11 (Jo, liv.s i.fUr tliciii ; 
 The {;o.')d is oil interred willi tlieir l):ii;(s." 
 
 I am sorry to say, my friends. Professor Biggs informs me, that 
 want of time has prevented him from examining the works of Liguori, 
 in reference to my opponent's accusation, based^upon this book. There 
 is a gentleman of learning and integrity, in this city, who is not a Ca- 
 tholic, Mr. Alexander Kinmont, who will devote some time to it, and 
 who will be here at half-past four, P. M. and give us the requisite in- 
 formation. I again say, 1 hope a large audience will be present at the 
 detwuernenl. My friend told us he slurred over what was worst in the 
 charges against Catholics. He has taken a new mode of doing this. 
 He has, indeed, said the worst, and helps it by a vague, but not a slur-
 
 KOMAX CATHOLIC EELIGION. 2S5 
 
 ring insinuation, that there is more. His translation would make the 
 fallen priests' sin as bad as that of the Corinthian that afflicted by his 
 scandalous crime the fervent christians of antiquity, instead of being 
 of a different and less heinous kind. 1 appreciate his motives. The 
 charge is, as I have already stated — the church punishes severely for 
 the slijThtesl fault, and excommunicates the impenitent offender, giving 
 him up to the civil tribunal, for the punishment, in such cases, inflicted 
 in some countries by the law of the land. 
 
 He says, we find from the decrees of councils, that scandal has 
 existed in the church. It is true; and it is also true that Christ pre- 
 dicted its existence. What is the world but the theatre of falsehood 
 and truth 1 a field of tares and wheat ? 
 
 As for the other volume which the gentleman has brought up, the 
 Secrela Monita of the Jesuits, I pronounce it an infamous forgery. It 
 has been proved a hundred times, that no priest had any hand in that 
 document. " The Monita Secreta, or private instructions, a publica- 
 tion sometimes brought forward against the Jesuits," says the learned 
 Charles Butler, of Lincoln's Inn, "is a most infamous work, and 
 wholly beneath notice. Neither the original, nor any certified copy 
 of this work, was ever produced; no circumstances respecting its dis- 
 covery, ever proved ; no collateral fact, to establish its authenticity, 
 ever published. There does not live the Jesuit, or the scholar of a 
 Jesuit, who, if any one of the doctrines which it inculcates, or any 
 one practice which it recommends, were proposed to him, would not 
 spurn it with indignation." Francis Xavier was a Jesuit; our first 
 archbishop, Carroll, was a Jesuit; they were both worthy of being 
 numbered among the best of men, and it was true, noX for <^ed, instruc- 
 tions that madelhem so. The copy of this notorious slander, on one 
 of the most virtuous, learned, and apostolic societies tiiat have ever 
 existed, the gentleman informs us, was brought to this country from 
 France by the secretary of La Fayette! and what was the religion of 
 this secretary 1 A Jacobin, an infidel, one of tiie anti-christian con- 
 spirators, that would iiavc Idoltid all denominations of the followers 
 of Jesus, as well as tbe Catholic, from the whole world 1 \\y priests, 
 it it well known, that such men meant ministers of every creed ; 
 and against all, but chiefly against those best able by learning and 
 virtue to ronfiund them, was their hostility directed. 
 
 A greater than La Fayctle, as a statesman, I mean Thomas Jeffer- 
 lon, said of the Presbyterians, — "Their ambition and tyranny would 
 tolerate no rival if they had power. 'I'lie I'resbyt.-rian clergy are iho 
 loudest, the most intolerant, of all sects, the most tyrannical and am- 
 bitious; ready at the word of the lawgiver, if mch a word could now 
 he obtained, to put the torch to the pile, and to rekindle in this virgin 
 hemisphere the flames in which their oracle, '("alvin, consuniod the 
 poor Servetus, because he could not subscribe the proposition of Cal- 
 vin, that magistrates have a right to exterminate all heretics to llio 
 Calvinistic creed. They pant to re-establish by law, that Holy Lupii- 
 fiilion, which they can now only infuse into j)ulilie opinion." p. .'fvJ2, 
 letter to William Short. Will my friend take this lediimony to the 
 letter? Jefferson had more opportunities for judfrin;^ than La Fayetl*, 
 and he knew this country bettor. Hut, sir, I ncrcc with La Fayette, 
 that ail priests are to be dreaded in this sense ; that none of them should 
 be allowed a particle of political ascendency in this country. Our
 
 280 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 main danger is from ambitious priests of various denominations. When 
 lliey confine themselves to their only sphere of usefulness, they are 
 the best friends of mankind; when they depart from it, 'he worst ty- 
 rants of the darkest ages of Paganism were not more; intolerant tliaii 
 they. A hyena is a lamb, to a minister of Christ, who casts oiT the 
 livery and the peaceful spirit of his master, and turns round to denounce 
 and abuse his fellow-men for obeying the saored dictates of conscience, 
 and adhering to a religion, which, no matter how much persecuted and 
 calumniated, they believe to be divine. I could say much more on this 
 subject, but it is not the most suitable time. 
 
 The charge has been made against all denominations, but my oppo- 
 nent has singled from amono- them the Catholic, and made it the 
 scape-goat, to bear the sins of all to ol)livion. I must however re- 
 mind the audience that the Methodist conference, held, not so many 
 years ago, at Baltimore, denounced the Episcopalians, for contempla- 
 ting an alliance with England, to subvert the liberties of this coun- 
 try; and alleged what they conceived to be no mean proof of trea- 
 sonable designs on the part of the, then, obnoxious Episcopalians. 
 This prescriptive spirit is as old as Christianity. History informs 
 us that the inoffensive disciples of Jesus Christ, even in the golden 
 age of the apostles, were accused, convicted, and put to the most hor- 
 rible death, precisely on the charge of hatinis; all mankind" odio hu- 
 mani generis convicti sunt. Tacitus Annal. lib. xv. This celebra- 
 ted historian terms the ciiristians " sontes, reos, novissima exemjjla 
 meritos — perflagitia invisos," and calls their religion itself" exitialis 
 superstitio." They were, consequently, dressed in the skins of wild 
 beasts, and thus caricatured, the Pagans set their dogs upon them 
 .lesus Christ, himself, when the .Tews could convict him of no crime, 
 was charged by them with not bcimr a friend to Cwsar — Pilate, who 
 'found no fault ' in Christ, was willing to release him, but the Jews 
 cried out, " if thou release this man, thou art not Caesar's friend ;" 
 that moment the just one sank, oppressed beneath the malice and slan- 
 der of his enemies! We, as his disciples, can ex])ect no better fate 
 than our master's. He foretold all that now befalls us. " Blessed 
 are you," says he, '• when men shall revile you and persecute you, 
 and speak all manner of evil against you, untruly, for my sake : be glad 
 and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven." St. INIatth. 
 V. 11, 1-J. 
 
 We have, the gentleman says, no authentic translation of the scrip- 
 tures. This is not true. We have a Latin translation, the vnlgate. 
 That is one authentic translation. We have, moreover, an approved 
 translation in the vernacular, sanctioned by aJl the bishops in the 
 United States, and for sale in every city in the union. But if, by an 
 authentic bible, we mean ene perfeftly immaculate, in point of typo- 
 graphical execution and mechanical neatness, I ask the gentleman, 
 can he pretend that any Protestant denomination has such a one ? 
 Yet my friend says, notwithstanding the facts I quoted yesterday 
 morning, respecting a new bible, that they have a bible that is sufli- 
 cient. If that is the case, where is the use of a new translation ! He 
 speaks of Sixtus' and Clement's bible. That only shews that the 
 popes never taught that their personal opinions were to be received, 
 as articles of faith, as my friend would persuade us they did. Pri- 
 vate authority should not presume to alter the authorised version. 
 This wag the amount of the prohibition.
 
 EOJIAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOX. 287 
 
 Now to post the books with my friend on the subject of the bible, 
 I ask him if he was not infatuated, for I really cannot call it by any 
 other name, when he said he could show us a bible never soiled by 
 the thumb of a monk, and took us rigiit into the midst of twenty two 
 inonasleries, on mount Athos,/«r Iht pronf? Home in his Inlroduclion 
 to the study of the Bible, vol. 1. p; 22-2, quotes Oudin and Michaclis, 
 for the opinion that it was written by an Aecinet — and written too, say 
 Burbcr and Wetstein, for a church or a monastery. Hornc says the Aec- 
 mets were a class of rnonks in the ancient church, who flourished partic- 
 ularly in the east in the fifth century. They were so called, because 
 they had divine service performed without interruption, in their 
 churches. They divided themselves into three bodies, each of which 
 officiated in turn, and relieved the other so that their churches were 
 never silent either night or day. This very Mss. Codex Alexandrinus, 
 in the British ."Museum, contains a list of the Psalms sung by these 
 monks ! 
 
 My friend says that our getting the bible from monks, docs not 
 leave us beholden to them for its spirit. This is a disingenuous eva- 
 sion. I did not say that it did, but this last rjuestion belongs to quite 
 another category. .My opponent says that tlic bible, like the univeise, 
 must testify to its own divine origin — it is the work of God. In this 
 he is completely at issue with one of the most enlightened Protestants 
 of the day, bishop Smith, of Kentucky. " These christians," says 
 the bishop, in his review of Van Dyck on christian union, " have done 
 well in ao^reeing upon those sound prini-ipks of investigation which 
 lead them to substantial, and sufficient agreement, what the canon of 
 scripture is. The principle is correct, and therefore all honest minds 
 rest satisfied, in the same results. Abandon the question of the one- 
 ness of the bible, to be agitated and kept afloat on the perturbed 
 ocean of expedience, as the ([uestion is, respecting the oneness of tho 
 church, and very soon we should have amongst us almost as many 
 books claiming to be bibles, as we have sects claiming to be churches. 
 And what are the laws of evidence, guided by which, all christians 
 come to such a desirable agreement as to the canon of the scripture 1 
 Do we settle that grave point by apjieals to \\u- scriplure alone 1 Do 
 we require a " thus saith the Lord," for tb<- admission of any book 
 within the compass of the bible 1" Ay, this is the (|uestion, do wo 
 lake up the bibh; from the shelf, and putting it to our car, ask it what 
 it has to say for itself? If W( do, we shall lay it aside without re- 
 ceiving the desired answer, pretty miirh as ihr Indian rbief did, when 
 the Spanish missionary liamh d him the good book. — " ll says noth- 
 ing," said the Indian. How then shall we |)roeeed in this investiga- 
 tion? " We select," says bishop Smith, " some perio<i of christian 
 anti(|uity by universal consent anterior to great corruptions, and that 
 wc may be safe, anterior to great causes tending to eorrnjition ; the 
 year 3llO for exaniph-, prior to the conversion of < 'onstanlinr- ; or th«i 
 year 250, when the documenlft of the then existing Christianity wrro 
 abundant; or the year '200, when men were living who had ronvrr»n'd 
 with the disciphs of John, and we ask, what hooks were renivrd by 
 christians, every where, an<l with one consent, as sacred bookK; and 
 these, and no others, we admit into our ranon. Then with the ut- 
 most care we look into every jirevions writer, for concurring or tor op- 
 posing evidence. Finding every thing nearly elear and HaliHfaclory, 
 we repair to the books of the .Now Testament themselves for acci-
 
 288 DEBATE ON TUF, 
 
 dental and internal evidence, to endorse for and confirm the whole. 
 And here we rest satislied that we have grasped the thuth." 
 
 How will the champion of Protestantism extricate himself from 
 this dilemma 1 Does he confess his ignorance of the leading doctrines 
 of eminent Protestant divines'? They find a unanimous consent. 
 
 He talks of two great lies ! I like strong language, but this is such 
 as Milton's Satan would have better used, than a professing christian. 
 How Jews and Infidels will triumph, when assured by my opponent 
 that Christ's preaching and miracles, so signally failed, that the largest 
 body of christians in the entire world, have been based upon two great 
 lies, since the year 250, or about that period ! Take away the 
 2,000,000 Catholic and Greek christians that believe in these two 
 great truths, and think it blasphemy to call them lies, and what be- 
 comes of the few stragglers that remain in the valleys of the Alps, 
 or where you please — the " rari. nantes in gurgtte vastu?" Did Christ 
 expend all his labor, all his blood, to give mankind, one kind of 
 idolatry for another 1 Credat Judxus. 
 
 Now, my friends, dispossess your minds of prejudice ; forget your 
 religious education, if possible; take up the 13ible, and see if it be 
 wholly silent upon these two great truths, not lies. For 2, or 3,000,000 
 who have not ail lost their reason, adhere to these divine doctrines, 
 which they find in this blessed volume. I speak unto you as wise 
 and pious men. Judge you, yourselves, and do not let others judge for 
 you, what I say. I quote the Bible which you all admit, as I have 
 hitherto quoted Protestant authority, which you admit on all cases, to 
 be not over friendly to Roman Catholic doctrines. I disdained to avail 
 myself of the weeds which you threw over your garden lualls, I mean im- 
 moral and degraded ministers, as my opponent has done with discarded 
 firiests, to cast your doctrine with them. With such, we hold no fel- 
 owship. The pure of life, the men of honor and of learning, whom 
 we receive from your ranks, we cherish. From the Bible, then, the 
 fathers, the most eminent Protestants, I shall select my proofs, that, 
 on these two imputed lies, the Catholic church, like St. Paul, so Christ 
 is her witness, speaks the truth in righteousness. 
 
 To begin from the Fible. If there is a single tenet of christian 
 faith, clearly established in the Bible, I contend that it is the real 
 presence of Jesus Christ, in the adorable sacrament of the Eucharist. 
 And if we cannot take in the literal sense, the words of Christ, 
 " This is my body ; This is my blood," the plainest that God or man 
 could utter, but iimst adopt, instead of this, some one of the two 
 thousand meanings, invented by the sacramentarians, and the anti- 
 sacramentarians, for this text, we may bid adieu to the doctrine of the 
 intelligibility of scripture. I distinguish two principal epochs in the 
 Gospel narrative; the first, when Jesus Christ promises to give us his 
 body and blood in the Eucharist; the second, when \\e gives them to 
 us. Before announcing his desire of bequeathing to the world this 
 divine legacy, as we read in the 6th chapter of the (iospel of St. John, 
 he wrought a splendid miracle, even the feeding of 5000, with a few 
 loaves, in the wilderness, to prove himself the God whom the heavens 
 and the earth obey, and thus conciliate the faith of the multitude in 
 the divinity of his mission, and the truth of his doctrines. He speaks 
 of the absolute necessity of this faith — of its scarcity, and expressly 
 declares that the sight of his miracles, or the testimony of the sense, 
 cannot beget faith. In a word, that no man can come to him, unless
 
 ROJIAX CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 289 
 
 his father Jraiv him. He then continues his divine instructions, by 
 alluding to the miracle which he had wrought, in which was a most 
 striking resemblance to the greater miracle which he designed to 
 work, viz. the multiplication of his own body and blood, for the daily, 
 the super-substantial bread, or food, of men, with whom, as he else- 
 where assures us, in scripture, il is his delight to dwell. He reminds 
 his hearers of all the wonders wrought in their favor, in the old Law, 
 shews them all the wisdom, the power, the love of Heaven, displayed 
 in their behoof, from the commencement of their history ; how dear 
 Ihey were to God, and further and better gifts, which, if want of faith op- 
 posed no obstacle, so many divine pledges gave them a right to antici- 
 pate. The greatest of Kings, even Solomon, in all his glory, had 
 nothing better to give them than gold and silver, a city, a tract of land. 
 No earthly king can compote with God, in conferring benefits. This 
 the history of the Jews sufliciently attested ; and the miracle of the 
 loaves brought affeclingly to their minds, what their fathers had told 
 them, what they, themselves, had read in the testimony, of the manna 
 or miraculous bread, which, for so many years had been showered 
 down from heaven, to feed their ancestors in the desert. They were 
 thus prepared for all that God could accoinplish to show his excess or 
 LOVE. They whom his father called, who are taught of God, hear with 
 faith; they whom his father called jw/, hear with incredulousness, 
 while he thus announces his mvri intended benefactions. 
 
 " This is the bread which came down from heaven. If any eat of 
 this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give is my 
 ^esh for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among 
 themselves, saying, " how can this man give us his flesh to eat 1 
 Then Jesus said to them, ' Amen, amen, I say to you, except you eat 
 th<; flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have 
 life in you. He that eatelh my fl<^sh, and drinketh my blood, hath 
 everlasting life ; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh 
 is meat indeed ; and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my 
 flesh, and drinketh tny blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the 
 living Father sent me, and I live by the F'ather, so he that eatelh me, 
 the same also shall live by me. This is the bread lliat came down 
 from Heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and aro dead ; he 
 that eatelh this bread shall live forever.' These things he said, leach- 
 ing in the synagogue at Capernaum. Many, therefore, of his disci- 
 ples, hearing it, said, this is a hard saying, and who can hear it? 
 But Jesus kiTowing, in himself, thai his discinlcs nmrniured at this, 
 said to them, ' dolh this acanclalixe yoii ? If tli<n, you shall see iho 
 Son of man ascend up when- he was before ] It is the spirit that 
 quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing. Hut there are some of you 
 that belifve not.' F'or Jesus kni'W from tlie beginning, who ibey were 
 that iliii not believe, and wlio he was that would betray liini. And ho 
 said, ' therefore no man ran eome to me unless it i)e given liini by my 
 Father.' After this many of his disciples went baek, and walked no 
 more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve, will yon, al»o go 
 away? And Simon Peter answered him, F.ord, to whom shall we gol 
 thou hast the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and know 
 that thou art the Christ, the Son f)f (Jod. Jesus answered them, 
 ' have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you io a devil.' Now he 
 meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for this same wan nbout to 
 betray him, whereas he wa» one of the twelve." 
 Z J7
 
 290 DEBATE 0.\ THE 
 
 We have here a continuous argument, and faith and infidelity, pic- 
 tured to the life; murmuring at impossibilities then, as well as now, 
 rebuked by the Savior, and acquiescence in his word and his love, by 
 Peter, as the first believer of the divinity of the Soit ok God — of his 
 REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist. If he spoke figuratively, would he 
 have suffered his disciples, who understood the reality, to leave him ; 
 he who came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel 1 Would 
 he have suffered all his disciples to perish, rather than tell them this 
 single fact, that they misunderstood him ? If he spoke of a figurative 
 presence, the words, " hoiv can ynu believe when yon see the Son cf 
 man, ascending up to Heaven, where he was before," would have had no 
 sense. In the Catholic view of the Eucharist, it is divinely strong. 
 If you cannot believe, now, that my flesh and blood are visible, pal- 
 pable objects of every sense, that I can give them to you for food, 
 how much less can you believe it, when you see the Son of Man as- 
 cending up to Heaven, &c. The flesh surely profiteth nothing to un- 
 derstand this mystery — it requires the faith and the spirit of faith, to 
 impose silence on the senses, and say, with St. Peter, " Lord, to whom 
 should we go— Thou hast the words of eternal life." This is the 
 bread which strengthens us to live out successive ages. This is not 
 an immoral doctrine. It elevates man to know that he is thus loved. 
 That he is of a holy race, a purchased people, a royal priesthood, 
 the especial object of incessant wonders. That he beholds God with 
 him, Immanuel, in Bethlehem, house of bread, hid beneath the sacra-' 
 mental veil, but destined, and prepared by this nourishment, to enjoy 
 him hereafter, without a veil, in the rich eflTulgence of the beatific 
 vision. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 1 1 o\lock, A. M. 
 Ala. Campbell rises — 
 
 My opponent in commencing observed, that almost the whole circle 
 of Catholic tenets came in review in my last speech. If such be an 
 error, whose fault is it "? I have no respondent. How many hours has 
 the gentleman spent in reading against time, without any relevancy 
 to the questions at issue, or to the proposition before us. And 
 when he does reply, it is frequently to somethmg said a day or two 
 ago. 
 
 I selected two points yesterday afternoon as comprehending the 
 substance of the error opposed in my fifth proposition, and even to the 
 present moment he has not presumed to meet me on these vital mat- 
 ters to discuss them. In my last speech, I therefore not only recapitu- 
 lated some important items ; but argued one or two specifications, in 
 proof of the proposition legally before us. I also introduced in part my 
 seventh proposition, and so far discussed its bearings as to show the 
 anti-American, and anti-Republican theories of the Latin church. 
 
 The bishop has, indeed, this time, selected the doctrine of transub- 
 stantiation : but has he adverted to the various points of argument I 
 have made \ Ought he not, at least, to have glanced at these points, 
 in order 1 
 
 1. The incongruity of the idea of a sacrament with that of transub- 
 stantiation. 
 
 •2. The unreasonableness of preferring the literal to the figurative, in 
 the interpretation of a phrase common in scripture, which m no other 
 case is so interpreted by the party themselves.
 
 BOMAIf CATHOLIC BEXIOIOX. 291 
 
 3. The arrogance of the priests in assuming the power of working 
 miracles, for the salce of a forced interpretation of a phrase without 
 precedent or analogy. 
 
 4. The belief of such a transubstantiation destroys the credibility of 
 all testimony, human and divine, and necessarily tends to atheism. 
 
 5. That the institution of the supper is commemorative and not ex- 
 piatory, havintr nothing of the nature of a sacrifice for sin. 
 
 To which of these important considerations has the gentleman re- 
 plied in his last speech ? Has he formally and specifically met any 
 one of them 1 
 
 It was also alleged, that the admission of such a pretension, on the 
 part of any priest, was debasing and paralizing to the human under- 
 standing, and subjected to imposture and fraud those who implicitly 
 acquiesced in it There are few persons, who so observantly trace 
 moral effects to their causes, as to be able duly to apprrciate how 
 much influence in the formation of human character may plulosophi- 
 cally be ascribed to sucii idle, absurd, and irrational pretensions. 
 We sometimes see with what little power, reason, philosophy, and 
 experience combat the belief in witches, ghosts, apparitions, and 
 other legendary tales, the effect of the nursery and early impressions. 
 When the imagination is once filled with such tales and delusions, it 
 requires a power equal to the dispossession of demons to rectify it, and 
 elevate it above such a tormenting infatuation. 
 
 The gentleman, indeed, with a show of respect for scripture, seem- 
 ed to appeal to the 6th chapter of John, as though it spoke of the 
 same thmg. Now, unless this discourse relates to the last supper, 
 and was delivered with respect to it, linw idle to seek to prove from 
 it what was never said in it! It was a discourse upon loaves and 
 manna, delivered to the people of Cai>ernaum in their synagogue, on 
 the occasion of our Lord having fed five thousand men in the desert, 
 upon a few loaves and fishes. And as at the well f)f Jac'li ho spoke 
 of the loater nf life ; sy hero, when the mirarle of loaves is the topic, 
 he speaks of the hread if lift- .■ and of ealin'j; th.it bread, as to tlu; wo- 
 man of Samaria, he spoke of drinhlnp; that water. Mc goes on to 
 apeak fig\iratively oi cominiiio him, enlint^Wnw, niwrhuni^rn'm^, never 
 thirsting again, fee., and in tlie most figurative style, continues his 
 discourse, till at l;ist, after he had s|)okeii of tlnir eating )ii.-< flesii and 
 drinking his blood, he told them that the words he spoke " were snirit 
 and ///■'•"" not literal fle/Jt and hlond — that flesh and blood could not 
 profit the soul. An(l so the apontle I'eter nnderstood him when ho 
 said, " Lord thou hast the words of eternal life." In metaphori- 
 cal language, it is usual t(j say ' one /itinf^rm and l/tirxln afl(.'r knowl- 
 edge, righteousness,' &c. ; and to say that one cats what he hi-lieves 
 and receives into his mind. Thus says David : "I found thy woj-d, 
 and I ^id eal it." The transubstantiation of John vi. is the very op- 
 posite of the transubstantiation btfore uh. It was flish into bread, M 
 the figure given in John; and bread into flesli, as the figure fiven in 
 the Eiichai-iKt. "I am the living bread." " My fl'sb is meal, in<leo<l," 
 «» My blood is drink, indeed." " The bread whieb I give is my Ursh." 
 
 But the gentleman relies upon Uie Siivior's leaving tluin in error, 
 euffering them to go away in a mistake. If ibis were true; I can find 
 a similar ease. To the proud and captious, bo often deiijncd no reply. 
 Hence, when somn wont away froui his discourae, allegin^r that bti
 
 292 PSBATE ON THE 
 
 was born in Nazareth, he took no pains to correct the error, thongh 
 it would seem that a sinorlo word would have decided the case. He 
 knew what manner of S|)irit they were of, and never said once; I was 
 not born in Nazareth; but in Bethlehem. But to conclude, the sub- 
 ject of discussion in John vi. is about receiving him — coming to him, 
 believing him to bo the Messiah, &c., and was addressed to ambitious 
 obstinate Jews. The subject in Mattli. xxvi. and 1 Cor. xi. is his 
 Savior's death, sacrifice and the commemoration of it, addressed to his 
 disciples. It is, then, every way illogical to reason from the one to 
 the other, as parallel cases. 
 
 But I would ask, how is a man to believe the same sense at one 
 time, and disbelieve it at another, when in reading Paul or Matthew 
 he sees the words, " this is wy body,'''' and when looking on the table, 
 he sees not tiesh but bread, why should he believe what he sees in 
 the former case, and disbelieve what he sees in the latter case. That 
 he sees bread is certain ; why not then believe his eyesi Or, if he 
 rejects them here, why not reject them there, on the words, " This is 
 my body 1" and believe that it reads, " this represents my body '." 
 But even after the consecration, and after Jesus had said, "This is 
 my blood," he clearly teaches, that he spoke in a figure : for, adds 
 he, " I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine with you," &c. 
 And Paul, after consecration says, " He that eateth this bread, and 
 drinketh this cup unworthily" — &c. 
 
 Were it, however, converted into flesh, we would have to ask, 
 vhat sanctifying power 'm flesh?, or, what spiritual food would there 
 be in the human flesh of the Son of God 1 And were it omnipresent, 
 how would the eating of it as a sin offering, take away sin from the 
 conscience 1 ! The virtue was in the altar, on which the sacrifice 
 was offered : for " it is the altar that sanctifies the gift." And had 
 it not been for the true and proper divinity of the Son of God, his 
 flesh as a sin oflfering, could in no sense profit any person. But the 
 
 Eriest can bring down the divine Savior from heaven, and oflfer him, 
 ody, soul, and divinity, as often as he pleases; and have the people 
 adore both him and the miracle in his hand ! ! He that can believe 
 all this, is not to be reasoned with. 
 
 The gentleman's remarks on, " lam with you,''^ even after so many 
 hours' reflection since 1 expounded them, have not the slightest refer- 
 ence to any thing I have said. I could not have thought it possible 
 for a child to have so misunderstood and misapplied them. I need 
 not again repeat them. They are wholly misrepresented. He has 
 "defied heaven and earth." What a daring logician I Yes; he 
 "defied heaven and earth," on what ? To weaken his argument on 
 infallibility ! It would be hard indeed, lo weaken that, which has no 
 strength. Perliaps he might defy Omnipotence to weaken what does 
 not exist. But the bishop is just as fallible as your humble servant; 
 and his church (I may with confidence say) is even more fallible 
 than the Protestant church : for, our rule of faith is perfect and com- 
 plete : his rule, as I have shown, is imperfect and immoral. 
 
 " But Protestants are better than their principles !" Indeed ! Their 
 principles are the bible alone. Their acknowledged principles, cer- 
 tainly, are those to which my friend refers! A good argument ! I 
 read the other day something like this— r" Bad as human nature is, 
 there is no man on earth bad enough to make a goo^l papist.'-' " The 
 system cannot be carried out fully by any person." Would my learn-
 
 HOMAN CATUOLIC HELIGION. 293 
 
 ed antagonist call this a good argument against his system? And is 
 it not as logical as that which he has just alleged ? 
 
 The bishop accuses Mr. Smith of ingratitude. I have something 
 more to do than to defend Mr. Smith from such groundless imputa- 
 tions. Everyone who abjures Catholicism, is a wretch : for Protest- 
 ants are all heretics ! The best return Mr. Smith or any person can 
 make for favors received, is to disabuse the minds of his benefactors 
 from error, if they happen to entertain it. The best and most grate- 
 ful return that I could make to a Roman Catholic benefactor, for any 
 benefit conferred, would be, if possible, to convince and save him from 
 the most ruinous and destructive heresy that time records, or ever 
 will record. 
 
 Next comes the Secrela Mimita ,- for we must circumnavigate another 
 circle in this speech also. The Secrela Manila, then, is just as accu- 
 rate and fair a view of the spirit, design, and policies, of that ordey, as 
 can be given. Such is our faith : and that on no mean testilnony 
 either. 
 
 We shall give some account of the discovery of this said book : 
 
 '■ " We are indebted for this •' terrible book" of Jesuits' 
 
 «ecret«, to the parliament of Paris. They passed the act to abolish the Jesuits 
 lociety : and the execution came on the Jesuit college like a thunder stroke. 
 Their palace was surrounded by troojis, and their papers and books, and these 
 " Secret Instructions ' were seized before they hacf heard that the parliament 
 had tiiken up their c.tjsc!" 
 
 The reasons which the parliament of France, in 17C2, gave for ex- 
 tirpating this order, which has thirty-nine times been proscribed, speak 
 volumes : 
 
 "The consequences of their doctrines destroy the law of nature: break all the 
 bonds of civil Society: authorizing l> ing, theft, perjury, the utmost umlcuiiness, 
 murder, and all sinsl Their doctrines root nut all sentiments of huiuunity: excite 
 rebellion: root out all religion: and mbstilule all sorts of superstition, blasphe- 
 my, irreligion, idolatry." 
 
 Other reasons for the suppression of this order, will be found in the 
 following extract from their oath : 
 
 '• In ihe presence of Almiglily (lod and of ul! the snint», to 
 
 you. n>y ghostly father, I do declare that his lioline»», pope , is Christ's 
 
 vicar-generni, and the only liead of the universal church throughout the curlh: 
 and that by virtue of the keys given him by my Savior, Jesus Clirisl, he hath 
 power to depose heretical king-., princes, states, conunonwealllii'. and govern- 
 ments: all being illegal, without his sacred ronfirmntioii; and that thry may 
 »afely be <lcstroved. Therefore I, to the utmost of nly power, "hall and will de- 
 fend his doctrine, and his holiness' rights and customs agninst all usurper*." Ac. 
 
 " I do renounce and dig own any allegiance ti» due to niiy hrrcticnl kin(f, 
 prince, state, named I'rottstants, or obedience to an) of their inferior niogislratcs, 
 or officers." 1 • I 
 
 "I do further promise and declare that notwithstanding I nm ilisprnsrd with, 
 to assume any religion heretical for the projMigHtion of tin: mother church's in- 
 terest, — to keep secret and private, all her agent's counsels," Kc. 
 
 " All which I, A. |{. do swear by ihe bUsse.l Trinity, and the blessed siicrm- 
 mcnt, which I am now to receive. And I call all the heavenly nnd glorioui 
 hosts above, to witnris these my real intentions, to kiep this my oath. In tei- 
 timony hereof, 1 take this most blessed sacrament of the cucharist, and set my 
 han-l and seal." 
 
 Such is the order of men tPBiored by Saint I'ius VII., who, for re- 
 storing thorn and tin- inqiiiHition, ("the vici! of ibo dark a(fCB ! !") ha* 
 been beatified, and cnrullod in the Koniaii he;iviiiH, a» a Hairit of the 
 first order! Is it not in sinking and tlirillmtr luirmony with tlio ge- 
 nius of our iDSlilulioiis, to have priests of this order, all over iho land 
 z2
 
 294 DEHATE ON THE 
 
 in chare:e of the souls and consciences of American citizens 1 ! So 
 much for Jesuitism. 
 
 I ought not to have called errors " lies," as the apostle John, and 
 the other apostles, have done. Why ? All errors are lies ; and all 
 who propagate them are, hy the same apostle, John, called liars. "All 
 liars," says he, (teachers of error,) shall have their part in a certain 
 lake. Was it not impolite for the apostle, thus to use such a vulgar 
 style ■? I must, then, have fallen into bad company, when I said, the 
 man of sin stands upon two cardinal lies! 
 
 Next comes the doctrine of majorities ; and these are every thing 
 with a Romanist. They are the root, and reason, and illustration, and 
 proof of infallibility. The man who seeks the truth by the tests of 
 sincerity, majority, and antiquity, will never find it on earth. This is 
 amply true of the present and all past ages. There are sincere Turks, 
 Jews, pagans, infidels. There are very ancient errors, heresies, and 
 sects. And, as for majorities, from Enoch till now, they have gener- 
 ally, if not always, been wrong in religion. Where was the majority, 
 when Noah was building his ark 1 when Abraham forsook Urr of the 
 Chaldees? when Lot abandoned Sodom 1 when Moses forsook 
 Egypt 1 when Elijah witnessed against Ahab ? when Daniel and his 
 companions were captives in Babylon ? when Malachi wrote? when 
 the Baptist preached ] when Christ was crucified ? when the apostles, 
 and many of the first Christians, were persecuted ? ! 
 
 And, compared with paganism, when had Roman Catholicism the 
 majority ■? Strange, indeed, that infallibility, after all this, should 
 come to be the attribute of majorities ! But the bishop, in his speech 
 against Luther, delivered here in October last, said there were one 
 hundred and fifty million Roman Catholics. I cannot find them on the 
 earth, unless I count many millions of atheists and pagans along with 
 them. But, after a more accurate search, I find there are in all, but 
 one hundred and ten millions of professed Roman Catholics, and 
 amongst these, millions of sceptics : of Protestants, there are seventy- 
 five millions; and of the Greek church, above forty millions; making 
 at least one hundred and fifteen millions of Protesters against the 
 man of sin. If, then, there be anything in majorities, the Romanists 
 have it not. InfiiUibility is somewhere else. The time comes, (and 
 may heaven speed its flight!) when the kingdom, and the greatness 
 of the kingdom, under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people 
 of the saints of the Most High, when all dominions shall serve and 
 obey him. But Babylon will never see that day ; for she will be 
 buried in her own ruins before it comes. And when the angel, with the 
 trumpet of everlasting good news, shall sound the hour of her judgment 
 as come, and announce the triumph of the gospel ; then, but not till then, 
 will the majority be on the side of God, and Christ, and heaven. 
 
 I am only now at the place where I left off in my former speech, 
 and my half hour is almost expired. I cannot again condescend to 
 such a sacrifice of time to so many points. 
 
 I was showing, when I sat down, that the theory of spiritual des- 
 potism always precedes the practical display of it ; and that the theory 
 of the terrific and appalling despotism of papal Rome, is to be found 
 in principles and theories promulged, and believed, and taught, before 
 the reign of darkness and terror began. 
 
 The fact of putting the bible under a bushel, of forbidding the read-
 
 RO>IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 295 
 
 ing of it, of swearing for ever to interpret it as it has been interpreted, 
 of not permitting men to think or speak for themselves on religion, of 
 teaching them the power of the priests to work miracles, to create a 
 god out of bread, that the people might adore it and them, of making 
 a supreme judge of controversy out of one of the parties, or combining 
 the legislative, executive, and judicial powers in one person, (the 
 model of the most cruel despotism,) is the paragon of supreme tyranny, 
 never surpassed, never equaled on earth. 
 
 How any person can, from such a system, elaborate a single ele- 
 ment of free government, or of civil liberty, I cannot imagine. Indeed, 
 the radical ideas of papal supremacy, are as antipodal to republican 
 doctrine and American institutions, as are the zenith and the nadir! 
 But my time has fled. 
 
 TSvehe o'clock, M. 
 BfSHOP PURCEU, rises — 
 
 t have only to stand here for half a minute, and to open the bible, to 
 reduce to dust the arguments which it costs my opponent such a waste 
 of time and labor to construct. Was not Civil and Ecclesiastical power 
 united in the high priest, by the Almighty God, himself 1 Is not this re- 
 corded in Deuteronomy, and admitted by my worthy antagonist 1 What 
 
 says the scripture. 
 
 " If you perceive, that there be among you, a hani and ilouhtl'ul ninltfr in 
 judgment, between blood ami blood, cause and cause, leprosy and leprosy; and 
 thou sec that the words of judgment within the gates, do vary ; arise and go up 
 to the place which the Lonithy God shall choose. And tliou thaltcoiue to the 
 priests of ihe Levilical race, and to the judge that sliull be at thai time; and 
 
 thou shall ask of them, and they chall shew thee the truth of the judgment. And 
 thou shall do whatsoever they shall say, that preside in the place, which th« 
 Lord shall choose, and what they shall teach thee accordms to this law: and 
 
 thou shalt follow their sentence, neither shall thou dechne to the right hand nor 
 to the left hand. Bui he that will be proud, and refuse to obey the conmiand- 
 nient of the priest, who ministereth at that time to the Lord f Jod, ami the decree 
 of the judge, that man shall die, ami thou shalt take away the evil from I^rnrl." 
 — Deut. xvii. 8, et seq. 
 
 Here is civil power, and ecclesiastical authority blended m one 
 tribunal, of the presiding priest and of the I.evilical ministry, and the 
 penalty of death ordained by (Jod, against him who contends for private 
 judfriient and refuses to obey. 
 
 Now, my friends, if Mr. ('. seriously intends ti employ reason and 
 argument, instead of the calumny and abuse too often employed in re- 
 ligious discussions heretofore, why does he rake up from a pile of 
 rubbish, sad memorial of the havoc made by llie enemies of the Je- 
 suits, and exhibit the tattered, and sordid, iloniments found there, lor 
 proof? I expected "■ honor hrt^/it" from my friend, when we beg;in 
 this debate, and I still expect it. Have I not dealt fairly myselH 
 Have I gone to the sewers and streets, as he has done to lho«eof(*rncow 
 and Paris for the Simlo .Voni7«, for evidence a[r,iinst the ProteRtantN t 
 No! I have (|uoted their most respectable iiiitlifiritieK— I have taken up 
 iSouthey, and Waddingion, and such writers. I do not think it honor- 
 able to stoop down, and pick up from the gutter, all the vile trash, that 
 Protestant.H have written against one another ; much less that, which 
 the enemies of Protestants may have invented; and I do not expect 
 this course frr-in my frieml. in his attempt to f;isten upon Catholics, the 
 sins which they abhor. " Why did the p:.rlianient of Paris destroy tho 
 society of the Jesuits V I will tell the gentleman. Because ihejr
 
 296 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 had become the disciples of the man, who boasted that " he was tired of 
 hearing it said, that twehc men had been able to convert the world from 
 paganism to Christianity, for that he would let it be seen that one man 
 was able to unchristianize it." This was the boast of Voltaire, who, 
 at the head of his letters to the infidel conspirators leagued with him 
 against revelation, was accustomed to write the words ; '■^ Ecrasons Fin- 
 fame,^^ Lei ns crush ike wreich, meaning Jesus Christ and his holy re- 
 ligion. These anti-christian machinations could never succeed, and 
 their authors were too wide awake in their hostility to the christian 
 faith, not to be aware of the fact, as long as religion commanded the 
 services of so learned and exemplary a body of men as the Jesuits. 
 In all the entire world, in China and in France, in America and in 
 Europe, society, as well as pure religion was their debtor. In every 
 language they wrote the most admirable treatises on the mathematics, 
 on medicine, on geography. Their historians, orators, poets, mission- 
 aries, have never been surpassed. Mr. Secretary Cass and Richard 
 Peters of Philadelphia, recorder of the Supreme Court, will inform 
 you, for they have examined it, how perfectly accurate is their map of 
 Lake Superior with its 1500 miles of coast, which one or two of these 
 fathers, while seeking the red man, for Jesus Christ, in their frail 
 canoe, found time to survey. In a word the Jesuits were ornaments 
 to human nature, but they had, at the same time, the mi'aforiune to be 
 the ornaments and the pillars of Religion. This Voltaire knew. His 
 infidel colleagues knew it. And as they were conscious that the lives 
 of the Jesuits defied their malice, and the learning of the Jesuits would 
 continue to confound their sophistry, they had no resource but to op- 
 press them by calumny. Hence they spared no pains to render them ob- 
 noxious to the Parliament of Paris, and reproduced the Sccreia Moniia, 
 fabricated by some anonymous calumniator in 1G12. The sp.urionsness 
 of this paper has been every where admitted by the critics. Let not any 
 one who reads this controversy on the theatre of its exposure, learn 
 from it that erudition and honor are at so low an ebb in the United 
 States, as to admit as argument, an appeal to so contemptible a slander. 
 As to the oath of the Jesuits, it is taken from the same book ! There 
 is no Jesuit that ever takes such an oath. Every Jesuit in the United 
 States, who is not a native of the country, and intends to reside in 
 it, has taken the oath of allegiance to our government. And in George- 
 town, in the District of Columbia, in Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky, 
 are native American Jesuits, some of the most whole-souled and tho- 
 rough-going republicans in the world, prepared, at any moment, to imi 
 tate the patriotic example of the first of their order in the United States, 
 Arch-bishop Carroll, the friend and associate of Washington. In this 
 spirit they are rivaled by the rest of our clergy. That venerable 
 old priest, now before you, has done for half a century, and specially 
 in those perilous times that tried men's souls, when a formidable ene- 
 my was on our frontier, within our borders — nay in our very capital^ 
 and committing our nob. est monuments to the flames, more for freedom, 
 happiness and the union, than any other living man, perhaps, of ihe 
 clerical profession. The Latin poems, which he published during the 
 war, breathing the energy and spirit of the songs of the Greeks, when 
 they struck down the tyrants, were translated into English, and 
 widely circulated. General Harrison, if he were here to-day, would 
 inform you, as he has informed me, by my fire-side, what loyal men
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 297 
 
 and true were the Catholic missionaries of Indiana and Missouri, in 
 auld long syne. How they exerted all their influence, and it was not 
 inconsiderable, to keep the Indians faithful to the cause of free govern- 
 ment. My friends, if 1 must have an opponent, let me have an honorable 
 one: let me have facts and proofs, instead of slanders and insinuations. ' 
 And, to say all in one word, in answer to the charges against the 
 Jesuits, Why did the parliament of Paris restore the order in Francel 
 Ay, that is the question. 1 will tell the gentleman. Because they 
 discovered their blunder, and the injustice they had committed in sup- 
 pressing them, and the prostrate state of education, after the .Tesuits 
 had been expelled the colleges. Then, with the magnanimity of the 
 corporation of London, a few years ago, who honorably chipped oflF 
 the inscription from the pillar, which, like a tall bully, raised its head 
 and lied, by attributing tlie conflagration of 16Gt> to the Roman Catho- 
 lics, did the parliament of Paris make partial atonement for the wrong 
 done to the Jesuits. These are examples worthy of our imitation in a 
 free and happy republic, where the iron heel of religious bigots should 
 not be allowed to bend so much as a blade of grass ! 
 
 I continue my argument for the real presence. I shall first produce 
 the sequel of the scripture evidence, and then reply to the objections 
 of my friend. The institution of the eucliarist is related by three 
 evangelists, and by St. Paul ; by St. Matthew, who wrote his gospel, 
 in India, seven years after the death of Christ; by St. Mark, who 
 wrote his gospel in Rome, two years later, under the direction of St. 
 Peter; by St. Luke, whose gospel was written in the nineteenth year 
 of the Christian era, in Asia; and by St, Paul, from Macedonia, in 
 Greece, fifty years later than St. Matthew, and who had learned what 
 he teaches, not from the other evangelists, but from the revelations 
 made to himself by Jesus Christ in person ; all writing at diff'erent 
 times, and in difl^erent places, and yet all using the self-same words, 
 the plainest in the languages in which they wrote, or in any other, 
 and the best adapted to the poor and illiterate, who had the gospel 
 preached to them. All tlicso tell us, with one accord, in the Holy 
 Ghost, tiiat the Lord, the night before he suffered, took bread into his 
 venerable and creating hands ; at)d lifting up his eyes to heaven, (to 
 heaven, to show us whence that power was derived, that goodness 
 emanated,) he blessed and brake, and gave it to his disciples, tn whom 
 he had made the prfiinise of his body, saying: "Take, and eat. This 
 t« my body." In like; manner, the chalice, saying: "Drink you all 
 of this. This is my blood of the New Testament." Now, these 
 words are so intelligible, and so clear, that if ever the prinriple, 
 that every one can interpret the bible for himsi-lf, Khould be admitted, 
 and enforfed, anri insisted on. it is surely hf-re ; for there is Hrarcly 
 a possibility thai words so plain, and so frequently repealed in their 
 plainness, should lead us into er:v)r. We may even safely ask, in tho 
 nypothesis that Jesus ('brist bad really wished tr) leave iis his body 
 and blood in ihf eufharist, what other words he could have unit], to 
 signify more rlearly tlw r'al prcsincf in the sacranu-nl ? Ilr has, 
 however, in his incdtnprebmHiblo wisdom and love, found HoMielhiiig 
 plainer still; for he not only said, "This is my body," but, a<i he 
 was then making a law, a will, where nothing should be left, in the 
 slightest manner, ambiguous, he added, "'I'IiIm \t* my body, which is 
 GIVEN FOR vou, this ifl my blood, which sham, hk smto roR vot>." 
 
 .18
 
 298 DEBATK 0\ THE 
 
 Was it a figurative body, that was deliverod for us 1 Was it by figtl-» 
 
 rativr blood, that wo wore rcdeemod 1 Then are we yet in our sins, 
 and Jpsus Christ has deceived ns. Tliis it were, in tlie last defrree, 
 impious to suppose; and, therefore, steadfast in the truth of what the 
 Son of God has done lor us, we may say, as Tertullian said, on a 
 different occasion, to the innovators of his time : Under what pretence 
 do you come'? and why do you remove the landmarks. The estate is 
 ours: we have tlie ancient, tlie prior possession of it: we are the 
 heirs of .lesus Christ : he made his will in our favor; and, eternal 
 praise be fjiven to him, he himself, the oritrinal proprietor, has deliv- 
 ered to ns the title deeds (layiiig our hands on the bible.) Here ia 
 the pillar, the fast anchor of our faith in the eucharist. But it is not 
 yet expedient to lay aside these texts, without conferring on them one 
 mark of attention more. In the twenty-second chapter of St. Luke, 
 . 18th, 19th, and 20th verses, we read of the institution of the eucharist, 
 as a sacrament, and as a sacrifice, in a manner more and more expli- 
 cit. "This," says the benefactor of the world, takintr leave of it, 
 " this is my body, which is given for you ;" and in the Greek text of 
 the Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, " which is broken for you:" 
 " this is the chalice, the New Testament in my blood, which shall ba 
 shed for you ;" and in the Greek text, " which is shed for you, for 
 the remission of sins : do this in commemoration of me." Here, then, 
 is every thing essential to a true sacrifice, clearly prescribed. The 
 bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, 
 and offered, and ordered to be offered to his heavenly Father, for the 
 remission of sins. Now, hear how St. Paul, whose authority, upon 
 what I have already remarked of the circumstances in which he was 
 called to the apostleship, is entitled to special respect, speaks on this 
 subject, in liis Epistle to the Corinthians: " Wherefore," says he, 
 " my dearly beloved, I speak to you as to wise men ; judge ye your- 
 selves what I say. The chalice of benediction which we bless, 
 is it not the communion of the blood of Christ ! And the bread which 
 we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? Behold 
 Israel according to the flesh: are not they who eat of the (Pagan) 
 sacrifices, partakers of the altar? But the things which the heathens 
 sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not 
 that you should be made partakers with devils. You cannot drink of 
 the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils : you cannot be par- 
 lakers of the table of the Lord, and the table of devils." Who doea 
 not see, in a text so plain, that St. Paul contrasts the table of Christ 
 with the altar of the Jews, and the table of devils, which the Gentiles 
 frequented. So that, in the same manner as the Jews partook of what was 
 offered on the altar, and the Gentiles of what was placed on the table af- 
 ter having been first sacrificed to the idols, so do the Christians par- 
 take of the table of the Lord, eating of that flesh which had been offered 
 for them, and with whose blood they had been sprinkled and purified. 
 But this argument would be weak and utterly inconclusive, if the 
 faithful, like the Jews and the Heathens, were not partakers of some- 
 thing really offered by them in sacrifice. Again, St. Paul, not only 
 here, but also in the Ep. to the Hebrews, speaks of an altar, " of an 
 altar, whereof they have no power to eat who serve the Tabernacle." 
 Now it is altogether an abuse of terms, a wilful leading of others 
 into error, to call that an altar on which sacrifice is never offered; and 
 when St. Paul said we have an altar, whereof they cannot eat, who
 
 E05r.VN CATHOLIC HELIGION. 299 
 
 remain attached to the Jewish relijrion, he meant, no doubt what was 
 then understood by every one, that there was a victim offered by 
 christians at that day, 36 years after Christ, and eaten by priest and 
 people. This is the victim of the eucharist, of which Matthew, 
 Mark, Luke and Paul speak so clearly, and so forcibly, and which 
 we must either now admit on the evidence of scripture, or Hing the 
 Bacred volume into the flames. My opponent may talk of (^hrist's 
 saying ; " I am the vine ;" " 1 am the door ;" " destroy the temple ;" 
 the ten lean kine, and the ten years of famine ; but, my friends, does 
 not the scripture explain its mt^aning, so as to leave no doubt as to the 
 sense of these, and twenty such texts besides. The dream of Pharaoh, 
 and his butler's were most minutely interpreted and perfectly ex- 
 plained. The evangelist expressly informs us, Christ spoke of the 
 temple of his body ; lest this expression should leave any doubt on 
 the mind of the reader as to the Savior's meaning. But where is the 
 parity between these passages and the words of Christ : "this is my 
 body — this is my blood." " My flesh is meat indeed — my blood is 
 drink indeed." Our Lord does not say of the vine, " tliis vine shall 
 be hung up for you," he does not say of the door, this door shall be 
 hung up for you, he does not say of the temple, or of the vine, " they 
 shall be offered for you ;" but he says all this as I shall shew, when 
 I come to speak of the institution when speaking of the divine 
 food which he gives us in the Eucharist. "This is my body nhich 
 is offered for you, this is my blood, which is shed for you" — and as 
 he was then at the last hour of his life, and speaking heart to heart 
 to his friends, it was no time for parables and figures. The traitor 
 was nigh ; the hour was at Irand, wlun Iw was to ])ass out of this 
 world to the Father. He knew how this doctrine would be contested, 
 that the vast majoritv of christians would believe in it, as tiioy do at 
 this day, according to the obvious and literal meaning of the text, and 
 yet bespeaks not one word to induce us to believf in a figurative pre- 
 sence. Why 1 Because he meant it to be understood liicr:iliy, with 
 faitli in his almighty power and his infinite love. Hccausc as (Jod, 
 he operates his greatest wonders, by the simi)lest words. " 1^1 there 
 be lif^hl ;" " Thy son liveth ," " jMztirit.i, come forth ," " / i/'i7/, be 
 thou cleansed.''' " 'J'ide up thy bed and wnl/c,'' •■' /'face .' Be still t" 
 " 7Vj/« day shalt thou be with me in Paradise ," " 7'//;.i is my body, 
 this is my blood/'' This I.utiier himself was forced to admit, lie 
 tells ns how very desirous he was, and how much he laliored to over- 
 throw this doctrine, knowiiig how miieh he could, thereliy, annoy ilus 
 pope: 'but,' nays he, ' I found myself caught, without any way of 
 escaping; for the text of the gos|)el, was too plain for me." Kpist. 
 ad Argintenses, t. 4. fol. fidii. Kd. Wiltemherg. In another place, he 
 says, condemning those who denied the corporal presence; "The 
 devil seems to hav<! nifjcked tliosi; trj whom he has Huggesled a hcrcRy 
 80 ridiculous, and contrary to scripture, as that of the Zuinglianit who 
 explained away the words of the institution in a figurative way." 
 He elsewhere coinpares these gloHses with the following (ranslation 
 of the first words of the scripture : /» fjrinrijiio Dnii rrraril arlum 
 el terram. — In the liegiiuiing the Cuckoo ate the sjirurow and his fea- 
 thers. Def. verb. I)om. ()n one occasion he calls thone who deny 
 the real and corporal presence; "a damned sect, lying liereiirs, lirrad- 
 breakers, wine-drinker4, and sonl-deslroyers." In parv. calech. 
 On other occaaiona he says, " They are endevilized, and superdevi-
 
 300 DEBATK OX THE 
 
 lized." Finally he devotes them to everlasting flames, "and builds 
 his own hopes of mercy at the tribunal of Christ, on his having with 
 all his soul condemned Carlostad, Zuinglius, and other believers in 
 the symbolical presence. Bishop Bramhall thus writes : " No genuine 
 son of the church (of England) did over deny a true, real presence. 
 Christ said — This is luy budy, — and what he said we steadfastly be- 
 lieve. He said neither Con, nor !Sub, nor Trans: therefore we place 
 those among the opinions of schools, not among articles of faith." 
 Ans. to Militiare, p. 74. Bishop Cosin is not less explicit, in favor 
 of the Catiiolic doctrine. He says, " It is a monstrous error to deny 
 that Christ is to be adored in the Eucharist. We confess the neces- 
 sity of a supernatural and heavenly change ; and that the signs can- 
 not become sacraments, but by the infinite power of (iod. If any one 
 make a bare figure of the sacrament, we ought not to suffer him in 
 our churches." Hist, de Transub. Lastly the profound Hooker ex- 
 presses himself thus ; I wisli men would give themselves more to me- 
 ditate in silence, on what we have in the sacrament, and less to dis- 
 pute of the manner how ; since we all agree that Christ, by the sacra- 
 ment, doth really and truly perform in us his promise, why do we 
 vainly trouble ourselves with so fierce contentions whether by con- 
 substantiation or else by transubstantiation V Eccles. Polit. B. v. 67. 
 
 My opponent says that when we meditate any doctrine, we eat it. 
 So, then, when we meditate on hell we eat it and all its contents ! He 
 says we eat it spiritually, but this is nonsense. I want not the sto- 
 mach or the mind, such orthodoxy requires. 
 
 My friend observes, that the doctrine of transubstantiation is con- 
 trary to the testimon}' of our senses. We have nothing but our sen- 
 ses to guide us. This is the scepticism of Thomas Tanew : " Unless 
 I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finders into 
 the place nf the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not oelieve." 
 The Savior condescended to give the requisite proof of the senses, to 
 the doubting apostle, but he replied to the confession "My Lord and 
 my God," " Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed. 
 Blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed." The 
 consequences of the doctrine of the real presence are not unworthy of 
 God. Every pretended absurdity is as justly chargeable on the In- 
 carnation as on the Eucharist. In Pope an(i McGuire's discussion, 
 one of these is to be found, where my friend got the foregoing. It is 
 that of a mouse, that is said to have once run away with the sacra- 
 ment, while the priest had his eyes shut saying his prayers. But is 
 this ridiculous story an argument? Then deny that sin could be com- 
 mitted, for sin is a greater insult than this, to Jesus Christ. Deny 
 that his sacred person was outraged with blows and spittle ; that he 
 was dragged through the streets of .Jerusalem, with the halter of ig- 
 nominy around his neck ; that he was scourged, crowned with thorns, 
 crucified ; that his blood trickled to the ground ; that his executioners 
 trampled upon it; that insects and quadrupeds partook of it! all these 
 adorable scandals are tlie consequences of the infinite love with which 
 Jesus Christ loved us. The more he is humbled for our sakes, the 
 dearer should he be to us. But if the scandal of his humiliations 
 shake our faith, let the wisdom and the power of the Godhead, dis- 
 played iu the midst of these humiliations, sustain and animate it. 
 Behold ! the earth that receives that falling blood, trembles to her 
 very centre ; the sun, unable to behold the bloody tragedy, withdraws
 
 K05IAN CATHOLIC KELIGIOX. 301 
 
 his light, and leaves the world in darkness and mourning and terror, 
 for its author's dissolution ; the rocks are rent asunder; the graves 
 give up their dead ; tlie pagan centurion strikes his breast and ex- 
 claims " Truly this man was the Son of God." Let us also believe 
 and adore ! — [Time expired.] 
 
 Three o'cUk, P. M. 
 Mr. CAJIPBELI, rises — 
 
 Knowing, my fellow-citizens, how much depends in such a discus- 
 sion, as tiiat now in progress, on liaving authentic documents, I deter- 
 mined from the beginning to rely on none wliich could, on proper evi- 
 dence, or with justice be repudiated. I knew that in all debates so far 
 back as the very era of tlie Reformation this party have been accus- 
 tomed to deny authorities, to dispute versions, transhitions, kc. even 
 of their own writers who were so candid as to give a tolerably fair re- 
 presentation of themselves. And as all their historians, good and bad, 
 frequently tell the truth, they are all occasionally to be censured, when 
 that truth is quoted by a Protestant and turned to its proper account. 
 I have not then, to my knowledge or belief, introduced ;in unworthy 
 author. And so long as my opponent can disprove nothin<r which I 
 have quoted, either from Du Pin, or Ligori, his frequent allusions to 
 them, with such unqualified censures, only shows how much be feels 
 the truth of their testimony. 
 
 The Jesuits, that standing army of the pope, are revived, and are 
 inundating our country. Other fraternities are but the militia: but 
 these are the trained band life-guards of the papacy. Their oath is full 
 proof of the spirit of the corps. My worthy opponent says, that they 
 are a very learned body of men, and that he is not imir a Jesuit. So 
 much the worse. How then can \w dclend the order froiu the doc- 
 trines of the Secreta Monila ; and afiirm that they do nc>t vnu; take the 
 oath which 1 read to you ? — He would represent me as jucking out of 
 the streets, or out of the ruins of some fallen edifice the oaths and 
 books of the Jesuits. If that were the fact, would it disprove the con- 
 tents of these documents? It would not. Truth is triilli, whercjver 
 found, in the street or in a temple — in a cellar, or in a mnunlain. Hut I 
 did not 80 seek or find them. They are public and authi'utic documents, 
 and my opponentran only deny or dispute, but he carmot disprove them. 
 
 Here is another document, not from the ashi'S of a monastery. I 
 do not know the writer of iliis arliile : but it is from an Kncycloptcdia. 
 
 BiHiioi' Pi KcKi.i,. Is it the book of Fessenden A:. Co. 1 
 
 Mr. C'ampbkli,. It is from their press. 
 
 Bishop Purcki.i.. Ah ! I know it! 
 
 Mr. Campbell reads: 
 
 " In 1801 llie »ocirty wan rfitortd in Itnnnin l>v thr niiiwror I'niil : nml in IflOl 
 by ItMiK I'lTtiiiiiind, in Surdiiiiii. In An^uit, JhM, ii hull w;!* i»«n<il 1)^ |H>|)r 
 Piui vll. futorin^ llic onlcr to all tlKir fornn r |irivilfjj< », iiml i iilliii(j n|ii>n nil 
 Catholics to nflToriltlirni prolrction nml ••iKciuriifjtnirnt. Tliii n( ( of ihrir rr- 
 vival ii Pipr«'*^r(l in nil the nolrninily of the pnpnl imllioiity; nnil rvi-n nffinnrd 
 to be nbnvi' thr ncnll or ri-vinion rifimy jntlnr. willi wIiiiIimt poMfT he niny \»' 
 clothed; but to «• very «'nliiclit<nrd nnn'f it cimnut fnd In npiwnr r«« n inrmurf hI- 
 together inrapalib' of ju^lifK iitjnn, from nny thin;; rillier ui the hutnry o( Jriuil- 
 i»m, or in the rhnmrti r of the prricnl limr«. 
 
 " The essential prinripjri of ihit inalilnlinn nnniely, that ihrir onlrr it to bo 
 
 mnintaincd nt Ihr expense of aoridv nt Inrifp, nnd ihni the end •nnrtifir* iho 
 
 mean", are utterly inrompntilije with the weltnre of nny ronimiinily of iiirn. 
 
 Their M'Btem of lax and pliant morality, justifying every vice, nod aulhoriting 
 
 2 A
 
 302 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 every atrocity has left deep and lasting ravages on the face of the moral world. 
 Their zeal to extend the jurisdiction of the court of Rome over every civil 
 govcrmuent, gave currency to triiets respecting the dut}' of opposing princei 
 wiio were hostile to the Catholic faith, which shook the basis of all political al- 
 legiance, and loosened the obligations of every human law. Their iiidetatigable 
 industry, and countless artifices in resisting the progress of the reformed reli- 
 gion, perpetuated the most pernicious errors of popery, and postponed the tri- 
 umph of tolerant and christian principles. Whence, then, it may well be asked, 
 whence the recent restoration? What long-latent proof has been discovered of 
 the excellence, or even the expedience, of such an institution? The sentence of 
 their abolition was passed by the senates and monarchs, and statesmen, and di- 
 vines, of all religions, and of almost every civilized country in the world. 
 
 Almost every land has l)ecn stained and torn liy their crimes: and almost eve- 
 ry land bears on its public record the most solemn protests against their exis- 
 tence. The evils of Jesuitism arise not from the violation of the principles of 
 the order; on the contrary, they are the natural and necessary fruits of the sys- 
 tem; they are confiiud to no age, place, or person; they follow like the tail of 
 the comet, the same disastrous course with the luminary itself; and, in conse- 
 quence, not this or that nation, but humaiiitv, is startled at the re-appearance of 
 this common enemy of man." [KncyclopcCtlia of Religious Knowledge, p. 685. 
 
 Remember, my friends, that one of the carviinal principles of Jesuit- 
 ism is, that " the end juxlifics Ihe T)ieans." This maxim justifies every 
 crime in our criminal code ! if the cause of the Roman church can be 
 thereby promoted. 
 
 The gentleman asked " Why has this order been so often restored, 
 if it be not good 1" I answer, For the same reason that the Inquisi- 
 tion has been restored, and by the same persons too. Whenever the 
 power of the papacy and the state of the community would tolerate it, 
 it has been revived ; and I presume so long as the papacy lives, it 
 will, being infallible, pursue the same course. Does the restoration 
 of the Inquisition prove it to be good? 
 
 The gentleman would trace to the hatred of Christianity, the oppo- 
 sition of Voltaire and other sceptics in France, to the order of the Je- 
 suits. This is a non causa. The infidels hated the Jesuits, not for 
 Christ's sake, for no one could hate them on that account: but because 
 they supported the political despotism of this pretended vicar of Rome. 
 This was the true reason of that mortal hatred of the Jesuits by all 
 the republicanism of France, and throughout the world. 
 
 The bishop has confessed that he would have the legislative, judi- 
 cial, and executive powers in the same hands, and quotes Deuterono- 
 my xvii. to prove that it is right, even now. What an admirer of 
 American institutions ! Certainly, he has forgotten himself: and the 
 Jewish institution too! It was a theocracy. God himself was law- 
 giver — the priests kept and expounded the law — the judges and kings 
 executed it. Where, then, were all these powers accumulated in one 
 and the same dynasty ! It is a mistake of the case, as well as of the 
 nature of the government. The very elements of a just and pure gov- 
 ernment will be found in separating these powers; the very essence 
 of a despotism in tmiting them in one and the same person. 
 
 The gentleman, I am glad to observe, understands my discovery of 
 the elements of all tyranny in the supreme judge of controversy, or, 
 councils of the Roman church. But he fails in vindicating it. The 
 council is "the church representative ;^^ consequently, it is the church 
 judging for herself against the heretics or reformers. She is always 
 a party in the case of which she is judge. Most controversies are on 
 points affecting the priesthood. All disputes, more or less affect the 
 Standing or temporal interest of the clergy. Now the councils are
 
 KOMAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 303 
 
 composed only of clergy. Is it not then the clergy judgrinj in their 
 own case ? And such is the model of a Roman CaiholiL- Republic ! 
 
 A word or two more on transubslantiation. Will the bishop please 
 inform us whether the bread and wine are transubntatiliated into the 
 natural bodt/ of Christ, or into his glorified body? If into the natural 
 body, in which he said " thin is my body,'''' " this is my blood ,-^^ of what 
 profit to eat it? and how dare christians to eat it, according to the de- 
 crees of the apostles] and if it be his glorified body, how can there be 
 flesh and blood in it 1 for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom 
 of heaven ! 
 
 The allusions of my opponent to the Episcopalians and Unitarians, 
 in vindication of his gross interpretviiions of the eucharistal words, is 
 unworthy of a serious reply. Besiiles, their opinions are not the sub- 
 ject of controversy here. It is transubstantialion, and not consubstan- 
 tiation, or any other theory of the presence of the Lord in this ordi- 
 nance, which I assert, and which he is bound to defend, if he can. 
 The Episcopalians would abhor llip comments and interpretations 
 which the bishop dares append to their words. He treats them as he 
 treated Luther ! ' 
 
 One of the most unfortunate references I recollect to have heard in 
 debate, was that of the bishop to the unbelief of Thomas. The Sa- 
 vior's answer to Thomas fully exprr'sscs his; sophistry on transubslan- 
 tiation : for Jesus said, " reach hither thy finger," — " handle me" — 
 " thrust thy hand into my side." So we reason : " Take this loaf into 
 your hands, feel it, taste it, smell it, — Is it flesh, or is it bread ? Test 
 it by your senses. Believe not, contrary to your senses. Jesus made 
 his appeal to the senses. So fin we. Why has my opponent quoted 
 this passage 1 Is he turning Protestant ? 
 
 I wish the Roman Catholics would hear Paul in this case. He has 
 positively said, that it is bread that is eaten in the act of celebrating 
 the supper. " Ah often," says he, " as you eat this firrnd, and drink 
 this CI/73, you do show forth the Lord's death till he come." 'Vo "drink 
 a cup" is certainly a figure as much as " ihis is my body;" and goes 
 to show that words are not to be taken literally in this passage. If 
 then, Jesus called it the fruit if the vine, after consecration, and Paul, 
 the bread and the cup, in the very act of conmiiinicating, I ask. What 
 foundation is there for the miracle of the mass] ! 
 
 My learned opponent tells you a story about a mouse. It may, in- 
 deed, have a good argument in it; but I do not use such argunienls, 
 on so grave a subject. He did it, he said, to anticipate mi-. He did 
 not however anticipate me: for I had no intention of telling such a 
 story, or any other of the same lyp''. I think it would be more appo- 
 site for him to show how a person ran believe against his fivt! senses, 
 that a priest can, by a few words create the body, soul and divinity of 
 the Son of God out of a little "■ pastr ,^^ than to relate such iiiouho 
 stories, how true soever they may be. Surely, liefore thi-y kneel 
 down and adore a wafer, ihey ought to be fully assured that llio priest 
 has converted it into a divinity ! 
 
 I must return to my last proposition. This eoncerns him and Win 
 party more, than any other one of the seven. We will so<in be able 
 to jndiie, whether he is determined to evade or canvass it. I would 
 emphatically tell him, the nommiinity expert him to disruMq ihiw unb- 
 ject above all others. They are much excited and inU-resUMl or this
 
 304 DEBATE OS THE 
 
 point. Many who have no antipathy against Roman Catholics have 
 some fears of them. I belonir to that class. I have no antipathy : but 
 I have my fears. I do honestly think, (and I avow it here, that I may 
 give my ingenious opponent an opportunity to remove the impression 
 if he can.) I say, 1 do sincerely believe and think, that Roman Cath- 
 olicism, in any country is detrimental to its interests and prosperity: 
 and in a republic, directly and positively tending every moment to its 
 subversion. Such is my conviction. I avow it, that if possible, it 
 may be removed. I always distinguish between a system and those 
 who profess it, — between a creed, and the people. And therefore I 
 war against principles and not rtien. I am not singular in these senti- 
 ments. They are possessed by a largo portion of the most intelligent 
 of this community. I have, indeed, been asked, perhaps, a hundred 
 times, since October last, in different places, and by different persons, 
 of all religious parties and by persons of no sect: "Are you not afraid 
 to meet the Catholics in debate"?" — Afraid of what? — " Of your life 
 — of being killed," was the reply. " Are you not afraid that they will 
 lay violent hands on you ]" No ; was my answer. I met the infidel 
 Owen and feared nothing; and certainly I have no more to fear from 
 "the Mother and Mistress of all christians" than from infidels ! 
 
 It gives me pleasure to say, that there are some Roman Catholics, 
 to whom I could trust my life and my all as confidently, as to any 
 Protestant. To such men, as Fenelon, as Paschal, as Rollin, as Du 
 Pin, as St. Pierre, as Thomas a Kempis, I could commit my life, as 
 freely and as cheerfully as to any Protestants. In such cases the man 
 rises above the system. I state this fact to interest my gpponent in 
 discussing my seventh proposition; and to assure him that it will give 
 me pleasure, and I have no doubt the whole community, to learn that 
 all such fears are perfectly groundless; and to see that he is able sa- 
 tisfactorily to remove them. Let the public mind be disabused: for 
 as present advised, Protestants generally think that civil liberty and 
 the papacy are wholly incompatible with each other: and that the in- 
 troduction of large numbers of Roman Catholics into this community, 
 would inevitably subvert this government ; and place us under a spi- 
 ritual and political despotism, intolerant and cruel as those, which the 
 see of Rome has established in every country on earth, where she has 
 obtained a majority. 
 
 Let the gentleman, then, turn his attention to this subject, and im- 
 prove the opportunity in wiping from his escutcheons those foul stains 
 that have associated with the name Roman Catholic every thing that 
 is intolerant, inhuman and tyrannical. Let him show us here in what 
 manner the decrees of councils, the bulls of popes, the oaths of the 
 clergy, and the infallibility of the church are to be disposed of, if we 
 could promise ourselves that the prevalence of his party in this coun- 
 try would not be an end of all those free and equitable institutions, 
 which have made these United States the wonder and the admiration 
 of the world. 
 
 Is it of the essence of this superstition to root out and destroy every 
 antagonist principle, tenet, and party ; or is itmerely accidental, that 
 Rome can endure no living rival ] Has not the Roman see even when 
 a foreign empire always sought to he above all gods or magistrates : 
 and does it not now bind every bishop on earth under the most heart 
 searching and conscience binding oaths and anathemas, to defend and
 
 ROMAN CATHOI/IC RELIGIOX. 305 
 
 keep the Roman papacy, and the royalties of St. Peter, saving his own 
 order against all men 1 Is not my opponent thus sworn 1 Has he 
 not bound himself as he shall answer to God in the great day, by the 
 most solemn imprecations to preserve, defend, increase and advance the 
 authority of his lord the pope, and his successors canonically coming 
 in 1 — He has so sworn — ^just as certainly, as he has sworn " to persecute 
 and oppose all heretics and schismatics," as we read from an oath 
 which he has not yet had the courage to deny. It is, indeed, a part 
 of the same oath. 
 
 It will require the ingenuity of a Jesuit to show how these duties to 
 the pope can consist with the obligations of the oath of naturalization, 
 or the duties which a citizen of this country owes to its government. 
 But before I comment further on the oath, we will hear it to the end : 
 
 "I ivill come to a couhciI when 1 am called, unless I be hindered by a cano- 
 nical impediment. I will by mysell' in person visit the threshold of the apostles 
 every three years: and give an account to our Lord and his aloresaid successors 
 of all my pastoral oflice, and of all things any wise belonging to the state of my 
 church, to the discipline of my clergy and people, and lastly to the salvation of 
 souls coniniittcd to nu' trust; and will diligently execute the apostolic connnands. 
 And if 1 be detained by a lawful impediment, I will perform all things aforesaid 
 by a certain messenger hereto specially empowered, a member of n)y chapter, 
 or some other ecclesiastical dignity, or else having a parsonage; or in default 
 of these, by a priest of the diocese; or in default of one of the clergy, [of the 
 diocese] by some other secular or regular priest of approved integrity and re- 
 ligion, fully instructed in all things above mentioned. And such impediment 
 I will make out by lawful proofs to be transmitted by the aforesaid messenger to 
 the cardinal proponent of the holy Roman church in the congregation of the 
 sacred council. The possessions belonging to my table, I will neither sell, nor 
 give away, nor mortgage, nor grant anew in fee, nor any wise alienate, no, not 
 even witFi the consent of the cliapter of my chunh, without consulting the Ro- 
 man PonlilT And if 1 shall make any ;dienation, I will thereljy incur the penal- 
 ties contained in a certain constitution put forth iibotit this matter. So help me 
 God and these holy Gospels of God." I'ontif. Rom. Antwerp. Anno 1626 — 
 pp. 59, 86. [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 3 o'clock, P. M. 
 Bishop Purcki.i. rises — 
 
 Mr. Campbell begs me to follow iiim. 1 am following him; but 
 the truth is that my learned friend runs away so fast from bis own 
 reason, that it is not surprising if lie fr<ts abfacl f)f mine. My friends, 
 I promise to satisfy you on the vital (jnislion of civil liixrly. Ho 
 will not i)C able to draw mc oil' from my argument. He is a foreign- 
 er, an Irishman, as well as I, and I am sorry to see, that while ho 
 breathes, be would infect, the almospbero of freedom. We are both 
 indebted to Americii for the liiierty wiiieli we enjoy, which he as a dis- 
 senter, and I, as a (Jalholic, would not iiave enjuyed umler the /Vo- 
 testanl Goi-rrnmrnt of (ireat Hrilain, in our native laml. For myself, 
 I am an adopted American citizen, having renounced, by oatb, all for- 
 eign allegiance. It is my only desire to live and act as an American 
 freeman sboiibl, and esraiie the c.iarge which rests on foreiirnerK like 
 my worthy o|)|>rm(iit, and those .Scfitch fanaticH in New ^'(l^k, who 
 volunteer to teaeb Annrieans how to uiidirHlan<l their own eoiiRti- 
 tution. These, and their like, are the men who cause all the rxrilo- 
 ■lent about religion. 'J'bey, and not ihr; Catholics, are the real mid- 
 chief makers. This, I say, more in sorrow than in anger, and exclu- 
 sively with the \'\vw of doing justice to the truth. Let uh appreciate 
 the blessings we here enjoy, and not withhold, or mar thi-ni. We 
 have not here imbibed the spirit of controvr rsy, which may be called 
 2 A 2 3'J
 
 3UG DKBATE ON THR 
 
 the spirit of the world, but tho spirit of chnrity, which is the spirit 
 of God. 'I'he former is prcdicatcil fir anothor iiioridian. 
 
 I will now finish my arcrmiKnils on the real presence. St. Paul, 
 speaking of the dispositions with which the Kucharist was to be re- 
 ceived, seals the proof deduced from the words of tho institution and 
 the promise. His words are these : " When you come therefore to- 
 gether into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord's supper." The 
 apostle condemns their parlakinrr of liiis, as of ordinary food. " What," 
 says he, " have you not houses to eat and to drink in 1 or despise ye 
 the church of God; and put them to shame that have not] What 
 shall I say to you ? Do 1 praise you ? In this I praise you not. For 
 I have received of the Lord, thv.t which also, I delivered unto yon, 
 that the Lord .Tesus, the same nitrht in which he was betrayed, took 
 bread. And giving- thanks, broke, and said : 'Take ye an4 eat; this 
 is my body which shall be delivered for )'ou; this do for a commemo- 
 ration of me.' In like manner, also, the chalice, after he had supped, 
 saying: ' This chalice is the New Testament in my blood ; this do 
 ye as often as you shall drink it, for the commemoration of me.' For 
 as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall 
 shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever 
 shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall 
 be guilty of the body, and blood of the Lord. But let a man prove 
 hims(!lf, and so let him eat of that bread, arid drink of that chalice. 
 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, cateth and drinkelh judg- 
 ment unto himself, not discerning the body of the Lord." 1st. Ep. 
 Cor. ch. xi. Here the most virtuous and pious dispositions under 
 the dread penalty, of receiving the body and blood of the Lord un- 
 worthily, and thus incorporating, and making our ccmdemnation a 
 portion of our flesh and blood and being, are required of the Catholic 
 communicant, and yet my worthy opponent quotes this sanctifying 
 doctrine among the immoralities of the Catholic church ! 
 
 But my friend objects to transubstantiation. Then let him differ 
 from Luther and the Episcopalians, for the real presence, without 
 transubstantiation, which they teach, is a greater difficulty. If the 
 bible be our guide, let us adhere to .it. What was the first miracle 
 which our Savior wrought] Was it not the changing of water into 
 wine '.' transubstantiation ] My friend says that he has never read on 
 this subject, nor studied it. I do not wonder that he says it is so ab- 
 surd, if he never gave it serious consideration. (Mr. Campbell here ex- 
 plained that he had said that he had never read a controversial treatise 
 on the subject, but affirmed that he had reflected on it, and studied it) 
 Not only the first miracle, but every tWng in nature confirms the doc- 
 trine. The bread and meat that my friend ate, a week ago, is, this 
 day, flesh and blood and bone of his body. So of trees, — the juices 
 they draw from the soil, are converted into branches and verdure. Na- 
 ture, in fact, is re|)lete with evidences illustrative of the possibility 
 of transubstantiation. If you wish for a human testimony, interro- 
 gate christian antiquity. St. Ignatius, the disciple of the apostles, 
 in his Epistle to the church of Smyrna, speaking of heretics, says, 
 " They do not admit of I'^ucharists and oblations, because they do 
 not believe the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior, Jesus Christ, 
 who suffered for our sins." 
 
 Origen says ; " Manna was formerly given, as a figure ; but now
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 307 
 
 the flesh and blood of the Son of God are specifically given, and are 
 real food." 
 
 St. Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem, says: 
 
 " Since Christ hiciiself affirms thus of the bread, This is my body; who is so 
 daring as to doubt of it? and since he aflfirnis, this is my blooJ; who will deny 
 that it is his blood? At Canain Galilee, he, by an act of his will, turned water into 
 wine, which resembles blood, and is he then not to be credited when he changes 
 wine into blood? Therefore, full of certainty, let us receive the body and blood 
 of Christ; for under the form of bread, is given to thee his body, and under 
 the form of wine, his blood." 
 
 St. Ambrose thus argues with his spiritual children : 
 
 "You will say, why do you till nie that I receive the body of Christ, 
 when I see quite another thing? We have tliis point therefore to prove. How 
 many examples do we produce to show von, that this is not what nature made it; 
 but what the benediction has consecrated it; and that the benediction is of greater 
 force than nature, because by the benediction, nature itsi If is changed ! Mos. 8 C8«t 
 bis rod upon the ground, anil it be~ame a serpent; he caught hold of the serpent's 
 tail, and it recovered the nature of a rod. The rivers of Kgypt,&c. Thou hast 
 read of the creation of the world: If Christ, by his word, w-as able to make ^onle- 
 thing out of nothing, shall he not be thought able to change one thing into another." 
 
 My friend spoke of the period at which this doctrine was introduced, 
 and quoted Scotus. I venture my life, that he does not know who 
 Scotus was, or when he lived. I ask my friend to tell me, who is this 
 Scotus, to whom he referred. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. — 1 presume he was a father of the church. 
 
 Bishop Pcrcell. — I do not speak disrespectfully of my friend, but 
 I do not like this index learning : 
 
 " Which turns no student pole, 
 Yet holrls the eel of science by the tail." 
 There were two individuals whom he has confounded. The first, 
 called Scotus Kvigena, lived in the ninth century, and wrote a treatise 
 against the real presence, which was condemned in many councils. 
 The second flourished in the fourteenth century, and taught theology 
 in Oxford and Paris. Or, instead of either of the foretroiiiff. does the 
 gentleman quote Soto, the theologian, sent by Charles V. of CJermany, 
 to the council of Trent 1 Of which of them does the gentleman 
 speak 1 1 pause for a reply. (Pauses.) 
 
 Mr. Campbell. — You may proceed. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. — I will proceed to settle this point. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. That is not the question before us. 
 
 Bi.SHop I'iRCELL. Well, then, my friends, I will take \ip the sub- 
 ject of indulgences, against which my friend had directed his batteries. 
 An indulgence is no license to commit sin. The Catholic church ana- 
 thematizes the doctrine that any man, or set of men, can irriuit a licenso 
 to commit sin. She tj-aches that an indulgence is nothing more nor 
 less than a remission of the tem|)oral punishment, whirh often remains 
 attached to sin, afu-r the eternal guilt has been forgiven to the sinner, 
 on his sincere repentance. Before proving this doctrine both «criplurnl 
 and rational, and that the church is guilty of I'licouraging no inimorn- 
 lity by the power \vlii( h she exercises in the grantinu of indulgenceK, I 
 must shew that tlie ehiirge of iiumorality presses heiivily on my oppo- 
 nent's doctrine, and not on mine, for he teiiches that the disiinclion be- 
 tween greater and lesser sins is not found in Hcriplure. lie ban advo- 
 cated the monstrous, and insupportabbf dortrine, that ihn child who 
 tells an untruth, to save itself from punishment, in as guilty an the 
 parricide who cuts his father's throat! and accuses Catholics of being
 
 308 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 immoral, because they do not subscribe to such a doctrine as this ! 
 What is the efilct of tliis doctrine, that all sins are equal 1 Why, it 
 is this : that the man who h;is committed the slicrhtcst sin, is as guilty 
 in the sight of God, and as (U'servliig of hciiig diinincd, as if his sins 
 were ever so enormous. " If this be my lot," is his spontaneous rea- 
 soning, "I see no cause why my passions should not have all the ad- 
 vantage of this doctrine. 1 will, therefore, continue to sin. No na- 
 tural law, no divine legislation, no civil convention, or moral restraint, 
 shall debar me of my pleasures." This is revolting; it is horrible. 
 Scripture, reason, and Catholicism, anathematize it. I now resume 
 the proof of my position, touching indulgences, and maintain that after 
 the eternal guilt is remitted, a temporal pain is often inflicted for the 
 satisfaction of divine justice. Thus, when Adam and Eve had sinned 
 in paradise, when they had incurred the Divine displeasure, and heard 
 the dread sentence pronounced against them and their posterity, even 
 in his wrath the Almighty remembered mercy. They were driven 
 from Eden, but not into hell. In other words, the eternal guilt of their 
 sin was forgiven, but the temporal punishment still remained to be 
 endured. (There is some doubt whether Eve partakes of her consort's 
 happiness in heaven, or not; but Adam, we are assured by scripture, 
 is m heaven.) " In the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat thy bread," 
 said the Lord, "the earth shall be accursed in thy toil, briars and 
 thorns," &c. We are bearing a part of their punishment. We feel 
 the effects of this primeval prevarication. The whole earth is a hospi- 
 tal. Poverty, crime, disease, war, pestilence, and Aimine ; physical, 
 moral, and mental afflictions, and evils; all the quarreling; all the 
 differences of opinion; this very controversy; all this is a part of 
 the temporal punishment of our first parents' transgression. This 
 shews the difference between the temporal and eternal punishment of 
 sin. Behold another illustration. David takes Uriah's wife— he orders 
 Uriah into the front of the battle that he might be killed. The Al- 
 mighty, incensed at his double crime, sends his prophet to rebuke him, 
 and David trembles before his wrath. God is moved, and p^irdons 
 him. He remits the eternal guilt of his sin, but notits temporal punish- 
 ment. "The child that is born for thee shall die." We know all the 
 evils that followed ; Absalom, &c. The doctrine of indulgences is this : 
 
 WHEN A HUMAN BEING DOES EVERY THING IN HIS POWER TO ATONE FOR 
 
 SIN, God has left a power in the church, to remit a part or the entire of 
 the temporal punishment due to it. It is always understood, that no 
 matter what the church does, the indulgence is of no effect, if the re- 
 pentance be not sincere. I will give you a striking example from 
 scripture. It is the case where St. Paul absolved the''incestuous man 
 of Corinth, 2d Cor. ii. 6, 8, who had been guilty, even in the early awe 
 of the church, of a crime which struck the hearts of all the church 
 with dismay. St. Paul wrote to Corinth and said, when he heard that 
 the man was overwhelmed with contrition, and shunned by all the 
 people, "To him that is such a one this rebuke is sufficient, that is 
 given by many. And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. 
 For what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes 
 have I done it in the person of Christ." One text is worth twenty 
 arguments. The obedience rendered to St. Paul on this occasion, by 
 the church of Corinth, rny friend denounces. But the early christians 
 were more humble, and Paul was guilty of no assumption in demand-
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 309 
 
 ing it. "In the person of Christ," — mark those words — that he, in 
 the person of Chrisl, forgave — wliat ? — not the eternal guilt of the in- 
 cestuous man — God alone could forgive that ; but the temporal punish- 
 ment ; to restore him to the privileges of the church and of cliristian 
 society. Nothing is more frequent in the ecclesiastical history of the 
 early ages, than the narrative of the acts of the naartyrs ; and tliis, 
 among others, of their being visited in prison, or met in their way to 
 execution, by persons condemned to perform public penances, accord- 
 ing to the discipline of the church in those days, and supplicated for a 
 ticket, or other intimation of intercession in their behalf, with the pas- 
 tors of the church, that the term of these penances might be abridged, 
 in consideration of the martyr's generous sacrifices. One drop of 
 Christ's precious blood was sufficient to ransom a thousand worlds. 
 He left this treasure and its keys to the church, saying, "Whatever 
 you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed in heaven," &c. But I will 
 give you other examples to illustrate the doctrine of indulgences. The 
 English church grants indulgences. Luther granted them, of an extra- 
 ordinary kind too. Our government grants indulgences. An insolvent 
 debtor hangs his head with shame; there is nothing he would not do 
 to pay his debts. The law takes him to jail — he gives a schedule of 
 his property, and upon surrendering all he possesses in the world, up6n 
 oath, he is allowed to take the benefit of the act. This is what the 
 church does to sinners, who sincerely repent and do all they can, first, 
 to pay the spiritual debts that stand against them. Shew me that there 
 is anything wrong in the insolvent laws, and then you may find fault 
 with the practice of the church. As for the pope, or bishop, giving a 
 license to sin, I will repeat as often as it is repeated, that the Catholic 
 church reprobates it. If all the bishops in the world, and the pope 
 were to sign such a license, the sinner would not be forgiven, if he re- 
 mained in sin. God l^imself does not pardon sin upon these terms. 
 But I cannot consent that the gentleman should force down our throats 
 doctrines that we abominate. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Four o'clock, P. M. 
 Mr. Campbell risen— 
 
 Really, my friends, it would seem as if I ought to go hack some 
 two or three days to help my opponent forward to th(! subject now 
 before us. But I will not. There is no person in this house, with 
 the exception of my ingenious opponent, who believes that I repre- 
 sent all sins as equal as resprT.ts man. Though as respects the di- 
 vine law, as alr«'ady observed, they are e<|iial!y transgressions of it. 
 Hence, as James the apostle avers : " He that ofieiids in one point,'''' 
 though he should keep every other, "is f^uilly of air! The gentle- 
 man, then, may defend his " white lies," and cither violations of God's 
 law, as lie pJeiiHcs; but God will show tiie universe that, as respects 
 his character, as Lawgiver and King, the least infrartion, as respects 
 man, is the highest insult that can be rendered to the I/iwgiver. 
 Eve's " little sin," as the infidels call it, is the best i-xposilion of the 
 logic of Roman theology. Thougii it differs much in the estimation 
 of man from the treachery of Judas: yet, does not every ])age and 
 letter in man's sad history, bear witness, that even the |>ulliiig ofl" an 
 apple against the law of (iofi, is an offence that justifies the (Gover- 
 nor of the Universe for having suflcred the whole creation on our
 
 310 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 planet to groan and travail together in pain and death for thousands of 
 years. 
 
 To the unpropilious destiny of my opponent I attribute all his re- 
 marks on my saying ihat 1 read no tracts in confutation of transub- 
 slaniiation. Does that prove that I cannot refute — or that I have not 
 refuted his defence of it. The bible alone qualifies me to expose all 
 his sophistry, or tliat of any man, on that grossest and most un- 
 feasible of all the impostures that have, in any age or nation, been 
 obtruded on mankind. 
 
 The gentleman has spoken of various natural transubstantiations ! 
 Astonishing ! Who ever thought any thing else, but that all organi- 
 zed bodies, all earthly substances, nay, indeed, that all matter was 
 susceptible of real changes, and new combinations and transubstanti- 
 ations ■? But where is the analogy ] They are real and apparent, 
 visible and sensible transubstantiations. But the universe affords 
 no transubstantialion, similar to that for which the Bishop contends — 
 Nothing transubstantiated, and yet the same to all our sense and 
 reason. 
 
 But in the name of reason itself, what distress or pressure of mis- 
 fortune has induced this learned gentleman to appeal to the miracle 
 in Cana of Galilee — to the transubstantiation of water into wine 1 That 
 was really a transubstantiation. It did not look like water — taste 
 like water, smell like water, nor operate like water. It was real wine, 
 in color, taste, smell, and all its sensible properties. What a refuta- 
 tion has the gentleman found in his own illustration ! ! 
 
 The Bishop's remarks upon " eating the word,'''' &c. &c., are equal- 
 ly unhappy, and extravagant. He has not done himself any honor on 
 this occasion. Jesus said, " it is my meat and my drink to do the 
 will of him that sent me." Truth is an aliment of the soul, and do- 
 ing the will of heaven is a feast to every christian. But can the soul 
 feast on literal flesh and blood ] ! 'Tis an outrage on common sense ! 
 
 I was glad to hear him even quote the words, " Judge you what I 
 say :" any appeal to reason, any word favorable to examination, com- 
 ing from that quarter, falls on my ear like the sound of the dulci- 
 mer. Jesus says, " Why do you not of yourselves judge what is 
 right;" and Paul says, " Judge what I say ;" and John commands, 
 " Believe not every spirit ; but try the spirits, for many false prophets 
 are gone forth into the world." Now all these commands are address- 
 ed to the common mass of christians. Well, then, says Paul, " The 
 loaf for which we give thanks, is it not the communion of the body ol 
 Christ," &c. ; " and the cup which we bless, is it not the communion 
 of the blood ?" &c. : and the whole is called the Lord's table, the 
 Lord's supper — an institution in remembrance of one that is absent, 
 " Tii>L HE COME :" — uot the eating of one present, but the memorial 
 of one absent. " You then," says Paul, " do show forth the Lord's 
 death till he come.'''' 
 
 The Corinthian abuses show, that they had no notion of a wafer 
 and no wine — of a mass, a transubstantiation. Paul reproved them 
 for their irregularities, and said this was not to eat the Lord's supper, 
 (not to partake of a mass) : for some had eaten and even drunk to excess. 
 The rich had brought a large supper, and put the poor to shame, who 
 had no supper to bring. These were abuses which could never have 
 arisen out of the doctrine of transubstantiation. In one word, there 
 was as much transubstantiation in the passover, because it is called the
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 311 
 
 " Lord's passover," as there is in the institution of the supper, be- 
 cause it is called the " Lord's body :" and he that cannot thus " dis- 
 cern the Lord's body," in this institution, is not to be reasoned with 
 on any religious question. 
 
 Next comes the gentleman's splendid episode on the identification 
 of the unfortunate Scotus, whose peculiar age and country I am no 
 more bound to remember, or to tell here, than I am to relate the per- 
 sonal or family history of every individual I quote. How many au- 
 thors are daily quoted, whose age and country, not one in a hundred, 
 may be able to relate with historic accuracy ! Are those who cite Co- 
 pernicus, Zoroaster, Euclid, or even Nowton, obliged to tell when or 
 where they were born, lived and died T It is, however, on the au- 
 thority of Bellarmine I quoted this celebrated Roman Catholic au- 
 thor, and ought 1 not, on such an endorsement, to regard Scotus as of 
 hiorh authority in the Roman church 1 
 
 rime is becoming very precious, and as I have only two speeches 
 after to-day, I shall not go farther into the details of the proposition, 
 now under discussion, especially as I have not been met by the Bish- 
 op on the two grand errors which nourish and sustain the baseless 
 dream of purgatory and the sacraments of penance, auricular confes- 
 sion, the mass, &c. &c. 
 
 Indulgence is not identical with absolution, as my opponent seems 
 to argue. Indulgence, as the term imports, is a licence to sin : abso- 
 lution is the forgiveness of sin. An indulgence gives licence to sin, 
 because it promises the person prospectively an exemption from the 
 punishment ; and even to remain, in full force, in the moment of 
 death ! 
 
 My seventh proposition says : 
 
 "Tlic Roman Cath )lic religioii, if infjllible and insusceptible of lefornntion, 
 as allejjerl, is essentially anti-Anierican, being opposed to the genins of all free 
 institutions, and pDsitivdy subversive of thein, opposing the general reading of 
 the scripturis, and the dillu-ion of useful knowledge among the whole commu- 
 nity, so essential to librrty and the permanency of good government." 
 
 "Essentially anti-American." — This I have so far proved, as refer- 
 ence has already been made to those doctrines, which make the Roman 
 Catholic population abject slaves to their priests, bishops, and popes — 
 to that hierarchy, which has always opposed freedom of thought, of 
 speech, and of action, whether iu literature, politics, or religion. Such 
 are the laws of mind — such the inlelleclual and moral constitution of 
 man, that if in religion the mind hit enslaved to any superstition, espe- 
 cially in youth, it rarely or ever can be emancipated and invigorated. 
 The benumbing and paralizing influence of Itmnanism is such, as to 
 disqualify a person for the relish and enjoyment of political liberty. 
 For in all history, civil liberty follows in the wake of religious liberty ; 
 insomuch, that it is almost an oracle of |)hilosophy, that religious liberty 
 is the cause, and political liberty an effect of that cause, without 
 which it never has been found. Compare not I'rotestant America with 
 the republics of (ireecn or Rome; for there is scarcely any jmint of 
 coincidence in this respect. There never was on earth so free and so 
 equitable an institution as the Protestant insiitiitions of these United 
 States. 
 
 We shall now exemplify lh<! spirit and tendency of Homanism, taken 
 from the five himdred years in which it was most lrium|)hanl. 
 
 As a specimen of that abject slavery of Romanists to their superiors,
 
 312 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and of the humility of the popes, of which my friend has so often 
 spoken, take the foilowinpr example. 
 
 " Acconling to tliis doctrine then current at Rome, in the last Lateran great 
 synod, under the Pope's nose, ani\ in his ear, one bishop styled him Prince of 
 the world; another orator called him Kint^ of kiu^s, and Monarch of the earth; 
 another great prelate said of liim, that he had all power above all potoers, 
 both of heaven and earth. And the same roused up Pope Leo X. in these brave 
 terms: " Snatch up therefore the two-edged sword of divine power, committed to 
 thee; and enjoin, command, and charge, that an universal peace and alliance be 
 made among christians for at least ten years; and to that bind kings in fetters 
 of the great king, and constrain nobles by the iron manacles of censures: for 
 to thee is given all power in heaven and in earth." 
 
 "This is the doctrine which liarronius, with a Roman confidence, doth so often 
 assert and drive forward, saying, "that there can be no doubt of it, but that the 
 civil principality is subject to the sacerdotal: and that God hath made the poli- 
 tical government subject to the dominion of the spiritual church." Epis. Patrac. 
 Sess. 10, p. 133. Barronius, Annal>, 57. 23. 
 
 It is Barronius, and not l)u Pin, says, " that God has made the poll- 
 iical government subject to the spiritual.'''' This is the true doctrine of 
 popery. But we shall hear another great cardinal. 
 
 Again Btllarmine says; " Ry reason of the spiritual power, tlie pope, at least, 
 indirectly, hath a supreme power even in tenipoial matters." 
 
 Concerning which. Dr. Barrow rightly ohserves, "If the pope may 
 strike princes, it matters not much whether it be by a downright blow 
 or slantingly." 
 
 We shall now very hastily run back from A. D. 1585 to 730, and 
 give a few specimens of the true spirit, and tone, and action, of this 
 institution, during its ascendency. 
 
 A. D. 1585. "The bull of Pope Sixtus V. against the two sons of wrath, 
 Henry, King of Navarre, and the Prince of Conde, beginneth thus: 'The au- 
 thority given to St. Peter and his successors, by the immense power of the eter- 
 nal king, excels all the powers of earthly kings and princes. — It passes uncon- 
 trollable sentence upon them all — and if it find any of them resistmg God's or- 
 dinance, it takes more severe vengeance of them, casting them down from their 
 thrones, though never so puissant, and tumbling them down to the lowest parts 
 of the earth, as the ministers of aspiring Lucifer.' And then he proceeds to 
 thunder against them, ' We deprive them and their posterity forever of their 
 dominions, and -kingdoms;' and accordingly he depriveth those princes of their 
 kingdoms and dominions, absolveth their subjects from their oaths of allegiance, 
 and forbiddeth them to pay any obedience to them. 'By the authority of these 
 presents, we do absolve and set free all persons, as well jointly as severally, 
 from any such oath, and from all duty whatsoever in regard of dominion, fealty 
 and obedience, and do charge and forbid all and every of them that they do not 
 dare to obey them, or any of their admonitions, laws, and commands." Bulla 
 Sixti V. Contra Henr. Navarre, R. &c. 
 
 Is this the genius of our government ? Are these the doctrines of 
 the United States ] Here you have kings hurled from their thrones, 
 and subjects released from their allegiance, without ceremony, by the 
 vicars of Christ and the head of the church ! Who is this that sets 
 aside oaths, and religious obligations, in the name of the Lord 1 
 " Why," says the modern Roman Catholic, " do you bring up these 
 old things V Not so very old ! But will the bishop mention the 
 council that ever repudiated this doctrine? 
 
 The bishop says, ' they have been repudiated.' I thank him for 
 conceding that they once existed ! But now for the proof of their re- 
 pudiation. Nothing is infallible but a general council ; and what gene- 
 ral council has set since the days of pope Sixtus V. 1 ! ! The council 
 of Trent convened Dec. 13, 1515, and all its decrees were confirmed 
 by the pope Jan. 26, 1564 ; consequently, the bull of pope Sixtus V.
 
 EO:HAX CATHOLIC RELIGION. 313 
 
 i% the bull of the Reformed Infallible Roman church after the council 
 of Trent ! ! If it were orthodox then, it is orthodox now. 
 
 We shall now hear pcpc Pius V. (almost canonized,) excommuni- 
 cate the queen of England, and for aught I know, we Protestants were 
 all excommunicated at the same time. 
 
 A. D. 1570. *' He that n ig-iieth on hig:h, to whom is given all power in heaven 
 and in earth, hath committed the one holv, Catholic and Apostolic church, out 
 of wliich there is no salvation, to one aline on earth, namely, to Peter, prince 
 ol the apostles; and to the Roman pontirt', successor of Peter, to be governed 
 with a plenitude of power; this one he hath constituted prince ovei all nations, 
 and ail l<ingdoni?, that he mifht pluck up, destrov, dissipate, ruinate, plant, 
 and build." — And in the same bull he declares, that ' he thereby deprives the 
 queen of her pretended right to the kingdom, and of all dominion, dignity, and 
 urivdege whatsoever; and absolves all the nobles, subjects, and people of the 
 kingdom, and whoever else have sworn to her, from their oath and nil duty 
 whatsoever, in regard of dominion, fidelity and obedience." [Camp. Hist, 
 anno. 1570. 
 
 That this was not peculiar to one individual, but of the spirit of the 
 system, appears from the following facts: 
 
 Pope Clement V[. did pretend to depose the Emperor Lewis IV. 
 
 Pope Clement V. in the great synod of Vienna, declared the emperor subject 
 to him, or standing obliged to him by a proper oath of feaUy. TClem. lib. 
 ii. tit. 9. ^ r I J . 
 
 Pope Boniface VIII. hath a decree extant in the canon law running thu» : 
 • We declare, say, define, pronounce it to be of necessity to salvation, for everj 
 human creature to be su!)ject to the Roman pontiff." 
 
 A. D. 1294. "For one sword, saith he, must be under another, and the tem- 
 poral authority nmst be subject to the spiritual power: — whence, if the earthlj 
 power doth go astray, it must be judged by the spiritual jjower." Ibid. 
 
 This definition snys Dr. Barrow, at the foot of whose pages we have the Latin 
 original of all these dccrcfs, might pass for rant of that boisterous pope (a man 
 above measure, ambitious and arrogant) vented in his passion against king Philip 
 of F" ranee, if it had not the advantage (of a greater than which no papaldecree 
 is capable) of being expressly confirmed by one of their general councils; for, 
 ' We (saith Pope Leo X. in his Lull read and passed in the Lateron council) do 
 renew and approve that lioly con.stitution, with approbation of the present holy 
 council.' Accordingly Mech Cauns saith, that ' the Latt-ran <.ouncil did renew 
 and approve that extravagant Cindeed extravagant) constitution:' and Barro- 
 nius saith of it, that • all do assent to it, so that none dissenteth who do not by 
 discord fall from the church.' 
 
 The truth 1% pope Boniface did not invent that proposition, but borrowed it 
 from the school; for Thoma.s Acpiinas in hit work agmn-tt the (Ireeks, prctend- 
 eth *o iihow, that it it of nectssity to salvation lo be subject to the Roman 
 Ponlij:' •' 
 
 The appendix to Mart Pol sail'i of pope Boniface VIII. < Ref^tm it Rcf^tm, 
 J^Inndi M'lnarchitm.unicum in spiriliialihus el temporalihus Dominum promnU 
 ^vit;' that he openly declared LinWeU to be the king of kings, monarch of the 
 world, and sole lord and governor both in spirituals a\\i\ temporals. 
 
 Before him, pope Innocent IV. did hold aud cxem|)Jify the same notion; de- 
 claring the emperor Frederick II. his vassal, oiid denouncing in his general coun- 
 cil of Lyons, a sentence of deprivation against him iii these terms: We linving, 
 about the foregoing and many otiier his wicked miscarriages, had bef'ire n care- 
 ful deliberatinn »\ith our brethren and lb-- holy council, seeing that we, although 
 unworthy, do holil the place of Je«u» Christ on earth, and that it was said unto 
 IIS in the person of .St. Peter the npoallc, whatever thou shaUbinil on earth — tha 
 •aid prince (who halli rcHdered himsdf unworthy of empire and kingdiMin, and 
 of all honor and dignity, and tvho for his iiiir|uities is cast nway by (><>d, and that 
 he should not reign or coiniiiand, being biiind by his sins and cast nway, and 
 deprived by the I.or«l of nil honor and tiignilv) do show. <!enoiince, and accor- 
 dingly, by sentence, deprive; absolving nil who are luld hound by nnth of alle- 
 giance from such f)ath forever; by apostolical authority firmly prohibiting, that 
 no man henceforth do obey or rcg^ird hini at eniperor or king; and decreeing^ 
 
 2 1} 40
 
 314 DEBATE ON THR 
 
 that whoever shall hereafter yield advice, or aid, or favor to him as emperor or 
 kini^, shall iintuediately lie under the baiui of excommunication." 
 
 Before him, pope Innocent the third, (that true wonder ol the world, and 
 changer of the ago.) did aliirm the pontifical authority so much to exceed the 
 royal power, as the sun doth the moon; " and applieth to the former that of the 
 prophet Jeremiah: Kcrc, consliini ie super genles et regna; — see, I have set 
 thee over the nations and over the kingdoms to root out and to pull down, and 
 to destroy and to throw down," (tec. 
 
 Article xxiii. Pope Pius IV. "I do acknowledge the holy Catholic and 
 apostolic Roman church to be the mother and mistress of all churches; and I 
 do promise and swear true obedience to the bishop of Rome, the successor of 
 Peter, the prince of apostles, and the vicar of Jesus Christ." [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 4 o'clock, JP. M. 
 Bishop Pcrcem. rises — 
 
 My friends, Mr. Kinmont will read, before I close, what Liguori says on 
 the subject of Mr. Smith's charges asjainst the Catholic church. It affords 
 me more pleasure than I can express, to have an opportunity of proving, by a 
 gentleman, who is not a Catholic, and therefore is a disinterested witness, as far 
 as I and my religion are concerned, tliat it is all a base slander. 
 
 We have heard a great deal about the pope's deposing kings, and absolving 
 subjects from their oaths of allegiance, and so on. In your presence and 
 hearing therefore, I am going to put my friend into one of the most terrible di- 
 lemmas in which he has ever been placed in his life. Now, sir, (addressing 
 Mr. C.) suppose you had been living at the time of the American Revolu- 
 tion, and were witness to the tyranny, which these colonies had to endure, 
 on the part of his most gracious majesty, king George III. of England : when 
 the spirit of a mighty and a numerous people was roused by excess of wrong, 
 to make one vast effort for freedom. Under these circumstances, the Gene- 
 ral in chief, the officers, and the army, the revenue department, and post- 
 masters, all of whom had taken an oath of allegiance to that king, appeal to 
 you, inquiring, what is to be done ? Asking you if the oath was binding. 
 "What would be your reply ? 
 
 Mn. Campbell. If they had taken a solemn oath, they should not 
 break it. 
 
 Bisuor PnacKLL. Then was George Washington a perjurer, and all the 
 officers of the array and navy, all the signers of the Declaration of Inde- 
 pendence, and all the subjects of the king of Great Britain were perju- 
 rers ! I 
 
 Mr. CAMrDELi.. That docs not follow from my answer to your question. 
 
 Bisuup PuiicELL. And what would you have persons to do, who had 
 taken the oath of allegiance ? 
 
 Mn. Campbell. " It is better not to vow, than to vow and not pay" — as 
 sa-th the good Book. 
 
 Mr. Campbell rose and said, that for his part, we should always do our 
 duty, and leave consequences to God. When he intends the deliverance of a 
 people, he will effect for them redemption, as he did for his people out of 
 Egypt, 
 
 Bishop Puhcell, There is no oath of artificial contrivance, stronger than 
 the natural tie between the subject and the king, the governed and the gov- 
 ernment ; of whatever form it may be. This is an oath, jirior and superi ir to 
 all other oaths. But if those of the colonists, who had not taken a conventional 
 oatli, or an oath of office, to the king of England, had alone rebelled, what could 
 thpy have done"! Were not the army and the civil and military officers bound by 
 their oath to resist rebellion 1 How then could human rights have been vin- 
 dicated, or human wrongs redressed ? You have repeatedly said " vox popnli.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 315 
 
 VOX Bei," in the course of this discussion ; in other words that the 
 people's will was the most authentic interpretation of the will of God, 
 that it could give a call to the ministry and give to its choice a right 
 to exercise spiritual powers ! ! Thus, my friends, you see the dilem- 
 ma to which the gentleman has been reduced, and that, while Catho- 
 lics are reproached for their slavish tenets, he himself teaches the 
 whole doctrine of passive obedience, and condemns the very principle 
 of the American Revolution. I leave you to reflect on what the gen- 
 tleman has uttered. Now mark the diflference. Had my friend deci- 
 ded my question, as the Father of his country did similar ones, he 
 would have been sustained by the voice and the spirit of the American 
 people — and of all denominations thereof, both Catholics and Protest- 
 ants, the contemporaries of a struggle in which, they, who engaged at 
 this side the water, " periled everv thing but their sacred honor." 
 Whereas, the pope, when he absolved from their oath the English 
 Catholics, whose were the lands, and the houses, the churches and the 
 schools, the hospitals and the glory of England ; whose sufferings ex- 
 ceeded those of the American colonists as much as the Alieghanies do 
 a grain of sand, decided upon far better grounds than did the sages of 
 our Revolution, that passive obedience, under such circumstances, 
 ceased to be a virtue. Yet one word more — the absolution was con- 
 sidered by those very Catholics, an exceeding of his powers, and ihey 
 did not act upon it. His decision was, for them, no article of faith. 
 
 My friend's next resort, in the way of documentary evidence, is to 
 the Encyclopedia of religious knowledge, just published. He does 
 not know the author, or the entire title of the work, nor the history c( 
 its " getting up." Fessendon is the author of the volume. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. I do know the author, but bishop Purcell does not. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. That is Protestant Jesuitism. He is the pub- 
 lisher. In the New York Churchman of a recent date, there is a story 
 told of a most egregious imposture practised on the patrons of this 
 same volume. The editors professed to give the views of the 
 different sects, in the very words of their respective standards, or ac- 
 credited writers, and carefully disguised the fact, tiiat it was to be sub- 
 servient to the interests of one particular sect, the Baptists. They ap- 
 plied to an Episcopal minister, to write an nrticlr; on Episcojiacy, and 
 to patronize the publication. This looked like fair play — the poor 
 minister was caught in the snare and signed his name recommending 
 the Encyciopirdia. But lo ! when the work appeared, it was wholly 
 opposed lo Episcopalianism ; and this fliigrant violation of the faith 
 due to the public from the publishers, elicited a most cutting, hut at 
 the same time, most merited castigation from the (Episcopal) Church- 
 man. I hope the article will he read, by every sincere en(|uirer after 
 truth, that he may bo able to appreciate, according to its value, this 
 new humbug. 
 
 We come bark to the Jesuits. It w;is so notorious; to I'Vederick, 
 the Great, of Prussia, tli;it the .Jesuits had been cainmniated, and most 
 foully dealt with, that, Protestant, as he was, he received them in his 
 dominions, and placed them in many of his colleges. He told ih*; other 
 kings of Europe that they wrmld soon be sorry for the expulsion of an 
 order that had donesomiK-h for lilcralnrt! and srieiiee. "The day will 
 come," said he, "when you will be offering me, 300 pounds for a j)ro- 
 curator, 400, for a professor, 600, for a Rector, and a per valorem, for
 
 81G DEBATE ON THE 
 
 inferior officers of the Jesuits, but depend upon it, I will fleece yoa 
 well. I will make you pay dearly for your folly." Frederick was a 
 great judge of human nature, my friends, and he had a keen sense of 
 the superior claims of the .lesuiis, for good scholarship, and moralily. 
 Hence his kingdom and his palace were given ihein, with his own 
 confidence. The celebrated preacher, Bourdaloue, was a Jesuit, and 
 who has ever preached a sounder, or a purer morality ] 
 
 My worthy friend said, the Jesuits supported kings and monarchs, 
 and were for crushing the people; and most grossly did he contradict 
 himself, by stating almost at the same moment, that they were the most 
 formidable enemies of kings, and it was for their opposition to their 
 measures, that kings banished them from several of the kingdoms of 
 Europe. Thus they were, according to his account, the supporters of 
 kings and the enemies of kings! 'Phe infamous Pombal of Portugal 
 bejan the crusade against the Jesuits. Read his history, and it will be 
 their best vindication — or see them ainong the savages of Paraguay ! 
 This word alone reveals to the intelligeu't reader, a series of wonders 
 perfonned for God, humanity and viriur, such as the world, perhaps, 
 has never witnessed since the establishment of Christianity. 
 
 Next comes the theocracy of the Jews. And is not Jehovah nur 
 king also ] Is he not ever Lord over all 1 Do we not acknowledge 
 that there is no power but from him ? My argument was this. If it 
 be essentially incompatible with liberty, to obey the same ruler in 
 temporal and ecclesiastical things, God could not have established 
 such a government on earth. But, God did establish such an authorr 
 ity ; therefore, it is not incompatible with liberty. I do not wish to 
 see ii now, unless God should vouchsafi; to be as iiaanifestly our king, 
 as he was the king of the J(!ws ; which is not to happen iinder the 
 Christian dispensation, as it did under the old law. (Mirist has de- 
 clared, that his kingdom is not of this world. My worthy opponent 
 said, that the fleshly body and the heavenly body of Christ, were not 
 the same. I ask, then, what became of his fleshly body 1 Did it rot 
 in the ground 1 I call on him to answer this queslion. "Thou wilt 
 not leave my soul in hell," says David, "nor wilt Ihou suffer Iky Holy 
 One to see corruption." (Ps. xv. 10.) It was spiritualized, but still 
 the same body, according to what he said to his disciples, frighted at 
 this apparition, supposing they had seen a spirit : '• See my hands and 
 my feet .• it is myself: handle and see ,- for a spirit hath not flesh and hones, 
 as you sec me to have.'''' (Luke xxiv. 39.) He is "ever living," 
 (Heb. vii. 25,) to make intercession for us, by the eloquent mouths of 
 his wounds, which he exhibits, for us, to his Father in heaven. He 
 gave them, as he had previously done to 'I'homas, the signs they 
 asked ; while he reprehended them, as he did that apostle, '■'■fir slouf- 
 neas of belief .''^ It was thus that, when the Jews murmured for meat 
 in the wilderness, loathing as light food the manna of heaven, God 
 gave them meat to satiety ; and afterwards, for their unbelief, not only 
 excluded them from the land of promise, but scattered their carcases 
 in the desert. 
 
 My friend told you, how nun h afraid he v.as of Catholics. My 
 friends, what a pretty tale he made of it. I was really going to say : 
 " Poor baby, do not be so afraid : do not be 3uc!i a coward : shake off 
 those old woman's fears about raw head and bloody bones, and be 
 more manly." Washington, though he lived in u less enlightened
 
 B03Li:« CATHOLIC RELIGION. 317 
 
 age than this, was not afraid of Catholics. They stood by his side in 
 the battles for freedom. They never flinched, even at the cannon's 
 mouth. When he drew his sword for this republic, they followed its 
 beaminor to victory or to death. La Fayette, and hosts of others, 
 whose Irhaplains had said mass for them in the morning before the 
 engao-ement, bled or conquered in the trenches of liberty. And never 
 was ^orreeting more cordial, or triumph m.ore glorious, than theirs, 
 when^they mingled their salutations and tears with those of their 
 American companions in arms, at the surrender of Lord Cornwallis, 
 in York-Town. Witness, too, those noble poles, (Kosciusko! may 
 his shade rise up, and rebuke this spirit of intolerance !) the Irish, the 
 South Americans, all fighting for liberty, all Catholics. Look at 
 William Tell, a Roman Catholic. Go to Venice, for five hundred 
 years a republic, though surrounded by absolute governments. Look 
 at the little republic of .San Marino, of which John Adams has related 
 the remarkable history. There is not such a people for libeny, on the 
 globe, as the Roman Catholics. Look nearer home, at Maryland, 
 where the Catholics were the first that proclaimed freedom of 
 
 CONSCIENCE I.N THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE ! ! LeT THIS BE OUR ANSWER 
 TO A THOLSAND SLANDERS. 
 
 I come now to the oath of bishops. I have taken the oath of alle- 
 giance to the United States. It was the first I ever took. So have 
 all my brethren in the episcopacy taken it. The head of the Catholic 
 church in the United States, is an American; so is a large number of 
 our clergy. The rest preferred this country, believing there was here, 
 what their own country denies, what our constitution guarantees, lib- 
 erty of conscience. The oath that the bishops lake, is not a recogni- 
 tion of any temponil power of the po]»e, out of his own territory, called 
 the States of the Church, in Italy. We would never take the oath in 
 the odious sense, which my opponent would force upon it. This so- 
 lemn and authentic abjuration should, alone, be sufficient to settle this 
 account; for I surely know what I swear to, and that what I here 
 BUte will bo seen and read by those, whom no human fear could deter 
 from denouncing me for error, if I could be guilty of any, on a point 
 with which I ought to be so well informed. The arms of our warfare 
 are not carnal, but spiritual. He that takes the sword, we believe 
 with Jesus Christ, will die by the sword. Hence, we assume no ob- 
 ligations by that oath, hut such as God imposes; and those to be dis- 
 charged in his own divine spirit of meekness, charity, and good will. 
 It is cruel to impute to us crimes, and to insist that we hold doctrines, 
 which we disavow. Suppose I were so base, as to suborn two or 
 three wicked men, to calumniate my friend Mr. Cnmphell, and to ])rc- 
 tcnd that he was in active correspondence, for treasonable purposes, 
 with some foreign king, ought my opponent to be condemned unheard ? 
 And, in the absence of proof, should we, in spite of all his protesta- 
 tions to the contrary, cofidenm him on suspicion 1 And, if any family 
 had their reputation blaslt'd by some base miscreant, ought this to 
 destroy their estimation in sociely, where his baseness is known 1 All 
 the ministers in the world may eXert their talents and influence, to 
 preservt! ;md promote peace anrl love among mankind ; but as long a8 
 differences in religion are suffered to create jealousy, distrust, and ha- 
 tred between brethren; and certain men make it tlnir trade, to go 
 from town to town, for the express purpose of fanning these embers 
 •2 b -2
 
 3 IS DEBATE ON TUE 
 
 of discord, fomenting this hatred ; so long will the purest and best 
 men continue to be the victims of the malevolent, and our religion, and 
 our constitution, prove to be no more than the idlest day-dream. All 
 the kings and slates of Kurope, Protestant and Catholic, know that 
 the bishops take that oalh, and yet, in none of them is a bishop looked 
 upon with distrust. In Prussia, Sweden, Denmark, England, the 
 government never molests a bishop about an oath, which is known to 
 contain nothing at wliich the most captious statesman could justly take 
 exception. Is not this sufficient proof, that there is in that oath noth- 
 ing of what my friend attributes to it. I assure him. Catholic bish- 
 ops are not the enemies that this republic needs to fear. 
 
 Kvery argument my friend employs against the Eucharist, only 
 proves him an inconsistent reasoner, or a deist, as far as the argument 
 goes. The paschal lamb was a figure of the eucharist, and the figure 
 was surely nobler than the reality, if we have nothing better than a 
 bit of bread in the eucharist. But the apostle tells us that the weak 
 and beggarly elements of the Jewish rites, were to obtain their glori- 
 ous fulfilment in tiie land of grace — and only in the Catholic church 
 is this verified. We eat the paschal lamb sprinkled with, or in other 
 words, veiled beneath the appearance of bread ; and every objection 
 urged against the real presence is equally strong, or weak against the 
 incarnation. Can this paste, says Mr. C. be God 1 I answer by an- 
 other question : can this informal embryo in a virgin's womb be God 1 
 
 We come now to Scotus. The gentleman says he heard or saw 
 him quoted by the Catholics. He says many people quote Zoroas- 
 ter and Confucius without knowing any thing about them. There is 
 no parallel between them. If a man quotes, as evidence, a writer, 
 like Scotus, he ought to know who he was. I do not blame him for 
 knowing nothing of Cliinese theology. But of Christian theology, 
 it is a shame for a man, who pretends to be, himself, a teacher in Isra- 
 el, and a polemic, who challenges Catholic bishops, to be so grossly 
 ignorant. 
 
 My friend says we bow to the pope. In England, Protestants bow 
 to the foot-stool of the throne. I bow to any friend I meet — I do not 
 pay him, nor the pope divine honor. We know the meaning of our 
 own bows, and words, and oaths, and would not pledge them insin- 
 cerely, much less blasphemously. No wonder that the pope let him- 
 self be persuaded to do good, in the case cited by my friend. Should 
 he have preferred a contrary course? Have done evil ? 
 
 Temporal power is inferior to spiritual power, as human power is 
 inferior to divine; just as heaven is superior to earth, in dignity and 
 value, and God superior to creatures, in every divine excellence, but 
 not in the sense that lie who has been invested with spiritual power 
 by God, has also been invested by him, in a kingdom which is not of 
 this world, with temporal power. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest 
 scholar of the 13lh century, and eminent scholar in the dark ages, 
 read his works, with those of a Kcmpis, for proofs of Catholic piety, 
 instead of garbled extracts from forgeries, and the works of apostates, 
 whom we discarded from our communion for immoralities, which no 
 Protestant communion would tolerate. They breathe the spirit of 
 devotion, the spirit of God. 
 
 My friends, Mr. Kinrnont will now tell you whether the pretended 
 quotation of Mr. Smith from Liguori, is correct. You will recollect 
 "hat Mr. Smith said, that, according to Liguori, the Catholic church
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 319 
 
 allows priests to keep concubines upon a fine. Upon hearing this I 
 at once said that the charo^e was an infamous falsehood ; and I will 
 now show that Liguori said no such thing ; that Liguori says the con- 
 trary. If I tell a falsehood Mr. Kinniont will confound me ; if I 
 do not, somebody docs. Thus truth will triumph and falsehood be 
 confounded. 
 
 Mr. Kinmo.nt. I am called on in my professional character sim- 
 ply, and have no part or lot in this debate, (Mr. K. is understood to 
 be a Swedenborgian) I sincerely believe they are disputing about 
 shadows, and that both parties are equally in the wrong ; but I will 
 do what I can to assist in clearing up the difficulty of fact. I find 
 it stated in Samuel Smith's work and marked as a quotation from 
 Liguori under the article headed "concubines of clergy." 
 
 COXCL'H-Nts OK THK C'LEIKiV. — " A bishop liowever poor lie inn\ be, cannot 
 appropriate to iiiiiiself pecuniary lines without the license of the Apostolical 
 See. But he ought to appb' tliein to pious uses. Much less can he apply those 
 fints to any (hinj( else but pious uses, which the Council if Trent has laid upon 
 non-resident clerg-ynu n,or upon those clcrgynun ivho ktep concubines." — Ligor. 
 Ep. Dor.. iMor. p.'444. 
 
 And the following is Smith's commentary. — 
 
 How shamel'ul a thinj^, that the .Apostolical iiVe, as tlity call it, that is, that 
 the pope of Rome, should enrich his coders by the fines nliich he receives from 
 the profligacy of his Clergy! If thty keep coHCi;/)mfi, they must pay a fine 
 for it; but ii^ they marry, tliey must be excommunicated ! I'his accounts, at 
 once, for the custom in Sj)ain, and other countries, and especially on the island 
 of Cuba, and in South America; where almost every priest has concubines, who 
 are known by the name of nieces. These abandoned men are willing 'o P»y 
 the fine rather than forego the gratification of their lustful appetites. The 
 " iVarrativk of Rosa.Mond," who was once herself one ot these concu- 
 bines, in the island of Cuba, portrays the general licentiousness of the popish 
 rlergy, in colors so shocking, that the picture cannot be looked at without a 
 blush'. Here we see the doctrine fully exemplified by practice. This keeping 
 of concubines, is a thing 80 coininon in the popish West India islands, and in 
 South America, that it is rarely noticed. 'Ilie ollspring of this priestly inter- 
 course are numerous. They are known to be the children of the priests; but, 
 because it is the general custom, it is lavful; and it passfs o(f im rely with a 
 joke or sarcamn. 
 
 This is the text and commentary as I find it in Mr. Smith's book. 
 This is marked as Liguori, p. 114. If taken from Liguori at all, it is 
 taken from a different edition. The pres<>nl purjiorts to be a complete 
 copy of the works of liiguort. It hears no mark of being an e.xpur- 
 crated edition. It is said to be an edition of what was mid aiuimritlcn 
 befirr wilJi additiom. On turning to the place where he treats of fines 
 and punisliiiieiitK inflicted for eonrubinage, be says that priests guilty 
 of tbis offence, were, after two inelfertna! reprimands, to !)<> degraded 
 from their functions. He refers to the council of Trent, and states 
 what that council decreed. Smith throws us on Liguori, and liiguori 
 on the coiinejl of Trent. There is notiiing in Liguori relating to iliat 
 subject but this. The council wase;illed ;iI>ihM the year l.'il'i. 'I'iiis 
 edition of the decrees of th(! couneil was edited by the (•(iiiiicil itself. 
 I have had an abstract taken which I will read. It would take, some 
 time to read the original, and 1 have a translation made by one of my 
 scholars. I will rear! this. 
 
 " In the r»< ordd of the decrees of the roniicil of 'I'rcnt, Session 2.?th, chap. 
 14th, there i<i de^rrilxd the inclhod of proceading in the cnse.s of rlcirgy, who 
 are guilty of concubinage. 
 
 Alter shewing the nranrliil and enormity of this niii, rsperiidly in clergy, whom 
 integrity of life, should recommend and iuiprcss the precepts of religioa and of
 
 320 DEBATE 0> THE 
 
 the church; the sacred synod forbids that any individual holding the clerical 
 office shall keep at his house or elsewhere, any inistress or unchaste wonian or 
 cohabit with any such, under the penalty of having enforced against him the 
 sacred canons, and erclpsiastical statutes regarding that matter. It is, then, espe- 
 cially enacted that if when admonished by their superiors they shall not desist 
 from all such unlawful and foi bidden acts, they sliall be deprived of the third 
 pari of all their revenues and ( crlesiastir al dues: and if still persevering in their 
 course, they shall not even heed a second admonition, they sliall be deprived of 
 alt their ecclesiastical revenue, and suspended from the administration of eccle- 
 biastical functions; and if, during this suspension, they shall continue obstinatb 
 <»nd incorrig-ible, they shall be <ieclared altogether unfit and incompetent to ex- 
 ercise any spiritual ollire whatever belonging to the church; unless after a clear 
 and unequivocal amendment of life, the church should think proper to with- 
 draw the disqualification, and allow them to resume their former station of 
 honor and trust. But if after the resumption of the duties of their office, they 
 should resort to those impure practices which they had abandoned, besides the 
 infliction of the above named penalties, an act of excommunication with its 
 sword of justice shall cut them oil", as dead branches from the body of the faith- 
 ful and church of the living God. And it is farther enacted that no appeal, or 
 exemption shall hinder the execution of any of these decrees, but that they shall 
 be summarily executed, at the will of the bishop, after he has ascertained the 
 existence ofthe enormities. A similar provision in its effects and spirit is made 
 •vith relation to bishops themselves, but the order of proceeding is ditl'erent.'" 
 This is in substance the provision of the deceee of the council of Trent. Sess. 
 25, cap. 14. [Time expired.] 
 
 SATURDAY, January 24th, Half-past 9 o'clock, A. M. 
 
 Mr. Campbell rises — ,, 
 
 Under any other circumstances than the present, I should have in- 
 sisted on being allowed the same number of minutes over my stipu- 
 lated hour, which my friend has taken with Mr. Kinmont's exposi- 
 tion, over his usual time. 
 
 Bishop Porcell. — I have no objection to Mr. Campbell's occupy- 
 ing that much more time. It is right that he should. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. I feel obliged to the gentleman for his courtesy, 
 and will therefore proceed. My friends, you will doubtless have ob- 
 served, that of all the extracts read from Ligori, found on the pages 
 of Smith, but one was challenged by the Bishop, on the ground that 
 it is not found in the page of St. Ligori in the edition now before us. 
 The case is simply this. According to the moral theology of the church 
 of Rome, marriage is a greater sin than concubinage: for, if a priest 
 marry, he is forthwith excommunicated ; but if lie keep a concubine 
 he only pays a fine. This is the statement that Mr. Smith makes : 
 and translates the passage in Ligori as follows: 
 
 " A bishop, liowever poor lie may be, cannot appropriate to himself pecuniary 
 fines without \\\?. license of the .Apostolical see. But he on^ht to apply them 
 to pious uses. .Much less can he apply those fines to any thing else but pious 
 uses, which the council of Trent has laid upon non-resident clergymen, or upon 
 ihos". clerer'i'nenwlio keep cowjihini's.'' I.ipor. F,p. Doc. Mor. p. 444. 
 
 Now, Bishop PuRCELL denies that there is such a passage in Ligo- 
 ri, or that there is in the council of Trent any such arrangement; and 
 in proof of it, he has brought us an edition of St. Ligori, and the de- 
 crees of the council of Trent. But the edition which he has produ- 
 ced, has not, upon the page referred to, tlie passage quoted. In the 
 passage quoted, the reference to Ligori is to a decree of Trent. But
 
 E05IAX CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 321 
 
 there are always two ways of quoting a passage : the one verbatim ; 
 and the other, substantially. Whether Ligori quotes the decree of 
 Trent literally, or only quotes the substance, we cannot afErm. The 
 bishop referred this matter to Mr. Kinmont, without consulting me. 
 It was an exparte reference ; and therefore, comes not fairly before 
 us. Although I have no objection to Mr. Kinmont; but en the con- 
 trary, I think him very competent to decide a matter of this kind, if 
 he had time to examine all these volumes : and perhaps, had I been 
 consulted, I should have agreed in selecting him : yet as the refer- 
 ence is wholly one sided ; it can have no authority here. However, 
 so far as the decrees of Ttenl have been read, they do speak of fines 
 or forfeitures of those who have concubines, and these do substan- 
 tially sustain all that I have alleged. 
 
 I have this morning received a paper of Mr. Smith's, in which I 
 find an article '■'■ on the auUmrity nj Ligori," which I will now read. 
 
 " AI[)lio;i9us de Ligori was canonized by i'opc Pius VII. on the 15th of Sep- 
 tember, A. D. 1815, under the title of the Most Illustrious and Most Reverend 
 Lord Alphonsus de Ligorio. He has written the Modern Theology of the 
 church 01 Rome, in nine l.irge volumes, containing 4701 pages, which was pub- 
 lished at Mechlin, Stiperioruni Pcrmissu, A. D. 1828. 
 
 His Theology is called, in the preface of the work, "The Light." His doc- 
 trine after having been explored, was approved of by Pope Pius, VII. on the 
 18th May, 1803, after the Sacred Congregation of Rites had given it their sanc- 
 tim. «nd had declared that there was >oTHl>fi IN IT worthy oF CENSURE. 
 Ligori was spoken of bv the sacred Poalifl', Leo XII. in the highest terms; and 
 his eminence the Serf-ne Cardin il uf Cistile, the Major Penitentiary, in his letters 
 to the i3ishop of .Massiben, says, that Saint Ligori is not only an ornament to the 
 Episcopal character bv the illustrious splendor of his virtues; but he shines re- 
 splendent by his so'uM) DOCTRiNt, wliich )3 according to God. Doctrinani 
 •anclam.ac serunium Di um." (I'ref. Ivlitoris.) 
 
 In his preface to his Synopsis Mr. Smith observes : 
 
 " If they deny that we have given a fair translation, we will then rhalleng^e 
 them to come forward in a public assembly with the works of St. Ligori, when we 
 promise to meet them, and submit our translation, and the original, to the inspec- 
 tion of a committee, one half of whom to be chofen by ourselves, and the other 
 half by the Roman clergy. Truth never phuns investigntion. If we have not 
 given a fair, genuine, and true translation, and if we have not exhibited the doc- 
 trinei of Ligori, and the church of Rome fairly and correctly, without garbling, 
 or giving an erroneous construction, we will be willing to incur the consequenceu 
 that we oiKjIit t<) expect, for having deceived the public." Synop. IVef. p. 12. 
 
 I will thank the Bishop to inform me the date of his edition of the 
 works of rjgori. 
 
 Bkshop Purcell. — What is the date of Mr. Smith's edition 1 
 
 Mb. Campbem,.— 1H28. 
 
 Bishop PtrtrKi.i,. — This edition [pointing to hi.s own"] was also 
 published in 1828 : so that it appears both are the same. 
 
 Mn. ('ampbei.i. [here taking u|) a volnmt! of tiie Bishop's copy of 
 liigori read] " A'diVjo J\'<>ra Enirndatn." It hfiire appears that tiie 
 Bishop's is n fw.w amended edition ,- so that, probably, this and the 
 one used by Mr. Smith arc not tho same. Be this, iiowcvor as it may, 
 nothing is lost by the oxatiiinalion : nothing is proved against >ir. 
 Kmilh HH a translator, ami I shall write fortliwith to New ^'ork to Mr. 
 Smith for the original Latin of this passagi- in his edition, and have 
 it certified and published among this community. 
 
 But were it lawful to read in this assembly, I have before me the de- 
 crees of <ronncil.s, and the words of bishops and cardinals, trachJnff 
 the very dotlriru- which th«! Bishop would represent as a reproach 
 or calumny on liia cl«r^y and church. Here is the decree of a coui>- 
 
 ii
 
 S22 DEBATE ON TUB 
 
 cil at Toledo, and here are references to various councils, such as Bi- 
 vii Concilia, Tom. I. pp. 737, 739. Crabb. Concil. Tom. I. p. 449. 
 Edition of 1551, and Pithou Corp. .lu. Canon, p. 47, as quoted by Dr. 
 Brownlcc, wliich <ro to prohibit ])riests '■'■from keepins; more than one 
 concubine,''^ and declare marriage in a priest to be " a mortal sin." 
 And here is Costeriis and cardinal Campysrio who taught what I dare 
 not read here; but I will reserve all this for a more convenient season. 
 
 [Mr. Campbell here called for the reading again of the seventh 
 proposition, which being read by Mr. Piatt, one of the Moderators, 
 he proceeded.] 
 
 About the year 1088, Urban II. decrees: 
 
 " That subjects are by no authority conj-tiaiiied to pay the fidelity which they 
 have sworn to a chri'rtidn prince, who opposeth (Jod ana his saints, or violateth 
 tlieir precepts.' An instance whereof we have in his granting a privilcg;e to the 
 canons of Tours; 'which,' saith he, * if any enipei'or, kiu;^, prince, &c. kball 
 wilfully attempt to thwart, let him be deprived of the dignity of liis honor and 
 power." [Barrow, p. 22. 
 
 Again, the council of Toledo still more fully expresses the spirit 
 of the age. 
 
 " W'c tne holy council promulge this sentence or decree, pleasing to God, that 
 whosoever hereafter shall succeed to the kin°;dom, shall not mount the throne, 
 till he has sworn among other oaths, to permit no man to live in his kingdom, 
 u-ho is nof a Cntholic. And if after he has taken the reins of government, he 
 shall violate his promise, let him be anathema maranatha, in the sight of the 
 eternal Go.i, anci become fuel of eternal fire — pabulum ignis seterni. [Caranza, 
 p. 404. 
 
 Innocent III. (that true wonder of the world and changer of the 
 age) affirms : 
 
 " I'nder I'ope Inno;-f nt. III. it was ordained, that if any temporal lord, being 
 r quired and admonished by the church, should neglect to purge his territory 
 from heretical filth, he should by the metropolitan and the other comprovincial 
 bishops, be noosed in the band of excommunication ; and that if he should slight 
 to make satisTaction within a year, it should be signilied to the Pope, that he 
 might from that time denounce the subjects absolved from their fealty to hina, 
 and exp.ose the territory to be seized on by Catholics." Barrow, p. 22. 
 
 Adrian I. A. D. 772, thus decrees : 
 
 " We do by general decree constitute, that whatever king, or bishop, or po- 
 tentate, shall hereafter believe, or permit, that the censure of the Roman pon- 
 tiffs may be violated in any case, he shall be an execrable anathema, and shall be 
 guilty before God, as a betrayer of the Catholic faith." P. Had. I. Capit apud 
 Grat. Cans. xxv. qii. I. c. 11. 
 
 Leo IX. says, that Constantine M. " did think it very unbecoming 
 that they should be subject to an earthly empire, whom the Divine 
 Majesty had set over an heavenly." Of Gregory II. who lived 
 A. D. 730, Barronius says, " He effectually caused both the Romans 
 and Italians to recede from obedience to the emperor." " So," con- 
 tinues this authentic historian, — " he did leave to posterity a worthy 
 example that heretical princes should not be suffered to reign in the 
 church of Christ, if being warned they should be found pertinacious 
 in error." To consummate the whole, Gregory II. did say to the em- 
 peror Isauros : " All the kingdoms of the west did hold St. Peter as 
 an earthly God." 
 
 AVishing to crowd as much into this speech as I possibly can in 
 one hour, I .shall, with as much rapidity as is consistent with distinct- 
 ness of etiunciation, hasten through many documents. Thus we have 
 seen, that for at least five centuries, the heads of the Roman church 
 clearly and unambiguously taught, that tlie spiritual sword was above 
 the temporal, and that the vicar of Christ is by a divine right Lord
 
 B02IAN CATnOLIC RELIGION. 323 
 
 of thrones and all earthly things. This, I have no douht, is the true 
 doctrine of the immutable and infallible church of Rome! and certain 
 it is, that it has never been disowned, or renounced, by a general 
 council, the organ of infallibility. If the church of Rome be insus- 
 ceptible of reformation, or infallible ; it is proved to be essentially 
 anti-American, and opposed to the genius of our institutions. 
 
 To resume the bishop's oath. The gentleman at length admitted 
 that lie had taken the bishop's oath, by saying, that he took the oath 
 of naturalizationyJrs/ .' .' There is but one oath for Roman bishops in 
 all countries, therefore, the Bishop is sworn to " increase and advance 
 the authority of the pope," and persecute and oppose (fight against) 
 heretics and schismatics. If he have not taken this oath, he will please 
 refer us to the oath he has sworn, and specify its peculiarities. 
 
 The defence is a very singular one. Hearst swore allegiance to 
 the United Stales, and then to that foreign prince the pope. Does he 
 mean, contrary to common usage, that the first oath is more binding 
 than the second ; or, that it neutralizes the anti-American attributes 
 of the second. But his explanation is but half given in the first point, 
 that he took the oath of American allegiance bifurehe took the oath 
 of Roman allegiance. The other ground of defence was in the 
 query, which, with such a triumphant air, he put to me yesterday 
 evening — viz. whether I would not have been justified in breaking 
 my oath to England, had I been an American colonist or soldier at 
 the time of the revolution, when the king tyrannized over the Ameri- 
 cans 1 I have already answered this question, and have affirmed that 
 in Protestant doctrine, no circumstance or contingency, can ever ab- 
 Bolvc a person from the obli<jation of an oath, into which he has in- 
 telligently and voluntarily entered. It is in the estimation of chris- 
 tians most impious and daring for any prince or pope to presume to 
 absolve men from the obligations of an oath solemnly taken. If, in- 
 deed, an oath has in it the nature of a covenant, then one of the 
 parties failing, so far vacates the covenant as to set the other free 
 from his oath : but this is not absolution for breaking it; it is a simple 
 annulling of its conditions. Now, in the case supposed, the king of 
 England was generally allowed to have receded from the conditions 
 on which that oath was taken by the persons who renounced alle- 
 giance to him ; lie having failed to protect and cherish his American 
 subjects, according to the, tenor of the charter given, they were freed 
 from the obligations of allegiance. But I beg my audience to re- 
 member that the bishop alleinpts to defend himself for breaking his 
 oath in certain contingencies: else, why ask me such a question? 
 The bishop's plea is, therefore, that oaths may be broktn, and that 
 the pope can absolve men from allegiance on a justifiable emergency, 
 when the church, or some other great interest may demand it ! Of 
 what use then is the oath of naturalization ? — 
 
 That the incompatibility of the bishop's oath with our oath of al- 
 legiance may be fibvious, I shall quote, the oath of naturalization, as 
 proposed to every foreigner by the laws of the United Slates: 
 
 Tlie la\v« of tlic U. S. |>r<>vide; 'I'liiil niiv iilii ii, Ik'Iiik n frci- wliilr person, 
 may be Rciniiltcd to become • ritizen of the L. S. or any ol ihiiii, on tlic lollow- 
 Ing; rondjtion, an'riiot oth«-rwiic; That he shall have tlcciarc-d on oalli, or ofTir- 
 tnation, before the iiuprenie lupcrior, ditlrici, or riniiit court, of loinc one of 
 (be Ktntr*, or a court o( record, having a clerk and teal — 3 )'cart at Ua«t bfifor* 
 ■droiMioo.
 
 824 DEBATE ON THB 
 
 Ht. Oitth of Intention. 
 
 "That it Tras borutjlde, Iiis intention to bfconie a ritizon of the U. S. and to 
 renounre forever, nil allcgiiiiue ami lidtlitv, to any forcii^n Prince, Potentate, 
 State or Sovereignty, whatsoever; and |jarliculiirl_v, by name, the Prince, Poten- 
 tate, State or Sovereionly, whtrei/f he may, at the time be n citizen or suliject. 
 
 That he shall, at the time of his application to be adniitted, declare, on oath 
 or artirniation, before a court as above. 
 
 2d. Oatii of Renitncialion , Atjurnlion , <S-c. nnd of Fidelity on Admission. 
 
 " That lie will support the coii^tilntion of tiic U. S. and that he doth absolutely 
 and entirely renounce and abjure ail alle<>iance and fuh lity to every foreign 
 Prince, Potentate, State or Sovereignty wliatevcr; and paiticniarly by name 
 the Prince, Potentate, State, Sovertignly whereof he was before a ciiizc-ii or 
 subject. 
 
 The court admitting; the alien to be satisfied that he has resided five years 
 within the U. S. one year in tlie state, and (liat he has behaved as a man of 
 good moral character, attached to the princi[)l>s of the constitution of the (J. S. 
 and well disposed to the goo<i order and happine-^s of the same. The residence 
 to be proved by a witness, not by oath of the applicant. 
 
 Where a person comiiisrinto the United States 3 years before 21 years of age* 
 proving same character, and continued residence 3 years, admitted as before 
 •taled on tiie first application, on taliing final oath ol abjuration, renunciation, 
 fidelity, &c. without the first oath of intention. 
 
 Further provided; That in case the alien applying to be admitted to citizen- 
 »hio, shall have borne any hereditary title, or been of any of the orders of No- 
 bility, in the kingdom or state from which became, he shall in addition to the 
 above requisites, make an express renunciation of liJs title or order o-f Nobility, 
 at the time to be recorded, i:c. 
 
 Further provided — That no alien who shall be a native citizen, denizen, or 
 subject of any country, state or soven ign, with whom the U. S. shall be at war at 
 the time of his application, shall be then adniitted to be a citizen of the U. S." 
 &c. &c. 
 
 Such are the oaths and laws of naturalization. Now, as the popo 
 of Rome is a foreign prince — at this very moment a prince temporal 
 as well as spiritual, exercising political authority over the states rf 
 Borne, and claiming allegiance in temporals as well as spirituals, 
 throughout the whole Roman Catholic world ; I ask, can any one 
 who has sworn "to increase and advance his r«//Ao?-//?/," or feeling 
 himself so bound, as he shall answer for it to the supreme judge of the 
 universe, take or keep the oath of citizenship in this country without 
 perjury ■?! In my most deliberate judgment, it is impossible. 
 
 'I'ho case is simply this : The oath of naturalization requires the 
 candidate for citizenship to swear that he does ahsolutety and entirely, 
 renounce all allegiance and fidclthj to every fureii^n prince, potentate, 
 $tate, or sovereignty. Now, the pope of Rome is a sovereign of Eu* 
 rope — TL foreign potentate, issuing bulls, laws, or briefs, throughout 
 the world : often to secure, augment and advance his authority, in 
 temporals, as well as spirituals ; as the testimony of 500 years now 
 before you, amply demonstrates ; and every Roman Catholic layman 
 feeling a paramount obligation to his bishop, and through him to the 
 pope ; and all the rulers of the Roman Catholic church, bein^ sworn 
 to the pope absolutely and forever, I ask, can such persons m good 
 faith solemnly swear allegiance to this government? If a person can 
 be sworn to support two antagonist constitutions, governments, powers, 
 — two masters, as opposite as the poles : then may he, without per- 
 jury, swear to our government, and to that of papal Rome ! 
 
 But bishops are sworn " to persecute and oppose ( perxequar ct irri^ 
 pugnabo) heretics and schismatics. Papal Rome is and always has 
 D »en, a persecuting government. She is essential ly so. I intend not 
 new to dwell much on l^.is theme. But I will sustain uiy proposition.
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 325 
 
 And first, I admit that Protestants have persecuted, — that they have 
 persecuted even to death. I deny it not ; and therefore my opponent 
 need not prove it. It is a matter of record indisputable however, 
 that their persecutions have not been as a drop to the ocean, in compa- 
 rison of papal persecutions. Still they have persecuted, and we frank- 
 ly own it. But we have an excuse for them. The first Protestants 
 after the Lutheran Reformation, came out from a bloody and cruel 
 mother, who had accustomed them to blood and slaughter, and taught 
 them that the blood of heretics was a sacrifice, most acceptable to 
 God. They were taught that it was just to destroy thieves, rob- 
 bers, and murderers; and that heretics were the worst of thieves, 
 robbers, and murderers, and ought when incorrigible to be slain : for 
 so the good of society did imperiously demand. — As soon as they 
 got out of the great city, they began to contend among themselves, 
 whether persecution was right. They soon saw it was of the manners 
 and customs of Babylon; and that "all who take the sword must 
 perish by the sword ;" therefore they laid it down. They have ab- 
 jured it in their creeds and remonstrances against the papacy; and we 
 rejoice to state the fact, that there is not in Protestant Christendom 
 a single creed that does not repudiate persecution and assert the great 
 principle of christian and religious liberty. 
 
 But I have said that papal liome is essentially a persecuting power 
 — still a persecuting monarchy; because she has it yet written in her 
 infallible and immutable decrees of councils, in the bulls and ana- 
 themas of her popes ; and in the constitution of her inquisitions, which 
 as a church she still acknowledges and maintains. A few of her in- 
 fallible decrees must be accepted as a specimen. 
 
 " 111 the b.iU roiiiK'.il ol Toledo, Can. 3rd, tne holy lathers say, ' We (he holy 
 council promulge this sentence, or decree pleasing to God, That whosoever 
 hereafter shall succeed to the kingdom, shall not mount tlie throne till he has 
 sworn anionjf other oaths, to peniiil no man to live in his kin<^dom who is not a 
 Catholir. (Nullum non Cathulicuiii.) And ifafler he has taken the reins olgo- 
 vernment, hr; shall violate this promise, let him lie anathema inaranatha in the 
 • ght of the eternal Uod, and become fuel for the eternal fire, (Fubuluiu igni* 
 stlerni.) Caraiiza Sum. Conciliorum, p. 404. 
 
 The great Lateran council under Innocent III. who instituted the in- 
 quisition and transubstanlialion, ha.s Btill more expressly decreed : 
 
 " We cxroniniunicatc, and anathematize all heresy, condemning aJI heretici, 
 by what names soever they arc callcfl. « » • • • 
 
 rhcic bein^ condemned, must be left to the secular power to be punished. 
 And those who ore only suspected of hercy, if they purge not themselves in the 
 Appointed way, arc to be excommuiiicnted, and if witniii a year satisfaction is not 
 given, they are to be condemned as heretics. 
 
 Th< y mu»t take this oath. — "That they will endeavor, bona fide, and with nil 
 their might, to exterminate from evrry part of their dominions all heretical sub- 
 jects, unlveri.ally, that are marked out to them by thi' church. So that from 
 this lime forward, when anyone is promoted to any power temporal or spiritual, 
 he shall be oljli^'ed to confirm this. Hut if any temporal lord,l>eing rccpiired 
 and admonished by tin: church, shall neglect to purge his land from this here- 
 tical filthinew, he shall be tied up in the band of excommunication by the me- 
 tropolitan and his coiii[)roviricial bishops. And if he should neglect to make 
 satisfaction within a y«>ar, it should be sii^nified to the nope, that he miKht from 
 that time pronounce the subjects absolved from allegiance to him, and expose 
 his territories to be seized on by Catbolicf, who ex]>clliiig heretics, shall pos- 
 sess them without contradiction. 
 
 Uut Catholics, whj having taken the badge of tlie cross, shall set themselves 
 to extirpate heretics, shall enjoy the same indulgence and be fortified with th« 
 taiua privilege, a« is granted to those who go to th« racovcrjr of Ibc holy land."
 
 326 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 Anci, to save time, be it emphatically observed, that the council of 
 Trent fully established, adopted, and re-promulged those decrees, and 
 they are, at this moment, in full force at Rome. Until, then, a general 
 council is called, and makes fallible the decisions of the great Lateran 
 council; such is, and must be the dictum and belief of the Roman 
 church; and, as I judge, there never will be another general council, 
 this will ever be the doctrine of papal Rome, till the day of her death. 
 Is this, I emphatically ask, the genius and spirit of republican 
 America ? 
 
 But edicts, canons, and decrees, are not a dead letter. They have 
 been all personified, and acted out to the letter. Who has not lieard 
 of that personification of every thing that is diabolically cruel — the 
 Hoi,Y Office of the Inquisition 1 What abuse of language ! Think 
 not, my friends, that I will rake up its ashes; that I will rehearse its 
 horrible racks, and engines, and instruments of torture ; that I will 
 describe a single auto da fc, one of the horrid tragedies of the acts of 
 faith, whose flagrance language fails to speak. " It wns the vice of 
 the age," my opponent has said. Of what age 1 Of Innocent III. ? 
 Of the era of transubstantiation 1 No, indeed ; but of the age of Na- 
 poleon ; of the age of pope Pius, the saint of 1814 ! Yes, of the pres- 
 ent age ! It was got up, indeed, by Innocent (inapposite name !) III., 
 and was fully in operation in Italy, A. D. 1251. Its first officer, Do- 
 minic, was afterwards made a saint ! In Spain and Portugal it was 
 perfected ; and its reign of terror, in unfigurative truth, transcends all 
 description. My soul sickens at the thought. In Spain alone, from 
 1481 to 1814, about half a million suffered by it. Lorente (Paris 
 edit. tom. iv. p. 271,) sets down the victims of one department of tor- 
 ment, those burnt, at 33,912; and of other rigorous punishments, at 
 291,450. He is, by other historians, supposed to be far below the 
 full amount. From the records of the inquisition, the manuscripts 
 taken from the inquisitorial palace at Barcelona, when taken by siege 
 in 1828, one may reckon, that in all Spain, in a little over three centu- 
 ries, half a million suffered all manner of cruelties from this infernal 
 tribunal. 
 
 It was even employed as a means of converting the heathen, in pa- 
 gan lands. It is said, that 800 persons have been condemned at one 
 session, by one of its tribunals. And, still worse, in Seville, in the 
 year 1481, 2000 persons were condemned to the flames, and 20,000 
 more to inferior punishments. Such were the tender niercies of these 
 Roman gospel arguments to save men's souls from hell ! It was the 
 vice of a dark age, and yet restored by Pius VII. in 182G! ! What! 
 
 But, this is only one of the tribunals of persecution ; it was only 
 one of tiie means of persecuting and destroying heretics and schis- 
 matics. Shall I relate the persecutions of the Waldenses and Aibigen- 
 ses, and other Protestants, sometimes called Lollards, Wickliffites, 
 Hugonots, &c. feci Shall I tell of the millions in France, Spain, 
 Portugal, Holland, England, Ireland, and elsewhere] Shall I tell of 
 the massacre of St. Bartholomew's day? of the persecutions conse- 
 quent upon the revocation of the edict of Nantz 1 or the Irish massa- 
 cre'! and of all the other deeds of horror? I shall not attempt it. I 
 cannot describe the slaughter of two millions, in the early crusades 
 against Jews and infidels; nor of fifteen millions of Indians and pa- 
 gans ; nor of a millioQ Waldenses, murdered and banished in a single
 
 KOMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 327 
 
 generation ! I say, again, 1 cannot relate these heart-stirring scenes ; 
 and I shall only say, that historians and mariyrologists variously give 
 the aggregate from ^//y to sixfy-eight mi//ions of human beings, that 
 have been sacrificed and devoured by this Moloch ; this insatiable de- 
 mon of persecution, as taught in theory and carried out in practice, by 
 her who calls herself Holy Mother ! ! ! What a scarlet, crimsoned, 
 cruel mother she is! On her will be avenged the blood of all martyrs. 
 Even the persecutions of those whom she taught to persecute, lie just- 
 ly chargeable against her. What guarantee, then, have we that this be- 
 ing the native spirit of the system, it would not again repeat the same 
 tragic scenes, in any country where it obtains an ascendancy] 'Tis 
 true, indeed, that the Protestant powers in Europe hold it now in 
 check. But, were these removed, from what premises would we in- 
 fer, that the same means would not be resorted to in this and every 
 Protestant country, so soon as this kind mother should feel it a duty, 
 " to extirpate heresy'''' out of the land 1 I 
 
 The doctrine is actually taught in her New Testament, in the notes 
 appended to the Rhemjsh version. I will give you a passage or two. 
 
 "And vvrien liis disciijles Jaiiits and John liad seen it, they said, l-oid wilt thou 
 we say that lire come down from heaven, and consume them? And turning, he 
 rebuked them, saying, you know not of wliat spirit you are." Luke ix.54, 55. 
 
 " V'er. 55. He rtbiik'ed Ittem. Ts'ot justice nor all rig;orous punishment of 
 sinners is h(re forbidden, Klias' fact reprehended, nor the cliuroh or chris- 
 tian princes blamed for putting heretics to death: but that none of these should 
 be done for desire of our particular revenge, or without discretion, and regard 
 to their amendment, and example to others. Therefore, Peter used his power 
 upon Ananias and Sapphira, when he struck them both down to death for dc- 
 ym'idiyi^ ihe churrh." Khein. N. Tf-t. p. 109. 
 
 This is a mistake. Peter struck not Ananias and Sapphira for dc- 
 
 {rauding the church, (as these purblind commentators say but the 
 ord himself struck them dead, for li/ing against the Holy Spirit. 
 Christian princes, thus, in reading the Roman Testament, are taught 
 to put heretics to death. 
 
 "An! iiiaiiy r,f them that liiul followed curious things, brought together their 
 books and burnt them before all; and counting the prices of them, they found the 
 money to be filly thousand pence." Acts xix. 19. 
 
 " Vcr. 19. Hooks. A christian man is bound to burn or deface all wicked books 
 of what sort soever, especially heretical books. VVhirh though they infect not 
 him always that keepelh them, vet bring forth coming, they ""^y be noisome 
 and peroH ions to other that shiill have them and rend them after his death, or 
 otherwise. Therefore hath the church taken order for condemning nil such 
 book', and agaiiiiit the reading of th<in where danger may ensue: and the chris- 
 tian emjieroi!-, f'onstantiiis, Magnus, Valenlinian, 'rheodosius, Marcian, Justin- 
 i:in, made penal laws for the burning or defacing them." lb. p. 207. 
 
 This f^roscription of hnrctical books is of the same spirit, a part of 
 the same system, and explains the march of papistical uniformity and 
 
 unity ! 
 
 " .\" we havr said before, no now I s»y again, if any evangrlirr to you, beside 
 that which vou have receive*!, be he anathema." (Inl. i. 9. 
 
 " Hierome useth this place, wherein the upostle givetli the curse, or ana- 
 thema to all false teachers, not once, but twice, to provi- that the real o( Catholic 
 men ought to be so great toward all hrretics, and their doctrin* s, that they 
 should give them the anathema, though they were nevr r so dear unto them. 
 In which case, snith this holy Doctor, I would not spare mine own psrenlt." Iil. 
 p. 292. 
 
 Thi.H is stronger Still. " T wdim) not sivmik mink own I•AItI:^TH !" 
 This is llif! spirit, the naked spirit of the system, pure nnd unmixed. 
 Remember, then, my fricndfl, that children ou^hl to inform agaioHi
 
 828 DEBATK O.N THE 
 
 their own parents, and brother against brother, for the extirpation of 
 heresy ! 
 
 " Anil I saw the woman drunken of the blood of the Saints and of the blood 
 of the inartvrs of Jesus." Rev. xvii. 6. 
 
 Ver. 6. Driniken of the blood. It is plain, tliat this woman signifieth the 
 whole corps of all the persecutors that have and shall shed so much blood of 
 the just : of the prophets, apostles, and other martyrs, from the beginning of 
 the world to the end. The I'rot'stants possibly expound it of Rome, for that 
 they put heretics to death, anil allow of their punishment in other countries : 
 But their blood is not called the blood of saints, no more than the blood of 
 thieves, mankdlers, and other malefactois: for the shedding of which by order 
 of justice, no commomocaltJi slinll answer." Id. [). 430. 
 
 No commonwealth, consequently no member of it, shall suffer for 
 killing heretics. If I have not sustained this proposition, 1 can prove 
 nothing. If these facts and documents can be set aside by rhetorical 
 declamation, or reckless denial ; then are history, and testimony, and 
 fact, of no value in controversy. 
 
 Another specification comes under this proposition. I have too many 
 of them for the occasion. I must be brief. This is the divorcing, re- 
 pelling, disorganizing, and demoralizing dogma, that " no faith should 
 be kept with heretics.''^ 
 
 Gregory VII., in a council at Rome, declares : 
 
 " We following the statutes of our preilecessors, do, by our apostolic author- 
 ity, absolve all those from their oath of fidelity, who are bound to excommvni- 
 cated persons, either by duty or oath; and we unloose them from every tie of 
 obedience, till the eNcomnmnicated persons have n)ade proper satisfaction." 
 Decret. 2 part. caus. 15. quest. 6. 
 
 Urban II. teaches the same doctrine : 
 
 " You are to discharge the soldiers who have sworn fidelity to count Hugo, 
 from paying any obedience while he is excommunicated : for they are not obliged 
 to keep that fidelity inviolate, which tt<'V have sworn to a christian prince, who 
 opposes God, and Ids saints, and desp.>i' s their precepts." Ibid. 
 
 Gregory IX. has laid down the general principle, with the greatest 
 care and precision : 
 
 "Be it known to all who are under the dominion of /lereiic*, that they are 
 get free from every tie ofjidtlilyand duty to them; all oaths or solemn agree- 
 ment to the contrary notwithslanding-." Decret. Greg. lib. 5, tit. 7. 
 
 Hear now the decree of the council of Constance, in the case of 
 John Huss, and Jerome of Prague ; who appeared there under the 
 solemn pledge of the imperial protection. 
 
 " Council of Constance, 1414, did solemnly decree that no faith is to be kept 
 with an heretic. The person who has given them the safe conduct to come 
 thither, shall not in this case be obliged to keep his promise by whatever tie he 
 may have been engaged, when h.e has done all that has been in his power to do." 
 Bruce. Free Thought, p. 120. 
 
 The council of Constance then, not only so decided ; but caused 
 those men, who appeared before them under an imperial pledge, to be 
 taken and burned. Thus faitli was not to be kept with heretics accord- 
 ing to said decree, and the practice under it by these " holy fathers V 
 
 To confirm the whole with the utmost brevity I would add, the ho- 
 ly, infallible, and last council of Trent formally recognized this de- 
 cree of the council of Constance. It is then the standing and unrepealed 
 doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, which must be as immutable 
 and infallible as the council of Trent, 
 
 Next we must notice the proscription of books as another specifi- 
 cation. 
 
 The council of Trent in its 25th session, decreed that a council 
 under the pope should draw up and publish an index of books which
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 329 
 
 Xvfere to be prohibited in the church. Thus commenced and keeping 
 pace with the introduction of liberal, or Protestant, or anti-Roman 
 Catholic volumes it has grown into a respectable volume ; so that 
 one of the finest libraries might be collected out of these proscribed 
 books. Among these is the bible, which is said to have been the 
 first prohibited in the council of Toloso. In the 4th of the 10 rules 
 concerning prohibited books established by the Holy Fathers of the 
 council of Trent, a license to read the bible is put into the control of 
 bishops and inquisitors. But he that presumes to " read without 
 such license cannot receive absolution of sins. '^ Amoug these prohib- 
 ited books also are those of Locke, Milton, Bacon, Grotius, Galileo, 
 Claude, Saurin, Sir Matthew Hale, Jeremy Taylor, Luther, Calvin, 
 Melapcthon, — and, indeed, all the standard Protestant authors. 
 
 Touching the liberty of the press, a decree of the 10th session of 
 the Lateran council A. D. 1215, even Leo X. presiding expresses the 
 Roman Catholic views of that chief root of the tree of liberty. The 
 decree of the Lateran council was sanctioned by Trent and is now the 
 orthodox faith of Rome. 
 
 " l}y oiclo)- ot" tlic holy couricil, we, in fine, ordain and decree, that no person 
 shall presume lo print, cr cause to be printed, an)|^ hook ov other writing whatso- 
 ever, either in our citv (lionit- ) or in any other cities and diocesfs, unless it. shall 
 first have been carffilly examined, if in this city, by out Vicar and tlie master of 
 the holy palace, or it" ui other cities and dioceses, by the bishop or his deputy, 
 with the inquisitor of heretical prnvilij for the diocese, in which the said impres- 
 sion is about to be made ; and unless also it shall have received, under their own 
 band, their written appro\al, jjiven without price and without dela)'. Whoso- 
 ever shall presume to do otherwise, besides the loss of the books, which shall 
 be publiciv burned, shall be bound by the sentence of excommunication." 
 Caranza, p. 670. 
 
 The council of Trent has also confirmed the doctrine of Leo X. 
 and his Lateran council of 1515. Their first rule concerning pro- 
 scribed books is : Jll books condemned hi/ the supreme pontiffs, or gen- 
 eral councils before the year 1515 and not comprised in the present index 
 are condemned." The creed of this said council of Trent moreover 
 compels every Roman Catholic "to receive undoubtedly, all thint^s 
 delivered, drjinrd, and dirland liij the sacred canons, and f^cneral councils 
 and partirularli/ hi/ llii- Holy council if Trent." 
 
 This church is as much opposed to the freedom of the press and 
 Free discussion, and the circulation of the bible, as ever she was; but 
 she has to yield n liltlr- id tiial irresistible innovator, called custom. 
 TStiJi however a Rfiman bishop canoot, as a good and liege suiijcct of 
 the pope, hut oppose, freedom of tlniiiirjit, speech and action in all 
 inatters reiigir)UH. liisten to tiie following little bull of tim bishop 
 of New York, published the other day against free discussion. 
 
 In <hi» do' urrieni liie t)iihop wrilt h, in hi» address lo the editor of the " Truth 
 TeHcr," — ^" Sir, 1 consider it n)y duty to reijuesl you to publish tlie following 
 copy <if my letter to the editor'of the " Catholic iViary," in order lo obviule ni 
 soon an piiKnitile, the misrhi'f \\\\\i:\\ »uch a Society, if rountenani:ed, niiglil pro- 
 duce. You know my oppoHilion t ^controversial disputes on religion, parlicular- 
 ly in dclmling Hoeii(ie!( or newspapers." 
 
 From the letter allu li^l to, we extract the following ; 
 
 "To the K'litiir of the Catholic Diary : — 
 
 In the Catholic Diary of SHlurdnv Inst. October 1, I find n notice from you, of 
 a Society, rnlliiig il«ell I'.ie New-York Calholir Soriety, for tin- pnimnlion of 
 religious knowledge. Of the •xistencr of that Soriety, I was utterly ignorant, 
 nnd feel surpri»i-d that you, wlm ought to know betl< r, »vould think of encour- 
 •ciiig and drawing public attention to such a socieiy, without firi>t nscrrlaininp 
 the sentiments of your Ordinary on so important a aubjecl. The Church w«cly 
 
 2 c 2 -n
 
 330 DEBATK ON THE 
 
 ordains that nothing; of thn nature of this society can bo rstublishcd wilhoat (Ii« 
 approbation of the Bishop of the Diocese, whcir it is inonnt to introduce it, and 
 that permitted, it should be governed hy such ruhsniid regulations as to bininiar 
 seem proper, for it obviously partaki s of the nature of a Theological school. 
 Far be it troni nie to impede the progress of religious knowledge ; nothing could 
 be more dear to my heart than to encourage whatever contributes eflectually to 
 its promotion ; but j)laced as 1 am, as a sentinel over the sacred ark of religion, 
 It is my imperative thify to prevent it from being touched by profane or unprac- 
 tised haruls. 
 
 So far from viewing this society in the light you see it, it is my decided con- 
 viction that it ought not to be sanctioned by me ; how c;ui it be supposed that 
 young men, whose education is chiefly mercantile or mechanical, can come with 
 sufficient preparation to the discuss-ion of a question that re(iuires vast erudition, 
 with a degree of research, which they cannot possess ; you cannot be ignorant 
 of the severe mental discipline to which students are subjected in our Theologi- 
 cal Seminaries, before they are allowed to commence the study of theology. 
 You knovv also that this study is regulated by experienced and able professors, 
 that young men are not allowed to grope their way with only their own feeble 
 light, tiirough the dark mazes of deceitful cavil, and infidel sophistry. 
 
 The members of this society, who thirst so much for religious knowledge, can 
 read our elementary works, and also, the masterly productions of JVlilner, I'letch- 
 er, Bossuet's history of the Variations, lately printed, and others, where they 
 are sure to find the tenets of our faith explained with a precision and elegance 
 that cannot fail to satisfy the sincere inquirer after truth. The precision of 
 ideas," and elegance of expression in the imparting of religious knowledge, their 
 preamble sets forth to be the main objects of this society, and it covers tne desire 
 and intention of acquiring that species of tact and dexterity in theological de- 
 bate, which would enable them to follow into the arena the fanatics of the 
 day. All this I must condemn as well as a jiublication of the crude essays of 
 tyros anion^ us. Let us dispute less and practice more. 
 
 The church in the most positive manner prohibits all laymen from entering 
 into dispute on points of religion with sectarians, " inhibeinus,"' says Pope Alex- 
 ander IV., "neunquam Laicae Personie liceat publice vel private de fide Catholi- 
 ca disputare ; qui vere contradicerit, Excomniuiiicationis laqueo innodetur."* 
 Had you recollected this sentence, I am sure you would be far from calling on 
 the Catholic young men of this city to beconu' members of a debating society 
 on religious subjects, open to so many serious objections. 
 
 " t .J<Jim, Bishop of New- York." 
 
 After having read you a bishop^s bull against " The New York 
 Catholic society for the promotion of religious knowledge," I will, 
 while on this subject, read you also a bishnj/s curse against a refrac- 
 tory priest in Philadelphia. I quote it from one of the News-papers 
 of that day. It happened some twelve or fifteen years ago. 1 have 
 several such cases in the books around me : but they are some two or 
 three centuries old, and in foreign countries ; and therefore, I select this 
 modern one which is almost a copy of them, because a little acclimated. 
 
 [P'rom (I Phitadelplna Paper.] We have at length obtained a correct cony 
 of the excommunicHtio'ii of William Hogan, Pastor of St. Mary's Church, of tnia 
 city. It is as follows: 
 
 By the authority of God Almighty, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and the 
 undefiled Virgin iVlarv, mother and ])atrones8 of our Savior, and of all celes- 
 tial virtues, Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominions, Powers, Cherubims and 
 Serapliims; and of all the Holy Patriarchs, Prophets, and of all the Apostles and 
 Evangelists of the Holy Innocents, who, in the sight of the Holy Lamb are 
 found worthy to sing the new song of the Holy Martyrs and Holy Confessors, 
 and of all the Holy Virgins, and of all Saints, together with the Holy Elect of 
 God — may he, William Hogan, be damned. 
 
 W^e excommunicate and anathematize him, and from the threshold of the Holy 
 Church of God Almighty, we sequester him, that he may be tormented, disposed 
 
 •The English of which £«W is :—" The Church prohibits Inytncn, cither publicly or 
 privately, from arguing on subjects npportaiiiing to the Catholic tailh, and whosoever aball 
 violate ihia prohibition, let him be bound with the cord of ^Excommunication."
 
 RO>IAN CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 331 
 
 and be delivered over with Athan and Abiranx, and with those who say unto the 
 Lord, " depart from us for we desire none of thj wa^'s ;'" as a fire is quenched with 
 water, so let the light of him be put out forevermore, unless it shall repent him, 
 aad make satisfaction. Amen! 
 
 May the Father, who created man, curse him! May the Son, who suftered for 
 us, curse him! May the Holy Ghost, who suffered for us in baptism, curse him! 
 May the Holy Cross which Christ for our salvation, triumphing over his enemies, 
 ascended, curse him! 
 
 May the Holy and Eternal \"irgiii Mary, mother of God, curse him ! May St. Mi- 
 chael,' the Advocate of the Holy Souls, curse him. May all the angels, principali- 
 ties, and powers, and all heavenly armies, curse him! 
 
 May the praiseworthy multitude of Patriarchs, and Prophets, curse him! 
 May St. John the Precursor, and St. John the Baptist, and St. Peter, and St. 
 Paul, and St. Andrew, and all other of Christ's Apostles together, curse him ! and 
 may the rest of our Disciples and Evangelists, who by their preaching converted 
 the universe, and the holy and wonderful company of Martyrs ana Confessor, 
 who by their holy works are found pleasing to God Almighty. May the holy 
 choir of the Holy Virgins, who for the honor of Christ have despised the things 
 of the world, damn him I May all the saints from the beginning of the world 
 to everlasting ages, who are found to be beloved of God, damn him! 
 
 May he be damned wherever he be, whether in the house or in the stable, the 
 garden or the field, or the highways; or in the woods, or in the waters, or in the 
 church; may he be cursed in living and in dying! 
 
 May he be cursed in eating and in drinking, in being hungry, in being thirsty, 
 in fasting, in sleeping, in slumbering, and in sitting, in livmg, in working, id 
 resting and blood letting! 
 
 May he be cursed in all the faculties of his body . 
 
 May he be cursed inwanllv and outwardly; may he be cursed in his brains 
 and in his vertex, in his tcmijles, in his eye-brows, in his cheeks, in his jaw bones, 
 in his nostrils, in his teeth aud grinders, In his lips, in his throat, in his shoulders, 
 in his arms, in his fingers. 
 
 May he be damned in his mouth, in his breasts, in his heart and purtenance, 
 down to the very stomach ! 
 
 May he be cursed in his reins and in bis groins; in his thighs, in his genitals 
 and in his hips, and his knees, his leg^ and feet, and toe nails! 
 
 May he be cursed in all his joints, and articulation of the members; from the 
 crown of his head to the sole of his feet, may there be no soundness. 
 
 May the Son of the living God, with all the glory of his luaj^esty, curse him! 
 And may heaven with all the powers that move therein, rise up against him and 
 curse and damn him; unless he repent and make satisfaction! 
 Jtmtn. So be it. fie it so. .■Irnen. 
 
 Ridiculous as this may appear — lauprhable or profane ; it is never- 
 theless, but the echo of otic of the oni- hundred aualhemas com- 
 manded in the council of Trent — one of the greater excoiunuinications 
 due to an obstinate heretic. 
 
 As still more indicative of tht; present views and feelings of the 
 Roman see, on the subject of civil and relijjious liberty, I shall give 
 you a few more extracts. I had laid olT several niodern documents 
 of much point, and bearing on ibis proposition; but unfortunately, 
 they were misplaced in my library, and I find them missing among the 
 books I have brought with me. I liold in my hand, however, a little 
 work in which I find some of them. This little v<<liiiiie containing 
 " Dr. Heecjicr's Pica for tlu^ West," ought to be in every family, and 
 read by every adult in tlw great valley, who feels any interest in the 
 preservation of our free- and hap])y institutions. I wish I had time to 
 read much of it. I can only read a few passages of the documentary 
 data which it contains : 
 
 I am about to read from firegory XVI. the present successor of I'c- 
 tcr, under daU: of lft.12, the prescnl faith of Hr)man Catholics on tlie 
 subject of conscience, and liberty «if the press. 
 
 "Kroni thi« (lollutcd fountani of indifference, llowi that absurd and erroneous
 
 33'2 DERATE ON THE 
 
 doctrine, or rather raving;, in favor and ilefoncc of' liberty of conscience,' for 
 nliich MTOst pestilential error, tlio course is opened for tliat entire and wild lib- 
 erty of opinion, which is every where atteniplin^ the overthrow of religious and 
 civil institutions; and which the unblushiiij;- impudence of some has held forth 
 as an advantage to religion. Hence llial pisl, (if all others most to he dreaded 
 in a stale, itiibridleJ lihei-ly of opinion, WrMuUou^ness of speech, and lust of no- 
 velty, which, according to tlie experience of all ages, portend the downfall of 
 the most powerful ami llourisliiiig <inpircs. " Hither tends that worst and ne- 
 ver suthcuntly to be execrated and detested Ulil.llTY of THE I'llKSS for the dif- 
 fusion of all manner of writings, which some so loiully contend lor, and so ac- 
 tively proiiiotf'." p. 121. 
 
 This so fresh from Rome, stamped with the seal of infallibility, 
 •without another word, sustains that specification in my proposition 
 relating to the anti-American spirit and genius of the grand elements 
 of popery. 
 
 But continues he on the aubjoct of unlicensed books : 
 
 "Ao means must bt" here oiiiitl(cl, says t7i;;nt'n/ XHl., our predecessor of 
 happy memory, in the l'2nc> clical Letter on the proscription of bad books — 'no 
 means must be here omitted,' as tiie extremity of the case calls for all our exer- 
 tions, to exterminnle the fnlitl pcsf which spreads througli so many works; nor 
 can the materials of error be otherivise destroyed than by the flames, which con- 
 sume the depraved eh incuts of the e\il." 
 
 The secretary of the court of Vienna and counsellor of legation — I 
 mean Frederick Schlcgel, who, in 1828, lectured on the philosophy 
 of history in favor of monarchy and popery — one supreme bishop, and 
 one supreme monarch — who was one of the Ausl^rian cabinet, Ike con- 
 fidential counsellur of Prince Melternich — whose policy and opinions 
 opened the way for Austrian efforts on the foundation of St. Leopold, 
 to add America to the pope's dominions — I say, of this great man and 
 his opinions, the author of a foreign conspiracy, as quoted by Doctor 
 Beecher, thus speaks : 
 
 "In the year 1828 the ceiebnitcd f'rederick .S(hlegel, one of the most dis- 
 tingiiishtd literary men oflMiro|)e, delivered lectures at Vienna, on the philoso- 
 phy of history, (which have not been translated into Knglish) a great object of 
 which is to show themntval support tehich popery and monarcliy derive from 
 each other. He commends the two .systems in connexion as deserving of uni- 
 versal reception. He attempts to prove that the sciences, and arts, and all the 
 pursuits of man, as an intellectual being, are best promoted under this perfect 
 system of church and state: a pope at the head of the former; an emperor at the 
 head of the latter. He contrasts with this, the system of Protestantism; repre- 
 sents Protestantism as the enemy of good government, as the ally of republican- 
 ism, as the parent of the distresses of Europe, as the cause of all the disorders 
 with which legitimate governments are afflicted. In the close of lecture 17th, 
 Vol. H. p. 286, he thus speaks of this country: The TRUE NURSERV of all 
 these destructive principles, the revolutionary sclioolfor France and the rest of 
 Europe, has been JVorlh America. Thence the evil has spread over many other 
 lanils, either by ruilural contagion, or by arbitrary communication. lb. p. 122, 
 12.3. 
 
 Such are the popular views of our institutions in the best and purest 
 church district in the world : and the emigrants of that country with 
 those opinions are daily crowding to our shores, and filling up this 
 immense valley. These are they who are taught to execrate the lib- 
 erty of the press, and to consider liberty of conscience pestilential er- 
 ror, and that a spiritual monarch, and a political emperor are the very 
 paragon of all e.vcellence in church and state. Is this compatible with 
 the genius of our institutions? Are not such views and reasonings, 
 posilivelij subversive ff them? 
 
 Let nie observe from that book of Fessenden's of which my oppo- 
 nent seemed to know so much yesterday : but the author of which he
 
 H05IAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOIT. 333 
 
 cannot now name, as I believe, (if he can, however, he may tell us 
 something about him) — I say from the Encyclopedia of Religious 
 Knowledge, and from some other documents before me, I would wish 
 to read a few statements, to show that this said Roman Catholic In- 
 stitution, chameleon like, first acconunodates itself to the customs of 
 every country, and seems to inhale and exhale the popular atmosphere 
 until it reaches its end ; (for well the Jesuit knov.s the means may be 
 infinitely various, while the end is one and immutable,) and so soon as 
 it gains the fulcrum of popular opinion and the lever of the majority, 
 it builds up an empire, after the model of the Prince Metternich. This 
 has hitherto been its history, in every climate, and country, and age. 
 A single example of this policy, taken from the Encyclopedia, must 
 suffice : 
 
 " Various attctnpts have been made to biiiig- this church under the papal yoke; 
 but without success. Tlie Portuguese liaviiig opened a passage into Abyssinia in 
 the fifteenth century, an emissary was sent to exttnci t'le influence and authority 
 of the Roman pontifl", clothed with the title of patriarch of the Abyssinians. The 
 same important connuissiou was afterwards given to several Jesuits, when some 
 circumstances seemed to promise fluin a successful and happy ministry; but the 
 Ab^'sslnians stood so firm to the faith of their ancestors, that towards the close of 
 the sixteenth century the Jesuits had lost nearly all hope in that quarter. 
 
 About the beginning of the seventeenth century the Portuguese lesuits renew- 
 ed the mission to Abyssinia, when the emperor created one of them patiiarch; 
 and not only swore allegiance to the Roman pontil), but also obliged his subjects 
 to forsake the rites and tenets of their ancestors, and to embrace the doctrine and 
 worship of the Romish church. At length the emperor became so exasperated 
 at the arrogant and violent proceedings of the patriarch in subverting the es- 
 tablished customs of the empire, for the purpose of confirnn'ng the pope's au- 
 thority, especially in imposing celibacy on some, and requiring divorce of others, 
 who had married more than one wife, that he annulled the orders formerly given 
 in favor of popery, baniihed the missionaries out of his dominions, and treated 
 with the utmost severity all who had any connexion with tlic undertaking. From 
 this period the very name of Rome, its religion, and its pontitl, have all along 
 been objects of peculiar aversion among the Abyssinians." — Encyc. Relig. 
 Knowl. p. 22. 
 
 Thus have the Jesuits done in every country, and this will they do 
 — first ingratiate themselves with the peoph;, and wlien they think 
 thr'y are secure of their object, they will jirocc^ed to subvert the gov- 
 ernment : for they are sworn and sold to tlie pop(! forever. 
 
 The gentleman says, We are both foreigners ; indicating that we 
 have equal rights and privileges. I did not use that term in an invi- 
 dious sense, when speaking of my willingness to receive foreignt^ra. 
 Nor do I oppose the princi|iles of my opponent, because of their hos- 
 tility to Protestants only : hut becaiis(! of thi-ir hostility to Roman 
 Catholics. It is from my views of the political and religious hear- 
 ings, the ttwriporal and the eternal conscfjuences of the system, that I 
 expose and oppose it. As a philanlhrojijsl, I am o|)poser! to the |)apal 
 empire;, whether at home or abroad — in lOurope or America. 
 
 But aiihoiiifli {lolilieally considered, in (>u>: sense, we both may be 
 calle<l foreigners ; yet, we are not foreigners in tin; same sense. I 
 claim a very intimate relation with the Protestant family. I am one 
 of that family. It was then my family, that first seilled this country. 
 The bishop's family settled Roman Catholic America. He is ;rfor- 
 eitrner here, as I would be a' foreigner in .Mexico or South America. I 
 belong to the [)erseculed — he to thn persecutors of that family. 
 
 In the next phce, I never took but one oath of allctriance. I lu^ver 
 vowed to support but one political constitution. My opponcul first
 
 334 DEBATK ON THE 
 
 Bwore to America and then to Rome. He is bound to a foreign prince: 
 I am not. If that prince slioiild reward liim for any service with a 
 Cardinal's cap, he mifjht be commanded away to Rome next week. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. No, 1 will not leave this country. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. The gentleman is under the " Holy Lord the 
 pope." I am not a foreigner in this sense. 
 
 But still better, I am the father of a family : my children are native 
 Americans : and through these I am more a kin to the great Ameri- 
 can family than he ever can be. Without perjury or apostacy from 
 his office, he can never have a wife, nor family. He is a stranger to 
 those near and holy relations. He has no country — no home. He 
 lives and he must die under the command of foreign superiors; and 
 they may, by authority or promotion, remove him to Europe or Asia at 
 pleasure. For these and other reasons I am identified with Protestant 
 America, and claim a relation here to which his heart shall ever be a 
 stranger. — [Time expired.] 
 
 Half past 1 oVlock, Jl. M. 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 Another instance of the unfairness with which Catholic principles 
 are represented : another occasion for a holy triumph ! 
 
 That Rhemish Testament, from which the gentleman has just now 
 read, was never sanctioi»ed by the Catholic church. It was published 
 by a caucus of parsons in New York, (whose names are prefixed to it,) 
 for the express purpose of vilifying^ the faith, and outraging the feel- 
 ings of Catholics ! And this is called a Catholic bible ! Good God ! 
 whither has justice fled 1 Archbishop Murray, of Dublin, has lately, 
 in the most solemn manner, condemned these notes. They are not to 
 be found in the Catholic bible, used in this or in any other country. I 
 am laboring to inspire my opponent with sentiments of self-respect; 
 and assure him anew, that " evil communicaiinn corrupts good man- 
 ners.^^ The occasion called for original documents, candid statements, 
 and reputable authorities ; but, instead of these, the public are mocked 
 by my friend with spurious, garbled extracts, which a dignified con- 
 troversialist would have treated with contempt. We repudiate the 
 notes, which Protestants have appended, /or us, to this bible. 
 
 Mr. Campbell. — Produce another. 
 
 Bishop Pubcell. — I will. Behold it. Here is the bible to be 
 found in every book-store, where Catholic works are for sale. Here 
 is Luke, chap. ix. 55 ! Not a word of it there! (Holds it opened, 
 towards the audience, and towards Mr. Campbell.) 
 
 You perceive, that I have granted my opponent, all the extra time 
 he chose to occupy, to explain away, if he could, the mis-translation 
 (to call it by the very mildest name) of Liguori ; and he has just left 
 it where he found it, in the mire of infamy ! The edition which I ex- 
 hibit, was published in the very year and the very place with the edi- 
 tion, from which Mr. Smith pretends to have quoted. You have 
 heard Mr. Kinmont. 
 
 The gentleman has cited the words of Christ, " Do this in commem- 
 oration of me," against the real presence. This is all I wanted, to 
 complete my argument. Here is the answer : 
 
 " After having proposed the sentiments of the church upon these ■words," this is 
 my body," we must tell what she thinks of these others, which Christ added : "io 
 this in memory of me." It is clear that the intention of the Son of God is to
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION, 335 
 
 oblige us by these words to reuieinber the death whicli he suffered for our sakes: 
 and St. Paul concludes, from these same words, that we aniiouui'e, in this nivste- 
 ry, the death of the Lord. But it must not be imagined that this remembrance 
 of his death, excludes the real presence of his body; on the contrary, by only 
 considering what has been just now explained, it will fully a|)])ear that this com- 
 memoration is founded upon the real presence. For astiie Jews, in eating their 
 peace oflerings, remembered that thev had been sacrificed for them, so we, \a 
 eating the Hesh of Jesus Christ, our victim, should remember that he had been 
 iiiirnolated for us. It is therefore this same flesh eaten by the faithful, which not 
 only awakes in us the memory of his inuDnlation, but which confirms to us the 
 truth of it. And far from being able' to say that this solemn commemoration 
 which Jesus Christ orders us to make, excludes the presence of the fltsh, it is 
 visible, on the contrary, that this tender recollection, which he wills we should ■ 
 have ol him, in the holy communion, as immolated for us, is founded upon the 
 real receiving of this same fl<sh ; it being surely impossible to I'orget, that it is for 
 us he hath given his body in sacrilicc, when we see that he gives us still every 
 day this victim fjr our food." 
 
 I now come to the subject of puroratory, which my friend calls the 
 lever of the pope, to raise liie world. I should be g^lad to see the 
 pope raist the world in any way. If he has not the power to raise 
 mortals to the skies, he, at least, wants the will to pull men or angels 
 down. The doctrine of purgatory can be proved by a few plain texts. 
 The first is from '2d Machabees, xii. 42; where we read, that the val- 
 iant Machabeus sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem, 
 for sacrifice, to be offered for the souls of the dead. " It is, ihvrefore, 
 sayt Ihe scripture, a hiiiy nnd a whulesmne thought to pray for the dead, 
 thai they tnay be Iwmedfrom their ginn." 
 
 My friend will say, the book of Machabees is not canonical. But, 
 is it not, as Du Pin would say, very ill done of him, to reject a hook 
 of scrij)ture, because it pinches him. This is a fine way of confuting 
 Catholics: to mutilate the scripture when it favors our doctrine; to 
 believe our enemies, when they misrepresent it; and to attribute to, 
 and force upon us, doctrines which we do not profess. 
 
 The books of the Machabees arc to be found in the Codex Alexan- 
 drinus, and in all the approved bibles of (he Catholic church, from the 
 beginning. Why tear them, at this late day, from the canon? Be- 
 sidcB, they are, at least, authentic history, and, as such, faithful rec- 
 ords of the belief of the only people who, at the tin)e when they were 
 written, professed the triu^ faith. 
 
 JesuB Christ says, that there is a blasphemy against the Spirit; 
 which is a sin that will not he forgiven, neither in this world, nor in 
 that which is to come. (Matt. xii. 22.) These words clearly imply 
 that some sins ivill be forgiven in the world to come. Where ? Not 
 in heaven, which " nothing defiled can enter;" not in hell, for out of 
 hell. there is no redem|)tion. What is that place, called .'ll>riihiiin^s 
 bosom, on which lia/arus reposed, until hr^aven was opened to the 
 souls of men, by the death of Jesus Christ? Was it heaven, or hell, 
 or that intermediaU; place or stale, which Catholics call by the name 
 of purgatory T It is tnccfisarily the latter: apart from the suflering of 
 sense by purifying fire, it wrjujd \h; a stale i\\' mmtil or s|>iritnal suf- 
 fering : as it was one of separation from (Jod, whose beauty the soul, 
 released from the prison of the body, and tin- darkness of sin and ig- 
 norance, 80 clearly discernK, and so ardently desires to etijoy. The 
 Savior tells us to be reconciled (juickly with our adversary, while wo 
 are in the way : lest we be delivered over to the judge, and cast into 
 prison, whence we shall not be released, until wc shall have paid the
 
 836 DEBATE OX Till! 
 
 / 
 
 last farthing. (Matt. v. 26.) What prison is this] What place of 
 
 sorrowful detention on Ihc way to hcavcn/ij ghri/? Neither heaven, 
 
 nor the abode of everlasting torments: conscquentlj', purgatory. 
 
 " C/irinl (lied for our sins" says .St. Peter, (Isl Kpist. iii. 18,) " 6e- 
 
 ing put to death in the Jltsfi, but enlivened in the spirit : in which also 
 
 coming, he preached to tho.tc spirits that were in prison." This is the 
 
 J lace, of which it is said, in the apostles' creed, "//c rfcsce/irfec/ en/o 
 t//;" which was surely not the hell of the damned, but that tempo- 
 rary hell, or hades, or purgatory, to whose inmates he announced the 
 joyful tidings of their deliverance, where the first and the second 
 Adam met, the type and reality. What is the meaning of the univer- 
 sally prevalent practice, of which St. Paul speaks, of performinor 
 pious works, called baptisms for the dead : " E/se ivhat shall they do 
 who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at (ill. IVhy are they 
 then baptized for them ?" (1st Cor. xv. 23.) 
 
 " Hence, the council of Trent teaches: " That there is a purgatory, and that 
 the souls detained there, are helped b_\ the prayers of the faithful, and particu- 
 larly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar." 
 
 St. Cyril of Jerusalem, l^usebius, St. Jlpiphanius, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome. St. 
 Augustine, and several othii- ancient fatliers antl writers, demonstrate, ttiat the 
 doctrine of the church was always, and is now the same, as that which was de- 
 fined by the council of Trent, witli respect both to prayers for the dead, and an 
 intermediate state, which we call purgatory. How express is the authority of 
 tlie last named father, where he says: " through the prayers and sacrifices ottbe 
 church and alms-deeds, God deals more mercifully with the departed than their 
 sins deserve." Serni. 172. Enchirid. cap. 109, 110. 
 
 St. Chrysostom, who flourished within three hundred years of the age of the 
 apostles, and nmst be admitted as an unexceptionable witness of their doctrine 
 and practice, writes as follows: "It was not without good reason ordained by 
 ttie apostles, that mention should be made of tlie dead in the tremendous mys- 
 teries, because they knew well that these would receive great benefit from it." 
 In Cap. i. Philip. Hom. 3. Tertullian, who lived in the age next to that of the 
 apostles, speaking of a pious widow, says: " She prays for the soul of her hus- 
 band, and begs refreshment for him." L. De Monogam. c. 10. St. Cyprian, 
 who lived in the following age. says: " It is one thing to be waiting for pardon; 
 another to attain to glory: one thing to be sent to prison, not to go from thence 
 till the last farthing is paid ; another to receive immediately the reward of faith 
 and virtue: one thing to suffer lengthened torments for sin, and to be chastised 
 and purified for a long time in that fire; another to have cleansed away all sin 
 by suffering." S. Cypr. L. 4. Ep. 2. 
 
 The doctrine of the oriental churches agrees with that oi the Catholic church, 
 in the only two points defined by her, namely, as to there being a middle state, 
 which we call purgatory, and as to the souls, detained in it, being helped by the 
 prayers of the living faithful. True it is, they do not generally believe, that 
 these souls are punished by a material fire; but neither does the Catholic church 
 require a belief of this opinion. On some occasions, Luther admits of purgatory, 
 as an article founded on scripture. Melanctlion confesses that the ancients pray- 
 ed for the dead, and says that the Lutherans do not find fault with it. Calvin 
 intimates, that the souls of all the just are detained in Abraham's bosom until the 
 day of judgment. In the first liturgy of the: church of England, there is an ex- 
 press prayer for the departed, that "tiod would grant them mercy and everlast- 
 ing peace." Collier's Eccl. Hist. Vol. II. p. 257. 
 
 Bishops Andrews, Usher, Montague, Taylor, Eorbes, Sheldon, Barrow of St. 
 Asaph's, and Hlandford, all believed that ttie dead ought to be prayed for. To 
 these, I may add, the religious Dr. Johnson, whose published Meditations prove, 
 that he constantly prayed for his deceased wife." 
 The Universalists make hell a purgatory. 
 
 The notion, that this doctrine fills the pope's coffers with gold, is 
 too ridiculous to be refuted! Every Catholic knows its absurdity. 
 As to the inlenlioa of the priest, about which the gentleman has found
 
 B03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 337 
 
 SO much to say, that is no difficulty. How do we judge of the inten- 
 tion ] Simply, by the act, the surest evidence of its existence. Can 
 we ask if a man has any intontion to eat his dinner, when we see him, 
 sit down to table, take his knife and fork, use them, and eat till he is 
 filled ; so when we see the priest docs what every priest does, and 
 the faithful people know that he ougiit to do, we have the best evi- 
 dence of his intention. Besides, what motive could he have for such 
 a jrratuitous violation of the law of God and profanation of a sacra- 
 ment. JS'emo rcpente pcssimus is an old and a true maxim. He would 
 fall into other excesses, first, and be suspended — God will not aban- 
 don his church ; and the sincere christian will always be rewarded by 
 him, accordinjT to iiis deserts. No man goes suddenly, &c. see Secreta 
 Monita. It was placed invidiously among the rubbish by the enemies 
 of the Jesuits, if found amid the ruins of their house, as the whole 
 society repudiated it. 
 
 Every learned and sound critic, who is at all honorable, denounces 
 the imposition — It is an old trick. 
 
 Ovid in his 13th book, verse 59, 60, suggests the idea, in speak- 
 ing of Ulysses' treachery, when he first had gold hid in the tent of 
 Palamedes and then denounced him for having been bribed by the 
 enemies of Greece. 
 
 •' Fictutnque probavit 
 " Criin. ;i, ( t oslcn lit (jU )cl )a;ii pr.rfoderat aiirutn." 
 
 Shall I invent calumnies, when run out of proof of any man's dishon- 
 esty? God forbid ! ^\ hat virtuous and immaculate family may not be 
 thus assailed ? And the more virtuous and honorable they are, the 
 more will they be disconcerted and overwhelmed, for the moment; 
 but the more complete will be their own vindication and their slander- 
 ers' disgrace in the end. 
 
 The gentleman caimot get over what he said of Washington and 
 our Hevolulionary heroes, " \.\\k fatal shaft is sticking in his side." 
 
 God has given to the people, neither too much, nor too little power. 
 He has given them no spiritual authority ; for as Jesus Christ said to 
 his apostles, so may the priest say to his flock : " You have not cho- 
 sen me." " No one durst assume the office of priest, but he that is call- 
 ed to it, a.1 Jirtrnti ir«,i" — and he was not called by the people. In 
 the Catholic church we solemnly appeal to the people for testimony 
 for, or against, a candidate for holy orders. God has given the peo- 
 ple reiuonabln |)ower, in teinpfiral matters, and revolutions have too 
 often shown tlnir evils and calaniilies, in the most horrid and brutal 
 excesses and the loss of innumerable lives. This is an awful penalty 
 for the rash exercise of tem|)oral j)ower on the part of the people. Our 
 own revolution was, perhaps, the calmest, the most temperate, the 
 least abused for evil purposes by wicked man, because we had a 
 "Washiniiton and kindred spirits to direct the 8tf)rm. 'I'hese, my wor- 
 thy friend rails perjurers ! Ah (Jod has restricted the people, he haa 
 also restricted their rulers, in their exercise of power. How many 
 terribli; lessons have not kings been taught, for its abuse. Why can- 
 not nations unite to select a common umpire; to whom all disputes 
 should l(c; referred, atid thus the rrimes of kings, and revolution, 
 with all its arcompanying horrors, by the peiiple, extinguished in the 
 bud. 
 
 I do not undertake to deft nd the popes in their use of the deposing 
 power — and were my voice, at this moment, ringing in tho Vatican, 
 2D 4J
 
 333 DEB ATE 0.^ TJIK 
 
 instead of the Baptist church, Sycamore street, Cincimiati, 1 should 
 not be reproved. There are in the religious, as well as in the spiri- 
 tual world, two forces, liie centripetal, and the cenlrifiif;al. The see 
 of Rome i%as the sun and centre of the system, to which all the pla- 
 nets, revolving in beauteous harmony, tend. We bless, we love, we seek 
 with ardor, by a kind of religious instinct, strong as the laws of gravita- 
 tion, this common centre, which gives us all, our proper impetus and 
 coherency. But like the planets, we arc not absorbed by it. We 
 know its excellence, its usefulness, its destination, its limits. 
 
 Now, to show you what our sentiments are, with regard to the tem- 
 poral power of the pope, here is a standard work, the identical text- 
 book of theology, which I studied in Paris many years ago. The au- 
 thor is still living, and instead of being rebuked for what I am going 
 to say, he has, on the contrary, been made bishop of Mans, in France. 
 Mis name is Bouvier, and he is as j)ious a christian as he is a sound 
 divine. I read you evidence from scripture, tradition and reason, in 
 favor of the doctrine which is the burden of the proposition, viz. that 
 ♦» the pope has no right, direct, or indirect, by any divine commission, 
 to the temporalities of kings or other Christians." When was the 
 deposing power first claimed by the pope 1 Ecclesiastical history 
 answers, in the 10th century. Then by the rule which I have alrea- 
 dy laid down, it is no part of Catholic doctrine. It came a thousand 
 years too late. 
 
 '• Proposition. That the Roman PontiiT does not possess, by divhie right, any 
 power, either direct or indirect, over the temporalities of i<ing?,or other chris- 
 tians." This proposition is proved 1st, from the sacred scripture: "As the Pa- 
 ther sent me, I also se7id you, (John xx. 21.) The .Son of man hath not where 
 to lay his head, (Mat. viii. 20.) Who hath made me a judge, or a divider over 
 ou.?" (Luke xii. 14.) Hence we may reason thus. The sovereign Pontiff can 
 ave no authority over the temporal goods of men by divine right, unless it be 
 granted to liim by Christ, but he has received no such power from Christ, for 
 Christ gave to no man a power, which, he liiinself, when on earth, did not pos- 
 sess; but Christ when on earth possessed no such power, relating to temporal mat- 
 ters, as appears both from his poverty, and from these words of his, " u)/io hath 
 made me a judge or a divider over you." Therefore the Roman Pontift does not 
 possess, by divine authority, any power, &c. 
 
 Besides, Christ expressly declared that he was a king, but at the same time, he 
 positively denied that his kingdom was of this world, (John xviii. 36.) For this 
 purpose I came into the world, he says, that I might bear testimony to the truth: 
 in another place he ordered to give to C(esar the things that belong to Cmsar, 
 (Mat. xxii. 21.) By a miracle, he caused the stater to be found in the mouth of a 
 fish, that the tribute might be paid for himself and Peter, (Matt. xvii. 27;) and 
 surely he could not shew, in more express terms, that he did not wish to exer- 
 cise any temporal authority. Furthermore, wlien he sent his apostles, he, by no 
 means, spoke to tlieni, concerning temporal afl'airs, or any political authority, 
 but only of the keys of the kingdom of' heaven, and the power of binding and 
 loosing; he ordered that, going through the entire world, they woulfl leach 
 these things which he commanded them; he announced to them many tribula- 
 tions of every sort, and even death; he commanded them, to advise and reprove 
 those, who transgress, but that they should not punish them, unless by spiritual 
 pains: If he will nut hear the church, says he, let him be to thee, as the heathen 
 anil the publican, (Matt, xviii, 17.): he tluit believeth not, shall be condemned, 
 (.Mark xvi. 16.) The apostles, in like manner, far from exercising any tempo- 
 ral power, on the contrary, strongly reconmiended obedience and respect to all 
 Pagan princes and persecutors, and rulers sent by them. 
 
 It can be proved, 2nd. from tradition. We would be tedious, were we to re- 
 hearse all the testimonies of Fathers, Doctors and chief bishops, who by their 
 word and example clearly taught, that the civil power was entirely indepen- 
 dent of the ecclesiastical. 
 
 TertuHian in his Apologetic, chap. 30, says: "They, (the christiani) know. 
 
 I
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC EELIOION. 339 
 
 who hath given power to emperors they know that it was God, alone, in 
 
 whose power they are, to whom, they are second, and after whom tliey are first 
 
 an emperor has his authority, from him by wliom he was created man, 
 
 before bein^ emperor. He receives power from him, from whom also lie receiv- 
 ed the breath of life IFe pray for all emperors." All chri>tiai)s, imbued with 
 
 this doctrine, opposed the arms of patience alone, to the most unjust and 
 most cruel tortures, for more than three hundred years. 
 
 Osius, bishop of Cordova, writes thus to the emperor Constantius, who favor- 
 ed the Arians. " Do you not interfere with ecclesiastical matters," as already 
 quoted. 
 
 Pope Gelasius, in his epistle 8th to Anastasius, a violent enemy of Catholics, 
 says, " There are two things, O emperor Augustus, by which principally, this 
 world is governed, the sacred autlionty of the popes, and the authority of kings. 
 (Labbe ti)m. 4. page 1122.) This pope, therefore, considered that each power 
 was independent of the other. 
 
 ]t can be proved, .")d. By theological reasoning. 1. That opinion ought to be 
 rejected, which was entirely unheard of during the ten first ages; but that opin- 
 ion which holds that the chief bishop has any just right even^indirect, over tlie 
 temporal possessions of princes, or other christians, was, by no means, heard of 
 during the ten first ages, to wit, down to the lime of Gregory VII. who in the year 
 1080, attempted to depose Henry IV. and disturljetl the peaceof the entire world, 
 by the assertion of this novel rigiit. Therefore that opinion should be rejected, kc. 
 
 2. That opinion should be entirely rejected which would occasion most 
 grievous evils, but the o])inion which we oppose, gives, &:c. 1. It renders harmo- 
 ny between the priesthood, and the sovereign power, impossible. 2. It would 
 prevent infidel princes from embracing the christian religion, and heretics from 
 returning to the true church. 3. It would aflord a necessary occasion for con- 
 tinual wars, if it were practised, which, experience has already tooclearly shewn. 
 Therefore, it should be entirely r(jected,&c. ^c. &c. 
 
 Now see here the scholastic method of proving propositions, and 
 an admirable one it is. We say Isl, scripture leaches it, — 2nd, anti- 
 quity corroborates it, — 3d, rea.«ion confirms it. That is the method 
 we follow, in all our schools. This is the solid, and irrefutable man- 
 ner in which this proposition is laid down and eslablislird. Docs this 
 look like submillinir to the dictation of the pope in teni])oral matters'? 
 Did the English ('atholics oiiey the j)retcndc(i absolution hull ? Did 
 not Catholics under arms, and with arms, as in the case of Julius II. 
 resist their acknowledged, and in his pro|)er sphere, respected Pon- 
 tiff! Did they not tin his hands while they kissed his feet 1 
 
 Waddinpton tells us that when Louis XII. of France quarreled 
 with the pope, he called a council of hisho|)s at Tours, and proposed 
 the question, whether he could detain the pope, as his prisoner, on an 
 occasion, which he described. They gave an afTiriiiative answer. 
 This, in addition to what 1 have said, shows how the distinction of 
 
 1)ower, and of rights, was undcrstdtjd at that period, and every epoch, 
 )ack to the apo8tf>lic ages. 
 
 My friend asks for a disclaimer of these pretensions, on the i)art 
 of the pope. 
 
 Mr. ('AMrnKi.i.. — Nftt hy the po]ie, hut hy the councils. 
 
 Bishop l'iitf:K.i,i,. — TIk^ grMieral councils never mach; the recogni- 
 tion of this power, an article of faith ; why, then, should they dis- 
 claim ill 
 
 Here is what pope Innocent III. said. Ilis account of this affair 
 is very curious. It is, indeed, a strong disclaimer, and every word 
 deserves to hr maturely wi'ighcd. 
 
 Cimi r<"X miprriorrni in trmporiililnia niinimc rfCo(>no«riil, «irii:jurl« iilteriui 
 l.p^ione in »o «e juritdiclioni no«lrr nubjircrr pcjtwil, in rpio vidcniur oli(|uibui, 
 qiiorl per tripaiim, iion (nntpiniii pater cum film, »«il iBncpiam princep' < uui tub- 
 clilii potuit (liiipeu*nre. Ucj^i igitur |;ratiaiu i«ciiuut rsquisiti :>~quou uoa toluiu
 
 i." 
 
 340 debatje: on tuh 
 
 in Ecclesiaj patrimonio, super quo plcnnm in trinporalibus gerinius potestatem, 
 verum ctiani in aliis regionibiis, ctrlis Ciiusismspeclis, temjjoialein jmijclictiontm 
 casiialiter t:\evctiu\is. Aon ijuolI ;:litiio juri pni'jutlicHif vilinius, vel putestatem 
 nobJK indebitani usurpare, cum iion igiioranius Cliristurii in evangtiio rtspondisse; 
 redite, quae sunt Cit'saris, Ca-sari, et (iu:e sunt Dti, IJco. IVopltr tjuocl postula- 
 tus ut ha-reditateni diviiltrtt inUr duos : quis, in()uit, constituit uiejudicein inter 
 vos? Sed quia in Deuteronoinio rontinettr, si (iitiicile et ainbiguuni apud te 
 "udiciuni esse perspexeris, Surge et asrende ad locum, queni tligit Doniinus 
 'eustuus,&c. Liber V. E[)ist 12. Innocent III. 
 
 Since the King bv no means recognizes a superior in temporal authority, he 
 could submit to our jurisdiction witliout infrin^^ing upon the right of aiiotlier, 
 in wliich it seems to some, that he could tKspi nsi', not as a father villi his children; 
 butasH prince with his sul)jects ; thtrefore we granted tlie King nhat was re- 
 quisite, because we not only exercise a tempor;il power, I7i crrlaincuses, in the 
 j).itrinion_v of the church, over which we act witli full authority in temporalities, 
 but also in other districts, certain matters being considered on : IN'ot that we 
 wish to determine prematurt ly of another's right, or usurp a ]H)wer not due to 
 us : since we are not ignorant of what Christ has said in the gospel. On account 
 of which he was asked to divide an inherit^Dce bttween two, who, says he, hu» 
 appointed me judge between ye? But that it iswriltm in Deuttr jiomy, if 
 you find a dithcult and doubtful case, rise and repair to the place, which the 
 Lord voiir God has chosen, &<•. B. V. E. 12. Innocent III. 
 
 Here the pope, himself, quotes scripture and precedent, against 
 the assumption of such power. Next — behold the testimony of a 
 particular council, the doctrine of the ancient Fathers, of an eminent 
 divine, the celebrated Arthur O'Leary, on the matter before us, and 
 on persecution for conscience sake. 
 
 The Council of Toledo lorbids the use of violence to enforce belief: "Because," 
 add the lathers," God shows mercy to whom he tliinks fit ; and hardens whom 
 he pleases." " Pnecipit sancta sy nodus nemini deinceps ad credendum vim in- 
 ferre. Cui enini Deus vult, miseretur ; et queni vult, indurat."* And the 
 Council of Lateran, under Tope Alexandtr the third, acknovi ledges, that the 
 church rejects bloody executions on the score of religion, which proves to dem- 
 onstration, that the canon charged to the fourth council of Lateran, under Inno- 
 cent the third, in which canon, " the secular powers are addressed to take an 
 oath, to exterminate all heretics out of their territories, and in case of refusal, to 
 have their subjects absolved from their allegiance, and the lands of the heretics 
 to be seized by the Catholics," <fcc. is spurious. Collyer, the Protestant his- 
 torian, in his fifth volume of Ecclesiastical History, acknowledges that it is net 
 found in any copy, coeval with the council. Some hundred years after liie 
 council, it was produced to light by a German. And we know full well, thatat 
 that time, several spurious ))iece3 were produced, to serve the purposes of 
 rancor. 
 
 Were even such a decree, or any other of a similar nature, genuine, the Cath- 
 olic? would reject them, without any breach of faith ; because the church has 
 no power over life, limb, the rights of sovereigns, the property of individuals, 
 or any temporal concern whatsoever. Her bishops, then, whether separately, 
 or in a collective body, cannot graft any such power into their spiritual commis- 
 sion. They would act in an extrajudicial manner, and beyond the limits of their 
 sphere. This I have proved in my remarks on Mr. VWsley's letter, and elsewhere. 
 
 Far from countenancing cruelty, d( ath and o[)pression, " the sijirit of the 
 church was, in such a manner, the spirit o( meekness and charity, that she pre- 
 tented, as much as in her power, the death, of criminals, and even of her most 
 cruel enemies," says Eleury. v You have seen how the lives of the murderers 
 of the martyrs of' Armenia were saved ; and St. Austin's ellbrt to preserve the 
 Donatists, (who had exercised such cruellies against the Catholics) from the 
 rigor of the imperial laws. You have seen how much the church detested the 
 indiscreet zeal of those bishops, who prosecuted the heresiarch Priscillian to 
 death. 
 
 In general, the church saved the lives of all criminals, as far as she had power. 
 St. Augustine accounts for this conduct, in his letter to Macedonius, where we 
 
 * Cap. do Judsis, dist. AS.
 
 B03tA:« CATHOLIC EELIGION. 341 
 
 read, that the church wished there were no pains in this life, but of the healing 
 kind, to destroy, not man, but sin, and to preserve the sinner from eternal tor- 
 ments."* If, in after ages, some pones and bishops deviated from this plan of 
 meekness and moderation, their conduct should not involve a consequence inju- 
 rious to the principles of the Catholic church, which condemns such proceedings. 
 The religion of Catholics and Protestants condemns frauds, fornications, drunk- 
 enness, revenge, duelling, perjur}', &c. Some of their relaxed and impious 
 writers have even attempted, not oiTly lo palliate, but even to apologize for such 
 disorders. The chil Iren of the christian religion daily practise them, — is the 
 christian relif^ion accountable for the brea'^h of her own laws? 
 
 My friend made some display, on the persecuting canon of the coun- 
 cil of Lateran, and yet Collyer, a Protestant historian, in the 5ih vo- 
 lume of his ecclesiastical history, pronounces it spurious ! He ac- 
 knowledges that it is not found in the copy of the decrees coeval with 
 the council ; that it was manufactured by the Germans, hundreds of 
 years afterwards ; and that there were several spurious documents 
 manuficlured about the same time. Now hear a distinguished pre- 
 late of our church, Dr. England, in. his speech before congress, in 
 which he leaves nothing important unsaid on this topic. I am happy 
 to incorporate his eloquent remarks in this debate. 
 
 " A political ditticulty lias been sometimes raised here. If this infallible tribu- 
 nal which you profess yourselves bound to obey, should command you to over- 
 turn our government, and tfllyou that it is the will of God to have it new model- 
 ed, will you be bound to obey? And how then can we consider those men to 
 be good citizens, who profess to owe obedience to a foreign authority, to an au- 
 thority not recognized in our constitution; to an authority which has excommu- 
 nicated and deposed sovereigns, and which has absolved subjects and citizens 
 fron» their bond of allegiance. 
 
 Our ansiver to this is extremely simple and very plain, it is, that we would not 
 be bound to obey it; that we recognize no such authority. I would not allow 
 to the pope or to any bishop of our church, outside this Union, the smsllest in- 
 terference with the humblest vote at our most insignificant balloting box. He 
 has no right to such interference. You must, from the view which I have taken, 
 see the plain distinction between spiritual authority, and a right to interfere in 
 the regulation of human government or civil concerns. You have in your con- 
 stitution wisely kept thi;iii distinct and separate. It will be wisdom and prudence 
 and safety lo continue the separation. Your constitution says that Congress shall 
 have no power to restrict the free exercise of religion. Suppose your digni- 
 fied body lo-niorrow attempted to rclrict me in the exercise ol that right ; though 
 the law, as it would be callcil, should piss your two houses and obtain the signa- 
 ture of the presicli-nt, I would not obey it, because it would be no law, it would 
 be an usurpation: for you cannot make a law in violation of your constitution; 
 you havfi no power in such a case. So, if that tribunal ^vhi^h is established by 
 the Ocatur to le«tify lo iiie what he has revealed, and lo make the necessary 
 regulations of discipline for the governiiient of the church, shall presume to go 
 beyond that boiinlary which circumscribes its power, its acts are invalid, my 
 rights are not to be destroyed by its usurpalKin, and there is no principle- of my 
 creed which prevents my using my natural right of proper resistance' to any tyran- 
 nical usurpation. You have no power to interfere with my r< ligious rights, tho 
 tribunal of the ehurrli has no jiower to interfere with my civil rights. It is n 
 duty which every pood man ought to di«rhnr)^e for his own, aiirl (or the public 
 benefit, to resist any encroachinenl upon «ither. We (lf> not heheve that (Jod 
 pave to the church any power to iiiterferi- with our civil ri^htxor our civil concerns. 
 Christ our I,ord refused to interfere in the division of the iiilieritaiice between two 
 brothers, one of whom rerpiested that interference. The civil tribiiniilH of Jiiden 
 were vesferl with siifTirirnl authority for that purpose, luid he did not transfi-r it 
 tohisBposlles. It must hence be apparent ttiat any idea of the Itonian ('atholics of 
 those republics being in nnv way under the inlliience of any foreign ei <|rsi«»ticBl 
 power, or Inleetl of any church authority in the exercise of their civil riglits, i* 
 a serious miitakc. There is no class of our fellow citizens more free to think. 
 
 • Flaury, Discoorf, 9. No. 0. 
 2dQ
 
 343 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 and to act for themselves on the subject of our rights than we are, and I believe 
 there is not any portion of the Aineriraii family more jealous of foreign influence, 
 or more ready to resist it. Wc liave brethren of our church in every part of the 
 globe, under every form of government. This is a subject upon which each of us 
 is free to act as he thinks proper. We know of no tribunal in our church which 
 can interfere in our proceedings as citizens. Our ecclesiastical authority existed 
 before our constitution, is not aHected, i)y it; there is not in the world a consti- 
 tution which it doe? not precede, with whkh it could not co-exist; it has seen 
 nations perish, dynasties decay, empires prostrate; it lias co-existed wilh all, it 
 has survived them all, it is not dependent upon any one of them; they may still 
 change, and it will still continue. 
 
 We now come to examine what are called the persecuting laws of our church. 
 In the year 1215, at the council of Lateran, certain heresies were condemned 
 by the first canon; and amongst other things this canon recites as Catholic faith, 
 in opposition to the errors of those whom it condemned, that there was but one 
 God the Creator of all things, of spirits as well as bodies; the author of the Old 
 Testament and of the Mosaic dispensation, equally as of the J\ew Testament 
 and of the Christian dispensation; that he created not only the good angels, 
 butal«o the devil and the bad angels, originally coming good from his hand, and 
 becoming wicked by their own malice*; i^c. In its third canon it excommunicates 
 those hei-etics, and declares them to be separated from the body of the church. 
 Then follows a direction, that the heretics so condemned, are to be given up to 
 the secular powers, or to their bailiffs, to be duly punished. This direction con- 
 tinues to require of all bishops and others having authority, to make due search 
 within their several districts for those heretics, and if they will not be induced 
 to retract their errors, desires that they should be delivered over to be punished. 
 There is an injunction then to all temporal lords to cleanse their dominions by 
 exterminating those heretics: and if they will not, within a year from having 
 been so admonished by the church, cleanse their lands of Ikis heretical filth, 
 they shall be deprived if they have superior lords, and if they be superior lords 
 an(i be negligent, it shall be the duty of the metropolitan and his provincial 
 bishops to exconnnunicate them, and if an}' one of those lords paramount so ex- 
 comniunicated for this negligence shall continue during twelve months under the 
 excommunication, the metropolitan shall certify the same to the pope, who, find- 
 ing admonition useless, shall tlepose this prince, and absolve his subjects from 
 their oaths of fealty, and deliver the territory over to Catholics, who naving ex- 
 terminated the heretics sliall remain in peaceable possession. 
 
 This is the most formidable evidence adduced against the position which I 
 have laid down, that it is not a doctrine of our church, that we are bound to 
 persecute those who differ from us in belief. I trust that I shall not occupy- 
 very much of your time in showing, that this enactment does not in any way 
 weaken that assertion. I shall do so, by satisfying you that this is a special law 
 for a particular case; and also by convincing you that it is not a canon of the'church 
 respecting an}' of those points in which we admit her infallibility; nor is it a 
 canon of the church. 
 
 The doctrines condemned in this first canon originated in Syria, touched lightly 
 at the islands of the Archipelago, settled down in Bulgaria, and spread into the 
 south of Europe, but were principally received in the vicinity of Albi, in France. 
 The persons condenmed held the Manicliean principle of there being two crea- 
 tors of the universe; one a good being, the author of the New Testament, the 
 creator of good angels, and generally of spiritual essence; the other an evil be- 
 ing, the creator of bodies, the author of the Mosaic dispensation, and generally 
 of the Old Testament. They stated that marriage was unlawful, and co-opera- 
 tion with the principle of evil was criminal. The consequences to society were 
 of the very worst description, immoral, dismal, and descdating. The church 
 examined the tloctrine, condemned it as heretical, and cut ofl' those who held or 
 abetted it, from her communion. Here, according to the principles which I have 
 maintained before you, her power ended. Beyond this wc claim no authority: 
 the church, by divfnc right, we say, infallibly testifies what doctrines Christ has 
 revealed, and by the same right, in the same manner, decides that what contra- 
 dicts this revelation is erroneous; but she has no divine authority to make a law 
 which shall strip of their property, or consign to the executioner, those whom 
 she convicts of error. The doctrine of our obligation to submit does not extend 
 to force us to submit to an usurpation; and if the church made a law upon a
 
 ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. 343 
 
 subject beyond her commission for legislation it would be invalid; there would 
 be no proper claim for our obedience: usurpation does not create a right. The 
 council could by right make the doctrinal decision; but it had no right to make 
 the temporal enacliiient: and where there exists no right to legislate on one 
 side, there is no obligation of obedience on the other. If this was then a canon 
 of the church, it was not one ia making which she was acting withm her consti- 
 tutional juris liction, it was an usurpation of temporal government, and the doc- 
 trine of infallibility does not bear upon it. 
 
 Every document respecting this council, the entire of the evidence respecting: 
 it, as well as the very mode of framing the enactments, prove that it was a special 
 law regarding a particular case. The only persons whose errors were con- 
 demned at that council were those whom I have described. The general prin- 
 ciple of legal exposition restraining the application of penal enactments must 
 here have full weight, and will restrain the ap[)lication of the penalty to the 
 only criminals brought within its view. But the evidence is still more confirmed, 
 by the special words of detinile meaning, tliis, and Jilth, which were specially 
 descriptive of only those persous^ the first by its very nature, the second by the 
 nature of their crime; and the continued exposition of the enactment restrained 
 its application to the special case, though frequentlv attempts had been made 
 by individuals to extend its application, not in virtue of the statute, but in virtue 
 of analogy. It would then be improperly forcing its construction to say that its 
 operation was to be general, as it evidenti}' was made only for a particular case. 
 
 Id viewing the preamble to this council, as well as from our knowledge of 
 history, we discover that this was not merely a council of the church, but it was 
 also a congress of the civilized world. The state of the times rendered such 
 assemblages not only usual but necessary: and each legislative body did its own 
 business by its own authority; and very generally the subjects which were de- 
 cided upon by one body in one point of view, came under the consideration of 
 the other assembly in a diflerent point of view, and their separate decisions were 
 engrossed upon a joint record. 
 
 Boinetimes they were preserved distinct and separate, but copyists, for their 
 own convenience, brought together all the articles regarding the same subject, 
 from what source soever they were obtained. Such was precisely the case in 
 the instance before \ii. There were present on this occasion, by themselves or 
 by their legates, the king of Sicily, emperor elect of the Romans, the emperor of 
 the east, the king of France, the kingof Kngland, the king of .Arragon, the king 
 of Jerusalem, the king of Cyprus, several other kings, and lords paramount, so- 
 vereign states, and princes. Several of the bishops were princes or barons. In 
 the ecclesiastical council, the third canon terminated exiiclly in one sentence, 
 which was that of the excommunication or separation from the church, of those 
 whom the first canon had condemned, whatever name or names they might as- 
 sume; Irecaiise they had in several places several appellations, and were con- 
 tinually dividing olf and changing names a.s they separated. The duty and the 
 jurisdiction of the council came to this; and the ancient records give no more 
 M the portion of its enactments. But the congress of the temporal powers then 
 made trie subsetpient part as their ennctment: and tliUH this penal and civil re- 
 gulation was not an act of the council, but an act of the congress : and it is not 
 a canon concerning the doctrine of the church, nor indeed is it by any means 
 a canon, though the copyists have a'lded it to tin; canon as regarding {he very 
 same subject ; and as confessedly the excommuniculion in th<' tliini canon re- 
 garded only the special case of those particular heretics, the addition of the 
 penal enactment (o this narticular canon is confirmatory evidence that those 
 who adde<l it knew that the penalty in the one case wa» only co-cxtcniivc with 
 the exconiniunicnlion in the rjllier. 
 
 Having thus seen that thin canon of the f'ouncil of Lnti-rnn was not n doctrinal 
 decision of our chur< h e«l:ililiiliing the doctrine of persecution, and coinmnnd- 
 ing to pcr^eculf , but that it was a civil enactment by the (enipoml poweragoinst 
 persons whom they Uioked upon as rriniinah, it is iiiDre the province of the pol- 
 itician or of the jurist than of the divine to deriile upon its propritty. I may, 
 however, be permittrd to say that in my opinion the exiHlence of civili/.ed socie- 
 ty rerpiired Iti enactment, lhou;;h no good man can iifiprovr of iie\eral »1pu>>(s 
 which were committed under the pretext of its execution, nor ran tiny rational 
 man pretend that because of the existence of a special law for a particular pur-
 
 344 DEBATi: ON THE 
 
 pose, every case which may bethought analogous lo that for which proTision 
 was made is to be iileo;nlly aubjerteii to those provisions. 
 
 We are now arrived at the i)h\(e where we may easily find the origin and the 
 extent of the papal power ot deposing sovereigns, and of absolving sul.jtcts 
 from their ouths of allegiance. 'I'o judge properly of facts, we must know their 
 special circumstances, not their mere outline. The circumstances of Christep- 
 Jom were then widely diflereiit from those in which we now are placed. Europe 
 was then under the feudal system. I have seldom found a writer, not a Catholic, 
 who, in treating of that age and that systtni, has been accurate, and who has not 
 done us very serious injustice. But a friend of mine, who is a respectable member 
 of your honorable body, has led me to read Hallam's account of it, and I must 
 say that I have seldom met with so much candor, and, what I call, so much 
 truth. From reading his statement of that system it will be plainly seen that 
 there existed amongst the Christian potentates a sort of federation, in which they 
 bound themselves by certain regulations, and to the observance of those they 
 were held not merely by their oaths but by various penalties, sometimes they 
 consented the penalty should be the loss of their station. It was of course ne- 
 cessary to ascertain that the fact existed before its consequences should be declared 
 to follow ; it was also necessarj- to establish some tribunal to examine and to de- 
 cide as to the existence of the fact itself, and to proclaim that existence. Amongst 
 independent sovereigns there was no superior, and it was natural to fear that 
 mutual jealousy would create great difficult}- in selecting a chief; and that what 
 originated in concession might afterwards be claimed as a right. They were 
 however all members of one church, of which the Pope was the head, and, in 
 this respect, their common father : and by universal consent it was regulated 
 that he should examine, ascertain the fact, proclaim it, and declare its conse- 
 quences. Thus he did in reality possess the power of deposing monarchg, and 
 of absolving their subjects from oaths of fealty, but only those monarchs who 
 were members of that federation, and in the cases legally provided for, and by 
 their concession, not by divine right, and during the term of that federation and 
 the existence of his commission. He governed the church by divine rjghf, he 
 deposed kings and absolved subjects from their allegiance by human concession. 
 I preach the doctrines of my church by divine right, but I preach from this spot 
 not by that right but by the permission of others. 
 
 It is not then a doctrine of our chiircli that the pope has been divinely com- 
 missioned either to depose kings or to interfere with republics, or to absolve 
 the subjects of the former from their allegiance, or interfere with the civil con- 
 cerns of the latter. When the persecuted English Catholics, under Elixabtth, 
 found the pope making an unfounded claim to this right, and upon the shadow 
 of that unfounded right making inroads upon their national independence, by 
 declaring who should or who should not be their temporal ruler, they well 
 showed how little they regarded his absolving them from their allegiance, for 
 they volunteered their services to protect their liberties, which their Catholic 
 ancestors had labored to establish. And she well knew that a Catholic might 
 safely be entrusted with the admiralty of her fleet, and that her person was se- 
 cure amongst her disgraced Catholic nobility and gentry, and their persecuted 
 adherents; although the Court of Rome had issued its bull of absolution, and 
 some divines were found who endeavored to prove that what originated in vol- 
 untary concession of states and monarchs was derived from divine institution. 
 If then Elizabeth, of whose character I would not wish in this place to express 
 my opinion, was safe amidst those whom she persecuted for their faith, even when 
 the head of their church absolved them from allegiance, and if at such a moment 
 they flocked round her standard to repel Catholic invaders who came with con- 
 secrated banners, and that it is admitted on all hands that in so doing they vio- 
 lated no principle of doctrine or of discipline of their church, as we all avow : 
 surely America need not fear for the fidelity of her Catholic citizens, whom she 
 cherishes and whom she receives to her bosom with affection and shelters from the 
 persecution of others. Neither will any person attempt to establish an analogy be- 
 tween our fefleration and tliat of feudalism, to argue that the pope can do p.mongst 
 us what he did anion2:st I'uropean potent.itcs under cirnmistances widely different. 
 
 My worthy opponent said, that he would only tmich on persecution. 
 My friends, persecution had marked me for a victim in my native 
 land, and forced me to seek an Asylum in America, when I was 
 young and friendless ! Persecution is there, in full operation at this
 
 R05U.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 345 
 
 very hour. Scarcely a breeze comes across the ocean, without bring- 
 ing on its wings, fresh tidings, of blood, shed under Protestant per- 
 secution — by ministers of the Protestant faith. 
 
 Widows there kneel in the blood of their own children ; and, because 
 excess of grief has made them maniacs, they drink that blood, and 
 curse the authors of their misery. Is not this true ? Does not the 
 un'verse know and shudder at it 1 And having been compelled to 
 flee from intolerance, having fought against it, must we still see the 
 green-3yed monster, trampling upon the vine and tig tree, here, where 
 we had hoped to sit down under their shade, in safety, and in peace, 
 with our brethren of every denomination 1 Must we still fear the 
 midnight knock at the door, and the domiciliary visit, by a brutal 
 soldiery 1 Must the perishing orphans see the bread taken out of 
 their mouths by rapacious parsons, and their mother's cloak (their 
 only covering of a wintry night) distrained, to pay the tithe proctor T 
 Where will you find tyranny like this ? Would this be a better state 
 of things, than what we, in this free country enjoy ? Bigots would 
 blast this glorious prospect. They would proscribe one sect after 
 another. The appetite for blood, they have, even now, evinced, and 
 we know, when once indulged, how hard it is to sate it ! But I must 
 call upon Protestant testimony for the wrongs of Ireland — and I will 
 bnly touch upon the persecution. Taylor, a graduate of Trinity Col- 
 lege, in his history of Ireland, says : 
 
 ■■ It uould be a mtre w;>ate of words to reprobate this iniquitoux law, or ra- 
 ther this violation of all law, human and divine. IS'o Irish Protestant ran pe- 
 ruse its endctnitnls without a blu«h for the shame thus brought on his religion, 
 when it was thus virtually declarid that the reformed system should owe it* 
 • trength and security, not to the purity of its principles, not to the excellence 
 of its doctrines, but to robbery and oppression, to dissentioii between father and 
 child, to stimulating one neighbor to sei/.e the fruits of another's industry, to 
 the desecration of a solemn t^aci anient, by making it a test for ofTire. ilow can we 
 be surprised tlial the reformed religion is unpopular in Ireland, when by this 
 and similar laws, a Protestant legislature virtually declared that Protestantism 
 colli 1 not be secure unless it entered into alliancr with iielial. Mammon and 
 Moloch?" Hist, of Irrlaml, Hy W. C Taylor, F.sq. A. B. of Trinity college, 
 Dubllii, page Km, Vol. 2n I. New York edit.' 1833. 
 
 Now tell me if the annals of Catholicism can produce any thing 
 Hke a paralU'l to this ! After enumerating the most tyrannical laws 
 that Draco, or Dioclecir\n ever enacted, (wn we discover more pro- 
 scription — more cruelty 1 
 
 Aiy friends, I do not blame the Protestant rclif^ion for this. It is 
 the spirit of the country and government; and the shame is, that 
 when (Jatholic governments have ceased to persecute, Protestant ones 
 continue to do r.o. 
 
 My friends, were I to roi)<;nlt my own feelings, I should be better 
 
 fileased to draw a veil over tlir;sc Inrrors ; but my opponent made al- 
 usions to the in(|iii)Htion, as an argument that, if ever the ("atholics 
 became the most numerous, they wfnild make it a part of tlieir Ry«tem 
 to persecute ; as if llie nnmc argument, if argument it r\u\ he railed, 
 would not be ef|\ially strong against all tlie jea<linfr ehuI'^lH•(^ nf Pro- 
 testantism ; an(i if the gentleman makes any further extracts, I will 
 meet them just in the same way, and rondemn both ('athoiics and 
 ProtesLTnts, for that by which they are aliki' disgraced. Now, aa 
 he brings the account of the iiKiuisitioD before us, and proves it to be 
 the most bloody tyranny, setting aside all forms of legal prticedure 
 &c., I will refer you to Hume's history of Kngland, for an inquisi' 
 
 44
 
 SIO REnATi: O.V TllK 
 
 lion equally terriblo, and more unjust, under Protestant England — 
 the famous Star-Chainber, where, upon the least suspicion, without 
 proof, the oflicer was sent to the iiousos of the most distinguished 
 men, nay even to their beds, and forced them in the dead of night 
 to a prison. Sir Thomas Moore, l)ishoj) F'isher, the aged countess of 
 Salisbury, &c. arc instances with wliich I could fill up some horrific 
 pages. 
 
 As to oaths ; the gentleman says that I have taken two which are 
 incompatible with each other. This is not so. My ecclesiastical oath 
 is of a purely spiritual nature. The only oath of allegiance, of a 
 temporal character, Avhich I have ever taken, was to the United States. 
 These two oatlis cannot be incompatible. The heavens and the earth 
 are not more different from one another, than they are. They cannot 
 possibly interfere with each other. Therefore the bishop's oath is, by 
 no means, what the gentleman has represented it. The pope has ab- 
 jured the odious sense which the document is made to bear. It is no 
 sin surely, to swear that we will not kill tlie pope. Would my friend 
 make it such 1 ' Saving my order'' is a clause which the gentleman 
 should have expatiated upon, and our order is forbidden, under the 
 most awful penalties, to shed any one's blood, but our own, if we are 
 called upon to suffer martyrdom, and that of the mystic victim of 
 the altar, as a propitiation for our own sins, and those of the entire 
 world. Pcrscquar was never intended to mean persecute. It alludes 
 to moral, not brute force. The weapons of our warfare are spiritual, 
 not carnal. The Latin word means only to follow up with persever- 
 ing argument, and persuasion, as I am doing this day. Before I took 
 that oath, I read it again and again, and took the decisions of the 
 bishops of America upon it. We all agreed that there was nothing 
 in it contrary to the allegiance due to the United States. 
 
 M)' friend spoke of Catholics violating their oaths. I would ask 
 if there is a nation that has given such splendid testimony of respect 
 for oaths, as Catholic Ireland? For 300 years of the bloodiest per- 
 secution that was ever inflicted, they have steadily refused to take 
 an oath which every thing but conscience urged them to take. 
 
 My friends, all this ought to be remembered, not for the gratifica- 
 tion of hostile feelings, but for justice, and as a fair offset, to balance 
 the Spanish Inquisition, which is all the while not Catholic. — [Time 
 expired.] 
 
 Half past 11 o'clock, A. M. 
 Mil. Campbell rises — 
 
 We have, my friends, had matter of debate thrown before us during 
 the last hour, that would require seven days more to discuss. An 
 ocean instead of a harbor opens to our view. Good policy, however ! 
 Instead of concentrating on the main points, which, above all others, 
 it behooved the bishop to clear up, if, indeed, he had any hopes of being 
 able to defend himself, he gives us a little of every thing, great and 
 small; present, past, and future. Thirty minutes would not be enough 
 for me to single out, arrange, and state the contrary propositions, to 
 cover all his last premises. As the gentleman knows what he can best 
 defend, and what he cannot, and as his lime is at his own disposal, I 
 have no right to complain. I proceed, therefore, not to recapitulate 
 my argument, as I expected we both would have done in our last
 
 EOilAN CATHOLIC EELIGIO.'T. 347 
 
 speeches : but to brush the dust off a few of the prominent points, 
 crowded together in his last effort. 
 
 The bishop's denial of the genuineness of this Rhemish Testament, 
 at this time, is exceedingly unfair; and still worse, from whatever mo- 
 tive it may proceed, it is wholly reckless of history and fact. I say it 
 is unfair; because, when near the beginning of the debate, I showed 
 him the Testament, and challenged him to object to it if he had any- 
 thing against it, that it might be settled forthwith, he was silent. I 
 went even farther — I asked him for another copy, or edition of it more 
 correct, if he had one : he was still silent. And now, at the close, he 
 has held up the Dcuaj' Bible, without these notes, published long 
 since, not pretending to be the same work, either as to time, place, or 
 circumstance, as proof that this edition of the New Testament is not 
 authentic! But my audience, and the public, will appreciate all this. 
 I do assert, then, and my assertion has as much logic in it as his, that 
 the gentleman has misrepresented this affair — that this book is truly 
 what its title page declares it; and that both the text and the notes are 
 as truly Roman Catholic as the Douay Bible. Hear the tide; 
 
 "The Atw Ttstaiiit nt ol' our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; translated out 
 of the Latin Vulgate, diligently conipured with the original Greek, and first pub- 
 lished b}' the English college of Rhtiins, Anno 1582: with the Original Preface, 
 Argument?, and Tables, Marginal jVotes and Annotations." 
 
 Again: hear the recommendation of this work by " ministers of the 
 gospel, and other learned persons of various denominations." They 
 say, "This edition contains all the notes of the original edition as pub- 
 lished at Rheims, A. D. 1582." Not a new and amended impression, 
 suppressing the more offensive comments, but the original itself. This 
 recommendation is signed by more than a hundred gentlemen of as 
 much literary and religious reputation as can be found in the U. Slates. 
 
 Once more: 
 
 Certikicate. — We have compared this New York edition of the Rhemish 
 Testament and Annotations with the first publication of that volume, which wa« 
 issued at Rheims in 1582; and after examination, we do hereby certify, that the 
 preient re-print is an exact and faithful copy of the original work, without 
 abridgment or addition, except that the Latin of a few phrases which were trans- 
 lated by the annotators, and some unimportant expletive words »vere undesign- 
 edly oiuitted. The orthography also has been modernized. 
 
 John HRKfKf<RinGr.. 
 
 W'n. 1,1AM C. linoWM.EE, D. I). 
 
 Tho.mas Dk Witt, D. D. 
 Duncan Dunhar. 
 
 AR( IIMIAI.I) ^LA( i.w. 
 VVll.I.IA^t I'ATTIiN. 
 
 To all these certificates there are not less llian one hundral ami thirty 
 name*. But the gentleman's calling this authority in question, is in 
 pood keepinnr with his whole course. There is no authority against 
 the church of Ronm — nrillicr Protestant nor Catholic to ho, believed, 
 if they say any thing against lirr. Hut infi<l(;ls, and siirli Protoslants 
 as flatter her in h«'r assumptions, are cationical as lK)ly writ! If the 
 bishop is to b'' believed, all Protestant historians, theologians, authors, 
 &c. opposed to the Roman assumptions, are liars. In proof and de- 
 monstration of the suprr-excpjlency of Prf>lostant principles, and of tlie 
 debasing, degrading, and enslaving principles of the pa])acy, linteiuied 
 to have drawn a full comparison between the Protestant and ('alliolic 
 
 fiarts of Ireland; the Protestant and Catholic countries of Swit7.or- 
 and — between Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Protestant England —
 
 848 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 between the United Stales and the South American States^^betwten 
 Protpstant and Roman Catholic America. But I cannot now attempt 
 it ; and much do I regret it : for such a comp;uison fairly drawn, would 
 amount to the most satisfactory demonstration of the political, literary, 
 and moral tendencies of the two systems. Plain, as proof from holy 
 writ, it would thus liave appeared, that this superstition, like the touch 
 of the torpedo, lays a bemimbinor, paralizing, and blighting hand on 
 all within its grasp. 
 
 The gentleman is yet on indulgences and purgatory, when he ought, 
 in reply to my last speech, to have endeavored, if possible, to relieve 
 his cause from imputations the most serious and the most revolting to 
 American ears. I have not thought it important to descant upon the 
 tariff of sins, or to give a tabular view of the prices at which certain 
 sins were rated in gold and silver in the market of indulj^ences. Nor 
 have I at all inquired why, in this tax-book, for killing a layman a less 
 Bum is asked than for simply striking a priest, wiliiout breaking the 
 skin. These questions, though capable of solution from authentic docu- 
 ments, are the dreams of purgatory I deem so inferior, and so un- 
 blushingly barefaced impositions, that I prefer matters of more grave 
 concern to this community for the time allotted us. That indulgences 
 are bona fide licenses to commit sin, and not simple absolution for past 
 sins, is as susceptible of proof as that Martin Luther began the Protes- 
 tant reformation. 
 
 The gentleman will not defend the popes, he says, in their attempts 
 to exercise supreme political power; but asks, "Did the kings of the 
 nations ever acquiesce in it?" That kings for centuries received and 
 held their crowns at the sovereign pleasure of the popes, is just as ob- 
 vious a historic fact, as that there were popes at all. Sometimes, in- 
 deed, the kings fought against these assumptions, and sometimes they 
 acquiesced. But the ready subordination of the state to the church 
 evinced in the magistrates executing the anathemas of the church, in 
 putting to death those denoted as heretics by the church, shows in what 
 a state of subserviency and pliancy political princes were held by the 
 popes. That is just the very terror of church and state — ;the very 
 supremacy which we fear, and which is so antipodal to our institutions. 
 
 It is putting heretics or reformers to death, and supporting a human 
 priesthood by the state according to the dictation of the church, which 
 makes that union, or subserviency, so wicked and odious in our estima- 
 tion. And will the gentleman ask, what Roman Catholic ^tate, nation, 
 or prince, ever did such a thing ? ! 
 
 In his counter displays of Roman Catholic doctrine, my friend has 
 not given you the trans-Alpine doctrine. The Cis-Alpiuo, or Gallican 
 doctors, are not of the old Roman Catholic school. They are almost 
 semi-protestant on those very points on which he lias introduced thern. 
 They are no evidence against the standard doctrines of that church 
 on these questions. The French Catholics began to stand aloof from 
 the high and haughty pretensions of their trans-montane brethren. 
 They are the most liberal portion of the Roman church, and have, con- 
 sequently, done more for the promotion of science than all the rest of 
 the Catholic world put together. Bishop England gives their views. 
 
 I asked for an authentic disclaimer of the attributes of the Roman 
 church, and of those acts and deeds indicative of her tyrannical, op- 
 pressive and persecuting spirit which I have detailed. I ask this still ;
 
 EO>U.N CATHOLIC RELIGION. 349 
 
 and while I do it in a tone indicative of that earnestness which the 
 occasion requires, I do il in the same benevolence to my opponent and 
 his party which 1 felt and expressed at the beginning of this discus- 
 sion. The times and the occasion peremptorily demand it. We know 
 what individual priests and bishops have said against popes and coun- 
 cils, and their proceedings, and against other parts of that system: but 
 these are said for effect ad caplandum vulgus, and will be unsaid by 
 the same individuals, or by others, when occasion requires. I have 
 brought very serious allegations against the lioman Catholic institu- 
 tion, and authorities for them — all of them authentic, and most of them 
 never disputed by my opponent. He disclaims these principles, acts, 
 and movements : but he disproves not one of them. Nor would the 
 disclaiming of them by all the bishops in America, disprove one of 
 them. The council of Trent has ordained and enjoined all these prin- 
 ciples of implicit and blind obedience, intolerance, proscription, and 
 persecution. No council has since met, and no power but a general 
 council can define a single article of faith, or rule of manners, accord- 
 innr to the declarations of my antagonist. Indeed, the doctrine of tho 
 council of 'JVent must remain immutalile and infallible while time en- 
 dures, according to him : for no other general council can possibly 
 contravene it ; and, therefore, while the Roman church exists, she 
 must be, what I have shown she was, before and since the council of 
 Trent. 
 
 This council met in a boisterous lime. They met to oppose and put 
 down Protestantism. They knew the allegations of Protestants 
 against their doctrine. If then, they could have abandoned those prin- 
 ciples for the sake of either reclaiming or defeating the Lutherans, 
 that was the time to do it. They sat long enough, and debated with 
 zeal enough ; and yet they dare not discuss the papal authority. Tho 
 pope forbade them to debate his office, jurisdiction, or authority, and 
 ihey did not attempt it. Tho pope signed their decrees, and all that was 
 done there was done irrevocably and forever. The disavowal or the 
 disclaiming of any priest or bishoj) in the Roman Catholic church, is 
 not worth more, and has no more authority, than mine. It is, therefore, 
 of no value for my learned opponent, or any American prelate to say 
 that he does not approve this or that; or, agree to this or that. They 
 must all submit to, and they will all inculcate on all suitable occa- 
 sions, every decree of the council of Trent. Thus did the Jesuits in 
 Abyssinia. They first ('xphined away every thing: but finally ex- 
 plained it bnck again, and had almost Haddled tho pope and tho coun- 
 cil of Trent forcvT on those nnfortunnto Abyssirnans. 
 
 I could, had I the time now, from that very history of Ireland from 
 ■which the gentleman read you an extract, a copy of which I loo have 
 lying on lh<! table, — I say, I can from ihis book show that the ancient 
 christian church of Irrlaiid was su!)jng.il('d to tin! church of Rome, by 
 this very species of rhetoric, and that finally tho whole island was 
 enslaved to the pope by the same nienns : for in Kiigland, Scotland, 
 Wales, and Ireland, there were (Miristian churches, ages before tho 
 popes of Rome were born. But by this chamelion attribute of becom- 
 ing all ihingH to all men, for a while, she has rnado all men become 
 what she pleases. 
 
 Thus by degrees under this system, the human spirit is broken, de- 
 graded and debased, night ensues, and Onally, gross darkness covers 
 2E
 
 350 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 the people. Even in Canada since the papacy has gained the ascend- 
 ency, laws have been passed in the provincial assemblies, giving' to 
 school commissioners and grrand jurors the privilege of" making their 
 inar/c, instead of wrilitiir Iheir names .'" Nothing can preserve our re- 
 publican institutions but a system of intellectual and moral culture, 
 accessible to every child born upon our soil or brouglil to our shores. 
 Unless we thus benevolently co-operate in this great cause of human- 
 ity, tills last and best hope of the oppressed of all nations will vanish 
 from the eartli, and a new and ghostly despotism shall arise and ex- 
 tend its iron sceptre over this our beloved land. Nothing but intelli- 
 gence and virtue universally diffused, can save us from this dread ca- 
 tastrophe. In Protestant Prussia, with a Roman Catholic minority, 
 they understand so well the importance and utility of education, and 
 its power to dissipate the darkness of superstition, always tyrannical, 
 that every child is by law compelled to be educated, and that morally 
 as well as intellectually. 
 
 There remains an important point or two yet to be noticed. The 
 gentleman is exceedingly squeamish in his avowals of this oatb, which 
 forever binds the Roman priesthood to tiie court of Rome. He admits, 
 however, that after due consultation or meditation had, he took the 
 oath, clauses of which constrain him to " increase and advance the 
 authority of the pope," and to " persecute and oppose heretics and 
 schismalics." He s&y s persequor means not to persecute. 
 
 Bishop Purcell. It means to follow, and nothing more. 
 
 Mk. Cainipbell. It is a generic term, and means to follow with the 
 sword or faggot, or the hand or foot, only in the way of opposition, 
 however. Sequor is to follow, but persequor is to follow with ven- 
 geance. 
 
 I have learned this morning that it can be proved under oath that all 
 the bishops in America have taken this oath ; and that without equiv- 
 ocation or mental reservation ; of which fact, however, I was before 
 apprised : but the gentleman himself has admitted it, and I pursue it 
 no further. I am, however, disappointed, to observe, that he has been 
 at no pains to reconcile his allegiance to two governments so singu- 
 larly repugnant to each other in all their elements and tendencies. 
 
 My friend fled from persecution in Ireland ! From paying tithes, I 
 suppose, according to the Levitical law ! Well, this tithe system is 
 a falling concern, and will soon pass away. But is not this his perse- 
 cution an ingenious off-set to fifty millions of martyrs sacrificed by 
 the papal power?! Some are whispering that this Roman persecu- 
 ting spirit is dying away as the tithe system. Let those, however, 
 who think so, in addition, to what I have already read from va- 
 rious sources, accept a few words from the "Plea for the West" — 
 From the 2d. ed. of M. Aignan of the French Academy in Paris, A. 
 D., 1818. 
 
 " I'hssiiig to the 10th article of the Concordat, in wiiich it is said that his Most 
 Christian iMajesty shall employ, in concert wilh the Holy Father, all the means 
 in his power to cause to cease.'as soon as possible, all the disorders and obstacles 
 which obstruct the welfare of relijc'on and the execution of the laws of the 
 church — were [the Protestants] to ask (although the profuse shedding of their 
 blood might have informed them,) What are the laws of the church? The acts 
 of Pius VII. himself, and the writings on which the church rests her authority 
 would answer, THE LXTER.MINATIO-N OF HERr.TICS, THE CONFISCATION 01' 
 THF.IR GOODS, AND THEIR PRIVATION OF EVERY CIVIL PRIVILEGE." 
 
 To this the author subjoins a note: "Certain portions of real estate which had
 
 K03IAN CATHOLIC RELIGIO'. 351 
 
 belon'i^'ecl to ecclesiastics, had passed into the hands of Protestant princes. Pius VII. 
 in 1805, complained of it to his nunrio residing- at Vienna; and reminded him that, 
 according to the laws of the cliurch, not only could not heretirs possess ec- 
 clesiastical property, but tliat also they coulti not possess any property whatever, 
 since the crime of hertsy ought to be punished by the confiscation of goods. 
 He added that tiie suI)jectsof a jirinre, who is a heretic, should be released from 
 every duty to him, freed from all obli°:ation and all homage. ' In truth,' said he, 
 •we have'fdilen on times so calamitous, and so humiliating to the spouse of Jesus 
 Christ, that it is not possible for her to practise, nor expedient to recall so holy 
 maxims; ami she is forced to interrupt the course of her just severities against 
 the enemies of the faith. But if she cannot exercise her right to depose the 
 parlizans of iieresy from their principalities, and declare that they have forfeited 
 all their goods; can she ever permit that, to enrich themselves, they should 
 despoil her of her own proper dominions? What a subject of derision— would 
 she not present to these very heretics and unbelievers, who, while they insulted 
 her erief, would say they had discovered the method of rendering her tolerant? 
 
 "The same pont'itT in'his instructions to his agents in Poland, given in 1808, 
 professes this doctrine, that the laws oC the church do not recognir.e any civil 
 privileges as belonging to persons not Catholic; that their marriages arc not 
 valid; that thry can live only in concubinage; that their children, being bas- 
 tards, are incapacitated to inherit; tliat the Catholics themselves are not validljr 
 married, except they are united according to the rules prescribed bv the couitof 
 Rome; and that, when they are married accordinrjto these rules, tlicir marriage 
 is vali'l, had th<y in other respects infringed all the laws of their country." — 
 Quarterly Register, vol. 3. p. 89. 
 
 Remember then, that accordintr to the acts of Pius VII. the laws of 
 the church ititi command the cxiermination of heretics — the confiscation 
 of their goods, and their deprivation of every privilesic — that Protestanti 
 nave no privileires ,• and that the present calm is owing, not to a change 
 of spirit, but of times : for saj's the pope : " the times arc so calamitous 
 — that the church is forced to interrupt the course of her jl'ST severities 
 against the ene.mies of the faith !" These are truly calamitous 
 times!! Alas for prosperous days ! 
 
 I am indeed sorry that our debate has been so much out of logical 
 order. An issue has never been fairly and fully lurnicd on one of my 
 propositions. INly friend occupied the ground which lie chose. He 
 was respondent. How he has responded, it remains for others to 
 judge. He has been positive and declamatory enough, and very scru- 
 pulous about " mint, anise and cummin :" but how have the great to- 
 pics been met? I rejoice, however, that it will go to the public, as it 
 was spoken, and that the public will read and judge. 
 
 I have heard a hint that the gentleman is about to disprove tlie fact 
 of the anathema or bishop's curse by introducing Sterne, turning into 
 ridicule the curses pronounced centuries before he was born. The 
 humor of Sterne found the reality of the cur.se, or he would not have 
 laughed at it. 
 
 The gentleman has now to close t'.ie d(l)atc. The usages of discus- 
 sion forbid the introduction of new matter in the last speech. Ho will 
 probably again tfdl you of ('atbolie devotion to Ainerican liberty, and 
 of his brollii-r soldiers, that fmight in the Kevolulionary war. For, by 
 such argtimenis he has generally met the decrees ofcouncils, the bulls 
 of popes, the records of history, and the precepts of the aposlliji. IJut 
 before the devotion of a few lloman Catholic soldiers to the cause of 
 the Revolution can be accepted as proof of Roman ("atludic lovo of 
 either civil or religious liberty, it inusl be asrertaimd, wluibrr the 
 hatred of Protexlanl Kngland, rather than the love of rational liberty, 
 instigated those soldiers that served during that war. For my part, I
 
 352 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 incline to the opinion that the hatred of England was at least as strong 
 an impulse to their efforts as the love of liberty. — But — [Time ex- 
 pired.] 
 
 THvclve o'clock, M. 
 Bishop Purcell rises — 
 
 My friends, in order to meet one of the last allegations of the gen- 
 tleman, namely, that the Catholic church has a law, making Protest- 
 ant children illegitimate ; I know of no law to that effect, which ad- 
 mits of the least practical difficulty; but I will tell you where it i3 
 still in force, and imposes civil disabilities and disqualifications of the 
 most odious character. It is in a Protestant country. And, here, let 
 me say, once for all, that I judge too highly of the character of Scots- 
 men and Englishmen, and know too well that they detest these hiW3 
 as much as 1 do, to mean anything disrespectful to them, when I al- 
 lude to the acts of the British government, or the malpractices of in- 
 dividuals. Scotland has done much for science. Eagle-like she has 
 soared to its sunniest heights. May she battle, like the Bruce, by the 
 side of O'Connell, for human rights. But, facts are facts. Now, 
 a Unitarian minister, Mr. Dewey, whom I have already quoted, says: 
 
 " The dissenters aie demanding to be nlicved from their burdens. I'etitions 
 to parliament, either for an entire abolition of the union between cliiirch and 
 state, or for an essential modification of that union, have, it is well known, be- 
 come matters of almost every day occurrence. There is a determination on this 
 point, which must at length succeed; and I must say, indeed, from my own im- 
 pressions about the ftarc/s/iips of the case, that if the dissenters — if those whose con- 
 sciences and properly and personal respectahilily are alike invaded by the church 
 establishment, will not cause their voice, and the voice of justice to be heard, they 
 
 deserve to be oppressed If the church endowments were a bequest for the 
 
 benefit of any particular class of christians, it was for the Catholics. The lar- 
 gest portion of them were actually Catholic endowments. If it is proper that 
 they should be diverted from that original design at all, it ought at least to be 
 
 done in aid and furtherance of the whole religion of the countr}- No man 
 
 I think, can travel through this countrj- without knovving that the dissenters are 
 frequently treated in a manner amounting to absolute indignity! As to the in- 
 juslice of the system, it is well known. The dissenter is excluded from the uni- 
 versities. In fact, he can neither be born, nor ba|)tized, nor married, nor buried, 
 but under the opprobrium of the law. That is to say, there can be no legal regis- 
 tration of his birth; his baptismal certificate does not entitle him to legal marriage: 
 and he can reteive neither marriage, nor burial from the hands of his own pastor. 
 
 And now what is alleged in defence of this state of things? No principle or 
 pretence of justice that I have ever heard, but only the principle of expedi- 
 ency. It is said that monopoly and exclusion here are necessary. It is said that 
 religion cannot be supported in dignity and honor, without ample endowments 
 and rich benefices." Vol. I. p. 143. 
 
 Such is the state of England in the enlightened nineteenth century, 
 and a pretty state it certainly is ! Thus, on incontrovertible testimony, 
 that of the nation at large, are monopoly and exclusion necessary to the 
 support of a system which Mr. Campbell has solemnly declared to bo 
 the only bulwark of the Protestant religion ! ! 
 
 My friends, for those tremendous curses which you have heard, and 
 at which you have laughed so heartily ! I must spoil or heighten the 
 fun by telling you that they are not Catholic curses, nor yet Protes- 
 tant curses exactly, but that they are the jeu d'esprit of a Protestant 
 minister, Lawrence Sterne, all found in this book (exhibiting it,) 
 which I have had brought me, this moment, from a book store, written 
 by that worthy parson himself, and one of the most grossly obscerie 
 in the English language ! ! Verily, my opponent has given me, in this 
 finale, a measure of revenge which I would not, myself, have asked
 
 R05IA?f CATHOLIC EELIGIOX. 353 
 
 for. And he had these curses, stowed away for years, on that bit of 
 soiled paper, to be produced as the coup de grace to the Catholics, at 
 the close of this debate. I saw these curses, when some waggish 
 wight had them published, in Philadelphia ; and the moment he men- 
 tioned them, I wrote on my notes, ♦' Sterne," " Tristram Shandy," and 
 sent for the book ! Dr. Slop cuts his finger, untying a certain case of 
 instruments : he whistles Lillebulero, to ease the pain ; and Uncle 
 Toby, or his nephew, with Cervantic gravity, swears by Juno's beard 
 to the genuineness of these curses, and hands them to Dr. Slop, to 
 read by way of an anodyne ! But, seriously, in the 28th chapter of 
 Deuteronomy, are to be found curses, as awful as these here pro- 
 nounced. Must we mock God that inspired, or the scripture that re- 
 cords them] Now the bible itself is turned into ridicule by the gentleman. 
 Christian charity and common sense, truth and justice, require im- 
 peratively, that no one should be condemned without a hearing, or 
 charged with holding sentiments which he disavows. Here is the 
 fullest, the clearest, the most unequivocal disavowal, of the doctrine 
 of the pope's deposing power. The Catholics do not believe that he 
 has any such power. We would be among the first to oppose him in 
 its exercise ; and we would be neither heretics nor bad Catholics; and 
 we each of us bishops swear the very words of the oath : "Fersequar 
 et impugnabo, salvo nuo ordinc^'' in the sense specified, which is the 
 only true sense, the assumption of any such power by the pope, or the 
 pope for the assumption of any such power. For ten centuries this 
 
 POWER WAS NEVER CLAIMED BY ANY POPE. 1t CAN, THEREFORE, BE NO 
 
 PART OF Catholic doctrine. It has not gained one foot of land 
 
 FOR THE POPE. Jt IS NOT ANY WHERE BELIEVED, OR ACTED UPON, Ilf 
 
 THE Catholic church. Nor can it be, at this late day, estab- 
 lished, IF ANY man COULD BE FOUND MAD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE AT- 
 TEMPT. Let these go before the American people, as the real princi- 
 ples of Catholics concerning the power of the pope. And if we must 
 pronounce a judgment on the past, let it be remembered, that when 
 the pope did use this power, it was when appealed to as a common 
 father, and in favor of tiic oppressed ! We should go back, in spirit, 
 to former times, when we undertake to judge them. We should un- 
 derstand the condition of society at the period ; we should know the 
 circumstances, general and particular, which controlled or influenced 
 the great events recorded in history. We should not quarrel with our 
 ancestors, because they did not possess knowledge which we possess; 
 nor flatter ourselves that we are vastly their betters, because of theso 
 adventitious advantages ; while they manifestly surpass us in others 
 of greater value, to the Christian, the moralist, the artist. They had 
 the substance of good things : we seem to be content with the shadow 
 of them. The very efforts now made by fanatical preachers, and pe- 
 titioners to congress, to proscribe Roman C'atholics, clearly show that 
 we are far behind ihem in the regard for truth, and the exercise of 
 toleration. I^et it never be forgotten, what the sect was, tf what reli- 
 gion the men were, who firnl petitioned congreii.i, in thin free mtintry, to 
 rei'rict, or, to use a more appropriate word, to abolith liberty of conscience., 
 and Inform n Christian parti/ in politics. They were not Roman Catholics. 
 The Hull ofCJrpgory XVI. censures bad books. He condemns not 
 the liberty, but the licentiousness of th<' press. And is he not right! 
 Can there be a greater corrupter of morals than bad books 1 Dia not 
 2 K 2 45
 
 3.-) 1 
 
 DKH.VTK 0.\ THK 
 
 St. Paul burn bad books to llic amount of 5000 pieces of silver, ag wo 
 read in Acts xix. 191 Is it not actionable in Knjrland and the United 
 States to publish books against the existence of (Jod? You see what 
 one-sided views, some would be grcrat men can take, of tlie doings of 
 popes. The gentleman blew up the bible, and all the mysteries of 
 Christianity, and himself with them, when he tried to blast the rock 
 of Peter; is it wonderful that he should implicate St. Paul, and Eng- 
 lish and American common and statute law, when he would blow up 
 tiie good old i)ope, Gregory XVI. I '^^ 
 
 In a rescript addressed by his holiness Pius VII, to tha vicars apos- 
 tolic of Great Britain, dated the 8lh of April, 1820, his holiness ex- 
 horts them to take care that 
 
 " The faithful abslKin from irafling- the wirkcd bool<s in which in these calam- 
 itous times, our religion is assailed from all sides; and thai they should be strenRth- 
 ened in taith and good ^vorks, by the reading of pious books, and particularly th« 
 Holy scriptures, in editions approved by the rhurrh— you preceding them by word 
 and example." "Ut a perversorum libroruin lectione,quibu»,calamitosissiniis hisce 
 temporibussancta nostra Religio undique impetitur, abstineant; ut piorum libro- 
 rum, pra-sertimscripturarum sacrarum lectione, in editionibus ab Ecclesia appro- 
 batis in fide et in boms opcribus, vobis verbo et cxemplopncuntibus.coiiforten- 
 tur." 
 
 ' In the 
 
 The Index is a book of which I have never had a copy ; and'no'Ca- 
 tholic, that I know of, in the United States, has ever seen it. The 
 law of nature is as much of an " Index" as that volume, for it forbids 
 us to read bad books which the index-finger of conscience points to 
 ns as evil, with the word — Beware ! The gentleman greatly mis- 
 takes the Catholic doctrine, the morals of Catholics, the politics, the 
 intellects of Catholics. I trust, as he becomes more enlightened, he 
 will think better of them. I am sure this audience, and the public, 
 will. All see by the crowds of Catholics thronging, to the very last 
 moment, to this debate, how free and fearless of the investigation of 
 their faith they are, and feel. They have had the full benefit of all 
 the gentleman's sophistry and extracts ; and the effect is infinitely 
 better for Catholicism than any sermon that I, or any Catholic bishop 
 in the union, has ever preached to them. They see that, with all the 
 gentleman's learning and talents, he has utterly failed to establish a 
 single one of his propositions. Hence they will be more attached to 
 their faith than ever. 
 
 As to the deposing power, I may recall to your recollection the fact 
 that five great universities of Europe were consulted by William Pitt, 
 and they all, in the most solemn language, reprobated such a doctrine. 
 Their decisions may appear in an appendix, if we publish one. I 
 have not time to read them now. In Millner's End of controversy, 
 and Charles Butler's memoirs of English, Irish and Scottish Catholica, 
 ■we'll find these matters fairly stated and discussed. 
 
 There is more liberty in Rome than the gentleman gives it credit 
 for. There is a Protestant church, even in Rome, where service is 
 regularly performed according to the Episcopalian rite. The Jews 
 are not any where more charitably treated, than in the eternal city. 
 Last year, they presented a splendid copy of the Holy Bible, or some 
 other sacred book, to the pope, as a token of their gratitude. 
 
 The gentleman calls the system of tithes a dying system. It has
 
 boma:^ catholic religion. 355 
 
 indeed been a dying system. It has slain its thousands, and made 
 the condition of the living worse than that of the dead. 
 
 Judge Hall, of this place, has treated the question discussed, more 
 learnedly and eloquently than my worthy opponent or myself. I Avill 
 give his remarks the place to which they are so well entitled for 
 candor and liberality. 
 
 "This question has become so important in the United States, that it is time to 
 begin to inquire into its bearing.% and to know whether the public are really io- 
 tereited in the excitenietit-which has been gotten up with unusual industry, and 
 has been kept alive with a pertinacity that has seldom been equaled. For seve- 
 ral years past the religious protestant papers of our country, with but few ex- 
 ceptions, have teeniecT with virulent attacks against the Catholics, and cspeciall^T 
 with paragraphs charging them substantially with designs hostile to our free in-^ 
 ititutions, and with a systematic oppo«Ltion to the spread of all free inquiry and 
 liberal knowledge. These are grave charges, involving consequences of serious 
 import, and sucn as should not be believed or disbelieved upon mere rumor, or 
 permitted to rest upon any vague hypothesis; because they are of a nature which 
 renders theai susceptible of proof The spirit of our institutions requires that 
 these questions should be thus examined. We profess to guaranty to every in- 
 habitant of our country, certain rights, in the enjoyment of which he shall not 
 be molested, except through the instrumentality of a process of law which is 
 clearly indicated. Life, liberty, property, reputation, are thus guarded — and 
 equally sacred is the right secured to every man, to ' worship God according 
 to the' dictates of his own conscience." 
 
 But it is iille to talk of these inestimable right*, as having any efficacious ex- 
 istence, if the various checks and sanctions, thrown around them by our consti- 
 tution and laws, may be evaded, and a lawless majority, with a high hand, ravish 
 them by force from a few individuals who may be eflectually outlawed by a per- 
 ycrted public ojiinion, produced by calumny and clamor, it is worse than idle, 
 it is wicked, to talk of liberty, while a majority, having no other right than that 
 of the strongest, persist in bfajting the character of uiioflending individuals by 
 calumny, and in oppressing them by direct violence upon their persons and 
 property, not only without evidence of their delin<iuency, but against evidence; 
 not only without law, but in violation of law — and merely because they belong 
 to an unpopular denoiniiiation. 
 
 The very fact that the Roman Catholics nio, and can be with imi)unity, thu* 
 trampled upon, in a country like ours, affords in itself the iiidst conclusive 
 evidence of the groundlessness of the fears, which are entertained by some 
 respecting them. Without the power to protect iheniM-lves, in the enjoyment 
 of the ordinary rightn of ritiiecuhiii, and with a current of prejudice s< tting so 
 •trongly agaiiiit tlnin, thai ihey find safity only in bending mtikly to the storm, 
 how idle, how puerile, how disingenuous il it, to rave us some have done, of the 
 dmnrer of Catholic inllucnre! 
 
 We repeat that this is a (question which mudt rest upon testiiiiony. The 
 American people arc too intelligent, toojust, too mngnanimoiM, to sndcr the tem- 
 porary delusion by which so many hiive been blinder!, to settle doivn into a per- 
 manent national preju<lirc, and to opjireis one christian drnoiiiimHioii at the 
 bidding of others without some jiroof, or some ri-asonalde arpumtiit. 
 
 We have not yet seen any eviileiire in the various publimtioni that have 
 reached ui. of any unfairiHM on the part of the Catholirs, in the piopngntion 
 of their religious iloi trines. If they are active, prrsivering, and ingenious, in 
 their ittrmnti to gain converts, and if they are successful in securing (he coun- 
 trnanrr anil support of those who mniiitHin the same form of belief In other 
 coiinlrirs. these we iiniigiiir, are tlie |i'(;iliiii«te proofs of christian n »l and sin- 
 cerity. Ill rel.ilion to proleslniil lerts, Ihey are certainly «o rstiinnted ; and wo 
 are yet to l«srn. why the ordinarv lawt i)( evidriicr are to be set aaide in refer- 
 ence to this denomination, and why the iiii«>ionnry spirit which i« «o pruiirwor- 
 thy in others, should he ihought so wirkrd niul to danceroiis in (lirni. 
 
 Let ui inquire iato this mallrr calmly. Why is it that Ihr Cntliolics are pur- 
 •lied with siirh pertinacity, with such viiidiclivrnrs*, «ith such nilhlin iiiale\o- 
 lencr? Whrr.innot llmr |>cculiar opinions be opposed by Brtciiiiu iil, by per- 
 ■iiaiiuii, by reiuonMrarice, as one chritlian seel should oppose f »<h other? »\ « 
 •peak kindly of the Jew, and even of the hrotbcn; there arc those that lo\e a
 
 856 DEBATE ON TU£ 
 
 Negro or a Cherokee even better than their omi flesh and blood ; but a Catholic 
 if an abomination, for whom there is no taw, no charity, no bond of christian 
 fraternity. 
 
 These" reflections rise naturally out of the recent proceedings in relation to 
 the Roman Cathblics. A nunnery has been deinolisheil by an infuriated mob — 
 a small conimunity of refined and unprofectetl feiuales, lawfully and usefully en- 
 gaged in the tuition of children, whose parents have voluntarily committed them 
 to their care, have been driven from their home — yet the perpetrators have es- 
 caped punishment, and the act, if not openly excused, is winked at, by protestant 
 christians. The outrage was public, extensive, and undeniable; and a most re- 
 spectable committee, who investigated all the fart*, have shown tliat it was un- 
 provoked — a mere wanton ebullition of savage malignity. Yet the sympathies 
 of a large portion of the protestant conimunit\ arc untouched. 
 
 [s another instance required, of tiie pervading ch.Tracter of this prejudice? 
 How common has been the expedient, employed by missionaries Ironi the west, 
 in the eastern states, of raising money for education or for rtlig;on upon the al- 
 legation that it was necessary to |)revent the ascendency of the catholics. How 
 o''ten has it been asserted, throughout the last ten years, that this was the chosen 
 field on which tlie papists had erected their standard, and where tiie battle must 
 be fought for civil and religious liberty; What t;iles of horror have been poured 
 into the ears of the confiding children of the pilgrims — of young men emigrat- 
 ing to the west, marrying catholic ladies, and coUapsiiig without a struggle into 
 the arms ofRomanisiii — of splendid edilices undermined by profound dungeons, 
 prepared for the reception of heretic republicans — of boxt-s of fiiearms secretly 
 transported into hidden receptacles, in tlie very bosoms of our lluurishing cities, 
 of vast and widely ramified European ronspiracits by which Irish catholics are 
 suddenlv converted into lovers of monarch) , and obcditnt instruments of kings! 
 
 A prejudice so indomitable and so blind, could not f;iil, in an ingenious and en^ 
 tcrprising land like ours, to be made the subject of pecuniary sptculation; accord- 
 ingly we find such works as the 'Master Key to Popery,' 'Secrets of I'emale 
 Convents,' and ' Six Months in a Convent,' manufactured with a distinct view 
 to makinj^ a profit out of this diseased state of the public mind. The abuse of 
 the catholics therefore is not merely matter of ])aity rancor, but, is a regular 
 trade, and the compilation of anti-catholic books of the character alluded to, has 
 become a part of the regular industry of the country, as much as tlie making of 
 nutmegs, or the construction of clocks. 
 
 Philosophy sanctions the belief, that power held by any set of niefl without 
 restraint or competition, is liable to abuse; and history leaches the humiliating 
 fact tliat power thus held has always been abused. To inquire who has been 
 the greatest aggressor against the rights of luiaian nature, when all who have 
 been tempted have evinced a common propensity to tiaiiiple upon the laws of 
 justice and benevolence, would be an unprofitable procedure. The reformers 
 punished heresy by death as well as the catholics; and the murders perpetrated 
 Dy intolerance, in the reign of F.li/.abeth, were not less atrocious than those 
 which occurred under ' the bloody Mary.' We might even come nearer home, 
 and point to colonies on our own continent, planted by men professing to luive 
 fled from religious persecution, who not only excluded from all civil and politi- 
 cal rights those \vho were separated from them by only slight sliades of religi- 
 ous belief, but persecuted many even to death, for heicy and witchcraft. Yet 
 these things are not taken into the calculation, and the catholics are assumed, 
 without examin.-ition, to be exclusively and especially prone to the sins of op- 
 pression and cruelty. 
 
 The french catholics, at a very early period, commenced a system of niissiong 
 for the conversion of the Indians, and were remarkably successful in gaining 
 converts, and conciliating the confidence and affections ol' the tribes. Wliilc tie 
 Pequods and other northern tribes were becoming exterminated, or sold into 
 slavery, the more fortunate savage of the Mississippi was listf nin^ to the piouu 
 counsels of the catholic missionary. — This is another fact, which deserves to be 
 remembered, and which should be weighed in the examination of the teiliniony. 
 It shews that the catholic appetite for cruelty is not quite so keen as is usually 
 imagined, and that they exercised, of choice, an expainive benevolence, at a peri- 
 od when protestant", similarly situated, were blood-thirsty and rapacious. 
 
 Advancin" a little further in point of time, we find a number of colonies ad- 
 vancing rapidly towards prosperity, on our Atlantic sea board. In point ofciiil
 
 EOMAN CATHOLIC REUGION. 357 
 
 EfDrernmcnt Ihey were somewhat detached, each raakiog' iUi own municipal 
 laws, and there being in each a predoniinance of the inOueuee of one religious 
 denomination. We might therefore expect to see the political bias of each sect 
 carried out into practice, and it is curious to examine how far such was the fact. 
 It is the more curious, because the writers and orators of one branch of this 
 family of republics, are in the habit of attributing to theirown fathers, the prin- 
 ciples of religious and political toleration, which became established throughout 
 the whole, and are now the boast and pride of our nation. The impartial record 
 of history atlbrds on this subject a proof alike honorable to all, but which re- 
 bukes alike the sectional or sectarian vanity of each. New-England was settled 
 by English puritans. New- York by Dutch protestants, Pennsylvania by Quakers, 
 Maryland by Catholics, V'irginia by the Episcopalian adherents of the Stuarts, 
 and South Carolina by a mingled population of roundheads and cavaliers from 
 England, and of Erench huguenots — yet the same broad foundations of civil and 
 political liberty were laid smiultancou'ly in them all, and the same spirit of re- 
 sistance animated each community, when the oppressions of the mother country 
 became intolerable. Religious intolerance prevailed in earlv times only in the 
 eastern colonies, but the witchcraft superstition, though most strongly developed 
 there, pervaded some other portions of the new settlements. We shall not ampli- 
 fy our remarks on this topic; it is enough to say, that if the love of monarchy 
 was a component principle of the catholic faith, it was not developed in our 
 country when a fair opportunity was offered for its exercise ; and that in the glo- 
 rious struggle for liberty, for civil and religious emancipation — when our fathers 
 arrayed themselves in defence of the sacred jirinciples involving the whole broad 
 ground of contest between liberty and despotiiin, the catholic and the protestant 
 itood side by side on the battle tield, and in the council, and pledged to their 
 common country, with equal devotedness, their lives, their fortunes, and theirsa- 
 cred honor. Nor should it be forgotten, that in a conllict thus peculiarly mark- 
 ed, !i catholic king was our ally, when the most powerful of protestant govern- 
 ments »vas our emiiiy." 
 
 Now, my friends and fellow citizens, let me have permission to 
 close this debate by the ianoruage of the illustrious VVashingrton, 
 in his answer to tiie patriotic address of the U. S. Catholics. I dis- 
 claim all unkind fi'cliiiirs towards Mr. Cainphel! or any of his friends, 
 and acknowled^.' my frratitude to him lor pncibiiiirr me to ])lac'o my 
 relifjion, iji its proper light, liefore the public. I also beg leave res- 
 pectfully to tender lo this audience my thanks for the dignity of their 
 deportment during this debate. Instead of quarreling about religion 
 we ought to bo enjfaijed in our vocation of love anil peace, as its 
 faithful ministers, and sincere jirofessorH. We have all, a great deal 
 to do to improve the morals of the age, to elevate the standard of 
 literature, to progtiote by such means as all christians approve, the 
 welfare of our common country, and to obtain for our green slate, the fer- 
 tile and flourishin'j, Ohio, a liistinguishcd rank for knowledge, virtue 
 and patriotism, among her fdder and her younger sisters in this fair 
 republic. These are legitimate pursuits, alike pleasing to God, and 
 useful lo man. 'I'he world is large enough for us all. Some can, in 
 the Abraham and Lot way of settling their dinicullicH, feed their 
 flocks in one field, and some in another; and, as Jose|)ii said to his 
 brethren going home lo their father, from Egypt, as we art; going to 
 one heavenly Kalher, " Hce that ye fall not out by the way." (lieads 
 from Washington's lellcr as follows:) 
 
 To THE KoMA.N CATIIOI.ItS I.N THK UMTKD STATES OK AmEHICA. 
 Ocntleiiien — While I now r<reivc with iiiiirh siitisfartion your congraiiilHtioni 
 on my being rnllrd by on uiinniiiiou* vote, to the firat station in my country, I 
 cannot but duly notice your politenon, in offering iin npology for the iiniivoidabia 
 delny . A« that tlelny Irat given you an opportunity of reBli/.ing, in*lenil ot antici- 
 pating, the benefits of the general govrrninent, you tvill du me the justice to be- 
 ieve, that your teilimony of the increase of th* public prosperity, «QhaDCcs tha 
 
 fi
 
 358 DEBATE ON THE 
 
 pleasure, which I shonid otherwise have experienced from your affectionate ad« 
 dress. 
 
 I feel that my conduct, in war and in peace, has met with more general appro- 
 bation than could have reasonably been expected; and I find myself disposed to 
 consider that fortunate circumstance, in a great degree, resulting from the able 
 support, and extraordinary candor, of my fellow-citizens of all denominations. 
 
 The pi-ospect of national prosperity now before us, is truly animating, and 
 ought to excite the exertions of all good men, to establish and secure the happi- 
 ness of their country, in the permanent duration of its freedom and indepen- 
 dence. America, under the smiles of divine providence, the protection of 
 a eood government, and the cultivation of manners, morals, and piety, cannot 
 fail of attaining an uncommon degree of eminence in literature, commerce, agri- 
 culture, improvements at home, and respectability abroad. 
 
 As mankind become more liberal, they will be more apt to allow, that aW tho3e 
 ■who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community, are equally entitled 
 to the protection ^ civil government. I hope ever to see America among the 
 foremost nations in examples of justice and liberality. And I presume that your 
 fellow citizens will notjbrget the patriotic part which you took in the accom- 
 ;plishment of their revolution, and the establishment oj" their government, or the 
 important assistance which they received from a nation in which the Roman 
 Catholic faith is professed. 
 
 I thank you, gentlemen, for your kind concern for roe. While my life and 
 my health shall continue, in whatever situation I may be, it shall be my con- 
 stant endeavor to justify the favorable sentiments which you are pleased to 
 express of my conduct. And may the members of your society in America, ani- 
 mated alone by the pure spirit of Christianity, and still conducting themselves as 
 the faithful subjects of our government, enjoy every temporal and spiritual felicitjr. 
 
 GEORGE WASHINGTON. 
 March, 1790. 
 
 [end of the debate.] 
 
 The following are the extracts referred to on page 224 : — 
 
 English Divines. 
 " Confession to apriest, the minister of pardon and reconciliation, the curatt 
 ofsouls, and the guide oJ" consciences, is of so great use and benefit, to all that 
 are heavy laden with their sins, that they who carelessly "and causelessly neglect 
 it, are neither lovers of the peace of consciences, nor careful for the advantage 
 of their souls." (Bp. Jer. Taylor, of the doctrine and practice of repentance, 
 chap. X. sec. 4.)" For the publication of our sins to the minister of holy things, 
 
 TOUTOv IX" fiv /.oyov, Sv IX" '. imSliiif tSiv ra>/iXTtxwv trxitnv, said Jiosil, (Regul. 
 
 Brev. 229,) is just like the manifestation of the diseases of our body to the phys- 
 ician for God hath appointed them, as spiritual physicians." (Taylor, ut supra.) 
 P. S. It has startled many an honest independent, who by cliance has got hold 
 qfanoriginalworkqf sturdy John Calvin, or Martin Luther, when in some well- 
 prized " commentarie ;" some latent passage of " TTie Institutions," he has en- 
 countered sly admissions, well guarded hy cautious ' ifs,' and left to their 0W7i 
 fate without defence or apology, yet savoring much of ancient heresy. .And 
 in the honesty of his ignorance, he has exclaimed, as he returned the dusty 
 volume to its shelf, — Great Calvin! much learning hath made thee mad. The bi- 
 ble, and the bible alone, is the religion of Protestants. Where have been Protes- 
 tants as consistent as the Covenanters and the Puritans? Assigning to Rome 
 the whole body of christian testimony, experience, and wisdom; outspreading, 
 in one hand, the broad banner of private opinion; coolly hanging and burning 
 tkeir brother-democrats with the other; extolling Protestantism as the religion 
 
 of the enlightened; fairly proving it the religion of the ignorant And who are 
 
 they that the bigoted " no bigot" points at, " Romanists," " Pnpishers," " near 
 neighbors to the Babylon of abominations!" They are men who have devoted 
 their lives to the study of the legitimate authorities of doctrine and rite."
 
 ROMA>' CATHOLIC RELIGION. 
 
 359 
 
 This was exhibited and the names read at the close of debate on 
 apostolic succession; 
 
 Tabular view of the order of the Episcopal succession in the prominent (Gen- 
 tile) Diocese* mentioned by Eusebius. 
 
 Bishops of Rome. 
 
 Peter and Paul, according^ to Eusebius, died as martyrs at Rome; after thes« 
 followed, 
 
 1 Linus, 
 
 2 Anencletus, 
 
 3 Clement, 
 
 4 Euarestus, 
 
 5 Alexander, 
 
 9 Pius, 
 
 10 AnicetuSj 
 
 11 Soter, 
 
 12 Eleutherus, 
 
 13 Victor, 
 
 6 XystusorSixtus,14 Zenhyrinus, 
 
 7 Telesphorus, 15 Callislhus, 
 
 16 Urbanus, 
 
 17 Pontianus, 
 
 18 Anteros, 
 
 19 Fabianus, 
 
 20 Cornelius, 
 
 21 Lucius, 
 
 22 Stephanus, 
 
 23 Xystus orSiitus ii, 
 
 24 Diouysius, 
 
 25 Felix, 
 
 26 Eutychiaiius, 
 
 27 Caius, 
 
 28 Marcellinus, 
 
 29 Milliades. 
 
 Bishops of Antioch. 
 6 Theophilus, 11 Zebinas, 
 
 Maxi 
 
 minus. 
 
 8 Serapion, 
 
 9 Asclepiades, 
 10 Philetus, 
 
 12 Babylas, 
 
 13 F'abius, 
 
 14 Demetrianus, 
 
 15 Paul of Samosata 
 
 16 Domnus, 
 
 17 Tima»us, 
 
 18 Cyrillus, 
 
 19 Tyrannus, 
 
 8 Hyginus, 
 
 1 Evodius, 
 
 2 Ignatius, 
 
 3 Heron, 
 
 4 Cornelius, 
 
 5 Eros, 
 
 fcsHops OF Alexandria. 
 The evangelist Mark, esTablished the church there, and after him came, 
 
 1 Annianus, ' ~ 
 
 2 Avilius, 
 
 3 Cerdo, 
 
 4 Primus, 
 
 5 Justus, 
 
 6 Eunienes, 
 
 7 Marcus, 
 
 8 Celadion, 
 
 9 .^rrippinus, 
 10 Julianus, 
 
 11 Demetrius, 
 
 12 Heraclas, 
 
 13 Dionysius, 
 
 14 Maximus, 
 
 15 Theonas, 
 
 16 Peter, 
 
 17 Achillas, 
 
 18 Alexander, 
 
 Bishops of Laodicea. 
 Thelymedres, Socrates, Anatolius, Theodotus, 
 
 Heliodorus, Eusebius of Alexandria, Stephen, 
 
 Bishops of Cesarea. 
 Theopbilas Domnus, Agapius, Eusebius. 
 
 Theoctistus, Theotecnus, 
 
 HaTin? revised some three hundred pages of proof o( this debate, before I 
 left Cincinnati for New Orleans, on the 2nd of March, 1837, I am willing to 
 consider and approve the report, as being substantially correct. I have the ut- 
 most confidence in the honor and honesty of the publishers, Messrs. J. A. James 
 & Co., that the balance of the discussion will be fairly presented to the public. 
 
 + JOHN B. PURCELL, Bishop of Cincinnati. 
 
 alf 
 
 aWnsr read all the proofs of this discusHJon, I cortify, that the reader has, 
 ^' :jinfially, a* correctly an under all the cireuniHt;in( fs could hav(> been' 
 rted, a fair rcprenentation of the whole discussion. 
 
 I^RCII 7, \H\ri. A. CAMniKLL. 
 
 ERRATA. 
 
 The following rrrord rfiraprd the proof render in the first edition, but were 
 afterwards corrected in the plates, and will not appear in any of the following 
 editions. 
 
 Page 32. 6th line from bottom, for "came BccrtUy forward," read " cnm« 
 Pnlilirly forward." 
 " 49. 2.1(1 line from top, for " Protestants have nil concealed," read " Protes- 
 tants have nil conrrded." 
 " 72. 18th line from bottom, for " enlightened," read " unenlightened." 
 " 73. 5th line from bottom, for " (Ae lervant Malchtis," read " drew the 
 
 sword and." 
 " 178. 6th line from top, for" iinim/)or/on/," read" »mfOr/an<."
 
 f 
 
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