Substance of .the ;->neech... 
 in Summing up the Case of the 
 ^np;li3h Ship-builders, on their 
 Petition Respecting Ships milt 
 in India 
 
 John 
 
 By 
 idolphus
 
 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA 
 AT LOS ANGELES
 
 THE 
 
 SUBSTANCE OF THE SPEECH 
 
 JOHN ADOLPHUS, ESQ. 
 
 BEFOKE 
 
 A SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF 
 COMMONS, 
 
 IN SUMMING UP THE CASE OF THE ENGLISH SHIP-BUILDERS, ON 
 THEIR PETITION RESPECTING SHIPS BUILT IN INDIA, 
 
 ON MONDAY, MAY 23, AND TUESDAY, MAY 24, 1814. 
 
 SIR ROBERT PEEL, BART. IN THE CHAIR. 
 
 LONDON: 
 
 ?HINTED BY T. DAVISON, LOMBARD-STREET, WHITEFRIARS; ANJJ 
 SOLD BY J. M. RICHARDSON, CORNHILL. 
 
 1814.
 
 -ft-. 3. 
 
 A 2 7 : 
 
 HOUSE OF COMMONS. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 ON 
 
 EAST INDIA BUILT SHIPPING. 
 
 MONDAY, MAY 23d, 1814. 
 
 (SIR ROBERT PEEL, BAIIT. IN THE CHAIR.) 
 
 MR. ADOLPHUS. 
 
 Mr. Chairman; According to the arrangement 
 that was made in the last sitting of the committee, it now be- 
 comes my duty to sum up the evidence that has been laid before 
 you, and to present such observations upon it as arise in my mind, 
 as being likely to benefit the cause of the English ship-builders, 
 for whom I appear here. Considering the vast importance of the 
 subject ; considering the great length of detail which has been gone 
 into in so many days ; in the examination of thirty-seven witnesses, 
 not to mention the witness who has been examined this morning, if 
 1 had considered principally, or indeed at all, that which would 
 have been most easy and advantageous to myself, as connected 
 with tny duty to those I represent here, I might have petitioned the 
 committee to give me some delay; because it must strike every 
 member, as next to impossible, that any application of the mind, 
 between Friday evening, and Monday morning, can have master- 
 ed and digested all that evidence and mutter which it will be my 
 duty to submit to your consideration. 1 have not requested delay, 
 because I fetl it to be my duty riot to press on the time of the com- 
 mittee unnecessarily, after the patient attention shewn during the 
 whole of this investigation, and which is intitled to the thanks of all 
 who are interested in it. And whatever may be the result of the 
 enquiry, so far as relates to this committee, certainly the course 
 investigation has been left as free and open as the most ardent 
 advocate could desire. I have therefore abstained from asking 
 that favor which naturally I should ask ; but still I am in a situ- 
 
 B
 
 ation to require a great deal of indulgence. I am aware it will 
 not be in my power to imitate the example of my learned friend 
 who opened this case before you; he mastered his subject not 
 only with singular luminousness (if I may use such a word) but 
 with a conciseness calculated to produce double the effect that can 
 be attained in the way I shall do it; but if I encroach on your 
 time, or seem to do so, by recapitulating matter already in your 
 minds, or by bringing subjects together which lie scattered over so 
 large a volume of paper, 1 am obliged to do so, because my task is 
 not the opening of the case by a statement of principles and facts, 
 but the summing up of evidence given as applicable to the princi- 
 ples and in support of the facts, which my learned friend under- 
 took in his opening should be proved before you. Delay might, 
 perhaps, have enabled me to compress the matter a little more, 
 but on an occasion of this kind, I am aware that that which is not 
 detailed may stem to some to be purposely suppressed, and to 
 others it may appear to be injudiciously withheld. My task is 
 difficult, and when I say I have abstained from asking one favor, 
 i only do it for the purpose of laying in my claim to the indul- 
 gence of the committee hereafter, sensible as I am that I shall 
 have much occasion for it. 
 
 Sir, the clients for whom I appear here to day, are men, whose 
 situation and employment, and whose interest in the question now 
 before you, are detailed in a list which has been given in of their 
 establishments, which will be found at page 3-43 of the evidence. 
 For these gentlemen I have here to appear in a situation, which, at 
 the beginning, I do not feel intirely pleasant; they are masters of 
 great and extensive establishments; they must have embarked in 
 those establishments a very large portion of capital, but that 
 alone does not confer respectability ; and 1 feel it awkward to have 
 it to state, that an impression has been made to their disadvantage, 
 which I feel called upon to repel. It has been said, they are 
 were adventurers in the concern, not regularly bred to it, availing 
 themselves of their capital, without knowledge of their business, 
 and that they are in a situation very much the contrary to that of 
 being intitled to respect from parliament or its committee. I beg 
 pardon when I refer to works like this before me, but I know 
 how they have been published, and why. I cannot shut my ears 
 to that which meets me at every corner and turn. It is stated in 
 a work much circulated on the present occasion, and which has 
 been much relied on by others-, and therefore I treat it with more 
 attention than I should another anonymous publication, that they 
 are mere adventurers in the line they have adopted. 
 
 *' There was a time," it is said, " when these Thames built 
 ships were held in estimation, but the builders were then regularly" 
 brought up to the business, resided in their building yards, super- 
 intended the work themselves, and took care to have a certain 
 stock of timber on hand : contentwith moderate gains, and emulou* 
 of acquiring and preserving an estimable character, they inspected
 
 aiinutely every part of the machine : many of them gradually ac- 
 cumulated wealth, and their success stimulated others of larger 
 capital, but unacquainted with the business, to embark in these 
 concerns; the wealth, power, and influence of these men, have 
 driven the old builders out of the market; the building of a ship 
 is now done by task and job. The superintendance of the work 
 is left to the hired builder, who being interested only so far as to 
 get the ship out of hand, follows the example of his employer, and 
 indulges in ease and relaxation: the same principle extends down- 
 wards to the youngest apprentice; the workmanship is slovenly 
 performed, and the ship is shaken to pieces, or founders in the 
 first hard gale of wind ; but the materials are generally as bad as 
 the workmanship; they contract to build ships while the timber is 
 still growing in the forest. We verily believe, that when the 
 ten seventy-tour gun ships were contracted for in 1805, there was 
 not sufficient timber in the whole of the private yards to complete 
 a single ship*." 
 
 Now, Sir, on this subject, I have thought it necessary to interro- 
 gate every witness competent to give an opinion, and I have 
 asked, " Were Messrs. Wigrams and their house regularly bred to 
 the business? Did they serve an apprenticeship ?" " Yes." " Do 
 they reside on the premises and superintend the works going on in 
 their own yard ?" " Yes." " Are they duly and properly employ- 
 ed, and is their stock of materials a proper one to be had ?'* 
 " Yes, certainly,'' has been the answer to all the questions. So 
 I have asked respecting all the other yards, and what have the 
 answers been? uniformly the same. One witness has said, "In all 
 the years I have been in the employ of the yard, Messrs. Brents 
 have drawn the draft of every ship they have built, and have at- 
 tended to the works going on from the commencement to the end 
 of its construction with assiduity and diligence, and with a vigilant 
 inspection." Surely, Sir, it is not fair, when one is representing 
 men of this kind of character to have to clear away first these 
 direct assertions, that they are mere persons of opulence without 
 respectability, that they deny themselves the means which their 
 predecessors used of being respectable, and seek nothing but im- 
 proper ad vantage and gain, no matter what, or whom they sacrifice, 
 so that they can get emolument by their establishments. 
 
 Sir, it has been in evidence before you, that a great number of 
 men depend upon these establishments for support. The evi- 
 dence given on that subject at first had some degree of variety. 
 Some persons carried the number up to four or five thousand, 
 while one witness, Mr. Carter, made it a great deal less; but. he 
 had not such good means of informing himself as the preceding 
 witnesses had. They were personally concerned in the business; 
 he was an overseer of the East India company's ships, but he was 
 
 * Quarterly Review No. 20. p. 476.
 
 not so intimately acquainted with the yards as the other witnesses : 
 however, in the course of the enquiry, it became necessary to put 
 this in a way to bring it somewhat nearer to a certainty, although 
 the means are not absolute : y certain. A paper has been put in, 
 which affords some explanation of the number of men employed, 
 and it will be found on a fair examination of what that paper is, that 
 from four to five thousand, including all artificers together, has 
 been the number employed. That paper was not put in to make 
 any part of our case, but by desire of the committee. Perhaps I 
 may be under the necessity of making an observation upon it by 
 and by. It is an explanatory document to afford certain guides 
 to the mind, and lights to the understanding, in the pursuit of 
 that truth, which must be derived in a great portion from infer- 
 ence and deduction. From that document it appears, that from 
 1813, when the work upon the Thames was in a great degree on 
 the decline; when considerably affected by circumstances I shall 
 have to advert to, the number of shipwrights in the yards of the 
 petitioners was 14? 4, and the number of other artificers 2798, 
 making 4272. In 1S10, when the business 1 suppose was at the 
 best, the number of shipwrights employed was U)H2, and the 
 other artificers 33/9> making a total of 5301. Under these cir- 
 cumstances, I take it, the interest I have to represent (there is 
 a more numerous class of persons, but 1 do not touch on collateral 
 or accidental interests) is that of the proprietors of these yards, 
 and upwards of four thousand persons, to speak within moderate 
 compass, who, in the times of their prosperity, have depended on 
 them for employ and subsistence. 
 
 Sir; it has been in evidence before you, and almost every one of 
 the witnesses who was competent to judge, has repeated, that those 
 establishments depend, almost wholly, for a certainty of retaining 
 their workmen, so as to be in readiness to undertake repairs of 
 king's ships and of merchant ships, as may be required, on build- 
 ing the large shipping for the East India company. That has been 
 the evidence so often repeated, that I do not think it necessary to 
 advert to the particular passages, but I will give my learned friends 
 references to a do/en places, in which the same thing is asserted 
 and re-asserted on the judgment of the individuals who state it, 
 who have almost all of them the very best means of judging on the 
 subject ; they have been employed or observant in these premises, 
 and know the details of their operations, they know the ability 
 they have to execute any work assigned to them, and though it is 
 stated by them, that king's work, repair of ships in the West India 
 and general trade, and other objects did take up the men at dif- 
 ferent times, still it returns to this; we keep our regular men to- 
 gether by means of the East India building that is our subsist- 
 ence, the East India building the East India building consumes 
 our slock, and enables us to keep up the establishments, and when 
 repairs come in, which require to be done speedily, by taking the 
 men from oil' the ships that are building, we are enabled to per-
 
 form all the work that the public or the merchant's service can 
 require of us. Had they not those men to resort to, (so it was ex- 
 plained by a witness on Friday, and by various witnesses on many 
 occasions) they could not have done that which they have exe- 
 cuted with so much success, namely, fit fleets for sea, and repair 
 ships which have met with accidents at the moment they were re- 
 quired, so that with them there has been no delay or languor of 
 operation, and no injury to the public or to individuals has ever 
 occurred through their negligence in performing their duty. 
 
 Sir ; the royal navy has been, I am almost afraid to use the term, 
 considering the constructions it will be subject to, it has been 
 (and I assert it as my case) eminently benefited by the exertion 
 of these proprietors of the yards in the way of their business j 
 they have built, as I understand, of the present navy, of one size 
 and another, 5/0 of the ships which now constitute the strength 
 of the country. Their efforts in war have always been fully equal 
 to that which the government was pleased to require of them ; 
 they have never failed in any exertion that could be asked for; 
 and, to use the words of one of the witnesses whom we called 
 (which will be found in page 146) " When called upon in time 
 of war, they can exert themselves in a manner to astonish the 
 world: what was done in the last war was considered far beyond 
 the extent of their means, but if they had what we call our na- 
 tural trade, or our usual natural English trade, I have no doubt 
 those yards would be very amply and fully employed." This is 
 the testimony concerning them given by one of the witnesses. 
 When I come to detail the particulars of their case, and to advert 
 to some circumstances affecting them, I shall have to make more 
 observations upon the subject; but upon the representation of 
 their having supplied those ships, I have no hesitation in saying, 
 they have a claim to be considered as great benefactors to the 
 country, by the service they have rendered to the navy. No 
 work has been delayed through them; no contract has failed 
 that has been entrusted to them ; they have had the confidence 
 of those who could employ them ; and they have deserved it, 
 by an undeviating attention to the orders they have received, 
 and by the goodness of their materials, and the perfection of 
 their workmanship. I know that in saying so, I take an issue 
 where I may be met with contradiction, but here I am bound 
 not to recede from my proposition. I state it as part of my 
 case, that they have a claim to these merits; and it is a point 
 upon which I challenge contradiction, either as to the whole, or 
 any part of my statement. 
 
 Sir, the employment they have received from government, has 
 led to a suspicion that they have made that a part of their specu- 
 lation, and have enlarged their premises accordingly. That line 
 of cross examination has been pursued to considerable extent in 
 this inquiry, asking, Have not your slips been increased for this 
 purpose; and have not your establishments received additional re-
 
 inforcement r could you have carried on all this business had 
 your other employ been what you hud a right to expect ? The 
 answer has been ; we have undertaken this in aid of the public, 
 and not in extension of our establishments; we have not added 
 a slip to the number we held before, nor is our number of men 
 augmented on that account; the quantum of labour has been in- 
 creased, but we are not aware that the number of our workmen 
 has increased; we have found means within ourselves, without 
 extending our establishments, to do all the public service required 
 of us. 
 
 Sir, I would beg to refer the committee to page 145 of the 
 evidence; it is part of the testimony of the same person, whom I 
 have before quoted in answer to this question. " Suppose there 
 were in addition to that,'' (speaking of the India ships the wit- 
 ness had before stated to be built annually,) " seven or eight 
 seventy fours, do you think the establishments could be sufficient 
 for that ?" the answer is, ** I think the means the mother country 
 possesses to be so extensive, that we could build ships for the 
 whole of Europe." Now, to be sure, it is meeting the question by 
 an answer which goes beyond its extent, but it shews the witness's 
 knowledge and conviction that there is no difficulty; but that 
 the London builders are adequate to every thing that can be re- 
 quired of them, as they have shewn they were to every thing that 
 has been required of them. 
 
 Now, Sir, at the close of a war wherein so much has been done; 
 at a time when they have had their exertions pressed on in every 
 way ; not merely in those buildings which add, it is supposed, to 
 their profits ; not only in those circumstances which have contri- 
 buted to their benefit; but also in many others, which have made, 
 them feel the pressure of the times; what is their state when a 
 peace is approaching ? Their yards are reduced to a state of ab- 
 solute desolation ; to a state which the witnesses describe with 
 more or less of good-humour, according to their several complex- 
 ions and dispositions : one saying they looked on a week-day as if 
 it were Sunday, the men walking about and doing nothing; an- 
 other, that if the present slackness prevails in the yards, you can 
 expect nothing but a good crop of grass there: all equally 
 amounting to an expression that there is no business going on in 
 their yards. The list put in demonstrates the same fact ; and the 
 establishments which gave bread to four thousand men, and to 
 their families, are now reduced to the maintenance of two or three 
 hundred, and not more than that among them all. One does not 
 naturally look at such a reverse of fortune, and looking at it won- 
 der that the sufterers should apply to those who have the power to 
 relieve them, in a moment when a question is in agitation tending 
 utterly to destroy their change of tver having any thing to do in 
 those yards; and that they call the attention of the legislature to 
 a case which 1 hope and trust we shall be found to have proved 
 decisively in their favour.
 
 Sir, one person was called to prove what is the actual state of 
 those yards ; (and it was on that occasion the paper I have ad- 
 verted to became a subject of inquiry). He stated that he had 
 gone to the yards and found nothing- doing. It was objected 
 that he might have gone at a time when the men were acci- 
 dentally absent ; that he might have chosen his time for that 
 purpose. I should think not; because if there were ships to 
 repair they could not be absent ; and that man could never have 
 seen the yards without knowing ships were there or not. If 
 there were not ships building or repairing on which to employ 
 the men, certainly there could be no men to be employed ; and 
 therefore it was quite indifferent at what time he went. However, 
 it was at that period the paper was called for, not by us, but 
 by the committee, in the course of their inquiry, and by my 
 learned friends, who had a right to watch the case, and see that 
 the most satisfactory evidence was put in. That is the way in 
 which it has been produced, and so I trust it will be treated when 
 my learned friends come to observe on it ; not as making any 
 part of our case, but as being one of those documents from which 
 they may draw what inference they please. The fact is by other 
 means sufficiently proved, that these establishments, capable of 
 doing so much work, are in a state of nakedness and desolation : 
 there is nothing doing in them hardly a hammer to be heard, 
 and nothing like business of extent or importance carrying on. 
 
 Sir, with respect to the men, and I wish to touch upon their case 
 here and dismiss it entirely, because it is painful to advert to it. 
 Their position is most wretched. I say I wish to touch upon 
 their case here and dismiss it entirely, not because 1 think the 
 miseries of four thousand persons and their families unworthy of 
 consideration ; but I should scorn to stand on that, and to be 
 seeming to make a case of mere compassion. The higher objects 
 of political and public interest should be treated more gravely, 
 arid should not be too much mixed with those subjects in which 
 our feelings are appealed to. I do not mean to say that this 
 display of misery is beneath the attention of the committee, or of 
 the house of commons, or of the united legislature; but it is not a 
 fit thing for an advocate, by dwelling on a topic of this kind, to 
 endeavour to gain a temporary purchase on those minds which, on 
 better consideration, might repel his efforts with scorn, I depre- 
 cate such attempts: but I think this a fit subject to be treated 
 with the notice that is due to it, and then to be left to produce its 
 due effect. 
 
 Now, Sir, what are these men ? The shipwrights are men appren- 
 ticed and regularly brought up to that trade ; having no other 
 calling in the world. They are men who must exercise themselves 
 in the trade, during the prime of their lives, with an industry and 
 effort of which there are few examples, in order to gain a support. 
 They are men who have done so; " They are men," says one of 
 the witnesses, " whom I have respected. Men who have earned 
 their own bread, and disdained to be under obligation to any
 
 body." They are now pensioners on the poor's-fund, carryrng 
 deals, as porters, for their daily subsistence, or employing them- 
 selves in borne way between actual mendicancy and their regular 
 labour, because the work is taken away from them, and they 
 have no hopes or means of rinding a substitute for it. 
 
 Sir, it has been insinuated, in a cross-examination, that since 
 this inquiry has begun, many of the men have gone into the 
 king'ft-yards. It is not in evidence ; but it is the only time at 
 which I can advert to such a subject, and 1 am obliged to notice 
 whatever has arisen in the course of the inquiry. If any consi- 
 derable number has gone into those yards within this week or 
 ten days, they have much reason to be thankful. How they are 
 to be employed those who take them must know ; but if there is 
 not an ample occasion for them, it is open to inquiry whether 
 it is not changing the poor-box for another sort of charity, and 
 making the men dependent on the overseers of the dock-yard 
 instead of the overseers of their parishes ; and that is all the 
 change in their situation. But how different is the state of 
 tilings, if this is true, from what it used to be. At the close 
 of the former wars the merchant's yards were a resource for 
 the men from the king's yards, and now the king's yards are to be 
 a refuge for the men from the merchant's yards. Is that an ad- 
 vantage we have gained by the present state of things? or is it 
 not one of those subjects which ought to demand serious atten- 
 tion before that change becomes permanent, under which, in its 
 temporary state, this great evil has arisen; an evil which must 
 continue, so long as the present system is persevered in. 
 
 Of these men (I can only pursue the cross-examination to col- 
 lect the notions of my learned friends', and those who advocate 
 the cause against which 1 appear), it is meant to be said, that they 
 have brought a great deal of the evil on themselves; that they 
 have had exorbitant wages; that they have conspired to raise 
 them ; that they are idle and audacious ; that they have not the 
 merits or industry which they ought to have; and that the busi- 
 ness of London has been overstocked by men from the out-ports. 
 With respect to their gains, I remember a question whether it 
 had not been known that a man has earned a guinea a day. 
 " No," said the witness, " I have heard of such a thing, but I do 
 not ktiow it." But if one man, by any exertion of strength and 
 sagacity, may have performed such a task, that is no medium of 
 their earnings. The medium is that which a man can earn iu 
 regular employment in the course of a day, and that is stated to 
 be five shillings for an ordinary, seven shillings for an extraordi- 
 nary workman; and eight or nine shillings if he will work a great 
 number of extra hours. These are the extravagant wages a man 
 in the prime of his life, not finding employ every day, is supposed 
 to be entitled to. What from thirty to live and thirty shillings a 
 week; or, if he will work fifteen or sixteen hours a day, twelve 
 shillings more to be added in the week, is that beyond the wages 
 of a journeyman taylor or printer, or any man who pursues the most
 
 sedentary occupation of life? Is this to be supposed guch a crimi- 
 nal addition to the gains of these people? Is it to be said that 
 these wages have disentitled them to consideration from the pub- 
 lic ? I trust there is no such proposition likely to be advanced. 
 Viewing the state of the times, and considering what they ought 
 to earn in this extensive metropolis, no charge of that description 
 can be laid against them. These are said to be top workmen, and 
 entitled to top wages. Can there then be any charge against 
 them of extravagance ? 
 
 As to the inquiry respecting combinations, how does that end ? 
 Why, it is stated in evidence, that in the year 1801 they had but 
 three shillings and sixpence a day, and in 1802 they declared 
 their determination not to proceed without five shillings a day. 
 That is the only combination put in evidence. There has not 
 been, among all the departments, any combination since; and / 
 whoever considers the state of the times then, will not say they V 
 demanded too much when they required the means of earning 
 thirty shillings a week ; an indulgence which was granted to every 
 species of journeyman many years before they thought fit to de- 
 mand it ; and they demanded it, not at a time when there was a 
 press of public business on hand, but in 1802, when we happened 
 to be at peace, and when the royal dock-yards no longer afforded 
 them a refuge. 
 
 Sir ; I believe the inquiry respecting the men from the out-ports 
 has not produced any great results; but we all know the metro- 
 polis, in all its businesses and connexions, has been fed from the 
 country ; and it is in the nature of every metropolis to be so. 
 Shipwrights come up, not because they have better wages, as 
 available in the way of wages, but becnuse they have a greater 
 sum of money to receive when the pay day arrives ; and they pre- 
 fer it to the lesser sum paid in the country, although that will 
 support them better. Do I blame them for this error ? No. Do I 
 lament it ? No, I do not, because I think the strength and health 
 of the country should be pressed into ihe use of the metropolis ; 
 and when a man has activity and industry to come here, he ought 
 to come, regulating himself only by the probability of his gaining 
 employment. I do not censure, the spirit; I do not condemn the 
 motive. The desire of acquiring much money, that they may ex- 
 pend it rapidly, is beneficial to the individual and to the commu- 
 nity. Mr. George Chalmers, a political writer, whose opinions I 
 hold in very great respect, speaks of the lower people of this 
 country as "a hard working and free spending people." May 
 they long be entitled to that description, and long have the means 
 of being a free spending people ! That spirit, when regulated by 
 moderation and prudence, adds to the benefit of the community, 
 as well as to their own pleasure. Of the shipwrights it cannot be 
 said they dissipate their time in idleness, because it has appeared 
 in the examination that some of them may take half a day, in the 
 
 c
 
 10 
 
 course of three months, or some may take a day ; but when work 
 was to be done, it was said, they swarmed about it like bees ; no- 
 thing could equal their zeal and good will about every task they 
 were set upon. These are the men I am about to dismiss from 
 your attention, but for whom I ask your compassionate consider- 
 ation ; and I trust they will not be told " You have done your 
 labour ; go, carry deals, or carry the hod, or carry your children 
 to the overseer, or carry what you please, your case is not worth 
 consideration." I trust, Sir, this is not the answer these four 
 thousand people will meet with, especially as their interest is con- 
 nected with that of their employers, whose establishments must 
 fall into decay, unless they find relief on the present occasion. 
 
 Sir; these establishments on the Thames are said to have been 
 in their greatest prosperity about ten years ago; that they have 
 declined since, but more particularly within the last two or three 
 years; and that the total cessation of their work has been within 
 the last six or eight months. Our witnesses say the cause is their 
 being no longer employed about building East India ships ; that 
 returns to the first proposition I advanced, that as the building of 
 the East India ships afforded the basis of their employment, so 
 when that ceases, nothing remains to do. It will be my duty to 
 discuss this subject hereafter at more length as in comparison 
 with the other ships built abroad, and therefore I now pass it by 
 without further observation. 
 
 . Sir; it is intimated on the other side, that this is not the cause of 
 their deficiency of work ; and the contemplation of the peace, it 
 is said, induces people to abstain from building ships; the high 
 prices deter men from laying out their money in building ships, 
 which otherwise would be built. But how is the fact with respect 
 to former periods of war and peace? Has there ever been such a 
 stagnation on former occasions ? " No," sa}s a witness who re- 
 collects the termination of the American war, " no ! no ! no ! no- 
 thing like this ever occurred before, and it cannot be the termi- 
 nation of the \var which, by its natural effect, produces these con- 
 sequences to establishments which have been so long carried on 
 in prosperity." 
 
 The removal of the government building is said to be a main 
 cause of the present distress. tJad the government building 
 never come there, the yards, with their natural means and re- 
 sources, could have been carried on ; true it is, that some portion 
 of the government building may have been a relief to them du- 
 ring the time the India shipping was not there ; true it is, that ten 
 fir frigates in 1813 atfbrded such resources, and that some repairs 
 may be beneficial, but the government building never was the 
 ground-work, nor could it be the support of their establishments. 
 It could not be considered so : it was known their aid would only 
 be called in when government could not do its own work ; and 
 they never considered it certain, but accidental, subject to suspen-
 
 11 
 
 sion and removal, and all the accidenis to which such an inter- 
 course must naturally and inevitably be liable. 
 
 Another cause of the distress has been supposed to be the ex- 
 clusion of our shipping from the continent. What the effect of 
 that has been must be perceived. When that cause was removed; 
 from the time of the Baltic being opened and as the trade became 
 more free; just in proportion to that has been the decline of the 
 trade in these yards. Within the last six mouths, when all chance 
 of the exclusion of British shipping from the continent was done 
 away, that is the time in which the yards have fallen into decay, 
 so that they have not the means of employing a twentieth part of 
 the men that would naturally belong to them. 
 
 The high price of their building will afford, I dare say, more 
 theme for observation. AH these subjects have been, in some sort, 
 touched upon in cross examination, and are all, I have no doubt, 
 topics to be urged in answer to the case we have laid before you. 
 The price has advanced considerably during late years; I do not 
 know the price for ships of large size at this time, but it has ad- 
 vanced from 111. 10s. to about 2Sl. per ton. Who can be judges 
 whether that is or not an unreasonable advance ? if any body, 
 those who have been most in the habit of paying it; and for that 
 purpose I shall refer to the evidence of a gentleman *vho has paid 
 a great deal of money, and been connected with these yards during 
 the whole of his life; who knows the nature of shipping in all 
 parts of the world. Mr. Larkins, who was asked a great many 
 questions about the precise mode of charging in the Thames, about 
 his power of reducing those charges by taxation (as it is termed in 
 Westminster- hall) if immoderate, declared he had that confi- 
 dence in the builders of London, which they had never given him 
 cause to repent, that he had never found occasion to review or re- 
 vise what they had done, and that he hoped his connexion with 
 them on the same basis would last to the end of his days: that 
 would put out of the question any imputation of their making ex- 
 travagant charges ; and all the comparisons I have to make will 
 shew that they are far different from extravagant, and that the ships 
 are cheaper than any ships in the world, the Indian ships only ex- 
 cepted, which put them to such a distance as to shew no chance of 
 our own ships ever prospering where they can be had. 
 
 Is it the outports that build cheaper ? We have had a great 
 deal of evidence upon that subject, and it appears that their build- 
 ing is cheaper in money, but certainly dearer in the effect. That 
 their ships are from fifteen to twenty per cent, lower in price, but 
 that a man lays out money well, who buys the higher priced ship, 
 which is the cheaper in the result. The reason is given, (and I 
 wish to go through the whole of this case with relation to all the 
 reasons given in evidence) and the reasons here are clear and indis- 
 putable. The London ships are dearer in the price ; but, in the 
 first place, their measurement is considerably to the advantage of 
 the purchaser ; they are so built that they gain in tonnage, and give
 
 in efiect that winch the others seem to give like thqin, but. do not 
 give like them ; they are measured at a smaller tonnage than they 
 possess, and the outport ships are measured to the tonnage that 
 they really have, so that there is an advantage of fifteen or twenty 
 per cent, in that circumstance only : the building is certainly bet- 
 ter, it has a better character. I know instances are given of the 
 long duration of Whitby ships, and of captain Cook's preference 
 of a Whitby ship j but it is not particular circumstances, but ge- 
 neral character, derived from the generality of examples, which is in 
 favour of the Thames built ships to a greater degree than the fif- 
 teen or twenty per cent. ; they are higher in price ; the books at 
 Lloyd's give them their stations much longer ; they have the cha- 
 racter of not being built on speculation, while it is known that the 
 country ships have been built in that way ; so that as it has been 
 said by the witnesses, no character is risked in the selling them, 
 but the buyer and seller meet, one to put off his goods, and the 
 other to exercise his judgment in buying them. These are the 
 ships which it may be very convenient to purchace when insurance 
 is high, and when it is desirable to do business with a regard to 
 economy in the advance of capital ; which, besides the difficulty 
 of raising money, calls for insurance to a great amount. I do not 
 mean to catt any reflection on the builders at the out-ports ; they 
 have their own way of doing business ; but I deprecate any reflec- 
 tion on the London builders, because, I say, that, although they 
 do charge more for their ships, still they are cheaper and better 
 than the others. 
 
 The American ships, after what we have heard, can hardly hold 
 a place in this inquiry. They are described as so rotten and bad, 
 so defective both in materials and structure, that they cost in 
 repairs at ?.n early period of their lives, more than would suffice 
 to build new ships. In their origin they can stand in no compe- 
 tition with the London built ships. I am prepared to hear it said 
 that in all those cases in which I ascribe preference to these Lon- 
 don ehips over the outport and American ships, the teak ships will 
 take it over the London ships. I know it ; it is a superior goodness 
 which they cannot rival ; it is the distance of all probability of 
 icpair for which we can expect no compensation, which encircles 
 us with ruin. It would be contending against daylight to attempt 
 by any assertion to weaken this part of the comparison ; it is that 
 which brings us here; because if the cases were parallel in all 
 respects, or afforded a possibility of parallel, the builders of Lon- 
 don would have no Jear in the competition. But where there is 
 no chance of competition, it is the theme of this inquiry to know 
 whether their ruin shall be incurred, and shall come upon them 
 in all its ramifications and bearings. 
 
 Sir ; it is intimated that the number of prize ships which have 
 come into the service has been a considerable cause of the dimi- 
 nution of the building in the Thames. The number of prize 
 is great, but all the evidence is in concurrent declaration
 
 IS 
 
 that it is not, even in an inconsiderable degree, the cause. There 
 never has been a war in which we did not take a considerable num- 
 ber of prizes. At the end of the American war, we must have 
 had a very large number; for a document which has been laid 
 before the committee shews, that in 1/.Q2, when we had been at 
 peace ten years, there remained 60-) ships, being a tonnage of ^ 
 f)3,900 tons and upwards ; the residue of the only war in which we 
 had been engaged, and which must be the residue of all that had 
 fallen off during the tea years ; the residue out of a much less 
 number than those taken in the last two wars, which form the 
 aggregate of the present number on hand. At the close of the 
 last war, when these yards felt no distress, and had no complaint 
 to make, except that they were obliged to raise the wages of the 
 workmen, in 1802, there were 2S27 prize ships, having a tonnage ^ 
 of 358.577 tons, as appears in page 77 of the evidence ; that was 
 during the respite afforded by the peace of Amiens. In 1811, the 
 ship-builders then being in pretty fair work, and having no com- 
 plaint to make, except the apprehension they had of the future 
 introduction or progressive reception of East India shipping, but 
 not being in the desolation they are now, the amount of tonnage 
 of prize ships was at the highest; there were 4023 ships, with a \/ 
 tonnage of 536,240 tons : in 1812 the number diminished ; and in 
 IS 13, when the distress of the builders grew to its height, the num- 
 ber diminished still more, and came down to 37-39 ships, with a 
 tonnage of 518,439. 
 
 Now, Sir, I enter into these details to shew that the prize ships 
 are a cause, I will not say not adequate to the effect, but not 
 bearing on the effect. There was no proportion between the build- 
 ing at the end of the American war and the building there ought 
 lo be now, and yet the prize ships were not felt as a pressure, and 
 formed no ground of complaint. The commerce of the countrv 
 has not receded since 1802, and yet then a very large number oi 
 prize ships, attended with other disadvantages, made no impression. 
 In Ibll, when they were ut the highest pitch, the distresses of the 
 builders were nol very great ; and in 1813, when they decline, the 
 misery of the builders reaches its height ; then they are forced to 
 turn their men into the streets, or on the parish, or wherever they 
 can find relief. Prize ships may have their inconvenience, 1 do 
 not say any of the causes assigned have not their inconvenience, 
 but they could not have made that impression on the petitioners 
 jvhich brings them here to complain, and it is only the coming in 
 of the Indian ships which is the fundamental cause, though super- 
 added in point of time, that compels them to come here at this 
 clay. They must have borne themselves up in the expectation 
 that the prize ships would go off' in the time of peace as they did 
 after the American war; they must have contented themselves 
 with a probability of repairing them, and no small probability it 
 is; and they would have rejoiced in the opportunity of replacing 
 them when they disappeared J they would not have complained of
 
 the prize ships, because they never felt a pressure which led them 
 to it, nor would it be reasonable to represent that those who take 
 prizes should not make use of them, because it might interfere 
 with persons who might find themselves prone to complain. 
 
 Sir; another intimation is, that the transports returning from 
 the government employ into the general service will produce, or 
 may probably have produced, the suspension of work which is 
 complained of. To that some examination has been directed, 
 nnd the general result of it is, that those ships which have been 
 taken up ere ships of the best class and description, that they 
 have been constantly and diligently repaired to make them worthy 
 of the service, that they are part of the commercial shipping of 
 the country, and afford their due hope of reward to those who 
 have made them, and continue to repair them, and their return 
 is no more than can be expected, and therefore cannot form the 
 subject of a complaint, nor will they ever press so as to become a 
 grievance. 
 
 Sir; it is intimated that if we have not the building of those 
 large ships we can build smaller ones ; and a question has been 
 put, " suppose instead of two ships of twelve hundred tons, you 
 were to build eight of three hundred tons, would not that employ 
 as many men and give the same efi'ort to your trade ?" " No," is the 
 answer, " no ; it would not employ as many men, it would not con- 
 sume the same quantity of timber, it would not compensate for 
 the loss of the Indian trade in any way." Hut are the large ship- 
 builders the only persons who petition here, is not the building of 
 those small ships already appropriated to persons on whom it 
 would be as hard for these large ship-builders to encroach, as it is 
 for the East India ship-builder to encroach on them ? If it was 
 only to shift the burthen from one shoulder to another, surely 
 such a measure would never be worth the contest in which we are 
 obliged to engage. The fact is all that the smaller building has 
 been amply supplied from the outports and other sources. To 
 encroach on them would be unjust, and the large slips belonging 
 to the petitioners would be thrown away on such buildings; the 
 men could not be employed with so much advantage on them ; 
 and the establishments would be utterly misapplied in being put 
 to those purposes, they being composed for purposes much greater. 
 It would be like cutting boots to make shoes of them, to cut. down 
 these establishments to make small craft and vessels of 300 tons, 
 which are not allowed to go round the Cape: it would be to destroy 
 the end and nature of their construction, and to make that a mere 
 work of small operation on which a capital has been employed 
 capable of conducting the very greatest. 
 
 Sir ; I am much afraid the minuteness with which I have gone 
 into thtse subjects is tedious. I have endeavoured to avoid being 
 HO, but while I labour to be as brief as possible, it is my duty not 
 to suppress any thing which can benefit my clients. I feel I am 
 touching on many topics, which as I do not know exactly what is
 
 15 
 
 to be relied on by the supporters of the bill, may prove to have 
 been unnecessary, but I am desirous not to leave any point un- 
 touched, and with that observation I shall proceed to the residue 
 of the case, still entreating you to believe I am not endeavouring 
 to display mvself in any needless discussion, or to weary you by 
 going to greater length than necessary. 
 
 Sir; I am coming now to a subject which is of great im- 
 portance in this inquiry, and on which I must beg your attention 
 at some length : it is the exertions made to supply vessels for the 
 use of government. I have intimated to what extent it has been 
 carried, and how beneficially to the public it has been conducted, 
 in the present war. I am not afraid of contradiction, and I am 
 quite content that the whole of my case shall rest on the con- 
 duct of my clients in their contracts with government. I claim for 
 them the merit of having done a great public service ; I do not 
 mean to say that they have been disinterested in it : God forbid 
 that I should say they have given away their substance and their 
 time for the benefit of the community. He who by means of 
 honest exertion renders a service to his country is entitled to his 
 reward ; and if he does it well, to the gratitude of the public for 
 what he does. And this I say, not merely with reference to these 
 petitioners, but as to all the officers of state, from the most exalted 
 of those who enjoy its honours and emoluments, down to the lowest 
 person who can employ his talents in the service of his country. 
 
 I am sorry to have an observation to make, that these gentle- 
 men have been most shamefully calumniated. I shall reserve 
 my observations on that head, till I come to their defence on some 
 separate matters and acts, to which, to use a mild term, great 
 impropriety has been imputed, in a way which ought not to be 
 used towards them. They have been calumniated in a gross and 
 unwarranted manner. 
 
 Sir ; I have already stated that the ship-building for government 
 is not the main support of these yards; it is not their view in 
 making their establishments that that shall be the support of 
 thein ; they receive it as the public occasions require, they act with 
 all the energy that capital and zeal, that the command of money 
 and the use of influence, can give them ; and on many great occa- 
 sions their action has been of the highest benefit to the commu- 
 nity. Their exertions are described by one of the witnesses. Mr. 
 William Fearnell, who is surveyor to the transport board, and has 
 some reason to know what he is saying, and may be supposed not 
 to overcolour any services rendered in that way. He states, in 
 page 117, that they have made great efforts ; but this opinion was 
 not the one I had in mind and wished to have referred to in terms 
 when I first began this subject: I cannot quote the witness now by- 
 name, but I know that one of the witnesses, in the course of his 
 examination, makes the assertion that the merchant builders have 
 within his time and observation made such exertions as were not 
 thought within the compass of any ability, and such as could not
 
 10 
 
 have been made without the utmost zeal and anxiety for the 
 public service ; I wished to have made the quotation in terms, but 
 hare not the page. When I am giving them credit for that, even 
 if it should be said that the employment afforded them by govern- 
 ment has been their reward for those exertions, as well as the 
 stimulus and the motive for them, still, at this time, after complet- 
 ing the ten fir frigates which they built during the last year, it is 
 melancholy to see that in the last nine months the whole of their 
 employment has been repairing one cutter and one sloop; and that, 
 too, during the time their distress has been the greatest. 1 do 
 not mean to say there is any relative claim between them and the 
 government, that the government is obliged to sustain them by 
 taking one atom of work from their own yards to bestow on them ; 
 but it is nn unfortunate circumstance, that at a time when the 
 transports are returning at a time when the prize ships are in 
 great numbers at a time when the arrival of East India built 
 ships prevents the building from being carried on here as it should 
 be, the government ceases to afford them employment, and com- 
 pletes that effect which all the other causes have concurred in pro- 
 ducing. 
 
 Sir ; with respect to the character of their building, I have evi- 
 dence, in at least six or eight places, from different persons, not 
 merely from those that they employ, but others, that it is of the same 
 materials, got up in the same way, seasoned in the same manner, as 
 far as seasoning is understood (to which no witness yet has given any 
 thing like an answer, because I do not believe there is any process 
 for that purpose used by any one before the ship is set up) that every 
 thing is the same as in the king's yards, that every thing about 
 them is of as good quality, the workmanship is as good as it can 
 be, and that nothing is wanted on their part to make it as good as 
 it can be. The lists presented shew the number they have built; 
 let them he laid side by side \\ ith any other ships built in any other 
 place, and I believe they will not shrink from any comparison that 
 can be made, always excepting teak ships; but with that excep- 
 tion, I mean to say, in comparison with any other ships whatever. 
 
 Sir; those lists prove the fact by the history they contain; but 
 the causes are traced much higher, because it is shewn that the 
 merchant builders of king's ships have no discretion ; they have no 
 power; they cannot make a ship better or worse than government 
 chuse to have it. It depends on government alone to decide 
 what the nature of the ship shall be, from the moment of its being 
 contracted for till that of delivery. An inspector of government 
 views the timber and plank put up in her ; he fixes the time she 
 shall stand to season, which is the only seasoning the witnesses 
 understand ; the inspector fixes every circumstance relating to 
 her ; and does not allow one material to be used, or any one pro- 
 feeding to be taken, without his own personal inspection as to 
 every part of it. Can he be party to any collusion ? No ; there is 
 u superior officer conies to see how the work is going on every
 
 17 
 
 week. Can there be any thing done without inspection ? No ; 
 for the yards are open and always subject to the watchful eye of 
 persons eager to find out faults in whatever works are carrying on 
 for government. The building in the yards is subject to daily and 
 hourly inspection ; and, after all, with all the intimations that are 
 from time to time given by the government surveyor, if he does 
 not in the end approve of the ship she may be rejected. It does 
 not admit of the suggestion that better timber and means of pre- 
 paration are used in getting out ships in any other place; the alle- 
 gation that the ship-builders, or the officers of government ever do 
 neglect their duty can only arise from malice; and the want of 
 foundation for such a charge must be evident to every one who 
 considers the subject. 
 
 Sir, on this point, and as it applies to a particular case, I must 
 request your attention to a correspondence which appears on 
 the minutes of the evidence, No. 12, at page 354 ; it is the cor- 
 respondence which took place between the officers of government 
 and certain individuals, in December, 1804; an anxious time, when 
 the war with Spain was just begun ; when it was thought necessary 
 to have ships speedily put to sea in great force, a proceeding which 
 led to consequences which the annals of this country will always 
 record with pride. At this time it became necessary, and the 
 motion came from the admiralty office, to request the commis- 
 sioners of the navy to take such measures as they should judge 
 proper for contracting upon the best and cheapest terms for 
 building in the merchants yards, ten seventy- four gun ships after 
 the model of the Hero and Repulse, and to report accordingly. 
 The answer of the navy board signed by the eight commissioners 
 was this in substance : " We judged it most expedient to adopt 
 the mode we pursued when the seventy-four gun ships were con- 
 tracted for in February, 1800, by calling oipon the river builders 
 (as scarcely any others can be depended upon for building line of 
 battle ships} to attend the board for the purpose of considering of 
 a fair and reasonable price under all existing circumstances, when 
 after a long conversation and hearing from them a statement of 
 their grievances and the great losses they endured by the last 
 seventy-four gun ships built on the contract made in 1SOO, they 
 retired from the board, and in a short time delivered in the fol- 
 lowing calculation as the lowest price at which they conceived a. 
 seventy-four gun ship could be now built." And then comes the 
 proposal in figures. As this statement, the writer proceeds to 
 observe, went far beyond the expectations of the commissioners, 
 they offered a lower price than the builders had proposed : the 
 matter underwent a thorough investigation, and in the course of 
 it, having this demand of a higher price than they expected; 
 having all the means they wanted to try if they could do it any 
 better ; having proposals from the country in various directions to 
 execute the whole or part of this contract (and there is an intima- 
 tion that some very respectable persons had concurred in recom-
 
 18 
 
 mending them, and tried to persuade the commissioners to 
 build elsewhere than in London) the commissioners, knowing 
 the Thames ship-builders alone were to be relied upon, gave them 
 the contract at 361. per ton ; and consented to desist from a course 
 which had been adopted, of proceeding against them, many years, 
 after the completion of the contract, for the supposed errors 
 in the building, and compelling them to pay damages for things 
 which, if they were faults, might have been detected at the begin- 
 ning. I understand that there is a transaction alluded to in that 
 correspondence relating to the Ajax, and from which they prayed 
 to be relieved for the future. An action had been brought to recover 
 damages for some supposed defects in the construction of that 
 ship, to the amount of 40,000/., which went to a reference before a 
 gentleman at the bar, who is entitled to the highest respect, Mr. 
 Holroyd ; and he, after a long and attentive investigation, deter- 
 mined that 400/. was due, because English iron had been used, 
 and not Swedish iron, as was expressed in the contract. Now, 
 certainly, when they came forward with this recollection of an 
 injury ; when they stated all these things, and demanded an ad- 
 vance of price ; had it not been for the confidence government did 
 repose in them, no circumstance could have driven the govern- 
 ment to such abjectness as to employ them in the way they then 
 did ; they made the proposals repeatedly ; the commissioners tried 
 to beat them down in price ; but on an investigation, and going 
 through all the accounts and all the expences, they became per- 
 suaded that 307. per ton was the proper sum to be paid ; at that 
 sum they contracted with them, and for that the vessels were 
 completed. 
 
 Sir, the anxiety of persons, which suggests any promptings to 
 me, is commendable. I am instructed to state that the commis- 
 sioners went into calculations, by shillings and by pence, on the 
 tonnage ; but the builders adhered to their original proposal, and 
 then they came to an agreement, which terminated in the build- 
 ing of the ships; and it was a considerable service they rendered. 
 There were rival proposals, which might have been accepted, 
 if they could have been relied on ; but the confidence which go- 
 vernment reposed in the Thames builders is evident when they 
 said they could scarcely rely on any body else. 
 
 Now, Sir, I mean to advert to two particular ships : I do not 
 know whether they have been the subject of any cross-examin- 
 ation by my learned friends, but they have been of some explana- 
 tion on our part, for we feel not only for the petitioners, as a 
 body, but as individuals ; therefore we have directed some explana- 
 tion with respect to the structure of certain ships, which have been 
 complained of as defective, through the fault of these builders. The 
 Dublin and the Rodney have been particularly pointed to; and 
 the indictment upon the subject, for I can call it nothing else, un- 
 less it be a sentence before a process, is in terms imputing the 
 defects of those ships to the ignorance of the builders. This
 
 19 
 
 *4iarge is evidently addressed to the attention of those who are to 
 determine on this question. If the calumnies I allude to are left 
 unnoticed, our pains have been thrown away. The establishment 
 of general character must rest on general assertion ; while the 
 statement I am about to read is to stand uncontradicted. As a 
 mere anonymous calumny it would not deserve the trouble of re- 
 futation ; but, from some cause or other, it has obtained more 
 general attention than is generally paid to such writings ; and 
 more than once, members of your house who are not on this com- 
 mittee, members of my own profession, who do not attend in this 
 room, and many other persons, who read the books which are 
 published, come to me with this question: " Have you seen 
 this statement ; and do not you blush for your clients ?" 
 
 Sir, I will read the paper to which I allude: it is in the nine- 
 teenth number of the Quarterly Review, at page 21. " It is evi- 
 dent," says the writer, " that the seams of every part of the ship, 
 put together in this unseasoned state, must open, by the shrink- 
 ing of the wood; that every piece of timber, by contracting its 
 dimensions, must close upon its fastening, whether of iron, cop- 
 per, or wood ; and that these refusing to give way must cause the 
 planks and timbers to split: when the water gets in the metals 
 rust or corrode, and the wood rots. We could illustrate these 
 fatal effects by numberless examples, but we shall content our- 
 selves with two. The Rodney was launched in IfeCK); she had 
 scarcely put to sea, when, owing to the unseasoned state of the 
 timber, all her fastenings became loose ; and it was necessary to 
 bring her home from the Mediterranean, in 1812, to be paid off. 
 The next example is a very deplorable one, it is that of the Dub- 
 lin. This ship was launched in February, 1812, put in commis- 
 sion in the following August, sent upon a cruize towards Madeira 
 and the Western Islands in December, from which she returned 
 to Plymouth in February, 1813, in so dreadful a state, that she 
 was ordered to be paid off: she has since been repaired, at an ex- 
 pence not much less, we believe, than 20,000^." 
 
 Now, Sir, all this is not attributed to any other cause than the 
 ignorance and the misconduct of the builders; they sent the ship 
 to sea with unseasoned timbers ; they sent her in such a state 
 that she shortly after returned, and required a repair which cost 
 not much less than 20,000/. is it out of the memory of the com- 
 mittte, that there was a positive command of the admiralty that 
 the Rodney should be sent to sea without seasoning? One ship 
 which was building at the same time was suffered to stand to sea- 
 son, but the Rodney was peremptorily ordered to sea without 
 seasoning; and then this writer comes and charges that the ship- 
 builders had risked the lives of his Majesty's subjects, by permit- 
 ting the ship to go out in this state. The command of the admi- 
 ralty is as positive a command as can be; it was read in the com- 
 mittee, and is as distinct as terms can make it*. It was at first 
 
 * See Minutes of the Evidence, p. 30.
 
 20 
 
 issued with respect to more than one ship ; it was counteracted at 
 to the others, and was enforced with respect to the Rodney alone, 
 and then the builders are charged as an orfence, with that which 
 government is not disposed to consider in that light, and that 
 which no man. who xvas not disposed to do more than any public 
 speaker would be warranted in doing, would so represent. The 
 person who wrote this article had, or had not, better informa- 
 tion : if he had not, he ought to have sought it; if he had I 
 shall not make any conclusion. 
 
 With respect to the other ship, the Dublin, our attention has 
 been to-day directed toward the cause of her failure, which is 
 stated to Lavt been nothing but the trial of a new experiment, 
 rendered necessary perhaps by the state of knee timber in the 
 country, or rendered palatable by the desire of trying every expe- 
 riment which tends to improvement in building ships, which 
 experiment terminated in that way the new attempts frequently 
 terminate, until brought to perfection by repeated trials. It ap- 
 pears that every part of the machinery wa* not calculated for the 
 right end; that that acted us a lexer which Mr. Peake intended 
 to be a stay ; thus the side of the ship was separated from the 
 beam-ends; and the chasm thus made permitted the water to 
 rush in, and occasioned a great deal of mischief. But whence 
 comes the luble ot the 2O.OOO/. repairs? 1 have a return before 
 me, in which it is stated, that there has not been a. shilling ex- 
 pended on that ship. Why is it to be stated that such a sum has 
 !>eeu laid out, when here is a document returned from the Navv 
 Board, which shews that the Dublin has not been repaired; but 
 she had additional iron knees in May, 18L>, which were rendered 
 necessary from the failure of the plan of their own projector, who, 
 when lie came to see the manner in which his idea had been exe- 
 cuted, burst out spontaneous!} xvith a declaration of his approval 
 of the work ; xvith that declaration in his mouth he went before 
 those x\ho were to survey th^ ship for approbation, and expressed 
 himself so strongly, as to render them so satisfied with the work, 
 that one of them declared he should recommend to those em- 
 ployed in the king's yard.' to do their work in the same manner. 
 
 Sir; the inquiry we are on must rest 0,1 the utility of these yards 
 to government, and the services they have rendered. That 
 utilnv ivoulu be reversed indeed, ir we xvere to look lor s: ips to 
 maintain our naval ascendanc}, t . . sweep vlie sea and seal the 
 porls of the enemy, hermetically, as it has been termed, while we 
 were to have from these persons ships which cannot stand, which 
 endanger the lives of all on board, >.<\ which ionn a mere trap 
 into the jawg of death to the men pm on board. The public 
 ought to be apprised of such defects if they exist, but they ought 
 to be proved by tl.e strongest facts, or not asserted; and if they 
 were proved, 1 would not stand before you as I do, the advocate 
 of my clients on the ground of their public utility, 1 xxould only 
 ask your commiseration for their weak ness, li such a stigma 
 v,< r'.' fixed upon them, and supiiorU..! by trull), it would remain.
 
 21 
 
 with them indelibly ; but I trust a very different sentiment will 
 prevail in your minds, when you see that for some purposes or 
 other, these calumnies have been advanced against them. The 
 impression made by this paper may have sunk deep; indolence 
 will in many cases prevent its being- eradicated, and some one or 
 two persons will be induced to believe this statement from having 
 heard it, and he too negligent to take the pains which will enable 
 them to know the contrary. 
 
 Now, Sir, I believe I have nothing further to say on the subject 
 of building in the merchants' yards. 1 have other objects to treat 
 of, and I will describe what they are. They are the comparison 
 between building with teak and oak; that a defalcation in other 
 manufactures in the country will result from the employ of teak 
 ships, and the consequent removal of ship-building ; and then, the 
 great question whether tl.ere is or not a scarcity of oak timber in 
 this kingdom. It will not be possible to go through all these 
 subject; to day ; and when the committee are informed that I did 
 not get to bed till after rive this morning, being employed in the 
 study of this case, perhaps they will have the goodness to think I 
 do not ask too much in requesting I may be permitted to delay 
 proceeding till to-morrow. I trust they will not think it neces- 
 sary to press me to a further exertion at the present moment. 
 
 Adjourned.
 
 HOUSE OF COMMONS. 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 ON 
 
 EAST INDIA BUILT SHIPPING. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 21th, 1814. 
 
 (SIR ROBERT PEEL, BART. IN THE CHAIR.) 
 
 MR. ADOLPHUS. 
 
 Mr. Chairman. The subject, Sir, which in the 
 execution of my duty, it is now come to rue to present to your at- 
 tention, is one winch very principally affects the interests of the 
 petitioners. I mean the change that has taken place in their 
 circumstances of late years, with respect to the building of India- 
 men. I, have already premised that this is the principal part of 
 their complaint ; that the building of those ships has been the 
 principal support of their establishments ; that it has been that to 
 which they have been enabled to look to maintain those men, w'io 
 rould afterwards be employed in other directions, but that was the 
 cause and power by which they kept them together. 
 
 From the lists that have been presented to this committee, I 
 find that in nineteen years, (for the year 1814 is nor returned), 
 the total of India ships built in the Thames was ninety-eight, and 
 their tonnage was 9^,7 17* The average of building by the year 
 in that whole time was five ships and three nineteenths; tl.e 
 average of tonnage \\as 519/5 and twelve nineteenths; and the 
 average of each ship is returned to me at about 1CK)7 tons. The 
 other building in the same yards for the same period was .j-42 
 ships, making for those ships 41, 552 tons. The average number 
 of ships by the year was twenty-eight vessels and ten nineteenths, 
 and the average number of tons 218.5 and seventeen nineteenths; 
 the average of each vessel being seventy -six tons. 
 
 Such was the state of two periods of ten and nine years, but in 
 separating our view of the subject, a result quite different is given.
 
 2S 
 
 In the first ten years, the India'ships built were seventy-seven, and 
 the tonnage 76,127; the average annual building was at that time 
 seven and seven tenths, and the tonnage 7612 and seven tenths. 
 For the last ten years, including in that 1814, the ships built 
 have been only twenty -one, their tonnage only 22,590; the aver- 
 age two ships and one tenth a year, and the deficiency therefore 
 between the first period and the latter, is fifty-six ships, measuring 
 53,557 tons. It is not absent from my memory, that in the course 
 of this inquiry, it has turned out that in 1/96 or thereabouts, 
 seven ships which were laid down for Indiamen, were purchased 
 by government; they, therefore, may increase the average for the 
 iirst ten years. I have stated my average, therefore is subject to 
 some deduction on that account. It is fair to mention all parti- 
 culars, whether in our favour or against us. 
 
 Now, Sir, during the period of twenty years in which, especially 
 during the latter ten of those years, we have to complain of this 
 deficiency, the India-built ships admitted to registry have been 
 seventy-six in number, and their tonnage 4/,47 5 5 hut by subse- 
 quent lists which have been delivered in, and papers subsequent 
 to them again, the ships are carried to eighty-seven, the tonnage 
 to 56,923. Then there is an account up to the 23d of April, of 
 ships that have come here latterly, for these ships keep arriving 
 frequently; they are the Countess of London, of 481 tons; the 
 Marquis of Wellington, of 636 tons; the Swallow, of 353 tons; 
 the Bengal Merchant, of 477 tons; the Radnor, of 4/8 tons; and. 
 the Henry Wellesley of 301 tons. 
 
 Mr. Spankie. Those ships are mentioned as lying now for sail 
 in the river. 
 
 Mr, Adolphus, Certainly ; it is sakl there are more ships 
 arrived, but this state of things, the introduction of this tonnage 
 upon the Thames builders tallying in a remarkable degree with 
 their deficiency, illustrates their case, and shews that the building 
 they used to execute is taken away as that building is substituted 
 for it; that is one of the propositions Mr. Harrison pledged him- 
 self to prove, and the documents go to that proof. 
 
 Sir, the returns before you present another view of the subject. 
 There are accounts in page 76 of the evidence, which from the 
 conflagration of the Custom House are necessarily imperfect, but 
 the deductions from which I think it is interesting to state. The 
 building in Great Britain in the year IJSS, was 935 ships, con- 
 taining Ql,543 tons; in 1809, which is the last account which can 
 be rendered in a complete state, the number of ships built in 
 Great Britain was 447? and the tonnage was 46,657. 
 
 Mr. Wallace. Have not you any account which carries it down 
 later ? if you have, it would be better to bring it down to the 
 latest period. 
 
 Mr. Atdieson. I am satisfied that account which brings it 
 down later is not accurate. 
 
 Mr. Adolphus. 1 cannot pledge myself to any account that is
 
 C4 
 
 not official, or presented to the committee in some regular tta-,?. 
 I do not think, except as to the result of one particular arbitration, 
 I have mentioned any thing but what was in evidence. 
 
 Air. Wallace. I meant, that having the account in your pocket 
 almost which does bring it down lower, you might as well state 
 the result at the latent period. 
 
 Mr. Aickeson. 1 do not hesitate to say my account is inaccu- 
 rate, because the account of the building of the United Empire 
 is blended together. 
 
 Mr. Adoipkus. This is a diminution of the building, as I am 
 enabled to state it in twenty-two years, oi' about one half. Now, 
 in the year 1/88, the number of ships built in London for all pur- 
 poses was 6l, and the tonnage 10,9(19. In 1809, there were built 
 27 ships, and the tonnage 40()2, being a defalcation of nearly 
 three-fourths. Liverpool certainly has suffered more ; her budding 
 in 1/88, was 44 ships, and 5/31 tons; in 1H)9, Liverpool built 
 nine ships, which had (J10 tons, being a defalcation of nearly 
 nine-tenths of her tonnage. But the depression of her building 
 has been greater than this: for, in one year, she built only seven 
 ships. As this decline tlates from 18 r (j, it will occur to the com- 
 mittee to what it is to be attributed. It is separate from this ques- 
 tion, but it connects itself with an observation often vnade, that 
 " persons are full of clamour without any cause of alarm." I 
 know that among the arguments used on the present occasion, 
 that this very one may be instanced and strongly relied on, that 
 Liverpool, by the slave-trade being abolished, was fearful of ruin ; 
 but that now the clamour upon that subject has ceased. The 
 clamour indeed lias censed, but that the fear was not unfounded, 
 the document proves to demonstration. If we shew that we feel 
 the effects of introducing Indian ships, and state our fears for onr 
 future condition, it is no answer to us to say, " we have before 
 heard complaints which we now cease to hear, and we consider 
 them to have been idle because they are discontinued." jVlen 
 must complain of the probable effect of measures they are seek- 
 ing to resist, but when the decision is against their interests, 1 an* 
 afraid the silence into which they subside is not indicative of 
 content, but a sad symptom of their hopeless situation. Having 
 made their appeal to the legislature, ti^ey can do no more, and 
 must submit. I do not mean to question the wisdom of its 
 determination with respect to the slave-trade ; the popularity oi" 
 the measure, and the general feeling of the country justified and 
 required it, although a great deal may be thought and said upon 
 that subject by peisoas who view the interests oi tins country as & 
 whole, and do not separate them into parts. 
 
 Sir, it appears from the result of the returns made, and the evi- 
 dence before \on, that the East India company, for their whole- 
 trading, can use these ships. I am not going to discuss whether 
 they ought or not to do so, however tempting it may be, having;
 
 this book before me * to advert to lord Melville's letter or their 
 own reports. It will be sufficient for me merely to mention them, 
 and if the interest of that body may be presented in answer to our 
 petition^, it will be for Mr. Harrison to offer such observations 
 upon this subject as he may think fit. I only make this observation 
 to shew I am not without the means ; but as that is not a subject 
 at all in proof before the committee, I shall abstain from saying 
 more than that there are such documents, and it would be easy to 
 refer to them. 
 
 Sir, as a great part of the employment of the London builders 
 has been in preparing and repairing ships for the use of this com- 
 pany, it is important that the state of their transactions and con- 
 duct in that employ should be adverted to. The first witness we 
 called was Mr. Hilhnan, a surveyor of shipping, employed by the 
 company, and in their interest. It was material to the character 
 of the ship-builders, that we should put out of view every charge 
 of misconduct in their duty; and I think his evidence, joined with 
 some papers which are before the committee, will have produced 
 that effect. The superintendance and inspection for the building 
 of an Indiaman, is just as exact as that for the navy ; so Mr. Hill- 
 man proved it, and so it is proved by investigations afterward. I 
 know not how it comes to be said to be owing to the neglect of the 
 builders, but of late years, a considerable number, I think twelve 
 London built ships, have been lost in the Indian seas. That is 
 made a foundation of a complaint, that these ships have been so 
 weak and imperfectly built, (for that is the phrase used) that a 
 new circumstance has taken place in the annals of ship-building, 
 and that ships which never did so before, have now foundered in 
 the Indian seas through bad building. 
 
 I do not want to repeat any observation I have already made, 
 but I have in my hand an answer to this unfounded assertion. In 
 page 275 of the evidence given on the present occasion, being the 
 minutes of enquiries by the Directors of the East India company 
 and their officers, as to the loss of twelve ships, (and the name of 
 every ship is mentioned here f) in which it appears, that the ships 
 were badly manned ; that the lirst six of them, the Calcutta, Jane, 
 Duchess of Gordon, Bengal, Lady Jane Dundas, Experiment, and 
 Lord Nelson, were too heavily laden; that they went by the head con- 
 siderably, arid had other defects in the manning and lading ; but all 
 this they consider quite insufficientto produce the loss, had it not been 
 for the violence of the hurricane which they encountered, which was 
 such as no man could ex pect, and which occasioned the misfortune of 
 which they complain ; but with respect to the out-fit and building of 
 these ships, the decision of the committee is clear and strong; that 
 
 * Alluding to a volume iutitled, " Reports and Papers on the Impolicy of em- 
 ploying Indian built Ships in the Trade of the East India C'mipariy, and of ad- 
 mit: ing them to British Registry." 
 
 f Ju the Quarteily Review, No. XX. p. 473,
 
 26 
 
 there is not the least complaint to be made on that head in any 
 respect ; and, in pursuing the enquiry with an attention to every 
 circumstance, with a monition to those employed on it, that the 
 losses in property were of serious importance to the company, and 
 the losses in lives were truly alarming; with that monition, a gen- 
 tleman who was employed on the occasion, in his report, makes 
 the following statement. " It may be expected I should also state 
 something as to the hull and equipment of your ships. These 
 are inspected so closely by your surveyors and master attendant, 
 and the charter party is so express, that no ships can be better equip- 
 ped or sent to sen" Now, to be sure, if terms were selected on pur- 
 pose to refute the calumny ; if we had been accused and gone to 
 this gentleman for evidence of character, it would amount to a com- 
 plete acquittal. But this enquiry having taken place many years 
 ago, and being in the possession of those who chose to seek for it, 
 it is too much for any man who in giving his own opinion affects to 
 guide the judgment of others, to lay the violence of nature in the 
 hurricanes of the Indian seas, aud other circumstances; such as 
 waiting for convoy, and the pressing rf men out of sight, and untruly 
 assert that the builders construct their ships so ill, that they founder 
 t sea, and every soul on board perishes. There is a report made 
 upon the subject, which is signed by Charles Grant, William 
 Astell, John Bebb, John B. Taylor, Campbell Majoribanks, 
 William Wigram, James Pattison, George A. Robinson, George 
 Millet, and Robert Williams; the document in particular to which 
 I have alluded is signed by Joseph Cotton, a director ; he seems to 
 have interested himself in the enquiry, and appears to have been 
 mainly relied on. 
 
 Mr. Smith. You could not have a better man. 
 Mr. Adulphus. If any impression has been made to the disad- 
 vantage of the petitioners, on account of their work being imper- 
 fect, it ought to be done away by the evidence here, and whatever 
 has been so asserted as to any demerits of theirs, will not, I trust, 
 enter into your decision on this question. In the fevered state in 
 which the minds of these gentlemen are at present, I have papers 
 put into my hands to make statements as to particular ships ; with 
 respect to a ship that made more voyages of discovery and circum- 
 navigation than the famous Whitby ship which carried Captain 
 Cook, but I forbear going into it, convinced that when a strong 
 case of character is made, it is unnecessary to go through all the 
 facts which constitute the formation of that character. It is by 
 letting up the broad shield of general defence, that we must sup- 
 port such a cause as this, and the refutation of the assertions as to 
 the twelve Indiamen I have referred to, goes in aid of the general 
 character; and these gentlemen must not suffer from any impu- 
 tation so cast on them. 
 
 Now, Sir, there is a document also put in, which in its general 
 result tends to support the case of these gentlemen strongly, and 
 to shew that nothing has been done on their part which should
 
 27 
 
 entitle them to censure; the report I allude to is in page 296: three 
 periods of six years in the time of war are selected, when the as- 
 sembling of ships for sailing in convoy is supposed to be the same; 
 it gives an account of the ships captured, but I omit that, because 
 it does not apply to the case before you. The first period stated 
 is six years of the American war, from 17/6 to 1/81 ; the ships the 
 East India company sent out to India then were 141, out cf which 
 were burnt or lost thirteen, being an average rather less than 
 ten per cent. ; in six years of the next war, from 179^ to 1797, the 
 East India company sent out 29 1 ships, out of which they lost 
 seven ; that gives an average of three per cent. ; and in six years 
 of the next war, from 1801 to 1800', they had 358 ships, out of 
 which they lost eight, being an average of about two per cent, 
 and no more. 
 
 Mr. Spankie. You take in a period of peace. 
 Mr. Adolphus. I beg pardon, 1 do, and although the news of 
 peace could not have got from this country to India long before 
 the war broke out again, still the peace of Amiens must have been 
 reckoned upon there in some manner, but such the return is, 
 and I have made use of it to shew there has been a diminishing 
 loss in proportion. 
 
 Mr. Wallace. It is an odd sort of selection among the years. 
 Mr. Adolphus. I do not know why it was selected, nor how the 
 paper was moved for or obtained ; from 179^ tne beginning of the 
 war, is an important date, it was a very active period; nfter the 
 year 1/97 4e enemy had no navy to speak of, therefore that is a 
 fair period; and from 1801 to 1806 I do not know how those six 
 years came to be selected, but as the paper was before me, I made 
 the observation upon it which occurred to me as natural, and with 
 that result I present it with all its imperfections to the notice of 
 the committee. 
 
 Mr. Wallace. From whence does that account come ? It is not 
 signed by any body. 
 
 Mr. Adolphus. The paper marked number 40 is signed, and 
 this is a paper which is annexed to it for its better understanding; 
 it is part of the report on the twelve Indiamen. 
 
 Sir; the importance of this building to the individuals who are 
 petitioners before you becomes more and more conspicuous in 
 every way we view it ; in the evidence here we have many state~ 
 ments relating to the employment of men, to the consumption of 
 materials, and to the various ways in which it interests the builders 
 particularly, the revenue and the community at large ; I will pre- 
 sent one or two to your attention as they stand on the evidence, 
 selecting the particulars. I tiud that an East India ship of 120O 
 tons, if built in eighteen months according to one witness, takes 
 from twenty-four to thirty shipwrights, but in thirteen or fourteen 
 mouths, she may be built by employing from forty to flfty hands,, 
 I am taking it as it is on the evidence.
 
 v / 
 
 28 
 
 Mr. Smith. The witnesses differed on that subject, but nearly 
 all of them corrected themselves afterwards, and pretty nearly all 
 agreed together as to the number of men employed. 
 
 . Mr. Adolphus. It appears that a ship of 1200 tons would re- 
 quire sixty-five tons of cordage for her first voyage, and forty-five 
 tons for every following voyage. It appears in page 42, that the 
 price of that cordage fluctuates between GO/, and 120/. a ton, and 
 that no particular rate of charge can be stated for the manufac- 
 ture, the cleaning and the various other things described. The 
 duty on each ton of hemp is 9.'. or \ol. The sails required for a 
 llZOO ton ship on her first voyage are two suits and one third, and 
 one suit and a quarter on each succeeding voyage; a suit of sails 
 costs 8-10/. and occupies 8500 yards of canvas. This is a matter 
 which attaches to the building of a 1200 ton ship ; this is the em- 
 ployment of men whose numbers I think have been rather under 
 stated by the witnesses; and these are the various sources of reve- 
 nue and emolument which we say will be removed from this 
 country. An 8OO ton ship (I shall carry it no further than this, 
 although these particulars are in evidence as to ships of 6OO and 40O 
 tons) occupies 50 shipwrights, the witness said so, the number 
 strikes me as being too large. 
 
 Air. Wallace. He spoke of sixty men being employed on a 
 1200 ton siiip, and stated that half of them were shipwrights. 
 
 Mr. Adolphus. But he afterwards said that a hundred persons 
 were employed on an 800 ton ship, and that half were shipwrights. 
 On her first voyage an 8OO ton ship takes 50 tons of cordage, and 
 on the following voyages 35 tons each. Her sails are 630O yards 
 ql canvas to a suit, costing $501. and she requires two suits and a 
 third fur the first voyage, and on the following voyages one suit 
 and a quarter each. I mention these particulars, as the details 
 only can lead to the general results, and as the removing of one 
 class of building and the other must contribute to the exclusion 
 of the employment of all these materials. 
 
 Sir; with respect to the routine and costs of repairs, those 
 are given in pages -1 and 5 of Mr. Hilman's evidence; and it 
 appears a matter of great importance; indeed the expences are 
 very considerable; but I forbear to say any thing about them 
 now, having in my view to compare them with the repairs of ttak 
 ships, aad they will come together fairly in that division of the 
 subject. Tlit re is a mode of repair by doubling, which is pecu- 
 liar to the London building, which gives a great deal of employ, 
 that ha* prolonged the lives of the London ships, but is per- 
 formed at a very considerable expence, though it has its advan- 
 tage both to the ship owners and to the London builders. In 
 speaking of this portion of building, and the repairs to be em- 
 ployed upon these ships, of course it naturally occurs, and it 
 must form part of the observation on my case, that the ships 
 built of ttak must be better and more perfect, and require less 
 of these expences, and must therefore be beneficially and pro-
 
 29 
 
 fitably employed by those who possess them. Of that it is not 
 my intention to deny the slightest particular. I have collected 
 from the evidence that which was not new to me, the great strength 
 and goodness of the teak weed ; its ability to stand all climates ; 
 its aptitude for masts of the largest description : and I also collect 
 with regret, that it cannot be imported into England in an un- 
 manufactured state, with any chance of benefit to the importers ; 
 that the length of the voyage would consume more in freight than 
 the using it would give advantage in price. It is a part of the 
 case which presses on me; because I know it will be easily de- 
 scribed by my learned friends, that the possession of this article 
 is a great good, which the petitioners call on them to renounce in 
 favour of other advantages which we call more extensive and be- 
 neficial. 
 
 I have already presented some of these topics to the committee, 
 and I am to observe on some others, but principally the maintain- 
 ing here the manufacture of ships of large size, by the merchants' 
 yards, for the benefit of the country and of government j the ne- 
 cessity of keeping together the artificers, who in times of war can be 
 brought into the service of government ; and these establishments, 
 which, in those times, can assist the government service; and the 
 necessity of keeping up these trades in time of peace, which inter- 
 weave themselves with the naval greatness of the empire. These 
 are the points which I am to insist on, as countervailing the advan- ** 
 tage of possessing this particular species of timber, when we have 
 felt no want of it. ; when we have no want of it now ; when all 
 done hitherto has tended to our advantage and glory ; and when 
 we must forego those, to procure this addition, which we say we 
 can dispense with. 
 
 Sir; the ships which are built of teak wood certainly present 
 no subject to complain of with respect to their purchase, equipment, 
 or duration. They have in these respects advantages over our^ 
 ships. It will be open to discussion, whether the first cost of 
 building a teak ship is or is not greater than the building of an 
 oak ship. The accounts before the committee do not convey any 
 certain information, because they are made in a way which does 
 not permit us to judge on it. The evidence of a gentlemen (who 
 has a contract for a ship 1200 tons, now coming home, who ex- 
 pected to have her for 6.5,000/. has been far from decisive; be- 
 cause 15,000/. more, I think, are to be paid, which will bring her 
 to the price of Thames ships of the same dimensions. But it 
 stands clearly in the evidence before you, that the advantage in 
 freight is a weighty counterbalancing circumstance, and does , 
 throw a decided advantage into the scale of the owner of Indian** 
 ships. I know, by the course of examination pursued, that this is 
 taken to be a contingent advantage, that may be a benefit or not. 
 He who is to find freight, may or may not lose by the voyage ; and 
 if he loses, the beneficial contingency will not take place ; but I am 
 not aware of the force of that argument. If a merchant sends
 
 30 
 
 borne goods from India, he must pay the freight, just as every other 
 man must, whether he gain or lose by the voyage. If he is an 
 owner of the ship, he does not gain the freight in the first instance, 
 but he gains the advantage of trying the market by sending home 
 his cargo free of expeiice ; there is the gain which he has to look for, 
 and there is that which constitutes the main difference between the 
 building here and in India. 
 
 There is an allowance here for what is called war building, which 
 Mr. Morice treated as superior to this freight home ; but I believe 
 he was not quite founded in that, taking the facts as they apply to 
 one ship and the other, and taking them by their effects, which is 
 the best test of all arguments of speculation, and the best rectifier of 
 supposition. 
 
 Now, sir, let us see what experience on this subject teaches. A 
 ship comes home from India, having got a good freight, and made a 
 fortunate voyage. The ship the General Hewett of nearly 1000 tons 
 came home under these circumstances, and Mr. Larkins might have 
 purchased her in the river, she having had the benefit of her freight 
 home, for 35,000/. but in a condition that he would be obliged to 
 lay out 2O,OOO/. upon her; therefore the sum of 55,000/. was the 
 price which he would have paid for a ship of very nearly a thousand 
 tons one of these excellent teak ships. He was building a ship of 
 the same size and dimensions in the river, and his contract price for 
 her to free her to sea was 6y,8QOl. That decides the question. 
 When a ship which has made her profitable voyage, which is a new 
 ship, has no drawbacks has put a freight into the proprietor's pocket, 
 can be sold brand new in the river for 55,000/. while the building of 
 a similar vessel in the river comes to (JQ.OOO/., there can be no doubt 
 which of the two ships must be deemed the cheapest. There is an end 
 to the question with respect to buying one ship or another. The 
 regulation for war building was in force, but this ship was imme- 
 diately taken into the Company's service ; it had the same freight as 
 the Thames built ship ; it had the same war allowance as the Thames 
 built ship; for so the evidence goesj and it goes further; that the 
 India ship, a ship of longer life, would have cleared itself entirely, 
 and be free of expence to the owner after the third voyage. 
 
 Mr. Fawcett. What ship do you allude to ? Mr. Larkins I think 
 only spoke of the Larkins. 
 
 Mr. Adolphus. If the committee will refer to his evidence in 
 page lip, they will find he mentions the General Hewett. He first 
 speaks of the Warren Hastings, and then he is asked, " Do you 
 know the General Hewett?" "Yes, I do." " Was the General 
 Hewett an Indian built ship?" " She was." " What was her ton- 
 nage?" " Somewhere between (JOO and 1000." Was it near 
 1OOO ?" " I believe it was nearer 1000 than QOO." " Do you know 
 the expence of building and cost to sea of that vessel?" " No, I 
 cannot say ; she was tendered to me to purchase by the owners in 
 this country, and they asked me 35,000/. for her." " What age 
 was she when she was tendered to you?" " She had only made a
 
 31 
 
 % freight home, and a very fortunate freight home, by which they 
 made a great deal of money, for she came home loaded with rice at 
 the time that rice was very scarce, and they made a great deal of 
 \ money upon her."' " She was a new ship lo be taken up by the 
 East India Company in this country or for sale ?" " Yes." " Did 
 you purchase her?" " I did not." " What became of that ship 
 afterwards?" " She is now on a voyage for government to Port 
 Jackson, carrying out stores and convicts, and having a charter from 
 the company to bring home tea from China." " When you state 
 that the ship was offered to you for 35,000/. I wish to know in what 
 state of equipment she was was she then equipped and ready for 
 sea, with the exception of provisions?" " No, she was just then be- 
 ginning to n't out, she had made the contract with government ; but 
 I considered that she would have cost me near 20,000 /. to have 
 fitted her to sea." 
 
 Mr. Smith. It does not appear what she was built for in India. 
 
 Mr. Adolphus. Certainly not. 
 
 Sir Charles Monk. It appears to me we are drawing the counsel 
 from his course. If we were judges, and he was addressing a jury, 
 and was mistating the matters which he was recapitulating, and 
 which we should have to recapitulate after him, we might correct 
 him; but when we fill the double capacity of judge and jury, and 
 are bound like a judge to have all the matters taken down, and are 
 furnished with all the documents which we are bound to know the 
 contents of, we have the advantage of making any use of them, if he 
 mistate a fact to correct him, and thereby perhaps place him under 
 as great a disadvantage as he can lie under ; therefore he is bound, 
 by every tie that can bind him, not to state any fact incorrectly. 
 
 Mr. Smith. I apprehend, if a counsel were mistating a fact un- 
 intentionally, the court would have a right to interpose, and to refer 
 to the fact to see whether it were rightly stated or not. I do not 
 think we have a right to interrupt him in drawing his inference, but 
 where he is stating a fact we may correct him. 
 
 Mr. Adolphus. I have not been understood if there was any oc- 
 casion to interrupt me at all. I do not pretend to decide whether 
 or not the building of ships in India is dearer than in London. The 
 calculation of rupees does not present a clear result. Something 
 has been stated with respect to war allowances and freight home, 
 and it has been said, that the one is an advantage equal to the 
 other; the practical proof is this, that an India built ship of a cer- 
 tain tonnage was sold for 35,000/. subject to an addition of 20,OOO/. 
 for repairs, when another ship to be built here would have cost 
 Cp.OOO/. 1 believe tliis, in a few words, is the substance of what I 
 stated to the committee when the question was asked what ship I 
 spoke of. There was a ship called the Larkins, on which the wit- 
 ness stated he had laid out a considerable sum of money, but he 
 considered it a sort of pet or a hobby horse, and laid out money 
 upon it, as another witness expressed himself on a similar subject, 
 because he had a particular regard for the vessel, just as he would
 
 S2 
 
 lay out money on his own drawing-room, not to make it useful, but 
 to embellish it ; to make it more like what his own looking-glass re- 
 presented to him that every thing which bore the name of Larkins 
 ought to be. 
 
 Sir; with respect to repairing ihe ships, I have already noticed 
 how much of the employment of the London builders is derived 
 from that source; that teak ships shall be repaired here to any con- 
 siderable extent is extremely improbable. The witnesses have told 
 you the repairs they have undergone in London, and I will state the 
 substance of them; but when the matter of the repair can be ob- 
 tained in India, the cordage and sails, it will be much to the interest 
 of the owners to do it there, and that to repair the Indian ship with 
 Indian wood, on the spot where it is to be obtained, is their interest, 
 and that it must be their practice no one can doubt. But on the 
 subject of repairs, here is the evidence of Mr. Noakes at page 338 : 
 he is Messrs. Wigram's leading man, who speaks to ships repaired 
 in his observation. He states that the Surat Castle (for I take the 
 first set of figures only) of 1 13() tons, going on her first voyage, 
 cost 44 1//.; on her second 34/2 1.; on her third 23Qt;/. j on her 
 fourth J751 /.; making in all 12,03ft/. spent in repairs on those four 
 voyages. But of the first voyage it is necessary to observe, that 
 much of the expenditure was not rendered necessary by the state of 
 the ship, in a general view, but was demanded by the Company, in 
 the way of fastenings, such as they thought more fit for their service, 
 and such as they thought more conformable to the views of that 
 body, who, as their own insurers, are obliged to go on their own 
 particular plan, though it might be to the advantage of the owners 
 in other cases not to pay for that sort of repair, which in the service 
 of the company is absolutely necessary. A deviation from approved 
 modes might expose the conduct of the directors to censure in those 
 genera! meetings where their conduct will be canvassed, and it is their 
 interest and their duty to avoid every thing which stimulates the eager- 
 ness generally felt for enquiry. Therefore, on the first voyage, on 
 coming home from India, when the ship was in the best state, a greater 
 sum was laid out upon her than afterwards, but that falls into the 
 general amount. In the same time, the Royal George of 1275 tons, 
 a Thames built ship, was repaired in the Thames, and she cost for 
 her first voyage \4gjL; on her second 5i)!5/. ; on her third, 
 which is the voyage when she undergoes a thorough repair, 1 4,^5'2,l. ; 
 and 0:1 her fourth l. r >;-;o/. ; making in all 23,S24/., spent in her 
 repair in the lime that an Indian ship cost only I2,03o/. I am told 
 all the accounts give the same proportion, but 1 only use these figures 
 as leading to this conclusion, that if we could expect the Indian 
 built ships would be repaired in the Thames, still their repairing 
 would be a feeble substitute for that of the Thames built ships; but 
 the removing it altogether is exposing us to that destruction which 
 we are here to deprecate. 
 
 Sir; the different parts of the subject, and the manner in which 
 the various trades connected with ship-building will be affected by
 
 33 
 
 the removal of the building and repairs from the Thames have been 
 discussed in examining tiie various witnesses that have been called to 
 speak to different parts. I will give the result of what they slate, not 
 wishing to go through the evidence, but, at the same time, to apply 
 it according to its nature. 
 
 With respect to the masts and spars, a witness in page 63 states, 
 that he used to employ from eighteen to twenty-four men, that now 
 he only employs ten ; and another witness, circumstanced exactly in 
 the same manner, puts twenty-five in the number he did employ, 
 and eleven as the number he employs now. They say Indian masts 
 are as good, and, in many respects, better than the masts of this ' 
 country. They are not so light, and therefore the upper masts of 
 the ship, and some of the light spars, must still continue to be of fir, 
 I suppose of some foreign country; I believe they will not be Bri- 
 tish growth: and they state something of some masts having been 
 imported ; but the evidence of those who have viewed the ships is, 
 that they have come home latterly, entirely with masts of their own, 
 that nothing but the lightest part of the material has been had from 
 this country. 
 
 With respect to the block -making work there the teak wood 
 enjoys a great advantage in gun carriages it is admitted it is better, 
 and must supersede our oak altogether, and a very little ingenuity 
 will enable the Indian builders to make entirely their own blocks 
 there is an end of that trade. 
 
 The cordage has been the subject of a great deal of enquiry. The 
 Indian hemp, under the various names of Sun, Salsette, and Concang < 
 hemp, is so good and so copious that the witnesses seem of opinion the 
 Indians will have no need to resort to this country for corditge : the 
 machinery they have not yet got, but they have means of supply which 
 will keep them free from the necessity of recurring to this country for 
 any of these articles. The East India Company, it is said in the evi- 
 dence, certainly continue to supply their ships with cordage made in 
 London, or at least with British cordage, but. they are not bound to 
 do so ; there is nothing to compel them, but a feeling in their minds 
 that they ought to employ persons they have long continued to em- 
 ploy. When the ships shall be found to be as well and much more 
 cheaply supplied in India, there is no doubt that the trade will be* 
 removed; it is in the nature of things that it should be so; and it is 
 doing so as rapidly as it can. Then all the employment, all the re- 
 venue, and all the advantages which are derived to the country by 
 making these materials here, must be transferred to the people of 
 India. There are tables before you at page Qi of the cord-age ex- 
 ported to India. I am not so well aware of the proportions between 
 the quantum of building carried on in India in oae year and another, 
 as to state the result practically. For want of the materials for com- 
 paring the years in which many ships are buili, with those in which 
 few ships are built, I cannot present any clear result which would 
 tend to elucidate the question ; but for a certain number of years 
 past the exportation has been diminishing. In 1799-1800, twelve
 
 34 
 
 hundred tons of cordage \vcre exported; in 1813-14 it has comr 
 down to 235 tons; but 1813-14 is not the lowest tonnage; there 
 are other years lower, and therefore I cannot say that that arises 
 from one cause or another affecting the question before you ; the fact 
 is, that the exportation Iras decreased, but from what causes it is not 
 in my power to make any assertion. 
 
 With respect to sails, the Indian manufactures are equivalent to the 
 supply of them. It has been asked of the sail-makers who have been 
 
 ^ called, whether the Indian sails are as good as those made here : 
 they answered no: I cannot doubt them when they say so; but they 
 shew the effect the system in question has upon the interest of their 
 trade. Although the sails may not be so good as ours, says one 
 witness, the difference in the price, and the facility of getting them 
 will make such amends, that, as the ships I have seen have been 
 equipped with Indian sails, so they will continue to be equipped. 
 
 What then remains, Sir, in the equipping of ships ? I have spoken 
 of the masts, the blocks, the hemp, the cordage and the sails ; why 
 
 ^ the metallic matters, iron and copper are still to be found from this 
 country. Speaking upon existing circumstances, and I do not wish 
 to go into more speculation than can be avoided ; I do not wish 
 to view the state of things that may arise when the manufacture of 
 metals shall be brought more extensively into use there; when the 
 steam engine shall travel there; and when the means possessed in 
 South America shall be carried tin-re. I do not \\ish to speak of 
 
 \the enterprising genius of the people of India, in getting every thing 
 that is for their benefit in a commercial view ; I leave these matters 
 to operate in their own way; it does not occur to me that they have 
 yet made any great progress in supplying iron or copper for their 
 ships; and according to a specification of a contract that has been 
 delivered in, it is very probable, that for some time they will be 
 supplied from this country. A most miserable residue to atone for 
 all the industry and capital that have been employed, and all the re- 
 venue and profit that have been derived from arts which support a 
 most useful class of men, and from all those labours which conduce 
 to the support of those persons who work up the prodigious fabric 
 of a ship in this country. A most miserable residue to leave, nails, 
 'and bolts, and copper sheathing, and a few trifling objects beside to 
 be made by these persons, after taking from them all they had 
 before. 
 
 Sir; In the course of tins address, I think I have adverted to most 
 of the topics which have been urged in favor of the measure about 
 which we are now treating, excepting one which I have reserved for 
 the last, which has been the subject of investigation by the examina- 
 tion of no less than fifteen or sixteen witnesses, and about which we 
 could have gone on to the extent of thirty, forty, or fifty witnesses 
 more. 1 mean the question, whether, in a public sense and view, it 
 is necessary that the tc;ik of India should be brought in to supply 
 the deficiency in the oak of this country for ship-building purposes. 
 It is our case, we have put ourselves upon it, to shew that of oak
 
 35 
 
 timber there is no scarcity. To that we have examined our witnesses ; 
 to that directed a great portion of enquiry; and on that, the result, I 
 hope, is satisfactory. As a case of scarcity, I should imagine it lay- 
 on the other side to prove something positive on that subject. I am 
 not aware how they can prove it ; it is supposed the scarcity exists 
 every where, but wherever you put your finger you cannot find it, 
 you cannot feel it, no man knows of it, and every man denies it who 
 has been examined. Who are the witnesses called ? every class and 
 description that can be interested upon the question, and interested 
 in every various way. The grower finds no scarcity ; the middle man 
 who purchases on the ground finds no scarcity ; the ship-builder finds 
 no scarcity, and the merchants who go to buy ships when built, or to 
 buy timber, find no difficulty to obtain what they want, they never 
 perceive or believe there is a scarcity. Yet the notion has gone forward 
 to the public, and whence may we say it is derived ? From speculative 
 observations, and from the interested representations of those who 
 have to make contracts applying to timber. When I called two of 
 those persons, there was a great deal of triumph as to the manner in 
 which I was likely to manage my case afterwards. The one had 
 concurred in a report which pointed to a future scarcity, the other 
 was an agent or partner of a house conducting great contracts with 
 government. That I should get from them every thing in support 
 of my case I was not so blind as to hope. I never envy any man's 
 triumph, and I cannot say that I feel at all affected by a triumph 
 which precedes a victory, as I think I shall shew the case to be here. 
 
 Sir; The purpose for which I called Mr. Driver and Mr. Morris 
 was, to shew in what way, and by what means, the notion of a 
 scarcity has been promulgated. Mr. Driver has no interest on the 
 subject ; he has made a report, and he has assumed the character of 
 a prophet, and he stated again and again in his evidence here, that 
 there is no scarcity at present ; he has repeated over and over that 
 there is no scarcity, that he has not perceived any, and does not feel 
 any probability that there will be a scarcity until the end of five and 
 twenty years, and then his prophecy is to take effect, and England 
 is to be ruined for want of oak timber. The other gentleman, who 
 has a present contract by which he is to gain a present advantage, 
 (and the contract shews there is no negligence on his part; the cor- 
 respondence of Messrs. Bowsher who are connected with him, shews 
 they did not pursue their interest in the contract with any coyness or 
 reserve) that gentleman says the scarcity is prodigious. " I know," he 
 says, " such means are taking, that in five and twenty years there will 
 be nothing like a scarcity, then there will be plenty of timber every 
 where ; when I have made my fortune and gone to cast my account 
 elsewhere, there will be plenty of timber to be had, and government 
 may make a better bargain with somebody else than they could 
 with me." 
 
 With this view these two witnesses have been brought, and for 
 the purpose of this contrast we have taken their evidence ; because I 
 insist that it will tend to shew that the public ear is in some way
 
 " rankly abused," that the scarcity is pretended only ; certainly by 
 
 ^Mr. Driver with the best intentions ; for I dare say he speaks as he 
 
 believes; but surely very little reliance can be placed on witnesses when 
 
 they make such statements from such causes, and in such a manner. 
 
 Sir ; I know it has been intimated, and perhaps I have heard it 
 from my learned friends or some other persons, that these are my 
 own witnesses, and therefore I must be bound by all they say. Now 
 that, to be sure, at Nisi Prius, would be an observation of some 
 weight ; because there, one single issue is to be tried, under the forms 
 of law, and no collateral matter is to be enquired into unless you 
 take upon you to make it evidence. There you are bound by the 
 witnesses you call; but in an enquiry like the present, I must ani- 
 madvert upon testimony, and examine whether he who knows every 
 thing most exactly, has treated me fairly, and .given me the truth in 
 the way I have a right to expect it. 
 
 Sir; these two witnesses contrasted as they are, are also considera- 
 bly weakened in their testimony in other respects. Mr. Driver, him- 
 self, in the course of his examination, after the report had been put 
 into his hands, and he had swallowed the whole of it, began to 
 quality as to expressions. I do not think, he says, that word economy 
 came in by my direction ; it may be wronu, but it is my opinion : at 
 first he said his brother knew more of the subject than he did, and 
 he, when called upon, knew nothing of the scarcity. If I were to 
 refer to all the parts of what the witnesses have said that are import- 
 ant, I might refer to all the pages of the evidence given ; and for my 
 own guidance in this discussion, I have made at least twenty-two or 
 twenty-four citations of passages wherein the same proposition is 
 stated. To c\ery question on the existence of a scarcity the answer 
 is, no, no; there is no scarcity; there is nothing like it ; we never felt 
 it, or perceived it; we never feared it, or had a cause to fear it. 
 
 Sir; when I speak of Mr. Morris's evidence, it is also material that 
 I should point out where he cannot possibly be correct. It is very 
 natural, and 1 am not rash to censure a man who does not like to 
 disclose the nature of his particular dealings. "When I say I am not 
 disposed harshly to censure, do not let it be understood that 1 ap- 
 plaud such conduct in persons who have their minds directed to par- 
 ticular interests, and who have not so general an excuse as this wit- 
 ness; but he stated some things which I think cannot be exactly cor- 
 rect. He states that there is a great scarcity of timber, that it is such 
 that he has had great difficulty in performing his contracts, and leaves 
 him no hope of a facility in performing them in future. Yet he sells 
 to Messrs. Wigram's house in ten years, timber to the amount of 
 1?O,OOO/. He stated that he would be glad to purchase now at five 
 per cent, less than he did hist year; and yet Mr. Richardson says he 
 has a quantity to sell at '/L per load, being twelve per cent, below 
 what it was last year. And sales by auction are proved to have taken 
 place, and Mr. Morris, for the interest of himself and Mr. Larkins, 
 can have gone to none of these sources, though he might have been
 
 37 
 
 amply supplied at each of them. Then, without affecting his credit, 
 without imputing to him that he is doing more than is natural for 
 men to do for their interest, I say such persons, supporting such re- 
 presentations, supporting them hy no instance, but merely stating 
 them as the representations of their own minds, cannot be depended 
 upon, and that if the case is only to be made out by the wailings of 
 Mr. Morris and the apprehensions of Mr. Driver, we may say there 
 is no scarcity existing. If it does exist, I call upon my learned 
 friends to shew instances of it ; to shew districts cleared of timber; 
 to shew that some great public works have stood still ; that some 
 great disasters have befallen ; that the establishments have dimi- 
 nished ;. that the dealers have not found employment for their capital ; 
 and to shew some of those appearances which indicate a reduction 
 in the quantity of other articles of necessity, or else it cannot be 
 taken, against all the evidence adduced, that there is the least pre- 
 tence of a scarcity. 
 
 Sir ; our evidence is, that the growth of timber is encouraged in 
 an unexampled degree. Mr. Harvey, who combined more intelli- 
 gence, more calmness and exactness of view, than almost any wit- 
 ness ever produced on a similar subject, gave testimony which was 
 complete and decisive in my judgment. Is there a decline in the 
 production of timber in this country ? " No,'' says he, " for one 
 oak that i-> cut down, a hundred are planted to my knowledge ; for 
 one acre of wood land that has been grubbed up, a hundred acres 
 have been set out under my observation." Now, that is the evidence 
 a man gives of subjects within his own knowledge and experience ; 
 extending to an estate of very large magnitude, and surrounded by 
 other estates, to which it seems Mr. Morris could not find his way, 
 but all possessing timber of the finest quality. Is it ornamental tim- 
 ber ? " No," nothing like it; " it is timber in regular cutting, or 
 capable of being brought into regular cutting, and lies there ready 
 and capable of being produced for every purpose for which it can 
 be desired. Is he the only witness to that ? " No ;" many others, 
 using their eyes, say, " wherever I walk or travel through the king- 
 dom, there is plenty of timber." They speak to the present pro- 
 duce and the future hope ; the one as ample beyond all calculation, 
 the other as promising beyond all example; and they all state that 
 there is nothing like a scarcity really in existence, or to be appre- 
 hended. One man says so from the mode of preserving timber of 
 all ages and descriptions: he says, " the young trees in the hedge 
 rows we now give a premium to preserve, so anxious are we to en- 
 courage the timber, knowing its use, and appreciating its value just- 
 ly." This is the state in which the country is, and this is the state 
 of things on which the charge of scarcity is to be founded. 
 
 Sir; it may be said that the inference of scarcity will arise from 
 various causes; and that although no actual scarcity may be proved, 
 a probability of it may be inferred from appearances. I know of 
 none such, because I take it that the spirit of producing that which 
 will hereafter be necessary, bottomed on the certainty of extensive
 
 38 
 
 consumption, and the probability of its procuring a good price, can 
 never fail in a country where people are so considerate of their own 
 interest, and never negligent of the public good, and these motives will 
 secure the cultivation of it. In these circumstances, it is not pro- 
 bable that there will be a falling oft" in the production of timber. 
 
 Sir; the high price at which it has been, has afforded some notion 
 that there is, or may be, a scarcity. I do not believe that such a 
 notion can be well founded. We have examined witnesses to that 
 point, every one of them being pressed as far as possible, and what 
 is the general assertion with respect to the price of timber? Has it 
 advanced by an artificial exertion ? Has it advanced as something 
 that is going to be scarce ? No ; the evidence has been, that relation 
 being had to the price of every thing else, timber has not advanced 
 more than other articles. So it stands on the tables, on all the evi- 
 dence, and such must be the result of that experience which must 
 guide us here. Timber has never been three times as high in price 
 as it was five and twenty or thirty years ago. I believe there is hard- 
 ly an article of which we can say the same. The timber has been 
 acted upon as to price, but then it was not to such an extent as to 
 violate its proportion with other articles of purchase and sale. I 
 should be sorry if any thing I said were subject to any doubt or any 
 supposition of fallacy, when I advance it on my own memory ; but 
 my own memory with respect to many articles of daily consumption, 
 Iocs enable me to say, that the increase in the price of timber 
 is not beyond them in the scale of proportion. 1 have known the 
 quartern loaf at sixpence within twenty-one years. I have known it 
 at one shilling and eleven-pence within that lime, or very near four 
 times the money at which it has been. Timber has never been three 
 times as high in price as it was twenty years ago, and the price is still 
 in relation to other things nearly what it ought to be. Wine, twenty 
 years ago, I can remember at a certain price, very short of a 
 third of what it is now to be bought for, and every article comes 
 into the same scale of comparison ; and I can pronounce strictly, and 
 I could verify it by tables which could not deceive, that there is no- 
 thing in the advance of timber beyond the price which persons must 
 pay for every other article of produce. They who sell timber must 
 regulate the price by their expence in other articles; and the price 
 afforded during the last twenty years would not produce much more 
 of those than the price which could be obtained at any ante cedent 
 period. 
 
 Sir, I have here a paper which has been made up this morn- 
 ing with some degree of care, with respect to the advance in the 
 price of timber from the year 1663, to the present time; and it is 
 remarkable, that from l60"3, to 1750, the price continued nearly 
 the same; it then advanced} but from 1756, to 179K it continued at 
 nearly the same price. It is an extraordinary instance, that any pro- 
 duce of the soil, at a time too when the clamour of apprehended 
 scarcity made its appearance, should have remained for so long a 
 period without an advance in the price, although building went on,
 
 39 
 
 and although a great deal more of the timber was thrown away 
 then, than has been thought proper of late years. Then if neither 
 high nor low price is a criterion of scarcity, the committee and those 
 who are to judge on the subject, must resort to other principles that 
 iire more wide arid general ; similar to that which I have already 
 adverted to ; that wherever any article can be produced, wherever 
 the attention is called to it, in no country will that article be ever 
 really scarce. There may be difficulty in obtaining it ; particular 
 individuals will have their particular views ; some will cut and some 
 will not; there are particular feelings on the subject; those who 
 will not sell this year may be induced to sell in the next, and so with 
 one thing as with another; that which is kept back unduly atone time, 
 comes forward for the general good at another, and no pressure will 
 be felt, because interest will form the great cause of action in every 
 man who lives in this world. 
 
 Sir ; it may be said, for the enquiry has gone a little in that direc- 
 tion, that because economy is used, therefore a scarcity must be 
 felt ; but that is no proof of scarcity ; it is a proof that the sub- 
 ject has attained to consideration ; that it is recommended to the 
 attention of those who possess and use it, but it no more proves 
 scarcity than it proves the opposite. Timber is a thing which being 
 encouraged may be produced to an undefined extent; it is now used 
 sparingly ; iron is substituted in parts because there was a waste of 
 timber in the use of it; the course of improvement suggests economy 
 on that which bears a good price, and recommends the substitution 
 of manufactured articles for the mere produce of the soil; but there 
 is no reason to infer a scarcity, merely because economy prevails in 
 the use of that which we possess. It is said, the high price has 
 caused an apparent plenty, which does not exist in fact, that it has 
 occasioned a great deal of timber to be brought to market, in hopes 
 of gaining a high price, which otherwise would not have come; so it 
 ought that is the way in which a supposition of scarcity alone can 
 be repelled ; that a high price does bring the article to market, far 
 from proving a scarcity, is a strong argument in favour of the plenty, 
 because it shews that it wants nothing but to fix a man's attention on 
 his own interest, and then he will give that which you want, although 
 he will not when his attention is less excited. A strong instance was 
 afforded by a witness w r e called before you, Mr. Ellis, who wanted to 
 make a moderate purchase of timber, and when he came to converse 
 with the grower upon the subject, he said, " I should like to give you 
 30,000/. for your timber." The gentleman heard it with surprise; 
 he did not know its value. 30,000/. would have been an establish- 
 ment for a son, or a portion for a daughter. When the sum was 
 mentioned, he was surprised; he had never contemplated such a 
 treasure. That must have been the case with many persons who had 
 timber almost useless on their estates ; mauy persons knowing the 
 value of the article have been induced, not to cut down their woods, 
 but to thin them ; to put them into that course which Mr. Harvey 
 and the other witnesses have described, which produces a liberal
 
 40 
 
 supply for the year, and can continue the supply to an undefined 
 extent of time. 
 
 Mr. Harvey says we shall produce timber not large, because I call 
 that large timber, which, to judge of it, (when it ceases growing I do 
 not know,) ought to be at least five or six hundred years old ; per- 
 haps that may be exhausted in my time; but we shall produce 
 abundance of timber fit for the highest purposes of ship-building ; 
 he has no doubt of being able to supply it in any quantity proposed 
 to him. So they who have visited Kent and Sussex, and those who 
 have been through the other counties, all concur in the same decla- 
 ration, that there is plenty existing, that there is plenty to be brought 
 forward, that nothing but the want of stimulus and price can ope- 
 rate to prevent them from bringing it to market when really called 
 for. The evidence of plenty which we can give cannot be defini- 
 tive : we cannot send commissioners to view every estate, and see 
 what quantity each will produce. If that could be done, I have not 
 a doubt the result would astonish all mankind. The casual observ- 
 ation made by witnesses we have called, and that extending to a feu- 
 counties, and excluding many in the north of great importance, is, 
 that there are abundant supplies of timber; there are woods of 
 twelve miles in extent, of which we take no account ; there are 
 woods coming forward on which we do not calculate ; but looking 
 at this nobleman's and that gentleman's estate, not speaking of those 
 undefined masses which the witnesses describe, such as twelve miles, 
 or an unestimated portion of land, in extent ; not speaking of Lord 
 Bagot's woods, which his own steward did not pretend to define, when 
 he spoke of cutting 20OO loads in Stafford shire, and 250 in Wales, 
 this year, excluding these, there is an abundant supply. 
 
 Sir; I have here a pile of correspondence with a contractor who is 
 coquetting with the Board, and chusing to say, " Oh, I shall have 
 an amazing difficulty in completing my contract : and really if a 
 peace comes, it is the most alarming thing in the world ; for then I 
 shall be a loser the bark will not be so valuable as it has been; and 
 you do not know the loss I shall have on that score ; you cannot ap- 
 prehend the difficulties I shall have in going about the country to 
 look for timber : I wish you would relieve me from my contract in 
 some way." " Ay," says the office, we will pay you more money, 
 and faster, and do a great many other things for you ; and we now 
 press you to go on with a further contract; will you do it or not?" 
 When this peace is realised, this gentleman who has been coquetting 
 this way through a number of preceding months, stating all these 
 difficulties, comes to the point, and says, " \\e now beg to state our 
 readiness to supply the 2O,000 loads of oak timber, thick stuff', and 
 plank." This is a letter delivered under an order of the Committee ; 
 it is Mr. Bowsher's concluding letter, after his coquetting from 
 December J812 down to April 1814. 
 
 Sir; this gentleman, and those who are concerned with him, have 
 gained the ear of government, and in the contracts have always had 
 the preference in all ways, and to all intents and purposes; we cau-
 
 41 
 
 not, therefore, at all wouder at his representing timber as scarce ; and 
 that we have some difficulty in extracting from a witness connected with 
 him a confession that they go out with their eyes shut ; that they cannot 
 find their way to Limehouse to purchase timber ; that they cannot open 
 their eyes to the newspapers, to see advertisements of sales of timber, 
 before masters in chancery, and by auctioneers ; that they can see no- 
 thing, at least nothing which they can relate in this place. But it is 
 through the interested clamour of these persons that an apprehension of 
 a scarcity has arisen, and continues to be diffused. Every Englishman 
 who reflects on the means of maintaining that arm of our strength, 
 the navy, if he is told there is something in nature, or some political 
 cause, which may produce, at some future time, a want of those 
 means, is alarmed on the subject; and therefore it is these prophets of 
 evil as to the future, and these assertors of it as to the present, gain 
 a ready belief. Nothing is so easy as to make the assertion, and 
 then pointing to the rise of prices, to ask, is not that a proof of 
 scarcity ? I answer, no ; the difference in the prices of transport, the 
 difference of taxation as affecting those wh& grow timber, every ex- 
 trinsic circumstance connected with the article, shews the real origin 
 of the advanced prices which are relied on. I say there is no proof 
 of any thing like an actual scarcity, though these gentlemen choose 
 to assert it, nor any reason to apprehend a scarcity in future, 
 although these prognosticators fancy they foresee it. 
 
 Sir ; I know that in the course of this inquiry questions have been 
 pressed to the utmost extent upon this subject; and it has been said, 
 lake the greatest year of war-building and of commercial building, 
 and suppose the same rate of building to go on for the next twenty 
 years, do you apprehend there would be then a scarcity? Even 
 that question has been answered : No ; with the proper encourage- 
 ment given to our natural trade, we have no doubt the supply would 
 be adequate to the demand ; and every person in a situation to profit 
 by that encouragement will bring their timber to market, and conti- 
 nue its growth, being certain of its consumption, and of a profit to 
 be made by it. 
 
 Sir; I have noticed the number of acres which one of the wit- 
 nesses has pointed to as having been planted, and the number of 
 trees which have been cut down, to compensate for those which have 
 been taken away, and the great efforts that are making throughout 
 the country to continue the supply of timber, so as to meet every 
 probable extent of demand. That this care has been fully and ade- 
 quately taken, appears from the whole course of the evidence. The 
 testimony of Mr. Major Bull, on the home-counties, has been parti- 
 cularly pointed out to me. He carries his observations to Hamp- 
 shire and Berkshire, and he makes this proposition quite clear, that 
 every care is taken to make the supply equal to the demand, and 
 that every day shews an increasing attention to the subject ; his evi- 
 dence proves, that old land will not betaken out of timber in order 
 to be made pasture, because it is not so profitable, not so wise a way 
 of disposing of land, nor so sure to produce an ultimately beneficial 
 
 G
 
 42 
 
 result, as the laying of it out to timber. I know in this I meet the 
 assertion of these critics again ; I know we are told, that no tree 
 ought to be planted on land that is not worth 20.?. an acre ; and 
 that if you take 2Os. a year and add it together for a hundred years, 
 and continue to get compound interest upon it every year, it will 
 amount to a large sum of money. 
 
 Sir ; I never trouble my head with these fopperies, and therefore I 
 cannot pretend to answer the critics in their own way ; however, it 
 seems the result is, that cut down your timber at the end of the 
 term, and you will find your profit less by lOQOl. upon the acre. 
 For the purpose of instructing young gentlemen, nothing can be 
 more proper than to set them upon making calculations of this kind. 
 I remember being very much amused when I was a boy, by a calcu- 
 lation, I believe Dr. Price was the author of it, that a single farthing 
 if it were laid by at compound interest, I don't know whether 
 from Noah's flood or the birth of our Saviour, would have pro- 
 duced a piece of gold larger than the whole earth. But can you lay 
 out a farthing at compound interest, or at any interest ? Can you lay 
 out a pound at compound interest in this way ? There are no means 
 within the power of man of doing so ; the minute fractions cannot 
 be brought to contribute, there is no public fund in which you can 
 vest your money without expense, and which will afford you the 
 facility of reinvesting it the moment it conies to hand, which will re- 
 gularly return .5 per cent. If you take that interest from a private 
 borrower, you take it with all its disadvantages ; you cannot make 
 more of it than a speculative contract, ending in no certainty ; you 
 cannot, without care, and risk of loss, and expense, and delay, make 
 even so much; and any one of Ihese destroys the problem. But 
 while it is proved that wood, which grows tranquilly, produces a 
 certain revenue in the way of loppings and thinnings, accumulates 
 without interruption or chance of detect, and will produce in the end 
 a certain beneficial result, it is asserted, the other mode of occupy- 
 ing land is to be preferred upon common principles of calculation. 
 Surely those principles never would serve as guides to those who 
 pretend to conduct themselves by a general observation of the 
 course of human affairs, which is alone of any utility in the conduct 
 of human life. Even if this calculation of expected profit, from 
 making all mankind usurers instead of agriculturists, were true, and 
 capable of being realized to the extent that is stated, still, according 
 to the evidence we have before us, and I am glad we have such evi- 
 dence, the advantage would be considerably in favour of the grower 
 of wood. It is demonstrated by the evidence of Mr. Harvey, and 
 by a calculation made by Mr. Thomas Alexander, that such a 
 result is not merely possible, but absolutely probable, and indeed 
 almost certain. Mr. Alexander was the first witness examined, a 
 young man only twenty years of age; he was a good deal quarrelled 
 with for his evidence, which was thought presumptuous in such a 
 youth, as where he spoke of measuring a tree by his eye, and deter- 
 mining it twenty years' growth, he who could not know what the state
 
 43 
 
 of a tree was twenty years ago. If that had been stated as a sepa- 
 rate fact, I should myself have disapproved of such evidence ; but 
 his means of knowledge are his experience, derived from an obser- 
 vation of the appearance of trees whose growth during a certain pe- 
 riod has been ascertained. Mr. Alexander, from accurate observa- 
 tion, pronounced, that the profit arising from wood-land at the end 
 of every thirty-five years, including the annual loppings, amounted 
 to a sum equal to 25/. per annum, per acre. This was considered 
 prodigious; a report of the committee of woods and forests was re- 
 ferred to, where it is stated, that eighty-five trees, of one hundred 
 and eight cubical feet of timber in each, were found upon a single 
 acre in Lord Bagot's woods, which cut down at the same time, 
 would produce a sum total equal to 25/. per annum, per acre, 
 reckoned as having stood eighty-five years : the steward, however, 
 told us he could not be certain that eighty-five was the term ; but 
 taking it at the utmost, that it was a hundred and twenty. [Com- 
 mittee. Two or three hundred]. 
 
 Mr. Adolphus. Mr. Harvey stated that, speaking with reserve, 
 under the opportunities of observation which he himself had pos- 
 sessed ; but he added, that upon his lordship's estates in Wales, tim- 
 ber increased twice as fast as upon his estates in Staffordshire. In 
 Essex and Kent, which are oak-growing counties, we know that the 
 increase is more rapid than in others ; and the attention of Mr. 
 Alexander was probably directed to those counties. Then where 
 is the prodigy ? The acre can contain the number of trees; and that 
 a tree grows to the size of a hundred and eight square feet in a hun- 
 dred years, has been proved in evidence various ways. If a tree 
 acquires a certain size in forty or fifty years, and enlarges afterward 
 in a rapidly increasing proportion, we can ascertain at what time it 
 must get to the extent of a hundred and eight square feet. I intro- 
 duce this to make out Mr. Alexander's proposition, that 15l. per 
 annum per acre is a profit which can be obtained, exclusive of the 
 periodical produce of lopping and thinning. 
 
 Then, Sir, if this he the state of the case, what doubt can there be 
 that even a prudent economy suggests the advantage of planting a 
 fair proportion of land in limber? It would be absurd to say, in 
 reply to this argument, " therefore all land should be so planted/'' 
 It is absurd to say, that that which is the best, should alone be done; 
 something must be clone with a view to immediate profit, and some- 
 thing with a view to that which is more remote. But as to the 
 growth of timber, there are motives which have always operated in 
 this country, quite independent of arithmetical calculation. A gen- 
 tleman wants shelter to his estate, he has motives connected with 
 building-contracts, and therefore he plants trees; the nature of his 
 agreements with his tenants induces him to protect the trees in the 
 hedge-rows ; he has admired them for the beauty of their appearance 
 on other estates, and therefore he plants trees upon his own; but all 
 looking ultimately to that day when the fall of the timber must come, 
 console themselves for their present expenditure by the considera-
 
 44 
 
 lien, that they are laying up a benefit for their families, equal to an 
 immediate revenue of between twenty and thirty pounds an acre; that 
 while they are adorning their estates with a number of stately trees, 
 they are raiding a produce which, at the end of a hundred years, 
 their descendants may sell for a large sum of money, without them- 
 selves being injured as it grew toward maturity. 
 
 1 know, Sir, that that which has once obtained a certain height in 
 estimation, if it recedes in a considerable degree, becomes despised 
 in proportion to its depression. Tf the landed interest of this coun- 
 try have been accustomed to look to timber as the means of pro- 
 ducing so much per acre, and they see that by the course of public 
 affairs such a produce can no longer be rendered valuable, there is a 
 feeling in the public mind which leads to a contempt of that which 
 ce;ises to be protected; and so by removing ship-building from this 
 country, gentlemen may be induced to neglect the cultivation of oak 
 timber, and a real scarcity will be felt, where the subject of appre- 
 hension at present is only a fictitious one. 
 
 If if is conceded that Great Britain should possess within herself 
 the instruments of her own security and defence, the growth of oak 
 limber oiiirht to be promoted by all rational means. The only ra- 
 tional means are, to supply a market where it will find a constant 
 sale, for to that alone will the current of human opinion direct itself. 
 Is there a scarcity? the way to induce people to remove it is, to 
 shew a constant demand and a certain profit. Is there not a scarcity, 
 but only an unfounded and frivolous alarm spread by interested or 
 uninformed per-ons? the only way to appease alarm is to remove the 
 causes which pi event people from keeping up the supply, encouraging 
 them to produce largely, by offering to buy liberally. 
 
 This, ir, applies with all its strength to the subject before us. 
 We are taught to believe, that the building of India shipping is the 
 support of the great establishments upon the Thames, and in that 
 shipping is consumed, both in time of war and peace, a consider- 
 able portion of the great trees produced in the country ; and the 
 certainty of having that produce to work upon, and that demand 
 of India shipping to supply, has enabled those establishments to 
 rear and keep together a large number of artificers, who have been 
 at the command of government, whenever government, from the 
 urgency of the public service, has wanted their assistance. The 
 country gentleman has been induced to husband the timber which 
 lie possessed, and to secure the possession of more, by the certainty 
 that this resource would not be struck away from him, and that 
 his heirs would continue to enjoy the benefit of it. These motives 
 and these hopes must fail, if the sale of great oak timber ceases to 
 be one of those objects, about which the commerce of the country- 
 is to be employed. These encouragements, to which I have ad- 
 verted, and these certainties, are the best means, I would say the 
 only means, of insuring that constant supply which alone can give 
 security to the nation. What may be the effect of a substituted 
 navy, commercial or military, for the navy, in both kinds, which we
 
 45 
 
 at present possess, I cannot venture to describe ; upon the produc- 
 tion of large oak trees, it is not difficult to anticipate what it must 
 be. For although it may have been said, during this inquiry, that 
 there is a time at which a tree ceases to be profitable according to 
 its growth, still, I believe, they who view produce of this kind in 
 the way that good sense teaches them to view it in, as bottomed 
 upon the experience of all time, will be fully convinced, that small 
 enterprises, and little inducements of this species, although they 
 may occupy the attention of the tradesman, and furnish a subject 
 of calculation to the arithmetician, never did and never can occupy 
 the attention of the great mass of landholders, who consider the 
 growth of timber as much an object gratifying to their pride as 
 conducive to profit. That is not the way in which great supplies 
 can be produced, nor in which persons can be induced to exert 
 themselves for the production of any thing that may be of great na- 
 tional benefit; all the feelings of the mind must be brought into 
 play, to inspire us with patience to wait the time necessary to bring 
 forward great results ; and we must be convinced that, at the end 
 of that time, it will be found we have not been negligent of our in- 
 terest, although we may not have pursued it with all that accuracy 
 which the mere calculator would shew we might have done. If 
 there is a certainty of a good general result, there will be the cer- 
 tainty of a good production ; nothing less than that will ever cause 
 persons to begin plantations, of which they know they cannot 
 themselves immediately reap the profit. 
 
 With regard to the question, how far a restriction should be im- 
 posed upon the introduction of India-built shipping, as a question 
 between this country and her foreign possessions, I hardly dare 
 say much in the way of summing up. That the governing state, 
 for, in relation to India, Great Britain can hardly be termed the 
 parent state, should be dependant upon a colony for any one article 
 that is essential to her prosperity, or necessary for her safety, has 
 been treated in former times as a monstrous state of things. Should 
 that be the ultimate effect of the measure proposed, I cannot hesi- 
 tate to say, it would be a fatal state of things. I am very averse 
 to enter into a large course of political discussion upon occasions of 
 this nature. 1 am not going to say any thing of the restraints that 
 ought or ought not to be laid upon colonists, in the exercise of 
 their industry and ingenuity ; this is not the time and place, and I 
 am not the person in my professional capacity to make such ob- 
 servations. With respect to the production of those things, which 
 are vitally necessary to the empire itself, I think this is at least an 
 alarming proposition, and one which, combining itself, as it must, 
 with the statements that are to be found in this case, ought to in- 
 duce all who are interested in the welfare of the empire, to consider 
 seriously, before they occasion such a removal of the building of 
 the larger class, even of mercantile shipping, not to mention the 
 connexion that has with the navy of the country. 
 
 It will be said, the government yards will always be adequate to
 
 the purposes of the latter. Physically they may, by the care of 
 the government forests, and by retaining of workmen, be able to 
 produce a navy. But where will be the enterprising spirit which 
 interests so many in the manufacture of shipping, which makes 
 them go hand and heart in every work which the necessities of the 
 state demand, as well as the views of private individuals? Where 
 will be the men who have been, during a time of peace, handling 
 those tools, and taking a part in those operations, which are neces- 
 sary to produce a great ship? They will be wanting; nor can any 
 efforts of government supply them upon the spur of a moment, to 
 meet the unexpected designs or exertions of an enemy. 
 
 These, Sir, are the observations which, with all proper respect, I 
 make bold to press upon your attention. In the course of my ob- 
 servations upon the evidence, I have endeavoured to present to 
 your attention every thing which occurs to me as being material in 
 the present case. I know I have trespassed largely upon your pa- 
 tience; I know I have wanted that which made the charm of my 
 learned friend, Mr. Harrison's, opening, that compression and con- 
 ciseness which can alone make a speech agreeable to those who 
 have to hear it; but the different nature of my task must account 
 for some portion of the difference in our addresses. If I have 
 touched any thing erroneously, I hope I shall not suffer in the 
 favorable opinion of those who have heard me ; my error has been 
 that of my understanding, and not of my intention ; and 1 know 
 when my learned friend comes to reply, every error of this kind 
 will be set right, and if any thing has escaped me, the deficiency 
 will be made up by his observations. 
 
 I am sure this case merits all the discussion it has received ; and, 
 judging of the future from what I have seen of the past, I am 
 equally confident that no degree of attention will be withheld from 
 it, which shall lead to the just result. A just result is all that my 
 clients want ; and we sanguinely hope that will appear to be the 
 just result which is the favourable one to our pretensions and our 
 interests. 
 
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